# Ditching Romance and Sexual Tension



## Mindfire (Apr 17, 2012)

In my writing, I make a point of avoiding romance and sexual tension, mostly for pragmatic reasons. Namely: I can't write either of them very well. But if I'm being totally honest, I'm also being a bit of a troll. I despise love triangles, token romances, and the like.

My first question is, simply put, do readers "expect" romance and sexual tension? Is it something that a writer is "obligated" to include, is only for believability's sake, or can it be swept under the rug? If it _can _be ignored, _should _it? I know a lot of this will "depend on the audience", but I'm looking for a fairly general answer. (But not "it's up to you" kind of answers. General ≠ vague.) I'm interested to know who cares (or doesn't care) about these things.

My second question is a bit more specific to my work. In my WIP there is a female character who becomes a friend to the protagonist. In most books she would probably be the love interest, but I decided to eschew that in favor of a platonic friendship devoid of sexual tension. Over time (years) their friendship does deepen into love and they get married... but it happens between books. By book two they're married and relatively settled. (Well as settled as a tribal warrior family can be.) Will the reader (especially a female reader) feel "cheated" that I skipped over their romantic development? I know I personally wouldn't mind (the Star Wars prequels would have been greatly improved if the Padme/Anakin thing happened between movies instead of on the screen), but my perspective is limited.


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## Ankari (Apr 17, 2012)

I don't mind love interests.  I do mind that every book that uses romance makes it so that it mirrors our present day lifestyle.  Most of our fantasy writing is based off of historical civilizations.  Well, historically, romance didn't develop between a woman who threw all the signals and the idiot man who didn't know what was going on until she hit him in the head with a frying pan.

I would like to see romance develop in the way that they did back then; it blossomed _after_ the marriage.  This allows the author to focus more on the emotional development and not the sexual tension between the two.  

As to your second question, if I take what I just wrote into consideration, no.  I think the female readers will want to see the emotional development and not how he finally figured out who he should bed and how it should be done.  You can still do this with your story.


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## Devor (Apr 17, 2012)

The short answer is yes, you should include romance.  It's a part of life.

The long answer is no, you can skip romance, but only if you substitute other realistic forms of personal conflict - and it might be fairly hard to find a life-moment to write about where Romance wouldn't play a factor in the life of any character whatsoever.  Even on a battlefield or in prison somebody's writing to a girl at home.




Mindfire said:


> My second question is a bit more specific to my work. In my WIP there is a female character who becomes a friend to the protagonist. In most books she would probably be the love interest, but I decided to eschew that in favor of a platonic friendship devoid of sexual tension. Over time (years) their friendship does deepen into love and they get married... but it happens between books. By book two they're married and relatively settled. (Well as settled as a tribal warrior family can be.) Will the reader (especially a female reader) feel "cheated" that I skipped over their romantic development? I know I personally wouldn't mind (the Star Wars prequels would have been greatly improved if the Padme/Anakin thing happened between movies instead of on the screen), but my perspective is limited.



You can do anything, but I think that would be tough to pull off.  At the very least you have to strongly foreshadow the relationship and clearly justify why the time-frame jump was absolutely necessary.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 17, 2012)

The difficulty with that is that historically, single young women were quite busy with their own family matters (raising younger siblings, working in the business, or helping run a household, or if they were common, working in a field).  They weren't out there leading their own free lives, flirting with young men who happened by.  That alone sets fantasy settings apart from our history.  So one cannot have it both ways.  If your women are independent enough to read, wield a sword, or go on a quest, she's not going to be a meek sheltered thing. If she sees something she likes, isn't she just as capable as a man of saying so?  

Now that doesn't mean you need your characters to lose their minds and be forced to write steamy scenes (especially if you don't feel comfortable doing so).  I have several books where the attraction between characters goes no further than a couple little flirty scenes.  In my opinion, the age of the characters might play a factor in this decision.  If your characters are older than 20, I'd consider how unlikely it is that they are attracted to each other and not acting upon that in some way.  And let's be serious, adults do notice the members of the opposite sex they are in contact with frequently, friendship might be the only thing that stops them from acting.  

 See I have the exact opposite problem, I am a softy for love, and write it into almost everything.


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## Ireth (Apr 17, 2012)

I don't mind love interests either, but I don't think every fantasy book requires one. Heck, the whole point of one of my novels is that the female lead HATES the guy who wants to marry her (by force, I might add) and spends the whole book trying to escape him -- and not to return to her actual True Love, either. She's single and quite happy to be so. A romance does seem likely to pop up between two supporting characters in the sequel, but the jury's still out on whether that would benefit or harm the overall story. It would probably be a Token Romance anyway.

In another novel, I'd started out with every intention of keeping the male lead (a vampire) single, and hooking up his (human) sister and (vampire) best friend. That completely backfired. Not only did the friend and the sister barely interact, but the friend seemed to harbor some affection for the male lead, and only admitted it at the climax. I'm trying to rework it in the second draft. I want it to ultimately end up as something platonic, or perhaps a father/son thing, given the very large age gap between them.


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## ScipioSmith (Apr 17, 2012)

I think readers expect romance in fantasy in much the same way as they expect battles: they might initially be surprised not to see any, but if you give them something cool to distract them they'll soon forget.

I also think that if you can't write romance you probably shouldn't, as there's nothing worse than a badly done romantic subplot. By the end of the Farseer Trilogy I absolutely hated Molly, an incubus on the story who added nothing and had no relevance to anything _except_ as a love interest for Fitz. 

As to your second question, off screen character development often feels like a cheat unless it follows very logically from where said character ended the last book (so if a character ends one book declaring his intent to train as a swordsman, then the next book starts two years later with his skills correspondingly improved, that's fine); for something like this, if I read that two characters had gone from platonic friends to married in between volumes I would balk at it, unless you've done some seriously heavy foreshadowing beforehand.


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## Ghost (Apr 17, 2012)

ScipioSmith said:


> I also think that if you can't write romance you probably shouldn't, as there's nothing worse than a badly done romantic subplot.



Agreed. There is no rule that any book has to have romance. In fact, sometimes it takes away from the story instead of adding to it. Not every part of life needs to be reflected in one novel. There are novels where no one dies, no one is born, no one one has a birthday, etc, during the course of the narrative. That doesn't mean the character doesn't experience those events, but they might not be relevant for that particular story.

As for the second part, I agree with ScipioSmith and Devor. If the characters went through a life change between books, I'd lose trust in the author. What else happened between books that the author will spring on me? It's one thing if they remain platonic friends throughout, but the shift in their relationship requires some explanation. I'd expect you to pick up the threads and show how their relationship is different and how it's the same. So either way, you still have to explore their relationship, otherwise it feels like a subplot you picked up but quickly dropped or it feels forced.

I'm not saying you have to give them mushy, gushy feelings and they have to recite sonnets to each other, but I'd want to know what changed and if they're happy or not, if they're comfortable with each other or it's awkward.

Do they need to get married or is it something to meet any expectations of romance? If it's the second, I recommend skipping it altogether instead of bringing marriage into the second in after you've made it clear in the first that they were just friends.


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## Jabrosky (Apr 17, 2012)

Like others said earlier, I don't think romance is absolutely mandatory for any genre. That said, I would like to have some love or at least sex in my stories, as I'm a horny guy.

That said, as a fan of action-packed stories, I tend to write my female protagonists as warriors, yet that raises the question of whether such women would involve themselves in romance in the first place. I would think pregnancy and nursing would get in the way of fighting.


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## JCFarnham (Apr 17, 2012)

ScipioSmith said:


> By the end of the Farseer Trilogy I absolutely hated Molly, an incubus on the story who added nothing and had no relevance to anything _except_ as a love interest for Fitz.



Judging by the name Molly, I believe you mean succubus instead of incubus (unless of course the author stuffed that up too haha, stranger things have happened).


When it comes to romance subplots and sexual tension I emplore everyone to play it *with logic*. If a character, given the right setting and the right situation to fall in lust or more, _doesn't_ ... well I'd be very highly suspicious. There are certain things you can sweep under the rug, but when it comes to something so ingrained in the human condition it would be all kinds of wrong to ignore "sexuality" completely, especially if you have human characters. 

Amongst other things it depends on age, teenagers and young adults are hardly going to be able to ignore it regardless of what was expected of them by society (mating instinct, you know). Adult less so, they'd be able to exercise a bit more control I'd say. Now of course I'm speaking in generalisation (before any one picks me up on that), but your mileage may vary.

So. If you want to ditch a romance plot... well, 1) not everyone falls in love. Some people are asexual, some people aren't in the right frame of mind given there current and past situation, some people just don't "click". 2) give those character something to distract them. A war could do the trick, they might have more important things to do after all like, I don't know, saving the world. 

