# Fantasy races and bigotry



## Black Dragon (Feb 19, 2011)

The issue of race is, obviously, a very sensitive matter.  As an author, do you ever explore topics such as racism, bigotry and intolerance by using the fantasy races of your created world?  

If so, do you find this to be constructive?  Or is this a topic that is simply too sensitive to explore in a fictional setting?


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## Ravana (Feb 20, 2011)

Fiction authors explore it all the time… though far more in science fiction than fantasy. And usually in undisguised form: the characters are all human, and differ in skin tone, nationality, religion, or any number of other ways humans have shown intolerance toward one another. So it's hardly "too sensitive." I would find it objectionable if it were portrayed in a positive manner; on the other hand, portraying it in an ambiguous manner could be quite productive. If you are going to "explore" it, rather than merely present it, you'll need a certain amount of ambiguity: the bigots can't be entirely "bad" people, or else you're preaching, not illuminating one of the darker but nonetheless more commonplace aspects of the human condition.


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## Donny Bruso (Feb 20, 2011)

I would say that some of my characters are mildly racist. In Dark Crusade I created a continent that is part desert and part temperate climate, because well... It's fantasy, I can do whatever I want. ;P Anyway, the desert portion of the continent is populated by people who are based upon the nomadic peoples of the middle east. The rest of the 'races' in the story for lack of a better term, since they are all human, usually refer to them as 'sand eaters' or 'desert-roaming buggers'. I don't condone bigotry in any way, shape, or form, so personally that is about as far as I am comfortable going. To have my characters de-humanize these people simply because of the color of their skin, while certainly in line with some of their personalities, is repugnant to me, so those opinions of theirs can be held in private.


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## Greybeard (Feb 21, 2011)

Donny Bruso said:


> I don't condone bigotry in any way, shape, or form, so personally that is about as far as I am comfortable going. To have my characters de-humanize these people simply because of the color of their skin, while certainly in line with some of their personalities, is repugnant to me, so those opinions of theirs can be held in private.



Would a villain who is motivated by racism be crossing the line?


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## Legerdemain (Feb 21, 2011)

Greybeard said:


> Would a villain who is motivated by racism be crossing the line?


 
I would not think so, depending on his background.  All of the LotR characters were racist, with the belief that all orcs and goblins were born with original sin and must be culled.  Does that mean Tolkien was racist?  Honestly I think that he was trying to convey the opposite.  People should universally attack evil, hate, war, waste, destruction, and malice, and he used the evil races as a personification of all the evils we should fight in the world.  

Many villains are motivated by racism.  Think about the Smurfs.  Gargamel was completely racist. "I don't want to eat them, I don't want to turn them into gold, all I want now is to DESTROY THEM!"  He saw them as a tool to use to make profit, for consumption, and then just a target for his hate.  Racism is a strong motivation, and it's in a lot of fantasy works.

I think it's an interesting tool, but like all tools, should only be used by those old enough to understand the proper or improper uses.


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## Ravana (Feb 21, 2011)

Greybeard said:


> Would a villain who is motivated by racism be crossing the line?


 
Not at all. Even a hero who's motivated by racism wouldn't be crossing the line–as long as the reader is sympathizing with the hero in spite of the racism, rather than because of it. That's what I meant about needing to have some measure of ambiguity in the treatment of the issue. If there is none, your reader will probably wonder why you'd bother to depict it at all…  sort of like putting a black [note racist innuendo!  ] hat on someone to "show" he's a villain. Unless it plays an actual role in your story, I'd say skip it. 

Tolkien's characters were "racist" in far more subtle, and far more important, ways than simply all hating goblins. Consider the views elves and dwarves generally held about one another, or which humans held about either and vice versa. This doesn't mean that Tolkien was racist–if he was, which of these was supposed to be the one he "favored"?–only that he felt the tension generated because of the different views was important to his story. If he did not, they would have all gotten along swimmingly… and evil would have been far easier to overcome. The distrust and isolation created by the tensions between races was a major factor not only in the survival of "evil," but also of its plans–these tensions are actively promoted by agents of the evil powers in several places. Which meshes well with part of what Legerdemain says: racism is portrayed as a negative force. Importantly, though, while the evil races may personify (i.e. symbolize) all the world's evils, they do not _embody_ all the world's evils: "evil" can appear anywhere, not just in externally "obvious" places, it is nobody's exclusive province, and an evil is just as bad and just as damaging when held by "good" people as by anyone else.


