# Have you been impacted by the Great Recession?



## Black Dragon (Sep 3, 2011)

Here in the United States we're in the midst of a seemingly endless recession.  Locally, people are losing their jobs and it is next to impossible to find employment.  The housing market is a catastrophe.

The situation appears to be getting worse, not better.  I've been spared from this disaster, but I have family and friends who are suffering.

How is the situation in your part of the world?  Are you seeing the effects of this Great Recession?


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## Amanita (Sep 3, 2011)

I'm sorry about your friends and family and the others who are suffering from the recession around you. I know you don't get much support from the government in such situations and hope that you'll find a way to get through this.

Here, the economy is doing quite well as far as I know and finding jobs isn't that much of a problem, but everyone is worried by the Euro-crisis. No one really understands what's going on and what consequences those decisions might have, and I'm afraid, the politicians don't know either. 
That's not only an economical but also a political problem because more and more rights are being transfered to the EU and it seems as if the elected parliaments and politicians will lose influence to no one really knows whom. Many people in various countries are worried that their interests won't be respected and it's not really sure what can be believed and what can't.
Therefore many people, my father included, worry that the money at the bank will soon be worth less and many people try to invest in things like gold or houses.


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## grahamguitarman (Sep 3, 2011)

Here in the UK the recession is certainly hitting the creative community, every artist I speak to is finding times hard.  Even artists / galleries with an established reputation are finding it hard to make ends meet.   

I don't think things have got as bad as they are in America yet, but then we have a welfare state that cushions us from the worst of the recession.  I just hope things turn around soon!


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## Philip Overby (Sep 3, 2011)

In Japan we have the disaster looming over our heads at all times and the economy was already suffering even before that.  It seems like every couple of months there is something we're not supposed to eat.  It was spinach, then milk, and now beef.  So all these industries are suffering because people are so afraid to eat certain things.  So that trickles down.  Luckily, I teach English so there are always jobs in regards to that even though the bubble popped over here long ago.  One thing I like about teaching is that it's one of those jobs like the medical industry where you'll always be able to get jobs.  As long as people keep having kids there will be education, so that gives me a semblance of job security although I recognize that nothing is written in stone.


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## Kelise (Sep 3, 2011)

In Australia my mother thinks everything's about to get a lot worse. We weren't hit too hard at all when it first happened, and most people are happy (who buy overseas) because it's so cheap to buy things from America at the moment. Though the gov is thinking of bringing in a tax on things we buy overseas, which will stuff everything up, but I think that's a different thing all together.

A co-worker lost her job in Melbourne and had to move back home to live with her parents and get a job here because of the recession. Jobs where I live are always in abundance since we live so 'rurally' and no one wants to live here, we're made up mostly of people who work (or married to those) in the army. My father was posted here for an airline about 25 years ago, and has never moved.

Anyhow, Mum thinks it'll be a chain reaction. Because our things will be too expensive for America to import, that will go down. Other areas of Australia will be effected, which will effect all of Australia. Other people will lose their jobs and it'll have a knock on effect.

Same would be said for all parts of the world really, though.


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## pskelding (Sep 3, 2011)

Much like Phil as long as people in China need to learn English I have a job.  I have worked hard to become the teaching manager of a school so my job is relatively secure vs that of a normal foreign teacher.  I also work for a company that does vocational teaching.  The company is growing horizontally so it is a more secure company to work for.  

On the bad side, I want to apologize to the non-Americans here, our president, congress, Wall Street, Too Big Too Fail Banks, and ponzi scheme that is the US financial system and economy has hurt almost every country on the planet either directly or indirectly.  They have personally cost my family money which is invested in the Hong Kong stock market as a hedge against inflation because China does not have good cash deposit or interest rates at the banks.  The collapse is coming and it's probably much nearer than any of us know.  

The best part is I will be alive to see the "Great Reset" and hopefully a US uprising and overthrow of the government.


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## mythique890 (Sep 4, 2011)

My dad is a Realtor, so the housing market crash here in the U.S. hit them really, really hard.  As for me, I've been living as a poor married college student since 2006, when things were still good.  I finished the student part, but my husband is still in school, so even though it's been five years, not much has changed.  
We went through a really hard time from the beginning of 2009-May of this year because neither of us could get a decent job.
Recently we moved from Ohio to Utah though, and jobs seem to be easier to come by here.  At least, entry-level or labor type jobs (which is where we are anyway).  I'm hoping that things will be better when the husband graduates in 2013.  Of course, he's trying to get into the video game industry, so we'll see.


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## Chilari (Sep 5, 2011)

When the recession hit, the construction industry was one of the worst hit in the UK. My dad works in that and was lucky not to be made redundant like some of his colleages, but he did get downgraded from a cubicle to a desk-share. The problem for me is that the construction industry funds archaeology - nobody can build anything without an archaeological survey being done first, and an excavation if necessary. So with no construction, there's no archaeology, cutting out one of the routes I could have taken career wise - I'm about to graduate with a Masters Degree. The other route I was considering was academia, but with massive funding cuts to "arts" subjects (though archaeology really spans the divide between arts and sciences), I simply can't get on a funded PhD at the moment, there are too few of them available. So instead I'm starting my own business, with my parents supporting me until the business is up and running. And in the mean time, my wedding gets put back again until we can afford it and to move to a place of our own.


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## Justin Miller (Sep 6, 2011)

*When you are poor you don't know what the fuss is about.*

As the title states, heh. Actually, I live in the Northern VA area and it seems as if they are getting an after affect of the recession. It didn't have as large of an affect on the area where I live mainly because I am surrounded by all the people who do not have job risks... Senators. I don't make enough money to care myself, as long as I have my job I am happy, but I have seen it affect my family and friends, States like Maine (where my family lives) rely on tourism to keep the state funded, less tourism... less finding, so they are being hit pretty hard.


