# GoT Season 4 [NO SPOILERS, PLEASE]



## Legendary Sidekick

Those who want to discuss the show, but do NOT know what's coming in the next episodes, feel free to discuss here. Please keep this thread spoiler-free, or tag spoilers if in doubt. Theories from those who haven't read ahead of the show are welcome.


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## SeverinR

I am on book 2, so I don't know anything about this season or next.

The Hound and Arya will have to part ways for my prediction to come true. For Arya to join the Faceless.
I do not believe Arya has anything of royalty in her future.



> Arya "Can I be lord of a holdfast?"
> Ned "You will marry a high lord and rule his castle, and your sons shall be knights and princes and lords."
> Arya "No... that's not me."



I have a theory that the future rulers will ride the three dragons,
1.Dany, 2. Snow, 3. I don't know but I hope Tyrion is there with wine in his belly.

For the above to come true:
Jeofry, Cersei (*Possibly Tyrion and Jamie) would be killed by someone other then Dany and Snow. Tyrion isn't proud of his family but he would not party voluntarily with those that killed them either. Except possibly if Sansa did it or had it done.

I believe the three will lead the world to victory over the Winter critters not the human wars.

*I can see Tyron, Tyrion and Jamie surviving, Tyrion would be the greatest challenge since he is the most powerful leader of the armies, but that could be a way to end the war, have a great leader sign a pact to be loyal to the new leader. (Not sure what the new leader would be...appointed king or voted in leader. There is no king north of the wall.)

I think it would be great if Arya and Dany could meet and become friends. Dany already has befriended assasins.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Is the second Tyrion meant to be Tywin?


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## SeverinR

One was. 
I guess rumors are not spoilers.
I do think Snow will have the potential to be the leader by actions in the war, not only based on rumors of his parentage. But if true it would make it all the more possible.
As I have only read to middle book 2, I have no spoilers. (except for those that haven't watched the series up to beginning season 4.)


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## Legendary Sidekick

Past seasons and shows that aired are fair game. I enjoyed the show without knowing what would happen, and now I'll enjoy the show knowing what will happen (unless I take too long to finish book #5--the other books only took a couple week, but I have a lot going on lately).

I'm looking forward to what will be posted in this thread as the season goes on, in addition to reactions from my wife.


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## A. E. Lowan

My question is, why would anyone accept Jon Snow as King, regardless of his parentage?  By this point he's already an oath breaker, and if he were to ascend to the Iron Throne, or any throne, he would be in blatant, public violation of his oaths to The Night's Watch.  He might become a war leader, but if he rises above that, GRRM and the television writers are going to have do some fancy writing to explain it.


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## T.Allen.Smith

A. E. Lowan said:


> My question is, why would anyone accept Jon Snow as King, regardless of his parentage?  By this point he's already an oath breaker, and if he were to ascend to the Iron Throne, or any throne, he would be in blatant, public violation of his oaths to The Night's Watch.  He might become a war leader, but if he rises above that, GRRM and the television writers are going to have do some fancy writing to explain it.



Jon would be fulfilling a greater duty to the realm as a king, especially if for some reason he is reluctant to accept coronation.


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## A. E. Lowan

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Jon would be fulfilling a greater duty to the realm as a king, especially if for some reason he is reluctant to accept coronation.



I'm just not sure how far that flies.  Look how much Jaime is dragged through the mud for breaking his vows as a King's Guard.  He killed his King.  The King was insane, burned Ned Stark's sister to death (along with countless others), and was deposed by Robert Baratheon.  And still Jaime is known as King Slayer, a man without honor, because he is an oath breaker.  These guys take oaths very seriously, as we are shown time and time again.


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## T.Allen.Smith

A. E. Lowan said:


> I'm just not sure how far that flies.  Look how much Jaime is dragged through the mud for breaking his vows as a King's Guard.  He killed his King.  The King was insane, burned Ned Stark's sister to death (along with countless others), and was deposed by Robert Baratheon.  And still Jaime is known as King Slayer, a man without honor, because he is an oath breaker.  These guys take oaths very seriously, as we are shown time and time again.


True, it all really depends on how it is set up. Books six and seven may well turn everything concerning this notion of honor on its head when Westeros falls into desperation.

Winter is coming, after all.


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## SeverinR

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Jon would be fulfilling a greater duty to the realm as a king, especially if for some reason he is reluctant to accept coronation.


He would be the ultimate leader of the Night's watch.



A. E. Lowan said:


> I'm just not sure how far that flies.  Look how much Jaime is dragged through the mud for breaking his vows as a King's Guard.  He killed his King.  The King was insane, burned Ned Stark's sister to death (along with countless others), and was deposed by Robert Baratheon.  And still Jaime is known as King Slayer, a man without honor, because he is an oath breaker.  These guys take oaths very seriously, as we are shown time and time again.


But Jaime said he never told anyone why he slayed the king, when he told Bre.

The explanation would matter to honorable men.


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## A. E. Lowan

SeverinR said:


> But Jaime said he never told anyone why he slayed the king, when he told Bre.
> 
> The explanation would matter to honorable men.



What I described is what everyone knows about what happened.  Everyone knew the King was insane.  Everyone knew he was burning people.  Everyone knew he fell on the wrong side of history.  And still Jaime is known as a man without honor.  Jaime didn't explain himself because he didn't think it would matter, even to Ned Stark who was in his mind the most honorable of men.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Thoughts on last night's episode? Having read the book, I can say I was into really into a certain scene because of a certain dialogue exchange that was true to the book, word for word.



(Note: You can specify what actually happens in the show. Once the episode has aired, anything you say about it is not a spoiler as far as I'm concerned. By now, GoT fans should know not to click anything related to the show if they haven't seen the latest episode.)


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## SeverinR

Just watched Joffrey's waterloo.
Robbery! So many ways to die and he is poisoned.

Tyrion blamed and Sansa disappears, making it look as if they were in it together.

