# It gets kind of Dark.



## Nihilium 7th (Jul 7, 2015)

My current Wip has a lot of "adult" themes in in it and many dark and violent things occur through out the story (Rape, cannibalism, pedophilia etc.). I know that adult/graphic themes aren't new to fantasy but just how dark and shocking can one go without seeming.......tacky?


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## evolution_rex (Jul 7, 2015)

Will, it always depends on context. I use a lot of violence and dark elements because the themes of my stories usually relate to it. If these dark elements feel forced or don't fit with the rest of the tone, then you need to work on it. I'm not usually worried about what's tacky or not, but there are inappropriate ways to write such things like rape and pedophilia, but again it always depends on context.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jul 7, 2015)

This kind of depends on how you present these things. If you present rape and pedophilia as a "good" thing then the work will be repugnant to most people. But if you present it as a problem, something utterly repugnant, then the work will be less of a problem. That is not to say all controversy will be eliminated, it won't be, but there is no argument that you are endorsing such activities.


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## Penpilot (Jul 7, 2015)

You can get away with quite a lot. It's not what you present that matters. It's the skill in which you handle it that matters. Thoughtfully handled, the darkest of subjects can be made digestible. Clumsily handled, the most innocuous subject can be made offensive.


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## Nimue (Jul 7, 2015)

My general issue with using really dark subject matter is that it can come across as a transparent ploy by the author, as in "I want to show that this villain is really terrible, so I'll make him a pedophile" or "I want to make this marauding army horrible so I'll describe graphic rape, and then nobody can question it" or "I want people to sympathize with this character so I'll put them through terrible trauma" like awful things are some kind of writing trump card. It is easy to be turned off by over-the-top drama like this, and it can also erase all subtlety or grey area from the story.

You can write anything, but you should take care to write it well.  When you're dealing with issues and trauma that destroy people's lives in real life, make it a careful and nuanced depiction.  Consider why you're adding it. Is it just to make things more "gritty"? Does it fit with the tone and themes of the story? Do the characters interact with it in deep and complex ways? Whether or not your particular scenes work or not would be best figured out by having someone read it--preferably multiple someones.  There is no global "Never do this", but there's also no global "Yeah, that's fine."  It all depends on the writing.


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## Kazzan (Jul 7, 2015)

Be careful not to just add "adult" themes just for the sake of it. It can easily come across being edgy just for the sake of it. if there is a good reson with plot significance and if these are themes that actually get handled rather than just existing for the sake of a darker story. 

When reading Joe Abercrombies "Best Served Cold" I kind of felt he went a bit overboard with his adult themes. Basically all his characters were rotten and it started feeling like he was doing just to have a dark and "edgy" story.

Basically if there is a legitimate reason for their inclusion into the story you want to tell then as long as you feel it will work. Things happen for a reason in works of fiction.


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## Feo Takahari (Jul 7, 2015)

I think one major factor is how well the elements fit together. For instance, the central plot of Pillars of Eternity is that babies are being born without souls. That means you've got a black market in abortifacients to prevent soulless babies from being born, violence against a mother blamed for her baby's soullessness, incest in a futile attempt to keep a bloodline "pure" and avoid soullessness, violence to drive native peoples off their lands because babies born in those lands still have souls . . . I don't think there's ever an instance of "here's rape because we wanted there to be rape" or anything like that. It all comes back to the central story.


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## MineOwnKing (Jul 7, 2015)

Unless you live on top of a mountain and prefer to be paid in smiles rather than money, I would save those subjects for real world exposÃ©s. 

You only have to spend a few minutes reading negative reviews to get a vibe for how an audience will react to any of those things.

It's certainly very easy to point out societal stereotypes associated with any of the acts. 

Because of that reason, we might be able to assume that any shock value has become null in modern society. Given that assumption, you're only going to be able to tap into anger.

That's not to say that some people are not in denial, ( or at least publicly), but the majority of those types of people probably never read anyway.

So if you're already limiting yourself by trying to attract just a reading audience, then I think it's safe to say you are poking the stick of exploration at a crowd of higher IQs. 

At that point you have to ask yourself which of the two remaining target groups do you hope to infuriate?

A: The skeptics?

or 

B: The believers?

Both are a can of worms.

I suggest: keep it real or keep it fun (fantastical).

If we're not entertaining people, we're either boring them or pissing them off, both of which lead to dismal sales.


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## Feo Takahari (Jul 8, 2015)

MineOwnKing said:


> Unless you live on top of a mountain and prefer to be paid in smiles rather than money, I would save those subjects for real world exposÃ©s.
> 
> You only have to spend a few minutes reading negative reviews to get a vibe for how an audience will react to any of those things.
> 
> ...



Counterpoint: Game of Thrones becomes fastest-selling box set in a decade - Telegraph


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## MineOwnKing (Jul 8, 2015)

I don't consider Game of Thrones to be dark.


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## ChasingSuns (Jul 8, 2015)

MineOwnKing said:


> I don't consider Game of Thrones to be dark.



Perhaps not to well-versed readers such as ourselves, but to a lot of the general population it is considered to be pretty dark. But I definitely agree that if you go too dark, you do risk alienating a chunk of your potential audience. Martin does it in a way that is workable. It has more of a feeling of "well these things are messed up but they do happen", so I have problems with what is happening, but I can handle it. I personally use some darker themes in my current story, but I definitely make sure to only use them when it works/makes sense.


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## skip.knox (Jul 8, 2015)

The list from the OP raised alarm bells for me. It sounds like piling on. Any one of those actions is dark enough in itself. Truly horrible. If the story is an exploration of those, then it should be about just one of those. And I agree that it's really going to be more effective if it's non-fantasy. You don't find a lot of memorable SF about rape. It's simply not the right genre.

And if the story is about something else, then rape and pedophilia simply become decoration--dramatic lighting to make the story seem lurid. But the odds are, no matter how well you right it, it will be a distraction at best and an offense at worst.

If the OP feels a need to write about the topics, then I recommend contemporary literature. If the OP feels a need to make horrid villains, I recommend a different approach.


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## Russ (Jul 8, 2015)

I think SK makes an important point.  I was reading the OP and thinking "what kind of plot really needs all those things to deliver a thematic message."

It kind of read like the "checklist of evil" to me.


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## Nihilium 7th (Jul 8, 2015)

The thing is, in my wip, some of the characters who would be seen as "good guys" take part in some pretty repugnant acts. For example, one of the main characters turns out to have an addiction to dissecting corpses (preferably warm.). the addiction later evolves into cannibalism (which is explained in great detail.). Besides that he is an extremely likable character with almost no other flaws beyond being manipulative.

