# Is this fantasy race design offensive?



## Jabrosky (Mar 24, 2012)

I've started a sci-fi story set in a parallel world where humans and dinosaurs coexist. This world's native human populations are reproductively compatible with Earth humans but they have jet-black skin and yellow eyes. They look like this:








I meant this particular character to be beautiful and sympathetic, but I've had people on other writing forums complain that her design is offensive and stereotypical. Honestly I don't see the problem; while her appearance is definitely tribal-influenced, her race isn't meant to represent any real Earth ethnicity and I do intend to portray them as realistically as possible. Why are people finding it offensive?


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## Queshire (Mar 24, 2012)

Uh.... it's because whether you intend it or not, we can't help but see a generic primiative, tribal black woman. Readers are stupid. They'll see things you never intended. Your story could be as anti-racists as it comes, but somebody is going to glean something from the whole yellow-eye black skin description. My suggestion is to give them a skin color that doesn't appear in nature, make them seem less tribal like, or just not mention skin color at all. Is skin color an important element of your story? If not, then you'd be saving yourself a whole lot of trouble just skipping over it.


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## Steerpike (Mar 24, 2012)

Jabrosky, no matter what you do you are bound to offend someone, somewhere. I would brush it off and just write the story and race as you intended it.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 24, 2012)

Queshire said:


> Is skin color an important element of your story?


The planned antagonists in my story are Nazis who want to brutally conquer the natives, so yes, it _is_ important that the natives look very different from the Nordic ideal. Furthermore, I actually do have a rationale for the natives' black complexions: their world receives much more ultraviolet radiation than ours does and therefore they need a lot of melanin.

The natives won't all be tribal though. Some of them have civilizations on technological par with precolonial African kingdoms like ancient Egypt and Nubia.


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## Leif GS Notae (Mar 24, 2012)

Well, I suppose the rule of thumb is if you change the skin color to something unearthly and apply it to the story, would it change anything? If they were blue or green skinned, does it change or alter the story any? Probably not.

This is a new world where gut instinct and reaction overrule anything else. If you are prepared to defend the story from people who react in a heartbeat, then more power to you. 

If you want to stem the tide a little, I would say mix it up and have all skin colors involved. If you are angling on Nazis dominating tribespeople, they exterminated light skin people as well for being non-Aryan (not the only reason, but it didn't help). If you show diversity in your oppression, it should lessen the blow from instant reactions.

Hope that helps. Good luck.


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## JCFarnham (Mar 24, 2012)

Yesh, its be said before but some people are ridiculously easy to offend, or ... actually _enjoy_ being offended by something so they can argue for the sake of it. Fact is I can tell you can defend your reasons for their appearence. Just be confident and people should respect that.

The worst thing you could do is stereotype this race into the black-and-tribal box and have little reason for it. You on the other hand have a reason for it to be so in the story. And anyway, I'm sorry but the world is a diverse place, people worry too much. As if even _mentioning_ people who have a different skin colour is a henous crime. PC has it's uses, but people are what they are, you know. _You_ aren't meaning to portray them as horrible people so there shouldn't be a problem.

Some sod would probably pick on the worst example of your race just to be controversial, but _you_ know its a load of rubbish don't you. There are good people and bad people in all creeds of homo sapiens.


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## Amanita (Mar 24, 2012)

> The natives won't all be tribal though. Some of them have civilizations on technological par with precolonial African kingdoms like ancient Egypt and Nubia.


Honestly, I don't see what's supposed to be wrong with something like that. Especially if your dark-skinned natives are the good guys and not a barbaric, cruel, primitive group of people that needs enlightenment from superior groups to stop sacrificing virgins or anything like that. 
But I'm white myself, therefore I might not be the right person to ask. In another forum, I did see to what length American groups representing various minorities go with being offended at almost anything so I can see where you're coming from. (I'm wondering if should avoid mentioning my main character's skin colour as well.)



> If you are angling on Nazis dominating tribespeople, they exterminated light skin people as well for being non-Aryan


As well? Almost only if I'm allowed to claim that. Most victims of the Nazis where Jews and Eastern Europeans. I haven't met any Jews but with Polish and Russian people there's no visible difference to Germans at all. Racism doesn't always have to do with skin colour, many of the worst crimes against humanity have happend among people who don't look so obviously different at all. Japanese war crimes against Koreans and Chinese, the crimes in the former Yugoslawian countries, the genocide in Rwanda...
Dark-skinned invaders subjugating dark-skinned natives would be offensive to some people too though, I assume.

If your characters are human and live in a place with high UV-radiation, a dark skin tone is the logical consequence. If they're not human, they can have any other protecting skin pigment of course... The red and blue colours in some vegetables have such properties as well, I believe.


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## Devor (Mar 24, 2012)

JCFarnham said:


> Yesh, its be said before but some people are ridiculously easy to offend, or ... actually _enjoy_ being offended by something so they can argue for the sake of it. Fact is I can tell you can defend your reasons for their appearence. Just be confident and people should respect that.



I think the weirdest part with PC allegations is that, while people often call something offensive, the number of people who actually say _I'm offended_ is usually very small, even when they're asked directly.  People don't like to be offended, but they do like to be outraged.

However, Jabrosky, you're in the business of reader impact, and you need to be in control of what impact your readers are having to your work.  Something like this might risk taking away that control and getting in the way of your ability to deliver the real impact of your story.  Just be aware.


