# Male love interest or female companion?



## Jabrosky (Oct 29, 2013)

The story I am writing has a female protagonist who pairs up with another individual on her quest, but I'm having a little debate in my head over whether I should make this supporting character male or female. I originally conceived of the second character as a male love interest for the heroine, but now I feel it would be more interesting if the story was about a platonic friendship between two female adventurers rather than the usual heterosexual couple. It would both please my pro-feminist impulses and convey the message that female characters don't need a male love interest in order to work as heroines.

On the other hand, since I am a straight male myself, keeping the male love interest would mean I get to write a sex scene. Truly this is a difficult conundrum.

There is a third character joining the party, but s/he is supposed to be a fat and elderly mage and therefore wouldn't work as a love interest, and I want to keep the party size below four individuals.


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## BWFoster78 (Oct 29, 2013)

Wow, you certainly approach the construction of your story differently than I do.

What kind of story do you want to tell?  Do you want romantic elements or do you want a story about buddies?  I'm not sure anyone else can answer that for you.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 29, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Wow, you certainly approach the construction of your story differently than I do.
> 
> What kind of story do you want to tell?  Do you want romantic elements or do you want a story about buddies?  I'm not sure anyone else can answer that for you.


Right now I'm more inclined towards the second option (buddy story), and maybe that is what I will go with in end. I just posted this thread because I thought the concept of a female buddy story was so cool I wanted to share it.

And how do you construct your stories anyway?


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## Feo Takahari (Oct 29, 2013)

I'm voting male, because I don't see a lot of well-written male sidekicks in stories starring women. Whether or not the story's marketed as a romance, the guy tends to be the same "I'll help you if I don't kill you" archetype that was so infuriating in _Twilight_. Still, whether they're friends or lovers is a product of their interactions--don't force a romance if they function better as friends.


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## Mindfire (Oct 29, 2013)

Far be it from me to question your motives but... no, actually that's exactly what I'm going to do. You seem to be making this decision solely based your desire to be pro-feminism versus your lust for writing sex scenes. (Pun very much intended.) But... why? I won't deny that author preferences play a big role in shaping the story but there is such a thing as going overboard, which can make your work come off as preachy... or creepy. But an even more pertinent concern is that approaching the issue this way blinds you to other possibilities which might suit the story better. For example: a platonic friendship between a man and a woman.


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## BWFoster78 (Oct 29, 2013)

> And how do you construct your stories anyway?



Generally, I start with a character and a situation and just start writing.  If my character encounters someone along the road, I'm as surprised as the reader about who it's going to be.  Though, I tend to dig a heavy romantic element in my stories, so that usually pops up.  I'd never give consideration to whether I somehow needed more males or more females or whatever.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 29, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> Still, whether they're friends or lovers is a product of their interactions--don't force a romance if they function better as friends.


What if they're both physically attracted to each other and want to have sex?



BWFoster78 said:


> Generally, I start with a character and a situation and just start writing.  If my character encounters someone along the road, I'm as surprised as the reader about who it's going to be.  Though, I tend to dig a heavy romantic element in my stories, so that usually pops up.  I'd never give consideration to whether I somehow needed more males or more females or whatever.


At the time I made the OP, I was working with an outline for this story.  However, now I've thought more about what I've written so far in the story proper, I feel like it'll deviate from my plan to a significant degree. In fact I don't even know if these two characters will even meet anymore.


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## Mindfire (Oct 29, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> What if they're both physically attracted to each other and want to have sex?



That sounds suspiciously like an excuse to shoehorn in a sex scene for no reason. Again, _why_?


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## Steerpike (Oct 29, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> That sounds suspiciously like an excuse to shoehorn in a sex scene for no reason. Again, _why_?



Why not? A sex scene serves character development and adds an erotic element to the story. Those are really the only reasons ever to have one dramatized, and they seem to me to apply just as well here as anywhere else.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 29, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> That sounds suspiciously like an excuse to shoehorn in a sex scene for no reason. Again, _why_?


I write what I like, and I like to see sexy ladies in action. Is that a problem?


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## Mindfire (Oct 29, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Why not? A sex scene serves character development and adds an erotic element to the story. Those are really the only reasons ever to have one dramatized, and they seem to me to apply just as well here as anywhere else.



In what way can a sex scene serve character development that a non-erotic scene can't? 



Jabrosky said:


> I write what I like, and I like to see sexy ladies in action. Is that a problem?



See, that is the kind of rationalization that comic book artists use when they make things like this:








But then again, I tend not to be pro-fanservice, so whatever.


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## Steerpike (Oct 29, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> In what way can a sex scene serve character development that a non-erotic scene can't?



I didn't say you couldn't do it with a non-erotic scence; it's just one way to do it, and as legitimate a way to do it as with a non-erotic scene if that's the direction you want to take the story.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Oct 29, 2013)

Some people have a greater emotional connection to sex than others. That's something I've learned through maturity and experience.      

It's certainly legitimate to include scenes of sex if it serves the story. I see no difference in that choice or in choosing any other element of humanity. I can think of situations where character development might take place within a sex scene.       

Like it or not, sex is part of the human experience. It has a shaping effect on people and the world at large. I would never want to exclude the option of exploring such an important aspect of humanity through characters.   

If it's gratuitous, that's where the concern would lay.


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## Mindfire (Oct 29, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> If it's gratuitous, that's where the concern would lay.



That's what I was getting at. It seems gratuitous because so far Jabrosky hasn't given any reason for it besides "I like sexy ladies." Of course, he has every right to do this. But ideally there should be some intent and significance beyond pure fanservice.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 29, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> I write what I like, and I like to see sexy ladies in action. Is that a problem?



People have sex all the time, it's a part of life. There's nothing wrong with portraying it, but as with everything else in your story you need to have a reason for it.

I think the question really is: "What's the reason for adding a sex scene?"
If it's mainly because it adds depth to your characters and furthers the story in an interesting way, then by all means, go for it.
If your main reason for adding a sex scene is that you like some sexy lady action, then by all means, go for it, but expect potential readers to question the validity of your pro-feminist impulses.


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## Steerpike (Oct 29, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> That's what I was getting at. It seems gratuitous because so far Jabrosky hasn't given any reason for it besides "I like sexy ladies." Of course, he has every right to do this. But ideally there should be some intent and significance beyond pure fanservice.



