# Most Independent Comic book writers don't do enough.



## Annoyingkid (Sep 28, 2017)

Browsing the "Comic books and Graphic Novels" section of a certain writing forum, and their topic of how to write a comic book. The topic seemed funny to me. Some quotes I want to bring to your attention. They are from the same poster.

Moderator Note: Quote removed, we have to avoid posting content from other sites.

Wow even more difficult than "Ain't gonna happen".   Why is that then? Let's find out.

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The first thing to understand here is these guys aren't writing two hundred page epics. They simply can't afford it, as to hire an artist to do that would go into the tens of thousands of dollars if not more for a very uncertain return. So they're fundamentally writing short stories. They aren't dealing with the painstaking journey of learning the art of prose or illustration. Their work is in script form.

Here's what the same poster has to say about comic scripts, which everyone there agreed:

Moderator Note: Quote removed, we have to avoid posting content from other sites.

So these scripts are fairly loose, and you just have to "get the idea" to the artist. Sounds pretty mickey mouse to me, but he then says:

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Well of course not, he draws the stick men and paneling, before he does the script apparently. Maybe by "do the script" he means insert the dialogue, but he's trying to teach a forum how to write comics here, he should be more clear in what he's saying. But stick men is too much work for the other big poster in the topic, who replies as follows: 

Moderator Note: Quote removed, we have to avoid posting content from other sites.

I get that these guys can't draw, but rather than do a crude version of the character that has all the elements on there as they see it, instead they "gab" to the artist.

Even if he had the artistic ability to do rough drafts or "thumbnails", he recommends the artist do them anyway:

Moderator Note: Quote removed, we have to avoid posting content from other sites.

They say that as if raised tempers, and ego driven arguments are what's usual when working on these projects/writers.

Then he says this:

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So he's saying if an artist doesn't make his writing look better than it really is, then you're not being a team, you're just being a "follower". To his "lead". They're an artist for hire. Not your disciples mate.

So what _do_ they do? They have the idea - ideas are cheap, they make a short, loose script, expect the artist to improve it after an informal conversation, and expect the artist to do the concept design, action choreography and illustration with further arguments littered throughout.

Yet they act surprised that artists bail on them so much and consider it unfair that they aren't as highly regarded as prose novelists, artists, and screenplay writers.

I'd like to hear your views on the matter. It disheartens one to know that this is what's being taught on such a large forum.


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## FifthView (Sep 28, 2017)

I don't know. I feel odd responding to quotations without attribution or at least links to the relevant pages. But beyond that....

I have no real experience on that side of comics. As a reader of comics–something I've not done much in the last couple decades, by the way–I always felt that a large part of the storytelling was in the art. In fact, a lot of the dialogue and most of the written exposition came across as rather simplistic. Necessary, but simple. And a lot of my fascination was in seeing the story that was being told through the art. E.g., in one pane the superhero might be yelling only, "Stop! I will not let you leave!" which is great I suppose but the magical chains, lasers from eyes, hurled car really told the story of what was happening in that pane.

I would guess that the best comic writers already have a fairly clear vision of the visuals, and so the script would include stage direction for those bits: _[Devil Golem hurls a small Toyota truck, blocking Dr. Putty's exit through the door.]_ There might be more explicit directions for colors, Devil Golem's grimace, etc.

At the same time, I've occasionally encountered descriptions of collaboration, in interviews, in which comic authors have complimented and thanked the artists for adding even more than directed. The best collaborations seem to be between authors and artists who are able to work off the work of each other, heh. The author gives excellent direction but still leaves some room for creative "ad libbing" for the artist.

I'm not an artist, but if I were I'd resent being forced to do all the work, without direction. Heck, I might as well write my own story, in that case, and not use a writer. But then I'm the sort of worker that likes clear instruction and also some small space to add my own touches–when I'm working for another.


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## Annoyingkid (Sep 28, 2017)

Wasn't sure if you're allowed to link other writing sites here, but its How to write a comic

Absolutewrite---> Comics and Graphic Novels ---> How to write a comic.

All quotes are from the first 3 pages,


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## FifthView (Sep 28, 2017)

Ah, thanks.

On that first page, someone mentioned the detail Alan Moore used for his scripts. I don't know that extreme detail is necessary, but that correlates somewhat with my earlier thoughts.

Basically, the art in a comic book carries a lot of the weight for telling the story, so the writer should give as much thought and attention to those elements when giving direction to the artist. Maybe the most important details, depending on what the author finds most important for telling the story.

I can't imagine simple dialogue and bare description of action would be enough.


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## Devor (Sep 28, 2017)

If you're creating a comic book, webcomic, manga, or whatever from scratch, the artist is the only one who counts. That's it, that's all that matters.  One person has to write the story and do the art if the project is to work.

I have this idea for a comic book character about a villain who carries a gun. The first shot from the gun fires a computer chip that scan the location and sends back data to the second shot, which hones in on its target. The character is a mercenary who... you get the idea.

The thing is, no matter how I describe this character to an artist, one of two things will happen:

 - The artist will draw something, I'll nitpick it until it's perfect, and the whole episode puts tons of pressure on the artist.

 - The artist will do the bulk of designing the character, which minimizes my input as a writer.

^ Repeat this over and over again, and tell me that this is a working model for a team..... because it's not, not when the writing is a few hundred words and the art is panel after panel after panel.  The grunt work is 95% on the artist, so as the artist takes any creative control, the writer becomes redundant, and if the writer puts too much pressure on the artist, it's the artist's workload that increases.  Either way, the team is lopsided.

But wait, you say.  Marvel and DC comics are created by two-person teams, one the writer, one the artist.  Sure, that's true.  But _Spider Man_ is an established character.  If I said to an artist, "Draw spider man opening a can of soda," everybody knows what that's going to look like.  The creative input of the artist isn't as decisive as it would be for an original work.

Successful manga and web comics are usually written and drawn by the same creative person. That's just how it is.

I mean, never say never.  Maybe if the writer gives the artist enough creative freedom, _and also handles the business side of things_, like managing the website and social networks, you might have a case for a team. Or if the project isn't a pure webcomic, but say, an illustrated story, or something that similarly shares the workload. But an original comic is disproportionate towards the art, and works best when the artist is also the storyteller.


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## Annoyingkid (Sep 28, 2017)

Alan Moore works with established characters for the most part. People know the designs of Batman or whatever super hero he's working on. He is a good example of someone who realizes that if scripts is all you do, then you better do it impeccably. A mistake independent comic writers make is in copying how the writer at DC or Marvel does it. The same poster I quoted even says as much: 


> Given that thus far I've done horror, supers, humor and fantasy scripts, hopefully my style varies to suit the genre. But I take your point. The way I understand it, I tend to work in the DC method.



The DC method is for characters who are brand name icons who's world design is well known. A writer who's working on their own original idea can't get away with that and expect the artist to pick up the slack.  

 The thing is, artists aren't uncreative people, and ideas are cheap so if they wanted to they could make their own story and most probably do have their own baby on the side. Meaning what these writers represent to them is just upfront money. But these writers get the wrong idea and start to think the artist is as passionate about the writer's script as it's creator was and engage in a labour of love. When...no. That's what it is to the writer. That's not what it is to the artist. Things like choreography, world  design and character design step on the territory of the writer overtly and are disciplines in themselves. They're difficult, and if they don't pay the artist for each of these elements, they'll get generic garbage in return. And then they try to argue to change elements until they basically get a good design for free. That's not a good way to keep an artist from bailing.


