# Magic System Concept



## Asura Levi (May 13, 2013)

Ok, this is more an idea that I want to share. 
In all the variety of magic system I tried to envision, the following seemed more 'orinal' when dealing with elements.

It basically has the four major classical elements divided as the Cardinal Points of a compass, in the following order (reading clockwise from top): Fire - Earth - Water - Wind (then back to fire).
As usual, Fire and Water are opposed as are Wind and Earth.

Additional to this, that are four other 'sub'-elements distributed in the fashion of the Ordinal Points: Metal, Wood, Ice, Lightning.

The total would read like this: Fire [Metal] Earth [Wood] Water [Ice] Wind [Lightning] Fire.

The catch here would be that every single being is born with some affinity with one of the cardinal, thus having 100% compatibility with said element, 33% with the adjacent, 11% with the opposite, 66% with the adjacent 'ordinal' element and 22% with the opposite ordinal.

So, someone born with Fire compatibility would look like: Fire: 100%; Metal/Lightning: 66%; Wind/Earth: 33%; Ice/Wood: 22%; Water: 11%.

All that said, it isn't the norm to be born with the 'cardinal' elements, some get their 'magic compass' shifted and born with full compatibility with one of the 'ordinal', lets say, Wood.
It is only that the 'cardinal mages' are the most common, like, right-handed people (not related, just an example).

I know it sounds weird to have someone with fire skills being able to use Ice, which should be a complete opposite as much as water, with the double of compatibility, but I couldn't think in a different way to arrange it. 
Also, I'm not very happy about Fire and Earth 'ordinal' being Metal, (Lava is completely rulled out).

That is one more undeveloped aspect, it is based on the four states of matter: Solid, Liquid, Gas and Plasma(or Energy). That would act as a sub-compass which would affect the main, effectively making each 'personal magic compass' more unique than it is.
But I haven't figure out a good way in doing so.

So, if any one has any tips, feedback, idea, whatever; I'm here to listen (or read).
In the end, I just wanted to share it.


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## AnnaBlixt (May 13, 2013)

If you put the compass in the order Water - Earth - Wind - Fire  (as in the old game Darkside of Xeen) you would end up with other in between-elements. To me, this is more balanced, since I don't see water and fire as opposites any more than Wind and Earth. 

Water [mud] Earth [dust] Wind [lightning] Fire [steam]   That is the element compass from Darkside of Xeen, with in between elements. 

If you put Fire beside Earth, I think you'll end up with metal, coal or magma. Why are you unhappy with metal? I think it's a way better ordinal than Ice (ice is just cold water).


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## Addison (May 13, 2013)

It sounds like you're thinking way too much into this. 

From what I've read, magic in the fantasy is the element of wonder. There's no explanation, no facts, no equations. The fact that it works and has its limits and feels real is what matters. 

It also sounds like you're questioning something besides yourself. Did you read this magic somewhere? Are you basing it off something else you read? It helps, true, but to make it fit your story you need to take a breath, take a break, and just watch your story play in your head and watch the characters as they battle or practice their magic. Let the story tell you how it works.


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## AnnaBlixt (May 13, 2013)

Yeah... unless you're writing a roleplaying game or a roleplay-based adventure novel, I don't see how it is relevant to quantify the affinity for magic this way. And I really can't figure out how you can make ice one of the basis, and not have steam on the other side. I do think that this compass will limit your story. 

Magic can have rules and explanations - but if you are going to quantify it this way, it really becomes borderline science fiction - and if you are going down that road, you really need to consider the implications for the story.


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## Addison (May 13, 2013)

The three keys for a believable magic are: S,D,C
Scarcity-how many in the world can cast magic.
Difficulty-simple or easy to learn and use
Cost-nothing is free, not even magic.


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## Asura Levi (May 13, 2013)

AnnaBlixt: That is anything like that anywhere? Lovely, would take a look in this Darkside of Xeen for sure.

