# Appropriate pronouns for genderqueer aliens



## Jabrosky (Feb 15, 2014)

So I have designed this race of aliens whom I call the Soljuws. They're supposed to be these slothful and obese slug-like creatures whose excessively comfortable, futuristic standard of living depends fundamentally on the enslavement and exploitation of other races, most especially prehistoric humanity. Think of them as Hutts gone hi-tech and imperialist. Anyway, one of the Soljuws' unique characteristics is that they're "genderqueer", which in their case means that they really have only one reproductive sex. They even regard humans' two-sex reproductive system as disgusting and barbaric.

The question I want to raise at the moment is what would be appropriate pronouns for a race of genderqueer aliens? I don't like "it" as that makes them seem like wild animals, but on the other hand neither "he" or "she" would fit them all that well. They speak with shrill voices which might sound feminine, but on the other hand they have copious hair on their necks which would give them a more mannish appearance. There is of course the option of inventing my own pronoun set (he-she? She-he?), but I think that could irritate readers.


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## buyjupiter (Feb 15, 2014)

Jabrosky said:


> So I have designed this race of aliens whom I call the Soljuws. They're supposed to be these slothful and obese slug-like creatures whose excessively comfortable, futuristic standard of living depends fundamentally on the enslavement and exploitation of other races, most especially prehistoric humanity. Think of them as Hutts gone hi-tech and imperialist. Anyway, one of the Soljuws' unique characteristics is that they're "genderqueer", which in their case means that they really have only one reproductive sex. They even regard humans' two-sex reproductive system as disgusting and barbaric.
> 
> The question I want to raise at the moment is what would be appropriate pronouns for a race of genderqueer aliens? I don't like "it" as that makes them seem like wild animals, but on the other hand neither "he" or "she" would fit them all that well. They speak with shrill voices which might sound feminine, but on the other hand they have copious hair on their necks which would give them a more mannish appearance. There is of course the option of inventing my own pronoun set (he-she? She-he?), but I think that could irritate readers.



He-she or She-he are offensive. Especially since they're used in an extremely derogatory way to refer to trans folk. It negates their gender identity to refer to them by the incorrect pronoun at worst and at best it says a person doesn't care to find out what their gender pronoun preference is.

You have the option of using "them/they/their" which is what I personally would go with as it's a very common pronoun...but you also have the option of ze/sie which is a bit less common unless you're very familiar with the trans community and/or are trans yourself. You could go with "one"...which I do a lot, if I'm not sure about gender or if I'm sure that gender pronouns might be an issue but I don't know what the person prefers.


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## Smith (Feb 15, 2014)

Have you looked at pre-existing gender neutral pronouns that have already been invented to fill this gap? A quick google search brought me here, which has a rundown of some of the pros and cons of some invented pronouns. You might find something there that feels right for your world.

Having written a gender neutral species myself, I chose to make up my own, but I fear it falls into the trap of sounding too like 'his' and implying a certain gender, so you might want to go with something that's definitely not similar to him or her.


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## Svrtnsse (Feb 15, 2014)

I read a piece of text once where they used the _Xe _version. It was fairly short and it annoyed me no end. It may be that in a longer story I would have gotten used to it, but it would have given me a bad first impression of it.

The main reason is that I'm unused to the word. Pronouns are used all over the place and having this weird new little word pop up all over the place got on my nerves.


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## Jabrosky (Feb 15, 2014)

I've thought more about this and have decided that it would depend on whose perspective I'm writing from. The "them/they/their" system buyjupiter mentioned might work if I'm writing from the Soljuws' point of view, but I reckon their human subjects would prefer to think of them as "its" (the Soljuws are their oppressors after all).

I must admit that I didn't make the Soljuws genderqueer out of a decision to explore gender politics in depth. They're meant to be a satire on modern civilization and certain trends within it, and I want to get back at all those social justice phonies that permeate certain corners of the Internet.


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## buyjupiter (Feb 15, 2014)

Jabrosky said:


> I must admit that I didn't make the Soljuws genderqueer out of a decision to explore gender politics in depth. They're meant to be a satire on modern civilization and certain trends within it, and I want to get back at all those social justice phonies that permeate certain corners of the Internet.



I'm trying to read this statement in a positive light, but I am really struggling to do so. 

There are people who identify as non-gender binary and have done since the beginning of time. It's why there are several societies with a gender neutral option in their language. 

