# [Reading Group] February 2014: Prince of Thorns Discussion



## Philip Overby

So our February 2014 book is going to be _Prince of Thorns_ by Mark Lawrence. 








Please borrow or purchase the book in your preferred format and begin reading it. We'll start discussion on February 1st, 2014. The book has 49 chapters, so we can break down the discussion periods as such:

*Week 1 (Feb. 1st-8th): Chapters 1-12 
Week 2 (Feb. 9th-15th): Chapters 13-24
Week 3: (Feb. 16th-22nd): Chapters 25-37
Week 4: (Feb. 23rd-28th): Chapters 38-49
*
I own this book and have already read some of it. It's not a dense read so it should be no problem to get through it fairly quickly for fast readers. However, let's keep the chapter discussions to the designated weeks for slower readers. If you do post anything that is "reading ahead," try to post spoiler tags for those of us who may not be at the same point. 

I'll also mention that this book has some sensitive topics in it as sort of a disclaimer. 

You can get the book here or any other preferred place:

Amazon.com: Prince of Thorns (The Broken Empire) eBook: Mark Lawrence: Kindle Store

Looking forward to this!


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## Philip Overby

So can everyone give just a confirmation that you're participating in the February discussion and are borrowing/buying _Prince of Thorns_?


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## T.Allen.Smith

I'm joining the group.   

Sounds great!

EDIT: Book purchased


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## Ankari

I've bought it already. I'm in.


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## Philip Overby

Cool deal! So we have at least four confirmed members (I'm assuming some others will come along before February.) 

If you haven't posted anything yet, you can also nominate books for March here. Getting started early on nominations will give us a larger pool to choose from I hope. Then probably around the beginning of February we'll vote so we can get our March book lined up.

I was actually hoping GeekDavid would come back and run this whole deal, but since he hasn't shown back up, I guess I'll organize things going forward.


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## BWFoster78

Phil,

My current plan is to "audit" this group.  From the description of the group, I'm a little unclear as to what the discussions are going to be like.

Is this a "book club" type discussion?  If so, not really my thing.

OR

Is this authors who analytically read the book and discuss what worked and what didn't?  If so, I find that concept really cool.

Anyway, I own a copy of the book, though I do need to spend some time in my garage locating the right box.  My plan was to read it and then tune into the thread.  If it turns out to be the first option, I was going to just skip out.  If the latter, I was going to participate.

Thanks.

Brian


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## Ankari

BWFoster78 said:


> Phil,
> 
> Is this a "book club" type discussion?  If so, not really my thing.
> 
> OR
> 
> *Is this authors who analytically read the book and discuss what worked and what didn't?  If so, I find that concept really cool.*
> 
> Anyway, I own a copy of the book, though I do need to spend some time in my garage locating the right box.  My plan was to read it and then tune into the thread.  If it turns out to be the first option, I was going to just skip out.  If the latter, I was going to participate.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Brian



I think this is unescapable. We are all writers, and all seeking to improve our craft. It would be interesting to see the different responses on a given item of discussion. If three people said something works, and two didn't, I'd like to dig deeper into the disparity, try to get to the kernel of the problem.

Also, this is a forum. It gives us more time to think of our responses than a book club meeting in person. I expect some interesting topics and debates.


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## Caged Maiden

I ordered the book the same day it was selected, but I might have to catch up, depending on when my order arrives.  Stoopid super saver shipping.


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## ACSmyth

I didn't reply to the selection thread, since I've got so many books waiting TBR I didn't want another one to add to them. I'm really not a grimdark fan, so this may not be entirely my cup of tea, but I picked this up for 99p on Kindle a while back, so I'll give it a shot.


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## Philip Overby

BWFoster78 said:


> Phil,
> 
> My current plan is to "audit" this group.  From the description of the group, I'm a little unclear as to what the discussions are going to be like.
> 
> Is this a "book club" type discussion?  If so, not really my thing.
> 
> OR
> 
> Is this authors who analytically read the book and discuss what worked and what didn't?  If so, I find that concept really cool.
> 
> Anyway, I own a copy of the book, though I do need to spend some time in my garage locating the right box.  My plan was to read it and then tune into the thread.  If it turns out to be the first option, I was going to just skip out.  If the latter, I was going to participate.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Brian



As this wasn't originally my idea, I just kind of inherited it, I'm not really sure how the discussions are going to go. I'd like people to discuss the books however they like, really. I'm not imposing any rules for that very reason (besides when to discuss certain chapters). I find that it's hard to regulate something like this, so if some people want to read it analytically and see what they can glean from it as writers, then great. If others want to read it and discuss its sheer entertainment value, then that's great, too. I would hope this group would be open to all perspectives.

I also welcome any member to jump in when they have a point to make. Sometimes when reading a book, I may not have any specific points I want to discuss, so I lie in wait until the time comes.

One thing to note is this is quite a controversial book. There might be those that don't want to read it after the first couple of chapters, I don't know. Lawrence himself stands by his decisions and makes a lot of interesting comments on his blog. It might be worth looking at some of his comments as we read as well because it may give more points of discussion.


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## Ankari

Phil the Drill said:


> One thing to note is this is quite a controversial book. There might be those that don't want to read it after the first couple of chapters, I don't know. Lawrence himself stands by his decisions and makes a lot of interesting comments on his blog. It might be worth looking at some of his comments as we read as well because it may give more points of discussion.



That's a fantastic idea.


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## SM-Dreamer

This sounds like fun, and with a book I keep eyeing at the bookstore, too. A pity my library doesn't seem to have it, but I'm sure I'll get a hold of a copy soon. I'm in.


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## Gryphos

Count me in; I have it ordered and waiting to be read.


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## Philip Overby

Good deal. More folks! Don't forget to nominate more books for March. We only have four nominations so far.

I'm actually re-reading the book from the beginning since I was on Chapter 14 or so. It's not a difficult read in my opinion, but I do suspect some people may drop out based on the content. It's one of the darker fantasy books I've read so far.


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## T.Allen.Smith

This book was a pretty easy read. I finished it last night.

As an FYI, I will be out of town on business during the first scheduled discussion dates for chapters 1-12. I'll hop onto the discussion as time permits, but they keep us pretty busy.


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## Steerpike

I'm 8 chapters in or so. It's a quick read. So far, I'm a bit underwhelmed. The content doesn't bother me - I've read plenty of horror novels that make anything you find in a grim fantasy book seem tame. I'm eager to get moving on the discussion, but we have about a month left!


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## Philip Overby

I'm re-reading at the moment as well and I'm up to Chapter 4. I would say the content doesn't bother me either, but I've heard a lot of people stop reading after the first chapter for...obvious reasons. I've heard this is the kind of book you have to stick with. The series has actually gotten tons of praise all over the place, so I'm willing to give it a shot and see how everything pans out.


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## Ankari

I'm with Steer. I don't see anything unusual about this book. Nothing. It's definitely an easy read. I'm halfway through.


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## Philip Overby

I have a feeling this will be an interesting discussion nonetheless because we can talk about our expectations vs. what the book actually was for us. Since this book was voted on by most of the group members, I assume it's because people had high expectations for it. I've enjoyed what I've read so far and that has a lot to do with it being an easy read. I find some fantasy I have to really slough through, but I'm not having that trouble here.


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## SM-Dreamer

I read the reviews and have seen what the controversies are related to this book; they don't bother me, so I don't think that I will have a problem reading this.

I was planning on buying it, but then I'd mentioned to my librarian that I was searching for it. She got it pulled from another library out of the county, so I got it now. I love it when people leave notes or papers in the books; I founda joke in this one, lol.


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## Steerpike

OK, I am on chapter 25. I feel like the book just got pretty interesting in the last couple of chapters or so. Now I want to see where it is going.


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## Philip Overby

That's good to hear. I actually quite like the stripped down writing style so I'm interested to see how things turn out.


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## Philip Overby

Only a few more days before discussions start. So I'm going to posit a couple of "starter" questions to get things really right off the bat.

1. What is your feeling about the novel so far? (If you've read the whole thing, you can give your SPOILER free overview. If you're only read the required Chapter 1-12 for the first week, then you can give initial thoughts.)

2. What is your opinion of Jorg based on the first block of chapters (1-12). 

3. Does the writing style appeal to you?

4. How do you feel about the more controversial aspects? Did they turn you off on the novel early on or did they have no effect on your reading?

These are just some questions to get us started. We don't have to discuss these, but they can be something to jump start the discussion in any case.


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## BWFoster78

Phil,

May I suggest some questions? (I'll assume the answer is, "Yes."  )

5. Did the writing draw you into the story?  If so, what was it about the writing that drew you in?  If not, what about the writing kept you at a distance?

6. Did you respond emotionally to any part of the first block?  If so, which part and why?

7. Was there any part of the first block that dragged?  If so, which?


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## Steerpike

I finished it. By the end I quite liked it. For the first 20 or more chapters, I could have set it aside at any point and gone on to something else.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Steerpike said:


> I finished it. By the end I quite liked it. For the first 20 or more chapters, I could have set it aside at any point and gone on to something else.


Strange... You and I had complete opposite reactions.


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## Steerpike

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Strange... You and I had complete opposite reactions.



Interesting. I look forward to the discussion on the book, just to see how everyone felt about it.


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## Ankari

Steerpike said:


> I finished it. By the end I quite liked it. For the first 20 or more chapters, I could have set it aside at any point and gone on to something else.



I finished it last night, and I felt the same. By the end I wanted more. I'm buying the rest of the series.


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## BWFoster78

I think I'm more in line with T.Allen.  The writing kept me turning the pages, but, when I put down the book, I discovered that I really couldn't care less about the character.


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## Steerpike

I don't have to care about the characters, but they do have to be interesting. In Monument, which is a good book, I not only didn't care about the viewpoint character Ballas, I wanted him to die.


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## BWFoster78

Steerpike said:


> I don't have to care about the characters, but they do have to be interesting. In Monument, which is a good book, I not only didn't care about the viewpoint character Ballas, I wanted him to die.



I meant "care" in terms of the opposite of apathy, not as in "like."  If you wanted the character to die, then that character at least created an impression.

Regarding Prince of Thorns, I literally don't believe it would have made a difference to me if the character achieved his greatest ambitions or died horribly.


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## Steerpike

I didn't much care if he achieved it or died trying, but I still found the book interesting and I'll read the next one.


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## Philip Overby

OK, February is almost here! Remember not everyone has read the whole book yet, so let's avoid anything that could be construed as spoilers (not that anyone has done that yet, but just keep that in mind).

For Week 1 we will discuss some overview kind of questions and Chapters 1-12. 

I'm really glad we have some divergent opinions on this one. I'm rereading it at the moment and I think I'm on Chapter 8. The previous farthest I'd gotten was Chapter 14. So it's interesting to hear that some think things pick up later and it hooked them to buying future books.

That said, I have heard a lot of praise for this series overall and people say the books get better as it goes on, always a positive sign.


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## BWFoster78

I think that, had I read this book three or four years ago, I would have definitely continued the series.  It meets one of my two criteria for enjoyment - it kept me turning the pages.  With ebooks and the ability to search through so many different options, I'd rather search for a book/series that fulfills both my first criterion and my second - that the book produces some form of emotional response.

Not trying to say that the book is "bad" in any way, just that there was nothing about it that made me care enough to continue the series.


