# Mages as Demigods,  how might society interact with them and they with society.



## Logos&Eidos (Sep 25, 2015)

In a lot of settings Mages have so much power at their disposal that they might as well be Demigods. Yet they are rarely, at least I heaven't seen them often treated as such. Exalted and to a lesser degree Mistborn, are the only examples that I've seen of that. I bring this up because, when I think abut the origins and nature of mages and their craft in my world it becomes more appropriate to treat them as a type of Demigod.

Adeptery,what the magecraft in my setting is currently called shares its origins with mortal souls, the Old Gods. The Seven Titans forged reality from the substance of the abyss and their own essence. By the will of the Titans, twelve consciousness emerged from the Grand Stream the spiritual current of creation. These Beings journeyed to the Supernal Plane the highest level reality and they claimed dominion over all that they surveyed; History would come to known the first born of creation as the Old Gods. After a few eons the Old Gods crew curious and covetous of the mundane world yet they because of sheer mass of their power could not enter it. So they broke of pieces of themselves and flung them across the Veil, these shards of the Old Gods became the first mortal souls.

Adeptery involves a mortal igniting their Divine potential there by gaining the ability to sense and utilize spiritual energy,called simply "essence". They also gain passive and active internal abilities, enhanced physicality including healing,enhanced senses,greatly enhanced longevity and the ability to burn essence for brief surges in physical/sensory and regenerative ability.  The external availabilities of Adeptery involve manipulating essence to generate and or control natrual forces. Individual Adepts have their own innate calibrations for using manipulating essence in certain way, these calibrations are refereed to as Talents/Focus. The common number of Talents is between one and three, with numbers beyond four being successively rare.


Adepts also possess the powerful and dangerous ability to transform themselves into an embodiment of their dominant Talent and by doing so becoming a pseudo spiritual/conceptual entity. This ability is difficult to learn and extremely dangerous for if an Adept ever lost control they would be consumed their Talent and permanently become a pseudo spiritual/conceptual entity losing their higher reasoning in the process.

Adepts exist in three square levels of power, three circles with three orders with in each circle, for a total of nine levels of power. Once an Adept attains the second order of the third circle, they have attained effective Godhood. Adepts will at this point begins to influence the Grandstream and through it fate,events and conditions with in an Adepts domain begin to reflect their natures as people and subconsciouses desires. It is at this point where Adepts begin to inadvertently draw followers and even form a priesthood, some people will be able to attune to the signal that the Adept is constantly broadcasting into the Grandstream and be able to channel that signals power;however that person will find themselves subject to the will of the Adept. While an Adept can simply train to reach a higher Order of power, moving to a higher Circle is extremely difficult. It involves undergoing another spiritual ignition, a far more dangerous and traumatic experience than the first. Most of adepts the that attempt the to reach the second  circle simply disintegrated from the feedback, of the survivors the majority have their ability to wield essence permanently or temporarily stricken from them, others suffer injuries best compared to electrocution, an extremely small minority simply fail to attain the power but suffer nothing.

While there are only three widely talked about Circles of Adepterous power their are in truth five. At the fourth Circle Adeptery power now operate on a planetary scale, at the Fifth Circle Adept's can't actually use Fifth Adeptery because the bulk of their strength must be devoted to keeping reality from ejecting them into the Void between the planes.

I have a very basic idea Adepts get relate to society, represented by three class of Adept.


Archons. The Adepts who embrace their divine right to rule and took over their host societies. The result is a blend of theo and magocracy, though probably not strictly hereditary. There is no guaranty that the child of an Adept is going to naturally mannifest as an Adept;though the odds are decent, and better still if both parents are adepts. Adepts can manifest anywhere and killing or exiling all those not of "the blood" is not only wasteful it makes future enemies. So any manifested Adept that is not part of a House/Cabal is going to find themselves adopted into the ruling class.

Sage/Artisan. These Adepts while recognizing that their power set them apart from and in many ways above the mundane mass,they also recognized that phenomenal cosmic power doesn't automatically one a good administrator. Thus they didn't use their powers to dominate their host societies. They offered their abilities to their communities,for fair compensation. Not necessarily in an explicit fee, it simply becomes the tradition to tithe the local Adept House/Cabal in many a nation. The Adepts in return for the generous donation use their abilities to benefit of the nation and it's citizens.

