# Does advertising on a Facebook increase your sales enough to make it worthwhile?



## TermiteWriter (Dec 5, 2012)

I just posted a comment about Facebook advertising at http://termitewriter.blogspot.com/2012/12/re-facebook-you-learn-som...  I just set up a page here (like me if you want to!)  And I was wondering how many of you self-publishers advertise on their Facebook page and if it significantly increases your sales.


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## djutmose (Jan 19, 2013)

I did and it didn't seem to do anything. From what I've heard from other writers, it's pretty useless. Of course, it might depend on how much you want to spend ... The more you can spend "per click" or "per exposure" the more audience you can get. I tried to narrow my demographics and not go over $100 for a campaign and it didn't do anything for my sales.

EDIT: OH, my misunderstanding, I thought you meant the Facebook advertising that you buy, the little ads that show up on the right side of your screen ... 
Having a Facebook author or "Like" page is free and can't hurt, and it does give a way to connect to fans. I'm skeptical that it actually increases sales for new writers, though. Now, if you're popular and established, it would be a good way to get the word out about a new book.


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## TermiteWriter (Jan 20, 2013)

I was thinking about the paid advertising, but I'm happy to get your opinion on both matters.  I have no plans to pay for advertising.  And I can't see many people visiting my page, except when they go there to "like" it.  But can't hurt anything to have it, I guess!


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 22, 2013)

TermiteWriter said:


> I was thinking about the paid advertising, but I'm happy to get your opinion on both matters.  I have no plans to pay for advertising.  And I can't see many people visiting my page, except when they go there to "like" it.  But can't hurt anything to have it, I guess!



I missed this post since it was under promotion instead of marketing.

Good topic.

Though some have advised me to the contrary, I haven't started an author FB page yet.  I plan to contact friends and family through my personal account.  I'll probably get around to starting a business one shortly before I publish my first book, though I don't hold out a lot of hope that it will help any.  I think it is, however, an expectation that the readers have.

If they do find your book, they're going to expect a "professional" writer to, at a minimum, have a website and a FB page.  Better not to disappoint them.

As for "it can't hurt," it can cost you time that you could spend writing.  Just be careful with it.

As far as paid advertising, I haven't read of anyone advocating FB too highly.  I did read one author who indicated he (or she, can't remember) had some success with paid advertising on Goodreads.  If anyone tries it, please let us know the results.


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## Telcontar (Jan 23, 2013)

I have the feeling that things like Author Pages on Facebook are (rather like actual webpages) another way to make yourself visible to those who are already looking. Until you gain a certain amount of notoriety I doubt many people will make initial contact with your work (or its existence, at least) through a Facebook page. 

I have to admit that I have checked out a couple books through Facebook ads, though, so my personal opinion is that maybe it works pretty well. I didn't end up buying either of those books because they were... sub-par, to put it lightly. However, the Facebook ad DID get me to take a look at the blurbs and samples, so in that sense the advertising was successful.


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 24, 2013)

Telcontar said:


> I have the feeling that things like Author Pages on Facebook are (rather like actual webpages) another way to make yourself visible to those who are already looking. Until you gain a certain amount of notoriety I doubt many people will make initial contact with your work (or its existence, at least) through a Facebook page.
> 
> I have to admit that I have checked out a couple books through Facebook ads, though, so my personal opinion is that maybe it works pretty well. I didn't end up buying either of those books because they were... sub-par, to put it lightly. However, the Facebook ad DID get me to take a look at the blurbs and samples, so in that sense the advertising was successful.



That's good info.  Nice to know that it does have some impact.

The thing about a FB page is that it does have the power to reach a lot of people.  I'm no expert, but my understanding is that, if a friend like's your page, some of his friends see the like, which may get them to your page.  If that friend then like it...

It can grow exponentially if you get enough likes, apparently.


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## Devor (Jan 27, 2013)

I'm moving this to Marketing.

((edit))

As for the actual marketing principles, you need to remember that each new type of contact makes an impression that builds on the ones before it, making it difficult to take any given marketing piece on its own.

It's easiest to understand that principle by talking about direct mailing (which you shouldn't be doing for a book).  If you send someone a single flyer, it doesn't matter how good it is, you'll have almost zero response.  But if a company is doing it right and sends someone a flyer, a letter, a postcard and a coupon over the course of the year, they can start to expect something like a 5% rate of response.

That's because each time they see something you've put out there, you're building legitimacy that sticks with them over time.

Rather than expect any specific advertisement or social media piece to bring people in, you should be thinking about whether that piece will help "prep" someone to be more inclined to consider you at the next point of contact.  That's why they're ad _campaigns_.  If you think an ad is going to be the only time someone ever hears about you and your work, then you probably shouldn't buy it.