Another character is a rapist who finds out that torturing people sates his need to rape. There are a few situations where he has to decide on whether to rape someone or wait until he has the chance to torture a prisoner. One such event has him choose between torturing a man who's death will save a main character or raping a serial pedophile.

One of my beta-readers said that doing things like that forces the reader to make the decision themselves. She then said that involving the readers in situations like that might turn them off from reading.

Good and evil are subjective terms in the story and only a few characters that are focused on take part in vile acts; when they do it's for a good reason. Some of them hate themselves for what they do and really try to change. Others are cursed and have no choice and then you have the ones who embrace and love the things they do.
  In short I never right graphic things just for the sake of it there has to be a reason eyond shock value and making someone seem evil.


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## Nimue (Jul 8, 2015)

...Yeah, literally everything you've described there turns me off from reading.  The cannibal and the rapist are supposed to be _likeable_ characters? The willing audience for story like that would be very, very niche...

A fantastic author might be able to pull that off.  I'm struggling to think of how, though.  Can I ask what led you to develop these characters? Is there an element of black humor, or is this supposed to be an over-the-top dark world...?


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## Legendary Sidekick (Jul 8, 2015)

This reminds me of another post in which the OP asked if his pixie-eating character was irredeemable.

I felt like the pixie-eater's story may have had somewhat of a chance in the dark humor department, where you have this character who tortures people so he won't… yeah, that's going to alienate readers. I would expect that GRRM, even with all his fame, has managed to alienate some people with this constant depiction of abuse, and D&D (the _GoT_ show runners) may have alienated more people by taking an already evil character and making him a pedophile so…


Spoiler: so what?



…his "secret" would make him even more evil _and _conveniently set him up for Death by Arya.



I don't expect many readers would make the attempt to identify with these characters or justify the proposed dilemma. I agree with what your beta reader said, and will add that rather than make the decision myself I'm coming up with a plausible third option.


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## Nihilium 7th (Jul 8, 2015)

There is some dark humor in the story but it is not the focus of a lot of things that happen. The world in the novel is in a period war it has never seen before and society has fallen into a state of depravity because of it. At first I was going to have no instances of graphic depictions outside the realm of violence done in battle. As I went on I realized that just have people comment on the vileness of society wouldn't do the story justice. So I decided to make the story more graphic. A majority of the graphic scenes are described in detail and a lot is left up to the readers imagination. There are a handful of scenes where the acts are described  in detail but only because something was happening that was important to the plot or character. 
  For example the scene I explained above where a choice had to be made was never shown in the story, only the out come of his decision. Many other scenes are described through a characters vivid hallucinations. So instead of eating someones spleen he sees himself eating a steak. 
  I never go dark for the sake of going dark In fact, the dark scenes are about 15% of the story.


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## skip.knox (Jul 8, 2015)

This was the original question
I know that adult/graphic themes aren't new to fantasy but just how dark and shocking can one go without seeming.......tacky?

My answer is: that far. The things you described. I can't picture a character or situation that would be so interesting I would want to read about cannibalism in great detail. If I want that, I'll read an anthropologist writing about real cannibals. I tried to say this before but perhaps I wasn't clear enough. There's a place for the themes described. That place is not fantasy. Nor is it science fiction, nor is it cozy mysteries, nor is it pulp adventure novels. This is not to say it shouldn't be written; only that I won't read it in that genre. I *might* read it if it's contemporary literature or if it's a true-life account.


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## Russ (Jul 8, 2015)

Nihilium 7th said:


> In short I never right graphic things just for the sake of it there has to be a reason eyond shock value and making someone seem evil.



With great respect, I disagree with your contention.  All the dilemmas, human frailties and epic struggles you apparently want to write about can be explored in aggressive and dramatic ways without cannibalism or raping serial pedophiles.  The reason such extremes are chosen is to shock.

I am not sure what the theme or message of your WIP is, or what your goal for it is, but I don't think there is anything resembling a market for it.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 8, 2015)

Making a villain a pedophile has become one of those things that make people roll their eyes. Writers think it's an easy way to establish evil, but the pedophilia needs to have a purpose in the story. Otherwise, it's just a prop, and a poor one at that.

If for example, that part of the story was center stage & the author was one with exceptional skill (like in Nabokov's Lolita) then it serves a purpose. It is the character. It is the story.

As with any choice, we need to be mindful of the purpose it serves in our story. This is especially true when dealing with sensitive issues. 

If you want to shock people, I say go for it. But do it justice with proper storytelling. Don't use shock as a cheap and easy device. It won't be well received.


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## Nihilium 7th (Jul 8, 2015)

From what I've seen here I might have to tone some things down or find a way to rework some of the scenes. The overlying theme of the novel is the malleable nature of morality and the curse of free will and accountability. I try to use various characters to display those themes. One example is a prince who is honestly trying to help his country but is unknowingly cursed with an addiction to human flesh. He is unaware of his addiction because he suffers from severe delusions and hallucinations. In order to ensure his countries stability he does all the despicable things one expects a morally grey politician/noble to do when they believe that they are their countries last hope (order assassinations, back-stab, steal, etc). When he does find out about his cannibalism and the fact that his servants have been feeding his addiction discretely so that he wouldn't realize his sickness, he hates himself and nearly commits suicide only stopping because he thinks he is the only thing thwarting his countries destruction (which seems to actually be true.).


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## ChasingSuns (Jul 8, 2015)

I personally think that the cannibalism could work, if it has enough reason to be there. In this case, is said character cursed as in he has some power over him that is causing him to be a cannibal? Because if he just goes around eating people for no reason other than for the sake of darker tones, then I would say that the story doesn't need it. Honestly though, Hannibal Lector is one of the most memorable characters in pop culture, and he ate a lot of people. So it is possible to make it work. Rape on the other hand is VERY hard to make work when the rapist is a central character who is doing it a lot. At least, that's my personal opinion.


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## skip.knox (Jul 9, 2015)

Note however, ChasingSuns, that Lector is set in contemporary society. I don't think he would have been nearly so effective in a fantasy tale.


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## Russ (Jul 9, 2015)

Nihilium 7th said:


> From what I've seen here I might have to tone some things down or find a way to rework some of the scenes. The overlying theme of the novel is the malleable nature of morality and the curse of free will and accountability. I try to use various characters to display those themes. One example is a prince who is honestly trying to help his country but is unknowingly cursed with an addiction to human flesh. He is unaware of his addiction because he suffers from severe delusions and hallucinations. In order to ensure his countries stability he does all the despicable things one expects a morally grey politician/noble to do when they believe that they are their countries last hope (order assassinations, back-stab, steal, etc). When he does find out about his cannibalism and the fact that his servants have been feeding his addiction discretely so that he wouldn't realize his sickness, he hates himself and nearly commits suicide only stopping because he thinks he is the only thing thwarting his countries destruction (which seems to actually be true.).