Even if it's nothing more than a footnote, I think it should be thought about. 

@ Mindfire: I would expect most people would need to see some kind of evidence of a love interest before the two are suddenly married in the next book. I'm not a "sucker for romance", nor am I so insecure in my masculinity that I need to act as though romance is the devil, but even I would feel cheated. As Scipio said: Foreshadowing would be needed. 

Just because something is hard for one to write doesn't mean we shouldn't write it. Logical conclusions win in my mind.


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## Mindfire (Apr 17, 2012)

Ouroboros said:


> Do they need to get married or is it something to meet any expectations of romance? If it's the second, I recommend skipping it altogether instead of bringing marriage into the second in after you've made it clear in the first that they were just friends.



No, I'm not doing it to "meet expectations." My reasons are as follows:
-I see it as a natural evolution of their relationship. I think its quite natural for friends to become romantically involved after they've known each other for an extended period of time because that person knows you better than anyone else.

-Pragmatism. My protagonist is a king. No marriage means no heir, which is problematic.

-Law of conservation of detail. Inventing a new character for this purpose would be a waste of space, time, and energy. A character created as a love interest would be very one-note and obviously so. It's better to "fold" this role into a character already available.

-Pragmatism again. While my protagonist is off doing whatever, who's in charge in his home territory? I need a queen to run things while Reuben is away.

-To be a troll. I know, it's bad, but I have to be honest. The idea of someone expecting a romantic subplot but instead getting a throwaway line makes me laugh.


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## JCFarnham (Apr 17, 2012)

Just be aware that no matter what your personal reasons for writing something are you are still in all likelihood writing to tell a tale, aka writing for other people. At the end of the day it's your readers who matter and if they feel cheated then ...

What I'm saying is do what feels right for you, write what you would like to read, and so on, but be careful, in my opinion trolling to prove a point isn't worth losing an audience for. 

Of course ... if they get it, all power to you! haha

He's a king. If he wants a wife he'll get it whether its in the books or between the books, and whether _she_ is in love or not. Your pragmatism points are good ones.


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## Mindfire (Apr 17, 2012)

JCFarnham said:


> I would expect most people would need to see some kind of evidence of a love interest before the two are suddenly married in the next book. I'm not a "sucker for romance", nor am I so insecure in my masculinity that I need to act as though romance is the devil, but even I would feel cheated. As Scipio said: Foreshadowing would be needed.





JCFarnham said:


> Just be aware that no matter what your personal reasons for writing something are you are still in all likelihood writing to tell a tale, aka writing for other people. At the end of the day it's your readers who matter and if they feel cheated then ...
> 
> What I'm saying is do what feels right for you, write what you would like to read, and so on, but be careful, in my opinion trolling to prove a point isn't worth losing an audience for.
> 
> ...



I take your point. And although I admit the trolling bit does amuse me, I agree that it's not a good sole motivator. 

I should probably say that the reason they don't fall for each other in the first book is because they have more important things to do: Taking a throne, making peace with direwolves, eradicating a cult of kidnappers who practice human sacrifice, etc. Between all that they don't really have _time _to fall in love. I'd imagine as things settle down, that would change. I'm relying on the reader's imagination to fill in the gap. The protagonist starts out as a lone wolf type. The fact that he grows close to her at all is remarkable and could be considered a "hint". Would that be enough foreshadowing?


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## Penpilot (Apr 17, 2012)

Being a guy who rather likes the mushy stuff, I don't think it's required. For one book, it's relatively simple to avoid, but the more stories you tell with a set of characters or in a universe, the more I think it'd be expected to pop up in one form or another, not even necessarily involving your main characters directly.

If you're avoiding it because you don't think you can write it, I don't think that's good way to go about improving your writing skills. I'm not saying shoehorn it in even if it's bad, but I would suggest practising it. My general feeling is it's pretty darn hard to avoid forever.


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## Rikilamaro (Apr 17, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> My first question is, simply put, do readers "expect" romance and sexual tension? Is it something that a writer is "obligated" to include, is only for believability's sake, or can it be swept under the rug? If it _can _be ignored, _should _it? I know a lot of this will "depend on the audience", but I'm looking for a fairly general answer. (But not "it's up to you" kind of answers. General ≠ vague.) I'm interested to know who cares (or doesn't care) about these things.
> 
> My second question is a bit more specific to my work. In my WIP there is a female character who becomes a friend to the protagonist. In most books she would probably be the love interest, but I decided to eschew that in favor of a platonic friendship devoid of sexual tension. Over time (years) their friendship does deepen into love and they get married... but it happens between books. By book two they're married and relatively settled. (Well as settled as a tribal warrior family can be.) Will the reader (especially a female reader) feel "cheated" that I skipped over their romantic development? I know I personally wouldn't mind (the Star Wars prequels would have been greatly improved if the Padme/Anakin thing happened between movies instead of on the screen), but my perspective is limited.



I don't expect romance, but I enjoy it. Life without love is a waste of time. I think most stories are the same way. So don't sweep it under the rug.

YES I would feel cheated, and confused if two characters completely platonic in the first book were married by the second one. If you want me to care about your characters then I will think of them as friends. If my friends showed up married one day without warning I would be very put out.


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## Devor (Apr 17, 2012)

ScipioSmith said:


> I also think that if you can't write romance you probably shouldn't, as there's nothing worse than a badly done romantic subplot.



This.

I had to learn the hard way, there's a right thing, but there's also a right way to do the wrong thing.  If the right way to do it is to include the romantic section, there's still a way to skip the section that'll be the least jarring for your readers.  You need to figure out which you're looking for and commit to it.


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## Ivan (Apr 17, 2012)

You could drop a few winks and glances to hint that they like each other (or that one likes the other at least) in the earlier book, without getting into any kind of detail, and have them married in the later book. Still, they'd have to be married for a while before they could plausibly stop doing romantic things.

All the same I am strongly of the opinion that if you aren't good at writing something, don't write it.


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## Ivan (Apr 17, 2012)

You could drop a few winks and glances to hint that they like each other (or that one likes the other at least) in the earlier book, without getting into any kind of detail, and have them married in the later book. Still, they'd have to be married for a while before they could plausibly stop doing romantic things. EDIT: You could have one betray the love of the other explaining a convenient coldness toward each other early on in their wedlock.

All the same I am strongly of the opinion that if you aren't good at writing something, don't write it.


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## Ghost (Apr 17, 2012)

I don't mind the pragmatic angle, but I'd still expect to know the difference before and after. They were friends, and then what? Polite partners who respect and admire each other but aren't passionate? Still friends but with playful sexual undertones? Deeply in love with each other?

There are different kinds of friendships and different kinds of love and the gap may be too big to bridge. At the very least, foreshadowing in the first book and a rundown of their decision in the second book would help. It doesn't need to go on and on for chapters, but readers ought to be filled in. Trolling people takes away from the satisfaction some of them might have had with your characters.



Mindfire said:


> The fact that he grows close to her at all is remarkable and could be considered a "hint". Would that be enough foreshadowing?



It depends on how their relationship plays out. If they are like buddies or travel companions, then it's not enough of a hint. If they're very close friends who trust each other implicitly...maybe.

If you see it as a natural evolution of their relationship, why skip the progression?

I'm curious about something. How important is this woman's role in the first book vs. the second? Is it at roughly the same level or is it more important in one than the other?


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## Mindfire (Apr 17, 2012)

Ouroboros said:


> I don't mind the pragmatic angle, but I'd still expect to know the difference before and after. They were friends, and then what? Polite partners who respect and admire each other but aren't passionate? Still friends but with playful sexual undertones? Deeply in love with each other?
> 
> There are different kinds of friendships and different kinds of love and the gap may be too big to bridge. At the very least, foreshadowing in the first book and a rundown of their decision in the second book would help. It doesn't need to go on and on for chapters, but readers ought to be filled in. Trolling people takes away from the satisfaction some of them might have had with your characters.
> 
> ...



I'm thinking of skipping the progression because, again, I have no clue how to write that kind of thing. I want to avoid being awkward (like Attack of the Clones awkward) at all costs. Also because there's really no space for it. More important events need to be focused on. As for her role, I'm still figuring that out. If you had asked me a few months ago, I'd have said that her role in the first book is more important and that in the sequel she's more of a background character. But now I'm inclined to say her roles in the two books are equal because I'm planning on giving her a subplot to herself in the sequel about her dealing with new threats on the homefront while the protag is away.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 18, 2012)

Penpilot said:


> Being a guy who rather likes the mushy stuff,



You're my hero.

One thing I think is being largely overlooked in this thread is WHY people marry.  I mean, there's a difference between being friends with absolutely no romantic feelings, and being married.  Trust me, this is a subject I know all about. 

