# Dragonslaying



## wordwalker (Sep 25, 2012)

One of the most fun things about fantasy is being just realistic enough to get characters into _serious_ trouble. Such as creating a monster that's simply too massive to exist, and then still have to look for the physically best ways to stand up to it. So here, with spoilers from across fiction, is:

NINE WAYS TO KILL A DRAGON


Poison — the simplest method, if you can get enough into the dragon. Best example: Tanith Lee's short story "Draco, Draco," where a sacrificial maiden poisoned herself before offering herself to the dragon.
Magic — some wizards might actually be stronger than the dragon, or at least know its weakness. Best example: Ursula K. LeGuin's _A Wizard Of Earthsea_, where Ged defeats young dragons through paralysis spells, immature dragons by fighting in dragon form, and their father by using his true name against him.
Archery — the very best archer might be able to hit the eye, ear, or traditional "secret weak point in its armor." Best example: J.R.R. Tolkien's _The Hobbit_, where Bard the Bowman shoots Smaug's weak spot as he flies over the town.
Ballistas — clumsy but powerful, if you can hit. Best example: the SciFi Channel movie _Dragon Star_, involving a team sent out with a wheeled ballista (with gunpowder bombs attached for good measure... well, they can't all be classics).
Rockfall — even clumsier but worth trying to set up. Best example: Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman's _Dragonlance: Dragons of Winter Night_, where a dragon is lured into a tower for gates to slam onto its head, trapping it to be finished off.
Lance — an ordinary knight has some extraordinary momentum with warhorse, knight, and armor mass focused on a lance point. Best example: Gordon R. Dickson's _The Dragon And The George_ explains just how powerful a lance charge is.
Axe — if it has to be a straight fight against something that tough, "Any fool who'd go after a dragon with a sword…"  Best example: Barbara Hambly's _Dragonsbane_, source of the quote and also uses with poisoned harpoons.
Jump on the head — for true daredevils or the desperate only. (Variation: wait for it to bite at you and then try to stab that head.) Best example: the anime series _Record Of Lodoss War_.
Dragon-Slaying Weapon — deus ex machina. Best example: Fred Saberhagen's _Books of Swords_ series includes the god-forged sword Dragonslicer, allowing half-trained peasants to become professional dragon-hunters.

So: have I missed anything?


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## CupofJoe (Sep 26, 2012)

A great list - Wordwalker.
A bigger Dragon? but that doesn't really answer the problem....


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## Zero Angel (Sep 26, 2012)

I also enjoyed the poisoning in "Dealing with Dragons" by Patricia C. Wrede. Dragonsbane in your coffee anyone?

I've also seen some dragons die when their "fireproofing" is damaged (whether this is a rupture in their bodies or magickal or whatever), the effect is explosive! ...or just fiery, but still cool. It's pretty bad when your own nature kills you


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## srcroft (Sep 26, 2012)

I would say a few more: 
-Weak or loosened scale. 
-Swallowing a black powder explosive or chemical (alcohol) to act as a catalyst with its own fire.
-Open mouth, brain attack (no suggested lol) -- not safe.
-Another Dragon in your control.
-Using its own weight against it (Judo) generating enough force to do damage.
-Leak in the fire bladder--not good--for the dragon.
-Drowning. Chains and weights and a lake << That's an S.R.Croft original idea. lol


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## shangrila (Sep 26, 2012)

How about just shooting it with a grenado/black powder charge? They do it in a later Malazan book and it blows a house sized crater into it's gut.


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## srcroft (Sep 26, 2012)

Depends on your Dragon. Some have their scales be harder then diamonds, therefore, you need weapons with dragon claws in it or bones. Now if you had a grenado with dragon bone shrapnel--that would work. If you just look at them like a big lizard, then they can go down pretty easy. Heck you get them cold, and Bam 60 degrees = death. Lizards = coldblooded. I have a Bearded Dragon. Most of that logic is ignored, making them more like hairless mammals.


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## Saigonnus (Sep 26, 2012)

Drizzt Do'Urden and Wulfgar slew a white dragon by dropping a massive icicle through it's back in the first of the Icewind Dale Trilogy.... works every time XD


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## Butterfly (Sep 27, 2012)

In Fire and Ice (Not GRRM - But this one Fire and Ice: The Dragon Chronicles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) - Not a brill film by any means, but they had an interesting way of killing dragons.

An Ice dragon was unleashed to kill a fire dragon. They fought, and ice won, which solved the problem of the fire dragon, but left Ice dragon alive to kill everything that survived the fire dragon. To kill the Ice dragon took a bit more work (on the human side of things). A hero, lured it into a salt mine, and the salt melted the ice dragon, thereby killing it.


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## srcroft (Sep 27, 2012)

LMAO HAHAHAHA That would work for Slug Dragons too. Very creative, you could have had them fight near the sea and get trapped in salt water. Very creative, I love it.


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## Devor (Sep 27, 2012)

Ram it with a flying ship.  Seduce it with an exploding female dragon decoy.  Tie up all the maidens in the kingdom and leave them struggling every two hundred feet in a line leading to the tripwire for a giant anvil.  Trick it into attackinflg your enemy army so that they can kill it for you.


