# GoT vs. ASoIaF [SPOILER-FEST]



## Legendary Sidekick

If anyone want to discuss _Game of Thrones_ episodes that have already aired and any of the books, feel free to do so here in this thread without the need of spoiler tags. Anyone who hasn't read all five books, don't scroll down!


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## Legendary Sidekick

I'll start, though I'm in the middle of book #5, so I know I'm taking a risk. Anyone find it odd that Jaime met with his dad already? Will he attend his son's wedding in the show?


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## teacup

I really liked the scene with Arya killing Polliver, but was surprised to see that the Hound wasn't injured. In the books he dies of the infected wounds from that fight, but as far as I could see, he wasn't scratched. Maybe I missed something, though.
I'm looking forward to seeing how he's going to die in the show, or if he's going to survive longer in the show or not.


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## Legendary Sidekick

I believe he was cut. My wife noticed, and unlike us, she wasn't expecting it to be the beginning of Hound's end. They do lull you into a false sense of security as Sandor happily eats his chicken. (At least I think this is the case.)

Arya quoting Polliver and finishing him the way he finished the boy… yes, that was different from the book in a way that was pretty cool. I don't mind a few changes like that. It's nice to have little surprises.

This is my first time watching after reading, which was also a cool experience for me. I just need to keep quiet about some of the other stuff I know. I only told my wife of the wedding… there's so much else I didn't give away to her though. Let's see if she beats another confession out of me…


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## teacup

In the latest ep the Hound said that he wasn't a thief - that every man needs a code. Rewind to S3, he stole a cart off some guy to get into the Twins.   ._. Just something I found funny.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Maybe next episode he'll say, "I'm not a liar."

_*[Plot-hole filled!]*_


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## kayd_mon

Well I could be remembering it incorrectly, but we don't actually see Sandor die in the book, and aren't there rumors of him leading a band of outlaws? One never knows. In ASOIAF, dead isn't *totally* dead. There are a few zombie characters, so it isn't far-fetched for the Hound to be another.


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## Legendary Sidekick

I thought of it as a death, but you're remembering it right. He's left with a festering wound, dying.


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## SeverinR

teacup said:


> In the latest ep the Hound said that he wasn't a thief - that every man needs a code. Rewind to S3, he stole a cart off some guy to get into the Twins.   ._. Just something I found funny.


Maybe in his mind he only "borrowed" the wagon? or he doesn't think its stealing to take from the dead.(He wanted to kill the man)

I found Arya's scene on line.(They are better at keeping the show off the net this year. I'll probably only get to see little pieces like this) 
The hound had a blade at his throat, only a small cut would be needed to get an infection.

Arya doubled her kills in one scene.  (I think she has killed the boy and the man after red wedding.) She also showed little concern over killing either of the men she killed this episode.
 The man she stabbed with the hounds knife, I think the only emotion she had there was the "Urkle" emotion. "Did I do that?"

Arya did have a smile on her face while the Hound enjoyed his chicken.

I have not read past book 2, but for me, no spoiler, nor description could ruin the future of the show. If I here of something that I hate*, I will watch to that point and then walk away.  (*favorite character getting killed.)
I know a couple people that did that with Red Wedding. They quite watching after that.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Careful, Severin! This is Spoilerville! (Even I'm afraid to click in here, knowing some book 5 stuff will be aired. I saw Dreadfort in the preview (or was it the latest 7-minute HBO special?) and told my wife, "Crap! I just read that part." I gotta finish the book during school vacation!


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## ThinkerX

Watched the first three seasons on disk, caught a few clips of Season 4 (GRRM collects them on his site).

First, in the books, Sandor did not die.  He had the amazing good fortune to be found by a healer priest from the monastery near Saltpans. Brienne saw him at the monastery digging graves during her visit, though she didn't recognize him.

That said, I'm intrigued that the scene of Sandor at the inn took place this quickly.  That puts Arya in Bravos within the next couple episodes, meaning book 4/5.

So...best guess at this point...the last episodes of this season should feature...

Aegon the Pretender setting sail for Westeros at the head of a mercenary army;

Ayra blinded in Bravos;

Bran finding a very dangerous teacher of magic north of the Wall;

Brienne hanging from a tree;

Cersei setting fire to the Tower of the Hand (or just maybe imprisoned by the head Septon)

Dany under siege in the slave cities;

Davos sitting in a cell;

Jaime setting siege to Riverrun;

Jon cutting deals with the wildlings;

Roose Bolton and his murderous Bastard entering the gates of the destroyed Winterfell;

Sam reaching the Citadel;

Sansa plotting with Littlefinger;

Stannis marching from the Wall to liberate the north;

Tyron captured either by Mormont or by the Slavers;


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## Legendary Sidekick

I was expecting to see Mrs. Stark hanging people like at the end of book #3 and no more of her than that, but you're probably right that they'll air Brienne's cliffhanger this season.

If they do, I hope I get to find out what word she said. I'm in the middle of book #5 now, and I found it odd when the red priestess "spoke a word." Her word was magic (and Jon and Mance each heard a different word). I don't expect Brienne's word to have been magic. Anyway, students are taking the MCAS test tomorrow, so I'll work my way closer to that Jaime chapter and find out what happened to Brienne be even more confused about Brienne's fate and Jaime's as well.



And yeah, I see Dreadfort is coming soon (next week?), so I really need to finish the book during school vacation, or I'll cease to be ahead of the show!


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## SeverinR

Maisey Williams said that Game of throne readers will be surpised in Season 4,
the show will have several points that differ from the book.
Maisie Williams Says 'Fans Of The Books Will Be Confused' In 'Game Of Thrones' Season 4


> You may also think you know what's to come in Season 4 of "Game of Thrones," but tough luck because writers David Benioff and Dan Weiss have switched things up.



So reading all the books might not be as important.

They do say the Hound killed Polliver in the book. I think Arya killing him is much better.


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## ThinkerX

I suspect large portions of books 4 & 5 are not going to be filmed.  

