# 1. Joe Abercrombie Discussion



## Philip Overby

From this thread that Ankari started, I think it would be cool to discuss the Top 100 Fantasy Author list,one author at time. http://mythicscribes.com/forums/novels-stories/9307-top-100-fantasy-authors-how-many-have-you-read.html

Every two or three days, I'm going to post an author from this list and then we can feel free to discuss books by the author, what we think about them, etc. *Please put SPOILER tags on anything that could be perceived as a spoiler for a book.*

The first entry is...Joe Abercrombie.

I have to say, he's one of my favorite authors in fantasy writing right now. He's considered by some the standard-bearer for "grimdark" fantasy (a name that has taken in some circles, but by no means an official name), writing that features darker themes, grey characters, and lots of gritty realism. 

Of his books, I've read the entire _First Law _ series, some of his short stories, and I've read most of his other books, _Red Country_ the one I'm trying to finish now. If you enjoy a dark sense of humor, realistic characters, and plenty of action, Abercrombie's the author for you.

There's been news that Abercrombie's next book is going to be a YA fantasy. You can check out the news on his blog here: Half a King | Joe Abercrombie

Some may say, "What? The master of grim, bloody fantasy is going to write a YA book?" I have to say though, I'm pretty interested to see what he's going to cook up. YA doesn't necessarily mean children's book after all. 

So any other thoughts about Abercrombie?


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## Steerpike

Abercrombie is great. My favorite is Best Served Cold, but I haven't been let down by any of his work!


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## Ankari

I'm a fan of Joe Abercrombie. I read his First Law trilogy and wanted to see what he would do with the second batch of novels dealing with Logan and The Black Dow, but he never came out with it. I keep eyeing his other stories, but I can't bring myself to make the jump and give up on that story arc.

I've heard some great things about Red Country. I'll pick it up after I read Paul Kemp's book.

As far as Joe and the whole grimdark issue (it is an issue, for some reason), I don't get it. He writes what he writes and we buy what we buy. Why do people give him so much flack for his preferable writing style?

Anyway, great writer. I consumed those three books and wanted more.


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## Philip Overby

He actually embraced the grimdark deal. His Twitter handle is LordGrimdark after all. I think that's more of his tongue in cheek way of accepting it anyway.

I think the backlash against the writing style are fantasy purists that want it to be more about lighter fantasy tales with good vs. evil. They see Abercrombie perpetuating a more violent, bleaker fantasy world that others just don't see as fitting into what fantasy is supposed to be. But yeah, I don't get it either. If you don't like dark stuff, don't read it. I see it more as a "you're muddying up our genre with filth" kind of thing. The same could probably be said for other break-away subgenres like cyberpunk and splatterpunk. 

However, I don't see what Abercrombie is doing is a bad thing. Like you said, he's writing what he writes. The best way to vote is with your wallet. And I have done so, many times.


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## Steerpike

Phil the Drill said:


> I think the backlash against the writing style are fantasy purists that want it to be more about lighter fantasy tales with good vs. evil. They see Abercrombie perpetuating a more violent, bleaker fantasy world that others just don't see as fitting into what fantasy is supposed to be.



The funny thing is, if you go back to Robert E. Howard, C.L. Moore, Clark Ashton Smith, etc., who all predate Tolkien for example, you're back at more dark, bleak fantasy. So maybe it is cyclical.


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## Philip Overby

It's interesting you mention some of those writers, because for some reason, Abercrombie is sometimes mentioned as a sword and sorcery writer. The aesthetic is similar in some ways, but I wouldn't say his main novels fit into that sub-genre. He has written stories for a sword and sorcery anthology before, so it's not a total reach.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Loved Best Served Cold... I'm planning on reading the First Law Trilogy soon.

I like the varied characters, the dark & brutal realities they inhabit. No fluffy, sparkly eyed heroes here. I'm also a fan of his minimalist description...not a lot of flowery details that don't add anything to the story.

My favorite part of BSC in Morveer's character and how the narrative changes when in his POV. I think it really strengthens the haughty attitude of that POV.


