# The Value of Grit



## Ankari (Feb 26, 2013)

Greetings Folks, 

I ran across this blog post by Joe Abercrombie (I always mentally finish his name with "and Finch").  He tackles the subject of the rise of dark, gritty fantasies and the backlash he has received.  If you have the time, read it and share your thoughts.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 26, 2013)

Love it & I agree with everything he said. Reality, that which we live in, is a gritty, malicious place at times. These are the things we hide our children from when they're young while other children live it daily. Sure, there are beautiful things but beauty, as with all things, has a contrast. That contrast should be explored, every facet. Close character view points that do not approach these aspects seem immature to me as a reader at this point. I certainly don't want to write them which is why my work dives headlong into the dirt...violence...sex...drug abuse. These things help cast a dark side of the coin. 

I love what he says about honesty in writing. The things people want to read about often are the worst aspects of humanity. The evils of the world and how people deal with them are interesting and exciting stories. I often think that if you have a great true story of your life, your life was a hard one...a life that many wouldn't choose to live no matter how good the story at the end may be.

In my view, writing with honesty, as the world truly and naturally behaves, is the single most important part of modern story telling. Some people will not like it. I accept that. Many (I hope) will.


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## Philip Overby (Feb 26, 2013)

I just read this yesterday and thought it was pretty insightful.  I think what he says about writing with honesty was spot on as well.  I tend to lean more towards gritty fantasy myself, but I think that has to do less with the gore, sex, and cursing that so many others seem to associate with that kind of fiction.  It has more to do with the writer writing the kind of story he wants to write, regardless if it's trendy or whatever.  You can always tell when a writer is trying to write the type of story they don't want to write.  What makes Abercrombie appealing as a writer to me is that he focuses in on characters who think, act, and talk like real people.  I think some modern readers like this style of fantasy because for them the characters aren't a representative of a lofty ideal.  They feel like real people with real consequences to their actions.


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## Feo Takahari (Feb 26, 2013)

I mean no disrespect to Abercrombie, but the people I encounter online who _praise_ his work tend to talk about it in the same superficial blood-and-guts manner as the people he accuses of _criticizing_ his work. His intended message may have gotten through to a lot of people, but it sure hasn't gotten through to all of them (particularly the young ones.)

P.S. I keep deleting and undeleting this, but I want first and foremost to read about characters I can like, or at least be neutral towards. I've picked up plenty of fantasy stories that discussed dark subjects and had characters I liked, but whenever I picked up a fantasy that was openly marketed as "gritty" or "cynical", I wound up hating everyone by the end of the third chapter. (And believe me, it's hard to make me hate someone.)


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## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 26, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> I mean no disrespect to Abercrombie, but the people I encounter online who _praise_ his work tend to talk about it in the same superficial blood-and-guts manner as the people he accuses of _criticizing_ his work. His intended message may have gotten through to a lot of people, but it sure hasn't gotten through to all of them (particularly the young ones.)
> 
> P.S. I keep deleting and undeleting this, but I want first and foremost to read about characters I can like, or at least be neutral towards. I've picked up plenty of fantasy stories that discussed dark subjects and had characters I liked, but whenever I picked up a fantasy that was openly marketed as "gritty" or "cynical", I wound up hating everyone by the end of the third chapter. (And believe me, it's hard to make me hate someone.)



He states in the blog post that this style of writing, like any other, is not for everyone. Some will like it, some won't. His commentary is focused on the validity of gritty fantasy and naysayers who trash it as lowborn. Some feel that a higher dose of reality in fantasy is enjoyable.. that it is a more accurate representaion of a plausible world. 

It's a bit far fetched to criticize a view point from what you've gleaned off online reviews or from proponents of gore. There's a deepness of character that's completely overlooked in that viewpoint.


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## BWFoster78 (Feb 26, 2013)

Grits are very valuable, especially in the American south.  Staple breakfast food.

Oh, GRIT not GRITS. 

Very well, then.

Interesting that he echos what T.Allen says in the worldbuilding thread that there's a trend in modern fantasy to emphasize character over setting.

