# Writers respond: Define offensive



## Chime85 (Jun 2, 2012)

Now when I say offensive, I have no desire to be shot down in flames as the next Nick Griffin. I hold no apology to those who follow his views, but I consider myself as an open person when it comes to culture and race.

By all means, the term offensive does not cover race or colour alone, offence is something that encompasses all forms of offence. In fact, I shall scratch the word offence, and replace it with discrimination.

As fantasy writers, we cherry pick many cultures and lifestyles of our worlds history, in order to complete a fitting and justified world in which our stories can unfold. However, we are often concerned about the people we may (or may not) offend.  There have been plenty examples of this, both in reality, and in fantasy.

On one side, you could argue that Tolkien considered black people were evil (as Orcs) , or are 'tribal in nature’, only banding with other tribes under the common banner of chaos. The other school would see his works as taking a shot at Germany, and the relentless effort they gave during the war. If you as a reader researched Tolkien, you have long discovered this is not the case. 
Tolkien was very hard pushed to place Orcs as a relentless race; hence the horrid whip of the nine and the dark lord as a stick, rather than a carrot.

With Tolkien in mind (and I promise to move away from Tolkien) we have Hobbits, and the other side of the coin. We can all relate to a calm, cool and quiet county side as being a picture of goodness and what is right in the world, Hobbits embrace and breathe this very notion. However, are we to say little people are simple and easily pleased? I should jolly well hope not! 

Moving from Tolkien I move to Anne Mccaffrey, Author of Pern and Arcorna. In my opinion, these novels swing in the opposite direction. I agree the veil between males and females needs to be torn down. If anyone said I believed different, I’d go as far as giving them a firm slap in the face. Now this is my own opinion, but I do find that her machine gun stance against the male agenda more than overtakes the enjoyment of the story at hand. In an example, with the first book of Acorna, it seems all female slaves look out for each other, while the male slaves screw over the female slaves for butter with their bread. Any woman considered evil has male like outer features and is often accompanied by a male who is heartless and out to make profit. I still encourage people to read these books, despite my complaints, I found myself reading four novels of the Acorna series.

Now I am not saying we should throw these values aside. Personally, I am 100% for equally and representation in written media. In fact, this draws on the point I am making. What is more offensive; having a black person in your story or removing black people altogether? I hate to pick on racial issues at this point, but from recent post; this seems to be the case.

Throwing the ball into the other side of the court, I’ll pass you over to religion. A lot of the western world practices (or believes in) Christianity, Judaism or Catholicism. They seem to be a no go area in modern media. I demand that any reader right now would conclude that I have no intention to take away his or her beliefs. That is their right as much as any. It would be wrong of me to do that, as well as hypocritical of the very point I am pursuing to make.

If I must boil down to a point, it is this. Is it nor more offensive, to place someone out of a story, rather than have them included within; through fear of upsetting a few who would believe you are attacking them? Personally I would rather push the boundaries of society and bring these issues to question, rather than side-lip them and do them an injustice.

Now I imagine many of you are thinking “well, what this person knows about prejudice?” That is a very good question in regards to this matter. I am transgender (M2F) and yes, I get prejudged when it comes to jobs, being served common goods such as alcohol and tobacco. I even get turned down at my local bars during football season. I find these people offensive, not fictional works.

This is only the tip of the ice as they say. I encourage any persons here within to speak for or against this short presentation.

Chime xXx


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 2, 2012)

My only response to this is:  While it is mildly offensive to take away people of a particular race, it is more offensive to use that race or stereotypes of said race in a negative way, say as the evil side.  In one of my novels (set in a northern European setting) I had my prince married to a woman from another land and in one scene he remarks about her great exotic beauty and dark skin.  I don't think anyone could find offense with that.  However if I painted her people as uncivilized or frightening evil shamans or something.. we're bordering on offensive.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jun 3, 2012)

My outlook on this topic is pretty simple & straightforward. If you're going to be a writer that wants to be read you'd better get used to the idea that you're going to offend people. It's going to happen no matter how you approach telling your story. I consider this an axiom.

Considering this, I don't think authors should give a damn about what people "think" they are talking about or why certain elements are included or excluded from the tale. If the story calls for inclusion then put it in there.

If you start writing with a worry that you have to be careful with this or delicately handle that you're going to end up with a terrible book. 

A lack of honesty is the only inexcusable sin in writing. The only thing that should dictate how a story is told is the story itself.


