# Personal and Heroic Sacrifices



## TheCrystallineEntity (Oct 30, 2017)

I'm fascinated by what drives people to sacrifice themselves, others, everything they hold dear, for positive or negative reasons, and the consequences thereof; as well as whether heroic sacrifices [in general and not] are truly noble and selfless. 

I'm interested in hearing your opinions on this topic. Though if this initial post is too vague, I can easily provide examples and so forth.


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## Penpilot (Oct 30, 2017)

When I boil it down, the reason is always something very personal that reaches down into the core of that person and drives them one way or the other. That person may give very reasonable surface level rational for what they do, but IMHO it always something very basic on the lowest levels of something like Maslows Hiearchy of Needs.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 2, 2017)

Here's a thought: 
It is worth sacrificing eleven people to save the world? 
That's the main dilemma of my fourth book.


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## WooHooMan (Nov 2, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> Here's a thought:
> It is worth sacrificing eleven people to save the world?



Yes.  I assume that they qualify as part of "the world" so if they didn't get sacrificed, whatever calamity affects the world would affect them as well.  Even if there's no guarantee that the world would be saved, it would still be worth trying the sacrifice as not sacrificing would still be a net negative.
Plus "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and all that.

Looking back at the sacrifices that show-up in my story, it usually has to do with a character upholding their honor or virtue or something.  Like, "I won't be able to live with myself if I didn't make this sacrifice".  That can extend to making a sacrifice for the sake of a loved-one's safety or happiness.
In one story, I explore the idea of "I need to make sacrifices to demonstrate to other people that they should be willing to make sacrifices".


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## skip.knox (Nov 2, 2017)

Just another thought, with no pretensions that it leads anywhere:  villains often think in terms of sacrificing others in some greater cause, even if that cause is nothing more than their own ambition. Also, even if the sacrificer is as noble as all get-out, there will be some who regard the sacrifice as unjustified. No good deed goes unlamented.


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## Penpilot (Nov 3, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> Here's a thought:
> It is worth sacrificing eleven people to save the world?
> That's the main dilemma of my fourth book.



If you're being cold and objective about it, then answer will most likely be yes. But if it were me, storywise I'd take it a bit further. It's easy to sacrifice someone you don't know. it's like hearing about deaths on the nightly news. It can be horrible and saddening, but it doesn't cut too deep. For the most part, it doesn't rock someone to the core.

But it becomes infinitely more difficult if those eleven people are family and friends.

It's kind of like that saying about a million deaths being a statistic and one being a tragedy.


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## Chessie2 (Nov 3, 2017)

11 seems kind of excessive to me.


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## FifthView (Nov 3, 2017)

The dilemma is not in the numbers, but in the question of whether it's the chooser's right to make that decision of who dies.


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## Chessie2 (Nov 3, 2017)

FifthView said:


> The dilemma is not in the numbers, but in the question of whether it's the chooser's right to make that decision of who dies.


Still seems excessive. But what do I know?


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## FifthView (Nov 3, 2017)

Sorry Chessie2 I wasn't responding to your post, just making a general observation.

If I were to write something involving this question of sacrifice, I'd focus more on whether it's the chooser's right to make the decision of who lives or dies. Using a number could influence how any given character might react to the dilemma. Villains typically don't even consider the question, or if they do it's quickly disposed of. Main characters might wrestle with it a lot more, before and after making the decision. Observers might also react toward the person who made that decision in particular ways. Those who are about to die....You get the idea, heh.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

FifthView said:


> The dilemma is not in the numbers, but in the question of whether it's the chooser's right to make that decision of who dies.



I'm very intrigued by this thought, and Skip's of "_villains often think in terms of sacrificing others in some greater cause, even if that cause is nothing more than their own ambition. Also, even if the sacrificer is as noble as all get-out, there will be some who regard the sacrifice as unjustified. No good deed goes unlamented." _

*I don't know how to quote two people in the same reply

This is fascinating. I think, because I tend to lean in the direction of both these thoughts I don't think I would allow my character to make the decision of sacrificing 11 people for "the greater good"... My character would probably think something along the lines of "one innocent sacrifice is one too many" or something  lame like that, and they would do whatever they could to make sure it didn't happen, going to great lengths to find another way.

But at the end of the day that is a personal ethics thing, perhaps.

So basically, I can't answer the question lol.

*Side note: I write for kids though, so there is very little (to no) human/human killing. Human sacrifice is something that may come up for tension purposes but wouldn't ever actually happen


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## FifthView (Nov 3, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> *I don't know how to quote two people in the same reply



Trick: Highlight the portion you want to quote, and a "Reply" button should appear under the highlighted portion. That inserts the highlighted text into the post area. Do this with text from various other members' comments, and voila.


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## Chessie2 (Nov 3, 2017)

FifthView said:


> Sorry Chessie2 I wasn't responding to your post, just making a general observation.
> 
> If I were to write something involving this question of sacrifice, I'd focus more on whether it's the chooser's right to make the decision of who lives or dies. Using a number could influence how any given character might react to the dilemma. Villains typically don't even consider the question, or if they do it's quickly disposed of. Main characters might wrestle with it a lot more, before and after making the decision. Observers might also react toward the person who made that decision in particular ways. Those who are about to die....You get the idea, heh.


Ah yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 

Hm...yeah I'm not sure how to answer this question either. No one sacrifices anyone in my books...it's themselves they sacrifice towards the end. So I've never written anything like this.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

FifthView said:


> Sorry Chessie2 I wasn't responding to your post, just making a general observation.
> 
> If I were to write something involving this question of sacrifice, I'd focus more on whether it's the chooser's right to make the decision of who lives or dies. Using a number could influence how any given character might react to the dilemma. Villains typically don't even consider the question, or if they do it's quickly disposed of. Main characters might wrestle with it a lot more, before and after making the decision. Observers might also react toward the person who made that decision in particular ways. Those who are about to die....You get the idea, heh.



Yes, I think this would be the purpose of including such a thing in a story. It's not so much a _plot_ device as much as it should be a _character arc_ device. A way to show an inner struggle or conflict within a character that propels them forward to choose and act a certain way...


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## FifthView (Nov 3, 2017)

I have occasionally encountered a similar question involving self-sacrifice. For instance, a king who rides into danger and sure death because "It's the only way." Does a leader have the right to choose that death for himself, or does he have a responsibility to stay alive so he can lead his people? Maybe sometimes the question can be put to mothers or fathers of young children. Or lovers.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

Will this help?
The main character's ten sisters were previously sacrificed to become a seal holding a destructive being away, and when the story starts, it's her turn soon. She's never known her sisters, as they were taken away before she really knew them. She chooses [through the pleading of her mother] to run away and discover more about the being, but in the end has to decide for herself whether to become the final seal or not.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

Yes, I do think this is a story conflict that comes up a lot, especially in fantasy. The old "put the oxygen mask over yourself before you put it on your kids" debate. It is for sure one that I'm attracted to, especially in regards to mom's and children. I've asked myself over and over if there was a zombie apocalypse would I leave my autistic daughter locked up alone in the house while I went to find food? Or would I take her with me and risk exposing her to the danger outside? 

