# Lack of Diversity in My Stories?



## valiant12 (Jul 23, 2015)

By lack of diversity I mean a lack of sexual diversity. To be more specific all male characters in all of my works are straight. And the reason for that is they are straight in my imagination.
I think that this actually has some advantages. Let me give some examples
- One of the main characters in my main WIP is a member of a persecuted minority religion. His religion is based on a real world religion. If I make him gay I would offend that religious group, which I deeply respect.
- Another character from a different WIP is very eccentric, if I make him gay I would offend a lot of eccentric straight people.
- I think adding a gay character will push away some streith/religios\conserative\female people from my books.
- I think adding sexual diversity limits other more important forms of diversity- mainly cultural diversity. This applies mainly to works set in our real world. Many cultures which exist on earth today aren't as tolerant of people with alternative sexuality as western society.
What do you think? Do you have sexual diversity in your story? Do you think adding sexual diversity will push away some people from your book?

edited- sorry for the typo in the title


----------



## Gryphos (Jul 23, 2015)

valiant12 said:
			
		

> - One of the main characters in my main WIP is a member of a persecuted minority religion. His religion is based on a real world religion. If I make him gay I would offend that religious group, which I deeply respect.



1) It wouldn't necessarily offend them. I know a lot of people of various religions who have no problem with homosexuality. 2) Even if you did offend some people by simply adding a gay character, so? Why should you worry about offending bigots? 3) You respect the religious group despite believing they have homophobic views? Not really relevant to the question, just a bit strange.



> - Another character from a different WIP is very eccentric, if I make him gay I would offend a lot of eccentric straight people.



Wat? Why would any eccentric straight dude be offended by an eccentric gay dude? Unless they're homophobic and would be offended by the presence of any kind of gay dude. In which case, see point 2 above.



> - I think adding a gay character will push away some streith/religios\conserative\female people from my books.



Are you joking? I'm sorry if you aren't, but I am struggling to see your logic throughout this entire post. Why on earth would a gay character push away women from reading? I mean, obviously homophobic women would be pushed away, but, again, see point 2 above.



> - I think adding sexual diversity limits other more important forms of diversity- mainly cultural diversity. This applies mainly to works set in our real world. Many cultures which exist on earth today aren't as tolerant of people with alternative sexuality as western society.



True, depending on where the story is set attitudes of certain characters might be different, but that doesn't mean gay characters wouldn't exist. Let's take history for example. Nowadays in western society people are a lot more tolerant of homosexuality than in the past (generally speaking). That doesn't mean, however, that gay people didn't exist in the past. Gay people have always existed just as much as they do today.



> What do you think? Do you have sexual diversity in your story? Do you think adding sexual diversity will push away some people from your book?



I try to have some sexual diversity, unless it's a story where the notion of romance isn't really ever touched upon, in which case I don't reveal any character's sexuality. In stories where characters' sexualities are even briefly touched upon, I like to get some variety. Maybe this might push away some homophobic people from my books, but I honestly couldn't care less. See point 2 above.


----------



## Miskatonic (Jul 23, 2015)

It's up to you what you want. It isn't some cardinal law that you have to have certain demographics in your story. I find this whole needing confirmation of what you are doing is OK type of attitude to be quite troubling. 

Believe me, the overwhelming number of readers out there are not going to toss your book aside if you don't have enough sexual diversity.


----------



## Russ (Jul 23, 2015)

valiant12 said:


> By lack of diversity I mean a lack of sexual diversity. To be more specific all male characters in all of my works are straight. And the reason for that is they are straight in my imagination.
> I think that this actually has some advantages. Let me give some examples
> - One of the main characters in my main WIP is a member of a persecuted minority religion. His religion is based on a real world religion. If I make him gay I would offend that religious group, which I deeply respect.
> - Another character from a different WIP is very eccentric, if I make him gay I would offend a lot of eccentric straight people.
> ...



I have sexual diversity in my writing, because there is sexual diversity in the world and it fits the story quite well.  

If you believe your target market is either very homophobic or very religiously conservative than you might want to avoid having gay characters.

However your post seems to imply that women and eccentric straight people are more homophobic than the average.  I simply don't think that is true at all.

In the general marketplace I don't think there is an advantage to having all your male characters being straight.  My understanding is that the spec fic reader tends to be well educated and liberal in their thinking.  

You also say all your male characters are straight.  Does that mean that you have gay female characters?


----------



## DeathtoTrite (Jul 23, 2015)

I imply some characters are LGBT. My world really wouldn't allow them to be forthcoming about it. And since none of these happen to be POV characters, it gets even more obscure.

It is absolutely, 100% okay to not have gay characters. LotR didn't. GoT has some implied gay men, none of whom are particularly likable. If your only reason is fear of offense, I would say do it anyway-- someone will always be offended. That is called the internet.


