# Can I use names from other cultures?



## Moonalight (Jun 13, 2020)

A lot of times, for my characters, I like to take names that actually seem relevant for them. The only thing is that most of the names are from other cultures or religions that I know nothing about. Could it offend people if I named people and places using words from their culture?


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## A. E. Lowan (Jun 13, 2020)

Short answer: it depends. Yes, it can be seen as offensive, but it also largely depends on context. What is your genre? Are the names you're choosing relevant to the character's culture and backstory or are you just naming them willy-nilly? For example, we (my writing team and I) are working on a long-running urban fantasy series set in the United States. We have characters from many different cultures and their names reflect this. Japanese characters have Japanese names, dwarves tend to have Norse-sounding names, etc.


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## A. E. Lowan (Jun 13, 2020)

Going to just toss this out there, as well. It's an incredible resource on writing beyond the common narrative and can help to steer you through the rocks. I would spend some quality time with their searchable site and take their advice to heart.

Braving Diversity: Intro Post


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## TheKillerBs (Jun 13, 2020)

A. E. Lowan said:


> Short answer: it depends. Yes, it can be seen as offensive, but it also largely depends on context. What is your genre? Are the names you're choosing relevant to the character's culture and backstory or are you just naming them willy-nilly?


Not only is this really offencive, it's terrible for the readers' suspension of disbelief if you have a redhead from a grassy, rainy island filled with the fair folk, but they're called Abdul al-Bashir and the island is called Aokusajima.


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## Penpilot (Jun 13, 2020)

IMHO, it depends on the culture and the name. First things first, if you have a name you want to use, the simplest first step is to google it and see what comes up. If it's a generic name/word, personally, I don't think there's a problem using it. But in certain cultures, names aren't as generic and often have different meanings. That's where you might want to tread lightly or you can make a big faux pas.

I mean even within the English language slang can put a monkey wrench into things in significant ways. For example, remember the movie the Last Air Bender? Well, when they released that in the UK, nobody bothered to tell them or nobody noticed that the word "bender" in the UK has a different meaning. It's slang for a male homosexual. Soooo... whoops. 

But you also have to balance things out. People of all different backgrounds move around, and it's entirely reasonable and possible for a person to have a name that does not match what's skin deep. I'm Chinese, I have an English name because I grew up in an English speaking country. Why can't an Caucasian person have a Chinese name if they were born in a Chinese speaking country?

I think where you start to get into trouble is if you just start plucking words out of the air willy-nilly without much thought to what you're doing or what the word actually means. Do some basic research and that should help you avoid some of the obvious pitfalls. Another thing you can do is to find the word/name you like and then shift it. Make up an new word/name that sounds similar but isn't that word/name.


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## Taniwha (Jun 13, 2020)

Moonalight said:


> A lot of times, for my characters, I like to take names that actually seem relevant for them. The only thing is that most of the names are from other cultures or religions that I know nothing about. Could it offend people if I named people and places using words from their culture?


I'm a native of my country. I'd find it offensive to read one of my ancestor names used in someone's story that had nothing to do with them because our language means something. It isn't just words. At the same time I have no issue with using say 'Karen' or 'Debbie' for some reason. Characters have to have names. I've had to come up with probably 30 names so far. Depending on the chapter - the 'feel' of the name has to reflect the 'country' they inhabit. My countries are fictional but they do have a grounding in real countries with their cultures. I've chosen to use 'ish' names - names that have a Polynesian-ish feel, an 'African-ish' feel etc. I make them up but I usually do a bit of research first.
I had interesting feedback from my editor though. She said one of the names I used for a male character was actually a Celtic female name. She asked me if I wanted to change it. I will actually when I get to it but it won't be easy - I've come to know and love that character with the name I gave him


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## Onemaus (Jun 13, 2020)

You can go through the rabbit hole of etymology of names and find that often times they are variations across cultures. Depending on spelling and accent, some name cross that barrier. 

I've gone the route of using names that fit the persons temperament or magical affinity as placeholders and when I further develop the separate cultures can go back to make the appropriate edits. 

If you're going to the chance firstly educate yourself on the meanings and cultural significance of the names your using.


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## Devor (Jun 13, 2020)

I think - and, if people think I'm wrong, I can walk it back - but I think that some cultures are more sensitive to their use in this way than others are.  Many Native Americans, for example, are very much trying to preserve the integrity of their cultural heritage, while on the other end, the Japanese have a rich literature full of creators remixing their folklore.

I mention those two specifically because my own work is about sprites and hobs and other tiny fairies, and there are similar stories and creatures throughout the North American tribes, and in Japan.  The fairies in our setting have their city in a barrow that leads into the fairy otherworld, and I'm intending to suggest that there are two others - a small one in a region styled on Japan, and a larger one in a region styled on North America, with fairy characters based on the relevant folklore. But when it comes down to it, I'm hoping to eventually introduce characters from the Peak of Mt. Holnai, and I'm hesitant to even name Nadilkal, the Singing Stones.  Maybe that'll change, but at this stage it's just too hard to get a good grasp of what people would and wouldn't appreciate from it.


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## Onemaus (Jun 13, 2020)

Devor said:


> I think - and, if people think I'm wrong, I can walk it back - but I think that some cultures are more sensitive to their use in this way than others are.  Many Native Americans, for example, are very much trying to preserve the integrity of their cultural heritage, while on the other end, the Japanese have a rich literature full of creators remixing their folklore.
> .