Also, don't forget, when you ask a reviewer to consider your book, they're definitely going to check out your facebook and twitter accounts before they say yes or no.  But they won't care about any paid advertising that you've done.


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## TermiteWriter (Jan 28, 2013)

Thanks for all the good advice!  My goal has always been to make people aware that I'm here and to try to show my books in a way that would make people want to try them.  If reviewers want to know what I'm all about, they would do better to read my blogs rather than my Facebook or Twitter accounts, because the blogs are where I reveal myself.
Also, I'm sorry I put my query in the wrong category.  That's one thing I find annoying about forums and groups - I never know which is the right category to post in.


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## scottmarlowe (Feb 5, 2013)

I have a FB fan page but it hasn't gained much traction and, to tell you the truth, it's another thing I have to keep updated and maintain to some extent. I primarily use my blog/web site and Twitter as my platforms. However, it's a good idea to have a presence on all of the major social media sites, so I'm there.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Feb 6, 2013)

I don't know anyone who has earned back their expense from paid Facebook ads. There's probably someone out there who's done so, but it doesn't seem to be the norm.

Think about it this way: how often do you see major publishers putting ads on Facebook for books? Why do you think they're very rarely doing so? 

Most of your typical sorts of ads do not work well for books; that's been true for many decades. A lot has changed as book buying moves online, but that truism seems to be holding strong.


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## Ankari (Feb 6, 2013)

I have a FB page.  It's in the link in my signature.  I tried a test ad campaign.  After investing $250 over a 3 month period, I gained over 70 extra followers.  I was getting over 27,000 visits a day to the page (mobile visits mostly) and about 2 or 3 likes.  All this, and I really don't have anything to offer to those fans that "like" me.  In my opinion, it works.  When I actually have a story to share, I'll definitely use FB Ads.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 6, 2013)

You have a lot of great art associated with that page though Ankari. As FB is a largely visual medium, I'd speculate that a lot of that attention is garnered from that artwork. No offense intended, Im sure your writing is quality. I just don't know if a page without artwork like that would get as much attention and boost sales.
For a lot of authors, the visual artwork will be limited to a cover image & a map or two.


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## Devor (Feb 6, 2013)

Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> Most of your typical sorts of ads do not work well for books; that's been true for many decades. A lot has changed as book buying moves online, but that truism seems to be holding strong.



Facebook has an absurdly low click-through rate, except for maybe some of the on-Facebook games and apps.    I interviewed for a marketing job once where they told me the best place to advertise was Tumblr, but I don't know how true that is or for what industries.  Tumblr has a clear audience, though, of visual creatives, so I don't know how useful that would be for books or not.

I've been trying to avoid giving specific advice on paid advertising because it requires a bit more research than I have time to do.  For instance, with Facebook's low click-through rate, I've no idea how many views you would purchase, for what price, or what kind of targeting facebook does with your ads.  If Facebook does any targeting, and the price is reasonable, then conceivably running three or four different advertisements over six months might get some kind of result - if the targeting means that you can expect many of the same people to see all three or four ads.  But these are all things I don't know.


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## Ankari (Feb 19, 2013)

FYI:

I'm going to perform a marketing campaign with a modest $100 budget.  I'm currently at 122 likes (Facebook Page).  I'll update this thread with any significant news.

Facebook allows you to change your ad in the middle of a campaign.  I've set the timeline for one month.  The current push is to draw potential readers with a short story I wrote and showcased here.  I want to compare that to the artwork campaign I mentioned I did before.  If the results are lackluster, I'll switch to a graphic ad in the middle of the month and compare the results as well.

Wish me luck.


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## BWFoster78 (Feb 19, 2013)

Good luck.

I just read a thread on 48Days.net about FB advertising.  Not a single person replying said that the ROI was worth it.  In fact, you're the only person I've ever heard say anything positive about it.

Of course, most people are focused on selling books directly and commenting on whether or not a FB ad created additional sales.  Your thrust seems to be to increase friends and likes in order to get the word out to more people.


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## Ankari (Feb 19, 2013)

I think authors are the only people who haven't grasped the art of hype building.  Every media outlet does this.  Movies will show trailers sometimes a year before the movie is released.  Game companies will share progress updates, screen shots and concept art long before they have a working demo.  Authors assume that once they've finished their awesome book, everyone is lining up to buy it.

I'm trying to go the route of the gaming companies.  Give periodic updates, whether concept art, short stories or random items, to build enough of an audience and interest before the book is released.  I'm guessing that 10 to 15% of my social media audience will buy the book.  That's why I'm shooting for 10, 00 followers by the time I'm able to offer a book to sell.

That's my strategy, at least.


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## BWFoster78 (Feb 19, 2013)

It will be interesting to see if that strategy pays off from a ROI standpoint.  The main variables, of course are:

1. How much $$$ to increase followers
2. Conversion rate of followers to buyers

I'm not in a position to offer even an opinion on either.  I'd love to see an analysis that attempts to estimate both once you have sales numbers.


