# The proper structure of dialogue and paragraphs.



## Xanados (Aug 24, 2011)

Hello, everyone. I have a few questions on my mind...
When I'm reading peoples work in the Showcase section, a lot of the time the writing is completley split up. Why is that? Surely that is not the proper structure? I ask this because when I look at a proper book I see the following: 

*<A few lines of writing that form a paragraph> 
<Intendation> <New paragraph>*

Looking at The Eye of The World...there isn't any usage of new lines. I haven't seen many people write like this. Why?

*<Paragraph above, no new line.>
<Indentation>The man walked in a hurried fashion...*

I'm going to write dialogue for my next practice. I've practiced it before but I would like to do it properly for submission. Is this the following the correct way? It seems to be in writing guides and published books themselves.

Is this the correct, punctually?

*<Paragraph>
<Indentation> "His name," a voice declared from behind, "is Dragon."*

Is there a new indented line for every new speaker?

There seems to be an indentation whenever it introduces a new speaker, even when it doesn't start off with dialogue, for example :

*<Paragraph>
<Indentation> Cenn cleared his throat. "My bones are just too old for this wind."*

Tell me...is this all correct?


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## The Blue Lotus (Aug 24, 2011)

Is there a new indented line for every new speaker?

 I acctualy know that one the answer is yes! maybe not indented but 100% a new line.
 as for the rest I am hopeles with sorry man.

"John are you read for lunch?" Sherry called from her desk.

"In Five, get Meg on the line for me please."


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## Xanados (Aug 24, 2011)

Lotus, you might want to read up on this stuff, as I am doing, if you want to be a proper writer!  What I'm looking at seems to be the proper way to write.


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## The Blue Lotus (Aug 24, 2011)

TheForce.Net's Fan Fiction Archive


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## Xanados (Aug 24, 2011)

From that article I gather that the way I wrote it is correct.

"His name," a voice began from behind, " is Dragon."
Comma after name and after behind.

For a new complete sentence it'd be:

"I already knew it," Beren said. "It's all his fault."

I'd really appreciate any feedback from writers who know the correct syntax, punctuation and grammar of dialogue. I'm trying to write properly and professionally.


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## The Blue Lotus (Aug 24, 2011)

Once again punctuation is so not my thing but I am fairly sure that is correct. Like 98% sure  Which is more sure than I am that I won't get rained on this weekend lol... I'm gonna bounce you an Email read it when you have time K.


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## Map the Dragon (Aug 24, 2011)

To answer any and all concerns...yes and no.

There is NO method of dialogue that is 100% acceptable or proper. I promise. I know this for a fact as both a prolific reader, editor/educator, and published author. 

The MOST acceptable method seems to be what was proposed in the thread--each new speaker is indented and started on a new line. This isn't always best though. Try reading Huxley's Brave New World where he often leaves off speaker attributions and you'll find yourself utterly confused early in the book where he has three staight page of this style dialogue. 

However, not all authors indent paragraphs - not all cultures ident paragraphs (I can only speak to American methodology). According to contemporary style guides, our diaglogue should/could appear as such:

Ident, Diaglogue for new Speaker. Technically within that of course, quotation marks at the beginning and end, capital letter to start dialogue, if attribution or intro before dialogue starts, us a period, colon, or comma in front of the introductory quotation marks. End punctuation appears inside the end quotation marks.

There are many exceptions, thus the "NO 100% Methodology". Read a short novel lilke The Road where the author doesn't even like to use punctuation...almost at all. All conventions have been thrown aside. This is an extreme example.

Also, even in style guides, it is also perfectly acceptable and accurate to include dialogue within larger paragraphs, even multiple speakers within larger paragraphs, all without indenting. This, however, is simply not popular, but still in existence--even with some new authors. Some authors even mix their methodologies within a piece of literature for variety. Often, very short dialogue, even exchanges, can be imbedded without idents inside a paragraph to great effect.

Also Also Also, there are punctuation rules (these typically are pretty standard and solid) if you put dialogue inside of dialogue, or you have one speaker continue dialogue through several paragraphs without stopping. If you need help on any of these, please let me know and I'll post those rules as well.

