# Writing a Prologue



## Nyx (Nov 26, 2011)

I have a bit of a problem, I have a prologue but it's contains two different POV characters, with two different events (one for each). One happens about 3 weeks after the other. How would I pull that off in a prologue?

Also this probably is a sin but if it helps, it's being written in first person POV. 

Any help would really be appreciated. :3


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## Devor (Nov 26, 2011)

Nyx said:


> I have a bit of a problem, I have a prologue but it's contains two different POV characters, with two different events (one for each). One happens about 3 weeks after the other. How would I pull that off in a prologue?
> 
> Also this probably is a sin but if it helps, it's being written in first person POV.
> 
> Any help would really be appreciated. :3



You could try two separate prologues, or else a simple scene break between the two.  It depends, I think, on how closely they connect to each other.  Are they, for instance, two different heists by the same group of thieves?  Just use a scene break.  Are they as different as a Prime Minister meeting the new Minister of Magic, vs. Snape meeting with other Death Eaters?   Two prologues, although if it's the first book in the series you probably want to find a way to designate both of them as prologues.


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## Nyx (Nov 26, 2011)

Hey and thanks for taking time to reply Devor. I really should have been more specific.

It is two of my main characters at different points. The first is the prince when he watches as his father lets his mother die instead of getting a healer, so he can marry another younger woman. This causes a few things to happen later including the king trying to kill his own son so he doesn't expose what the king has done.

The second part will be my main main character finding and bonding with a dragon who is newly hatched and abandoned, that he needs to hide and protect. I feel I need this because in my world there are only 2 -4 dragons rumoured to be left in this world so if I just have him introduced with a dragon it's gonna look very weird. 

I was thinking of doing something like 
Prologue
    I
*first pov here*

     II

But seeing as there are loads of fantasy writers here, I thought I would get some advice. Yes it is a series, the 12 books in the series have came to me over the last 3 years. So much for only one book eh? lol

Sorry if that was a bit long :3


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## Kelise (Nov 26, 2011)

I've been told by authors to never include two different POVs in the same chapter, so I would separate them as much as possible.  Especially if they're three weeks apart. 

A scene break alone isn't enough distinction that there's a POV change, especially if it's going to be written in first person.


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## Nyx (Nov 26, 2011)

So could I have two chapters or two parts to a prologue? Or is that still a no-no?


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## newtofantasy (Nov 26, 2011)

Nyx, I'd nix the two part Prologue unless it's too parts of the same incident. The second part--especially in first person--should be very easy to work in as a short memory when the mc and the dragon are first presented. Something like he was so glad he'd saved one of the only 5 remaining dragons in the land; or he was surprised at how rapidly the dragon had grown; or how tightly they had bonded.

Only quick top of the head suggestions, but you get the idea.

Good wishes for you.


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## Nyx (Nov 26, 2011)

newtofantasy that's quite a good idea. I had a look over my outline, and, if I tweak some stuff for the first chapter they appear in I could slip something in without it turning into an infodump. 
:3


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## newtofantasy (Nov 26, 2011)

I wouldn't think a few quick lines would constitute an infodump. Just be sure you don't turn it into a "As you know, Bob. . ."


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## Nyx (Nov 26, 2011)

Nah that's my worst fear in the world. I was thinking of maybe having the prince and the person who helped him escape hide out in the cave the dragon (who is still a baby) is hidden in. As it is still a baby it think's it's playtime, as it's near the time the guy usually comes to take it out to exercise and have fun. Of course it scares the jeebus out of them. I'm thinking of having the guy appear and having a similar conversation to this.
"don't worry he won't hurt you" - owner
"how do you know?" - prince
"He's mine, well I found him abandoned" - owner

Obviously it will be a lot better than that, but is that a good way?


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## newtofantasy (Nov 26, 2011)

I'd say yes, but I'm new to fantasy. As a writer of a straight novel, I would do it like that. Also in fantasy, I might say you know he's an endangered dragon. --*ah, yes, the peasants favorite dragon gumbo has certainly had its effect on the species!* 

Unless of course you're a Midwestern Am, or a UK citizen or whatever--I guess you could say Dragon Stew. It's a way to answer my question: why is the dragon endangered?