Those are very powerful themes to explore and I would encourage you to explore them.

But you need to think about the tools you are using to explore them.

Done very well, rape, cannibalism, pedophilia etc all can be used to explore important aspects of the human condition.

But I think each of those is a super strong ingredient for your story.  You have to work really hard and write thoughtfully and carefully to not lose the story in shock and gore with just one of those ingredients.  Throwing them all in is a receipe for disaster.

I would think you could build a good story around one of those elements, though it will not be easy, but two or more I think makes your task near impossible.


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## Nihilium 7th (Jul 9, 2015)

Currently it is believed to be a curse mainly because they want tit to be. The prince is currently wrestling with the fact that he is indeed a monster and is trying to change somehow. That conflict is another theme in the story; the faults people have and how they live with them. One of the things I want to do is have my readers peer into the life of extremely flawed characters that would be scorned in today's society maybe even wrestle with the same dilemmas.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 9, 2015)

Nihilium 7th said:


> Currently it is believed to be a curse mainly because they want tit to be. The prince is currently wrestling with the fact that he is indeed a monster and is trying to change somehow. That conflict is another theme in the story; the faults people have and how they live with them. One of the things I want to do is have my readers peer into the life of extremely flawed characters that would be scorned in today's society maybe even wrestle with the same dilemmas.


You're talking about more than mere faults & flaws though. You're speaking of depravity and asking the reader to sympathize.  

I won't try to discourage you from tackling dark subject matter, but if you're going to do so, I suggest not trying to gain sympathy. You can write an interesting character and story centered around an unredeemable person.


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## X Equestris (Jul 9, 2015)

One can certainly write about these things, but don't expect the reader to sympathize with characters who are doing them.  The harder you try to force the reader to feel sympathy, the more they will rebel, if they've even stuck with you that long.


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## Feo Takahari (Jul 9, 2015)

I'll go against the crowd and defend your prince. Dexter . . . The Woodsman . . . M . . . Even I Am Not a Serial Killer. The murderer or torturer can be sympathetic and likable, provided they struggle against their impulses. From the sounds of it, your rapist is a bigger problem. If he "just" tortures people in place of raping them, he's still giving in.


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 9, 2015)

Now I've mentioned this before on this site, but I'll mention it again, I've written rape, abortion, and pedophilia into my stories, so know that before I say this...I don't like it.  I don't like the ideas of rape and pedophilia being thrown casually into a story.  I like the idea of the cannibalism however.  I could imagine a situation where someone is cursed and must "feed" off something disgusting because it controls his curse (like maybe he's a werewolf and eating human flesh once in a while keeps him from changing and tearing villagers apart, or something), but sexual depravity is another matter entirely.  It hist closer to home I think for a lot of people.  

When I wrote pedophiles into my stories (twice), I did it for very specific reasons and the lead-up to the appearance of the first incident was half a book.  Basically, halfway through a novel, a character realizes his friend IS IN FACT a murderer, and she killed her father, because the boy she's dragging around isn't really her brother, he's her son and the product of incest rape.  Okay, I know that sounds pretty harsh, but yeah, that's what I chose to go with because it served a larger purpose than shock value to the reader.  It helped establish why throughout her adult life she was unmarried and alone, and because of her solitude, she grew resentful of the boy she blamed for her loneliness.  It's only after she falls in love with this guy and gets to confront her grandfather, that she becomes the boy's mother again, embracing him when her lover accepts him and wants him as a stepson.  That was really the concept I wanted to broadcast, not the morality of incest, pedophilia, whatever it was.  I played it like a desperate, lonely, angry man whose wife died young and he had to raise his daughter alone.  None of her early life was ever on screen, but her entire future was shaped by her rejection of the way her father treated her and how she chose to poison him and free herself from abuse.  She lived happily with her son, alone, for a few years, but then once her grandfather found her and took her into his home, her resentment started when her son became her brother and she was told no one would love her if she ever spoke of her "secret".  Later in the story, a man who asked for her hand in marriage years ago basically lets the cat out of the bag and tells her he understands why she broke off their engagement (because he's a werewolf), and she understands that for years she's resented her son, when all along, it was her grandfather who sought to control her and "keep" her forever, to make up for the mistake he made years earlier when he sent her mother (his daughter) away from him to safety.

The other mention of pedophilia I wrote was aboard a ship, between an officer and a boy member of the crew, and my MC, the guy who is in love with the woman mentioned above, puts a stop to that as soon as he finds out.  He has a strong fatherly instinct and though it jeopardizes his mission of secrecy, he rescues the boy from his abuser.  That also had a greater impact on the story, because the mention wasn't about making anyone evil, it was more a segment about the harsh realities of life as a lone young person in the company of more powerful adults.  The boy plays a critical role as the MC takes him under his wing and serves as his protector aboard the ship, and he turns into a helpful ally when they land.  I don't see anything wrong with the concept there either, but I COULD always change it to the boy getting into trouble for stealing or something, but for now I'm leaving it, unless betas feel it's just the wrong concept to portray.  Sometimes, what we think of as "no big deal" turns readers away like a stiff-arm, and all we can do is try to understand how our stories affect readers in the end.  What works for one story might not for another.

I would say that a person who is addicted to human flesh might be hard to portray, but if it's for a reason (especially magical), it makes sense.  If you try to portray someone addicted to sexually assaulting children, that's a little harder to gain sympathy on.  Firstly, because it's unnatural.  I know, cannibalism is unnatural as well, but it isn't a stretch to say humans eat meat and meat is animals, and humans aren't a first choice, but in a survival situation, you might just have to eat someone...hopefully someone who's dying already or who is recently deceased.  Unfortunately, survival situations don't evoke arousal...in fact, they suppress those desires.  So using a drive like that to explain an addiction is sort of counter-productive.  I'd think it's more likely the character in question would perhaps be attracted to children (I'm not sure how it works because I don't feel this way so can't presume to understand the workings of a person who feels this way), but he puts himself in dangerous situations to allay those urges.  Maybe he lives dangerously because he sees himself as depraved and wants to end his suffering?  Maybe he drinks a lot.  Maybe he regularly punishes himself with corporal punishment, self harm?  There are a lot of ways to go with this, but I have to ask myself, is this all making him a better character?