I hope this wasn't utterly confusing. When in doubt, go standard--new speaker=new indented paragraph properly punctuated for dialogue.


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## The Blue Lotus (Aug 24, 2011)

Acctualy Map, I would love to see a posting with the rules done in a very clear way. Not all confuzzled like.


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## Xanados (Aug 24, 2011)

I'm afraid, for me, that just opens up more questions that may just sound idiotic.

If I'm looking at two well known Author's writing and in every book they seem to indent for a new paragraph...why aren't we writing like that now?  (Oh god, I can hear the laughter. These are questions I've never asked myself.) I'm also very confused that you said not all Authors use indented paragraphs. What do I use for my practices now?

Edit: Oh! "Professionally printed material typically does not indent the first paragraph, but indents those that follow."


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## The Blue Lotus (Aug 24, 2011)

Xanados said:


> I'm afraid, for me, that just opens up more questions that may just sound idiotic.
> 
> If I'm looking at two well known Author's writing and in every book they seem to indent for a new paragraph...why aren't we writing like that now?  (Oh god, I can hear the laughter. These are questions I've never asked myself.) I'm also very confused that you said not all Authors use indented paragraphs. What do I use for my practices now?



LOL and See I am reading a research book on Pagen beliefs and WitchCraft through the ages, and very few maybe 1 -2 paragraphs are indented...


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## Map the Dragon (Aug 24, 2011)

Xanados said:


> I'm afraid, for me, that just opens up more questions that may just sound idiotic.
> 
> If I'm looking at two well known Author's writing and in every book they seem to indent for a new paragraph...why aren't we writing like that now?  (Oh god, I can hear the laughter. These are questions I've never asked myself.) I'm also very confused that you said not all Authors use indented paragraphs. What do I use for my practices now?



*Again, not meaning to confuse anyone, but there just isn't a perfect method that everyone will use. BUT, standard practice (and acceptable especially from an unknown author who isn't allowed to break the rules quite yet) is to ident every paragraph. Then, when writing dialogue, each speaker gets a new paragraph that gets indents. This is grammatically without flaw. You cannot go wrong with this as your style guide*

But, there are books you can pull of the shelves where authors ditch indentations altogether, or the just don't indent the first paragraph of a section or chapter, or some other variance that is probably done as much for aesthetics as for simplicity. 

And your question does not make you sound idiotic, just concerned. We should all be, our methods and style ultimately get us published or not as much as our ideas.


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## Xanados (Aug 24, 2011)

Keep an eye out on those spelling mistakes, Lotus! I'm not saying it to be rude or mean...it just helps as a writer. Remember to spell-check.

I'm really just confused as to how I should be writing for my practices. I don’t know, should I indent my paragraphs and do all the fancy techniques or not?

Edit: Thanks, Map! I wrote this before I F5'd and saw your new post.
Edit: I'm still a tad puzzled that I'm seeing the majority of Showcase writing to be without indentation at all, making it look less professional. Shouldn't we all be writing PROPERLY proper? I don't mean to bash anyone at all, in saying that.


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## The Blue Lotus (Aug 24, 2011)

Well here on the forums the indents don't carry over when you copy and paste. 
So far as I know not many have upgraded to the newer version where it would allow you to keep your formatting.
So that might be something to keep in mind.


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## JCFarnham (Aug 24, 2011)

Also, although the "proper" method works fine in books, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to read stuff of my monitor if it isn't formatted with an entire line-space between paragraphs. 

Like so.

I was always taught in school that traditional media uses the indent and new line rule for each new paragraph [what ever that may be] where as writing on the internet/computer/whatever needs an entire line of space between paragraphs. And I'll be honest, I find it a lot less daunting to read something in showcase if its format with spaces between things... less like a massive block of text that way.

So yeah, maybe we "should" be formatting work placed in Showcase in the traditional way, but I certainly don't find it easier to read it that way. 

Saying that, I like to take my cues from the modernists and post-modernists, so I think there's alot to be said of stylistically breaking the rules. [As long as editors realise thats what you're doing and don't just think that you're a complete and utter idiot.]


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## Shadoe (Aug 24, 2011)

We use indenting in printed material - books and magazines - because it saves space and is correct. Including a simple double space between paragraphs is correct online because it is easier to read on the screen this way.

