# Help with a trans* character?



## Ophiucha (Apr 26, 2013)

I have this character, let's call her Hannah, who is a transgender woman. She has a conflict that relates to her gender, indirectly, but it doesn't come up for quite a while in the story. Like at least half way through the novel. I don't necessarily want her being trans* to be a 'twist' or anything, but I'm not sure how to imply it without saying something offensive about how 'poorly' she passes for a woman or something abrupt like her just out-and-out saying it (keeping in mind that my setting is a world where it's not very acceptable). Should I just leave it off until it is relevant or try to find ways to imply it - and if the latter, I need some tasteful tips on that. I don't have much experience writing trans* characters, and the only transgender friend I could ask is a man, so not all of the tip-offs and language are the same when it comes to writing the little things. Thanks!



Spoiler: more details on the character/conflict if relevant



Hannah has a blood disease that is inactive in males - think of it is a reverse haemophilia - and hence, as she is male-bodied, she isn't affected by it. Later on in the story, by means of magic, her girlfriend offers her her blood, which in this world would allow Hannah to basically have a sex change (it doesn't work _completely_, usually leaving the blood drinker intersex, but many trans* people do it in this world since there is no other option with their level of technology in terms of physically transitioning). The conflict being that there is a good chance that her blood disease will kick in if she becomes female-bodied.

For the group in question, I'd say maybe a third of them are accepting of her identity while the others are at least a little bothered by it - maybe one or two of them being outwardly disgusted.


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## Devora (Apr 26, 2013)

If i remember right, Transgender people usually refer to themselves by the Gender they identify with the most.


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## Ophiucha (Apr 26, 2013)

Yes, generally. Hannah does this, referring to herself as a woman and using feminine terms. But I need to find a way to bring up the fact that she is transgender as opposed to cisgender without laying it on thick or being offensive.


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## Feo Takahari (Apr 26, 2013)

If she's not a perspective character, this could be tricky to imply. The only things I can think of are:

* Noticeably bristles at insults to transgender people.

* In a situation where others might strip down (e.g. swimming), refuses and remains covered.

It sounds like she or her girlfriend gets some perspective, so you might be able to mention it in narration.

Edit: To be clear, I don't think you need to make it 100% clear until the plot point comes up. You can get away with just having a bit of foreshadowing.


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## Kit (Apr 26, 2013)

You might make glancing references to childhood- assuming that she didn't begin to identify as female until a little later in life.


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## Ophiucha (Apr 26, 2013)

I haven't quite decided yet if she's going to be a perspective character - right now, I only have one (and it isn't her or her girlfriend) and I'm debating whether I _want _to have the multiple perspective character thing going on. It's kind of tough to pull off, and I don't usually like it. If I do end up doing that, though, Hannah'll definitely be one of them.

Thanks for the suggestions.  I don't know if the second is going to come up, but the first very well might, at least in a subtle way. The main plot line is about a group of primarily women overthrowing a primarily male government, so perhaps one of them could make a comment about 'men being lead by their (your choice of euphemism for male genitalia)', and she'd be bothered by them comparing it to masculinity? Just sort of brainstorming, but I think it'd work better than something that is specifically about transgender people, since I don't have any others in the main group besides her, who isn't out.


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## Ophiucha (Apr 26, 2013)

Kit said:


> You might make glancing references to childhood- assuming that she didn't begin to identify as female until a little later in life.



Ah, that is pretty good, too! And it actually could work well with what I've got so far, since she is a character whose back story is going to be brought up in some detail. I know she began identifying as a girl sometime before she was sixteen, but given the setting's prejudices, I doubt she would have been willing to accept that part of herself from the moment she was born, and her back story includes people who would have known her since she was a child, so perhaps there could be hints of that when she discusses her past. Thanks!


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## Chilari (Apr 26, 2013)

I occasionally see tweets from transwomen I follow (well, one of them anyway) complaining about getting called sir or "just not passing today", getting harrassment and so on. If you can weave that sort of thing in, would that suit your needs?

