# Half pregnant



## gavintonks (Sep 12, 2012)

I have noticed that all the other crit review sites I have participated in or participate in insist that you participate in crits before you are allowed to post work for criticism.

This site has become extremely valuable in terms of the information contained here in cyber space and the level of commitment of members to responses is awesome, but seldom reciprocated.
The same faces comment on many of the works, while the thousands get pregnant without the effort. This does not seem fair, as it is a one sided affair. Of all the stories posted in the please help, comment read section, how many of those manuscript writers have reciprocated and read someone else's work?

I think we should have a 5 crit limit before you can post work for review. Let the knives begin


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## Aosto (Sep 12, 2012)

I think many come here for help. And some are more qualified than others when it comes to offering that help. People who post for review/editorial assistance do so because they are seeking those qualified persons for assistance. 
I could give a critique, but it would be less valuable then others. I have been writing for a few months where as some have been for years. 
I feel that as long as the member is active in the forums, and lends insight when they can, then that is acceptable.


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## gavintonks (Sep 12, 2012)

To read is human so anyone can read and offer an opinion it is what is asked for. Many people do not like the unfolded criticism and suggestions. 
The point is every person reads, so reading is first prize, 2nd reading through another state of mind helps to know what you should not be doing as if you read it, so it is as educational as a crit
This is not a test from a phd professor this is opinion in an open forum, and that costs nothing to give as it is an emotional response.  

Just because a person lurks or does the blog thing on the forums means that they get hours of value without investing back. Whether you think you are competent or not,just courtesy should make you reciprocate, it is after all what people are asking for, why should one person be entitled to a response and solid input Like Foster who seriously puts effort into his review and Lorna and others gets a simple response by reading his work in turn and just saying / yes I would buy or no I would not, or it is not my genre


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## gavintonks (Sep 12, 2012)

I feel that there should be value attached and not expectation of value and that value is in giving back what you are given. Even if we reduce it to a monetary value and say an average person has spent an hour and that is US$10 you have for free with good intentions, how can you not reciprocate with the same good intention, but simply reading manuscript excerpt post and leaving am honest comment?

I think it is the right thing to do


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## gavintonks (Sep 12, 2012)

every point of view in this highly competitive environment adds value and your value should not be so easily dismissed because you are not commenting from an editing perspective. Readers are not editors they are people who like to read, they want the story the best way they can get it, and that is why every person here should take a little time out and read when someone asks


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## Aosto (Sep 12, 2012)

I'm not arguing that someone shouldn't offer a critique in return. A lot of the requests made are generally for line-by-line edits or grammar correction. I'm more then happy to offer up my honest review of a piece, but am in no way qualified to offer the above mentioned. 
Other then those points. I agree with you. If you are able to offer an honest review then do so. However this forum is much more then posting to the showcase and looking for a crit. I feel that if someone is an active member and offers input on other topics presented, then that person should be allowed to offer up a piece for crit. 
This is not to say that we HAVE to critique it. However i'm sure others such as Foster who are common faces in the showcase enjoy doing what they do.


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## gavintonks (Sep 12, 2012)

My point is only related to posting a crit, if you wish to be critted then crit in return, or crit then you can post to be critted


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## CupofJoe (Sep 12, 2012)

I think all your suggestion will result in is lots of "I liked it" or  "It sucked" posts as people try to maintain their criteria for  membership. Yes in a perfect world everyone would offer up a fair, just  and reasoned critique of every piece they read but making people do it  could ruin the nature of this forum.
Personally I don't think I have much in the way of writing _chops_  to critique other people work and I don't do it very often.  And why would someone who doesn't know me want my opinion on how they should  write?
I have learnt a lot about writing in the last few weeks at the forum and  if I feel I have relevant knowledge or experience then I will share it  in an appropriate post. I hope that is how I contribute without having to critique others. 
As for Lurkers... in the  first place it takes a lot of courage to join a group like this and then you see  there are published writers here with several books under their belt as  well as others with hundreds of posts and thousands of reputation points  - it can seem somewhat intimidating to proverbially stick your hand up and have everyone stare at you...


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## gavintonks (Sep 12, 2012)

Hhahahah CupofJoe life is so short people loose a life in waiting and it is liberating to have an opinion, it builds character


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## Amanita (Sep 12, 2012)

I don't really see any need for this. 
We're all doing this in our free time and if something on the Showcase catches my interest, I read it and write a comment. I don't think that the Showcase is suffering from a lack of comments and if some people like to comment and feel confident enough to do so, while others do not, where's the problem? Reading stories here and writing something about them isn't working time we expect payment for is it? 
I can't think of many people who are flooding the Showcase with texts but never review anything themselves at the moment.


