# The Main Character is the Villain?



## Griffin (Jun 30, 2012)

Something I've noticed throughout my written works is that I have a habit of making my MCs the "bad guys." They're not unusually cruel or manipulative. Their general personalities differ, but none of them are saints.

I'll give two examples.

One is a boy who is constantly bullied at school and feels like an outcast in his own home. At a young age, he develops an imaginary friend. This 'friend' exists well into the boy's late teens. Still feeling like a loser, the boy dives into fantasy and develops a hero complex. Towards the end, the boy's mother wishes to send him to psychiatric hospital to help him through his mental problems. Well, as it turns out, the imaginary friend is nothing more but part of the boy's schizophrenic delusion and the friend encourages the boy to "slay the beast" aka his mother. The boy is not evil by any means, but he cannot be considered a hero.

Another is an alternative Cinderella. She knows that a fairy godmother won't save her, so she must take matters into her hands. She first seduces a local merchant in order to acquire nice things, like dresses and jewelry. She eventually flirts and befriends numerous people to get what she wants and climbs her way to the prince while leaving a trail of broken hearts behind.

Sorry for the long nonsense, but my question is: if the MC wasn't really the good guy, would that be a major turnoff? They're not cliched villains who want to destroy the world because they can. I seem to be unable to make my MCs goody two-shoes. They're still human with obvious flaws. I'm just curious if bad guys for MCs is a turnoff or a good thing?


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jun 30, 2012)

Well anything "can" work but you may have a hard time if readers can't identify with your MC.

A good anti-hero may be your best bet. Flawed heroes can be awesome characters & might satisfy the darkness you're looking for in a protagonist.


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## RedMorningSky (Jul 1, 2012)

I think some of the best characters do some questionable things to reach their goals. That's what makes them interesting. If everyone does the right thing all of the time then it is likely that the character will be boring. I agree with T.Allen.Smith that like all things it needs to be done right, but for me it's definitely something I like to see in a main character. The most recent example I have read where the author uses this technique is David Anthony Durham in his Acacia series. Corinn does a ton of evil things like trying to have her sister in law and her child killed to protect her son as heir to the throne, but throughout the book we see how she became this way so as a reader I could identify with the choices she made, even if I didn't agree with them at all.


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## Ghost (Jul 1, 2012)

Griffin said:


> Something I've noticed throughout my written works is that I have a habit of making my MCs the "bad guys." They're not unusually cruel or manipulative. Their general personalities differ, but none of them are saints.
> 
> [...] my question is: if the MC wasn't really the good guy, would that be a major turnoff? They're not cliched villains who want to destroy the world because they can. I seem to be unable to make my MCs goody two-shoes. They're still human with obvious flaws. I'm just curious if bad guys for MCs is a turnoff or a good thing?



I do similar characters who make questionable or harmful choices, so I can relate. It seems easier to do in short fiction without it overwhelming the reader. When it comes to longer work, the MC needs to be intriguing or there should be something to relieve the reader of the weight of the MC's actions.

Your first example reminds me of a story by Patricia Highsmith called "The Terrapin." I don't remember many details, but the young protagonist is angry about something his mother does. Being able to make the reader see why the MC is upset enough to do what he does or why the MC reasoned his course of action was a good one helps.

I'm also considering a fairytale retelling, but mine's Snow White and it's pretty morbid. I think if you can establish what Cinderella hopes to gain, why trading sexual favors fits with her goals, and how she views herself vs. the people she manipulates, it could be engrossing even if she's not admirable. Showing her weaknesses and how she compensates is also good.

I think it's fine to have characters who aren't goody-two-shoes, but there should be something to make the reader turn the page.


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## Lorna (Jul 1, 2012)

'my question is: if the MC wasn't really the good guy, would that be a major turnoff? They're not cliched villains who want to destroy the world because they can. I seem to be unable to make my MCs goody two-shoes. They're still human with obvious flaws. I'm just curious if bad guys for MCs is a turnoff or a good thing?'

