# Fanfiction: Good or Bad??



## Devora

I've read that many writers dislike fanfiction, and loathe when people write using their material as a basis for their fanfics. 

I'll admit that I've read some pretty bad fanfiction, some that are just plain porn writing with fluff, but I've read some damn good fanfics that made me feel like they should have been part of the source material (and I've also read others that are so good that i questioned why the writer couldn't have made his own characters to tell the story since it seems like it comes into it's own!).

What is your opinion on fanfiction?

How would you feel if your stories were used for someone's fanfic?


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## shangrila

I wrote Fallout fanfiction when I was starting out. It helps not having to worry about developing a world and, with an RPG like that with a faceless/nameless/voiceless protagonist (ala Skyrim, Dark Souls, etc), you're not really using other peoples' characters.

So I don't have a problem with it and, if I'm ever famous enough to have people write fan fiction using my work, I'd just be plain old flattered. I don't get the hate for it, to be honest. It's basically just fans expressing their love for the work. I mean, yes, some can be horrible works of literature torture, but so what? It's not like it has any actual relation to the work itself.


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## Agran Velion

In some ways, I think fanfiction is a great exercise for writing. Since you already have the characters that you like, you don't have to spend time creating them (She he do this? I don't know if he's strong enough, or if he's a coward!), and the world building is already done, so you don't have to worry about if this island should be that close to the mainland (because if they were they'd have raiding parties there) or if the Dwarves should be moved less they dig a tunnel under the Elflands as a prank. 

It's also a good challenge to try and write someone else's characters. When they're yours, you can more or less handwave everything in the first draft, but if they're already established then you have to constantly question and say, "No no, Bela wouldn't go do that. She has to be forced to do it in order to show how much she doesn't like stuff despite being good at it." I've always loved reading fanfiction where I can say, "Yes, I could definitely imagine the character doing that." 

That being said, it is a bit depressing reading fanfiction that has very little to do with the original material. I've seen way too much "All human! No vampires! School fanfiction!" as a description for stories. Or when they force characters to do something that is completely out of character (without a proper explanation). If I'm ever blessed enough to actually have fanfiction, I fear that they may see a relationship that isn't there. "Of course they'd be in a relationship! They're adopted brothers and really close!"


Of course, if I do get fanfiction written about my work, I'll probably be too busy trying to pay off the deals I made with that cult  to worry about my characters being portrayed wrong.


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## Steerpike

I wouldn't mind if anyone wrote fanfic about my work. I think it might handicap the writer in a way, because they get skip some of the necessary steps. As Agran points out, it might also allow focus on a specific problem area.


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## Mindfire

Apologies in advance to any fanfic writers for this rant. 

I don't like fanfiction. It's lazy, unimaginative, and ludicrously self-indulgent. Of course no one fanfic is ALL of those things, but most fanfic is at least one of them. I had books and shows I loved as a kid, and I still do. They inspired me to write. But did I use their characters and worlds? No. I came up with my own! Fanfic is a shortcut for those too lazy or feeble to do the heavy lifting of coming up with their own world and characters, or else for those who have the talent but lack confidence in their own creativity and want to play it safe by piggybacking on others. 

If someone did fanfiction of my work, I'd be flattered, but also disappointed that they didn't have the will or confidence to do their own thing.


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## Feo Takahari

Frankly, I don't see why, say, The Letters of Mina Harker gets to be considered mature and intelligent fiction, but the story I'm betaing that takes apart the social inequalities on display in _My Little Pony_ doesn't get to, despite arguably being better-written. (I asked the author of the latter why she didn't write original fic, given that she's practically the bastard child of Borges and Orwell, and she said that she preferred to take apart other people's stories and reconstruct them in unrecognizable forms. In other words, she does exactly what Dodie Bellamy did to _Dracula_ in _Harker_, exactly what Gregory Maguire did to _The Wizard of Oz_ in _Wicked_, and even arguably what Gen Urobuchi did to _Cardcaptor Sakura_ in _Madoka Magica_.)


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## Steerpike

Well, it is one thing to say you are doing those things with fanfiction and another to pull it off. Most fanfic I've seen is so ham-handed and all around horrible that the author's protestations about "deconstruction" or any other such pursuits fall on deaf ears. The fanfic fails at doing it effectively and fails in other ways as well.

If you have a "fanfic" that is an extremely well done and insightful commentary on the original, then that's another story. But I don't see many of those.


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## Feo Takahari

Steerpike said:


> If you have a "fanfic" that is an extremely well done and insightful commentary on the original, then that's another story. But I don't see many of those.



Maybe you just don't look in the right places. Through Sessalisk, I've been introduced to the larger world of MLP fanfiction, and it's almost alarming how many good writers you can find on FIMfiction. (It's true that the toplist is by no means a measure of quality--you also get a large degree of harmless fluff and faffing about--but I do not regret the time I've spent there, and I think I've learned a few things about writing.)


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## Ankari

I'm curious.  Are the D&D, Warhammer, and World of Warcraft considered fanfiction?


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## Devor

I'm not a fan of using other people's characters.  I think the characters usually get butchered, often deliberately so, and I don't see that as being very useful to the authors.

I do think it's helpful to write with your own characters in a shared world.  Worldbuilding can be a chore if you're starting out.


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## Steerpike

Ankari said:


> I'm curious.  Are the D&D, Warhammer, and World of Warcraft considered fanfiction?



Not if they are officially licensed writers. Fanfic is written by someone other than the owners of the rights to the IP. That's my view of it. In the case of public domain works it can be a little more blurry.


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## Mindfire

Feo Takahari said:


> Frankly, I don't see why, say, The Letters of Mina Harker gets to be considered mature and intelligent fiction, but the story I'm betaing that takes apart the social inequalities on display in My Little Pony doesn't get to, despite arguably being better-written. (I asked the author of the latter why she didn't write original fic, given that she's practically the bastard child of Borges and Orwell, and she said that she preferred to take apart other people's stories and reconstruct them in unrecognizable forms. In other words, she does exactly what Dodie Bellamy did to Dracula in Harker, exactly what Gregory Maguire did to The Wizard of Oz in Wicked, and even arguably what Gen Urobuchi did to Cardcaptor Sakura in Madoka Magica.)



If what you say is true, your friend is wasting her talent. Also, your comments have helped me figure out why I absolutely hate Wicked so much.


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## Shockley

I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with everything Mindfire has said in this thread. 

 If you want to be good at writing, you have to do all the steps. All of them. That means building your set, making your characters, etc.


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## Jabrosky

Not only have I come to agree with Mindfire, but I don't even find writing fanfiction that fun. You have to work within the limits of the franchise's world and characterization unless you don't mind irate fans screaming at you for your unfaithfulness to canon. I'd rather create my own worlds and characters and write my own rules, thank you very much. Furthermore, some franchises are loaded with tons of canon material that you have to research. I pity the budding author who wants to write _Naruto _fanfiction without having watched every single episode of the anime or read every single issue of the manga.


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## Weaver

Christopher Mahaney said:


> How would you feel if your stories were used for someone's fanfic?





It's difficult for me to keep my response to this question short, as I am inclined to talk at great length when I feel strongly about a topic.  So, the short answer:

I'd be very angry.

Y'see, I feel very protective of my characters (even though I frequently cause bad things to happen to them myself, because that's my job), and I do not _ever _want a stranger inventing all sorts of lies about these imaginary people I care about.

Many people argue that fan fiction is good practice. Okay, so it allows a writer to make up a plot without having to invent the characters and setting.  Whatever.  We're not required to share with the world _everything_ we write.  Practice all you like, but keep it to yourself.

Many people argue that fan fiction is flattering to the author of the original work.  I'd be a lot more flattered if my stories inspired someone to create their own rather than attempting to lay claim to mine.


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## Alva

Well, I've never bothered to write fanfiction and I've only rarely bother to read any. But still, I have nothing against it. Well written fanfiction should be regarded as dialogue with the original work, not only doing it easy and low and somehow benefitting from the already imagined places and ideas and characters.

And really, fanfiction is *nothing new under the sun*. I think that there is lot fiction that most people aren't even recognizing as fanfiction since these works have been written with enough reason and skill. Nowadays, Internet has made it possible for even the laziest and lousiest writers to find their audience, but really... fanfiction is absolutely nothing new.

For instance: There is a possibility that Cervantes wouldn’t have written a(n official) sequel to his _Don Quixote_ hadn’t a pseudonym "Alonso FernÃ¡ndez de Avellaneda" created a fanfiction out of the original story in the fist place. And I know, even Cervantes himself didn’t approve the aforementioned pseudonym's efforts, but at least there was dialogue happening between the two and Cervantes hitting back. : D

A bit similar example can be found from early Finnish literature history in a form of a novel "Det gÃ¥r an" (1839) written by Carl Jonas Almqvist. It was a defence for free love and a deliberate critique against the original texts written by author J. V. Snellman. In 1940 Snellman published his own “sequel” called: _Det gÃ¥r an. En tafla ur lifvet, fortsÃ¤ttning_, and made it quite clear that he – like Cervantes – hadn’t really approved the interference. (Even though I’ve understood Almqvist's work was way more serious-minded than de Avellaneda’s.) Since I haven’t read Almqvist's _Det gÃ¥r an_, I had to refresh my memory and find information on it... and, as I found out, had to admit that such a task was a tad bit troublesome. In any case, during this quest I stumbled upon Wiki-article and this time I think an excerpt from Wikipedia (forgive me! D :") proved out to be a better summary on the essentials than I'm capable of giving here and now:

_”The novel is primarily an attack on lifelong marriage as an institution and the inability of women to become financially independent. The book's social tendency aroused lively debate and "det-gÃ¥r-an literature" became a concept. One consequence however was that Almqvist was forced out of his post as rector at the New Elementary School, Stockholm.”_

An(other?) example of well-written and thoughtful fanfiction is Jean Rhys’s _Wide Sargasso Sea_ (1966). It’s a response to Charlotte BrontÃ«’s _Jane Eyre_ and offers a backstory for one of the BrÃ¶nte’s original characters: the mad lady of the tower. I’ve actually read _Sargasso Sea_ (had to read it for a course at uni) and it’s such an interesting piece of fanfiction that I’d be honored if anybody showed such a philosophical attitude while reading my work. What comes to _Jane Eyre_ it’s still sitting on my booklist but I’m definitely going to read it. And soon. I just have to see myself how BrontÃ« originally represented the mad woman, locked up high in "her" high and lonely tower.

What comes to the modern fanfiction and my understanding of it, I'm quite disappointed. As far as I know books such as _Sense and Sensibility and Sea Monsters_ (2009) and _Pride and Prejudice and Zombies_ (2009) are nothing more than examples of unimaginative pranks on the original works. I haven't made acquaintance with these works myself, but I’ve came to understand that all the effort shown in the making of these novels is the capacity to use copy-paste and add something “sea-monsterish” and “zombieish” here and there within the original text.

Nonetheless, I’d guess contributing to the evergrowing amount of mainstream fanfiction nowadays is, at least, a way to get feedback. One doesn’t need to share their innermost, unpublished - and uncopyrighted - ideas to the whole world and still they can share their takes on fiction writing. Of course there are a lot of people who hardly meet the standards of _readable_ fiction - if at all - but at least these people are still writing. It’s something. And hopefully it’s dialogue.


