# A world where angels and demons have more human traits than what you think...



## R.H. Smith (Nov 11, 2016)

Hey all,

My world is not necessarily a magic one, but I would like ideas and input into fleshing it out a bit more. It is a world where angels and demons have human characteristics, except for free will. That is only reserved for humans. What type of world would heaven be, and what type would hell be. I really want something different, not the same old heaven that's sooooo perfect and hell is sooooo bad (well, hell is bad, but not in a huge lake of fire type of way). It's a hierarchical structure, God on top, then his generels, lieutenants, so on, though it is mainly a dictatorship as God is the end all be all. The politicking is left up to the angels, though they cannot disobey God as they have no free will. Hell on the other hand is all out political war and subterfuge. Demons are always vying for power, though they are so scared of the boss that they rarely ever try anything.


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## TheCatholicCrow (Nov 12, 2016)

Sounds interesting ... have you by chance been watching/reading *Lucifer *? I feel like there are a number of comic books that play off the "not the heaven/hell you know" kind of thing so if you're looking for inspiration that might be a good place to start. The late 1990's and early 2000's marked a rise in Eschatology [End Times] & supernatural film/fiction so you might draw inspiration from something like Buffy/Angel to City of Angels (Meg Ryan & Nicholas Cage) to Charmed to Hellblazer to Hellboy (& BPRD). Lots to draw from if you're looking to flesh out your Cosmology. 

Is there an ancient/holy language? Is there a supreme religion? Is the whole story told on these cosmological plains or is it on Earth with the angelic realms operating separately? 

Might want to look into Dualism. One of the ancient religions (Zoroastrianism I think) has a similar concept. Could be useful to look there & see what else pops up.

What's your story about? Who are your characters? Now that you have a rough idea of your world, it might be easier to shift focus towards the story then come back and fill in more details as needed.


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## KBA (Nov 13, 2016)

I second The Catholic Crow's ideas regarding inspiration, especially City of Angels. Also, many antichrist theories suggest that demons will appear as normal humans (not sure about angels). In Bless the Child with Kim Basinger, a human child with heavenly powers battles humans with denomic powers. While non-human angelic entities appear also, there are occasional "sudden" appearances of regular looking humans who help and then disappear, seeming as though they are angelic humans who can't change the nature of the world, but can assist those with higher aspirations.


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## WooHooMan (Nov 13, 2016)

I'm pretty sure I've seen both of these before.  Maybe several times.
The "God's dictatorship" thing goes back to Gnosticism.

An idea I've had (but never went with) is to make Heaven like Brave New World where everyone is happy and "equal" but only because they are kept in ignorance.  Meanwhile, Hell is exactly the same except everyone knows it's a sham that they are forced to play along with it and everyone thinks that everyone else is unaware.
Basically, the only difference between Heaven and Hell is perspective.  In both cases, no one can exercise their wills.

I've also thought about doing a "solitary" Heaven and a "social" Hell.  You could probably get some mileage out of that idea.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Nov 14, 2016)

R.H. Smith said:


> Hey all,
> 
> My world is not necessarily a magic one, but I would like ideas and input into fleshing it out a bit more. It is a world where angels and demons have human characteristics, except for free will. That is only reserved for humans. What type of world would heaven be, and what type would hell be. I really want something different, not the same old heaven that's sooooo perfect and hell is sooooo bad (well, hell is bad, but not in a huge lake of fire type of way). It's a hierarchical structure, God on top, then his generels, lieutenants, so on, though it is mainly a dictatorship as God is the end all be all. The politicking is left up to the angels, though they cannot disobey God as they have no free will. Hell on the other hand is all out political war and subterfuge. Demons are always vying for power, though they are so scared of the boss that they rarely ever try anything.



If the angels have NO free will, then they can't do any little thing without being ordered to do so by the big guy, even to take a step forward or lift a hand or make a greeting to someone. They'd basically be statues except when the big guy gives them a direct order, which they'd carry out and then abruptly come to a stop again.

If the big guy told the angels to do something generic, like "socialize," and they are allowed to operate as they see fit within the confines of that generalization, then they are experiencing a form of free will. If they truly have NO free will, they are basically golems, not angels.


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## TheCatholicCrow (Nov 14, 2016)

Michael K. Eidson said:


> If the angels have NO free will, then they can't do any little thing without being ordered to do so by the big guy, even to take a step forward or lift a hand or make a greeting to someone. They'd basically be statues except when the big guy gives them a direct order, which they'd carry out and then abruptly come to a stop again.
> 
> If the big guy told the angels to do something generic, like "socialize," and they are allowed to operate as they see fit within the confines of that generalization, then they are experiencing a form of free will. If they truly have NO free will, they are basically golems, not angels.



Good point - without a small degree of free will you start getting into predestination/fatalism which would make it God vs the demons ... but then how did they become demons? You can't have The Fall without the angelic powers choosing a side which means God would have had to create good and evil (the latter just for the hell of it).

