# How should I approach writing low fantasy?



## Peregrine (Jun 18, 2017)

My fantasy is set in pre-modern time in fictional feudal, imperial, nomadic and tribal states.

It is a low fantasy.

There are creatures such as dragons and dwarfs, but there are no orcs, humanoid gods and elves for example.

I have only 4 humanoid species.

There is no physical presence of gods/god and magic absolutely does not exist (or almost).

Real world natural laws apply to this fantasy world as well.

I have only one supernatural or magic thing in my fantasy, the undead.

The undead are corporeal living corpses, but they can not be skeletal.

If I decide to remove undead, my fantasy would be completely magic-less.

I am currently not sure whether to include undead or not. The reason why I am not sure is because I can not explain how does one become undead and how undeath is spread.
Should I include undead or not?

How should I approach writing very low fantasy?

And how is it different from writing high fantasy?


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## Ruru (Jun 18, 2017)

From what I understand, the major difference between high and low fantasy is that high fantasy is set in an entirely created or new world: something that the author has constructed. It has its own physical rules (different from Earth) and tends to to be heavy on creatures and races. 

Low fantasy is generally an alternate view of Earth, with many of the same traits that we see around us, but a few differences. For example Jonathan Stroud's Bartimaeus, set in modern day London where all the politicians are wizards who summon demons to do their bidding. The main physical rules of Earth apply, but we have the addition of wizards and demons. 

You've said you're working in pre-modern times, is this Earth? For low fantasy that seems to be the biggest question. My guess is that you approach low fantasy by imagining the creatures you want to use (your dragons, dwarfs and various humanoids) as part of Earth in the time period you are using (our history of Earth being of course immaterial). Dragons is a nice easy one to a degree, being such a large part of Nordic culture to begin with they are almost already written in. 

Hope that helps a bit on the low/high fantasy thing? There are many different sub genres to, and stories that just don't fit anywhere. One question, why does it need to be low fantasy in particular?

As to the undead, I guess including them comes down to the question of: does the story need them? What they are for in the story line will dictate a lot about how they come to be.
If the story does need them, then decide how they are created. Do you want them to be a disease, spreading uncontrollably and becoming an ever growing threat? Are they slaves, witch crafted into animation for high paying feudal lords to do their dirty work? Are they mechanizations created by the dwarfs? Are they corpses hosting larval dragons, incubating the growing creature within until they are able to burst forth fully formed? Largely I don't think low fantasy restricts you from any of this, so long as it remains within the rough confines of Earth. 

Hope that's helped!


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## Peregrine (Jun 18, 2017)

When i wa young i did not care whether fantasy was high or low but now as a adult i have a preference for low fantasy and a disinterest in high fantasy. 

The undead are not slaves of anybody, they are independent and have their own lichdom. Yes undeath should spread in my world, though not like a virus pandemic.
The undead could be the "orcs" of my world, i mean bad guys.

Its not historical fantasy, it takes place in a fictional world with fictional lands.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jun 18, 2017)

Just write it. But there must be magic in the world for a lichdom with true undead, or a hefty suspension of disbelief. Getting rid of or keeping it is entirely upto you. Worrying about high/low and anything else is kind of pointless unless there is a particular genre expectation and/or conventions that must be met... see Romance, Thrillers. I don't see where low fantasy has an expectation of this sort, because low and high and all the subgenres blend all over the place.

I would add, once you go to a no magic world, and it's a totally fictional world, I see no point to it as a reader. Keeping the undead gives the story reason not to be on Earth, as far as I'm concerned.


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## Steerpike (Jun 18, 2017)

Demesnedenoir said:


> I would add, once you go to a no magic world, and it's a totally fictional world, I see no point to it as a reader.



Gormenghast, not only a seminal fantasy work but an achievement in English literature. 
Swordspoint and Privilege of the Sword. 
Many works of Guy Gavriel Kay.
KJ Parker (the Engineer Trilogy-amazing).
etc.