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 9, 2015)

Feo Takahari said:


> I'll go against the crowd and defend your prince. Dexter . . .


I'm ignoring the other references because of my low level of familiarity. However, Dexter is an interesting case. But, keep in mind, he fulfilled the repressed wish of the viewer who might want to take revenge on the nastiest members of our society, but would never act on those impulses. If he was merely a serial killer with little rhyme or reason, living without a code, it would be much harder to find commonality. It's also important to note that Dexter behaves in ways that are not in line with typical sociopathic behavior. Still it's a good story, and yes, it can be done.

I referenced Lolita earlier. Humbert is an unlikable, unredeemable pedophile. But it's a great story & he's an interesting character because we witness his depravity & rationalization through his eyes. There's no need to condone the behavior or sympathize on any level. 

In both cases, the depravity is in the spotlight & central to the character and story. It is not simply one of several dark topics & they're most certainly not included for shock value, or grit, alone.


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## Feo Takahari (Jul 9, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I'm ignoring the other references because of my low level of familiarity. However, Dexter is an interesting case. But, keep in mind, he fulfilled the repressed wish of the viewer who might want to take revenge on the nastiest members of our society, but would never act on those impulses. If he was merely a serial killer with little rhyme or reason, living without a code, it would be much harder to find commonality. It's also important to note that Dexter behaves in ways that are not in line with typical sociopathic behavior. Still it's a good story, and yes, it can be done.
> 
> I referenced Lolita earlier. Humbert is an unlikable, unredeemable pedophile. But it's a great story & he's an interesting character because we witness his depravity & rationalization through his eyes. There's no need to condone the behavior or sympathize on any level.
> 
> In both cases, the depravity is in the spotlight & central to the character and story. It is not simply one of several dark topics & they're most certainly not included for shock value, or grit, alone.



The closest to Nihilium's story would probably be M. The main character is unable to stop himself from killing children, but he hates what he's doing and wishes he could free himself. The movie's message is that he's not evil, just a sick person who needs treatment. The whole thing's on Youtube.


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## ChasingSuns (Jul 9, 2015)

skip.knox said:


> Note however, ChasingSuns, that Lector is set in contemporary society. I don't think he would have been nearly so effective in a fantasy tale.



Very true, but I guess that what I am getting at is that it is possible to go kinda dark in fiction. But I do think that to force sympathy on a character is gonna push readers away. I can't say I ever sympathized with Lector, or Dexter, or Harvey Keitel's character from Bad Lieutenant. Or several other terrible individuals that were a main character in a story. I definitely am having  hard time with the rapist who had to torture people in order to not rape them... that (to me) seems a bit excessive. I think that a lot of people would have a hard time reading that character's story.


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 9, 2015)

yeah...I'm not even sure that's a thing.  I've never heard of that.  Now, I'm not that well-researched on the subject, but does that really exist?  I mean, isn't it a progression sort of thing, like first you torture, rape and maim victims and then kill them, and then keep parts of them?  I've never heard of someone substituting torture for rape if they're inclined to be a rapist and exert power in that specific way.  Actually, this topic is sort of getting too much for me, not because I'm sensitive, but because I'm not sure the original concept makes sense.  My question would still be why?  Why would you choose to write a rapist rather than a kleptomaniac?  Or a person who loves torture rather than an arrogant idiot?  I'm just not understanding why those particular character profiles would appeal to readers any more than another sort of flawed character who can get himself into trouble by just being himself.  I'd think if the character is a serial rapist who suppresses his sexual angst by torturing people and killing them instead, what's his story going to be about?  I mean, if you're writing a story to make a close study of this type of behavior and how it ruins his existence and he eventually commits suicide or something dramatic, then I get it and have no problem, but fantasy stories most often include some sort of adventure, quest, or overcoming a problem to the betterment of a place/ city/ the world.  Not that I think it needs to be light-hearted because mine certainly isn't.  But my question is, how much of the story is devoted just to understanding the characters nature and the flaws he must keep in check?  And what is the rest of the story about?  and why are there three similarly fatally flawed character?  A cannibal, a pedophile, and a rapist/ torturer?  All in the same story?  Wow.  That's a lot of questionable stuff all in the same story.  My fear for this work isn't that you can't write a good story about a depraved and immoral, or mentally ill person, it's that there's only so many ways to describe the act of suppressing an urge.  How many scenes do you expect to devote to that single act?  And what are the characters' goals?  I can't see their problems as their goals and antagonists working out well.


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## ChasingSuns (Jul 9, 2015)

I completely agree with what Caged Maiden said. I think that all of that in one story is a bit much. Like I said, I do think that the cannibal prince can be workable, and this is partially because it seems like there's more to it than just him eating people. Everything else seems like a bit much. Not to say it's impossible, I definitely believe that anything is possible in writing. But... I can't help but to think... it just seems like overkill.


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## Nihilium 7th (Jul 9, 2015)

There is only one character central to the plot who is involved with pedophilia and it is because he was forced to in order to save his own children. He eventually commits suicide because he can't live with the guilt. I never wrote him actually performing the acts though. The character who happens to be a rapist only rapes prostitutes (male and female.), other sexual deviants and petty criminals. Most of his "hunts" aren't shown unless it needs to be. Different societies in the novel mark adulthood differently and because of that some cultures in real life might have a problem with certain relationships while others will not.
  I do plan to make some changes; especially scenes depicting graphic actions in detail.


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## ChasingSuns (Jul 10, 2015)

Nihilium 7th said:


> There is only one character central to the plot who is involved with pedophilia and it is because he was forced to in order to save his own children. He eventually commits suicide because he can't live with the guilt. I never wrote him actually performing the acts though. The character who happens to be a rapist only rapes prostitutes (male and female.), other sexual deviants and petty criminals. Most of his "hunts" aren't shown unless it needs to be. Different societies in the novel mark adulthood differently and because of that some cultures in real life might have a problem with certain relationships while others will not.
> I do plan to make some changes; especially scenes depicting graphic actions in detail.



Well with that in mind, it could be possible to pull off the pedophilia thing. Still though, it is gonna be hard to get people on board. I mean, really it's hard to say for sure without seeing the work, but until then all that I can say is that it can be VERY hard to keep your audience on board with this much intensity in terms of dark tones. A rapist is still gonna be potentially very hard to get readers to swallow. Not to say it can't be done, it can. But it's just gonna take a LOT of work to make it happen. At least, those are my thoughts


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 10, 2015)

Nihilium 7th said:


> The character who happens to be a rapist only rapes prostitutes....


This is what bothers me. Perhaps it isn't as intended, but when you write things like "The rapist _only_ rapes prostitutes..." it brings a lot into question. 

