# Questioning my own originality



## JamesTFHS (Apr 3, 2012)

So over the past 5 months i have been reading more then ever. i have also been working slowly on my novel as school and a short film kept me very busy over the last month. The biggest downside for me when i read i start to generate new ideas like the book has become a sort of fuel for my novel. now when i am reading i don't sit there and think i am going to steal everything written in this book i am reading i just daydream and suddenly realize i need to change a detail or two. 

now this is my problem i feel some of the changes i have made are too similar to what i have been reading and i would like someone else's opinion on this. I have deeply fallen in love with A Song of Ice and Fire and am now starting A Storm of Swords. while reading the first book i felt i needed to blur the line of good and evil from a black and white view to a more grey idea. 

That is not an issue i really like going in that direction versus a standard good versus evil story. some of the major changes i made was limiting magic from everyone can use it with no consequences to lots of limitations and a sort of physical "punishment" that comes with using magic. Such as becoming tired after doing a spell like in The Wheel of Time. i do push it a bit farther making Magic far more dangerous then i think other stories have done. You don't just get tired bones could suddenly break or a huge gash appears on your arm. is it too cliche to go with  this idea?

Also my map. My map went from being one huge continent in which almost all of my cultures live on to being two. This is the one that concerns me the most. to me it looks like i stole from Martin here. It might just be in my head but the change makes sense and allows me to do more with the final conflict and show the effects of that battle in a better way. Now the continents do look different then Martins and i did come up with an explanation to how the continents became the way they are. Another reason i went for a change in the continents was the controlling idea for the whole story changed with the shift from black and white to grey. i also needed to separate some of the cultures and give more room for everything and show more of a diversity. 

Does all this feel as if i am trying to mimic other writers and stories? And is it ok if a tiny similarity exists between your story and another but only if they are very subtle and not obvious like Paolini's?


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## Cinder (Apr 3, 2012)

Of course it's okay to be inspired by other writers. 

Concentrate on writing a story you love. When it's finished, the similarities between your novel and those you've been reading might only be subtle. If they're quite noticeable, change some things in the re-write/edit.  

It's really as simple as that. Don't be afraid to pinch a few ideas, just make sure you disguise them well.

I once read a really good article on this subject, but I can't find it at the moment. If I do, I'll post it here 

EDIT: I found it! http://hollylisle.com/how-to-legally-and-ethically-steal-ideas/ - it's really good, read it well.


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## Shockley (Apr 3, 2012)

Martin, from what I've seen, has been fairly open about taking influences from history, mythology and fantasy as a whole. It's more likely that you're just drawing from the same sources as Martin did, especially if you've only recently read his work.

 More to the point, we're writing in a genre that is far younger than any other. While fairy stories are nothing new, the tropes and memes of fantasy all originated within the last hundred or so years, and that means we're going to have a lot of similarity in our works before the genre completes branching. Let me point out a few things that might make you feel better about any similarities:

 - In my current story, I embrace all forms of fantasy. One of my main characters is named Morhault, which is a direct reference to an Arthurian knight (Morholt, somtimes rendered Morhaus). I'd like to write a light, comedic fantasy story one day based around Sir Topas and Olifant, characters from the Canterbury Tales. 

 - A shared favorite of Lewis and Tolkien was William Morris. One of Morris' characters was named Gandolf, and he wrote extensively about a horse named Silverfax. Another one of his characters was named King Peter. This isn't even the worst part of this - the Nibelung cycle is a Proto-German myth that shares a lot of characteristics with LotR (including a dragon with his horde, a magic ring, a broken sword (named Balmung, a word which has influenced more fantasy than most things) and a creature that is pursuing the main character (Alberich), which was cursed and corrupted by the treasure. 

 - Suzanne Collins has been taking a lot of flak lately for 'ripping off' Battle Royale. This is ironic as, by her own admission, she was ripping off the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur. This is a tradition of hers, as Gregor the Overlander was inspired by Alice in Wonderland (surprisingly).

 When we write any story, we are essentially telling a story that has already existed. It might not have existed in print or in that form, but we are just serving to take in all of this information that we have received and channeling it on to paper. Don't worry about similarities - that's to be expected.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Apr 3, 2012)

Frankly if you didn't question your originality I would probably question your ability as a writer.  I know how you feel though, I constantly feel I'm borrowing ideas from all over the place, and it gets disheartening, but I think in the creation process the nature of your writing will make it more "your own" simply because writers tend to be unique, even if ideas aren't.