Wouldn't your king simply take a foreign princess for his wife?  Then he could stay great friends with your other MC.  Don't get me wrong, I married a prince who becomes king to a common woman in one of my stories, I'm just saying that if you don't feel comfortable writing their attraction to each other, the simple way to avoid it all would be to marry him to someone else so he can have his heirs, and allow the MCs to remain friends.


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## Ghost (Apr 18, 2012)

I could see a pragmatic guy saying "I need a wife. She'll do." instead of wasting time when he's got a lot on his plate. It doesn't have to be love, especially if they both benefit from the marriage.

If she had an more important role in the first book than the second, I'd feel like she gets shunted off to fulfill the role of love interest. It's like the character gets demoted for becoming someone's wife. I only assumed that because you mentioned the love interest being "one-note" so I thought queen would have no real responsibilities.

So I'm glad to know you're considering the subplot. I don't think you need to write about something you dislike reading especially when you're not confident you can pull it off credibly. Work around it. You don't need romance and sexual tension if they're both driven people who have more important things to worry about (like direwolves, cults, and kingdoms). [ETA: or anihow's plan would work.]

So many fantasy protagonists find the time to mope about their true loves between battling the Dark Lord and learning magic...

It makes me wonder how focused they are on saving the world. :confused2:


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## Amanita (Apr 18, 2012)

I have to agree with most of the others.
Fantasy stories don't _have_ to include romance and if you don't want to have it in there, don't write it in. If there's enough interesting stuff happening, this shouldn't be a problem. I like well-done romance, but bad romance has actually ruined some books for me. Therefore better nothing than something bad in my opinion.
The story arc with your two main characters seems weird to me as well, however. If you're making a point about them not feeling any romantic attraction for each other, seeing them married in the second book would be quite off-putting to me. Putting in a few hints in the first book should be possible without taking too much time. They don't have to act on it or anything for that. If you don't want to do this, go the way anihow has suggested and get him another wife. This will fit much better than two characters suddenly marrying without any prior hints. Some people are very obsessed with romance and would probably be quite angry about this. It's getting really irrational in many fandoms, something I don't really understand but it's happening.


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## Kit (Apr 18, 2012)

Amanita said:


> I like well-done romance, but bad romance has actually ruined some books for me. Therefore better nothing than something bad in my opinion.



+1.  Personally I find that the stuff I enjoy writing comes out well, and the stuff that I don't enjoy writing is mediocre at best. So if you don't enjoy writing romance, I'd say don't force yourself... the story will probably be better if you stick to what you like to write.

I find it completely annoying when a story has all of the characters neatly paired off at the end, as if that's the only legitimate conclusion feasable.


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## The Dark One (Apr 18, 2012)

Let me start by saying I've only skimmed this thread so others may have already said this...sorry.

If it's a story for adults and involves men AND women...ignore romance at your peril. Especially where people are drawn into some sort of adventure together they will inevitably be drawn together in romantic ways. It would a strange and unpithy couple that were not.

My other point relates to the milieu. In a tribal culture, the idea of a platonic relationship is, to my mind, far-fetched. Such cultures are not typically 'romantic' in the western sense and have very strongly defined gender roles which you also ignore at your peril.

Two nubile types from a tribal culture on a quest? They'd be at it like stoats!


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## Jon_Chong (Apr 18, 2012)

I think we as a society has come to expect romance in our entertainment, no matter how far fetched and silly it might be. Take John Carter for example. The movie, I mean. The romance was by and large unbelievable and in my opinion, was the worse bit of the book. Coincidentally, the romance subplot in Hunger Games was nicely done. So what does this mean for you? Jack shit. Your book, your rules. If you don't want to add in romance, that is your prerogative. However, if you wish to have off screen development, you're in luck. It has been done, and it has been done by an extremely good author - though it should be said that his romance sub-plots are like sub plots of sub plots. Enter one Sir Terry Pratchett.

In Guards! Guards! You are introduced to Sam Vimes and Sybil Ramkin. A sort of romance happens between the alcoholic captain of the Night Watch and a woman built like a battering ram but in the entire book it gets no more than five scenes of development. Fast forward to the next book and you discover they are getting married. They eventually do, amidst the usual assassination attempts and thief chasing. About three more books later, it is announced that they are expecting except Sam is now being sent back in time to well... the rest is history. The point should be clear. Well, there appears to be two points here.

1.) You can have off-screen development, just squeeze in some mushy bits every now and again.
2.) No courtship is the same. Your king and queen and look each other in the eye and the end of the first book at the end of their adventures and say two words. "Shall we?" Then you can end the book with a wedding ceremony and a final kiss. Minimum mushy stuff and it allows for the rest of the development to happen off screen

Hope this helps


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## Mindfire (Apr 18, 2012)

anihow said:


> You're my hero.
> 
> One thing I think is being largely overlooked in this thread is WHY people marry.  I mean, there's a difference between being friends with absolutely no romantic feelings, and being married.  Trust me, this is a subject I know all about.
> 
> Wouldn't your king simply take a foreign princess for his wife?  Then he could stay great friends with your other MC.  Don't get me wrong, I married a prince who becomes king to a common woman in one of my stories, I'm just saying that if you don't feel comfortable writing their attraction to each other, the simple way to avoid it all would be to marry him to someone else so he can have his heirs, and allow the MCs to remain friends.



Maybe "king" is the wrong word. He's not a traditional king, more of a tribal chieftain. And the nation he rules is somewhat isolationist, so he couldn't just "marry a foreigner." Also, I want to avoid inventing a new character if possible. As for why they marry, well she's the one who welcomed him into a new culture, been his most faithful companion, hunted and fought side by side with him, pulled him out of the fire a couple times, etc. They have a very strong bond.


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## Mindfire (Apr 18, 2012)

The Dark One said:


> Let me start by saying I've only skimmed this thread so others may have already said this...sorry.
> 
> If it's a story for adults and involves men AND women...ignore romance at your peril. Especially where people are drawn into some sort of adventure together they will inevitably be drawn together in romantic ways. It would a strange and unpithy couple that were not.
> 
> ...



Well... not exactly. First off, my work is probably less "Adult" and more YA (or whatever category you'd put things like the Codex Alera into, since that's probably the closest work to my book in terms of tone and style, but the stories are worlds apart so its not a perfect match).

Anyway, the people in question here have great powers of self-control. A very mission-focused attitude that I assume would develop quickly when 90% of everything that lives with you in your home environment wants to kill you, herbivores and carnivores alike. Beyond that, some might even consider my protag sociopathic, but his only real sociopathic act is slaughtering _a cult of child-killers_ with zero remorse, so YMMV on that one. Of course this ability to sublimate emotion is limited to a single ethnic group and doesn't always hold. In fact, one of the sympathetic villains becomes a villain because she _can't_ separate her emotions from the issue at hand. (Her daughter is the cult leader. Hi-jinks ensue.)

Also, I think you have the wrong idea of platonic, or (more likely) I'm using the wrong word. I was envisioning a brothers-in-arms, "I've got your back" kind of thing. Because that's the kind of culture these two come from. Because in the area they live, they're constantly under threat of wild animals, there are fewer "defined gender roles" and more an attitude of "all hands on deck". The only really defined gender role is that a woman generally fills the role of spiritual authority, while a man fills the role of temporal authority, but there are exceptions.


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## The Din (Apr 18, 2012)

You could always just castrate the bugger and be done with it.

As a guy, I've been 'falling in love' since i was eleven or twelve. If you plan on exploring the characters in depth, its going to be a lot harder without including this aspect at all. Just imagine yourself in your MC's body. Are you going to traipse around all day with a (beautiful/possibly topless) tribal woman and not admire her rump a time or two? (And/or try and tap that thang.) 

Love and lust are a great way to influence you MCs and villains, to leave them asexual is to limit their motives and goals. (Plus, you'll lose all the twilight fans without a serious amount of angst.)


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## Mindfire (Apr 18, 2012)

The Din said:


> You could always just castrate the bugger and be done with it.
> 
> As a guy, I've been 'falling in love' since i was eleven or twelve. If you plan on exploring the characters in depth, its going to be a lot harder without including this aspect at all. Just imagine yourself in your MC's body. Are you going to traipse around all day with a (beautiful/possibly topless) tribal woman and not admire her rump a time or two? (And/or try and tap that thang.)
> 
> Love and lust are a great way to influence you MCs and villains, to leave them asexual is to limit their motives and goals. (Plus, you'll lose all the twilight fans without a serious amount of angst.)



The Twilight fans are the main group I wanted to troll.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 18, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> I was envisioning a brothers-in-arms, "I've got your back" kind of thing. Because that's the kind of culture these two come from. Because in the area they live, they're constantly under threat of wild animals, there are fewer "defined gender roles" and more an attitude of "all hands on deck".