Hmm... this has first got me thinking of how many books I have read who have got a 'goody two shoes' MC. Harry Potter perhaps. Gallahad. The only others are subcharacters, like Goldmoon from the Dragonlance books. Even Enid Blyton's heroine in the Famous Five series, George, was a rebel. I guess this is because 'goody two shoes' characters make for a pretty dull read. 

I tend to like reading ambiguous complex characters that make mistakes like Robin Hobb's Fitz, Raistlin from Dragonlance.

The MC in my novel in progress has got the traits of a hero but is forced into the role of a villain. For example in the third chapter of the first book he is driven to burn a town. In the second book he murders somebody, as a sacrifice to the elementals, in return for the power to take down a greater evil. To most humans he's a villain but he's the elementals' champion.

When you ask whether a character is a villain you also need to consider 'from whose standpoint?'


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## The Dark One (Jul 1, 2012)

Read the Flashman series. It's a brilliantly told 1st person narrative in which the MC constantly boasts about his evil - lying, cheating and womanising his way to fame and fortune. Flashman does some unspeakably caddish things but you can't help but love him and even identify with him because he is so intelligent and funny (and delights in pointing out the hypocracies in others).


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## Amanita (Jul 1, 2012)

> I'm just curious if bad guys for MCs is a turnoff or a good thing?


For me, and probably for quite a few others, this depends on the bad things they do and their personal opinion about it.
Your first one hits me the wrong way for various personal reasons but this doesn't mean it has to be that way for others. It also doesn't mean that you couldn't write an engaging story with this premise. Many famous works of literature actually follow people who are anything but morally perfect. 
An important question is if you want to write a story that deal with psychiatric disorders/drug abuse/getting dragged into criminal circles, dangerous religious organisations etc. or one with a "hero" bent on something completely different who just happens to have these issues. In the first case, the story might require such a problematic background, in the second one, it could easily get into the way. 



> I guess this is because 'goody two shoes' characters make for a pretty dull read.


I agree with the assumption that morally perfect characters are boring but this doesn't mean that a character has to torture, rape and murder to be interesting. There are plenty of flaws human beings show when dealing with others which can cause quite a few problems but aren't as unforgivable as those. I generally like "heroic" characters who do have a set of moral principlces they adhere to if possible and don't act against without second though.

I'm not unfamiliar with this problem myself though. In one of my stories, I have a viewpoint character who brings death an destruction over a city full of refugees, spends most of his time working on the most efficient ways of killing people, isn't above beating his own wife and raping a female prisoner of war. In my opinion these actions make sense in context  from his point of view but I'm still not sure if I should keep his parts in the story. There are other narrators including his wife and the prisoner who put things in perspective though which should make it obvious that I do not endorse this kind of behavior. 
In general, their opponents are the "evil" side, but he's sort of a villain on the "good" side. Good and evil don't really apply to this story, but summing up all their actions, the others are worse.


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## Ireth (Jul 1, 2012)

*now has to stop and think about whether any of her protagonists is a goody-two-shoes*

Vincent and Dom are both generally "lawful good", though each of them slips into neutral from time to time. Vincent is perfectly willing to break into a national monument in the dead of night to open a portal to Faerie and save his kidnapped daughter, and Dom comes close to killing a captive Fae in cold blood before she attacks him and forces a change to self-defence. Ariel herself I'm not sure about. Everything she does is in the interest of self-preservation, and until she accidentally maims the bad guy, it really isn't much more serious than having to lie to him about certain things, and breaking out of prison. The maiming itself was an act of self-defence, as he was seriously hurting her.


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## writeshiek33 (Jul 1, 2012)

brent weeks black prism book has role reversal has villian act like hero and hero act like a villian


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## Jabrosky (Jul 2, 2012)

I once attempted a story with a female protagonist whom I intentionally made _extremely_ unsympathetic. I deliberately wanted people to root _against_ her. She had the hots for a certain guy at her college, but he turned out to already have a girlfriend whom the protagonist immediately disliked...to put it very mildly. To give you an idea of how despicable my anti-heroine was supposed to be, the n-word (yes, _that_ n-word) was among the tamer insults she used to address her love interest's girlfriend. Ultimately my problem was that reviewers found her _too _irredeemably revolting.