This is where we get into heritage, cultural importance, and identity. I'm first generation Dominican and we have a history of colonization and "mixture" with other colonized peoples. So having a blend of Taino, French, Spanish, Dominican, Haitian, African, Dutch, Italian (so many more) makes it easy to have a wide field of names to choose from. Especially if I'm writing characters like that in my project. So Moonalight if your region is one of constant and/or historical conquest with shifting power and regime dynamics: having various cultural/religious names can work and work well. 
But if you're writing in the lens of a marginalized group, like Native Americans, than keep those traditions sacred. Names hold weight in every culture, but the importance varies throughout. Or writing in the lens of an isolated group that has never or barely interacted with others, take that into account.

This may be a confusing or heavier answer than needed to be but if you're concerned of culture appropriation or misuse than again take the time to learn. Create your own religions, customs, cultures using the framework of existing ones. 

It will take longer to craft your vision/story but that's where the richness lies.


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## Darkfantasy (Jun 14, 2020)

I think it depends on the context in which the names are used. And it has to be said that some people will get offended for literally anything they can. I don't get offended just a bit irritated when people assume I'm Scottish or Irish just because I have read hair. Life becomes a lot easier and happier when you just get over it and stop worrying about offending others with harmless things. I'm not talking about a deliberate force or dig being made. As long as it choice of name feels right for that character and who they are and were they have come from.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 14, 2020)

I think you should be extremely, extremely cautious of using names that are specific to a culture that you know nothing about. For one thing, if you know nothing about the culture they come from, you're more likely to end up using the names incorrectly or inappropriately. 

But I'm a little confused about how you can know that a name is "relevant" to your character if you know nothing about the culture it comes from? How do you know that you are understanding the name and its usage if you don't know the culture? Why would you even want to use names from cultures you know nothing about? How could they be meaningful to you?


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## StrawhatOverlord (Jun 14, 2020)

I name the different kinds of humans after actual names from the irl culture they're most inspired by, but almost exclusively old archaic names, like Alaric. Other races I do the same, but I corrupt the hell out of the word so it doesn't mean anything, but still sort of invokes the air of where it came from, and still sounds neat.


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## Queshire (Jun 17, 2020)

A lot of people here have talked about potentially being offensive, but another risk is having the name come across as just corny to a native speaker. I mean, if you're used to anime or video games you probably don't notice it anymore, but just think about it for a moment. You've got people named Light Yagami, Monkey D. Luffy or Cloud Strife.


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## ascanius (Jun 17, 2020)

First off, simply because you may or may not "offend" some professional victim is no reason to do or not do something.  Unless your catering to that specific audience, if so don't mind me.

Second that writing with color website is rife with illogical political crap, I would avoid it IMHO.  Better option is come here and ask people.

The most important thing is how you use those names.  If it's simply because you don't know what to call your chars, that's just lazy and most likely means the rest of the book will reflect such.  There better be an explanation about those strange foreign names that makes sense

If your setting is Eurasia and the nemes of villagers are Kevin, Tom, etc it doesn't really make sense.  The same applies to any name used to give things an exotic feel.  It just makes you the writer look lazy and incompetent, no one wants to read a book like that.


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## nck (Jun 17, 2020)

I guess I find the context for this question a little bit odd. You seem to be implying using names from different real-world cultures irrespective of whether they match the culture being depicted in the story, otherwise you'd presumably be asking about whether it's offensive to draw from real-world cultures more generally, not just names.

If that's the case, I would say that while it might be offensive, I also just wouldn't do this from a writing practices perspective. The names of your characters should reflect the cultures you're depicting, and the names of characters from the same culture should have some measure of consistency. Don't just pull random names from the real world because you like what they mean.


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## nck (Jun 17, 2020)

ascanius said:


> First off, simply because you may or may not "offend" some professional victim is no reason to do or not do something.  Unless your catering to that specific audience, if so don't mind me.



I get that people have different opinions on this and that it can be something of a divisive issue, but I'm not sure we need to try and make people feel _bad_ that they care about whether or not they might offend someone.


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## ascanius (Jun 17, 2020)

nck said:


> I get that people have different opinions on this and that it can be something of a divisive issue, but I'm not sure we need to try and make people feel _bad_ that they care about whether or not they might offend someone.



That's my whole point I cannot control how you or other people feel.  My intention is/was not to make people feel bad that they care, caring is good.  Example, I am offended that you think I intentionally set out to make people feel bad about caring, you didn't seem to worry about my feelings.  My intention was never to make anyone feel bad.  Or... I find belittling that you think they need you to defend them, ( ok not really but you get my point).

However it is not good to modify or censure oneself or others because it might/ or might not cause offense. The problem is now people get offended over everything.  We as writers should be the last group to fear giving offence.  Don't let fear of giving offence limit you.  There are more important things to worry about such as writing well. 

My phone's text editor is going crazy.  It delets words or inserts words when I go back to edit, sorry if it's incoherent, I'm not writing the paragraph agai.


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## nck (Jun 17, 2020)

> However it is not good to modify or censure oneself or others because it might/ or might not cause offense. The problem is now people get offended over everything. We as writers should be the last group to fear giving offence.



Yeah, this is what I mean. If you're saying it's "not good" to censor oneself out of fear of causing offense, and that writers _should_ not fear being offensive, then you're saying it's wrong and bad if they _do_ censor themselves or _do_ fear offending.


