# How much is too much?



## Rikilamaro (Mar 21, 2012)

Here's the question. My series is a YA fantasy involving shape-shifters. i have explained their shifting ability as a genetic difference between them and humans. I went into an entire explanation of the genetics behind it, referencing the Human Genome Project, and lots of research mumbo-jumbo. So one main character is explaining to the other. The problem I am having is making it less like a lecture and more like a conversation. Do you really think YA's care about the specifics, or should should I (for lack of a better phrase) dumb it down? It's  not information that they couldn't learn in school, but it's definitely detailed.

Opinions?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Rik


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## Androxine Vortex (Mar 21, 2012)

Rikilamaro said:


> Here's the question. My series is a YA fantasy involving shape-shifters. i have explained their shifting ability as a genetic difference between them and humans. I went into an entire explanation of the genetics behind it, referencing the Human Genome Project, and lots of research mumbo-jumbo. So one main character is explaining to the other. The problem I am having is making it less like a lecture and more like a conversation. Do you really think YA's care about the specifics, or should should I (for lack of a better phrase) dumb it down? It's  not information that they couldn't learn in school, but it's definitely detailed.
> 
> Opinions?
> 
> ...



I think you need a little bit of both. Make it very informative but don't go on and on and on. I think that if you don't go into any real detail at all, then that would just be kind of lazy. I really liked the idea that you did research into the Genome Project and stuff like that and I really think if you explain it then it will seem more probable and understandable to the readers. 

Maybe don't throw in ALL the more scientific words, maybe use other terms or words that are more common and understandable. It would be like a really smart scientist trying to explain something very complicated to a bunch of kids, so he can't expect them to know all these terms and things he knows. So yes I suggest you "dumb it down" but as long as you make it entertaining to read, then it should be fine. Good luck!

Edit : Maybe have the other character stop the MC and say something like, "X? What does X mean?" or "What do you mean by X?" These small interruptive breaks will make it seem more like a conversation rather than he/she just rambling on and on


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## Barsook (Mar 21, 2012)

That would be too much for YA.  Maybe just have one or two sentences (to five) explaining what it is with the science.  A good example is how Dr. B, in the book ,_Slayers_ by C. J. Hill, explained how the Slayer DNA is changed when there is a dragon around.

EDIT: Or do what Androxine Vortex said in his Edit.


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## Queshire (Mar 21, 2012)

Well... I don't really think that just a difference in genetics could actually lead to shape shifting, so I say the vague-er the better. Just so long as it's internally consistent it could run on magic pixie dust for all it matters.


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## Hominid (Mar 21, 2012)

I agree with Androxine Vortex's edit. Just because it's for YA audiences doesn't mean it should be "dumbed down."


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## Anders Ã„mting (Mar 21, 2012)

Rikilamaro said:


> Here's the question. My series is a YA fantasy involving shape-shifters. i have explained their shifting ability as a genetic difference between them and humans. I went into an entire explanation of the genetics behind it, referencing the Human Genome Project, and lots of research mumbo-jumbo. So one main character is explaining to the other. The problem I am having is making it less like a lecture and more like a conversation. Do you really think YA's care about the specifics, or should should I (for lack of a better phrase) dumb it down? It's  not information that they couldn't learn in school, but it's definitely detailed.



I don't think the level of detail you go into actually matters, the important thing is that you work it into the story in a way that seems natural. You don't want to make it obvious to the readers you are infodumping them. Don't just have someone go: "As you know, our shapeshifting power are the result of..." 

Unless this is something your readers absolutely have to understand, you pretty much only need to explain it when one of your characters require it explained, at which point you can explain it with as much detail as that character can comprehend or would expect. 

Actually, you can always have the _characters _request the lesson be dumbed down. Sorta like:

*Character A:* So, what are we dealing with?

*Character C: *Well, the Human Genome Project blablabla mapping genetic variances blablabla the human DNA blabla..

*Character A:* Hey, hey. English please, and keep it snappy.

*Character C: *Um, we're dealing with people who can shapeshift.

*Character A:* See? That's all I needed to know.