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## Donny Bruso (Sep 6, 2011)

Personally I have been remarkably unaffected by it financially. As I'm sure some of you know from other posts, I'm a serving member of the US military, and with our out of control leadership determined to spread democracy around the world like cheap fertilizer instead of fixing our own problems, my job itself is more or less safe.

However, from that position I've seen this recession hurt others financially, and then seen their lives completely fall apart from that point on. There are times when I feel guilty for being 'part of the system' that is essentially sending the world to hell in a handbasket while taking care of itself. I have family who are struggling to keep their heads above water, and I help them as much as I can...

As far as the US uprising pskelding mentioned, I'm of two minds about it. As myself, devoid of any other responsibilities, I would wholeheartedly support any punishment anyone could dream up for the corrupt bastards who have ruined everything. However, as a soldier who is sworn to defend that corrupt entity, I would hate to see it happen because I would be called on to stop it, causing a major moral dilemma.


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## Misusscarlet (Sep 8, 2011)

I lived in California for all of my life and let me tell you that state is the worst place to be. It's not even worth touring or visiting. Back in 2005 that's when the economy hit my family. My dad was a self-employed contractor and unfortunately construction gets hit first and recovers last. My family lost our house I had to quit college and move two states just to get a job even with the job I have I still only just get by. That's living and supporting myself as well. All this talk of recovery going on? Bunch of gobbledeegook. No such thing. I also hate the fact that every one is complaining about our downgraded credit score. It's our fault we did it we have to deal with it. I'm hoping with the book I am writing I can get my parents out of the poor house.


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## HÃ«radÃ¯n (Sep 8, 2011)

I joined the military for lack of jobs locally. I will have to taken an extended leave of absence beginning jan 10. I would like to take this post to thank the asshats who got us into this mess THANK YOU WALL STREET BOUGHT POLITICIANS IN DC YOU CAN ALL GO GET ******. I would also like to thank ex-pres bush for is damnable tax cuts for the super rich and current pres obama for extending them because the rich need sooooooooooooooo much more money, and where what about everyone else? "who cares," said the random republican, "lets cut medicare medicaid social security and anything else that helps the poor!!!" to which obama says in a very timid voice "perhaps we can keep medicare?" and the republican responds with "fine we cut all those plus increase taxes on the poor 1000000000000 percent! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA" I hate that the politicians are bought by wall street and other corporations..... BLOODY MONEY CHANGERS!


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## Lord Darkstorm (Sep 8, 2011)

Such anger and hatred... 

I find it strange that people tend to ignore history.  The great depression in america tried to spend their way out of it.  The result was extended depression.  Japan tried the same (more recently) and that didn't seem to help either.  Why do we trust the people best at lying to solve problems when their only real skill is lying?  How do you know when a politician is lying?  Their lips are moving.  

Communism doesn't work, it's been tried, and failed over and over.  Socialism, pretty much the same.  Why?  If you tell someone that no matter who you are, what you can do, you will get the same as everyone else...you remove the drive to improve and do better.  Why write a novel if you don't expect at some point to publish it, and make money off of it??  Ignorance aside, the only reason to strive to improve and do better is to improve our own situation.   Why does anyone actually still believe that the govt has the answers to anything?  Time after time they do dumb things that make things worse.  "Let's spend a 800billion dollars to make everything better."  Of which most of it went to bail out states that had overspent as well and were all in serious trouble.   If you look at the money spent on the few jobs created, and worked the actual numbers, they could have paid all those people a few hundred thousand each to not work and we would have spent less money.

Blame banks, and blame capitalism.  But if you look at where jobs come from, it isn't the government.  While they can create a job, it takes 10 plus higher paid people to support each government worker.  Businesses create jobs, not government.  Currently, there are more manufacturing jobs in China than America...Why?  We watch the unions demand more and more of the businesses they are squeezing out of business.  When I was growing up I lived in the south.  Coal minors made the big money.  Coal minors went on strike a couple times a year...more money, more benefits...more, more, more...so what did the people who owned all the mineral rights to that coal do?  Closed down the entire thing and moved to Columbia, South America.  Now all those people who were the 'well to do' were poor.  There weren't any jobs for them, and the union that helped them all loose their jobs?  Packed up and cashed out.  Teachers union are more concerned with their benefits package than teaching kids, and say it's the fault of greedy capitalists.  It's nice to think that the world can all hold hands sing songs and just get along, but if you think I want to bust my behind, get up and go to work, spend evenings learning new technologies so I can keep my job, just to be told I need to pay more because someone else has made crappy choices and I need to pay for them? What's in if for me?  Why am I responsible for all those who don't think, don't plan, and have more kids than they can afford, then demand that I pay more because thy don't have enough.  Is it really wrong for me to say I don't want to pay for someone elses' kids insurance?, or food, or all the things that if it were my kid I would provide?

I'm fortunate that this current economy hasn't had that much of an effect on me.  For some reason consulting is still doing well, despite the lack of sense in government.  If I didn't keep up, and learn the latest technologies, then I would eventually loose my job and not be able to maintain my current life.  So this is a really sore point for me.  I spend quite a bit of time others would spend watching american idol, or some other pointless show, making sure I have a job tomorrow.  Why is it that those who don't are just as deserving of everything I work for without any work?

I feel the same way about writing as I do life in general.  If you don't want to put in the effort to be good enough, then don't.  Don't blame me or anyone else if we are successful at it because we did.  Personal responsibility has been removed form the American society.  Blame someone else seems to be the norm now.  Politicians promise the sun and the moon to those voting for them so they can get elected, but all they do is cater to those who donate the most.  

I really should stay away from any form of political discussion.  I can't stand the way the media has turned everything into a class warfare issue.  I want to be rich.  I'm not there, but I really want so much money I could never spend it all. While this may never happen, I am positive if I ever achieve that dream, I'll leave the US for some place that wont tell me I'm obligated to give most of what I've worked for to someone else because they don't have some thing they want and are too lazy to go do for themselves.

