# Bohemian, Burgundian, Spartan and more?



## Ban (Sep 18, 2017)

Hey everyone, here are two things I like: 'words' and 'cultures'.  Words such as the ones in the title that describe people and places combine these two things. And so to me words derived from nationalities carry a certain beauty and meaning stronger than most descriptors. It's probably a personal thing or maybe it's not. Perhaps it is universal. I'm not sure because I'm not an anthropologist. Anyways my problem is that I run out of words like these rather quickly. So I ask you guys. Can you please add more to my list? 

Any suggestion appreciated 

Edit: I should specify. I am looking for words that can refer both to one's nationality or culture and also to some alternate meaning. E.g the word 'Spartan' can refer to both being from Sparta and to a frugal, no-nonsense lifestyle or design.


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## skip.knox (Sep 18, 2017)

I'm not sure what you're after here. There are lots of names of peoples. Breton. Frisian. Cumbrian. Slovene. But I'm not sure what to make of any of them. Can you elaborate?


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## Ban (Sep 18, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> I'm not sure what you're after here. There are lots of names of peoples. Breton. Frisian. Cumbrian. Slovene. But I'm not sure what to make of any of them. Can you elaborate?



True but those don't have a strong alternate meaning to them. I should have elaborated in the original post. When someone is called Burgundian this can refer both to his nationality but also, and for me more interestingly, to a love of fine living. Similarly  Spartan can refer to both being from Sparta and to a frugal, no-nonsense lifestyle or design. I would like to know more words like these, but I'm not a native english speaker so I believe that I might be missing out on quite a few.


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## skip.knox (Sep 18, 2017)

OK. Thought that might be it. Can't say I've ever heard the Burgundian one (I wonder if that's 15thc), but yes on Bohemian and Spartan. Bohemian is the only one that has really morphed. Spartan is more like a national stereotype. If we go down that road we get into some uncomfortable territory, though. And different cultures have different stereotypes. Americans might think something if you say Sicilian (William Goldman did!), but probably not Venetian. But an Italian would certainly have a definite image in mind with that word. 

Scotsman (especially when used that way as distinct from, say, Scottish) has overtones to it. Welshman used to; don't know if it still does. I wonder if Catalan means something to a Castilian, or Breton to a Frenchman, or Frisian to a Dutchman. Germans definitely have stereotypes about Bavarians and ... what is the term for north Germans? Norddeutsch? Plattedeutsch? And, of course, everyone has a stereotype for the Swiss, despite the noticeable differences within the cantons.

Anyway, you might want to be careful about using these. It would be okay to make use of the stereotypes to portray a Burgundian, but just using the term without explanation or qualification may not result in the understanding you expect.


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## skip.knox (Sep 18, 2017)

OK. Thought that might be it. Can't say I've ever heard the Burgundian one (I wonder if that's 15thc), but yes on Bohemian and Spartan. Bohemian is the only one that has really morphed. Spartan is more like a national stereotype. If we go down that road we get into some uncomfortable territory, though. And different cultures have different stereotypes. Americans might think something if you say Sicilian (William Goldman did!), but probably not Venetian. But an Italian would certainly have a definite image in mind with that word. 

Scotsman (especially when used that way as distinct from, say, Scottish) has overtones to it. Welshman used to; don't know if it still does. I wonder if Catalan means something to a Castilian, or Breton to a Frenchman, or Frisian to a Dutchman. Germans definitely have stereotypes about Bavarians and ... what is the term for north Germans? Norddeutsch? Plattedeutsch? And, of course, everyone has a stereotype for the Swiss, despite the noticeable differences within the cantons.

Anyway, you might want to be careful about using these. It would be okay to make use of the stereotypes to portray a Burgundian, but just using the term without explanation or qualification may not result in the understanding you expect.


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## Ban (Sep 18, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> OK. Thought that might be it. Can't say I've ever heard the Burgundian one (I wonder if that's 15thc), but yes on Bohemian and Spartan. Bohemian is the only one that has really morphed. Spartan is more like a national stereotype. If we go down that road we get into some uncomfortable territory, though. And different cultures have different stereotypes. Americans might think something if you say Sicilian (William Goldman did!), but probably not Venetian. But an Italian would certainly have a definite image in mind with that word.
> 
> Scotsman (especially when used that way as distinct from, say, Scottish) has overtones to it. Welshman used to; don't know if it still does. I wonder if Catalan means something to a Castilian, or Breton to a Frenchman, or Frisian to a Dutchman. Germans definitely have stereotypes about Bavarians and ... what is the term for north Germans? Norddeutsch? Plattedeutsch? And, of course, everyone has a stereotype for the Swiss, despite the noticeable differences within the cantons.
> 
> Anyway, you might want to be careful about using these. It would be okay to make use of the stereotypes to portray a Burgundian, but just using the term without explanation or qualification may not result in the understanding you expect.



I fear you are probably correct that it is very easy to fall into stereotypes with this. Yet the ones that you mention still don't have a true,  independent meaning beyond their nationalities I feel. Sure someone could use American to describe someone and there certainly are some values associated with the word depending on the culture of the one sayin it. But American can not really be used as an independent word to describe someone or something that is not American... you know? I'm probably being overly specific with my request. There's a chance that I might have already exhausted the words that fit the bill.