Anchorites. These Adepts just want to be left alone and make no attempt to rule or help anybody;They often live in seclusion


While this does explain the basics of how Adepts relate to their societies. The general attitude of the common people towards Adepts and how the interact with them is something I'm still missing. As well how Adepts view themselves they are objectively more than a mundane, and their power is a echo of the cosmoses creators. But do they actually see themselves as holy and or naturally entitled, is merely being adept enough.  


Another reason that this subject of how society deals with Mages/Demigods is important,is because a science vs magic war is a big part of my central conflict. 

The know realms/worlds are being colonized by people from an alternate time-line where do to the backlash from deaths of the feuding gods, magic as a natural ability was stricken from the people. Their civilization developed solely dependent on technology including magitech. Part of the colonizers justification is that they are emancipating the natives from subservience to tyrannical living gods;one cannot be both a a god and a man, and gods have no place in the mortal world.  To come up with good arguments/propaganda for both side I'll need to puzzle out how society deals with having Demigods(magic-users) living with them.


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## Ban (Sep 26, 2015)

You seem to be asking to questions here. 1 If your system is good and makes sense and 2 What kind of systems others use.

 To the first i can simply answer yes. From what i gather you are basically saying that there is a universal energy so to speak and that certain individuals can tap into that. How good they are at it (or adept ) depends on their ability to learn. You then split the mages up in three groups Archon/artisan/anchorites (i really like these names by the way so make sure to keep them in) which are basically how people with different personalities react to their power. All in all the system is good. It is understandable and clear but also complicated enough to be interesting.

Onwards to the second question!The first thing i thought of was the elder scrolls universe which exists in an entity called the godhead. The godhead is a being that can not control or influence the universe but through his "dreaming" the universe is allowed to exist. Mortals can attain godhood in this universe when they start to fully realize and understand that they exist within the godhead and their world isn't real in the way they believe it to be yet they still manage to keep an identity and not think of themselves as non-existing (this is called CHIM). If they believe themselves to not exist than they will zero-sum which means they think themselves out of existance. A person who has achieved CHIM can manipulate the universe anyway they want but they can't do it too much because then they'll awake the godhead which would erase all of existance. The next step after CHIM is amaranth which is when a person who has achieved CHIM decides to mantle the godhead which meanse the awaken the godhead and take on its role thus starting the universe all over again with them now being the sleeping entity called the godhead.

In my universe it's much easier. Godhood is achieved when someone manages to bind themselves to the energy of the universe and become an integral part of it which makes them (spirit no body) functionally immortal but does not grant them any extraordinary power necessarily.


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## Logos&Eidos (Sep 26, 2015)

Banten said:


> You seem to be asking to questions here. 1 If your system is good and makes sense and 2 What kind of systems others use.
> 
> To the first i can simply answer yes. From what i gather you are basically saying that there is a universal energy so to speak and that certain individuals can tap into that. How good they are at it (or adept ) depends on their ability to learn. You then split the mages up in three groups Archon/artisan/anchorites (i really like these names by the way so make sure to keep them in) which are basically how people with different personalities react to their power. All in all the system is good. It is understandable and clear but also complicated enough to be interesting.
> 
> ...




My third question is how does the common person react to and view Adepts? The reaction to how societies deal with people who possess power beyond the common man has been covered in many pieces of fiction. From theological stand point how does society treat Adepts. Adepts are still mortal and only the most powerful of possess a numina and influence the world just by being there and even those god tier Adepts can still be killed it's just extremely difficult. Adepts wield the power of creation and are walking a path that if successfully completed end at an ascension to godhood;this isn't propaganda to justify Adept supremacy it's all objectively true. 


The only thing that comes to my mind is that Adepts are viewed with a mixture of fear and wonder, and are treated with deference a bit like how celebrities and politician are, only with an added religious component.


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## Ban (Sep 26, 2015)

Logos&Eidos said:


> My third question is how does the common person react to and view Adepts? The reaction to how societies deal with people who possess power beyond the common man has been covered in many pieces of fiction. From theological stand point how does society treat Adepts. Adepts are still mortal and only the most powerful of possess a numina and influence the world just by being there and even those god tier Adepts can still be killed it's just extremely difficult. Adepts wield the power of creation and are walking a path that if successfully completed end at an ascension to godhood;this isn't propaganda to justify Adept supremacy it's all objectively true.
> 
> 
> The only thing that comes to my mind is that Adepts are viewed with a mixture of fear and wonder, and are treated with deference a bit like how celebrities and politician are, only with an added religious component.