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## Steerpike (Jun 3, 2012)

I think fixating on this sort of thing is a good way to avoid actually writing something, or else to come up with something so contrived that it isn't worth writing. If you are trying to make a point specifically about one of these social issues (i.e. if these are important to your theme), then they bear consideration. If you're only thinking about them because you are worried that X or Y is going to offend someone you are wasting your time.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 3, 2012)

Yeah.  Take it from me, I butchered  novel when I considered sending out a query for it.  I took out anything I thought was too graphic rather than letting the story go out as it was, and now I've spent over a hundred hours undoing the worst of my mistakes. 

Now mine weren't at all linked to race or religion, but still, I had concerns that my scenes might upset some people and I cut and hacked them until I didn't recognize my story.  Sad.


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## Ophiucha (Jun 3, 2012)

Unless it is a _very_ racist depiction of a black person, I have to say it is better a black person than to erase them entirely. While anyone intending to write about people of colour (or women, or transgender people, or gay people, or disabled people) should obviously research the thoughts and concerns of their communities, both in regards to what your story is about _and_ in regards to how people in that community view their media representation, ultimately a half-step is generally better than none at all. There's definitely a point where it's a step _backwards_, but I'd like to think that everyone here would be able to avoid that.

To look at it a different way, there's Hollywood. When we started casting black actors and actresses, the roles didn't become any less racist, but it was still a _big_ step to not just cast white actors and put them in blackface.

I don't really think this is something you need to fuss about, either. I have black, gay, and transgender characters in several of my stories. But I don't spend weeks trying to justify how every choice and line of dialogue I wrote is or is not racist/homophobic/transphobic. I treat them like I'd treat any other character, with respect and with my research in mind, and if I'm ever so lucky as to be published and read by a diverse group of people, and some take offence, then I listen to their criticisms and apologize, avoiding the same mistakes in the future. That's all you really _can _do.


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## Steerpike (Jun 3, 2012)

I think it is a mistake to assume that you have done something wrong just because someone writes you and says they were offended. It is ultimately fruitless, because even with a demographic group, any two given people may take opposing views. For  example, one of my best friends is a lesbian, and she and her partner sometimes have very different (and sometimes contradictory) ideas of what is offensive. Also, proceeding solely with these considerations in mind is nothing more than political correctness, which is in turn the attempt to censor thought and ideas and as such should be an anathema to any artist and within any art form, including fiction.


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## Kailarthas (Jun 3, 2012)

The way I look at offense in my writing is, it's MY writing, I get to decide what happens. If the evil wizard is Asian, and the barbarian hordes are black, cool. If not, cool. My story, you choose to read it or not to.

I find it offensive that the world has become so sensitive. You'd think, with the breadth of knowledge available to us, we'd be capable of handling slights and insults better. Instead, the world seems to be degenerating into a politically correct sphere of people worried about stepping on someone else's toes.

tl;dr
Write for yourself. If it offends other people, they can put it down.


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## Jabrosky (Jun 3, 2012)

anihow said:


> In one of my novels (set in a northern European setting) I had my prince married to a woman from another land and in one scene he remarks about her great exotic beauty and dark skin.  I don't think anyone could find offense with that.


I wouldn't, but I have met people who perceive even complimentary words like "exotic" as offensively alienating.


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## Steerpike (Jun 3, 2012)

Jabrosky said:


> I wouldn't, but I have met people who perceive even complimentary words like "exotic" as offensively alienating.



A perfect example of what T. Allen Smith was talking about, above, and why it is pointless to fret over these issues. Kailarthas is right - you write the story you want. Anyone who doesn't like it can and should go find a different book.


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## Ophiucha (Jun 3, 2012)

Well, I suppose it is up to you to decide if you'll take the advice in the future. But I find this rather blasÃ© attitude towards offending people to be a bit odd. No, you can't please everyone, and even if you did write something that pleases everyone in terms of race, gender, and sexuality, then you'd piss off the hyper conservative types who think even _having _a gay character means you're going to hell. I _get_ that, but I don't think that means you get to make all of your black characters uncivilized barbarians, or all your gay characters flamboyant stereotypes, or refer to your trans*woman character as "he", or to just not write about any of them at all. I mean... why _would _you? It's not about political correctness, it's about being a decent person.


