# What exactly is wrong with swearing?



## Gryphos (Nov 23, 2015)

So I swear all the time. Literally all the time. I don't think I ever go more than five sentences without some kind of swear word thrown in somewhere. I never really considered the supposed morality of such a habit, until recently, when I asked myself: What exactly is wrong with swearing?

And after some thought I realised, I have absolutely no clue. Like, seriously, none. To me the F word, the S word, the C word, etc. are all fairly harmless. At least, no more harmful than any other word. And yet western society seems to group these otherwise unrelated words together in a box labelled 'bad'. It's actually quite remarkable.

Perhaps it's the leftovers of a predominantly christian mindset which still lingers in our culture, but if so, then that doesn't make it any less stupid.

Hell, I'd even swear around kids. Why not? Shit is just another word for poo, and we're allowed to say that around kids. F*ck has sexual connotations, but I also firmly believe that sex shouldn't be dodged around either when children are concerned.

I dunno, it's just strange to me. Maybe someone can enlighten me on what exactly is morally reprehensible about swearing.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 23, 2015)

I would never f***ing swear in front of my kids, or they'd sound like a bunch of little sh**s and all those a**holes at the supermarket would look at me like I'm more of a d***head than a dad.

Western/religion doesn't have a lot to do with it. I lived in Hong Kong, and there were words you weren't supposed to say. It does beg the question, _why invent words if you're not supposed to use them?_ In that respect, I see what you're getting at. But even though I used the F-word expertly at the age of 7, I wouldn't want _my_ 7-year-old to talk like that. Having taught for 10 years (and I hope that number never goes to 11), I can tell you that the kids who don't see a problem with dropping F-bombs in the classroom also don't care about several other aspects in life.

As a guy, the F-word is just a word. As a parent, not using it in front of my kids is modeling the kind of self-control I want them to have, not just in terms of word choice, but also in manners, self-respect, not drawing negative attention, etc.


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## Nagash (Nov 23, 2015)

I don't know what western country you live in, but as far as my own is concerned, we swear all the time as well, and in many different ways. I'm given to understand that only a fragment of the socio-economic spectrum of the population would shy away from using swear words in common life situations. Swearing has been trivialized in such a fashion, that most of the time, no one actually uses them with their original meaning in mind. 

So yeah... I don't see swearing as being reprehensible at all, and few people in my surroundings would correct me about this, save from my grandparents perhaps.


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## Stephyn Blackwood (Nov 23, 2015)

I don't know... Maybe it's just my upbringing, or where I grew up (Glasgow, Scotland, notorious for it's language) but swearing has never really offended me. And I do use it quite regularly. Although, I just feel that some words should be used in certain situations. swearing may not be appropriate around children, but nor is it appropriate in a serious, professional conversation. Like with your doctor or something.

But as a comedy implement? I cannot possibly tell a joke or a story without dropping the F word. It just comes naturally to me. By the time I hit age 10, my dad was doing it around the house to express himself. And once I hit 16, I used it just as freely as he did. It just felt natural.

But honestly, I don't see what's wrong with swearing. I use it quite a lot in my writing, and I've had a couple of characters who've been unable to speak a line without dropping some sort of swear.


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## Tom (Nov 23, 2015)

I have no f*cking problem with swearing. After all, I am a liberal millennial studying in the arts field, which is well-known for being "full of liberalism". If my life were a movie, most of the dialogue would have to be censored to keep it in the PG-13 rating bracket. 

I am totally comfortable with dropping the F-bomb. With saying sh*t. I am not comfortable, however, with using the word c***. Because of where I'm coming from, I object to that word, as it's usually used on women. I don't like that. 

Though I don't object to (most) swearing, I do know people who do--most of my family. They object to it on religious grounds, which makes sense. I mean, the New Testament does have several verses about keeping your speech pure. I try to put a filter on it when I'm around them, mostly out of self-preservation rather than anything else. (My paternal grandmother might just murder me if she could hear some of the things I've said.)

Outside of the realm of religion, I honestly have no idea why some words are so offensive. Most of them are just synonyms for words we use without qualms. What's the point?


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## Russ (Nov 23, 2015)

I used to have a bad foul language habit.  Picked it up in the military.  Took me a long time to divest myself of it effectively.

Anyways, on the larger point, the reason that swearing is often considered bad is because it violates certain community norms.  

Now community norms can be good, bad or indifferent, but there are social consequences for violating them.  You get to chose whether or not you want to suffer those consequences when you act.