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## Ravana (Feb 21, 2011)

For another good exhibit of what can be done with racism: Glen Cook's _Tower of Fear_ features a three-cornered social structure of mutual distrust that is a large factor in what drives the plot forward. And to keep things interesting, those aren't the only "corners" of the social edifice: they're just the ones that the general population recognizes, and as such mask what's really going on as often as they do provide the impetus for it.


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## Legerdemain (Feb 22, 2011)

I would like to bring up another point, if I will.  I like how Ravana points out the more grey area within race and usage in works, and I concur with her musings.  However, I thought of something under a separate but similar line of thinking.  Should slavery be portrayed in works among races, how should it be handled, and how can it be/not be systematically racist.  For example, I remember reading a story that included dwarf slaves, all of which were "black" in color, and I couldn't help that though the work was obviously against slavery, the author made all the slaves black... is that racist in itself? Though the author was saying it was bad, he/she still didn't make the slaves human, but instead the systematic "other" that racism has always created to portray prejudice.

Thoughts?


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## Donny Bruso (Feb 22, 2011)

I find that the best way to portray slavery in a non-racist manner is to make it very clear that the slavery isn't about race, it's about the fact that you were conquered in battle, or had to sell yourself into slavery to avoid something, or because you needed money, or even you were just laying there and got locked up, a la Gladiator. 

One of the best examples I've found of including slavery in a book without making it racial is in the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R R Martin. There are slaves of just about every race included in his descriptions of the slaves you come across in his books, and he even makes it clear at one point that certain races will even sell their own kind into slavery. It's not about race, it's about the fact that you lost the battle, or your parents needed money, or you were an unwanted child. Just about anything but race.


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## Seth (Feb 23, 2011)

This might be just me, and publishers around the world may well disagree, but I think sensitivity of topics related to racial issues of any kind is highly exaggerated. Talks about equality and tolerance etc are very popular nowadays, but expecting authors to treat all races as 'equals' in their world because of real world developments is pretty short-sighted. By that logic, writing about wars, religious conflicts, or heck, some simple villainous torture should be taboo as well?

Not saying that any fantasy world with more than one race in the story should always include racial oppression or anything - but in a medieval setting, I'd say NOT having any kind of racial bigotry is almost guaranteed to be bad storytelling.


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## Legerdemain (Feb 24, 2011)

Donny Bruso said:


> I find that the best way to portray slavery in a non-racist manner is to make it very clear that the slavery isn't about race, it's about the fact that you were conquered in battle, or had to sell yourself into slavery to avoid something, or because you needed money, or even you were just laying there and got locked up, a la Gladiator.


 
I think this is a very good point.  The Ancient Romans are not commonly criticized in Western civilization as their slavery was based on defeats militarily against a range of races, creeds, and cultures, even if slavery itself is seen universally as immoral.



Seth said:


> Not saying that any fantasy world with more than one race in the story should always include racial oppression or anything - but in a medieval setting, I'd say NOT having any kind of racial bigotry is almost guaranteed to be bad storytelling.



I do not think the problem is necessarily portraying the issue, but moreso avoiding the portrayal of the issue as directly related to current racial prejudice, or worse yet, making the heroes "white power" crazies or something of the sort.  Not that race has to play a role at all, in the sense that forced respect towards multiculturalism can be painful too. (If anyone has read my rant against Cho Chang from Harry Potter understands my frustration, as my Chinese friends would prefer another white character to a misrepresented random Asian girl.)


