# Limiting the Numer of Elements for Magic?



## Amanita (Apr 20, 2011)

Well, you probably know that I'm using a magical system based on the chemical elements. 
Now I'm wondering however, if it would be sensible to limit the number of availabe elements. The radioactive ones are off anyway but even without them I have 82 different versions of magic and no one can keep track of that. 
My important characters have so far all ended up with Sodium, Potassium, Calcium, Iron, Mercury, Silver, Carbon, Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Arsenic, Oxygen, Sulfur, Fluorine, Chlorine, Neon, Argon and Xenon.
Especially the rarer transition metals are difficult. I don't know nearly enough about them to give them all distinct properties and most readers wouldn't even know the names. Keeping all of the transition metals out would solve this problem but it would also make Iron, Mercury and Silver impossible which I'm not really happy with. On the other hand, the problem of Gold and Silver getting worthless due to the magic would be solved. 
My second idea would be to restrict myself to elements present in the human body, this would keep all the noble gases out however, and I don't really want that either.

My current approach is to just give better-known elements to the characters and ignore the presence of the others.

What are your thoughts? Or do you have any ideas on deciding which elements to use?


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## myrddin173 (Apr 20, 2011)

You might want to limit to just the elements that exist in pure form in nature.


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## Ravana (Apr 20, 2011)

I can't give much help here, since I can't see doing things the way you are. (Which is a limit on my imagination, and says nothing about your approach.) The most obvious constraint would be to limit yourself to those chemical elements that were recognized in the pre-scientific world… but that would take out the noble gases, in fact all gases. 

"Elements that exist in pure form in nature" would be more constraining still (though it would allow the noble gases): very few elements occur in uncombined forms naturally… even many of the elements known to alchemy needed to be extracted from combined forms. The only ones I'm certain occur _at all_ in "pure" form are copper, silver, gold, lead and mercury (from the alchemical list… all occur in compounds as well, copper and lead more often than not), plus carbon (as graphite or diamond), nitrogen, oxygen, and the noble gases. There might be others, but I'd have to check. 

I think you can safely ignore the rare earths, in any event. Try the Wikipedia article "Abundance of elements in Earth's crust": you might just declare a cutoff point once they get to be too uncommon. (Though note that gold, silver, and mercury, at least will almost certainly be below whatever cutoff you choose–the reason they were recognized in ancient times is because they _do_ occur uncombined–while a couple surprises, such as strontium, will likely be above it. Then again, it's your world: perhaps these elements don't occur at all. It's highly unlikely to affect much if you leave out, say, rubidium or ruthenium.)

Oh: and leaving off everything above lead doesn't automatically eliminate radioactive elements–most elements have at least one radioactive isotope. Again, this can be ignored if you want; just mentioning it.


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## Amanita (Apr 21, 2011)

Thank you for your answers so far.
Only using the elements that occur in pure form in nature wouldn’t work though because I definitely need the elements contained in salt for the story to which this doesn’t apply of course.

The abundance of the elements in the earth crust might be something to consider, I think I’ll might take a look at what’s coming out of that. 



> Oh: and leaving off everything above lead doesn't automatically eliminate radioactive elements—most elements have at least one radioactive isotope.


Yes, I know that but for the others the non-radioactive isotopes are more common and it won’t have that much of an effect that they can’t manipulate the radioactive. Even though I’m not sure about Bismuth which always seems to be extremely slightly radioactive. I don’t have it in there yet, however. I actually considered keeping all radioactive elements out of my world in the beginning but I probably won’t do that anymore because it has too many consequences I probably  wouldn’t be able to find out about all of them. They probably won’t count radioactive elements as elements however, because they don’t stay the same.

In the earliest time of my world people actually used to link the classical elements in two of the important cultures, often ending up with people of the same element being considered users of two different ones, this often happend to oxygen magicians for example, while another culture divided them into "metal" and "fire" not recognising any elemental gifts that had nothing to do with either. 
The "classical elements-culture" later on added a few things, most of them also known to real-world alchemists till they found out about the real elements, at an earlier stage of scientific advancement compared to the real world. 

But maybe I'll have to find some story-intern way of limiting the elements after all, or I keep on doing what I've been doing and just don't mention the rarer ones too often. There is a rule that someone can only develope powers over an element they've been close to before. If this can't happen, they're no gifts for this element.


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## Ravana (Apr 22, 2011)

Amanita said:


> They probably won't count radioactive elements as elements however, because they don't stay the same..



Or perhaps people linked to the radioactive ones could draw power more quickly/easily, for just that reason… but would also face progressive debilitating side-effects (an equivalent of "black" magic for your setting)? 

Bismuth has no stable isotopes, but the half-life of its most stable isotope is several times the present age of the universe, so it hardly matters. There are other isotopes that have long half-lives, though: U-235 is 700M years, U-238 around 4.5G years, for instance. So excluding them on that rationale alone may not work very well. I'd be more inclined to say "I didn't use them because I didn't feel like talking about them. There may be a mage somewhere in the world that can use this… keep reading the sequels to find out."


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## Amanita (Apr 24, 2011)

Thank you for your thoughts. 