There are lots of community norms that don't have a rational, scientific or other specific basis, but there is an argument that they do fulfill a purpose.

It also depends on how you value the feelings or sensibilities of the people around you.  That, once again, is a personal decision you have to make.


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## Mindfire (Nov 23, 2015)

I personally try to avoid swearing. I don't have a perfect record in that regard, but generally I don't like it. There are a few reasons for that. It's partly because of my religion and how I was raised, but also because- quite frankly- I think it's beneath me. It sounds coarse and unpleasant, and I don't think it really adds anything of value to conversation nine times out of ten. I tolerate it from my friends, though they know I don't care for it and try to reign it in when I'm around. However, if I meet you and you open with a bunch of swear words right off the bat, I will immediately form a very low opinion of your intelligence and decide I want nothing to do with you. I tend to write people off pretty quickly, which can be a flaw or an asset depending on the situation.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 23, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick: I know why they invent words but then don't let us use them If you want a history lesson…. 

So, before 1066 in England the saxons had their own language. It was sort of a combo of germanic and a bunch of other pagan languages. When William the Conquerer came over from France he brought French nobility with him. The french spoke, french, obviously. The saxon language was considered 'slave' or 'servant' language, and was the lowly, dirty, immoral language. 

Sh*T
f*ck
C***

were saxon words. To the saxons they were totally normal, every day words. To the french nobility they were disgusting, low, servant words, and so were forbidden at court…. where we get the word' courtesy' from… so avoiding those words, even today, is just considered 'courtesy'…. Isn't that crazy! 

Also, this is why the livestock version of some words are english, but the 'cooked/prepared' version is french: 

Cow vs. Beef (boef) 

or Deer vs. venison 

etc. The saxons were farming the animals, but the french nobility were eating them.


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## Miskatonic (Nov 23, 2015)

Swearing is an art form. It can be delightful or maddening, depending on who is using it.


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## Penpilot (Nov 23, 2015)

I don't have any problems with people swearing. But I think there's a time and place for it.

Whether we like it or not, certain words carry baggage beyond their literal meaning, so using them at an inappropriate time can be rude.

I think swearing or not, is about respect and being self aware.  If I'm at a quiet restaurant and want to enjoy a nice meal with a friend, I don't want to sit next to loud mouths, worse yet loud mouths that are constantly dropping F-bombs etc. 

But like I said, it's about time and place. I don't have kids, but if I did, I wouldn't have a problem with them swearing as long as it was the right time and place for it. IMHO, instead of making swearing taboo, teach them when they can and cannot do it is probably a more valuable life tool.


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## Pythagoras (Nov 23, 2015)

I've heard somewhere before that swearing is just a poor attempt at adding shock value to their speech by those who are limited in their lexicon. 

I do swear, and I consider my lexicon to be fairly well-developed, but I think this statement does have some level of truth to it.


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## Tom (Nov 23, 2015)

I have an extensive vocabulary. One of the things I did when I was bored as a kid was choose a random dictionary page and read all the entries on it. This sounds like a terrible idea to current me, but hey--when you're a kid with ADD, you'll do anything to keep from getting bored. 

Anyway, I use a huge variety of words in my everyday speech. But I reserve swear words for when normal words don't quite pack the same punch. 

Only expletives sound right to yell when you've stubbed your toe.


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## Caged Maiden (Nov 23, 2015)

I swear when i'm angry, when I'm happy, or when I'm comfortable.  I know that might sound like all the time, but there are a few times that I don't swear as a rule.  At work, with clients, with people I don't know well enough, or with someone else's kids.  If I went to church, I wound's swear there, either.

I guess the worst thing I "accidentally' say is shit, in the place of "stuff".  That one I do kinda often on accident.  But other than that, I talk like a sailor in my home and with my friends I know well, but if it isn't an appropriate time or place, i have no problems naturally omitting my favorite words from my dialogue.   

I think in writing, it carries a bigger impact than in real life, so I swear sparingly on the page.


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## skip.knox (Nov 24, 2015)

I think this belongs to General Patton: No man can call himself a gentleman unless he can swear for three minutes without repeating himself.

But I would distinguish between swearing and profanity. The latter is using words that are considered taboo and/or disgusting by the dominant culture. Those words are used, or were originally intended, to shock, which degrades neatly into being used for emphasis. Those who overuse such words degrade them further into being used mainly as punctuation.

