# Throwing Knives (Or, Alternatively, Stabbing People With Them)



## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 20, 2017)

So, apparently there is some debate surrounding whether there is any point in throwing knives as weapons. A lot of sources say no, they're not effective or reliable, and you'd be better off just stabbing people. A minority say they totally can be quite lethal, and I've seen guys on YouTube splitting pork ribs with knives, tomahawks and everything pointy. (Not sure how reliable those videos are but...This is coming from someone who regards Mythbusters as absolute scientific fact, so...) 

It's really too bad if it's a useless skill, seeing that throwing knives is kind of my MC's thing. (She's not averse to stabbing either.) Now I don't think that it's her first choice in any situation, or that she relies on it, and she doesn't, like, kill anyone instantly with one throw, but she can do it, and she is good at it. What I'm wondering is, is there a reason for her to be good at it? Like, why would she bother learning? Or have I built a character around (well, not quite, but it is a big part of how I picture her to be) a flashy but pointless trick? That would be annoying. It does occur to me, why would throwing knives be a thing if it has no practical value?

Some people do the calculating rotations and everything but I've also seen some pretty badass no-spin throws. I have no idea what it would take to learn that. I'm assuming my MC is REALLY REALLY good at whatever she does, but I don't know how much I can stretch believability. 

The secondary part of this question: does anybody care? Is realism my priority? Ummm...I don't know. I didn't have her use guns because I think guns are too boring. (That's a problem too. Why wouldn't she use guns? But I don't waaaaant her to use guns.) Not to mention that a good knife might be pretty hard to find. 

I end up handwaving a lot of crap because I think it's cool (my race of winged people, for instance...the musculature is impossible, period, but do I care? Nooooooo...) but this irks me more than usual...


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## TheKillerBs (Jan 20, 2017)

I'm no expert myself, but it is my impression that no, it isn't particularly reliable, but it can be very effective if the circumstances line up perfectly. As to why someone would learn something like that... because it's cool and they found it fun? And why would one choose to throw their knife rather than stab someone? Range, for one. Or maybe it's one last-ditch attack before they leg it. I'm sure I could come up with some other reason if I really thought about it for a while but I really should get back to my story.


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## skip.knox (Jan 21, 2017)

>whether there is any point in throwing knives 
Well, if there isn't any point, then they aren't very good knives, are they? <gdr>

I gotta ask: what's so irky about this? You're willing to let some things slide but not this thing. Can you spot what is bugging you? Might find a clue there.

You're right about finding a proper knife. You could use that. She is a bit obsessed about retrieving the knives. Can only get what she likes from this one particular bladesmith. Maybe that bladesmith adds a dollop of magic that makes them especially throwable or something. She could also sort of moon over them--not just sharpening them but polishing them, keeping them in special cloth, fussing over how hard orc hide is on them.


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## Christopher Michael (Jan 21, 2017)

The skill of throwing knives is absolutely useful, and can be quite deadly. However, and I'm sure you've looked at this so ignore me if I'm repeating what you've already considered, you can _not_ use just any knife. The only way a thrown knife is anything more than an unreliable ballistic object is if it is a knife designed specifically to be thrown. Those blades have lighter (sometimes nonexistent) hilts, and heavier blades.


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## Christopher Michael (Jan 21, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> That's a problem too. Why wouldn't she use guns? But I don't waaaaant her to use guns.) Not to mention that a good knife might be pretty hard to find.



That's simple. Either make her an assassin, or constantly put her in situations where noise is the least desirable thing. Anybody who knows guns knows silence, even with a "silencer" isn't a thing you get there.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 21, 2017)

Christopher Michael said:


> The skill of throwing knives is absolutely useful, and can be quite deadly. However, and I'm sure you've looked at this so ignore me if I'm repeating what you've already considered, you can _not_ use just any knife. The only way a thrown knife is anything more than an unreliable ballistic object is if it is a knife designed specifically to be thrown. Those blades have lighter (sometimes nonexistent) hilts, and heavier blades.