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## Nyx (Nov 26, 2011)

I am from the UK, but, gumbo sounds better than stew may I include that? That is just too funny. 
Dragons are endangered mainly because kings fear them and the power a person could have if they tamed and befriended one. They are essentially all scared of being overthrown, so they spread rumours that all dragons must die because they are the servants of the darkness. Once killed they are used for all things such as jewellery, food, medicine, or just to show off as a prize.


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## newtofantasy (Nov 26, 2011)

Gumbo is not original with me, for sure, so you may use it as freely as you please!!


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## Nyx (Nov 26, 2011)

Oh I mean Gumbo sounds better than stew.
I was asking if I could use the dialogue you used as an example for me. It's very funny.


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## newtofantasy (Nov 26, 2011)

Nyx--of course you may use it! I've got a million more like it.  Thanks to you and Lisa, I'm beginning to think I might find an audience out there after all.

If I can be of further help, just ask. Not to say I'll be able to, but I'll give it a try.


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## Nyx (Nov 26, 2011)

Thanks for the help :3 Really appreciate it. Mainly to make this thread a bit useful I have another question for everyone about prologues.

What do you hate to see in prologues?


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## mirrorrorrim (Nov 26, 2011)

Nyx said:


> Thanks for the help :3 Really appreciate it. Mainly to make this thread a bit useful I have another question for everyone about prologues.
> 
> What do you hate to see in prologues?



This might be a little weird, but I really hate it when the prologue is about the villain doing something really evil that the main character won't find out about for half the book (if they ever do find out about it). It seems that about half of the prologues I read in fantasy are some variation of this.

It's not that I think the concept itself is bad—prologues are usually used to quickly build interest in a story before the author goes through all the exposition, and having a scary villain is, in concept, a great way to do this. The problem is, they usually come off as really cliche. Most writers just don't have the skill to make a villain unique _or_ scary in three pages. Trying to do both is all but doomed to fail. This is particularly true because the villain usually always does one of two things: either she kills a heroic person you know nothing about (who valiantly resists to the end), or does some random act of senseless violence, such as disposing of her own servants with some grotesque form of torture because they failed her.

That's just me, though. I guess a lot of people must feel differently, or it wouldn't be done so much.

And please don't take offense. I think your prologue sounds great. I'm just talking about prologues in general.


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## Nyx (Nov 26, 2011)

mirrorrorrim said:


> This might be a little weird, but I really hate it when the prologue is about the villain doing something really evil that the main character won't find out about for half the book (if they ever do find out about it). It seems that about half of the prologues I read in fantasy are some variation of this.



I am so with you there! Although I did like The Eye Of The World's prologue, I actually cared about the guy in it! I was all D: when that happened to him at the end. I so called what was up with Rand within 13 pages though. 



> And please don't take offense. I think your prologue sounds great. I'm just talking about prologues in general.


Not offended :3 I like discussing other writers likes and dislikes. Especially in Fantasy. I am a newb in all sense of the word so I see discussions like this, and even people saying they dislike my stuff because I learn from it. :3 I am a very weird creature, you could rip my stuff to shreds and I would thank you. Why? Because someone took time to try to help me improve.


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## Phoenix (Nov 26, 2011)

Ever read Game of Thrones? Its prologue had tiny relevance at the beginning of the book. Its not until almost (I think it is) the last chapter that its relevant. I was expecting it all the way through. It bugged me. 

 Anyways I think the Prince should have the prologue. You can work the MC into the first chapter. Sounds kinda of like Eargon to tell you the truth. Were you influenced by it?


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## Nyx (Nov 26, 2011)

I'm reading the 3rd book atm of a song of ice and fire. that prologue made me rage quit the series for a few months. I', more a Wheel of Time girl tbh.

omg no. D: my poor dragon I have failed you D:
No I never read any of the eragon series books past the first 2 chapters of each book, I could never get into them. Socorro is a baby in the book so causes some mischief but hes very lovable. TBH I'm not doing Rin or Socorro any justice right now with being vague lol.


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## Phoenix (Nov 26, 2011)

Its cool. Please don't make your dragon fly into the sun, and become huge when he comes back. That's called skipping plot development.