----------



## Garren Jacobsen (Jul 23, 2015)

valiant12 said:


> By lack of diversity I mean a lack of sexual diversity. To be more specific all male characters in all of my works are straight. And the reason for that is they are straight in my imagination.
> I think that this actually has some advantages. Let me give some examples
> - One of the main characters in my main WIP is a member of a persecuted minority religion. His religion is based on a real world religion. If I make him gay I would offend that religious group, which I deeply respect.
> - Another character from a different WIP is very eccentric, if I make him gay I would offend a lot of eccentric straight people.
> ...



Let's go through this point by point:

1. Minority Religion: This depends on the religion. If it is based on the Westboro Baptist Church, they'll be offended. If it's based on Mormonism I doubt they'd care (the institution and most of the people wouldn't care either for that matter, only the jerkiest of Mormons would), as one I know I wouldn't. 

2. Eccentric: No, well not at above average rates

3. Not including a gay character could push away LGBTQA types. Not having guns will push away an audience. Not making it about Jack Reacher will push away an audience. Not having pandas will push away an audience. No matte what you do you push away an audience. What you should care about is what is best for your story, period. Everything else will fall into place from there.

4. I don't understand why you would think that. Look, I am not gay, I am politically conservative, and am a Mormon. But I recognize that there is sexual diversity. I recognize that some societies will accept it. I also recognize one thing about my stories, I do what is best for my books. Period. If that means I need a gay character I'll put in the gay character. I have a couple of gay characters, one will be betrayed by someone he thought a friend (gets his soul ripped out of him). So I do have some sexual diversity. It will drive away people from my book and that's not necessarily a problem. If I wanted my books to be universally liked I wouldn't try to get them published.


----------



## X Equestris (Jul 23, 2015)

1. I'm going to have to say that it totally depends on the religion.  Some people might care, some might not.  Additionally, there are without a doubt some gay people who follow religions that one might not think of as welcoming them.  Maybe they follow sects or denominations that don't really care about it, or maybe they never have sex.  Point is, they very much exist.  

2. I doubt you would offend or drive away that many for that reason.  I would be more worried about falling into gay stereotypes on that one.

3.  Certain things are going to drive away an audience no matter what.  But I doubt adding a gay character would drive away that many women.  Have you been to a fanfiction website?  I rest my case.  

4.  I don't see how.  Plenty of cultures from the past were more tolerant and open than some that exist today.  Or they operated on a set of sexual mores that are foreign to us.  Like the Romans, where the view of sex varied depending on the power of those involved.  I have sexual diversity in my stories.  One of the three major characters in the novel I'm working on is a lesbian.  A major power player in a novel idea I had is gay.  Ultimately, it comes down to what makes the most interesting story, and if it works or not.  Personally, if someone can't tolerate the existence of a gay character, or a religious character, or a black character and decides not to buy my work because of that, I won't be too broken up over it.  I would prefer to avoid having a fanbase full of bigots.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 23, 2015)

Where you see potential audience offense, I see potential character and plot conflict.


----------



## Russ (Jul 23, 2015)

X Equestris said:


> 4.  I don't see how.  Plenty of cultures from the past were more tolerant and open than some that exist today.  Or they operated on a set of sexual mores that are foreign to us.  Like the Romans, where the view of sex varied depending on the power of those involved.  I have sexual diversity in my stories.  One of the three major characters in the novel I'm working on is a lesbian.  A major power player in a novel idea I had is gay.  Ultimately, it comes down to what makes the most interesting story, and if it works or not.  Personally, if someone can't tolerate the existence of a gay character, or a religious character, or a black character and decides not to buy my work because of that, I won't be too broken up over it.  I would prefer to avoid having a fanbase full of bigots.



This is a very good point.  In fact we can say with some certainty that Richard the Lion Heart was likely either gay or at least bisexual.  Trying to write a book that offends no one is about as productive as hunting a unicorn.

If you really think about markets, the Spec Fic market is likely not homophobic at all, and I would be surprised if a significant amount of the readership of fantasy were religious fundamentalists as they even eschew writings that show magic in a positive light.

The more I think about it, the more I think the reasoning in the OP is ass backwards.

And great point about fanfic, even when fan fic was just getting going years ago there was already a ton of gay erotic fan fic, it appeared that Kirk and Spock were tireless....


----------



## BWFoster78 (Jul 23, 2015)

Can I just publicly thank whoever added the "S" in the title? The lack was driving me batty.


----------



## Gryphos (Jul 23, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> Can I just publicly thank whoever added the "S" in the title? The lack was driving me batty.



Your choice of words is probably unintentionally appropriate to the subject. See, in south London slang 'battyman' is a derogatory term for a gay dude. The more you know.