I don't agree. It's just like a battle scene - people choose to dramatize those all the time, when they could just as easily be conducted off scene or in summary form. What are they adding, except an action element that the author likes? Similarly, an erotic scene adds a sexual element that the author likes. There's really no difference, and unless you want to question every action scene for whether it is gratuitous or not, it makes no sense to do so for sex scenes. Apart from including them because you like them and hope your reader will like to read it, they're both gratuitous in terms of dramatizing them. Getting hung up on this sort of thing isn't productive.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 29, 2013)

Svrtnsse said:


> PIf your main reason for adding a sex scene is that you like some sexy lady action, then by all means, go for it, but expect potential readers to question the validity of your pro-feminist impulses.


I don't see how advocating for gender equality necessarily precludes sexual portrayals of women as a whole. Just because my heroine is a kick-ass warrior queen doesn't mean she can't have sex appeal at the same time.


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## Steerpike (Oct 29, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> I don't see how advocating for gender equality necessarily precludes sexual portrayals of women as a whole. Just because my heroine is a kick-ass warrior queen doesn't mean she can't have sex appeal at the same time.



It doesn't. In fact, the idea that you can't show women freely engaged in sexual behavior runs counter to gender equality.


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## Mindfire (Oct 29, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> I didn't say you couldn't do it with a non-erotic scence; it's just one way to do it, and as legitimate a way to do it as with a non-erotic scene if that's the direction you want to take the story.



From the perspective of the story, the sex is not nearly as important or interesting as the moments preceding it and the cause/effect chain of events that follow it. These are the plot relevant parts and where the meat of character development lies. Description of the sex act itself serves little purpose other than titillation, or perhaps humor if the author has such inclinations. So you could say that all sex scenes are always gratuitous... from a certain point of view.


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## Steerpike (Oct 29, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> From the perspective of the story, the sex is not nearly as important or interesting as the moments preceding it and the cause/effect chain of events that follow it. These are the plot relevant parts and where the meat of character development lies. Description of the sex act itself serves little purpose other than titillation, or perhaps humor if the author has such inclinations. So you could say that all sex scenes are always gratuitous... from a certain point of view.



You could say the same thing about action scenes. Also, the level of interest or importance attached is your subjective opinion, and one which not all readers or writers share.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 29, 2013)

I have always thought the problem came in when you _reduced _women to reproductive purposes, as if they could not contribute to society in other meaningful ways. I am not sure how people got the idea that any images of women intended to be sexually attractive are inherently oppressive. I'm guessing someone got the two issues confused and it became a meme from there.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 29, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Getting hung up on this sort of thing isn't productive.



This is correct, and yet it happens.
There was an article here on the site recently where someone (I'm pretty sure it was CageMaiden) wrote about how writing intimate/romantic scenes and how it could be approached much like writing a fight/battle scene. The principle is pretty much the same.

However... in our culture, sex is a lot more taboo than violence. Which is why this kind of discussion keeps popping up. It's not primarily about logic and reasoning, but about cultural attitude and perception. Much as a reasoned and logical approach to the matter would be preferable, we don't live in a reasoned and logical society (as far as these matters are concerned). I believe that that's something that needs taking into account.


Something similar happened here on the forums a while back. Someone (I think it was Jabrosky actually) asked about portraying a character as racist. The character in question would treat the MC in a very racist way and he wondered if that would be okay. In the thread where the question was asked most people seemed to think it was fine. After all, the character was being portrayed as racist and it wasn't the author advocating racism. This made perfect sense.
Then when the actual story was posted in the showcase someone almost right away made a comment about how the story was racist and it would have been blacklisted in their country.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that there's more than logic and reasoning to account for.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Oct 29, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> It's just like a battle scene - people choose to dramatize those all the time, when they could just as easily be conducted off scene or in summary form. What are they adding, except an action element that the author likes? Similarly, an erotic scene adds a sexual element that the author likes. There's really no difference, and unless you want to question every action scene for whether it is gratuitous or not, it makes no sense to do so for sex scenes. Apart from including them because you like them and hope your reader will like to read it, they're both gratuitous in terms of dramatizing them. Getting hung up on this sort of thing isn't productive.



This is a good point. For my own writing though, I don't include any scene that doesn't serve the story in some way (at least I don't think I do). Battles, sex, romance, whatever...they all have a story purpose. 

Certainly, character development and/or depiction serves the story. That should be reason enough for including any scene, regardless of content (sex, violence, etc.).


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 29, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> I don't see how advocating for gender equality necessarily precludes sexual portrayals of women as a whole. Just because my heroine is a kick-ass warrior queen doesn't mean she can't have sex appeal at the same time.



Of course she can have sex appeal.
What I'm saying is that if you're flaunting that sex appeal without a reason for it people will react to it. Whether these reactions are logical or warranted is irrelevant, it's the reaction itself that matters. 



---
On the topic of violence vs sex I'd like to share this link:
ANYTHING BUT THAT - Scandinavia and the World


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## T.Allen.Smith (Oct 29, 2013)

Svrtnsse said:


> Of course she can have sex appeal. What I'm saying is that if you're flaunting that sex appeal without a reason for it people will react to it. Whether these reactions are logical or warranted is irrelevant, it's the reaction itself that matters.  --- On the topic of violence vs sex I'd like to share this link: ANYTHING BUT THAT - Scandinavia and the World



The reasons to do so are pretty easy to come by though. If it fits the character, it's what she does.


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## Chessie (Oct 29, 2013)

Jabrosky, write what your intuition tells you. Part of being into all of this is that we get to explore our horizons, right? If your gut is telling you to write the story one way, then go with that. Our gut doesn't steer us wrong. I'm glad you asked this question because its important for all of us to remember to trust in ourselves...in all areas of life, but especially in writing our stories.

In the story I am planning for NaNo, the protagonist is a female. I also think that strong female protagonists are lacking in fantasy and I want to approach it differently. Her sidekick is a male. It just felt natural because of all that's going to happen. At first, I thought just like you. Oh shit, if he's a male then they have to have sex.

Um...no. Nothing HAS to happen, only what seems natural to the development of the characters. One of my problems with modern day fantasy is that the sex is hyped and detailed. It takes all the romance and special aura out of it. But I'll write a good romance scene with sexual undertones if I must...and I do enjoy it. But I also like to think of giving privacy to the characters. 

Why don't you brainstorm with both male and female second roles and see which feels better? Don't worry about all the sex stuff. Part of the reason why my protagonist's sidekick is male is to show the beautiful balance of Yin and Yang when working together on a problem. Boys and girls approach things differently. And to spice up the story, it felt right to add in that they had a recent past together...and all of the sudden now they are stuck in the middle of nowhere with this mutual problem...and there is strong sexual friction there. So don't be afraid to roll with wherever the characters want to take you. Trust yourself.


