# Is magic mandatory?



## FictionQuest (Nov 7, 2011)

If there is no magic and nothing supernatural, is it still fantasy? Can you have an imaginary world with imaginary creatures and leave out the magic?


----------



## Seth son of Tom (Nov 7, 2011)

i think imaginary world and creatures is enough. i'd say the main thing that makes it fantasy is that it's in a world that doesn't exist, even if it's a world within our world. (e.g. harry potter) that said magic can just be a lot of fun, but i don't think it's mandatory.


----------



## Johnny Cosmo (Nov 7, 2011)

I'm excluding magic, but my world is a little magical. It's in an imaginary world, there are myth-inspired creatures, and the ethnicities are somewhat more distinct than real world equivalents. So there's no real magic in my story, and I think that's fine.


----------



## Devor (Nov 7, 2011)

Of course magic is mandatory!  That's why they call it the literary arts.  Or didn't I understand the question?


----------



## Johnny Cosmo (Nov 7, 2011)

> Of course magic is mandatory! That's why they call it the literary arts. Or didn't I understand the question?



You've lost me. Explain?


----------



## Devor (Nov 7, 2011)

Johnny Cosmo said:


> You've lost me. Explain?



I'm sorry, I'm probably using a little too much snark here.  I only mean that its more important for the "magic" to come from the artistic elements of the story rather than anything else.


----------



## Johnny Cosmo (Nov 7, 2011)

Ah, I thought you misunderstood. Of course the artistic elements are important! But that's off-topic...


----------



## Devor (Nov 7, 2011)

FictionQuest said:


> If there is no magic and nothing supernatural, is it still fantasy? Can you have an imaginary world with imaginary creatures and leave out the magic?



To really answer the question, "Fantasy" is an over-broad category which includes just about anything in an unreal world or a story in the real world with supernatural elements.  I think someone somewhere has probably created subcategories of fantasy, where wizards and elves are elements of "classical fantasy" or something similar.  I'm not sure anyone here seriously draws those lines.


----------



## Map the Dragon (Nov 7, 2011)

FictionQuest said:


> If there is no magic and nothing supernatural, is it still fantasy? Can you have an imaginary world with imaginary creatures and leave out the magic?



Yes
Yes

Not that this helps much. However, fantasy is not a prerequisite by any means. There are many more elements to be included as useful traits of the fantasy genre.


----------



## FictionQuest (Nov 7, 2011)

I am glad to see positive responses to my question. I think magic can make a story exciting but I also feel it is a little too easy to rely on it for effect. It is often used inconsistently and illogically I feel. Having said that, I am looking for stories with or without magic for FictionQuest.


----------



## Elder the Dwarf (Nov 7, 2011)

To respond to the original question, I don't think so, although most people do associate the two.  My current work is in a world with very little magic, because the magic has disappeared (due to several reasons, but I won't get in to that).  A good example of works with little magic in them is the Drenai series.  There is magic in the world, but in most of the books it has a very minor role.


----------



## Solomon Tan (Nov 8, 2011)

I think magic is not mandatory. It's your choice in your fantasy world. of course, with magic, it's easier to link it to fantasy world setting. Throwing a fireball seems a standard for fantasy story.. Can't find that in a romance story.. haha


----------



## Terra Arkay (Nov 9, 2011)

I say hell to the no.


----------



## Sheilawisz (Nov 10, 2011)

Hello!! =) I think that magic is not really mandatory when you write Fantasy stories... I mean, it's very fun to use magic and it's like the trademark of fantasy settings, but if your story is about a different world with different creatures and other fantastical elements then it can be Fantasy even without magic!!

In my stories my magic is like really really powerful and all my mages can do things like nuking cities and causing reality warping to a massive scale, so I don't feel comfortable with the idea of writing a story with little or no magic... but it can be done and it would be very original =)

Sheila


----------



## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 12, 2011)

I'm more impressed by my highly skilled swordsmen and other non-magic characters because of how much they can accomplish alongside or against supernatural beings and magic-users. I think you can have a great fantasy novel in which people rely on the natural abilities and trained talents of mind and body.

One thing worth keeping in mind--even a non-magic character can appear to be magical or extraordinary. For example, think of a hero who has an adrenaline rush and, along with the phenomenal increase in physical prowess, he starts seeing things happening before him in slow motion. To the casual observer, this hero is super-human.

To the writer, perhaps this^ hero has trained himself to "will" this intense adrenaline surge. (Questionably-realistic martial arts fantasy?) Or maybe this is just a fluke--a one-time thing that brings attention to the hero who is just a normal person. (Realistic accidental hero fantasy?)


----------



## Thalian (Nov 12, 2011)

I wouldn't say magic is mandatory, but it does help explain some occurences and objects. Like Tolkien did in Middle-Earth, his magic is very background because you don't see Gandalf walking through a legion of orcs and killing them all with one spell, yet magic is very much present in Middle-Earth. But no, magical isn't mandatory even though magic and fantasy always seem to go hand-in-hand. One can still create a very realistic world and its inhabitants without the use of magic, provided you are dedicated to taking your time to explain everything where needed that still makes sense without the use of magic.