----------



## A. E. Lowan (Jul 23, 2015)

First I just want to leave this here.  Dear Guy Who Is Mad Because I Wrote A Gay Character In A Book Ã‚Â« terribleminds: chuck wendig  It's Chuck Wendig's post from yesterday and curiously appropriate to this thread.  Reminder: it's Wendig, kids.  Some swearing, probably NSFW.

My partner and I have a great deal of diversity in our series, both sexual and otherwise, and yes, we're expecting to generate some quality hate for it from certain, _conservative_, corners.  But the world is not limited to straight, cis, and white, and our stories reflect that.  So yes, there are gay people.  There are bisexual people.  There are trans people.  There are brown people, and there are disabled people.  Some have religion, some don't, some are fairly straight-laced and some are mad as hatters.  

Thing is, people come in all shapes, sizes, and flavors.  We write accordingly.


----------



## cupiscent (Jul 23, 2015)

DeathtoTrite said:


> It is absolutely, 100% okay to not have gay characters. LotR didn't.



How do you know? Hardly anyone's sexuality was ever made an issue in LotR. Half the Fellowship could have been gay as maypoles and we wouldn't have known. 

A lot of excellent points have been raised here, but I would like to reiterate the point that just because history/society/religion doesn't approve of homosexuality, does not mean there haven't been people in that historical milieu / society / religion who are homosexual and struggling with it. Why, even today, in modern, enlightened, secular and relatively supportive Australia, I have gay Catholic friends who have to struggle daily with reconciling their faith and sexuality.

And what is personal struggle when it comes to story and character? Interesting if not outright essential.

As always, I'm never going to say anyone has to do things they don't want to do with their own stories. But I'm also never going to not want to see more diversity - of all kinds, including sexuality - in the fantasy stories that I read.


----------



## Feo Takahari (Jul 23, 2015)

cupiscent said:


> How do you know? Hardly anyone's sexuality was ever made an issue in LotR. Half the Fellowship could have been gay as maypoles and we wouldn't have known.



Have you seen the stuff fans write about Frodo and Sam's relationship? All of the homo, my friends.

Personally, I often don't write my characters as "gay" or "straight." I do have one character who hangs out at gay bars and has been a victim of gay-bashing, because that's important to establishing his character. The guy who dates him hasn't had a boyfriend before and never really gave much thought to it before he fell in love with a guy. Another character in the same story has an intense bond with someone of the same sex, but is most likely asexual and denies any sexual attraction to her. I've written a character who loves someone without knowing if that person is a man or a woman, a character who loves someone without _identifying_ as a man or a woman, a "straight guy" who winds up in a woman's body and starts experimenting . . . People are complicated, so my characters are complicated, too.


----------



## cupiscent (Jul 23, 2015)

Feo Takahari said:


> Have you seen the stuff fans write about Frodo and Sam's relationship? All of the homo, my friends.



I spent a lot of time in LotR fandom, actually.  But just working from the text, Sam goes home and marries Rosie, doesn't he? Though he could still be bisexual (which is also important to represent). But Legolas and Gimli, on the other hand...


----------



## Feo Takahari (Jul 23, 2015)

If I may add in one more comment, I just remembered an article I read a while ago.



> Switching gears for a moment, I want to point out this amazing email about a Borderlands 2 NPC named Karima, who is a chronic stutterer:
> 
> I was playing Borderlands 2 today when I came across the NPC Karima in the medicine man mission. At first I was a bit angry she had a stutter —I was hit in the head with shrapnel from an IED in al-anbar Iraq and have problems talking — because the stereotypes surrounding stutterers are not kind. Communication is one of the defining pieces of humanity and when you cannot communicate to those around you, they tend to view you as lesser. I can’t tell my daughter I love her without struggling through those 3 little words. I quickly realized the mission was written such and clearly illustrated just how evil Hyperion is. She was a very sympathetic character. Whoever wrote this went 180 degrees away from what I thought was going to happen in this case. Thank you. In a game where bat shit craziness is the norm — the writers injected a very subtle bit of humanity. For whatever reason, this really struck me. Thank you for taking the high road here. You skipped over cheap laughs here and in so doing made a big impact. Thank you.
> 
> ...



And have one more for good measure! Even when representation isn't intended, a sympathetic portrayal of a fictional issue can be a powerful mirror for a real one.


----------



## Fyle (Jul 23, 2015)

Not every book can be balanced with perfect ethnic, gender, sexual choice, age or any other group that may be left out.

IF the story is about a specific group, it some cases it may be best not to have diversity.

For example : If I set my story in ancient Japan on the farthest northern island of Hokkaido, and I have nobody but Japanese natives, then it would make perfect sense not to have ethnic diversity.

If it happens to be about a group of sumo wrestlers who do not allow women to join their clubs (and still don't to this day), then it would make sense if all the MCs were male.

Diversity is something that some of your stories should have - but that doen't mean every single story every writer ever writes till the end of time has to have diversity or "something is wrong."