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## Devor (Apr 3, 2012)

Sometimes a complete ripoff can even be okay. Compare Hamlet and the Lion King.


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## virtualmayham (Apr 3, 2012)

Yeah, don't question your ideas.  Of course your going to be influenced by things you've read, its how you've really learned to write fantasy!  For example, my writing is HEAVILY influenced by Tolkien, and JK Rowling.  Doesn't mean I don't have original ideas. Just flow with it.  Just cause you see something doesn't mean your reader will.  If it's to obvious, just re-write!


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## Agran Velion (Apr 3, 2012)

Your story actually sounds pretty original to me. The blurred line between good and evil isn't Martin's invention, although he was the one to use it the most (I was actually inspired by that as well). I wouldn't worry about being unoriginal, as every author gets inspirations and other ideas from the things he reads.

In my current WIP, the majority of the story was inspired by the TV show The Borgias, and the culture borrows strongly from The Italian Renaissance. I was also inspired by Martin as well, and have more or less completely abandoned the whole "good versus evil" concept as I've tired of it. The main characters can be mean at best, and nearly demonic and cruel at worst.


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## Mindfire (Apr 3, 2012)

Sometimes worrying too much about similarities between your work and someone else's can stifle your creativity. Don't bother about it too much. Obviously you can't, say, take the plot of Star Wars point for point, cut/paste it into a fantasy setting, add dragons and LOTR tropes and call it a day. That would be hideously derivative, which is why nobody does it. But the similarities that you've described between your work and Martin's are not enough to qualify as "hideously derivative". On the contrary, I say embrace your influences. I keep a running list of all the books (and movies and shows) that have influenced my work. Keeping track of my influences serves three purposes:

-It helps me to narrow down the kind of tone and feel I'm going for, which makes my work more consistent.
-Being conscious of my influences helps me not to get _too similar _to my influences. It's ok if I do something one of my favorite authors did, but I have to make sure to do it _my way_.
-Keeping track of my influences also gives me a handy list of comparable works to show someone when I start looking to get published.


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## Ghost (Apr 3, 2012)

JamesTFHS said:


> The biggest downside for me when i read i start to generate new ideas like the book has become a sort of fuel for my novel.



I find it helps to ignore new ideas. If the idea is any good, it will haunt you until you use it. When an idea stops being new and shiny, you might realize it wasn't great to begin with. Consider it a cooling off period. Just jot the idea down and move on.



JamesTFHS said:


> i do push it a bit farther making Magic far more dangerous then i think other stories have done. You don't just get tired bones could suddenly break or a huge gash appears on your arm. is it too cliche to go with  this idea?



"Cliche" and "not original" aren't the same thing. So what if someone has done something similar? I haven't read WoT in a really long time, so I don't know how similar the magic is. People often put a price on magic, but I don't know that I've seen it go to the extreme yours does. I think it's interesting. Ultimately, your approach will be different from someone else's, anyway.



JamesTFHS said:


> My map went from being one huge continent in which almost all of my cultures live on to being two. This is the one that concerns me the most. to me it looks like i stole from Martin here.



I'm not much of a map person, so a lot of fantasy maps look similar to me. Unless you follow the contours of Martin's lands very closely, I doubt anyone will be bothered by it. Martin doesn't have the market cornered on two-continent worlds. He wasn't the first to do it, and he won't be the last.



JamesTFHS said:


> Does all this feel as if i am trying to mimic other writers and stories? And is it ok if a tiny similarity exists between your story and another but only if they are very subtle and not obvious like Paolini's?



The more you write and the wider your influences, the less this will be a problem. It gets to the point that you have to tell your story without regard for who's done what before you. The story has to be yours. I don't mean you have to be the first to tell it, but it should mean something to you and you should tell as best you can. That's all.

Every story has several things in common with thousands of other stories. Don't worry about it.



Aidan of the tavern said:


> Frankly if you didn't question your originality I would probably question your ability as a writer.



Oh crap, I'm in trouble. :wink:


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## Leif GS Notae (Apr 3, 2012)

I know this solved it for me when I kept running into this stat. There are only 7 stories to be told, you are only telling the story in your voice the best way you know. If you accept this and do what needs to be done, you will do well with your efforts.