Swearing has a different origin. To swear means to take an oath, with overtones of civic responsibility if not of divine authority. To swear when one is not intending to keep one's word, to swear trivially, is therefore at the very least irresponsible, maybe offensive, and at worst a form of sin.

As with so much else in modern life, what's proper or improper today depends almost entirely on the specific cultural milieu--in whose house you are. Which is one thing that makes the Internet such a socially treacherous place. You never know in whose house you are. On the modern Internet, everyone knows you're a dog, but nobody agrees on what kind of dog you are. (reference to a classic cartoon)


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## Gryphos (Nov 25, 2015)

Pythagoras said:
			
		

> I've heard somewhere before that swearing is just a poor attempt at adding shock value to their speech by those who are limited in their lexicon.



F*ck that!


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## NerdyCavegirl (Nov 26, 2015)

I see absolutely no problem with it. I don't care what words the French found offensive 400 years ago, I couldn't care any less what is considered offensive now. I have no regard whatsoever for any other social conventions or expectations either. As long as they have a well-developed vocabulary otherwise, as overusing any word is irritating, I see no reason why a 4 year old can't say "I'm tired of this ****ing shit" if they damn well are. Then again, I grew up in a family where we call each other bitches and assholes as a compliment. My only exception to the rule is when following a social convention is more directly beneficial to me or a loved one than not doing so. I feel no shame whatsoever unless I fail in my goals.


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## Ban (Nov 26, 2015)

Generally i consider cursing indicative of a weak will. If someone can't even control their language, how can i expect them to control more important things? If someone can't even refrain from using a few words all the time then how can they prevent themselves from acting on other impulses?

Besides that i think it means the person in question is uncreative. Why use the same couple of words to insult if you can do the same thing in much more beautiful and creative ways.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 26, 2015)

Today, I got a kick out of my three-year-old when she yelled "What's your plan, Dude?" as YouTube paused a Mickey Shorts strip to load, and before dinner: "You have to kill the fly or it will eat all the Thanksgiving dinner!" If she yelled WTF at the TV or "Swat the little shit, Daddy," I wouldn't be laughing. I'd be worried. Did she hear that word come out of my mouth? Will she talk like that at preschool?


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## Garren Jacobsen (Nov 26, 2015)

[video=youtube_share;8ZP3AXgdkq0]https://youtu.be/8ZP3AXgdkq0[/video]

As the episode from which this clip comes from above indicates it could be you bald, fat, yellow neighbor that teaches them to swear.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 26, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Today, I got a kick out of my three-year-old when she yelled "What's your plan, Dude?" as YouTube paused a Mickey Shorts strip to load, and before dinner: "You have to kill the fly or it will eat all the Thanksgiving dinner!" If she yelled WTF at the TV or "Swat the little shit, Daddy," I wouldn't be laughing. I'd be worried. Did she hear that word come out of my mouth? Will she talk like that at preschool?



My preschooler always says "What the pow-pow?" instead of "What the he**." It cracks me up so much.

And at our house we don't say "stupid" because I think it is rude, so if he is really mad he will say "Well, this is a word I shouldn't be saying!"


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## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 27, 2015)

My wife did a better job with the don't-say-stupid rule than I did. Yeah, I agree it's not so much no-swearing as it is no-rudeness (that we teach/model to our little ones).


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## Gryphos (Nov 28, 2015)

Banten said:
			
		

> Generally i consider cursing indicative of a weak will. If someone can't even control their language, how can i expect them to control more important things? If someone can't even refrain from using a few words all the time then how can they prevent themselves from acting on other impulses?



This begs the question, though, why _should_ someone control their language in this way and avoid swearing? This goes back to the original question: what exactly _is_ wrong with swearing?



			
				Legendary Sidekick said:
			
		

> My wife did a better job with the don't-say-stupid rule than I did. Yeah, I agree it's not so much no-swearing as it is no-rudeness (that we teach/model to our little ones).



This I can definitely agree with. Rudeness is never good. But I find it strange that people too often associate swearing with rudeness, when is about as stupid as associating adjectives with rudeness.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 28, 2015)

I guess the difference is the tone that is used, or what is implied… 

So, if my teenager was to tell me to "F*ck off!" 

vs. 

"Mom, I disagree with you about this. Can we talk about it, please? And maybe we can come to an agreement?"

In our house we try to model respect, and speaking to each other with respect is a big part of that. The later is how our kids hear us talk to each other… They would NEVER hear the former from us, and we would never accept the former from them.

But this goes back to when they were infants. Instead of "ta-ta" like I see some older people do, we simply just said "please" when they wanted us to hand us something.


