# Vocab and Grammar



## ArenRax (Apr 23, 2015)

Okay I have a sort of problem.
The structure of the sentence when someone is speaking especially for more than one sentence, I have no idea when I should end  it with they said and such or if I start with that and then theres the grammer of like brow furrowing and such or Jovially I dont know when I should stick that in nor what some of it means and what it represents.

You guys might think "Why am I asking this?" Well I can get myself pretty darn confused and it can sometimes help if I can fully understand something.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Apr 23, 2015)

ArenRax said:


> The structure of the sentence when someone is speaking especially for more than one sentence, I have no idea when I should end  it with they said and such or if I start with that and then theres the grammer of like brow furrowing and such or Jovially I dont know when I should stick that in nor what some of it means and what it represents.


I'm not sure what you're asking here. The structure of this paragraph and lack of punctuation makes it difficult to follow.


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## ArenRax (Apr 23, 2015)

I know I am thoroughly confused as to how to ask what I mean clearly so people understand. Ill think on it and then re-post the question on this thread.


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## Russ (Apr 23, 2015)

An example always helps me.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Apr 23, 2015)

Russ said:


> An example always helps me.


Yes, an example would clarify this. Then we may be able to give you what you're looking for.


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## AndrewMelvin (Apr 23, 2015)

If I understand correctly, I think you're looking for phrasing like this: "[Dialogue]," [the person speaking] said. 

"The castle seems very far away," he said, his brow furrowing.
"Oh, I don't know," she replied jovially.​
If you have already made it clear who is speaking, their dialogue should normally start the sentence. However, if a new character is speaking, their name should come before their speech to show that somebody different has entered the conversation:

"The castle seems very far away," he said, his brow furrowing.
"Oh, I don't know," she replied jovially.
Frodo added, "The eagles are coming!"​
Apologies if I've misunderstood what you're asking.


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## Feo Takahari (Apr 23, 2015)

It sounds like you're talking about the difference between

"This is an example sentence," she said.

And

She said "This is an example sentence."

The short version is that "she said" at the end is the formal version. It's what you see in newspaper articles, and most novels use it as well. "She said" at the beginning is more casual, and denotes informal conversation. It's also used for short exclamations, e.g. 

She yelled "Crap!" and ran off.

I'll give more explanation and some relevant examples when I'm not on my phone--it keeps deleting my drafts.

Edit @Melvin: that part about using names to introduce new speakers is interesting to me. It makes sense, but I don't see it very often. Most of the stories that come to mind have a full non-dialogue sentence about the new character doing something, then dump their name at the end of their dialogue like usual.


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## Feo Takahari (Apr 23, 2015)

*Feo Presents: More Than You Ever Wanted to Know About Dialogue Tags*

I was going to write up a big essay, but I think I can make the point with a few examples. This is how people in real life talk:



> And then Karen said "Heather is such a bitch!" and Jasmyn got mad and said "You're a bitch too, Karen!" and . . .



This is how people talk in fiction:



> "Heather is such a bitch!" Karen said.
> 
> Jasmyn got mad. "You're a bitch too, Karen!" she said.



Seriously, the divide is immense. No matter how naturalistic the story is, and regardless of the POV used, it will almost always put "she said" at the end. The big exception is when one character is _quoting_ another character:



> "So maybe I'm a bitch," I said. "But at least I'm not a liar. You said 'I have zero interest in Mark.'"



By and large, this exception will be observed in even the most formal stories. Quotes within dialogue will almost always put the dialogue tag at the beginning. (Of course, narration in first-person POV is not the same as dialogue, so you still see a ton of dialogue tags at the end in first person. It's kind of weird when you think about it.)

Note 1: There is a rare phrasing where quotes put "she said" at the end, e.g. 



> Join the army, they said.



I'm not really sure what's up with this formulation, but it seems to be associated with bitterness and hostility. Perhaps it indicates that the speaker was "told a story"?

Note 2: I mentioned in my previous post that newspapers put "she said" at the end. TV and radio reporters do _not_ do this. They say things like



> When asked for comment, the Prime Minister said "This is a big and important sentence."



"She said" at the end does _not_ come naturally in most spoken dialects.

Note 3: When people quote themselves, they begin with "I said."