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## Nyx (Nov 26, 2011)

He will be able to fly by the end of the book, maybe not exactly perfect (dunk in the lake anyone?), but he can fly. I think Socorro has a long way to go before he becomes huge. I have heard from others their "horror" stories of the Eragon series. I personally couldn't get past the jarring writing, Which, is a shame because I love dragons. :3


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## Phoenix (Nov 26, 2011)

Yes! It annoyed me so much. The dragon should have to grow like any normal creature. Not with the power of sunlight. Have you came up with your external struggles? Are they trying to take the throne?


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## Nyx (Nov 26, 2011)

If I read a book or seen a movie that did that I would use the book as a coaster for the rest of its life and no doubt I would walk out the movie.
I have a few bits here and there and I actually have my ending. The middle and most of the struggles however I still need to plan out. I don't know if he wants the throne yet. I do know he wants his father to pay for what he's done, so most likely he will inform an enemy of his fathers which triggers off the events that leads to the dare I say "heartbreaking" ending.


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## Phoenix (Nov 26, 2011)

Oh, the killing of MCs I smell?


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## Nyx (Nov 26, 2011)

Only 1 and I got a feeling it will be the one people get attached to. I just hope the ending I give, will not be all clichÃ©d and awful.


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## Phoenix (Nov 26, 2011)

Thanks for giving away that she's a female. Sine there's only one we'll know who it is too. I won't even read it...JK! But you might want to watch for spoilers in the future.


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## Nyx (Nov 26, 2011)

I don't think I'll be posting it here as I'm not good at giving critiques so it's not fair of me to ask for one :3 It's not really set in stone as I have 4 possible endings and possibly another POV since a plot line just popped into my head so I doubt you'll know which of the (now) two of them dies. I should really shut off the music  Not that I would expect it to be interesting enough for people to want to read. Plus if I want help in how to execute my ending I was going to have to give it away anyway lol.

:3


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## ThinkerX (Nov 26, 2011)

> It is two of my main characters at different points. The first is the prince when he watches as his father lets his mother die instead of getting a healer, so he can marry another younger woman. This causes a few things to happen later including the king trying to kill his own son so he doesn't expose what the king has done.
> 
> The second part will be my main main character finding and bonding with a dragon who is newly hatched and abandoned, that he needs to hide and protect. I feel I need this because in my world there are only 2 -4 dragons rumoured to be left in this world so if I just have him introduced with a dragon it's gonna look very weird


Possible solution:

The prologue is all one piece, from the POV of a character who see's *both* events. Maybe a faithful servant or 'rat in the walls' type character.


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## Nyx (Nov 26, 2011)

Neither have anything to do with the other. Rin (the guy with the dragon) lives a fair bit away from the castle with his grandmother. Also nobody but Rin and the others (eventually) know about the dragon. :3


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## ThinkerX (Nov 27, 2011)

> Neither have anything to do with the other. Rin (the guy with the dragon) lives a fair bit away from the castle with his grandmother. Also nobody but Rin and the others (eventually) know about the dragon. :3



Still workable from a different perspective.  One character - the POV prologue character witnesses the bit with the dragon, or enough of it to get a glimmer of whats going on.  He then goes to his cousin or other relative who works in the castle, who is utterly dismissive about his tale of a dragon, but has a tale of his own - the kings antics.  Shortly afterwards, one or both characters either die or leave the area altogether.

I would also point out that keeping something like a dragon secret - especially with the setup you describe - is going to wear at the mind of your prmary character, who is likely to be jumping at shadows and rumors.  A rumor based on what the POV character saw would go a long ways towards upping the tension:  who was this person? was there an actual witness? who did he tell? who believes this story?  and so on and so forth.


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## Nyx (Nov 27, 2011)

Again nobody but the king and his son know that a healer could have cured his mother. It's why the king resorts to plotting to kill his own son. That is a great idea for a prologue though, even if it's not for me. :3 thanks for taking the time to give me help.


Yeah there are always rumours going around about dragon sightings so my main character is very paranoid about the rumours he hears in the market. He only sneaks out after midnight to feed and let the dragon out near the lake to have some exercise/fun. I am planning a near miss or something in the first chapter they appear in. He might get caught but then I have no idea right now how Rin would react, or if indeed he would kill to keep Socorro safe.

