# Elves vs humans



## NerdyCavegirl (Nov 21, 2015)

In stories where both elves and humans are major players, what advantages do humans typically have over elves, if any? Or are elves almost always superior? How exactly would humans still be around alongside a supposedly superior species that fills essentially the same niche, rather than dying out like our Neanderthal ancestors?


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## Ireth (Nov 21, 2015)

I think humans' main advantage over elves is adaptability to change. Elves, as an immortal (or at least very long-lived) race, respond to time differently and often seem to be "left behind" as things change; this is why beings like the Fair Folk are typically seen as being in a sort of medieval stasis while humans on Earth advance to modernity. (Exceptions to the rule are stories like the Bordertown ones, in which there is a fair bit of mingling between magic and technology.)


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## Tom (Nov 21, 2015)

Humans are usually portrayed as having sturdier frames than elves, so they (or is that "we"?) have a natural advantage in the area of physical endurance. Elves are usually wispy and slim, a build that puts them at a distinct disadvantage in colder, harsher environments. Sturdier frames, more body hair, and a layer of body fat that elves seem to lack make us better adapted to northern environments. Unless the elves' abilities are enhanced by magic, humans also have the advantage in strength and endurance; we're built for persistence hunting, a tactic that involves stalking an animal over long distances until it is literally too exhausted to go any further. 

On another note, the Neanderthals didn't exactly die out. They interbred with the emerging _homo sapiens sapiens_, passing on their DNA and some of their genetic characteristics. Many modern humans have Neanderthal DNA, Northern Europeans having the highest concentration. Can we say the Neanderthals are truly dead if modern humans today (including me) still carry some of their genetic material? What if we apply the same thing to elves and humans? If, in a fantasy world where elves fill the same evolutionary niche as humans, humans interbreed with elves, the human race will never truly die out.


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## Velka (Nov 21, 2015)

Humans can also have a social advantage over elves. As a whole, humans travel and trade much more prolifically which makes them more 'welcome' and spread out. Elves, on the other hand are generally more reclusive and less likely to interact with the world around them, which can breed suspicion and negative bias. 

This ties into Ireth's observation that while humans innovate, elves generally do not, mostly because they are not exposed to anything 'new'. Humans may not be as wise, or have the same innate gifts as elves, but their disposition to explore, conquer, assimilate, and invent prevent them from being a footnote in evolutionary history.


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## Tom (Nov 21, 2015)

Lol, as usual everyone else goes for the social/psychological stuff, and I delve straight into the science-y side of things. Very typical.


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## Velka (Nov 21, 2015)

> Lol, as usual everyone else goes for the social/psychological stuff, and I delve straight into the science-y side of things. Very typical.



I think it provides a very nice balance!


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## Deleted member 4265 (Nov 21, 2015)

I think it really depends on what kind of elves and what kind of humans we're talking about because writers have a great deal of flexibility when it comes to both.

Like Ireth said, usually its because elves aren't nearly as adaptable as humans, but there are other possibilities. Maybe even though elves live longer they have a much higher infant mortality rate or its harder for them to conceive so there's just less of them compared to humans. Maybe if there's magic in the world, humans are more adept at it than elves. Maybe elves are extremely susceptible to human diseases. There are a lot of possibilities.


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## valiant12 (Nov 21, 2015)

> How exactly would humans still be around alongside a supposedly superior species that fills essentially the same niche, rather than dying out like our Neanderthal ancestors?



It's actually very simple. Elves can never outcompete humans when they are forced to live in a world created by a human and governed by human logik.

also humans are (like pigs) - smart, omnivore , can produce many babies, apex predator can eat us , suffer from flu and similar viruses

elves are (like cats with realy low fertility )  - lazy, and arogant, picky eaters , cute but not really smart, have incredible almost supernatural senses , not very disciplined. lack stamina

Being able to survive on different kinds of foods and producing a lot of children is a great advantage.


