# I believe I am broken, I need your help to prove otherwise



## Leif Notae (Oct 27, 2012)

All right, I am turning to you because I believe I am broken.

I think fantasy is dead in its current form. I've read things from twenty years ago, and I've read things published recently. Aside from the amazing exceptions (Throne of the Crescent Moon), current fantasy is bloated and boring. 

That being said, I need your help. I've poked at the current "masters" (Martin, Sanderson, Abercrombie, etc.) and was left disinterested to say the least, but there must be a treasure trove of good out there somewhere in the genre.

So, what would you recommend to me? What can I read to have some faith restored for fantasy? Hell, just reading in general, whatever comes to mind.

If it's a guilty pleasure, send me a PM. I won't divulge what it is, just help me out here.


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## Sparkie (Oct 27, 2012)

Not sure if this will 'restore your faith in fantasy,' but not long ago I read Shadowbridge by Gregory Frost.  It's different, but perhaps not great.

Also, keep in mind that reading books that aren't great can actually help your writing.  You'll learn what not to do


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## Weaver (Oct 27, 2012)

My own tastes in fantasy often don't match the current trends, either.  I'm prepared to wait it out, until the trends change again - they always do.

What I'd recomment to you depands on what your own tastes are.  What do you mean by "bloated and boring"?  Do you prefer novels that are short and written in a terse, non-wordy style?  Do you want something that is neither traditional epic fantasy set in a pseudo-medieval world nor standard urban fantasy populated with shapeshifters and the fashionably undead?


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## Feo Takahari (Oct 27, 2012)

I don't believe in American fantasy, either--at least, not in its modern form. That's why I read webcomics, fanfiction, and other independent sources of the fantastical, as well as a heaping helping of hard science fiction. (I also read manga, but I'm not sure I'd recommend that--Japanese cultural assumptions can be infuriating to put up with, particularly in regard to the portrayal of women.)


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## Mindfire (Oct 27, 2012)

Feo Takahari said:


> I don't believe in American fantasy, either--at least, not in its modern form. That's why I read webcomics, fanfiction, and other independent sources of the fantastical, as well as a heaping helping of hard science fiction. (I also read manga, but I'm not sure I'd recommend that--Japanese cultural assumptions can be infuriating to put up with, particularly in regard to the portrayal of women.)



What cultural assumptions, exactly?


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## yachtcaptcolby (Oct 27, 2012)

Try Neil Gaiman. He's not traditional fantasy by any means, but his work with American Gods, Anansi Boys, and Neverwhere takes a lot of fantasy ideas and wraps them in unique packages. 

I also really enjoyed Terry Brooks' Genesis of Shannara trilogy, which depicts the transition of our own world into the Shannara fantasy world he's written for decades. I've found him to be very hit-or-miss, but that trilogy was fantastic.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Oct 27, 2012)

Do you think you maybe just need to turn away from fantasy for a while?  If you turn to other genre's I can't help feeling you will find some link, some connection between that genre and fantasy, and enjoy that.  Perhaps it's worth a try?


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## Sheriff Woody (Oct 27, 2012)

Take a break and enjoy other genres or mediums. If fantasy is your true passion, you will return to it. If not, you will find your true passion, whatever and wherever it may be.


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## Philip Overby (Oct 27, 2012)

I hate to be the guy that says "It's hard to recommend something without knowing your tastes," but it's hard to recommend something without knowing your tastes.  I personally think there's a wealth of awesome fantasy out there right now, but I like those people you listed as not liking.  If you like stuff similar to Throne of the Crescent Moon, then seek out writers who are similar.  Seems like you like sword and sorcery, if you like that, so why not go back and read some of the "old masters."  Howard, Lieber, etc.  I'm reading Swords and Deviltry now and it's pretty weird for traditional fantasy.  

I'd also recommend (as others have said) if you hate a lot of current fantasy, go read something else.  There are thousands of awesome books out there.  Go to a library and just pick something that looks cool.


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## ThinkerX (Oct 27, 2012)

> I think fantasy is dead in its current form. I've read things from twenty years ago, and I've read things published recently. Aside from the amazing exceptions (Throne of the Crescent Moon), current fantasy is bloated and boring.



Almost the same for me.  Although, there are a few current authors whose works I deem interesting, and some of what I read is from...well...forty or more years ago.  To me, a great deal of the contempory fantasy 'reads flat' so to speak.

I suspect part of this has to do with the old line authors being *storytellers* compared with at least some present day authors who...'write what sells'...I guess would be one way of putting it. Plus, a lot of the newer authors seem to lack the...creativity and imagination of some of the older ones.