:3


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## ThinkerX (Nov 27, 2011)

> Again nobody but the king and his son know that a healer could have cured his mother. It's why the king resorts to plotting to kill his own son. That is a great idea for a prologue though, even if it's not for me. :3 thanks for taking the time to give me help.



Used to be a sign on the wall of a place I worked at:

`Do you want to speak to the person in charge?  Or do you want to speak to the person who knows whats going on?'

Because you have the management (the King in your story) who gives the orders on the one hand, and then you have the employees (servants in your story) who actually carry out those orders, do the work involved.  

There is a tendency among the upper crust (royalty, nobility) to simply not see the servants they depend on.

Yes, the King could very well have attempted what you describe and thought that it would be a secret, but it is about 99% certain that despite any precautions he took, at least a couple the servants in the castle would still have a pretty fair idea what happened. The servants job pretty much depends on knowing what his master is up to at any given time, what their masters think, what they want, what all their little habits are.  What you are describing is a disruption to their routine - and that *will* get noticed.  Now if the king is a truely nasty sort - as you seem to suggest - he might decide to do away with the servants who might have had an inkling as to what was going on along with the son.  A smarter or more paranoid servant might decide to vamoose before becoming the guest of honor at his own funeral. 



> Yeah there are always rumours going around about dragon sightings so my main character is very paranoid about the rumours he hears in the market. He only sneaks out after midnight to feed and let the dragon out near the lake to have some exercise/fun. I am planning a near miss or something in the first chapter they appear in. He might get caught but then I have no idea right now how Rin would react, or if indeed he would kill to keep Socorro safe.



Move the 'near miss' to the prologue and make it a *very* near miss - maybe he see's part of the dragon binding ceremony. The prologue POV character is the witness, and the souirce of some of the initial rumors about the dragon your main character has to confront.  Shortly after his near miss with the dragon, the prologue POV character meets up with his cousin or inlaw from the castle, the one who had a pretty fair idea what the king did and lit out about two steps ahead of the royal guard.  They exchange tales...and then both wind up dead when attacked by 'bandits' - actually kingsmen cleaning up loose ends.


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## Phoenix (Nov 27, 2011)

I think that how far he's willing to go to protect the Dragon should be one of the main points of your story.


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## Nyx (Nov 27, 2011)

Dragon binding? I think you may have me mixed up with Eragon I think that's from? This dragon simply just takes to him because he cares for it.

I actually don't like it when authors use a random POV character in a prologue and then you never see them again. I think I will stick to my 3-4 main POV characters the whole way through. You did hit on how I perceive the king though. He has killed people he thought may know, slaves and relatives. Your idea just isn't my style but thanks thinkerX.

Pheonix is that a vote for a kill in the first chapter? lol 
Also Rin and Socorro's bond plays a big part in this book.


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## Phoenix (Nov 27, 2011)

No! A first kill in the chapter would be to soon. He wouldn't have bonded to the dragon as much. When he finds out how important the dragon is (to him and the world), then the question arises. I think the Prince should want to use the Dragon to take the Throne from is father. Rin (like the simple name for the peasant) might have conflicting issues over this. Of course this wouldn't be solved in the first book because the Dragon would have to grow to be useful in battle.


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## Nyx (Nov 27, 2011)

By the time Rin finally gets a chapter he'll have had the dragon at least 3 months. Having the prince want to use him is an interesting plot point. I didn't really try to give the peasants simple names, they have names that suit their personality, one of the slaves is call Fleur. I am thinking of making each book of the series independent, same world new story if you know what I mean.


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## Phoenix (Nov 27, 2011)

So that's why you wanted it included in the prologue. How big is this going to be? Looks like you would have to cover a lot of land in one novel.


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## Nyx (Nov 27, 2011)

Yeah I might have to do two parts whether I like a series within a series or not. If you mean how big is this book going to be I can estimate between 100,000 and 130,000 words. If you mean the series as a whole then I have planned 12 books. :3


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## Phoenix (Nov 27, 2011)

Oh, going far, going far! Well I hope your writing is a a success. If you would, could you show a passage of your book?