First, most of these books run in parallel, not sequentially, and second, there's not that many intense action points.  Tyron and Bran, for example, spend most of their time traveling.  Briennes first stab at finding Ayra is a sort of novella that could be cut altogether.  And so on.

There have been deviations already.  Most notably: the television version of Dany's adventure in Quarth is totally different from the book version (no coup, plus she enters the House of the Undying willingly, and see's an entirely different set of visions while there).


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## ThinkerX

Better this thread than the other, I suppose.

Joffery is dead already...at this rate Tyron will loose his trial by combat within the next episode or two, and be shipped off across the Narrow Sea by episode 5.

Looking more and more like the last four or five episodes of this season will be drawn from the first parts of books 4 and 5.


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## teacup

> Joffery is dead already...at this rate Tyron will loose his trial by combat within the next episode or two, and be shipped off across the Narrow Sea by episode 5. Looking more and more like the last four or five episodes of this season will be drawn from the first parts of books 4 and 5.



I wonder what episode 9 will bring, then. Ep 9 is usually the big one - Ned Stark dying (right?), Battle of Blackwater, Red wedding. I assumed it would be Tywin's death, but if you're right then that can't be, unless they change a whole lot of it.
Maybe it will be Stannis defeating Mance's army? I can't remember much else that would fit the big ep 9. Hmm.


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## Legendary Sidekick

I don't expect episode 9 to be the big one this time around. It might be a big one, but not the big one.

They're messing with the order of events. We have Jamie and Brienne at the wedding, and the Bolton bastard is reunited with his dad (book 5) while Joff still lives. But just for fun, here's a possible Episode 9: Brienne will say a word to Caitlyn while Tywin is proving he doesn't shit gold after all, then fade to black as Arya loses her eyesight.


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## teacup

Maybe, LS. I'm looking forward to seeing. Apparently S4 will be quite different from the books.



And something funny for anyone who's seen the latest ep:
(Includes a swear word, and I'm unsure on the site rules on that, so I'll post the gif as a link instead)
http://37.media.tumblr.com/7043932bb1cfdfa389b8ecefb88c510a/tumblr_n40tg80CWj1qmz4rgo1_500.gif


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## SeverinR

teacup said:


> I wonder what episode 9 will bring, then. Ep 9 is usually the big one - Ned Stark dying (right?), Battle of Blackwater, Red wedding. I assumed it would be Tywin's death, but if you're right then that can't be, unless they change a whole lot of it.
> Maybe it will be Stannis defeating Mance's army? I can't remember much else that would fit the big ep 9. Hmm.



I think they said there is several plot climaxes in this season. So not just episode 9 will be big.  I would think two or three big shows rather then just number 9.

Interesting...no comments yet about last nights episode? (remember I don't have HBO.)


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## SeverinR

Wait, Tommen's king?
What happens to the widow Queen bride?

So Margary becomes more like Cersei?


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## T.Allen.Smith

SeverinR said:


> Wait, Tommen's king?
> 
> What happens to the widow Queen bride?  So Margary becomes more like Cersei?


Her marriage to Joffrey was never consummated. Margary will now marry Tommen when he comes of age...or at least that's the plan.


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## Ophiucha

Oh good, gratuitous rape.

Other than that unnecessary and upsetting scene, and yet another heavily whitewashed city on Dany's journey, last night's episode was okay. Puts everything in motion for the rest of the season although not much of interest happened. I feel like our episode 9 climax will be about Stannis, since we're setting up the impending attack of the wildlings and his need of an army now. That should take enough time to resolve to be a good end game climax. I feel like Tyrion's escape (and other things) will be before that for the sake of pacing, although that could also be a good e9 plot as well.

I'm most curious to see when Lady Stoneheart will be introduced. It could be good for the final episode, one last hook to get people back for s5. But given how much they are pulling from the later books already, I wonder if they might do it earlier and perhaps even go ahead to Brienne's encounter with her as a season cap. Particularly if Tyrion escapes early.


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## Legendary Sidekick

I'm hoping Brienne's encounter is this season, but if she's a major player in book 6 (that's me being hopeful), it would make more sense to have Lady Stoneheart as a season 4 ender and Brienne's Feast of Crows wild goose chase and encounter with Jaime in season 5. I mean IF she'll have lots to do in season 6.

I can appreciate timelines being changed so actors don't end up taking seasons off. When avoidable, that is. The Mountain being out of the picture was unavoidable, but they did good keeping Theon in the story.

I wasn't big on pretty-boy Dario taking on the Merenese challenger. I didn't want to see a fat guy take a dump on a corpse, but I like Strong Belwas, the goofy bastard. (Or was it Brown Ben Plumm? I know it was a fat guy!)


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## ThinkerX

> I wasn't big on pretty-boy Dario taking on the Merenese challenger. I didn't want to see a fat guy take a dump on a corpse, but I like Strong Belwas, the goofy bastard. (Or was it Brown Ben Plumm? I know it was a fat guy!)



It was Strong Belwas. 

As to Brienne, I strongly suspect her last appearance this season will be her getting hanged.

Tyrion should be across the Narrow Sea, possibly captured by Mormont.


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## kayd_mon

http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423

Here's an interview with GRRM from RollingStone.com


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## Legendary Sidekick

Ah… finally, there is no such thing as a spoiler from ASoIaF! I just finished _A Dance with Dragons!_

I'm still a bit surprised to see Strong Belwas didn't make the cut in GoT. I think of him as a major character in Dany's story, and he's VERY different from Dario. I was glad to see Belwas survive book 5… and I don't think I'd care if Dario ends up dead. I might even take a bit of pleasure in his demise. I was rooting for him in book 3, but he's become a human obstacle in 5. Seeing him wink as he played Belwas' part in the show actually made me want to see that character die… not that I'm holding that against the actor. I think he played Dario as I see him. I already hated him in the book before the last episode aired.