> That being said, I need your help. I've poked at the current "masters" (Martin, Sanderson, Abercrombie, etc.) and was left disinterested to say the least, but there must be a treasure trove of good out there somewhere in the genre.



Martin, in my view is dang good.  Sanderson is passable.

Overall, though, the authors you cite write dark works.  Gets kind of hard to tell who to root for sometimes.

I've been rereading a fair bit of Lovecraft and Lieber these days, particularly the 'Fafhrd and Gray Mouser' series.  Something I've noted: yes, Liebers characters are top notch swordswingers and lucky to boot - but they are NOT the emotionless killing machines of so much recent fantasy either. Both of them are thieves. They kill somebody - not all that often, surprisingly enough - they grieve.  They remain heartsick over girlfriends dead for years.  Sometimes they even run away.  There is a genuine human aspect to them missing from much contemporary fantasy.



> So, what would you recommend to me? What can I read to have some faith restored for fantasy? Hell, just reading in general, whatever comes to mind.



Have you tried those with a lighter or more optimistic bent - say...Pratchet or Ann Logston?

Outside of Fantasy, I admit to liking Preston and Childs 'Pendergast' series.


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## Steerpike (Oct 27, 2012)

Try Mervyn Peake's _Titus Groan_ and _Gormenghast_. Brilliant. Rich, dense writing. You won't come across much else like it.

Modern writing is often generic, and that's not limited to fantasy.


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## Devor (Oct 27, 2012)

Leif Notae said:


> . . . . current fantasy is bloated and boring.



I haven't read him, but one of the recommendations I hear a lot is Steven Brust, who's supposed to be great at keeping things moving forward at a fast pace.  He's next on my reading list when I finish A Dance with Dragons.


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## Caged Maiden (Oct 27, 2012)

Well, I too read a lot of fantasy published in the 70's and 80's, because when I'd read in high school, I'd just go down to my dad's bookshelves and start picking books.  From those collections, I'd most definitely recommend Robert Asprin (who recently died, unfortunately).  You can find most of his MYTH series on Amazon for cheap.  Also, I loved Thieves' World, and tend to write in that sort of style, but it's a good collaborative work.  

SO MYTH series if you like light-hearted humor and puns in your fantasy, Theives' World if you like to see the grittier side of a dark world.


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## Jess A (Oct 27, 2012)

Sheriff Woody said:


> Take a break and enjoy other genres or mediums. If fantasy is your true passion, you will return to it. If not, you will find your true passion, whatever and wherever it may be.



Agreed. I'm taking a breather and going back to espionage and war/journo biographies for a little while. Maybe a few classics here and there. I need a break from fantasy every so often. I need a break from any genre every so often, because I tend to get stuck onto the same genre or similar genres and devour them one after another. 

You may come back to fantasy with a different perspective, Leif. And you can try out some of the great authors I am sure that you will be recommended in this thread. And you will find other genres will add to your own story telling in wonderful ways.


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## mpkirby (Oct 27, 2012)

It's not exactly fantasy, but Anatham by Neal Stephenson is quite good.

I'd skip his Baroque series because it's rather long-winded (although he addresses many of the issues I talk about below).  Cryptonomicon is excellent as well (although even farther from fantasy than Anathem).

I really like the dagger and the coin series by Daniel Abraham.  His "twist" is to understand the implications of medieval banking on how characters develop and interact.

In fact, I think that's one area where most authors are woefully short on.  The Medieval world is one of great economic strife.  Usually authors are quick to pick up on that and use it as a source of conflict in novels.

But most fantasy novels gloss over it.  The "rich" knight goes questing for glory.  But why?  Why risk his life for no reason.  He has money (otherwise he wouldn't be a knight).  Glory is highly over-rated.  Most people who get it, don't seek it.

And the idea of the peasant farmer is totally out of the picture.

A "questing" novel where a peasant AND a knight are forced to co-exist (worlds colliding).  Where poverty and disease play a role in the outcome -- like surviving the battle but dying of infection.

Where war isn't a noble exercise, but portrayed as a consequence of bad decisions (decisions of kings or nobles that live in a world apart from most).

The other thing I find interesting is that those with magic seem never to be 'in power'  In a real world where magic is real, I would suspect that most of our leaders (good or ill) would be magic using.  Our society would become that of two casts.  Those that wield and support magic, and those that do not.  Minimally it would look like college educated and manual laborers.

Mike


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## Leif Notae (Oct 28, 2012)

Thanks to everyone, and keep those suggestions coming.