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## Sheilawisz (Sep 27, 2012)

I heard a story about a peasant that invented a creative way to kill a dragon:

He took a dead goat and filled it with lead, so when the dragon ate the goat and tried to shoot fire at the peasant, the lead melted instantly and the molten lead burned the dragon's body from inside...

Another idea would be to put the dragon under a Sleeping Charm (like Fleur did in Harry Potter!) and keep it sleeping until it becomes very weak from lack of activity and food... and then, you kill it =)


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## Christopher Wright (Sep 27, 2012)

I suggest getting it to fly after you. Then you paint a tunnel on the side of the mountain, and as it's flying after you at full speed you run into the tunnel to escape. The dragon, of course, will smash into the painting. Because it's a painting.

And while it's sitting beside the painting of the tunnel, little birds and stars whirling around its head, have a train rush out of the tunnel to run it over.


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## Steerpike (Sep 27, 2012)

Just make sure you get you use Acme[SUP]TM[/SUP] Tunnel Paint. That's the only brand that is really effective and allows the tunnel painter to run into the tunnel.


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## Christopher Wright (Sep 27, 2012)

Actually, Acme Tunnel Paint rarely lets you run into the tunnel. It usually lets the other guy run into the tunnel. Acme products have a tendency to (literally) blow up in the purchaser's face...


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## Steerpike (Sep 27, 2012)

That's a good point. You'd think Wile E. might have ditched that company in favor of someone else after a few dozen product failures. Either that, or get a good attorney - there's strict liability for product design defects, I think, and he could probably get a settlement out of Acme and then order a roasted road runner.


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## Christopher Wright (Sep 27, 2012)

He was pretty smart for a coyote, but he was still only a coyote.


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## Butterfly (Sep 27, 2012)

srcroft said:


> LMAO HAHAHAHA That would work for Slug Dragons too. Very creative, you could have had them fight near the sea and get trapped in salt water. Very creative, I love it.



Great big giant Slug Dragons... wow... I'm having visions of fully armoured knights covered in slimy snot, sliding about all over the place, dripping with it after finally being able to stand in awkward poses, whilst wondering which girl they can flick it at next.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Sep 27, 2012)

wordwalker said:


> Poison – the simplest method, if you can get enough into the dragon. Best example: Tanith Lee's short story "Draco, Draco," where a sacrificial maiden poisoned herself before offering herself to the dragon.



The problem with this idea is that dragons are typically very large, meaning you are going to need a lot of very potent poison to inconveniance one. Kinda like in the second Jurassic Park movie, where they use an insanely dangerous neurotoxin just to tranquilize the dinosaurs.

As a general rule, I'm doing to say that anything that couldn't realistically take down an elephant probably isn't going to work on a dragon either.



> Magic – some wizards might actually be stronger than the dragon, or at least know its weakness. Best example: Ursula K. LeGuin's _A Wizard Of Earthsea_, where Ged defeats young dragons through paralysis spells, immature dragons by fighting in dragon form, and their father by using his true name against him.



Also depends a bit on the type of dragon. Some aren't even sapient, let alone capable of casting spells.



> Archery – the very best archer might be able to hit the eye, ear, or traditional "secret weak point in its armor." Best example: J.R.R. Tolkien's _The Hobbit_, where Bard the Bowman shoots Smaug's weak spot as he flies over the town.



I sorta doubt a bow is really going to do much to a dragon. It's actually surprisingly hard to kill something human-sized with a bow and arrow (as in, you can survive for hours with an arrow sticking out of your chest) let alone a giant flying reptile.

And it's not really about the dragon having impenetrable scales, either - again, it's about size. Even if you hit a "vital" area, something as big as your average fantasy dragon is probably just going to be annoyed by it. 

The Hobbit gets kind of a pass on this, because it was implied to have been a magic arrow.



> Ballistas – clumsy but powerful, if you can hit. Best example: the SciFi Channel movie _Dragon Star_, involving a team sent out with a wheeled ballista (with gunpowder bombs attached for good measure... well, they can't all be classics).
> 
> Rockfall – even clumsier but worth trying to set up. Best example: Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman's _Dragonlance: Dragons of Winter Night_, where a dragon is lured into a tower for gates to slam onto its head, trapping it to be finished off.



Frankly, this is probably the most realistic approach. Hit them with something big and very damaging.



> [*]Lance – an ordinary knight has some extraordinary momentum with warhorse, knight, and armor mass focused on a lance point. Best example: Gordon R. Dickson's _The Dragon And The George_ explains just how powerful a lance charge is.



Problem is that the dragon must be grounded, on terrain where a cavalry charge is feasable, and not spewing fire at the knight in question.



> Axe – if it has to be a straight fight against something that tough, "Any fool who'd go after a dragon with a sword…"  Best example: Barbara Hambly's _Dragonsbane_, source of the quote and also uses with poisoned harpoons.



Honestly, it probably doesn't matter wether you have an axe or a sword. Plenty of swords could deliver very damaging cuts, and they also function as piercing weapons, meaning deeper wounds which is important when fighting a very large creature. 

But more importantly, if you are hardcore enough to engage a dragon in melee, I say you can use whatever weapons you feel like using.



> Jump on the head – for true daredevils or the desperate only.



I-a see what-a you did there.



> Dragon-Slaying Weapon – deus ex machina. Best example: Fred Saberhagen's _Books of Swords_ series includes the god-forged sword Dragonslicer, allowing half-trained peasants to become professional dragon-hunters.



