# The significance of plot without conflict



## Ophiucha (Jun 17, 2012)

An article by @stilleatingoranges, The significance of plot without conflict.

I really liked this article, as a writer heavily influenced by non-Western and 'literary' fiction. The comic example was a wonderful way to illustrate the point, I thought. And I certainly agree with the point, as I tend to enjoy stories with little to no conflict (at least as much as I do stories with conflict, anyway). What do you guys think?


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## Steerpike (Jun 17, 2012)

I like the article and the illustrations of the author's point. I'd like to find an example of a longer work of fiction with no conflict just to see whether it works for me.


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## Jabrosky (Jun 17, 2012)

It's an interesting cultural perspective, though I agree with Steerpike that specific examples of plots without conflicts would have strengthened his argument. However, I've always gravitated towards more action-packed stories, so in my case some kind of conflict or tension is necessary.


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## Steerpike (Jun 17, 2012)

Jabrosky said:


> It's an interesting cultural perspective, though I agree with Steerpike that specific examples of plots without conflicts would have strengthened his argument. However, I've always gravitated towards more action-packed stories, so in my case some kind of conflict or tension is necessary.



I like conflict as well. But I am curious as to how a plot with no conflict would work in a longer piece, if anyone has an example. I have read a few "eastern" works of fiction, but they all had conflict.


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## Ophiucha (Jun 17, 2012)

While not following the above structure, a popular book series called _The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency_ has, for all intents and purposes, no real conflict. A good half of the books are her drinking tea and contemplating a case or some instance in the world, but she faces no trials herself - all of her cases are solved by being introduced to them, collecting evidence, and then solving the case. There is never any obstacle in that middle stage. She simply goes to the library, looks something up, and returns with her findings. But they are well-liked.

Arguably, about 99% of the slice of life genre could qualify. In the article, she brings up the manga format of yonkoma, the four panel comics. But these are often part of a series, and many of them are adapted into anime, which run for 20+ episodes with nary a conflict in sight (and the few conflicts that exist are so minor -- "should I have tea or coffee?" -- or are fixed so easily that it barely should qualify as a conflict so much as the next step in a process).

I've seen a couple of kabuki plays which follow the 4-point-structure, as well.


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## Jabrosky (Jun 17, 2012)

Ophiucha said:


> While not following the above structure, a popular book series called _The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency_ has, for all intents and purposes, no real conflict. A good half of the books are her drinking tea and contemplating a case or some instance in the world, but she faces no trials herself - all of her cases are solved by being introduced to them, collecting evidence, and then solving the case. There is never any obstacle in that middle stage. She simply goes to the library, looks something up, and returns with her findings. But they are well-liked.


Exactly why are those books popular? Are they particularly informative?


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## Ophiucha (Jun 17, 2012)

I'd imagine they like the characters and the writing. I've only seen the TV show, which makes a few changes, but I really enjoyed all of the characters on the show. If they're much like their literary counterparts, I'd certainly read them.


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## Steerpike (Jun 17, 2012)

I'm going to look for one of them.


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## Devor (Jun 17, 2012)

There's a lot of stories, outside of fantasy, in which the conflict is personalized in nature, and the plot is just a platform over which the emotional journey develops.

I think a plot without conflict would feel weird in Fantasy, as a plot-driven conflict is a major strength of the genre.  But it can be extremely useful for a chapter here and there, or for subplotting.

I would love to see a more relevant example of the kishōtenketsu format than a soda machine.


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## Ophiucha (Jun 17, 2012)

There's a manga I quite like, Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou, which is science fiction/slice of life. Most chapters are about the main girl, Alpha (an android), running her cafe and talking with her friends, or riding around on her motorbike. It takes place in a post-apocalyptic world, too, but there is no continuous conflict or even mini conflicts in the individual chapters. It's just the rather long life of a robot girl as time passes. It's quite sweet, and oddly optimistic given the setting.

I don't think it being fantasy means it has to be plot-driven, or have a conflict at all. Some worlds are so interesting that I _would _like to see an average person on an average day. There have been some fascinating settings in fantasy fiction, with no sun or two moons, with dragons living among men, and while the stories of their heroes and their ends are gripping, I don't think the stories of their school life or bakeries would be _less _interesting. I read many stories more for the setting than anything else.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jun 17, 2012)

I read the article. I'm sure he's correct as far as he goes—in that you can have plot (that is, a series of events) without conflict... I just don't really see how it's going to be an _interesting_ series of events. Slice-of-life can, I suppose, be a little bit interesting if there's some novelty to it (seeing a slice of a kind of life you're not familiar with, like the life of someone in another culture). But reading a story that's ultimately no different than me living my own life... why would I bother?

