# What are your pet peeves as a reader?



## Black Dragon (Feb 6, 2019)

What are your pet peeves when reading a novel?  What are some of the bad storytelling (or writing) practices that irk you the most?


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 6, 2019)

Hmmm...this is a tough one for sure, as it's hard for me to pin down specific things that bug me. I'll have to think about it.


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## skip.knox (Feb 6, 2019)

I'm not sure if I have peeves, but if I did, I wouldn't keep them as pets. To put it differently, I have a rather large pile of DNFs. I've never taken the time to figure out if there are aspects common to them that caused me to put them aside. 

A story is a communication, speaker and listener (author and reader, whatever). The story stays the same, but the reader changes over the years. What failed to connect when I was twenty might connect when I'm sixty (oh to be young again). Even the circumstances matter: did I read that book as a teen over a lazy summer, or did I grab it like a quick lunch between work and family? Some books just need the right setting.

But here's one as grist. I read _Dune_ when I was a teen. Loved it. Early in our marriage (BK, Before Kids), I would read books to my wife. We read _War and Peace _that way, _The Once and Future King, Martian Chronicles, _and others. And _Dune._ It went just fine, except for this one thing.

Barking.

I never noticed it when I read it the first time, but reading it aloud brought it out. People barked orders. They barked at each other. "Blah, blah, blah," he barked. That sort of thing. It got to the point where I was editing Herbert on the fly, substituting "said" because all the damned barking was driving me barking mad.

I still don't think I'd put the book down because of that, but gosh golly it was annoying. Woof.


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## Gray-Hand (Feb 7, 2019)

I hate it when characters act inconsistently with their established personalities because the plot requires it.  It feels contrived.

The Harry Potter books were guilty of this, likely because Rowling was writing to pretty tight deadlines and didn’t have time to work out how to make everything consistent.  Smart characters suddenly acted dumb, friends started acted like arseholes to each other,  people failed to disclose important information for no reason etc


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## Ban (Feb 7, 2019)

A protagonist who's incapable of logical decision-making, for no well written reason. Probably less of a pet peeve than a common fiction nuisance.


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## Chessie2 (Feb 7, 2019)

Perfect, virtuous, beautiful, can-do-no-wrong heroines. I just stopped reading a book because of this and I'm disappointed that it could have been so much better if the heroine hadn't been a Mary Sue. Gets on my nerves.


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## Svrtnsse (Feb 7, 2019)

Totally irrational, but my current pet peeve is the word "which" when used in descriptions to tack on additional information to something.


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## Voydemain (Feb 7, 2019)

Said. It is redundant. Any word that describes that someone is speaking really, whether it be said, asked, yelled, barked whispered, etc. There is no reason for it for them what so ever. That is what quotation marks are for. Just remove them out altogether. Kill them with a burning passion. How will get the reader to understand who is speaking? You may wonder. Well, my good writers, that is what creativity is all about. Here is an example.

"He loves me." Juliet plucked a petal from the rose. "He loves me not."

Giving the character action, other than the accursed 'said' gives the scene more immersion. By putting who is talking immediately after the quotation it makes it clear who is speaking without using the word said. Yeah, I really don't like that word. Its a four letter word of writing as far as I am concerned. 

Oh and don't think that was all either. I also have issues with onesided narratives, two-dimensional characters, and (wish I could come up a three pun here somewhere) poorly contrived societies. This may all be because I studied psychology so I could write better stories. So lazy written story elements stick out to me.


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## pmmg (Feb 7, 2019)

Voydemain said:


> Said. It is redundant. Any word that describes that someone is speaking really, whether it be said, asked, yelled, barked whispered, etc. There is no reason for it for them what so ever. That is what quotation marks are for. Just remove them out altogether. Kill them with a burning passion. How will get the reader to understand who is speaking? You may wonder. Well, my good writers, that is what creativity is all about. Here is an example.



I don't know that I can agree with this. I don't think it is always clear who is actually speaking and said would seem to serve that purpose. Further, and just as an offhand thought, but sometimes words are needed or not needed to keep a certain type of flow. Further, I do think it is important at time to add the extra bit of description, such as barked or yelled, or just plain said.


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## Svrtnsse (Feb 7, 2019)

pmmg said:


> I don't know that I can agree with this. I don't think it is always clear who is actually speaking and said would seem to serve that purpose. Further, and just as an offhand thought, but sometimes words are needed or not needed to keep a certain type of flow. Further, I do think it is important at time to add the extra bit of description, such as barked or yelled, or just plain said.


