# The Mentor of the Main Character



## thecoldembrace (Jun 17, 2014)

It is a common staple of myth and legend in our world. Arthur had Merlin, Luke had Ben and so on. I have my own mentor for my main character who is quite deranged, and slightly beyond cracked in the head from having lived beyond a kilennium and is practically a demigod. 

I'm curious as to what others have constructed for mentor's for their characters, if you have any at all. If you don't have one, what made you choose to not include one?

More importantly, how do you portray them in your writing?

-Cold


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## Jabrosky (Jun 17, 2014)

The whole mentor archetype sounds best suited to coming-of-age stories where the hero starts out inexperienced and needs some guidance to help them accomplish what they must. That's all well and good if you're interested in coming-of-age, but I gravitate more towards heroes who have already developed a certain degree of strength or competence by the story's beginning. For example, if I'm writing an adventure story, I'd rather start with a well-trained warrior than a naive farm-boy. Besides, lots of skills take years to develop.


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## Penpilot (Jun 17, 2014)

A mentor character exists in most stories, believe it or not. Sometimes they're prominent and obvious characters like Merlin. Other times, they're a less obvious character that helps the MC in tiny but significant way. Maybe they give the MC an example of what to do or what not to do. Maybe they dish out a timely piece of advice. The possibilities are endless.

In Jaws, the mentor is Quint.
In Mallrats, it's Stan Lee.
In Alien it's Ash.


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## ThinkerX (Jun 18, 2014)

Hmmm...

The wizard Lysander has two Mentors, the first Edward Chain, a rather puritanical sorcerer with a dark secret; the second the half-elf artist magician and serial womanizer Danilov.

Toki, another wizard in another land, has 'Master Victor' for a mentor, though that doesn't last long.  His hobgoblin companion Hock-Nar is more or less mentor-less.

Titus Maximus, a military officer, had superiors, but no real mentors. Instead, he had his hulking companion Casein.


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## CupofJoe (Jun 18, 2014)

Penpilot said:


> In Alien it's Ash.


Hmm? Mentor? I'm not so sure. He's the one with the information, to be sure, but he offers little active support to the protagonists and actively aids the Alien/antagonist. Or did you mean that Ash was the Alien's mentor? That I can see.

I like a good Mentor. If for no other reason that it can make exposition easier. Sherlock Holmes needs Dr Watson to explain his incredible leaps of deduction to us mere mortals...
A couple of times I have tried using a failed/world-weary Priest as a Mentor. 
I like the mix of the spiritual and real-world experience that it gives me. Shepherd Book (from Firefly & Serenity) would be a good example of what I mean.
They can also be usefully done-in if you want a crisis for your hero... make it bloody and/or pointless...


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## Penpilot (Jun 18, 2014)

CupofJoe said:


> Hmm? Mentor? I'm not so sure. He's the one with the information, to be sure, but he offers little active support to the protagonists and actively aids the Alien/antagonist. Or did you mean that Ash was the Alien's mentor? That I can see.



No, Ash is Ripely's Mentor. It's been a while since I've seen the movie, so some of the details are fuzzy, but it goes something like this. Ripley and Ash are set off as polar opposites. In the beginning Ripley is the loner set apart from the crew. She's shown to be almost inhuman because she didn't want to let the infected crew back into the ship. Ash is very much apart of the crew and is the one who shows "compassion" in letting the infected crew back onto the ship.

It is through Ash's actions and interactions that Ripley's more human side is brought out. Like I said he's not a mentor in the traditional Obi-Wan sense, but it's through him that Ripley learns to be more human. Why else would she save the cat.


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## CupofJoe (Jun 18, 2014)

Penpilot said:


> Why else would she save the cat.


He's the only one left?
I'm still not sold on the idea of Ash as Ripley's Mentor but I can see what you mean - without Ash, Ripley doesn't get to develop. But I don't think his aim is to enlighten her, to make her change. That is an accidental result of the events.
 For me a Mentor has to be somewhat of an active [good or bad] influence on the Hero... it shouldn't be a by-product...


