# Chemical weapons in Fantasy worlds



## Sheilawisz (Mar 2, 2012)

I have been wondering these days, have any of you ever included chemical weapons in the worlds of your Fantasy stories??

I do not mean incendiary substances similar to Greek Fire (I think they have something like that in the series A Song of Ice and Fire) what I am talking about is some sort of poison that would be used to inflict terror and death on enemy armies, like it happened in the real world back in the days of the Great War.

Maybe it would be quite original and interesting to include such elements in a Fantasy world, what do you think??


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## Amanita (Mar 2, 2012)

I have plenty of them, but that's mainly due to the nature of the magic system. 
In the usual low-tech setting, chemical weapons like the ones used in WWI couldn't reasonably exist. At least not without magic. For your magic users this probably wouldn't be much of a problem though. 
Marion Zimmer-Bradley has used weapons of mass destruction in her Darkover series, one of them seemed to be some sort of chemical substance or maybe radioative as well, it's never been specified. (For good reason probably.) It's been created with the help of magic though. It worked quite well, at least for me, I'm not sure about others. 
What's been done in earlier times is the poisoning of enemy wells and water supplies. A (relatively) famous case of this is found here. First Sacred War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. (This could be an interesting base for a plot as well.)
Besides poisonous plants, mercury and arsenic compounds would have been available quite early as well. 

In Zimmer-Bradley's books, such weapons been used to highlight the horrors of war, in a story with a more positive outlook on war (for noble causes...) this might not be very helpful. I'm already feeling guilty if I have the "good side" resort to chemical weapons. 
To answer your last question: I definitely wouldn't mind, but there probably would be people being put off by it for various reasons.


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## Queshire (Mar 2, 2012)

I'm not sure how much this'll help, but there's reports of armies catapulting plague ridden bodies over castle walls during a seige.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 2, 2012)

@Amanita: You are quite right, most Fantasy stories are set in low-tech worlds which means that advanced chemical weapons would not even exist... at least, not without magic!! I was not thinking about Magic when I started this thread: Chemical weapons would be used by the common people without magic, and not by powerful Mages.

Chlorine clouds advancing through a medieval battlefield causing terror and death would be a terrific feature for a Fantasy story, and the production of Chlorine is simple enough to be plausible even in a low-tech setting if you know how to do it!!

I have not included any chemical weapon in my stories, despite the fact that I have been obssesed with the dark and terrible world of chemical weapons for many years and I have researched them to the point that I have a unusually high knowledge for a non-chemist civilian =P

So, would you please describe some of the magical/chemical weapons of your stories??

@Queshire: What you have described took place in the siege of Kaffa in 1347, and some historians believe that this particular incident caused the Plague outbreak in Europe when infected ships sailed back home. That's biological warfare, but anyway it would be very interesting too in a Fantasy story.


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## ThinkerX (Mar 2, 2012)

Fiest, in his original 'Magician' series, had an interesting, and apparently fully workable idea:

Wind *must* be blowing towards attackers.

Heat up loose sand, until it is red to white hot.

Dump heated sand in catapults, and launch at enemy.

Should be lots and lots of burns, possibly many small fires, plus panic, ect.


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## TWErvin2 (Mar 2, 2012)

One side used chemical weapons (Chlorine gas) similar to WW II in my fantasy novel Flank Hawk. I thought about it long and hard, how it would affect the battlefield and how the opposing side might use magic in an attempt to counter it. I believe it worked out pretty well. 

While what you suggest with respect to chemical weapons, Sheilawisz, may not be totally unique, it's not common and could add an interesting element to the work you're creating.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Mar 2, 2012)

So the main issue with chemical weapons in a fantasy context is that 1) chemistry probably hasn't been developed, so the number of compounds that are known is very small; and 2) industrialization hasn't been invented, meaning that mass production of just about anything is extremely expensive.

If the _1632_ series taught me nothing else, it's that industrialization requires large amounts of stainless steel and sulfuric acid.


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## Drakhov (Mar 3, 2012)

While chemistry might not be a fully developed scientific discipline, alchemy is pretty much a staple in fantasy fiction / gaming. Making weapons like these on an industrial scale might not be feasible, you shouldn't have much trouble incorporating them into your stories on a limited scale.

There was an excellent RPG for the PC I played years ago called _Darklands_ in which you could train your characters to make alchemical potions, many of them usable in combat - acid and fire bombs, explosives, various poison gasses and snares. 

In Black Library's _Warhammer_ canon there's a race of giant rat men called Skaven, who employ poison gas and the like.


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## gerald.parson (Mar 3, 2012)

This is fantasy after all. So really you set the boundaries, who says you have to use the same compounds we use today, create your own minerals and resources that yield your own designed results. I mean if there was a spring that expelled a highly flammable liquid, you can bet there would be some practical military application for it. I don't think anything is really out of place its just a matter of execution. Just my 2 cents.


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## Amanita (Mar 3, 2012)

> Chlorine clouds advancing through a medieval battlefield causing terror and death would be a terrific feature for a Fantasy story, and the production of Chlorine is simple enough to be plausible even in a low-tech setting if you know how to do it!!


Yes, chlorine is definitely awesome in many ways. The simple fact that two elements as dangerous as sodium and chlorine form simple table salt when combined continues to amaze me. And the colour is good for dramatic effect as well. A random bit of information I've stumbled across a few months ago: In the original Greek, chloros is the word used to describe the colour of the Death's horse. It's always translated as "pale" though, various meanings of Greek colour terms.
Still, I can't think of a way to make enough elemental chlorine to use it as a weapon and get it onto a battle field in a low tech-setting. Do you want to tell me how?



> So, would you please describe some of the magical/chemical weapons of your stories??