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## Nyx (Nov 27, 2011)

It started out as one book then my muse took over. Good luck on your writing to and at the moment I don't have anything except a rough draft of my prologue and chapter 1 which I won't kill anyone's site with just yet. :3 thanks for all the help.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Nov 27, 2011)

> I don't think I'll be posting it here as I'm not good at giving critiques so it's not fair of me to ask for one



If you know how to read, you know how to critique.  If you do nothing but one of three things it is very useful:  
Huh?  _This doesn't make sense._
What?  _You're kidding, no one would believe that._
ZZZZZ  _Self explanatory._

Even if you don't know why something is boring, you can still point out where you lost interest, as well as where it doesn't make sense, or isn't very believable.  So, don't feel you have to know the reason to give a critique, you just need to be able to point out where things aren't working for you.  Let the author figure out what, or if, they need to do anything about it.

Now, the two first person pov in the same story, I think you will find it doesn't work well.  First person is used for single pov stories.  When you plan on using more than one, you use third.  With third person you can change from one pov character to another with only a scene break and keep right on going.  There is also an aversion to first person pov that a lot of people seem to have, so that is another thing to consider as well.  For me, switching characters in first person is wrong.  Some will probably disagree, but after a few decades of reading, I can't remember any books where it was done.  

The other question is to really determine if the prolog is necessary.  A prolog is usually something that isn't part of the main flow of the story, something that would happen before (or after sometimes) the story you are telling.  Many of them really aren't needed, starting with the story should be good enough, and if there is something that is in the past that needs to be relayed, it can be done in a flashback, or just outright told at some point by the one who was there.  Evil mastermind prologs scream cliche though.


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## Nyx (Nov 28, 2011)

Lord Darkstorm said:


> If you know how to read, you know how to critique.  If you do nothing but one of three things it is very useful:
> Huh?  _This doesn't make sense._
> What?  _You're kidding, no one would believe that._
> ZZZZZ  _Self explanatory._
> ...


I'll try that, I guess to me critiques are what I learned in school. *shudder*



> Now, the two first person pov in the same story, I think you will find it doesn't work well.  First person is used for single pov stories.  When you plan on using more than one, you use third.  With third person you can change from one pov character to another with only a scene break and keep right on going.  There is also an aversion to first person pov that a lot of people seem to have, so that is another thing to consider as well.  For me, switching characters in first person is wrong.  Some will probably disagree, but after a few decades of reading, I can't remember any books where it was done.


It's really just an experiment with POV at this stage. I do intend to rewrite it in third and in first with each telling the story by themselves and compare them. I haven't found what I write best in yet so might as-well use this as a guinea pig. :3 
The prologue might not be needed and will probably end up being cut but I like messing around with things and seeing why something works or not.



> Evil mastermind prologs scream cliche though.


They don't just scream cliche they batter you about the head with it too.


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## Elder the Dwarf (Nov 29, 2011)

Agreed with Darkstorm, most posters in the showcase are looking more for comments as to whether the plot is interesting or working than anything else (I personally don't mind grammar/style comments, but it is a personal thing).  The only thing that I would say in caution is that if the work is not in the area or type of fantasy that you usually read, consider that before saying that the plot or other elements suck.  For instance, I don't read much sci fi, so I usually stick to reviewing the fantasy pieces.  There are certainly exceptions, though.


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## Nyx (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm still learning grammar/style myself so I wouldn't comment on that on anyone's piece. Sci-Fi can be hard for me to read too Elder but there are some I love even if they are heavy going. :3


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## JCFarnham (Nov 30, 2011)

It boils down this (And I apologise if this has already been said.. tl;dr -grin-):

A lot of young authors are tempted to include a prologue for the sole reason to expose more worldbuilding than they _believe_ can be injected into the book proper. If you are considering writing a prologue you need to ask yourself a couple of questions. 1st) Can this prologue be re-billed as the first chapter and not lose anything? and 2nd) Can the action/information in the prologue be revealed to just as much effect within the following chapters, whether through rumour, dialogue, narrative, whatever?

I wouldn't dream of saying I'll never write a prologue, because I honestly can't say WHAT I'll be writing in the future. If I find the only way I can possibly make a story work is to have a prologue (and it can be justified) then I will. It is after all a writing technique in its own right, definitely not something we should dismiss entirely, rather, something that should be taken with as much a critical eye as every other technique in our tool boxes of craft


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## Nyx (Nov 30, 2011)

I don't think of myself as young any more lol

It is an essential part of the story, not world building. I just thought it would be better having it as a prologue instead if as chapter 1 as there's going to be at least a months time skipped. I'm not too fond of prologues myself but heh . 

