# Why Diversity in Our Writing is So Important - "The Danger of a Single Story"



## A. E. Lowan (Oct 19, 2014)

A while back we had a discussion thread going where we discussed diversity in our work and why it's important.

http://mythicscribes.com/forums/writing-questions/10373-what-im-saying-search-equality-pretty-messy.html?highlight=diversity

Repeatedly the question was raised - "Why?"  And we tried to answer, and I think in many ways we did a decent job, but there is a writer, Chimamanda Adichie, who did a Ted Talks where she gets to the heart of this issue, and eloquently illustrates why representation is so important.






And for those of us who, like me, sometimes have a hard time focusing on what we hear, here is the transcript - https://www.ted.com/talks/chimamanda_adichie_the_danger_of_a_single_story/transcript?language=en


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## Mythopoet (Oct 19, 2014)

Here's the thing, talking about more diversity in books is all but pointless. 

The problem is not a lack of writers who want to write about all kinds of people and experiences. The problem is that publishers choose what gets published and bookstores choose what gets stocked and for the most part all they are about is what they think they can make the most money on and what they think they can make the most money on isn't diversity. No amount of stirring speeches will change the fact that they really only care about the money. And good luck convincing them that more diversity will lead to more book sales, Amazon with all their sales figures can't even convince them that lowering their ebook prices to 9.99 for most books will lead to higher profits. 

The only thing that is going to change things is authors no longer needing to write what they are told to write just to make a living, authors not needing to kowtow to publishers over every book, authors not having to just sick back and take it while their books are given over into the control of a large corporation who only cares about the bottom line. 

Self publishing, allowing author control, allowing authors to go more directly to readers, is what is going to change things. The change will happen naturally, with time. There's no point trying to guilt authors into writing more diverse books. Authors should only be expected to write the books they want to write and are passionate about and want to find an audience for. If they are actually allowed to do that, then there will be plenty of authors writing about all sorts of experiences.


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## A. E. Lowan (Oct 19, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> *Here's the thing, talking about more diversity in books is all but pointless. *
> 
> Self publishing, allowing author control, allowing authors to go more directly to readers, is what is going to change things. *The change will happen naturally, with time.* *There's no point trying to guilt authors into writing more diverse books.* Authors should only be expected to write the books they want to write and are passionate about and want to find an audience for. If they are actually allowed to do that, then there will be plenty of authors writing about all sorts of experiences.



So, I'm trying to suss out what you're trying to say, Mytho.  In the midst of randomly attacking traditional publishing (not entirely sure why you chose this thread for that, but okay...) what I've bolded seems to be the take-away, and also, not surprisingly, phrases we hear repeated over and over again in the conversation about representation.  "It needs to happen naturally."  "Don't guilt trip me into this!"

Two thoughts.

One, no, change doesn't happen "naturally" because that idea implies no effort, no growth.  Just go with the flow.  The path of least resistance leads us to right where we are, where we have been, and nothing changes.  It's a very conservative, lazy, easy, path.  Do you think this is how change happens?

Second, interesting that "guilt" gets brought up so much.  What to think about that?

So, if self-publishing is the answer, because apparently traditional publishing is such a lost cause as to not even be considered, then why the "don't push me, I don't wanna, and you can't make me" tone?


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## Jabrosky (Oct 19, 2014)

A. E. Lowan said:


> So, I'm trying to suss out what you're trying to say, Mytho.  In the midst of randomly attacking traditional publishing (not entirely sure why you chose this thread for that, but okay...)


I believe what Mytho was trying to say was that the demands of traditional publishing are more to blame for the diversity problem in spec. fiction than the writers. In my opinion she has raised a valid point. For all we know, there could be millions of writers out there working outside the standard mold, but traditional publishers don't green-light their material out of the belief that diverse fiction doesn't sell as well.


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## Feo Takahari (Oct 19, 2014)

Not to co-opt your topic, but the beginning of that talk reminds me a lot of things I've tried to express on Mythic Scribes. I just don't have an ethnic backing to it. If I want to say "I don't feel like the stories I've read about little white kids reflect my experiences growing up," I can't add "because I wasn't a little white kid," because that would be misleading.

When I try to express how alien a lot of conventional stories feel to my personal experiences, responses on Mythic Scribes tend to boil down to "What on Earth are you talking about?" I guess what I'm asking is, do I need to have a minority backing to make this kind of statement "valid"? If I want to say "I don't identify with the little white kids in stories," do I have to add something like "because my mother raised me in Mexican-American culture," or can I get away with just saying "because they don't feel like me"?


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## Jabrosky (Oct 20, 2014)

Ironically, I have seen social justice bloggers espouse sentiments about diversity that seemed the polar opposite of what posters like saellys (remember her?) would advocate. Back in my tumblr days, I had a brief conversation with a blogger who said she didn't trust white authors writing non-European characters at all. Her rationale was that white writers would be bound to get these characters wrong or misrepresent their culture. That ties into one reason I've come to mistrust social justice bloggers: they all seem to believe that their particular views are the conclusive authority on morality which everyone ought to respect, yet they seldom see eye-to-eye on what is and isn't acceptable. They're like competing sects of religious fundamentalists.

That said, I don't think my correspondent's argument was _completely _invalid. In theory so-called people of color should not be any harder to write than white people, but on the other hand, writing characters outside your own cultural background can be difficult if you don't have firsthand experience with their cultures. This isn't such an issue in standard other-world fantasy where you make up the cultures yourself, or in historical fiction dealing with cultures that have long since passed away or evolved. However, if I were to write, say, urban Maasai teenagers in 21st century Kenya, I'd be rightly bombarded with criticism for an inauthentic portrayal of a culture that is still around to correct me.


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## Philip Overby (Oct 20, 2014)

I'd like to give one example of someone who wrote a diverse book on _multiple_ scales: Kameron Hurley. If you don't know her or haven't heard of her latest book _The Mirror Empire_, it's what I think future fantasy and SF might look like if everyone decides to write more diverse fiction. She writes for Angry Robot books, a traditional publisher, but a daring one that takes risks on radically different approaches to the genre. She does a lot with race and gender in her books, subverting traditional ideas and doing loads of world-building in the process. It's fascinating to read from the stand-point of a straight, white male. Everything is completely foreign to me, but in a good way. It's also Angry Robot's fastest selling book to date. So there's that.  

I think one thing I've tried to find in fantasy is difference. I don't read fantasy to read about people like me. Not typically anyway. I want to read about weird places, fantastical creatures, forbidden magic, and characters bursting with personality. My normal life doesn't involve these things, so I'm attracted to stories that utilize them.

While I'm an advocate of more diversity in books, I can only really do my part and encourage other people to do the same. I fear that the call for diversity just makes people shoehorn ideas into their novels to appease a certain group. I'm not sure that's the right approach. The only way to truly get diversity into SFF is to write good books that include these ideas. If they sell, then we'll get more of this. If they don't sell, then we'll be looking at the same old, same old. Not that the same old is necessarily bad (I still love medieval fantasy no matter what), but I think fantasy has a lot more growth to experience as a genre. I'm excited to see where it goes.


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## Mythopoet (Oct 20, 2014)

I'm going to try this again later when I'm more rational.


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## Devor (Oct 20, 2014)

I haven't had a chance to watch the video.  I'm taking a note and will make an effort to watch it later.

I've talked about this before, but I'll try to boil it down.  If you're talking to an individual, the attitude you should speak towards is this one:

_Don't tell me what to write; tell me how to make the story I'm writing better._

That is, everyone here has a story in mind that they already want to write, and it's normal to come to a discussion like this from a fan perspective, "I want to see more diverse characters!"  But this isn't a fan site.  This is a site for writers.  This is a site you go to in order to improve your stories.

So I have story X, what are some tips I can use to make it more diverse, and do so without over-extending the boundaries of my story or my own ability to identify with these characters?

It's a difficult question to answer.  But it's the one that needs to be answered in order to make real progress.


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## Steerpike (Oct 20, 2014)

I don't buy the "it won't sell" argument. That argument boils down to baseless assertions and circular reasoning. You end up with some variation of:

A: Publishers don't publish books with diversity because they don't sell.

B: How do you know they don't sell?

A: Because look at what's being published!

When it comes to the landscape of traditional publishing, we have a sample size of n=1. You'd need a mirror publishing regime in place wherein everything else was equal except for diversity v. lack thereof to make any kind of assertion along the lines of the "it doesn't sell" argument, and we don't have that. The reason you'd need such a system is also to isolate variables, because unless you isolate the variable of diversity you can't make a reasonable statement about the success or failure of any given book that includes diversity being either a success or failure because of it.

I also don't buy the argument that talking about it, or raising awareness among authors, publishers, and readers, has no effect. The idea that any kind of change or evolution simply comes about without driving forces doesn't make sense to me. Change and evolution require an impetus, and raising the social consciousness around an issue can certainly have an effect. Getting a little more diversity in fiction can encourage more diverse writers, or writers who just want to include more diversity. It ultimately shifts the norm, and there's no guarantee at all that this would happen without help.

Lastly, writers, artists, and the like who take calls for or discussions about diversity as attacks on their art are completely misunderstanding the issue, in my view. It's an emotional response to the topic rather than a reasoned one.


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## Feo Takahari (Oct 20, 2014)

Devor said:


> _Don't tell me what to write; tell me how to make the story I'm writing better._
> 
> That is, everyone here has a story in mind that they already want to write, and it's normal to come to a discussion like this from a fan perspective, "I want to see more diverse characters!"  But this isn't a fan site.  This is a site for writers.  This is a site you go to in order to improve your stories.



This might be a stupid question, but would you say that this approach is more likely to reduce positive results and less likely to result in arguments? Because I've seen it taken on Mythic Scribes before, and it seems to produce the same number of arguments while still not going anywhere.

*Does a bit of searching*

Actually, you _personally_ have argued with attempts to use this approach, massively misreading what other people said and trying to find an easy way out of complicated problems. To put it bluntly, I'm not sure there's a point in trying to make the argument again.


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## Mythopoet (Oct 20, 2014)

Steerpike said:


> I don't buy the "it won't sell" argument. That argument boils down to baseless assertions and circular reasoning. You end up with some variation of:
> 
> A: Publishers don't publish books with diversity because they don't sell.
> 
> ...



I'm not arguing that it wouldn't sell. I'm arguing that publishers believe it wouldn't sell or at least that they couldn't sell it. This is a real thing. Authors' books are rejected all the time because they publisher doesn't know how to market it or doesn't believe it will sell. This generally takes place when the book in question doesn't fit the prescribed labels of the publisher, aka books that are different. I am arguing that there are almost certainly tons of diverse books that are rejected on these grounds every day. 

What I am trying to say is that these conversations are almost always directed at the wrong people. People look around and think "There should be more diverse books" then they point to authors and say "why aren't you writing more diverse books!" However, I do not believe that writers are the problem. Writers have not had any control over what books are available to read. Publishers have controlled what is published and bookstores control what is places on shelves to buy. So why aren't these conversations ever directed at publishers? Why does no one consider that there might be plenty of author willing and longing to write diverse fiction but who are stopped at every turn by publishers who want more of the same old bestseller fodder? That agents and editors and publishers' sales forces have been telling authors what to write for decades? This is an unfortunate reality. 