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## Mindfire (Oct 29, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> I don't agree. It's just like a battle scene - people choose to dramatize those all the time, when they could just as easily be conducted off scene or in summary form. What are they adding, except an action element that the author likes? Similarly, an erotic scene adds a sexual element that the author likes. There's really no difference, and unless you want to question every action scene for whether it is gratuitous or not, it makes no sense to do so for sex scenes. Apart from including them because you like them and hope your reader will like to read it, they're both gratuitous in terms of dramatizing them. Getting hung up on this sort of thing isn't productive.



I'd say a difference would be that an action scene can further the plot in and of itself, whereas a sex scene only furthers the plot by what happens _because_ of it.

EDIT: OMG LOOK AT ALL THE NINJAS!


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## T.Allen.Smith (Oct 29, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> I'd say a difference would be that an action scene can further the plot in and of itself, whereas a sex scene only furthers the plot by what happens because of it.



I fail to see the distinction. A sex scene has just as much potential to further plot.

What if the woman got pregnant? That's just one possibility of how the act could impact plot...removed from the act itself. There's so many other possibilities as well.


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## Mindfire (Oct 29, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I fail to see the distinction. A sex scene has just as much potential to further plot.
> 
> What if the woman got pregnant? That's just one possibility of how the act could impact plot...removed from the act itself. There's so many other possibilities as well.



Yes, but that happens after or as a consequence of the act, not during it (unless you want to get really technical). Which was precisely my point.


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## Chessie (Oct 29, 2013)

^^ True, but isn't pregnancy considered as a sort of cop-out when it comes to plot development? Although I like the idea of it I have only used it once because of this. Although I would love to hear your take on it, T.Allen.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 29, 2013)

Chesterama said:


> Jabrosky, write what your intuition tells you. Part of being into all of this is that we get to explore our horizons, right? If your gut is telling you to write the story one way, then go with that. Our gut doesn't steer us wrong. I'm glad you asked this question because its important for all of us to remember to trust in ourselves...in all areas of life, but especially in writing our stories.


I would agree with this as a general principle, but what if your gut has contradicting impulses? That often happens to me.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 29, 2013)

During both sex and battle the participants are (presumably) caught up in the heat of the moment.
In a sex scene you could play up the male character's concern for getting the female pregnant and that could probably make for quite an interesting scene, but it would probably take away some of the passion from the hot sexy action.
In a fighting scene you can play up the character's concern for getting their head chopped off and it would probably increase the tension in scene in a good way.


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## Mindfire (Oct 29, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I fail to see the distinction. A sex scene has just as much potential to further plot.
> 
> What if the woman got pregnant? That's just one possibility of how the act could impact plot...removed from the act itself. There's so many other possibilities as well.


To elaborate, a sex scene's effects on the plot occur outside the scope of the physical act itself. Pregnancy, shotgun marriages, love triangles, emotional bonding, STIs- these are all things that happen _as a consequence_ of the sex. Not _within_ it. By contrast, what effects could an action scene have on the plot? Characters can be injured, captured, or killed, plot threads can be resolved or begun, enemies can be defeated, alliances can be forged, friendships can grow out of previous rivalry, and these are all things that can happen _during_ the course of the action scene, not merely _because_ of it. This is why I suggest that an action scene is interesting as an event, whereas a sex scene is interesting because of its aftershocks.



Svrtnsse said:


> During both sex and battle the participants are (presumably) caught up in the heat of the moment.
> In a sex scene you could play up the male character's concern for getting the female pregnant and that could probably make for quite an interesting scene, but it would probably take away some of the passion from the hot sexy action.
> In a fighting scene you can play up the character's concern for getting their head chopped off and it would probably increase the tension in scene in a good way.


Again, precisely my point. Even the ways in which one could make the event of sex itself plot-important detract from the ostensible reason of having a sex scene in the first place, which is not true for action scenes. I don't think the two are equivalent.


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## Chessie (Oct 29, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> I would agree with this as a general principle, but what if your gut has contradicting impulses? That often happens to me.


It doesn't have contradicting impulses. You're confused as to what to do, is all. Is this for your NaNo story? Let it rest for a day, then come back to this subject fresh. The idea that feels stronger is usually the one.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 29, 2013)

Chesterama said:


> It doesn't have contradicting impulses. You're confused as to what to do, is all. Is this for your NaNo story? Let it rest for a day, then come back to this subject fresh. The idea that feels stronger is usually the one.


It's not my NaNo story, but you may have a point about giving the subject some rest.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Oct 29, 2013)

Chesterama said:


> ^^ True, but isn't pregnancy considered as a sort of cop-out when it comes to plot development? Although I like the idea of it I have only used it once because of this. Although I would love to hear your take on it, T.Allen.


I wasn't touting the use of pregnancy as a plot device. Rather, I was illustrating the most obvious point where sex could influence plot.



Mindfire said:


> Characters can be injured, captured, or killed, plot threads can be resolved or begun, enemies can be defeated, alliances can be forged, friendships can grow out of previous rivalry, and these are all things that can happen during the course of the action scene, not merely because of it.



All of these things could happen within a sex scene as well.


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## Mindfire (Oct 29, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> All of these things could happen within a sex scene as well.



But then it's not a sex scene anymore. It's a scene where sex is interrupted, or a scene where sex might be happening in the background, because now the sex is no longer the focus.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Oct 29, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> But then it's not a sex scene anymore. It's a scene where sex is interrupted, or a scene where sex might be happening in the background, because now the sex is no longer the focus.



That's only the way you've imagined it.   

Now you're making minute definitions of what is & isn't a sex scene? Seems unproductive.   

If there's sex in the scene, it's a sex scene. Does it matter if it's interrupted with violence or if it strengthens, or creates, a bond?   

The sex can certainly be the focal point, as much or as little as a battle, if the author intends it as a focus.  

Does the rivalry pushed aside in a battle not have the potential to overtake the focus during the fight? Of course it does.


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## Steerpike (Oct 29, 2013)

Mindfire:

None of what you're saying here makes a bit of sense. You've created these artificial distinctions in your mind to arrive at the viewpoint you want, and then everything else is just a rationalization to support it. The considerations you mention for sex and action scenes are the same, even though you try to cast them as different. People can be wounded (physically or emotionally), alliances made, betrayals taking place, and so on. In both cases, the after effects are more significant to the story than showing the acts. In both cases, you show the acts to bring the reader more fully into the dramatization, and to allow them to engage with the emotions created. 