Well, there isn't that much to describe. I have magic based on the chemical elements, rather than fire, earth and so on. This even allows the use of fluorine and some highly reactive compounds thereof.  Therefore most of them have honour codes forbidding the use in war, however. If actually thrown into war and life-threatening situations they usually don't abide by them. 
Alchemy in my world also enables elemental magic users to put the properties of substances into others and therefore create poisons that combine the properties of various existing ones. My in this aspect not highly original plot has my heros run around my world to collect some of those gotten lost and sought after by the villains. 

Unsurprisingly given what I've written above, I have an inappropriate amount of people with chlorine as their element including one the main female characters and the villainess of my current story. (The male villain has oxygen.)



> create your own minerals and resources that yield your own designed results.


That's what Marion Zimmer-Bradley is doing. She's got some mineral that can be turned into weapons by magic. This can be done as well of course, but it makes people like me wonder, what this could "really" be.


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## grahamguitarman (Mar 4, 2012)

Chemistry of one kind or another has been around since Egyptian times and possibly before that even.  

As an artist with a big interest in the history of pigments, I know for example that there were chemists creating artificial synthetic pigments even in ancient Egypt.  So its not such a big leap of imagination to suppose that chemical weapons were theoretically possible in ancient times too.

I believe there is some evidence of poisonous smoke being used in warfare in ancient china, but I can't remember where I read that.  The smoke created had arsenic in it if I remember rightly, but don't quote me on that!

At the end of the day its fantasy, and there is no reason why an alchemist couldn't devise chemical weapons for his political masters.


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## gerald.parson (Mar 4, 2012)

grahamguitarman said:


> Chemistry of one kind or another has been around since Egyptian times and possibly before that even.
> 
> As an artist with a big interest in the history of pigments, I know for example that there were chemists creating artificial synthetic pigments even in ancient Egypt.  So its not such a big leap of imagination to suppose that chemical weapons were theoretically possible in ancient times too.
> 
> ...



I believe I saw a special on the history channel pertaining to that.
Chemical weapons are perfectly plausible, it's been done in our history. As Graham and another poster have pointed out. Not to mention Naptha, Lime, Itching Powder, all these things where used in combat in our world. As said before, Mongols would toss infected corpses into cities etc etc etc. And these are just things we are aware of. Now put this all in context with fantasy and really there is little limitation, just a matter of making it work. I am not a big fan of making magic a scapegoat or the easy explanation, but I'm not saying its wrong either.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 6, 2012)

Well, I am back from my weekend Queretarian adventure... and I am very happy to see so many replies in my thread!! I thought that very few of you would be interested, and it turns out that actually some have been using Chlorine in your stories =)

First, like Graham and Gerald have said, poisonous smoke was the first "chemical weapon" used in warfare and it was usually created with sulfur (sulfur dioxide is quite poisonous) sometimes mixed with pitch and other things. Anyway, the idea that I had to start this thread would be to include more complex and devastating chemical weapons in Fantasy settings (especially Chlorine) and I am surprised to hear that Amanita and TWErvin have been using it already!!

TWErvin: My deep interest in chemical weapons began the first time that I read about the Great War, and how the German Army delivered a devastating Chlorine attack at Belgium in April 22 1915... the description of the huge greenish yellow cloud and how terrifying and deadly it was made me try to imagine, fascinated and horrified at the same time, what it was like to be in the battlefield and see something like that drawing closer to you.

Interesting Chlorine attack link here.

Like Amanita mentioned, the colour of Chlorine and the fact that the soldiers could actually _see_ the freaking green cloud drawing closer was a terrible psychological weapon, even later in the war when better gas masks could provide effective protection against Chlorine, Phosgene and the White Star.

I am curious, what happened exactly in your story when they released Chlorine in a battlefield?? What do they call it? I think that Green Demon would be an excellent Fantasy name for Chlorine!!

I do not plan to include chemical warfare in my stories, even though armies of the common people have used a special liquid poison to fight off monster invasions: the Mages already have fearsome stuff and they don't need any chemical weapon to do what they do =)

Amanita: I feel a little awkward talking about chemical weapons of the Great War like Chlorine, and I am sure that starting to describe here at Mythic Scribes how to actually make them would be a bad idea. However, I can tell you that mixing Dust of Fatality with Liquid of Death releases loads of Chlorine quickly, and both substances were within the capabilities of medieval Alchemists.

Also, primitive batteries and copper wires would allow them to produce Chlorine from water and salt: If this was done in a very cold weather, they could liquefy the Chlorine and store it inside some form of glass or steel containers to be taken to war and delivered with the wind.

The production of Phosgene would also be possible in a low-tech setting, but Chlorine would be a far more effective weapon just because of the psychological effect... by the way, do you know which is deadlier between Chlorine and Fluorine??

I did not know that about the original Greek word Chloros, thanks!!

Gerald: Well, I agree totally with you that this is Fantasy after all- However, most writers here want to include realistic stuff in their worlds and so I was thinking about realistic chemical weapons in a Fantasy world... In case I decided to include them in my worlds after all, it would be some strange blue or even purple gas that would be produced with mysterious liquids and unknown minerals extracted from secret mines somewhere =)


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## TWErvin2 (Mar 6, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> TWErvin: My deep interest in chemical weapons began the first time that I read about the Great War, and how the German Army delivered a devastating Chlorine attack at Belgium in April 22 1915... the description of the huge greenish yellow cloud and how terrifying and deadly it was made me try to imagine, fascinated and horrified at the same time, what it was like to be in the battlefield and see something like that drawing closer to you.
> 
> Interesting Chlorine attack link here.
> 
> ...



Sheilawisz,
My fantasy novel takes place in a post-apocalyptic world set about 3000 years into the future, where magic exists and remnants of technology remain viable to those that have preserved them or learned to build (rebuild/re-engineer) such things.  

The Necromancer King had used chemical munitions against a non-magic using nation (the Reunited Kingdom) over a decade prior to the main storyline. The Reunited Kingdom has technology and weapons (telegraph lines, steam-driven ships, cannons and muzzle-loading rifles, etc.) but were unprepared for chemical munitions (which don't affect zombies, of course). Thus, routed.