What is the point of a story? To entertain and/or inform, I suspect, for most people. Can be done with or without magic.


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## skip.knox (Jun 18, 2017)

You asked what is the difference between low and high fantasy. Then you mentioned that now you're an adult you prefer low to high fantasy. This leaves me puzzled. How do *you* tell the difference?

That aside, I'm not sure what it means to approach writing. As Night's Domain says, just write it. If you publish traditionally, your agent/publisher will tell you what genre it belongs to. If you self-publish, you can get feedback from your betas or editor. Who knows, maybe you'll invent a new genre!


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## Steerpike (Jun 18, 2017)

I've seen the real world versus invented world distinction before, and I don't care for it. I think a lot of people, including many writers, look at the distinction between high and low fantasy in terms of differences in prevalence of magic, scope, character moralists and so on.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jun 18, 2017)

This was for me personally, as a reader. I have not and will not read those. I wasn't speaking for the world, LOL.

I tried reading Gormenghast, I couldn't stomach it. Magic or no.



Steerpike said:


> Gormenghast, not only a seminal fantasy work but an achievement in English literature.
> Swordspoint and Privilege of the Sword.
> Many works of Guy Gavriel Kay.
> KJ Parker (the Engineer Trilogy-amazing).
> ...


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## Steerpike (Jun 18, 2017)

Demesnedenoir said:


> This was for me personally, as a reader. I have not and will not read those. I wasn't speaking for the world, LOL.



Yes, but I'm curious as to why. These stories couldn't be set in the real world--they don't fit into it. Since they need an invented world, that's what the author does. But you're talking about the "point" of a story. What point does the story gain when it is placed in an imaginary world AND given magic that it doesn't have without the magic?


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## valiant12 (Jun 18, 2017)

> The undead are not slaves of anybody, they are independent and have their own lichdom. Yes undeath should spread in my world, though not like a virus pandemic.
> The undead could be the "orcs" of my world, i mean bad guys.
> 
> Its not historical fantasy, it takes place in a fictional world with fictional lands.



Maybe you should use orcs. 
Undeads are too magical for a world withouth magick. 



> There are creatures such as dragons and dwarfs, but there are no orcs, humanoid gods and elves for example.





> Real world natural laws apply to this fantasy world as well.



 Classical Dragons have six limbs , are very big and they breath fire. They aren't realistic and that make them cool.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jun 18, 2017)

My entertainment value. Point might not be the right word, there well could be a point, but I like an element of magic and mystical... although it wouldn't necessarily have to be "real" it could be a belief. I've a finite time remaining and I am ridiculously picky on my reading list. If its called "fantasy" I want that element. Same as if it is a "thriller" I have expectations. In magic-fantasy, I don't want wand wielding twits and "magic schools", I loathe them, in particular if it mimicks a modern school setting. I also despise "magic words" that can end my reading right quick. A magical education more like a religious setting, I'm good with. Magic could also be replaced with religion, the mystical. Now, on the flip-side, I'm also not fond of books that take place in the modern real world and have magic. Old world and magic? Okay.

Now, I've read some interesting stuff on Gormenghast and "magic". And, is it really another world? Or just a mythical place in our world? From the little I know, that's left uncertain.

Naturally, there are potential exceptions to all rules.

And I don't read anything for the pretty writing. Pretty doesn't cut it for me. Rothfuss writes well enough (although I think many over rate his prose) but he tortures me and a lot of people I know with his storytelling. 



Steerpike said:


> Yes, but I'm curious as to why. These stories couldn't be set in the real world--they don't fit into it. Since they need an invented world, that's what the author does. But you're talking about the "point" of a story. What point does the story gain when it is placed in an imaginary world AND given magic that it doesn't have without the magic?


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## Heliotrope (Jun 18, 2017)

My opinion is to use whatever is necessary to the story. 