You're trying so hard to rationalize your point of view that you aren't even thinking this through anymore, you're just discounting what everyone says and rushing to the next false distinction to try to make your point.


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## Feo Takahari (Oct 29, 2013)

On the one hand, I have absolutely no problem with showing the sexual interactions of two lovers. I believe that you can build a great deal of character in the ways they touch and pleasure (or fail to pleasure!) each other, and in how their patterns and rituals change as their relationship grows. On the other, Jabrosky, you have a history of excessively concentrating on the physical aspects of characters to the detriment of their inner lives. I suspect that you'd make the sex entirely physical and forget the emotional element. 

Jabrosky, I challenge you to write a complete story about a completely nonsexual female character. Once you've done that, I think you'll be able to write a beautiful and loving sex scene, as opposed to just cattle-prodding the oyster ditch with the lab rocket.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 29, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> On the other, Jabrosky, you have a history of excessively concentrating on the physical aspects of characters to the detriment of their inner lives. I suspect that you'd make the sex entirely physical and forget the emotional element.


No offense, but this sounds exactly like something my mother would say. She complains that I fixate too much on the physical aspects of sex and relationships.



> Jabrosky, I challenge you to write a complete story about a completely nonsexual female character. Once you've done that, I think you'll be able to write a beautiful and loving sex scene, as opposed to just cattle-prodding the oyster ditch with the lab rocket.


I don't get your oyster ditch and lab rocket metaphor.


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## Mindfire (Oct 29, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> No offense, but this sounds exactly like something my mother would say. She complains that I fixate too much on the physical aspects of sex and relationships.


Have you ever considered that she just might be on to something?



Jabrosky said:


> I don't get your oyster ditch and lab rocket metaphor.


That's okay. Neither did I.


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## Mindfire (Oct 29, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> The considerations you mention for sex and action scenes are the same, even though you try to cast them as different. People can be wounded (physically or emotionally), alliances made, betrayals taking place, and so on. In both cases, the after effects are more significant to the story than showing the acts. In both cases, you show the acts to bring the reader more fully into the dramatization, and to allow them to engage with the emotions created.



This is where we don't see eye to eye. In the case of the action scene, I believe the story would be injured by not showing the event itself taking place whereas in the case of a sex scene the story can move along just as efficiently and with as much satisfaction even if the act of sex itself is not described. I agree that the description of action makes the story more engaging. I do not see how the description of sex (which, as an aside, has potential for awkwardness in a way that describing fighting doesn't) necessarily makes the story more interesting or engaging. This is a function of my upbringing, no doubt, but it is my honest opinion.


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## Steerpike (Oct 29, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> This is where we don't see eye to eye. In the case of the action scene, I believe the story would be injured by not showing the event itself taking place whereas in the case of a sex scene the story can move along just as efficiently and with as much satisfaction even if the act of sex itself is not described. I agree that the description of action makes the story more engaging. I do not see how the description of sex (which, as an aside, has potential for awkwardness in a way that describing fighting doesn't) necessarily makes the story more interesting or engaging. This is a function of my upbringing, no doubt, but it is my honest opinion.



Yeah, I get that, I'm just pointing out (as you note in your last sentence) that it's just a personal feeling on the matter. There is nothing inherent in action or sex scenes that makes that viewpoint necessary, and so there's no reason an author shouldn't pursue one or the other (or both) if his own viewpoint differs. I can certainly see people not liking one or the other, but really it just comes down to personal preference and not something inherently wrong with an author's decision to use these types of scenes.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Oct 29, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> I believe the story would be injured by not showing the event itself taking place whereas in the case of a sex scene the story can move along just as efficiently and with as much satisfaction even if the act of sex itself is not described. I agree that the description of action makes the story more engaging.



I've read great stories that omit the action of actual battle. One in particular that  comes to mind, resumed the story on the battlefield strewn with the dead & dying, the immediate aftermath, if you will, yet it never depicted the fighting.


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## Sam Evren (Oct 29, 2013)

Maybe write a little scene both ways. Audition your supporting characters, so to speak. See which one you actually enjoy working with more. If you're still not sure, lengthen the audition.

In the end, I think you need to go with whichever you're happier working with---or maybe the off-candidate gets to make a cameo at some point?


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## Ireth (Oct 29, 2013)

I'm not sure if this has been addressed or not, but is there any particular reason the male companion HAS to be a love interest? Why not let it be a platonic friendship?


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## Jabrosky (Oct 29, 2013)

Ireth said:


> I'm not sure if this has been addressed or not, but is there any particular reason the male companion HAS to be a love interest? Why not let it be a platonic friendship?


I created him in the first place precisely so I could have my sex scene. Now of course it's possible for two characters to have sex without being in a long-term relationship---come to think of it, a one-night-stand situation may not be such a bad idea after all. I could have a heroine who's sexually active but doesn't bother with marriage or traditional romance. Monogamy is overrated anyway.

Or rather, it doesn't have to be the only option.


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## Chessie (Oct 29, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> as opposed to just cattle-prodding the oyster ditch with the lab rocket.


Oh goodness, this caused me tears of laughter. Hilarious. 

But back to the topic, I like Sam Evren's idea of auditioning the supporting characters. Maybe write a separate scene for each of them with the heroine and see where that takes you.


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## hots_towel (Oct 29, 2013)

this was something that I was curious about with my own story. There isn't really a MAIN character, so much as there are 4 main characters. 1 of which was female, but I really didn't imagine the other three all vying for her attention. So i thought of ways to eliminate them all but 1. I made one of them her cousin (yes, I realize its set in a medieval time period, but being that this is the modern age, not many people would imagine them getting together.) The other is her grandfather. That only leaves one, and I really didnt want to do the whole "do they like eachother, or are they just friends?" thing. Its a little played out in my opinion. So i decided to make them already together as a betrothed couple, to eliminate any needless leading on of the audience.


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## Chilari (Oct 30, 2013)

Ireth said:


> I'm not sure if this has been addressed or not, but is there any particular reason the male companion HAS to be a love interest? Why not let it be a platonic friendship?



Is there any reason the female companion has to be just friends? Why not have a lesbian relationship?

On second thoughts, maybe not.

