# What Happen's after the Hero's or You saved the world now what?



## Logos&Eidos (Jan 9, 2017)

"Humans write to figure out how things are." - Varric Tethras, Dragon Age Inquistion. Party banter.


Recently I bought a copy of "The Anatomy of Story: 22 Steps to Becoming a Master Storyteller", I haven't finished it do to my reading backlog, I'm slow to finish none fiction. I'm glad that I bought it because something in those early pages blew my mind. The fact that so many stories are tales of maturation, even stories that aren't obvious coming of age stories.

The Hero or Heroine begins their respective journey as figurative or literally children possessing traits associated with being immaturity and or weakness, and through the events of the story are molded into an adult by then of the story.  

This revelation was mind blowing because it answered one question that had bugged me for years.

"Why does the story end right when the Hero has gotten their stuff together and is ready to do battle with Godlings?"

I can't be the only person who's had that question buzzing around in their skulls?

The answer is that the story was about the transformation of a weak and immature individual into a strong productive adult. All the trials and tribulations through out the story were there to facilitate the transformation of the hero. Thus once a Hero has come into their power the story ends, because the story was about the rise to power/maturity not what to do now that you've attained those qualities?


In essence many stories,especially among the most beloved are about "becoming" rather than "doing". The Star Wars Original Trilogy for example.

The Prequel Trilogy was about a Villain Becoming or the Villain's Journey.

I've yet to see a version of it that I'd consider definitive, however This is the first one that I'd stumbled across.


The Hero's Journey is about growing up...so what happens afterwards? What's the story about navigating the world of power and adult responsibility, what happens after the evil Overlord has been beaten?


Have the steps of a Post Hero's Journey ever been mapped out?


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## Steerpike (Jan 9, 2017)

Eve Forward's book _Villains By Necessity_ takes place after the evil lord has been beaten. That's pretty much where it starts. Not exactly following up on the themes you're talking about, but interesting.


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## skip.knox (Jan 10, 2017)

The challenge there would be to continue the theme of change. If the hero has become who he's meant to become, then he has reached stasis. The next story would have to be about further change--a fall from grace, apotheosis to godhood, ... hm, that's about all I can come up with.

While the first could be interesting, it almost requires a series; otherwise, we'd not be invested enough in the hero to have sympathy with the fall. And, of course, we'd need a third book which restored the hero to hero status, in which case we'd be back where we started at the end of book one.

I see the theoretical interest, but I'm not sure it will translate into real story.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jan 10, 2017)

To say every change story is a bildungsroman inside of a hero's journey to interpret in some respect or another is a tad loose with definition if you ask me. You can run with that if you like, upto you. I would also say that stories end where the story ends... so to speak. Star Wars 4 ends with the destruction of the Death Star, the established goal of the story... 5 does not end, but spins into 6, why? Because the goal wasn't met. 6 ends because the goal is met, the Empire is broken with the death of the emperor and Vader. The maturation of the character, as such, is taking place inside of a greater structure.

In more literary works, the bildungsroman may be the story, but in typical hero's journey style the growth is specific to effecting a specific story ending goal, so the story ends. In EP4 Luke destroys the Death Star but Vader spins out of control into space, still alive, not only leaving a big bad guy alive, but foreshadowing Luke's need to continue to grow in order to face his father and defeat him and the Empire. This sort of "yes, but" ending is a great hook to spin into another cycle of growth.

To sequal this sort of story is interesting. The character can go on another journey of growth (but not necessarily a bildungsroman IMO) which may or may not place them in a menotr style role, a new character takes on the journey of growth, or they can become James Bond or generic Super Man type character who doesn't really change any more. That's 5am off the top thinking, anyhow. The trouble with option 3 is that if you've got a successful first installment (still using Star Wars) then suddenly switching to an unchanging hero figure is probably going to be off to the audience's sensibilities. If Luke were just ready to go after Vader day one post Death Star, matured into Vader slaying James "Luke" Bond, fans aren't going to be very happy with that story.