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## skip.knox (Sep 28, 2017)

@Devor, of course there was a time when the audience in fact did not know what to expect Spiderman to look like. The artist (Ditko) and the writer (Lee) worked together on that. Same goes for Lee and Kirby on a bunch of projects. The same, for that matter, goes for the various iterations of Spiderman since Ditko. Or, to take a different example, Richard and Wendy Pini on Elfquest.

Not all comic books are team efforts; not all are solo efforts. It is an unusual medium in that respect.


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## Devor (Sep 28, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> @Devor, of course there was a time when the audience in fact did not know what to expect Spiderman to look like. The artist (Ditko) and the writer (Lee) worked together on that. Same goes for Lee and Kirby on a bunch of projects. The same, for that matter, goes for the various iterations of Spiderman since Ditko. Or, to take a different example, Richard and Wendy Pini on Elfquest.



I can't comment much on Elfquest.  But I mean, if Stan Lee is the example here, then we're back to that "impeccable" word above.


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## Penpilot (Sep 28, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> Not all comic books are team efforts; not all are solo efforts. It is an unusual medium in that respect.



The Walking Dead comic was created by a team. Kirkman owns the rights to the series and since issue 6 has paid someone to do the art. 

As for independent comic writers not doing enough, well, isn't that dependant on the individual? There are always going to be people in all walks of life who want someone else to do the bulk of the work and reap the benefits. 

I heard an interview with Neil Gaiman where he tells the tail someone saying to him they had this awesome idea for a story. He tells Gaiman that if he writes it, they'll share the profits. The idea, man travels back in time and kills grandfather. 

Just like in prose writing, there will be those who get it and those who don't. And I think that's pretty much par for he course.

As a writer, one has to be critical of all advice being presented on the internet. There is a lot of good advice, but there is also bad advice too. And IMHO part of being a writer is learning how to tell one from the other.


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## FifthView (Sep 29, 2017)

The Spider and the Fly: Al Nickerson: "Who Really Created Spider-Man?"

Interesting little story about Spider-Man's origin.

Apparently, Stan Lee gave the idea to Jack Kirby, who designed a character and did several story pages, but Lee didn't like the result:

_"’Nah, that’s not what I want, Jack.' I said, ‘Look, forget it. I’ll give it to someone else.’ So Jack said, ‘fine.’ It was nothing. We didn’t think that Spider-Man meant anything. And Jack had a million other things to do. So I said, ‘I’ll get somebody else.’ [Jack] said, ‘Sure.’ I thought Steve Ditko would be perfect for it. He drew people that looked like the kind of people you’d meet in the street, you know? So I gave it to Steve. And, oh man, was I ever right in picking Steve. He did a beautiful job."_​
...

_Ditko designed the Spider-Man character as we know him today. With Stan as editor and writer, Ditko became the artist and co-plotter on Spider-Man’s first appearance in AMAZING FANTASY #15 (1962), and then onto the following AMAZING SPIDER-MAN comic book series. Accordingly to "Steve Ditko- A Portrait of the Master" from COMIC FAN #2 (1965), Ditko explains things like this: "Stan Lee thought the name up. I did costume, web gimmick on wrist and spider signal."_​


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## FifthView (Sep 29, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> The thing is, artists aren't uncreative people, and ideas are cheap so if they wanted to they could make their own story and most probably do have their own baby on the side. Meaning what these writers represent to them is just upfront money.



Isn't there more to writing than simply dialogue and coming up with a story idea? There's plotting, non-physical character traits (personality, character-building), pacing, foreshadowing, and so forth. So beyond the potential money issue, I wonder whether some artists would like to work with writers who have mastered these other areas of storytelling. Why else forego simply writing the story themselves?



> But these writers get the wrong idea and start to think the artist is as passionate about the writer's script as it's creator was and engage in a labour of love. When...no. That's what it is to the writer. That's not what it is to the artist.



I wonder whether this is always the case. I do get the idea that an artist simply hired to put images to a story–but really, to story-tell with art–might have little interest beyond the business of selling art. It's like hiring an artist to design a cover for a book or to design an ad for the Sunday paper. I'm not in the business of comic books, so I can only speculate, but I wonder whether new writers trying to break into that business would be better off networking with new artists who are also trying to break into the business. Try enthusing that artist with a top-notch script, cool story ideas–and probably, allowing that artist to collaborate in these things, the freedom to be creative. (A la the Stan Lee-Steve Ditko example above.)  



> Things like choreography, world  design and character design step on the territory of the writer overtly and are disciplines in themselves. They're difficult, and if they don't pay the artist for each of these elements, they'll get generic garbage in return. And then they try to argue to change elements until they basically get a good design for free. That's not a good way to keep an artist from bailing.



But, if it's only a business transaction, hired art, then $$$ would be a good approach, as well as very detailed, top-notch scripts.

Plus, I wonder whether working out the character design and world design beforehand would be good, before jumping into the actual illustrations for the story. Trade some concept art back and forth, approve general designs and concepts for the design...then step back and let the artist handle any other small details not already addressed or provided in the script.


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## Devor (Sep 29, 2017)

@Fifthview,

Again, though, we have to take a second to split the established franchise and the new/original one.  If you're independent or just starting up, there might not be much, if any, money involved at the outset. If you're asking both people to take a risk, it's the artist who is taking the big risk of working on the writer's big vision. That's a tough sell.

At Marvel/DC, everyone gets paid for their time even if the comic doesn't get published. They have systems in place for that.


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## FifthView (Sep 29, 2017)

Devor said:


> @Fifthview,
> 
> Again, though, we have to take a second to split the established franchise and the new/original one.  If you're independent or just starting up, there might not be much, if any, money involved at the outset. If you're asking both people to take a risk, it's the artist who is taking the big risk of working on the writer's big vision. That's a tough sell.
> 
> At Marvel/DC, everyone gets paid for their time even if the comic doesn't get published. They have systems in place for that.



Yeah. However, I wonder whether true collaboration, rather than a client & service provider relationship, might be better for the writer trying to break into the business. A vision shared by artist and writer. 

I'm curious though about what comes after "Don't do this!" advice, heh. If you are just starting out, then what are some constructive, useful things to do, ways to approach the endeavor.

I've toyed in the past with the idea. A few years ago, I began to toy with Daz Studio for creating the images for comic panels, and I used Manga Studio to create the panels, dialogue bubbles, etc., importing the images I created with Daz Studio.  I spent three months just getting the first "chapter" for a story rendered and put together. I was surprised how well it turned out visually....but it was a great learning experience, because I realized after, about 13 pages, that the story was boring as hell, hah. (At least, those 13 pages were boring.) I don't know if I'll ever make the endeavor again.

I do think that being artist and writer is a viable approach, and from what I can see all comic strips and the vast majority of web comics are typically done by only one person. I've entertained the idea of limiting my scope, just doing a regular comic strip. A full-on comic book published regularly would be impossible for me probably, given the work involved. (Even though I've had a few years' more experience using Daz Studio at this point.)