Note 4: Some speakers from unusual dialects naturally put the dialogue tag at the end, e.g.



> Good fences make good neighbors, that's what I always say.



These people are weirdos.

Note 5: It seems to be up to the author whether complete diary entries, sectioned off as their own little segments of the story, are treated as quotes or first-person narration.

Note 6: I mentioned earlier that I sometimes see short exclamations get the dialogue tag at the beginning, but every example I can think of is a quote. Can anyone think of an example that's not?


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## Reaver (Apr 23, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I'm not sure what you're asking here. The structure of this paragraph and lack of punctuation makes it difficult to follow.



Hey, it works for Cormac McCarthy.  But I hate reading his stories.

I should make a trigger challenge where everyone has to write a story in that style.


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## Nimue (Apr 23, 2015)

This may be more general than the scope of this question, but I think that if you're having trouble composing sentences or creating grammar, style rules will help, but the best way to learn is to read. Read a lot of books, written in a style similar to how you mean to write, and pay attention to how the sentences are put together.  Honestly, I don't know if there is another way to cultivate an innate sense of grammar besides reading, and time.


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## Incanus (Apr 23, 2015)

To add to Nimue's comments:  Yes, read, read, read.  Read old stuff and new.  Read amazing stuff and mediocre.  Read long things and short things.  Read different genres.  Get in a few 'classics'.   Pay attention.  Read the best stuff twice, and slowly.  Read everyday.  Then read some more.


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## wordwalker (Apr 24, 2015)

Absolutely, read.

What you're talking about is called "tags" and "beats." I usually say you have four options for each paragraph, in order of increasing descriptiveness:

no tag or beat-- okay if readers can tell who's who because the last few paragraphs have been just two people talking each in every other paragraph. If another speaker or a non-dialog paragraph breaks that pattern (or you've gone a while without tags) it's time to put tags or beats in again to reorient us.

"said" tag-- a simple "he said" keeps things clear without distracting from the dialog.

"supersaid" tag-- my word for all the "he yelled," "she said softly," and other ways to add very rough (telling instead of showing) description to a tag. More vivid but very easy to overuse, best when the line deserves just that bit of extra color and no more.

beat-- using real description instead of a tag, often a whole separate sentence in the paragraph about what someone does or how they look or sound. The most descriptive, taking the most effort and sometimes more than a paragraph deserves.

For example:

"You get it?" asked Alice. (Supersaid tag)
"Got it," said Bob. (Said tag)
"Good." (no tag-- we assume it's Alice again.)
"But what about me?" Carol flung the door open. (Beat.)
"Just use enough tags and beats to keep us all straight," Bob sighed. (Supersaid tag)


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 24, 2015)

Since folks have mentioned short examples of how to properly use tags, I'd like to add how NOT to use tags.  Here's one of the things that irks me:



> "If we go over the Misty Mountains, we'll be there by Tuesday.  I know it isn't ideal, but it's the fastest route possible this time of year," Gandalf said.


AAAAAK!  You couldn't tell me sooner who was speaking?  WTF is the point that late?  HA!

This is much better:



> "If we go over the Misty Mountains," Gandalf said, "we'll be there by Tuesday.  I know it isn't ideal, but it's the fastest route possible this time of year."



Ooh, or one of my favorites, the beat before the words, so we omit "said" entirely:



> Gandalf leaned forward, the brim of his wide hat casting his face into menacing shadow.  "If we go over the Misty Mountains, we'll be there by Tuesday.  I know it isn't ideal, but it's the fastest route possible this time of year."



And if I read your original posting right, you had a concern for people speaking for more than one line.  Do you mean paragraph?  If so, you leave off the end quote on the first paragraph and use the quotes on the next part as normal. That denotes that the same person is speaking, and that his conversation uses more than one paragraph:



> "If we go over the Misty Mountains," Gandalf said, "we'll be there by Tuesday.  I know it isn't ideal, but it's the fastest route possible this time of year.
> 
> "Don't worry about Balrogs, either.  I heard they all died out."



Best wishes!