I dunno, maybe it is just a cultural thing, but I think Westerners writing for Western audiences are going to have a lot of trouble gaining traction with stories that lack conflict.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jun 17, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:
			
		

> I read the article. I'm sure he's correct as far as he goes--in that you can have plot (that is, a series of events) without conflict... I just don't really see how it's going to be an interesting series of events. Slice-of-life can, I suppose, be a little bit interesting if there's some novelty to it (seeing a slice of a kind of life you're not familiar with, like the life of someone in another culture). But reading a story that's ultimately no different than me living my own life... why would I bother?
> 
> I dunno, maybe it is just a cultural thing, but I think Westerners writing for Western audiences are going to have a lot of trouble gaining traction with stories that lack conflict.



Agreed... I don't think a story w/o some form of conflict would be able to hold my interest.


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## Devor (Jun 17, 2012)

Ophiucha said:


> I don't think it being fantasy means it has to be plot-driven, or have a conflict at all.



I might have misspoke just a little.  I only meant that plot (and setting) have more power and prominence in fantasy than in other types of books.  Character, Plot and Setting are the three things to think about, and Character of course should _usually_ dominate.  But a strong Plot is one of the reasons people read fantasy, and I think skipping it would cost you a lot of readers in a book marketed in the genre.

That said, I could see something like a _slice of life_ working in fantasy if there were strong themes and messages which related to the modern reader.  If there's elements of _political commentary_ or _visionary fiction_, I could see a novel finding a substantial audience with minimal plot-driven conflict.  Also, if the emphasis of the work is on _historical fiction_, with only minor elements of appropriate fantasy, I could see it working.  I could add _paranormal romance_ in some cases, but I think there's still some elements of conflict in romance.

The long and short of it, however, is that I think it would have to be written more like a story from a different genre where it's more common, and marketed as such, for it to really work.  I have trouble imagining how it can work well as a straight fantasy.

But none of this interests me so much as the concept of kishōtenketsu, which actually utilizes a different way of storytelling.  The conflict is in the reader - the one created by the disconnect between the first two acts and the third - which the writer is taking advantage of.  That's much more intriguing than slice of life and messaging.  I think we're talking about the wrong thing.


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## Ophiucha (Jun 17, 2012)

I'm kind of surprised how many people really wouldn't read a story without conflict.

@Devor, I suppose my disconnect is as somebody who never has read fantasy primarily for the plots, and even in the strict scope of Western fantasy, has _always _preferred character-driven stories. I'm never going to write a story that's heavy on the plot regardless of whether or not there is conflict, so I guess I've already alienated the majority of the market.

I find 'fantasy' is, perhaps, inadequate as a genre for this very reason. When I hear fantasy, all I think is magic and magical beings. Which could be anything from the story of an artist struggling to gain popularity - if that artist happens to be a dragon - or a swords and sorcery epic. Certainly as long as there is something otherworldly, it is fantasy. It could be written as fantasy, in as much as their is a consistent style for the genre. It simply won't be written as an _adventure_, which is perhaps what people expect their high fantasy to be, but I can't imagine how it won't be written like a fantasy novel. You'll still be spending time describing worldbuilding, perhaps choosing tones and tendencies similar to an epic fantasy, just without the scope.

I think if you wanted to specifically apply _kishōtenketsu_ to a fantasy novel, you would follow basically the structure of: character introduction, character development, world revelation (introduce a unique fantastical element), conclusion. At least the way I see it. Perhaps for the greatest degree of intrigue to a Western viewer, this revelation could be something _ala _Twilight Zone, like "here are some nice people, oh look at them giggle and drink tea, oh but did you know that in this world all people are cannibals, and a final sombre look at them drinking tea with those ambiguous 'ham' sandwiches they like so much".


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## Devor (Jun 17, 2012)

Ophiucha said:


> @Devor, I suppose my disconnect is as somebody who never has read fantasy primarily for the plots, and even in the strict scope of Western fantasy, has _always _preferred character-driven stories. I'm never going to write a story that's heavy on the plot regardless of whether or not there is conflict, so I guess I've already alienated the majority of the market.



I think there's a huge difference between _absolutely zero conflict_ and _I want a story that's character-driven_.  I thought we were talking about the first?

Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter and Game of Thrones are _all_ character driven.  The plots, even the adventuring aspects, are used to highlight those characters.  Lord of the Rings is not about a ring but about a hobbit.  Game of Thrones is about politicking - which is to say, characters trying to manipulate their relationships to gain the advantage.  And Harry Potter, I think, should be obvious.  What makes these stories fantastic is the way the fantasy plots build and create new kinds of characters which readers can't find elsewhere.

Because conflict-plotting is such an ingrained aspect of the genre, I only say it would be difficult to create a fantasy story with _zero_ conflict, unless it was written to the strengths of a genre where that was more common.

But honestly, _zero-conflict_ for an entire novel is _extreme_.  If you or anyone else here is actually writing a zero-conflict novel, I'd love to hear it because I like the feeling of _shock_.


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## Christopher Wright (Jun 17, 2012)

Are we talking NO CONFLICT at all, or just no overt conflict? Because I find it hard to imagine reading a novel-length story where there isn't even a "man v. himself" style of conflict. I mean, the detective agency example above is still based on conflict. Solving a mystery is a form of conflict resolution, even if it's not direct, hand-to-hand combat.


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## Ophiucha (Jun 17, 2012)

@Devor, I don't think I said character-driven = no conflict, however in your post above, you say that one of the strengths of fantasy is its ability to hold a strong plot, to which I am replying "even in the scope of Western fantasy," which is to say - ignoring Eastern and other non-Western works that have different narrative structures - "I prefer character-driven stories", and by that I don't mean Harry Potter, which I still consider very story-oriented. I like things where characters dominate and overshadow the plot. I also would not consider Lord of the Rings, by any means, primarily character driven.

I gave a possible example of a conflictless story in the post you were replying to, specifically following the four-part structure. And I have a project in the backburner, only one draft so far, which is slice of life/fantasy.

@Christopher Wright, the argument is often made for the detective agency story as _not _conflict-driven, and it is often brought up in discussions such as these, because the 'conflict', solving a case, is not an obstacle. It is no more a conflict than if you wrote a story about a teacher, who goes to school, teaches her students about Catcher in the Rye, has lunch, teaches her second class which happens to be Latin 101, and then drove home. There is absolutely no challenge to her solving these mysteries, and indeed, given the nature of many of her cases - which are often more research projects than anything - it borders on hyperbole to call it "solving a mystery" at all.


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## Christopher Wright (Jun 17, 2012)

... an argument can be often made and still be wrong. I happen to disagree with the argument because conflict is based on structure not prominence.

Also, the chances of me ever engaging in hyperbole are like a trillion billion to one against.


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## Penpilot (Jun 17, 2012)

Very interesting and informative article, but for my very very western POV and mind, the four act structure as described seems to be the the western style structure with the first act broken into two. With the cartoon example, the conflict isn't overt or complicated, but at the end I think I see it in two possible ways. One, the girl is looking for an excuse to break the ice with a guy she likes and she resolves that conflict with the pop. Two, what happens after? Does the guy reject her?

This is not to say the article is wrong, but it's just the way my mind sees things. Cultural plays into this too. Eastern cultures are high context cultures vs. the low context cultures of the west. I'm too dumb to explain the concept properly so here's the wiki entry on it High context culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia But basically there is cultural baggage that eastern cultures have that can give things deeper meaning base just on the situation. It's like an inside joke. For those in on it, you just have to say, "Fish sticks" and the people who are in on the joke will laugh while others will just look at them confused. For those not in on the joke, they need the context explained to them for the laugh to happen.

So the conflict may be brought to the table by the cultural context of things. My two cents anyway.


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## Jabrosky (Jun 18, 2012)

Has anyone here heard of sketch stories or vignettes? From what I've read about them, they're pieces of prose that don't necessarily have any plot, let alone conflict; they're essentially stream-of-consciousness exercises which can describe scenes, characters, or whatever else is on the writers' minds. I find the idea behind them especially appealing because I frequently have mental images of settings, scenes, and characters that I really want to record but for some reason can't be bothered to stretch them out into whole stories.


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## The Dark One (Jun 18, 2012)

Devor said:


> I think there's a huge difference between _absolutely zero conflict_ and _I want a story that's character-driven_.  I thought we were talking about the first?
> 
> *Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter and Game of Thrones are all character driven.*  The plots, even the adventuring aspects, are used to highlight those characters.  Lord of the Rings is not about a ring but about a hobbit.



Are you kidding?

LOTR is certainly _partially_ character driven, but it's the classic, watershed, fantasy plot. Ancient evil rising again, searching for that ring of power that would make his victory certain. Ring falls into the hands of a small unlikely hero who must first get the ring to safety against overwhelming odds and then set off on a quest to destroy the ring in the absolute heart of the enemy's realm...

