# Avoiding cliched elves and genre crossovers in a Fantasy Project.



## Writer 1 Gregory

Hi all, 

I mentioned in my introduction that I've been writing for a while now and would like to do a fantasy story at some point. Now, I have started on a story about an Elf Princess, unfortunately I haven't fleshed out the story a whole lot in terms of mapping and such and I'm kind of stuck as a result.

This is my first straight up fantasy project and while I'm trying to avoid genre crossovers with science fiction or the western genre (which I'm also quite fond of) I'm also trying to avoid the Lord of the Rings types of elves. This is difficult since I'm struggling to map out a story properly.

Any thoughts?


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## WooHooMan

Going out of your way to avoid cliches isn't a great method of plotting.  And genre crossing can be fun and interesting.
So, I think you're totally backwards.

Really, you could argue that the Elf cliche (thin, pale, blonde, pointy-eared, magical nature-lovers) is really not much at all like how Elves are portrayed Tolkien's books.  So, trying to avoid that "cliche" seems like a waste of time.  In fact, it'd be more original if you did Elves closer to how they were in Tolkien's books.


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## Demesnedenoir

Make elves how you want them, don't worry about cliche.


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## valiant12

> This is my first straight up fantasy project and while I'm trying to avoid genre crossovers with science fiction or the western genre (which I'm also quite fond of)



You shouldn't avoid genre crossovers. Western fantasy is an interesting idea. Science fantasy is a very fun genre.
If you want to write a science fantasy-western with a generic elves you should - sound like a fun story .


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## Ban

I second the previous posts. Don't go out of your way to make your elves not clichÃ©, just let your creations be what feels right for the world/story.

I will offer some advice however, if you really wish to make your elves different. First of all write down  all the clichÃ©s yo know about elves. Such as: Tall, skinny, long lived, pointy ears, long hair, magically inclined, live in the forest, live on the northpole (santa's elves need love too), Elven monarchy (looking at you shakespearre). 
Once you've done that, write down the 5 or 10 things you personally find most iconic about elves. Keep that small number of iconic things, to make sure people will still recognize your elves as elves and change the other elven aspects.

For example you can have long-lived, wise elves with pointy ears. But who also have curly black hair, dark skin, no talent for magic and live in a naval republic somewhere on a tropical archipelago.


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## Peat

Why are you trying to avoid genre-crossovers/LotR Elves?

Also, do you really mean LotR Elves, or do you mean D&D Elves?


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## Chessie

WooHooMan said:


> Going out of your way to avoid cliches isn't a great method of plotting.  And genre crossing can be fun and interesting.
> So, I think you're totally backwards.
> 
> Really, you could argue that the Elf cliche (thin, pale, blonde, pointy-eared, magical nature-lovers) is really not much at all like how Elves are portrayed Tolkien's books.  So, trying to avoid that "cliche" seems like a waste of time.  In fact, it'd be more original if you did Elves closer to how they were in Tolkien's books.


Yes! Readers have certain expectations of what elves should look/be like as well. Make them your own, of course, but don't worry if they're tall, blonde either.

I'm working on an elven romance series at the moment and not really caring about how cliche my elves are. They live in mountainous terrain and have olive skin. Everything else is pretty standard. What matters is the story, not how cool "you" did elves.


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## DragonOfTheAerie

Please don't worry about being uncliche. Supposed cliches and cliches for a reason: a lot of people like them. 

Genre crossovers are awesome. I love them. Genres are mere limitations anyway...

Also, it annoys me when people try so hard to be "original" with a race or creature (mermaids, werewolves) and end up changing them so much they aren't mermaids or werewolves anymore; they might as well be something else. 

Though, I totally support the idea of dark-skinned seafaring elves. Those sound really cool. 

In short, don't worry.


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## Queshire

Well, everyone else has mentioned the core stuff, but on a more practical matter, one thing I favor is to pick something else to mix together with the classic races to give them a twist. For example, I've had Elves that use biotechnology and were based around magical!genetic engineering. For a more mythic feeling to elves, I think mixing elves with the idea of Taoist Immortals would have interesting potential.


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## FifthView

Make your elf race really a race of trees.  At various times, like mating season or war or.....whatever, the large trees split their bark and from within step forth in another form, which just happens to be similar what we tend to think of as elves.  They can exist in that form for some time, but not more than about a week or two, without returning; too long, and they deteriorate and die.

Hah, I don't know.  There are lots of things you could do.