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## Feo Takahari (Jun 18, 2014)

Unless they're the villain, I never do characters who teach younger characters to kill and don't do any killing themselves. If they have the knowledge and training to fight the villain, it seems unconscionable to send "teenagers with attitude" to do the job instead. (I sometimes use "old-timer" characters, but they're active protagonists with their own flaws and character arcs.)

Edit: To be more clear on this, I sometimes do villains who train followers for their own purposes, with those followers becoming the protagonists. Other times, the protagonists teach and guide each other.


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## Penpilot (Jun 18, 2014)

CupofJoe said:


> For me a Mentor has to be somewhat of an active [good or bad] influence on the Hero... it shouldn't be a by-product...



If this way of looking at things doesn't work for you, then it doesn't. There are dozens of ways to look at a story and the elements in them. None of them are gospel. It's just a different way of slicing the pie, and regardless, the whole pie is still there. I just find it useful to be able to look at a story in different ways, especially my own. From one angle the story may look fine, but from another, its imperfections may be more visible.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 18, 2014)

Penpilot, words and terms mean things and you can't just change the meaning of the words to suit yourself. A Mentor character in literature is a character with a certain type of relationship with the hero. The term comes from the character named Mentor in The Odyssey. Athena appears to Odysseus in the guise of his trusted friend Mentor, to whom he gave charge over his son and his palace, in order to aid him along his adventure. Though the term came into use as we know it today due to a French novel that tells the story of Telemachus and focuses particularly on the teachings and advice given to him by Mentor. A Mentor is a trusted counselor/teacher to the hero and also sometimes giver of important gifts/aid. A Mentor is not just any character whose actions may cause growth in the main character. 

I have one very important Mentor figure that appears in pretty much all my stories. He is not the Mentor of any particular character exclusively, but sees it as his duty to Mentor any person who has a strong potential to have a large impact on the history of the world. He also happens to be the God of Memory.


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## Penpilot (Jun 19, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> Penpilot, words and terms mean things and you can't just change the meaning of the words to suit yourself.



I didn't just arbitrarily change the meaning of anything to suit myself. There are hundreds of books on writing theory and this way of looking at what a mentor is is from one of them.

Again, like I said, there isn't one gospel way of defining things in story. There are many-many-many theories out there, all of them equally useful or useless depending on the individual. Take the ones that are useful to you and discard the rest.


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## Saphirion (Jun 19, 2014)

Feo Takahari said:


> Unless they're the villain, I never do characters who teach younger characters to kill and don't do any killing themselves. If they have the knowledge and training to fight the villain, it seems unconscionable to send "teenagers with attitude" to do the job instead.



As a reader, I totally agree with Feo. If the mentor is capable of doing the job, why do I have to follow some bratty kid around? In a terrible book I read recently, the mentor not only had the power (until plot conveniently required he didn't) but he also had FOREKNOWLEDGE of everything and dropped "mysterious hints" but never did anything to stop what was coming from happening. So, there would be an example of how not to write a mentor.

As a writer, I can see the argument that there are mentors in every story. I never deliberately write a mentor, but since my MCs need to learn something, a character ends up teaching or advising them. It works in other stories - Star Wars, LotR, ect. - but I don't usually like mentors who "hover" around the protagonist, watching over them as the grow, "waiting until the MC is ready." That's why I write mentors that interact with the MC, but have their own goals, jobs, objectives, or whatever. Basically a life apart from the MC (unless the MC is family).

The mentor for one story is actually the adopted mother of the MC. And her mentoring is slightly flawed as some of what she wants to teach the MC isn't good for the MC. (She's a dragon, MC is human.) But the mentor believes she's doing these things for the MC's good. In another story, the mentor is a ship captain that "takes the MC under his wing" when the MC strikes out with his own ship. Now that I think about it, he's also a flawed mentor but the MC is both older and more objective towards his advice.