The characters are only interesting (and evolving) because of the role they play within the structure of the plot.

To suggest the story is character driven is to somehow suggest that Sauron's actions were somehow inspired by Frodo's personality.


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## Devor (Jun 18, 2012)

The Dark One said:


> Are you kidding?



No, I'm not.  LOTR opens with a Birthday party of all things.  If you cannot see how even a story with a strong plot is _character driven_, and how the strength of the novel doesn't come from the plot but from _the character's reactions to it_, then I suggest reconsidering the way in you which you read and write books.

Also, as has been pointed out elsewhere, Sauron's failure _was_ caused by his inability to understand Frodo's personality.


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## Ghost (Jun 18, 2012)

The article was interesting, and it makes me wonder. I'll have to reread it later.

This may be stupid, but how do I figure out what the conflict of a story is?

Let's say my story is about a mountain climber, Jeff. The story starts with Jeff halfway up the mountain. He reminisces about another time he climbed a mountain. He climbs the mountain without any trouble. At the top, he takes in the view and waxes poetic about what he sees. Jeff decides this will be the last mountain he climbs because whatever happened the other time made climbing mountains less satisfying or less enjoyable, and he wishes it hadn't happened. The end.

I haven't written that exact story, but I have a few where the character proceeds toward a goal without any setbacks then they have a revelation followed by a strong feeling (doubt, sadness, shame, etc). Maybe they have a major revelation about the world they live in, an emotional reaction, and then smaller revelation about themselves. What would the conflict be in a story like that? The character doesn't struggle to make a decision. Although he's full of doubt, no alternatives are offered and his path is inevitable. I figure it's some sort of internal conflict, but I don't know much about this kind of thing.


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## Helen (Jun 19, 2012)

Ophiucha said:


> An article by @stilleatingoranges, The significance of plot without conflict.



Rates as one of the WORST articles I have ever read. No understanding of story or conflict. Uses the old "eastern wisdom" card as a cover for intellectual retardation. Sorry, but it's really, really bad. If the writer understood Kishōtenketsu, he or she would have come to a different conclusion.

Perfect example of someone taking a concept and reinterpreting it badly. Positively damaging.

I don't want to offend stilleatingoranges, but he just hasn't thought about it.


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## Helen (Jun 19, 2012)

Devor said:


> No, I'm not.  LOTR opens with a Birthday party of all things.  If you cannot see how even a story with a strong plot is _character driven_, and how the strength of the novel doesn't come from the plot but from _the character's reactions to it_, then I suggest reconsidering the way in you which you read and write books.



Then there is the (very powerful) argument that no story is character driven. It may seem odd, but think about it a minute. It'll flip your head.


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## Jabrosky (Jun 19, 2012)

Helen said:


> Rates as one of the WORST articles I have ever read. No understanding of story or conflict. Uses the old "eastern wisdom" card as a cover for intellectual retardation. Sorry, but it's really, really bad. If the writer understood Kishōtenketsu, he or she would have come to a different conclusion.
> 
> Perfect example of someone taking a concept and reinterpreting it badly. Positively damaging.
> 
> I don't want to offend stilleatingoranges, but he just hasn't thought about it.



Since you apparently know more about this Kishōtenketsu than the article writer, can you explain where he went wrong?


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## The Dark One (Jun 19, 2012)

Devor said:


> No, I'm not.  LOTR opens with a Birthday party of all things.  If you cannot see how even a story with a strong plot is _character driven_, and how the strength of the novel doesn't come from the plot but from _the character's reactions to it_, then *I suggest reconsidering the way in you which you read and write books*.
> 
> Also, as has been pointed out elsewhere, Sauron's failure _was_ caused by his inability to understand Frodo's personality.



Good god! And there was I thinking that moderators were supposed to be keepers of the peace...

If you reread my post you'll see that we are both talking about characterisation within the lines of plot.

As for the way I read and write books...I won't be changing. It's worked very well so far, thanks for asking.


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## kennyc (Jun 19, 2012)

Christopher Wright said:


> ... an argument can be often made and still be wrong. I happen to disagree with the argument because conflict is based on structure not prominence.
> 
> Also, the chances of me ever engaging in hyperbole are like a trillion billion to one against.



I think the 'twist' he discusses IS conflict, just not what HE describes as conflict which seems to be more like physical cliff-hanger type conflict. 