Who knows? 

That sort of stuff makes for good story conflict though.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

I was inspired by a quotation from the Claymore manga: "If you act selfishly and end up dying, what are the ones you leave behind supposed to do?" [The English translation is simply: "If you die, what about the ones you leave behind?"]


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> Will this help?
> The main character's ten sisters were previously sacrificed to become a seal holding a destructive being away, and when the story starts, it's her turn soon. She's never known her sisters, as they were taken away before she really knew them. She chooses [through the pleading of her mother] to run away and discover more about the being, but in the end has to decide for herself whether to become the final seal or not.



Ok, yeah, I have almost an exactly similar situation in my WIP. Ten people sacrificed themselves to become a beast that could protect a magical treasure in a magical land. The last person was supposed to use the treasure to help the rest of the people during a great battle and after the battle was over she was supposed to sacrifice herself to seal the gate to the magical land. But she was a coward and she didn't do it, thus leaving the gate open so anything could go in and out.

Weird lol!

Anyway, if it is self sacrifice and the people choose to do it I don't see why that is a problem? I only have a problem if one person is making that choice for ten others.


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## Svrtnsse (Nov 3, 2017)

My main character wrestles with whether to sacrifice his pride in order to secure the future of his best friend and her family.

It turned out to be really tricky to write, because my MC is dead set on sticking to his guns and keeping his pride. This essentially turns him into a big jerk in the eyes of everyone (including himself and the reader) and I had a bit of a hard time figuring out how handle that (hint: save the cat).

The stakes here aren't as high as human lives versus the rest of the world, but they're high enough for the characters involved for it to be a tough decision to make.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

Svrtnsse said:


> My main character wrestles with whether to sacrifice his pride in order to secure the future of his best friend and her family.
> 
> It turned out to be really tricky to write, because my MC is dead set on sticking to his guns and keeping his pride. This essentially turns him into a big jerk in the eyes of everyone (including himself and the reader) and I had a bit of a hard time figuring out how handle that (hint: save the cat).
> 
> The stakes here aren't as high as human lives versus the rest of the world, but they're high enough for the characters involved for it to be a tough decision to make.



Honestly, I love it when sacrifices are more internal and personal like this.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

The thing is, the information about the being is mythical and patchwork-y at best, so part of her journey is finding out what it really is and where it came from.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

yeah, so I guess in a scenario like that I would really consider's FifthView's points about how her not sacrificing herself like the others would create some major inner conflict.
- does she struggle with her choice? how?
- does she have self doubt?
- What repercussions have come from her NOT sacrificing herself? In mine it means the gate is open so people go missing, and monsters are able to come out.

Really think about the inner and outer turmoil that her choice has made and how that could be applied to a character arc that helps drive her choices and actions.


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## Chessie2 (Nov 3, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> Will this help?
> The main character's ten sisters were previously sacrificed to become a seal holding a destructive being away, and when the story starts, it's her turn soon. She's never known her sisters, as they were taken away before she really knew them. She chooses [through the pleading of her mother] to run away and discover more about the being, but in the end has to decide for herself whether to become the final seal or not.


I've read this sort of plot line in fantasy stories before (on a smaller scale but very similar) and it was always tied into how the hero/heroine was the chosen one and they had to save the world, essentially. So...I'd say that if your mc is faced with this task of saving the world, she better take the challenge, otherwise there won't be any story. What could happen is she sacrifices herself but also saves herself and there's loads of conflict that could come from that.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

There's too much that they don't know. One of the characters is skeptical that the world even needs saving, that the being in question is even malevolent at all.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> There's too much that they don't know. One of the characters is skeptical that the world even needs saving, that the being in question is even malevolent at all.



Ok, I'm not really clear on what you are asking? Are you asking for plot help? Or inner conflict help? Or whether we think it's a good idea or not?


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

I'm just clarifying bits of the plot that might be important to mention in the discussion.


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## Chessie2 (Nov 3, 2017)

What truly matters is what your heroine thinks and how she reacts to what's being put on her. If she's the last one to be sacrificed but doesn't want to die because of whatever reasons, this should spark a drive in her to figure out another way to save the world, thus saving herself in the process.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

Ok then, yeah, I think you have a lot of material to work with here for inner and outer conflict and stakes. Ten people killed themselves for a cause they felt was worth killing themselves for, and one girl doesn't do it because she wants to chase the very remote possibility that there may be another way. I like it. I think you can play with her inner struggle about the choice in very interesting ways.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> What truly matters is what your heroine thinks and how she reacts to what's being put on her. If she's the last one to be sacrificed but doesn't want to die because of whatever reasons, this should spark a drive in her to figure out another way to save the world, thus saving herself in the process.



Yep. ^^^^^^ all this.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

Funnily enough, the scene I just wrote awhile ago mirrors our discussion:

_I awaken with a start, but then lie silently in the darkness, pretending to be asleep. I peek out from under a fold in the blanket, and listen. 

We could leave the planet. Aleta is standing in front of the window, and the faint glow of the noxlight outside eerily illuminates their features. Thana, who is hovering beside them, is as calm and unmoved as ever, does not reply. Aleta turns their head a bit to the side, as if looking out of the corner of their eye, despite the permanence of the blindfold. We could go anywhere. The tone of their voice hints towards that course of action.

We could indeed...and in doing so, leave the beings here to their fate. Thana’s voice is perfectly neutral. 

We could still leave, and hide somewhere. Aleta continues, completely undeterred. But whether we leave or stay, will anything change?

The outcome would be the same. There is a heaviness to Thana’s voice that is distinctly unnerving, almost akin to grief.   

    I am greatly disturbed by their words and their tone, and try to escape into sleep. I drift in a light, uncomfortable half-sleep, barely aware of anything around me. In the midst of this seemingly unending, nightmarish state, I am gripped with a sudden conviction: *there must be another way.* I awaken amid a twisted panic, convinced that I somehow slept for three cycle straight, that the Final Sealing is looming over me, that there is nothing I can do. I flail around, helplessly entangled in my blanket, my body blazing, near feverish from my useless struggle. It is like a river that has been blocked for most of my life has finally broken free within me: before, I was a wooden doll, docile and complacent, but now...what am I now? _


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

Yeah, good stuff.


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## Nimue (Nov 3, 2017)

I agree with Chess and Helio that this works—I might add that it would be particularly sympathetic if this character is younger, in mentality or years.  And make sure you give her concrete desires and things to live for, rather than just the idea of living on.