I don't even know why you'd want to "get back" at anyone who is trying to advocate for a more diverse and beautiful world where people don't have to be afraid to be themselves.


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## Jabrosky (Feb 15, 2014)

buyjupiter said:


> I'm trying to read this statement in a positive light, but I am really struggling to do so.
> 
> There are people who identify as non-gender binary and have done since the beginning of time. It's why there are several societies with a gender neutral option in their language.
> 
> I don't even know why you'd want to "get back" at anyone who is trying to advocate for a more diverse and beautiful world where people don't have to be afraid to be themselves.


I'm not poking fun at transgender or genderqueer people _per se_. I know a few transgender individuals whom I like as people, and by and large I don't see how genuine transgender people could harm me or society at large. Unfortunately I have this hunch that claiming to be transgender, genderqueer, "pansexual", or whatever has become trendy nowadays, especially among teenagers who are desperate to portray themselves as somehow special. It's these phonies I want to get back at (well, that and the whole obesity-positive movement).


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## Queshire (Feb 15, 2014)

Be careful you don't build them as a Strawman. Personally I would go with He. Yes, it's incorrect, but I think it would be the best choice. It tends to be the default pronoun for the English language, and.... would a human ever want to get close enough to be able to tell that they're wrong? o.0


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## buyjupiter (Feb 15, 2014)

Jabrosky said:


> I'm not poking fun at transgender or genderqueer people _per se_. I know a few transgender individuals whom I like as people, and by and large I don't see how genuine transgender people could harm me or society at large. Unfortunately I have this hunch that claiming to be transgender, genderqueer, "pansexual", or whatever has become trendy nowadays, especially among teenagers who are desperate to portray themselves as somehow special. It's these phonies I want to get back at (well, that and the whole obesity-positive movement).



Um...ok then. 

This is the same argument that I've seen folks make about how they're not racist, _because they know black people and have a few as friends._ Not buying it for that one, not buying it this time either.

Your *perception* of someone's identity does not mean that their identity is false. 

I don't mean for this to get off track, but oy vey, if that's how you really feel about people who don't buy into the binary gender system, maybe you shouldn't write about it.


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## A. E. Lowan (Feb 15, 2014)

buyjupiter said:


> Um...ok then.
> 
> This is the same argument that I've seen folks make about how they're not racist, _because they know black people and have a few as friends._ Not buying it for that one, not buying it this time either.
> 
> ...



I have to agree with Jupiter here.  You're reasoning is on shaky ground.  I'm really struggling with my reactions both to this discussion and to your extremely negative depiction of this species.  I feel that, as a reader, I would be very offended and disturbed if I came across them in your writing and it would reflect negatively on you as a writer.  If you had anything at all positive to say in this story, it would be lost, as would anything else you had to write.  You would lose me entirely as a reader.


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## Feo Takahari (Feb 15, 2014)

Going along with the derail because it's a more interesting topic.

I think the problem is that you're not connecting your villains enough to what you want to insult. If your goal is to mock people who claim a bunch of identities to make themselves feel more special, you probably should be focusing in on villains who claim a bunch of identities, rather than making your story about villains who're fat, greedy imperialists. It just comes off as weird.

Given your background and interests, you might be able to pull off the same theme more effectively with a focus on culture rather than gender. You embrace African cultures, and you get angry when people ignore the contributions those cultures have made. Why not try out villains who pillage other cultures, taking their most valuable ideas for themselves, while at the same time denigrating those cultures and treating them as inferior? If you're positive towards the cultures being pillaged, this becomes a more nuanced message--not "people who claim certain identities are bad," but "people who steal other people's identities are bad." (You said that you know and like some queer people, so this can become a positive statement in their favor.)

I should note that I've wrestled with something similar. I wanted to write a story condemning the concept of sin, particularly as presented in works like Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. I'm most familiar with the concept in terms of Christianity, so I was afraid the story would come off as anti-Christian. As such, I focused in entirely on sin and punishment--the villain is bad because she wants to punish people, not because of any more general aspect of her beliefs. I'm still not sure if I pulled it off, but I think the story was better for the effort.

P.S. Strictly speaking, the aliens you're describing would be termed agender, not genderqueer.