Of course, the way book 5 ends, Dario's one of many on the May-Be-About-to-Die list, and among the less important half. Come book 6, I won't be thinking about Dario.


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## ThinkerX

> Of course, the way book 5 ends, Dario's one of many on the May-Be-About-to-Die list, and among the less important half. Come book 6, I won't be thinking about Dario.



No, you be wondering about the big battles shaping up for book 6.

Does Stannis live or die?  For that matter, does his whole damn army starve to death...or freeze to death first?

There is a spoiler 'Theon' Chapter, but it illuminates nothing.

Winterfell is a powder-keg set to blow.  Will the factions gathered there destroy Stannis - or each other?

And meanwhile, who's in charge at the Wall?  Not Jon, not at the moment.

Then across the world and way down south, we have another monumental mess brewing in the slave cities.  My guess is the slavers army is about to get stomped flat...hopefully Tyron won't be stomped flat along with them.  And does Dany get back in time to do any good?  I figure there's a good chance one of her dragons will get stolen.

There is a Tyron spoiler chapter, but apparently you need some sort of weird cell phone plan to access it.  First line (all I saw) indicates a battle in progress.


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## Legendary Sidekick

^Nice contribution to the "Spoiler-Fest!"


Ramsey's B-S'ing by starting his letter with truth, then going into a lie. Of course, only the reader can be (fairly) sure it's a lie since Ramsey would have his Reek and bride back if he found Stannis.

I doubt Stannis fell to the weather, but of course, the next book could reveal that to be the case.

For minor characters, I'm rooting for Penny to somehow survive this. For major characters, I'm hoping Brienne has good reason for her lie to Jaime and I'd like to see Strong Belwas strong again (even if being strong means he'll die in a battle). For main characters, I think Jon and Dany will make it. I think "Robert Strong" will win the battle trial, but I'd like to think keeping his face hidden will (eventually) arouse suspicion. Whether this will be of consequence to Cersei; whether she'll be out of the sparrows' reach by the time they discover her champion is not a living person… well, I have no expectations.

Looking forward to book 6, and enjoying the show in the meantime.


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## ThinkerX

Lots of folks are already highly suspicious of 'Ser Robert Strong', as the epilogue attests to.  

Yes, I'm rooting for Penny to survive.

I expect the fleet of Volantis to mutiny in favor of Dany.  When that happens, Volantis itself will go up in flames shortly afterwards.  That fleet lets Dany and her army cross the narrow sea - after they sack a city for provisions.

I figure Jon will survive, and ride a dragon, at least in spirit (the animal possession thing).  Bran might give him a hand there.

I did come across speculation on another site as to how Stannis could tromp his attackers:  he's camped out near a pair of lakes, and armored knights on horseback weigh far more than men afoot.  

I figure Arya assassinates Cersei (Iron Bank of Bravos working hand in glove with the Faceless Men).  

I expect the Wall will come tumbling down.

I have doubts the dragons will still live at the series end.  Might be an egg or three tucked away somewhere, though.

One thing I noticed long ago and still wonder about:  every single one of the likely candidates for the Iron Throne has a flaw that would render them or their descendants ineligible to sit upon it:

Stannis has one heir, a sickly daughter.

Cersei's children are the result of incest, and the cat is well and truly out of the bag there.

Roberts trueborn offspring are all bastards.  Would anybody accept the smith as king?

Dany may be unable to bear children, and major acceptance issues.  Plus, when you look back, she's left behind a trail of burning cities wherever she's gone.

Aegon the Imposters number one man is dying, and his army is composed of sell swords.

And Jon, IF he is the real Aegon, has the small issues of proving his claim AND his vow to the Nights Watch.  Magic is back, and magic lies behind that vow.  Breaking it = really bad idea.

I am wondering if the series ends with the introduction of some sort of Magna Carta or parliamentary system.


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## Legendary Sidekick

ThinkerX said:


> I am wondering if the series ends with the introduction of some sort of Magna Carta or parliamentary system.


I'm also thinking a 'nobody gets the throne' type ending.


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## Gryphos

I'm hoping for a populist takeover kind of thing.


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## Ophiucha

I imagine it will end with the kingdoms splitting up again, maybe not quite into seven pieces but three or four at least, and with the sort of ending that implies that they'll go through this whole rigmarole of a power struggle again in a few years. Winterfell would be the new powerhouse, with Jon Snow or perhaps Sansa's husband on the throne, but with one of those endings where you know that Spring will bring a new war. Maybe Margaery? Her house is all flowers and growing, and if she finally consummates a marriage at the end of a series, she could have a child king to rule behind by the time winter is gone.


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## ThinkerX

> Maybe Margaery? Her house is all flowers and growing, and if she finally consummates a marriage at the end of a series, she could have a child king to rule behind by the time winter is gone.



Hmmm...if the Wall falls, that might break the Night Watch Oath.  If Jon gets acknowledged as Aegon, then a marriage to Margaery might be the best way to keep things unified - one from the north, and one from the south.   That's a lot of 'if's', though.   At this rate Margaery is going to have the rep as the most desirable black widow of them all: three marriages, widowed within minutes twice - and still a virgin.

At this point, the Lannisters are out of people competent enough to take the throne, and the other houses also have issues with suitable heirs.


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## teacup

I found a very interesting theory that the series will end with Jon Snow against Daenerys, her with dragons, and Jon leading the White Walkers.
Game of Thrones: Jon Snow will lead the army of White Walkers against Daenerys Targaryen and her Dragons | Well Lackadaddy Aaron I drink your milkshake!


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## Legendary Sidekick

That's what I'm hoping not to see: Jon vs. Dany. Jon vs. jerk or Dany vs. jerk means I know what to root for. Jon vs. Dany is lose-lose.

And, no, I'm not ruling that out or saying it would ruin the series for me. War is tragic.