It seems the article writer is talking more about story structure than plot. 

There is a great analysis of plot vs story vs character based on James Baldwin's "Sonny's Blues" chapter 9 of The Making of a Story by Alice LaPlante.


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## Penpilot (Jun 19, 2012)

Ghost said:


> The article was interesting, and it makes me wonder. I'll have to reread it later.
> 
> This may be stupid, but how do I figure out what the conflict of a story is?
> 
> ...



The conflict is internal. Without knowing more, it lies in the question of what happened on the other mountain that would make him want to quit. It's the internal argument of should I quit.


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## ShortHair (Jun 19, 2012)

The way I learned it, if you don't have a conflict, you don't have a story. Period. Without a conflict, fiction is a wall of text with no point.

Having said that, I don't see how you can claim a story has no conflict but is still enjoyable. You may not be able to define the conflict to your satisfaction, but you wouldn't keep reading without the promise of some kind of resolution.


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## kennyc (Jun 19, 2012)

ShortHair said:


> The way I learned it, if you don't have a conflict, you don't have a story. Period. Without a conflict, fiction is a wall of text with no point.
> 
> Having said that, I don't see how you can claim a story has no conflict but is still enjoyable. You may not be able to define the conflict to your satisfaction, but you wouldn't keep reading without the promise of some kind of resolution.



Well, I know I've seen/read any number of stories that seem to be just character sketches or landscape displays or day in the life without any real conflict of point....

You are right in that they sucked as far as I'm concerned, but clearly they were stories and someone considered them as such because they were published. 

Still though, as I explained above I do not see the O.P. example as being conflict-less because the "third panel" IS the conflict.


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## Feo Takahari (Jun 19, 2012)

A good example of story without conflict in a Western work. An injustice may be perceived, but there's no struggle against it--it's merely observed and discussed.


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## JCFarnham (Jun 19, 2012)

For a story to resolve, or rather the mere act of saying resolution (or beginning, middle and END as we were probably taught in school) suggests there is conflict. For example, If there are multiple characters it is very unlikely that all of them will hold exactly the same opinions or morals. Those things create the conflict, even if none of it is ever verbalised (or even only subtextal). For some kind of satisfaction to occur I would need a piece to have an end/resolution, so .. no conflict.. what is there to "end"? Where's the satisfaction? 

I'm interested is what I'm saying (good thread, challenging.)

Let's take the example of the teacher.. she may not have to make any huge decisions but can you honestly tell me there would be no conflict in a class of young people? There's always one (anyone who's worked in education should know what I'm talking about you can spot them a mile off). I can't say I would read any slice of life piece that didn't think about that. Slice of life "to me" is about realism. And let's not forget there is always some kind of subtextual conflict. Cultural stuff is a good example and something that comes up in good slice of life all the time.

I'm not saying its impossible to create a story with absolutely no conflict. It's just damn rare to me (and from my point of view totally pointless, for what little its worth haha). A lot of the examples given in thread still present conflict, even if that is "look, here is someone whose life might be really rather different from yours, does that make you feel differently about yourself?" That's exploring the human condition.

Dig deep enough into the story and yourself and you'll find it. If you don't then what it the purpose of that piece of fiction? It hasn't posed any subtext, any questions, hasn't brought anything to light even subtly... Sounds pretty worthless to me.

(whenever I say "to me" I hope you realise I'm talking based on my opinion, based in my context. That is to say, this post is allowed to mean nothing. Just like any text is allowed to mean nothing if you're not "in on it". Yeeeah..)


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## JCFarnham (Jun 19, 2012)

Feo Takahari said:
			
		

> A good example of story without conflict in a Western work. An injustice may be perceived, but there's no struggle against it--it's merely observed and discussed.



Although not acted upon I would still say it has conflict. Those opinions of Newgate its subtle but to me the narrators conflict is all the talk of "we used to...". That suggests that stopped for some reason. Then there's the opinions of the buildings and so on, seemed to me he didn't like them much but felt he had to (as in the mentions of awe and the nostalgia).

Anyway, just my two pence analysis.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jun 19, 2012)

ShortHair said:


> The way I learned it, if you don't have a conflict, you don't have a story. Period. Without a conflict, fiction is a wall of text with no point.



I don't know if lacking conflict makes fiction _pointless_. Fiction can serve other purposes than to tell a story (if we define "story" as "a series of events that involve conflict"). "Ozymandias" has no conflict (or at least, none that's obvious to me), but it's a tremendously enjoyable and insightful poem whose point is that even the greatest empires will some day fall to dust. But there isn't any obvious conflict, since it isn't a "story" in the way I defined it above.