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## Leif GS Notae (Mar 24, 2012)

Amanita said:


> As well? Almost only if I'm allowed to claim that. Most victims of the Nazis where Jews and Eastern Europeans. I haven't met any Jews but with Polish and Russian people there's no visible difference to Germans at all. Racism doesn't always have to do with skin colour, many of the worst crimes against humanity have happend among people who don't look so obviously different at all. Japanese war crimes against Koreans and Chinese, the crimes in the former Yugoslawian countries, the genocide in Rwanda...
> Dark-skinned invaders subjugating dark-skinned natives would be offensive to some people too though, I assume.



That was my point. They were not Germans, they were not "pure" so they had to be eliminated. However, their skin color was the same, so it wasn't based off JUST skin tone.

This is a topic we will take offline since it hijacks the thread.

As far as being overly PC, it is what it is. If you want to operate in this day and age, you must expect over sensitivity for something like this. Logic does not overrule gut reaction. If you make a bad impression, you are going to be saddled with it thanks to this modern age of instant communication and social networks. This isn't something logic can override. If you want to continue with the story, just be prepared to fight for it.


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## Devor (Mar 24, 2012)

Leif GS Notae said:


> That was my point. They were not Germans, they were not "pure" so they had to be eliminated. However, their skin color was the same, so it wasn't based off JUST skin tone.



I think what Amanita was saying is that, while the Nazis were racist to the extreme, the actual genocides they committed during the war weren't based _at all_ on skin tone.  The atrocities were based solely on heritage, culture and behavior.

I mean, for all of their talk about the great Aryan race and their plans for eugenics, the Japanese were still able to become honorary Aryans, after all.


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## Ghost (Mar 24, 2012)

Jabrosky said:


> I meant this particular character to be beautiful and sympathetic, but I've had people on other writing forums complain that her design is offensive and stereotypical. [...] Why are people finding it offensive?



I don't know. Since my view on your world is influenced by what I read before I saw the pictures. I remember being put off by the pictures at first, but I got over it because I knew your intentions. I know you're trying to show black people, and black women specifically, in a positive light because you care. It's very different from pandering or being PC for the sake of it, and I think it's commendable as long as your Nazi dudes aren't throwaway "racist guy," and they're well thought out.

I'm trying to think of what bothered me when I first saw the pictures. It may be the style. I don't mean to offend your sensibilites, but perhaps a more realistic style of drawing instead of a cartoonish one would read differently. It might be part of why people don't take it seriously. There's also the loincloth, headband, bones, and facepaint combo. It can go a little "generic tribal person" which isn't even about the skin color. With a medium skin tone and I'd think "Amazon native" or something similar. (But she appears to be wearing camo. ) My suggestion is to look more widely at the types of clothes people in similar climates wear and take into account your people need their clothes to be suitable for their purposes and that they may have other resources to make something new. I'm not sure how thick dino skin is, but there might be other animals they use.

I'd actually be more offended if your tribesmen had a funny skin color. I'd wonder why the Nazi guys got to be white but the black folks had to be psychedelic. I suppose the Nazis could be orange, but changing the skin of either group so it's not a normal human skin color would feel like a poorly constructed cover that doesn't hide your intentions. There are times when I suggest people distance themselves from real world counterparts, but I don't think it would work in this case unless your novel has an allegorical tone.

I need to stop rambling. Keep fighting the good fight, Jabrosky.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 24, 2012)

Ouroboros said:


> I don't know. Since my view on your world is influenced by what I read before I saw the pictures. I remember being put off by the pictures at first, but I got over it because I knew your intentions. I know you're trying to show black people, and black women specifically, in a positive light because you care. It's very different from pandering or being PC for the sake of it, and I think it's commendable as long as your Nazi dudes aren't throwaway "racist guy," and they're well thought out.



Having talked about this some more elsewhere on the Internet, I realized that there's something wrong with my plot: while the bad guys are Nazis, the protagonists are Americans of various colors (the native woman in my OP drawing is a love interest for one of the Americans). That could be interpreted as sending the patronizing message that people of color need white or otherwise non-native saviors. Of course that isn't my intention, but since I actually hate "white savior" stories I don't want my story to come across as one.



> I'm trying to think of what bothered me when I first saw the pictures. It may be the style. I don't mean to offend your sensibilites, but perhaps a more realistic style of drawing instead of a cartoonish one would read differently.


Unfortunately that happens to be my most realistic style. I need to take art classes badly.


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## Amanita (Mar 24, 2012)

> Having talked about this some more elsewhere on the Internet, I realized that there's something wrong with my plot:


I really don't want to be offensive towards you now, but only reading what you've written here, you might be right. If you haven't done so already, you might want to research what Nazies where actually doing (first and foremost "purifying" their own country's population and gaining more land for them relatively close by and in roughly similar climatic regions) and what kind of reasons led people to actually fight for new territories in far away lands with completely different conditions. What were their reasons to treat the natives the way they did? Economic reasons? Religious reasons? Something entirely different? The problems this brings to conquerors as well as the conquered groups are interesting as well. How would the "nordic" people deal with the weather and radiation on your planet?
Maybe you've done all this already and I'm reading your posts wrong, but if your plot actually amounts to "evil group of pale-skinned people attacks innocent group of dark-skinned people because they're evil and racist and good Americans safe innocent native people unable to defend themselves" a few reconsiderations might make it better and less offensive.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 24, 2012)

I've decided to give my story a complete makeover:

The native girl illustrated in the OP is the protagonist. She belongs to a guild of dinosaur huntresses similar to the Amazons of Dahomey in Earth's history. She does have a visiting Earth anthropologist for a love interest, but beyond that the Earthlings play a relatively minor role; the story centers on the natives and their world. Hopefully that will help me avert most of the tropes associated with colonist/native stories.


