# Fantasy in the tropics



## SeverinR (Sep 24, 2012)

This is a spin off from "I want to see more..." thread.

We mentioned tropics being a rare fantasy enviroment.

"Thinking of it, only pirate movies deal with the tropics, can't think of one fantasy that is set in tropics. Either European weather or Oriental weather not commonly tropical Oriental locations either.

Of course, in our world wasn't all the tropics areas more primative, until colonized by Europeans? So they went from tribal to medievil(or more modern) at warp speed? Would be a very nice area to colonize for fantasy. Also use island magic rather then traditional european magic.
"Grass skirts and Breast plates."
examples:

Hawaii, central america, Central american islands, Australia, are areas I am thinking of, all of which were primitive prior to a European infestation."

I posted my places in mind of why I believed as I do. 

Aztecs/Myans did have an advanced civilization, were they as advanced as Europe, without the guns? I admit I don't know.

How would culture be different in a tropical fantasy(Pre-gunpowder)? Less armor or lighter armor? 

I do have some animals that were made for the tropics. Loved a picture of tree cities so I considered creating a story that has this.

Were the advanced civilizations aggressive? Conquer others which also led to advancing in technology/etc?


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## Jared (Sep 24, 2012)

SeverinR said:


> Aztecs/Myans did have an advanced civilization, were they as advanced as Europe, without the guns? I admit I don't know.



Were they as advanced as Europeans at the same time? From my knowledge, the answer is no for military technology and depends for scientific and engineering topics.

If you would like to see an Aztec-based novel, you might check out the Obsidian and Blood omnibus by Aliette de Bodard. It's a trilogy that's follows the high priest of the god of the dead in a bit of murder mysteries. I enjoyed it.




SeverinR said:


> How would culture be different in a tropical fantasy(Pre-gunpowder)? Less armor or lighter armor?



It depends on what you want to do. You could make a world with a tropical culture from European colonialism and advance them a few hundred years and try to imagine how their technology would have progressed.

But, I would generally imagine less/lighter armor until the weapons, like guns, demanded more (unless there were competing concerns even then).




SeverinR said:


> Were the advanced civilizations aggressive? Conquer others which also led to advancing in technology/etc?



I can't think of any 'successful' civilization that did not have conflicts with neighbors (partly selection bias, but also probably truly peacefully coexisting advanced civilizations were the minority). Scarce resources drive conflict and humans that have an advantage tend to use it.


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## Mindfire (Sep 24, 2012)

SeverinR said:


> "Thinking of it, only pirate movies deal with the tropics, can't think of one fantasy that is set in tropics. Either European weather or Oriental weather not commonly tropical Oriental locations either.
> 
> Of course, in our world wasn't all the tropics areas more primative, until colonized by Europeans? So they went from tribal to medievil(or more modern) at warp speed? Would be a very nice area to colonize for fantasy.


Careful. The terminology you're using borders on casual racism. "Those poor ignorant savages. It's a good thing the Champions of Whiteness showed up to save them from their backwards traditions.



> "Grass skirts and Breast plates."


What on earth does this mean anyway?

I reject the notion of measuring cultural complexity by industry and technology alone. Yes, the Europeans invented guns (though not gunpowder). Whoopdy-doo. But a culture's complexity and advancement can and should be measured by their social interaction, laws and traditions, art and literature (even if that literature is not written), ability to adapt to their environment, etc. Not just how efficient they were at killing each other. The Incas were able to manage the economy of an entire empire by using nothing more than bundles of knotted string. STRING! Now that's impressive.


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## Steerpike (Sep 24, 2012)

Some of the new world civilizations were as advanced or more advanced than Europe at a corresponding time. Just depends on what you're looking at. For example, Tenochtitlan was probably a lot bigger than London in the 1500s, and they had solved problems of sanitation (didn't have it running in the streets like Europe). The Inca, or groups that were to be part of that empire, had solved complex agricultural problems that let them grow substantial amounts of food where not much could grow and people today are looking back to some of those old techniques. Groups in the Amazon basin may well have changed much of the landscape of that region through their horticultural activities.  The development of maize in the new world is probably the single most significant human-directed agricultural accomplishment in history. The people in these groups were also good astronomers, builders, and so on. They had complex empires with sophisticated division of resources, routes of trade, and the like.

