# Signpost or Billboard?



## BWFoster78 (Jun 20, 2013)

You've all probably heard the old adage that goes something like: If you have a shotgun in the first scene, you need to use it in the last.  And, if you use a shotgun in the last scene, it needs to appear in the first.

There are ways, however, to emphasize or minimize the appearance of said shotgun.

If you mention it in passing as a setting detail, putting up a signpost that can be easily overlooked if you will, the reader is likely to forget about it.  If you go on about it and connect the character's emotions to it, sorta like putting up a huge billboard with flashing lights, it will stand out in the reader's memory.

The question is:

What is the author's responsibility when it comes to laying the foundation for plot developments, character actions, etc.?


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## Ankari (Jun 20, 2013)

As a rule of thumb, I'd go with the signpost. The question of what to use falls on plausibility. If, use the shotgun example, we're talking about fairies in a _My Little Ponies_ setting, and suddenly at the end one crazy fairy threatens the pink perfection of the world with the shotgun, you need to use the billboard method.

PS:I have not idea if my example makes sense. I'm not a Brony.


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## Guru Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

As far as responsibility of the author goes... i think the hints need to be there, so that the reader CAN look back and say "oh, yes, I should have seen that coming."

But it is the responsibility of the reader to make the connection.


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## Steerpike (Jun 20, 2013)

Signpost. 

I don't think it matters much if the reader remembers it. Some will, and some won't. The key is that when the reveal is made, it should come to the reader's mind if they haven't remembered it all along. As Guru Coyote says, as long as they can go back and say "Oh, yeah, I remember that," you're fine. 

Huge billboards irritate me because they makes things too predictable and insult the intelligence of the reader. 

The best writers of stories that have these kinds of placements of things that come to be important later typically mention them once, often in passing, often in a way that actually minimizes things so that it doesn't leap out to the reader, but where the reader, at the final moment, says "ah...." as the realization of what is going on dawns.


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## A. E. Lowan (Jun 20, 2013)

I agree with the others.  I prefer a more delicate touch than the billboard, as both a writer and as a reader.  I do think a writer who feels that their readers need something as obvious as the billboard to foreshadow events does not think highly of their readers abilities to comprehend their immortal prose.


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## SeverinR (Jun 20, 2013)

I think the billboard could be misleading, to throw off the reader. Slight of hand, place a small signpost and a neon flashing billboard, then make the billboard something small, but the signpost something major.


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## Devor (Jun 20, 2013)

I voted signpost.  But it all depends.  If there's a shotgun on the table, your MC isn't going to be ignoring it.  And neither is the reader.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 20, 2013)

I think the question is much easier when we're talking about props.  If we translate the argument to character development, does the same hold true?

I may feel that by trait A and trait B and hinting at motivation C, it clearly establishes his tendency to do act D.  A reader may interpret the traits and the motivations differently, and thus feel blindsided by the act.  On the other hand, I don't wish to make the astute reader feel that I'm hitting him over the head.


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## Steerpike (Jun 20, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I may feel that by trait A and trait B and hinting at motivation C, it clearly establishes his tendency to do act D.  A reader may interpret the traits and the motivations differently, and thus feel blindsided by the act.  On the other hand, I don't wish to make the astute reader feel that I'm hitting him over the head.



Depending on the circumstance, this is a situation where 'telling' (used with care) can provide some help. In other words, when reader A and reader B might interpret a trait differently, you essentially tell the reader through internal monologue or whatever mechanism appeals to you how the trait leads to the act.


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## Penpilot (Jun 20, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I think the question is much easier when we're talking about props.  If we translate the argument to character development, does the same hold true?



I might be answering this wrong, so let me know if I'm off he rails.

I look at character development as a form of an argument. Given a character with a personality P, a history H, and a course of action/thinking A, if W, X, and Y happen to them, then it make sense they'll end up changing their course of action/thinking to Z. Of course they may still stick to A. Make both options or more viable and you'll keep your reader guessing. 

