# Romance



## Garren Jacobsen (Aug 31, 2016)

So, I have to ask, how do y'all handle romance. Right now I am writing one that is a slow build. A date here, some hand holding there, and so on. It'll take an entire book for my MMC to even admit he is in love and wants to have a relationship with this girl. Is that too long of a withholding without enough of a lay off. I'd like to note that the MMC is dead set on not having a relationship because of a damaging, socially, mentally, and physically and blood borne disease that he doesn't want to spread. But after meeting her and almost dying decides life is too short to live without love. Does this work or is it too much held back with not enough pay off?


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## skip.knox (Aug 31, 2016)

Impossible to say without reading it. Let me try turning the table on you. Oof. It's a heavy table.

Why not have it happen sooner? What is it about the plot that makes it impossible for these two to get together in Chapter 5, just to pick something really early? Or by the mid-point of the book? 

Is the romance the point of the book? Is this a book about how love can heal a damaged person? Or is it about a farm boy and his destiny, with the romance a sub-plot? 

If he loves this person so much, why is he willing to condemn her to his own fate? Or are they both happy with a celibate relationship? Though, even there, living together is going to entail risk, since even a bloody nose could be deadly, right? 

Is the payoff at the end a kiss? Intercourse (in which case, see above)? A big wedding? 

As things stand, there is as yet "insufficient data for meaningful answer."


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## FifthView (Aug 31, 2016)

Skip mentioned and asked the things I would.

I can add a personal note.  I am almost always irritated by an unnecessary romance plugged into most types of story.  What is or is not "necessary" will depend, of course, on the type of story and the purpose the romance serves. 

I almost feel that yours might be a case of this:  she & the romance are a character-building foil for your MC.  The romance, its development or lack thereof for the majority of the book, how it turns out—these things don't affect the plot significantly?  By affecting the plot I mean even tangentially by affecting what the MC does or does not do at any given point in the story.

But as Skip said, "insufficient data for meaningful answer."


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## Garren Jacobsen (Aug 31, 2016)

Romance is not the point of the book. The book isn't about the healing power of love. Primarily it's a young man dealing with being part of a hyper-marginalized group and dealing with how to improve his station in life, along with helping people like him. He wants to stay friends with her but not live with her or get emotionally involved beyond a deep and abiding friendship. The pay off at the end physically is a kiss, but the more important emotional pay off is him and her getting into a steady relationship. 

As for getting together sooner the book takes place over year's worth of school, about 9 months. He meets her on orientation day. Their relationship starts off as friends with a mutual attraction to each other that grows into a budding romance. So the primary issue is time. They interact frequently but have to build the relation from square one. 

As for affecting the plot, it gives him a second choice. Up until that point, he thought he had only one choice to make his life better, join a terrorist group. Without her and the choice that she presents he would get up to his tits in terrorism. She is integral to the plot


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 31, 2016)

"Too much held back, not enough payoff" Not quite sure what you are asking here. As for whether to include the romance, I don't think anyone can answer that except you, especially without all the details (having read the book). 

My belief is that you should let your story lead and you follow. If a romantic subplot is where your story happens to lead, so be it. It doesn't sound as if you are trying to artificially splice it in just to have a romantic subplot. If your character is showing romantic interest in another character, don't steer them away. If their relationship falls through in a painful and messy way, let that happen. 

If you're worried about the slow build of the relationship, I'm writing a series and my female MC and her love interest don't even kiss until the third book. (My male MC has a romantic subplot that develops earlier and more quickly, however.) They spend a long time developing a friendship, but initially neither has any romantic intention. Personally I prefer a slow burn; it's more realistic (how many books have I read where the main couple meet, fall in love and make out a few times in the span of a few weeks?). 

As a general rule, the more sexual tension you build throughout the story, the more release you will eventually need. Multiple books of a developing romance won't end with just a chaste kiss...what with the build of tension, you'll want things to get more heated proportional to the buildup (the payoff you seem to be describing). Of course, if your character doesn't want to spread his illness (I assume he's not so selfish that he'd risk infecting her with it) actual sex is out of the question. 

I think you can make anything "work." Until you be more specific, I won't have much advice as to how.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 31, 2016)

Ok, I didn't see your latest post until now...


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## SaltyDog (Aug 31, 2016)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> So, I have to ask, how do y'all handle romance. Right now I am writing one that is a slow build. A date here, some hand holding there, and so on. It'll take an entire book for my MMC to even admit he is in love and wants to have a relationship with this girl. Is that too long of a withholding without enough of a lay off. I'd like to note that the MMC is dead set on not having a relationship because of a damaging, socially, mentally, and physically and blood borne disease that he doesn't want to spread. But after meeting her and almost dying decides life is too short to live without love. Does this work or is it too much held back with not enough pay off?



It's taking me a whole book to even ease into the concept.  I want to try it, and will probably do so in the later books.  

Now? No heavy romance, just glimmers.

Can he love her without infecting her with the disease?  That's the main question.  If it's too much of a risk, it would make sense if he loved her so much, so not to have a chance of spreading his ailment to her, by breaking of the relationship.

It could work if he's extra careful around her, and has no intercourse, as everyone said.  I agree with skip.knox, I would really have to read more.


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## Heliotrope (Aug 31, 2016)

I love romance sub plots. Love them. I include them in all my stories, usually. Even my POV, which is for kids, has a small romance subplot that ends in a first kiss. I just feel it is very humanizing for a character to be in love. It adds another dimension to the character that makes them altruistic and more sympathetic to the reader. 

In your case, a slow boil is not an issue, I don't think. If it makes sense to take it slow then take it slow.


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## Chessie (Aug 31, 2016)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> So, I have to ask, how do y'all handle romance. Right now I am writing one that is a slow build. A date here, some hand holding there, and so on. It'll take an entire book for my MMC to even admit he is in love and wants to have a relationship with this girl. Is that too long of a withholding without enough of a lay off. I'd like to note that the MMC is dead set on not having a relationship because of a damaging, socially, mentally, and physically and blood borne disease that he doesn't want to spread. But after meeting her and almost dying decides life is too short to live without love. Does this work or is it too much held back with not enough pay off?


First, decide whether if you're doing a love subplot or a romance one. If it's romance, then there must be a happy ending aka, HFN (happy for now) or HEA (happily ever after). A love story doesn't need to end with the couple together. A romance one must.

So with that said, you have the right idea of slowly intertwining them towards togetherness. And it sounds like they end up together from your posts. Here are the elements you need in order to have a successful romance (sub)plot:

-when they first meet on page, there must be some sort of conflict. In many romances, they don't like each other from the start. Some examples include she witnesses him being a jerk to someone and she decides he's not a nice person, he's rude to her somehow, she's rude to him, maybe there's something more taboo like stepbrother or whatever. But there needs to be something that makes them both go "uh...no" besides their own insecurities.