Well that clears it up for me.  If I was a strong woman (young or other) in a society where women and men live and work alongside each other, and I went on an adventure with my dear friend and chieftain... I'd have problems keeping my hands to myself.  But then, I've always suffered from impulse control problems.


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## Christopher Wright (Apr 18, 2012)

Romance is icky. Kissin' and stuff.

...

... what I mean to say is, I think it depends entirely on the story you want to tell. If you're writing a bodice-ripper then it's sort of mandatory. In other types of stories, it can be used well and can show unexpected sides of a character. Take a man who is a blood-crazed killer on the battlefield, feared by his men, and then put him in a situation where his love for a woman makes him gentle and thoughtful toward her, perhaps even engaging in poetry of all things, and you have a slightly less mono-dimensional character. Have two characters who are drawn to each other but are also competitive and willful, and as a result are constantly bickering and needling each other, and you have the potential for a humorous subplot throughout the story.

On the other hand, it isn't necessary, and if the work exceeds the reward it might be better to yank it out and have a leaner, faster-moving story as a result.


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## Jabrosky (Apr 18, 2012)

In my current story-in-progress, _The Elephant's Scimitar_, my male and female lead are already married. I don't know how important their relationship will be in the story as I'm writing it as I go.


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## Elder the Dwarf (Apr 18, 2012)

Not that another opinion is needed, but I would say that one book without any romance is fine.  However, if you have multiple books with none whatsoever, people are going to start asking what the hell is going on.


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## Mindfire (Apr 18, 2012)

anihow said:


> Well that clears it up for me.  If I was a strong woman (young or other) in a society where women and men live and work alongside each other, and I went on an adventure with my dear friend and chieftain... I'd have problems keeping my hands to myself.  But then, I've always suffered from impulse control problems.





Christopher Wright said:


> Have two characters who are drawn to each other but are also competitive and willful, and as a result are constantly bickering and needling each other, and you have the potential for a humorous subplot throughout the story.



I think the two of you might be on to something. Like I said, if I'm being honest and not trolling, an impartial review of the facts makes it fairly obvious that these two are attracted to each other. The problem is that I don't know how to voice that, and neither does Reuben (protagonist). I have a sneaking suspicion that Maya (female companion) does, but she's not talking to me right now. Might have something to do with me not letting her express her feelings or some-such. She's being really passive-aggressive about it.

Aside from trolling, the reason I was thinking of avoiding the romance angle is that I don't want to pull a Disney, where you only have to know someone for five minutes to fall head-over-heels in love with them. I feel a transition from close companions to lifelong partners would be more believable. But I also have zero confidence in my ability to write romantic interaction. So I guess it's a wash.  Truthfully, if I could acknowledge their mutual attraction in a way that didn't derail the book or create an unneeded subplot, I wouldn't mind terribly, although I'd have to give up my dreams of trollng lol.  I actually liked the interaction between Batman and Wonder Woman in Justice League Unlimited, and I think these characters would get along similarly.


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## Mindfire (Apr 18, 2012)

Elder the Dwarf said:


> Not that another opinion is needed, but I would say that one book without any romance is fine.  However, if you have multiple books with none whatsoever, people are going to start asking what the hell is going on.



Well my first book is the only one that has even the _possibility _of a romantic subplot. My ideas for sequels skip the idea entirely simply because of the direction the plot takes. I wasn't consciously _trying _to dis-include it. But I also wasn't searching for ways to insert romantic subplots into a story that focuses on things like world war, an arms race, a corrupt priesthood, and political upheaval. Romance kinda just got left out. Coincidentally, I just realized that as the plot progresses there seem to be fewer important female characters*. But that's probably because my notes exclusively follow the main character and I haven't figured out what's going on elsewhere just yet.

Oh, wait. I lied, sorry. I just remembered that book 2 does have a (possible) romantic subplot involving the protagonist's cousin and a minor character from the first book who returns in a more substantial role.


*(Book 1 has 6. Book 2 has 3, only two of whom I have a defined role/subplot for. Book 3 has between 2 and 5, depending on how I pick up the threads for characters from previous books. And I haven't really planned beyond book  3.)


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## Penpilot (Apr 18, 2012)

I think if you want to deal with the mutual attraction with out actually having to deal with it or write the mushy stuff, all you have to do is hint at it. Maybe sprinkle instances, maybe three of them, where Reuben thinks about something he likes about Maya just sort of in passing as she's doing it: he respects her strength as she lifts something heavy, he admires her cunning as she tracks a deer, he's awed by her determination because she won't give up on a task. Stuff like that. There' aren't any mushy descriptions needed. Just matter of fact statements. Say enough times, without going overboard, that Reuben likes something about Maya, the reader will start connecting the dots and think he likes her, period. I don't think the story would have to say any more.

If you want to put a exclamation point on it, add in an awkward moment when they touch. Again no mushy descriptions needed. Just have them touch, meet eyes, then shy away, and maybe have one of them say something obviously stupid or non sequitur like "I like soup." and have the other play along for the response and then it's back to the story.  

Just some thoughts... take them for what ever they're worth.


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## Phin Scardaw (Apr 18, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> In my writing, I make a point of avoiding romance and sexual tension, mostly for pragmatic reasons. Namely: I can't write either of them very well. But if I'm being totally honest, I'm also being a bit of a troll. I despise love triangles, token romances, and the like.
> 
> (the Star Wars prequels would have been greatly improved if the Padme/Anakin thing happened between movies instead of on the screen)



First of all, the only thing that could save those Star Wars movies is a tank of gasoline and a book of matches. I try to ignore their existence, even if I know that bad story-telling has value if only to demonstrate to others what NOT to do. 

Second of all, stories tell you what they need. I starting writing about a couple of parents who were going to go on a quest to find a cure for their little boy who was stricken by some mysterious ailment. After the first draft the story said to me, "Nope, you know what - this is going to be a love triangle now!" and the little boy changed into an older brother. The woman was suddenly caught between the love she had for two men, and although she marries one, she has the adventure with the other. This added a whole new dimension of tension that would have been missing in the original draft, and the story grew into its present form. It's rather similar to your body telling you what it needs, such as when you experience cravings. You just need to learn how to listen. If there's a place for love, a need for its function, you will learn of it. I write stories that move around Love as one of the central themes, because it seems to be one of the great motivating forces of humankind. 

Having said that, most fantasy stories are principally about Adventure. These bring out themes of courage and honour easily enough, but in a situation where the normal everyday lives of your characters have been interrupted by the adventure they've been thrust into, things like love and mortgage payments and laundry lists all go out the window. That's why it's very easy to write fantasy stories that can do quite well without love interests - these things usually only happen between people that have time to build relationships. 

I would say that love and romance (and by extension, sexuality - although this is a dicey game to play!) is effective in a fantasy story only when the characters that begin their quest are already in love. A young man who goes traipsing off into other worlds will spend a lot of time thinking about and perhaps writing to a distant loved one that he longs to see again. Or someone who's lost a lover can become enraged and go on a quest for vengeance. These are useful to the writer, because they add tension to the stories, and the conflicts are internalized. 

I remember Tanis in the DragonLance books had a heart that was divided between two women - but I think if I went back and read that over again I wouldn't find much depth in it. I mean on one hand he's got this elven princess, and on the other a dragonlord swordswoman who's aligned herself with the dark forces - it doesn't seem like a really tough choice and I know that those stories wouldn't lose much if that element of romance was removed. 

On the other hand, I recall that I really liked how Peter Jackson and his team brought to the forefront of their retelling the love affair that Aragorn had with Arwen (which is nearly non-existent in the books). The flashbacks added depth to his character and really helped to raise the stakes. The pay-off when he sees her appear from behind a banner in Minas Tirith is one of the most powerful moments of the entire film trilogy. Also, The Matrix is a great example of how love can empower a hero who otherwise has nothing to live for.


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## Mindfire (Apr 18, 2012)

Phin Scardaw said:


> First of all, the only thing that could save those Star Wars movies is a tank of gasoline and a book of matches. I try to ignore their existence, even if I know that bad story-telling has value if only to demonstrate to others what NOT to do.



I actually LIKE the Star Wars Prequels. I'm part of that generation that grew up with them. I was like 4 when the Phantom Menace came out. First Star Wars movie I ever saw. After that one I had to see them all. Also, the prequels are partly responsible for giving us Genndy Tartakovsky's Clone Wars, also known as the MOST EPIC STAR WARS RELATED THING EVER.