I'm in need, first and foremost, of something she can both throw and fight with. Versatile.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 21, 2017)

Christopher Michael said:


> That's simple. Either make her an assassin, or constantly put her in situations where noise is the least desirable thing. Anybody who knows guns knows silence, even with a "silencer" isn't a thing you get there.



She is an assassin...ok, she gets recruited as an assassin, but she has her skills long before that. But noise is definitely a thing to think about...thanks for mentioning it cuz I hadn't even thought about it. It's definitely a factor.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 21, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> >whether there is any point in throwing knives
> Well, if there isn't any point, then they aren't very good knives, are they? <gdr>
> 
> I gotta ask: what's so irky about this? You're willing to let some things slide but not this thing. Can you spot what is bugging you? Might find a clue there.
> ...



Gaaaaahhh, the magic idea...I really like that but I don't know if I can make it work...

And yes, she loves her knives. Even though she can fight very well without them, they make her feel secure. You do develop an affection for something that saves your life again and again. Maybe she names them...

Some questions come up in my head...if she's so attached to her knives why would she risk losing them? Why would she make the effort to learn something that's unreliable? She's very practical. There are lots of situations where she might be forced into a tight spot and where throwing and hoping to stick it might be her best option, but would she practice for that kind of situation? Hmm...if a lucky throw saved her life once or something she might see the sense in practicing the skill.


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## Christopher Michael (Jan 21, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I'm in need, first and foremost, of something she can both throw and fight with. Versatile.



You're going to have to hand wave that away. The needs for hand fighting with a blade are vastly different than a thrown blade.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 21, 2017)

Christopher Michael said:


> You're going to have to hand wave that away. The needs for hand fighting with a blade are vastly different than a thrown blade.



Every source I look at tells me something different. 

In any case she'd want a blade to stab people with first and a blade to throw second.


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## Christopher Michael (Jan 21, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Every source I look at tells me something different.
> 
> In any case she'd want a blade to stab people with first and a blade to throw second.



The problem you're running into is actually simple. A knife you would use for fighting has a specific set of needs. You need to protect _your_ hand from cutting itself on the blade. That means you need grips in the hilt, meaning the hilt is now longer than your palm. The majority of the weight, in all honesty, is going to be concentrated here, because of the balance issues otherwise.  Most combat blades are better served being used as a slashing attack rather than a stab. You _can_ stab someone with almost any type of knife- even a throwing knife. But a throwing knife's needs are such that you're most likely to badly slice your hand if you stab or slash with it.
If you're looking for a close quarters combat knife that best serves a silent and swift assassin? I would recommend the karambit. From what I've seen, it has an amazing balance. It is compact. It is specifically designed for slashing, which makes it a good throat and artery slicer. It can also be easily, and quickly, concealed in most incarnations you'll see. 

Throwing knives, as opposed to everything I've just said, have all, or at least most, of the weight in the blade. Although they _can_ be thrown overhand with a spin, they function best when thrown underhanded with zero spin.  Because of all of that, they tend to be a hunk of metal that is mostly blade, with minimal hilt protections involved. This is the most common variant I see lately, although they've been around for centuries and in almost every culture. There are hundreds of permutations of the throwing knife, some of which could _in theory_ be useful to you as a combat knife, although there is still little or not protection of the hand.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 21, 2017)

Christopher Michael said:


> The problem you're running into is actually simple. A knife you would use for fighting has a specific set of needs. You need to protect _your_ hand from cutting itself on the blade. That means you need grips in the hilt, meaning the hilt is now longer than your palm. The majority of the weight, in all honesty, is going to be concentrated here, because of the balance issues otherwise.  Most combat blades are better served being used as a slashing attack rather than a stab. You _can_ stab someone with almost any type of knife- even a throwing knife. But a throwing knife's needs are such that you're most likely to badly slice your hand if you stab or slash with it.
> If you're looking for a close quarters combat knife that best serves a silent and swift assassin? I would recommend the karambit. From what I've seen, it has an amazing balance. It is compact. It is specifically designed for slashing, which makes it a good throat and artery slicer. It can also be easily, and quickly, concealed in most incarnations you'll see.
> 
> Throwing knives, as opposed to everything I've just said, have all, or at least most, of the weight in the blade. Although they _can_ be thrown overhand with a spin, they function best when thrown underhanded with zero spin.  Because of all of that, they tend to be a hunk of metal that is mostly blade, with minimal hilt protections involved. This is the most common variant I see lately, although they've been around for centuries and in almost every culture. There are hundreds of permutations of the throwing knife, some of which could _in theory_ be useful to you as a combat knife, although there is still little or not protection of the hand.



