# Observations on Choosing an Editor



## BWFoster78

In another thread, it was suggested that I document my journey in choosing an editor for the edification of forum members.  This thread is really going to be more about sharing an experience rather than seeking advice, but always feel free to comment on what I could have done better.  I'll try to remember it for next time 

This morning, I posted on Elance a solicitation for an editor. I modified the query from the other post based on some of the comments that I received, but, overall, the general tone and content didn't change.

A few hours later, I had 22 proposals.

The hard part now is choosing among them.  Some observations:

1. My budget for a 125k work is between $600 and $800.  Of the 22 proposals thus far, 18 generally fell within that range.

2. No matter how much you try to tell people exactly what you want, including specifying that you expect a sample edit of the chapter you attached, a small percentage of respondents are not going to comply.  That makes it easy to exclude them.

3. The sample is the main thing I use in determining who to go with.

4. One of these two things is true: a) I am worse at accepting praise than criticism OR b) a lot of respondents feel that their best bet to get you to pick them is to blow smoke up your behind.

5. Some of the "editors" are easy to rule out.  One guy wanted to charge me the full $800.  His "sample edit" had only one comment, and that one was dubious at best.

6. The hardest part of the whole deal is figuring out: a) this particular thing the editor is commenting on is okay and the editor just doesn't get it OR b) I screwed this up big time, and I'm just not seeing it.

7. 6 is mitigated somewhat by having 22 people responding.  If only one of the edits mentions something, I can be more assured that it is the editor's problem.

8. At this point, I have 5 people still in the running, and I expect more responses through the day/night.  It's going to be tough to make a decision, but, overall, I think you can absolutely get good editing help for my budget.

9. Regarding 8, I did have a couple of the editors say that they normally charge more, but that they're willing to go with a lower number because my prose was pretty clean.  Not sure if they were just blowing smoke, though 

EDIT 10. (Forgot this one) Criticism seems to fall into one of three categories. a) The editor is smoking crack. b) I was smoking crack. c) Someone was smoking crack, but I'm not sure who.

End of first installment.  Tune in later/tomorrow for more.

Thanks.

Brian


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## psychotick

Hi,

Can I just add one more selection criteria. After you've got all the technical skills worked out, engage in some chit chat. It doesn't have to be a lot. But you want to get a basic feel for the editor. Editing for me is a conversation. Yeah there are things that are obvious mistakes and have to go. But a lot of it is about style and you need someone you think can understand your style and where you're coming from. Who if necessary can discuss the issues with you.

Cheers, Greg.


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## BWFoster78

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> Can I just add one more selection criteria. After you've got all the technical skills worked out, engage in some chit chat. It doesn't have to be a lot. But you want to get a basic feel for the editor. Editing for me is a conversation. Yeah there are things that are obvious mistakes and have to go. But a lot of it is about style and you need someone you think can understand your style and where you're coming from. Who if necessary can discuss the issues with you.
> 
> Cheers, Greg.



Good point.

One editor that I'm considering threw the sink at me as far as potential changes, including some I deliberately chose to do differently.  She made it clear, however, that I could tell her chapter by chapter what things that I prefered she leave alone.

So on one hand, I think it might be very annoying at times to have her point out something that is clearly within my style.  On the other hand, maybe the security of having her be that thorough is a good thing.

Tough, tough decisions ahead of me.

And I thought which rookie to take at 1.3 in my fantasy football dynasty draft was tough!

Thanks.

Brian

EDIT: I took your advice to heart and sent a message to each of the editors who are still in serious contention.  Narrowed it down to 3 of the 24 submissions thus far.  Ended up deciding against the lady I talked about above.


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## MineOwnKing

You're missing a zero from your editing budget.


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## BWFoster78

MineOwnKing said:


> You're missing a zero from your editing budget.



I'm up to 27 proposals.  The lady I think I'm going to choose has been editing for 25 years - most freelance but got her start working for a publisher.


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## psychotick

Hi MOK,

$600 to $800 is cheap but ten times that? That would be excessive. Quotes for my books have ranged usually between 2 and 3k though some have been cheaper.

Cheers, Greg.


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## skip.knox

There should be a button for thanking the whole thread. 

I'm at the stage of choosing an editor myself. Both the procedure and the numbers here have been illuminating. I hereby resolve to do the same as I go through the torture ... er, process.


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## Devor

BWFoster78 said:


> 9. Regarding 8, I did have a couple of the editors say that they normally charge more, but that they're willing to go with a lower number because my prose was pretty clean.  Not sure if they were just blowing smoke, though



I don't think they're blowing smoke.  You've already been through an editor, so it should be reasonably clean.  And editing submissions can be pretty bad.  There was an episode of Writing Excuses where the other authors were kind of chuckling about how bad the prose is in even Sanderson's first drafts.  Just think about the kind of stuff they've got to see.


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## BWFoster78

Devor said:


> I don't think they're blowing smoke.  You've already been through an editor, so it should be reasonably clean.  And editing submissions can be pretty bad.  There was an episode of Writing Excuses where the other authors were kind of chuckling about how bad the prose is in even Sanderson's first drafts.  Just think about the kind of stuff they've got to see.



I think think a little of both is probably true.

Some editors on Elance absolutely will try to praise an author in order to try to get the job.  I think, though, that these are relatively few and easily spotted by the lack of substance in their proposal.

On the other hand, I think that the sheer weight of the number of compliments has made me feel I'm on the right track.  At this point, I don't feel like I'm going to be doing a complete rewrite.  More just spit and polish, though I'm sure some chapters will need more intensive work.

Thanks for the comment.

Brian


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## BWFoster78

A couple of editing questions:

1. Is there any moral, ethical, or legal consideration regarding using advice from sample edits when you don't end up choosing that editor?  Free to use or should you try to avoid it?

2. I'm up to 31 responses.  Should I message all 30 to let them know I didn't choose them or just award the job to the person I want?

Thanks.

Brian


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## T.Allen.Smith

BWFoster78 said:


> I think think a little of both is probably true.


Should be:


> I think a little of both....


That'll be $5, please.


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## Devor

Don't pay it!  He's trying to rip you off!  That wasn't worth more than 20Â¢.


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## BWFoster78

Either of you have comments on post 10?  Hate the last post on a page as it sometimes gets missed, and I really need some insight.

Thanks.

Brian


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## Philip Overby

I don't think it's necessary to tell all the other people you chose someone else. From what I understand, Elance doesn't expect you to do that. However, I don't know the etiquette. I've submitted to jobs on their before and never got any response.


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## Devor

BWFoster78 said:


> Either of you have comments on post 10?  Hate the last post on a page as it sometimes gets missed, and I really need some insight.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Brian



I saw it but wasn't confident enough in an answer.

1.  I think there wouldn't be an issue unless maybe they wrote whole sentences that you wanted to lift.

2. I don't know the expectations there.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Well, if it were me, I'd consider any editing given in a bid as free advice. I wouldn't hesitate to use it if it was good for the story.

Secondly, if possible, and not too difficult, I would contact the people not hired for the job. I'd do this for three reasons:

1) It's the professional thing to do. You do want to be viewed as a professional.

2) You may wind up using them sometime in the future on a different project. Therefore, you'd want them to submit bids again in the future, & not just think, "Oh, I remember him. He never a responds, so why bother."