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## Gryphos (Nov 28, 2015)

Heliotrope said:
			
		

> So, if my teenager was to tell me to "F*ck off!"
> 
> vs.
> 
> "Mom, I disagree with you about this. Can we talk about it, please? And maybe we can come to an agreement?"



I feel as thought you're assuming that swearing equals aggression, or that swearing equals rudeness. Rudeness should never be tolerated, and certainly all parents should strive to teach their kids common courtesy. But what does swearing have to do with any of that?


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## Garren Jacobsen (Nov 28, 2015)

I honestly don't understand this argument. It seems to presuppose that only swearing has an arbitrary meaning associated with it. Thing is every word's meaning is arbitrary. There is no natural meaning to any word. Humans give each word meaning. The reason why swearing is considered taboo is because society says so. That is literally the only reason. We may as well just start asking why some words are considered good words. Why does the word awesome mean something good? What about terrific? That has the same basic root as terrified.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 28, 2015)

All words carry meanings and connotations. Yes, it is society that says so. You can't expect to change the meaning or connotation of a word, phrase or idiom because you disagree with it. Language naturally evolves because of society.

I was telling a friend about how, while in Rome, I saved a bus full of teenagers from a gun-toting Neo Nazi by using the F-word in front of a nun. This is a true story. The kids were pointing and laughing at the Neo Nazis from the upper deck, and one boarded. I was a 21-year-old "chaperone" and when a gun-toting nut boarded our bus because the naive private school kids didn't realize how dangerous the situation was, I stood up and intended to say, "Guys, don't piss them off." When I got to the word "don't," I realized that I was about to say "piss" in front of not one, but _two_ nuns. They were sitting next to me. Even if we're all gonna die, I can't talk like that. I didn't pause, but kept the sentence going with whatever happened to roll off the tongue. It came out as, "Guys, don't f*** with them." The St.B's students were shocked that I swore in front of the nuns. They all sat down and shut up. I looked at the nuns and the one closest to me gave a nod of approval.

I'm not saying the F-word is morally wrong. I am saying it's powerful. You can like it, love it or hate it, but you can't deny it, and you're a fool to underestimate it. Me? I respect the F-word and wield its power like a f***ing bastard sword.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 28, 2015)

No, perhaps I wasn't quite as clear as I would have liked. I tried to say that what matters is the tone that is used or what is implied. So my two examples are one instance, but wielding it like you did is another instance all together where it was effective and not particularly rude. I think "shut the f up" is different then "go f yourself"... They carry different weights. Like any words, they have weights when used in certain context... 

And perhaps I'm just old fashioned, and to me words have value (even if socially placed). A rose, if called a skunk cabbage, just wouldn't smell as sweet  

So the f word, when used in appropriate context, is the best possible word, and I do use it often. 

But like terrific, or terrible, it is not right in every situation...


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## Devor (Nov 28, 2015)

My wife is from Connecticut, and she considers hell, damn, sucks and crap to be swear words.  She was grimacing at my use of these words even when we were by ourselves, before we even had children.

We teach our children that there are curse words, which we should never use, and "bully words," which they should never use until they understand how to use them _carefully_.

Whatever people say, cursing is not really a religious thing.  There's even some cursing in the Bible, old Hebrew and Greek words that get translated into sanitized English.

Curse words also change over time.  For instance, whatever the FCC thinks, I would argue that f*g is a lot more offensive to people than some of the words forbidden on television.

The simple fact of the matter is, words matter.  We avoid words all the time because people find them weak.  Why shouldn't we avoid a few that people find too strong?


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## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 28, 2015)

Devor said:


> My wife is from Connecticut, and she considers hell, damn, sucks and crap to be swear words.


Oh great... and here I was telling my story about how I thwarted the Nazis in Rome with the F-bomb, using the F-word (for accuracy), and the guy I was telling is from Connecticut. Now don't I feel like a Masshole-without-an-M.


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## Ban (Nov 29, 2015)

Gryphos said:


> This begs the question, though, why _should_ someone control their language in this way and avoid swearing? This goes back to the original question: what exactly _is_ wrong with swearing?



I think it dates back to the time period of Bourgeois society to the first world war. During this time the high and middle class people were continually striving to supress their supposed "base instincts". Many thing became taboo during this time. Sex and profanity for example. This time period is what caused Freud to develop his theories as a counter to society and if you read his work then i think you'll understand how suppresive his time must have been.