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## Devor (Apr 24, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> And if I read your original posting right, you had a concern for people speaking for more than one line.  Do you mean paragraph?  If so, you leave off the end quote on the first paragraph and use the quotes on the next part as normal. That denotes that the same person is speaking, and that his conversation uses more than one paragraph:



This is right.  But IMO, avoid it as much as possible.  It's one of those places where just the grammar starts to break immersion.  If you have to break it into two paragraphs, try and open the next one with a dialogue beat.

_"If we go over the Misty Mountains," Gandalf said, "we'll be there by Tuesday. I know it isn't ideal, but it's the fastest route possible this time of year."_

_Gandalf leaned in and added,  "Don't worry about the Balrogs, either....."_

To me, that reads much more fluently.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 24, 2015)

yeah, I just wanted to illustrate there is a correct way to do it with the quotes.  Actually, The Lies of Locke Lamora was littered with multiple-paragraph dialogues (or monologues, sometimes, haha), and I don't usually see that sort of thing.


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## wordwalker (Apr 25, 2015)

Thanks for adding that, Caged. Delaying the tag can sabotage the whole paragraph by making the reader thinking more about who's speaking than what's going on. (Ask me about the armadillo some time.)

But Devor, I have to disagree about splitting a speaker's paragraph. Your example has enough tags to keep it clear and it uses the beat to add a fun rhythm, but it also goes against another reader expectation that every other paragraph is the same speaker. You said,



Devor said:


> _"If we go over the Misty Mountains," Gandalf said, "we'll be there by Tuesday. I know it isn't ideal, but it's the fastest route possible this time of year."_
> 
> _Gandalf leaned in and added,  "Don't worry about the Balrogs, either....."_



Just the fact that it's a second paragraph makes it feel a little like it's another person, even with the clear beat. The smoothest way is to make the beat a separate paragraph from both speeches so Gandalf is pausing and then resuming. It seems cluttered in theory, but the rhythm's actually better to make sure his _dialog_ stays on every other paragraph::



> _"If we go over the Misty Mountains," Gandalf said, "we'll be there by Tuesday. I know it isn't ideal, but it's the fastest route possible this time of year."_
> 
> _Gandalf leaned in before he finished._
> 
> _"Don't worry about the Balrogs, either....."_


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## Devor (Apr 25, 2015)

wordwalker said:


> But Devor, I have to disagree about splitting a speaker's paragraph. Your example has enough tags to keep it clear and it uses the beat to add a fun rhythm, but it also goes against another reader expectation that every other paragraph is the same speaker.



I don't know, maybe that's a good tip.  But at least with this example I would find the dialogue beat on its own to be pretty distracting by itself.  And I have noticed and been distracted by it in books that I've read.

Expectation or not, "Gandalf leaned in before he finished" is simply not a complete paragraph.


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## wordwalker (Apr 25, 2015)

True enough. Not the perfect example.

Also, I'll add that Caged's first thought of just one paragraph going straight to the next also works. It's more dialog with less description amid it, but it's the right effect when people just make longer speeches. Stories that use that put the reader more on alert for the quotation mark trick that show it's coming, so nobody gets confused, and the lack of tags lets reader (and writer) concentrate on just the dialog. For a less talky story (or moment), I'd rather break it up with something, though.


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## Devor (Apr 25, 2015)

Yeah . . . . I mean there's only so much you can do to avoid proper grammar.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 25, 2015)

I found that in a few scenes, where one character had to explain several things to another character (yes, I already trimmed it so it was necessary, interesting, and flowed well), I had resulting fidgety characters if I threw in too many beats that didn't have a purpose or whatever.  It was better to just give them three paragraphs of dialogue and be done with it.  

When I read The Lies of Locke Lamora, I was pleasantly surprised to see that's exactly how long conversations are handled there, too.  That made me much less nervous about those few instances where I just had talking and less movement than ordinarily.


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## wordwalker (Apr 26, 2015)

So true. Like any writing, tags are about what something's priorities are. If one moment isn't that interesting except the dialog itself, or how that sets the stage for the Good Stuff coming up, anything more than a simple Said or no tag is distracting. ("Fidgety," well put.) 