That said, I agree that I would define "story" as "a series of events that involve conflict." If there's no conflict, it's not a story; it's an anecdote or recounting or journal entry or tone piece. There are things that resemble stories (in that they are a series of events) but involve no conflict. I wouldn't call them stories. It doesn't mean they have no value; I just wouldn't consider them stories.


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## ThinkerX (Jun 19, 2012)

Strange.  I always thought stories were about *change* - which might or might not involve conflict.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jun 19, 2012)

ThinkerX said:
			
		

> Strange.  I always thought stories were about *change* - which might or might not involve conflict.



How do characters change without conflict?


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jun 19, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> How do characters change without conflict?



People change without conflict, in some cases. There are things I did a lot when I was younger, and I look back on them now and roll my eyes at how juvenile I was—but the reason I stopped doing them was simply because I aged and my priorities changed. There was never a Teachable Moment where I realized that what I was doing was juvenile. It just faded away.

That said, change without conflict usually isn't very interesting to read about.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jun 20, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:
			
		

> People change without conflict, in some cases. There are things I did a lot when I was younger, and I look back on them now and roll my eyes at how juvenile I was--but the reason I stopped doing them was simply because I aged and my priorities changed. There was never a Teachable Moment where I realized that what I was doing was juvenile. It just faded away.
> 
> That said, change without conflict usually isn't very interesting to read about.



People might change without conflict....might. Characters however? Well I just don't see how that's feasible. Showing such a gradual change, or a change that hardly noticeable would not only be exceedingly boring (agree with you there) but hard to accomplish with a novel's word count.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jun 20, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> People might change without conflict....might. Characters however? Well I just don't see how that's feasible. Showing such a gradual change, or a change that hardly noticeable would not only be exceedingly boring (agree with you there) but hard to accomplish with a novel's word count.



Oh, I totally agree. I didn't say it would be interesting, just that it's possible.


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## Steerpike (Jun 20, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> There are things I did a lot when I was younger, and I look back on them now and roll my eyes at how juvenile I was—but the reason I stopped doing them was simply because I aged and my priorities changed.



I'd characterize that as internal conflict, however. I think the process of growing up and maturing, which we all go through as we transition from children to adults, is impacted by both internal and external conflicts, many of which are quite compelling (which is why coming of age stories are so popular).


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## Penpilot (Jun 20, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> People change without conflict, in some cases. There are things I did a lot when I was younger, and I look back on them now and roll my eyes at how juvenile I was–but the reason I stopped doing them was simply because I aged and my priorities changed. There was never a Teachable Moment where I realized that what I was doing was juvenile. It just faded away.



I'd argue people can't change without conflict. In you're case I would argue the change was not because of one specifically large conflict but a series of many tiny-tiny ones that incrementally changed and shifted you from one point of view to another. To me it's like Newton's First Law of Motion, objects at rest tend to stay at rest and objects in motion tend to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force, something to that effect.

Anything that challenges a person's beliefs, causes one to question their paths in life, is conflict. Choice is conflict no matter how small large it is. For example, something like waking up with a hangover and asking yourself "Was it worth it?" is conflict. When you're young the answer will probably be "Yes", but repeat over the course of years, and as you age and your body stops recovering as quickly, the scales may tilt and the answer may become "No". 

As writers conflict abounds in life but it's finding the interesting and significant conflicts that matter to the characters that's the challenge. On the surface a choice between vanilla or chocolate ice cream is an insignificant and boring conflict, but in the right context and point of view--say that of a child--it can be earth shattering.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jun 20, 2012)

Penpilot said:


> I'd argue people can't change without conflict. In you're case I would argue the change was not because of one specifically large conflict but a series of many tiny-tiny ones that incrementally changed and shifted you from one point of view to another. To me it's like Newton's First Law of Motion, objects at rest tend to stay at rest and objects in motion tend to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force, something to that effect.
> 
> Anything that challenges a person's beliefs, causes one to question their paths in life, is conflict. Choice is conflict no matter how small large it is. For example, something like waking up with a hangover and asking yourself "Was it worth it?" is conflict. When you're young the answer will probably be "Yes", but repeat over the course of years, and as you age and your body stops recovering as quickly, the scales may tilt and the answer may become "No".
> 
> As writers conflict abounds in life but it's finding the interesting and significant conflicts that matter to the characters that's the challenge. On the surface a choice between vanilla or chocolate ice cream is an insignificant and boring conflict, but in the right context and point of view--say that of a child--it can be earth shattering.