Thanks for the pics  

And...I've seen people throw all kinds of knives, even combat knives with most of the weight in the handle, but are they ideal?...Hmm idk. It seems that you'd have to throw something large and heavy anyway, to do any damage. 

Self-defense is her main interest at the start of the story. Later on I don't know what she might use. 

This is getting really difficult...ugh. So frustrating. I fail to see how the problem is simple.


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## Christopher Michael (Jan 21, 2017)

The weight isn't the issue, it's the distribution. For combat, you need weight in your hand. For accurate, piercing, throwing, you need the weight in the blade.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 21, 2017)

Christopher Michael said:


> The weight isn't the issue, it's the distribution. For combat, you need weight in your hand. For accurate, piercing, throwing, you need the weight in the blade.



Makes sense.


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## Malik (Jan 21, 2017)

It's going to depend on your level of realism, too. Because throwing a knife is silly. I'm sorry, but it just is. 

There is almost no way to reliably kill someone with a thrown knife fast enough for them to not cross the distance and murder you before they bleed out. Your best shot would be to hit them in the face -- most people will leave you alone if you stab them really hard in the face; handy life tip there, write it down -- and run like hell, and even then, you'd have to hit them just right. People walk into the ER with knives sticking out of their skulls. Look it up. If a guy has a knife and is threatening me, just about the best thing that could happen to me is for him to throw it at me. I'd much rather someone throw a knife at me than close on me with it.

First off, a thrown knife takes forever to get to its target. It's a half-step to one side or the other to totally negate the thing. You have plenty of time if you see it coming, and if you recognize the movement, anyone with a modicum of hand to hand training can slip it. If someone was winding up to throw a knife at me, especially overhand, I'd be in the next ZIP code or behind hard cover before it came out of his hand.

If the knife hits a major organ, even the heart, you're talking minutes for the target to bleed out. If the target leaves the knife in place, it's likely plugging the wound; shock will swell the tissues up around it, slowing blood loss, and he'll kill you. And you just threw your knife. You better hope you have another one. If it hits the heart and the heart stops, you might outlive him. If it hits the throat just right, you might outlive him. If it hits the skull just right, you might outlive him.

You have to stab someone a lot to kill them. Like, a LOT. It's called the "sewing machine attack," and it's pretty much that: you stab them again and again and again, real fast, like a sewing machine, all over, until they shut down and slip into hypovolemic shock. Or you sneak up behind them when they're -- I don't know; mixing a drink, or texting, or something -- and then there are silent takedown techniques with a knife, sure. Cutting the throat, stabbing up through the short ribs into the lungs with a hand over their mouth, all that. However, the rear naked choke is more effective, quieter, and doesn't mess up your shoes. Personally, I'm partial to the "turtle****," where you slam the guy in the side of the head with your helmet. Or his, if he's not wearing a chinstrap. 







*This is seriously my favorite illustration in the whole Army.*​
The whole TV thing about someone getting hit with a knife, or shot with an arrow, or even shot with a bullet, and falling down dead just doesn't happen. 

Some people, not knowing any better, will realize they've been shot or stabbed or whatever and will, in fact, literally lie down and die because that's what they expect -- there are quitters in the world -- but generally speaking, people who fight for a living and take human lives themselves have likely seen people live through some crazy shit, which makes you way tougher. Especially if you have a competitive streak. 

When I was convalescing in 2012 the guy in the next room had one side of his face blown off with an IED a la Gus Fring. The way I understand it, he came to in the middle of a firefight, stuffed a bandage in his own eye socket, put his rifle on his other shoulder, and got in the game using his good eye. I'm betting he didn't hit much, but don't tell me poking a two-inch hole in someone is going to make them clutch their chest and start singing "Bury Me Not on the Lone Prairie." Dude now has a glass eye with a Batman symbol for the pupil. 