Edit: Just to follow up on my own personal experience...There's also the example of Hollywood movies that look visually stunning but have horrible stories. Basically, I think a writer would need to pull his weight in that partnership, and maybe not all artists have the storytelling chops themselves. Obviously, for such a collaboration to work, each party would need to provide something necessary to the endeavor.


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## Devor (Sep 29, 2017)

FifthView said:


> A few years ago, I began to toy with Daz Studio for creating the images for comic panels, and I used Manga Studio to create the panels, dialogue bubbles, etc., importing the images I created with Daz Studio.



This would be my advice, actually.  Many of the most successful webcomics, at least, have very rudimentary art. If somebody is looking to break out as a comic book writer, I would suggest starting with DIY artwork, and focus on telling the story, and leveraging that story, as best as you can.


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## Penpilot (Sep 29, 2017)

Devor said:


> @Fifthview,
> 
> Again, though, we have to take a second to split the established franchise and the new/original one.  If you're independent or just starting up, there might not be much, if any, money involved at the outset. If you're asking both people to take a risk, it's the artist who is taking the big risk of working on the writer's big vision. That's a tough sell.
> 
> At Marvel/DC, everyone gets paid for their time even if the comic doesn't get published. They have systems in place for that.



With Marvel and DC, it's work for hire. The artist and writer get paid a fee and everything they creat belongs to the company. With an independent situation, writer and artist can share the the rights. Now like you said it's a risk, but if the writer finds an artist who believes in the project, it may be a risk worth taking for them. 

It's like investing in stock. You find something you believe in and maybe it will give you a nice return. And if the artist is lucky they can end up owning part of a money making property. It's not like an artist has to forgo a pay check to do an independent project. Most are fast enough to draw multiple books at the same time. 

And it's not just the writer who gets into situations like this. There are artist who can't write who need to hire or team up with writers. It's not as simple as write it yourself.

IMHO, In today's comics, art and artists have never been better. But I can't say the same for the writing. If anything there's a shortage of good writers. I swear if DC reboots their universe again, I'm going to have a cow.  Ahem....

I mean in the early 90s, a bunch of big named artists broke away and formed their own company, Image, with their own creations. Many found that it wasn't so easy a thing to do to write/produce etc. books on their own. They couldn't just focus on drawing anymore. The results were a mixed bag of good art with spotty writing. And few books came out on a consistent schedule.


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## Annoyingkid (Sep 29, 2017)

> FifthView said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't there more to writing than simply dialogue and coming up with a story idea? There's plotting, non-physical character traits (personality, character-building), pacing, foreshadowing, and so forth. So beyond the potential money issue, I wonder whether some artists would like to work with writers who have mastered these other areas of storytelling. Why else forego simply writing the story themselves?
> ...


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## Devor (Sep 29, 2017)

Penpilot said:


> With an independent situation, writer and artist can share the the rights. Now like you said it's a risk, but if the writer finds an artist who believes in the project, it may be a risk worth taking for them.



A typical 22 page comic has about 4 to 5 frames on every page, which comes to roughly 100 frames of artwork.

Howard, the webcomic writer on Writing Excuses, says that he does the writing for a week's worth of strips in just a few hours on Monday morning, and spends the rest of the week drawing.

A comic is a pretty big ask. I mean, partnerships happen, and they work. And artists do get on board for writing that they like.  But if you're a writer, and you're looking for an artist, and what you want is as art-heavy as a comic, that's a tough sell.


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## Queshire (Sep 30, 2017)

Hm..... Hey, Annoying, how much experience do you have with art or working on a cooperative creative project with somebody?


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## Penpilot (Sep 30, 2017)

Devor said:


> A typical 22 page comic has about 4 to 5 frames on every page, which comes to roughly 100 frames of artwork.
> 
> Howard, the webcomic writer on Writing Excuses, says that he does the writing for a week's worth of strips in just a few hours on Monday morning, and spends the rest of the week drawing.
> 
> A comic is a pretty big ask. I mean, partnerships happen, and they work. And artists do get on board for writing that they like.  But if you're a writer, and you're looking for an artist, and what you want is as art-heavy as a comic, that's a tough sell.



Howard Taylor is a weird case. He isn't a professionally trained artist. He's self taught, and I'm not entirely sure his abilities allow him to do anything but Schlock Mercenary. 

I don't claim to be an expert on this. All I can say is when I was younger, I wanted to be a comicbook artist. I spent six months at the local art institute after highschool exploring that possibility, so I do know a tiny bit about drawing--aside from knowing I'm not very good at it.

From what I remember, Jack Kirby could turn out three pages of comicbook in one day. This is before computers. I'm not familiar with the process using computers in comics now, but I bet the computers can make things a lot quicker. Also if someone wants to consistently put out a 22 page comic in a month, they need to churn out at least a page a day if they want their weekends off. 

So there's the general ballpark of how long it takes. 

Sure, it's a big ask, but so is asking someone to alpha or beta read a manuscript and give comments. But I don't hear a lot of people thinking its a big ask, or something unreasonable. 

For me, per 1000 words, to read and comment on a writing piece can take anywhere from 30 minutes to 4 hours. A 100k manuscript would then take anywhere from 50 hours to 400 hours. In terms of work time, a week to two months, depending on how problematic the manuscript is.

Compare that to someone asking for a comic. Is it really that big of an ask now?


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## Annoyingkid (Sep 30, 2017)

Queshire said:


> Hm..... Hey, Annoying, how much experience do you have with art or working on a cooperative creative project with somebody?



Fine Art graduate with a graphic novel trilogy WIP in the high fantasy genre. I have informally collaborated with a prose writer on the level of ideas and concepts on a crossover script for a potential part 9. 

I'm experienced with drawing especially: 
DSC00883.jpg Photo by Ayali_album | Photobucket


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## Devor (Sep 30, 2017)

Penpilot said:


> From what I remember, Jack Kirby could turn out three pages of comicbook in one day. This is before computers. I'm not familiar with the process using computers in comics now, but I bet the computers can make things a lot quicker. Also if someone wants to consistently put out a 22 page comic in a month, they need to churn out at least a page a day if they want their weekends off.
> 
> So there's the general ballpark of how long it takes.



That's 1/3 of an 8 hour day, times 22 pages...... or *58 hours a month*.




> For me, per 1000 words, to read and comment on a writing piece can take anywhere from 30 minutes to 4 hours. A 100k manuscript would then take anywhere from 50 hours to 400 hours. In terms of work time, a week to two months, depending on how problematic the manuscript is.



.... vs. 50 - 400 hours to critique an entire book.

^ First, to be blunt, I have flat out said before that it's not appropriate to ask this much work of another writer without pay or returning the favor in-kind.  It is not appropriate to expect somebody to do the work of an editor pro-bono.

Still, a comic that comes out monthly means that you're asking somebody to do 58 hours _per month_.  People do not expect you to do 58 hours of work _per month_ on somebody else's book.  If a book takes a year to write, and you're critiquing is ongoing throughout the process, then divide by twelve and it's more like *4 to 33 hours of work per month*.

But again, if you're the writer, and the other person is a critiquer, that relationship is easy.  They give you feedback, and if you don't like it you can shrug your head and ignore it. But if you're the writer, and the other person is an artist, what happens if you don't like some of the artwork?  So it's actually, *58 hours plus friction*.  Some teams work well together and handle that friction without a problem.  But it adds immensely to the risks involved here.