Burgundian is primarily a descriptor that we use here in the southern parts of the Netherlands. It's a common belief among us that we have retained some sort of Burgundian-ishness through our cuisine and way of living. For some reason I thought the word meant the same in English, but perhaps not.
Well I guess I can be the one to introduce this new meaning of the word 

As a Dutchman I can say that being Frisian is ocassionally used to describe a stoic if stubborn person. It's not often done though.


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## skip.knox (Sep 18, 2017)

That's cool about Burgundian. Definitely no connotation like that in English, but I'm more sure than ever this association must date to the glory days of the 15thc.

I hear what you are saying about the other terms, but I think it's a bit on the wrong foot. Spartan has come to mean severe, stoic, courageous, all that, but its origin is every bit as nation-specific as is Welshman or Burgundian. It's just that so many centuries now separate us, people can say "spartan" without even thinking of Greeks. 

As for Bohemian, that is most definitely nation-specific. The image of bohemianism comes from a time when Bohemia was still its own identity and Prague was the center for a particular kind of artist-intellectual. Again, for many (Americans, at least), we may use the word without thinking at all about an area of the Czech Republic, but that's where it is.

And American does have its connotations, especially when used as the Ugly American. 

Anyway, I think I see where you were headed. If there was a whole constellation of descriptive adjectives that stemmed from nations or peoples, that would be a nice little catalog to have. I'm pretty sure none exists and anyway there would be too many cultural variations for it to be useful in story telling.

But now you've brought it up, I wonder how a word like "bohemian" plays in Greek or Norwegian or Gaelic or whatever. And if those languages have their own analogous words.

I'm always fascinated by how different languages describe the same thing (e.g., the English Channel is only that to the English; to the French, it's The Sleeve).


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## Ban (Sep 18, 2017)

Oh it has to be a 15th century thing, that's around the time that our little country was Burgundian territory. I wonder if the French have a similar connotation to the word. 

Indeed it seems more and more clear that the passage of time is an essential factor to creating the specific sort of meanings that I am looking for. Perhaps it is even necessary for the host nation to stop existing before the word can shift from describing a nationality to describing a lifestyle/trait/sphere. The Burgundians, Bohemians and Spartans have all ceased to be a political entity. Maybe I could find some more obscure words by looking through a list of nations that once existed. I'm not above trying to revive terms.

Anyways I think your input was very helpful Skip. Thank you. Although I am a bit sad to learn that the English language is not as vast as I always hope it to be.

Oh and concerning the channel. We Dutchies just call it 'the Channel'. Maybe even that can be traced back all the way to historic enmity between the UK and the Netherlan


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## skip.knox (Sep 18, 2017)

I found another one for you. Heard it referenced on the news.

Byzantine

As in complex with overtones of being unnecessarily complex. I've never heard it applied to a person, but it does get applied to institutions and processes.

And it meets your possible criterion of referencing a people or country that no longer exists.


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## CupofJoe (Sep 19, 2017)

The name Vandal comes from a race that had a little issue or two  with Rome [Spain, North Africa etc...] and [almost uncertainly unfairly]  means someone that will wantonly destroy.
I've heard people being described a Vikings and Mongols but not in a positive way and nothing to do with the cultures. 
I've heard a Hammer called a "Polish Spanner". It is easy to slip from description to stereotype to racism. Even if it is just in the eyes of others...


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## skip.knox (Sep 19, 2017)

Ironically, the Vandals is the name of any number of college and high school football teams. I've always thought it odd to name your team after a people who were utterly crushed by the Byzantine general Belisarius.


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## Ban (Sep 19, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> Ironically, the Vandals is the name of any number of college and high school football teams. I've always thought it odd to name your team after a people who were utterly crushed by the Byzantine general Belisarius.



But how often would they encounter a byzantine these days? 


Anyways Vandal and Byzantine are both good ones I didn't think of. Thank you, they're going in my (currently quite small) list.


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## Corwynn (Sep 20, 2017)

There is also Gothic, which describes a particular aesthetic. Gothic style is characterized by darkness and elaborate design that often uses elongated shapes. The name has been used to describe styles of architecture, a literary genre, and a modern subculture. These connotations have very little to do with the actual Goths, who ceased to exist as a distinct culture by the time Gothic architecture made its appearance in the High Middle Ages, with most of the term's connotations being inspired by Gothic architecture and not the Gothic peoples.


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## pmmg (Sep 21, 2017)

I can think of a few more of these, but I am not sure how much people would enjoy the connotations connected to them. All of these words, though, I would avoid if I was writing about any place other then Earth itself.

There are also terms that have been used around historical or literary figures that have a similar feel. Gertrudian, for example, kind of means someone who is concerned only with their own comfort and blind to conditions of others.

Rabelaisian means kind of gross humor.


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## FifthView (Sep 21, 2017)

Philistine


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## Ban (Sep 21, 2017)

pmmg said:


> I can think of a few more of these, but I am not sure how much people would enjoy the connotations connected to them. All of these words, though, I would avoid if I was writing about any place other then Earth itself.
> 
> There are also terms that have been used around historical or literary figures that have a similar feel. Gertrudian, for example, kind of means someone who is concerned only with their own comfort and blind to conditions of others.
> 
> Rabelaisian means kind of gross humor.



I understand the concern but I should not be affected, because all of my projects are set on some variation of earth. Be it feudalistic post-apocalypse, scifi noir or neon-magic-cyber-something. I wouldn't use these words in a world where they make no sense.


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