I'd go a step further and say that any magical weapon capable of causing sufficient damage could be used against a dragon.



srcroft said:


> Depends on your Dragon. Some have their scales be harder then diamonds, therefore, you need weapons with dragon claws in it or bones.



I never understood why something like a dragon should have a weakness against its own body parts. Even if dragon claws are made out of some kind of unbreakable super-keratin, the reason they are dangerous is that they are _attached to a dragon_. Even if you had a dragon claw, and even if dragon claws can penetrate dragon scales, that doesn't make you physically strong enough to pull that off. 



Devor said:


> Ram it with a flying ship.  Seduce it with an exploding female dragon decoy.  Tie up all the maidens in the kingdom and leave them struggling every two hundred feet in a line leading to the tripwire for a giant anvil.



Wile E. Coyote: Dragonslayer.



Sheilawisz said:


> I heard a story about a peasant that invented a creative way to kill a dragon:
> 
> He took a dead goat and filled it with lead, so when the dragon ate the goat and tried to shoot fire at the peasant, the lead melted instantly and the molten lead burned the dragon's body from inside...



And interesting idea, though it presume that the dragon generates its firebreath in its stomach.



> Another idea would be to put the dragon under a Sleeping Charm (like Fleur did in Harry Potter!) and keep it sleeping until it becomes very weak from lack of activity and food... and then, you kill it =)



I'd put this under the general "use magic" option.



Christopher Wright said:


> I suggest getting it to fly after you. Then you paint a tunnel on the side of the mountain, and as it's flying after you at full speed you run into the tunnel to escape. The dragon, of course, will smash into the painting. Because it's a painting.
> 
> And while it's sitting beside the painting of the tunnel, little birds and stars whirling around its head, have a train rush out of the tunnel to run it over.



Wile E.Coyote: Dragonslayer II - Them's the Drakes!



Steerpike said:


> That's a good point. You'd think Wile E. might have ditched that company in favor of someone else after a few dozen product failures. Either that, or get a good attorney - there's strict liability for product design defects, I think, and he could probably get a settlement out of Acme and then order a roasted road runner.



Actually, there's this interesting theory postulating that he doesn't actually buy Acme products - he's their _beta tester._ 

That explains why he seems to get faulty products half the time and never uses the same gadget twice, even the ones that might actually have worked with more precautions or preparations.


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## wordwalker (Sep 28, 2012)

Agreed; pretty much any dragonslaying method is going to be either unreliable or relies on some exotic power.

My list is actually a trimmed-down version of a piece I wrote a while back, that has some similar notes on how tricky most of these can get. Poison, for instance, really does need a lot of power and volume --or specialized "dragonsbane" stuff that's halfway to deus ex machina again-- and another problem is that you may need it to work on weapons, since a lot of dragons have enhanced senses that can spot poisoned bait. (See _The Hobbit_ again, or remember that the root word "drakon" meant sharp-eyed, as in perfect treasure-watchers.)

In retrospect I had one idea that probably counts as a separate tenth method: "a bigger dragon" or other monster. It might mean magic, it might mean raising the beast and training it or being able to strike a bargain with it-- or it might be luring one dragon into another's territory. (Then you sell popcorn and package it up as the next Godzilla movie...)



Anders Ã„mting said:


> Actually, there's this interesting theory postulating that he doesn't actually buy Acme products - he's their _beta tester._
> 
> That explains why he seems to get faulty products half the time and never uses the same gadget twice, even the ones that might actually have worked with more precautions or preparations.



That is *the* best single explanation I've ever heard. Especially if you combine it with the revelation they dropped that time Wile E. tried putting on a Girl Road-Runner Disguise: that the desert has *hundreds* of identical coyotes, one hiding behind every rock and cactus. So each product goes to a new coyote, and usually obliterates him and then the next one goes to the next coyote in line... (And remember that note in the corner of the Acme blueprints: "Acme, a division of Road-Runner Industries.)

And we thought dragons were dangerous...


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## Devor (Sep 28, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> Frankly, this is probably the most realistic approach. Hit them with something big and very damaging.



I'm in complete agreement that, short of magic or gunpowder, the Ballista is the way to go.  I was originally thinking "Harpoon Gun," like you'd use to bring down a whale, and then I remembered that he had listed ballistas and figured there wasn't really a difference.

You'd have to either strike a weak point - not just a chink in the armor, but also a point where the vital organs are near the surface - or strike deep enough to pierce those vitals anyways.  So in a nutshell, either use a long thrusting weapon or strike the head.  I think the wings might also be vulnerable depending on the situation.


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## Butterfly (Sep 28, 2012)

A hail of arrows to rip through the wings and ground the brute... then charge the ballistae in to close quarters (need lots of these), then 'FIRE!!!' the captain cried. 'Send it to OBLIVION!!!'


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## Zero Angel (Sep 28, 2012)

Has anyone mentioned dragonshouts from Skyrim yet?

THAT is the way the dovahkiin kills dragons.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Sep 28, 2012)

Zero Angel said:


> Has anyone mentioned dragonshouts from Skyrim yet?
> 
> THAT is the way the dovahkiin kills dragons.



This files under "use magic", basically.