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## Feo Takahari

I guess what it comes down to for me is that I, personally, don't have any creativity to waste, and I don't think I'm a bad writer. I'm not arrogant enough to think that blending elements of twenty different stories into a work that can pass as "original" makes me better than someone who rearranges and redefines elements of just one.

P.S. Mindfire, when this story is complete, I will send you a link. Please read it, and then you can call it a waste of talent all you want.


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## Ireth

Mindfire said:


> Also, your comments have helped me figure out why I absolutely hate Wicked so much.



I personally am a huge fan of Wicked, though I thought the book had far too much needless sex, gore and politics; I much prefer the musical. Even so, it's a fascinating look at a classic story from the villain's point of view, showing her struggles to be a good person despite being branded as wicked by practically everyone, and her every attempt at goodness blowing up in her face. For those who claim it ruins their view of the original Wizard of Oz, it's not much of a stretch to think of it as propaganda written by the eponymous Wicked Witch, to make herself look like more of a good guy (or girl) than a villain.


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## Alva

Weaver said:


> Many people argue that fan fiction is flattering to the author of the original work.  I'd be a lot more flattered if my stories inspired someone to create their own rather than attempting to lay claim to mine.



Hmm. I think there are cases that have proven it hard at times to differentiate between "mere" fanfiction and original thinking. I won't go into lenghts this time, either, but I've already listed some examples in my post above...

All I'm saying is that a dialogue between two works of art can be as meaningful and even necessary as any dialogue in any field of human interest. Plus, poor fanfiction is not (in itself) taking anything away from the original work. As a reader, I don't go into hating some fiction just because I've read bad fanfiction out of it. On the other hand, well written and thoughtful fanfiction can be a positive thing - even from the point of view of the original story.

Nonetheless, I can also relate to your opinion and especially to your feelings concerning on the topic. : )


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## Philip Overby

I'm not a fan of it and I've never had the desire to read any.  I think fan fic is the equivalent of "writer karaoke."  Yeah, you can go to karaoke and sing brilliantly, but at the end of the day, you're still singing someone else's song.  I see it as something fun to do, like karaoke.  If people are going to write fan fic anyway, then they should just have fun with it.  If a writer gets annoyed that someone is butchering their characters, then they have that right.  Some writers have said they don't care, while others are sort of insulted that someone is using their IP to do all sorts of bizarre things to their characters.  

I'm sure Journey isn't happy with millions of people butchering "Don't Stop Believing."  Or maybe they are?


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## Devor

Mindfire said:


> I don't like fanfiction. It's lazy, unimaginative, and ludicrously self-indulgent.



Sometimes "lazy" has value.  I won't defend the other two, but not every piece of writing you ever write needs to be a masterpiece.  That's why I don't consider writing in shared worlds like D&D, Warhammer and Warcraft to really be in the same boat as other fanfiction, especially when those stories are encouraged by the makers of those worlds.


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## Ireth

Phil the Drill said:


> I'm not a fan of it and I've never had the desire to read any.  I think fan fic is the equivalent of "writer karaoke."  Yeah, you can go to karaoke and sing brilliantly, but at the end of the day, you're still singing someone else's song.



Well, not all of us are lyricists or composers, so if we want to sing, all we've got to go on are other people's songs.


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## Sheilawisz

I defend fanfiction as a writing activity that can help people to write their first stories, useful even though they are borrowing someone else's characters and world. The first stories that I wrote were fanfics, so I believe that there is some value in writing Fanfictions.

However, I disapprove when people write novel-length fanfics putting on them their greatest dedication and effort... and then they are proud of what they have created.

I believe that anyone who is serious about writing (I mean, dedicating loads of your energy, discipline, time and love) needs to create his/her own stories, characters and, in the case of Fantasy literature, worlds...

Writing fanfics can also be fun even if you have your own stuff: I write fanfics sometimes just for kicks, and when I have a really fun idea for a fic, I can enjoy it a lot =)


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## Devora

I get the feeling that the same people that decry Fanfiction writing/writers would dispise Hobby writing/writers.


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## Amanita

I've written fanfiction and I'm not ashamed.
One of the gread advantages of writing fanfiction for a larger fandom is the fact, that a large number of people will be interested in reading it and commenting on it. It's perfectly possible to improve things such as word choice, description, writing about feelings etc. while writing fanfiction and those are the things pointed out most of the time here on the Showcase as well. Fanfiction also offers the chance to get used to highly negative criticism with a more healthier distance than you might have if your own work is concerned. 
Depending on what you write, there may be quite a large amount of freedom to create something yourself available.
In my opinion, writing fanfiction is not much more lazy, uncreative etc. than writing an "original" fantasy story where stock elves and dwarves who have stock characteristics and live in a standard setting fight against Evil. The only difference is the fact that some people actually make money with the latter.
Concerning the opinion that those people are "wasting their talent", why does it bother you? These forums are full about posts on how extremely hard it is to publish a story (in the form the author wanted)  and actually make money with it. So if someone considers such success unlikely, why should he bother and might never show his writing to anyone if he can have an audience writing fanfiction?
I don't think my original stuff will ever meet much of an audience but I'm doing it because I like it best at the moment. Might be a "waste of talent" too if anything like that exists within me, but writing something I don't care about would be as well.

As you can guess, I wouldn't mind fanfiction about my own stories if it should ever come to this. Some things would surely bother me if I found out, but at least in case of Harry Potter where I've been following this, the vast majority of people did write stories with respect for the original even though you could find plenty of crap as well of course. Inspiring other people's inspiration is my biggest goal with my writing and I'd be glad if I achieved this. 
In case of authors who explicitly disapprove of fanfiction, writing it should be taboo of course.


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## Burst

I am against fan fiction... Why write it when you could come up with something of your own? I think it's offensive really, but that's my opinion.


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## CupofJoe

I would guess that most of the writers of FanFic do not consider themselves to be authors and writers in the same way that most MythicScibes do. FanFic writers have seen a film, read a book and wondered what happened next, what happened before...

 If any writer can inspire that kind of engagement with their readership then I think they should be grateful and proud.


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## psychotick

Hi,

I have no problem with fan fiction, and have read a little of it, mostly Trek of course. My view is that some of it's good some of it not so good. But that's no different to any other writing.

Now is it lazy? I'm not sure it is. For some people it might be a quick way to avoid the hassle of world building. But against that I think you have to consider that a lot of fan fiction is written largely because people fall in love with the world, and that's a huge compliment to a writer.

What I do wonder about is that some people might write fan fiction as a sort of step up. Say writing a book with Star Trek in the title, gives you a sales boost and a leg up as a writer. But I don't know how you'd seperate those people from the ones who write it simply because they love the world.

As an author if someone wanted to do a fan fic of some of my books I think I'd be quite chuffed.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Penpilot

I don't see a problem with fanfic. It can be a good exercise in working with a pre-existing world. It won't get you practice in creating your own though.

I think some authors have a problem with it is because what if a fan writes a fanfic with idea X in it and then the author writes a story with out ever having seen the fanfic that also contains X.  Now the fan may think the writer ripped them off and could look toward suing. 

Lastly, I heard a story where some Stargate fanfic writers were so good that they got asked to do officially licensed novels in that universe and are now making a living doing it. So there is a market for fanfic. 

I think to utterly deride it all is narrow minded. Some people aren't interested in writing their own characters. They want to write about character X and their adventures and share their stories with no expectation of publication. I don't necessarily see the harm in it.


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## Weaver

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have no problem with fan fiction, and have read a little of it, mostly Trek of course. My view is that some of it's good some of it not so good. But that's no different to any other writing.
> 
> Now is it lazy? I'm not sure it is. For some people it might be a quick way to avoid the hassle of world building. But against that I think you have to consider that a lot of fan fiction is written largely because people fall in love with the world, and that's a huge compliment to a writer.
> 
> What I do wonder about is that some people might write fan fiction as a sort of step up. Say writing a book with Star Trek in the title, gives you a sales boost and a leg up as a writer. But I don't know how you'd seperate those people from the ones who write it simply because they love the world.
> 
> As an author if someone wanted to do a fan fic of some of my books I think I'd be quite chuffed.
> 
> Cheers, Greg.



It is not a compliment to the writer if he/she expresses a desire _not _to have their work used in fan fiction and then a fan goes and does it anyway.  (Looking at you, John Gregory Betancourt.  Doesn't matter if you had permission from the _publisher_ - it's still an act of vandalism.)  Ignoring the wishes of an author whose work one admires would be an insult, actually.  

You seem to be equating work-for-hire stories set in a copyrighted/trademarked setting (Star Trek) with actual fan fiction.  Star Trek (or Star Wars, or Warhammer 40K, or whatever) novels are written with the express permission of the owner of the copyright.  (The owner of Warhammer 40K, for example, _must_ step on anyone who writes in their setting without permission, due to the way copyright laws work in Britain.)  Yes, one hopes that the people who write these work-for-hire novels are fans of whatever setting they're writing in (and show a little respect for the original works), but they're not the same as fans writing stories for their own amusement, and neither is like a so-called fan who goes out and metaphorically mutilates a setting in public because they want to express their dislike of classic Star Trek by writing a story in which Doc McCoy gets eaten by a giant squid and everyone else thinks it's funny... (I made that example up.  The real examples are much, much worse, but not something that can be mentioned on a forum that tries to be PG.)


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## Zero Angel

I didn't feel like reading through the 3 pages of results currently--sorry!

I do enjoy fanfiction, although I haven't written any since 2nd grade. I do have a couple of fanfics planned in the pipeline. Namely, my version of the King Arthur mythos (the whole shebang, not just using some elements or even transporting them elsewhere). 

I think I enjoy fanfiction because I think most people stink at writing and I can do it better. If someone else has already done it better, then it saves me the effort (unless I can do it still better ). 

I'm exaggerating slightly, but I rarely consume any sort of fiction and go, "That is the absolute best way they could have told this story." 

Instead, I generally go, "I would have done X instead of Y," or "I would have presented it this way so that we could see that about the character and situation," or "They really dropped the ball here. It had a lot of potential that they did not live up to."

Still, I don't have time to waste on other people's characters, so I rarely write anything myself beyond thinking of it in my head. 

Also, I think it is important to think of any sort of adaptation as a form of fanfiction--whether that is movie versions, television shows or what. 

For instance, the Lord of the Rings movies are clearly different from the books. This is Peter Jackson's fanfiction on LotR. 

That's how I see it anyway. 

Oh, one other benefit of fanfiction: when the story ends too soon. Now, this rarely happens for successful series (in those cases, the story usually gets dragged out!), but for series or movies or books that end with so much left unsaid--fanfiction is one way to revisit these universes without having to revisit the original stories.


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## psychotick

Hi Weaver,

Bones got eaten by a giant squid? I'd actually pay to read that! (And I can just hear Spok going 'fascinating' as he watches!)