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## Steerpike

The idea that you _have_ to have an emotional response to a book is foreign to me. It's along the lines of "all things have to be like _X_." I hope literature never reaches that state of uniformity, personally, though everyone has their own view of what they want literature to be. I do think we've been moving in the direction of greater diversity, not only in content but in style and purpose, and I expect we'll continue to do so.


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## Philip Overby

I get where you're coming from, BW. I've read several "Book 1s" as of late I picked up and enjoyed, but I don't really see me continuing the series. I can't say if _Prince of Thorns_ is that kind of book yet, but I always appreciate a page-turner in fantasy where I feel there are so many dense books that take a lot more investment to stay with. As of now, I'd say I lean toward getting other books in the series, but that's only because I like the writing style. 

Also interesting to note about Mark Lawrence's writing, he says he does minimal editing. (I was going to find the blog link, but damn, I can't find it!) Anyway, I think his sort of minimalist style allows him to have less of a job editing and therefore a faster time writing his books, therefore faster turn over, therefore happy fans! Not a bad model, in my opinion.


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## Gryphos

For me it's never really had to be about having an emotional response to the book. For me it's a lot more about whether the story itself is interesting or not.

Prince of Thorns (PoT) is case and point. I'm at chapter 14 or so and yeah, I'm not 'emotionally connected' to the characters, but I'm still intrigued by the story that surrounds them. For me that's the most important thing of any book. Good characters don't turn pages for me, interesting stories do.


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## T.Allen.Smith

My response had little to do with characters and more to do with pacing and story structure. I won't say more than that for now since I don't want to give spoilers.


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## Steerpike

Gryphos said:


> For me it's never really had to be about having an emotional response to the book. For me it's a lot more about whether the story itself is interesting or not.
> 
> Prince of Thorns (PoT) is case and point. I'm at chapter 14 or so and yeah, I'm not 'emotionally connected' to the characters, but I'm still intrigued by the story that surrounds them. For me that's the most important thing of any book. Good characters don't turn pages for me, interesting stories do.



I can go with either. If the story line is sufficiently interesting, then that can hold me by itself. Alternatively, good characters can make a mundane story line work. But everyone has a different personal preference when it comes to such issues, which is all well and good. If we all had the same preferences, literature would be boring


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## BWFoster78

Steerpike said:


> The idea that you _have_ to have an emotional response to a book is foreign to me. It's along the lines of "all things have to be like _X_." I hope literature never reaches that state of uniformity, personally, though everyone has their own view of what they want literature to be. I do think we've been moving in the direction of greater diversity, not only in content but in style and purpose, and I expect we'll continue to do so.



Did you read into my response an implication that I'm claiming that production of an emotional response is a necessary factor for anyone's enjoyment other than my own?  If so, that was not my intent.

I know what I like: character-driven page turners that make me care in some way.


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## Steerpike

BWFoster78 said:


> Did you read into my response an implication that I'm claiming that production of an emotional response is a necessary factor for anyone's enjoyment other than my own?  If so, that was not my intent.
> 
> I know what I like: character-driven page turners that make me care in some way.



No. Sorry, looking at my reply I can see how it might be read that way. I was just offering my own view on things as well. Some people want that emotional connection, others don't care as much. I like it but don't need it to enjoy a book, since not all works are meant to have them. People are right to enjoy what they enjoy for their own reasons, whatever they might be.


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## BWFoster78

Steerpike said:


> No. Sorry, looking at my reply I can see how it might be read that way. I was just offering my own view on things as well. Some people want that emotional connection, others don't care as much. I like it but don't need it to enjoy a book, since not all works are meant to have them. People are right to enjoy what they enjoy for their own reasons, whatever they might be.



Understood.

I do think that the author did a really good job of writing a book that I wanted to continue reading.  With the exception of one part that I thought dragged (to be discussed when we get to those chapters), overall I enjoyed going through the book.  It's just that, when I got to the end and thought about the book, I was like, "Meh."

I really think that a year from now if someone brings up this book to me that I'll be like, "Oh yeah, I vaguely recall reading it."

It just didn't connect with me on any kind of deep level.  I'm not sure if that "deep level connection" is the same as emotionally, but I've noticed that I remember the ones that impacted me emotionally much more (and I overall enjoy them more) than ones that didn't.


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## Philip Overby

So we can officially begin discussing Chapter 1-12 now. 

Again some discussion questions you can use (or not) to jumpstart the discussion from me and BW:

1. What is your feeling about the novel so far? (If you've read the whole thing, you can give your SPOILER free overview. If you're only read the required Chapters 1-12 for the first week, then you can give initial thoughts.)

2. What is your opinion of Jorg based on the first block of chapters (1-12).

3. Does the writing style appeal to you?

4. How do you feel about the more controversial aspects? Did they turn you off on the novel early on or did they have no effect on your reading?

5. Did the writing draw you into the story? If so, what was it about the writing that drew you in? If not, what about the writing kept you at a distance?

6. Did you respond emotionally to any part of the first block? If so, which part and why?

7. Was there any part of the first block that dragged? If so, which?


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## Philip Overby

> 1. What is your feeling about the novel so far? (If you've read the whole thing, you can give your SPOILER free overview. If you're only read the required Chapters 1-12 for the first week, then you can give initial thoughts.)



I'm up to Chapter 10 now and I zipped through like four chapters last night before going to bed. It's a quick read, probably one of the quickest fantasy reads I've ever picked up. I find myself in love with a lot of fantasy books, but I tend to go through them very slowly due to lots of description or narration. Those things are minimal here but still provide enough info to keep me immersed. I was a bit confused if this was in our world or a secondary world. I think I'm actually still confused about that. There are references to Teutonic Knights, God, and such but I wasn't clear if this is some kind of historical fantasy or what.



> 2. What is your opinion of Jorg based on the first block of chapters (1-12).



I've heard this criticism elsewhere, but I imagine Jorg to be much older than 14. He comes off as a very mature 14 which I guess makes sense because people tend to mature faster when their family is killed. That said, I find Jorg to be both ruthless and cunning with little redeemable qualities as of yet. The main reason I'm interested to see how things turn out is because Count Renar seems more ruthless. It's kind of like "to destroy a monster you have to become one" kind of deal.


> 3. Does the writing style appeal to you?



Yes, it's very fast paced and engaging for me.



> 4. How do you feel about the more controversial aspects? Did they turn you off on the novel early on or did they have no effect on your reading?



I don't like sexual violence period, but it hasn't been pervasive in the story. I don't tend to find myself offended or put off easily though, so violence of any kind doesn't make me put a book down.



> 5. Did the writing draw you into the story? If so, what was it about the writing that drew you in? If not, what about the writing kept you at a distance?



I'd say the writing drew me in simply because it was something different for me. I don't normally read fast paced fantasy and I would say it's probably my preference now. I don't think fast pace=better, but in this case the story moves quickly and the writing style allows it to move along at a brisker pace than I'm used to reading. 



> 6. Did you respond emotionally to any part of the first block? If so, which part and why?



The only part that made me "emotional" (although that's probably not the right word) was when his family was killed by Count Renar and he was stuck in the thorns. I felt angry for him and could see why he became such a bastard after that moment.



> 7. Was there any part of the first block that dragged? If so, which?



I can't think of any part that dragged, although the scene when they fight Count Renar's men was longer than most of the other scenes. I probably enjoyed that part the most though because it showed how tactical Jorg can be. I'm interested to see how this characteristic plays out later.


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## SM-Dreamer

*1. What is your feeling about the novel so far? (If you've read the whole thing, you can give your SPOILER free overview. If you're only read the required Chapters 1-12 for the first week, then you can give initial thoughts.)*I won't say that I love it, but I am invested enough to keep reading, and probably borrow more of the books to read. It's keeping me intrigued.

*2. What is your opinion of Jorg based on the first block of chapters (1-12).*That he's a twisted little bastard, but I understand where he's coming from, and so I can belief the things he does and not let it affect me. I grasp his anger, and what he's doing, and can see how the events that happened to him at such a young age warped him. I like his tactics, bullheadedness, and cunning. He knows how to lead people. He's a bit mature for his age, but I think his tutoring and experiences lend to that, so it's believable.
I don't particularily like him, though.

*3. Does the writing style appeal to you?*I'm not normally into the fast-paced, stripped down style - I like detail and description that draw me into a world - but this is working for me so far. Could be that I'm so busy at the moment that I don't have the time for a dragged out winding book; this let's me zip on through while giving me enough detail to know where I'm at and grasp the world. Though I'm confused whether it's historical or alt-earth...

*4. How do you feel about the more controversial aspects? Did they turn you off on the novel early on or did they have no effect on your reading?*I knew about them coming into the book, so they didn't shock me. There was nothing graphic written; more of an allusion to the fact. It didn't turn me off, because I can see why it's happening, it make sense for the characters involved. Plus you have a young teenage boy who's emotionally damaged - if he weren't engaging in this, I don't think it'd be believable. This isn't Robin Hood and his Merry Men or honorable companions - these are bandits, and bandits raid, rape, and kill.
*
5. Did the writing draw you into the story? If so, what was it about the writing that drew you in? If not, what about the writing kept you at a distance?*The writing didn't appeal to me with the first sentences, but I was curious, and before I knew it I was hooked. So it's the fast-paced writing that drew me, and the humorous - though dark - remarks the characters made. I think what throws me off with the writing is not knowing exactly where/when I am (again - alt-earth? or historical?)

*6. Did you respond emotionally to any part of the first block? If so, which part and why?*
Not really. The character doesn't do anything for me; the plot and the story as a whole does. This isn't a character I can empathize with - understand, yes; feel for, no, though I suppose the fact that I do want him to succeed means I do somewhat feel for him...? I think the only part that  I felt for the character was his memories of the traumatic events, and reading how his tutor tried to help him.

*7. Was there any part of the first block that dragged? If so, which? *

Not that I recall; may edit later.


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## Gryphos

*1. What is your feeling about the novel so far? (If you've read the whole thing, you can give your SPOILER free overview. If you're only read the required Chapters 1-12 for the first week, then you can give initial thoughts.)
*
I'm on chapter 14 and so far I like it a lot. The way the story is going looks to be intriguing and if it carries on going the way it is I'll definitely be inclined to buy the other two in the series. One thing I'm struggling with is whether or not this is set in our world or not. It makes reference to things like Jesus, as well as naming real people like Plato. Maybe the author has explained in a blog or something but it's just something I keep going 'huh' about.

*2. What is your opinion of Jorg based on the first block of chapters (1-12).
*
He's certainly an interesting character. Cruel, arrogant, ruthless, but also cunning. And the fact that he's only thirteen makes him all the more interesting. I can't say that I 'like' him exactly, but in a way I am routing for him against people like Renar and his father who seem to perhaps be even more unlikable.

*3. Does the writing style appeal to you?
*
It does. The simplistic and cut-back style really helps with the flow and makes the book very easy to read.

*4. How do you feel about the more controversial aspects? Did they turn you off on the novel early on or did they have no effect on your reading?
*
It didn't have any effect on me mainly because it never really gave graphic detail. It just stated that 'that stuff happened' and the violent detail was never too shocking.

*5. Did the writing draw you into the story? If so, what was it about the writing that drew you in? If not, what about the writing kept you at a distance?
*
The writing drew me and had me hooked about halfway through the first chapter. As I said, it's mainly the stripped-back style and toned down description that kept it moving fast, and thus made me more interested faster.

*6. Did you respond emotionally to any part of the first block? If so, which part and why?
*
I wouldn't say I responded emotionally to any part. And I don't really connect to any of the characters. But it is early days in the novel and maybe as I progress some characters will stand out.

