# Why YA?



## Laurence (Aug 5, 2016)

Firstly, what're your main reasons for writing it in the first place? It seems to me that it gives only limitations. Beyond being unable to write about grittier things, I imagine adults are less likely to enjoy YA fiction while I think most young teens and up are perfectly capable of/willing to pick up a non-YA book. 

Is it that you intend your book to be kids' gateway novel in to the world o' fantasy and therefore need your story to be less wordy and intimidating?

Secondly, what do YOU consider the cut-off point between YA fiction and (is there a term that encompasses everything else?) adult fiction? Any particular examples of books that are right on the edge and do editors and publishers usually like to push people one way or the other?


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## CupofJoe (Aug 5, 2016)

There are some very gritty YA stories out there. All subjects are and have been covered. I wouldn't put any topic outside the YA readership. It just has to be approached in a way that makes sense to those reading the stories.
Just look at the Harry Potter books. They are considered YA by some and have a lot of grim and disturbing story lines...


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## Russ (Aug 5, 2016)

Because done well it can be a license to print money?


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## glutton (Aug 5, 2016)

Laurence said:


> Is it that you intend your book to be kids' gateway novel in to the world o' fantasy and therefore need your story to be *less wordy and intimidating?*



I label a lot of my books as YA because I don't like to write in a 'wordy and intimidating' style and my MCs are often in the right age range or close enough to it.


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## valiant12 (Aug 5, 2016)

> Because done well it can be a license to print money?



This.

And some people prefer writing shorter books.


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 5, 2016)

As Russ said... Thars money in those YA words. Huge market, and a fairly natural niche for fantasy writers. Me? I loathe YA, but I do have one story that could be fit into a YA story, but it'd lose part of its appeal to me. On top of that, lots of folks now are growing up on YA, that's all many aspiring writers have really read. People tend to write what they've read. And YA appeal to a less read audience, much like movies have for years targeted this age group.. They haven't read/watched the same story 500 times yet, LOL. 

And frankly, there's a natural appeal because in my opinion, the writing form is easier. The trouble is, as with any gold rush, competition is extremely fierce where all the money is. Writers seeking a haul of cash look at YA, if you are looking for literary creds, YA is not the route to go, for the most part. Of course, fantasy makes for difficult literary creds anyhow, LOL. But, breaking into YA is extremely difficult from what I hear, and Sanderson reinforced that notion in his lectures.


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## FifthView (Aug 5, 2016)

My general tendency is to answer the question thus:  It's _easier_.  Easier to write and easier to read.

I do sincerely believe that some writers of YA–I don't believe all, but only some–do so because they can then use all the little shortcuts and simplicity that make it easier to write.  And, quicker.

But I'd also point out the comparative "easier."  It's not easy to write, at least to do well; but, easier.

In general, I don't think well-written YA is any less entertaining than other types. But since I'm generalizing...


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## Nimue (Aug 5, 2016)

To put in a more idealistic word for YA, there's something appealing about writing for young people: they can be very passionate, they're discovering new things, they can really become engrossed in literature.  Some of the best reading experiences I had when I was a teen, and a lot of those books continue to be my favorite comfort reads: the Abhorsen series, Tamora Pierce's books, Harry Potter.  There is certainly some market flooding of dystopian love-triangle sort of stuff, but I can't write off the whole genre.  There's something very fun and genuine about good YA.  I could see myself writing it at some point; after all, I don't much care for gore and grit, and I love drama and happy endings.  Heh.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 5, 2016)

Nimue said:


> To put in a more idealistic word for YA, there's something appealing about writing for young people: they can be very passionate, they're discovering new things, they can really become engrossed in literature.  Some of the best reading experiences I had when I was a teen, and a lot of those books continue to be my favorite comfort reads: the Abhorsen series, Tamora Pierce's books, Harry Potter.  There is certainly some market flooding of dystopian love-triangle sort of stuff, but I can't write off the whole genre.  There's something very fun and genuine about good YA.  I could see myself writing it at some point; after all, I don't much care for gore and grit, and I love drama and happy endings.  Heh.



Happy endings aren't very popular in YA at all...


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## Nimue (Aug 5, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Happy endings aren't very popular in YA at all...


I may be a little out of date on this.  Most of the YA I've read was written in the 90s.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 5, 2016)

Laurence said:


> Firstly, what're your main reasons for writing it in the first place? It seems to me that it gives only limitations. Beyond being unable to write about grittier things, I imagine adults are less likely to enjoy YA fiction while I think most young teens and up are perfectly capable of/willing to pick up a non-YA book.
> 
> Is it that you intend your book to be kids' gateway novel in to the world o' fantasy and therefore need your story to be less wordy and intimidating?
> 
> Secondly, what do YOU consider the cut-off point between YA fiction and (is there a term that encompasses everything else?) adult fiction? Any particular examples of books that are right on the edge and do editors and publishers usually like to push people one way or the other?



The assumption I keep running into, which I find incredibly annoying, is that YA is a watered down version of an adult novel (like adult fiction but with smaller words and no bad stuff), and that's totally wrong. The tone of your post is indicative of a condescending attitude toward books written for teens. 

"Why would someone write YA?" is a weird question for me. Why would someone write a children's book? why would someone write ANY book? People write YA because there are people that read and love it. Plenty of adults love YA novels. My grandmother loves YA novels and she's 66. I've read estimates stating that about half of YA books are read by adults. 

"unable to write about grittier things.." There are a whole world of authors who don't want to write graphic sex scenes, rape scenes, and extremely gory violence, and that's about all the YA genre would prevent you from. YA is far more mature than most people imagine. CupOfJoe mentioned Harry Potter as an example of a grittier YA novel, but Harry Potter is quite tame compared to what's out there. Teens aren't innocent. YA deals with rape, abuse, violence, drugs, and other difficult subjects on a regular basis. 

Young teens are capable of reading non-YA books. But there's the thing: _YA is written for them._ YA is YA because it's relatable to teens. Teens have a totally different perspective and experience than both children and adults. They're in the process of becoming who they were meant to be. They're getting stripped of their innocence, learning of the darkness of the world. YA deals with that which is unique to the teenage experience. Teens aren't big children and they aren't childish adults, either. Literature itself is built around the human experience. A unique experience has to have a unique literature. Thus, why YA has to exist. 

"gateway novel into the world of fantasy" What? This insinuates that YA novels have no value in of themselves as literature--instead, they are only to prepare teens for "real" literature. 

Wow. there's not much love for YA in ANY of these comments. 

It's totally true that there's lots of money in it. 

But...easier? Easier to read, maybe, but to write? Writers of children's books HATE the insinuation that children's books are easier to write and i'd imagine the same for YA writer's. As i said, it's a unique market with unique challenges. To write excellent YA you have to delve deep into what it means to be a teen. There are a ton of writers that assume all teens are stupid and innocent about reality and so obsessed with the opposite sex it takes priority over everything (ok, that last part might be a little true). The most popular YA books treat their teen characters basically as adults, but not fully formed yet--they haven't found their place in the world yet. 

YA definitely is where the money is. Part of this is because _YA has become mainstream_ and isn't just the "gateway" for young people who aren't ready for "real literature." 

Heck, i read "real literature" far more than i read YA and I find this thread upsetting. 

As for the OP's second question, there is an emerging niche market called "new adult" which appeals to people who like the style and themes of YA but find more adult content appealing, i.e. dealing with adult problems, and more explicit sex. Actually, i think it's mostly just the more explicit sex. 

YA is a gradient in terms of content, actually. You have 'lower' YA that will generally avoid the sex and grittiness, usually with protagonists ages 15-16, then you have 'upper' YA with the more mature content. Hunger Games and Twilight are probably on the  lower end. Harry Potter, which i keep hearing mentioned, is actually more of a Middle Grade than anything. It's hard to place because its audience is so wide (and the story evolves so much) but at the beginning it's actually something of a children's book. 

That said, Sturgeon's Law applies to YA as much as anything.


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## FifthView (Aug 5, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> To write excellent YA you have to delve deep into what it means to be a teen. There are a ton of writers that assume all teens are stupid and innocent about reality and so obsessed with the opposite sex it takes priority over everything (ok, that last part might be a little true).



Well and that's the problem.  From what I've seen, far too many writers doing YA–and I don't mean those best-selling authors, typically, but the stuff I run into when browsing the indies on Amazon–really do make the assumption that a simplistic, on-the-nose, caricature-filled approach is perfectly fine.  Or else, they don't know any better.


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## Holoman (Aug 5, 2016)

I think there are only two real differences between YA and adult fiction. And one isn't content. YA can be just as gritty and depraved as adult fiction.

But in general YA has
- Younger cast, in the age group the audience can relate to
- Simpler language, so that most teens can understand it without a Dickensian vocabulary

Apart from that I've not noticed a huge amount of difference.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 5, 2016)

Also, I would like to say that adults are no better at telling a good book from an awful one than teens are. Just look at the popularity of 50 Shades.


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 5, 2016)

When I say YA is easier, understand I separate writing from story-telling, too. They are blended, but, I can say Rowling is obviously a great story-teller who's writing meets her audience's expectations. I can't stand her writing, but I will assume the stories are good, LOL. In fairness, I will say the same about most big-selling fantasy writers. Most writing in most genre fiction is... not great. Romance, western, spy, fantasy, mystery... whatever. Genre fiction is more about story than anything else, while Children's, MG, NA, Adult, and YA are marketing categories, and sometimes a way for parents to (hopefully) keep an eye on what their kids are reading. That's fine, but it's also fine to understand that fiction targeted to younger audiences is going to get snubbed by older more literary folks. 

