# Help Wanted!



## Daelhar (Dec 27, 2017)

Hello all at Mythic Scribes! I have a very serious delima. I have a wonderful and amazing idea for a fantasy trilogy/saga. However, I have run into a very large problem. I cannot write. I am terrible at writing. My descriptions are horrible, the point does not come across, and the characters, though strong as characters, have weak dialogue. Would anybody be interested or know someone interested in being a co author? The story is very much open ended, and could easily fit anybody's ideas for a fantasy saga.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Dec 27, 2017)

Most fantasy authors or aspiring fantasy authors I know have plenty of ideas of their own, often more than they have time to write. That's part of what makes them want to be writers.

How much effort have you given to learning the craft of writing? It doesn't come easy to everyone. I don't have a creative writing degree, but I've spent decades studying the craft on my own. I'm still learning, and not giving up just because I couldn't do it initially. My advice is to put more effort into it, and don't give up. You'll get there, if you want.


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## noob of the north (Dec 27, 2017)

I echo Michael that you need to put the effort in. Coming up with ideas is often the easiest part; putting them down on paper and make it all come alive, that's the hard work which takes a lot of time and practise. 

It takes time to learn to write, for most of us. I also learned on my own, from craft books and reading, and of course by writing a lot. My descriptions stunk too, but I looked at the awesome descriptions in books that I liked and sussed out what made them so engaging to read. Now, my descriptions are not too bad, but I'm still work constantly on getting better in all areas of writing. Good luck in finding someone to do that hard work, you might succeed, but learning how to write is probably the only way you're gonna do that wonderful idea of yours justice.


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## Malik (Dec 27, 2017)

Nobody is good when they start.

Okay, there's one person on this board who's still in high school whose work makes me want to kill myself, but generally, nobody is good when they start. (I like to imagine that said person is a troll account of a 75-year-old Nebula winner. It makes me feel better.)

I started writing in high school, 30 years ago. I studied English and linguistics in college, wrote nonstop for 15 years trying to get published, worked as a freelance writer, a technical writer, a columnist and editor for a magazine, and I currently write and lecture for a living, and I still write passages that make me cringe.



Daelhar said:


> I cannot write. I am terrible at writing. My descriptions are horrible, the point does not come across, and the characters, though strong as characters, have weak dialogue.



I'm staring at a scene from my sequel on my other screen, and have been since 4 A.M.; I could have posted the exact words you wrote above just now. To put this in perspective, I've been a bestseller in four countries, I just got a killer review in a national literary trade magazine, I had a photo in my inbox this morning of a pair of female readers holding my book and wearing elf ears and very little else, and I have an inquiry into film rights for my series. I speak at college writing classes. But right now, dude, I suck. Right now, I am a terrible writer and my debut's success was a fluke and I am going to let those girls down unless someone waves a magic wand over my manuscript again.

This feeling never goes away.

So, if you want to write, prepare yourself to marinate in this sensation. You will always feel like you suck, and you will literally die not being as good of a writer as you wanted to be. This is what we do.

That said, we all suck at the outset. So take heart. It takes years, and takes most of us decades, to learn how to put words in the right order so that people will want to keep reading them. College helps--though it's not a panacea for poor writing--but is not necessary. Study of the basic rules of English is critical. Reading voraciously is equally critical. Voracious reading coupled with an understanding of the rules of English is where you get your payoff; the only shortcut I know is to grok your literary theory and language fundamentals so hard that you can read something by another author and understand intuitively _why_ it works--so you can tear it down to the frame as you're reading it--and then file it away so that you can reconstruct it years or months later using your own words, because you know exactly how they did it. It took me about a decade of hard study, but it's a huge time-saver, now.

TL;DR: Read it anyway.


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## Russ (Dec 27, 2017)

I have to agree with Malik (despite the chuckles his brag list brings on for me), that most authors worth their salt suffer from significant self doubt about their abilities as writer even after long periods of unbelievable success.

I'll just let the father (grandfather?) of the thriller genre make the point for me:

“Self-doubt is one of my constant emotions. At the start of each writing session, I tell myself that yesterday’s work could have been a whole lot better, and I often rewrite a scene many different ways before I decide that I reached the limit of what I can do with it. Writing brings fulfillment, yes, but mostly it brings frustration." 

That particular author writes into the evening and then goes and re-reads his work in the morning and finds himself filled with total disgust at what he has written the night before.  Every morning when he comes out of his office his wife asks "So how bad was it this morning?"

And that guy has been shaping his genre and selling millions upon millions of books...for decades.

So don't let the doubt stop you writing.  The truth is that unless you have a long term friend you have a passion to write with, or a fist full of cash, co-writing is unlikely to lead you very far.   Ideas are a dime a dozen, dedication and execution are hard to find.


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## Devor (Dec 27, 2017)

Daelhar said:


> I have a wonderful and amazing idea for a fantasy trilogy/saga. .... The story is very much open ended, and could easily fit anybody's ideas for a fantasy saga.



I have an idea that I think is amazing, that I could never do justice for.  I posted it in a Trope Reboot for the Chosen One, and as part of my own guidelines for the Trope Reboots, it is now free to use.  It reads like this:



Spoiler: The Chosen One



Pickled the Picked is now Bálu-Bakô, a black teenager of the Malatanda people, living in the aftermath of a civil war that has left his nation fractured and unstable.  In his routine life he faces peer pressures that are connected to scarred families and the infighting of a people who have yet to heal from the war.