What is the point of the undead? What purpose to they serve to the story? Would the plot change if you replaced them with wolves or lions or aliens? If the answer is no, then consider why they are even there in the first place. All elements of a story must be there for a reason. A reason that serves the plot.

What is the point of the dragons and dwarves, what purpose do they serve to the plot? 

Why four humanoid species? What purpose does it serve to the plot?

High Fantasy does not mean "copy Tolkien". If there is no reason to include orcs and elves then don't. Invent your own creatures. But they must serve the plot.


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## Peregrine (Jun 18, 2017)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Just write it. But there must be magic in the world for a lichdom with true undead, or a hefty suspension of disbelief. Getting rid of or keeping it is entirely upto you. Worrying about high/low and anything else is kind of pointless unless there is a particular genre expectation and/or conventions that must be met... see Romance, Thrillers. I don't see where low fantasy has an expectation of this sort, because low and high and all the subgenres blend all over the place.
> 
> I would add, once you go to a no magic world, and it's a totally fictional world, I see no point to it as a reader. Keeping the undead gives the story reason not to be on Earth, as far as I'm concerned.



When you saw the word lich you immediately thought a undead magician. Well its not, a lich does not have to be a magician. The lich is not a magician, he is just a king who is immortal, that is why he is a lich.

He does not even have a phylactery, what you might imagine him to have.

I called him lich because he is immortal king because he is undead, nothing else.

You did not read it right, I did not worry whether the fantasy was high or low because I know I will write low fantasy and only low fantasy, I just wonder how is it different from writing high fantasy, what are the main differences in that.


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## Peregrine (Jun 18, 2017)

When you saw the word lich you immediately thought a undead magician. Well its not, a lich does not have to be a magician. The lich is not a magician, he is just a king who is immortal, that is why he is a lich.

He does not even have a phylactery, what you might imagine him to have.

I called him lich because he is immortal king because he is undead, nothing else.

You did not read it right, I did not worry whether the fantasy was high or low because I know I will write low fantasy and only low fantasy, I just wonder how is it different from writing high fantasy, what are the main differences in that.


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## Peregrine (Jun 18, 2017)

Orcs are magic to me as much as undead.


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## Peregrine (Jun 18, 2017)

Why do I need a reason for every single creature such as a dragon? If I like it, I use it.

The undead may serve the purpose of a common and demonized enemy similarly to the orcs.


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## FifthView (Jun 18, 2017)

Well, if a world has no magic, what's to distinguish it from something like a science fiction story? I mean, if dragons and the like exist, they could simply be different life forms that evolved on a different planet. Lots of scientists (and SF writers!) have imagined that life could evolve in very different ways on other planets. With the absence of magic, then this world could conceivably be considered another planet in our own universe.

And that's okay as far as I'm concerned. In other words, I wouldn't care whether it's called fantasy or SF that just happens to be located entirely on a low-tech alien world. Chances are good my own brain would interpret a world with dragons as "fantasy," just from habit, hah.

Of course, if unexplained and weird things happen that seem to break science, then I'd also assume some kind of magical scaffold exists even if that magic is never mentioned, described, and goes unused by the intelligent species on the planet. So, it'd still seem like fantasy.

Anyway...as for the undead....I could imagine having such a race in a SF novel. It could be kinda part of the life process, i.e. have an origin in the biology of the species and evolution of that planet. Creature has three life phases:

1. Lives
2. "Dies"
3. Is reborn in some way as the cells are altered, DNA is altered, by whatever tiny organisms handle "dead" cells on that planet.

—Or some variation of that. It'd be a bit like a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. Don't those caterpillars turn into goo within the cocoon? Then they rebuild the body.

Now, if your "undead" race doesn't have a first stage of being a living being, per se, it could still have some other first stage. Or maybe the first stage and the last stage are very similar, with only small differences. Someone from another race might think of these undead as coming in two varieties, without knowing why, when they are really seeing mixed groups of these two stages.