I've always struggled with reading fantasy books, not for fear of copying but destroying the book mechanically to expose every flaw and boon inside. 

I think I might be broken, who knows...? 

Anyway, take heart. Write your story. Let others worry if it is "original", because it never is.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 3, 2012)

You know what really sucks?  Inventing a riveting story full of your own creative ideas you have spent tons of time figuring out the particulars of... only to see the exact same plot (or your witty lines) used on a rerun episode of Legend of the Seeker or Star Trek Deep Space 9.  Damn.  I've been mostly influenced by the events of my life.... but can even my experiences be wholly unique?  Not a chance.  So roll with it, and when you get done, go back and look at the details and ask people you trust for an in-depth critique.  If you tell them of your fears, you will influence their opinions, so just let them read your work and see if anyone notices the connection to something else.  That should give you your answers.  I've had people critique my work and found out some of my names were similar to things I've never heard of, and knowing that allows me to change it later if I want something more unique.


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## Ivan (Apr 3, 2012)

Kurt Vonnegut once said that he ripped off Player Piano from Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, who ripped that off from Zamyatin's "We." All three are good books, and I don't think that anyone would say that the last two are worthless just because someone had the idea first. Do you think the very first guy to write a song about love got a patent on it, and nobody could touch it ever again? Of course not. There are always going to be similarities, often lots of them. For all that we cherish creativity and originality, at the same time we like certain patterns and plot methods and there's only so much you can do to get away from those.


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## Penpilot (Apr 4, 2012)

Steal from the best. Make it your own. Write a great story. Let everyone else worry about the rest.

As long as you're not writing a story about a simple farm boy name Duke Spacestroller who fights against the evil empire and Dirth Nader, you'll be fine.


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## Rullenzar (Apr 4, 2012)

It's inevitable that most ideas you think of have already been done in some way. Your job is to improve upon the ideas, make them your own, and present them differently then others before you. Another tactic is to read not just fantasy but horrors and mystery too so you can combine all the ideas together and make something fantastically interesting.


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## Amanita (Apr 4, 2012)

Our history professor showed us a tranlsation of an Ancient Egyptian papyrus. The person writing there was worried about the exact same thing. According to him, this was prove of the fact that Ancient Egypt was a culturally advanced society. 
Besides that, I don't have much to add to the stuff the others have been writing. Basic situations and things like "moral shades of grey" are not copyrighted by one author. Not everything that's been used before is cliche either.  Or else, one of the biggest cliches would be "the story has people in it and they're doing something."
Something that does bother me is if an author exactly copies another author's view of a certain kind of mystical being, but even with this approach, many are successful enough.


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## Saigonnus (Apr 4, 2012)

I feel the same way sometimes, like everything I am writing has been done before. I realize in the most basic sense it already has, William Shakespeare wrote the basis for all of our modern fantasy, drama, romance and action stories and not much originality has come since then. If those tens or hundreds of thousands of writers have made money writing between then and now, anyone can and I just keep going forward 1000 words at a time.


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## Ireth (Apr 4, 2012)

The author of Ecclesiastes said it best -- "What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; there is nothing new under the sun." (1:9) _Everything_ is derivative.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Apr 4, 2012)

Saigonnus said:


> I feel the same way sometimes, like everything I am writing has been done before. I realize in the most basic sense it already has, William Shakespeare wrote the basis for all of our modern fantasy, drama, romance and action stories and not much originality has come since then. If those tens or hundreds of thousands of writers have made money writing between then and now, anyone can and I just keep going forward 1000 words at a time.



Most of the tropes and story elements in Shakespeare's plays were already centuries or millennia old by that point. Shakespeare didn't invent much; he _reused_ fantastically well. (And he had a killer prose style.)


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## Steerpike (Apr 5, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Most of the tropes and story elements in Shakespeare's plays were already centuries or millennia old by that point. Shakespeare didn't invent much; he _reused_ fantastically well. (And he had a killer prose style.)



This is true. And I disagree that there hasn't been much originality since the 1600s. I think there has been a great deal of it, in fact. You may have some basic elements at the core of various stories, but there is a lot of room for originality in the layers that you build upon those base elements.