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## Jabrosky (Feb 15, 2014)

Edit: please delete this post


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## Jabrosky (Feb 15, 2014)

Feo Takahari said:


> Going along with the derail because it's a more interesting topic.  I think the problem is that you're not connecting your villains enough to what you want to insult. If your goal is to mock people who claim a bunch of identities to make themselves feel more special, you probably should be focusing in on villains who claim a bunch of identities, rather than making your story about villains who're fat, greedy imperialists. It just comes off as weird.  Given your background and interests, you might be able to pull off the same theme more effectively with a focus on culture rather than gender. You embrace African cultures, and you get angry when people ignore the contributions those cultures have made. Why not try out villains who pillage other cultures, taking their most valuable ideas for themselves, while at the same time denigrating those cultures and treating them as inferior? If you're positive towards the cultures being pillaged, this becomes a more nuanced message--not "people who claim certain identities are bad," but "people who steal other people's identities are bad." (You said that you know and like some queer people, so this can become a positive statement in their favor.)


To be honest this actually sounds like a more  interesting idea than what I described in my OP.

I must confess that I probably suffer from latent transphobia. I wish I didn't, but somehow the mere thought of it makes me think of certain jerks with whom I used to get into fights.


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## AnneL (Feb 15, 2014)

I was going to suggest "ze" too when I read the topic headline, but I agree with Jupiter and A.E. that there's an underlying more problematic issue than appropriate pronoun here. One of the things about gender identity that a lot of people misunderstand is that gender is more than sexual reproduction. Lots of standard forms that ask a person to check their gender instead of their sex reinforce the societal perception that there is no difference.

"Male bodies produce more testosterone than female bodies" is mostly just about sex. "Women can't be good lawyers because they are too emotional" is a statement about gender. (I'm sure even this is an oversimplification that misses a lot of subtleties.)

FWIW, my article on racial diversity is up on the Scribes home page today, and a lot of it probably applies to this topic. One of the links -- The Future Fire editors' blog: Guest post: Ways of Seeing -- is a great discussion about what "otherness" means when it's your identity.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 15, 2014)

Regarding some of the opinions and related comments in this thread, please keep in mind that all members are required to discuss topics with respect. You don't have to understand, or condone, the choices or behaviors of another, but you must treat them with the dignity and respect deserved by another human being.    

When discussing opinions, try to understand how the expression of your viewpoint might be offensive to another member, especially a member who might be part of the group your unintentionally maligning. Even better, go into the discussion with an open mind...you might learn something.    

Your fellow scribes can be a treasure trove of information because of our differences. Please respect them as such.


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## Jabrosky (Feb 15, 2014)

I do apologize for any and all offense my posts may have caused in this thread. Jupiter is right that I am not ready to write about themes like those raised in my OP . I am sorry.


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## Hainted (Feb 18, 2014)

Back to original question. For humans referring to the race we would default to He. For them the most popular pronouns would be I,Me, You, Us, and Them. When in need of a word similar to He,She or it I would imagine them just saying One.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Feb 18, 2014)

Greg Egan used ve/vis/ver, which I liked. "Ve went to the store to get ver favorite candy." "It's vis problem, not mine."

Of course you could avoid the issue entirely by not using pronouns—maybe the Soljuws instead always use proper names, or use titles or styles or other forms of address. "Your eminence is correct," "The eminence wishes to see the eminence's clothes." If they're a sort of oligarchy slaveowning race, I can see this kind of excessive honorific working. Yeah, it takes longer to say, but the Soljuws demand it!


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## Svrtnsse (Feb 18, 2014)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Greg Egan used ve/vis/ver, which I liked. "Ve went to the store to get ver favorite candy." "It's vis problem, not mine."



Personally, I find this annoying enough that I probably wouldn't even finish the book. In the end it's what the writer is comfortable with though. Some people won't have an issue with it and some people will. 
I mentioned in an earlier post that I might get use to it if I stuck with it - but I'm not sure I would.

If it were me, I'd go with they/their - but that's me.


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## Steerpike (Feb 18, 2014)

Svrtnsse said:


> Personally, I find this annoying enough that I probably wouldn't even finish the book. In the end it's what the writer is comfortable with though. Some people won't have an issue with it and some people will.
> I mentioned in an earlier post that I might get use to it if I stuck with it - but I'm not sure I would.
> 
> If it were me, I'd go with they/their - but that's me.



It is from his book _Diaspora_​, which is quite worth the read if you want to try something different


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## CupofJoe (Feb 19, 2014)

Hainted said:


> For them the most popular pronouns  would be I,Me, You, Us, and Them. When in need of a word similar to  He,She or it I would imagine them just saying One.



