# Game Dev Team & Decisions



## Xanados (Jan 7, 2012)

After seeking a position in a game development team as a writer, I recently came across one that was working on a slightly stylized RPG spoof. 

In order to see if my writing was suitable for the team, I had to write a short sample to the founder of the company.

After a few days I began write the sample and came to this conclusion:

"Hello, Sharsnik. It's Taylor.

After writing half way into my writing sample, I came to the conclusion that I would like to resign my from my participation in the project. I feel that I am looking for a more mature narrative in which I can freely express myself. I can't work with a story that someone else has already written. I know that the game's lore isn't particularly in-depth, but I am not fond of how basic it actually is.

My style of writing is quite archaic in nature and I don't think it would suit your project. I don't think I am especially witty either. "

The story's foundations, already set by another writer, were incredibley basic and quite juvenile.

My question: Do you think it was wrong to decline the opportunity?


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## Johnny Cosmo (Jan 7, 2012)

It doesn't really matter, although it might have been worth finishing the sample to see if the opportunity actually existed. 

I have to ask: why did you go in to such detail with your withdrawal? Could you not have finished the message after the first sentence? Your tone borders on offensive, and seems to make the assumption that you are above the 'opportunity' (especially considering you approached them).


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## Xanados (Jan 7, 2012)

Johnny Cosmo said:


> It doesn't really matter, although it might have been worth finishing the sample to see if the opportunity actually existed.
> 
> I have to ask: why did you go in to such detail with your withdrawal? Could you not have finished the message after the first entence? Your tone borders on offensive, and seems to make the assumption that you are above the 'opportunity' (especially considering you approached them).


I say what I feel is the truth. It was actually an extremley small team and the leader seemed not to care what happened (he was the only English speaker in the entire team). He was not proffesional in the slightest. I would not be offensive just to be offensive. I'm not stupid. I clearly did NOT say that I was "above the opportunity". I said I did not feel that I was suited for it. 

I see your point, but I was not being offensive.

Edit: let's see what his reply is first. 
Edit: it was not a paid position, by the way. Now I think you'll understand.


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## Xanados (Jan 7, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Xanados:
> 
> As with many of your posts on these forums (for example in the conflicts thread), your email to them sounds immature. I can only assume you're a kid, and I don't recommend you have too much in-depth interaction with publishers, editors, or agents, until you grow up a little. It will only hurt you in the long run.
> 
> I'm sure you'll have some snide or defensive remark in response to this, but it is the truth.


Let me inform you why I shall not be making a response in those fashions which you assumed: I am not a child. I shall not indulge in your post, clearly intended to provoke me, and I shall not respond in the standard you expect.

I now wonder why you think the content of that email is immature. I gave perfectly acceptable reasons for my "quitting". In fact, I was polite constantly to the man with whom I spoke. Perhaps you and I have very different views on what is “offensive” or “insulting”.

I think, perhaps, you should obtain a more acute sense of character judgment. I will absorb any argument thrown my way, I will entertain anyone's ideas, but I shall not be named a child so carelessly. If you have, indeed, been dissecting my posts, then you will understand that I do not tolerate injustice. 

I’m dreadfully sorry that I'm not adhering to your assumptions.

Thank you.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Jan 7, 2012)

> I say what I feel is the truth. It was actually an extremley small team and the leader seemed not to care what happened (he was the only English speaker in the entire team). He was not proffesional in the slightest. I would not be offensive just to be offensive. I'm not stupid. I clearly did NOT say that I was "above the opportunity". I said I did not feel that I was suited for it.
> 
> I see your point, but I was not being offensive.
> 
> ...



I didn't say you said you were above it, but that your tone implied it. The point is that you emphasise the triviality of your communication and paint the projects simplicity in a negative light, when no one asked your opinion. It doesn't matter what the reply is, or whether it's a paid position or not. I understand completely; you approached a game development team, and the outcome was unprovoked criticism. And why does his lack of professionalism have to affect your own? I'd also like to point out that you didn't 'quit' anything. To make the assumption that what you did was anything more than a pre-submission withdrawal would be overstating your role in the situation. 