Edit: Incidentally, this could also explain the immortality of the lich king. He's the only one capable of going through that rebirth process multiple times, or an infinite number of times.

Edit#2: As for how this "undeath" is spread...basically same sort of thing. Essentially, there are other organisms in the biosphere that cause it; the "undead" race may be living in symbiosis with these organisms (as we all do, w/ thousands of varieties in our own bodies), and maybe when they touch or bite others, or whatever, the organisms are transferred and begin genetically altering the victim to make the victim subject to the death/rebirth cycle. Something like that maybe.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jun 18, 2017)

No, I did not immediately think that. Undead means magic of a sort period, period. From your description I wouldn't any sort of magician. Liche magicians are D&D crapola anyhow. I don't buy any psuedo-science stuff to explain the undead. Of course you can use sciency explanations.. FV's idea of a race, ok, but spreading? meh. In the end, I'll call it magic but you define it as you want.



Peregrine said:


> When you saw the word lich you immediately thought a undead magician. Well its not, a lich does not have to be a magician. The lich is not a magician, he is just a king who is immortal, that is why he is a lich.
> 
> He does not even have a phylactery, what you might imagine him to have.
> 
> ...


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## psychotick (Jun 18, 2017)

Hi,

I wouldn't worry about the distinction between high and low fantasy here. The question is really how what magical elements there are in your story effect the other elements of it - the plot, the world build and the characters. For eample you've mentioned dragons - are they real? Do they fly and breathe fire? If so your world build changes. Suddenly you have cities with watch towers built of non-flammable materials - slate roof tiles, and no open topped structures. You also likely have people who worship dragons. Or do dragons mostly stay curled up in their caverns for centuries at a time, and so you have areas where people if they are smart, don't go.

For the undead - do all the dead get up? Or only some? Why? And what solutions are there? If the only solution is fire, ie turning the dead to ashes, every funeral will be a cremation. If the dead can be safely interred as long as the proper prayers are spoken - you have a religion and gods ready made for you - Arkay from Skyrim since you mentioned this in the other post.

Take each magical element and ask yourself - how will this affect people living in this world? After you've done that you can worry about how it affects the plot. For example is taking a shortcut through a tomb such a clever idea if the dead really do get up when they're disturbed.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Rkcapps (Jun 19, 2017)

I agree, just write it. If you need the undead for your story then include them. They'd certainly add conflict and ramp up the stakes  Good luck!


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## Peregrine (Jun 19, 2017)

I will remove the undead.
I just can not digest the idea of undead.

Others have said some novels such as Swordspoint who seem to have no magic or barely magic at all.
A fantasy can exist without magic, even if the reader has expectations that if its fantasy, it must have magic in it.
So Demesnedenoire, your argument is invalid.

I have a better question that fits more the title of this thread.

*I will rephrase the question: How should I approach writing non-supernatural/magicless fantasy?*

I can be a bit too realistic about fictional creatures, but I can not just classify my fantasy as science fiction.

Why?

Because the world I am creating is meant to represent an alternate Earth, not a alien planet.

No creature in this fictional world looks alien.

There are creatures in this fictional world that exist on earth too, such as deer, wolverines, badgers, foxes and goats.

Would you classify my writing as science fiction if I told you I included unicorns, dragons, cockatrices and wargs? All originating from medieval European folklore, with the last being from Norse mythology.

The four humanoid species I mentioned are not aliens, but are based on species similar to humans.
They all look "human", no green-skins, no pointy-eared elves, no magical races, their differences are evolutionary just like the differences between a human and a neanderthal.


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## Peregrine (Jun 19, 2017)

The fictional creatures are not always identical to the mythology I draw inspiration from.

Sometimes I subvert them.

For examples, unicorns are not always white and the horn of a unicorn looks more like the horn of a one-horned rhinoceros horn than like a narwhal's horn.