In the current storyline, chemical artillery shells are used, but to limited effect as air wizards summoned elemental spirits to take up and whisk away (or sometimes across the battlefield into the enemy's lines) the billowing contents of the chemical munitions. Of course, there is the question of how many wizards and how many wind elemental spirits can they summon, or how much can they expend to change the direction of the winds to blow munitions back (if the natural breezes are diving it into friendly lines) vs. how much/many munitions the enemy has and can serpent-riders (dragon) penetrate defenses to get behind the lines to where the artillery is being fired, etc.

Boiled down, that's it. A lot of storytelling built up to that point, and actually the chemical munitions were only a small part of the narrative/action. If you examine the cover of my first novel, you can see a prop-driven aircraft approaching a serpent rider and his mount. ( Flank Hawk Cover - Mythic Scribes ) That is often what attracts some attention of the readers, gets them to look closer. History buffs should be able to identify the plane.

But the point I'm getting at (even if on a bit of a tangent  ) is that if you want to include chemical munitions or some other twist that may have been done before on occasion, or maybe not, if it fits in the world created and the storyline, go for it. One of the reasons my publisher picked up my novel is because it was unique, compared to so much of what was submitted. The main editor says that there are a lot of good stories out there, some really good ones, but they don't necessarily stand out from all the others, published and unpublished, if that makes sense. I talked a little more about it in depth here during a Mythic Scribes interview: Getting Published in the Fantasy Genre

And really, my ideas are not fully original. Part of the spark for my world came from Roger Zelazny's Amber novel, The Guns of Avalon. The other half that got me to thinking was Harry Turtledove's (alternate history) World War series.


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## Ivan (Mar 6, 2012)

Sheilawisz: Molecular fluorine is so dangerous that it is difficult to store and handle even industrially, it reacts rabidly with pretty much everything. As an aside, fluorine-containing minerals were used in ore processing in the 1500's if not earlier.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 7, 2012)

@Ivan: Thank you!! I already knew that Fluorine is very dangerous and difficult to store and handle, but I have not been able to discover what are the lethal concentrations. Chlorine can cause damage to the lungs as low as 25ppm, cause fatal damage quickly with 430ppm and 1000ppm are absolutely lethal, even though victims can take very long to finally die like it happened to many poor soldiers in the Great War.

Phosgene is lethal in similar concentrations, but about Fluorine all I know is that 100ppm cause serious damage to the eyes and the respiratory system. I think that it must be more lethal than Chlorine, but I don't know exactly...

@Terry: The cover of your Flank Hawk book looks great, and it would definitely catch my attention if I saw that at a bookstore!! I have heard many times that stories that are unique and different are more difficult to publish and sell, but hearing about you and your success with Flank Hawk encourages me to continue writing the unusual stuff that I write =)

Your world sounds interesting and indeed unique- I am thinking now that the Necromancer King could counter the Air Wizards with persistent stuff instead of volatile chemicals, for example by using munitions filled with the Mustard Agent. It's a liquid at room temperature (even though it's usually called mustard "gas") and it can contaminate a field for many days and even weeks.

Sadly, in the real world the mustard agent has been considered "the king of agents" because it's cheap, easy to produce with simple ingredients, easy to deploy, it's a stable compound and it inflicts horrendous physical and psychological effects. Actually it was discovered by accident back in 1822, and at first they had no idea what they had created and did not imagine that this compound had a huge potential to cause so much misery and death.

An interesting fact: A low-tech Fantasy culture that has discovered Chlorine, has access to Sulfur and can obtain Ethylene from somewhere has the potential to develop the Mustard Agent. 

The Nerve Agents, in the other hand, are way more complex and could not exist at all in a low technology world =)


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## SeverinR (Mar 7, 2012)

Discussion has tended towards chemistry.

How about magical chemistry?  A salt mine is safe until someone figures out how to seperate the elements. Sodium and chlorine, the discoverer probably would have died, so hopefully they kept good records.

also water would produce hydrogen and oxygen, hydrogen lighter then air but very flammable? A blimp or a fiery death trap from above to drop on a group?

Magic only needs enough spice of reality to be acceptable to the reader.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 7, 2012)

Severin, I have always wondered why water is not explosive, why Chlorine and Sodium combine to create common salt, why the atmosphere cannot be ignited and many other curiosities, chemistry is strange and fun sometimes =)

Magical chemistry like separating the elements of a compound would be excellent too in a Fantasy story (it reminds me too much of Edward Elric, but anyway it's great) anyway, if you throw Magic into chemistry then it would be too easy to create all sort of chemical/magical weapons that would be used by Mages.

The idea behind this thread really is to include chemical agents that would be used by people without Magic, and how plausible it could be for such elements and compounds to be discovered and weaponized in a Fantasy world =)


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## Amanita (Mar 8, 2012)

Sorry for taking so long to reply but I had a few very busy days and have been to tired.

Firstly, I don’t think you have to worry about posting something about making chlorine. Putting acid into certain commonly sold detergents is enough and it even says so on the bottles. If someone wants it, they don’t have to look on a fantasy forum.  
But I think I know what you mean and I doubt that it would work very well and for the quantities necessary for wartime use. 
Fluorine is completely off-limits for use in a pre-technological world, they wouldn’t even be able to produce it, because it requires electricity and dry, liquid hydrogen fluoride. (If there’s water in it, oxygen will get oxidized.)
A fascinating video about fluorine can be found here, they’re not talking about lethal doses though. 
Fluorine - Periodic Table of Videos - YouTube



> The production of Phosgene would also be possible in a low-tech setting, but Chlorine would be a far more effective weapon just because of the psychological effect... by the way, do you know which is deadlier between Chlorine and Fluorine??


