# GoT Season Five [NO SPOILERS, PLEASE]



## Legendary Sidekick

Season Five begins today! Please use this thread to discuss the show.

Fellow readers, please resist the urge to compare the show to the books or speculate on future episodes. There's another thread for that.

Fans of the show, only click on this thread if you've seen the latest episode. Any show that has aired is up for discussion. I never catch the 9:00 showing, so I will stay clear of this thread from 9-11 on Sunday nights.



As of 10:00 EST (or 9:something if you'd like), feel free to post reactions to episode 1!


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## SeverinR

Kind of a slow season opener, but when you end on such a climax, its hard to have a great opener.

I think Stanis showed himself again, to be a poor leader.  I also think John showed he is a good and compassionate leader.
I think the burning scene shows the good, the heartless and the evil of those observers.

The package that is Tyrion arrives, a little worse for wear, but it did arrive in one piece.

Dany is troubled with establishing a just and fair society and has to deal with insurgents.


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## Reaver

I bought the first season on Blu-Ray because of this trailer, but turns out that the show isn't funny at all.


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## MineOwnKing

I would enjoy it more with less profanity.


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## SeverinR

I don't understand why Littlefinger wasted the lives of 3-5 of his men on trying to prevent Brienne from leaving. If they died getting rid of her, that would be one thing.

I think Dany could have went either way on the death sentence.  Proclaim: "for preventing justice from being obstructed by the killing of a suspect, the sentence is death."
 She could have also shown mercy by also adding: "This man didn't understand the concept of justice, but in the future, I will not be so quick to show mercy. Justice applies to all."


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## Legendary Sidekick

Interesting twist for Brienne being "freed from her oath." If only she would see it that way.


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## SeverinR

33 Jokes Only "Game Of Thrones" Fans Will Understand
I don't think #7 is a spoiler.
I like# 20, 32, and of coarse 33. "Crows before hoes."


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## SeverinR

1.Snow Crow had no choice but to take the head.
2.The Queens traitor bagged an imp out of season.
3.The King's mother talks to the sparrows.
4.The king bags his queen.
5.The hypocrit high cleric has his tilly smacked, cries to the King's mother and finds a vacation in the red cells.


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## SeverinR

I think the beheading showed the difference between Stannis and Snow.
Stannis wants everyone to fear him, Jon just has to have people respect him.


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## Legendary Sidekick

That was my favorite scene from the book. And it was so much better in the book, in fact. Jon's manner of execution—doing the job himself—was a lesson learned from Dear Ol' Dad in book/season 1. My description can't do justice, and since this scene has now happened in the show, I feel like it's perfectly legal to throw in a quote from the book.

In a spoiler tag.



Spoiler: one of my favorite scenes from A Dance with Dragons



“If the boy thinks that he can frighten me, he is mistaken,” they heard Lord Janos said. “He would not dare to hang me. Janos Slynt has friends, important friends, you’ll see …” The wind whipped away the rest of his words.

This is wrong, Jon thought. “Stop.”

Emmett turned back, frowning. “My lord?”

“I will not hang him,” said Jon. “Bring him here.”

“Oh, Seven save us,” he heard Bowen Marsh cry out.

The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, “Edd, fetch me a block,” and unsheathed Longclaw.

By the time a suitable chopping block was found, Lord Janos had retreated into the winch cage, but Iron Emmett went in after him and dragged him out. “No,” Slynt cried, as Emmett half-shoved and half-pulled him across the yard. “Unhand me … you cannot … when Tywin Lannister hears of this, you will all rue—”

Emmett kicked his legs out from under him. Dolorous Edd planted a foot on his back to keep him on his knees as Emmett shoved the block beneath his head. “This will go easier if you stay still,” Jon Snow promised him. “Move to avoid the cut, and you will still die, but your dying will be uglier. Stretch out your neck, my lord.” The pale morning sunlight ran up and down his blade as Jon clasped the hilt of the bastard sword with both hands and raised it high. “If you have any last words, now is the time to speak them,” he said, expecting one last curse.

Janos Slynt twisted his neck around to stare up at him. “Please, my lord. Mercy. I’ll … I’ll go, I will, I …”

No, thought Jon. You closed that door. Longclaw descended.

“Can I have his boots?” asked Owen the Oaf, as Janos Slynt’s head went rolling across the muddy ground. “They’re almost new, those boots. Lined with fur.”

Jon glanced back at Stannis. For an instant their eyes met. Then the king nodded and went back inside his tower.”


Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. “A Dance With Dragons.” Bantam Books


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## SeverinR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjJf0WqKK1w

Westeros, Parody of "Let it go"

hmmmm, IS Elsa queen of the White Walkers?

"Let the Winter come....Snow never bothered me anyway."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ypvCv3Tl_g

"Wildlings"  (Heard you were a wildthing.)
Sorry Ygritte, Crows before hoes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e01yNFZY4U
It's a nice day, for a red wedding. (Billy Idol parody, Game of thrones.)

"There is only one God, and what do we say to him?
Not today, George RR Martin."


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## SeverinR

Season 5 seems to be alittle slow so far.
I still like it, but I find I'm doing other things while its on and not rivoted to it like in the past.


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## Legendary Sidekick

That these threads are kinda dead this year means you're not alone.


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## Lunaairis

I wish I could watch it, But I've sworn to watch it with my dad and a Fr- Airis' never break's a promise.


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## SeverinR

Haven't watched this weeks episode, will see it tonight.

Hopeful, it will be better.


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## SeverinR

Seemed better last night. But then again my favorites were on. (Arya and Tyrion.)

One question, did Arya poison the girl or did the girl die from her condition?

I was wondering how Tyrion would get to meet Dragon momma if the slavers got them. But leave it to the half man lord.


Little Finger is going to have to deal with an angry broken dove when he returns.


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## T.Allen.Smith

SeverinR said:


> One question, did Arya poison the girl or did the girl die from her condition?


Arya poisoned her. 



SeverinR said:


> Little Finger is going to have to deal with an angry broken dove when he returns.


Littlefinger knew exactly what was going to happen to Sansa. Has he ever not calculated the realistic outcome?


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## SeverinR

'Game of Thrones': Watch Peter Dinklage Sing Coldplay's GoT Musical

Tyrion singing


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## Legendary Sidekick

Ozzy Man's review for episode 6 is up. I was wondering if he'd be as disappointed as I was in this episode…

[*LINK* - WARNING: Lotso F-Bombs]


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## T.Allen.Smith

I liked the last episode. My favorite of this season, so far.


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## Legendary Sidekick

I'm glad it's working for you. For me, the House of Black and White and Jorah-Tyrion are working. I do honestly think Brienne's plot is a good change, and hopefully, she'll make me appreciate where the Sansa plot is going.



Spoiler: Ramsey's book wife



As far as Sansa's fate goes, I'm _trying_ to justify it being her because Sansa's the girl you watched grow up, and Jeyne Poole is just another unfortunate soul in GRRM's world.

(Apology for book-vs-film comparison here—in the book, Ramsey marries Jeyne Poole, a girl posing as Arya Stark. Sansa never gets into this mess in the book.)

Still, I didn't care for that scene. It was an immersion-breaker for me, because of course it's just Sansa in Jeyne Poole's role. So I was more disappointed than anything else.



The Sand Snakes plot is silly, though. It's like last season when Lady Greyjoy took on Ramsey—major characters clanging swords but none die. I mean, they're fun, but they come off as something like a fan fic where a fan wants to write a What-If-These-Characters-Meet? scenario.

My wife was afraid someone would die, but I just sat back like _meh. They'll all live._ Of course, I also didn't expect a major character to die in Episode 4, so… who knows? I just hope Bronn wasn't fatally poisoned by that spear tip.


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## Mindfire

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Littlefinger knew exactly what was going to happen to Sansa. Has he ever not calculated the realistic outcome?



Showrunners have said that in this particular instance, Littlefinger was ignorant of the situation and didn't plan on Ramsay being a full-blown psycho.


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## Mindfire

Legendary Sidekick said:


> I just hope Bronn wasn't fatally poisoned by that spear tip.



Well, he was only a few days away from retirement.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Mindfire said:


> Showrunners have said that in this particular instance, Littlefinger was ignorant of the situation and didn't plan on Ramsay being a full-blown psycho.