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## Peregrine (Jun 19, 2017)

I think I believe something along the lines of this: “A novel set in a world with invented history, invented people, invented countries, and so on can be fantasy. It doesn’t have to be alternative history (particularly if it’s not closely based on an Earth country), and it doesn’t have to be science fiction (particularly if it doesn’t deal closely with science and the effects of science on human lives).” But still, what does this mean non-magic fantasy is?

For me, non-magic fantasy tells the story of people interacting with the world around them in the same manner that we in our world would. The only difference? It’s not ours. It has an unique geography, cultural history, and flora and fauna, but it still essentially obeys real world physics. To my mind, the defining feature of non-magic fantasy is the quality of worldbuilding and how that worldbuilding serves as a proxy for deeper, better, or more complex understanding of our own. A fantasy story is at its heart an allegory. But it needn’t be magical or mystical, it can be realist. Not only having and obeying its own internal logic, but mirroring our own. It is a way to distance ourselves from ourselves while still being quite intimate.


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## psychotick (Jun 19, 2017)

Hi,

Your latest question seems to suggest you want to write a fantasy story with no fantasy elements. I'm not sure how that works. But really I think you're getting hung up on the idea that it's a fantasy story. I think it's not. It's just a general fiction / maybe adventure story. Depending on the epoch it could be something along the lines of "Clan of the Cave Bear" or "Gormenghast".

The main difference between your story and a fantasy high or low, is probably the lack of a world build that's needed. If there's no fantasy element you don't need to explain them and revolve the plot / characters around them.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Peregrine (Jun 19, 2017)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your latest question seems to suggest you want to write a fantasy story with no fantasy elements. I'm not sure how that works. But really I think you're getting hung up on the idea that it's a fantasy story. I think it's not. It's just a general fiction / maybe adventure story. Depending on the epoch it could be something along the lines of "Clan of the Cave Bear" or "Gormenghast".
> 
> ...



How can you be so sure that there are no fantasy elements, did you even read the first page? 

And did you even read the text on the third page where I said "I included unicorns, dragons, cockatrices and wargs?"

Creatures such as dragons and unicorns are fantasy elements.

Magic is just one of fantasy elements.

It is what the majority of readers would expect, but why should someone be slaves to the readers and more importantly, slaves to the popular image of what fantasy should look like?


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## Peregrine (Jun 19, 2017)

I can not believe that somebody on this forum actually said that my "medieval" world with dragons, dwarfs and unicorns is science fiction.

You can't be that ignorant.


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## FifthView (Jun 19, 2017)

Demesnedenoir said:


> No, I did not immediately think that. Undead means magic of a sort period, period. From your description I wouldn't any sort of magician. Liche magicians are D&D crapola anyhow. I don't buy any psuedo-science stuff to explain the undead. Of course you can use sciency explanations.. FV's idea of a race, ok, but spreading? meh. In the end, I'll call it magic but you define it as you want.



It...depends. 

If I were writing such a story and wanted to market it as SF, I'd feel compelled to offer the scientific explanation of things or at least suggest a substructure of science. This would probably require outsiders to that planet or else individuals on the planet who know there is a scientific basis. For me, it's not really pseudo-science, or at least doesn't need to be. An entire planet infected with nanomachinery that automatically repairs some things (like the bodies of a particular race of creatures) may be far-fetched, but it's not beyond the realm of imagination vis-a-vis science. Or else, tiny organic "machines" (various organisms) could do this as a part of that planet's biosphere. I'm no scientist, so without research I'd be relying on some handwavium perhaps, heh.

Without that kind of specific explanation in-story, the story would come across as fantasy and might as well be fantasy.

Why dragons, orcs, and the like? In a SF story, perhaps the creators of these nanomachines or tiny organisms designed the world that way, hah, trying to recreate the worlds they read about in their youth.

This may be a case of "Any sufficiently advanced technology...." 

So for me fantasy's not necessarily defined by whether magic exists, per se, but maybe it's defined by whether a scientific explanation exists in-world. Without that scientific substructure, whatever happens on the world would appear to be fantasy. Dragons, orcs, and the like without a scientific explanation? Fantasy. 