In the Vietnam war, SFC Benavidez took the title, here. He was shot, stabbed, and blown up a total of 37 times over the course of six hours, and kept fighting the whole time, sometimes hand-to-hand. 37 holes in that guy and he kept going.

I'd be very careful about whom I threw a knife at.

Throwing knives is really cool; it looks great, it reads great. It's impressive to watch, takes a lot of work, and is very sexy. There are guys in my archery club who throw great. But offensively, it's unwise. As an assassination technique, it's ridiculous.

Now, a _poisoned _knife . . .


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 21, 2017)

Malik said:


> It's going to depend on your level of realism, too. Because throwing a knife is silly. I'm sorry, but it just is.
> 
> There is almost no way to reliably kill someone with a thrown knife fast enough for them to not cross the distance and murder you before they bleed out. Your best shot would be to hit them in the face -- most people will leave you alone if you stab them really hard in the face; handy life tip there, write it down -- and run like hell, and even then, you'd have to hit them just right. People walk into the ER with knives sticking out of their skulls. Look it up. If a guy has a knife and is threatening me, just about the best thing that could happen to me is for him to throw it at me. I'd much rather someone throw a knife at me than close on me with it.
> 
> ...



Well, shoot. 

(That illustration did crack me up.) 

Suppose I shoulda done my research *before* writing the whole book? (Less self explanatory than it looks, apparently.) 

To be fair, this project is not heavy on realism. When I started out the details were meant to be a little overly flamboyant, so, it did fit. I wasn't taking anything dead seriously. Now I'm thinking I want a little more realism and, well. This isn't the first problem that's caused and it won't be the last.

What to do? Decide I don't care? Write it out of the character (actually wouldn't be that hard because the knife-throwing thing doesn't come up that much. She stabs a guy in the throat in a flashback, though.) which, I still don't want to do? Come up with a magical explanation? (Even though that would stretch my magic system significantly?) 

(Every time I write a book: "This will be a low magic setting!" I always hate myself for it. Always always always.)

It was a really cool idea, k? Allow me to mourn for it. Wait, will my readers even care? My sense of realism is continually at war with my sense of cool. (Dragons, winged humanoid race, flying machines...I have a thing for stuff with wings.) On the one hand, I like being realistic as much as I can; on the other hand, reality is tedious and disappointing. 

(Really starting to wonder why throwing knives are a thing if they're useless.) 

What now then?


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## Malik (Jan 21, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Really starting to wonder why throwing knives are a thing if they're useless.



Throwing knives are really handy against small game. Like, really, really handy. Stapling an unsuspecting squirrel to a tree from ten yards is not a skill to be underestimated, especially if you already have potatoes and the means to make gravy.

ETA: I've worked with foreign militaries who would sit around during lulls and bet about who could throw a knife to hit what. It's weird, because it's almost completely useless in combat yet nearly universal among soldiers. As such, it's a skill that I could completely envision evolving around the campfire with bored warriors throughout history and maybe coming in handy once in a great while. Also, never play mumbletypeg with anybody who's served with the Foreign Legion.

Go ahead and keep it. Make the knives poisoned. Or make them magic. Or make the MC blessed so that her knives always hit something vital. Or something. You don't have to do away with it if you do away with realism to some extent. This is where the whole fantasy part of fantasy comes in handy.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 21, 2017)

Malik said:


> Throwing knives are really handy against small game. Like, really, really handy. Stapling an unsuspecting squirrel to a tree from ten yards is not a skill to be underestimated, especially if you already have potatoes and the means to make gravy.
> 
> ETA: I've worked with foreign militaries who would sit around during lulls and bet about who could throw a knife to hit what. It's weird, because it's almost completely useless in combat yet nearly universal among soldiers. As such, it's a skill that I could completely envision evolving around the campfire with bored warriors throughout history and maybe coming in handy once in a great while. Also, never play mumbletypeg with anybody who's served with the Foreign Legion.
> 
> Go ahead and keep it. Make the knives poisoned. Or make them magic. Or make the MC blessed so that her knives always hit something vital. Or something. You don't have to do away with it if you do away with realism to some extent. This is where the whole fantasy part of fantasy comes in handy.