I believe there are many, many writers out there who would LOVE to write diverse fiction. That have written diverse fiction that got them nowhere. I've heard countless stories from indie authors about how they pulled out an old manuscript, that all the agents and editors rejected on the grounds that they loved it, but couldn't sell it, to self publish it now that things are changing. This is why I think things are naturally going to change over time now that authors are not all under the thumbs of their publishers. Publishers have been an obstruction to diverse fiction. They want the easy sell. Now that so many authors are finding the freedom of indie publishing and are writing and publishing the books they've always wanted to write things are going to change. It will continue to take time, but it will happen. Many indie authors are already doing it.

I think these conversations are usually pointless because they are almost always directed at writers, as if writers are the problem. But I strongly believe that writers are not the problem, that gatekeepers are. With the demise of the gatekeepers, in a world where it is easy for any author to write what they want and develop an audience for it over time, there WILL be more diversity. Because people are diverse and writers are too. 

If you feel the need to actively change the way things are now, then stop talking to writers. Start shaming publishers. Direct this conversation toward the people who have actually been stopping more diverse fiction from hitting the market. Show them there is a market for it and that they are missing out. It probably wouldn't do anything, because publishers generally only care about the bottom line. But at least it would be directed to the actual problem, instead of the least powerful group of people in the world of publishing.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 20, 2014)

Devor said:


> So I have story X, what are some tips I can use to make it more diverse, and do so without over-extending the boundaries of my story or my own ability to identify with these characters?
> 
> It's a difficult question to answer.  But it's the one that needs to be answered in order to make real progress.



I'm gonna have a go at it, from my angle.

Let's assume something first: let's assume everyone is different. 
Then by including different people in your story, you already have some kind of diversity. Your characters will have different personalities and backgrounds. They will have different wants and needs - they're different to each other. Already, we have a certain amount of diversity here, and then we haven't even gotten to things such as gender or skin color.

Now, let's add gender and skin color and all that jazz. Does that change your characters in any way? Put in a vacuum, it shouldn't.
But, your characters aren't in a vacuum, they're affected by the world around them and the world around your characters do not (at first) know anything about the character's inner characteristic. The world only knows what it sees and it's what it sees that defines how it reacts.
In other words: people are treated differently based on their visual appearance.

I think this is a really central point that might actually be easy to miss when dealing with diversity questions. If I want to include a dark skinned woman in my stories I shouldn't primarily ask myself what the personality of such a person would be. I should ask myself how the world they live in treats that person and how they would react to it.

That's my advice - for now.


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## Steerpike (Oct 20, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> I am arguing that there are almost certainly tons of diverse books that are rejected on these grounds every day.



The question is, where's the evidence for this statement? I'm sure there are cases of this happening, but the idea that every single day books are rejected for being too diverse is an extremely broad, all-encompassing statement. I've never seen any evidence to support it, and I don't believe that it exists, frankly. Not on the kind of scale you're talking about. Not only would you have to look at all of the rejected books, but you'd have to somehow distinguish which ones were rejected solely for the inclusion of diverse elements as opposed to for some other reason. Has any kind of analysis like that ever been done? And if not, how can we make general statements about it with any degree of accuracy? Are there tons of authors out there somewhere with rejection slips that say "Hey, we'd love to publish this, but you've got too many black people in it?" 

I'm suspicious of the extent to which that sort of thing goes on, even unacknowledged. I don't doubt it has happened, but I doubt it is a daily basis for attrition in the slush pile.

I also don't agree with the "wrong audience" argument. Both publishers and writers are the right audience for this discussion, not just one or the other. And, as far as conversation on the topic goes, readers are another appropriate audience.


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## Devor (Oct 20, 2014)

Feo Takahari said:


> Actually, you _personally_ have argued with attempts to use this approach, massively misreading what other people said and trying to find an easy way out of complicated problems. To put it bluntly, I'm not sure there's a point in trying to make the argument again.



You really think my posts in that thread are in opposition to the one above?  I don't even - I don't even understand.

In that thread I was talking about people who raise the issue without addressing the challenges associated with it.  I then went on to suggest that we develop new diversity tropes to lessen those challenges.

In my post above, I suggested that people offer tips for using diversity within a story.  Note again:  Tips.  As in, specific ways to overcome the challenges that I also named within the post:  Over-extending the story to include diversity; failing to identify adequately with diverse characters.

I have been pretty consistent, from the start, in asking for a discussion of specific techniques for incorporating diversity, instead of simply demanding that people do it.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 20, 2014)

Philip Overby said:


> I think one thing I've tried to find in fantasy is difference. I don't read fantasy to read about people like me. Not typically anyway. I want to read about weird places, fantastical creatures, forbidden magic, and characters bursting with personality. My normal life doesn't involve these things, so I'm attracted to stories that utilize them.


This is an interesting perspective when contrasted with one of the most common arguments given in favor of more diverse fiction, namely that minority readers want to see more characters who resemble themselves in some way. That too is a respectable sentiment, but it seems ironic how calls for diversity appeal both to readers seeking the exotic and those who want subject matter they can relate to.

To be sure, those two categories of readers need not be mutually exclusive. A lot of older adventure fiction, by placing white male heroes in exotic locales, did the same thing for their (predominantly, I presume) white male readership. It's a real shame that these stories' portrayal of the non-white characters was seldom respectful, because they had the potential to be much more racially and culturally diverse than modern fantasy.


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## Devor (Oct 20, 2014)

Feo Takahari said:


> This might be a stupid question, but would you say that this approach is more likely to reduce positive results and less likely to result in arguments? Because I've seen it taken on Mythic Scribes before, and it seems to produce the same number of arguments while still not going anywhere.
> 
> *Does a bit of searching*
> 
> Actually, you _personally_ have argued with attempts to use this approach, massively misreading what other people said and trying to find an easy way out of complicated problems. To put it bluntly, I'm not sure there's a point in trying to make the argument again.



You'll have to forgive me for responding to the same post twice, but I feel the need to respond to this beyond my hurried post above.

First, I have to point out the oddity here, of arguing with an approach on the grounds that it only leads to more arguing.  But that aside, arguments aren't a thing to avoid, only a bad attitude within those arguments.

I'm more concerned about the section of my post you chose to highlight.  It seems deliberately misleading.  My quote is clearly a build up to a concluding statement:

_So I have story X, what are some tips I can use to make it more diverse, and do so without over-extending the boundaries of my story or my own ability to identify with these characters?
_
By leaving out the main point, I can only conclude that on some level you're choosing to misunderstand or misrepresent my post in an effort to equate it wrongly with one that others have made.  I wasn't simply taking a "pro-diversity" side in an argument, but making a call for actionable suggestions, which presumably anyone could choose to accept or not on their own accord.

Similarly, you accuse me of previously seeking "an easy way out" of complicated problems.  I have in the past called for tips, for tropes, for archetypes, for people to herald not just examples but concrete explanations of how those examples work:  That is, I have called, repeatedly, for people to help develop the missing literary framework that normally underpins everything we do in our writing but is currently - I said missing, but missing isn't the right word - let's say _underaccepted_, when it comes to diversity.  That is far from an easy way out; that is a call for people to work on it.

Finally, you accuse me of massively misreading what other people have said.  I didn't really see any in a brief perusal of that particular thread, but I'm sure that there are examples of it.  However, I would suggest that as I see a clear throughline in my posts on this issue, which you have chosen to ignore on a number of occasions, that you may be projecting your own unwillingness to accurately address my position, in an effort to avoid responding to it.


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## A. E. Lowan (Oct 20, 2014)

Okay, here's the thing: diversity in representation isn't only about including POC characters in our fiction (though this is one of the most contentious and visible aspects).  It also includes, but is not limited to, gender/gender identity, sexual orientation, and disability.

Basically it includes everything that is not the straight, white, able-bodied/mind, male default.  In other words, the entire rest of the world.  And when the rest of the world is left out of most fiction, when we continue to support and recreate this narrative of the Chosen One/Farm Boy Prince, we essentially say, "Only these people get stories."

And the response to this challenge tends to be, "But there needs to be a plot reason for a character to be brown/female/gay/trans/disabled!  You can't just shoehorn these people into stories."  It's an interesting, and telling, question.  Everyone else needs to have a justification to exist.

The question I would ask in return is, "What plot reason do we have for characters to be straight, white, and male?"

Alternate Visions: Some Musings on Diversity in SF | Antariksh Yatra



> The first science fiction story I ever wrote, when I was maybe nine or ten, had to do with five people who go off on a spaceship to have adventures.  All these people were white and male.  I’d never met a white man, yet he was my default.



This question itself is very telling of what comes of having a single, monolithic narrative. Thinking about what has been written by Vadana Singh, above, and said by Chimamanda Adichie about writing their first stories, they say the same things - they wrote their earliest stories about white men, even when they had never laid eyes on one, because that was who the books they read were about.

Little brown girls, one in Delhi, one in Nigeria, writing their stories about white men in the snow, because they couldn’t imagine stories about little brown girls.

It’s time for new stories.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 20, 2014)

I get the feeling there's a few different discussions going on in this thread (and other threads we've had on the topic).
1. Who's responsibility is it to provide diverse stories?
2. How do you include diversity in your stories.
3. What is diversity anyway?
4. Why should we bother with it?

I think all four are interesting topics of discussion, and I tend to quite enjoy them. However, these threads can get a little heated, which in turn leads to confusion.
Basically, we're all rather different here, with different views on what's important. That's also something to consider.

5. Meta-discussion about the discussion.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 20, 2014)

A friend of mine brought up an interesting point about the new Alien game (I forgot the exact title). It's some kind of survival horror with a strong female main character.
What my friend pointed out is that in just survival horror female leads are more common than male ones (I accepted this without double-checking). He then asked what this says about how we associate powerlessness with player controlled characters?


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## Steerpike (Oct 20, 2014)

Interesting thing about the _Alien_ franchise is that the character Ripley, from the original movie, was originally male. Some have speculated that the reason they did such a good job of providing a strong female character is that they didn't originally write the character with a bunch of preconceived notions of how a female character would act. They were writing for the default, a male.

Horror movies and games do draw the viewer or player to identify with or experience powerlessness. I've also heard it theorized that at least for games, the idea is that mostly males play horror survival type games and they are tapping into a protective instinct. I have never seen any data to back up who plays those games, and I'm not sure whether there is anything to this. I can say, as an anecdote, that when I played Bioshock I always saved the little sisters because I didn't like the idea of hurting the little girls, even in a video game, and even if they were creepy.

For another survival game, but one that is not horror per se, I though the newest Tomb Raider release did a pretty good job with a female protagonist. And thankfully they scaled back Laura Croft's breast size a few orders of magnitude and gave her a reasonable waistline.


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## Trick (Oct 20, 2014)

Svrtnsse said:


> I get the feeling there's a few different discussions going on in this thread (and other threads we've had on the topic).
> 1. Who's responsibility is it to provide diverse stories?
> 2. How do you include diversity in your stories.
> 3. What is diversity anyway?
> ...



I don't really know why but I want to address the four discussions you pointed out from my perspective. Maybe others do as well?

1. Who's responsibility is it to provide diverse stories?

Everyone's? Even if it's only for the sake of breaking from the norm and hopefully not just to appease people. All things employed should add to the story and diversity among the characters can make things much more interesting. 