So to me sometimes it can be a billboard and other times a signpost. It depends on what you want to do. There can be a build up. Some signposts followed by a big friggen billboard. Or you can hammer at the character and reader with billboard after billboard, but have the character fail to see or pay attention until they come to that final billboard where they finally have to choose. Look at Draco Malfoy from Harry Potter. Throughout the series he's given key moments where he can stand up and do something good, the audience wants him to do good, but he always fails to stand up. This is a nice contrast to Harry who always stands up and does good when he's call to do so.


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## Steerpike (Jun 20, 2013)

This got me thinking about a book I recently finished. The story involves the kidnapping of a mother and child, only what the reader doesn't know until she figures it out or gets to the reveal is that the kidnapping was staged and the mother and child fled the home purposefully.

There were about half a dozen clues, maybe more. I got most of them as I was reading, and missed two or three. None of the clues were given special treatment. They were all bits of description provided with no more of less emphasis than anything else. For example, one of the clue that I missed was when the main character was in the child's bedroom. He notes (seemingly in passing) that the child's bed is covered with brand new stuffed animals. It turns out later that the reason there are a bunch of new animals there is the child packed her old, ratty stuffed animals that she'd had forever. She knew she was leaving and packed them up.

I missed that clue. When it became part of the reveal, my reaction was "Ah, that makes sense." If I had figured it out when I came across the clue, that would have been fine. I would have been pleased that I caught on. In fact, I did figure things out before the reveal, and I was happy to be proved right.

If the author had used a giant billboard, saying "HEY, NEW ANIMALS! WHY ARE THEY NEW? WHY DON'T THEY LOOK PLAYED WITH? HINT! HINT! HINT!" I not only would have been annoyed and felt like my intelligence was insulted, but I would have been robbed of the pleasure of having figured things out without being beat over the head.


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## Devor (Jun 20, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I may feel that by trait A and trait B and hinting at motivation C, it clearly establishes his tendency to do act D.  A reader may interpret the traits and the motivations differently, and thus feel blindsided by the act.  On the other hand, I don't wish to make the astute reader feel that I'm hitting him over the head.



I don't really understand the question.

A lot of plot subtly is about setting up big reveals or big surprises.  Once you drop the surprise factor, you end up with entirely different situations.

I want to answer that I've been an advocate of _show, then tell_, then show some more.  But really I'm too confused to know if that answers the question.


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## Guru Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

I think a billborard works best when it's actually not one. When the writer set up an obvious course of action/development, only to later twist the expectations. The result must follow logically from the billboard, but still be unexpected. The stronger the initial expectation is, the more unexpected the twist will be.


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## ThinkerX (Jun 21, 2013)

A lot of it depends on the length of the story.  

Short story, you have to go for a surprise ending most of the time, so you take the 'signpost' route.  Anything more than that, and A) it ruins the surprise (and the story) and B) you run out of room.  The billboard route is possible, but difficult to pull off.

Novel, you can go the billboard route.  You can plainly establish whats what at the get go, and much of the story deals with getting there.  The signpost bit is still an option, though.  Or you can do both.

Novella's (as I seem fated to write)...depending on what else is involved, you can go either way.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 21, 2013)

> I look at character development as a form of an argument. Given a character with a personality P, a history H, and a course of action/thinking A, if W, X, and Y happen to them, then it make sense they'll end up changing their course of action/thinking to Z. Of course they may still stick to A. Make both options or more viable and you'll keep your reader guessing.



I think the problem lies in: Will the reader get that P + H + A = W, X, or Y?  And, more to the point, is it the author's responsibility to make sure that the reader does understand the equation?

Stated another way: As long as the equation exists and is possible to be inferred, what is the author's responsibility to help the reader understand how he got his answer?


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 21, 2013)

> If the author had used a giant billboard, saying "HEY, NEW ANIMALS! WHY ARE THEY NEW? WHY DON'T THEY LOOK PLAYED WITH? HINT! HINT! HINT!" I not only would have been annoyed and felt like my intelligence was insulted, but I would have been robbed of the pleasure of having figured things out without being beat over the head.



Excellent example.  It's helping me refine my question.