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## WooHooMan

I made some Elves who were albinos who could walk through walls and levitate.  They lived in the mountains (driven up there by the Dwarves) and worship a giant snake.
That was my attempt at making Elves that were true to Norse mythology.

So, you got the D&D elves, the book Tolkien elves, the movie Tolkien elves, Norse elves, Germanic elves and old English fairy tale Keebler-Christmas elves.

So, which one's the cliche?


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## Penpilot

For me, I put the story first. If the story requires X to be what one could consider the cliche variety, so be it. I find that the more I focus on telling a compelling story, the less cliche elements turn out to be.

The only crime in using cliche elements is to write them poorly.


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## Malik

The cliche elf is a human in pointy ears. Bow optional.

I built a conlang for my elves. I later scrapped it, but designing their language helped me figure out how they think. Even the accent I constructed after scrapping the conlang helps me remember how they see the world. There are ideas that they don't have words for, and they have words for concepts that we don't have words for. 

You have to look at your races and think to yourself, _Why are they different? I know how I see this; how would an elf see this? How would a dwarf see it? Why? _And you have to do that with every scene where you use them. You're going to have to build some sociocultural backstory. If your elves are just humans who can talk to trees, then just have humans who can talk to trees.


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## Writer 1 Gregory

That makes so much sense that it's frightening.


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## Gurkhal

WooHooMan said:


> I made some Elves who were albinos who could walk through walls and levitate.  They lived in the mountains (driven up there by the Dwarves) and worship a giant snake.
> That was my attempt at making Elves that were true to Norse mythology.
> 
> So, you got the D&D elves, the book Tolkien elves, the movie Tolkien elves, Norse elves, Germanic elves and old English fairy tale Keebler-Christmas elves.
> 
> So, which one's the cliche?



Given Tolkien's and D&D's influence over later works and the fantasy genre I'd say that these two provides the cliche elves. Movie Tolkien elves just looks like a product of these two.


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## Malik

And let's not forget the WOW elves in all their dianobol-laced, iron-pumping, whey-scarfing glory.

Elves | Cracked.com

A piece on my elven language and accent here: Fair Folk, Greek Literature, and the Plight of the Modern Cunning Linguist | Joseph Malik


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## Chessie

Malik said:


> If your elves are just humans who can talk to trees, then just have humans who can talk to trees.


Absolutely. There should be something that distinguishes them from humans in the story. Right now, I'm having a hard time figuring out _why_ elves and humans would interbreed in my world. Figuring out the little things make a difference in the long run.


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## SeverinR

Banten said:


> I second the previous posts. Don't go out of your way to make your elves not clichÃ©, just let your creations be what feels right for the world/story.
> 
> I will offer some advice however, if you really wish to make your elves different. First of all write down  all the clichÃ©s yo know about elves. Such as: Tall, skinny, long lived, pointy ears, long hair, magically inclined, live in the forest, live on the northpole (santa's elves need love too), Elven monarchy (looking at you shakespearre).
> Once you've done that, write down the 5 or 10 things you personally find most iconic about elves. Keep that small number of iconic things, to make sure people will still recognize your elves as elves and change the other elven aspects.
> 
> For example you can have long-lived, wise elves with pointy ears. But who also have curly black hair, dark skin, no talent for magic and live in a naval republic somewhere on a tropical archipelago.


The darker skinned sea going people sounds interesting.  Skin color depends on where the person originally started, so a darker skin color would be from an area that had a lot of sunshine.  Tropical island elves? Why not.  

I have on a back burner, Nomadic elves that would live much like the Native Americans that lived off the land (as opposed to those that farmed).  They couldn't survive long in an established civilization though. They would conflict with the people that settled the land. So they would either kill the settlers or the settlers would kill the nomads.

Establish your elves before you write about them, so the "rules and mannerisms will be set, then work your elf characters into the established "rules and traditions."  
Also, remember the less contact a race has with others the more unique the people, the more interaction with other societies the more likely they are to mix the cultures.
So a city on the ocean with lots of foreigners coming to the city, would have mixed cultures with groups of people accepting different cultures and embracing them in some instances that the original culture would never consider.
The small backwards farming community would have more strict adherence to old culture.

Make your world yours, construct it with your unique people and cultures, mix them when appropriate.  Don't copy much from other peoples worlds and it will not be clichÃ©. Humans have many different cultures and societies, they aren't clichÃ©. But when people write to much like someone else they do become clichÃ©. It's not the race, it's how you write them.


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## skip.knox

> a darker skin color would be from an area that had a lot of sunshine.

True for human skin. Elf skin might react differently.


