# Is cliche bad?



## C_OReilly (Dec 27, 2011)

Hey guys,
This is something that when I hear it, I don't know whether to cringe, or whether to thank the person. Being told a story I wrote reminds them of a ton of other fantasy novels they've read or just point blank, 'that plots a bit cliche'. Would you classify that as a bad thing? Because I find with fantasy in particular that the same formula tends to get used time and time again, this whole thing of light dominating dark. LOTR and The Wheel of Time are notably big competitors, yet The WoT isn't slammed for employing a similar formula to LOTR. An evil threat rises with high reference to darkness, and the light must regain dominion over dark to return the world to peace. So a company of adventurers set out on a quest to save the world, with the protagonist being a young and unlikely individual. In LOTR case, Frodo Baggins from The Shire and in The WoT's case Rand Al'Thor from Two Rivers.

Yet this aside I grew to enjoy The Wheel of Time and never found me relating it back to LOTR as being a hindrance on my enjoyment. I suppose, a story doesn't need to try too hard to employ a new flavor in the generic fantasy formula for it to be something special that readers will hold dear to them for years to come, which is my goal in becoming a writer, to create stories that people will look back on like an old friend, as anyone should with a good story.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Dec 27, 2011)

Ah, the thing that all writers fear: cliche.  If someone tells you your work is cliche this is not a good thing.  Its like saying "this reminds me of so many other fantasy books I've read".  Cliches are really tricky things to deal with, when people read fantasy books (or any books) they want something that will surprise them, give them something new.  If they read a book with heavy use of cliches they will find it over-familiar, predictable, and generally worn-out or even tedious. 

The formula of LOTR now seems familiar to fantasy readers, but when it came out it was something new, a genre waiting for something big and defining, and of course it was a big success.  Ever since it is a template that has been mimicked, either out of love for the original, or for a formula that works.  It has never been topped.  Having said that, there are many levels of cliche, and SOME you can get away with.  If you find yourself using age-old gimmicks and don't want to change them for the sake of your story, then either try and disguise them, or make up for them with lots of unnexpected twists and more original plot devices.

By the way, don't despair.  According to a quiz my book is 50-75% cliche.  Its just about how you handle it.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Dec 27, 2011)

I tend to find that stories are called "clichÃ©d" when the writing isn't interesting enough to distract you from the fact that the story elements are fairly routine. Which is fine; the reason you see a lot of common story elements is because they work. The window dressing has to be good enough to make it a fun ride.


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## Telcontar (Dec 27, 2011)

You said it already. Plenty of famous books are fairly cliched. The only thing that remains is: do the readers notice? 

Cliche and archetype are really the same thing. Good writing follows archetypes, bad writing uses cliches. Thus, the only thing you can do is make sure your own writing is good. As a final caution, try to vary your cliches/archetypes. Often a particular story path has a number of them associated with it, ie the chosen one/prophecy/dark lord. Change the formula at least a little bit.


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## C_OReilly (Dec 27, 2011)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> I tend to find that stories are called "clichÃ©d" when the writing isn't interesting enough to distract you from the fact that the story elements are fairly routine. Which is fine; the reason you see a lot of common story elements is because they work. The window dressing has to be good enough to make it a fun ride.



Indeed. So what your saying is, I could add Elves and Halflings and Orcs to my story, and the battle between light and dark but it's how I present the characters, develop them, progress the story and just generally make it interesting that determines whether people will paint cliche all over the front cover?


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## TWErvin2 (Dec 27, 2011)

There have been successes where there was little difference and little effort to hide it between novels/series. 

For example: Lord of the Rings and The Iron Tower Trilogy (by Dennis L. McKiernan).

Then there's Stephen R. Donaldson's Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever (set of trilogies). They are basically good vs. evil, but there aren't any elves or orcs, rather there are Cave Wights and Ur-viles, and The Land and its magic are totally different. Yet there are giants and magical staves, etc.

There are only so many themes and storylines out there. But it's what you do with them. Being totally off the wall can be as detrimental as being exactly like other well known works out there. Readers often like some familiarity, just not too much so that it's boring or predictable--or overly cliche.

If you ask me, in the end, do what's right for your story--the one you want to tell. You'll never please everyone. Avoid carbon copies and just make it the best it can be.


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## C_OReilly (Dec 27, 2011)

TWErvin2 said:


> There have been successes where there was little difference and little effort to hide it between novels/series.
> 
> For example: Lord of the Rings and The Iron Tower Trilogy (by Dennis L. McKiernan).
> 
> ...