I do know there are a lot of people that have lost their jobs.  I do feel for them, since they want to work, they want to do for themselves.  But if you must lay blame, look at who has made the mess...spent too much money, and then says it's the fault of someone else.  Regulations are killing businesses, we can't drill for oil anywhere just about, they want to kill off coal (more than 50% of energy in America is produced from coal), we can't build a nuclear plant (none in 30 years), and there hasn't been a new gas refinery in just as long.  How can a business manage to hire new people when energy costs are insane.  I paid more than $400 for my electric bill this month.  I could buy a really nice car for that kind of money a month.  If you live in America and want to do something good for the country, throw them all out, and get new people in.  Maybe if we keep throwing them out, the new ones might get the idea and get out of the way so businesses can get back to work and make the economy better.

Sorry for the rant.  I'll shut up now and bite my tongue.


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## HÃ«radÃ¯n (Sep 9, 2011)

Of course I'm angry, my government is being taken over by a bunch of corporate robots, who want nothing more than to tax the middle class out of existence all the while the top 5 percent own more than half of the rest of the 95 percent, does that disparity not infuriate you? I agree that businesses are the job creators but they don't need tax breaks what they need is for people to buy their stuff so they will produce more and hire more people. with the way things are people don't want to spend for fear of what may happen if they lose their jobs and run out of money. so then how do we get people to spend? well, **** if I know.

Unions are a good thing, they are the reason we have minimum wage laws so people are paid a fare wage and 10 year olds don't have to quite school to help the family scrape by. The key to capitalism is education, as is the key to democracy, but fewer and fewer people in the states care enough to educate themselves, THAT is the fundamental problem, we have grown lethargic and ambivalent about our democracy, which allowed congress to pass laws to let corporate donors donate as much as they wanted, which lead them being bought, which lead to this mess we are in now.

tell me, what incentive is there to do good when you feel like all your money is going to stolen by the crooks on the hill?


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## TPushit (Sep 9, 2011)

The situation is tricky.  My family had a very rocky road for the past couple of years, but now we are somewhat stable economically.  I just don't know how I'm going to go to college in the near future.  But anyways, this thread reminds me of a documentary I watched (And a book I am going to read) called _Collapse_.  Has anybody heard of it?


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## Shadoe (Sep 9, 2011)

I know it's popular to blame "the masses" for the mess the US is in. Everybody rags on "entitlements" and the like. I came across a quote the other day:

"When communities come under pressure, they look for scapegoats. It plays into traditional beliefs that someone is responsible for a negative change ... and children are defenseless."

Granted, it was talking about children being denounced as witches by Christian pastors, but the concept is true all over. Whenever something bad happens, people looooove to find a scapegoat, and that scapegoat is usually the weakest members of society. Then you get decent people performing atrocities. Hitler's Germany is a prime example. But looking at today's America is a good one too. We live in a land of plenty. There is enough wealth, enough food, enough medicine, enough everything in this country for every single citizen to live a decent, happy life. But we don't. Instead, more and more people are homeless every day, people starving in the street, people dying from curable diseases, the percentage on welfare increases even while our government allocates less and less into the system. All the while, folks in the middle class, just one step away from poverty, insist we punish the poor even more. As if that was going to cure anything.

And why? Because the poor are the scapegoats of today's America. They are America's weak and defenseless. Somehow, the disadvantaged, uneducated, unwanted, and just plain unlucky people of America are expected to just pick themselves up, brush themselves off, and get to work. If they don't, hey, it's THEIR fault they're poor in the first place. I find this attitude especially discouraging when it comes from Christians, a group that pretends to follow the world's foremost advocate of charity toward one's fellow man.

Nobody has jobs because there are no jobs. Because the jobs are in China and Mexico and Thailand and anywhere that pays a subhuman wage and offers sweatshop conditions. Why do we do that? It's because the guy who made one million dollars last year expects to make two million this year, and if he has to screw America to do it, he will. And has.

I've listened and listened, for the past 20 years about how we need to bolster business, make all the laws favor business, get rid of regulation, give more and more and more to the rich, and then the economy will recover. It isn't recovering, because the guys who drive the economy have nothing to drive it with. The jobs are in China and the people who are supposed to buy what they make are in the US. But what happens then they ship the Chinese televisions to the US and nobody's there to buy them?

Blame the poor all you want, but we've proven over and over that the only way to make an economy recover is to pump money into the people who are willing to spend it. No society prospers if most of its citizens are poor. This is where we're heading, and we'll just keep driving the bus off the cliff until the wealthy and those who feed them realize there's nobody left to buy what they're selling.

And a few points:

Government spending directed at the poor dragged us out of the Great Depression. It put the people to work and jump started the economy. The government gave handouts, sure, but it also created jobs. The systems put in place then kept America going for decades. Once those systems started getting sabotaged, America started sinking again. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is selling you something.

Coal doesn't need to continue. We've polluted enough and it doesn't bring enough power. New nuclear plants are in the works - 24 of them last I heard. The earliest will be online by 2020.


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## Misusscarlet (Sep 9, 2011)

Hmm yea they do use children as scapegouts. First thing any government tries to do is allocate money to education and school when they have the money. When they don't have the money what's the first to go? Schools and education. 1] I don't blame all the teachers all over the world for striking. 2] I do blame them I'm working towards being a teacher, any teacher well worth there salt knows you don't get into education for the money you get into it cause you want to  make a difference to those children's lives. I noticed that it's kind of sad that for someone to qualify as a president they have had to have office positions, such as senator, house, governor, etc. Why don't we scrap that, I'd much rather feel safer if Joe Blow ran for presidency than people that have already been in office and have already played the corruption game.


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## mythique890 (Sep 9, 2011)

Ultimately, it was WWII that ended the Great Depression.  It was manufacturing plants making munitions and selling them overseas for the war.  Those factories ensured everyone made a decent wage and could spend extra.