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## Reaver

This is my favorite kind of Elf:


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## Chessie

skip.knox said:


> > a darker skin color would be from an area that had a lot of sunshine.
> 
> True for human skin. Elf skin might react differently.


Also, science hasn't been able to definitively prove that skin color and sun intensity are related. Look at the indigenous people living in northern climates. Alaska Natives, for example, have dark skin. Just throwing that out there. But I agree, elf skin would act much differently.


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## Peat

See, I keep seeing people talk about a fear of cliched elves, or Tolkienesque elves, and I wonder where these people are taking their portrayals of elves from because it seems to be a different place from me. Maybe I think too much of games and not enough of literature but then elves seem to be less and less a staple of fantasy fiction and absolutely ubiquitous in gaming.

But I have seen a ridiculously wide variety of elves. Virtually every hue found in human and a few more besides (blue elves be popular manny); from elves in space, sharp suits and race cars, to primitives, nomads and mindless degenerates; from nasty beyond belief to... okay, not too many nicer than humanity at the moment, but I could swear they're there; to wielding incredible magics to completely swearing off supernatural arts; from of another dimension to humans with pointy ears and an extended life span to actual plants; from Norse/Celtic flavoured to Native American/Asian and... yeah. There's some cliches sure, but people have done a huge amount with elves already and some of the cliches seem less widepsread these days. Seafaring elves should actually be a cliche.

And actual Tolkienesque Elves - immortal beings who show something semi-divine by virtue of the grace of the gods and whose magic is mainly non-obvious, being more of enhanced senses and items - that's something I don't see much of. I think most elves we see owe more to the D&D tradition of them.

I'm all up for people sticking their own stamp on things. But I think people's conceptions of elven roles in fantasy is stuck in the past and fairly limited visions of what Tolkienesque means. 

And I think people are going to have to work really, really hard if they want to avoid the echoes of what's gone before. Fair play to WooHooMan - he's managed it. If the OP wants to manage it though, he'll have to do a lot of thinking.


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## Ban

Peat said:


> elves in space, sharp suits and race cars,



Can you tell me what story these elves are from, because that sounds like my kind of sci-fi. If they listen to smooth jazz, live in art deco houses and talk about fighting the commies, then my dream of a 50's space opera with elves has finally become a reality.


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## WooHooMan

Banten said:


> If they listen to smooth jazz, live in art deco houses and talk about fighting the commies, then my dream of a 50's space opera with elves has finally become a reality.



Smooth jazz was more of an 80's thing.  They were listening to cool jazz in the 50's.
I know this is a fantasy setting we're talking about but come on, that kind of anachronism would throw readers off pretty badly.



SeverinR said:


> Tropical island elves? Why not.



I did a setting based on Polynesia.  While researching, I found that the Maori had an equivalent to elves called patupaiarehe or turehu.  They also had Dwarves called menehune and Orc-type-guys called nawao or ponaturi.

Isn't that interesting?  Tolkien's set-up for multiple races was apparently so popular that even Maori in the Middle Ages had a version of it.  Those medieval Maori should have been more concerned about avoiding cliches.


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## Ban

WooHooMan said:


> Smooth jazz was more of an 80's thing.  They were listening to cool jazz in the 50's.
> I know this is a fantasy setting we're talking about but come on, that kind of anachronism would throw readers off pretty badly.



That cool jazz sounds pretty smooth to me.

But thanks, if I ever get around to making that 50's space opera I will remember the correct sort of jazz for my elves to groove to in their discos.


(Yeah I did that on purpose. I know I am a horrible person)


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## WooHooMan

Banten said:


> But thanks, if I ever get around to making that 50's space opera I will remember the correct sort of jazz for my elves to groove to in their discos.



I want to see 70's elves now.  Elves in bell bottoms with afros, getting down and discovering the greatest magic of all: funk.  
That sounds fun.


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## TheCatholicCrow

Banten said:


> That cool jazz sounds pretty smooth to me.
> 
> But thanks, if I ever get around to making that 50's space opera I will remember the correct sort of jazz for my elves to groove to in their discos. (Yeah I did that on purpose. I know I am a horrible person)



Nothing wrong with a bit of Disco, but Smooth Jazz sucks. 

It Don't Mean a Thing if it Ain't Got that Swing (haha ... Jazz joke) Moving on. You'll be looking more at stuff like Duke Ellington, Ella Fitzgerald, Luis Armstrong, The Rat Pack, John Coltrane (if you're into Sax), Thelonius Monk, and of course, Miles Davis (If you've never heard his album "Kind of Blue" - what are you doing with your life? Open another tab right now and put it on. It's available on Spotify & probably YouTube as well.)  Yeah so ... I'm guessing what you meant was something like Miles Davis' Generique.