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## Ravana (Feb 25, 2011)

Legerdemain said:


> Should slavery be portrayed in works among races, how should it be handled, and how can it be/not be systematically racist.  For example, I remember reading a story that included dwarf slaves, all of which were "black" in color, and I couldn't help that though the work was obviously against slavery, the author made all the slaves black... is that racist in itself?



Slavery is a socioeconomic institution; there's no reason it has to be racially based, and in most cultures throughout most of history it wasn't. All a "slave" is is a person who is legally owned by another. In many societies, the primary source of slaves was through subjugation of other peoples… so they might be from a marginally different culture, but they might also simply be from the next tribe or city over. Also, in many societies, people would sell children they couldn't support, or even themselves, into bondage, in which case they almost certainly were from the same race, culture, etc. (Though this might happen more frequently to disadvantaged populations, should such exist.) Slavery was often a punishment for crimes, in which case it could again apply to anyone. Indentured servitude was a form of slavery used to work off debts. Serfdom—that is, being bound to the land one lived upon and worked—was in many societies the equivalent of slavery, and as such it continued right up to the 1920s in Russia (and, arguably, even beyond, albeit under different names).

Also important is that treatment of slaves varied widely in different times and places. We don't normally think of the "enlightened" classical Greeks as having slaves, but they did. So did the Roman Empire, and the Byzantine… and in all of these, slaves were often treated as valuable property, not as domesticated animals (or worse: no American slaveowner would treat his horse the same way some treated their slaves). Many times the slaves were regarded as full members of the household and trusted friends. The Code of Hammurabi, roughly 3700 years ago, provided specific legal protections for slaves, even if these were less than those provided for free citizens.

As for making all dwarves "black," and slaves, I'd say that was pretty obviously intended as a reference to historical practices. One wonders why the author did both—that is, why make the subject "race" both black and dwarf… seems redundant.

At any rate, there's no reason slavery needs to be race-based; neither is there any requirement that racism needs to be portrayed through slavery, as there are innumerable ways racism can manifest. Nor, for that matter, does prejudice need to be portrayed through racism: it can be based on class, religion, or any other difference real or perceived.


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## At Dusk I Reign (Mar 9, 2011)

Black Dragon said:


> The issue of race is, obviously, a very sensitive matter.  As an author, do you ever explore topics such as racism, bigotry and intolerance by using the fantasy races of your created world?
> 
> If so, do you find this to be constructive?  Or is this a topic that is simply too sensitive to explore in a fictional setting?


I tend to throw everything into my writing. Racism, sexism, theism, etc. What's the point of writing anything if you can't expound your views without fear of favour of censure? (and lest anyone construe anything from previous posts I'm quite left-wing by nature, though I don't always sound it.) I tend to view the blank page as a template upon which I can carve my wisdom, and boy do I carve. That no-one will ever read it is beside the point - the fight's the thing, and an imaginary victory over bigots is better than no victory at all. Possibly. There are those who will disagree, but as they don't buy me drinks they don't matter.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 9, 2011)

I don't focus too heavily on it, likely because any book that does makes me gag a bit (after writing your twentieth book report on To Kill a Mockingbird/Sarny/Nightjohn/The Secret Life of Bees/etc., the subject gets a bit tired), but there is some mention of it in my current project. Elves, faeries, dragons, and the Eldest are the only native creatures of this world, and while some subsets and crossbreeds exist, it is pretty much this alone. Until humans stop popping in from Earth. Mostly, the characters - protagonist and antagonists - are just interested in humans and Earth technology, but it is hinted at that there are many people who are disgusted by them, or look down upon them. They are called 'earwigs', partially to associate them with the bug and partially because they wear false ears to hide their status as Earthlings.


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## Mdnight Falling (Mar 9, 2011)

YES! Absolutely I have it all in my first novel >.< dragons against wolves!!!! well Dragonians against Gy'ru LOL they hate each other almost more then vampires hate were wolves LMAO. Yet one of my main chars is the product of both sides.. which causes an even bigger conflict in that area because well yeah.... At some point I'll just have to let you guys read some of it.. Whenever I can find a prog to make textmaker files word files >.<


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## Falunel (Mar 10, 2011)

As much as people would deny it, bigotry- whether it be between races, countries, religions, or classes- was and still is a driving force in the world. Therefore, I don't see a reason to tiptoe around the subject. But like others have said, I don't see a reason to engrave it on the base of an anvil and drop it on a reader's head, either. It's most effective when not overblown, and can add a new dimension if used properly and explored from different viewpoints.