I guess I'm not asking as much about how much the author presents the clues but whether the big reveal at the end is needed.  For a mystery or thriller like you described, obviously it is.  For epic fantasy, do you need to describe to the reader how you got from point A to point B?


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 21, 2013)

> A lot of plot subtly is about setting up big reveals or big surprises. Once you drop the surprise factor, you end up with entirely different situations.



I'm not really talking about big reveals like the one Steerpike brought up as much as I am normal plot and character development.  For example: two guys are good friends.  One betrays the other, leading to conflict.  How big of an indication should you give to the reason behind the betrayal?

On one hand, you don't want the reader to be blindsided.  You don't want the reaction to be, "Hey, that doesn't fit the character at all.  He's otherwise portrayed as the perfect friend."

On the other, I'm not sure it's appropriate or necessary to telegraph every motivation.

I tend to thing that laying the groundwork for the betrayal is adequate.  Show the character envious of a certain aspect of his friend.  Show him having a characteristic that makes betrayal reasonable.  Then show the betrayal.

The problem is that a lot of readers, if I'm being subtle, may not pick up on envy + characteristic = betrayal.  I'm trying to weight "Resist the Urge to Explain" versus clarity.

EDIT: Note, the betrayal itself isn't meant to be a big reveal as the character could be shown clearly having thoughts of the action before he does it.  I'm specifically addressing how the motivation for the betrayal may be a surprise.


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## Devor (Jun 21, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> For example: two guys are good friends.  One betrays the other, leading to conflict.  How big of an indication should you give to the reason behind the betrayal?



I think the tendency is to still treat it like a big reveal and drop signposts instead of billboards.  I don't think that needs to be the case.  Two people can have a fight which steadily escalates until someone throws a punch.  Not everything needs to be a surprise to be powerful.  I think it's best to use a good mix of techniques throughout.

A good surprise is powerful, though, so still use them.




> The problem is that a lot of readers, if I'm being subtle, may not pick up on envy + characteristic = betrayal. I'm trying to weight "Resist the Urge to Explain" versus clarity.



I think it's better to underexplain, then go back and fix it when your beta readers call it out, then it is to overexplain and then have to cut later.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 21, 2013)

> then go back and fix it when your beta readers call it out



Even with a beta reader call out, I'm not sure "fixing it" is justified.

My theory is that there are three types of readers when it comes to situations like this:

1. A lot of readers aren't going to pay any attention to this kind of thing one way or the other.  They'll go along with however you present the characters without any question unless you do something that clearly contradicts what you've established.  For this type, you have to make a pretty blatant mistake in order for them to notice it.  On the other side of things, they're also unlikely to notice, except perhaps purely on a subliminal level, the effort you put into subtly setting up the conflict.

2. Some readers are going to completely get what you did.  They'll marvel at how subtle and complex your characters are because of the deftness of the way you handled it.  I don't think many readers fit this category.

3. Some readers will interpret something you wrote differently than you intended.  These readers, I think, can be broken into two categories:

A. Some of those will adjust their opinion of your character based on the new information and move on.

B. Some of those will get annoyed because they'll see the new information as contradictory.

I hate to adjust what my story simply to meet the desire of a subset of one type of reader.  If it were a clear mistake, that would be one thing.  Since I feel that, in this case, the problem lies with a subjective interpretation on the part of the reader, I'm not sure a revision to make it more clear would be justified.

That's kind of the crux of the whole question: To what lengths should an author go to make sure he's not misunderstood?


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## Steerpike (Jun 21, 2013)

I don't favor doing anything under the assumption that you're so clever or subtle, and your readership so dimwitted, that you need to hammer at them or they won't get what you're saying (I realize that's not that you are saying, BWFoster, I'm just making a generalized statement).

There are always going to be some who don't get it, I suppose, but I think you're much better off catering to the more astute, intelligent readership. There are a hell of a lot more of those than authors seem to think.

In other words, I'd completely disregard readers in category 3(b). They're a small minority, and changing the work for their benefit can harm the work and at the very least detracts from it from the viewpoint of your other readers.


