# Big vs. Small Publishers



## Black Dragon (May 2, 2011)

Which would you prefer working with: 

A big publishing house with tremendous resources and connections?  Or a smaller publisher where you will receive more personal attention?

Have you had any experiences with either?


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## At Dusk I Reign (May 3, 2011)

I'll go big. Not that it'll ever be an issue - I'll drop down stone dead before I ever reach the end of the unstructured horror that is my novel. I rather like cold and impersonal when it comes to business dealings, though. It no doubt has something to do with my upbringing, but I resent little scrotes who are half my age using my first name when we've only just been introduced. Call me Mister, dammit, or I'll take my business elsewhere! Touchy? Moi?


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## Telcontar (May 3, 2011)

Go big or go home!

Seriously, I want as large a publisher as I can get, provided that is what will get my book out to the most readers. I just want to know people are reading - and one would hope, enjoying - what I write.

Too, I don't think my writing is quite niche enough to NEED a small publishing house... I'd be the first to admit it's rather mainstream fare.

Sadly, I've had no experience with professional publishing of any kind. Yet.


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## Ophiucha (May 3, 2011)

Even though I do write a bit niche, and would _accept_ a small publisher, the sort of niche I am writing for isn't exactly underground. There are a few big name authors out there, Catherynne M. Valente and China MiÃ©ville in a way, who are writing something similar. I would at least give Ballantine and Tor and them a good effort before I find a small publisher.


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## The Dark One (Sep 14, 2012)

I've only had experience with small so far.

I've written several times about how I came to write my first published book, so I won't bore you with that again. The thing was, I absolutely KNEW that this time I'd cracked it. After many years of trying, I knew I'd finally hit upon the right formula, and sure enough, the first fiction publisher I showed it to accepted it. I've often wondered since whether I should have shown it to some bigger publishers first, but... I offered to a small publisher, he said yes, and I couldn't sign the contract quick enough.

The pros...you get to work closely with publisher and editorial team and have a lot of say in the production of the book. They even used a photo my wife took for the cover! (That would never happen at a big publisher.)

The cons...and there is really only one. Small publishers have much less clout in the market and virtually no marketing budget. The marketing budget was really only used for sending out review copies. There was no advertising, and the distributor did little to push it - even though it was the top selling fiction title for that distributor in 2010 (and they distribute for about 60 small publishers) and had numerous good reviews. I lost count of the number of times I'd walk into a bookshop, find no copies on the shelves, and ask whether they had it. They'd check the computer and say: Oh...we've sold out. And I'd ask why don't you get some more? But you could tell that you were dealing with some ratbag kid who couldn't be arsed doing anything other than stand at the till and accept cash. I reckon slack bookshops and lazy distributor cost me many many sales. Sales still trickle along but the book never reached the critical mass it needed to gain real traction in the market place...maybe later when a subsequent book goes berserk and the  new readers start looking up my backlist?

As for that, I'm holding out for a big publisher next time. I want the big print run, marketing and distribution that keeps lots of books on the shelves and being replenished when they sell out. (FFS!) And I just want a taste of that big publisher experience. I've actually just had an offer from another small publisher for my new book, but my new book is a vast improvement on my last one and I really am hoping it will take me to the next level. I think I need a bigger publisher to get there, but if I don't get a bigger offer by the end of the year I'll go with the existing offer. (Fortunately, he is quite realistic and understands my position.)


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## Telcontar (Sep 14, 2012)

Threadcromancy!

Though this does give me the opportunity to change my answer to "None of the above."


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## MichaelSullivan (Sep 24, 2012)

The Dark One said:


> As for that, I'm holding out for a big publisher next time. I want the big print run, marketing and distribution that keeps lots of books on the shelves and being replenished when they sell out. (FFS!) And I just want a taste of that big publisher experience. I've actually just had an offer from another small publisher for my new book, but my new book is a vast improvement on my last one and I really am hoping it will take me to the next level. I think I need a bigger publisher to get there, but if I don't get a bigger offer by the end of the year I'll go with the existing offer. (Fortunately, he is quite realistic and understands my position.)



I don't want to bust your bubble, but I feel like you might need some light of reality.  The stocking situation really isn't in the hands of the publisher. B&N is routinely stocking only 3 - 4 books of a new title and after the first 60 days cutting back to 1 and when it sells, order new ones.  This means you can be "out of stock" often. It's not the publishers who can change this behavior it has to do with not being able to compete with the shelf space of Amazon and it's better to have 1 of 1,000 titles than 10 of 100.

A standard $5,000 advance doesn't get a marketing budget.  I had a six-figure advance and I did get one, but really that doesn't launch the book like it needs to be.  Truth is whether you are self-published, small-press published, or big-six you need to be the one doing the marketing.  In the catalog my books were released in there were 34 authors and 2 were NYT bestsellers. The entire "marketing department" is 2 people .... they really can't do much for 34 authors especially when a lot of their time is dedicated to the 2 bestsellers.


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## The Dark One (Sep 24, 2012)

Thanks for that Michael.