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## ascanius (Jun 18, 2020)

Yeah it is wrong to censor themselves out of fear of possibly offending someone.  I'm not really understanding what the terrible thing about this is... Unless your implying that self-censorship is a good thing.  To which I would disagree, for the reasons I already mentioned.  

I have a question. What makes this hypothetical group who might be offended so much better than me that I should censor myself.  Why are their feelings more important than mine, or my artistic expression.  What about the hundreds of other people who think differently than them?


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## nck (Jun 18, 2020)

I think maybe you're misunderstanding. I am not taking a stand on whether or not it's good to self-censor one way or the other; I am pointing out that _you_ are taking a stand that it's _always bad to self-censor out of fear of offending. 
_


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## ascanius (Jun 18, 2020)

nck said:


> I think maybe you're misunderstanding. I am not taking a stand on whether or not it's good to self-censor one way or the other; I am pointing out that _you_ are taking a stand that it's _always bad to self-censor out of fear of offending. _



Ok.... Your point.  I kinda thought this was obvious, sorry if I wasn't clear.


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## nck (Jun 18, 2020)

What I'm trying to get at is: why is it always wrong to self-censor? If that's a choice I make myself, like not offending people is actually something I care about, by your own lights I would still appear to be doing something wrong. That's what I meant in talking about what the language of your post suggests. You're not just saying it's wrong to expect someone to care about offending people, you're saying _it's wrong to care about offending people_.


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## ascanius (Jun 18, 2020)

nck said:


> What I'm trying to get at is: why is it always wrong to self-censor? If that's a choice I make myself, like not offending people is actually something I care about, by your own lights I would still appear to be doing something wrong. That's what I meant in talking about what the language of your post suggests. You're not just saying it's wrong to expect someone to care about offending people, you're saying _it's wrong to care about offending people_.



First off I never said always.
Second, no that is not at all what I'm saying.  Your misconstruing what I am saying, I never once said anything of the sort.  I'm saying it is wrong to self censor out of fear you may offend someone.

Let me be clear I'm also not implying it's ok to be an ass.

Edit:. Why is it wrong, well because you are no longer writing the book they, the offended, are.  People can be offended by anything especially now.  I ask the question again what makes them so much better than you to decide what you write, why?  You cannot please everyone so who gets to not be offended?  Why are they more deserving than others?  What makes someone or a group so important that you should go out of your way to make sure they don't feel bad, would they do the same for you?  The biggest problem is people's emotions are as fleeting and arbitrary as the wind, terrible metaphore I know.


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## nck (Jun 18, 2020)

I feel like you should reread what I was saying you were saying, and then re-read what you just said you were saying, because they're the same thing.


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## ascanius (Jun 18, 2020)

ascanius said:


> First off, simply because you may or may not "offend" some professional victim is no reason to do or not do something.





nck said:


> What I'm trying to get at is: why is it always wrong to self-censor? If that's a choice I make myself, like not offending people is actually something I care about, by your own lights I would still appear to be doing something wrong. That's what I meant in talking about what the language of your post suggests. You're not just saying it's wrong to expect someone to care about offending people, you're saying _it's wrong to care about offending people_.



No see I never once said "it's wrong to care about offending people."

May I point something out.  You're interpreting what I wrote to mean, its wrong to care about offending people.  But that's not what I meant, I meant exactly what I said.
To fear something and to care for something are two different things.   

Anyway we are arguing semantics so......  Maybe tomorrow.


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## ascanius (Jun 18, 2020)

Reaver said:


> My dear friend ascanius, you’re a highly valued and long standing member of The Scriptorium. You know better than to make comments on contemporary politics.
> I hope that you and your loved ones are doing well during these darkened days.
> Keep up the great posts but please leave out the political commentary unless it’s fictional.
> Thanks for being one of our best and brightest.



Ok.. I'll admit it that was a bit pointed sorry.


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## Chinaren (Jul 1, 2020)

Personally I say go for it.  

As long as you don't _intend_ offense, then a name should be a name, and you should be free to use it. People use swear words don't they?  Some people find _that_ language offensive.  If you worry about offending people over every little thing you'd best give up writing right now.  

If a person has a problem with it, then they're free not to read it.


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## nck (Jul 1, 2020)

Chinaren said:


> Personally I say go for it.
> 
> As long as you don't _intend_ offense, then a name should be a name, and you should be free to use it. People use swear words don't they?  Some people find _that_ language offensive.  If you worry about offending people over every little thing you'd best give up writing right now.
> 
> If a person has a problem with it, then they're free not to read it.



I feel like "if it offends you just don't read it" isn't a great stance to take here. As writers what we create is open to criticism, including "that's offensive."


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## Devor (Jul 1, 2020)

nck said:


> I feel like "if it offends you just don't read it" isn't a great stance to take here. As writers what we create is open to criticism, including "that's offensive."



So while I do think that's true enough, a lot of people have a particular image in mind when they hear the word "offensive" that skews the way they see these discussions, like finding things offensive is somehow righteous, like that's the baseline for approaching the subject. A lot of people would suddenly think differently if the image in question was, say, promoting drug use. I personally was really turned off by Marie Kondo's "spark joy" and other cleaning advice - her clients are usually those who can afford a professional cleaning coach, and I feel that colors the advice she gives, creating a wave of smug, classist, patronizing cleaning advice.....