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## Mdnight Falling (Mar 10, 2011)

I completely agree.... I'd have to go back through my notes.. Lord knows I wrote the Exodus portion of my novel forever ago. but there was a reason the dragons started hating the wolves.. but it wasn't a true fact  It was trickery that started the whole conflict between the two main species on the continent


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## At Dusk I Reign (May 5, 2011)

I've always found it odd how the main character in a fantasy novel will usually have led a fairly insular life up to when the story starts yet accepts any new race he meets with aplomb. I imagine most people would find centaurs quite intimidating: if a character's anything like his real-world counterparts he'd probably fear them for being so incredibly _other._ While Frodo might've dreamt of meeting elves, there are probably many more heroes who'd either view them with suspicion or treat them with outright hostility.


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## Neunzehn (May 5, 2011)

Well, you could go too far in two direction, by making a story "colorblind" or by blowing it up obnoxiously. 

Most people harbor "racist" sentiments unless they spend a lot of time around other ethnos. It's the general taboo against bigotry in a culture that keeps a lot of people from expressing it, or bypassing it, that makes the difference. Basically if it makes them look bad, they'll repress it. I know of course that in fantasy the differences species and circumstances make a for a very big difference though...

For the record I don't think it makes any sense to give an underground race dark skin. I mean anything that lives far underwater or underground is usually lacking pigment. The same goes for people who live in cold/rainy climates.


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## sashamerideth (May 6, 2011)

Bigotry will play a big part in my story, primarily religious and a form of technological bigotry later on.  I don't have multiple intelligent species, all humans... still in first draft.


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## Neunzehn (May 6, 2011)

I don't read science fiction very often but that seems like a unique idea. As long as it doesn't look too much like a historical event from real life (think the black dwarfs), it won't be obnoxious, just interesting.

Edit: In my opinion.


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## sashamerideth (May 7, 2011)

Neunzehn said:
			
		

> I don't read science fiction very often but that seems like a unique idea. As long as it doesn't look too much like a historical event from real life (think the black dwarfs), it won't be obnoxious, just interesting.
> 
> Edit: In my opinion.




I am trying to figure out how to write bigotry, I am a pretty tolerant person and don't know how to think that way... it is kinda tough for me.


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## Fnord (May 9, 2011)

sashamerideth said:


> I am trying to figure out how to write bigotry, I am a pretty tolerant person and don't know how to think that way... it is kinda tough for me.



I guess a little immersion could probably help with that.  Obvious examples would be books or movies that feature it pretty prominently and we have a pretty strong history of it in the U.S.  _Uncle Tom's Cabin_ by Harriet Beecher Stowe and _Things Fall Apart_ by Chinua Achebe can put you in the minds of people who perform seemingly senseless acts behind the perception of thinking they are actually doing the right thing because of the belief that one race or group is inherently inferior to another. Movies like "Rosewood", "I Time to Kill", "Higher Learning" and "Mississippi Burning" are all movies that explore the topic of bigotry and race.  Sometimes getting into the minds of people who hold those beliefs, while unpleasant, can illuminate their motivations.  

These are all obviously extreme examples and if your particular use for bigotry in fantasy writing isn't quite so extreme, these might seem like overkill, but I still think they can be useful in giving insight behind the motivations.


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## sashamerideth (May 9, 2011)

Thanks for that, will get them out of the library and read through them.


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## JBryden88 (May 9, 2011)

IMO, fantasy, where you have many races, or many cultures, is not complete without bigotry. Same with Sci-Fi. The point of a story is to connect you with the world, and unfortunately, it's a very real element in our world. Thus, unfortunately, bigotry is one of many ways to connect you to a fantasy world.

