# Science Fantasy...How?



## Devora (Dec 20, 2012)

I've known about this Sub-Genre for sometime. I've read Science Fiction and Fantasy stories, and I have had interest in writing these types of stories for sometime.

One problem: I don't know how to approach it.

I don't think i've ever read Fantasy Stories that mixed Science Fiction.

Does anyone have any advice for writing Science Fantasy, and can someone suggest some stories i can read so i can get an idea of what goes into a Science Fantasy story?


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## Leif Notae (Dec 20, 2012)

Hmmm, the ones I know of blend the sci-fi in with the fantasy as visitors being gods but they were astronauts or whatnot. There could be old technology lost to the ages that a new civilization finds as well. There are ways, but it gets more muddied as you go along.


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## Saigonnus (Dec 20, 2012)

Any technology that is sufficiently difficult to describe or understand by the majority of people is little different from magic. Terry Brook's Voyage of the Jerle Shannara touched a bit on rediscovering ancient machines when their airship powered by crystals needed a new mast or some such. The computer that ran the city was still active after thousands of years and there were robotic guardians the crew had to fight to find what they were after (I think a lost crewman).

Another possible book that could help is "The Magic Engineer" by L.E. Moddessit Jr. The story revolves around the creation of steam ships using both technology/science and magic. 

I suppose if you sit down and consider what sorts of technologies are available in your world and it seems viable within the construct of the world, then go for it. There are many things that SHOULD have been possible in the ancient world if only someone had thought about it. The ancient romans used a crude engine for mining (to pump out water I think), a few steps from locomotion but nevertheless if one of the great minds of the time had postulated it, they easily could have managed it; forever changing what the world would have been after.


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## Leif Notae (Dec 20, 2012)

Saigonnus said:


> Any technology that is sufficiently difficult to describe or understand by the majority of people is little different from magic. Terry Brook's Voyage of the Jerle Shannara touched a bit on rediscovering ancient machines when their airship powered by crystals needed a new mast or some such. The computer that ran the city was still active after thousands of years and there were robotic guardians the crew had to fight to find what they were after (I think a lost crewman).



In fact, the entire Shannara series is a post-apoc modern world evolved to fantasy races. He took his inspiration from Tolkein's stance on his world being a pre-apocalyptic evolution on the modern world...


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## Saigonnus (Dec 20, 2012)

Leif Notae said:


> In fact, the entire Shannara series is a post-apoc modern world evolved to fantasy races. He took his inspiration from Tolkein's stance on his world being a pre-apocalyptic evolution on the modern world...



He did indeed, just used that trilogy in particular since the topic is science in fantasy. I think if an author replaced (whether wholly or partially) magic with realistic technology it would have the feel of a fantasy novel but with its elements of science. Breeding and training giant worms for mining purposes (a concept I had for a sci-fi novel) could be considered technology replacing magic even in a fantasy setting. Sure, you COULD use control magic to accomplish the same thing in a traditional fantasy, but why do that when you could add depth to the story describing the process of said breeding/training and implements used?


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## Steerpike (Dec 20, 2012)

Star Wars is a good example of fantasy in space. Science elements are lacking so it depends on how rigorous you want to be on that score.


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## JadedSidhe (Dec 20, 2012)

In what I'm writing, I've always called it Scifi, but there isn't a whole lot of 'science' in it. There's aliens, space travel, different worlds. An alternate reality (yep, the now overdone 'big business takes over the world's governments and proceeds to ruin the environment and makes Earth unlivable, so everyone beats feet for space) 

I've been dinged quite a few times on it, aka 

"Where's the science?"
"Its there, you just haven't gotten to it yet."
"But, where's the science?"
*head*desk*

I'm at the point I'm ready to just say its a space fantasy.

I'd suggest just write it. Include what science fiction you want/need and don't worry about it otherwise.


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## Devora (Dec 20, 2012)

That's one of the problem with science fiction is that everyone expects it to be "Hard" Sci-fi instead of "Soft" Sci-fi.

But what i'm curious is is what goes into Science Fantasy. How does one mix Isaac Asimov with J.R.R. Tolkien, so to speak?


