# Quick wording problem



## BWFoster78 (Jul 11, 2012)

Here's the paragraph:

He loved how the neat rows of glass canisters of all sizes and baskets filled with all manner of plants lined the roughhewn boards.  Every item had its place.  He felt more at home there than at the Diwen’s.

Question:

In the last sentence, should it be "there" or "here?"  I keep changing it; neither sounds right.

Bonus question:

I added in that last sentence, and I like what it reveals.  It doesn't flow correctly, though.  Any thoughts on how to fix it?

2nd Bonus:

At the end of his count, he still could not force himself to drink from the bottle.  He set it on his small oak writing table.  “Of all the stupid things I’ve done, this is absolutely the dumbest.  It could kill me.”  

He looked at his bed, then back at the bottle, then at the bed again.  “Radiation take it!”  Seizing courage with both hands, he grabbed the mixture, threw his head back, and chugged it down.  His face screwed into a grimace. The elixir tasted fouler than the tonic Master Rae gave school children he suspected of feigning illness.

The question is:

Do you hate "radiation take it" as a curse?  I want the swear words to match my world, and, long story, the radiation both fits well and gives a bit of a mystery.  Kinda like why are we talking about radiation in the middle of a fantasy novel?

Is it too distracting?  Does it sound corny?


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 11, 2012)

He loved how the neat rows of glass canisters of all sizes and baskets  filled with all manner of plants lined the roughhewn boards.  Every item  had its place.  He felt more at home there than at the Diwen’s.

Okay so for your first question, it depends on POV.  If we are in his head, then maybe here would be better than there, but I would keep it as there.  For me, that's how I write, third person limited, right?  Anyways, I like it as it is.

Second question, all I would do to change this is give a reason.  Such as:  The simple perfect order of the items, lacking that chaotic feel of the Diwen's (whatever or whoever that is, sorry, I'm trying to do this as well as I can), and somehow, that brought him a little comfort.

Hope that helps!


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 11, 2012)

Caged Maiden said:


> He loved how the neat rows of glass canisters of all sizes and baskets  filled with all manner of plants lined the roughhewn boards.  Every item  had its place.  He felt more at home there than at the Diwen’s.
> 
> Okay so for your first question, it depends on POV.  If we are in his head, then maybe here would be better than there, but I would keep it as there.  For me, that's how I write, third person limited, right?  Anyways, I like it as it is.
> 
> ...



3rd person limited is correct, and that helped a bunch.  BTW, I added an edit with another question at the bottom.  Thanks again!


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 11, 2012)

To me it's a question of where the character is when thinking about this place.

Is he in the room? If so then it's "here".

Is he elsewhere but thinking about the room? If so then it's "there".


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 11, 2012)

As far as the "radiation" curse goes, I found it confusing. That's not saying that with a little context it wouldn't work but in this limited context I didn't understand it was even a curse.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 11, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> To me it's a question of where the character is when thinking about this place.
> 
> Is he in the room? If so then it's "here".
> 
> Is he elsewhere but thinking about the room? If so then it's "there".



He's in the room.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 11, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> As far as the "radiation" curse goes, I found it confusing. That's not saying that with a little context it wouldn't work but in this limited context I didn't understand it was even a curse.



I was afraid of that.  

If it were more contextually identified as a curse, do you think it would come off as corny?  That's my biggest fear.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 11, 2012)

Really hard to say without actually reading it all. My advice is to roll with it. Give it a whirl & experiment.
If it doesn't work you'll know at critique time. Then you can change it in revision.

You'll never know if something will work if you don't try it....


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 11, 2012)

That is a harder question.  Upon first read, I didn't take it for a curse, instead thinking he was speaking about magic or science in some way, so this would probably read better in the context of your world, where this concept has been introduced.  If I were to step in a mud puddle and say, "Thor's beard!" people would probably assume it's a curse because Thor is recognized as a god, even if the person overhearing doesn't worship him.  Radiation is a different type of concept, one without a mainstream connotation, if that's the right way to convey what I'm trying to say, and it would make more sense in the context of the story.  However, once I knew it was a curse, I didn't hate it, just accepted it as it was, because his mannerisms are consistent with someone who is fighting against their own better judgement and swears at caving in.


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## Steerpike (Jul 11, 2012)

You might come up with a shortened word instead of radiation. For example, rads are units of ionizing radiation, so you could try "rads take it." I think the shorter word fits better as a curse; makes it more punchy. You might hate that particular word, but you get the idea.


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## ThinkerX (Jul 12, 2012)

> He loved how the neat rows of glass canisters of all sizes and baskets filled with all manner of plants lined the roughhewn boards. Every item had its place. He felt more at home there than at the Diwen’s.



