# Another Cover Just for Fun



## Trick (Dec 12, 2016)

As I work on improving my writing and finishing my WIP I am trying to teach myself about cover design. I've always dabbled (at best) in art and digital art but cover design is a different animal. My first attempt was a disaster. My second one went through several iterations and reached 'acceptable' I think. I like this new one a lot. It was inspired by a piece of art that I saw. Thoughts and opinions are welcome. This is not exactly going onto the book no matter what. It's just an experiment and a learning experience.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 13, 2016)

Trick this is fantastic!


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## Trick (Dec 13, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> Trick this is fantastic!



Glad you like it!

Since this is a learning experience for me, does this entice you to read the book? What does it tell you about the book?

One mistake I've made in the past is to put too much on the cover and try to give the reader a very broad picture of the world. The direction I've gone now is to just give a taste. However, with just a taste, it becomes very important which taste is given.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 13, 2016)

I love that you left it black and white with the tiny bit of red. This screams "high quality" to me. Covers that are in color and are illustrations of faces or castles etc. seem to me to be more commercial, where this cover says something different. It says independent, artistic, literary. 

I know this isn't your cover, but the title hooks me. So many questions raised, What is a darkling sun, and what is the mark of a thief? I want to open the cover and find out. 

The way the forest and the mountains and the city are all twisted into each other, with the city upside down, also speaks to my curiosity. I want to know what that symbolizes and how it relates to the book itself. Again, wanting to read the first page to find out. 

All in all it just really grabs me. It piques my curiosity. You have hooked me before I have even read a word.


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## Nimue (Dec 13, 2016)

I think this is very interesting as a concept or mock-up...there's a few issues that I might look at before going forward with it, though.

- The use of the same font at different scalings.  You can tell that the author text was stretched wider than the title.  In general, try to avoid unfixed-ratio scaling of text, and use a wider or thinner font as necessary.  Also, using such a messy/complicated font for all three texts doesn't really work--subtitle and author should be in a simpler, cleaner font.

-  The image is cool, but suffering from a big difference in line weight/detail from top to bottom that makes it look pasted-together.  I'd suggest using stock of trees/branches that matches the detail of the buildings above.

- This last one is pretty subjective, but I'll say it anyway.  The title and subtitle both sound like straightforward high fantasy.  The image of the guy in a suit with a spear and a shield seems more heavily-symbolic stock photo than anything...high-concept something-punk, maybe.  Looking at this cover, I'm really not sure what's inside, and I think the art/title mismatch is part of that.  If I could ask, what are you trying to convey as far as theme and sub-genre go?


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## Trick (Dec 13, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> I love that you left it black and white with the tiny bit of red. This screams "high quality" to me. Covers that are in color and are illustrations of faces or castles etc. seem to me to be more commercial, where this cover says something different. It says independent, artistic, literary.
> 
> I know this isn't your cover, but the title hooks me. So many questions raised, What is a darkling sun, and what is the mark of a thief? I want to open the cover and find out.
> 
> ...



Great, that's basically what I was going for! And actually, this is the the real title and subtitle of my book so I'm glad they grab you. The book may not be finished, but I'm an outliner so I know the whole story already and a title is something I just need to have. Not sure why, just an idiosyncrasy I guess.


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## Devor (Dec 13, 2016)

Nimue said:


> - This last one is pretty subjective, but I'll say it anyway.  The title and subtitle both sound like straightforward high fantasy.  The image of the guy in a suit with a spear and a shield seems more heavily-symbolic stock photo than anything...high-concept something-punk, maybe.  Looking at this cover, I'm really not sure what's inside, and I think the art/title mismatch is part of that.  If I could ask, what are you trying to convey as far as theme and sub-genre go?



I had this same thought as Nimue.  The cover looks really cool, but having seen your previous cover attempts, I was surprised that this was for the same book.  It gives me very different vibes about the book is actually about.