Again, hating myself for the relatively low magic setting.  I could make it work, though. Possibly. There are a lot of magic elements left unexplained. 

Poison doesn't need magic though. I can come up with something that'll kill you with just a nick. 

I keep leaning toward just handwaving it. As I said, it all has an over-the-top kind of aura about it. And I doubt my readers might care. I wince every time I have to handwave something, but I do it when the concept is attractive enough. The whole idea of fantasy, right? 

I strongly feel that this is my own nitpick and none of my readers would care.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 21, 2017)

I probably should actually look at how much the knife-throwing enters the plot. I wanted it part of the character, but can't remember if it's an essential part of any scene. (Haven't read it all the way through yet.) It's more of a trait of the character than anything. 

She can carry both a sturdy combat knife and some throwing knives tipped with some nasty poison, sure.


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## Malik (Jan 21, 2017)

Most readers wouldn't know the difference. It's such a well-oiled trope that 99.99% will likely bleep right over it.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jan 22, 2017)

Yeah this is decidedly true. Hell, we kind of grew up with The Magnificent Seven knife thrower guy and throwing stars killing people in MA flicks. Throwing stars! Yeah. Throwng knives, stars, all that sort of thing are useful to: distract, cause an ouch, maybe convince the enemy not to follow you too quickly? 

One of my favorite survival story is the guy who was drunk and put an apple on his head to have it shot off... An arrow through the eye later he wasn't dead. There's a moral to the story about being drunk and letting drunks shoot arrows at your head, but it also proves just how tough humans are... despite the fact that we'll sometimes die from a stupid-lucky blow to the chest or head.

There are also historical references to rapier duels where both combatants eventually died, but in pop culture a rapier or knife is as deadly as a zweihander. There's a reason warriors wanted serious hunks of steel in war.

Throwing axes... at a target not knowing it's coming? That can be a serious hunk of steel in the back, still probably not fast, but serious ouch.

And I'm sure this was mentioned in her before, but the reason puncture wounds were so feared in low med tech war was death from infection. Slow and ugly.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 22, 2017)

Demesnedenoir said:


> And I'm sure this was mentioned in her before, but the reason puncture wounds were so feared in low med tech war was death from infection. Slow and ugly.



Oh yeah...

Definitely low med tech. Post apocalyptic, so... We also have a deadly plague that infects people through open wounds. So a knife wound will very likely kill you through infection...


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## Malik (Jan 22, 2017)

I had an idea on this, DOTA. 

I don't know your MC's backstory, but if her father was a soldier, and he had learned to throw knives as a pastime during campaigns -- just something that, in my experience, soldiers seem to do -- it might be a thing that he teaches her when he gets back. 

There are "tells" for former military, even in our society; things that allow you to pick an ex-soldier out of a crowd, that often they don't even realize are unique to them. Throwing a knife could be one of these tells for your society. Just a thing that no one else does.

Now, this next part is a bit farfetched, but it could that if no one ever sees her throwing the knives, the authorities might immediately start suspecting former soldiers -- especially grizzled campaign veterans -- and not some youngster. It could throw them off her tail for a while, either inadvertently or on purpose.


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## SeverinR (Jan 25, 2017)

Technically,
even a poisoned blade would kill slowly.
The poison has to get into the blood stream before it takes affect.  Poisoned blade trope is just as believable as the knife throwing trope.

Unless you can throw a knife into the throat of the victim, they will yell, and still might be able to if the knife wound is air tight.

