# Page Publishing



## Iamfenian

Has anyone here dealt with Page Publishing?  Just curious...thanks!


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin

Nothing at all about their fees or percentages on their site.

Some general rules?

1) If their contract takes exclusive rights without paying you an advance, run. The only case where this is OK is with a small press that is doing superb marketing in your genre.

2) If they are charging any up front fees at all and taking any percentage of the income on sales, run. There are a few exceptions to this rule, but in almost all cases a company which both charges fees for services AND takes a percentage of income is a scam. Publishers earn the right to a percentage of the sales by footing the bill for editing, formatting, covers, etc.


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## Iamfenian

Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> Nothing at all about their fees or percentages on their site.
> 
> Some general rules?
> 
> 1) If their contract takes exclusive rights without paying you an advance, run. The only case where this is OK is with a small press that is doing superb marketing in your genre.
> 
> 2) If they are charging any up front fees at all and taking any percentage of the income on sales, run. There are a few exceptions to this rule, but in almost all cases a company which both charges fees for services AND takes a percentage of income is a scam. Publishers earn the right to a percentage of the sales by footing the bill for editing, formatting, covers, etc.



From the material they sent me it says they charge 20-25 cents per book depending on the price of the book. They claim to foot the bill for editting , formatting, etc. but it seems almost to good to be true!


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## Iamfenian

Not wanting to ever self publish a book I inquired about Page Publishing.  I don't know what the catch is...perhaps it's 20-25 cents per book sold.  Does this sound reasonable? This is a quote from their brochure. 





> Page Publishing is able to perform a complete list of services for our authors while requiring only a minimal investment since we collect a small administration fee from each book sale.  This fee, which is only 20-25 cents per book sold leaves the vast majority of any profits to directly  into your pocket![




What to expect: 1.Confidentiality agreement before manuscript submission 2. Publication coordinator 3. Editoral review 4.Pre-publication Full copy edit 5. Page design 6.ISBN and Barcode 7. Your printed book 8. Conversion to eBook formats 9.Distribution 10.Publicity 11.Book Reviews 12. Copyright registration


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin

I think the big question then is "how much are they charging you up front for these services?"

I can pretty much guarantee that if they are keeping a quarter for each book sold, they're charging over a thousand up front.


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## Sean Cunningham

Iamfenian said:


> From the material they sent me it says they charge 20-25 cents per book depending on the price of the book. They claim to foot the bill for editting , formatting, etc. but it seems almost to good to be true!



20-25 cents is the whole range? Whether the book is selling for $2.99 or $9.99? So anything from 12%-35%-ish, for the range I used?

Cover price or after the distributor takes their cut?


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## cyberjunkie

Page plus is a scam I know for a fact. I can not give to many details on a public forum without giving away who I am and creating problems for myself but I do have ties with this company and take my advice RUN the names you see are not real they are not real and have no experience in this industry and look at the address this is the same company pulling other scams. If you are seriously considering doing business with this company feel free to contact me privately and I will show you solid proof of what I am saying


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## Nihal

For future reference... Yes, what was posted above seems to be true. I've googled the thing, the second result was a thread of authors who didn't buy their story and contacted this company to investigate.

They were listed as regular published instead of vanity press, yet, to see her book published over a phone call one aspirant author was asked $5000 upfront as "author investment".

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but a room with the 6289 number wouldn't be located on the 62th floor? Well... One Penn Plaza has 57 floors.


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## cyberjunkie

Well they are not running out of their own office they have another business they run out of the same building which is a scam as well. But I wont mention that one publicly but will on a PM. I do not want to give away my identity but I work for this company not page publishing but the other one they run.


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## cyberjunkie

They are on the 17th floor but not under page publishing


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## senseiseth

Yeah, this thing looks like a money trap for authors who are really hellbent on getting their works in print. I have problem with an author paying a service if they're going into the self-publishing aspect of the business, but this one looks like you'll spend more than you earn. 

I hate to say it, but you'd be better going with Amazon's service, or something to that extent.