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## kadenaz (Apr 5, 2012)

Start from a main concept, don't start from a generic dreaming that will be surely influenced by all the books you read.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Apr 6, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> This is true. And I disagree that there hasn't been much originality since the 1600s. I think there has been a great deal of it, in fact. You may have some basic elements at the core of various stories, but there is a lot of room for originality in the layers that you build upon those base elements.



I would say that most of the room for originality is reinterpreting old story elements in light of cultural/historical developments. _The Social Network_ is a wonderfully original movie, even though the themes it deals with (ambition, betrayal, desire for acceptance) are as old as time, because it manages to so perfectly mirror our perceptions of the events depicted.


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## Steerpike (Apr 6, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> I would say that most of the room for originality is reinterpreting old story elements in light of cultural/historical developments. _The Social Network_ is a wonderfully original movie, even though the themes it deals with (ambition, betrayal, desire for acceptance) are as old as time, because it manages to so perfectly mirror our perceptions of the events depicted.



Yeah, I think the elements are established, and it will be hard to create a story that doesn't, at its most basic level, consist of elements that have been used in the past repeatedly. But as you say there is a lot of room for originality in how one presents those elements. In Fantasy, I think that extends to a lot of the details of world-building, magic systems, and the like, where you can have a lot of room for original input, even though the themes you are dealing with in your story are timeless.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Apr 6, 2012)

anihow said:


> You know what really sucks?  Inventing a riveting story full of your own creative ideas you have spent tons of time figuring out the particulars of... only to see the exact same plot (or your witty lines) used on a rerun episode of Legend of the Seeker or Star Trek Deep Space 9.  Damn.  I've been mostly influenced by the events of my life.... but can even my experiences be wholly unique?  Not a chance.  So roll with it, and when you get done, go back and look at the details and ask people you trust for an in-depth critique.  If you tell them of your fears, you will influence their opinions, so just let them read your work and see if anyone notices the connection to something else.  That should give you your answers.  I've had people critique my work and found out some of my names were similar to things I've never heard of, and knowing that allows me to change it later if I want something more unique.


Been there! After spending a year writing a story which, in part, involves the MC going back in time and meeting his future wife during her childhood, I thought I did something really cute that hadn't been done. The characters had this brother-sister-like relationship, and I was proud of how original I was with that piece of the story.

Then "The Time Traveler's Wife" became famous.

I stopped worrying about "originality" after that. Good lesson for me!


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Apr 6, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Yeah, I think the elements are established, and it will be hard to create a story that doesn't, at its most basic level, consist of elements that have been used in the past repeatedly. But as you say there is a lot of room for originality in how one presents those elements. In Fantasy, I think that extends to a lot of the details of world-building, magic systems, and the like, where you can have a lot of room for original input, even though the themes you are dealing with in your story are timeless.



The other thing I always try to remind myself of is that most readers haven't read and seen everything. So what if your story has a similar plot to a previous book? As long as it's not outright plagiarism, people will enjoy reading it, and you usually have the advantage that your writing style can be more current and therefore more palatable stylistically. I'm rereading _Pride and Prejudice_ now; it draws the characters wonderfully, but the prose takes a lot of work for me to parse. I'd probably enjoy the story a lot more if it was written in a prose style that's easier for me to read. (I do realize that some of the love of the book is because of its prose style, but eventually a line has to be drawn between preserving the author's words, and making the story intelligible. If it's a colossal amount of work to get through, is that really better than having the character and story preserved but the words more accessible?)

For most writers, I don't think the goal is to be utterly original; I think the goal is to write something that a substantial number of people enjoy reading. If that's the goal, then trying to be utterly original isn't even on the radar. Not everything people read has to be a life-changing book; people need periodic infusions of entertainment, even if it's something they've more or less read before. Nobody would expect every meal to consist of things you've never eaten before, nor is it reasonable to expect that all entertainment is completely new.


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## Lorna (Apr 7, 2012)

I've found the more I read I find likenesses of ideas that I thought were 'original' in nearly every book. I guess there's only a fixed number of ideas / structures out there, it's how they're put together into a new and exciting whole that constitutes the originality.