Again, Luke... in 6 we see a very similar setup to 4, a death star needs destroying, but it isn't Luke going after it because he has matured beyond that storyline. It's no longer about accepting the Force, it's about his overcoming his daddy issues. The big new death star has become a prop, a symbol, not a goal, the war was won by killing the top bad guys. Which in part is probably why the destruction of the new death star falls far more flat than in the original... aside from redundancy.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jan 10, 2017)

Interestingly enough, breaking down the Kung Fu Panda movies would probably give an idea of one way to sequal a typical Hero's Journey structure.


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## Russ (Jan 10, 2017)

Personally after I save the world I like to have a cold beer.

In the traditional hero's journey many suggest that there is a another part after saving the world where the hero returns home to either set things back in order, or to irrevocably change the order of things.  Sometimes the hero is so changed he cannot go home.

I think there is a lot of thought given and discussion around the area of what happens with the hero after he saves the world.


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## Mindfire (Jan 10, 2017)

Aside from the above mentioned apotheosis and fall from grace, there's another possibility. After the hero completes his own journey, he could become a mentor figure. After all now that he's (probably) the most powerful good dude around, he's more or less stepped into the position that his own mentor once occupied, which is now probably empty due to narrative conventions. He can fulfill that role in someone else's journey, but this time we see how it plays out from the mentor's point of view. Instead of the challenges of growing up, we see all the challenges associated with parenthood. The circle is complete. Another possibility is that during his original journey, the hero made a mistake or took a shortcut that he didn't see the immediate consequences of, but those consequences show up later in a big way and he has to deal with it. It's not quite as thematically poetic, but still makes for a good sequel.


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## Insolent Lad (Jan 10, 2017)

The advantage of having interesting secondary characters or a sidekick is that one can turn to their stories after the hero retires. I prefer to let him/her have a well-deserved rest, maybe give a little advice at most or be remembered by those who carry on. Moreover, we _know_ that hero by then and there may not be much more of interest to say about him.


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## Logos&Eidos (Jan 10, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> The challenge there would be to continue the theme of change. If the hero has become who he's meant to become, then he has reached stasis. The next story would have to be about further change--a fall from grace, apotheosis to godhood, ... hm, that's about all I can come up with.
> 
> While the first could be interesting, it almost requires a series; otherwise, we'd not be invested enough in the hero to have sympathy with the fall. And, of course, we'd need a third book which restored the hero to hero status, in which case we'd be back where we started at the end of book one.
> 
> I see the theoretical interest, but I'm not sure it will translate into real story.



@ skip.knox

Since I'm not interest in failure stories at the moment that leaves me looking into the "apotheosis to godhood", as the model of what does the Hero do after they've won?  Do you know of any write up on the steps of the Ascension plot? 





Demesnedenoir said:


> To say every change story is a bildungsroman inside of a hero's journey to interpret in some respect or another is a tad loose with definition if you ask me. You can run with that if you like, upto you. I would also say that stories end where the story ends... so to speak. Star Wars 4 ends with the destruction of the Death Star, the established goal of the story... 5 does not end, but spins into 6, why? Because the goal wasn't met. 6 ends because the goal is met, the Empire is broken with the death of the emperor and Vader. The maturation of the character, as such, is taking place inside of a greater structure.
> 
> In more literary works, the bildungsroman may be the story, but in typical hero's journey style the growth is specific to effecting a specific story ending goal, so the story ends. In EP4 Luke destroys the Death Star but Vader spins out of control into space, still alive, not only leaving a big bad guy alive, but foreshadowing Luke's need to continue to grow in order to face his father and defeat him and the Empire. This sort of "yes, but" ending is a great hook to spin into another cycle of growth.
> 
> ...






@ Demesnedenoir

Well not power strictly, stories of transformation that are about maturation in some form or fashion deal with moving from a figurative childlike state to adulthood. When viewed over the course of the OT Luke does indeed follow the Hero's journey to a T, with each of the three episodes containing steps of the Hero's Journey.

I do agree with you.
The Hero either has start again after a fall, change again, or the story centers around an already settled character - which concerned with the character doing rather than being.

Which leads me to the question what is the story path for a hero doing?



Russ said:


> Personally after I save the world I like to have a cold beer.
> 
> In the traditional hero's journey many suggest that there is a another part after saving the world where the hero returns home to either set things back in order, or to irrevocably change the order of things.  Sometimes the hero is so changed he cannot go home.
> 
> I think there is a lot of thought given and discussion around the area of what happens with the hero after he saves the world.




