# Writing Course



## xxyesenia25 (Jun 29, 2016)

I was wondering if you guys took some sort of writing class to write? If you did, do you think it helped? I am currently writing a story and got curious for writing courses and if you guys took any? Thank you for your time!


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 29, 2016)

I took this class, quite literally. I mean I was in that lecture and you might be able to hear my voice.






I'm the dude that says something about meandering in relation discovery writing. Yeah, I'm practically famous.


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## xxyesenia25 (Jun 29, 2016)

Now I can say I know someone famous! Thank you for sharing this really appreciate any help. 


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jun 29, 2016)

I've never taken any writing courses; I had to learn almost everything the hard way!


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## Penpilot (Jun 29, 2016)

I've taken some writing courses. I learned a lot, but nothing I couldn't learn on my own from just writing. And most of what I learned didn't necessarily relate to the mechanics of writing.

The first writing course I took, I took in college. The way the course worked was we each brought a three-page piece to class every other week and read it aloud. Through happenstance, I happened to end up being the first student of the semester to read what they wrote while the whole class stared and listened. 

Lesson learned? You can't be so afraid to put yourself out there, and if you do, rare will anyone laugh at you because they're all in the same boat. 

I found the usefulness of the class depended quite a lot on the other students. Get a bunch of thoughtful people and things can be fantastic. Get a bunch of thoughtless people, who only like to hear themselves yap, then things don't go so well. 

I've told this story before, but one time, a student was so relentlessly harsh in their critique of another, they almost brought the other student to tears. And that first student really didn't give a shit. F--k people like that.


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## skip.knox (Jun 29, 2016)

The advantage of a writing course is that it makes you write and then gives you feedback. You can do this on your own, of course, but there is no one cracking the whip or setting the expectation to produce N pages a session, so slacking off is more likely, and the quality of the feedback you get is much more hit and miss. Sturgeon's 70% Law applies here.

The advantage is also the risk. If you are a writer unaccustomed to getting harsh critiques, a writing course can be pretty hellish. This may make you stronger, but it can also drive some hopeful writers off writing altogether. The hard core corps will naturally say if you can be driven off, then you should be, but others take a more forgiving view.

Like all education, you will get more out of it if you put more into it. It's not going to _make_ you a better writer, it will only provide an environment in which you may perhaps make yourself a better writer.


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## xxyesenia25 (Jun 29, 2016)

Thank you everyone for your words. I think I will hold off on taking any courses and concentrate on writing as much as I can. 


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## Incanus (Jun 29, 2016)

Ooh, hey, what's Sturgeon's 70% law?  And would that be Theodore?


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## Demesnedenoir (Jun 29, 2016)

Writing classes are hit and miss, mine missed bad enough I never took another, I skipped out on a chance at the Iowa Writers Workshop... foolish in hindsight but I was ed burnt out, and my classes to that point were just that lame. I'm sure the good ones are worth it, but, there are probably more worthless than worthwhile courses, depending on where you are with your writing of course.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jun 29, 2016)

I've gotten so far on my own I don't know if a writing course would do me any good. What I really need to be learning more about is the publishing process.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 29, 2016)

I've never taken a writing course. I guess I like to do things the hard way...by stumbling a whole lot. They say it takes a million words to get proficient...it took me more than 3mil. Meh. Done now...

Writing courses can be really helpful, but the thing that helped me most was reading for other new writers. After reading thirty or forty weak manuscripts...you can't stand to read your own weak writing, and things certainly change...quickly. The more you can work with other writers and get a feel for what kinds of told folks use, what works, what doesn't, (and be reading that whole time, remember), the quicker you can sort of "jump the line" and start getting to the good stuff--the real understanding of what makes a novel really snag a reader and what's just fluff or ho-hum. 

I was thinking about taking some writing courses, or even maybe giving a college course a try...but the thing is, I feel like I might be way too familiar with all the things I'd be "taught" and still come out of it with the same problems--how to actually DO the writing I'm trying to do. 

See, I've read a lot of okay books that had GREAT concepts. Most of the time, when people say they didn't like a manuscript, they aren't saying, "I didn't like how the MC lied to her best friend and it got him killed." Sure, they may HATE that that happened, but mostly, what they disliked, was the execution of a concept. Over and over, people say, "Good concept, but the execution wasn't where it needed to be." I'm not sure I've ever heard of a class teaching execution. They have you read things, learn about symbolism, foreshadowing, outlining, creating plots/ mysteries, but I've never (even in Sanderson's lectures) really heard of someone getting to the nitty-gritty of HOW to make a story really sparkle and captivate an audience. Classes tend to focus on the hard facts. Grammar. Sentence structure. What a 3D character needs. Etc. But the thing that makes folks fall in love with books isn't any of those things. I mean, sure those are important, but they're the tip of the writing iceberg. The thing you need is voice, cleverness, and luck. And that stuff is damn hard to teach. 

As a newer writer, I think the best thing you can do is trade work with some people you really like, trust, and share a goal with. If you're all working toward the same kind of quality, you'll be able to push each other, motivate each other, and deal out the harsh truth in a respectful and encouraging way. I've been really lucky to have the partners I've had. I'd definitely recommend this as a great (and free) way to improve rapidly. But if you're more suited to a classroom than long phone calls and huge emails and reading the same chapter multiple times for a friend, then a class might not be a bad idea. Just try to get an idea ahead of time what you're hoping to get out of it. And remember, there's more than one way to skin a cat...or write a story. So folks like to pretend that their way is the only option, and simply put, what works for one person isn't necessarily going to work for another. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, and while I'd like to say we can overcome all that shit and just be great with practice, the truth for me, is that my weaknesses have been really hard to mitigate. So, I rely heavily on people I think are super smart and honest, and I trust to always have my back.

Find your strengths, take some risks, and surround yourself with friends who aren't afraid to give you the real truth. That doesn't mean accept all negative feedback as honesty, because there is a lot of bitterness and jealousy floating around in this industry. But once you find someone to trust, you'll know. Let that person tell you what they love about your work, and believe them. Embrace that positive feedback and repeat it as much as you can. 

Best wishes!


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## Demesnedenoir (Jun 29, 2016)

Last few lectures by Sanderson @ BYU go into some publishing info.


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## skip.knox (Jun 30, 2016)

What is Sturgeon's 70% Law? I confess to name dropping. Yes, that's Theodore Sturgeon. 

I had heard a version, which I have repeated numerous times. But this time, given this august audience, I figured I'd better do some fact checking. One cannot do better than James Gunn, so I present that, herewith. You will note the adjustment in the percentage.

"When people talk about the mystery novel," Ted said, as I remember, "they mention The Maltese Falcon and The Big Sleep. When they talk about the western, they say there's The Way West and Shane. But when they talk about science fiction, they call it 'that Buck Rogers stuff,' and they say 'ninety percent of science fiction is crud.' Well, they're right. Ninety percent of science fiction is crud. But then ninety percent of everything is crud, and it's the ten percent that isn't crud that is important. and the ten percent of science fiction that isn't crud is as good as or better than anything being written anywhere."

For Gunn's somewhat longer account, read the original:
http://www.physics.emory.edu/faculty/weeks//misc/slaw.html


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 30, 2016)

Hello Xyesenia, and first of all Welcome to Mythic Scribes!

In answer to your question, I want to say that I have never taken a Writing Course in my life. For writing, I think that the best path is to read various authors so you develop a larger vocabulary and a better ability to command the language in question. It's also necessary to actually practice your writing and narrating abilities (I recommend starting with short and simple stories), so you will gradually develop your own voice and style.

You will discover what style, genre and length of stories is best for you, but please keep in mind that loads of discipline, patience and especially a lot of love for your stories is necessary.

It takes a million written words to get proficient? That's not true. Even if you hit a Tennis ball with a racket a million times, it does not mean that you will become as good as famous Tennis players out there. When somebody asks advice about things like this, people rarely mention that elements like natural talent and passion are crucial.

I believe that the most important thing to become a great writer/storyteller is to find... the sparks, the moment when a story really ignites a fire inside of you and then all magic starts to happen. A person can have perfect writing skills, but without a great story to tell there will be nothing special taking place.

Getting and accepting critique from others is useful, but only if it comes from the right people.

Please do not try to become perfect in writing. You do need to develop good writing and language skills, but the best advice that I can give you is to find (or maybe they will find you!) the best stories for you to tell.