-Speaking of insecurities, each hero must have that something holding them back from wanting a true love relationship. For example, in the fantasy romance I'm working on the heroes are pushed into an arranged marriage (conflict). He's cold because he's harboring a deep secret, which prevents him from opening up and trusting her. She's resentful of being pushed into a marriage and also annoyed by his bad attitude. How are they going to live happily ever after? Because it's a romance, readers know that they WILL end up together but how? 

-Their insecurities must bring them close, then tear them apart, bring them close, then tear them apart, etc.

-**KEY point: the must be immediately attracted to one another. Remember when I said they need conflict? Yeah but oh, he's just so hot! She's so breathtakingly beautiful! They have to be physically, emotionally, chemically attracted to one another because it will be the foundation of their adhesion.

-They have to be brought together somehow in the plot. Maybe they have to adventure together, or solve a mystery together. They have to be forced to deal with one another, face to face, daily.

-They start to fall in love with one another because the hotness just draws them in. They have insecurities and doubts about the other person but the potency of chemical lust is bonding them together. Falling in love happens through tender moments, dates, saving each other's hides, emotional turbulence, little spats, making out, sex, etc.Think of how real life romances go.

-Their insecurities eventually get the best of them. They start looking for evidence to confirm their doubts. This leads to fighting, no way jose am I going to be with that person, etc.

-They break up. Important part of the romance plot. But before they break up they have sex or do something physical which puts them on cloud nine so the breakup stings baby, it stings.

-They realize how foolish they are when all they had was lost. During the falling in love, sometimes they thought it could work. Now, they realize what they had with each other was magical and here is where allies come in. Someone talks sense into the heroes and they now suddenly...

-want to get back what they lost. They are willing to do whatever it takes to win back their love.

-they make a grand gesture (radio at the window) to win back their love

-they make up and live happily ever after


That's basically it. But I encourage you to read more about romance plots because there's a specific way they should go, even if it's just a subplot. Good luck!


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 31, 2016)

Chesterama said:


> First, decide whether if you're doing a love subplot or a romance one. If it's romance, then there must be a happy ending aka, HFN (happy for now) or HEA (happily ever after). A love story doesn't need to end with the couple together. A romance one must.
> 
> So with that said, you have the right idea of slowly intertwining them towards togetherness. And it sounds like they end up together from your posts. Here are the elements you need in order to have a successful romance (sub)plot:
> 
> ...



I have to severely question all of this...

This is a good formula, but this isn't how romances *have* to go. There isn't really a standard...the way I see it, characters will do what characters will do. 

I think the most important takeaway is that there has to be conflict. They're being pulled together, but they're also being pulled apart. You can't just have them go on dates and make out and everything be peachy. Fighting, difficult circumstances, personal problems...that's what makes a romance worth reading about. CONFLICT. 

The part I question is, MUST they be immediately attracted to one another? And MUST it be physical attraction? Romances grounded in physical attraction end up being shallow and vapid, in my opinion. Physical attraction is important...but not THE MOST important thing. 

I don't know, to me, it just seems unrealistic because firstly, I've never been *immediately* attracted to someone upon meeting them, at least not in the way you're talking about, and secondly, I often don't find someone attractive until I like their personality and character, until I've already fallen for them as a person...maybe I'm weird? I know some people I consider very attractive, but I dislike them anyway because they are jerks. Does love have to depend on both characters being supermodels that blow the other away with their gorgeousness? no...

Seriously, if I have to read another reiteration of: *two characters meet* "OMG!!!! THIS IS LITERALLY THE HOTTEST PERSON I HAVE SEEN IN MY ENTIRE LIFE!!!!" I will roll my eyes so hard I will have to get them surgically reattached.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 31, 2016)

That said, I would appreciate some suggestions for how to place conflict into my romance subplot (that isn't a love triangle)


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## SaltyDog (Aug 31, 2016)

Most importantly would be how they act, at least that is how it works for me, and I use that setup in my story and for MC's.  Psychical beauty is a bonus though.  I mean if a gorgeous woman walks past my MC, He is gonna notice.  Now if she is a bad tempered and rotten to the core, he'll probably cut contact with her, if he has the possibility to do so at least. 

My romances tend to start with friendship, not with a first glance of a attractive man/woman.  The two are close friends, as the story progresses they start to really feel for each other.

Once they get together and all is good, I'll probably kill off one, or both.  Lol, actually it is a possibility.


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## Ireth (Aug 31, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> That said, I would appreciate some suggestions for how to place conflict into my romance subplot (that isn't a love triangle)



There's always a conflict of interests or loyalties. Maybe one has some affiliation to something the other absolutely hates. Maybe their personalities clash. Maybe the guy's friend is a murderer, and the guy has to help him cover it up, which causes the girl to be suspicious. Just throwing ideas out there. ^^


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## Chessie (Aug 31, 2016)

Dragon, I write only romance and have studied romance plots for a very long time. Pretty sure I know what I'm talking about. I'm trying to help Brian understand the weavings of a romance plot, which is not the same as other plots. Characters can't just do whatever they want. There are certain paramaters and elements within the workings of romance stories. As an avid reader and writer of romance, my post came with many years of experience.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 31, 2016)

Chesterama said:


> Dragon, I write only romance and have studied romance plots for a very long time. Pretty sure I know what I'm talking about. I'm trying to help Brian understand the weavings of a romance plot, which is not the same as other plots. Characters can't just do whatever they want. There are certain paramaters and elements within the workings of romance stories. As an avid reader and writer of romance, my post came with many years of experience.



Must a romance subplot work in a different way than romance actually works in life, though...? 

I mean, I guess if it's not meant to be realistic...


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## Chessie (Aug 31, 2016)

You're not a romance reader. You're not in the target audience. So therefore, how would you know what romance readers like/want? Subplots should be done just as right as main plots, doesn't matter what they are. If the OP wants to write a good romance subplot then there are certain parameters that must be followed. The whole idea of love at first sight is something you don't understand because, again, that's not your genre. If you don't like it then I'm sorry, but that's how it's done. Talk to any romance author. I've read a ton of romance books of all niches and watched movies and television shows in the genre. I write fantasy & historical romance. So you can disagree with me all you want. My response wasn't for you.

Fiction doesn't need to be realistic. It's a fantasy. People who read romance and fantasy want...a fantasy. Not reality.