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## Amanita (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm wondering if I should keep my main character's brown skin for these reasons too. Her country has banned the form of magic she has which forces her to learn about it somewhere else, from "white" people. This is seen as a severe issue I've gathered on some websites discussing race stereotypes in writing. 
The people teaching her are far from perfect and she disapproves of many things within their quite flawed system but still... Later, she goes on to establish a system of magical training in her home country with the help of her husband to be who comes from there as well and tries to find a way to do it in a way suitable to their own cultural background.
Her people where the first to use the magic in question in an institutionalist way but after an instance of great abuse it was banned and this ended up with it's own dynamic during the following 1000 years. Would you see this as a reason to make her white too?

As you can guess, I can't really give any advice for others because I'm struggling with this issue myself.


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## gavintonks (Jun 3, 2012)

I am pretty open about most things but there was an author I was asked to crit his work and after a few pages said sorry no - gratuitous violence and rape against innocents,written in a way to be shocking and disturbing along the lines of that terrible film where the innocent victims are sewn together in a chain anus to mouth, I mean depravity seems to hold no bounds as a cheap shock tactic


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## Steerpike (Jun 3, 2012)

Of course, the rightwingers would say that all their ideas about what you should or shouldn't do all come down to being a decent person, so it does boil down to political correctness on both sides.

I certainly don't think you should go out of your way to offend any person. That would be as foolish as going out of your way to make sure no one is offended. But whether you're talking about rightwingers with the view that art should conform to their values, or leftwingers saying art should conform to their values, it is all ultimately about censoring self-expression (or encouraging the artist to self-censor). I don't believe that has any place in art, personally. You write the story that inspires you and that you believe in, without regard to these issues. At best they are distractions for any artist, and at worst they ensure a mediocrity of output that conforms to the popular sentiment at any given time. 

Has nothing at all to do with being a decent person, because none of the groups that want to define for you what is acceptable or unacceptable has a monopoly on decency. One of the bigger problems we face in society today is the profusion of people and groups who seem to think they do.


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## Ophiucha (Jun 3, 2012)

@Amanita, I'd say keep her and her people as brown, personally. It doesn't sound particularly problematic, to me, particularly if your main character is the one who teaches her people.

@gavintonks, Torture porn is, I believe, the colloquial term for it. Not particularly interesting reads, in my opinion. Or watches. They lack any real character development. Although I must say, the actor who played the scientist in _The Human Centipede_ was quite talented. I hope he appears in something else one day. Something less... off-putting.

@Steerpike, Write whatever tickles your fancy, really. I believe in my original post I explicitly said that you shouldn't fuss about this sort of thing. It's just as easy to write a non-racist black character as it is to write a racist depiction of one, and the fact that people rip apart their manuscripts trying not to do the latter means they probably cared enough to accomplish the former on the first draft. _But _I am going to side-eye anybody who sees not writing racist caricatures as "political correctness gone mad".


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## Steerpike (Jun 3, 2012)

Opiucha, I don't think anyone is talking about writing racist caricatures. The point is, no matter how you approach these topics there will be someone out there to be offended, and that person will be convinced that they are correct and are just asking for a little decency. Any artist, including a writer, should be extremely wary of someone who wishes to say what they can and cannot include in their work under the pretense of decency, the right value system, or any related factors. There is a lot of good literature out there that was considered indecent at the time of its writing, and still today you can see lists of banned books. The banning is done by people who just want decency and are convinced that their vision of it is correct. Overt banning is a more extreme reaction, of course, but the attempt to limit subject matter and presentation of characters and stories via social pressures is in the same spirit, and should be resisted. It is easy to point to overt caricatures of race, religion, sexuality, and the like, but once you open the door that people holding certain views in society have the moral authority to determine what is acceptable in a piece of literature, you've made a mistake in my view.


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## Ophiucha (Jun 3, 2012)

Well, the topic of the thread seemed to be "is it better to have a racist depiction of a black character or to not have a black character at all?", so one must assume we're discussing racist depictions of black people primarily.

But even assuming you have a respectful character... I think you underestimate the ability of the masses to come to a consensus. Sure, there will be fringes of any group who think differently (for better or for worse), but consensuses - not hard to come by. Very few people find the depictions of Asian characters in _Avatar: The Last Airbender_ to be problematic. Are there a handful of people? Sure. And I think the creators of the show should listen to them and consider what they are saying, even if they choose not to take their advice in the future. Everyone should consider the criticism of their work. But ultimately, most fans of the show (Asian fans included and in particular) consider it to be a positive portrayal of Asian characters. Consensus met. Mission accomplished.