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## Devor (Feb 19, 2013)

Ankari said:


> I'm guessing that 10 to 15% of my social media audience will buy the book.



1-3% is more realistic.  It's easy to "Like" something and forget all about it, even when you put out updates.

I think you'd do better looking for ways to target the kinds of people who can multiply your reach.


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## Ankari (Feb 19, 2013)

Devor said:


> I think you'd do better looking for ways to target the kinds of people who can multiply your reach.



Are you suggesting things like book review sites, interviews with podcasts, and hosting writing workshops at conventions?


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## Devor (Feb 19, 2013)

Ankari said:


> Are you suggesting things like book review sites, interviews with podcasts, and hosting writing workshops at conventions?



What I'm saying is, if I had $100 dollars to spend marketing something, I'd use it on the internet equivalent to letterhead.  Pitch your ideas to people, share your enthusiasm, and invite them to help.  And if you can't figure out how somebody can help, you're either looking at the wrong somebodies or you need to think harder.

For instance, Call of Heroes is going to be an RPG?  There's dozens of fantasy gamers and writers here.  You could invite people to help put together a campaign story walkthrough and give a lot more people something exciting to talk about.

You're writing a book?  You're a contributing member at Mythic Scribes?  Submit guest articles for the homepage here or at sites elsewhere.  Or think bigger, and figure out how to approach authors to do interviews (it's really not hard).  Or try and figure out other ways to show your abilities by contributing to other places with established audiences.

Make friends, be helpful, don't be afraid to ask.

You'll get further doing that stuff than you would with a facebook ad.


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## Jessquoi (Feb 20, 2013)

So far as I can see a Facebook fan page only becomes popular if your public hears of you from another source. For example for a music band, people would go and Like their page after having seen that band at a gig or heard from them from somewhere else like browsing on Spotify. People don't really just come across your page on Facebook. I definitely don't pay any attention to those ads on the right-hand side!


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## Chilari (Feb 20, 2013)

I don't even use Facebook any more for anything except looking at photos of my cousin's children. The only person I know who has increased her use of Facebook recently is my sister, who started working for Facebook in October so that's why.

I find the majority of my clicks to my website come from three sources: here, where I've got a link in my sig; Twitter, where I tweet most of my articles and my followers occasionally click; and Reddit, where I link my articles in either /r/writing or /r/fantasy if there's a relevant thread or I've written a blog post that will interest the readership. My biggest spikes have all come from Reddit - between 40 and 60 visits a day on the day of the post and the day or two afterwards, compared to an average of 4-8 a day.

Now this is clicks on a website, not sales of books, but I think it can translate. I agree with Devor that the followers to sales ratio is probably closer to the lower end than Ankari has estimated. My understanding is that in webcomics it's 2-5% of readers to merchandise buyers and I don't think it'd be far out for book purchases. The way you get more sales is to increase exposure, sure, but it should be targetted exposure. Facebook has everyone on it. And sure, some friends might decide to buy it to support you, but you want to target readers of fantasy, and the way to do that is to post in places where readers of fantasy gather - Goodreads, boards like this one, /r/writing or /r/fantasy.

Let's put it this way. Here in the UK I often see movie adverts on the sides of buses, but I don't see book adverts there. People who see bus adverts are just out and about in the city. They're doing things. Maybe they're with friends, and seeing the movie advert will inspire them to say to said friends "shall we go and see that?" - movies are social things, seeing them in cinemas is a social event. But books are not, and so you wouldn't get the same reaction to seeing a book ad on the side of a bus, because they're solitary things.

But I do see a lot of book adverts in train stations. In train stations, people are waiting for the next train, there's usually a WHSmith in the building, between entrance and platform (there certainly are in Wolverhampton and Leicester, and I'm pretty sure I've seen them in Birmingham New Street, Euston and St Pancras too). Train users are travelling long distances (generally) and might see a book ad and think "I could read that on my two hour train journey down to London - it'll give me something to do". So they pop up to the WHSmith and buy the book and read it while they're on the train.

The marketers know their market. They target the public location best suited to selling the product. Both are still in public locations related to transport, but they're targetted at what the potential customer is doing and thinking and what they will take away from the advert. Posting a book ad on Facebook is like putting one on the side of a bus: not best targetted. Find the reading audience and advertise there.


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## BWFoster78 (Feb 20, 2013)

Chilari,

I found this interesting:



> My biggest spikes have all come from Reddit



While I had vaguely heard of the site before, I didn't really know what it was.  I Googled it and now have some clue, but could you give a little primer on how to use it and what has been successful for you on it?

Thanks!