Of course I'm not suggesting we make the same product, but if companies would STOP outsourcing, it would help.  Manufacturing has gone overseas; the money has followed.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Sep 10, 2011)

There was a professor who had a class that felt that the idea of socialism was a good thing, ie, everyone shares with everyone and all are treated equally.  So the professor told the class that they would try it as a proof to see if the idea actually would work.  Everyone in the class would have the same grade.  All tests would be graded and the average of all those tests would be given to everyone.  

The first test went quite well, those who were avid in studying and doing well did so, and the average was a B for everyone.  Those who did study were not real pleased at getting a B for the hard work they put into the test, since they would have gotten an A if not for the socialistic sharing.  The next test the average was a C-, since those who studied hard felt that if they had to share the same grade as everyone else, then everyone else should put in more effort after that.  From there it was abysmal, and the entire class failed.  It is a problem with any system that fails to reward personal effort.  When you tell those working hard they can never have more than anyone else...THEY STOP!  Those who aren't working at all, are quite content to ride on the backs of everyone else, since they are told they have nothing to worry about, it will be done for you.

I forget the country, but I believe it was Greece, kept making unemployment longer and longer.  From two years, to three, then to four.  The length of time it took for someone to find a job kept taking longer and longer as they extended it.  from 2 years, to three, then to four.  What happened when they moved the unemployment back to two years?  Amazingly, people seemed able to find a job in two years.

It's sooooo nice to believe in the goodness of humanity.  Honestly, as writers, who should take a closer look at people (since we intend to write characters based on them) and see that while it is so nice to believe in the good honest person who will do the right thing just because it's right, human nature says no.  Whenever you give someone a chance to take advantage of another, they will.  Offer someone something for nothing, they will take it and keep taking.  The phrase, "the needy are always needy" is the most accurate statement you will find.  As long as you are going to give those in need what they want, they will continue to need for the rest of their lives.  

I was a contractor for a place that had a state contract. and this was when welfare was finally expiring.  The state asked the company to interview people who now needed to try and find work, so maybe there might be some they could use.  Guess what?  All those people who had been living off welfare (which sometime in the past became 'entitlement') was interviewing for a job.  No, they didn't do much work, but they did show up to the place and pretend so they could get a paycheck.  

It comes to this, if you feel sorry for the poor, fine, give them whatever you want.  Be as gullible as you desire, but must the rest of us pay for that same gullibility?  Must I pay these people forever because you think they are deserving.  Does anyone here know that America tried a version of socialism in the past?  Back before America became America?  Yes, it was tried, and after a few years they saw that as long as someone could get all they wanted by doing nothing, they would.  

I'd just like everyone who feels that it is the job of the government to spread the wealth, to open your own wallet and empty it first.  Give until you feel you have given enough...but leave me out.  Let me decide what charities I want to give to, instead of having the government, whom only pay those who keep voting for them, decide where my money is best used for charity.  I don't work for the good of all, I don't put my time learning how to write, how to develop software, or anything else so someone sitting on their behinds whining about how they don't have this or that can have it.  I do it for my own gain, because I want more.  I'm not running out with a baseball bat beating the poor back into their government (taxpayer) paid for housing to keep them from going out and getting a job, or trying to.  Although, listening to the news, you would think I was. 

I still believe that the number of people willing to do for themselves still outnumber the bums who won't, but if we tell people who are making the 'big money' who we keep being told aren't paying their 'fair share' (is 60% fair?) what will motivate them to keep making that money?  Or to stay in a country that demonizes them as if they have no right to have more than others because they earned it?  There are more laws in America than any of us could probably count.  Laws, regulations, taxes, and other things to strip those who are productive of all they have....and the socialist tell us it isn't enough.  Trust the socialist to have the answer to all our problems.  The world will be a better place if we just trust them with our lives, money, history...

Try reading 1984, and then look again at what you are being told.  Even Harry Potter took a swipe at the "Greater Good" concept that the politicians keep telling us.  

How about this, all those that believe that wealth redistribution is right and correct, pledge to give any money made on your writing to the government so they can help those in need.  Put your money where your mouth is...yours, not mine, not somebody else's, but your own.  When it works, then come back and tell me, I'll consider it.  Till then, stop telling others that they should be happy to have the government take our hard earned money to waste on paying their personal voting block of slaves that have to vote for them to continue their existence. I don't need the government to provide my living for me, and I think the vast majority of Americans don't want them to either.


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## Amanita (Sep 10, 2011)

> It's sooooo nice to believe in the goodness of humanity.



Yes. And the lack thereof prevents the “perfect capitalist world, where everyone gets exactly what they deserve” as well as any communist or socialist society.
There are so many different factors that play into this that a person’s material well-being can’t be reduced to “they worked well” or “they’re lazy.”
Out-sourcing has been mentioned plenty of times here. The Chinese (or Bangladeshi, Vietnamese etc.) women who sew clothes for western companies all day barely earn enough to survive and definitely not enough for proper health care or anything of that sort. They’re forced to do this kind of work because they’re traditional agricultural life style isn’t possible anymore and they’d starve otherwise. 
Is it those people’s fault that they’ve barely got enough to survive? Is it because they’re lazy? 

Only if people in western countries accepted such conditions again, undoing the out-sourcing would become profitable. As soon as corporations are free to only pay as much money as someone’s work “is worth” to them, a combination of misery and hard work is the consequence. That’s why communism has been able to grow in 19th century Europe. 
And not just that. Without regulations, everything that can safe costs is being done. Knowingly selling dangerous products? Plenty of examples and they’re still fighting any attempt to ban anything scientific studies have proven is dangerous. And they do so proudly and talk about it via Twitter. 
Endangering the environment and the people living nearby? Plenty of examples once again, the most famous one is the Bhopal disaster. If it’s more profitable to let people die that’s the way it’s done. And if someone dares to complain they’re told that such complaints are bad for the investment climate.
It’s difficult for me to understand such behavior, maybe this is happening because due to the corporate structure, those who make the decisions are so far away from the impact of those decisions they can ignore them easily. 
Corporate leaders do their job for a few years, often cutting jobs or even leading their company into a merger and receive millions of money for it. That’s where I and many other people don’t feel that they’re “earned” this due to their hard work. 
Hardly anyone begrudges people who’ve become rich due to some brilliant idea of their own their money but in these cases it’s difficult to accept it as fair. 