*7. Was there any part of the first block that dragged? If so, which? 
*
I don't feel any part dragged and I'm very thankful for that.


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## Philip Overby

It's interesting that several people have said they didn't connect with Jorg, but still enjoyed the story because it's fast paced. I'm in that camp as well. Normally I need some kind of connection with the main character, but I guess I don't always need that. 

I finished up to Chapter 12 now. This would be a point that I think if I stopped the book, I'd be able to pick up again easily later, but maybe I wouldn't remember too many details. 

For reference about some of the controversies, here is a post from Mark Lawrence himself describing his thoughts on the content: 

Mark Lawrence: MurderÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s bad mÃ¢â‚¬â„¢kay?


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## Caged Maiden

Phil the Drill said:


> 1. What is your feeling about the novel so far?


I think the writing style reads effortlessly and the wording feels somehow really comfortable to me.  I'm confused about all the brothers, but I don't care.  When they are important as individuals, they are described in more detail, but it's hard to remember who is who, because they don't really stand out as characters.  For me... I understand why that is so, because they re something like furniture in a room, so it doesn't bother me and I don't try to remember them all and picture each one's face in my head as I read about him.



Phil the Drill said:


> 2. What is your opinion of Jorg based on the first block of chapters (1-12).


He's unique in a way that isn't a hard sell.  He feels like an antagonist, but yet... I don't really mind.  I really enjoy his driving the dead spirits away, by revealing his ugly inside.  I'm also glad he spared the priest.  Wait... we only have to be aware of spoilers if we read ahead, right?  I think the way he planned an ambush for the the soldiers was really smart and it speaks a lot to the intelligence of a person who lies... probably repeatedly to his men, and yet they follow.



Phil the Drill said:


> 3. Does the writing style appeal to you?


  I really like the style.  I think certain elements might be occasionally hmmered home, btu then I remember I'm reading the mind of a boy.



Phil the Drill said:


> 4. How do you feel about the more controversial aspects? Did they turn you off on the novel early on or did they have no effect on your reading?


  Sometimes?  I had hoped my MC head I tried to get comfortable in wasn't one to rape girls and do the actual icky jobs himself, but I was disillusioned very quickly.  It doesn't bother me, but I prefer a character who cares... about anything, to one who is so callous and cold.  But, that's exactly what this character is and it's the reason he has a journey.  I guess I'm along for the ride, though sometimes I feel I'm riding in the head cart...



Phil the Drill said:


> 5. Did the writing draw you into the story? If so, what was it about the writing that drew you in? If not, what about the writing kept you at a distance?


 I'd say it was how familiar it felt.  I feel like second person is where I like to be and I don't know why so many people hate it, but I thought it was well done here and I enjoy it.



Phil the Drill said:


> 6. Did you respond emotionally to any part of the first block? If so, which part and why?


  I genuinely hoped he wouldn't kill the priest and I really didn't want to read about him torturing the soldier with nails.  Of course... the things I imagined were worse than just nailing into his head... but that's just because I'm not sure which boundaries are off limits for the author.  Lesson learned... I'll keep that in mind as I write... do not let your reader know you will not do it... let them think you _might_.



Phil the Drill said:


> 7. Was there any part of the first block that dragged? If so, which?


Not for me.  I did find myself skimming the section where they drank beer in the grain storage, but it was only a few paragraphs.  I also skimmed where the soldiers came in to meet them in the abandoned town, about where they sprung the trap.  It wasn't boring... i just sort of felt like I'd already read enough fighting and I wanted to skip ahead to more story.

I'm really enjoying the book and looking forward to seeing more of the journey.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

> 1. What is your feeling about the novel so far? (If you've read the whole thing, you can give your SPOILER free overview. If you're only read the required Chapters 1-12 for the first week, then you can give initial thoughts.)


Okay...so spoiler free. I thought the story line was somewhat interesting. I tend to like dark stories so the intro held a lot of promise. It seemed like it was going to head in some gritty territory. I can't say I truly enjoyed the first 12 chapters but I didn't dislike it either. It was interesting enough, and easy enough to read to continue.



> 2. What is your opinion of Jorg based on the first block of chapters (1-12).


I liked the main character but that liking was largely based  on a break from the standard  "good guy" MC. The intro painted Jorg as a sociopath. I wanted to see what made him become that way or if it was nature. That being said, I felt little to no emotional connection to the character, which I generally prefer. 



> 3. Does the writing style appeal to you?


I did like the writing style. It was an easy read and had good clarity. I never wondered what the author meant. I didn't really notice the writing either. Generally, transparent writing is a plus in my book, but not always.



> 4. How do you feel about the more controversial aspects? Did they turn you off on the novel early on or did they have no effect on your reading?


Honestly, I don't consider anything too controversial. There was mention of pillaging & raping but there was no real graphic depiction. So no, these so-called controversy had zero negative effect.



> 5. Did the writing draw you into the story? If so, what was it about the writing that drew you in? If not, what about the writing kept you at a distance?


As before, the clear, easy to read style made the book fly by. I think it took me three days to read in its entirety. Considering I was so-so on attachment to plot and character, the easy reading didn't make it feel like a huge investment of time & energy. I wouldn't say that I felt the story was enhanced by the style but it did help some. It didn't feel like work.



> 6. Did you respond emotionally to any part of the first block? If so, which part and why?


Not really. I'd say the only thing that made me feel any emotion was the scene with his baby brother. Other than that, not too much. It's hard to feel emotional pity for a sociopath. However, that doesn't mean sociopathic characters aren't interesting.



> 7. Was there any part of the first block that dragged? If so, which?


I'm going to reserve comment on this part until we are through reviewing the first 2/3 or so. You'll know why then....


----------



## Philip Overby

> Honestly, I don't consider anything too controversial. There was mention of pillaging & raping but there was no real graphic depiction. So no, these so-called controversy had zero negative effect.



Of note, I think there are two mentions of rape that I know of. Mark Lawrence even criticized some reviews that referred to the book's "graphic depictions of rape" and called it "the book with all the rape." 

I think the part with the nail was pretty disturbing, but hell, I've seen the Saw movies so that didn't do a whole lot to unnerve me.

Of note, I think I spoiled a major thing that's later on in the book by reading Mark Lawrence's blog. He didn't spoil, but someone who commented did. I hate that. 

I've found that almost everyone has said that they don't connect with Jorg at all, but are interested to see what he does next. It seems the majority of us don't find emotional connection to be that important as readers. Or maybe it's just with this book?

Perhaps some new questions:

8. What makes a reader interested to follow a character they have no attachment to?

9. Does the easy to read writing style make it easier to read a story about a sociopath? Meaning if this was a denser book, would you be able to stick with this cast of characters?


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

Phil the Drill said:


> Perhaps some new questions:
> 8. What makes a reader interested to follow a character they have no attachment to?


It's hard to quantify. They can be interesting without having an emotional connection. They could simply be embroiled in some events that I find intriguing or display a slice of life that attracts my attention, like the actions and thought process of a sociopath.



Phil the Drill said:


> 9. Does the easy to read writing style make it easier to read a story about a sociopath? Meaning if this was a denser book, would you be able to stick with this cast of characters?


For me the easy reading serves to make the reading feel like less of an investment. If I can read the book in three days, what's the loss if at the end I say "meh"? 

I find sociopaths to be interesting creatures. I've done a good bit if reading about them. So, when I see a character that shows sociopathic attributes, it intrigues me. It's not necessarily the writing or the character, but the subject matter.


----------



## Steerpike

*1. What is your feeling about the novel so far? (If you've read the whole thing, you can give your SPOILER free overview. If you're only read the required Chapter 1-12 for the first week, then you can give initial thoughts.)*
Overall I like it enough to buy the next installment. Had I stopped at Chapter 12, I don't think that would be the case. I didn't dislike it, but there was nothing about it that would have compelled me to buy the next one, and it would have been even odds as to whether I'd have done so. But since this is for the book club, I went ahead and kept reading and ended being glad I did.


*2. What is your opinion of Jorg based on the first block of chapters (1-12). *


I think he's a psychopath. He's an interesting character, though not a likable one. Had he died somewhere in those first 12 chapters, I wouldn't have shed any tears over him. 

*3. Does the writing style appeal to you?*


Yes. The writing is fast-paced and lean, and Lawrence has a good "voice." I like the way the narrator relates the story, including the use of slang.

*4. How do you feel about the more controversial aspects? Did they turn you off on the novel early on or did they have no effect on your reading?*


I don't get the controversy. Most of the aspects that I have head make it controversial happen off-screen. The controversial parts of the book didn't have an impact on me one way or another. 

*5. Did the writing draw you into the story? If so, what was it about the writing that drew you in? If not, what about the writing kept you at a distance?*


The writing was interesting. I wouldn't say it necessarily drew me in over the first 12 chapters. The fact that the prose is fast helped, since I wasn't particularly sold on the book by that point.

*6. Did you respond emotionally to any part of the first block? If so, which part and why?*


No.

*7. Was there any part of the first block that dragged? If so, which?

*I didn't feel that it dragged at any point. The pace stayed pretty consistent, and I thought it was a good pace. There was no point where I was thinking "Ugh, get on with it already."


----------



## SM-Dreamer

> 8. What makes a reader interested to follow a character they have no attachment to?



That the character has something unique about them. Either they're in an interesting situation or world helps, certainly.



> 9. Does the easy to read writing style make it easier to read a story about a sociopath? Meaning if this was a denser book, would you be able to stick with this cast of characters?



I think the easy writing makes it so that I don't realize how far I am into the story before I'm invested. 

I've always been fascinated with people with psychological issues, so reading about a person who is a sociopath is intriguing, even if I don't like the character - although he's growing on me.

Like mold, but still.


----------



## Philip Overby

I'm interested in this "emotion connection" point that Brian brought up originally. I always hear writers saying they have emotional connections to their characters and therefore hope that passes on to their readers. But I find that for me, I'm not sure that's always a prerequisite for me to enjoy a story. 

I've found since getting into the 20s in the chapters, I'm finding myself slightly connecting with Jorg a bit more. Not fully mind you, but I see him changing a little as a character. 

We can discuss this more in depth starting on February 8th, when we'll start discussing the 2nd block, Chapters 13-24.


----------



## Philip Overby

*Week 2: Chapters 13-24*

OK, so we're officially on block 2 now.

Any topics of discussion anyone wants to pose?

I'll throw some out there.

1. Do you find yourself getting more in the story now or have you started to lose interest?

2. What do you think about the supporting cast? (Rike, Makin, the Nuban, etc.)

3. Do you see some semblance of "humanity" (for lack of a better word) creeping into Jorg's character? 

4. What do you think about Jorg's interactions with his father?

5. Do you feel like you know where the story is going or do you have no idea?

6. Are you finding this novel to be as grim as people made it out to be or do you find it to actually be light in places? (I'm finding more humor, although black humor, it's still humor).

Thoughts?


----------



## Gryphos

*1. Do you find yourself getting more in the story now or have you started to lose interest?*

I'm definitely getting into the story even more now, now that there's a set goal. I'm interested to see now how on earth Jorg is going to take Castle Red and what it will mean if he succeeds.