To the people suggesting I take a break, that isn't really what I asked. I understand there might be fear due to offending sensibilities or not knowing what tastes are, but I am serious. Give me a suggestion that isn't "take a break". Let me see what you read, I'll read it, and see what I think. 

But again, thanks to everyone for commenting. Keep 'em coming!


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## Philip Overby (Oct 28, 2012)

I'll list some I like or have heard good things about:

1.  George R.R. Martin
2.  Steven Erikson
3.  Steven Brust
4.  Joe Abercrombie
5.  R. Scott Bakker
6.  Scott Lynch
7.  Patrick Rothfuss
8.  Mark Lawrence
9.  China Mieville
10.  Daniel Abraham
11.  Richard K. Morgan
12.  Jesse Bullington
13. Cherie Priest
14.  Jeff VanderMeer
15.  Andrzej Sapkowski
16.  J.V. Jones
17.  Tad Williams
18.  Stan Nicholls
19.  Guy Gavriel Kay
20.  Cormac McCarthy (not fantasy, but still awesome)

Older Stuff:

1.  Robert E. Howard
2.  Fritz Lieber
3.  Michael Moorcock
4.  Gene Wolfe
5.  Frank Herbert
6.  Jack Vance
7.  George Orwell
8.  Philip K. Dick

That's just a few.  You can look them up and see if any of them sound good.  A good synopsis goes a long way.


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## Weaver (Oct 28, 2012)

ThinkerX said:


> Outside of Fantasy, I admit to liking Preston and Childs 'Pendergast' series.



Funny, I almost recommended those myself.  Possibly my favorite non-SF/F novels, especially _Cabinet of Curiosities._


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## Anders Ã„mting (Oct 30, 2012)

Leif Notae said:


> All right, I am turning to you because I believe I am broken.
> 
> I think fantasy is dead in its current form. I've read things from twenty years ago, and I've read things published recently. Aside from the amazing exceptions (Throne of the Crescent Moon), current fantasy is bloated and boring.
> 
> That being said, I need your help. I've poked at the current "masters" (Martin, Sanderson, Abercrombie, etc.) and was left disinterested to say the least, but there must be a treasure trove of good out there somewhere in the genre.



Taste changes, both personal taste and popular taste. Sometimes you just drift away from the mainstream, I guess. 

A silver lining is that this is probably healthy for us writers, because it leaves it up to you to write all the good stories. If you want something done right, and so on.



Leif Notae said:


> So, what would you recommend to me? What can I read to have some faith restored for fantasy? Hell, just reading in general, whatever comes to mind.



What books have you read that you actually enjoyed? 

Also, what exact qualities do you look for in a good fantasy book?

If we have nothing to compare to, we're left with just listing our own favourites. That's kind of a gamble considering that your problem is evidently that you don't like the same things most other people like.


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## Leif Notae (Oct 30, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> What books have you read that you actually enjoyed?
> 
> Also, what exact qualities do you look for in a good fantasy book?
> 
> If we have nothing to compare to, we're left with just listing our own favourites. That's kind of a gamble considering that your problem is evidently that you don't like the same things most other people like.



I've been out of the loop for fantasy reading. I've stayed with some of my favorites and found other favorites dissolving under more scrutiny. Some people already listed authors and books I've read and others have given me some authors to look out for and give a chance. 

Please don't let any filters I have express your love for a book or an author. The thing here is understanding the work and what people are passionate about so I can see what I can be passionate about as well.


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## SeverinR (Nov 5, 2012)

I feel the "American" hero is stagnant.  I love t.v. shows from Canada. The characters seem more real, they aren't posing, they aren't positioning themselves for their next zinger or quotable line. 

I wonder if this is what your "feeling".  The fantasy hero flexing his muscles and flipping a sword to impress the reader rather then actually having a reason to do it.  

We have the macho hero or the anti-hero(the nerd that finds a way to become the hero), we have the pretty damsel waiting to be saved, or the PMSing warrior woman trying to prove she doesn't need anyone.
Cliche in our heros, makes the books cliche.
I don't think the genre is dead, but it might be stagnant.
When I started looking at what publishers want, they want new heros. They want women in lead rolls, they want unique people in the books. Something that sets this book apart from all the others.
Conan was a good story, but how many muscle bound warriors can we read about? They can have muscles, but maybe personality too?


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## Rainbowbird (Nov 23, 2012)

Walter Moers, The City of Dreaming Books

Little known, I believe, and as unusual as he is brilliant, in my opinion.


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