# Writing an Outline?



## Devora (Sep 27, 2012)

I'm thinking of doing an outline for my stories in order to have more consistency and to better the storyline. 

Any advice and pointers you can give on approaching and creating an outline?

How do you organize your outline?


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## Jess A (Sep 27, 2012)

Best advice I can give is to leave room for change and improvisation. 

I have a very loose outline, but I am now beginning to realise that I need to make a 'scene list'. I don't need to write every point in the scene, but I need to say 'this is the conflict' and then go about writing it with that loose idea in my head. I say this because when I have sat down to write, it has not really gone in the direction that I want it to go. But I like to have room to improvise, too.

I outlined the major concepts of the book, and I have most of book two outlined. 

One thing that may help you is a time line. It can help with character ages as well. Finding out what age they will be at a certain point. You don't necessarily need to describe everybody's age, but for you as a writer, it can be helpful. A time line can tell you the basics of what is happening at what point, and it can limit plot holes and confusion in some cases. The time line may go back to the birth of your main character, or further back. I find this stuff invaluable. It may not work for everybody, and very little of it would ever get into the story, but it gives me a good reference point when I am writing or plotting and planning. How detailed you do it is up to you. I only really use years - unless it's to do with pregnancy/birth times, then I need to go into months. 

An example might be (for a random medieval story):

Year 1000: Current King is born.
Year 1010: Main character is born.
Year 1011: War breaks out.
Year 1030: Character is 20 years of age. Character meets the love of his life, the woman who is to marry the King.
Year 1031: Woman marries King but he is evil (oh no).
Year 1031: Character goes on super cool quest to save the woman.
Year 1032: King has a child.
Year 1035: War ends with a peace treaty. Character is caught up in it somehow.

You probably won't be writing these as scenes. It's meant to be a guide so that you can fit in the relevant scenes and so that you know how old people are or where they fit in to the greater events of the world. 

A scene list for me (I haven't written one before except for film so this may be a poor example) might be:

Years 1030-1031

Scene 1: Character meets the woman, and she doesn't like him. It's at a market place and there is a dragon involved.
Scene 2: He goes off to sulk and meets some sub-character. The sub-character is a slave he frees.
Scene 3: Woman goes home and is revealed to be a princess. She is told by her father that the King wishes to court her. She leaves later and thinks about the boy she met before. Drama.
Scene 4: The dragon later eats the entire village. Chaos.
Scene 5: Character and sub-character meet an old wizard who tells them they need to take a ring to a volcano and melt it.


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## Zero Angel (Sep 27, 2012)

I'd say work from the general to the specific.

Start with big overarching goals or story arcs--what major things should happen in this novel and when should they occur relatively to each other is a good place to start.

Work your way in. Figure out how things fit together and where a move might suggest itself. Don't be afraid to use the "cut and paste" feature of Word or your wapuro of choice to rearrange things, but make sure you consider the consequences and benefits of a move and adjust accordingly. 

If you have an idea for a specific scene write it immediately and file it away into your outline (OneNote is great at letting you have links and so forth almost seamlessly and I can only imagine that it will continue to improve, but you can link files in Word and other wapuros relatively easily as well). 

(An example of this is that i have the final scene for my entire series written before I have the second book finished. In fact, I frequently write end scenes before the beginning ones. I generally write the scenes that interest me or call to me regardless of order and rely on my outlines and familiarity with the story to avoid continuity errors. My primary goal is for EVERY scene to eventually do this. If I can't write a transitional scene that calls to me, then there is something flawed or it better not be more than a handful of paragraphs. A lot of people have said that every sentence needs to hook the reader, but if that is true, then you DEFINITELY need every scene to hook them.)

At the specific end of the spectrum, if you have any extended scenes, it might be worthwhile to outline them as well whether you have them written or not. I especially do this with battles (and diagram the stages and actions of it out on paper), but I also will outline major political moments (senates and diplomacy and the like) as well as complicated scenes. 

As a final note, don't be afraid to have extra information in your outlines as well. For instance, in my books, I regularly have characters use bona fide spells, and although occasionally they will have names given by the characters, there almost always is an actual name and a description of the spell in my head, so I write this out on the outline when it occurs. I also keep track of other information such as kills, status of equipment, new friends/enemies, new monsters, etc.


