# Deeper POV



## BWFoster78 (May 2, 2013)

When I write in 3rd person, my tendency is to distance myself from the POV character to a much greater extend than I desire.  I'm really struggling at the moment with bringing that POV closer.  Any suggestions/tips in general for this?

I also have a specific question that's related.  I use this phrase currently in _Power of the Mages_:



> His eyes brightened at the challenge of solving a puzzle.



In the scene, Xan is riding a horse and hasn't had a lot of sleep.  He's been nodding off and needs to wake up.  Contextually, "his eyes brightened" is being used to mean that his mind cleared from the fog of extreme fatigue.  One of my beta readers had this comment:



> Again, this is a distancing observation.  Describe what Xan feels.



How would you better describe this to get a tighter POV?

Thanks in advance for your assistance.


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## Jeff Xilon (May 2, 2013)

Quick shot at it, perhaps too wordy for your taste/needs:

The world that had started to blur and swim before Xan's eyes came back into focus and he could feel the corners of his mouth twitching into a slight smile as the thought of a challenging puzzle pushed the fatigue to the back of his mind.


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## Xaysai (May 2, 2013)

Brian,

Not sure I'm going to be much help, but I'll throw a few fragments/thoughts out and maybe something will spark an idea for you.

The challenge of a new puzzle reinvigorated him.
The challenge of a new puzzle broke the spell his (long days on the road) or (fatigue) or (exhaustion) or (weariness) held over him.

When I get really excited at the thought of something, I get that electric feeling which starts in my chest and shoots through my body, my heartbeat increases, I might even sweat a little, I become alert, and it doesn't even really matter how tired I was to begin with.

I wonder if any of these (or other) descriptions might help better describe his transition from exhausted and weary state to his new and excited state?

Also, during my time in the military I deployed to the desert for a long period of time and can tell you that when you are forced to travel for extended periods, especially away from home or comfort or anything familiar, you look for anything that can take your mind off how uncomfortable, lonely, and miserable you are. Depending on how long your MC has been traveling and how much he enjoys solving a puzzle, the thought of a new puzzle would give him hope, and give him something to get him through his struggles mentally.


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## BWFoster78 (May 2, 2013)

Dan and Jeff,

While I appreciate the help, I'm more looking for an understanding of how to get deeper inside the POV than how to better describe this specific scenario.

For your suggestions, why do you think what you wrote is tighter from a POV perspective than what I wrote?  That's the question I really need answered.

Thanks!

Brian


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## Ankari (May 2, 2013)

Hello Brian,



> His eyes brightened at the challenge of solving a puzzle.



This is pure third person. The audience is _seeing_ the effects of Xan's reaction to solving a puzzle.

Third person-limited is, as you say, a tighter POV from Xan's senses.  Xan wouldn't see his eyes brighten at the challenge, he would feel a spark of energy that dispels the fatigue, he would perk up at the chellenge (body straightens, his brows collapsing in concentration), he may even bit his lip as he mulls the puzzle.

When I try to describe reactions/senses of a character, I imagine myself in the character's place and try to describe what I would feel.


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## Devor (May 2, 2013)

_His eyes brightened at the challenge of solving a puzzle._

Let's look at three ways to deepen the POV in this sentence, and you can extrapolate from there.

1 - Give us his thoughts and feelings.
2 - Have the character tie it back to what's going on (a mini-sequel in the scene/sequel formula).
3 - Have the character characterize what you're focused on and give it tone/voice.

_His eyes brightened at the challenge of solving a puzzle.  Finally, something to get his mind off the squabbling of the adventuring party since their last encounter with archvillain Bobberick.  It didn't look like much of a challenge at first, but were those runes actually east wendigian?  That would make them easy to misread.  He would need to be careful, or at least, he could tell that to his adventuring party when asking them to stop bickering about who was to blame for Bobberick's victory._

Strange example, but it should be enough to think about.




Ankari said:


> This is pure third person. The audience is _seeing_ the effects of Xan's reaction to solving a puzzle.