But then you have to compare that to how much work went into writing 100k words, versus how much goes into planning a 22 page comic, and consider how the artist is going to feel about that comparison.


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## Penpilot (Oct 1, 2017)

Devor said:


> Still, a comic that comes out monthly means that you're asking somebody to do 58 hours _per month_.  People do not expect you to do 58 hours of work _per month_ on somebody else's book.



You say "someone else's book" like the artist isn't going to be given anything in return. Like I said, there has to be a a match up of the artist believing in the writer's vision and the writer sharing ownership of the property. If that happens, it's not any different than any other business partnership. It's not just the artist doing everything for free. 

For example, some voice actors will do work on audio books for a share of the profits instead of an upfront payment.  



Devor said:


> If a book takes a year to write, and you're critiquing is ongoing throughout the process, then divide by twelve and it's more like 4 to 33 hours of work per month.



Why can't a comic book be an ongoing process too? The artist draws a few rough concept pages and gets feed back and then makes adjustments based on said feedback before committing any significant time to a finished product. You make it sound like the artist finishes the book before getting any feedback. There should be back and forth going on from character concept sketches to how the world will look and feel. 

Just as critquer and writer have to build a relationship, so do artist and writers. If it doesn't work for either of the parties, they go their separate ways. 



Devor said:


> But if you're the writer, and the other person is an artist, what happens if you don't like some of the artwork?  So it's actually, *58 hours plus friction*.  Some teams work well together and handle that friction without a problem.  But it adds immensely to the risks involved here.



Most of this stuff should be hammered out before either party enters into the partnership fully. The artist doesn't do the whole book without feedback. As mentioned above, concept sketches will be involved, which don't take long, so the writer will know what the artist is thinking, and they can see if their visions mesh or at the very least if there's room for compromise. If there's no meeting of the minds here, then they shouldn't be working together.

I mean what artist will enter into a relationship with a writer blindly. Same with a writer. Why would anyone work with an artist if they don't have a firm idea of what they're going to deliver.

It's just like the writer editor relationship. If the editor doesn't share the same vision or belief in the story as the writer, then they shouldn't be editing that book.


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## Devor (Oct 1, 2017)

Penpilot said:


> Why can't a comic book be an ongoing process too? The artist draws a few rough concept pages and gets feed back and then makes adjustments based on said feedback before committing any significant time to a finished product. You make it sound like the artist finishes the book before getting any feedback. There should be back and forth going on from character concept sketches to how the world will look and feel.
> 
> Just as critquer and writer have to build a relationship, so do artist and writers. If it doesn't work for either of the parties, they go their separate ways.



I'm not sure that you understood the point I was making Penpilot.

A book takes a year to write, so if you look at how much work a critiquer does over the course of a year, it's 4 to 33 hours based on your 50-400 hour estimates (for the record, I would've said about 45 minutes per 3,000 words, which comes to an even 25 hours for the whole book, because it's unreasonable to expect somebody to do the work of an editor for you).

A comic book doesn't usually stop with one issue.  It's one issue per month, at 58 hours per month, over let's say a year.

So you're comparing 4 to 33 hours per month for a year vs. 58 hours per month for a year.

But maybe that's unreasonable. If a comic sells for $3 an issue, and a book sells for let's say $9, maybe it's better to run it over three months. So 58 hours per month for a comic book, and 16 to 133 hours per month for a book, to create $9 worth of storytelling.

So art for a webcomic, compared to a critique, is a huge ask, even at your estimates. And I mean, your numbers are fine for a chapter or two, but I have trouble thinking anybody is going to agree to critique a book if it's so poor that it will take them 400 hours, which is ten weeks of full-time work.

Of course, the expectation is a split in the profits, I do understand that. *A better comparison isn't a critiquer but a ghostwriter.*  Penpilot, would you be willing to write a story if I laid it out for you?  We'll split the profits.  (Also, I'm dead serious, if you'd actually do it.)


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 1, 2017)

Sharing ownership of the property doesn't pay the bills. For a start I doubt these guys sign any formal legally binding contract. Any artist who is told that they'll be rewarded down the road with a share of ownership of the franchise or project  would do well to run, because it's a scam.  



> Why can't a comic book be an ongoing process too? The artist draws a few rough concept pages and gets feed back and then makes adjustments based on said feedback before committing any significant time to a finished product.



That's fine, as long as the writer pays for every additional adjustment. Because that is taking more of the artist's time. And time is money. Unfortunately that typically doesn't happen, and these writers think they can get a free ride by befriending the artist first. They make a script thats looser than a film script and argue the artist into strengthening the writing through art design.  Which is partially  why they get bailed on so much.



> then they shouldn't be working together.



They probably shouldn't be working together period. The extreme difficulty and cost involved indicates that independent writer/artist collaborations aren't feasible. What Stan Lee did was in an earlier time where the industry was expanding and fresh and  things were not as done and closed off as they are now the industry is contracting. Back then you could make a Something-man and get away with it. Not so today. It boggles my mind the time they spend on the nigh fruitless search for an artist and hoping they stick with it, that they don't just use the time to learn how to draw or write in prose instead. They don't because they want the easy way while whining how they don't get the same recognition of people who actually work their asses off. To which I have to say: 

Quit whining and suffer!


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Oct 1, 2017)

No one, not even comic book artists/writers, deserve to suffer. Everyone deserves love and kindness, no matter who they are or where they come from or what they look like.


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 1, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> No one, not even comic book artists/writers, deserve to suffer. Everyone deserves love and kindness, no matter who they are or where they come from or what they look like.



It's the people who suffer who become successful. As in go through the hard work and extreme practice it takes to master an artform. The sacrifices involved. People who want an easy ride should go play nintendo instead.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Oct 1, 2017)

Um...but what if you do both, like me? [Go through hard work and practice and still play nintendo?]


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 1, 2017)

The point is, on that forum alone you see many comic writers making topics asking about how to find an artist and taking about how they can't draw. When one sees the word can't it just means they don't want to do whatever it takes. Fine. In that case pay the artist a page rate : Don't want to do that either. Too expensive. Then make the script extremely detailed and tight, and submit it to publishers like Dark horse comics. Don't want to do that. They want to spend the time hanging around DeviantArt messaging people trying to get a half decent artist to be inspired enough to draw something for free or cheap.


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## Russ (Oct 2, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> Um...but what if you do both, like me? [Go through hard work and practice and still play nintendo?]



It appears you have either missed the point or are trolling AK with this post.

His point about people's unwillingness to work hard, suffer and sacrifice to achieve real success is an important one, and not considered nearly as often as it should be.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Oct 2, 2017)

^I'm sincerely sorry if I have offended anyone. I'll stay out of discussions like this. I'm always too nice or too joke-y. Thank you.


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## Penpilot (Oct 2, 2017)

Devor said:


> I'm not sure that you understood the point I was making Penpilot.
> 
> A book takes a year to write, so if you look at how much work a critiquer does over the course of a year, it's 4 to 33 hours based on your 50-400 hour estimates (for the record, I would've said about 45 minutes per 3,000 words, which comes to an even 25 hours for the whole book, because it's unreasonable to expect somebody to do the work of an editor for you).
> 
> ...