That'd be a massive deviation in an otherwise consistent character.


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## Mindfire

T.Allen.Smith said:


> That'd be a massive deviation in an otherwise consistent character.



Even the best schemers are only as good as their gathered intelligence. And in the show, Ramsay's appetite for cruelty is not well known. Or so the reasoning goes.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Mindfire said:


> Even the best schemers are only as good as their gathered intelligence. And in the show, Ramsay's appetite for cruelty is not well known. Or so the reasoning goes.


Maybe, but I'm skeptical. It seems like everyone knows everything about everyone else when it comes to lords, ladies, & their offspring. 
I'm not buying that Ramsay is the exception, or that Littlefinger is oblivious.


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## Mindfire

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Maybe, but I'm skeptical. It seems like everyone knows everything about everyone else when it comes to lords, ladies, & their offspring.
> I'm not buying that Ramsay is the exception, or that Littlefinger is oblivious.



Well, be that as it may, Word of God has spoken. So it's the official explanation.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Mindfire said:


> Well, be that as it may, Word of God has spoken. So it's the official explanation.


Lol. I suppose time will tell. Maybe.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Well, regardless of how I felt about episode 6's ending, I'm looking forward to episode 7.

I'll FINALLY be watching GoT in HD! My 62" box from 1993 finally died. I was hoping it would last a little longer, but I guess Hannah (age 2.6) understands she's not to charge the new TV like a bull. I just got a 60" 1080p, which was much cheaper than it would've been had I bought it before the 4K TVs were out.

I'm only assuming the 4K thing is new. I still have a crapy flip phone, though, so what do I know about technology?


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## SeverinR

Watched "The gift" last night. (Love HBO on demand)
The gift? Bronn got a gift of life, Sansa got a gift of death, Dragon momma got a gift, category to be determined later, possibly two gifts. Cercei got the gift of 'turn about'. 

Interesting twist Bronn sings for the Sand snakes and it saves his life. Not sure where they are going with it, but they are nice to look at.
Sansa continues to have the men in her life give her dead people mounted on poles or spikes. Guys, please, if in doubt, chocolates or flowers are the way to a woman's heart. Maybe an expensive bauble or jewelry? But, dead people aren't unless your girl is a vampire or demon spawn.

Jon? Did he get a gift?

Sam got a good gift, but was painful to earn. He would have never gotten the gift if Jon didn't give Sam the gift of ghost. Sam got his dagger dipped.

One problem, Jon is going into the north, Ghosts natural habitat, an area with a lot of different dangers, and he leaves his personal companion behind?

I too, find it hard to believe anyone hasn't heard of Ramsey's appetite, he didn't seem to hide it outside of Winterhell. Servants talk, when screams of torture echo in the castles walls, many servants will hear. 

In the side story here,
What will become of the tech starved Legendary sidekick fostering the minotaur's offspring? I might suggest not visiting a china shop in the near future.


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## T.Allen.Smith

You forgot the biggest gift.  

Lady Olenna received a gift of information from Littlefinger. That being, the knowledge of Cersei's affair with her cousin Lancel Lannister, now a servant of the seven.


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## Mindfire

Thrones watchers also received a gift. The gift of sweet, sweet justice.  The fall of the House of Lannister begins now. (Well, technically it began when Joffrey died but whatever.)


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## SeverinR

T.Allen.Smith said:


> You forgot the biggest gift.
> 
> Lady Olenna received a gift of information from Littlefinger. That being, the knowledge of Cersei's affair with her cousin Lancel Lannister, now a servant of the seven.


I remember them talking but didn't catch that. Must have left during that time. That's who it was that got Cersei arrested. People who live in grass houses, shouldn't stow thrones, even more thones made of swords.  



Mindfire said:


> Thrones watchers also received a gift. The gift of sweet, sweet justice.  The fall of the House of Lannister begins now. (Well, technically it began when Joffrey died but whatever.)


They've been falling apart since Joffrey became king, it is snowballing though.

Tommin, alone on the throne. Wife and mother in jail together.  Cersei's words telling him to do nothing are now backfiring.
It will be interesting to see what an unprepared king will do when no one he trusts is there to advise him.
Wife, mother in jail, both Uncles in a foreign country,(one accused of killing his brother and grandfather.)
Wouldn't Lady Olenna be the closest person he could trust?


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## SeverinR

again, a nice in depth post, lost because it took to long and the site logged me out. So annoying.


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## SeverinR

Hard home;
Sansa finds out that her brothers are alive, giving her a reason to survive her hard home.
Arya seems to be fitting in well with her hardhome.
Cercei isn't fairing well in her hardhome...
Tyrion and Dany sipping wine seemed normal. 
John gets a large group to go with him. The rest stay are killed and raised to join the White walkers army. 

IMHO the White walkers appear to be to powerful. Only Dragon glass and valyrian steel will kill one, both are in short supply.
When in battle with the wights, they can instantly call up the dead to rise again. So why wait? As the battle progresses, call up the dead. Very hard to face a dead friend and kill them again. 
I assume there will be another Kryptonite found. Since the white walkers could send the millions of dead up the wall and raise the dead again when they fail. Once past the wall, they simply wade through the people add to their army and move on.
The army that never dies, the army that doesn't eat. Just attacks, dies, rises up again and kills more, to add to their army.

Dragon glass and Valyrian steel don't matter if they can't wade through the mass of dead to get to a walker. So the three dragons are the only hope for the world.  Burn the dead all at once so they won't rise again, and bite or claw the walkers to kill them.
But the dragons are currently immature and untrained, and no one is trying to teach them.

Not sure why the army of undead couldn't just walk on the bottom of the ocean after the boats? They don't breathe. Water can't kill them, because some of the dead were in the water when he raised them.


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## SeverinR

'Game Of Thrones' Editor, Katherine Chappell, Mauled To Death By Lion In Tragic Accident

In other Game of thrones news.


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## SeverinR

https://youtu.be/ZDt3jeXGfDU

When winter comes.
"All Beasts will shudder, be it lion or crow."



"Walls will not hold the winter."


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## SeverinR

Disclaimer: I have not watched last nights show, will watch tonight probably.
I saw a story about it .
"Did Game of Thrones go to far?"
Sansa's rape seems to be small potatoes compared to last nights show.
As far as the story goes, the sacrifice to the fire God is not surprising. But in doing so, I don't believe anyone will be loyal to Stannis.  That he would do that to his own family. 
I've never thought Stannis was a good king, but this sealed it. Much like Reek's mistakes.  

So to answer the question of the news story.
I don't think they went to far. It shows the evil of men, the evil of pursuit of power, and what lengths people will go to achieve it.  Like most characters in GOT, I never thought her character was to be killed off in such a way.
I don't see how Davos will be able to continue serving Stannis. 

The reason people are upset, they killed a handicapped child, that harmed no one. You don't kill the dog and you don't kill an innocent child, even worse a handicapped innocent child.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Last night's show was especially frustrating to a reader. When something is good-different from the book, you enjoy it. When something is bad-different, you're pulled out of the story asking _WTF were they thinking when they wrote this crap? Did HBO just fire all the GoT editors because the show is so wildly successful?_


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## SeverinR

So was the sacrifice not in the book,either? (I heard Sansa's rape wasn't)


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## Mindfire

SeverinR said:


> Disclaimer: I have not watched last nights show, will watch tonight probably.
> I saw a story about it .
> "Did Game of Thrones go to far?"
> Sansa's rape seems to be small potatoes compared to last nights show.
> As far as the story goes, the sacrifice to the fire God is not surprising. But in doing so, I don't believe anyone will be loyal to Stannis.  That he would do that to his own family.
> I've never thought Stannis was a good king, but this sealed it. Much like Reek's mistakes.
> 
> So to answer the question of the news story.
> I don't think they went to far. It shows the evil of men, the evil of pursuit of power, and what lengths people will go to achieve it.  Like most characters in GOT, I never thought her character was to be killed off in such a way.
> I don't see how Davos will be able to continue serving Stannis.
> 
> The reason people are upset, they killed a handicapped child, that harmed no one. You don't kill the dog and you don't kill an innocent child, even worse a handicapped innocent child.