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## Zero Angel (Sep 27, 2012)

Little Storm Cloud said:


> One thing that may help you is a time line. It can help with character ages as well. Finding out what age they will be at a certain point. You don't necessarily need to describe everybody's age, but for you as a writer, it can be helpful. A time line can tell you the basics of what is happening at what point, and it can limit plot holes and confusion in some cases. The time line may go back to the birth of your main character, or further back. I find this stuff invaluable. It may not work for everybody, and very little of it would ever get into the story, but it gives me a good reference point when I am writing or plotting and planning. How detailed you do it is up to you. I only really use years - unless it's to do with pregnancy/birth times, then I need to go into months.



I especially agree about the time line. In my main series, I have extensive time lines. I have a "broad" timeline that goes back 30 billion years and lists major events (cataclysms, extinctions, superwars, big bangs, risings of gods, etc) and then each story's location is placed on it. 

Then my series inside the series have their own timelines detailing what is going on throughout the series (both known and unknown). 

(By "series inside the series", I mean to say that my current main WIP is a multiverse on the order of Star Wars, WoW, Dragonlance, etc. There is a "main series" inside this multiverse, and then there are side series, prequel series, world forming series, etc.)


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## Butterfly (Sep 27, 2012)

I usually work from two outlines.

A brief basic overview of the whole story. The main events, twists, locations.

And more detailed outlines for each chapter, usually three chapters at a time, so I can connect all the necessary points of emotions, events, characters, and keep them consistent from one to the other. Helps to keep track of where I am and where I am going.

I also keep a note file, of things to go back and change as events unfold, a calendar of sorts, set to the story just to link everything together in its right place, and a spreadsheet of work done, and to do.


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## srcroft (Sep 27, 2012)

I've been yelled at by free form authors about this, but most real and traditionally published authors agree:
Create a Theme / Concept
Create an outline
   Create Scene / Chapter outline that reflects your plot point sand how you will get there
   Write 1 sentence to describe your chapter.
   Turn that into 1 paragraph
   Then 1 page
       Use that 1 page as your guide for your chapter details

Obviously this will help you cut things, simplify, or make more complex.

There are a few authors that are probably borderline idiot-savants that can just spit out words that are brilliant. Look at my signature -- concepts are easy, story telling is a gift, and writing is a craft.
The key is craft! Crafts take practice and expertise and hard work--just like anything. So your instinct to organize is right.

They can yell all they want, but as someone working on phd classes in lit/creative writing, I will say that it i their fear of putting in hard work and effort that makes them lash out at the idea of hard work. They want to believe that they gift of storytelling is enough and they stand out. Craft craft craft, become a wordsmith.


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## Jess A (Sep 27, 2012)

Zero Angel said:


> I especially agree about the time line. In my main series, I have extensive time lines. I have a "broad" timeline that goes back 30 billion years and lists major events (cataclysms, extinctions, superwars, big bangs, risings of gods, etc) and then each story's location is placed on it.
> 
> Then my series inside the series have their own timelines detailing what is going on throughout the series (both known and unknown).
> 
> (By "series inside the series", I mean to say that my current main WIP is a multiverse on the order of Star Wars, WoW, Dragonlance, etc. There is a "main series" inside this multiverse, and then there are side series, prequel series, world forming series, etc.)



I can see why you need an extensive time line. A lot of series are successful in using a universe to create various stories. I quite enjoy them.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 27, 2012)

> Crafts take practice and expertise and hard work--just like anything.



I couldn't agree more.



> but most real and traditionally published authors agree:



I have two disagreements here:

1. The implication (or at least leaving the statement open for inferrence) that "real" and "published" are linked.
2. The word "most."  It is my understanding that there are a good number of "real" authors who do not follow the steps you described.



> So your instinct to organize is right.



If he thinks he needs more organization, I think he probably does need the outline.  It can be quite helpful.



> I will say that it i their fear of putting in hard work and effort that makes them lash out at the idea of hard work.



I didn't completely follow your thinking here.  What I think you said is: Outlining is hard work.  Fear of hard work makes the anti-outlining crowd lash out at those who advocate outlining.