No I agree, if an author specifically says no to fan fiction then it wouldn't be right at all. But not all Trek novels are work for hire as you put it. Many are, as the franchise owners try to expand their readership base etc. But many are actual trekkies simply writing their books in the Star Trek universe. In fact there are multiple competitions etc among trekkies to write those very books. And yes they do have to get permission from the franchise owners to publish their works due to copyright issues etc. The key feature as I recall is that the work whatever it is, has to comply with the bible as it's called. In some cases their work is actually adding to the bible, I think the klingon academy or whatever it's calling itself, is a case in point, and some of their ideas ended up in Enterprise.

For Star Trek at least fan fic is part of a living, vibrant outpouring of love for the creation.

Cheers, Greg.


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## MystiqueRain

Yeah...not going to read through the last few pages out of pure laziness. 

I would be pretty interested and rather happy if someone made a fanfiction out of my work. Firstly, it shows that someone is reading whatever I'm writing. And secondly, I'd like to see their take on it - what they like or dislike about my work. Fanfiction allows for non-canon situations to happen and I think that's very intriguing.


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## Anders Ã„mting

Christopher Mahaney said:


> What is your opinion on fanfiction?



Being an old fanfiction writer myself, I can't really object to it. I think it's a fairly harmless hobby for the most part.



> How would you feel if your stories were used for someone's fanfic?



Flattered, I guess. Also, happy that I apparently have fans.


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## StorytellerGrl

As someone who wrote a fair amount of Star Trek fan fiction in middle and high school, I don't feel right in judging someone else for wanting to write fanfic, since I did it myself. I think there are good and bad points to it--both of which have been outlined in other comments. It can be great practice for a beginning writer; writing fanfic helped me to hone my storytelling abilities, without having to spend a lot of energy on world building or character building. However, I didn't _stay_ with fanfic--I used as a jumping off point and a learning tool to help with my own stories that I was creating entirely myself.

If I ever had enough fans who were excited about enough about my work to start writing fanfiction, I would be flattered. I don't think I'd want to read most of it, though--partly because so much fanfic is, to be honest, poorly written drivel. And also, despite being flattered, I don't think I'd want to know about what other people were doing with my world and my characters. If a fan came to a book signing or something dressed up as one of my characters, I'd be appreciative and give them some kind words, but if they asked me to read their fanfic story, I'm sure I'd decline. 

Keep the fanfic for your own personal enjoyment and writing practice, and then be inspired by it to go out and tell your own stories. More people will probably want to read that more, anyway.


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## Anders Ã„mting

So, question to everyone here who objects to fanfiction: Does your arguments also apply to other types of fanwork?

That is to say, are you of the opinion that people who make, for example, Harry Potter fanart should stick to drawing only original characters and motifs?



StorytellerGrl said:


> As someone who wrote a fair amount of Star Trek fan fiction in middle and high school, I don't feel right in judging someone else for wanting to write fanfic, since I did it myself. I think there are good and bad points to it--both of which have been outlined in other comments. It can be great practice for a beginning writer; writing fanfic helped me to hone my storytelling abilities, without having to spend a lot of energy on world building or character building. However, I didn't _stay_ with fanfic--I used as a jumping off point and a learning tool to help with my own stories that I was creating entirely myself.



Most do. A thing to understand is that specializing in fanfiction is surprisingly difficult and requires you to have a rather specific skillset as a writer - you need to be very good at imitating other writers and know how to stay within the confines of the source material. Uou need to be able to see what makes that source material enjoyable in itself and exploit that. Most writers aren't very good at that - even really good fanfiction tends to drift towards the author's own personal style, often in a very noticable sort of way. Then you end up with fanfics that are technically excellent but have a completely different mood, style and theme compared to the original. 

Basically, most writers _want _to do their own thing - especially skilled writers. Hence why highly skilled fanfiction writers are rare.

In fact, I would say that writing fanfiction is only good practice for writing original fiction to a certain degree. Once you reach a certain point in your development, it just becomes good practice for writing even more fanfiction. At least if you are doing it right.

That's why I find it funny when people complain that fanfic writers should write their own material instead - most fanfiction writers probably evolve into regular writers anyway. (That, or they give up on writing completely.) 

Also, seems like this usually happens in the middle of some great magnum opus fanfic, which is why so many really good fanfics end up abandoned.


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## FatCat

I adhere to the saying that if the story is good, then it's good. Fanfic or no, if a writer has talent and spins a compelling tale then I really don't care where the work originated from. Although, the creative side of me cries out at this notion for the simple idea that as a writer I don't understand why you wouldn't simply create your own world. Personal preference only remains the same until it is changed, I try to keep an open mind.


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## Zero Angel

Anders Ã„mting said:


> Also, seems like this usually happens in the middle of some great magnum opus fanfic, which is why so many really good fanfics end up abandoned.



I cannot describe how many times this has happened to fanfics I've read! I think that is probably why I stopped reading fanfics!

In fact, I recently looked up a fanfic that I hadn't read for ten+ years, and there was a FANFIC continuation of the fanfic!

Talk about the snake eating itself!


----------



## Anders Ã„mting

Zero Angel said:


> I cannot describe how many times this has happened to fanfics I've read! I think that is probably why I stopped reading fanfics!



Honestly, I'm guilty of this as well. Most of the fanfics I've written can vanish into oblivion of the ages for all I care, but there are a couple of really ambitious ones I deeply regret never finishing.



> In fact, I recently looked up a fanfic that I hadn't read for ten+ years, and there was a FANFIC continuation of the fanfic!
> 
> Talk about the snake eating itself!



Ah yes. Fanfiction fanfiction.

Even I never went that far.


----------



## Zero Angel

Anders Ã„mting said:


> Ah yes. Fanfiction fanfiction.
> 
> Even I never went that far.



And IT wasn't finished either!


----------



## Devor

Anders Ã„mting said:


> So, question to everyone here who objects to fanfiction: Does your arguments also apply to other types of fanwork?



My objection to fanfiction is based solely on the butchering of the character's personalities.  If the fanfiction doesn't use those characters, or uses them only as supporting characters, or in some cases makes a genuine and successful effort to get those characters right, then I've no problem with it.  But just using somebody else's characters, you're likely to misunderstand their motivations and their experiences and create characters who are caricatures of the originals.  I think that can be bad for the fanfiction writer and bad for the original author.  Those things are less likely to happen with artwork, and I can respect that a lot more.

Then of course there's the slasher stuff.


----------



## SeverinR

For me, 
Fanfic makes it seem like I am equal to my favorite writer.

But after writing my books, and characters, I know there are reasons why characters do things, some hidden or unrealized traits that no one but the writer knows. So you are puppeting the writers characters as to how you think they would act.
The few fanfic I read, the characters just didn't seem to be the same.
Much like someone telling how an incident happened, the stories can come out very different compared to each other.

I much rather use the traits I like or dislike in a character of a book I like, then to try to mimic the actual char.  I could not write the same Harry Potter that Rawling does. Nor the same Hiccup (HttyD), nor the same Eragon.
If I can't make them as good/better, then I am watering down the character.

Let the great writers with great characters tell their stories, I will strive to make my characters great and tell my stories. 

Fanfic as a writing exercise, maybe, but I won't post in it any forum other then the writing challenge.

I think I have offended Fanfic writers before, so I will repost this:
IMO, this is my opinion,  I make no judgement on others that like to write fanfic.


----------



## Anders Ã„mting

Zero Angel said:


> And IT wasn't finished either!



Madness! 



Devor said:


> My objection to fanfiction is based solely on the butchering of the character's personalities.  If the fanfiction doesn't use those characters, or uses them only as supporting characters, or in some cases makes a genuine and successful effort to get those characters right, then I've no problem with it.  But just using somebody else's characters, you're likely to misunderstand their motivations and their experiences and create characters who are caricatures of the originals.  I think that can be bad for the fanfiction writer and bad for the original author.



What you are basically saying is, you mostly only object to _bad _fanfiction. 

That's pretty reasonable, I think.


----------



## Mindfire

You know what I notice about these fanfic discussions? Nobody wants to defend slash. So the question is, if pretty much everyone agrees it's bad... _who writes this garbage?_


----------



## Zero Angel

Mindfire said:


> You know what I notice about these fanfic discussions? Nobody wants to defend slash. So the question is, if pretty much everyone agrees it's bad... _who writes this garbage?_



I'm guessing people that like to think of the same-sex characters hooking up. And they probably don't think it is garbage. I'm not opposed to a good fanfiction story having elements of this if the groundwork was in the series, although I'd rather not read the details and skip to the plot.


----------



## Steerpike

Actually, as far as fanfic goes, I think slash is pretty popular. It has even been studied by sociologists, and I think you'd need a threshold popularity to attract that attention.


----------



## Devor

Mindfire said:


> You know what I notice about these fanfic discussions? Nobody wants to defend slash. So the question is, if pretty much everyone agrees it's bad... _who writes this garbage?_



I know somebody.  It's mostly women.  They have conventions.


----------



## Mindfire

Devor said:


> I know somebody.  It's mostly women.  They have conventions.



But... why??? Why do they do it? It boggles me that people are willing to twist characterization around like a pretzel in order to make their two favorite characters hook up. Faithfulness to the source material be damned. This goes for shippers in general, but slashers in particular.


----------



## Steerpike

Probably an element of "fantasizing" in there, which is an element to a lot of fiction, slash fanfic or not.


----------



## Agran Velion

Mindfire said:


> You know what I notice about these fanfic discussions? Nobody wants to defend slash. So the question is, if pretty much everyone agrees it's bad... _who writes this garbage?_



I always assumed it was written by a generator that strung random words together (that was programmed by a generator that strung random coding together).


----------



## Mindfire

Steerpike said:


> Probably an element of "fantasizing" in there, which is an element to a lot of fiction, slash fanfic or not.



And yet these are people who claim to love the source material... that they are violently contradicting.



Agran Velion said:


> I always assumed it was written by a generator that strung random words together (that was programmed by a generator that strung random coding together).



By Gandalf's beard! It actually exists! The Do-It-Yourself Bad Slash Story Generator!


----------



## Steerpike

I don't think there is any contradiction in loving the source material and writing fanfic that is very different. I assume most people that write fanfic do it with respect to works they are "fans" of. They take characters they really like and want to play with them, to take them down different paths from what the original author chose. In a way, that's the point of fanfic. If you're going to do everything consistently with what the original author wrote, then why write it? I think many fanfic authors are about pushing past the boundaries of the original work, and in some cases perhaps commenting on them.


----------



## Mindfire

Steerpike said:


> I don't think there is any contradiction in loving the source material and writing fanfic that is very different. I assume most people that write fanfic do it with respect to works they are "fans" of. They take characters they really like and want to play with them, to take them down different paths from what the original author chose. In a way, that's the point of fanfic. If you're going to do everything consistently with what the original author wrote, then why write it? I think many fanfic authors are about pushing past the boundaries of the original work, and in some cases perhaps commenting on them.