I would  guess that there would be two version of You too, along the lines of the  French language, with a personal/close "tu" and general/distant "vous".

I can also see that given personal names would be highly important and the default way of addressing others. You wouldn't refer to someone by pronoun but by their name. and that would make me think that if you couldn't there would be a word meaning "the name of the person I don't know the name of..." as their equivalent of him or her.



Benjamin  Clayborne said:


> Greg Egan used ve/vis/ver, which I liked. "Ve went to  the store to get ver favorite candy." "It's vis problem, not  mine."



I think that like Svrtness, this would get to me, but for maybe other  reasons. I see ve/vis/ver as lightly disguised he/his/her. That  might not be what Greg Egan wanted but I think there is still an implied  gender.


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## Steerpike (Feb 19, 2014)

I don't think the pronouns come across as implying gender in the book, since each of them is used to refer to the same individual. Reading in an implied gender would be self-contradictory. This pronoun set was actually created as a genderless pronoun set back in the 1980s by Keri Hulme.


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## CupofJoe (Feb 19, 2014)

_Upon reflection_ I would say that there is an implied gender, its just that its not male or female. For me it comes across as "other".
The more I have thought about this the more I think that any society that was truly without gender would use personal pronouns such as I, One, Me, Mine You, Yours, Tu, Vous, Us, They, and Them and probably many more besides. They would create differences and definitions that are not apparent to those of us that live in a world dominated by the idea of 2 genders [sort of like there are supposed to be 65 words for snow in the Inuit languages].


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## Gryphos (Feb 19, 2014)

One thing to consider is from what perspective the aliens are being viewed from. For example, to humans a truly genderless species is such a strange concept that a person viewing a group of the aliens would look for subtle ways in which one could be more male or female than another. Perhaps one's voice sounds a little bit more feminine than another, so that human would always think of that one as a 'her' and the other as a 'he'.


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## Queshire (Feb 19, 2014)

CupofJoe said:


> The more I have thought about this the more I think that any society that was truly without gender would use personal pronouns such as I, One, Me, Mine You, Yours, Tu, Vous, Us, They, and Them and probably many more besides. They would create differences and definitions that are not apparent to those of us that live in a world dominated by the idea of 2 genders [sort of like there are supposed to be 65 words for snow in the Inuit languages].




Just from the information given, I don't see this happening. I think the 65 words for snow is supposed to be just a myth, but as someone living in Minnesota, I do know that there's a big difference between freshly fallen snow and the type of snow that's been pounded down by a car driving over it. Trust me, such a difference is important when you're th guy forced to shovel it. =_= The point is having a bunch of different words for snow would come about by snow, and the different types of snow, comes about when snow is important to your culture. If you only have one sex then there's not even the need for His and Her pronouns. They still can have a bunch of different pronouns, but it would be the result of other parts of their culture instead of just their sex.

If I remember correctly, in Japanese they rarely use he / she / his / her / etc in day to day conversation which is why you can have characters like Crona from the manga Soul Eater whose gender is left ambiguous.


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## CupofJoe (Feb 19, 2014)

And the Navajo [if I remember correctly] have a different word for an Uncle on the Father's and on the Mother's as these two people have different responsibilities to the child. These are the differences I talking about. To many cultures one word will suffice, to others there will be a need for many. 
When it makes a difference, then there will be a difference. If it doesn't then it won't. As writers we are free to choose.
D&L Eddings had their wolf characters refer to themselves as "One" and not by a given name and all the horses thought of themselves as "We" because they were part of a herd... again if I remember correctly.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Feb 19, 2014)

Steerpike said:


> It is from his book _Diaspora_​, which is quite worth the read if you want to try something different



High five. _Diaspora_ is, to date, my favorite novel of all time (insofar as you can have just one favorite novel... in reality it's a constantly warping vortex of three or four books).



			
				CupOfJoe said:
			
		

> I see ve/vis/ver as lightly disguised he/his/her.



Actually, it's equivalent to he/his/his or she/hers/her. "vis" (from "his" or "hers") is the possessive pronoun ("That book is vis."), and "ver" (from "his" or "her") is the possessive signifier ("That is ver book.")

In _Diaspora_, the referenced entities (including most of the characters) are actually AIs, most of which were born from pure code, so they don't have any gender characteristics at all. So they all refer to each other with ve, ver, vis, etc.


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