My character is a knife thrower in a traveling show.  There is armor on many warriors, so a thrown blade has less areas to hit.
So a thrown blade to a leg will slow them down. An arm hit will slow their sword. Also both could be fatal eventually, if they hit a vein or artery.  Or as they have said infection sets in.  (BTW if an unclean object strikes bone, bone infection can set in. Without antibiotics the limb will have to be cut off.)
I believe the philosophy in fencing and knife fighting is to tear down the opponent, rather then one strike one kill. Poke holes in them until they pass out from blood loss, or make them unable to fight, cutting tendons or muscles.  Each small wound takes it's toll, the knife fighter takes advantage of the previous wounds to make deeper and better strikes as the wounds allow the fighter to "get in" more often.
Fighting a fully armored person, One scene my knife fighter lands a knife to a joint, draws blood but the armor locks the blade, she loses the knife, luckily she has a spare.  There is always weak points to even the most armored person. 
 I even had a small female character attack from prone, a fully plate armored gentleman standing over her, with a thin knife up thrust up between his legs. (femoral artery and bladder were cut.) He had protection from a normal sword strike there, but not for a precise knife. (Also he didn't think the girl had any chance of harming him, nor did his friends, because she got away, because they were so surprised.)
So a knife should not be underestimated.  Police know the 21 feet rule.  A person with a knife can land a fatal attack from 20 feet before the average officer can get his pistol out and fire.  (granted the officer will shoot the knife attacker, but they will be seriously wounded.)


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 25, 2017)

I don't need instant death from a blow in any scene. I just need opponents slowed down enough so that they can't pursue, or incapacitated enough to be finished off. 

My MC's main aim is to protect herself in most scenes. She often aims to escape rather than to kill. As for actually killing people, she stabs a guy through the throat in a flashback, and she supposedly kills a guy in the opening scene, but I was going to have her gut stab him anyway...

A major problem I see with knife throwing, though, is how will you retrieve your knives? If you hit a guy in the gut and he's on the way to being dead but is still kicking...you going to go back and pull that knife out of him? That's the last thing you want to do. You'll go through them fast.


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## TheKillerBs (Jan 25, 2017)

SeverinR said:


> Technically,
> even a poisoned blade would kill slowly.


It depends on the poison. Something like marbled cone snail or poison dart frog venom would incapacitate you almost instantly and kill you within minutes.



> The poison has to get into the blood stream before it takes affect.


While this is true, if a knife laced with poison makes the target bleed, the poison is in their bloodstream. If it's something as deadly and fast-acting as the two venoms I mentioned above, they're done.


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## SeverinR (Jan 26, 2017)

Just a note on the poison dart frogs- only the wild frogs are poisonous, something about domesticated poison dart frogs renders them poisonless.  (Not sure if poison free, or just not deadly, so don't let Fido eat the frogs)

Also Marble cone snail is also known as the Cigerette Snail, because you only have time to smoke one cigarette before you die and there is no anti-venom known to date. So deadly yes, instant dead...no, unless you can ensure it goes directly into blood stream then I doubt you have time for a cig.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Jan 26, 2017)

I saw someone throw a knife once when I was young, maybe it was at a circus. I thought it looked cool, and started practicing it. Knowing no better, and not having access to any good resources, I was throwing handle-heavy knives, and grasping them by the blade to throw them. I got to where I could fairly consistently stick them in boards or in the ground. I'm confident I couldn't have seriously injured anyone with my knife throwing, and I was not able to precisely hit small targets.

The moral of the story? Motivation can come from observing a skilled knife thrower at work and wondering if you could do the same thing. But gaining a true skill would best be done through learning from an expert.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 27, 2017)

SeverinR said:


> Just a note on the poison dart frogs- only the wild frogs are poisonous, something about domesticated poison dart frogs renders them poisonless.  (Not sure if poison free, or just not deadly, so don't let Fido eat the frogs)
> 
> Also Marble cone snail is also known as the Cigerette Snail, because you only have time to smoke one cigarette before you die and there is no anti-venom known to date. So deadly yes, instant dead...no, unless you can ensure it goes directly into blood stream then I doubt you have time for a cig.



what about a poison that causes immediate excruciating pain? Not good for stealth, but...How quickly can paralysis set in?