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## thecoldembrace (Jun 19, 2014)

I have a mentor who basically acts as the behind the scenes puppet. He both teaches and uses the MC to his own ends, whether noble or not. There is a lot of vengeance and hate that fills the mentor, especially for the MC's family and people, while the mentor tries to keep his own people from acting in the revenge schemes that might cost more (in his eyes) precious lives. 
  So in a way my MC is a pawn to his schemes.

I think if a mentor has the power to do things, there may be reasons why they do not directly act. Doing so might cause people they care about to get caught in the crossfire. There are always reasons why powerful people fail to act.

-Cold


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## Sheriff Woody (Jun 19, 2014)

Jabrosky said:


> ...I gravitate more towards heroes who have already developed a certain degree of strength or competence by the story's beginning.



Every story is a journey for the hero, and if your hero has nowhere to go or nothing to develop internally, then what is the purpose of your story?

The mentor is the character that has already accomplished what the hero is struggling with, and can therefore provide assistance in getting the hero to develop and arc. 

Not every story provides a mentor character, but every good story has the hero change.


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## Jabrosky (Jun 20, 2014)

Sheriff Woody said:


> Every story is a journey for the hero, and if your hero has nowhere to go or nothing to develop internally, then what is the purpose of your story?
> 
> The mentor is the character that has already accomplished what the hero is struggling with, and can therefore provide assistance in getting the hero to develop and arc.
> 
> Not every story provides a mentor character, but every good story has the hero change.


There are many dimensions in which a character may "grow". A character could start out experienced in one area but need growth in another. What I was reacting against in my original post was the stereotype of the wimpy adolescent farm-boy who starts out with barely any skills pertinent to adventuring or whatever.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 20, 2014)

Penpilot said:


> I didn't just arbitrarily change the meaning of anything to suit myself. There are hundreds of books on writing theory and this way of looking at what a mentor is is from one of them.
> 
> Again, like I said, there isn't one gospel way of defining things in story. There are many-many-many theories out there, all of them equally useful or useless depending on the individual. Take the ones that are useful to you and discard the rest.



The idea of "many-many-many" definitions for a literary term is sheer nonsense. Words mean things. Terminology is used to convey knowledge and understanding. You can't do that if a word or term can have a huge variety of differing meanings. Characters who directly or indirectly aid the MC can be written in many ways, but that doesn't make them "Mentors". 

But perhaps you can provide a quotation from the book that says a Mentor is any character who directly or indirectly helps the MC change in even a small way. Or at least a reference for the book. I'd be interested to see what book/author is promoting such a definition.



Sheriff Woody said:


> Every story is a journey for the hero, and if your hero has nowhere to go or nothing to develop internally, then what is the purpose of your story?



I would say rather that every story is a journey for the _*reader*_. The ways in which readers can be taken on that journey are infinite. One of the primary ways is through growth and development of the hero over the course of the story. But it is not the only way.


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## JamieMaltman (Jun 20, 2014)

I have a few plays on the mentor in my series so far.

In book one, the main character meets another equal who is further along in getting to know how to use magic, and then she introduces him to her mentor. 

Then in book two there's another new mentor on one side, and the villain has a sneaky mentor like thecoldembrace mentioned above. 

And in book three, there's yet another one coming.

But one twist I have on this is that all of them are working from incomplete information, so in some cases they're making things up as they go along.


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## Trick (Jun 20, 2014)

thecoldembrace said:


> I have a mentor who basically acts as the behind the scenes puppet. He both teaches and uses the MC to his own ends, whether noble or not. There is a lot of vengeance and hate that fills the mentor, especially for the MC's family and people, while the mentor tries to keep his own people from acting in the revenge schemes that might cost more (in his eyes) precious lives.
> So in a way my MC is a pawn to his schemes.
> 
> I think if a mentor has the power to do things, there may be reasons why they do not directly act. Doing so might cause people they care about to get caught in the crossfire. There are always reasons why powerful people fail to act.
> ...