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## TheKillerBs (Aug 31, 2016)

There is the lifelong friends realising they've been in love for a long time plot though. That one isn't love at first sight, although there's still that moment where they see each other with new eyes (or one of them because the other one already knew).


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 31, 2016)

Chesterama said:


> You're not a romance reader. You're not in the target audience. So therefore, how would you know what romance readers like/want? Subplots should be done just as right as main plots, doesn't matter what they are. If the OP wants to write a good romance subplot then there are certain parameters that must be followed. The whole idea of love at first sight is something you don't understand because, again, that's not your genre. If you don't like it then I'm sorry, but that's how it's done. Talk to any romance author. I've read a ton of romance books of all niches and watched movies and television shows in the genre. I write fantasy & historical romance. So you can disagree with me all you want. My response wasn't for you.
> 
> Fiction doesn't need to be realistic. It's a fantasy. People who read romance and fantasy want...a fantasy. Not reality.



The OP's readers aren't romance readers either. They're fantasy readers, I assume. True, i don't read romance, but many of the books i read have romance subplots (which I DO enjoy) and perhaps readers who don't read within the romance genre want different things from a romance subplot than a romance reader would want from a romance story? I mean, if I am not a complete and total outlier...?


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## Chessie (Aug 31, 2016)

@ Killer Bs: It's not so much love at first sight as lust at first sight. Physical attraction is the foundation of any budding romance. That's not shallow, it's biology. This is just one component though. A good romance has a lot going on at once between the heroes and inside themselves. It'll be complicated and beautiful at the same time.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 31, 2016)

A romance novel encompasses one aspect of life (romance) while a fantasy novel has much more going on, like saving the world, etc. A fantasy audience is going to want something different than a romance audience.

Or at least I (fantasy audience) do...


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## TheKillerBs (Aug 31, 2016)

Chesterama said:


> @ Killer Bs: It's not so much love at first sight as lust at first sight. Physical attraction is the foundation of any budding romance. That's not shallow, it's biology. This is just one component though. A good romance has a lot going on at once between the heroes and inside themselves. It'll be complicated and beautiful at the same time.



Oh, I know. I was saying that more for DotA's sake. I understand full well the importance of intense physical attraction at the beginning of the romance (sub-)plot. But he was saying that he didn't like that so I pointed out another option. Although I don't really get his objections... I've never heard of a relationship starting between two people who don't find each other physically attractive in some way.


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## Chessie (Aug 31, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> The OP's readers aren't romance readers either. They're fantasy readers, I assume. True, i don't read romance, but many of the books i read have romance subplots (which I DO enjoy) and perhaps readers who don't read within the romance genre want different things from a romance subplot than a romance reader would want from a romance story? I mean, if I am not a complete and total outlier...?


I am fully aware that his readers are fantasy readers, not romance. But he was specifically asking for help with a romance subplot. I posted the basics of romance plots in general. My understanding of writing novels is that when you weave subplots into the main plots, the subplots should be fully developed plots as well, which is why I posted the basics of what a romance story line looks like. 

Not sure what or why you're disagreeing with me, maybe it's because you think that love at first sight and sticky love is stupid or what I'm saying is harmful somehow. That's fine. My advice was meant for another user asking a question, which I answered to the best of my ability. If you think that you have something else or deeper to offer him, go right ahead. You're saying that the romance subplots you read are different than what I listed and I find that hard to believe. Romance is structured in a certain way just like mystery, or horror, or fantasy adventure. I'm trying to help out a fellow writer with knowledge I've learned over the years.

Furthermore, I don't really like the tone of your posts to me. They seem like...idk...maybe I'm stupid or something because you disagree with me? I've been writing for a very long time and educate myself constantly when it comes to story structure. I don't appreciate being treated as if I don't know what I'm talking about and with that, the discussion between you and I is over. I'm not answering anymore of your posts. Ever.


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## SaltyDog (Aug 31, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> A romance novel encompasses one aspect of life (romance) while a fantasy novel has much more going on, like saving the world, etc. A fantasy audience is going to want something different than a romance audience.
> 
> Or at least I (fantasy audience) do...



I agree with you there DotA, sure romance is okay as a subplot, but I'm more focused on the saving world part.


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## SaltyDog (Aug 31, 2016)

And I think y'all two need to take a break from this thread, personally.  Or each other at least.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 31, 2016)

Chesterama said:


> I am fully aware that his readers are fantasy readers, not romance. But he was specifically asking for help with a romance subplot. I posted the basics of romance plots in general. My understanding of writing novels is that when you weave subplots into the main plots, the subplots should be fully developed plots as well, which is why I posted the basics of what a romance story line looks like.
> 
> Not sure what or why you're disagreeing with me, maybe it's because you think that love at first sight and sticky love is stupid or what I'm saying is harmful somehow. That's fine. My advice was meant for another user asking a question, which I answered to the best of my ability. If you think that you have something else or deeper to offer him, go right ahead. You're saying that the romance subplots you read are different than what I listed and I find that hard to believe. Romance is structured in a certain way just like mystery, or horror, or fantasy adventure. I'm trying to help out a fellow writer with knowledge I've learned over the years.
> 
> Furthermore, I don't really like the tone of your posts to me. They seem like...idk...maybe I'm stupid or something because you disagree with me? I've been writing for a very long time and educate myself constantly when it comes to story structure. I don't appreciate being treated as if I don't know what I'm talking about and with that, the discussion between you and I is over. I'm not answering anymore of your posts. Ever.



I'm not trying to denigrate you, and I don't think you're stupid or don't know what you're talking about. I definitely didn't intend to imply that. My disagreement with something you said does not mean that I have anything personally against you. I know tone can be misinterpreted in the written word, and there definitely has been a misinterpretation of some sort. I try to treat everyone and their opinions with respect, even when they disagree with me. I'm sorry if I came across as confrontational, but the fact that i disagree with you in of itself is not rude or disrespectful, even though you have more expertise on the subject than I do. My opinion and perspective is valid like anyone else's. And it's not wrong for me to want something different out of a story than some other people do.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 31, 2016)

SaltyDog said:


> And I think y'all two need to take a break from this thread, personally.  Or each other at least.



I wasn't intending to start an argument...


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## Peat (Aug 31, 2016)

See, normally I use love and romance interchangeably. But Chesterama's posts have reminded me that in fiction, they're not the same thing necessarily because romance relates to a genre and a set of rules. When people hear the word romance, a lot of them expect a certain thing.

So... I'm a sucker for a good love story. But romances give me the heebie-jeebies.