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## Shockley (Sep 28, 2012)

The Bellerophon myth is unique in how he kills the chimera - he throws his lance directly at the middle head (which is breathing fire) - the head is made of lead, so it scalds and chokes the chimera to death.

 Outside of that, my favorite method was in Pratchett's 'Guards! Guards!' The Night Watch decide to shoot down the dragon. They understand that thousand-to-one odds always succeed in Discworld, so they go about making their situation worse than it already is. They pick their worst archer, force him to stand on one leg and bend over before shooting. (Despite that, the odds are only 999-to-1. Hilarity ensues, natch.)


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## Zero Angel (Sep 28, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> This files under "use magic", basically.



I wasn't trying to classify it...just saying it was awesome


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## Mindfire (Sep 28, 2012)

Also this:


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## Mindfire (Sep 28, 2012)

And this:


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## psychotick (Sep 30, 2012)

Hi,

I don't think I'd rate the ballista method at all. Against a moving target they'd be pretty poor, and against a flying one, worse. And as for melee weapons, well that's one way to get eaten. 

However in one of mine I did use an archer, I just gave the arrow a few magical properties. In another that I haven't finished, I turned an ordinary arrow into the equivalent of a cruise missile. That would be my way to fight a dragon. Think range, rapid fire and staying out of the way of their teeth and fire. Preferably firing from a protected location.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Devor (Sep 30, 2012)

psychotick said:


> I don't think I'd rate the ballista method at all. Against a moving target they'd be pretty poor, and against a flying one, worse.



Have you ever been to a shooting range?  It isn't hard to shoot a moving taget, even a flying one, if you know how to adjust your aim for the movements.  It's called "leading" the target.  Ballistas can be extremely maneuverable, and the Romans had ballistas that shot with tremendous accuracy.  And a dragon is a big target.  Hitting one with a ballista?  Not so difficult as you might think.


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## Mindfire (Sep 30, 2012)

psychotick said:


> Think range, rapid fire and staying out of the way of their teeth and fire. Preferably firing from a protected location.



Unless you're the Dragonborn, in which case rules no longer apply.


Ok, no more Skyrim jokes. Promise. But Psychotick makes a good point. Ordinary humans have zero chance at taking a dragon head-on. So you have three options: use an unconventional dragon, use an extraordinary hero, or have the hero kill the dragon using stealth, ingenuity, and as much firepower as he can muster.


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## Zero Angel (Sep 30, 2012)

Devor said:


> Have you ever been to a shooting range?  It isn't hard to shoot a moving taget, even a flying one, if you know how to adjust your aim for the movements.  It's called "leading" the target.  Ballistas can be extremely maneuverable, and the Romans had ballistas that shot with tremendous accuracy.  And a dragon is a big target.  Hitting one with a ballista?  Not so difficult as you might think.



I think the issue at hand here might be that most people think of Warcraft II ballista when they think of ballista and not just, you know, a standing powerful crossbow. 

The ballista I have experience with do not fire real ballista bolts, but they are very inaccurate. I would expect a real ballista to be extremely accurate due to increased power and aerodynamics of the bolt. At least as accurate as a crossbow.


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## Zero Angel (Sep 30, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Ok, no more Skyrim jokes. Promise. But Psychotick makes a good point. Ordinary humans have zero chance at taking a dragon head-on. So you have three options: use an unconventional dragon, use an extraordinary hero, or have the hero kill the dragon using stealth, ingenuity, and as much firepower as he can muster.



I write superhero fantasy, so extraordinary heroes all the way. But some of my short stories delve into other genres, so I'm down with a normal hume taking down a dragon with stealth, ingenuity and as much firepower as possible.


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## psychotick (Sep 30, 2012)

Hi Devor,

Actually in my opinion the ancient ballistae were of questionable effect. They were neither siege engines which could be devastating against a stationary target such as a fortification, nor bows which could be quickly aimed and fired at an oncomming enemy. But the Romans when they conquored the Greeks did a lot of work with them to make them superior weapons. 

They would have had some value against an enemy army, where the target is essentially enormous because it's dispersed. This value was further enhanced by replacing the heavy darts and stones they could fire with shot. But shot would be of little effect against an armoured creature such as a dragon. And they were said to be very accurate and have a longer range than other weapons of their day. But the longer the range, the longer the time to impact, and the more you need your target to either be still or maintain a predictable course. To my mind their most useful role was as a shipboard weapon where they had the power to puncture hulls and the target was large and relatively slow to turn. I don't see either of these conditions applying to a dragon.

From memory many of the improvements the Romans made to ballistae were centred around making them smaller and lighter, and more mobile, culminating in the development of the scorpion. But smaller and lighter also makes them less powerful, and at some point the weapon would not longer be able to puncture the dragon's scales. The whole thing becomes a trade off between speed and accuracy and power.

Though it didn't come until far later, the longbow (especially the double recurved and later the compund versions) is in my view the champion of bow weapons, and probably the weapon I would choose to use against a dragon. And if you could have some fine steel tips, so much the better.

Cheers, Greg.


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## psychotick (Sep 30, 2012)

Hi Wordwalker,

Just thought of a tenth way, and though I can only think of it being used in Men in Black, I have a vague memory of it being used against dragons as well. Get swallowed whole by the beast, then cut your way out of its stomach. Of course the tricky part is making sure he doesn't chew!