When outside forces threaten to exploit the escalating turmoil of the Malatanda city-states, Bálu-Bakô does his best to break up the petty infighting and speak for the unification of his people.  Seeing how the people respond to him, the king and the council of elders order their priests to conduct a spiritual rite to grant him a bond with the Agbala.  Agbala is the collective spirit of the Malatanda people that connects each individual, both the living and the ancestors. The more that Bálu-Bakô inspires the faith of his fractured people and their ancestors, the greater his access to the power of Agbala becomes.

As the Chosen One of the Malatanda people, Bálu-Bakô possesses heightened physical abilities and access to the knowledge of his people, including their magic.  But the greatest power that comes from his bond with Agbala is the ability to draw out and confront the spirits who have given up on the Malatanda people.  He has the power to hold each of them accountable for allowing the people to descend into civil war and to rally them to the defense of their nation.



However, I left something out of the trope reboot.  The natural flow of the idea leads straight into a clear concept for the villain's motives. If the magic of Agbala links this group of people, then perhaps the people could be spread across a nation and the magic connecting them used to fuel some kind of a spell on that nation.

^ A great idea is not something that's open-ended. It is not generic enough to fit into any story. A great idea prompts layers upon layers of ideas until it consumes the story. Creativity is not an open phase, one idea and you're done. It's a skill that you employ page after page throughout the story.

And it's a skill that you can learn and develop like any other. But you have to be realistic about where you are with it.


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## Gurkhal (Dec 27, 2017)

What I would advice to to simply start writing. Write small stories about a A4 long and keep writing. Then write some longer stories and keep struggling forever onwards! You can write characterization to develop your characters' voices for the Big Idea you have, you can write background pieces, develop parts of the setting and supporting cast and so on with these smaller stories.

But start writing!


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## Daelhar (Dec 27, 2017)

The problem for me, is that I have devoted a lot of time to it. My progress however seems to be like a graph of a logarithmic function. I'm always improving, but I'll never make it past that horizontal asymptote. I've been writing for more than ten years. Due to a different career path, I have not been able to study the English language or been able to take it apart. My writing really is never good. More than one person has attested to that fact.


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## Daelhar (Dec 27, 2017)

Devor said:


> I have an idea that I think is amazing, that I could never do justice for.  I posted it in a Trope Reboot for the Chosen One, and as part of my own guidelines for the Trope Reboots, it is now free to use.
> ^ A great idea is not something that's open-ended. It is not generic enough to fit into any story. A great idea prompts layers upon layers of ideas until it consumes the story. Creativity is not an open phase, one idea and you're done. It's a skill that you employ page after page throughout the story.
> 
> And it's a skill that you can learn and develop like any other. But you have to be realistic about where you are with it.


The idea itself is not open ended. The story however includes about 12 different kingdoms each with their own culture and politics. By saying it has room for another persons ideas, I mean to say that the kingdoms are a breeding ground for plot. The second part would be about spirits and magicians taking down Ashanar the Thanatos Emporer who threatens the lives of everyone on Writ, but what about the conflicts alongside this? During this time, everything is not peaceful and happy. Peoples lives are still going on, and most people's lives aren't affected by the "villain" of the story. After or before the story, there is history and conflicts that have yet to take place.


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## Chessie2 (Dec 27, 2017)

You're always going to suck in someone else's eyes or be good. Not every reader can be pleased. Write, write, write, write, write. You'd practice at anything else you want to get good at...right? Do the same with writing.

As others here have said, the feeling of suckiness never goes away. I know this is going to sound really weird...but when I have my strongest moments of self-doubt and want to cry over how my writing career will never go anywhere because my writing is terrible and my books are stupid, I re-read the lovely comments readers have made about my work. I have a few saved so I can remember that not everyone thinks I suck.

Dude, being a writer is so hard and people respect you very little unless you're a best seller. I even had my father comment about how I'm making pennies on my work and it made me sad. He's right. But I'm realistic enough to understand that my books are niche and I will never be rich or on lists. I do, however, love to write so much. I've been doing it all my life and felt like I suck all my life, too.

Just keep at it. Let me tell you something, when you start to read passages that flow (your writing) and characters that are real and twists that would keep a bread sack closed you'll see the hard work is worth it. When readers are touched by your work you'll be even more encouraged. If you want to write, write. We all suck at some point and suckiness is subjective anyway.

Edit: phone typos.


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## noob of the north (Dec 27, 2017)

Daelhar said:


> The problem for me, is that I have devoted a lot of time to it. My progress however seems to be like a graph of a logarithmic function. I'm always improving, but I'll never make it past that horizontal asymptote. I've been writing for more than ten years. Due to a different career path, I have not been able to study the English language or been able to take it apart. My writing really is never good. More than one person has attested to that fact.


If writing your idea in prose isn't working for you, maybe another form would be better. I don't know much about RPGs and games, but perhaps you'll find people to collaborate with in other media.


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## goldhawk (Dec 27, 2017)

Ira Glass on beginners:

"Nobody tells this to people who are beginners.  I wish someone has told me.  All of us who are in creative work, we get into it because we have good taste.  But there is a gap.  For the first couple of years you make stuff, it's just not that good.  It's trying to be good, it has potential, but it's not.  But your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer.