Strangely enough, I have the opposite problem in the plot of my WIP, where someone must sacrifice themselves to complete a countercurse and the heroine has the chance to ask others to share that sacrifice, so that many people would lose a little of their lifespan, rather than one entire life, but she chooses to go to her death instead.  I’m not sure at this point that her motivations hold up—I originally had her almost completely isolated in the third act, but now there’s a point where she’s facing people who care about her and the man she’s trying to save, and she still says nothing.  Part of it is that this is a last-chance effort and she’s not wholly certain splitting the sacrifice will work—there were three other sacrifices of blood and flesh that she faced alone—and part of it is that she’s unwilling to ask others, people with families and communities, to give up part of their lives.  They might also try to stop her, and she needs this ritual to succeed.  She also fears be accused of sorcery and losing their trust—sorcery deals in blood/life taken from unwilling victims (consent is a big theme in this story).  And she’s severely depressed after, for complicated reasons, the last ritual resulted in the curse falling on her lover prematurely, which was one of the main things she was trying to prevent.  It feels like doomsday has already come for her.

Yeesh.  Should probably start a new thread or something.  But I really want to make her choice awful but sympathetic, rather than something the reader is frustrated by.  Feedback is welcome... but I probably won’t know if it works until I’ve written those scenes.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

^My heroine is not quite a child but not quite an adult, either. 

Your story sounds fascinating. It definitely sounds like something I'd like to read.


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## Chessie2 (Nov 3, 2017)

Sacrifices, I think, are more effective if they come from within the characters. It needs to be something that changes them emotionally, spiritually, forever. This change comes from the struggle they endure in the plot. Along the way they continually lose a bit of themselves until they realize they are a different person--for the better. It's one of the reasons why I love writing romances so much. There's nothing more self-sacrificing than giving your life for the one you love. This can happen in many ways but ultimately I think story is about change and sacrifice. There's a delicious one in my WIP that I hope to do justice.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

Nimue said:


> And make sure you give her concrete desires and things to live for, rather than just the idea of living on.



This is very important. Often time the inner conflict is there but the stakes aren't high enough so the choice can come off as not as powerful as it should. She definitely should have a concrete reason for staying, besides just "but there must be another way." Does she have a friend she can't leave? A sibling? A job to do? A promise to keep? In mine the woman is pregnant, so she chooses her baby knowing full well the world is going to go to shit and her baby is likely going to go with it, but she just can't bring herself to harm it.

This is a super important thing to consider.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> ultimately I think story is about change and sacrifice.



Yeah, I had change in my WIP but this thread has really made me deeply analyze the role of sacrifice. I _had _an idea of sacrifice, but after this thread I realize where the weaknesses are and why it was bugging me so much.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

^My heroine's actually planning on leaving to find answers, not staying,


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> ^My heroine's actually planning on leaving to find answers, not staying,



No, I mean a concrete reason NOT to sacrifice herself. I don't mean to stay. I get that she is leaving to find answers. 

She makes the choice not to sacrifice herself. She makes the choice to leave, instead, and go find answers. 

There needs to be a concrete reason why. External stakes. Something she loves and is connected to. Simply a "feeling" of "there has to be another way" is not enough. There needs to be a visceral, personal reason why she chooses to go after a mythical story instead of doing what everyone else believes is right.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

Oh, now I get it, thanks.


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## Chessie2 (Nov 3, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> ^My heroine's actually planning on leaving to find answers, not staying,


That's really good! Sounds like an adventure.  Yes, this is what you want. She must search for answers on her own and slowly change towards the right decision for the greater good (at least, if that's how you want to write it). 



Heliotrope said:


> Yeah, I had change in my WIP but this thread has really made me deeply analyze the role of sacrifice. I _had _an idea of sacrifice, but after this thread I realize where the weaknesses are and why it was bugging me so much.


From within. Within. 

If you'll allow me to indulge for a moment, the hero in the Forest Lord (Omarion) is widowed and was very much in love with his wife. He remarries (enter the heroine) and struggles emotionally with his physical desires as well as remaining faithful and loyal to his dead wife. As we know, elves are loyal creatures. This is huge for him. He must produce an heir, which is actually a minimal part of the story but enough that he understands his responsibility as a husband. Anyway, there's a big problem going on in their city of a magical nature. No one can resolve the issue. There is, however, a solution to save the lives of the citizens. For that he needs the heroine. He starts out by using her, giving her what she wants (a relationship) in order to pursue this bigger goal. What ends up happening is he slowly loses the values he once thought/held dear. Being faithful to dead wife starts to become being faithful to his living wife. He struggles big time with betrayal of his beliefs and the memory of his deceased spouse. The conflict ends up happening when he realizes he's fallen in love with the heroine but she discovers he's been using her and never intended on actually giving her his heart. He sacrifices himself for his people but ends up sacrificing himself for HER and just doesn't know it until it's too late. Her thing is an entirely different matter altogether.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> That's really good! Sounds like an adventure.  Yes, this is what you want. She must search for answers on her own and slowly change towards the right decision for the greater good (at least, if that's how you want to write it).
> 
> 
> From within. Within.
> ...



*sigh* Getting some major feels right now.

I actually just bookmarked that post. I love that we can do that now. It had so much useful stuff in it. Thank you so much for sharing Chessie!


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## Chessie2 (Nov 3, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> *sigh* Getting some major feels right now.


Lol it's taken me months to figure out that conflict. Literally feeling my way through the plot then backtracking, setting the novel aside to write something else, coming back to it and feeling it out more, backtracking and writing something else...etc. Finally it just came to me one day. From within. It had to come from him and her conflict comes from her (she has issues being second wife). Anyway, don't know if that example helped anyone. When the conflict is interior it drives exterior plot quite a lot.


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## Nimue (Nov 3, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> That's really good! Sounds like an adventure.  Yes, this is what you want. She must search for answers on her own and slowly change towards the right decision for the greater good (at least, if that's how you want to write it).
> 
> 
> From within. Within.
> ...



Oh, you know I like hearing about this story... It’s not clear though, what he ends up sacrificing?  Is it a choice between her and his people, or between her and the memory of his dead wife alone?  If that’s not too deep/spoilery to share.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

yeah, I added above that I bookmarked that post. It was super helpful. My novel has been on the back burner for months because I just couldn't get a handle on that inner conflict and how it leads to change. I've been dabbling in other, random, way less interesting stuff, but I kept coming back to my novel with fresh eyes. I'm finally breaking through now, but it has taken some time and your post just really solidified for me what was missing.


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## Chessie2 (Nov 3, 2017)

Nimue said:


> Oh, you know I like hearing about this story... It’s not clear though, what he ends up sacrificing?  Is it a choice between her and his people, or between her and the memory of his dead wife alone?  If that’s not too deep/spoilery to share.


It's interior. What he sacrifices is vulnerability. Not wanting to be hurt again, not wanting to betray the memory of his dead wife, not wanting to give himself physically to another woman are all ways he's holding himself back from relationship, from being vulnerable. But vulnerable is what Elenaril needs and also what he needs. Vulnerability is what allows for a healthy, loving relationship. It's the key to honoring the covenant of marriage (which is a common thread in all my stories and ultimately what you could define as my brand).


