# Magic Systems



## Dragonbane (Aug 10, 2016)

Any advice on developing a good magic system?


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## Saigonnus (Aug 10, 2016)

Create boundaries. What can it do. Think of at least a few "tricks" whether you have an elemental magic system, a runic based one or a raw "tap the weave" kind of system. How would a practicioner of magic live his/her daily life? Do they boil water magically? Or is it only more serious stuff like defense.

Magic should also have a price


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## skip.knox (Aug 10, 2016)

Create a magic system. Write a story using the magic system. Then let the readers decide whether or not it is good.


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## Dragonbane (Aug 10, 2016)

This is my magic system so far, let me know what you think


*Source of Magic-*	Typically when using magic(in my world), the caster uses his own personal reserve of energy(ie lifeforce). But it also exists everywhere and in everything, and because of this, if you lack a certain amount of magic then you can take it by 'feeding' upon the surrounding energy. Though it exists everywhere, it predominantly resides in The Fringe which is like a parallel dimension/world. Only a handful of people outside The Fringe can access and use the energy within the dimension.

*Who can do it?-*	Anyone with a connection(or affinity) to The Source(the enigmatic being who created everything) can use it. Some are born natural magic users, others discover it on their own. In my workld magic is purely innate. people who can't use magic must use Artifacts imbued with Fringe energy.
There's also another forbidden way to gain immense power over magic, and that is called making a Pact. You make this deal with a higher being whether it be a spirit, demon, God etc. And in exchange for power you must give up part of your soul, which is made up of five parts; the "heart", shadow, name/memory, personality, and finally lifeforce. Also when bargaining with your soul on the line it's best not to lose more then 1 piece of it.
*Limitations/Cost-*-Strength of Will and Body(magic is sentient it it will fight for control)
-Access to energy
-Knowledge of magic
	All magic in their own way is physically taxing, using it is like burning off calories really fast(that's why you don't normally see many fat magicians). If one gains their power through a deal with a higher being(like a demon) and doesn't "pay up" then the magic will corrupt them and strip them of their soul. Thus turning them into horrific creatures called The Forsaken. They are nightmares in corporeal form, cursed to roam the worlds spreading fear and destruction wherever they may tread.
*Rules*
1. Everything with a beginning must have an ending(so becoming immortal is pointless if you were born)
2. Something finite can not create something infinite
3. Anything that is created can be destroyed

*Divisions of Magic-*
Weaving-Everything has a distinct "song" to it, and beings who can "sing" (aka weaving), can manipulate this "music" and even alter reality
	Mental(Sub Division)-Psychic powers(ie. telekinesis, telepathy, astral projection etc.)
	Mythic/Dream(Sub Division)- Making the impossible possible and basically bringing ones dreams(or nightmares) to life.
Evocation-Manipulation of energy, creating things, and protection magic(like forcefields)
	Arcane(Sub Division)-Can learn secrets predict the future, scrying, telling truth 
from lie, and creating illusions
	Destruction/Shadow(Sub Division)-Can drain energy, negate powers, and raise the dead
	Light/Creation(Sub Division)- animate objects(inanimate), purify  and heal,and boost power
Binding/Fusion- Alter somethings(or someones) properties, combine objects 
and powers
	Beast(Sub Division)- absorb the essence of an animal(or multiples) and develop their abilities and become slightly animalistic in appearance.
	Spirit/Soul(Sub Division)- merge souls(creating soul bonds) and manipulate them, and summoning spirits
	Elemental(Sub Division)- Summon and manipulate the elements(elementalists have special tattoos for this), and can also enhance ones own physical capabilities by binding the elements to ones body)
				Examples
		-Earth: durability and superstrength   
		 -Fire: increased stamina and endurance
		 -Lightning: superspeed(binding lightning to your body is like an adrenaline            		shot or bingeing on energy drinks)   
		 -Water: increased flexibility and intangibility

*History of Magic* 
There's a legend that goes around amongst the heroes and magic-users that every few millennium a hero is born, one unlike any other. It is said that they have the power to balance out the Light and Dark(aka Order and Chaos), and are capable of killing any being(even immortals) who is throwing the universe out of balance. If necessary then they are able to destroy everything(ie "wipe the slate clean") and start anew. The last known being who was capable of this was Eteru, the Ancient of Hope, who existed nearly 7 centuries ago. The first being to ever have this power was Caelus, the Primordial of Energy(he's the 3rd oldest being in existence next to Vacivus(Primordial of the Void) and Genesis(Primordial of Creation)). A very defining moment in magic history was around 367 AC(after creation), which was the Warlock Wars(also known as the War of the Damned. It was when magic-users officially started making deals with demons. The war was between Satan's(1st of the Fallen) army(which consisted of Forsaken, Warlocks, and monsters from Gehenna) and Pelous's(god of light) army(which consisted of Angels, Nephilim, and the ancient race-the Primals).