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## Devor (Mar 24, 2012)

Jabrosky said:


> I've decided to give my story a complete makeover:
> 
> The native girl illustrated in the OP is the protagonist. She belongs to a guild of dinosaur huntresses similar to the Amazons of Dahomey in Earth's history. She does have a visiting Earth anthropologist for a love interest, but beyond that the Earthlings play a relatively minor role; the story centers on the natives and their world. Hopefully that will help me avert most of the tropes associated with colonist/native stories.



Another way to avoid the offensives trope would be bringing some portion of the conflict to the civilized society so that both groups need saving. For instance, if instead of Germany it was occupied France being forced to support the war.


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## Saigonnus (Mar 24, 2012)

They kind of resemble Amazons with darker skin... Think of it on a geologic scale. Dark skin is accurate if they live near the equator of the planet where the sun is stronger or if the ozone layer and atmosphere is thinner, and depending on time frame the story is set in, their clothing would probably be different. That seems typical of fantasy, where woman are portrayed with wearing next to nothing. Chain mail bikinis wouldn't protect anything, and they'd be unrealistic in any fantasy setting. That outfit is the same kind of thing. Wrap-around skirts/sari's would be more probable in a "native" society depending on a woman's role in the societal structure. If she is a hunter for example, that "skirt" she wearing could hinder her movements.l  

Even if you don't ever write it into the story, fill out as much about the race as you can. These include what they look like, clothing, rituals, daily life, spiritual beliefs, combat abilities and typical weapons and maybe even what kind of shelters they live in and what they use for different things. This could flesh out your "race" and given them a sense of depth.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 24, 2012)

Saigonnus said:


> If she is a hunter for example, that "skirt" she wearing could hinder her movements.


What kind of clothing would suit a huntress living in a very hot climate? Should she go nude?

Actually, I wouldn't mind drawing a nude huntress, come to think of it...


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## Queshire (Mar 24, 2012)

I only skimmed over the posts since mine, anyways, I suggest just using vaguer terms like pale or fairer, thus letting the reader decide for themselves whether it refers to black/caucasians or caucasians/albinos. Also, Nazi's are a bit... over used. I mean, if you're going for that old pulp action feel then it's fine, but I suggest changing it up a bit.


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## gowph3ar (Mar 26, 2012)

Seems like a typical tribal person, anyone offended by this is just being rude and has never spent any time watching the discovery channel. This is how people were/ how some are now, get over it people.


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## The Blue Lotus (Mar 26, 2012)

Jabrosky said:


> I've started a sci-fi story set in a parallel world where humans and dinosaurs coexist. This world's native human populations are reproductively compatible with Earth humans but they have jet-black skin and yellow eyes. They look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Umm, I'm not black and I can see how that could be offencive to someone who is.
The problem runs deeper than many may realize. Partly because we are so good at forgetting how badly we have treated specific groups of humans. 

Take this old "joke" for instance. "Black as night and dumb as a door knob..." It's not funny... not even a little bit. 
The African people have been called everything from Monkey Fuc%ers to Ni&&ers. 
Nigr is the Latin word for Black. Some people are extreamly sensitive to these facts, either due to a PC point of view or because they have some connection to the slave days. 

Ask yourself this, do you enjoy being called a "cracker"? I'm assuming you are "white". 
Now assume you are Hispanic would you like to be called a "wetback"? or have someone depict a Hispanc as a taco eating, potbellied, naptaking, lazy fart? 

Some of the reasons you are getting so much flack is

 A) the skin color which really you don't need to change some people have more pigmentation than others that is a fact of life. 

I think your issue is more about 
B) The clothing 

and 

C) The "tribal" paint. 
It screams African Tribal person and not in a good way.

The yellow eyes remind me of jaundice as well... that has nothing to do with your question I just thought I'd point it out. 


I would keep the skin and lose the clothing and face paint. To me that is where I see the "Offence."

In the end it is going to be your call, perhaps you should just not show a picture? Let them build the image in their own mind. Thus avoiding any conflict. But then you would have to watch your descriptions so you are not painting the same picture mentaly.  
Hope it helps.


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## Ghost (Mar 26, 2012)

The Blue Lotus said:


> I think your issue is more about
> B) The clothing
> 
> and
> ...



Yeah, I'm in agreement that those are what's rubbing people the wrong way. I have some more concrete suggestions now. Nix the headband. Nix the necklace thingy because it reminds me of neck rings. I also question the earlobe stretching. I don't think her eyes look jaundiced, but the yellow irises might read that way to some folks.

I'll again suggest looking at dinosaurs and other animals and seeing what you can salvage from them in terms of clothing. Take what's important to her culture and translate it to clothes. For example, if hunting is most important, she might clothe herself in a way that she can carry more weapons.

You can have something like face paint, neck rings or earlobe stretching, but you have to explain why it's done in her culture. When you do all of them, it looks like an indigenous people mash up. I think that's why I saw "generic tribal person" earlier.

This may be just me--in fact, it probably is just me--but your girl has no support. I can't imagine running around in a tube top without it slipping off during my adventures. If she has to wear a top, it should be one that will stay on.