@ Russ

That's what I'm looking for, the next journey.
Information on the Hero's Journey is easy to find, so far I've seen nothing on that next tale.
The only films that I recall dealing with a post hero's journey are the last two Matrix films;a criticism I've heard of them is that Neo shouldn't have mastered his powers by the end of the first film,and that he had nowhere to go.

Neo did have someplace to go it just wasn't the Hero's Journey because he'd already finished it in the first film; he was on the path to ascension.



Mindfire said:


> Aside from the above mentioned apotheosis and fall from grace, there's another possibility. After the hero completes his own journey, he could become a mentor figure. After all now that he's (probably) the most powerful good dude around, he's more or less stepped into the position that his own mentor once occupied, which is now probably empty due to narrative conventions. He can fulfill that role in someone else's journey, but this time we see how it plays out from the mentor's point of view. Instead of the challenges of growing up, we see all the challenges associated with parenthood. The circle is complete. Another possibility is that during his original journey, the hero made a mistake or took a shortcut that he didn't see the immediate consequences of, but those consequences show up later in a big way and he has to deal with it. It's not quite as thematically poetic, but still makes for a good sequel.



@ Mindfire

Has someone done a Mentor' s Journey write up? 




Insolent Lad said:


> The advantage of having interesting secondary characters or a sidekick is that one can turn to their stories after the hero retires. I prefer to let him/her have a well-deserved rest, maybe give a little advice at most or be remembered by those who carry on. Moreover, we _know_ that hero by then and there may not be much more of interest to say about him.



@ Insolent Lad

The potential lack of interest in a hero "doing" verses a "becoming", is in part because we've  grown so accustom to stories of growth and transformation, that we complain and criticize when they don't happen. A story about dealing with the burdens of power and responsibility could be very entertaining.

The closest book to the post Hero's Journey that I ever read was the second Mistborn novel.


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## Malik (Jan 10, 2017)

My series actually starts ten years after the hoariest of fantasy cliches: a young man from Earth discovers he's a long-lost prince and the son of a sorcerer in another world, and then travels there and uses his new-found magic and modern knowledge to win back his father's throne. (I still have that story; I'll eventually release it as a prequel once I've made it suck a lot less.)

Ten years on, though, a neighboring kingdom is losing its mind because they've discovered that the ultra-powerful sorcerer-king next door is -- from their perspective -- a demon conjured from another world. A third kingdom has also figured this out, and is allying with the demon, because they know a winner when they see one. The series begins when one of the neighboring realms launches a mission to Earth to find advisers to help them figure this guy out and, if necessary, counter him. 

So, yeah. What's the line? "Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end."


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## Chessie (Jan 10, 2017)

They live happily ever after. Duh.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Jan 10, 2017)

In K.M. Weiland's book on character arcs, she talks about three different types of character arcs: Positive Change, Flat and Negative Change.

Ms. Weiland lays out the story structure for all three types of character arcs. The flat arc could be used as a follow-up to the Hero's Journey.

She makes the observation that the first Thor movie has a positive change arc. She then claims that the sequel has a flat arc, with Thor acting in accordance with his learned Truth rather than growing to discover it as he did in the first movie.

James Bond movies usually have flat character arcs. 007 learned his Truths long ago, and is now putting them to good use by continually making the world a better place, and changing the lives of those who encounter him. He's skilled and confident in his skills, not able to improve much, and doesn't show much interest in changing himself, for better or worse. He just gets out there and gets the job done. The excitement for the audience is in seeing someone with skills being tested and overcoming the obstacles thrown in his path.


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## FifthView (Jan 10, 2017)

The "flat" arc is rather common for a type of episodic ensemble show on television, like the original _Star Trek_ or a great number of sitcoms, especially in the past.  Even when a character might appear to go through "change" during a given episode, the character would start the next episode not significantly different than what he was at the first of every episode preceding that episode.  The longer a series ran, the greater the chance that some _tiny_ bit of character change might occur over its entire run, but this could be due to factors like aging child actors, different scriptwriters and directors, and any number of things not very relevant to the issue of story/character arcs.  