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## DontheDon

*Hey*



cyberjunkie said:


> They are on the 17th floor but not under page publishing



Hey I wanna know what's going in I have received a contract from them asking for 3155 but up front all I have to pay is 745. Now they say they won't take any money from my proceeds until I have made that 3155 back in sales. Now before I sign anything I want to know what you can tell me since you've been down this road before.


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## Steerpike

Signing a deal where you pay the publisher and then continue to pay them after publication until you hit that figure makes no sense whatsoever.


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## GeekDavid

Steerpike said:


> Signing a deal where you pay the publisher and then continue to pay them after publication until you hit that figure makes no sense whatsoever.



Especially in the modern day with so many self-publishing options available. Not just Kindle, there's Kobo (though they've got a black eye from deleting tons of indy stuff), Smashwords, and many others on the e-book side, and CreateSpace (another Amazon venture) and a few other print-on-demand services as well that you don't have to pay to get going with.

Paying a publisher to get into print makes zero sense, now more than ever.


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## AnneL

Everyone should know about Writer Beware, which is all about exposing scams. There are lists of problem publishers and agents. WRITER BEWAREÃ‚Â® | SFWA and see this especially: VANITY/SUBSIDY PUBLISHERS | SFWA


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## DontheDon

You know everyone is saying the same thing but know one is giving me any information on page publishing. I've looked at a lot of publishing companies. With any self publishing company I know I'm going to have to pay because they are doing all the work not me. As far as traditional publishing companies everyone Is saying they don't make you pay up front. They don't they give you and advance but they get there money back because you have to sign a contract and they get a percentage of your royalties never forget nothing is free. From what I have read self publishing is the way to go because you get more money back and I can make my own decision. Now unless someone can give me information on page publishing and not talking about vanity publishing I don't want to here it. I've had a contract from dorrance and black book and compared to their contracts page publishing contract seems more legit.


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## DontheDon

I'm not hell bent on getting my work published if it happens I'm greatful if not i still have a life to live. But in the end I know that I'm going to have to invest in my work whether I do it alone of get help from one of these companies. Either way money is spent. Personally I don't want to wait 3 months for a reply from a traditional company then 9 months of editing and how ever many more month before I see my products I'm trying to be hands on all the way.


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## GeekDavid

No, Don, you are *not* going to have to pay up front for "any" self publishing company.

You do *not* pay up front for Kindle Direct Publishing or CreateSpace.

You do *not* pay up front for Kobo.

You do *not* pay up front for Smashwords.

You do *not* pay up front for Lulu (print on demand publishing).

Have I made my point yet?

Any publisher that wants your money up front is a *scam*, period.


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## Nihal

Quoting myself for you, Don:



Nihal said:


> For future reference... Yes, what was posted above seems to be true. I've googled the thing, the second result was a thread of authors who didn't buy their story and contacted this company to investigate.
> 
> They were listed as regular published instead of vanity press, yet, to see her book published over a phone call one aspirant author was asked $5000 upfront as "author investment".
> 
> Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but a room with the 6289 number wouldn't be located on the 62th floor? Well... One Penn Plaza has 57 floors.



Plus



cyberjunkie said:


> They are on the 17th floor but not under page publishing




I won't even talk about the pitfalls of vanity press, I'll just say that a company that *lies* about its address is not a trustworthy company. I wouldn't trust even $50 to a liar, trusting a +$1k figure sounds absurd to me. Here is their contact page, you can check the address.


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## Devor

The big expenses for publishing are the Editing and Cover Art.  There's a handful of other minor expenses - formatting for ebooks, setting up an author's website, that sort of thing.  I think one thread added up the costs for professional work and came to about $1,500.

Legitimate publishing houses provide these services themselves, and offer an advance, in exchange for a share of the royalties.  They're taking a risk investing in you, that's what warrants a royalty.

Hypothetically somebody could offer these services for a fee and a payment plan, but if they're not taking a risk or making an investment, they don't deserve a royalty.

I can't imagine what you're supposed to be paying $3,000 plus a royalty for.


