# The things we do for love...



## Svrtnsse (Jun 19, 2013)

We build worlds; we create them. We explore and explain our worlds in great details. It's great fun and it's a great joy both to do it and to show it off to others who dare even hint they may potentially have the shadow of an interest.

But is it worth it?

Does my story really benefit from being set in a fully realized world where the creator (me) has thought of everything and has an answer to every conceivable question.
My personal belief is that neither the story nor the reader actually benefits from every little detail of the world being realized. However, I do believe - and strongly so - that I as an author benefit greatly from being intimately familiar with how the world works. The hard part is knowing what matters to the stories I want to tell and what doesn't.

What's your take? Do you spend too much time on your world/setting and not enough on your story?


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## Penpilot (Jun 19, 2013)

I'm kind of the same mind as you. I only add what matters to the story into the text, and usually that's all I try to figure out. But what ends up on the page is definitely less than I know about the world.


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## Asura Levi (Jun 19, 2013)

From me, I love to create, not so much to develop. So I have all these characters, places, events worked out but not written as a story.
So yes, I do spend a lot of time in world creation, I like it. Wish I could develop the ideas behind the plots better, something that only works with years old ideas, revisited.

I went as far as creating a complete calendar system based on three moons with their own cycles. Now, this is a mathematical madness that I have no plan in repeat.


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## Weaver (Jun 19, 2013)

I don't work out every single detail of setting; there's no point.  I'm a lot more concerned with the details of the characters and events than I am about the worldbuilding.  I don't make maps, either.  (There's a joke in that somewhere, but I'm not gonna chase it.)


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## skip.knox (Jun 20, 2013)

I think most authors do this, regardless of gender. That writer of mysteries probably knows more about the case than ever makes it into the book. The romance author probably knows scads of juicy details that the reader never sees. I'd say it's a given that the author knows more than the reader.

The difference for the fantasy writer, of course, is that he has to invent the world whereas other authors, lucky devils, can't take the world more or less as given. They might have to research some exotic corner, becoming an expert in forensics or the rules of baccarat, but for the most part they are excused from having to come up with weather patterns!


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## Weaver (Jun 20, 2013)

skip.knox said:


> I think most authors do this, regardless of gender.



This confused me for a moment, until I realized it was a typo.  You do mean "regardless of _genre_," right?

I agree:  people who write mainstream have it so easy!    Of course, taking the world as given does mean that their readers will _know_ if they get something wrong.  That's the hazard of writing mainstream fiction.


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## Svrtnsse (Jun 20, 2013)

I do believe the time building the worlds we build is well spent - even if we don't go into details about it in the stories. I think that knowing well how the world works makes us write the stories differently than we would if we just winged it.
Fiddling around with the little details, tweaking things back and forth makes us more familiar with it, gives us a feel for what it's like and makes us more confident telling others about it. I believe that's something that will shine through in our writing.


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## CupofJoe (Jun 20, 2013)

It is nice to know what is "over-that-hill" [in case your story goes there] but you don't have to tell the reader.
I have to build a world map - its an absolute for me... it give you ideas about climate, trade, empires, people, and resources [everything really].
I will know fairly well what is happening 50miles away but I probably won't know too much detail about what is going on 5000miles away unless it's has a global impact.
I try to think like a very well educated and well read [Renaissance?] academic... they will probably know more than most of the public about everything and lots more about some things but they won't know everything and what they know may be wrong.
My characters often find themselves "over-that-hill" and having to work out what to do...


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## skip.knox (Jun 20, 2013)

>This confused me for a moment, until I realized it was a typo. You do mean "regardless of genre," right?

Urk. Yes.  Though I was tempted to insist I meant gender, just to see where the conversation went!