On a more serious note, I'm frankly a bit bored with having female characters in fantasy always having sex. Like, there's almost never a female character written by a male author who doesn't have sex at some point with someone. Considering the societies they've been brought up in, in the absence of the Pill pregnancy is a serious issue and a single mother tends, at least in lower class pre-modern society, to be unable to support herself and her child without childcare help from family and friends - there was a reason single motherhood and thus sex before marriage were shunned - it wasn't sustainable in a family- (as opposed to community-) orientated patriarchal society that didn't have welfare provision in place, and would likely result in death or extreme poverty for the mother and child.


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## BWFoster78 (Oct 30, 2013)

> Considering the societies they've been brought up in, in the absence of the Pill pregnancy is a serious issue



It seems like, in every series I've read where sex becomes an issue, there is always "an herb" that serves the purpose if there's no magical way to prevent her from getting pregnant.

Though you raise valid points, my thought is that this is fantasy, not historical.  I can invent whatever solution I want to solve that kind of problem as long as I do, in fact, address the potential problem.


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## Chilari (Oct 30, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> It seems like, in every series I've read where sex becomes an issue, there is always "an herb" that serves the purpose if there's no magical way to prevent her from getting pregnant.
> 
> Though you raise valid points, my thought is that this is fantasy, not historical.  I can invent whatever solution I want to solve that kind of problem as long as I do, in fact, address the potential problem.



The "herb" thing does get a bit old after a while, it's just too convenient. I mean, I know such things existed in the past - and in fact in the case of one herb used in ancient Rome became extinct as a result of overharvesting the wild herb and not farming it. But for a lot of the past, such methods were not so easy to get hold of. One method I used for a story I was writing a while ago involved charmed dragon scales worn as jewellery which also protected against STDs - yes, convenient, but necessary for the story. I do like to see innovative ways of getting around the issue, but I'd like to see a whole lot more "I don't want to get pregnant, so marry me first if you want it and if that's not for you, find someone willing to take the risk". Surely people weren't incapable of saying "no" in the past? But they seem to be in fantasy.


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## BWFoster78 (Oct 30, 2013)

> The "herb" thing does get a bit old after a while, it's just too convenient.



This seems to be a personal preference issue.  I don't have an issue with it.

Should authors jump through hoops to try to come up with an original concept when there's an easy, well-accepted solution right there?  I think those people who love world building would probably say, "Yes!"  I'm more of the opinion that, if it's not a major story element, just throw in the accepted cliche.



> I'd like to see a whole lot more "I don't want to get pregnant, so marry me first if you want it and if that's not for you, find someone willing to take the risk". Surely people weren't incapable of saying "no" in the past? But they seem to be in fantasy.



Is your objection just personal preference or because the way it's portrayed isn't in line with what happened historically?

I think that modern culture in general portrays both men and women as likely to have casual sex.  I'm not sure it's a bad thing to have your fantasy novel reflect modern society to a great extent.


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## Feo Takahari (Oct 30, 2013)

Chilari said:


> Surely people weren't incapable of saying "no" in the past? But they seem to be in fantasy.



I actually did read a book once where the girl said no. Chapter 1 was about the hero defeating the ancient evil and marrying the princess, and the rest of the book was about what happened next. The princess wanted to have children eventually, but not just yet, and the hero didn't push the issue. I've never seen that anywhere else, though (not counting stories where it only lasts until the climax.)


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## SmokeScribe98 (Oct 30, 2013)

I'd suggest having a lesbian relationship but from the way you have been describing what you desire I'm not entirely sure that its a wise idea.


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## Chilari (Oct 30, 2013)

My problem with characters very rarely saying "no" is that, I guess, it's assumed everyone has sex in fantasy stories, often in spite of societal and technological/herbological reasons not to. Once you've got a male character and a female character of similar ages who aren't married, it's inevitable that they'll have sex in a fantasy story. Well, that's a load of bull, especially when no abortifacent is available or societal structure is highly patriarchal. It's bad enough that nobody seems to consider that female characters can have entirely platonic relationships with male characters - there's always one they fall for and it drives me mad to see the same situation time and time again. It's often not plot-relevant too, but rather fanservice, fulfilling the imaginations of adolescent boys. This happens even in books written by experienced writers. And if she doesn't willingly, she gets raped. It demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of female sexual considerations (which are more complex than lust vs pregnancy or slut vs prude). In fantasy, though, it seems like every female character has almost identical sexual drives, or at least fall into very rigid criteria - the romantic who waits, the slut who doesn't or the out-of-bounds woman who is either too young, too old or too closely related to characters to be involved in sex (and too old seems to be 30 in fantasy).

You never get "actually, I don't feel like it, I'm not in the mood" or "I'm just not that into you" or even the nervousness, fear, uncertainty and reluctance some real women have even when they are sexually active. You don't get women who don't think the fun is worth the pain (and if it's been a while, there is some pain).

Fantasy sex scenes are almost invariably, in what I've read anyway, fanservice for male readers and as such very much idealised - even when fumbling and nervous - and never all that realistic, very rarely accurately portraying the female experience of sex. I've had enough of them.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Oct 30, 2013)

I'm going to suggest something other than a sexual relationship of either orientation.  Have you considered a same-sex mentor? A female protagonist with a female mentor is something I'm currently writing in my solo project. It's turned out to be a favorite within the story.    

A sexual relationship could always develop but if you start with the mentor relationship, you'd be free to grow in that direction if you choose. Once you begin with sex, you're a bit more limited.

Of course, it all comes down to what you, as the author, wants.


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## BWFoster78 (Oct 30, 2013)

> Once you've got a male character and a female character of similar ages who aren't married, it's inevitable that they'll have sex in a fantasy story.



I think we're reading vastly different fantasy stories... 

Seriously, besides some of the kind of behavior in WoT, I have a hard time thinking of a series where this was handled in the way that you described.


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## Chilari (Oct 30, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I think that modern culture in general portrays both men and women as likely to have casual sex.  I'm not sure it's a bad thing to have your fantasy novel reflect modern society to a great extent.



Fantast absolutely can portray modern values and society, but it needs to do so through the filter of the world and society the story takes place in, or it feels out of place. The problem with sex scenes as that all too often they don't portray modern society, they portray the male-perspective ideal of modern society's attitudes towards sex, and not the reality, which is complex and nuanced, without taking into account the fictional world it takes place in, so it really does feel particularly jarring.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 30, 2013)

I believe that both Jim Butcher (Dresden Files) and Ben Aaronovich (Rivers of London) do pretty well with the depiction of the relationship issues of their respective main characters. That said, both series are contemporary/urban fantasy and the actual sex scenes are more just references to the fact that sex happened than detailed descriptions of the action.
As far as sex goes they're probably not all that interesting, but as far as male writers doing believable relationships from a male main character perspective, they're pretty good.