It's the kind of thing that varies from person to person. 

I currently have an aversion to _which_, but that does't mean it's wrong to use it. It's just a matter of style. Some writers use more beats. Some use tags. What matter is if it works or not. Nothing's going to work for everyone. 

I use _said _when I need to pick up the pace of a conversation and if it needs to be even quicker I drop tags and beats completely, but not for long.

Another pet peeve of mine is characters who take the time to explain things to the main character, even though those things really should be obvious to anyone living in the world. Favourite (not) example from something I read recently was someone who got attacked by some monster in the forest. The monster paused and explained to the character who they were and what they did, and then proceeded with the fight.


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## Alora pendrak (Mar 2, 2019)

Svrtnsse said:


> It's the kind of thing that varies from person to person.
> 
> I currently have an aversion to _which_, but that does't mean it's wrong to use it. It's just a matter of style. Some writers use more beats. Some use tags. What matter is if it works or not. Nothing's going to work for everyone.
> 
> ...


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## ScorpionWoman (Mar 15, 2019)

Too much use if the same word. I'm not talking just words like said, very, whisphered and such. It gets redundant when the same descriptors keep popping up in one piece of work. It starts to ruin the images and pull me out of the story.


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## Hir i-Chorvath (Jun 7, 2019)

It really gets on my nerves when the kids are the heroes of the story and then all of the sudden the adults are incompetent. I don't mind kid heroes but when the adults are constantly getting stuck in situations where they can't do anything, it bugs me. The adults know more than the kids and are more experienced and should act like it but, no can do, it is _always_ the kids who frequently don't even know what they are doing and are relying heavily on luck that save the day.
Also, fight scenes, most of the time no one gets hurt and definitely no one dies, no one important anyway. I want the characters to get hurt because it adds some real tension to the fight. If you know that they won't get hurt then you can just skip the fight scene and assume that they get all the highwaymen, orcs, or whatever they are, doing cool moves and so on. I want to feel like they really have a chance of dying and for the fight to be at least semi-realistic concerning that.


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## Rkcapps (Jun 8, 2019)

Svrtnsse said:


> Another pet peeve of mine is characters who take the time to explain things to the main character, even though those things really should be obvious to anyone living in the world. Favourite (not) example from something I read recently was someone who got attacked by some monster in the forest. The monster paused and explained to the character who they were and what they did, and then proceeded with the fight.



Yes, maid and butler type scenarios. Oh please, beat me silly if I do that! But, in first drafts, it's useful, but the job of a writer is to turn the vomit-on-the-page into something readable.

My pet peeve on a line-by-line level is "was ... ing" i.e. was running, was hitting etc. Why can't authors make it active! 

On a big picture scale, it's lack of agency. After the debate scene, the character must have agency. Until then, it's ok for them to react, IMHO.


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## briar_rose (Jun 13, 2019)

My pet peeve is when the whole premise of a book is driven by things happening* to* the characters, as opposed to them driving it forward by their own actions or decisions.


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## skip.knox (Jun 13, 2019)

Of all the pets I've had, my peeves are my favorites. They're easily trained, ever faithful, and are great fun at parties.


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## Maker of Things Not Kings (Jun 14, 2019)

Depends on the genre. With YA, I am weary of the characters who, dwelling in what is supposed to be a world so different from ours,  act exactly like their age appropriate counterparts from our world. Especially the teens and parents, though I understand this is important in some cases to keep teen readers interested and I often forgive it as long as it does not dominate or steer the story arc. But it never rings true when a teen _Queen_ from another world is all agog over what inevitably turns out to be the most handsome boy/man/prince she has ever seen or is so concerned about her own looks. Is every world dominated by vanity and rampant hormones? It seems we give younger readers (middle grade etc)  the benefit of the doubt that they can handle broader stories and dark horror but by the time they are teens we are trying to put them into a reader box and play on their stereotypical hormones instead of giving them the chance to expand their worlds and find true heroes. This has been changing of late and the teens I know and discuss stories with are so grateful for it.  

Adult Fantasy: Poorly done/unbelievable magic systems and, in worlds that are beset by an abundance of violence, heroes who are never truly in danger or injured in a way that makes me feel they are at risk. I suppose it's why I am a big fan of third person POV in fantasy. What first person character is going to be in any true danger of meeting their demise before the end of the story?  

Writing in general: Formulaic work. I agree there are requirements and promises to fulfill in writing but I appreciate when I cannot see them from a mile away. I think a lot of writing advice fails to convey the fact that you can hit subtle points, turns and goals in a book with as much power as large ones. I never tear a book apart when reading but I like when I have to really hunt for the formula in a chapter or overall story arc. 