You could always try finding a transgender support forum and asking the people there about their experiences. Or, in fact, take a look at a series I've recently seen where trans people of a variety of different identities have answered questions from curious cis people, put online by brilliant musician CN Lester whose albums I own and recommend, especially Ashes. The masterlist of questions and responses about trans issues is here. It's not exactly what you've asked but it is a useful resource on this topic, and a point from which you might be able to get answers from better informed people than me.


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## Jabrosky (Apr 26, 2013)

Is this a pseudo-medieval world you are writing? If so, how would a society without Tumblr even have a concept of "transgender" people?


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## Ophiucha (Apr 26, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> Is this a pseudo-medieval world you are writing? If so, how would a society without Tumblr even have a concept of "transgender" people?



I laughed at the tumblr jab.

The setting isn't directly equivalent to anywhere or any time on Earth, but I'd place it somewhere between 1750's and 1950's America overall. The term 'transgender' doesn't exist in this world, but the concept certainly exists and is known - if not accepted - by many people, which isn't particularly anachronistic. This world's technology, religion, and magic all offer a different range of gender identities to the ones that exist now - Hannah's religion has two gendered gods who 'speak' to those of the same gender, so in her culture Hannah simply says that she hears the goddess' voice instead of the god's.

There are some minor groups of people who identify as 'third genders', and smaller culture's ideas based on various traditional genders (there is one character who comes from a group based on Galli), but they don't have too much to do with Hannah's plot line or the story in general.


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## Jabrosky (Apr 26, 2013)

In all honesty I am confused as to what it even means to be transgendered. It sounds to me like a trend which has people claiming that they "feel" like they belong to the opposite sex because they don't act or think like a stereotypical man or woman. Come to think of it, that's actually a pretty sexist way to think.


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## Steerpike (Apr 26, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> In all honesty I am confused as to what it even means to be transgendered. It sounds to me like a trend which has people claiming that they "feel" like they belong to the opposite sex because they don't act or think like a stereotypical man or woman. Come to think of it, that's actually a pretty sexist way to think.



From discussions with a friend who was transgendered, I think that's too light a way of looking at it. In her experience, it had nothing to do with acting or not acting like a stereotypical person of their biological sex. Rather, it was a very deep, profound sense that their biological sex was the one wrong, with respect to who they actually were. It didn't have to do with outside perceptions, but wither her own innate certainty that it was wrong.

For example, a gay man may not act like a stereotypical male (assuming there is such a thing), and is of course attracted to other men. Likewise, a physical male who is transgendered may be attracted to men and also may act more like a traditional view of a female than a male. So what's the difference? It seems to me the difference is that gay men are at home in their biological sex. They're male, and they're attracted to other male. The physical male who is transgendered considers herself female on a much deeper, more fundamental level. She's not a feminine man, or a man who is attracted to other men, but instead a female who happens to have the physical characteristics of a male. I think it is a mistake to dismiss it too lightly as some kind of reaction to outside views of traditional sexuality imposed on the person.

EDIT: I should add, the transgender person I know says she knew from as far back as she can remember - maybe three years old? Earlier? - that her biological sex was wrong. If we can assume she isn't lying or creating something in her mind, it becomes harder to cast the transgendered person as some kind of misplaced reaction to societal conceptions of sexuality. My understanding is her experience is quite common.


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## Ophiucha (Apr 26, 2013)

There's definitely a lot more to it than that, and it is something that has existed a lot longer than we've had a word for it (which I believe popped up in the 60s? correct me if I'm wrong on that one). The main thing I've always heard about is dysphoria, where you feel... weird?, I guess? about the body parts you have, and your lack of certain others. Usually the genitals, but I've heard trans* men describe how uncomfortable they are with their lack of facial hair and taking hormones to grow it out (though some cisgender women do grow facial hair so that isn't always clear cut). There's a social aspect to it, too, I suppose, but there's a lot at work and the idea of it has existed in many cultures throughout history. Two spirit in some Native American cultures, hijra in India, etc..