Take it from a trumpet player ... Stay away from electronic or "smooth" jazz ... or anything with a flute. If they play it in a public restroom or elevator, it's because that's where it belongs ... kind of like hotel art doesn't belong in the Louvre. Smooth is something people tolerate but nobody really likes it. And now you know...  

Let me know if you ever get around to writing that piece. I love and adore historical settings.


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## TheCatholicCrow

WooHooMan said:


> I want to see 70's elves now.  Elves in bell bottoms with afros, getting down and discovering the greatest magic of all: funk.
> That sounds fun.



Funny because what I was imagining was an Elf Soul Train ... getting groovy to some Donna Summers ... or maybe The Commodores. Before my time but it sounds glorious.


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## Miskatonic

I just ditched anything regarding elves or elf-like creatures and went with my own spin on angels and fallen angels as the "elder" race. They are not called that but you get the idea.


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## Ban

TheCatholicCrow said:


> Nothing wrong with a bit of Disco, but Smooth Jazz sucks.
> 
> It Don't Mean a Thing if it Ain't Got that Swing (haha ... Jazz joke) Moving on. You'll be looking more at stuff like Duke Ellington, Ella Fitzgerald, Luis Armstrong, The Rat Pack, John Coltrane (if you're into Sax), Thelonius Monk, and of course, Miles Davis (If you've never heard his album "Kind of Blue" - what are you doing with your life? Open another tab right now and put it on. It's available on Spotify & probably YouTube as well.)  Yeah so ... I'm guessing what you meant was something like Miles Davis' Generique.
> 
> Take it from a trumpet player ... Stay away from electronic or "smooth" jazz ... or anything with a flute. If they play it in a public restroom or elevator, it's because that's where it belongs ... kind of like hotel art doesn't belong in the Louvre. Smooth is something people tolerate but nobody really likes it. And now you know...
> 
> Let me know if you ever get around to writing that piece. I love and adore historical settings.



All those names are coming back to me 
I used to be really into jazz in my early teens, but haven't returned to listen to that sort of music ever since. I don't see why I shouldn't do that sometime.

On the topic of smooth jazz. I think it is a shame that a genre of jazz prefaced with "smooth", is perhaps the least cool jazz out there. What a cruel world we live in...

And thanks for the offer CatholicCrow. I actually think I will start a topic on this very soon in the research section. People seem to be really interested in the idea and I fully agree. Most of my writing was lost a while ago so this topic might be the one to get me back to it.


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## WooHooMan

Miskatonic said:


> I just ditched anything regarding elves or elf-like creatures and went with my own spin on angels and fallen angels as the "elder" race. They are not called that but you get the idea.



Interestingly, I've been doing the same thing, more or less.  I haven't called them "angels" but they're clearly meant to be angels, wings and all.
I wonder if that's going to be the next big cliche.


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## DragonOfTheAerie

WooHooMan said:


> Interestingly, I've been doing the same thing, more or less.  I haven't called them "angels" but they're clearly meant to be angels, wings and all.
> I wonder if that's going to be the next big cliche.



Uh oh, I have a race with wings. :/


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## WooHooMan

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Uh oh, I have a race with wings. :/



You better change it.  You want to be original, don't you?


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## Miskatonic

WooHooMan said:


> Interestingly, I've been doing the same thing, more or less.  I haven't called them "angels" but they're clearly meant to be angels, wings and all.
> I wonder if that's going to be the next big cliche.



Mine aren't meant to be angels in the typical sense, they are just the first race of beings. It's also taking place in a world with multiple gods.


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## WooHooMan

Miskatonic said:


> Mine aren't meant to be angels in the typical sense, they are just the first race of beings. It's also taking place in a world with multiple gods.



Mine aren't the first race, probably (though they are super old) and there are no gods (for sure) in my setting.  But still - ancient, pale, winged humanoids that have a penchant for beauty, magic and glory.
Really, it makes sense for "angels" to fill this niche than elves considering most mythological elves tended to be mischief makers or craftsmen.


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## Peat

Banten said:


> Can you tell me what story these elves are from, because that sounds like my kind of sci-fi. If they listen to smooth jazz, live in art deco houses and talk about fighting the commies, then my dream of a 50's space opera with elves has finally become a reality.



Not all in the same story alas. But someone should write that. Write it yourself!