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

My heroine is currently asking big questions about love and life. It's like she learning a whole new way of thinking [in a way, she is]. I'm still working on giving her something/someone to live for, though. There's only three beings that she is actually close to: her two guardian spirits, and her mother.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

Nearly 5,000 words into the story, the heroine is finally setting off on her adventure.


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## Nimue (Nov 3, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> It's interior. What he sacrifices is vulnerability. Not wanting to be hurt again, not wanting to betray the memory of his dead wife, not wanting to give himself physically to another woman are all ways he's holding himself back from relationship, from being vulnerable. But vulnerable is what Elenaril needs and also what he needs. Vulnerability is what allows for a healthy, loving relationship. It's the key to honoring the covenant of marriage (which is a common thread in all my stories and ultimately what you could define as my brand).


This is one of those classic romance arcs that speaks to human nature and the nature of relationship.  I’ve no doubt it will create a compelling story.



TheCrystallineEntity said:


> My heroine is currently asking big questions about love and life. It's like she learning a whole new way of thinking [in a way, she is]. I'm still working on giving her something/someone to live for, though. There's only three beings that she is actually close to: her two guardian spirits, and her mother.


Perhaps the desire to be with these people is enough, if they’re given strong characters.  But there are other possibilities, like a deep love of art, of exploring the world, something she’s not willing to give up.  However, the more human and identifiable you make these desires, the farther the reader will go with the character.  Love and family are the strongest motivations for that reason.

There’s another place in my story that I’ve been struggling with, and it’s something I hesitate to post on this forum, but maybe if I bury it in this thread and ask you guys...  In the plot I described, one of the earlier sacrifices the heroine makes is her own unborn child.  I have searched and searched for a different place to take the storyline, but nothing fits thematically in the same way.  It’s midsummer, and the offering to the Goddess-as-Mother is the first fruits of summer given up to the earth...twisted by those who cast the curse when they sacrificed the unborn child of an unwilling mother.  Only a sacrifice of the same strength can undo it, but it must be willing. This brings up issues of family, her character flaw being self-isolation, and the aftermath tightens the hero and heroine’s difficult relationship.  They would want to have a child if circumstances were different.  The heroine has only lately realized she’s pregnant, and the thing is that she doesn’t feel that she can have this child regardless—it would be under the same curse that its father is under, which she is trying to lift with these sacrifices.  As the village greenwitch, she has access to abortifacients.  It isn’t the ending of the pregnancy that bothers me, but the idea of getting something out of it, magical or otherwise...  I would try my best to write this in a serious and sensitive way, but is this completely in poor taste?  Is this something you could never read in a million years?  I’ve gone over it so many times in my head that I no longer know what to think...


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

Yeah, like Chessie's story, the "tangible" thing doesn't necessarily have to be a person, it could be an ideal connected to a dead person. The old "my mother instilled in me _insert ideal here _trope" is an old and worn one, but it's one example of how you might use a dead mother as a tangible reason for not sacrificing herself. Maybe her mother always believed finding another way... maybe the heroine has a personal memory of her mother always working so hard to make ends meet for the family, even when they thought there was no possible way. Maybe she has a singular memory of a bad winter (getting very close to cliche territory but this is merely for example lol) and the family is starving and they were dangerously close to having to split up and go to a workhouse or something equivalent in your world. But the mother refused. No. Splitting up is not an option. Walking away from this is not an option. There is always another way. And she found one. 

You get the idea. There is a deep ideal instilled in the MC. A tangible one. A real life memory that she clings to about her dead mother and that ideal is what drives her to make a different choice than the others.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

Nimue said:


> It isn’t the ending of the pregnancy that bothers me, but the idea of getting something out of it, magical or otherwise... I would try my best to write this in a serious and sensitive way, but is this completely in poor taste? Is this something you could never read in a million years? I’ve gone over it so many times in my head that I no longer know what to think...



it is an uncomfortable for sure, but not poor taste IMO. I actually really like that it is so controversial and points to the severity of this curse and the stakes that are necessary to undo it. I read a quote once (and I really don't want to start an anti-abortion/pro-life debate) that went along the lines of: 

"If you had to choose between saving the life of one living five year old, or a hundred frozen foetus' which would you pick?" 

I mean seriously. Tough choice. But tough choices make good fiction.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

^^^It doesn't seem tasteless at all to me.

^^That's a neat idea. Though her mother's still alive and accompanying her on her 'quest', as it were, and her mother is a single parent family [literally].


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

Ok, well then there is her personal reason to stay? Maybe her mother needs her in some way?


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

Well, there's the fact that without her, her mother would be all alone. [The MC actually considers this in my latest scene.]


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

But why does her mother _need _her to go? It is a necessity. If the mother could just go and the book would have the same result, then what is the point of the MC? 

This is how all the early drafts of my chapters look lol. Thought. Question. Bit of dialogue. Bit of expo. More questions. 

Example: 

_She can’t go to the cops, or her dad will be charged for kidnapping and theft. She has to investigate herself. This is where the journalist part comes in. Put your investigator hat on and start searching. The first place to the search would be the museum.

For the first time I realized that I couldn’t stand by and watch my life like it was a TV. I couldn’t tie up my hair and turn my chin a certain way like the reporters on the screen and pretend that everything happening around me was merely news. Something to be reported on but nothing I actually had to be involved in.

Ok good. I like that. 

Unless she HAS To make the choice to go to school. What would force her to go to school? Equipment? There is something at the school she needs? Kade. She needs him to do as much investigating as he can on Mary Read and her missing baby.

Ok, so then she has to know in advance his skills with a computer. Move that scene up a bit? To chapter two? Or it could happen after class? When she gets in the fight with Jacob? – Possibility.

Ok, so she goes to the school to find Kade and ask him to investigate while she goes to the museum. Why would he do it for her? What could she use as leverage?

But they get caught, and thankfully Mary is right there, waiting for her.... _

It is constant for me.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

If the MC doesn't leave the village, she will be [forcibly] taken and sacrificed by her grandparents. If her mother doesn't leave the village, she would likely be chosen as a desperate substitute.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

And if they both leave who will take their place?


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## Nimue (Nov 3, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> it is an uncomfortable for sure, but not poor taste IMO. I actually really like that it is so controversial and points to the severity of this curse and the stakes that are necessary to undo it. I read a quote once (and I really don't want to start an anti-abortion/pro-life debate) that went along the lines of:
> 
> "If you had to choose between saving the life of one living five year old, or a hundred frozen foetus' which would you pick?"
> 
> I mean seriously. Tough choice. But tough choices make good fiction.