I wish you the best in your quest!


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## Holoman (Jun 30, 2016)

I took a free course with the Open Uni, it was ok, but not great. You get what you pay for I guess.

I feel too old to do a writing course now, plus I worry it will suck the fun out of it. I have tried to learn writing how I learn other things, first reading books about it, then having a go at it myself, and then reading other author's work and seeing how they do things.

Some of the books I read are Dwight Swain's _The Selling Writer_, and a couple from the _Write Great Fiction_ series, Plot and Characters.

I think it's important to learn some of the theory of story making and try writing yourself before you start reading other peoples work, because it gave me a whole new perspective when reading and I saw how clever authors were being, and also identified areas were I thought they hadn't done so well but could figure out why I thought that.


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## Russ (Jun 30, 2016)

It is kind of amusing to see people who have never taken a writing class comment on their utility.

My wife and I have both taken writing classes, both good and bad, and we both would tell you that good ones are worth their weight in gold for a number of reasons.  Bad ones, not so much.  Bear with me for a longer than average post while I try to talk about why the classes can be valuable, sometimes for obvious reasons, sometimes for not so obvious reasons.

First thing I would say to people before they take writing classes is that  you need to know yourself as a learner and a writer first.  Some people learn better from just reading books, some people do better when there is course, instructor, lectures and fellow students to interact with.  If you are the type of person that learns well in a classroom environment with a structure curricula then a writing class or course may be very useful to you.  

You also need to know yourself to know what level or type of course you need.  My wife and I started taking some basic courses from a local company, and in due time, my wife went on to get her Masters in Genre Fiction, and I went on to teach at that program.  You don't want to get into a course that is either too far ahead, or two far behind your level.  I saw students in courses that were either not ready yet for that work, or were doing the work in their sleep because it was too easy.  Unless you are chasing the credential taking a course that does not challenge you is just a waste of time.

You also have to know how serious you are about writing as a career.  My wife has know for a long time she wants to make her living writing fiction, so investing the time and money to get her masters made sense.  I have never had that same career focus on writing, so for me, 4-6 day courses or twice a week for eight weeks, or just a weekend seminar has worked out fine.

One of the non-obvious advantages of taking writing courses is the people that you meet and become friends with.  I took two substantial writing courses with top notch spec pic authors and became friends with them, and have remained friends for many years.  I had dinner with one of them a few weeks ago (I think I took the course maybe 15 years ago) and this chap generously spent a couple of hours giving us advice on marketing my wife's debut novel.  My wife met her long time writing mentor while she was studying for her masters, and they remain in touch to this day, and will be getting together next week in NYC.  Many of the people we both met through that masters program remain our livelong friends and they have spread out through the publishing industry and have become people we both trust and rely on for help in the writing/publishing field.  The internet is a fine way to meet people, but meeting folks face to face in a course can build an even better bond.

To my mind, unless you have significant difficulty functioning socially, or you already have all the answers, if you can afford a good course and have some near you I would commend anyone to a good writing course.  Your writing can take revolutionary steps forward when you hear ideas and learn concepts others are using to make their writing better.  And this goes for very successful writers as well.  You will see lots of NYT bestselling writers crammed in to hear Steve Berry talk about how to use "psychic distance" to make your books more powerful, or Donald Mass talk about the latest scientific research  in what makes readers enjoy fiction at Thrillerfest for example.

Courses with good instructors are an effective way to learn no matter what field you are in.  There is no reason to believe writing is any different.  If you are serious about becoming a better writer you really should consider taking courses as one way of doing that.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 30, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I've gotten so far on my own I don't know if a writing course would do me any good. What I really need to be learning more about is the publishing process.



The Sanderson course does quite well in discussing the publishing process. That class helped catalyze how I think about approaching a story as well. It was phenomenal. Listen to the lecture linked above and then the rest as they arrive weekly.


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## Heliotrope (Jun 30, 2016)

Knowledge = Power 

I'm with Russ and Skip on this one. I believe that educating yourself is always a good idea, and if you want to get to the next level professional help is your best bet. I also believe what Skip is saying about the 90% rule. Some courses will suck and not be what you need. Others will be "worth their weight in gold" as Russ has said. 



Brian Scott Allen said:


> It was phenomenal. .


 - Brian Scott Allan 

^^^ Sentiments my experience will most of the writing courses I have taken. I have a Masters degree in English Lit, where I was forced to learn about the nuts and bolts of good Literature and how it is "done" and has been done since the first time humanity decided to write down stories. I absolutely do not believe that this was wasted time. I now teach English Lit and attend Writer's festivals/conferences yearly in order to brush up on what is new out there are far as technique and to see what the publishers are looking for, as well as to take back anything I've learned back to my classes and to teach other teachers who are teaching writing. 

Because of my firm belief in knowledge is power I also attend a writing class every year at my local University, and this year I have some time off (my daughter has developmental issues) and so will be taking a part time online creative writing program. Like others have said, some of these courses have been bogus. Others have been invaluable. 

When I'm not doing course work I'm reading craft books, listening to Pod casts, watching Videos like the one Brian Scott Allan posted, and yes.... reading, reading, reading, reading... But NOT just reading for fun. Reading to analyze what the author is doing. 

And writing. Writing writing writing. Though not as much as I would like right now, sadly  

Neil Gaiman on writing comics (but I think it applies): 

"_You'll do best if you realize that there is a lot to know. Most bad comics are written by people who don't know that there is anything to learn_... (Many of them were written by writers who are successful in other fields.) Having something to say is fairly essential, too. "

*Later Edit: 

" I think the best thing you can do is trade work with some people you really like, trust, and share a goal with. If you're all working toward the same kind of quality, you'll be able to push each other, motivate each other, and deal out the harsh truth in a respectful and encouraging way." - Caged Maiden 

I agree with CM on this point 100%. It doesn't matter how smart you are, or how talented you are, or how inspired you are.... you need someone you can trust to give you feedback on your stuff. Even the pros have early readers and editors who read their stuff for them and tell them when something is working and something isn't working. Try to find a network of people you can trust who will be honest, but also understand what your goals are. People who are OK having discussions about what you are 'trying' to say or do, so they can help you achieve that vision. People who are OK with reading and re-reading the same scene over and over until you get it right. Poeple who can boost your confidence and force you to be brave and honest with yourself.


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## Heliotrope (Jun 30, 2016)

For very quick and free information, these podcasts are great. I usually listen to them when I'm doing my chores, tidying up, or getting ready in the morning. 

http://www.writingexcuses.com


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## Demesnedenoir (Jun 30, 2016)

I wouldn't have been thrilled to pay for Sanderson's course, but as free lectures they are worth every penny, heh heh. But again this depends on where you are at in your writing. So much of Sanderson's lectures felt like old hat or 100 level stuff, but then I am old LOL, but I can imagine that at a more youthful stage I would've appreciated his story stuff more. When watching the lectures I tended to have an "ok, but..." whenever he talked about story. The publishing info was more interesting to me.

What in particular struck you with his story notions?

In my previous post I also didn't mention screenwriting courses at UCLA... those were worth it, because I did skip some of the intro level stuff... those would've been pointless because I didn't need them. But the upper level stuff, where you're also working with active pro screenwriters, was good stuff.



Brian Scott Allen said:


> The Sanderson course does quite well in discussing the publishing process. That class helped catalyze how I think about approaching a story as well. It was phenomenal. Listen to the lecture linked above and then the rest as they arrive weekly.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 30, 2016)

Demesnedenoir said:


> I wouldn't have been thrilled to pay for Sanderson's course, but as free lectures they are worth every penny, heh heh. But again this depends on where you are at in your writing. So much of Sanderson's lectures felt like old hat or 100 level stuff, but then I am old LOL, but I can imagine that at a more youthful stage I would've appreciated his story stuff more. When watching the lectures I tended to have an "ok, but..." whenever he talked about story. The publishing info was more interesting to me.
> 
> What in particular struck you with his story notions?
> 
> In my previous post I also didn't mention screenwriting courses at UCLA... those were worth it, because I did skip some of the intro level stuff... those would've been pointless because I didn't need them. But the upper level stuff, where you're also working with active pro screenwriters, was good stuff.