2. How do you include diversity in your stories.

By learning about as many cultures, modes of thought, beliefs, ideas, experiences, disabilities and, in general, people as we can so our idea pool comes from all over the world. If a white man writes a book about white men, that's obviously fine, but it seems a little too easy in some ways. If he, or anyone writing with a lack of diversity, had studied Africa, Asia and other places more in-depth or tried harder to understand the life experiences of women living in Russia, as a random example, or any other culture/person different from himself he, or anyone, might have been inspired to write characters from other walks of life, places and races. Basically, studying everything about humans we can get our hands on will majorly add to diversity in our writing. 

3. What is diversity anyway?

In writing it seems to be the representation of as many kinds of people and places as is probable for a given story. Since there are still so many stories to be told and so many who can tell them, it might just be the direction that written stories need to go in the future for the sake of originality. If done well, diversity will only add to the value of a given story but it can seem hard to tackle as so many in this world are offended by what may or may not be a misrepresentation of their own unique experiences. If I make a character different from me in race/origin/religion/disability/gender/etc appear as evil, will that make people think that my belief is that "those kinds of people" are all evil? It wouldn't be true but some readers will believe it anyway. So, am I then pressured into only painting my own people as evil? That can't work either. Balance must be achieved and honesty must be present. 

4. Why should we bother with it?

Because it's a challenge! A good one too. Of course I should only write what I want to write but I really want to write something that many different kinds of people want to read and diversity put to practical use in my work is a wide path to achieving that.


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## Chessie (Oct 20, 2014)

There have been some very interesting points made in this thread. Diversity in fiction is always a good topic to discuss. I do agree with the points Mythopoet made about publishers rejecting works that they can't market, but how do we know if those manuscripts have diversity in them?

I read on the Kindle a lot, many of those books being self published. I have yet to come across a story that includes races other than Caucasians. But that doesn't really bother me since I'm used to it. And I think that's probably one of the reasons more diversity isn't included in literature--that we, as readers, have come to expect certain elements in stories and don't question it otherwise. In order for diversity to exist, then we as writers have to do something different. 

White male characters have been the minority in my stories. I prefer to write from the female perspective for the very reason that many of the books I read are written from the male pov. One of my writing goals is to produce work that represents "the rest of the world". Although I love medieval fantasy and peasant boys turning into heroes, our genre really could benefit from diversity. Most of what I read isn't even fantasy anymore because there's so much of the same! 

People are going to write what they want to write and that's fine. Maybe my work will be liked because there's Native Americans in it, girls with curly kinky hair and brown skin like mine all mixed in. Humanity is beautiful in its diversity and the more that its brought into literature, the more enriched stories will be. And also I don't think anyone needs a reason to write about characters that are brown, gay, whatever. Just throw them in there! Why does there need to be a reason for the rest of the world to exist in literature? One thing I have always thought about too in the fantasy genre is that instead of writing about elves, orcs, dwarves, and whatever other tropes have been beaten into the ground why not write about a race other than your own? It is totally possible to have a kick ass fantasy story with something other than that.


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## Devor (Oct 20, 2014)

Chesterama said:


> Maybe my work will be liked because there's Native Americans in it, girls with curly kinky hair and brown skin like mine all mixed in.



Chesterama, sorry for the aside, but I was just wondering if your story is set in the real world or a fantasy world?  I was just wondering because you mention Native Americans, and I was kind of curious to hear more about how you were handling them.

I ran a D&D game once back in High School about Native American cultures being invaded by Japanese cultures - a battle of the mythologies - but just the thought of doing it justice in a book sounded overwhelming.


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## Chessie (Oct 20, 2014)

Hi Devor, thanks for asking. No, the story isn't set in the real world but it is an all human world. Basically, I am imitating the point in history after Alaska Natives were taken over by the Russians so there is a mixture in the cultures. There are Russian and Native American elements in the names of characters, places, foods, etc. The execution has been pretty easy--there is no real explanation for the readers except that this land has been invaded and there is racial tension. I'm trying to showcase what happens to indigenous populations when something that drastic happens. Why? Because I love history and I love Native peoples and damn straight I'm going to jump at the chance to write about them.


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## Steerpike (Oct 20, 2014)

Sounds like a cool story, Chesterama. My WiP features a protagonist of native American descent, which figures heavily into the story.


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## Devor (Oct 20, 2014)

Chesterama said:


> The execution has been pretty easy--there is no real explanation for the readers except that this land has been invaded and there is racial tension. I'm trying to showcase what happens to indigenous populations when something that drastic happens.



Thanks Chesterama.  I appreciate that you answered, especially because it sounds like it could be a good read.  I guess what I was really curious to know was what kind of fantasy elements you're using.

But back to the topic:  

One of the things I am interested to see is what a high fantasy story looks like from the perspective of a non-western tradition.  How does a modern fantasy reader, who is Native American or African or Asian or so on, choose to portray their own heritage in a big wallapooza of a high fantasy setting?


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## Chessie (Oct 20, 2014)

Not to hijack this thread but...

Devor, to answer your question (which is somewhat on topic), the fantasy elements I'm using are the same as any other story: magic. The indigenous population uses light based magic (the aurora lights being the main source) derived from my research of Native American mythology along with Shamanic traditions and magical totem poles. Also talking animals, which appears a lot in Native stories. I think when creating a fantasy setting for a culture that isn't our own, using that culture's mythology is what adds the zing and makes it different from other types of fantasy. 

Writing about other world cultures is fun and totally doable as a way to add in diversity.


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## Tom (Oct 20, 2014)

I am as white as the newfallen snow. This used to make me afraid to write a person of color. _What if I do it wrong? What if someone's offended by my portrayal of this character?_

Then I realized that people are just people. Plus, diversity isn't just between shades of skin color. Even within a single group (like Europeans) there's a huge spectrum of culture. Spain is nothing like Norway, and Eastern Europe is definitely very different from Western. I may become very unpopular for saying this, but you also have to be careful not to lump "white people" into one big group just because they share a light skin tone. I'm not just "white", I'm Irish, German, Welsh, Polish, and Scottish, and every aspect of my heritage brings with it a unique culture and history. Assuming that because I'm white, I must be like every other white person on the planet is like assuming that because someone is a POC, they must be like every other POC on the planet.

Fantasy is a nice genre to write in, because a fantasy world may not have the same issues as ours. 

For instance, my MC is what most people would consider Native American, but I chose to give his culture a Celtic base, and make them the dominant society in their little corner of the world. Therefore his brownish skin and black hair is normal. However, when he heads north on the obligatory quest, he's suddenly and acutely in the minority among the northern people, who have fair skin and black or red hair.

Another character comes from a culture originally from the far north, who are now a minority living in the same country as the dominant culture. This guy has blond hair and pale skin, and because of that he's obviously an outsider. Even as they go further north, he's still a minority, because his culture is from a different continent entirely and has no relation to the northern people they're now traveling among.

I drew on my own experiences to write about the situations of both characters, and how they relate to them. I know what it's like to be the outsider (there is nothing like being an Irishman or Polska surrounded by a group of friends cracking Irish or Polish jokes...it's just...awful). And I know what it's like to be in the majority (Irishman/Polska's revenge: Buffalo's Celtic Fair or Dingus Day parade!). The emotions and thoughts are all there, they just need to be reinterpreted and written down.

I enjoy really mixing things up, needless to say.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 20, 2014)

For what it's worth, my favorite cultural influences to work with are ancient Egyptian and sub-Saharan African. Actually, I love weaving these elements together into the same culture. I always found Egypt especially appealing because it was this very ancient and mighty empire that developed within the so-called "Dark Continent" of Africa, never mind the pop-culture tendency to conflate it with the later Islamic Arab culture. Of course Africa has produced other civilizations like Kush, Aksum, Mali, and Zimbabwe, but Egypt was the first I learned about and so holds a special place in my heart.

Ironically, the very fact that I mix my Egyptian elements with sub-Saharan rather than Arab ones has made me the target of racism charges. But these never come from African people themselves.


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## Feo Takahari (Oct 20, 2014)

I'll just step aside from everything I've previously posted in this thread, because I don't think I'd be able to get any of it to go anywhere and not waste everyone's time.

Building on what Svrtnsse said about personality, let me reconstruct my chain of thought when writing one of my earlier stories. I'd like to state in advance that this was a _failed_ story--I'll explain why in a moment.

I need someone who supports the villain and someone who opposes her. *Two basic characters are created* So the orderly one supports the villain, and the chaotic one opposes her. But she's not really an order-based character, so I need two more. Organized religion would be an orderly reason to oppose her. Chaotic supporting . . . Well, she's all about liberation. Maybe a hunter who becomes a wild beast? *Two more characters* Hmm, the orderly opposer needs a bit more conflict. I could make him gay, I guess. And he clings to his anti-gay religion, while she's totally okay with gay people . . . Oh, and this plot point would work well if the main characters share a language that the other two don't speak. I know a little Spanish, so how about making them Spanish-speakers?

As you might have guessed, this was incredibly tokenistic. Characters didn't have organic wants and needs, they just stood as obvious archetypes. But in the book I published, my method wasn't all that different.

A nature hero, a magic hero, and a science hero . . . How about a werewolf, a necromancer, and a member of a monster-hunting society? The hunter loves the necromancer, but is off-put by his beliefs, and so on down the chain . . . *Three characters created* No, the necromancer isn't working as a character. I'll replace him with a magical girl, and I'll change the monster hunter to a superhero as well--three genres in one! A gay magical girl is way too cliche, so I'll change the werewolf to male. That means either a gay werewolf or a lesbian superhero . . . But does it need to be sexual love? Nah, I'll make these characters _think_ of themselves as straight, so the superhero doesn't know what to make of feeling love towards another girl. But now I've got all these characters who're wrong about what they think they are, and I don't want the story to come off as a sermon on conformity. I'll make one who's actually right when she says she's not what everyone categorizes her as . . . Okay, the magical girl is biologically male! *More scribbling ensues*

The process was the same, but I didn't try for any specific tokens, even moving away from some minorities when they didn't work for the story I wanted to tell. This had pitfalls of its own (I needed to be _very_ careful to frame the magical girl as a girl in a boy's body, not a boy who dresses like a girl), but it resulted in a story that I'm quite proud of, and that happens to represent multiple minorities.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 20, 2014)

I did some thinking...

I think we can probably all agree that diversity IS important, right? Let's assume we do.

Thing is. There are a lot of things that are important and even then we don't really pay heed to them. Things like exercising regularly and eating well, or maybe the environment or the economy, or perhaps politics or charity.
There's tons of things that are important and there's only so much time and energy we have to devote to them.

I just want to write my stupid story and be done with. I wish I didn't have to bother worrying about whether I'm diverse enough or if I'm including enough characters of various ethnicities or genders.

Yes, I'm exaggerating,  but I'm sure you can see the point I'm making: When you're fueling your work with passion it can be difficult to include things you're less than passionate about.
So while I care about diversity and know that it's important, I care more about writing the story I want to write.

Perhaps the focus on these discussions shouldn't be on the importance of diversity, but on its benefits. What benefits do I gain by diversifying my characters and my setting? What does my story gain from it?
For me, the answer is quite easy: it adds depth to my setting. Depth of setting is something that's important to me and that I'm passionate about.

I'm sure there are other answers and other benefits, but the above is what first came to mind. How about you guys?


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## Devor (Oct 20, 2014)

Svrtnsse said:


> Perhaps the focus on these discussions shouldn't be on the importance of diversity, but on its benefits. What benefits do I gain by diversifying my characters and my setting? What does my story gain from it?