While I agree with that, the rest I can leave.

When I was in high school, I read a lot of Stephen King and found that, while I loved reading his books because I couldn't put them down, I hated how depressed I felt by the end.

Good fiction transports the reader emotionally into the story.  Grit and horror leave you depressed.  Personally, I'd prefer to be happy.


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## WyrdMystic (Feb 26, 2013)

I like a bit of grit in fantasy, though would not want all fantasy to have grit. There needs to be a range so you have choice as to what kind of story you want to read given your mood at the time.

My objection comes when there is too much grit, when every evil soldier is a rapist, when every ugly inn keeper is a child abuser, where every antagonist likes to do nothing but torture for reason other than to shock. There comes a point where it ceases to be shocking, where it loses all value and ends up as nothing more than off putting.

I like Terry Brooks – put any grit in those books, you ruin them in my view. I also like Steven Erikson’s Forge of Darkness – that is grit incarnate.

In summary – grit, like anything else, can be good or bad, well done or misused.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 26, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Good fiction transports the reader emotionally into the story.  Grit and horror leave you depressed.  Personally, I'd prefer to be happy.



Properly done, the dirty aspects can make the beautiful shine with greater luster. Overcoming harsh realities can lift the spirit. Although I agree this is often not the focus of the darker side of writing.

Shawshank Redemption is full of gritty darkness. Yet it also shines with inspiration and stories of redemption - written by Stephen King.


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## Steerpike (Feb 26, 2013)

I like gritty stories, and I like horror stories, provided they are well done. Neither of them leaves me depressed. I admit that I also like the sort of corny happy-ending story when it is well done. Whether the stories are happy or tragic, I find they don't usually have a substantial impact on my actual mood once I put them down. They're works of fiction. It would be weird to walk around all day either depressed or giddy over what I read. Wouldn't it?


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## BWFoster78 (Feb 26, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> I like gritty stories, and I like horror stories, provided they are well done. Neither of them leaves me depressed. I admit that I also like the sort of corny happy-ending story when it is well done. Whether the stories are happy or tragic, I find they don't usually have a substantial impact on my actual mood once I put them down. They're works of fiction. It would be weird to walk around all day either depressed or giddy over what I read. Wouldn't it?



Maybe I'm more emotionally impacted by fiction than the average person.  If I'm feeling down or stressed, reading a good book or watching an uplifting movie improves my mode.

Again, I feel that one of the purposes of fiction is to transport the reader, both mentally and emotionally.  If the writing doesn't do that, what's the point?  And if it does, how can you not be affected?


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## BWFoster78 (Feb 26, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Properly done, the dirty aspects can make the beautiful shine with greater luster. Overcoming harsh realities can lift the spirit. Although I agree this is often not the focus of the darker side of writing.
> 
> Shawshank Redemption is full of gritty darkness. Yet it also shines with inspiration and stories of redemption - written by Stephen King.



All I know is that, for the most part, reading King and GRRM leave me feeling down at the end.  Perhaps there are some stories that didn't, but, for the most part, that's just the way it is (was?).


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## Penpilot (Feb 26, 2013)

I know of Abercrombie but this is the first thing I've ever read of his, and I couldn't agree more. There's room for all types of stories in the fantasy genre. People complaint about grit is like people, who only like vanilla and strawberry complaining about that new flavor chocolate that's suddenly shown up. Or having an aneurism when the suddenly see the 101 flavors sign. They say I don't want more than two flavors. Who would ever want more than two flavors? Well, two flavors can get pretty boring for some.


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## Steerpike (Feb 26, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Again, I feel that one of the purposes of fiction is to transport the reader, both mentally and emotionally.  If the writing doesn't do that, what's the point?  And if it does, how can you not be affected?



It does, while I'm reading it. Similarly, a movie has that effect while I'm watching it. Every few are the works that continue to have any emotional effect once I put the book down, though there are plenty that I think about afterwards.