I can't think of any male writer describing a believable relationship from a female main character perspective at the moment. I'm sure there are some out there, I just can't think of any at the moment.


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## Chilari (Oct 30, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I think we're reading vastly different fantasy stories...
> 
> Seriously, besides some of the kind of behavior in WoT, I have a hard time thinking of a series where this was handled in the way that you described.



A lot of Gemmell's books, particualrly the earlier books, have a token woman in her twenties who inevitably has sex with one or other of the male heroes. One exception is Hero in the Shadows, where the female lead is raped in the first chapter and never again has sex, but Waylander does hire a prostitute at one point, a scene that adds almost nothing to the story. The only other women in the story are a genetically engineered bear-woman priestess and a minor older lady married to a bad guy - both "off-limits". Only "off-limits" women don't have sex - as described in a previous post, those too young, too old, or related to the only available male characters. Or, you know, genetically engineered were-women.

I have read other novels with the same sort of attitude, but can't think of them off the top of my head. Maybe it's more a generational thing, not so common now as it was 30 years ago, but I've seen it enough to be thoroughly bored of it.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 30, 2013)

This whole discussion has thrown me into another state of confusion over what I want in my story. On the one hand, I'd love my female protagonist to appeal to women, but on the other hand I am still a straight guy with raging hormones. I thought that sexy female warriors would appeal to both genders since they embody feminist ideals and male desires at the same time, but now I see a very tricky balance between appealing to women and appealing to men.


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## Ireth (Oct 30, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> This whole discussion has thrown me into another state of confusion over what I want in my story. On the one hand, I'd love my female protagonist to appeal to women, but on the other hand I am still a straight guy with raging hormones. I thought that sexy female warriors would appeal to both genders since they embody feminist ideals and male desires at the same time, but now I see a very tricky balance between appealing to women and appealing to men.



Speaking as an asexual woman, sexy female characters who are put in books for no other purpose than to bang the hero do not appeal to me at all. The male lead in my latest WIP does have a female love interest, and it's implied that they do have sex. But that aspect of their life is downplayed (the most they've done in the text so far is kiss), and the woman in question also has a life outside of being the hero's girlfriend; she's first and foremost the chief healer in her Queen's castle, and she does accomplish plot-relevant things while the MC is off doing other things. She even -- gasp -- goes for some time without thinking about him. Likewise, the male MC has at least two platonic female friends, who also have their own roles in the plot and do not end up as secondary love/lust interests.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 30, 2013)

Ireth said:


> Speaking as an asexual woman, sexy female characters who are put in books for no other purpose than to bang the hero do not appeal to me at all. The male lead in my latest WIP does have a female love interest, and it's implied that they do have sex. But that aspect of their life is downplayed (the most they've done in the text so far is kiss), and the woman in question also has a life outside of being the hero's girlfriend; she's first and foremost the chief healer in her Queen's castle, and she does accomplish plot-relevant things while the MC is off doing other things. She even -- gasp -- goes for some time without thinking about him. Likewise, the male MC has at least two platonic female friends, who also have their own roles in the plot and do not end up as secondary love/lust interests.


Thing is, the main female character in my story is the protagonist rather than in a supporting role. I will admit one reason I write and draw female characters so much is because I like their sex appeal, but by virtue of being the protagonist, my heroine will do more than have sex of course.


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## Ireth (Oct 30, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> Thing is, the main female character in my story is the protagonist rather than in a supporting role. I will admit one reason I write and draw female characters so much is because I like their sex appeal, but by virtue of being the protagonist, my heroine will do more than have sex of course.



Noted. But from the way you've described your story intentions so far, it seems like the exact same issue, only with the genders reversed. Does that male character contribute to the story aside from the sex scene? Does his personality match well enough with the heroine's for them to even consider having sex in the first place, or are they driven to it by hormones alone? What will you do if, by nature of characters developing on their own as they're written, you find that they just aren't sexually compatible? I would hope you don't shoehorn in a sex scene that doesn't fit the story just because it's what you want to write. That's where things start getting gratuitous.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 30, 2013)

Ireth said:


> Noted. But from the way you've described your story intentions so far, it seems like the exact same issue, only with the genders reversed. Does that male character contribute to the story aside from the sex scene? Does his personality match well enough with the heroine's for them to even consider having sex in the first place, or are they driven to it by hormones alone? What will you do if, by nature of characters developing on their own as they're written, you find that they just aren't sexually compatible? I would hope you don't shoehorn in a sex scene that doesn't fit the story just because it's what you want to write. That's where things start getting gratuitous.


To be honest, he isn't terribly important to the story otherwise (except maybe to fatten up the word count). You may be right, I could stand to cut him out.


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## Steerpike (Oct 30, 2013)

To some extent, doesn't "gratuitous" always encompass a given readers comfort level or preference? Any time you have a sex scene, you're writing a different story than if you had written the same novel without that sex scene. Invariably, you're going to get some characterization out of it, if nothing else. So it seems to me you just have to trust your instincts and write what you want (or what you'd want to read if you were the reader) and not fixate too much on whether a level of sexuality or violence or anything else will put someone off.


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## saellys (Oct 30, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> Description of the sex act itself serves little purpose other than titillation, or perhaps humor if the author has such inclinations. So you could say that all sex scenes are always gratuitous... from a certain point of view.





Mindfire said:


> I'd say a difference would be that an action scene can further the plot in and of itself, whereas a sex scene only furthers the plot by what happens _because_ of it.



I strongly disagree. There are writers who write abysmally bad sex scenes, and writers who write multiple sex scenes which all look the same (which I think is what you're envisioning here), and plenty of writers who write sex scenes which tell us utterly nothing about the characters involved, and writers who do all three of those things at once. It doesn't have to be that way. 

A sex scene can convey all kinds of things about a character that can't otherwise be shown in anything but clumsy exposition. The juxtaposition between the act itself, and what a character is thinking during that time, can be quite evocative. Previous sexual experiences come into it, and it can be an interesting angle to write a brash and handsome young knight who's only ever been with one person in the past, or a righteous paladin with loads of conquests. Does the encounter make the character question their sexuality? Is there an imbalance of social status in the relationship that compels one partner to be submissive, or even make it a situation of dubious consent, and does the other notice or care? Do they speak to each other, and if so, what do they say? Are they emotionally invested, or driven wholly by the physical, or just going through the motions because it's the eve of battle and the body's got needs? 