To me, the first sentence looks awkward.  A possible fix might be 

'...rows of baskets and glass canisters of all sizes filled with an impressive variety of plants...'

Second sentence:

'This place felt like home.'

(all that is needed).



> He looked at his bed, then back at the bottle, then at the bed again. “Radiation take it!” Seizing courage with both hands, he grabbed the mixture, threw his head back, and chugged it down. His face screwed into a grimace. The elixir tasted fouler than the tonic Master Rae gave school children he suspected of feigning illness.
> 
> The question is:
> 
> Do you hate "radiation take it" as a curse? I want the swear words to match my world, and, long story, the radiation both fits well and gives a bit of a mystery. Kinda like why are we talking about radiation in the middle of a fantasy novel?



Ah...we be talking some sort of 'post apocalyptic' world.

So...yes, 'Radiation' would work - sort of.

Given the length of time that must have passed, changes to the language and all, I would suggest going with some sort of bastard contraction of 'radiation' - maybe some version of 'rads' or 'badrads' or 'rad-death'.  Bonus - the more superstitious/backwoods types would have charms to ward against the 'rad-death demon', which might even be potrayed as demonic figure in places.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 12, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> You might come up with a shortened word instead of radiation. For example, rads are units of ionizing radiation, so you could try "rads take it." I think the shorter word fits better as a curse; makes it more punchy. You might hate that particular word, but you get the idea.



I like this idea a lot.  Thanks!


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 12, 2012)

ThinkerX said:


> To me, the first sentence looks awkward.  A possible fix might be
> 
> '...rows of baskets and glass canisters of all sizes filled with an impressive variety of plants...'
> 
> ...



I agree the sentence needs work.  

You and Steerpike shared a brain on that last comment.  I lilke rads a lot.  It helps a bunch with the sentence.  Radiation sounds really awkward in context.

Not post apocalyptic, it's straight fantasy, but one of the mage types has the ability to create nuclear explosions.  There was a war that wiped out a lot of cities, helping to make magic users quite unpopular.  I want to make references to the devastation without being in your face about it.


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## gavintonks (Jul 12, 2012)

He loved how the neat rows of glass canisters of all sizes and baskets filled with all manner of plants lined the roughhewn boards. Every item had its place. He felt more at home there than at the Diwen’s.

I find the image of glass and baskets and plants lumped together the problem

he loved the neat rows of different sized glass canisters, stacked on the rough hewn boards, between the baskets of various herbal plants, the order of the items made him feel more at home here than at Diwens.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 12, 2012)

gavintonks said:


> He loved how the neat rows of glass canisters of all sizes and baskets filled with all manner of plants lined the roughhewn boards. Every item had its place. He felt more at home there than at the Diwen’s.
> 
> I find the image of glass and baskets and plants lumped together the problem
> 
> he loved the neat rows of different sized glass canisters, stacked on the rough hewn boards, between the baskets of various herbal plants, the order of the items made him feel more at home here than at Diwens.



I agree.  I also think I'm trying to cram too much information into one sentence.  I'll work on breaking that long one up.


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## ThinkerX (Jul 12, 2012)

> Not post apocalyptic, it's straight fantasy, but one of the mage types has the ability to create nuclear explosions. There was a war that wiped out a lot of cities, helping to make magic users quite unpopular. I want to make references to the devastation without being in your face about it.



Again, though, some of the more backwoods/superstitious types are going to credit that kind of destruction not to a human magician, but a malevolent demon.  Might want to think about including that element in when your MC is in a really backwards place - or close to the scene of such past destruction.

Hmmm...now that I think about it, there are issues with 'fantasy nukes' - the immediate biggie being 'just how do the characters know what radiation is in the first place'? combined with 'how do they know it is so dangerous?'  Radiation usually takes sophisticated instruments to detect; and for somebody without those instruments - or at least a modern context - damage from radiation can easily be mistakenly attributed to something else.  In a fantasy world, radiation poisoning would be seen as some sort of disease or curse - an aftereffect of the 'fantasy nuke', rather than the major part of its cause.


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 12, 2012)

You know, I run into this problem often.  I've done a lot of historical research in my life, and I have a hard time balancing things in a fantasy world that is largely medieval.  On the one hand, I keep some social structures, but I have to make medicine more advanced, like modern field medicine, knowledge is advanced, people understand that bacteria and parasites make you sick, but hospitals don't have the technology that we do today.  I just can't have people thinking that madness is caused by rocks in their heads or that leeches or cupping are legitimate medical treatments for ailments...by that same token, radiation is a hard thing to detect, and I agree with the above, though on first reading it, it didn't occur to me.


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## Lawfire (Jul 13, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> Question:
> 
> In the last sentence, should it be "there" or "here?"  I keep changing it; neither sounds right.