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## Queshire (Aug 10, 2016)

whoops, playing around with the new thanking system...

Personally you see a lot of advice about limiting it, but that never struck me as a good place to start when making a magic system.


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## Alile (Aug 11, 2016)

> Some are born natural magic users, others discover it on their own. In my workld magic is purely innate.


These statements contradicts themselves. Innate means you are born with it, like you say *some *magic-users are, and you say magic is purely innate. How then do others discover it on their own?

I can't really come up with a system of my own that resembles yours, so I'll just ask a couple of questions, many of these things is stuff I am thinking about myself. I have a different system for magic that I'm still working out.
Just a question. Are magic used by all genders and races? (assuming you have races, you didn't say). Are people equally strong in all sub-divisions of magic? I would humbly suggest another word for your different types of magic than sub-division, because to me the word sounds like a very scientific term, although if magic is spoken of in this way in your world, I guess I could get used to it.
Your Arcane sub-division is what I would call Divination if I needed to label it, and people used to read the clouds, read tea-leaves, read palms, read signs into animal bones or dice as they are dropped on the ground, loads of things in addition to scrying in crystal balls, water, black mirrors or the like. Does that really require magic?
But to learn secrets from others? How would you do that? Is it morally right to try to do that? What about human rights and privacy? If you could do this to another person, wouldn't they start to hate you and fear you and avoid you? 
I would personally move Create Illusion to the sub-division Binding/Fusion. They seem to belong there to me.

How do people who use magic feel about it when they feed on the energy around them? Is it right to do so? Does not a forest need its own life force? Can you feed on other humans, and what happens to them, and is that okay to do to another human?
If needed, how much of your own life force can you use up in your magic? Can you fall into a coma, get physically ill or lose 50 pounds overnight because you overdid things (for example to save your own life)? Is not the sub-division Destruction/Shadow where you drain energy what you do when you feed?

I like your ideas on magic, but about magic rules, what happens if you try to break them, bend them or misuse them? Teenagers always have to test their limits and make their own experiences (say a parent told them "don't drink ok?" Would any teenager actually take that advice? And if they did, would that even be smart, because if they didn't they would not have their own experience about it, and would have no idea how much alcohol they could drink before they've had enough...). Using magic all the time, can it be dangerous? Are all those who use magic super athletes to use their physical body in magic work?


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## shangrila (Aug 12, 2016)

I prefer magic to be a tool so I look at how it could be used in more mundane settings. A little boring I know, but I think it adds depth.

For example, in my main magic system I have telepaths of a sort. They can read minds like you'd expect, so they make good interrogators. But they also have an ability to link their minds over great distances, which makes them great at relaying messages quickly. So now I've got a magic that serves as both an interrogation/espionage type thing as well as a nation/world-wide telegraph service. I don't know if it actually is but I thought that was cool. 

A lot of people seem to have a very rigid view of what their magic can and cannot do which I think flies in the face of human nature. We're a versatile and resourceful people. I mean, we built rockets to bomb each other but they got repurposed to send us to the moon. And Velcro was invented to keep things from floating away in space but now helps little kids who don't know how to tie their shoes yet (among other things). If we could create flames I know it'd be used for war, but there would also be a market for smelters, for example.

Just something to consider.


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## CupofJoe (Aug 12, 2016)

shangrila said:


> We're a versatile and resourceful people.


I think it is that very unexpected versatility of humans that makes magic so problematical.
For an example if  you can just hear peoples thoughts, why not hang around ATMs picking up  PINs [as people think about which numbers to type in] and then rip off  the unwary sap by stealing for cloning their card... 
Want the passwords for someone's bank or Netflix account? No problem!!!
Magic has to have limitations or your world has to have adapted to limit it.
In the above cases I would guess that PIN and password type security would never work and everything would be done on biometrics.
I like my magic limited and mundane. Spells, incantations or a glyph to make a flame, that sort of thing. If and when "big" magic arrives on the scene it is usually the first sign of something really bad that is about to happen.


shangrila said:


> Just something to consider.


Always!!!