I just don't want to  to chapter 4 and my characters be like "oh hey did I tell you my fathers trying to kill me because I know he let my mother die and could of helped because.... *huge paragraph*" or "hey guys this is how I got my dragon" XD


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## Steerpike (Nov 30, 2011)

I agree that if it can be re-billed as Chapter 1, that's probably a better way to go, if for no other reason that many readers are put off by prologues. I know if I pick up a book and see there is a prologue, I'm more likely to put it back on the shelf because I do not, as a rule, like prologues. In a few cases I've skipped them and gone straight to Chapter 1. People differ on how they view them, but to me a prologue is the author saying "Hey, I know the story really starts in Chapter 1, but let me tell you this other stuff first..."


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## JCFarnham (Nov 30, 2011)

Nyx said:


> I don't think of myself as young any more lol
> 
> It is an essential part of the story, not world building. I just thought it would be better having it as a prologue instead if as chapter 1 as there's going to be at least a months time skipped. I'm not too fond of prologues myself but heh .
> 
> I just don't want to  to chapter 4 and my characters be like "oh hey did I tell you my fathers trying to kill me because I know he let my mother die and could of helped because.... *huge paragraph*" or "hey guys this is how I got my dragon" XD



Even if there's a time jump I would still _consider_ opening chapter one with that scene, then jumping to the main character. I'm sure billions of writers out there are now screaming at me saying, if you don't introduce you're main straight away you're doing something wrong, but hell rules are meant to be bent, so screw you "billions of writers".

If you cannot possibly fit any of the foreshadowing into an earlier chapter, then perhaps a prologue is worth it. You may want to consider dropping any tags like "prologue" though. Just a little trick to get people who would usually skip one to read it. Could work?


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## Nyx (Nov 30, 2011)

hmm JC that's a brilliant idea. :3
I've just been told (more like screamed at) by quite a few people that say your not allowed to have time jumps.  The prologue character is a main character. ^.^


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## JCFarnham (Nov 30, 2011)

Nyx said:


> hmm JC that's a brilliant idea. :3
> I've just been told (more like screamed at) by quite a few people that say your not allowed to have time jumps.  The prologue character is a main character. ^.^



Not allowed to have time jumps? That is frankly the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Nothing is out of bounds, if it were there would be no point in writing, there is after all a reason they call courses on it _creative_ writing.

Anyway, I think in your case (and especially if your "prologue"'s main is the main for the rest of the story) you may as well throw all in Chapter One. I would personally do it in flashback, during the main events of chapter one but that's just me and my style, not necessarily yours. 

Feel free to write how ever you want. More often than not people only rally against things because they're different, or they haven't gotten used to them. Thats all


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## Nyx (Nov 30, 2011)

Yeah I have been on a few writing sites that didn't like anything outside the norm.
I might just do what you said with either having it as chapter one and having the time jump or doing the flashbacks. 
thanks :3


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## Lord Darkstorm (Dec 1, 2011)

The reason so many people have problems with things like flashbacks and frames is that they are often times overused, used for the wrong reasons, and more often than not...done badly.  So most people that have read a few dozen badly done flashbacks, or the pointless frame that isn't even needed, they tend to say not to use them rather than try and explain how to properly use them.  

The problem most people have with flashbacks is that they can cause confusion and throw the reader out of the story to figure out what is going on.  That is where many people go wrong I think.  A flashback is easy to just toss in, but the reader has to be taken to the previous point in time in a way that lets them know that is where they are going, and then brought back in the same manner.  Sound simple, but it is very easy to either use a cliche lead in/lead out, or just mangle it.  The other thing many people have done is add things that don't really have that much importance.  My current novel I'm trying to get the rest of the background for so I can finally write it the way it should be will have about 80 to 90 percent more background information that the reader will ever know about.  The problem many of us face is after all the work we put into building the world the characters will live in, we feel that a great number of those details have to be important to the reader...since so much time was put into creating it.  Most of it though, isn't important to the reader, it's important to the writer so that the world they portray has the proper depth and feel it should.  When we know all the details, the writing will show it, and the reader will find the story better than if we don't.  Forcing all that background noise into the story tends to make it full of junk and most often only serves to annoy the reader.  