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## NerdyCavegirl (Nov 29, 2015)

Banten said:


> Generally i consider cursing indicative of a weak will. If someone can't even control their language, how can i expect them to control more important things? If someone can't even refrain from using a few words all the time then how can they prevent themselves from acting on other impulses?
> 
> Besides that i think it means the person in question is uncreative. Why use the same couple of words to insult if you can do the same thing in much more beautiful and creative ways.



But what if they simply don't CHOOSE to control their language? What if they see no point in sparing the masses from a little offense? We supress enough of our nature already. xD Why waste the time and effort to state something beautifully and creatively when the audience is unlikely to understand it regardless? Don't get me wrong, I love a roundabout way of telling people they're stupid as much as the next person, but it's usually more efficient to keep things short and to the point.


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## Ban (Nov 29, 2015)

If they don't choose to control their language but are mentally fully capable of doing so then i just think that they are lacking in empathy, rebelious for no good reason (Attention seekers) or they lack understanding/respect of social rules. Which is similar to lacking empathy, but not quite the same.


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## Gryphos (Nov 29, 2015)

Banten said:


> If they don't choose to control their language but are mentally fully capable of doing so then i just think that they are lacking in empathy, rebelious for no good reason (Attention seekers) or they lack understanding/respect of social rules. Which is similar to lacking empathy, but not quite the same.



But what if you understand the social rules, but just think they're shit? It's not about being rebellious for rebelliousness' sake, that requires an acknowledgement of the order being rebelled against. In the case of people who enthusiastically curse, I feel as if it's more about simply ignoring stupid rules that serve no purpose.

Every rightly taboo word has a very understandable reason for it to be so (racial slurs, for example). However, there is no physical reason for someone to take offence at the word 'f*ck'. As a verb and a noun, it means sex. Unless someone somehow finds sex offensive (in which case, I would suggest therapy), there's no reason to be afraid of the word 'f*ck'.


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## Ban (Nov 29, 2015)

Oh yes i agree that words like f*ck have largely lost their meaning and while i do not condone using these words oftenly or in inappropriate situations (like a funeral) i do not consider them to be on the same level as what i described before. 

In the Netherlands it has become very standard to curse with disease for whatever reason. This i just consider unacceptable for the exact reasons that is stated. If someone wishes cancer upon someone else than i feel justified to think of them as having a weak will or being socially incapable.


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## Gryphos (Nov 29, 2015)

Banten said:
			
		

> and while i do not condone using these words oftenly or in inappropriate situations (like a funeral)



Why not a funeral, though? What counts as an inappropriate situation to use a perfectly harmless word?



> If someone wishes cancer upon someone else than i feel justified to think of them as having a weak will or being socially incapable.



This I can understand. Cancer carries various harmful connotations (trivialising the suffering of cancer-patients, over-visceralising a verbal attack, etc.). Unless you're amongst a group of friends who all know you don't mean it, throwing around visceral attacks is definitely a no-no.


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## Ban (Nov 29, 2015)

Gryphos said:


> Why not a funeral, though? What counts as an inappropriate situation to use a perfectly harmless word?



For the same reason you don't talk about sex or drugs at a funeral. Ok things to do in my book, but there are things you just don't do at these kind of things. Call it convention if you want. I call it being an adult and behaving like one.

 Also i never said that the word "f*ck" is harmless. I said that it is not on the same level as wishing someone to have cancer. The simple thing that this word is used to harm someone makes it harmful. The intention behind a word is important and if a certain intention is so often coupled with a certain word then it might as well be synonymous with the word.


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## Metanoiac (Nov 29, 2015)

I think in some circumstances the purpose of the ritual is to single-focus intent. Like at a funeral, the intent is to honor or end association with the dead person, and the participants' focus is supposed to be on accomplishing that. If someone were to begin speaking about sex or cursing, that would break the single-focus of the group, and therefore be "wrong".


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## Gryphos (Nov 29, 2015)

Banten said:
			
		

> For the same reason you don't talk about sex or drugs at a funeral. Ok things to do in my book, but there are things you just don't do at these kind of things. Call it convention if you want. I call it being an adult and behaving like one.



Fair enough. In verb or noun form, 'f*ck' may well be inappropriate at a funeral (though of course this depends on the overall atmosphere of the event). But what about in adjective or adverb form ('f*cking'), which by this point has no sexual connotations?



> Also i never said that the word "f*ck" is harmless. I said that it is not on the same level as wishing someone to have cancer. The simple thing that this word is used to harm someone makes it harmful. The intention behind a word is important and if a certain intention is so often coupled with a certain word then it might as well be synonymous with the word.