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## Rikilamaro (Sep 12, 2012)

Here's my two cents:

If you see someone constantly posting for critique and that someone never reads anyone else's work - for the love of all that's holy - don't read their work or critique it. They'll eventually get the hint that they have to give back to the community or we'll ignore them.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Sep 12, 2012)

I feel that one of the reasons our showcase is special is because we don't have limits. 

I've done quite a few critiques but I've never posted. Instead, I'm working with a small group of people from our forums in private critique. Why? Mainly because our showcase is often directed more towards beginning writers needing help & I think that's awesome. Now that's not always the case. Occasionally you'll see a more seasoned writer throw their literary hat in the ring & that's fine too.

My point is that people that may need more guidance, direction, or support feel free to post there work here without the need to comment on another's work. Although I understand your point Gavin, if I was just a beginner I may very well shy away from offering my opinion because I didn't feel qualified.

If you're looking for more critiques of your work I'd suggest finding a few MS members as partners and performing crits on each others works. That's the fairest way to handle it. In groups formed for this purpose you have an obligation to one another. Here, the freedom to ask for assistance while learning the basics is an important aspect that differentiates MS.

I think that should be held onto with a white knuckled grasp.

As a final thought... If you are a member that reads showcase entries but has yet to offer critique you should understand that critiquing the work of others will help you grow as a writer in leaps & bounds. No need to be afraid for any reason.


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## writeshiek33 (Sep 12, 2012)

i always try to leave feedback to those i have read it is only fair


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## Chilari (Sep 12, 2012)

I don't think a crit limit is necessary or even useful. Sites that have one are frequently (though not always) primarily crit sites. People go there for one reason, and leave when that is fulfilled. Here we have a variety of discussions going on, covering writing, worldbuilding, publishing and more. I don't think you should be obliged to contribute to one specific section to gain benefit from it. Some people don't enjoy critiquing other's work, or don't know what to say about it, or feel awkward about it, or simply aren't experienced enough as writers. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to ask for feedback, and it doesn't mean they can't contribute in other areas, like research or marketing. I see this as more of a fluid, communal space than a rigid one.

Edit: also, while some of us don't go in the Showcase much, that doesn't mean we're not critiquing the work of other members. For my part I feel overwhelmed by the Showcase. My time is limited, and there are always so many stories, not all of them of subgenres I enjoy. How do I chose which to read and which to leave? Plus I'm always paranoid I'll come off as pretentious and patronising. So I prefer to work on a more intimate level when reviewing someone else's work - through PMs with someone I have had some prior conversation with.

Having said that, if there is someone abusing the goodwill of MS members by posting a lot of their writing but not giving back to the community in some way (eg if they know a lot about horses or the Aztec civilisation or whatever, by posting in the research forum, or by getting involved in discussions about grammar, or even just by posting links to interesting articles or amusing videos) then maybe a relevant moderator should be notified and they can check out the situation and send a politely worded PM to the accused.


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## Zero Angel (Sep 12, 2012)

This is an interesting idea. I would crit more but I tend to come off more harsh than not maybe. I mean, I wrote a 5-star review of Way of Kings and ended up mainly discussing what I DIDN'T like about the book -_-

I actually like reviewing books, but I can't imagine that I would enjoy critiquing first or second drafts of people I do not have a relationship with. If someone I talk to on here is looking for a critique, please let me know. I'm always glad to help out (although I do work 3 jobs so patience please  )


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## Caged Maiden (Sep 12, 2012)

I think good will is the bar here.  For the people who never give back, they will ultimately understand.  To the people who post good critiques and spend hours of their time, keep going, because even if the OP doesn't appreciate your words, I do, and I learn from doing critiques as well as reading the ones you write.


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## Jess A (Sep 13, 2012)

Reading some of the above comments, something struck me - maybe some people don't feel comfortable posting a critique because they feel others here will ridicule them for lacking 'expertise'. This is a sad thing if true. Nobody should be forced to critique something (perhaps being forced will result in less quality, as someone mentioned above). But people should feel they are able to speak without receiving a sarcastic or condescending response. This does not relate to me - I could not care less what people think of my inexperience. I wouldn't be here if I knew everything (or much of anything on certain topics, for that matter). But I do wonder if it's the case with some others. This forum is better than many I've seen when it comes to fair and balanced debate, but not invulnerable.