3) If an editor knew they weren't going to get a job they wanted, it may change their bid. Not saying that's a determining factor, but if it was between candidates where all else was equal and one I wasn't going to hire reduced the bid by $100, it might change your mind. 
Give them that opportunity. Even if you're dead set on hiring the first choice, it's a good business practice.

Hope that helps.


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## Russ

I have never worked with elance, but I agree that you should let people know that their service was not the one selected.

Considering the large number of responses in future you might wish to consider a statement that "Only those considered for the project will receive a response to their bid."  to save yourself the work.

I don't see any legal problem is using the suggestions they made to you in their bids.


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## BWFoster78

Cool.  Thanks for all the answers.

EDIT: I responded to 29 of the 31 editors.  The other two are still in contention.  I'm pretty confident that I'm going to choose a particular one of them, but the other didn't give me a sample.  To this point, I've been disregarding those that didn't give samples, but I liked what she said in the proposal and gave her a chance.  I should be able to make my final decision later today.

I think I'm going to make edits based on all the comments.

I won't get back around to that for a couple of weeks, though, so, if anyone thinks that's a horrendous idea, please speak up.


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## psychotick

Hi,

I'd contact them simply as a matter of common courtesy. Speaking as an author who has gone the agent route, one of the worst things ever is simply not getting responces from prospective agents and then thinking to yourself day after day - is this a no or are they just slow? It doesn't have to be much - just a form email. But I would hate to leave others hanging as I have been left before.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Philip Overby

I do agree it is good to say something, but I have noticed on Elance not everyone does this. Maybe I submitted to some people that just had too high of a volume.


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## BWFoster78

Back to the original purpose of this thread (did I hijack my own thread? can one hijack their own thread?):

I've narrowed it down to three candidates.  I don't think that I can go wrong with any of them, but I want to make the right choice.  Hopefully, typing out my thoughts below will help with that.  Note: last night I sent each of them the question - how will your comments make my book more of a page turner and help make more of an emotional connection between the reader and my characters?  Only one has responded thus far.

Editor A -

25 years experience editing fiction, including actually being employed by someone in that capacity.  She made fewer comments than most of the editors, but all were spot on and changes that would make the scene stronger.  She said stuff like "this (paragraph) is just a little boring" and "I can always tell when a new writer thinks description will add to a sentence."  Basically, I found all her comments to be extremely relevant and most addressed issues that no other editors did.  She's also been doing this a long time.  She's going to tell me what works, probably in lieu of telling me what I want her to tell me.

Editor B -

She has a degree in copy editing but a lot less actual experience; she also has experience judging literary contests, which I thought might add something to her take on things.  Seems more eager to please, and her sample edit was more the kitchen sink approach; she made a lot of nitpicky comments, so a lot more thorough but maybe not as impactful.  One thing I liked about her is that she really seemed to dig my story.

Editor C -

15 years of experience editing, much of that with Wizards of the Coast. I have to be honest; that geeks me out a little.  He's worked with RA Salvatore.  His comments are less kitchen sink than B and less impactful than A.  Good middle ground?  Besides the cool work experience, he made a character comment that shows he's really concerned about how I portray that character while being patient enough to see how it plays out before considering it a problem.

To be honest, right now I'm heavily leaning toward A.  Again, though, I think all have the knowledge and experience necessary to help me become a better writing and help make my book better.  I do think that A will be slightly harder (?) to work with than B and C, but maybe that's a good thing?


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## T.Allen.Smith

BWFoster78 said:


> ...to help me become a better writing and help make my book better.


"Writer" not "writing".... That'll only cost ya $2.

Seriously though, if it were me, I'd be leaning the same way as you.

A
C
B

A seems like they're gonna give you all they have. C sounds good too, but there are some unknowns there, regardless of experience with WotC. 

I wouldn't even be considering B, given what you've said here.


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## BWFoster78

T.Allen.Smith said:


> "Writer" not "writing".... That'll only cost ya $2.
> 
> Seriously though, if it were me, I'd be leaning the same way as you.
> 
> A
> C
> B
> 
> A seems like they're gonna give you all they have. C sounds good too, but there are some unknowns there, regardless of experience with WotC.
> 
> I wouldn't even be considering B, given what you've said here.



T.Allen,

Regarding B, I probably didn't articulate my thoughts well enough.

The real advantage is that she'll be willing to put in more time for the same money.  Since she has the book-learnin' down, will that extra time compensate for the lack of experience relative to the other editors?

I don't know, and I'm leaning toward A as I said.  I do think that she's at least worthy of consideration, though.

She's the first person to respond to my questions, too, and I thought her response showed a good level of knowledge.  

C is out, btw.  His response to the question didn't meet my needs.


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## Svrtnsse

For what it's worth. Your listing gives me the impression you may have already made up your mind about A, you're just not quite ready to admit it to yourself yet. 


...and by the sound of it, that's what I'd go for as well.


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## BWFoster78

Svrtnsse said:


> For what it's worth. Your listing gives me the impression you may have already made up your mind about A, you're just not quite ready to admit it to yourself yet.
> 
> 
> ...and by the sound of it, that's what I'd go for as well.



Svrtnsse,

I've pretty much made up my mind, but I would like to hear her response to the question.  If she is unwilling/unable to focus on the goals I want to achieve, I may be better off going with B.  Assuming her answer doesn't totally jinx the thing, I'll go with her.


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## Svrtnsse

Roger that. Best of luck regardless.


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## Devor

"A" seems like the clear choice for you right now.  At this point, having already been through an editor, I think you need to focus on what's important.

It might be great that B wants to do more work.  But you need to figure something out:  Are you doing this to learn how to write or to produce the better novel?  Because more is only better if you still need to learn.  If you want the better book, then go with the editor who will focus on the important things, and _trust yourself_ for the rest.


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## BWFoster78

Devor said:


> "A" seems like the clear choice for you right now.  At this point, having already been through an editor, I think you need to focus on what's important.
> 
> It might be great that B wants to do more work.  But you need to figure something out:  Are you doing this to learn how to write or to produce the better novel?  Because more is only better if you still need to learn.  If you want the better book, then go with the editor who will focus on the important things, and _trust yourself_ for the rest.



Devor,

At this point in my writing "career," I'm very much still focused on learning over the quality of the novel.  There is so much to learn, however, that I've really focused on the two areas I've mentioned.  I value being taught how to better my writing in those areas over improving the book.

I still think A can do that better than B but only if she's willing.

Thanks.

Brian


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## BWFoster78

Alright, done.

I selected Editor A, as those of you waiting with baited breath surely anticipated.

Man, I really have no idea if I did the right thing.  Truthfully, if I had $2400 to spend, I'm not sure I wouldn't just hire three different $800 editors...


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## T.Allen.Smith

BWFoster78 said:


> ...as those of you waiting with baited breath surely anticipated.


"Bated breath".... That's a total of $9 now.    

Annoying yet? Probably, but it strikes me as funny in an editing thread. I'm sick like that.  

I'll accept a free copy in trade. When it's ready. You'll get a review.


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## Devor

BWFoster78 said:


> Man, I really have no idea if I did the right thing.  Truthfully, if I had $2400 to spend, I'm not sure I wouldn't just hire three different $800 editors...



If you had $2,400 to spend, you could do better than that.  I'll trust your judgement that you need this second editor, but with $1,600 to spend, I would be looking at setting up a sales page (with banner art, author photo, etc), hiring a publicist, and sending out hard copies.

I think you'll learn quite a bit by moving on to your next novel.