YA is not going to be considered as part of the higher literary canon, unless it is a literary book that happens to be YA, maybe... Rowling will be sneered at by a great many literary folks, this is just a fact. And why would she care? She can drown her sorrows in piles of cash, LOL. Fantasy will forever struggle to be counted amongst literary greats, how long before Tolkien was even grudgingly counted? and then only by some. Literary that happens to be fantasy, will get a bit more of a pass, but really, not much of one. YA fantasy? Sorry. Some people will move big successes like Potter on par with adult fantasy, but most older writers probably aren't going to do so, let alone lesser pieces of writing. And the real literary snobs? Forget about it. 

And just because someone doesn't like it being said it's easier, doesn't mean it isn't. Which writing style is easier to write, Where the Wild Things Are, If You Give a Mouse a Cookie (a brilliant children's book, I think), Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, or Blood Meridian? Maybe throw a Faulkner and Twain in there. Sorry, it's an escalation. None are easy, per se, but the difficulty levels grow.


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 5, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Also, I would like to say that adults are no better at telling a good book from an awful one than teens are. Just look at the popularity of 50 Shades.



There's a logical fallacy here somewhere, if this statement is to be extrapolated.


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## Laurence (Aug 5, 2016)

Apologies, I didn't mean to sound condescending. The reason I want to know what makes people choose to write YA is because I'm undecided on whether my WIP will be or not. I suppose wanting to/being able to connect with teens is the main criteria (other than wonga).

This is why I also asked for examples of books that are on the cusp as I feel like my WIP will be too.

Can anyone link to or summarise any grittier YA novels?


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 5, 2016)

Plots will tend to be more linear and with fewer POV characters, from what I understand, in particular when comparing fantasy age groups. But older YA is going to be different than younger YA, too. A lot of this has to do with the trend of first person YA books, where books with more than one, or maybe two, FP POV's get annoying to read. And while they can be just as violent and disturbing and sexual (for the most part) the underlying theme of YA stories tends to fit the life period of the young adults marketing is after.



Holoman said:


> I think there are only two real differences between YA and adult fiction. And one isn't content. YA can be just as gritty and depraved as adult fiction.
> 
> But in general YA has
> - Younger cast, in the age group the audience can relate to
> ...


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## Laurence (Aug 5, 2016)

I think what's really behind my question is that I just don't understand how you decide your cut off point. 

I didn't ask why someone would write children's literature because that's a completely different kettle of fish, whereas, personally, I think a lot of teens have the same emotions, issues and thrills as adults, so I feel like there's not much call for splitting the two up. Just scrub the Dickensian language from the whole lot!


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 5, 2016)

You'll notice that a lot of themes in YA parallel real experiences that are common to all teens. a lot of YA characters' goals revolve around finding freedom or finding identity. Almost all, in fact. This is why dystopia is so popular in YA; teens relate to characters struggling to reconcile their personal identity with what society says they "should" be. Also, romance subplots are strong, and it's not just for wish-fulfillment reasons: romantic/sexual pursuits are beginning to become a part of the target audience's life, and teens relate to the experiences of characters who are discovering love and sexuality. 

The first person perspective is popular, probably because it's more personal. (I write in first person because I like the intimacy of it. I like to be able to hear my characters' voices and see the world directly through their perspectives. The story is filtered heavily through the lens of the character's perspective and I like that.) The present tense is also used a lot, but I think this is a fad copying the Hunger Games more than anything.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 5, 2016)

So, I guess you would say teens are a group different from both adults and children.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 5, 2016)

Demesnedenoir said:


> There's a logical fallacy here somewhere, if this statement is to be extrapolated.



Probably. Just saying, just as there is a huge market for teens with bad taste, there is a huge market for adults with bad taste. Any given book for the adult market is not going to be better inherently. 

Quality is relative, too. A book is only as good as it works well for the audience.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 5, 2016)

As for YA being easier to write...I should clarify some things. The writing style is simpler (generally), but that doesn't mean writers are enabled to write lower quality material (I know there's a better way to put it, I just can't think of it right now). 

Also, it should be mentioned that the classic works you mentioned don't represent adult fiction at all. Esteemed literary masterpieces are in a whole other category than mainstream pulp and don't represent the adult market. 

The main reason I don't consider YA easier to write is because the market has its own challenges. The YA market plays by different rules than the adult market. What works in one won't work in the other. Many adult authors have no idea whatsoever what it's like to be a teenager (even though they were one once, presumably.) Or, if they do remember, they're not able to channel it enough to crystallize and experience very different from their own. Children's books are even harder--lots of people don't even remember their childhood. Many people try to write YA with no idea of how actual teenagers think, talk and act. (No one actually says "OMG" or "LOL" in a conversation. Seriously.) Trying to write for a group of people you aren't a part of is going to be hard, and requires a little stepping outside of yourself.

YA is not just "adult books but cleaned up and dumbed down." It is a whole other creature.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 5, 2016)

Grittier YA books? I'll work on a list.


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## skip.knox (Aug 5, 2016)

@Laurence, and I guess everyone else as well, I distinguish between two kinds of YA writers.

One decides to write a YA story from the get-go. This is the type who is looking to find a healthy market and make some dough. Or, to be a little kinder, the writer who decides to write YA as a kind of writing exercise, just to explore a new genre. Or, indeed, who writes one because s/he has a child or nephew or other young person for whom they wish to write something special.

The other kind decides first to write a story. It has the elements it has. Then, either that person's agent (lucky devil) or the person themselves, must decide how to market this completed story. And concludes that it belongs on the YA shelf at the bookstore, or gets YA tags at Amazon.

None of those authorial decisions are inherently reprehensible. There are no bad genres, only bad writing.

If you have written a story and now you wish to market it, and you honestly don't know how, start researching. There is a *ton* of material out there. Specifically, there are lots of forums dedicated to YA where you can submit a first chapter or two. Those folks will let you know if you're in their ballpark or not. Given the two genres of fantasy and YA, I'd say that YA is the more significant, so that's the box you'll need to check first. And remember, just because you market primarily to a YA audience does not mean, as people here have pointed out, you are cutting out other markets or that you need to.

Finally, a word of remembrance. Although it used to be called juvenile fiction, the category has a long and illustrious history. I didn't read Heinlein's juvenile stuff till I was a grownup (Podkayne of Mars, Have Space Suit Will Travel, Door into Summer, etc). I still enjoyed it. This goes all the way back to Robert Louis Stevenson, at least. And if you want to read a remarkably dark piece of juvenile fiction, try A Wind in Jamaica. No dystopian stereotypes there!


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## Miskatonic (Aug 6, 2016)

Like I said in another post, just because the book has violence, sex, cursing, etc., doesn't mean it's "adult". That's more of the ratings board's interpretation for marketing purposes. 

Themes in YA tend to be more often black & white or dumbed down so that the target audience can understand them. This doesn't mean the writing is bad but the level of sophistication where the content is concerned can suffer because of this handicap. It also doesn't mean all teens can't understand more complicated subjects, but they probably also read books that are focused on an older age group because they've possibly outgrown the more straightforward stuff. 

Also, if the books chosen for movie adaptations are any indicator, they are looking for the most bare bones stories that can easily be consumed by the target audience. Plenty of action, predictable romantic interactions, very basic interpretations of right and wrong, good and evil, etc. 

I have quite a few teenage characters in one of my stories but I'm not incorporating the idealized "coming of age" approach that you'd find in YA.


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## KC Trae Becker (Aug 7, 2016)

Some of us just prefer to write for people with most of their life ahead of them, instead of for people who are usually stuck in a rut.


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## Heliotrope (Aug 7, 2016)

Yeah, I also find this thread sort of offensive, in a strange way... 

I'm having trouble understanding all the hate for YA?  

I'm writing Middle Grades (which must make me the lowest of the low as far as intelligence, grittiness), and I'm not writing it because it is "easier" or "I wanted to try a new genre" or "I have a nephew that I'm trying to write something special for". 

I'm writing middle grades because I'm absolutely inspired by the imaginations, wonder, and excitement of kids ages 9-13. Yes, I teach middle school, so I see it every day, and yes, I take my kids to the library where it is a treasure trove of fantastic, gritty, dark, mind boggling deeply themed kids fantasy. 

People mostly know Harry Potter and Percy Jackson, but there are so many more fun, inspiring and wonderful books out there, like Narnia (obviously), The Hobbit is considered Middle Grades, Coraline, The Artemis Fowl books, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, A Wrinkle in Time, The Giver. 

For many young kids these will be their first introduction into fantasy, and there is something so special about these books that just can't be found in adult fantasy. A certain whimsy, a certain truth that just can't be found in adult fantasy. 

I feel like with kids and young teens everything is still possible. It could still be 'real' in some way that the Pevency children can go to Narnia, or Charlie can go to a magical chocolate factory, or Meg could go on an adventure to space to save her father. For kids this stuff can really exist and the stories are written in a special sort of way that is just not found in adult fantasy. 

I prefer it, personally. That is why I write it. I love knowing I'm sparking a kid's imagination. That is the reward for me.


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## Heliotrope (Aug 7, 2016)

And I don't like the assumption that YA is a 'dumbed down' version of adult fantasy. Where did that assumption come from? 

Read The Book Theif, a story of a young illiterate german girl during the Holocaust who has taken to stealing books from burn piles in the city. 

Or The Bar Code Tattoo, a story of a future where everyone's medical history and personal information is all in a tattoo on their wrist, and a girl who's father kills himself because he can't get a job because he "might be at risk for cancer." 