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## BWFoster78

DontheDon said:


> You know everyone is saying the same thing but know one is giving me any information on page publishing. I've looked at a lot of publishing companies. With any self publishing company I know I'm going to have to pay because they are doing all the work not me. As far as traditional publishing companies everyone Is saying they don't make you pay up front. They don't they give you and advance but they get there money back because you have to sign a contract and they get a percentage of your royalties never forget nothing is free. From what I have read self publishing is the way to go because you get more money back and I can make my own decision. Now unless someone can give me information on page publishing and not talking about vanity publishing I don't want to here it. I've had a contract from dorrance and black book and compared to their contracts page publishing contract seems more legit.



Don,

I think everyone on this thread is saying that Page Publishing is not a good choice.  

It sounds like you want to self publish, but you don't feel up to dealing with all the little details yourself.  My suggestion would be to create an account on Elance, list what you want done and how much you feel like paying, and get someone on there to handle it for you.  I'm sure that you can find someone with a good reputation rating with experience in self publishing that would be willing, for a commission, to handle finding you an editor, a cover artist, and someone to handle the formatting.

Just a thought.  Hope it helps!

Brian


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## GeekDavid

BWFoster78 said:


> My suggestion would be to create an account on Elance, list what you want done and how much you feel like paying, and get someone on there to handle it for you.  I'm sure that you can find someone with a good reputation rating with experience in self publishing that would be willing, for a commission, to handle finding you an editor, a cover artist, and someone to handle the formatting.



Rather than Elance, I suggest Writer.ly. It's specifically set up for the various needs of independent writers.


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## DontheDon

GeekDavid said:


> No, Don, you are *not* going to have to pay up front for "any" self publishing company.
> 
> You do *not* pay up front for Kindle Direct Publishing or CreateSpace.
> 
> You do *not* pay up front for Kobo.
> 
> You do *not* pay up front for Smashwords.
> 
> You do *not* pay up front for Lulu (print on demand publishing).
> 
> Have I made my point yet?
> 
> Any publisher that wants your money up front is a *scam*, period.



First off I don't know anything about that floor number thing when I put in the address and building came up so I can't comment on that I have no idea where that came from or if it true or not it wasn't in any information I got... Secondly I never said that you have to pay up front for those companies I said I know that I will have to pay ecspcially if someone is doin to work I don't want to do but like I said at the end of the day I know it's going to take money for me to make this happen whether I go with a company or not but anyways I done with this thread. I have prayed and gotten a greater opinion and I've made my decision. Thank you all for your input.


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## GeekDavid

DontheDon said:


> First off I don't know anything about that floor number thing when I put in the address and building came up so I can't comment on that I have no idea where that came from or if it true or not it wasn't in any information I got... Secondly I never said that you have to pay up front for those companies I said I know that I will have to pay ecspcially if someone is doin to work I don't want to do but like I said at the end of the day I know it's going to take money for me to make this happen whether I go with a company or not but anyways I done with this thread. I have prayed and gotten a greater opinion and I've made my decision. Thank you all for your input.



You're confusing me with another member. I never said anything at all about the floor numbers.

If you've decided to go with Page Publishing after all we've said, then on your own head be it. We've tried and tried and tried to tell you that it's a very bad idea, if you ignore our advice then it's your own fault *when* (not if) you get taken.


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## BWFoster78

GeekDavid said:


> You're confusing me with another member. I never said anything at all about the floor numbers.
> 
> If you've decided to go with Page Publishing after all we've said, then on your own head be it. We've tried and tried and tried to tell you that it's a very bad idea, if you ignore our advice then it's your own fault *when* (not if) you get taken.



There are none so blind as those who will not see...

Am I wrong, or did this just happen:

Newbie logs on and asks, "Hey, since all you have more experience than me, can you give me some advice about this company?"

Collected wisdom of the group: "Be glad to.  It boils down to this: you either give money up front OR you give a portion of your sales.  Any company who asks for both is bogus."

Newbie: "Whatever.  I'm done with you."

Collected: "Huh?"