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## Trick (Dec 13, 2016)

Nimue said:


> I think this is very interesting as a concept or mock-up...there's a few issues that I might look at before going forward with it, though.



Concept is a perfect word for it. It was inspired by a piece of art (though it turned out quite different, inspiration being fickle) and I'd probably turn to a graphic designer friend of mine to do the real thing. 



Nimue said:


> - The use of the same font at different scalings.  You can tell that the author text was stretched wider than the title.  In general, try to avoid unfixed-ratio scaling of text, and use a wider or thinner font as necessary.  Also, using such a messy/complicated font for all three texts doesn't really work--subtitle and author should be in a simpler, cleaner font.



Okay, this I like. Yes, the font is stretched oddly but I was having a hard time finding the clean font that worked well with the main one. (probably could have put more effort into that, to be honest). I need to search for more fonts and see if I can find something that works. I'm not married to the main font either. 



Nimue said:


> -  The image is cool, but suffering from a big difference in line weight/detail from top to bottom that makes it look pasted-together.  I'd suggest using stock of trees/branches that matches the detail of the buildings above.



You're right on this one, these are from stock images, heavily manipulated, but they were all free (and thus of varying quality). I'd be willing to pay for the best once I settle on using a design. This one is still in the "just a test" phase. However, I'd go the other way on line weights. I'd prefer to reduce the detail of the buildings to match the forest. More vector than photo. Just my instinct, and a graphic designer with book cover experience may well disagree. 



Nimue said:


> - This last one is pretty subjective, but I'll say it anyway.  The title and subtitle both sound like straightforward high fantasy.  The image of the guy in a suit with a spear and a shield seems more heavily-symbolic stock photo than anything...high-concept something-punk, maybe.  Looking at this cover, I'm really not sure what's inside, and I think the art/title mismatch is part of that.  If I could ask, what are you trying to convey as far as theme and sub-genre go?



It could be seen as a good thing that the genre is mysterious to you because, it's a mystery to me as well. I'll try to give it a classification, which will be ridiculous, to make my point. It is Dark Sci-Fantasy, about a young assassin, with both relatively 'high' magic and magical technology that appears on it's face to simply be very advanced science. There are old gas-powered vehicles, hover-vehicles and horse-drawn carts. People dress in what might be called victorian style while carrying tele-rifles and scopes that can see through walls. 

EDIT: I'll add that this mash-up of technology may seem arbitrary but, it actually does make sense in the story's context. The magical technology has caused rapid advancement in some areas while others remain stagnant and there is a massive racial rift in the main society (there is literally a wall between them) and the tech is basically split up by economic class. 

EDIT: Oh... and there are robots. Sentient robots. 

Basically, it's a hodge-podge mash-up. The story, however, is a bit more traditional. It could be boiled down to a hero's journey (albeit, with an anti-hero, not that this concept is new). 

The cover was an attempt to impart a few ideas. One, this story takes place in a mixed-up world that will be both foreign and familiar. 
Two, the forest represents the challenge.
Three, the city is both a goal and an ominous force. 

That's about it, I guess.


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## Trick (Dec 13, 2016)

Devor said:


> I had this same thought as Nimue.  The cover looks really cool, but having seen your previous cover attempts, I was surprised that this was for the same book.  It gives me very different vibes about the book is actually about.



That makes sense to me. I'm not sure what I want to convey with the cover that I actually use and I'm also not sure what my attempts actually do convey. Nimue's "high-concept something-punk" is probably the closest I've gotten to conveying what I was shooting for.

EDIT: Another thing about the two covers seeming to come from different books. The book is in three parts. The first takes place in slums and then partially in the wealthy city and is about the MC's rise through a criminal organization. In that part, he is an assassin and a thief.

The second part is about him going to prison, discovering the history of his people and then escaping and seeking the magic of his people in the wilderness. He literally has to use a spear to kill wild animals to gain the tribal magic. He wants to use the magic to become a powerful force back in the city, not necessarily for good, but this part of the book is very transformative for the MC. He begins to lose some of his pride. 

