# The Fantasy genre is intimidating!



## Jess (Aug 16, 2016)

I can't be the only one who has that horribly negative voice inside that keeps shouting, "What are you doing?? Why are you trying to write a fantasy novel?? Don't you know all the good ideas have already been taken? You are just going to rehash the same tired ideas and be hated for it. You should probably quit while you are ahead." 

Seriously, I have contemplated deleting my novel multiple times now. I've got 30,000 words towards something I have been working on since I was 17. It would be a shame to never see it amount to anything. It would also be a shame to realize that I'm just rewriting every fantasy cliche there is. I have obviously not read enough in this genre to know how original my writing is. The problem now is a barely have enough time for writing. So to add in time to read through multiple fantasy novels seems impossible. 

All in all I'm just working myself into a complete ball of anxiety ridden writer's block. If I can't write I suppose I would have time to read. I'm losing it. I'm letting my characters down.


----------



## Devor (Aug 16, 2016)

It takes a lot to get good at writing, and several writers talk about the importance of scrapping their first novel or two or three.  Even the successful first-book stories often leave out the fifteen times the story was reworked before it was ready.

You're 30,000 words into a story.  Keep going with them.  Scratch them.  For whatever reason you want.  The truth is, it's a very early step for you in the process of becoming a writer, and what matters isn't the word count or the quality of that first story but the writing process and skillset that you're developing.  Focus on that.  When you're a better writer you can decide whether the story you're working on has any merit and the best way to tap into it.  In the meantime, focus on that process.


----------



## Jess (Aug 16, 2016)

Thank you, that's a really good way of looking at it. This project is close to my heart which is where the anxiety is coming from. I know I just need to push forward and finish it. No matter what.


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 16, 2016)

Jess said:


> I can't be the only one who has that horribly negative voice inside that keeps shouting, "What are you doing?? Why are you trying to write a fantasy novel?? Don't you know all the good ideas have already been taken? You are just going to rehash the same tired ideas and be hated for it. You should probably quit while you are ahead."
> 
> Seriously, I have contemplated deleting my novel multiple times now. I've got 30,000 words towards something I have been working on since I was 17. It would be a shame to never see it amount to anything. It would also be a shame to realize that I'm just rewriting every fantasy cliche there is. I have obviously not read enough in this genre to know how original my writing is. The problem now is a barely have enough time for writing. So to add in time to read through multiple fantasy novels seems impossible.
> 
> All in all I'm just working myself into a complete ball of anxiety ridden writer's block. If I can't write I suppose I would have time to read. I'm losing it. I'm letting my characters down.



The first thing i want you to know is: it is COMPLETELY NORMAL to feel this way. 

Yes, it's worse for some writers than for others. But every writer feels these things. The fear that all your hard work will be for nothing. That you won't be good enough to write your story to its full potential. That you'll end up making all the mistakes you revile in books you read, that you'll let down the people you love, that you won't live up to the potential of your characters, that you'll never finish, that you're not brave enough or smart enough or stubborn enough to make it to the end--we have all been through it. For some, it's just little whispers. For others, it's paralyzing terror that makes you feel like everything you write is worthless, that YOU are worthless, and makes you want to curl up and die somewhere.

I know how horrible it can be, because these are just a few of the things that torment me, and i've fought them and i still fight them and it doesn't always get better, but i can keep going and that's enough. 

You say that you've considered giving up...that's not good. It speaks to how hard the stuff you're going through is. But you haven't given up _yet._ The fact that you're fighting the voices of fear and anxiety makes you the exact opposite of a failure. 

You say you're worried about repeating all the cliches, and that you feel all the good ideas are taken. This is true, to a degree. Practically everything has been done before. But that's okay. Cliches are cliches partly because people consistently like them; they wouldn't be cliches if no one read and loved the books they were in. In fact, stories with cliches in them aren't consistently failures like you would expect, but often are well read and well loved. Almost every reader will forgive any cliche if they tell a good story. 

Those that would hate you for writing something cliche are definitely a minority (if a vocal one) and definitely not worth listening to.

Ideas are nothing. They're everywhere. They're a dime a dozen. They grow on trees and rain from the sky. The difference between someone with a published book and an average person isn't that the writer had good ideas and the average person didn't. The average person might have had 20 times more ideas than the writer. The difference is that the person with the book plunked their butt in a chair, wrote, and didn't stop.

Those authors with their names on the spines of books that seem so different, so much higher...they're no different than you. They're not more talented than you. The reason they're published and most people aren't is that they plunked their butts in a chair and wrote and didn't stop, and most people didn't. 

You haven't given up yet. You're still trying. And you're reaching out for help. That's something. It may not feel like it, but i promise it is. 

Don't be intimidated by the fantasy genre--don't let yourself be intimidated by the story you have in you. Having a huge project is, yes, very scary. But that fear doesn't have authority over you. You have a story and no one has the right to say you aren't good enough to write it, that it's too hard for you, that you're not qualified. You don't need qualification to write your story. Fantasy is a scary genre to go into. But in reality, genres are just thin varnishes. Stories are made of humanity. You have everything you need to create a story inside you already--you have a heart, you have a mind, you have feelings, you have dreams, you have thoughts--and those are the things that are common to all humans and to all stories. 