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## Ban (Nov 21, 2015)

I don't know if it has been said before, but Tolkien believed humans to have an advantage because they are mortal. Elves live long, loooooong lives and have little reason to bring about change. They grow into patterns and get used to the way things are. Humans on the other hand have only a few decennia to live. If humans wish for change, be it for the world or for themselves, then they must go out and get it now or else they won't get to see the results.


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## Ban (Nov 21, 2015)

valiant12 said:


> It's actually very simple. Elves can never outcompete humans when they are forced to live in a world created by a human and governed by human logik.
> 
> also humans are (like pigs) - smart, omnivore , can produce many babies, apex predator can eat us , suffer from flu and similar viruses
> 
> ...



What elves are depends on the writer valiant. I am pretty sure there are a lot of writers who don't portray their elves a lazy, dumb and lacking stamina. I'm just saying that. Because you state these things as if they are fact. Elves are still fictional


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## Mythopoet (Nov 21, 2015)

One of the major concrete advantages I've seen is humans in possession of iron. For instance, in Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword on of the protagonists is a human child brought to live among the Elves and he is one of their greatest warriors because unlike the Elves and other creatures of Faerie, he can wield iron.


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## WooHooMan (Nov 21, 2015)

Devouring Wolf said:


> I think it really depends on what kind of elves and what kind of humans we're talking about because writers have a great deal of flexibility when it comes to both.



This thread could end with this post.
Unless, we're supposed to think that NerdyCavegirl is intentionally going for a totally straight, no surprises take on these races.  And if being on this forum has taught me anything, it's that fantasy writers can't resist putting their own spin on familiar concepts.

So, to answer the question, if this is a totally vanilla Dungeon and Dragons setting, I'd say that humanity's advantage is population size and diversity.  
When elves are divided, you usually get a handful of very different subraces (high elf, dark elf, wood elf) which are all very centralized and uniform.  You get one high elf nation, one dark elf nation and a so forth that are usually in the same general area.
But when humans are divided, you get many different ethnicities and cultures spread out of a very large population which is spread out over a very large mass of land.  Not only that but they tend to compete with each other which spurs technical and social advancements as well as military conquests.


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## NerdyCavegirl (Nov 21, 2015)

My elves have iron. At least some so. There are 3 major hominid races, humans, elves, and firekin, and each race has at least one large nation and/or tribe with medieval/renaissance level technology, along with a generally equal number of smaller less-advanced communities. Humans are 45% of the population, elves 30%, and firekin 25%. I've already decided that the firekin are the smallest, frailest, physically weakest race because their pyrokinesis burns a ridiculous number of calories. They have very large efficient kidneys for their body size and can go for quite awhile without water, but they have to consume at least 5000 calories a day and die within a week without food. I just wasn't entirely sure how my elves and humans would fit in. Their magical capabilities are pretty much the same, and very common in the population at that, so I think I'll definitely make humans the bigger sturdier race and the elves a good in-between.


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## psychotick (Nov 22, 2015)

Hi,

I usually place my elves in more forest like environments where their innate skills in bushcraft, hunting, walking softly and the longbow give them a major advantage. Their maagic is useful too. Humans by contrast are more numerous, adaptable to multiple environments, can formed organised armies, may have technology and can build fortifications. They often live in farmlands where they can raise food and start towns.

Also I have several times used a three race scenario - elves, dwarves and humans. The elves and the dwarves are natural enemies, because the dwarves cut down trees etc. And the humans, who may or may not be the offspring of marriages of elves and dwarves, are generally rejected by both groups, so live in neither the forests nor the mountains, but instead dominate the borderlands between the elves and the dwarves.

As a sort of mixed heritage people the humans get a little of everything. The height and stamina of the elves, the stocky frames and strength of the dwarves. The elves' magic and the dwarves' technology. They become like a jack of all trades, never likely to be as powerful in their magic as the elves, nor as rampantly technological as the dwarves, but still able to become competent in both, giving them an edge. They are the generalists I suppose.

Cheers, Greg.


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