Or The Giver, a story of a boy who is chosen to protect the memories of the past, and who must rescue a baby from being incinerated because it doesn't fit into his rigid society. 

Or To Kill a Mockingbird (which, Yep, is categorized as YA). Which has some of the most beautiful themes on racism? 

Or Roll of Thunder, Hear my Cry, which won the Newberry Medal, about a black family during the depression struggling with racism. 

Or Monster, a book about an African American teenager on trial for felony murder in New York.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 7, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> Yeah, I also find this thread sort of offensive, in a strange way...
> 
> I'm having trouble understanding all the hate for YA?
> 
> ...



THIS. 

When you're a kid, the way things are isn't grounded in your mind yet. Much of the world is still unknown to you. Anything could be out there, somewhere. Anything could be real. 

YA and Middle Grade books make the reader believe in magic in ways that more "mature" stories...can't. 

I don't like the attitude that stories written for a younger audience are inherently inferior. Or, that no one would want to write for a younger audience just for the sake of writing a story. 

And...think about this. When you write a book for a kid or teenager, think about how much you could do for their life. Their identities aren't fully formed yet. Your book could help influence who they become. It could help them love reading. 

Regardless of how you personally feel about Harry Potter, think about all the kids who never would have picked up another book without it. Think of all the writers that were inspired by it in their childhood. 

The world would be a lot different.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 7, 2016)

MG books can be very dark and creepy, too. Some of Brandon Mull's books, which are rather dark in places, are some of my favorite books and they're technically MG.


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## Russ (Aug 7, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> I'm having trouble understanding all the hate for YA?



I must have missed it.  Do you mean in this thread?


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## Heliotrope (Aug 7, 2016)

Sorry, Russ, not everyone... there has been a TON of support on this thread in general, but I do sort of get this sense of "YA is a dumbed down version of adult fantasy, with shallow themes, simplistic writing style and no one would _actually_ want to write it unless they were forced to or needed some quick cash." 

lol. That's just the tone I'm getting here.

I do challenge anyone to try it. It is not easier, I can tell you that. It is really freaking hard actually (as my crit partners can tell you). Trying to achieve something that kids will find amusing/funny/entertaining is really hard. I find writing for adults to actually be much easier because, well, I _am_ an adult. I know what adults like. I know what adults can handle. I can write like an adult, using adult examples and adult jokes and adult dialogue and adult descriptions. I don't have to think "Oh, will my reader get this?" because I know that most adults will understand any references I make. 

Writing for kids is a totally different ball game. I have to know kid culture. I have to know what they like, how they relate to their world, what they find important enough to notice and it is very different then adults. Draft after draft I have kids read my stuff and "it's too serious Mrs. B," "Make it funnier," "What if the Captain was a horse Mrs. B, that would be awesome!" (Seriously, the Captain of the ship should be a horse? 

"Yes Mrs. B! A Pineapple eating horse!"... They all start laughing hysterically and rolling around in their desks...) 

Kids are strange. Writing for kids is freaking hard.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 7, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> Sorry, Russ, not everyone... there has been a TON of support on this thread in general, but I do sort of get this sense of "YA is a dumbed down version of adult fantasy, with shallow themes, simplistic writing style and no one would _actually_ want to write it unless they were forced to or needed some quick cash."
> 
> lol. That's just the tone I'm getting here.



I second that. And since

1. I read (and enjoy) YA 
2. I write YA 
3. I AM a YA 

i don't like it.


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## Ireth (Aug 7, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I second that. And since
> 
> 1. I read (and enjoy) YA
> 2. I write YA
> ...



Thirded. I read and write YA, though I'm an adult myself. I'd hate for someone to read my book and call its themes "shallow", since it deals with the importance of supporting/being supported by friends and family, and letting go of grudges and bigotry against people who are different from you.


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## Russ (Aug 7, 2016)

Gotcha.

Personally I don't look down on YA at all.  I have three good friends who write YA for a living, and two of them are making what I think is crazy good money at it.  All three of them are very intelligent people and I think excellent writers (although I might be biased), and one of them is amongst the most bad ass military guys I have ever had the pleasure to hang with.  Unfortunately none of them directly write fantasy (as I think of fantasy) so their work may not be representative of YA fantasy.

It certainly is different from adult genre or commercial fiction though.  The MC's  in my current WIP are in the 15-22 year old range but I would not call the work YA, because in the time the book is set those ages are full adults.

I think YA is a very modern phenomena, and a very healthy one.


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## Chessie (Aug 8, 2016)

I'm somewhat late to this discussion, which is a shame because it's pretty interesting. To be fair, I'm not a YA fan either. That's for two reasons:

1) YA is typically narrated in first person POV and we all know how I feel about that.
2) I prefer my fantasy with strong adult themes and a bit of sexy time thrown in there (not erotica levels though).

However, I totally disagree that YA is dumbed down because I've found it to be creative with deeply rich themes. Teenagers make for interesting characters and they don't usually  have the tainted view of life that us adults do, with plenty of emotional wounds that make us lazy and afraid of taking the hero's journey. 

Literature written for all ages is art in its own right. Currently, my son is reading the cat Warrior series and I've been reading along with him. I'd be lying if I said they weren't highly entertaining. I love reading with him and sharing in that childlike fantasy. 

One last point, my understanding is that most YA readers are actually adults. That should say something. Readers are smart and they vote with their pocketbooks. Writing for teens doesn't make you better/less than any other author out there. Writing a book is hard for all of us regardless of audience age. Every genre (and subgenre) comes with its own set of challenges so in the end, we're all in the same overcrowded boat up a creek without paddles.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 8, 2016)

Devouring Wolf said:


> I despise YA. I love the first three Harry Potter books and I think Mairelon the Magician by Patricia C. Wrede is YA (but I usually don't consider it so because its shelved as an adult book at my library), but for the most part I just can't read YA for a couple reasons, but I think the main one is that I was never like a regular teenager. My sister and I both never did normal teenage things and neither of us like YA. For awhile I found the assumptions YA authors tend to make about their audience kind of offensive, because as a teenager I wasn't like this but then I looked around and realized I'm the anomaly.  I don't relate to other people in my age group (which is the YA age group) why should I relate to books written for them?  Clearly it just wasn't written for me, but if that's your thing keep doing it.



I'm not that great at relating to others in my age group either. I feel like my complicated nerdy writer side is something most of my friends merely tolerate instead of embracing as a fundamental part of *me.* 

Then again, I do hate a lot of YA out there. (Probably because a lot of it is bad, Sturgeon's Law, remember? And I can't stand a bad book.) But I don't hate all of it. Just...a lot of it. 

I actually don't read that much YA. But many of my favorite books are YA (The Harry Potter series, the Giver). 

I don't hate all of any particular genre of grouping of books. Except textbooks. (Last year I had to take a chemistry class and I found myself crying in frustration at how badly written the textbook was. I cry a lot.) Christian books come close. I love everything C.S Lewis and G. K. Chesterton breathe on, but all other Christian fiction can be thrown out into the darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for all I care. Being a Christian, you would expect me to feel otherwise, but I have no patience for Christian fiction...I would explain with a long-winded rant, but that's a whole other topic. 

What was I talking about?


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 8, 2016)

Chesterama said:


> I'm somewhat late to this discussion, which is a shame because it's pretty interesting. To be fair, I'm not a YA fan either. That's for two reasons:
> 
> 1) YA is typically narrated in first person POV and we all know how I feel about that.
> 2) I prefer my fantasy with strong adult themes and a bit of sexy time thrown in there (not erotica levels though).
> ...



I love first person. That is, I love writing it. I like the intimacy, and my characters/narrators are snarky and sarcastic, so it can be pretty fun as well. I don't have any preference when reading. 

Just in the interest of making conversation, can you explain why you don't like first person? I've heard that sentiment expressed on here many times and I'm wondering why. In a good story I don't even notice the narration.


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## Chessie (Aug 8, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I love first person. That is, I love writing it. I like the intimacy, and my characters/narrators are snarky and sarcastic, so it can be pretty fun as well. I don't have any preference when reading.
> 
> Just in the interest of making conversation, can you explain why you don't like first person? I've heard that sentiment expressed on here many times and I'm wondering why. In a good story I don't even notice the narration.


It is about intimacy, isn't it? In that case, the best way I can explain it is that 1st POV feels like a person I just met getting in much too close during a conversation. Like my space is being invaded. I like being able to see the story for what it is, get immersed in it, and first person totally breaks that connection between me and story. I've turned down many a good plot line or interesting story because of it. Won't even go past the first page.

The reason I dig 3rd POV is because it allows you inside many people's heads and allows you to make your own assumptions about things. IRL, I like to get to know people slowly. So maybe it's all related for me.


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## Nimue (Aug 8, 2016)

My issue with first person is similar to the issue I have with present tense or constant asides to the reader in narration (often with snark or humor).  They close narrative distance, absolutely--but they are so often used as a simple shortcut to do so, particularly in bad writing.  So it's become associated with mediocre story in my head.  It also somehow gives me less of a sense of the POV character as a person--if in the haste to ingratiate them, the author neglects to establish them as a living, breathing being in their own world, rather than a mere narrative voice.

I like Chester's metaphor.  No, I don't want to be immediately in this snarky protagonist's head--I want to choose to come along with him.

