# Engineering with Steam and Magic



## OrionDarkwood (Dec 29, 2011)

Most of my fantasy novels that I am writing take place on a planet (Kaneon) that has steam and flight techonlogy as well as being a high magic world. However I want to create devices that have some logical enginnering behind them. Such as a hi-speed train that magical floating discs cause it to hover. However how would I design a device to stop it in case of magical disc failure?


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## sashamerideth (Dec 29, 2011)

Wheels or skis on the bottom that snap out if the levitation fails?

Or it happens so rarely that it isn't a concern, but when it does, like one in ten million journeys, everybody dies...

Sent from my Blade using Forum Runner


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## Giant (Dec 29, 2011)

You could have all the floating discs of the train interconnected. Then when one of the discs fail, all of the other discs fail as well causing the train to slam onto the tracks and apply the brakes. You could use really powerful magnets as the braking device.

Another thought, would a floating train need tracks? 

Also the train could be normal, and the wizards in your world enchanted the tracks with a magical spell. Maybe the spell pushes the train up from the tracks at a certain distance from the station, allowing it to hit high speed with out worry of mechanical failure. Then the train would remount on the tracks when the station nears to allow for boarding?


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## Ravana (Dec 29, 2011)

OrionDarkwood said:


> However how would I design a device to stop it in case of magical disc failure?



The same way real-world engineers do it, I imagine… albeit with magic. Look into high-speed trains (maglevs), see how they do it, and modify appropriately. For that matter, look into trains generally: stopping them has always been problematic. Well, stopping them safely, at least: I can think of lots of ways to stop them unsafely.

A whole lot will depend on the overall configuration of the system. The discs levitate the train–how? Car by car? More than one per car? (Put three on each and you're unlikely to experience catastrophe if only one fails.) And does this vary with the weight of the car, or can a single disc (or set of discs) serve regardless of weight? What then makes it move forward? Getting it to float isn't enough all by itself. (I can envision a system where magic gets the thing to float, and then it gets towed by mules.…) Whatever the motive power is will also be your prime suspect for braking. How does it stay on track? Maglevs aren't simple… in fact, they're so complex they need to be computer-controlled to keep them on the tracks: lifting them and pushing them is all fine and good, but that's still only motion in a straight line. Put a curve in the track and the whole system needs to adjust to keep the train from going over sideways. (Ain't Newton a bitch?  ) Crosswinds can make things really interesting, too. As can slopes: at least when you have wheels in contact with the track, you have friction to keep the whole thing from sliding down to the lowest elevation. When levitating, not so much. 

Alternately, avoid having the discs fail. Though I'm guessing you'd planned to make use of that in whatever you're writing.  Second alternative: oh, well. The discs fail, the thing crashes.

Which leads to the question of how the discs fail, and what might cause that.…


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## OrionDarkwood (Dec 30, 2011)

sashamerideth said:


> Wheels or skis on the bottom that snap out if the levitation fails?
> 
> Or it happens so rarely that it isn't a concern, but when it does, like one in ten million journeys, everybody dies...
> 
> Sent from my Blade using Forum Runner



Good idea, however this Floating Train goes at speeds in excess of 200MPH the thing is to get a train to stop quickly and safely in case the discs disappear or the rails which act as a guide wire are destoryed


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## OrionDarkwood (Dec 30, 2011)

Giant said:


> You could have all the floating discs of the train interconnected. Then when one of the discs fail, all of the other discs fail as well causing the train to slam onto the tracks and apply the brakes. You could use really powerful magnets as the braking device.
> 
> Another thought, would a floating train need tracks?
> 
> Also the train could be normal, and the wizards in your world enchanted the tracks with a magical spell. Maybe the spell pushes the train up from the tracks at a certain distance from the station, allowing it to hit high speed with out worry of mechanical failure. Then the train would remount on the tracks when the station nears to allow for boarding?



Hmm interest concept I will have to explore. To answer your question the tracks act as guide wires for the Floating Train (yes I know I need a better name still working on that one since a Tensor Train would probably get Wizards of the Coast cheesed at me for copy-write laws). Also the Floating Trains are not the only type of train there are slower steam engines for cargo and clients that can't afford the Floating Train. 