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## Philip Overby

I hear lots of people say they like _Best Served Cold_ the most. I really liked it too, but I didn't get to the end because I left it in the US (hardcover). But, lo, here it is on my bookshelf! It's on my TBR list.


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## kayd_mon

_The Blade Itself_ is the next book on my queue to read (once I finish Mistborn #3).  I read the prologue of _Blade_, and I think that I will like it.  I just hope that my expectations aren't too high - a lot of people online say he's (one of) the best out there.


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## T.Allen.Smith

kayd_mon said:


> I just hope that my expectations aren't too high - a lot of people online say he's (one of) the best out there.



If you like dark & gritty stories with lots of flawed but realistic characters, you'll probably dig his work.


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## kayd_mon

T.Allen.Smith said:


> If you like dark & gritty stories with lots of flawed but realistic characters, you'll probably dig his work.



That does sound like something I'd enjoy. Also sounds like GRRM a bit, whom I like a lot.


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## Philip Overby

I wouldn't say Abercrombie is too much like Martin. He tends to be more economic with words and doesn't describe things as much. I like both styles, but Abercrombie is more the kind of author I'd like to read in my downtime. Martin's work is a bigger investment of time than Abercrombie's.


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## Ophiucha

I've read _Best Served Cold_. I don't know what it is that puts me off about Joe Abercrombie, because logically, I _should _love him. I liked the way he writes dialogue, I don't _love _gritty and dark but I prefer it to 'good vs evil', it had a few good female characters, some interesting worldbuilding things. Objectively, I _did_ like the book. I thought it was well written, a bit more sparse than most fantasy but that's what I prefer. And yet, all said and done, it didn't leave an impression on me. It didn't leave me looking for his other books on Kindle (which is where I have _BSC_). It was good, it had things I liked in it, yet something just didn't... click, for me. I'll still try the _First Law_ trilogy if I see it on sale, but it's pretty low on my list.


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## Chessie

I loved Best Served Cold but I also haven't made an effort to download his other books. Someday I will. I like Joe Abercrombie and his take on fantasy, though it isn't what I prefer. I do think GRRM is way darker and their writing styles are different. About the only thing that connects them for me is the gritty realism and sex scenes. Though Abercrombie takes home the trophy for detailed sex scenes in fantasy. Geesh.


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## Nihal

I finally finished _The Blade Itself_. I've been reading it for months, on my free time, and this fragmented reading is likely to have altered my perception of the book. It took a good time to get me hooked, and even with all the action in the start I found it slow.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the book. I don't know how much got lost in the translation—unfortunately I did not read it in English—but I like how he writes. I had just finished a terribly written book when I picked his and reading him was like quenching my thirst with cold water after an awfully hot and dry day. I caught myself laughing with his slightly twisted humor, and I didn't find his writing so dark. It's more on the honest side of the spectrum, it could be worse, a lot worse.

I plan to read more works by him and maybe re-read half of the book, in shorter intervals this time.


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## Steerpike

I'm in the middle of Red Country. Great so far.


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## teacup

I'm part way through The Blade Itself, and doesn't seem to be anything too special, right now. I'm enjoying it enough, but it's not meeting the praise I've heard, yet. It is taking a while to hook me.
I do very much like the character Jezal dan Luthar, though.


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## kayd_mon

I want to revive this because I just finished The Blade Itself. I liked it, but I don't see any reason for the hype. I plan to begin the next First Law book this week, and I hope to see some growth in his writing. I know that The Blade Itself was his first book. The characterization was excellent (internal monologs were especially good), but I felt that the plot was very weak.


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## teacup

> I want to revive this because I just finished The Blade Itself. I liked it, but I don't see any reason for the hype. I plan to begin the next First Law book this week, and I hope to see some growth in his writing. I know that The Blade Itself was his first book. The characterization was excellent (internal monologs were especially good), but I felt that the plot was very weak.



I have also finished this very recently, and I agree 100%. I've been told that book 1 is by far the weakest, though and it picks up a lot. 