A lot of the concepts I heard about and read about started to "click" when I heard it from him. I'm not sure why. But things like making strong prose and how to do it and how to conceptualize show v tel in particular (pyramid of abstraction). He also helped me realize the power of things like the three act structure and so forth. Although the the three act thing may have been from a guest lecturer.


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## skip.knox (Jun 30, 2016)

I have a couple comments regarding the nuts-and-bolts comment from Caged Maiden. She is generally right, though I think she overlooks the feedback part of most writing courses. That's where classes attend more to the how of writing. If you get a professor who writes good comments, that's pure gold.

Most subjects have this dual nature. They teach theory and method, and they teach practicum. Chem classes are more than just lecture, they also have labs. I teach history. If all you did was read history books, I would not be teaching you history. You also have to *write* history. There, my teaching consists of my comments on your essay (note the meaning of that noun--it means "attempt"). I took a grand total of one art class--intro to drawing. There again, we were taught things like composition and even the right way to hold a pencil, but in the end it was just me and an empty sheet of paper. I had to draw and the teacher had to give feedback. 

My other comment is to be prepared for a perhaps unexpected consequence of learning nuts and also bolts. When you learn methodology, you no longer come to the art form with the same sensibilities. You are no longer an innocent reader. I once took a course on music production. The engineer right at the start said it: once you learn how music is produced, you will no longer hear it with the same ears. It didn't ruin music for me, not at all, but it did change how I hear both live and recorded music. The same will apply to other art forms.

In summary I'd say this: go with your gut. If a course--at a university, online, local library, under an oak tree--catches your interest, then go for it. It's an experience, so why avoid it? If it costs money, you'll have to decide whether you want to fork it out. We never really know if we like a car until after we've bought it, anyway.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jun 30, 2016)

He did some work with 3 act as I recall. Everything he said was solid, no doubt about it. And I can see the pyramid of abstraction as being useful. I do get how having a different person tell you something can work wonders. I learned more algebra in one semester with an old nun in college as I did in two years of high school, LOL. Classes that make things click are worth the cash.

In general, for me personally, I've learned more about the fine details of writing from editors (personally and via books... see self-editing for fiction writers) and agents than from other writers... not including screenwriting. When writers instruct they tend to hit the big picture items and gloss over the fine details, this could in part be due to the "artist" inside who doesn't want to stomp on other people's words, or whatever. 

Of course in my opinion, Sanderson's fine details are lacking while his big picture writing is fine, LOL. 



Brian Scott Allen said:


> A lot of the concepts I heard about and read about started to "click" when I heard it from him. I'm not sure why. But things like making strong prose and how to do it and how to conceptualize show v tel in particular (pyramid of abstraction). He also helped me realize the power of things like the three act structure and so forth. Although the the three act thing may have been from a guest lecturer.


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## FifthView (Jun 30, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> Neil Gaiman on writing comics (but I think it applies):
> 
> "_You'll do best if you realize that there is a lot to know. Most bad comics are written by people who don't know that there is anything to learn_... (Many of them were written by writers who are successful in other fields.) Having something to say is fairly essential, too. "



Yeah, I think this applies to many things.  The people who don't realize there is a lot to know almost without exception produce really weak work.  I can look back at my own earliest efforts and see the truth of it.  (You know that stage where inspiration and excitement are so powerful you just_ know _they'll carry you all the way!)  For me, this is evident in my earliest poetry most strongly.

___

As far as Sanderson goes...I think he's a natural teacher, and I've found him to be extremely insightful.  This impression is mostly from his podcasts but also a few YouTube videos I've watched.  I think it helps that he teaches and writes, both.  There are some writers who undoubtedly know a lot but are not in the habit of needing to regularly explain their writing and their reading, and they are not quite as clear and concise, structured, when giving their do's and don't's.  Then again, perhaps it's just Sanderson's general persona, energy, excitement that help the most.

The one thing I find most annoying about him is minor, more like an automatic cringe I experience because I've noticed it now:  It's his "Yep, yep" response to pretty much everything anyone else says during a conversation.  On his podcasts he'll do this.  "Yep, yep" and then sometimes a "but..." when he entirely contradicts or limits or modifies what someone has just said.  Huh?  Hah, I think it's a rhetorical device, something that actually eases conversation and makes him sound very supportive even when he's thinking, "Um, not so much" about whatever's said.  It's a minor thing.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 30, 2016)

FifthView said:


> Yeah, I think this applies to many things.  The people who don't realize there is a lot to know almost without exception produce really weak work.  I can look back at my own earliest efforts and see the truth of it.  (You know that stage where inspiration and excitement are so powerful you just_ know _they'll carry you all the way!)  For me, this is evident in my earliest poetry most strongly.
> 
> ___
> 
> ...



I find the yep yep thing to be more of a tic than anything else. I often find myself saying "Well..." whenever I disagree. I have been trying to cure myself of that particular tic. Although it has lead to some bluntness where I just say "No..." Maybe I oughtta start saying yep more often.


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## FifthView (Jun 30, 2016)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> I find the yep yep thing to be more of a tic than anything else. I often find myself saying "Well..." whenever I disagree. I have been trying to cure myself of that particular tic. Although it has lead to some bluntness where I just say "No..." Maybe I oughtta start saying yep more often.



Often enough, he does agree with whatever's being said.  But sometimes not.  It's "Yep, yep" to either, without distinction.  I've wondered if the subconscious communication is more something like, "Yep, I'm hearing you..." or "Yep, I know what you are saying" than any sign of agreement.


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## Chessie (Jun 30, 2016)

Sanderson's youtube classes helped me immensely when I realized that I wanted to write professionally someday. I'm grateful that the college allows him to upload those on the tube for folks that can't make it to his real class. The way he explains things really works for me and I found his breakdown of descriptive paragraphs super helpful. 

He also writes good books. 

Far as writing classes goes, I took a couple while in college. Truthfully? I think reading in  your genre is really the best way to learn.


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## Chessie (Jun 30, 2016)

Russ said:


> It is kind of amusing to see people who have never taken a writing class comment on their utility.
> 
> My wife and I have both taken writing classes, both good and bad, and we both would tell you that good ones are worth their weight in gold for a number of reasons.  Bad ones, not so much.  Bear with me for a longer than average post while I try to talk about why the classes can be valuable, sometimes for obvious reasons, sometimes for not so obvious reasons.
> 
> ...


+1 I love your post, Russ. Writing classes are valuable for those that do well in classroom settings. Having writing elements broken down for you really, truly helps. I'm that type of learner: academia gets through to me. I need it written on a gigantic chalkboard with examples and homework that drives the point home. But not everyone learns like this, just as you've mentioned, too. 

One thing I wish had been included in the classes I took was reading in your genre. The professors always stressed the point of reading in general, which is good, but reading the types of books you want to write really do the trick. There are genre tropes, reader expectations that professors didn't stress back in the day. Don't know if they do now.

Also...your part in bold is going a bit too far. Like, who wants to make friends when you're a writer?  

I would absolutely, without a doubt, pay for Sanderson's class. Getting feedback from him?! I would seriously go in my pants ya'll.


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 30, 2016)

Russ said:


> It is kind of amusing to see people who have never taken a writing class comment on their utility.



Yeah, and for me it's equally amusing to see people that have never experienced the natural, spiritual and incredibly enjoyable parts of Storytelling talk about theory and learning and all the scientific stuff always, like those were the only things that matter and natural talent would mean nothing.

I have never taken Writing Courses and Workshops and all that, but I have seen my sister take them repeatedly over the years.

She has earned nothing but frustration, confusion and loads of lost money from them. After all, she came to the conclusion that it's better to follow your own creativity and heart just like I was telling her from the start, and she is capable of producing very good short stories and beautiful poems as a result.

I believe that a Writing Course or Workshop with much higher quality would be great, but only for people that feel and work that way with writing and storytelling. If it works for some people like you, great! However, for many others like me it's better to follow the natural methods because that's how we work, feel and live through the creative process.

I know we disagree a lot, but I did not come to this thread in order to start an argument. I decided to post here so Xyesenia (and other new writers with unknown potential that might be reading this) get to see both sides of the coin, not only the learning and theory side. Now it's up to Xyesenia to decide what to do in order to start his or her journey in what we do.

Xyesenia: If you decide that you want to try it my way, I'll tell you something else that I consider very important: The art of imagining and telling stories by means of writing is supposed to be enjoyable, not frustrating. It's something that develops beautifully into an incredible experience, and not something that you have to forcefully grind your way through.