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## Ddruid (Jun 20, 2013)

I think worldbuilding matters. I think it matters a lot and not always just for fantasy and SF. How much detail and effort one should put into the worldbuilding depends upon the individual author. I am a fan of detailed and in-depth worlds even if I don't get to explore every nook and cranny of it in the story. And I believe if the author benefits from being familiar with every detail in his world so does the story. As Svrtnsse said, it will shine through in our writing. Even if the reader may not see the whole world you so lovingly created, he may get enough glimpses and peeks to tickle his imagination and let him know that it is a rich and varied one.

I'd like to compare this with a nicely baked cake. Or take a pie, or pudding or whatever you want (personally I'd go for pizza but for convenience, let's stick with the cake). We probably don't, and probably never will, know all the dozen or so ingredients that go in that big cake. Their could be raisins and cherries and chocolate and licorice sprinkling and vanilla and  >> insert random ingredient here<<  and  >>insert ingredient<<  and maybe even some  >>insert<< ... so let's not get carried away. Basically, all these individual ingredients come together to make one beautiful, delicious cake. We probably won't care about the _details_ of how it was made as long as it satisfies our taste bud. We don't know what's there. But if supposing, one ingredient is accidentally left out, and that may slightly or even completely spoil the taste of that beautiful cake, then we'll know right away that something is missing.

Just how accurately this analogy will apply to writing and worldbuilding I'm not sure but, hopefully, you get the idea. And if any one you are bakers and this also happens to be factually incorrect, please don't come after me with a pot and a rolling pin. I ain't no cook.  

So it's up to you how much detail you want to put in your world. But everything will matter. Everything will have an effect. And it will all add up to make a delicious story.  Unless you litter it with info dumps and detail which is completely unnecessary to the story. For this, I'd suggest that you know how your characters see the world. Show the details of their life and show it through their eyes. 

I'd recommend reading the latest article on Mythic Scribes (if you haven't already). It was especially interesting for me as I'm planning to start worldbuilding for a story of mine.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 20, 2013)

Five words: The Lord of the Rings.

There's a reason several surveys found it to be the number one book of the 20th century. Note, not just of fantasy, but ALL books.


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## Chessie (Jun 20, 2013)

I'm on the same lines as a couple posters on this thread. One thing that irritates me about fantasy writing is that you're pretty much expected to create a detailed world along with a map. That's too much work for something that won't even make it into the story and it just takes precious writing time away. I like the idea of settings and creating from what the story needs.

Edit: Mythopoet, so is everyone supposed to world build like Tolkien then? Its a combination of of his skill and imagination that made LOTR what it is.


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## A. E. Lowan (Jun 20, 2013)

We write urban fantasy, so it might be easy to assume that half our world is just handed to us on a plate.  Not true.  We're HUGE world builders, because we're constantly asking the question "Why?"  Why does magic happen in our modern world?  What is the history?  The meta-physics?  How does it work?  What is the difference between a wizard and a sorcerer and a witch and a mage?  How are they similar?  Where did vampires come from?  Why does a shape-shifter revert to human form when they die?  And many, many more little detail oriented questions like this to answer every day, as they come up in the writing or even just discussion.

I hear "It's fantasy, so you can do whatever you want" fairly frequently.  And, yes, I do agree with this, to the extent that the author makes it work within the boundaries they establish.  I strongly believe that there is a difference between suspending disbelief and taking it bungee jumping, and a well-built world goes a long way to maintaining that delicate balance.  So much of what we conceive will never make it onto the page, and this is the way it should be.  We want a certain mystery, want the reader asking questions about the world on their own.  However, I never want to answer a fan's question about our world with "Gee, we just never put any thought into that.  It never seemed important."

In our minds, detailed world building can only enhance the story - as long as the story gets written!


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## Sandor (Jun 20, 2013)

Hi!

This is one of the most difficult question to answer. When it's "too much"? 
I guess it depends on your style, as it's for the other great questione, Outline it or not? 

