# Celestial Bodies



## Queshire (Jul 21, 2012)

So in my story one of the major religions / factions is the Celestial Pantheon, Gods of the Sun, Moon, Planets, and Stars. This isn't exactly a new idea, but I want to get you guy's opinions on severl things;

1) Traditionally, there's a Sun God and a Moon Goddess. What do you think of these gender roles? Do you think they're traditional for a reason, or would you like to see somebody make a Moon God and a Sun Goddess for once?

2) What about other planets in your solar system? Do you think it's better to go with the same planets as in real life for simplicity's sake, make up new planets for your setting with corresponding new gods, or just not mention other planets?

3) Ditto with constellations, same, different, or unimportant?

4) In such a pantheon, should there be a god for whatever planet the story is on? And in either case, what do you think that god/planet's role in the pantheon be?

I look forward to your opinions.

(NOTE: In my setting, the gods are very much real and active, they or their servants can be physically summoned by their priests and priestesses with the stronger the god/angel/spirit the harder they are to summon, and while the Celestial Pantheon is currently the most famous/powerful pantheon, there ARE plenty of other Pantheons/Gods in the world)


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## shangrila (Jul 21, 2012)

1. I don't like any kind of gender stereotype, so go crazy. Also, I've seen what you're suggesting done before. In Dark Souls, the moon god is a guy (androgynous, but still a guy) although apparently because he was born so close to the moon, his father raised him as a daughter. I have no idea how that works, and maybe it's a way of being traditional and different at the same time.

2. Not sure about this one. Would they serve a purpose in your story? Would there be a reason for the people to worship a god from another planet, and would those gods have any reason to interfer in the worlds of the others? To be on the safe side I probably wouldn't mention it at all but, if you did, I'd make up new planets.

3. I like the idea of constellations better than the other planets. Constellation gods seem, to me, like they could be pseudo overlords, which would give them a good reason to meddle in the affairs of the "lesser" gods. I would probably base them on real life examples but call them something different. Having a hunter constellation called Orion, for example, would probably stick out in a fantasy story.

4. I think so, it makes sense for the world to have a guardian angel, so to speak. Although, in the hierarchy, I'd have them above the Moon/Sun gods but below the Star ones. Their role could be to watch over the planet, to keep balance on it, to protect the environment...I'm not entirely sure, there's a ton of possibilities.


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## Queshire (Jul 21, 2012)

Hrm, just thought I'd mention, the heirarchy would go Sun>Moon>Planets>Stars


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## Addison (Jul 21, 2012)

1) I'm not so crazy about the gender stereotypes either. It's your story do what you want. People want something new and different. 

2) That's really up to you. Do you have ideas of planet names, appearance, and their God/Goddess already? If so then go ahead with it. If not then don't. Let it come naturally.

3) I'm with Shangrila about the constellations. 

4) You mean how our Earth has God? How he's only here and then there's Mars with....I forget who. Isn't it the Roman version of Athena or someone? If that's what you mean then yes. As Shangrila said this God would be at the very top of the Hierarchy.


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## Shockley (Jul 21, 2012)

There is no real gender stereotype as to what gender the moon/sun divinities are, as far as I'm concerned. While the Greeks/Romans definitely followed the idea of a moon goddess (Selene/Luna) and a sun god (Helios/Sol Invictus), that ceases to hold true outside of that. Note that, for my definitions, I'm using the term to apply only to the physical aspect of the sun/moon, and not gods associated with the moon/sun (which is why, for instance, I didn't mention Apollo or Artemis in the above break-down).

 The Egyptians saw the moon as a male god, Iah. The sun was Ra/Horus/Amun/Amun-Ra/Ra-Horakhty/etc., all male. The Japanese had a sun goddess (Amaterasu) and a moon god (Tsukoyomi).

 Make it your own thing, and don't worry about traditions or even breaking said traditions.


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## shangrila (Jul 22, 2012)

Queshire said:


> Hrm, just thought I'd mention, the heirarchy would go Sun>Moon>Planets>Stars


Is there a reason for this? It seems like a weird ordering


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## Saigonnus (Jul 22, 2012)

Just a thought, having an array of moons instead of just one could allow you more gods/goddesses. I also agree with Shangrila with the order; seems a bit off to me. "the sun is the prime god/goddess, the planets his/her royal court, the moon(s) are servants and the stars beyond are merely spectators to the feast."