Do you need either one? It reads fine to me without. Grammar is not my strongest area, however.


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## gavintonks (Jul 13, 2012)

any person who works with auras can see radiation you do not need a geiger counter. driving in namibia where the hills are full of natural uranium glow at halflight juts before sunset, people knew about magnetic lode stone and many other properties of rocks, animals and plants so radiation is just another natural phenomena

animals are living very happily and healthy in chernobyl - radiation is not alien to the earth it is natural, an over exposure in a cave etc would clearly show the burning and tumors associated with intense exposure to radiation and also provide a cure. just because we need tools does not mean a person living in harmony with their environment does.

the same explanation for gu powder or how the egyptians made glass, or chinese and japanese porcelain these are all issues that require technology and science are where developed far beyond our capabilities with supposed modern technology because we do not 'feel' for things anymore


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## gavintonks (Jul 13, 2012)

sorry gun powder who would dream od scraping white powder off a cave wall and mix it with sulpher to make a bang and then enclose the explosion to make a projectile and use paper to make fireworks?


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## Jess A (Jul 13, 2012)

How to detect radiation?

Have a mage 'see' the magic. I have read plenty of stories where other mages can 'see' magic when it is cast (or the residue). Perhaps they can measure it by colour depth or the 'feel' of it - though it would be qualititative data (using the person's senses rather than mathematical measurement - e.g. 'how red is it' 'how bright is it' according to one's sight) unless you can find a way to quantify it without, say, a geiger counter.

I'm not so sure that they would term it 'radiation', however. Maybe a different name for that type of magic, one that evokes imagery of sickness and radiation?


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 13, 2012)

ThinkerX said:


> Again, though, some of the more backwoods/superstitious types are going to credit that kind of destruction not to a human magician, but a malevolent demon.  Might want to think about including that element in when your MC is in a really backwards place - or close to the scene of such past destruction.
> 
> Hmmm...now that I think about it, there are issues with 'fantasy nukes' - the immediate biggie being 'just how do the characters know what radiation is in the first place'? combined with 'how do they know it is so dangerous?'  Radiation usually takes sophisticated instruments to detect; and for somebody without those instruments - or at least a modern context - damage from radiation can easily be mistakenly attributed to something else.  In a fantasy world, radiation poisoning would be seen as some sort of disease or curse - an aftereffect of the 'fantasy nuke', rather than the major part of its cause.



You don't need sophisticated instruments if you have guys running around who can sense and control it.  The problem I'm having with my magic system is really the opposite of what you suggest: I don't want the people to be too technologically sophisticated.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 13, 2012)

Lawfire said:


> Do you need either one? It reads fine to me without. Grammar is not my strongest area, however.



I think so.  It sounds even worse without it.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 13, 2012)

Little Storm Cloud said:


> How to detect radiation?
> 
> Have a mage 'see' the magic. I have read plenty of stories where other mages can 'see' magic when it is cast (or the residue). Perhaps they can measure it by colour depth or the 'feel' of it - though it would be qualititative data (using the person's senses rather than mathematical measurement - e.g. 'how red is it' 'how bright is it' according to one's sight) unless you can find a way to quantify it without, say, a geiger counter.
> 
> I'm not so sure that they would term it 'radiation', however. Maybe a different name for that type of magic, one that evokes imagery of sickness and radiation?



Kinda what I'm doing.  Mages can sense and control their energy type.

Regarding terminology: I made the choice for to use modern language in an attempt to make the novel more accessible to the public at large.  I'm not sure it will work or not, but that's the route I'm going.


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## Steerpike (Jul 13, 2012)

I'd go with "here" in the last sentence.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 13, 2012)

Going on the 26th post.  Should we change the title to "Not so quick wording problem?"


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 18, 2012)

Another "quick" question -

I wrote the following in my novel:



> Xan filled his lungs with the scent and closed his eyes.  _Smells like home._
> 
> A man with long gray hair tied with a leather strip in the back and a close cropped beard stood at a worktable.  He glanced up.  “Be with you in a second.”



I show Xan closing his eyes.  Then I show his perception of what the show proprietor does next.  Is it necessary to either say that Xan reopened his eyes or say that he closed his eyes briefly OR is it intuitively obvious that he does?

Note: The italics didn't show up well inside the quote.  "Smells like home" should be italicized.

Thanks!


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 18, 2012)

There's several ways you can handle this:

Two you've already stated. Either say he closed his eyes for a moment OR say he reopened them.... Both kind of blah in my opinion.

A third possibility is to describe the man he sees before he closes his eyes and connects the scent to a memory. Then when the man speaks he can still have his eyes closed and hear the words, knowing its the person he just saw who's talking. 