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## Miskatonic

WooHooMan said:


> Mine aren't the first race, probably (though they are super old) and there are no gods (for sure) in my setting.  But still - ancient, pale, winged humanoids that have a penchant for beauty, magic and glory.
> Really, it makes sense for "angels" to fill this niche than elves considering most mythological elves tended to be mischief makers or craftsmen.



Elves and Dwarfs in Norse mythology are definitely different than you average fantasy variety.

The "angels" in my story were basically created more as astral bodies that could travel through space and were sent to find a planet suitable for the gods to use to create their first world when the cosmos first manifested. Once it was established they were given a physical body to dwell in, and then "ruled" over things. At least until problems arose.


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## ChasingSuns

As said before, don't worry too much about avoiding cliches. I will read the most cliche story if it's a well-written story with compelling characters. That being said, if you really want to try something new, I think that the advice of changing specific aspects of elves can be really helpful. I love using real life civilizations for my fantasy races. There's an elf-like race in my current story that is heavily based on a combination of the Roman Empire and the Han Dynasty. The Maori, as mentioned before, are also amazing to draw inspiration from for many things. If you want some ideas, think about the environment that you want your elves to live in. Take that kind of environment and look up cultures that have lived in similar conditions. You can do the same for culture as well. In fact, the elves could have basically all of the same traits as Tolkien's elves, but have a very different culture all together. Hopefully some of this helps


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## Brithel

Chesterama said:


> Also, science hasn't been able to definitively prove that skin color and sun intensity are related. Look at the indigenous people living in northern climates. Alaska Natives, for example, have dark skin. Just throwing that out there. But I agree, elf skin would act much differently.



Wouldn't that be explained by the large quantities of snow and ice that would reflect the light? People going to Antartica have to where sunglasses due to the bright glare of the ice. 
Also at extreme lattitudes for half the year there the days are extremely long, sometimes so that the sun never sets for weeks/months (and of course the same occurs with night the other half of the year).
Of course I'm no scientist so I can't say if any of that has an effect, nor do I know if many people live that far north (as Alaska is quite a large place and I imagine most people live concentrated in the southern most regions) for it matter anyway.


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## Jess

No one has written from your mind and heart. That's something that has always stuck with me. What do your elves look like? I agree with what WooHooMan said about your thinking being a little backwards. It's pretty much impossible to avoid cliches entirely. I think I get what you mean though, you don't want your work compared to Tolkien. I often panic that my ideas are going to be taken as original because the fantasy genre has been done and done again. But you've got your own voice. So go ahead and write about your Elven Princess and see where her story takes you. In the end you can always give it to someone you trust to read over it and see if it reminds them too closesly of work that has already been done but I suspect that it will be beautifully original like you.


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## Laurence

If you want elves that you don't want to be how people imagine elves then why call them elves? You obviously want something about them to be similar. Work out what, then you can make sure nothing else about them is.


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## WooHooMan

Why are people still responding to the original post?  This thread should have derailed into talking about jazz and disco elves.
That's more interesting than thirty different shades of "don't avoid cliches unless you do avoid them in which case, follow your heart or something".



Miskatonic said:


> The "angels" in my story were basically created more as astral bodies that could travel through space and were sent to find a planet suitable for the gods to use to create their first world when the cosmos first manifested. Once it was established they were given a physical body to dwell in, and then "ruled" over things. At least until problems arose.



"Angels" in my setting are the physical incarnations of incorporeal bodies traveling through space before settling on the only planet that could facilitate them.  Once the "angels" settled, they stabilized into their usual humanoid bodies and decided they were most qualify to "rule over things".  This caused issues when humans said "no".

So...it looks like one of us are going to have to change our story.  I mean, what if someone accused one of us as being unoriginal?  That would be bad...for some reason.


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## DragonOfTheAerie

Well, if you're writing about jazz and disco elves, you've definitely avoided cliched elves.


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## Ban

WooHooMan said:


> Why are people still responding to the original post?  This thread should have derailed into talking about jazz and disco elves.



Gee whiz, that's a swell idea! So let's get groovy with it, you dig?




(I am so, so sorry for that)


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## SeverinR

WooHooMan said:


> Why are people still responding to the original post?  This thread should have derailed into talking about jazz and disco elves.
> That's more interesting than thirty different shades of "don't avoid cliches unless you do avoid them in which case, follow your heart or something".
> 
> .



I think you meant 50 shades of (Gray) elf.  lol.


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## Peat

People shouldn't talk about the jazz listening elves, as it makes me sad no one's written about 1950s elves fighting communism. Honestly one of the greatest ideas I've ever seen on the internet.