I did not see the whole show, but I am pretty sure Tyrion did not do it, and Sansa couldn't be involved without giving it away.  To fearful of her own shadow to plot against the king.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Interesting take... when I read it, the scene was quite satisfying. I'm not sure if the dwarf jousting was done differently in the book or exactly as televised, but overall, the scene was faithful to the book and more or less as I pictured it. My wife and I both came up with the same list of suspects. Both the book and the show have the same people close enough to the source of the poison, and that itself is in question.

My wife laughed at the dead dove in the pie. You're seeing Joff as a cocky jerk, worse than he's ever been, then... _Koff! Koff! Koff!_ He dies in pain and fear. Good on the actor for portraying Joff so well that I wanted to see the boy king die.

_Widow's Wail..._ It didn't occur to me at first, but what an ironic name for his sword!


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## Ankari

Legendary, you'll have to remind me if GRRM tells us who suggested the name. I have a suspicion it was the Tyrell family. Margaery is now queen, after all. In fact, I'm surprised no one suspects her. She fed Joeffrey the pie. And Joeffrey makes the comment on how dry the pie is.


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## Legendary Sidekick

One of my coworkers (who has NOT read the books) suspects Margaery. I don't remember if GRRM mentioned that... I'm curious now. I'll have to reread that scene, though I'm under a bit of self-inflicted pressure to finish book #5 before the show gets ahead of me with "Reek's" story.


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## SeverinR

I think the plot would be too simple for Margaery to be the assasin.  She knows how to play the game, poisoning would get her hands dirty and not leave her much room to play.

The much deeper plot would be the Grandmother poisoned the king. If she gets away with it, no harm, no foul. If she is caught she simply plays the confused old lady while ensuring the doubt is never cast on Margaery. She makes the ultimate sacrifice for her family.  Even more perfect, the event unfolded that family (Tyrion) served Jeoffrey the wine before he died. The infighting obscures the plot even more. Margaery might have known about it or she might not. Much easier to act suprised when you aren't aware of what is happening.

While Cersi screams of her brothers guilt, onlookers will not be looking to other possible killers.

Of course, third parties could poison the food. The pie was prepared by cooks and taken to the feast. So at any point the food could be poisoned. The wine also could be spiked at anytime.

After Joffrey falls:
*Sansa is approached and told she must leave quickly. (hints that she didn't know what was going on.)
*Tyrion was examiniing the cup, (hints that he didn't know or was acting like he didn't know)
*Margaery moves to her Grandmother's side, away from her fighting new inlaws.

I don't believe any Lannister would have poisoned Joffrey.  Tywin could control the king. Jaime was too distracted. Cersei wouldn't kill her own child, "even Joffrey."
I don't believe the players on the small counsel would do it. They too, know and enjoy playing the game. Poison the king is an "all in" proposition, you either win or die. Their game is about small victories not an end run. How close they dance to the throne without getting cut by the blades, they are secretive about their lust for the throne.


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## Legendary Sidekick

I suspected the grandmother, but the show made me rethink my suspicion. Ser Dontos removes Sansa at a very interesting time. When reading from Tyrion's POV, I had assumed Sansa just ran off. (Could be bad memory, but I think Tyrion didn't see Sanda leave.)

That said, Ser Dontos wasn't necessarily in on the poisoning. He may have figured that with all the trouble that would ensue, if he intends to save Sansa, the attack on the king forced him to act "now or never."

While I'm being careful not to give away what hasn't been aired on the show, I can honestly say my suspect list has neither grown nor changed since I read this scene last summer. Who poisoned the boy king? GRRM knows.


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## T.Allen.Smith

In my memory, the books were very clear on who actually poisoned Joffrey. I can't say more here because of the spoilers but there were certainly revelations if you've read all five books.


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## SeverinR

So I hear Jaimee raped Cersei. Which was not in the book.  I hear in the book Jaime just returned after Joffrey dies.
So the sex was consential. But in the show, she is grieving and he forces her.

GRRM takes no credit, nor makes no excuses for the new twist. Since it wasn't his writing.
But the controversy is they say it was and wasn't rape. That she didn't want it at first then she "changed her mind."

Was the scene so important to have Jaime force his sister, rather then re-unite the incestial couple later?
I think this changes Jaime's character back from a misunderstood semi-good guy back to an evil character that people can't support.

In cowboy terms, when he explained the "kingslayer" incident, he went from a black hat to a white hat (Ok,maybe off white or gray). But this action puts him back into a black hat again. Kingslayer incestial  rapist.


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## Gryphos

I think that the rape makes Jaime a much more complicated character and I actually rather like it. At the beginning of the series you hate jaime for being the piece of shit that pushed a child from a  tower. Then, as the series goes on, you begin to like him as he starts to redeem himself. You understand his motives and can even begin to forgive him. Now he goes ahead and rapes his sister and suddenly he's not the misunderstood antihero he was before. Now the viewers are forced into a tricky situation where they're not sure whether they can actually say they "like" Jaime. This isn't a bad thing. It makes him much more interesting than he would have been had he been simply a misunderstood good guy.


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## Nihal

This is not the first problematic sex scene they changed to rape in the TV series. I'm under the impression that when the directors, writers or whoever is responsible for these changes are faced with disturbing sex scenes the only way they know to deal with them is turning it into assault. That's poor writing.

I'm not as thrilled with the series anymore, for they effectively impoverished what would be a conflicting situation otherwise. Downright wrong for many, yes, but it's not the point of the change for it's still wrong now, in fact it became worse.

They took agency from Cersei; the way she acted in the books said a lot of her character. They changed the dynamic of their relationship. How can she trust Jaime–the same Jaime who saved Brienne from similar fate, the same Jaime who wanted to murder Robert for his drunk advances on Cersei–, how can she trust now he's done the same thing? I mean, _who_ is Jaime now they changed his core?

But for me the worst of it all is that they don't acknowledge that what they created was an assault scene.

