# MC becoming the villian?



## Gwydir (Dec 20, 2013)

Hello fellow fantasy nuts. 

I was wo dering what your thoughts on a MC becoming a bad guy? 

In my story the MC, Rhale, is a soldier turned battle mage after being brought back to life and unwillingly possessed by the spirit of an ancient mage.In the society Rhale belongs to mages are kept under close guard but respected for their power. They are also a very industrualist nation and the system of government resembles idealist communism where everyone has their set place but everyone is equal. Rhale was accepted into the army as a favour from the king to Rhales father on his death bed. And thus never even had a chance to pick his own path.

 Rhale is killed in the sacking of the mage temple located in the nations capital by the western kingdom, who use battlemages regularly in their army. The long and short being that Rhale becomes torn between the king he served for so long, his new found mage brethren, the western kingdom who after learning of him want him for themselves and eventually the gods who see how powerful he is becoming and wish to make him their presence on earth. 

His new found magucal ability is very much a curse. And since he is not naturally gifted with magic (only through the possession) his mental state suffers and his repressed resentment towards those who shaped his whole life for him  and those who try to continue to control his life comes to the surface in a very dark manifestation. 


My plan was to go with the while "you die a hero or live long enough to become a villain" thing. Rhale would turn against all that want to control him and force them to be something he controls out of fear of what he could do to them. 

So, thoughts guys? It's just an idea and one I personally have never read about before and hoight it could be interesting.


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## Noma Galway (Dec 20, 2013)

That's actually a really interesting idea. I would read it and enjoy the concept. Granted, my MC is a mentally disturbed and scarred assassin and the other POV character is cold and manipulative and insane and crazy smart and can control minds. So. No, I like it, but I think there would be some readers who would find it strange and disturbing and maybe not like it.


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## teacup (Dec 20, 2013)

I love the whole progression of "good guy" to villain thing, even more so when it's the MC. (Not saying he has to start out good, he could already be pretty bad or at least morally grey and become the villain.)


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## Ruby (Dec 20, 2013)

Hi Gwydir, this sounds interesting. Your hero can start off being noble and good but then become bitter and twisted. (As happens so often in "real" life  ) As long as he still has redeeming qualities and you make it clear to the reader why he has changed, I don't see that this would be a problem.


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## Mythopoet (Dec 20, 2013)

Sounds like a classic anti-hero.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 20, 2013)

I have to admit, embarrassingly, when I saw your posting title... I rolled my eyes and reluctantly clicked.  

So often, people choose a concept for shock value and don't consider the consequences of that choice.  "What if I write the story from the _zombie's_ POV?"  OR  "What if really, it wasn't the butler... it was ninja assassins from the future!"

I read the title and just _knew_ this was going to be another one of those, like... "I'll make my good guy get stuck in a crazy witch's dungeon and then she does a spell and turns him evil.."

Like I said... I'm embarrassed I discounted the concept based on title alone.  

Moving past my confession... I LOVE this.  Yeah.  THis is a really strong concept.  Let me tell you the things I think are strongest about this and why you should DEFINITELY write this book:

1) The concept of a good guy who doesn't have an opportunity to make his own choices.  As people from developed countries, where we're raised being told "You can be anything you want to be..." This is HORRIFIC!  But we can all relate...  We all have to go to a job we don't LOVE as much as writing and traveling the world.  We all have people in our lives we make concessions for.  You have an opportunity to play on all those little relatable things that will really connect the reader to the MC while he goes through his transition.

2)  That he died and is resurrected is a great concept.  We, as readers, would have to ask... "Does death change a person?"  I mean... I'd probably be bitter if I was resurrected.  This is a perfect way to introduce his decline.

3)  Being caught in the middle.  We've all had split loyalties.  Maybe it was a simple as two friends fighting and we didn't want to talk to either of them until they sorted it out.. maybe it's as heart-breaking as your family vs. the person you married, leaving you an awkward mediator.  I love that this is also a fundamentally relatable position.  He's got to choose loyalties and maybe the first choice is wrong and he suffers for it.  Or maybe it's his indecision that presents problems and breaks down his faculties at a fast pace. 

Bottom line... I misjudged and I'm really excited about your ides.  I think this could be a very powerful novel if you can connect well to the reader.  All your major concepts are very easy to understand and relate to, the character's journey is a progression that (once you've hooked us) we won't be able to put down, even if he ends up evil.  Imagine reading the book of Sauron or something... THEN reading LOTR.  Like, what if we got to know his whole life and the twisted way circumstances changed him into a being of evil (not comparing it to your MC, just saying how cool it would be if you wrote a second book to follow, watching the heroes who have to defeat your evil MC from the first one).  

When you get some of this done, be sure to post it to the showcase or PM me.  You've already hooked me  

Best wishes!