I also like to bring up Shawshank Redemption by Steven King which takes place in a male prison. It is an incredible tale, with no diveristy in characters due to the nature of the setting, and there is no reason to take off points for that.

If your world, or the "area" you are writing about happens not to be very diverse in some way, it's fine. Maybe just make a point to let the reader know why through worldbuilding and a well placed info dump or two.


----------



## ThinkerX (Jul 24, 2015)

The vast majority of my characters are straight.  Lessee here...(easier for me to think in terms of names)

From 'Labyrinth: Journal'

Titus Maximus - arranged marriage, no real passion.  Almost had an affair in the story, mostly though he's too busy.

Casein - No wife, but definitely likes the ladies.  On occasion he 'comes on strong' enough to where his actions might be seen as rape in todays society.  hard headed ex military guy.

Doctor Isabella Menendez:  Old widow.  Something like four husbands...but makes the occasional downright filthy sexual comment.

Empire (Country, Capital, Estate, and subsequent)

Tia Samos: Bit of a party girl, straight, but known to experiment (she has a lesbian moment in 'Estate').  Looking to land a noble born husband because that gives her and her family privileges normally restricted to the nobility.

Sir Peter Cortez:  The love of his life was Tia's deceased older sister.  But Tia looks a lot like her sister, and shares some personality traits...

Kyle: Big ugly peasant turned big ugly soldier turned big ugly magician.  For him its a law of nature - he will be married someday, period.

Other characters:

General Marcus Fabius:  Arranged marriage.  Too busy fighting a protracted war for affairs.  

Lysander: Magician.  Outcaste. Married to a part elf, wife left him.  Too busy hiding and doing magic stuff for affairs.

Could go on, but...


----------



## Feo Takahari (Jul 24, 2015)

Fyle said:


> For example : If I set my story in ancient Japan on the farthest northern island of Hokkaido, and I have nobody but Japanese natives, then it would make perfect sense not to have ethnic diversity.



A fair number of works created in Japan have characters or societies modeled on the Ainu people native to Hokkaido, e.g. Silver Spoon or Samurai Champloo.


----------



## cupiscent (Jul 24, 2015)

Of course you can choose to set your story wherever you like, including in scenarios where diversity is impossible. But that is a choice you are making. And I prefer to read stories there the author has chosen to include diversity.


----------



## valiant12 (Jul 24, 2015)

> You also say all your male characters are straight. Does that mean that you have gay female characters?



I have one lesbian character. She is the daughter of the eccentric billionaire I mentioned in my first post. I had two gay males (three if you count one minor character), I never finish the story where one of them is a central. I changed the plot where the second is a main character, and now his sexuality is irrelevant. 


> Trying to write a book that offends no one is about as productive as hunting a unicorn.



 have no problems, offending some people, but I don't want to offend a lot of people. I will probably offend a lot people anyway. ( Regardless of character's sexuality)


----------



## Kazzan (Jul 24, 2015)

I'm mostly writing straight characters. I'm unsure if I could do lesbian or gay characters justice, I'd probably do a passable job at it, but I have no experience with that. I dont personally know a single gay guy and only one lesbian in real life. Then again, in my own writing sexuality doesn't really come up that often. 

As for sexual diversity, I dont think it is a necessity in a fantasy story. If you want to include diversity, it's fine, but dont force it in. If you do write a gay character, Make them respectable characters and not stereotypes. Also consider how it might inpact the story you are telling.


----------



## Russ (Jul 24, 2015)

valiant12 said:


> I have one lesbian character. She is the daughter of the eccentric billionaire I mentioned in my first post. I had two gay males (three if you count one minor character), I never finish the story where one of them is a central. I changed the plot where the second is a main character, and now his sexuality is irrelevant.
> 
> 
> have no problems, offending some people, but I don't want to offend a lot of people. I will probably offend a lot people anyway. ( Regardless of character's sexuality)



I think your concerns about what having male gay characters will do to your potential sales among the religious, women and eccentrics are unfounded.


----------



## X Equestris (Jul 24, 2015)

valiant12 said:


> I have one lesbian character. She is the daughter of the eccentric billionaire I mentioned in my first post. I had two gay males (three if you count one minor character), I never finish the story where one of them is a central. I changed the plot where the second is a main character, and now his sexuality is irrelevant.
> 
> 
> have no problems, offending some people, but I don't want to offend a lot of people. I will probably offend a lot people anyway. ( Regardless of character's sexuality)



If you already have a lesbian character, I think most of the people who would be offended by a gay character would also be offended by her.  I know there's occasions where someone might hypocritically have no problem with lesbians but would with gay characters, but I don't think that is worth getting bothered over.