Both fluorine and phosgene are much more poisonous than chlorine, that’s why the latter was used later in the war. Fluorine is much more reactive than chlorine and still poisonous in ionic form which chlorine is not as we all know.
Especially in lower doses, chlorine only affects the upper respiratory tract and is strongly irritant which serves as a warning. It’s reacting with the moisture present there to form hydrochloric and hypochlorus acid. 
Phosgene supposedly smells like hay or rotting apples and isn’t irritant if inhaled in small doses. It travels directly into the lungs, reacting there and causing severe damage, often hours later. If someone spends these hours moving much, (such as during a fight) they’re even more likely to die. Therefore even very small doses can be deadly. A few years ago two scientists at a German university nearly died because there was phosgene released underneath their fumehood even though they realised it very quickly. It’s only being used under very strong security measures.
Chlorine on the other hand has been used in a few demonstration experiments by our lecturer without any such protection. Sitting in the first rows, you caught a bit of the smell but this amount wasn’t harmful in any way. This definitely couldn’t be done with phosgene. I don’t know where you got your numbers, but I highly doubt that they’re really alike. The two substances are even categorized in different classes of toxicity. 



> In the current storyline, chemical artillery shells are used, but to limited effect as air wizards summoned elemental spirits to take up and whisk away (or sometimes across the battlefield into the enemy's lines) the billowing contents of the chemical munitions.



Forgive me my blunt way of asking, it really isn’t supposed to be criticism but simply curiosity: Why did you choose to include chemical weapons if you don’t have them have any effect on the story. (Besides making air wizards tired maybe) 

Severin, my magical people can do all the stuff you mention and even survive. (Most of the time.) 
I also like magic which a touch of reality if done well of course (Which I’m trying hard to do, but who can properly judge themselves?) If alchemy is mentioned in a book I’m reading, I tend to be disappointed, if it doesn’t have anything to with actual chemistry at all and is just some random creation of substances useful to the plot. 
We definitely need a thread for the good sides of chemistry in fantasy as well.


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## arbiter117 (Mar 9, 2012)

Arsenic was documented by Albertus Magnus in 1250 (wikipedia)

check out history of poisons in wikipedia for some ideas of preindustrial poisons

in a fantasy world, I'm sure there are things you can burn that are deadly, or make some fumes that are deadly (don't burn poison ivy or poison oak, it is not good for you!)

Fecal matter works great too


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 9, 2012)

Hey Amanita =) You are right, recipes for simple chemical reactions are widely available and they are not going to look for them in a Fantasy forum, but anyway we are supposed to be a family friendly site. I mentioned ingredients for the Levinstein process, but clearly I am not going to describe exactly how it's done!!

I read somewhere that the LC50 for Phosgene is around 500ppm/minute, while a similar concentration of Chlorine can be fatal in a few minutes and just twice of that causes lethal damage after a few breathes. My opinion is that Phosgene _seems_ to be way more deadly than Chlorine because, like you said, it takes longer to cause effect and you can inhale a lot more of Phosgene without even realizing what is happening =(

Chlorine attacks so violently that people cough with very low concentrations and so they are warned, which is the reason why the White Star was created in the Great War: Phosgene was more lethal because the troops would inhale much more of it, but Chlorine helped to carry and spread the denser Phosgene... and so combined, these two Agents caused more than 80% of all fatal chemical casualties of the Great War.

I think that the Choking Agents are terrifying and underrated by the Military. The Nerve Agents are famous as some sort of super deadly weapon, but the fact that they are super toxic does not mean that they are _that_ effective in a real attack: Even with VX (and contrary to movies like The Rock) it would take many tons of chemical to cause severe casualties even in a highly populated area, which is a fact that tranquilizes me a lot =P

After all, chemical weapons are really a psychological weapon (not a chemical nuke like some people imagine) and for that purpose, the Choking Agents are really more than efficient...

So, do you know the LC50 for Fluorine??

About the weaponization of Chlorine in a low-tech Fantasy world, it would not really be about releasing huge amounts of the Agent quickly: What they would need would be to produce little amounts and liquefy them (either by cold weather or by pressure) create a stockpile of liquid Chlorine and then take it to the battlefields...

What is it like when your magical characters use Chlorine??


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## Amanita (Mar 13, 2012)

Sorry for taking so long to answer again, but I didn’t want to have this feel like a one on one-discussion. But never mind, I don’t think the rules in this forum forbid this and maybe it’s interesting for someone else as well. 

A few LC-50 doses over one hour. (Safety data sheet)
Phosgen: 5 ppm
Nitrogen Dioxide: 115 ppm
Fluorine: 185 ppm
Chlorine: 293ppm

I’ve added nitrogen dioxide because it can easily be made from nitric acid, which was known to alchemists back in the 9th century. It might be a realistic option for pretechnological chemical warfare, even though I’m not sure how well it can be spread on a battle field. It could be created there directly though which would solve the problem of transporting the gas. 
In a closed room or something similar it could definitely work. I could picture a scene of protagoniats entering an evil alchemist’s workroom full of brown fumes they can’t recognise. And disaster ensues…
The brown colour isn’t bad for psychological effects either. 

Besides, it’s the only one of those poisonous gases I’ve actually had to deal with in real life so far and I keep being surprised by the low lethal dose. And unlike hydrochloric acid vapours which I had the „pleasure“ to inhale as well, it isn’t irritant and actually has a more pleasant smell than many other, less dangerous things in the lab. 
Inhaling hydrochloric acid feels like a mixture of putting your head under water and a burning pain. Chlorine would be similar I assume, and facing this in a situation where you can’t close the fumehood and open the window would definitely have devastating psychological effects even if it doesn’t do severe physical harm.

Chilling things behind the link you’ve posted by the way. Especially the story about the young Canadian’s death. 
Reading something like this, I feel guilty for putting it into my fictional world again, but the same would go for many other things that happen in many fantasy stories and can’t be left out completely most of the time, such as torture, other messy ways of dying and sexual violence. 