A crime shouldn't be weighed against the victim. What does it matter if the rapist attacks prostitutes or suburban housewives? It's still a violent and atrocious crime. 

If you're going to tackle seriously dark subject matter (which is perfectly within the realm of genre fiction), you need to do so with a modicum of understanding and respect. The subject matter needs the attention it deserves. Otherwise, it's window dressing and a poor choice.


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## Feo Takahari (Jul 10, 2015)

I'm less struck by "prostitutes" itself than by "other sexual deviants," with the implication that being a prostitute equals sexual deviation. Maybe the world of your story has a different history and culture attached to prostitution, but I'm not sure I'd buy an otherwise crapsack setting full of misery and exploitation where all the prostitutes love their work and chose that career voluntarily. (And for that matter, "sexual deviants?" Unless you're talking about people who have sex with dogs or something, a post-gay-marriage reader isn't that likely to jump on the idea that they're Bad and deserve to be raped.)


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## Russ (Jul 10, 2015)

Do you have plans to sell or publish this work?  If so what market do you have in mind?


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## Legendary Sidekick (Jul 10, 2015)

> pedophilia … because he was forced to in order to save his own children.


I have three daughters and I love them dearly. I could not imagine myself doing… that… to another child to save my own. I wouldn't believe my captor would truly spare me and my daughters if I did… that.

If I read about a character who did something horrible to an innocent person _while aroused_ because he wanted to save a different innocent person, the story ends there as far as I'm concerned.

So far, the only time I've seen anything similar was in the movie _SE7EN_. The lust killing. That it happened to a prostitute didn't change the fact that I thought it was one of the most ridiculous premises, dark for darkness' sake. I didn't walk out of the theater–I was with friends who, I assumed, wanted to finish the movie. But that scene was the immersion-breaker. For the remainder of the movie, I was wondering what went through the writer's head and how many sins so far? The answer to that question would help me calculate how much longer I had to sit there. The ending wasn't a shock at all because (1) it was predictably dark and (2) I didn't care.


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## Nihilium 7th (Jul 10, 2015)

Yeah. I think I should explain the kind of city he is from.  The character in question is "Lictor of the Law" meaning he's in charge dishing out punishment and what not. The city he lives in is a what you would call a "Socialist Utopia". Everyone gets a the same amount of money from the royal coffers depending on which level of the city they are from. The "lowest" in this city lives like gentry compared to almost every other country.  In addition to that it is an extremely liberal city in terms of sex compared to lets say America today. Homosexuality is the norm, a person is considered an adult the moment they can naturally produce children  and go through a coming of age ceremony; and polygamy is not only legal but encouraged. A sexual deviant would have to do something extremely sick and irredeemable (Necrophilia or Pedophilia are examples.) Prostitution in this city is seen as deplorable in this city because it is different from working in a brothel or a sex temple. Prostitutes basically not only get money from the 'Coffers' but go around gaining extra money by servicing those who are married and don't want to get caught in a brothel.
 Not sure if that synopsis helps.

As for the father. His children are the last family he has because his tribe was killed because of a power they genetically had. Those who captured him (This takes part in a different city than the one above) wanted slaves who possessed their power so he had him impart a piece of his soul to girls(having sex imparts the greatest amount ones souls) old enough to get pregnant but young enough to be brainwashed. In the process both the girls and their children gained the power. 

I do plan for the book to be sold as a fantasy book akin to ASOIF or the Book of The New Sun series. So dark and not so much from younger readers.


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## Russ (Jul 10, 2015)

Nihilium 7th said:


> I do plan for the book to be sold as a fantasy book akin to ASOIF or the Book of The New Sun series. So dark and not so much from younger readers.



I would be greatly surprised is a traditional publisher would buy it.  If you self pub it is going to be tough to find a market.


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 10, 2015)

I would go further and say I'd be greatly surprised if anyone at all wanted to read it. 

I think this entire project is ludicrous, and I'm sorry if that offends you.  Realistically, if I read this blurb I'm forming of this book in my mind, I'd consider it not a fantasy tale for reader enjoyment, but another unimpressively blatant example of writer masturbation--a term I use for when self-indulgence becomes the premise of the novel.  Not the self-indulgence of a character, but of the writer himself.

I remember the first time I thought of it in this way--before I ever considered publishing myself.  I was at a con and got cornered by a man selling his book.  While my friend and I tried to politely feign interest and take his cute little post cards, we were really trying to leave his presence immediately.  The book was, get this, written in elvish.  If that isn't a case of writer self-gratification without a care for his reader, I don't know what is.  And I'm sorry to say, I think that's what you're doing here too.

The reason I feel compelled and authorized to speak so frankly (and I doubt you'll want to hear anything of my advice again in the future), is because what you're doing is offensive.  This concept is all your choices.  None of it is necessary, and that's what makes it self-pleasure.  The very concept that a person "could" rape someone if they didn't want to is ludicrous!  I've known a fair amount of men who have been pushy bastards, but when I stuck a fist in their chest and said, "I'm ****ing serious, back off," they got the message.  Most of the time their sails deflate before my words come out.  And to couple that with pedophilia?  Nonsense.  Utter garbage and nonsense.  And the worst part of it is that it isn't necessary.  At all.

And then to have a rapist enact sexual violence on both male and female prostitutes as a form of punishment...wow, how many people do you feel like alienating?  I can't think of a single person who would want to read this.

I think there's plenty of room for dark themes in fiction and fantasy, and I've already mentioned I explored them (and not in some fairy-tale cutesie way, I was pretty raw when I went there) but this is a desperate and hopeless story, irredeemable in my eyes, because the concepts are so far gone, they cannot ever amount to something worth their time in creating.  I encourage you to carefully consider how the male anatomy works, how the minds of even immoral persons work, and how people will relate to characters who so obviously aren't sympathetic.  

@ the scribes...what the hell is happening around here?  We've had too many threads about rape and pedophilia and I'm not okay with this.  Why do we continue to see the same question time and again..."is it okay if I make my character a rapist if he had a really good reason to do it?"  NO!  No it's not okay.  Too many women in America have been victims of sexual assault.  Many of the men reading are married to those women or are their brothers or fathers.  This isn't okay!  Sexual assault happens, yes.  It isn't as rare as we wish to believe.  But stop using it for shock value or to create a world based around sexual deviance.  There are so many better ways to make your story dark.  I've found dozens!  Build a world around another concept, please!  And if you MUST go this route, expect to feel the back of my hand by way of this kind of post when you bring it into our forum for the hundredth time.  You have all been warned.  I don't ever want to discourage asking questions, indeed, I've talked extensively about these items in the past and will continue to do so as far as the question is legitimate, and the writer has respect, but I cannot stomach this.