If I misinterpreted, my apologies.  If I didn't (in general essence at least), I'd like to offer a contrary viewpoint.

(At the risk of sounding like Steerpike) The creative process is unique to the individual.  It's hard to impose one methodology on everyone.  For myself, I doubt that I'll follow the same methodology for more than one book until I've written a dozen.

I'm not saying that outlining doesn't have its advantages.  It definitely does.  It's organized and efficient.  It helps you keep track of all the little details.  It focuses the writer on the all important story and character arcs.

Stephen King, in his very well-written and informative book, On Writing, says that whether you outline or follow another method is up to the individual.  There is no one right way to write.  I tend to agree with him.

I like the following concept:

Think of a genre, a character, and a significant situation.  Start writing.  See what happens.  The need to know what comes next drives your writing.  A lot of storytelling is intuitive.  Let your creative juices flow.

The second draft is where you bear down and make sure that your arcs make sense.  Of course, this is less efficient than outlining.  You have great potential to have to throw away a lot of material.  The upside is that you can produce some really good stuff this way.


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## Steerpike (Sep 27, 2012)

I certainly don't think outline is a necessity. I don't outline any of my short stories. For longer works, I use a very barebones, skeletal outline. In many cases a point on the outline might be a single word, just to remind me what that particular portion is meant to cover, and then I just write, many times without having a complete idea of where the scene is going.

The important thing is to do what works best for you. The degree to which writing needs to be organized ahead of time will vary from author to author.


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## Ankari (Sep 27, 2012)

I use Scrivener which allows for story-boarding.  I write out a paragraph of what I want each chapter to reveal, then go from there.  I will say that the outline/storyboard has made the story better.  I, as well as my alpha/beta readers have noticed a strong improvement.


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## Aosto (Sep 27, 2012)

I've been entertaining the idea of writing an outline. However, when I sit and dedicate a block of time to it I find myself empty. It seems the creative juices aren't flowing unless i'm actively putting my thoughts in prose. I have a general idea of where my story is going, but I like to be strung along. It's as if I'm the reader creating the story as I go. If a scene does not entertain me, then I re-write it. 
Yes, as a discovery writer, there are times I get stuck. I just walk away for a few day and come back. 
As for keeping track of information, I do take note of this as I go. Locations, names, ages, genealogies, this all gets written down as it's created in the story.


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## writeshiek33 (Sep 27, 2012)

first time i write on the fly with notes tthen use that i guild


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## Zero Angel (Sep 27, 2012)

srcroft said:


> Look at my signature -- concepts are easy, story telling is a gift, and writing is a craft.
> The key is craft! Crafts take practice and expertise and hard work--just like anything. So your instinct to organize is right.


I'm not saying I disagree with anything you've said, but I don't think you get to quote yourself 



Aosto said:


> I've been entertaining the idea of writing an outline. However, when I sit and dedicate a block of time to it I find myself empty. It seems the creative juices aren't flowing unless i'm actively putting my thoughts in prose. I have a general idea of where my story is going, but I like to be strung along. It's as if I'm the reader creating the story as I go. If a scene does not entertain me, then I re-write it.
> Yes, as a discovery writer, there are times I get stuck. I just walk away for a few day and come back.
> As for keeping track of information, I do take note of this as I go. Locations, names, ages, genealogies, this all gets written down as it's created in the story.


I'm a discovery writer also! But I outline out the wazoo. This is what keeps my discoveries in check. And this is why I also sometimes rush ahead and write scenes over a decade down the storyline. After figuring out what is going to happen later, I don't ask myself, "How can I make this happen?" but rather, "How can this happen?" the connotation is different even if the denotation is the same. On the one hand, an author asking how they can make this happen will probably have some contrivances; they run the risk of their plot being self-serving and having too many author "a-ha" moments as mentioned earlier. On the other, the author figures out a living, breathing world and sees what seems logical and makes sense and follows the world's natural path to the desired outcome, with some surprises (for the reader and the author) along the way.

At least, that's how I see it


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 27, 2012)

> they run the risk of their plot being self-serving and having too many author "a-ha" moments as mentioned earlier. On the other, the author figures out a living, breathing world and sees what seems logical and makes sense and follows the world's natural path to the desired outcome, with some surprises (for the reader and the author) along the way.