(Plus, there's an automatic association of those things with fantasy. But similarly, there's an automatic association of other things with SF. So even if those dragons weren't given a scientific explanation, having a rocket ship land on the world....well. We could be entering the realm of hybrid genres, hah. Depends.)


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jun 19, 2017)

Peregrine said:


> You can't be that ignorant.



1) We do not attack other members on this forum. If you are unclear regarding the rules of conduct at Mythic Scribes, you may read them here: https://mythicscribes.com/forums/news-and-announcements/9-forum-rules.html

2) There seems to be a lot of confusion on what you're trying to communicate. You have this story world formed in your head. The other members who are attempting to help you do not. Therefore...
     a) You should realize their understanding is not as complete as yours.
     b) They are trying to *HELP* you. Please respect that.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jun 19, 2017)

Well, there is a point where tech becomes "magic". Sci-fantasy sort of stuff does this. But that doesn't appear the direction the story is going. I think the nanotech could work for undead if not called undead, LOL. In the OP's case, assuming there isn't some super important need to explain the undead (seeing as the undead thing is of questionable importance anyhow) I'd just write it. There's no need to explain why there's undead, just do it. So I stick with my original advice, just write it. Write it straight, readers roll with it.



FifthView said:


> It...depends.
> 
> If I were writing such a story and wanted to market it as SF, I'd feel compelled to offer the scientific explanation of things or at least suggest a substructure of science. This would probably require outsiders to that planet or else individuals on the planet who know there is a scientific basis. For me, it's not really pseudo-science, or at least doesn't need to be. An entire planet infected with nanomachinery that automatically repairs some things (like the bodies of a particular race of creatures) may be far-fetched, but it's not beyond the realm of imagination vis-a-vis science. Or else, tiny organic "machines" (various organisms) could do this as a part of that planet's biosphere. I'm no scientist, so without research I'd be relying on some handwavium perhaps, heh.
> 
> ...


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## Peregrine (Jun 19, 2017)

FifthView said:


> It...depends.
> 
> If I were writing such a story and wanted to market it as SF, I'd feel compelled to offer the scientific explanation of things or at least suggest a substructure of science. This would probably require outsiders to that planet or else individuals on the planet who know there is a scientific basis. For me, it's not really pseudo-science, or at least doesn't need to be. An entire planet infected with nanomachinery that automatically repairs some things (like the bodies of a particular race of creatures) may be far-fetched, but it's not beyond the realm of imagination vis-a-vis science. Or else, tiny organic "machines" (various organisms) could do this as a part of that planet's biosphere. I'm no scientist, so without research I'd be relying on some handwavium perhaps, heh.
> 
> ...



That looks like a oversimplified viewpoint of what fantasy is or is not (through scientific explanation).

I cringe when people treat magic like science.


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## FifthView (Jun 19, 2017)

I agree. Just write it. It'll come across as fantasy without the explanation.

What threw me off is the OP's question of trying to explain undeath and how it spreads. That's like looking for an explanation in what was called a world where magic does not exist. ("Or, almost.") So it was like trying to find a scientific, or at least non-magical, explanation of undeath.

Without that explanation, it would come across as magic, even if the magic isn't explained.

I think there might be dueling impulses in the OP's general idea:  Trying to kill all magic in that world while simultaneously using fantastic (fantasy) creatures.



Demesnedenoir said:


> Well, there is a point where tech becomes "magic". Sci-fantasy sort of stuff does this. But that doesn't appear the direction the story is going. I think the nanotech could work for undead if not called undead, LOL. In the OP's case, assuming there isn't some super important need to explain the undead (seeing as the undead thing is of questionable importance anyhow) I'd just write it. There's no need to explain why there's undead, just do it. So I stick with my original advice, just write it. Write it straight, readers roll with it.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jun 19, 2017)

Hmm, I didn't argue against a magicless world, I just said I probably wouldn't read it. Write whatever you want, it is completely valid. Now you are writing alternate Earth/history, which is a particular form of fantasy, no undead (I think that's wise with this additional knowledge of alt history and evolution). I'm not an alt-history/Earth reader, but with that genre label you should be able to get better advice on how to appraoch the writing.