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## Russ (Jul 10, 2015)

Hear, hear.


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## Nihilium 7th (Jul 10, 2015)

I get where you are coming from and respect your opinion. One of my beta-readers has views very similar to yours. I remember her words being something akin to "The lead up to your most vile scenes are wonderful and in the context of the story make perfect sense, but, I hate the fact you had to go to such extremes." 

After reading your post I can already see that you've made up your mind. But let me attempt to explain once more. The pedophile in question raped no one. The four girls in question the youngest of which is 12 were brainwashed from birth to think getting pregnant by the father was their duty (Let me remind you that in many countries and cultures 12 is the age at which a female becomes a woman.)
As for the rapist. He knows what he does is deplorable and he hates it. Which is why he finds ways to live with himself. This isn't some made up scenario of mine. There are many people in the world who suffer from the same problem. One of the things I try to do in the novel is display that struggle. Not every addict wants to shove a needle in their arm; some serial killers can't control their urges; necrophiliacs can't help that they are attracted to corpses, kleptomaniacs can't stop the urge to steal; and yes even pedophiles are slaves to their psychological make-up. What I try to do is show that not every one who takes part in evil acts is evil; some hate themselves and are told they should hate themselves.
  As someone who is more acquainted with the darkness of humanity than majority of the world in ways I hope nobody has to experience; I can empathize with reactions to the matters displayed in my novel, but it is for that same reason I believe books like mine should be written, to hopefully enlighten even one person to the grey nature of life. 
  Many of the scenes I'm describing are read differently when read in context, especially when read with an open mind. And there are indeed many of the archetypical bad guy/good guy stereotypes in the novel.
One of my other beta-readers (and psychology professor.) told me that the book is "too" real in its portrayal the psychology of the human mind and because of that will not be well received by sheltered or sensitive (naive was the word he used) readers.
Another told me that if I'm in this to make money I'll have to take out every dark scene from the book because people don't want to see the darkness in the world or themselves. But as I said before, I will be softening the descriptions and portrayals in the novel just enough so that it will be bearable for people of thinner skin to read. I will not however change the overlying theme even if only a niche set of readers decide to pick up my book, I am just fine with not making wads of cash with my story.

As I said before, darkness for the sake of darkness is not the business I'm in. Certain scenes in the novel hit home for me and admittedly are kind of cathartic; but in no way am I writing this for the simple pleasure of feeding the depravity within anyone. Nor for my own selfish desires.


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## Russ (Jul 10, 2015)

Nihilium 7th said:


> I am just fine with not making wads of cash with my story.



Well I am glad to hear that.

I was going to respond to the rest of the condescending self-contradictory clap-trap in the post but then I thought to myself, why bother?  The alleged psychology professor would just think me naive and I could bear such a thing in my thin skinned state.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 10, 2015)

Keep it civil please. The discussion may rouse passionate feelings and reactions, but let's not stray into personal attacks.


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## Tom (Jul 10, 2015)

Wow...just wow. Doing some serious button-mashing here for me. Pedophilia? Check. Rape used as punishment? Check. Calling prostitutes sexual deviants? Check. This is the kind of thing I can't help but get angry about. 

You know why? 

Stuff has happened to me. Just as you've hinted stuff has happened to you. But I don't write about it. I don't need to. I don't _want_ to. I've shoved that sh*t into the furthest corner of my mind and carried on my way, albeit with wariness and some new fears. I don't feel the need to tell other people about the darkness of this world. They most likely already know. 

The world has enough stories full of brutality and sexual violence already. Why do you feel the need to add yet one more title with the same contents? Yes, we get that we're surrounded by depravity and senseless violence. We often don't read fantasy to be enlightened about the "gray nature of life". We read it to _escape_ the gray nature of life. Why not acknowledge that, though the world is dark, yes, it also has some light in it? 

And seriously, I would refrain from reading your book based on your attitude alone, even if I didn't feel enormously enraged and discomfited by the material you've presented. That big-ass flounce you pulled up there isn't doing you any favors.


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 10, 2015)

I hope you don't think I'm naive or sheltered or even sensitive.  I'm not the moral white knight some folks are.  I'm bipolar and have lived the majority of my life in the gray scale of things.  I've also seen a lot of things in this world that are nearer to the black end of that scale.  What I'm merely saying, is that this isn't appropriate for a fantasy story in my opinion.  A psychological thriller?  Sure.  I mean, what would Sybil be without her mother's cruelty?  What would Lolita be without a pedophile?  I'm not arguing that exploring the darker side of the human condition is okay.  I just read Falconer a year ago and loved it, and it has plenty of moral gray area.  I'm just saying that evaluating the story you're trying to tell, is a part of being a writer.  i'm not doing away with my incest relationship background even if readers are disgusted by it.  I like it for the story, and that's the end of that.  

When I spoke of this concept being irredeemable, I meant it.  Wads of cash aside, this isn't a good concept, and the fundamental reasoning behind my belief in that, is that where some psychological books are about overcoming the conditions, or a victim dealing with the consequences, they find an audience because they're staged as studies about those issues.  Fantasy isn't a genre that supports that in the capacity you probably need.

Now, I've gone over this many times, but when in human history is 12 an age for marriage?  Many people quote this but don't know.  In India today, we see brides as young as 5.  But they are not wives in every sense of the word.  They come from rural communities where marriage offers them a future and protection.  They do not consummate their relationships until of a proper age.  In other places in this world, young women are married to much older men, true, but look closer at those societies.  Again, you'll find that a man may have several young wives, but he's meant to financially support the household.  Those are cultures where women have little status or value, unfortunately.  They aren't educated, and are limited to bearing children.

I'm not arguing the morality of either of these issues, but what is the story?  If I were writing a tale about one of those young wives, wouldn't I be exploring how she missed home?  How she felt like less of a woman because another wife had his true love, whereas she didn't?  I certainly wouldn't be mentioning it lightly.  It seems you have a feeling that your story has a greater meaning, and I'm fine accepting that, but you must also realize that many Western women know much less than I do about how this world works today and in its history.  The mere concept of a twelve-year-old being married to a man three times her age will turn their stomaches.  We're not comfortable thinking about our children being grown up so young.  I think there's nothing wrong with the concept, but then setting plays a huge role.  In England in the Renaissance, the median age for first-time brides (not widows), was 25.  That's what it is today!  Those few 12-year-olds who were married lived with family apart from their husbands.