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## Jabrosky (Apr 26, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> From discussions with a friend who was transgendered, I think that's too light a way of looking at it. It her experience, it had nothing to do with acting or not acting like a stereotypical person of their biological sex. Rather, it was a very deep, profound sense that their biological sex was the one wrong, with respect to who they actually were. It didn't have to do with outside perceptions, but wither her own innate certainty that it was wrong.
> 
> For example, a gay man may not act like a stereotypical male (assuming there is such a thing), and is of course attracted to other men. Likewise, a physical male who is transgendered may be attracted to men and also may act more like a traditional view of a female than a male. So what's the difference? It seems to me the difference is that gay men are at home in their biological sex. They're male, and they're attracted to other male. The physical male who is transgendered considers herself female on a much deeper, more fundamental level. She's not a feminine man, or a man who is attracted to other men, but instead a female who happens to have the physical characteristics of a male. I think it is a mistake to dismiss it too lightly as some kind of reaction to outside views of traditional sexuality imposed on the person.



And how on earth would that guy know what it feels like to be a woman without having any female anatomy himself? How does he know women have a distinct way of feeling that "real" men lack? Again, the whole concept reeks of gender stereotyping.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Apr 26, 2013)

There's a broad difference between physiology and psychology. I'm no expert on transgender people but the psychological effects of any condition can be just as, if not more powerful, than physiological aspects.


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## Steerpike (Apr 26, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> And how on earth would that guy know what it feels like to be a woman without having any female anatomy himself? How does he know women have a distinct way of feeling that "real" men lack? Again, the whole concept reeks of gender stereotyping.



No, it doesn't. I'm talking about a sense of biological wrongness, not some kind of behavioral wrongness. It has nothing at all to do with gender stereotyping. That's a rather condescending viewpoint, and suggests that someone you are in a better position to tell me what the person is feeling and why than they are themselves. Makes no sense.


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## Ophiucha (Apr 26, 2013)

Since we're discussing the range of non-binary gender identities, I'll specify that for Hannah, I am using a relatively modern, Western idea of transgender to define Hannah's character, with her experiencing some degree of gender dysphoria and desiring an anatomically female body, while living her life presenting as a woman in the interim, changing her name to something feminine, wearing women's clothing, and identifying by titles that are intended for women (such as the equivalent of 'Miss'). Most relevantly to the story, she and her girlfriend are regarded as homosexual by the girlfriend's parents and their church despite the fact that Hannah has male genitalia (and her girlfriend has female genitalia). So for all intents and purposes, she is living as a woman, but I need a few good hints at her being transgender.


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## Jabrosky (Apr 26, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> No, it doesn't. I'm talking about a sense of biological wrongness, not some kind of behavioral wrongness. It has nothing at all to do with gender stereotyping. That's a rather condescending viewpoint, and suggests that someone you are in a better position to tell me what the person is feeling and why than they are themselves. Makes no sense.


If anyone's being presumptuous here, it's guys who claim to know what being female feels like despite having never been women themselves. How could our "transgender" person sense this "biological wrongness" about their sex unless they've been fed preconceptions on how men and women are supposed to feel? You might as well say that white people who listen to hip-hop music must be "transracial"!


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## Steerpike (Apr 26, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> If anyone's being presumptuous here, it's guys who claim to know what being female feels like despite having never been women themselves. How could our "transgender" person sense this "biological wrongness" about their sex unless they've been fed preconceptions on how men and women are supposed to feel? You might as well say that white people who listen to hip-hop music must be "transracial"!



That's an absurd analogy, frankly.

It's not like our species has a few thousand possible biological sexes to choose from. If someone has a deep, innate sense that their biological sex is the wrong one, it doesn't take a great deal of mental acuity to predict what the correct one is probably going to be.


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## Jabrosky (Apr 26, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> If someone has a deep, innate sense that their biological sex is the wrong one, it doesn't take a great deal of mental acuity to predict what the correct one is probably going to be.


You keep on glossing over my main point: *how would they know that they were born into the wrong sex if they have never actually been the opposite sex*? How could a guy "have a deep, innate sense that his biological sex is the wrong one" if he has never actually experienced being a girl? In order to know whether he was born into the wrong sex, he would need to know how the "typical" man felt, how the "typical" woman felt, and compare his own feelings and personality with these ideals. That's where the gender stereotyping comes in.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Apr 26, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> You keep on glossing over my main point: how would they know that they were born into the wrong sex if they have never actually been the opposite sex? How could a guy "have a deep, innate sense that his biological sex is the wrong one" if he has never actually experienced being a girl? In order to know whether he was born into the wrong sex, he would need to know how the "typical" man felt, how the "typical" woman felt, and compare his own feelings and personality with these ideals. That's where the gender stereotyping comes in.