Addison: No, I haven't read anything like that. I believe that one of the 'system' that spawned this idea was the way the elements are used in Naruto, which is nowhere near similar. 
And about the SDC:
S: Feel. Even if everyone is 'blessed' in one of the elements, to have the 'stamina' (here called Sheut), you need to have a bigger affinity that came down from your grandfathers, like a genetic lottery.
D: Hard to learn, instable, in many cases, plain wild force.
C: It eat out the user's life and sanity. One of the best advice that an old and almost insane sage give to his 'student' is: do not use it for anything, at maximum, to give a small help with some task but not to solve the problem with magic alone.

In the end, as I said in the begging, I is some concept I wanted to share. In my current WIP that is no way I could fit it, since one of the main characters is a necromant and in this system that is no space for necromancy. Maybe I just make it some chart that alchemists-scholars made to try understand the things, like we have the table of elements, without truly understanding it.


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## shangrila (May 14, 2013)

Yeah, I don't like having ice as a specific element when water is there. They're too similar.

I also have to admit that the whole idea of people being able to use most, if not all, of the other elements is kind of confusing. You'd need to have some sort of defined scale, in my opinion, that would clearly state how much someone could with, say, their 11% element (with 100% being able to do everything).

It's not a bad start, it just seems to need some fine tuning.


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## Asura Levi (May 14, 2013)

About the % in using magic, it would be how powerful the spell can be and also how reliable. So, anything that is not your own 'element' would be quite risky.

And about the Ice, I don't know, I aways viewed it that way, guess you can blame Toya from YuYu Hakusho.

However nothing about this concept is decisive, it is only a concept after all.
Anyway, thank you all for the thoughts about it.


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## shangrila (May 16, 2013)

Well, it is your system, if you want to have ice then go for it.

And I see how that percentage system works. So, basically, everyone can do everything, it's just a LOT more risky for an 11% to pull off their spell? Nice. I like that. It's a good way to counter balance the elements so you don't fall into the old "water beats fire beats etc beats water" routine.


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## Mindfire (May 16, 2013)

I think you should align Fire with either East or West, since the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Or you could align Fire with South, since it's generally more associated with "hot" than the other directions. Also, instead of using ice for an ordinal between water and wind, I would use "spirit"/"chi"/"life", since water is fundamental to almost all life and wind/air is often associated with the soul/spirit, e.g. the "breath of life". I agree with the others that ice and water have too much overlap, seeing as ice is just solid water. But then again, my approach to Elemental Powers has been HEAVILY influenced by Avatar: The Last Airbender.


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## Mindfire (May 16, 2013)

Addison said:


> The three keys for a believable magic are: S,D,C
> Scarcity-how many in the world can cast magic.
> Difficulty-simple or easy to learn and use
> Cost-nothing is free, not even magic.



I wouldn't say this is a hard and fast rule. More like a guideline. In my own WIP:

Scarcity: there are entire civilizations so gifted in magic that it's ingrained into their cultural identity. In fact, only one person in all of recorded history is known to have been born without magic despite coming from a magical heritage. Of course, this is counterbalanced by the fact that the magical cultures are outnumbered by non-magical cultures. But full disclosure, I'm not sure if the non-magical cultures simply lack the _ability_ to use magic, or have simply forgotten/rejected it but still have the hidden potential.

Difficulty: not too much greater than learning any other new skill. Depending on the magic type, I'd compare it to learning a martial art, how to dance, or to play a musical instrument. It takes years of dedication to master it, but there are basics that anyone can learn in a few minutes if they have the patience.

Cost: here's where my approach is different. Dare I say, radically different. Fantasy is known for things like "using magic saps your energy/life force" and "death pays for life", etc. But I decided to junk all that. In my universe, magic is a divine gift, and therefore free. (This idea is rooted in my personal spiritual beliefs. I'll spare you the theology.) The "cost" boils down to nothing more than time and effort. There are some metrics and rubrics that I use "behind the scenes" to keep track of what characters can and can't do so things stay consistent, but the seams are well hidden. There are no obvious hard rules visible to the reader.


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## Asura Levi (May 16, 2013)

Tweaking the things a bit, I ended up with: Fire [Steam] Water [Mist] Wind [Dust] Earth [Ashes??] Fire

In this way, the Ordinary Compass became more exclusive since they are pretty much similar, but if I want to keep the 'sequence', the Earth - Fire iteration became problematic, or is it ashes, like the ones it came from vulcanos, sound enough?