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## kayd_mon

Ugh. Too many theories...  If I remember any of these when book 6 comes out, and they turn out to be right, it will spoil the whole thing for me. I should have known better than to click on a spoiler fest! I'm out of this thread.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Meh. They're all wrong anyway. Everyone knows Rickon gets the Iron Throne.


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## teacup

> Everyone knows Rickon gets the Iron Throne.


 It seems you're forgetting the one true king, Hodor.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Oh, that's right. Rickon gets his brother's old piggy-back-pack, so he's sitting on Hodor while Hodor's on the Iron Throne.

That explain how the poor kid loses half a buttock to one of the swords. That's the third-saddest scene in book 7, by the way. Just reading the spoiler made me weepy. Those Starks are always losing heads or asses.


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## Ophiucha

Excuse me, it _clearly_ is going to end with Margaery and Sansa getting married and being on the Iron Throne. They're just going to raise Rickon as their heir, obviously.

So, last night's episode.

Umm.

I think they skipped _ahead_ of the books? Also, there goes Brienne, so we may see Lady Stoneheart soon after all.


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## teacup

> Excuse me, it _clearly is going to end with Margaery and Sansa getting married _


With all the lesbian sex scenes in the books this might just be right.


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## ThinkerX

Spoiler: Tyron



Starts with Tyrion listening to the battle outside, the "music of slaughter" he calls it.  The Iron Born have blocked off the river with a fire ship, trapping the slavers.  Tyrion says as a Westerman he knows full well how savage they can be.  The slavers are being slaughtered. 



Tyrion reflects on his first battle, especially the time before it that he spent with Shae.  She's on his mind a lot this chapter.  Even though this is his third battle, he is terrified.  He thinks about all of his crimes, questioning why he even thinks he deserves to live.  Lots of self-loathing going on here.  Penny, already in her armor, approaches him and offers to help him don his.  Tyrion wants some wine.  As he's waxing (morbidly) poetic about his first battle, Penny kisses him all of a sudden.  He's left speechless, not wanting to hurt her by making it clear he's not interested.   



Eventually he starts talking about all the slaughter going on outside, scaring her.  She questions why he makes japes about it all, then she calls him brave.  This reminds him of Shae calling him "her giant of Lannister", which makes him (irrationally) think Penny is mocking him.  He gets very angry, feeling a momentary impulse to slap her.  The memory of killing Shae overwhelms him, and he imagines what he would do to Penny right now if he had a chain, a crossbow or any kind of weapon.....it's a very disturbing moment, which makes one question Tyrion's mental state.  I honestly thought he was coming out of his funk, but now I'm not so sure.  



The sound of shouts snaps him out of it.  The dragons have come.  Rhaegal is circling the bay where the naval battle is happening, but not attacking anyone apparently.  Viserion is closer,  snapping the corpses being thrown by the large trebuchets out of the air and eating them.  One of them he sets on fire and drops, landing on some Yunkish horsemen, burning and scattering them.  Viserion retreats back to his lair in Meereen, while Rhaegal stays out over the bay.  Tyrion smells urine and notices Inkpots has pissed himself.



A Yunkish officer representing [some slaver with a weird name] rides up, demanding the Second Sons go fight the Iron Born that are trying to land on the shore.  Inkpots says Brown Ben is off meeting with [some other slaver with a weird name] and they can't do anything until he gets back.  The officer rides off, outraged at this disobedience.  The Yunkish command structure is a complete mess.  They were rotating who was Supreme Commander on a daily basis, and now during the battle several of them are trying to claim that title, each trying to do their own thing. 



Jorah walks up and says they are on the wrong side, they should switch before Dany returns.  He's absolutely certain she will.  He says they should save the hostages, and he swears to tell Dany that the Second Sons were playing the Yunkish the entire time, that they were always on her side.  Brown Ben returns with news.  Ser Barristan is attacking the trebuchets with his forces, [the slaver with a weird name he met] wants the Second Sons to defend one of them.  Everyone in the tent thinks the idea is stupid.  Their company is made up of mounted men, they aren't suited to hold a fixed position.



Another messenger, with a depraved image carved on his breastplate that Tyrion admires, representing [a third slaver with a weird name] shows up with different orders.  The Unsullied are advancing on a trebuchet now too, Bloodbeard's company and two Ghiscari legions stand against them.  The messenger wants the Second Sons to sweep around and attack the Unsullied in the rear.  The messenger informs them that the Tattered Prince and his company of Windblown have switched sides...which makes Brown Ben scratch his chin in contemplation.



The messenger recognizes Tyrion as an escaped slave and demands he be turned over.  Jorah stabs him through the throat with his long sword in response, sending him sprawling into the cyvasse board.  The pieces fly everywhere, a white dragon with veins of Yunkish blood seeped in its grooves lands right at Tyrion's feet.  As he picks it up, Brown Ben announces that they have been the Queen's men all along.  Tyrion says he wants the dead man's gaudy breastplate, and the chapter ends.


best summary I've found of the Tyron chapter on that weird cell phone ap.


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## Snowpoint

Podrick attempting to ride a horse was the best part of the episode. The Brienne and Bran sections of the books go one forever and I think the show is doing as much as it can to make those threads more interesting.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Yeah, I can see why they made that change for the screen. It looks like there is a HUGE change regarding the Theon/Asha reunion, unless I misread the preview.

I have a feeling the season will cover the Brienne plot from book 4 (but not her "cameo" in 5) and the Theon plot from book 5. My guess is that the other major characters won't progress past book 3 with the possible exception of Arya. (It may be my faulty memory, but it seems she's spending more time with the Hound than in the book. That, or the order of events has been shuffled.)

Pod is a good comic relief character. I hope he doesn't die. (Speculation regarding his fate is mixed. I let someone borrow book 4, so I can't reread to see his fate is a clear "yep, he's dead." I assumed Brienne said her "word" to save him, not just herself. Of course, I'm also assuming/hoping she's not a younger, bigger Lady Stoneheart.)


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## T.Allen.Smith

An interview of GRRM where he discusses reader & viewer reactions to depictions sexual violence.