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## Nihal

DontheDon said:


> First off I don't know anything about that floor number thing when I put in the address and building came up so I can't comment on that I have no idea where that came from or if it true or not it wasn't in any information I got... Secondly I never said that you have to pay up front for those companies I said I know that I will have to pay ecspcially if someone is doin to work I don't want to do but like I said at the end of the day I know it's going to take money for me to make this happen whether I go with a company or not but anyways I done with this thread. I have prayed and gotten a greater opinion and I've made my decision. Thank you all for your input.



That should be quoted for *me*, and this information was stated in this exact same thread. If you're wondering where, return to the first page are read it.

Look, Donthe, you asked for the advice and we gave it. We all believe it's a terrible idea and good reasons were given. You can take it or not, that's up to you. Stubbornness and rudeness are good for nothing, and I don't see the point of arguing over it if you're promptly dismissing all the advice you've requested.

Good luck.


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## GeekDavid

Nihal said:


> That should be quoted for *me*, and this information was stated in this exact same thread. If you're wondering where, return to the first page are read it.
> 
> Look, Donthe, you asked for the advice and we gave it. We all believe it's a terrible idea and good reasons were given. You can take it or not, that's up to you. Stubbornness and rudeness are good for nothing, and I don't see the point of arguing over it if you're promptly dismissing all the advice you've requested.
> 
> Good luck.



Seems to me he had already made up his mind to go with them and just wanted us to collectively pat him on the back and tell him how wise and intelligent he is.

When we didn't, of course he got mad and ran away. That's what immature people do.


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## Chilari

DontheDon said:


> First off I don't know anything about that floor number thing when I put in the address and building came up so I can't comment on that I have no idea where that came from or if it true or not it wasn't in any information I got... Secondly I never said that you have to pay up front for those companies I said I know that I will have to pay ecspcially if someone is doin to work I don't want to do but like I said at the end of the day I know it's going to take money for me to make this happen whether I go with a company or not but anyways I done with this thread. I have prayed and gotten a greater opinion and I've made my decision. Thank you all for your input.



There are two ways to publish:

1. Traditional publication. You pay nothing up front, the publisher takes money from your royalties to pay for editor and cover etc. You lose nothing, but you gain less per sale after publication.

2. Self-publication. You pay up front for services such as editing and cover art, usually direct to freelance editors and cover artists, but then after the distributor (Amazon, Smashwords, etc) takes a cut of your royalties to pay for distribution, everything after that is yours.

If there is a company asking for money up front AND royalties after the fact, they are NOT a traditional publisher because they want money up front and they are NOT offering self-publishing services because they are asking for royalties. *They are SCAMMING you.*


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## TWErvin2

If a publisher is charging the author fees to reach publication, generally their business model is based on earning money from the author, not from selling books and earning profits from readers. Maybe an author will break out, and the publisher in question will earn royalties as well, but I suspect it won't be due to anything the publisher actually did.

Some subsidy/vanity publishers charge additional fees for 'advertisements' or 'expanded distribution' or sending copies out to 'reviewers' etc. Again, the author is paying for this service, often at a far inflated rate.

If authors decide to go with a subsidy/vanity publisher, that's their right, but they should go into it with eyes wide open.

Randomly checking the sales ranks of a number of a publisher's works on Amazon can give the author an idea of what to expect, including the cover price, which also tends to be very high with subsidy presses, compared to competing books.


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## DontheDon

Wow for everyone that had harsh words against me. Thank you for asking my what my decision was first be jumping back on my thread ready to tell me how stupid I am for going we Page Publishing which not that it matters now I didn't I found my own editor and cover artist to work for me. To those who I said I was being rude no I wasn't I was just trying to get to the bottom line. I don't know how to work these threads so I commented all at once. I really didn't know anything about that floor number so stated it. And when I said I will have to spend money to get my book out there you do. I have to pay editor an cover artist for the work they are Doing for me hence investing into my product so know it may not be thousands of dollars but I knew I would have to pay. To all those who weren't trying to call me stupid in so many words based on my last post thank you for keeping your comments to your self I prayed on the situation and God sent me in the right direction. I was confused and I needed clarity now I have it.


