# nave and chacel



## Fyle (Jun 21, 2015)

Okay, so I am describing a church - but it is in my world and therefore not a "Chrstian" church...

When I look up layouts of a church, I find these word commonly used "nave" and "chacel" BUT, they say for "Christian" churches.

If I use one of these words, will the reader automatically get the feel it is a Christian church? Or, are these words OK to describe the layout of a "church" in general?

Thanks a lot all!


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## skip.knox (Jun 21, 2015)

A church is Christian. Jews have temples, Muslims have mosques. Other religions have buildings that they have their own words for, some of which we translate as "church" but improperly so, imo. 

BTW, I think the word you mean is "chancel" rather that "chacel".  Minor nit.  But if I read a description of a building that had chancels and naves and apses and clerestories and so on, I'd not only think "church" I'd think "Catholic church".

I have to ask: if you are describing a church, what sort of building are you envisioning? Is it in the form of a cross? Does it face east-west? Is is a square? A rectangle? An octagon?  What functions are performed there? 

Now that you bring it up, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with a word for a building in which a congregation participated in religious ceremonies presided over by a priest/shaman/cleric. I supposed I'd say "temple" but maybe I'd just invent a word. Hmm.....


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## MineOwnKing (Jun 21, 2015)

I agree with skip.knox.

How about something like:

The Great Hall of Devotion, or

The Halls of Prayer.

The Theater of Subservience.

Honor Dome.


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## cupiscent (Jun 21, 2015)

Shrine, sanctuary, fane, or you could start riffing off terms like "hallowed" or "holy".

Build your temple around the rituals and beliefs enacted there. Religions "of the book" are very hierarchical, so you see that separation of "power" and "worshipper" delineated strongly in the altar area. You also see a cross layout in Christian churches quite often because the cross symbology is so strong in the faith. But other religions might favour a round layout, looking inwards to the centre, or even a fragmented approach with many altars sharing the one space. Alignment with sun, moon, stars or geographical features might be important.

Consider that the temple will also incorporate preparation rooms for rituals, perhaps living quarters for priests or other important additional rooms depending on the place of religion in society. (Is there a crypt, for instance? A schoolroom? Does religion handle the dead or education in your setting?)

All of this, because your description should help your worldbuilding, so as you describe the location, you're also scattering details of how religion and society fit together.


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## Fyle (Jun 21, 2015)

Wow.

Lots of good responses fast. Thanks...

I guess I can change the word church but... I don't think church only means the building. Like there is the chruch of Scientology which isn't christian.

So, Scientology is using it in this sense : Many people today understand the _church as a building_. This is not a biblical understanding of the church. The word “church” comes from the Greek word ekklesia which is defined as “an assembly” or “called-out ones.” The root meaning of “church” is not that of a building, but of people.

So,  I though because of this, I could use the word with my own Gods. The church of Fallon, or the church of Evermore (just examples). I guess Christian's decided to call the actual building a "church"? Which is really the meaning for the organization on the whole.

But, most readers may associate it with its more common meaning. So, thanks for the insight!


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## TheCatholicCrow (Jun 22, 2015)

I have had Muslim and Jewish friends tell me they were going to "church". I was a Religion major and they knew I respected their beliefs so they didn't have to use my terms but they did anyway. I've heard several Reform Jews (/Judaists) refer to their house of worship as "church". There is an underlying Christian tone to it but IMO it isn't inherent. 

Something that might be interesting for you to look at is the architecture of the Church/Mosque in Cordoba Spain. It began as a Catholic Cathedral until the region was overtaken by Muslims (at which point the center of the cathedral was removed and replaced w their preferred architecture) when the Catholics resumed control of the region they kept most of it the same but (I believe) replaced the statues. I'm not sure if they offer religious services there anymore - it might just be a museum now. Anyway, it might be something kind of cool to look @. It's the only Cathedral/Mosque that I'm aware of (at least that's still standing and open to the public) so it should be pretty unique.  

Nave just means the center aisle so I think you could get away with that if it's a rectangular shape. I think I read a book once that suggested Southern European Jewish temples were modeled off of cathedral architecture for a short period (though they eventually rejected it and began to design their own unique styles). It would take something like "vestibule", "pews", "kneelers", sanctuary lights, communion rails, or tabernacles to trigger "Catholic" for me. "Altars" are used in many religious buildings so you're fine w that ... you can even do a low and high altar (the high altar for us would be in pre-Vatican II churches - attached to the far wall where the I believe the Orthodox place their screens and tabernacles). 







Here you can see they are performing a Latin Mass (they're facing the high altar). Behind them is the low altar (covered in a green cloth which signifies the liturgical season- "Ordinary Time" and [Catholics- please correct me if I'm wrong] a white purificator which is blessed and must cover the altar). The low altar (behind them) is used for English (or other vernacular) Masses in which case they'd face you (the camera). They're right in saying that the set up of the worship building really does reflect the religion, it's history and its practices. (We LOVE pictures. Muslims don't - they use geometric patterns. Many protestants also don't - they see it as idolatry so their holy spaces are IMO drab).  

Perhaps look into the architecture of Buddhist and Hindu Temples. You can combine your favorite aspects of each as long as it makes sense in the context of your religion. 

Any word you use which is associated w a real world religion will inevitably hold an undertone for some readers (positive or negative) so if you can make up your own terms you might compromise our understanding of the architecture but you will also shake yourself free from our projections.


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## Fyle (Jun 22, 2015)

Wow.

That was an incredible response, Crow.

Thanks a lot!