> An equivalent of "black" magic for your setting?


This isn't really possible because people can't choose their elements. At least, it's not a conscious choice. But with the elements that have radioactive and non-radioactive natural isotopes it might work. 



> There may be a mage somewhere in the world that can use this… keep reading the sequels to find out.


I think I should make a decision one way or the other and make clear what an Uranium magician can do, if they exist. Otherwise potential readers will wonder why they don't interfer with the storys' events. 
I've decided against people with radioactive elements in the beginning, because I wanted to stay clear of the issues surrounding nuclear weapons and power. And I didn't want to give anyone the power to destroy the entire world. Or I'll have to find a very good reason why the Uranium magicians are so much more reasonable than those commanding Chlorine or Fluorine or Phosphorus. (Elemental magic can have adverse effects on people's reason, especially if used for fighting.) One reasonable reason might be, that the continent is small enough for everyone to be affected by radiation, not just the target-country and its neighbours. And nuclear power stations could be much safer with Uranium magicians in charge...
Yes well, but I don't wan to. Having everyone forming a link with a radioactive element die from it, is a cheap way out as well, isn't it?


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## Fnord (Apr 24, 2011)

That is quite an undertaking; it sounds like an interesting approach.  I like Ravana's response.  Without knowing the details of the type of story/setting you are writing (and that's because I'm new here and haven't acquainted myself to everyone yet) , I think the idea of restricting to elements that were more well-known in medieval settings might be a good framework to approach it.  

I suppose the other thing I'd ask is what kind of story elements are you shooting for and build it around that.  Having 82 different magical "systems" or power sources definitely sounds burdensome and might "drown" this approach in the "noise" of its breadth.  I think it's a cool idea, but probably needs to be honed down somehow.  You mentioned that the chemical composition of salt is important to the story; does the system of magic therefore mean that new systems are created when elements are made into compounds?  For example, do the magical properties of sodium and chlorine combine into salt to form a magical amalgam of its parent elements?  I like the concept, but it does seem heavy; especially if the prospective readers are not well-versed in chemistry.  Is there a possibility of paring it down to more alchemical elements?  Are there particular elements you want to use that you can more cleanly incorporate without bringing in the "noise" of all the extra elements that you won't actually be using in the story?


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## Amanita (Apr 24, 2011)

Thank you for your input. 

I’m sort of following my world through important parts of its history. 

The oldest story’s setting isn’t exactly medieval, but it’s definitely low-tech and the story is a more or less classical high fantasy story. The villain is human but his father was a storm demon and he develops fluorine magic which gives him a very, well explosive, combination of magic. He gathers an army and tries to conquer the world, the heroes have to defeat him. Nothing special there.  At least not in a very quick summary, he’s not really our average Dark Lord. If he had won, history would remember him as a great leader, but he hasn’t won and so he’s remembered as a villain. 
The “heroes” also install a  lot of problematic rules in the “saved” country which causes its downfall in the future. 

The “middle” story is set in a late 19th to early 20th Century-setting. The two most powerful countries of the world go to war with each other summarizes the plot quickly. The country of the heroes from story one is colonised by the two fighting nations at this time and their citizens are sent to die en masse.
The main characters suffer many personal trials and troubles during that time and in the end, the “not quite so evil”-side wins.
In the end, the colonised country frees itself, because both parties are too involved in their war. 

The story I’m actually writing at the moment is set in modern times. The main characters have to deal with a terrorist organisation and with the lingering consequences of the earlier events. During that they have to do a once again not really unusual quest to find magical substances created by the villain from story one. 

So much about the stories. There isn’t really a special magical system for every element, they all work in the same one but give different abilities to their wielders. 
This works very well with the more common elements from the main groups but not for the transition metals. There are just too few differences between them that can be used for magic. 

There is the rule that elemental magicians need to have been in contact with their future element at some time during their childhood. So rare elements people aren’t getting into contact with are off, but I’m not sure if this will be enough. And this still gives me some elements I don’t have much use for such as Nickel. 
Another idea is, that the transition metal people might be able to command more than one metal. Instead they’d be able to control every element in their group which would limit the number of different magic forms. 
Or I’ll just leave them out completely. This would at least be a nice difference to all the stories using only metals for something like elemental magic. 



> You mentioned that the chemical composition of salt is important to the story; does the system of magic therefore mean that new systems are created when elements are made into compounds?


Yes, that’s right. Every element has its specific magic and in a compound these combine to form new forms of magic. 



> For example, do the magical properties of sodium and chlorine combine into salt to form a magical amalgam of its parent elements?


Yes, and salt is one of the substances that are very powerfully magical in my world. By the way, I like the term “parent element”.  My people actually link sodium and chlorine to male and female. Opinion on which is supposed to be which vary from culture to culture though.


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## Ravana (Apr 24, 2011)

Amanita said:


> Or I'll have to find a very good reason why the Uranium magicians are so much more reasonable than those commanding Chlorine or Fluorine or Phosphorus.



They don't need to be more reasonable… not as long as they're badly outnumbered.  Everybody's gotta sleep sometime. Or, as Steven Brust put it: "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style."