----------



## Worldbreaker (Nov 13, 2011)

I wouldn't say it's mandatory but a lot of times it can add a lot more depth to a story(if it's done right, there should be a logical system to it, and limits to what you can do with the magic.) but it really just depends on the story you are telling.


----------



## Sheilawisz (Nov 13, 2011)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> I'm more impressed by my highly skilled swordsmen and other non-magic characters because of how much they can accomplish alongside or against supernatural beings and magic-users. I think you can have a great fantasy novel in which people rely on the natural abilities and trained talents of mind and body.


I agree that sometimes non-magical characters are more inspiring and more impressive than powerful mages, and I think that happens because you can relate to them more easily and you feel they are more... real

I did not come up with super mages in my stories because I want to impress readers, I do it because I am totally obsessed with power and so my magical characters end up being extremely powerful and I love them that way =)

Sheila


----------



## Thalian (Nov 13, 2011)

Not to mention that powerful magical beings tend to be smug and look down at everyone else in the story, so I can never seem to get to know them and relate to them.


----------



## Sheilawisz (Nov 14, 2011)

Thalian said:


> Not to mention that powerful magical beings tend to be smug and look down at everyone else in the story, so I can never seem to get to know them and relate to them.


It's like you are describing my characters!! They look down at the common people so badly that they don't even care to rule their worlds... there's a part when a Queen of the commoners is commanding her armies, and then, riding, she leads the charge against an army of monsters even though she knows that death is certain and there's no way to survive- I felt very inspired by her, she felt so real compared to the mages =)


----------



## SLTE (Nov 14, 2011)

As with pretty much everybody else in the thread, I agree that magic is far from compulsory in fantasy. In some stories it's just not gonna fit, so why risk messing up a perfectly good story just to fit with expectations?


----------



## Lamar (Nov 14, 2011)

I don't think authors really need to worry about the categorization of their work, at least not while they're writing them.

Take, for example, Margaret Atwood. Her novel "The Handmaid's Tale" takes place in the future. For that reason, it is sometimes classified as "science fiction," something the author has opposed. Other than the fact that it takes place in the future, there is little or nothing that deals with issues of science in the book; it's a political story, not a story about science or technology's affects on society. That being said, the debate over whether "Handmaid's Tale" should be classified as SF or not sometimes overshadows the author's intent and the work itself.

My point is that I don't think how the book would be classified -- its marketing category -- ever really occurred to Atwood as she was writing it. The setting was simply a means of creating a setting in which she could tell the story she had in mind.

Likewise, you're interested in telling a story that shares some elements with other works that get lumped into the marketing category "fantasy." You can't really worry about that. You need to tell the story you want to tell. At least, that's true as a writer.

Something you may need to keep in mind is that publishers really like works that fit neatly into their preconceived marketing categories. They know what to do with those. If you write a book that very clearly fits into the Tolkienesque fantasy category, publishers interested in that sort of thing will know how to market it and to whom. The more your work strays outside the various niches defined by publishers and booksellers, the more difficult it will be to get an agent, if you don' t have one already, or a publisher.

While you have to recognize these sorts of things, you shouldn't let it force you into a direction you don't want to go in. Write your story. Don't worry about the business details until they become an issue.


----------



## Thalian (Nov 14, 2011)

It is just so much easier to relate to a fighter, for myself anyways. If you are a reader of RA Salvatore's novels it is apparent that he hates spellcasters just as much as anybody judging by the amount of powerful mages and whatnot he has killed off over the years.


----------



## SeverinR (Nov 23, 2011)

I don't think a parrellel universe with nothing different but setting would be very interesting, I think it would fall better into plain fiction rather then fantasy.
There has to be some kind of fantastic element to be fantasy. Authors/(more important) readers definition of fantastic element.

Magic is not manditory, you can have fantasy type creatures and easily fit in fantasy genre.  
A unicorn in Eastern or Western Medievil times would still be fantasy.


----------



## Phoenix (Nov 23, 2011)

Magic is defiantly not mandatory. That is one great thing about fantasy...it can be almost about anything!  History writers (for example) have to write things according to history, with fantasy you can write anything you want/ Although it is very rare to find an Epic Fantasy without magic. Even A Song of Ice and Fire has some magic, it doesn't constantly use it and isn't necessary (for the most part) to the plot (well not yet). They do like dragons though...


----------



## mirrorrorrim (Nov 26, 2011)

Lamar said:


> I don't think authors really need to worry about the categorization of their work, at least not while they're writing them.
> 
> Take, for example, Margaret Atwood. Her novel "The Handmaid's Tale" takes place in the future. For that reason, it is sometimes classified as "science fiction," something the author has opposed. Other than the fact that it takes place in the future, there is little or nothing that deals with issues of science in the book; it's a political story, not a story about science or technology's affects on society. That being said, the debate over whether "Handmaid's Tale" should be classified as SF or not sometimes overshadows the author's intent and the work itself.
> 
> ...