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## MineOwnKing

Yeah,

My last one was up there in price. But, that included a full developmental edit, plus a proofread by another editor.

Add $800.00 for cover art and $300 for conversion. 

About $800 for marketing.

$7,000.00 for 114,000 words.


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## BWFoster78

T.Allen.Smith said:


> "Bated breath".... That's a total of $9 now.
> 
> Annoying yet? Probably, but it strikes me as funny in an editing thread. I'm sick like that.
> 
> I'll accept a free copy in trade. When it's ready. You'll get a review.



Good deal.  I accept!

Given the editing process so far, I may even be able to finish ahead of schedule, maybe as early as mid August.


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## BWFoster78

Devor said:


> If you had $2,400 to spend, you could do better than that.  I'll trust your judgement that you need this second editor, but with $1,600 to spend, I would be looking at setting up a sales page (with banner art, author photo, etc), hiring a publicist, and sending out hard copies.
> 
> I think you'll learn quite a bit by moving on to your next novel.



I hope so.  I'm planning on taking a break from epic fantasy and writing a superhero novel next.


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## BWFoster78

MineOwnKing said:


> Yeah,
> 
> My last one was up there in price. But, that included a full developmental edit, plus a proofread by another editor.
> 
> Add $800.00 for cover art and $300 for conversion.
> 
> About $800 for marketing.
> 
> $7,000.00 for 114,000 words.



Ouch!

What's your ROI for that?


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## MineOwnKing

BWFoster78 said:


> Ouch!
> 
> What's your ROI for that?



Cash is king. 

Don't sweat the petty things, pet the sweaty things.


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## BWFoster78

More Observations about Choosing an Editor:

I've been in a lot of internet discussions about editors.  There's a camp that says, "You absolutely should not self publish without procuring an editor."  I, obviously, side with that camp.

Within that camp, though, there seems to be an opinion that, not only do you have to procure an editor, you need a really expensive editor.

I think that there exist editors that are really, really good and have a ton of experience taking manuscripts and turning them into bestsellers.  I have no knowledge of these people, but my guess is that they are quite expensive and are employed by the big publishers.

My guess is that those saying you need to pay for quality editors are themselves only able to afford the midlist editors.

So does a midlist editor provide 3 times the value of someone who you find on Elance for $800?  Maybe.  I really have no way of knowing.  I'm highly skeptical, though.

What I do believe is that, whether you go midlist or bargain basement, you need to do everything you can to make sure the editor is going to fit your needs.  I also think that the bargain basement is divided into sections:

1. People who are building their resume - An editor with a degree but no experience may be willing to charge less in order to get that experience.  The right one of these people might be a great value.

2. People who will give you less time - What you're actually paying an editor for is their time.  Maybe for less money, you get a lot of quality for the amount of time they put in, but less time spent.  This can still be a good value to you.  As long as they focus on the most important things, your book and writing will still be greatly improved.

3 People who have no idea what they're doing - Pay a lot of attention to the sample edit.  It's your biggest tool in determining value.  If the comments don't ring true, move on to the next editor regardless of the amount.


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## Philip Overby

Personally, I would look at some of these posts Micheal J. Sullivan has done. They are stickied somewhere in this forum section. I think he talks about how much he paid for an editor and cover art. If you're going to follow someone down the self-publishing path, he's one to follow.

Edit: Well, I thought they were there. But he has talked about this before and has posted lots of info about his path as a hybrid writer across the internet and here on the forums.


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## PaulineMRoss

BWFoster78 said:


> I've been in a lot of internet discussions about editors.  There's a camp that says, "You absolutely should not self publish without procuring an editor."  I, obviously, side with that camp.



I'm not as convinced about the value of a structural editor as you are, Brian. I tend to see them as a throwback to the grand old days before self-publishing existed in any meaningful form, and trade publishers were the only legitimate way to go. Then the editor was a necessary conduit between the writer, working (possibly) alone in his drafty garret to produce his Art, and the publisher, producing a marketable product. The editor, basically, knocked the writer's work into marketable shape, and may have been the only way for the writer to improve his craft.

Nowadays, with so much information available online, including forums like this, online critique groups, and all the market analysis anyone can eat, much of the craft can be learned before the manuscript is even submitted. Not that a good editor won't improve the work, but that there's less need for editing (in most cases). 

The other big, big problem is that, unless you're very rich or lucky, you only get one editor. That's one individual telling you how to change your book. I am far, far happier with several beta readers, frankly, who do the same job but give me a variety of opinions to think about.


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## Steerpike

PaulineMRoss said:


> I'm not as convinced about the value of a structural editor as you are, Brian. I tend to see them as a throwback to the grand old days before self-publishing existed in any meaningful form, and trade publishers were the only legitimate way to go. Then the editor was a necessary conduit between the writer, working (possibly) alone in his drafty garret to produce his Art, and the publisher, producing a marketable product. The editor, basically, knocked the writer's work into marketable shape, and may have been the only way for the writer to improve his craft.
> 
> Nowadays, with so much information available online, including forums like this, online critique groups, and all the market analysis anyone can eat, much of the craft can be learned before the manuscript is even submitted. Not that a good editor won't improve the work, but that there's less need for editing (in most cases).



I suppose it depends on the writer. If you're good enough at what you're doing not to need an editor to handle those things for you, then you can put the work into marketable shape yourself. If you're not able to do that yourself, you have to be able to recognize it and recognize that you need the help of someone who _can_​ do it.


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## BWFoster78

Pauline,

I can only go from my experience, but, if I had to choose between the two, I would pick the structural over the copy.

Truthfully, the things that a copy editor provides are the things that I think require the least expertise.  If you've worked for a long time trying to hone your craft (as you definitely have!), you're probably pretty good at effectively communicating what is happening in your book (and you are!).

I firmly believe that the hardest thing for a writer is to see the story through the eyes of the reader.  Therefore, I think that we don't necessarily convey a) what we think we're conveying or b) what we need to be conveying.

I can only go by my experience, but my editor helped me see what I was actually writing and what I needed to be writing.

I had several beta readers for my book, including several aspiring authors.  Ankari's suggestions, in particular, added a tremendous amount to my book.

But, at the end of the day, the draft after picking up all those comments still absolutely sucked.  Completely.  No question.  I look back on it today and am still trying to figure out how I or my beta readers didn't see that.

Maybe your beta readers are different than mine, but most of them simply aren't trained to understand what is needed to make a novel truly work.

Thanks.

Brian


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## BWFoster78

Steerpike said:


> I suppose it depends on the writer. If you're good enough at what you're doing not to need an editor to handle those things for you, then you can put the work into marketable shape yourself. If you're not able to do that yourself, you have to be able to recognize it and recognize that you need the help of someone who _can_​ do it.



I don't necessarily disagree with this.  Since I'm moving forward on the learning curve, I'll obviously learn less from subsequent editors as I did from my first ones. Extrapolating, I'd have to think that one day I'll know enough to be able to produce marketable material without help.

I think, however, that I'll still probably end up employing editors at that point for the following reasons:

1. It seems like WoT went off the rails in the middle.  How much better would it have been if there would have been a strong editor saying, "Dude, cut that!"  As soon as I get to the point where I think I know everything, I think my quality will start going the opposite direction.

2. If I can produce marketable material on my own, then the market is probably responding to my efforts.  It will probably be worth it on a time vs money basis to have someone else do the editing.