As for being able to nuke things: guess that depends partly on just how much power a mage can summon and control at one time. Getting chain reactions to work is so difficult that many early theorists thought nuclear weapons would prove impossible–and it took the best minds from most of the planet years of work to demonstrate otherwise. (And we can't get hydrogen to fuse at all without using fission explosions to create the necessary heat and pressure.) Can a chlorine mage gas an entire brigade? An entire city? If not, then a uranium one probably can't create a fission explosion. Even if he can–does he have the range to do it safely? Or will he inevitably be caught in his own blast? Could put a damper on what's possible–or at least what he's willing to do–right there. And _would_ he ever do so? Morality completely aside, nuking something is a very impractical way to conduct war: you're destroying whatever it is you were fighting over… which is why only two nuclear weapons have ever been used in warfare in the real world. This would, I think, be a desperation move at best. 

Another limit might be the extent to which someone can take advantage of his elemental link without training. If proper training is only available from someone else who can command the same element, that will prejudice the magical population toward the most commonly-used ones: it's not that there aren't people linked to, say, tungsten… but only a few people ever learned to use it well, so their knowledge will only be passed down to a narrow (and probably progressively narrowing) set of future mages. Perhaps some of the least commonly appearing elements have no known living practitioners, and the knowledge necessary to employ them is available only through the stereotypical rare arcane tome… or by trial and err–oops. <gack> <another promising career bites elemental dust> 



> Yes well, but I don't wan to. Having everyone forming a link with a radioactive element die from it, is a cheap way out as well, isn't it?



Heh. Not doing it because you don't want to was pretty much what I suggested in the first place–which, too, may be a "cheap" way out, but worrying about what iridium and osmium mages can do, and the differences between them (let alone what "radioactive" mages can do), isn't worth it if you don't want to explore it, and will just constitute needless clutter for your readers. You can always say that elemental abundances are different for your planet, that certain ones exist only in trace quantities too small to be useful (barring, perhaps, local concentrations, or the mage collecting it) or else not at all.

As for having radioactive mages die from their magic… what? Never heard of demonic pacts? Some people will do anything for short-term gain. The smart ones will realize that using their powers will ultimately destroy them, in unpleasant ways; the greedy ones will get to watch their skin slough off, teeth and hair fall out, and tumors infest their bodies… all before they're thirty.

And like I said: you can always save exploring additional elements for future stories. No reason to have to lay out the entire system at a go.


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## Amanita (Apr 25, 2011)

Thank you for giving this matter so much thought. 



> They don't need to be more reasonable… not as long as they're badly outnumbered.


That’s true of course. But I don’t really want a “let’s go and kill the evil uranium mage, heroes” storyline. At least not at the moment.  



> Can a chlorine mage gas an entire brigade? An entire city?


The most powerful ones can. Under great danger of losing control over their powers however. If they want to be able to do this kind of thing safely they need to dedicate a lot of their learning time to it. This isn’t encouraged for obvious reasons and therefore relatively few people do it. 



> And would he ever do so? Morality completely aside, nuking something is a very impractical way to conduct war.


This is doubtlessly true for the real world but if you are in control of the things that are happening returning the place to an inhabitable state is much more easy... At least in case of the poison-using ones this leads to a certain carelessness. (They’re immune to their own elements ill effects and to all of those poisons containing their element as well.) The uranium mage would be affected by the effects of the blast just like everyone else though. This would make his survival very unlikely indeed...



> Perhaps some of the least commonly appearing elements have no known living practitioners, and the knowledge necessary to employ them is available only through the stereotypical rare arcane tome…


Yes, that might be a possibility. Even though people can be taught by someone using a similar element that isn’t the same one. This does happen to my main character who has chlorine. The only chlorine adept in the circle isn’t considered trustworthy enough to teach, especially not some random foreigner, therefore she has to learn from a fluorine mage. (Whose attitudes don’t comply with the Circle rules any better but he’s not so open about it. )



> [...] but worrying about what iridium and osmium mages can do, and the differences between them (let alone what "radioactive" mages can do), isn't worth it if you don't want to explore it.


Yes, I’m starting to feel that way too. If I’m finding out something interesting and magically usable about them in inorganic chemistry course next summer I can still put them in. 
One idea to justify it might be that the person has to have his or her potential element close to them while the magic is developing and if this isn’t possible because the element isn’t commonly used, there won’t be any magic


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## Donny Bruso (May 1, 2011)

I realize that I'm reviving an older thread, but I've been gone from to forum for approximately a month and a half, so bear with me.

One of the most useful things I've been told, and it can be applied to almost any creative endeavor is that 'You cannot fit the entire world on one piece of paper.'

Granted most books take more than one piece of paper, but the point comes across. You can't fit the entire world into one binding. We can try, but it's pretty much an exercise in futility. Any world is far too vast and complex to be summed up in a few hundred or even thousand pages. Personally, I would come up with a reason why these mages that seem to be a gaping plot hole for you, such as uranium or plutonium, are either busy somewhere else, or there aren't any because no one manifested with the talent for several generations and the techniques are lost. If they are busy somewhere else, hey, look! Free tie-in for a sequel!


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