Cheers, Greg.


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## Mindfire (Sep 30, 2012)

psychotick said:


> Hi Wordwalker,
> 
> Just thought of a tenth way, and though I can only think of it being used in Men in Black, I have a vague memory of it being used against dragons as well. Get swallowed whole by the beast, then cut your way out of its stomach. Of course the tricky part is making sure he doesn't chew!
> 
> Cheers, Greg.



If I recall, large reptilian predators like T. Rex didn't really chew, they tended to either swallow the prey whole, or shred it into large chunks and swallow _them_. My guess is a dragon would probably do the same. Better hope your dragon is the whole-swallowing kind and nothe shredding kind. And also that you can fight down it's throat. And that it's digestive juices don't kill you.


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## Devor (Sep 30, 2012)

psychotick said:


> They would have had some value against an enemy army, where the target is essentially enormous because it's dispersed. This value was further enhanced by replacing the heavy darts and stones they could fire with shot. But shot would be of little effect against an armoured creature such as a dragon. And they were said to be very accurate and have a longer range than other weapons of their day. But the longer the range, the longer the time to impact, and the more you need your target to either be still or maintain a predictable course. To my mind their most useful role was as a shipboard weapon where they had the power to puncture hulls and the target was large and relatively slow to turn. I don't see either of these conditions applying to a dragon.



Fair enough, but that's fairly textbook.  Range may mean a longer time to target, but it also means the target is less likely to be concerned with you.  A dependable movement path isn't that difficult requirement to meet - it's still only seconds, and dragons are a big target.

As for the longbow, it's a great weapon but I think it's been oversold.  While it can pierce chainmail with the right arrowhead, it did so by exploiting the weaknesses of chainmail.  The same arrowhead would probably be useless against scales, and I don't think the blunter arrowheads designed to break platemail would penetrate far enough into the dragon's skin to get your killing shot.  Breaking scales plus getting depth is a lot to accomplish with one shot - I don't think you can do it without the kind of force you can get with a ballista.

(edit) Blunt isn't the right word for platemail piercing arrows, but the point holds. I'm on the kindle or I'd look it up.


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## Jabrosky (Sep 30, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> If I recall, large reptilian predators like T. Rex didn't really chew, they tended to either swallow the prey whole, or shred it into large chunks and swallow _them_. My guess is a dragon would probably do the same. Better hope your dragon is the whole-swallowing kind and nothe shredding kind. And also that you can fight down it's throat. And that it's digestive juices don't kill you.


The incredibly awesome thing about tyrannosaurids, and most especially _Tyrannosaurus rex_, is that they had the most powerful jaws of any terrestrial carnivores (7,868 to 12,814 lbs of force for T. Rex). They may not have systematically masticated their food like we do, but their bites could easily shatter bone. If a dragon could bite you the way a T. Rex would, you would _really _be screwed.

By the way, as someone who loves the idea of people fighting large and dangerous animals, I'm grateful for a discussion like this.


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## Mindfire (Sep 30, 2012)

not the*

fit down its throat*


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## Richard Sutton (Dec 4, 2013)

wordwalker said:


> So: have I missed anything?



Yes. Simply overfed, they explode from the associated gastric issues that accompany fire breath, as in Terry Pratchett's Guards! Guards!


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## glutton (Dec 4, 2013)

Rose does it ole school, running through the dragon's breath with her sword style.

THE ROSY ONE.


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## psychotick (Dec 6, 2013)

Hi,

Been a while since I saw this thread, but here's another way. Saw it in one of the terrible D and D movies. Use magic to summon another dragon to fight it!

Cheers, Greg.


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## wordwalker (Dec 7, 2013)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> Been a while since I saw this thread, but here's another way. Saw it in one of the terrible D and D movies. Use magic to summon another dragon to fight it!
> 
> Cheers, Greg.



Almost as soon as I wrote this I started wishing I'd put it at 10 ways. Guess I was too in love with the Earthsea example, that treats dragon-form as just another subtype of magic attack.

A better example of that tenth method would of course be _How to Train Your Dragon_, but I'd give an honorable mention for any hero who simply lures one wild dragon into fighting another (all together: "and sells popcorn!").


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## SeverinR (Dec 10, 2013)

Devor said:


> Fair enough, but that's fairly textbook.  Range may mean a longer time to target, but it also means the target is less likely to be concerned with you.  A dependable movement path isn't that difficult requirement to meet - it's still only seconds, and dragons are a big target.
> 
> As for the longbow, it's a great weapon but I think it's been oversold.  While it can pierce chainmail with the right arrowhead, it did so by exploiting the weaknesses of chainmail.  The same arrowhead would probably be useless against scales, and I don't think the blunter arrowheads designed to break platemail would penetrate far enough into the dragon's skin to get your killing shot.  Breaking scales plus getting depth is a lot to accomplish with one shot - I don't think you can do it without the kind of force you can get with a ballista.
> 
> (edit) Blunt isn't the right word for platemail piercing arrows, but the point holds. I'm on the kindle or I'd look it up.


I think an arrow would have to go up(under) scale, not try to penetrate a scale.
I think the arrow head of tip of the ballista missle would have to be very tough material or it would shatter on impact of the scale.