I'd also add that while I'm a great believer in ignoring people screaming "But I hate that cliche", people complaining about reading a non-romance genre book and discovering a big old romance in the middle is something I see a lot of. So I say to Brian that if you want to follow Chesterama's expert advice, be sure to signal loud and clear what you're doing to your audience at the start. Personally I'd never go for anything marmite in a book if its not integral but hey, you do you.

And, while I can't say for sure without seeing the thing, I don't see an issue with the only pay-off of a love story being "Okay, I'm in love, I'll be giving this relationship thing a go". That works for me.


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## SaltyDog (Aug 31, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I wasn't intending to start an argument...



I understand, but when one is imminent, best to stop, and let it cool of then to start a post war.  I mean you both have your opinions, great, now it's up to Brian Scott Allen to take them into accord.


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## skip.knox (Aug 31, 2016)

It is not usually helpful to say, or even to infer, that one is an expert on X and therefore other people need to sit down and listen. That is an _ad hominem_ attack done from reverse angle, but it still is beyond the guidelines for the forums.

This thread may have gone astray over that single word, romance. I believe, though I invite Brian to clarify, that when he said "romance" what he meant was simply a romantic sub-plot and did not mean to invoke the literary genre, Romance. Chesterama, here again I invite the author to clarify, took it as the latter and proceeded to give a perfectly good description of the basic tropes of that genre. Others took that as prescriptive, and naturally asserted that there were other ways of approaching a love story.

People were, in other words, speaking in different tongues.

For myself, I'd still like to hear BAS address my first set of questions. Why not have the kiss (since that's the culmination) happen in the middle of the book? Or earlier? Or, I suppose, three-quarters.

I ask this because it would help clarify the relationship of the love story (notice I did not say romance!) to the main plot. For example, does the main character need the declaration of love (however meant) in order to achieve something in the main plot? If so, where does that happen? Then that starts to dictate the pace at which the love story develops. OTOH, if the main plot can proceed without regard to the progress of the love story, then I begin to wonder if the love story is not indeed tacked on.

But, BAS, I think I hear your pain. I, too, have a love story sub-plot, and it bedevils me. The timing of the physical relationship, from first glance to intercourse, seems to expand and contract almost arbitrarily. I struggle to connect the several points of progression in the love story to the several points of the main plot. Like you, I know where I want it to wind up, but the getting there seems to encompass a myriad of criss-crossing paths. So, alas, I don't have clear answers for you. Only annoying questions.


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## Chessie (Aug 31, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> It is not usually helpful to say, or even to infer, that one is an expert on X and therefore other people need to sit down and listen. That is an _ad hominem_ attack done from reverse angle, but it still is beyond the guidelines for the forums.


I'm not an expert, but only mentioned that I have experience with romance subplots. That's the truth and I'm not sure how there's anything wrong in having said that? I also stated at the beginning of my first post that there's a difference between love and romance. Assuming Brian meant a romance subplot, I simply shared what I know of the genre. I was only trying to help but sometimes I truly feel that my suggestions/comments are so easily dismissed on this site over and over again. And at the risk of sounding all emo...it makes me not want to share.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 31, 2016)

I hate having enemies. I try not to be a horrible person, but misunderstandings and such happen. Can we all accept that there are different ways of looking at things and we can *all* learn from one another's perspectives? Clearer communication could have prevented this whole fiasco, probably. 

Discussion and disagreement, especially the ability to discuss and disagree peacefully, is part of what makes these forums so helpful to writers. We can build on one another's ideas, compare and contrast, modify or repurpose techniques and ideas for our own use. Everyone's perspective is worth something. And if we can examine and add onto other's ideas instead of shutting ourselves up in our own ideas, everyone will benefit. These forums are so very far above the mud-slinging and profanity found in other areas of the Internet and I don't want to contribute to their decline. 

I disagree with people a lot, and people often interpret it as an attack. I honestly had no idea that any of my comments could have been misinterpreted as condescending or confrontational.  I'm not attacking you as a person if I disagree with you. I'm simply presenting my own perspective, which only goes so far, but it is my perspective. 

Chill pills for everyone? 

Oh, and sorry for derailing your thread, Brian...I doubt any of that helped you resolve your dilemma.


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## Peat (Aug 31, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> But, BAS, I think I hear your pain. I, too, have a love story sub-plot, and it bedevils me. The timing of the physical relationship, from first glance to intercourse, seems to expand and contract almost arbitrarily. I struggle to connect the several points of progression in the love story to the several points of the main plot. Like you, I know where I want it to wind up, but the getting there seems to encompass a myriad of criss-crossing paths. So, alas, I don't have clear answers for you. Only annoying questions.



I once saw someone say the best way to pace subplots is to stick them in when you need a break from the main plot. A little simple but its a decent place to start in my experience. For me, that usually means before a big bit of action, or after. The subplot serves as a palate cleanser.

Maybe look at your plot and mark where you need the palate cleansers? Once you know how often it'll come up, pacing it could be easier.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Sep 1, 2016)

Let me first say I have been monitoring the thread but I haven't been able to post due to various time constraints this evening. This thread has been informative and has helped me to understand the complexities of love and romance plots. So, thank you all for participating and I would love for people to continue participating. Now, I am going to address Skip first and then ask Chesterama a question.



skip.knox said:


> For myself, I'd still like to hear BAS address my first set of questions. Why not have the kiss (since that's the culmination) happen in the middle of the book? Or earlier? Or, I suppose, three-quarters.



Now, the kiss simply cannot happen in the middle of the book or earlier for a few very important reasons. The most prominent in my mind is that Jude and her don't meet initially until chapter 4 and don't have regular interactions until chapter 8 or so. That right there is about 1/4 of the book until it starts making sense for them to build a relation. The second most prominent in my mind is Jude's reluctance. This reluctance is tied to his disease. Now, this is disease can only be communicable through blood contact. This is why he doesn't want to get into a relationship, he knows just how easy it is for that to spread. One mistake and she has several problems including the potential to go into a hulk like rage and kill everything around her until she is put down. That also means her progression in several branches of magical arts, including her specialty of contacting the dead and otherworldly creatures, would be stopped and she would backslide to the point where she couldn't perform certain spells that came as easily to her as breathing. Another problem is social standing, she would be like the MC (Jude) and be on the lowest rung of the social structure. All of that creates a conflict in Jude, he has the natural human imperative to be in a relationship. He found someone that he wants to be in a relationship with. But at the same time he doesn't want to spread this disease at all. He doesn't want Steph to get it. He doesn't want to have kids so that they don't get it. That's why it can't happen earlier, Jude is being an idiot. A logical idiot but an idiot nonetheless.



skip.knox said:


> I ask this because it would help clarify the relationship of the love story (notice I did not say romance!) to the main plot. For example, does the main character need the declaration of love (however meant) in order to achieve something in the main plot? If so, where does that happen? Then that starts to dictate the pace at which the love story develops. OTOH, if the main plot can proceed without regard to the progress of the love story, then I begin to wonder if the love story is not indeed tacked on.