See, this probably comes down to personal experience, but in south London, where I come from, swearing is so common that the word 'f*ck' doesn't have the harmful connotations you're talking about. It's just punctuation, used to add emphasis to a statement.

What we've established is that the word 'f*ck' is harmful to some people, because those people believe it is harmful, while technically, going by its definition, they have no logical reason to believe it's harmful – they just do.

If I may say, it's all pretty f*cking silly.


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## Ban (Nov 29, 2015)

But you are wrong in that. There is logic behind why we find it harmful and that is the same reason why you do not find it harmful. The environments we have grown up in determine what is considered good and bad. Swearing or not swearing is like a ritual. There are specific circumstances to be met. And i believe rituals are important, because they are what make humans feel connected in society. Sure this one thing might seem silly to you, but you are acclimated to this word. By saying that condemning the usage of swearing you are basically making the (probably not conscious) point that your culture is better than mine. Or that your background is more logical, which i disagree with because of the many afore mentioned reasons


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## Jackarandajam (Nov 29, 2015)

To me, swearing is like dressing like a slob, or not practicing proper hygene (there were times in history when people didn't brush their teeth and straight men wore high heels... The past is dead. I'm talking about the present). 
Your close friends or family will forgive you for morning breath or a stained t-shirt (or the occasional wirty dord), but if you walk around town with crap in your teeth, wearing a beer-stained t-top and jeggings (or spouting profanity), people are going to act toward you in a certain, understandable, leery fashion. 

Lack of hygiene or improper dress (or pervasive language) are decisions that an individual makes, and are entirely their prerogative. 
They are considered, though, by most SOCIETY, to be slovenly, socially improper, rude, unprofessional, and indicative of laziness and a general lack of care or empathy. 
This depends on the society, of course; cursing during a speech is not appreciated at a business development conference, whereas, at a frat house graduation ceremony, it may be less frowned upon. 
In some friend circles, to refrain from cursing is strange. In others, the word crap draws a titter and a gasp.


blasphemous language is, of course, frowned upon by followers of the diety or religion that it blasphemes.
With that exception, I would argue that whether or not profanity (or which profanity) is offensive depends entirely on who is around you.

Culturally, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being offended by language.
Therefore, because children aren't the best judge when it comes to "what to say around who," the polite thing to do is teach them not to curse. 
Also, it teaches children that if something is offensive, and there is no moral imperative to uphold your freedom as an individual on the subject, it shows a strength of character to refrain from being offensive.

I agree that if profanity is the glue that holds your entire vocabulary together, you should work on your ability to verbalize yourself in a manner that doesn't REQUIRE it, even if you choose to use it anyway.

Sometimes, when someone says something stupid or hurtful, the profanity trained brain looking for the quickest rebuttal will throw out a quick "well F*** your couch!" or the like, instead of actually trying to respond in a way that explains to the person (and those listening) WHY what they said is unreasonable. Whereas a thoughtful question or rebuttal could do someone in range of the debate some good, the only person profanity actually helps during an argument is you.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 29, 2015)

Gryphos said:


> Every rightly taboo word has a very understandable reason for it to be so (racial slurs, for example).


Okay, so you're now saying that racial slurs must be taboo, but the F-word should not be. I have former students who disagree with you on the racial slurs point, and they argued with me on that too. Many of my former students thought it was okay to address each other with a certain racial slur (which didn't apply to them or me). When used in that context, it was not a racial slur, they said. It was like saying "buddy" or "dude" or something.

I didn't agree, and I told them no matter what the word might mean to them, the word has a history. To blurt that word out in public would make them appear to be racists.

My point is, you probably agree that my students are wrong to think a racial slur is harmless, but I don't see how that's any more in denial than saying the F-word is harmless. Harmless to you, harmless to me (though I don't say it in front of the kids), sure, but for many the word invokes negative feelings. You can't fault people for being bothered by the F-word for the same reason you can't fault people for being bothered by racial slurs. The F-word means "sex." [Racial slur] means [race].

What about the middle finger? You were born with that, everyone has one, and it's not a private part. So why can't you just flip everyone off? When someone asks what's wrong with you, you say in an innocent voice, "Wha-a-a-at... it's just a finger. I point with it because it's longer than my index finger; therefore, it's the better pointing finger. Hey, look, an airplane! Oh, I offended you? Well that's your fault for allowing a harmless finger to offend you."


