# When do fantasy humans cease to be human?



## Tom (Jun 30, 2015)

I've been wondering about this lately. I've noticed how we like to take baseline humans and modify their magical capabilities and physical and psychological characteristics to suit our stories and worlds. I do this too--for example, one of my ethnic groups has invariably dead-white skin, and either jet-black, bright red, or white-blond hair. Due to genetics, such an extreme ethnic phenotype is impossible in our world, but I still consider those people human. 

How much can we as writers tweak the human race in our worlds before they cease to be human and become a human-like race? Where lies the boundary between what we consider "human" and "not human"? Can we fantasy writers step over that boundary, yet still consider our characters human?


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## Russ (Jun 30, 2015)

That is a huge question.

From a scientific perspective I think the answer would be something like "when they can no longer interbreed with  humans."

But to answer the question in any other realm requires entering into an analysis of what it means to be human, which is quite a task.

Perhaps they stop being human when they are so functionally different from us that we cannot effectively  understand or empathize with them as we can with other members of our species.


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## evolution_rex (Jun 30, 2015)

Well, if you want to get technical, how could be be certain that any human in high fantasy is actually human? We don't know their DNA so we can't compare them, we don't know their evolutionary history. What if they evolved differently but still have the same DNA, does that make them human? There a ton of philosophical questions that come with that. But the point is, there are a tons of technicalities with what is considered human and you shouldn't get hung up on it.

Personally, I'd just call them a fictional race of humans, if you do go super crazy then you might as well just make them a fictional species. But that would require something like adding horns, scales, fur, etc.


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## Tom (Jun 30, 2015)

That raises another question: Do we consider fantasy half-breeds human? For instance, my MC is half-human, half-Fey, yet I as well as other characters in the story consider him human. Originally, I had him at three-quarters Fey, yet I still saw him as human. Do we base the human-ness of hybrids on their upbringing? Would I consider my MC non-human if he'd been raised by the Fey? Or is it based on psychology? Would we still consider a character human if they had a human mind, but resembled a humanoid dragon or other monstrous race?

I guess this whole discussion boils down to the age-old question--what does it mean to be human?


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## Gurkhal (Jun 30, 2015)

I'd say that when they stop to behave in the same patterns as ourselves, they stop being humans as become something else.


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## Trick (Jun 30, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> I guess this whole discussion boils down to the age-old question--what does it mean to be human?



It does. But, I think for the specific application of writing fantasy it has to do with reader experience. Can the reader identify with the character? If so, they are human on some level. And, since they were created and written by a human, that makes sense. I don't think it's possible to write an entirely alien/non-human character. Show me an example and I'll either find that they are somehow like humans or they are not actually a "character."


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## Russ (Jun 30, 2015)

There are so many ways to answer the question what is a human.

It is a legal question, a scientific question, a cultural question, a religious question and I suspect more. 

The answer to each can be different.

Personally, in the real world I completely reject the concept of race.  But that is me.

To start the discussion I think you need a definition of human.


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## Tom (Jun 30, 2015)

I don't believe there are races either. We're all one race--the human race. 

To define humanity is a difficult task. To think, to create, to laugh, to weep, to dream, to explore--those actions are what I think of when I think of humanity. I've always believed that it's our minds and emotions that make us who we are.


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## psychotick (Jun 30, 2015)

Hi,

Like the others have said, you can't define what is not human until you have first answered the question what is human. The former depends entirely on the latter. So your albino race is human if you define human as containing or at least not not containing people with this phenotype.

Really I'd say, go back and think about what it is that you think is important about being human. What are the characteristics that are key. Then decide.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Mindfire (Jun 30, 2015)

Russ said:


> Perhaps they stop being human when they are so functionally different from us that we cannot effectively  understand or empathize with them as we can with other members of our species.



The problem with this definition is that, when consistently applied, it makes elves, dwarves, and a whole bunch of fantasy races effectively human. It may not be precise or narrow enough to be useful.


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## Tom (Jun 30, 2015)

In terms of my worldbuilding, I've always thought of dwarves and elves as offshoots of the human race, either brought about by magical means, or by simple evolution. Often they share enough characteristics with humanity to be considered part of it, in by book.


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## Mindfire (Jun 30, 2015)

That's another thing. You also have to take into account the origins of humanity and the metaphysics and cosmology of your universe. For example, if humans are created beings with souls, then knowing whether someone/something is human or not may be a simple matter of determining whether they have a soul. But if your universe is more naturalistic, things get considerably murkier.


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## Ankari (Jun 30, 2015)

This is a great question.