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## Devor (Mar 21, 2012)

Rikilamaro said:


> So one main character is explaining to the other. The problem I am having is making it less like a lecture and more like a conversation. Do you really think YA's care about the specifics, or should should I (for lack of a better phrase) dumb it down? It's not information that they couldn't learn in school, but it's definitely detailed.



Whether it's Young Adults or not, you should have a compelling way of presenting the information.  If your explanation _makes compelling sense_ in it's own accord, you should include it.  If the explanation looks like a load of hogwash, you should brush by it.  But Young Adult readers don't like to be babied.  If your readers are over the age of 13, you should include the material that your story demands.

As for presenting the information, one good strategy is to find a keyword that can sort of "bottle" that explanation in your reader's minds.  When I was younger, a show called Batman Beyond did something extremely close to what you're talking about, where people would go into a lab and have their genes altered to give them tails or claws or some other random thing, which they talked about in ways similar to a tattoo.  They called it gene _splicing_, and that's how they referred to it regularly throughout the series.


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## Rikilamaro (Mar 21, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> I think you need a little bit of both. Make it very informative but don't go on and on and on. I think that if you don't go into any real detail at all, then that would just be kind of lazy. I really liked the idea that you did research into the Genome Project and stuff like that and I really think if you explain it then it will seem more probable and understandable to the readers.
> 
> Maybe don't throw in ALL the more scientific words, maybe use other terms or words that are more common and understandable. It would be like a really smart scientist trying to explain something very complicated to a bunch of kids, so he can't expect them to know all these terms and things he knows. So yes I suggest you "dumb it down" but as long as you make it entertaining to read, then it should be fine. Good luck!
> 
> Edit : Maybe have the other character stop the MC and say something like, "X? What does X mean?" or "What do you mean by X?" These small interruptive breaks will make it seem more like a conversation rather than he/she just rambling on and on



Thank you for the advice. Incidentally the research was for a class and it happened that I was writing this portion of the story at that time. It all made sense to me then, but as I look back at it in editing I wonder if it's too advanced. I will definitely use your suggestion and use more layperson wording. 

Also, the conversation is a  bit one sided, so perhaps I will also add queries that will speed the process along and help chop up the information into manageable chunks. 

Thanks again.


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## Rikilamaro (Mar 21, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> I don't think the level of detail you go into actually matters, the important thing is that you work it into the story in a way that seems natural. You don't want to make it obvious to the readers you are infodumping them. Don't just have someone go: "As you know, our shapeshifting power are the result of..."
> 
> Unless this is something your readers absolutely have to understand, you pretty much only need to explain it when one of your characters require it explained, at which point you can explain it with as much detail as that character can comprehend or would expect.
> 
> ...



Awesome. I'll include the blah blahs as well.


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## Rikilamaro (Mar 21, 2012)

Devor said:


> Whether it's Young Adults or not, you should have a compelling way of presenting the information.  If your explanation _makes compelling sense_ in it's own accord, you should include it.  If the explanation looks like a load of hogwash, you should brush by it.  But Young Adult readers don't like to be babied.  If your readers are over the age of 13, you should include the material that your story demands.
> 
> As for presenting the information, one good strategy is to find a keyword that can sort of "bottle" that explanation in your reader's minds.  When I was younger, a show called Batman Beyond did something extremely close to what you're talking about, where people would go into a lab and have their genes altered to give them tails or claws or some other random thing, which they talked about in ways similar to a tattoo.  They called it gene _splicing_, and that's how they referred to it regularly throughout the series.



Very cool. I don't want it to sound like a mutation, but that's really what it boils down to. So this is food for thought. Thanks!


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## Rikilamaro (Mar 21, 2012)

Hominid said:


> I agree with Androxine Vortex's edit. Just because it's for YA audiences doesn't mean it should be "dumbed down."



I don't want my readers to perceive me as talking down to them, but I also don't want them to get to that point in the story and throw it down in disgust. Although, the mom side of me wants them to learn as they enjoy fiction. That's how I picked up a lot of my random knowledge. Thank you!