This means that I have absolutely no trust in private security corporations, private schools and school funding etc. I believe that every nation needs a government that is backed by the people, has to answer to them, is independent from corporate powers and represents it’s people’s interests. Most (all) governments are far from this ideal but this doesn’t mean that isn’t what should be tried to achieve. Anything else has little to do with democracy. 
Such an institution needs money to do their duty and therefore I pay taxes even though they might not always be used the way I think is best. More public influence on the way taxes are used is definitely something that should be considered but in my case, the money that goes to unemployed people isn’t the part that bothers me most. Surely, there are those who exploit the system, but I still prefer this to the situation described above. 
When I’m 45 one day and my employer decides that they don’t need my job anymore, or that somewhere in the world someone else can do it for less money, or if they go bankrupt, I know that I won’t be starving on the street even though other potential employers now think that I’m too old to work for them.

Besides that there's a big difference between "everyone is getting the same amount of money, no matter what they do" and "everyone who earns money pays a percentage of this money to the government which uses it to give less fortunate people enough to survive."


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## Shadoe (Sep 10, 2011)

Amanita said:


> Besides that there's a big difference between "everyone is getting the same amount of money, no matter what they do" and "everyone who earns money pays a percentage of this money to the government which uses it to give less fortunate people enough to survive."


True. Pretending that anything other than "every man for himself" is theft is just plain silly.

First of all, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot has socialism got to do with anything? Why do people always scream "Socialism!" if there's any thought of community in the world? There are plenty of "socialist" organizations in this country and there always have been, and they work wonderfully. We call them fire departments, police, churches, and so forth.

Your example was utter nonsense. If the A and B students were so upset about getting lower grades, why in the world didn't they help the students with the poor grades do better? THAT is the concept behind socialism, not "everybody's actually on their own but gets screwed together." It's also the concept behind the military. And it works very, very well. The only time it doesn't work is when the only ones involved are the greedy and the lazy and both camps point at the other side to lay blame.

You are talking about handouts. Most poeple don't want handouts, they want jobs. They want decent jobs that give them a little self respect and enough to feed their families. We've got a reported 10% unemployment in the US, and the actual number is probably much higher. According to your beliefs, they are all unemployed _only _because they're too lazy to work, and that being the case, we should let them - and their children - starve to death. That's a repeatedly-discredited myth perpetuated by people who are selfish and greedy and are, as I posted before, looking for an easy victim. The fact is, most of the unemployed in the US want to work. They may not all be the country's best and brightest, but they _want _to work and will do what work they can. They don't work because there are No Jobs. There is literally nothing they can do to get a job when there are No Jobs.

When I work, I make big money, and I get taxed accordingly. And I give thousands to charity on top of that. I don't begrudge it, because I make big money. I live quite well, and I don't see why I should spit on the homeless vet looking for a handout. It's not a difficult concept to get. I think anyone who makes more than what I make and thinks they shouldn't pay taxes SHOULD move somewhere else. Seriously. G'wan wit ya! I want them to leave the US. Because when they're gone, we can recreate a US without a ruling elite who blame the poor because they don't have even _more _wealth.

Outsourcing, yes, is our biggest problem. The guy who made a million dollars last year wants to make two million this year and three million the next. So he jacks up his prices and finds cheap labor and materials. The only thing we get out of it is a country less and less able to support itself.  We need jobs, and we need them HERE. Get rid of outsourcing by taxing heavily the companies that do it. Tax imports. Make outsourcing unattractive to the greedy and they'll stop doing it. Restart organizations like those from the New Deal that dragged us out of the last depression. There's plenty that needs doing in this country and plenty of people who want something to do - we need to match those groups up, and we'll get the economy going.

The simple fact is and always has been that a society that has a large percentage of very poor fails. A society that has a large middle class succeeds. When there is a huge gap between the wealthy and the poor, the society fails. History proves this over and over and over. Look at countries even now where there is a large middle class and few on the extreme ends, and you will see a healthy, productive society.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Sep 10, 2011)

I still say a look at history would do wonders.  Roosevelt is the one who brought in the first enactment of socialism, and why is socialism bad?  Because it removes the individual and adds in the whole.  When I want to be a part of a community, that is a choice I make, but socialism doesn't give you the choice, you are a part, and subject to it's choices whether you like them or not.  America was founded as a republic, which isn't a democracy.  As a republic that encourage personal ambition, which included greed, the country rose to the greatest nation on the planet.  Strong sense of country and a deep rooted sense of honor.  Walk around a mall and listen to the kids today...honor, I doubt they could tell you what it meant, and wouldn't understand it if they looked it up.  The entitlement society we have been building is going to fail.  Why are there no jobs?  Probably because those who hire people are afraid to.  The government has accused them of being the evil bad people in the world and aren't paying 'their fair share', and as the class warfare continues, the businesses do what they need to do to survive.  The government is the one causing the doubt, because or leaders, who rarely lead, spend all day demonizing one group or another.  So why should any business take the risk of going out of business to hire more people when the government might decide to place one more regulation, or a new tax, or flat out just change all the rules making them spend most of what they have to try and stay in business.  

Keep believing in the idea that government has all the answers, and when you have one here monitoring every word you type, and censoring what you say, and making sure you are thinking in the appropriate way and well, if they feel you are the right type of person then they might let you write a book, and maybe if they approve of it, you can have it published.  I'd rather not live in that world.  Tax, ration, tax, control, regulate, control...control.  Give them control of everything, and while you might not have the manacles, you will be a slave.  And for those of you who think that there isn't a power grab by the non corporations?  Look at the unions, and the money they poor into campaigns.  Want to talk about greed, I guess most of the news ignored the union attack on a train yard that decided not to use union labor.  The damage to the trains and the grain that was spilled out on the ground while the security guards hid in their shack hoping the wire mesh glass held till the police arrived. Fine example of how unions are befitting mankind.