"And your taste is why your work disappoints you.  A lot of people never get past this phase; they quit.  Most people I know who do something interesting, creative work went through years of this.  We know our work doesn't have this special thing that we want it to have.  We all got through this.

"And if you are just starting out or you are still in this phase, you gotta know that it's normal and the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work.  Put yourself on a deadline so that every week you finish one piece.

"It's only by going through a volume of work that you will close that gap, and your work will be as good as your ambitions.  And I took longer to figure out how to do this than anyone I've ever met.  It's gonna take a while.  It's normal to take a while.  You just gotta fight your way through."


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## Steerpike (Dec 27, 2017)

I agree with respect to continuing to work on the craft--if you have a passion for it. If not and you just want an income, almost any other option is going to be more effective than writing fiction. You've got to love doing this.

As for co-authors, I don't think anyone is going to go for that if you're just contributing ideas. The truth is, ideas are the easy part. Most writers have many more ideas than they have time to do something with. Co-"authors" are just that--two or more people who are doing the actual writing.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Dec 27, 2017)

Daelhar said:


> The problem for me, is that I have devoted a lot of time to it. My progress however seems to be like a graph of a logarithmic function. I'm always improving, but I'll never make it past that horizontal asymptote. I've been writing for more than ten years. Due to a different career path, I have not been able to study the English language or been able to take it apart. My writing really is never good. More than one person has attested to that fact.



If you want something bad enough, you'll find a way to make it happen, or die trying.

When people tell you your writing isn't good, do they tell you why they think that? It's important to learn what doesn't work for them, so you can assess whether it's something to worry about, and do something about it if it is. Don't be afraid to submit some of your writing for other writers to critique. Enter challenges on this site, where you will get free critiques by knowledgeable writers. Try not to take any critique too personally; analyze it for what the underlying issue is, and see if there's something you can do to correct the issue. I entered a challenge on this site and was told something I thought was unfair, but when I analyzed what was really being said, I realized why it was said, and am in the process of applying it to my WIP.

If it might take you decades to get to where you want to be as a writer, because you (like me) chose a different career path and don't have as much time to give to writing as you'd like, then decide now if that's something you're willing to do. If it's not, then why bother with writing at all? Just be content to be a reader. Lots of people are not writers. If you truly want to be a writer, then realize you're basically going to be working two jobs, and get to work.


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## Chessie2 (Dec 27, 2017)

Perhaps A.E Lowan can chime in here on what it's like writing with co-authors and how she found them?


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## Devor (Dec 27, 2017)

goldhawk said:


> Ira Glass on beginners:
> 
> "Nobody tells this to people who are beginners.  I wish someone has told me.  All of us who are in creative work, we get into it because we have good taste.  But there is a gap.  For the first couple of years you make stuff, it's just not that good.  It's trying to be good, it has potential, but it's not.  But your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer.
> 
> ...



I can't tell you how many times I've tried to look up this quote. I totally agree - this notion of having "good taste" - this is exactly how I feel about the subject.


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## Annoyingkid (Dec 27, 2017)

Don't think of co-authorship as a soft option, or a means for someone else to fill in your weaknesses  straight up get that out your head, because a co-writer isn't a teacher, and contrary to popular belief, it's actually more difficult than writing solo.

Having to divide responsibilities, agree on a common vision  and artistic direction, compromise and mediation to all aspects of the story, having to answer to someone and justify your creative choices every step of the way..

Do you really want that? With someone you've never met irl, no less?  If you can't write well with full creative freedom, you can't expect to be able to write better with less. 

Writing well is very difficult and  very time consuming. That's just the nature of the beast,


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## skip.knox (Dec 27, 2017)

There's no such thing as a wonderful idea. Or, if you prefer, *all* ideas are wonderful and amazing, and they don't matter in the least, and anyway no ideas are original. Whatever you think, it's done been thunk.

Stories matter. Writers are people who turn ideas into stories. As others here have already observed, it's highly unlikely a person is going to be able to pitch ideas--or even a bunch of worldbuilding notes--and have someone else write them ... and then share the profits. That's a bit like me having an idea for a great-looking yard, then asking who would be willing to plant and tend the garden.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 27, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> There's no such thing as a wonderful idea.


There are ideas that give our minds great pleasure and excitement though, but they're generally different from person to person.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 27, 2017)

Your story has been planted in your heart. It came to YOU. Don't doubt yourself and feel like you must delegate the work of writing to another person, even partially.

Co-authoring is a viable option for some, i suppose, but feeling inadequate is not a good reason to do it imo. 

The truth of it is that almost all writing is garbage before it's dissected, revised, and polished. The dialogue is weak. The point doesn't get across. Then you come back to it with more perspective and improve it. Also, it takes a long time to have any idea what you're doing with writing. Hundreds of thousands or millions of words. You might have to write nine different books before you've got the hang of it...or the same book nine times, lol. Not to mention that all writers think they suck. Even your favorite author. Even the greatest authors. A profound, seething hatred of ones own work seems to be very normal and commonplace among writers. 

Don't think you can write? Welcome to the club! None of us think we can write. Maybe we can't. Only one way to find out...


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## Chessie2 (Dec 27, 2017)

Also, writing books is about telling stories not having perfect prose. Readers buy books for the material/experience. While writing good prose is a boon, it's not the be all end all. What really counts is whether you're able to weave a good story. Make learning story a primary focus.


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## WooHooMan (Dec 27, 2017)

I might be willing to co-author with this.  Send me a pm and we'll brainstorm.