No, there is some point where you have to look at criticism and shrug it off.  At some point the criticism becomes part of the story - a conversation that people partake in or not.  At some point it's not something to avoid, but something you have to accept, and let happen, and recognize that sometimes there are people who just aren't right for your work, that you're not trying to speak to them, and there's often nothing wrong with that.


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## nck (Jul 1, 2020)

Devor said:


> No, there is some point where you have to look at criticism and shrug it off.  At some point the criticism becomes part of the story - a conversation that people partake in or not.  At some point it's not something to avoid, but something you have to accept, and let happen, and recognize that sometimes there are people who just aren't right for your work, that you're not trying to speak to them, and there's often nothing wrong with that.



This doesn't quite speak to the point I was making, which is that it seems wrong to pre-emptively shut down criticism to the effect that something is offensive by saying, "Just don't read it."

But even apart from that, it seemed like the point of this thread in the first place was to get feedback as to whether this would offend people, and I don't think responses that can be summed up as, "It might, but who cares" are really very helpful in that context. The person who started this thread already does care, that's why they asked.


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## Miles Lacey (Jul 1, 2020)

Moonalight said:


> A lot of times, for my characters, I like to take names that actually seem relevant for them. The only thing is that most of the names are from other cultures or religions that I know nothing about. Could it offend people if I named people and places using words from their culture?



Over the last few years, my work in progress has had many changes in terms of environment, cultures and so forth.  As the cultures changed so, too, did the names.  As Asians are the second-largest ethnic minority in New Zealand after Maori I could be potentially costing myself about 708,000 potential readers if I screw up basic things like naming conventions in a cultural setting that is modelled (in part) on southeast Asian cultures.  Hence my attitude is that when you are borrowing names from other cultures it's always important to make sure you're aware of naming conventions, what names mean and if the name would adequately reflect the cultural environment they are living in.  

Here's an obvious example: Aroha is a lovely Polynesian name that translates as "Love" in the Maori language and if your setting is a Polynesian one or one where you would expect to see a Polynesian or two it's a great name to give your female or fa'afafine (non-binary or transgender) character.  No one will ever take you seriously as a writer if you have a character named Aroha in a world based on the Roman Empire.  

Another example of how things could go wrong was when Mitsubishi released a line of SUVs under the name Pajero.  The Japanese thought the name sounded cool but they didn't realise that the word pajero is the Spanish word for a person who masturbates.  Not surprisingly, Mitsubishi Pajero hasn't does very well in Spanish-speaking countries!

Naming conventions are just as important.  In most Asian cultures the surname comes first and the given name follows.  Thus Kim, as in Kim Jong-Un, is the surname and Jong-Un is the given name.  Woe betide any Westerner who calls him Jong-Un Kim, although it's actually correct from a Western naming convention.

Finally, it's always a good idea to keep in mind that it's considered offensive to name anyone after a deity or something considered to be sacred or taboo in many cultures.  That's why it's a good idea to do a check to make sure that the name you call your character isn't named after any of these things.  I'm pretty sure that if you named your villain Jesus Christ or your hero Adolf Hitler your book would be banned in a sizeable number of countries for obvious reasons so try to keep that in mind before naming your character Pele, Maui or even Mohammad.

Naming a character or even a place name after something from another culture does require knowing something about the culture from which that name has been borrowed, what the name means and what it signifies.to people within that culture.    It's not about being politically correct or culturally sensitive.  It's about your credibility as a writer.  It's about preventing potential loss of earnings from your writing.  It could even save your life considering the toxic political environment in some countries where writers are being censored, "cancelled" or even beaten up for writing stuff that people have taken exception to.


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## Steerpike (Jul 1, 2020)

Miles Lacey good points, and I agree in general. It does raise an interesting question, however—to what extent in my world, which is not the real world, can I use real world cultural influences but play with them, alter them to my own purposes. For example, supposed my names have the flavor of a certain culture, but in my world I want to use my own naming conventions that may be a spin on the real world or completely different. 

From a practical standpoint, I suppose the answer is that I can do it to the extent my readers think it works, and to the extent they think I’ve blundered along out of ignorance rather than made a purposeful decision I shouldn’t do it.


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## Miles Lacey (Jul 2, 2020)

Steerpike - A very good question indeed!  

Even imaginary worlds and cultures will still have real-world influences and the readers will quickly pick up on what those influences are.  They might tolerate names that don't fit in with what they think the cultural influence is if there is a logical explanation.  

For example, you might have an ancient culture that was almost wiped out and / or merged with other cultures to form a totally new culture.  Yet, remnants of the ancient culture still survive to this day, such as place names, the names of some of your characters and even a couple of the cultural festivals.  A good example can be found in Central and South America.  Although the Spanish Conquistadors and the diseases introduced by the Spanish almost totally wiped out both Aztec and Mayan cultures there are still Aztec and Mayan place names, many people have names of Aztec and Mayan origin and remnants of their respective cultures still survive to this day, mostly in the form of festivals and certain local traditions.

Another example that comes to mind is the common practice among the Chinese to Anglicize their names because of the real, or perceived, belief that their legal or birth names would be too hard to pronounce by Europeans or because it would improve their chances of getting employment and housing in countries like New Zealand and Australia.  

Whatever the case, if you decide to use a name that doesn't quite sound right for the culture that has been created make sure there's a reasonable explanation for it.