It's become very clear that Stannis's character arc is about his slow and steady progression from being a good, though exacting and cold-hearted man to being truly lost, turning cruel and evil in his relentless pursuit of power. And with with the devil-woman Melisandre stoking his obsession, it's all but guaranteed Stannis will only be a shell of his former self by the time this is all over, if he survives.


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## SeverinR

I'm not liking the changes this season.
They seem to be doing them for the shock value rather then for the story line.
GOT is dark enough without going darker.


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## Legendary Sidekick

SeverinR said:


> So was the sacrifice not in the book,either? (I heard Sansa's rape wasn't)


Sansa and Ramsey never meet in the book. Ramsey marries Jeyne Poole, a girl who poses as Arya Stark. She is abused by her husband as Sansa is, or in other words, Sansa's arc in the show has merged with Jeyne Poole.

I don't know if Princess Shireen will die in book 6 or 7, but if she does die I hope it's not like this… it's really weak storytelling. "So, if I have my daughter die a slow, painful death, then I can move what's left of my army to Winterfell where we'll face the twenty guys who made fools of us plus the rest of Bolton's forces who obviously know we're coming and have prepared defenses from within the advantageous position inside Winterfell's walls. Yes, by all means, burn the little shit."


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## SeverinR

Just watched it.

A King is lost to fire, and a queen is raised by fire.

I don't see any way his troops can follow him. I am not violent, but I would have stuck a blade in him while he watched his daughter burn.
I think the fight arena would have been better, if the sons of Harpy's 
would have her surrounded an the dragon breathes on them all. She walks out of the burning sons. Then still have her fly off.
Can't believe the season is over next week.


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## Legendary Sidekick

I'm not the only one who thought Ramsey's "20 good men" were pranking the enemy.

Ozzy Man: "original prankster Ramsey"


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## BronzeOracle

I hated that scene with the burning.  Stannis asks the question "can't we use leeches?" and Melissandre just says no.  It makes sense that she wants to kill Shireen so she can emotionally isolate and control Stannis, but Stannis and more importantly the audience need a rational reason why.  Gendry gets leeches and Shireen gets burnt alive??  Makes no sense and that makes the horror of a kid screaming on a pyre just plain wrong.

Smacks of Anakin Skywalker's bad turn in Star Wars - too much too fast.

I agree with the sentiments above - which sane soldier is going to want to follow a man who murders his own kid?  I can't imagine how Ser Davos is going to react - except to devote himself to taking Melissandre down.


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## SeverinR

I look at Melissandre as a religious extremist, they will do anything in service to their god.
He was a father who burned his daughter alive.  I see Ser Davos being very conflicted, I can't see him serving Stannis anymore, his final conversation with her, was love. I believe he will go after both Melissandre, but I don't see him walking away from a breathing Stannis. But since this never happened in the book, I don't see Stannis dying by Davos and I don't think Davos character has reached the end either. But they don't seem to care about how the book handles things.

I think HBO is maneuvering to plunge past what was already written and they wanted to deviate in some places that the pseudo writers wanted to explore.  

Anyone know the death count for Arya or Tyrion? (actual kills not asking or telling someone to kill for them.)

Tyrion-5: the guy he killed with a shield, his beloved, and his father. Did he kill any at the battle of blackwater bay? He killed two SOH in the arena didn't he?

Arya-4: The thief that basically impales himself, the guy that took needle from her, the one that had to tell her his name before she added him to the list, the dying girl, 
Did I miss any?


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## SeverinR

Ok, Season finale next week.
Not seeing a lot of acclaim for this season.

Really not much excitement for this season. Many good scenes, many shocking changes from the book, but compared to other seasons it was bland.
I think both Sansa and Shireen's handling has lost Game of thrones some viewers.  A good number or a few, I don't know.
I think by now, most people know that anything can happen.

Recap the highpoints:
1.The massacre at Hardhome
2.Sansa rape wedding
3.Shireen's fire
4.Cersei's arrest
5.Dance of the dragon

Did I miss a high point? Not just interesting scenes but highpoints in the series?
These are not season remembering highpoints.
Also not seeing a good cliff hanger for the finale.

Expecting maybe the battle of the north.
Thinking maybe a turning point in Arya's character.
Cersei's trial?

Is Bran not in this season at all?


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## Legendary Sidekick

Bran is missing this season. So is Theon's sister. (Asha in books, Yara on film?)

I thought the HBO showrunners stepped up their game in Season 4. Joff was dead in episode 2, and there was so much more going on that season. Viper's death was exactly as in the books and the Father's Day special was close enough.

This season was pretty weak between slow build-up and questionable deviations that were badly written. Even the pit battle had way too many dramatic pauses so the main characters wouldn't die. The scene was fun enough that I enjoyed it, but I won't pretend its flaws aren't glaring just because I didn't glare back.


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## Mindfire

SeverinR said:


> Is Bran not in this season at all?



Nope. They said Bran's on hiatus for this season. He'll probably come back next year.


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## Legendary Sidekick

*Love the actor; hate the scene?*

As much as I hated Shireen's death, and I do think it was poorly written, I admire the job the actors did with it. *Here's words from the actor playing Davos.*

I think it's an interesting line of work, having to get into the character and play out the scene as it's written, even if it means you're out of a job or someone you enjoy working with is out.


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## SeverinR

Is this the time period that the writer was planning on doing a 5 yr leap? Or is that next season?

Like I said, I think they lost viewers with Sansa and Shireens's changes, unless they get some excitement and cliff hanger, I think they will lose viewers just because they forgot about it.

"Oh, has Game of thrones returned...I forget what happened last time."

Every season before, it's like, "When is it going to start! I want to see..."


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## SeverinR

I think it's only fair to hear from the crispy kid-o herself.:skull:
Kerry Ingram From Ã¢€˜Game Of ThronesÃ¢€™ Is Healthy And Adorable On Twitter

 She is 16.  She doesn't look it. (My daughter hates to hear that when they say it about her. They asked if she was young enough for a child's price at Golden Corral. "I'm almost 20")

 I think I should probably tell her I was thrown out of a bar for having a fake military ID that said I was 19. And was carded last when I was 32. (aside from Indiana, that cards everyone, state law, they carded a 70 yr old.)

Did Shireen never sing on Game of Thrones? She sung in character on You tube?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuHo1y-VVi8  "It's always summer under the sea"


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## SeverinR

I was pleasantly surprised that they could have so many things to look forward to next season.

Arya blind. (when you are in an assassin guild, you don't get to kill just anyone you want.)
Melisandre arrived at the wall just before John was "killed."  Melisandre has the power from Shireen's sacrifice that she has not used. (The other person that raised the dead didn't have to have a kings blood to do it.)

John killed; they seem to forget the dire wolf when they want too.
Cersei carried off by mountain, 
     I see Cercei doing a "burn them, burn them all!" moment in season 6. Who killed the last person that said that? Who is suppose to kill Cersei?


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## SeverinR

"You know nothing John Snow, but you get the point, over and over again."


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## SeverinR

Season 6, will there be a polar bear?

New director: Jack Bender, "LOST".
Oh and a Miami Vice director...A car chase and drugs?


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## ThinkerX

> Is this the time period that the writer was planning on doing a 5 yr leap? Or is that next season?



I think I can answer that without giving away spoilers...because there are none.

Originally, GRRM planned a five year gap in the WRITTEN series between books 3 and 4 (Seasons 4 and 5 in the TV series, more or less).  Two reasons:

1 - In the books, many of the character are much younger - Jon Snow is something like 13 or 14, and Arya is 10 or 11, while Bran is maybe 8.  He wanted to set things up so the youngsters would have time to mature at their various positions - Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, Faceless Woman, Magician, Queen (in the case of Dany).  

2 - He wanted time for greater developments - rise of a militant church, decline of Lannister authority, slave revolts on the other continent, and what not to happen without appearing rushed.

But what prevented this was something that turned out to be trivial in the books and more sideline than ought else in the series - Dorne.  Plus, while many characters were not doing much, others like Cersei were extremely busy during the gap.  He tried various solutions.  One of the more interesting was a seven chapter prologue, but even that didn't work.

So GRRM did away with the gap.  If events happened unreasonably fast, so be it, and if you have very young characters thinking and acting like adults, well, then deal with it.  

