# Who Are Your Favourite Anti-Heroes/Heroines?



## Laurence (May 25, 2015)

Preferably in fantasy! I'm aware that most antiheroes and antiheroines are in comics. How well do you think they work in fantasy?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> An antihero or antiheroine is a main character in a story who lacks conventional heroic qualities such as idealism, courage, and morality.


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## Russ (May 25, 2015)

Elric of Melnibone.  Thomas Covenant.  Jerry Cornelius.  

They work just fine in fantasy.


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## Tom (May 25, 2015)

Probably Eugenides from The Queen's Thief series. (He's the eponymous thief.)


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## Mythopoet (May 25, 2015)

The first anti-hero was Gilgamesh and mythologies are full of other examples. It's something that's been done over and over since the dawn of storytelling, not something mostly in comics. 

I would say that an anti-hero is not just a character who lacks conventional heroic qualities, but are actually the negative version of the hero. They are attempting to accomplish a "good", but the methods that they use are decidedly "evil". Most MCs are neither heroes nor anti-heroes, they're somewhere in between. 

Probably my favorite anti-hero (or at least the first one that comes to mind) is Lelouch vi Britannia from the anime series Code Geass. One can understand and empathize with his motivations and the goal he is trying to accomplish, but as time goes on the methods he uses to achieve it become more and more questionable until it is clear that he is sacrificing his own morality, and becoming like his enemies, to reach his goal. I like him because he knows this and accepts it and also understands and accepts the consequences he will have to face for his actions. There is a nobility to him being willing to sacrifice himself in this way to achieve something for other people.


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## Feo Takahari (May 25, 2015)

He might not count, since he's not the central figure, but I have a soft spot for Impmon from Digimon Tamers. 

He starts out as something of a pest--rude, mischievous, picking fights all the time . . . but he's so pathetically weak that he never presents a serious threat. He wants to be strong and feared, but due to bad past experiences, he keeps rejecting any chance to join a team and grow stronger as part of a group. While other characters become increasingly powerful, he's left farther and farther behind, trying to improve himself without relying on anyone else.

In desperation, he goes to the villains for power, and they're willing to grant it to him if he'll promise to kill the main characters. He comes back with two guns, a motorcycle, a black leather vest, and attacks that can actually _hurt_ something. He calls himself Beelzemon now, but on the inside, he's the same as always, still obsessed with becoming stronger and reaching a point where no one can hurt him anymore.

There are several other characters who're important in what follows, but there are two you need to know about. One is Jeri, a sweet little girl with _massive_ abandonment issues. She latches onto the idea of a Digimon partner as a companion who will always love her and will never, ever leave her. The other is Leomon, the Digimon who partners with her. His backstory is never fully revealed, but he seems to deeply regret something in his past, and he wants to prevent others from going down the same path.

Beelzemon cuts a pretty impressive figure now, even taking out a fellow villain who thinks this is all crazy. But when he finally has the heroes corned, Leomon has the courage to stand up to him. He takes apart Beelzemon's motivations, tells him that "to have power is not to be strong," and refuses to let him hurt the children . . .



Spoiler: Spoiler



. . . And Beelzemon rips a freaking hole in Leomon's chest. First main character death in the entire franchise.

One of the other main characters flips the hell out, nearly gets the entire group killed, and eventually beats the stuffing out of Beelzemon. Jeri stops him from killing him, sobbing that she doesn't want anyone else dying because of her. Having his life spared by someone who had every reason to want him dead forces Beelzemon to think about what he's done, and he goes back and reconciles with the people who'd hurt him in the first place.

Jeri is in a very bad place emotionally, and this makes her a prime target for the central villain. It kidnaps her and emotionally tortures her for weeks on end by showing her distorted images of her worst memories, using her despair to heighten its powers. When the others go to rescue her, Beelzemon is alongside them, eager to atone for what he's done.

In the middle of a pitched battle, Beelzemon finds the . . . egg? Chrysalis? I don't even know what you'd call it . . . that Jeri is being held captive in, and batters the outside to try and force his way in. In desperation, he calls out for someone to give him the strength he needs, then busts a small hole with Leomon's signature attack. But being reminded of Leomon by the creature who killed him confuses and frightens Jeri, and she refuses to grab Beelzemon's hand even as the hole grows smaller and smaller.

Then the homing attack that's been chasing another character for the whole scene hits Beelzemon in the back, and he starts falling into an otherwordly goop that destroys anything it touches. All the while, he begs the others to forget about him, to let him fall, because they have to save Jeri.

They save him, of course, because this show isn't that mean. In one of the last scenes of the final episode, he tries to apologize to Jeri before he has to return home, and she finally forgives him.