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## DontheDon

No rude person on this thread I did not have my mind made up and I am woman for your information. I asked for information to get clarity before making a decision but when you have a go man from the company in your er basically saying all that everyone is saying is bs you would be confused too. All this information everyone has I had not seem yet it was I only had the contract one day when I posted so give me break dude. You have no idea what your talking about. Nobody ran clearly I'm still here I just made my decision and kept it moving why keep getting opinions on an issue that has been avoided. DHAH


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## DontheDon

I wasn't being rude I was just stating I didn't know anything about what floor it was on because I had never heard of it until someone mentioned it. Y'all are so quick to judge and didn't even know that I turned down the offer so thank you for asking first before coming to you own conclusion. Never been stubborn I just state what I know and don't know . I know that nothing in this world is free it was I wouldn't be paying and editor to edit my work and an artist to do my cover. Which was me reason for saying I know I'm going to have to pay.


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## DontheDon

I knew It wasn't you who said it.i just addressed both comments in one post


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## BWFoster78

DontheDon,

I think you made a wise decision to independently find and pay an editor and a cover artist.  If you don't mind, I have one other suggestion:

Instead of paying an editor right away, do what you can to improve your writing before submission.

An editor can only spend a certain amount of time on your piece, so you'll get a better end result if what you submit is pretty good to begin with.  Try the Showcase forum here and places like Scribophile to get feedback.  Learn from that feedback and do another draft or two before laying out money.

Unless money isn't much of a concern to you, I think you'll come out better this way in the long run.

Hope this helps.

Brian


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## Chilari

DontheDon, we are not trying to be harsh or call you stupid, we are trying to help you. But not just that, these kinds of vanity publishers hurt all writers because they put out poorly edited works with bad covers and charge writers for the privilege; and the more people are tricked to use them, the more of a foothold they have and the more money they can invest in getting their name in front of other aspiring authors to scam them too.

So these warnings aren't just about helping you, they're about making things clear as to WHY you shouldn't use them, and of course other writers might stumble on this thread too and see the same information we've been posting and make a decision to avoid Page Publishing and similar outfits as a result.

And yeah, what Brian said, editing is expensive so make the most of it by putting some work in first to refine things - and get a bit of free advice from other writers by posting in the Showcase - before investing.


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## DontheDon

I'm going to let my best friend do it because the person I chose to edit is on their own time. But thanks though I know if I edit my own work it will take months because I can't see my own faults ill be reading words that aren't really even there.


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## Iamfenian

Update:  I emailed Matt Johnson at Page Publishing and told him I was almost done with my second draft (he had been calling me about once a month).  During our initial conversation, I specifically mentioned if I had to "invest" any money.  He said "No."  The reply I received to my email was the God awful truth!  $795 upfront and then payments of $180....  He lied to me!  And I told him that in my second email and also told him off!  So they are a vanity press with deception with a capitol "D"!


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## cyberjunkie

I dont see many responses from the company but they are watching this thread so they are seeing all of your concerns and choosing to stay silent.. The only reason I know they are monitoring this thread is because they keep sending me messages trying to figure out who I am. I worked with them up until last month fortunately based on the messages they havent figured it out yet nut its only a matter of time and then they will be trying to sue me because thats just how they are. Interestingly enough it appears they are on someone else's radar to and they have put the peaces together nicely. Everyone here should watch this if you are a fan of this group or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAQetPv1930

Anonymous Hacktivists  Group targets corrupt scam organizations ..... Guess who made the list


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## rlf

*Fancy Address - Fake Address!*



Nihal said:


> For future reference... Yes, what was posted above seems to be true. I've googled the thing, the second result was a thread of authors who didn't buy their story and contacted this company to investigate.
> 
> They were listed as regular published instead of vanity press, yet, to see her book published over a phone call one aspirant author was asked $5000 upfront as "author investment".
> 
> Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but a room with the 6289 number wouldn't be located on the 62th floor? Well... One Penn Plaza has 57 floors.





