# Steampunk: Fantasy, Science Fiction or something in between?



## Darkblade (Nov 20, 2012)

Steampunk, a little genre that has had a big resurgence in popularity these last few years. The blending of Victorian Era sensibilities and aesthetics with impossibly advanced technology to make points about the past and the present. 

Does this make for fantasy or science fiction? The way it uses technology to make it's points suggests SF. Whereas the impossible nature of the technology implies a more fantasy nature, especially when combined with the tendency for more recent works in the genre to include folklore of the time. What do you think?


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## Steerpike (Nov 20, 2012)

I'd say it can be either, depending on how rigorous the science is. If the "science" is completely implausible I'd call it Fantasy.


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## Saigonnus (Nov 20, 2012)

I would think it's more science fiction than fantasy, considering it simply adapts a known technology (clockwork, steam power, hydraulics etc.) into something we may have invented in another manifestation. Sure the creations tend to be a bit on the "fantastic" side (like the giant walking spider from the *Wild, Wild West movie* with Will Smith.) But we can make something like that with electronics and hydraulics if we really had the need to do so. I haven't seen much about steampunk really, but I would think it is simply substituting one set of technologies for another in the creation of things we already know.


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## wordwalker (Nov 20, 2012)

Since it's dedicated to looking like tech, I'd call it a different era of Space Opera, aka very-soft-SF.

Not that fitting one label into another really helps understand a genre.


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## ThinkerX (Nov 20, 2012)

I've read a fair bit of steampunk.

To me it looks like 'alternate history science' which had a head on collision with Lovecraft - because a fair bit of the time, there are things which would not be out of place in Lovecraft either behind the tech, or in conflict with it.


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## Devor (Nov 20, 2012)

I don't think it comes down to "realism," exactly, but more towards the tone.  Do they try and explain how the tech works, or do characters just grab their gadgets and push a button?  A lot of science fiction stories have just a few points where the science is finicky, but everything after that follows through on those assumptions.   Assuming that a steam engine will do what it's supposed to, do the pistons line up well enough, or do the gadgets produce effects that are beyond explanation?

When in doubt, it's Sci Fi.  Even Tolkein's work gets placed on Science Fiction shelves nowadays.


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## Feo Takahari (Nov 20, 2012)

My impression was that literally the only difference between steampunk and gaslamp fantasy was that steampunk was science fiction and gaslamp fantasy was fantasy--that is to say, any steampunk-esque work that was fantasy would automatically be gaslamp fantasy.


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## S.T. Ockenner (Feb 17, 2021)

Steerpike said:


> I'd say it can be either, depending on how rigorous the science is. If the "science" is completely implausible I'd call it Fantasy.


No, it would be Soft Sci-Fi, not Fantasy. It is technology, so it's still NOVUM.
 The fact that it is technology and not supernatural makes it firmly grounded in Science Fiction.


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## Steerpike (Feb 17, 2021)

S.T. Ockenner said:


> No, it would be Soft Sci-Fi, not Fantasy. It is technology, so it's still NOVUM.
> The fact that it is technology and not supernatural makes it firmly grounded in Science Fiction.



I don't agree. Or, at least, I'd argue over what constitutes "technology." If the so-called "science" is completely implausible, that's not technology. At that point it becomes supernatural and closer to magic, so I'd call it Fantasy.

Put another way--the words "technology" or "science" have to mean something. If you have paranormal or magic and you just call it "technology," that doesn't make it science fiction, IMO.


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## S.T. Ockenner (Feb 17, 2021)

Steerpike said:


> I don't agree. Or, at least, I'd argue over what constitutes "technology." If the so-called "science" is completely implausible, that's not technology. At that point it becomes supernatural and closer to magic, so I'd call it Fantasy.
> 
> Put another way--the words "technology" or "science" have to mean something. If you have paranormal or magic and you just call it "technology," that doesn't make it science fiction, IMO.


Yes, except they aren't just calling it technology- it is in fact actual machines. If it was magic, then it would be Gaslamp Fantasy. Clockwork robots and steam-powered blimps are absolutely not supernatural in any way.