That's not to say first person never works for me, far from it.  A couple of my favorite books/series are in first person, though far, far more are in third.  These books would be compelling from page one no matter what POV they were in, but first undoubtedly works best for them in specific ways.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 8, 2016)

Chesterama said:


> It is about intimacy, isn't it? In that case, the best way I can explain it is that 1st POV feels like a person I just met getting in much too close during a conversation. Like my space is being invaded. I like being able to see the story for what it is, get immersed in it, and first person totally breaks that connection between me and story. I've turned down many a good plot line or interesting story because of it. Won't even go past the first page.
> 
> The reason I dig 3rd POV is because it allows you inside many people's heads and allows you to make your own assumptions about things. IRL, I like to get to know people slowly. So maybe it's all related for me.



Huh. That's really interesting. 

I guess you would like to have objectivity when reading, while I like seeing the story through the filter of the character.


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## Chessie (Aug 8, 2016)

You're still able to see through the filter of the character in 3rd.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 8, 2016)

Chesterama said:


> You're still able to see through the filter of the character in 3rd.



Yeah, well. I wrote my Top Scribe entry in 3rd and when i use 3rd I typically feel detached. I don't like it much.


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## Chessie (Aug 8, 2016)

But just because _you_ don't like it much doesn't mean that a reader who enjoys 3rd person perspective doesn't feel connected to the story or the characters.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 8, 2016)

Chesterama said:


> But just because _you_ don't like it much doesn't mean that a reader who enjoys 3rd person perspective doesn't feel connected to the story or the characters.



Oh well. I suppose you can't have both.


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## Russ (Aug 8, 2016)

Third or perhaps tight third does seem to be the dominant form of writing in adult genre fiction today.

Many professional writers will tell you that writing good first is actually very hard due to its rather significant limitations, especially where complex plotting in involved, which is why I think you see here and there, mixed first and third to solve that problem.  But that takes a boatload of skill to carry off well, and the third has to be super tight.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 8, 2016)

Russ said:


> Third or perhaps tight third does seem to be the dominant form of writing in adult genre fiction today.
> 
> Many professional writers will tell you that writing good first is actually very hard due to its rather significant limitations, especially where complex plotting in involved, which is why I think you see here and there, mixed first and third to solve that problem.  But that takes a boatload of skill to carry off well, and the third has to be super tight.



I've already become familiar with the plot issues first can create. 

I have two narrators, though, so it's not that bad. What i will struggle with most is showing enough of what's going on with the antagonist to make things make sense, but not so much that it will ruin the story.


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## FifthView (Aug 8, 2016)

First and intimate limited third, from the POV of a teenager–who wants to relive that? 

Actually I've always maintained that having the novice's POV is beneficial for a fantasy writer because all the odd newness of the fantasy world can be experienced for the first time by both narrator and reader.  This is Harry Potter first discovering the wizarding world, coincidentally the reader's first discoveries in that world.  But young protagonists are only one type of possible novice.

Before I'd written what follows that em-dash above, I'd written something else and then deleted it.  This:  "–isn't that the definition of 'dumbing down the narrative?' "  This is only because I'm a cantankerous old man who can hardly enjoy popular music these days because, seriously, you have to be a novice just discovering the world, love, heartbreak, partying all night, etc., to enjoy the themes of popular music.  Even classic rock and roll, which I listen to far more often, also tends to come from the same youthful frame of reference, which is very sad for me because I have greatly loved rock and roll in my life.  But more seriously:  Yes, young people are pretty stupid as a matter of course; or, let's call it a severe lack of experience.  I was one once, so I should know.


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## KC Trae Becker (Aug 9, 2016)

I find writing in 1st helps me get to know the character better. Then I shift it to 3rd later, because too many people complain about first person. I'm fine either way.

I like reading and writing YA, middle grade and even a few picture books, because the characters are more mutable. Adult fiction often focuses too much on substance abuse and bad sex lives. The main characters are usually angrier and more dismissive of other characters. They often feel like they already know everything or they are lost in self pity or self doubt. 

FifthView said, "First and intimate limited third, from the POV of a teenager–who wants to relive that?" 

I counter with 1st or 3rd from an angry, old, cantankerous person? I get plenty of that already. Sometimes, I even have to live with it in my own head. I prefer to remember when I and the people around me had more flexible viewpoints and more creative ideas.

(Confession, I too am a teacher and have an eleven year old who just happens to be two books into the Warriors series.)


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## SeverinR (Aug 9, 2016)

I think people think of "kids chapter books" when thinking young adult.
IMHO YA is basically writing PG13-NC17, maybe even skimming a fine wire next to R, for all material that encompasses those movie ratings. Violence, sex, foul language, blood and gore, etc.

The reason I feel my writings are most YA, is that they are coming of age stories.  They could be Adult fantasy, but I think writing YA opens it to two genre publishers, instead of just one.  

If you want to know what YA is, go to that section in a book store...if you still have a book store near you. lol.  
YA= Harry Potter, Hunger Games, Divergent, Twilight, 
All basically coming of age, where the "young Adult" have to figure out how to survive with little or no direct parental assistance.  
Also all the above have in common?  Top selling movies/books that adults of all ages enjoyed.


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 9, 2016)

YA isn't a genre, it's a marketing target, but ding ding ding, coming of age stories.

There is more to what makes any genre piece YA than rating and the bildungsroman, but those are common and important aspects.



SeverinR said:


> I think people think of "kids chapter books" when thinking young adult.
> IMHO YA is basically writing PG13-NC17, maybe even skimming a fine wire next to R, for all material that encompasses those movie ratings. Violence, sex, foul language, blood and gore, etc.
> 
> The reason I feel my writings are most YA, is that they are coming of age stories.  They could be Adult fantasy, but I think writing YA opens it to two genre publishers, instead of just one.
> ...


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## Miskatonic (Aug 10, 2016)

Demesnedenoir said:


> YA isn't a genre, it's a marketing target, but ding ding ding, coming of age stories.
> 
> There is more to what makes any genre piece YA than rating and the bildungsroman, but those are common and important aspects.



Exactly, and that's why we refer to certain types of books as YA. The ones that are being marketed at the Harry Potter, Twilight, etc., demographic.


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## FifthView (Aug 10, 2016)

Demesnedenoir said:


> YA isn't a genre, it's a marketing target, but ding ding ding, coming of age stories.
> 
> There is more to what makes any genre piece YA than rating and the bildungsroman, but those are common and important aspects.





Miskatonic said:


> Exactly, and that's why we refer to certain types of books as YA. The ones that are being marketed at the Harry Potter, Twilight, etc., demographic.



And I assume there's nothing intrinsically wrong with any approach that isn't targeting _me_.  This is just a statement of principle, vaguely considered, because....If something's not targeting me, then how can I be a reliable judge of it?

I did love the Harry Potter books, and I've always been a huge fan of those youth-becomes-hero coming-of-age stories that fill a niche in the fantasy genre, when they are well-written.  (Ah me and hyphens!)  But I do think, as I think Russ mentioned above, that it's entirely possible to use young protagonists in the fantasy genre without writing what is typically considered YA:



Russ said:


> The MC's  in my current WIP are in the 15-22 year old range but I would not call the work YA, because in the time the book is set those ages are full adults.



I don't think it's merely a matter of how the fantasy world matures individuals quickly, although that may play a part.

So these hero journeys that begin at an early age may or may not be YA, on the whole.

I think fantasy might have a peculiar intersection with the topic at hand.  There's often a sense of wonder and dread, encounters with the unknown that are similar to the way all individuals experience life as they grow and mature.  (Here, I'm strongly reminded of the movie _Finding Neverland_....Or just look at Netflix's _Stranger Things_ and how the three different age groups are handled....)  If I had to "explain" my enjoyment of Harry Potter vs other examples of YA, I'd probably focus on that sense of wonder and Rowling's ability to deliver it in an unobtrusive and engaging way with lots of creativity.  But I can experience those things in works that are not specifically targeted at the YA market, also.


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 10, 2016)

Not marketed toward me, I think that sooo often when I see Miller Lite ads from years past at least... I don't see many ads these days with the DVR, LOL. I would watch those ads and think, "nope, they aren't targeting me! That was a horrible ad that makes me want to NOT drink their product." I happen to have similar feelings about Potter, I can't read the books, made it through a couple chapters before I gave up, and the only reason I got that far was because so many people loved it. Heck, even the movies were a labor for me to watch, think I saw the first two full through. But as I've said, Rowling must be a great story teller, and I've no doubt they are great stories for those who love them, they aren't for me, so I wll pick on them... But my ribbing is good natured, much like my not picking on Brandon Sanderson, LOL. Or I pick on romance novels... Except my wife might whack me over the head if I do that too much. So, nothing wrong with any age group or genre, but we're humans who will pick on things.




FifthView said:


> And I assume there's nothing intrinsically wrong with any approach that isn't targeting _me_.  This is just a statement of principle, vaguely considered, because....If something's not targeting me, then how can I be a reliable judge of it?
> 
> I did love the Harry Potter books, and I've always been a huge fan of those youth-becomes-hero coming-of-age stories that fill a niche in the fantasy genre, when they are well-written.  (Ah me and hyphens!)  But I do think, as I think Russ mentioned above, that it's entirely possible to use young protagonists in the fantasy genre without writing what is typically considered YA:
> 
> ...


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 10, 2016)

This brings up a weird one... Literary YA, I'm not enough of a YA person to know, but I presume these are more densely written, more abstract might be the better description, and mostly sticking to modern stories and themes in a realistic way. 

What constitutes literary in adult fiction is always an interesting discussion, but I've never bothered to glance at a "literary YA" to see what's up there.