Yeah, Digimon Tamers was pretty messed up. This is what happens when a kids' show is made by someone better known for creepy cyberpunk mindscrews.


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## MineOwnKing (May 25, 2015)

There is a difference between anti-hero and tragic-hero.

A tragic-hero is one that makes a fatal mistake.

I agree with Russ that Elric is an excellent example.

A little less known is Corum: The Prince in the Scarlet Robe, another anti-hero of Moorcock.

Corum is also a good fit because he lacks the traditional qualities of a hero.

The Corum stories are written so poorly it's almost a torture to read them, but I found something about Corum that appealed to me and so I was hooked into reading further.


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## WooHooMan (May 26, 2015)

I don't see any video game characters here so I'll mention some video game antiheroes I like.

Garrett from the Thief series is great.  He just wants to get shit done and get paid.  No questioning morality or tragic backstories or grand agendas - he's great in his simplicity and has a lot of charisma.  
He's a very "less is more" character.  I can't even really summarize what makes him great; 99% of his appeal is in execution.

I also really like the idea of Guybrush Threepwood from the Monkey Island series being an "antihero".  He does lie and steal often and he's mostly motivated by a want for glory and fortune.  However, unlike a lot of antiheroes, there's nothing complex or edgy about him.  He's really just a huge dork with an ego.

Then there's Kain and his nemesis Raziel from the Legacy of Kain series.  I don't even know where to begin with those two.  Needless to say, they're great. 

Also, it's nice to see some Moorecock love in this thread.  He's got some great characters.


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## Penpilot (May 26, 2015)

Favorite anti-heroes. The crew of the Serenity from the TV show Firefly. 

As for fantasy, I'm thinking you could classify a lot of the characters in Game of Thrones as anti-heroes, so I'll say any of the major characters from that.


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## T.Allen.Smith (May 26, 2015)

Monzcarro Murcatto - Joe Abercrombie's Best Served Cold

Sandor Clegane (The Hound) - GRRM's A Song of Ice & Fire (Game of Thrones) ***There's several that I'd put forth as an anti-hero, though they may not be considered traditional anti-heroes, and many aren't POV characters.

Walter White - Breaking Bad (Showtime)
Dexter - Dexter (Showtime)

I love deeply flawed characters. Many different types of anti-heroes fit that bill.


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## Ryan_Crown (May 26, 2015)

MineOwnKing said:


> The Corum stories are written so poorly it's almost a torture to read them, but I found something about Corum that appealed to me and so I was hooked into reading further.



I must admit this statement makes me very curious. I own the Corum books (bought them because I really enjoyed the Elric stories), but I haven't gotten around to reading them yet.

And I have to agree with Penpilot -- my first thought when it comes to anti-heroes is always the crew of the Serenity.


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## Russ (May 26, 2015)

Ryan_Crown said:


> I must admit this statement makes me very curious. I own the Corum books (bought them because I really enjoyed the Elric stories), but I haven't gotten around to reading them yet.
> 
> And I have to agree with Penpilot -- my first thought when it comes to anti-heroes is always the crew of the Serenity.



To offer a counter point, I quite like the Corum books and how they are written.  But that is a matter of personal taste.


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## MineOwnKing (May 26, 2015)

You know, there is a lot of things I liked but some other things are ...meh.

example (spoiler):

_His new hand had murdered a kindly and innocent creature! 

"Oh, evil thing! Rhalina was right! You have made me a murderer!"_

...meh..


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## Miskatonic (May 27, 2015)

Well, Clint Eastwood's the man with no name character is certainly up there.


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## psychotick (May 27, 2015)

Hi,

I like Michael Moorcock's eternal champions too. Corum of the silver hand was good - but conventional. Jerry Cornelius in the other hand was far more interesting. And Elric obviously was cursed.

However favourite antiheroes - the Stainless Steel Rat slippery Jim Degrizz - always. Arther Dent, though I'm not really sure he's a hero of any sort. Thomas Covenant naturally - especially when he's contrasted with a true hero like Saltheart Foamfollower. Lestat de Lioncourt and I'm not even a vampire fan. Anthony Villiers - from Starwell and its sequels.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Russ (May 27, 2015)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> I like Michael Moorcock's eternal champions too. Corum of the silver hand was good - but conventional. Jerry Cornelius in the other hand was far more interesting. And Elric obviously was cursed.
> 
> ...



How could I forget Harry Harrison's immortal rat!  Also the main character of his Deathworld trilogy, the gambler Jason dinAlt would have to be added to my list.


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## Ryan_Crown (May 27, 2015)

I have to smile at the mention of the Stainless Steel Rat -- my dad always loved that character.