And that's just the internal, mental/emotional side of things. The level of detail an author puts into description of the physical act can be just as telling. Who's on top, if anyone, who penetrates who, if anyone, and I'll stop there lest this post get deleted for explicitness. 

Point is, maybe a sex scene won't be a pivotal moment in a plot, but it sure can say a ton about the people involved. It can also be beautifully and uniquely written, and enjoyable to read on multiple levels. Provided they aren't identical every instance and don't just become the Heterosexual Male Gaze objectifying female characters, I am fully in favor of as many sex scenes as possible in fantasy, and literature in general.

For whatever it's worth, Jabrosky, I cast my vote for a female companion. There aren't enough platonic lady friends roaming through fantasy worlds together.


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## Ireth (Oct 30, 2013)

That's true, Steerpike. But I think there's a line between "author appeal" and "gratuitous X, Y or Z." To take examples from my own stories, I write a lot about Fae and vampires, which is my own "author appeal". But if I were to put either of those into a story about sapient wolves living on another planet, to me that would cross the line into gratuitousness. IMO, from the authorial perspective, it's partly a matter of whether something enhances the story that's already there or just clings to it without adding anything meaningful -- like the difference between fur on a cat and fur on a fish. Obviously it'll be a bit different from the reader's side of things.


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## NellaFantasia (Oct 30, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> This whole discussion has thrown me into another state of confusion over what I want in my story. On the one hand, I'd love my female protagonist to appeal to women, but on the other hand I am still a straight guy with raging hormones. I thought that sexy female warriors would appeal to both genders since they embody feminist ideals and male desires at the same time, but now I see a very tricky balance between appealing to women and appealing to men.



I'll go ahead and give my opinion on this. Take it for what it's worth.

The sexy female warrior has been shoved into my face all over the entertainment world in comics, video games, literature, and movies for years, and no, it doesn’t appeal to me (a woman). If you’re looking to appeal to us, then gives us real women, not eye candy meant for men. Make us strong, sure, but give us strong personality traits instead of perfectly toned bodies. Allow us to have sex, but realize there’s a difference between viewing women as people with sexual desires and viewing women as objects of lust.

Give us real women. Women who scrape and crawl through the mud to get where they need to go. Women who don’t give up. Women who make mistakes, fall and try again. Women who fight for their families, for their people, for their countries. Women who have as much power in their words as they do in their swords. Women who sacrifice for what they believe in. Women who are over forty because their lives aren’t only worthwhile when they’re younger.

I’m tired of women in tight, revealing clothing kicking a man’s ass with a flirtatious smirk. I want to see a woman in full armor, whatever that may be, covered in sweat and grime and blood with scratches and wounds, smelling and hair a mess because it shows what she’d had to overcome to achieve victory. Because it shows the blood she’s lost, the blood she’s taken, and how many times she fell to the ground and got back up.

I don’t give a damn about a sex scene. I don’t give a damn about a sexy character. That doesn’t make me feel empowered. A woman who struggles and overcomes whatever it is her obstacles may be (sexy or not), THAT’S what a strong, empowered woman is.


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## Steerpike (Oct 30, 2013)

@Ireth:

Well, the... :redcarded: *successful check to resist urge to comment on analogy*

I think that's all true, Ireth. I suppose what I'm saying is that the line is entirely dependent on individual perception. There is really no objective analysis of what is gratuitous, but just the reader's feelings about something that make it seem gratuitous or not. Does that make sense?


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## Ireth (Oct 30, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> I think that's all true, Ireth. I suppose what I'm saying is that the line is entirely dependent on individual perception. There is really no objective analysis of what is gratuitous, but just the reader's feelings about something that make it seem gratuitous or not. Does that make sense?



Indeed it does.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Oct 30, 2013)

NellaFantasia said:


> I'll go ahead and give my opinion on this. Take it for what it's worth.  The sexy female warrior has been shoved into my face all over the entertainment world in comics, video games, literature, and movies for years, and no, it doesn't appeal to me (a woman). If you're looking to appeal to us, then gives us real women, not eye candy meant for men. Make us strong, sure, but give us strong personality traits instead of perfectly toned bodies. Allow us to have sex, but realize there's a difference between viewing women as people with sexual desires and viewing women as objects of lust.  Give us real women. Women who scrape and crawl through the mud to get where they need to go. Women who don't give up. Women who make mistakes, fall and try again. Women who fight for their families, for their people, for their countries. Women who have as much power in their words as they do in their swords. Women who sacrifice for what they believe in. Women who are over forty because their lives aren't only worthwhile when they're younger.  I'm tired of women in tight, revealing clothing kicking a man's ass with a flirtatious smirk. I want to see a woman in full armor, whatever that may be, covered in sweat and grime and blood with scratches and wounds, smelling and hair a mess because it shows what she'd had to overcome to achieve victory. Because it shows the blood she's lost, the blood she's taken, and how many times she fell to the ground and got back up.  I don't give a damn about a sex scene. I don't give a damn about a sexy character. That doesn't make me feel empowered. A woman who struggles and overcomes whatever it is her obstacles may be (sexy or not), THAT'S what a strong, empowered woman is.



I notice you have Monzcarro Murcatto as your avatar...a fitting choice & a great female character.  

If anyone wants a good example of a female character who is real, whose attitudes towards sex, & use of femininity or violence show a willingness to do whatever is necessary....look no farther than Abercrombie's "Best Served Cold" protagonist.


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## Steerpike (Oct 30, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I notice you have Monzcarro Murcatto as your avatar...a fitting choice & a great female character.



And Abercrombie uses the sex scenes in that book to good effect, in my opinion.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Oct 30, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> And Abercrombie uses the sex scenes in that book to good effect, in my opinion.



Precisely, and she shatters the damsel in distress model. The sex she's involved in is very telling of her character and the lengths she will go to.


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## NellaFantasia (Oct 30, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I notice you have Monzcarro Murcatto as your avatar...a fitting choice & a great female character.
> 
> If anyone wants a good example of a female character who is real, whose attitudes towards sex, use of femininity or violence, & a willingness to do whatever is necessary....look no farther than Abercrombie's "Best Served Cold" protagonist.