It seems more like the fanfic writer declaring "Screw you, my way is better!" In which case the question becomes, why don't you write your own stuff? The absolute best and most charitable interpretation of fanfic I can muster is that it is like the pretend games we play as children, where we "become" our favorite characters and have adventures in the roles. But even that comparison is unfavorable for fanfic, slash in particular, because every game has rules and the fanfic-ers seem to forget this. Exempli gratia:

Kid A: "Bam! I just killed you!"
Kid B: "You can't do that!"
Kid C: "Because Batman doesn't kill, DUH!"
Kid A: "Yeah, play right."
Kid B: "Okay, okay."

Fanfiction writers seem to have forgotten the rules that small children know instictively. If you assume the role of (or write) a character, you must be consistent. If you want to deviate significantly from the source, the best you can do is to set your fiction in an "alternate universe". Fanfiction includes no such disclaimer. And I fail to see how destroying characterization just so you can see [insert villain] sodomize [insert hero] and afterward discuss their wonderful relationship is "social commentary."


----------



## Steerpike

Sorry, Mindfire, I can't say that I agree with much of that at all. You are making up these rules and applying them to the situation, but there is no logical reason why they should have to apply. They just happen to be the rules that comply with your own view of things. Most people I've known who have done fanfic have been fans of the original, and felt no need to be consistent with every aspect of the original in their fanfics. They could go wherever their imagination wanted to wander. A rule that fanfic must be consistent? Where on earth would such a rule stem from? What would be the basis for it? Seems odd to come up with a rule when there is no source for it. Fanfic is just made up between the writer and her pen. When you have two or more kids playing together you have cries for consistently because each kid has to know the boundaries within which the game is being played. When one kid is playing alone, he can make up whatever rules he wants. Despite the fact that fanfic writers are using the characters or settings of another author, the original author isn't a party to the fanfic. The fanfic writer is working independently and can do whatever he feels like (the exception, I suppose, would be a collaborative project, where the fanfic writers agree on the rules, but they can still be whatever rules they agree to; there's no reason they have to be constrained by the original author).


----------



## psychotick

Hi,

I don't think that there's any need for fan fic to necessarily follow every cannon of a creation. I mean haven't you ever completely loved a book or a show and hated just one piece of it? For me it would be the ending to Enterprise where they killed off Trip and no one seemed to even give a damn. If I was going to write some piece of Trekkie fan fic, fixing that appalling ending would probably be the one I'd choose to do.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## Mindfire

It just seems contradictory to me. If you love the original so much, why would you want to change it? (And I mean change it wholesale, not just make tiny edits like Psy mentioned.) If you're going to make the universe unrecognizable, why not just make a new one entirely? If you love the source material, why butcher it?


----------



## Steerpike

Mindfire said:


> It just seems contradictory to me. If you love the original so much, why would you want to change it?



I don't know. Why not? You can like both. Maybe you love the characters a lot and want to play with them, like friends, but doing something different. I don't write fanfic, so I can't tell you exactly what fanfic writers are thinking about, but I don't have any kind of problem with it (even slash fanfic), other than the fact if the writer is hoping to develop as a writer he's hindering himself.


----------



## Zero Angel

Along the lines of what I mentioned earlier with alternate media being a version of fanfiction (for instance, comics versus movies versus TV versus graphic novels versus novels versus whatever), there are also alternate imaginings of the same thing by the same company.

For instance, Tenchi Muyo versus Tenchi Universe versus Tenchi in Tokyo. Each imagining of this universe takes the same basic characters and fundamentally alters things about them to tell similar but different stories. And they are all TV shows. So these are like fanfics with whole new universes, but written by the same entity. I consider Tenchi Muyo to be the "original", but someone else might consider one of the others to be. 

This is not uncommon in Japan either.


----------



## Penpilot

Mindfire said:


> It just seems contradictory to me. If you love the original so much, why would you want to change it? (And I mean change it wholesale, not just make tiny edits like Psy mentioned.) If you're going to make the universe unrecognizable, why not just make a new one entirely? If you love the source material, why butcher it?



I think another thing comes into this. It's a game that fans of certain things like to play in conversations not just fanfic. It's the What if? game. What if the Flash raced Quicksilver? What if the Hulk fought Superman? What if the X-men teamed up with the Avengers? The latter actually happened, but that's the appeal. To take two elements that normally don't go together and mix them. 

It's like a kid taking their Captain America action figure and having him fight crime with his Batman action figure. It's pretend. What if Captain Kirk teamed up with Captain Picard? Like was said above, it's about taking something you love and playing with it. It's not destroying anything. It' can't destroy anything. It's just exploring What if? and that's what all writers do. The difference being is that a lot of the fanfic writers don't want to play with their own characters and they have no interest in being published. They just want to play with Luke Skywalker and Captain Kirk.


----------



## Darkfantasy

Some people love it I personally hate it. Right noe there is a lot of Twilight fan-fiction and Hunger Games. I just feel that, those authors created those characters, no one knows them better than the author. When I read fan-fi it's just not the same. It's not as good, and the characters alwys feel different to me, almost like entirely different characters. I always thought the whole point of being a writer is to use your own creation and imagination - I guess you do in a way with fan-fi. I'm just not a fan.


----------



## Devor

Penpilot said:


> What if the Hulk fought Superman? What if the X-men teamed up with the Avengers? The latter actually happened. . . .



The Hulk fought Superman, too.  Superman won.

DC vs. Marvel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Zero Angel

Darkfantasy said:


> I always thought the whole point of being a writer is to use your own creation and imagination - I guess you do in a way with fan-fi. I'm just not a fan.



The whole point of being a writer is ... what you want it to be.


----------



## Amanita

I absolutely don't get the whole "slash" fascination either. Especially the fact that it's such a large number of fanfiction out there for reasons I completely fail to see. I don't understand the idea the women/girls don't want to read about their favourite characters being with another female for jealousy reasons either. Maybe I'm not a normal woman but this kind of thing is beyond me. 
Usually, in case of good fanfiction being true to the original is the goal that's supposed to be achieved. Here in Germany, writing your own addition to a work of classical literature is actually done in school for exams, so they probably think it's worth something. I have to admit that I've always avoided to do this and chosen the more analytical tasks though.


----------



## Anders Ã„mting

Mindfire said:


> You know what I notice about these fanfic discussions? Nobody wants to defend slash. So the question is, if pretty much everyone agrees it's bad...



Eh, I don't know. It's basically just shipping, except between same-sex characters.

I've writen one slashfic, kinda, mainly as a reaction to a forum debate not too dissimilar from this one. It was short and generally harmless and got pretty good reviews. 

It's not a field I've devoted a lot of attention to, but I certainly wouldn't say the _concept of slash itself _is inherently bad. I mean, why would it be? Because homosexuals make you uncomfortable? Come on, let's be grown-ups here.



Mindfire said:


> But... why??? Why do they do it? It boggles me that people are willing to twist characterization around like a pretzel in order to make their two favorite characters hook up. Faithfulness to the source material be damned. This goes for shippers in general, but slashers in particular.



Well, playing fantasy matchmaker is fun, pretty much. Heck, writing romance in general is pretty stimulating. Have you seriously never seen two fictional characters and thought: "Hey, under the right circumanstances, those two would make a good couple." And then you start thinking about it and suddenly you have a fanfic just begging to be written.

If anything, I'm guessing writing around the established characterization is part of the challenge. Kinda like: "How do I make these alledgely straight characters gay for each other without completely derailing their personalities?" (And keep in mind that sexual orientation isn't _necessarily _a defining character trait.)



Steerpike said:


> Probably an element of "fantasizing" in there, which is an element to a lot of fiction, slash fanfic or not.



Granted, some people take their fantisizing a little too far. But those people are crazy and the rest of us generally stay away from them and try our best to avoid eyecontact.

And while on the subject: I can totally understand why people would pair up two characters of the same gender. (Because they think it's hot. Duh.) What I _don't _understand is people (almost always women) who apparently seriously believe that any act of villainy and any character flaw no matter how severe is entirely forgivable if the villain in question is sexy enough.



Steerpike said:


> I don't think there is any contradiction in loving the source material and writing fanfic that is very different. I assume most people that write fanfic do it with respect to works they are "fans" of.



Mostly. Some get a bit carried away, though, and some do write fanfics mainly to make horrible, shamless self-inserts, or to write hatefics specifically to be mean to characters they don't like, etc. A few even write extremely terrible fanfics on purpose, as a form a of parody or trolling.

But again, there is a differance between fanfiction and _bad _fanfiction.



Mindfire said:


> It seems more like the fanfic writer declaring "Screw you, my way is better!"



That's a rather cynical way of looking at it. 

Most fanfic writers genuinely like what they write about. Otherwise they wouldn't find it inspiring.



> In which case the question becomes, why don't you write your own stuff?



Because the disire to create original fiction is different from the desire to write fanfiction. It's really not the same thing at all, at least not for me.

There are days I don't feel like writing on my own stuff but is really in the mood for fanfiction. But then there are days when I would much rather write on my own stories.



> The absolute best and most charitable interpretation of fanfic I can muster is that it is like the pretend games we play as children, where we "become" our favorite characters and have adventures in the roles.



That's actually a really interesting thought. Though, I think it's more comparable to playing with action figures.



> But even that comparison is unfavorable for fanfic, slash in particular, because every game has rules and the fanfic-ers seem to forget this. Exempli gratia:
> 
> Kid A: "Bam! I just killed you!"
> Kid B: "You can't do that!"
> Kid C: "Because Batman doesn't kill, DUH!"
> Kid A: "Yeah, play right."
> Kid B: "Okay, okay."
> 
> Fanfiction writers seem to have forgotten the rules that small children know instictively.



I don't think this is a very good example. 

First of all, the rules you are talking about are social contructs children create so that they can get along. Whereas if you are a kid playing playing with Batman dolls alone in your room, nobody is going to tell you that Batman can't kill people.

Second, there are actually "rules" to writing fanfiction. You are _supposed_ to keep the continuity in mind. You are _supposed _to keep the characterization accurate as your story concept allows. You are _supposed _to emulate the basic style of the source material.

You don't have to follow all these rules all the time - you can break some if you have a good reason and the skill to pull it off well. But you can't get away with breaking all of them in the same story. 

Do some fanfic writers get this all wrong? Sure, all the time! But that's because _those people are not very good writers. _It's not a problem with fanfiction itself.



> If you assume the role of (or write) a character, you must be consistent. If you want to deviate significantly from the source, the best you can do is to set your fiction in an "alternate universe". Fanfiction includes no such disclaimer.



Actually, most people who write deliberate AU do generally advertise their work as such.



> And I fail to see how destroying characterization just so you can see [insert villain] sodomize [insert hero] and afterward discuss their wonderful relationship is "social commentary."



Eh, anyone who writes a fic like that and tries to pass it off as social commentary with a straight face is either a terribly pretentious hack or trying to troll you.

Most of us admit we're just doing it for fun.



Mindfire said:


> It just seems contradictory to me. If you love the original so much, why would you want to change it? (And I mean change it wholesale, not just make tiny edits like Psy mentioned.)



Well, sometimes it's just a matter of wanting to change it to see how it turns out. 

For example, I've written a Harry Potter fanfic where almost all of the characters have different personalities, to varying degrees. But that's the _only _thing I changed, the rest of the setting is exactly the same. (Short of me adding a few minor things like new spells, etc.) I even went as far as studying Rowling's writing style just so I could imitate how she told her story. The whole thing was supposed to begin following the same plotline as the books, and then I'd just see how it would deviate based on the changes I'd done to the characters.