I also don't believe I ever said anything about censoring work. I read _Lovecraft_. He wrote a poem I can't even quote the title of in this forum, but damn, "A beast they wrought, in semi-human figure, Filled it with vice," I don't need to explain what slant rhyme of 'figure' he went with to name this "beast". I don't think we should ban or censor Lovecraft, or let that particular poem and a few of his other choice works fade into obscurity. They are part of his legacy. _Censorship_ is the last thing I want.


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## Steerpike (Jun 3, 2012)

Yes, I read Lovecraft as well, and I have little doubt he held racist views, as can be seen from both his works and his letters. I try to put those aspects in the context of a time and place and look at the broader aspects of his work, which is what it sounds like you do as well.

As to the last post, I don't disagree with anything you are saying there. I suppose my overriding principle here is that if it does finally come to a conflict between the artists vision and societal perceptions or values, the artist should follow her vision and let the chips fall where they may.

Writing caricatures of any group of people, whether based on race, creed, color, gender, sexual orientation, or what have you (even caricatures of racists, for that matter) is just bad writing, and so should be avoided


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## Justme (Jun 3, 2012)

Define offensive

That which defiles one's sense of person-hood.


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## Jabrosky (Jun 3, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Writing caricatures of any group of people, whether based on race, creed, color, gender, sexual orientation, or what have you (even caricatures of racists, for that matter) is just bad writing, and so should be avoided



I completely concur with this. Any competent writer interested in creating multidimensional characters will easily avoid offensive stereotypes, because stereotypes are by nature one-dimensional caricatures. Sure, a writer may have a black street criminal in their story, but if that criminal is treated as a complex character instead of a simplistic, cartoonish brute, he can't really be called stereotypical.

That said, characters who defy stereotypes in one way or another can be fun to write.


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## Ophiucha (Jun 3, 2012)

I don't think his time period _forgives _the racism, particularly since even for his time period, he was particularly bad, I just don't think that means we should sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn't exist, nor that we should forget, ban, or censor Lovecraft because of it. He's a phenomenal writer, he just also happened to be a phenomenal racist.

I do agree that writing caricatures, and in the case of philosophies and creeds, strawmen is just bad writing. Though there are worse things. Anybody remember MammothFail? I was reminded of _that _one recently. Just goes to show that there's a sliding scale.


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## Feo Takahari (Jun 3, 2012)

What I immediately thought of when people started talking about groups getting offended for petty reasons.


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## Chime85 (Jun 3, 2012)

Wow, I did not expect this magnitude of response from my original question. I agree with the majority in this case when it is said that a writer has the right to write about whatever he or she wishes to write. If the reader finds the material offensive, then they are welcome to stop reading and pick up another book entirely.
I believe there is a major difference between what we can class as artistic licencing. That being, to cover a particular subject matter in a way to pursue a purpose or line of characterisation in the fashion we desire. The other mind set would be trying to offend, for the sake of offending. I believe the later of the examples is when things get out of hand.

A great example of when such subject are the focus of a story, and could be taken as offensive, would be a particular film that comes to mind, I am referring to a film called “the help”.  In my opinion, a fantastic film, but I am not writing to give my opinion on the quality a particular film. Yes, this film is outside the context of fantasy and writing (unless of course you are a screen writer. I have no desire to do you any disservice, please accept my apology if you feel this is the case), but it is a good example of a story telling medium which conveys in many peoples’ eyes, how people stereotype black people in yesteryear. 

In this particular film, you see many slurs and horrid names. I imagine some people found this offensive. That is there right to do so, I will not bare them any grudge in doing this. However, it covers a subject matter that is indeed very important. I would hate it if the screenwriters crept away from this, in order to please a few nay-sayers. 

If anything, when writing questionable material, a writer would have to consider a couple of things in order to deliver the material to their audience. The first being; context. The example I gave above, I would definitely say the subject matter falls into the context of the story and underlying message the film is trying to pursue. 

The second is justification. When I say justification, I do not mean to say that any form of inhumanity is justified. I mean, as many of you are aware, that is it justified within the setting of your narrative and purposeful in some way to plot, character development, or to portray a particular social indifference to the subject matter being written. Although this sounds like a carbon copy of point one, it is different in the way that justification is not necessarily a theme or ideology of which your story is focusing on.

 Now moving from race (this seems to be a focus point. Not my intention, but this thread has evolved in that direction), and the writer; I move to religion and the reader. For this point, I will throw down the gauntlet called Harry Potter. Many will say the series was enjoyable to read and fed the imaginations of children and adults alike. That said, it did spark fury amongst a few religious members of the Christian faith. For those out of this loop, members of the Christian faith burnt copies of harry potter because they believed it was linked to Satanism. 