Thanks Helio, that makes me feel a little better... I don’t want to get into the politics either, as for one thing the pre-medieval concept of pregnancy is complex and different from our own, and as this happens prior to her quickening the heroine views it more as the potential for life rather than a life.  But she feels the loss strongly afterwards, the death of the possibility of a family.  She was raised alone by her beloved adoptive mother, and realizes at this point after years of dreading pregnancy that she wants to have that same relationship one day with a child of her own. I really want to be respectful to real-world experiences and at the same time be true to this character and her worldview.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

No one will. It's explained why it can only be members of the MC's family early in the story. As a result, a massive hunt will begin once their absence is discovered.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

Yeah, I don't think she every really needs to get over it. It was a sucky choice. It's a sucky choice for all women put in that position. It's not ever going to be okay. I think so long as you address that you are good.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

Ok, what are the repercussions of not sealing the gate? Is there a time line to doomsday or something?


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## Nimue (Nov 3, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> Well, there's the fact that without her, her mother would be all alone. [The MC actually considers this in my latest scene.]


Fewer stories focus on looking after your parents as a character motivation, but as a childless person whose parents are getting older, that is a strong relationship for me, and one worth exploring.  How horrible would it feel letting harm come to your own mother, even if she’s sacrificing herself for you?  I could never face that...


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

^^Yes: the destructive being [named the Sacrificer by the MC's grandfather; oh, the irony] was temporarily imprisoned ages ago before the story begins, and without making the seal permanent, it is [assumed] that the being will escape and lay waste to the planet.

^Me, neither.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

Ok, cool. Yeah, looking after the mom is a good motivator, if you find a way to make the mom need looking after. If she is like Sarah Connor's it's not going to work lol.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

I actually haven't given a lot of thought as to what the MC's mother is like. I'll be sure to explore that.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 3, 2017)

Speaking of tragic stories of daughters and mothers I was bawling my eyes out on episode four of Stranger Things last night  

There are many directions you could take that relationship for sure. 

My story is about the relationship between the MC and her dad. She is 12 and just getting into that stage of adolescence when you realize you parents aren't as invincible as you thought they were. Suddenly they become "human" and embarrassing and gross and the vulnerability you suddenly feel about having "human" parents makes the world not seem quite so safe. When her dad get's taken away by the antagonist she has to go after him and rescue him (a bit like A Wrinkle In Time) and the struggle of her having to rescue the person she always thought would be there to protect her is just too much for her little 12 year old brain.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 3, 2017)

The heroes are off on their quest at last. Their first destination: The library in the huge city a fair distance from their village.


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## Penpilot (Nov 3, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> My heroine is currently asking big questions about love and life. It's like she learning a whole new way of thinking [in a way, she is]. I'm still working on giving her something/someone to live for, though. There's only three beings that she is actually close to: her two guardian spirits, and her mother.



Playing a little catch up on this thread. Yeah, I agree that the mother seems to be a very good option as a reason for her your MC to want to live. One question, what happened to her father? I'm assuming he's dead. I ask because one thing that comes to mind--and feel free to quietly slip this into the trash if you like--is she made a promise to him to take care of her mother. Add to that maybe the mother is sick in someway, and if your MC dies, there will be no one to take care of her, at least not in the way she does. 

And throughout their journey, you can show this relationship and how she is the only one who can take care of her mother properly, and why she needs to live. The sickness can also add an obstacle to deal with as they run from the hunting parties. Forgive me if I'm sticking my nose in. Garbage can is to the left.



TheCrystallineEntity said:


> No one will. It's explained why it can only be members of the MC's family early in the story. As a result, a massive hunt will begin once their absence is discovered.



Couldn't the grandparents be sacrificed instead? They're family, no?

It's funny as I read this thread, a lot of the posters are working on stories that explore the theme of sacrifice. It's a major part of the novel I'm working on. I framed one of the broad story questions as "What would a father sacrifice in order to do their job?" it just so happens that my two MC's jobs are "Tyrant-Overlord" and "Rebel leader".

It sounds a little silly, but it's a serious story told from the POV of those two fathers. One starts as the villain and the other the hero, but as the story unfolds, the two characters creep towards switching places as each begins to answer the question "What would they sacrifice and why?"


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## pmmg (Nov 3, 2017)

I’d been eyeing this one for a day or so, wanting to jump in, but life is busy. The idea of what turns inside of one to choose a sacrifice, is a profoundly human, and sometimes godly one. What would we sacrifice ourselves for, or what have we already made sacrifices for. I know there are some in me, and it would be a great undertaking to capture that well in a story.

I think there many things that might make one make sacrifices. Love, of course. And a sense of duty. I think these two are the most prominent. A sense of doing what it right and just. And maybe just living up to expectations. (If I was going darker, it could be just to not be a burden to others). People, however, will do many incredible things for others if the connection and the need is there. Many soldiers will sacrifice themselves for the sake their comrades, only because they have an understanding of what it means if they don’t, and because doing such becomes necessary and will hopefully bring about a greater good. And many many people make sacrifices, large and small, everyday because of the ones they love and the ones they feel an obligation for.

If you are writing this, I think you must grip the reader with the stakes, the necessity of the choice, and the difficulty of it what may be lost. Who wants their climatic sacrifice to be easy, and elicit no tears right? If you going to have a heroic sacrifice, you gotta have a whole rest of the story that leads up to it, and brings the loss to the reader, and to the other characters as well.

Your question: Is it worth sacrificing eleven people to save the world…

Well maybe. I could reason this out to be…if the world is lost anyway, are not these eleven lost with it? And so, they are sacrificed either way.

This sounds a little like the train question. Five people are on a set of tracks and don’t see a train coming. You can divert the train to another track where only one person is upon the tracks and will be killed, all you must do is pull a lever? Do you?

And then the question changes, suppose you can only divert the train by pushing a very heavy man into its path, killing him, but saving the others? Would you?

Easy enough if I was the fat man, and I could sacrifice myself, but it’s a little harder if I have to choose to sacrifice someone else.

Your story, though, has some unknown sisters who are being sacrificed, and I don’t feel any resonance with that.

The question your character is having though is ‘is anything gained by the sacrifice?’ So I can see them having this question, and perhaps spending a long time on it. Maybe there is no need to sacrifice themselves or the eleven. I guess that is where you have ask what do you want your story to be about? If the sacrifice is unnecessary, or brings about an undesired outcome, than it should be refused.

What if after all of your character’s searching, they still are posed the same question, and still have no answers by which to definitively decide? Then they must make a real choice, and that would be a great place to be at the end of your story.


I think the other story being asked about, the ending of sacrificing the unborn would not be worthy. Isn’t that Dostoevsky’s question? ‘Would we sacrifice one innocent to have a perfect world?’

I have issues with that ending. The character is sacrificing another, innocent and having expressed no will, for their more perfect world. I don’t think they would deserve it. I think their sacrifice would be superficial, and not of themselves. In some type of cosmic justice, I don’t think whatever was affording the ending they would want, would supply it. I can understand the personal struggle the character may have, and I am sure they can have much anguish over it, but agreeing to sacrifice another and just live with the bad feelings is not enough for a world of happily ever after. The way it is presented, that a good thing was made bad by a twisted sacrifice, and another twisted sacrifice is required to undo it, does not fit. Two wrongs making a right. I think the character needs to make a more noble decision. And undo the curse by setting things right, not doing more of the same. Just my two cents.


