# Why do so many people use elves and dwarves?



## Aegrus

I don't mean to offend anyone, this being my first post and all.  (I'll save that for at least my fifth.)  But I'm curious about why, when given the ability to create all manner of new fantasy races, so many people re-imagine Tolkein's creations.  (Of course, Tolkein didn't invent elves and dwarves, but the versions of those in most modern fantasy seem to mirror Tolkein's versions of them far more closely than the mythical versions.)


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## Alex

Perhaps because it is easiest to imagine and write.  Also, it is mostly accepted by society very well. I love elves but I like throwing my own creatures into the frey as well.  I hope this helps!  Also, welcome to Mythic Scribes, I joined just today


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## Ghost

Nostalgia and familiarity? I think people have fond memories of when they first read those stories, so they try to be a part of it themselves. Since there's this elf template writers can rely on, it's easier for readers to imagine elf and dwarf characters. If I make up a new race, people might not understand it as easily, so perhaps laziness comes into play for some folks. It's easier to rely on what's been done.

I'll admit I've got some elves and dwarves in my main project, but I've relegated them to being fairies. They spread illnesses, steal babies, make people dance to death, make cursed items, and all that jazz. They have little impact on the world aside from being bogeymen, but they're a threat to vulnerable people like babies and travelers.


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## zizban

Making totally new races you have to describe in detail can be more work than it's worth. Sometimes just calling this race "elfs" and "dwarfs" gives an image in the reader's mind. You don't have to, of course.


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## Leuco

I like the idea of making new races, but it's difficult to make anything "new". For example, didn't those blue people in _Avatar_ seem to have a lot in common with the traditional image of wood elves? And sure, we think about bearded, industrious dwarven miners, but really, they're just little people. Are they really so different from Oompa Loompas? I guess, one could make them blue to make them different, but isn't that really just beating around the bush? I think in most Fantasy stories, you're going to have little people, you're going to have superhuman, angelic people, and of course, the dark minions. You can call them whatever you want, but at their base, they're really just dwarves, elves, and goblins. 

Anyway, I happen to like elves, and so I like writing about them. I think they're mysterious and interesting and I think they make for great fiction. My elves may be different from the traditional elves, but I know where the source of inspiration comes from and so I don't mind simply calling them elves.

Someone told me a long time ago that everything written in this world is always based on something else. I believe it, but I certainly applaud originality. I just think starting something new can be a lot more difficult than it seems.


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## Steerpike

I don't see that many new fantasy books that include them, to be honest. At least, not outside of gaming fiction where the races are established in the world. A lot of readers like to read about them.


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## Terra Arkay

I think it's laziness, yeah they may be overused but if you can add a few tweaks here and there, they might just work. I personally avoid using your generic fantasy races and I've decided to come up with my own


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## Reaver

Terra Arkay said:


> I think it's laziness, yeah they may be overused but if you can add a few tweaks here and there, they might just work. I personally avoid using your generic fantasy races and I've decided to come up with my own



I have to respectfully disagree the thought that using "established" races is laziness. In my world their are six different types of Elfin races; their societies and cultures are based on the geographic influences of their domain and each uniquely distinct: Forest, Jungle, Mountain, Desert, Water (rivers and oceans), and Subterranean. I do, however, agree that some writers can fall into the ordinary and cliche' but oftentimes, familiarity can be comforting.


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## Jabrosky

zizban said:


> Making totally new races you have to describe in detail can be more work than it's worth. Sometimes just calling this race "elfs" and "dwarfs" gives an image in the reader's mind. You don't have to, of course.


This.

However, I could never write about a fantasy race and completely play their traditional tropes straight; I always have to subvert them in some way. In my last story that featured elves, orcs, and humans, the elves were the bad guys, the orcs were more sympathetic, and the humans were black people rather than the usual pseudo-medieval Europeans.


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## zizban

There is nothing wrong with turning tropes on their heads. Actually, I usually don't describe skin color unless someone is of a color my character isn't used to seeing.


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## Amanita

I've been asking myself this question as well. 
As a reader, I don't really care for elves and even less for dwarves and orcs or any other "standard evil races". Elves can be fascinting, if the author is using some mythological background where they're alien and mysterious, but that's rather rare. Dwarves in my opinion are extremely difficult to make interesting and with orcs etc. it's (almost?) impossible. For me, they're all too close to humans to be interesting in themselves. Therefore I much prefer fantastical being which are much less human, even the most "cliche" ones like dragons or unicorns. 