Miskatonic said:


> Exactly, and that's why we refer to certain types of books as YA. The ones that are being marketed at the Harry Potter, Twilight, etc., demographic.


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## FifthView (Aug 10, 2016)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Except my wife might whack me over the head if I do that too much.



No one likes being hit over the head. :eek2:

For me, a type of hit-me-over-the-head targeting that I don't particularly like in some YA approaches doesn't concern how the young protagonists are portrayed but how the adults are portrayed.  When all the adults are 

A) Absent
B) Oblivious
C) Non-evil antagonists
D) Evil villains
E) All of the above,

then it's a little tedious and/or unrealistic.  Harry Potter had a number of adults who were none of the above, although some fell into the above categories.  GRRM's ASOIAF has young protagonists—heck, mama and papa Stark died but all the kids are coming of age—but it also has adult protagonists who play significant roles in the story.  (ASOIAF is not YA; I'm just using it as an example of non-YA stories that can incorporate young POV characters and coming-of-age themes.)

I've enjoyed MTV's _Teen Wolf_, shows like _Vampire Diaries_, and even the Twilight movies somewhat...but they grow a little tedious sometimes.  (I gave up watching VD.  TW I continue to watch despite a drop in quality in the later seasons, mostly just to see the unusual approach to supernatural themes.)  But these are largely examples of Adults Are Meh.  I mean, how many people in that town on Teen Wolf have to die from unexplained "animal-related" deaths before more adults become aware of the problem and the FBI or National Guard are sent in?

Then there are the young characters themselves.  People can be dying left and right in horrible ways, but there's always time to worry more about personal betrayals, love interests and feelings, and god forbid someone should seek out adults for guidance and help.  At least those stories set in our modern world might have a tiny bit of realism for the characters—i.e., first-world problems, entitled self-centered kids—but put the same sort of characters into a medieval setting and....?  

Aside from these things, but related, there's the myopic-world syndrome, where the entire rest of the world hardly exists and we have a microcosm of a handful of characters.  This is one of the things I don't like about _Arrow_ on CW.  Besides turning into a soap opera, it's the interbred-quality where the same characters keep showing up and fighting each other in ever new permutations, new alliances, etc.  But that tiny-world syndrome (here's me trying to find the appropriate term) also applies to those cases where the FBI, police forces, adults in general, and so forth seemingly do not exist.

I don't know.  Maybe these are only personal pet peeves, and I am not the target.


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 10, 2016)

The tendency for adults to be portrayed as flat stupid (in a lot of pop culture aimed at the youthful market, not simply YA books which I have minimal knowledge of) is kind of mind-boggling in a pandering way, or as you say, the adults just don't exist. 



FifthView said:


> No one likes being hit over the head. :eek2:
> 
> For me, a type of hit-me-over-the-head targeting that I don't particularly like in some YA approaches doesn't concern how the young protagonists are portrayed but how the adults are portrayed.  When all the adults are
> 
> ...


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## Queshire (Aug 10, 2016)

Demesnedenoir said:


> The tendency for adults to be portrayed as flat stupid (in a lot of pop culture aimed at the youthful market, not simply YA books which I have minimal knowledge of) is kind of mind-boggling in a pandering way, or as you say, the adults just don't exist.



Oh, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. I recently read the first book in Rick Riodan's take on Norse Mythology (the same guy that did the Percy Jackson series for greek mythology) and maybe it was just because Norse mythology is my favorite, but seeing how he portrayed the (adult) Norse Gods in that setting was rather disappointing.


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## Ireth (Aug 10, 2016)

I like to think I've avoided that in my own books. The MC's dad and uncle are actually secondary protagonists and viewpoint characters, and they fall under none of FifthView's criteria. Other adults exist who are either A, C, D or a combination (the villain's father being an example of "non-evil antagonist" and "absent", toward his son especially), but there are just as many who are helpful and supportive of the MC and her family. It's all a matter of balance, imo.


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## Heliotrope (Aug 10, 2016)

Demesnedenoir said:


> The tendency for adults to be portrayed as flat stupid (in a lot of pop culture aimed at the youthful market, not simply YA books which I have minimal knowledge of) is kind of mind-boggling in a pandering way, or as you say, the adults just don't exist.



Only because I've done a bunch of research into the market (and keep in mind, I'm doing MG, not YA... so slightly different), this is a pretty important trope for a reason and goes as far back as the trombone-voiced invisible adults in Charlie Brown. 

Think of it like technology. In any modern day horror or adventure story in order to achieve tension, the first thing the writers do is eliminate the technology... any ability that the characters have to access the outside world. So in a horror this means they will lose their cell phones or the computer system will go down, or it will be the technology itself that is the problem. Or, in large scale horror like The Walking Dead all technology will be eliminated completely. This gives the characters that sense of isolation, that inability to access help easily, the inability to band together in big numbers, etc... basically it creates more challenges = more conflict = more tension = more story. The same goes for outdoor adventure stories, wilderness survival stories, you get the idea. 

With kids, adults are the like the equivalent of technology. If kids can just turn to adults all the time, then where are the challenges? What is the conflict... "Mrs. Watson, Joey is teasing me." "Joey, go the principles office, you are suspended." THE END. 

Basic analysis but you get the idea. When a MG or YA story is filled with smart, competent adults then it takes the onus off of the young characters to do their own problem solving. They become passive instead of active, simpling asking for help from older, wiser adults all the time. When you give your story the Charlie Brown effect (eliminating the adults by making them either clueless, absent or downright invisible) then the story is focussed on the active participation of the young characters. Their choices, their mistakes, their obstacles, etc. 

Does that make sense? 

Many MG or YA books have amazing adult role models, but you will see that once the climax comes, just like in an adult horror or adventure story, something will happen that will eliminate that resource (like Dumbledoor's death) so that the young character is forced to act on their own. To take what they have learned and apply it independently without the help of their mentor.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 10, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> Only because I've done a bunch of research into the market (and keep in mind, I'm doing MG, not YA... so slightly different), this is a pretty important trope for a reason and goes as far back as the trombone-voiced invisible adults in Charlie Brown.
> 
> Think of it like technology. In any modern day horror or adventure story in order to achieve tension, the first thing the writers do is eliminate the technology... any ability that the characters have to access the outside world. So in a horror this means they will lose their cell phones or the computer system will go down, or it will be the technology itself that is the problem. Or, in large scale horror like The Walking Dead all technology will be eliminated completely. This gives the characters that sense of isolation, that inability to access help easily, the inability to band together in big numbers, etc... basically it creates more challenges = more conflict = more tension = more story. The same goes for outdoor adventure stories, wilderness survival stories, you get the idea.
> 
> ...



Heliotrope just explained it perfectly.


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## FifthView (Aug 11, 2016)

But in Harry Potter, the kids are not acting alone, not even after Dumbledor dies at the end of the penultimate book. Doesn't the final book start out with a wedding party, many adults assembled?  (Hope I am remembering correctly.)  And then at the end those members of the Order of the Phoenix and teachers of Hogwarts are fighting against Voldmort’s army at the school.  One memorable scene there has Ron’s mother slaying what's her name.  And throughout, it's understood that the Order is fighting, even if often off-screen.  So for me this is different than the ”Adults Are Meh” approach.


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## Holoman (Aug 11, 2016)

People are confusing Middle Grade with Young Adult.

Adults being useless is an MG trope, not a YA trope. This is for 8-12 year olds. You can see it clearly in things like Percy Jackson and the first couple of Harry Potters, where the protagonist is too young to really do anything contributory unless the adults are useless. If the adults in HP are too adept then Harry wouldn't even need to do a thing, the adults would have sorted out Quirrell and the basilisk. These are MG books, not YA.

It isn't possible to have a young protagonist that actually is instrumental in a story unless the adults on his side have some serious limitation meaning they can't solve the problem for him.

You can clearly see the shift when HP goes YA, and the adults stop being useless, when Harry actually has enough maturity and ability to challenge other adults in a believable way.


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## SeverinR (Aug 11, 2016)

Dah, I read the first line and was like, What is MG. So I went looking. Found it and came back and you pretty much defined it if I had read further.

One of the findings was a publisher that said he would reject manuscripts that didn't target the right audience, YA vs MG.  But he would definitely have canned HP. Because I do agree with you it does start out as MG, then progresses to YA.  (Of course, publishers/Lit agents are looking for a reason to get rid of most of the stuff cluttering their inbox/desk.)


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## Heliotrope (Aug 11, 2016)

FifthView said:


> But in Harry Potter, the kids are not acting alone, not even after Dumbledor dies at the end of the penultimate book. Doesn't the final book start out with a wedding party, many adults assembled?  (Hope I am remembering correctly.)  And then at the end, those members of the Order of the Phoenix and teachers of Hogwarts are fighting against Voldmort’s army at the school.  One memorable scene there has Ron’s mother slaying what's her name.  And throughout, it's understood that the Order is fighting, even if often off-screen.  So for me this is different than the ”Adults Are Meh” approach.



Yes, this is true. OK, let me explain using Stranger Things (because I know you are a fan). 

The writers of Stranger Things did a great job of writing for all audiences. 

If we were to dissect its major plots we would see that there is something for each age range. So the three young boys (middle schoolers *wink wink*) would be the MG plot. Nancy, Steve, and Jonothan would be the YA plot and Wynona Ryder and the Sheriff would be the adult plot. 