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## Nimue (Nov 3, 2017)

pmmg said:


> I think the other story being asked about, the ending of sacrificing the unborn would not be worthy. Isn’t that Dostoevsky’s question? ‘Would we sacrifice one innocent to have a perfect world?’
> 
> I have issues with that ending. The character is sacrificing another, innocent and having expressed no will, for their more perfect world. I don’t think they would deserve it. I think their sacrifice would be superficial, and not of themselves. In some type of cosmic justice, I don’t think whatever was affording the ending they would want, would supply it. I can understand the personal struggle the character may have, and I am sure they can have much anguish over it, but agreeing to sacrifice another and just live with the bad feelings is not enough for a world of happily ever after. The way it is presented, that a good thing was made bad by a twisted sacrifice, and another twisted sacrifice is required to undo it, does not fit. Two wrongs making a right. I think the character needs to make a more noble decision. And undo the curse by setting things right, not doing more of the same. Just my two cents.


The feeling that two wrongs don't make a right is very much something I've debated with myself.  Not only in that instance, but for all the sacrifices: blood, miscarriage, torture, and death.  How can this be justified?  The goddess figure is not meant to be all goodness and light, more of a force of nature, of balance, life and death in cycle, but I would be lying if I said she wasn't portrayed sympathetically in the story.  The heroine believes in this goddess and the way of life she represents.  To put this plot into context, the curse has been on the land for generations, hundreds of years, and has banished the gods from the earth, blighting the land, which in an agrarian society means thousands have already been faced with hardship, starvation, and disease.  The heroine has been fighting this blight her entire life, and now has a remarkable chance to end it, holding power and knowledge that no one else has possessed.  At stake is the man she loves, her own freedom or even life, as by law she will be burned as a witch outside of her protected home, and the lives of many of her friends who are also gifted with magic.

I think the question you asked Crystal applies, with some tweaking: what if there is no other way?  If she does not do this now, is she only passing the burden on to a future generation, or guaranteeing the gods will weaken further and will never be able to intervene again?  Something of what's going on in her mind.  Perhaps most importantly--personal politics aside--the character sees the pregnancy as a seed of life at this point, part of her body, and hers to give up.  Having miscarried multiple times before, she cannot even be sure that it would survive.  And she is unwilling to bring a child into the world that would be under threat as she is, and also cursed to be possessed, their mind erased, once their father dies and passes on the curse.  There was no chance that she would carry this pregnancy to term.  But it does still bother me on some level.  And I understand that this would be a deal breaker for many readers, which is why it's good to have the chance to discuss it.  My aim is to make this choice understandable and sympathetic in context, if only for the target audience of the book.  If this ever makes it in front of readers.  Probably not, and this argumentation may very well be moot...

All that in-fiction justification aside, maybe the better question is why I'm writing the story this way.  Thematically, the story is one where people are pushed by desperation to self-sacrifice but pulled back from the brink by those who love them, where the heroine's arc is resolved by understanding that she doesn't need to carry her burdens alone.  The pregnancy causes the character to reflect on her desire for family, what she has already lost, and the hope she has to lose.  It would feel false to make the sacrifices easy, or give them a loophole. Someone has to pay the price to right the world.  I can imagine a story where the curse is lifted by unequivocally good and beautiful acts, but it would have very different themes and characters.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 4, 2017)

Woah, big replies.
Okay: Penpilot: No, the MC has no father because her mother gave birth to her and her sisters literally all by herself [it's an ancient Hyperion motherhood technique, as almost everyone on the planet was female at its beginning].
Her grandparents can't be sacrificed because they're the ones to initiate the ritual. [I'll have to add that explanation.] 

The heroes have crossed the first threshold, as it were: en-route to the nearest library, they encounter the MC's grandmother, Lan, who stands in their way.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 4, 2017)

It sounds like you are off to the races pushing your plot forward. It also sounds like you have many unique world building ideas. Just remember that plot and world building alone will not create a compelling story. Try to find a way to make her motive for searching for answers very personal, and use the inner conflict of choosing to not sacrifice herself to build her character arc and you will have something readers want to read. 

Good luck!


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 4, 2017)

In the next bit [Part 2, to be precise], there is a big debate with the MC's grandmother [Lan] and second grandfather [Yukyn]. Since the prospect of talking their way out is very slim indeed, the heroes will either run away, or the MC's guardian spirit [the blindfolded one] will use some magic to aid their escape.
^I'll keep that in mind as I write. part of the journey might be the MC discovering something/someone to live for along the way, since it's still a relatively new concept to her.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 5, 2017)

I just wrote a four paged, utterly ridiculous scene that has nothing to do with the rest of the story in which the heroes [through magic] are teleported to the cottage of my author avatar. I have no idea what to do about it. 
But in other news, the main character's guardian spirits are gone, and she alone has to help her mother as they climb the mountain hiding the seal holding the Sacrificer back.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 5, 2017)

On a somewhat related note, I have such a hard time balancing comedy and drama. I'm ever so slightly envious that Doctor Who pulls it off so spectacularly.


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## pmmg (Nov 6, 2017)

I think they need a new goddess...but its not my story.

I am not up on all the sacrifices that have been made in your story, so I would not know how to comment on those, but miscarriage seems misplaced to me, as that is not even voluntary. How can blood, torture and death be justified? Well, if it is acceptable to the goddess, than the goddess should questioned. If they are the result of some evil power taking over and pushing the goddess out, than they cannot be justified, but they may still happen. Perhaps for a reason, but it’s still something along the lines of a lessor of two evils.

I am sorry your character sees so little hope for the world that she would rather the life inside her be dead than live to grow up in it, but I question strongly the concept of sacrifice here. I don’t think the one being sacrificed has made a free choice, and so I don’t think the sacrifice would count. In fact, I think it is more like, she murders one, calls it sacrifice, and expects a better world for it.

If I may, for the sake of discussion, and taking it away from the value of life in the womb, let’s suppose instead she had already given birth and the child was just a year old. Now the sacrifice is kill that little one for a better tomorrow for she and her friends, should she do it? I would find that decision not hers to make, because the sacrifice is not hers. The infant should decide, which it most likely can't, and so it cannot make a sacrifice. She may decide for it, but it is not sacrificing itself for the good of all, it is being sacrificed (murdered) for the good all. What worthy God or Goddess would accept that? Why should I (if I were the goddess) benefit a murderous people with peace and harmony? I would not think the mother character worthy of more blessings for acting in such a selfish way. I think the mother ought to say, 'no, take me instead...' or 'Ain't happenin', but not give it up.

If she did, and was rewarded, I would think the gods must be evil. If worshipping gods means I must destroy my family and kill innocent life, than maybe its best if those gods didn't come back.


Does this infant have any other quality that would make its being sacrificed sufficient to be worthy for all? I would not know the answer.