Something that must be considered is whether God (or the fictional equivalent) is supreme over all other beings or whether (He) is an equal opponent of Satan (Hades or whoever). 

There must be some sort of explanation for why they're pitted against each other and (IMO) there should be a clear explanation of the limits (if any) each side has.


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## TheCatholicCrow (Nov 14, 2016)

WooHooMan said:


> I'm pretty sure I've seen both of these before.  Maybe several times.
> The "God's dictatorship" thing goes back to Gnosticism.



I was going to say Aryanism but you're totally right. I must be getting rusty LOL.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 14, 2016)

Yeah, this concept is very popular and has been for some time. Constantine with Keanu Reeves is another one my husband loves. 

I played with this idea a number of years ago, I'll share about how far I got lol. 

So in my version, God started out alone. He created the angels to keep himself occupied. Then the heavens and the Earth and then humanity. All of his creatures were sort of like pet dogs. In the same way, people adopt or purchase a puppy to love and be loved God created the angels and humans. But the angels and the humans were very obedient like a loving dog and didn't have too much knowledge or free will. They were innocent. 

Finally, God got sort of bored of playing fetch all the time and wished he had someone to really talk to. Someone to share all his creation with on an equal field. Someone  he could really debate with and have discussions with about higher level God stuff. 

So he picked one of his angels (Lucifer) and shared with him all his knowledge. All his higher understanding so that he could have an equal to share in his lonely existence. 

Lucifer was a bit like a teenager. Pretty pumped to finally see the world for what it really was and feel like a big boy. He and God had some great times and great discussions and finally one day Lucifer said: 

"God, I'd like to go out and explore your universe and everything in it." And God was all "Yeah, go, enjoy! Tell me what you think of everything!" 

So off Lucifer went and ended up at Earth eventually and met this beautiful woman. Now, the woman was totally innocent. She was like a two-year-old in a woman's body. She relied on God for everything the same way a child relies on her father and she was kept totally safe from any harm. So when Lucifer arrived on Earth the woman didn't even understand the concept of fear or danger. She had been kept in an ivory tower for her entire life only knowing goodness and love. 

Lucifer fell in love with her and it was the first time he ever felt love for someone other than God. But then, like all mortals, the woman died. 

And Lucifer felt something else new. Grief. And fear, and anger, and resentment. 

He went back to God and asked him why he gave him all this knowledge and understanding and ability to love? All it does is create fear and pain and anger. 

He demands that God takes the higher awareness back and turn him back into a regular old angel. 

God refuses. 

Lucifer tells him that he wants God to feel the same way he made him feel, so he is going to destroy all of the humanity. 

So, this is where things get twisted. 

God knows he has to save humanity, but how? He knows he can't keep them safe from Lucifer in Eden because they have shown him that when they are kept totally innocent they can't tell right from wrong because they have never experienced 'wrong'. 

He realizes the only way to save humans from pain and fear and anger is to allow them to feel pain and fear and anger so that they can recognize it when they see it and hopefully turn away from it instead of walking towards it like a child to a pedophile holding candy. 

He has to banish them from Eden. 

So he sends a Seraphim (which oddly enough in the Bible is referred to as a "serpent" a number of times). 

It wasn't Satan who tempted Eve in the garden, it was God's Seraphim. The Seraphim tempts Eve to eat from the tree and she does it because she doesn't understand consequences. She doesn't understand fear. She doesn't understand what will happen if she does because God has always been good to her. 

When she eats the fruit God understands that keeping them in Eden cannot save them. 

And so he banishes them, in the hopes that when Lucifer comes to destroy them they will be able to recognize Evil when they see it. 

Lucifer sees this as God turning his back on humanity. Allowing them to suffer, and he thinks he can save them by turning them back onto little robotic puppy dogs with no ability to think for themselves. 

That was as far as I got. 

I'm not going to use any of it.... so you are welcome to it if you want.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Nov 15, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> Yeah, this concept is very popular and has been for some time. Constantine with Keanu Reeves is another one my husband loves.
> 
> I played with this idea a number of years ago, I'll share about how far I got lol.
> 
> ...



This is a pretty interesting take on the Genesis story, except i'm not sure where the mortal who Lucifer fell for came from since Eve was supposed to be the first woman...but you could work around that.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Nov 15, 2016)

Characters with no free will aren't going to be interesting. Heck, they're not going to be characters. Just little cardboard cutouts to be pushed around.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 15, 2016)

Dragon, read about Lilith. 

Lilith - Wikipedia


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Nov 15, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> Dragon, read about Lilith.
> 
> Lilith - Wikipedia



Oopses, I'd actually heard of Lilith before. Lol.