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## Devor (Jul 2, 2020)

nck said:


> This doesn't quite speak to the point I was making, which is that it seems wrong to pre-emptively shut down criticism to the effect that something is offensive by saying, "Just don't read it."
> 
> But even apart from that, it seemed like the point of this thread in the first place was to get feedback as to whether this would offend people, and I don't think responses that can be summed up as, "It might, but who cares" are really very helpful in that context. The person who started this thread already does care, that's why they asked.



Right.... well, I think you have to consider the seriousness of it.  I mentioned in an earlier post that it's my impression some cultures are more open than others about having their cultural terms used by others - like the Japanese compared to the different Native American tribes.  If that's true, it's still likely that some people who are Japanese would still take "offense" or get annoyed by the use of their names in a Western novel.  If you look at critiques of the Last Airbender, for example, while everyone loves the series, there are the occasional criticisms about how the show features the aesthetics of different Asian cultures without really featuring the values of those cultures.  And honestly that's all completely fair - yet I know many Asian Americans who absolutely love it, as they share both the western personality traits and the eastern aesthetic.

Nothing is ever really clear cut.  Again, at some point you have to accept the criticism and let it be part of the conversation.  There's only so much you can do.  That doesn't mean be reckless and offensive.  It means drawing your boundaries because even the greatest work of art literally cannot please everyone.


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## nck (Jul 2, 2020)

Devor said:


> Right.... well, I think you have to consider the seriousness of it.  I mentioned in an earlier post that it's my impression some cultures are more open than others about having their cultural terms used by others - like the Japanese compared to the different Native American tribes.  If that's true, it's still likely that some people who are Japanese would still take "offense" or get annoyed by the use of their names in a Western novel.  If you look at critiques of the Last Airbender, for example, while everyone loves the series, there are the occasional criticisms about how the show features the aesthetics of different Asian cultures without really featuring the values of those cultures.  And honestly that's all completely fair - yet I know many Asian Americans who absolutely love it, as they share both the western personality traits and the eastern aesthetic.
> 
> Nothing is ever really clear cut.  Again, at some point you have to accept the criticism and let it be part of the conversation.  There's only so much you can do.  That doesn't mean be reckless and offensive.  It means drawing your boundaries because you can't please everyone.



I feel like I'm maybe not being completely clear. I am not taking a stance on what one should do in the face of this kind of criticism; I am suggesting that the wrong way to frame the sort of discussion we are having here is to dismiss this kind of criticism as prima facie illegitimate and "just people looking for something to get offended about" in the first place.


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## Ban (Jul 2, 2020)

You can do anything, it's your world. If you want to avoid criticism, take the time to present the names you use in a context that represents the "source material," aka the culture the names originate from/ are nowadays used by. If you know too little about a culture to do it justice and you don't want anyone taking offense, don't use it, but again, you *can* do anything.


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## Devor (Jul 2, 2020)

nck said:


> I am suggesting that the wrong way to frame the sort of discussion we are having here is to dismiss this kind of criticism as prima facie illegitimate and "just people looking for something to get offended about" in the first place.



Ahh, okay, I think I see what happened.  You were debating with Ascanius about it a few weeks ago.  But I actually responded to your reply to Chinaren, who didn't say anything like what you're suggesting.  Ascanius did though, but that wasn't the conversation I meant to get involved with.


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## nck (Jul 2, 2020)

Devor said:


> Ahh, okay, I think I see what happened.  You were debating with Ascanius about it a few weeks ago.  But I actually responded to your reply to Chinaren, who didn't say anything like what you're suggesting.  Ascanius did though, but that wasn't the conversation I meant to get involved with.



I actually took Chinaren to be making a similar suggestion. It's possible I read them wrongly.

ETA: Or, to be clear, I was responding specifically to Chinaren's suggestion that some people are just looking to get offended over every little thing, and that if one is offended one can simply not read it. I honestly thought I made this pretty explicit.


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## Devor (Jul 2, 2020)

nck said:


> ETA: Or, to be clear, I was responding specifically to Chinaren's suggestion that some people are just looking to get offended over every little thing, and that if one is offended one can simply not read it. I honestly thought I made this pretty explicit.



But that's.... I mean, there's no accusation in that post at all that people are "looking" to be offended.

And that second point is what I've been responding to.  People do get offended over everything.  I get offended over all sorts of things.  It would be a mistake to immediately presume that all offenses are strong enough to warrant the work being tossed out, rewritten, "cancelled," or so on.  The point of a critic isn't censure.  It's to have a critical conversation about the material.  That conversation isn't always something to fear and avoid.  Your work can speak to one viewpoint - that doesn't mean that other viewpoints are somehow invalid.  Lots of different, even conflicting things are true at the same time.

The Last Airbender - written by white people using names and aesthetics from different cultures - can be a masterpiece, a cultural favorite among many, and a little offensive under a certain viewpoint, all at the same time, and sometimes that's okay, because it's a conversation, and people shouldn't have to be wrong, or angry, or self-righteous, or defensive, or walk on eggshells, to be heard.

It's not my intention to make sweeping generalizations and excuse all sorts of serious and offensive things.  But there's a point where as an author you can't worry about every pleasing every viewpoint, and appeasing every irritated fan.  I believe you should try to do right by your audience, but as a practical matter that only goes so far before it becomes needlessly burdensome.


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## nck (Jul 2, 2020)

Devor said:


> But that's.... I mean, there's no accusation in that post at all that people are "looking" to be offended.