I don't intend to get into a debate over this, but can you not see that conflict seems to follow you around the forums? From our heated discussions in the showcase forums a while back, to your (often uncalled for) random grammar or spelling criticisms (especially considering you are not innocent of these 'offences/mistakes' yourself), to this whole drinking and conflict thread commotion... yet you're adamant that everybody else is acting unjustly, or is otherwise wrong. You're happy to assume you're right (which is made clear in how you present your opinion as fact, and term criticisms to your posts as an injustice), and it makes your posts come off as arrogant.

Let's assume you are right about everything. Would it be fair for me to offer you some honest feedback on how you approach community participation? I'm sure you'll get along here better if you relax, try not to assume you have a moral high-ground in every debate, and accept that _a lot_ of people have _very_ different opinions on _subjective _topics. If you can't do this, then ask yourself whether taking part in these forums is really what you want to be doing with your time. There.


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## mythique890 (Jan 7, 2012)

What is immature about your letter is your need to express your opinion of the project when it was unasked for.  If you had included the first sentence and the sentence that made up your second paragraph your letter would have been much more professional.  To call someone else's work "basic" and "juvenile" _is_ offensive because it's an insult to the person who wrote it.  To say that you "can't work with a story that's already been written" shows that you're not a team player.  You're 18.  You're looking for a position on a game development _team_.  Until you prove that your writing can make money the only thing anyone is going to hire your for is to work on a story that someone with more experience has already written.


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## Xanados (Jan 7, 2012)

Close the thread now.


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## sashamerideth (Jan 7, 2012)

I did some writing for a similar project, unpaid stuff, small team, and not many people that really knew what they were doing. It was one of the worst experiences of my limited career. It did bring out the worst in me, and the others. 

What you said was unprofessional, but the whole situation was unprofessional. Please try to be more professional with us.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Jan 7, 2012)

It was wrong for these reasons:

1 - *You burned a bridge* saying "not fond of"/"looking for a more mature narrative." Maybe that won't matter. Most indie dev teams only go so far. But as someone who's met the Harmonix guys before they made _Guitar Hero_ or _Rock Band_ and witnessed eye-rolling skeptics who saw them as scruffy-chinned music enthusiasts letting their passion for something unheard of cloud their judgment, well... let's just say it's best not to burn any bridges.

2 - *You came off as a quitter *the moment you said that you stopped "writing half way into [your] writing sample!" Since that's the first thing you said, they may have stopped reading at that point. Do you think they feel bad that you're bowing out? If you're writing is so great, show it off.

Confession: I turned down a game writer gig for a team that, at the time, was voted most likely to succeed on GameDev.Net. It really wasn't the kind of game I wanted to write for (too serious), but I kept that to myself and only said something similar to your comment in your last paragraph--that my writing style isn't a good fit. (Your last paragraph is fine, by the way, except for the _I'm-not-witty_ part. Never admit this!) But believe me, it felt good to be wanted--and _he_ approached _me._ I probably should have gone for it!

3 - *You're eighteen,* so what do you mean you "can't work with a story that someone else has already written?" I'm more than twice your age, and *I* don't expect to be lead writer with creative control. No MFA + no industry experience + no five-figure book sales = get down on my knees and lick dog doodles off their shoes if hired as a co-writer. (Well... for a non-paying gig, I'd insist to use a sponge.)


Most likely scenario: Being satirists, the dev team will have a laugh over what you wrote then forget you exist. If they're thick-skinned, they'll write you off as one who their satire is making fun of and will genuinely not be offended by you. If thin-skinned, they'll throw a hissy fit and fail the video game business (which is "inherently evil" in the words of a rocket-scientist friend who was in the game industry for 16+ years).


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## Xanados (Jan 7, 2012)

Close the thread.


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## Devor (Jan 7, 2012)

Xanados said:


> Close the thread.



You should probably send a PM to a mod if you really want this thread closed.


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## sashamerideth (Jan 7, 2012)

Xanados is just upset he embarrassed himself in front of his peers. I forgive him, this time.


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## Devor (Jan 7, 2012)

Xanados said:


> Primitive. Trivial. Silence yourself.
> I scoffed at "peers"



I really think you should drop the "tough guy" facade already and stop being so defensive when people hold you accountable for your attitude.  It's okay to make mistakes if you make up for them.