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## Xanados (Mar 26, 2012)

I haven't read this entire thread, but I feel that, as many have already said, this could be offensive.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 26, 2012)

Some native Americans used animal heads and horns in their outfits... don't hate me I'm not very knowledgeable about it all.... but what if you had her dressed with like dinosaur claws or like a dinosaur head helmet type thing.  That could be really unique to her world and not look anything like what we can relate to on earth.
Actually, I feel a bit more offended by the mention of Nazis than the tribal planet and culture.  I think we all know that primitive people the world over used natural things to clothe themselves and some are still quite scantily clad.  Nazis are over-done in our whole culture, and like the one big overriding evil that we can all remember because our grandparents fought in that war.  Maybe rethink them a little.  Couldn't they as easily be Roman legions or something.  The great part about Romans is that I don't think anyone thinks of them as "evil".  They were probably hated more than Nazis in their day (what with the taking native people as slaves and forcing their religion on people.... but they encompassed North Africa, Asia Minor, all the way up to England.  They were not one culture, and that might read as less black vs. white.....


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 26, 2012)

Racism is a fact of life.  I am thankful I grew up in a place where racial tension was not high, but it is what it is.  While I personally believe there are crap-heads in every race, and I technically view nothing wrong with identifying different people by their skin color in writing, it can be counterproductive to make one group good and another bad.  It could be quite harmful to your story.  While I appreciate what you're trying to do, it's hard to override several thousand years of human history.  I have used eye color and magical abilities and some other traits to develop a racism in my stories, but I would just caution you to consider closely how your material will be taken by people who might not be so open-minded and sympathetic as you are.  It would be a shame if your story was not told because some viewed it as "too risky" for a market which encompasses many people of various backgrounds.

I don't know if any of that is helpful, because all I know about your story I have read on this thread, but I hope you in the end find something which makes your story shine and makes readers sympathize with your characters.  Best wishes.


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## Devor (Mar 26, 2012)

anihow said:


> Actually, I feel a bit more offended by the mention of Nazis than the tribal planet and culture.



I'm really glad you said that because I feel the same way.

I don't understand how leopard skins, face paint and earlobe stretching can be offensive when they were in fact historically done.  Combining them into a single culture - done well, in a fantasy world - _could_ be horribly stereotypical, or it could serve to speak for a multitude of cultures at once.

The thing is, it's _the attitude of the novel_ that can be offensive or complimentary towards the people involved, even above the intentions of the author, and that attitude is just hard to see clearly from a bad drawing and a few super-preliminary paragraphs.  To be honest, though, Jabrosky, I do think you need to give it considerable amounts of consideration and research before you reach the point you're trying to achieve.

But I think you're using "Nazi" to reflect an attitude, and that attitude _is_ stereotypical.  Even the Nazis had complexities and motivations and a history which in their mind justified their actions.

I think you need for your work to reach a level of complexity and involvement where you no longer refer to your characters and their societies by the statements you mean to make about their real-world counterparts.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 26, 2012)

I'm definitely going to ditch the Nazis and give the character a major makeover in response to the critiques I've received here. I'll get back to you guys once I've thought deeply about the whole thing.


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## The Blue Lotus (Mar 26, 2012)

Ouroboros said:


> Yeah, I'm in agreement that those are what's rubbing people the wrong way. I have some more concrete suggestions now. Nix the headband. Nix the necklace thingy because it reminds me of neck rings. I also question the earlobe stretching. I don't think her eyes look jaundiced, but the yellow irises might read that way to some folks.
> 
> I'll again suggest looking at dinosaurs and other animals and seeing what you can salvage from them in terms of clothing. Take what's important to her culture and translate it to clothes. For example, if hunting is most important, she might clothe herself in a way that she can carry more weapons.
> 
> ...



I could be ok with the neck ring... its fugly as is the ear lobe thingy. But that is just me on a personal level. 

Here is a  fun fact. Historicly well endowed or not women we not hunters. Think about everything we know about cave men. Men Hunt, Women Gather. In fact there is a whole Vegas show dealing with that subject that is really really funny called "Defending the Caveman"  The few women who did hunt found that their "love bumps" would get in the way... 

Men don't understand this because they have never given themselves a black eye on the treadmill. That and it hurts when they bounce too much... Cave women delt with this issue by cutting a length of leather and tying it around their lady bits. Many of them did not wear clothing because when hunting it would cause them to trip, or the smell of the clothing would tip off the prey. 

Men however needed to wear something to keep their own parts from dragging in underbrush and the like. I can't say how that would feel but I imagine it is rather unpleasent.

Hope that helps a little.


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## The Blue Lotus (Mar 26, 2012)

Devor said:


> I'm really glad you said that because I feel the same way.
> 
> I don't understand how leopard skins, face paint and earlobe stretching can be offensive when they were in fact historically done.  Combining them into a single culture - done well, in a fantasy world - _could_ be horribly stereotypical, or it could serve to speak for a multitude of cultures at once.
> 
> ...



You know I used to work in a nursing home, there was a nice old man there and when Veterans day came round they ommited his man from the list of people who had served. The list included people who had served in every other armed service you can think of world wide but, he had served with the German Army during WWII.  

As I said he was a sweetheart, he and I were talking one day as I helped him down the hall and he told me how much it hurt him to be singled out like that because he was forced to serve or his own family would have been in danger. 

It broke my heart, and I fought to have his name restored. It ended up costing me my job in the end I was ok with that because the job stunk... But his name was added to the plauqe that hung in the hallway. 