Just about every story I have written would equate to moot, but we write them anyway. If not this one, than maybe the next. We get better, grow our skills, and tell better and better tales. So, that it might be moot does not make it unworthy of discussion. As an author, you get to make story go anyway you like. And if the story you want to tell is about sacrificing an innocent to bring back a better age, than I am sure it can be written well. I am just one voice in the wind. If I was to read this story, I am not sure how I would parse through it and not come to a similar way of looking at it, but many others may not see it the same way. So, I am sure there will be some who will take to it. The question is, what story to you want to share, and more personally, why?


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## Nimue (Nov 6, 2017)

I don't believe a two-month-old fetus and a one-year-old child are at all equivalent.  A fetus at that point in development is not conscious and can't survive outside the woman's body, and for that reason it is her choice to keep or give up.  Countless women have chosen to terminate pregnancies rather than have a child they can't provide for or bring a child into an abusive or dangerous environment, and I have nothing but respect for that. I'm not remotely interested in having that debate.

And I would not have the same difficulty telling a story along those lines--the problem for me is bringing this fantasy element into it, moving the stakes and motivation into a context that doesn't have a real-world parallel.  No one has to end a pregnancy in order to save someone else's life, or improve the lives of an entire country's population.  It doesn't make instinctive ethical sense.  And I partially understand you in that, in fiction, you want everything to work out, you would want her to be able to change the world and have the child she grows to realize she wants, but in this story, the chance for her to have that child is gone forever.  And I think I do want to tell that story, I want to have her wrestle with and grieve her decision, I want to have that affect her relationship, I want to show her lover doing his best to understand and support her, and one of the other characters will reject her decision and call it sorcery, though all of her sacrifices are sorcery to him, and I want to show the argument that results, because...  I do want to reflect what I believe in my writing.  In the same way that I'm drawn towards writing kind, consensual romance and support for characters who have gone through trauma, I believe that portraying something like this as a personal sacrifice and not "murder" is important.  I just don't want it to feel like a plot device or manipulative or otherwise insensitive and untruthful.  In all likelihood, again, this story is just one for myself, one for me to learn how to write with, and maybe it doesn't matter very much what the average reader would think.

To bring this onto easier ground, maybe I should clarify some things about the goddess and what she's asking for.  In this story gods are neither omniscient, omnipotent, nor omnipresent--they are much more like very powerful beings who have given up physical form.  The sorceress who was the architect of the original curse was very close to a goddess, and with the support of the misled ancient druids, was able to trap the goddess and her pantheon of gods into accepting these unwilling sacrifices, tainting the land and shutting the gods off from the people, and the people from the gods.  The concept is that as magic comes from life--upon death, this magic returns to the Veil, and the creation of new life brings magic into the earth again--nothing is stronger magic than human blood, fertility, pain, death, and so nothing but that can counter the curse.  In an ideal situation, these acts of brutality would not be repeated, but the sacrifice could be spared from a community of people--all the druids, everyone willing, so hundreds of people giving a drop of blood each, a fraction of their fertility, a moment's pain, a season of their lifespan.  Insofar as some suffering is needed to lift the curse, that's what the goddess would want.

However, the heroine summons her alone, determined to spill her own blood.  The Goddess-as-Maiden, in a weakened form that cannot remember the rest of the sacrifices, accepts this offering, as it is willing and pure, but exhorts her to share the burden of the trials to come.  She's close to human in her decisions here.  The heroine at this point believes blood is all that's necessary, and the next sacrifice comes as a shock.  In fact, the goddess had a hand in her conceiving, tilted the scales, though an interruption in her contraception made it possible (it's complicated.)  Without this, the closest sacrifice would have been her fertility, and the goddess feared she would take that. (This was one of the other possibilities I was considering for this sacrifice, that she gives up the ability to have children.  But it was more abstract, less resonant with the character at this point, and while it does affect her relationship, not in the same way.  I'm still considering it.  Wonder if that would be considered as "immoral").  The choice is set before her, the goddess does plead with her to think, tell her that there would be other chances.  She makes her choice, and will eventually make the choice to give up her own life--though someone else steps in to take that sacrifice from her.

I know this is largely rambling and unlikely to change anyone's mind, but in a way it's been helpful to express my reasoning and the goals of this storyline.  So thank you, for that.


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## pmmg (Nov 7, 2017)

Nimue,

What you believe, and what I believe, I am sure is something we could delve into if we chose, and might be a good exercise in some context, but I am pretty sure the forum rules would not want us too. You say, you don’t want to debate, I am not debating you. You are free to believe as you will (as you always are). I am looking at this, I think, from the context of your story, and the mythos surrounding it.

Here is the logic I am looking at it with:

Something happened. A woman had her preborn baby taken from her against her will. It perverted some type of magic and caused the gods to be separated causing problems.

I have to ask, why would that matter? That preborn life must matter. It must have value. Or is it only the woman's anguish that it was an unwanted forcible removal that is the problem, or in other words, if the first woman was okay with it, the curse would never have been cast? I thought it must be that the life taken had value. Something beyond just the anguish of the first woman.

Story moves along and woman 2 is now making a sacrifice of similar value. Well, here again, I am asking why is it of value? If it is of no value, nothing has been sacrificed (which is kind of what the thread is about). If it is of small value, not equivalent to another life, then it must have been from the start, and that does not speak to something that would be powerful magic, or that the gods don’t demand very much from their sacrifices.

I think in the context of your story, there must be equivalency, or there really is no sacrifice that is of any real value. In which case, I do think losing her fertility would actually be a more worthy sacrifice, because the character has actually given up something. As I read it now, its kind of like a Disney movie, where the faithful character get killed on screen and everyone gives a tear and then we find out it's not really true, the injured character is not really dead and springs back up. So she gives up something of little value, and just gets to make it again sometime further down the road. That does not seem like a very heavy cost.

So in the one case, the character is sacrificing something of value (equivalent? see posts above), which I question makes the woman character worthy of any benefit for it (though the newest post has me asking questions of the goddess instead), or, she is not sacrificing much of anything, in which case I question why this would have any power at all?

I did take this to mean she was doing something to save the world. You had stated that it would mean the gods would return and end some type of bad living condition they all suffer under. I do see that as needing to be powerful magic, separating the gods from the world, and requiring a powerful reversal.

I am trying to make sense of the last paragraph. As I read it, it seems the woman character thought she would give some blood and satisfy the goddess, but instead, the goddess caused her to miscarry, something she was unaware would happen, and took that as the sacrifice.

I find I am questioning what is the sacrifice? Who's will was imposed, and upon whom? What was lost? And was there really a sacrifice? A sacrifice by those unknowing would not seem to be sacrifice to me. It is something else.

I think, if you are going to go for a sacrifice as a theme of the story, the woman has to make one, knowing the consequence, and it should be something she loses, not something with little value, or she causes something else to lose. Though, I am not sure sacrifice is really an important theme in this.

But as I said before. Who cares what I think? If your story does not benefit from the thought exercise, don’t use it. We don’t have to see things the same way. Though, I do thank you for the puzzle.