I have the First Law Trilogy, but unfortunately not much time, at the moment. I'm hoping to be able to start book 2 sometime soonish.


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## Philip Overby

I've heard a lot of others say they prefer his later books, but I haven't gotten around to finishing any of them even though I like his writing a lot. My problem may be that I have Best Served Cold and The Heroes in hardcover and I just have trouble finishing hardcover books nowadays. I'm too addicted to my Kindle. Of course, I could repurchase those books for Kindle, but I don't know, I feel weird about that. I have heard about a program that is supposed to allow you to get Kindle books discounted if you have the physical book, but I'm not sure if it's been implemented yet or not.

I probably enjoyed the last two books in the First Law trilogy the most. Love the characters for sure.


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## Eagle

I thought his characters were superb. Luthar, Bayaz and especially Glokta were the reasons I read _First Law_. However I did feel the plot to be quite weak with no true resolution at the end. It made me quite divided in my opinion on the trilogy. I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about it. I do want to try his other works because his style is very enjoyable to read, but like others have said, they're not a reading priority for me right now.


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## Steerpike

Eagle said:


> I thought his characters were superb. Luthar, Bayaz and especially Glokta were the reasons I read _First Law_. However I did feel the plot to be quite weak with no true resolution at the end. It made me quite divided in my opinion on the trilogy. I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about it. I do want to try his other works because his style is very enjoyable to read, but like others have said, they're not a reading priority for me right now.



I have liked all of his work. Best Served Cold and Red Country are now my favorites, but I didn't dislike any of them. I enjoyed the plot of the First Law trilogy, and thought the ending served the tone of the books.


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## andy.peloquin

I think his First Law Trilogy was his best. The Blade Itself kind of meandered, and The Heroes just didn't have the same epic feel as the others. Loved the character of Ninefingers, the perfect contrast to the fancy-pants Jezal dan Luthar. Glokta, however, has to be my favorite of all. Cynical, sarky, and gloomy - a beautiful creation.


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## teacup

I finished Best Served Cold and now I'm around 150 pages into The Heroes.

Favourite characters:
Book 1 - Jezal
Book 2 & 3 - Logan  
BSC - At first Morveer, until Cosca came into it. And then Morveer became 3rd once Shenkt was introduced. (I want more Shenkt! I hope Abercrombie writes more with Shenkt in, but I'm not even sure if he's carrying on with the world or not?)
The Heroes - I'm not far in, but in just the first page of her first pov chapter Finree became my favourite. I'm looking forward to more of her.

Joe Abercrombie is my favourite writer right now. I love his world and characters, and the humour is just great 



Spoiler: very minor spoiler



(The scene with the Dogman and Grim being under the witch's spell was hilarious to me.)




Best Served Cold is probably my favourite so far.


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## Stephyn Blackwood

I love Abercrombie. When I got my kindle for my birthday, My GF had downloaded a bunch of books onto it she thought I'd like, and The Blade Itself was one of them. And it was the last one I read. I felt so band once I'd read it thinking _ Why the hell have I not heard of/read any of his books before?_ I quickly downloaded the rest of the trilogy and devoured them in a matter of days. Before They're Hanged is by far my favorite of the three, simply for the multitude of quotes I have from it. Such as Black Dow's classic: Has she or has she not sucked it? (Got some strange looks as I laughed my head off on the bus at that...) I never picked up any of the other books such as The Heroes and Red Country, but then I saw the Half a King had come out rather recently.  Because it is a YA book, I new I was not in for the same "grimdark" Abercrombie style. But I was pleasantly surprised, the book was far better than I'd hoped for and still contained a lot of Abercrombie's familiar style. I have recently bought The Heroes and intend to start that as soon as possible.


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## teacup

> I have recently bought The Heroes and intend to start that as soon as possible.



