# Similarity with other existing story?



## Solomon Tan (Nov 8, 2011)

Good day to all of you,

I was just wondering a question. Will you accidentally write a story, or a plot, or a character and realized that it is exactly or very similar to another? 

I mean, since many of us will be inspired by other stories, or characters and when we write, it might be close to the existing one.. 

What will happen? Is it considered a copy? 

E.G: You create a character. A old, wise wizard who hold a powerful staff that is white and he wore a white robe, able to summon giant eagles to assist him. And he happened to assist the main character in fulfilling his ultimate quest.. 

This character sounds like Gandalf in Lords of the Rings.. So is it considered copying?


----------



## Seth son of Tom (Nov 8, 2011)

i'd say in the end whether you meant to or not, that is how ppl will view it, especially if the other story is very famous like LOTR.


----------



## Solomon Tan (Nov 8, 2011)

So, in the sense, it is almost confirmed that some plots and characters will be repeated... 

But, will it be an issue... Like people will say:" Ah, you copied the character in LOTR.. " Or This plot sounds so similar to that certain storybook..


----------



## Devor (Nov 8, 2011)

Solomon Tan said:


> E.G: You create a character. A old, wise wizard who hold a powerful staff that is white and he wore a white robe, able to summon giant eagles to assist him. And he happened to assist the main character in fulfilling his ultimate quest..
> 
> This character sounds like Gandalf in Lords of the Rings.. So is it considered copying?



Anything can be made to sound like copying in a three-sentence description.  Make it different.

Gandalf was more than an old white wizard who summons giant eagles.  He has a personality.  He has distinct defining relationships with the people around him.  And he had a wicked sword.


----------



## myrddin173 (Nov 8, 2011)

I once read something that said there are only three or four plots in the world and that every story is therefore ripping-off something else. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it, as long as you make it your own.  That was the downfall of Eragon, Paolini didn't do enough to alter the base (the Hero's Journey Archetype) and so its called derivative.


----------



## Solomon Tan (Nov 8, 2011)

Ok.. The reason when I have this enquiry is because I was actually planning out the story that I wanted to write and somehow when i got the main plot figured out, it was a bit similar to some stories that I had read before.. 

Basically, there is this ancient magic that allows humans to become immortals.. Having not only everlasting life, but also a great power.. But that is at the expense of thousands of human lives, sacrificed for this purpose.. Well, you will then have people with evil thoughts and intents doing so to achieve immortality, and the 'good guys' will try to stop that..


----------



## Ghost (Nov 8, 2011)

I think that's vague enough. Since you know which story yours is similar to, you know what progression and results to avoid. You can also manipulate the power struggle, so it isn't the same as the existing story. If everything goes the same way, I'd think you were copying. 

Your idea reminds me of Runelords. Humans were sacrificed in a very specific way, and they also had reavers to contend with. Doing the magic differently and having different personalities, motivations, and conflicts would be enough for me to give the writer a chance. There's also a movie coming out called In Time that sounds a little similar. I doubt Runelords and In Time have the same plot, so you can obviously do a very different take on what appears, on the surface, to be similar concept.


----------



## MichaelSullivan (Nov 8, 2011)

I actually try to watch what I read so I'm not inadvertently influenced. But, it's not uncommon for two people to come up with similar ideas with no interaction. Many people compaere the main charaters of my Riyria Revelation to Fayhred and the Grey Mouser - but I've never read any of those books.  I also read reviews where people say.... "Sullivan was obviously influenced by x, or y, or z and I find it funny because it most cases I had not even heard of the stories I was being compared to.

You can look at almost any plot and see it is playing off something that came before. Twilight is a take off of Buffy the Vampire Slayer...Harry Potter is about any number of stories where an orphan is destined for greatness and an evil entity is rising and must be defeated.  The trick of course is to put your own "spin" on whatever you do. If you have compelling stories, and characters that people love...then you'll be way ahead of the game.


----------



## Devor (Nov 8, 2011)

MichaelSullivan said:


> I actually try to watch what I read so I'm not inadvertently influenced.



I thought I was crazy for feeling that way.  I feel like I should read books off college course lists and Oprah, and then figure out how to expand the humanity of those stories with a fantasy setting.