I suspect the industry might be slightly different in Australia - certainly my agent thinks it worth holding out a bit longer before accepting the existing offer. The big publishers here tend to have their own distribution arms (so I gather) and have some sway in the bookshops. Certainly they have a lot more reps going back in to check the shelves than my last distributor (1 - 2 reps per state).

I did heaps of marketing for my first book - even spent some of my own money - but when you have a full time job it's hard to generate a lot of momentum. Also, no sooner did my book come out, the Red Group collapsed and three of the major chains closed down. Kinda had an impact. 

Still, you have to believe in yourself. My new book is (I think) very strong and after all that work I don't want to waste my shot on a publisher that can't do it justice. I'm holding out for that bigger publisher who can help take me there...for a bit longer anyway.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Sep 24, 2012)

Um... Depends? 

I can see big advantages to going with a major publisher for at least some books. The exposure of being on B&N shelves, and the extra exposure if you get a high five figure or greater advance (because then you'll get their marketing department engaged on publicity for your book) can be of significant benefit to your career. Basically, I think about contracts with large publishers as a publicity deal for writers, today; you are exchanging lesser profit margins on the book for some level of marketing boost from their efforts (even just placement on physical bookstore shelves can be a marketing boost).

In most cases, a small press can't do anything I can't do myself. Most of them can't get my book into physical bookstores, so they're stuck selling my book in the same venues I do: mostly online. Most of them don't have a significant name that will boost sales. So I'm giving a small press half or more of my earnings in exchange for editing and a cover, which frankly isn't a very good deal.

But there are exceptions. Ridan (ironic, since Michael is posting in this thread!) is one. They have a very, very strong record of outstanding sales on pretty much every book they produce. To me, that says they are marketing their books very well, and again, marketing is the main value you're going to get out of a publisher. If you're NOT getting strong marketing out of a publisher, what, precisely, are they doing for their percentage? Stuff you can get done yourself for under a thousand bucks, like cover and editing? That's not a good trade off.

So one thing I would do, when looking at any small press,is scan the Amazon rankings of their recently released books. How many are in the top 5000 Kindle books? That implies either a well known author (unlikely for a small press) or powerful marketing efforts. How many in the top 20k? Again, there is an implication of decent marketing there. If every book a publisher has released in the last six months or so is in the top 20k, then you've got a good idea that something very consistent is happening with the marketing of that publisher's books.

If, on the other hand, you see six titles, ranked 400k, 360k, 300k, 250k, 100k, and 20k, odds are very good the publisher isn't doing diddly, and the one outlier is a writer who's working her tail off to sell books. I'd avoid that small press. I'd just self publish the book before going there.


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## MichaelSullivan (Sep 24, 2012)

Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> Um... Depends?
> But there are exceptions. Ridan (ironic, since Michael is posting in this thread!) is one. They have a very, very strong record of outstanding sales on pretty much every book they produce. To me, that says they are marketing their books very well, and again, marketing is the main value you're going to get out of a publisher. If you're NOT getting strong marketing out of a publisher, what, precisely, are they doing for their percentage? Stuff you can get done yourself for under a thousand bucks, like cover and editing? That's not a good trade off.



Ridan does have a good track record but they are a) mostly ebooks (where the playing field is even between self and press (big or small), b) the titles are carefully chosen, c) marketing is a big part of what Ridan does.

Most small press publishers don't have the same track record.  I wholly agree with Kevin...checkout their Amazon rankings and if all the books you see are 100,000+ (kindles) then they really aren't moving very many copies.


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## The Dark One (Sep 28, 2012)

Got rejected by another big publisher today (that makes three) so am more and more tempted to take up the small publisher offer before he hears about the big publisher rejections and gets cold feet.

It's very depressing the way the big publishers are all saying how much they like the book but finding reasons beyond the actual story not to publish it. They all seem to come back to 'not quite famous enough'. Come back when you're famous so that we don't have to invest time and money in creating your profile.

No doubt I am not the only one in this position.


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## Devor (Sep 28, 2012)

I'm sorry to hear that, Dark One.  At least they liked your work - you could've gotten form letters.


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## Aosto (Sep 28, 2012)

It seems it's much the same as the job market. Come back when you have more experience, but to get more experience you have to be hired. It's a vicious circle, just keep trying at it. Go with the small publisher if you must, or keep submitting to the big dogs. If you aren't absolutely hurting financially and can handle taking on the small guys, then go for it.


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## MichaelSullivan (Oct 3, 2012)

The Dark One said:


> Got rejected by another big publisher today (that makes three) so am more and more tempted to take up the small publisher offer before he hears about the big publisher rejections and gets cold feet.
> 
> It's very depressing the way the big publishers are all saying how much they like the book but finding reasons beyond the actual story not to publish it. They all seem to come back to 'not quite famous enough'. Come back when you're famous so that we don't have to invest time and money in creating your profile.
> 
> No doubt I am not the only one in this position.



It's been many, many years since I've gone through a submission process, so I can't say how prevalent this is.  I do believe though that my self-publishing was a huge factor in providing some "street cred" of my "writing chops."  I'm not saying this is a reason to go that route - but it's something to consider.


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