I worked with a guy.  Blue collar job, one summer, mostly cutting grass.  Used to dote about how great his girlfriend was, how she made the best tuna in her job at Quiznos.  He was a smart guy, big on conspiracies, up for a promotion at work.  He and his girlfriend lived together and had a kid together.  Great guy.

Until he ditched them.  He talked some girl into . . . . at work.  And a few weeks later he moved out, and was complaining that he should've done it months earlier, before he spent money on them.

My last day on the job, the boss was out, and he brought his computer to work, so he could bring it to multiple work sites and show a dozen guys his favorite porn.  It was one of the most awkward days ever.

I don't know too much more than that about his life.  But when I was a boy I read Lewis, and Tolkein, and Wrede.  In college I read G.K. Chesterton, the guy in my signature below, who has written about the morality he learned from fairy tales.  Morals.  From fairy tales.

I've never seen a fantasy book I thought the guy I knew would ever have wanted to read, even as a kid.  It's that simple.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 20, 2014)

By your description it sounds like the kind of guy who'd rather not read at all.

I think I'm missing your point though. I don't quite see how it relates to the part of what I wrote that you quoted.


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## Devor (Oct 20, 2014)

Svrtnsse said:


> By your description it sounds like the kind of guy who'd rather not read at all.



No, that's not at all what I was suggesting.  He was pretty smart and read quite a bit, and brought books in one day to try and show me all the ways I was wrong about this or that.  He read the sort of books that I would call nonsense, but sat in some kind of new age aisle.




> I think I'm missing your point though. I don't quite see how it relates to the part of what I wrote that you quoted.



Diversity in fantasy helps you to reach more people, possibly at an age when they're still making decisions that shape what kind of person they want to be, who might need to be reached.

I have a friend who told me she took _refuge_ in reading her fantasy books when she was growing up.  But there are people to whom that refuge simply doesn't appeal to, for no reason other than that they aren't included.

It's not an academic question.  It's not a fairness question.  It's not a question about depth.  It's a question about how books can affect real people.

Imagine your life if all the fantasy books you've read weren't there.  Box them up, give them to your neighbor, they're for red-headed kids only, go do something else.  For some groups of people that's what it's like.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 20, 2014)

Thanks for the clarification. I see what you mean and I have no objections to it (at this time). I think you were just coming in from a different angle and that threw me off a little bit.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Oct 21, 2014)

Svrtnsse said:


> I just want to write my stupid story and be done with.


This is where I am.

Seeing how I have an Asian wife and mixed-race kids, diversity can come naturally for me. But I think that's the key: it has to _naturally_ fall into your story.

The first novel I wrote had a black man. It wasn't because I wanted a diverse cast. I was into Cowboy Bebop and I thought this character of mine would talk like Jet Black (who's English dubbing is voiced by a black man. With a great voice).

A story I'm working on now will probably have a Mexican character. Again, it's just how I picture the guy. I don't plan to have him speak Spanglish or anything, just like there's no fanfare whenever I introduce a white guy.


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## Spider (Oct 21, 2014)

*rookie steps in* I have a few questions. 

I get that diversity is important in writing to reflect different cultures and beliefs. However, one of the things that Adichie mentioned in the TED talk was how her professor claimed that her book did not have “African authenticity” because it portrayed Africans as “normal,” people who drove cars and had lives that were, in ways, similar to the lives of Americans. (I watched the video last night & I’m writing this out of memory, so correct me if I’m wrong.) One of the things that I got out of the video was that an important aspect of diversity is about showing that people of all genders, races, etc. all have multiple stories and shouldn’t be stereotyped into one story that defines an entire group of people.

I guess my question is how do you have diversity in your writing without isolating a group of people from everyone else? Shouldn’t diversity be about connecting people? (If you portrayed, say, a colored person as someone who is similar to a non-colored person, is that any different from simply slapping color onto the person for the sake of making him/her diverse? I assume that the intention would be to appeal to another audience.)

I liked Svrtnsse’s comment earlier about how the world can treat and influence a person based on their visual appearance. But if the story focuses on a group of people (without any outside influences), then how to depict their diversity even when representing them as a people with similar lifestyles as that of others?


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## Feo Takahari (Oct 21, 2014)

Spider said:


> I guess my question is how do you have diversity in your writing without isolating a group of people from everyone else? Shouldn’t diversity be about connecting people? (If you portrayed, say, a colored person as someone who is similar to a non-colored person, is that any different from simply slapping color onto the person for the sake of making him/her diverse? I assume that the intention would be to appeal to another audience.)
> 
> I liked Svrtnsse’s comment earlier about how the world can treat and influence a person based on their visual appearance. But if the story focuses on a group of people (without any outside influences), then how to depict their diversity even when representing them as a people with similar lifestyles as that of others?



On the former paragraph: I mentioned a few posts up that I have a character I wrote as trans because I wanted to have someone who was right about her identity. The thing is, she's a girl, and I never try to portray her as anything else. I'm generally pretty lax about gender in my stories, but for this one specific character, I'm very specific about always referring to her as a girl. I think that's still representation.

On the latter paragraph: I think what happens then is that you put in half the equation. You write about the group of people, portraying how they act and think, and then readers fill in any differences that may exist between themselves and the characters.


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## Mythopoet (Oct 21, 2014)

Svrtnsse said:


> I get the feeling there's a few different discussions going on in this thread (and other threads we've had on the topic).
> 1. Who's responsibility is it to provide diverse stories?
> 2. How do you include diversity in your stories.
> 3. What is diversity anyway?
> 4. Why should we bother with it?



These are really excellent questions and exactly how the discussion should be framed. But I think it's best to start with your number 3. 

*What is diversity? *

This is an oft overlooked question. Everyone thinks they know what diversity is, but then the conversation devolves because they're actually talking about different things. 

My concern is this: whenever I come across these discussions about diversity on forums or blogs it tends to revolve around a very specific kind of diversity: representative demographic diversity. In other words, you need to have a carefully selected smattering of every skin color, every ethnicity, every gender and non-gender, and every sexual orientation. And if you just don't want to write stories containing representations of all those things then you're generally viewed as a racist/sexist/whatever-ist. 

I'll be direct here: in my opinion, this is not diversity. Certainly not the kind of diversity that matters, anyway. 

By pressuring authors to include people of all types of skin color, while at the same time stressing that the skin color shouldn't make any difference to their character, aren't we basically saying that what's important is skin color? Isn't that racist? 

Another example that confuses me is when people talk about great female characters who are great _because_ they are basically indistinguishable from a man, except that they have breasts. If male and female characters are supposed to be essentially the same, then why does it matter whether the character is a man or a woman? Aren't we then basically saying that the only important characteristic of a woman is her reproductive system? Isn't that sexist? 

For these inconsistencies and for other reasons, I just can't get behind the "representative demographic" type of diversity. 

_So what kind of diversity do I think is important? _

Representative diversity seems to generally revolve around physical and biological characteristics. Whereas I believe that diversity of thought, worldview, values and beliefs is much more important. 

One of the major functions of storytelling is to teach people empathy, something that no one is born with. (Believe me, I've got 5 kids, none of them were born with it.) Many people seem to think that empathy can be taught by saying, "See all of these physically different people? They're really all the same inside, and so are you." I disagree. I think empathy is taught by saying, "This is how this person, who is very different from you, thinks and feels and believes. Learn to understand them as they are and learn to be able to think and feel and believe as they do." This is how both empathy and critical thinking are fostered, by learning to look at the world from many points of view that are different from your own. 

For this type of diversity, physical differences are mostly irrelevant and can actually be distracting. 

Back to Svrt's questions...

*Who's responsibility is it to provide diverse stories?
*

Every storyteller's, to a certain extent. And by that I mean that since one of the major functions of storytelling is to help people learn empathy, all stories should partake in that function at least a little. 

However, I do not think it is something an author should be pressured into doing. It's not something that you can do well just by trying. The author needs to be able to naturally portray many worldviews for diverse stories to be beneficial. 

Nor do I think that every story that every author writes needs to be written in order to promote diversity. Stories are entertainment, after all. 

It's fine for authors who are concerned about diversity to work at it, but I do not think it is ok to pressure other writers who are just trying to have fun and improve their craft. 

* How do you include diversity in your stories.*

This is the hardest question because it has an infinity of answers. Every author and every story will require a different answer. I wouldn't even attempt to answer it without a specific example to use.


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## Steerpike (Oct 21, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> My concern is this: whenever I come across these discussions about diversity on forums or blogs it tends to revolve around a very specific kind of diversity: representative demographic diversity. In other words, you need to have a carefully selected smattering of every skin color, every ethnicity, every gender and non-gender, and every sexual orientation. And if you just don't want to write stories containing representations of all those things then you're generally viewed as a racist/sexist/whatever-ist.



I've never seen anyone make that argument. Any example (i.e. link) to someone arguing that every story should have a representative sample of every demographic included in it? If anyone is making that argument, disregard them. 



Mythopoet said:


> Another example that confuses me is when people talk about great female characters who are great _because_ they are basically indistinguishable from a man, except that they have breasts. If male and female characters are supposed to be essentially the same, then why does it matter whether the character is a man or a woman? Aren't we then basically saying that the only important characteristic of a woman is her reproductive system? Isn't that sexist?



I've never seen anyone argue that any two characters, male or female, should be the same. Characters should be individuals, defined by the traits that make them such, whether male or female. This seems like a straw man to me, as with the "you need every demographic" argument, though maybe people are making those arguments and I just haven't seen it.



Mythopoet said:


> Representative diversity seems to generally revolve around physical and biological characteristics. Whereas I believe that diversity of thought, worldview, values and beliefs is much more important.



They're not mutually-exclusive. They're both important.



Mythopoet said:


> Nor do I think that every story that every author writes needs to be written in order to promote diversity. Stories are entertainment, after all.



I don't think anyone thinks this.



Mythopoet said:


> It's fine for authors who are concerned about diversity to work at it, but I do not think it is ok to pressure other writers who are just trying to have fun and improve their craft.



I see a lot of discussion about it. Not so much pressuring in fiction writing (as opposed to, say, television, where I think there is pressure. People simply speaking up and stating their opinions or their own practices isn't pressuring.


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## Philip Overby (Oct 21, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> Representative diversity seems to generally revolve around physical and biological characteristics. Whereas I believe that diversity of thought, worldview, values and beliefs is much more important.



I think this is more of the kind of diversity I'm interested in reading and writing myself. From living in a foreign country, I've become way more interested in the worldview and belief systems rather than skin color. There are multitudes of different skin colors in the world, but what makes them interesting and unique are their diversity even amongst people who look biologically the same. A worldview point I felt was kind of funny. I asked my students what they think Americans eat. Out of almost 100 students almost all of them at least said hamburgers. I asked, "Do you think they eat hamburgers every day?" Some, without even a hint of irony, said, "Yes." This is how some people view Americans. To me, this is fascinating. This is story material. 

Age is even a thing I think gets overlooked a lot in these discussions. Most fantasy novels involve young people, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed looking for adventure. But sometimes it's good to see people on the tail end of life, reflecting and finding new adventures appropriate (or even more fun, inappropriate) for their age. 

While I do like including different races in my stories, it's more for differences of culture and beliefs rather than just representing a certain group of people. I want to represent a diverse world on a deeper level if I can, not just gender-flipping characters (although that can sometimes have interesting results) or changing a character's race. I want to change their _character_, their _being_ by doing these things. Not sure how successful I've been, but it's something I've been striving for.