----------



## lawrence (Nov 11, 2011)

There is nothing new under the sun...so goes the saying. Remember that Tolkien was derivative too, drawing on the tone and even specific stories of old sagas and legends. He was a professor of Anglo Saxon history and language or something like that, and he used its literary heritage quite closely at some points. I think we all absorb influences from the stories we love and the type of fiction we are very familiar with. 

Fantasy writing does have quite a number of arch-types and thats no bad thing in itself, other genres do too. I guess the key is to put great imaginative effort into making characters and storylines memorable and interesting, and as unique as can be whilst bearing in mind that somewhere you will be treading previously mapped ground. What we do is 'creative' writing, so lets be creative


----------



## Kit (Nov 11, 2011)

The Fantasy Novelist's Exam

Is your fantasy plot cliche? - Quiz | Get More Quizzes at Quizilla

Try these..... they made me laugh, although I'm not going to admit how my current Work In Progress scores.....


----------



## FictionQuest (Nov 11, 2011)

There is a very similar thread going on here Being original vs stealing everything - Science Fiction Fantasy Chronicles: forums


----------



## Terra Arkay (Nov 11, 2011)

I got 46% cliche for my fantasy plot


----------



## Elder the Dwarf (Nov 11, 2011)

Not positive, but I'm pretty sure it's impossible to pass that fantasy novelist's exam... is it possible to not be more comfortable with a frying pan than a sword and at the same time not be more comfortable with a sword than a frying pan?  Are all of my female characters supposed to be equally adept with both?


----------



## Kit (Nov 11, 2011)

I was horrified/embarrassed to see how many of the listed cliches I recognized in my story. Stuff I honestly had no clue was cliched. I guess I am just well-read enough to absorb/regurgitate cliches subconsciously, yet not well-read enough to recognize them as such.


----------



## Ghost (Nov 11, 2011)

"A clumsy cooking wench more comfortable with a frying pan than a sword" sounds like someone who reluctantly picks up a sword in the novel when she'd prefers domestic duties. I've seen something similar, and the character was meant to provide comic relief. That character is the type who only survives by luck and no one seems to write her seriously. The "fearless warrioress more comfortable with a sword than a frying pan" calls to mind those gruff female fighters who go against traditional female roles. Brienne from ASoIaF is the only one that stands out for not being a flat character. The other (forgettable) characters I've seen written that way only had one motivation--to not be seen as feminine. I think the point is that your female character is more than just a role in society and more than a thoughtless response to it.

I checked different plots on both of Kit's links. I scored 0-25% on the second one for different plots, but one of them failed the Fantasy Novelist's Exam because the MC might be considered a relative of the villain. The villain absorbed his ancestors' spirits, including his father and grandfather, so I figure that counts as being related.

I still say you're safe, Solomon Tan. It's not a very common plot. There are differences between what you're doing and the example about a wise, old wizard with a staff and robes. One is a plot, the other is a description of a character. One isn't common, and the other is done by a large number of fantasy authors.

I mentioned Runelords, where the attributes were transferred by branding. You could look at other examples of people consuming others in order to extend their own lives. The first thing that comes to mind is the Countess Elizabeth Bathory. She bathed in blood and drank it in an attempt to stay young. (Although, I suppose that would push the magic toward vampirism...)

As long as your magic system and major conflicts different, I don't see a problem with having a similar concept, especially since your characters and setting are bound to be different anyway. I don't think it's copying unless you let the published book influence large chunks the story. Did you arrive at this concept on your own and stumble on a book that already had it, or did the book influence you to do your own take?


----------



## Elder the Dwarf (Nov 11, 2011)

Ouroboros said:


> Brienne from ASoIaF is the only one that stands out for not being a flat character. The other (forgettable) characters I've seen written that way only had one motivation--to not be seen as feminine. I think the point is that your female character is more than just a role in society and more than a thoughtless response to it.



Is Arya flat?  Or Kitiara from Dragonlance?  I don't think so, and my point is that it's almost impossible to have nothing from that list if you're writing a fantasy novel, unless you just go a completely different way with your fantasy.  Which is great, but I don't think is necessary for writing a good, original novel.  I personally prefer more traditional fantasy along the lines of Dragonlance, TLOTR, The Legend of Drizz't, and the ASOIAF, among others.  All of those fail that test, and all of them are great novels in my opinion.