I mean, it's not that I don't have my own projects.  It's just that I like working with others and writing can be a lonely hobby.



Chessie2 said:


> Also, writing books is about telling stories not having perfect prose. Readers buy books for the material/experience.



Speak for yourself.  I almost only read for the prose.


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## skip.knox (Dec 27, 2017)

It's harsh, but I believe wholeheartedly it is true.
https://dianedrake.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Hemingway-Monologue-to-the-Maestro1.pdf


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## Chessie2 (Dec 27, 2017)

WooHooMan said:


> Speak for yourself.  I almost only read for the prose.


That's too bad. I was under the impression most readers read for enjoyment.


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## skip.knox (Dec 27, 2017)

I read for the same reason I write: because I can't help it.


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## Chessie2 (Dec 27, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> I read for the same reason I write: because I can't help it.


Isn't that called enjoyment? Oh, bother. There's no point in splitting hairs. I only wanted to say that the article you posted was quite enjoyable.


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## WooHooMan (Dec 28, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> That's too bad. I was under the impression most readers read for enjoyment.



I do.  I enjoy good prose.  Reading good prose is like listening to good music: you enjoy every second of it.


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## Daelhar (Dec 28, 2017)

I apologize to people who might become offended, but most people who have replied to this have a fundamental misunderstanding about me and what I'm asking. I DO NOT want someone to take my ideas and write it for me. A co author would be just that, a CO author, a person contributing to the project not doing all of the actual work. Writing a book is a daunting task, and something I would not like to do alone for reasons I have stated. I am willing to put in as much and more effort into the actual writing than a coauthor. To the people encouraging me and offering moral support for my writing, thank you!


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## Annoyingkid (Dec 28, 2017)

I don't think I misunderstood. You have a bunch of storytelling weaknesses by your own admission, that you are hoping co authorship will overcome. You are hoping someone will integrate their ideas with yours, that you'll have a complementary artistic vision and thus can divide the work of a very long project and both share the rights and any profits, 50/50. You intend to divide the work equally, and seamlessly integrate the two halves through intensive discussion using instant message or email communication with somebody you met online on a writing forum. Does that accurately cover it?


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## Steerpike (Dec 28, 2017)

WooHooMan said:


> I do.  I enjoy good prose.  Reading good prose is like listening to good music: you enjoy every second of it.



For me, it depends on why I’m reading. Most genre stuff is for sheer entertainment only (though not all of it). Other works I read equally for the quality of prose, and in fact the works wouldn’t be what they are without the brilliant prose itself.  I know a lot of readers who read for the quality and character of the writing itself, including one of the secretaries who sits outside of my office. We talk about books a lot and it is always about the writing itself as much as anything. Of course, there are fewer authors one can discuss when that is the focus.


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## Malik (Dec 28, 2017)

Mark me down for prose, too. I'm all about the turn of phrase. Heck, I'll stick with a story that's not really grabbing me if the writer is making music with words. I read a lot of lit-fic for that reason; I find myself buried in books about characters that I don't give a crap about, but telling the author, "Man, talk to me. Make music. More." Flat prose--not taut prose, but unengaging writing--will lose me pretty quick.

As for pacing, structure, thematic lapses, voice glitches, plot holes . . . okay. I'll keep going if the story is good and the writing is strong, and if none of these things are so egregious that they throw me out of the book completely. I should probably be a developmental editor; I am like a mongoose when it comes to catching this stuff in someone else's work. I can't see it in my own, though, which is why editors exist.

However, when I stumble onto poor writing mechanics--I'm not talking about pedestrian writing, or Palahniuk/Pynchon-esque deviant stylism; I'm talking "there cat sat over their," "could of," and even things like dangling modifiers or murky pronoun reference when it happens so often that the author clearly can't be trusted--we're done. I just quit at that point.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 28, 2017)

I probably read mainly for enjoyment of the story, but good writing will captivate me. I find that the "Ooo. Prettyyyyyyy!" isn't enough to keep me invested in the story if i don't care about the characters. Then again, I sometimes feel i read books with characters I don't care for just because I enjoy visiting the world.

But scratch that--I read for the same reason I breathe: There's not much of an option not to.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 28, 2017)

Trying to integrate the writing of two people won't solve your weaknesses in writing. It also is going to be very very hard and frustrating. 

I've tried to co-author fanfic before. I almost feel true co-authorship can't be done.


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## Devor (Dec 28, 2017)

I want to take a step back for a moment, rather than talk about whether or not a co-project works.

If I were to think about a co-authorship, for myself, I would want to see and provide evidence of the following:

1 - What each person brings to the project; writing strengths and weaknesses of each partner, including experience working on collaborations before.

2 - Amount of time (say, hours per week) each partner is willing to commit to working on the project. A novel, especially, requires a ton of time.

3 - A project concept that's worth investing all the effort in.

4 - A reason that the project warrants the partnership.

I would also be looking for red flags, including some of the following:

A - Inflexibility, unwillingness to change or bend when good ideas come up.

B - Ambivalence or wishy-washiness about the project, including the concept, the work, and so on.

C - Low standards for the idea, for the prose and structure, or for the contributions of others involved.