I thought some may find it interesting considering our forum discussion of the Cersei-Jaime funeral scene.
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/may/06/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-sexual-violence


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## kayd_mon

So it appears that I have returned to the spoiler thread. So much for resolve, lol. 

How great was Peter Dinklage's performance in the trial scene? He's a great actor, but last night he really shone.


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## SeverinR

That was a great scene, I think it might be award winning.(another one)
[I did find the complete episode, the first of the season. I have seen bits and pieces of several episodes]

The frustration, the betrayal, the anger, the hurt, the rage shown in that one scene.

One question, was Shay's betrayal a suprise or was it lead up to in scenes that I haven't seen yet?

(I believe like Pod, he demanded she make a clean break of him. It didn't lessen the pain when she did it, nor could it, since her life depends on them believing her story, or else she is a co-conspirator.  She would not sell out Sansa and Tyrion like she did if she was not told too.)


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## Legendary Sidekick

I found it surprising in the book. And, yes, there's more to it which was hinted at in the dialogue. (But if you haven't read the book, you'll find out what the "more to it" is in a few weeks.)


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## kayd_mon

With each day that passes, and with each episode that airs, the fear that the show will start spoiling the books grows larger. Makes me sad! In my dreams, GRRM has already finished both Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring, and we'll get them both in early '15.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Well, this season does end where book 3 ends. (I mean, it has to!) I think of book 4 and 5 stuff, they just started Brienne's journey and the same goes for Theon's plot.

I could see having the worry that Theon/Brienne would advance into book 6 territory sooner than later.

Honestly, they make up so much stuff on the show, I wonder if they air _Winds of Winter_ scenes before I read the book I'll being saying things like: "Strong Belwas? But... Dario did that!" (I mean when I read it later.)




Speaking of... does TV Dario have sex with Dany every night until the wedding, then the night after, pig out on chocolate locusts?

I think the pit fights will be harder to watch than Oberon's death, particularly the topless woman being disemboweled by the boar! I had to reread that part. I was so distracted by the horrible death, that I put aside my suspicions that Belwas was pigging out on poisoned snacks. I guess it made sense that the characters didn't pick up on that. I DID, but when he was puking, I was just thinking about that poor woman's thwarted futile attempt to hobble out of the arena and the painful death. That was the part that confirmed my suspicion that Belwas was about to die (I'm happy to be wrong about the death part!), but I was focused on the pit like the rest of the audience. (Um... I mean the fictional audience. I wasn't really sitting with them, was I?)


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## SeverinR

How cool would it be to be actually sitting in the audience for a filming?

Just watched the battle between Mountain and the Viper.
I believe both men died.  I guess the acting king gets to decide what that means.
I guess Viper died first.

I only read the description before, I wondered how the Mountain got the upper hand.
Never play with your conquest. Never get over confident.

He got the confession but he didn't get the part saying Tywin ordered it. But it cost him the ultimate.

I wonder how long the actor had to practice with the polearm to look that comfortable with it.


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## Legendary Sidekick

The Mountain isn't dead, but the Viper's spear was poisoned, so Oberon did succeed in avenging his sister and her children. I think the show didn't reveal that the spear was poisoned (yet).


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## Gryphos

> I think the show didn't reveal that the spear was poisoned (yet).



Actually, if you watch closely there is a shot of Oberyn's squire wiping a cloth on his spear before the fight.


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## Legendary Sidekick

It was subtle... but if you didn't read the book, did you know the Red Viper used poison spears? (I suppose you could guess that if you referred to him as "Red Viper" instead of "Prince Oberon.")



By the way, this is the spoiler-fest thread! If you didn't read the book, you might not want to dig too deeply in here.


Spoiler: Gryphos, if he wants to know IF pay-off exists without it being defined



Pay-off in two weeks.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Legendary Sidekick said:


> It was subtle... but if you didn't read the book, did you know the Red Viper used poison spears?


In the show as well as the books, his extensive knowledge of poisons is mentioned.


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## SeverinR

He did change weapons. His squire did toss him one.

The wounds looked to strike deep vital targets. He also would never walk right again. Viper cut his tendon or maybe the whole calf muscle. I don't think the mountain would play dead in a fight.







Dang it Hodor gets the babes.
My favorite Harpys with Hodor. (Harp twins)

"Hodor...Hooodor!"

I just saw an cologne ad(fake I believe) Odor by Hodor.

http://www.daylol.com/odor-by-hodor


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## kayd_mon

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Well, this season does end where book 3 ends. (I mean, it has to!) I think of book 4 and 5 stuff, they just started Brienne's journey and the same goes for Theon's plot.
> 
> I could see having the worry that Theon/Brienne would advance into book 6 territory sooner than later.
> 
> Honestly, they make up so much stuff on the show, I wonder if they air _Winds of Winter_ scenes before I read the book I'll being saying things like: "Strong Belwas? But... Dario did that!" (I mean when I read it later.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of... does TV Dario have sex with Dany every night until the wedding, then the night after, pig out on chocolate locusts?
> 
> I think the pit fights will be harder to watch than Oberon's death, particularly the topless woman being disemboweled by the boar! I had to reread that part. I was so distracted by the horrible death, that I put aside my suspicions that Belwas was pigging out on poisoned snacks. I guess it made sense that the characters didn't pick up on that. I DID, but when he was puking, I was just thinking about that poor woman's thwarted futile attempt to hobble out of the arena and the painful death. That was the part that confirmed my suspicion that Belwas was about to die (I'm happy to be wrong about the death part!), but I was focused on the pit like the rest of the audience. (Um... I mean the fictional audience. I wasn't really sitting with them, was I?)



There's also the fact that anything that Littlfinger or Sansa does from here on out is either a book spoiler or a deviation.


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## teacup

Correct me if I'm wrong about anything on this, it's been a while since I read the books.