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## Chessie (Oct 21, 2014)

Hi, I also did some reflecting on the latest answers here. Yes, I do think that diversity in fiction isn't just about race/skin color. Phil makes a good point about age (like, how many 17 year olds can we read about) and bringing a different world view all together.

If my first post sounded preachy that all authors should write about other things, then I apologize. Writers should write about what moves them. I do, however, still think that we only stand to benefit from creating stories that are outside the norm. 

Every writer has a different message to share with the world. That's beautiful. But I don't see the harm in having these sorts of discussions. We should have our eyes open to the potential influence our work has on others. That goes for any art in general. Our words and messages have power. Does that mean everyone here should write a story with someone of a different skin color? No. But to those writers who have an interest in doing so then they should. I do agree that its something that should come naturally instead of forced. But this discussion isn't about force, its about being aware of the influence our work has on others.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 21, 2014)

I've been musing on how to include/improve diversity in stories.
It's really easy to make the argument that including diversity just to be more diverse/varied isn't necessarily a good thing. It may fragment the story or distract from the message, or in other ways have a negative impact on the work. It doesn't have to, but it might.

How about the opposite?
The way I see it, the opposite of diversity is conformity and the building blocks of conformity are stereotypes. The more stereotypes you include in your story, the more it will conform to reader expectations - potentially to the point where it becomes a bland copy of the average of everything else.

Wouldn't it be accurate to say that by stepping away from stereotypes you step towards diversity?

This may sound a bit rich coming from me. I recall posting in another thread just recently (last two weeks) that I like to include stereotypes in my story.
I do. I think stereotypes are a great tool for creating a setting/situation that a reader can relate to. Does this make my story less diverse and more conformist?
I like to think it doesn't. I like to think that by using stereotypes in a clever way and contrasting them against non-stereotype elements I'm increasing the depth of my story/setting (I might not, but that's probably more a question of execution). 
So, the way to increase diversity isn't necessarily to avoid using stereotypes, but to be aware of them and of how you use them in your story.


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## Ankari (Oct 22, 2014)

I'd like to expand on Mythopoet's comments, as I feel they address crucial concepts.



> Another example that confuses me is when people talk about great female characters who are great because they are basically indistinguishable from a man, except that they have breasts. If male and female characters are supposed to be essentially the same, then why does it matter whether the character is a man or a woman? Aren't we then basically saying that the only important characteristic of a woman is her reproductive system? Isn't that sexist?



This has been the method offered to include (insert race/gender) in stories. If characters of color/gender/sexual orientation are all the same, except for a change of pronoun or adjective usage, than how is this diversity?

I think those who ask for more diversity want more than superficial changes. They want to share with a wider audience experiences unique to the under-represented. This is a heavy burden to place on an author. Such experiences carry enormous social implications. Get them wrong and you're likely to earn an unjust branding, or rejection at best. Authors already contend with the judgement of story/idea/writing. Now they are asked to endure another form of judgement?

Experiences are best shared by those who have endured them. Authors can sensitize themselves to certain experiences, but not all. Especially when, as a stranger, you (second person) are ignorant of the many layers involved in an experience. I do wonder why those who ask for more diversity stop asking and start producing. They usually belong to the under-represented population and want to see their experiences shared. Who best to share them than the ones who have lived them? 

I'm not opposing the idea of diversity (I've created many races in my world, and even have a matriarchial society), but those who would ask for diversity need to be sensitive to authors' source of reluctance.


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## Philip Overby (Oct 22, 2014)

I do agree that it is hard to know where to start with trying to develop more diverse worlds and characters. In my early novels, I never really thought much about race, gender, or even culture. It was more like "this guy's an assassin" or "this woman's a sorcereress." On a base level, it works, but when you really start to look at characters, they have so much more potential to be fleshed out by thinking about other attributes that can be added.

One worry I have as well is misrepresenting a group of people. I don't know much about gender identity (I only recently learned the term cis), so I don't feel completely comfortable trying to represent them in a story. What happens for me though is a gradual shift. The more I learn about different kinds of people and become interested in their culture and lifestyle, the more it encourages me to include them in my stories. I don't think including diversity in stories is one of those wake up one day and see the light kind of things. As I said, for me it's more gradual. At the same time, however, I try to not completely eradicate straight white males from my novels. I want all kinds of people in my novels.  I'm trying to branch out, but still use elements of my roots in fantasy.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 22, 2014)

Ankari said:


> I think those who ask for more diversity want more than superficial changes. They want to share with a wider audience experiences unique to the under-represented.


I dunno, if I were an African or Afro-Diasporan person (for example), I'd probably be dead sick of reading about my people's subjugation and victimization at the hands of Europeans. I always felt that the Black History courses taught in college, whether African or African-American, fixated on narratives of oppression. That's indisputably important information to know, but I imagine black people don't want to be reminded of their marginalized (or "under-represented") status in all the fiction they read. They already experience enough of that in their day-to-day lives.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 22, 2014)

I believe the point I meant to communicate in my last post was that stories featuring under-represented groups shouldn't have to limit themselves to narratives about being under-represented or marginalized. These minorities deserve the same range of stories as dominant groups do, and if anything could stand to receive stories that don't remind them of their less privileged status.

Why can't the barbarian warrior who cleaves the skulls of evil wizards be Asian instead of a pseudo-Celtic "Cimmerian"? Why can't the leopardskin-clad huntress who fights Velociraptors in the jungle be African instead of a European blonde? And why can't the epic quest to dispose of a corrupting ring take place in Mesoamerica instead of Europe, with nahuals supplanting the elves? Mind you, I'm not advocating that race-bending existing stories is sufficient to add diversity. I'm just saying that stories with "minority" characters should not have to center on the experience of being an oppressed class.

Some of these changes might seem cosmetic, unless you really want to base your characters' backgrounds off certain cultures in the real world. Actually, in the specific case of non-European people, I would go so far as to say you don't _necessarily_ have to match their race with a specific culture. Not every dark-skinned person with kinky hair needs to hail from a particular African culture, not does every light-skinned person with narrow eyes and straight black hair have to resemble a particular Asian nationality. You can have black Scots and Asian Zulus for all I care.


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## Devor (Oct 22, 2014)

Ankari said:


> If characters of color/gender/sexual orientation are all the same, except for a change of pronoun or adjective usage, than how is this diversity?



^This.  If all you're making is an aesthetic change, then you're invalidating the culture you're supposed to be representing, by making them otherwise more like yourself.  I mean, don't get me wrong, there are a great many contexts where the broader differences may not even be relevant for a specific character, and simply changing the aesthetics might be fine.  But if you're intending to develop a character with any kind of depth, you need to include the differences.

The other solution people have mentioned (forgive me, but I forget what was mentioned here or what was mentioned in the other thread Feo had me looking at) was to include the foreigner, but I very much feel that this is also not usually real diversity.  You're still viewing the foreigner from the perspective of the outsider.

Real diversity, in my view, is better articulated with a focus on _*understanding **subcultures*_, not in merely swapping out racial or gender labels.


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## Trick (Oct 22, 2014)

I think that this idea of swapping races, genders etc is uniquely doable in fantasy without the same issues present for other genres. If I wrote a murder mystery that takes place in the real world I could have a black female detective (which is actually generating story ideas for me now  ) but I would have to take into consideration how her life experiences would differ from my own and properly represent her as a person. But, in a fantasy book, why can't a black woman be from a world very different than our own? Perhaps it's matriarchal and black people are the majority? Wouldn't that make her different than a black woman from our world in terms of life experience? So she may behave/believe differently than people at first expect but I think fantasy readers are used to this. 

Diversity in fantasy, at least when it comes to race and culture, might be more easily accomplished because we aren't necessarily called to represent actual cultures so much as diversity itself. Having varying races/cultures/kinds of experiences in a fantasy book...  isn't that just world-building? Maybe that's where diversity in fantasy can begin improving. 

In my own WIP, the MC is a white male but he does not come from a world like ours and his closest tie to be being "European" is that his ancestral language is similar to German (largely because of my inability to come up with a language purely from scratch). His people were tribal before being overtaken by a military society. Thousands of years later, he and his kind live in oppression. That is not the typical white male experience in our world. There are also people with literally red skin and there culture is somewhat similar to Vikings with a smattering of Eastern European thrown in. They are not real races so their experiences are what I make them. 

However, is that not diversity? It may not represent any particular group in the real world but I don't have to do that because it's my book and those are not the deeper issues I have chosen to explore this time around. With all this discussion, I feel like my next work will be affected though and I think it's definitely a good thing.


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## Steerpike (Oct 22, 2014)

Very often when these discussions arise, you have everyone casting about for reasons or justifications for a diverse character. Many conclude that if they can't think of a reason for one, then there is something wrong with defining a given character as diverse in some way. This just reinforces the fact that there is a white, euro-centric default. You don't see people asking "how can I justify my character being a white person of european descent (or of that type). It's just assumed that the character can have those racial characteristics without any reason behind it. Of course, the same should be true for any race (focusing for a moment on racial diversity). You don't need any more reason to make a character black than you do to make them white. I think the same holds true for any issue of diversity. If you're casting about for a reason to explain why a character is diverse, you're already one step away from where you should be.


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## Trick (Oct 22, 2014)

Steerpike said:


> If you're casting about for a reason to explain why a character is diverse, you're already one step away from where you should be.



Well said. I think there is more to it sometimes though. If the writer is a white person of European descent it makes sense that their default would be to write about someone who fits there own experience of the world. I think the way to break that cycle is through studying as many different kinds of people as possible so that, when inspiration strikes, one naturally chooses a more diverse cast of characters because of a prior familiarity. Writing a story and then editing it for diversity seems like the wrong way to go about it. If I'm inspired to write a story and the first image in my head of the MC or other important characters is diverse, then I have achieved something.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 22, 2014)

Trick said:


> I think that this idea of swapping races, genders etc is uniquely doable in fantasy without the same issues present for other genres. If I wrote a murder mystery that takes place in the real world I could have a black female detective (which is actually generating story ideas for me now  ) but I would have to take into consideration how her life experiences would differ from my own and properly represent her as a person. But, in a fantasy book, why can't a black woman be from a world very different than our own? Perhaps it's matriarchal and black people are the majority? Wouldn't that make her different than a black woman from our world in terms of life experience? So she may behave/believe differently than people at first expect but I think fantasy readers are used to this.
> 
> Diversity in fantasy, at least when it comes to race and culture, might be more easily accomplished because we aren't necessarily called to represent actual cultures so much as diversity itself. Having varying races/cultures/kinds of experiences in a fantasy book...  isn't that just world-building? Maybe that's where diversity in fantasy can begin improving.


This is exactly the point I meant to make.

I should point out that there is a difference between race and culture (or ethnicity), so representing a race isn't necessarily the same as representing a culture. The definition of "race" has always been nebulous and variable (hence why anthropologists have come to regard it a social construct), but in general it has referred to certain suites of physical characteristics, or maybe genetic ancestry. Except in the sense that certain physical characteristics evolved to adapt to different environments (e.g. darker skin in response to more intense UV radiation), racial distinctions are for our purposes mostly cosmetic unlike cultural differences.

For example, Black African (or "Negroid" or whatever you want to call it) is a race. Zulu is a culture. Like I was saying, you can have people who physically resemble Africans in a world without giving them cultural traits identical to any real-world African society.


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## Trick (Oct 22, 2014)

Jabrosky said:


> For example, Black African (or "Negroid" or whatever you want to call it) is a race. Zulu is a culture. Like I was saying, you can have people who physically resemble Africans in a world without giving them cultural traits identical to any real-world African society.