This kind of change does no good for the series, it doesn't help the character development for it's used as a mere  narrative device with no further ramifications. It's like if the aggressors name called the mothers of the victims and that's it, it was just a _slight_. When Dany was sold it impacted her so deeply she's freeing slaves now! But that level of violence and degradation? Nah.


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## Legendary Sidekick

The scene didn't bother me as much, but for the wrong reasons. When my wife asked what's going on, I said, I don't know. I don't remember that in the book.

In other words, this is like the Red Wedding where a pregnant woman was stabbed to death in the womb and Caitlyn killed a fifteen-year-old girl. In the book, Robb's wife was not pregnant and not at the wedding, and Caitlyn killed a fool (who was still a sympathetic character).

I also could do without the Red Viper being bisexual. He has his paramour. I don't know why she's with other women and he's with a guy.

Basically, if the writers would just follow the book, the show would be better off. Almost every time they make a change, it cheapens the show for me. It hasn't killed the show for me, but I'd like to watch the episodes without telling my wife that the show did it wrong… again.

And those are good points, Nihal. That Jaime is so much against rape makes this scene look like what it is: shock value—which was really not needed in a scene where a brother and sister were having consensual sex in a sept while their dead son was still warm. (I don't recall them being close to the body, but that could be my bad memory or misinterpretation.)


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## Gryphos

> but I'd like to watch the episodes without telling my wife that the show did it wrong… again.



The show didn't really do it _wrong_, though, did it? It did it _differently_.

Now I haven't read any of ASoIaF, but from what I've heard the show has changed from the book, I really don't care and often think they made the right move. Making Robb's wife pregnant? that just adds a little more emotion to her death. Not exactly necessary but not a bad change at all. Her being at the wedding? Wouldn't not having her there kinda lessen the impact of the wedding. Oberyn being bisexual? Why not? It fits with him being the promiscuous guy he is. Jaime's raping Cersei? I don't know. As I said, it certainly makes Jaime a bit difficult to understand, but perhaps it will lead to interesting situations later. If it doesn't have any ramifications later and isn't even touched upon, then I will agree it was rather silly.

The creators of the show do not have any obligation to follow the books to the letter. In the opening credits it says "based on the series by George R R Martin". 'Based on' is key. If the show writers want to tweak the story to make it better for the screen, then they go ahead and do it.


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## Legendary Sidekick

There are some differences that don't bother me, like Arya killing Polliver with Needle in the same manner as when he killed the boy with the same sword. That was a change I thought of as "different" and "better for the screen." Changing the order of events (Jaime and Brienne did not attend Joff's wedding) is forgivable, as the actors you hired need to have something to do. The scenes changed to deliver additional shock value bother me.

My problem is that the book has plenty of shock and awe as it is. When I saw the Red Wedding, I hadn't started on the books, so I thought, wow… that's harsh. Seeing a pregnant women stabbed in the womb was upsetting, but it didn't bother me until I found that it was different in the book. Then I thought, well that's stupid. Robb's death is what makes that scene so shocking.



Spoiler: one memorable tragedy from THE REAL Red Wedding



Trust me… the wedding was plenty tragic in the book. One memorable death of a minor character: Dacey Mormont was a woman warrior who wanted to dance with one of the men in on the attack plan, she was refused the dance moments before her brutal murder.



Legally, the writers of the show can do this. It's a common practice. (_Jurassic Park_ is probably the worst offender, going so far as to change the life/death fates of major characters.) It's also an annoying practice. No one wants to read a story then see a story and end up with two different stories. Yes, it's fiction, but when the characters are believable enough, changing their behaviors and fates breaks immersion. Instead of saying, "Wow! Those Lannister twins have this love-hate thing…" I was shrugging it off like, "WTF? That didn't happen."


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## Gryphos

The way I see it, what's the point of adapting a story if you don't, well... adapt it? If a person wants a story just like the book, there's always the book to read.


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## Feo Takahari

It's worth noting that the director said it stopped being rape because Cersei wanted it in the end. (He called it rape in a separate interview, but that wasn't the one that exploded all over the blogosphere.)

(As a general rule, if you have to tell people it wasn't rape, it was rape. See also: Devin Grayson. Just Devin freaking Grayson.)


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## teacup

> The show didn't really do it _wrong, though, did it? It did it differently._


I agree with this completely. Whether you like it or not doesn't make a show differing from the source material wrong, it makes it different.

Though I found the rape thing strange (and even if Cersei decided she wanted it in the end, Jaime is still forcing himself on her while she says no) because it seemed out of character for Jaime. Yes, he pushed Bran out the window and stuff, but rape just didn't seem in his character, especially after saving Brienne from it. It does make him harder to understand, yes, but it just doesn't seem like him. I think that if they wanted to make him harder to understand/side with, they should have gone with another way of doing it. 
Also it certainly didn't need more shock value, as others have said.


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## Legendary Sidekick

My opinion or it being different doesn't make it wrong. You pointed out the part that makes it wrong:


> rape just didn't seem in his character, especially after saving Brienne from it.



The problem with deviating from the source material is that the writers of the show apparently don't know Martin's characters as well as the average reader, or they lose sight of what's in-character because they're too caught up in making a scene more shocking. I'd like to think the intent is to give fans of the book some surprises, but I can't imagine there are any fans who want surprises like Robb's an idiot, Jaime's a rapist, or…


Spoiler: something that happened in season 2 that shouldn't have



…Brienne's an experienced killer.


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## monyo

I had thought that the Jaime-Cersei rape thing was to send Jaime back to being more of a bad guy. He'd become almost likeable after season 3. Similar to that brief moment when you thought Joffrey was about to learn humility shortly before his death, then seconds later... nope. Plus showing that it didn't take long after getting back to safety and his family that he reverted back to old Jaime in a lot of ways. Also to make Cersei more sympathetic, if that's even possible. Son dies in her arms effectively because of how she raised him, then basically gets raped on his corpse moments later - it kind of fits with her resentment of being a woman and being trapped in a loveless, abusive marriage that an ambitious, controlling father forced her into. I thought it was just to continue muddying the moral waters, making the characters both understandable and villainous at the same time.