You can't feel your eyes brighten?  Honestly, you'll miss the important stuff worrying about the technicalities of each sentence.  Leave it for your editor and focus on things that take more skill.


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## Ankari (May 2, 2013)

Devor said:


> You can't feel your eyes brighten?  Honestly, you'll miss the important stuff worrying about the technicalities of each sentence.  Leave it for your editor and focus on things that take more skill.



You can feel your eyes sharpen, widen, narrow, squint, tear, blink, close, open, flutter, and strain.

Brighten is something seen, not felt.


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## Steerpike (May 2, 2013)

Yeah, I agree that describing only those things the POV character can see or perceive in some way brings you in tighter than when you are describing things from a viewpoint outside the character.

You can establish a strong connection to the character either way, but putting yourself in their character's shoes and describing things only as they perceive them is by definition a tighter POV than writing that pulls you out of the character.


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## BWFoster78 (May 2, 2013)

> Xan wouldn't see his eyes brighten



I'm interpreting your comment here as: this is a break from correct POV because he doesn't see his own eyes brightening.

When I read, or, actually, write, "his eyes brighten," I'm not picturing an external viewpoint of someone actually somehow seeing the light level behind his eyes increase.  It's an expression that indicates that the world through his eyes seems brighter.

Is this not clear?  I would never have thought the expression would have been interpreted in another manner.



> When I try to describe reactions/senses of a character, I imagine myself in the character's place and try to describe what I would feel.



Let's take a situation where I'm driving and really tired.  I stop by the store and grab some Dew.  My eyes brighten.  I literally see the world as brighter than it was prior to the caffeine.

It seems like I have one of two problems here:

1. I'm not getting across clearly what I'm trying to convey with "his eyes brightened."
2. The physical description of him seeing clearer isn't an adequate enough representation of his feelings to get the POV closeness I desire.


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## BWFoster78 (May 2, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Yeah, I agree that describing only those things the POV character can see or perceive in some way brings you in tighter than when you are describing things from a viewpoint outside the character.
> 
> You can establish a strong connection to the character either way, but putting yourself in their character's shoes and describing things only as they perceive them is by definition a tighter POV than writing that pulls you out of the character.



I agree that this is one method, and I feel I do try to keep POV tight in this way.  If I screw up and mistakenly miss something like this (for example, I'm editing a scene now where I switched POV from an earlier version and left a line in that referred to the old POV character), it's easy to fix.

However, it seems like more is required, that I'm creating an artificial distance between the characters in some other fashion.  The problem is that I don't quite understand exactly what I'm doing wrong and thus can't fix it.

Any general tips?


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## Steerpike (May 2, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Is this not clear?  I would never have thought the expression would have been interpreted in another manner.



Actually, I read it exactly the same way as Ankari. I took it as an external description of what his eyes looked like. If instead it is just his vision clearing, or his own perceptions becoming more illuminated somehow, I think you can write that more clearly. I think the interpretation that goes along with what you meant to say is a reasonable one, but so is the one Ankari and I had (and probably the more common one), so if you want to avoid ambiguity you can change it.

As for problem #2, the easiest solution is to describe what he is actually feeling. I don't think it is very easy at all to bring a reader in close to a character without ever telling the reader what they are feeling. Just describing physical reactions and hoping the reader will associate the right emotional response with it can work in some instances, but that in and of itself is going to maintain a wall between the reader and the character.

EDIT: In answer to your last question, and I realize in advance you might not agree, but I think it is in part an overly rigid application of "show don't tell," which actually causes a lot of problems in writing. The problem is two-fold: 1) not every reader is going to read the passage the same (as evidenced here); and 2) not every reader is going to associate the same emotions with the same physical descriptions, so it risks misfiring. If you're trying to bridge an emotional gap between the character and reader, there are times when it is best to maintain it by being very clear and basically "telling" the reader what is going on. 

"Show don't tell" automatically maintains an artificial distance between the reader and character. The character knows what he's feeling, but if the author won't let the character tell us, then we're not in his head.