Yes, the comic takes more time, but like I said the artist should be getting a significant stake in the property vs say a free copy of the book and a Starbucks card for critiquing. 

Like I said, to me, it's no different than someone approaching you with a side project/business opportunity related to your primary field. Based on your relationship with the person, and how they present themselves, you determine if the project is worth your investment in time. 




Devor said:


> Of course, the expectation is a split in the profits, I do understand that. *A better comparison isn't a critiquer but a ghostwriter.*  Penpilot, would you be willing to write a story if I laid it out for you?  We'll split the profits.  (Also, I'm dead serious, if you'd actually do it.)



I made a similar offer to one of my oldest friends. We'd work the ideas for the story together, and I'd do all the grunt work in actually writing the prose. We didn't get beyond the concept stage, because we discovered we're incompatible in our visions of a story and how we like to work. 

As for if you had made me the offer, I would only ghost write if I was paid a upfront fee, because from the way you make it sound, I don't own any of the rights to that property, so I wouldn't have any say in how it was marketed, distributed, etc. A big exception to an offer like this would be if it was coming from someone representing an established franchise like say Star Wars or Warhammer, where there was more certainty in it.

Now if it was a partnership instead, I'd consider it if I believed in the story, we were compatible in the way we work, AND if there was a reasonable distribution of duties. For example if you did all the layouts for the ebook, did/or paid for the cover art and shared in the editing duties, and I had in writing that I owned a significant portion of the property and it was laid out how the profits were to be shared and when.

Some of this could be negotiated, but regardless, I wouldn't just do it for any stranger walking off the street with an idea.   

I mean if all you had was half a page of scribbles with a vague story idea, I'd probably go all squinty-eyed and say no. But if you had a reasonably detailed outline laying out each scene, each plot thread, and for the most part, all I would have to do was write it out, it wouldn't be unreasonable in my eyes. 

Bringing this back around to comics, if all a 'writer' had was a few scribbles and called it a script, it would be an unreasonable ask. But if they had reasonably detailed script, that showed me they knew what they were doing, and that they were serious about the enterprise, then I don't think it's unreasonable. It'd be an opportunity, but obviously not one without risk. And the artist would have to determine if it was a risk worth taking.


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## FifthView (Oct 2, 2017)

I've been doing some reading, various interviews and advice blogs, for aspiring comic book writers and artists, and one common denominator seems to be: Expect to be poor for a long time. Heh. Actually, the common theme seems to be: Get your work "out there" so you can leverage that work in finding a publisher that will take you on (whether one of the big publishers or an independent publisher.) Basically, you need finished work that can catch the eye of a prospective buyer/employer, and this could well mean that the short term payoff is not a paycheck or a steady stream of income so much as having an actual portfolio. For the aspiring comic book artist—and I would assume, aspiring comic book writers—having a day job will probably be necessary for quite some time. The day job could involve creating art or writing outside the comic book industry.

So....I'm not exactly sure this discussion about who puts in what level of work, and the economic payoff or lack thereof, entirely hits the mark. At least for the newest of beginners. Artist and writer could be developing portfolios with the expectation of a larger payoff farther in the future.

This is not to say that advice previously given in this thread is unsound. Obviously, getting the work "out there" means having something that shows both art and writing, i.e., finished products in that medium. And the aspiring writer may be at a disadvantage because, well, comic books require art heh. The aspiring comic book artist can probably show off her talent as an artist even if the writing for those completed pieces isn't stellar. [Although I wonder whether the art might be viewed in a better light if the accompanying story is good.]

Robert Kirkman mentions the writer's dilemma in the video below:

"When you're trying to write comics, specifically, what a writer has to do is be able to make comics, and a writer by themselves can't make comics....

....You have to find an artist somehow."

He offers quick examples that aren't exactly the "pay highly" route for finding an artist, but the method isn't particularly important compared to the simple fact that an artist is necessary, heh.  He also suggests writing scenes, or short 5-page sections, that can demonstrate writing ability. Again, this seems to be coming from the perspective of getting your work out there to entice a publisher. Finding an artist willing to commit less time for such endeavors might be easier. Possibly, cheaper.

You could do a web comic by yourself, or visit various comic cons and set up a booth (expensive, but if you have something to show and sell that you've managed to create, then you are getting your work in front of eyes), and generally try to get independent publishers to take a chance on you on your way to becoming established. Maybe one-off graphic novels or short comic trilogies or whatever would be good too (i.e., rather than hook a writer to stick around for a long-running comic book series.) _[Edit: This last para is my addition, not so much from the vid.]_


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## Devor (Oct 2, 2017)

Penpilot said:


> As for if you had made me the offer, I would only ghost write if I was paid a upfront fee, because from the way you make it sound, I don't own any of the rights to that property, so I wouldn't have any say in how it was marketed, distributed, etc. A big exception to an offer like this would be if it was coming from someone representing an established franchise like say Star Wars or Warhammer, where there was more certainty in it.
> 
> Now if it was a partnership instead, I'd consider it if I believed in the story, we were compatible in the way we work, AND if there was a reasonable distribution of duties. For example if you did all the layouts for the ebook, did/or paid for the cover art and shared in the editing duties, and I had in writing that I owned a significant portion of the property and it was laid out how the profits were to be shared and when.
> 
> Some of this could be negotiated, but regardless, I wouldn't just do it for any stranger walking off the street with an idea.



Okay, that's fair.  If you as a writer could see yourself coming to that kind of partnership with someone, it makes sense that an artist might, too.  I know that I personally find it easy to visualize and plan out a story even in detail but harder to make myself push through words on a page.  Perhaps I'm biased because of how I see my own strengths and weaknesses as a writer.


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## Devor (Oct 2, 2017)

FifthView said:


> He also suggests writing scenes, or short 5-page sections, that can demonstrate writing ability. Again, this seems to be coming from the perspective of getting your work out there to entice a publisher. Finding an artist willing to commit less time for such endeavors might be easier. Possibly, cheaper.



^ This makes sense to me.  Getting an artist for a comic might be lopsided, but for a few pages, it's a good portfolio and a chance to see how well you work together.


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 2, 2017)

> I had in writing that I owned a significant portion of the property and it was laid out how the profits were to be shared and when.



You'd need a lawyer present or else they could just say they didn't write that. Also there's a chance the writer takes your hard work and does nothing with it for a long time. A very long time. The idea of being promised " part ownership" is a scam.


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## Devor (Oct 2, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> You'd need a lawyer present or else they could just say they didn't write that.



Email signatures exchanges hold up just fine in court.


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 2, 2017)

Devor said:


> Email signatures exchanges hold up just fine in court.



You could be interacting with someone on the complete other side of the world. You can't go to court for being scammed by Nigerian 419, you're not taking some Bolivian or Chinese or whatever who uses your hard work in their own country. It's insane to do all that work for a promise of part ownership down the road when you haven't even met the person.


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## Penpilot (Oct 2, 2017)

I've gone to google and here's what I found.

This is from comic writer who has worked for Marvel and DC, and it's a description of his general process and shows what exactly a comic writer does.

Plot to Script: This is How I Do It | Cullen Bunn


And here are some links that give the range on how much an artist can expect to make, to give an idea of what it means dollarwise to product art for a comic. Obviously grain of salt on the sources, but they all seem to line up.