Saving Brienne from rape could have been taken as his chance to worm his way up to his captors, as he seemed to be trying to do at the time, not necessarily because he cared one way or the other. And they did go out of their way to make it clear that Cersei had been withholding sex from him since he got back, unlike in the books where they get down to it as soon as he returns. Overall I couldn't complain about those changes.


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## SeverinR

This would apply more to season 3-red wedding, or to all the "late" Starkes, but thought this little song could be song about Rob Starke.
Wolf Song - YouTube


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## SeverinR

Watched a few scenes from various episodes on youtube.

Arya and the Hound are such a great love/hate couple.  I love the whole "Ayra's death list" ineraction and the sword dancing interaction.
Even as they are forced to stay together, Arya is never long to remind the Hound she wants to kill him.

I liked the lesson punctuated with Arya getting slapped to the ground, that shows Arya she must know the limits of her weapon, needle.  Needle would probably penetrate ringmaille or chain maille, but not scale or coat of plates.  In a real fight she would be dead.  

I also liked when Arya tells the farmer that the Hound is her dad. Same episode the hound explains why taking things is not stealing, dead people don't need silver(or a wagon), not stealing when the person won't need it much longer.  Seriously twisted thinking to make stealing ok...that someone will be dead someday, means its ok to take it today.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Disney bought the rights, so expect less nudity next season, and more focus on the heart-warming scenes.








For real, check out this artist's *DA page*. There are three more GOT Disney-style pics!


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## SeverinR

Hodor!
Game of Thrones-disney-fied:
Disney?  
Everythings better with a little grape juice in the belly?
I want to die with grape juice in my belly and a puppy on my lap?

Tyrion can't be Tyrion with Disney.

Arya?
"Most girls...aren't nice"
the list she says before sleeping; is the Santa's naughty list?

Varys was sick when he was little and looks alittle different then others.
[[speaking of Varys, I swear I saw a person that looked like him at a sports club on friday. I wanted so much to ask him if he knew where "Little Finger" was.]]]

Little finger owns several laundry services, but the women can't afford much clothing of their own and its hot doing laundry.

Red wedding: alot of people in the weddings got owies when the mean old man betrayed them.

purple wedding; the bad boy king choked on his grape juice and someone might have poked him when he was drinking.

The regent queen kissed her brother and doesn't want others to know.

Disney would change Game of Thrones drastically.


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## SeverinR

Game of thrones card deck:

Favorite characters are Aces: Tyrion, Arya, also Gendry and Olena are aces. Dany is a wildcard.
Kings: Joffrey, Robb, Stanis, Renly
Queens: Cersi, Sansa, Margaery, Malisandre, 
Jacks: John, Jaime(one hand jack),  Devos, Loras,


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## Legendary Sidekick

SeverinR said:


> I want to die with grape juice in my belly and a puppy on my lap








He's pointing to the puppy. It's on its way to his lap.


Anyway, the artist has six of these now!

Snow & Ghost, Tyrion, Bran & Hodor, Cersei, The White Walker, and Arya & The Hound.


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## ThinkerX

> Game of Thrones-disney-fied:
> Disney?
> Everythings better with a little grape juice in the belly?
> I want to die with grape juice in my belly and a puppy on my lap?
> 
> Tyrion can't be Tyrion with Disney.
> 
> Arya?
> "Most girls...aren't nice"
> the list she says before sleeping; is the Santa's naughty list?
> 
> Varys was sick when he was little and looks alittle different then others.
> [[speaking of Varys, I swear I saw a person that looked like him at a sports club on friday. I wanted so much to ask him if he knew where "Little Finger" was.]]]
> 
> Little finger owns several laundry services, but the women can't afford much clothing of their own and its hot doing laundry.
> 
> Red wedding: alot of people in the weddings got owies when the mean old man betrayed them.
> 
> purple wedding; the bad boy king choked on his grape juice and someone might have poked him when he was drinking.
> 
> The regent queen kissed her brother and doesn't want others to know.
> 
> Disney would change Game of Thrones drastically.



Haven't watched Disney animations in ages...but from what I recollect, Disney characters do die occasionally, and there are the odd scenes that hint at lewdness in a comic sort of way.  So...if done right, the core of the tale could be conveyed.

The language could be cleaned up without loosing too much.

The toughies would be the relationship between Jamie and Cersie, and the red wedding.

I seem to remember a couple of animated drunks in Disney animations, so Tyrion could work, minus the naked chicks.

Jon is pretty straightforward.    

No need to go into much detail with Varys and Littlefinger.


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## kayd_mon

Varys and Littlfinger don't need detail? Do you mean they are disposable? I don't think that would work.


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## ThinkerX

Varys is sneaky.  His castration is not something that needs to be advertised - merely his intellect and deviousness.

And the naked ladies could probably be dropped from Littlefingers role, or played way down with lewd hints.


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## Legendary Sidekick

I think Littlefinger's whores would do a dance number (fully clothed).

You think I'm kidding, but see the Make Way For Prince Ali song in _Aladdin._ There were whores! Parents tell children they're belly dancers, but… it's bullish*t. Because they're whores.







EDIT - I added photographic evidence. And look at the Genie's torso in the background. I'd say Robin Williams is more convincing as a woman here than he was in _Tootsie._


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## T.Allen.Smith

ThinkerX said:


> Varys is sneaky.  His castration is not something that needs to be advertised - merely his intellect and deviousness.


His castration plays a big role in why he acts as he does. It was hinted at & has nothing to do with the normal absence of sexual desire.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Spoiler: those who haven't seen the episode; if you've seen it, this spoils nothing



*Red Viper vs. The Mountain*

I hated to see how that battle went, and loved it at the same time!