World building, in fantasy fiction, is as important as writing itself. There are authors who plan everything (J.R.R.) and authors who are good in "pretending" to be great world builders (Martin). 
Tolkien created the elven language; Martin created the words he needed to create in Valyrian.  Gene Wolfe planned a very vague world with strong "hot points" and lots of collateral stuff; Jordan seemed to be a crazy world-builder fan, that, as well as Tolkien, planned a lot more than the amount of stuff he really needed.

The answer doesn't exist. In my opinion, it depends a lot on the kind of story you're going to tell.
In my WIP (first book of a saga) I just focused on the main continent in which the main plot takes place...I have regions, cities, different laws, organisations, genealogies and so on...but I've left a lot of "empty spaces" in the map. I don't really need to know the EXSACT things I find between two cities, if I know the general environment and that's the way it should be, IMHO.

For other places and continents, I've "general outlines", in which I describe the main races, religions and basic mitology/history,just to have an idea on how they develop through times and think about their "reactions" to my plot. 

What I really suggest you to do, is to well-define the mitology and to go in depth with your magic-system. Those are the only aspects that really matter, a lot more than cities, genealogies or other similar mundane stuff.

My 2 cents
M


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## Svrtnsse (Jun 20, 2013)

I recently had something of a revelation on this topic.

I've written about a hundred different articles about my world and how it works and what can be found in it. I've written little short stories intended to give practical examples of certain aspects of the world. I feel I've been fairly productive and that I've been trying hard. The information is there.

just recently I started writing on a novel set in the world. A while after I did that a friend of mine, whom I've been pestering about the world ever since I started it, contacted me. He'd kept fairly up to date with my work and he'd read the parts of the novel I'd shared.
What he said was that as I started telling a detailed story about one of the inhabitants of the world he got a much better feel for it.

The articles and the short stories weren't enough. The data was there, but the feeling was lacking. This lead me to believe that actually telling a story is an integral part of building the world. All of the information - maps, languages, cultures - may be there, but without something or someone to relate to, no one will care.

In a way I've experienced this myself; writing stories set in the world makes me ask questions about it I don't yet have answers for. I was surprised by the difference between the novel and the short story though.
The short stories explain little details and the novel lays the groundwork for the feeling of the world.

The point I'm trying to make is that the building of the world and the writing of the story aren't separate. Writing stories set in the world is an integral part of the world-building process.

This may not be news to those of you who've been at it for a while, but it was news to me when I figured it out and I believe it's a realization that can and will heklp me tremendously in creating my world.


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## Ddruid (Jun 21, 2013)

Chesterama said:


> Mythopoet, so is everyone supposed to world build like Tolkien then? Its a combination of of his skill and imagination that made LOTR what it is.



Nobody is supposed to build like Tolkien. We can each find our own ways and methods that suit us. 

But yes, Middle-Earth is still one of the most detailed and rich fantasy worlds ever created. The amount of thought and work Tolkien put in it is astounding. He used both his skills and his imagination to build up a multi-layered, living, breathing world that continues to awe his readers. He created languages, mythologies, histories, genealogies- you name it, he did it. And the LOTR trilogy itself just scratches at the surface of Middle-Earth's lore.  

So yes, you don't have to worldbuild like Tolkien. But it is true that the world he created played a major part in endearing his books to his readers. Worldbuilding and storytelling are entwined and I thank Svrtnsse for helping me realize that.

Of course, you don't have take the huge amount of time and effort that Tolkien did. It's entirely up to you.


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## skip.knox (Jun 21, 2013)

With world building, I like this advice: do what you can't help doing.

If that means spending hours and hours making maps, drawing characters, and all that, then go to it. Don't torture yourself by thinking you "shouldn't" be doing that. Any good editor would have told Tolkien the same thing. It wouldn't have mattered; he did it because he couldn't help doing it. Conversely, if writing just the story and letting the details fall where they may is how you write, then by all means don't worry about the rest of it.

_Age quod agitis_: do that which is within you.  Seems straightforward to me.