I'll read the rest of your post now.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 19, 2012)

It sounds a whole lot like the sort of love story between your two characters is an immature one, forming out of a friendship and respect.  That could be a whole lot of fun to write.  I think you should think of a handful of good ways to show their attraction, and write them.  Then when it feels right, fit them in and don't feel pressured to use every single one.  You can change what you need to later.  I think if you've built these characters to be disciplined, you need not go overboard with the passion, just hint that they like each other.  Smiles and kind gestures are where it all starts (unless you write like me, then just have someone sneak into someone else's tent under the guise of borrowing something.....)


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## Ankari (Apr 19, 2012)

Love stories tend to take too much away from a fantasy novel, especially when every movie lately is about a women torn between two men (Hunger Games and Twilight, though I never watched Twilight).  The novel slips from the unimaginable to the mundane.  Our lives our full of love triangles, can we please get back to epic fantasy?

Sorry about that.  When I conjure Twilight I get irritable.  I've seen some love stories done well, but only when it doesn't over power the story I want to read.  I think that when the story is about "Two guys and a girl......" I immediately lose interest (just like those who hate the prologue  ).  Make sure you story is about "A women, trusting only her daggers and wits, uncovers a plot that will bring chaos to her city."  That is a story I want to read.  If she bumps into some hobo in the middle of the story that is attracted to her, fine.  Let's just see if she is capable at her task.


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## Mindfire (Apr 19, 2012)

Ankari said:


> Love stories tend to take too much away from a fantasy novel, especially when every movie lately is about a women torn between two men (Hunger Games and Twilight, though I never watched Twilight).  The novel slips from the unimaginable to the mundane.  Our lives our full of love triangles, can we please get back to epic fantasy?
> 
> Sorry about that.  When I conjure Twilight I get irritable.  I've seen some love stories done well, but only when it doesn't over power the story I want to read.  I think that when the story is about "Two guys and a girl......" I immediately lose interest (just like those who hate the prologue  ).  Make sure you story is about "A women, trusting only her daggers and wits, uncovers a plot that will bring chaos to her city."  That is a story I want to read.  If she bumps into some hobo in the middle of the story that is attracted to her, fine.  Let's just see if she is capable at her task.



I can sympathize with your first paragraph. Your second paragraph sounds like its addressing somebody else's story... Um...thanks?


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## Ankari (Apr 19, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> I can sympathize with your first paragraph. Your second paragraph sounds like its addressing somebody else's story... Um...thanks?



Actually, no, its not.  I just took commons themes and used them as examples.  The "two guys and a girl...." is what you see in every PG-13 movie or any of those YA books.  If I offended anyone, it was not my intention.  Sorry.


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## Penpilot (Apr 19, 2012)

Ankari said:


> Love stories tend to take too much away from a fantasy novel, especially when every movie lately is about a women torn between two men (Hunger Games and Twilight, though I never watched Twilight).  The novel slips from the unimaginable to the mundane.  Our lives our full of love triangles, can we please get back to epic fantasy?



Are you saying love or rather a story containing lover or about love is mundane? If you are then I think you've been exposed to the wrong stuff. When done right, a love sub-plot can add all sorts of drama and tension to a story. It's one of the significant personal things a hero can fight for. IMHO without something personal, not necessarily love, at stake, a hero's quest to save the world or defeat a great evil becomes a play by play of a DnD game and all I hear are dice rolling. Personally, I can't imagine something like Lord of the Rings without  the Aragorn/Arwen sub-plot or even the Sam/Rosie bits. They ground the story and make them emotionally accessible. But what do I know...


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## Ankari (Apr 19, 2012)

Penpilot said:


> Are you saying love or rather a story containing lover or about love is mundane? If you are then I think you've been exposed to the wrong stuff. When done right, a love sub-plot can add all sorts of drama and tension to a story. It's one of the significant personal things a hero can fight for. IMHO without something personal, not necessarily love, at stake, a hero's quest to save the world or defeat a great evil becomes a play by play of a DnD game and all I hear are dice rolling. Personally, I can't imagine something like Lord of the Rings without  the Aragorn/Arwen sub-plot or even the Sam/Rosie bits. They ground the story and make them emotionally accessible. But what do I know...



As I said, I am not opposed to love in a fantasy novel, but I do hate it when it consumes the story.  Isn't that just a romance novel set in a fantasy world?  I have seen some stories written with love or romance in the book, hell, I'm even a fan of *Jacqueline Carey's* books.  But even throughout her books love took the backseat to the epic fantasy story.  I even loved (ironic word, huh?) how she portrayed the heroine, Phedre, in her first trilogy.  

But take a story like _Twilight_ and you and I know what I mean about love over powering the fantasy story.  This, I hate.  Another thing to consider: remember the movie _Braveheart_?  Isn't it selfish of William Wallace to ask the entire people of his homeland to fight because _his_ wife died?  Why did he suddenly get interested in the freedom of his people only after he suffered a personal loss?  Isn't that like a once wealthy man suddenly fighting for the rights of the poor after he goes bankrupt?  Where were his morals before he went bankrupt?

I go off on a tangent, but I hope I got my point across clearly enough.


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## Ghost (Apr 19, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Also, I think you have the wrong idea of platonic, or (more likely) I'm using the wrong word. I was envisioning a brothers-in-arms, "I've got your back" kind of thing.



I wondered about that, but used the word "buddies" instead. I have difficulty imagining two comrades suddenly being married in the next book. They have a basis of trust, but it's still an odd leap. Of course, I haven't read the books. It's hard to tell. I'd do whatever feels natural then figure out what works and what doesn't.



Ankari said:


> If she bumps into some hobo in the middle of the story that is attracted to her, fine.  Let's just see if she is capable at her task.



Lol, what does this even mean?

And why does anybody think Twilight fans are going to flock to Mindfire's books? I mean no disrespect to Mindfire--in fact, he'll probably consider it a compliment--but his approach looks nothing like Twilight. I don't get why he wants to troll Twilight fans or why Ankari thinks the audience for a YA paranormal romance is the same as the audience for epic fantasy. They're different subgenres and different expectations. There may be a little bit of overlap in the readership, but I don't think it's enough to cause worry.


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## The Dark One (Apr 19, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Anyway, the people in question here have great powers of self-control. A very mission-focused attitude that I assume would develop quickly when 90% of everything that lives with you in your home environment wants to kill you, herbivores and carnivores alike.



You're just making it worse! If I'm reading about people with great self-control, I want to see them tested...maybe eventually lose that self-control through the power of the growing attraction.


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## Christopher Wright (Apr 19, 2012)

Ankari said:


> Another thing to consider: remember the movie _Braveheart_?  Isn't it selfish of William Wallace to ask the entire people of his homeland to fight because _his_ wife died?  Why did he suddenly get interested in the freedom of his people only after he suffered a personal loss?  Isn't that like a once wealthy man suddenly fighting for the rights of the poor after he goes bankrupt?  Where were his morals before he went bankrupt?



Maybe he didn't have morals. It's frequently considered hypocrisy to suddenly be concerned about a cause after it affects you directly, but you can also call it "a transitional period of rapid learning."


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## Steerpike (Apr 19, 2012)

Mindfire:

Here is my thought on the original issue, and it echoes some of what has been said previously. I believe it comes down to how thoroughly you intend to represent the lives of the characters. For many Fantasy novels, the intent is not to represent a detailed account of the character's live over a given time period. It may be that you are following them through action and adventure and that's all. The characters might be assumed to have other lives outside of what you are dramatizing, but it doesn't have to be shown.

On the other hand, some stories carefully follow every aspect of a character's life over the course of events in the story. If this is a relatively short period of time, then romantic issues may not arise and I don't think anyone would think it odd. If it takes place over a great period of time, however, such as fantasy novels that span years, and if you are providing a very detailed look at the lives of the characters, then I think the lack of romantic issues does start to seem unusual. At the least, you'd want to explain why there are none. Love and romantic feelings are a fundamental and very nearly universal aspect of human life and the human experience. If you have a story that details all aspects of a character's life, and it follows the character over a substantial length of time, then lack of romantic elements without explanation would make the character very unrealistic to me.


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## Steerpike (Apr 19, 2012)

Christopher Wright said:


> Maybe he didn't have morals. It's frequently considered hypocrisy to suddenly be concerned about a cause after it affects you directly, but you can also call it "a transitional period of rapid learning."



Or he didn't have anything to lose anymore. A person may agree with one side on such a dangerous matter, but with a wife or family to consider may refrain from acting out of fear of putting the loved ones in harm's way. Once the basis for that fear is eliminated, there is no reason for restraint.


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## SeverinR (Apr 19, 2012)

I think sexuality is a spice to a story.  In fantasy it might or might not be a central issue to the story.  
You have the main plot, and the love or sexual part of my stories is a smaller sub plot, or even only hinted at.