My advice is still the same for writing it. Just write it. There isn't a different approach far as I'm concerned. You write it straight, treat everything as real, off you go. 90% of the scenes or more in many fantasies don't contain magic anyhow. I don't aproach anything differently if writing a western or a fantasy or a murder mystery (except of course genre conventions, there must be a murder to solve in a murder mystery, heh heh, and there must be suspects, twists, red herrings, etc). 



Peregrine said:


> I will remove the undead.
> I just can not digest the idea of undead.
> 
> Others have said some novels such as Swordspoint who seem to have no magic or barely magic at all.
> ...


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## Peregrine (Jun 19, 2017)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> 1) We do not attack other members on this forum. If you are unclear regarding the rules of conduct at Mythic Scribes, you may read them here: https://mythicscribes.com/forums/news-and-announcements/9-forum-rules.html
> 
> 2) There seems to be a lot of confusion on what you're trying to communicate. You have this story world formed in your head. The other members who are attempting to help you do not. Therefore...
> a) You should realize their understanding is not as complete as yours.
> b) They are trying to *HELP* you. Please respect that.



Deleted comments due to disrespectful nature.


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## Peregrine (Jun 19, 2017)

FifthView said:


> I agree. Just write it. It'll come across as fantasy without the explanation.
> 
> What threw me off is the OP's question of trying to explain undeath and how it spreads. That's like looking for an explanation in what was called a world where magic does not exist. ("Or, almost.") So it was like trying to find a scientific, or at least non-magical, explanation of undeath.
> 
> ...



I told, that I gave up on undead, so undead do not matter now, and of course I also think that the existence of undead is a magical thing.

To me a dragon is not magic, they are not made of magic, its a two-legged winged reptile that has the ability to breathe fire.

I include only biologically plausible animals, only those that can work in real life, for example a four-legged dragon is unrealistic, but a two-legged is realistic.

You concluded that magicless world can not coexist with mythical creatures, they can coexist with each other because I never include unrealistic creatures such as hippogryphs, bull-men and mermaids.

There are creatures from mythology that can work in real life, you know, by evolution and biology.

MYTHICAL CREATURE =/= MAGIC or MAGICAL

A mythical creature doesn't necessarily have to be magical.

Some mythical creatures exist because of magic, but mine don't.


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## glutton (Jun 19, 2017)

The idea people have that a world without explicit magic can't be fantasy is strange to me.

So if the world has 500' monsters and human girl warriors who can beat those monsters in melee along with killing hundreds of men in a single day, tanking the equivalent of .50 calibur bullets to the head and city-shaking explosions, swimming from their world's south pole to another continent and other ridiculous feats like that, it would not be fantasy just because their abilities aren't attributed to magic?

(My own works have magic, I'm just saying even without it, the Baeforce/what Girl Pride can accomplish in them is pretty fantastic)


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## FifthView (Jun 19, 2017)

Peregrine said:


> You concluded that magicless world can not coexist with mythical creatures, they can coexist with each other because I never include unrealistic creatures such as hippogryphs, bull-men and mermaids.
> 
> There are creatures from mythology that can work in real life, you know, by evolution and biology.



No, what I concluded was this:



FifthView said:


> I mean, if dragons and the like exist, they could simply be different life forms that evolved on a different planet. Lots of scientists (and SF writers!) have imagined that life could evolve in very different ways on other planets. With the absence of magic, then this world could conceivably be considered another planet in our own universe.
> 
> And that's okay as far as I'm concerned.