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## Rikilamaro (Mar 21, 2012)

Barsook said:


> That would be too much for YA.  Maybe just have one or two sentences (to five) explaining what it is with the science.  A good example is how Dr. B, in the book ,_Slayers_ by C. J. Hill, explained how the Slayer DNA is changed when there is a dragon around.
> 
> EDIT: Or do what Androxine Vortex said in his Edit.



Just requested said book from the library. I'll see if their explanation is in any way consistent with what I'm trying to accomplish. Thank you for the reference!


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## Hominid (Mar 21, 2012)

Rikilamaro said:


> I don't want my readers to perceive me as talking down to them, but I also don't want them to get to that point in the story and throw it down in disgust. Although, the mom side of me wants them to learn as they enjoy fiction. That's how I picked up a lot of my random knowledge. Thank you!



I would listen to the mom side of you, then. If you explain it in a way that makes sense, then the reader will learn about science, which is always good, and if you make it interesting/entertaining, then they'll keep reading your story.

Not that I'm an experienced writer; these are just personal opinions.


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## Androxine Vortex (Mar 21, 2012)

Also keep in mind that the most in detail you get, the more difficult it will be to accuratley back up your work and make it sound probable. If you start describing things (in great detail) down to the atomic structure then you'll probably find yourself stumbling over words and it might make it easy for the audience to question the validity of your storu, even if it is made up. I'm probably making this sound more complicated than it should be lol


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## Rikilamaro (Mar 21, 2012)

Hominid said:


> I would listen to the mom side of you, then. If you explain it in a way that makes sense, then the reader will learn about science, which is always good, and if you make it interesting/entertaining, then they'll keep reading your story.
> 
> Not that I'm an experienced writer; these are just personal opinions.



So now I'm looking for the humor in genetics. This should be interesting.  And I welcome the opinions of others while maintaining the right to reject your reality and substitute my own.


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## Rikilamaro (Mar 21, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> Also keep in mind that the most in detail you get, the more difficult it will be to accuratley back up your work and make it sound probable. If you start describing things (in great detail) down to the atomic structure then you'll probably find yourself stumbling over words and it might make it easy for the audience to question the validity of your storu, even if it is made up. I'm probably making this sound more complicated than it should be lol



True, but i'm trying to be as scientifically correct as possible. So that if they do end up learning something from the genetics portion it doesn't hinder their learning of it in the real world and may actually help in the end. I understand your point though. It's all about leaving wiggle room.


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## Barsook (Mar 21, 2012)

Not a problem.


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## Androxine Vortex (Mar 21, 2012)

Well whatever you do, the best method is trial and error. Don't expect to go back and fix it in one go. Try making the "scene" and then go back and reread it. Whatever you don't like, change it.


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## Rikilamaro (Mar 21, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> Well whatever you do, the best method is trial and error. Don't expect to go back and fix it in one go. Try making the "scene" and then go back and reread it. Whatever you don't like, change it.



Reread it. Sigh. I should have this whole thing memorized by now.
Thankfully this is a minor plot point in the grand scheme of things.


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## Queshire (Mar 21, 2012)

If nothing else, post it in the show case and we'll tell you whether we think it's too much or not.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 21, 2012)

I've never read YA, but when I was 16 or so, I began getting really really into White Wolf's Werewolf game, and the thing about that is, that it's really intense, with loads of detail, and we ate it up!  I would say that more important than dumbing it down is making it fun, realistic, and intense, because young people respond to those strong emotions.  I'm not sure whether the science you are going into is hard to understand, but there have been loads of great suggestions on this thread.  If you were interested in the science, I say write it in how you like it and then ask some young people to read it and see if it is at their level or whether it bores them.  Kids are pretty smart, and they're probably smarter now than when I was young (with computers and smart phones within reach at all times... )


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## Rikilamaro (Mar 21, 2012)

anihow said:


> I've never read YA, but when I was 16 or so, I began getting really really into White Wolf's Werewolf game, and the thing about that is, that it's really intense, with loads of detail, and we ate it up!  I would say that more important than dumbing it down is making it fun, realistic, and intense, because young people respond to those strong emotions.  I'm not sure whether the science you are going into is hard to understand, but there have been loads of great suggestions on this thread.  If you were interested in the science, I say write it in how you like it and then ask some young people to read it and see if it is at their level or whether it bores them.  Kids are pretty smart, and they're probably smarter now than when I was young (with computers and smart phones within reach at all times... )



Oh you're speaking to a WW RPGer. I used to hang out in their chat rooms all the time back in HTML days (which doesn't date me at all I'm sure.) It is intense. 