A little like 


Spoiler: A character in a Joe Abercrombie book



Bayaz


which is a compliment btw.


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## Penpilot (Jun 20, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> The idea of "many-many-many" definitions for a literary term is sheer nonsense. Words mean things. Terminology is used to convey knowledge and understanding. You can't do that if a word or term can have a huge variety of differing meanings. Characters who directly or indirectly aid the MC can be written in many ways, but that doesn't make them "Mentors".



Words can have different meaning depending on the context in which they're used. In specific fields of study words take on meaning that go beyond the common everyday lexicon. Take for instance the word "Theory". It has an every day conversational meaning and it also has a specific meaning when used in the field of science. The word "Class" has a common meaning but when used in the field of computer science, it can have a different meaning.

So when someone writes a book with a specific view of story, they sometimes define things differently within the context of their theory. It's not confusing, nor does it hamper knowledge or understanding, as long as you know the context.

As for literary terms. From this wiki article, ( Literary element - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), it says the following about literary elements like plot and character.



> There is no official definition or fixed list of terms of literary elements; however, they are a common feature of literary education at the primary and secondary level, and a set of terms similar to the one below often appears in institutional student evaluation.





Mythopoet said:


> But perhaps you can provide a quotation from the book that says a Mentor is any character who directly or indirectly helps the MC change in even a small way. Or at least a reference for the book. I'd be interested to see what book/author is promoting such a definition.




Here it's from a book series called Save the Cat, specifically Save the Cat Goes to the Movies. Here's the link to Amazon.
Save the Cat! Goes to the Movies: The Screenwriter's Guide to Every Story Ever Told: Blake Snyder: 9781932907353: Amazon.com: Books

And now a quote.



> There are other fine points that go with many a MITH (MITH being a type of story called Monster in the House). A character that shows up in a lot of these films is one I call the Half-Man. This is a survivor who has run into the monster before--or  has prior knowledge of the evil--and come away damaged because of it. Robert Shaw as Quint is the Half Man in Jaws; Scatman Crothers is the Half Man in The Shining; and Ian Holm as Ash in Alien is not only Half Man but also half robot! From a practical screenwriting point of view, the Half Man allows us to reveal the myth of the monster--and give the hero a hint about what dealing with the monster entails. Many of these Half Man characters wind up dying at the "All Is Lost" moment on page 75 and are the "flawed mentors" of each story, warning us because of their deaths... about the horror that awaits.



Also from a book from 45 master characters 45 Master Characters: Victoria Schmidt: 9781582975221: Books - Amazon.ca

Here are some examples of what it calls The Mentor that don't fit the standard model.

 - Gordon Gekko in Wallstreet, the tycoon who mentors and seduces the hero into dishonest trading practices
 - Katherine Parker in Working Girl. She tells the hero to trust her and then gives the boss the hero's ideas as if they were her own.

The book goes on to give another set of examples of what a mentor is, one of which is "The expert on whatever information the hero needs, as long as he's excited to share the information and help."


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## Sheriff Woody (Jun 21, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> I would say rather that every story is a journey for the _*reader*_.



Yes, by living vicariously through the characters. And if the character's don't grow or learn, then what does the reader learn?

If, for example, you want to take your reader on an adventure, then you need a character to go on that same adventure. 

I think we're getting a bit off topic, but to reign in back in, the mentor exists to guide the hero on his or her journey of change. Mentors can exist in many forms other than the hooded old sage, just as heroes can exist in many forms other than seemingly-talentless farm boy.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 22, 2014)

Penpilot, clearly these are people who think they can just redefine a literary archetype in order to allow themselves to make clever observations in books they are selling. You seem to agree that they can just do that. I disagree. Words have meaning and names have power and if you just change them when you feel like it significant communication is impossible. I do not think the term Mentor, in the sense of the literary archetype (other contexts were never in question), should have any meanings that clearly contradict with the classical meaning. But I realize I won't convince you of that. You like the clever definitions. So I won't argue it anymore other than to say those examples are just wrong. End of story. They aren't Mentors.