So, it is safe for me to at least use "nave" just to describe position. I just wanna avoid the word "room" or "hall" and try to get more technical terms.


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## TheCatholicCrow (Jun 22, 2015)

Some questions to consider would be - 

Are the services led by spiritual leaders or are they a series of personal prayers/petitions/offerings/rituals to be completed either at one's own pace or together w the community? 
Do men and women sit together? 
Do children stay for the whole service or do they attend their own? 
Is there singing? Does the choir stand before the congregation (a more Protestant practice) or are they hidden from view (a more Catholic custom- in convents the nuns might be behind a grate and out of sight but heard, in other parishes a choir loft is standard)? 
Are there consecrated men/women who have access to areas of the sanctuary that others do not? Or is it the opposite? (for example - monastery & convent grilles) 
Is there a standard way for men & women to dress (must elbows, chest, and ankles or hair be covered?) If that is the case (and they allow non-practitioners to enter) you might consider having the equivalence of a vestibule/antechamber prior to the entering the main sanctuary space where women can prepare their veils or non-practicing visitors can borrow spares. 
Are outsiders welcome to sit anywhere or do they stay in the back? 
Are the services long and do people sit (if so, you can include seating)?
Does your society have high literacy rates and are there readings during the services? If so, public prayer books might be a good thing to include. If not, (and if it is a doctrine-based and not ritual-based religion [such as Judaism]) you might consider large images to teach the common people.    
Does the community gather there for activities other than worshiping? If so, you might consider adding a "hall" nearby for non-religious use. 
Do they light candles? 
Do they collect money or have boxes for donations near the entrance/exits? 

Hopefully this should get you started. If you'd like more help fleshing out a religion PM me and I'd be happy to help.


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## TheCatholicCrow (Jun 22, 2015)

I would say go ahead and use nave but I think it comes from Latin so if that conflicts w your world "center" might be better


You might find this helpful.

Also, if I remember correctly, Mircea Eliade's "The Sacred and the Profane"  deals w what he calls  "Homo Religioso" (the religious man) and his creation of the "sacred space". It's not my favorite religious theory but it is one of the better ones. It's older and he was European (Romanian I think) so it probably focuses way more on Christianity & Judaism than anything else. I think this is also where he presented his claim for an _axis mundi_(center of the world)- that religions have what they regard to be extra special/holy places (mountains, groves, Holy Lands, Vatican City, Jerusalem, Mecca) where we believe the world began or the god(s) have special access to. 

If you want to read some an awesome book that summarizes, praises and criticizes the most important theories in the field, try "Eight Theories of Religion" by Daniel Pals. It's for Religious Studies but it'd be a world building investment like no other.


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## Svrtnsse (Jun 22, 2015)

Fyle said:


> I guess I can change the word church but... I don't think church only means the building. Like there is the chruch of Scientology which isn't christian.
> 
> So, Scientology is using it in this sense : Many people today understand the _church as a building_. This is not a biblical understanding of the church. The word “church” comes from the Greek word ekklesia which is defined as “an assembly” or “called-out ones.” The root meaning of “church” is not that of a building, but of people.
> 
> ...



I've not studied religion since I was in primary school, and then not very extensively, so take me with a pinch of salt here, but my impression is similar to what you describe above. To me, _a church_ is the building, but _church of_ is an organization.

In my setting, I tend to use the word Church (capital C) when characters are referring to the religious organization - a bit like this: 


> Raoul had tried to talk her out of it. He’d warned against it and urged her to report to Church as was customary when arriving in a city but she would have none of it. She would see her sister and she would have pie and that was final. Church could wait.



Admittedly, I haven't put any greater thought into it, but as it made sense to me when I wrote it, it didn't seem necessary.


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## skip.knox (Jun 22, 2015)

Excellent comments here; I'll not try to improve on them. But as my dear old dad used to tell me: if you don't have anything constructive to say, pick nits.

"Church" doesn't come from ekklesia. It comes from Old English by way of Old German. The Scots call it Kirk, the Germans Kirche, and there are a half dozen other variations in spelling. The French do derive their word (eglise) from ekklesia. So "church" conceptually related, but not etymologically related.

Another angle on naming parts of the building would be to find a resource on church architecture (as usual, Wikipedia is a decent starting point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_floorplan ), make a list of the words, then fiddle with the spelling. That's usually enough for fantasy readers to recognize the original but also recognize you're doing something different.


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## Fyle (Jun 23, 2015)

TheCatholicCrow said:


> Some questions to consider would be -
> 
> Are the services led by spiritual leaders or are they a series of personal prayers/petitions/offerings/rituals to be completed either at one's own pace or together w the community?
> Do men and women sit together?
> ...



It's a cover for an illegal operation that takes place in the basement. So... the culture behind it is all a front and can have limited detail. 

But... for the future. Nice line up of things to keep in mind!


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## TheCatholicCrow (Jun 24, 2015)

Fyle said:


> It's a cover for an illegal operation that takes place in the basement. So... the culture behind it is all a front and can have limited detail.
> 
> But... for the future. Nice line up of things to keep in mind!



LOL - this is literally the LAST thing I would have expected.  

Well ... hopefully someone else can benefit or like you said - it might be helpful in the future.


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## Svrtnsse (Jun 24, 2015)

TheCatholicCrow said:


> Well ... hopefully someone else can benefit or like you said - it might be helpful in the future.



Already happened. 
Well, not that I actually wrote anything, but you got me a whole lot to think about on the topic, and that's helpful in its own right.


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