*2. What do you think about the supporting cast? (Rike, Makin, the Nuban, etc.)*

There have started to be a few standout characters for me at this point. Learning the backstory of how Jorg met the Nuban has put him right up there in the list. And Makin is also growing on me. But one person I'm very interested in is Sageous. First of all at this point you're not entirely sure what he is other than a magician with impressive power. But I love the way he basically beats Jorg every time they have a confrontation, whether its making him scared shitless in the middle of the night or making him crush his own hand, I find myself actually wanting him to make a fool out of Jorg. Not because I don't like Jorg in any way, just because it's good to see Jorg suffer and not win. Then there's Katherine. It's clear that Jorg has the hots for her but it's also clear that she wouldn't touch him with a twenty foot pole, which I do appreciate as thats probably the most plausible reaction to Jorg.

*3. Do you see some semblance of "humanity" (for lack of a better word) creeping into Jorg's character?*

I'd say so, even if it is just a bit. For example when he saw Nossar and just in general the nostalgia of his family. Also, I can see Katherine's influence somewhat humanising him. In his desperation to get on her good side, maybe Jorg will tone down his barbarism.

*4. What do you think about Jorg's interactions with his father?*

The scene in the hall is my favourite of this block of chapters because, again, it's a time when Jorg isn't in control, like the way his father completely ignores him. But it also speaks a lot about his character. You can really see that they're father and son when he laughs after Jorg kills Sir Galen. He is basically like Jorg but more powerful, which in itself is a worrying concept.

*5. Do you feel like you know where the story is going or do you have no idea?*

Beyond assuming that Jorg is probably going to succeed somehow in taking Castle Red, I honestly have no idea. And there's still a lot of the book left so I don't think Castle Red is even going to be the climax. So I'm not entirely sure what could happen after that. Maybe he goes to Renar and takes revenge on the Count.

*6. Are you finding this novel to be as grim as people made it out to be or do you find it to actually be light in places? (I'm finding more humor, although black humor, it's still humour).*

Likewise, I find myself chuckling or at least smiling at a lot of parts. When I started reading I assumed it would be straight grim stuff, but really it's not that dark at all. The only dark parts are the fact that a lot of people die and the book doesn't hold back on the details of those deaths. I've never found myself cringing at any part.


----------



## Philip Overby

Gryphos:

I think you and I have very similar views on this second block.

I loved the scene with his father. Especially Jorg, who is so often used to be listened to and feared, is totally like a piss ant to the king. Great stuff.

I'm also finding myself liking Makin and the Nuban more and more. I find the list of brothers sometimes hard to keep up with, but I think the right ones are getting focus.

Katharine is another great character that knocks Jorg down a peg. I think the novel was in need of some more difficult characters for Jorg to deal with. In the first block, he wasn't having much difficulty handling life on the road. It's interesting that when he comes home to the "safer" court, it's where he experiences the most push back.

Sageous is by far one of the most intriguing characters. I agree, he always seems to have a leg up on Jorg and I suspect that's going to come into play heavily later.

I'm also surprised with how this book has such a dark reputation. I'd say the first block is darker, but the second block has seemed lighter with more spots for humor. I guess some people just handle dark material better or don't get past the first several chapters because they have expectations of it being hard to stomach.

I'm not sure, but I don't suspect getting to Count Renar is going to happen in this book. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that's going to happen in the next one. I'll be happy either way. 

Slight spoiler? 



Spoiler: Spoiler?



I think the title of the next book _King of Thorns_ is a little spoilerish, only because I am assume that Jorg will be king by the end of the book. I don't know this for sure, but I'm just guessing.


----------



## Philip Overby

So I guess everyone either stopped reading after Week 1 or just hasn't had time to discuss Week 2. I can't really think of any other topics for discussion for Week 2, so I'll just share Mark Lawrence's blog post about his books and "grimdark" (which I'm still not really sure if this is an accepted name now or what) here:

Mark Lawrence: Dark, Darker, Darkest!


----------



## Steerpike

I'm actually done with the book already 

*1. Do you find yourself getting more in the story now or have you started to lose interest?*

I got more interested in the book somewhere in the early 20s in terms of chapters. At that point, I started piecing together the setting, and that raised my interest level. I liked it before that, but wasn't as interested as I could have been.

*2. What do you think about the supporting cast? (Rike, Makin, the Nuban, etc.)*

I like the Nuban, and I like Katherine. Makin is growing on me a bit. 

*3. Do you see some semblance of "humanity" (for lack of a better word) creeping into Jorg's character? *

Maybe. Only in his reaction to Katherine, really. And even then only a small bit.

*4. What do you think about Jorg's interactions with his father?*

I thought it was well done. The king is as much an arrogant bastard as Jorg. I think Lawrence handled the interaction between them well and made it clear the king still sees Jorg as a child.

*5. Do you feel like you know where the story is going or do you have no idea?*

Yeah, I had a pretty good idea by this point. The puzzle starts to come together.

*6. Are you finding this novel to be as grim as people made it out to be or do you find it to actually be light in places? (I'm finding more humor, although black humor, it's still humor).*

It's not even half as grim as it was made out to be, and a lot of the criticisms about content seemed a bit absurd after reading the book. I think there is a healthy dose of humor running through the whole thing.


----------



## Ankari

I finished this book, and the second. I'll buy the third after I finish a certain anthology.

Back on track.

*1. Do you find yourself getting more in the story now or have you started to lose interest?*

I finished the second book. I think Mark Lawrence loses prospective readers from the sample. From the sample, we see Jorg as a spoiled boy trying to walk in a brigand's world. There is a lesson here. Give your reader someone to relate to within the beginning of the book.

Mark Lawrence does an excellent job with Jorg. By the second book, Jorg grows. Most of us could relate to the grown up Jorg. We can think back to our youth and scold our own rash behavior, or our impatience.

*2. What do you think about the supporting cast? (Rike, Makin, the Nuban, etc.)*

Certain members of the supporting cast develop at an alarming rate. They become crucial in serving as a mirror to Jorg's psyche. I like Makin and the Nuban above all others.

Katherine. I have mixed feeling about her. She seems to only serve the forbidden fruit. She does develop down the line, but not enough shatter the perceived role for her.

*3. Do you see some semblance of "humanity" (for lack of a better word) creeping into Jorg's character?*

In this block, there is a move towards humanity. It's like the first step of a baby compared to an adult sprint. I don't like that his humanity is prodded by his loins, but I guess most 14 year olds share the same motivation.

*4. What do you think about Jorg's interactions with his father?*

It's intriguing, but predictable. Even Jorg understands the role of these magicians on the One Hundred. Why is Jorg attributing his father's actions to his father? Why is the reader supposed to? I didn't.

*5. Do you feel like you know where the story is going or do you have no idea?*

Yeah, I got it.

*6. Are you finding this novel to be as grim as people made it out to be or do you find it to actually be light in places? (I'm finding more humor, although black humor, it's still humor).*

I think Mark Lawrence is a victim of our evolving definition of "14 year old." He's writing a story that mimics the middle ages' ethics and morals. Fourteen year olds were young men. Most readers associate that age with the term "teenagers." This is where most of the "dark" is derived from. They see a boy doing what Jorge does, not a man. They see a "child soldier."

This speaks volumes of who we've become. We are now labeling 23 year old men leaving college as "kids." Kids! What the...?

That's another thread for another day.


----------



## Philip Overby

> I think Mark Lawrence is a victim of our evolving definition of "14 year old." He's writing a story that mimics the middle ages' ethics and morals. Fourteen year olds were young men. Most readers associate that age with the term "teenagers." This is where most of the "dark" is derived from. They see a boy doing what Jorge does, not a man. They see a "child soldier."
> 
> This speaks volumes of who we've become. We are now labeling 23 year old men leaving college as "kids." Kids! What the...?
> 
> That's another thread for another day.



Ankari, this is a very interesting point. I do think in today's society there is more of a protectiveness over youth that didn't exist back then. Fourteen year olds fought in wars and got married. It was pretty common. I guess sometimes my own pre-conceived notions of fourteen year olds I've met or when what I was like back then factored into my reading of the story at first. However, as I went on, I had to keep reminding myself this was a guy who matured very quickly due to the deaths of his mother and brother and spent several years on the road "growing up" as well. It's kind of strange that he seems more like a kid at court than he did on the road. I guess that reflects his own discomfort with court life.


----------



## Ankari

Phil the Drill said:


> However, as I went on, I had to keep reminding myself this was a guy who matured very quickly due to the deaths of his mother and brother and spent several years on the road "growing up" as well. It's kind of strange that he seems more like a kid at court than he did on the road. I guess that reflects his own discomfort with court life.



He wasn't forced to grow up fast, everyone is an adult by this age. You have to rid yourself of the word "teenager" when reading this series. Jorge is old enough to marry. Not because he was forced to grow up fast, but because all males become men at fourteen. (And females become women at twelve.)

He isn't a kid at court so much inexperienced. He left the castle at the age of ten, lived the life of a brigand, and returned to a hostile environment. The court scene isn't to show Jorge as still a child, it's to show Jorge as still trying to earn the respect and love of his father. I can see any man, of any age, respond the same to a father like Jorg's.


----------



## Steerpike

Ankari said:


> He wasn't forced to grow up fast, everyone is an adult by this age. You have to rid yourself of the word "teenager" when reading this series. Jorge is old enough to marry. Not because he was forced to grow up fast, but because all males become men at fourteen. (And females become women at twelve.)
> 
> He isn't a kid at court so much inexperienced. He left the castle at the age of ten, lived the life of a brigand, and returned to a hostile environment. The court scene isn't to show Jorge as still a child, it's to show Jorge as still trying to earn the respect and love of his father. I can see any man, of any age, respond the same to a father like Jorg's.



Yes, this.

How old was Temujin when he took over leadership of his tribe? 10 or 11? The tribe members abandoned him, but by 14 he had killed his half-brother and increased his standing among the tribes. Captured in raids at 15 or so (near as I can tell), married by 16 and then leading a raid to rescue his wife.

It's not that Jorg had to grow up fast. It's that _people_ grew up fast in that environment. They lived shorter lives, acquired the rights and responsibilities of adults sooner, had kids sooner, and so on.


----------



## Philip Overby

I do think however that Jorg may have maintained some of the pampered youth of a prince if he had not gone out on the road at an early age. He was 10 when he decided to head out, right? I don't know, he seemed awfully mature even in some of the flashbacks. I do think him growing up on the road influenced his attitude towards human interaction than if he would have done so at court. If he's used to being around thugs and murderers, I think him being fourteen maybe isn't really that relevant. However, he appears just like a kid when he keeps trying to talk and his father ignores him. It reminds me of the old, "Be quiet, son. Adults are talking" kind of deal.

Also, non-spoiler, I hope, but this isn't really a traditional medieval setting is it? Maybe more will come to light in the third block? I'm starting to get signs and I'm pretty sure I know what's up now.


----------



## Steerpike

Phil the Drill said:


> Also, non-spoiler, I hope, but this isn't really a traditional medieval setting is it? Maybe more will come to light in the third block? I'm starting to get signs and I'm pretty sure I know what's up now.





Spoiler: General point about Setting



Yeah, that's right. The pieces started falling into place during this block. I think you're on the right track.


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## SM-Dreamer

*1. Do you find yourself getting more in the story now or have you started to lose interest?*
The story is finally getting into the heart of things, so it's keeping me more interested, which isn't to say I wasn't in the first place, if that makes any sense at all.

*2. What do you think about the supporting cast? (Rike, Makin, the Nuban, etc.)*
I like the Nuban, liked him from the start. Rike is a source of humor (either his actions or Jorg's commentary). Makin is... ok. I think I like the old man whose name I cannot remember... can't say Jorg right? No teeth? Anyways, I also like the tutor and felt for him trying to help Jorg.