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## gavintonks (Sep 13, 2012)

My point is about doing the right thing it has nothing to do with how things are running but a situation based on a current attitude I see around me in my country and then thought but hang on is this not the same here
1 - expectation of getting without giving
2 -my analogy of worth in monetary term is just that making people consider the value they are getting from the time, so just give a little back, it is not an unreasonable request
3 - I am not sure how you think my comment highlights any dysfunctionality within the site or how it is used, or flooded comments this is about a simple premise, you have been helped help in return

It is the same as the thanks button, here you have taken the trouble to respond and that's great and deserves a thank


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## gavintonks (Sep 13, 2012)

hahahhahah ignoring people is a negative response, is it not better that they have a conscious prick before hand


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## T.Allen.Smith (Sep 13, 2012)

gavintonks said:


> 3 - I am not sure how you think my comment highlights any dysfunctionality within the site or how it is used, or flooded comments this is about a simple premise, you have been helped help in return



People are responding to your comments with a focus on site functionality because, in your original post, you stated:

"I think we should have a 5 crit limit before you can post work for review."


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## gavintonks (Sep 13, 2012)

what you highlight regarding critiquing being so good for you, then a little bit of medicine would not be bad. I have no personal issues other than it concerns me that people get value and it should be reciprocated that input is considered some one else's responsibility because of some obscure emotion called "I fear" that is not a strong enough reason to avoid providing a critique


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## gavintonks (Sep 13, 2012)

This has got nothing to do with any one abusing the system or the board, it is about a trend I noticed that has resonated with the current political turmoil we have in our country. It has made me consider the objectivity of people to benefit without reciprocation, as a human thing and not necessarily a good thing.

Your point about the type of story is interesting maybe people should post a story guideline to appeal to a reader by genre


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## T.Allen.Smith (Sep 13, 2012)

gavintonks said:


> what you highlight regarding critiquing being so good for you, then a little bit of medicine would not be bad. I have no personal issues other than it concerns me that people get value and it should be reciprocated that input is considered some one else's responsibility because of some obscure emotion called "I fear" that is not a strong enough reason to avoid providing a critique



It's not a good reason for you or I perhaps but it's difficult to assume the same sentiment for others. I believe in reciprocation as well but I'm certainly not going to be fussed if people choose not to critique something I post publicly. If you desire true reciprocation & commitment, you should form an writing group.


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## gavintonks (Sep 13, 2012)

Harsh is so peculiar as well, as honesty is not harsh it is truth, you can only grow from truth as I doubt anyone is malicious in their intent when providing a crit. Your offer is extremely overgenerous


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## gavintonks (Sep 13, 2012)

The web has provided an explosive force for people to have an opinion, which requires tempering but also understanding, You are the only one who can take offense, so I think people are maturing and realizing it is debate not slander. I was running a political page on facebook and the political rhetoric and slander was horrific, I eventually left but it has spawned some new places where politic is now dialogue and their is respect for beliefs. This is the root of the same humanity that I sense is lacking. maybe a biblical phrase - do unto others as you would like to have done to you is appropriate


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## gavintonks (Sep 13, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> People are responding to your comments with a focus on site functionality because, in your original post, you stated:
> 
> "I think we should have a 5 crit limit before you can post work for review."



Well that is what I am thinking, otherwise I would say, there is a large amount of abuse and to control the abuse this is what is required. My point of debate is purely from the standpoint of sometimes it is good for people to have to get wet, and if their is so much stress about something that is really natural. We have opinions about published books, moves and even being on this site, I think it is much harder to put work up for open criticism than it is to provide a critique.


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## Chilari (Sep 13, 2012)

Control isn't always desirable. People are free to stay or leave as they like. If there are limits in what they can do here, they might decide to go somewhere else. If they come for help with their first chapter and find the place friendsly and welcoming, they may well stick around and subsequently provide critique, take part in discussions and help someone researching the types of fabric commonly used in the early medieval period in France. Telling someone they can't get help until they've given some is not welcoming and they might decide to find somewhere else to go instead. And that's just not how this forum goes. The members that stick around give a little and take a little, and not all the value created here is in the Showcase.