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## Steerpike (Dec 28, 2017)

Malik said:


> Mark me down for prose, too. I'm all about the turn of phrase. Heck, I'll stick with a story that's not really grabbing me if the writer is making music with words. I read a lot of lit-fic for that reason; I find myself buried in books about characters that I don't give a crap about, but telling the author, "Man, talk to me. Make music. More." Flat prose--not taut prose, but unengaging writing--will lose me pretty quick.
> 
> .



Absolutely. One thing I don’t like about a lot of writing advice/critiques is that it tends to push new writers toward generic prose.


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## A. E. Lowan (Dec 28, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> Perhaps A.E Lowan can chime in here on what it's like writing with co-authors and how she found them?


Well, the first one I married out of high school, much to my excellent fortune. The second one I met here on Scribes, again to my excellent fortune. Working with co-authors is always a high-wire act, and I found it best to know each other well before getting started on collaborative works. You want to know each other's strengths and weaknesses, what each other most enjoys about the writing process and what each other enjoys the least.

The way we have things divided up, our responsibilities look like a card trick quilt, with aspects overlapping at the edges. I am the drafter, so that we maintain one cohesive voice. My wife is our plotting mastermind. And our third partner is a character generating machine and development powerhouse.

So, going into a potential partnership, Daelhar, think about your strengths, not just your weaknesses. It may also serve to help you build a little confidence in your own writing.

Remember, if this was easy, everyone would do it, and chicks dig scars.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 28, 2017)

Steerpike said:


> Absolutely. One thing I don’t like about a lot of writing advice/critiques is that it tends to push new writers toward generic prose.



Some writing advice makes new writers so afraid of writing "purple prose" that they are too afraid to explore their own voice or do anything the least bit unconventional. It's sad.


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## Russ (Dec 28, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Some writing advice makes new writers so afraid of writing "purple prose" that they are too afraid to explore their own voice or do anything the least bit unconventional. It's sad.



While I empathize with your and Steerpike's opinion on this, there is a reason behind that advice.   The belief is that it is unwise for the novice to attempt advanced or experimental techniques until they have a sound mastery of the fundamentals or basics.  I think this idea is pretty universal in the coaching/teaching world, including music, sports, science etc.

It may not be particularly applicable for the enthusiastic hobbyist, but I think that is the rationale behind it.


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## A. E. Lowan (Dec 28, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Some writing advice makes new writers so afraid of writing "purple prose" that they are too afraid to explore their own voice or do anything the least bit unconventional. It's sad.


Agreed. I'm here for the literary gymnastics, personally. I'm here for the lines that drop the mic, that gut the reader, that evoke emotion. I'm here for the love of the written word. But, as Russ points out, I'm also not a novice and (hopefully) mastered the fundamentals a long time ago.


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## Devor (Dec 28, 2017)

Russ said:


> While I empathize with your and Steerpike's opinion on this, there is a reason behind that advice.   The belief is that it is unwise for the novice to attempt advanced or experimental techniques until they have a sound mastery of the fundamentals or basics.  I think this idea is pretty universal in the coaching/teaching world, including music, sports, science etc.
> 
> It may not be particularly applicable for the enthusiastic hobbyist, but I think that is the rationale behind it.



I think there's also a counter-point to that argument, however.  It's easier to pull back on creative endeavors than it is to push forward. If your prose is a heavy on the purple, you and your editor can pull it back.  But if your prose is stale, and it doesn't deliver when it needs to, it's much harder to push and draw out something that isn't yet there.


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## Russ (Dec 28, 2017)

Devor said:


> I think there's also a counter-point to that argument, however.  It's easier to pull back on creative endeavors than it is to push forward. If your prose is a heavy on the purple, you and your editor can pull it back.  But if your prose is stale, and it doesn't deliver when it needs to, it's much harder to push and draw out something that isn't yet there.



I think there are pros and cons to both approaches, it depends on the writer.  However I don't recall any of the editors that I talk to complaining about running into a lot of dull, lifeless, prose but they sure do complain a great deal about over the top and cliche ridden material!


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## Devor (Dec 28, 2017)

Russ said:


> I think there are pros and cons to both approaches, it depends on the writer.  However I don't recall any of the editors that I talk to complaining about running into a lot of dull, lifeless, prose but they sure do complain a great deal about over the top and cliche ridden material!



Well, I mean, you can't judge a craft by the slush pile.  Ask them about the authors they work with and areas of the prose that are a little too "try hard" versus those that are "glossed over."


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## Russ (Dec 28, 2017)

Devor said:


> Well, I mean, you can't judge a craft by the slush pile.  Ask them about the authors they work with and areas of the prose that are a little too "try hard" versus those that are "glossed over."



I talk with them about their authors all the time, and what specifically they do for each author.  It is fascinating stuff.  I think a book about author editor relationships would be well worth buying.  There are boatloads of amazing stories about those relationships just waiting to be told.

But what I think DOA and SP were talking about was writing advice on the web and in books, not advice that had been specifically targeted to them based on their work.

So when an editor or writer is going to offer generic writing advice, in the book or the web they actually do have to base that advice on what trends they are observing overall in the unpublished manuscripts they are seeing, because that is the bulk of who their audience is.   So they do have to draw conclusions from the slush pile if they are to target any advice at all.  The sense of it I have, is that they see a lot more purple prose than the opposite and thus they give general advice that way.

I would expect their specific advice to authors might be very different, but I don't think that was what DOA or SP were referring to.