----------



## Kittie Brandybuck (Mar 24, 2021)

valiant12 said:


> By lack of diversity I mean a lack of sexual diversity. To be more specific all male characters in all of my works are straight. And the reason for that is they are straight in my imagination.
> I think that this actually has some advantages. Let me give some examples
> - One of the main characters in my main WIP is a member of a persecuted minority religion. His religion is based on a real world religion. If I make him gay I would offend that religious group, which I deeply respect.
> - Another character from a different WIP is very eccentric, if I make him gay I would offend a lot of eccentric straight people.
> ...


I don't understand why you think adding gay people will push away girls. I am female and I am very pro-LGBTQ+, and I know a lot of other females who are too.


----------



## Kittie Brandybuck (Mar 24, 2021)

cupiscent said:


> I spent a lot of time in LotR fandom, actually.  But just working from the text, Sam goes home and marries Rosie, doesn't he? Though he could still be bisexual (which is also important to represent). But Legolas and Gimli, on the other hand...


I think Sam is bisexual. Here is a small paragraph that happens after Frodo wakes up in Rivendell:
_At the moment there was a knock on the door, and Sam came in. He ran to Frodo and took his left hand, awkwardly and shyly. He stroked it gently and then blushed and turned hastily away._


----------



## A. E. Lowan (Mar 24, 2021)

Kazzan said:


> I'm mostly writing straight characters. I'm unsure if I could do lesbian or gay characters justice, I'd probably do a passable job at it, but I have no experience with that. I dont personally know a single gay guy and only one lesbian in real life. Then again, in my own writing sexuality doesn't really come up that often.
> 
> As for sexual diversity, I dont think it is a necessity in a fantasy story. *If you want to include diversity, it's fine, but dont force it in*. If you do write a gay character, Make them respectable characters and not stereotypes. Also consider how it might inpact the story you are telling.



For heaven's sake, make sure to not force in your heterosexual, characters of color, disabled characters, female characters who do nothing but fetch water and squeeze out babies, trans characters, etc. You know, the rest of humanity. Heaven knows what may happen? Reality? Piffle. We have talking cats. We don't need reality. We already have squishy babies with chosen swords.

In our first book, Faerie Rising, we managed to forget to have a straight, while, male, cis character. At all. What did it do to the plot? Nothing, since we didn't figure it out until after publication. Whoops.

So, yeah, Sir Ian McKellen made darn sure that Sam and Frodo were at least at the experimental phase of their relationship, and relationships between young men of different classes were a different experience when Tolkien was writing, so a little hand touch does not the beast with two backs make.

Where was I? Oh yeah... LGBTQ+ are people. first and foremost. Also, Do your homework. If you're afraid to write about us, you need to do a whole lot of reading about us. We're vicious aliens and god knows you might learn something.


----------



## Queshire (Mar 24, 2021)

Fair warning; probably best to not expect a reply from the original poster considering that the thread is from 2015.

You know, reading this thread really makes me appreciate how far we've come since then.

I've said before that representation in media is at its best when it doesn't have to be searched for. Don't get me wrong, I'm the type of person that's both specifically picked up a work because I hear it has lgbt stuff in it and searched for new stuff by whether or not it has lgbt stuff. It hits differently when I pick up a story about werewolves (because werewolves are cool) and the primary male werewolf is both gay and that his love interest is our female werewolf protagonist's likely-Autistic brother.

As for my own stuff, well, I can't say that I don't have any cishet characters, but I have enough LGBT characters that they should probably be considered the default for any character that shows up.


----------



## A. E. Lowan (Mar 24, 2021)

Queshire said:


> *Fair warning; probably best to not expect a reply from the original poster considering that the thread is from 2015.*
> 
> You know, reading this thread really makes me appreciate how far we've come since then.
> 
> ...


Not sure if you're talking to me or to our new and welcome member who I'm sure accidentally necro'd the thread in the first place.


----------



## Chasejxyz (Mar 24, 2021)

I really wish OP said which religion they're writing about, because I can then give them examples of members of that religion that are openly queer. I'm Buddhist and my temple is one of the most welcoming groups I've ever met. I have an uncle who got married in a temple to a gay Jewish man. I have a very good book about a Muslim man who is coming to terms with both his son's homosexuality and his own not-straight-ness. Queer people exist in every religion, and there are spiritual communities in every religion that accept it. Just because Big Mormon says that being gay/trans is bad, doesn't mean that no Mormon spiritual community will ever accept and love their gay/trans congregants. 

Also tbh it's kind of insulting to assume that any religious person is going to be offended by seeing A Gay in a piece of media. I grew up in a very atheist "If you believe in religion you are a dumb sheeple" household and people aren't like that at all. I didn't seek out a spiritual community for a long time because I thought every one would reject someone like me, since no ancient religious texts say "queer people are good, actually." The kind of people who would reject your story for having queer people in it are not the kind of people you want reading your story, anyways.