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## Xanados (Jan 7, 2012)

sashamerideth said:


> Xanados is just upset he embarrassed himself in front of his peers. I forgive him, this time.


Trivial.
No, that is not the case.
Close the thread.


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## Xanados (Jan 7, 2012)

Devor said:


> I really think you should drop the "tough guy" facade already and stop being so defensive when people hold you accountable for your attitude.  It's okay to make mistakes if you make up for them.


"Tough guy", interesting assumption.


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## Devor (Jan 7, 2012)

Xanados said:


> "Tough guy", interesting assumption.



What would you call it when someone pretends to be unemotional and superior while hiding from criticism and refusing to admit to any mistakes?


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## Johnny Cosmo (Jan 7, 2012)

> You're 18. You're looking for a position on a game development _team. Until you prove that your writing can make money the only thing anyone is going to hire your for is to work on a story that someone with more experience has already written._



Yeah, I forgot to point out that expecting to join a team as a lead writer as an inexperienced 18 year old is ridiculous.



> (Your last paragraph is fine, by the way, except for the _I'm-not-witty part. Never admit this!) But believe me, it felt good to be wanted--and he approached me. I probably should have gone for it!_



I get the feeling that any self-criticism from the e-mail was actually an attempt to try and balance out his insults, and written without any real basis. I'm not saying Xanados is witty or not, just that I don't think that was the reason he said he wasn't.



> Close the thread.



Why? Moderators decide which threads need to be closed, not us users. I'm fairly certain that this is a vastly more civilised discussion than that drinking thread argument ever was. And let's not forget that you were essentially presenting your e-mail for us to judge; otherwise, you needn't have quoted the e-mail at all, and opting to just ask your question would have been a better idea.


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## Xanados (Jan 7, 2012)

Johnny Cosmo said:


> Yeah, I forgot to point out that expecting to join a team as a lead writer as an inexperienced 18 year old is ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1: There was only one English speaker in the team, which I found out a few days after talking to the guy. The other 2 were Japanese and could barley speak a word of English. I did not once say I wanted to be a lead writer.
2: The writing _required_ that the writer be witty. I am not.
3: I have no idea why I presented this to you people. I realise now that I essentially posted something that, either way, would've been negative toward me.


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## Devor (Jan 7, 2012)

Xanados said:


> I can't work with a story that someone else has already written.
> 
> . . .
> 
> I did not once say I wanted to be a lead writer.



Would you, Xanados, at least apologize for being _unclear_ and for giving the wrong impression?  People are responding directly to your own statements, Xanados.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Jan 7, 2012)

> "Tough guy", interesting assumption.



Why are you so persistent in dismissing other people's arguments as assumptions? Can you not see how it displays your inability to handle criticism? Honestly, just read back on some of your posts. It just sounds like you're trying to cool, detached, and opinionated... but you come of as arrogant and pretentious.

Don't take that as an insult, because I'm sure it's just some automatic defence mechanism that's kicking in, but I think you need to stop trying so hard and just stop acting up. This is why people have called you childish, because you seem to be acting up like a child.

And I'll admit it now, this discussion is descending into drivel. I think your passive-aggressive remarks are to blame, but it doesn't really matter. If it gets out of hand, then I guess it ought to be locked.


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## Xanados (Jan 7, 2012)

Johnny Cosmo said:


> Why are you so persistent in dismissing other people's arguments as assumptions? Can you not see how it displays your inability to handle criticism? Honestly, just read back on some of your posts. It just sounds like you're trying to cool, detached, and opinionated... but you come of as arrogant and pretentious.
> 
> Don't take that as an insult, because I'm sure it's just some automatic defence mechanism that's kicking in, but I think you need to stop trying so hard and just stop acting up. This is why people have called you childish, because you seem to be acting up like a child.
> 
> And I'll admit it now, this discussion is descending into drivel. I think your passive-aggressive remarks are to blame, but it doesn't really matter. If it gets out of hand, then I guess it ought to be locked.


Assumptions.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Jan 7, 2012)

Ha. I _assume_​ that was a joke...