You are so right! 
There is no "suite 6289", nor "62nd floor" at One Penn Plaza, in Manhattan, and there is no Page Publishing at that address. I went there my self, spoke to the doormen/security: they told me there is no one on that name in the building and that they definitely use the address illegally. They told me to go to the UPS store, just around the corner, and they'd tell me more. I went to UPS, and they said Page Publishing have a dropbox with them. That's all they know.

They didn't even mind to write the (fake) address correctly in their brochure: It's "One Penn Plaza" and not "1 Penn Plaza"!

Will do all I can to make this scam end. 
Writers do not need these materf...s to ruin their life and their expectations.
Don't trust this Page Publishing scam.


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## acapes

Just thought I'd drop off this link - folks probably already know about it - but it's a handy site to check up on a publishing company; preditors & editors - they might hvae some more info on Page.

Preditors & Editors


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## NoraSeries

Don, thank you so much for opening this thread. I have been searching for information on page publishing on Google and have just not been able to find out anything they didn't say themselves. 

This thread has been a wonderful resource for me. I understand that there was some dispute caused by multiple assumptions and layers of misunderstandings, which in all honesty were quite terrible to barrow through. However, I do believe some really great advice were given and taken. Thank you all for contributing. 

And this is my introduction to this website. I feel so lucky to have stumbled here.


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## Ex-PublishingConsultant

I'd love to help all of you re Page Publishing. I worked with them and knowing how many authors have been ripped off, I really wanna help. Message me for details.


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## QuitMonkeyingAround!

They do! It's $1595 up front with additionals monthly payments of $295 for another eight months. So in total you'll pay $3955 just to get your book publish.


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## aconcernedwriter

Guys, I have a question. If you didn't go to a notary or wherever it is you have to go to get your work copyrighted, but you've sent it to a publishing company that turned out to be a vanity publisher a.k.a. a scamming company, like Page Publishing, can they steal your work? I'm very concerned after having sent my work to them and receiving an email about their "investment" afterward. I still haven't returned their call, but I will, saying no-- I just want to make sure they don't claim it's theirs afterward or something. Also, can I get some advice on who to contact to actually publish my book with a legit company? I don't think I want to self-publish. I want to contact legit companies. Thanks in advance.


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## TWErvin2

You have to register your work with the U.S. Copyright Office. It costs about $35.00 to do it electronically, if I recall. U.S. Copyright Office
Usually that's done by your publisher, and thus, after the work is published. Technically, the work is copyright protected the moment you create it.

It is unlikely that a vanity press will publish your work. Their business model is more to earn money from writers, than it is selling published works, which is what they would have to do if they were to take the manuscript you sent them and publish it.

As far as finding a publisher, in the traditional sense, you can either find an agent to represent your work or find a publisher that accepts unsolicited manuscripts. Both routes can be a long process.

There is really too much about both of those options to cover adequately in a post. You can search the forum here at *Mythic Scribes *and find information. 

There are also websites that have articles about finding agents/publishers, such as SFWA's Resource Page and Writer Beware. (I listed the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America links as opposed to other writer organizations as you're here, and presumably write fantasy   )

It'll take some time to research and read, but it'll be time well spent.

Good luck moving forward.

Terry


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## Battyboy1

I recently came into contact with page publishing and was about to sign a contract with them. Please if you are still apart of this forum please give me some insight to this company. My contact is Richard Roma. He appears to be a good guy.  Please advise.


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## Battyboy1

Please advise on any advise you can share about page publishing. I have been hearing bad stories.  I want to believe they are a good company. It sounds like traditional publishing is the way to go.  Any advise would be appreciated.


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## Sylvia Vahldick

cyberjunkie said:


> Page plus is a scam I know for a fact. I can not give to many details on a public forum without giving away who I am and creating problems for myself but I do have ties with this company and take my advice RUN the names you see are not real they are not real and have no experience in this industry and look at the address this is the same company pulling other scams. If you are seriously considering doing business with this company feel free to contact me privately and I will show you solid proof of what I am saying


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