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## Michael K. Eidson (Jan 27, 2017)

This thread reminds me of a roleplaying game where I played an assassin character of a special race the GM made up. My character collected poison from his own skin to use on darts and daggers. Thing was, he wasn't immune to his own poison, so he had to be careful not to cut himself while collecting the poison. I don't know if something like that even makes sense, maybe for a fantasy story, but it was a fun assassin character to play in an RPG. Part of the fun of that character was that he was highly uncharismatic, so I got to be totally rude to everyone and blame it on being in-character.


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## TheKillerBs (Jan 27, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> what about a poison that causes immediate excruciating pain? Not good for stealth, but...How quickly can paralysis set in?



I'm not aware of any poison like that. I think rattlesnake venom gets very painful very quickly,  but I'm not sure so don't quote me on that. The great thing about speculative fiction though is that you aren't restricted to  real life poisons and therefore you can make up a poison to do whatever you flipping want.


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## SumnerH (Jan 29, 2017)

TheKillerBs said:


> I'm not aware of any poison like that. I think rattlesnake venom gets very painful very quickly,  but I'm not sure so don't quote me on that. The great thing about speculative fiction though is that you aren't restricted to  real life poisons and therefore you can make up a poison to do whatever you flipping want.



Platypus venom causes excruciating pain very quickly; it's pretty debilitating, though just short of outright paralysis.  One description from the 1880s:


> the pain was intense and almost paralyzing. But for the administration of small doses of brandy, he would have fainted on the spot; as it was, it was half an hour before he could stand without support, by that time the arm was swollen to the shoulder, and quite useless, and the pain in the hand very severe



An Australian soldier who served in Vietnam and was later stung by a platypus said the pain was far worse than any shrapnel wound he'd had, and didn't respond at all to morphine.


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## Malik (Jan 29, 2017)

The Palestinian Yellow Scorpion ("Deathstalker Scorpion") won't kill you, but it hurts so much you'll wish it had. Its sting contains multiple types of neurotoxin, so it takes a shitload of antivenom. It can kill, but generally doesn't. It's a little yellow bastard the size of your thumb with a black stinger ball.


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## Malik (Jan 29, 2017)

SumnerH said:


> Platypus venom causes excruciating pain very quickly; it's pretty debilitating, though just short of outright paralysis.  One description from the 1880s:
> 
> 
> An Australian soldier who served in Vietnam and was later stung by a platypus said the pain was far worse than any shrapnel wound he'd had, and didn't respond at all to morphine.



Further proof that God was ****ing with us when He created the platypus.


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## psychotick (Jan 30, 2017)

Hi,

I used to throw knives a long time ago. Normally the blade was at least as heavy as the handle, mostly more so, and the throwing technique involved holding it by the blade. When I was first learning I took some cut on the hand. This isn't going to be good if the blade is covered in some poison.

As for your poisons - if you want paralysis there's three effective ones I can think of - botulinum, tetanus and curare. If you want pain the scorpion toxins and jellyfish neurotoxins are probablya good start.

Cheers, Greg.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 31, 2017)

Something that occurred to me...

I found myself thinking frequently amid writing this draft that I need to foreshadow the "magical" aspect of the story much earlier. I played with an alternate beginning where the MC discovers some pre-apocalypse magical artifact (without recognizing it for what it is) early in the story, but never liked it. Now I'm wondering if said strange-and-weirdly-magical-seeming-artifact could be the MC's weapons. In addition to being more accurate and deadly than knives should be, they could have the look of being from another era, an odd delicacy in design that clashes with the surrounding world... About the only problem with this is explaining how she got them, which is a dilemma, but that itself might be an opportunity for the foreshadowing and developing I want to include. 

Having magicked knives seems to me a trait with a Mary Sue-ish aura...I don't like it. Also, if I had something that valuable, I sure as hell wouldn't throw it. But if I was sure of a kill, now...

I'm trying hard to make this work, but the reader needn't know that.  I need to solve the foreshadowing problem regardless of the knife problem anyway.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Jan 31, 2017)

Have you given any thought to the knives being magically enchanted to return to their thrower's hand? This could be only if they miss their intended target, returning like a boomerang. If they hit, the assassin would still have to try to retrieve them, but at the same time, they served their real purpose, which is to maim or kill. If the assassin only uses them when facing a single opponent, then retrieving them isn't so bad. it's when facing multiple opponents that the assassin would need to be clever, but this also keeps the assassin from being a Mary Sue.