Exactly! I think that is a freedom that fantasy writers have and many others don't. However, it doesn't preclude being respectful of the actual races (and cultures) we use for inspiration. The importance seems to weigh in on individual characters being exactly that, one person and not necessarily representative of their entire race or culture. 

I think 'race,' being cosmetic as you said, is one of many influences on culture and you are right that they are separate things. That's why I mentioned both. Thank you for the clarity I failed to use.

I've often joked that if my ancestors were transplanted to Africa, I wouldn't exist because they'd never have made it out alive (I'm basically 100% Irish by descent). Where you live shapes you and Africa is a harsh mother.


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## Devor (Oct 22, 2014)

Jabrosky said:


> For example, Black African (or "Negroid" or whatever you want to call it) is a race. Zulu is a culture. Like I was saying, you can have people who physically resemble Africans in a world without giving them cultural traits identical to any real-world African society.



I tried to delete my post here because it was muddled and I was frustrated that my keyboard wasn't working, but people ninjaed my deletion.  I'm choosing to restore it in a Spoiler tag.



Spoiler: Original Post



To put it bluntly, what kind of problem do you think that solves?

"Black African (or Negroid...)" might be a race or whatever, but for instance, "African American" is a culture (or a group of subcultures or whatever.....).*

The issue here is that we portray medieval societies, usually, through the lens of our own "white culture," not through an accurate historical one.  Granted, some works are better than others at hiding it, but no matter how much we try, our own cultures and views will ultimately seep through.  But if we're only going to continue to portray Africans through our own cultural lens, and not make the effort to portray other real world cultures on top of them, then we're only representing blacks as "us plus the fake," which only serves to invalidate the lives and experiences of real people.

*(Wow that's awkward.  I'm having trouble with "e" right now or I would try and fix it.)


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## Trick (Oct 22, 2014)

Devor said:


> ...no matter how much we try, our own cultures and views will ultimately seep through...
> 
> ... But if we're only going to continue to portray Africans through our own cultural lens, and not make the effort to portray other real world cultures on top of them, then we're only representing blacks as "us plus the fake," which only serves to invalidate the lives and experiences of real people.



So, no matter how hard we try, our cultures and views will seep through making it impossible to accurately represent other races and cultures but we have to be able to do that or we are representing other races/cultures as "us plus the fake." ? Is there no in between? And how does what Jabrosky said have anything to do with that? Am I totally misunderstanding you?

EDIT: This reply seems dumb now since the previous post is gone...


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## Jabrosky (Oct 22, 2014)

Devor said:


> To put it bluntly, what kind of problem do you think that solves?


I only meant to counter what I perceived to be the claim that including people of different races necessitates including certain real-world cultural characteristics along with those races. 

Of course, any world with multiple cultures separated by geographic distance will have cultural differences, regardless of how the people in those cultures look. Everyone who world-builds knows that. I am just saying that there's no rule that the different cultures must perfectly match real ones just because their respective people look vaguely similar.


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## Devor (Oct 22, 2014)

First:  I deleted my last post.  My keyboard on the other computer was driving me mad, which put me in a hurry and left the post more than a little muddled.

But here's the thing.  Calls for diversity have nothing to do with making things more interesting.  It's not about worldbuilding.  It's not even about your characters.

It's about connecting with the diverse elements of your audience.

That's what makes it difficult.  That's what makes it contentious.  It's about speaking towards people's diverse identities.

We don't do that by thinking, "Hrmm.  Foreign tribe.  Let's make them black.  Let's give them some exotic magic.  Ohh, gotta make sure they're developed like real people - just like the white guys!"

That isn't diversity.  It doesn't speak to people's diverse identities.

Now, I'm not saying that race-based worldbuilding is wrong.  I'm not advocating that everyone needs to include diversity.  What I'm saying is that diversity is challenging, which in turn, I will admit, also suggests that I am setting a high bar for what really is or is not diversity.

What I don't accept is people ignoring the challenges, pretending that understanding the nuances of subcultures is easy, inviting people to put their own biases on display because diversity is "so easy," and showing a great deal of ignorance of what the problems even are.

People are different.  As writers, we should spend less time dreaming up the fake and more time understanding why the real people around us are so very different, and in turn, figuring out how we can speak towards those differences in our writing.

So yes, I ask again:  Having a fake black culture is great.  But what kind of problem does that solve?


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## T.Allen.Smith (Oct 22, 2014)

Racial and cultural diversity is much easier to pull off in a fantasy setting than it may be in a contemporary one. I don't know much about being raised Chinese/American, for example. I could do it, but it'd take some learning on my part. In a fantasy setting though, I wouldn't be so restricted by cultural accuracy. 

In my opinion, just having people of different color, isn't true diversity IF the only thing that differs is physical appearance. It has to go deeper than that & it is more difficult for authors who may not identify with the racial/cultural group. You'd have to be willing to put the extra effort in if you have any hope of accurate representation. 

I also think the racial/cultural angle is easier than other groups people may identify with. Sexual orientation, or people who identify as a transgender for example, may be much more difficult to write and represent accurately if you don't have a lot of exposure to the differing lifestyles or experiences. 

Though I haven't written a gay MC before, I think I could pull off a homosexual character well. I've had, and still have, lots of exposure through family, friends, and work relations. Transgenderism though, I'd find more difficult. I'm almost certain I'd misrepresent the life of a transgender character because I know so little about transgender people. I'm not opposed to the idea. In fact, I think a transgender character could be quite interesting. But, if I was going to make a sincere attempt, I'd want a lot more exposure and direct communication with transgender people to assist me in getting their experiences down correctly.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Oct 22, 2014)

I'll sort of respond to how to avoid "us plus fake" based on my current plan to write a luchador.



Spoiler: a what?



*A LUCHADOR!
*
*





*​


I'm not Mexican, and I've never been a pro wrestler. So how can I write this guy?

For starters, I consider what I know that is relevant to this character.

* I have some cultural knowledge.
* I have some martial arts knowledge.
* I've known people who have similarities to my character.



Spoiler: the details



*CULTURAL:

I teach ESL. True, most of my students are Puerto Rican, Dominican, and from other Spanish-speaking places that aren't Mexico. I have had Mexican students in the past, though, so I have at least seen the cultural similarities to what I've been exposed to vs. what I'm exposed to regularly. I also read some of Gary Soto's work, which often portrays Mexican characters in the U.S. in a way intended for non-Spanish-speaking readers. Soto himself is Mexican.

So there's my personal connection with Latinos, and my exposure to Mexican characters written by a Mexican author.

*MARTIAL ARTS:

I've fought in karate tournaments (3 years ago, 20 years ago) and while my experience doesn't compare to Phil "The Drill" Overby, I've had a bit of fun staging fake wrestling moves which include moves that involve lifting people overhead and controlling the move so the head only appears to hit the ground. I also have experience with pins and holds (some of which are really painful) in martial arts classes, and a few times not in a class because I had to control a situation.

By no means am I a hulking mass of muscle, and most of the holds I learned in class would require a cooperative opponent because I really suck at leg locks and arm bars, but anyway, I can write my own experience with performing moves and fighting while a crowd reacts.

*LUCHADOR-LIKE PEOPLE:

A former coworker of mine was a professional fighter. He knew I was back into tournaments again and once he knew I was interested in hearing it, he told me about the life of a professional fighter. He didn't glamorize it. Loose women and substance abuse were part of his experience. While my character won't be a drug addict, this coworker does somewhat fit the look and personality of my character.

My Mexican student was a boxer, and in fact, the best in his age group in the area. A judge gave his win to his opponent, however, because his opponent was the son of a guy running the organization. I know that sounds like talk from a sore loser, but I saw the video of this fight. The opponent's coach questioned the call. I was also in a tournament in which the judge handed wins to his own students—this after giving everyone a pre-fight speech about not questioning a judge's call. (None of us had ever questioned a judge's call until fighting in this tournament!)


So, while nothing in the above spoiler tags makes me an authority on the life of a luchador, I have experiences that bring me part of the way there. (I dare say I'm more suited to writing a luchador than I am to writing a knight.)

I also have the interest in learning more, even knowing what I write is meant to be like a B-movie in book form. Could I swap out my Mexican for a white guy? Probably (since you can't tell if he's Mexican with the mask over his head). But the character in my head is a Mexican, so I'm going to write him that way. Just like I'll unapologetically write white guys when I picture my characters as white guys.


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## Devor (Oct 22, 2014)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> I'll sort of respond to how to avoid "us plus fake" based on my current plan to write a luchador.
> 
> . . . .
> 
> ...



Thanks, Mr. Legend.  I appreciate that you're discussing how you make the effort.


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## Trick (Oct 22, 2014)

Devor said:


> What I don't accept is people ignoring the challenges, pretending that understanding the nuances of subcultures is easy, inviting people to put their own biases on display because diversity is "so easy," and showing a great deal of ignorance of what the problems even are.



Who said diversity is "so easy" ? Are you still talking about to the concept of fantasy cultures being referred to as diversity? 



Devor said:


> So yes, I ask again: Having a fake black culture is great. But what kind of problem does that solve?



Who said it solved a problem? We talked about how it was a unique aspect of fantasy writing as opposed to other genres and it may have been implied that this practice in writing different cultures (though imaginary) could lead to better representation of real cultures in the future. It's like empathy practice.

The judgement of others as ignorant of "what the problems even are" seems rash.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 22, 2014)

Counter example:

I'm currently working on a scene where my male lead is spending some time alone with The Woman of the story. 
Neither of these characters are human - they're anfylk (not exactly, but sort of, like hobbits).
The woman is wearing a garment that leaves most of her legs bare and my MC is getting really excited about the fine blonde fur on her legs.
So, I have a non-human race and there's a certain level of arousal based on something that's not normally considered arousing in contemporary real-world pop-culture. Sure, it might be a little original and a little bit different, but in the end it's not actual an example of some kind of diversity in the sense we're discussing in this thread (and out of context like this it probably just sounds weird).

It's just a guy getting excited by seeing female parts he's not used to seeing.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Oct 22, 2014)

Svrtnsse said:


> It's just a guy getting excited by seeing female parts he's not used to seeing.


You got our number.

And again, a woman can write a scene like this using WORK-SAFE-RESEARCH to confirm that the male mind really works this way.

(0:54 & 2:12)

Yes, click the link. The video is work-safe. I stake my credibility as a moderator (and as a dad because my kids are sitting right next to me).


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## Trick (Oct 22, 2014)

Arousal is something most humans are familiar with, regardless of it's cause. But, I must say, that scene sounds amazing; funny and relatable.

This may have devolved into a disagreement about the definition of the word diversity and that's not going to go anywhere. The only thing I have left to say on this particular subject is: If I write from the perspective of someone very different than myself, whether those differences be cultural, racial, sexual, gender-related, age, belief system, experience-related, etc., I am improving myself as a writer. Even if those differences were manufactured in my own imagination, they are always based to some extent on real world aspects of humankind. If I get this experience and then attempt to write about someone imagined but with real world differences from myself I may be able to do it better than I could have before. The difference is that I could mess up and offend people or simply do it poorly and gain no readership while if I do it poorly for an imagined difference, it might not even get noticed. Diversity is not easily achieved in writing but as a fantasy writer I have a unique opportunity to practice it before dealing with the real world issues head on.

