# Underrated Cultures



## Telcontar

Hello, my dear Scribes. I have a question for you: What are your favorite 'underrated' historical cultures of the world? I'm creating a new culture, and I don't feel like going to the old standbys. I also need to do it fairly soon, so I can't waste my scant free time browsing the internet. So tell me: What culture do you think deserves more fame? More impact? 

I will not, of course, be basing this fictional culture on any single source (I always draw from multiple sources) but I want some _new_ sources to play with.

There is your task. Go!


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## Queshire

I'm not sure if it counts as underated, but everytime somebody bases a culture on Japan they always do it so stereotypically that it becomes cliche. Why can't anybody take the values / culture of Japan without falling into the generic Samurai & Ninja pit?


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## Alex97

Never seen much fantsasy based upon native Northen Americans so that would be quite interesting to see.


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## Jabrosky

By far my favorite cultures to use for fantasy stories are African cultures, most especially Egyptian and Nubian, but sub-Saharan cultures are also nifty.


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## Queshire

Oh! Speaking of Native American, I'd love to see something done with the Ainu Culture. Essentially, they are the Native American equivilant for Japan & Russia, only instead of getting stuck in the middle of the desert, they're stuck on Hokaido, the northernmost and most rural Japanese Island.


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## Caged Maiden

Poland.  I know it sounds really out there, but I love the historical costumes from Poland and really want to make one for myself.  It's an interesting history too, and definitely not the typical western European Middle Ages setting.


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## Ankari

Actually, I was reading about a lot of the religions of the world, both ancient and current, and found inspiration with the Alaskan natives.  They have a great mythology to build a culture from.


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## Devor

Each region, historically, has had its own dominant players, and they tend to steal the spotlight.  In my research, a lot of the surrounding cultures tend to mimic the leaders a lot, especially in later periods.

Since people are mentioning Native Americans, I'll go with the "Native" Europeans.  The Sami people of Norway and Finland herded Reindeer and were pretty isolated from the rest of Europe because of their freezing location.  They resemble Native Americans quite a bit.

I think if you transplanted the culture of modern Belgium into a medieval setting, you might end up with a fun Shire-like tone.  I mean, really, who can resist fine beer and chocolate?  But they've a cool culture that goes deeper than that.  That's probably true for a lot of modern countries - think what you could do with the Amsterdam of Middle Earth?  Or see how close you can get a Fantasy city to modern LA.

Some great places existed in obscure places where cultures wound up meeting.  Take Miran, an oasis city in a desert, surrounded by mountains, on the silk road.  The ruins show influences from Rome, Buddhism and Islam.  There's not a lot of information about them, but can you imagine a setting like that?  The story possibilities that place would hold?  You've got phenomenal cultural clashes, exotic wealth passing through, _and_ an isolated setting that could be filled with fantastic dangers.

There's really no end.  Just keep clicking on Wikipedia until you find something.


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## Telcontar

Thanks everyone for your input. Keep 'em coming!


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## Mindfire

Queshire said:


> I'm not sure if it counts as underated, but everytime somebody bases a culture on Japan they always do it so stereotypically that it becomes cliche. Why can't anybody take the values / culture of Japan without falling into the generic Samurai & Ninja pit?



Because samurai and ninja are _awesome_? And if you're going to make something action/battle oriented that involves Japan, there's really nowhere else to go except samurai and ninja unless your setting is WWII. Also, samurai and ninja are awesome.

Incidentally, I don't think I've ever seen a really cool ninja equivalent represented in "traditional" fantasy due to the usual European setting. I think I want to include ninjas in my world now.


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## OGone

Meso-American and Polynesian cultures, namely the Ancient Mayans and Hawaiians, are underrated in my opinion. 

The Mayan culture mirrors Ancient Greece in many ways, both were known for astronomy, astrology, architecture, mathematical systems and art; just the Mayans receive a lot less spotlight in mainstream fiction and media. 

I have a few races drawing from Mayan and Hawaiian culture including a black tengu race and "goblins" (actually nothing like goblins, they represent more tarsiers and despite being indigenous are not antagonistic in any way). Sacrificial acts, temples and worshipping of the stars are prominent in their culture and they dwell in rain forests or near volcanic areas and coastlines. Their languages derive from the pictograms used in Mayan culture and words used in the ancient Hawaiian languages.

I feel these two tribal cultures are underused.


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## Jabrosky

Mindfire said:


> Incidentally, I don't think I've ever seen a really cool ninja equivalent represented in "traditional" fantasy due to the usual European setting. I think I want to include ninjas in my world now.



I plan to have "warrior monks/priests" similar to the Shaolin in one of my stories, except they have an African rather than Asian appearance and cultural flavor.

While we're on the subject of dark-skinned peoples, I think a fantasy civilization based on New Guineans would also be neat.


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## Queshire

grrr.... Those black pajama ninja are completely unrealistic! The black pajamas are not steathy at all and were never used in real life. In japanese theater, stage hands wore black and the theater goers were trained to ignore them. The ninja connection comes from those stage hands suddenly going from not being part of the play / invisible to part of the play / visible by "assassinating" one of the actual characters. It was this concept of having someone people were trained to ignore suddenly killing someone that connected it with the ninja, as ninja frequently disguised themselves as gardeners or other member of other proffessions that people ignored to pull off their assassination. The highly visibile almost magical ninja idea is just... wrong. It's just wrong.


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## Shockley

I have a real thing for Finnish and the Finno-Ugric peoples. I don't know how underrated it is since a lot of their nature has found its way into modern fantasy (Though usually filtered through Viking and Anglo-Saxon culture), but there's not a conscious recognition of it most of the time. I make a point of using Finnish names from time-to-time (Eino, for those of you who saw my showcase post, is a Finnish name) and I just really like their culture. It's kind of like the Viking/Nordic culture, but somehow (to me) more romantic and fantastic. Also, they have one of the best mythological systems I've ever encountered.

 Also, I have a real soft spot for Semitic cultures of the ancient Middle East. Not only is it the basis for quite a bit of the culture we encounter on a day-to-day basis, some of it is really amazing stuff. Marduk, Tiamat, Molech, etc. are all extremely interesting, as are a lot of their historical figures.

 Classifying all of those people as 'Semitic' might be inaccurate (or akin to saying that Europeans are your favorite underrated culture), but that's what I'll stick with.


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## Mindfire

Queshire said:


> grrr.... Those black pajama ninja are completely unrealistic! The black pajamas are not steathy at all and were never used in real life. In japanese theater, stage hands wore black and the theater goers were trained to ignore them. The ninja connection comes from those stage hands suddenly going from not being part of the play / invisible to part of the play / visible by "assassinating" one of the actual characters. It was this concept of having someone people were trained to ignore suddenly killing someone that connected it with the ninja, as ninja frequently disguised themselves as gardeners or other member of other proffessions that people ignored to pull off their assassination. The highly visibile almost magical ninja idea is just... wrong. It's just wrong.



Dude, calm down. You're preaching to the choir. I know all of that stuff already. But it doesn't make ninjas any less cool. Like Snake Eyes from G.I. Joe. Best. Ninja. Ever.


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## Fnord

I always liked Scythians.  Robert E. Howard drew from them a bit and most recently some of their culture was adopted for the Dothraki in the _Song of Ice and Fire_ series, though these things were adopted fairly loosely.  