The third part is about him returning home to make is way with his new powers and discovering that his goals are miniscule compared to what he should actually be doing, which is saving his people from the main villain - the leader of the higher class society. He wanted to kill people who had wronged him but he comes to the realization that his problems are small potatoes.


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## Chessie (Dec 14, 2016)

It doesn't speak genre to me. Is your book UF or Scifi? You do want your cover(s) to stand out but also be indicative of genre. One way to test this is by hitting  up Amazon and looking through the the best-sellers list and comparing how your cover looks next to those in the same genre AND niche. The only reason why I say best-sellers list is because it's the easiest one to find given Amazon's crazy crap lists at the moment.

But, if you know exactly who your target market is, search by keywords on there and see if you can't bring up books that are similar in genre to yours and compare covers then.


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## Trick (Dec 14, 2016)

The book is a little bit of several genres. It has UF elements (takes place largely in a city, the tech level is between Victorian earth and near future earth and the similarities to earth can give it the feel of UF) but it's on a different world so it doesn't technically qualify. It's semi-scifi because there is high technology beyond anything we can make on earth but it is neither on earth nor does any of it take place in space. It is science-fantasy or, as I am nerdily fond of calling it, sci-fantasy. It also skirts the edge of Grimdark, if not outright crosses over a few times. 

So, I don't know which genre's covers to look at. I can look at them all but that will be too many choices. 

Here are a couple covers of books that I think are similar to mine in ways that make me feel the target market is the same:






Same book, different cover


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## Trick (Dec 14, 2016)

cont'd













So, it wouldn't be entirely alone but perhaps the stark black-and-white would set it apart. But is that bad or good? I don't really know.


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## Chessie (Dec 14, 2016)

Then actually your cover looks really close. Maybe just a hint bit more red? Also...now take this with a grain of salt because you know your target audience and story better than I do, but the city background on your cover looks too modern. Is there a way to make it more Victorian-esque? Since Victorian has inspired your work, perhaps consider adding that in there and it would match very well with your samples here.


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## Trick (Dec 14, 2016)

Well, that's good I suppose.

I like the idea of going Victorian with the inverted cityscape. I would want to preserve some modernity but that should be doable. That's one for the thinking cap.

Thanks Chessie 

Sent from my LG-H631 using Tapatalk


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## Chessie (Dec 14, 2016)

No problem and good luck!


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## Trick (Dec 15, 2016)

Well, I made some changes based on feedback and I like them. Still just a concept cover for sure but perhaps an improvement?







And I remembered another similar cover. I loved this book, love the cover and think it would have an audience similar to mine. I may take some cues from it in my next edit, specifically from the color scheme.


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## Trick (Dec 15, 2016)

Oh, and I'm curious if a transparent underlaid pattern (like this but not necessarily this) is a good idea or not?


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## Devor (Dec 15, 2016)

In some ways the new forest and cityscape looks better.  In others, it reminds me of a jaw with teeth.  The angle is too sharp, and the big black upper-right corner distracts the eye in kind of a bad way.  So I would see if you can try to take the new graphics and go back to the old shape.




Trick said:


> Oh, and I'm curious if a transparent underlaid pattern (like this but not necessarily this) is a good idea or not?



No offense, but that looks terrible.

Maybe you can get something like that to work, but you would need the light/color pattern plus a texture underneath it.  Getting those two components just right is the sort of thing that can make it awesome or you could fiddle with for months until you forget how bad it looks.


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## Trick (Dec 15, 2016)

Devor said:


> In some ways the new forest and cityscape looks better.  In others, it reminds me of a jaw with teeth.  The angle is too sharp, and the big black upper-right corner distracts the eye in kind of a bad way.  So I would see if you can try to take the new graphics and go back to the old shape.



I noticed the jaw with teeth thing and I honestly didn't mind the similarity. As a thumbnail it looks like that quite a bit but when larger, the image becomes more apparent. I'll have to think about that. 