No, they didn't have guns and some of the "technological" achievement of Europe, but the idea that they weren't advanced only follows if you employ a solely European ideal of what constitutes being 'advanced.'


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## Ankari (Sep 24, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Careful. The terminology you're using borders on casual racism. "Those poor ignorant savages. It's a good thing the Champions of Whiteness showed up to save them from their backwards traditions.



And I hate when racism is seen in everything.  Jabroski put a story in the Showcase Forum showing his white protagonist envying the advancements of a black culture.  For some reason I never thought to raise the *Racism Flag.*  It's a story.  I never judge any race by their technological or agricultural advancements.  I judge a character by how he is portrayed.  I've seen barbarian savages dressed in full plate mail.  I've seen philosophers and scholars wearing little more than rough hemp robe and tattered sandals.  

I ask everyone, please, stop with the brow beating of ideas.  Let an author do his thing.


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## Jabrosky (Sep 24, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Careful. The terminology you're using borders on casual racism. "Those poor ignorant savages. It's a good thing the Champions of Whiteness showed up to save them from their backwards traditions.


With all due respect, I don't think the OP meant anything racist. That is a serious charge to level at someone who didn't even invoke race but rather climate. However, you are right that complex cultures have existed all over the tropics. In addition to the well-publicized Mesoamerican civilizations you also have those of West Africa, Great Zimbabwe, Ethiopia, India, and Southeast Asia, to name a few.



> I reject the notion of measuring cultural complexity by industry and technology alone. Yes, the Europeans invented guns (though not gunpowder). Whoopdy-doo. But a culture's complexity and advancement can and should be measured by their social interaction, laws and traditions, art and literature (even if that literature is not written), ability to adapt to their environment, etc. Not just how efficient they were at killing each other. The Incas were able to manage the economy of an entire empire by using nothing more than bundles of knotted string. STRING! Now that's impressive.


I agree with this part.


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## Mindfire (Sep 24, 2012)

Jabrosky said:


> With all due respect, I don't think the OP meant anything racist. That is a serious charge to level at someone who didn't even invoke race but rather climate. However, you are right that complex cultures have existed all over the tropics. In addition to the well-publicized Mesoamerican civilizations you also have those of West Africa, Great Zimbabwe, Ethiopia, India, and Southeast Asia, to name a few.
> 
> I agree with this part.



I didn't mean to come off so accusatory. Steerpike did a much better job of expressing my sentiments tactfully.


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## Legal Rose (Sep 24, 2012)

Mind:  And more to the point, you were just literally quoting verbatim several posts from the thread this topic sprung out of.  Posts which several people, including myself, have already had discussion that went something like "some terms like 'primitive cultures' come off as really offensive to some people, but at the same time I'm not totally sure that there's a better term that exists for certain circumstances", etc etc etc.


*Anyways *- so tropical fantasy.  I wouldn't advise on just translating the common fantasy tropes into a fantasy environment (elves, dwarves, mages, etc) because in the end I kind of see that as a very shallow way to do something new.  It's probably best to use settings like that because the fit for some other reason.  For instance, I mentioned a while back that I was probably going to use a tropical setting based on the French colony of Saint-Domingue (modern day Haiti) for my new setting.  But that's because I wanted a society where a tiny elite controlled a massive population of people who were basically slaves.  And the European Caribbean is sort of famous for it's brutality and for having the European colonists outnumbered by slaves sometimes over 100 to 1.

But I'm rambling.  What I was trying to get at is that if you're going to base a fantasy setting on a tropical environment, it should be for a reason.