In the books, when Littlefinger kills Lysa, he blamed it on a singer who was there at the time, and got away with it, and is now Lord of the Vale. In the show the singer isn't there, and it looked like Littlefinger would have been found guilty of murdering her if Sansa hadn't helped him out.

Though this made Sansa very interesting, it made Littlefinger seem unprepared, to me, and not quite as clever as I thought. In the books he got away with it because of his own lies and blaming the singer. In the show it was like he was going to lose, until Sansa stepped in. 

What are peoples thoughts on this?


(Like I said I could be wrong. I can't remember how easily he got away with it in the books. Maybe he's still under suspicion? I don't remember Sansa helping...but again that might just be my memory.)


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## Sir Kieran

teacup said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong about anything on this, it's been a while since I read the books.
> 
> In the books, when Littlefinger kills Lysa, he blamed it on a singer who was there at the time, and got away with it, and is now Lord of the Vale. In the show the singer isn't there, and it looked like Littlefinger would have been found guilty of murdering her if Sansa hadn't helped him out.
> 
> Though this made Sansa very interesting, it made Littlefinger seem unprepared, to me, and not quite as clever as I thought. In the books he got away with it because of his own lies and blaming the singer. In the show it was like he was going to lose, until Sansa stepped in.
> 
> What are peoples thoughts on this?
> 
> 
> (Like I said I could be wrong. I can't remember how easily he got away with it in the books. Maybe he's still under suspicion? I don't remember Sansa helping...but again that might just be my memory.)



I believe he had much more control in the books. He blamed Lysa's death on Marillion, immediately inherited the title of Lord of the Vale, and then told the other lords that he would be out within a year. I just reread the scene and outlined some of his plans: 

(1) He expects Robert(Robin) to die soon. "Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time" (896). 
(2) Sansa will win the affections of Harold Hardyng (Harry the Heir), son of Lady Waynwood. "The dwarf wed Ned Stark's daughter, not mine. be that as it may. This is only a betrothal. The marriage must needs wait until Cersei is done and Sansa's safely widowed. And you will meet the boy and win his approval. Lady Waynwood will not make him marry against his will, she was quite firm on that [. . . .] Harry can be a beguiling one, no doubt. Soft sandy hair, deep blue eyes, and dimples when he smiles. And _very_ gallant, I am told [. . . .] Bastard-born or no, sweetling, when this match is announced you will be the envy of every highborn maiden in the Vale, and a few from the Riverlands and the Reach as well" (893-894). 
(3) Harry the Heir is called so because he is Robert's heir (through numerous deaths in the Vale houses). Littlefinger concludes the final Alayne chapter with the following speech: 

"_When_ Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn's bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?" (896) 

When I first read this scene, I had to put the book down in amazement of Littlefinger's elaborate plan and his extensive knowledge of the Vale houses; he certainly did his research. I certainly believe that he is playing for his own selfish reasons; my only hope is that he means to genuinely help Sansa along the way, and will not ruin her in the process. What the showrunners seem to be hinting at, in some interviews, is that Sansa is growing intelligent and could possibly play Littlefinger at his own game, if it ever comes to that. 

For now, I think Littlefinger's plan sounds just fine.


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## teacup

> I believe he had much more control in the books. He blamed Lysa's death on Marillion, immediately inherited the title of Lord of the Vale, and then told the other lords that he would be out within a year. I just reread the scene and outlined some of his plans:
> 
> (1) He expects Robert(Robin) to die soon. "Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time" (896).
> (2) Sansa will win the affections of Harold Hardyng (Harry the Heir), son of Lady Waynwood. "The dwarf wed Ned Stark's daughter, not mine. be that as it may. This is only a betrothal. The marriage must needs wait until Cersei is done and Sansa's safely widowed. And you will meet the boy and win his approval. Lady Waynwood will not make him marry against his will, she was quite firm on that [. . . .] Harry can be a beguiling one, no doubt. Soft sandy hair, deep blue eyes, and dimples when he smiles. And _very gallant, I am told [. . . .] Bastard-born or no, sweetling, when this match is announced you will be the envy of every highborn maiden in the Vale, and a few from the Riverlands and the Reach as well" (893-894).
> (3) Harry the Heir is called so because he is Robert's heir (through numerous deaths in the Vale houses). Littlefinger concludes the final Alayne chapter with the following speech:
> 
> "When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn's bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?" (896)
> 
> When I first read this scene, I had to put the book down in amazement of Littlefinger's elaborate plan and his extensive knowledge of the Vale houses; he certainly did his research. I certainly believe that he is playing for his own selfish reasons; my only hope is that he means to genuinely help Sansa along the way, and will not ruin her in the process. What the showrunners seem to be hinting at, in some interviews, is that Sansa is growing intelligent and could possibly play Littlefinger at his own game, if it ever comes to that.
> 
> For now, I think Littlefinger's plan sounds just fine._



Oooh great, thank you. Very interesting.

I'm a little disappointed in Littlefinger for killing Lysa in the show with no good way out of it, and it didn't look like he was planning on Sansa to help him out there. But I can forgive it, because it's certainly made Sansa a much more interesting character.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Cool as it was to have the singer's music echoing from the Sky Cells, this is probably the only deviation I actually fell in love with.

It made sense not to hire an actor to play the fall guy, since you couldn't really establish that the singer was Lysa's favorite... not without having more screen-time for Lysa, and there are more interesting characters/scenes to show. The suicide made sense, so I was impressed with how they handled this part. There are some deviations I like, too, but this is the only one I loved and didn't even have a part of me contemplating whether they'd be better off following the book.

I don't know if it's a deviation that Sansa testified without Littlefinger telling her what to say first, but I loved his poker-face. It made sense that he'd let Sansa have her say. Even if she was about to end him with her words, any attempt to stop her would have been proof of his guilt. Sansa telling who she is (which I'm pretty sure is a deviation) also made sense, as it's been clarified to her that she's not  good liar. Best to start her lie with truth, then when she's shaken and in tears, no one questions that her nervousness is from lying. She just revealed her identity, which is something she should be scared to do! A brilliant way for an honest person to try deception for the first time.