In my world the gods are worshipped and cults form around almost each one of them. Even the almost powerless gods usually garner a following. The living/breathing gods in your world seem to be much more powerful than those in mine so i would assume that the way they are treated would be even more extreme. I can see two things happening in your world. 
1 People will be militant to these beings. Their innate fear and awe will turn to hatred and the humans will do anything to stop these adepts. Whenever someone is discovered to have supernatural powers they will be round up and executed. Myths and legends would be about the evil of adepts and religion will most likely shift to a monotheistic belief in an all-father figure in which these living gods are considered demons.
2 People will worship the adepts and see even the weaker of them as divine. Adepts are spoilt by society and there every whims met. The adepts will form a class within this society that is even more powerful than the aristorcracy/ bourgeoisie and clergy. The rulers of this culture will bow to the adepts out of fear and awe and even if these adepts aren't technically in charge they will be the "de facto" leaders.

I see no way in which the cultures of this world can be less polarized unless the maximum potential power of these beings is lowered.


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## Logos&Eidos (Sep 27, 2015)

Banten said:


> In my world the gods are worshipped and cults form around almost each one of them. Even the almost powerless gods usually garner a following. The living/breathing gods in your world seem to be much more powerful than those in mine so i would assume that the way they are treated would be even more extreme. I can see two things happening in your world.
> 1 People will be militant to these beings. Their innate fear and awe will turn to hatred and the humans will do anything to stop these adepts. Whenever someone is discovered to have supernatural powers they will be round up and executed. Myths and legends would be about the evil of adepts and religion will most likely shift to a monotheistic belief in an all-father figure in which these living gods are considered demons.
> 2 People will worship the adepts and see even the weaker of them as divine. Adepts are spoilt by society and there every whims met. The adepts will form a class within this society that is even more powerful than the aristorcracy/ bourgeoisie and clergy. The rulers of this culture will bow to the adepts out of fear and awe and even if these adepts aren't technically in charge they will be the "de facto" leaders.
> 
> I see no way in which the cultures of this world can be less polarized unless the maximum potential power of these beings is lowered.




How strong are your gods, where do they fall on the scale? I said that third circle second order Adepts are at god-tier in the since that their wills and subconscious desires  bleed into reality; Adepts at this level invoke an empathic response  out of wherever they happen to live. where these god-tier Adepts fall on the weight scale is between 3.1 and 3.9.


In regards to no.1 I don't see any society that tried to kill off Adepts surviving contact with a society that kept them. Any sort of protective all-father  or mother, would likely have been an Adept themselves. Also Adept for all their power are still flesh and blood, they can be killed even by mundanes;even the Gods resting on their supernal thrones can still be killed. Magic items can be forged without one actually being able to use magic, it just requires knowledge and the right materials;which is another balancing factor.

I don't have a good reason for it but I do know that nature spirits do not like Adepts at all,Adepts can not serve as spirit-mediums nor can they be given "boons" by spirits. So my world is shaping up to be Techno-Shamanism vs Adeptery. 
Anyway this is world where godhood is a state of being and such a world is going to have a very different theological outlook than what we are accustom to.


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## Ban (Sep 27, 2015)

Humans or other creatures who have somehow achieved godhood (which really just means having an immortal spirit and being able to recreate their physical bodies over time thus being effectively immortal) can range anywhere between -1 and 4 but tend to settle around 1. There are multiple ways to godhood but many who achieve it manage to do so just by virtue of being blessed by a god which in itself does not grant them any other powers besides the immortality. Outside of these normal human gods there are cosmic gods whocan be at level 5 but they are blocked from severely damaging or influencing the mortal world.

You are right onthe fact that societies who'd kill their adepts would suffer immensely but that is not to say it couldn't have happened in your world's history. I find it a pretty interesting concept to have a civilization that doomed itself in this way. Also what i mean by all-father would be similar to an abrahamic god. A god that isn't directly provable or tangible but exists in the minds of his believers as being something above the gods, something above the universe even, something that truly can't be harmed.

This spirit-adept rivalry or animosity could be combined to a civilization that believes in an aforementioned all-father and shuns adepts. They could see the spirits as helpers of their "true"god and this could balance these civilizations out.

I would also think that these adepts, especially the older more powerful ones, would create a hierarchy that would essentially function as a pantheon for their worshippers. Seeing as they are still largely human with human minds i am sure that many would turn a little crazy with their power and it only takes one powerful, crazy god to demand for a hierarchy to be created. Other powerful gods don't want to serve him and so other pantheons would be created to rival him thus resulting in various competing pantheons.