Just a warning, The Heroes is set after Best Served Cold. It links to some events in Best Served Cold, mentions parts, and some characters carry over. You'll miss a big part of one character's story by reading The Heroes first.
They are standalones, yes, but they do have chronological places within the series and carry on from each other (at least those 2 do, not read Red Country yet.) Reading in order isn't essential - you won't be lost as to what is happening, as the stories themselves are self contained in the single novels - but it is advised to read in order, since you will be missing out on some things (this is all if you do intend to read all standalones, of course.)


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## Nihal

So, I finally finished _The First Law_. I'm aware his later books are considered better, but I wished to read him in chronological order. The first book was a Portuguese translation, the second and third were originals in English.

It was an interesting, entertaining reading. I wasn't disappointed, and I might have taken such a long time to read it simply because I wasn't reading anything in all these months, and only now I established a schedule that suits me.

His last book kept me on my toes. Suspicions being confirmed and plot twists were very fun. Everything fell in place, finally, and it was satisfying to read. His battle scenes are fantastic. I feared for the characters, and feared more than once, because he managed to establish the notion that no one is safe. I thought it was unlikely that certain characters were to die, but I couldn't be 100% sure and it didn't exclude other horrible fates that don't include death either. I liked the books, how he writes and his universe. But I hated it too. I like gray worlds and people, but he stepped a little too much down father the line, with barely any goodness to balance the scale. It's not like it's a super extreme dark reading where everything and everyone is degrading, but it is a heavy reading, bittersweet, with more bitterness than sweetness.

So, it's a love/hate relationship. The ending made me quite sad, and I look forward to learn of what happened to the characters, look for every tiny vestige and clue of them in the other books, even if these books aren't about them–I guess, at least; I don't read synopses. I will undoubtedly read other works by him, just not now. Now I need something lighter, more balanced.


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## Feverfew

I too loved this series. The characters were often so distinct and entertaining that pages of their internal musings made for a very interesting read. 
Ninefingers is definitely my favorite, and I enjoy the double edged sword of his fame- it earns him fear and respect but will also define him against his will. The Bloody Nine scenes were great, whenever he showed up you always knew something crazy would happen. The latter half of The Blade Itself and Before They are Hanged were my favorite parts probably. I did find that the story seemed to slow down a lot in the third book, and I wondered where it was going at times. 
Very satisfied with how most of the third book wrapped things up though. Probably the best written fight scenes in my opinion. Aside from GRRM comparisons (different style of writing definitely, but still pretty grim realistic fantasy) , does anyone know of other authors in a similar vein?


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## Stephyn Blackwood

teacup said:


> Just a warning, The Heroes is set after Best Served Cold.


Thanks for the heads up, thankfully I put off reading The Heroes, to finish another series of books.


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## Stephyn Blackwood

Feverfew said:


> does anyone know of other authors in a similar vein?


You might want to try Mark Lawrence's Broken Empire Trilogy. I have read the first two and they are really good.


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## teacup

I just finished The Heroes and have Red Country beside me, ready to start.

The Heroes was a great read, absolutely loved it. All the pov characters were great, but still my favourite to read was Finree's. I think Calder would have to be my second. The linking back to BSC was very fun, too, especially finally finding out exactly what happened in Sipani. I liked how much Kroy has changed since TFL without being a pov, too.  



Spoiler: which are happy endings and which are not



I've noticed the standalones so far have had much happier endings than the First Law Trilogy. I liked the end of TFL in a bitter more than sweet kind of way, it fit well, and made me want the standalones to get more of the world and characters. These so far, though still a little bittersweet, have been more sweet than bitter. I wonder how Red Country will end.




I heard that Red Country has both Shivers and Nicomo Cosca (my last post wasn't too clear, but he is definitely my favourite pov. I doubt he'll be pov in this one though, which is a shame. I'd like to be in his head more.)


I've been trying to decide which of the 2 are my favourite, BSC or Heroes, but I loved them both. I think BSC might just win it for me because though I enjoyed The Heroes' povs a whole lot, I still prefer Morveer, Shenkt and Cosca. Nice to see Shivers having a role in The Heroes, though. 

Onto Red Country!