Transgender people experience their transgender identity in a variety of ways. Its too simplistic to merely say "they've never been a woman so how would they know". 

Awareness concerning transgender identity can occur at any age as well, which implies that while some may learn of these differences, others know innately. Some transgender people report these types of feelings back in their earliest memories. 

I have two children, one boy & one girl. Children, at the outset, are relatively gender neutral when left to their own devices (no societal pushes towards wearing pink dresses for example). I'll tell you from my own experience, children can have an innate sense of who they are without being taught their gender roles as male or female. Is it that much of a stretch to think that a small percentage would also know innately who they are and slowly realize their view of self may not conform to societal gender expectations? To think otherwise shows a rather limited understanding of psychology and probabilities in general.

Again, I'm no expert. There are other members who are undoubtedly more qualified than I to discuss transgender issues.


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## Feo Takahari (Apr 26, 2013)

Transsexuality (here defined as the desire to change one's sex through surgery) seems in some cases to be related to phantom limb syndrome. For whatever reason, the individual's mental map of his or her body has different genitals than his or her actual body, to the point that they may even experience phantom sensations in the "limbs". Generally speaking, psychiatric attempts to change this mental map have a history of not turning out well--the best we can do is ease sensations of difference, and in this case physical therapy is the simplest solution.

(Granted, there are many other reasons for being transgender.)

Edit: To be honest, I don't get any of that at all, or for that matter any of the explanations I've heard of being transgender. I've never understood gender identity one way or another, and I don't expect I ever will. But it matters enough to other people that I don't think it's worth trying to argue with them.


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## Ophiucha (Apr 26, 2013)

Casual reminder to keep the thread on track of _fictional_ (ideally fantasy) portrayals of trans* characters. Try not to get too much into your own personal beliefs about these identities, though defining them is still useful for the discussion if there is ambiguity. Thanks!


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## Nameback (Apr 27, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> You keep on glossing over my main point: *how would they know that they were born into the wrong sex if they have never actually been the opposite sex*? How could a guy "have a deep, innate sense that his biological sex is the wrong one" if he has never actually experienced being a girl? In order to know whether he was born into the wrong sex, he would need to know how the "typical" man felt, how the "typical" woman felt, and compare his own feelings and personality with these ideals. That's where the gender stereotyping comes in.



Well, to tread somewhat controversially (so bear with me), being transgender has some things in common with other types of physical dysphoria. For example, think of anorexics or bulimics -- these people often have a profound, innate feeling of their bodies being disgusting, wrong, unpleasant, ugly, etc. Regardless of the actual physical makeup of their bodies, this is how the feel, very strongly, to the point that their eating becomes disordered. Being in their own bodies actually makes them miserable, and they attempt to rectify this with disordered eating (which of course endangers their health and often fails to rectify their self-loathing anyway). 

Now, the analogy breaks down in the sense that we don't pathologize trans-identities as mental illnesses, nor should we. Here's why: one, it doesn't hurt anyone for a trans person to express their own perceived gender identity. It doesn't hurt them, it doesn't hurt you, and it doesn't hurt me. I mean, even if it _were_ just people deciding to try something on for fun (and realistically who in the world would do that, considering all the discrimination, violence, and bigotry that trans people receive? Not to mention costly hormones and surgery?), what would be wrong with that? Why begrudge it? 

But, of course, it's deeper than that. It's a dysphoria. The brain rejects the body, and the disconnect between internal, perceived gender and physical sex causes acute suffering. Unlike anorexia, though, which is pretty clearly caused by environmental factors (like a society that praises thinness, and life stressors), transgender people typically express dysphoric symptoms from very early in childhood, and of course they're doing things that run exactly counter to their social conditioning, implying that the cause is likely biological.