The black corner being a distraction is not something I thought of, however, I had thought to put some mountains there as a transition. Perhaps I'll see how that looks. 






Devor said:


> No offense, but that looks terrible.
> 
> Maybe you can get something like that to work, but you would need the light/color pattern plus a texture underneath it.  Getting those two components just right is the sort of thing that can make it awesome or you could fiddle with for months until you forget how bad it looks.



No offense taken. The pattern is pretty bad and the texture idea is a good one. Not sure if I want to just stick with stark white/black or not. More thinking to do. 

Thanks!


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## Trick (Dec 16, 2016)

Perhaps this eliminates the jaw with teeth look and I also messed around with red and black for the top and bottom text and background.


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## Devor (Dec 16, 2016)

I would cut the top-left to recreate some of that white space from your original - also that part happens to look a little weird.

I don't like the versions with the red top and bottom.  Again, maybe some kind of texture and color combo would get it working really great, but I would suggest keeping to the black and white and splash of red.


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## Trick (Dec 17, 2016)

I like the corner cut idea. It does give it back some of the power the first version had. 

Still debating the red top and bottom. 








And here's also a quick textured version that I like better than the last attempt.


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## Devor (Dec 17, 2016)

Trick said:


> And here's also a quick textured version that I like better than the last attempt.



I'm not a graphic artist.  Everything I know about it was either self-taught or based on abstract marketing principles from class.  I only know a very small handful of tricks.

I don't know if you've seen this or not, but this is the artwork I made for the Trope Reboot series I'm doing on the blog.



Spoiler: Trope Reboot Art












I hired an artist to make the crystal ball - which I've heavily modified - but I made the background image myself.  I did it with the following technique:

 - I stole about a dozen pictures of clouds off of the internet and overlayed them them on top of each other as separate layers in photoshop.

 - I tinkered with the transparency of each image until I liked the final and could no longer recognize a single image.

^ That's my texture.

 - I put a color gradient over it - one of those complicated, multi-color gradients that I worked up.

 - I put the same color gradient over it _again_ at a different angle and softer transparency, to hide that "it's a color gradient" shape.

 - - -

The point that I'm making is that a good texture/color pattern takes a little more tweaking to work.  The more you try to do with your image, the harder it is to get right.

If it were me, I can see that you're on a track with the texture in the main image where there's a few things I would want to play with and it _could_ come out pretty well. I'm thinking maybe a touch of tannish yellow coming from the top right, maybe a couple filters over your texture to lighten it and soften it a bit.

But if you don't get it quite right it'll look horrible.  And it's going to mess with the top and bottom borders, which'll mean you have to find a similarly complicated solution for that.

You get to the point where, even if it kind of works, and you send it to a graphic artist, that person may have no idea what you were trying to do and screw it up.

Black and white is easy.  It's striking.  It's reasonably solid.  I can't swear it's the best solution, but it's the one I recommend.


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## Foah (Dec 18, 2016)

I just felt like chiming in with a piece of advice, which I pressume is welcome!

I would suggest revising the typography a bit. Not necessarily the typeface, but the negative space and margins, or padding. It feels cramped, and while there are different schools on how to handle your typoegraphy to reach a certain goal, I feel like this is a bit off any way you look at it.

For a title, or a set body of text, to work in a tight and blocky environment like your header and bottom, they really need to utilize a typeface that was designed to be used that way. A typeface can be less rounded, more constricted, and have a more visual similarity to squared shapes to--or it can be an opposite yet complimentary.

If you're set on the typeface you have, I would encourage you to play around with margins and space. The more "correct" it feels when you look at it (spacing and padding when it comes to fonts are WAY MORE down to what's optically and aesthetically pleasing rather than mathematically correct), the better right?


EDIT:
If you find that playing with the text areas give some good results, I suggest you also read up a bit on kerning typography. I would guess that you're using a font called Ringbearer, or a font that's heavily influenced by LotR fonts. The thing about the free-to-use fonts and typefaces is that they aren't always fully fleshed out with how each character reacts with other characters. In short, all combinations of letters don't always look great. This *has alot to do with kerning*, which is the spacing between letters depending on the neighbouring letters.