Notice in the MG plot adults are essentially non-existent or pretty clueless, or like you pointed out the evil-bad guys. In the Middle-Grade plot the only adults involved are Mike's mom and dad, who come and go and are totally clueless that there is a little girl hidden in their basement. They don't question Mike too much about stuff, and the writers set it up so that Mike and his friends are pretty much unable to turn to them for any support as they wouldn't believe them anyway. Even when the bad guys show up at his house he asks his mother if they "are having any work done" but he doesn't explain to her what the situation is. 

At the end (SPOILER ALERT) the cop and Winona Ryder help them with El, but then they leave them alone in the school to do their own thing, thus giving the writers the chance to give the kids their own battle. This is so classic MG. Parents are either non-existent or too far away to be of any use. This keeps the story revolving around the kids. 

Now, with Nancy and Steve and Jonothan, things are pretty much the same, though there is more of a focus on the relationship with Jonothan trying to look after his mother, and Nancy trying to navigate her relationship with Steve and her relationship with her mother. This is typical YA. The parents are roadblocks to the goal, but they also need protecting. Parents or adults are usually more actively involved (like at the end of Harry Potter) but when push comes to shove the teenagers must ultimately act on their own to get anything done, so the same things happens for them at the end of the show as for Mike and his gang. The parents are too far away to help, so Nancy, Steve and Jon are forced to fight the monster in the house alone.


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## FifthView (Aug 11, 2016)

Helio,

Those are accurate descriptions of what's happening in _Stranger Things_, but I don't think they are the whole story.

ST actually has active adults, although in this case it's only three helpful adults.  (I'm including the science teacher )  We can look at each individual plot thread, but not a single one of those threads is THE plot or THE story. 

And it's not uncommon for groups to break off and pursue their own objectives, even in non-YA stories.  How many stories featuring adults as MCs will have those adults beating their heads against uncaring or ineffectual or antagonistic police forces, friends, spouses, etc.?  It's not just a feature of YA fiction; I doubt it's actually absolutely required for YA.  IF we are only considering adults who are absolute buffoons vs adults who are Gary Stus and Mary Sues able to solve anything easily, then those may seem the only two options and #1 would be the obvious choice.  But adults are imperfect, lack information, make mistakes, have faults, and so forth, and I see no reason for eliminating them from the story in order to bolster YA stories.  (Not that good stories without believable populations of adults are impossible, however.)  However, as I wrote earlier, I may not be the ideal target for those marketing YA. 

MG stories are different, I think, if for no other reason than that realistic stories featuring characters in that age group are likely to be too horrific for those readers. I mean, there's a fantastic element.  What good is a slingshot and stones against....?

I like the way ST handled the three age groups.  But I don't want to spoil the show for anyone who hasn't watched it, which makes discussion a little difficult.


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## Heliotrope (Aug 11, 2016)

^^^^ Is EXACTLY what I'm trying to say 

_And it's not uncommon for groups to break off and pursue their own objectives, even in non-YA stories. How many stories featuring adults as MCs will have those adults beating their heads against uncaring or ineffectual or antagonistic police forces, friends, spouses, etc.?_

^^^ Is so perfectly what I'm trying to say. As writers, we have to use everything we have, and we have to write to our audience. Kids want books about kids being heroes. Young teens want books about teens being heroes. MG, YA and adult books are all exactly the same, they just use different avenues of creating tension/conflict. In a MG we want the Middle Grader to be the hero, so we make that possible by eliminating help and forcing them to do it on their own... but that is no different then YA or Adult... it is all the same. 

So this is why it drives me crazy when people comment on the "dumb adults in YA"... because are there not dumb adults in adult fiction? Yes. Do writers of adult fiction not take away the heroes resources when he needs them the most? Totally.


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## FifthView (Aug 11, 2016)

Helio,

Are you saying there's no difference between YA and MG and Adult fiction? 

One of the things driving me in this discussion is that I don't want use of young protagonists to automatically chuck whatever I write into the YA category, even if my MCs in a given project are all in that age group.   That adult fiction, or fiction written for adults and intended to be read by adults, doesn't lose that potential.  Of course, I think this is a given, but if we are saying that MG, YA, and Adult are essentially the same but simply with different ages for MCs, that's the implication.

I think it's that extreme for adult characters, that if they exist they must absolutely fall into one of those categories I gave earlier, that irritates, more than that some adults are represented as unhelpful and/or antagonistic.  Maybe there's more to it, like the particular type of reaction to those adult figures.  There are other features, like immature thinking patterns, obsessions, and so forth, for the young characters that add to the sense of pandering to a younger mindset, and not simply that adults are all caricatures.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 11, 2016)

On Goodreads "young adult" means "books with a protagonist between the ages of 12 and 18." 

But, I don't think it's as much about a particular age as the maturity and the stage in life of the character. If you wrote a book about a society where people are considered by 15, and your main character was 16, but married and functioning as an adult in society, the characters age wouldn't make your book a young adult book. 

A young adult book is one written FOR young adults, not ABOUT young adults, in my opinion .


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## Heliotrope (Aug 11, 2016)

Ahhhh, I see, I think we are talking about two different things here. 

You are talking about having young characters in your fiction without it being considered YA, and I'm talking about writing from the YA perspective. 

You are talking about doing a GRRM type of scenario, where there are characters of all ages represented, and I'm talking specifically about writing for YA audiences, with only young characters. 

I think you are talking about writing something like ST, where I'm talking about how, when writing a MG novel, my novel would be centered around Mike and crew, eliminating the older cast plot lines entirely. 

I'm NOT saying there is no difference between MG, YA, and adult fiction (obviously), but what I am saying is that at the end of the day the goals are the same. Write to your audience, give them the experience they want, create a protagonist they can identify with or at least are interested in, give that protagonist conflict that the reader actually cares about or understands. 

MG, YA, adult writers have to go about these goals in different ways, but at the end of the day the goals are the same.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 11, 2016)

The "all adults are clueless/ineffective" trope is something I see in MG. in YA I don't recall ever coming across anything like this, probably because the MC's are nearly adults. They don't depend on adults, they more often than not provide for and take care of themselves.


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## Heliotrope (Aug 11, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> A young adult book is one written FOR young adults, not ABOUT young adults, in my opinion .




I think ^^ is exactly right.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 11, 2016)

Something I've noticed: as a general rule, the MC in a YA book is a year or so older than the targeted audience. Most YA characters are about 17. 18 seems to be too old. Even though I doubt a 17 year old and a 22 year old are that different mentally. 

(My characters are 14 and 17 at the start of the story, and 17 and 20 by its end...also, both are basically functioning as adults and one has a pregnant wife. Do I break the rule? I don't know.)


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## FifthView (Aug 11, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> Ahhhh, I see, I think we are talking about two different things here.
> 
> You are talking about having young characters in your fiction without it being considered YA, and I'm talking about writing from the YA perspective.
> 
> You are talking about doing a GRRM type of scenario, where there are characters of all ages represented, and I'm talking specifically about writing for YA audiences, with only young characters.



Well no, not precisely, since I've also been talking about Harry Potter, eh?

I think this goes back to something mentioned in the OP:



Laurence said:


> I imagine adults are less likely to enjoy YA fiction while I think most young teens and up are perfectly capable of/willing to pick up a non-YA book.



I was certainly one of those young teens, although at one point as a teen I was reading more science fiction than fantasy.  Most of those SF novels featured adult male main characters.  [Incidentally, did younger people nowadays like Guardians of the Galaxy?]  I'd say that the vast majority of the novels I read as a teen did not feature teen MCs, although some did.  (So, for examples from fantasy, besides reading the Thomas Covenant series, I was reading the Belgariad.)  And I'm not sure those that featured some young protagonist would be considered YA these days.

I don't think I am a particular oddball, but I'd have to survey teens throughout the years to see if anything's changed.  I know Sawyer Fredericks, who won The Voice at the age of 16 was asked what he was reading, and he responded that he was reading GRRM's ASOIAF.

So what does it mean to "target" the YA audience by writing the types of stories that are being described in this thread?


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 11, 2016)

17 and 22 are often a huge difference. The brain continues to mature until (at least) 25. The 22 year old me was very different than 17 me, damned near different people, and even after cognitive maturation experience continues to change the brain's outlook on life. 



DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Something I've noticed: as a general rule, the MC in a YA book is a year or so older than the targeted audience. Most YA characters are about 17. 18 seems to be too old. Even though I doubt a 17 year old and a 22 year old are that different mentally.
> 
> (My characters are 14 and 17 at the start of the story, and 17 and 20 by its end...also, both are basically functioning as adults and one has a pregnant wife. Do I break the rule? I don't know.)


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 11, 2016)

Demesnedenoir said:


> 17 and 22 are often a huge difference. The brain continues to mature until (at least) 25. The 22 year old me was very different than 17 me, damned near different people, and even after cognitive maturation experience continues to change the brain's outlook on life.



Well, if you look at it that way....I guess people change throughout their ENTIRE lives.


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## Russ (Aug 11, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Something I've noticed: as a general rule, the MC in a YA book is a year or so older than the targeted audience. Most YA characters are about 17. 18 seems to be too old. Even though I doubt a 17 year old and a 22 year old are that different mentally.
> 
> (My characters are 14 and 17 at the start of the story, and 17 and 20 by its end...also, both are basically functioning as adults and one has a pregnant wife. Do I break the rule? I don't know.)



Biology aside, in the modern world a 17 and 22 year old in first world countries are vastly different based on social/cultural influences.