Mindfire, for some reason, south is always cold for me (maybe is because where I'm from, south Brazil, the cold Brazil). But the East is pretty good way in displaying it.
Also, I never really determined fire to be north, I just put it that way in order to 'show' it. But I liked the idea. Fire = East.


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## Mindfire (May 16, 2013)

Asura Levi said:


> Tweaking the things a bit, I ended up with: Fire [Steam] Water [Mist] Wind [Dust] Earth [Ashes??] Fire
> 
> In this way, the Ordinary Compass became more exclusive since they are pretty much similar, but if I want to keep the 'sequence', the Earth - Fire iteration became problematic, or is it ashes, like the ones it came from vulcanos, sound enough?
> 
> ...



Any reason why you decided to abandon the idea of making Fire/Water and Earth/Wind opposite pairs? Because they are opposite (in a yin/yang sense) in many ways. Fire burns and tears down, water nourishes and replenishes. Earth is solid and immovable, wind is constantly in a state of change. Also, I think you had it right the first time when you made the Fire/Earth ordinal metal. Steam and mist are practically the same thing, and it seems a shame to neglect lightning. So my suggestion would be (clockwise from the top):

Wind [Lightning] Fire [Metal] Earth [Wood] Water [Spirit] Wind


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## Asura Levi (May 16, 2013)

Not particularly any reason, just experimenting.
But for an ice substitute for the water-wind ordinal, spirit/life/chi sounds too much like Heart from Captain Planet, it just seems something out of place, since all of the others are pretty much 'material'.


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## Mindfire (May 16, 2013)

Asura Levi said:


> Not particularly any reason, just experimenting.
> But for an ice substitute for the water-wind ordinal, spirit/life/chi sounds too much like Heart from Captain Planet, it just seems something out of place, since all of the others are pretty much 'material'.



Here's a scheme that ditches the traditional opposites:

Wind [Lightning] Fire [Metal] Water [Wood] Earth [Glass] Wind

In the second scheme, I put metal between fire and water because (ignoring the mining of the ore from the earth) those are the two forces prominent in its creation. Fire births it, water quenches it. (Yes, sometimes things other than water are used but let's ignore that too.) I suggested glass, since you don't like spirit, because its essentially a higher form of sand/dust (in the wind), and it's light and transparent, like the wind. That one's a bit of a stretch, but they can't all be genius I suppose.


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## Asura Levi (May 16, 2013)

One a second thought, returning to the old model, with fire/water - earth/wind oposites, I can just left the water-wind ordinary empty. Something like the archmages and schoolars are still trying to discover.
In this way I would still have plants and lightning and also metal (which I'm not that found but still..).

The think is that I could let the ice there, is my concept as someone pointed out. But I open it up to the public so I should take some thoughts in account. And after a while, that icy thing is becoming silly (for the same reason I ruled out magma), it is just one existing element in another form

Anyway, I should probably stop thinking about it or else I will never do nothing practical with it.


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## Mindfire (May 16, 2013)

You could sort of put Glass between Wind and Water as well. Or you could use thunder if you think about it as being separate from lightning.


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## shangrila (May 16, 2013)

I kind of like glass as an element. You could use it as an illusion school, since it can bend light.

Plus, it really is out of left field. I know I personally haven't read anything with a glass element.


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## Ireth (May 16, 2013)

I'd put Glass between Earth and Fire, since glass is made from silica, which I believe is found in sand.


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## Mindfire (May 17, 2013)

Ireth said:


> I'd put Glass between Earth and Fire, since glass is made from silica, which I believe is found in sand.



You could put it there, but that would leave metal out in the cold and one ordinal slot still unaccounted for.


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## Addison (May 17, 2013)

Maybe instead of glass it can be crystal. That could be better with illusions.


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## Asura Levi (May 18, 2013)

Well, that was a lot of feedback, much more than I expect I would get.
This is still under-development and can be changed or scraped, still, that is a lot of ideas here that I may, and will, take into consideration in future, specially about glass/cristal and illusion magic.

So, thank you all guys.

As a side note, I like to think this system, the 'magic compass', as something the schoolars of this era had made up trying to better understand the magic, it make sense for them but that are still many aspects that are not fully covered by it, so is not perfect.


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