# Fantasy army sizes



## Grimbold (Jan 16, 2013)

Having an issue finding about army sizes.

I have no idea how many men 10,000 would look like, or operate on a field, i have no idea how many giants i could get away with without it being just plain silly, or how many archers to horsemen or pikemen are needed. How long would it take them to destroy a wall? 

Anyone know some if kind of fantasy epic battle 101 exists? If not...should do


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## Telcontar (Jan 16, 2013)

Well, the sizes, compositions, and tactics of armies have varied ridiculously. So if you want to devise a really sensible setup for your fantasy world you have a lot of reading to do. 

Rather than simply try to answer your musings above, could you provide us with more exact questions that you'd like us to help ponder?


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## Grimbold (Jan 16, 2013)

Okay, the city is on the edge of the sea. However, all the trading is done outside the city, in a very large market which also houses the docks. this is because the market has seperate laws, sort of a "what happens in markettown stays in markettown."

During the invading force, they are going to attack in two waves. One wave of catapults from the boats firing upon the city walls to stop them sending men out and a small force in small boats to destroy and burn the market so they have ground to establish a base camp, and from there the rest of the army can sail in and start to do the whole deployment thing. 

What makes it awkward is the river. It runs through the city, and out into the ocean so the city straddles two halves of the river. Stone docks jut out into the ocean, so that only the smallest boats can get through to the city, which stops large transport ships sailing right in. the idea is that any army coming from the ocean has to be split into two, which weakens it. I'm not sure if i should split the army, or have them try to fell tree's to bridge the gap between the river, making it easier for them to move about.

The big thing is they are arriving by boat, which limits the number of men, but its fantasy so i can have big boats if i want to.

EDIT: Also there is the whole siege aspect...like, i just wrote and planned the "oh, i see sails on the horizon, bad guys coming." And i cant work out the pacing until the battle...they WILL be caught unawares, but i'm not sure how long to wait untill they start attacking, to long and people would be "they had ages, why arnt they more prepared?" but to short would feel rushed


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## Telcontar (Jan 16, 2013)

Well, to start with I wouldn't worry about the naval transport thing. In the Punic Wars both Rome and Carthage transported huge armies (tens of thousands) by sea, and that was over two thousand years ago with relatively primitive ships. I'll think on the rest and get back to you.


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## Grimbold (Jan 16, 2013)

I think its one of those things were if i just draw it i'll get it...but, i'm a stickler for perfect planning


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## Saigonnus (Jan 16, 2013)

Perhaps you could consider; assuming the city is fairly open to visitors, to have a number of scouts and spies both enter the city days or weeks before the invasion force is set to arrive; which was really standard procedure throughout history. The scouts can leave just before the fleet is set to arrive, giving the troop disposition (how many guarding each wall, what sort of defensive heavy weapons they have, the total estimate of troops in the city and possible weaknesses to exploit). The spies would stay in the city and try to sabotage portcullises, gates or defensive weaponry or even poison food or commit arson to confuse those within the city (or at the least keep some of the defenders occupied). 

If the city allows visitors to carry weapons (even if they charge a tax) you could send in a small force of elite troops piecemeal (two or three at a time over days), they will probably be relatively small in number overall, but could attack from behind the scenes at a pivotal moment to overwhelm a gate, granting access to the invading army, even on the first day. Perhaps they could also explain how the city gets taken by surprise; maybe they assassinate the guards on single wall, taking their place so no warning is issued until the army is position. It would be tricky, but credible in the scheme of things. 

Another option would be a great distraction near to the wall overlooking the harbor, but it would have to be severe enough that the guards would be forced to leave their positions for a period of time. 

Maybe the spies could poison the wells nearest to the walls, giving dysentery to the guards who are supposed to guard the wall, making them poorly perform their job, especially having to run to the latrines often. 

Also, don't forget to take things like weather into account; while normally an army wouldn't attack during the rain or fog, using it to hide troop moments was very common. You could easily put the army ashore a day's march from the city (removing the need to eliminate guards or "hiding" the sailing fleet), break it into the forces you need to assault each half of the city and moving under cover of darkness and rain or fog, could theoretically get to the city with a fair chance of nondiscovery. You'd likely have to make sure to secure the landing area with your troops (maybe disguised as fishermen or gypsies etc...) until the landing is finished, but that could be done a couple days before without really arousing the suspicion of the locals.

Keep in mind also that locals tend to act as messengers, if even one local spots the advancing army and races ahead to tell, the element of surprise is lost. Could be a goot plot twist really, a wild chase in the dark with horsemen chasing a villager who is running to the city to raise the alarm; not a bad way to add drama and suspense to a story.


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## Grimbold (Jan 16, 2013)

^^ Givern me alot to think about...I had gotten into the rut of a siege, i hardly thought about anything else...

The army was going to loose because reinforcements are going to turn up last minute and attack their flank, and as they are shifting all the pikemen and stuff to the rear, the main army was going to charge out of the city and so the bad guys would essentially have two rears, both of weak troops/archers.