Anyway, I'm going to let this one go, as I am sure to continue will brush up against the rules sooner or later. If you, (or anyone else, I suppose), would like to continue, I do have a PM box. Otherwise, thread is open. I will leave the rest of it to others.


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## psychotick (Nov 7, 2017)

Hi,

I think it always has to come back to the one making the sacrifice. What are their values / goals / fears. You asked is it worth it to sacrifice eleven to save a world. The question you should have asked in my view is - is it worth it to the character? This isn't a mathematical question.

And for most people I would guess the issue comes down to what they would lose and what they would save. Oddly all people's lives are not the same to people. For example if you're old and ill the sacrifice might not be so great for you as it would have been when you were young and fit with your whole life ahead of you. Likewise if you believe in heaven etc the sacrifice becomes easier.

On the other side I think it's more likely that someone would choose to sacrifice themselves for something personal - eg family - than some nebulous thing like "the world". So bring it back to the character's own situation. Kill themselves because the world might end if they don't? Or because if the world ends their own loved ones end.

Not wanting to make this a religious debate at all but consider the reason for Jesus allowing himself to be crucified. If you remember the story, Jesus was fleeing the crucifixion, running through the Garden of Gethsemane. Now at the time he knew he was the son of God etc, that he would be reborn, and that he would save mankind etc etc. And he probably had a great many arguments running through his head at the time - human justifications for not wanting to be crucified even if it would save mankind. So he'd made his decision. Then his disciple cut the ear off a Roman soldier in the garden and the maths changed. In an instant it wasn't the choice between saving the world and living, it was between saving one soldier / healing him and living. Different maths different decision.

That's where your story has to go. Into the head of your character. If you want her to sacrifice herself, you have to find the thing that she values above and beyond her own life. If you want her to run, you have to show that she values her own life beyond them.

As an aside a few years ago I wrote Dragon which was a sci fi space opera of one man's sacrifice. A slow self destruction of a man as he sacrificed all that he was not even to save his family, but to find out what had happened to them. He assumed they were dead, he just had to know what had happened. To most of us looking in on him that would not be sane - and indeed he probably wasn't by any conventional metric. But to him every sacrifice he made along the way, even though it drove him closer to death, was worth it. Based purely on his need to know, and his feeling of survivor guilt for not having been there when his family disappeared. His belief that he might have been able to save them.

I should mention that writing that book was an emotional thing for me - getting into my character's head space. But I think if you're going to write this sort of stuff, that's where you need to go.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Nimue (Nov 7, 2017)

pmmg, it's difficult to parse what you're saying, but it's clear we have fundamentally separate ways of looking at this.  The heroine is suffering and losing the potential to have this child--that is her sacrifice.  And yes, it makes all the difference that the first woman was unwilling, as that violence against her corrupted the magic and prevented the gods from intervening.  Consent versus violence is a theme in the story that ties into the heroine's background.  That sacrifice, even if given willingly, would never have been ordinarily accepted by the goddess, only in this scenario where there is no other choice.  You seem to be saying that if it's not fully equal to a living child, a pregnancy has no value, which is untrue in anyone's perspective.  It has value to the woman carrying it.  Is the sacrifice of blood meaningless because she doesn't permanently have anemia afterwards? She still suffers for it and is traumatized by it.  That isn't "nothing".

Sorry for derailing your thread, Crystal, I hope you go the answers you were looking for.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 7, 2017)

^That's quite alright! This is very interesting. 

In the next two parts, i explore what happened before the Sacrificer [main 'antagonist' but not really] became what they are as a result of having to give up the person they cherished most. It's quite exciting; sort of like a start of darkness tale, but not quite. [There's twists along the way.]


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 10, 2017)

In a conversation with her mother, the main character learns that her ten sisters [and possibly other children before them] were sacrificed for nothing. The implications thereof are discussed.


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## Chessie2 (Nov 10, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> In a conversation with her mother, the main character learns that her ten sisters [and possibly other children before them] were sacrificed for nothing. The implications thereof are discussed.


I'm curious what sort of consequences your mc ends up facing? That sounds really interesting.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 11, 2017)

Oh, there's consequences all over the place, not just for the MC, but also the MC's grandparents, who have been blindly following the tradition for ages. The above idea is so horrific for the MC to think about that she tries to avoid thinking about it at all until the end of the story when she fully learns what/who the Sacrificer actually is, and what her true role is in the whole thing.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 12, 2017)

I'm only halfway through Part 2, and there's discussions about sacrifices every few pages. >.<


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 14, 2017)

Does anyone still want to discuss?


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## Heliotrope (Nov 14, 2017)

What did you want to discuss?


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 15, 2017)

Oh, just wondering if this thread was still active. I'm working on Part 3, wherein the MC learns about a [personal] sacrifice that happened: someone very dear to her saved her life at the expense of their own, setting into motion the events of the whole story.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 15, 2017)

I'm not sure there is much more to discuss? Without there being any context or specifics, or request for specific feedback, I don't think there is much more to add?


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 15, 2017)

I guess not. It was fun, anyway.


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## Dark Squiggle (Nov 21, 2017)

I read my way through this whole thread, and must say I enjoyed the read. It made me think of the importance of causes of sacrifice, both in emotion and in blood, in a new way.
Sacrifice is a big thing, one which I cannot fully understand. There are other things discussed in here that I probably cannot understand as a male, but I am willing to accept that and move on.
I am thinking of how people have made real sacrifices in both their blood and that of others, as a part of the real world, and what they thought at the time. Meditative bliss? Fear? Resigned? Determined? The soldiers at Stalingrad, and Bietar, and the Alamo and a thousand other doomed cities and fortresses, what did they feel? The only book I have read that really captured what I think that feeling is accurately was _Les Miserables._ What of the parents who gave their children to Ba'al, the fire god of the Phoenicians? I don't think I have read anything like this and I am interested in the stories written here.
Blood is definitely a  powerful theme in books. _Moby Dick_'s most powerful scene to me is when Ahab makes his harpooners cut themselves  with their harpoons and swear fealty to him after which they mixed and drank the blood, with Ahab drinking as well. _The Golden Compass_ flies out of control when Lord Asriel pulls "I am your father" and then smashes Roger's soul to build the interuniverse bridge in front of Lyra (The MC), after she spent the whole book trying to save him. That is an incredibly charged moment, and it doesn't compare to a thought out version of it where Lyra or Roger would know of what comes...


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Nov 22, 2017)

<Sacrifice is a big thing, one which I cannot fully understand.>

I wonder if anyone really can.

I'm toying with the ending of my book [16 more pages of it left to write in my notebook!] I'm really not quite sure how to end it, without sweeping aside the sacrifice of the MC's sisters or making their 'true' reason for it seem contrived [or at worst, a sudden twist that comes out of nowhere.]

I also don't know what happens to the MC, once she [spoiler alert] discovers that she, along with her two guardian spirits and her mother, are the four avatars of the Sacrificer itself.


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