I think I'll stop my rambling there, but good luck and hope my words were of some value!


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## Trick (Dec 19, 2016)

Devor said:


> The point that I'm making is that a good texture/color pattern takes a little more tweaking to work.  The more you try to do with your image, the harder it is to get right.
> 
> If it were me, I can see that you're on a track with the texture in the main image where there's a few things I would want to play with and it _could_ come out pretty well. I'm thinking maybe a touch of tannish yellow coming from the top right, maybe a couple filters over your texture to lighten it and soften it a bit.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree. I think what I was going for with the patterned one is similar to this cover, which should have a similar target market (I've shown it larger in an earlier post). It seems very simple to me. Perhaps that's my issue, the one I used is just complex enough to draw attention when it should really just provide a backdrop:







As for Black and White being striking and simple, I agree with that too. I think my concern was that at thumbnail size it will blend into the white background on most sites. I thought a thin frame might work like the below, but I don't really like it when it's full size.










Foah said:


> I just felt like chiming in with a piece of advice, which I pressume is welcome!
> 
> I would suggest revising the typography a bit. Not necessarily the typeface, but the negative space and margins, or padding. It feels cramped, and while there are different schools on how to handle your typoegraphy to reach a certain goal, I feel like this is a bit off any way you look at it.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Foah. Yes, all advice or opinions on the covers are very welcome. I am no graphic artist but drawing (by hand) and some graphic art have always been a part of my process and I find that designing covers is a learning experience that I really enjoy.

I see your point about the typography and, fortunately, no, I am not set on this font. I had it already and like it thematically only. If it doesn't work out for this cover, that's totally ok. 




Foah said:


> EDIT:
> If you find that playing with the text areas give some good results, I suggest you also read up a bit on kerning typography. I would guess that you're using a font called Ringbearer, or a font that's heavily influenced by LotR fonts. The thing about the free-to-use fonts and typefaces is that they aren't always fully fleshed out with how each character reacts with other characters. In short, all combinations of letters don't always look great. This *has alot to do with kerning*, which is the spacing between letters depending on the neighbouring letters.



It's actually two fonts by the same designer that I assume are the same but one is a messy-modified version of the other. I don't know what his influences are but LotR fonts could definitely be influential for him.

If I find a better one once I set out on that search, I will keep your thoughts in mind.


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## Trick (Dec 20, 2016)

I thought more about why I like this cover so much...







It's the interplay of the text with the image!


So, I went for a muted version of that to eliminate the boxy-frame style that simply didn't do justice to the image. Hopefully it's an improvement.


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## Devor (Dec 21, 2016)

"The Mark of a Thief" looks good there.

Darkling Sun . . . you're trying to do too much at this point.


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## Trick (Dec 21, 2016)

Devor said:


> "The Mark of a Thief" looks good there.



I like it too. I think that change is a keeper.



Devor said:


> Darkling Sun . . . you're trying to do too much at this point.



Yeah, I thought you might say that. I like the elimination of the boxiness but the dripping... something... adds busyness instead. I have a thought on that already though. Working on it.


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## Trick (Dec 21, 2016)

Here's another version. Not sure how I feel about the red "The Mark of a Thief" but with both main title and subtitle in white, it looked a little funny, so I went for it.


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## Devor (Dec 21, 2016)

The red looks okay on "Mark of a Thief," but there's some lighter gray behind "of" that I would black out for clarity purposes.

I don't like the dancing letters.  Just keep the title straight across.

I think the latest changes have made your byline problem worse.  Your image is now top-heavy and the byline looks quite squished.


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## Trick (Dec 21, 2016)

Devor said:


> The red looks okay on "Mark of a Thief," but there's some lighter gray behind "of" that I would black out for clarity purposes.
> 
> I don't like the dancing letters.  Just keep the title straight across.
> 
> I think the latest changes have made your byline problem worse.  Your image is now top-heavy and the byline looks quite squished.



