# Secret guild?  Like the other one?



## Aidan of the tavern (May 27, 2012)

I'm currently working on the future plot arc for my story, and one of the plans I am tempted to use involves the protagonist being taken in by a secret organization.  Then it occured to me that secret guilds and organizations crop up quite a bit in fantasy.  So my question is simple:  Do you consider secret guilds to be becoming too cliched, or are they still a intriguing tool?


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## Queshire (May 27, 2012)

Hmm..... They're a trope certainly, but I don't think it is cliche quite yet. I would certainly suggest treating it like a guild and not a secret organization, so no face concealing robes or secret meetings in dark caverns. Basically, if you don't want it thought of as cliche, then work to make sure it ISN'T cliche! Twist it, warp it, build on the expectations people have when it comes to secret guilds and then crack it to rubble!


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## Chilari (May 27, 2012)

There is no secret guild on Mythic Scribes. Any rumours you have heard that there are, are unsubstantiated and false. Carry on.

Oh you mean in stories. I think as long as there are no secret password exchanges along the lines of "Does the eagle fly at midnight?" "He does not, for in the dark the eagle cannot see, but the silent owl watches over his dominion," or secret signs hidden in the decorative plasterwork or on the spines of books, you're fine.

I think what a secretive group needs is a common goal. That can be the betterment of mankind, their own mutual profit, uncovering a political opponent's corruption, framing a political opponent for corruption, or whathaveyou. As long as it has a common goal and a reason for whatever level of secrecy they utilise (eg if the corrupt government/normal taxpayers/commercial rivals found out they'd be killed/imprisoned/have eggs thrown at them) then you're fine. Measures to protect that secrecy are fine too as long as they're logical, internally consistent, reflect the group's access to funding, and of an appropriate level for the required secrecy/level of paranoia experienced by the members of the group.


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## Devor (May 27, 2012)

In the real world, secret guilds aren't usually so secret.  There's always an ex member who's posted their secrets, or a sleuth who's spied on them.  It's not uncommon for people who are paying attention to have a reasonable impression of who is or isn't a member and even a layout of their headquarters.

So maybe you could take that possibility and use it to give to your secret society a little more depth, instantly becoming something different all together.


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## Queshire (May 27, 2012)

Heh, how about a secret guild masquerading as a not so secret guild? >: ] I'd love a Milkman Conspiracy. Milkman Conspiracy - Television Tropes & Idioms


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## Zephon (May 27, 2012)

Secret societies should never become cliche, because they're too real to ignore. I'm not talking about the "dark brotherhood" types, but just groups of people that through birth or effort have a tremendous amount of power over other people, and in the interest of their own ambitions, or the stability of the world, they cannot reveal how or why they're so powerful. 

I say go for it. As stated before if you're still worried about writing a cliche than read other books with similar themes, and do something different or give it your own twist.


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## Elder the Dwarf (May 27, 2012)

Chilari said:


> There is no secret guild on Mythic Scribes. Any rumours you have heard that there are, are unsubstantiated and false. Carry on.



I know nothing.

I don't think they're too cliche in fantasy stories.  In fantasy video games, however... that's another story.  Its tough for me to remember playing a fantasy video game not named final fantasy that lacked a secret organization.  Just make sure it makes sense in your world.  Don't throw one in just to throw one in.  Define a specific reason for them being created and staying in existence.  And try to avoid a cult.


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## ThinkerX (May 27, 2012)

As long as there is a reason for their secrecy, no problem.

And they need not even have sinister purpose.

Best real world example would be the Freemasons.  They operated in secret, yet put forth the conditions which allowed modern science to get underway.  They also literally changed the world for the better.


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## Ailith (May 27, 2012)

Devor said:


> In the real world, secret guilds aren't usually so secret.  There's always an ex member who's posted their secrets, or a sleuth who's spied on them.


But we can't really know, can we? Of course the ones we know about aren't secret anymore, but you can't really say that there aren't secret guilds at all because nobody would know... you know, because of the "secret" part  

Even if there are any (or many), I like to imagine that they're out there, because it's just plain cool. And Aidan, you should totally use one in your story.


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## T.Allen.Smith (May 27, 2012)

There's always the secret society within the society as well. From real life examples, the Freemasons mentioned earlier, were always accused of having a separate society within the larger group comprised of the select few. 