I haven't thought of having the tracks with the levitate spell.. Then if the tracks are broken between stations then the train couldn't go because the connection would be broke.


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## OrionDarkwood (Dec 30, 2011)

Ravana said:


> The same way real-world engineers do it, I imagine… albeit with magic. Look into high-speed trains (maglevs), see how they do it, and modify appropriately. For that matter, look into trains generally: stopping them has always been problematic. Well, stopping them safely, at least: I can think of lots of ways to stop them unsafely.
> 
> A whole lot will depend on the overall configuration of the system. The discs levitate the train—how? Car by car? More than one per car? (Put three on each and you're unlikely to experience catastrophe if only one fails.) And does this vary with the weight of the car, or can a single disc (or set of discs) serve regardless of weight? What then makes it move forward? Getting it to float isn't enough all by itself. (I can envision a system where magic gets the thing to float, and then it gets towed by mules.…) Whatever the motive power is will also be your prime suspect for braking. How does it stay on track? Maglevs aren't simple… in fact, they're so complex they need to be computer-controlled to keep them on the tracks: lifting them and pushing them is all fine and good, but that's still only motion in a straight line. Put a curve in the track and the whole system needs to adjust to keep the train from going over sideways. (Ain't Newton a bitch?  ) Crosswinds can make things really interesting, too. As can slopes: at least when you have wheels in contact with the track, you have friction to keep the whole thing from sliding down to the lowest elevation. When levitating, not so much.
> 
> ...




Good idea I haven't thought about that.. But to answer your questions the discs are one for each car and the tracks are guide wires (basically the persons(s) plioting the train control speed and only do direction when choosing tracks to go down).

The discs are will keep the train car from sliding but weight is not a problem. As far as failures the most common are:

- Dispell magic or dispelling effects (Kaneon was a magical waste dumping ground for thousands of years so there is alot of freak weather and odd magical effects)

- Track destruction
- Large creatures such as dragons, giants and other assorted beasties


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## Devor (Dec 30, 2011)

Assuming all of the disks might fail at once... Depending on how much magic you intend to use, you might be able to pull off something like a hot-air-balloon parachute in each car.  It's not really realistic because of the weights involved, but with some sort of magical-gas propellent it might become believable.

Assuming one disk fails at a time? The thing is called redundancy.  Use multiple disks per car so that one failure isn't even a problem.

Another alternative?  The "wire tracks" could just be strong enough to hold the train during a disk failure.  Maybe there's some emergency-reinforcement which springs into play.  The tracks are sectioned off; when a train failure happens in the second section, the tracks from the 1st and 3rd sections somehow "pull in" to reinforce the wire until help arrives.  Each section would have it's own supports; it's just the track itself that's "weak" to allow movement and needs to be reinforced.  That way, since it's a little complicated, if it happens in the story you might have enough ambiguity about whether it will or will not work this time.

Hope it helps.


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## Ravana (Dec 31, 2011)

OrionDarkwood said:


> Good idea I haven't thought about that.. But to answer your questions the discs are one for each car and the tracks are guide wires (basically the persons(s) plioting the train control speed and only do direction when choosing tracks to go down).
> 
> The discs are will keep the train car from sliding but weight is not a problem. As far as failures the most common are:
> 
> ...



Well, the last two would be problems for any train, not just a magical floating one, so solutions would be similar–basically, none. Figure that if the problem is of a variety that a mundane train would be unable to cope with, there's no special reason to expect a magical one to fare any better. 

As for the first, I quote one of my own works, where, in a citadel sporting the highest per capita concentration of mages on the planet, a student questions the necessity for learning principles of unaugmented stone-and-mortar architectural engineering. The instructor's reply is a disgusted scowl, followed by the words "Build it like your enemy knows counterspells." In other words: if the inhabitants of the world expect that to be a problem, they'll compensate either by addressing the problem itself–in this case, defense against things that disrupt magic–or else they'll consider the hazard too great and not make the thing in the first place.

Which is how the other problems would be addressed, too. Track destruction? Like I said, that's a problem for any train. If the tracks are too easily destroyed, they will never use them in the first place; if they can't protect the tracks, they'll stop using them, or at most only use them in places they _can_ protect them. Large creatures? The problem is the creature, not how the train functions: you defend against the creature, just as you'd defend anything else you value against such creatures.