Possibly; I mean, there are things that I used to do that I found fun, and then one day it wasn't fun anymore. And I said, "Huh, that's weird." And I was a little disappointed. But it wasn't fun, so I stopped doing it. I mean, I guess technically that's conflict, of a sort...


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## Ophiucha (Jun 22, 2012)

Mmm, lots of conversation going on here. Some thoughts on the topics brought up.

1) Certainly, we could argue that everything is conflict if we really wanted to. But I think that is being just a bit of a pedantic ass to do so. Yes, there is a 'conflict' in choosing between buying the Danish Blue and the Gorgonzola - if you're a turophile like me, that's a damn hard choice, too - but if your story is about a girl buying her groceries and this is a single paragraph in a 20 page story on the subject, it's not a conflict in any significant, literary sense. I would argue that in order for the story itself to have a conflict in the way we describe plots and map out plot triangles, the conflict would _have _to be integral to the story, as opposed to a minor scene in it or speculative subtext.

2) Very much the point of the original article is the nature of literature and storytelling in the Western world versus the rest of the world. The argument "the way I was taught" _exemplifies _the article's point more than discredits it. The entire point of the article was that no matter how standardized - down to graphs and bullet points and novels worth of analysis - the very idea of a story is in the West, it simply isn't the same standard used in other parts of the world. We can stretch non-Western stories to fit into it, by extrapolation, but I imagine a Japanese or Chinese person could very easily do the same to _our_ literature (and likely has) and force it to comply to their story structures.

3) I don't think story has to be change, per se, though in the same pedantic way one could argue everything has conflict, one could also argue everything has change. Certainly, to bring up the 4 panel comic from the article, the change is... the girl now has a can of soda, or more accurately the boy does. And similarly, that doesn't _mean _anything when looking at it as a piece of literature. It's not something you could talk about in any truly literary way. Also, I would argue having a dynamic protagonist isn't strictly necessary. Often what you need, but static characters - as long as they're not flat, as well - have their purpose.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jun 22, 2012)

Ophiucha said:


> Mmm, lots of conversation going on here. Some thoughts on the topics brought up.
> 
> 1) Certainly, we could argue that everything is conflict if we really wanted to. But I think that is being just a bit of a pedantic ass to do so. Yes, there is a 'conflict' in choosing between buying the Danish Blue and the Gorgonzola - if you're a turophile like me, that's a damn hard choice, too - but if your story is about a girl buying her groceries and this is a single paragraph in a 20 page story on the subject, it's not a conflict in any significant, literary sense.



I don't know that I'd go down the "literary" road. The whole idea of "literature" vs. "genre" writing is proving to be more and more absurd (well, it was always absurd, it's just that people are starting to realize it). I would still call the cheese decision conflict, but extremely minor, boring conflict.

Then again, some people are interested in reading about mundane, everyday life, so... if there's a market for it, and your goal is to serve that market, then there's nothing wrong with a 20-page story full of mundane stuff.


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## Christopher Wright (Jun 22, 2012)

Removed because nevermind. I'm not a moderator and it's not my place to say.


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## Devor (Jun 22, 2012)

I think something's been lost in this discussion.  The article refers to conflict as it's derived from the _plot_.  But there are other elements of storytelling from which conflict can be derived.  The kishōtenketsu model, which for me is the most noteworthy aspect of this discussion, generates a conflict by creating confusion in the narrative style.  It's conflict, certainly, but it's not done through _plot_.  Internal struggles, combating physical and emotional fatigue, as well as personal goal-setting, can all be valuable tools in character development, and do not necessarily rely on plotting to tell an interesting story.

I repeat myself from earlier, plot-focused conflicts are one of the strengths of writing fantasy, but many of the greatest stories ever told rely on simple conflicts and utilize other story elements to develop their characters, generating other forms of conflict.

This conversation will be more useful to our members if people recognize the distinction which the article is attempting to make between plot-driven conflict and other forms of plotting.  Posts which focus _solely_ on what is or is not a conflict are not productive.




Ophiucha said:


> 1) Certainly, we could argue that everything is conflict if we really wanted to. But I think that is being just a bit . . . .



Perhaps next time we could just say they're being a bit "unhelpful"?


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## studentofrhythm (Jun 25, 2012)

Chiming in late, will try to be useful.