While going through my worldbuilding phase, I created a diversity of races. Someone (I shared the drawings online) commented "why are all of your races so human-like?" I tried to make my races are different from what is physically accepted as human as possible. This commenter suggested that a human is defined by sharing similar physical traits of "humans." Two legs, arms, eyes, ears, etc. With a female and male gender.

All of my races can interbreed. Does that make them human? One race uses photosynthesis, another generates light, another has horns that can emit sonar, and yet another can create a body armor from minerals they ingest from the earth (I have others. Generic "humans", something akin to elves, and a couple others). I tried to be as diverse with my attributes as possible, yet they're still considered "too human-like."

Inversely, I find that many of the "humans" in high fantasy do not act human. They are too "pure" in motive, too innocent morally. I find their personalities flat, inhuman.

I define "human" by the range of emotions, motives, thoughts and moral shading as typically found in a "real human." So, yes, my races are all "human", even if they are physically different.


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## Addison (Jun 30, 2015)

I, personally, think that the line is up to you and how YOU define humans. If you define humans based on appearance, two arms, two legs, normal ears, eyes can only be these colors etc, then the line is crossed the second you give them feathers for hair or pink eyes. 

Or it could be by characteristics. Some people define humans differently based on how they think a true human behaves. 
Personally I start with an actual human character and, as they change through the story, I watch to see if they're growing as a person and if they may be leaning also toward crossing that fantasy-race line.


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## Tom (Jun 30, 2015)

Very eloquent, Ankari, and almost exactly what I think on the matter!


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## Feo Takahari (Jun 30, 2015)

I like to approach it from an in-universe perspective. A couple of my settings have races that I, personally, would have to define as human if you asked me. Some characters who are members of those races call themselves human, too. But the dominant "humans" of those settings consider those races to be "monsters" or "outsiders," so they're basically nonhuman as far as that setting is concerned. (They still _act_ like humans, of course, but you could say the same for most of my characters.)


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## Tom (Jul 1, 2015)

I consider my Fey human, since they're a magically mutated offshoot of humanity. They think and feel as humans do, and are motivated by the same things--love, hatred, fear, jealousy, etc. 

Yet the human peoples consider Fey monsters, and reject them. Just recently I realized that the Fey were just another people like all the rest. I had been thinking through the lens of my human MC and his culture, seeing them as inhuman monsters as he does. Now I recognize their innate humanity. I've also realized that the human peoples have ostracized the Fey because they see themselves reflected in them, and fear their own flawed natures.  

Hopefully this new understanding will show in my finished work. 


(It had better, since I've spent half a decade or more coming to that conclusion!)


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 1, 2015)

You know, I don't really write humanoids who aren't "real" humans, so I'm probably very alone in this, but the way I'd view elves and humans  (because I do have elves and dwarves) cohabitating a world is probably how our own Earth history saw an overlap between Homo Sapiens and Neandarthals.  They can interbreed, they have similar characteristics, but they're different.  In fact, just thinking about this might prompt me to do some more brainstorming.  

See in my world, I have loads of humans, but some have special characteristics that make them different, but not different enough to give them a new species identifier.  Mages, for example, are regular humans, but they have a natural talent for magic.  Do they have different DNA?  Maybe as much as musical families or whatever have some natural traits they're passing down.  I mean, comparing humans to horses, not all horses are racing material, just like not all humans are destined to be mages, but like all horses can run, so could all people probably learn some small amount of magic.  My high-talent mages are less like horses and more like unicorns, I'd have to imagine.  Something went weird, and they pass it down.


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## Snowpoint (Jul 1, 2015)

None of my current settings are filled with non-human races. When you strip all the scales and pointy ears, they are all just humans.


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## Miskatonic (Jul 1, 2015)

When they are capable of doing things that humans in our reality cannot? 

Unless of course you chalk this up to some continued type of evolution, but even then it's still in a sci-fi/fantasy context.


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## Mindfire (Jul 1, 2015)

Ankari said:


> Inversely, I find that many of the "humans" in high fantasy do not act human. They are too "pure" in motive, too innocent morally. I find their personalities flat, inhuman.
> 
> I define "human" by the range of emotions, motives, thoughts and moral shading as typically found in a "real human." So, yes, my races are all "human", even if they are physically different.



If you consider a pure-hearted person "inhuman", I'm not sure what to say except that you must be incredibly cynical.


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## Devor (Jul 1, 2015)

So, I was going to answer that they're human until you change something that changes the human experience, like elves living super long.  But then there are plenty of stories where some humans live a long time.  So I thought, they're human until you change their psyche, like how elves are normally aloof. But lots of stories have elves that behave pretty human.  So I figure, they're human until you change their appearance, like how elves have pointy ears, but obviously, the humans in the OP have pasty white skin.  I thought about Russ's comment, where the two can interbreed, but there are a good many half elves as well.