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## Ban

Peat said:


> People shouldn't talk about the jazz listening elves, as it makes me sad no one's written about 1950s elves fighting communism. Honestly one of the greatest ideas I've ever seen on the internet.



Well I have decided that I will write about my 50's space elves while an ongoing cold war with the communists is happening. Currently I am writing the outline for the story. So about a decade  from now you might be able to read about it.


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## Peat

Banten said:


> Well I have decided that I will write about my 50's space elves while an ongoing cold war with the communists is happening. Currently I am writing the outline for the story. So about a decade  from now you might be able to read about it.



Write faster plz.


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## Chessie

Laurence said:


> If you want elves that you don't want to be how people imagine elves then why call them elves? You obviously want something about them to be similar. Work out what, then you can make sure nothing else about them is.


Precisely. It's also the very frustrating part about changing up elves: will fantasy readers accept your version of things? Like right now I'm struggling with why an elven lord would marry a human. That's absolutely a rarity given all we've grown up reading. So then my heroine had to also become an elf because I don't feel like coming up with a lame explanation as to why the hero would choose a human--someone who is going to die waaaay before he does--to be his lifemate. There are just some things I'm willing to change about elves but when it comes to social/relationship customs, I tend to just honor what's come before my time.


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## MineOwnKing

Chesterama said:


> Precisely. It's also the very frustrating part about changing up elves: will fantasy readers accept your version of things? Like right now I'm struggling with why an elven lord would marry a human. That's absolutely a rarity given all we've grown up reading. So then my heroine had to also become an elf because I don't feel like coming up with a lame explanation as to why the hero would choose a human--someone who is going to die waaaay before he does--to be his lifemate. There are just some things I'm willing to change about elves but when it comes to social/relationship customs, I tend to just honor what's come before my time.



Um...Beren and LÃºthien, Elrond...


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## Chessie

MineOwnKing said:


> Um...Beren and LÃºthien, Elrond...


Lol I know, but it still doesn't make sense. :/ At least not in my world.


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## Peat

Chesterama said:


> Precisely. It's also the very frustrating part about changing up elves: will fantasy readers accept your version of things? Like right now I'm struggling with why an elven lord would marry a human. That's absolutely a rarity given all we've grown up reading. So then my heroine had to also become an elf because I don't feel like coming up with a lame explanation as to why the hero would choose a human--someone who is going to die waaaay before he does--to be his lifemate. There are just some things I'm willing to change about elves but when it comes to social/relationship customs, I tend to just honor what's come before my time.



Tbf, people marry terminal cancer victims, which can be seen as roughly the same thing. They also marry prisoners with life sentences and bridges. Bridges are the big inanimate stone things that go over rivers btw, not any obscure slang for anything else.

Compared to which, an elven lord marrying a human makes the most perfect of sense.

p.s. Pedantically speaking, neither of Beren or Elrond are examples of elven lords marrying humans; in fact, I don't think there is a single example of it in Tolkien's work. A fair amount of human lords marrying elves, but zero the other way about.


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## Ban

Chesterama said:


> Precisely. It's also the very frustrating part about changing up elves: will fantasy readers accept your version of things? Like right now I'm struggling with why an elven lord would marry a human. That's absolutely a rarity given all we've grown up reading. So then my heroine had to also become an elf because I don't feel like coming up with a lame explanation as to why the hero would choose a human--someone who is going to die waaaay before he does--to be his lifemate. There are just some things I'm willing to change about elves but when it comes to social/relationship customs, I tend to just honor what's come before my time.



Maybe you can make humans more fertile in your world than elves. For an elven lord desperate for an heir, it would be very beneficial to marry a human. Otherwise you can make your humans stronger, more resistant, more enduring. An elven lord would gain prestige from marrying someone like that and his children would be healthier.

Having a good heir was extremely important for human nobility, so I assume it would be for elven nobility as well.


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## Chessie

Banten, thank you for those ideas. I've been marinating on the fertility one and you just added on to its possibility. 

And to answer this:



Peat said:


> p.s. Pedantically speaking, neither of Beren or Elrond are examples of elven lords marrying humans; in fact, I don't think there is a single example of it in Tolkien's work. A fair amount of human lords marrying elves, but zero the other way about.


You're right. There _aren't_ any examples of this and we can only speculate as to why that is. I read an interesting article about how it wouldn't be/seem right for male elves to give up their immortality for a human--the way it's been done with the reverse gender, and that they would be reducing themselves in status/class/rank to marry a human. But elves in my world aren't immortal so...that's not really a problem.