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## SM-Dreamer

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Spoiler: those who haven't seen the episode; if you've seen it, this spoils nothing
> 
> 
> 
> *Red Viper vs. The Mountain*
> 
> I hated to see how that battle went, and loved it at the same time!





Spoiler: if you haven't watched yet



While watching, my wife asked why he wasn't fighting the Mountain with a sword. I had to pause the show to stare at her.


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## monyo

Spoiler: if everyone else is using them...



^Exact same sentiment. One of my favorite parts of the books, and one of my favorite characters. It's like getting wounded all over again.

It works on another level, too. I did martial arts for a long time, probably a half dozen styles over the same number of years. Skill definitely beats even extreme differences of size and strength, but it takes a lot of skill to make up for a much smaller size and strength disadvantage. All you have to do is mess up for a second and that's the end of it. I can think of exceptions to that rule, too, but it brings a level of realism and meaning to the scene that I kind of appreciate.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Spoiler: those who STILL haven't watched episode 8 yet



I remember taking karate when I was around 20. There were some classmates who could beat me with skill, but one guy decided to skillfully grab my leg. Without doing anything dangerous, I demonstrated my advantage in grappling by rolling back, kicking my leg upward, then using my arms to lift him just before his head hit the floor.

The sensei might have been very PO'd at me, but he did notice my counter was in control and... well, it worked.

Whether strength or skill, one successful grapple can end a fight. I'm not that big or that skillful, so I'd have my share of opponents whose grips I'd prefer to avoid completely.


I loved Tyrion's expression when the Viper wouldn't stop pestering the wounded Mountain. That was probably my expression when I read that scene. Just kill him, dammit!

My poor wife. She wanted me to tell her the winner up-front, but I refused to. I think of all the one-season characters, Oberon is my favorite. (I'll understand if most say he's second to Ned Stark.)


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## SM-Dreamer

Spoiler: Just in case :P



I did really enjoy watching Oberyn throughout the season. But as soon as he started fighting the Mountain, well. As I reminded my wife, the Mountain has that name for a REASON, and he's using a bloody 2 hander with 1 hand! I don't care how skilled you are, that is someone I want to be within reach of! As has been mentioned, one grip, one misstep...

And he did misstep, sadly. He got arrogant. He decided that Oh, I have the Mountain down, I don't have to worry about him.

I had trouble watching because every video game monster-sense was screaming "get back, get back, make sure he's dead!!!"


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## Gryphos

I'm not gonna lie, I'm kinda mad. Not like a Red Wedding kind of "Gosh darnit that sucks", more I'm physically angry with GRRM. Why on earth did Oberyn have to die? What purpose did it serve for the story? He was a great character with so much potential but nope, headsplosion. And with no reason as far as I can see.


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## monyo

Spoiler: ep. 8



One minor thing I might point out, is that while one successful grapple can definitely end a fight, I think grappling could have easily gone in Oberyn's favor. The style I did the longest and loved the most was brazilian jiujitsu, and that's basically 90% ground grappling. One of the most memorable moments was getting tapped out about 30 times in a 5 minute match by a guy who was about half my size, and was only using one arm because the other one was broken. I'd just started and he'd been doing it for years. That kind of thing wasn't an unusual occurrence.

The trick with fighting someone like the Mountain is not to stay in that dangerous range where they can do the most damage (in this case, the radius where he can swing his sword). Oberyn does it by using a spear and staying outside, but he could have just as easily closed the distance after the Mountain missed a swing, gotten a takedown and finished him that way. Even after falling down, some good ground defense could have saved him - if nothing else the Mountain was probably giving him an armbar opportunity when he held him up by the throat to punch his teeth out. See for instance how Genki Sudo beat Butterbean (short version, full fight), the famous Noguiera vs. Bob Sapp fight (highlights). Though grappling in armor might change the game a bit - Butterbean and Sapp weren't punching with armor plated knuckles - and BJJ or Judo in Westeros probably wouldn't really fit with the whole medieval Europe style setting. About the closest I remember seeing to it was Brienne's double leg takedown and getting to "mount" when she beat Loras.

If anything I'd think grappling would tend to be more reliable. They say that everyone has a "puncher's chance," meaning even if you're a lot less skilled, if you're strong and fast you might get lucky and land a good blow, knocking the opponent out. But you're basically never going to beat someone who's really well trained in grappling if you don't know anything about it. It's just too complicated, thousands of techniques and all kinds of nuances, where as it's really hard to keep bobbing and slipping punches without eventually messing up. I've never done any sword fighting stuff, but I've heard it's much the same - there used to be a lot of incentive not to actually engage unless you were fairly sure you could win, because with knives and swords you're even more likely to get a major, major injury if your timing or distances is off by even a little.


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## kayd_mon

@Gryphos

It's similar to Ned's demise. It's shocking, it makes you angry and your semse of justice is screaming, but it serves to propel the story. If he did win, like we all wanted, what happens next? I think the storytelling options are more interesting the way it panned out. 

And... Well just let's watch and see what happens! 

Ok, off to the spoiler thread.


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## Gryphos

kayd_mon said:


> It's similar to Ned's demise. It's shocking, it makes you angry and your semse of justice is screaming, but it serves to propel the story. If he did win, like we all wanted, what happens next? I think the storytelling options are more interesting the way it panned out.



It makes sense from a story standpoint for Tyrion's champion to lose, yes. But to waste a great character such as Oberyn I just can't agree with. From the start he's presented as a kind of dark horse, determined to get revenge on the entire Lannister House. It's a setup for a huge arc of him gradually bringing down the Lannisters. But to have him fall dead at the first hurdle is just so unfulfilling.


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## kayd_mon

Well yeah, I get that. I really liked him in the book, and I was pretty upset at the end of this scene. In the show, it's almost like you feel it worse, since he has such a short time before the battle. And once in the battle, he's just so fun to watch!