I can only conclude one thing.  Elves are human.

I'm not sure how serious that statement is supposed to be.

More seriously, I think it's about your story's themes and messages. Making them human has a different kind of feel and makes a different kind of point about society and human nature than making them a different fantasy race.  I think that's all it's about.


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## Mythopoet (Jul 1, 2015)

Devor said:


> I can only conclude one thing.  Elves are human.



Most Elves written in the past century are essentially human, with a few superficial differences. Tolkien's Elves, however, are different in nature from his humans. He explains how in some of his writings that you can read in the History of Middle-earth series. He explains that both humans and Elves are composed of a _fea_ and a _hroa_, a spirit and a body. What differs between them is the relationship between the _fea_ and the _hroa_. In a human, both are essentially equal. But in an Elf, the _fea_ is much, much stronger than the _hroa_. Thus Elves are more spiritual than humans and the strength of their _fea_ is the source of their "magic", their _fea_ can manipulate physical things in a way that the _fea_ of humans can't. It is also the source of their long life, the strength of the _fea_ keeps the _hroa_ from weakening over time and makes the _hroa_ much more resistant to natural physical ills. 

This is the kind of thought that Tolkien put into his races that makes his worldbuilding so superior to most worldbuilding done since. He defined both the nature of the humans and the Elves and thus he was able to make them feel like truly distinct races.


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## Tom (Jul 1, 2015)

As always, Tolkien leaves everyone else in the dust. The man was amazing--I wish I could have met him.


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## Devor (Jul 1, 2015)

Mythopoet said:


> Most Elves written in the past century are essentially human, with a few superficial differences. Tolkien's Elves, however, are different in nature from his humans. He explains how in some of his writings that you can read in the History of Middle-earth series. He explains that both humans and Elves are composed of a _fea_ and a _hroa_, a spirit and a body. What differs between them is the relationship between the _fea_ and the _hroa_. In a human, both are essentially equal. But in an Elf, the _fea_ is much, much stronger than the _hroa_. Thus Elves are more spiritual than humans and the strength of their _fea_ is the source of their "magic", their _fea_ can manipulate physical things in a way that the _fea_ of humans can't. It is also the source of their long life, the strength of the _fea_ keeps the _hroa_ from weakening over time and makes the _hroa_ much more resistant to natural physical ills.



Huh.

That makes me wonder how the other races fit into this scheme.  Would that make dwarves the opposite?  Weaker _fea_, stronger _hroa_​?  Because that would . . . . huh.


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## Mindfire (Jul 1, 2015)

Devor said:


> Huh.
> 
> That makes me wonder how the other races fit into this scheme.  Would that make dwarves the opposite?  Weaker _fea_, stronger _hroa_​?  Because that would . . . . huh.



Probably. Remember that Dwarves weren't originally part of the plan for Arda. They were made by Aule when he got impatient and decided to make friends for himself since Eru was taking so long. Consequently the Dwarves didn't even have fea until Eru "adopted" them.


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## Sheilawisz (Jul 1, 2015)

The answer to this question is pretty simple, at least to me:

First, you have to imagine a scenario in which one of your Fantasy characters is taken to visit our world by means of a magical portal or something like that. Once they are here, the question is... Would they be able to breed with us, and produce a biologically functional creature as a result?

If the answer is _Yes_, then yeah: They are human, at least up to certain point.

You see, this is similar to what happens when tigers and lions breed to produce Ligers. Some creepy scientists tried to do the same between humans and various species of great apes, but it never worked because we are truly different species despite all being primates.

In the other hand, it's believed that breeding between the Neanderthal and modern humans was successful, because they were human too, though not exactly like us.

Then, if the answer to my question is _No_ then definitely they are a different _species_ and that's all. Trying to define _being human_ as a condition related to behavior, functionality and emotions is irrelevant.


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 1, 2015)

Modern humans mostly all have Neanderthal DNA.  Some populations (not sure about in Africa, since Neanderthals must have originated there as early hominids all came out of Africa at some point in the migration period)) as little as 2% (in Asia, where Neanderthals didn't really roam), and up to 8% in Central and Eastern Europe, where Neanderthals lived the longest, side by side with Homo Sapiens.  8% that's a HUGE number when you consider the thousands of years that Neanderthals haven't been around.  It also shows that Neanderthals may have died out, but their traits were important enough to pass on, because they mingled with the other humans for an extended period of time.  