We can't assume we know the reasons behind a persons actions unless we ask them. I learned then that there is more to the Nazi group than meets the eye. There are shades of grey in a black and white history. 

That being said, if he included a ultra militant group but gave them a different name, and showed the more complex nature of why one would chose to be associated with that group. It could be a useful tool to bring light to some of the more forgotton people in these situations.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 26, 2012)

I've thought more about this whole issue and I want to respond to this earlier post:



Ouroboros said:


> I know you're trying to show black people, and black women specifically, in a positive light because you care.



This has been my major motivator for writing anything in the last several years. I've always been a creative type who enjoyed drawing and writing, but ever since I became interested in racial politics I have hoped to use my creativity as an outlet for activism. However, I am finding that this very agenda is interfering with my storytelling. It's hard to create multidimensional characters when your underlying desire is to uplift an oppressed people and counter negative stereotypes.

I don't know if I should continue with this. I do find black women attractive and I have grown an interest in African culture, so I'll probably still write stories about that subject matter, but I can't let my politics interfere with my creativity. I need to relax.


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## Penpilot (Mar 26, 2012)

I think what's maybe rubbing people the wrong way is just the picture, not the idea behind it. IMHO The style of the picture is a bit of a caricature. I'm assuming this is a prose story, so as long as you keep to portraying these people three dimensionally, as good, bad, and all shades in between, you should be OK.


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## Ghost (Mar 27, 2012)

'Kay, I had a big ole response but it descended into half-lecture half-brainstorming session. You can message me if you'd like, Jabrosky. I'd be happy to talk with you about your goals and setbacks as far as this work goes. We can toss some ideas around, but I figure it should be up to you, especially since this thread was originally about the artwork and not the overall themes of your WiP. 



Jabrosky said:


> I don't know if I should continue with this. [...] I need to relax.



I think you should take a break from thinking about it or making major decisions for a few days. And, yes, relax for a while. Doubts are normal and getting feedback is great, but there's no need to drop something because people questioned a few aspects. I don't think anyone said they *hated* your idea and would stomp on your book if they saw it in print. There were simply few things people are concerned about. The kinks can be ironed out when you're not as stressed.


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## Devor (Mar 27, 2012)

Jabrosky said:


> However, I am finding that this very agenda is interfering with my storytelling. It's hard to create multidimensional characters when your underlying desire is to uplift an oppressed people and counter negative stereotypes.



I think you're just trying too hard.  If you let the agenda dissolve behind your story and really just fall in love with your characters, I think you should find most these issues correcting themselves.


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## Steerpike (Mar 27, 2012)

Jabrosky:

Two things:

1) Don't compromise your underlying vision for the story unless you are absolutely convinced you've gone wrong. I don't believe that to be the case with this race you've created, but you are the only person who can ultimately make that determination; and

2) Let me suggest that the criticism of your race reflects more of a societal bias (which probably was once rooted in racism, though it isn't necessarily so anymore) than your actual race does. I did some searching on black tribal cultures prior to writing this. I saw face paint, I saw arm bands, and I saw any number of features that you might include in your race and be criticized for it. These were images of people celebrating their own cultural heritage by donning traditional garb, face make-up, or what have you. So if the ultimate gist of the criticism of your race is that your black-skinned people have to look and act more like white westerners, I'd be quite leery of that advice indeed, and I'd question why it is that indigenous cultural heritage is being devalued in the thread.

What you are essentially being told is that traditional black tribal culture is somehow inherently sub-standard, and that your race needs to be a bit more like us white westerners.


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## Queshire (Mar 27, 2012)

I'm all for writer integrality, the sanctity of the story, and all that rot, but I think it's important to remember that one of our goals as writers is to have people read our writing and more importantly, pay us for our writing. If you're a super famous writer you can do all kinds of risky things, shaking up the writing world, but considering you're here on this forum, I'm pretty sure you AREN'T a super famous writer. It just seems to me that the risk of what you're doing simply out weighs any possible benefits.

I won't say you can't do it, or that you shouldn't do it. That goes against the very basis of a writer, but I sress, be very, very careful.

One thing I suggest, if it doesn't go completely against your world, is to have the tribal people not be human at all. I mean, it's fantasy, so why not? Maybe have them be Orcs or some type of dinosaur-like humanoi. That way you can do the whole thing without getting into the squickiness of skin color.


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## Steerpike (Mar 27, 2012)

Queshire said:


> One thing I suggest, if it doesn't go completely against your world, is to have the tribal people not be human at all. I mean, it's fantasy, so why not? Maybe have them be Orcs or some type of dinosaur-like humanoi. That way you can do the whole thing without getting into the squickiness of skin color.



Once again this gets closer to being offensive or racially-biased than anything the OP is proposing. What you're basically saying is that intelligent humans can't be portrayed as tribal, or wearing face paint, or other costumes or ornamentation associated with tribal cultures. Instead, if they're going to be tribal they have to be reduced to orcs or some kind of dinosaur men?

I'm sure the people around the world who don traditional garb and use face paint, jewelry, and the like to celebrate the rich heritage of an indigenous tribal culture would really appreciate that.


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## Queshire (Mar 27, 2012)

The fact is, they simply aren't going to care if they're not human. However, they WILL care about black skinned tribal humans, I can assure you that.


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## Steerpike (Mar 27, 2012)

Queshire said:


> The fact is, they simply aren't going to care if they're not human. However, they WILL care about black skinned tribal humans, I can assure you that.