I have always thought, the best way to kill a dragon;
If it flies, it dies.
Gravity is heavy stuff. The dragon is well armored, but against blunt force trauma? Such as hitting the ground at a high rate of speed. Destroy the wings and it will fall. It will at least be stunned, swarm it with long sharp objects poked in the soft parts of the body. 
Support:
1.The brain, (small like a dinosaur) or large will come into contact with the armor plates, swell and then will have no place to expand inside the armor, traumatic brain injury kills a dragon the same as a person.
2.the neck is long and smaller then the body or head, the muscles are tough and use to supporting it, but an impact to the neck will cause a severe large force multiplied by the angles of the vertebre, small bones, even extremely tough could not take the force of impact on them, leaving the dragon paralyzed from a broken neck. It would be a very well armored non-movable dying lizard.
3.The internal organs, while fire resistant and tough enough to handle food swollowed whole, it also cannot be slammed up against the armored walls of the dragon on impact, the organs would rupture, causing internal bleeding and eventually death.

Now the impact site;
If the impact site is soft, it will lessen the force that causes the damage above, survivability is increased. 

If a dragon can crash head first into a solid rock wall, then close the book, the dragon cannot be killed by anything other then magic. No ballista, no arrow or even primitive explosion that would equal the forces of a dragon crashing into a solid object.

In my world, there is no super beast. If there is a super beast, then it would conquer the world.  Society might have to figure out a way to kill a new beast, but it should not be invulnerable.  Basic physics should be considered.


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## psychotick (Dec 10, 2013)

Hi,

No, even if a dragon can survive a direct head first smash into the cliff that doesn't mean it can't be killed by anything save magic. There's always disease, poison, and I saw this one a long time ago, suffocation. Essentially collapsing the dragon's cave up around the mouth so he can't get out and letting him run out of air.

As for ruling the world again no. Top of the food chain or peak predators today don't rule the world. Lions starve when they eat too much of the prey that keeps them alive, sharks eat their own young, tigers maul one another if they wander into each other's teritory - and of course mating's always tricky with teeth and claws. Dragons could be invulnerable to weapons and regulate its own numbers simply by poor breeding rates, dangerous mating flights, disease, low survival during their early years when they are vulnerable.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Zero Angel (Dec 10, 2013)

SeverinR said:


> In my world, there is no super beast. If there is a super beast, then it would conquer the world.  Society might have to figure out a way to kill a new beast, but it should not be invulnerable.  Basic physics should be considered.



...I just have multiple super-beasts...


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## Shadowfirelance (Dec 11, 2013)

You all are totally missing the point.

True Dragons aren't really meant to be killed.

At all.

Now, I will admit, True Dragons can be killed, just not by anything short of the Hero of the main story. Otherwise, it's just cheating. 

On Dragons ruling the world: Only thing keeping them in check is themselves, they don't really work well together.


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## A. E. Lowan (Dec 11, 2013)

Had anyone mentioned a stick of lit dynamite up his nose?

Just in a weird mood, today.  You guys are scaring the crap out of my dragon characters. O.O


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## teacup (Dec 11, 2013)

> True Dragons aren't really meant to be killed.
> 
> At all.
> 
> Now, I will admit, True Dragons can be killed, just not by anything  short of the Hero of the main story. Otherwise, it's just cheating.



True Dragons? What do you mean?
And why do you think it has to be the hero of the main story to kill them?


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## Shadowfirelance (Dec 11, 2013)

teacup said:


> True Dragons? What do you mean?
> And why do you think it has to be the hero of the main story to kill them?



Because True, Non-young Dragons are the most powerful beings on their world. True Dragons have natural magic far beyond The wisest Archmages, possess more wisdom and cunning than any mortal, and more charm than any Bard. They're just short of immortality, and they're paranoid as heck. 

The slaying of a Dragon should be one that changes history. That makes the Hero a King, or a Emperor. 

And why would you kill a young Dragon when you could just as easily befriend him/her and have an ally for life?


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## T.Allen.Smith (Dec 11, 2013)

Shadowfirelance said:


> Because True, Non-young Dragons are the most powerful beings on their world. True Dragons have natural magic far beyond The wisest Archmages, possess more wisdom and cunning than any mortal, and more charm than any Bard. They're just short of immortality, and they're paranoid as heck.  The slaying of a Dragon should be one that changes history. That makes the Hero a King, or a Emperor.  And why would you kill a young Dragon when you could just as easily befriend him/her and have an ally for life?



This may be true for the vision of a fantasy world you've created. It certainly doesn't transcend into another writer's vision by default.

 I've seen lots of different depictions of what a dragon is, and they're not all Smaug.


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## teacup (Dec 11, 2013)

> Because True, Non-young Dragons are the most powerful beings on their  world. True Dragons have natural magic far beyond The wisest Archmages,  possess more wisdom and cunning than any mortal, and more charm than any  Bard. They're just short of immortality, and they're paranoid as heck.
> 
> The slaying of a Dragon should be one that changes history. That makes the Hero a King, or a Emperor.
> 
> And why would you kill a young Dragon when you could just as easily befriend him/her and have an ally for life?



I'm guessing you're talking about your story?