If i did the whole "they take a gate" thing, it would help even more, as the advancing army would be led into a sort of funnel they had to get through first


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## Saigonnus (Jan 16, 2013)

Grimbold said:


> The army was going to loose because reinforcements are going to turn up last minute and attack their flank, and as they are shifting all the pikemen and stuff to the rear, the main army was going to charge out of the city and so the bad guys would essentially have two rears, both of weak troops/archers.
> 
> If i did the whole "they take a gate" thing, it would help even more, as the advancing army would be led into a sort of funnel they had to get through first



So the attacking army is going to lose, that means you could have the locals that spot them send off pigeons (assuming you use them for communication) and warn the cities close by (but not the "target" city), maybe where the reinforcements come from. I think if you set up a timeline for the sequence of events it might help get you through the rut; a to b to c etc.

a. spies etc. enter the city
b. secure landing area.
c. land and assemble army
d. army marches
e. a local spots army, sends off two pigeons; one to CITY A (the target) and CITY B (nearby).
f. scouts spot and kill pigeon heading for CITY A (preserving the element of surprise)
etc...


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## saellys (Jan 17, 2013)

When it comes to size in general, here's a really interesting and useful article, especially if you know the specifics of where your attackers originated: The Numberless Hordes: Keeping Your Fantasy Armies a Little Less Fantastic. It inspired the _Camlann_ writing team (which includes me) to shrink our protagonists' army from 25,000 to 2,500 (the same happened to the antagonists' forces as well). That's a lot easier to visualize, and actually makes the stakes feel higher.


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## camradio (Jan 17, 2013)

saellys said:


> When it comes to size in general, here's a really interesting and useful article, especially if you know the specifics of where your attackers originated: The Numberless Hordes: Keeping Your Fantasy Armies a Little Less Fantastic. It inspired the _Camlann_ writing team (which includes me) to shrink our protagonists' army from 25,000 to 2,500 (the same happened to the antagonists' forces as well). That's a lot easier to visualize, and actually makes the stakes feel higher.


Interesting article, another thing to consider would be the quality of the army.
You could realistically have an army of 10,000 militia. They would have little training, little if any armour and their weapons would mostly be spears, clubs or axes due to the fact they were cheap and/tools. A common person picks up a stick and fights.

An army of 10,000 mounted knights would be very unrealistic. The amount of steel needed for the suits of armour and swords, the cost of the years of training not to mention the upkeep of the horses.


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## Telcontar (Jan 17, 2013)

That's a great article! I've long gone with the basic rule of thumb: "you can raise about 5% of the population under ideal conditions." My rule overshoots his figures by quite a bit, but then it is just a starting point.


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## Hate (Jan 19, 2013)

Rome total war and others could give you an idea how 10000 man look like.


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## camradio (Jan 21, 2013)

Hate said:


> Rome total war and others could give you an idea how 10000 man look like.



Wicked game cant wait until Rome Total War 2 comes out


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## Sea of Stars (Feb 21, 2013)

The army size depends a lot on the total population to draw from, obviously, the more people the larger the army can be.  What sort of culture is fielding the army is also a consideration, an Italian city-state fielded a much different army from an English baron, for example.


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## Kahle (Feb 27, 2013)

On army composition-This depends mainly on the nation that has raised the army. Romans focused on heavy infantry with auxiliary cavalry and mercenary archers. English and French armies focused on heavy cavalry as a result of the fighting class, and used auxiliary pikemen, infantry, and archers. In both cases the infantry was the largest body in the army, as they were the most versatile: climb ladders, build forts, use a battering ram, direct engagements, etc. The cavalry and archers varied. European knights required years of training and were limited to the nobility, while the Roman cavalry were usually recruited from provinces and nations that favored horses. Archers did not require as much training or armor, but all archers/crossbowmen had to be guarded by the infantry and cavalry; the number of archers was usually kept small, and hopefully the casualties were smaller as they were not meant for direct combat.

On dividing the armies-The city you described seems well guarded by its wall and piers, but the land around it sounds very exposed. Were the army to divide, they would have to keep watch in every direction-up river, the plains, and the sea-the sea and river can bring reinforcements much faster and with less notice. Obviously a risky decision. If the army were to effectively  besiege the city, they would need to cover every entrance, necessitating both a division and a substantial number of troops. Sometimes, cities have been save purely because the attacking force was not strong enough to effectively cut off the city. As to how long it would take down a wall-there are two ways to destroy a wall with siege machines: hammering on it with trebuchets (as was done at Jerusalem in 1187), or undermining it. Catapults usually could not bring down a solidly built stone wall, whereas a trebuchet had the power and munition mass to do this. Undermining involved digging a trench under the foundations of the wall and collapsing it (this may not be a viable option given how close your city is to the sea, the engineers would drown in groundwater before they got deep enough-but might work for your plot). Bringing down a wall was also a last resort. Usually to preserve the defenses of the city and time, the attackers would attempt to scale the wall (ladders or towers) and gain control of the gatehouse. This would also provide the defenders with a funnel.

On population/army size-It depends on how key this city is. These other posts have give great advice on the size of a nations full army in times of need, but how much of that force is attacking the city? Are there other parts of the army moving on other cities, or is this the only objective? For the defenders, I am guessing they are not a city-state. If they are part of a larger nation, then you can have the reinforcements coming from not just a city's population, but possibly a larger garrison of the parent nation.


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## Filk (Feb 28, 2013)

In terms of breaking down the walls, this might be of use: Sapping - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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