But why do other people like to write and read about them? I can only guess. It might be because many grew up with Tolkien and today maybe games with this races as well and just like fantasy that way or even believe that it has to be that way. I don't want claim that anyone is lacking creativity but in some cases, this might be an issue as well. Hope for good sales could be another one.
There's something else I've been speculating about and I really hope that I'm not offending anyone.
Fantasy is derived from archetypes and subjects that have been bothering people for a long time. The belief that there is a wise, noble and moral superior race (to which the person in question usually belongs) which has to defend itself against attacking "barbarians" who are evil and not really human has been really common throughout history. Today, this isn't commonly practised in western countries anymore, but some comments about Muslims circulating at the moment imply that this way of thinking isn't completely gone.
During the times these fantasy stories are leading us back to, this was the way many people have been thinking.  Authors usually wouldn't get away with using humans in such a way anymore, however. And in come the elves and orcs etc. Given the fact that those technically aren't humans but other species? and in the case of the orcs, zombies etc. often actually created by Evil, most people aren't bothered by this. 
And the readers can escape reality into a world which not only lacks modern technology but which also has wars that are still glorious and don't demand any second thoughts on killing innocent civilians, soldiers forced to fight or in short, humans.

Recently, I've read an article about fantasy being reactionary. The article itself wasn't much good in my opinion but I believe that there is something reactionary about certain forms of fantasy. Maybe another interesting subject to discuss here.


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## Joanna

In some way you could ask why do you even have humans in fantasy novels when you could make up so many new races. 

Someone mentioned laziness, but I think it's maybe more down to what is your priority in the story and if you like creating new races and creatures or you would rather concentrate on the plot. Also you can always add some personal touches to the races, making them unique while at the same time they stay familiar to many readers. It's a bit like if you have a bed in your story, every one know what a bed is for and how it usually looks, so you can focus on what makes it different from a generic bed, and only describe that small bit, rather than make up a new piece of furniture.


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## ShortHair

Of course, elves and the rest go back much further than Tolkein. They draw on archetypes in our subconscious, which is why they still resonate with us. The genius of LotR (and I may be wrong on this) was that it brought elves out of their traditional fae circles and put them in a world where they could interact with, and often dominate, humans. Not only on an individual basis but as entire races as well.

When you create a new race, you give up that folklore connection, unless you're lucky or you can tap into the collective unconscious. If I put a troll in a story, I can draw on centuries of stories about trolls and on the responses a normal reader has to trolls. I don't see that as laziness. Single words have centuries-old associations, and we draw on those too.


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## Reaver

ShortHair said:


> When you create a new race, you give up that folklore connection, unless you're lucky or you can tap into the collective unconscious. If I put a troll in a story, I can draw on centuries of stories about trolls and on the responses a normal reader has to trolls. I don't see that as laziness. Single words have centuries-old associations, and we draw on those too.



Well said.  There really isn't anything I could add to this without ruining this thought.


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## phoenixwings

I agree with elves and dwarves being popular as they are fascinating creatures. I have to admit though i'm not a big fan of most elves and dwarves based books. I'm not sure why this is but as soon as they're mentioned my attention becomes less. I guess it's just my taste but i can definately see why people like writing about them. 

It's not so much making new races, it's about going with what you know and turning it into something completely different. For example, mermaids, in mythology used to sing in the middle of the ocean to capture sailors and kill them. Instead of them being killers they could be defensive shy or even just mute. .

It's not completely straightforward but nothing ever is. Especially not in fantasy .


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## Wormtongue

To elf, or not to elf...  That is the question.

Both sides have valid points.  

I have vacillated on this question.  The current version of my WIP does include elves, even though they are non-tolkien elves.  But really, they aren't essential to the plot.  I've already dialed back their involvement.  I could eliminate them completely.  Reduce my "cliche ratio"...


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## Legendary Sidekick

I got together with a group of friends (and acquaintances) who wanted to start up an RPG. Everyone decided to go out of their way to not have elves, dwarves, etc. What people came up with... "mystics" who were like elves, but sparkly. A race of metal skinned people who were experts of mining and smithing. You see where I'm going with this?

There was an race that didn't fit into LotR archetypes (which we named after the friend who designed them after he died at the age of 23) but the race could really have passed for humans using sword magic. But I don't think any of us came up with races that were completely original. It was more like, "Wow... I get to be a rock-man? What are they like?"

"Orcs."


And now, to beat the dead horse:
 *BEAT* _Instead of spending a lot of time explaining how your magic archers aren't elves and your miner-smiths aren't dwarves and your monstrous warriors aren't orcs and the common folk that the reader's supposed to identify with aren't human, you can write elves, dwarves, orcs and humans. _*BEAT*

"I'm not... _quite_ dead."

*BEAT*


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## Wormtongue

To Legendary Sidekick

Your point is well taken.  I came to the same conclusion myself.  Unfortunately my dwarves are 7 feet tall so I just couldn't see calling them "dwarves".  doh!


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## Xanados

I think the use of Elves and Dwarves are fine, as long as they aren't throwaway in the story. They need depth, and lots of it, if they want to satisfy me as not just another rip off of Tolkien. That's why I'm fond of the Night Elves and the Blood Elves in Warcraft, because they are a different take on the Elves. 

In my world, however, there will be no such thing. I wish to create more exotic, archaic creatures. Serpent-headed men that are deeply inspired by Egyptian mythology, that use spears and speak wicked incantations.


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## Steerpike

There is nothing inherently wrong with having elves or dwarves or any other fantasy race. It is all in the story and the execution of the story. Thinking one cannot use elves because they are used so much is like thinking one cannot write a story about humans because so many stories have human characters.