The same sort of thing can be seen in the earliest years of superhero comic books.  Superman was always superman, the exact same character, no matter what adventures he had.  (Eventually, writers and publishers began to realize that readers would grow bored and wander off to read about other heroes, so they started writing stories more driven by or informed by character change/growth.)

The trick in this sort of story is to keep throwing the characters and readers/viewers new curveballs. How will  these familiar, known quantities work through the solutions?  Another example might be Agatha Christie's Poirot.  Poirot changes not much at all; but each murder mystery is different, with different types of clues, and we want to see Poirot's solution.  (In truth, some of Christie's books seem to repeat themselves, judging by this series which probably wasn't meant to be watched in marathon sessions!)



Michael K. Eidson said:


> In K.M. Weiland's book on character arcs, she talks about three different types of character arcs: Positive Change, Flat and Negative Change.
> 
> Ms. Weiland lays out the story structure for all three types of character arcs. The flat arc could be used as a follow-up to the Hero's Journey.
> 
> ...


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## FifthView (Jan 11, 2017)

Logos&Eidos said:


> The Hero's Journey is about growing up...so what happens afterwards? What's the story about navigating the world of power and adult responsibility, what happens after the evil Overlord has been beaten?



I've been wanting to start a thread about character wants and needs because a lot of the advice given about plot and story in various recent threads seems to focus very heavily on these things, and I think many types of story are not driven by deep, growth-type character change.

I'm not sure if you are familiar with Orson Scott Card's idea of the "M.I.C.E Quotient," but the acronym is meant to address four principle story types:


Milieu
Idea
Character
Event

Knowing which story type you are writing will go a long way in being able to determine how to structure it, including where/how to start the story.  I won't go into great detail here, but I will say that all these elements will play _some_ role in every story.  It's just that different story types will have a different driver, different focus, and different ending-place.

I happen to believe that every story is about _change_.  But not every story is about deep growth-type character change.  Take my example, mentioned in my last comment, of _Agatha Christie's Poirot_.  The mystery story is an Idea story.  Something needs to be discovered, or something discovered needs to be understood by the end of the tale.  The detective, Poirot, doesn't undergo deep character change; rather, he's placed into the midst of a mystery needing to be solved.  The change that is occurring in the tale is that 


a crime has been committed (usually murder)
the circumstances of that crime are a mystery to everyone but the person or persons who committed it, with the possible exception of a witness who doesn't spill the beans immediately
Poirot is called in to investigate the mystery (or, as is often the case, is already present but now sees this mystery before him and feels compelled to solve it)
Poirot solves the mystery and reveals to everyone who perpetrated the crime.

So the overall change is a movement from mystery to revelation.

But this doesn't mean Poirot changes not at all.  He does.  He changes from a state of being mystified, ignorant to a state of knowing what has happened.  One might label this a kind of "growth" in his experience (he'll never forget the case, so he has "grown" in the sense of having a broader experience), but this is hardly the kind of growth/maturation often discussed for "character change,"and the primary point of each story is not to show or have Poirot becoming a more experienced man.  (I am addressing the television show.  I've not read any of the books.)

The _change arc_ for a particular Event story (heh, I'll call it that) might be *Threat to the world or to a character is introduced* ------> *Threat is removed. *  (Threat to Enterprise appears; the crew of the Enterprise removes it.)

The _change arc_ for a particular Milieu story might be *Character finds himself in a strange new land* -----> *Character survives the experience and returns to his home or decides to stay in that new land.*

In any Idea, Event, or Milieu story, there _can be_ deep character growth.  But there are other types of character change possible, like going from a state of ignorance about a very particular thing to understanding it, or going from a state of having no friends and allies to having friends and allies....

So to your question above:  A character can move from a state of finding himself in the "new" world of politics or adult responsibility (new for him) to establishing himself there.  Maybe he _does_ grow in experience; or maybe the mystery of who to trust as an ally and who not to trust is resolved instead.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Jan 11, 2017)

My characters sometimes change drastically throughout their stories; othertimes barely at all, instead reacting to things happening to them.