Good suggestion. I have a niece or two i could probably rope into that.


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## Steerpike (Mar 22, 2012)

Yeah White Wolf has some interesting games. I think they are now owned by CCP, the company that makes the Eve Online MMO, and who is working on a World of Darkness MMO.

Rikilamaro - one thing about the genetics angle is that the more information you provide, and the more in-depth you go on the explanation, the more the reader has a right to expect things to be scientifically accurate. So if you're going into high levels of details in terms of human genetics, and then making a leap to an implausible shape-shifting mechanism, I think it will hurt the story (and I'm not saying you are doing that, just making the point). If the shape-shifting involves a leap of plausibility, I think you're better off providing a small amount of underlying "scientific" rationale and leaving it at that. If you've hit on a really nice idea that fits in the science and can be presented in an engaging manner, then my feeling is that you can add as much science as you like.


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## virtualmayham (Mar 24, 2012)

This is a good question.  Those long lecture scenes kinda killed my first book, which is why it now lies in some dusty corner of my hard drive.  Look, having a character just talk to another character and tell him about stuff get boring.  What I try to do is slowly trickle out information to the reader.  It's a skill I've worked on and worked on, I think its a pretty effective way to get information across.  Remember, show, don't tell!


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## Rikilamaro (Mar 24, 2012)

virtualmayham said:


> This is a good question.  Those long lecture scenes kinda killed my first book, which is why it now lies in some dusty corner of my hard drive.  Look, having a character just talk to another character and tell him about stuff get boring.  What I try to do is slowly trickle out information to the reader.  It's a skill I've worked on and worked on, I think its a pretty effective way to get information across.  Remember, show, don't tell!



Kinda like a need to know basis? They don't need the textbook, they need the cliffnotes?


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## BeigePalladin (Mar 25, 2012)

Rikilamaro said:


> Kinda like a need to know basis? They don't need the textbook, they need the cliffnotes?



exactly this. unless something is a vital, vital part of the story - no matter how important it is to the world - you don't need to tell the reader, or else they'll get bored of rading explinations.


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## shangrila (Mar 25, 2012)

Yeah, it's better to show. Whether that's in a scene or whatever, long conversations between characters explaining the entire backstory aren't really interesting and can become tedious for the writer, let alone the reader.

I think a part of good storytelling is keeping that kind of stuff vague enough to keep a reader engaged while not giving them enough so they feel like they know it all. You want them to keep keep wanting to read your novel.


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## Steerpike (Mar 25, 2012)

Limiting details only to "need to know" isn't necessarily the best way to proceed, and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a published Fantasy work that follows that advice. Authors routinely impart information to the reader that isn't necessary to understand the story, but that breathes life in to the characters or the world. The trick is to find the balance between that and between just dumping information on the reader. Where that right balance is located will depend on you as the author.


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## Rikilamaro (Mar 25, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Limiting details only to "need to know" isn't necessarily the best way to, and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a published Fantasy work that follows that advice. Authors routinely impart information to the reader that isn't necessary to understand the story, but that breathes life in to the characters or the world. The trick is to find the balance between that and between just dumping information on the reader. Where that right balance is located will depend on you as the author.



Thank you for your response.
The information is as acurate as it can be without there actually being a genetic variant for shape shifting in the real world. Or at least it is current with today's theories of the human genome. I want the science to make the reader believe it -could- happen. I am currently working on trimming it down to something that isn't a 'dump'  of information, but still gets the important things into a conversation. I'll post it when I'm done, and maybe you can tell me if I achieve that balance.


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## Steerpike (Mar 25, 2012)

Rikilamaro said:


> The information is as acurate as it can be without there actually being a genetic variant for shape shifting in the real world. Or at least it is current with today's theories of the human genome. I want the science to make the reader believe it -could- happen. I am currently working on trimming it down to something that isn't a 'dump'  of information, but still gets the important things into a conversation. I'll post it when I'm done, and maybe you can tell me if I achieve that balance.