In the series, they took a different approach, and made the younger characters five years older - probably a good thing (imagine 14 year old Sansa with Ramsey).


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## SeverinR

Just tossing this out, (based on the show, not the books)
Shireen was sacrificed, but the power was never used.
Malisandre just returned to the Wall, and has the untapped power.

Arya witnessed a man die and be brought back by the fire priest, and needed no sacrifice to do it. (At least none that we saw)
Also, they said he had been brought back many times by the priest.

So I don't believe Malisandre wouldn't have to use the power from Shireen's death to raise John Snow. But what will she use it for?

The actor that played John Snow said: "I'm not coming back next season." Either he is lying or his character won't be part of the story again until the season after next. Bran was out this season, so it's not unheard of.
Thinking the Hound might skip a season too.


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## MineOwnKing

Did anyone else think it was strange that Sam Tarly is always sweating even when it's like -50?

Is that suppose to be a flaw that we sympathize with? Somebody please give that poor boy a bandanna.


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## SeverinR

Hyperhidrosis?
or a nervous condition? (Probably a secondary character flaw)
No deodorant in those times, probably not to pleasant to be around.


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## MineOwnKing

SeverinR said:


> Hyperhidrosis?
> or a nervous condition? (Probably a secondary character flaw)
> No deodorant in those times, probably not to pleasant to be around.



It's probably summer and he's standing in front of a blue screen with a bear skin cloak on; I would sweat too.

Speaking of cold, what exactly do the northerners eat,..snow?

Only an inexperienced city slicker would imagine there might be enough to eat for an army in those mountains. 

I'd say that's a pretty big hole in the story. 

No food, equals no healthy, armed and muscle bound army.

Even a herd of caribou would soon be decimated.

I hope the next season focuses on the south, I've had enough of pointless meanderings through the snow.

I hate snow, I've had decades of it.

Shoveling snow is an exercise in futility which produces nothing of value.

Mowing grass too. I hate it. Completely takes away from valuable writing time.


----------



## ThinkerX

> Speaking of cold, what exactly do the northerners eat,..snow?
> 
> Only an inexperienced city slicker would imagine there might be enough to eat for an army in those mountains.
> 
> I'd say that's a pretty big hole in the story.
> 
> No food, equals no healthy, armed and muscle bound army.
> 
> Even a herd of caribou would soon be decimated.



Satin came from a farming encampment near the Wall.  According to the books, there are quite a few such.

Warmer portions of Westeros donated food as well as men to the Wall.  At one point in the books, Jon Snow accompanies his Steward on a sort of inventory of the Wall's stores.

Not mentioned in the TV series, but in the books: Winterfell grew lots of veggies in great big greenhouses during the winter months.

Apart from that, I dwell in Alaska.  Certain crops - potatoes, cabbage, a few other things grow very well (tales of cabbages checking in at hundreds of pounds are common enough).  Other veggies do passably well.    Barley is grown almost as far north as Fairbanks, just shy of the Arctic Circle, though the yields are not exactly spectacular.    Folks used to have a crab apple tree on the homestead, sour apples the size of golf balls.


----------



## MineOwnKing

I meant wildlings.

I was being silly.

The scenes they show are of mountain tops.

Nothing but snow on granite. Probably not many cabbages grown on that.

Alaska has fish and periods of warmth.

I live in the cold too. It sucks.

Screw it, I'm moving to Belize to live out my days. 

I can't take it anymore.


----------



## ThinkerX

> I meant wildlings.



From what I saw, the TV series didn't really get it into it that much, but the wildlings were a pretty dispersed and varied bunch, ranging from literal savages to quasi civilized.  

Alaskan / Far North equivalent would be the Athabaskans / Eskimos - semi nomadic hunter gatherers.  Others appeared to engage in agriculture.  Worth noting the series takes place at the onset of winter, after the snow would be 'down for the duration.'



> Screw it, I'm moving to Belize to live out my days.



Looking to perish of heatstroke then.  We had temperatures of 80F+ a few weeks ago.  I thought I was going to melt.  Belize is that plus another 20 - 30 degrees.  Plus snakes.


----------



## MineOwnKing

The yearly average in Belize is only 75F.

There are snakes but I'm not planning on venturing too far from whichever watering hole takes my fancy. 

I'm a water person living in a vast sea of corn fields. I just can't take it anymore.

I've had 40 years of winter. I grew up taking care of sled dogs. In the summer I mow 4 acres of lawn every week. When it snows in the winter, it's a 5 hour task of plowing and shoveling. 

I hate farming too. Too many years stuck in the hay mow. Screw it.

In my opinion, these are all just exercises in futility.

When you mow the grass, it grows back, when you shovel snow, it snows again.

I can't stand to waste my time on things that are not permanent.

Only written words can offer me that.

I want a hut on the beach, with umbrella drinks and bikinis. 

No shovels, no lawn mowers.

Just my pen and the sparkles of light on the waves to invigorate me.


----------



## Manalodia

ThinkerX said:


> I think I can answer that without giving away spoilers...because there are none.
> 
> Originally, GRRM planned a five year gap in the WRITTEN series between books 3 and 4 (Seasons 4 and 5 in the TV series, more or less).  Two reasons:
> 
> 1 - In the books, many of the character are much younger - Jon Snow is something like 13 or 14, and Arya is 10 or 11, while Bran is maybe 8.  He wanted to set things up so the youngsters would have time to mature at their various positions - Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, Faceless Woman, Magician, Queen (in the case of Dany).
> 
> 2 - He wanted time for greater developments - rise of a militant church, decline of Lannister authority, slave revolts on the other continent, and what not to happen without appearing rushed.
> 
> But what prevented this was something that turned out to be trivial in the books and more sideline than ought else in the series - Dorne.  Plus, while many characters were not doing much, others like Cersei were extremely busy during the gap.  He tried various solutions.  One of the more interesting was a seven chapter prologue, but even that didn't work.
> 
> So GRRM did away with the gap.  If events happened unreasonably fast, so be it, and if you have very young characters thinking and acting like adults, well, then deal with it.
> 
> In the series, they took a different approach, and made the younger characters five years older - probably a good thing (imagine 14 year old Sansa with Ramsey).



So it's true then. He's a good storyteller, but horrible writer.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

Manalodia said:


> So it's true then. He's a good storyteller, but horrible writer.


Sure, he's a horrible writer with millions of fans.

You don't achieve a career like GRRM by being horrible at your craft.


----------



## ThinkerX

> Sure, he's a horrible writer with millions of fans.
> 
> You don't achieve a career like GRRM by being horrible at your craft.



At the risk of a thread jack...I have read a fair pile of GRRM's earlier works.  

'Windover' was a collaboration with Wurts, and was a series of novellas combined to make a novel.  Good story, but it always read a little...'flat'...to me.

'Tuf Voyaging' was the same way - a series of novellas first published in Asimov's (or maybe F&SF or Analog, I forget which), later combined into a single novel.  

The 'Dany Sequence' from book 1 also appeared as a separate novella or serial in Asimov's (wedding to the hatching of the dragons).  

He had a couple of longer works (Armageddon Rag being the main one) that tanked big time (and which I suspect were published because of his status as a 'name' author.)

Plus, GRRM had a long career as a screenwriter mixed in with all this.  My understanding is screenplays for 1 hour time slots probably work out to around novella length in the writing world.  And I believe it was the connections he retained in Hollywood that got Game of Thrones made into a TV series more than anything else. 

So, it might be more apt to think of GRRM as a sort of hybrid novelist / screenwriter.  He did comment years ago that he'd never attempted anything on the scale of GOT in his previous career.  Plus, he's a 'panster' - no outlining, which probably accounts for much of his slow progress.


----------



## SeverinR

MineOwnKing said:


> The yearly average in Belize is only 75F.
> 
> There are snakes but I'm not planning on venturing too far from whichever watering hole takes my fancy.
> 
> I'm a water person living in a vast sea of corn fields. I just can't take it anymore.
> 
> I've had 40 years of winter. I grew up taking care of sled dogs. In the summer I mow 4 acres of lawn every week. When it snows in the winter, it's a 5 hour task of plowing and shoveling.
> 
> I hate farming too. Too many years stuck in the hay mow. Screw it.
> 
> In my opinion, these are all just exercises in futility.
> 
> When you mow the grass, it grows back, when you shovel snow, it snows again.
> 
> I can't stand to waste my time on things that are not permanent.
> 
> Only written words can offer me that.
> 
> I want a hut on the beach, with umbrella drinks and bikinis.
> 
> No shovels, no lawn mowers.
> 
> Just my pen and the sparkles of light on the waves to invigorate me.