The problem with these "underrated" cultures is the fact that in the grand scheme of things, they ended up being the "losers" of history eventually and their culture and traditions wiped clean from the historic record, especially for those groups who didn't engage in any written forms of history.  Nomadic groups like the Scythians were a lot less likely to have permanent dwellings or structures of that nature, so historic accounts from more civilized populations (and sifting through things like burial mounds) are the only real glimpses we get to see a lot of of cultures.  Most of it is just trying to fill in the gaps.


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## Jon_Chong

A lot of Asian cultures - and their histories - tend to get ignored in western fantasy. Take China and Japan for example. They've invaded our movies and games and various streams of popculturedom with their kungfu and their katanas but not our books. And what about Koreans? Their kpop is like a virulent disease and their dramas are eveywhere but never has their culture been depicted in books. And then we go south and find that there are hardcore warriors like the old muay thai fighters of Thailand, the witch doctors of Malaysia and Indonesia and their various monsters and none of these are represented at all in fantasy. And we haven't even headed west, to the subcontinent of India and the Middle East, the birthplace of religion and depending on who you talk to, humanity and civilization.


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## Telcontar

Jabrosky said:


> I plan to have "warrior monks/priests" similar to the Shaolin in one of my stories, except they have an African rather than Asian appearance and cultural flavor.
> 
> While we're on the subject of dark-skinned peoples, I think a fantasy civilization based on New Guineans would also be neat.



Do you happen to know the name of a particular tribe of those New Guineans?


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## Jabrosky

Telcontar said:


> Do you happen to know the name of a particular tribe of those New Guineans?



I admit New Guinea is a region I've only started to learn about, but as a matter of fact I've used the names of several New Guinean groups as city names for this map. The challenge is that New Guinea has a lot of cultural and linguistic diversity, so while the various societies populating it may share a few cultural characteristics, it's hard to find one tribe that stands out from the rest as particularly useful for worldbuilding.


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## Anders Ã„mting

While not exactly underrated, I find that the vikings tend to be... misunderstood, I suppose.

They're usually depicted as these barbarian dudes wearing bearskins and leather and chainmail, kinda grey and brown all over. But historical accounts seem to indicate they were actually a pretty colorful and sorta vain bunch: They were apparently fond of strong, bright colors and would pick up fashion statements from the various places they visited and they also seem to have liked jewelry and kept themselves reasonably clean. Ahmad ibn Rustah reports that: "they carry clean clothes and the men adorn themselves with bracelets and gold. They treat their slaves well and also they carry exquisite clothes, because they put great effort in trade." They were also rather concerned with personal hygiene and hair care, at least going by the sheer amount of grooming tools they left behind - razors, tweezers, ear spoons and a crazy amount of combs. Ahmad ibn Fadlan also claimed that the rus vikings were "tattooed from fingernails to neck" with dark blue or dark green patters that resembled trees.

Like, are you picturing these guys? Have you _ever_ seen vikings portrayed like that?

They are also made out as these grim, brutal warrior people who were obsessed with battle. And sure, they could be pretty violent, especially when they were out raiding, but then again it was a very violent period in general. And as ibn Rustah points out above, the vikings were first and formost expert merchants, which you can't be if you're not very good at getting along with people. Rustah actually goes on to point out that they were very friendly towards outsiders. Additionally, the norse sagas seem to portray them as a very no-nonsense people who valued common sense and cunning, and who tended to have a very dry, sarcastic sense of humour. 

Just once I would like to see a portrayal of the vikings that breaks away from the stereotypes and tries to show them as what they seem to have actually been. Trouble is, if you do that odds are people actually won't recognise them as vikings.


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## Ankari

Anders Ã„mting said:


> Just once I would like to see a portrayal of the vikings that breaks away from the stereotypes and tries to show them as what they seem to have actually been. Trouble is, if you do that odds are people actually won't recognise them as vikings.



I am having a little trouble merging the two images you describe.  On one hand they are described as very clean and friendly to outsiders with a great reputation as merchants while on the other hand they were violent raiders.  What were their motives for all the raiding and how did people accept them as merchants knowing that they next day they show up it could be as raiders?


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## Devor

Anders Ã„mting said:


> Just once I would like to see a portrayal of the vikings that breaks away from the stereotypes and tries to show them as what they seem to have actually been. Trouble is, if you do that odds are people actually won't recognise them as vikings.



I remember seeing a quote that described the disgust that someone, I think a Muslim, felt at seeing the Vikings wash up from the same basin, followed by a commentary which said, actually, it was very impressive for the time period that they washed up at all.  I think the image of the Viking invader was sort of blended with the Celtic and Germanic barbarians - sort of an "all our enemies look alike" kind of thing - which I think helped the Norsemen to succeed once they established their settlements.  _Hey, we don't look like your enemies._

I also suspect their hygiene was a big part in explaining their fierceness as warriors.  They were tougher, in part, because they took better care of themselves.




Ankari said:


> What were their motives for all the raiding and how did people accept them as merchants knowing that they next day they show up it could be as raiders?



Motives?  Too many theories to count.  But Viking history is a little more complex than the hit-and-run image which people have.  They often hit-and-ran, but they also settled extensively and traded with the people around their settlements.  At one point they controlled most of England, and the French liked them so much that they gave them citizenship and the province of Normandy.


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## Anders Ã„mting

Ankari said:


> I am having a little trouble merging the two images you describe.  On one hand they are described as very clean and friendly to outsiders with a great reputation as merchants while on the other hand they were violent raiders.  What were their motives for all the raiding and how did people accept them as merchants knowing that they next day they show up it could be as raiders?



Well, going viking (iow, raiding) was basically just another way of making a living to them - the literal vikings were disorganized pirate bands for the most part. If you were lucky and skilled it was a quick way of earning fame and fortune, but it was just one way of getting by: vikings could be merchants or mercenaries or farmers and the people who did the raiding weren't necessarily the same people that did the trading. As for why people would still trade with them... *shrug* I'd say probably the same reason people were willing to trade with any other type of pirate: they had stuff to sell and money spend. It was business, not something personal. And the vikings were probably savvy enough to not try to hit major trading ports. (On account of needing places to sell stuff and spend money.) 

Besides, it was a different time and people back then had different ideas of what was acceptable behavior. People who were enemies one day could be allies the next. A good example is the viking leader Rollo who besieged Paris and basically bullied the French king into giving him Normandy in exchange for homage and fealty and a promise to please stop raiding the capital. 

Then there's various other factors - wether they traveled the western or eastern routes, wether they were settlers or just travellers, or which specific regions they came from. You have to keep in mind that the vikings weren't a unified people - there wasn't a centralized viking society. They didn't just viking other cultures, they vikinged each other a lot as well. You can't really hold a grudge to, say, the Danish for raiding your region when you were yourself raiding in Denmark last summer. It was just a thing they did.



Devor said:


> I remember seeing a quote that described the disgust that someone, I think a Muslim, felt at seeing the Vikings wash up from the same basin, followed by a commentary which said, actually, it was very impressive for the time period that they washed up at all.



That would be ibn Fadlan. Though, to be fair, the Muslims had _very_ high standards of cleanlyness for that time. 

It could also be as simple as the particular vikings Fadlan encountered happened to take their grooming less seriously, or where just short on water at the time or something like that. *shrug* Who knows.