Depends on how they are depicted. If they are depicted as dim-witted animals, then people will care. If they are depicted as intelligent humans, and shown in a positive manner, no rational person is going to have a problem with it.

This is the problem with the PC mindset. It often relies on fictions, at the expense of reality, and in so doing is also often more insulting to reality than the situation it seeks to address.

If this sort of thing wasn't so prevalent in society, it would be comical. No one will dispute that there have been dark-skinned tribal humans in the history of the planet. But for PC reasons, people are advising that an author can't have a fantasy analog of those tribal humans because it will be offensive. Instead, the tribal beings should be orcs.

Think for a moment about what you are saying about indigenous tribal peoples throughout history, and the inherent cultural biases and negative value judgments that underpin your viewpoint. Here's a novel idea - how about we recognize that these tribal peoples, whether they wore face paint or other adornments or not, were every bit as smart as you and I, and that they had long-standing and complex cultures and mythologies extending back over great periods of time. And how about we recognize that you don't have to turn them into light-skinned mimickers of western european society and values to make them worth writing about?

The only reason you'd have to limit dark-skinned tribal cultures in your work to "orcs" is if the dark-skinned tribal peoples who have been historically present on earth were a bunch of savages with intelligence just a faction above that of animals. I categorically reject that idea.


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## Queshire (Mar 27, 2012)

I agree with you, however I'm not so optimistic to think that the everybody in the world wll see it that way.

It's simple really. 

Will people be offended by primative, tribal black humans? Yes. I like to think we're all genre savy enough to accept that.

If you want people to not be offended, then you're going to have to change that mental image of them. You can do this through how you portray them, but the simplest way is to change how they look. People are a lot more willing to accept things that might be stereotypical at first glance, regardless of whether it's actually stereotypical or not, if their portrayed as not human.

Hell, you could change absolutely nothing and just call them Orcs and people would accept it. The mental image of Orc simply overides the mental image of tribal black man. They can still be human, technically, by the definition of species, ie; able to create offspring that can reproduce in turn, DnD Orcs ARE human, but just by calling them that, the difference is enough that the average reader will keep reading past their first impression instead of being offended.

I maintain, vagueness is your friend. Provide only what you absolutely must, and let the reader's immagination fill in the rest.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 27, 2012)

You've got a lot of good information here, Jabrosky, and ultimately the decision will be made by you, but I don't think anyone here is trying to offend you by giving you their opinion.  You are not on a firing line; we are all artists who want you to succeed.  That being said, when one is too attached to a concept, it can be detrimental.  If you love your tribal people (as I do) then change the invaders to make it appear less like a racial issue.  People didn't like the bikini and loincloth... could you rethink the outfit a little?  What about my suggestion of making it look more like it came from a dinosaur?  That would alleviate the problems people are having with the outfit without you compromising anything.  It would make the character look like a character rather than a tribal African cartoon.

You've gotten some really encouraging help from a lot of people who obviously care.  I thought my suggestions were a very good compromise.


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## Steerpike (Mar 27, 2012)

Queshire said:


> If you want people to not be offended, then you're going to have to change that mental image of them. You can do this through how you portray them, but the simplest way is to change how they look.



This is true, but I suppose it gets at what is important in the story. Yes, you can change how they look, but you haven't really done anything apart from avoid the issue. It's like using PC terminology to re-name something - it does nothing to get at the underlying biases, and eventually you have to re-name it again (once all the still existing biases attach to the new term).

If one goal of the story is to portray a positive image of dark-skinned tribal cultures, then changing the appearance of the people defeats that. Whether that is important to Jabrosky in and of itself I don't know.

Also, I'm generally unsympathetic to the idea that art should be changed merely to avoid offending. If there is something within the story itself that doesn't work, then OK. But if it is merely that some people might be offended by it...well, I wouldn't let that rule my judgment. Chances are, most of the people offended will be light-skinned (I suspect that is the case in these forums). It reminds me of the use of the word "black" versus "african american." Of all the black friends, co-workers, and acquaintances I've had over the years (including one girlfriend, who I knew very well), only one person has preferred African American. The rest all preferred "black." A few were indifferent to african american, and a few were offended by that term. But there is no shortage of white people available to be offended if you say "black." I wonder what is up with that?


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## Devor (Mar 27, 2012)

Queshire said:


> Hell, you could change absolutely nothing and just call them Orcs and people would accept it.



People have been offended by orcs for close to a hundred years now.  It's called subtext.


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## Ghost (Mar 27, 2012)

I just wanted clarify something I wrote earlier. I don't mind the loincloth, face paint, neck rings, earlobe stretching, etc. I was speculating that all of those things rolled into one picture could be the cause of some of the negative reactions, and it would help Jabrosky to ease off some of them if he's worried about offending folks. I don't think any one of those aspects is the problem, but lumping them all together doesn't help.



Queshire said:


> Readers are stupid. They'll see things you never intended.





Queshire said:


> Will people be offended by primative, tribal black humans? Yes. I like to think we're all genre savy enough to accept that.
> 
> If you want people to not be offended, then you're going to have to change that mental image of them. You can do this through how you portray them, but the simplest way is to change how they look. People are a lot more willing to accept things that might be stereotypical at first glance, regardless of whether it's actually stereotypical or not, if their portrayed as not human.



These comments trouble me. I hope you won't thinking I'm picking on you, Queshire, but I have to address this.