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## Gryphos (Nov 30, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:
			
		

> My point is, you probably agree that my students are wrong to think a racial slur is harmless, but I don't see how that's any more in denial than saying the F-word is harmless. Harmless to you, harmless to me (though I don't say it in front of the kids), sure, but for many the word invokes negative feelings. You can't fault people for being bothered by the F-word for the same reason you can't fault people for being bothered by racial slurs. The F-word means "sex." [Racial slur] means [race].



Except for the fact that the word 'f*ck' doesn't have the same history as, say, the N-word. The latter was used as a term to refer to black people who racists saw as inferior, less than human, and so the word carries huge baggage (in a vacuum, that is – in specific social situations many people choose to use it and it doesn't carry that baggage, which I've got no place to scorn them for). The former, on the other hand, just means sex. Whether they are or not, people do have a very real reason to be wary of the connotations of the N-word, but to be wary of sex? To me that's just bullshit. Obviously, by this point it seems people are more wary of the actual word 'f*ck' as opposed to what it means, but to me that's also bullshit. I understand that people can't help if this harmless word invokes negative feelings in them, but I would still implore them to question why exactly that is.



> What about the middle finger? You were born with that, everyone has one, and it's not a private part. So why can't you just flip everyone off? When someone asks what's wrong with you, you say in an innocent voice, "Wha-a-a-at... it's just a finger. I point with it because it's longer than my index finger; therefore, it's the better pointing finger. Hey, look, an airplane! Oh, I offended you? Well that's your fault for allowing a harmless finger to offend you."



This doesn't really work as an analogy because flipping someone off is a specific gesture targeting a person, a gesture which basically means 'f*ck you'. Therefore, if someone flipped me off, I'd have every reason to be angry. Just like how if someone said to me 'f*ck you', I'd have every reason to be angry. If someone insults you, or says something to you in an aggressive manner, of course you're going to be offended! Why wouldn't you be? But if I'm talking to someone and they say 'that film is f*cking awesome' or 'f*ck me, it's cold', that's completely fine to me, and to be honest, it should be fine to everyone.


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## Devor (Nov 30, 2015)

Gryphos said:


> The former, on the other hand, just means sex.



Does it?  That strikes me as a major assumption on your part.  I mean, by that logic, the n* word _just_ refers to the color black and to people living around the Niger River.

I just looked it up.  The first known usage of the f-word referring to sex?  Somebody called "Roger F*ckethenavele," a nickname referring to somebody so stupid they . . . . well, "the navel."  In 1310.

^I mean, dude, the word's always been about being graphic, mean and vulgar.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Nov 30, 2015)

Gryphos said:


> _*...it should be fine to everyone.*_(emphasis mine)



What? Why? This is imposing your own personal set of morals on the entirety of the English speaking population. That seems...presumptuous. Look, man, just because you aren't offended by a certain word and think it's hunky-dory does not mean everyone does, nor should it mean everyone should. Seriously, the f-word has always and will always mean graphic and violent sex and often times implies that it be non- or barely-consensual. 

No matter how you slice it the reason why swearing is considered offensive is because society has attached an offensive meaning. Just because you don't find offense doesn't mean that the word does not offend. You're fighting against society, which brings me back to my original post. Why do words have meaning? Because society says they do. Terrific, terrified, they used to mean pretty similar things. Now, one means great they other means scared. So for right now the F-word is offensive, maybe in 15-100 years this will change, but it is not changing today.


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## Russ (Dec 1, 2015)

Gryphos said:


> I understand that people can't help if this harmless word invokes negative feelings in them, but I would still implore them to question why exactly that is.



 I would implore people to think about why children in Africa are starving, or literacy rates are falling in some places, or how to stop female genital mutilation, or how to inspire people to better educational achievements, or how to help the mentally ill or many millions of other things before I asked them to dig into the swearing question.

To me the use of swear words around people who are offended by them is simply a lack of respect for the people around you.  It's not really much more complicated than that.

To many people the word is not harmless, as you think it is.  And one of the things I have learned in my life it that the world does not rotate around my sorry ass and some consideration for the sensitivities of others, even if I don't have the same sensitivities, is simply polite conduct.


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## Gryphos (Dec 1, 2015)

Brian Scott Allen said:
			
		

> What? Why? This is imposing your own personal set of morals on the entirety of the English speaking population. That seems...presumptuous. Look, man, just because you aren't offended by a certain word and think it's hunky-dory does not mean everyone does, nor should it mean everyone should.