See, here's the thing about magic: you're trying to go half-and-half. You've decided these discs can magically levitate train cars; you've decided something or other, presumably magical, makes the train go forward; you've decided the discs will prevent the train from sliding on slopes; you've decided the tracks–or in this case guide wires–can keep them going where they're supposed to go… but you're worrying about the _physics_ of emergency braking? And _not_ about the physics of a single disc lifting arbitrary amounts of weight, or how motive force gets applied in the absence of friction, or the fact that if the discs stop a slide on a slope they should stop the thing from moving in all circumstances, or the various complexities of taking a high-mass, high-inertia object around a curve?

My approach would be to worry about the physics of _all_ these things, but that's the kind of writer I am: I prefer to use "magic" as an _explanation_ as little as possible… even where magic is being used. And I can think of fairly simple answers to most of the above problems, as it happens. (I can also think of a several additional problems.) You might be just as happy–probably happier–to simply handle braking the same way you've handled everything else: magically. Or else admit that there isn't a known solution in your world, and that when such things as you mention occur, the train crashes, end of story: why _should_ they be any different from any other train in this regard? What I would not do, however, is create a system where all the other problems are handled through magic, then leave just one part that isn't.


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## OrionDarkwood (Jan 3, 2012)

I have done some research on MAGLEV trains and how they work and are stopped. I think I need to re-desgin the floating train idea. Since my world has magically powered crystals then it should be a simple matter to re-produce the technology. As for the safety features I think I have that one covered if the track is damaged the backups on board should keep it afloat until a safe landing spot can be found. If the train is destroyed or hits something each car has a force cage that will keep the passengers safe for a short time. It needs some polish but I think I have it licked.


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## Devor (Jan 3, 2012)

Ravana said:


> What I would not do, however, is create a system where all the other problems are handled through magic, then leave just one part that isn't.



I kind of get what you're saying, Ravana, and this thread is probably pretty much under wraps . . . but if it's the magic which fails sometimes, wouldn't you need a non-magical failsafe?  And wouldn't it be alright sometimes to use magic to enhance the normal physics, rather than just replace them?


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## OrionDarkwood (Jan 4, 2012)

@Devor good point.. until the Rail Engine is finished. Never enginneering device on the table is the Jelly Shower and Jelly Toilet basically the shower has a gelatinous cube (for those that never played D&D its a semi-sentient cube that eats anything organic) on top of it where water pours through it and is cleaned before falling on the person and draining back into the system.

The jelly toilet is basically same principal but the jelly is below the person (basically a normal toilet with a jelly at the bottom).

Each device holds the jelly in a force cage and if the cage is ever breached a ice bolt kills the jelly.. I am thinking about redesigning this as well to indoor plumbing leading to a sewer system which dumps into a huge jelly field that cleans the water and the water is re-used. I should have pre-warned people most of the devices where thought of years ago (Kaneon was orginally used in a D&D adventure as a teenager and young adult and has slowly eveloved since)


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## Ravana (Jan 6, 2012)

Devor said:


> I kind of get what you're saying, Ravana, and this thread is probably pretty much under wraps . . . but if it's the magic which fails sometimes, wouldn't you need a non-magical failsafe?  And wouldn't it be alright sometimes to use magic to enhance the normal physics, rather than just replace them?



I'd have non-magical systems for a lot more than just failsafes, probably… though part of that would depend on the economics of the magic itself. For instance: do the suspension discs function all the time? If not, what happens to the train when they're off? It probably wouldn't be efficient to power them up just to switch a car onto a siding. 

Again, the converse should also be considered: what happens to a mundane maglev if the system experiences catastrophic failure while at speed? It goes crunch, regardless of what failsafes you have. (A maglev moving over 300 mph takes seven or eight miles to stop. Which is still better than the speed record-holder for wheeled trains–which peaked at 361 mph, then required _48 miles_ to stop.) The sole incident to date of a maglev crashing–at a mere 125 mph, with the train only consisting of three cars–killed 23 people on the train, and "severely" injured all of the rest (fortunately, only another 10… it was on a test track, and only had that many aboard because it was a demo run). So from that perspective, failsafes don't even need to be taken into account, because they simply don't matter.