On to this point. All of what I wrote above leads to a very central characteristic of Jude, a deep need, stemming from his childhood, to belong. There is one member of his family that likes him and that is fairly recent. He has never really belonged. His family does not have the disease. So he lives away from others like him. However, his family hates him. He doesn't feel like he belongs. He has some camraderie and common interests but he is an outsider. He certainly cannot fit in with the non-diseased crowd unless he hids the fact he is diseased. The first place that gives him a sense of belonging is a terrorist organization. People respect him for him and for what he does and can do. He isn't looked down upon. He knows these people personally. He forged his own relationships there and he feels like he belongs. 

His love interest (Steph) however presents a second choice for finding a sense of belonging. It may be just with her but he will still belong somewhere. But, as it so happens, he cannot be with her and be a part of the terrorist organization. This question of whether Jude will chose her or them will come to a head right at the end. Instead of belonging with terrorists, who are also diseased, he will choose to belong with her.

Now, as for the question. Chesterama what is the difference between a Romance plot and a love story plot?

ETA: I forgot to mention that he hasn't told her that he is diseased. So far as she knows he is normal. This adds another problem for the relationship. He feels obligated to tell her if the relationship progresses, but he fears that if he does he will lose her. He does tell her, eventually, and she will get mad at him for not telling her sooner, but that just helps the bond grow stronger.


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## Penpilot (Sep 1, 2016)

From what I've heard, in broad strokes, I think the way you have the romance play out can work. Pay-off can mean a lot of things, but for me essentially, as long as I'm not getting the feeling that things are being dragged out unnecessarily, I'm fine with it.

If the pace of the relationship unfolding feels natural, based on circumstance, then I think you'll be fine.

Full disclosure here, this is similar pacing to the way I have my romantic subplot play out in one of my novels. The two characters meet under less than optimal circumstance. They interact. There's obvious chemistry, but neither is even considering the other as a potential romantic partner. 

As the story unfolds, their paths become more and more intertwined, but there's no concrete acknowledgement that there's an attraction between the two, because neither of them consciously knows it's there. Now, it's obvious when you read the story from the way they interact but there's nothing ever said aloud. 

The closest thing to it is one of them asks the other if they want to grab something to eat after they helped them out with something. But the other person doesn't hear them because they're busy doing something, and then the unfolding of their lives ends that opportunity for anything to really spark.

At the climax of the story, the MC has to make a choice that involves the romantic interest, and it helps to resolve their personal plot arc. But again, there's not concrete acknowledgement of their attraction until the last scene. They end up holding hands, and there's an obvious but indirect acknowledgement that there's something between them.

Again, as long as plot doesn't feel dragged out, and you're giving the reader something, even if it's just a nugget, I think you'll be fine.


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## Miskatonic (Sep 1, 2016)

I use it for character development, a source of conflict, etc. It doesn't become the focal point though, as I'm not writing stories geared towards the romance genre.


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## cydare (Sep 1, 2016)

One thing that tends to bother me about a lot of love stories is the 'only you' element, shown in a deeply passionate light. By that I mean that the characters have no other meaningful, positive relationships - or at least not ones that can come close to their bond with their significant other. This is often treated as a how things should be.

Firstly, I personally feel that platonic bonds with friends or family can be just as important as romantic ones. Secondly, if a character only has their romantic partner, they will lack a diverse support system that can help them tend to different emotional needs. It'll also put a lot of pressure on their partner and the relationship in general, since it's the only one they put so much energy in. They also may have a harder time establishing the right ways to show affection and enact boundaries. It's something that should be taken into account.

This is especially true in your case since it seems Steph is the only person standing between your main character and terrorism. That's a lot to put on someone's shoulders. This isn't necessarily a bad thing for your book - it can create conflict and push the story forward. I'm just mentioning it because I see a lot of situations like this glazed over.

Have you considered that Steph might not be just be an alternative all by herself, but a symbol? He sees she accepts and cares for him, and that's very important, but it also signifies that there may be other ways to gain other people's acceptance that aren't terrorists.

I think, giving your main characters other motivations for choosing this life would be good too. Not just, "if I'm with the terrorist group, Steph won't have me". Is the strong need to belong a character flaw? It seems that it may be, if taken to the point that he would choose this group if the girl he loved was okay with it.

Another suggestion - remember the characters are individuals. Give them conflict past the main troubles (disease and social standing). It doesn't have to be big arguments or anything like that - just things they disagree on because they're human, and different from one another. No one is perfect, and couples don't operate with a hive mind.

As to your original question - I like slow build. It makes it feel more natural to me. 
Make sure that when you build up the romance it's not just physical shows of affection (hand holding etc) but emotional connections.


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## FifthView (Sep 1, 2016)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> On to this point. All of what I wrote above leads to a very central characteristic of Jude, a deep need, stemming from his childhood, to belong. There is one member of his family that likes him and that is fairly recent. He has never really belonged. His family does not have the disease. So he lives away from others like him. However, his family hates him. He doesn't feel like he belongs. He has some camraderie and common interests but he is an outsider. He certainly cannot fit in with the non-diseased crowd unless he hids the fact he is diseased. The first place that gives him a sense of belonging is a terrorist organization. People respect him for him and for what he does and can do. He isn't looked down upon. He knows these people personally. He forged his own relationships there and he feels like he belongs.
> 
> His love interest (Steph) however presents a second choice for finding a sense of belonging. It may be just with her but he will still belong somewhere. But, as it so happens, he cannot be with her and be a part of the terrorist organization. This question of whether Jude will chose her or them will come to a head right at the end. Instead of belonging with terrorists, who are also diseased, he will choose to belong with her.



The reason I mentioned relationship to plot in my first comment was because your opening post seemed to imply that you have the option of solidifying the relationship earlier rather than later, but my tendency is to view that pivot as a BIG DEAL, affecting everything that comes after in some way.   If it didn't have much effect on the story, could be either/or, then...I wondered if maybe the relationship had been tagged on to the story merely to show something about your MC.

But you've clarified the importance of the relationship.

I think that the slow boil is probably precisely what you need.  As I see it, the story is something of a character story (MICE quotient) and the ultimate conflict is within your MC.  This is how you've described it.  So he has two choices that are incompatible.  I think it's a good idea to focus more on the one earlier in the book, then begin turning the focus more toward the option of an "out", than to try focusing strongly on both from an earlier point.