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## Gurkhal (Aug 12, 2016)

I'd say that first you decide what you want your magic to do in your story and then you create a system to facilitate what you want magic to do, or not to do, in your story.

EDITED: Odds are otherwise that you'll spend lots of work on something which you either need to modify to get your story to work, ro that you spend lots of time and energy on something which don't become relevant in the story and thus you have wasted energy and stuff in vain.

Or even worse...

You write out a lot and then drive away the reader with endless info dumps and explainations of the magical system that don't come to have relevance in the story. Leading the reader to wonder why the hell they were told this, and had to read page after page of this, when it don't mean anything to the story.


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## Miskatonic (Aug 12, 2016)

I'm starting to think less is more where magic systems are concerned. Too much exposition on how everything works can slow things down to a crawl, regardless of how interesting it might be.

Leave the absurdly complicated magic systems to video games.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Aug 12, 2016)

I would encourage you to consider a threshold question. The question is whether you want the magic to fix the problem or if you want humans to fix the problem. If you want the former then the magic system needs to be more detailed and explained to the reader. If you want the latter then you need not explain the magic system in detail. This is Sandersons First Law of Magic. The two modern authors that exemplify these ends are Sanderson and Martin.


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## A.J. (Aug 14, 2016)

I tend to enjoy building a magic system that starts with basic gifts, each separated (or classified) by it's own set of rules. For instance: Earthy powers would deal with more of an elemental structure, thus physics come into play.
I then would develop a set of rules on how that particular power can me augmented (spells, runes, places).
Each division has it's own branching tree, and those who have the gift can only work within a system they are born to.


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## Snowpoint (Aug 17, 2016)

I tend to make this argument in my head a lot. Don't know If I have posted it here before. 
Wizards of Waverly Place has a good magic system. (WHAT???) If you look at it on paper, it makes no sense and it is not consistent. However, Wizards is a comedy show for children. The magic only exists to facilitate jokes. Assuming you laugh, the magic system served its purpose. Therefore, it is a good system.
Point being, understand what story you want, what YOU want from it. What elements of the supernatural do you need to make it happen?


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## Miskatonic (Aug 17, 2016)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> I would encourage you to consider a threshold question. The question is whether you want the magic to fix the problem or if you want humans to fix the problem. If you want the former then the magic system needs to be more detailed and explained to the reader. If you want the latter then you need not explain the magic system in detail. This is Sandersons First Law of Magic. The two modern authors that exemplify these ends are Sanderson and Martin.



The problem with Sanderson is that he comes up with unique magic systems yet describes how they work at some of the least opportune times, like in the middle of a fight scene. When he first introduced shard blades it was pretty clunky. Just exposition in the middle of what could have just remained a fight scene. The end results of using a shard blade on a person could have been described and then the logic behind it left for another time.


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## FifthView (Aug 17, 2016)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> I would encourage you to consider a threshold question. The question is whether you want the magic to fix the problem or if you want humans to fix the problem. If you want the former then the magic system needs to be more detailed and explained to the reader. If you want the latter then you need not explain the magic system in detail. This is Sandersons First Law of Magic. The two modern authors that exemplify these ends are Sanderson and Martin.



The Sanderson vs GRRM snapshot is good as a snapshot, but I don't know how good a guide it is for anyone wondering whether or how to create a magic system.

I suppose that, for me, the relative "more detailed" is the weaker point of the snapshot.  There are different kinds of detail, from the bare basics mechanics to the role of magic in the world, and different levels of detail for each kind of development.  

Although the mechanics of his magic are extremely vague, GRRM seems to put more attention on developing a cultural/religious role for magic, as well as historical role for magic, than Sanderson does in, say, his Mistborn books.  At least, there seems to be a stronger emphasis on those aspects.  We may not know how magic works, but we know it is a very real force that can have significant effects within that world as well as upon the plot.  (Jon Snow and others coming back to life?  The White Walkers being created?*  Stannis having his brother murdered via magic?)  Whether this can be called "detail" might be in question.  Whereas the Mistborn books focus a little more on the mechanics.

One of the points in the snapshot seems to be this:  If magic is meant to solve the problem or play a large role in solving the problem, then you don't want any sort of _deus ex machina_ resolution to the problem, so you'll want the magical system's features, limits, and so forth clear to the reader ahead of time.  The resolution to the problem will seem more organic, reasonable, justified and in hindsight, predictable.