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## teacup

Finished Red Country. I liked it a lot, mostly for Lamb of course, but it ranks much lower than the others in this series, for me. I'm not sure exactly where I'd place it - probably just above The Blade Itself, which was my least favourite.



Spoiler: Red Country and LAOK spoilers



It was good to see Logen, Shivers, Friendly, and Cosca again (as well as all the other more minor ones.) I absolutely loved Cosca in BSC but I don't know, he didn't do it so much for me in this one. He was still funny, and I did like him despite him being even worse now. I loved his death scene, though, when he reveals that all he wants is to go back and do it all again without making so many mistakes. I think it would be hilarious if he shows up in the next trilogy and says "rumours of my death are often exaggerated. Wishful thinking, on the part of my many enemies." But I think this was quite clearly the end for him.

It seemed strange for Shivers to go so out of his way to get revenge after he already pretty much let it go, so I think he was probably sent by Calder to kill Logen. I like that Shivers seems to be changing for the better - not killing Temple, sharing his food with him, going back to kill the ghosts attacking Temple when he could have just rode away, and letting Logen live. I hope that Logen and Shivers will have fairly big parts in the next trilogy. With Shivers being in so many of the books now, it looks like Abercrombie is building him up to something.
(Also what's with the oxen's names? Scale and Calder - I don't see why Logen would choose to name his oxen that. Something from the north, sure, but these two? I don't see why he did that. He could have chosen from his old friends.)

There was a fan theory going around that the Bloody Nine was some kind of supernatural thing, maybe something from Bedesh or even the spirit of Bedesh himself, since Bedesh's gift was the ability to speak to spirits and Logen could do that. In LAOK there's a line which goes something like "knock something loose inside his skull" and this theory is that this was the Bloody Nine being expelled from Logen, since the Bloody Nine doesn't come out after that. But, there Logen is in Red Country, being the Bloody Nine. I thought the theory was pretty cool, but maybe it's still right, only Logen never lost the Bloody Nine. Maybe the Bloody Nine is Bedesh and this will be revealed in the next trilogy?



Favourite character? Lamb, definitely.
I didn't dislike Shy or Temple but they just didn't strike me as well as the characters from the other books did. I've loved every main pov character by Abercrombie so far (not including the one who only have 1 or 2 pov sections like in The Heroes or Red Country) but not these two. I liked them well enough, but it didn't go beyond that much. 

There's a line I loved from this, too. "I don't _feel _evil. But the things I done. What else can you call 'em?"

It's up there with The Heroes' 
"What kind of a ****ing wizard are you?"
"The kind you obey."

And Best Served Cold's "My name is Nicomo Cosca, famed solider of fortune, and I am here for dinner."


I heard there have been short stories in this world. Does anyone know if they're published together/will be?


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## Trick

teacup said:


> Spoiler: Red Country and LAOK spoilers
> 
> 
> 
> (Also what's with the oxen's names? Scale and Calder - I don't see why Logen would choose to name his oxen that. Something from the north, sure, but these two? I don't see why he did that. He could have chosen from his old friends.)



Just a response to something you said in the spoiler.



Spoiler: Red Country and LAOK spoilers



They are beasts of burden, not pets. It's a private joke to name dumb animals who do his bidding after former enemies.


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## teacup

> They are beasts of burden, not pets. It's a private joke to name dumb animals who do his bidding after former enemies.



Ahh, yes, that makes sense. Thanks.


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## Brian G Turner

Another Abercrombie fan here, and I recently interviewed him:
https://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/560382/

What I love most about his writing is his characterisation - Glotka in the _First Law_ trilogy has to be one of the most interesting characters I've read in fiction. But I also very much like that he writes about adult themes - by that I don't mean sex and violence, as much as the lack of moral absolutes. His characters are motivated by personal interests, rather than any external need for "good vs bad".

I've very much enjoyed his first two _Shattered Sea_ novels, too - again, characterisation, humour, and sharp storytelling, are all in there. I know the last in that trilogy has now been released - _Half A War_ - but I'm waiting for the ebook to come down a little in price first, before buying it.


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