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## Steerpike (Jul 2, 2012)

I've mentioned before, but try Ian Graham's _Monument_. The MC isn't the villain, per se, but he is thoroughly unsympathetic and has no redeeming qualities. Nevertheless, Graham makes it work.


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## Ireth (Jul 2, 2012)

Not a literature example, but the musical _Sweeney Todd_ has an excellent example of a villain protagonist. He's a serial murderer who endorses cannibalism, and is out for revenge on the man who had him shipped to Australia, raped his wife and kidnapped his daughter (then an infant, now a teenager). And the antagonist, Judge Turpin, is just as bad -- a corrupt judge, rapist, child abductor, and implied* pedophile.

*I say 'implied' because while Turpin has an entire song in the original musical about his overwhelming lust for Sweeney's daughter, at that point she's sixteen and technically too old to qualify Turpin as a pedophile (the correct term for lusting after an adolescent is ephebophilia). Whether or not Turpin lusted after her when she was still a child is left unclear.


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## The Dark One (Jul 2, 2012)

The novel I've just sent (back) to my agent (after some rewrites) involves an (apparently) evil MC. He does lots of bad things, and it's 1st person narrative (blended with 3rd person in the scenes he's not around) so you're in his head most of the time. The reader knows exactly how evil he is and why he does what he does...but he's intelligent, and funny, and all (but one) of my guinea pig readers love him to bits.

Funnily enough, the only one (of about 15) guinea pigs who doesn't like him...finds him quite offensive in fact...is the only one of my closer friends who is also a writer (published in two countries). I've pondered this at length, and did actually slightly moderate the MC's manner in response to my friend's criticism, but he still hates the MC despite the fact that at the end the reader gets to find out why he (tragically) is the way he is, and he cops the worst (and most undeserved) come-uppance in the history of literature. After all that (apparent) evil, the reader (in most cases) comes to sympathise with the MC...which I think is hilarious.

What is literature, after all, but the pressing of readers' buttons.


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## Christopher Wright (Jul 2, 2012)

Well that's the thing. Some readers like it when the writer pushes buttons, others hate it. For my part, the second I think a writer is trying to manipulate me I immediately stop reading. I know others who are fascinated by it and are more likely to KEEP reading for the same reason.

When you portray a villainous main character, there may be a fair amount of button-pressing going on in order to "seduce" the reader over to the character's side. At that point, it becomes a matter of whether the reader is willing to put up with the devices that need to be brought out to win the reader over. I won't, apparently, but plenty will.


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## JCFarnham (Jul 2, 2012)

Christopher Wright said:
			
		

> Well that's the thing. Some readers like it when the writer pushes buttons, others hate it. For my part, the second I think a writer is trying to manipulate me I immediately stop reading. I know others who are fascinated by it and are more likely to KEEP reading for the same reason.



Think I've just found something we aren't on the same page about 

And example of button pushing I love to trot out on occasions like this is the film Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. 

I hate knowing where a plot is going. So I suppose in that sense when I indulge in fiction I'd rather I be manipulated. The film has an unreliable narrator, one who seemingly forgets to tell you things, goes back, insists they're important..may be they are, maybe they aren't.

I didn't know what was coming even as the "whodunit" in the mystery was revealed, and to top it all off the narrator cuts in and taunts me "have you figured it out yet?"

Irritating and infuriating, yes. I can see how people could hate it for the very reasons I love it, which I do.

(its also the only instance where Val Kilmer appears to be able to act, but that's hardly the point haha)

Button-pushing will keep me reading.

Villains as protagonists? Haven't read one I liked... Seems at the moment to be a massive gimmick but I have yet to read a certain famous serial killer series.


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## ElliotWyndwryght (Jul 2, 2012)

No please don't do that! I'm begging you; don't make your 'good guys' bad!! Please!!!!

 I'm joking, but really, that's the thing that gets on my nerves the most when I'm reading.  When the MC isn't someone you admire or want to imitate because they're so revolting you'd wish the author would kill them. When I read your description of Cinderella I thought 'Ug, who'd want to read about such a disgusting person?'. Now if one of Cinderella's step-sisters were in there, as an actually good 'good guy', seeing what she's doing and trying to stop her, that would fascinate me. But if it's just the 'protagonist' acting as a general slut, trampling people as she goes and still getting what she wants in the end? I'd... really not read the book. Just my opinion. 