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## Sir Kieran

Pedro Pascal did a fantastic job as Oberyn Martell - he played the part exactly as I pictured it when I read the books. The accent was dead on, he uses the same sass and passion, and I thought the trial by combat was very loyal to Martin's writing. Oberyn's death is necessary for two reasons: 

(1) Despite being a crowd favorite, and having far superior fighting skills that the Mountain That Rides, Oberyn did have two fatal flaws: one was his arrogance, and the other was his supreme dedication to revenge. Both of these flaws conspired against him. It makes sense that an arrogant character might flaunt his victory and demand a confession, ignoring the fact that the trial is not yet over. I think his death is fitting, no matter how much it tore me up inside. 
(2) It sets up events to come. Had Oberyn succeeded, the storyline would turn out much different. His death catalyzes numerous events in the future.


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## Legendary Sidekick

SM-Dreamer said:


> I did really enjoy watching Oberyn throughout the season. But as soon as he started fighting the Mountain, well. As I reminded my wife, the Mountain has that name for a REASON, and he's using a bloody 2 hander with 1 hand! I don't care how skilled you are, that is someone I want to be within reach of! As has been mentioned, one grip, one misstep...
> 
> And he did misstep, sadly. He got arrogant. He decided that Oh, I have the Mountain down, I don't have to worry about him.
> 
> I had trouble watching because every video game monster-sense was screaming "get back, get back, make sure he's dead!!!"


It was done just as I pictured it in the book. The same frustration applies, because all he needed to do was _not go near him_. He could have taunted the mountain from afar, or just cut his eyes out, or… well, anything BUT stand with his ankle near The Mountain's hand.

monyo, arm bars are fun! Yes, those hurt. I get the feeling The Viper was more of a hit-and-run type as opposed to being a skilled grappler. It seems that all pit fighters (in GRRM's world) specialize in a fighting style and become known for it. Some fighting styles get the fighters killed, though The Red Viper was good enough to beat The Mountain, so you can't blame his _style_ for his demise.


Gryphos, my brother and I both wanted to throw the same book because of the same scene. Not this one, but yeah, there is that sense of frustration when some characters have these goals but their life ends before they can realize their goals. For a tragic character, Oberon did well. He DID get The Mountain to confess. And he did put three holes in the big guy.

Sadly, it's Tyrion's plot and others' that are advanced since Oberon's arc ends here.


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## Kristene Collins

Sir Kieran said:


> Pedro Pascal did a fantastic job as Oberyn Martell - he played the part exactly as I pictured it when I read the books. The accent was dead on, he uses the same sass and passion, and I thought the trial by combat was very loyal to Martin's writing. Oberyn's death is necessary for two reasons:
> 
> (1) Despite being a crowd favorite, and having far superior fighting skills that the Mountain That Rides, Oberyn did have two fatal flaws: one was his arrogance, and the other was his supreme dedication to revenge. Both of these flaws conspired against him. It makes sense that an arrogant character might flaunt his victory and demand a confession, ignoring the fact that the trial is not yet over. I think his death is fitting, no matter how much it tore me up inside.
> (2) It sets up events to come. Had Oberyn succeeded, the storyline would turn out much different. His death catalyzes numerous events in the future.



I agree with everything in this post. Throughout this season, I kept telling myself, "don't fall in love with this character, he'll be dead before episode ten" but it was SO HARD not to! I was yelling at him as I watched the fight to cool it down and just kill Clegaine, already! Unfortunately, his story ended exactly like it did in the book. On the plus side though, his story ended _exactly_ as it did in the book!

I also have to give it up to Sansa this episode, she's learning!


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## Gryphos

Alright, I can sort of understand his death, so long as it has a big-ass payoff later. But it better have that payoff.

Another thing that I am worried about though is that his death doesn't help with the idea of the story being, strangely, so unpredictable that it's becoming, well, predictable. It's coming to the point where in a situation like this you can just go ahead and assume the worst. In fact I already kinda saw Oberyn's death coming because of it, and throughout the fight I was hoping I was wrong. Then it turns out I wasn't and I just wasn't as surprised as I was after Ned's death, for instance, because the story's conditioned me to thinking that things just don't go right for the good guys.


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## Legendary Sidekick

So much happens in _A Storm of Swords,_ I get why it took two seasons to finish that book. I bought the book after season 3 ended because episode 10 was kind of... "what? That's it?"

There were several predictions about how this season would end, but my guess is that it will end where book 3 ends--meaning this season's final episode will have AN ENDING!

For those who haven't read the books, Brienne and Podrick travel together in book 4 and Theon helping Ramsey lure dozens of Ironborns to their torturous deaths is book 5.


@Kristene, yes, it was refreshing to see the major deaths (Joffrey, Oberon) were exactly like the book.

@Sir Kieran of Massachusetts, okay... so it's not just me that felt Oberon was the most accurately portrayed of the new characters. This is the first season I watched after reading, so it was exciting to see that the look of the character and the way he fought were such a match to my own mental image. Even The Mountain's voice as he "confessed" and how it was timed with the sounds of the brutal killing... that was how I heard it in the book! (Different actor for the Mountain, though I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a big, wounded guy sounds loud and grunty.)


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## SM-Dreamer

Kristene Collins said:


> I agree with everything in this post. Throughout this season, I kept telling myself, "don't fall in love with this character, he'll be dead before episode ten" but it was SO HARD not to! I was yelling at him as I watched the fight to cool it down and just kill Clegaine, already! Unfortunately, his story ended exactly like it did in the book. On the plus side though, his story ended _exactly_ as it did in the book!
> 
> I also have to give it up to Sansa this episode, she's learning!



That's how I felt. I've read the books, I knew Oberyn was going to die, but I was yelling at him too. Like I said previously: video game sense tingling! Back off the monster!

Damn him and his arrogance, lol.

Sansa was... interesting to watch... Not what I expected.


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## Sir Kieran

SM-Dreamer said:


> Sansa was... interesting to watch... Not what I expected.



