# Are Romance and Graphic sex two types of pandering?



## Miskatonic (May 21, 2015)

Just curious if people find these two story elements a way to attract readers that might otherwise have less interest?

Many seem to think that adding in romance is pandering to a female audience while graphic sex may be pandering to a particular male demographic. 

When books are adapted for TV this seems to increase tenfold. Game of Thrones being a perfect example.


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## valiant12 (May 21, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> Just curious if people find these two story elements a way to attract readers that might otherwise have less interest?
> 
> Many seem to think that adding in romance is pandering to a female audience while graphic sex may be pandering to a particular male demographic.
> 
> When books are adapted for TV this seems to increase tenfold. Game of Thrones being a perfect example.


The viewers who watch Game of Thrones for the sex are missing so much good plot. I dont think there are people who watch it only for that.
My personal opinion on romance is that sometimes it's used to attract male readers/viewers  as it can be an excuse to add another hot female character. And sex is definitely pandering to people who think fantasy is for kids.


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## Feo Takahari (May 21, 2015)

I wouldn't call it pandering per se, but I do think romance can be a way of attracting audiences who would be uninterested in the main plot. "I'm sure our international viewers don't want to see robots beating each other up! What they really want is another romance!" (To be fair, more people around the world have been in romances than have beaten up giant robots.)


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## cupiscent (May 21, 2015)

Everything can be pandering if it's added for reasons of audience-amusement rather than because the story needs it. Romance, sex, violence, banter (I'm looking at you, Joss Whedon), costume changes, explosions, llamas.

The flip side of that, of course, is that you should write what makes you excited. Pander to _yourself_ (and then be a little ruthless in editing). Don't pander to a perceived audience, because you have no real and honest way of knowing that that audience wants, or even whether they will exist when your story is published.


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## Steerpike (May 21, 2015)

No more pandering than any other story choice made with the audience in mind.


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## MineOwnKing (May 22, 2015)

When I feel myself slipping into a mood and it really becomes obvious on the page, I go and do the husband and wife thing, then I sit back down and delete everything and start over.


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## Garren Jacobsen (May 22, 2015)

I agree with Cup. You shouldn't make your writing decisions based on a hypothetical audience. Do what you like and what the story needs. Afterwards, you edit to make it something truly good. But to add a sex scene because your "audience" wants a sex scene, or write a romance that is there to capture the teenage girl demographic does a disservice to your writing.


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## cupiscent (May 22, 2015)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> ...or write a romance that is there to capture the teenage girl demographic does a disservice to your writing.



It also does a disservice to the teenage girl demographic. They deserve stories that are genuinely and enthusiastically delivered no less than anyone else.


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## Garren Jacobsen (May 22, 2015)

cupiscent said:


> It also does a disservice to the teenage girl demographic. They deserve stories that are genuinely and enthusiastically delivered no less than anyone else.



True enough. I should have thought through the comment a bit more. Whenever I answer these questions though I tend to focus on the writer.


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## Caged Maiden (May 22, 2015)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> But to add a sex scene because your "audience" wants a sex scene.



I agree with this to a point.  Gratuitous sex isn't any more attractive than gratuitous violence.  However, if you're writing a love story and the buildup is sufficient to lead to an intimate encounter...more than a few readers will be miffed if you "fade to black" depending on how much time was devoted to the subplot.  Audiences might legitimately want a sex scene if they've read a novel that applied considerable energy and tension to a love story.   I would.  That is not pandering to an audience, it's a matter of respecting readers and keeping your promises, I think.

I guess here's my take on romance and sex and sex scenes specifically--by how we choose to frame stories and use language, we communicate to readers what to expect, and I can honestly say romances were some of the most numerous reasons I put books down.  Prince of Thorns I finished, but I had a bad feeling Jorg was going to fall in love with that princess...and I just couldn't stomach that, so I never read past the first book.  It just made me gag to think he could go from treating women (and all people) like trash, to falling madly in love with (obsessed with, more like) that prim and proper example of womanhood...blech!  Not in a million years could I entertain that as something I'd want to read.  

Romance is a term I don't really like to use as much as "love story" because my relationships tend to be less romantic and more...awkward?  I do write people who genuinely love each other, but more often I write people who have conflict.  I think it makes their love stories more fun...especially for me.  That being said, sometimes my love stories never go deeper than a couple stolen kisses and a confession of love.  But I think readers will respond well to the story and circumstances.  Same for my story that has a pretty graphic intimate scene in chapter two...well all of chapter two, really.  It depends what a story calls for, if you ask me.  I just finished watching Orange is the New Black and it was full of gratuitous sex and nudity, and it kinda bothered me at times.  But the drama of the show was so f**king good...I just didn't care to complain about the things I didn't like.  The characters are super complex and the story was really good except for a few small things that struck me as jarring.  Crazy Eyes, V, Red, and Pennsetucky...polarizing characters all over.  that redeemed it for me.