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## grahamguitarman

Saying all Vikings were raiders is a bit like saying all Caribbean sailors were pirates.  Yes there were Viking pirates, but there were also Viking settlers, Viking farmers and Viking Traders ect.  Many Vikings never even left their own shores, preferring to live as peaceful villagers in Scandinavia.  

So the description of Viking traders as sociable and friendly people isn't really contradictory, if you accept that they were probably not the same Vikings as those doing the raiding.

Most people get their image of the Vikings from the writings of monks and nobles in England, who were rightfully complaining about Viking Raiders.  These people never talked about the peaceful Vikings who just wanted a civilised interaction with the world (within the limitations of a world that was filled with violence anyway)

Its kind of ironic that we see the Vikings as vicious barbarians, yet the Romans are considered as being highly civilised.  In the colliseum the Romans didn't just have chariot races and gladiator fights, people were hideously tortured for public entertainment.  For example Christians were forced to sit on red hot iron chairs to be slowly cooked alive - in front of large audiences who would cheer the torturers on!  So who were more civilised - the Romans or the Vikings?

as for underused culture - what about the aborigines of australia,  any tale told from an aboriginal POV is going to be filled with magic and mysticism.  The aboriginal dreamtime sounds very inspirational to me


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## grahamguitarman

Anders Ã„mting said:


> They didn't just viking other cultures, they vikinged each other a lot as well. You can't really hold a grudge to, say, the Danish for raiding your region when you were yourself raiding in Denmark last summer. It was just a thing they did.
> .



Agreed, before the british people were unified into a single kingdom, the smaller tribes and kingdoms were constantly raiding each other.  Read up about Dark age culture and you find a world where the summer was spent raiding and fighting against other tribes, while the winters were spent in the great halls boasting about the summers conquests.  So to most native British the Vikings were doing nothing they didn't do themselves.  It was mostly the Monks who demonised the Vikings for their lifestyles (not least of all because they were prime targets).  Unfortunately it was the monks who wrote early British history, not the native peoples - who would have perhaps shown the Vikings in a different light.


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## Mindfire

Anders Ã„mting said:


> While not exactly underrated, I find that the vikings tend to be... misunderstood, I suppose.
> 
> They're usually depicted as these barbarian dudes wearing bearskins and leather and chainmail, kinda grey and brown all over. But historical accounts seem to indicate they were actually a pretty colorful and sorta vain bunch: They were apparently fond of strong, bright colors and would pick up fashion statements from the various places they visited and they also seem to have liked jewelry and kept themselves reasonably clean. Ahmad ibn Rustah reports that: "they carry clean clothes and the men adorn themselves with bracelets and gold. They treat their slaves well and also they carry exquisite clothes, because they put great effort in trade." They were also rather concerned with personal hygiene and hair care, at least going by the sheer amount of grooming tools they left behind - razors, tweezers, ear spoons and a crazy amount of combs. Ahmad ibn Fadlan also claimed that the rus vikings were "tattooed from fingernails to neck" with dark blue or dark green patters that resembled trees.
> 
> Like, are you picturing these guys? Have you _ever_ seen vikings portrayed like that?
> 
> They are also made out as these grim, brutal warrior people who were obsessed with battle. And sure, they could be pretty violent, especially when they were out raiding, but then again it was a very violent period in general. And as ibn Rustah points out above, the vikings were first and formost expert merchants, which you can't be if you're not very good at getting along with people. Rustah actually goes on to point out that they were very friendly towards outsiders. Additionally, the norse sagas seem to portray them as a very no-nonsense people who valued common sense and cunning, and who tended to have a very dry, sarcastic sense of humour.
> 
> Just once I would like to see a portrayal of the vikings that breaks away from the stereotypes and tries to show them as what they seem to have actually been. Trouble is, if you do that odds are people actually won't recognise them as vikings.



But didn't they also, you know, murder innocent women and children in the name of honor and glory?


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## Anders Ã„mting

Mindfire said:


> But didn't they also, you know, murder innocent women and children in the name of honor and glory?



Eh. I suppose the occasional woman and child might have gotten killed during a viking raid, but I've definitely never heard of them doing such things habitually, because they thought killing women and chilren was cool or whatever. I mean, why would they? If anything, they'd be far more likely to capture any non-combatants. Worst case scenario, you'd get sacrificed to the gods for good fortune and favorable weather, but more likely you'd just get sold as a thrall. That way they'd make an actual profit. Like I said, they seem to have been very practical-minded people. 

As for the innocents who did end up dead, well, the vikings basically had a way of looking at things that sometimes seems kinda alien to our moderns sensitivities. Morals aren't universal, after all. 

I heard a story somewhere, not sure about the historical validity but it still kinda illustrates what I mean: There was a viking band that started running low on provisions, so they anchored near a farm in the dead of night. Their plan was to sneak into the farm, steal what they needed and then hightail out of there. But then one of the vikings objected: they were vikings, not cowardly thieves, and he was uncomfortable about stealing since it was dishonorable. The other vikings agreed and after some discussion they revised the plan somewhat: They would sneak in, kill everyone in their sleep, and then make off with the loot. That technically made it a legitimate viking raid, which was not at all dishonorable. Everyone agreed this was a much better plan.


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## grahamguitarman

Mindfire said:


> But didn't they also, you know, murder innocent women and children in the name of honor and glory?



No, women and children were more likely to have been enslaved, not killed.  And by all accounts their slaves were fairly well treated.  Honour and Glory could only be gained in combat against worthy opponents, ie other warriors.  A Viking warrior killing an unarmed and weak innocent for no reason would have been accused of cowardice.


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## Devor

grahamguitarman said:


> Saying all Vikings were raiders is a bit like saying all Caribbean sailors were pirates.



Saying all Vikings were raiders is more like saying all Pirates are Pirates.  Can we try Norsemen?


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## Telcontar

I was wondering about that. So the term viking _does_ only apply to the seaborne raider types? Not to any civilian population?


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## Devor

Telcontar said:


> I was wondering about that. So the term viking _does_ only apply to the seaborne raider types? Not to any civilian population?



I guess it depends a little on who you ask, but typically nowadays that distinction is made.  The word "viking" comes from the people they attacked and is loaded with stereotypes.




grahamguitarman said:


> No, women and children were more likely to have been enslaved, not killed.  And by all accounts their slaves were fairly well treated.  Honour and Glory could only be gained in combat against worthy opponents, ie other warriors.  A Viking warrior killing an unarmed and weak innocent for no reason would have been accused of cowardice.



What accounts are you referring to?  Almost everything we know is under one of two filters - that of the victims who wanted them to be horrible, or that of the post-Viking-age monks who wanted stories that stressed then-modern morality.  We really don't know as much for sure as we'd like to think.  Just a few of their written laws.

But to get back on topic, a good forgotten culture would be - drumroll please -

. . . . I can't remember.  

Oh!  How about Cold War Baltics?  That's definitely a cultural attitude that could be richly transcribed into a Fantasy setting.


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## Ivan

"The term Viking (from Old Norse vÃ­kingr) is customarily used to refer to the Norse explorers, warriors, merchants, and pirates who raided, traded, explored and settled in wide areas of Europe, Asia and the North Atlantic islands from the late 8th to the mid-11th century." -Wikipedia, Viking

So apparently those who stayed on the farm were not Vikings.

At any rate, getting back to the topic, ancient Korea has quite a strong culture and history of its own.