*3. Do you see some semblance of "humanity" (for lack of a better word) creeping into Jorg's character? *
I saw some humanity in him in the nightmare scene, in his interaction with Katherine and his father, and in his engagements with Sageous. 

*4. What do you think about Jorg's interactions with his father?*I think he came up against his match, and we're seeing where he got it from. I enjoyed the scene as a whole, especially the tree and how he killed whatshisname (I read the block a week or so ago; my memory for details is shoddy)

*5. Do you feel like you know where the story is going or do you have no idea?*I think I get where everything's going, and I'm definitely able to fill in the blanks so things make more sense now.

*6. Are you finding this novel to be as grim as people made it out to be or do you find it to actually be light in places? (I'm finding more humor, although black humor, it's still humor).*
I don't see how it's grim at all, to be honest. I get that it's not, y'know, light-hearted and all, but I don't get a sense of grim out of it. I like the humor in Jorg's commentary.

Maybe it's because I came to the book with the understanding that this is a different time/place and was able to suspend my understanding of '14' and carry it to what would fit in Jorg's world, but I was never shocked by how mature he was or the things that he was capable. He's a man. Sure, he still has some growing to do (mentally and physically) but he's an adult in his world. Pampered as a child, raised at court, but he suffered trauma, reacted to it, and survived living on the road; each made him who and what he is, and surprisingly, while I don't like what he does, I _understand _it (and even respect his strategy).


----------



## Ankari

SM-Dreamer said:


> Pampered as a child, raised at court,...



Actually, up to this point, readers assume Jorg is pampered. There is nothing in this book that suggests as much.

This interests me. Does everyone think he is pampered because he's a prince? Just the usage of the word has directed your mind down one path?

If so, I'm appreciating Mark Lawrence's subtle manipulations of his readers. There is a lesson to ponder.


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## SM-Dreamer

I admit that prince denotes a sense of luxury, but other things throughout the text led me to that sense.

On page 71, Jorg refers to his mother as having taken him and his brother to a noble's estate, rather than let them witness the executions; other references mention her in silk, and his brother as soft. On page 85, on the precipice of following the prisoners: "I remembered a time when I lived in the lie. I lived in a world of soft things, mutable truths, gentle touches, laughter for its own sake." continues on 86 "I saw my child's life yellow on the tree [...] How much the dens and forts in which William and I had played with such fierce belief, how foolish our toys without the intensity of an innocent imagination to animate their existence."

When he describes his mother and brother, it's with positive adjectives ("sweet William" "little William" "her perfect painted face") and I get the sense that he was loved as a child, by her at least (obviously not so much by the father, at least not overtly). 

He had run of the castle as a child ("Every prince knows the kitchens better than any other quarter of his castle. Where else can so much adventure be found? Where else is the truth spoken so plain? William and I learned a hundred times more in the kitches of the Tall Castle than from our books on Latin and strategy. We'd steal ink-handed from Lundist's study and sprint through long corridors, leaping down the stairs too many at a time, to reach the refuge of the kitchens." 124), ate in the kitchens, and the servants (at least there) seem to have positive memories of him(or at least expect something out of their little prince).

So my impression is that he had play and fun as a child, plus the tutoring for days on end, was loved by his mother, had a companion of his brother... Yes, I see him as pampered (likely more so than a child not of royalty/nobility in such a setting).


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## Ankari

I'll have to think on that.

On one hand, these are memories from his eighth or ninth year. The further back you reach into your life, the more innocent life was. Even if you lived a life peppered with unkindness. This is a fact of innocence.

I'll give you that he had better accommodations and clothing, but I don't see those as pampering, only fitting for their status.

I don't see these lines as "pampered", so much as I see him as unburdened from his later responsibilities. At the age of ten, such responsibilities start to creep up on him. He is not expected to play. His tutor is putting him through studies of war, geography, and history in an obvious preparation for eventual rulership.

As to the lines mentioning the love of his mother and brother, I can't see those as pampered sentiments. It's a natural extension of a healthy parent-child relationship.


----------



## Philip Overby

I tend to lean toward SM-Dreamer's thoughts as well. Maybe not pampered, but definitely privileged. I felt like him going from his court life to on the road had to be pretty drastic in some way. I mean, I think when the Count's men killed his mother and brother it was when they stopped their carriage or something.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

> 1. Do you find yourself getting more in the story now or have you started to lose interest?


At this point I was still somewhat interested. I wouldn't say I was engrossed but I did like the references that showed this world to be a future of our reality.  



> 2. What do you think about the supporting cast? (Rike, Makin, the Nuban, etc.)


I think these characters should've been developed more, or at least one of them. The Nuban is a potentially interesting character that we know little about, other than his limited interactions with Jorg. Since Jorg is supposed to be so intelligent, there could've been more insight on the supporting cast.  



> 3. Do you see some semblance of "humanity" (for lack of a better word) creeping into Jorg's character?


Mmmm....not really. Someone mentioned Katherine before but we don't see much of her & neither does Jorg. In fact, I found their interactions relatively meaningless other than a sexual attraction. It seems to me that the relationship established in book one will come into play in book two. To me, that's its only purpose.  



> 4. What do you think about Jorg's interactions with his father?


They're both cut from the same cloth. They're sociopaths. Here's the thing though, sociopaths are chameleons of society. They act in ways that disguise their true thinking and actions. I think it would've been better to play on that idea, Jorg acting as a returning son would be expected to act in a certain way, all the while the thoughts he and the reader share show something entirely different. There are hints of this in the book but, in my opinion, it is underdeveloped.  



> 5. Do you feel like you know where the story is going or do you have no idea?


Yes. I feel like I have a good idea where this will end up, just not the events leading to the conclusion.  



> 6. Are you finding this novel to be as grim as people made it out to be or do you find it to actually be light in places?


Not at all. I don't think it's especially grim.


----------



## Philip Overby

So I suppose we're ready to discuss block 3 now (Chapters 25-37)? I'm actually on 32, so I'm a bit behind, but I'm sure I'll catch up tonight since I'm going to do some reading before going to bed.

Some questions for discussion until then:

1. Why do you feel that the king really sent Jorg away? Is it in hopes that he will die given an impossible task? Or is it to really prove himself?

2. Do you feel like the introduction of Jane and the leucrota seemed out of left field? This definitely appears to be a low magic kind of world, but things are seeping in that don't seem normal. What are your thoughts about them?

3. How did you feel when some characters died on the way to the Great Stair? 

4. What was the significance (to you) of Jorg eating the necromancer's heart? 

OK, that's all for now. Maybe some more questions come the morning.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

> 1. Why do you feel that the king really sent Jorg away? Is it in hopes that he will die given an impossible task? Or is it to really prove himself?


It seemed pretty obvious to me that he was signing a death sentence with the order. Jorg was convinced of this immediately, but he still sees it as opportunity.  



> 2. Do you feel like the introduction of Jane and the leucrota seemed out of left field? This definitely appears to be a low magic kind of world, but things are seeping in that don't seem normal. What are your thoughts about them?


Yes, totally out of left field and my biggest complaint about the book. All of a sudden we get these monstrous creatures that were never mentioned before. The same is true with the necromancers. It's not like these beings are unknown to the surface world, especially considering their proximity to Jorg's target. To me, this felt rushed and contrived. As a reader, I felt I was being pushed speedily toward and ending when the story was ready yet.  



> 3. How did you feel when some characters died on the way to the Great Stair?


I didn't care much because I thought every supporting character was underdeveloped.   



> 4. What was the significance (to you) of Jorg eating the necromancer's heart?  OK, that's all for now. Maybe some more questions come the morning.


Again this seemed contrived. Unless I missed something, we haven't seen or heard of this activity before, so why does he do this now? Even if it was mentioned, I'd still need a damned good reason for a character's leap into cannibalism. It didn't seem like a natural thing for Jorg to do.


----------



## Philip Overby

I got the feeling we're getting some of the "old world" in these chapters. I took the leucrota to be some sort of mutated creatures, while the electronic panel ("the spirit") he attacks is the security system. I'm not entirely sure where this is going, but I'm going to go ahead and guess based on spoilerish stuff I've heard before about the book:



Spoiler: Setting Spoiler



Not sure when this is completely revealed, but this is our world only after a nuclear holocaust. So the monsters are people mutated by radiation and the magic came to life somehow from this? Still trying to completely figure it out.



I liked the inclusion of these things, but I would have liked to have seen more evidence of them existing before they showed up late in the novel.


----------



## Caged Maiden

Philip Overby said:


> 1. Do you find yourself getting more in the story now or have you started to lose interest?



I am pretty into the story.  I'm certainly not bored by it.  The only detail I'm not really loving is that it's a future of our world.  The names were confusing before, but now I'm kinda wishing it was just confusing names, not some sort of alternate future?  It leaves me asking loads of questions.. like how nothing exists to be found, like machinery or buildings.  Those make my stomach shrink up and my head hurt.



Philip Overby said:


> 2. What do you think about the supporting cast? (Rike, Makin, the Nuban, etc.)



I'm actually a little disappointed.  I wished there was more to them.  I'm all for large casts and lots of moving pieces, but literally, I can't tell a lot of the brothers apart.  Who is Price?  One of them has no teeth and keeps pronouncing "Jorg" as "Jorth", but other than that... I'm only able to recall certain ones.  For instance, when the priest took Red Kent's confession... I can't remember how he got that name, but it was significant to the point being made.  I skipped over and missed the joke.



Philip Overby said:


> 3. Do you see some semblance of "humanity" (for lack of a better word) creeping into Jorg's character?


  I actually don't, and I'm not sure I miss it.  I loved when he pushed over the glass tree and I think it's great that he is calculating... I do'nt really need him to be human . Please, don't sleep with your aunt.  I know you aren't blood relatives, but you're already depraved and she seems like a nice girl.



Philip Overby said:


> 4. What do you think about Jorg's interactions with his father?



I think the father is testing him and I think he pushes back enough to let him know he's not playing.



Philip Overby said:


> 5. Do you feel like you know where the story is going or do you have no idea?



I hope he doesn't go home, kill his father, throw his step-mother out a window, and take his aunt for his wife.  I mean... that's probably what logically should happen, but I just hope it isn't what DOES.



Philip Overby said:


> 6. Are you finding this novel to be as grim as people made it out to be or do you find it to actually be light in places? (I'm finding more humor, although black humor, it's still humor).



I'm glad there's a deeper story.  As fun as it was to open with the bandits and the journey, I'm glad we get to see Jorg be smart.  He was rather one-dimensional for me for too long and without a larger story (with the dream witch and the Nuban and the magic elements), it was just a story about a kid with bad manners.  A good one... but not enough to carry me through to the end.  With the added elements of Castle Red and the magic... I'm mush more interested in seeing his next move.  Before.. I just didn't want to see another village of shit-poor dirt farmers burn.


----------



## Gryphos

*1. Why do you feel that the king really sent Jorg away? Is it in hopes that he will die given an impossible task? Or is it to really prove himself?*

I do believe it was just a way of offing Jorg. Jorg even suspects that it was the queen's whispering in the king's ear that made him do it. Because either way the king gains something. If Jorg dies, great, a nuisance gone. If he succeeds, great, he just eliminated a threat.