Thanks TERrvin,
From what you've said, would you classify a means of moving away from cliche is by the use of foreign languages and the remaking of character types into something not totally the same?
Coming up with beast types and naming them things like Hogskree, Grogsneerz, Wulgs and Bansheers
Naming towns with names like Bosh'Khalar and Nimaway, each name representing a title in a foreign language.


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## terence.soule (Dec 28, 2011)

There's actually a fair amount of literary theory here (most of which I don't really know), but many (most?) stories come down to some version of good versus evil or light versus dark, especially in fantasy.  That's part of the reason there are some many attenpts to put different spins on it, anti-hero's, deconstructions, etc.  Similarly, the theme of a quest extends more or less throughout human literature, e.g. at least back to The Odyssey and is a staple of most cultures.  Or if you have a romantic element it's 'boy find girl, boy loses girl boy wins girl back'. So, in that very general sense its very difficult to escape the basics - and I suspect that if you did it would be hard to get anyone to like it.  As an example think of Lovecraft, now one of the foundations of modern horror, but seriously under-rated in his own time (at least by most people).

Of course, if your readers actually think 'boy this is cliched' then I suspect you do have a lot of rewriting to do.

[email protected]
The Seventh Bridge


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## sashamerideth (Dec 28, 2011)

C_OReilly said:
			
		

> Thanks TERrvin,
> From what you've said, would you classify a means of moving away from cliche is by the use of foreign languages and the remaking of character types into something not totally the same?
> Coming up with beast types and naming them things like Hogskree, Grogsneerz, Wulgs and Bansheers
> Naming towns with names like Bosh'Khalar and Nimaway, each name representing a title in a foreign language.



Original plots move away from clichÃ©. Take a look at Flank Hawk. It has some common fantasy creatures, but a different brand of magic, and, er, Nazis (Godwin's law doesn't apply here).  Original creatures, not just elves with less pointy ears, moves away from clichÃ©. 

Know the clichÃ©s and tropes. That way you can avoid them and just be different. It may involve reading bad fantasy to see how not to do it. Read good fantasy as well, don't let the a stuff pollute your mind. 

One last thing. For me, there are two basic kinds of good fantasy. One is unlike anything you have ever read before, challenges everything you thought you knew about the genre. Then there are those that are familiar, and travel along expected routes, maybe a few twists to make it interesting, but not too many. What you have written in the showcase is a good candidate for the latter.

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## Lord Darkstorm (Dec 28, 2011)

Maybe more concentration on the characters and the story you are telling.  A elf by another name but the same in all other ways, is still an elf.  Cliche is bad because who wants to read a knock off story about a halfling on a quest to destroy an all powerful magic ring that is bound to the evil looking to consume the world?  It really doesn't matter how well you write, if you try and rewrite lotr no one will accept it.  The closer your story is to another the less appeal it will have, and the more people will dislike it because of what it isn't...which is the original. 

Cliche is thing that are done so often they are dull and boring.  "Now we have to go get the magical sword of demon slaying before we can fight the demon.  To find the sword we need to ask the all knowing oracle", of which everyone knows of but the demon.  

While it is true that all these things are done over and over again, the difference is how they are done.  If every idea you have came from another book, then you might want to drop the idea and look for new ones.  One method of keeping things more original is to discard the first two possibilities you come up with for your ideas.  The first two are probably the most likely to be more cliche, and by the time you reach the third, you are getting more original ideas, since the easy to determine ones are used.  When you are determining your evil, you might want to throw out the first dozen ideas.  

If you want your story to not be cliche, then it has to be more original, and that isn't too difficult if you avoid doing what has been done in the same way other authors have done it time and again.


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## eternaldream24 (Dec 28, 2011)

Thanks for this post! I have some follow up questions: what if some people say that certain sentences of your book is cliche? Does that mean I have to completely change every sentence they think is cliche? My dilemma is that most of my feedback has been positive and doesn't mention cliches at all. I know I can't please everyone, but how do you choose who to listen to? How do you know if you should change something or leave it the way it is?


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## Lord Darkstorm (Dec 28, 2011)

Sentence being cliche?  It could be, but usually they are ones taken out of movies.  "I'll be back." should be instantly identifiable to a number of people.  Does that mean you can't use it?  No, you can, but not in the same context as it was used in Terminator.  The sentence itself has no problem, but placed in the proper context, then it is.

As for what to do, well, that's up to you.  Opinions are like...well, everyone has one.  Some are good, some are bad, and some are good on odd days..and so forth.  Look at what people are saying and look for common things.  Also go for reviewers that will tell the truth.  Friends and relatives will more often than not be nice and tell you it is wonderful.  If you get me to tell you it is wonderful, it just might be.  My usual take on feedback is look for common issues.  No one will like everything, that's fine, not everyone will agree it's cliche.  When in doubt, ask google.  If your sentence (put it in "" quotes) and look at the number of hits.  If your sentence is in a few hundred places, you might want to change it.  You can't reasonably check them all.