Sheriff Woody said:


> Yes, by living vicariously through the characters. And if the character's don't grow or learn, then what does the reader learn?



A reader can learn from any story that presents them with an experience they haven't had before. It doesn't matter how much or how little the characters change. It matters whether the reader is presented with new experiences. It's not the same as "living vicariously".


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## Svrtnsse (Jun 22, 2014)

I have a mentor-like character in my WIP. It's Rolf, the father in the family where my MC (Enar) stays as a guest while on vacation. Rolf is a typical countryside patriarch. He's cheerful and confident and explains about life in the hillsides to Enar, who's lived all his life in the city and who's a bit insecure and outside of his comfort zone.

Rolf doesn't actively do a lot of teaching/mentoring, but he's something of a role model for Enar, both in what he does and says and in who he is (a father of a big happy family). Rolf is also the source of a lot of backstory and other kinds of infodumping.


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## Feo Takahari (Jun 22, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> Penpilot, clearly these are people who think they can just redefine a literary archetype in order to allow themselves to make clever observations in books they are selling. You seem to agree that they can just do that. I disagree. Words have meaning and names have power and if you just change them when you feel like it significant communication is impossible. I do not think the term Mentor, in the sense of the literary archetype (other contexts were never in question), should have any meanings that clearly contradict with the classical meaning. But I realize I won't convince you of that. You like the clever definitions. So I won't argue it anymore other than to say those examples are just wrong. End of story. They aren't Mentors.



For the purposes of this thread, I don't think it matters who's "technically a mentor" and who's "technically not a mentor." Sure, "mentor" is the word in the thread title, but what folks actually seem to be talking about is characters the MC learns from. Woody's talking about characters the MC learns from, so the things he's saying are things that other writers could potentially make use of for the topic at hand.

(This is amusingly similar to arguments over who is and isn't a "person of color.")


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## thecoldembrace (Jun 22, 2014)

To kind of get things back on track, I am still curious as to how any of you use a mentor in a unique way. What has been done to make that "mentor" archetype less visible yet still there? How have others redefined this type of character that you found interesting?

-Cold


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## Svrtnsse (Jun 22, 2014)

I should probably say that Rolf in my stories wasn't planned as a mentor character, he sort of just came to fill that role.

I'm not sure he's very unique or special, but he does the job.
At one point Enar gets to tag along to help Rolf with a village chore: they're repairing a hole in the roof of a building. Rolf does most of the actual work. He's the one who fixes the roof, but Enar gets to help out; he holds the ladder steady and hands Rolf the tools he needs.
The purpose here isn't to teach Enar to mend roofs, it's to let him be a part of the team.


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## Penpilot (Jun 22, 2014)

Sorry for this people, this will be my last post on this.



Mythopoet said:


> Penpilot, clearly these are people who think they can just redefine a literary archetype in order to allow themselves to make clever observations in books they are selling.



I've ignored this twice already but I don't think I'm going to ignore it a third time. Why is it every post you start with an ad hominem attack of some sort?

First you say this.


Mythopoet said:


> Penpilot, words and terms mean things and you can't just change the meaning of the words to suit yourself.



You don't question where I get my information or ask for clarification. You basically call me a bulls!itter, that I'm arbitrarily making spit up. 

Then you say this.



Mythopoet said:


> The idea of "many-many-many" definitions for a literary term is sheer nonsense.



Again, basically saying I'm BSing. 

When you're trying to argue a point or convince someone of something, it doesn't lend to your credibility when you start with a logical fallacy.

When I present evidence to support my points from two respected books, you dismiss the authors as just some people trying to sound clever to sell books. Don't you find that a bit "kettle-calling-the-pot-black" considering on this board many of us, and I'm assuming you too, on it are hoping to be in the business of selling books by being clever in some way?