Anyway, only you can decide which way is better for you.


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## La Volpe (Jun 30, 2016)

I have never taken a fiction writing class. Well, I did a Bachelor's Degree in English Lit with creative writing, but it was correspondence, so it's not really the same thing.

So most everything I've learned was done so from videos of lectures, podcasts, books, and websites.



Russ said:


> One of the non-obvious advantages of taking writing courses is the people that you meet and become friends with.  I took two substantial writing courses with top notch spec pic authors and became friends with them, and have remained friends for many years.  I had dinner with one of them a few weeks ago (I think I took the course maybe 15 years ago) and this chap generously spent a couple of hours giving us advice on marketing my wife's debut novel.  My wife met her long time writing mentor while she was studying for her masters, and they remain in touch to this day, and will be getting together next week in NYC.  Many of the people we both met through that masters program remain our livelong friends and they have spread out through the publishing industry and have become people we both trust and rely on for help in the writing/publishing field.  The internet is a fine way to meet people, but meeting folks face to face in a course can build an even better bond.



This. It is incredibly frustrating for me that I'm unable to attend fiction (and specifically spec fiction) writing classes (due to them not existing anywhere near me). While I can get lecture type information and even feedback online, having writer friends is a serious privilege. They can not only read your work with an idea of who you are and what you're trying to say, but I'd think it's also a lot easier to critique when you can discuss this with someone verbally. The only people I can do that with are readers, not writers.

Moreover, having writer friends will do wonders for motivation, throughput, and mood when things go south. And competitive spirit is always a good thing.


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## Chessie (Jun 30, 2016)

Sheilawisz said:


> Yeah, and for me it's equally amusing to see people that have never experienced the natural, spiritual and incredibly enjoyable parts of Storytelling talk about theory and learning and all the scientific stuff always, like those were the only things that matter and natural talent would mean nothing.


Aw, that's not fair. Everyone learns differently, and everyone's experiences are valid to their own processes. If someone is writing a book, they're using their creative side to do so. It doesn't matter _how_ they get to the point of improvement. Experiencing a writing class is completely different than tuning into your creative side. In a classroom, you learn things through structure and examples. You then apply that to your writing process. But if you've never taken a class, then how would you know what that's like? What you can learn? I agree with Russ here. We ALL use our creative side to write a book, but not all of us have taken classes.


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 30, 2016)

Sorry about that, Chessie.

I posted that comment because Russ said that it was amusing to see me talking about this stuff, and I did not like that. If somebody aims that kind of thing at me, I'll have to reply. I am just sharing my feelings and views on writing and narrating stories like everyone else, it's just that my views are very impopular around here.

Like I said before, I do not seek to start an argument. I just want Xyesenia and other new, aspiring authors to consider my natural ways just like they might consider the scientific path.

That's all =)


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## FifthView (Jun 30, 2016)

I don't think enjoyment, intuitive creativity, and spirit are incompatible with learning and theory.

But I do think that learning and theory should be individual, personal pursuits even when pursued within a classroom or workshop environment.

In these considerations, I see an odd relation to Nietzsche.  When trying to peg down his ideas about politics, I find that he negatively criticized pretty much every single political movement or theory he considered.  At best, I've been able to label him a sort of radical libertarian:  He believed that every single individual should set his own values, choose his own course, and overcome the tendency to let others decide these things for him.  But here's the rub:  Nietzsche was obsessed with delivering these ideas to others!  Why? I mean:  If he was so concerned about an individual choosing his own path, why/how could he so strenuously try to show other people a path and lead them down it?


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 30, 2016)

Sheilawisz said:


> Yeah, and for me it's equally amusing to see people that have never experienced the natural, spiritual and incredibly enjoyable parts of Storytelling talk about theory and learning and all the scientific stuff always, like those were the only things that matter and natural talent would mean nothing.
> 
> I have never taken Writing Courses and Workshops and all that, but I have seen my sister take them repeatedly over the years.
> 
> ...



I don't find writing classes and coming at it on your own as being two opposites. They are two sides of the same coin, really. The writing classes can be, and are, particularly helpful in diagnosing problems with a work you are producing. The creative side helps one to expand the scope of the story into something original. Both, I have found, are necessary to be good. The problem with writing classes is discerning which ones will work and which ones will not. Sandersons work particularly well for fantasy and sci-fi writers because that class is geared towards the genre. Whereas, other creative writing courses are more or less focused on "literary fiction" and that can be problematic for a genre writer, such as my self. The question isn't one of intrinsic utility of writing courses but of mindset. Writing courses give tools to write with. Creativity helps us to figure out how to use the tools in perhaps new and unexpected ways. The marriage of those two creates truly memorable works of fiction.


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 30, 2016)

I agree with you, FifthView. It's true that both the learning and natural development aspects are different for every person, and should be very individual pursuits because we all are different individuals.

For me, enjoyment and intuitive creativity are indeed totally incompatible with learning and theory. However, that's just me. I am not strenuously trying to lead Xyesenia down my path, but I have the right to show it to him or her anyway and then it's his or her time to decide what to do in the journey.

Who knows, Xyesenia could be like me.


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## ThinkerX (Jul 1, 2016)

Ok, semi-rural Alaska here.  

Writing classes at the community college are of the technical variety.  Had one of those most of thirty years ago.  

There is a writers group or two in the area, but I have never attended it.  Schedule stuff years ago, other things going on now - like actual writing.  I have seen a few samples of their work.

Not a big one for 'how to write' books either.  Bought maybe two or three of that sort total, and those are mostly thesaurus type books.  (Side note - I do find it annoying just how limited alternate word selections are for some common objects - 'door,' for example.)

I have been writing on and off for better than thirty years, and still have a fair digital pile of my older material.  When I look through that, and compare it with what is recommended in the various threads and articles that get linked to here, I note that apart from grammar issues (usually spelling, no spell check back then), and sometimes a slight tendency towards passive voice, I was pretty much in line with the recommendations even back in those days.


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## Miskatonic (Jul 1, 2016)

With writing classes and books in general I see a lot of repeating of the same ideas that certainly have proven to work consistently over time, yet not anything that I would consider revolutionary tends to pop up. A lot of questions from new writers revolve around the notion of "How do I get people to like my story?". Given the different reader demographics, types of storytelling, and genres, it's really hard to give a solid answer to this question. The pitfall of studying too much and trying to absorb so many different points of view is that you can become almost paralyzed and have no idea how to actually sit down and get to writing. You start to want to nitpick every sentence that comes to mind before it's even written instead of just getting out that crude first draft. 

When all is said and done you need to write so that you have material to analyze. You'll never know what you are doing right or doing wrong if you don't have examples for other people to look at. Actually committing yourself to putting words on paper is probably the biggest obstacle most potential writers face. There are just so many different ways to procrastinate that can be used as seemingly valid excuses because they are indeed going towards the story itself, but if the story is still in your head and not available for other people to read and critique, you haven't actually been doing what makes someone a writer. I am certainly guilty of this and it's a hard habit to break.


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## skip.knox (Jul 1, 2016)

>you can become almost paralyzed
The key word here is "can". Doesn't mean you will. I spent five years in graduate school getting just about every word I wrote critiqued and held to a high standard. I never once felt bewildered or constrained. This was expository writing, not creative, but I did see some of my fellow students intimidated even to the point of quitting over things that I either shrugged off or actively welcomed. I think it's a difference in temperament. If, however, you are uncertain or seeking approval, then the pitfall Miskatonic describes is quite real.


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## FifthView (Jul 1, 2016)

Miskatonic said:


> The pitfall of studying too much and trying to absorb so many different points of view is that you can become almost paralyzed and have no idea how to actually sit down and get to writing. You start to want to nitpick every sentence that comes to mind before it's even written instead of just getting out that crude first draft.
> 
> When all is said and done you need to write so that you have material to analyze. You'll never know what you are doing right or doing wrong if you don't have examples for other people to look at.



I was thinking about something like this yesterday. It's terribly easy, for me at least, to look at something that has been written, edited, and published and detect this or that strategy, the clever wordplay, and to form theories about it.  But sitting down and staring at a blank screen is another story.  Well, ideally it'll become another story. But when those first paragraphs can be written in 100,000 different ways, a moment of paralyzation can occur.