And, of course, the formulaic in structure.  Oh yes, I rebel! One of the best stories I've read of late was "A Green and Ancient Light" by Frederic Durbin. Cannot say enough about it but I didn't realize until after I finished it that it's a three hundred page book without a single chapter break. I have no idea why the author went that route but it was both refreshing and enlightening to see it done and (not self) published and that it wasn't even an issue, or noted, as I read.  I fall in love with characters and stories, not the formula and standard of how a book is presented or put together. 

 See also books like _The Night Circus _or _Darker Shade of Magic  _or_ The Witches of New York.  _Each of these runs astray from the norm in novel format in one way or another but tells the most wonderful of stories and all are on my top twenty books list. And then there's Brandon Sanderson's (was it SIX in one book?) prologue fetish. Lovely!


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## CupofJoe (Jun 14, 2019)

I've been trying to think of my peeves are [pet or otherwise] and I don't think I have any. As long as it is a good tale, well told I'll put up with just about anything. I read Hammett, Dickens, Lovecraft, Tolkien, Pratchett, Steinbeck, Hillerman and more, so I think I'll take anything I like... [though I'm still baulking at Cervantes a bit - that is one huge tale]


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## Zander Willmore (Nov 17, 2019)

I really dont like first person books.  When I read I like to know what people are thinking.  I also hate the whole farm boy destined for greatness plot line.  It has been over done.


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## Gurkhal (Jan 16, 2020)

The more good-vs-evil a story is the worse I think of it. 

That's why I loved GRRM back in the day and now have mostly lost faith in him.


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## Gospodin (Feb 19, 2020)

The uncontextualized "character generation paragraph".

Action, action, dialogue, action... and now for an intermission paragraph wherein I describe Character X, tip-to-toe, in full and complete detail, giving a shoulder as cold as dry ice to the constraints of the narrative mode that was chosen.

Books where I cannot parse the actual title.

*Lacy Angels
"The Metatron"
*​*Book One in the Choir of Angels Sagas
A Celestial Book​
*


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## AMObst (Feb 20, 2020)

Apologies in advance if this upsets anyone, but I generally get put off stories where the men are the kings/warriors/saviours and the women are either beautiful but mainly decorative characters or evil witches. I like female characters with agency, but also in a made-up world where magic exists, I don't see any specific reason why social gender roles can't be completely different from our real historical ones.


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## Maker of Things Not Kings (Feb 20, 2020)

AMObst said:


> I don't see any specific reason why social gender roles can't be completely different from our real historical ones.



I suspect the reason often has to do with the fact one would have to do the work to recreate those roles from the ground up? I'd love to see it done more but it seems the common path is to cast the female characters against the gender roles we already have but it gets old rather fast. Though, now that I think of it,  Alice Hoffman's _The Foretelling _does a fine job of proving it isn't necessary to recreate the entire world, setting her main character against the constraints and ideals of the Amazon-like/horse culture she has grown up in.


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## AMObst (Feb 20, 2020)

Maker of Things Not Kings said:


> I suspect the reason often has to do with the fact one would have to do the work to recreate those roles from the ground up? I'd love to see it done more but it seems the common path is to cast the female characters against the gender roles we already have but it gets old rather fast. Though, now that I think of it,  Alice Hoffman's _The Foretelling _does a fine job of proving it isn't necessary to recreate the entire world, setting her main character against the constraints and ideals of the Amazon-like/horse culture she has grown up in.



Yes, perhaps you're right. And it's a matter of personal preference too, of course. For me, the existence of magic in a world could act as a leveller with the genders, in that physical strength might not play as great a role in history (and the getting of power) than it has in our world, which means that women in general might experience more equality.

There are a few writers who I think do this quite well, and maybe without having to do everything from scratch, are Kate Elliott, Melissa Caruso, and NK Jemison. I'm sure there are others, but those are the ones who I've read and been impressed by.


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## Steerpike (Feb 20, 2020)

Gospodin said:


> The uncontextualized "character generation paragraph".
> 
> Action, action, dialogue, action... and now for an intermission paragraph wherein I describe Character X, tip-to-toe, in full and complete detail, giving a shoulder as cold as dry ice to the constraints of the narrative mode that was chosen.



Any description of a character's physical appearance that doesn't come close to introduction of the character irks me. I ignore it. Exception: newly acquired physical characteristics.