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## Queshire (Jul 22, 2012)

Order from most unique to most common, there's 1 sun, 1 moon, a handful of planets, and a bunch of stars. 'Course it doesn't help that this idea is inspired by MLP where there's a sun princess and a moon princess.


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## ThinkerX (Jul 22, 2012)

As part of the basic world building bit - and in keeping with ye olde time mythology - I included some celestial bodies.

My 'second world' boasts two moons, commonly thought of as 'brother' and 'sister'.  Some cultures see the brother as evil and the sister as good.

Another object in the same system as the second world is a large ringed gas giant - the next world out.  Because of the  inclination of its axis, it sometimes appears to resemble a distant 'eye', and that is exactly how it is thought of mythologically - the eye of a distant God, watching from afar.

A third object in that system is a much smaller gas giant, orbiting well past the Eye.  The sky watchers know it is a planet because of its movement, but it is on the faint side, not bright at all.  Mythologically, it is associated with dark secrets.

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The main world in the main solar system boasts only a single large moon, much like earth.  Some cultures identify it as male, others as female.

Orbiting inward from the main world is a double planet, appearing in the sky as two close set stars, one red, one white. In modern terms, one is roughly comparable to Venus, and the other to Mars.  In the old mythologies they were identified as the deities of Love and War - two sides of the same coin.

Of much greater concern to the inhabitants of the primary world is the so called 'Demon Star', an object with a highly erratic orbit which appears at rare intervals in the night sky, but is otherwise absent.  Magic and mayhem come to the primary world while the Demon Star is above: old magics work erratically, existing mages often find their powers enhanced, and the number of those born with magical ability spikes.  Strange substances appear in odd locations. People vanish, people go mad.  Fortunately, it is rare for the Demon Star to appear more than once a century or so.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jul 22, 2012)

Queshire said:


> Order from most unique to most common, there's 1 sun, 1 moon, a handful of planets, and a bunch of stars. 'Course it doesn't help that this idea is inspired by MLP where there's a sun princess and a moon princess.



It also orders by brightness. The sun is by far the brightest object in the sky, then the moon (when it's waxing/full, anyway), then the planets, then stars.


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## psychotick (Jul 22, 2012)

Hi,

Not too sure about the gender issue of the sun and moon. The moon is often seen as female because she bathes the world in gentle light, while the sun is usually male because he is the brightest thing in the sky, i.e. the king.

As to the names of the planets, surely that all comes down to size and distance. People have to be able see the planets with their naked eye before they can give them names etc.

As for the moons, yes, I like that. If this world has lots of moons, then yes all of them could have gods associated with them. And if they shine different colours, perhaps because of the geology or the light falling on them at different times, it could add to their interesting mythology. Only thing I would say is that too many big moons (like ours) too close in, would increase the likelyhood of them smashing into each other, and perhaps forming a ring structure, not to mention showers of meteorites. Lets hope that none of them are big enough to be world killers.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Ireth (Jul 23, 2012)

Re: the gender issue -- it's also possible that the moon is associated with femininity because of the 28-day phase cycle and the way it seems to correspond with the 28-day menstrual cycle of women. Just a thought. I like the idea of reversing the traditional gender roles, as Tolkien did with Arien and Tilion (guardians of the Sun and Moon, respectively). The Two Trees, from which the sun and moon were made, were identified according to age and gender: Telperion, the older, is male, while Laurelin, the younger, is female.


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## Queshire (Jul 23, 2012)

I'm decidedly grumpy and really shouldn't post in this state but yeah, the whole Moon being a chick thing most often comes from the fact that both have cycles. Sorry, I thought that was obvious.


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## J.P. Reedman (Jul 24, 2012)

In Norse myth it was reversed--the moon is masculine and the sun feminine. To the Basques, sun and moon were both female! The moon was often thought of as female probably because of its cycle, but it wasn't necessarily always a benign nurturing influence...remember that the word 'lunatic' also comes from moon. It was thought it could make you mad. Some British stone circles have lunar alignments as well as solar, and there might be a connection betwen the whiteness of the moon and the bones of the dead; so essentially the moon may have been some kind of Guardian of the dead/spirits to these ancient people.


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## Ophiucha (Jul 24, 2012)

1) Well, if I was going to make a guess as to why the moon was associated with a goddess, it'd begin and end with another 'M' word relating to 'cycles'. I don't know if that's a good reason to stick with a gender role in your pantheon. There's no guarantee that elves menstruate in the same way as human women, or that they menstruate at all (after all, they are fae, and fae are often more like insects than mammals). And in a world of werewolves, I imagine the moon would be more strongly associated with the wolf - likely a male, since alphas are nearly exclusively male in pack dynamics (rare cases notwithstanding). Also, feminism and all that. 