Brian


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## Chilari (Feb 20, 2013)

Reddit is a massive forum where basically anything can be posted. It has topic subreddits like /r/writing which is, predictably, about writing, and /r/funny here people post mildly amusing or occasionally actually funny images. You can subscribe to subreddits looking at topics that interest you, and there's a lot of subreddits, basically one for everything anyone on there is interested in talking about. On /r/writing people post links to news stories, blog posts and other contnet on the intenet that discuss writing topics - there was one linking to the comic The Oatmeal about the meaning of irony, and someone posted one the other day linking to the Seven Flawed Characters front page article that was up last week (or maybe that was on /r/fantasy). Redditors can them comment on the linked article or item in the comments thread.

Then there are self-posts, which are more like forum threads here someone asks a question and others respond in the comments. You can respond to specific comments and it creates a reply tree. And you can upvote or donvote comments, theoretically based on relevance but probably more based on enjoyment or agreement.

Basically, when I've posted something on my blog that I think a subreddit would be genuinely interested in, I've either mentioned it in a relevant thread or created a link for it. Most recently I linked my Exiles of Arcadia: Legionnaire review in the thread where the author created a discussion on getting reviews, and I also in the same place linked to previous reviews I'd done. From those I get a surge of links of people being interested in what I've said and clicking through. If people like it they upvote my comment or thread, and if they don't they downvote it; if too many people donvote it, it won't get seen, though generally the only threads that get downvoted heavily are spam and chances are not getting seen is about not getting as many upvotes as other threads being posted around the same time. If it's not relevant to the subreddit it will also get donvoted, or if it's transparently trying to get people to look but lacks real interest or content.

I've found I've got a lot of hits and a lot of visitors, in general, but not many followers or likes, which probably means most people who click through from reddit read a paragraph or two, get bored and press X, and a few read to the end of the post and look at another recent post. I have had a couple of likes and maybe a follow or two from it though. But generally the spikes are empty - my average daily hits doesn't go up once the spike has gone, I don't have any extra followers.

So while I get visits spikes from posting on reddit, most of my followers are people with suspiciously familier names to anyone who posts frequently here on MS. But I think over the long term I will get a lasting benefit from reddit. I've been posting responses to threads, as I do here, making links with other writers over there, etc, building up a bit of reputation, as Michael Sullivan has already done, so my hope is that once I've got a good reputation and people are used to associating my name ith content they find interesting it will translate to follows and likes on my blogs and possibly ultimately to sales when I have something to sell. All of my follows and likes from redditors clicking through have been in the most recent spike, so maybe it's already happening, or maybe it's that author whose book I reviewed and his wife.

Apologies for any missing Ws, I play too many games where W is forward and the key is wearing out.


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## BWFoster78 (Feb 20, 2013)

Cool.  These are solid ideas.  I may try it out!


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## MongrelChuck (Feb 21, 2013)

What you need to do is look into optimization.  Join a few groups, spread the word, provide your information on various websites.  That optimization can then help drive readers looking for topics you have optimized for to a source of your choice.  Facebook is good, but of course you probably have your own website and/or blog to link to the Facebook and then receive links back to.

Look up basic Search Engine Optimization and you'll be set in no time.


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## Ankari (Feb 22, 2013)

Update

So far 68 people have clicked on my ad.  Of those, 7 people have liked the short story.  Of those, two people have liked the page.  Total cost, $22.

Again, I'll wait until I've spent $50, then switch to a visual ad to compare the results.  I should have some dragon artwork ready by then.  Everyone loves dragons.

In a month or so, I'll do the same thing with Google ads.  I use Google Ads for another business I manage and get some pretty decent results for the investment.  I'll let everyone know how that goes.

I'm open to trying various forms of marketing.  If you have another idea for me to test, and I can afford it at that time, please share it with me.

Thanks!


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## BWFoster78 (Feb 22, 2013)

Ankari said:


> Update
> 
> So far 68 people have clicked on my ad.  Of those, 7 people have liked the short story.  Of those, two people have liked the page.  Total cost, $22.
> 
> ...



Ankari,

Thank you very much for sharing these results.

The only tip I've read is that ads on Goodreads seem to be pretty effective (comparitively speaking) at selling books.  Makes sense, really targeted audience who are looking for books to buy.


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## Ankari (Feb 22, 2013)

More information has come in that is useful to this discussion:

*2,769* people have seen my post about the short story.  From the number of people who have clicked on the ad (now 89), *21* have clicked on the post on my facebook page.  This means they stayed and looked at my facebook page long enough to find the post and then click on the short story.  That is the best number I can derive to represent the number of people who have read the short story and saw my name.

The number of likes I've received on this post is now 10

From that, 345 unique people have seen my post show up on their timeline (when you like a post, your friends see it).

The information is a bit off.  Facebook gives you real time information on the number of people who have clicked on your ad, the likes to your page, and the likes to your post.  It delays giving you the other information (number of people who say the post in their timeline, the number of people who have seen your ad, and the number of people who have clicked on a post).