Now, if there is abuse - and I'm not sure that there is; no mods have brought it up in the super secret moderator forum in any case - but if there is, then we can deal with the individual abusing the system we have. But we don't need to limit the actions of all current and potential members on the off chance that someone comes along and abuses the system. If it isn't a problem when there are no sanctions in place, and the potential harm caused by it if it becomes a problem is minimal (nobody is going to get hurt by one member posting a lot in the Showcase, are they?), no action needs to be taken to prevent it from becoming a problem if said action will cause disruption. It's like putting traffic lights up at a crossroads where two tiny country roads  cross - it causes more trouble than it's worth. You're gonna get about ten cars and probably as many tractors a day using those roads. You don't need traffic lights when some white lines will do. And at the moment, with a requirement for members to post five times before they can use the Showcase, we've got all the white lines we need.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Sep 13, 2012)

I don't think there's any need to enforce a crit quota system of some kind here. It's a casual environment and it wouldn't be worth the effort here.

If someone is constantly asking for crits and never providing any, they will get a bad reputation and people will stop providing crits for them. It's a small enough community that the free-rider problem is negligible.

I understand your concern about the national political environment, but that's not really relevant to whether we're going to furnish a crit quota system. There's no plans (or, from our perspective, need) to do so.*

*Usual disclaimers apply.


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## Zero Angel (Sep 14, 2012)

Chilari said:


> Now, if there is abuse - and I'm not sure that there is; no mods have brought it up in the super secret moderator forum in any case



 IT DOES EXIST!


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## Steerpike (Sep 14, 2012)

Zero Angel said:


> IT DOES EXIST!



And now we have to 'take care of' another member. I hope this isn't going to be like the cleansing of 2011. I never got the blood out of my shirt. Where do you live again, Zero Angel?


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## psychotick (Sep 14, 2012)

Hi,

I'm not sure whether it matters so much whether there is a crit limit or not before review. I'm on other sites where there is and have no problem with it, but enforcement of such a thing will always put some people's backs up.

Personally I think the thing that has to be emphasised is that giving criticism is often one way a writer can improve his or her own work. It has helped in me as I see in other people's work the same problems that have existed in my own but which I couldn't see until then.

Maybe instead of a limit there could be a counter beside each person's avatar advising that they have contributed so many critics, which might serve as an incentive.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Caged Maiden (Sep 14, 2012)

I like the system here.  Some days I feel like doing a crit to help someone out, sometimes I don't have a lot of time.    

I'm more inclined to respond to someone I've seen around quite a while, especially if I've seen them helping others, and I hope people would do the same for me.  

There are also people I avoid critiquing for, especially people I'm not very familiar with, or people who post in a really desperate way.  I've been burned by leaving feedback before, and I have to admit, it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  So this really is about establishing a community, where we get to know each other and learn some trust, versus simply scratching my back because I scratched yours.  

I think most of the people on this site are here to help, with the very best intentions.  Are we all the best advice-givers?  No, but our hearts are in the right places, and it's up to every individual writer to take a critique seriously or roll their eyes and say, "thanks for your time."

I've done many more critiques than I've received on this site, but I found a couple awesome critique partners here, so I pay the community back for that.  Also, we've had some really good research debates in the last year, and I've sent people loads of material by email to help them (and received some very one-on-one type help from experts in fields other than the ones I've studied).  All this goes toward community-building, and it is no less important than the critiques on the Showcase.

Thanks to everyone who makes this a community bent on mutual support and encouragement.


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## Flemming Hansen (Sep 14, 2012)

In my opinion, there are more ways to help then doing crits. Some help posting replies on specific questions on the forum, and others help by crits. I think things are fine the way they are.


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## gavintonks (Sep 14, 2012)

Chilari said:


> Control isn't always desirable. People are free to stay or leave as they like. If there are limits in what they can do here, they might decide to go somewhere else. If they come for help with their first chapter and find the place friendsly and welcoming, they may well stick around and subsequently provide critique, take part in discussions and help someone researching the types of fabric commonly used in the early medieval period in France. Telling someone they can't get help until they've given some is not welcoming and they might decide to find somewhere else to go instead. And that's just not how this forum goes. The members that stick around give a little and take a little, and not all the value created here is in the Showcase.
> 
> Now, if there is abuse - and I'm not sure that there is; no mods have brought it up in the super secret moderator forum in any case - but if there is, then we can deal with the individual abusing the system we have. But we don't need to limit the actions of all current and potential members on the off chance that someone comes along and abuses the system. If it isn't a problem when there are no sanctions in place, and the potential harm caused by it if it becomes a problem is minimal (nobody is going to get hurt by one member posting a lot in the Showcase, are they?), no action needs to be taken to prevent it from becoming a problem if said action will cause disruption. It's like putting traffic lights up at a crossroads where two tiny country roads  cross - it causes more trouble than it's worth. You're gonna get about ten cars and probably as many tractors a day using those roads. You don't need traffic lights when some white lines will do. And at the moment, with a requirement for members to post five times before they can use the Showcase, we've got all the white lines we need.



