# Need Help with Fabric and Fashion



## Ankari (May 8, 2012)

Greetings, 

I am currently writing a scene which involves a powerful lord who dwells in a hot southern climate.  I want someone or everyone to either point me to a resource I could read or answer a few (really a lot) of questions.  

I don't know if this helps, but this lord owns a cotton plantation.  Would a noble wear cotton?


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## Caged Maiden (May 8, 2012)

I know a ton about historical clothing, so ask away.  Who knows, this thread may help other people. 

Typically, cotton in the say, 16th century (my specialty) was a low-cost fabric, and no, a noble would not have worn it (as what we think of s cotton).  However, it might have been blended with something else, say linen to make a cheaper fabric available to lower classes.

If he lived in a hotter climate, he probably wore silk in the hot months maybe lined with linen.  In the winter months, linen, velvet (made from cotton), or wool would have been more appropriate.

Ask whatever you want, I can probably help.  If you want to search, Italian clothing would probably represent what your lord might wear, Italians wore lighter fabrics than the English or French, and if you hate those styles, Turkey had some pretty awesome fashions too.  Depends what look you are going for.  A note on costuming: If you want to know more about Italian garments, this is a good site: The Library - The Realm of 

If you want to see some of my work, look in my album from my profile page on MS.  I love to share.  My photos display several types of fabrics, and represent historical designs.

Hope that helped, feel free to post any other questions.


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## Ankari (May 8, 2012)

Thanks for your feedback Ani, 

The scene I am writing is taking place in August in a climate that would be be similar to Louisiana.  Its humid, hot and will rain frequently.  The lord I've introduced is a powerful one, but wasn't always so. 

So here would be a my question:

1) what kind of fabric would he use?

2) how would he wear it (loose, tight fitting, buttoned, embroided, etc)

3) would such a person wear a coat?

4) What would his pants be like?

And thanks again.  By the way, your gallery is stunning.  I love your handiwork.


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## Caged Maiden (May 8, 2012)

Well... you certainly have artistic license here.  I'd suggest you look online and find a time period and country you want to model your dress off of.  That alone would help me answer your questions.  

A couple generic answers to the questions you asked above:


1) what kind of fabric would he use? I'd suggest silk.  It's light, breathes, and is VERY expensive.  If you'd like to have a look at a research paper I did on Venetian dress, it discusses fabric a little but isn't a long read.  Let me know whether that would help you.  It sounds like you have a climate similar to that.

2) how would he wear it (loose, tight fitting, buttoned, embroided, etc) Okay so the richer someone is, the better tailored their clothing is in Europe (it fits tighter).  Also though, the more of it they use, so capes, cloaks, petticoats (underskirts) etc. would be worn.  Embroidery cost money.  It took time.  Nobles' outfits would have been heavily embroidered.  The black embroidery on the undergarments is called black work, but embroidery on outer garments could be done with silk or linen thread, or even gold or silver metal thread.  Many garments closed with hooks and eyes, even well-tailored tight-fitting ones.  Buttons were common though.  All buttons were shank buttons versus the four hole kind, and would have probably been wooden covered with silk embroidery or fabric.  Layers is the secret here.  Nobility displayed their wealth whenever they got a chance, and wealthy merchants often paid to break sumptuary laws (which allowed people of certain ranks to wear certain things, like a luxury tax).

3) would such a person wear a coat?  Most definitely, and embroidered kid-skin gloves, and hand knitted silk hose, and decoration on his shoes, a hat with jewels and feathers, and he probably carried a fine cane or gold-headed taxidermied weasel for fashion.  His coat was probably lined in fur, the best he could afford, and made of wool/ silk blend.  It would have been embroidered too, and bejeweled (put bling on everything if you can afford it).

4) What would his pants be like?  The history of pants is an interesting one.  the vikings had pants, but they were strange and sewn together weird.  They would not have laid flat when off.  The Huns actually introduced what we think of as pants to Europe, and they were embraced.  Now in different time periods, garments for the legs changed, so a time period would really help me answer your questions.  Like I said, I do a lot more 1570's than anything else, and there were only a few kinds of pants then.  So men would have worn some sort of hose (stockings) that went to about the knee.  they would have been wool if you were somewhat wealthy, but knitted silk if you were very wealthy.  Late in the 1500's there was a sort of pant/ hose combination, where before it did not exist.  Hose were sewn to underpants and then proper pants were worn over that.  If you have a hot climate, I'd vote for Venetians, they ought to do the trick and are pretty standard pants.  They go to just under the knee (which means he only wears knee-length stockings underneath in the heat).  They might button at a narrow cuff just below the knee, and the top would have a waistband and close with a codpiece.  