How Much Does a Comic Book Artist Make Per Project? | Chron.com

Cashing In On Comic Books: How Creator Page Rates Have Changed Over Time

Being a cartoonist by the numbers?and the numbers are ugly ? The Beat

average pay rates for comic book artists: by johnchalos on DeviantArt

http://brianchurilla.tumblr.com/post/121294649150/so-you-want-to-be-a-comic-book-artist-heres

https://fairpagerates.com/year-in-review-2015-survey-results/


From what I glean artist can expect to make between  $220 to $4,400 per book project. This is obviously dependant on skill level and reputation. This means they make $10 to $200 per page. In one of the articles a working artist says they get paid a decent rate which was $125 per page, which lands him right in the middle of that range per book project. 

If you're an artist starting out, unless you're exceptional, I don't think you'll be making the top rate. I remember reading that $50 per page when you're starting out is a really good rate, so I'm taking that to mean that at lot start at even less, hence that very bottom end range $10 per page.



Annoyingkid said:


> You could be interacting with someone on the complete other side of the world. You can't go to court for being scammed by Nigerian 419, you're not taking some Bolivian or Chinese or whatever who uses your hard work in their own country. It's insane to do all that work for a promise of part ownership down the road when you haven't even met the person.



If you can't go after them for stealing your work then wouldn't it go the other way too. I'm half-joking here, but if the work is already done and you have the original art, the script, then couldn't you just take all that and put the book out yourself? I'm not sure if it's the wisest thing, but you could sure put a damper on their potential profits if you release the book for free on the web. 

On a more serious note, even if you get to meet people face to face there's potential for problems. There are plenty of stories of comic book artists, writers, etc. not getting paid for their work because the company folded, and if you're starting out, chances are you'll be working for small companies, or individuals who are running shoe string operations. 

I mean how many regular titles do companies like Marvel, DC and Darkhorse produce, maybe around 100 each?

So that's probably around 300 month to month steady work jobs in the big leagues. Maybe raise that to around 500 if you count the smaller companies that are very stable. Now how many artists are banging at the doors to get in? I'm thinking way more than that. In terms of job slots, that's more exclusive than most professional sports leagues like the NHL or NFL.

So I'm thinking Fifthview's post on needing to get out there and show what you can do is pretty relevant.


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 3, 2017)

> If you can't go after them for stealing your work then wouldn't it go the other way too. I'm half-joking here, but if the work is already done and you have the original art, the script, then couldn't you just take all that and put the book out yourself?



Absolutely. Which is why the way to do such collaboration if you really want to is for the writer to have already submitted a proposal to the publisher, for the publisher to accept it on the condition of finding an artist, for the writer to find the artist, for the artist to accept then give their details to the publisher, and for the three of them to have the part ownership deal *confirmed. *

The other way is for the writer to pay the artist a page rate and additional payment for edits. The artist may risk losing their short scripts, but that's the way it is. Write another. Sue the artist IF you find out about it and if you can. 

These are the only two scenarios that qualifies as serious business. The third of course being if you do the story and art yourself. 

Besides those scenarios, anything else should be instantly dismissed. Which is what's happening.


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## Uffda (Oct 23, 2017)

Devor said:


> But wait, you say.  Marvel and DC comics are created by two-person teams, one the writer, one the artist.  Sure, that's true.



Sorry, it's not true. At least for marvel and DC (perhaps not so much for indies), there is a very extensive creative team that starts with an editor, who is responsible for assembling said team. Which does in include more than one writer and one artist. 



Devor said:


> If I said to an artist, "Draw spider man opening a can of soda," everybody knows what that's going to look like.  The creative input of the artist isn't as decisive as it would be for an original work.



That's not writing, that stage direction. Actual writing tells an artist to draw Spider-man opening a can of soda _because it is important somehow to the story_.


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## Devor (Oct 23, 2017)

Uffda said:


> Sorry, it's not true. At least for marvel and DC (perhaps not so much for indies), there is a very extensive creative team that starts with an editor, who is responsible for assembling said team. Which does in include more than one writer and one artist.



I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make in regards to the conversation about writer and artist workloads.  But while Marvel and DC do have editors and a creative team, and often do crossovers with their writing teams, and their writers probably have assistants, and their artists probably lean on colorists, and so on..... most publications still come down to one artist and one writer.

Managing through the creative hierarchy only serves to increase the workload on the writer, who has to justify the story upwards and far in advance... and working with a colorist reduces the workload on the artist, which does a lot to bring the workload on the team closer together.

It's another thing that separates Marvel and DC from new or independent comics writers, looking for an artist. 




> That's not writing, that stage direction. Actual writing tells an artist to draw Spider-man opening a can of soda _because it is important somehow to the story_.



But it wasn't an example of writing. It was an example of artwork. Spiderman opening a can of soda is relatively easy for an artist to do.  A *new character* opening a can of soda is a much larger creative undertaking for the artist. That shifts the decision-making workload from writer towards artist for new/independent strips compared to established characters.

All of this comes back to the main question of the thread: Is it realistic for a writer who wants to break into comics to be looking for an artist?  OR, is the project too much work on an artist for a writer to expect it to work out?


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## Uffda (Oct 23, 2017)

It doesn't matter if it's a new character or if they have been drawn a million times before, what matters is if opening a can of soda is important to the story, 

The reality is that if you want to _create _a comic book, you should expect to pay your creative team a fair wage. Being a "writer" has very little do do with it. You can create a comic book but hire a writer and draw it yourself. Heck, you can come up with an idea and hire out the whole dang lot. If you just want to be a writer, then start sending pitches to editors, who as I mentioned, are responsible for assembling the creative teams.


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 25, 2017)

Uffda said:


> It doesn't matter if it's a new character or if they have been drawn a million times before, what matters is if opening a can of soda is important to the story,



It matters because drawing Spiderman opening a can of soda doesn't involve any character design. Which is why independent writers looking to companies like marvel or dc for what to pay artists and how to script stories isn't working. From what I read the publisher wants the writer to assemble and pay for his or her own creative team.  It's a terrible business model.


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## CupofJoe (Oct 25, 2017)

A friend of mine who has been a Graphic Artist, a musician and involved in creating a graphic novel [more than one I think] has said the working relationship for making a Graphic novel is like being in a band. There may be the lead song writer but others in the band have an input and they have to work as a team. 
I see the publishing houses as very much like music publishers. They may try to pull a team together but they are much happier when a team that is already working together walks through the door.


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## Uffda (Oct 25, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> It matters because drawing Spiderman opening a can of soda doesn't involve any character design. Which is why independent writers looking to companies like marvel or dc for what to pay artists and how to script stories isn't working. From what I read the publisher wants the writer to assemble and pay for his or her own creative team.  It's a terrible business model.



Character design will have been taken care of well ahead of the sequential art phase. 

The normal course of business even for an indie book is that the creator (which we've established here is almost always the writer) will have character designs for reference, or first pay the artist to come up with said character designs. You don't just ask an artist to invent the look of a main character on the fly.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Oct 25, 2017)

Uffda said:


> Character design will have been taken care of well ahead of the sequential art phase.
> 
> The normal course of business even for an indie book is that the creator (which we've established here is almost always the writer) will have character designs for reference, or first pay the artist to come up with said character designs. You don't just ask an artist to invent the look of a main character on the fly.