I am not sure why the case of abuse is brought up when I am merely discussing is it a good idea for people to have to crit before their work is critter-ed, I have not seen any abuse of the forum or this page, It is purely an observation on my part to say - is it a good idea for people to participate by reciprocation when they are getting such good value here?


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## gavintonks (Sep 14, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> I don't think there's any need to enforce a crit quota system of some kind here. It's a casual environment and it wouldn't be worth the effort here.
> 
> If someone is constantly asking for crits and never providing any, they will get a bad reputation and people will stop providing crits for them. It's a small enough community that the free-rider problem is negligible.
> 
> ...



I am trying to unravel a fundamental human principle and see if this 'flaw' for want of a better word that I am seeing in human nature is resonating in other spheres of life, and when I was reading some of the posts I realized that their is a similarity here in this particular area of the board, where people post their work. It would be extremely presumptuous of me to presume to change the rules or interfere in the workings of the board - period. How ever I thought it appropriate to garner feedback by the post. By entitling it half pregnant in itself should be a key, as there is no such thing as half pregnant, so the objective is to understand why some people do not feel that they should reciprocate when they have received a valuable asset?


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## gavintonks (Sep 14, 2012)

hahahah the luminati have you now - oh woe one less critter


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## gavintonks (Sep 14, 2012)

Flemming Hansen said:


> In my opinion, there are more ways to help then doing crits. Some help posting replies on specific questions on the forum, and others help by crits. I think things are fine the way they are.



I am only focused on this area as it reveals a fundamental issue I see in human nature, self analysis is an important tool to growth. As caged Maiden has said there are people who have left a very bad taste in members mouths, I know the moderators banned one person, for this reason. It does take years to build trust and loyalty and of course there are a very diverse group of personalities and the personal nature that one views your work.

At the end of the day it is personal choices,it just saddens me that people are becoming more selfish and the spirit of sharing is being lost, as people are becoming more used to having things for free from the web.I think this has brought home another fundamental issue maybe even guilt, as one is aware of the costs that the host pays to have this site here, for us to enjoy as a free platform. I think we get so lost in our own worlds we have forgotten the sacrifices others have made to make places like this possible.  

I am working on a concept of giving people free education through sponsorship and data base access and this concept within human nature of liking things for free, but will they give back? The dilemma in the publishing world is no different in terms of what people are prepared to pay for entertainment.  The spend on alcohol they will not think twice to pay the price of a book for a bottle of whiskey, will pay to see a bad movie but when it comes to sharing on the web, it is a free for all.

So we are developing a culture of 'will you give back?' probably not


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## Chilari (Sep 14, 2012)

I don't think forcing people to help before they can recieve it will promote a sense of share and share alike. Enforcing such a system won't change people for the better. I think in general, it is the new writers who ask for help and the more experienced writers who offer it. Partly that's because new readers need more help and experienced writers have more to offer, but partly, I think, it's because new writers have yet to learn the social etiquette involved in providing and receiving critiques online. Now, perhaps enforcing a system where they must provide critiques before they can receive any may get them into the mindset that this is how it works, or perhaps it will be seen as a barrier to new writers who wouldn't know the first thing about critiquing another's work and may as a result either not share their own work, which means they don't improve and the Showcase becomes stagnant, or else provide short, unhelpful critiques in a rush so they can get help, which results in a lowering of the standards of critiquing and thus lessens the value of the Showcase.

Meanwhile by keeping the current system, new writers asking for help receive quality feedback, rather than rushed feedback from people no more experienced than themselves who just want to get help. Thus they are exposed to good quality feedback at a higher ratio. Thus they learn what good feedback is, and are then better equipped to give some. Once the eagerness to share their work fades after posting it, they may decide to stick around and read other people's work and the feedback they've recieved, and maybe then give some feedback in a more patient, considered manner than they would if forced to provide it before they can submit their own work for feedback.