I was basically looking at the characterization and setting both as individual components of the plot, asking myself if I could arrive at a whole new story by changing one of its main aspects (the characterization) while still keeping the over-all concept as recognizably Harry Potter. I wanted something that fans could look at and go: "This is completely different, but it's still _definitely _HP."

On the other hand, there is this other Harry Potter fanfic that does pretty much the same thing - it drastically changes the personality of Harry and a few others, thus creating new circumstances for the plot. It's very well written, quite popular and I did enjoy it myself for a while. But then I noticed that the author was also taking liberties with the setting, making quite significant conceptual changes. That rather annoyed me, because I thought it felt like cheating. Or rather, it skirted dangerously close to the point where the author might as well create an original setting from scratch. 

See, it's a balancing act. On one hand, you need to express your own ideas, or your fanfiction will be kinda pointless. But on the other, you can't take too many liberties because then you aren't writing fanfiction out of love for the source material, but rather just exploiting it as a vehicle of your own ideas out of lazyness. 



Darkfantasy said:


> Some people love it I personally hate it. Right noe there is a lot of Twilight fan-fiction and Hunger Games. I just feel that, those authors created those characters, no one knows them better than the author.



Then the author hasn't been doing a very good job, has he? 



> When I read fan-fi it's just not the same. It's not as good, and the characters alwys feel different to me, almost like entirely different characters.



Once more, this is probably because you are specificaly reading _bad _fanfiction.


----------



## Devora

I think that a lot of writers forget that even the "professionals" are just writings stories that have already been written; we just change the names and settings, and and put our own spin on the story.


----------



## Steerpike

I think that's true, Christopher, but the difference with fanfic is you're using the same actual characters and/or settings created by the other author, not simply taking ideas, general plots, themes, and the like and putting your own spin on it.

But writers need to get used to the idea that for a lot of fanfic there may well be nothing you can do about it, legally, even if you had the desire and resources to do so (though if you have the resources, you can try to intimidate the fanfic writer with threats of suit, I suppose).


----------



## Devora

Steerpike said:


> (though if you have the resources, you can try to intimidate the fanfic writer with threats of suit, I suppose).



To me that doesn't make since the fanfic writers aren't making money off of the material written (and most of the time fanfic writers put disclaimers in their stories), but then again: there would be someone asshole enough to try and bury them out of butt-hurt over their work being used.


----------



## Mindfire

Christopher Mahaney said:


> To me that doesn't make since the fanfic writers aren't making money off of the material written (and most of the time fanfic writers put disclaimers in their stories), but then again: there would be someone asshole enough to try and bury them out of butt-hurt over their work being used.



I think one or two writers actually have. I don't recall coming across any actual trials, but I have heard of threats being made. From what the internet tells me, usually the fanficcer would rather take down their stuff than go toe-to-toe with their favorite author (and their publisher's lawyers).


----------



## Steerpike

Christopher Mahaney said:


> To me that doesn't make since the fanfic writers aren't making money off of the material written (and most of the time fanfic writers put disclaimers in their stories), but then again: there would be someone asshole enough to try and bury them out of butt-hurt over their work being used.



Well, if they're really violating copyright a disclaimer won't matter, and you don't have to be making money off something or even trying to in order to infringe copyright. But a lot of fanfic stuff isn't really infringing any copyright, or is otherwise protected, so in many cases you'd have a hard time winning a lawsuit. But a writer with enough money versus a fanfic writer with none...well, you can just spend them into submission because legal fees aren't cheap.


----------



## Zero Angel

I can understand, for instance, if the writers were deliberately promoting a worldview that went against everything you stood for how some people might become offended. 

For instance, I think a lot of people would be offended by a slash fanfic of the New Testament where everyone hooked up. In fact, this is somewhat related to a massive scam that I hope is not still making the rounds (but probably is); you can read about it here.


----------



## Anders Ã„mting

Thanks to this thread, I am now writing fanfiction again.

I hope you are all very proud of yourselves.


----------



## psychotick

Hi Anders,

The only thing that matters is - are you enjoying it?

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## Anders Ã„mting

psychotick said:


> Hi Anders,
> 
> The only thing that matters is - are you enjoying it?



Do I enjoy writing? Well, yes, of course. I wouldn't hang around this place if I didn't.


----------



## Devora

I should have done this as a poll thread.


----------



## Anders Ã„mting

Stayed up all night writing. The new chapter only got one new review, which was two words long.

...Now I remember why I can never keep this up for extended periods. I'm a shallow man who can't function without constant praise. o__O


----------



## Kit

I used to assume fanfic was the lowest dregs. I have never glanced at any of it before. However, these past few weeks I've been reading a little fanfic related to a serialized story whose original author is just not producing enough volume and frequency of material to satisfy my hunger for it.

Yes, there's a lot of cringe-worthy garbage- and bad slash- and Mary Sue stories- but fortunately, people with more time and obsession that I have sifted the trash to some degree and I can find the better stuff via reviews.

I think that the fanfic writers who are looking to gain/please readers are trying to stick to canon. The ones who don't get called out by all the people who have obviously memorized every word of the original works. The people who are just pleasing themselves can obviously do whatever they want and not care what others think.

I'm currently reading everything I can find by one particular fanfic author who appears to have written novels'-worth of stories (totalling much more volume than the original work) and is not only very faithful to canon, but is an incredibly talented MAD GENIUS. I can't imagine why this person isn't writing their own stuff, but if s/he ever does, I'll be all over it.

If I publish, and others write awful fanfic based on my stuff, I probably won't want to read it- but it wouldn't bother me much, I don't think- not nearly as much as a publisher insisting on a cover with characters that look nothing like mine. It's obvious that fanfic isn't "real"/canon, and I don't view it as reflecting on the original work/author- but if there's a crappy cover on the book I write, that does reflect on me, and makes it seem as if those (possibly wrong, bad) images are the  "official" representation of the characters.


----------



## ccrogers3d

I like writing fanfic for fun and practice, but I don't share it. Then I can pillage it for ideas when writing with my own worlds and characters.


----------



## Chilari

I can't be bothered to read the whole thread right now, but I've read a fair few comments and I'm frankly surprised by the number of people so vehemently opposed to fanfiction. Fanfiction is a good way of practicing many aspects of writing (characterisation, dialogue, description, pacing and more), and a good way to get feedback because there's an established fanbase interested in reading fanfics. And while an awful lot of it is dross, there are the occasional gems.

People enjoy writing it, and people enjoy reading it, so I don't see what's so wrong about it - are your characters that precious that something someone you'll never meet has written about them which you'll never read is an insult to you?

And while writing fanfic can be called lazy, what's so wrong about that? Sometimes it's okay to be lazy. Long day at work, can't get past this writers block, just want to enjoy yourself writing without any pressure for it to be good? Then why not fanfic?

Lazy or not, I find writing fanfic sometimes helps me work through problems in completely unrelated stories, give me ideas to get past those blocks. Without the pressure there to finish it, or anything riding on it being any good, there's greater freedom, not less, to try things out and play around. One fanfic I've been working on here and there over the last year has helped me realise that a character's major flaw can be as much as a drive to the story as their passion or skill, and it's a concept I hope to work into an original fic at some point. The fic itself will almost certainly never see the light of day. Nobody will ever read it but me. And even for those who do write fanfic to share, what's so wrong with that? As someone else has already said and as I stated above, getting feedback is useful, not only because it helps a writer improve, but because it helps them develop a thick skin in preparation for their original fic being torn apart.

Writing fanfiction for an audience of existing fans can also help you learn how to research properly, how to portray characters consistently, and give you a variety of well developed characters to write about where a beginning writer might be tempted (or just inexperienced enough) to write very similar, cliched or one-dimensional characters.

If an author has expressed a wish that people don't write fanfics of their works, fine, they're entitled to request that and personally I would respect that. But I don't think it should be taken as an insult if others write fanfic of it anyway, because it is inspired by enjoyment of the world and characters and a desire to emulate the author. And I don't think some authors not liking it means that all fanfic, or even most fanfic, can be seen as an insult. Personally I'd be happy to have fans in the first place, and flattered they enjoyed my writing enough to want more than I can provide.


----------



## Aravelle

Phil the Drill said:


> I'm not a fan of it and I've never had the desire to read any.  I think fan fic is the equivalent of "writer karaoke."



I understand. If you're a damn good writer, go make your own "music". But, kareoke can be practice.. and who doesn't like "singing" and sharing it with people who enjoy it every once in a while too? 

I loathe the butchering of characters so carefully made by their writers... but honestly, raunchy fanfiction is one of the safest ways to explore one's sexuality. I feel that sexual fanfic is a necessary evil, whereas just... bad writing is bad. xD I understand the desire to write fanfiction, and wouldn't hold it against a wee one if they wrote it in my universe, as long as they don't change any of the character's sexualities or blatantly throw out/oppose a trait the characters have.


----------



## Aravelle

Mindfire said:


> But... why??? Why do they do it? It boggles me that people are willing to twist characterization around like a pretzel in order to make their two favorite characters hook up. Faithfulness to the source material be damned. This goes for shippers in general, but slashers in particular.



As a woman who unabashedly enjoys a good slash fic every so often, I can explain.

It's not unlike how some men enjoy lesbian "action"... except it involves our beloved characters, adding the emotional intensity women commonly are attracted to. We prefer when there's more than lust involved, or if there is lust that it's just... uncontrollable. It's passionate; that is the right word. We are drawn to passion, and we love the idea of a man being passionate.. and we obviously don't oppose them exerting that passion onto/into/with another man. xD


----------



## Steerpike

Aravelle said:


> It's not unlike how some men enjoy lesbian "action"... except it involves our beloved characters, adding the emotional intensity women commonly are attracted to.



That's not a bad point. A lesbian Firefly fanfic video wouldn't be half bad, particularly if Saffron was also in that episode.


----------



## Kit

I once heard a man explain (when asked why the fascination with girl-on-girl), that with standard porn, he only really wants to look at 50% of that equation. With two women, there's twice as much girl to look at. I would venture that for some women, the interest in slash is similar. 

I have been reading a little manga lately, and my my... the places that can lead. Japanese graphic novels have MULTIPLE GENRES of male x male erotica, all divvied up according by exactly how explicit you want it and numerous other categories. The largest audience for it is women.


----------



## Weaver

Devor said:


> My objection to fanfiction is based solely on the *butchering of the character's personalities *[emphasis added].... Those things are less likely to happen with artwork, and I can respect that a lot more.



Yeah, what he said...

I'm sure this will come as a shock to some of you, but I have no objections to fan _art_.  Even when terribly inaccurate ('cause it's not as if all professional cover art on novels is accurate, either), it isn't misrepresenting the characters the way words written about them by someone else are.


----------



## Zero Angel

Weaver said:


> Yeah, what he said...
> 
> I'm sure this will come as a shock to some of you, but I have no objections to fan _art_.  Even when terribly inaccurate ('cause it's not as if all professional cover art on novels is accurate, either), it isn't misrepresenting the characters the way words written about them by someone else are.