As far as punctuation is concerned, yes, there are conventions, and no, it is not correct to pick which you will follow and which you will change. Sure, if you're trying to be "different," you can make up your own rules, but you can expect people to be annoyed when they read it - IF they read it - and if you're looking to get published, I would suggest NOT doing so.


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## Angharad (Aug 25, 2011)

What Shadoe said.  It is different whether you are writing for print or online.  The convention for print is to indent each new paragraph, and indent and start a new paragraph for each new speaker.  This is what you will see in printed books. Also, if you are submitting a hard copy manuscript for publication, it must be in this format, as well as double spaced.  

But writing online, it is usually single spaced, no indentations, with a double space before new paragraphs and when a new person speaks.  This is simply because it is easier to read on the screen if the text is broken up with white space, but the same punctuation rules apply regarding quotations marks, commas, etc.  Here is a link with an explanation that might help.

Dialogue Dos and Don’ts

Also, if you scroll down and type your email address in the box, you can download their free ebook on grammar. It is quite helpful.


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## Xanados (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks, everyone. Definitley cleared up that question.

I've started writing my third practice and I'm using indentations, just to see how it looks. 

@Angharad - Thanks for that link. I'll check out the Ebook, too.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Aug 25, 2011)

Just remember that each place you submit a story to can have it's own specifications for how they want it formatted.  I learned to do most of my actual writing using Courier New font 12pt size and double spaced.  But ugly in my opinion, but it has done one thing for me, I don't care what the text looks like anymore, only what it says.


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## Xanados (Aug 25, 2011)

I use Times New Roman in size 12. I think I heard somewhere that it was a pretty standard setup.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Aug 25, 2011)

The thing about the fixed width font is that on a normal page with one inch margins using 12 point courier new double spaced...it's about 250 words on a page.  If you are submitting something in print (no word processor telling you what the word count is) most editors can count the pages and know roughly how many pages in their publication it would be (short stories mainly).

I got used to it a few years ago, saves me time fidgeting with the font and style, or more correctly, wasting time not writing.


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## JCFarnham (Aug 26, 2011)

Shadoe said:


> As far as punctuation is concerned, yes, there are conventions, and no, it is not correct to pick which you will follow and which you will change. Sure, if you're trying to be "different," you can make up your own rules, but you can expect people to be annoyed when they read it - IF they read it - and if you're looking to get published, I would suggest NOT doing so.



So you see absolutely no merit what so ever in experimenting? Ginsberg, Morrison, Kerouac and the like may as well have not existed then and aren't at all legendary, right?  Doing things purely to get published is not the way to write [perfectly punctuated vampire romance may sell, but what good does it do society?]. Following a publishers format guidelines is one thing. Selling out for the sake of profit is another.

Sorry for the soapbox heh.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Aug 26, 2011)

I look at it this way, if you wish to try and cash in on harry potter, or twilight, or whatever is selling like hotcakes tomorrow, go for it.  I'd much rather be the one creating the next best seller than trying to imitate the last one.  

Now that we have deviated way off the original thread....


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## Shadoe (Aug 26, 2011)

JCFarnham said:


> So you see absolutely no merit what so ever in experimenting? Ginsberg, Morrison, Kerouac and the like may as well have not existed then and aren't at all legendary, right?  Doing things purely to get published is not the way to write [perfectly punctuated vampire romance may sell, but what good does it do society?]. Following a publishers format guidelines is one thing. Selling out for the sake of profit is another.


I see no merit in experimenting if you are attempting to tell a story. I've met a lot of people who tried to write using their own rules rather than, you know, English. I've yet to read anything from them that was actually, you know, readable. The bottom line is, if you want to be a "writer," you must first KNOW the rules and how to follow them. Then, if you choose to break them, you must do so for a reason, and understand why and how you're breaking them. Just to be "different," or to avoid "selling out" is not a good reason. In the examples provided, improper placement of commas and quote marks is just improper, not "style."

And that's my soapbox. I've edited fan fiction. A lot of really, really awful fan fiction, so "experimenting" with grammar annoys me.