*2. Do you feel like the introduction of Jane and the leucrota seemed out of left field? This definitely appears to be a low magic kind of world, but things are seeping in that don't seem normal. What are your thoughts about them?*

It was definitely sudden, I will say that, but I didn't find it jarring or anything like that. I mean, we did literally see ghosts in one of the early chapters, so a glowing girl and misshapen monsters isn't a huge leap. It is interesting how it's basically revealed at this point that this is actually set in the far future. I started to suspect something possibly like this when they started mentioning not only far distant past people like Socrates, but also relatively recent people like Nietzsche. When I first read that I was like "huh?" but now it all makes sense. And it's fairly clear that this is set in the very distant future what with an actual complex AI (something still beyond us today) as a relic.

*3. How did you feel when some characters died on the way to the Great Stair? *

The only character I really cared about was the Nuban, since I was getting rather attached to him. The others, like that one that fell into a pit whose name I can't remember, I didn't care about at all, but it's not as if the book expected you too. If you were meant to feel bad, the book would dwell on it a bit more than going "Ah well, these dudes be dead". Because of that I don't hold it against the book that I wasn't balling my eyes out at those deaths.

*4. What was the significance (to you) of Jorg eating the necromancer's heart?*

It didn't fully make sense to me. First of all, it was so sudden with no explanation, basically: _Necromancer: "Yo what's u-" *dead* Jorg: "I guess I'd better eat this dude's heart." *nom*_. If they had at least referenced this practise beforehand and given more of a reason it would have been okay, but at this point it does just seem contrived.


----------



## Philip Overby

> Necromancer: "Yo what's u-" *dead* Jorg: "I guess I'd better eat this dude's heart." *nom*.



That cracked me up. I wish that's what he actually said.


----------



## Steerpike

*1. Why do you feel that the king really sent Jorg away? Is it in hopes that he will die given an impossible task? Or is it to really prove himself?
*
I think he meant for Jorg to die and no longer be a thorn in his side. I don't think he had any expectation whatsoever that Jorg would succeed and prove himself.*

2. Do you feel like the introduction of Jane and the leucrota seemed out of left field? This definitely appears to be a low magic kind of world, but things are seeping in that don't seem normal. What are your thoughts about them?

*Not really. At least, it didn't feel that way to me while reading. I figured during the last block we were in some kind of post-apocalyptic world, and given some of the strangeness we'd seen before this didn't bother me. In fact, I thought these elements made the story a lot more interesting. I think we're dealing with remnants of advanced tech, AIs, and the aftermath of advanced warfare.*

3. How did you feel when some characters died on the way to the Great Stair? 

*I, too, only really cared about the Nuban. That was too bad. But I wasn't hugely invested in him. The other deaths didn't bother me in the least. *

4. What was the significance (to you) of Jorg eating the necromancer's heart?

*I think something is going on with Jorg that compels him to do strange things. Things that he might not normally do, or that seem bizarre. I guess we'll see if that is borne out.


----------



## Philip Overby

> I think something is going on with Jorg that compels him to do strange things. Things that he might not normally do, or that seem bizarre. I guess we'll see if that is borne out.



I think this is probably true. As I haven't finished the book, I'm not sure how this plays out yet, but I get the feeling Jorg isn't in complete control of what he does. I believe even Jane mentions this to him when they meet.


----------



## Steerpike

Philip Overby said:


> I think this is probably true. As I haven't finished the book, I'm not sure how this plays out yet, but I get the feeling Jorg isn't in complete control of what he does. I believe even Jane mentions this to him when they meet.



He's going to turn out to be a character in an advanced MMO played by a really weird guy.


----------



## Philip Overby

> He's going to turn out to be a character in an advanced MMO played by a really weird guy.



Spoilers! 

Actually, if that turns out to be true, I don't know if that would be cool or completely disappointing.


----------



## Steerpike

Philip Overby said:


> Spoilers!
> 
> Actually, if that turns out to be true, I don't know if that would be cool or completely disappointing.



I'd be quite put out.


----------



## ACSmyth

I've only started this today. Blame the length of time it took me to get through Perdido Street Station for my tardiness. I'm aiming to catch up over the next couple of days, though. I've skipped past the later comments to avoid spoilers, so here's my chapters 1-12 thoughts.

1. What is your feeling about the novel so far? (If you've read the whole thing, you can give your SPOILER free overview. If you're only read the required Chapters 1-12 for the first week, then you can give initial thoughts.)

It's ok. It's Jorg that makes it different from any number of other fantasy novels. I'd read the sample on Kindle ages ago and decided not to go any further, but it was on sale for 99p before Christmas, so I figured at that price I'd snag it. At the moment, I can't see me continuing with the series, but I notice a lot of you saying you changed your mind on that as you got further through, so I'll reserve judgment. It's reading Abercrombie-ish to me, and I haven't got past book 1 of First Law either.

 2. What is your opinion of Jorg based on the first block of chapters (1-12).

Hard as nails. Utterly ruthless. That he kills on a whim is disturbing to me. You don't need to have done something particularly bad to warrant it. Look at him the wrong way and he's likely to off you.

 3. Does the writing style appeal to you?

After a diet of Jordan and Martin for the last couple of years, it's a relief. I'm not sure he would have got away being so description-lite in a secondary world fantasy, but I'm reading it as far-future Earth, but with a pseudo-medieval feel to it. Maybe society recovering from some apocalyptic event?

 4. How do you feel about the more controversial aspects? Did they turn you off on the novel early on or did they have no effect on your reading?

If they'd been described in glorious Technicolor, they'd have bothered me. As it was, they were off-stage and only warranted a mention. I was far more turned off by Jordan's fixation on spanking, and Martin's breast fetish, to be honest.

 5. Did the writing draw you into the story? If so, what was it about the writing that drew you in? If not, what about the writing kept you at a distance?

Not drawn in, exactly. I never feel inside the protagonist's head, but that's probably a good thing! It goes along at a fair clip, though, and I'm enjoying seeing the % increase quickly. It feels like even if I end up not liking it, it's not been a huge time investment.

 6. Did you respond emotionally to any part of the first block? If so, which part and why?

No.

 7. Was there any part of the first block that dragged? If so, which? 

Didn't drag, but my heart sank at flashbacks quite so early on.

Right. Onto the next portion now!


----------



## Ankari

Some follow up thoughts on Jorg.

I think most of the disconnect between readers and Jorg's ruthlessness is misunderstanding the ruthlessness of his chosen brothers. These are not good people. In fact, they are downright evil. For Jorg to survive, he has to be harder, more ruthless, and deadlier than anyone in this lot. This is leadership by bloody virtue, not by popular vote.

I think Mark Lawrence could have highlighted this tension. If I were his beta reader, I would suggest for some of his secondary characters to perform acts of random violence that falls outside of Jorg's knowledge, or have Jorg witness the bloody evidence of some crime.

Second, I never bought into the father hating his son plotline. I believe the hate is sourced from Sageous. There has been plenty of dialogue eluding to such manipulations. Has anyone else noticed this?

Finally, the necromancer's heart eating was out of left field. Although Mark's writing is naturally clean and requires little grammar editing, I do believe he needs to invest into a content editor. There is another issue I had with the second book that a content editor could have straightened out.

But all these flaws bring up a recurring question: What makes a story great? I think this story ranks in the top tier of exceptional stories. Had the author fixed a few plot issues, they would be great. And you'll note the following stories are better than the proceeding ones.

I'm glad for this reading group. It opened up my repertoire of authors to follow.


----------



## SM-Dreamer

*1. Why do you feel that the king really sent Jorg away? Is it in hopes that he will die given an impossible task? Or is it to really prove himself?*

I think he sent him away to get rid of him. And if by some miracle he succeeds, all the better for the King; it’s a win-win situation for him.

*2. Do you feel like the introduction of Jane and the leucrota seemed out of left field? This definitely appears to be a low magic kind of world, but things are seeping in that don't seem normal. What are your thoughts about them?*

Not really. I started recognizing that it was a future setting in the last block, when he described Tall Castle. When he started reading the notes on Castle Red, I got hints of nuclear mutations, so while I think the leucrota are extreme, they make sense.

*3. How did you feel when some characters died on the way to the Great Stair? *

I thought the character that fell, and Jorg’s description, was funny. I didn’t bond with most of the characters, so their deaths didn’t affect me. I did feel sad when the Nuban died, as I liked him and thought that maybe he touched on Jorg’s last shred of humanity, but I understand his death. I will mention that I have vague recollection of who a character is in a general way when they're mentioned, but that I can't recall specific names later. Then again, I rarely do with secondary characters, so that's likely just me.

*
4. What was the significance (to you) of Jorg eating the necromancer's heart?*
I think it was him trying to absorb the character’s power, as he indicated. Such a practice is not unusual, and while the magic of the necromancer’s threw me off a bit, once I adjusted, it seemed ok. (gross, but ok. I mean, it’s rotted, so ew…)



Steerpike said:


> I think something is going on with Jorg that compels him to do strange things. Things that he might not normally do, or that seem bizarre. I guess we'll see if that is borne out.



I was definitely getting that sense as well, the fact that sometimes he does things without thinking and it works for him, like he’s not in control. Or maybe he just has DID 

I did like the scene with him and the whore; some of his comments there were funny. And I don’t so much feel a disconnect with his ruthlessness, as I just don’t like him. I get/know why he acts the way he does from a psychological standpoint, but I don’t empathize with him. I want him to succeed because he’s interesting and I side with his reasoning.


----------



## Philip Overby

> Some follow up thoughts on Jorg.
> 
> I think most of the disconnect between readers and Jorg's ruthlessness is misunderstanding the ruthlessness of his chosen brothers. These are not good people. In fact, they are downright evil. For Jorg to survive, he has to be harder, more ruthless, and deadlier than anyone in this lot. This is leadership by bloody virtue, not by popular vote.



I think this makes sense, but at the same time Jorg seems to relish in this fact. He never really thinks, "I have to be more ruthless than everyone else to survive." I mean, when he "recruits" the convicts, he does it without any sort of calculating thought or anything. He just does it. That makes me think he's not just being ruthless to keep murderers by his side. It could be something from the thorn bush. I remember one character saying that he wasn't stuck in the thorn bush, that he just stayed there because he was too weak to do anything. For some reason I think the thorn bush is connected to Jorg's drastic change and not just the murder of his family.



> I think Mark Lawrence could have highlighted this tension. If I were his beta reader, I would suggest for some of his secondary characters to perform acts of random violence that falls outside of Jorg's knowledge, or have Jorg witness the bloody evidence of some crime.
> 
> Second, I never bought into the father hating his son plotline. I believe the hate is sourced from Sageous. There has been plenty of dialogue eluding to such manipulations. Has anyone else noticed this?



I prefer to imagine that the king wants Jorg to go away because he's the last semblance of his old family that he just wants to forget. It's kind of a _Flowers in the Attic_ kind of deal (if you don't know that story, it's screwed up). If Sageous is in control of the king and something is in control of Jorg, it kind of makes me feel like the story is just one big chess game between darker powers. Not that it's a bad thing, but I prefer to think of these elements in a more humanistic way.


> Finally, the necromancer's heart eating was out of left field. Although Mark's writing is naturally clean and requires little grammar editing, I do believe he needs to invest into a content editor. There is another issue I had with the second book that a content editor could have straightened out.