I took that accusation to be implied this language:



> As long as you don't _intend_ offense, then a name should be a name, and you should be free to use it. People use swear words don't they? Some people find _that_ language offensive. If you worry about offending people over every little thing you'd best give up writing right now.



That clearly seems to be saying to me that because some people are just going to get offended about anything, you might as well not worry about who you're offending.



> And that second point is what I've been responding to.  People do get offended over everything.  I get offended over all sorts of things.  It would be a mistake to immediately presume that all offenses are strong enough to warrant the work being tossed out, rewritten, "cancelled," or so on.  The point of a critic isn't censure.  It's to have a critical conversation about the material.  That conversation isn't always something to fear and avoid.  Your work can speak to one viewpoint - that doesn't mean that other viewpoints are somehow invalid.  Lots of different, even conflicting things are true at the same time.
> 
> The Last Airbender - written by white people using names and aesthetics from different cultures - can be a masterpiece, a cultural favorite among many, and a little offensive under a certain viewpoint, all at the same time, and sometimes that's okay, because it's a conversation, and people shouldn't have to be wrong, or angry, or self-righteous, or defensive, or walk on eggshells, to be heard.
> 
> It's not my intention to make sweeping generalizations and excuse all sorts of serious and offensive things.  But there's a point where as an author you can't worry about every pleasing every viewpoint, and appeasing every irritated fan.  I believe you should try to do right by your audience, but as a practical matter that only goes so far before it becomes needlessly burdensome.


Again, I'm not taking a stance on any of this. I am saying "if it offends you don't read it" is dismissive of any attempt at having a critical dialogue about these issues before it even gets off the ground. That's it.


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## Devor (Jul 2, 2020)

nck said:


> I took that accusation to be implied this language:



It isn't.  I'd also point out that the comment followed a statement directly towards the topic at hand, so taking the follow up to be a sweeping generalization across all offenses is problematic.



> Again, I'm not taking a stance on any of this. I am saying "if it offends you don't read it" is dismissive of any attempt at having a critical dialogue about these issues before it even gets off the ground. That's it.



How can you not be taking a stance on anything I've just said.... when my point is, "at some point, if it offends you, don't read it."  The statement isn't necessarily dismissive because differing viewpoints, both the positive and the negative, can all be valid simultaneously.  Using a cultural name can be both celebratory and appropriating.  Sometimes things just aren't all that clear cut, and having one viewpoint isn't the same as stifling another.


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## nck (Jul 2, 2020)

> It isn't. I'd also point out that the comment followed a statement directly towards the topic at hand, so taking the follow up to be a sweeping generalization across all offenses is problematic.



I honestly don't know how anyone is meant to read "If you worry about offending people over every little thing you'd best give up writing right now" as anything as a generalization across all offenses. 



> How can you not be taking a stance on anything I've just said.... when my point is, "at some point, if it offends you, don't read it." The statement isn't necessarily dismissive because differing viewpoints, both the positive and the negative, can all be valid simultaneously. Using a cultural name can be both celebratory and appropriating. Sometimes things just aren't all that clear cut, and having one viewpoint isn't the same as stifling another.



If you don't see the difference between saying "If it offends you don't read it" as a blanket general stance on this issue, and on weighing in on whether offense in a particular case is warranted or not, I really don't know what else to say.


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## Devor (Jul 2, 2020)

nck said:


> I honestly don't know how anyone is meant to read "If you worry about offending people over every* little thing* you'd best give up writing right now" as anything as a generalization across *all* offenses.



*sigh*

*Little things* are not *all* things.


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## nck (Jul 2, 2020)

"Every little thing" is actually often colloquially used to mean "all," but even if that's not what was intended, the rest of my point regarding what "if you're offended, don't read it" amounts to it still stands.


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## TheKillerBs (Jul 2, 2020)

Miles Lacey said:


> Finally, it's always a good idea to keep in mind that it's considered offensive to name anyone after a deity or something considered to be sacred or taboo in many cultures.  That's why it's a good idea to do a check to make sure that the name you call your character isn't named after any of these things.  I'm pretty sure that if you named your villain Jesus Christ or your hero Adolf Hitler your book would be banned in a sizeable number of countries for obvious reasons so try to keep that in mind before naming your character Pele, Maui or even Mohammad.


Another thing to keep in mind is that sometimes names mean different things to different people. A Latino will see a character named Pele completely differently than a Polynesian. Even within the same broad culture, a Christian or Jew will see a reference to scripture in the name Naomi, while an anime fan might instead see a Japanese flavour to the name.


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## Maunus (Sep 27, 2020)

Fear of offending is a very good reason to self-censor. Probably the only good reason to do so, I would say. One of the very foundations of society, I would say. Offending people is not always to be avoided, but it is best that it be done deliberately and with intention and with a good understanding of the likely consequences. Offending one's readers is a bad idea if one has the intention of having them read more of one's work.