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## Saigonnus (Dec 20, 2012)

Take a fantasy world with all the classic elements present; castles, villages, elves, dragons, critters etc... but with technology instead of magic or a combination of the two. Steam powered carriages, greek fire bombs instead of fireballs, lightning coils run off of batteries (they've found batteries 2200 years old in Iraq), explosives for use in engineering, breeding worms for mining like i'd mentioned before, maybe dragon breeding as well for mounts. 

I personally think if you add too many things that seem like something we could do now... internal combustion, cell phones, electricity grid, computers; then it falls more under a "modern fantasy" than a "science" fantasy. As I said, just think of technologies available from the middle ages to now and see if you can think of way a medieval culture could make it without modern tools/chemicals etc and use only things available withing the framework of the story. You could certainly "handwave" the science in many cases as long as it seems to work within the context of the story.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Dec 21, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Star Wars is a good example of fantasy in space.



I'm not sure I agree on that. It has similar stylistic influences but I have a hard time pointing at anything in particular as belonging more to fantasy than science fiction. Even the Force is mostly psychic powers with a religion built around them, and psychics is a staple of the sci-fi genre. 

A better example, I guess, would be Warhammer 40.000, which at least has bona fide demons and gods. Lovecraft's stuff, or Lovecraftian inspired sci-fi like Event Horizon may also count.

Basically, I think sci-fi fantasy has to explore both typical sci-fi themes like technology, exploration of space and human development (or lack thereof), while at the same time having kind of a magical/supernatural bent to it.


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## Addison (Dec 23, 2012)

I thought there was one author who was a pioneer of this sub genre. Love...something. One of the first big time authors. 
My advice would be to make a list of what elements of fantasy and science fiction are in your story. Is there a way for these elements to meet, bump heads, in the plot?   I'm have two story ideas which are Science-Fantasy. One is a science-fiction post-apocolypse type place where magic is harvested like produce and the government has it strictly guarded and distributed and it's delivered in flying cars to under water cities and such.  Another is still in development, but the humans regard the powerful evil as aliens when they exhibit magical powers.   You just make a list, mix and match, and when you have everything lined out in your head, you're set.


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## ThinkerX (Dec 23, 2012)

> I thought there was one author who was a pioneer of this sub genre. Love...something. One of the first big time authors.



That would be 'Lovecraft'.  Many of his stories featured a science so utterly alien that from a 20th century human perspective, it might as well have been magic.



> A better example, I guess, would be Warhammer 40.000, which at least has bona fide demons and gods. Lovecraft's stuff, or Lovecraftian inspired sci-fi like Event Horizon may also count.



Which is kinda sorta what my world is:  'Magic' is highly developed Psi, the result of aliens modifying the genetics of humans they brought to this world.  Most of the aliens are long gone, the stuff of myth and legend, but some Alien tech still exists - but much of it requires a degree of psi potential to operate.

There used to be a real world prediction that in X number of years, a person would control their computer not by keyboard or voice, but through direct thought - this is similiar.

This world is undergoing a painful technological/scientific emergence: telescopes are common, gunpowder weapons are being experimented with, bicycles went from a military creation to widespread public use.  

Meanwhile, a new (?) batch of technologically advanced aliens is starting to establish themselves, and Lovecraftian Gods laugh in the background.


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## Devora (Dec 23, 2012)

i don't see how Lovecraft's works would be science-fantasy. I've always thought of his stuff as Weird Fiction (a sub-genre of horror), which bordered towards Dark Fantasy.


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## Addison (Dec 23, 2012)

His work was like Alice in Wonderland meets Dracula almost.


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## Shockley (Dec 23, 2012)

Some thoughts:

 - Lovecraft was considered science-fiction at the time he was writing, and 'weird fiction' only came into being once people started recognizing that Lovecraft (and Howard, De Camp, etc.) were writing something that was revolutionizing the industry. So, Lovecraft was working in 'weird fiction' and 'science fiction' in the same way that Beethoven composed in classical and romantic. 

 At the time, Lovecraft was well-regarded for being up to date on scientific concepts and ideas. That's why he's one of the first authors to use Darwinian evolution as a plot-point, for example. It's just that the 1910s and 1920s were really, really bizarre times for science in the anglosphere, and it looks silly and fantastical in retrospect.

 - Star Wars is fantasy in space, no matter what anyone says. At the end of the day, it's still magic knights sword-fighting to determine the fate of the world. You can throw in ships, lasers, multiple planets, etc. but at the end of the day that's just window setting.