This article is a green light for me.  I don't know if my WIP would be classified as fantasy, because not only is there no magic, I don't see any plot-driven conflict either.  The story does revolve around a sort of quest, which only comes about later, and has nothing to do with saving the world or violence.  A war does figure in, but it takes place off-stage.  The MC has tasks and problems to solve, but I've always been aware of how different they are from the heroic quests or similar things I understand to be typical of fantasy, and wondered if my book will turn out to be seen as boring by many.

This gives me hope.

Is this a good place to ask about fantasy that specifically doesn't have _violence_ as a core feature, or should that be another thread?


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## Ophiucha (Jun 25, 2012)

studentofrhythm said:


> Is this a good place to ask about fantasy that specifically doesn't have _violence_ as a core feature, or should that be another thread?



You'd probably get more of a response in a new thread, but I'll answer. 

The way I've always seen it, fantasy is more of a setting than it is a genre. Action is the genre, usually. Sword fights and magic duels are all action goodness. But there's certainly other fantasy stories out there. The most popular non-action fantasy genre is probably romance, so the conflict is usually the same as a regular romance novel: he doesn't like her, they like each other but they ~can't be together~ for whatever reason (in fantasy, perhaps one is an elf and one is a dwarf), etc. Any genre, though, from adventure (which often crosses over with action, though doesn't always do so) to comedy to existential fiction could be fantasy. So no, I don't think you need a big battle for something to be fantasy.

And not having magic is usually classified as 'low fantasy', a fabulous subgenre that I very much enjoy. I, at least, wouldn't find your story boring because of a lack of magic and violence, but I can't say I'm the majority. There'd definitely be people who'd find it uninteresting, but there _is _a market for action-less fantasy.


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## Helen (Jun 25, 2012)

*conflict in story*

I cannot believe this conversation is still going on.



Devor said:


> ...generates a conflict by creating confusion



So there you go. You need to define "conflict."

If you reduce it to physical confrontation it may not always be there.

If you open it up to include resistance, confusion and a whole bunch of other things then you'll find it's ALWAYS there.


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## Ophiucha (Jun 25, 2012)

Helen said:


> If you reduce it to physical confrontation it may not always be there.
> 
> If you open it up to include resistance, confusion and a whole bunch of other things then you'll find it's ALWAYS there.



As I've been arguing, though, not every story ever told has a conflict of any sort. There are stories that are just one day in somebody's life, with no romance or adventure or hard tests to study for or upcoming quarterlies. Just a day. Indeed, I don't believe at any point I *ever* defined conflict as pure, physical confrontation.


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## kennyc (Jun 25, 2012)

Hi Helen! :wavespin:


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## Ophiucha (Jun 25, 2012)

For the sake of expanding on the point, I've found some related articles and blog posts, not all of which relate directly to fiction, but do relate to _kishōtenketsu_.

Danger of abbreviations. Powerpoint syndrome. The Story of An Hour, which is a Western short story written in a similar 4-point structure. A general recommendation for the "Father of Japanese short stories", Ryūnosuke Akutagawa, who uses _contrast _in place of conflict.* A Discussion of Story by Ursula K. LeGuin, which dances lightly on conflict though does discuss that concept of change we were talking about earlier. Wikipedia page for kishōtenketsu. A bit of short, interesting commentary on the original article, and another interesting comment. TV Tropes page on an Eastern concept that can - due to its nature - have a lack of conflict.

* Arguably juxtaposition is precisely the point of this particular conflict-less form of storytelling.

I think that's all I will add to this conversation, if nobody has any more specific questions or thoughts. If none of this convinces you (or if it convinces you, but doesn't interest you), then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I've got nothing more I can add.


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## Steerpike (Jun 25, 2012)

I'll have to take a look at those links this evening. I find this subject interesting. I have read Chopin's "The Story of an Hour" before, and I view that one as having conflict. Was it meant to be an example of a story that did not have conflict, or mere an example of the 4-point structure?


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## Ophiucha (Jun 25, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> I'll have to take a look at those links this evening. I find this subject interesting. I have read Chopin's "The Story of an Hour" before, and I view that one as having conflict. Was it meant to be an example of a story that did not have conflict, or mere an example of the 4-point structure?



The 4-point structure, though it does certainly have quite the abstract conflict.


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## Steerpike (Jun 25, 2012)

Ophiucha said:


> The 4-point structure, though it does certainly have quite the abstract conflict.



Yes. It is all internal, as I see it. Societal expectations, outward appearances, versus inner realities. The manifestation of these at the end is physical, and even in that the conflict between truth and appearances/expectations remains (i.e. the view that she died of joy).

It's a nice little story. I like Chopin, in any event.


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