When get finished rebuilding your utopian society where no one rises above anyone else, and there is no reason to better oneself...I have to wonder where the food will come from?  Since no one will have to work, who will cook the food that no one grew, or serve it, since serving others is a menial position?  Tell you what, write a nice story set in your ideal world...then see if anyone outside of someone like minded would believe it.  Outside of another 1984, you might find some believability issues there.  I certainly wouldn't believe it, and you might discover that you don't believe it either.  If it were true, why are the prisons full?  All those people are just misguided?  Didn't get a proper education?  Weren't given all the things they wanted in life?

I chose to go from poor to well off by working for it.  Many others don't...they choose other means, like crime.  Or better yet a nice government hand out.  Why work if someone else will do it for you?  

Why didn't the kids who studied hard help those who didn't...maybe because the ones who didn't felt that they could sit back and let the achievers do it for them.  Someone wanted a good grade, so they would work hard for it, and carry the rest along.  It's nice to pretend that people are all good and moral and always strive to do the right thing.  A good thing to pretend, but unfortunately, the real world is full of people with flaws...like another discussion, and greed, laziness, self centered, cruel, and so many others I'll not bore everyone with the list.  When you make everyone the same, those who would try and do better will come down to the level of the rest, because there isn't the same sense of achievement when someone else is riding on you back not doing a thing.  Socialism, the form of government that tries to make everyone equal, doesn't work.  Every country that has tried it is floundering in debt, because the number of people willing to support those who are quite happy to enjoy the free ride, are too small to support such a system. For that type of system to work you need the government to brainwash, control, and impose a tight control of everyone to get them to do much of anything.  You can blame evil capitalists...while you complain there aren't enough jobs...which are created by said same evil capitalists.  

Which is it, should we allow people to be individuals and strive to better their own lives?  Or must the world be FORCED to support everyone the government says you have to?  In one you have jobs, in the other you have a society of freeloaders and stagnation.  Try reading more books.  Even fiction has more truth in it than most of the news media today.


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## Shadoe (Sep 11, 2011)

Well... I guess I just don't choose to see the world through the red haze of hate. I'm more Dalai Lama than Hitler. I haven't been infected by Faux News and their compatriots - for which I shall light a candle today in devout thanks. But, hey, you have a good time with that.

On the other hand, I have just gotten a really good idea for a new character in my Chronicles of Terriadar series. I've been looking for a new antagonist.


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## Amanita (Sep 11, 2011)

Come on now, don't take this too far please.
Let's agree to disagree and move back to discussing our writing plans. It would be a shame if we wouldn't be able to do that anymore, because we have different opinions about this.
I've only experienced political discussions getting nasty in chemistry forums till now for some reason, but obviously it can happen to fantasy writers as well.


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## Shadoe (Sep 11, 2011)

I used to work for a national computer network, back in the early days of the internet. We called politics one of the "permanent floating flamewars."


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## Black Dragon (Sep 11, 2011)

Amanita said:


> Let's agree to disagree and move back to discussing our writing plans. It would be a shame if we wouldn't be able to do that anymore, because we have different opinions about this.



I second this.  The last page of posts has some pretty sharp jabs, and that's not what we're about here.  This site is about community first and foremost.

Let's keep this particular thread focused on how the recession is impacting lives.  As for the causes of the recession, let's not go there any further.  We don't need a flame war.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Sep 12, 2011)

I do apologize for not biting my tounge like I should have.  I'll wonder back to the writing discussions which are far more enjoyable.


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## Meg the Healer (Sep 15, 2011)

Though I'm not sure how much of this is really the recessions fault (and not my own personal spending), but I have felt some of the impact of it as well. As someone who works two jobs, I am still amazed that my pocketbook still manages to cross over into the red at times.

Trying to make ends meet in the US is seemingly more difficult each month - but I have to look on the bright side. One - I still have BOTH jobs (regardless of the fact that I wish I had more money come in from both of them). Two - I still have my home and my pets are still alive and healthy - though I am concerned about the cat. And Third - even though the light at the end of the debt tunnel seems to be in a constant state of being completely shut off - I will have at least paid off one major loan by the end of the year.

As much as I hate to say this - for ME - the recession has been a good thing. It's forced me to look at my money, save more money, and really look at "is this _really_ worth buying right now.

I hate going into the red. But I know that things could be so much worse for me right now, too.


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## Fnord (Sep 16, 2011)

Personally, it has been a windfall for me.  

I suddenly feel like an undertaker.


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## Fnord (Sep 16, 2011)

As to the causes of the Recession, it's not any one person or group or political party's fault.  It was the fault of government, it was the fault of opportunistic financiers, it was the fault of central bankers, and it was the fault of the consumers.  It just all came together in a perfect storm of &^%&.

There were a lot of extra-market elements in play and while I could write an entire book on this (and have written thousands of words about it already), the bottom line is that the system of incentives in the economy was distorted.  These were systems created by social engineering policy, they were created by loose monetary policy, they were created by Wall Street magnates with their words in the right ears, and the risk/reward system of capitalism had risk taken out of it and so went the prudence that goes with risk.  

It's ugly and it's not going to get better any time soon--there's too much consumer debt, too much government debt (and not just the U.S.) and there is too much uncertainty in the private sector.


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## Helbrecht (Sep 26, 2011)

Right-winger: "GORRAM GOVERNMENT"
Left-winger: "GORRAM BANKS"
Economist: "GORRAM EVERYONE"
[/thread]

. . . *clears throat*

As for the effects of the Recession on my everyday life, I can't find a job, so I'm relying entirely on savings to put me through college. My family are all working more for less and we're struggling to pay the bills. Looking at the bigger picture, I've found the whole thing to have quite a profound effect on my life.

Mind you, asking my grandmother about it, it's been one big downward spiral where we live since the 1970s.