I agree. I like to think of her relationship with Littlefinger as a parallel to that between Arya and the Hound. The Hound is an expert killer, and Arya picks up some tricks along the way. Littlefinger is an expert manipulator and a genius in playing the game of thrones; I expect that Sansa will become adept. One of the producers (I forget which) mentioned in an interview that Sansa might have the capabilities to outmatch Littlefinger, that she might be the only real threat to him. Either way, I've enjoyed Sansa's story arc and cannot wait to see where she goes in The Winds of Winter / further seasons.


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## monyo

Sansa has definitely gone from being the single most boring character to one I positively look forward to seeing more of now. I had the same turnaround with Jaime as well around season 3. Still, I was definitely facepalming when I saw the last episode. I'd have gone ahead and gotten Littlefinger out of the way - along with Ramsey and a certain character who hasn't appeared yet, I'd put him as one of the three most bastardly and dangerous in the whole game. Tywin and Cersei may be bad, but as Littlefinger said, at least they're predictable. Still, maybe the right decision. Otherwise she'd probably have traded Littlefinger for being Robyn's plaything (who seems to have a bit of Joffrey in him, even if it's coming from a different place), or the centerpiece (as Winterfell's heir) in a mini-civil war amongst the Vale nobles.


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## Sir Kieran

Legendary Sidekick said:


> @Sir Kieran of Massachusetts, okay... so it's not just me that felt Oberon was the most accurately portrayed of the new characters. This is the first season I watched after reading, so it was exciting to see that the look of the character and the way he fought were such a match to my own mental image. Even The Mountain's voice as he "confessed" and how it was timed with the sounds of the brutal killing... that was how I heard it in the book! (Different actor for the Mountain, though I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a big, wounded guy sounds loud and grunty.)



In terms of character, the Lannister family is dead on. In fact, I would say most of the characters are very true to their book-selves (Jaime happens to be a personal favorite of mine, though). The Mountain . . . I wish he had not been recast. Sure, this new guy is huge and strong, but he just can't give facial expressions like Season 1 Mountain: http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02866/the-mountain_2866202k.jpg


Relating to Littlefinger, it's very hard to predict what he will do next (especially since the show is slightly veering off course from the books; for example, Littlefinger blames a singer named Marillion on Lysa's fall, and no one discovers that Alayne is actually Sansa). Petyr outlines a plan in the fifth book, to Sansa, but even then it's necessary to question everything he says. 

I think it's quite likely that Petyr will attempt to use Sansa as a pawn in his own game, while Sansa may very well do the same thing to him.


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## teacup

I'll post this on both threads. It's worth it to watch this guy's reviews, too. They make me laugh.

This is a funny video, Oberyn vs The Mountain, denial version.


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## SM-Dreamer

Sir Kieran  said:
			
		

> Relating to Littlefinger, it's very hard to predict what he will do next (especially since the show is slightly veering off course from the books; for example, Littlefinger blames a singer named Marillion on Lysa's fall, and no one discovers that Alayne is actually Sansa). Petyr outlines a plan in the fifth book, to Sansa, but even then it's necessary to question everything he says.
> 
> I think it's quite likely that Petyr will attempt to use Sansa as a pawn in his own game, while Sansa may very well do the same thing to him.



This was actually what I'd meant. I'd read the books, and so seeing Sansa suddenly spill the beans... Well, it threw me for a loop. Then Darth Sansa left me rather confused and off-footed.



			
				monyo said:
			
		

> Sansa has definitely gone from being the single most boring character



I had this thought about her at first too, until a read an article discussing her character. It made sense, and gave me a bit more appreciation for her.


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## Sir Kieran

SM-Dreamer said:


> This was actually what I'd meant. I'd read the books, and so seeing Sansa suddenly spill the beans... Well, it threw me for a loop. Then Darth Sansa left me rather confused and off-footed.
> 
> 
> 
> I had this thought about her at first too, until a read an article discussing her character. It made sense, and gave me a bit more appreciation for her.



That was an *awesome* article. I think the author hit the nail on the head, and provided an excellent analysis. When it comes to Sansa spilling the beans in the show . . . I was a bit surprised to see that too, but I understand that it's really helping her out in the show. She is easily one of my favorite characters now, because she has been removed from a position of misery into one of great potential and power. As many people root for Arya, I root for Sansa because I know that she could exact revenge on those who have hurt her (lookin' at you, Cersei...)


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## Legendary Sidekick

teacup said:


> I'll post this on both threads. It's worth it to watch this guy's reviews, too. They make me laugh.
> 
> This is a funny video, Oberyn vs The Mountain, denial version.


I didn't realize that the splat was actually broken teeth. I remembered the word "splinters" (or "splintered") being used to describe the teeth, so I was imagining that his teeth were destroyed, but watching the review and replaying the kill… wow! I was too focused on the eyes that I didn't initially noticed the shattered remains of Oberon's teeth.

As I said initially, I both loved and hated this scene. For me, this beats the Red Wedding because they followed the book exactly and actually succeeded in making the death more tragic than in the book. (I credit both the show's writers and the actors for this.)


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## teacup

> As I said initially, I both loved and hated this scene. For me, this beats the Red Wedding because they followed the book exactly and actually succeeded in making the death more tragic than in the book. (I credit both the show's writers and the actors for this.)



I think Oberyn's actor, Pedro Pascal, was fantastic in this scene. I don't exactly know why, but the way he says the lines "you raped her! you murdered her! you killed her children!" just rings with me. I keep re-watching the scene.


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## Sir Kieran

teacup said:


> I think Oberyn's actor, Pedro Pascal, was fantastic in this scene. I don't exactly know why, but the way he says the lines "you raped her! you murdered her! you killed her children!" just rings with me. I keep re-watching the scene.



Pascal is easily one of the greatest actor ever to appear on Game of Thrones, if not _the_ greatest, in my opinion. What I find really interesting about the series is that, during Robert's Rebellion, the Martells were aligned with the Mad King. I believe that most people are okay with Robert/Ned/Jon Arryn taking down the Mad King, but even I easily forget that the Martells were on the other side of the war.