Isn't the protagonist supposed to be good though? I don't mean perfect, perfect MCs are nauseating (their corniness reaches no limits and their clique is legendary). But to have a MC with no redeeming qualities, who doesn't do the right thing, in fact who is selfish and who is only separated from the villain by a teeny moral tiptoe? Wouldn't that just be a story about two villains fighting with each other? 

There's my ore, just push it off downstream if it's not relevant.


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## Ghost (Jul 2, 2012)

ElliotWyndwryght said:


> No please don't do that! I'm begging you; don't make your 'good guys' bad!! Please!!!!



These characters naturally turn out this way. They weren't good guys Griffin forced to be bad. I bet they fall on the dark end of the spectrum because of Griffin's preferences as a reader.



ElliotWyndwryght said:


> When I read your description of Cinderella I thought 'Ug, who'd want to read about such a disgusting person?'. Now if one of Cinderella's step-sisters were in there, as an actually good 'good guy', seeing what she's doing and trying to stop her, that would fascinate me. But if it's just the 'protagonist' acting as a general slut, trampling people as she goes and still getting what she wants in the end? I'd... really not read the book. Just my opinion.



I didn't see the part in the OP where Cinderella was just acting like a general slut. In the description, she uses her sexuality to move upward in society by seducing one guy and flirting/befriending others. I think it's a great issue to explore because people have done and still use their attractiveness to get ahead. Also, in the original Cinderella, the prince "fell in love" with her because she was beautiful and well-dressed. That's absolutely crappy! This Cinderella's decisions are cunning, and they could very well get her the prize if Griffin's version of prince follows the fairy tale. I like exploring the negative implications in fairy tale scenarios, so I'd read this story.

Most readers probably dislike this sort of thing. Every time you add something specific—like fantasy genre, a protagonist's age or gender, a certain writing style—the audience gets whittled down. A bad guy as the protagonist excludes more of the audience. The dilemma is to go with your instincts, to tone it down, or to force the characters and conflicts to be more palateable to a wider range of readers. I think there's a better chance of drawing people into your stories if you're genuine and passionate than if you cater to expectations, but I'm certainly no expert.

There are quite a few writers on the forum who have jerks as protagonists. I say write what you'd want to read and write it the best you can.


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## The Dark One (Jul 3, 2012)

JCFarnham said:


> I hate knowing where a plot is going. So I suppose in that sense when I indulge in fiction I'd rather I be manipulated. The film has an unreliable narrator, one who seemingly forgets to tell you things, goes back, insists they're important..may be they are, maybe they aren't.
> 
> I didn't know what was coming even as the "whodunit" in the mystery was revealed, and to top it all off the narrator cuts in and taunts me "have you figured it out yet?"
> 
> ...



I feel your pain brother. One of the huge drawbacks of being a writer yourself is that it's almost impossible NOT to know where the plot is going in most cases. In good literature, nothing happens by accident. This means you'll spot a red herring a mile away and/or be constantly turning over plot possibilities in your mind. I love it when a writer can trick me into thinking the plot is going one way and then turn me on my head with the real plot, but it doesn't happen often.

It depends on the type of story as well. Have you seen the film Goal? It was appalling on so many levels (not least the small problem of an illegal immigrant turning out for Newcastle Utd) but it pressed my buttons so well I constantly forgave it and thoroughly enjoyed it. (The sequels, were the most diabolical bollocks in the history of film.)


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## The Dark One (Jul 3, 2012)

By the way, I thought Val Kilmer was excellent in The Doors Movie.


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## JCFarnham (Jul 3, 2012)

The Dark One said:


> By the way, I thought Val Kilmer was excellent in The Doors Movie.



Perhaps he just doesn't have a decent track record.


So in terms of Villains as main characters, you need to make sure (if faced with a reader like me) that they aren't there ONLY as a gimmick. It goes right along with the button pushing thing and subtly.