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## A. E. Lowan (Sep 27, 2020)

Devor said:


> So while I do think that's true enough, a lot of people have a particular image in mind when they hear the word "offensive" that skews the way they see these discussions, like finding things offensive is somehow righteous, like that's the baseline for approaching the subject. A lot of people would suddenly think differently if the image in question was, say, promoting drug use. I personally was really turned off by Marie Kondo's "spark joy" and other cleaning advice - her clients are usually those who can afford a professional cleaning coach, and I feel that colors the advice she gives, creating a wave of smug, classist, patronizing cleaning advice.....
> 
> No, there is some point where you have to look at criticism and shrug it off.  At some point the criticism becomes part of the story - a conversation that people partake in or not.  At some point it's not something to avoid, but something you have to accept, and let happen, and recognize that sometimes there are people who just aren't right for your work, that you're not trying to speak to them, and there's often nothing wrong with that.


Totally agree with you about Marie Kondo, Devor. Ick. You've seen my desk. Leave me my toys and junk.

You can't make everyone happy all the time, but there is one thing you can do that I haven't seen enough of in this discussion: you can respect them. I've been reading a lot about being concerned about being offensive, but essentially that's a "me" concern. Let's change the dialogue to "us" and "them" concerns. Mostly "them." In conversations about risking offense, most of the focus is on how we are perceived by our readers as a whole. It's not about how our words and worlds affect the people we are trying to represent. To respect. And that's a high wire to cross, but it's doable. It just takes doing a truly ungodly amount of homework, dedication and a degree of reverence for the cultures you are representing, and love for the worlds and people we create.


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## skip.knox (Sep 27, 2020)

We've wandered rather far from the OP, and most of what's recent isn't helpful to the original question, so let me try to refocus.

>Could it offend people if I named people and places using words from their culture?
The easy answer is yes. In fact, it might very well offend someone, and the bigger your audience the more likely that becomes. They might get offended for any number of reasons, including personal ones.

The question also assumes there are clear lines here. I'm an American. Is there even such a thing as an American name? Most European names have their roots in more than one soil. Given the complexity of the history of names, one cannot expect unequivocal guidance here.

But I'll offer one anyway. <g>

It isn't about the name, it's about how the name gets treated. If the rest of the story shows a pattern of cultural indifference, or appropriation, or of general ham-handedness, then the choice of name is going to be viewed as part of that pattern. A name alone isn't likely to do this.

So, I submit to the OP that the pertinent question is, can I write about another culture without giving offense? I'll further submit that the answer is: no, if you mean to include every possible reader anywhere at any time; and the answer is yes, if you do your research, are both respectful and insightful, and if you run across a touchy topic, that you get some readers with cultural knowledge to give you feedback.


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## Miles Lacey (Sep 28, 2020)

TheKillerBs said:


> Another thing to keep in mind is that sometimes names mean different things to different people. A Latino will see a character named Pele completely differently than a Polynesian. Even within the same broad culture, a Christian or Jew will see a reference to scripture in the name Naomi, while an anime fan might instead see a Japanese flavour to the name.



This is a good point.  Context is very important when deciding what names to use in different cultures.  Pele is the name of a Hawaiian goddess but also the name of a famous Brazilian football player.  Thus, the naming of a son Pele in a fantasy culture modelled on that of a South American culture would be perfectly acceptable but problematic if the fantasy culture was modelled on that of a traditional Hawaiian culture.

Skip.knox makes the observation_ "if you do your research, are both respectful and insightful, and if you run across a touchy topic, that you get some readers with cultural knowledge to give you feedback".  _It's good advice.


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## Son of the Roman (Sep 28, 2020)

TheKillerBs said:


> Not only is this really offencive, it's terrible for the readers' suspension of disbelief if you have a redhead from a grassy, rainy island filled with the fair folk, but they're called Abdul al-Bashir and the island is called Aokusajima.




Obviously in a lot of contexts it wouldn’t work very well, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say adapting a foreign language is offensive.


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## ascanius (Sep 29, 2020)

Maunus said:


> Fear of offending is a very good reason to self-censor. Probably the only good reason to do so, I would say. One of the very foundations of society, I would say. Offending people is not always to be avoided, but it is best that it be done deliberately and with intention and with a good understanding of the likely consequences. Offending one's readers is a bad idea if one has the intention of having them read more of one's work.



No it is a terrible reason to self-censor.  It robs people the ability to decide what offends them, because the author has already decided that this is offensive to group X.  It also give control of what an author writes to group X at the same time.  I removes the individual of their autonomy to decide what offends them and the author what to write and gives this power to a group.  This is how stereotypes are created, this is why they are bad.  Your treating an individual as an entire group.





skip.knox said:


> It isn't about the name, it's about how the name gets treated. If the rest of the story shows a pattern of cultural indifference, or appropriation, or of general ham-handedness, then the choice of name is going to be viewed as part of that pattern. A name alone isn't likely to do this.



While I mostly agree the problem I see is in our modern times the mere usage of a name is now considered appropriation, indifference, and at worst outright racism.  We are infantalizing and stereotyping entire groups of people to not offend them, I see a huge problem with this.

I think the only valid argument to not use names from other cultures is simply, like many others have already said, context.  A Norwegian setting where everyone has Arabic names breaks suspension of disbelief beyond repair in most cases and seems dumb.


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## Maunus (Sep 29, 2020)

ascanius said:


> No it is a terrible reason to self-censor.  It robs people the ability to decide what offends them, because the author has already decided that this is offensive to group X.  It also give control of what an author writes to group X at the same time.  I removes the individual of their autonomy to decide what offends them and the author what to write and gives this power to a group.  This is how stereotypes are created, this is why they are bad.  Your treating an individual as an entire group.