These are things I've seen over and over, as do many others who do crits on forums.  I can understand, and am sometimes guilty of, not being patient and helping the writer to understand that it isn't that the use of a flashback is wrong, but too often it isn't needed.  Hearing that you can't possibly know good writing (since the person you just finished giving a crit for is ticked you didn't praise them for it), it starts to get easier to just say, don't do this, over try and explain why to someone who probably won't listen.  The proper thing would be, don't use it till you learn when, where, and why first.


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## Nyx (Dec 1, 2011)

First of all Lord Darkstorm, I have to thank you for taking the time to give me advice and write these posts for me. It's very much appreciated.  Now lets see if I can do your post justice. 



Lord Darkstorm said:


> The reason so many people have problems with things like flashbacks and frames is that they are often times overused, used for the wrong reasons, and more often than not...done badly.  So most people that have read a few dozen badly done flashbacks, or the pointless frame that isn't even needed, they tend to say not to use them rather than try and explain how to properly use them.


I was made to read a book in school that was filled with flashbacks, clichÃ©s, and massive time jumps that jumped important events. You were still supposed to know what was going on though. I have that book to thank for putting the fear of god in me that my writing would turn out that bad. 



> The problem most people have with flashbacks is that they can cause confusion and throw the reader out of the story to figure out what is going on.  That is where many people go wrong I think.  A flashback is easy to just toss in, but the reader has to be taken to the previous point in time in a way that lets them know that is where they are going, and then brought back in the same manner.  Sound simple, but it is very easy to either use a cliche lead in/lead out, or just mangle it.  The other thing many people have done is add things that don't really have that much importance.



I've tried to write a few flashbacks today as practice and I totally agree that they are extremely hard. I doubt I will be including any until I am a lot better at writing them. I don't want to mangle it as you put it. I love that word   I also agree that adding "filler" really ruins a good meaty story. I feel my OCD slipping into my writing a lot, which is a blessing as it makes me cut a lot of stuff I like but was never really needed. It will be an improvement in the long run  :3



> My current novel I'm trying to get the rest of the background for so I can finally write it the way it should be will have about 80 to 90 percent more background information that the reader will ever know about.  The problem many of us face is after all the work we put into building the world the characters will live in, we feel that a great number of those details have to be important to the reader...since so much time was put into creating it.  Most of it though, isn't important to the reader, it's important to the writer so that the world they portray has the proper depth and feel it should.



High five?
I've been building my world for 3 years now and I am not even close to finishing. Is it still fun for you? I'm always interested in how others build their worlds. I know that not even 1% of what I have now will make it into my books. I have the belief that if I don't know my world inside out, how am I supposed to portray it vividly to the reader. Leaving my world after 12 books though might be a bit hard for me lol. 



> When we know all the details, the writing will show it, and the reader will find the story better than if we don't.



I think I might print that out and stick it on my wall by my desk.



> These are things I've seen over and over, as do many others who do crits on forums.  I can understand, and am sometimes guilty of, not being patient and helping the writer to understand that it isn't that the use of a flashback is wrong, but too often it isn't needed. Hearing that you can't possibly know good writing (since the person you just finished giving a crit for is ticked you didn't praise them for it), it starts to get easier to just say, don't do this, over try and explain why to someone who probably won't listen.



Well I totally understand that many people don't want to spend their time trying to help people, when in the past when they have spent a long time writing a crit to help somebody they have had it thrown back in their face. It never makes sense to me as 9 times out of 10 it will be good advice that will teach the person something and improve the story. 



> The proper thing would be, don't use it till you learn when, where, and why first.



Another great bit of advice :3


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## Lord Darkstorm (Dec 1, 2011)

> I've been building my world for 3 years now and I am not even close to finishing. Is it still fun for you?