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## Russ

PaulineMRoss said:


> I'm not as convinced about the value of a structural editor as you are, Brian. I tend to see them as a throwback to the grand old days before self-publishing existed in any meaningful form, and trade publishers were the only legitimate way to go. Then the editor was a necessary conduit between the writer, working (possibly) alone in his drafty garret to produce his Art, and the publisher, producing a marketable product. The editor, basically, knocked the writer's work into marketable shape, and may have been the only way for the writer to improve his craft.
> 
> Nowadays, with so much information available online, including forums like this, online critique groups, and all the market analysis anyone can eat, much of the craft can be learned before the manuscript is even submitted. Not that a good editor won't improve the work, but that there's less need for editing (in most cases).
> 
> The other big, big problem is that, unless you're very rich or lucky, you only get one editor. That's one individual telling you how to change your book. I am far, far happier with several beta readers, frankly, who do the same job but give me a variety of opinions to think about.



Some of the idea of the democratization of all things provided by the internet is a bit of a myth, and I think contributes towards a "race to the bottom" in both the writing field and other fields.

At the end of the day it really depends on your ambition and your goals.  If you have limited goals and ambitions, you can choose to use second rate (or worse) resources.

On the self pub side the field is getting crowded and standing out is harder.  On both sides the widespread availability of the word processor has created a deluge of manuscripts that can get sent out with a couple of clicks.  The signal to noise ratio is worse than ever.

You can see a similar trend in photography now.  With the advent of digital cameras people think they can make a buck in the field and the market is swamped with, frankly. really poor work.

I have written some stuff that was beta grouped and critiqued and tuned up pretty well that was published by traditional publishers and I was amazed just how much better my work was after it was properly edited.  I was stunned at the improvement that was made.

So it really depends on how seriously you take your work.

Let me finish with an analogy from the field of law.  If you have a small claims court case, it is just fine to get a few of your buds to tell you what they think about the evidence, read some articles on the internet and read the rules of court and have a crack at it.

If you have a case that might be significant, say millions of dollars, or even maybe $50,000, do you really think you should run it by a few of your buds, read the rules of court, cruise the internet and go argue it?  Really?

If your publication and its quality is important to you, you should do everything within your means to make your work as great as it can be.  And maybe even a bit more. ;-)


I should also point out that the suggestion that the only way writers learned their craft was from editors "back in the day" is a myth.  Many of the great writers I know, and have read about, got help from other writers and worked their butt off to get their work ready to be submitted to a publisher including hiring freelance editors.  Just look at, for instance, Hemmingway, who had several writing instructors and mentors. The internet has made it easier to find some like minded folks, but the process has not changed that much.


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## PaulineMRoss

Russ said:


> I have written some stuff that was beta grouped and critiqued and tuned up pretty well that was published by traditional publishers and I was amazed just how much better my work was after it was properly edited.  I was stunned at the improvement that was made.
> 
> So it really depends on how seriously you take your work.



I wouldn't argue with you on one point: a good editor can work wonders, there's no doubt about it. And if you're lucky enough to find one who understands your genre and respects your writing and is experienced and is concerned with improving the writing and not merely making it more marketable, then all power to you. That's the perfect scenario.

Most people don't have that option. Most editors are not quite that perfect. There are horror stories about editors who want to change the fundamentals of a work, like the gender or age or race of the protagonist, or lop off 30% of it. They're not all making stunning improvements. 

Self-pubbers also have the financial aspect to consider, because a decent editor costs an arm and a leg. Do you mortgage the house to pay for an editor who might not actually be that perfect? And who is only one opinion anyway? For most self-pubbers, beta readers and critique groups will fulfil most of the functions of an editor, at a much lower cost and with the advantage of multiple opinions.

But I do take issue with the idea that using an editor correlates with being serious about your work. You can be deadly serious about it, and still not want to put yourself in debt to pay for an editor. Self-pubbing means publishing your own work *as a business* and that means making hard-nosed financial decisions. Paying (or not paying) for an editor is just one of them, and deciding the cost is prohibitive doesn't make an author any less serious about their work.


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## Devor

PaulineMRoss said:


> The other big, big problem is that, unless you're very rich or lucky, you only get one editor. That's one individual telling you how to change your book. I am far, far happier with several beta readers, frankly, who do the same job but give me a variety of opinions to think about.



I just want to respond to this one statement.

If I had beta readers that I thought were doing "the same job" as an editor, I would ask them to stop.  And, I don't mean that I wouldn't trust the work they were doing - for the moment that's a different question.  But I would just never be okay with somebody putting in $800-2,000 dollars worth of work for me without finding some way to pay them.


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## Russ

We are actually getting close to agreeing!



> And if you're lucky enough to find one who understands your genre and respects your writing and is experienced and is concerned with improving the writing and not merely making it more marketable, then all power to you. That's the perfect scenario.



I honestly don't think luck has that much to do with it.  I have been researching editors for some time and have narrowed it down to two I want to work with.  I have spoken to authors they have worked with, and looked at the success their work has had. Too many people blame luck for bad choices.  An editor is like any professional service, with some work you can do a pretty good job of screening them.




> Self-pubbers also have the financial aspect to consider, because a decent editor costs an arm and a leg. Do you mortgage the house to pay for an editor who might not actually be that perfect? And who is only one opinion anyway? For most self-pubbers, beta readers and critique groups will fulfil most of the functions of an editor, at a much lower cost and with the advantage of multiple opinions.
> 
> But I do take issue with the idea that using an editor correlates with being serious about your work. You can be deadly serious about it, and still not want to put yourself in debt to pay for an editor. Self-pubbing means publishing your own work *as a business* and that means making hard-nosed financial decisions. Paying (or not paying) for an editor is just one of them, and deciding the cost is prohibitive doesn't make an author any less serious about their work.



Everybody has the financial aspect to consider, the hopeful traditional author or the self pub.  

But I don't suggest that you go into unreasonable debt for this, or any other business venture.  But let me quote myself:



> If your publication and its quality is important to you, you should do everything *within your means* to make your work as great as it can be. And maybe even a bit more. ;-)



(bold added).

I am saying that editing is not an area where I think one should cheap out.  There are other promotional or improvement areas that can use a hack and slash or a complete ignore (trailer videos for instance have virtually no value).  But editing for any author ads a great deal of value.  What I suggest is that people get the best editing *that they can afford*, and if they really want to go for it in writing, perhaps even stretch a little to get it. 

When you are making business decisions on hiring an editor I am suggesting it is good value for money.  No mortgage required.

But it does come down to how serious you are about writing and the investment you want to make.  If you have $3000 in your discretionary budget, do you throw $2000 to upgrade your editor and take a cheaper vacation?  Or do you go "all in" and stay home?  These are hard choices for anyone, but level of commitment and goals are important to even discussing these issues.

Conversations are held on different levels.  Some people are ultra serious and focused, some are having fun and writing or self pubbing is a hobby, some still arn't sure.  I confess my advice tends to be geared towards the more serious writer.  I don't think less of people who are not driven to make a living in writing, I just think I, and many other people have less to offer them because their needs are so much less.


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## Philip Overby

This topic is interesting to me because I keep seeing the same three things come up that writers pay for:

1. Editing
2. Covers
3. Marketing

In the grand scheme of things, I wonder if editing is even the biggest thing that people should be paying for. Sure, I think it'll help it shine and clean up a lot of things a writer simply can't find, but is it worth paying your biggest amount of your budget on? I guess it depends on how long your work is. Since my work is on the shorter side, I could probably pay an editor 100 dollars or so for quality work (I saw a pro writer offering editing for around that for shorter pieces below the 10,000 word range). I assume BW's work is in the "epic" range, so of course it's going to be more than that. 