 2/3) If it isn't Earth, then I don't suppose it should have the same planets in its solar system. Whether or not they are important is rather up to you and your story. There are stories where it's important, and there are many, _many_ stories where it is not. Since you are asking at all, I assume you find it to be at least a little important. And I don't know that the planets necessarily should be named after gods by default - just because _we _did it, doesn't mean that should be universal - but certainly having a planet called "Pluto" without anything else called "Pluto" in their world is a bit strange. And gods are easy, if nothing else.

 4) "Mother Earth" is the common archetype, no? Gaia, Terra, whatever you care to call her. She's seen in a lot of myths, her name is often used interchangeably with the name of the planet, and she's near universally the mother of all of the other gods, or at least the wife of the 'main' god. As a rule, 'Earth' or the fantasy equivalent is the centre of life. Unless your story also has aliens, it tends to make a bit of sense in a theological sort of way. Earth is the origin of life, so 'Earth', the deity, should be the origin of life as well. Also, feminism and all that. I seem to recall an Egyptian origin story that involved a male god having - what's the TV Tropes term? - "A Date with Rosie Palms" to, ah, _birth _the world, in a way.


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## Zero Angel (Jul 26, 2012)

Queshire said:


> 1) Traditionally, there's a Sun God and a Moon Goddess. What do you think of these gender roles? Do you think they're traditional for a reason, or would you like to see somebody make a Moon God and a Sun Goddess for once?



In my novel both the sun and moon deities are female...although they are more associated with those celestial bodies than actual manifestations of them. My primary earth deity is depicted as male, but is more a force of nature than a normal personified god.



Queshire said:


> 2) What about other planets in your solar system? Do you think it's better to go with the same planets as in real life for simplicity's sake, make up new planets for your setting with corresponding new gods, or just not mention other planets?


If your universe is based on ours, it would be strange for the creatures to not know at least the inner few that are visible with the naked eye. I would not call them the same thing, but that is a personal preference. In my novel, all of the present is their past, so the planets all have different names by now (plus I have pocket universes that have been folded to the main one that pops whatever I want into it such as new moons or planets...dark matter/energy anyone?). 



Queshire said:


> 3) Ditto with constellations, same, different, or unimportant?


Again, I would not bother with these as the same as in real life, but I also disagree with myself in my novel. I have one character named Arcturus which is the personification (or bear-ification) of the North Star. It's really up to what you want to do.



Queshire said:


> 4) In such a pantheon, should there be a god for whatever planet the story is on? And in either case, what do you think that god/planet's role in the pantheon be?


Standard earth god/goddess domains are the harvest and the seasons, but you can do whatever you want with it. Does it make sense to have one? I don't bother with any deities representing other planets or celestial bodies other than the ones I mentioned previously (sun, moon, north star and earth), but only the sun and moon goddesses are in the hume pantheon. Arcturus is in a different race's pantheon entirely as their chief deity while the Earth god is in the dwarven pantheon. 



Ophiucha said:


> And in a world of werewolves, I imagine the moon would be more strongly associated with the wolf - likely a male, since alphas are nearly exclusively male in pack dynamics (rare cases notwithstanding). Also, feminism and all that.


Most packs have an alpha male and female from my research into this subject. 



Anyway, that's my take on this, but everyone's world is different. Do what feels natural, and don't force it.


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## Ophiucha (Jul 26, 2012)

I think it depends on the species. I know a lot of wild dogs (not necessarily wolves) have both - but there are definitely a few which only have an alpha male. And their role in the pack varies. At least a few species have the alpha female as just sort of the most-bred female instead of the dominant female - though that's usually true of the male in that pack, too - and I'm sure something, it might be a primate instead of a dog (but hey, _were_wolves would be halfway between the two), has alpha females as just "the alpha male's mate".


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## Zero Angel (Jul 27, 2012)

That's interesting Ophiucha.

In my research the alpha pair are almost always mated pairs, and the alpha male prevents the beta males from mating, but I have read that it varies from pack to pack which of the pair is the super-alpha uber-pack leader thingy.

I love werewolves. In my stories most of the very first created werewolves were able to travel to the moon (which was in the process of forming its final shape at the time) and have lived as super-powerful man-beasts ever since.


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