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## Benjamin Clayborne

Mindfire said:


> But didn't they also, you know, murder innocent women and children in the name of honor and glory?



That could be describing any number of historical cultures.


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## Shockley

All vikings are vikings, not all Norsemen are vikings.  That said, there seems to be a broader application to the term 'viking' in traditional Nordic culture. For example, the Jomsvikings were a land-based holy order/mercenary hybrid, and the term was still applied.

 Also, the Anglo-Saxons (Hengest himself would have been a viking, eerily) differentiated between the viking raids and the invasion of the Great Heathen Army, so there's that.


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## Mindfire

Ivan said:


> At any rate, getting back to the topic, ancient Korea has quite a strong culture and history of its own.



Their neighbors, particularly China and Japan, seem to view Korean culture as derivative.


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## Jabrosky

Mindfire said:


> Their neighbors, particularly China and Japan, seem to view Korean culture as derivative.



Most cultures are susceptible to influence by their neighbors to one degree or another, especially if said neighbors are very powerful. I know jack shit about the Koreans but I would actually be surprised if they _didn't_ have local traditions differentiating them from China and Japan.

I know I already cited African cultures as underrated earlier in this thread, but one African people I've thought more about recently are the ancient Nubians (or Kushites) who lived in what is now Sudan. Most people know them as the "Black Pharaohs" who mimicked their Egyptian rivals and neighbors, but what isn't as widely known is that not only did the Nubians have sophisticated cultures even before the Egyptians conquered them (A-Group and Kerma being the best examples), they also exerted their own influences onto Egypt. In fact the institution of sacral kingship that lay at the heart of Egyptian culture may have been borrowed from the Nubians. It additionally appears that the Egyptians' ancestors learned how to make pottery and raise cattle from the Nubians. I definitely want to write a fantasy story with a Nubian inspiration sometime in the future.


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## Mindfire

Jabrosky said:


> Most cultures are susceptible to influence by their neighbors to one degree or another, especially if said neighbors are very powerful. I know jack shit about the Koreans but I would actually be surprised if they _didn't_ have local traditions differentiating them from China and Japan.
> 
> I know I already cited African cultures as underrated earlier in this thread, but one African people I've thought more about recently are the ancient Nubians (or Kushites) who lived in what is now Sudan. Most people know them as the "Black Pharaohs" who mimicked their Egyptian rivals and neighbors, but what isn't as widely known is that not only did the Nubians have sophisticated cultures even before the Egyptians conquered them (A-Group and Kerma being the best examples), they also exerted their own influences onto Egypt. In fact the institution of sacral kingship that lay at the heart of Egyptian culture may have been borrowed from the Nubians. It additionally appears that the Egyptians' ancestors learned how to make pottery and raise cattle from the Nubians. I definitely want to write a fantasy story with a Nubian inspiration sometime in the future.





Spoiler: Non sequitur off topic mini-rant



Very true. In fact, there is a direct link between the Egyptians and the Nubians. They were closely related. I don't know why people differentiate between Egyptians and Africans. Egyptians _were _Africans. Many physical anthropological studies on ancient Egyptian remains, especially those from Egypt's predynastic period have found an affinity with tropical Africans. The only reason they've ever been depicted as white is ignorance. Sorry for the off-topic, but the "white Egyptians" thing is a pet peeve of mine. The only "white" Egyptians were during the Ptolemaic period. And one could argue that they weren't really Egyptians anyway, just Greeks playing dress-up.



Has anyone said Native Americans yet? I don't think they have been represented in fantasy much. Unless you count the Water Tribe from Avatar, who were based on the Inuit.


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## Telcontar

One could also argue that even Greeks aren't "white" in most senses of the word. I agree, thinking of Egyptians as somehow Western (white) is ridiculous. 

Also, and again, thanks everybody. This thread has made for some entertaining and informative reading.


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## Jabrosky

Telcontar said:


> One could also argue that even Greeks aren't "white" in most senses of the word.



For my part, I consider all native Europeans to be White, but yeah, the Greeks probably were never perfectly "Nordic".


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## Ivan

Mindfire said:


> Their neighbors, particularly China and Japan, seem to view Korean culture as derivative.



Well, of course they would say that. People being what they are, everyone wants to say "they got that idea from us because we are so smart and clever and awesome." It's a form of self-flattery. 

There was inevitably a good amount of Chinese influence, and on the surface there are similarities. However, Korea has a lot of completely unique art and culture all its own.


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## Steerpike

Mindfire: true about the Ptolemaic line, which makes it somewhat humorous that you have some people who complain when Cleopatra isn't cast as a black actress. I do think either Native Americans or indigenous African cultures would make for a good fantasy.


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## Steerpike

Telcontar said:


> I was wondering about that. So the term viking _does_ only apply to the seaborne raider types? Not to any civilian population?



My understanding it that the term refers to the act, or as I've heard some people put it, a profession. So the "vikings" were the ones who went on raids. The Norse who did other things like stay home and farm were not vikings, by definition.


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## grahamguitarman

Devor said:


> What accounts are you referring to? Almost everything we know is under one of two filters - that of the victims who wanted them to be horrible, or that of the post-Viking-age monks who wanted stories that stressed then-modern morality. We really don't know as much for sure as we'd like to think. Just a few of their written laws.



Well how about Ahmad ibn Rustah for example?  he could be classed as a a fairly unbiased witness.  There are probably others too but I can't be bothered to look them up.

Technically only those who went raiding were Viking,  but it is still common for the term Viking to be used to describe anyone associated with them.  For example the Vikings captured large tracts of my native county of Yorkshire, but the settlers who followed in their wake (including peaceful women and children) were stilled referred to as Viking settlers even though they never took part in the original raids.  

The truth is that nothing is ever as black and white as some people think.  Take the claim that Korea is just a fusion of Chinese and Japanese culture.  Study Japanese history properly (looking beyond the samurai and ninjas) and you will find that early Japan took most of its cultural identity from China too, even its written language was largely based on Chinese calligraphy.  Of course the Japanese blended this Chinese influence with their own native culture, then developed that blend into something entirely unique.  But no-one accuses the Japanese of being a Chinese rip-off, the same applies to Korea, sure they were influenced by the Chinese (and ironically the Japanese) but they also had a unique culture of their own to bring to the blend.

I'm glad the Egyptian / Nubian thing came up as that is a pet peeve of mine too - you only need to look at early Egyptian painting and sculpture to see that the early Egyptians were African in appearance.  Going by the paintings they appeared to be more of a brown colour than black, but they still had the large lips and slightly broader / flatter noses of the typically African face (as far as you can call any African face typical some had quite long and thin noses).  The later Ptolemaic rulers were of course most likely of Greek extraction (Alexander didn't just have Greeks in his army) hence the perception of light skinned Egyptians.  

You could look at any historical culture and chances are the reality is very different from the popular perception.  But for fantasy purposes does it really matter?  You are only using these cultures as a reference point for creating your own culture anyway.


----------



## Mindfire

grahamguitarman said:


> But no-one accuses the Japanese of being a Chinese rip-off


The Chinese do. Lol


----------



## Shockley

Well, I guess this is the historian in me:

1. I'm not surprised that the Chinese and the Japanese have that concept of Korea. It was traded off between the two powers for years and years. A good portion of what we see as North Korea was part of the Chinese state as far back as the Han era. In fact, there was a powerful military clan during the Three Kingdoms era (the Gongsuns, and China's - not Korea's - Three Kingdom period) that, starting out from a place in what is now just north of North Korea, conquered almost the entirety of modern North Korea and a good portion of modern South Korea. Gongsun's activity occurred after most of the continent had been taken over by the Han, even.