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## Chessie (Jun 21, 2013)

I agree that the storytelling is just as important as building the world. I've spent a few months fleshing out the details to my own world but the best part for me is the writing. They are equally important, this is true. I suppose I'm just sick and tired of hearing how someone did it this way, so its the best way. This is a highly individual process and skip.knox you're right, just do what comes natural.


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## Ddruid (Jun 22, 2013)

skip.knox said:


> With world building, I like this advice: do what you can't help doing.
> 
> If that means spending hours and hours making maps, drawing characters, and all that, then go to it. Don't torture yourself by thinking you "shouldn't" be doing that. Any good editor would have told Tolkien the same thing. It wouldn't have mattered; he did it because he couldn't help doing it. Conversely, if writing just the story and letting the details fall where they may is how you write, then by all means don't worry about the rest of it.
> 
> _Age quod agitis_: do that which is within you.  Seems straightforward to me.



Words of wisdom, skip.nox. You nailed it. There is no best way. There is a way which suits you, a way which suits me and a way which suits someone else.


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## Rinzei (Jun 24, 2013)

I'm absolutely positive that I am guilty of over world-building in lieu of actually writing the story, but creating the world is part of the fun to me (if not a larger part). I love fleshing out the details in my head, having the world worked out. I also feel like I can write the story more naturally if I have those details worked out already and I'm not caught with elements that make no sense when read through later, because I already thought of those things during world-building.


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## Svrtnsse (Jun 24, 2013)

Rinzei said:


> I also feel like I can write the story more naturally if I have those details worked out already and I'm not caught with elements that make no sense when read through later, because I already thought of those things during world-building.



This is something I very strongly believe in. Your confidence when knowing what you're talking about shines through in your writing.


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## Abbas-Al-Morim (Jun 25, 2013)

I have a final about ethics tomorrow and I'd like to explain using two terms Aristotle used. 

Poesis is an activity that is not worth anything in itself and we only engage in it to achieve a goal. An example of this is running: if I hate running but I still run then I do it because it's healthy and it will (hopefully) increase my life expectancy and my physical condition. 

Praxis is an activity that is intricately valuable. You do the activity without any goal in mind. You just do it because you think the activity is valuable. An example of this is a hobby like playing a musical instrument. Running can also be praxis. 

The difference between poesis & praxis isn't absolute. Aristotle will reason that all activities that are praxis are also poesis (e.g. I play instrument because I like it (praxis) and because I want to be happy (poesis)). There's only one activity that's entirely praxis and that's "eudaimonia" (living like the gods see fit, a happy life). This part of the theory is irrelevant though. 

You should determine if your worldbuilding is poesis or praxis to you. If you enjoy worldbuilding and see it as a hobby then it's definitely praxis and you should worldbuild as much as you like. If worldbuilding is a necessary evil for you to write your novel then it's obviously poesis and you should limit yourself to worldbuilding what you need for your goal. 

Most of the time, it'll be both. You worldbuild because you like it and because you want to write a novel set in your world. So then you should try and do both. Or do more worldbuilding than strictly necessary but not so much it will actually keep you from fulfilling your goal.


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## Rinzei (Jun 25, 2013)

That's an interesting way of looking at it, Abbas. Definitely liking it. I think I'm praxis all the way then.


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## Nobby (Jun 25, 2013)

You make a post called the things we do for love, and you ask for advice?

Ddruid you are right and wrong, in my opinion. And I can bake...and I will come after you with a loose based pie tin 

I cook on the wild side, no recipes no rules.

No weights, no measures.

My advice is going to sound weird, but bear with me...I think it makes sense. If you are more in love with the batter of your cake than the cherries of your characters then you are going wrong somewhere.


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## AnnaBlixt (Jun 27, 2013)

Some writers just can't rest until they have explored every single village of the entire map. This bugs me. I prefer stories that are centered around a few locations, or follow a fairly straight line of travel. GRRM is pushing it a bit at times. I feel that some of his locations don't contribute enough to the story to motivate a visit.


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