If in doubt, go back and ask the person who comment if they can clarify, or give you more input on what the problem is as they see it.  Do be polite, but it's fine to ask for more details or information to explain why they think the way they do.  

I also try and give myself a bit of time between reading a crit and responding.  Most of us have the initial denial that what we wright might be flawed, or flawed in a way we don't perceive.  Give it a few minutes to a day, then read it again and try and ask yourself if what they say sounds like it might be right, or an indication of a problem.  Then read the section and see if it might be true.

It's up to you to determine what you do with the crits, but it is always good to be nice to those who do, since they took the time to read and tell you what they thought.


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## mythique890 (Dec 28, 2011)

I wouldn't worry much about the general archetype of a story being cliche.  After all, good winning out over evil is a plotline that's been around MUCH longer than LOTR... look at classic fairy tales. If you think about the things people _love_ about LOTR, it's not the plot.  The plot is only the framework on which to display the world and characters.  Those are the things people are attached to, and those are the things that I believe other authors have made into cliches in their inadequate attempts to recreate them.  Jordan's plot is similar in a broad sense, but his world and characters are different, so (most) people find it refreshing and new, or at least new enough to enjoy.

I don't know, I guess what I'm getting at is no one cares how many times the same frame is used (i.e., classic story elements and plot at a very basic level), as long as the paintings inside are different in a beautiful and interesting way.


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## eternaldream24 (Dec 29, 2011)

Thanks for the detailed response. I appreciate it. The one thing a few people have pointed out in my story that they say is cliche is the fact that I open with a dream sequence. I might change that though. The other thing is I have my main character say her hands are clammy with sweat and I was told that was cliche. I think maybe if I were to show that more instead of just telling it would be less cliche.

Fantasy is a hard genre to write in, because your always going to have ideas and things cross over.


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## sashamerideth (Dec 30, 2011)

ClichÃ© is the wrong term for a dream sequence opener. It is lazy writing and, unless dreams impact reality, does not change the world or develop character. It can work, but I've heard of agents and publishers discarding a manuscript if it starts with a dream. Kind of a cardinal rule, don't start with a dream.

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## Lord Darkstorm (Dec 30, 2011)

Someone having hands that sweat a lot isn't really cliche, saying they have clammy hands might sound it a bit.  Simple solution is exactly what you said..show it. 

The dream sequence at the start...shoot it and call it a day.  Stories should start in this world, and unless you have something unique about the dreams (like a dream dimension people can visit and speak to others in like Wheel of Time), it will rarely be acceptable to a reader.  My usual response to most dream sequences in published books isn't that great, but fortunately, they are usually rare.


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## Amanita (Dec 30, 2011)

Cliches aren't a problem if used well. You shouldn't overdo it however. If your races, the structure of the world and the conflict all sound like ones already used in another work it will get too far. 
Personally, I don't care much for stories that use all of the Tolkien races in similar places Tolkien has used them himself, but there are people who disagree with this.


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## Androxine Vortex (Dec 30, 2011)

Let me first say that this is an amazing thread and a must read for writers trying to improve. In some aspects, cliches are almost inevitable. For my english class, I did an entire paper about Antagonists and Villains. This branched out from every concept of a malevolent deity to a comic book anti-hero. One cliche that I see alot and hate the most are invlived with the villains, or the antagonists. Too many villains are are just evil for the sake of being evil. There are too many cliches involving the antagonist but if done well, it wont matter. If it is engaging for the reader, it wont matter if this sounds like the same old story because he/she will favor this one. however, my advice is to try and be more original in these things.

I think what makes villains most appealing to me is what I call, "the fall." No one just randomly says, "I'm going to terrorize everyone and declare myself overlord of the Earth!" What makes a great villain is having them seem more human. I'm not saying a villain can't be "evil" and do corrupt things but have them have emotions, have them question what they are doing. A terrible villain is one that acts without reason. A great villain is one who struggles with their choices and the consequences of their actions.

I love reading about villains that "fall." Showing how they were (more or less) normal and through circumstance of events, became corrupt. perhaps they desire to achieve some good goal through any means neccisary, and through those means it costs a great deal of damage and harm. They begin to lose morality and so on. 

Another cliche I hate is Elves and Dwarves. Don't call me a heretic but hear me out! I went to a bookstore and went to the sci-fi/fantasy section. I saw at least forty books that dealt with dwarves and elves. Usually that makes me immedietly become skeptical of the book. I question what makes this book so original? I love fantasy stories, but they are becoming too familiar if you catch my drift. I'm not saying all books with elves and dwarves are bad, but I think it is way too overused.