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## Devor (Dec 12, 2013)

Revisiting this from like a year ago,

To really take on a dragon, we should think a little more tactical and consider a tiered, combined arms approach.  Dragons don't have a weak spot, so is there a way to create one?  What if we loaded a ballista/catapult with a spiked net to grab onto the scales and pull it to rip them off?  If we can get more power ramming it while it's on the ground, could we use arrows and ropes to ground its wings?  If it's too large to kill with poison, what if we tried toxins with a more localized effect?  Could we trap its claws inside a vat of tar-like goop?  What do we have to get it to bite for some of its teeth to come out?  Is there a way to blind it?  That kind of thing.


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## Chessie (Dec 13, 2013)

Zero Angel said:


> Has anyone mentioned dragonshouts from Skyrim yet?
> 
> THAT is the way the dovahkiin kills dragons.



Dragonrend is the ultimate way to slay a wyrm. It just requires the Staff of Magnus to also keep the dragon from using its magical breath.


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## wordwalker (Dec 13, 2013)

Naah, all I've ever needed is strong Enchantments for fireproofing and frostproofing. Then the dragon's stopping to breathe just means he's giving _me_ a breather. (Skyrim dragons are fun, but they aren't the full experience.)


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## psychotick (Dec 13, 2013)

I kill dragons in Skyrimwith a sword and shield - and there's a great cutaway scene when you do it which shows me beheading the thing!  Cheers, Greg.


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## SeverinR (Dec 13, 2013)

Shadowfirelance said:


> You all are totally missing the point.
> 
> True Dragons aren't really meant to be killed.
> 
> ...



Actually a super dragon would rule anything in a range it wishes to control. Possibly just laziness would keep it from ruling a kingdom/world. If they can walk through an army of 1000 men mowing them down, there is nothing stopping them from conquering everything except time and energy.
If you live in an area of alot of dragons, there will be dragon worship and dragon taxes. Bow down to the dragon with as much riches as they want or they fry your town. It would happen in low population dragons too, but people could move away when the dragon wasn't looking.
Dragon territory wars would be a problem, and both dragons might kill each other.

If the hero can kill a dragon, what keeps everyone else from killing it?  Typical quest item, but why doesn't the leader with thousands of men get the artifact instead of the hero with a rag tag group of misfits?

I guess it breaks down to my writing style, I don't like epic. I believe the world can only be saved by the lowly farm boy who is actually a king in hiding with special powers, so many times. I believe there is stories that can be interesting without the world being in perile every time. And if it turns epic, it shouldn't go from MC being a lowly no body to conquering the world threat in a relative short period of time.  Maybe book three of a trilogy the MC becomes BA. Book one=how bad the MC'life is, finds reason to change. Book two training and improvement, boook Three MC triumphs.
Of course each previous book can have minor victories as an ending or even set backs that set up book three.

I would say a dragon must be hard to kill, but there has to be a reason why they don't enslave man?  Why do they let man control the land?
In one book I am working on, a ballista hits just the right angle under the dragons arm, fatal shot but the dragon is able to get the rider to ground before it dies. 
I never specified if the tip of the ballista was special material or not. 

Basically, the more dragons you have in the world, the more likely you will need to kill them. If there is only a dozen or less in a world, they aren't a problem.  If there is 20 dragons within a league radius, you will need to deal with them.


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## glutton (Dec 13, 2013)

SeverinR said:


> If the hero can kill a dragon, what keeps everyone else from killing it?  Typical quest item, but why doesn't the leader with thousands of men get the artifact instead of the hero with a rag tag group of misfits?



Maybe the dragon could see 1,000 men coming but the lone hero has a better chance to get close enough?

Maybe most of the 1,000 soldiers would flee in panic upon seeing dozens of comrades dead in one breath but the hero has more fortitude?

Or maybe the hero actually is as formidable as an army on their lonesome lol.


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## wordwalker (Dec 14, 2013)

Honestly, ordinary troops aren't much good against a dragon, no matter how many they are. They can barely dent its scales (if it even stays on the ground), and most troopers will be lucky to get in one swing because its flame, sweeping tail, and many other tricks are perfect for mowing down crowds.

--Hmm, if I wanted to _create_ a creature to fight armies, wouldn't it be...

Their main options would be massed arrowfire and hoping a couple shots at least nicked the beast, or more likely ballistas or a lance charge. But if the dragon is still on the ground when those knights get across the field, or doesn't start dodging and flaming the ballistas, it doesn't deserve to live another thousand years.


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## Zero Angel (Dec 14, 2013)

I can see most fantasy dragons decimating armies, but I strongly doubt that they would be ultimately victorious unless they were VERY careful and it wasn't a straight-up fight. I.e. guerilla dragons. 

And I realize that Smaug is the go-to fantasy dragon, but if you look at myth, dragons were rarely anywhere near super-powerful and were much more of a nuisance. They were invincible to most commoners, but vulnerable to knights. I'm fine with dragons being much more powerful, but I don't quite get making them unbeatable. 

My dragons were originally super-powerful though, and at that point they are usually referred to as "dragon-gods". There were only a few trillion of them though, so they got smashed by the demon overlord. Luckily, that led to the creation of the multiverse as the dragon-gods tried to escape, but in so doing, they were Lessened. They kept getting Lessened over the years as different cataclysms happened until present-day dragon youths are not much more powerful than normal adventurers. 