I do agree, strongly, with Penpilot:  I do not like romance/love/relationship subplots when I'm "getting the feeling that things are being dragged out unnecessarily."  So how you write it would make a huge difference for me.  That said—and I hate to even mention this, because in non-romance stories I really hate this—YA does seem to have a lot of the ridiculous angsty do I or don't I, she loves me she loves me not sort of development, with betrayals and misunderstandings aplenty.

If it were my tale to tell, then based on what you've written so far I'd establish very early that the answer to "Relationship?" is "No."  I.e., leave the reader feeling that there will be no romantic relationship formed between these two, or at least that that's not going to be what this story is about.  Because it's not really about that romantic relationship, is it?  It's about your MC's personal growth, his discovery of options for his life.  This is a thin line, perhaps, but I think it's important to know the difference.  But you can make the later acknowledgement of feelings and the MC's ultimate choice stronger if you've first explored those other aspects of his life and made the terrorist connection strong, a corner into which he's painted himself.  That said, you also can't just simply spring her forward as some sort of deus ex machina at the end of the story.  So I'd probably focus on building a friendship between them earlier, without much focus on the possibility of a romantic relationship—although, with subtle foreshadowing of something more.


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## glutton (Sep 1, 2016)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> Now, as for the question. Chesterama what is the difference between a Romance plot and a love story plot?



Chesterama is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong but as I understood it she interpreted a 'romance subplot' as a subplot meant to invoke the specific literary genre known as romance, whereas a love subplot could be about characters falling in love in any ways that don't necessarily follow the rather specific conventions of the 'romance' genre.


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## glutton (Sep 1, 2016)

Chesterama said:


> I'm not an expert, but only mentioned that I have experience with romance subplots. That's the truth and I'm not sure how there's anything wrong in having said that? I also stated at the beginning of my first post that there's a difference between love and romance. Assuming Brian meant a romance subplot, I simply shared what I know of the genre. I was only trying to help but sometimes I truly feel that my suggestions/comments are so easily dismissed on this site over and over again. And at the risk of sounding all emo...it makes me not want to share.



It would likely help to remember that not all people are equally aware of or in tune with genre-specific (or otherwise fairly specific) terminology ie. there is a dictionary or layman's definition of 'romance' that will come to mind for many before that of the romance 'genre'. A lot of people who say 'romance' subplot will just mean 'love' or 'romantic' subplot, the way you went off at DOTA made it seem like you felt he/she was *wrong* for not interpreting 'romance' as referring to the genre (as he/she clearly didn't, and Brian probably didn't mean if he is asking the difference between love and 'romance').

It's similar to how 'epic fantasy' refers among the genre-savvy to a specific subgenre that tends to involve a large cast, intricate world building, a wide scope, and long books (farmboys, prophecies, and dark lords common but optional)... but if somebody writes 'I have an epic fantasy novel about this ultra badass girl who wields a giant hammer and beats up Godzilla sized monsters with it' it would probably be appropriate not to jump to the conclusion the novel belongs to the 'epic fantasy' subgenre, but the author might just mean they've written a fantasy novel with the descriptor of 'epic' (because the heroine is... epic!)


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## skip.knox (Sep 1, 2016)

>the best way to pace subplots is to stick them in when you need a break from the main plot. 

Which begs the question of how one knows the main plot needs a break. I mean, I could argue that if the plot needs a break, it's the plot that needs fixing, not that it needs a subplot. IMO, the subplot must contribute to the main plot. So it comes in when it is needed in order to *advance* the main plot.

Then again, I'm still working on my first novel, so whadoiknow?


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## FifthView (Sep 1, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> >the best way to pace subplots is to stick them in when you need a break from the main plot.
> 
> Which begs the question of how one knows the main plot needs a break. I mean, I could argue that if the plot needs a break, it's the plot that needs fixing, not that it needs a subplot. IMO, the subplot must contribute to the main plot. So it comes in when it is needed in order to *advance* the main plot.
> 
> Then again, I'm still working on my first novel, so whadoiknow?



I wonder, would you say there's a difference between a "subplot" and what are commonly called "side quests?"


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## skip.knox (Sep 1, 2016)

Thanks, Brian. Clear answer. So clear, in fact, I doubt I can be much help. I do have a love story sub-plot, but at this point I don't know if it works because I have not had outside readers, except for the early stages. But here's how I handle it.

Inglena is a barbarian princess exiled because she can do magic, which her people revile. Marcus is First Tribune in a Roman Legion. He's in his early 40s, she's in her early 20s. The reader probably figures Inglena will connect with Julian, who is young and handsome and the Legion's commander, but he's also snarky and arrogant, and she's put off by that. Also because he simply assumes she'll like him. But having lived in exile, what really appeals to her is stability and strength, and these attributes Marcus has. So, by degrees, she is attracted to him. Also, she's quite fed up with all the advances from the young bravos among her own people, who regard her as a prize to be won.

As for Marcus, he thinks she's too pretty and too young, and he has a hard time overcoming his Roman prejudice against barbarians. But when she shows interest, and even more when she shows faith in him, he's vulnerable and his walls fall away. By story's end, Marcus retires from the Legion (after having saved the Empire, of course!) and goes with Inglena, who for her part has united the exiled magicians with the main tribes, and they go west together into Hispania. Marcus is sort of her prince consort.

I get from A to B by degrees, as I said. I try to use crisis points for this. They meet after a battle with goblins. There's a nice idyll when they are both outside their camps (Romans and barbarians camp separately) just checking on things. It is night, and Marcus tries to explain Roman constellations to her. Later he shows good sense as well as bravery in the first pitched battle with goblins, which she admires. In a later chapter, Inglena has to make a hard decision. Julian and others "advise" her, which means essentially telling her what she should do. But Marcus just listens. That's a key advance because it's the first intimacy.

I have a gap right now after that. Somehow I have to get to kissing and more serious physical contact, and I'm not sure of the context for that. By the time they get to the culminating battle scenes, which is a siege that lasts for days, they are lovers and comfort each other at the end of the day. Sometimes that's sex, but sometimes it's just being kind.

Anyway, the key is that events sort of drive the relationship. It's not at all unusual for war to bring people together who otherwise might not find each other. So I'm really doing the opposite of what I have said in other posts. The relationship doesn't drive the plot; the plot drives the relationship. I sometimes think I'll drop the thing entirely. Sometimes I think the love story should be Inglena and Julian (that's the way it started). But I like Marcus, and so far his relationship with Inglena is rather sweet, so I'm keeping it in until my beta readers tell me it just doesn't work.