----------



## Benjamin Clayborne (Nov 11, 2011)

I tried my novel on that quiz, and even though I checked off almost nothing, it said 50-75%? That's a little confusing. Apparently it's clichÃ© to not use any clichÃ©s.


----------



## Kit (Nov 11, 2011)

Let us not assume that a frying pan does not make a good weapon. Possibly even BETTER than a sword at extremely close range, and for that element of surprise.


----------



## Benjamin Clayborne (Nov 11, 2011)

Hey, if _Tangled_ taught us anything, it's that frying pans are _excellent_ weapons. Who knew, right?


----------



## Ghost (Nov 12, 2011)

Elder the Dwarf said:


> Is Arya flat?  Or Kitiara from Dragonlance?  I don't think so [...] I personally prefer more traditional fantasy along the lines of Dragonlance, TLOTR, The Legend of Drizz't, and the ASOIAF, among others.  All of those fail that test, and all of them are great novels in my opinion.



I didn't say Arya was flat. I said that, for me, the fearless warrioress calls to mind a "gruff female fighter." She wears men's clothing, has the strength of three men, and carries a very large weapon. She'd sooner kill a man than let him try to romance her. I know I'm not the only person who's seen that character in fantasy novels, stomping around as she spits chewing tobacco. Brienne doesn't fit exactly, but I think GRRM consciously twists those stock characters into something more than the stereotype. He makes "mannish warrior woman" a sympathetic woman with her own goals.

I don't think it's fair to use LOTR is a good example of a book that uses cliches well because it originated a ton of them. Besides, 74 on that exam was "Is your book basically a rip-off of The Lord of the Rings?" which seems to acknowledge it as the source of some of the tropes.

It's hard to come up with something original, but I appreciate when an author has a fresh perspective on a familiar subject. Cliches and tropes aren't unforgivable. It depends on what you do with them. When an author lets them replace character building and common sense, it's a waste of potential. As a reader, I've come across that problem before. Perhaps that's why I don't take the Fantasy Novelist's Exam personally.


----------



## Kit (Nov 12, 2011)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Hey, if _Tangled_ taught us anything, it's that frying pans are _excellent_ weapons. Who knew, right?



I was thinking Lucivar teaching Marian to throw skillets when she showed no aptitude/inclination for learning "standard" weaponry. Hey, did we just find another cliche?


----------



## Thalian (Nov 12, 2011)

I have found the some problematic things in my writings where I will go back and read it and it will sounds fairly similar to something I recently read in another novel. But really, it has all been done before so if you can go back and recognise the error and add in subtle twists and turns to make it your own then you are fine, as long as at the end of the day you feel you didn't explicitly rip off another author's ideas.


----------



## Solomon Tan (Nov 12, 2011)

Ouroboros said:


> "
> As long as your magic system and major conflicts different, I don't see a problem with having a similar concept, especially since your characters and setting are bound to be different anyway. I don't think it's copying unless you let the published book influence large chunks the story. Did you arrive at this concept on your own and stumble on a book that already had it, or did the book influence you to do your own take?



Thanks, Ouroboros.

This concept is partly on my own. I was thinking of a major conflict that will be justified as a major event that cause people to be united to fight. I thought of many, and this idea came up. 

I'm not afraid of you guys using this but I'll say that, the sacrifice of humans will actually be a hidden thing. It's a big magical rune that is etched, and the souls will be absorbed and form a crystal. There are difference in quality of the crystal... The best is that the soul have emotions while it was absorbed.. Terror, fear, excitement, anger, suffering and a mixture of emotions.. Where do you find them all in one place? The battlefield.. 

So this story will have many many wars.. and all these wars are incited by a group of immortals who are doing this to absorb souls.. Ultimately to relieve an ancient demon that was trapped in the world... 

That's the main idea, and i think about it, yeah. I believe not many people will write something like that.. most of the fantasy books(not that I read many of them), don't have this as their concept...


----------



## Elder the Dwarf (Nov 12, 2011)

Ouroboros, 

I agree with you, I think my whole point was that it was a little unreasonable to look at that quiz and take it at face value- which is to say that just because a novel fails that test, it isn't necessarily bad.