 I think the definition comes down like this: Fantasy is a story with elements that are impossible, delving into magic and mysticism. Science-Fiction is the long-term analysis of social or scientific trends and innovations in a fictional framework. These two definitions can overlap or be completely separate.


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## Devora (Dec 23, 2012)

Addison said:


> His work was like Alice in Wonderland meets Dracula almost.



That's Dark Fantasy.


Does anyone know any other authors that have written Science-Fantasy?


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## Shockley (Dec 23, 2012)

Back to the original point (sorry for participating in divergence), Anne McCaffrey's Pern series might well fit the idea. Madeleine L'engle's A Wrinkle in Time as well, though that is geared towards children - it's super trippy and good though, if you're in the right mood.


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## Devora (Dec 28, 2012)

Any other authors to suggest? Anyone?


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## ThinkerX (Dec 28, 2012)

Kings 'Dark Tower' series almost qualifies, in that it features both magic and science.

I also vaguely remember a number of 'one-offs' which tended to feature either

A) a scientist from earth being transported to a fantasy world, with attendent attempted explanations;

B) a person who is actually two people, one in a fantasy world, the other in our world, with ones actions affecting the other.

Both are a bit marginal, though.


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## Addison (Dec 30, 2012)

There's another story I read with I think is very Sci-fantasy. Oh what was the author's name?....China Melville or something. The story was set in a steampunk, sci-fi fantasy setting with aliens and other fantastic creatures. A bit of a head spinner but a great read.


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## TheDarkFrontier (Jan 4, 2013)

I've heard a lot of people say Star Wars is Science Fantasy, whereas Star Trek is Science Fiction. Redlettermedia gave a pretty good comparison by saying in Star Trek, a lot of time was spent explaining how the warp drive engines worked, all the ins and outs of the engines, and how they propelled the ship faster than light. That's got a lot of the fiction element. As opposed to Star Wars, where the engines are just there to get from A to B, and nothing else. And then you have all the stuff with the Force too.


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## Addison (Jan 4, 2013)

Star Trek, I believe, is a sub-genre called Hard Science Fiction. The part where a good part of the story is spent explaining how the science works.  But you're write, the Force in Star Wars does give it a fantasy feel.


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## Mindfire (Jan 4, 2013)

Hmm... science fantasy, eh? Well I guess what we'd need to do is take the old fantasy tropes and reinterpret them in a sci-fi context. Let's see.

Prophesied Hero:







Aging but Badass Mentor(s):










Spunky Princess Who May or May Not Need Rescuing:


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## Mindfire (Jan 4, 2013)

Powerful Magic:






Sword >> Everything Else






Dark Lord:






Evil Wizard:


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## Mindfire (Jan 4, 2013)

Faceless Mooks:






Prequels:


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## Mindfire (Jan 4, 2013)

Trilogy Fetish:








"Science Fantasy?" Please, even if you could make something like that, it would never get anywhere.


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## Devora (Jan 4, 2013)

why is everyone using Star Wars as the exemplar of Science Fantasy? Surely there are other examples.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jan 4, 2013)

Christopher Mahaney said:


> why is everyone using Star Wars as the exemplar of Science Fantasy? Surely there are other examples.



What would be a more prolific than Star Wars to use as an example?


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## Steerpike (Jan 5, 2013)

Star Trek is not hard science fiction. There is too much made-up pseudo science in it. 

Other examples of Science Fantasy would include the Warhammer 40K Universe, in my view.


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## Devora (Jan 5, 2013)

It's just that it's becoming the Only example in this thread.. there has to be other examples of Science Fantasy.


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## TheDarkFrontier (Jan 5, 2013)

Christopher Mahaney said:


> It's just that it's becoming the Only example in this thread.. there has to be other examples of Science Fantasy.



Of course there are other examples, but everyone knows Star Wars, the characters, story and plot elements are so iconic that its just an easy example to use. As others have pointed out, there are a lot of fantasy tropes that are recognisable in Star Wars. If you compare those tropes to say, Star Trek, a lot of things change. I know there will be flaws in comparison, as Star Wars is a film series, whilst Star Trek is a tv series, and consequently, the two will be very different. 