I mean, in a fantasy world, is it conceivable that humans are 8% elvish?  If you showed a Homo Sapien and a Neanderthal side by side, there'd be obvious differences, not unlike the differences between elves and humans, but the fact that there aren't varying degrees of elven ancestry is perhaps then the most unrealistic element in fantasy worlds.

I'd imagine that pockets of Neanderthals lived for longer as their own clans, but because their world changed (climate, prey, competition), most didn't survive for thousands of years as their own separate species, but that natural selection allowed those with the strongest traits to survive alongside their competitors and because Homo Sapiens were probably different looking back then too, the evolution of the combined species took many turns over the last 20k years.


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## X Equestris (Jul 1, 2015)

Africans who have no non-African ancestors in their family tree don't have any Neanderthal DNA, or at least not enough to be really measurable.  

As far as humans and elves being like humans and Neanderthals, I suppose it's certainly possible, though it's really a question of world building.  Some settings have them different on a spiritual/metaphysical level, and others may be incompatible biologically.

Still, I think that would be something interesting to experiment with.  Interbreeding would definitely happen if it were at all possible.  Having both be alive at the same time might be a problem though.  I mean, humans have fought vicious wars over relatively minor differences, such as race, ethnicity, religion, political ideology, etc.  I doubt encounters with a group that had much larger differences with us would go very well.  I could easily see genocidal wars between humans and elves happening.


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## Ophiucha (Jul 1, 2015)

Humans cease to be humans when you tell the reader that they are something else. At least, that's the whishy-washy answer. The real answer is probably 'when your readers cease to see them as humans', and there really is no definite answer to that. It's subjective.

Do your readers views mortality as a fundamental trait of humanity? Then elves or vampires can't be human. Do they view a soul as the defining feature? Then if your world gives dragons and sphinxes souls, are they not human in some way? For some people, it's 'two eyes, two feet, two arms, etc..' and that includes elves and dwarves but maybe not mermaids. If in real life you would define a Neanderthal or a Homo erectus as a human, perhaps you'd also more readily call dwarves and elves the same. And perhaps the sort of racists who see people of other cultures as something less than 'human' could never accept faeries or mermaids or dwarves as 'human' either. It really just depends on the reader's point of view.


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## skip.knox (Jul 1, 2015)

I sort of dodge the question. In Altearth I talk (more correctly, the characters talk) about "people". Elves, dwarves, pixies, gnomes, humans, all are people. I would like to call them different nations, using the original sense of the word, but the word has become synonymous with nation-state, alas. I resist calling them races. I pretty much dance around the distinction, though I suppose different races would be the best modern term.

This is distinguished from the Wild, which includes what would be called monsters in the D&D world. All peoples regard bears, goblins, trolls, wolves, and the like as creatures, not as people.

Then there are borderline cases, most notably orcs. These have a civilization but are deeply hostile to all Free Folk. Some say they are creatures, some say they are people (just very bad people), and some say they are their own thing, _sui generis_. Merfolk, who are generally benign to indifferent, are likewise a borderline case.

I find it more interesting not to draw clear lines. In any case, what counts is what my characters think, not some external definition. It's entirely possible, therefore, to have one people regard some other nation (race--see the problem?) as not being people, even as others do.  Example, gnomes might say pixies are not people, although humans say they are. 

The consequences of this might be that gnomes think it's okay to hunt pixies. Or that pixies have no legal rights. No contract is binding, no treaty is valid. That sort of thing.

I mostly do not have the various peoples interbreed. Too danged complicated. But I leave room for some fuzziness here and there, in case I want to use it in a story.


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## Ankari (Jul 2, 2015)

Mindfire said:


> If you consider a pure-hearted person "inhuman", I'm not sure what to say except that you must be incredibly cynical.



Our definitions of "pure heart" may vary. A pure heart has every (human) desire in check. He won't act outside the established ethical moral code (and this is even a gray area) he adheres to, ever. He will act selflessly for the greater good (as defined by his moral code), will accept death to oppose oppression, will speak out against a wrong, will speak truth at all times, will defend the weak, will give to the less fortunate consistently, will judge rigidly along his moral code, even against his loved ones, and so on.

I have yet to see a human act in such a fashion. There are some who you would say do fit this criteria, but they would be religious figures of long ago. Even current, or near current religious figures wouldn't live up to this.

Humans are never a stark white or black. They are many shades of gray (damn it!), some so dark to appear black, and some so bright to appear white. Even in our daily lives we make such minor choices as to separate us from the purity I find inhuman in so many high fantasy novels. How many times have I driven past the guy asking for change. I didn't even consider if he's honest or a liar. I didn't even ask him of his situation. Maybe offer him some work I'm unwilling to do to build his dignity and shrink my To-Do list.