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## Steerpike (Dec 28, 2017)

Russ said:


> While I empathize with your and Steerpike's opinion on this, there is a reason behind that advice.   The belief is that it is unwise for the novice to attempt advanced or experimental techniques until they have a sound mastery of the fundamentals or basics.  I think this idea is pretty universal in the coaching/teaching world, including music, sports, science etc.
> 
> It may not be particularly applicable for the enthusiastic hobbyist, but I think that is the rationale behind it.



I don't think a writers voice or style is necessarily an experimental or advanced technique. It is something that can be nurtured from the start while still imparting the fundamentals.


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## Russ (Dec 28, 2017)

Steerpike said:


> I don't think a writers voice or style is necessarily an experimental or advanced technique. It is something that can be nurtured from the start while still imparting the fundamentals.



That can be achieved in a one or one editing or coaching context for sure.

But when it comes to generic advice it is very different.  And to be fair, I have read hundreds of books and articles containing writing advice, and I can't recall any that directly discouraged people from developing their own voice or style.  I  have read a lot of advice about how to avoid purple pose, the power of understatement or subtext, and the importance of having accessible vocabulary and sentence structure to make sure your reader is not separated from the story due to attempted literary flourishes, but really cannot recall any that discourage developing  your own voice. 

If your concern is that there is a trend in genre and commercial fiction away from fancy prose styles, I would totally agree.  Whether that is good or bad is a different question.    But that does not stop editors from desiring or seeking out strong voices.  An understated or lean voice or style is just as much a style as the opposite approach.   I would think that one is much easier for the beginner to execute effectively.  And I remain pretty sure that editors encounter a lot more over the top prose than lifeless prose.  As one highly sought after writing teacher (and successful author) likes to tell his students if they want to sell, they need to "write tight."   (to get the full impact you need to say those two words slowly and with the most charming Georgia accent).


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## Steerpike (Dec 28, 2017)

Depending on what you mean by "write right," I may or may not agree. If it means you can't sell dense, descriptive prose, that's empirically false.

Part of the problem with characterizing something as "purple prose" is that it is highly subjective. I also think it is much harder to critique, and very easy to call anything purple if it isn't lean and spare. Many critiquers I come across would have nothing but criticism for the style of Peake or Nabokov or Shirley Jackson or Angela Carter, which tells me they lack the skill to distinguish between purple prose and effective dense or descriptive prose. People who can't make that distinction are not people you want telling new writers with more flowery styles whether what they're doing is good or bad. When you come across a new writer who writes like Dickens, you don't try to turn them into Lee Child (whom I love), you try to help them become effective at telling stories in their chosen style (assuming they've chosen it and aren't just flailing blindly).


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## Chessie2 (Dec 28, 2017)

Steerpike said:


> Absolutely. One thing I don’t like about a lot of writing advice/critiques is that it tends to push new writers toward generic prose.


Ok...but I can think of a few best sellers in recent times with generic prose. All I'm saying is that story matters more than prose because it's ultimately the story we're trying to sell to readers. But not everyone agrees with this concept and I'm cool with that. 

As an aside, I've read a lot of boring books lately with polished prose. Beautiful prose without a story just won't do it for me.

OP: If you feel that sharing responsibilities with another writer will help strengthen your craft then it's all good. Do that. I wish you well in finding a reasonable arrangement.


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## Steerpike (Dec 28, 2017)

Lest someone point out those are older works, look (for just one example) at Brian Catling's 2015 fantasy novel The Vorrh, which was quite good and one of the few fantasy works I've seen well-received in more of the literary community. As one reviewer (who liked the novel) put it:

"Catling is as close to a Renaissance Man as we get these days, and the novel reads like a painting, filled with intense imagery, complex constructions, and unusual metaphors....The language is rich and even overwhelming, often teetering on the edge of bombast without ever quite going over. You can get lost in its passages; Catling has an eerie ability to bring all of your senses to bear."

When I read works like that, I sometimes imagine what the reaction would have been had the writer, while writing, posted excerpts for critique on writing forums. The commentary would be vastly negative and critical on most of them, I suspect. Mythic Scribes seems to me to have a pretty good base of writers when it comes to critique, but not all writing forums do.


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## Russ (Dec 28, 2017)

Steerpike said:


> Depending on what you mean by "write right," I may or may not agree. If it means you can't sell dense, descriptive prose, that's empirically false.
> 
> Part of the problem with characterizing something as "purple prose" is that it is highly subjective. I also think it is much harder to critique, and very easy to call anything purple if it isn't lean and spare. Many critiquers I come across would have nothing but criticism for the style of Peake or Nabokov or Shirley Jackson or Angela Carter, which tells me they lack the skill to distinguish between purple prose and effective dense or descriptive prose. People who can't make that distinction are not people you want telling new writers with more flowery styles whether what they're doing is good or bad. When you come across a new writer who writes like Dickens, you don't try to turn them into Lee Child (whom I love), you try to help them become effective at telling stories in their chosen style (assuming they've chosen it and aren't just flailing blindly).



It was "write *t*ight" not "write *r*ight."

Your argument is slipping down the trail of absolutes and is building a bit of its own straw man.  No one has said that it you "can't" sell dense, descriptive prose.  I would however say that it is harder to both sell and master, dense, descriptive prose than leaner styles.

If your point is "one needs good critique partners", I agree.   But I don't know who the critiquers are you are talking about.  They may well indeed suck.  There are plenty of people who are piss poor critiquers and have no business trying to help shape the career of young writers.  Some of them are too judgmental, some are too biased, and some are completely out of touch with the realities of selling books these days.  