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## ElliotWyndwryght (Jul 3, 2012)

> I didn't see the part in the OP where Cinderella was just acting like a general slut. In the description, she uses her sexuality to move upward in society by seducing one guy and flirting/befriending others. I think it's a great issue to explore because people have done and still use their attractiveness to get ahead. Also, in the original Cinderella, the prince "fell in love" with her because she was beautiful and well-dressed. That's absolutely crappy! This Cinderella's decisions are cunning, and they could very well get her the prize if Griffin's version of prince follows the fairy tale. I like exploring the negative implications in fairy tale scenarios, so I'd read this story.



Um, using sexuality to move upward in society by seducing people and flirting with the intention of manipulating someone is slutty behavior. Yeah people use this to get ahead but with great cost to the people they walk over. 

Falling in love with someone who's 'beautiful and well-dressed' isn't 'crappy'! You are first attracted to someone because you see something beautiful or attractive in them, and being well-dressed is just taking good care of yourself. Unless the person is dressed intentionally to be sexually alluring in which case you'd be right. 

I enjoy fairy tales where the story is retold with the heroes as villains or visa versa, but if a story is just about some jerk trampling people to get what they want... why would you write or read that? I'm not trying to pick a fight, just sayin'...


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## Ghost (Jul 3, 2012)

I didn't like how easily the word "slut" was thrown out there because she slept with one person and flirted with others. She's manipulative, but I wouldn't use insults about sexual promiscuity without reading the story.

Being attracted to someone's looks and style is fine, but falling in "love" with that person and wanting to marry them? It would be a different story, literally, if the prince wanted to get to know Cinderella. I think in the movie _The Glass Slipper_, he liked her before her transformation, but that's not a common approach.

Fairy tales boil everything down to their simplest components, and I think it's fun for a story to tackle those unrealistic qualities.



ElliotWyndwryght said:


> why would you write or read that? I'm not trying to pick a fight, just sayin'...



I'm not sure if this is a genuine question, but I'll answer. I'd write or read a story like this because I'm drawn to darker stories. Edgar Allan Poe, George RR Martin and Angela Carter are some of authors I like, and they all have a few characters who aren't admirable.

Regarding fairy tales, it's not unusual for a woman's worth to be tied exclusively to her attractiveness. There are fairy tales with intelligent or lucky females, but more frequently the woman should simply look pretty and be the prize. If she's pretty, she's also a good person. The most virtuous woman in a fairy tale is frequently the most attractive.

I don't see anything wrong with showing the ugly side of fairy tales, where there's more to a woman than a pretty face.

I'm not sure what Griffin's goals are, but I'm curious about both stories.


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## The Dark One (Jul 4, 2012)

I guess another corollary of my above post is one of the features (IMHO) of bad literature. As I suggested, in good literature nothing happens by accident. But it does in bad literature. I cannot bear stories where the author and editor (if there is one) are so lazy they leave half written threads unresolved. It drives me mad when (so called) writers leave noise in the narrative.


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## ElliotWyndwryght (Jul 4, 2012)

> I didn't like how easily the word "slut" was thrown out there because she slept with one person and flirted with others. She's manipulative, but I wouldn't use insults about sexual promiscuity without reading the story.



Wouldn't seducing someone to get them to give you something be considered prostitution? Really I thought that was the whole definition, selling your body for material gain and all. So doesn't doing that qualify her as a slut? 

I was genuinely asking earlier I've never enjoyed reading books where you don't respect or admire the MC or anyone else in the book. But I guess it's just a difference of preference. Thanks for answering. 



> If she's pretty, she's also a good person. The most virtuous woman in a fairy tale is frequently the most attractive.



Unless you're the evil queen in Snow White.  I really like the book "Despereaux" where one of the MCs is a lumpy and half-deaf serving maid who was named after her father's prize sow. But anyway, off topic...


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## Griffin (Jul 4, 2012)

First off, I would like to thank everyone for their posts. They were all really helpful and insightful.