I thought the point was that when you're starting a new comic, there is work involved in creating the new character design, that isn't necessary when you already have an established character you're working with. Feels like common sense to me. Did I misunderstand something?


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 26, 2017)

Uffda said:


> Character design will have been taken care of well ahead of the sequential art phase.
> 
> The normal course of business even for an indie book is that the creator (which we've established here is almost always the writer) will have character designs for reference, or first pay the artist to come up with said character designs. You don't just ask an artist to invent the look of a main character on the fly.



Not quite on the fly, they expect the character to be designed through argument. Instead, design for hire should be based on time. If you pay for five hours you get five hours worth of design. No more. If you want an hour's worth of additional changes you pay for that hour. That's how a professional relationship operates. There should be no reason whatsoever for an artist and a writer to argue over a design. Ever. The writer isn't returning a faulty product when they ask for additional changes to fit their vision. They're asking for additional modifications to a product that subjectively works fine. If the writer doesn't like it, find another artist.


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## Uffda (Nov 1, 2017)

Michael K. Eidson said:


> I thought the point was that when you're starting a new comic, there is work involved in creating the new character design, that isn't necessary when you already have an established character you're working with. Feels like common sense to me. Did I misunderstand something?



Exactly -- but creating a new design/character is not done when the writer hands over the script, and it's not something a writer/creator should expect an artist to do for free. (New) character designs should be well established by the time the project is ready to move to the sequential art phase. 

See below for an example of some designs I worked with an artist on many years ago for an original comic. This and other characters' looks were well established long before the artist even started drawing page 1 panel 1.










Annoyingkid said:


> Not quite on the fly, they expect the character to be designed through argument. Instead, design for hire should be based on time. If you pay for five hours you get five hours worth of design. No more. If you want an hour's worth of additional changes you pay for that hour. That's how a professional relationship operates. There should be no reason whatsoever for an artist and a writer to argue over a design. Ever. The writer isn't returning a faulty product when they ask for additional changes to fit their vision. They're asking for additional modifications to a product that subjectively works fine. If the writer doesn't like it, find another artist.



I'm not quite understanding what you mean by "designed through argument"? As I mentioned, character designs are established well before the sequential art begins. 

Artists do not work on an hourly rate, at least not in comics... at least not that I've ever heard of. They are traditionally paid a page rate for sequential art, and an agreed-upon flat fee for character design. Now as far as changes, there are a thousand and one different ways to work with an artist when creating a comic, but usually the artist will provide some roughs for the writer/creator to approve before turning in final pages.  

The point I am trying to make in all this is that it's not necessarily a "larger creative undertaking" for an artist to draw a comic that isn't Spider-Man, Batman, or some long-established character.


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## Annoyingkid (Nov 1, 2017)

Uffda said:


> I'm not quite understanding what you mean by "designed through argument"? As I mentioned, character designs are established well before the sequential art begins.



From the OP:


> do your thumbnails. Insist on it. Because it's not only telling you if the ARTIST has a problem, it's telling if YOU have a problem. This is the best, best way to check your script and see how it's flowing. If you have the artistic ability, do them yourself, I guess, but I would rather your artist do them. It helps to build your working relationship it helps get you on the same visual page if you aren't already, and it means that if things need to be changed, you and the artist can *argue about it* and change it before too much work has been done. *That helps keep tempers cool and egos down.*



Ie. Why pay for a complex  or good design when you can pay for a basic one and argue for free modifications over time?





> Artists do not work on an hourly rate, at least not in comics... at least not that I've ever heard of.



Which is why they can't get artists. If they don't pay an hourly rate, then they get no modifications. What they get is what they get.



> They are traditionally paid a page rate for sequential art, and an agreed-upon flat fee for character design. Now as far as changes, there are a thousand and one different ways to work with an artist when creating a comic, but usually the artist will provide some roughs for the writer/creator to approve before turning in final pages.



And just how do you think the artist comes up with the value of that flat fee? Wild guess? Shoot in the dark? No, an hourly rate. The size of that fee reflects the time the artist will invest. If the artist earns twenty bucks an hour, then a flat fee of 100 dollars gets the writer 5 hours worth of character design work whether the writer agrees to that or not. Because let me guarantee you this : The artist isn't running a charity and isn't working overtime for the writer.




> The point I am trying to make in all this is that it's not necessarily a "larger creative undertaking" for an artist to draw a comic that isn't Spider-Man, Batman, or some long-established character.



An original setting has more unique aspects to it than just characters. There's weapons, buildings, the characters themselves are less familiar to the artist than cultural icons giving less or no frame of reference for the interpretation of the script, magic or the look of powers, the look of extras, any unique fighting style and so on, and so on. Character designs in and of themselves does not make a setting. It's always going to be more challenging to draw the original hero's hideout based on the words of the writer then it is to look up a panel of the batcave and just copy that layout.

If you think it's not a larger creative undertaking despite having a bunch of character designs in front of you, by all means try it yourself. See for yourself.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Nov 1, 2017)

Uffda said:


> Exactly -- but creating a new design/character is not done when the writer hands over the script, and it's not something a writer/creator should expect an artist to do for free. (New) character designs should be well established by the time the project is ready to move to the sequential art phase.
> 
> See below for an example of some designs I worked with an artist on many years ago for an original comic. This and other characters' looks were well established long before the artist even started drawing page 1 panel 1.
> 
> ...



Are we getting into semantics? There must be work done to design a character. Is that something everyone can agree on?

If one artist works on the design and another artist take those designs and starts drawing the comic, then the second artist didn't have to do the work involved in designing the character, because the first artist did it, but the work was done, nonetheless. I don't understand the objection to the statement that a character not designed yet requires more work than a character already designed. If the objection is that, hey, the design is always done beforehand, it feels like that's ignoring that the design was even done at all.


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## Sheilawisz (Nov 3, 2017)

Hi everyone in this thread, I have just a quick and friendly reminder:

*Avoiding Duplicate Content*

Please do not repost anything that has previously been posted elsewhere on the Internet (including your own sites or blogs).

If you wish to share an excerpt from an article or page that is located on another site, the excerpt must be no longer that 3-5 sentences, and must include a link back to the original article.

Thanks!


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## Uffda (Nov 16, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> Which is why they can't get artists. If they don't pay an hourly rate, then they get no modifications. What they get is what they get.



No. That's not how it works.



Annoyingkid said:


> And just how do you think the artist comes up with the value of that flat fee? Wild guess? Shoot in the dark? No, an hourly rate. The size of that fee reflects the time the artist will invest. If the artist earns twenty bucks an hour, then a flat fee of 100 dollars gets the writer 5 hours worth of character design work whether the writer agrees to that or not. Because let me guarantee you this : The artist isn't running a charity and isn't working overtime for the writer.



Again, no, that's not how it works. If an artist agrees to some character designs based on a particular fee, he/she is not going to quit working on them after 5 hours just because "time's up." I'm not trying to be flippant, but it's obvious you've never created a comic, and have little understanding of how it actually works.

I'll say this again: illustrators and comic book artists do not traditionally charge by the hour. 