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## PaulineMRoss (May 22, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> Romance is a term I don't really like to use as much as "love story" because my relationships tend to be less romantic and more...awkward?  I do write people who genuinely love each other, but more often I write people who have conflict.  I think it makes their love stories more fun...especially for me.  That being said, sometimes my love stories never go deeper than a couple stolen kisses and a confession of love.  But I think readers will respond well to the story and circumstances.  Same for my story that has a pretty graphic intimate scene in chapter two...well all of chapter two, really.  It depends what a story calls for, if you ask me.



You know, I really want to read your stuff. It sounds right up my alley.


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## Miskatonic (May 22, 2015)

I feel foolish writing romance or sex so I just leave them out!


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## Russ (May 22, 2015)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> I agree with Cup. You shouldn't make your writing decisions based on a hypothetical audience. Do what you like and what the story needs. Afterwards, you edit to make it something truly good. But to add a sex scene because your "audience" wants a sex scene, or write a romance that is there to capture the teenage girl demographic does a disservice to your writing.



I think this brings up a really interesting philosophical question about writing.

How much do we write for ourselves, how much do we write for the mythical story and how much do we write for our audience.

Many of the writers I know who make a very good living at this business tell me they primarily write for their audience.  Many of the literary authors I know, talk about it more in artistic terms as if the story was a life of its own and they are really  just interpreters of channelers of a story that already exists.  And some people write purely for themselves for either entertainment or therapeutic value (I never underestimate the mental health benefits of writing).

It seems to be a continuum from my perspective.

Personally I like a compromise.  I definately don't purely write for myself.  I think my story idea has intrinsic value even apart from me but always keep in mind that without an audience, I am nothing.  I could sit around that think up stuff all day long, but why bother writing it down if I don't want to share it to my, and my reader's mutual benefit.

The other question is how much if any harm or deflection does the added (or deleted)  material make in your book.  

For instance let's say I came to the conclusion that having two of my characters boff like bunnies would open a new  market to my book and sell a couple hundred more copies.  As long as it is not totally out of character for them I would do it for sure.  However if somebody told me the central theme of my book would offend a group and I have to take it out for sales sake I would not do it.

Interesting question and interesting responses.


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## Steerpike (May 22, 2015)

I think to some degree you're always writing for your audience. The extent to which that is conscious or subconscious may differ. If you're not writing for an audience, why publish, and why try to perfect your craft using techniques that have been shown effective with audiences over time, why post something for critique to see what an 'audience' thinks about it? Everything from tense and POV to scene selection, order, etc. are very often done at least partially with an audience in mind. They don't _have_ to be, but they generally are. A decision of whether to add sex or romance based on a potential audience is no different than any of those other decisions. Each decision has the potential to attract a certain subset of the potential audience, and to repel another subset.

And it doesn't even stop with the writing. I know someone who has a contract with Tor. Her editors decided they wanted to play up the romance angle of her fantasy novel, and had her make some changes, pre-publication, to target it more for that audience. They also asked her to remove a scene in which an infant dies, because they thought that was too heavy for the audience they wanted to market to.

I suppose you can argue about whether it is selling out if you make changes because a publisher wants you to do it so they can market the book more effectively, but well before that, during the writing phase, there are a lot of decisions that are made at least partially with an audience in mind.


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## Garren Jacobsen (May 22, 2015)

Steerpike said:


> I think to some degree you're always writing for your audience. The extent to which that is conscious or subconscious may differ. If you're not writing for an audience, why publish, and why try to perfect your craft using techniques that have been shown effective with audiences over time, why post something for critique to see what an 'audience' thinks about it? Everything from tense and POV to scene selection, order, etc. are very often done at least partially with an audience in mind. They don't _have_ to be, but they generally are. A decision of whether to add sex or romance based on a potential audience is no different than any of those other decisions. Each decision has the potential to attract a certain subset of the potential audience, and to repel another subset.
> 
> And it doesn't even stop with the writing. I know someone who has a contract with Tor. Her editors decided they wanted to play up the romance angle of her fantasy novel, and had her make some changes, pre-publication, to target it more for that audience. They also asked her to remove a scene in which an infant dies, because they thought that was too heavy for the audience they wanted to market to.
> 
> I suppose you can argue about whether it is selling out if you make changes because a publisher wants you to do it so they can market the book more effectively, but well before that, during the writing phase, there are a lot of decisions that are made at least partially with an audience in mind.