So for someone like me that writes shorter stuff, I wonder: is it worth paying for an editor every time? Do people pay editors before they submit short stories to various markets? If they do, I've never heard of that. I just always assumed that if someone submitted something to Daily Science Fiction for example, the editors might suggest some changes but you wouldn't pay for them.

I personally think a big chunk of money might be better served going toward either covers or marketing. You can have the cleanest product on Earth, but marketing is that part of the process that no one ever seems to have one definitive answer about. And covers are that weird tangible that no one can ever figure out. Everyone has little nit-picky things that they like or don't like about covers. But there's a whole art to that as well.

However, I do lean more towards the opinion of paying for an editor if your work is super long. I have a novel I've been working on for about three years altogether off and on that could certainly benefit from that. 

I look at paying for all this stuff like buying a car. If you pay a crapload of money for your car, you expect it to look good, run good, and last for a long time. If you buy a used car, some may be OK if the side is dented, the engine sputters, and they may get three or four years out of it. You have to weigh your options as Pauline is suggesting. Everyone has different priorities when it comes to publishing. I assume if you put 5,000 dollars worth of budget into something, you expect to make that money back (or at least hope to). If you don't have that option, finding alternative ways to get the same thing you want might be just as good. But it's a huge risk.

Going back to the car analogy, you could take your car to a shop and have them work on the engine and break your bank (but make sure you get excellent quality) or you could take your car to your mechanic friend, who may or may not have the same resources, and take the risk of it not being as well done.

Publishing is risky. Every element of it is. And sometimes the way we reduce risk is by paying money. Insurance, so to speak. You don't want someone not buying your book for any particular reason. So I believe if BW wants to spend a lot of money on editing to give himself peace of mind, that makes sense.


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## PaulineMRoss

Philip Overby said:


> Publishing is risky. Every element of it is. And sometimes the way we reduce risk is by paying money. Insurance, so to speak. You don't want someone not buying your book for any particular reason. So I believe if BW wants to spend a lot of money on editing to give himself peace of mind, that makes sense.



That's a good summary of it. And the principle is the same, whether it's an author self-publishing and making the decisions for herself, or whether it's a publisher. Quite a few small publishers these days don't bother with editing, they just publish whatever's handed in to them (so I've heard). Or they might go for cheaper cover art. They decide what to spend their money on, just like self-pubbers do.

When I was working up to self-pubbing my first book, I knew I had to present it professionally. I also knew that the important factor was how it looks on Amazon. I won't be selling in bookstores, so I needed to focus on covers that look good in thumbnail, a good blurb, and a super-polished opening that would draw readers through the Look inside feature. Those were critical.

Clearly, good cover art was essential, so I paid good money for that. I knew I needed help with tidying up my punctuation, so I paid for proofreading. I got loads of advice on the blurb and the opening chapters from my critique group and beta readers. All of those help directly to sell the books. 

But structural editing? Not so much. Readers don't mind if the pacing is a little lumpy or if the middle isn't as polished as it could be. Once they get caught up in the story, minor deficiencies don't matter much. So I made the decision that structural editing was *less* essential. I got enough feedback in other ways to overcome the worst problems (I hope!), but I didn't feel I could justify the cost of professional editing. Not yet, anyway. Maybe when I've made a bit more money from the royalties I'll consider it.

That was my decision, and I'm comfortable with it. Brian's made a different decision, and he's comfortable with that. Which is cool. I like that he keeps us all in the loop about his progress so we can think about these things and learn from his experience.Sharing information and ideas is what it's all about.


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## BWFoster78

> But structural editing? Not so much. Readers don't mind if the pacing is a little lumpy or if the middle isn't as polished as it could be. Once they get caught up in the story, minor deficiencies don't matter much.



If I thought that this was all a structural editor does, I wouldn't value them very much either.

Here's my take on structural editing:

When I'm on Amazon looking for a book to read, the first thing I look at is whether the author can engage me.  If I don't make it past your first few paragraphs, I'm off to the next book. In these days of self publishing, this trait is found a lot less often than I would like.

I consider this trait to be based on writing technique.

If the writing is engaging, I buy it and read it.

When I get to the end, I ask myself, "Did the book connect with me?" That trait is based on the author's storytelling ability.

If the book turned out not to even be a page turner, I'm highly unlikely to buy anything else from that author.
If the book is a page turner but didn't connect with me, I may or may not buy from that author again.
If the book is a page turner and did connect with me, I immediately go out and buy something else from that author, maybe everything else that author has for sale.

In my mind, the structural editor is the person who helps you learn how to better connect to your reader.


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## Philip Overby

One thing Pauline mentioned above was making sure your beginning is as awesome as possible. That's something she focused on in addition to having a good cover. Since a great beginning matters a lot to you as well, why not share your beginning with some places (critique partners, readers, the Showcase, whatever) so that you can at least get more than one opinion on what works and what doesn't? I recall you doing a thing on your blog before where you would tell a person if you would continue reading their work based on a short sample. You could be well served by doing the same thing. If you have say 5-10 people tell you the same things (the beginning was awesome or it didn't hook them, etc.) then it might be helpful for you to compare that with what a professional that you are paying is saying. If the opinions are wildly varied, you may have to lean in whatever direction feels best. But if the comments seem to be the same (either good, bad, or in the middle) then you can apply that. This way you get the best of both worlds in some capacity.


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## BWFoster78

Philip,

I've shared my opening many times, including relatively recently on the Showcase...


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## Philip Overby

Did you feel like you got the answers you wanted or were they all different? I'm just curious because in some ways people who are reading your work as readers are going to have more pure reaction than an editor would.


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## PaulineMRoss

BWFoster78 said:


> If I thought that this was all a structural editor does, I wouldn't value them very much either.
> 
> Here's my take on structural editing:
> 
> When I'm on Amazon looking for a book to read, the first thing I look at is whether the author can engage me.  If I don't make it past your first few paragraphs, I'm off to the next book. In these days of self publishing, this trait is found a lot less often than I would like.
> 
> I consider this trait to be based on writing technique.
> 
> If the writing is engaging, I buy it and read it.
> 
> When I get to the end, I ask myself, "Did the book connect with me?" That trait is based on the author's storytelling ability.
> 
> If the book turned out not to even be a page turner, I'm highly unlikely to buy anything else from that author.
> If the book is a page turner but didn't connect with me, I may or may not buy from that author again.
> If the book is a page turner and did connect with me, I immediately go out and buy something else from that author, maybe everything else that author has for sale.
> 
> In my mind, the structural editor is the person who helps you learn how to better connect to your reader.



That's an interesting take on it, partly because it's quite hard to pin down. What makes a book connect with any particular reader? What makes it a page turner - again, for a particular reader? What makes a book engaging? There are no universal answers to those questions. You could say: ramp up the romance, and it will be more engaging for the young, female portion of your readership (but less engaging for the blokes, maybe). You could say: more fight scenes will make it more of a page turner, but again, you will lose part of your readership who enjoys a slower pace.

I would say: write the book that you would want to read yourself. If *you* find it engaging and a page-turner, then you can guarantee other people will. They're your audience. A structural editor may help you connect with those readers by making sure your book is consistent, but I wouldn't expect her to work on your writing technique. That's something that comes with time and experience.