But if you are writing a book or a blog with generic writing advice, not an individual development plan or critique, I still believe that more new writers are guilty of over the top writing than the reverse.  And I also believe that many new writers don't take the time to master the fundamentals as thoroughly as they should.


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## Steerpike (Dec 28, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> Ok...but I can think of a few best sellers in recent times with generic prose.



Not everyone wants to write a bestseller, nor should they. I think story and prose are both important. One can make up for a lack in the other, at least to some extent. Ideally, I'd like a good combination of both (and the good prose can be lean and mean or it can be lush and descriptive; I like both).


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## Steerpike (Dec 28, 2017)

Russ said:


> But if you are writing a book or a blog with generic writing advice, not an individual development plan or critique, I still believe that more new writers are guilty of over the top writing than the reverse.  And I also believe that many new writers don't take the time to master the fundamentals as thoroughly as they should.



You can master fundamentals with lean or lush prose. Either approach can work. New writers who are writing over the top purple prose aren't screwing up because they are writing dense prose, they're screwing up because they aren't doing it _well._


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## Russ (Dec 28, 2017)

Steerpike said:


> Lest someone point out those are older works, look (for just one example) at Brian Catling's 2015 fantasy novel The Vorrh, which was quite good and one of the few fantasy works I've seen well-received in more of the literary community. As one reviewer (who liked the novel) put it:
> 
> "Catling is as close to a Renaissance Man as we get these days, and the novel reads like a painting, filled with intense imagery, complex constructions, and unusual metaphors....The language is rich and even overwhelming, often teetering on the edge of bombast without ever quite going over. You can get lost in its passages; Catling has an eerie ability to bring all of your senses to bear."
> 
> When I read works like that, I sometimes imagine what the reaction would have been had the writer, while writing, posted excerpts for critique on writing forums. The commentary would be vastly negative and critical on most of them, I suspect. Mythic Scribes seems to me to have a pretty good base of writers when it comes to critique, but not all writing forums do.



Catling, who I understand was born in 1948, and has a long body of academic and artistic work, is hardly what I call a new writer, and I suspect he was not chasing too many internet critiques.  

I would still contend that writing accessible dense or lush prose is a more advanced technique than lean or simple prose.


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## Steerpike (Dec 28, 2017)

Russ said:


> Catling, who I understand was born in 1948, and has a long body of academic and artistic work, is hardly what I call a new writer, and I suspect he was not chasing too many internet critiques.
> 
> I would still contend that writing accessible dense or lush prose is a more advanced technique than lean or simple prose.



He was pretty new at prose fiction. Lots of poetry. One obscure novel before The Vorrh I believe. In any event, whether it is harder to do well or not there's no reason to beat it out of new writers. If that's the style they've chosen, they should be helped to develop it, in my view. However, that places a greater burden on the critiquer.


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## skip.knox (Dec 28, 2017)

Just a word on co-authoring. I would put ghost writing as a sub-type of co-authoring. Often in that relationship, the instigator has ideas (e.g., her life story, anecdotes) but either cannot write well enough to sell, or lacks the confidence (or time) to try. I would not be surprised to find that in some cases, the instigator (is there a word for this?) might even have written a draft themselves, and so claim a co-author standing. I suspect ghost writing is a complex relationship.

In any case, ghost-written books clearly can succeed, so a request for co-authors is not a foolish request. I will point out, rather unnecessarily, that ghost writers get paid. But amateurs abound in every endeavor. The one question I'd ask of the OP is this: if your own writing is so poor (you said you've heard this from multiple sources), then if you were to try to co-author, wouldn't the other person be forced to rewrite your work? You did say you were willing to share the workload more or less equally. And if you aren't, in effect, writing half the story, then all that remains is that you supply the ideas while the other person writes the story. Which is exactly what people were criticizing. 

That's on the negative side. On the positive, if you were to find a writing partner, there's every chance that your own writing might improve as you work together. So there's every reason to try, however dubious some of us sound.


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## TheCatholicCrow (Dec 28, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> Just a word on co-authoring. I would put ghost writing as a sub-type of co-authoring. Often in that relationship, the instigator has ideas (e.g., her life story, anecdotes) but either cannot write well enough to sell, or lacks the confidence (or time) to try. I would not be surprised to find that in some cases, the instigator (is there a word for this?) might even have written a draft themselves, and so claim a co-author standing. I suspect ghost writing is a complex relationship.



I always prefer the term "client". It's as complicated as each person makes it. The better the outline and instructions are, the easier it is for the ghostwriter (I really do mean a COMPLETE outline, chapter by chapter with at least some understanding of who the characters are / should be). If the client is picky, they need to make sure their input is consistently given throughout the creation of the piece. I once worked for a client that gave me little than a two-page concept sheet. The client also didn't look over any of the work I gave her along the way. At the VERY END and after a month of work, she suddenly decided she didn't like it and informed me it was "different than she thought it would be". Ugh. I beg all of you to please don't be like that person. Easy-going clients are much less complex 

To the OP (and anyone interested in going this route): 