EDIT: I would like to cite a story Jabrosky posted in the showcase as a great example of this. Beyond the fact that it is very well done, it addresses racism in a fantasy setting and yet feels a lot like it addresses real world issues. Mythic Scribes, Fantasy Writing, Showcase: Cultural Contamination


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## Chessie (Oct 22, 2014)

This discussion took an interesting turn lol. Svrt, can I be an anfylk in your world? Shaving my legs gets exhausting. 

Back to topic though, so I read this really amazing story that is a good example of diversity in fantasy. "The Children Of The Shark God" by Peter S. Beagle in "Beyond The Pale Fantasy Anthology". Its a short story set in an Pacific island type of world and it even has characters swimming underwater and talking to animals. It was a refreshing read and I enjoyed it very much. 

It was also the first time I have read a fantasy story with this type of setting. That's part of the reason its stayed with me weeks after reading it. And it was heavy on the fantasy, showing what we all know that it can be done. The author executed the story with respect for island cultures and it shone through in his work. 

I think diversity is also important because it brings a new perspective to our much loved genre. We should write what inspires us but also not be afraid to explore other options. We are artists after all and even though we may have limited knowledge about other cultures outside of our own, that doesn't mean we can't learn about ones we're interested in for our work and create beautiful stories out of that.

I don't think the A.E. Lowan's intention was to say that all of us should write more diverse therefore we are failing as writers. And Ankari, while I do agree that writing about other cultures can be a lot of pressure, how are we to grow as artists if we don't expand our horizons? This is all just food for thought.


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## Feo Takahari (Oct 22, 2014)

I have a feeling I'm going to regret saying this, but I don't think lack of representation of any specific real-world group is the problem. It's _a_ problem, but not _the_ problem.

Let's go back to what Ngozi said:



> I wrote exactly the kinds of stories I was reading: All my characters were white and blue-eyed, they played in the snow, they ate apples, and they talked a lot about the weather, how lovely it was that the sun had come out. (Laughter) Now, this despite the fact that I lived in Nigeria. I had never been outside Nigeria. We didn't have snow, we ate mangoes, and we never talked about the weather, because there was no need to.



So Ngozi wasn't writing stories about people who looked like her. Childhood exposure to stories about people who looked like her would have been _a_ solution. But what about childhood exposure to stories about people who don't look like anyone? What if a child reads stories about dragons, or dinosaurs, or talking cats? And for that matter, what if the stories about people who play in snow and eat apples are accompanied by stories about people who swim in the ocean and eat pineapples, or people who climb sand dunes and eat cactus fruit? 

I don't have any kind of data to point to about this, but I find it likely that having more kinds of stories makes it easier to tell stories about yourself. Even if you don't have tropes to fall back on, if you see variety in depictions, you know variety is possible, and that makes it easier to create.

Personally, I don't really care about representing any one real-world group. That's not my specific goal as a writer. I simply have stories I want to tell, and using different kinds of people helps me tell them more easily. But I don't think it's a complete waste to write about times and places that never were and never will be.

ETA: For what it's worth, I'm counting Americans as a real-world group. Some of my stories have no characters who could really be considered representative of a "white" audience, because representing them wasn't my goal.


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## Ankari (Oct 23, 2014)

I've read every post after mine and I haven't seen a clear definition of diversity. Allow me to separate a few aspects of diversity for better processing. I'll keep this to the fantasy genre.

*Racial*

Calls for racial diversity in fantasy revolve around two principles:

1) Include racial diversity.
2) Don't use demeaning races as placeholders for people of color.

*Diverse Cast*

Does simply using an adjective to describe a skin color satisfy this call? If I edit a story featuring a cast of white people and change a few to different colors, are those who call for cast diversity happy?

To me, this is a superficial demand. Races are defined by their experiences. A black man born in Nigeria will identify differently with race than a black man born in Jamaica. I will speak as an Arab in this, and I'm sure almost all races are the same. Arabs don't think of themselves as white, or even Arabic. They think along the lines of region. It's common to think of people from the "Peninsula" (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman), as different from the people of "The Land of the Sun" (Palestine, Lebonan, Syria, and parts of Jordan), the Yeman, the North Africa, etc. If I read a book with a character based on Berber culture, I'd be as distant from that character as John O'keefe from Ireland.

So, *does superficial racial considerations appease those who call for diversified casts?*

*Placeholder Races*

I've read the same concerns as everyone else. "This ficticious race is X race." While the concern is valid, I have a hard time realizing them. I've yet to read a fantasy novel where I've said "Ah ha! This writer has taken X race and given them tusks, makes them drink blood, and are violent! What a scumbag!"

I have read many fantasy novels and said "Ah ha! This race exemplifies X human condition. How intriguing that I see parts of humanity here, and parts of humanity there!"

How much of these accusations created to fling dirt and see what sticks? What is said of those who actually see the similarities in a ficticious race with real races, especially when the ficticious race is derogatory?

*Fantasy and Race*

I've always believed that fantasy is a cover authors use to dispense loftier ideas, stories that capsulate humanity and all its fears and hopes. You can see this in the symbol of the dragon as a great evil and the (human) knight that vanquishes it through struggle. Such themes are in all stories (that I've read), even in the classic sword and sorcery tales of Conan.

Only after I joined this forum did I become introduced to the concept of placeholder races. Just for clarification, I am Arabic. My race/culture is the hate-flavor of the decade. We endure descrimination with little to no justice day in and day out. It has become popular and socially acceptable to demonize my people.

And I still don't see racial metaphors in fantasy. Why does everyone else?

*Gender*

An oft repeated advice is to write a story regardless of gender. A woman will think just like a man. Etc, etc.

I find this perplexing and simplistic. People are the result of their experiences. This applies to gender as well. Someone made a comment that, as a man, he tends to protect/save girls/women in video games because that is his instinct. Taking that thought further, this implies that gender influences the behavior of others. A man will endure different treatment than women, and vice versa. If experiences shape people, than doesn't the behaviours of others shape you? Do you (second person) not identify certain experiences with gender? Do you not become aware of what your gender means to the world at large and how best to use it to survive/advance?

Writing the point of view of marginalized people isn't enough if we don't honor the truth of their experiences. Yes, writing a character as a man than placing breasts on the character may represent a small population of readers, but did it connect with all women? If a woman wrote a female character which showcases in depth understanding of _her_ experiences, wouldn't this better represent the female audience? To say that there shouldn't be a difference between a male author and female author writing a female character is false. There is a difference precisely because one has far more intimate knowledge of the character than the other.

I have read female authors (with considerable thanks to the Mythic Scribes Book Club). I recall a question brought up about knowing when a book is written by a woman instead of a man. Have you noticed the difference? Didn't the female author represent the female characters better than the male characters and vice versa with the male authors? Isn't reading quality character portrayal better for diversity than the sheer number of characters with breasts attached to a bland character?


I've been writing this reply for too long....

Thanks for reading.


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## Mythopoet (Oct 23, 2014)

I only write fantasy. So for me, personally, I feel absolutely no need to portray anything as it is in the real world. I feel absolutely no need to adhere to what the real world calls "diversity". I just write stories that I would want to read and draw inspiration from all the stuff that I like. Of course, what I happen to be most inspired by are various real world mythologies from such places as Egypt, Greece, Mesopotamia, India, Japan, Ireland, Wales, and Finland. Many elements from these mythologies are mixed and blended into something I hope is somewhat unique. 

I don't pay a lot of attention to the superficial physical characteristics of the people in my world. (And when I do I often favor combinations that are not natural to anyone in our world. Like brown skin and silver hair. Probably because I'm an anime fan.) What interests me a lot more are worldviews, belief systems and ways of thinking. When I research a mythology, these are the things I am looking for. 

For instance, while researching Egyptian mythology I discovered how trivial most of the things that are taught in school about it, or are commonly known through popular culture, are. I read several books by Egyptologist Jan Assmann that delved deeply into the beliefs of the ancient Egyptians (I highly recommend in particular "In Search of God in Ancient Egypt" and "Death and Salvation in Ancient Egypt".) as well as reading translations of as much genuine Egyptian literature as I could find. By reading the Egyptians' actual words I felt I came closest to understanding them. Their highly unique ways of thinking and viewing the world have become the foundation of my fantasy world. And at first I didn't intend to have any pyramid type structures because I thought that would scream Egypt too loudly, but eventually I came to realize how symbolic the pyramid is of many Old Kingdom beliefs. Sometimes the physical reality is linked strongly with a deeper, spiritual reality. Those are the physical things worth keeping. 

I'm working on a story that is partially inspired by The Odyssey and The Argonautica. At first, when drawing up a cast of characters, I was basing them on various Argonauts. But the list of Argonauts who actually do something interesting in the story is shorter than the number of crew members I wanted to have (16, for reasons). So I started taking characters from other Greek myths. Then I realized that it was going to get difficult to keep 16 Greek characters straight, especially since some of the ones I liked best had similar names (Makelo and Meleaker, for instance). I decided it would be a lot more interesting if I switched out some of the Greek figures with figures inspired from other mythologies that would come from other parts of my fantasy world. These could be characters that were met during the quest and added to the crew. So instead of the sons of Boreas and Castor and Pollux I included Fujin and Raijin from Japanese myth and Nasat and Dasra from Vedic myth. Instead of Orpheus I have Vaino from Vainamoinen of Finnish myth. Not only does this make my characters more interesting but it also helps me avoid more commonly known mythic names. 

But I have never done anything with "diversity" in mind. I have only tried to create something that I would like to read based on all the things I am interested in. And I have no expectations except that I hope others who are interested in the same things might find it one day and read it and like it as well. I think this is the only responsibility an individual writer really has.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 23, 2014)

Ankari said:


> Does simply using an adjective to describe a skin color satisfy this call? If I edit a story featuring a cast of white people and change a few to different colors, are those who call for cast diversity happy?
> 
> To me, this is a superficial demand. Races are defined by their experiences. A black man born in Nigeria will identify differently with race than a black man born in Jamaica. I will speak as an Arab in this, and I'm sure almost all races are the same. Arabs don't think of themselves as white, or even Arabic. They think along the lines of region. It's common to think of people from the "Peninsula" (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman), as different from the people of "The Land of the Sun" (Palestine, Lebonan, Syria, and parts of Jordan), the Yeman, the North Africa, etc. If I read a book with a character based on Berber culture, I'd be as distant from that character as John O'keefe from Ireland.
> 
> So, *does superficial racial considerations appease those who call for diversified casts?*


For what it's worth, I don't consider myself on the team of "calling for diversified casts", at least not in the sense of pressuring other writers to squeeze in this or that marginalized group. I'm more on the team of writing whatever personally interests me. This probably makes me unqualified to gauge exactly what is an acceptable level of diversity.

But I would be lying if racial themes, which is one subset of diversity themes, didn't interest me at all. I notice that a lot of the stories I've worked on recently are centered around those themes. "Cultural Contamination" brings up the topic of cultural exchange between different races (or "cultural appropriation" as some would call it). "The Sun Queen's New Hairstyle" was inspired by the whole tension over "good hair" in African/Afro-Diasporan communities. And now I have a short historical fiction in the works premised on the observation that lactose intolerance is more prevalent among Asian and African people than Europeans. In all these examples, race isn't merely a cosmetic choice of adjectives. It forms the core of their narratives.