I'll bite. I am partial to the dancing letters but I'm willing to admit they are odd.


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## Devor (Dec 21, 2016)

That looks so much better than where you began, Trick.  I've got kids messing with my attention right now, but I think you're getting very close to where it needs to be.


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## Trick (Dec 21, 2016)

Devor said:


> That looks so much better than where you began, Trick.  I've got kids messing with my attention right now, but I think you're getting very close to where it needs to be.



Thanks, I think so too. The commentary is very helpful and much appreciated. No worries! I appreciate you checking out today's versions


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## Devor (Dec 21, 2016)

Okay, nitpicky font time.  This might sound pedantic, but it makes a surprising difference.

Look at the back of the guy's foot, on the bottom left.  Imagine a straight line from the left-tip of that foot all the way up and down the page.  You should:

 - Line up the edge of the "D" in Darkling with the edge of that line on the guy's foot.

 - Space "Darkling Sun" to leave the same margin on the other side as well.

 - Line up the right edge of Mark of a Thief with the edge of the "N" in "Sun."  Also, lower it just a tad.

Finally, I suggest stretching the byline to the same margins as the other text.... if you can get it to look okay.  You may need to tinker with the kerning (the space between letters) and adjust the height a little to compensate.


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## Trick (Dec 21, 2016)

Devor said:


> Okay, nitpicky font time.  This might sound pedantic, but it makes a surprising difference.
> 
> Look at the back of the guy's foot, on the bottom left.  Imagine a straight line from the left-tip of that foot all the way up and down the page.  You should:
> 
> ...



That all sounds like a good idea but before I do it, is this change a good idea for the sake of balance?


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## Devor (Dec 21, 2016)

Trick said:


> That all sounds like a good idea but before I do it, is this change a good idea for the sake of balance?



That does look better.  I almost suggested it but thought stretching the byline might help the problem, and you should at least try it regardless.


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## Trick (Dec 21, 2016)

Devor said:


> That does look better.  I almost suggested it but thought stretching the byline might help the problem, and you should at least try it regardless.



Okay, here it is lined up. I think my byline is a little distracting and may need to finagle with the amount of black space above it and beneath the title to balance it out. If that doesn't work, I think it'll need to be smaller.


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## Devor (Dec 21, 2016)

Yeah, I think you could use a little more black / white space all around.  The byline especially, but the title too.

Otherwise I think that's about as far as we can get with this image, and it's pretty decent.


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## Trick (Dec 21, 2016)

I'll be tweaking it for sure. But looking at the earlier versions against this one, it's pretty well improved. 

Thanks, I really appreciate you weighing in and continuing to check back. 

Sent from my LG-H631 using Tapatalk


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## Foah (Dec 22, 2016)

I much prefer the typography as it is now compared to before. Big improvement. Not entirely sold on the "Mark of the Thief" part, but the rest looks good. Bold, easy to read, easy on the eyes, and still lets the artwork do "all" the talking really.


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## Ronald T. (Dec 23, 2016)

Trick said:


> As I work on improving my writing and finishing my WIP I am trying to teach myself about cover design. I've always dabbled (at best) in art and digital art but cover design is a different animal. My first attempt was a disaster. My second one went through several iterations and reached 'acceptable' I think. I like this new one a lot. It was inspired by a piece of art that I saw. Thoughts and opinions are welcome. This is not exactly going onto the book no matter what. It's just an experiment and a learning experience.



Great cover concept, Trick.  It conjurers a sense of alien invasion confronted by a samurai -- possibly a blind one.  Or possibly a man in a tuxedo -- also blind.  Good job, and very powerful.


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## bestellen (Jan 21, 2017)

I don't like the versions with the red top and bottom. Again, maybe some kind of texture and color combo would get it working really great, but I would suggest keeping to the black and white and splash of red.


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