 So, looking at that and the substantial occupation periods by later powers, a good deal of Korean culture is probably derivative (as much as modern British culture is derived from Celts, Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Norwegians, Danes, Normans, etc.).

 2. Whatever most of the ancient Egyptians were, they weren't black. They had a very clear concept of skin color (look, as above-mentioned, how they described the Kushites). They weren't white, either. They made a clear distinction between black dynasties (the twenty-fifth dynasty was certain led by Sub-Saharan Africans) and white dynasties (the Ptolemeys) and their own, native dynasties. Ramses the Great, just to use the ultimate example of what we would consider an 'Egyptian,' would have been of Semitic stock (ie, akin to an Israeli or an Arab).


----------



## Jabrosky

I'm with Mindfire on Egyptians being African, but I'm really damn tired of refuting the same assertions to the contrary over and over again, so I think we need to drop the topic here.


----------



## Steerpike

Jabrosky said:


> I'm with Mindfire on Egyptians being African, but I'm really damn tired of refuting the same assertions to the contrary over and over again, so I think we need to drop the topic here.



I think the evidence, genetic and contemporary, more strongly supports a Eurasian link, with the genetic distribution of Eurasian versus sub-Saharan African markers depending also on whether you are looking at upper or lower Egypt during that time period.


----------



## Shockley

Not trying to be rude here, but if you don't want to defend/argue the assertion then it shouldn't be made.


----------



## Mindfire

Shockley said:


> Not trying to be rude here, but if you don't want to defend/argue the assertion then it shouldn't be made.



What he means is that this little sidebar is starting to derail the topic and the argument might best be continued elsewhere. In a different thread perhaps.


----------



## Jabrosky

Shockley said:


> Not trying to be rude here, but if you don't want to defend/argue the assertion then it shouldn't be made.



Mindfire did a good job providing supporting data in his original mini-rant. You and Steerpike are the ones making baseless assertions.


----------



## Mindfire

Jabrosky said:


> Mindfire did a good job providing supporting data in his original mini-rant. You and Steerpike are the ones making baseless assertions.


Ahem. Let's not get hostile, please. And let's also not derail the topic anymore. Perhaps you could take this to a different thread?


----------



## grahamguitarman

Mindfire said:


> The Chinese do. Lol



Yeah I guess they would, I was thinking more in the western mind LOL


----------



## Shockley

If you guys would like, I'm willing to take this to Chit-Chat or somewhere.


----------



## Steerpike

Mindfire said:


> What he means is that this little sidebar is starting to derail the topic and the argument might best be continued elsewhere. In a different thread perhaps.



That's probably a good idea. A new thread on the topic would be interesting. Jabrosky can avoid it that way as well, as he's clearly getting a little too defensive about a topic he hasn't researched well. We shouldn't be derailing his thread on it. It is an interesting one, as are all topics about ancient cultures. If others are interested in continuing it in a new thread, I would be as well. It is also interesting to see how conflicts arise between scientific disciplines in these areas - up until fairly recently you didn't get much study that was more broad in terms of discipline.

*Actually a thread in research would be good. I'm interested in what others have found on the issue


----------



## Jabrosky

Steerpike said:


> That's probably a good idea. A new thread on the topic would be interesting. Jabrosky can avoid it that way as well, as he's clearly getting a little too defensive about a topic he hasn't researched well.



If you honestly think I have not spend nearly a whole decade looking into this specific subject and arguing with your ilk, you cannot imagine how wrong you are. If anything, it's precisely because I am weary of trying to educate obtuse ignoramuses and refuting the same misconceptions over and over again that I am reluctant to debate this topic for the hundredth time. It's comparable in productivity to conversing about evolutionary biology and geology with creationists.

But yes, a separate thread in either Chit-Chat or Research would work well.


----------



## Ivan

grahamguitarman said:


> Yeah I guess they would, I was thinking more in the western mind LOL


As late as the 1880's, China claimed Korea as a vassal, which was very confusing to westerners because there was no evidence of any kind to that effect.

EDIT: Jabrosky, whatever your past experiences, it doesn't make you or your argument look any better when you continually distract from the purpose of the thread to talk about your pet research, lump together and insult people who disagree with you, and then agree to talk about it elsewhere AFTER you've got your shot in. If you would calm down and discuss it within the norms and bounds of scholarly debate, you might find a more receptive audience.


----------



## Mindfire

Jabrosky said:


> If you honestly think I have not spend nearly a whole decade looking into this specific subject and arguing with your ilk, you cannot imagine how wrong you are. If anything, it's precisely because I am weary of trying to educate obtuse ignoramuses and refuting the same misconceptions over and over again that I am reluctant to debate this topic for the hundredth time. It's comparable in productivity to conversing about evolutionary biology and geology with creationists.
> 
> But yes, a separate thread in either Chit-Chat or Research would work well.



In any argument it's always best to give your opponent the benefit of the doubt. Assume that he is well-informed and competent. That way, you'll never be caught off guard. If you assume that your opposition is ignorant and allow that assumption to color your argument, you will only undermine your own position, regardless of how correct you are.

That said, yes. A thread in Chit-Chat or Research is EXACTLY what needs to happen.


----------



## Queshire

so why don't one of you two go do that instead of passively agressively attacking each other while saying it should happen.


----------



## Mindfire

Queshire said:


> so why don't one of you two go do that instead of passively agressively attacking each other while saying it should happen.



I assumed someone more emotionally invested in the topic would make it. But since no one seems to be doing that...

Aha! I stand corrected. All further discourse on the topic should be taken here:
http://mythicscribes.com/forums/research/3071-ancient-egyptians-cultural-origin-genetics-etc.html


----------



## Jabrosky

I apologize if I sounded inappropriately confrontational in my earlier posts.

Anyway, the thread has already been created here.


----------



## Steerpike

Ah...I missed most of the ad hominems before creating the new thread. Compelling, indeed!


----------



## Alex97

What about the Assyrians, Persians, Parthians, Babylonions... Don't seem to see many of these cultures apear very often.  It seems most fantasy is based on medieval Europe.  I would also like to some nomads such as the Sythians or Samartians.

Ancient Greece seems really popular when it comes down to historty and mythology although I haven't seen much original fantasy that is based off ancient Greece which is what I'm basing my novel on along with other cultures such as the Norse, the Persians, Romans and nomadic tribes. I think if I write it well a book with all those cultures would be quite good. 

I can also see what was said about the Samurai and Ninjas.  Sure there is fantasy about them but nothing really orignal as far as I know.  Just carbon copies most of them time.


----------



## Ophiucha

A few of my favourite eras and empires: Heian Japan, 'Islamic Renaissance', Ottoman Empire, Moorish Spain, and I'm desperately craving a fantasy book with a fantasy!counterpart Timbuktu.


----------



## Konstanz

Devor said:


> I think if you transplanted the culture of modern Belgium into a medieval setting, you might end up with a fun Shire-like tone.  I mean, really, who can resist fine beer and chocolate?  But they've a cool culture that goes deeper than that.  That's probably true for a lot of modern countries - think what you could do with the Amsterdam of Middle Earth?  Or see how close you can get a Fantasy city to modern LA.