Readers aren't stupid. Readers are diverse and they come from varying backgrounds. Coming to conclusions the author didn't intend doesn't make all of them stupid. In fact, plenty of us readers are smart enough to see through a thinly veiled attempt at switching out ethnic people for nonhumans. I think it does a greater disservice to the readers, and to the cultures you're leeching off of, to see this as a solution. There's a lack of respect for the readers, implying they're too stupid to see past cheap tricks.

Most people aren't offended when someone writes about tribal black people, but they become wary because it's easy for tribal people to be exoticized, demeaned, and condescended toward. There's a very long history of it in my country, and it continues to this day. Besides, many people were more offended at the Nazi issue. I think we all want both parties to be as human as possible in their portrayal without caricatures on either side. It looked to me like people were calling for Jabrosky to develop them further, not to scrap them completely.

And, frankly, I think fantasy could stand a hell of a lot more non-European types.



Queshire said:


> I maintain, vagueness is your friend. Provide only what you absolutely must, and let the reader's immagination fill in the rest.



What do you end up with if your people have no flavor to them and you're too afraid to describe them? I realize you're geared toward writing nonhumans, but many folks are not. We can't all play it safe for fear of offending. It also takes away from the setting when the cultures are so generic nobody even knows what the people look like or what they wear. Don't make readers do all the work. That's the author's job.

I think it's safe to say that no matter what anyone writes, someone somewhere can and will take offense. Maybe that particular author made a mistake in conveying a concept, or maybe that particular reader is a sensitive little flower. Whatever. It's not worth the effort of making your novels "offense-proof" because there's no such thing.


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## gerald.parson (Mar 27, 2012)

My two cents... who cares? If people get offended, oh well. At least you sparked some sort of reaction or emotion. People are offended by the smurfs, the carebears, fat albert, the list goes on and on. I am offended by this thread, that won't stop people from posting. ( I'm really not, just saying). I do however fine the drawing humorous, and I don't know if that was the angle you are shooting for. I find it funny in general that if the picture was of a white caveman I doubt the notion of offending anyone would even come up. I think the only issue you will have is how you depict other cultures in this setting, or other races. If you still have this "black" culture picking bugs out of their hair and across the way whitey is driving around in spaceships, then yeah, I think people will look into more and have some issues. But if all your cultures are in a similar epoch of cultural development then whats the worry?


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## Devor (Mar 27, 2012)

gerald.parson said:


> People are offended by the smurfs...



Pfft.  Little blue socialists.  :rolleyes2:


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## Jabrosky (Mar 27, 2012)

Here's a new design for my character (WARNING: frontal nudity):

http://jabrosky.deviantart.com/art/Nzinga-the-Dinosaur-Huntress-292840141

Admittedly it's not much better in quality as a drawing, but I did try to address the criticisms against the first design. Gratuitous jewelry has been removed, the body pain is green for camouflage in jungle vegetation, and the woman's colors are more like those of a normal African than an alien from a parallel world. I've also added a couple of ritually inflicted scars on her forehead; these were cut as part of an initiation rite.


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## sarouchka94 (Apr 5, 2012)

Hi,

Honestly your idea isn't bad but it seem too bad pale skinned people against good dark skinned people,  think you would have more impact if you used different medium to transcribe your idea, like for exemple races that aren't even human, or something like that. And you have to bear in mind that not everything is black and white, look at the Germans during WWII, I'm sure not all of them were nazi, some of them even were perhaps very good people, some other had good idea to change the system and perhaps they have been corrupted, also all the propaganda that the nazi did definitely had a way to reach people, especially young one... Basically what I want to say is that, if you're going to talk about racism it would be interesting if you give all of his psychologycal aspect, how it can be provoqued, why...etc, to give more complexity to your story.

Besides, about your picture, I think it's a bit too stereotype, I mean look, black skin, plus tribal attire, hunter... What comes first in the public mind is primitive, it isn't your fault, it's just the way things are, it just that all these years of racial hatred, somehow programmed people.

Hope I could be of some help


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## sarouchka94 (Apr 5, 2012)

Oh sorry I didn't see you had posted a new image, but I can't see it I don't why. Anyway I also wanted to add, that I don't mean at all to offend you, it just was my honest opinion. And in any case good luck for you story.


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## Shockley (Apr 5, 2012)

In my opinion, I think it's always best to defer to a large group of people who say they are being offended. To do otherwise is a bit like telling someone they don't feel a certain way.

 That said, if you don't find your work racist than go forward. Just based on what I've seen here, you're a far sight better than Lovecraft, Kipling, Howard, etc. on their least racist days - I wouldn't worry about that during the writing process, and I hope your completed work speaks for itself.


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## Steerpike (Apr 5, 2012)

Shockley said:


> In my opinion, I think it's always best to defer to a large group of people who say they are being offended. To do otherwise is a bit like telling someone they don't feel a certain way.



You can acknowledge that people might feel a certain way, but that doesn't mean you have to agree with their feelings or cater to them. I'd am hesitant to suggest that literature should be written in a manner such as to avoid a majority of any group. Much of the strength of literature, particularly as social commentary, rests in the willingness of the author of risk offense. Many books of merit are banned in certain locations precisely because they offend a large group of people. 

So I second your statement about going forward. I don't think the author should ever feel obligated to defer to those who are offended. You have to be realistic and acknowledge it, to yourself if no one else, but that's about it.


