# Noble Families



## thecoldembrace (Aug 10, 2014)

I have recently come across an issue in my first novel during the editing process. My story centers in the capital city of Ordain. On the surface the city is a gleaming example of bright civilization, enlightenment and grace. Underneath the noble families vie for power (as is usual).

   However, what I realized is that somehow along the line the families became an extension of another book not of my own. I structured the families as Noble Houses, and ranked them according to their perceived political and economic power (The Third House, Fifth House) and so forth.

  As I said, this type of structure along with how the houses fight one another is almost identical to the structure and rabid relationship in another novel series. 

   One thing I want to change is how they are named, to change them from The First House to something else.

    A second thing would be to change how they are ranked, but I fear that might be a bit difficult.

Any suggestions would help.

-Cold


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## ScipioSmith (Aug 10, 2014)

The first question is do they need to be overtly ranked? Could their power not be so that anyone can tell who are the top and who are in the mud? If the scheming is going on covertly than a formal ranking system might be counterproductive.


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## Bortasz (Aug 10, 2014)

Royal and noble ranks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The first and second house for me is Menzoberanzan from feurun. Not very good. Humans use Titles and social status. 

Not all Dukes are equal, some Baronet can have greater influence than Earl.


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## Queshire (Aug 10, 2014)

When you said Houses and too close to another book my first thought were the houses in Game of Thrones. However ranking them by power level does away with that idea. I can't really think what book they're too close to. Really, the only thing they make me of are the Estates of pre-revolutionary France and that's just because they both have First, Second, Third.

Now... It would be interesting to see how some wimpy little Sixth House could compete against the might of the First or Second, however since you're already considering changing up the system I have to agree with Scipio that at a glance ranking them by power level seems counter productive to scheming.

I presume that the reason you divided them up like that is so that they're easy to understand at a glance? Like just saying a guy is from the First House would be enough to make the reader understand that they're some big wig without requiring them to memorize entire lists of geneology or names. Instead of basing them on power levels you could choose some other theme for them. Just about any theme could work from political agenda, "These are the guys that want to do away with the whole nobility thing and set up a democracy," occupation, "These are the banker guys," some sort of thematic animal, "The are the fox guys," or whatever you want.

As another note, in my opinion the influence of Game of Thrones on the minds of modern readers is rather big and the focus that series puts on houses might make it so that readers will automatically compare your story to that. If you make them political factions or certain institutions such as a college instead of a House I think you could avoid that and it would make the differing idealogies less linked to family which would allow for more variety when making up the composition of each group and allow for fun stuff such as having two family members belong to rival factions.


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## thecoldembrace (Aug 10, 2014)

ScipioSmith said:


> The first question is do they need to be overtly ranked? Could their power not be so that anyone can tell who are the top and who are in the mud? If the scheming is going on covertly than a formal ranking system might be counterproductive.



Political machinations are part of the book and take place around the main character. So for readers to be able to understand the power certain "houses" have is important. Also it is important to establish that House three would show deference to House two (on the surface of course).

And it does also help me keep track of who is who in the pecking order.



> When you said Houses and too close to another book my first thought were the houses in Game of Thrones. However ranking them by power level does away with that idea. I can't really think what book they're too close to. Really, the only thing they make me of are the Estates of pre-revolutionary France and that's just because they both have First, Second, Third.
> 
> Now... It would be interesting to see how some wimpy little Sixth House could compete against the might of the First or Second, however since you're already considering changing up the system I have to agree with Scipio that at a glance ranking them by power level seems counter productive to scheming.
> 
> ...



The books that I am referring to are some of the Drizzt books by R.A. Salvatore set in Forgotten Realms. Mainly the city and structure I am thinking it is too much alike is the Drow city of Menzoberranzan. 

Each "House" has different economic goals, like you said, which fund their endeavors. Politically they are always trying to get the upper hand to rise in the pecking order. This conflict can get rather bloody at times, especially at a youth Academy where some of the story is spent. Also the large majority of the noble families hate the Royals so there is that as well.


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## ThinkerX (Aug 10, 2014)

Use tokens of rank...like crowns.  1st house = Gold Crown, 2nd = silver, and so on.


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## WooHooMan (Aug 10, 2014)

You can have "Greater Houses" who operate nation-wide and "Lesser Houses" who are limited to one area or city.  Maybe "Unofficial Houses" who aren't recognize as independent factions and works for/with other houses.


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## IrelandBeaver (Aug 10, 2014)

For how your houses are ranked, perhaps you could have public displays. One way could be seating arrangements with the monarch, or other general meetings. I remember from the Bible, Jesus spoke of how many would seek out the head of the table, closest to the host as a seat of honor, but that you should instead sit at the far end of the table. In this scenario, it would be seen as a great honor for someone from the low end to leapfrog to the best seat, while to could be embarrassing for those who previously had the best seat, to be forced to move down. If there are such gatherings with the monarch, then most powerful house would sit at the right hand of the monarch, followed by the second powerful, then the third and so on.