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## Devor (May 2, 2013)

Ankari said:


> You can feel your eyes sharpen, widen, narrow, squint, tear, blink, close, open, flutter, and strain.
> 
> Brighten is something seen, not felt.



I don't really disagree, Ankari, but you've still got to focus on the more important things first.  In business class, they used to talk a lot about people who care more about business cards than about the clients, for instance, and I really feel that this is the writing equivalent.  Business cards are wonderful, but worrying about them can become an excuse for not worrying about the things that are really important.  Or it's like a dieter worried about fiber and cholesterol but not about calories (twinky diet, anyone?). 

Focus on your storytelling and on your readers' experience, and you can't go wrong.  It's far more important to make sure your character comes across compellingly than that he comes across tightly - if it really concerns you, you can tighten the POV in a final pass.  But you're worried about too much worrying about that when the problem isn't what's there but what's missing.  Get into your character's head.


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## BWFoster78 (May 2, 2013)

> 1 - Give us his thoughts and feelings.
> 2 - Have the character tie it back to what's going on (a mini-sequel in the scene/sequel formula).
> 3 - Have the character characterize what you're focused on and give it tone/voice.



These are good tips.

1. I'm working on including more thoughts and feelings, but I struggle sometimes with the worry that, when I'm not using direct internal monologue, I'm telling too much.

2. I like this idea.  I don't do this enough.

3. I struggle with this.  I know I need to do more emotional filtering, but I'm still working on incorporating it in fact rather than in theory.

Thanks!

Brian


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## BWFoster78 (May 2, 2013)

> Actually, I read it exactly the same way as Ankari. I took it as an external description of what his eyes looked like. If instead it is just his vision clearing, or his own perceptions becoming more illuminated somehow, I think you can write that more clearly. I think the interpretation that goes along with what you meant to say is a reasonable one, but so is the one Ankari and I had (and probably the more common one), so if you want to avoid ambiguity you can change it.



That's why it is good to have beta readers.  Even after getting the comment, I didn't see how it could have been interpreted differently.

I'll rephrase.



> As for problem #2, the easiest solution is to describe what he is actually feeling. I don't think it is very easy at all to bring a reader in close to a character without ever telling the reader what they are feeling. Just describing physical reactions and hoping the reader will associate the right emotional response with it can work in some instances, but that in and of itself is going to maintain a wall between the reader and the character.



I tend to agree with you here.  I would, however, love to hear a refutation by one of the Always Show contingent just for balance.

EDIT: Your edited point about artificial closeness is a good one.  I'm not quite the adherent to showing always being better as I used to be.


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## Steerpike (May 2, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> 1. I'm working on including more thoughts and feelings, but I struggle sometimes with the worry that, when I'm not using direct internal monologue, I'm telling too much.



Ha. Kind of ninja'ed my last comment. But I'd give it a try. I don't think you're telling enough, and that's maintaining an artificial distance.


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## BWFoster78 (May 2, 2013)

> Focus on your storytelling and on your readers' experience, and you can't go wrong. It's far more important to make sure your character comes across compellingly than that he comes across tightly - if it really concerns you, you can tighten the POV in a final pass. But you're worried about too much worrying about that when the problem isn't what's there but what's missing. Get into your character's head.



The question at hand, though, is how to get a tighter POV.

I try to identify deficiencies in my writing and work hard to improve them.  I think that, right now, the biggest factor preventing me from writing the way I want is lack of skill at getting far enough inside my character's head.

As such, his complaint is a valid one.  In my view, a tighter POV gets you further inside the head of the character and, therefore, will give the reader a better experience.


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## Steerpike (May 2, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> The question at hand, though, is how to get a tighter POV.



I think it helps to give the character a voice. Tell us some of what is going on, but use the character to do it. Just to make up an example off the top of my head, suppose a girl's mom has just done something embarrassing:

1. Kayla's face warmed. She looked down, tugged at a hangnail on her thumb, then dropped her hands and put them behind her back.

2. Kayla's face warmed. God, her mom was so embarrassing. She looked down, tugged at a hangnail on her thumb. She hated how being embarrassed always made her fidget. Like she didn't have enough attention on her already, thanks to her mom. She dropped her hands and put them behind her back.