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## Holoman (Aug 11, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Something I've noticed: as a general rule, the MC in a YA book is a year or so older than the targeted audience. Most YA characters are about 17. 18 seems to be too old. *Even though I doubt a 17 year old and a 22 year old are that different mentally.
> *
> (My characters are 14 and 17 at the start of the story, and 17 and 20 by its end...also, both are basically functioning as adults and one has a pregnant wife. Do I break the rule? I don't know.)



Oh you'll be different. When you're 22 you'll look back at your 17 yo self and think "what an idiot"


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## Heliotrope (Aug 11, 2016)

FV, I'm unsure if we need to debate the merit of providing a variety of texts, with a variety of characters in a variety of situations at a variety of reading levels to people of all ages? 

Obviously, teenagers read adults texts, as do kids. Hell, I read The Accidental Tourist when I was in fifth grade and got a hell of an education from some of the Dr. Romance books on my mom's bookcase  

But it didn't make the Fear Street or Goose Bumps or Nancy Drew books any less engaging.

Edit: I teach seventh grade. Last year I had: 

- 1 girl with autism who liked to read My Little Pony story books. 
- 1 reluctant reader who had never found a book he liked who read War Horse ten times after I gave it to him. 
- A group of around 5-6 kids at a grade 3 reading level who were still reading Diary of a Wimpy Kid. 
- A group of 5-6 kids who had already finished Harry Potter and Percy Jackson when they were only 8 years old and had now moved onto GOT. 
- A group of very religious students whose parents previewed all the books they read and were limited to a small selection of parent-approved novels. 
- A group of students who preferred to read magazines and Video Game manuals. 

You get the idea.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 11, 2016)

Holoman said:


> Oh you'll be different. When you're 22 you'll look back at your 17 yo self and think "what an idiot"



lol, i look back on myself a week ago and think that! 

What i meant was, i don't really buy into the idea that you're a teenager for a while, and then at 18 you're suddenly an adult. that there's an 'adolescent mental state' and then you switch to an 'adult mental state' when you turn 18. i'd think a 22 year old would be able to relate to some of the same things a 17 year old would. 

that, and 22 doesn't give me a 'mature adult' vibe, more like a 'bigger teenager', lol. college students seem to me like older adolescents. 

i'm a totally different person than i was 4 years ago, but i'm more or less in the same stage of life. 

i suppose i'm not the authority on this, never having been an adult (that i can remember. )


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## FifthView (Aug 11, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> FV, I'm unsure if we need to debate the merit of providing a variety of texts, with a variety of characters in a variety of situations at a variety of reading levels to people of all ages?



First I gain the impression that YA is significant because it provides young main characters and readers of approximately the same age will be able to identify with those characters.  I wonder if this is meant to imply that YA readers will be unable to identify with, and enjoy, characters much older than they are.

But no, YA is not about the age of the main characters; it's about writing _for_ YA readers, I'm told.

But if the age of the characters doesn't really matter and YA readers can enjoy novels written _for_ adults, then why worry about targeting them by writing something particular called "YA?"  Your writing could be for adults but simultaneously be for YA readers.

But I think that what is referred to as YA might actually be defined more by theme and–style?–than by who are the targets.  It's not writing _for_ young adults, but _for_ people who enjoy X, Y, Z.  What X, Y, Z signify is the question.  But maybe I'm straying because the title of the thread was "Why YA?" and not "What's YA?"


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## FifthView (Aug 11, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> lol, i look back on myself a week ago and think that!
> 
> What i meant was, i don't really buy into the idea that you're a teenager for a while, and then at 18 you're suddenly an adult. that there's an 'adolescent mental state' and then you switch to an 'adult mental state' when you turn 18. i'd think a 22 year old would be able to relate to some of the same things a 17 year old would.
> 
> ...



I'm 45, and seriously, I think of anyone in their 20s as being kids.

And I have parents who seem like kids to me.  But I don't have the time or the courage to try and explain this.


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## FifthView (Aug 12, 2016)

I hope my last comment didn't offend.  I think this perception of age is fluid, and I remembered the shock when I first realized that I had more difficulty recognizing ages between older teens and 20-somethings, in strangers.  The first feeling of really growing old myself, seeing people in my community or stars on television who are in their twenties but who seem like kids to me.

All of this might be a little off-topic, or not.  I do believe the whole "writing for YA" idea brings with it a certain implication of dumbing-down or facile pandering, or at least might imply this if taken too literally and casually.  I'm always remembering this bit from _Dune_, a book I read multiple times as a teen that happens to feature a YA protagonist but also many adults and perhaps isn't "YA" by today's standards?

It was like an ultimate simpatico, being two people at once: not telepathy, 
but mutual awareness. 

With the old Reverend Mother! 

But Jessica saw that the Reverend Mother didn't think of herself as old. An 
image unfolded before the mutual mind's eye: a young girl with a dancing spirit 
and tender humor. 

Within the mutual awareness, the young girl said, "Yes, that is how I am."​
At the time, it was slightly shocking and revelatory; but the older I grow the more sense it has made.  So my parents.  And even myself:  Feeling simultaneously prematurely old but still like a kid.  And if we all have kids in us still, then maybe targeting YAs and adults simultaneously doesn't have to be such a difficult thing.


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## Laurence (Aug 12, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> And I don't like the assumption that YA is a 'dumbed down' version of adult fantasy. Where did that assumption come from?
> 
> Read The Book Theif, a story of a young illiterate german girl during the Holocaust who has taken to stealing books from burn piles in the city.
> 
> ...



Thanks a bunch for the examples!

I'd like to point out that my confusion doesn't/didn't lie in why someone would write children's fiction, but in YA specifically because in my mind, young adults are essentially just adults in the way that they think (except that for a lot of them their world is still slightly more centred around themselves).

I imagine the reason I'm having trouble is because I'm 22 and don't fully feel a part of either group currently.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 13, 2016)

Laurence said:


> Thanks a bunch for the examples!
> 
> I'd like to point out that my confusion doesn't/didn't lie in why someone would write children's fiction, but in YA specifically because in my mind, young adults are essentially just adults in the way that they think (except that for a lot of them their world is still slightly more centred around themselves).
> 
> I imagine the reason I'm having trouble is because I'm 22 and don't fully feel a part of either group currently.



In the way that they think, maybe. I'm not convinced of this. (Having never been an adult, I can't say, but we change throughout our entire lives, so...) But in what's important to them, what affects their lives, what motivates them...their feelings and drives...teens are DEFINITELY extremely different from adults. 

That said, the modern YA audience is extremely new. Even in my memory there seems to be a time where there was children's books and adult books, without much of an intervening category. Of course, books that fit the qualifications existed, but YA didn't become huge until rather recently.  At least, I don't think so. In the 1980s (which I wasn't around for), did YA really exist?


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## Laurence (Aug 13, 2016)

I getcha. I moved out to work full time in another city at age 17 and have always been a relationship kinda guy, having lived with a gal at 19. Maybe the reason I don't see the difference between YA and "adult" audiences is that I've unknowingly been thinking as an adult.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 13, 2016)

So, I went to the library today and now my faith in young adult books is a little more eroded than it was before. 

I checked out the book An Ember in the Ashes (by Sabaa Tahir) in the hope that it *might* be worth my time. It's very popular and I've heard incredible things about it, 200 pages later (I read fast, ok) I DNF'd with no remorse whatsoever. (DNF stands for Did Not Finish, for the uninitiated.) 

It definitely counted as one of the "dark, gritty, mature" YA books. There was a ton of violence and torture, the threat of rape was omnipresent for the female characters, and the whole story had a dark, hopeless atmosphere that became depressing after a while. The violence wasnt really graphic, but it was EVERYWHERE. I didn't enjoy it much--the violence was rather pointless and plot-irrelevant except for shock value and a little disturbing in how casually it was handled and how liberally it was applied, the main character was weak, whiny, barely did anything proactive and had few skills, the bad guy (girl?) was so sadistic and evil she was a caricature, and the writing was mediocre. To be honest I rarely come across YA books with writing that's more than mediocre. Ember was supposedly on the high end in terms of writing and it still felt like plodding cotton candy fluff, nothing that stood out. (The low end in terms of writing: The Selection series, Delirium, The Mortal Instruments...there is some real crap out there that makes me cry to think trees died for it.) 

Despite being a YA I really have outgrown YA level writing. My eyes flit across it without engaging my brain at all. I like masterfully woven prose. It feels good to read it, nourishing. I don't have conscious memories of learning to read, and I was reading plenty of novels when I was 7, so I'm not exactly on my reading level...but it's dawned on me that I hate reading below my ability. 

That wasn't why I DNF'd Ember, but it was an observation I made. I get incredibly bored with the style of almost all YA books. (There are a few rare gems. Right now I'm reading Wolf by Wolf by Ryan Graudin, which is an amazing (in my opinion) alternate history, and I like the writing.) 

Maybe the reason YA books are so popular, even among adults, is that audiences like fluffy writing. It's not challenging. But, are adult books any less fluffy? The adult books I have read haven't been the "mainstream" stuff. I doubt the dime-novel type pulp is much better. 

Anyway, I'm starting to wonder why I defend YA when I hate 97% of it. Typically I really like the plotline a and stories, but hate the execution. Mediocre writing, complicated love subplots that strangle the main plot. I really could do without romance subplots half the time. I mean yeah, hot boys are great, I like them, but a substitute for a story, they are not. Middle grade novels are often actually better--same writing more or less, none of the unnecessary romance. The stories and premises tend to be stronger because they can't skimp on story by appealing to the readers' hormones.) 

I didn't even finish the Hunger Games trilogy. (I read the first book because I owned it and couldn't be bothered to continue.) Haven't touched Divergent, the Mortal Instruments, anything else you hear about...My friends keep telling me to read them, but life is too short to waste on crappy books.