I was well grown when I was fourteen and could understand love and sex, but many people can't.  So, please don't think I'm some sort of idealist who just can't handle the truth.  I mean, have you seen my profile pic?  I'm anything but "normal" and I frequently explore dangerous and dark characters because I sympathize with them.  But I can't sympathize with this because I don't think it's at all realistic in how you're describing it.  A while ago I lived in New Mexico and bodies started turning up in the desert.  They'd been deposited there for 30 years, all prostitutes and all in the same place.  It's clear one person was behind it, so I understand how certain individuals can have it in for a certain kind of person (especially a kind of person who is easily missed and called a runaway or whatever), but the families of those women who were identified were crushed to know their daughters weren't simply missing, out there somewhere and alive.  They'd been murdered and stuffed under the sand, where they lay in indignity for decades, some of them.  BY portraying your character how you propose, you are almost advocating the act of rape by dehumanizing those victims.  BUt they're still people, of no less value than any other.

I watched a youtube video I dare not post here because it's gut-wrenching and tragic, but it is called "David's Story" if you want to look it up.  It's about a young boy who  was autistic and the doctors said he couldn't feel pain because of his condition, so his parents treated him as less than human.  They locked him in a room at home, with no door knob so his sister wouldn't let him out.  They starved and beat him and I can only imagine the reasons behind it, but it was so sad.  He eventually dies because of blunt force trauma when one of his periodic almost-drownings in a bathtub for bad behavior at school resulted in skull fracture.  He was almost five years old and weighed 27 pounds.  I am not a sensitive person, but I cannot get that image out of my mind some days, how very sad it is to treat any human with so little compassion.  He was doing well in school, other than stealing food from other kids (because he was being starved at home), and I'm crying as I write this because it bothers me so deeply.  If I wanted to write a story about a similar event, I'd have to understand that there are people who it will deeply bother, and that's if I do it well.  If I do a shitty job on it, it'll be a thousand times worse.

Just keep that in mind.  

Okay, I'm not saying these issues are individually problematic, my position is that this isn't a story.  This is a psychological study of three people with conditions, and I can't imagine any of them being hugely entertaining as main characters in a fantasy adventure, let alone all three.  This is just too much.  And the worst part is that if you want to write a person with such a condition, I'd recommend devoting a significant amount of time to said condition (like I did when I made the young woman very cold to her son/ brother because of her resentment).  Unfortunately, when juggling all these concepts, I just can't ever see this being a story worth reading.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Jul 10, 2015)

To be honest, I don't even feel comfortable participating in this topic because I want to be sensitive to any members who were victims of sexual abuse or are close to such victims, and I wonder if I'm making matters worse by keeping the thread alive. But I want to say that such abuse is a harsh reality to many people, and to create a moral dilemma in which a character "must" be a rapist or pedophile… as the author, you don't get to explain your way out of it. You ask if your premise is tacky and I don't know why you asked if the answer won't affect your decision one way or the other. I don't think MS members misunderstood because you have a beta reader saying pretty much what CM said, and the professor also warned you that "naive" people won't buy your book.

By the way, I sincerely hope the professor said "naive" to sugarcoat his advice–as opposed to someone in the psychology field actually thinking someone would have a problem with the portrayals of sexual abuse because they are naive. I work with teens and have had a lot of students who were girls who have been with men more than twice their age–some forcibly, some willingly, some paid. What would be naive is to think that a victim of rape or pedophilia wants to be enlightened to "the grey nature of life."


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 10, 2015)

What LS said.  This is just stupid to even entertain any longer.  You have my personal answer.  Now, I'm going to take my kids for a walk because I promised to do it a few hours earlier and i'm not in the mood to try to write my WiP.  I hope at least the next time someone brings up this conversation, they read what we've said time and again in the past.  There are about five threads on exactly this same subject floating around out there, and we need not rehash it again.  Ever.  If you have a legitimate question about how a victim copes after sexual abuse, we have that thread too and a lot of great info in it.  Otherwise, let's not talk about "how to get a reader to sympathize with my rapist MC" Plain English: It ain't happening.


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## Nimue (Jul 10, 2015)

I would bet anything that your beta-reader is uncomfortable and unhappy reading your writing, but feels socially constrained to continue.  I have been in that situation before, and I no longer read that person's writing.

She's telling you that _she does not like reading it_ and you're taking that as obscure validation.

Writing can be therapeutic, absolutely.  The place for that is _between you and a therapist._ Don't push that in front of other people when they've clearly expressed their discomfort with reading it.

What you call naÃ¯vety is a respect for victims of trauma like this, and a reluctance to exploit real horror in fiction.  Don't confuse a fascination for the taboo for maturity--if anything, it shows incredible immaturity and lack of empathy.

GRR Martin is an experienced, Hugo Award-winning author.  You are proposing a novel of even worse, more graphic situations, as an aspiring author who leaves a spelling or grammatical error in almost every other sentence.

Dark situations can be written into fiction--when they are given the weight, respect, and distance that they deserve.  Not when they are crammed into a fantasy world apparently designed around them.  Please don't insult our intelligence by saying you've designed protagonists that rape and torture, dissect warm bodies and eat them, and rape their own daughters repeatedly to get them pregnant out of service to a moral or philosophical point.  _This is how you've introduced your story to us!_ I cannot imagine that anyone other than you really wants to read it.  Please examine your reasons for writing this, and your reasons for putting it in front of other people, rape and gore-first.


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## Tom (Jul 10, 2015)

Wait, _necrophilia? _ I'll admit I skimmed much of this thread because I couldn't stomach the obsessive harping on sexual violence, but _what?_ You are never going to get a trad publisher to pick this up! I hope you have no delusions about that. 

Sorry for being blunt, but this makes me physically ill. Please do us all a favor and write about something else.


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## Feo Takahari (Jul 10, 2015)

A couple years back, a poster here described how his magic system ran on life and death, so his MC made herself stronger by getting herself pregnant and aborting the fetuses. He said he wanted to get people to consider their morality and ask themselves whether they had a reason to call that "wrong." So I thought about it and decided I would consider it wrong and I wouldn't like or sympathize with the character. Just because you're setting up a test for the readers doesn't mean they'll "pass" it in the way you want them to, nor does it mean they won't test your characters--or you--themselves. You need to consider what, if anything, will make people want to read your book if they don't think the same way you do.

Speaking personally, I try to make sure there's _someone_ to sympathize with. If I've got two murderous hypocrites and a well-intentioned coward, I've also got a lovable rogue who only steals to survive. If one protagonist values might above all else, and the second wants to protect people but has no regard for free will, the third is a naive kid who wants to be Batman. There needs to be room for at least a couple different types of people to feel empathy or kinship for some of your cast.