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## Futhark (Dec 17, 2016)

I would look at which versions of angels and demons, heaven and hell, that appeal to you and go from there.  L. A. Banks does an interesting version.  I have always liked the idea of nephilim, the children of the sons of God and the daughters of man that, in some stories, God destroyed in the deluge.  I have always thought that these could be some of the first demons, though other demons are described as bodiless entities that have never been men.  My idea about angels is that they act like computer programs, only able to function within their parameters.  This gives them some independence but limited free will.  Lucifer could have a corrupted file or something.  There are many ways to go, the fallen one, the persecuted anti-hero, the true champion of mankind, the jealous, vindictive child that hates humanity.  Hell could be heavily regulated like a prison, or just a huge disorganised city of unwanted souls.  Heaven could be the airport terminal for the resurrection of the spirit, or an eternal bliss of harmonising souls in the heavenly choir.


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## cydare (Dec 17, 2016)

I wanted to throw in a suggestion to read Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman if you haven't already. They've got an interesting (and hilarious) way of discussing angels and demons, and two of the main characters are an angel and demon trying to work together to stop Armageddon.


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## ThinkerX (Dec 17, 2016)

As of late, my novella series has morphed into a head on collision between Gnosticism and the Lovecraftian mythos, with Azathoth/Nyarlathotep taking the role of the demiurge.


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## Miskatonic (Dec 23, 2016)

Will good and evil be represented in a traditional fashion or will you play around with these ideas?

My fantasy stories has angels/demons, at least that's the closest thing you could compare them to, yet the angels are "evil" and the demons "good". It's not a black and white look at evil but the roles are reversed. Also it's polytheistic and not monotheistic.


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## Miskatonic (Dec 23, 2016)

ThinkerX said:


> As of late, my novella series has morphed into a head on collision between Gnosticism and the Lovecraftian mythos, with Azathoth/Nyarlathotep taking the role of the demiurge.



In my story, in the dimension where all the gods reside, kind of like Olympus if Olympus was in a extra-dimensional abyss of sorts, there is a place at the very center that you could call sort of the throne of chaos. But the entity that lurks there is more like the demon Choronzon. He/It is imprisoned there. It's the only being that the gods all fear and keeping that being imprisoned is paramount.


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## Dutch (Dec 23, 2016)

I have been doing a little research into this myself. A couple of areas that seem to stick out but do not get much coverage include the darkness ( that God had to push back in order to create ) and the Djinn, who are said to have been created alongside Angels and humans. A couple of interesting aspects I have been toying with.


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## Ixidor (Dec 23, 2016)

Michael K. Eidson said:


> If the angels have NO free will, then they can't do any little thing without being ordered to do so by the big guy, even to take a step forward or lift a hand or make a greeting to someone. They'd basically be statues except when the big guy gives them a direct order, which they'd carry out and then abruptly come to a stop again.
> 
> If the big guy told the angels to do something generic, like "socialize," and they are allowed to operate as they see fit within the confines of that generalization, then they are experiencing a form of free will. If they truly have NO free will, they are basically golems, not angels.



That's certainly one way to look at it, but it's not necessarily the only way. The philosophical concept of Predetermination is the concept that all events past, present, and future have already been decided or are already known. This goes for everything from the big bang down to what you decide to put on your sandwich at subway. So instead of doing nothing, your life would actually look just like it does now, a bit like the 2011 movie The Adjustment Bureau. You'd get up every morning and brush your teeth (or not) according to God's plan, whenever you were presented with a problem you'd think all the thoughts God wanted you to thing, you'd then make the choice that God wanted you to make. All the consequences that would come from that decision would be according to God's plan, and so on and so forth.

This of course makes faith a bit of a strange thing, as your ability to get into heaven becomes less about your thoughts and actions and entirely revolves around God's plan for you. Which of course makes the concept of Hell as a punishment completely unjust as people have no choice in the matter. If God makes a man a serial killer he has no ability to choose otherwise, thus condemning him for something he cannot change enters into the same realm as condemning a man for his skin color.

The response to this is the concept of Limited Free Will, which basically states that at certain points you have free will, as long as you don't venture beyond the limits God provides you with. So lets say you are starving and are faced with the task of finding food: You could rob someone at knife point and take their belongings, you could dumpster dive for food, or you could go to the local soup kitchen. However, if God does not give you the available path of cannibalism, you cannot eat another human being. If you ever watched the show Big Brother, imagine it as if you were a contestant on the show. You could eat whatever you want, get fat, or get ripped. You can pick whatever clothes you wanted to wear. You could hate anyone, or love anyone you wanted, etc. But, so long as God doesn't allow you, you cannot wish to leave the Big Brother house. Now all of a sudden instead of having no choice in the matter of being a serial killer, you can seek help and avoid murdering anyone. This in turn makes faith meaningful and heaven/hell are no longer arbitrary sentences.


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## Devor (Dec 23, 2016)

Ixidor said:


> That's certainly one way to look at it, but it's not necessarily the only way.



Typically, Christians understand angels as having free will.  What they lack is the ability to change.  Their ultimate choices would have been made upon the moment they were created, based on knowledge instead of, for humans, experience.  That is a lot different from _lacking_ free will, which, as Michael K. Eidson points out, essentially reduces them to golems or robots.


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