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## Miskatonic (Jan 12, 2017)

If you are a comic book superhero then you're just waiting for the next super-villain to come around and screw everything up.


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## Miskatonic (Jan 12, 2017)

Chessie said:


> They live happily ever after. Duh.



In this day and age this seems to be more of a rarity.


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## WooHooMan (Jan 12, 2017)

Logos&Eidos said:


> The Hero's Journey is about growing up...so what happens afterwards? What's the story about navigating the world of power and adult responsibility, what happens after the evil Overlord has been beaten?



My perspective is that there are a handful of existential questions that people dedicate certain periods of their lives to answering.  Coming-of-age mostly deals with the questions of "who am I?  Who can I be?  Can I make it in the world?".  Adulthood is probably more "can I make my life count?  What is most important in my life?" and probably deals more with work and family than the peer/idol relationships of a coming-of-age story.
Old people would probably have questions along the line of "what have I accomplished?" and "what do I still need to accomplish?"
Does that make sense?



Logos&Eidos said:


> Have the steps of a Post Hero's Journey ever been mapped out?



I actually took a class on Campbell-style storytelling and my instructor told me that after the hero's journey, there's another hero's journey.  Life is just a series of quests.  After the evil overlord is beaten, the hero starts another quest.  It's just that the stakes may not be as high or the obstacles may not be as exciting.

Star Wars (and Dune) worked with this neat idea that the cycle of hero's journeys are continued by the later generations.  That seems pretty logical.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 12, 2017)

Huh. 

So I was looking over this thread, which I hadn't thought about replying to yet, and I realized that the graphic novel I'm planning kind of is a post-hero's journey story. 

I'll give some background. It's a superhero story, that takes place after the Big Bad has been defeated. The heroes of the tale are finished with their journeys and now are attempting to assimilate with society and adjust to normal life. Except none of them can hold jobs and/or keep getting kicked out of their apartments for various reasons like power-related mishaps, or non-human mutant traits freaking out the customers, or being an alien who doesn't understand human society...so, three years after the Big Bad has been defeated, the group is reunited, living together, and mooching off the (former) millionaire kid whose powers come from his inventions. 

It's kind of like a sitcom...but it has a darker and more poignant side as they find out that they didn't really know each other at all. Lots of revelations about sexuality and troubled pasts and mental illnesses. And they start to grow both together and apart as they try to fully move on from being super heroes and figure out where they want their lives to head from there. 

In the end, they're growing apart and starting to blend into society and leave behind their old identities when they're shaken by the sudden suicide of one of the members of the team. Then, when they're at their most broken, a new villain (who's been gathering power behind the scenes) rises and they are forced to reunite and fight him. 

Thoughts on how this fits in with what y'all have been discussing?


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## ThinkerX (Jan 12, 2017)

This used to bug me quite a bit, especially with the fantasy type epics.  Ok, so the MC and his companions spend three books defeating the 'dark overlord,' growing in personal and political power along the way.  Then they win.  The dark overlord and his empire are no more, subsumed into that of the MC and company.  

What then?  

At that point, in the more superficial sense, MC and company are among the most powerful characters around.  No serious competition. Options for continuing came down to some variant of:

1 - a 'clean-up' story, where the MC's go after the remaining top flunkies of the dark overlord - a bit like the 'scouring of the Shire' in 'Lord of the Rings.'  

2 - the world is a big place after all - most fantasy 'worlds' are actually rather small portions of worlds, and what was portrayed as the overwhelming menace is just one foe or potential foe among many in the larger world. Feist took this route in his 'Riftwar' saga. 

3 - life goes on.  The MC becomes a mentor to the 'next generation' of heroes, or becomes embroiled in some personal project or other.  This happened with Obi-Wan in the 'Star Wars' series.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Jan 14, 2017)

Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series explored the 'what now?' scenario.


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## glutton (Jan 14, 2017)

My current WIP is actually kind of an "after story". At the very beginning the MC is shown killing the leader of the invading army and the mountain sized monster god he revives. When she comes back from the dead after 3 years, she reunites with her lover and son and tries to fix the problems between the allied "good guy" countries in her absence, only to learn her continent which floats in the sky is at risk of falling soon and go searching for a way to prevent that. Meanwhile an anti-magic user faction seeks to free the continent from her and her family's grasp (she's the princess of the nation that leads the alliance).