It is intriguing to me. I have a story involving shape-shifters, and there is also a genetic basis.

I think the biggest hurdle is dealing with a rapid transition from human to animal form. You'd need extremely rapid activation and transcription of the shapeshifting genes to bring about a quick transformation, and the energy demands would be high it seems to me.

Fascinating topic.


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## Rikilamaro (Mar 25, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> It is intriguing to me. I have a story involving shape-shifters, and there is also a genetic basis.
> 
> I think the biggest hurdle is dealing with a rapid transition from human to animal form. You'd need extremely rapid activation and transcription of the shapeshifting genes to bring about a quick transformation, and the energy demands would be high it seems to me.
> 
> Fascinating topic.



It is a fascinating topic.  
As far as transformation I was thinking perhaps the gene included a third variant on the cell metabolism. not aerobic or aneaerobic, but maybe something that breaks down hydrogen for more energy. This would leave them thirtsy, hypoglycemic, and possibly hyperkalemic. Almost like DKA, so the signs could be passed off to the world as poorly managed diabetes mellitus.
Thoughts?


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## Steerpike (Mar 25, 2012)

That's an interesting idea, Rikilamaro. When you say 'break down hydrogen' do you mean the element itself is being broken down? That might be hard to handle in a biological organism, but I'm not sure. It makes me think of fission. It certainly would provide a great deal of energy.

One thing I was looking at was shifting the glycolysis pathway around somehow, to get more energy than the process normally produces. I'm not sure whether it is worth expending the effort on going into that much detail. So far, I am simply referring in general terms to gene activation and the like.


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## Penpilot (Mar 26, 2012)

Getting info to a reader can be a tricky thing. One part of it is trimming it down to just the interesting parts. Second is finding the right context in which to reveal the information in an interesting way. For me, I like to camouflage the info within a conversation that's much more interesting. Have the characters talking/arguing over something like for example, a bad example, Starwars vs. Lord of the Rings and within that exchange have the information come out. Characters can say stuff like, "Chewbaca wasn't a wookie he was just Hans first wife with "genetic x" condition." or "The Orcs genetically don't make sense because (insert info here)" A TV show that does this a lot is Bones. They talk about their private lives as they examine dead bodies and insert the plot info in between.


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## Rikilamaro (Mar 27, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> That's an interesting idea, Rikilamaro. When you say 'break down hydrogen' do you mean the element itself is being broken down? That might be hard to handle in a biological organism, but I'm not sure. It makes me think of fission. It certainly would provide a great deal of energy.
> 
> One thing I was looking at was shifting the glycolysis pathway around somehow, to get more energy than the process normally produces. I'm not sure whether it is worth expending the effort on going into that much detail. So far, I am simply referring in general terms to gene activation and the like.



It does resemble fission a bit and I haven't worked out all of the metabolic pathways. I was thinking of having it happen in the renal caliculi instead of hepatically. That way the reabsorption of water would be increased, ADH levels would rise which may cause some glandular problems - but again mimics diabetes.

So you're going to rewrite the Kreb's cycle? Good luck with that.  And probably for a YA level that much detail wouldn't be needed. I just need to know it for myself so that I can better understand the biological reactions my characters will have.


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## Rikilamaro (Mar 27, 2012)

Penpilot said:


> Getting info to a reader can be a tricky thing. One part of it is trimming it down to just the interesting parts. Second is finding the right context in which to reveal the information in an interesting way. For me, I like to camouflage the info within a conversation that's much more interesting. Have the characters talking/arguing over something like for example, a bad example, Starwars vs. Lord of the Rings and within that exchange have the information come out. Characters can say stuff like, "Chewbaca wasn't a wookie he was just Hans first wife with "genetic x" condition." or "The Orcs genetically don't make sense because (insert info here)" A TV show that does this a lot is Bones. They talk about their private lives as they examine dead bodies and insert the plot info in between.



Good thought process, John. Thank you for taking the time to respond. I love Bones.


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## Penpilot (Mar 30, 2012)

Glad I could help. Yeah, Bones rocks.


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