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## T.Allen.Smith (May 27, 2015)

Anyone like Al Swearengen? The foul-mouthed tavern owner / brothel pimp from Deadwood, played by Ian McShane.


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## Gurkhal (May 27, 2015)

Don't know if you will, or if I do, count him as an anti-hero but Jaime Lannisters has a special place with me.


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## Laurence (May 27, 2015)

Gurkhal said:


> Don't know if you will, or if I do, count him as an anti-hero but Jaime Lannisters has a special place with me.



Stabbing the mad king in the back was a good shout but it's implied that he's done many a naughty thing...including incest but I don't think incest is an evil act by any stretch; it's just a gross one.


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## T.Allen.Smith (May 27, 2015)

Laurence said:


> Stabbing the mad king in the back was a good shout but it's implied that he's done many a naughty thing...including incest but I don't think incest is an evil act by any stretch; it's just a gross one.


How about shoving a child out a tower window, in an attempt to murder him, to cover up the incest?


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## Laurence (May 27, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> How about shoving a child out a tower window, in an attempt to murder him, to cover up the incest?



Murder is so common in GoT that these things go straight over my head aha


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## ChasingSuns (May 27, 2015)

This is really difficult for me because really love anti-heroes. Captain Mal, Gene Starwind, Elric, The Hound, The Punisher, Spike Spiegel... the list goes on and on. I just really love heroes with a darker side to them


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## Stephyn Blackwood (Oct 19, 2015)

Hmmm... Got to be....

Jorg Ancarth - _The Broken Empire_ Trilogy by Mark Lawrence (He's so delightfully twisted and evil)

Sand Dan Glokta - _The First Law_ Trilogy by Joe Abercrombie

Prince Calder - _The First Law_ again (Cause Joe Abercrombie.)


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## thedarknessrising (Oct 19, 2015)

Would Han Solo count? Because if so, I choose him.


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## Steerpike (Oct 19, 2015)

Elric
Fafhrd and Gray Mouser (if they count)
the members of the Black Company
Ballas (I hated him, actually, which was interesting)
Logen Ninefingers
Faith
Spike
Beatrix (Kill Bill)
Nightfall
Conan (if he counts)
The Stainless Steel Rat
Severian


Those come to mind.


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## Androxine Vortex (Oct 20, 2015)

Malus Darkblade. The dark elf who damn near murders his entire family to get what he wants, yet he quite a pathetic character sometimes but that works in his favor.


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## thecoldembrace (Oct 20, 2015)

Raistlin Majere.... one of my favorite characters. Artemis Entreri is another good one. Jorg Ancrath.... one of the best antiheros. Nagash from warhammer is another.


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## spectre (Oct 21, 2015)

Clive Owen in Children of Men, Thom Merrilin, Spawn to name a few.

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## Miskatonic (Oct 21, 2015)

Mythopoet said:


> I would say that an anti-hero is not just a character who lacks conventional heroic qualities, but are actually the negative version of the hero. They are attempting to accomplish a "good", but the methods that they use are decidedly "evil". Most MCs are neither heroes nor anti-heroes, they're somewhere in between.
> 
> .



Great way to put it. Some think of the anti-hero as the mysterious badass that isn't all about justice and saving the day, but will occasionally help out the good guys because he/she isn't completely without morals. 

It's a little more than that.


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## Miskatonic (Oct 21, 2015)

ChasingSuns said:


> This is really difficult for me because really love anti-heroes. Captain Mal, Gene Starwind, Elric, The Hound, The Punisher, Spike Spiegel... the list goes on and on. I just really love heroes with a darker side to them



You see Gene Starwind as a true anti-hero? Interesting. I always thought of him as a reluctant hero with rather strong moral conviction that just needed some coaxing to come to the surface.


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## Miskatonic (Oct 21, 2015)

Would Dexter be considered an anti-hero? There's a lot to his code and his wavering between following and rejecting it. I guess perhaps it depends on whether or not people believe he's a true psychopath.


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## spectre (Oct 21, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> You see Gene Starwind as a true anti-hero? Interesting. I always thought of him as a reluctant hero with rather strong moral conviction that just needed some coaxing to come to the surface.


An anti-hero is someone whose morality is flawed but they are aligned with a good cause. In Beowulf the Danish King and Grendel are both anti-heroes. Dexter is a villain. His sister is an anti-hero.

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## FifthView (Oct 21, 2015)

I think Dexter is a "villain-hero."   But he doesn't strike me as being an anti-hero, because even when he does things that help out others—and much of what he does can't be categorized as helping others in a significant way—he's really doing those things for entirely selfish reasons or has little choice because...psychopath.


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## Heliotrope (Oct 21, 2015)

Tyler Durden (Fight Club, pretty much my all time favourite book/film). Did you know it was based on the Great Gatsby?