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## SeverinR (Sep 25, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Careful. The terminology you're using borders on casual racism. "Those poor ignorant savages. It's a good thing the Champions of Whiteness showed up to save them from their backwards traditions.
> 
> 
> What on earth does this mean anyway?
> ...



I said they were primative, I didn't say they were ignorant or any other negitives.  
The island tropics I thought of, when picturing the tropics were primative, the vast empire societies was not one I thought of.
But they did not have all technology that Europe had, and probably they had some that Europe hadn't figured out yet.  Seperate evolving of science.


Grass skirts and Breast plates, the melding of tropical culture with chivalry.  

Someone seems alittle touchy on the subject.


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## SeverinR (Sep 25, 2012)

Legal Rose said:


> Mind:  And more to the point, you were just literally quoting verbatim several posts from the thread this topic sprung out of.  Posts which several people, including myself, have already had discussion that went something like "some terms like 'primitive cultures' come off as really offensive to some people, but at the same time I'm not totally sure that there's a better term that exists for certain circumstances", etc etc etc.
> 
> 
> *Anyways *- so tropical fantasy.  I wouldn't advise on just translating the common fantasy tropes into a fantasy environment (elves, dwarves, mages, etc) because in the end I kind of see that as a very shallow way to do something new.  It's probably best to use settings like that because the fit for some other reason.  For instance, I mentioned a while back that I was probably going to use a tropical setting based on the French colony of Saint-Domingue (modern day Haiti) for my new setting.  But that's because I wanted a society where a tiny elite controlled a massive population of people who were basically slaves.  And the European Caribbean is sort of famous for it's brutality and for having the European colonists outnumbered by slaves sometimes over 100 to 1.
> ...



Primative is relative, but there is no better way to say it.
The American indians were primative in alot of ways to the European conquerers(be it the attackers(Spain) or the squatters (England))

I think how you develop the story depends on how the other races came to be in the tropics. If they invaded, they would be typical elves in the tropics(more like tourists), but if they were there many generations they would meld with the tropical society.  
Also I believe the tropics could be inhabited by elves long ago, and be alot different then traditional elves. 
We, as a people, all adapt over time to the area we live in. Generations of change, not so much within one lifespan.

Sauron in King Kamehameha's court is a possibility. (Connecticut Yankee in King Author's court)
But also Tropical elves are another.


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## CupofJoe (Sep 25, 2012)

It has been said that the development of early human society in East Asia is and will remain much of a mystery because they didn't have much of Stone Age but had a Bamboo Age instead... and all their tools and structure have rotted away.

 So is the lack of tropical fantasy a matter of lack physical evidence?
 We can't go to museums and see the remnants of our local ancient histories....


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## srcroft (Sep 25, 2012)

Fortunately for you, pre-gunpower is pre1500s. There is always the dark ages where there wasn't much recording kept. That's why king arthur and dragon's take place during that time the most. You're just changing setting to Tropics in that time period. So you can pretty much do anything. 

Armor was hardened leather, weak iron at best. Tropics would tend to be tempered wood. Hardened husks in fire and strapped to weak points - in tribes. But mostly no armor at all. They've had bows, swords, spears since the beginning of literature so those are safe to use.

I think your idea could be a refreshing take on the darkages, one in tribal lands.


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## Saigonnus (Sep 25, 2012)

I think what many people are forgetting is that the tropics is more than just the collection of tropical islands we know here on earth, and places like Brasil or south-east asia (thailand, burma, vietnam etc.) and parts of India are considered to be tropical because they have the right sort of climate and vegetation. It would be entirely possible to have a country on the mainland that has an "island" culture stemming from the water (think of ancient India). If set in a Fantasy world, as long as the climate and "environment" is correct, I don't think readers would be too put off by an "islander-like" culture dwelling on the mainland since it happens in the real world. 

As for resources, I would think the only reason the never extensively used iron is due to the fact that they would rust away in a very short amount of time considering how much rain and humidity most tropical places have. They would however use things like obsidian, flint or other volcanic rock for spear/arrow points and use it to toughen regular leather armor (think about studded leather and you wouldn't be far off.) 