From an objective standpoint, absolutely not. Subjectively, I _believe_ that they should. Obviously I can respect people's personal views and opinions, but I cannot always condone them.



			
				Russ said:
			
		

> I would implore people to think about why children in Africa are starving, or literacy rates are falling in some places, or how to stop female genital mutilation, or how to inspire people to better educational achievements, or how to help the mentally ill or many millions of other things before I asked them to dig into the swearing question.



I would implore people to think about all that and more – none of those are mutually exclusive.



> To me the use of swear words around people who are offended by them is simply a lack of respect for the people around you. It's not really much more complicated than that.
> 
> To many people the word is not harmless, as you think it is. And one of the things I have learned in my life it that the world does not rotate around my sorry ass and some consideration for the sensitivities of others, even if I don't have the same sensitivities, is simply polite conduct.



I 100% agree. If I'm having a conversation with someone and they say that swearing makes them uncomfortable, of course I'll lay off it – as you say, that's simply polite conduct. It's the same for anything. If someone was for some strange reason made really uncomfortable by the word 'custard', I would be confused, but I would, so long as I was around them, refrain from using the word 'custard'.

If I know what someone's sensitivities are, then I will be courteous and oblige them to the best of my ability, just like I would hope someone else would oblige my own sensitivities in conversation.


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## WhiteCrow (Dec 13, 2015)

Let's clarify a few things yes? 

First the N-word was actually first applied to useless slobs - the bottom dregs of society - regardless of their skin tone. The actual meaning is, after all, about shiftless moral-less layabouts. The sort that any respectable person wouldn't want in their house. 

And if you go down welfare alley, you find just as many slack jawed whites lazing about as you do people with "colored" skin [I work at an addiction / rehab pharmacy - 90% of our clients are white & welfare (and have little obvious physical or mental problem)]. 

Unfortunately, due to people crying racism and also rewriting of history, etc. [which does happen] you won't find the original definition anymore, or rarely, as Webster's has rewritten itself a few dozen times in the last decade or so. 


As for swearing in general, I agree with jackarandajam. 

Excessive swearing is indeed "lack of hygiene". It marks people lower on the totem pole. You won't hear someone of mid or even upper class [or higher educated people - professionals, etc.] swearing up a storm but you'll definitely hear the grease monkey at the garage who flunked high school cursing everyone but his mother. 

What does swearing achieve outside of indicating this lower rung? Not much. Is it meant to intimidate? Maybe. I always find people that cuss like a sailor oftentimes run with their tails tucked faster than the person who merely keeps quiet because all it is, is an act. Like someone puffing out their chest. Really if you can't "walk the walk, and talk the talk" keep thy yap shut because you look more like a fool than anything. 

Funny story on the intimidation  - I worked at a mall plagued by drug dealers and druggies, the one time I tried swearing to act tough an actual patched member of the Hells Angels club that owned the building across the street from the mall [and whom was quite good in warning me who of his "clients" was going to be trouble] asked what the hell was wrong with me and sounding quite insulted told me that girls shouldn't swear. 


I don't swear unless extremely annoyed and even then I don't swear in English and I definitely don't go about flapping my arms {as if that'll get me airborne}, yelling and screaming, and acting like a general twit --- as many of my swear-happy neighbors do. 

Also like jackarandajam - if swearing takes up a lot of your vocabulary try working on it. People sound very intelligent swearing ... not.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 14, 2015)

Thanks for your post white crow! 

I just want to clarify the eptymology of the n- word, since I'm a sucker for the origins of words (see my earlier post lol). 

The n- word is the English variation of the Spanish "negro" and the French "negre" both meaning "black". It was a word simply used for anything black, and was applied to people of darker skin tones all around the world including the Polynesians an the native Indians (during the colonization of India).


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## Miskatonic (Dec 19, 2015)

Wasn't niggardly the original term used before the version of the "n word" we have now?


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## Garren Jacobsen (Dec 20, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> Wasn't niggardly the original term used before the version of the "n word" we have now?



I always thought that the two terms evolved separately.


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## MineOwnKing (Dec 20, 2015)

Interesting note,

In Brazil it's used as an affectionate term.

Eu te amo meu nega.  

or

Oi meu neginha. 

Sometimes my wife calls me negÃ£o, which means big n*^&$*, but is actually translated as something like, my lovely hunk. Even though I'm Caucasian. 

Mostly she just calls me gatÃ£o, which is like saying I'm a studly Tomcat. 

I just call her Amor.


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