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## Queshire

I think you should look at this from the perspective of the Elf. The reasons behind why he would marry a human is a good opportunity to establish his personality. Maybe the human (or one of her ancestors) saved his life sometime in the past? Maybe he just finds humans more interesting than those old boring elves. Maybe it's a political move to counter the build up of political power in a rival noble family which would have been completed should he be forced to marry a representative of that family?


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## Ireth

Chesterama said:


> Banten, thank you for those ideas. I've been marinating on the fertility one and you just added on to its possibility.
> 
> And to answer this:
> 
> 
> You're right. There _aren't_ any examples of this and we can only speculate as to why that is. I read an interesting article about how it wouldn't be/seem right for male elves to give up their immortality for a human--the way it's been done with the reverse gender, and that they would be reducing themselves in status/class/rank to marry a human. But elves in my world aren't immortal so...that's not really a problem.



Actually, there IS one example of an elven lord falling in love with a human woman in Tolkien's works; it just didn't end with them being married. Aegnor, one of the Noldor of Tirion, followed the host of Feanor to Middle-earth and there fell in love with Andreth, a human woman of the house of Beor. She returned his feelings, but they could not act upon them, since Aegnor was soon killed in the battle known as Dagor Bragollach.

Source: Aegnor - The One Wiki to Rule Them All - Wikia


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## Peat

Well-ll... we know that classically, elves are all lithe and skinny and shiznit, right? So maybe its as simple at this...








Ya hears me?! All you other leaf munchers can't deny!


Also, my money on Tolkien's gender imbalance in Elf-Hooman relationships (thanks for providing the exception Ireth) is simply a blind spot on gender and no intentional meaning. Even when we get an Elf lusting after a human, the male actor is the most important. So, with male actors being the most important, and Elf-Human relationships generally being a sign that this Human is Super Cool, stands to reason there'd be an imbalance.


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## Chessie

^^ HA for reals! Dear reader, the elf likes curves. Word.


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## DragonOfTheAerie

Please please please please write the 1950's disco elves story. I will read the living heck out of it.


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## MineOwnKing

Wouldn't LÃºthien be considered more important?

She defeated Sauron and lulled Melkor to sleep.


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## Peat

MineOwnKing said:


> Wouldn't LÃºthien be considered more important?
> 
> She defeated Sauron and lulled Melkor to sleep.



The Tale of Beren and Luthien starts with Beren entering Doriath after the death of his warband and seeing Luthien. He is the prime mover in the tale, he is the Main Character. He's not the most important in the story, but he is the most important to the story.

That's how I see it. YMMV and all that.


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## MineOwnKing

Well, isn't the Silmarillion omniscient? 

I never thought of it as one character's POV. 

Beren was saved by LÃºthien so I would say her character is at least more interesting. 

She was created with Tolkien's wife in mind so I would think from the author's perspective she was the center piece of the story.


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## Ireth

MineOwnKing said:


> Well, isn't the Silmarillion omniscient?
> 
> I never thought of it as one character's POV.



Yes, it's a collection of stories dating from Creation itself, much like the Bible.



MineOwnKing said:


> Beren was saved by LÃºthien so I would say her character is at least more interesting.
> 
> She was created with Tolkien's wife in mind so I would think from the author's perspective she was the center piece of the story.



I would think so too. And Beren was based on Tolkien himself, naturally.


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## Ban

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Please please please please write the 1950's disco elves story. I will read the living heck out of it.



Disco was not really a thing in the fifties...


Buuuut I like disco elves, so I will see what I can do. I'm in the very very early stages of writing this anyway, so why not. Maybe 80's culture could be a counterculture in the futuristic fifties.


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## Peat

Having an Omniscient PoV =/= Not Having a Main Character

I am familiar with the creation story of Beren and Luthien (the names are on their tombstones for crying out loud) but that still does not change my opinion that, as written, the story is framed more about Beren and that makes him the MC. I'd agree that Luthien is the more interesting character but then if I had a pound for every time I thought the MC was not the most interesting character in a book I could buy a small Caribbean island.

Fair enough if anyone still disagrees but I suspect we'll continue to do so.


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## emmarowene

Everybody's made some pretty good points on here! You can work with cliches-- the fantasy genre sort of thrives off them, really-- but you just have to find a small way to take them and make them your own. If you *do* cross genres, for example, you have elves and science!! That's so cool! How often do we get to see that? Or, if you still feel the need to make your elves different, you can look back to the original Germanic and Nordic mythos Tolkien based his elves off of. There are lots of wikipedia pages about them


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## Writer 1 Gregory

Well, thanks; I've been busy getting my debut science fiction novel ready for publication so most of the projects I've been working on have been put on hold but I'm still working on them as I get time.