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## Logos&Eidos (Sep 28, 2015)

Banten said:


> Humans or other creatures who have somehow achieved godhood (which really just means having an immortal spirit and being able to recreate their physical bodies over time thus being effectively immortal) can range anywhere between -1 and 4 but tend to settle around 1. There are multiple ways to godhood but many who achieve it manage to do so just by virtue of being blessed by a god which in itself does not grant them any other powers besides the immortality. Outside of these normal human gods there are cosmic gods who can be at level 5 but they are blocked from severely damaging or influencing the mortal world.
> 
> You are right onthe fact that societies who'd kill their adepts would suffer immensely but that is not to say it couldn't have happened in your world's history. I find it a pretty interesting concept to have a civilization that doomed itself in this way. Also what i mean by all-father would be similar to an abrahamic god. A god that isn't directly provable or tangible but exists in the minds of his believers as being something above the gods, something above the universe even, something that truly can't be harmed.
> 
> ...





So  your gods do fall in roughly the same weight class as mine.

I've got a very specific hierarchy of divinity.

Archgods. The intertwined beings called Order and Chaos are the highest beings in existence. They are more intelligent forces than personages. Think Lovecraft's Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth rather than the Abrahamic image of an old bearded man.

Titans. The seven children of Oder and Chaos, they are the actual creators of the cosmos,and they did so following the guidance of  Pattern, also called the Maker,Architect, Creator/Creatrix the greatest of the Titans. The other six are Radiance,Dynamos,Void,Spirit,Materia,Logos.

Supernal Gods. Are beings who exist in the highest plane of existence,the supernal realm axis-mundi of creation. from this loftiest of places the will of the gods is made manifest in the lower planes. The first  of these gods were created by the Titans and given dominion over creation  

Terrestrial Gods. Are those rare Adepts that have grown strong enough that they generate a numina and shape
reality just by being their.


Spirits are living manifestations of the Titants power dwelling on the Astral Plane or conceptual plane, they are incapable 
of existing On the material plane without a medium or a vessel of some kind.  Unlike Adepts, Spirits can endow things with their powers, bestowing boons upon people or creating magic items;this IS done by the Spirit breaking off a piece of itself,a Spirit that gives to much to fast will die.

I can see nations ruled by lines of Shaman Kings and Queens in opposition to Adepts. I see them denouncing Adepts as  "anathema" who steal power not meant for mortals(which adepts still are) and warp the flow of the world; which is all technically true. Adepts are in effect psionic beings they generate a "resonance" between themselves and nature that's the source of their power. From the point of view of Spirits this resonance is a pirate-broadcast, a hack, an act of theft,trespassing and insult all at once; Adepts ability to transform themselves into pseudo-spirits must seem like blasphemy.

After some thought, their must be a devision between people that can use essence and Adepts, it is their resonance that truly sets Adepts a part; their transformations could be hyper-resonance.   


I think that Spirits are seen as natural manifestations of the cosmoses  creators,and Shaman as the bridge between man and nature are far more beloved than Adepts; it makes since that the people would inherit the Spirits disdain for Adepts.  I mentioned in the first post that a science vs magic war,was the center conflict of my world. I had originally  planed for the Adeptery to be extinct among the Invaders as the result of a cosmic accident...now I'm in doubt  as to how accidental it was.


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## Miskatonic (Sep 28, 2015)

Plenty of demi-gods walking around in Greek mythology. Use that as a reference.


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## Logos&Eidos (Sep 28, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> Plenty of demi-gods walking around in Greek mythology. Use that as a reference.



The Hindu Demigods are closer to Adepts.


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## Ban (Sep 28, 2015)

Logos&Eidos said:


> So  your gods do fall in roughly the same weight class as mine.
> 
> I've got a very specific hierarchy of divinity.
> 
> ...



I do think it is a good idea to focus more on the all-father/spirit/shaman vs adept/living gods split so i'm glad i could help you out with that. I think that you now mostly know how you wish to handle these beings in your world but i'll jus state some questions here that might be useful to you.

1 Are there any beings besides spirits that can rival the adepts? I have multiple rivals to my mages and my gods for example there are mythical heroes, shapeshifters, vampires, all sort of monstrous beasts roaming the wilds and the incredibly rare anti-mages who can't use magic themselves but are capable of preventing magic from happening in their vicinity if they wish to. These creatures are all capable of standing up to the gods and mages of my world so do you have any?