I looked up structural editing definitions, and this seems to be a good summary:



> In fiction, the main areas that a structural editor will address are:
> 
> Plot: Does the plot make sense? Is it believable? Is it satisfying or does it leave the reader frustrated?
> Themes: Are the themes effectively handled? Are there so many that the book lacks focus? Do they interfere with the plot or complement it?
> Characterisation: Are your characters well developed and believable? Are they cast in a role that fits their personality? Do they sometimes behave out of character?
> Point of view/voice: Is the voice consistent or is it sometimes confused? Is the voice authentic? Are you using too many or too few POVs?
> Pace: Does the plot move forward at an appropriate pace? Should you cut that preface? Should the action happen sooner or should the tension build more slowly?
> Dialogue: Do your characters sound real when they speak? Is your dialogue cluttered with adverbs and beats? Do you use clunky dialogue to move the plot forward?
> Flow: Is the narrative interrupted by dead-ends and tangents? Is there so much back story that the main plot is dwarfed? Are there missing plot points that would give the narrative greater integrity?



Essentially, it's whole-book polishing, and improving consistency and flow, cutting out clunky points or moments where the reader might go: wait a minute, what happened to...? The opening is part of that, but it's only a very small part.

A good beta reader can give you a great deal of this, certainly equivalent to an average structural editor. A good critique group is very effective for knocking opening chapters into shape. The best structural editors are in another league, though.


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## TheCatholicCrow

BWFoster78 said:


> a particular one of them, but the other didn't give me a sample.  To this point, I've been disregarding those that didn't give samples, but I liked what she said in the proposal and gave her a chance.  I should be able to make my final decision later today.



Just for future reference .... Elance discourages people from giving "samples" as it is unpaid work. There are always concerns with scams and posts that ask you to do any work in advance are generally to be regarded with caution. Since you would still need to screen everyone out, (from what I've seen on the site) most clients post small jobs (say $10 for 2 chapters) which they might give to three or four people as a prescreening to become eligible towards the larger job. 

Of course, if you found someone that works for you that's great. I just wanted to point out that the people who didn't edit your sample (presumably they sent you examples of previous work or asked you to look at their portfolio?) are actually following the Elance guidelines. So (for future reference) ...it was technically your requirements which violated Elance policies. Sure, some of them might have been lazy but that might not have been the case for everyone. 

Oh and (if you go this route next time) you really don't have to tell everyone individually. Anything the freelancers apply for appears on their list along with other jobs being worked. I can't speak for everyone but I know that I keep a close eye on the ones I've applied to. If someone else gets the job it's not a big deal. You just apply for something else. It's certainly a nice thing to do but I've only seen it happen once.


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## BWFoster78

> Of course, if you found someone that works for you that's great. I just wanted to point out that the people who didn't edit your sample (presumably they sent you examples of previous work or asked you to look at their portfolio?) are actually following the Elance guidelines. So (for future reference) ...it was technically your requirements which violated Elance policies. Sure, some of them might have been lazy but that might not have been the case for everyone.



Catholic Crow,

Some of the editors made comments in their proposal about the types of things they would edit.  My understanding was that approach doesn't break the guidelines?  I considered those bids, though they weren't nearly as easy to evaluate as the samples.



> Elance discourages people from giving "samples" as it is unpaid work. There are always concerns with scams and posts that ask you to do any work in advance are generally to be regarded with caution. Since you would still need to screen everyone out, (from what I've seen on the site) most clients post small jobs (say $10 for 2 chapters) which they might give to three or four people as a prescreening to become eligible towards the larger job.



One of the respondents mentioned this.

I have to say that this feels out of touch with the way freelance editors seem to do business, though.  I've visited a lot of their websites, and I can't remember one that doesn't offer a sample edit.

Anyway, thanks for the comments.

Brian


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## BWFoster78

> What makes a book connect with any particular reader? What makes it a page turner - again, for a particular reader? What makes a book engaging? There are no universal answers to those questions.



Pauline,

I agree with you that no book connects with all readers.  I guarantee that I could find people who would absolutely loathe every book in my personal top 10.

From a "page-turning" aspect, I've put a lot of thought and time into figuring out which techniques will likely result in my readers finding it engaging.  Again, not all readers will find it engaging.  I think the important thing is to have a strategy that will capture at least some of them.  Otherwise, what are you doing?  Depending on luck?

It's thus far been much more difficult for me to come up with strategies for connecting with the reader.  Some things I figured out after my developmental edit:

My ending sucked.
My protagonist didn't have enough agency
The last third of the book turned into a YA romantic drama instead of an epic fantasy

Those were some of the main things, and fixing them helped my book greatly.  Without the editor, I don't think I ever would have seen the flaws.



> write the book that you would want to read yourself. If *you* find it engaging and a page-turner, then you can guarantee other people will.



I've said this in other threads: I loved my fourth draft.  I thought it was good to go and ready to be published.

Looking back, if I would have been hit on the head and lost all memory of having wrote it, I would have hated that draft then as much as I do now.

Writing is translating what's in our heads into words.  Those words have to create in our readers what exists in our heads.  It is almost impossible for us to judge our work because our words remind us of what is already there instead of creating.  Of course I loved my 4th draft character because I was viewing him from everything that I intended to write instead of from what I had actually written.



> A good beta reader can give you a great deal of this, certainly equivalent to an average structural editor.



Maybe you have much better beta readers than me or maybe I happened to find a really good structural editor, but, again just from my personal experience, I didn't find this to be the case.


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## BWFoster78

Philip Overby said:


> Did you feel like you got the answers you wanted or were they all different? I'm just curious because in some ways people who are reading your work as readers are going to have more pure reaction than an editor would.



I think the combination of the two finally pointed me in the right direction as I think I've finally identified exactly what I didn't like about the opening.  Now, I just have to fix it.


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## T.Allen.Smith

BWFoster78 said:


> I have to say that this feels out of touch with the way freelance editors seem to do business, though.  I've visited a lot of their websites, and I can't remember one that doesn't offer a sample edit.


Yes. It is standard practice for editors vying for a job to provide samples of their work. I wouldn't even consider an editor who didn't.  



BWFoster78 said:


> Maybe you have much better beta readers than me or maybe I happened to find a really good structural editor, but, again just from my personal experience, I didn't find this to be the case.


The quality of critique partners I currently have varies widely. Most are members of groups I belong to. Some are diligent, honest, and caring when it comes to giving critiques. However, most are either nit-picking (which I don't mind too much) or they seem afraid to dish out the blunt honesty that I ask for. When evaluating their opinions, I consider all of them valid, as long as I feel they're reading carefully. However, I also weigh their opinions according to their experience levels, which is easily identified by their submissions.   

Beta readers are different, for me. If you're a beta reader it's because I respect your opinion and I'm confident you'll be honest. I'm certain you want to help me succeed & you're willing to work to help me get there. I have handful of beta readers, but I'm always trying to add more. My critique groups (live & online) act as a sort of minor league for my beta group. With beta readers I'm less concerned about technical and grammatical issues & more concerned with the impression made by the story and whether or not it conveyed what I wished to convey. Did they like it? What did they expect to happen? What characters did they like/dislike, and why? Things of that nature. 