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## Ireth (Jan 14, 2017)

I have a long-running set of RPs that basically runs on the rule "the world will always need saving". Every time the protagonists defeats the current Big Bad, something else inevitably pops up to make their lives miserable again. Actual peace is a rare and coveted thing.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Jan 14, 2017)

My stories never have villains, and the characters never 'save' the world. They just do what they can when they can.


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## Heliotrope (Jan 15, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> My stories never have villains, and the characters never 'save' the world. They just do what they can when they can.



So what, typically do you use for conflict/stakes?


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Jan 15, 2017)

In the first book, the main conflict involves the fact that the main character is dead, and has amnesia for awhile before she remembers how she died, and then reincarnates onto a newly formed planet [many other things happen]. In the second book, a dark force known as the Korion Maiden is supposedly breaking free from an enchanted sleep, and many believe that she will destroy everything if awakened.


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## Heliotrope (Jan 15, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> In the second book, a dark force known as the Korion Maiden is supposedly breaking free from an enchanted sleep, and many believe that she will destroy everything if awakened.



So.... wouldn't that be the 'villian' and stopping her would essentially be 'saving the world'?


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Jan 15, 2017)

^No, she is no more of a villain than the other characters. The 'heroes' don't stop her; they fail, and learn that she is an integral part of their lives.


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## Heliotrope (Jan 15, 2017)

So the same as Frozen. Still a "villian" to keep the plot moving forward. Still "end of the world" stakes to keep the reader invested. Twist at the end.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Jan 15, 2017)

^Well...okay, then.


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## Logos&Eidos (Jan 17, 2017)

glutton said:


> My current WIP is actually kind of an "after story". At the very beginning the MC is shown killing the leader of the invading army and the mountain sized monster god he revives. When she comes back from the dead after 3 years, she reunites with her lover and son and tries to fix the problems between the allied "good guy" countries in her absence, only to learn her continent which floats in the sky is at risk of falling soon and go searching for a way to prevent that. Meanwhile an anti-magic user faction seeks to free the continent from her and her family's grasp (she's the princess of the nation that leads the alliance).



@ glutton 
When can I play that Jrpg?


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## Logos&Eidos (Jan 17, 2017)

WooHooMan said:


> My perspective is that there are a handful of existential questions that people dedicate certain periods of their lives to answering.  Coming-of-age mostly deals with the questions of "who am I?  Who can I be?  Can I make it in the world?".  Adulthood is probably more "can I make my life count?  What is most important in my life?" and probably deals more with work and family than the peer/idol relationships of a coming-of-age story.
> Old people would probably have questions along the line of "what have I accomplished?" and "what do I still need to accomplish?"
> Does that make sense?
> 
> ...



@ WooHooMan
Did your teacher happen to name that second quest? or present I write up or break down of the steps? 




DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Huh.
> 
> So I was looking over this thread, which I hadn't thought about replying to yet, and I realized that the graphic novel I'm planning kind of is a post-hero's journey story.
> 
> ...



It's definitely a form of post Hero's Journey.
The one I'm looking for might be a little different or it might not.
I've been calling it the Apotheosis Journey, the naming was inspired by either a post in this thread or my other recent one.

Your story seems like it's about the last hurrah, one final glorious battle before it's time to move on.
 While I don't know the middle steps in the Apotheosis Journey, I know that it ends with a literal or figurative separation from the hero's old life,  a symbolic apotheosis/death.   




ThinkerX said:


> This used to bug me quite a bit, especially with the fantasy type epics.  Ok, so the MC and his companions spend three books defeating the 'dark overlord,' growing in personal and political power along the way.  Then they win.  The dark overlord and his empire are no more, subsumed into that of the MC and company.
> 
> What then?
> 
> ...




@ ThinkerX

Your 3. is the closest to what exactly I'm looking.
A  Hero who has attained and is still alive or able to enter act with the material world post ascension is most likely playing a mentor role. What I'm looking for is that path to ascension/enlightenment story-line; any other possibilities are also welcome.