So the trick is to push something out onto paper and turn the latter into the former.  I.e., turn the blank screen into something that can be analyzed.  (By you, first, then maybe for others.)

I'm not sure that studying too much is the culprit, per se.  If you have very limited options because you've not studied much, then you still have a blank screen vs all the books you've ever read.  That can be a really frustrating, paralyzing thing:  Seeing those first paragraphs coming out and they are _nothing_ like all those great books.


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## Russ (Jul 2, 2016)

Sheilawisz said:


> Sorry about that, Chessie.
> 
> I posted that comment because Russ said that it was amusing to see me talking about this stuff, and I did not like that. If somebody aims that kind of thing at me, I'll have to reply. I am just sharing my feelings and views on writing and narrating stories like everyone else, it's just that my views are very impopular around here.
> 
> ...



You really seem a little overly sensitive about this stuff.

Anyways, what you are suggesting is a false dichotomy and misleads, either intentionally or unintentionally.

The topic the OP brought up was writing classes or courses.  You seem to have jumped to the inaccurate conclusion that all classes take some of "scientific" approach, which is simply incorrect.

There are plenty of instructors who teach courses on meditation and writing, spirituality and writing, finding spiritual energy to write and even channelling to write.  There are lots of people out there teaching courses or leading workshops on writing who espouse very similar approaches to the ones you do.



> t's equally amusing to see people that have never experienced the natural, spiritual and incredibly enjoyable parts of Storytelling talk about theory and learning and all the scientific stuff always, like those were the only things that matter and natural talent would mean nothing.



But I am happy to stand by my comment that I find it amusing to see people commenting on courses or classes who have not taken them.  It is about as amusing as suggesting that someone who advocates taking courses has not "experienced the natural, spiritual and incredibly enjoyable parts of Storytelling".  You firstly seem to want to define and explain my experience and build a wall between learning a craft or understanding various academic aspects of storytelling and the spiritual enjoyment of it.  The two (or three or more) are not mutually exclusive like you seem to want them to be.

What would be interesting though is if you could point out to me someplace where I suggested natural talent is irrelevant.


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## Sheilawisz (Jul 2, 2016)

Hello everyone.

Russ: I did not know that there are Courses that focus on the spiritual and enjoyable side of our craft, I accept that. However, Xyesenia asked about _Writing_ Courses and that brings to my mind all the obsession about having perfect grammar, what is the best plot structure, the whole debate about adverbs, the passive voice stuff and so on.

It reminded me strongly of the very negative experiences that my sister suffered at Writing Courses. Please check out Kassan's recent article at the Home Page of Mythic Scribes, which explains pretty well how I feel about this.

Also, please stop calling my personal views and feelings on Storytelling a false dichotomy. I know that I am very unusual, and my stuff may be false to you and others but it's very real and wonderful (not to mention incredibly effective) to me. I know that I am not the only person like this, there are others out there and I want to be ready to help them in case they arrive in our site.

In fact, one of my best friends in Mythic Scribes decided to just abandon the community thanks to the fact that now the site is heavily focused on Publishing and Selling. The heavy Scientific Writing atmosphere also repelled my friend as much as it repels me, and sometimes I ask myself what the hell I am doing here but I want to stay anyway.

In case others like me show up here asking for help, I want to be here for them. I want to show them that there is an alternative to that surgical world in which the only way to become a good author is to learn tons of theory, earn fancy degrees and write a million words before you can produce something good.

I can provide examples of authors that produced great and even historic works without having attended courses, learned all the theory or written a million words. It's real, it can happen.

Just because you do not experience what we experience, it does not mean that it is false.

Stop the _Amusing_ thing, please. Telling somebody that you find them amusing is quite insulting, unless that person is trying to be amusing intentionally. Do not do that again.

No, you never mentioned that natural talent is irrelevant.

However, others have said it and the general atmosphere in the site is that our craft is all about learning theory, calculating everything just right and just keep writing and writing until you become the next global phenomenon. Talent is very rarely mentioned as part of the equation, and that irks me a lot.

Many people (here as well as in other sites) dislike the idea that Talent exists, or they prefer to describe it as unimportant even in case they accept it's real.

Just take a look at This thread right here.

Now, I'll post something to try and offer assistance to people suffering from the Paralysis effect mentioned before in this thread. I hope it can help somebody, but in case anybody thinks that I am wrong, misleading or amusing please do not even reply to me.

When I have difficulty with creating a scene in one of my stories (whether it's the start of the story, or later) What I do is that I concentrate on the scenery, characters and emotions involved instead of how to actually write it. It's like this: Imagine that you are in a movie theater, and your story will be presented to you as a movie.

What do you see in the screen? What do you hear?

In my method, when a scene is giving me trouble I try to see, hear and feel as much as possible of the place and characters involved in that scene. What is my character thinking? What does my character want? What colors are there? Is it day, or night? Is it cold? Is there wind?

Imagine that you are present in the scene, yourself. That you can walk there, and touch, and breath...

I find that this can help a lot to break that paralysis moment, especially for people that really find it difficult to get past that first blank page and get their stories started. You need to get in contact with your story, you need to _feel_ it because the whole process is similar to dancing together or (in the case of great stories) like falling in love.

Also, while you are working do not compare your writing or your story to other, famous great books that you have read. Your story is supposed to be special and unique, because it's your own. It does not matter if it's worse or better than others, what matters is that it will end up being what it is supposed to be.

I wish you the best in your journeys!


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## FifthView (Jul 2, 2016)

Sheilawisz said:


> For me, enjoyment and intuitive creativity are indeed totally incompatible with learning and theory.



On the surface, this seems really odd.  Someone could misinterpret it to mean that you (or anyone who feels the same way) will remain in a perpetual rut, never improving, never understanding her own work (forming theories), etc.

I've been trying to find something Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote that had a major effect on me.  It was something I already believed but hadn't formulated well for myself until I read it in one of his essays.  Essentially, he said that no matter how true or important another's ideas, if we cannot reconcile them to our own understanding then they are useless and might as well be falsehoods; to hell with them.  But the moment we can reconcile them to our own thoughts, so that they become true to us, then they are no longer that other person's ideas—_they are our own_.

That's a paraphrase.  It relates to what I wrote in an earlier comment.  I do believe learning and theory should be individual, personal pursuits even within a classroom or workshop environment.  Each person should weigh whatever knowledge another offers, assess its worth in relation to her own pursuits and goals, and not take what is said at face value as some sort of inviolable doctrine received from an infallible authority.  But also, I think, one should not be afraid of being exposed to that information, because a personal evaluation of it will easily prevent its adoption if it doesn't reconcile with personal pursuits and any adoption automatically transforms it into one's own idea.  It is no longer _his_; it is _mine_.  And I can do with it what I like.

I suspect that you already do this.  Have you learned nothing new in all your visits to Mythic Scribes?  Never been nudged by an idea or had that experience of an _Aha!_ when someone commented on something that tied so well to what you do but described it in a way you'd never before considered—gained insight into your own efforts?  And when you capitalize Storytelling and offer others a glimpse into your own process, you are delivering _theory_.  It's just that these are your own theories that you've been formulating as you advance in your own pursuits.

So I think that when you say that learning and theory are incompatible with enjoyment and intuitive creativity, I think you mean that trying to incorporate what another person says you must do, when those ideas are not in alignment with your own pursuits, is a roadblock for the creative process.  The moment a writer begins to attempt to write by following a template that another gives, out of some belief that that other person's template is some sort of inviolable recipe, all enjoyment and creativity is destroyed.

More generally, returning to the OP's question, I'd say that writing courses can do what you've said in this thread you are doing:



Sheilawisz said:


> I am not strenuously trying to lead Xyesenia down my path, but I have the right to show it to him or her anyway and then it's his or her time to decide what to do in the journey.



A writing course can help to introduce a writer to a toolbox filled with tools that are new for the writer or help the writer come to a better understanding of her own processes.  But they shouldn't be taken if a writer is merely looking for pre-formed templates to be followed without thought.  It's still, and always will be, a personal pursuit.


_Edit:  I wrote the above while you were commenting and hadn't read your comments to Russ._


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## Sheilawisz (Jul 2, 2016)

Hello FifthView.