I'll post again when I can share significant updates.


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## Nihal (Feb 23, 2013)

I think your visual ads will fare better, the artist you're working with is really good. I'm far from being an expert, I can't talk about written ads but I know a little about artwork.

I've never used paid ads on Facebook, I have only some little data from my page. I'm a lazyass and my reach is really small, but I'm able get higher conversions rates. If you pair a beautiful visual ads (your enchanting bait) + good content it can work well.

The main thing about social networks is that your content must engage your visitors. You want to keep them returning after clicking on your ads, you want them sharing your updates and talking about it. Frequent updates are one part of it, if you stop updating some of your efforts will be undone, even if people keep following you. The other is to be able to release something more engaging from time to time.

In terms of artwork I can say: Timelapse. My best combos were doing a good illustration + selecting some good close-ups + creating a timelapse. I've never recorded a video of my proccess but I'm pretty sure it would work really well, better than a timelapse.

It's one of the "engaging contents" I'm able to create as an illustrator, I guess the writer's equivalent would be provoking an good discussion about some subject or sharing some of your knowledge of your field. And don't forget to involve yourself with groups related to your area!


P.s.: If you got artwork related to your project don't forget to try Tumblr too. It can go viral so easily it looks like magic!


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## Ankari (Feb 25, 2013)

*Update 2*

As of this moment my ad campaign has cost me $39.59

17,238 people have seen my ad, $0.02 per view.

193 have clicked on the ad, $0.21 a click.

I've had 28 total likes for the short story I'm advertising. $1.42 per like.

From that, 1163 have seen my post in their timeline.  $0.03 per story generated.

From that, another 140 people have clicked on that link and read the story.  $0.28 per click.

Hope this makes sense.  Another $10 and I'll switch to the dragons   I love dragons.


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## BWFoster78 (Feb 26, 2013)

Ankari said:


> *Update 2*
> 
> As of this moment my ad campaign has cost me $39.59
> 
> ...



I gotta say that these results are pretty positive.  I understand the objection - that clicks and likes don't necessarily translate to sales, but it is nice to have confirmation that you're actually reaching a lot of people.

Thanks again for the detailed info.


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## Devor (Feb 26, 2013)

Ankari said:


> I've had 28 total likes for the short story I'm advertising. $1.42 per like.



I guess this one's the question.  How many likes do you figure will transfer into a sale?  If you estimated 10%, or 1 in 10 likes = sale, then you're spending $1.42 * 10 = $14.20 a sale.

Do you know if those same 17,238 people be seeing your dragon ad?  The basic theory is that the first ad makes people more receptive to the second one.


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## Ankari (Feb 26, 2013)

Devor said:


> Do you know if those same 17,238 people be seeing your dragon ad?  The basic theory is that the first ad makes people more receptive to the second one.



There's no way of figuring that out.  Facebook doesn't give that kind of data.  

By the way, going by my last ad run featuring art, I got over 275K views of the ad.  The number of "likes" were higher as well.  But, as you suggest, there isn't a way of knowing the quality of "likes."

I'm doing this to create brand awareness.  All of my books (God willing), will be branded with the CoH logo.  If I'm going to self publish, I want to make it as professional looking as possible.

I think I'll be switching to the art ad by tomorrow.  I keep you posted.


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## Ankari (Mar 1, 2013)

Well, it looks like my story promotion doesn't have enough funds in it to generate another click.  It's stuck at $49.58 spent.

Here are the numbers for the Story of Jobe Ad campaign:

18.923 people saw the ad:  Just under $0.03 per view

242 clicked the ad (to read the story): $0.20 per click

36 total likes on the post:  $1.37 per like

1204 saw my story in their timeline:  $0.04 per view


Numbers from Then Came Dragons Ad Campaign:

Tota spent (so far) $7.62

3712 people have seen this ad: $0.002 per view

493 clicks on the ad: 0.015 per click

15 people liked the post: $0.51

4 people liked the page: $1.91

112 people have seen this post in their timeline: $0.07 per view.


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## Ankari (Mar 6, 2013)

I'm a little surprised by my current ad campaign.  No numbers to report yet, but I will say that in the same time frame as my Story of Jobe ad used all its funds, this one only used $17.78.  That means that I got more clicks (more traffic and exposure) from offering a story than some pretty nice looking art.

I think authors are missing on the power of facebook ads.  I guess the fact that people are getting a free story to pass the time is worth the trouble.


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## Ankari (Mar 12, 2013)

Here are the numbers for the "And Then Came Dragons" ad campaign.