I'm afraid that I don't agree 100%, or, actually, do agree with what you said but have a quibble with what you said versus my perceived reality (should I add more qualifications, or do you think those suffice?).

If you follow the natural outcome, I agree that you don't risk the ah-ha moments.  However, I think that outlining does not eliminate that particular danger.  If I'm outlining, I can still think of an killer ending and then have to figure out how to get there.  Additionally, I can follow a natural outcome as a result of discovery when each scene leads me logically into the next scene.


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## Butterfly (Sep 27, 2012)

writeshiek33 said:


> first time i write on the fly with notes tthen use that i guild




My first draft is done, I also use it as a guide, but it is changing so much from the original, it may not be feasible to stick to the original draft.


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## Zero Angel (Sep 27, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> I'm afraid that I don't agree 100%, or, actually, do agree with what you said but have a quibble with what you said versus my perceived reality (should I add more qualifications, or do you think those suffice?).
> 
> If you follow the natural outcome, I agree that you don't risk the ah-ha moments.  However, I think that outlining does not eliminate that particular danger.  If I'm outlining, I can still think of an killer ending and then have to figure out how to get there.  Additionally, I can follow a natural outcome as a result of discovery when each scene leads me logically into the next scene.



No no no, I think it needs more qualifications  

...but I think that I agree with you. 

So I think that outlining _increases_ the chance of forcing contrived scenes on the reader, but one way you can avoid this is by asking "how can this happen" as opposed to "how can I *force* this to be what happens". Where I have changed the previous word "make" to the new boldfaced "force".


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 27, 2012)

Here's an interesting question to turn it around on you:

You've got a great plot and figure out the perfect ending.  To get there, however, you have to fudge it the tiniest little bit.  Say you have to have your character behave in an inconsistent manner.

Is it worth it to save your awesome ending?


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## Devor (Sep 27, 2012)

Zero Angel said:


> So I think that outlining _increases_ the chance of forcing contrived scenes on the reader....



Outlining lets you build a stronger story where all of those scenes are directed towards building to the ending.  I think it's far more contrived to write yourself into "nowhere," decide that the book needs to end, and then force things to come together in a way they were never building towards.

An outline can be three sentences.  It can be fifteen pages.  It should be flexible.  But I think, the more complex your story, the more you need to outline for it to work.  Not every story needs to be all that complex.  But Song of Ice and Fire?  Harry Potter?  Lord of the Rings?  All of those required an outline.  Absolutely.


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## Zero Angel (Sep 27, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> Here's an interesting question to turn it around on you:
> 
> You've got a great plot and figure out the perfect ending.  To get there, however, you have to fudge it the tiniest little bit.  Say you have to have your character behave in an inconsistent manner.
> 
> Is it worth it to save your awesome ending?



Not to me. But save it by imagining something that works. 

Or imagine a better ending that works.


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## Zero Angel (Sep 27, 2012)

Devor said:


> Outlining lets you build a stronger story where all of those scenes are directed towards building to the ending.  I think it's far more contrived to write yourself into "nowhere," decide that the book needs to end, and then force things to come together in a way they were never building towards.



I don't really define that as being either of the two choices (outline or freeform). That seems like freeform with radical imposition of author's will for no reason. But yes, if that is a third choice, then outline is better than that. I agree.


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## Aosto (Sep 27, 2012)

Devor said:


> Outlining lets you build a stronger story where all of those scenes are directed towards building to the ending.  I think it's far more contrived to write yourself into "nowhere," decide that the book needs to end, and then force things to come together in a way they were never building towards.
> 
> An outline can be three sentences.  It can be fifteen pages.  It should be flexible.  But I think, the more complex your story, the more you need to outline for it to work.  Not every story needs to be all that complex.  But Song of Ice and Fire?  Harry Potter?  Lord of the Rings?  All of those required an outline.  Absolutely.



I disagree with this. I've watched interviews with Martin and he expressed that his writing was mostly discovery writing. Jk Rowling may have done world building but also expressed that she just wrote.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 27, 2012)

I mostly do discovery writing.