> What is it like when your magical characters use Chlorine??


Well, that depends. In case of my protagonist, it’s mostly protecting others. She’s suffering from her element’s reputation and from the fact, that all kinds of dubious people’d like to have her on their side. 
The villainess mainly uses it against defenseless opponents she considers inferior for soem reason. She’s also able to make phosgene out of salt, air and anything containing carbon. 
One of the protagonists teachers has used chlorine to fight the fanatical people whose country he wanted to help „free“ from their evil leader. 
The citizens believed differently and were prepared to send everyone into the battle who could hold anything resembling a weapon. He actually intended to scare them away rather than kill too many oft hem and he’s also been rather desperate because they’ve been attacked by people they wouldn’t usually consider a thread by than.
Back home he had to face plenty of criticism, because there were quite a few women and children among the victims but his punishment wasn’t too severe. 
There’s also been a past war where elemental powers and traditional chemical weapons were used in large quantitites. (My setting is not medieval.) I’m not sure if this will ever make it into an actual story however, because it’s extremely hard to define who the „good“ side is supposed to be.


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## Devor (Mar 13, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> First, like Graham and Gerald have said, poisonous smoke was the first "chemical weapon" used in warfare and it was usually created with sulfur (sulfur dioxide is quite poisonous) sometimes mixed with pitch and other things.



Would this be a good place to ask about sulfur dioxide and arsenic-based gases?  Following this thread, it's become clear that those gases might fit into one of the settings I'm working on, and I don't know anything about them.


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## ascanius (Mar 14, 2012)

I find this post annoys me. I've been getting no sleep for the past two weeks and frankly don't care who I piss off any more and decided I hate classes!  sorry if I offend anyone.  so First I'll clear up a few things.


Sheilawisz said:


> Like Amanita mentioned, the colour of Chlorine and the fact that the soldiers could actually _see_ the freaking green cloud drawing closer was a terrible psychological weapon, even later in the war when better gas masks could provide effective protection against Chlorine, Phosgene and the White Star.



The kinetic molecular theory stats that gas particles travel in a straight line until they collide with the walls of their container, or another particle.  And unless the the volume is very small or the number of gases particles  very small then this occurs without a net loss of kinetic energy PV=nRT.  Where P=pressure, V=volume n=number of moles, R=0.08206 atm L/ mol K, and T= tem in Kelvins. This means that in a limitless volume the number of particles for any toxic gas is so small as to be negligible.  Thus unless an enemy was in the immediate vicinity of such a gas little to no health risk is posed.  Carbon Monoxide for instance, the symptoms and effects vanish once a patient is removed from the toxic source.  so delivery by the wind would never work, the victim has to be very close to the source for any deadly effect to be had.  As soon as they are gone and normal ventilation occurs then the effects, unless anaphylaxis is present, then casualties can be minimized.



Sheilawisz said:


> Also, primitive batteries and copper wires would allow them to produce Chlorine from water and salt: If this was done in a very cold weather, they could liquefy the Chlorine and store it inside some form of glass or steel containers to be taken to war and delivered with the wind.




Not quite.  all that would happen is the electrolysis of water producing H(sub 2) and O(sub 2), both are highly reactive, once the concentration of water was depleted then the Cl and Na ions would reassociate and form a salt again, unless some intermediary was included but that too would require the isolation of a reactive species to bind with the one of the two ions leaving the other precipitate an Na metal or molecular Cl.  




Ivan said:


> Sheilawisz: Molecular fluorine is so dangerous that it is difficult to store and handle even industrially, it reacts rabidly with pretty much everything. As an aside, fluorine-containing minerals were used in ore processing in the 1500's if not earlier.


 
Fluorine containing minerals were used, not Flourine itself.  Flourine is the most electonegative element known meaning it is very reactive, the only one with an electronegativity of 3. The problem is isolating Fluorine by itself.



Sheilawisz said:


> Severin, I have always wondered why water is not explosive, why Chlorine and Sodium combine to create common salt, why the atmosphere cannot be ignited and many other curiosities, chemistry is strange and fun sometimes =)



First water can be explosive (well not actually water but what is added to water) depending on the addition of certain elements such as large quantities of Na(sodium)  Second the high reduction potential of O(sub 2) means that it is highly reactive, O(sub 2) ion is actually a poison in the metabolic pathway of respiration in large concentrations.  And high quantities react with the proteins and other vital compounds in cells, these are called free radicals.  Second for salt to be reactive the to components Na and Cl would have to be separated requiring, if I remember correctly, about 5000 degrees Celsius to reach vaporization.  A very High temperature to reach in a low tech setting.  There are probably other ways to do this but I am too tired to look them up.





Sheilawisz said:


> I think that the Choking Agents are terrifying and underrated by the Military. The Nerve Agents are famous as some sort of super deadly weapon, but the fact that they are super toxic does not mean that they are _that_ effective in a real attack: Even with VX (and contrary to movies like The Rock) it would take many tons of chemical to cause severe casualties even in a highly populated area, which is a fact that tranquilizes me a lot =P


They are not underrated but simply banned by the Chemical Weapons Convention that officially took effect on April 29, 1997(Wiki)  The problem with "chocking agents" is that they are upper respiratory irritants that cause an inflammation effect, my pathophysiology on this is a bit rusty so I may be wrong. However, Chocking is the blockage of the upper respiratory system every thing superior the larynx to the oral and nasal pharynx.  An attack on the lower respiratory system is not the same as chocking, but things like COPD, pulmonary edema to name two.  The coughing is a signal that the air has a toxin, all that is needed is fresh air, except, possibly for some toxic agents.  The effects of Carbon Monoxide poisoning vanishes once the patient is removed from the toxic environment, the same is true for Chlorine gas, and many others due to the nature of ventilation and respiration in the body.  The actual concentrations of O2 in the air are around 20% The quantity that is used for respiration, the exchange of O2 and CO2 is actually much lower that that percentage in the lungs.  The atmosphere is composed mainly of Nitrogen and other molecules.  If a gas is released then kinetics means it dilutes extremely rapidly in the air to harmless concentrations, unless in an enclosed space.  So releasing unless the intended victims are very close to the source the concentration decreases VERY rapidly because gas particles travel at such high velocities.