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## psychotick (Jun 21, 2013)

Hi,

In my view it depends on what you're trying to convey to the reader. As a reader I'd be peeved if at the end of the book the shotgun comes out and there was never any indication that there was one. It would seem a deus ex machina ending and I don't really want that. So I think you need to foreshadow it in some way.

I'd go for the hints and few references approach if the intent is for the shotgun to be whipped out at the end as some sort of surprise. But I'd use the heavy flagging of the shotgun approach if the point is not for the shotgun's appearance to be a surprise but rather a meaningful part of storyline where things have been building up to My Little Pony getting pelleted for some time.

And as the writer its your responsibility I suppose to make sure that it all works well. That you haven't killed the surprise by overflagging the shotgun early on, or spoiled the emotional angst of the shotgun by underflagging it previously.

Cheers, Greg.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 21, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> I don't favor doing anything under the assumption that you're so clever or subtle, and your readership so dimwitted, that you need to hammer at them or they won't get what you're saying (I realize that's not that you are saying, BWFoster, I'm just making a generalized statement).
> 
> There are always going to be some who don't get it, I suppose, but I think you're much better off catering to the more astute, intelligent readership. There are a hell of a lot more of those than authors seem to think.
> 
> In other words, I'd completely disregard readers in category 3(b). They're a small minority, and changing the work for their benefit can harm the work and at the very least detracts from it from the viewpoint of your other readers.



I agree completely.

The problem is that my inclination when someone points out a "problem" is to fix it.  Then, I step back a second and say, "Does this really need fixing?"  If I come to a conclusion that it doesn't, sometimes a little doubt creeps in that says, "Maybe you're wrong and failing to fix it will completely ruin the book."

Discussions like this one discussing ideal writing philosophies really help.

Thanks!

Brian


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## Guru Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

Sometimes, when a "Does it need fixing" doubt starts to creep in... what I do is look at the part in question and think about how I could change it so that the 'problematic' part no longer is there..
That is a bit like using tools like Pro Writing Aid. The actual fix is not it suggests, but by changind my writing so that it no longer complains... I've often achieved a new level of clarity.

Maybe what that boils down to is: take the reported issue as a hint that *somethig* if off. But fixing the reported issue is sometimes not the solution... it might be something else.


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## Penpilot (Jun 21, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I think the problem lies in: Will the reader get that P + H + A = W, X, or Y?  And, more to the point, is it the author's responsibility to make sure that the reader does understand the equation?
> 
> Stated another way: As long as the equation exists and is possible to be inferred, what is the author's responsibility to help the reader understand how he got his answer?



Ah... Ok... You can't hold the reader's hand. They have to do some work too. I try to hide the parts of the equation in plain sight. I would probably never write something like "There was a gun on the mantle." I would mix mentioning the gun among mentioning other things in the room that may or may not be important. As for how this would work with character development, it's kind of the same thing. Hide it among the details of the character. I try to reinforce the existence of these parts subtly throughout the story.

As for the reader adding it all up, at the turning point, sometimes, but not always, I like to make a small callback to one or two of the key parts to the equation, reminding the reader of some of the reasons for the conclusion, but regardless of that, I always try to acknowledge the conclusion in some way. If the reader doesn't understand how the answer was derived after you've shown them the parts of the equation in a fair manner, then they weren't paying attention enough. It's on them. But acknowledging the conclusion lets the reader proceed on firm footing even if they don't know how they got to where they were. 



BWFoster78 said:


> The problem is that my inclination when someone points out a "problem" is to fix it.  Then, I step back a second and say, "Does this really need fixing?"  If I come to a conclusion that it doesn't, sometimes a little doubt creeps in that says, "Maybe you're wrong and failing to fix it will completely ruin the book."



For me, I always bet on myself if I'm unsure of if a piece of advice is correct or not. Sometimes it backfires in a big way, but that mistake will probably never be made again. It's better to flop on your own and learn a lesson rather than proceed blindly and succeed without understanding.

Part of it is about developing your own instincts and learning when to trust yourself. When a critique points something out, most times I aware of the possible problem, and they're just reaffirming my suspicions. When something I'm not aware of gets pointed out, I have one of three reactions. One is like a light switch turning on and I immediately know they're right. The second reaction is I know they're wrong. The third is the middle ground, and when I can't really decide if they're right or wrong after a long think on it, then I default to me being right.