The post Hero/Heroine's Journey or the Journey to enlightenment/ascension/apotheosis.  

After talking to some people and doing a little thinking I can see it. 

The Last two Matrix Films.

Kung Fu Panda 2.

Iron Man 2&3.

The Second half of the anime series Tegena Topa Gurren Lagan

The last two books in the Mistborn series.

They all share certain similar plot points and story beats. While similar to the Campbellian Hero's Journey, the emotional energy is different.


With all these different writers using the same template for the same exact purpose. Somebody else must have noticed this pattern and named it.

I've even started trying to break it down into a series of follow able steps. 

The first two may happen either consecutively or concurrently.

Portends of Doom!: A threat to the Hero's status qou is foreshadowed. 

Flush with power/Secure in victory: The Hero is shown to be at home in their element. Their power is at it's peak 


The intervening steps are a mystery to me, however the ending is clear - the Hero must undergo a permanent separation from what they considered normal. Maybe the Hero dies, maybe they let go of some major emotional baggage,maybe the get a new job or move to a new place, maybe they attain apotheosis and become a literal god. The point is at the end the hero permanently cuts ties with what they were before.

I might just be chasing my tale but, this might just be the Hero's Journey all over again.Even it is knowing how to do the same thing twice will be useful.


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## glutton (Jan 17, 2017)

Logos&Eidos said:


> @ glutton
> When can I play that Jrpg?



The heroine fights a mecha in it too.


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## Logos&Eidos (Jan 19, 2017)

glutton said:


> The heroine fights a mecha in it too.



@ glutton Which of your books has or will have the mecha?

Have you come a cross a or several plot structure layout for sequels in your browses of the internet?
It might look something like what is depicted here.


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## glutton (Jan 19, 2017)

Logos&Eidos said:


> @ glutton Which of your books has or will have the mecha?



The title of the book has not been decided yet although some of my earlier books have magical mechas too (Hammer Out A Future where the heroines beats some up with her melee weapon and its sequel Hammer Out A Path where her friend pilots one to aid in the defense of their city). XD


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## SergeiMeranov (Jan 23, 2017)

I guess I'm late to this party, so I'm not sure if this has been entirely addressed.  I'm also not sure if the original post was looking for examples of the "post-victory" story or reasons as to why they don't exist.

I think for the former they're a little thin, but some good examples have been noted.  I haven't read the thread in its entirety, but one that springs to mind for me is a video game series called "Overlord" where you play as a villain resurrected by his minions to go confront the heroes that brought you down.  While you do that, you discover that many of them succumbed to their own version of corruption.  That being said, beyond epilogues there isn't a whole lot of "post-victory" story telling, which I think is explained by my next point.

The latter issue, if it's what the OP was asking, is explained by the simple storytelling maxim that stories are centered on conflict.  No reader really wants to sit around and listen to how everything is going well.  There needs to be some element of conflict and so to the extent that stories exist after the hero has triumphed they usually just use that setting the "post-victory" setting to tell a new conflict.  Star Wars, as was previously mentioned, is a good example of that.  Luke blows up the Death Star but the Empire still exists, so it was the first of what turned out to be kind of three journeys for Luke.  There's also the credible argument that episodes 1-6 all serve as the story/journey of Anakin Skywalker fulfilling his destiny to bring balance to the Force.  Again though, once we reach a lack of conflict in Episode 6 where the Empire is ostensibly toppled there really isn't a reason to tell another story unless a new conflict happens.  Any wrapping up and "what happens now" questions would be best handled in an epilogue.  This article details the purposes of epilogue and a few potential uses.

I guess that's the only commentary I have.  No one tells the tale of what happens after the victory parade because it simply isn't interesting beyond a recitation of facts that shouldn't be much longer than a paragraph.


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## Futhark (Jan 24, 2017)

I don’t think there is a format for what your looking for.  Could it be the stages your character is in is more applicable?  For instance, Erikson’s Psychosocial Stages says that middle adulthood is about generativity versus stagnation.  This means giving to the next generation or, failing that, a feeling of an absence of meaningful accomplishment.  Old age is integrity versus despair.  Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs is Physiological needs (survival), safety and security, social needs, esteem, and lastly self-actualisation.