Total spent: $30.32

16,607 people have seen the ad: $0.002 (yes, that low) per view of ad

20,363 people have seen the post: $0.0014 per post view (includes views of ad)

1,012 clicks on the ad: $0.03 per click

38 post likes: $0.80 per like

24 page likes: $1.26 per like

I have a little less than $20 left in my budget for this ad campaign.  So far, this is trending to be as successful than the "Story of Jobe" Campaign.

Inspired by BWFoster78, I'm going to try another ad campaign after this one is complete.  I'll offer my novelette to all facebook fans when I reach a certain number of likes (I want to double it, so probably around 400).  All I'll ask is for the people interested to send me an email with their preferred format (epub, mobi, iBook, pdf).

I'll get two things out of this:

1) More likes.

2) A solid start to an email database.

I hope to also get some virality as well.  I'll keep everyone posted on the success of that campaign when it goes live.


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## Telcontar (Mar 12, 2013)

Thanks for sharing all this data, Ankari. Sometime this summer I intend to do some modest advertising campaigns of my own, and I think I'll try to follow your example and share whatever results I get.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 12, 2013)

Telcontar said:


> Thanks for sharing all this data, Ankari. Sometime this summer I intend to do some modest advertising campaigns of my own, and I think I'll try to follow your example and share whatever results I get.



Please do.  This is a fantastic help.

We all have different ideas of what might work.  Seeing actual results is the absolute best learning tool.

Thanks!


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## Devor (Mar 12, 2013)

Ankari said:


> 38 post likes: $0.80 per like
> 
> 24 page likes: $1.26 per like



This is essentially the bottom line, and I have some pretty big doubts about whether this is a good number.  For instance, my last article in Mythic Scribes had 94 likes and 124 tweets.  So do many others.  In some ways that's an unfair comparison, but in others it's somewhat telling.  I think you should look into other options for your future ad campaigns.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 12, 2013)

Devor said:


> This is essentially the bottom line, and I have some pretty big doubts about whether this is a good number.  For instance, my last article in Mythic Scribes had 94 likes and 124 tweets.  So do many others.  In some ways that's an unfair comparison, but in others it's somewhat telling.  I think you should look into other options for your future ad campaigns.



While I respect your viewpoint and agree to an extent, I think that neglecting this as a worthy number is a mistake:

16,607 people have seen the ad: $0.002 (yes, that low) per view of ad

20,363 people have seen the post: $0.0014 per post view (includes views of ad)

That's a lot of freakin' people!

And, since FB allows you to target ads, it seems like, as you often recommend, it's possible to catch the same people with additional campaigns.

Also, I'm a little unclear on this, but isn't a FB like for a business acct a lot like a "follow" more than just an indication that someone agreed with your post?  I think it means that the people who "liked" him will now receive at least some of his posts, so future communications with those 24 (or is it 38) is now free.

I'm not advocating FB ads by any means as I'm still very skeptical of how they will translate into sales.  I have a hard time finding anyone out there (besides Ankari) who's screaming, "Advertising on FB is awesome!"

On the other hand, it seems like there might be some merit to it as a PART of a comprehensive marketing strategy.


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## Ankari (Mar 12, 2013)

It's not so much as validating Facebook as a worthy marketing avenue as it is to find the best way to market on Facebook.  The art has been a little more successful, but that is only comparing my recent ads.  When I do the next round of ads (trying the same $50 budget) with the new novelette, I'll have a better understanding of what works better, visual art or consumable content.

I am optimistic about the decreased cost per clicks I'm receiving from the previous ad to this one.  If the trend continues in this path, then at one point the return on investment will be so high it would be silly not for me to advertise on facebook.

As is all studies, you can't base your decision on a small sampling of data.  I'll continue to share my findings as they come in.


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## Devor (Mar 12, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> And, since FB allows you to target ads, it seems like, as you often recommend, it's possible to catch the same people with additional campaigns.



I don't know, has that been verified?  I thought he said that he had no idea if the same people would see the next ad or not.  Some degree of targeting might make a difference in the long run.




> Also, I'm a little unclear on this, but isn't a FB like for a business acct a lot like a "follow" more than just an indication that someone agreed with your post?  I think it means that the people who "liked" him will now receive at least some of his posts, so future communications with those 24 (or is it 38) is now free.



Yes and no.  It's a little deceptive.  If they like the post, the answer is mostly no.  If they like the page, the answer might be yes.  But facebook runs everything through a number of filters that are hard to keep track of, so that you may have more people seeing your posts because people will see "Your friend liked a post on Age of Heroes, here's their page," or you may have almost nobody seeing your posts because the facebook filters decide you're not worth it.

It can be hard to tell what stage of the game you're at.




> On the other hand, it seems like there might be some merit to it as a PART of a comprehensive marketing strategy.



I would want a bigger picture as to what the rest of that strategy looked like before agreeing or not.  Right now, I'm inclined to think you'd be better off spending $100 paying people to write articles for your page than spending it on ads.