Ummm.......VX is the most lethal chemical agent known to man.  It is 100 time more lethal than sarin gas. A liter is more than enough to cause svere casualties especially in a densely populated area.  About 4 square millimeters provide a lethal dose in solid state.  or 0.00003mg/cu.m. (l)   http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/dugway/low_lv_chem_fact.htm for sarin The Emergency Response Safety and Health Database: Nerve Agent: VX for VX
or MSDS: VX, Chemical Biological Radiological Nuclear - Nerve Agents  These limits are extremely small amounts so it would not take many tons to cause sever casualties.  So for once I think movies are actually correct in depiction of a toxic chemical.  Oh and VX is an oily liquid that can stay active for protracted periods of time and is almost impossible to decontaminate against, or remove making it even more deadly.  VX and other nerve agents have the reputation they do for a very good reason.  Nerve agents are readily absorbed, through skin, or pulmonary pathways, meaning any contact without PPE(personal protective equipment) for the toxicity rating of the agent is toxic.  All that needs to be done is dispersal above a population and the nerve agent will fall to the ground contaminating everything.  If a person comes in contact with VX in a lethal dose then, unlike toxic gases, if they leave the area they will still die because it is in their system in sufficient quantities through absorption of the skin.  Imagine arosoled VX falling from the sky in a city and you don't even know it.  Then sudden onset of symptoms.  The victims won't even be removed from the site until they have been decontaminated, we are talking massive triage here.  And because such a small dose is needed any contact could mean death.  Simply leaving the scene will do little, urgent medical attention is required.  VX is classified as a weapon of mass destruction, it is a health level 4.  For comparison the Ebola virus has a Biosaftey 4.  Both of which are not things one wants risk any contact with.


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## ascanius (Mar 14, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> About the weaponization of Chlorine in a low-tech Fantasy world, it would not really be about releasing huge amounts of the Agent quickly: What they would need would be to produce little amounts and liquefy them (either by cold weather or by pressure) create a stockpile of liquid Chlorine and then take it to the battlefields...



Chlorine liquifies at -306 degrees Fahrenheit.  The complexities of reaching that low of a temp in a low tech setting are extremely high.  An understanding of kinetics, Free energy, entropy and other theories are needed before one can even reach those temps, much less accumulate enough Chlorine to make it worth while.



Amanita said:


> I’ve added nitrogen dioxide because it can easily be made from nitric acid, which was known to alchemists back in the 9th century. It might be a realistic option for pretechnological chemical warfare, even though I’m not sure how well it can be spread on a battle field. It could be created there directly though which would solve the problem of transporting the gas.


Nitrogen Dioxide is a byproduct of our modern day internal combustion engine.  Also because it is acidic those exposed to it will have warning signs but the lethal dosage is very high meaning a large quantity is need for lethality.  Also a sound understanding of chemistry is needed to isolate Nitrogen Dioxide from Nitric acid such as element reactivity and other things to isolate Nitrogen dioxide.  In a closed room it's use as a poison is feasible but the delivery method is tricky.  Isolating nitrate in sufficient quantities could prove troublesome without a firm understanding of modern chem.



Sheilawisz said:


> The idea behind this thread really is to include chemical agents that would be used by people without Magic, and how plausible it could be for such elements and compounds to be discovered and weaponized in a Fantasy world =)



The problem I see with these sorts of chemical weapons is the level of technology required to actually achieve their syntheses.  For all we know Nitroglycerine was discovered many years before our modern time, but due to it's lethality and technological requirements was never reported because it blew up the discoverer, which actually happened. Take greek fire, last I read no one knew how it was discovered.  But what is surprising is what can be done with the right ingredients, Iodine tables dissolved and ammonium can produce a friction sensitive explosive.  Or Therminte, the reduction of iron to Fe(III)O(sub 3) can melt through a 2 inch thick steel plate in a matter of minutes. DON'T TRY ANY OF THESE!!!!  The wrong amounts of Ammonium can leave you a gooey red splatter on the wall, not to mention in a federal prison if you survive!  I add this to stress the point that without an understanding of what is going on and how to manipulate the species in a reaction things can turn out very bad.  also, Along with technologies such as electricity, which led to the discovery of protons, and electrons, atomic theory and so forth.  A fundamental understanding of mathematics is also needed, Calc.  
If magic is used then the same problems arise.  The level of complexity required to write this sort of thing is great, and technological requirements need to be thought of or explained in such a way so as to seem possible.  If you get bored some time check out what actually went into the history to make chemistry what it is today.
I think this idea can work, but I think either it needs to be simple, very basic chemistry, or very complex.  I think the reason this hasn't been done before is due to the level of understanding needed to make it convincing.  This is an idea I have toyed with but decided not to after trying to figure out plausible way to incorporate what I know of Chemistry and physics into a greko/roman setting.  The problem I came up with was how to explain knowledge of subatomic particles, and knowledge of chemistry in the setting, but they still had to use flint and tinder to light a fire.  Or rode around on horses, but never though of harnessing combustion.  For me it is the same way J.K Rowling wrote the spell names and incantations, seeming to be Latin but simply used English words with a Latin sounding ending such as wingardium leviosa.  The use of something to simply give it a unique twist, or play to a specific compassion I find as an annoyance that takes away from what I am reading.  I will say this, I applaud anyone who tires, and say kudos to you for preserving where others have given up!  GOOD LUCK.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 14, 2012)

Hello Devor =) Sulfur Dioxide is produced easily by simply burning Sulfur: It's quite poisonous and can be lethal, even though it's much less dangerous than Chlorine or Phosgene. Arsenic-based chemical weapons include Arsine and the Lewisite Agent (created during the Great War but never used in combat) however, if you mean arsenic-containing smoke I have little knowledge about it but I'll try to research a little for you =)


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 14, 2012)

Amanita, thank you for the LC50 information about different chemicals and for telling me about Nitrogen Dioxide, I did not know about that particular compound and it sounds like it could be useful in a Fantasy story =)

Sorry about the chilling stories about the Chlorine attacks in the Spartacus link... it was awful, but it's part of real world history and if you have included such things in your Fantasy stories, it's alright: Fantasy is full of all sort of terrible and scary things already, like you said to me, so why not introducing dangerous chemicals in a story??