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## Fnord (Oct 1, 2011)

Definitely "GORRAM EVERYONE".  And on top of that (*waves scythe around menacingly*), most of the economic indicators are pointing to another recession here real soon, if we're not already swinging into it in the 4th quarter.


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## The Blue Lotus (Oct 2, 2011)

Who has not been effected would prolly make for a shorter list of posters! 
I can't think of anyone who has not been hit in some way. 
The prices for food have gone up, gas, etc etc. Don't get me started on how horrid I think the GOv is, or for that matter the banks. 

I have come to realize that there are two types of people in this country There are the TOO BIG TO FAIL and the TOO SMALL TO CARE ABOUT. 

It is so sad.

Before this nightmare I had a serious case of rose colored glasses, While my country was not perfect it was still mine and I belived in it. 
Now, To be honest I have thought about moving out of the country. 

As former Military, that breaks my heart. But I can not stand to see what we are becoming. =(


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## Shadoe (Oct 2, 2011)

I totally agree! I'm ex-military from a military family and i married into a military family. Mow I'm trying to figure out how I can finagle a move to Australia. I just can's stand watching the death spiral America seems to be involved in. It's just not my America anymore.


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## Amanita (Oct 2, 2011)

I'm afraid that it isn't much better elsewhere. At least not in Europe. I don't know about Australia. 
This 





> There are the TOO BIG TO FAIL and the TOO SMALL TO CARE ABOUT


 totally applies here as well.
Lobbying groups decide what's happening in the country in question and the German governemnts do their best to destroy the educational system to create "people who easily adapt to the demands of the market" instead of "people who are able to think for themselves". 
So bad, that young people who have to finish school more quickly and aren't allowed to spend as much time at University don't know as much as the ones who came before. But: Today's young people are all lazy and stupid anyway. 
So we absolutely need to "import" skilled workers from other countries who of course all want nothing but come to Germany, forget about the home country and pay their taxes here. If they're only speaking English and refuse to learn German, no problem. Their language isn't Turkish or Arabic and they aren't evil Muslims. But never, ever consider accepting immigrants who come in to escape hunger, war, or political/religious persecution. They're useless for the economy and giving them education would cost money. The money for the education of our future workers should be spent by others, please.

Sorry about the rant, but the newspapers are full of things that make me angry at the moment. One of the things I especially hate is the new division between supposedly "clever, dilligent and useful" people who come from India, Japan, China or other Asian countries and those who aren't especially from Africa and Muslim countries. 
But if someone calls this "racism" they're politically correction fools who don't understand about reality.


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## The Blue Lotus (Oct 2, 2011)

Amanita said:


> evil Muslims.
> I especially hate is the new division between supposedly "clever, dilligent and useful" people who come from India, Japan, China or other Asian countries and those who aren't especially from Africa and Muslim countries.
> But if someone calls this "racism" they're politically correction fools who don't understand about reality.



I am going to have to respectfuly agree to disagree. 
My husband is Indian... I am Hindu as well. So that upsets me to hear someone say something like that about Indians. 

My brother married a nice lady from Japan, and my little sister is dating a Korean. (she is half Mexican.)
My best friend is Muslim (from Pakistan). So again the first like really irritates me. 

There are good people and bad people in every creed and color. The only people who say Muslims are "evil" are the under educated. Perhaps you should try learning more about the religion. It is not unlike any other that you know. At its most basic, it is a peaceful, and loving one. Too bad as with so many other things sick humans have twisted it and made it something it was never meant to be. 

So I shall part and drop this matter with these last words; and a quote.

"if someone calls this "racism" they're politically correction fools who don't understand about reality." 

Racism is defined as: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races  determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race  is superior and has the right to rule others. 

So while no I do not think you are rasist I do belive you are very young and thus have not had enough life experiance as of yet to understand what you are saying, or you are very old and thus unable to look at things in a new light. 

You decide which of the two you fit in. 
Gods bless always, 
~BL~


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## Fnord (Oct 2, 2011)

Amanita said:


> I'm afraid that it isn't much better elsewhere. At least not in Europe. I don't know about Australia.
> This  totally applies here as well.
> Lobbying groups decide what's happening in the country in question and the German governemnts do their best to destroy the educational system to create "people who easily adapt to the demands of the market" instead of "people who are able to think for themselves".
> So bad, that young people who have to finish school more quickly and aren't allowed to spend as much time at University don't know as much as the ones who came before. But: Today's young people are all lazy and stupid anyway.
> ...



Immigration is actually a very good way to add dynamism to the economy.  I spoke in Washington DC about the economic virtues of immigration and presented my research on why adopting a much more liberalized immigration policy would be very much in our best interest.  

The problem people tend to have exists only in the short-run; people from other countries need a generation or two to fully assimilate and their children tend to better adopt the host language and attain educational levels even beyond that of the lower classes who already live there.  The other concern, of course, is the level of "generosity" that comes from social programs in the new country.  The more generous those programs are, the more problems can arise.  But that's a problem of government policy, not of the immigrants themselves.


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## Amanita (Oct 3, 2011)

> My husband is Indian... I am Hindu as well. So that upsets me to hear someone say something like that about Indians.


I'm really sorry if my post sounded as if I were insulting Indians. I didn't mean to do this at all. What I did want to critisize are these generalisations that everyone from one country or a group is a "useful" immigrant while people from other places never are. And the idea that doing everything in English is fine and everyone who wants to use their own language is old-fashioned or stupid. Once again, no criticism against Indian, Japanse, Chinese etc. but against a certain mentality among German politicians and especially, business leaders.

Once again, I'm really sorry for sounding offensive, I really should take better care of my words. *This last paragraph was actually supposed to be an ironic depiction of a certain point of view hold by some groups. This was the very point of view I wanted to critisize not my opinion!*I should really keep to my decision to stay away from this thread.
If this really sounds that ambigious, I'll delete this part after it has been discussed.