See I find bad fan visual art as objectionable (if not more so) than bad fan written art. But I was an art major for a while there in the 00s and I think my primary objection is that it is easier to consume visual art than written art.


----------



## eodauthor

Ultimately, these sites can be a good tool to hone your writing skills. The more you write, the better you should become. As for the value of these fanfic sites; they don't seem to have hurt E. L. James the least bit.


----------



## hyluvian

When it's used to help you get through a rut because you can't drag yourself back to your original piece that you've been working on, or perhaps the writer is showing their devotion to a certain set of characters, or hell if you're trying to get into an established series with multiple authors (a la Dragonlance, comic books, etc) then there's nothing wrong.

But if 50 shades of Grey happens..... you must die.


----------



## eodauthor

Well put, hyluvian!


----------



## Penpilot

Slight tangent, but it relates. What do you think of this picture? Do you think of it as bad fan art? Are they making a mockery of the original? And is it a valid thing for them to do?


----------



## Mindfire

Penpilot said:


> Slight tangent, but it relates. What do you think of this picture? Do you think of it as bad fan art? Are they making a mockery of the original? And is it a valid thing for them to do?



I think that's more a parody or a joke than "fan art".


----------



## Zero Angel

Penpilot said:


> Slight tangent, but it relates. What do you think of this picture? Do you think of it as bad fan art? Are they making a mockery of the original? And is it a valid thing for them to do?



There is a theory that the Mona Lisa is Leonardo imagining himself as a woman. Maybe this was in response to that.


----------



## Steerpike

Zero Angel said:


> There is a theory that the Mona Lisa is Leonardo imagining himself as a woman. Maybe this was in response to that.



The painting is supposed to be a portrait of Lisa del Giocondo, the wife of a wealthy merchant...


----------



## Zero Angel

Steerpike said:


> The painting is supposed to be a portrait of Lisa del Giocondo, the wife of a wealthy merchant...



Yes, that is the accepted, traditional viewpoint and I'm not saying it's wrong. But there are a lot of alternative theories out there, including the one I mentioned. It is plausible that the parody-er heard of this theory and drew in the facial hair. 

@Mindfire: Good point, but a lot of parodies are done with loving intent. That is, just because it is a parody or mockery, doesn't mean it's not "fanart".


----------



## Penpilot

FYI this Mona Lisa with a moustache is considered a serious work of art. It's done by Marcel Duchamp in 1919. According to wikipedia, he's considered one of most important artists of the 20th century. Here are the wiki links if anyone cares. 

L.H.O.O.Q. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Marcel Duchamp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My point is one person's mockery is another person's message. I think sometimes someone can be paying homage or trying to create something original buy using something that exists. Sometimes that involves changing things drastically like Pride and Prejudice and Zombies. Other times, it's something like this Mona Lisa with a moustache. So IMHO, in general, to throw all of something under one umbrella, good or bad, is a mistake.


----------



## Chime85

To be honest, I have no issues with fan fiction. I would be flattered if someone wrote a piece of fanfiction based on my works. However, it should also be understood that there is a line between "official" works and fan works. It is only when that line gets blurred, is when I can see issues arising.


----------



## Kit

After reading a whole bunch of fanfiction, I have now written the first half of my first detailed make-out session.    LOL, I am such a blushing prude about writing this stuff. I'm blushing just writing about writing it. And no one has even removed any clothing as of yet.

I mentioned on another thread that nothing inspires me quite like reading *BAD* writing, and thinking "I could do so much better than this." I have found a few geniune gems in the fanfic, but overall it's a huge pile of What Not To Do. Since I'm not experienced in writing  smut scenes, it's been very helpful.

After seeing the eighteenth reference to someone's mouth as a "warm cavern", I put that on the list of "don't ever use this phrase".

After skimming the forty-fourth description of people doing the exact same seven acts in the EXACT SAME ORDER, I was thinking, "Okay, granted that probably half these authors are preteen virgins who have no reference material other than copy-pasting each other's stories on this site, but GIVE ME A BREAK!  At least once, ____ his _____ before you ______ the _____.... or have one person ______ and then the other person _____ instead of the same person doing everything. 

Oh, it was bad.


----------



## Gurkhal

Well my stance is that I think that fanfiction is great and can be a good start for (aspiring) writers. I don't read or write smut or the like of it, and have really never come across it either, but I suppose that I've been sheltered from such by my lack of interest in that detail.


----------



## Sparkie

I dislike fanfiction.  That does not mean, however, that I dislike writers of fanfiction.

Some people who write fanfiction have talent to spare.  They have it in them to write terrific stories.  That's my problem with fanfiction.  I just think talented writers should put their own ideas, characters, and worlds on display.


----------



## Chilari

Not everyone who writes fanfiction has it in them to write original fiction. They might be talented, but they're talented with established worlds and characters. Plus they might not want to be original, they might be quite happy sticking with fanfic. My fiance, who never wrote a word of fiction in his life until recently, uses very odd MLP fanfiction to pour out all of the darkness that has been in his head over the last two years of living with depression. And he is good at coming up with ideas, analysing existing stories and recognising weak writing, which makes him a very good beta reader, but he's just not interested in writing original fiction. I suspect after seeing me pour so much into it he thinks it's too much like hard work.


----------



## Sparkie

Chilari said:


> Not everyone who writes fanfiction has it in them to write original fiction. They might be talented, but they're talented with established worlds and characters. Plus they might not want to be original, they might be quite happy sticking with fanfic.



See, this is the mentality that I'm too stupid to understand, apparently.  Why not?  Why not push yourself just a little more?  Why not try for more originality?  Why not stretch out into the realms of undiscovered worlds, into the lives of unknown characters?

I'm not just being critical here.  I really don't get it and I want to understand.  Chilari, someone, please reason with me here.  Make the case for fanfic.  Help me understand.


----------



## Chilari

I think the idea that others who write don't want to write original fic is difficult for those of us who primarily write original fic to understand. But quite simply, as I understand it from my fiance, writing fanfiction is like a game. The pieces are all there - the world, the characters etc - and the writer just gets to play around. Writing original fiction is like creating a whole new game from scratch. Worldbuilding and character development is too much like hard work. Playing with what's already there is just messing around.

Originality isn't the be all and end all of writing. Far from it. Telling a good story is what is important. Why do you think there are so many different versions of Robin Hood and the King Arthur legend? The people writing those are really just writing fanfiction, yet we (readers, audiences) lap it up. There's something about the stories and characters which are already established that is so attractive to readers and writers alike. Capturing that essence and exploring it in greater depth or taking it in new directions is enough originality for some.

But basically, it boils down to everyone being different. I for example cannot comprehend how anyone would enjoy falling towards the earth at ridiculous speeds. That doesn't mean I think Felix Baumgartner and other skydivers are mentally ill or inhuman. You asked why people don't strive for originality; you could as easily ask why not everyone strives to break records or improve scientific understanding. The answer is because everyone wants something different from what they do. People who write only fanfiction just want some fun and to be part of a community with an interest in what they are interested in. It's really as simple as that.


----------



## Anders Ã„mting

Sparkie said:


> See, this is the mentality that I'm too stupid to understand, apparently.  Why not?  Why not push yourself just a little more?  Why not try for more originality?  Why not stretch out into the realms of undiscovered worlds, into the lives of unknown characters?
> 
> I'm not just being critical here.  I really don't get it and I want to understand.  Chilari, someone, please reason with me here.  Make the case for fanfic.  Help me understand.



Fanfiction is fanfiction, original fiction is original fiction. I think the crux of the matter is that you are automatically thinking about original fiction as a superior form of writing; that writing fanfiction somehow amounts to lowering oneself. You are thinking about it as "voluntarily being a bad kind of author."

For a dedicated fanfiction writer such as myself, however, your question pretty much amounts to: "Why would you eat apples when you can just push yourself a little bit further and eat oranges instead?" It's not that I'm not confident or productive enough to eat oranges, I just happen enjoy the taste of apples.


----------



## Aidan of the tavern

I have to be honest, I don't really like the idea of fanfiction.  I guess it would be a comliment in a way, but I would hate for someone to write fanfic based on my work, because they wouldn't know the characters like I do and I know I wouldn't like their portrayal.  I would find it infuriating if I read about one of my characters doing something which I know they wouldn't do.  Plus if the author decides to end a story where it should end, then it seems wrong to try and continue it.  I just think it would be a lot better to put that energy towards something original.  

However, despite that very negative opinion I did vote neutral, because if you're writing just for yourself, as opposed to for an audience, it can be a creatively and mentally stimulating exercise, and obviously can be a way of starting to write creatively, but I don't approve of writing for a wide audience unless the original author approves of your work.


----------



## Sinitar

I'm not sure why so many people think that fanfiction requires less effort than a full fledged novel simply because you have another author's world and characters at your disposal. It's true that you have a headstart, but that does not make the journey any less difficult. I wrote short stories, fanfics, and a novel that I did not finish. Of all my works, the fanfic seemed the most difficult. 

I find it easier to create my own world, my set of characters and my conflicts than manipulating existing ones. Establishing connections between the information you have and new ideas requires creativity. Coming up with a new plot that ties up loose ends and adds its share of new things also requires a good deal of effort. So, what exactly is "lazy and unimaginative" about fanfics?

Personally, I consider fanfics to be a great way to introduce new people to writing. Their eagerness to write down their ideas(And share them with other people if they want) will help them develop a taste for writing. Perhaps they will even make a hobby out of it. Motivation is a key aspect to writing, and fanfics give new writers the boost they need to start their journey.

Also, I don't understand why some people get so defensive when it comes to fanfics that use their work as canon. A human being purchased your work, dedicated his time to finish it AND liked it so much that he decided to write a fanfic. That's a privilege in my opinion. 



> Fanfic is a shortcut for those too lazy or feeble to do the heavy lifting of coming up with their own world and characters, or else for those who have the talent but lack confidence in their own creativity and want to play it safe by piggybacking on others.



I appreciate your opinion. What I don't appreciate is how you put every fanfic writer in the same bucket. Generalizing is also a shortcut for those too lazy or ignorant to do their share of research before posting on a forum, you know. Some fanfic writers are perfectly capable of writing Original Works. At the same time, they also write for fun. Why shouldn't they write the work that makes them happy?


----------



## Ireth

Sinitar said:


> Some fanfic writers are perfectly capable of writing Original Works. At the same time, they also write for fun. Why shouldn't they write the work that makes them happy?



As one who writes both fanfic and original works, I appreciate this. ^_^


----------



## Zero Angel

Sinitar said:


> I'm not sure why so many people think that fanfiction requires less effort than a full fledged novel simply because you have another author's world and characters at your disposal. It's true that you have a headstart, but that does not make the journey any less difficult.



I agree. I don't write traditional fanfiction precisely because it's too difficult to do right. I applaud people that do it right, especially if it can work in the original universe (even if not canonized). 

There's even official fanfiction available (at least that's what I call it). For instance, Brandon Sanderson's finishing of the Wheel of Time I consider fanfiction. The Doctor Who comics and novelizations I consider fanfiction because they're not canon, even though they're official. The LotR movies are a form of fanfiction (and every other adaptation there is for anything). 