It's original!!

I'll send you messages to talk about your characters more deeply, it's very interesting =)


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 14, 2012)

Ascanius: Chlorine released from cylinders and taken by the wind forming clouds was used effectively in the Great War: In April 22 1915, a giant Chlorine cloud created a 7 kilometers-wide gap in the Allied lines. This style of attacks stopped being effective because the gas masks were getting better, but still it was a formidable psychological weapon.

Electrolysis of water with salt is the industrial, large-scale method for Chlorine production in our world. It also releases Hydrogen and Sodium Hydroxide is created as a sub-product.

A scary fact: if you inhale enough Chlorine or Phosgene it doesn't matter if you are taken to safety away from the Agent. What happens basically is that your respiratory system is destroyed, and there is no way of treating this... Carbon Monoxide, Carbon Dioxide, Nitrogen and other gases can suffocate people, but the true Choking Agents do much more than that: They burn and destroy their victims' respiratory systems and this is a terrible way to die =(

Chlorine can be easily liquefied at -34Â°C so if they have a cold weather in a Fantasy world (something like Siberia, with -40 outside of the Alchemy labs) producing liquid Chlorine is plausible indeed...

VX is only slightly more toxic than Cyclohexyl Sarin and Soman (anyway, the information available about the V series Nerve Agents is very limited) the fact that a few VX miligrams on the skin can kill a person does not mean that all of the VX inside of a weapon will reach every single person in the attacked region- an example from the real world:

In the Halabjah tragedy, the city was hit repeatedly for two days with Nerve Agent attacks combined with the Mustard Agent, and even though the fatalities were terrible, the vast majority of the city's inhabitants were capable of escaping and most of them survived. Also, in the Iraq-Iran war of the 1980's Iraq used Nerve Agents extensively and still they were unable to get a real advantage or win the war just because of the Nerve Agent attacks.

Also, water with soap and bleach can protect human skin effectively against Nerve Agent absorption =)

By the way, the Novichok Agents are supposed to be way more toxic even than VX but nobody knows for sure =P Anyway, the Nerve Agents cannot exist in a low technology Fantasy world, so we should talk about Agents that are plausible for Alchemy or basic Chemistry in the worlds that many of us use in our stories.


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## Steerpike (Mar 14, 2012)

If there is magic in the world, does the level of technology matter? 

If you don't have the technology to liquefy chlorine, but you have magic that will bring about the right temperature, then the problem is solved.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 14, 2012)

Steerpike, indeed Magic would allow the existance of any Chemical Warfare Agent but then we would be talking about Mages. The idea of the thread is to discuss whether such substances could be produced and weaponized by common people in our worlds or not, because Magic would just make it too easy =)

My Mages have never used any chemical weapon, but if they wanted a purple, persistent gas with a violets smell that acts like Phosgene and causes hallucinations like LSD at the same time, they would make it: Whether such a substance is chemically possible or not, they would not care, it would appear _just like that!!_


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## BeigePalladin (Mar 14, 2012)

Because that's going back to magic, and in most worlds magic is much rarer than peasents. This thread was about the non-mages and what they could do in regards to chemical weapons and the technology needed to produce them so it dosen't seem to out of place (as well as inspiring people on what is out there). Sure, magic could be used to help produce it, but then not every world has abundant (or any) magic and to be fair, when you discover _how_ to make something - that you'd need for most magic to work - you'd have almost the same technology needed to make it yourself 

you could do everything and anything with magic, but then you don't have a story. you have a collection of events and a mary sue in the middle of it all. And as Sceilawiz says, if a mage wants to do something, why would they bother


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## Steerpike (Mar 14, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> Steerpike, indeed Magic would allow the existance of any Chemical Warfare Agent but then we would be talking about Mages. The idea of the thread is to discuss whether such substances could be produced and weaponized by common people in our worlds or not, because Magic would just make it too easy =)



True, but even non-magical people are going to use the resources at their disposal. It is an option to consider, depending on the prevalence and accessibility of magic in your world. If you have magic at all, the question can't just end at whether there is a technological means to accomplish something that is needed (like cooling a gas). That wouldn't make sense in the context of the fantasy world because the people trying to achieve the cooling are then ignoring a major aspect of their own world. Even people with no access to magic might hire mages to create the cooling effect, and then achieve the remaining elements of the weapon creation in a more mundane manner.

Of course, if magic is extremely rare or dangerous in and of itself, this could be a limiting factor. But even if it is rare, if anyone would have the resources to employ it, it makes sense a government seeking new weapons would be able to do so.

If you're talking about worlds in which magic doesn't exist at all, then of course you wouldn't take it into consideration. But if magic does exist in the world, and you don't consider logical uses of it to fill in gaps where there are obvious needs and no technology, then I think the world becomes logically inconsistent.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 15, 2012)

@BeigePalladin: Thanks for your point, that is exactly the idea that I had when I started this thread: What could non-magic people achieve regarding chemical weapons in a low-tech Fantasy world?? I think that the possibilities for classic chemical weapons is very interesting, but Steerpike is making now a good point as well...