Why is it that when something doesn't support your view of things it just gets dismissed as something other than an honest and legitimate point of view? It doesn't get argued against. It's just dismissed. 



Mythopoet said:


> Words have meaning and names have power and if you just change them when you feel like it significant communication is impossible.



Language isn't static. It evolves whether you like it or not. Definitions broaden and words gain different meaning. There are many-many-many examples of this in language today. Take the word "Pants" in North America it has one meaning and in the UK it means underwear. Same with words like Slag, [email protected], and Bender. Bender is another word for homosexual in the UK, which made for a pretty amusing time when the movie 'The Last Airbender" came out there.

With all these different meanings of words between NA and UK, does it really hamper significant communication between someone who's British and someone who's American? IMHO not in the least. Why? Because of context. As long as a person understands the context in which a word is being used, confusion won't be a problem. All a person has to do is ask for clarification if things are unclear.



Mythopoet said:


> I do not think the term Mentor, in the sense of the literary archetype (other contexts were never in question), should have any meanings that clearly contradict with the classical meaning.



Soooo... who made you the arbiter of what should and should not be? I showed you my sources and why I think the way I think, and I've even shown you a source that says there are not official definitions for literary elements. Where are your sources that state there is only one forever-unchanging set of gospel definitions?



Mythopoet said:


> But I realize I won't convince you of that. You like the clever definitions. So I won't argue it anymore other than to say those examples are just wrong. End of story. They aren't Mentors.



To convince anybody of anything, you must put forth an good argument. So far all you've done is present ad hominem attacks, present the origin of the word mentor, say words can't have multiple meanings or evolve because nobody will understand what anyone else is talking about, and then you put your foot down by saying, "End of Story."

Sorry man, not a convincing argument in the least.

I don't ever tell anyone that my point of view or the point of view of these books is gospel and that everyone should follow them. They are just a different way of looking at things, and I brought up a broader definition because the original poster was interested in the different ways mentors are portrayed.

But apparently, unknown to my ignorant self, there is only one strict definition of what a mentor is and everyone should follow that blindly.

I'd like to apologize to everyone, especially the original poster, for jacking the thread a bit. But hopefully somewhere among this mess you can find some useful food for thought.

With everything you'll read, hear, and learn about writing, know there is no gospel. Take what you like and what makes sense to you. Discard the rest, but always keep your mind open to a different way of looking at things, even if you don't agree with it.


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## Penpilot (Jun 22, 2014)

thecoldembrace said:


> To kind of get things back on track, I am still curious as to how any of you use a mentor in a unique way. What has been done to make that "mentor" archetype less visible yet still there? How have others redefined this type of character that you found interesting?
> 
> -Cold



In the novel I just finished. I used a group of old friends as a collective mentor. Each of the friends learned lessons about themselves during the story, or before the story started, so they each had something to teach the main character. Their collective lessons added up to an eventual change in my main character.


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## Feo Takahari (Jun 22, 2014)

Penpilot said:


> In the novel I just finished. I used a group of old friends as a collective mentor. Each of the friends learned lessons about themselves during the story, or before the story started, so they each had something to teach the main character. Their collective lessons added up to an eventual change in my main character.



This is what I usually do, especially with large casts.


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## ScipioSmith (Jun 23, 2014)

Feo Takahari said:


> Unless they're the villain, I never do characters who teach younger characters to kill and don't do any killing themselves. If they have the knowledge and training to fight the villain, it seems unconscionable to send "teenagers with attitude" to do the job instead. (I sometimes use "old-timer" characters, but they're active protagonists with their own flaws and character arcs.)



I play with this a little bit: my mentor figure has no doubt about his ability to kill the villain, and in fact plans to do just that. His concern, and his need for the hero, is with what comes after. The mentor has rendered himself unacceptable as the Empire's champion, but he feels passionately that someone is needed to take up the post and so, having originally picked up the hero solely to use his blood for something, he becomes convinced that the hero is the right man for the job and works to mold his personality so that he will take up the position. 