I smiled when I read this. I'm Belgian and people tend to forget about us a lot even though we are a major player in Europe and we have the best beer and chocolate in the world. (Even though the Germans and the Swiss pretend otherwise, we win ALL the major competitions hah!)


----------



## Ravana

Shockley said:


> I have a real thing for Finnish and the Finno-Ugric peoples. I don't know how underrated it is since a lot of their nature has found its way into modern fantasy (Though usually filtered through Viking and Anglo-Saxon culture), but there's not a conscious recognition of it most of the time. I make a point of using Finnish names from time-to-time (Eino, for those of you who saw my showcase post, is a Finnish name) and I just really like their culture. It's kind of like the Viking/Nordic culture, but somehow (to me) more romantic and fantastic. Also, they have one of the best mythological systems I've ever encountered.



Wow–a kindred spirit. Didn't think there was anybody else out there. I've tried pushing these a couple of times in different threads… not just the Finns, but the entire set spread out over northern Russia. (Plus the Estonians–essentially little different from the Finns–and the Hungarians, who are different from everybody, courtesy of borrowing from everybody.)

My other favorite candidates for "underappreciated" are, unfortunately, not recognized mostly because of the dearth of solid data on them. Which either makes them unsuited, or _amazingly_ suited, for fantasy writers to draw inspiration from. 

One is the Indus Valley Culture–which was truly massive, but which has left us little beyond some very impressive ruins and a mysterious may-or-may-not-be-writing system. (I could argue that one either direction.) You really need to take a look at the extent of their cities, both in number and in size, and then to take a look at the time period involved, to truly begin to grasp what we're missing here. 

The other is whoever built Ã‡atalhÃ¶yÃ¼k–its modern name: we haven't a clue what they called it, nor probably ever will. It's a slightly different set of numbers that will make you drop your teeth there.…


----------



## Shockley

Always great to encounter another Finn lover. I'd just like to say that my interest (and my area of study in college, although expanded to include northern Europe in general, especially British history) is the Baltic region, ranging from Finns ans Swedes to Danes and Russians and all peoples of that area. For being so closely related via trade, politics, etc., it's amazing the variety of culture they developed. I just love that I can start with someone like Thor and find kindred spirits all the way to Perun, but also find unique elements such as Ilmater, Kosice the Deathless, etc.


----------



## Steerpike

My short story _Selkie_ is tentatively set in Finland, though I'm not sure whether the selkie myths extend that far east. Do either of you know?


----------



## Shockley

There's a Swedish version of the story, so it seems likely that there'd be a Finnish counterpart (if only adapted from the Swedes during the prolonged occupation of that country).


----------



## Steerpike

Thanks, Shockley. I thought about setting it in the Faroe islands, just to get it out further west where I know the tales were told, but it sounds like I won't have to do that!


----------



## Shockley

No problem. While the Selkie myth is particularly northern European, the idea of someone who can change into an animal is a fairly universal trope, as is the act of capturing them by taking their skins. I'll link to wikipedia articles of one (my favorite) example. 

Hagoromo (play) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 The basic story behind the kelpie (which is really just a gussied up Swan Maiden motif) is recognized as one of the core fairy tales.


----------



## studentofrhythm

Turkestan!  Ah, the romance of the Silk road: caravans of heavy-laden Bactrian camels wending their way across harsh deserts, over high mountain passes, to cities teeming with fine crafts and culture: Ashgabat, Bukhara, Samarkand.  Apricot orchards in bloom, mulberries and silk weavers, stylish striped robes and fun musical instruments like dutars and doyras.  Rice pilaf and mutton, flat bread, yogurt . . .

Monasteries with libraries burgeoning with texts in twenty languages.  Obscure heretical sects flourishing in safety from their persecutors.  Bizarre syncretism.

More of this kind of stuff, please!


----------



## Aravelle

I concur.

I take elements of japanese culture in my story, but never even thought of samurais or ninjas...ew...


----------



## Aravelle

Indian culture [not Native American] is insanely underrated in fantasy. I feel Sumerian deserves more love too.


----------



## studentofrhythm

Dude!  India has more fabulous stories than you can shake a stick at!

When I was a teenager I had a dream that I was a peasant in a Sumerian-esque civilization and suddenly became the ruler of my city through some lottery (this was before I'd even heard of J.L. Borges).  I haven't done anything with it, so here, someone, have a free idea . . .


----------



## Steerpike

The Sumerians were created by the Annunaki. The came to earth to earth from Nibiru to exploit our mineral resources, and then genetically engineered modern humans from earlier hominids.

Don't take my word for it, just read Zecharia Sitchin


----------



## Caliburn

Yeah Sumerian and early Mesopotamian stuff is interesting. Been reading up on it lately.

Also pre-Islamic Persian empires like the Sassanids.

And I've always thought Songhai-style paladins make for a cool alternative to the traditional European knight.


----------



## Aravelle

Caliburn said:


> Yeah Sumerian and early Mesopotamian stuff is interesting. Been reading up on it lately.
> 
> Also pre-Islamic Persian empires like the Sassanids.
> 
> And I've always thought Songhai-style paladins make for a cool alternative to the traditional European knight.



I've never even heard of the Sassanids... *suddenly feels inadequate*


----------



## Caliburn

Only found out about 'em meself last week! Don't be disheartened


----------



## Aravelle

Okay, thanks. >.<


----------



## Telcontar

Caliburn said:


> Yeah Sumerian and early Mesopotamian stuff is interesting. Been reading up on it lately.
> 
> Also pre-Islamic Persian empires like the Sassanids.
> 
> And I've always thought Songhai-style paladins make for a cool alternative to the traditional European knight.



I would love it if you could elaborate on "Songhai-style paladins." I know a fair deal about the Songhai empire, but never heard of any kind of paladin. Have any reading material you could direct me to?


----------



## Caliburn

Hey good question Telcontar. To clarify, I'm pretty sure there weren't ever Songhai "paladins" as such, however in pictures I have seen their swords look similar to those used by the Christian knights--curiously European--and they followed an Islamic religion that promoted religious crusades much like the Christian crusades to the holy land. 

Pictures like this one: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2706/4484475839_a577c71ce7.jpg make a strong impression on me in terms of what an African/Islamic-styled fantasy paladin might look like. Civilisation 5 was the first I'd heard of them.

EDIT: Don't quote me on any of the facts esp. regarding their Islamic religion (I just read something that said 97% of Songhai never converted to Islam).


----------



## Telcontar

I don't know about the populace as a whole, but Songhai's most famous leaders were very devoutly Muslim. I also recall that they had enviable freedom of religion.

I remember seeing the graphic in Civ 5 of the sword Askia carries, and thinking it was wrong. Who knows, though - perhaps they really did use that kind of blade. I'll have to look into it.

Muslim's certainly did have their version of holy warriors, though - the Ghazi.


----------



## Chekaman

Some ideas

Cathage-Everyone knows about Rome, but  few know about Carthage.
Zulus
Scottish Clans
Native Americans
Aztecs


----------



## Balam Ka'ana

I'm currently working on what I plan to be a series of stories based on Mayan culture and mythology. The Popol Vuh (the Mayan creation bible) lreads. like an acid trip. I'm having a bit of trouble reigning in some of the absurdity to make the folklore more palatable. Also the number of gods in their pantheon can be overwhelming you see multiple deities governing the same aspect or idea. It isn't always clear what a deity's purpose is.