The same could be done with banners or sigils (if your story has them). Similar to how flags are displayed at the Olympics, where the gold medalist's flag is at the center and highest, the silver medalist's flag is on the right slightly lower, and finally the bronze medalist's is on the left and lower than the silvers. As with the gathering scenario, you could have the monarch's banner, then he banners of the houses ranked in order. I could picture these being displayed publicly, that way everyone could see who is on the top. If there is a change, then this is something that everyone, even those not in a house would see. Imagine the shock someone would feel if their banner was placed in a lower position or if a lesser house surpassed one of the big houses. Not only would this be a shock to the house, but the general public would know about it.

You could even have it where the placement of the banners could influence merchants to do business with a particular house. If a new house emerges as one of the top houses, then perhaps everyone will flock to that house, and if a house falls, the business will shrink as well.


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## thecoldembrace (Aug 11, 2014)

IrelandBeaver said:


> For how your houses are ranked, perhaps you could have public displays. One way could be seating arrangements with the monarch, or other general meetings. I remember from the Bible, Jesus spoke of how many would seek out the head of the table, closest to the host as a seat of honor, but that you should instead sit at the far end of the table. In this scenario, it would be seen as a great honor for someone from the low end to leapfrog to the best seat, while to could be embarrassing for those who previously had the best seat, to be forced to move down. If there are such gatherings with the monarch, then most powerful house would sit at the right hand of the monarch, followed by the second powerful, then the third and so on.
> 
> The same could be done with banners or sigils (if your story has them). Similar to how flags are displayed at the Olympics, where the gold medalist's flag is at the center and highest, the silver medalist's flag is on the right slightly lower, and finally the bronze medalist's is on the left and lower than the silvers. As with the gathering scenario, you could have the monarch's banner, then he banners of the houses ranked in order. I could picture these being displayed publicly, that way everyone could see who is on the top. If there is a change, then this is something that everyone, even those not in a house would see. Imagine the shock someone would feel if their banner was placed in a lower position or if a lesser house surpassed one of the big houses. Not only would this be a shock to the house, but the general public would know about it.
> 
> You could even have it where the placement of the banners could influence merchants to do business with a particular house. If a new house emerges as one of the top houses, then perhaps everyone will flock to that house, and if a house falls, the business will shrink as well.



  That is a really interesting idea IB. That would go right along with their livery so that they are recognizable out on the street.


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## JRBoschen (Aug 14, 2014)

I started reading the Drizzt novels recently, so I can see your frustration!  It's still fresh in my mind as well.  

The suggestions of choosing flags or a symbol that in your world is associated with wealth and power are good ones.  There needs to be a way for readers to recognize the distinctions between and within the Noble houses.  Thankfully, there are more ways than ranking them "First", "Second", and "Third" to accomplish this.

A few general examples:

Is water precious in your world?  Have the most powerful house have fountains and moving water surrounding their estate.  Salvatore does this subtly as well.  Think of how the oldest house of power in Menzoberranzan was huge and sprawling.  You can do this too by descriptive means.   

Is it hard to find a certain trade good, like wine?  Have the most powerful families drink it exclusively.

Between the Noble houses, choose one or a few things that communicate rank.  Most powerful family of the day/week/year?  They are delivered and display that thing from the "Emperor", or whatever rules your world.

I would suggest for inspiration, read the Kingkiller Chronicles series by Patrick Rothfuss.  If you already have, open up the second book in the series again.  It's around chapter 57 I think.  When Kvothe in the second book visits the city of Severen, I remember thinking the ranking system between the nobility was brilliant.  Without spoilers, basically a person had a "calling card" in the form of a metal ring they would deposit or exchange with someone they visited.  Gold, silver, bronze, iron- you get the idea.  It was easy to follow who had the money, power and status using a system like this, so it may be good inspiration for you when trying to think of your own ranking ideas.

Best of luck!


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## robmatheny80 (Aug 21, 2014)

Always good to take a look at how to put a new twist on genre tropes and make them your own.


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## Ermol (Aug 23, 2014)

How many houses are you envisaging?


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## thecoldembrace (Aug 23, 2014)

At least eight majors that play a role in the story. They fight amongst themselves and all generally hate the MC and his family.


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## Ermol (Aug 23, 2014)

Well, the distinction between Menzoberranzan and you may largely depend on the numbers. Now as I recall there the numbers reached 50's or beyond, so a smaller number gives you a very different story.  If there are just 8, then knocking one of the ladder isn't going to replace it with a newcomer to enter the "council" or something but take out a huge part of the ruling hierarchy and makes things different for others. Are all 8 integral to the running of the land? Does number 3 despise 7 but at the same time realise that they really need 7 because they import all the chicken? That kind of thing. All the houses hate each other, but they might need each other for the status quo to go on.


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## thecoldembrace (Aug 23, 2014)

Well there would be more than eight, in the ranges of Menzoberranzan but I didn't want to get into detail with so many. Eight will play a main/visible role in the story


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