And indeed, research has shown that people who are transgender often have brains that are characteristic of their opposite gender. For example, the corpus callosum is larger in women than in men, and people who are male by birth but who are transgender often have corpus callosums that are the size of women's, not men's. Therefore, unlike anorexia and other types of body dysphoria which are caused by the environment or disordered thoughts, transgendered identity cannot be changed by the modification of environment or thought. The only solution, then, to the person's suffering, is to change the way they present themselves and the way they are treated by society.


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## Nameback (Apr 27, 2013)

Hey sorry Ophi, I just saw your last post, haha.

Anyway, I'm not sure why you need to beat around the bush so much? If she's a transwoman in a transphobic society, this is a very defining part of her character. It will be talked about _repeatedly_, every single day of her life, by people who interact with her. At least, this is my impression from the time period you gave as inspiring the setting. When the gaps of privilege in society are tremendous, the privileged usually feel quite free to insult, demean, and brutalize the oppressed class. No one in such a society (beyond those who know her personally and who are supportive purely because of familial or friendly bonds) would feel the need to censor their actions or express decency to Hannah. 

Hell, even in our 2013 society, most cis people feel very much entitled to harass transpeople and violence against transpeople is unfortunately still very common. And, in a way, it makes sense -- transpeople are even more threatening to gender norms than queer people. Any character in your book who benefits from their society's gender norms or who is heavily invested in them will likely feel disgust and anger towards Hannah. 

And, in turn, all this focus on her gender presentation will shape her character--how she acts, what she believes, and so on. I can't imagine how this is something you can "hint" at. It seems that it would be glaringly obvious and something that would come up constantly. Now, I am assuming that she isn't capable of passing perfectly, because you said something to that effect? But if I'm wrong then ignore all of this. 

I'm also writing a trans character in my book--she is male by birth, but identifies as female. It is something that get talked about point-blank (the book takes place in a classical society), and she is overt about it. The 'twist,' if you will, is that she is a warrior by trade, for reasons of upbringing, and this is her only marketable skill (in a society with a male-only warrior culture). Therefore, even though she seeks to have her physical sex changed by a sorcerer, she wishes to remain a warrior. This is meant to illustrate to the reader that transgender identity doesn't necessarily correspond to any sort of normative gender expression or sexual orientation -- transwomen may wish to present in a masculine way, even though they are very much women.


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## Alexandra (Apr 27, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> And how on earth would that guy know what it feels like to be a woman without having any female anatomy himself?



Gender, as in gender identity, is a product of nature and nurture; many people believe nurture plays a greater role in determining one's gender than nature. If that is true, and I believe it is, a person born a biological male would not necessarily need to have a woman's anatomy in order to "feel like a woman". Conversely a person born with the male package but raised with absolutely minimal contact with other people would likely not know how to "feel like a man" because of the lack of male nurturing. In short, the package does not solely determine the gender.


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## Jabrosky (Apr 27, 2013)

If there's a biological basis for transgenderism, than I stand corrected about the whole thing.


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## Ophiucha (Apr 27, 2013)

Nameback said:


> -snipped-



Thanks for your reply! Hannah in my story is part of a female revolution about giving women equal rights to men, so there is definitely some within their group (of the ones that know/suspect Hannah of being transgender) who are a bit bitter about there being a "man" in the inner circle at the top. Her career isn't legally only male-only because it isn't _legal _at all, since she is a hired arsonist, but I could probably include a brief exchange where somebody says something about 'expecting a man' that makes her bristle? I think that could work. She isn't a perspective character as of yet, though, so a lot of the nuances and exchanges between the people who suspect her of being transgender aren't being heard by my main character... also, my main character is _blind_, so the only thing she really has a chance of noticing is something up with her voice, which I hadn't planned on being a 'tip-off' of sorts. I could change my mind with that one, though.

But I'm still at a point where even though she might not pass well with everyone she meets, she's still not 'out of the closet' and there are at least a few people who don't suspect her of being transgender.

Definitely giving me some things to think about in terms of how early to include a conversation about it. Mostly, I am beginning to think I should just cave and make this a story with multiple POV characters just to save me the trouble of trying to handle this character with only the blind one to lend her perspective to the situation... but there are a lot of good reasons to make both of them perspective characters (namely that the two are equally important to overthrowing the government; Hannah spends the climax of the novel burning down all of the police stations and military bases within city limits while Molly is poisoning the heads of state), so I probably should just do it, anyway, even if Hannah's gender wasn't an issue.