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## skip.knox (Aug 14, 2016)

>then at 18 you're suddenly an adult

Nope. Some states say it's 21 (drinking age). The insurance companies tell you it's 25 (that's when your car insurance rates drop). And you can't be President until you're at least 35. 

The 18 bar is only one of several.


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## FifthView (Aug 14, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Maybe the reason YA books are so popular, even among adults, is that audiences like fluffy writing. It's not challenging. But, are adult books any less fluffy? The adult books I have read haven't been the "mainstream" stuff. I doubt the dime-novel type pulp is much better.



I don't know, there's pulp and then there's pulp, and sometimes there are the entertaining sort that doesn't bother itself too much with great themes, mind-bending plot turns, and so forth.  I went through a phase when I was a teen when I read a lot of adventurous military science-fiction and/or space opera types of stories that featured adults, sure, and wouldn't be considered YA by today's standards.  And books like the Myth Adventures fantasy series by Robert Asprin that are light, comedic reading.  Sometimes something simple can be fun and engaging without being a case of Serious Literature™.



> Mediocre writing, complicated love subplots that strangle the main plot. I really could do without romance subplots half the time. I mean yeah, hot boys are great, I like them, but a substitute for a story, they are not.



So I've wondered if what's considered YA is defined more by its particular themes and style in presenting those themes than about its specific target audience.  Perhaps _some_ YA readers really do enjoy those themes more than many adult readers.  But then it's a type of genre writing, probably sub-sub-genre that has attached itself to the Young Adult label as a marketing ploy.



> Middle grade novels are often actually better--same writing more or less, none of the unnecessary romance. The stories and premises tend to be stronger because they can't skimp on story by appealing to the readers' hormones.)



Have you ever tried to tell young relatives a story or relate an account of something you found extremely interesting?  I have a 10-year-old nephew and a 7-year-old niece who I can engage in conversation for long periods of time—but not tell an extended story of my own, usually.  Back-and-forth conversation with them can be fun, but it's like a jab in the heart to see their blank faces, wandering eyes, and so forth during one of my stories and come to realize that perhaps they're humoring me by not speaking during my tale.  So maybe it's a little harder to tell tales in an engaging way to that younger crowd, requiring more care and forethought about subject and delivery.


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## Holoman (Aug 14, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> >then at 18 you're suddenly an adult
> 
> Nope. Some states say it's 21 (drinking age). The insurance companies tell you it's 25 (that's when your car insurance rates drop). And you can't be President until you're at least 35.
> 
> The 18 bar is only one of several.



I'm 30. I'm still waiting until I become and adult


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 14, 2016)

It certainly isn't just an affliction of YA, Adult fiction is full of crap writing... and remember I separate writing from story-telling... I will put down most books I pick up in the first few pages if I let my judgement of the writing stop me. I'm sort of reading Sanderson's free online novel Warbreaker, and I can stomach it in part because it is a draft, not a final, I don't think. But it's not easy because my editor brain keeps trying to kick me out of the story, LOL. But this happens a lot in finished/published works too. I've seen where on the 1st page of a New York Times #1 bestselling writer's book where I wanted to smack the writer twice before I got 3/4 of the way through the page. Not to say the writer isn't a good storyteller, but writer? yikes. 

One of the things I find distressing, in fact, is the writer's slogan of "read, read, read". Lots of people who give this advice basically say you are going to learn to write from reading, but if you (generic you, the writer) really do "read, read, read" in order to learn to write, you will be reading a whole lot of crap, and learning to write crap. Now, let's just say read, read, read the classics! Well, that's great, but guess what? The classics are classics but they don't play to the modern genre audience nor even the literary audiences and their sensibilities. So, will reading Dickens (one of my favorites) teach you to write for a modern audience? No, probably not.

I started reading unpublished and unfinished works by writers in order to learn what not to do, I've learned way more by reading unpublished work than by reading pub'd works. But now that I've trained myself to find faults there, I now find them all over in pub'd works. Hopefully, that then translated into identifying problems in my own writing, so that I can finally focus most on storytelling. 

Cormac McCarthy is one of the few writers I've read lately that comes off clean, once you get used to his quirks, LOL. In fantasy? I love fantasy, but God help me, it's hard to read so much of the writing.




DragonOfTheAerie said:


> So, I went to the library today and now my faith in young adult books is a little more eroded than it was before.
> 
> I checked out the book An Ember in the Ashes (by Sabaa Tahir) in the hope that it *might* be worth my time. It's very popular and I've heard incredible things about it, 200 pages later (I read fast, ok) I DNF'd with no remorse whatsoever. (DNF stands for Did Not Finish, for the uninitiated.)
> 
> ...


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 14, 2016)

Demesnedenoir said:


> It certainly isn't just an affliction of YA, Adult fiction is full of crap writing... and remember I separate writing from story-telling... I will put down most books I pick up in the first few pages if I let my judgement of the writing stop me. I'm sort of reading Sanderson's free online novel Warbreaker, and I can stomach it in part because it is a draft, not a final, I don't think. But it's not easy because my editor brain keeps trying to kick me out of the story, LOL. But this happens a lot in finished/published works too. I've seen where on the 1st page of a New York Times #1 bestselling writer's book where I wanted to smack the writer twice before I got 3/4 of the way through the page. Not to say the writer isn't a good storyteller, but writer? yikes.
> 
> One of the things I find distressing, in fact, is the writer's slogan of "read, read, read". Lots of people who give this advice basically say you are going to learn to write from reading, but if you (generic you, the writer) really do "read, read, read" in order to learn to write, you will be reading a whole lot of crap, and learning to write crap. Now, let's just say read, read, read the classics! Well, that's great, but guess what? The classics are classics but they don't play to the modern genre audience nor even the literary audiences and their sensibilities. So, will reading Dickens (one of my favorites) teach you to write for a modern audience? No, probably not.
> 
> ...



I'm of the opinion that everything you read has something to teach you. Whenever a book doesn't work for me, I analyze it. Why didn't it work? What did I want from it that it didn't accomplish? What was wrong with it? What would improve it? What could have been done differently? You can learn a lot by reading bad books. Typically I find some things that I hated and want to avoid and some things that I liked and want to emulate. Take the good and learn from it, take the bad and learn from it. 

I wouldn't suggest making it habitual, though...reading bad writing tends to make your writing bad after a while.


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 14, 2016)

I simply don't tend to read much anymore. Too much life to be lived, and too many stories to write, LOL. Historically, I tended to be a mimic, so reading can screw up my writing, although I may have passed that phase by now. Not sure.  I'm done analyzing story and writing except when I cant avoid it while attempting to read for enjoyment, or when critiquing another writer's work for them. The trouble is in finding things I enjoy. 



DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I'm of the opinion that everything you read has something to teach you. Whenever a book doesn't work for me, I analyze it. Why didn't it work? What did I want from it that it didn't accomplish? What was wrong with it? What would improve it? What could have been done differently? You can learn a lot by reading bad books. Typically I find some things that I hated and want to avoid and some things that I liked and want to emulate. Take the good and learn from it, take the bad and learn from it.
> 
> I wouldn't suggest making it habitual, though...reading bad writing tends to make your writing bad after a while.


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## skip.knox (Aug 14, 2016)

@DragonOTA said " ... my faith in young adult books is a little more eroded than it was before."
To which I have to cite Sturgeon's Law, which I've cited innumerable times: seventy percent of everything is crap.
Learn this maxim. Embrace it, and the world will disappoint you less.

@DemesneDaNight said "I simply don't tend to read much anymore."
Me also neither.  I do try. Recently got Jim Butcher's first Alera volume and found I was forcing myself to read it. Then saw a mention and bought Peter Beagle's _The Last Unicorn_ and had to force myself to stop after five chapters in order to go write. Some books are worth reading. And a very few make me want to abandon any pretense of being a writer. Those are the ones that lodge in the heart and make me glad I am, whatever else I am, a reader.


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## Reaver (Aug 14, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> @DragonOTA said " ... my faith in young adult books is a little more eroded than it was before."
> To which I have to cite Sturgeon's Law, which I've cited innumerable times: seventy percent of everything is crap.



Not to be confused with Sturgis' Law: seventy percent of everything is awesome and probably illegal in most states. Skip, you're the Obi Wan of Mythic Scribes, man. The next time I visit my brother in Kuna, I insist you let me buy you lunch.


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## skip.knox (Aug 14, 2016)

@Reaver: done. If you let me buy, we can eat at Enriques!

... didn't Obi Wan die? ...


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## Reaver (Aug 14, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> @Reaver: done. If you let me buy, we can eat at Enriques!
> 
> ... didn't Obi Wan die? ...



Deal. Obi Wan only died in the physical sense, he moved on to a higher plane of existence, hence his appearance in ROTJ. 

I meant it as a compliment. You know, as in Joseph Campbell's wise mentor archetype.


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## skip.knox (Aug 15, 2016)

I got it, and thanks. Sometimes my humor amuses others, sometimes it amuses only myself. Behold a higher plane of existence:


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## Reaver (Aug 15, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> I got it, and thanks. Sometimes my humor amuses others, sometimes it amuses only myself. Behold a higher plane of existence:



I know that this isn't one of those Rorschach tests, but for some reason I see the cover art for one of Jules Verne's unpublished novels.  In this scene, a sailing ship is sunk by a Kraken and the survivors escape via a cleverly stored hot air balloon.

On a completely unrelated note, I may need my meds readjusted.


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