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## Legendary Sidekick (Jan 7, 2012)

Xanados said:


> 1: There was only one English speaker in the team, which I found out a few days after talking to the guy. The other 2 were Japanese and could barley speak a word of English. I did not once say I wanted to be a lead writer.
> 2: The writing _required_ that the writer be witty. I am not.
> 3: I have no idea why I presented this to you people. I realise now that I essentially posted something that, either way, would've been negative toward me.


Just to clarify, my post was never intended as an attack in case you took it to be.

You never directly said you wanted to be lead writer, but if you "can't work with a story that someone else has already written"--those are your words, in-context--you're essentially saying you'd accept no less than Lead Writer - Content. (I applied for that position at Tilted Mill in 2004. _The fools_ gave the job to a published author without having even interviewed ME!)

Also, my comments were really showing how you came off to the dev team. To me, you came off as someone who was not interested and decided to bow out. Nothing wrong with that, except you could have bowed out quietly.

Finally, don't take offense at the age comment. I know us older guys are annoying, but some us who talk have been through what you're going through and much, much more. I've been around plenty of game industry guys, from unknown wannabes to the extremely successful, including my entertainment lawyer who represented Dave Perry (Earthworm Jim), Kevin Eastman (Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles), Pink Floyd, Ken Levine (Freedom Force, Tribes, BioShock), The Behemoth (Alien Hominid, Castle Crashers), etc. I also went through a humiliating interview--more like an ambush!--at UbiSoft in 1999. It was two guys giving me a rehearsed speech about how I can't make a video game by myself. I was almost in tears, and wondered why they even asked me to come to New York (at my own expense) if they had already dismissed me as a wannabe before I walked in the door. When I met my entertainment lawyer six months later and told him how I got gang-banged, he shrugged and said, "That's the business. Develop a thick skin or you're done."

I think that advice applies to us writers as well.


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## Xanados (Jan 7, 2012)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Just to clarify, my post was never intended as an attack in case you took it to be.
> 
> You never directly said you wanted to be lead writer, but if you "can't work with a story that someone else has already written"--those are your words, in-context--you're essentially saying you'd accept no less than Lead Writer - Content. (I applied for that position at Tilted Mill in 2004. _The fools_ gave the job to a published author without having even interviewed ME!)
> 
> ...



You talk to me as if I don't know this. And rightfully so. I haven't told anyone. My entire life I worked towards being a 3D Artist. I was using 3DStudio Max, Normal-Mapping, Specular Mapping, Sub-Division modelling at the age of 13. I know all these things about which you are trying to wisely inform me. I have been on actual game design forums since that age aswell. The notoriously harsh Polycount community, for example.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Jan 7, 2012)

Xanados said:


> You talk to me as if I don't know this. And rightfully so. I haven't told anyone. My entire life I worked towards being a 3D Artist. I was using 3DStudio Max, Normal-Mapping, Specular Mapping, Sub-Division modelling at the age of 13. I know all these things about which you are trying to wisely inform me. I have been on actual game design forums since that age aswell. The notoriously harsh Polycount community, for example.


Cool!

Then forgive me for adding one final piece of advice, and the reason why I'm doing so.

If 3D Artist is your dream, focus on _that._ Not 3D Artist plus several back-up plans.

Why I say so, I've been told my writing "is marketable" since over twenty years ago. Yet I spent several years (and several thousand dollars) chasing a video game dream without having learned the necessary skills. It finally hit me in 2007 that writing is something I've always been passionate about and good at; therefore, I shouldn't care whether I'm writing for a video game, tabletop RPG, comic, book, magazine or what. I should just shut up and write until I'm good enough to make money doing it.


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## Xanados (Jan 7, 2012)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Cool!
> 
> Then forgive me for adding one final piece of advice, and the reason why I'm doing so.
> 
> ...



No, it once was my dream. It once was. I have delved into many aspects of game development. From wanting to program, to learning quite a lot about animation. I used to do stop-motion clay films when I was about 8 years old. I was into cameras and film before I finally landed on writing. I was writing before 3D Art. 