I see that we are defining learning and theory in different ways. For me, it's like this: In Highschool, I was told that a story was always supposed to have that structure in which the tension rises, reaches a summit and then gradually descends into the ending. That was all, that's what telling stories was supposed to be.

They also spoke a lot about adverbs, and passive voice and how to be perfect... Quite similar to some discussions here in Mythic Scribes.

That's what the _artificial_ learning and theory means to me.

I thought: "Hey, that's not how stories are in my mind! That's not how stories feel in my heart!" And I decided to write and narrate my stories in my own ways, following the path that I created for myself. I have learned and improved loads, yes, but in a natural way. Reading great books from other authors influenced and shaped my style a lot, for example.

Michael Ende and Lewis Carroll in particular are my mentors.

Also, the decent vocabulary and near-natural skills that I have in English took years and years to develop, because my native language is Castilian. Still, I feel that English is always one step ahead of me and I have to keep learning.

I started to write my first ever large, serious Fantasy novel back in 2002. I created and completed it following the methods and style that I developed naturally, and I am very happy that I was not exposed to the Scientific Path back then because it would have derailed me like a train crash.

That way of doing things is simply not for me. Me adopting such method would be like you adopting my _Sudden Lightning Strike Inspiration_ and _Going into the Zone_ stuff. I wish that others could experience what I experience because it's so wonderful to me, but perhaps it would not feel the same to others and I accept that.

My long time in Mythic Scribes has helped me to improve my English a lot, and also it caused me to write ten stories that I deeply love and that I would have never written in case I had never come here. It has also opened my eyes regarding other issues like Autism, but that's all. I felt like an extraterrestrial creature when I arrived, and I still feel quite alien here today.

Yes, I accept that Writing Courses can be beneficial but only for some people. Others will do much better with the natural path. Also a bad kind of Writing Courses can cause more damage than good (like it happened to my sister), so I wanted to let Xyesenia and other new authors to know that it's possible to do well without them.


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 2, 2016)

I'm going to say one more thing about writing classes. I'm about to turn 36, a reasonably intelligent person, and the kind of person who learns really well from lectures, books, or practice. I'm not railing against classroom learning for any reason, but for me, practice and books like "Writing 21st Century Fiction" by Donald Maass have been really helpful. 

Okay, about writing classes, all I was saying, was that it helps to know your goal, when deciding what kind of class works for you, or will benefit you. For instance, I'm sure we could all be better writers if we obtained a masters in English...but that's a heavy commitment for someone who just wants to get more out of their natural talent, right? So, would I suggest a new writer go to college for English? No. Go to college for 4-8 years for something you really want to do for a living, and don't count on writing books to be the big earning potential it might occasionally sound like. It isn't. Not unless you're really lucky. Because pure talent doesn't earn people six-figure advances. 

Okay, so kinds of classes... someone mentioned libraries and under an oak tree, and I'm so much more inclined to say YES to this. Check out some free classes at community centers, some local critique groups or writer clubs. This is really good stuff. If they're at your level of competency, so much the better. If they're haughty and self-important, not so much. But see what you can find that sounds interesting, gets you talking and learning, and improving in general. 

I took Sci-fi as a class in high school, and I was always an advanced English student. I've read classics and studied deeper meanings in the books we read for classes, but as far as whether it made me a better writer, it didn't. Well, maybe it did, but it wasn't significant in the grand scheme of a journey that's spanned 15 years. Put it that way.

I recently considered taking classes, actually. Perhaps I just think I'm in a weird place, and that's the reason that I haven't yet followed through. Personally, I'd like to attend a class where I'd be accompanied by other "ready to publish" writers. I don't want to take a "writing for beginners" course, because I just don't feel that's where I am, at this point. 

Again, my previous post was just me saying why it wasn't the right choice for me, and what actually helped me improve, if Xysenia didn't actually want to pursue higher education as a means to being a better writer. 

Now, taking all that into consideration, I think it's a bit silly that people like me, who don't feel cut out for an actual college-type education, shouldn't weigh in on this kind of subject. But this has gotten really off-track. This conversation isn't helping the person who asked for advice.

I'm not sure what's going on here on this forum anymore, but I've been absent since about when I posted my comment last January in the linked thread Sheila posted, there. For six months, I've barely even stopped in here to check in. 

WTF is going on here? He have a bunch of new members who want to talk about their current issues...and we were all there, so we can understand how they feel, if we just step back a moment. And then the most benign subjects get heated because folks find themselves on opposing sides of just about everything related to writing theory. 

Honestly, this is getting silly. Sure, Russ said "amusing" and that wasn't very respectful, but seriously, why can't we just let readers of his comment draw their own conclusions? The comment wasn't aimed at anyone specifically. Sheila, I think you need to relax a little. You have a clear path that you believe in very much, and that's fine, but your reaction on this is out of proportion. It's hard to take your theories seriously when you react so poorly. That isn't serving you well in the long run, because you are a representative of this site, and our codes of conduct. Please find more tactful ways to support new members and get across your points of view. Honestly, people will listen, if we can talk without antagonizing each other.


(this was where I want to make a point of no longer talking to anyone specifically. This is my general feeling about how this site has been heading for months now). 

Hey, there's a lot of folks here, with all kinds of backgrounds. Honestly, I've listened to hundreds of people's opinions on this site, in the last few years, andI've naturally gravitated to the folks who express opinions that mesh with my own. It's natural for people to do that. Sometimes it's a mistake in the long run, and folks don't really mesh, and sometimes it's a friendship in the making. So let people make up their own minds. I've gotten shitty responses to some of my questions, and they're like water off a duck's back. Let it go. Don't become besties with that person who gave you an opinion you think doesn't make sense to you. 

Now as for this site, we have a unique environment. We have people who are brand new writers, who have nothing but a collection of short stories or poems like I did in high school, all full of those things that teenagers find so dreadfully important (and dark and emotional, in my case), and we have people who make a good living as writers and who are "living" many people's dreams. WE NEED TO RESPECT THAT!

We, who have been her the longest, we veterans of this forum, who organize things, run things, and otherwise coordinate with our fellow scribes, need to put our best foot forward. Always. When answering questions, as well as when welcoming new members. When writing our stories or interacting in the showcase. Especially when we're dealing with someone who is new here, or new in their own craft. It's IMPERATIVE that we put our nice face on, because it's intimidating, being new in a community and not having any friends. Not being sure of yourself. Not knowing how things go or what people mean when they give harsh feedback or a negative answer to a question. 

Some folks will come right out and say, "I wouldn't ever do it the way you're proposing." And that's terrible! We should watch our mouths, because at the end of the day, this is our home. And we're all sharing it. And I, for one, want to come home and feel good about how my roommates are treating my stuff.

This forum has so much to offer to new writers. Where else can you get critique, help with research, find friends, AND share your work in a showcase or challenges? Nowhere. Stupid sites full of people who constantly self-promote and don't give a fig about anyone but themselves. I love this place, but I'm dangerously close to walking. 

I came back today and wanted to belong to this community, but when I hear how we treat each other, I question whether this is the place for me. We used to be really civil, even when discussing opposing sides and disagreements. I vote for returning to mutual respect and general care for our community.

Sure, there are some subjects that get people up in arms. Sure, there are some fluid pantsers and some steadfast outliners. But overall, there's a whole lot of us between the poles. It gets really tedious for new members to see us fight on their first thread. And frankly, it's rude to them. (Sorry if you're not new and this isn't your first thread...I'm exaggerating). 

Some of us will accept nothing less than publishable, professional writing from ourselves. Some of us use writing as an artistic expression, a therapy, or another sort of spiritual experience. Most of us are just writers who generally want to get better at what we're doing, so we can make the freaking decision ourselves, at some future point. That's it. 

Sure, help with answers. Give people your honest advice for what you did, or how you chose to do something. The more opinions, the merrier, I say. But we're losing what once made this community strong. It was the only forum on the internet where we cared about each and every member. We cared about each other. And the site was more than a place for us to express our opinions, but a place to share the joy of our chosen hobby/ profession.

Let's keep this place safe. Let's welcome everyone to be themselves. Let's take care of each other again. Especially our new members.


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## FifthView (Jul 2, 2016)

Sheila,

I do see, I think, what you mean.

Let's break it down to Storytelling vs Science.

I once broke it down like this:  Science might tell us what is, what will be, and what once was; but it can't tell us what _ought_ to be.