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## The Blue Lotus (Oct 3, 2011)

Ah Not a big deal, There are all types of things and tone does not come across on a screen well so  
Not an issue at all. 
Have a great day!
~BL~


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## Amanita (Oct 3, 2011)

Yes, this is a problem oft he internet. And now I understand better why things get out of hand here so easily. To me, it seemed obvious that this wasn’t my own opinion but two strangers on an internet forum, it wouldn’t be of course.

Maybe I should give a quick explanation as to what I actually meant to say. The following is by no means the opinion of most Germans but of some members of the so-called "elite."
It’s a tendency among a few German politicians, many business leaders and certain news paper commentators to divide people up into those who are able to benefit the economy and those who don’t. When different nationalities are concerned, this is often decided by the economic situation of the county in question. 
Therefore they believe that letting people from successful countries immigrate is good, while letting those from less successful countries in is bad, quickly put. For this they cite cultural and sometimes even genetical reasons. 
Some of those commentators even believe that money spent on better education for the children of Muslim immigrants already living in Germany is wasted, because they aren’t able to make something out of it. 
These people expect that immigrants from succesfull countries such as China and India should be educated there but later come to Germany and stay there. If they don’t, they’re blamed of only coming to „steal ideas and technology.“ 

This idea seems egoistic and racist to me, the people who believe it, claim that it has nothing to do with racsim but with „rationally accepting the facts“ At least since 9/11 Muslims are seen as acceptable targets for all kinds of generalising „criticism“.


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## Metalfist (Oct 6, 2011)

We run a bike shop. Ironically, when the economic crap hits the proverbial fan, bike shops do really well. Bicycles are largely recession-proof. They can be used as an affordable means of transportation in times of need.... which we are seeing more of this year, and can be used recreationally to forget about your troubles for awhile. We've had our best year in twenty years, and each year goes from strength to strength. Here in Canada things aren't as bad as they are in the United States. We watch American news and shake our heads at the way things are done south of the border. The political system is the strangest of all. And what's with all of this "feet, inches, pounds and gallons" stuff?


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## The Blue Lotus (Oct 6, 2011)

Metalfist said:


> We watch American news and shake our heads at the way things are done south of the border. The political system is the strangest of all. And what's with all of this "feet, inches, pounds and gallons" stuff?



OK 2 things, First off I totaly agree our political system is in the crapper. It was a good idea, but like all ideas it needs a serious re-think. 

Secondly What is with the "new" math? Kilometers, Liters, blah blah ... 

The rest of the world should fall in line, the standard system is so easy... ya'lls is wacked out.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Oct 6, 2011)

Metalfist said:


> We run a bike shop. Ironically, when the economic crap hits the proverbial fan, bike shops do really well. Bicycles are largely recession-proof. They can be used as an affordable means of transportation in times of need.... which we are seeing more of this year, and can be used recreationally to forget about your troubles for awhile. We've had our best year in twenty years, and each year goes from strength to strength. Here in Canada things aren't as bad as they are in the United States. We watch American news and shake our heads at the way things are done south of the border. The political system is the strangest of all. And what's with all of this "feet, inches, pounds and gallons" stuff?



I hear ya. Born and raised in the U.S., but I wish to hell we used metric for everything. I'm trying to train myself to think in kilograms and kilometers instead of pounds and miles, but it's hard to get used to it after thirty-odd years.

However I've had all my clocks on 24-hour time for about 20 years now, and I wish everyone else would get with the program. 12-hour time is for chumps.


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## Fnord (Oct 7, 2011)

I have a completely unsupported hypothesis that part of the reason our kids are falling behind in math and science in the U.S. is because we use a thoroughly illogical and unwieldy system of measurement.


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## The Blue Lotus (Oct 7, 2011)

I remember back in the day when they tried to "convert us" as if we were some 'misguided pagan religion' that needed to "see the light". 

It failed miserably and thankfuly that was the last we heard of it.  

I'll keep our miles, gallons etc. I like em.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Oct 7, 2011)

While I am accustomed to miles, inches, pounds and other nice familiar units of measurement, the metric system is simpler.  If you do any form of science, they use the metric system, because it was designed over organically grown.  

For fantasy, meters don't really fit...

Just don't mess with my temperature...there is nothing wrong with fahrenheit.


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## The Blue Lotus (Oct 7, 2011)

Lord Darkstorm said:


> While I am accustomed to miles, inches, pounds and other nice familiar units of measurement, the metric system is simpler.  If you do any form of science, they use the metric system, because it was designed over organically grown.
> 
> For fantasy, meters don't really fit...
> Just don't mess with my temperature...there is nothing wrong with fahrenheit.



*Right on brother  Two thumbs waaaaay up!
*


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## Fnord (Oct 8, 2011)

I think we should all move to Kelvin.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Oct 8, 2011)

No...I think I could get a nice agreement from most people, that would require far bigger numbers than most of us would want to write out.  

_The morning was a pleasant two hundred and ninety seven degrees Kelvin as he walked out the door._ 

Not saying there is anything wrong with Kelvin, I just find seventy five is easier to write.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Oct 8, 2011)

Lord Darkstorm said:


> No...I think I could get a nice agreement from most people, that would require far bigger numbers than most of us would want to write out.
> 
> _The morning was a pleasant two hundred and ninety seven degrees Kelvin as he walked out the door._
> 
> Not saying there is anything wrong with Kelvin, I just find seventy five is easier to write.



Well, it's shorter, and you're used to it. If we'd all grown up using kelvins we'd all be totally used to it, and the idea of using Fahrenheit would be weeeeeird.


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## Fnord (Oct 11, 2011)

Lord Darkstorm said:


> No...I think I could get a nice agreement from most people, that would require far bigger numbers than most of us would want to write out.
> 
> _The morning was a pleasant two hundred and ninety seven degrees Kelvin as he walked out the door._
> 
> Not saying there is anything wrong with Kelvin, I just find seventy five is easier to write.



You make a fine point!


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