I should note that these concepts don't all have oppression as a backdrop, except maybe in the case of "Cultural Contamination". The Sun Queen story, for instance, actually came about when I asked myself the question, "How would African people with an advanced and affluent civilization evaluate artificially straightened hair?" The lactose intolerance story is about a speculative attempt on Attila the Hun's life. I don't believe you need this world's oppressive hierarchies to consider how populations with different phenotypes might regard those differences.

To sum up my position, write what you want.


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## Steerpike (Oct 23, 2014)

Ankari said:


> I find this perplexing and simplistic. People are the result of their experiences. This applies to gender as well.



The problem, in my view, is you're thinking in terms of statistical distributions, whereas characters are individuals. As a statistical probability, maybe you can say men are more likely to do X, Y, or Z, but there are always outliers and exceptions, so the whole thing falls apart as applied to any given individual. I know women who would more likely react like average (statistically) males in any given situation, and men whose reactions are going to be closer to the statistical prediction for females. 

Since your character is an individual and not a statistical representation of sex or gender norms across the whole of society (or, more specifically, western society), you don't gain much, and potentially lose a lot, if your starting point is "well, this is a women, how's is she going to react?" Whether male or female, your character's reactions are dictated by their individuality, not a statistical likelihood. That's the starting place, not some idea of how a person of a given sex should respond.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 23, 2014)

Let's revisit my counter example from earlier.



Svrtnsse said:


> I'm currently working on a scene where my male lead is spending some time alone with The Woman of the story.
> Neither of these characters are human - they're anfylk (not exactly, but sort of, like hobbits).
> The woman is wearing a garment that leaves most of her legs bare and my MC is getting really excited about the fine blonde fur on her legs.
> So, I have a non-human race and there's a certain level of arousal based on something that's not normally considered arousing in contemporary real-world pop-culture. Sure, it might be a little original and a little bit different, but in the end it's not actual an example of some kind of diversity in the sense we're discussing in this thread (and out of context like this it probably just sounds weird).
> ...



Something I've commented at before, and which Ankari also brings up, is that our experiences shape our personalities. How we are treated, and how we're used to being treated, shapes how we react.
The situation I describe above mentions almost nothing about that (except the arousal part, which is probably more an instinctive/primal reaction than a personality-based one). I can go a lot of different ways with my characters from there.

The woman in the example could be a sultry seductress in a little black dress, flaunting her attributes for the benefit of her male companion.
She could be a native from a culture where walking bare-legged is the natural state and she could be perplex by, or oblivious to, the man's reaction.
It's also possible she ended up garbed like that against her will and that she's feeling unsafe and awkward about her appearance in the company of a male.

Then there's the male's reactions:
Is he unashamedly drinking in the view as is he right to do as a man? After all, he's a healthy male with a healthy appetite for the good things in life.
Could it be he's upset and offended because the woman dares to tempt him and expose him to his darker desires? Does he feel she's leading him into damnation?
Perhaps he's embarrassed for starring and for making her feel awkward?

The above are some options I came up with on the top of my head. I'm sure there are plenty more I could think of if I put in more effort.

Any of the above options could work in combination with each other (more or less). Some combinations would resonate better with some readers than with others.
Some combinations I would approve of, others I wouldn't.

I think the important thing here is to stay true to the characters and show them reacting in ways that agree with how they've reacted in the past. The reactions have to be believable within the context of the story.

But, even then, they won't be believable to everyone. Some readers may not be able to identify with my MC at all, or relate to the woman in the scene. Perhaps my portrayal of the characters isn't good enough, or perhaps the story I'm writing just isn't for them.

What's this got to do with diversity then?
I think it's about taking a potentially loaded situation and describing it in a way that readers can relate to, regardless of gender (race isn't a factor in this context). I want the woman in the scene to react in a way that's believable even to female readers and I want the male to react as a male might plausibly do.

For reference, here's the relevant section of the scene. I haven't had it proofread by anyone yet and after having talked up my intentions like this, I'm no longer very confident that the end result lives up to them.



Spoiler: Those furry legs...



Note: Amanda changed into the sweater as her dress got completely soaked by rain.


> “How's it going?” said Amanda.
> “Fine. Nearly done I think, it's not that bad - just wet really.” Enar lifted his head, dropped his jaw, and stared.
> Amanda stood by the wall to the stables, wearing her red sweater — and only that, as far as he could see. Big and loose fitting, it reached just below her butt and left her legs completely bare.
> Enar stared.
> ...


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## Jamber (Oct 24, 2014)

There's a moment in Terry Pratchett's _Going Postal_ where schoolmarmish Miss Maccalariat bowls into Moist's office to ask: 'Do we "embrace divertingly"?' She means 'embrace diversity', but Pratchett gently lampoons both ideas.

Ultimately telling writers to embrace diversity is like asking a twenty-something male postmaster to embrace middle aged Miss Maccalariat. As a middle aged woman I can feel tickled by that idea. But I'm glad nobody told Pratchett he _had_ to do it.

I truly think fiction is the one form where, if you want diversity, the answer is to write it yourself. (That's the entrepreneurial approach: what the mainstream overlooks becomes my niche.) But it's also achievable. Novels take little money to produce; anyone with flair can write them. Best of all, anyone with flair can become famous packaging diversity. Look at gender in _2312_. Look at ethnicity in China Mieville.

What makes some novels get picked up and mass marketed via huge injections of advertising funds is a separate issue, and all wrapped up in hegemony (like the 'staff best pick' that convinced me to buy _Gone Girl_, which has among the most misogynistic of female representations in recent years). My view is, let's critique that.


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## Feo Takahari (Oct 24, 2014)

Ankari said:


> People are the result of their experiences. This applies to gender as well. Someone made a comment that, as a man, he tends to protect/save girls/women in video games because that is his instinct. Taking that thought further, this implies that gender influences the behavior of others. A man will endure different treatment than women, and vice versa. If experiences shape people, than doesn't the behaviours of others shape you? Do you (second person) not identify certain experiences with gender? Do you not become aware of what your gender means to the world at large and how best to use it to survive/advance?
> 
> Writing the point of view of marginalized people isn't enough if we don't honor the truth of their experiences. Yes, writing a character as a man than placing breasts on the character may represent a small population of readers, but did it connect with all women? If a woman wrote a female character which showcases in depth understanding of _her_ experiences, wouldn't this better represent the female audience? To say that there shouldn't be a difference between a male author and female author writing a female character is false. There is a difference precisely because one has far more intimate knowledge of the character than the other.
> 
> I have read female authors (with considerable thanks to the Mythic Scribes Book Club). I recall a question brought up about knowing when a book is written by a woman instead of a man. Have you noticed the difference? Didn't the female author represent the female characters better than the male characters and vice versa with the male authors? Isn't reading quality character portrayal better for diversity than the sheer number of characters with breasts attached to a bland character?



Point of argument: who here even remembers that I'm biologically male? It's not like I make a big secret of it. People just think I'm female because apparently men don't write like this.

(Then again, I don't think I've ever written a truly masculine character, so maybe that actually supports your point. I'm still writing what I know.)

Edit: Come to think of it, you refer to "female authors" as if you're not one yourself. I can't claim much familiarity with your writing, but I haven't seen anything obviously gendered in your style--there's nothing about it that would make me say "This was written by a man!" or "This was written by a woman!"


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## Trick (Oct 24, 2014)

Feo Takahari said:


> ... there's nothing about it that would make me say "This was written by a man!" or "This was written by a woman!"



I think that the better a writer gets, the less they show though in their own writing and this includes gender as well. 

I've read female authors and not had it enter my mind that it mattered whether the author was male or female from start to finish. I've also read female authors and thought, "this is simply not how men think." The problem with that is not that I become offended, not in the slightest; the problem is that I'm pulled out of the book and lose interest. And not everyone would have felt that way about it so the author's portrayal and my understanding/experience might simply not mesh.

On the flip side, I've read male authors and seen that their female characters were as stiff and flat as high quality cardboard. Boring!

Gender is just one of many factors that color a person's writing and reading. For some it may be a driving force and for others much less so. It still has to be counted as an affecting part of a person's overall personality.


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## Steerpike (Oct 24, 2014)

Trick said:


> I think that the better a writer gets, the less they show though in their own writing and this includes gender as well.



I wonder.

I heard a well-respected author on NPR yesterday talking about how, in great literature, the author is always present. That tends to be my view as well. My favorite stories, whether in fantasy or literary fiction, are such that I could tell you who wrote it just by reading a bit of it, based solely on the author's "voice."

To me, writing that lacks a distinctive "voice" is generic, and while I read that stuff as well if it is well done, it is not my favorite.


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## Trick (Oct 24, 2014)

Steerpike said:


> My favorite stories, whether in fantasy or literary fiction, are such that I could tell you who wrote it just by reading a bit of it, based solely on the author's "voice."



I suppose a better way to say it is that the better a writer gets, the less their flaws show through. Their biases, failings and insufficiencies. An author's voice hopefully doesn't include poor characterization or just an obvious inability to represent characters different from themselves.


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## Steerpike (Oct 24, 2014)

Trick said:


> I suppose a better way to say it is that the better a writer gets, the less their flaws show through. Their biases, failings and insufficiencies. An author's voice hopefully doesn't include poor characterization or just an obvious inability to represent characters different from themselves.



Can't argue with that


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## Legendary Sidekick (Oct 24, 2014)

Steerpike said:


> Can't argue with that


When Steerpike can't argue with an opinion, the opinion is promoted to "fact."


@Svrtnsse, cute scene! Thanks for sharing! I loved the reaction of the girl as well as the POV guy.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 26, 2014)

So I went over what I'd written last night, and I decided to change something, just for the sake of adding a little bit of diversity into it. Not because it's needed or because it matters, but only and exclusively for the sake of "increasing diversity" (whatever that means).

Original sentence:


> “Yes!” Crumbs sprayed everywhere. “I'll have to call my secretary and have her draw up an invoice.” She covered her mouth and giggled.



New version:


> “Yes!” Crumbs sprayed everywhere. “I'll have to call my secretary and have him draw up an invoice.” She covered her mouth and giggled.



It's a really minor change, and it doesn't have any impact whatsoever on the story. Yet, I'm worried. Will this really small and insignificant change pull the reader out of the story and cause them to make a mental note of it, or will they just gloss it over like (I imagine) they'd have done if I'd kept the original version?

It's the kind of thing I'll have to remember to ask specifically about, because I doubt anyone would admit to stumbling on it.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 26, 2014)

I once did daydream about a male secretary character who worked for the President of the United States, who was also the woman he loved. He had to defend her from a CIA coup that broke into the White House to assassinate her. Not sure if such a scenario would be remotely plausible in our world, but it seemed an awesome idea at the time.


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## Graylorne (Oct 27, 2014)

Svrtnsse said:


> So I went over what I'd written last night, and I decided to change something, just for the sake of adding a little bit of diversity into it. Not because it's needed or because it matters, but only and exclusively for the sake of "increasing diversity" (whatever that means).
> 
> Original sentence:
> 
> ...




If you do it only once, it could give an impression of special meaning. Just do it a few times more, and it adds authenticity. A female taxi driver, a male nurse, they exist after all.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Oct 27, 2014)

There was a great line on last night's Boardwalk Empire. Joe Kennedy in an outraged tone told Margaret Thompson that there are three things in the world he finds difficult to understand: "The work of the bees, the movements of the tide and the mind of a woman."

Margaret smiled and said, "Here is an experiment for you. Think about the things you want in life, then picture yourself in a dress."


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