You can google images of all these things.  I tried to use proper terminology to ease you in googling, so good luck.  I can discuss clothing for hours I'd bet, so if you need any more help, ask more questions.  I can elaborate anything that wasn't clear.


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## Caged Maiden (May 8, 2012)

Oh, one more thing about clothing.  People (other than royalty) didn't have a lot of it.  The very wealthy might have a decent wardrobe, but minor nobles made do with interchanging different sleeves, wearing one doublet with a different set of pants, etc.

And, in their homes, even the nobility dressed down.  All the things I mentioned above are what you want to be seen in at court or at a tournament or while arranging your daughter's marriage.  You wore simple garments at home utilizing lower grade fabrics, simpler cuts, and no trim/ lace/ jewels.  Colors are also a major factor, as colors like black were VERY expensive and did not retain their color when washed and had to be redyed.  This was why clothing was washed sparingly and not worn at home.  An interesting fact, laundresses were respectable women who provided a very necessary function.  They used lye soaks and soaps to clean clothing and household linens, and laundry was a big job indeed!  People didn't do it unless they HAD to.


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## Ankari (May 8, 2012)

Thanks Ani, you're helping plenty.  I will google these terms one I narrow down the things to use.  I am actually kicking myself for not sharing more information about his setting in the previous post.  Let me narrow it down for you.

The time frame as far as technology would be between 1100 to 1300 AD

Silk will not have reached this area yet.  I need another fabric that would denote wealth and power.  The choices I see working are: wool, linen, cotton, furs (bears, wolves, and foxes), and leathers.

I forgot thread-of-gold and thread-of-silver.  Those can be used.

These people are isolated and have been so for some time.  I am trying to create a culture with limited influences from known cultures.  I am asking a lot, I know.  I just need to know what would be the richest cloth he would use from the list I've provided and any additional feedback you may have. 

Who would have thought that a fantasy writer needs to know fashion....

Thanks again!


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## Caged Maiden (May 9, 2012)

Well in that case, I'd say linen is your best bet.  I don't see a reason cotton wouldn't be used as well if your climate is hotter, but linen was the staple for Northern European clothing during that time, and wool a close second.  You will want to get into the sophistication of your clothing.  Are men wearing pants and tunics like vikings?  If yes, then google viking clothing.  They wore bronze brooches and jewelry of silver, used embroidery to dress up loads of things, and had plenty of furs.  

If your culture is more middle East, well then scratch all that I just said and go for Ottoman clothing or even Byzantine.  Also very rich but of completely different style.

Unfortunately, what I do is much later, and so a lot of my practical knowledge might be inapplicable to your project.  However, leather is a common man's garment with the exception of the soft leather doublets that were very tailored.  If you wore a leather jerkin, that is common.  Boots were also common, shoes preferred by the upper classes (Wiki Cordwainers).  If however, you are writing a clannish, barbarian type setting, you will not have "finery" of the same sort.  It will be much more utilitarian clothing, but with say semi-precious stone clasps or jewelry.

Post gain if you need anything more.  I also used to work for a guy who recreated early jewelry and stuff.  He was a lost wax caster who got to travel to museums around the world and fondle actual artifacts to re create them.  I am pretty knowledgeable about early bronze jewelry.


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## gavintonks (May 9, 2012)

considering that cotton was plentiful in the past as a natural fiber to weave copious amounts of cloth to clothe everyone, however the expense would be in laundering and ensuring a clean slub, no breaks or pills or bits of stuff in the weave.So the finesse of the cloth would be important egyptian cotton being much more sort after for its fine thread quality.
The other would be the whiteness of the cloth, as that would set  people apart in having white clothes as it means you did not wear it every day.
expensive dies and fine embroidery, monograms and pocket emblems would set the clothing apart from a rougher courser weave of a workers cloth.