Sadly, most "tourist" spots don't have the relaxing and natural beach life. So much build up, it's hard or very expensive to find a spot on the beach to live.  The low cost of living is gone also.

No a days, its probably cheaper to buy a deserted tropical island and build what you want then to live amongst the beach life.  The ideal picture of two beach chairs alone on a (clean) private beach is a very costly one.
Reality is, two beach chairs among hundreds of others, where if you don't get up early to claim them, you'd be hard pressed to find them empty.


----------



## SeverinR

Even the president asked about Jon Snow.
To which, the same answer was given. Jon Snow is dead.

"You know nothing Jon Snow."
I believe even the president would be given the same answer.  Snow is dead until the fire god brings him back to life.
Even with winter coming, I do believe Snow will be dormant next season.


----------



## MineOwnKing

SeverinR said:


> Sadly, most "tourist" spots don't have the relaxing and natural beach life. So much build up, it's hard or very expensive to find a spot on the beach to live.  The low cost of living is gone also.
> 
> No a days, its probably cheaper to buy a deserted tropical island and build what you want then to live amongst the beach life.  The ideal picture of two beach chairs alone on a (clean) private beach is a very costly one.
> Reality is, two beach chairs among hundreds of others, where if you don't get up early to claim them, you'd be hard pressed to find them empty.



I'm sure you're right.

However, I've had 43 years of private. I can piss off of my front step all day long and not a soul would spy me save the barn swallows and pheasants.

More people equals more bikinis. 

I can look miles in every direction and never see a person or a vehicle 24/7.

Privacy can be just as taxing as anything else people find annoying.

I guess it wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't covered in snow for 8 months out of the year.

I need to be near water. I don't care where it takes me, as long as it's warm, wet, cheap, bursting with bikinis, boat drinks and BBQ joints that serve rum with a slice of nirvana-enlightenment.


----------



## Manalodia

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Sure, he's a horrible writer with millions of fans.
> 
> You don't achieve a career like GRRM by being horrible at your craft.



Many flies can be attracted to a single turd, yet doesn't make it wonderful. Not to be so mean,
I don't necessarily think many fans make him a good writer. Like I said, he could just be good at telling a story.
Most of the fanbase comes from the show and many will never read his books. They like the story being told, even
some of the actors in the show liked the script and never read his books. A lot of factors go into his success other than
being a good writer; people just love sex, nudity and a dark, dark, grim political drama


----------



## Manalodia

ThinkerX said:


> At the risk of a thread jack...I have read a fair pile of GRRM's earlier works.
> 
> 'Windover' was a collaboration with Wurts, and was a series of novellas combined to make a novel.  Good story, but it always read a little...'flat'...to me.
> 
> 'Tuf Voyaging' was the same way - a series of novellas first published in Asimov's (or maybe F&SF or Analog, I forget which), later combined into a single novel.
> 
> The 'Dany Sequence' from book 1 also appeared as a separate novella or serial in Asimov's (wedding to the hatching of the dragons).
> 
> He had a couple of longer works (Armageddon Rag being the main one) that tanked big time (and which I suspect were published because of his status as a 'name' author.)
> 
> Plus, GRRM had a long career as a screenwriter mixed in with all this.  My understanding is screenplays for 1 hour time slots probably work out to around novella length in the writing world.  And I believe it was the connections he retained in Hollywood that got Game of Thrones made into a TV series more than anything else.
> 
> So, it might be more apt to think of GRRM as a sort of hybrid novelist / screenwriter.  He did comment years ago that he'd never attempted anything on the scale of GOT in his previous career.  Plus, he's a 'panster' - no outlining, which probably accounts for much of his slow progress.



I always wondered why he seemed to take to making his books a show so easily and accept the drastic changes. I guess being a screenwriter did have much to do with it, as I wondered if he actually had been one. I think Steven King makes a better one though.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

GRRM defends D&D (the GoT showrunners) for making changes to his works. He says that with different mediums, it's better to tell the story differently.

While I don't entirely agree that _all_ of D&D's changes were good or better for the screen, I agree with GRRM's premise. An example of a change that was good for the screen would be the pit fight. Having Jorah in the fight was good for the screen, while for the book, it was great to get to know some of the fighters before they killed or got killed.

For the first time in my life, I'm rewriting my own work for a different medium. My "Awesome Warrior" story has some changes in the comic version. For example, in the text version, the party healer is a faith healer who carries a hammer. But in the comic, he's an unarmed monk, and his only function is to heal. My reason for this change is that it's not worth it to show this character armed or fighting, since the focus is only on him while he's healing Addison (MC). Even where Addison hits the monster will be changed, since it's easier to position her where the monster can retaliate without having to move around so much. In text, I expect the reader's imagination keeps people and monsters moving in battle. In a comic, I can't move anyone too far without the art supporting that, or the action will be choppy. I try to choreograph my battles so attacks and counterattacks can happen without a need for several moves in between.

I plan to keep death and survival the same, but making a comic does help me to see why filmmakers make changes when basing a film on a novel.

(I still won't forgive _Jurassic Park_ for reversing almost every character's death/survival, though.)


----------



## SeverinR

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awards_and_nominations_received_by_Game_of_Thrones
Several wins for stunts and visual effects.

Maisie Williams won for best performance by a young actress.

I think next year, both Arya and Bran could have a good season to win awards with. (Handicapped children triumphing over adversity has good possibilities of awards if they can live up to the scene.)

Also Game of Thrones is nominated for 24 Emmy awards. (Can't find what category they are in. I think Cersei is up for one. (a walk to remember?)  I bet a lot of them will be for stunts and visual effects.
Tyrion-Not thinking he had a good season to show off his greatness.
Dany-maybe, many dramatic scenes for her.
Snow-not seeing, memorable award winning scenes this season.
Arya-maybe, can't think of one great one. 

I'm thinking the awards will be for spectacular battle scenes, make up and graphic effects.


----------



## Manalodia

I don't mean to say all the changes were bad, some may work better for TV rather than in a novel; however, D&D use shock value to keep up the hype of the show. If not some horrid death, it will be rape of some fashion or bountiful nudity. These were in the books, but had a purpose behind them, but the way the show has presented most of it is distorted and vastly immature to the point that it's grim atmosphere becomes childish. It's HBO, I understand they have an image to live up to, but the fact that Martin finds it okay is sad to me. I personally think his new celebrity is taking away what creativity he had.


----------



## Manalodia

You do realize that awards shows are very political in nature and have very little to do with actual talent? It's a show with a huge following, so why would it not gain awards? It has the look and feel of a show that would have them in this current day and age. If Nikki Minage, Miley Cyrus, Lady Gaga and sooo many other "talented" artists can win awards, then my intuition tells me earning such awards has more to do with other elements in the background. 

I don't watch TV in the first place, but what I have seen now and then which are considered popular shows are commonly devoid of any morality. If that is what people want to see, then no wonder we have the society we do.


----------



## MineOwnKing

I have to disagree with Manalodia.

Personally I welcome the explicit nature of modern entertainment.

I think of GoT as a refreshing leap into a new media age, full of the potential for great things.

I think the nudity especially is long over due. 

I love my wife, and I want to see her naked as much as possible. 

Wanting to see women naked is a normal thing and I don't consider it shocking. 

If I buy a new car, I want it to have air conditioning. If I watch a new sword and sorcery show or movie, I want it to have all the cool things that I love about fantasy, including nudity and violence.

Thanks to great pioneers like Howard Stern, we have finally loosened the chains of censorship.

I also think that Nikki Minaj is very talented and works hard at what she does. When I listen to her sing or watch her videos I am transported to a fantasy. 

I can only ever hope that my writing has the ability to transport peoples' minds into entertaining escapism as well as the Starships video.