Except in a male only story, such as a battlefield, ship at sea, or other reasons women aren't present, men will notice women, and women will notice men, even if they aren't in the same class. Although it would be true love when a elegant high class person falls for a dirty working class person, unless it happens to be bath day. Working class tended to work, and not worry about how clean they were or smelled.
Very few people can clean a horse stall and still look beautiful to someone passing by.
Also in winter, the working class and lower probably wore most of their clothes to keep warm, which means they can't be washed or even aired out much of the time.
I truly can't imagine what a tavern of working people would smell like at the end of the day. The rich would cover their odor with perfume, not sure if that would be much better.


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## Kelise (Apr 19, 2012)

In one of the book clubs I'm in, during a recent book-picking post, a surprisingly large amount of people agreed they have utterly no interest in reading a book (no matter the genre or hype) if it lacks romance. As we're a fairly large group of 50 actives or so, and pick a well-rounded selection of genres from SF from 50 years ago to new release urban fantasy to crime/thriller and then general literature... it was a surprise. Probably over twenty of the main posters agreed they'll put the book down if there's not enough romance.


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## Mindfire (Apr 19, 2012)

starconstant said:


> In one of the book clubs I'm in, during a recent book-picking post, a surprisingly large amount of people agreed they have utterly no interest in reading a book (no matter the genre or hype) if it lacks romance. As we're a fairly large group of 50 actives or so, and pick a well-rounded selection of genres from SF from 50 years ago to new release urban fantasy to crime/thriller and then general literature... it was a surprise. Probably over twenty of the main posters agreed they'll put the book down if there's not enough romance.



Why do you think that is? And out of curiosity, what's the male/female ratio in this group?


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## Ailith (Apr 19, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Why do you think that is?



I think that the desire to be known and loved is one of the most powerful desires that humans have. Readers want to experience that through the protagonist, just as they experience adventure, growth, resilience, insight, and knowledge and whatever else. In reality nobody can truly know someone and love them perfectly, but that only makes people want it more. So when readers see that protagonists have a shot at “true love,” that is a huge motivation to get invested in the story and keep turning pages. Whether it all works out or not, love makes protagonists more human and stories more beautiful, meaningful, or tragic. 

That being said, there’s nothing worse than reading something that’s overly-cheesy and unrealistic. Or stories that sacrifice main plotlines and character development to over-do the schmooze. 

And that’s the difficult part in writing: finding the balance. 

Also, while romance can be a powerful motivator and element of the story, I don’t think it’s required to make a great story.


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## Ophiucha (Apr 19, 2012)

I think people value relationships more than, necessarily, romance. A relationship doesn't have to be romantic. Look at, for example, the TV show _Supernatural_. The primary relationship in that show is between two brothers. Not that half the fandom doesn't choose to interpret that as romantic, but the fact is, the show does fine without any long-lasting romances (indeed, the only recurring romances, one for each brother, were received _poorly _by the fans). People enjoy strong friendships, parental bonds, sibling bonds, and other _sorts_ of romantic bonds (such as pre-established couples), but because the mainstream media tends to focus so much on falling in love, I think we're sort of used to calling our love of close relationships "romance" because that's what it almost always is. Particularly in novels.

Personally, I find most "falling in love" plots to be a bit... shoe-horned in at the last minute. I mean, you read it once, and people falling in love on the battlefield is sexy and romantic. You read it eighty times, and you just start thinking: "Jesus, people, your friends are dying, have a shag tomorrow for goodness' sake."


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## Kelise (Apr 19, 2012)

Mindfire said:
			
		

> Why do you think that is? And out of curiosity, what's the male/female ratio in this group?



I have utterly no idea why - not being 'into' romance that much. I found it quite odd that it was such a popular opinion. I was actually annoyed and bored by the romance in the book we were talking about. Makes me a little worried also since there isn't much romance - if any - in my series so far. 

The last time we did a poll, the ratio was about 65% female - but that was back over Christmas so may not be accurate. Still, we have a decent selection of males. I'd have to go back to the thread and see how many of the comments were from males.


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## Mindfire (Apr 19, 2012)

starconstant said:


> I have utterly no idea why - not being 'into' romance that much. I found it quite odd that it was such a popular opinion. I was actually annoyed and bored by the romance in the book we were talking about. Makes me a little worried also since there isn't much romance - if any - in my series so far.
> 
> The last time we did a poll, the ratio was about 65% female - but that was back over Christmas so may not be accurate. Still, we have a decent selection of males. I'd have to go back to the thread and see how many of the comments were from males.



I don't want to stereotype people, but I'm betting most if not all of those comments were from females. My research (on google) suggests females generally care more about romantic subplots than males do. See this article for a Star Wars related example. The question becomes, if my book is aimed at a primarily male audience (and I'd say it is), does that give me more license to ignore romantic subplots? Something to ponder.


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## Penpilot (Apr 19, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> I don't want to stereotype people, but I'm betting most if not all of those comments were from females. My research (on google) suggests females generally care more about romantic subplots than males do. See this article for a Star Wars related example. The question becomes, if my book is aimed at a primarily male audience (and I'd say it is), does that give me more license to ignore romantic subplots? Something to ponder.



I don't know if it matters either way. I wonder how many guys in general are willing to admit that romance matters even in an anonymous survey. 

I'm going try to tread lightly and not stick a foot in the mouth on the next comment, but if I do, feel free to hit me in the nose with the rolled up newspaper and sorry in advance. If a series of books involving guys and gals has zero romance in it, I think people --maybe just me-- may start to wonder why and start drawing their own conclusions as to why hunky-dude-one doesn't check out any of the curvy-girls but seems to love hanging out with all the dudes, grunting and wrestling and crossing swords. IMHO if romance is ignored for too long the world will feel unbalanced and readers will balance it for you and in ways probably not intended.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 19, 2012)

That's the problem with having all good-looking MCs.  Write ugly bastards and saggy women and no one will want a love scene to happen, trust me.


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## Phin Scardaw (Apr 20, 2012)

anihow said:


> That's the problem with having all good-looking MCs.  Write ugly bastards and saggy women and no one will want a love scene to happen, trust me.



I think that would make for a good Writing Challenge, don't you? Try to write a scene in which such a love scene DOES happen - but try to write it so the reader wants to finish it, not throw it away! 

"It's like a car crash! It's horrible, but I can't look away!!!"


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## Ophiucha (Apr 20, 2012)

Penpilot said:


> If a series of books involving guys and gals has zero romance in it, I think people --maybe just me-- may start to wonder why and start drawing their own conclusions as to why hunky-dude-one doesn't check out any of the curvy-girls but seems to love hanging out with all the dudes, grunting and wrestling and crossing swords.



Knowing the internet, this will likely just increase your readership. Bromances with sexual overtones are "in" right now.

In all seriousness, this viewpoint is kind of... sad? Like, I went a solid year of my life with nothing but male friends and never so much as crushed on a single one of 'em, let alone started up a relationship. Not because they weren't attractive or I was into somebody else, I just never ended up liking any of them like that. My main group of friends in high school was three girls and a guy, and none of us ever liked the guy, and as far as I know, he never had a crush on any of us. Not saying it never happens - of course it does - but in a group of three guys and a girl, there's really no guarantee any of them would do anything more than make a couple of sexist jokes before moving on to the barwenches in the local tavern.


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## Kit (Apr 20, 2012)

Ophiucha said:


> I think people value relationships more than, necessarily, romance. A relationship doesn't have to be romantic. Look at, for example, the TV show _Supernatural_. The primary relationship in that show is between two brothers. Not that half the fandom doesn't choose to interpret that as romantic, but the fact is, the show does fine without any long-lasting romances (indeed, the only recurring romances, one for each brother, were received _poorly _by the fans). People enjoy strong friendships, parental bonds, sibling bonds, and other _sorts_ of romantic bonds (such as pre-established couples),



One aspect of this that we see in fantasy fiction so often that it's now cliche is the familar (by any other name). Anne McCaffrey's dragons and fire lizards, Misty Lackey's Companions, Jennifer Roberson's lirs, Gayle Greeno's Ghattis... on and on.  People eat it up... they want that lifelong unconditional love bond.


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## Penpilot (Apr 20, 2012)

anihow said:


> That's the problem with having all good-looking MCs.  Write ugly bastards and saggy women and no one will want a love scene to happen, trust me.



Maybe this could all be resolved by writing with MCs as Trolls and Goblins.  