Think of it this way: if the kid down the street agrees to mow your lawn for $20, would they stop 3/4th of the way though because it's suddenly taking them longer than they think is worth $20? (Probably not, but they may ask for $30 the next time.)



Annoyingkid said:


> An original setting has more unique aspects to it than just characters. There's weapons, buildings, the characters themselves are less familiar to the artist than cultural icons giving less or no frame of reference for the interpretation of the script, magic or the look of powers, the look of extras, any unique fighting style and so on, and so on. Character designs in and of themselves does not make a setting. It's always going to be more challenging to draw the original hero's hideout based on the words of the writer then it is to look up a panel of the batcave and just copy that layout.



There are original locations in just about every comic, whether it's batman, Spider-Man, or something you just made up. And hey, what to stop an artist from using the layout of the Batcave or Fortress of Solitude for the original hero's hideout? 



Michael K. Eidson said:


> I don't understand the objection to the statement that a character not designed yet requires more work than a character already designed. If the objection is that, hey, the design is always done beforehand, it feels like that's ignoring that the design was even done at all.



That is exactly the objection. Nobody hands over a script with a 100% brand new lead character and tells the artist to just invent his look on the fly as they are drawing the sequential pages. That's just nuts.


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## Annoyingkid (Nov 16, 2017)

Uffda said:


> No. That's not how it works.



How what works? _It's not working._ That's the whole point of this thread. If it was working there wouldn't be so many comic writers without artists. There wouldn't be so many artists abandoning these projects.




> Again, no, that's not how it works. If an artist agrees to some character designs based on a particular fee, he/she is not going to quit working on them after 5 hours just because "time's up." I'm not trying to be flippant, but it's obvious you've never created a comic, and have little understanding of how it actually works.



Do you believe you're entitled to free work? Because that's what you're telling me. You think artists are so stupid you'll pay them a flat fee for a character design and the amount of time they're working on said design isn't going to matter to the artist? Things like bills and food , that doesn't matter. Artists aren't even human. We're fairies who will work for however long it takes , for a flat fee. No. The artist is going to start wrapping it up when the fee doesn't justify continued work. That should be blatantly obvious to anybody. This does not mean the design is incomplete (although the writer may think so). It means the design is of a quality appropriate to the time invested and the fee paid. Again, to argue with this is to say you're entitled to free work.

It's obvious that I've never created a comic and have little understanding how it actually works?
Is that a fact?

Photo by C D

Maybe I understand more than you think. Maybe you should listen.



> I'll say this again: illustrators and comic book artists do not traditionally charge by the hour.
> 
> Think of it this way: if the kid down the street agrees to mow your lawn for $20, would they stop 3/4th of the way though because it's suddenly taking them longer than they think is worth $20? (Probably not, but they may ask for $30 the next time.)



The kid isn't going to stop halfway through, but the kid will rush through the job or do a very basic job for just twenty bucks. No one's saying anything about half finished.




> There are original locations in just about every comic, whether it's batman, Spider-Man, or something you just made up. And hey, what to stop an artist from using the layout of the Batcave or Fortress of Solitude for the original hero's hideout?



Because the law.


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## Sheilawisz (Nov 16, 2017)

Hello everyone!

Please remember the _Guiding Principle_ of Mythic Scribes, which states: The guiding principle is to treat others with respect and dignity, and to foster a positive, welcoming and family friendly community.

Take it easy and do not allow the conversation to get heated =)

Thread Moved to the Fantasy Art Forum

S.W.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Nov 17, 2017)

Uffda said:


> That is exactly the objection. Nobody hands over a script with a 100% brand new lead character and tells the artist to just invent his look on the fly as they are drawing the sequential pages. That's just nuts.



Which to me means you're arguing a different point than the one I thought was being made. _There is work being done by *someone* for a new character design._ What is the objection to that statement? The writer doesn't just wave a wand and have character design notes to give the artist.


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## Dark Squiggle (Apr 19, 2018)

Old thread, I know, but I remember a contractor telling me that he'd never bargain hard with a customer. He said that the number of dollars given him were proportional to the number of nails holding up the siding. In other words, if you underpay, you will get shoddy work.
I get the amount of output you have is related to the amount of work you put in and each new project is another chance to break into the profitable side of things. I heard from an unreliable source that Terry Pratchett was a nobody until he published _Small Gods, _ when the turtle on the cover finally hurled him into fame. (may or may not be true, but a good story anyway.)
As an Artist, not really a writer, I will say that as of right now I'd illustrate anything, but if I thought I could get legit commissions, I wouldn't work for solid cash on a big project unless I thought you had a good chance, as in are a published author, or I really like the story that much and like you as  a person to boot.


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## Uffda (Apr 19, 2018)

I like the contractor analogy, but I also think if you are doing work for hire (whether is is siding or art or whatever), who the customer is needs to be taken into consideration. If I am an artist and Joe Schmoe wants to hire me to illustrate the cover of his comic, I understand that he likely does not have the resources of Marvel Comics. If I am an artist and some struggling family needs siding put on their house, I'd probably charge less than I would to remodel a McDonalds. Does not mean I'd put in any less effort in either case. Or, I guess I could turn down the struggling family and continue to look for higher-paying work. It's all subjective (much like art!)


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## Annoyingkid (Apr 19, 2018)

Having enough money to eat, pay the bills, buy materials, and live life, isn't subjective. 
And how would you know the writer is struggling? Cos they say so? They all say that.


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## pmmg (Apr 19, 2018)

For me, working in IT, I tend to do all the friends and family PC's for free or parts only, depends. At present I work with the same people everyday, so I tell them if they bring their home PC in, I will fix it, but I don't do house calls. In earlier years I did, and I did not like it. Mostly because I knew they could not afford me. Just a small thing like a virus on a PC could take several hours to fix, and if I was real thorough, a day or so. At an hourly rate, and that gets expensive quick. Yeah, I gave a lot a charity over the years, but what I can I do, I feel for people in that position, but my time valuable too. But I disliked working on home user stuff for a lot of reasons, and none of them ever said, wow, you worked so hard, here have more money. So the charity only seemed to go one way. I am kind of out of the home user game, and I don't think I will ever go back. Its not worth it.

I suspect the same is true for any profession. If I am an artist, I have to pay my bills to. What I do has got to cover that. So I am happy to draw and paint pictures, and perhaps in some special circumstances I will, but if it my profession, I cant just give it away on a whim. Not sure if any of that was on topic or not, but...


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## skip.knox (Apr 19, 2018)

>Having enough money to eat, pay the bills, buy materials, and live life, isn't subjective.

These things are in fact highly subjective. What one eats is elastic (to use the economics term). Even paying bills is, especially if you are rich. What one person considers a necessity, another considers a luxury. Indeed, the wide variation in perception as to what is necessary lies beneath many arguments between management and labor.


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## Annoyingkid (Apr 20, 2018)

skip.knox said:


> >Having enough money to eat, pay the bills, buy materials, and live life, isn't subjective.
> 
> These things are in fact highly subjective.



Not to the individual artist. They have an objective amount to cover their expenses and make profit. To say it's "subjective" is scam talk, language used to try to sucker someone into accepting a lower standard of living so they can work for less on your special snowflake project. The writer needs the artist more than the artist needs the writer. The artist sets the terms. Period. Don't like it, find another one. (almost all can't)


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