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## JCFarnham (Aug 26, 2011)

And I'll have to disagree with you their Shadoe. Removing commas can increase pace, add a rather vocal cadence to the writing, immitate the ramblings of the insane, characters who can't form coherent thought for what ever reason and so on and so on. I could go on but there are plently of reasons for experimentation. And while you may think to avoid selling out is a poor reason to experiment in form, art [which creative writing is] is the sole domain of experimentation. With out it, writing would not have been prefixed with creative and we certainly would not have some of frankly fabulous directors and writers we have today who aren't afraid to push boundaries with out early modernist and beat writers and poets. 

Read _Beloved_ by Morrison and tell me, when you get to the three, stand-out, chapter-long monologues from the main characters [specifically Beloved's], that you see no point in it. 

In an attempt steer back to the point of the thread [in a round about way], while pushing the boundaries with regards to form and structure may have publishers up in arms [ie, if you want to SELL stick to _their_ rules], it does not further the art of creative writing. Traditional form is indeed indent, double spacing, 12pt [possibly courier] font, 250 words a page and so on, which is all well and good, but completely dismissing experimentation where possible within the writing structur as detrimental to plot, is short-sighted in my opinion.

I just don't want anyone to be _afraid_ to write however they wish stylistically [this doesn't mean poor use of language, specifically spelling]. Fan fiction is escapist at best, and hardly EVER written to fulfill the purpose of exploring our chosen craft [of course a few do excell where a lot of awful fic writers fail, I'm not knocking the form in the slightest, I write fan fiction too sometimes]. Did Shakespeare care that his high-society academic references went over the heads of the lower classes, and vice versa? It is more than possible to experiment and tell a story, possibly even a ground breaking story at that. [Not that I'm claiming to be wonderful, I'm nothing to write home about and I know it..] Understand what I'm getting at? 

I think I may start a new thread in regards to experimentation in CREATIVE writing so we don't clog up the TS's thread with off topic stuffs. Feel free to join me and continue this discussion ^_^


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## Shadoe (Aug 27, 2011)

JCFarnham said:


> And I'll have to disagree with you their Shadoe. Removing commas can increase pace, add a rather vocal cadence to the writing, immitate the ramblings of the insane, characters who can't form coherent thought for what ever reason and so on and so on. I could go on but there are plently of reasons for experimentation.


I'm not saying you must never, ever, for any reason even consider breaking a grammatical rule. Fiction writers do that all the time. I'm saying anyone who uses words as their tool should thoroughly understand grammatical rules and know how to use them. _Then _they may break them _for a reason_. Just doing something like, for instance, "I'm never going to use commas because that's my _style_," is silly. It's not artistic, it's just "too lazy to learn where the commas go." (And yes, I've seen this sort of thing happen a lot.)



> I just don't want anyone to be _afraid_ to write however they wish stylistically [this doesn't mean poor use of language, specifically spelling].



Spelling - like commas - is grammar. Why not choose your own spelling of things as well as your own grammar? Isn't using proper spelling as much "selling out" as using proper grammar? There are plenty of authors who've become "creative" with their spelling because that was their "style." (Yes, published authors too.)

You are absolutely correct in that writers shouldn't be _afraid_ to experiment with their style. A unique style sometimes does add to the writing, just as breaking grammatical rules does. But first understand the correct grammar, spelling, punctuation - then understand when breaking a rule will be effective, rather than a distraction. For instance, if you're trying to tell a complicated story with lots of emotion and subtle undercurrents, the last thing you want to do is experiment with grammar, because that will distract from the story. You don't want to take the reader out of the story. Of course, sometimes creative grammar will put the reader more fully _into_ the story. But understanding the tool will tell you which is which.


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## JCFarnham (Aug 27, 2011)

With out proper spelling you've taken away the one chance the words had to mean anything, so I think its perfectly legitimate to single out spelling from the rest of the pack in this case. When exploring form, if the words aren't recognisable as english then I think that we can agree at _that_ it becomes completely unreadable.

So I think we're agreed! I've always thought of understanding grammar and so on as the bare minimum for anyone who wants to write, so maybe I'm taking that for granted. I'd never dreaming of telling anyone who didn't have a good grip on English to push boundaries, that's running before you can walk.

Anyhow, I promise to leave this thread alone now, and let it resume its intended course


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