Adding to that is the writer's own style, the pattern they're falling into. The more a writer's interested in just the spoken words, the more reason to skip the less useful beats.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Apr 26, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> I found that in a few scenes, where one character had to explain several things to another character (yes, I already trimmed it so it was necessary, interesting, and flowed well), I had resulting fidgety characters if I threw in too many beats that didn't have a purpose or whatever.  It was better to just give them three paragraphs of dialogue and be done with it.
> 
> When I read The Lies of Locke Lamora, I was pleasantly surprised to see that's exactly how long conversations are handled there, too.  That made me much less nervous about those few instances where I just had talking and less movement than ordinarily.


So true. This is the reason I think writers should be avid, if not ravenous, readers.


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## ArenRax (Apr 27, 2015)

In what context or situation would I use put said at the beggining,middle, or end, and in what situation would I use Yelled,happily, or Jovially and other words?
This can confuse me as I dislike putting "said" all the time at the end of what someone says.
And is there a source to get help describing fight scenes?
I can describe Magic being used in fights but when it is one against one in a sword fight or with blades or a stave I have trouble making the scene readable and not confusing.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 27, 2015)

Those are sort of personal questions to answer.  I've been known to use all of them.  My reasons are for flow.  

Her father's voice boomed through the door. "Get in here!  I want an answer."

"Get in here," her father called through the door.  "I want an answer."

"Get in here! I want an answer," her father yelled, threatening to rattle the door off its hinges with his anger.

All of those work and they each impart a little bit of different feeling.  It'll only depend on what you like and what sort of tone you're setting.  It's subtly different, but over the scope of a whole scene, you don't want to constantly use only one format for relaying conversation.  Does that help to clarify?

About sword fighting, I wrote an article (hopefully it helps), in which I compare writing an intimate scene to writing a fight scene.  While the advice is how to use fight scene format to engage the reader in a love scene (for those folks who aren't quite comfortable with writing intimacy or portraying adult themes), it's got the right elements in it to show you how to accomplish a fight as well.  Basically, I've written my share of both, but I tried to make the task of writing love less daunting.  

Love And Death | Mythic Scribes

If you want some good examples of fight scenes, check out some of the challenges entries.  We have a ton of material up there and the MFMA challenge is a great one because they're all duels between two characters.  Hopefully that gets you started at least.


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## wordwalker (Apr 28, 2015)

When to put the the tag/beat in the paragraph depends on the rhythm you want. Often the speaker is taking a moment's pause to think between sentences or after part of one (you'll hear it if you say the line aloud), and putting the tag there fits. But like we've said before, be careful putting it more than say a few lines down in the paragraph; waiting so long to know who's speaking irritates the reader unless it's obvious. (And if it is obvious, the only reason to tag that paragraph at all is when it's a beat or supersaid that gives extra information.)

As to what to tag it with... I think the first step is to keep things varied, between the four options of no tag/ said/ supersaid/ beat. (Some people will say the first step is to never use supersaids and always trust the basic Said. I think that's overstated, because Said *can* be overused if you forget the other options. But it is true that supersaids get overused much faster than the other three.) 

Then, try to think how important the paragraph is compared to the others near it; the more important ones deserve the further oomph of the more descriptive tags (supersaid or beat) and the plainer ones the simpler ones. Though it isn't just about overall importance; one paragraph might need more detailed tags just to clarify its nonverbal side, or less detail to keep the focus just on the words. Or a minor paragraph that's more about buildup or buffer before The Good Stuff might need a beat to slow it down, then as dialog speeds up tags get simpler to pick up the pace--but _bang!_ the key moments still get a beat for emphasis. What you really want is a variety and a combination of tag types that works.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Apr 28, 2015)

I try to use action tags and the word "said" primarily, where "said" is used just to keep the reader grounded in the changing speakers if the pace needs to be faster.

I don't mind the use of words like "yelled" when I read (unless overdone), but I'm wary of them as a writer.

I want the dialogue to carry a sense of the moment, emotion intrinsic to the scene, without having to tell the reader that is what's happening. If I catch myself relying on words like "yelled", I'll take a look at the dialogue and rewrite to better convey the emotion on its own, or connect it with a character's action that signifies some sense of emotion.


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## Trick (Apr 28, 2015)

To any Mods reading, Please fix the title of this thread! I'm begging you... on my knees, with tears and snot running down my face from the pain caused by that misplaced letter a... typos like that are my kryptonite. It may kill me.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Apr 28, 2015)

Trick said:


> To any Mods reading, Please fix the title of this thread! I'm begging you... on my knees, with tears and snot running down my face from the pain caused by that misplaced letter a... typos like that are my kryptonite. It may kill me.