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## Steerpike (Feb 17, 2021)

S.T. Ockenner said:


> Yes, except they aren't just calling it technology- it is in fact actual machines. If it was magic, then it would be Gaslamp Fantasy. Clockwork robots and steam-powered blimps are absolutely not supernatural in any way.



Could be. Suppose the steam inside the device is generated by a supernatural demon who exhales the steam out of his nostrils. But once the steam is out it functions in the way an ordinary steam engine would. Still science fiction? I'd vote no. Again, all comes down to context and how it's presented in the story. 

If you go back to the coining of the term "Steampunk" by KW Jeter, and then look at the works he applied it to (his work, and works by James Blaylock and Tim Powers, who were all students at Cal State Fullerton together) you'll see that not many of them (if in fact any of them) are science fiction. Take a look, for example, at Infernal Devices (Jeter), Homunculus (Blaylock), or the Anubis Gate (Powers). These are seminal steampunk works and they're all fantasy. I've heard people categorize that Blaylock's Digging Leviathan steampunk novel is science fiction, but that's crazy if you've ever read the book.


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## S.T. Ockenner (Feb 17, 2021)

Steerpike said:


> ould be. Suppose the steam inside the device is generated by a supernatural demon who exhales the steam out of his nostrils. But once the steam is out it functions in the way an ordinary steam engine would. Still science fiction? I'd vote no. Again, all comes down to context and how it's presented in the story.


Well, duh, then it would be magic! It's literally powered by a DEMON. That would be Gaslamp Fantasy style Steampunk, however, not Steampunk Sci-Fi. Normal Steampunk does not have magic and demons. I don't think you understood my point at all. It isn't Fantasy unless it is supernatural, regardless of whatever you seem to think it is.


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## Steerpike (Feb 17, 2021)

S.T. Ockenner said:


> Well, duh, then it would be magic! It's literally powered by a DEMON. That would be Gaslamp Fantasy style Steampunk, however, not Steampunk Sci-Fi. Normal Steampunk does not have magic and demons. I don't think you understood my point at all. It isn't Fantasy unless it is supernatural, regardless of whatever you seem to think it is.



That last sentence is not true either, in my view. However, my point, which you quoted from the second post in the thread, is that whether steampunk is fantasy or science fiction depends entirely on the work itself and how the steampunk elements are employed. You’ve said nothing to convince me otherwise, especially given that the term steampunk was coined to describe fantasy works. You’re free to utilize your own definition of course.


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## S.T. Ockenner (Feb 17, 2021)

Steerpike said:


> That last sentence is not true either, in my view. However, my point, which you quoted from the second post in the thread, is that whether steampunk is fantasy or science fiction depends entirely on the work itself and how the steampunk elements are employed. You’ve said nothing to convince me otherwise, especially given that the term steampunk was coined to describe fantasy works. You’re free to utilize your own definition of course.


Oh, you're completely correct. Steampunk is in fact Fantasy or Sci-Fi on the work itself. That is what I was saying. What I'm saying now, is that you think I'm saying something else. I'm saying that steampunk can be either, depending on the work, but is most often closer to Sci-Fi than Fantasy.


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## Steerpike (Feb 18, 2021)

S.T. Ockenner said:


> Oh, you're completely correct. Steampunk is in fact Fantasy or Sci-Fi on the work itself. That is what I was saying. What I'm saying now, is that you think I'm saying something else. I'm saying that steampunk can be either, depending on the work, but is most often closer to Sci-Fi than Fantasy.



Ah...understood. Yeah, I think we're on the same page. Discussions of genre boundaries are always interesting to me, though I have never found a true consensus on the subject, even among professionals in the field. In the end, if it's a good book I will read it whether it's SF or F (or something else entirely).


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## S.T. Ockenner (Feb 18, 2021)

Steerpike said:


> Ah...understood. Yeah, I think we're on the same page. Discussions of genre boundaries are always interesting to me, though I have never found a true consensus on the subject, even among professionals in the field. In the end, if it's a good book I will read it whether it's SF or F (or something else entirely).


I actually found a video that discovered a common link between Sci-Fi stories, something called NOVUM. It's by Tale Foundry.


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