With magic, you could have the daggers be able to extricate themselves from corpses and return to the thrower, but this is treading closer to Mary Sue territory. You'd need some kind of restriction on that sort of ability, and make sure the restriction came into play in more than one or two scenes.

It could be also that the assassin has the power to, say, attract the rare type of metal used in constructing the knives, and in this way is able to draw the knives from corpses or wherever they landed. Drawbacks here might be that the assassin has to be within direct line of sight of the thrown knives and within a certain range. Also if anything else in the area happens to be made of the same rare type of metal, the assassin could attract those things as well as the knives.

Some of the above sounds a bit roleplaying-game-ish, but I'm just throwing out ideas, since you're thinking the knives might be magical.


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## psychotick (Feb 1, 2017)

Hi,

Had a thought. The reason throwing knives is such a useless technique apart from the ones already mentioned like having to retrieve them, is that when you throw them you spin them. I've never seen anyone manage to throw a knife without it spinning. The spinning means the knife hits at an angle and maybe even hilt first. If the blade is heavier than the hilt and it hits hilt first but not at too steep an angle, the blade will still manage to spin into flesh. But it won't strike deep. And even if it hits blade first, the momentum of the spin means it wont strike straight.

To make a thrown knife as deadly as possible it needs to fly straight like a dart so all the momentum carries the blade straight into the flesh as deep as possible. Like a spear. I don't think people can do this, and those that cause the most damage with a spinning knife would use a heavy blade which isn't going to be easy to conceal.

But what about a spring loaded knife thrower worn on the insides of the lower arms that fires blades dead straight like a spear? It can be concealed by long loose sleeves, and maybe has a magical aspect to it as well as the spring. And if the throwers magic but not the knives then the issue of throwing away such expensive blades doesn't arise. Also she could be more accurate without needing to train so much, and it's silent more or less if she hits the throat and people can't scream.

Cheers, Greg.


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## SeverinR (Feb 28, 2017)

Pain is different.  Because the "poison" would attack the nerve sensors.  The sight of injury would burn with nerve pain, then it would move up the extremity as the poison spread affecting more nerves.  The pain could render the person unconscious from overwhelming pain. Depending on how the nerve pain worked, it could theoretically overwhelm the nervous system and block all impulses to and from the brain. Total paralysis from pain, possibly even causing heart beat irregularities that can turn fatal.
The poison could also damage the nerves, which would permanently render the extremity unusable, paraplegia, and quadriplegia.
I don't know of any poisons that would fit this, but you can create something like this for your world.

Maybe consider the feeling of your arm going to sleep, the worst tingling burning you've ever felt, and it moves towards the heart and brain.  (The extremity going to sleep is circulation problem, but the tingling is nerves.)


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## SumnerH (Mar 4, 2017)

psychotick said:


> As for your poisons - if you want paralysis there's three effective ones I can think of - botulinum, tetanus and curare. If you want pain the scorpion toxins and jellyfish neurotoxins are probablya good start.



Tetanus onset is typically 7-10 days after infection.  Botulinum takes several hours at minimum (Botox injections take a few days to take effect).  Neither is going to be very effective in battle.  

With curare you're looking at at least a minute for a direct syringe injection of refined turbocurarine into a major artery, more like 10-25 minutes for normal curare poison with a weapon delivery.  Fast enough to be effective for hunters who can track the prey (one of the nice things about curare is that it's not absorbed by the digestive tract, so you can safely hunt with it and eat the poisoned victim), but on the borderline of being useful in battle.


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## SumnerH (Mar 4, 2017)

psychotick said:


> Had a thought. The reason throwing knives is such a useless technique apart from the ones already mentioned like having to retrieve them, is that when you throw them you spin them.



Spin throws are useless unless you're using the same knife from the same distance every time.

Combat throwers would probably throw no-spin, like competition throwers do.  This video starting at 6:20 has a competition knife thrower hitting an ipad from 30', 35', and 40' with no-spin throws.


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