So, yeah... I love Darth Sansa. I forgot where I read that. I'm commenting on her character, not her Disney Villainess look, but still... a great scene, which even stands out in the shadow of Oberon's exploding head.


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## Sir Kieran

Legendary Sidekick said:


> I don't know if it's a deviation that Sansa testified without Littlefinger telling her what to say first, but I loved his poker-face.



This was definitely a deviation, but one that is working excellently. In the books, Littlefinger makes it clear that she is Alayne Stone, and that no one else is to ever know. However, the scene was one of my favorites. Sophie Turner has really grown into the role, and I would say that her speech was her best acting yet. I even felt a little emotional at watching her, and on my rewatch of the episode, momentarily believed everything that she was saying. This is a deviation from the books that I can understand and appreciate; it makes Sansa's story _much_ more interesting. 

As other people have brought up, now it's just a question of what will happen to her in Season 5, since this episode just about closed her storyline in A Feast for Crows (minus Littlefinger deviously revealing his maniacal takeover plan to her . . . which I wonder if that will be included in the show at all).


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## teacup

I'll post this on both threads. It's worth it to watch this guy's reviews, too. They make me laugh.

This is a funny video, Oberyn vs The Mountain, denial version.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Just read a review that said "Grenn and Pyp both die, yet another departure from the books." No wonder I was surprised by their deaths. Usually, changing who lives/dies bothers me. I guess this episode was that good that I'm not even bothered by it.

I didn't realize the bald coward was Janos Slynt. I remember his part from book 5 much more clearly. Now that the show reminded me of his cowardice, the "I want his boots" scene will be that much more satisfying!


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## Sir Kieran

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Just read a review that said "Grenn and Pyp both die, yet another departure from the books." No wonder I was surprised by their deaths. Usually, changing who lives/dies bothers me. I guess this episode was that good that I'm not even bothered by it.



Since I've read the books, I don't necessarily react with complete shock to anything (although the Red Wedding really got me), but I gasped and leaned forward in my chair when Pyp died. I know it's a deviation from the book, but not one that really upsets me too much. Pyp and Grenn don't have too big of a part coming up (but I believe Edd does, so at least he lived). I think the producers want to focus on Jon, Sam, Stannis, Mel, and Davos at the Wall. 

Also, on the ASOIAF forum, one user mentioned that since Tormund Giantsbane has been captured (in the books, he is still free and Val goes to find him in Book 5), that Val will not be a character in the next season. 

These are definitely deviations from the books, but ones that I don't mind. It will give us more time to focus on the central characters. Personally, I'm a supporter of Stannis (I've heard Stannis supporters called Stanstans, Stanfans, Stannis fannis) so I hope we get a lot of him next season. I would love to see his attempted invasion of Winterfell, instead of just hearing about it.


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## SeverinR

teacup said:


> I'll post this on both threads. It's worth it to watch this guy's reviews, too. They make me laugh.
> 
> This is a funny video, Oberyn vs The Mountain, denial version.



I know its not in the script, but those wounds were fatal. One does not spit up blood with out the lung or the stomach being pierced. Without antibiotic, these wounds would be fatal. 

Cupids arrows was painful to one, deadly to the other, but yet he stills knows nothing.


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## teacup

I can't remember properly from the books, so I might be wrong, but in the books didn't Stannis and his army swoop in and turn the tide of the battle between the Wildlings and the Night's Watch? Is it a deviation from the book that he didn't, or does that just happen later on in the books?

I don't mind if it is a deviation. I've enjoyed all of the deviations so far. (Except the Jaime rapey stuff.) 

I was watching the episode and just waiting throughout for Stannis to arrive, and he didn't  I'm interested to see when he will show up. (And when he did show up in the books, too.)



It was a great episode. I'm looking forward to the finale now.


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## Legendary Sidekick

I'm guessing Jon will find Stannis next episode while he's outside. In the books, Jon had his moment with Ygritte after the fighting was (temporarily) over. Stannins wasn't involved in the battle when Jon had barrels of burning oil dropped on either side, or something like that so the willing were surrounded by fire and trapped well below Jon and other archers.

I also remember[SUP]1[/SUP][SUB][/SUB] there was a _little_ break between dead wildling women. Harma Dogshead's death stood out for me, since it made Stannis' men look like cold-hearted bastards[SUP]2[/SUP][SUB][/SUB], even when they were swooping in to save the day.

1. Disclaimer: my memory sucks.
2. I suspect this is the intended effect.


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## Legendary Sidekick

If you didn't see the final episode yet, don't open the spoiler tag. The finale had a few surprises, and I'm just curious about people's thoughts...



Spoiler: my thoughts on the surprises



First of all, Jojen Reed... he DID live in the book, didn't he? I'm not complaining so much as I'm wondering if killing him off means he's going to die in the books.

Brienne meeting Arya was cute. Her killing Sandor (or leaving him in really bad shape if he does live) was certainly interesting. I had to assure my wife Brienne is alive in the book, but by the time this scene was up, there were already some dead characters who had also lived in the book.

I'm not sure why Catelyn wasn't revealed at the end. Are they going to just not have her? Is she only important to Brienne's story? And of course my other question is what will Brienne say when she meets Jaime? The Sandor/Arya thing would actually be true as far as she knows (seeing how Sandor's fall is a likely death but not a confirmed kill).

I actually liked Tyrion and Jaime parting on friendly terms. I can see why they made that change, seeing how there wasn't time to build up animosity between the brothers. Non-readers only know Jaime's helping Tyrion escape. I guess without really getting into his head, to have him say "I killed your son, and next time we meet, I'll kill you" would have come off as irrational.



Really, I've been complaining about deviations, but I enjoyed last night's episode and the one before in spite of them. This is my first season watching as a reader, so maybe I needed a few episodes to get used to the fact that the show deviates quite a bit from the book.