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## skip.knox (Jul 10, 2015)

I'm with the majority here. I'm done with this. The OP asked for opinions. Opinions were given and are unanimous (pretty unusual around here!). Yet the OP persists in trying to explain. That no longer feels like explanation, it feels like trying to get us to validate his choices.

And I'll say it one more time: if you feel the need to write this sort of story, don't make it a fantasy. It doesn't fit. I don't know how to say it any plainer than that.


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## Penpilot (Jul 10, 2015)

I have a jumble of thoughts in my head that I'm trying to put together as a coherent thought. 

From what's described, the practical function of the society doesn't pass the smell test. Homosexuality as the norm? If most people are homosexuals, then how does the society grow? If polygamy is your answer, it still doesn't make sense evolution wise because the bulk of the genes passed on to the next generation will slant mostly towards hetro. In terms of prostitution, brothels, and temples, what's the difference? Why couldn't a married man can get serviced in any of those? And if the brothel and temple are free, why the heck would anyone pay a prostitute?

From your descriptions, the situations feel rigged to me. The character does bad things, but only to bad people. OR they do bad things, because someone put a figurative gun to their head. Or it was an accident, they didn't consciously know what they were doing. 

So if you're exploring moral choices and accountability, the last two things are not choices at all. And in the case of the overwhelming and uncontrollable need to rape or torture, that could be classified as a mental disorder in which the person may not be considered morally responsible. To me it feels like you're putting the characters, and by extension the reader, into unfair circumstances, and then throwing in a justification to say something to the effect, see you would do the same thing under the same circumstance, which isn't true. It feels very much like a false dichotomy.

To me, these characters aren't making real choices. It's like telling someone they have to choose one or the other. Have sex with a dog or a corpse? It isn't an honest or fair question. IMHO if you want to explore the malleable nature of morality find better situations and ask the questions fairly.

Since cannibalism is part of what's being discussed, I asked this, what makes cannibalism so bad, aside from the ick-factor? We know it's practised by people all around the world, but does that make these people all monsters? Does it stop them from loving their family, from helping their neighbors, or from being human?

What's a real monster, someone who eats human flesh, someone who boffs a corpse from time to time, or someone who treats a 5 year old autistic kid like garbage?

Honestly, of all things mentioned in this thread, that story and situation was the most thought provoking, honest, and tragic.


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## Nihilium 7th (Jul 10, 2015)

I've read an re-read through the thread, thinking about the critiques and advice; sifting through the emotions and I've come to a conclusion. 

First let me say that to anyone who felt that I was attacking them in any way rest assured that I wasn't trying to. Second; thanks for the responses, negative critique is better than no critique. Third; after reading through my posts I can see why many of the things portrayed are seen as unnecessarily vile and that is partially my fault, should have done a better job of displaying the scenes.

I have taken some of the advice given here and plan to implement them into the story. Many of the post here really stuck, Penpilots recent one being an example. In a sense I guess I got to see a test run of how certain things in the novel would be recieved if not done carefully and correctly. Thanks to all who participated.


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## Miskatonic (Jul 11, 2015)

Shock value often masks crappy writing or in the case of movies, directing ability or acting. 

Implying things can be just as horrific as spending time giving all the gory details.

It reminds me of an old saying that I believe pertained to Hitchcock's films. It isn't the gunshot that matters, it's everything that happens leading up to the gunshot that matters. These days the gunshot is the only thing people focus on and more often than not it takes away from the story. 

You can see the build up to the gunshot concept in a lot of short stories from the Horror genre. The climax can be the last paragraph or sentence of the story and is the payoff after all the buildup. If you can write well it's an affective, tried and true method.


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## valiant12 (Jul 11, 2015)

> What's a real monster, someone who eats human flesh, someone who boffs a corpse from time to time, or someone who treats a 5 year old autistic kid like garbage?


Cannibalism and treating someone like shit for a condition they have is very similar, you treat another human being as an animal- human treat animals as inferior and humans eat animals.


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## Devor (Jul 11, 2015)

I've just read through all of Nihilium's posts.  I haven't read any of the replies except for snippets on the Activity Stream.

A few things.

 - ASOIAF is nowhere near that kind of dark and is not an appropriate reference.

 - I don't think pairing back the graphic scenes will make enough of a difference.  Just hearing about the acts themselves, and the idea that they're supposed to be likable, is enough to feel revolting to many people.

 - 15% of the novel being these graphic scenes is a HUGE amount.

 - I think it's naive to think pedophilia would be still be considered a deviancy in a society such as this one when it was so common in history.

 - You're trying to tackle_ a__ lot_ of this content with one story. If I was going to go as dark as necrophilia, just for instance, I can tell you:  There would be ONE scene, and I would structure the character's arc and story around it. What you're doing is going heavily into overload.

 - I don't know what your experiences are that lead you to write this, Nihilium. If you're writing this for catharsis, then maybe that's what you should do, get it out of your system, and start with a clearer head when you write for an audience.


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## ascanius (Jul 14, 2015)

Nihilium 7th said:


> I've read an re-read through the thread, thinking about the critiques and advice; sifting through the emotions and I've come to a conclusion.
> 
> First let me say that to anyone who felt that I was attacking them in any way rest assured that I wasn't trying to. Second; thanks for the responses, negative critique is better than no critique. Third; after reading through my posts I can see why many of the things portrayed are seen as unnecessarily vile and that is partially my fault, should have done a better job of displaying the scenes.
> 
> I have taken some of the advice given here and plan to implement them into the story. Many of the post here really stuck, Penpilots recent one being an example. In a sense I guess I got to see a test run of how certain things in the novel would be recieved if not done carefully and correctly. Thanks to all who participated.



I get that we havn't read the book and you might be a great writer and think you can make this work but........  Do a google search of 120 days of sodom, do you think a book like that would be enjoyable to read while relaxing even if it was written by your favorite author, even if it explored a deep theme or apect of humanity?  From what I have read in this thread your right on the line.    It's too much, and all those themes you want to explore can by explored without making the reader want to strangle you in disgust.

I'm not saying don't write about those things but I think you need to come at it from a different angle.


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## SeverinR (Jul 15, 2015)

I think Game of Thrones is a mixture of dark and light and every hue in between. You have the elite royalty in the light, their perversions happen the dark slimy underground and you have the dirty scratching to survive moments in the story too.

I agree, the darkness should fit the story, not just something to spice it up, just to be adding something. If it doesn't mix well in the story, it doesn't help and might detract from the story.


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