What of the thousands of children we see stream past us. They ingest a deluge of murky morals daily. I don't say hello to them, ask them what they think of this or that, try to steer them to a higher moral understanding.

What of the hundreds of thousands of refugees that are plastered all over the news. They are indirectly in their current predicament because of our apathy. I don't speak out for them. I don't condemn the people in charge for the actions that so belittle the lives of people who are no different from us, but for a different preference of clothing and inclined to produce different sounds from their throats when they communicate.

Yeah, I guess I am cynical.

Bringing this back in line. We are humans. We are the ambiguous mold by which all characters are created. We may be vocal against the oppressed, but we break moral codes all the time. We consume different chemicals to produce altered states of mind, we seek physical pleasures outside our established moral method of courtship, etc. The pure-heart who acts to defend the weak, is he not flawed somewhere else?


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## Feo Takahari (Jul 2, 2015)

@Ankari: Geez, what books are you reading?

As for the topic, I feel like proposing an example. One of my settings has a race called Brutes whose ancestors tried to achieve ultimate magical power and failed. As a result, all of them have the ability to make themselves feel any emotion at will, and the inability to directly tell which emotions they're naturally feeling. A Brute may not realize she's sad until she notices that she's crying, but if she chooses to _act_ sad, she will instantly feel and recognize sadness. In addition, Brutes are immune to all magic related to the soul, including any spell that could determine whether they even have souls, and they have no resistance whatsoever to polymorph magic, which beings with souls can usually resist to some degree.

From an in-universe perspective, the dominant society thinks Brutes are soulless monsters. From an out-of-universe perspective, I consider them human, and one of the major characters is a Brute who's supposed to be sympathetic. But how about you guys? Would you say that Brutes are human?


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## Tom (Jul 2, 2015)

I'm not sure. One of the defining traits of humanity, to me, is self-awareness. An integral part of humanity is our sense of self, and our exploration and understanding of our thoughts and feelings. If you're not aware that you're experiencing emotion until you notice its physiological effects, are you truly feeling emotion at all?


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## Feo Takahari (Jul 2, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> If you're not aware that you're experiencing emotion until you notice its physiological effects, are you truly feeling emotion at all?



That one I can definitely answer in the affirmative. (I did some basic research on alexithymia to help me write my Brutes, although they have their own issues to contend with.)


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## Sheilawisz (Jul 3, 2015)

Why is it that almost everybody considers emotions as an integral part of being human?

That would mean that any alien species in some other planet would qualify as human just by having deep emotions and self-awareness, even in case they happen to be 12-feet tall Wolf people or something like that. I disagree, because then they could say that we are _Wolfine_ because we feel stuff similar to theirs.

@Feo: If your Brutes could breed successfully with us in a visit to our world, I would call them human. If not, they are a different species.

My own example would be this:

The people seen in my story _Violet Riding Hood_ and its sequel _Whispers of the Witch_ look very similar to us Earth people, with a little difference in eye colors, eye appearance and other things. They have similar emotions and self-awareness, but if you brought them here things would not turn out well.

Any attempt at breeding between us and them would result in total failure, not to mention the spread of infections that would affect both species and probably cause a dangerous pandemic in the world.

They may look like us and feel like us, but they are a separate species after all.


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## Spider (Jul 3, 2015)

I think what it boils down to is evaluating whether the species in question is human _in the context of the world that they are a part of_. Of course, as previously mentioned, there are so many ways to answer the question of what it means to be human. In our world, I would say that what makes humans distinct from animals is their ability to think abstractly and assess their place in the world. Animals require basic needs in order to survive (food, water, etc.), whereas humans require basic needs in addition to a means of confirming existence. On our planet, I don't believe there is any other species with our level of self-awareness.

In a fantasy world, however, we might not be able to use these same conditions to differentiate humans from other species. Abstract thinking and self-awareness might be more prevalent in the species of a fantasy world (Ex. elves, dwarves). As a result, what it means to be human can take a different spin (granted, they will likely share many of the same characteristics as the humans of our world, but what sets them apart from other species might be different). An example would be that we see humans as biologically distinct from other species if they cannot interbreed with these other species, but what if that isn't necessarily an important defining characteristic of humans in another world? Tolkien's Elves and Humans were different because of the strength of their spirits (_fea_). Perhaps we should contain the question of "what makes a character human" within the boundaries of the science, culture, and history of the character's world, not only our own.


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