2 Have any significant wars or other atrocities happened in your world or been caused by adepts to make non-adepts grow weary of them?

3 Are there major conflicts between the adepts in your world that would cause them to develop opposing groups or as i called them before pantheons?

4 How far advanced is your world? You might have stated that before but i don't think so. The level of advancement could severely impact the way people view these creatures and what their role in society would be. In an era similar to european enlightenment scholars might start (i would put the emphasis on START) to look at these adepts in a more scientific way instead of fear and awe.

5 This is a continuation of my previous question but How much do people know about adepts? Does the average scholar know about the titans and the archgods? Are they simply speculation? Or have they been informed by the spirits that these high gods exist?


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## Logos&Eidos (Sep 29, 2015)

Banten said:


> I do think it is a good idea to focus more on the all-father/spirit/shaman vs adept/living gods split so i'm glad i could help you out with that. I think that you now mostly know how you wish to handle these beings in your world but i'll jus state some questions here that might be useful to you.
> 
> 1 Are there any beings besides spirits that can rival the adepts? I have multiple rivals to my mages and my gods for example there are mythical heroes, shapeshifters, vampires, all sort of monstrous beasts roaming the wilds and the incredibly rare anti-mages who can't use magic themselves but are capable of preventing magic from happening in their vicinity if they wish to. These creatures are all capable of standing up to the gods and mages of my world so do you have any?
> 
> ...




1. I had been developing a kind of life-force eating vampire, I had forgotten about the idea to be honest.
One of my inspirations for them was the type V-Mutants, they were supposed to be half-breeds, part lovecraftian apex predator part mortal race;best not to think about how the hybridization took place. These vampires wouldn't be inherently evil just predatory and bad temped,their dietary requirements would make them a danger to any race including one another.

Animals that range from megafauna all the way up to kaiju are part of the world. There is anti magic in my setting, but it's still magic. An anti-mage in my world would be a mage whose only capable of casting dispel. There are some very specific rules to anti magic, magic is a cause but not necessarily the effect and anti magic counteracts the causes, there is also a separation between natural and conjured elements. 

For example dispel could shut down telekinesis however if that spell held together and a rock was launched, anti-magic wouldn't protect from the rock. Anti-magic could protect against a mage conjuring a blast of flame from essence, however if that same mage instead pulled the heat of a lake and funneled it to the target,then anti-magic would protect them naught. A very determined and well prepared mundane could kill a mage, just not in a fair fight.



2. I haven't thought of adept specific wars, but the breaking of the cosmos which separated the physical and spiritual creating the Mundane and Astral Planes was technically caused by the First Twelve Mortal souls, who were all proto-Adepts. The first twelve dethroned and imprisoned the Supernal-Gods and claimed the Supernal realm for themselves.  

How you would view the first war is entirely dependent on ones perspective. If you believe in the Supernal-Gods then that war is the equivalent of the Christian War in heaven only Lucifer won, if you believe in the Terrestrial Gods then the Twelve's victory is seen as the Olympians overthrowing the Titans.  The modern world consist of a series of interconnected pocket dimensions,this state of affairs was believed to have been caused by a war between the Gods, who at the time were all Ascend Adepts.

One of the worst acts of violation and perversion is mostly associated with Adepts, though the right combination of Spirits and Shaman could also do it; The creation of Flesh-Dolls. People who haven physically and mentally modified to suite them whims of their owner,destroying whoever the person was originally in the process. Some particularly depraved individuals like Flesh-Dolls that have just enough of their original minds intact so that they on occasion experience moments of lucidity and realize that something horrible has been done to them.    


3. I haven't really put that much thought into divine politics,beyond the facts that the current top deity is Goddess of rebirth among other things. Three broad categories of Adept,Archon,Artisan and Anchorite rarely get along there raison d'etre are to different.


4. The world is fairly dieselpunk in terms of flavor, but the look is supposed to be a 80sish retro-futuristic world. One with
monsters and magic running around. 


5. One of premises of my world is that the supernatural is an unquestionable fact. The people of the world are aware of it's history and metaphysics, though only scholars and theologians really know the details. The common person is rather blase about the things in their world that we would consider extraordinary. How Adepts and their abilities work is a known fact even if they would have all worked together to try and maintain a state of secrecy. Intelligent hostile spirits would have divulged their secrets.


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