Actually, this distinction seems to separate, for example, horror fans from non-horror fans. Or at least, it seems to be one distinction. People I know who like horror books and movies tend to feel the tension or the 'scare' while in the middle of the work, but separate themselves from it once it is over. The people I know who don't like those things tend to continue to be affected, having nightmares or feeling down or whatever. Makes sense. If that was my reaction to those things, then I doubt I'd enjoy them.


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## BWFoster78 (Feb 26, 2013)

> Actually, this distinction seems to separate, for example, horror fans from non-horror fans. Or at least, it seems to be one distinction. People I know who like horror books and movies tend to feel the tension or the 'scare' while in the middle of the work, but separate themselves from it once it is over. The people I know who don't like those things tend to continue to be affected, having nightmares or feeling down or whatever. Makes sense. If that was my reaction to those things, then I doubt I'd enjoy them.



Makes sense, and explains why I prefer not to read grit.

Just to be clear, I don't object to the presence of such; I just don't prefer to read it myself.  If one likes that sort of thing, go for it.


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## Steerpike (Feb 26, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Just to be clear, I don't object to the presence of such; I just don't prefer to read it myself.  If one likes that sort of thing, go for it.



Oh yeah, I knew what you meant  Likewise, I don't think everyone should like that sort of thing. There is a lot of variation in what people like and dislike, and how they react to certain things, which is as it should be. I enjoyed being scared by ghost stories from the time I was a little kid and my grandmother in Georgia would tell them to me. My daughter is the same way. Other family members, not so much. Viva la diffÃ©rence.


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## Feo Takahari (Feb 26, 2013)

I've been thinking about this overnight, and I think my problem with the "gritty" books I've read is a worse version of my problem with Libertarian fiction. I never get a sense that there's anything the protagonists want other than money, sex, booze, or occasionally power, and it's never implied that there's anything they wouldn't do in order to obtain these things. The only reason to root for the protagonists over everyone else who wants the same things is that the protagonists are usually smarter.

P.S., in response to Penpilot: the analogy only applies if they sell "grownup" ice cream and "kid" ice cream, and you have to buy the "kid" ice cream to get pure chocolate. In and of itself, grit hasn't taken over, but a more general darkness of subject matter has become pervasive, crowding out the old style of adventure fantasy. (Admittedly, I'm part of the problem there . . .)


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## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 26, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> ...money, sex, booze, or occasionally power, and it's never implied that there's anything they wouldn't do in order to obtain these things.


A partial list of some of the strongest motivators in the human condition, based on our reality. 

Moral dilemmas and blurred lines of right and wrong, dependent on a character's viewpoint, are often central to these story types. This is also the way of our real world. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Our world is colored by the eye of the beholder with few absolutes.

In most gritty stories I've read, these are the types of drivers & obstacles that protagonists need to overcome, grow to understand, or transcend.


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## Penpilot (Feb 26, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> P.S., in response to Penpilot: the analogy only applies if they sell "grownup" ice cream and "kid" ice cream, and you have to buy the "kid" ice cream to get pure chocolate. In and of itself, grit hasn't taken over, but a more general darkness of subject matter has become pervasive, crowding out the old style of adventure fantasy. (Admittedly, I'm part of the problem there . . .)



Correct me if I'm not interpreting your response correctly. But I think if you can't find enough of the flavor that you like, maybe you're not looking in the right places, or unlike me, you devour books by the boat load and there isn't much that you haven't read. 

I usually never have trouble finding something that fits my mood at the moment, whether it's dark, light, or some shade between. If the new stuff is too dark, why not look back at some of the older stuff out there and search that out. Like others have said, the darkness prevalent in current works is pendulum swing in the opposite direction of the lightness of earlier works. It's a shift balancing things out. I have no doubt sooner or later the pendulum will swing back the other way in response to the plentiful darkness.


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## Alex97 (Feb 26, 2013)

It's good that the choice exists.  I can't understand why people would object to grit's existence.  If you don't like it, don't read it.