I think a discussion should be established whether the work is expected to be a first draft or the final thing. I've worked with clients that I loved, and clients that I struggled to communicate with. If anyone decides to go this route, it helps to first have a strong understanding of what you want from the story, but also a bit of flexibility for the ghostwriter to come in and extend a few scenes here and there or to take the basic plot point and twist it so every other scene isn't a coffee date with a six-page discussion on the merits of a dairy-free diet.  If the GW is under the word count and there just aren't enough scenes, the alternative would be to pad the word count with purple prose, filters, & all other manners of fillers. This is where it takes some trust between the client and GW. Unlike a traditional equal partnership, the client controls closer to 70 - 90% of the story (later removing or rejecting elements or flat out asking for rewrites). You *could* offer a GW a % of the royalties, but anyone that's done the work can tell you they'd only ever do that for higher profile or best selling (already established) writers. Otherwise the going rate for a beginner is something close to $1 per 100 words (if you want to pay slave wages) or $2 -5 per 100 words if you're a more ethical person. Well, that's my two-cents anyway


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## Daelhar (Dec 28, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> Just a word on co-authoring. I would put ghost writing as a sub-type of co-authoring. Often in that relationship, the instigator has ideas (e.g., her life story, anecdotes) but either cannot write well enough to sell, or lacks the confidence (or time) to try. I would not be surprised to find that in some cases, the instigator (is there a word for this?) might even have written a draft themselves, and so claim a co-author standing. I suspect ghost writing is a complex relationship.
> 
> In any case, ghost-written books clearly can succeed, so a request for co-authors is not a foolish request. I will point out, rather unnecessarily, that ghost writers get paid. But amateurs abound in every endeavor. The one question I'd ask of the OP is this: if your own writing is so poor (you said you've heard this from multiple sources), then if you were to try to co-author, wouldn't the other person be forced to rewrite your work? You did say you were willing to share the workload more or less equally. And if you aren't, in effect, writing half the story, then all that remains is that you supply the ideas while the other person writes the story. Which is exactly what people were criticizing.
> 
> That's on the negative side. On the positive, if you were to find a writing partner, there's every chance that your own writing might improve as you work together. So there's every reason to try, however dubious some of us sound.


So, as I have said, I am not looking for a "Ghost Writer". Despite my weaknesses, I can write some things very well. (I can make killer tension, and make extremely effective summaries necessary for plot movement). I am looking for somebody who compliments me and my writing. The person who accepts (if I find someone) will know about my writing. My writing is not atrocious, but neither myself nor 99.9999% of the world population would want to read a book I have written from start to finish.


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## Russ (Dec 29, 2017)

Steerpike said:


> He was pretty new at prose fiction. Lots of poetry. One obscure novel before The Vorrh I believe. In any event, whether it is harder to do well or not there's no reason to beat it out of new writers. If that's the style they've chosen, they should be helped to develop it, in my view. However, that places a greater burden on the critiquer.



I think it would be an author by author question if I was working with that young writer.  But there are plenty of other things I would want to beat out of developing writers before flowery prose.

I think there is great value in learning to write poetry for the novelist.  I regret never having done it.


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## skip.knox (Dec 29, 2017)

I got the impression from this
>I cannot write. I am terrible at writing. My descriptions are horrible, the point does not come across, 
>and the characters, though strong as characters, have weak dialogue.
that your writing was atrocious. I think that's where people got the idea that you wanted someone else to do the writing.

By your revision, maybe what you want is a developmental editor.


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## A. E. Lowan (Dec 29, 2017)

Russ said:


> I think there is great value in learning to write poetry for the novelist.  I regret never having done it.


Agreed. I am a trained poet from way back and it still informs in my writing. Poetry is basically prose in distilled form, and having a grounding in poetry, even though I don't write it, anymore, has given extra punch to my narrative, in my opinion.


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## Chessie2 (Dec 30, 2017)

Guess I'm the only one here that doesn't like poetry or who thinks that story is more important than prose. I mean, hard to read prose isn't going to keep me around. But if you have lovely words and no story, I'm just as gone. A strong combination of both is what makes good books imho. Then again, I don't believe in polishing and polishing and polishing to make my sentences all the shinier. That works for some authors but not for me. I choose to focus on story and emotion above all else. My prose may be simple (I think it is) but that's just how I write. Not everyone is going to like my work and I'm okay with that fact. Finally, this is more for the OP, I tend to write more pulp fiction vs literary fiction. So your focus is going to determine how well you want your prose. Either way, you're going to have to work hard to get anywhere whether or not you have a writing partner.


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## Daelhar (Dec 31, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> I got the impression from this
> >I cannot write. I am terrible at writing. My descriptions are horrible, the point does not come across,
> >and the characters, though strong as characters, have weak dialogue.
> that your writing was atrocious. I think that's where people got the idea that you wanted someone else to do the writing.
> ...


Um, no. I want what I asked for. A coauthor. My situation has changed however and I will not be able to put in much time or effort, because a health issue of a family member requires almost all of my attention. I am no longer looking for a COAUTHOR.


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## Xitra_Blud (Jan 1, 2018)

Yeah, a lot of people have said it here.

There was once a time in my life where I couldn't look back on a thing that I'd written in the past without finding it to be garbage. Lately, (and I think you also have to thank going to a critique group for this as well) I've been able to look at my own work that I'd written a few months in the past, and enjoy it. I also like to compare my writing when I first started to my writing now.

It's one of those things that you have work at, and there's also no harm in learning the craft and getting advice and critiques from others. Just start writing. It takes time, but like playing an instrument, practice makes perfect.


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