I prefer the 3rd. It think it doesn't interrupt the memory that way.


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## Ankari (Jul 18, 2012)

Actually, the quote is fine as it is.  You are using third person limited, so the description itself suggests that your character is viewing the man.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 18, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> There's several ways you can handle this:
> 
> Two you've already stated. Either say he closed his eyes for a moment OR say he reopened them.... Both kind of blah in my opinion.
> 
> ...



I think that the question was more directed as to whether or not it's necessary to show him opening his eyes of if I can imply it.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 18, 2012)

I understand that.

I was just trying to point out that if the implication bothers you, as a writer, there are other ways to approach writing that scene. 

Overall though, as a reader, the implication wouldn't bother me.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 18, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I understand that.
> 
> I was just trying to point out that if the implication bothers you, as a writer, there are other ways to approach writing that scene.
> 
> Overall though, as a reader, the implication wouldn't bother me.



I'm not sure it bothers me as much as I want my writing to be clearly understandable.

I seem to have a problem thinking the reader will read stuff into my writing more than is actually reasonable.  One of the guys who reads my stuff has the opposite problem.  He explains everything.  I'm trying to find that balance where I don't confuse the reader but I don't get bogged down either.

I'm hearing the guy's voice in my head telling me: Xan never opened his eyes.

I'd prefer not to mention it.


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## Lawfire (Jul 19, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> I show Xan closing his eyes.  Then I show his perception of what the show proprietor does next.  Is it necessary to either say that Xan reopened his eyes or say that he closed his eyes briefly OR is it intuitively obvious that he does?



I agree with Ankari. The implication is there. If nothing else, it goes against reason that he would stand there for an extended period of time with his eyes closed. He did not slip into a coma, he was experiencing a scent based memory.

If I would have any criticism of your piece, it would be the filling his lungs with the scent. To me, filling one's lungs makes me picture a deep inhalation through the mouth. The scent part does change that in my mind, but only after I began picturing it the other way. A little awkward, but it may be on my end.


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## JCFarnham (Jul 19, 2012)

In your very first question, Here works far better for me. I've always been taught that "he felt more at home here" implied the character was actually in the place he's talking about. There is too distant. 

This last question, the eye question. I would situate the description of the man earlier in the text, before the scent memory and the closing of the eyes. As you have it you the potential for both confusing the reader _and_ implying that Xan opened his eyes when the man speaks. The way it will be taken entirely depends on the reader in question. 

I personally didn't find anything amiss with it the way you have it now, but you mention your friend who would want it explained? Well, lets assume that he represents a significant group of people in society rather than just being an individual. I would rather leave the opening implied and word the context in a way that either way could be read as the right way. What I mean is this: Can you word it in a way that would suggest he _obviously_ keeps his eyes closed and _obviously_ reopens them? I really think this could be done in away that doesn't confuse matters more, but it might take some work I suppose.

Any way something to think about. 

Your job as you seem to realise it probably not to jar the read from what they're reading. So remove any chance of them getting confused altogether. 

Alternatively, leave it and trust them. I'm current reading the new Kim Stanley Robinson book in which almost none of the cultural bits are explained ahead of time, you just have to go with it and enjoy the story. On the one hand it add authenticity to the narrative voice (the view point in the book is someone within the culture. why would they explain things to themselves? however it is still 3rd person...). On the other hand, if you don't have the tolerence necessary to gloss of these things you might find the book irritating. 

It does seem to boil down to the old "not being able to please everyone" addage, doesn't it. Suit yourself first. Then the person who is going to help you sell the book (obviously). All you can do is trust the reader is on the same wave length after that. You know you've done the best work you can, so maybe that's enough?

Anyway, I'll stop waxing philosophical on your _quick_ question thread


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## gavintonks (Jul 19, 2012)

Xan filled his lungs with the scent and closed his eyes.  Smells like home.

Closing his eyes, as he filled his lungs, the scents reminded him of home, -and made him feel nostalgic -  
The nostalgic scents of home assailed Xan when when he closed his eyes and filled his lungs with air
Xan smelled the scents when he filled his lungs with air, closing his eyes, he felt the nostalgia of home  

Just playing with the idea I am not sure, but emotionally the closing of eyes makes a person introspective


A man with long gray hair tied with a leather strip in the back and a close cropped beard stood at a worktable.  He glanced up.  “Be with you in a second.”

While waiting, Xan took a breath and filled his lungs with air, which reminded him of home. He closed his eyes, "Be with you in a second," the words brought him back 

time line is important
action of when the eyes are closed in the scene I think will be the answer
as he arrives sees the guy, is spoken too and while waiting breathes is reminded and closes his eyes to savor the smell


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