As for Star Trek being hard science fiction - that's debatable. There is a hell of a lot of pseudo-science in it, which started to appear in Season 7 of TNG, and pretty much completely dominated Voyager, which is why a lot of people I think regard it as the beginning of the end for Trek. More often than not, Voyager would just pad out the story with technobabble explanations, which is exactly what The Matrix sequels did - the idea of "if we just babble complicated words, people will assume we're clever and not question it". Haha. Not fooled by lazy writing  The original and the first few seasons of TNG were arguably hard sci-fi, as the producers hired a team to check the latest physics reports from NASA, to ensure that it was as realistic as possible.


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## Nameback (Jan 5, 2013)

In the world I'm writing right now, there's some stuff that is undeniably magic, but also what the humans worship as "gods" are really more like what we would traditionally call aliens. They're sort of Lovecraftian, monstrous horrors who are almost totally indifferent to humanity. The humans depict them and worship them as humanoid gods with names and jobs and traditional polytheistic characteristics, but in "reality" they're nothing like that.

Also I'm debating one of the characters finding out eventually that there are other worlds with human beings on them, sort of alluding to the idea that this fantasy world exists in the same universe as Earth.

Would this be "Science Fantasy?"


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## ThinkerX (Jan 5, 2013)

> In the world I'm writing right now, there's some stuff that is undeniably magic, but also what the humans worship as "gods" are really more like what we would traditionally call aliens. They're sort of Lovecraftian, monstrous horrors who are almost totally indifferent to humanity. The humans depict them and worship them as humanoid gods with names and jobs and traditional polytheistic characteristics, but in "reality" they're nothing like that.
> 
> Also I'm debating one of the characters finding out eventually that there are other worlds with human beings on them, sort of alluding to the idea that this fantasy world exists in the same universe as Earth.



Sounds a lot like my world...though the religion is mostly monotheistic, with the Lovecraftian things counted as 'demons' (though one or two sneak in as 'saints').

The magic is mostly PSI...the ancient aliens wanted some of their human subjects to have a degree of psi ability, so imbued a few with the talent.  (much of the alien tech required psi ability to operate).  Later, with the aliens mostly gone, the psi stuff became 'magic'.  (this is for the more 'normal' aliens.  There are also quite a few very powerful Lovecraftian entities with an interest in this world, which by human polytheistic standards, do kinda sorta count as 'gods' - and an entire subset of misguided magicians interested in tapping to the power of these horrific entities).


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## TheDarkFrontier (Jan 6, 2013)

I think that could be classed as science fantasy. Mass Effect is a good example of science fantasy, the whole thing with the ... bio..whatever it is  That's a sort of a force power, there's a lot of that kind of thing involved.


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## Logos&Eidos (Apr 12, 2014)

The op I'd have to asks first and foremost what do you want and what do you think is cool. Once you have that clear in your mind begin following the chain of logic to arrive at the world and story that you desire. 

I like swords and I like blasters and i refuse to choose between them,thus science fantasy is my genre of choice.


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## psychotick (Apr 13, 2014)

Hi,

Science fantasy is an ill defined genre, which basically means the mixing of fantasy tropes with science fiction tropes. Star Wars fits perfectly within the genre by fairly much any definition because it is essentially a traditional fantasy story set in a science type universe without any sort of explanation. By contrast Greene's Deathstalker series is science fiction because even though its essentially a fantasy story set in a science universe, the author makes a clear attempt to ground it in some sort of logical science type jargon. He even explains the swords. Star Trek has crossed the divide - but always been wonderful. In TOS there were so many ancient Greek gods turning up and a lot of others, that you could only describe those episodes as pure fantasy. (And a desperate desire to get Shatner to take his shirt off!) But then it also tries to ground a lot of its impossible stuff in technology.

But Star Wars is far from alone.

Someone mentioned L Sprague De Camp, and his enchanter series is well and truly science fantasy (and excellent fun by the way). To that I'd add all the Gor books - pure sword and sorcery in a supposedly parallel world. McCaffrey's Pern of course. And probably a fair chunk of steam punk if not all of it.

The test I think is to ask when you read a book if the main elements of it are plausible or not. If you can reasonably conceive of a technology that can do what you need it to to make your story, then you can squeeze it into sci fi. If it's complete fantasy, well then it's fantasy. And when you mix them its science fantasy.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Hainted (Apr 15, 2014)

Shadowrun would fall into this category, given some of the elements of Terry Pratchett's writing I'd say some of the Discworld books would fall into this category


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