Absolutely


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## Jabrosky (Oct 30, 2013)

NellaFantasia said:


> I’m tired of women in tight, revealing clothing kicking a man’s ass with a flirtatious smirk. I want to see a woman in full armor, whatever that may be, covered in sweat and grime and blood with scratches and wounds, smelling and hair a mess because it shows what she’d had to overcome to achieve victory. Because it shows the blood she’s lost, the blood she’s taken, and how many times she fell to the ground and got back up.


Has it ever occurred to you that a woman can be sexy eye candy in one part of the story and "covered in sweat and blood" in another? Why do your kind always treat these things as mutually exclusive?

Everyone who said I should go with my gut instinct and write whatever I want was right. I think excessive conscientiousness about feminism and pleasing certain demographics is doing me more harm than good.


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## Steerpike (Oct 30, 2013)

Let's stay away from 'your kind' types of remarks, regardless of viewpoint, however. Arguing the subject matter and not the persons involved tends to result in better discourse


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## T.Allen.Smith (Oct 30, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> Has it ever occurred to you that a woman can be sexy eye candy in one part of the story and "covered in sweat and blood" in another? Why do your kind always treat these things as mutually exclusive?  Everyone who said I should go with my gut instinct and write whatever I want was right. I think excessive conscientiousness about feminism and pleasing certain demographics is doing me more harm than good.



When you ask for opinions, that's what you'll get. This is someone's opinion on what they'd like to see. Isn't that basically what your poll asks? Wasn't that the point these posts have made, by yourself and others?

In the end, you should write what you'd like to read. I'd never argue that point. However, if you're going to ask people what they'd want to read, people's choices are bound to differ from yours. Accept their thinking, or reject it and move on.

The lesson here should be: Write what you want, not what another likes.


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## NellaFantasia (Oct 30, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> Has it ever occurred to you that a woman can be sexy eye candy in one part of the story and "covered in sweat and blood" in another? Why do your kind always treat these things as mutually exclusive?



I'll try to explain myself more clearly. The "eye candy" bit in my post was in reference to female characters specifically created in order to attract the male audience sexually. That's her role and she has no other. Female characters can certainly be sexual and beautiful and a good representation of women. As others have pointed out, my avatar, Monza Murcatto, is one such character.


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## Feo Takahari (Oct 30, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> Has it ever occurred to you that a woman can be sexy eye candy in one part of the story and "covered in sweat and blood" in another? Why do your kind always treat these things as mutually exclusive?
> 
> Everyone who said I should go with my gut instinct and write whatever I want was right. I think excessive conscientiousness about feminism and pleasing certain demographics is doing me more harm than good.



I've noticed that you tend to assume there's some evil conspiracy to either eliminate all sexual content in fiction, or convert it all into sex with ugly people, stamping out all other sex. On one occasion, I successfully criticized how you write women and actually got you to listen, but every other time I've seen someone criticize how you write women, you've attributed motives to the person criticizing you that connect with this conspiracy.

I am a writer of pornography. I find sex to be a fascinating subject, and I portray it in almost all its forms. I have no anti-sex agenda, and yet I have criticized your approach to sex, and you admitted I had a point. Doesn't it follow that other critics may similarly be worth listening to?


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## Jabrosky (Oct 30, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> When you ask for opinions, that's what you'll get. This is someone's opinion on what they'd like to see. Isn't that basically what your poll asks? Wasn't that the point these posts have made, by yourself and others?
> 
> In the end, you should write what you'd like to read. I'd never argue that point. However, if you're going to ask people what they'd want to read, people's choices are bound to differ from yours.


One of my numerous character flaws is that I can barely wrap my head around the reality that people have different tastes from myself. Even if I recognize on an intellectual level that it is all right for other people to have opinions that contrast sharply with my own, my gut instinct tells me that there's something wrong with them. I am not sure if it's some psychological quirk I have or if that's a common human failing. It could be symptomatic of my lifetime difficulty with comprehending that other individuals have thoughts and feelings separate from my own (what some psychologists call the "theory of mind"). Anyway, I do apologize for the "your kind" remark.



NellaFantasia said:


> I'll try to explain myself more clearly. The "eye candy" bit in my post was in reference to female characters specifically created in order to attract the male audience sexually. That's her role and she has no other. Female characters can certainly be sexual and beautiful and a good representation of women. As others have pointed out, my avatar, Monza Murcatto, is one such character.


Thank you for the clarification.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Oct 30, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> One of my numerous character flaws is that I can barely wrap my head around the reality that people have different tastes from myself. Even if I recognize on an intellectual level that it is all right for other people to have opinions that contrast sharply with my own, my gut instinct tells me that there's something wrong with them. I am not sure if it's some psychological quirk I have or if that's a common human failing. It could be symptomatic of my lifetime difficulty with comprehending that other individuals have thoughts and feelings separate from my own (what some psychologists call the "theory of mind"). Anyway, I do apologize for the "your kind" remark.  Thank you for the clarification.



Let me address this from a perspective of "writer to writer".

We pen stories. Those stories are the events that surround characters, and how those happenings affect characters. 

In my opinion, if you want to create varied & realistic characters, you need to develop a willingness to reach out beyond your own personal outlook. Yes, some of our own makeup, what constitutes our belief systems, will undoubtedly creep into our stories. However, when it comes to our portrayal of characters, we must be able to step into another's shoes, to view the world from another perspective or point of view. It's method acting of a sort, at least for me. 

There are things my characters do that I could never condone in my real life. Does that mean I shouldn't write about them? I hope not. Literature based only on projections of ourselves would result in boring, one-dimensional characters who offer no distinction from one to the next. You're far better off treating each character like a full person with desires, dislikes, motives, and fears all of their own, unique to them within that story. 

After all, stories at their root are about conflict. The best conflicts, in my view, result from differences in character, where neither side can be truly seen as right or wrong. One's choice regarding right and wrong are merely a matter of perspective. Differing perspectives are understandable, and therefore far more powerful.

Embrace the differences in the world. Try to understand why people believe what they believe, especially those ideologies that differ from yours. You'll be a better artist for the effort.


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## NellaFantasia (Oct 30, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> Anyway, I do apologize for the "your kind" remark.



Thanks for the apology


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## Mindfire (Oct 30, 2013)

feo takahari said:


> i've noticed that you tend to assume there's some evil conspiracy to eliminate all sexual content in fiction



Oh crap, we've been discovered! INITIATE PROTOCOL 10! INITIATE PROTOCOL 10!


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## Steerpike (Oct 30, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> we've been discovered! Initiate protocol 10! Protocol 10!



Mindfire, you fool! Are you trying to kill us all? It's protocol 12 you want. I repeat, protocol 12!


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