----------



## Ghost (Nov 13, 2011)

It sounds like a really interesting idea, Solomon. It must suck for any mortal characters, especially if they realize what's going on. I like that the emotions get absorbed along with the soul because it sounds like a fun way to mess with the immortals.

I understand being uncertain after seeing a vaguely similar idea in print, but I doubt they're really that similar. Years ago, I read the summary of a novel that was _exactly_ like one of my plots. So not cool. 

We both agree on that, Elder. I don't know who David J. Parker or Samuel Stoddard are. The proscription against every single thing on the list and the advice to abandon a novel because of an online quiz are both silly. "Fantasy Novelist's Exam" wasn't the best title for the quiz.


----------



## flashfire07 (Nov 13, 2011)

Well if you're worried about people not reading not reading your book because it's too similar to other works don't worry. Those people will read one book and not pick up another because it is impossible to find a story that is not a completely original creation. For instance, my story I'm currently working on is about a powerful wizard who was slain by an ancient evil and has returned to life to seek revenge. On the surface it is very cliched, but a cliche is merely a common, predictable and dull element. The trick is to add something to keep interesting, for instance my wizard is a giant ferret with a penchant for eating his slain enemies. Adding in interesting traits can stop a story becoming dull and therefore avoid it becoming cliched.


----------



## Terra Arkay (Nov 13, 2011)

flashfire07 said:


> Well if you're worried about people not reading not reading your book because it's too similar to other works don't worry. Those people will read one book and not pick up another because it is impossible to find a story that is not a completely original creation. For instance, my story I'm currently working on is about a powerful wizard who was slain by an ancient evil and has returned to life to seek revenge. On the surface it is very cliched, but a cliche is merely a common, predictable and dull element. The trick is to add something to keep interesting, for instance my wizard is a giant ferret with a penchant for eating his slain enemies. Adding in interesting traits can stop a story becoming dull and therefore avoid it becoming cliched.



I must say... that is genius :O


----------



## Liu Xaun (Nov 13, 2011)

I had a typical older mentor archetype who dies, so I changed some things to make it my own. I made him a half breed of my own made up race and gave him "daddy issues" with his much older, demonic, father.


----------



## lawrence (Nov 14, 2011)

Lol Benjamin. 

That online quiz is pretty useful ha haa ! Its a good checklist, but I don't think that they are *all* unbreakable rules.

Quite a few of them would never trip you up if you are doing your research properly.


----------



## Wormtongue (Dec 19, 2011)

Kit said:


> The Fantasy Novelist's Exam
> 
> Is your fantasy plot cliche? - Quiz | Get More Quizzes at Quizilla
> 
> Try these..... they made me laugh, although I'm not going to admit how my current Work In Progress scores.....



I came across the Exam today and decided to see if anybody had posted it here.

Clearly it's meant as humor, but with a great deal of truth.  It certainly does make you think about just how easy it is to fall into the standard cliches.


----------



## Ravana (Dec 19, 2011)

Tried it, and scored in the "0-25% ClichÃ©" range. Guess that means I ought to get the story finished some day.…


----------



## Johnny Cosmo (Dec 19, 2011)

Hmm. I got 25 - 50 percent with only three selections. One of which was that they were born in the fantasy world, another being that their name is reasonably common, and the last that they are of noble-blood. 25 - 50 percent. Really? The first two selections just... make sense, and it's not as if my main character is heir to anything either.



> Tried it, and scored in the "0-25% ClichÃ©" range. Guess that means I ought to get the story finished some day.…



Perhaps you'd better check out a more reliable quiz first! It looks like 'things that make sense' is a cliche.


----------



## Neurosis (Dec 19, 2011)

0-25%. I basically didn't select anything: there is no love interest, and there is no evil 'villain'. I love how this quiz assumes so many tropes, it really makes you think about them.


----------



## Wormtongue (Dec 19, 2011)

So basically, if I don't want to be cliche...

I should write a story about a common person with a common name, who had a wonderful childhood, with no love interest, who isn't related to anybody, doesn't practice magic, doesn't own any magic items, never got any advice from anyone older or wiser than they, who doesn't live in a fantasy world, who doesn't defeat a villain.

My, doesn't that sound exciting...  

On the other hand, it has got me to thinking that some of my plot devices need to be tweaked...


----------