Could that have been one of the "shocking moments" to show that Jorg is more ruthless and demented than Rike and the others? I mean he had to beat the hell out of Rike to teach a lesson that he shouldn't cross him. Maybe eating the necromancer heart was one of those things? There's the later part when he plans to use the nuclear stash to blow up the whole continent basically and Makin talks him out of it. It just shows that Jorg has absolutely no concern for the outcome of things. He comes off as a Joker kind of a character, just happy to see the world burn.



> But all these flaws bring up a recurring question: What makes a story great? I think this story ranks in the top tier of exceptional stories. Had the author fixed a few plot issues, they would be great. And you'll note the following stories are better than the proceeding ones.
> 
> I'm glad for this reading group. It opened up my repertoire of authors to follow.



I do feel this has been one of the stronger fantasy stories I've read in a while. It's not because of the supposed "grimness" or anything, it just reads so smoothly and it's never really super confusing to keep up with (the setting was the only off-putting thing at the beginning). He does something that a lot of great authors do: he doesn't teach you everything about the world at the beginning. He says "here's the situation, follow along to find out what happens." Instead of doing tons of tons of world-building, he just takes you along on this journey of vengeance. Maybe that's one thing that's engaging about the story for me. Jorg is unpredictable in his path to vengeance. He doesn't have morality or anything getting in his way, which makes him both an interesting character and one I'm interested to see what he'll do next. While I don't connect with him on any level, I didn't connect with the Joker either. That doesn't make him any less compelling.

I think this is an excellent beginning to a series, and I can see where all the praise is coming from now. Perhaps because it's not the typical fantasy story, it can be harder to get into for some, but that's sort of why I like it. I've read tons of fantasy over the years and I can't think of many I can compare this book to.


----------



## Philip Overby

So we're at the final block now. I'm on chapter 39 I believe, so I'm a bit behind, but I'll try to get caught up. 

In the meantime, how has the final block shaped up for you? Are you encouraged to buy the sequel?

(I'll stay away from here until I finish the book!)


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

Philip Overby said:


> ...how has the final block shaped up for you? Are you encouraged to buy the sequel?


No. I won't be continuing the series.


----------



## Philip Overby

I think I'll buy the sequel eventually. There's other stuff I want to read first, so it may be a while. I did find the method of storytelling engaging for me. I'm kind of a fan of minimalist fiction in a way though. I believe a lot of fantasy is heavily descriptive and wants to be immersive right from the get-go (what I mean is there's not loads of world-building from the beginning) I think Lawrence took a big risk with this novel and I believe it pays off since it offers kind of a different fantasy reading experience for me.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

Philip Overby said:


> I did find the method of storytelling engaging for me. I'm kind of a fan of minimalist fiction in a way though.


Yeah, I enjoyed the style. I like minimalist as well. I just didn't care much for the story.


----------



## Ankari

I bought and read _King of Thorns._ I'll buy _Emperor of Thorns_ soon. I have to say, the second book is leaps and bounds better than the first. Where Mark received a lot of complaints for his unfounded brutal story in the first one, the second book read more like a balanced story.


----------



## Philip Overby

I've heard the same that the sequels get better and better. Some people even listed _Emperor of Thorns_ as the best one in the series. I guess I tend to want to finish a series once I start it one way or another. Since I know it's a trilogy, I don't mind so much reading the others, especially since I've heard they're better than the first one.


----------



## ACSmyth

Still chugging through this. I've got The Scar as my audio book of the moment and Temeraire as my paperback "bath book", and TBH I'm more likely to pick up either of those than this. Jorg has just come back to his father's castle, so I'm waaaaaay behind. But I'll finish it, for sure.


----------



## Philip Overby

That's cool. I'm on Chapter 44 myself, so I'm closing in on the end. If anyone else wants to make closing statements about the book at this point, feel free to do so. I may have some discussion points before long.

(P.S. I'm reading Perdido Street Station again thanks to you, AC! I also have The Scar laying around here in paperback. Is it good?)


----------



## ACSmyth

It's very different to PSS. Not set in New Crobuzon. It's set mainly on a ship, so between that and Temeraire, I keep imagining shipfuls of remade and cactus people with dragons flying overhead. I'm enjoying it, though.


----------



## Philip Overby

*Final Thoughts*

If you haven't finished the book, SPOILERS ahead:




OK, did you go away yet? Here we go:


1. What is your opinion of Corion being injected late into the story?

2. Were Jorg's "evil" deeds being influenced by Corion throughout? 

3. So is Jorg magical in some way? He mentions being like Gog and Jane. I'm not completely sure what that means though.

4. What did you think of the ending of the book? I think it leads in nicely to _King of Thorns_ but I wasn't expecting it to happen that way.

5. Did you feel the ending was paced well or did it come too quickly for your liking?

6. If you didn't enjoy the book, can you say why? If you did enjoy the book, do you have plans to buy other books from Mark Lawrence? 

7. What did you learn as a writer from this book? (both good and bad things)

8. Overall, were you happy with this choice for the Reading Group in February?


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

> 1. What is your opinion of Corion being injected late into the story?


I don't remember the character well, which says a lot of my opinion. I think, however, it was the other dream witch. Again, the whole ending seemed rushed. If these mages are so powerful, they're too easily dispatched. The ending felt contrived to me. It didn't feel natural or very interesting/suspenseful.



> 2. Were Jorg's "evil" deeds being influenced by Corion throughout?


My guess is that it's six of one and a half dozen of the other. Jorg's a sociopath, like his father. Both are manipulated as powerful pawns by those with greater power. Hopefully the sociopath/dream witch link isn't coincidental.



> 3. So is Jorg magical in some way? He mentions being like Gog and Jane. I'm not completely sure what that means though.


Yeah, there's something there... I think there's some link as mentioned in question 4.



> 4. What did you think of the ending of the book? I think it leads in nicely to King of Thorns but I wasn't expecting it to happen that way.


Hmmm.... I was underwhelmed. As I said before, I felt forced and rushed through the last 1/3 of the story. The ending, as a result, was a bit ho-hum for me.



> 5. Did you feel the ending was paced well or did it come too quickly for your liking?


See above.



> 6. If you didn't enjoy the book, can you say why? If you did enjoy the book, do you have plans to buy other books from Mark Lawrence?


Here's what I liked:
1. Easy writing style.
2. The mixture of our world elements into the story

What I didn't like:
1. Underdeveloped characters
2. Elements that came out of left field in the latter third of the story 
3. Forced and over locked ending pace



> 7. What did you learn as a writer from this book? (both good and bad things)


I don't know if I learned anything much as some beliefs are reaffirmed.
1. Transparent writing works
2. Do not force anything into a story, especially the ending 
3. Character development is important 



> 8. Overall, were you happy with this choice for the Reading Group in February?


I'm glad I took part in the group, but I didn't care for the book overall. Looking forward to the next though.


----------



## Ankari

*1. What is your opinion of Corion being injected late into the story?*

I don't think Corion was thrown in at the end. I think Mark Lawrence had the idea that every ruler is, in fact, manipulated by a powerful mage.

Now that I'm considering the story after it has cooled down in my memory, I think Mark's pacing is off. Why didn't the Nubian not mention something earlier in the novel? Why didn't Rike mention his brother's death?

Mark's stories are a great topic of discussion. I think it's a fault of the new way publishers are procuring content. They aren't putting the necessary resources into these books, especially debuts, as they should.

I see this change in the second book. The pacing is much better (except for one scene that didn't sit well with me), and Jorg develops at a constant pace.

*2. Were Jorg's "evil" deeds being influenced by Corion throughout? *

Yes. Sageous and Corion both admit to manipulating Jorg, and even take responsibility for actions in the book.

*3. So is Jorg magical in some way? He mentions being like Gog and Jane. I'm not completely sure what that means though.*

He is. After eating the necromancer's heart, he has a the touch of undeath on his body.

*4. What did you think of the ending of the book? I think it leads in nicely to King of Thorns but I wasn't expecting it to happen that way.*

I didn't like how Jorg overcomes Corion. I felt it to be completely unrealistic. Why didn't anyone respond to the bucking horse?

*5. Did you feel the ending was paced well or did it come too quickly for your liking?*

Pacing was fine. I didn't like how it ended.

*6. If you didn't enjoy the book, can you say why? If you did enjoy the book, do you have plans to buy other books from Mark Lawrence? *

I have, and I'm glad I did. The second book is more polished than the first. I hope the third is even better.

*7. What did you learn as a writer from this book? (both good and bad things)*

I learned that I need to really reconsider my description.

I'm realizing that writing FPoV in a fantasy world is best done from an educated, or higher class character. It would be hard to write from a simple bumpkin because you'd have to draw out description about anything foreign, or uncommon. (If anyone wants to read high caliber FPoV, read Jacqueline Carey's _Kushiel's Legacy series_)

I learned that a book doesn't have to exceed 400 pages.

*8. Overall, were you happy with this choice for the Reading Group in February?*

I was. Despite the first book's many flaws, the quality picks up in the second. I have high hopes for the third.


----------



## Philip Overby

> Here's what I liked:
> 1. Easy writing style.
> 2. The mixture of our world elements into the story



The easy writing style was the biggest plus for me. After reading so much dense fantasy, this was kind of breath of fresh air for me. As I'm reading our March selection, I'm already seeing what reading this kind of book does to me. I prefer the quicker paced fantasy writing. 

The real world elements were clever and interesting, but they weren't the main selling point for me. Actually, they only really played a part with the bomb blowing up the mountain and the A.I. Other than that, they didn't come into play that much. I'm interested to see how they come into play in the sequel.



> What I didn't like:
> 1. Underdeveloped characters
> 2. Elements that came out of left field in the latter third of the story
> 3. Forced and over locked ending pace



I have to disagree with them being underdeveloped characters. I found myself, what's the word, not liking Jorg, but actually getting into a groove with what kind of person he was. While Lawrence may not have used the normal method of developing characters, I still think there was enough done for me to hang my hat on. I especially thought Jorg, Makin, Katherine, Rike, and the Nuban stood out to me. 

Some of the "left field" elements seemed to have been planted with the dream witch business earlier in the story. I could be wrong, but that was my impression with the heart eating and Corion being behind a lot Jorg's situations.

I had hoped the main point of the story would be Jorg getting revenge on Renar, but when Corion came in late in the story, it didn't bother me too much because he had been hinted at earlier with all mention of dream witches. 

I did feel the last part came really fast for me as well, but I can't decide how that effects my overall view of the book. 

From what I've heard of the sequels, I have higher expectations for them. I do think this book is a definite strong debut for what was then a new fantasy author. I can now see why it had the buzz it did behind it. I'll most assuredly want to pick up the next books at some point.

Ninja'd: I'll add to to what Ankari posted:



> I learned that I need to really reconsider my description.



I'm just curious, how so?



> I'm realizing that writing FPoV in a fantasy world is best done from an educated, or higher class character. It would be hard to write from a simple bumpkin because you'd have to draw out description about anything foreign, or uncommon. (If anyone wants to read high caliber FPoV, read Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel's Legacy series)



I agree the first person is harder if you're trying it from the perspective of someone that knows absolutely nothing. I think Lawrence plays well into Jorg's strengths so there isn't a need to explain every single thing. His interaction with the A.I. was pretty funny though, his only really "uneducated" moment (other than the bombs, that is.)



> I learned that a book doesn't have to exceed 400 pages.



I do think this is important not just as a writer, but for this reading group also. I'm not a quick reader, so I would find it pretty hard to finish an 800 page book in one month. I think if we're going to ever tackle something like that it would need to be for maybe a two month span.