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## Peat (Sep 1, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> >the best way to pace subplots is to stick them in when you need a break from the main plot.
> 
> *Which begs the question of how one knows the main plot needs a break.* I mean, I could argue that if the plot needs a break, it's the plot that needs fixing, not that it needs a subplot. IMO, the subplot must contribute to the main plot. So it comes in when it is needed in order to *advance* the main plot.
> 
> Then again, I'm still working on my first novel, so whadoiknow?



Aye, there's the rub all right. 

I'd disagree with the idea that if the plot needs a break, then it needs fixing rather than subplot. Its probably true sometimes but I don't think it always is. 

Lets say you have a giant fight. Your characters are sent to the hospital. They can't pursue the main plot immediately, because they're in hospital. You can have a time passes section - or you can rewrite it so they're not in the hospital (but if you always do that it may weaken reader investment) - or you have them talk over a subplot while in hospital. I think that's a case where the plot is fine but having a subplot to fill the natural time lapse in the plot is good.

An even stronger case is when something dramatic has happened in the plot and you want to stretch out the suspense before telling the reader the outcome. You see writers do that a lot by switching PoV (but then, aren't PoVs a sort of subplot in themselves?) but having the character deal with subplot can work just as well.

Or maybe its the evening before a major battle, everyone's being sombre, but being sombre alone isn't that interesting - stick in some subplot!

Note that none of this precludes the subplot contributing to the main plot. The love expressed the evening before the battle could provide the hero with the motivation to survive. The laundry carried out for the Mafia boss could provide the patronage needed for the hero to survive revealing that it was the Banker wot done it. The chat about why the High Priest wants to interfere in the Quest when in hospital could provide an insight that later allows the Quest to continue. And so on. 

You don't *have* to only put subplot in the narrative gaps. But I do think its a good starting place. If you look at it and its wrong, you can always move it again, but it gives you something to look at in the first place. And I think some of it will be in the right place if you do it this way.

Disclaimer: This post could be utterly wrong...  but hey, its a starting place for us to figure out what's right


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## skip.knox (Sep 1, 2016)

I should talk. I have several sub-plots in my WIP. Mostly these are not side-quests but are other participants. The story centers around a massive invasion of the Roman Empire, so I pick up other individuals from time to time. Each plays a role in the main story, but also adds resonance (I hope!) to the world. 

The sub-plots come from rather inexcusable sources. I wanted to show an ordinary person reacting to the invasion and wound up with an eleven year old girl in the company of a Roman war dog. I needed to create a way for the goblins to cross the Danube River (they can't swim and cannot use boats) and wound up with a simpleton called Fist who becomes a hero in a bad cause (he's the one who ensures the goblins get into the Empire). I created a pal for Julian back in Constantinople who came and went from the story, but now is firmly a part of the final siege. 

I keep telling myself to knock it off. Keep the spotlight on the star. But these other characters keep sneaking on stage and stealing scenes. Lack of discipline, I suppose.


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## Peat (Sep 1, 2016)

If it is a lack, it is one you are in good company with. There's no shortage of top authors who've done the same thing. And sometimes those diversions end up stealing the story.


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## Penpilot (Sep 2, 2016)

From my understanding, taking a break from the main plot is generally but not always necessary. Why? In some ways, it's like hearing the same tune being played over and over, soon or later you need a break from it, a change of pace. Too much of a good thing and all that jazz.

The change of pace allows one to come back to the original plot with renewed vigor. In addition, subplots are supposed to support the main plot. So having them allows you to give the reader a change of pace, and it allows you to support the main plot without actually advancing or adding to it directly.

For example. Let's say we have a standard boy meets girl story. Boy gets the girl then loses her after a big disagreement. Now instead of having him pine and whine for her until he figures a way to win her back, lets delve in to a subplot. Let's say the subplot is about the friendly old man living next door who lost his dog.

The boy helps the old man find his dog and along the way the old man tells him how stupid he was. He made one little mistake and it nearly cost him someone he loved, but because he never gave up, he now has a second chance.

Now armed with a little lesson learned the boy returns back to the main plot and goes off to make things right with the girl.


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## FifthView (Sep 2, 2016)

Penpilot said:


> From my understanding, taking a break from the main plot is generally but not always necessary. Why? In some ways, it's like hearing the same tune being played over and over, soon or later you need a break from it, a change of pace. Too much of a good thing and all that jazz.
> 
> The change of pace allows one to come back to the original plot with renewed vigor. In addition, subplots are supposed to support the main plot. So having them allows you to give the reader a change of pace, and it allows you to support the main plot without actually advancing or adding to it directly.
> 
> ...



I think subplots and side quests are different things and serve slightly different purposes, although both should be important to the story in some way and they can accomplish similar things.

I'm not sure the terms can be formalized easily (especially _side quest_), but I tend to think of them in this way:

A subplot runs in tandem with the main plot, parallel to it, sometimes intersecting it directly but always in support of the main plot (although it can have an antagonistic effect on the characters' pathway.)  A subplot will begin sometime after the beginning and may end sometime before the main plot is resolved—or at the same time—but it typically lasts longer than a side quest.  Its purpose is to add depth to the story:  depth to the world, depth to a character, depth/complexity to the plot, and often all three of these.

A side quest is much shorter and typically involves some new hurdle to be overcome, a new temporary goal, and is more likely to be a stronger diversion from the main plot or at least make the plotline less of a straight line and more like a zigzag with curlicues.  So for instance, our group of heroes is on a quest to defeat Mr. Evil Wizard and they stop at a tavern on the road to Mr. Evil Wizard's mansion in the hills and—all their gear is stolen in the middle of the night.  So they hunt it down the next day.  Side quest.  Then they continue on their path to Mr. Evil Wizard.  Side quests don't need to be random encounters, they can also be of the variety "We need to steal this magic sword from the home of Mr. Mayor before we set off on our quest to defeat Mr. Wizard, because we'll need it for any chance of success."  

So the example of the boy learning that the old man has lost his dog and deciding to help the old man find it, and learning a lesson, sounds to me like a side quest rather than a subplot.  

IF, however, that old man has been a recurring figure always butting into the boy's business, asking him what he's up to, and the boy hates interacting with nosey/helpful adults, then the subplot could be this developing relationship with the old man and/or the boy's maturing into someone who can interact with adults. Finding the dog would be one event (a side quest perhaps) in that subplot. This would be something developed over a longer span than a simple hunt for a lost dog.

At least, this is how I look at it.  

Any time we focus on characters involved in some activity that is not directly related to the main plot...is like an interlude.  But this can even describe a bit of relaxation and conversation around a campfire on the way to kill Mr. Evil Wizard.


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## Penpilot (Sep 2, 2016)

FifthView said:


> At least, this is how I look at it.