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## gavintonks (Sep 14, 2012)

Paradox of modern living = well I for one hope they see the value of reading and criting, as much as it is perceived as a negative it is the only way to grow, as how else do you know if your work passes muster?


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Sep 15, 2012)

gavintonks said:


> so the objective is to understand why some people do not feel that they should reciprocate when they have received a valuable asset?



Er... because it's human nature (and the nature of almost all lifeforms) to try to gain resources without having to expend any of their own energy? Organisms that didn't evolve that instinct didn't do very well.

Certainly we should try to encourage reciprocation, but again, there's no need here for a formal system.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Sep 15, 2012)

If you _really_ want a good rule for critting, here's an idea:

*When someone asks for feedback, never talk about grammar or spelling (except, perhaps, for glaring, heinous errors). Talk about characterization, pacing, and story/scene structure.* Those are a lot harder to get right than whether the prose flows.


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## gavintonks (Sep 15, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Er... because it's human nature (and the nature of almost all lifeforms) to try to gain resources without having to expend any of their own energy? Organisms that didn't evolve that instinct didn't do very well.
> 
> Certainly we should try to encourage reciprocation, but again, there's no need here for a formal system.



To er is divine the rest is huma


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## Ireth (Sep 15, 2012)

gavintonks said:


> To er is divine the rest is huma



Not the way I've heard it. "To err is human; to forgive, divine."


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## Chilari (Sep 15, 2012)

The way I've heard it is "To err is human, but to really mess things up, you need a computer."


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## Jess A (Sep 15, 2012)

psychotick said:


> Maybe instead of a limit there could be a counter beside each person's avatar advising that they have contributed so many critics, which might serve as an incentive.
> 
> Cheers, Greg.



Incentives work better than red tape. I think this is a valid idea. If writers and forum-users place value on sharing critiques, then surely this counter could serve as an addition to one's reputation. I've no idea how it would be coded, but it is a good idea.


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## Zero Angel (Sep 16, 2012)

Little Storm Cloud said:


> Incentives work better than red tape. I think this is a valid idea. If writers and forum-users place value on sharing critiques, then surely this counter could serve as an addition to one's reputation. I've no idea how it would be coded, but it is a good idea.



I think the idea here is that if you critique someone's work and they appreciated your help that you should click on the "Thanks" button to add to their reputation. Splitting off critiques might make it seem like we think critiques are more important than being helpful and useful in the other forums.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Sep 16, 2012)

Chilari said:


> The way I've heard it is "To err is human, but to really mess things up, you need a computer."



Tangentially: "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history—with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila."


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## gavintonks (Sep 17, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Tangentially: "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history—with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila."



and marriage


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## gavintonks (Sep 17, 2012)

Just though of god going errrrrrrrrrrr humans


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## Jess A (Sep 18, 2012)

Zero Angel said:


> I think the idea here is that if you critique someone's work and they appreciated your help that you should click on the "Thanks" button to add to their reputation. Splitting off critiques might make it seem like we think critiques are more important than being helpful and useful in the other forums.



True, but it was a good suggestion from psychotik and I thought it should be noted. My point here is that red tape can be very off-putting in a forum situation.


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## gavintonks (Sep 19, 2012)

Little Storm Cloud said:


> True, but it was a good suggestion from psychotik and I thought it should be noted. My point here is that red tape can be very off-putting in a forum situation.



very true managing today takes hours


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## Jess A (Sep 20, 2012)

gavintonks said:


> very true managing today takes hours



What do you mean? Sorry my brain has shut off for the day.


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## gavintonks (Sep 21, 2012)

Little Storm Cloud said:


> What do you mean? Sorry my brain has shut off for the day.




I assist a client to manage their facebook page and group and you need to post every single day which is an allocation of time as a resource, so unless a process is automated it requires time to manage. time is equal to money.

So to keep a board running smoothly and people engaged takes hours of your time, mostly unpaid - hope that helps


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## Jess A (Sep 24, 2012)

gavintonks said:


> I assist a client to manage their facebook page and group and you need to post every single day which is an allocation of time as a resource, so unless a process is automated it requires time to manage. time is equal to money.
> 
> So to keep a board running smoothly and people engaged takes hours of your time, mostly unpaid - hope that helps



Ah I get you now. Was lost on the context of your comment.


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