In the same way we state that we have a right to write what we wish, they do have a right to burn books. As much as I hate to say this, they actually do. If person X purchases a copy of harry potter, then person X has the right to do what they wish with it (which does include burning it). 

Now as many of you have pointed out, if someone dislikes a particular piece of written material, simply don’t read it. but what I suppose I would disagree to would be the censorship of group X against subject Y. Yes, we all have our likes and dislikes about particular subject matters. But it is NOT our right to push our views onto the world. Back to the writers viewpoint, it is our right to write what we wish. These points are different, in a one way system of the reader complaining about written work, the writer is *not* allowed to complain about the readers own comments or remarks.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 4, 2012)

Let me first make an analogy: Last Saturday I was observing a golfer on the 18th hole at a local golf course. ON this particular hole there are several hazards surrounding the green the most daunting of which is a large water hazard, or pond, the the golfers left as he faces the hole. There was one golfer who was so afraid of this hazard that he stared at it for a long while before he took his swings. As could be expected when he hit the ball he went into the drink. 

Moral of the story is: don't focus so much on the problems around you (in this case being offensive) focus on the goal (in this case writing a great story).


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## gavintonks (Jun 5, 2012)

District 9 the movie very successfully translated apartheid district 6 into a hit movie, even if half the world had no idea what is really represented


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## gavintonks (Jun 5, 2012)

I was a moderator on a political blog in South Africa which came to define racism as we have a Chinese socialist agenda, and a government that has lost a protagonist and has reinvented the white man as the bogey of all ills, as it is what happened 40 years ago defines their inability to manage and stop stealing tax payers money. 

After being told to give back everything from land, dignity and what ever else the indoctrinated who are waiting for some religious handout of the wealth of the country they think they are entitled to [I calculated if they nationalized everything and paid them out they would get about US$300] Also despite the fact their were 15 million people and now 35 million people who are claiming hurt before they were born, I realized one thing, the ability to be affronted by a statement then it is you and only you who can reflect the emotional response and be affronted or offended.


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## ALB2012 (Jun 8, 2012)

I had a few comments on my book on a review site. The main character is a female elf former slave in a world were elves are at best servants. This is justified in the lore. They were civilized but due to many factors their civilization fell and now they are scattered hunter/gatherer communities. The humans rule, but the majority of them are just getting on and at least pay lip service to the status quo which has been in power for centuries, initially to protect the humans. Now things have been that way for so long and the rulers are so entrenched and oppressive no one speaks up.

It is a mainly matriarchal society but to their are races within with strong and powerful women, including one matriarcal race.  The female lead needs to be rescued, because she does that is the background of the character but there are fiesty women and feeble men.

SOmeone mentioned why are the women weaker, well the MC is a slave and has no power so has no choice and the other female character is young and shy but becomes stronger later. It is simply the fact the two male characters are the one sin the situation to help.  Later books have strong female characters, and strong male characters. There is a weak female character because that is her personality. It is a medieval based world. There are dark skinned people, but they do not appear much in book 1 as it is not set in their part of the world, a later book will be.

There is an element of the Witch-Hunters being akin to the Nazis and the elves being akin to the jews. This is not intentional but I think people see what they wish to see and use ideas and images in interpretation.

I think, personally, people can take offence at anything. Offence is surely only offence if its intended.  My book has sex in it, I am sure someone will find this offensive. Well fine. Stop reading. Unless an author is being actively offensive or discriminatory I think it really is up to the reader. Some people find things offensive, some don't


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## Feo Takahari (Jun 8, 2012)

I was recently told that one of my short stories was offensive because it wasn't "honest." It took a bit of questioning to get a proper definition of this--eventually, it turned out that the commenter thought my female lead needed more motivation and personality beyond her attraction to the male lead. On the one hand, her refusal to admit her attraction basically _is_ the story, and there's no plot-important reason to know much else about her. But on the other hand, the commenter was right that this makes the character feel shallow, so in my next draft, I'll build upon other aspects of her (such as her religious fervor.)

In other words, just because people are offended when they maybe shouldn't be doesn't mean they're not making good points about what you need to change.


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## shangrila (Jun 9, 2012)

People can find offence at anything if they try. As long as you're not extreme you should be fine.


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## Robert Donnell (Jun 10, 2012)

The problem with Political Correctness is that some people will be offended at the most inoffensive statements, or even the Author's name.  

Absolutely everything is offensive to those who make it their business to be offended.


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