Meanwhile, the villain also acts as mentor to the other protagonist, molding her to become willing to destroy the Empire by allowing her to see what it is really like.


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## Trick (Jun 23, 2014)

I set out to go without a mentor in my WIP and ended up with two... 

My MC is a young thief and his first mentor is the head of his thieving crew and the crime lord's personal assassin. He teaches the MC how to survive working in a life of crime and then how to kill. To address previous posts, he still kills people but this is a sort of apprentice situation. He is a snarky sarcastic faux gentleman and he never laughs, only grins. My MC imitates him in everyway and hero worships him.

When my MC is older, he goes to prison. There is a burned man there that he befriends and learns from. He was a kind of magic user, in a way, who lost his abilities in a fire and was sent to prison as an arsonist. if his arresting officer had known his identity, he'd have been killed. He was a bit of a superhero/revolutionary when he was still powerful. He shares his secrets with the MC and teaches him the history of their people and their magic. 

The second mentor character is basically the ideal hero figure that appears in so many books but he screwed up bad enough that it will now take my MC, a decided anti-hero, to finish his work.


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## thecoldembrace (Jun 24, 2014)

I remember David Edding's Belgariad and Malloreon series that he had Belgarath and Polgara act as mentors, but I really honestly think that the real mentor behind the scenes was actually the prophecy itself. It acted as a mental guide through trials throughout the story.
  What are thoughts about mentor's that transcend the fleshy mortal coil and guide through some other means?

-Cold


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## acapes (Jul 1, 2014)

thecoldembrace said:


> I remember David Edding's Belgariad and Malloreon series that he had Belgarath and Polgara act as mentors, but I really honestly think that the real mentor behind the scenes was actually the prophecy itself. It acted as a mental guide through trials throughout the story.
> What are thoughts about mentor's that transcend the fleshy mortal coil and guide through some other means?
> 
> -Cold



Hey Cold, I think of Gandalf perhaps, as occupying both those roles in a way. He's a present mentor in the story, but he's also 'off-camera' quite often and is linked up with the greater power?


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## thecoldembrace (Jul 5, 2014)

acapes said:


> Hey Cold, I think of Gandalf perhaps, as occupying both those roles in a way. He's a present mentor in the story, but he's also 'off-camera' quite often and is linked up with the greater power?



I don't know about Gandalf transcending his mortal coil to guide through other means. He came back after falling. I could be wrong though.

-Cold


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## acapes (Jul 5, 2014)

thecoldembrace said:


> I don't know about Gandalf transcending his mortal coil to guide through other means. He came back after falling. I could be wrong though.
> 
> -Cold



No, you're right, he definitely came back - as Gandalf 2.0 
I think his general connection to higher powers perhaps, rather than his state of life or death? What about a classic, Obi-Wan?


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## Noma Galway (Jul 5, 2014)

acapes said:


> No, you're right, he definitely came back - as Gandalf 2.0


Isn't Gandalf a Maia? That would make him a lesser god. He came back because his "task" was to defeat Sauron. Once that was done, he did go to the Blessed Realm, where I assume he went back to the Vala he serves (I believe it's Lorien or Nienna). He isn't mortal at all. (EDIT: He can die but his spirit would pretty much live on. The fact he is in a human form limits him, because that was the intent)


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## acapes (Jul 5, 2014)

Noma Galway said:


> Isn't Gandalf a Maia? That would make him a lesser god. He came back because his "task" was to defeat Sauron. Once that was done, he did go to the Blessed Realm, where I assume he went back to the Vala he serves (I believe it's Lorien or Nienna). He isn't mortal at all. (EDIT: He can die but his spirit would pretty much live on. The fact he is in a human form limits him, because that was the intent)



Yeah, that sounds right to me - I couldn't remember all the names though


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