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## kadenaz (Apr 5, 2012)

make their eye bulbs black, and make their pupil gray, this should do


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## Devor (Apr 6, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> You can acknowledge that people might feel a certain way, but that doesn't mean you have to agree with their feelings or cater to them.



I think it depends on why people are offended because I think it can be a huge clue as to what you need to work on.

People get "offended" by all sorts of crazy stuff, but they also get offended by _shallow portrayals_, _exaggerated stereotypes_ and _a lack of individualization_ within the particular group.  Whether "offense" is a reasonable reaction or not, I don't know, but those all happen to be signs of bad writing as well.

Ouroboros, I hope you don't mind if I use your reaction as an example....



Ouroboros said:


> I'm trying to think of what bothered me when I first saw the pictures. It may be the style. I don't mean to offend your sensibilites, but perhaps a more realistic style of drawing instead of a cartoonish one would read differently. It might be part of why people don't take it seriously.



I honestly feel that if the picture, with all of its key characteristics, had been done by a professional artist with a realistic color palette, it wouldn't have been offensive to anyone at all.

Something people really don't like is to be made into a caricature, and that's something which can happen just by doing something poorly.  If people are getting offended by your work, it may really be that your writing needs work.

But you can really screw up trying to avoid offending people.  According to my classes in college, that happens in business all the time.  So my advice:

*Be mindful when people are offended, but only if they've actually seen your work.*


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## Balam Ka'ana (May 28, 2012)

Straighten the hair. Make it long maybe make it red. You know, add an atypical element to the design and it may not seem as blatant to the reader.


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## deepikasd (May 28, 2012)

Honestly, kudos to you for writing a story where the main character has dark-skin.

Maybe people should look at this in another way. Since the majority of fantasy stories feature characters with pale skin, we could say that they are portraying a stereotypical race like that. So technically, your story is not stereotypical at all.

If you want you could have your characters dress in very simple clothing during everyday life and for special ceremonies and events they could dress up in the garb that you had planned for earlier. Also, include feathers. A lot of scientists these days portray dinosaurs to have some type of feather, whether downy feathers or the decorative plumes we usually crave after from birds. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






 So your character could even have feather clothing or accessories. If you are too worried about people thinking that you are portraying a racial stereotype, you can also add slight elements from other cultures. Take for instance the Australian Aboriginal tribes, some of them would cover themselves in mud even though they have dark skin. Also, I don't see a problem with bright colored paints, may native "primitive" races used them to this day (btw these so-called primitive races are actually more in tune with the land and knowledgeable than we are in some areas). You can even have these paints kind of glow in the dark...

I personally think that people would only see your story as being racist if you keep reminding people of the differences in skin color. Plus, it all boils down to how you plan and write your story. I forget the exact story but there is this one author whose character was reptilian. He never actually came out and said it until almost the ending of the book, but by the little hints he left here and there (like mentioning the swishing sounds behind the character -- which turned out to be the character's tail). Another thing you can do is have the color be seen differently in your world than on Earth. That way even light-skinned people might have a slight color change to their skin -- this would be a matter of perception due to the way light refracts. Plus, unless you are writing a picture book, most people might forget the true color of your main characters once the story gets underway. Unless color is absolutely important, you don't have to focus on it. Take for instance my story, I make a strong distinction between the colors of my characters because I want the reader to realize how different a dark-skinned character would look like in a world where everything is white and white is treasured. So unless you are stressing color in the story, you don't really have to dwell on your character's skin color.


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## Justme (May 28, 2012)

People who look for things to be offended by are the thought police of any forum. Do not degrade your ideals and ideas to curry favor with them. Once you give them an audience, they will try to take the stage. I've told several of the people who you describe. They read the words they have heard elsewhere in everything they see and try to make you responsible for their indignation. 

These people are the most intolerant of anybody and wave the banner of toleration to mask the complete absence of that very trait within themselves for any opinion other than their own. 

I remember posting a thread about society punishing women because of their beauty and their femininity not playing the roll in which so many have become accustomed and two female members took exception to my using the term "our" which I used in the context of the women within society. I made no remark about anyone being owned and they would except no explanation. They demanded I change the entire wording, before they would participate in the discussion. 

I told them that I refused to tip toe around their mental minefields and moved on. Sometimes you have to sidestepissues that mean exactly nothing in the scheme of things.


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## Jess A (Jun 4, 2012)

Balam Ka'ana said:


> Straighten the hair. Make it long maybe make it red. You know, add an atypical element to the design and it may not seem as blatant to the reader.



That's a good idea. Crimson red hair would look cool, or very pale hair. Perhaps she could have violet eyes. That would look interesting, and not entirely unrealistic either. She could even have skin patterns, like tigers (beneath the fur). Stripes or spots or different colours in different areas. It would match the dinosaur world. I agree that feathers would be a cool addition to the outfits, or big feather crests or feathers in the hair. Dino skulls, clawed 'gauntlets' or something attached to the hands, using claws taken from dinosaurs.

Overall, I like that she has black skin. I also adore dinosaurs and would be interested to read this story when it's done.


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## Steerpike (Jun 5, 2012)

Honestly, it probably isn't possible for me to care less about whether someone is offended over what I write or how I portray any given characters. I'm not setting out to offend anyone, and if someone does take offense that is their problem, not mine. I see no reason to cater to the hypersensitive by altering my work.


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## SeverinR (Jun 11, 2012)

Could go the way of Star trek. 
Skin color of blue, green. Non-traditional skin color will not automatically trigger stereo-typical racism. There will always be similarities which might trigger them anyway.


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