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## Feo Takahari (Jun 21, 2013)

I've noticed that when I put up one signpost, a lot of readers miss it, and consequently don't get what the hell happens in the ending. When I put up four or five, none very large, they're likely to notice at least one, and that gives them enough of a grip to at least understand what's going on.


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## Weaver (Jun 21, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> I've noticed that when I put up one signpost, a lot of readers miss it, and consequently don't get what the hell happens in the ending. When I put up four or five, none very large, they're likely to notice at least one, and that gives them enough of a grip to at least understand what's going on.



Lucky you.  I've had stories where I all but hit the reader over the head with several signposts and they still didn't get it.


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## Xaysai (Jun 22, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Even with a beta reader call out, I'm not sure "fixing it" is justified.
> 
> My theory is that there are three types of readers when it comes to situations like this:
> 
> ...



Wow, this is a great point which has a ton of real world application for me.

stick with me while I make a point which I hope is relevant.

I work in sales consulting, and 99% of my job is training and motivating a sales force numbering in the thousands, and ranging from entry level to senior management. This means teaching entry level "client facing" employees how to sell, and those who supervise the entry level employees how to maintain training, create excitement and engagement surrounding a rather mundane job, how to recognize top performers and what a conversation should look like with those who can't or won't sell.

Because I deal with so many different levels within the organization, and because I deal with every possible type of employee along the spectrums of educational or socio-economical backgrounds, and differing motivation, aptitude, morale and engagement levels, etc., I have to put a tremendous amount of thought into how I communicate with every single person I work with so they get the greatest benefit from it.

Over time, it's become easy for me to pick up on what someone needs from me to have a productive and successful interaction, because they are sitting in front of me and I can judge by their facial expression, body language, tone, focus, engagement, as well as verbal cues. If I need to dig deeper to find out what this person needs from me to be happy and/or successful, I'm armed with hundreds of different clever questions to ask which will give me the information I need without them even knowing that I am mining them for data.

I've never thought about this before, but as an author, you don't have that luxury. It's like you are giving a presentation and people either take it or leave it based on their own personal preference and you never know the difference, and I've never thought about how scary that is.

During my persuasive arguments instruction, I always advise people to preempt questions, comments or concerns that any dissenters might have BEFORE giving the dissenter a chance to raise them.

As such, I almost wonder if you have to layer the signposts: "super subtle" for the astute reader, "subtle" for the average reader and "not so subtle" for the person who might not get it, in an attempt to proactively cater to many different readers and hope that your intelligent readers can appreciate the "super subtle" and "subtle" cues enough to not be insulted by knocking them over the head with the "no so subtle" cues for the sake of the people who can't put two and two together.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 23, 2013)

> As such, I almost wonder if you have to layer the signposts: "super subtle" for the astute reader, "subtle" for the average reader and "not so subtle" for the person who might not get it, in an attempt to proactively cater to many different readers and hope that your intelligent readers can appreciate the "super subtle" and "subtle" cues enough to not be insulted by knocking them over the head with the "no so subtle" cues for the sake of the people who can't put two and two together.



The problem is that it's not possible to do this without adding more scenes (or at least expanding existing scenes) and more words.  What's more important: Making sure that some readers won't miss a minor point or keeping your pace/writing tight?  I tend to go with the latter.


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## Zero Angel (Jun 23, 2013)

I don't think you should worry about people that assume something wrong and get annoyed with you, although you should definitely go back and make sure you're not misrepresenting your character(s)/plot. You really can't please everyone, you know?

On the other hand, many people don't get subtleties and have a hard time following complex plots, but still stick along for the ride. I'm starting to think that this is a large portion of consumers with how obvious the billboards are in most modern media. Anything you can do to help them (without being an info dump of Dumbeldore proportions) would probably be worth it. As in, after the reveal or after you think everybody should have figured out the reveal. 