----------



## Manalodia

You are welcome to disagree, but at the same time show how you embrace what destroys the youth. Everything has been sexualized for decades; it is far from something new.  Of course we are not Europe with nudity on prime-time TV, but the ratings systems have lowered enough that even bare breasts are acceptable for young teens. How many teen pregnancies do we have? How young does sexual experimentation start? Too young if you look at the research. Most times it first occurs between siblings and the statistics for that are far higher numbers than most will admit, especially since the numbers are modest when factoring in the amount of pornographic sites containing incest. How does that relate? Children left to their own devises in these broken homes are the highest chances of these forms of sexual assault or molestation (depending on age).

Children are being raised by the TV or cell-phones this generation because parents cannot afford to stay home and raise them. Public education is teaching them WHAT to think, not HOW to think. We have a steadily declining  education ranking in all fields, yet youth participation in the social-media market is the highest it has ever been. Sex sells to a base mind, but only the mature can appreciate a naked body without having to see it every given moment. Maturity is knowing and respecting something, not ogling and fantasizing like a hormone-crazed boy.

I'm sure you love your wife, but the first step for all affairs is looking, and that leads to something else. Not every man has enough control to refine them to thoughts before they become fantasy and eventually something acted upon. To a woman, pornography or even thinking of another woman in a sexual way is infidelity of the emotional/mental kind and damages trust.

Howard Stern is a pioneer? O_O Well, that says a lot...

I will be blunt and say you have no taste in considering Nikki Minaj talented. She does not write her own material, nor her shallow routines. She is a corporate tool that does what she is told, from what to sing and how to look. How can you enjoy the degradation of another human being to be nothing more than eye-candy and tool for corporate agenda? 

Look beneath the surface of things to truly see the world for what it is; I would think fantasy above all else would help an individual understand the concept of "behind the veil".

Research social engineering before embracing social media. TV, as the man that created it said, was not for entertainment, rather a means to make money from the consumer and manipulate through various modes of mind-control to keep the consumer watching, programmed in what they should buy, what they hear and believe. I think anyone can agree to that with even a slight background in psychology and how media works.


----------



## MineOwnKing

_You are welcome to disagree,_

You do not have the authority to grant me permission to disagree, I disagree out of my own accord. 

_you embrace what destroys the youth._ 

This statement is an attack on my character that is unfounded. Not only is it slander against me, but it is an erroneous statement. There is never one definitive thing that can be blamed for the individual plights of society. Your statement blurs truth with opinion and unverified assumption.

_Everything has been sexualized for decades_

There is always going to be an element of human nature in what we as a society do publicly. However I remember clearly many decades of censorship that coddled to the 20th century's discretionary remnants of the Victorian age. Sexualized is not a dirty word. You are using it disparagingly as if it were a scapegoat we should be ashamed of. 

_the ratings systems have lowered enough that even bare breasts are acceptable for young teens_. 

This statement reads for me to believe that you identify a cause and effect between self-discovery and morality. So you believe teenagers are not mature enough to understand and explore desire? I think that educating teens about their natural needs leads to better choices, including the choice to use protection. 

_Most times it first occurs between siblings _

What? Please show me the verified numbers. I'm dying to know about this hoard of teenagers exposed to nudity that then go directly to incest as a result of it. Of course I must assume that because I do not support censorship, that you are attacking me for being directly responsible for incest. 

_Children are being raised by the TV or cell-phones this generation because parents cannot afford to stay home and raise them._

This statement is a broad generalization, the kind of statement used in propaganda. There are also many working parents that do a fantastic job of raising their children and they also have televisions and cell phones. I am one of them. 

_Public education is teaching them WHAT to think, not HOW to think_

The education system varies state by state. I happen to live in a state where the public schools are excellent. My mother and grandmother where both teachers. We take pride in our schools and do not need to send our kid's to private school. Maybe you should move.

_yet youth participation in the social-media market is the highest it has ever been_.

That's because there has never been a social-media market before that they could connect to. There is always going to be a boom in the beginning. Like the pendulum of a clock it will balance out through time and generations. 

_Sex sells to a base mind_

Another attack on my character cleverly disguised as social commentary. Sex sells to anyone with a heartbeat. We cannot deny who we are unless we embrace repression. Do you want to recreate the past when repressed house wives self-medicate to get off and husbands keel over at 55 from liver failure?

To deny sex is to deny personal freedom. Why live within a lie? 

_but only the mature can appreciate a naked body without having to see it every given moment_

Another personal attack implying that I am not mature. What I look at and when, does not determine how to weigh my worth. Only the people closest to me have the right to judge me. I am an individual not a statistic. 

_not ogling and fantasizing like a hormone-crazed boy._

Another personal attack. Apparently you do not have to be impartial to be a moderator. Censorship is the tool of fascism, which leads to divisions in society which in extreme cases leads to genocide. I enjoy looking at women, but least I'm not a Nazi.

Shall I continue with the personal attack you made on my taste as well?

Is this the fox network? I thought we were all pioneers in literature. Where is the camaraderie?


----------



## Mindfire

Duuuude! Don't you know the corporate tools are out to control your mind? Wake up sheeple! You're all, like, brainwashed puppets of the media-industrial complex or somethin'. You know what I'm sayin'? Don't conform to the system, maaaaaan.


----------



## ThinkerX

Oh well, I might as well jump in here...

Back when I had television (reception) I would catch an occasional snippet of Leno on the Tonight Show.  At one point, he was asked why nude beaches were far more common in Europe than in the US.  His response was along the lines of:  'its cultural.  The US was founded by people fleeing Europe at the time of the Inquisition because they believed the Inquisition was not strict enough.'  Hmmm...A group of zealots using torture and death to suppress dissent was 'not strict enough?'

From my own reading...one of the really big things that most (religious) cults of the destructive variety will do is effectively criminalize sex - and anything sexual - except under highly limited conditions.  Which automatically leads to 'issues.'   We see this among preachers and politicians on a regular basis:  one or another such will vehemently denounce homosexuality or promiscuity...then they get outed for the very things they condemn.  But the underlying morals are now so deeply ingrained into US society that questioning them is difficult.  

Many of todays movies and written literature feature people getting killed, or killing each other in spectacular and gruesome ways.  True even with many of the stories on this site.  But the vast majority of people will never be put in a kill or be killed situation.  Yet such fare is acceptable even for the preteen set.

Yet, even so much as a bared female breast or nude shot results in a public outcry.  This despite the fact that while most people will never kill another human, they are highly likely to have sex.  A remnant of the religious cultic mentality kicking in, perhaps.

That said, as somebody who has read a fair number of GRRM's earlier works...he changed things with GOT.  His earlier stories...maybe a little bit of swearing or nudity...but not much.  With GOT, he made the deliberate decision to ramp up both the sex and the swear words, as a means of setting tone.  The people behind the show went and ramped things up even further, adding quite a few sex scenes not in the books.


----------



## Mindfire

ThinkerX said:


> Back when I had television (reception) I would catch an occasional snippet of Leno on the Tonight Show.  At one point, he was asked why nude beaches were far more common in Europe than in the US.  His response was along the lines of:  'its cultural.  The US was founded by people fleeing Europe at the time of the Inquisition because they believed the Inquisition was not strict enough.'  Hmmm...A group of zealots using torture and death to suppress dissent was 'not strict enough?



That is... not really accurate.


----------



## ThinkerX

> That is... not really accurate.



Which one?  My Leno paraphrase or the Inquisition using torture and death to keep people in line?  Or people fleeing Europe for the right to be really strict religious types?


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

I think he meant that it sounded like you thought the puritan immigrants to the new world were fleeing the Spanish inquisition, when they were fleeing the Church of England.


----------



## Mindfire

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I think he meant that it sounded like you thought the puritan immigrants to the new world were fleeing the Spanish inquisition, when they were fleeing the Church of England.



Exactly. Also, the puritans weren't fleeing because they thought the church wasn't persecuting people hard enough. They fled because, more or less, _they_ were the ones being persecuted. They weren't leaving Europe so they'd have the right to be strict. What does that even mean?


----------



## ThinkerX

Getting further off topic than we were...

...but a lot of the early English/European colonists belonged to some very...controlling...religious groups.  (aka 'Puritans')

These...cultists...imposed a rigid and arguably extreme...standard of morality, for want of a better term, that persists to the current day.

Used to be much more...prevalent...

Ever read up on the old line 'blue laws,' which mandated church attendance and forbade pretty much any work on Sundays?