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## Ankari (Mar 12, 2013)

Devor said:


> I don't know, has that been verified?  I thought he said that he had no idea if the same people would see the next ad or not.  Some degree of targeting might make a difference in the long run.



You can target your ads to people's interest.  For instance, I've targeted my ads to people who like the same authors, novels and RPGs that I like.  You can also filter it by country.  I'm doing Canada, USA, UK, and Australia.  I am targeting about six million people.


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## Devor (Mar 12, 2013)

Ankari said:


> You can target your ads to people's interest.  For instance, I've targeted my ads to people who like the same authors, novels and RPGs that I like.  You can also filter it by country.  I'm doing Canada, USA, UK, and Australia.  I am targeting about six million people.



6,000,000 / 16,607 = your reach is 1 in 361 members of your target audience.  That means an individual who sees the first ad has a 0.28% chance of seeing the next one, assuming he even notices them.  You would want that number to be in the high double digits if you want your ads to generate a cumulative effect.  If you're going to generate 17,000 views for each ad, you want to be targeting 20-30k people.


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## Ankari (Mar 12, 2013)

That's good advice.  I'll narrow my target window down more the next time.  Perhaps keep it to only the authors I like (they have around 40K total likes if you don't include GRRM).


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## Devor (Mar 12, 2013)

Ankari said:


> That's good advice.  I'll narrow my target window down more the next time.  Perhaps keep it to only the authors I like (they have around 40K total likes if you don't include GRRM).



Consider doing that, but unliking a few authors first.


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## Ankari (Mar 12, 2013)

No, you don't have to target all the authors you like.  You can pick and chose which ones you want to target.  It doesn't even have to be authors I like.  It could be any author of any genre or no authors at all.  I'll take a screenshot of the process next time I do it so you have an idea.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 13, 2013)

> If they like the page, the answer might be yes. But facebook runs everything through a number of filters that are hard to keep track of, so that you may have more people seeing your posts because people will see "Your friend liked a post on Age of Heroes, here's their page," or you may have almost nobody seeing your posts because the facebook filters decide you're not worth it.
> 
> It can be hard to tell what stage of the game you're at.



All I know is that all I did was click "Like" for the New Orleans Saints.  Now it seems like 1 in every 5 posts is some kind of message from them.



> I would want a bigger picture as to what the rest of that strategy looked like before agreeing or not. Right now, I'm inclined to think you'd be better off spending $100 paying people to write articles for your page than spending it on ads.



As Ankari stated, I think it's a worthy experiment to determine what is effective.  I'm just glad that he's spending the money instead of me having to spend mine


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## Devor (Mar 13, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> All I know is that all I did was click "Like" for the New Orleans Saints.  Now it seems like 1 in every 5 posts is some kind of message from them.



But sports teams are popular, and you probably have friends who've liked it too.  As an experiment, try visiting the wall of some of the other pages you've liked and see how much you're missing.  Also, it's pretty easy to "like" a page and still "hide" it from your feed, which people do to a lot when they're sick of seeing their posts.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 13, 2013)

Devor said:


> But sports teams are popular, and you probably have friends who've liked it too.  As an experiment, try visiting the wall of some of the other pages you've liked and see how much you're missing.  Also, it's pretty easy to "like" a page and still "hide" it from your feed, which people do to a lot when they're sick of seeing their posts.



There's also the possibility (probability?) that the Saints pay to "promote" their posts.  Of course, we have the same option.  Not sure that it's not worth it for major announcements like a book coming out.

Is it me, or does the following plan not sound that bad:

1. Spend a bit of money attracting likes to your page
2. The people who like your page are "like"ly to both be interested in your brand and in buying your books
3. Spend the necessary $$$ to promote your announcements of new products and promotions in order that it show up on everyone's feeds

Of course, note that it's best not to spam your followers lest they hide you.


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## Devor (Mar 13, 2013)

To be honest, no.

I really think that if you took a hundred bucks and invited a few people to write something for the site for $20 apiece, it would bring more than 24 likes to the page.  That would build up the site, the audience, the brand's reputation, and so on.  It would give other writers a credential, expand your network, help get other people to promote you, and on-and-on-and-on.  There's an opportunity cost to doing one thing instead of the other.

Also, liking the page after seeing an ad might reflect some interest.  But it's not much.  "Yeah, that looks good, LIKE."  You could show a random string of numbers to 17,000 people and get 24 likes.  "Hahaha, what is this?  LIKE."  Pressing like doesn't mean the same thing to everybody.  It's not a good metric to maximize for.

For instance, Ankari, have page views for the website increased with the facebook ads?


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## Telcontar (Mar 13, 2013)

Forgive me, Ankari, as you probably have this info elsewhere and I've simply forgotten, but are you selling any sort of novella, art, or other product in relation to these campaigns? If so, has there been any increase to sales that you've noticed in correlation?