And both Jamie and Tyrion Lannister.


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## spectre (Oct 21, 2015)

Heliotrope said:


> Tyler Durden (Fight Club)


Is a figment.

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## spectre (Oct 21, 2015)

Professor Clump

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## spectre (Oct 21, 2015)

Do you think a hero who starts as an anti-hero but transitions into good is still an anti-hero or would u describe him/her by the transitory nature of the character. Maturation. It certainly isn't a Trickster figure.

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## Miskatonic (Oct 22, 2015)

Heliotrope said:


> Tyler Durden (Fight Club, pretty much my all time favourite book/film). Did you know it was based on the Great Gatsby?
> 
> And both Jamie and Tyrion Lannister.



Ed Norton's character would have to be the anti-hero since Durden is just part of his psyche.


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## Heliotrope (Oct 22, 2015)

I guess I see them as one and the same, since they are essentially the same person. He starts out as Tyler Durden as the antihero, and then the 'narrator' becomes the anti hero when Tyler Durden becomes the antagonist half way through.

If Tyler Durden is a figment then aren't all characters figments? I mean, Tyler Durden was a true, living, breathing flesh and blood character (the narrator) he was just the other side of the narrator's psyche. He still existed though, in the concept of the book. Aren't all characters just figments of the author's imagination? Though we accept them as 'real' in the context of the story.


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## Miskatonic (Oct 22, 2015)

Heliotrope said:


> I guess I see them as one and the same, since they are essentially the same person. He starts out as Tyler Durden as the antihero, and then the 'narrator' becomes the anti hero when Tyler Durden becomes the antagonist half way through.
> 
> If Tyler Durden is a figment then aren't all characters figments? I mean, Tyler Durden was a true, living, breathing flesh and blood character (the narrator) he was just the other side of the narrator's psyche. He still existed though, in the concept of the book. Aren't all characters just figments of the author's imagination? Though we accept them as 'real' in the context of the story.



Well Norton's character didn't realize that Durden wasn't a real person until the end. He was under the assumption that a real person was helping him to change his attitude and actions in life. 

A character like Dexter on the other hand realizes his dad isn't there, that he's dead, from the very beginning.


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## Heliotrope (Oct 22, 2015)

Thats what I mean though. That's why I consider him to be a real 'character' not just a figment. .


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## spectre (Oct 22, 2015)

Yeah you're right. But isn't that still just maturation of character?

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## FifthView (Oct 22, 2015)

thecoldembrace said:


> Raistlin Majere.... one of my favorite characters. Artemis Entreri is another good one. Jorg Ancrath.... one of the best antiheros. Nagash from warhammer is another.



I'm glad you mentioned Raistlin Majere.  It's been so long, I'd forgotten about him.  He was a favorite of mine at the time.


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## Heliotrope (Oct 22, 2015)

spectre said:


> Yeah you're right. But isn't that still just maturation of character?
> 
> Sent from my LGMS345 using Tapatalk



Maybe, when even when Durden transforms into the antagonist, the narrator is hardly a 'good guy'.


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## Miskatonic (Oct 22, 2015)

Heliotrope said:


> Maybe, when even when Durden transforms into the antagonist, the narrator is hardly a 'good guy'.



Yeah he pretends he has cancer so he can get some form of socialization in.


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## Miskatonic (Oct 22, 2015)

Heliotrope said:


> Thats what I mean though. That's why I consider him to be a real 'character' not just a figment. .



You could always consider him an accomplice of Tyler's (before he realizes what Tyler is). So in that way he's sharing some of the credit for the things that are going on. He's trying to shrug off the yuppie life by embracing violence and other types of destructive behavior, and he thinks he's setting an example that will help free other men of the same condition he was in at the beginning of the story. In that way he's an anti-hero.


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## Heliotrope (Oct 22, 2015)

Exactly. They both are. Even without Tyler he has some questionable morals (pretending he has cancer so he can get sympathy and emotional support from true victims).


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## spectre (Oct 22, 2015)

The story itself doesn't have a hero I think. The hero is the cop. Norton is completely absent of heroism. He's a trickster.

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## Heliotrope (Oct 22, 2015)

I'm not sure I agree. The narrator is a sort of hero at the end… He tries to stop the bombings and he does destroy Tyler… so in those ways he is the hero. However, I don't see him settling down with Marla in suburbia and turning around into a traditional 'good guy'. I think he will always have an edge to him that relishes anarchy. It this way I think that the character as a whole, both the Tyler side and the Narrator side are anti-heroes.


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## spectre (Oct 22, 2015)

Oh man you're right. It's been quite a stretch since the last time i saw it. I only pictured the explosions at the end. Yeah that's the essence of it.

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