I enjoy a mix of the two; they both serve a purpose.  I might be over generalizing here, but to me gritty fiction is more of a  reflection of the harder truths in life as opposed to the more classic fantasy which often serves as a from of escapism.  I like reading both, but I prefer writing grittier fiction.

I don't think grittier fiction necessarily means every character should be evil, money grabbing, rapist villains.  Characters should certainly have to face these temptations as part of the story.  The lack of an obvious good or evil sides is another thing that I enjoy about gritty fantasy.  In GRMM's novels there are a lot of nasty characters, but there are also those the author roots for (who usually end up snuffing it...)


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Feb 26, 2013)

I can take grit in moderation, but I need some hope. ASOIAF is about as much as I can take; everyone's mean and cruel all the time for no apparent reason, even when it makes no sense to do so. In fact as cruel as everyone is, it's implausible that the world would have survived as long as it has appeared to.

That said, it's still crackerjack writing, and I'm invested in it now, so I guess I'm in it for the long haul. At least there's only two more books to go; ASOIAF is a mere spring chicken compared to wading through the colossal Wheel of Time. (Which I just finished a couple of weeks ago.)


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## Philip Overby (Feb 27, 2013)

I wouldn't say ASOIAF is full of nothing but cruel characters just doing cruel things for the sake of it.  They all have their own separate motivations for the things they do.  I get the sense that this is a dangerous world with lots of ambitious people.  Of all the main characters, I'd say only Joffrey seems cruel just for the sake of it.  He has no rhyme or reason for what he does, which makes him all that more horrifying.  However, some of the other characters who have done cruel things, such as Cersei, has her own motivations and reasons for doing things the way she has.  

I think the key for having a gritty world that people can connect with is in the characters.  Anyone can just write something with lots of cursing, killing, and sex in it.  It's like the horror genre has a lot to offer as well.  But a lot of people only think of the grotesque stuff that comes with it and not the characters, emotions, etc.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Feb 27, 2013)

I didn't say they were being cruel just for the sake of it; I was saying that numerous characters are frequently cruel (or just mean or rude or unnecessarily hostile) for no _apparent reason_. They may have motivations, but often we have no idea what they are. Yeah, people can be ambitious, but a LOT of the characters (not all the main characters, but many, MANY secondary characters) are just complete b**tards for no apparent reason. It gets old after a while. If I wasn't so invested in the lore and the characters, I'd have stopped reading by now, because it's super depressing.


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## Philip Overby (Feb 27, 2013)

I guess I'm more invested in the main characters that I don't care too much if the secondary characters all have clear motivations.  Sometimes when I think about Martin's characters or stuff that happens, I think of American History X.  I won't spoil it for those who haven't seen it, but there are some things that happen in that movie that show the depth of human cruelty and hatred and the senselessness of some actions.  I like all sorts of fantasy, but I tend to lean towards that which IS darker simply because that's my own personal taste.  If a book makes me depressed, happy, frustrated, crazy, then it evoked an emotion and therefore is doing its job.


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## Amanita (Feb 27, 2013)

Interesting discussion.
I prefer a kind of hybrid version. A world where there's plenty of light and happiness until bad things happen. When they do, I like to see those bad things happen in realistic detail however and have realistic consquences. 
I'm really annoyed by books that feature things like torture, rape, death of loved ones, serious injury or illness etc and those things don't have any consequences as soon as the happy ending is reached. Especially, if the characters involved are easily "cured" by finding love, defeating the bad guys or anything like that.
That doesn't mean I don't want to see hope but it should be realistic given the situation that has been created. 
For me, the impact of "darker" events is much greater if they're coming upon people who've been happy and unsuspecting before than if the main character has been a homeless prostitute for all her life or a battle-hardened mercenary. 
In no way do I want to state that stories about homeless prostitutes and battle-hardened mercenaries shouldn't be written and some of them may interest me as well but my favorite is the darkness creeping up in the ordinary.

I'm quite aware of the fact that my approach might pose problems as far as finding the right target audience is concerned though. My story has a main character who's mainly suffering from normal teenage problems and insecurity issues until she has to fight for her life which turns really nasty.


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