IMO, it doesn't just have to be for stupid reasons like "your skin is dark" like we have. It can be for various reasons.

Perfect example: in my world, there's a mysterious people who are divided into five tribes that each represent a totem animal. The Bear and Wolf tribes HATE each other, will discriminate against each other, and will kill each other, based on their totem alone. 

Or on the mostly human side. One group of humans, the Lochinions, hate the big Broan Empire, because the Empire is arrogant, and at one time conquered them until most unconquered nations surrounded them and forced them out. So they have a hatred based on past wrongs. Which descends into outright pettiness between individuals. 

There's all sorts of reasons why characters might end up as bigoted individuals.


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## Fnord (May 9, 2011)

JBryden88 said:


> IMO, it doesn't just have to be for stupid reasons like "your skin is dark" like we have. It can be for various reasons.


 
I think this is super important.  When you really think about it, "skin color discrimination" is really just an easy way out in our world anyway.  Even if everyone in the world was the same color, we definitely have plenty of other instances where discrimination and prejudices against groups of people based on _some_ characteristic hold sway. And history backs that up; skin color is just an easy form of differentiation.  We've discriminated against people in our world based on things like Irish or Italian ancestry, tribal allegiances (such as in Rwanda, for example), social class, and certainly religious differences. Though I used the American history of racial bigotry because it's something we still see everyday, there are plenty of other things we hate and kill each other over. In your world it could be beards and pointy ears.  Or eye or hair color.  Or even otherwise ridiculous taboos based on long forgotten feuds or customs.  Don't forget, even left-handedness was considered "sinister" (the origin of the term) in the not-so-distant past.


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## Waltershores (May 10, 2011)

In my current venture the antagonist was created from racial inequality and holds quite the grudge.  I find racism quite interesting in the real world, so why not touch on it in the fantasy world.


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## Hans (May 19, 2011)

As I've said somewhere else, I am more a worldbuilder than a writer. And of course I have racism in my world. Folks which doesn't travel much and thus doesn't see much different builds up strange stories about the unknown. Moreso if this unknown looks different or has strange habits or speaks funny. Sometimes propaganda plays into this when there is a war or any reason to build up a "us versus them" attitude. A nice story could have one or more characters with strong prejudices and see these broken.

For the topic of slavery on earth, it is not completely right to say it was free of the race or other "we group" issues. Different eras of the roman empire did not allow for romans to become slaves.
Traders in the sumerian city states were sometimes obligated by law, when they come upon a slave born in their hometown to buy him into freedom. Different city laws granted support if the trader could not afford that.
Slavery in europe ended shortly before medieval times because a christian was not allowd to own christian slaves. So a medieval setting with slavery is not possible because all former slaves had converted by that time. Villeinage or serfdom is not the same as slavery.


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## kolchak (May 20, 2011)

This is almost exclusively what I use fantasy environments for. I have a lot of opinions on race and race relations, and I find it a lot easier (and a lot more satisfying) to explore them removed from our world. It makes it a little easier for people to accept certain truths that they are conditioned to otherwise immediately reject: western civilization being a negative aggressor, for one. Dress up European culture as elves or dwarves and suddenly nobody is making excuses for when they wipe out entire continents of people to set up their cities.


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## Derin (May 22, 2011)

I don't deliberately focus on racism, but it tends to crop up in any setting. In my current world, for instance, the country in which the story is set is on land that used to belong to dwarves before humans conquered it. Humans took alol the farmland but couldn't match dwarves in the mountains; now, the relations between the mountain-dwelling dwarves and flatland humans are very, very tense. Any wandering on the other's land would probably find themself lynched. But none of this was deliberate, or intended to be a parallel for anything on Earth. It's just how people are.


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## Smaug (May 23, 2011)

Seth said:


> in a medieval setting, I'd say NOT having any kind of racial bigotry is almost guaranteed to be bad storytelling.


 
I would agree with this: many authors use racism as a way to signpost an 'evil' character, but a simplistic view of racism in your fantasy world could make it difficult to create a sense of realism. 