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## Reaver

Steerpike said:


> There is nothing inherently wrong with having elves or dwarves or any other fantasy race. It is all in the story and the execution of the story. Thinking one cannot use elves because they are used so much is like thinking one cannot write a story about humans because so many stories have human characters.




Thanks, Steerpike! You've given me some much needed inspiration!


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## Amanita

You don't have to use elves, dwarves etc. to be allowed to call your story fantasy either, however. All writers and readers are human, therefore it's obvious that the being we write about are human as well most of the time. With the other "races" this isn't true, obviously. (Or maybe it is, but we're just calling them something else.) 
It is true that beings like elves or dwarves exist in mythology, but I haven't read mythological stories of fairytales that have what amounts to "group of immortal humans with pointed ears" and "group of mountain-dwelling small humans." I'm not claiming that these stories don't exist, but these things definitely aren't absolutely necessary. Some mythologies, such as the Greek ones don't use them at all. 
Most of these stories I'm familar with feature one or a very small number of these beings who are serving a specific role within the story, roles such as guarding a treasure, seducing a man, setting tasks to the hero and so on. Despite of (maybe) looking human they're clearly very different. Tolkien elves and the ones in other works using elves I'm familiar with are not.


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## Ziggy

zizban said:


> Making totally new races you have to describe in detail can be more work than it's worth. Sometimes just calling this race "elfs" and "dwarfs" gives an image in the reader's mind. You don't have to, of course.



I agree with this.

It really depends on what your aim is as a writer. Most will take some traditional fantasy elements and add or change a few things to make their world unique. Some will spend more time on describing their world and its creatures, some will spend more time on character development and plot. Usually we do a bit of both.


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## Voldermort

It's probably got something to do with archetypes. Short good =  dwarf. Short bad = orc. Dunno.


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## sashamerideth

Voldermort said:
			
		

> It's probably got something to do with archetypes. Short good =  dwarf. Short bad = orc. Dunno.



That's the kind of stereotypical thinking we try to avoid, and I have never pictured orcs as short, or dwarves as particularly good.


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## Ghost

Amanita, I think that's an interesting point about an inherently superior race and a barely human barbarian race. Morality in is straightforward in a book with those populations, and the author can focus on the epic journey or whatever the plot is.

I wanted to add to the bit about elves, dwarves, and laziness. As fantasy writers right now, we have to work around the elf and dwarf stereotype when we include them. I don't see it the same way as drawing from folkloric traditions since many of the associations came up directly from Tolkien and D&D. Besides, the folk version of a race or animal depends on your source. It isn't a one-size-fits-all sort of situation. Having elves isn't so bad, but the more they inexplicably follow the fantasy tropes, the less I can think of them as the author's take on a tradition. At that point, they become a generic shortcut.

Even if you make up detailed elven societies, most people will think of them as stereotypical fantasy elves until you say otherwise, and then it becomes a matter of "my elves are different because x and y." They're different from what? And we're right back to the stereotypical mopey, judgy elves who discuss philosophy in the forest as leaves fall onto their golden hair, all while dwarves puke in the background after going on a collective bender. You have more wiggle room if they aren't called "elves" or "dwarves," but they need more than a name change to be different.

I wanted to clarify something from my previous post. I realized might come across as smug. "Well, _I_ use mythical elves instead of Tolkien/D&D elves, so neener neener." That isn't how I meant for it to sound, lol. Even if you use folklore for guidance like I do, it's not as creative or risky as attempting something new. We're still relying on cultural associations.



ShortHair said:


> If I put a troll in a story, I can draw on centuries of stories about trolls and on the responses a normal reader has to trolls. I don't see that as laziness. Single words have centuries-old associations, and we draw on those too.



The thing is, the elf and dwarf tropes were popularized recently. (Although, someone may be able to cite old sources for elves and dwarves hating each other. And elves with their own special language. And dwarves with axes and ale. Etc.) The recency isn't even the problem for me. The problem is they're so darn pervasive, and elves/dwarves fulfill similar functions from story to story. In a genre called "fantasy" I'd expect more variation.


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## Kaellpae

I'm not a big fan of elves, dwarves, or gnomes. If other people like to do their characters and races as such I'm not against reading about them. It's just not my interest to write about them. They've staled to me.


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## Voldermort

sashamerideth said:


> That's the kind of stereotypical thinking we try to avoid, and I have never pictured orcs as short, or dwarves as particularly good.



To associate archetypes with stereotypical thinking demonstrates that you're not as independendent minded as you like to think you are.

First, archetypes are fundamental.

Second, the answer probably does have something to do with archetypes. Just like the White Stag is used as a Supernatural Aid in a very particular way, I wouldn't be surprised if Orcs and Dwarves were used in similar fashion. The first place I would look for this sort of thing is James George Frazer's and Robert Graves' work.

Independent thinking sometimes means knowing that the answer lies within convention. It doesn't mean blindly going the opposite way of convention.


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