Editors are professionals who, for my money, have been employed in that capacity for a decade or more by a respected firm, or are currently employed by a firm I've chosen to hire. They are very different from crit partners & beta readers. Their concern should, unlike the others, by a monetary one, where my success as an author should help their business succeed. They should also know more about current market trends, what has been commercially successful in past efforts (writing execution, not story topic), and many other factors that contribute to success. A good firm, or probably even a good freelancer, should be able to provide multiple types of editing....copy/line, developmental, structural, etc. These are people with experience and education geared toward understanding the fine details, the bones and architecture of storytelling. Though good crit partners & readers can certainly improve your work, I'm doubtful if they could provide the level of expertise a good editor can offer.


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## Chessie

Interesting thread. I've been following it with curiosity. This subject has been one that I've been researching a lot lately because I'm on the fence about hiring a professional editor. I could probably afford one after saving for a couple of months, but the expense would dent our family's finances. Definitely though, I have my work shredded to bits by critique partners, beta readers, and Scribophile (which is awesome). 

The moral question: do I sacrifice my family's income to hire an editor for short fiction that may not sell that well anyway? Or do I polish it to the best of my ability and take the plunge anyway, returning to it with an editor when finances are more stable and after we have moved across the country?

Not to be a negative Nancy about this subject either, but how great are trade manuscripts edited anyway? Two different works that I read this week seem to have broken a lot of writing rules. The first was a short story with a multitude of run on sentences that had me going back and re-reading over stuff. The second was a genre fiction about two best friends that started out with a prologue written in 3rd person, and the rest of the book switching between first person present and past tenses. It drove me bonkers. Don't writing rules say not to do this? If it's so important, why do trade houses let these books hit the shelves? The writing in the second book was rather repetitive as well and it was hard to get into the story.

Just saying...I think a lot more stress is put on Indies than probably needs to be. Sure, by all means do what you can to get your manuscript polished to perfection by whatever means you can before publishing. But in the end, if trade houses are putting out crap...why don't they get slammed for it but Indies do? Makes no sense.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Would you buy another work from that author?   

Probably not. I wouldn't. That's how, eventually, the publisher loses for crappy editing. 

Don't make the mistake of saying, "They got away with it. Why can't I?"  

They haven't gotten away with anything. If it's bad, it'll fail. 

Give yourself whatever advantage you can. 

As far as short fiction goes, I probably wouldn't hire an editor for that. I'm confident in my abilities, and my helpers, enough to handle a short piece. It's the novel, in my opinion, that benefits from professional editing. The larger the work, the more complex. The higher the complexity, the greater the need for experienced, professional aid.   

Just my opinion. YMMV.


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## cupiscent

I haven't been following this thread, but a blog post on choosing editors just came up on my feed, and I thought it might be of use to this conversation or others in this situation: Picking Editors: what kind do we need?. Also contains notes on how to maximise value and what to look for with different types of edits.


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## BWFoster78

Today is the four year anniversary of my beginning work on my novel.

Today, I sent the completed 5th draft to my editor.

I'll keep everyone informed as to the progress, but my plan is to take the next two weeks to work on another project (other than revising Chapter 1 based on the edits already received, anyway.).


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## BWFoster78

Update: I fired my first choice of editor. I'd given her a couple of days extension of the original deadline but stuck firm to needing at least a partial edit by a full week after that deadline.  She grew unresponsive, and, eventually, I had to fire her.  Luckily, one of my other top original choice was available immediately and is giving me chapters as she edits them.

Lesson Learned:

Future contracts will stipulate that the editor provides me with the chapters on an ongoing basis.  Waiting to send me everything at once is for the birds.  I have no idea if she actually did anything or not.  Besides, by sending me a few chapters at a time, I can save the editor effort.  By responding and saying, "Hey, while I respect your opinion, I'm not making these particular kinds of changes," the editor doesn't have to spend time marking those types of changes up any more.

On the Price of Editing:

I've read a lot of opinions since first posting on this subject.  It seems like there are three categories of people on this subject:

Cat A - Professionals and publishers willing to pay top dollar for editing.  Editors used by these people would have charged me somewhere between $4000 and tens of thousands to copy edit my book.

Cat B - Indies who value editors but who can't justify the kind of expense paid by the Cat A'ers.  This category would pay around $1000 or so for a content edit of a book like mine and about half that for a copy edit.

Cat C - Those who just don't see the value in editing at all.

I, obviously, fall into Cat B at the moment, but I don't have enough knowledge or experience at this point to say which of these three categories is the "right" one.  My thinking at the moment is that none of them are "right."  I think it's more of a situational kind of thing - what is right for the author at the moment?  Seems like you could come up with reasonable scenarios that would make any of the three correct.


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## Russ

Sorry your first one did not work out.  Best of luck with the next one.


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## BWFoster78

Russ said:


> Sorry your first one did not work out.  Best of luck with the next one.



I learned something valuable from the experience, so it's all good.


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## Caged Maiden

Sorry to hear it fell through.  You spent a lot of effort on that venture.  I'm glad the second editor is getting things done to your satisfaction though.  

I agree with you about the categories.  I'm in the same one as you.  I see the value in editing, but I've put in a lot of work and think when I send my book off to an editor, it's already 95% where I want it to be.  I'm not sure what I call 5% of editing is worth more than $1000, but I'm not about to not cover my backside either.  I want a pair of eyes in the business to have a look and make certain I've got the goods before I hit Publish.  

Thanks for sharing your journey with us.  Hopefully future self-pubbers here will be able to use this experience as a reference when coming up against tough choices as well.


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## BWFoster78

> I'm not sure what I call 5% of editing is worth more than $1000, but I'm not about to not cover my backside either. I want a pair of eyes in the business to have a look and make certain I've got the goods before I hit Publish.



Exactly!

I'd much rather spend a little extra cash than end up looking like an idiot (or more of an idiot  ).

I could see, however, getting to a point where I felt comfortable enough with my writing that the copy edit wasn't a value add.  On the other hand, maybe, at that point, I'd consider it worth the cost in terms of adding efficiency to my process.

It's hard to imagine a time, however, when I'm willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars per edit, but I look forward to a day when I have the option.


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## Caged Maiden

Yeah, I've spent a ton of time on my WiP and I'm pretty happy with it al.  I love the characters, the story, and I've worked out all the plot stickiness.  However, I see the value in an editor telling me things like, "You could increase this tension by..." or "this section drags because of..."

I think I'm with you on this one. My professional freelance editor was going to cost me a grand and I was willing ot pay it.  I haven't contacted her, because I want the work to shine before it sees her inbox, but i've gotten so stuck with my beginning and ending, trying to make them the best they can be, and I've just one off track.  Bad.

The thing is, none of my crit partners are published or have worked with editors, so they can't answer my specific questions about what's the best way to open, or what specific little things should be tweaked to better connect with readers.  They've done a fine job, no question, but they all want to leave the answers up to me, and I saw an editor as sort of the final say (because they work with so many books and help them get published) on which changes to make and which to not worry about.  A lot of that comes because certain people have given me feedback that directly contrasts with each other.  One person will say they love a character and his mysterious nature and the really get him, and another will say they don't connect because they don't understand his motivation.  I'm just not sure which way to go in cases like those.  My crit partners are awesome, but when a few disagree and I have a few on each side of the debate...I'm just not sure what to do.  This goes for folks in other genres from my work, as well as folks who read this genre.  SOme like it one way, others like it another, and i'm stuck in the middle with pen in hand, just trying to please them all, but failing whichever decision I make.  So...an editor is someone I need to trust to get my work to please MOST people, because I'm clearly not competent (or confident) enough at this point to do it all.