I formulated that idea when considering a different realm of debate–i.e., some of the hubbub in our society about science/rationality vs belief.  

I do _not_ want to get into any sort of political debate (something we are supposed to avoid on MS anyway), so I'll relate it to writing fiction by using a metaphor.

Science is the "ABC's of writing."  In part I mean, quite literally, the alphabet and words formed from that alphabet.  But it can't tell us what to _do_ with that alphabet.  It might tell us that d-o-g spells dog; but it can't tell us whether we _ought_ to use that word in a given situation.  Maybe we should use p-o-o-d-l-e instead.  Or maybe our story will be better if we use c-o-u-g-a-r instead.

So the tools of writing are like the science (metaphorically speaking) but science can't tell us what we _ought_ to do with those tools.

Even larger aspects of the story can have a science.  The three-act structure is a tool.  The science of writing can tell us this, but it can't tell us we _ought_ to use the three-act structure for a particular story.

The science of writing might tell us that if we want to achieve an effect, we might use a particular tool.  But it can't tell us that we _ought_ to create that effect.

So I think that your primary point is that a writer who focuses on the science of writing might become aware of these tools, but simply being aware of them can never tell a writer what she ought to do with those tools.  There's something else that comes into play, and a major part of telling a story is that _something_ that can't be dictated by the science of writing.


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## Sheilawisz (Jul 2, 2016)

Hello FifthView.

I am happy to see that we understand each other better now. Yes, that is pretty much why I emphasize so strongly the difference between writing and storytelling. To me they are totally different things.

Writing can be used for many things, telling stories is just one of them.

The story itself is a spiritual thing, something that comes from the mind of its narrator. It is then told by means of language, and language is recorded by means of writing. That's how I see it.

A person can know all of the technical tools for writing, but when it comes to tell a story there is _something_ else that comes into play, like you said. I'll never say that having the tools and being an expert with them is useless, because writing well is part of the equation too, but the _something else_ part is what I think is vital to our craft.

This entire discussion has given me an idea for my third article in Mythic Scribes, so thanks a lot for your words.

Maiden: I think that even with the occasional heated threads Mythic Scribes is still an extremely civil place if compared to most of the Internet. In fact the worst combats that I have seen in the community took place years ago, and since then nothing so serious has happened again.

We still are a great site that offers a huge variety of information and support.

I have considered the idea to leave not because of the occasional fights and other stuff (I have seen a lot of horrors in my time as a Moderator, believe me) but because of how alien I feel in comparison to most people here. I stay because I want to help others like me if they show up, and also because of my loyalty to Black Dragon.

About the incident with Russ: I felt very hurt because of his comment, and I see that it affected you too. What was I supposed to do? I come to this thread and I welcome our new member Xyesenia as warmly as possible, I give her the advice that I consider my best and I get called amusing.

I could have posted an official warning for him, but I thought that in that case everybody would accuse me of over-reacting or even of abusing my Moderator position. Look what happened instead: I simply sent the harmful comment right back, and some people are saying that I over-reacted anyway.

Being a Moderator is difficult sometimes.

So many people love you in this community, so I'll ask you to please do not leave. You and I have never been great friends, but you are a well-known and appreciated part of Mythic Scribes and it would not be the same without you.

Have a great afternoon!


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## Demesnedenoir (Jul 2, 2016)

Personally, I'm not sure why anyone was even mildly annoyed by the use of amusing in either direction, LOL. My opinions have been called so much worse... and it still doesn't bug me. Maybe I've just developed dragon skin over the years.


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 2, 2016)

Yeah, I wasn't offended by Russ' amusement, either. He had a point. It's like hearing a bunch of outliners talking about how "pantsing is no good". I mean, it's an opinion, and he was right, the first responses all came from people who don't have a higher education in English. So...it was what it was. Our opinions on how we make things work without writing courses.

Thanks, Sheila. I appreciate you not being offended by my comment. I really was trying to be general and it might have come off as an attack against you personally, which it wasn't meant to be. 

My fear for this site is that some of us have been here for years, and we've seen all the "newcomer advice" sort of threads pass by many times, and all weighed in on them. I like to have discussions about writing craft, and welcome civil discussions about whatever subjects arise, but I've felt sometimes like there are sort of two factions here, the people who write for fun, and those who are focused heavily on publishing, and often the sides can come at each other rather combatively. 

If someone said, "that theory might work for a hobby writer, but it's not viable for someone trying to get published," it might be taken offensively by people who prescribe to the theory in question, whether they are hobby writers or published successes. We have a few very successful writers on our forum, and while they might have great advice to give, most of us are still finding our place in the grand journey of writing. I just worry that heated debates on newcomer threads can be harmful to the newer members and present us as warring tribes, in some cases. 

I felt sort of badly that a few of my threads have gone in this direction, and have stopped posting my progress and lessons I've learned, because I want to focus on my writing, and perhaps my viewpoints aren't valuable to many folks here. Meh. If people don't like them, I'm not going to waste my time posting the writing revelations I experience. 

But I'm a veteran member. I'm not easily offended, even when people vehemently disagree with any of my practices. I feel like my work stands on its own, despite my methods and whether they work for others. And I'm still happy to share my experiences with the people who bothered to take down my email or PM me. But I do not want to see new members feel alienated or otherwise discouraged by some of the more experienced voices here. We were all new writers at one point, and had to discover our own truths, even when we disagreed with really successful writers, here or elsewhere.

My goal is to always keep an open mind, though I do have certain strong opinions, based on my experiences first-hand. I just want all members to remember that responding to questions is best when it keeps a respectful attitude (not aimed at anyone, just a general concern, especially with new writers) like when we give critique. Keep an open mind, and be respectful. 

 Hope our new members continue to feel welcomed and invited to participate in any way they feel like putting themselves out there for us to interact with. (Again, not aimed at anyone) I want this to remain a safe place for all to share their thoughts. This community is very valuable to me, and I want it to be so for everyone else, whatever they choose to write.


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## Sheilawisz (Jul 2, 2016)

Hi Demesnedenoir.

I'll explain more about my reaction. Normally I am a very cold and even insensible person, but over a long time I have grown tired of people messing with me both in the Internet and in real life. It affects me especially when I am trying my best to be as nice as possible and offer the advice that I consider my best, and then something like that incident shows up.

I promise to have harder skin in the future.

Anyway I wanted to let everyone know that my second Article is coming soon, and thanks to it I am not going to intervene in threads like this one anymore. When a new person appears and asks for advice, I'll just post once to provide links to my articles and say something like: _Please read about my views and feelings in writing and storytelling... In case all of that resonates with you, contact me_.

That shall be enough to fulfill my desire to help and guide others like me, in case they show up.


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## Chessie (Jul 2, 2016)

Okay...but this site isn't just for newbies. It's for writers of ALL levels. If someone leaves this community because there's too much of a focus on publishing and selling, then I'd like to know where those conversations are because frankly, as a writer who is focused on making money from my craft, I feel rather unsupported here at times. Many folks on this forum write as a hobby and they seem to be in the majority. What's disappointing to me, after being on this site a couple of years, is that productive conversations get heated for no reason!

Sheila, there is no "science" when it comes to writing. It's a creative activity. Writing classes focus on that creativity but they also teach how to draw in an audience. They teach how to construct paragraphs that are effective, characters that are realistic, etc. It honestly isn't any different than picking up a craft book from Amazon. I don't believe that writing is spiritual, but it is artistic, and so there are many different flavors of writers and stories. It's a bit offensive when you say "I just want to help people like me" because that creates a divide that isn't constructive for the site: new and old members alike. 

Writing class is not equal to science. I studied Biology in college and trust me, writing classes are nothing scientific like Biology.

As Maiden said, we should support our fellow writers of all levels. We are a community and our experiences can help others along in their journey. I've learned a lot from these forums and from many of you. But I don't always feel supported because my focus is different than other writers here. Do I let that bother me?  Not really. I've had other folks here come at me for the way I do things. Do I care? Not really. I talk to those I respect and enjoy and ignore the others. If people want to leave this forum because it's got too much of a focus on something they don't like then hey, maybe they're better off going somewhere else. 

Writers of all levels and goals should be supported here. Just because one person has a bad experience in a writing class doesn't mean all writing classes are created equal. We all want to learn. We all want to improve. There's no reason why we can't glue together as a community. For heaven's sake, I love talking about writing because no one else in my life gives a crap. I love this site but I wish the negativity would take a chill pill.