Ophiucha said:


> In all seriousness, this viewpoint is kind of... sad? Like, I went a solid year of my life with nothing but male friends and never so much as crushed on a single one of 'em, let alone started up a relationship. Not because they weren't attractive or I was into somebody else, I just never ended up liking any of them like that. My main group of friends in high school was three girls and a guy, and none of us ever liked the guy, and as far as I know, he never had a crush on any of us. Not saying it never happens - of course it does - but in a group of three guys and a girl, there's really no guarantee any of them would do anything more than make a couple of sexist jokes before moving on to the barwenches in the local tavern.



I'm not saying there can't be a completely platonic group of guys and gals in real life, but in the real world romance exists outside of a group. But I'm talking about a story. A story, and the story world as a whole, should contain basic elements that make it feel full and complete. And if one of those elements that should be there, like romance, is missing for too long, people will notice and may fill in those elements by drawing conclusions based on whatever random connections they think they see in the text even if the reader knows that's not what the author intended. Right or wrong, that does happen. It may not happen to everyone, but the possibility is there and can spoil a story for some. As I've said before, absence of romance in one book can easily work, but over a series, if it's not present in even the smallest form, like in side characters. I have strong doubts as to how well it would work. But who knows, anything can work if written well.


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## Amanita (Apr 20, 2012)

> Anne McCaffrey's dragons and fire lizards, Misty Lackey's Companions, Jennifer Roberson's lirs, Gayle Greeno's Ghattis... on and on. People eat it up...


Well, call it childish, or girlish or anything of that sort, but this kind of thing does appeal many people dealing with animals be it horses, dogs or others myseld not excluded even though they (hopefully) know it isn't realistic at some point.  
But back to romance between humans: Lord of the Rings for example hardly hat any and was successful enough. Especially if there's an all male (or all female) setting, most people not starting homosexual relationships would be quite realistic in my opinion.
As I had mentioned above, the fact that the two people without any romantic interest in each other are getting married later is the problem in the set up described here. I don't want to attack you or anything, but I do think that annoying fans of certain stories should not be a goal in one's writing. There's no use in that at all, and I think your story would be aimed at someone else anyway. 
If you want to avoid romace because you're uncomfortable with writing about lust or explicit sex (maybe for religious reasons), there's really no reason to describe this with anything more than hints. Many books do well without explicit sex and those that do include often aren't better for it. A few remarks about how they start caring for other in a special way, can imagine the other as father or mother of their children or anything along those lines can be done as well. This way, you'll make it clear that there's something going on between those two but you still don't have to write anything your uncomfortable with and later, when they're married you don't have to either.


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## The Dark One (Apr 20, 2012)

anihow said:


> That's the problem with having all good-looking MCs.  Write ugly bastards and saggy women and no one will want a love scene to happen, trust me.



I actually sprayed wine from nose and lips when I read that. 

When I first started writing seriously (almost 20 years ago) I never would have considered myself a romance writer on any level. My books are...fairly unique. But they do have romance in them...and sex. It just somehow happened because I got so deeply into my characters and that's where they took me. 

Looking back over my completed novels (two published...one in production) there's a surprising amount of sex (given the genres and subject matter). In fact, I regard myself as a bit of an expert on the bonk scene these days. If I haven't already written this on this forum, my bonk scene rules are as follows:

- the reader must desperately want them to do it
- the action must on at least two levels be somehow otherwise relevant to the plot or characterisation (preferably both); and
- the scene must be different from every other bonk scene in the history of literature.

I suspect that in the past, love and sex were less necessary in literature, but there is so much more realism expected of writers these days, and humans (or at least their literary manifestations) are naturally attracted to perfect manifestations of love.

Modern readers expect their characters to be whole.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Apr 22, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> In my writing, I make a point of avoiding romance and sexual tension, mostly for pragmatic reasons. Namely: I can't write either of them very well. But if I'm being totally honest, I'm also being a bit of a troll. I despise love triangles, token romances, and the like.



I usually include romances, but that's because I like them, being a romantic and all. Plus, I've been told I'm pretty good at writing them.



> My first question is, simply put, do readers "expect" romance and sexual tension? Is it something that a writer is "obligated" to include, is only for believability's sake, or can it be swept under the rug? If it _can _be ignored, _should _it? I know a lot of this will "depend on the audience", but I'm looking for a fairly general answer. (But not "it's up to you" kind of answers. General ≠ vague.) I'm interested to know who cares (or doesn't care) about these things.



Well, on one hand, people don't just fall in love simply because they have compatible sexual orientations and happen to find each other agreeable. On the other hand, human beings _are _naturally drawn to each other and people do fall in love quite frequently.

If you don't want a subplot focusing on your MCs falling love, you certainly don't have to. But if nobody in your story _ever _shows any romantic inclinations whatsoever, readers might see that as a flaw in your writing. It may come across as unrealistic, even a bit juvenile in a "I don't want any touchy-kissy-girly feelings in my awesome adventure story!" kind of way.

Also, I think a considerable percentage of readers _do _expect romances - that's where shipping comes from; some people will even see romances where there is no romance. It's pretty much human nature. You can ignore that or even try to discourage it, but don't expect that to work. Personally, I embrace it, because people wouldn't be doing it they didn't enjoy it.



> My second question is a bit more specific to my work. In my WIP there is a female character who becomes a friend to the protagonist. In most books she would probably be the love interest, but I decided to eschew that in favor of a platonic friendship devoid of sexual tension. Over time (years) their friendship does deepen into love and they get married... but it happens between books. By book two they're married and relatively settled. (Well as settled as a tribal warrior family can be.) Will the reader (especially a female reader) feel "cheated" that I skipped over their romantic development? I know I personally wouldn't mind (the Star Wars prequels would have been greatly improved if the Padme/Anakin thing happened between movies instead of on the screen), but my perspective is limited.



You know, don't take this the wrong way, but I'm sorta getting the feeling you are simply not very confident in your ability to portray a realistic romance. That is, you're worried you'll end up being George Lucas going on about how the girl isn't like sand. I mean, this isn't really the best example to use. 

Keep in mind we are talking about a guy who uses corny dialogue and wooden acting on purpose, because he likes it that way. You're going to have to be pretty terrible to compete with that. 

Anyway, to adress your story: If their relationship did feel entirely platonic in the first part, I think a lot of readers would call What The Hell on that and feel cheated. That's a ton of character development you basically just skipped over because you didn't feel like writing it. I hope you can see why your readers might have a problem with that.

Still, you have to _really_ go out of your way to establish a relationship between a man and a woman as platonic, really spell it out, because otherwise people will see the potential of romance between them. In fact, some may do that anyway. (See above: Shipping.) 

My advice is to at least try to imply a budding romance between the two. You don't have to have them yell "I love you!" at each other or anything. Just, you know, show them growing closer; have them make small diplays of affection and admiration to one another, and let us know that they are actually heading into romance territory.


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## Ireth (Apr 22, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> If you don't want a subplot focusing on your MCs falling love, you certainly don't have to. But if nobody in your story _ever _shows any romantic inclinations whatsoever, readers might see that as a flaw in your writing. It may come across as unrealistic, even a bit juvenile in a "I don't want any touchy-kissy-girly feelings in my awesome adventure story!" kind of way.



But what if romance simply doesn't factor into the story one wants to tell? To take an example from one of my own novels: two of the main characters are a pair of middle-aged brothers who are searching for the younger brother's kidnapped daughter. The older brother, Dom, is a bachelor: the younger, Vincent, is a widower. On the course of their quest they come across a prominent female character who helps them. Neither of the men have any attraction to her, though they do acknowledge her as beautiful, and she does not harbor attraction to either of them.

By your logic, then, my story might seem "flawed" because neither of the men nor the woman wants to bonk or even steal a kiss from a member of the other sex. They are strictly focused on finding Vincent's daughter; even if they did feel that way, they don't have TIME for anything else. The three of them are only together for a few days during the second half of the book, which would not be enough time for a real romance to develop. Even though the book does take place in Faerie, I'm not writing a fairytale. The whole point of the main plot is that Faerie and the Fae are largely not nice and sparkly like so many authors would have one believe.


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## Mindfire (Apr 22, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> You know, don't take this the wrong way, but I'm sorta getting the feeling you are simply not very confident in your ability to portray a realistic romance. That is, you're worried you'll end up being George Lucas going on about how the girl isn't like sand.



Yeah, that's pretty much it. lol Thanks for your help.


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## studentofrhythm (May 3, 2012)

I'm glad I'm not the only one considering skipping this.  My first draft of my current novel had a scene where two characters confessed their love for each other and I think it was ridiculous.  I start the second draft after they're already married with children.

Also, I was going to have a big part of the plot focus on the MMC's failed relationship with a girl who runs off with a cult, and decided to drop it.  The two current main characters do have plenty of reasons to be very attracted to each other, and maybe it's mostly trollishness that has me looking for ways to defy the expectation of their intellectually-based friendship (they're fellow students) turning into a romance.  Thing is, she is very attractive according to their culture's standards, and he notices it.  I thought about making him asexual, but his aunt already is, so unless asexuality runs in families I don't think I can get away with that.  There's already a gay character and I'm not into writing many of those, sorry.