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## Ginger Bee (Dec 20, 2013)

A villain protagonist is definitely possible.  Check out Gerald Tarrant in The Coldfire Trilogy.  Also, I am reminded of Rand from The Wheel of Time series, when his powers were taking him to dark places.  I think the key would be in making this villain/protagonist vulnerable and give him points that make him sympathetic.  Of course,  your protagonist and your MC aren't always the same person, so there are possibilities there, as well.


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## Ireth (Dec 20, 2013)

Sweeney Todd is another good example of a villain protagonist. The viewer is sympathetic to his plights (he's imprisoned for 15 years on a false charge; then his wife is r*ped and his daughter kidnapped by the man who instigated the imprisonment), but horrified by what Sweeney does in his search for revenge. Sweeney is undoubtedly a bad guy, and the antagonist just happens to be worse.


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## Gwydir (Dec 20, 2013)

That's kinda how it starts. In Varkin society those who show magical promise are forbidden to marry or do anything except be taught how to keep their magic under control. Being in the army Rhale sees the potential for battle mages but never actively does anything about it out of respect for the king. Also that mages are treated like dogs secretly by some of the higher ups. Once he becomes possessed and shows signs he can now use magic he is discharged from the army and forced to livr as a mage. So now he must fight a war with the west kingdom on a side he's entirely unfamiliar with.

Magic is feard by many people in Varkin and so some people Rhale is close to become scared of him and turn their backs. And now he can't marry ir have children like he wanted and some of the mage order are hostile to him because of his soldier background. Also the mage who has possessed him has his own motivations. So he's torn in so many directions, none of which he really wants.

I think by the end he won't be just an anti hero. He will no longer be a hero at all. He will be cold and ruthless. That's my current intention anyway.

I


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## A. E. Lowan (Dec 20, 2013)

I think Myth may be right - what you have is an anti-hero.  To be villain, an antagonist, you need a protagonist - which leads to the question, "Who's going to be your new 'hero?'"

Who are you pitting this guy up against?  The system bend on twisting him to their will?  That makes him an anti-hero.  Even Sweeney Todd can be called an anti-hero in that he is to a large degree sympathetic, like your Rhale.  Make him as cold and ruthless as you want - but as long as he's going up against forces worse than himself, as long as he remains sympathetic and torn, he is an anti-hero.  And there is nothing wrong with this.  Anti-heroes are fascinating.

As is the villain who seeks redemption.

Are you talking about just one book or a series?


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## Gwydir (Dec 20, 2013)

Trilogy. My intention as I developed this idea was to have Rhale become the outright villain by the end of it. Which is the set up to the next trilogy where a new hero comes out of a kind of post apocalyptic world after decades of Rhales rule to defeat him. That's my INTENTION though. Whether it stays that way is still undecided. But the more I think about it the more I like it. I see Rhale as being an anti hero for 90% of the first trilogy but in the last part he becomes downright nasty.


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## Nagash (Dec 20, 2013)

Quoting back this precious saying, "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain", MC turned villain, or even main villain are quite common. And while all are not a sheer success, i can think of many bad guys with these "tragic hero" origins. The main example i can think of remains Arthas, from Warcraft III... A great paladin, and a greater Lich King yet.

For some reasons, MC turned villain can be extremely compelling, especially if the "tragedy" card is played correctly. Besides, seeing the MC slowly changing, rotting inside, must be a fascinating read. I would definitely read a book following such a plot.


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## Ireth (Dec 20, 2013)

Nagash said:


> For some reasons, MC turned villain can be extremely compelling, especially if the "tragedy" card is played correctly. Besides, seeing the MC slowly changing, rotting inside, must be a fascinating read. I would definitely read a book following such a plot.



I second that. I have one such story in the back of my mind. Also equally compelling to me is the opposite story of the villain seeking redemption -- but that is a discussion for another thread.


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## Rullenzar (Dec 21, 2013)

I can't think of any books but 'Public enemies' and 'Lawless' both are great anit-hero movies. This form of writing is rarer to see and so it brings more spice to a readers life if done well. You seem to have some pretty neat ideas formulating so I'm sure you'd be able to pull it off. On a side note, if you do end up making a trilogy with a hero to defeat your created villain. Try not to fall into the trap of making the hero lackluster and letting your baddie overshadow him. An appealing hero will really make readers cringe because they want both to achieve their goals but only one will most likely at the cost of the others life.

That's one thing I really despised about the second batman movie. Heath ledgers Joker was just so much better that batman was almost irrelevant in my eyes. I didn't want batman to win just because his name was batman, he did nothing in that movie to make me want to root for him.