I tend to outline what I wrote, not what I'm going to write.  Makes it easy to go back and make sure I'm keeping everything consistent.


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## Devor (Sep 27, 2012)

Aosto said:


> I disagree with this. I've watched interviews with Martin and he expressed that his writing was mostly discovery writing. Jk Rowling may have done world building but also expressed that she just wrote.



George Martin said he doesn't do a strict chapter by chapter outline, but I wasn't really suggesting that he needed to do something chapter by chapter.  There's been a lot of people advocating complete, directionless freeform, and that's mostly what I meant to be responding to.  Rowling and Martin know a lot about where their books are going before they start writing.


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## Aosto (Sep 27, 2012)

I think we have to look at the syntax in that the OP is using outline. Nearly all stories will start with an idea, if we go off that being classified as an outline then I would say everyone outlines. I think the question presented is along the lines of a strict outline, scene for scene and chapter for chapter. Either or,everyone is their own artist . Try it both ways and see what you prefer I say.


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## Devor (Sep 27, 2012)

Aosto said:


> I think we have to look at the syntax in that the OP is using outline. Nearly all stories will start with an idea, if we go off that being classified as an outline then I would say everyone outlines. I think the question presented is along the lines of a strict outline, scene for scene and chapter for chapter. Either or,everyone is their own artist . Try it both ways and see what you prefer I say.



I would say that an outline does have to be at least some sort of loose image of events late in the book to be called as much.  Once you have that image, the middle can kind of pace itself out as you work.


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## Jabrosky (Sep 27, 2012)

I definitely need a clear idea of where my story will go in order to finish it, but I don't always have to write the plot down on paper or a Word file in outline form. In fact I've completed several short stories with all the outlining done in my head. Sometimes I start a story knowing only where the first scene will take me, but once I finish that, the rest of the story unfolds in my head. This is especially true if I set up the main conflict early on.


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## FatCat (Sep 27, 2012)

I say whatever floats your boat, if an outline works for you, great! If not, well that's alright to. Just be aware of what does and does not work with you. I think some people may jump to either side and plant their flag and proclaim themselves as a outliner or a discovery writer, when in actuality they may find themselves somewhere in the middle. I'm more of a discovery writer myself, but that has led me into problems when I was working on my 'epiclyawesometrilogygame-changer'. I'm still doing non-outlined short stories, but when I embark on another novel I'm going to try some loose outlining and see if it helps.


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## Penpilot (Sep 27, 2012)

Christopher Mahaney said:


> Any advice and pointers you can give on approaching and creating an outline?
> 
> How do you organize your outline?



First I use Dan Wells' 7 point plot structure  plan bare bones stuff. Here's a youtube link. He explains it better than I could. Dan Wells on Story Structure, part 1 of 5 - YouTube

Second, a few metrics. A 100k novel will have between 40-50 scenes. If you do the math, fifty 2000 word scenes equals 100k words. If you use the typical 3 act structure, that means act one should have 10ish scenes, act two 20ish, and act three 10ish. 

Third know what type of scenes should go in each act. Here's how I think about it each act. I break act 2 into two parts. These are very generalized concepts, but do fit pretty much all stories. 

Act 1 - this is your set up. You introduce the before world that exists for the character before the story takes off into act 2. There's the infamous inciting incident that must take place. You want to introduce themes here too. And lastly the character must make a conscious choice to proceed into act 2.

Act 2 pt 1- This is to me the most fun part of the story. In a road movie it's were the characters hit the road and meet interesting people and do the most interesting things. In Star Wars it's when Luke enters the cantina, meets Han Solo, learns how to use the force, and fights Tie fighters. It's where the book blurb gets paid off. 

Mid Point - a very important spot. Something big happens here. It's either a big set back or a false victory.

Act 2 pt 2 - If the heroes suffer a big set back at the mid-point, this is where they dust them selves off, get back on the horse and make a plan on how to defeat their protagonist. If the hero achieves a false victory, this is where the bad guys regroup and kick the heroes off their pedestal forcing them to dust off and re-plan. 

Act 3 - The heroes at this point should have all the tools and information they need for victory. They make plans on how to achieve victory and those plans got to crap and they have to think on the fly using all that they've learned in order to win.

Hope this helps.


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