For instance, I would enjoy reading good fanfiction exploring Harry Potter et al at the end of the series (but ignoring that dreadful future train scene, or at least not going that far). 

The very first story I ever wrote myself was in primary school and it was a fanfic involving Mega Man. I'll admit that I took some liberties and I did not know as much about the characters as I probably should have.


----------



## Steerpike

Zero Angel said:


> There's even official fanfiction available (at least that's what I call it). For instance, Brandon Sanderson's finishing of the Wheel of Time I consider fanfiction.



I don't know. Jordan apparently left extensive outlines and notes and those were followed. If George Lucas hires you to write a Star Wars novel and tell you "here are the characters, the plot outline, and everything that is going to happen, and I want you to follow it" is that Star Wars fanfiction? I don't think it is, personally.

EDIT: And if so, is _Empire Strikes Back_ fanfiction?


----------



## Steerpike

I think the easiest dividing line is whether something is an official product created by or made by the rights holder. If so, I don't think the fanfic label works well. So, if J.K. Rowling hires an author to write a story about Harry and Ginny's kids and their adventures, that's not fanfic. If someone just does it on their own, it's fanfic.


----------



## Mindfire

Sinitar said:


> I appreciate your opinion. What I don't appreciate is how you put every fanfic writer in the same bucket. Generalizing is also a shortcut for those too lazy or ignorant to do their share of research before posting on a forum, you know. Some fanfic writers are perfectly capable of writing Original Works. At the same time, they also write for fun. Why shouldn't they write the work that makes them happy?



You opinion certainly sounds great, but it loses its luster once you've seen fanfiction writers who think their continuity-ravaging narrative with a barely-there plot that serves only as a vehicle for the over-the-top sex secene between their two favorite characters is the best thing ever put on paper and crucify anyone who says otherwise. 

Yes, that's an exaggeration. But it makes the point.


----------



## Sinitar

Ok, so you encountered a bad fanfic. I'm sorry that you read that eye gouging abomination, but that does not mean all fanfics are bad. I encountered people who write equally crappy works and swear you like a pirate if your review is not filled with praise. So, the problem is not with the fanfics; it's the people who write the fanfics.


----------



## Zero Angel

Steerpike said:


> I don't know. Jordan apparently left extensive outlines and notes and those were followed. If George Lucas hires you to write a Star Wars novel and tell you "here are the characters, the plot outline, and everything that is going to happen, and I want you to follow it" is that Star Wars fanfiction? I don't think it is, personally.
> 
> EDIT: And if so, is _Empire Strikes Back_ fanfiction?



Yes. 

If it's fiction written by fans, even if official canon (which by the way, a lot of the Star Wars books are not official canon or at least are in a "substandard canon"), then I consider it fanfiction. 

Here's a thought experiment though to help explain why.

Imagine a writer starts writing a great fanfiction based on their favorite books. They think that it is the best thing since sliced bread and release it on the internet. Then that writer is called up by the original author and the work is acquired and adopted as canon. Is that fanfic or not?

If it is fanfic, then the only thing separating fanfic and not fanfic is the time of the acquisition. If it isn't, then you can keep your opinion I guess.

I still consider it fanfic. But you're saying something commissioned is not fanfic, even if the creator is a fan?

What about the LotR movies? I think we can all agree that they are not like the books at all. Even to the point of writing new scenes. Is that fanfic?

And what about Star Wars episode 7 being created by Disney and not George Lucas? 

I just consider it fanfic. I don't really need to convince anyone else that it is fanfic, but if I am successful in convincing you, then it definitely calls to question saying fanfic is bad as a rule.


----------



## Steerpike

What if something is commissioned and the writer who is commissioned actually hates the original work, but writes it anyway for the money. Then is it fanfic?

Also, what about the Empire Strikes Back question. Screenplay by Leigh Brackett.

I think there are so many permutations and exceptions that there's no way to get a solid definition of fanfic unless you draw a bright line somewhere. The easiest and most reasonable place to draw it is on the line between licensed/official works versus non-licensed, non-official works


----------



## Mindfire

Zero Angel said:


> Yes.
> 
> If it's fiction written by fans, even if official canon (which by the way, a lot of the Star Wars books are not official canon or at least are in a "substandard canon"), then I consider it fanfiction.
> 
> Here's a thought experiment though to help explain why.
> 
> Imagine a writer starts writing a great fanfiction based on their favorite books. They think that it is the best thing since sliced bread and release it on the internet. Then that writer is called up by the original author and the work is acquired and adopted as canon. Is that fanfic or not?
> 
> If it is fanfic, then the only thing separating fanfic and not fanfic is the time of the acquisition. If it isn't, then you can keep your opinion I guess.
> 
> I still consider it fanfic. But you're saying something commissioned is not fanfic, even if the creator is a fan?
> 
> What about the LotR movies? I think we can all agree that they are not like the books at all. Even to the point of writing new scenes. Is that fanfic?
> 
> And what about Star Wars episode 7 being created by Disney and not George Lucas?
> 
> I just consider it fanfic. I don't really need to convince anyone else that it is fanfic, but if I am successful in convincing you, then it definitely calls to question saying fanfic is bad as a rule.



I reject this idea because I think it defines what "fanfic" is far, far too broadly. In my opinion, fanfiction is amateur by definition and mostly nonprofit, which disqualifies your superstar examples from consideration.

EDIT: I mean "amateur" here not to refer to the quality of the work, but rather in the sense of "not professional", which goes hand in hand with the nonprofit part.


----------



## Penpilot

Steerpike said:


> What if something is commissioned and the writer who is commissioned actually hates the original work, but writes it anyway for the money. Then is it fanfic?



On the other side of this. Does this mean an author being a fan of their own works and worlds and writing stories based on works make those new works fan fiction too. So every sequel I write based on one of my worlds and works is a fan fiction of myself? Or if I'm a fan of my work in progress, does that make my work in progress a fan fiction too, even though it's the only work based on that world? 

Ok I think I just hut my brain.


----------



## wildink

I think that fanfiction is good one because it allows people to write scenes or endings the way they think they should have gone which can fuel the creative juices as they say but most importantly it helps give writers a place to start if they are just beginning.  Especially if they are having trouble coming up with something of their own it gives them a world in which to write in which gives them the experience and practice to better themselves until they are able to come up with something of their own.  I started in fanfiction and I have gotten better through it and now feel that I am ready to create something of my own.


----------



## Anders Ã„mting

Mindfire said:


> I reject this idea because I think it defines what "fanfic" is far, far too broadly. In my opinion, fanfiction is amateur by definition and mostly nonprofit, which disqualifies your superstar examples from consideration.
> 
> EDIT: I mean "amateur" here not to refer to the quality of the work, but rather in the sense of "not professional", which goes hand in hand with the nonprofit part.



I don't know, I kinda agree but on the other hand not really.

Like, I don't consider things like Brandon Sanderson writing WoT on commission to be fanfiction, and I absolutely don't consider movie adaptions or developing new material based on established brands to be fanfiction either. Still, I would call those good examples of why fanfiction writing might actually be a good skill to have. 

On the other hand, there are published novels out there that I would actually consider "professional fanfiction." Mostly derivative works that are published either with permission or thanks to public domain - stuff like unofficial sequels to classics like Peter Pan or The Phantom of the Opera, a whole bunch of Oz books written after L Frank Baum died, and I'm pretty sure someone once published a Tintin romance novel. (Which sounds extremely weird considering the complete lack of romance in the Tintin comics. But then again, it sounds _exactly _like the sort of thing a fanfiction writer might come up with.)


----------



## Zero Angel

Steerpike said:


> What if something is commissioned and the writer who is commissioned actually hates the original work, but writes it anyway for the money. Then is it fanfic?
> 
> Also, what about the Empire Strikes Back question. Screenplay by Leigh Brackett.
> 
> I think there are so many permutations and exceptions that there's no way to get a solid definition of fanfic unless you draw a bright line somewhere. The easiest and most reasonable place to draw it is on the line between licensed/official works versus non-licensed, non-official works


I just disagree with your line. If someone hates the work but is writing it then I would not designate it as fanfic, but I would have to know that they were not a fan. If I had reason to believe they were a fan (perhaps by lying) then I would designate it a fanfic. 

I believe I said "Yes" at the beginning of my post in response to the Empire Strikes Back being fanfic. In fact, I consider it as much a fanfic as I do Splinter of the Mind's Eye.

I think that official versus unofficial or licensed versus unlicensed is different than fanfiction. I just think fanfiction is fiction created by fans.



Penpilot said:


> On the other side of this. Does this mean an author being a fan of their own works and worlds and writing stories based on works make those new works fan fiction too. So every sequel I write based on one of my worlds and works is a fan fiction of myself? Or if I'm a fan of my work in progress, does that make my work in progress a fan fiction too, even though it's the only work based on that world?
> 
> Ok I think I just hut my brain.


Hmm. That's an interesting question. I guess it would depend on the level of narcissism? But I would consider re-imaginings to cross that line into the fan universe.


----------



## MadMadys

Penpilot said:


> On the other side of this. Does this mean an author being a fan of their own works and worlds and writing stories based on works make those new works fan fiction too. So every sequel I write based on one of my worlds and works is a fan fiction of myself? Or if I'm a fan of my work in progress, does that make my work in progress a fan fiction too, even though it's the only work based on that world?
> 
> Ok I think I just hut my brain.



In my opinion on what I view to be fan-fiction, that wouldn't really qualify.  Fan-fiction, to me, is when someone other than the creator takes characters, a world, some plot points, a history and other things already established and makes something on their own.  Probably with a new plot or a couple new characters but existing within the rules of the world already set-up.  When the creator does anything with their work, they're simply continuing with what is their intellectual property.  If I make a really great chair then copy it and make another I can't sue myself for copying... myself.

As to the greater question, of whether fan-fiction is good or bad, I agree with someone earlier who talked about it being a good stepping stone to writing your own material.  As I just mentioned, everything that can be a time consuming and tough (characters, setting, etc) is taken care of so you can work on descriptions, plot, and the "little" things.  Once you have those down well enough you can move on your own worlds and characters.  I know I wrote fan-fiction when I was 11 or 12 (won a district writing contest with one, even /gloat) but it wasn't long before I wanted to do my own thing.  When working with someone else's idea became constricting and, personally, a little insulting to my own abilities.

So in that aspect, I don't have any problem with fan-fiction as long as it isn't the writer's end point.  They should always be striving for personal freedom in writing.


----------



## Zero Angel

MadMadys said:


> As to the greater question, of whether fan-fiction is good or bad, I agree with someone earlier who talked about it being a good stepping stone to writing your own material.  As I just mentioned, everything that can be a time consuming and tough (characters, setting, etc) is taken care of so you can work on descriptions, plot, and the "little" things.  Once you have those down well enough you can move on your own worlds and characters.  I know I wrote fan-fiction when I was 11 or 12 (won a district writing contest with one, even /gloat) but it wasn't long before I wanted to do my own thing.  When working with someone else's idea became constricting and, personally, a little insulting to my own abilities.