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## Writer 1 Gregory

Wow, coming back after about a year and I've found this thread is full of crazy ideas! Elves fighting in the cold war of the 1950s, Disco Elves (which would put them in 70s), Elves in space (I like that idea especially) and considering that I've lost the original Elf Princess manuscript perhaps I should try a different approach; the idea of putting Elves in space or in the 1950s as a sort of urban fantasy really appeals so maybe I should try a few urban fantasies and do a few space stories and see what happens...Many thanks to you all for your input; it's greatly appreciated.


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## Ban

Writer 1 Gregory said:


> Wow, coming back after about a year and I've found this thread is full of crazy ideas! Elves fighting in the cold war of the 1950s, Disco Elves (which would put them in 70s), Elves in space (I like that idea especially) and considering that I've lost the original Elf Princess manuscript perhaps I should try a different approach; the idea of putting Elves in space or in the 1950s as a sort of urban fantasy really appeals so maybe I should try a few urban fantasies and do a few space stories and see what happens...Many thanks to you all for your input; it's greatly appreciated.



And this reminds me that I still haven't written my 50s space elf story. I should get on that sometime and I'm interested to see what sort of story you will write around these prompts. Please do share some snippets of your work when you"ve written a bit


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## Gurkhal

If you want to do Space Elves, just make sure it don't turn into an Eldar-clone.


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## Orc Knight

At least the Eldar knew how to have a bit of fun. May have went out of control, but still.


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## Writer 1 Gregory

Gurkhal said:


> If you want to do Space Elves, just make sure it don't turn into an Eldar-clone.


Dumb question: what's Eldar?


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## Gurkhal

Writer 1 Gregory said:


> Dumb question: what's Eldar?



The Eldar are a race of aliens in a very popular and well known SF setting called "Warhammer 40 000". I throw in a link to a wiki related to that setting. In short however they are "elves in space". There are also Orcs and there used to be Dwarfs in this sci-fi settings but I think the Dwarfs have been retconned out of it by now.

Eldar - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum


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## Peat

Gurkhal said:


> The Eldar are a race of aliens in a very popular and well known SF setting called "Warhammer 40 000". I throw in a link to a wiki related to that setting. In short however they are "elves in space". There are also Orcs and there used to be Dwarfs in this sci-fi settings but I think the Dwarfs have been retconned out of it by now.
> 
> Eldar - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum



They're officially back in (Space Dwarfs that is), just not really seen.

I actually really like GW's Elves in Space. I think they're a nice balance of traditional Tolkienesque Elf with something different, along with some nice fluff and cool things. The idea of Aspect Warriors is cool and I've just realised possibly a big unintentional influence on what I'm doing. Should I ever get to writing fantasy Elves myself, I might steal a few ideas from the Eldar.

Might be a little obvious for Space Elves though... but hasn't stopped a lot of people!


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## Svrtnsse

Peat said:


> I actually really like GW's Elves in Space.


This reminded me that the first version of Starcraft was referred to as Orcs In Space: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/11423622782


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## Steerpike

Starcraft was basically a reworking (dare I say ripoff) of GW’s Warhammer 40k.


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## Orc Knight

More or less, yeah. But 40k's gone so insane at this point they decided to hold an End Times like they did in the original Warhammer Fantasy. Kind of.


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## Svrtnsse

Steerpike said:


> Starcraft was basically a reworking (dare I say ripoff) of GW’s Warhammer 40k.


I can't see anyone trying to argue against that


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## Peat

Svrtnsse said:


> I can't see anyone trying to argue against that



"This warhammer cost me 40k!"


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## Writer 1 Gregory

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Please don't worry about being uncliche. Supposed cliches and cliches for a reason: a lot of people like them.
> 
> Genre crossovers are awesome. I love them. Genres are mere limitations anyway...
> 
> Also, it annoys me when people try so hard to be "original" with a race or creature (mermaids, werewolves) and end up changing them so much they aren't mermaids or werewolves anymore; they might as well be something else.
> 
> i.e. the Twilight Werewolves who aren't actually werewolves?


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## Annoyingkid

It's difficult because you're being reactionary to what others have done instead of doing your own thing. At the end of the day, do you want to be you, or do you want to be The Anti-Tolkien? Because you're still defining yourself by someone else, just in the negative.


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