----------



## Miles Lacey (Mar 24, 2021)

My work in progress is set in a world where bisexuality is the sexual orientation of the vast majority of people, including the main character.  The key reason for doing this isn't due to me  being bisexual but because I wanted to see how bisexuality could potentially shape everything from religion to marriage to family life in this world. 

When writing LGBT+ characters you are going to offend some people.  In many countries your book will be banned, especially if it's a young adult book, so my advice is not to get worked up about it.  Just focus on creating great characters who just happen to be LGBT+ and you'll do fine.


----------



## Rosemary Tea (Mar 24, 2021)

I think it's one thing if characters' sexual orientations are completely irrelevant to the story, and another if you're deliberately excluding LGBTQ characters. In the first instance, nobody's sexual orientation is being mentioned, described, or even hinted at, so for all the reader knows, every character could just as easily be LGBTQ as straight. It's another if you're deliberately making everyone cishet and acting like no other orientation even exists.

Now, the story could be set in a culture where everyone is presumed heterosexual and only heterosexual marriage is allowed. But that wouldn't mean nobody is LGBTQ, just that they aren't openly so. 

Personally, I find it easiest to write sexuality, if it's relevant, from a heterosexual woman's point of view, because that's what I am. And I'm defining sexuality very broadly here: if a character has a crush on someone, that's sexuality, even if it goes no further than that. I can put people with other orientations in a story, but as far as their sexuality is concerned, it's probably going to be viewed through another character's eyes: the straight female character has friends who are in same gender relationships, for example. Maybe I'll try my hand at another kind of viewpoint eventually, but that's not what I've done so far.


----------



## Insolent Lad (Mar 24, 2021)

Chasejxyz said:


> I didn't seek out a spiritual community for a long time because I thought every one would reject someone like me, since no ancient religious texts say "queer people are good, actually.".



There have been cultures where it was traditional for shamans or priests to be gay or trans—cultures as diverse as the ancient Scythians and the Philippines. I've always intended to work that idea into a story someday if it would fit.


----------



## Chasejxyz (Mar 24, 2021)

Insolent Lad said:


> There have been cultures where it was traditional for shamans or priests to be gay or trans—cultures as diverse as the ancient Scythians and the Philippines. I've always intended to work that idea into a story someday if it would fit.



Oh of course! Unfortunately, colonization happened, and you know how it goes.

How I look at it...if you choose to have all your characters be cis and heterosexual...you're hamstringing yourself and your worldbuilding. You're limiting yourself. "Gender based" magic systems are common enough, but someone who's nonbinary, transgender or intersex, what would their magic be like? Would they be incredibly powerful because they could use both kinds? Or it's a reason for your [A] character to be able to use [C]  magic besides "they're the main character they get to be special." What if your king has a harem of men AND a harem of women, what would the political drama be like there? Or what if your queen regnant is poly and has multiple prince and princess consorts, what would succession be like there?

Historically, trans people would totally change their identity and move somewhere new and start their lives over, where no one would know they're trans (this was REQUIRED in the US up until a few decades ago in order to receive gender-confirming surgery). Sounds like a geat backstory for an adventurer, especially if your world is really gender role-y (the woman leading the rebellion is using advanced military tactics, she said she learned it from her husband but it doesn't seem to line up). Of course, they don't have to hide being transgender or it be seen as shameful, maybe there's a very large, open industry for transformation spells/potions/materials. I can go on and on coming up with world or story ideas that include queer characters because there's just _so much_ and a lot of it has never been done before. But if everyone is cishet you're missing out on all this. In fantasy, anything is possible, so why would you limit yourself like that?


----------



## Rosemary Tea (Mar 24, 2021)

Chasejxyz said:


> Oh of course! Unfortunately, colonization happened, and you know how it goes.
> 
> How I look at it...if you choose to have all your characters be cis and heterosexual...you're hamstringing yourself and your worldbuilding. You're limiting yourself. *"Gender based" magic systems are common enough, but someone who's nonbinary, transgender or intersex, what would their magic be like? Would they be incredibly powerful because they could use both kinds?*


Probably. That would make them two spirits. Once upon a time in certain parts of North America, female healers did one thing, male healers did another, and two spirit healers could do either or both.

I've personally observed that there are lots of LGBTQ folks in alternative healing fields, in our own time when such things aren't usually gendered. More than their representation in the general population would account for. Maybe that just reflects who I know, but I think there's a link.


----------



## A. E. Lowan (Mar 24, 2021)

Rosemary Tea said:


> Probably. That would make them two spirits. Once upon a time in certain parts of North America, female healers did one thing, male healers did another, and two spirit healers could do either or both.
> 
> I've personally observed that there are lots of LGBTQ folks in alternative healing fields, in our own time when such things aren't usually gendered. More than their representation in the general population would account for. Maybe that just reflects who I know, but I think there's a link.