----------



## Mindfire

You can't label the Puritans a cult by any reasonably fair standard. I mean, really. And their codes of conduct only seem rigid and extreme from a modern, especially secular perspective. They were not exactly "extreme" by the standards of the time, just out of step with the Church of England. Nowadays the common view is to think of one's religious life and one's public life as very separate things, but it wasn't always so. The Puritans were a society in which religion was as much a matter of public discourse and conduct as private faith. Their laws and customs are an expression of that.

Are you referring to any specific standards of morality that seem "controlling", "rigid", and "extreme" to you?


----------



## X Equestris

ThinkerX said:


> Getting further off topic than we were...
> 
> ...but a lot of the early English/European colonists belonged to some very...controlling...religious groups.  (aka 'Puritans')
> 
> These...cultists...imposed a rigid and arguably extreme...standard of morality, for want of a better term, that persists to the current day.
> 
> Used to be much more...prevalent...
> 
> Ever read up on the old line 'blue laws,' which mandated church attendance and forbade pretty much any work on Sundays?



And a lot of the colonists, especially those outside of New England, didn't come to the Americas because of anything to do with their religion.  I think it's a mistake to blame America's general conservativeness towards sex on the Puritans alone.  And to tie this back to the actual topic, Game of Thrones, a lot of the criticism I see of the show's handling of sex and sex related issues comes more from the sex-negative wing of feminism than the religious right or something like that.


----------



## ThinkerX

> Are you referring to any specific standards of morality that seem "controlling", "rigid", and "extreme" to you?



We are getting too far off topic here.  There are reasons I do not normally participate in such threads anymore.  But, do what I used to do back in my religious debating days - Google 'Liftons 8 point criteria' and compare those points against the religious group of your choice.

You might also wish to Google 'blue laws' while you are at it.


----------



## Mindfire

ThinkerX said:


> We are getting too far off topic here.  There are reasons I do not normally participate in such threads anymore.  But, do what I used to do back in my religious debating days - Google 'Liftons 8 point criteria' and compare those points against the religious group of your choice.
> 
> You might also wish to Google 'blue laws' while you are at it.



I know what the "blue laws" are. The point I'm making is that you're judging them from a modern secular viewpoint and giving no consideration to temporal or cultural context. In a society where everyone's already going to church and abstaining from work on Sunday, having a law regarding such isn't really a big deal. It would be as normal to them as a law against stealing. And I'm not sure anyone in the religious "mainstream" of the time would particularly object to such laws either. Religious plurality wasn't so much a thing back then.

Conjecture: Your anti-religious animus is causing you to view the matter through a biased lens.


----------



## ThinkerX

I am many things.  'Anti-religious' is not one of them.


----------



## Mindfire

Eh. It was only conjecture. Typically it's overzealous atheists who are eager to label everything a cult.


----------



## ThinkerX

Most of the time I was at the religious debate sites, my stance was (and remains):

'Agnostic with a tendency towards theism'

aka...

'there may be a God, but pretty much all religions fail dramatically in describing Gods, nature, intent, and abilities'

or

'too many unknowns to be making definitive statements'

On the other hand, regardless of the belief system from which they originate, psychologically destructive religious groups share similar traits and at least attempt to do similar things if the opportunity presents.  (as part of a personal project, I made a sort of...religious history, focusing on primary texts, comparisons of beliefs, and...hmm...'cultic mentality.'  700 single spaced pages when I printed it out.)


----------



## Mindfire

ThinkerX said:


> On the other hand, regardless of the belief system from which they originate, psychologically destructive religious groups share similar traits and at least attempt to do similar things if the opportunity presents.  (as part of a personal project, I made a sort of...religious history, focusing on primary texts, comparisons of beliefs, and...hmm...'cultic mentality.'  700 single spaced pages when I printed it out.)



Widen your net and you'll find this is not a trait unique to religious groups. It can happen with just about any human institution, including- and especially- secular totalitarian regimes.


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## ThinkerX

> Widen your net and you'll find this is not a trait unique to religious groups. It can happen with just about any human institution, including- and especially- secular totalitarian regimes.



Oh yes.  Lifton's criteria includes political and other groups.


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## Mindfire

ThinkerX said:


> Oh yes.  Lifton's criteria includes political and other groups.




Ahem. So how bout that grisly murder in Game of Thrones Season 5, eh?


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## ThinkerX

As of yet, I have seen only short You-Tube clips of season 5.  Which grisly murder are you referring to?  There appear to quite a few.

I am wondering if a giant fleet of ticked off Iron Born drop anchor off Mereen next season, though.  

And I really expected Stanis to last long enough to sack the Twins and wipe out most of the Frey's.


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## T.Allen.Smith

ThinkerX said:


> I am wondering if a giant fleet of ticked off Iron Born drop anchor off Mereen next season, though.


I'm so looking forward to that. Victarion is a personal favorite.


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## ThinkerX

Good a place as any, I suppose:

Ã¢â‚¬ËœGame of ThronesÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ Likely to End After Season 8, Says HBO Chief



> "Obviously we're shooting season six now, hopefully discussing seven," Lombardo said Thursday at the Television Critics Association summer press tour. He indicated that the final word on when to end the series will rest with showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss. "I think their feeling is we're looking at two more seasons after six. I'm hoping they'll change their minds, but that's what we're looking at right now."
> 
> Season 5 of "Game of Thrones ended in June. The show is nominated for eight Primetime Emmy awards, including best drama series. Asked whether the network would be open to a prequel, Lombardo again deferred to Benioff and Weiss.
> 
> "I'm open to anything Dan and David would want to do [with Game of Thrones],: ha said, adding, "but no conversations yet."
> 
> Asked to chime in on whether fan-favorite character Jon Snow is dead, as he appeared to be at the end of last season, Lombardo echoed the show's producers, saying, "Dead is dead is dead. He be dead. Yes. Everything I've seen, heard and read, he is dead."



Sounds about right.


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## Mindfire

NO. NO. NO. End it at seven. What happened to seven kingdoms, seven books, seven seasons? Seven is such a perfect number to stop at! Why would you- ARRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!! QUIT MESSING WITH MY OCD DANGIT!!!


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## Manalodia

Apparently Jon Snow is really dead from what I've read. The show is a pooper. Wasn't he supposed to die for a little in the books or die at the end because he was, in fact the "song of ice and fire" being from both bloodlines? Might be speculation from his book readers, but that really sucks if the show is taking that course (and possibly the books themselves).

I would like to add onto the "blue laws" as I think that is pretty relevant now.

Even though Christian, the Christian churches are quite destitute in following the tenants of the faith. They are more secular than anything and the Bible is not regarded as the basis of what they stand for. A very small few actually practice according the way Jesus and the apostles, while they lived and a little after, instructed. I don't think anyone can argue that politics implanted itself and divided it even more.
If anyone has watched conservative news or read up religious activities, the pope has actually said America NEEDS to officially mandate Sunday observance as a time for families to be together. A female politician had said the same and of course mainstream Christianity agrees. Sounds good for them, no? Well, to me, it's not.

History dictates otherwise (and I will leave out biblical prophecy pointing to the same thing). There are other faiths and Christian groups that do not worship on the "venerable day of the sun". That is sun worship not at first forced on Christians and Jews by Constantine since he was a worshiper of Mithraism. There is no text supporting the holy day being moved by Christ from the seventh day to the first. The Roman Church says it did it as a sign of its own power and the Protestants observing it unwittingly acknowledge that power in practice.

There are those that are not religious that will not take kindly to being forced to attend church on Sunday. What has happened each time a religious group has come to close to power, especially when combined or enforced by the secular powers? Inquisition from both Catholic and Protestants, abuse of authority, doctrine created to rob the people, wars. These are not the fruits of faith in general, these are prime opportunities for selfish human nature to manifest themselves. We see the same thing happen when governments form and we in the US can use our own for an example. It's entirely corrupt and becoming fascist.

Pope Francis is well received by even secular perspective for his approach to homosexuality (though not fully supportive) and other views, but it is his progress in politics and religious world that concerns me. He has made great strides in both; appearing at the UN multiple times, meeting with world leaders, scheduled to appear before Congress for the first time in history as well as an ecumenical meeting in September, bringing together the world religions on peace and unity.