Again, if super-powerful dragons are your thing, that's cool, but bear in mind what it means to be super-powerful and they probably need a foil of some sort. 

Also, if they are super-powerful, then a quest for a weapon that kills them is not going to hold my attention, and unless your hero is a Superman equivalent, then my bet is going to be on an army (or if it's an assassination quest as opposed to a straight-up fight). 

On the other hand, committing your troops to try to kill a dragon is entirely different. The cost of lives and supplies may not be worth the end result. In that case, if there is a group of adventurers that want to do it for a modest sum if they're successful and no cost if they fail, then that's cool too.


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## Shadowfirelance (Dec 16, 2013)

I love the two large posts above.
They bring up two very important points.

Anything that is not a god, can be killed at some point. (Even some gods for that matter.) So can Dragons. But, A Dragon should be an Epic thing that gets myths told about, and Legends wrote. An Army COULD kill one, and fame would follow them, which I am totally fine with.

The hero won't go on a quest to kill a Dragon, his best bet is to bargain with his life with it. You won't see anything but the best involving Dragons in my story.

(Once again, It is MY opinion. Sorry If I come off a bit 'Holier than thou."


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## Ruby (Jan 9, 2014)

wordwalker said:


> One of the most fun things about fantasy is being just realistic enough to get characters into _serious_ trouble. Such as creating a monster that's simply too massive to exist, and then still have to look for the physically best ways to stand up to it. So here, with spoilers from across fiction, is:
> 
> NINE WAYS TO KILL A DRAGON
> 
> ...


Thanks. I will try to find a method that you've missed.


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## wordwalker (Jan 9, 2014)

Near the end of this thread, we agreed that "get a bigger dragon" deserves to be a tenth. 

And



Sam Evren said:


> Break his or her heart. It seems very traditional to fight a dragon, but there are many ways to die. Find a way to kill it that stands out from the crowd.
> 
> Say your dragon guards a sacred forest. Burn it down.
> 
> ...



really does stand out. If a dragon's power is an expression of some ancient place or thing, target that; if it's raw physical power, bypass that and go for the emotions. It worked on King Kong.


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## psychotick (Jan 9, 2014)

Hi,

In one book I used a technique against cyclops that would probably work against a dragon - since they love their sleep. Wait till he's asleep (duh!) then soften the ground under him by diverting underground rivers, but not all the way. Leave a thin crust at the top so he has no idea what's happening while you use your magic to eat awy the subsoil and build a nice big grave of silty / loamy quicksand. Then when it's large enough, take the crust away and watch him sink into the silt. He'll wake up of course but by the time he does he's already under water. (It works better at night too so he's not quite sure what's happening.) Then block the rivers up so that the silt solidifies around him, in effect burying him.

I used another variation of this in Maverick against a spider queen (As big and nasty as any dragon). She was living in a dead castle which I figure is not that much different to a cave. Melt the rock around him so he's quickly buried in lava. Presumably he won't burn but he won't like it much. Then let all the heat go. The lava turns back to rock and the dragon is embedded in solid rock. Think a fly in amber. He may not die if he doesn't need to breath, but he is somewhat trapped until the rock erodes!

Cheers, Greg.


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## Hainted (Jan 11, 2014)

In Fables by Bill Willingham he mentions that the Adversary hasn't invaded Earth because of modern weapons, specifically because a single jet fighter could decimate his Dragons.


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## wordwalker (Jan 11, 2014)

On thinking of this, I realize we're talking mainly about the more powerful dragons.



Zero Angel said:


> And I realize that Smaug is the go-to fantasy dragon, but if you look at myth, dragons were rarely anywhere near super-powerful and were much more of a nuisance. They were invincible to most commoners, but vulnerable to knights.



You're right, Zero. Dragons were more likely to be _village_ terrors like St. George's, or the end of a long trail of hazards around a treasure; the idea that they took on armies or made a whole city stand and watch while one hero saved the day is fairly new.

So, there's room for younger dragons too. If you look at the pterosaur Quetzalcoatlus, it's estimated at about 500 lbs, equal to say a female grizzly bear, but with 35' of wingspan. All it would need to count as a minor dragon would be the breath and at least a bit of cunning, and some magic to let it fly with a less ponderous wingspan. And you've got something not too different from the smaller beasts in the _Temeraire_ books or _How to Train Your Dragon_, that could be send a farm district into panic but not be impossible for a expert warrior with a brain.

And I think the minimums for "scaling up" (yes I have to say it) a dragon from there are not just size but two particulars: 

the altered physics so it can fly without being 99% wingspan (and okay, actually move, and keep fed), and
toughening those scales. 

From what Malik's taught us about the power of hunting bows, let alone warbows or full yew longbows, I understand how a hunter can kill a grizzly with an arrow-- though he'd be in badass territory to risk it. So any interesting fantasy creature that wants to come out of the forests or dark alleys to storm the castle is going to need something like armor, or it'll just be shot to pieces by multiple archers. Which brings us back to the Vulnerable Spot again, at least as one way to hurt it.

("Armor" may be oversimplifying it. If we think of a dinosaur attacking those troops, we think of its sheer size and reptillian stubbornness making it hard but possible to wear down. So maybe making bigger dragons armored is just more respectful than picking them apart, but Smaug shows it can be cooler.)


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