A little clarification and some thoughts of my own. First, the example with the old man I gave would definitely be something that doesn't just pop up. It would have to run in parallel and twine with the main plot.

As for side quests vs subplots. Subplots are well... plots... with their own beginning, middle, and end, how ever abbreviated or subtle the may be. Side quests, which I hadn't really thought of as a thing until now, as you described sounds to me just a part of the try-fail cycle of the main plot. 

As described, the side quest sounds like just another obstacle/setback to overcome on the way to the end, so to me it looks like just a part of the main plot.


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## FifthView (Sep 2, 2016)

Penpilot said:


> A little clarification and some thoughts of my own. First, the example with the old man I gave would definitely be something that doesn't just pop up. It would have to run in parallel and twine with the main plot.
> 
> As for side quests vs subplots. Subplots are well... plots... with their own beginning, middle, and end, how ever abbreviated or subtle the may be. Side quests, which I hadn't really thought of as a thing until now, as you described sounds to me just a part of the try-fail cycle of the main plot.
> 
> As described, the side quest sounds like just another obstacle/setback to overcome on the way to the end, so to me it looks like just a part of the main plot.



I hadn't thought much about side quests until I listened to this podcast from Writing Excuses: Writing Excuses 9.24: Side Quests | Writing Excuses

My own views may be slightly different than theirs, but if so not by much I think.

So a question.  How are these substantially different:


Breaking into the Mayor's house to steal a magic sword that will help advance the main plot (will be important later)
Going on a quest to find a missing dog in order to gain The Lesson that will help advance the main plot

For me, Magic Sword and The Lesson are quite similar. These are things that need to be acquired in order to move forward in the main plot.

Side quests can be used in other ways, however.  One is to reveal some new information to the characters and/or the readers.  So take my previous example, a band of adventurers is robbed and must go on a side quest to retrieve their belongings before they can continue on their quest to kill the Evil Wizard.  I think that merely introducing something random like that to fill up the pages or out of a desire to make the main quest seem full of roadblocks is not enough; it needs to be relevant to the story in some way.  So let's say that while they are on their quest to retrieve their stolen belongings, they spot their guide speaking with one of the villain's henchmen and exchanging money. Uh oh.  Something about the character of that guide is being revealed.

Another side quest in another novel might be the MC heading into town with a new acquaintance on a chore for the stable master and seeing that new acquaintance react with absolute rage and violence when some town kid is getting beat up by bullies.  This will become important later in the story.

I think that this topic probably deserves a thread of its own, but I'll tie it back into the topic of this thread.  The reason the distinction occurred to me was because of my original comment in this thread and some subsequent discussion.  So, how is the romance/love story worked into the tale? As


Main Plot (Romance genre)
Subplot
Side Quest

I'd originally written this:



FifthView said:


> I can add a personal note.  I am almost always irritated by an unnecessary romance plugged into most types of story.  What is or is not "necessary" will depend, of course, on the type of story and the purpose the romance serves.
> 
> I almost feel that yours might be a case of this:  she & the romance are a character-building foil for your MC.  The romance, its development or lack thereof for the majority of the book, how it turns out—these things don't affect the plot significantly?  By affecting the plot I mean even tangentially by affecting what the MC does or does not do at any given point in the story.
> 
> But as Skip said, "insufficient data for meaningful answer."



With the discussion that followed about the Romance genre vs a love story subplot, I began to question what I meant by the above.  I _think_ (early days yet) that I was pointing my accusatory finger at romantic elements added as a side quest.  The only reason the romance is plugged into a story is to show something about the MC's character—most likely something we already know or can learn without the need for a romantic side quest, like he's an insecure, babbling idiot around girls.*

I think that when we add elements to a story, or decide to reveal something, knowing whether to use a subplot or a side quest or to make those elements the main plot is important.  (For example, for BSA, is the story _about_ that relationship—main plot—or is the tale a character story, about the MC's life and development, and the romance is a subplot that adds depth/complexity to the characters and plot, as I wondered in a previous comment?  Important question, I think.)

As a better-safe-than-sorry caveat, I'll add that there may not be anything wrong with a romantic side quest....but only I think that maybe I have an aversion to those, at least of a type of romantic side quest.

*Edit:  Not that I thought presenting a babbling idiot was Brian's intention.  The opening post did have me wondering if the romance was only going to be a tagged-on additional presentation of his troubled physical and mental state, something that a romance wouldn't be needed for.  But he expanded and clarified his intentions later.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Sep 4, 2016)

I haven't been keeping up with this discussion anymore, so I'm not totally sure what's going on, but I have something to add to the whole "romance as a subplot" thing. 

I seem to think of subplots in a different way than other people here on MS. I've seen a lot of complicated talk of structure and intertwining them with the main plot and finding out how they support the story...

The way I see it, subplots take over during lulls in the main plot. They're undercurrents in scenes where the main plot is the main focus, but when the main plot is stalled the subplots take center stage. The main plot can't keep barreling along at full speed continuously throughout the story. 

Romance/love storylines do function as subplots. But, they are also facets of the characters' development. I don't see them in the same problem-->goal fashion I see other subplots. I don't see my characters' relationships as having goals. I mean, sure, get the girl/guy...but instead of being just something the character pursues, I see it as something that affects them and changes them, if that makes any sense. It's a part of them.


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## Russ (Sep 6, 2016)

Subplots are interesting things.  My perspective is that unless their resolution has some material impact on the resolution of the main plot they are just at the level of extraneous diversions.  I do tend to like my writing fairly lean however.


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## Devor (Sep 6, 2016)

I'm sorry to see that we've had a little bit of drama here.  @Chesterama, @DragonOfTheAerie, I do hope you could try to give each other a little bit more of the the benefit of the doubt.

I rather like Chesterama's points on running a strong Romance plot.  But it's kind of like the Hero's Journey and some of the other story structure layouts people offer.  The biggest thing that they offer is the framework for discussing and developing these plotlines, more than the strict formula.  That's especially true for a novel where we have more room to develop the twists and turns of a story the way that we want to, or for a subplot which may need a resolution but might not need as many twists or layers.

@DragonOfTheAerie, I think you are taking the idea that two characters have to be attracted to each other right away far too much at face value.  If you've read Harry Potter, Rowling has indicated and many fans have noticed that Ron and Hermione are clearly drawn to each other in the first book, even though neither of them realize it.  Each of them just cares a little too much what the other one is doing.  That basic level of attraction is chemical, and it's been my experience that this is pretty typical in real life as well.  It doesn't have to be an obvious or even a conscious attraction, but I do think it should usually be there.


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