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## Alexandra (Apr 27, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> If there's a biological basis for transgenderism, than I stand corrected about the whole thing.



I've no idea whether there's a biological basis for transgenderism, I've never thought much about the basis at all; the fact that the condition exists, and has forever I think, is enough for me.


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## Nameback (Apr 28, 2013)

Ophiucha said:


> snip



this sounds pretty rad!


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## saellys (May 1, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> If there's a biological basis for transgenderism, than I stand corrected about the whole thing.



Knowing all I can possibly know of you through the Internet, I have to wonder how you would respond if someone said the same thing about Aspergers and autism. Neurotypical people frequently misunderstand the condition and presume it's "all in their heads" in much the same way many cissexual people view transgender people. There's also a large Tumblr community of Aspy/autistic people sharing their experiences, supporting each other, and calling out people who say ignorant (or knowingly reprehensible) things, so someone who didn't actually know an autistic person could claim this was a "trend" which only existed on Tumblr. They could also easily imply that autism is only valid if there's a biological basis, which excludes all kinds of factors that cannot be reliably detected (or at least, not reliably detected early in life, as evidenced by how long it takes to get a diagnosis of autism for young children). 

Sorry for getting personal and continuing the derailment of this thread--I just want to point out the parallels. Transgenderism and autism are equally foreign concepts to many people. Placing limits on what makes either of them valid strikes me as silly at best, and extremely harmful at worst. 

BACK ON TRACK: Ophiucha, the conflict Hannah faces in her group of revolutionaries sounds very compelling and relatable to trans* people who face similar prejudices. It got me thinking about my roller derby league. We're chartered with the Women's Flat Track Derby Association, and WFTDA's gender policy requires skaters to be living as women and to have sex hormones within the medically accepted range for female. While this still excludes a lot of people who can't afford hormone replacement therapy, it's about as open as a gender policy for an organization that has "women" in the name can possibly be. Nevertheless, if my league had trans* female skaters in it, I'm honestly not sure some of the skaters would be okay with it. And if they couldn't get behind it when our governing body has a policy in place for accepting trans* female skaters, how much harder would it be to find acceptance in an organization where policies like that are _not_ in place?


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## Kit (May 1, 2013)

There was a thread recently on one of my martial arts boards about Fallon Fox, a male-to-female transsexual MMA fighter. Most of the guys on that board tend to be fairly cool- there's not a lot of homophobia or sexism displayed there- but there was a still a surprising amount of fearful ignorance and poor attitudes about people who are transsexual.

Last year at one of the biggest and longest-running Pagan festivals in America, there was an incident where a male-to-female transsexual was barred from participating in a women's ritual. Granted, the facilitator of that particular rit was a community leader in her 60's, so sorta one of the "old guard"- but it was still an unpleasant shock to see that in the PAGAN community, of all places (where it's really a stretch to be too odd to be accepted!). The woman called the leader out:

http://melissa281.blogspot.com/2012/06/psg-my-truth.html

(that took some brass ovaries), and pretty much the entire community rose up behind her. Everybody did a podcast news conference a couple of days later, complete with group hugs and tears.

(I believe there was a similar controversy at Pantheacon a couple years ago, but I wasn't there for that one, so I can't really speak on it.... yet again, a population of people that you'd expect to be more tolerant and behave better than that) 

So it's getting better for trans people, at least among the younger and more liberal populations, but there's still quite a bit of misunderstanding and prejudice floating around.


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## A. E. Lowan (May 28, 2013)

This article popped up today, and I thought it might make it worthwhile to necro this thread...

'Boy or Girl?' Gender a New Challenge for Schools - ABC News

Now, this is, of course, about small children, but our adult characters were all children once.  And, I think a very tell quote from the article is...



> According to a 2010 National Transgender Discrimination Survey, 41 percent of transgender people surveyed said they had attempted suicide. That figure rose to 51 percent for those who said they'd also been bullied, harassed, assaulted or expelled because they were transgender or gender nonconforming at school.


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