Not to completely disagree with another person on here, but well, the question of what is hard or easy is pretty subjective. Personally, world-building to me is effortless. The hard thing for me is actually getting the story down in the way I want it to be consumed. So in that sense, building my own worlds, characters and even stories is not difficult to me at all. It would be more difficult for me to do fan-fiction than it would for me to do my own work.


----------



## Sinitar

> Not to completely disagree with another person on here, but well, the question of what is hard or easy is pretty subjective. Personally, world-building to me is effortless. The hard thing for me is actually getting the story down in the way I want it to be consumed. So in that sense, building my own worlds, characters and even stories is not difficult to me at all. It would be more difficult for me to do fan-fiction than it would for me to do my own work.



The same goes for me, so it boils down to preferences. If I want to write fanfiction, I do so because my version of that particular universe looks exciting. I don't intend to publish this work or show it to anybody else for that matter. It's written for my enjoyment only. 

Maybe it's me, but I always found fanfiction more challenging than Original Works. Once you create a world with its own culture, races and characters, the ideas are stuck into your head. You know every single detail about the creation process, so it's impossible to misinterpret certain details. Fanfiction, on the other hand, requires a huge amount of research if you want to do it right. I'm not that hardcore, but I've seen fanfic writers that pay attention to every single detail. Such dedication is to be commended, in my opinion.


----------



## Zero Angel

Sinitar said:


> Maybe it's me, but I always found fanfiction more challenging than Original Works. Once you create a world with its own culture, races and characters, the ideas are stuck into your head. You know every single detail about the creation process, so it's impossible to misinterpret certain details. Fanfiction, on the other hand, requires a huge amount of research if you want to do it right. I'm not that hardcore, but I've seen fanfic writers that pay attention to every single detail. Such dedication is to be commended, in my opinion.



Agreed here. The research and knowledge is built in when we come up with it ourselves. Otherwise it's learning and can be misinterpreted (although I'm a very good guesser).


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## Zireael

> I defend fanfiction as a writing activity that can help people to write their first stories, useful even though they are borrowing someone else's characters and world. The first stories that I wrote were fanfics, so I believe that there is some value in writing Fanfictions.



A very good point. Many authors started from fanfics and went on to write original works. This is not to say this is a rule which MUST absolutely be followed.



> On the other side of this. Does this mean an author being a fan of their own works and worlds and writing stories based on works make those new works fan fiction too. So every sequel I write based on one of my worlds and works is a fan fiction of myself? Or if I'm a fan of my work in progress, does that make my work in progress a fan fiction too, even though it's the only work based on that world?
> 
> Ok I think I just hut my brain.



Omg. I think you're not writing a fan fiction of yourself, since you're the author.



> Fanfiction, on the other hand, requires a huge amount of research if you want to do it right. I'm not that hardcore, but I've seen fanfic writers that pay attention to every single detail. Such dedication is to be commended, in my opinion.



This is true. I've spent hours to figure out if a particular idea of mine works or not.


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## Addison

I find that writing fan fiction is good under one circumstance: the lingering influence of whatever you just watched or read. After I watched one episode of Angel I was seeing him and his friends in all of my stories. Even other smaller stories I thought I could write but couldn't because Angel kept popping up. So I took a deep breath, wrote an Angel fan fiction and he was out of my head.  True, some cases need more than one fan-fic but it works.


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## saellys

Mindfire said:


> You know what I notice about these fanfic discussions? Nobody wants to defend slash. So the question is, if pretty much everyone agrees it's bad... _who writes this garbage?_



I'll defend it. If someone picks up on homoerotic subtext in their favorite work, they ought to be able to write about it. I may not always agree that the subtext was actually there--Sherlock Holmes is asexual, the end, and Steve Rogers and Tony Stark don't like each other on any level--but I will defend anyone's right to expand upon it as explicitly as they want.


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## saellys

I'm frankly surprised at some of the vitriolic replies and straight-up elitism over the last thirteen pages. We're all writers, and we all know how wonderful writing is, so what could possibly be negative about something that encourages people to write more? Especially when the writers of fanfiction are so often young people who may not be inspired to write otherwise. Even if you believe people should only ever write about their own original ideas (which is silly), fanfiction just means that the people who don't want to write their own original ideas aren't out in the marketplace, trying to get their work published and making things harder for all us "serious" writers. 

Contrary to a number of similar claims in this thread, no writer takes up fanfiction in order to avoid having to create their own worlds. That isn't anyone's motivation for writing stories in their particular fandom. They do it because they love the story and they have an idea specific to that universe that they feel compelled to write. If they totally mess up a character, nobody will tell them so as quickly as the other fans. In my experience, though, there are more fanfiction writers out there who take the time to get the characters and situations right--and even point out facets of the story that no one else noticed--than there are fanfiction writers who just do whatever they want, regardless of characterization or faithfulness to the original work. 

Furthermore, there are a metric tonne of fanfiction writers out there who also create their own original worlds and develop them into full-length novels or even a series. Cassandra Claire did this, and no matter how you feel about _City of Bones_ and it's sequels, she started with "The Very Secret Diaries of the Fellowship of the Ring" (which I found HILARIOUS when I was sixteen) and is now supporting herself with her original fantasy novels. 

I wrote my first fanfic when I was twelve. It was a crossover between _The X-Files_ and _Men In Black_, and I used it for an assignment (huzzah for homeschooling!). After that came some _Animorphs_ stories, and around the same time I discovered that other people were doing this on the Internet and there was a name for it. 

Then my _Star Wars_ phase happened, and I took my first step into an even larger world. I've been writing fanfiction in that universe for a dozen years or so now, and when the _Star Wars_ Expanded Universe went in some truly reprehensible directions, alternate universe stories (my own and others' work) were the only things that got me through. This is a really important aspect of fanfic--when a work you love does something you don't love, you can deal with it by writing or reading alternatives. I've read countless _Star Wars_ fanfiction with better characterization and internal logic than most of the licensed, published novels. I've read magnificent AUs that made me ache for a parallel world where R.A. Salvatore didn't kill off Chewbacca. Most importantly, I have read only a handful of fanfiction stories that could be considered worse than the prequels. Canon may be concrete, but that doesn't mean it's good. And on that note:



			
				Steerpike said:
			
		

> If George Lucas hires you to write a Star Wars novel and tell you "here are the characters, the plot outline, and everything that is going to happen, and I want you to follow it" is that Star Wars fanfiction? I don't think it is, personally.



I know you were just giving an example, but George Lucas doesn't consider anything that happened in the novels after Episode VI to be canon, just so you know. Sue Rostoni, Executive Editor of Lucas Books, handled continuity from Zahn's _Thrawn Trilogy_ up until her retirement last summer. Lucas scorned the books, all the way to the bank.

Now back to the subject at hand. Throughout my illustrious fanfiction career, I've also been writing original stories, both in academic settings and for my own enjoyment. My activity in fanfic writer communities has put me in touch with marvelous beta readers for my original work, as well. When I didn't have an original idea to work on, I kept my skills sharp with fanfiction. It has been far and away the most valuable writing tool in my arsenal. 

What really gets me is the number of Scribes who say they'd be offended/angry/hurt if readers wrote stories about their work. Whether or not you want to read it, fanfiction is a sign of popularity--not only are a bunch of people reading your stuff, but the enjoy it so much that they want to add to the world you've created. To respond to that by saying, "Nuh-uh, these are my characters and you have to leave them alone!" is downright histrionic, not to mention unrealistic and potentially alienating to your readers. Fanfiction is fair use. 

I would be overjoyed if _Camlann_ is someday popular enough to warrant a dedicated category on An Archive of Our Own or fanfiction.net. I would be fascinated to see how people interpret the characters and events. I hope it happens someday, because I know how powerful it can be to connect so deeply with a story and to share your interpretations with others who feel as strongly about it as you do. I believe everyone should have the right to do it and feel proud of what they wrote, without fear of being derided by writers who have never tried it. 

And in an Alanis Morissette-style twist of irony, I used all my writing time for today to compose this reply.


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## Steerpike

saellys said:


> What really gets me is the number of Scribes who say they'd be offended/angry/hurt if readers wrote stories about their work. Whether or not you want to read it, fanfiction is a sign of popularity--not only are a bunch of people reading your stuff, but the enjoy it so much that they want to add to the world you've created. To respond to that by saying, "Nuh-uh, these are my characters and you have to leave them alone!" is downright histrionic, not to mention unrealistic and potentially alienating to your readers. Fanfiction is fair use.



To address the last sentence first - fanfiction may be Fair Use. It is not necessarily Fair Use. Fair Use is highly fact-specific and depends on a number of factors. You also may have Trademark considerations if you're publishing, and Fair Use won't help you there.

As to why authors get mad about it...I think a lot of artists, both writers and otherwise, feel a very strong sense of "ownership" in their creations. Many times this sense of ownership extends well beyond what they are legally entitled to control. It is nevertheless there. Probably more of an emotional attachment than one based in reason.


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## saellys

Steerpike said:


> As to why authors get mad about it...I think a lot of artists, both writers and otherwise, feel a very strong sense of "ownership" in their creations. Many times this sense of ownership extends well beyond what they are legally entitled to control. It is nevertheless there. Probably more of an emotional attachment than one based in reason.



Fair enough. The fact remains that if you write a great story and set it loose into the world, it's going to end up being bigger than yourself. Resistance, as they say, is futile.


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## Steerpike

saellys said:


> Fair enough. The fact remains that if you write a great story and set it loose into the world, it's going to end up being bigger than yourself. Resistance, as they say, is futile.



Yep. There's not much sense expending time and emotional energy on it, in my view.


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## Zero Angel

saellys said:


> I've read magnificent AUs that made me ache for a parallel world where R.A. Salvatore didn't kill off Chewbacca. Most importantly, I have read only a handful of fanfiction stories that could be considered worse than the prequels. Canon may be concrete, but that doesn't mean it's good. And on that note:



SPOILER ALERT!


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## saellys

Zero Angel said:


> SPOILER ALERT!



My bad.


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## Zero Angel

So I've already stated my stance on fanfiction (I think it's fine), but I think we can all agree that what happened to Marion Zimmer Bradley is NOT fine (whether she was a moron for reading fanfiction of her works or not). 

Here's the fanlore wiki article: Marion Zimmer Bradley Fanfiction Controversy - Fanlore

It's, mostly, much ado about nothing, really. Maybe it was bigger when it was actually happening? But the gist is that Bradley read a fanfiction work, liked some of the ideas in it, offered the author money and a special dedication, and the author wanted to be considered a co-author for the novel Bradley was writing instead. 

Regardless of the veracity of what came after, lawyers did end up getting involved and Bradley's next novel was nixed. It's enough to wean me off reading fanfiction of my own works (if they ever get good enough to have fanfiction written...)

For a summary of the legal issues, there's this wikipedia page: Legal issues with fan fiction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## jtom

I wrote fan fiction for years.  It taught me how to write.  If someone wrote fan fiction of my work, I'd feel honored to be able to help others hone their writing skills so long as they're not going to rub out the serial numbers and take their fan fic work and try to publish it as their own.


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