Very well said; I agree completely. I remember reading an interview with either Terry Brooks or R. A. Salvatore (I can't remember which) right after he wrote his novelization of one of the Star Wars movies. The interviewer asked him how it was to write science fiction, since most everything he'd written prior to that was fantasy. In effect, his response was, "I don't know. I still haven't written any science fiction." He explained that, while it has spaceships, aliens, different planets, and laser guns, Star Wars is very much a fantasy universe.

For me, the distinction between the two genres isn't the setting, but the part of a person it appeals to. Most science fiction I've read appeals to the readers' brains, while fantasy appeals to their hearts. Science fiction will have an interesting idea, while fantasy will have a touching one.

To use recent movies as an example, I feel that Inception is very much science fiction. Its main message seems to be intended to get the audience thinking. 

Avatar, on the other hand, is pure fantasy. It is all about getting the audience to feel something.

Because of this, I feel fantasy usually has a much stronger moral message with clear "good guys" and "bad guys," and when written poorly (or even well), it can come across as very heavy-handed. With science fiction, everything's usually a lot greyer, and you're often not sure when you finished it what happened in the story was a good thing or a bad thing.

These are my own definitions, though. I'm not sure how many other people would agree with them.


----------



## Steerpike (Nov 27, 2011)

Mirrorrorrim:

I don't know if I necessarily agree with the feelings/intellect distinction, but I do agree that both Star Wars and Avatar are Fantasy. For me, science fiction utilizes established principles of science (thus, the presence of that word in the name of the genre), and then extrapolates from them. When it departs from them it does so with an explanation that has some degree of plausibility (though the level of explanation and plausibility can vary quite a bit). If something happens in your story that violates the laws of thermodynamics, for example, and there is never an explanation as to how, or an attempt to render it plausible, you've moved into Fantasy territory. Likewise, if you have space ships flying around in space, but behaving exactly as though they are in an atmosphere (Star Wars), then you are also in Fantasy territory.


----------



## ThinkerX (Nov 27, 2011)

I remember reading some commentary by George RR Martin on his 'Song of Ice and Fire' series a few years ago.

He says he spent a great deal of time trying to decide whether to go with a 'no magic' world or a 'low magic' world when doing the initial prep work for the series.  In the end, the 'low magic' version won...but just barely.  Consider: the vast bulk of the action in this series is political and personal.  While there are a few characters who have magic of one sort or another, almost none of the POV ones actually think of themselves as being 'magicians' - and these characters are usually at the fringes of the real action.  Bran, for example, basically disappears into the wilderness, Arya really doesn't know what she is doing, and Dany is plagued with petty magicians - but get right down to it, they are pathetic as magicians go. A couple of characters are present during some fairly spectular sorcerery (like Renly's assassination), but this is the exception, not the rule.


----------



## Matthew Bishop (Dec 7, 2011)

This is something I've been struggling with also. I have a lot books that I've written and am now beginning to market, and there is not any magic in any of them whatsoever. I simply don't write magic. There are elements that are mythological, and mythological beings may use certain powers, but they are in the background and not even present in five of the books, except for one book which is entirely mythological. Dragons are used as peripheral elements that can make a difference in the timing of events or a battle, but they are not a huge part of the story. There is no mind-reading, shape-shifting, etc. And, furthermore, humans are the only race-- at least, the only race that the reader is aware of without reading the stand alone "Beginnings". I've just been calling the books "Realist Fantasy", but is that right? It is set in anther world, but aside from that there are no fantastical elements central to the story, other than the sense the reader feels from the few mythological elements or allusions. What else could this genre be called?


----------



## Matthew Bishop (Dec 7, 2011)

It did seem to me that magic was a bit out-of-place in those stories. It seems to distract from the real issues, and it makes certain obstacles far too easy to overcome.


----------



## Reaver (Dec 7, 2011)

Not that my opinion is worth a wooden nickel---I believe that magic is far from mandatory in fantasy---that's the beauty of it.


----------



## Darwin (Feb 20, 2012)

FictionQuest said:


> If there is no magic and nothing supernatural, is it still fantasy? Can you have an imaginary world with imaginary creatures and leave out the magic?



Absolutely.  The fact that you've created your world with it's own inhabitants that differs from our own makes it a fantasy right off the bat.


----------



## Darwin (Feb 20, 2012)

Reaver said:


> Not that my opinion is worth a wooden nickel---I believe that magic is far from mandatory in fantasy---that's the beauty of it.



That's the magic of fantasy.  Sorry I couldn't resist.


----------



## Anders Ã„mting (Feb 21, 2012)

No narrative devices are mandatory, regardless of genre. They're tools, not rules.

Fantasy doesn't have to be magical; it just needs to be fantastical.


----------



## Caged Maiden (Feb 27, 2012)

I wrote a story that is non-magical.  It is set in a world much like ours (I never really even go into world details other than the city name and surrounding areas).  I love how it is.  I guess it's a drama-fantasy.


----------