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## Svrtnsse (Feb 20, 2020)

Steerpike said:


> Any description of a character's physical appearance that doesn't come close to introduction of the character irks me. I ignore it. Exception: newly acquired physical characteristics.


Slightly off-topic, but I wrote a guest post for a friend's blog about just this: Guest Post: Respect Your Reader's Imagination


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## Svrtnsse (Feb 20, 2020)

More on topic...

The words _which_ and _as_, when used for micro-infodumps or to try and show things happening simultaneously.


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## Steerpike (Feb 20, 2020)

Svrtnsse said:


> Slightly off-topic, but I wrote a guest post for a friend's blog about just this: Guest Post: Respect Your Reader's Imagination



Nice post, Nils. I agree wholeheartedly.


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## Steerpike (Feb 20, 2020)

Svrtnsse said:


> More on topic...
> 
> The words _which_ and _as_, when used for micro-infodumps or to try and show things happening simultaneously.



At the risk of being overly pedantic, whenever an author screws up the use of _that_ versus _which_ it yanks me right out of what I'm reading. I've tried to train myself not to react to it, but I can't help it. Not sure why, but that one gets me when other grammatical errors are easy to breeze past.


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## Gospodin (Feb 20, 2020)

Svrtnsse said:


> Slightly off-topic, but I wrote a guest post for a friend's blog about just this: Guest Post: Respect Your Reader's Imagination


Not to mention that the uncontextualized paragraph of which I speak breaks two major, interrelated rules:

1) Unless the story is old-school 3rd omniscient, any description of a character is going to be filtered through a POV character's engagement. Either a 1st person narrator, or a 3rd limited (with the rare 3rd objective popping up now and again). No living human scans another human, tip-to-toe to register a 3D model in their heads. Ask a police sketch artist. People initially see key points, key things that draw attention. This may be something unique or unusual about the observed party, or it may be something the observing party regularly notes in others.

2) Inserting that kind of paragraph into anything other than a 3rd omniscient story is felony narrative intrusion.



Steerpike said:


> Any description of a character's physical appearance that doesn't come close to introduction of the character irks me. I ignore it. Exception: newly acquired physical characteristics.


I only need some "anchor descriptions" off the bat. More can trickle in later for me as the characters get to know one another better.


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## MrNybble (Feb 20, 2020)

I get a deep emotional sigh when people write about characters with long lifespans that have no history. Prince blah, blah, blah, is just had there 15,000th birth day, yet they act like a fifteen-year-old. A race of people that live for a thousand years not having things like accidents, diseases, or sickness that can drastically shorten that time. Better yet there are dragons that can be a million years old but are asleep most of the time making it more like a hundred years when awake.


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## AMObst (Feb 21, 2020)

Gospodin said:


> Not to mention that the uncontextualized paragraph of which I speak breaks two major, interrelated rules:
> 
> 1) Unless the story is old-school 3rd omniscient, any description of a character is going to be filtered through a POV character's engagement. Either a 1st person narrator, or a 3rd limited (with the rare 3rd objective popping up now and again). No living human scans another human, tip-to-toe to register a 3D model in their heads. Ask a police sketch artist. People initially see key points, key things that draw attention. This may be something unique or unusual about the observed party, or it may be something the observing party regularly notes in others.
> 
> ...



Or the extension to that, is where that POV character looks in a mirror and describes _themselves _in detail.


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## Gospodin (Feb 21, 2020)

AMObst said:


> Or the extension to that, is where that POV character looks in a mirror and describes _themselves _in detail.


Sweet Cthulhu, pull me under the waves...


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## Maker of Things Not Kings (Feb 22, 2020)

AMObst said:


> Yes, perhaps you're right. And it's a matter of personal preference too, of course. For me, the existence of magic in a world could act as a leveller with the genders, in that physical strength might not play as great a role in history (and the getting of power) than it has in our world, which means that women in general might experience more equality.



True. And, unless that world is set up as patriarchal and repressive of that magic, it SHOULD be a leveler.  I don't know how it couldn't. The Kendara Blake series _Three Dark Crowns_ did a fine job, I thought, of flipping the tables, which I enjoyed just as much as one where the magic is on equal footing.  

As for the authors you mention. N.K. Jemisin does everything well.  Though it is outside the context of what we were discussing, her _Killing Moon_ is one of my favorite books/worlds.

I had to look up the others. I DID pick up_ Court of Fives _in the library once but the first line of the jacket description,_"Jessamy's life is a balance between acting like an upper-class Patron and dreaming of the freedom of the Commoners"_, made me put it down.  Something about, _dreaming of the freedom of commoners, _made me roll my eyes but I'll admit, that's on me for making such swift judgement and I'd be willing to give it a chance. Do you recommend anything by Elliot or Caruso in particular?