Best wishes.  I sincerely hope this works out for you, and you know, we've not had the best history, often standing on oppsing sides of the writing theory lines, but everything you're saying resonates so fully with me, maybe we ought to give trading another try.  I'm down if you are.  After your edit, if you want another beta to give it a once-over, I'd be more than willing to trade books and see what we think.  I don't believe a writer needs to be similar in execution and tone to give impartial feedback, merely to understand their partner's goals.  Would that be useful to you, if you told me your goals and i gave a read with those foals in mind?  You say you struggle a lot with character and that's sort of one of my really strong skills.  I struggle with pacing and info reveals, because I'm writing a sort of subtle story and I need to know whether it's too much or whether people get it when I foreshadow or hint at stuff, or whether I should just be blatant (which I feel is punching them in the face with the information).

Anyways, I'm always here, and I am 100% behind you, no matter what you do, but if I can be helpful, I'd love to trade again and see whether we might use our unique strengths to each other's benefit.


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## Russ

BWFoster78 said:


> It's hard to imagine a time, however, when I'm willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars per edit, but I look forward to a day when I have the option.



Who the heck charges ten grand or more?  My wife's editor (and mine in due time) is top notch and she is not charging anywhere near ten grand?



> No author dislikes to be edited as much as he dislikes not to be published.
> - J. Russell Lynes


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## BWFoster78

Russ said:


> Who the heck charges ten grand or more?  My wife's editor (and mine in due time) is top notch and she is not charging anywhere near ten grand?
> 
> ​



Russ,

I was told that the low end for a copy edit of my 120k book should run $4000.  I've also been told that a content edit can run roughly twice that of a copy edit.  Therefore, bump that first number up a little to get to the high end, and you've got more than $10k.

Beats me.

Thanks.

Brian


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## BWFoster78

> A lot of that comes because certain people have given me feedback that directly contrasts with each other. One person will say they love a character and his mysterious nature and the really get him, and another will say they don't connect because they don't understand his motivation. I'm just not sure which way to go in cases like those.



I don't think I really approach crit advice like that at all.  That's almost like "majority rules."

Instead, I consider what everyone has said, sleep on it and think on it a lot, and make a decision solely on what I think is best.  Every word that is in my book is there because it was the best word I could find at the time, not because someone else thought it was a better word than what I used.



> maybe we ought to give trading another try. I'm down if you are.



Definitely.  You know, after reading what you wrote here, I took another look at something you critted for me.  Your comments resonated with me a lot more now than I think they did a couple of years ago.  I've grown a lot as an author since then.  Probably, I just wasn't ready for your comments then.



> After your edit, if you want another beta to give it a once-over, I'd be more than willing to trade books and see what we think.



While I'd definitely love to do some crit exchanging, I'm not sure _Rise _is the best opportunity.  I'm at the point on this one where I need to just put it out in the world and see what happens. Then move on to the next book.  My plan is, except for correcting obvious mistakes, to make the post editor version the last version.



> Anyways, I'm always here, and I am 100% behind you, no matter what you do, but if I can be helpful, I'd love to trade again and see whether we might use our unique strengths to each other's benefit.



Thanks!  If you have anything you want me to look over, feel free to sent it over in early August.  My writing/editing schedule for July is so, so booked, but I'll have time to read it around the first of next month.  Maybe you could read my next novel when it reaches beta reading stage?

My plan is to have _Repulsive_, a 60k to 70k superhero novel, ready to send to a content editor early next year.  So late winter/early spring, I'm going to need beta readers.  Sound good?

Thanks again!

Brian


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## Caged Maiden

You know, I'm glad you looked that crit over again.  I've been very interested in your recent posts because where once we didn't have a lot in common as writers, it looks like we're in a very similar situation now.  

I'm happy to read anything you want, I just felt like the help you most were looking for aligns with my strengths, and you seem to have a theory about editing so similar to my own right now.  I just wanted to offer, since you're obviously striving toward the same goal I am, so why not?  HA!

Also, I'm happy to read anything.  Just know that I'm not a comic reader, nor have I ever really been drawn to super heroes.  So I might miss jokes or what have you (like a crit partner I'm trading with now who writes spoofy sci-fi and I often find myself not "getting" his jokes, but I still do as thorough a crit as I can for him and he just takes it into account, that I don't know anything about the original Star Trek or whatever.  I'd say that when you're ready for a beta with your next work, I'm happy to give it a go.  I might not be the target audience, but I've got a lot of tools in my arsenal and I'm certainly willing to give it my best shot.  

I'd be happy to contact you again in August.  I'm moving the end of July/ beginning of August, so I'm not in a hurry.


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## BWFoster78

> I'm happy to read anything you want,



I'm turning _Abuse of Power_ into a novella and publishing it on Amazon.  I'm going to be soliciting beta readers for that in a couple/few weeks.  Not sure if you'd be interested in looking at that one again, though ...

If I had to choose, I'd rather line you up for _Repulsive_. If you're interested in both, though ... 



> nor have I ever really been drawn to super heroes.



Here's the basic story, if your interested (please don't crit the portion below as a pitch, though - just something I put together to summarize the story; needs lots of work):

Note: I’m not sure of the Love Interest’s name yet, thus I refer to her as LI. Nor is Super Awesome Mega Man going to be the name for that hero.

Zack Zukowski knows everything publically released about all thirty real superheroes created since Dr. Acid first appeared a decade ago.  How great it would be to become one of them. The power. The money. The girls … A girl, anyway—LI.

He’s so far into the friend zone that LI’s even tried to set him up, and given the attractiveness of the girl she chose, LI doesn’t think much of his prospects. Yes, becoming a superhero would change all that. And he’s got a shot. His initials, after all, are alliterative, and he’s the right age and is a classic underdog.

When he becomes Repulsor, however, he finds that the reality isn’t quite what he imagined. First of all, his powers make it painful to even look at him. Talk about a kick in the gut. And when he introduces LI to Super Awesome Mega Man, she starts dating the world’s most popular, and handsome, hero.

Worse, the villains have teamed up, and heroes have been dying. Not only is the balance of power totally out of whack, it’s apparent that the heroes have a traitor in their midst. It’s up to Zack to figure out who it is, capture enough of the bad guys to restore balance, and not get killed.


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## Caged Maiden

I'm happy to offer feedback on anything you'd like.  I've got a pile of work I'm rewriting, so I'd be interested in story-development critique in return, so it sounds like we'll be focusing on the same kinds of things for a while.


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## angelleaping

OMG... finding an editor sounds like creeping through a mine field. Where do you start?

thanks ..grace


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## Russ

angelleaping said:


> OMG... finding an editor sounds like creeping through a mine field. Where do you start?
> 
> thanks ..grace



I suggest the first thing you do is figure out your budget.  That will narrow the choices for you.


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## BWFoster78

angelleaping said:


> OMG... finding an editor sounds like creeping through a mine field. Where do you start?
> 
> thanks ..grace



I agree completely. There are a ton of "editors" out there who really have no clue what they're talking about.  Others are knowledgeable but might not be a good fit to work with you.

Are you looking for developmental editing or copy editing?


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## A.J.

As with most things to be done after your writing is finished, I seek info from my social circles. Go to writers you follow and ask who they've used. MOST will gladly respond. Make a list a whittle down. A lot of self published and indy writers have some great go-to editors. Best way to find quality for a low price.


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