As Devor mentions, "likes" aren't really persuasive as far as gaining an audience. Getting pageviews is a bit better. But actually getting people to spend money is far, far more difficult than all the rest.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 13, 2013)

> I really think that if you took a hundred bucks and invited a few people to write something for the site for $20 apiece, it would bring more than 24 likes to the page. That would build up the site, the audience, the brand's reputation, and so on.



I'm confused.

How does additional content attract people to your FB page?

Trying to reason it through:

Some of the people who have already liked your page would see it and might like it.
Some of their friends might see the "liked" post and click you page to like it.

I guess if you already have a big base of people who have liked your post, that could be more beneficial than an ad campaign, but, unless you're at an advanced stage as far as promotion goes, it doesn't seem like the $100 would give you much of a return at all.

What am I missing?


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## Ankari (Mar 13, 2013)

Telcontar said:


> Forgive me, Ankari, as you probably have this info elsewhere and I've simply forgotten, but are you selling any sort of novella, art, or other product in relation to these campaigns? If so, has there been any increase to sales that you've noticed in correlation?



Nothing to sell yet.  I'm doing this for research purposes, thus the $50 budgets.  I plan to sell a novelette/novella (it's been growing, see) sometime next month.  Before I do so, I'll be doing a third campaign offering the story for free in their preferred format.  The intention of that campaign is:

1) To create an email database.
2) Ask for reviews.
3) Generate more page likes.

Points 1 and 2 are the most important.  The third point is to try and maximize my ROI by setting a page like goal double of the then current number.  I'll let you know how that works out.


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## Ankari (Mar 13, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I'm confused.
> 
> How does additional content attract people to your FB page?
> 
> ...



Unless I miss my guess, Devor is talking about generating content for a website/blog.  The more content you generate, the more followers you'll attract.


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## Devor (Mar 13, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> How does additional content attract people to your FB page?



Ohh a few ways.  Like for example, for people who see all of the new content, it's like four or five different ads, taking you straight the cumulative effect I was talking about before.  Those people will become increasingly more inclined to share the content, which will in turn encourage them to share the content.  The more people who share the content, the more people there will be seeing the content.

But not only that, since there's a lot of overlap between the communities surrounding your followers, the targeting is done for you.  People inside the overlap will see multiple people sharing your content, which in turn, makes them more likely to like and share it, too.

On top of that, the people you get creating this content could help out with connections of their own, and if those people have overlapping connections, then those connections are more inclined to help you, too.

((edit))  Kids interrupted me, so I forgot where I was.  But I left out the big one:

Since you would have more compelling content, and more legitimacy than an ad in your approach, then their level of interest in clicking _Like_ would be higher.  So not only would you get more likes, but you'd get better ones.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 14, 2013)

> Ohh a few ways.



Again, though, this seems to presume you've already got a number of interested followers.  If you're starting from scratch, this would do nothing.

Therefore, it seems logical that there is some point of number of followers that using this technique may become optimum.  Perhaps before that tipping point, ads are a good idea.


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## Devor (Mar 14, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Again, though, this seems to presume you've already got a number of interested followers.  If you're starting from scratch, this would do nothing.



There's some presumption, but not so much.  Ankari is at 166 followers and is reasonably well regarded at least around here.  If you do something that gets a few people involved and excited, that's contagious, and it becomes an event.  Making an event is the most powerful way to market something.

For instance - no offense to Ankari, but I'm not one of the likes on his facebook page.  If I knew a few people who got on board, I might quickly go from "not following" to "sometimes sharing."  Not that I would do him much good, but I don't think I'm the only person around here who would feel that way.


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## Ankari (Mar 18, 2013)

Devor said:


> There's some presumption, but not so much.  Ankari is at 166 followers and is reasonably well regarded at least around here.  If you do something that gets a few people involved and excited, that's contagious, and it becomes an event.  Making an event is the most powerful way to market something.
> 
> For instance - no offense to Ankari, but I'm not one of the likes on his facebook page.  If I knew a few people who got on board, I might quickly go from "not following" to "sometimes sharing."  Not that I would do him much good, but I don't think I'm the only person around here who would feel that way.




Good way of thinking, Devor.  I'm not at that stage, yet, where I can include/recruit people to my project.  When that day comes, I'll definitely begin with the fine people of these forums.

Another topic.  I have less then $4 left in this ad campaign.  When it's completed, I'll post the results.  Then I'll move onto the next campaign with the free novelette offer (with all facebook fans, after I've reached a certain number).  I hope to get a couple hundred more fans, a good base of potential reviewers, and some virality with the next campaign.

We'll see.  As always, I'll keep you posted.


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## Ankari (Mar 21, 2013)

I have little to share with everyone about my new ad campaign, except for one striking number.  In less than 16 hours I've gained 10 new page likes.  Wow.


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