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## AMObst (Feb 24, 2020)

Maker of Things Not Kings said:


> True. And, unless that world is set up as patriarchal and repressive of that magic, it SHOULD be a leveler.  I don't know how it couldn't. The Kendara Blake series _Three Dark Crowns_ did a fine job, I thought, of flipping the tables, which I enjoyed just as much as one where the magic is on equal footing.
> 
> As for the authors you mention. N.K. Jemisin does everything well.  Though it is outside the context of what we were discussing, her _Killing Moon_ is one of my favorite books/worlds.
> 
> I had to look up the others. I DID pick up_ Court of Fives _in the library once but the first line of the jacket description,_"Jessamy's life is a balance between acting like an upper-class Patron and dreaming of the freedom of the Commoners"_, made me put it down.  Something about, _dreaming of the freedom of commoners, _made me roll my eyes but I'll admit, that's on me for making such swift judgement and I'd be willing to give it a chance. Do you recommend anything by Elliot or Caruso in particular?



Court of Fives is so much more than that description implies, and deals with themes including colonialism and ethic tensions, but to tell you more would involve spoilers. It's also YA, which may not be to everyone's taste.

I would recommend Elliott's Crossroads series (starting with Spirit Gate) and Spiritwalker series (starting with Cold Magic - note this series is steampunk) as good starting points. 

Caruso only has one trilogy published so far, andI thought it was excellent (she's publishing the start of a new trilogy this year). First book of the existing series is called The Tethered Mage, which is good, but in my view the second and third books is really where she comes into her own.


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## Maker of Things Not Kings (Feb 25, 2020)

AMObst said:


> Court of Fives is so much more than that description implies, and deals with themes including colonialism and ethic tensions, but to tell you more would involve spoilers. It's also YA, which may not be to everyone's taste.



Thank you for the suggestions! I'm actually quite fond of a lot of YA fantasy, (anything with a good story and strong characters behind it) so I'll give those a try.


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## Lynea (Mar 20, 2020)

I don't hate on LGBT+ stuff. Lately, I've been noticing a lot of stories that just suddenly and randomly turn their characters gay. If you _know_ your characters and you _know_ they're supposed to be gay, that's one thing. Forcing your character to be gay just to get that corner of the market is another... I can usually tell when someone is just trying to get more sales with that and it's a big turn off for me.


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## The Blue Lotus (Mar 22, 2020)

My # 1 Pet Peev is: Weak dialogue. 
It drives me crazy... It's not that hard to write a convincing conversation. Don't shortcut this! Most do. No idea why. UGH!
There are others, but this is the one that burns my buttons.


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## DustinBilyk (Jun 7, 2020)

My biggest pet peeve, and I see this all the time in my editing, is the propensity to TELL instead of SHOW. 

Info dumps are the death of good writing. Instead of giving me three paragraphs of prose/dialogue explaining how noble and chivalrous Sir Frederick is, try showing me in one paragraph how he went out of his way to pull a street kid out of the way of a runaway horse cart.

Characteristics, even physical ones, are best shown through action. Unfortunately, I see this in book after book after book today, especially in some of the newer YA. Keep the story moving and don't bog it down by telling your readers how they should feel about your characters. SHOW them ^^


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## Kasper Hviid (Jun 12, 2020)

*Every 2nd chapter taking place in the past*
I guess some people must like it. But for me, it just disrupts the reading experience. Also, something that has happened decades ago in the story just feels irrelevant to me.

*Character arcs*
Okay, those can be plenty great, no denying that! But often, they just seem annoying and takes a lot of attention away from the story. Like when the protagonist is incompetent and whiny so he can do the usual personal development arc.

*The protagonist who makes really stupid decisions*
When I have gotten into a character's head, and see the world through his eyes, it just feels wrong to have him do something more stupid that I could have managed myself. Somehow, it rubs straight against my immersement.

*The author constantly withholding information*
This doesn't make me curious. I just feel completely indifferent and reads on.


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## Toby Johnson (Jan 25, 2021)

when a writer compares something in the book to something from the real world. 'his teeth were like corn flakes'. this just annoys me as i see it as lazy writing in fantasy. compare it to something that you put more than two seconds of thought into.


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## S.T. Ockenner (Jan 27, 2021)

skip.knox said:


> I still don't think I'd put the book down because of that, but gosh golly it was annoying. Woof.


he barked.


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