They would also use slings or blowguns (they still use them today, and sometimes use a neurotoxin) for hunting or keeping people out of their territory.


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## Mindfire (Sep 25, 2012)

I thought they didn't use iron because they didn't _have _iron. You learn something new every day I guess.


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## srcroft (Sep 25, 2012)

Iron is 600BC-1300AD depending on where you are located. Bronze as well was around during, before that you'd have to do bronze-- They didn't have steel which is what you probably remember.


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## Jabrosky (Sep 25, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> I thought they didn't use iron because they didn't _have _iron. You learn something new every day I guess.


Actually iron smelting in tropical West Africa goes back to the second millennium BC. This technology would spread throughout the continent in the next 3,000 years via the Bantu migrations from Cameroon.


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## Zero Angel (Sep 25, 2012)

This thread reminded me of this:
StarTropics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Mindfire (Sep 25, 2012)

Jabrosky said:


> Actually iron smelting in tropical West Africa goes back to the second millennium BC. This technology would spread throughout the continent in the next 3,000 years via the Bantu migrations from Cameroon.



I was referring to Middle and South America. I should have been more specific.


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## ThinkerX (Sep 25, 2012)

Carol Severances's 'Island Warrior' trilogy is set in a 'fantasy polynesia' type setting.


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## srcroft (Sep 25, 2012)

I loved that game! I lost the book and couldn't get the code for the piano part one time, but great puzzle game!


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## Legal Rose (Sep 25, 2012)

My understanding is that societies in the Americas simply hadn't learned to smelt yet.  With the exception of the Incas who knew how to smelt bronze.

I'm pretty sure that resources weren't a problem since I think I've heard of Native Americans using hematite.  And I'm pretty sure climate wasn't a problem since other cultures from the same era, like Indonesia, which is tropical and exactly on the equator, knew how to smelt iron.

But I'm no expert, I could be wrong.


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## Ireth (Sep 25, 2012)

I heartily recommend to you all the book _Nation_, by Terry Pratchett. It deals with an upside-down version of our world (literally, the map is just a flipped globe), and the protagonist is a boy from a "primitive" island tribe who loses his home and family to a flood. He ends up meeting a girl from colonial Britain (or the equivalent thereof), who is shipwrecked on the island, and they both must learn to utilize each other's knowledge and technology in order to survive as more and more lost souls find their way to the island, and begin building a nation of their own. Not really your typical "mighty whitey" story.


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## SeverinR (Sep 26, 2012)

CupofJoe said:


> It has been said that the development of early human society in East Asia is and will remain much of a mystery because they didn't have much of Stone Age but had a Bamboo Age instead... and all their tools and structure have rotted away.
> 
> So is the lack of tropical fantasy a matter of lack physical evidence?
> We can't go to museums and see the remnants of our local ancient histories....


That would make since.



srcroft said:


> Fortunately for you, pre-gunpower is pre1500s. There is always the dark ages where there wasn't much recording kept. That's why king arthur and dragon's take place during that time the most. You're just changing setting to Tropics in that time period. So you can pretty much do anything.
> 
> Armor was hardened leather, weak iron at best. Tropics would tend to be tempered wood. Hardened husks in fire and strapped to weak points - in tribes. But mostly no armor at all. They've had bows, swords, spears since the beginning of literature so those are safe to use.
> 
> I think your idea could be a refreshing take on the darkages, one in tribal lands.


It would depend on the area. If the tropics didn't trade, and they didn't have metals to smelt, they would have to limit themselves to what they had.

Created a backstory based on what I found for Hawaii's history. 
Created a tropical elven society with ten islands to build a society around, with no trade, a forgotten society established by religious followers. They found an island to get fresh water and some food, to continue on to the islands, but they couldn't find it to return, and the ships couldn't hold enough provisions to go direct.
One island has a small extinct volcano, so they have most resources Hawaii would have.


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