You have a point.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Jan 7, 2012)

> You talk to me as if I don't know this. And rightfully so. I haven't told anyone. My entire life I worked towards being a 3D Artist. I was using 3DStudio Max, Normal-Mapping, Specular Mapping, Sub-Division modelling at the age of 13. I know all these things about which you are trying to wisely inform me. I have been on actual game design forums since that age aswell. The notoriously harsh Polycount community, for example.



Using software, posting on forums, and delving into aspects of game design are not qualifications, so it's still fair for someone to assume you don't have enough experience to have such high expectations of joining a game development project. 

Why did you move to flashing your 'game design cred' from a discussion about a writing position? How does exploring 3D modelling and the likes translate to expecting a more substantial writing role with a game developer?


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## Xanados (Jan 7, 2012)

Johnny Cosmo said:


> Using software, posting on forums, and delving into aspects of game design are not qualifications, so it's still fair for someone to assume you don't have enough experience to have such high expectations of joining a game development project.
> 
> Why did you move to flashing your 'game design cred' from a discussion about a writing position? How does exploring 3D modelling and the likes translate to expecting a more substantial writing role with a game developer?


I'm surprised you haven't moved on, I really don't care anymore. How trivial is this in the great scheme of things? Think about it for a second. Have you nothing better to do?


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## Johnny Cosmo (Jan 7, 2012)

> I'm surprised you haven't moved on, I really don't care anymore. How trivial is this in the great scheme of things? Think about it for a second. Have you nothing better to do?



Ha, are you serious? I've posted about three or four times, in a single thread. You've been arguing everywhere. It seems to me like you didn't mind as long as you still thought you had some control. Now your argument has descended into meaningless drivel, mismatched points in a disjointed structure, and so you're trying to act as if you're above it all. The problem is, you're forgetting that you were happy to take part just a moment ago.

As Devor said: "People are responding directly to your own statements, Xanados."


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## Devor (Jan 7, 2012)

Xanados said:


> I'm surprised you haven't moved on, I really don't care anymore. How trivial is this in the great scheme of things? Think about it for a second. Have you nothing better to do?



I don't think any of this is trivial at all.  You will do better at life if someone can just get through your attitude problems, and by starting this thread you've presented people an opportunity to try.  People are trying to give you serious advice.  You should really listen.


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## Xanados (Jan 7, 2012)

Devor said:


> I don't think any of this is trivial at all.  You will do better at life if someone can just get through your attitude problems, and by starting this thread you've presented people an opportunity to try.  People are trying to give you serious advice.  You should really listen.


Yes, of course Devor, I'm not listening to you. That is the reason why I'm replying to most everything you've said. You think I have an attitude? I'm am the blandest, coldest, most clinical person I've ever known. Your relations must be slates of granite.


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## Devor (Jan 7, 2012)

Xanados said:


> Yes, of course Devor, I'm not listening to you. That is the reason why I'm replying to most everything you've said. You think I have an attitude? I'm am the blandest, coldest, most clinical person I've ever known. Your relations must be slates of granite.



I've posted repeatedly about a single topic, and you haven't addressed that topic even once.  Why haven't you _yet_ admitted to even the smallest mistake in your interactions with others on this forum?


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## Johnny Cosmo (Jan 7, 2012)

> Yes, of course Devor, I'm not listening to you. That is the reason why I'm replying to most everything you've said.



That was pedantic. He meant you should actually consider what people are saying.



> Assumptions. You think I have an attitude? I'm am the blandest, cold, clinical person I've ever known.



You may think you are, but you've shown in these three threads just how heated and angry you can get. Do you remember exclaiming that you won't suffer injustice like some sort of wild crusader?

I'm sorry that I've started using an offensive tone, but it seems to be the only thing you know.


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## Xanados (Jan 7, 2012)

Devor said:


> I've posted repeatedly about a single topic, and you haven't addressed that topic even once.  Why haven't you _yet_ admitted to even the smallest mistake in your interactions with others on this forum?


Okay, Good Samaritan, your need to see a random person's life changed has brought out my "witty" side again. This isn't a self-help forum, is it?
I'll admit my attitude is somewhat--- wait, wait, a minute. Why am I doing this again? I don't need to do this.

I'm done trying to speak in a disciplined manner with you two. Go on, continue.