Personal story, not alternative medicine. My wife is severely chronically ill and developed viral meningitis. About a week in the hospital with her heart slowly shutting down due to a vagus nerve reaction (it just hurt so much it couldn't cope.) We had a nurse named Regene who was a transwoman, and this woman saved my wife's life by refusing to give her a medication that would slow her heart even further (at the time it was 27 beats per minute. Minute.) The resident hospitalist wanted Regene fired, but she stuck to her guns, and when cardio came in the next morning the kicked the hospitalist out and praised Regene for her bravery and tenacity. About two days later we found a cocktail that reduced the pain and we went home three days after that. I will never, ever, find enough good things to say about that woman who saved my wife's life in the middle of the night. And this is why we need to tell the stories that don't often get told.


----------



## pmmg (Mar 25, 2021)

Well this is an old thread, I see no reason to dwell on it.

But in case they ever return to look....


*- One of the main characters in my main WIP is a member of a persecuted minority religion. His religion is based on a real world religion. If I make him gay I would offend that religious group, which I deeply respect.*

I doubt it. Many people in real world religions are gay. If you are trying to say something counter to faith, such as what if the Catholic Church supported gay unions, then yeah....you would probably offend them. But if  there was a priest who was gay, no. (Secretly, A lot of priests are gay).

*- Another character from a different WIP is very eccentric, if I make him gay I would offend a lot of eccentric straight people.*

It should not. But people love to be offended. So...yes, some will be offended. So what? write the story you want.

*- I think adding a gay character will push away some straight/religious\conservative\female people from my books.*

Certainly. The world is full of all types and some will avoid this story for this reason.

*- I think adding sexual diversity limits other more important forms of diversity- mainly cultural diversity. This applies mainly to works set in our real world. *

Well...does not limit, but draws attention away from. If you weave it all together well, even that is a maybe. So what message do you want to send, and why add things that draw away from it. I think this falls along the lines of 'you cant please everyone', so please who you can.
*
Many cultures which exist on earth today aren't as tolerant of people with alternative sexuality as western society.*

If by that you mean the story will not cross over into some other cultures as well... Well, I think that would be true of any story.

*What do you think? Do you have sexual diversity in your story? Do you think adding sexual diversity will push away some people from your book?*

I do not focus much on sexual diversity in my stories. I am uninterested in the subject. I do think adding such diversity would push people away. I am not sure I would care.

I think these stories and issues are important to some, and not important to others. I don't feel I need to tackle them to tell a good story.


----------



## The Dark One (Mar 25, 2021)

Kittie Brandybuck said:


> I think Sam is bisexual. Here is a small paragraph that happens after Frodo wakes up in Rivendell:
> _At the moment there was a knock on the door, and Sam came in. He ran to Frodo and took his left hand, awkwardly and shyly. He stroked it gently and then blushed and turned hastily away._


Apparently the editors forced Tolkien to delete the next three pages...


----------



## The Dark One (Mar 25, 2021)

Most of what I would say has already been said - write the story you want and be prepared to stand by it. If you can't stand by it then don't write it.

But there are other factors at work in the world these days, from a range of socio-political and psycho-sexual perspectives. While it is laudable, on the one hand, to include a diversity of characters in your story, there are those who will tear you to shreds if you include non-straight characters without due sensitivity and insight.

Obviously, the more important the character to your story, the more authentic that character needs to feel to the subcultures the character represents. Woe betide anyone who gets that wrong.

Having said that, I have certainly included non-straight characters in my stories - increasingly so - not so much because I want to make some cool woke statement. I do it simply because I will only be on this Earth so long and I want to explore these characters for myself. I want to vicariously understand, on some (probably inadequate) level how these characters operate. (I don't write erotica, but there is always sex in my stories.)

For example, in the half written sequel to my most successful novel, there is a lesbian fabliau. How the hell does a middle-aged straight white male write that story without offending just about everyone?

Well, the complex relationships suit the plot perfectly, so that reassures me. But I also have lots of beta readers - some of whom are lesbians - and I've plagued them with questions and reality checking.

So far so good, but this is a dangerous area these days.


----------



## The Dark One (Mar 25, 2021)

Important to say also that non-straight characters are not solely defined by sex.


----------



## Chasejxyz (Mar 25, 2021)

The Dark One said:


> Important to say also that non-straight characters are not solely defined by sex.



I think this is an important point to reiterate. There are people who think that if a kid comes out as gay or trans, it's a terrible thing because they see it as _only_ a sexual thing, and kids don't have any sort of sexual thoughts or feelings, so therefore they must have been taught these things by a predatory adult. Queerness is a continuum, made of sexuality, romanticism, and gender identity. You can be asexual (do not have sexual attraction to anyone) and homorantic (falling in love with someone the same gender as you). USUALLY they align (a heterosexual person is also heteromantic) but not always. If you think about crushes you had when you were little, sex probably wasn't a part of it, but it was how you felt being around them, hence why a child can be gay. And being transgender has nothing to do with sexuality, again, this is why a child can be trans.