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## S J Lee (Jul 3, 2020)

Pablo *Picasso* is often quoted as saying: “*Good artists copy*, *great artists steal*.”
Eddie Van Halen once said "There are only 13 notes, everything has been done before, but your style is your own"... or something
It would be a mistake to avoid reading widely because you were afraid of being influenced
On the other hand, many publishers / directors etc might refuse to look at unsolicited scripts because they are terrified of being accused later of stealing something......

It would be better to read both good and bad books... understand WHY a bad book is bad, and why a good book is good... avoid the mistakes of the bad, and be influenced by good ones that suit you. Then make sure you have changed enough to avoid infringements of copyright.....

avoid cliche, but use archtypes.....

EG, why not write like a bit like GRRM, but BE BETTER than him? Me, I am writing something like his, but simpler, and far more unashamedly heroic... me, I feel GRRM is onto something with his POV and chapter naming system, and the way people get killed off.... however, his cynicism annoys me a bit... cynicism with insight is good, cynicism for its own sake is not... and his world-building isn't very well thought out. How on earth are the Ironmen a great naval power when their islands are too small for proper forests? Why didn't the Targaryens disarm the private armies of the other lords? For hundreds of years, the Ts had supremacy, but they let their dragons die out and suddenly all the local knights feel no loyalty at all to the "king", but to the local warlords... completely unrealistic compared to REAL English history.. eg Henry VII beat Richard III because the private army of the Stanleys changed sides.... could you imagine someone like the Stanleys deciding the fate of England in Elizabeth I's day, just two generations later? I think not....

Be influenced, and be BETTER!


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## S J Lee (Jul 3, 2020)

AS for the OP point that "the magic of books seems to die a bit when you learn to analyse things and understand HOW books are written", this is both a blessing and a curse.... but it is better to be an aware being than not....

Ignorance is bliss... but is bliss a higher good than contemplation and awareness? Would you rather be a drunken fool having a good time, or a genius who refuses to be soothed with alcohol to shut him up?

Do rainbows and thunder and lightning seem less magnificent if you are an educated person who knows they are not magical? Does music seem boring to a trained musician who sees the resemblances with 1000s of similar songs? Does a chef enjoy food less when he takes one bite and immediately knows how the soup was made, and how much it cost? There is no easy answer.....

Lots of people hated GOT on HBO S 8..... saying it was mere spectacle and all inner consistency and plausibility was thrown away... people hated it, and they were probably right. Or you could just eat your popcorn and enjoy the show. It's up to you. But would they have been better off if they had been so ignorant as to not even notice? No, they would not....

IF you saw Euron washed up on the beach JUST as Jamie was sneaking into the secret tunnel, you could either A) go with the drama and enjoy it, or B) say this is an utterly ridiculous coincidence... a really good writer would SEE the coincidence and FIX IT... there are 1000 ways to explain it, but if you cannot even see the problem your work will always be inferior....

The more insight you have, the more room for a meaningful variation you have.....

I think it was Grant Morrison who said that he had a huge collection of "1970s heroes in Spandex comics" and one day he realised that they were all written by guys not as smart as himself, sitting in a room and sniggering as they came up with cliffhangers to make fools keep on buying them... he tore them all into pieces until he had shreds up to his ankles, and swore to write comics as they SHOULD be done.....

You can either consume the product or be like Gail Simone and her "women in refrigerators" insights... she might not be "right" or "better",but at least she won't blindly copy tropes... at the cost of not settling for what is regurgitated in front of her.... there is no easy answer!


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## Miles Lacey (Jul 3, 2020)

Any fool can cook a steak.  The difference between a fool and a master chef is what they do with the steak.  The unique blends of flavors from an assortment of spices, herbs and whatever other ingredients the master chef uses make a huge difference between meh and a culinary orgasm.

Think of the steak as the genre, the cooking process as the writing of the basic fantasy tropes and the ingredients that you add to the steak to make it taste mind-blowingly amazing as the elements of the story that you contribute that separates it from what others are doing.  

Sometimes adding your own twist to the steak may make people sick just as taking a risk by adding your own unique twist to your writing might go down badly with readers.  The point is to feel the fears and doubts about whether you may be following the masters of the genre too closely or not being original enough, get on with writing that story and, when it's complete, see what you've come up with.  You many be surprised at what you've cooked up.


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## WooHooMan (Jul 3, 2020)

This thread is from eight years ago.  I don’t think OP even uses this forum anymore.


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