----------



## deepikasd

One of the most underrated cultures I think are definitely the Aboriginal tribes of Australia. Not only is their mythology and way of thinking in life so different from the western concept that we have and practice, but their way of living is also very different. They are very earth-based and live taking care of the earth and paying respect to it.

They are a culture based on oral tradition (their past/history/lifestyle is transmitted to the next generation orally). They also have this concept of Dreamtime/Dreaming in which the past and the present are sort of both the same thing. (I can't really explain this concept really well. According to a documentary I once watched, Dreaming is based on events that occurred during the period of creation but at the same time is happening in the present.) They also have the songlines which, from what I understand, is songs that "map" out the lay of the land. People who follow the words of the song can find water, sacred sites, other groups, etc. I also love how they always ask permission of the land before they do things. In the documentary (sorry I can't remember what the name was; it's about myths and the modern world) I noticed that there had this one scenario that showed this one tribe covered in blueish paint. Since the natives are dark-skinned this was very striking. They also paint themselves in reddish mud in some ceremonies. And don't forget the walkabout. Also, there is a varied distinction in those of the present. Some have been "Christian-ized" (they were basically "forced" by early settlers/Christians to renounce their "heathen" ways; the children were sort of brain-washed into a more Westernized thinking). Then there are those who stick completely to the old ways, including the dress-code, etc. Others then mix the Western culture with the old way of life (ex. they use cars instead of traveling on foot and wear what we consider "normal" clothing).

Also, Eastern Indian culture. I think people have this concept that when you are Indian, you are a Hindu. That is a very biased and wrong concept. Indian culture is really unique because it is a culture mixed with different types of religions. Not a lot of people talk about it, but culture is really defined on religion and not the other way around. People tend to take things from religion and mix it in with their daily lives. Therefore, you have this really crazy mix of culture in India. Let's take a small city for example. You can have Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists (though they are relatively few), practitioners of Zoroastrianism, etc., all living side by side. Then there is a mix of nationality: South Indians, North Indians, Nepalese, Chinese, and other foreigners. This huge mix can make this small city totally different from the city down the road just because how people celebrate their religions, what they eat, what they wear will all vary on the other individuals in town. Since there is such a variety of religions and nationalities, you will end up with a town that is unlike any other.

Another culture underrated is those on the Amazonian river. I forget the name of the tribe, but there is one that lives their lives basically for their gods. They believe that in their ceremonies, their gods actually come and visit with them taking on a human form. To become more receptive to their gods, they actually take hallucinating "drugs" (more like a "herbal" drink) that helps them to "see" their gods. However, most of the other aspects of their lives are partially modernized like cookware and clothing.


----------



## Ophiucha

On a linguistic note, there is an Aboriginal Australian tribe which doesn't have words for 'left' or 'right', and instead they always use 'east' and 'west'. They have a far superior internal compass than any other group in the world, basically. I feel like you could adapt something similar into a conlanguage, maybe not (just?) for direction but for something magical. Something we can't distinguish between because of the limits of our language, but your characters could.


----------



## Aravelle

Another underrated culture and mythology? Hawaiian.


----------



## Telcontar

Historical Hawaiians are one of the groups I actually have looked into. Thoroughly fascinating people, though sadly knowledge of them before the arrival of European explorers is very limited.


----------



## King Raven Stark

I've been looking up lost civilizations that vanished during the ancient earth era like the Dravidians, Aryans, and Harrapans


----------



## Jabrosky

Sorry for the necro, but I didn't want to create a whole new thread around a small rant of mine.

Is anyone here interested in pre-Christian, pre-medieval Northern Europe? I'm talking the Celtic, Germanic, and other "tribal" peoples whom the Greeks and Romans derogated as "barbarians". Honestly, whenever I world-build using Counterpart Cultures, I usually base my Northern European analogues on the pre-Christian cultures rather than the standard Middle Ages.


----------



## ShortHair

Always wanted to look into pre-Columbian cultures of Middle and South America. They've just re-opened a dig near Ayacucho in Peru.

Saw a piece on History Channel recently on lost civilizations. There's a site in southeast Turkey that doesn't belong to any known civilization, and it's thousands of years older than Stonehenge. It's a certainty that there were cultures of which we haven't found a trace--or if we did, we didn't know what it signified. They could have lived anywhere, reached any technological level, and then killed themselves off--the way we "modern" people tend to do.

One theory holds that the Black Sea was dry at one time. Something happened, possibly rising sea levels, and the people living there were inundated. The few survivors would pass down the widespread myth of the Deluge. There's a similar trope in Randall Garrett's Gandalara books.

There are carvings in the Sahara Desert that hint at a culture there before it became desert. Can anyone say for sure that all the deserts in the world are natural?

Yes, I shouldn't get archaeological theories from TV. I don't have time to go to the library or sift through all the BS on the Internet.

Other suggestions. Mongols as the good guys. Tibet? I've never heard of anything but _Lost Horizon_ that even tried. The early Christian and proto-Christian sects who got weeded out by the early Roman church. There's a sect in Ethiopia that may have the real Ark of the Covenant.


----------



## Steerpike

Shorthair, read _1491,_ by Charles Mann.


----------



## Benjamin Clayborne

Jabrosky said:


> Sorry for the necro, but I didn't want to create a whole new thread around a small rant of mine.
> 
> Is anyone here interested in pre-Christian, pre-medieval Northern Europe? I'm talking the Celtic, Germanic, and other "tribal" peoples whom the Greeks and Romans derogated as "barbarians". Honestly, whenever I world-build using Counterpart Cultures, I usually base my Northern European analogues on the pre-Christian cultures rather than the standard Middle Ages.



I am. I've been thinking about basing my next work's main culture on them. The only problem is, I hate doing research.


----------



## Ireth

I'm very interested in the Celtic myths; the backstory of my vampire novel is heavily steeped in Celtic lore and mythological beings, and my Fae duology has more of the same.


----------



## Chekaman

I'm interested.


----------



## Helleaven

There are many underrated cultures in the world. Most of them unfortunately have been forgotten.

For example, I just admire the ruins of Angkor Wat but I don't have any idea who built them or what kind of a culture they had. 

For me, one of the most neglected side of the history is Turkic tribes. They were mostly nomadic people and it might look like they had no life except fighting and hunting. But they had mythical stories which is so underrated that even the Turkish people doesn't know anything about them. Pre-Islamic Turkic history reaches far behind anyone can imagine. From Hungary to Bulgaria, from Scythian to Avar Empire, from Turkestan to Uighurs, from Azerbaijani to Seljukians, from Gokturks to Great Hun Empire... Ottoman Empire is another example, but they had many resemblances to other Islamic cultures. I admit that it's kind of annoying to feel like ones culture is left out as if it had never existed.


----------



## D. Gray Warrior

I have never seen a Mali Empire culture or Aboriginals.


----------



## WooHooMan

I like 1960's/70's African American culture.  In order to really get my interest, a culture needs a minimum requirement of funk.  I'm doing a thing with a fantasy culture based on this.

I think most contemporary cultures and subcultures are underrated.  I guess most fantasy guys are more backwards thinking.