Yes, and each new world is.  While I read a lot of fantasy, I write mostly scifi.  Strang maybe, but I have two colony worlds now, the one I'm working on has been on and off in creation for about four years.   I have all the technologies down, I have a nice list of major and minor characters, the major characters are fairly well defined, and I'm working through the others.  I still need to do a bit of playing with maps of the main city and some of the areas I plan on dragging one of the main characters through.  One detail that isn't actually mentioned in the book, but will have at least a descriptive word or two, is that the main capitol of the world is a plateau which was originally the top of a mountain.  When the colony ship arrived, it melted the top to form it's own landing site.  Such a tidbit of knowedge is many thousands of years old, and no one really know it.  But when people actually walk down the streets, they are walking on metal roads (high iron content) that is almost perfectly flat.  While I could find a way of adding it to the story, only the detail of the top of the plateau being smooth iron will be mentioned.  Why it is, and how it came to be isn't important, just the little detail which adds a bit of detail and a very minor question and a tiny bit of depth.  With hundreds more little details, the writing should take on that additional depth and believability that makes it feel real in the mind of the reader. 

I sometimes wonder if all the work is going to be worth it, but every time I've put a great deal of effort into knowing the world and characters I'm writing about, it show.  When I don't, it shows too...but not in a way I like.


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## Nyx (Dec 1, 2011)

I have been wanting to try Sci-Fi but I am not well enough read in the genre to do my plot any justice at the minute. Your colony's sound really interesting especially the tiny little detail about the roads. 

Do you draw your maps? It's something I really need to try to do with my world.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Dec 1, 2011)

maps are just to know where things are.  While I do like maps in books sometimes, they aren't really a requirement for me.  I get confused if I don't know where things are, and sometimes new ideas come when putting them together.  If you are designing a village, what would a village need?  Blacksmith?  probably.  A mill, yah, but what drives the grinding wheels?  water? horses...those types of things.  As you get going, you find out where things are, and who's about the place.  For a overnight stay at the inn, probably not needed, but spending a month, it is worth knowing what's about.

Cities are bigger, have more places, more areas.  I have a city on a plateau, and below it is more, down to the roots of the mountain.  Some people live there entire lives never seeing the sun (or the planets star).   Those maps are usually more general, with areas defined and only places where a scene might take place being more detailed.


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## Nyx (Dec 1, 2011)

Ah I thought you meant maps as in drawing them :3
I haven't even got down to my villages yet, I'm still organising where all the kingdoms are, tightening my plot writing mythology etc.
I can't draw to save myself so if I ever do draw myself maps of my world they wont be leaving my notebook lol. I am more of a visual person so even if its just lines on a piece of paper it would be better for myself to get it down for reference.


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## DameiThiessen (Dec 2, 2011)

I've got four different prologues that I need to find space for. So my solution is going to be to sprinkle them within the story. 

For example, a chapter could be a character telling one of them (maybe in first person POV). That might be a good way to explain something without a huge infodump while still establishing character. I want to tell the majority of the story as an omnipresent observer so the reader can observe body language and action and infer things for themselves, so having a character tell the background is essential. You could do this too with your story.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Dec 2, 2011)

> I want to tell the majority of the story as an omnipresent observer so the reader can observe body language and action and infer things for themselves, so having a character tell the background is essential. You could do this too with your story.



 The few onmi books I've read that did work, it wasn't camera on the wall, it was in the characters heads, and feeling their feelings.  Just watching them like a camera on the wall won't give you the same impact.


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## DameiThiessen (Dec 2, 2011)

Lord Darkstorm said:


> The few onmi books I've read that did work, it wasn't camera on the wall, it was in the characters heads, and feeling their feelings.  Just watching them like a camera on the wall won't give you the same impact.



It's challenging for sure. You have to be very meticulous when describing body language, tone, and subtle actions. But if course it's not all fly on the wall - you add in what the character sees as well. For example, in one scene there's a party and the MC is looking around at everybody. You see a boy and a girl together. He's talking and smiling, and she's not. But then you see her smile a little bit. You don't actually hear what they're saying or know what they're talking about, you just watch them. And you know from little things like that that she's starting to like him. The MC doesn't say anything or think anything about it, just the reader does. There isn't anybody's opinion or thought interrupting the scene, and that's why I like it. 

Anyway, the point that I was making was that because I write like that but I still want to give some information on the background of the story, I would need a character to tell it, because there is no narrator in the book. Just an omnipresent observer. (But hell, I change my mind so often who knows if that will stick xP)


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