I have no objection to using magic to enhance normal physics: that was my point, in fact. The problem is in using magic instead of physics for a partial set of related items, then expecting to use normal physics for the rest of that set. While it looks like Orion is content with what he's arrived at, my first thought was the same as your first thought–the completely mundane solution of using redundant systems, even if those systems are themselves magical ones. My second was to put wheels on the train–which solves a number of issues, such as the siding one, what the train rests on when not in motion, etc.–though that wouldn't work very well if the train isn't on a track. And my third was if the guide "wires" could handle the stress of that kind of inertia, there isn't a thing that could break them anyway, so track destruction at least isn't going to be an issue–at least not for the wires, though perhaps what holds them could be broken. That's where physics creeps back _into_ the picture: regardless of magical enhancement or lack thereof, wires shouldn't be able to manage that. 

By the way, I said I could answer the questions I'd raised about the connections between magic and physics. Here they are: 
- I simply wouldn't have the discs be able to lift arbitrary amounts of weight: they'd have limits, and for heavier loads, more may be required. Unless the spells can be intensified at need. (Though this has the potential for creating a separate set of problems once combined with the next couple answers.)
- Propulsion and braking are handled by the discs being angled appropriately: tip them toward the back, it goes forward.
- This also answers why it can climb slopes, and doesn't slide down them–not unless you want it to. Doesn't even matter how steep the slope is, as the train's essentially weightless. Keep in mind, however, that weight is _not_ the same thing as mass.…
- Taking curves at speed is the tricky one (though it becomes much simpler if the wires guiding the train are essentially unbreakable). For a maglev, this is handled by adjusting the forces of the magnets–just as with acceleration and braking–but the task is so complex it can't be done except by computer. To fudge an answer (this is still fantasy we're talking about), the discs are angled, again… but the task, while in this case falling within the borders of human ability, is so intricate it requires a trained [sic] magician to operate each disc–so a minimum of one spell-slinger per car. (Just imagine the railway unions in such a world.…  ) Plus whoever's coordinating them, however that's done, as they'd need to know what sort of curves they're approaching: they can't react quickly enough once they're already on them. Someone would have to be handling the discs anyway, in this model, even if a single person could control all of them when it came to acceleration, braking and slopes. (Alternately, the discs might be able to make subtle adjustments automatically, courtesy of magical gyroscopes, with some threshold level that allows this to take place alongside the larger adjustments used for propulsion.) Though an even simpler solution could be to have the wires at the top of the train: it can't tip over in that case. The _bottom_ might swing out a bit wide, but that's part of the fundamentals of innumerable amusement park rides.

_That's_ enhancing, rather than replacing, the physics involved. My quibble is that I don't see the point in doing this in only some places, while in others ignoring either the physics or magical solutions to physical problems. I'd pick one approach and stick with it through a given story. 

Oh, by the way: wheels are actually normal on most maglev designs–to address some of the things I raise above… and which also gives it the ability to roll to a stop if the power conks out. (Again, tracks are pretty much a necessary adjunct for this to work.)

Also by the way: if something catastrophic happens, my train crashes. They don't build this kind of track where that's expected to be a routine occurrence.


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## Devor (Jan 6, 2012)

Ravana said:


> _That's_ enhancing, rather than replacing, the physics involved. My quibble is that I don't see the point in doing this in only some places, while in others ignoring either the physics or magical solutions to physical problems. I'd pick one approach and stick with it through a given story.



Okay, I think I see where you're drawing a pretty clear line.  You think, I believe, that the train on floating disks is so magical, and makes so little sense in terms of the physics involved, that it's out of place to start worrying about the science now, at least without "upgrading" the science involved in the rest of the train.  I can get behind that.


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## Ravana (Jan 6, 2012)

Devor said:


> Okay, I think I see where you're drawing a pretty clear line.  You think, I believe, that the train on floating disks is so magical, and makes so little sense in terms of the physics involved, that it's out of place to start worrying about the science now, at least without "upgrading" the science involved in the rest of the train.  I can get behind that.



Basically, yeah. I might not have said "makes so little sense" in terms of physics, so much as "doesn't make reference to" physics one way or another; it could make perfect sense, for all I know. (And for all I know, the author was _planning_ on making reference to the physics of the rest of the system; it just didn't sound like that was part of the original notion.) But you got what I was after.


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