----------



## Waz

Like Tolkien, I'm interested in the Poetic Eddas and the Norse cultures in the time that Beowulf was compiled. That transition phase is an intriguing blend of old, warlike Vikings and new, morally-focused Christians. 

"I cleaved his head clean off, praise the Lord above."


----------



## Jabrosky

WooHooMan said:


> I like 1960's/70's African American culture.  In order to really get my interest, a culture needs a minimum requirement of funk.  I'm doing a thing with a fantasy culture based on this.
> 
> I think most contemporary cultures and subcultures are underrated.  I guess most fantasy guys are more backwards thinking.


For my part, I think a hybrid of modern Afro-Diasporan and ancient/pre-colonial African cultures would make for a fun mix. Problem is that I'm not terribly familiar with modern Diasporan culture beyond having listened to some hip-hop and R&B. I have plenty of Diasporan friends online, but we don't talk about modern-day stuff so much.


----------



## skip.knox

I suppose one might argue about what constitutes a "culture" but I'll nominate medieval southwestern France / northeastern Spain. Navarre, for those who know the region. It was a really interesting blend of peoples, including Basques. The Cathar heresy was born there.

Another: the Waldensians in Savoy. Medieval Wales. Brittany. The Hussites. I've always been interested in those little pockets of Germans in eastern Europe ... Transylvanian Saxons, anyone?

And that's just the Middle Ages. It's tougher to look at more ancient peoples because our sources don't let us look very deeply into their cultures. A few myths, some artifacts, some philological sluething, but mostly we come away with more questions than answers. The Etruscans are a good example.


----------



## WooHooMan

Jabrosky said:


> For my part, I think a hybrid of modern Afro-Diasporan and ancient/pre-colonial African cultures would make for a fun mix.



That is interesting.  Like a juxtaposition between modern and ancient culture.
See, this is what fantasy is all about: exploring cultures that never existed in reality.  At least, that's if you ask me.

Also, I've been looking into New Age depictions of Atlantis for inspiration.  Does that count?  Hypothetical Atlantian culture?  We could use some more of that.  I want to see some fantasy settings that look like they belong on a Prog Rock album cover.


----------



## Gurkhal

I think the entire Near East has been seriously underrated despite the vast research and available information on it.


----------



## SM-Dreamer

Gurkhal said:


> I think the entire Near East has been seriously underrated despite the vast research and available information on it.



I actually wish my library had more information on this region and the history; half the stuff I find is modern, which I don't want. But I certainly like learning about ancient and classical times in that region.


----------



## skip.knox

There is a *ton* of books on medieval Islam. Try searching at a university library; that will give you a bibliography you can take to your interlibrary loan.


----------



## Gurkhal

SM-Dreamer said:


> I actually wish my library had more information on this region and the history; half the stuff I find is modern, which I don't want. But I certainly like learning about ancient and classical times in that region.



If you search on "ancient Near East" or "Mesopotamia" I can promise that you will find what you seek. Lots of good books on the subject and stuff.


----------



## marcdangerousworlds

The cultures of South East Asia are particularly rich during the 'middle age' period in which most fantasy worlds are set. The Khmer empire is one I know a little bit about having been lucky to go there a couple of times. During the 12c it's capital is thought to have been, at that time, the largest, most populous city on the planet, and it's culture and traditions very much in contrast to those in Europe. It's easy to think of them as primitive and exotic but during those times all these 'alternative empires' had fully functioning administrations with people no doubt employed in the mundane jobs; census collectors, pest control, taxation, water transportation, sewage, and probably harboured most of the hopes and fears we do today.


----------



## Zāl Dastān

The pre-Roman Iberians are a favorite of mine. I also wonder why so little is done with the distinctive, yet efficient imperial models of nations like Venice or the Incas. It's especially tragic how merchant republics so rarely take center stage.

Also, pretty much anyone in Africa before the Europeans colonized it. It's a wonder that even today so little is done with groups like the Mali Empire or Axum/Ethiopia. Even Arab colonization of East and North Africa would be refreshing.


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## X Equestris

I'd say Carthage inspired cultures are pretty rare.  Which is kind of surprising considering that it was the only non-Italian power to pose a serious threat to Rome until the empire was in deep decline.

Someone else mentioned Native Americans earlier, and I have to agree.  There is a lot of potential there that is often overlooked.


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## hannibal41

In my world, i have used Amharic (ethiopian empire), mixed with generic dwarf culture to create a historical empire of mine. A rival empire was fairly indian, but had influences of Aztec in it, but the people have become more tribal and barbaric after the collapse of their empire.


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## Surad

I didn't read much of this thread yet, so I don't know if what I'm going to write has been done to death or not. 

One thing about cultures that are underrepresented in fantasy are Native American, but not native North American, I'm referring specifically to Aztec/Mayan/Olmec/Central American cultures. In my novel, I'm trying to create a culture that has some blend of Aztec culture and Southeast Asian culture. That's the second thing. When Asian culture is mentioned in fantasy, they almost always take from Japanese sources, or maybe Chinese if you're having a good day, but for some reason, Thai and Malayan cultures are almost completely neglected. I haven't done that much research on Malayan culture, but I want to incorporate some elements of it into the story, even if the time I spend in the novel isn't that much in the actual culture.


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## D. Gray Warrior

Cultures I would like to see:

Spain
Moorish Empire
Italy
Byzantium
Aleutian
Masai
Mongols
Magyars


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## Jabrosky

D. Gray Warrior said:


> Masai


You might like Charles R. Saunders's _Imaro_ books, especially the first one's Act One (there are four books in all). The title character is raised within a society closely based on the Maasai, right down to sharing some of the cultural vocabulary. They're some of my personal favorites within the fantasy genre.


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## K.S. Crooks

The Mayans have a wonderful history to use for inspiration or the Polynesians who populated Samoa, Hawaii and several other islands during their ocean explorations.


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## Ashur-is-King

Gurkhal said:


> I think the entire Near East has been seriously underrated despite the vast research and available information on it.



YES, this is so true! My own WIP takes place in a setting inspired by the Iron Age in the Near East. It is a very great deal of fun!


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## Mythopoet

I don't think "underrated" or "overrated" has much to do with it.

First, you have to realize that's its only very recently in the history of fantasy, since the rise of the internet and the infinity of information at our fingertips, that it has become easy to research any culture in the world. Before the internet, researching most of the world's cultures would require more effort and resources than the average genre writer has. This is likely one reason why most writers fell back on using the familiar or often the cultures that they had knowledge of due to college studies or day jobs. For instance, Tolkien's Rohirric culture is so vivid because he was an expert in Anglo Saxon language and literature.

Second, which cultures one is influenced and inspired by is a highly individual thing. One cannot just say to a writer "this culture is underrated, you should write about it" if the writer feels no interest or inspiration from the culture. And which culture interests you is simply a result of personal taste. For instance, I prefer Japanese culture to Chinese or Korean culture, even though they all have a lot in common, because the Japanese language and names are to me the most aesthetically pleasing and also because I find the geography and landscape of Japan stirs my inner sense of beauty the most. 

I think there is already a lot more variety than there used to be in fantasy cultures and I feel sure that the genre will continue to expand horizons. Partly because of the information age we live in and partly because so many writers are freer than ever from artificial constraints on their writing.


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## seth.omorrow

The Basque people of southern France and northern Spain.


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