In the bit you quoted, I was responding to someone else and referencing your original post, where you were looking for an explanation of the undead. You've since moved the goal post by deciding that these undead don't exist in your world. But if you look at my first comment in this thread, you'll find:

1. I did give a possible non-magical explanation of the undead. Heck, if you are now saying that these dragons are natural creatures that evolved that way, without magic, you could also conceive of natural microorganisms that evolved—not magic!—to make the undead possible.

2. I did NOT say your story is SF. I asked what would distinguish it from SF. Plus, I said that your idea, without magic, would still come across to me as fantasy. Basically, if you were looking for explanations, you could tap into the way a SF writer might look for natural explanations for fantastic things; this is a tool or process you could use. This was the entire purpose of that comment. You've now given up on the idea of the undead; so maybe this is now unimportant.

3. I've basically been saying all along that a non-magic world could still be read as fantasy. Isn't this what you've been saying?


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## kikyo (Jun 19, 2017)

glutton said:


> The idea people have that a world without explicit magic can't be fantasy is strange to me.
> 
> So if the world has 500' monsters and human girl warriors who can beat those monsters in melee along with killing hundreds of men in a single day, tanking the equivalent of .50 calibur bullets to the head and city-shaking explosions, swimming from their world's south pole to another continent and other ridiculous feats like that, it would not be fantasy just because their abilities aren't attributed to magic?
> 
> (My own works have magic, I'm just saying even without it, the Baeforce/what Girl Pride can accomplish in them is pretty fantastic)



In my opinion, if you include anything that is make-believe, then it is fantasy.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Jun 19, 2017)

I know the undead thingies are gone, but, ya know, there are lots of horror novels with undead, and no one refers to those novels as fantasy novels, or claims that the undead therein are necessarily magical. Of course, those novels are marketed as horror novels, not as fantasy novels, low or high or otherwise.

But I'm with a lot of the others who posted here. Write the story. Then look at what you have and decide if it fits the genre you want it to fit. If it doesn't, then either modify the story so it does, or change the genre you'll market it under. Or be a renegade and market the novel in a genre that doesn't fit. Nobody forces a self-published writer to categorize her stories a certain way. It's just that readers will expect certain things from a story depending on how it is categorized, that's all.


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## Heliotrope (Jun 19, 2017)

And I still stand by my original post... it must serve the plot. 

I don't give two hoots what your world is. What is your plot? What is the point of the story? Once you have that figured out then you build your world around it. Why would you spend forever worrying about what sort of animals fill your world and if it is high or low Fantasy if none of it matters to your plot?


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## Michael K. Eidson (Jun 20, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> And I still stand by my original post... it must serve the plot.
> 
> I don't give two hoots what your world is. What is your plot? What is the point of the story? Once you have that figured out then you build your world around it. Why would you spend forever worrying about what sort of animals fill your world and if it is high or low Fantasy if none of it matters to your plot?



Spoken like a true plotter. 

Some of us _enjoy_ world building. I started keeping notes on my invented world settings (yes, plural) back in the 70s. I have notes on populations, flora, fauna, local holidays/festivals, landmarks, politics, history, etc. I did this because it was _fun_ for me.

Now I have these rich settings that I can take advantage of in my stories. There were still some bits I had to flesh out for my WIP, and some things I rethought about my settings, but having all this info helped me define my story's plot in a way I wouldn't have done in a vacuum.


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## Aurora (Jun 20, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> And I still stand by my original post... it must serve the plot.
> 
> I don't give two hoots what your world is. What is your plot? What is the point of the story? Once you have that figured out then you build your world around it. Why would you spend forever worrying about what sort of animals fill your world and if it is high or low Fantasy if none of it matters to your plot?


Good point. Some of us enjoy that? Yes. It helps to bring the world alive when I write, which serves the reader. Fantasy books are well known for their world building so taking the time to create something detailed serves a purpose further than having fun. For me, it's been valuable because my books are set in one world that is locked down in my head. So it's not all fruitless.


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