Again, sounds wonderful accept the old saying, "Rome never changes" pops in my head. That same institution has not given up any of the doctrine that led it to become the oppressive power it was for over 1200 years. State and religion do not mix in any regard from the examples history has shown us. The mainstream Protestant churches want to rejoin the RCC and putting aside doctrine issues, that makes two political groups one in that regard. With America in its weakest state in government and (IMO) moral areas, what prime opportunity would this be to pass up for a group that has always sought control (both even from the time of England under Elizabeth).

The blue laws are still on the books for a reason and history repeats itself. Positives were always put forth by Mao, Hitler and other dictators before the fruits of their work were apparent. We are moving closer to a religious-political governance. As I said in the beginning, my beliefs pointed to these things happening in this time, but just looking at the past and what led up to each dark time in human history, we are at the fringe of this terrible repetition.

I think fantasy has a lot to do with my being observant of such things. I have an imagination, yes, but I always wanted to know where these stories took their basis from. Many were metaphors for historical events or just human nature in general and its sad pattern. Everything has truth to it and if we are asked will we too in our time fall into such a pattern when people are more herded than free-thinking, what course are we headed for?


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## SeverinR

"Melisandre, Do you want (re)build a Snow-man? He don't have to be a Crow-man. He can be a No(ble) man."


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## teacup

I still think Jon will be back. I think everyone on the show saying he's dead are lying or actually telling the truth that he is dead right now, but leaving out that he comes back.


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## Mindfire

Manalodia said:


> *snip*


Omg, are you Adventist? I ask because I am, and what you're talking about sounds very familiar.

As for Jon Snow, I'm thinking Melisandre will bring him back somehow. Her arrival at Castle Black at the end of the season was very... convenient.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Mindfire said:


> NO. NO. NO. End it at seven. What happened to seven kingdoms, seven books, seven seasons? Seven is such a perfect number to stop at! Why would you- ARRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!! QUIT MESSING WITH MY OCD DANGIT!!!


"7's the key number here. Think about it. 7-Elevens. 7 dwarves. 7, man, that's the number. 7 chipmunks twirlin' on a branch, eatin' lots of sunflowers on my uncle's ranch. You know that old children's tale from the sea. It's like you're dreamin' about Gorgonzola cheese when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office. 'Cause you're ****in' fired!"
[SUB]~The Hitchhiker (from _There's Something About Mary)_[/SUB]


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## Mindfire

Legendary Sidekick said:


> "7's the key number here. Think about it. 7-Elevens. 7 dwarves. 7, man, that's the number. 7 chipmunks twirlin' on a branch, eatin' lots of sunflowers on my uncle's ranch. You know that old children's tale from the sea. It's like you're dreamin' about Gorgonzola cheese when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office. 'Cause you're ****in' fired!"
> [SUB]~The Hitchhiker (from _There's Something About Mary)_[/SUB]




Ummmmmmmm...


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## X Equestris

teacup said:


> I still think Jon will be back. I think everyone on the show saying he's dead are lying or actually telling the truth that he is dead right now, but leaving out that he comes back.



I think the latter is the case.  He's dead right now.  Beric Dondarrion was also dead, multiple times, until Thoros brought him back to life.  And the fact that the show has Melisandre returning to the Wall before the season's end is rather suspicious, especially considering how she never left the Wall in the books.  That seems to indicate to me that she has an important role to play at the Wall, quite likely resurrecting Jon.


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## T.Allen.Smith

...and Thoros of Myrr & Melisandre both serve Rallos, the god of light. 

Half of the purpose behind Baeric & Thoros is foreshadowing. The rest of the answer lies in the Night's Watch oath.


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## SeverinR

Game of thrones sets record number of Emmy wins at 12.
I think they are way up there in nominations.

Cinematically this was a great year, the story line was a bit slow.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Yeah, I could see season 4 making big wins, but this season was… well, it did have its best moments in episodes 8-10. That may have helped.


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## SeverinR

Thinking of doing Tywin Lannister costume post father's day.
Where was he shot? (T.V, I believe in the book he is shot just above the groin.)

The video is dark(and full of terrors) so it's hard to see on the computer. Might have to watch on tv.

I would change it to his (purple) wedding tunic place bolts in the right place and hang a "Happy father's day" card from the neck.  [I have been asked to go to Comic con next year. So I need to start soon.]
Was thinking of doing a white walker, but the prosthetics would be very demanding.

https://pmcdeadline2.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/twin-lannister.jpg?w=446&h=299&crop=1

From this pic, it looks like gut shot center, upper left chest for second. (Assuming first shot was slow fatal and second hit the lung and he died quickly.)


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## Stephyn Blackwood

Just want to raise a little point here;




Spoiler: Spoilers for the last episode though everyone's probably seen it by now :)



Would just like to raise the point that Stannis is most-likely not dead. (Maybe that's just me being a Stannis the Mannis fan-boy in denial) But when has the show ever been known to shy away from showing the death of characters? Why did they not show Brienne slashing his throat/stabbing him the chest/taking off his head? Because she didn't kill him. 

Want to know *how* I came to the conclusion? Stannis' final words to her were: "Go on, do your duty."
What is Brienne's duty? It's to find and protect Sansa is it not? And Brienne, by messing about with killing Stannis in the woods is wasting valuable time that could be used to save Sansa. 
So I don't think that Stannis is actually dead. Defeated, maybe. Demoralised, probably. But dead? Nope.

The theory is not originally mine, it was taken from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks9VeB5vI70


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## SeverinR

Emilia Clarke is Esquire's 'Sexiest Woman Alive' - CNN.com

Dragon momma is sexiest woman alive.


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## Mindfire

Stephyn Blackwood said:


> Just want to raise a little point here;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Spoilers for the last episode though everyone's probably seen it by now :)
> 
> 
> 
> Would just like to raise the point that Stannis is most-likely not dead. (Maybe that's just me being a Stannis the Mannis fan-boy in denial) But when has the show ever been known to shy away from showing the death of characters? Why did they not show Brienne slashing his throat/stabbing him the chest/taking off his head? Because she didn't kill him.
> 
> Want to know *how* I came to the conclusion? Stannis' final words to her were: "Go on, do your duty."
> What is Brienne's duty? It's to find and protect Sansa is it not? And Brienne, by messing about with killing Stannis in the woods is wasting valuable time that could be used to save Sansa.
> So I don't think that Stannis is actually dead. Defeated, maybe. Demoralised, probably. But dead? Nope.
> 
> The theory is not originally mine, it was taken from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks9VeB5vI70





Spoiler



Nope. The show's creators confirmed that Stannis is indeed dead. They just didn't show him being decapitated because they thought it was "unnecessary" or "excessive" or something.


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## SeverinR

Stephyn Blackwood said:


> Just want to raise a little point here;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Spoilers for the last episode though everyone's probably seen it by now :)
> 
> 
> 
> Would just like to raise the point that Stannis is most-likely not dead. (Maybe that's just me being a Stannis the Mannis fan-boy in denial) But when has the show ever been known to shy away from showing the death of characters? Why did they not show Brienne slashing his throat/stabbing him the chest/taking off his head? Because she didn't kill him.
> 
> Want to know *how* I came to the conclusion? Stannis' final words to her were: "Go on, do your duty."
> What is Brienne's duty? It's to find and protect Sansa is it not? And Brienne, by messing about with killing Stannis in the woods is wasting valuable time that could be used to save Sansa.
> So I don't think that Stannis is actually dead. Defeated, maybe. Demoralised, probably. But dead? Nope.
> 
> The theory is not originally mine, it was taken from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks9VeB5vI70



Brienne's first duty was to protect her King, once dead, she must avenge his death. Sansa and Arya was a promise later to their mother, who happened to see Brie's first duty failure, her king slayed by a demon that looked like Stannis.

I believe John coming back to life is a lot more likely then fry-baby Stannis is still alive. (His fire witch has the power of a sacrificed Baratheon to use on someone or something.) If you notice, all the official word is "John Snow is dead." I don't believe anyone doubts Snow is dead, having been stabbed by most of the Crows and left to bleed.


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## SeverinR

[video=youtube_share;gywGBuMUiI4]https://youtu.be/gywGBuMUiI4[/video]


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