The only other cliche I have a problem with are the "end of the world" ones. Where something must be done or the world will be destroyed. Someone seeks out a weapon of terrible power and will destroy civilization. Let's make things less apocalyptic. Even if it's "A knight rescues a princess from a dragon." Even though that is a cliche right there, it wasn't "the knight must rescue the princess from the dragon, or else the world will erupt in flames!" Don't get me wrong, adding that "apocalyptic" threat makes the importance of the protagonists role even more crucial, but sometimes it gets too old and not done right.

There, I am done. Time for bed. Goodnight


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## eternaldream24 (Dec 31, 2011)

I have to agree that this is an excellent thread. Especially for people like me who are new to fantasy writing. It helps to learn from more experienced writers. Like the whole dream thing...I didn't know that was taboo. Well my scene isn't a dream per say but to be on the safe side I will change it. I wasn't that fond of my beginning anyway.

This genre is very frustrating to write in. Every other paragraph I write I find myself stopping and thinking "wait was this done before? Is this cliche?" I found this article online of the top fantasy cliche's and it was a list of 150 thing! It would be near impossible not to have at least one "cliche" thing in your story.

But I think its like some of you have said, its how you execute your story and write it that matters. You can be cliche and original at the same time I think.


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## Voldermort (Dec 31, 2011)

Cliche is a help in the first draft phase. Don't try to avoid it else it will block you. Just let it roll out. It's a gift. It's your subconscious telling you that something shoudl be laid out in a particular way. You can always change it later.


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## sashamerideth (Dec 31, 2011)

Don't worry too much, we won't intentionally lead you astray. That assumes of course, we have any idea what we are doing in the first place.

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## Lepton (Jan 1, 2012)

Most fantasy novels tend to be cliche from my experience, which I wouldn't say is a bad thing, as long as there is some originality in the story itself.  

I would consider cliche a bad thing, but that's just my personal opinion.  When a book gets to the point where the plot is so overused that the reader can actually guess what will come next in the story without a second thought is when I myself, know when to discontinue writing something.  To me, that's what cliche is; when the plot has been used so many times before that the reader knows what will come next.  This is similar to the true definition I believe.

I'm not saying that the author needs to be so original that the reader would never know what is to come, because I'm sure this is impossible.


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## Erica (Jan 1, 2012)

There are lots of ways to open a story, but I doubt that very many successful novels have completely unique beginnings. It's certainly true that there have been many over the years that open with dream sequences or flashbacks, but there are also many that open with an action/combat scene, a conversation, a coming of age celebration of some kind, a funeral, an omniscient view of the protagonist that fades into a tighter point of view, or an argument between two characters. Probably the most cliched beginning is a a 'zoomed out' omniscient scene where lots of detail is provided about the weather (it was a dark and stormy night) and nothing about why you should care.

I generally only think of an opening scene as cliched if there's something about it that seems nearly identical to another story I've read or if it feels forced in some way. I think if you write an opening scene with a dream that is interesting, gets the reader to relate to/care about your characters or their situation, and raises the kinds of questions that will make them keep turning the pages, then it's okay.

It's certainly true that no novel, no matter how successful or critically acclaimed will float everyone's boat. And we've all had books that were enthusiastically recommended by a friend who has similar taste to our own that we still can't get into.

In his book On Writing, Stephen King said that 'the tie goes to the author' in cases where half your reviewers like something and half don't


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## Ziggy (Jan 3, 2012)

I agree with Lepton, if your story is too predictable it is not going to be interesting for the reader. That's not like "I know the main character isn't going to die because there is a second book" kind of thing. It's that while you're reading you can identify how the author is setting things up for the plot to take what becomes a predictable path.

Opening with a dream sequence isn't necessarily bad, nothing is necessarily bad. There really aren't any rules for writing a good/bad story.

When considering feedback I suggest taking an overview of it, and not focusing too much on specific points. I wouldn't edit your story as you receive feedback. Complete the whole draft, read the feedback as it comes and when you've completed the whole story then go back and edit it.

And no, you can never please everyone.

IMO, write for yourself, what you think is a good story. Feedback along the lines of "Your plot is cliche, be more original" isn't going to be very helpful to you.


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## eternaldream24 (Jan 4, 2012)

This thread has been immensely helpful, thanks everyone. 
Apparently a couple aspects of my story are "cliche" but I'm not going to let it bother me bc some of the things in my story may have been done before, but not the way that I'm doing them. I'll make sure its cliche yet original.


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