Secondly, why the hate on my Cinderella? :tongue: To be fair, I gave a simple overview of her character. There is more complexity than "a slut getting her way." Using her looks and sexual appeal to obtain something is nothing new. For thousands of years, women were based solely on their looks in many cultures. My Cinderella is very intelligent and fairly educated, but who cares? She's pretty. It is a sad way of looking at things, but that kind of prejudice existed long ago and still has existence today. I can still hear some mothers today telling their daughters not to read books because men feel threatened by smart women. Though it doesn't happen often, it is still sad to hear that kind of thing.

In addition, I said that Cinderella got to the prince. I did not say she married him. Despite what she may think, she is still human. She does, in fact, have soft spots for certain characters. One being the younger stepsister. Another being a guard who likes Cinderella for who she is. Even the baddest of villains still have soft spots: just look at Darth Vader. 

To be honest, I would not classify her as slut. But I do not feel offended if she is called that. It is just a matter of opinion and I can respect that.


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## Alora pendrak (Nov 29, 2017)

Actually believe it or not morally grey edgy Cinderella is not a new thing. In older versions of the story Cinderella may of killed her own mother so her dad could get remarried and her stepmother betrayed her. Cinderella herself took revenge on her step family in the Chinease version.  Even the French  version could be interpreted to just have married the prince so she could win the love and approval of her step sisters. Who she seems more obsessed with in this version even  wanting to eat with them over the prince.
However none of the edgy Cinderella's are as popular. Cinderella is a character that seems to attract  a certain type of reader. The kind of reader who's looking for a romantic fantasy and generally like the self insert aspect of the character. This is why the most popular version of Cinderella is a character associated with virtue and enduring her abuse while being kind when its easy to be cruel. So seeing her as more callous then her step sisters is going to bother a lot of people. 
Also  turning an established heroic character into a bad guy is one that has mixed results. I've seen it done well but also horribly. As for the hate on your Cinderella no one likes a user who uses their looks to social climb male or female and many people can relate to being used at least once in their life and therefore tend to hate manipulators, but if she's a bad guy why does this hate bother you? Isn't that the goal?

Also if Cinderella is intelligent why doesn't she have a better plan then putting her fate into the hands of a monarch that didn't work out well for several queens were beheaded/killed?  I just feel like this is not a full proof plan that could backfire horribly and is overall too complicated that her pulling it off successfully without a hitch would be highly annoying. My advice the softer moments should balance out the bad moments and there should be a moment where Cinderella could fail or is in actual danger of being found out. That way you can highlight the risks involved and showcase her intelligence by having her think on her feet. Also maybe give her some kind of charm because a girl seduceing that many guys has to have a bit more then looks. Since there would be a lot of pretty girls they could  get easier, particulary the merchant. Cinderella should offer something more then the garden variety of pretty face.  I've talked to guys and believe it or not looks aren't the only thing that appeals to them humor and kindness also goes along way. Guys are visual but most of them aren't that shallow believe it or not and the ones that are usually have severe self astem issues.    Just some suggestions but I say go for it. There have been successful MC bad guys make them interesting  and people won't care as much their asking to identify with the bad guy some readers even enjoy it. Good Luck!


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## Russ (Nov 29, 2017)

Griffin said:


> Something I've noticed throughout my written works is that I have a habit of making my MCs the "bad guys." They're not unusually cruel or manipulative. Their general personalities differ, but none of them are saints.
> 
> I'll give two examples.
> 
> ...



To a large degree I think the answer depends on where the story ends up and what the purpose of the tale is.

Readers want characters they can identify with, and an ending that satisfies them.   I am pretty sure people could identity with both of these characters and be interested in how things turn out for them.

The pay off is the tricky and important part.  Does C just get her way to the top and live with no comeuppance or realization, redemption change or loss due to her behaviour?  Pretty dull and uninteresting.  But if the prince bails on her for  sexier younger woman at some point?  Then you got some powerful stuff!

How does tit turn out for the young man with e mother issues?  IF he just kills his mom and gets punished, once again, not so interesting.  What is the twist or outcome that makes the story interesting?  Does the boy recover?  Is the boy just the delusion and the real person the friend?  Does his mother change?  Does the boy overcome something?  

Those questions will really determine how viable your "anti-hero" storey ideas are.


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