I read the Twin death to my wife after the show. I think she was happy that he was shot elsewhere in the show. I missed the "shit gold" line, but really, there wasn't a good way to work in those unspoken words in the show.


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## SeverinR

Just got cable back, with a 3 month subs to HBO.
Got to see the final episode tonight.

*Wow. Was the Black waterloo in the privy close to the book, did he really die in the books?
*Broken femor could mean death, but not confirmed dead. 
*The children have great powers then Brann can learn,
*the black sheep wolf finds the path to her destany, all men must die, all men must serve.

Final episode spoilers follow:

I think Shay was the worst twist they tried to pass off as a betrayal. Imo it was a failure in writing. She was loyal, risking death for Sansa and Tyrion. She refused to leave them when offered great money to leave.  Then she does the ultimate betrayal and serves his father?
The only way to redeem this failing would be for Tyrion to find that Shay was plotting against Tywin. Hard to establish when she pulled a knife on Tyrion. But I believe this would also destroy Tyrion, knowing he killed his love that never truly betrayed him.
I still love the show, but I think this was purely done for shock value.


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## Legendary Sidekick

@Severin,

Yes, it's true to the books. If it won't ruin it for you, here's an excerpt.


Tyrion’s finger clenched. The crossbow _whanged_ just as Lord Tywin started to rise. The bolt slammed into him above the groin and he sat back down with a grunt. The quarrel had sunk deep, right to the fletching. Blood seeped out around the shaft, dripping down into his pubic hair and over his bare thighs. “You shot me,” he said incredulously, his eyes glassy with shock.

“You always were quick to grasp a situation, my lord,” Tyrion said. “That must be why you’re the Hand of the King.”

“You … you are no … no son of mine.”

“Now that’s where you’re wrong, Father. Why, I believe I’m you writ small. Do me a kindness now, and die quickly. I have a ship to catch.”

For once, his father did what Tyrion asked him. The proof was the sudden stench, as his bowels loosened in the moment of death. _Well, he was in the right place for it_, Tyrion thought. But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie.

Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold.

(_A Storm of Swords_, Martin, p.1073)



In the spirit of Spoiler-Fest, you can read *more of how it went down in the books* on MTV News.


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## ThinkerX

Minor spoiler:

The old man Bran meets at the tree is 'Bloodraven', a character from a series of shorts GRRM wrote set several decades prior to the events of the novels and television series.  ('Dunk and Egg' - Dunk being a hedge knight, Egg being a heir to the throne).

Bloodraven was Hand to the King, and had a reputation as a sorcerer in a time when magic was believed extinct.  'Thousand eyes and one' - because he had only one eye, but spies everywhere.  Later he was exiled to the Wall, where he became Lord Commander of the Nights Watch...before vanishing on a ranging.  Very smart, very capable, very dangerous.


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## SeverinR

"I got you something for fathers day, Daddy, I hope you get the point." Tyrion Lannister.


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## SeverinR

Ballad of Black water bay? (they call it Wildfire)
WILDFIRE - A Game of Thrones song - YouTube


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## ThinkerX

Yeah, it be way early.  But I am a Game of Thrones fan, and I do harbor the hope that 'Winds of Winter' will be out before the next season airs.  Which got me to thinking...

Most of the character arcs this time around coincided with the end of book three.  A few pushed into book four or fell short.  So...how far does the next season take things?  My best guess:

*Ayra:* TV and book both ended with her getting on a ship to Bravos.  In the books, it's mostly 'training' or 'petty revenge' type stuff for her in Bravos, but sooner or later she has to leave.  My guess is her series five story will finish the same way this one did - with her getting aboard a ship, this one sailing to Westeros.

*Bran:* Bran pushed clear into book 5 this TV season.  Next season...I don't think Martins published works run that far yet (show outpacing books).  Come on 'Winds of Winter!'


*Breinne:*  Season four ended with her well into the events of book four.  My best guess here is she gets hanged in season five...or possibly appears long enough to lure Jaime away from his army.

*Cersei:* Book and show ended in the same place.  Next time around...I suspect she'll end up imprisoned by the church...or maybe make her 'walk of shame.'

*Dany:* To all intents and purposes, season and show ended in the same place.  She doesn't do much after that in the books, though...at least not until her dragon fly's her away.  Be a good spot to end next season.

*Davos:* Not really sure where he finished at in the show, but probably somewhere in book three.  And he sort of vanishes about the middle of book five.  So...next season ends either with him imprisoned in White Harbor...or sailing for Skagos (looking for Rickon).

*Jaime:*  Book and show ended about the same place this time around.  Main thing he does in the books afterward is to take the Tully's castle...and vanish with Breinne.  Either would be a good mark to hit.

*Jon:*  Jon, in season four, fell short of the ending in book three.  He has to jump up to the command slot...but past that, he's mostly negotiating rather than fighting...until the stabbing scene.  Maybe the next season will take things that far.

*Sam:* Like Jon, season four didn't reach the end of book three.  He has to scheme to make Jon Commander of the Nights Watch, then board a ship bound for Bravos and make a connection from there to Old Town...yet I find myself wondering if this isn't a part of the book that will get chopped in the show.  Have Sam remain on the Wall.  But the end of the TV season could see him in either Bravos or Old Town.

*Sansa:* The show differed from the books.  She is now in book four territory, more or less.  Who knows what may happen?

*Theon:* Another that varied from the books, but seemingly in book five.  I have a suspicion he may not survive the season.  His sister may fare better.

*Tyrion:* Show and book ended in the same spot.  But past that, in the books, he's mostly traveling.  I could see him reaching the slaver cities, standing on the beach, as the ironborn come swarming ashore with murder on their minds...

I figure a fair amount of next season, though will revolve around events in the Iron Islands and in Dorne: the former send a fleet clear to Slavers Bay, and the later has to deal with substantial unrest.


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## SeverinR

Game of Thrones: Season 4 Bloopers (Comic Con) - YouTube

Season 4 bloopers.


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