Steerpike: I think that you are right: The people would use all the resources at their disposal, and if their resources involve hiring Mages that have even a very limited magical power, the production of chemical weapons could become way easier- The cooling effect needed for Chlorine could be achieved by Mages with a simple cooling spell or something like that, and Chlorine is the key to create other stuff like Phosgene and the Mustard Agent.

Electrical magic powers could also help in this, even if they are not that powerful!! Well, now I'll research about the Arsenic question from Devor and let's see what we post tomorrow =)


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 15, 2012)

@Devor: It turns out that burning Arsenic or Arsenic-containing minerals creates a compound called Arsenic Trioxide, which is part of these Arsenic smokes used in ancient times. When this substance comes into contact with the skin or is inhaled directly, it builds up in the body like elemental Arsenic does and in the end it causes the same kind of poisoning...

So, it must have been a real Chemical Weapon when the Spartans, the Chinese and others included Arsenic in their burning mixtures- Interesting for a low-tech Fantasy world!!


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## Saigonnus (Mar 18, 2012)

Well, real world armies often lobbed rotting animals over the walls of enemy castles in hopes of infecting those under siege with an infectious disease. I have not included it in any of my works but I would if the story required it.


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## Devor (Mar 18, 2012)

Saigonnus said:


> Well, real world armies often lobbed rotting animals over the walls of enemy castles in hopes of infecting those under siege with an infectious disease. I have not included it in any of my works but I would if the story required it.



That's cool, but there is typically a difference between biological weapons and chemical weapons, and rotting corpses fall under biological.  Trying to spread disease, or dumping sewage into their drinking water, or dumping viral- and bacterial-laden objects into their vicinity, are all biological warfare.

That difference isn't really important when it comes down to it, but I think that's why people aren't responding much to the posts about corpses.  They aren't considered chemical warfare.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 19, 2012)

I am thinking now that starting a thread called "Biological Warfare in Fantasy Worlds" would be a great idea!! It could start a lot of debate and interesting ideas for Fantasy stories =)

A burning combination of sulfur with arsenical minerals would generate a very nasty smoke, and combined with winds in the right direction, it could perhaps devastate the defenders of a fortress or even the population of a town or a small city!!

The Chlorine idea still seems the best in my opinion...


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## Saigonnus (Mar 19, 2012)

I don't think anyone has mentioned things that could potentially taken from creatures that live in many fantasy worlds and as such they could be considered "naturally occuring"... imagine hiring a dragon that has toxic gas for a breath weapon and "bottling it" and then boiling it down for the extract... imagine arrows or jars of the chemical used in catapults. Extracting the venom from a chimera's throwable quills could work too, a paralytic agent that could be very effective as a biological weapon in battle or during a seige.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 22, 2012)

Chemical weapons obtained from natural substances found in Fantasy creatures?? That's a good one, Saigonnus!! I like especially the idea about a dragon that produces some form of poison gas, then people could bottle it... interesting =)


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 29, 2012)

Another link about a real world story from the Great War: Chlorine in World War 1.


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## Ivan (Mar 29, 2012)

Saigonnus said:


> I don't think anyone has mentioned things that could potentially taken from creatures that live in many fantasy worlds and as such they could be considered "naturally occuring"... imagine hiring a dragon that has toxic gas for a breath weapon and "bottling it" and then boiling it down for the extract... imagine arrows or jars of the chemical used in catapults. Extracting the venom from a chimera's throwable quills could work too, a paralytic agent that could be very effective as a biological weapon in battle or during a seige.



You could very well have someone cut open the "flame glands" of a dragon and extract the liquids within. Could be a good subplot, some guy is hired to kill a dragon not to save the villagers but to fuel some sorcerer's flamethrower...


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## shangrila (Mar 30, 2012)

It could work. I'd imagine there would be a lot of self inflicted deaths though.


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## Mindfire (Mar 30, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> I have been wondering these days, have any of you ever included chemical weapons in the worlds of your Fantasy stories??
> 
> I do not mean incendiary substances similar to Greek Fire (I think they have something like that in the series A Song of Ice and Fire) what I am talking about is some sort of poison that would be used to inflict terror and death on enemy armies, like it happened in the real world back in the days of the Great War.
> 
> Maybe it would be quite original and interesting to include such elements in a Fantasy world, what do you think??



Chemical weapons in a fantasy setting could definitely work. It's very different I'm not sure it's been done before. But it also depends on what kind of world you have. If you're in a medieval setting, it might not quite fit. But if your world is more Renaissance-esque, it could work. A good idea would be to have chemical weapons develop as a response to magic users. Maybe the government feels uneasy about the mages having so much power and this triggers an arms race. Or maybe there's an arms race betweem two countries and once chooses magic while the other develops WMDs.


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## Ivan (Mar 30, 2012)

shangrila said:


> It could work. I'd imagine there would be a lot of self inflicted deaths though.



Well it is fantasy after all! To be realistic, either the stuff combusts instantly with air (necessitating some kind of bigtime hypodermic syringe) or the dragon would have to have spark plugs in its nose.


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## shangrila (Apr 1, 2012)

Ivan said:


> Well it is fantasy after all! To be realistic, either the stuff combusts instantly with air (necessitating some kind of bigtime hypodermic syringe) or the dragon would have to have spark plugs in its nose.


If we're talking specifically about dragons, then you could go the Reign of Fire route and have two seperately stored chemicals that ignite when mixed. That might be...safer.


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 2, 2012)

I also love the concept from the Reign of Fire movie, about two different chemical substances that ignite when they are combined creating some sort of natural napalm... fascinating!! I have a species of dragon-like creatures in my Fantasy worlds that can attack by spitting a napalm-like liquid, but it ignites spontaneously in contact with the air =)

@Mindfire: You know, this idea of yours about a world where the common people develop chemical weapons and other WMDs to fight off the Mages is really good... I also agree that true chemical weapons like Chlorine and Phosgene would fit much better into a story with a world similar to 17th or 18th Century Europe, than they would do in a Medieval world.


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