This is wrong in its entirety. Exercising judgement about what one things may be offensive to a group of potential readers, does not take away any control from anyone, nor does it remove anyone's autonomy. And stereotypes come exactly from a failure to consider whether one's own ideas are accurate, nuanced and respectful representations of other people or not. An author who wishes to be both a good author and an ethical human being will write with care and respect. Which sometimes requires selfcensorship. 

But I think it has been correctly stated above that this is a different, and not very useful discussion, for this topic. So I shall not pursue it further. 

I wholeheartedly agree with skip.knox above that what is important is *how* a name is used: as long as it is done respectfully, with knowledge and deliberation, one will not cause offense.


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## ascanius (Sep 29, 2020)

Maunus said:


> This is wrong in its entirety. Exercising judgement about what one things may be offensive to a group of potential readers, does not take away any control from anyone, nor does it remove anyone's autonomy.



But that was my point, what may be offensive to a group, not the individual but the group.  Its deciding that the every individual in the group finds y offensive, which is simply not true.  And the decision to self censure does rob their autonomy because each individual doesn't get to read and decide for themselves.  Honestly explain how I'm wrong.



Maunus said:


> And stereotypes come exactly from a failure to consider whether one's own ideas are accurate, nuanced and respectful representations of other people or not. An author who wishes to be both a good author and an ethical human being will write with care and respect. Which sometimes requires selfcensorship.



Exactly my point again, taking a belief about a group and saying every individual is like that is the opposite of the things listed above.  Think about what you wrote.  "A failure to consider whether one's own ideas are accurate.....of other people or not".  First your taking the idea that y is offensive to other people and not considering if this belief is accurate.....etc of each individual.  That is my problem, its taking a general belief about a group and saying everyone individual is like group.



Maunus said:


> But I think it has been correctly stated above that this is a different, and not very useful discussion, for this topic. So I shall not pursue it further.



I don't see how this is not useful.  this thread is about using names from other cultures and the worry about offending someone.  I simply take the stance that the risk of offending should not be a factor in such a decision, as I've stated before.  I have yet to hear a good logical argument against this.  And like I've said before, many times in this and other threads, there is also a difference between good writing and crap, see below.


I think the problem here is, I have a very clear idea of good writing and I put research, avoiding stereotypes, and a lot of what other people on this thread have said into the category of good quality writing.  I think writers should do a lot of what others have said but I think they should do those things to be better writers, not so they don't offend people.  For example not using the Pele for example in a pacific island setting because they did their homework, and decided its odd to have their main character named after a god within the context of said story.

Basically I think the questions should be, does the name make sense in my setting, does it work in the setting, does it work for the story, does it work with the history of the culture I am basing it off of, does it work for the culture, today, I am basing it off of?  If so, why?  If not, why?

But to simply dismiss the name because you, or I, or someone thinks a group of people will get offended I find wrong for the reasons I have stated.

I kinda think we agree in a way, but we differ on the motivations.  And why I say you..i'm not attack you, nor trying to be hostile, its just an example.
we good?


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## skip.knox (Sep 30, 2020)

Risk of offense isn't the sole issue. There's using names clumsily, such that it breaks suspension of disbelief. There's using names in such a way that it perpetuates certain stereotypes that are harmful. Focusing solely on an offended individual narrows the discussion to the point of being less than useful, especially to a new writer.

As for whether a choice works (be it a name or some other story element), there is the author to consider first, but not last and not exclusively. One's beta readers, one's editor(s), and the reading audience all have a role to play. I absolutely believe one must satisfy oneself first, and that the measure of a working story in the eyes of the author is always the unique prerogative of the author. Once that bar has been met, however, the author does need to consider audience. If thinking about whether the readers will enjoy my book, why ought I not also think about whether they will be offended by it?

No one is saying that considering a community or culture means we believe every individual within that culture believes a certain way or is sure to be offended by something. That implication can be found nowhere in what has been posted. It is valid to infer that *most* would be offended or that *many* would be offended, or even that enough would be offended that I as author want to think about making an adjustment. I might be right or wrong, but it is not foolish and it certainly does no impinge on my authorial freedom.

Lastly, focusing on individuals only misses the very concept of culture. A culture is both more and different from the sum of its people. Cultural historians can explain this in detail, for anyone interested. Cultural elements, motifs, and belief systems can be perpetuated or undermined by what artists create--books, opera, paintings, all of it. Not every author needs to become expert in every culture and time period, but that doesn't mean those who do care, those who do spend time educating themselves on cultural matters, are engaged in a fool's errand.

To the OP I say, just write it. Get feedback. Educate yourself as you believe is needful. Rewrite. IOW, treat this as you would every other aspect of your writing. A cultural landscape is as real and significant as a physical landscape.


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## A. E. Lowan (Oct 2, 2020)

Just ran across this analysis of the new Mulan on YouTube and it gives a great argument for not only why respectful representation is crucial, it makes you a better writer all around. Video is a bit long, about 35 minutes, but it's worth watching a Chinese person pick this movie apart.






As you can see, when the details are glossed over, when we don't do our homework, we can end up making little sense.


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## Estarriol (Oct 4, 2020)

My advice is to be aware that you are drawing on cultural elements. Use what you understand to be appropriate and continue writing, and if you find what you are including to be offensive then consider of it is really needed. For example you may want to draw attention to cultural issues. Even in a fantasy context, prejudices against names of other cultures could shed light on the characters' prejudice or even the reader's own prejudice.


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