From a writer's standpoint, both of my finished first drafts exceed 120,000 words. I'm pretty sure that's over 400 pages. So my next novel, I really hope to try something in the 300-350 page range and just so how it works for me. I didn't feel like everything was crammed in for _Prince of Thorns_ myself, although the end did leave me asking lots of questions.


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## Ankari

> I learned that I need to really reconsider my description.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just curious, how so?
Click to expand...


I'm told I write purple. Very purple. It seems to happen mostly in the earlier drafts. I make it a point to trim as much purple prose as I can while retaining the level of description I like.


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## Philip Overby

I see. I do think my own descriptions were probably more purple at one point. One day I just decided, "I'm going to just write the way I think and not try to make everything poetic." I guess that helped me in some ways. 

I found Lawrence's style to be refreshing myself. I just read so many dense fantasy stories (even my own at times) it was nice to read something that I didn't have to keep putting down over and over again because I was waiting for something to happen.


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## Gryphos

*1. What is your opinion of Corion being injected late into the story?
*
I didn't mind at all since it wasn't shoved in. Throughout the novel it's been hinted at that there was a higher power behind Jorg. Although, I would have preferred for Renar to be the main antagonist of the story and for the real struggle to be with him.

*2. Were Jorg's "evil" deeds being influenced by Corion throughout? 
*
Some, maybe, but for most I would say that Jorg is just a psycho.

*3. So is Jorg magical in some way? He mentions being like Gog and Jane. I'm not completely sure what that means though.
*
To be honest, I have little idea either. I would assume it's something to do with him eating the necromancer heart.

*4. What did you think of the ending of the book? I think it leads in nicely to King of Thorns but I wasn't expecting it to happen that way.
*
It certainly took me by surprise. I was expecting the whole 'taking revenge on Renar' deal to have a bit more build up than it did, with planning and schemes and whatnot. The actual ending I thought was good. It set up the next book well.

*5. Did you feel the ending was paced well or did it come too quickly for your liking?
*
As I said it was sudden and I feel the buildup to it could have been handled better, but I didn't mind that much.

*6. If you didn't enjoy the book, can you say why? If you did enjoy the book, do you have plans to buy other books from Mark Lawrence? 
*
I did enjoy the book very much and I'm definitely planning to complete the series, especially since I hear the others are even better than the first.

*7. What did you learn as a writer from this book? (both good and bad things)
*
I learned that less is often more. You don't need to linger on the details of exactly how a character did an action. You can just say "He drew his sword" and not go about the tiniest details of the way his fingers wrapped around the hilt or the sound it made as it slid out the scabbard.

*8. Overall, were you happy with this choice for the Reading Group in February?
*
Yes, as I said I thoroughly enjoyed the book and am glad it was chosen.


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## Gryphos

T.Allen.Smith said:
			
		

> If these mages are so powerful, they're too easily dispatched.



They're powerful at controlling minds and making illusions, but that doesn't make them superman. If you stab a mage, he's gonna die.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Gryphos said:


> They're powerful at controlling minds and making illusions, but that doesn't make them superman. If you stab a mage, he's gonna die.


Yeah I get that, but Corion was too easy to get close too.

You don't just waltz up to someone that powerful like you're crashing a party wearing fake mustaches. Powerful people have many enemies and, as a result, many lines of defense. The ease I referred to wasn't directed at the wound, but how simple and uninstructed the path was to deliver a killing blow.

It just didn't ring true.


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## Gryphos

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Yeah I get that, but Corion was too easy to get close too.
> 
> You don't just waltz up to someone that powerful like you're crashing a party wearing fake mustaches. Powerful people have many enemies and, as a result, many lines of defense. The ease I referred to wasn't directed at the wound, but how simple and uninstructed the path was to deliver a killing blow.
> 
> It just didn't ring true.



How was Corion supposed to know that Jorg was disguised as Sir Whatshisface? He can't be expected to do everything. So it's understandable that he has to rely on Renar's defences, which Jorg slipped past by wearing Sir Whatshisface's armour.

Also, Corion is powerful, so powerful that Jorg couldn't kill him. No one could kill him, likely. So Corion's defences are impenetrable. But he died because he didn't foresee a bucking horse.


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## Steerpike

Yes. And normally the horse might bother me as a sort of deus ex machina, but I think Lawrence established multiple times that something is going on with Jorg and that blind luck favors him on more than one occasion.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Gryphos said:


> How was Corion supposed to know that Jorg was disguised as Sir Whatshisface? He can't be expected to do everything. So it's understandable that he has to rely on Renar's defences, which Jorg slipped past by wearing Sir Whatshisface's armour.
> 
> Also, Corion is powerful, so powerful that Jorg couldn't kill him. No one could kill him, likely. So Corion's defences are impenetrable. But he died because he didn't foresee a bucking horse.


So I throw on another man's armor and waltz right up? No one formidable is guarding Corian. Hell, why not just waltz over to Renar's castle, throw on their uniforms and do the same? Sorry, it was just way too easy for my liking. Your mileage may vary.




Steerpike said:


> Yes. And normally the horse might bother me as a sort of deus ex machina, but I think Lawrence established multiple times that something is going on with Jorg and that blind luck favors him on more than one occasion.



The bucking horse does feel like a Deus Ex Machina because the ending was poorly developed, and with too much haste. If Jorg's magical luck had received more elaboration, I might be able to buy it. However, what I was left with was....

1) Jorg was lucky to get the important knight's uniform
2) Jorg was lucky in the tournament melee
3) Jorg was lucky that Corion is surrounded by incompetents 
4) Jorg was lucky a horse randomly struck his foe

That's a bit too much for me, magical luck or not. 

If we're going to develop Jorg's magical luck slowly, I'd be more accepting of it if the effects of that luck were also limited, or sometimes did not work to his advantage. It also brings up a question of power. How powerful is a mage that can't protect himself at all? Yes, the horse was random but everything else? Am I to believe that this ultra-powerful, one of a few dream-witches, is also too incompetent to surround himself with suitable protectors in a realm that is so wrought with conflict and with enemies in every corner?


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## Gryphos

One thing that I did notice in general. Why are people so goddamn fragile? It's like they're held together with sticks. I really struggle to believe that Jorg could break the neck of a fully armoured man by head butting him.


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## Philip Overby

I got the impression Jorg is just superhuman in some way. He survives a hook briar that should have killed him, beat up Rike, got stabbed and probably other things that would kill normal folks. So he must have a hard head.


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## ACSmyth

Up to chapter 32. Flagging. Send dragons.


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## andy.peloquin

I'm in the middle of listening to the book rather than reading it, and I find it a bit disjointed. It's lacking a bit in depth, and you don't really come to identify or even really like the character at all. I'm almost inclined to stop reading it in favor of another book that does snag my attention.


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## Ankari

For anyone who felt nothing for Jorg in _Prince of Thorns,_ but liked Mark Lawrence's writing style, reading the rest of the series will be a treat. Jorg grows in the later books. He still has an edge to him, but it is tempered by experience.

I'm halfway through the third book now. I can honestly say the third is better than the second (so far), which was better than the first.


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## Philip Overby

I've heard this as well that the books get better as the series goes along. That's good to hear because some series tend to fizzle out if they go overly long. I have high hopes for anything Lawrence puts out at this point. He's on my "must buy" list now, but I'm so far behind on other reading, I'm going to have to wait awhile to get the other books in the series.


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## Ankari

Well, I have just finished the last book of the Broken Empire series, _Emperor of Thorns,_ and all I can say is bravo! One of the most satisfying series I've read in a long time.


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## Caged Maiden

When I finished the first book, there were a few things that didn't make me immediately go buy the next one.  One, I absolutely HATE Jorg's interest in his "aunt".  For me, that single dreaded relationship is probably the most pertinent reason I don't want to read further.  The lesser but still countable reason is that I didn't get the world.  I didn't like the nuke bit and I didn't love the constant weird referrals to real-world things that pointed toward some alternate future or whatever it is.  By Ankari's recommendation however... I might have to get over it and give it a try.


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## Philip Overby

I didn't know how I felt about Jorg's interest in Katherine, but ultimately it didn't bother me a whole lot. I did like the world a lot, including the bits about it being the real world. Being that it was a deep POV, I felt like it didn't make a lot of sense for Jorg to go on and on about how "Before the great nuclear war, etc. etc." He mentions things here and there, but it's never completely spelled out. I kind of appreciated that I wasn't beaten over the head with it when so often in fantasy it's imperative that all the world-building is clear from the get go. I feel like Steven Erikson is another writer who just "tosses you in the deep end" so to speak. Some people like that approach, others don't. 

I'll more than likely finish the series at some point as well.


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## Caged Maiden

yeah, I wasn't implying I needed more worldly detail  I too appreciated minor details and no overwhelming depth.  What I didn't like was the concept of a post-apocalyptic world where humans remained the same, but magic and necromancy somehow became real, but then they reverted to a Medieval technology and social structure.  It seemed unbelievable for me to set it in our world and the Jesus references just really turned me off, as with the Plato ones.  I wished for it to have just been a made-up world is all.  Somewhere else where nuclear war happened and survivors (who had always lived in a world allowing magic) had to rebuild but had lost the memory or what catastrophe struck.  

I didn't like the real-world references because to me they didn't make sense.  Like... if the whole world goes to shit and people forget EVERYTHING about their technology... the things that will survive are Plato and Jesus?  I don't think so.  Couldn't it be equally possible the only things to survive were a couple Britney Spears posters and they worship her as the Mother of Creation?  That was sort of what I had a problem with.  I'd have preferred a little more creativity, either a whole world of imaginated (yep... I actually wrote that... so I left it for a laugh.  This is what happens when we type fast and seriously why first drafts suck   ) things or a real world that explored the theory of what might survive a little more.  Like... why would they have castles and fight with swords?  Why wouldn't they have SOME elements of the "future" mixed in with the more primitive examples?  

Like I said, it isn't awful... but it turned me off a little.  I was way into Jorg and his journey.  I liked the Brothers and the world.  I liked Jorg's goals and his inner thoughts and his relationships.  For me... that concept of the pretty, smart maiden who tames the nobleman because he just can't think about other women makes me throw up a little.  I mean.. is that how men work?  Because it isn't how women work.  I always thought that concept was a broken tool in the romance writer toolbox.  I seriously hope their budding relationship (I'm guessing here but hoping she dies and he forgets all about her) experiences a little more realism in the future.  I just can't believe Jorg would be so swept up in one woman's beauty or poise or whatever got to him, that he would react so out of character to it.


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## Philip Overby

I prefer to read "second world" fantasy as well, but I was fine with it the way it turned out. I guess more details might be unveiled in later books, so that would be interesting for me to see.



> Like I said, it isn't awful... but it turned me off a little. I was way into Jorg and his journey. I liked the Brothers and the world. I liked Jorg's goals and his inner thoughts and his relationships. For me... that concept of the pretty, smart maiden who tames the nobleman because he just can't think about other women makes me throw up a little. I mean.. is that how men work? Because it isn't how women work. I always thought that concept was a broken tool in the romance writer toolbox. I seriously hope their budding relationship (I'm guessing here but hoping she dies and he forgets all about her) experiences a little more realism in the future. I just can't believe Jorg would be so swept up in one woman's beauty or poise or whatever got to him, that he would react so out of character to it.



I took his instant attraction to Katherine to be that Jorg had been on the road since he was a boy. He probably hadn't seen a woman who looked like her and acted like her so it was sort of the "forbidden fruit" deal. That's just what I'm guessing.


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