Edit: notice that every single post I've made in the past hour that isn't in this thread is genuinley nice.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Jan 7, 2012)

> I'll admit my attitude is somewhat--- wait, wait, a minute. Why am I doing this again? I don't need to do this.



You don't have to, but it might be a good idea to get to the bottom of this for the good of the community.


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## Xanados (Jan 7, 2012)

Johnny Cosmo said:


> You don't have to, but it might be a good idea to get to the bottom of this for the good of the community.


Strike me down! Strike me down, for I hath sinned! Burn me like the warlock I am!

I'm afraid you've caught me at a bad time, dear Johnny. It's 4:30 in the morning and I'm all out of seriousness for you lot that keep pestering me. I'm going to act like the child you assume me to be! I was brought up to speak properly, but who cares! Throwin' caution to the wind!


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## Devor (Jan 7, 2012)

Xanados said:


> I'm done trying to speak in a disciplined manner with you two. Go on, continue.
> 
> Edit: notice that in every single post I've made that isn't in this thread is genuinley normal.



Honestly, it isn't.  Even when you're friendly it's forced.  _Welcome to Mythic Scribes. Enjoy your stay._  Are you trying to sound sarcastic, or is Black Dragon setting up a hotel?

You need to appreciate - you really should - that we're giving you every opportunity here.  You won't get that in most places.  You won't really get that anywhere.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jan 7, 2012)

There is a certain irony in posting on a message board to accuse someone of having nothing better to do than post on a message board.


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## Xanados (Jan 8, 2012)

Devor said:


> Honestly, it isn't.  Even when you're friendly it's forced.  _Welcome to Mythic Scribes. Enjoy your stay._  Are you trying to sound sarcastic, or is Black Dragon setting up a hotel?
> 
> You need to appreciate - you really should - that we're giving you every opportunity here.  You won't get that in most places.  You won't really get that anywhere.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the in-depth analysis. Would you prefer I started flooding the forum with sadistic porn, swearing at people like an actual "childish", "rude" and "over-reactive" moron? Would you prefer, instead of my simple introduction posts, to spam the newcomer with emotes and pictures of fluffy bunnies? Would you prefer, instead of being one who is quiet until provoked, that I was a loud, beastly, obnoxious frat boy. I can be your frat boy if you want.

Okay, so I'm angry and defensive. It’s nice to meet you. You must be obnoxious and extroverted. 

I could just label you a worm, but you’ve posted with what seems to be a fair use of brain power. I can respect that.  I’ll give you my attention for the next few minutes.
This is literally the only wit I can conjure at the moment. You are the type of person I despise the most.  

Sarcastic humour, if you haven’t guessed, is literally the only thing I find amusing. Cold and clinical, see?


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## Devor (Jan 8, 2012)

You're right, Xanados.  I'm sorry.  I crossed a line in my previous post and I wish I could take it back.


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## Xanados (Jan 8, 2012)

Devor said:


> You're right, Xanados.  I'm sorry.  I crossed a line in my previous post and I wish I could take it back.


No wait, there is more. I've added a bit of "pizzaz" to it.

Edit: A round of applause for the gentlemen that started off the second round. Without you, well, WE'D ALL BE SITTING IN SILENCE, WOULDN'T WE?


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## Devor (Jan 8, 2012)

Xanados said:


> No wait, there is more. I've added a bit of "pizzaz" to it.



You've shown repeatedly that there really is no more to your posts.

Good night.


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## Xanados (Jan 8, 2012)

Devor said:


> You've shown repeatedly that there really is no more to your posts.
> 
> Good night.


The word you're looking for is "point". 
I could say the exact same about yours.

The sad thing is you actually seem to think that I'm some uneducated delinquent. I'm not. I understand exactly what I've said and how it could be taken as offensive or rude. 

OH! What a break-through!

Ooops! You've just went to bed. You will not see my apologising!


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## sashamerideth (Jan 8, 2012)

This has been thoroughly entertaining, Xanados certainly has a knack for comedy writing, and a sarcastic wit. I'd like to see some of his work in the Showcase.


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## Philip Overby (Jan 8, 2012)

Sorry guys.  Too many personal attacks here.  I'm locking this thread.


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