So, I think with both of these, you get the idea that Kayla is embarrassed and also uncomfortable. With #2 you're in closer to Kayla, and over the course of an entire story you are much more likely to connect with her, because she has a voice. It's not just a dispassionate "showing" of what is going on in the scene. It is a combination of showing and the character telling you want is going on inside.


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## BWFoster78 (May 2, 2013)

> 2. Kayla's face warmed. God, her mom was so embarrassing. She looked down, tugged at a hangnail on her thumb. She hated how being embarrassed always made her fidget. Like she didn't have enough attention on her already, thanks to her mom. She dropped her hands and put them behind her back.



Awesome.  Now, if I can just figure out how to incorporate this in my writing...


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## BWFoster78 (May 2, 2013)

Steerpike (Note, though I'm specifically directing this to Steerpike, I welcome all opinions),

Here's an attempt to get a deeper POV.  Let me know what you think:

Lainey's POV 3rd draft:



> After a moment of intense concentration, Xan started.  “Interesting.”
> “What?”
> “I’m not sure.  This is my first time doing this, and I barely know the theory, much less the practice.  Be patient.”  He snatched a pebble from the ground.  “I’m going to throw this.  Focus on its movement.”



Becomes:



> After a moment of intense concentration, Xan started.  “Interesting.”
> “What?”
> With the hand not holding hers, he snatched a pebble from the ground.  “Focus on the movement when I throw this.”
> She wanted to throttle him for not answering her.  He always did that, got so focused on the problem that he ignored everything else.  Since he was doing what she wanted, she decided to ignore it.



Am I moving in the right direction?


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## Penpilot (May 2, 2013)

Usually how I get in close is I put my mind in a first person mind set. I take the stance that I'm writing first person only using different pronouns. But the drawback is this can get me into a little trouble when I get a little too close and inadvertently start writing in present tense when action starts getting hot and heavy. 



> After a moment of intense concentration, Xan started. “Interesting.”
> “What?”
> With the hand not holding hers, he snatched a pebble from the ground. “Focus on the movement when I throw this.”
> She wanted to throttle him for not answering her. He always did that, got so focused on the problem that he ignored everything else. Since he was doing what she wanted, she decided to ignore it.



I think you're moving in the right direction, but there are IMHO a few distancing elements still there.

Here's a few tweaks you could try.

With his free hand, he snatched a mud-caked pebble from the ground and held it up to her face. --> Adding the bit with the mud on the pebble and holding it up, engages her senses and connects her to the pebble. Other senses could be used here if he did something else like touched her skin with it.

"Focus on the movement." --> Removing the "when I throw" makes the reader focus on the pebble in anticipation just like she would be. "when I throw" also telegraphs something that happens later when it doesn't need to be telegraphed. 

She wanted to throttle him for not answering (her). -> The "her" on the tail end of this sentence adds distance. Remove it and it's closer.

Since he was doing what she wanted, she (decided to) ignored it. --> removing "decided to" brings things closer because now it's more of her thought.


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## ThinkerX (May 2, 2013)

> Is this not clear? I would never have thought the expression would have been interpreted in another manner.



For what its worth, I also took 'his eyes brightened' as pure 3rd person.

Now, if you'd gone with something along the lines of 'it seemed so clear all of a sudden', it would have been different.

Best way to get into deeper POV is to go 1st person:

'Brocoli feels so slimy.  I want to vomit just thinking about it.'


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## Impatience (May 2, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I'm interpreting your comment here as: this is a break from correct POV because he doesn't see his own eyes brightening.
> 
> When I read, or, actually, write, "his eyes brighten," I'm not picturing an external viewpoint of someone actually somehow seeing the light level behind his eyes increase.  It's an expression that indicates that the world through his eyes seems brighter.



Someone may have already stated this, I haven't made it through ALL the pages of responses yet, but perhaps you mean his vision brightened, not necessarily his eyes.  Eyes are going to be taken as a physical attribute, so when they brighten people will think you mean his actual eyes got brighter, instead of his vision which is something he experiences, not a physical part of himself.