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## Sir Kieran

I just finished watching Episode 9, The Watchers on the Wall. All I have to say is: wow. This was Game of Thrones at its finest.


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## SM-Dreamer

The scene in the tunnel, them speaking the words... gave me chills.


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## SeverinR

Sir Kieran said:


> I just finished watching Episode 9, The Watchers on the Wall. All I have to say is: wow. This was Game of Thrones at its finest.


Critics decried episode 9 a battle of boredom.
There was no world changing event for the "hot show". But it was not boring. Just goes to show, there is nothing set in stone when dealing with the Game of thrones.


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## Legendary Sidekick

I guess you lose something when you know how the hour-long battle will turn out. My wife definitely felt the tension more than I did. Still, I loved it. My favorite moment was the Mountain-Viper battle... but this episode-long battle was a whole show done well.

Tough critics. I can be critical of the show, but not for this episode. They killed characters who didn't die in the book, and I'm not even bothered by THAT. (Pip died in Sam's arms and Grennel died slaying the giant, but only on TV. Normally, it would piss me off to change a character's fate, especially life/death/sex. Maybe they die in book 5... I forget. I have trouble keeping track of the men in black.)


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## SeverinR

what I saw of it was not boring. 
I think the critics aren't that into the show anyway.


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## Legendary Sidekick

There were some elements of the show I've been critical of myself. I'm really not a fan of changes to the Red Wedding (though I won't dispute it was an awesome episode--I just appreciated this season's shocking deaths not deviating from the book), or other changes that make characters into cartoon villains, like Ramsey Snow vs. Asha Greyjoy. But other than striking me as odd, none of the changes killed the show for me.

There are plenty of epic battles that put me to sleep (movies, other shows taht want to be GoT but are not), but GoT really nailed it, and not just in terms of action, you could feel for characters on both sides. Well... there was more focus on slaughtered villagers in the show, so maybe caring about Ygritte took some effort, but I did feel for her when she aimed her arrow at Jon. That didn't happen in the book, but I think that's one of those "changes made for the screen" that I can buy into.

I'm going to assume those critics would bore me more than the show bored them, so I'll check out Ozzy Man's review if it's up yet.


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## SeverinR

Just checked the tote board. Sadly actor/actress awards are low.
Who are the two award winning stars of GOT. (not just nominated)
One won 4, the other 1.

It would seem that most of the main stars have been nominated, but never won.
All but the youngest Stark has been nominated.

Saturn awards are pending;
*Nikolaj Coster-Waldau: Jaime Lannister
**Jack Gleeson*: Jeoffrey Baratheon
Gwendoline Christie:Brienne of Tarth
Michelle Fairley: Catelyn Starke


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## kayd_mon

Eh, pro critics are rarely worth listening to. Regular people who have nothing to gain or lose by reviewing something have far more valuable opinions.


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## teacup

> I'm going to assume those critics would bore me more than the show bored them, so I'll check out Ozzy Man's review if it's up yet.


I hope he goes back to do seasons 1-3. I've laughed at every one so far.


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## Legendary Sidekick

kayd_mon said:


> Eh, pro critics are rarely worth listening to. Regular people who have nothing to gain or lose by reviewing something have *far more valuable opinions.*


That's what I like about Ozzy Man. He isn't taking himself too seriously, he's having fun... yet, he really puts a lot of thought into his reviews. His Lego Movie review impressed me quite a bit and actually made me consider renting it. (Being a father of daughters, I was thinking of not since it seems rather boyish.) The guy's not just about being funny and swearing. He knows what he likes, and seems to know quite a bit about film and writing.



@Teacup, me too.


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## SeverinR

SeverinR said:


> Who are the two award winning stars of GOT. (not just nominated)
> One won 4, the other 1.


Peter Dinklage(the Imp) and Emilia Clarke (dragon mother)


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## SeverinR

teacup said:


> I hope he goes back to do seasons 1-3. I've laughed at every one so far.



Ozzy does Game of Thrones?


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## teacup

> Ozzy does Game of Thrones?



Ozzy man, the youtuber, yes. It's most of what he does. He has some other videos but mostly Game of Thrones S4 reviews.
Here: Ozzy Man - YouTube


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## SeverinR

I do like that review


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## SeverinR

I think Game of Thrones was robbed at the Emmy's.
No wins?
So many amazing episodes, so many great performances!

So here is a few awards I would hand out:
1.Best psychotic laugh in a dramatic series?
2.Best dramatic monologue in a series?
3.Best actor using only one word to convey his many emotions and attitudes?
4.Best scene linking the holiday to the character demise?
5.Best symbolism in a character demise?

I believe Dinklage, Williams, McCann,  and of course Nairn should have won.


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## SeverinR

1. Arya Stark laughing 
2. Tyrion's testimony at a trial.
3. Shouldn't have to even say it, Hodor.
4. char kills father on father's day.
5. in the privy

edited to not be a spoiler.

Look up Wierd Al at the Emmy's, at least Game of Thrones got some recognition.
I wonder if RR got to keep the typewriter?


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## Legendary Sidekick

Two things that made Father's Day 2014 unforgettable: that @#$% parking ticket and the GoT Father's Day special!

But wow... no wins? I don't know what show has a greater following than GoT. Maybe lots of them... what do I know about that? But with so many people not into fantasy being fans of the show, so much that you can go into a Starbucks and start talking about it with the person making your coffee? Can _True Blood_ boast that? _NCIS?_ That reality show where good looking people all have sex with each other on an island then cry about it?
(I don't even know if those shows won anything. Blissful ignorance is what I like best about my own little world.)


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## SeverinR

Several people paraphrased the Hound's speech:
#$%^ the Emmies,
I would go so far as #$%^ the SAG, #$%^ the Emmies, #$%^ Hollywood.

The big winner this year was "Breaking Wind"...I mean "Breaking bad."


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