Also being gay/straight isn't an immutable property, such as having 2 arms, it's a descriptive one. A trans person is going to still have 2 arms if they transition, but someone who starts as a "straight man" and transitions into a woman is still* going to be into women, so now she is gay. Her attraction didn't change, it was how we describe it, since we don't say andro/gynosexual, we compare the genders of the people involved and label that.

Sexuality (and romanticism) is shoved into our faces all the time, we just don't notice it because we're so used to seeing it in the context of straight things. Two people of the same age sitting on a couch and buying kid's snacks on an app in a commercial are implied to be together and parenting a kid,  so we're showing a straight/gay couple, we're choosing to show (or ignore) different types of relationships. A few years ago there was a Cheerios commercial with an intterracial relationship and some people absolutely lost it. A wedding planning site commercial showed various couples in it, including a lesbian couple, and people lost it and they forced the Hallmark channel to not show it anymore (this is the same channel that had a movie about a Jew learning The True Meaning of Christmas so....). If you're mindful and look at the media that's put in front of you, you're going to notice this a lot, and that it's almost always able-bodied cis-het couples. It's always conventionally pretty, able-bodied, smooth-skinned women in beauty product ads. You don't even see blind or 3 legged pets in pet food commercials! This is why representation is important, even if it's a "oh my wife and I love that restaurant" type of line**.

*This isn't always the case, though. There's compulsory heterosexuality, where someone feels like they HAVE to be straight because society. After coming out and being more comfortable with themselves--and being in a safer situation--they might discover they were never actually into [whatever]. Or maybe HRT changes their attraction. Every trans person is different because every human that exists has their own unique and complicated relationship with gender and defines their gender in their own way. Stuff is complicated! If people have any questions about things I would be more than happy to help

**You're probably wondering "hey didn't people get mad at Disney for doing that?" And the reason why that is is because Disney's PR team went out of their way to advertise their movies (live action Beauty and the Beast, Avengers End Game, Onward etc) as THIS IS THE FIRST GAY DISNEY CHARACTER!!!! EVER!!!!!!!! (you can't have multiple first ones, guys). They acted like it was this huge, ground breaking thing and they were SO BRAVE for doing this. And these throw away lines are incredibly easy to remove in markets where being gay is frowned upon, if not straight-up illegal. People had to re-watch Avengers to catch that line, it was so non-existent, but the Russo brothers acted like it was going to be a  main character that would be gay. Disney is making these decisions to drum up sales in the west while protecting their sales in other markets, not becaue they actually give a hoot about representation.
But you're not Disney. If you put in a minor line like that and don't make it part of your marketing materials then it's not a bad thing. But also if you have a long series with a huge cast of characters and the ONLY queer representation is a one-time NPC with a throwaway line...then yeah that's not great. 1% of the population is transgender, which is more common than redheads. Roughly 10-12% of the population is some flavor of gay. You probably have more than 10 characters, do the math.


----------



## Rosemary Tea (Mar 25, 2021)

Chasejxyz said:


> I think this is an important point to reiterate. There are people who think that if a kid comes out as gay or trans, it's a terrible thing because they see it as _only_ a sexual thing, and kids don't have any sort of sexual thoughts or feelings, so therefore they must have been taught these things by a predatory adult. Queerness is a continuum, made of sexuality, romanticism, and gender identity. You can be asexual (do not have sexual attraction to anyone) and homorantic (falling in love with someone the same gender as you). USUALLY they align (a heterosexual person is also heteromantic) but not always. If you think about crushes you had when you were little, sex probably wasn't a part of it, but it was how you felt being around them, hence why a child can be gay. And being transgender has nothing to do with sexuality, again, this is why a child can be trans.


And who you get crushes on can be complicated. I read about a study, forget where, that showed that most women had crushes on people of both genders as preteens--around 11, 12, 13--including those who identify as straight or lesbian, and have stuck with one or the other as an adult.

At that age, I had those feelings toward a female friend. It felt so good to be near her. I was actually less confused about that than about the comparable feelings I had toward some boys (I felt much more awkward with the boys!). But when I got older, I became decidedly attracted to males. I never thought of myself as gay or bi, but I can see where the fluidity might be.


----------



## The Dark One (Mar 25, 2021)

The Dark One said:


> Important to say also that non-straight characters are not solely defined by sex.



For example, how often does it happen that you get to know a person - especially in the workplace - without having the slightest clue about their sexuality?

People don't always where their sex on their sleeve. I've several times been surprised to learn that someone I may have known for years was not what I presumed (if I'd presumed anything). (I have quite a funny story about this.)

The point being that that person was already characterised in my mind and sexuality wasn't a part of it.


----------