Hope that made sense


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## Ireth (May 2, 2013)

Impatience said:


> Someone may have already stated this, I haven't made it through ALL the pages of responses yet, but perhaps you mean his vision brightened, not necessarily his eyes.  Eyes are going to be taken as a physical attribute, so when they brighten people will think you mean his actual eyes got brighter, instead of his vision which is something he experiences, not a physical part of himself.
> 
> Hope that made sense



I dunno, I think it can go either way. When *(spoilers for LOTR!)* Theoden lies dying on the Pelennor fields, he says to Eowyn, "My eyes darken." This is usually taken to mean that his vision is darkening as he dies, not that his actual eyes are getting darker.


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## Jeff Xilon (May 3, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Dan and Jeff,
> 
> While I appreciate the help, I'm more looking for an understanding of how to get deeper inside the POV than how to better describe this specific scenario.
> 
> ...



Ok, whoops. Sorry about that. Let me see if I can't add something more constructive. I'm going to lay out my thoughts step by step here to try and avoid another misunderstanding. Having read through the large conversation that grew after I think I understand that:

1) I too interpreted your original sentence as an external description of what Xan looked like.
2) In my attempt to write an example of something deeper I took your ideas that his eyes were less dull/clouded/fatigued looking and his enjoyment of puzzles and wrote my version from "inside Xan's skull".

These ideas seem to have been well covered though. It also seems to me that:

3) I don't think there's anything wrong with your original POV, unless it was suddenly more distant that the rest of your writing, but
4) YOU want to write tighter POV, and don't feel like you're really getting there. 

Ok, so you want to write tighter and are having trouble with it. I'd like to suggest an experiment that might be totally crazy and not help in anyway, but then again maybe it will. So:

What about taking a scene where you feel you haven't written tight enough POV (or just any scene you want to think about more) and write a new version of it in the tightest of POVs - first person. Now, I'm not saying change your story to first person, this is just a writing exercise/thought experiment. My theory here is that by writing the scene from the POV characters 1st person POV you pretty much will have to be writing tight and limited. Once you've done that you can compare your original scene to the new version. What did you leave in? What did you add? What did you have to take out? Taking your first person scene and using it as a guide for rewriting your third person scene might help you get that tightness you've wanted.

Anyway, that's just my whacky idea.


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## advait98 (May 3, 2013)

So do you generally write in first person, Brian?

Anyway, I agree with all that has been said before. Writing in a close third person is a lot like writing in first person (correct me if I'm wrong), and perhaps writing with that mindset could help things, like Penpilot said.

 You're in that person's mind. You see everything with his eyes, hear everything with his ears, bla bla bla. Doubtless you already have this in mind, but it doesn't hurt to restate. 

In ASOIAF, I noticed a lot of times that GRRM made the character's thoughts part of the narration. Everything was filtered through that POV incredibly. Every observation had a part of the character attached to it. 

In your thing, maybe you could try something like that- 'She wanted to throttle him for not answering her. It's like I'm not there.' or something like that.

In the end, it always comes down to the most inordinately said and repeated advice. Read and incorporate. Oh well...


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## BWFoster78 (May 3, 2013)

I've had a pretty major breakthrough, thanks mainly to Ankari, Steerpike, and Devor.

I'm not sure they told me anything I didn't already know, but something just clicked yesterday while writing.  Steerpike had told me that I was creating an artificial distance between the reader and the character.  I think that the actual problem was that there was too much distance between myself and the character.

Yesterday, I was able to really enter the character's head and produce the kind of material that I wanted.  Not to say that it was perfect - it'll need polishing - but the impact of getting closer to the character is definitely there.  If I can just continue in this vein for the entire rewrite, I think it's going to be pretty good.

Thank you all Mythic Scribes for your incredible help!  If I ever am a successful writer, I'll owe a great debt to this board.

To all those out there who are struggling and discouraged, remember that you never know when your next huge advance in ability will come.  It may be just around the corner, and, believe me, it feels pretty awesome when it happens.


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