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## psychotick (Dec 21, 2013)

Hi,

It's a clever idea but my thought is that you need to find some reason for your readers to like / identify with your character. Something that makes them want him to survive and / or succeed. 

My best guess as to who you might want to base him on would be Nemo (twenty thousand leagues), or maybe if you truly want to head into madness Ahab (Moby Dick). But these are truly difficult characters to write. (Which is one reason that they are written from the perspective of an outside observer.) Both of these guys have redeeming qualities, which makes us want to admire and root for them, even as we can see them heading relentlessly down into the abyss.

If your guy can retain a central piece of who he was, who he wanted to be, a spark of goodness and warmth, then yes people will root for him. If he loses everything and becomes just cold and nasty you'll lose readers.

As another thought, a long time ago I watched two French films, Jean de Florette and Manon of the Well. And they are two very well crafted almost soap opera like films that work as a perfectly balanced pair. The first shows the complete destruction of a man as he is torn apart by greedy people. The second shows the vengeance against the perpertrators by JDF's daughter. And in the same way I would suggest you could do this as two distinct works. The first your MC's slide into darkness. The second his clawing his way out of it.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Erudite (Dec 22, 2013)

It's been done before, so surely it can be done again. Madness takes everyone in power, either in small or large portions. Just be sure to write it well.

He takes his power, he's on the verge of killing the gods, and his best friend pushes a knife into his heart.

He's about to destroy an entire city, and a young child sells their story, and the reason that all humans, not just his town, deserve to live. MC kills himself.

Lots to do, so many options.


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## Nagash (Dec 22, 2013)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> It's a clever idea but my thought is that you need to find some reason for your readers to like / identify with your character. Something that makes them want him to survive and / or succeed.
> 
> ...



Ahab really is the greatest tragic villain i've known. Such folly, yet, such greatness. Heart-Breaking character - at least that's what i felt - especially as the story closes in.


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## psychotick (Dec 23, 2013)

Hi,

Is he even a villain? I mean really? In the end he is truly mad. Obsessed with the great white whale. And that obsession clearly carries him beyond the bounds of knowing right from wrong. But he's not so much a villain as a madman. To me he epitomises that saying - "Whom the gods would destroy they first make mad."

But I'm pretty sure that's why the book is not written from his perspective. (That and it was a fairly common writing system back then to write the observer narrative - Nemo, Sherlock, Doctor Moreau etc.) It would be hard to get into the madman's head and if you did it would probably be like a continuing stream of "Hunt the whale, hunt the whale, hunt the whale ..." Not a lot else really going on up there.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Nagash (Dec 23, 2013)

While I do agree, one must consider or at least understand, that villain and hero are often - or at least, in non-fantasy novels such as Moby Dick - very subjective notion. Objectively speaking, Ahab is definitely mad, but his evil traits are mainly described from the viewpoint of Ishmael. 

Thus, one could say Ahab is a villain, while stating that such perception is strictly subjective.

In any case, Ahab was definitely a great character - not to mention a great orator.

"From hell's heart I stab at thee..."


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## T.Allen.Smith (Dec 27, 2013)

If you want to see a fantastic progression of "good guy goes bad" go watch the entire series of "Breaking Bad". Even the title says that's what it's all about. The concept was purely formed from the idea of protagonist turns antagonist.  

It was do well done, that even after the character had turned dark & devious, I still found myself rooting for him, or at least some small redemption.   

So...that being said, a few considerations...  

Why do little kids still dress up as Darth Vader on Halloween? In my opinion, it's because that protagonist was originally well formed. We know there is more to him than just being a dark lord for the sake of evil alone. With Vader, there are elements to be feared...there are elements to be pitied. Further, we might identify with the choices he made, even if they are the wrong choices (for good or rationalized reasons), and how those choices may have a corrupting effect.   

Above all, make the transition gradual. It will be much more believable if the character looks back and thinks "How did I get here? How did I become a monster?". In my opinion, it shouldn't be a single choice or event. Rather, it should be a series of small choices and actions which can be dismissed, or rationalized singularly. However, the combined effect over time corrupts to a point of no return.  

One last consideration of Vader...and a warning. The prequels jacked up a fantastic villain. The jump was performed too quickly. It's not believable to watch a character on the brink of turning dark suddenly just decide to start killing infant Jedi in training. That jump was far too extreme.   

1) Move gradually.  
2) Make the choices understandable if not condoned.  
3) Allow the character to rationalize.  
4) A mix of pity and fear (or similar contrasts) can be powerful. 
5) Earn the pity. The villain sacrifices a lot in making the wrong choices, perhaps even the very thing that drove them down a dark path to begin with.


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## AnomanderRake (Feb 5, 2014)

I love reading an anti-hero story. It is very difficult to create and pull off an anti-hero character. If you are able to do, kudos.


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