The shotgun example along with "tight writing" is one reason why most things you watch on TV or on the movies is so predictable however. If they're taking the time to mention it, it is going to come back in the last act. 

One thing I think people that choose signposts do that they shouldn't, and I'm probably guilty of this as well, is to use too many signposts. Very recently this ruined the last Batman movie for me. By the first signpost I was going, well that's going to come into play later. By the second signpost I said, that's still not ready for resolution yet? And by the third signpost I was flipping out, "OH COME ON! THIS IS JUST BAD WRITING!"


Spoiler: Batman



How many times were they going to mention the bloody autopilot?


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## A. E. Lowan (Jun 27, 2013)

Personally, I'm a fan of both the signpost and the red herring, used in tandem.  After all, most of our narrators are unreliable, and people, fictional or otherwise, will notice many things - not all of them will point them in the right direction.  We see nothing wrong with making a reader work a little.  If the reader is engaged enough to put out effort in trying to figure out what is really happening, then they will keep turning pages.


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## Sheriff Woody (Jun 27, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> You've all probably heard the old adage that goes something like: If you have a shotgun in the first scene, you need to use it in the last.  And, if you use a shotgun in the last scene, it needs to appear in the first.
> 
> There are ways, however, to emphasize or minimize the appearance of said shotgun.
> 
> ...



If you pay something off later on, it needs to appear earlier in the story - and have a function that relates to its initial appearance. 

If you introduce something that is clearly not being used at the time, the reader will deduce that it must have some use later on, and this can give away your pay-off. 

To camouflage this, give the item in question a purpose in the scene in which it first appears. This way, the reader will remember the item, but not assume it will show up later because it already served one purpose. They won't even know it's a set-up for a later pay-off. 

The other night, I watched an animated movie called Cloudy With A Chance of Meatballs. This movie is an absolute masterclass in set-ups and pay-offs. I definitely recommend it. So many jokes that you think were through pop up later on. It's fantastic.


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## Trick (Jun 28, 2013)

I voted signpost but largely because billboards repulse me. Why not use a poster board? If your twist or surprise is somewhat confusing without explanation, even to intelligent friends and family who read it before publication, then less subtle hints are needed. But just because some readers don't put the effort forth doesn't mean you need a forty foot glowing sign on Main Street saying, "LOOK, A SHOTGUN!!!!!"

I think this all depends on the level of complexity. Ask yourself, "How long did it take me to come up with this twist (or character development)?" and "How smart am I, really?" 

If it just popped into your head and you're not an evil mastermind then a signpost should do. If, on the other hand, you're a registered genius and it tooks weeks of plotting and outlining to iron out your perfect twist/surprise then perhaps you need a billboard, if a poorly lit one.

Sidenote: As long as you don't drop hints and subtle connections a hundred times and then never resolve them whatsoever, I'll read your book and thank you for sharing your work. I recently read a Detective/Mystery that had two interwoven plot lines and only resolved one.... no sequel to follow either. I nearly vomitted in disgust and rage.


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## Zero Angel (Jun 29, 2013)

Trick said:


> I voted signpost but largely because billboards repulse me. Why not use a poster board? If your twist or surprise is somewhat confusing without explanation, even to intelligent friends and family who read it before publication, then less subtle hints are needed. But just because some readers don't put the effort forth doesn't mean you need a forty foot glowing sign on Main Street saying, "LOOK, A SHOTGUN!!!!!"
> 
> I think this all depends on the level of complexity. Ask yourself, "How long did it take me to come up with this twist (or character development)?" and "How smart am I, really?"
> 
> ...



I regularly get a "surprised by the ending" response from readers. Although people are surprised, I think it's pretty well established and obvious on a second read-through. 

That being said, I remember one of my beta readers read it and said it came out of left field and I should include more to make it less surprising, then when they read the final version of it they said, "I'm glad you made that more subtle because it was a little obvious before" 

To me, one of the best things about reading a book a second or third time through is picking up on the little things that you may have missed before. It doesn't have to be surprise endings, but even just a look one of the characters gave or a brief action overlooked. A billboard isn't missed by any but the least perceptive and saps some of the joy from a second or third read-through.


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