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## skip.knox (Jul 2, 2016)

A basic rule of discourse, people: no _ad hominem_ attacks. That means, you can attack ... okay, I'll tone it down ... you can criticize the argument, but do not under any circumstances attack the person making the argument.

The converse of that is, try not to take it personally. Just because someone criticizes or even ridicules your argument does not necessarily mean they are ridiculing you. Whenever I am inclined to such a reaction, the first thing I do (well, I try to remember to do this) is _walk away_.  Don't reply. Let it sit. Come back another hour or day and look with clear eyes at whether or not this is a personal attack. If it really is the latter, I say I do not respond to _ad hominem_ attacks and I end the conversation there. I do not try to explain to the other person how their attack is wrong. It generally goes worse than nowhere, it goes off onto a thousand unproductive tangents.

Sometimes it helps to make points in different ways, so to quote a very old argument: hate the sin, not the sinner. Or to use another aphorism, you can give offense but that doesn't mean I have to take it.

All other points have been well covered by others on this thread. If I may summarize them: some writing courses are useful, others are not. And to close with a final, Internet-appropriate quote: YMMV.


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## Sheilawisz (Jul 3, 2016)

Hello Chessie.

Yes, I agree that Science is not a perfect word to describe what I have been calling the scientific path in this thread. However, it's the best way that I have discovered to describe that and I am not the only one that has used this expression in particular. Please check Kassan's (Ankari) recent article, because he explains it very well.

I am not sure how to reply to your feelings that people who write for pleasure are the majority here, because I have been feeling exactly the opposite since a long time ago. So many people are really worried that if they do something wrong in their craft then readers will lose all attention, so publishers will not want their work.

I did not say that from now on I will help only others like me. I'll keep posting at World Building, Brainstorming and other Forums dedicated to imagination alone, but I do not want to keep talking about my story-creating processes anymore with everyone. The reactions to my views and ways have been mostly negative (even though other people consider me very inspiring) so I'll just stop participating in threads like this one.

My next Article will allow me to simply tell people: _Hey, take a look! That's how I work. In case you like it, I can help you to learn my process and create your stories this way._

If you ever would like my help with something in your stories, tell me and I'll be delighted to provide any assistance that I can.


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## RedMetalHunter (Jul 3, 2016)

Well, that went south fast. As a new person, I just want to say my experience here has been good. However, it is no where near as busy and active as I had anticipated. It makes me wonder what kind of animosity is going on behind the scenes. A forum of this size should be a lot more active. However, a forum this old is bound to have issues. 

FWIW, seeing an exchange like this (when participation is low) is going to scare some folks off. Folks who are not interested in drama and personality conflicts. But, I have seen a lot worse.

Anyway, to the topic at hand. I would love to try a writing course, but the only ones within reasonable travel distance include yoga, meditation, and a few other things that aren't my particular cup of tea. I have thought about taking a class on Udemy, having had great success with other topics, but I haven't pulled the trigger yet.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jul 3, 2016)

RedMetalHunter said:


> Well, that went south fast. As a new person, I just want to say my experience here has been good. However, it is no where near as busy and active as I had anticipated. It makes me wonder what kind of animosity is going on behind the scenes. A forum of this size should be a lot more active. However, a forum this old is bound to have issues.
> 
> FWIW, seeing an exchange like this (when participation is low) is going to scare some folks off. Folks who are not interested in drama and personality conflicts. But, I have seen a lot worse.
> 
> Anyway, to the topic at hand. I would love to try a writing course, but the only ones within reasonable travel distance include yoga, meditation, and a few other things that aren't my particular cup of tea. I have thought about taking a class on Udemy, having had great success with other topics, but I haven't pulled the trigger yet.



Try some of the Samderson lectures linked above.


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## Russ (Jul 3, 2016)

To xxyesenia25.   

I am sorry that your thread seems to have gotten derailed by my use of the word "amused".  I have many more thoughts on the matter but just about everything I have to say on your topic, taking courses, I said in post #16.

I will be trying to find something positive to take out of this debacle, and will start a new thread on that elsewhere.  Hopefully this thread will not discourage you from seeking answers here on topics you are interested in.  If you are disappointed in where this discussion went I hope we, as a community, can mitigate your disappointment by engaging in a new and better discussion that will improve how this community interacts and works together.


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## FifthView (Jul 3, 2016)

Sheilawisz said:


> Hello Chessie.
> 
> Yes, I agree that Science is not a perfect word to describe what I have been calling the scientific path in this thread. However, it's the best way that I have discovered to describe that and I am not the only one that has used this expression in particular.



I am ambivalent about the use of the word _science_ in this context.  I do believe it applies here, but at the same time I think that different people have different impressions of what science entails.

Maybe we could narrow things down to say that approaching the writing of fiction _as if it were a science_, rather than craft or art, can inhibit the creative process?  I don't know if this is a happy medium for those who don't mind the term and those who believe the term doesn't apply.

So to xxyesenia25 and anyone else who wonders about the usefulness of writing courses, I would just reiterate what I've said earlier, but restate:  

Writing courses aren't cure-alls, any more than buying 10 books on writing or watching 20 Sanderson videos on YouTube, but these and other things can be resources for you if you have the time and/or money to invest in them.  New tools, new ways of  looking at creative writing and your own efforts, can be found in many places, but whichever you choose, it's practice, practice, practice and receiving useful feedback that will improve your writing the most.  In a writing course, at least you are forced to write more and can receive feedback; but a lot of the ins-and-outs of writing can be discovered online via places like Mythic Scribes, blogs, articles, YouTube, or booksellers like Amazon (books on writing.)


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## Sheilawisz (Jul 3, 2016)

Hi everyone.

RedMetalHunter: First of all, Welcome to Mythic Scribes. I am sorry that this thread turned into a heated debate, but this was not really serious after all. Indeed, like I said before the worst and most aggressive confrontations ever seen in Mythic Scribes took place years ago, but we learned from it and nothing that bad has happened again. With time, we have become a friendlier place.

It's impossible to have a perfect environment in which arguments never occur.

I hope that as time passes, your experiences here will become richer and more enjoyable. We talk about so many things like world building, development of ideas and concepts, imagination in general, everyday life stuff and even movies and video games, not only writing techniques.

Xyesenia: I am sorry that your thread was derailed, and I accept my part of the responsibility. Please do not leave the community in case we scared you off, you'll see that most of the times the threads do not develop this way. There are other Forums to explore and share here in Mythic Scribes. I hope you'll love the community.


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## Black Dragon (Jul 6, 2016)

*PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT*

Mythic Scribes is a community comprised of writers with different  perspectives and goals.  For example, some members approach writing as a  casual hobby, while others prefer a professional or career-focused  approach.  

Please remember that these and other differences in perspective are  welcome at Mythic Scribes.  What unites us is a shared love for the  craft of writing, and we can't lose sight of that.

Therefore, it is imperative that everyone treat one another with mutual  respect.  Please refrain from arguing, and instead focus on helping one  another to grow and improve.  If you must disagree with someone, do so  with respect and tact.

Also, be aware that the forum rules prohibit "argumentative or hostile behavior."  Going forward, this prohibition will be strictly enforced.

Finally, do not forget the Guiding Principle upon which Mythic Scribes is built:

 	 		 			 			 				The guiding principle is to treat others with respect and dignity,  and  to foster a positive, welcoming and family friendly community. 			 		


Thank you for doing your part in keeping Mythic Scribes a beacon of light in the sea of hostility that is the internet.


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## Fluffypoodel (Jul 6, 2016)

I haven't read through a thread this in depth in a long time (for some of the reasons stated above) so I guess I owe it to contribute my own two cents. Thanks for the invigoration! 

I took a writing course back in 2011 in which the professor asked us a simple question: 

Would you keep writing if no one would ever read your work?

I raised my hand and was surprised to find myself in the minority. I had never considered the fact that for some people that was the end all goal. Sure, my own goal is to be wildly successful someday but that's not what drives me. Its the love of doing it, If future me was to stop by my house, plop a book into my lap with my name on it and say "good job!" I would be excited but the happiness wouldn't be there. For me its the journey and the adventure that lies along the path. Whatever course you take whether it be through theory or some inner motivation, remember to love what you're doing. Is it worth it otherwise?


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