Done.

/10 char


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## Trick (Apr 28, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Done.



Air has returned to my lungs, my tears have dried and I feel hale once more. In gratitude for my life I say, three cheers T.A.S.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Apr 28, 2015)

Trick said:


> ...I feel hail once more.



LOL... gonna make you sweat this one a bit.


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## Trick (Apr 28, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> LOL... gonna make you sweat this one a bit.



With me still recovering from that long lasting typo a, I am less ashamed than I would normally be but still... 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






(Of course I could always claim that I had lost my ability to feel precipitation and you returned it with your heroic typo correction but why dig a deeper hole?)


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 29, 2015)

Yeah, I can ignore title typos for a while, but if the thread sticks around a week...it's a bit like when your fingernail gets smashed.  It's ugly for a few days, but there comes a moment you know it's time to go.  And go it must.


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## Reaver (Apr 29, 2015)

Trick said:


> and I feel *hale* once more.



You meant hale as in 'hale and hearty", right? No typo there so you're off the proverbial hook.


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## Trick (Apr 29, 2015)

Reaver said:


> You meant hale as in 'hale and hearty", right? No typo there so you're off the proverbial hook.


  Actually, it did say hail before, I fixed it 

Accidental edit by TAS: At the risk of derailing further, I'd like to point out for your enjoyment, Trick.... Reaver has my favorite typo of all time on MS when he referred to Steerpike as Steerpile. 

Still makes me laugh.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 29, 2015)

Reaver's the king of typos.  He keeps hitting the asterisk button when he writes stories.  Sometimes whole sentences are riddled with them


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## T.Allen.Smith (Apr 29, 2015)

Trick said:


> Actually, it did say hail before, I fixed it
> At the risk of derailing further, I'd like to point out for your enjoyment, Trick.... Reaver has my favorite typo of all time on MS when he referred to Steerpike as Steerpile.
> 
> Still makes me laugh.



Lol... I just realized I hit "edit" instead of "quote". Sorry for assimilating your post like that, Trick.


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## Trick (Apr 29, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> At the risk of derailing further, I'd like to point out for your enjoyment, Trick.... Reaver has my favorite typo of all time on MS when he referred to Steerpike as Steerpile.
> 
> Still makes me laugh.



I nearly blew a mouthful of burrito across my desk when I read that.  Thank you for sharing it.




T.Allen.Smith said:


> Lol... I just realized I hit "edit" instead of "quote". Sorry for assimilating your post like that, Trick.



It's a little Borg of you but no harm done.


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## ArenRax (Apr 30, 2015)

I don't even know how that typo got there I mean I typed correctly(or thought I did) and I guess I just didn't ever really read it but I'm pretty sure I noticed it like a few days ago but by then I didn't really "think" of anything when I saw it but now I shall forever remember that I can have Moderator fix it.
Thank you for fixing it!


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 30, 2015)

I accidentally "borged" one time when I was on my friend's nano account and posted my own personal story woes.  Unfortunately there, you can't mod-power the posting.

Can we coin that as a new word?  I think it needs to exist, since there isn't a better way of saying it.

Borged: (v) *borgd*: to use another person's account on the internet for one's own personal comments.  To accidentally or intentionally represent oneself as another on internet forums.

haha.


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## buyjupiter (May 2, 2015)

There's an alternate way of constructing the dialogue tag, but I wouldn't use it except in extremely rare cases as it's antiquated nowadays:

"This is a bit of dialogue," said I.

You see it in more poetry, "Nevermore," quoth the Raven, for example.

And you still very occasionally see it in dialogue as: 

"Something witty, *says I*." 

Although this has mainly dropped out of common usage unless a British TV show (I hear it more here than in US shows) wants to make a point of non-London dialect (usually Cornish/Scottish) and/or old person and/or show is set in Dickensian England. I was very young the last time I heard someone use the "says I" construction in person . 

The "says you" construction is still around, but it is being replaced (at least in the US) by "that's what she said" more and more.

For example:

_"I wouldn't press the red button, it might lead to very bad things," the boy said.

"Says you," I said, pressing the button._


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