I also have a list that starts with Parents and Children, and ends with The Final Journey.  Some that might be pertinent are; The Quest for Meaning - compromise of ideals; Passion and Rejection – temptation; The Eternal Triangle – commitment versus freedom; Responsibility – power and integrity, after the goal, wisdom; and the Spiritual Quest.


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## Logos&Eidos (Jan 30, 2017)

SergeiMeranov said:


> I guess I'm late to this party, so I'm not sure if this has been entirely addressed.  I'm also not sure if the original post was looking for examples of the "post-victory" story or reasons as to why they don't exist.
> 
> I think for the former they're a little thin, but some good examples have been noted.  I haven't read the thread in its entirety, but one that springs to mind for me is a video game series called "Overlord" where you play as a villain resurrected by his minions to go confront the heroes that brought you down.  While you do that, you discover that many of them succumbed to their own version of corruption.  That being said, beyond epilogues there isn't a whole lot of "post-victory" story telling, which I think is explained by my next point.
> 
> ...





@ SergeiMeranov

There is nothing wrong with being late to the party.
What I'm looking for is a write up on the plot-points/story-structure of the Post Hero's Journey. 
I know that the story-structure exists because I can see being used as the frame work for sequels to stories where the Hero has at least partially come into their own by the end of the first episode/film/series.

The media that I listed as examples of the Post Hero's Journey, are all After the End stories. The Protagonist completed the Journey from ordinary person to hero in the first installment, moving from a figurative child to figurative adult. In the subsequent  installments the hero is called upon to face another crises, but the emotional energy at each of the steps of this part of the journey is different. There is an air of desperation and melancholy around the second journey, a journey that is about the transition from adult to wizened elder and or death.


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## Logos&Eidos (Jan 30, 2017)

@ Futhark 

I'm beginning to think that your right.
What I need is, a layout of the plot points and common elements of sequels.

Failing that...
A write up of the plot points,themes and character for at least two(ideally all) of the media that I've listed as examples of a post Hero's Journey.


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## Peat (Jan 30, 2017)

Late to the party and possibly therefore giving an example that's been made, but the Tamuli by David Eddings is a pretty spot on example of a hero going on a second adventure that leads to enlightenment of a sort (trying to be vague because spoilers).


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## Helen (Jan 31, 2017)

Logos&Eidos said:


> "Humans write to figure out how things are." - Varric Tethras, Dragon Age Inquistion. Party banter.
> 
> 
> Recently I bought a copy of "The Anatomy of Story: 22 Steps to Becoming a Master Storyteller", I haven't finished it do to my reading backlog, I'm slow to finish none fiction. I'm glad that I bought it because something in those early pages blew my mind. The fact that so many stories are tales of maturation, even stories that aren't obvious coming of age stories.
> ...



It's a cycle. It repeats.

Thor / Zeus rise to the top, they become Gods. That's one cycle.

Then the Gods develop imperfections and the cycle repeats. Or they become mentors helping others learn the lessons.

It comes back down to theme and the message you want to communicate.

The maturation is symbolic clothing; maturity is demonstrated as the lessons are learned; two arcs that run side by side.


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## Logos&Eidos (Jan 31, 2017)

Helen said:


> It's a cycle. It repeats.
> 
> Thor / Zeus rise to the top, they become Gods. That's one cycle.
> 
> ...



@  Helen
What I need is, a layout of the plot points and common elements of sequels.

and or...

A write up of the plot points,themes and character for at least two(ideally all) of the media that I've listed as examples of a post Hero's Journey. 

A link to an such article,essay, would be very helpful.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Jan 31, 2017)

I still think reading up on flat character arcs might help you with this. One place to start is on K.M. Weiland's site, right here: How to Write a Flat Character Arc, Pt. 1: The First Act - Helping Writers Become Authors

She has a series of posts about flat character arcs, covering the three act structure and the plot points for a flat arc.


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## Logos&Eidos (Feb 6, 2017)

@  Michael K. Eidson
I actually have the book.
It's the next on my stack of books on writing to read.


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## Annoyingkid (Feb 13, 2017)

What happens next? My fantasy MC vs a demigod bandit chief with a gatling gun.

The rest writes itself.


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