The quality of the cloth is in the production method whether it has a pile or how thinly the yearn is prepared and weather it is spun clockwise or anti clockwise 
Any fibre can be woven from animal hair to plant but it is the lightness, and flexibility that is sort after.
India weaves a slubbed silk which looks like stiff banana leaves which is amazing to use.


Other fibers despite their not being wools and other animal hair or plant fibres from sisal to grass which is unlikely to be a fine linen cloth
I highly doubt wool would be a choice of cloth in a hot climate as the air is trapped in the process retaining heat
Felt would be a consideration, leather as well, how ever their is a weight issue and of course heat making the wearing uncomfortable

You can use anything from a chicken skin to frogs and fish, some of the most beautiful fiber I handled was made from fish iridescent scales, beading and embroidery, 
It is the skill of the artisan to produce the quality of cloth


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## Kit (May 9, 2012)

Anihow, are you familiar with wrap pants? Speaking of these things:
Super Comfortable Wrap Pants Â« Laupre
Often the ankles of these are tied up in big floppy bows on the sides.

*Not* Thai fisherman's pants which to my knowledge is a different garment.
Bodhi Tree Learning Center and Mekong Medicinals &mdash; Thai Fisherman Pants

Although I have seen the names swapped, and all sorts of other names as well...

Do you know anything about the origins of wrap pants?


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## Aidan of the tavern (May 9, 2012)

My main problem is identifying the technical terms for various items of clothing.  I'm also really bad at describing clothing so bear with me.  I was wondering if there was a name for the kind of tunic thing where the cloth extends almost to the ground at the back, but not at the front?


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## Caged Maiden (May 9, 2012)

Kit said:


> Anihow, are you familiar with wrap pants? Speaking of these things:
> Super Comfortable Wrap Pants Â« Laupre
> Often the ankles of these are tied up in big floppy bows on the sides.
> 
> ...



"I'll have a look.  They're not historically European, and I'm not too learned about Asian clothing, but I'll look a  little.  Perhaps it's African or Mideastern.


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## Kit (May 9, 2012)

anihow said:


> "I'll have a look.  They're not historically European, and I'm not too learned about Asian clothing, but I'll look a  little.  Perhaps it's African or Mideastern.



I'd really appreciate any info. I want to put my characters into these pants. I've also wondered about their origins just out of curiosity for a long time (I've been wearing the things for decades!). 

Thai fisherman's pants are awesome as well. I'm the one in all the weird ethnic clothes.  

I've seen the wrap pants on the Thai Craft Warehouse site (they call them "drive-in pants" and a handful of other names, depending on which page you're looking at), but I don't know if that means they come from that region. (It's kind of a tourist-trap site.... I know some of their Asian character translations are questionable..... I love their fisherman's pants, though.)

Most of the wrap pants pics I was able to find on the web while I was looking for a pic to reference here do *not* have the ankles tied. I always tie up my ankles on the sides of the calves; I'm curious as to what the purpose of the garment's cut/folding is if you're not gonna tie the ankles? I have seen them worn (with untied ankles) as dance clothes, but one wouldn't think they had originally evolved for that purpose alone.   

My main objective- just in case you note anything interesting while you're looking around- is that my MC's are living in a swamp and I thought it would be handy to wear pants that you could tie the legs up whilst sloshing through the mud. The Thai fisherman's pants can be worn short, but you really have to take those things all the way off and retie/refold them to change the length of the legs. They are bulky and a bit of a PITA to deal with in that respect (which begs the question, why do they wear them to fish in?). The wrap pants: you can change how the legs are, you can also visit the restroom, without having to untie the waist ties.


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## gavintonks (May 9, 2012)

probably a toga,


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## Caged Maiden (May 9, 2012)

regarding wrap pants, and completely devoid of any historical context:  I would design the pants the way you like for your characters.  If they were made of light fabric, they would dry very quickly in the sun, and I've sent more than a little time slogging through swamps and river in Wisconsin all summer, and even jeans and sneakers dry pretty quickly if there's sun.  

I'd make them of light cotton if it's available, and use pleating or gathering to create bulk, like in The Swaggy Gentleman: Sarouel / Aladdin pants / Harem pants  I know that's not exactly the look you're probably looking for, but it might give some ideas.  These would be thin and dry quickly, also, because they're gathered to the waist and leg, they would be easy to work in and wear in marshy wetlands.

Don't know whether that helps.  I didn't look around for pics, just found the first site that had many examples.


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