I agree with that but my issue is when an author does something to pander to an audience that is out of tone, out of character, or is out of world. Like when Paolini made the Raxacor reference in Inheritance. That, I felt, was out of world and tone. It was pandering to the Whodom who loves subtle references to the Dr. I myself enjoy them. But it was too much. Similarly, if Harry Potter had a fairly explicit sex scene, then I would have problems. Not because its an invalid choice, but it is out of tone. I also would find it odd if Varys from GoT went whoring because an audience wanted. That would be out of character. This is when I have issues.


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## Steerpike (May 22, 2015)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> I agree with that but my issue is when an author does something to pander to an audience that is out of tone, out of character, or is out of world. Like when Paolini made the Raxacor reference in Inheritance. That, I felt, was out of world and tone. It was pandering to the Whodom who loves subtle references to the Dr. I myself enjoy them. But it was too much. Similarly, if Harry Potter had a fairly explicit sex scene, then I would have problems. Not because its an invalid choice, but it is out of tone. I also would find it odd if Varys from GoT went whoring because an audience wanted. That would be out of character. This is when I have issues.



Yes. Whatever you do, you have to make it work. As with the thread on modern v. archaic dialogue - whatever you choose, it has to fit with the overall tone and style of the story or it won't be effective. But to me that doesn't get to the pandering issue. Having sex or romance isn't any more pandering, in my view, than having any other element of a story that an audience is meant to enjoy. If you've just tossed in the sex or romance as an afterthought, and it is out of place in your story, then you haven't done an effective job. If you think it through and add it into the story in a way that works, then you have done an effective job. But the reasons for doing either seem to me to be at least in part audience-based in both cases.


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## Russ (May 22, 2015)

Which makes me think the real solution is to throw in sex and romance to pander to your audience but do it so well they it does not appear to be an add on.


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## BWFoster78 (May 22, 2015)

Russ,

I get it when literary fiction writers look down their noses at us perveyors of genre fiction.  After all, they're creating art. (Tongue planted firmly in cheek, btw)

I've seen all too often, however (other places much, much moreso than at MS - just to be clear), scifi and fantasy authors declaring that attitudes like yours are somehow inferior.  Like being true to yourself in creating your fantasy story has so much merit and writing something that you think readers will enjoy is somehow cheap and deplorable.

I just don't get that attitude.

Worse, I see those people complain that no one is buying their book.

Huh?

If you're writing a book to please yourself, your expectation should be that one person in the world will like that book - you.  If others like it, great.  If not, oh well.

I'm working very hard to try to write in a way that readers will find interesting.  It's not freaking easy.


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## Miskatonic (May 23, 2015)

Russ said:


> I think this brings up a really interesting philosophical question about writing.
> 
> How much do we write for ourselves, how much do we write for the mythical story and how much do we write for our audience.



Writing for the audience more than is necessary is a trap and it ends up being the road that leads to leads to writers that pump out the same novel over and over. These writers can certainly make a hefty sum if they create a memorable character, but it can still become a compromise that stifles creativity. Just look at the endless number of mystery and detective novels on the market. It's a bottomless pit.

This isn't to say that an artist should avoid developing a style that can be found in the books they write, however, ideally, it should be based on what they want to create, not on what the publisher dictates because marketing can calculate the number of books sold based on the formula. Unfortunately this is how creativity ends up if anyone wants to improve their chances of success, the TV spin-off or the movie adaptation, which is still an extreme rarity. 

A writer should write what they would like to read and what they feel is not being represented enough in the publishing world, and at the same time be open-minded to advice and suggestions from critics and fans.


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## The Stranger (Aug 21, 2015)

basically, its only pandering if it was specifically put in to appeal to a certain demographic. if its there because it fits within the context of the story and serves to further the plot or develop character, than its not pandering


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## Cambra (Aug 22, 2015)

I really can't conceive romance without sex... By that I don't mean that it in every romance the protagonists actually have sex, but there is a sexual aspect to every romance... And we are currently living in the 21st century so why not show it?

It is also bollocks excuse my Anglosaxon that women only want romance and love having the bedroom door slammed in their faces whereas men only want what goes on behind that door...

But then I started writing as a fan fictioner, my father was a graphic artist and I am old and jaded.

PS I write for myself, why else would I go to so much effort?


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## skip.knox (Aug 22, 2015)

It troubles me to have romance considered pandering to females. Just feels too much like a stereotype.

That aside, I have major characters who are thrown together in a terrible crisis over a period of months. They are each of them alone in various ways. Just as it seems likely two or more of them would form friendships in the crucible of war, it seems likely there would be romance. Or, rather, it seems very unlikely no sort of relationships would form.

So, it's natural.

I have another story that takes place over the course of a single night, at the end of which one of the characters dies. A romance there would feel arbitrary and forced.

IOW, bow first to the story. The audience can take care of themselves.


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