The idea being to hide in plain sight. I think that's always intriguing.


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## Caged Maiden (May 27, 2012)

I sincerely hope not, because it's a major plot line in my WIP.  Best wishes Aidan,  I hope you find the happy balance that will make your secret guild loads of fun and wholly unique to your story.


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## Hans (May 28, 2012)

Devor said:


> In the real world, secret guilds aren't usually so secret.  There's always an ex member who's posted their secrets, or a sleuth who's spied on them.


Always?
Rome and ancient Greece had lots of mystery cults which were completely lost after the advent of Christianity. Because, you know, what makes a mystery cult is that they keep their mystery a secret.
There were also well known mystery cults like the Dionysia or Eleusis. But still the mystery about these was never spilled.

So to the original question, secret guilds are perfect available for use. Just put some thought into it why they are secret and what their goals are. And what kind of secret they have. Might be religious or political or anything else.


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## The Dark One (May 28, 2012)

If secret societies are no longer cool, then I'm screwed. My recently published book is all about those who are secretly pulling the strings. In fact it's a parody of the old paranoid belief that there really are such illuminati type organisations (with real as opposed to claimed powers), but the book is by no means just a comedy.

While people continue to intuit that there are things going on that they do not understand, then secret societies will continue to be cool.


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## Devor (May 28, 2012)

Hans said:


> Always?
> Rome and ancient Greece had lots of mystery cults which were completely lost after the advent of Christianity. Because, you know, what makes a mystery cult is that they keep their mystery a secret.
> There were also well known mystery cults like the Dionysia or Eleusis. But still the mystery about these was never spilled.



I think I'm going to stick with there always being an ex-member who spoils those secrets to someone, somewhere, but maybe not to any great effect if those secrets are never circulated or preserved.

But I was just trying to give an idea of how the trope could be used in a more original manner because it has become cliche - that is, it is overused to the point where mentioning a secret society brings to mind several poor or mediocre examples of its use elsewhere.  I didn't actually try to say it was unbelievable.


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## Aidan of the tavern (May 28, 2012)

Thanks guys, its great having you around :grouphug:.

I was thinking maybe of a martial guild that broke away long ago from the institutional military, and are now independant.  They wouldn't be secret in the sense that no one has heard of them, but they would probably be hidden to avoid political diplomats trying to bring them back and what-not.


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## Chilari (May 28, 2012)

That sounds a bit like Mithraism. Sorta. Mithraism was a religious cult which did tend to remain fairly secret. Quite a lot of worshippers were soldiers. We've found a lot of their temples, which were generally underground. They were all over the empire. There were elements of mystery to them, but everyone knew they existed, just didn't know their secret rituals and stuff.


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## ScipioSmith (May 28, 2012)

Chilari said:


> Oh you mean in stories. I think as long as there are no secret password exchanges along the lines of "Does the eagle fly at midnight?" "He does not, for in the dark the eagle cannot see, but the silent owl watches over his dominion," or secret signs hidden in the decorative plasterwork or on the spines of books, you're fine.



I think Mithraists are a good example of secret passwords etc working actually. If you've read Bernard Cornwell's Arthur novels (and if you haven't, do so) there's a great scene where Lancelot is taking the pee out of protagonist Derfel, who says "Thrity times goes the black bull" or something like that, and when Lancelot goes WTF Derfel knows that he is not a Mithraist, and proceeds to beat the stuffing out of him. 

Yes, it is easy to parody things like that, like in Guards, Guards; but when done appropriately awesomely they're as viable as anything else.


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## R.S.Robertson (Jun 1, 2012)

I like secret societies!  

Heck, both of my current WIPs have them to one extent or another.  

In my epic it's more of a loose affiliation than a society and it's only secret because the "members" are considered enemies of the king (which they are), but they don't have meetings or anything.  The "members" are called facilitators and, for a price (which is just as often some secret information as it is money), they can get you whatever you need whether it's getting from one place to another, getting into a place, a bit of intelligence or a weapon of some kind.

 In my (projected) Mrs. Smith series, the secret society is something akin to a "Dark Masons" and is really, really secret despite being behind most of the bad stuff going on in Aurora, Arizona... but it's still pretty cliche and I did that completely on purpose because quite a bit of Mrs. Smith uses purposeful cliches right next to the reverse of a cliche.


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