The problem with Sanderson, from my own personal POV, is the way he has made the task difficult for those of us coming after him who particularly enjoy that sort of development.  I mean:  How the @#%!! can I possibly create a cool, unusual, detailed system as interesting as his!

But I also like knowing and feeling that magic is embedded in the culture, history, and worldviews of a land, however rare it is in that world.  I like that feeling that magic is old and relevant, a basic feature of the nature of that world, with tendrils of effects going in multiple directions over epochs.  The warp and woof of a land.  So I think that taking the time to fully consider magic's role in the world can be, and often is, more important than worrying overmuch about the basic mechanics.


*Edit:  Of course, I'm surely mixing up what was shown in GoT vs the books in ASOIAF, although the general point would be the same.


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## Dragonbane (Aug 19, 2016)

Alile said:


> These statements contradicts themselves. Innate means you are born with it, like you say *some *magic-users are, and you say magic is purely innate. How then do others discover it on their own?


I meant that some people are born knowing how to use their power while others have the power, they must learn how to use it.



> Just a question. Are magic used by all genders and races? (assuming you have races, you didn't say). Are people equally strong in all sub-divisions of magic? I would humbly suggest another word for your different types of magic than sub-division, because to me the word sounds like a very scientific term, although if magic is spoken of in this way in your world, I guess I could get used to it.


Yes I have races(over 60 of them!) Everyone has the potential to use any magic but certain races are better equipped to do one magic then another(for example I have a race called Saxum which look like boulders and are better suited for earth magic rather then water magic)


> I would personally move Create Illusion to the sub-division Binding/Fusion. They seem to belong there to me.


Why?


> How do people who use magic feel about it when they feed on the energy around them? Is it right to do so? Does not a forest need its own life force? Can you feed on other humans, and what happens to them, and is that okay to do to another human?
> If needed, how much of your own life force can you use up in your magic? Can you fall into a coma, get physically ill or lose 50 pounds overnight because you overdid things (for example to save your own life)?


Usually only desperate or evil people feed on surrounding energy. You can feed on other humans if your will is stronger then theirs(and its up to them if they can justify it). You can use up all of it but you probably won’t survive it.



> I like your ideas on magic, but about magic rules, what happens if you try to break them, bend them or misuse them? Teenagers always have to test their limits and make their own experiences (say a parent told them "don't drink ok?" Would any teenager actually take that advice? And if they did, would that even be smart, because if they didn't they would not have their own experience about it, and would have no idea how much alcohol they could drink before they've had enough...). Using magic all the time, can it be dangerous? Are all those who use magic super athletes to use their physical body in magic work?



Like I said in the magic system, magic is sentient and it will fight for control. And just like playing with fire or something dangerous, there are consequences if you mess up


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## Dragonbane (Aug 19, 2016)

A.J. said:


> Each division has it's own branching tree, and those who have the gift can only work within a system they are born to.


 
That's exactly how mine is, though the very elite can use different divisions also


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## Queshire (Aug 19, 2016)

Dragonbane said:


> Like I said in the magic system, magic is sentient and it will fight for control. And just like playing with fire or something dangerous, there are consequences if you mess up



I love the idea of magic being a living thing. It makes a great excuse to give yourself wiggle room if the needs of the story require you to bend the rules of magic a bit.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 19, 2016)

Queshire said:


> I love the idea of magic being a living thing. It makes a great excuse to give yourself wiggle room if the needs of the story require you to bend the rules of magic a bit.



Seconded. It's cool. 

My magic system is fluid and changes over time. It's subject to evolution. By that, i mean that way back at the beginning of history there was an ancestral magic which branched into various forms, which again branched and continued to evolve. Branches go extinct; new ones pop up, they diverge, they converge.


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## Logos&Eidos (Aug 30, 2016)

Build your magic around what you think is cool,what your trying to accomplish for the setting and what gives you the least conceptual headaches. 

My two main forms of magic are Elemental and Ki.
Because I grew up with Jrpgs most significantly Star Ocean The Second Story,Saga Frontier,Grandia and they all use elemental magic. I also read of a lot of manga and warriors that use  Ki or an analogous inner spiritual power that let's them transcend normal physical limitations is a very common trope.


Over the years I noticed a separation in the narratives of manga/anime and Jrpgs between superhuman warriors and magic-users, despite there supernatural capabilities super warriors are considered normal.

I decided to incorporate the super warrior magic-user separation into my setting. And for the power of the mages I went with elemental magic because it was the kind of magic that caused the least number of headaches compared to more abstract systems.


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