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## Mindfire (May 3, 2012)

studentofrhythm said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one considering skipping this.  My first draft of my current novel had a scene where two characters confessed their love for each other and I think it was ridiculous.  I start the second draft after they're already married with children.
> 
> Also, I was going to have a big part of the plot focus on the MMC's failed relationship with a girl who runs off with a cult, and decided to drop it.  The two current main characters do have plenty of reasons to be very attracted to each other, and maybe it's mostly trollishness that has me looking for ways to defy the expectation of their intellectually-based friendship (they're fellow students) turning into a romance.  Thing is, she is very attractive according to their culture's standards, and he notices it.  I thought about making him asexual, but his aunt already is, so unless asexuality runs in families I don't think I can get away with that.  There's already a gay character and I'm not into writing many of those, sorry.



My personal philosophy is that you should never feel obligated to include or dis-include anything based on audience expectations. And I sympathize with your desire to troll. xD


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## Aravelle (May 3, 2012)

I'm female [obviously] and I gotta admit... I like my romance in fantasy stories. I would feel somewhat cheated, HOWEVER I could forgive it. :x If you can't write it, you can't write it. I think romance is just one of the nice aspects of fantasy; a perk but it doesn't necessarily focus on it.


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## rhd (May 14, 2012)

Strangely one of my favorite authors isn't great at sex scenes (Le Guin), but in The Dispossessed she talks about sex and bonding in the most logical and deeply philosophical terms without eliminating the human aspect, how language can be effected perceptions of sex between races etc, and it melds consistently with her style in the entire book, which I highly recommend. On the other hand there's the Latin American authors like Laura Esquivel and Isabel Allende and Gabriel Garcia Merquez who are pretty good at their sex scenes/romance and its doesn't kill the rest of their book when they put them in there. There characters are volatile and deeply passionate so the sex/romance fits right in. I'd say it's to do with style too, your readers might not be expecting a steamy Harlequin romance-like scene in the middle of your work, its shouldn't stick out like a sore thumb. Both Esquivel and Allende leave little to the imagination but their scenes flow pretty smoothly.
I'd say this, practice helps. Sex scene/romance if dealt with clumsily can ruin a book for a reader who is expecting more. So if unsure, work on it, if you don't want to then don't put it in there. Just say they had sex last night may be, the after-scene is less annoying than a clumsy during-scene. I for one worked on mine because I don't believe in three pages describing 'non-sex', like almost kiss but don't sexual tension, it's a bit dishonest. I personally dislike squeamishness, unless you're dealing with a squeamish character. I'd say treat sex like any other aspect of being a writer, like if you're bad at it or don't know anything about fight scenes, then work on it. Read up on weapon/less martial arts, on history, on battles, on strategies of famous conquerors, it might not be as mind-boggling as one thinks.
In addition, comparing body parts to fruit/vegetables is a bad idea.


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## The Dark One (May 14, 2012)

Good post rhd.

However I disagree with one of your points - the almost kiss but don't sexual tension. Seriously, this is what happens in real life (not always, but quite a lot - certainly in my experience), but you mustn't just do it for the sake of the rising tension. There must be a compelling and believable reason for the interruption or the reader WILL feel ripped off.

I've earlier posted my personal rules for the construction of a good sex scene, but these are not rules I think about in planning such a scene, they are rules I've distilled from analysing my completed sex scenes. I don't plan them - they just happen as the characters compel me - but if those features are present the scene is likely to work.


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## rhd (May 14, 2012)

The Dark One said:


> Good post rhd.
> 
> However I disagree with one of your points - the almost kiss but don't sexual tension. Seriously, this is what happens in real life (not always, but quite a lot - certainly in my experience), but you mustn't just do it for the sake of the rising tension. There must be a compelling and believable reason for the interruption or the reader WILL feel ripped off.
> .



Yes, that detail. In fact Isabelle Allende makes this fantastic 'sexual tension' scene in her book Aphrodite (completely forgot about that) and she spares no detail about the climbing tension "Primitive forces have been unleashed:drums and panting of war: images of naked flesh, of cruel embraces, of engorged lances and carnivorous flowers." "they lift their goblets in a toast heavy with suggestion; for an instant their glances meet, and it is as if they had kissed. They are aflame, terrified before the devastating fury of their emotions" Lolz, its both funny and brilliant, the scene mounts to a crescendo but nothing happens, etiquette at a banquet table and all.


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## Kit (May 14, 2012)

I wrote a kick-ass sex scene in which the characters do nothing but play a flute duet. After I reread it, I wanted a cigarette.


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## Aravelle (May 15, 2012)

Ophiucha said:


> I think people value relationships more than, necessarily, romance. A relationship doesn't have to be romantic. Look at, for example, the TV show _Supernatural_. The primary relationship in that show is between two brothers. Not that half the fandom doesn't choose to interpret that as romantic, but the fact is, the show does fine without any long-lasting romances (indeed, the only recurring romances, one for each brother, were received _poorly _by the fans). People enjoy strong friendships, parental bonds, sibling bonds, and other _sorts_ of romantic bonds (such as pre-established couples), but because the mainstream media tends to focus so much on falling in love, I think we're sort of used to calling our love of close relationships "romance" because that's what it almost always is. Particularly in novels.
> 
> Personally, I find most "falling in love" plots to be a bit... shoe-horned in at the last minute. I mean, you read it once, and people falling in love on the battlefield is sexy and romantic. You read it eighty times, and you just start thinking: "Jesus, people, your friends are dying, have a shag tomorrow for goodness' sake."



^ Exactly what I meant to say, but couldn't find the words for.


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## Kit (May 15, 2012)

Well, there are valid psychological excuses for that. After disasters and losses, many people are driven to- er- celebrate life. Also, in circumstances such as those, one may not be quite in one's right mind or in an emotionally stable place- passions of all types can be inflamed.


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## Feo Takahari (May 15, 2012)

Thread hop: I'm not sure whether I understand the sort of romance I see in movies, and I definitely don't know how to write "sexual tension," but I've gotten positive responses when writing characters who have a friendly bond that may or may not involve occasionally having sex with each other. If you know how to write characters who like and respect each other, you know how to write at least one kind of romance.


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## Erica (May 17, 2012)

Ankari said:


> I don't mind love interests.  I do mind that every book that uses romance makes it so that it mirrors our present day lifestyle.  Most of our fantasy writing is based off of historical civilizations.



That's rather a broad statement. I would have to say that most of the fantasy I read, and the fantasy I am writing is set in fantasy worlds that do not parallel any particular time or place in 'real life' history and where attitudes and norms about things like the role of women in society may be more 'modern' in some ways. There's nothing wrong with trying to make a world and the romances 'traditional' if that's what you want to do. But I tend to relate more to situations where women are allowed and expected to be sexual beings. And if the setting is in a 'traditional' or 'old fashioned' culture, I tend to relate most to characters who rebel against these things (not just sexually). I suppose that's because I'm a product of my own time and culture, but there you have it.

I've read and enjoyed plenty of novels that do not have a 'love interest' that develops for the main characters, or where the 'love' takes place in the background. I don't tend to read novels that are romances first and foremost, but to me, a spanking good romantic subplot is the icing on the cake in a story. It can be a romance between a husband and wife, between two men or two women, a couple of mature adults or between a couple of free spirited young people. It doesn't have to involve stereotyped things like love triangles, though at some point, there will probably be an obstacle that the lovers have to overcome to be together.

Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic, but I think that love is quite simply one of the best things in the world and it can often be the harbor in the storm for people who are dealing with difficult situations. Maybe I feel this way because I've been lucky in love and have spent the past 20 years madly in love with a man who is also my best friend, but I think a good love relationship can bring out the best in someone.

And romantic subplot doesn't have to mean steamy sex scenes (though those can be fun if well written). You can have satisfying romance and romantic tension with no overt sex scenes ... or no sex at all even.


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## Cassia (May 27, 2012)

I am most definetly the youngest person here...I despise love scenes. Maybe like a kiss or something but no more  it ruins the entire book for me!    So I say that you don't need love scenes.  This is fantasy, not romance fiction


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## Aravelle (May 28, 2012)

Cassia said:


> I am most definetly the youngest person here...I despise love scenes. Maybe like a kiss or something but no more  it ruins the entire book for me!    So I say that you don't need love scenes.  This is fantasy, not romance fiction



Romance can enhance the story, much like action. They're both like spices added in a soup or sweet. You can have more than a kiss and maintain a legitimate fantasy story.


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