Also, in the real world, prejudice is often hard to detect and can be built into some people's ideas of national identity. Far-right parties here in England use this to mask extreme views on race.

For example, the Imperium of Man in the Warhammer 40K universe is not one of the 'evil' factions, but it is fanatically racist against aliens and mutants. I enjoy it when authors don't give us an easy ride, and build flaws into 'hero' characters. As a product of their own cultures, should we blame them for holding potentially racist views? Where do we draw the line, after which we can no longer sympathise with them? It helps get away from the classic but unrealistic Paragon-type heroes.

My current project is based around Ancient Greece, where even the most democratic and free city states owned slaves. But to remove slaves all together would damage the Classical flavour I'm trying to create (and also a potentially interesting question to explore in the book)


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## Amanita (May 23, 2011)

I've wanted to write an answer to this for a long time, now might be the time to do so.
Does a realistic fantasy world have to have racism? 
If this is supposed to mean problems similar to those that existed between whites and blacks in the USA, my answer is no. There is no need to import people from another part of the worlds as slaves and there is no need to have them need to deal with the consequences of this in later times. 
And I also don't understand people claiming that in a fantasy world with people of different skin colour these have to interact exactly the same way they do in our own world or the author is "colour-blind" or anything of the sort. (I've heard this argument, though not here.)
If the question is supposed to mean different groups of people or nations hating each other, the answer is yes. It's very likely, that something like this exists somewhere in every fantasy world and if it doesn't, there should be a good reason for it. These can be countries who've been enemies for ages, different religious groups, different magical groups or indeed the arrogance of a technologically more higher developed nation against others that aren't, a tribe of people that only considers tribe members human and not others and so on. 
They're can be extreme power differences that result in slavery, which results in a lot of baggage for various groups involved as well of course. 

In my own story, there are lot's of different kinds. Many people in my most powerful nation, Arunien, believe that it's their duty to teach the rest of the world how to run a state and how to use magic in a civilised way and they think that everyone should adopt their ways. 
And clash with the Sarilians who think completely differently about those issues. The Sarilians are racist in the way that keeping their blood pure is very important to them and many of them feel extreme racism against their neighbours, the Elonians. There's actually been a genocidal war against an Elonian minority within their country about twenty years before the story starts. It was stopped by the Arunians, some of whom believe that the Sarilians will never reach a civilsed state and need to be ruled by others or even exterminated. 

There's more but I don't want to ramble away.  
Another interesting aspect of fantasy racism is the fact, that Orcs (or similar beings) often serve to avoid the "racism trap" during war. In wars, people often believe that the other side consists only of cruel, inhuman monsters who can be killed without a second thought. Orcs actually are such cruel inhuman monsters and can be killed without regret.
Tolkien actually has a relatively strict racial hierarchy where everyone is supposed to stay in their place and do their part there.


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## Donny Bruso (May 24, 2011)

Amanita said:


> ...Many people in my most powerful nation, Arunien, believe that it's their duty to teach the rest of the world how to run a state...they think that everyone should adopt their ways.


 
Sounds like the United States, lol.

But you make a good point. Dislike of a people doesn't have to be based on a person's skin color or accent or nose type. It can simply be that you hate their country's attitude towards well... everything. Human nature is that we want someone to blame, so we blame the people of the country who, realistically, have little to no control over what their government decides to inflict on the rest of the world.


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## SeverinR (May 31, 2011)

Racism is a common theme in real life and can be used in fantasy.

I started a book with a half elf woman, that gets caught in a siege by orcs, in a town full of various human bigots.
All town occupants prefer to live with humans, and some are openly hostile to other races.

Orcs-elves have a traditional hatred between each other, so if the townspeople cast her out she will die a terrible death, and for some in this town, that is not a problem.

(I haven't worked on that story for a while, I have alot....alot of stories in the works. 12- 15 in various stages.)

Racism is the basic emotion of "us" vs "them", "we" are better then "them", "we" would be great if "we" didn't have "them" around us.


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