You seem to be under the impression that the world doesn't need your story. Or even that the world would be better without your story. That's a lie. You're worried about being hated--you will have haters, yes, EVERY author does. There is no way to please everyone. But that's okay. Because your stories will also be loved. You're going to write someone's favorite book. There is someone out there that needs your story, who needs the story only you can tell. Stories are very, VERY powerful. You have thoughts and ideas and experiences that NO ONE ELSE is brave enough to write down. There are people out there whose lives could be changed by those and if you write your story you're telling them, "You're not alone." If the voices in your head tell you that your story isn't important, that writing it is pointless--they. are. LYING. Think of all the books you love and imagine what the world would be like if they had never been written. What if, when J.K. Rowling got the idea that would become Harry Potter, she had thought, "That's silly. No one would read that. Wizards are cliche. People would hate me." 

The world would be a very, very, VERY different place.

You might think, "Well, that was a good idea! My ideas aren't good!" First: Anxiety lies. I know this because i have it. It makes you believe things that aren't true, and it is so, so convincing. It clouds your head so you can't see the good in any of your ideas. Second: Really, ideas are all the same. It's all in what you do with them. Harry Potter wasn't original at all. Come on, it has a Dark Lord, a wise old wizard mentor with a long beard that dies at the end, a Chosen One-type hero with Special Snowflake Syndrome...It's not original.

And it really isn't that J.K. Rowling is a particularly good writer! Her prose isn't stellar! I've read much better.  

You might never be as popular as J.K. Rowling...you might sell only 1,000 copies, or 100 copies. But if you could bring light into the life of only one reader, would you still do it? If you could inspire only one person to write their own stories, to follow their dreams, or to keep living, would you? I definitely would. 


P. S. As for having time to read, there's time. 10, 15 minutes a day. 20 minutes a day is plenty. You don't need much. And you don't really need to read all the fantasy there is to write fantasy. In fact, your ideas will probably be more original if you read only other genres.


----------



## Peat (Aug 16, 2016)

Welcome to the forum.

I reckon there's two ways of looking at this.

One is your work is fine, that its not cliche-ridden, and this is just worry.

The other is your work is not fine, but you're going to become a better writer and improve it, so its all going to be fine and there's no need to worry anyway!  I know you've said time is at a premium right now but I'm guessing you have a fairly long time limit for getting this done. Or at least I hope you do. As Devor says, its a long road for just about everyone.

So, its all gravy right? 


Now, in the here and now. You sound like you need to take a step away from your work, get some perspective. Most writers need to do that from time to time, a lot of us find the negativity and worry building up after spending too long in a work. So take that step back. Maybe read some books on writing, do some writing exercises. Or read up on fantasy cliches and tropes - you can keep current with what's super common in the market without reading everything. Then... after a month or so, go back to it. Have a read. See how you feel. Maybe show it to some others you trust to know things. See where you are then. 

I do think you may need to worry less about being original though. Amateurs Borrow, Professionals Steal - there's a reason there's 425,000 hits on Google for that quote, and it applies to all creative processes. You can wear your influences very openly and still be loved by readers if you're a good writer.


----------



## Jess (Aug 16, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> The first thing i want you to know is: it is COMPLETELY NORMAL to feel this way.
> 
> Yes, it's worse for some writers than for others. But every writer feels these things. The fear that all your hard work will be for nothing. That you won't be good enough to write your story to its full potential. That you'll end up making all the mistakes you revile in books you read, that you'll let down the people you love, that you won't live up to the potential of your characters, that you'll never finish, that you're not brave enough or smart enough or stubborn enough to make it to the end--we have all been through it. For some, it's just little whispers. For others, it's paralyzing terror that makes you feel like everything you write is worthless, that YOU are worthless, and makes you want to curl up and die somewhere.
> 
> ...



I'm crying. Your response is incredibly beautiful, moving, and thoughtful. Thank you so much for taking the time to not only read my post but to put so much into your response. You're seriously my favorite person right now.


----------



## Penpilot (Aug 16, 2016)

I think there may be an official rule that states if you don't at one point or another think your writing stinks and should be burned to save humanity from it, then you can't call yourself a writer. 

Originality doesn't lie in the ideas. Originality lies in the execution. What I mean by that is what makes a story original is you, the person. Your life experiences, your views on the world, they're uniquely yours, and that's where the originality comes from. 

Let's take the tried and true tale of Romeo and Juliet. How many times has that story been retold? Look at Westside Story. Romeo and Juliet in New York with gangs instead of families. Look and the Romeo and Juliet with Leonardo DeCaprio. They set it in modern time between Mafia Empires, with guns, but kept the Shakespearean dialogue.

Every idea has been used many times over. If you put up an idea for people to critique, it's almost 100% assured someone will say, "Oh yeah, that's like X." So if you intend to find that original idea, good luck. It'll be a long time coming, and you'll never write anything EVER.

In addition, originality IMHO is overrated. There's nothing wrong with a well told story that's not all that original. People like the familiar. They're drawn to similar things. Look at James Cameron's Avatar. The story isn't all that original, but it was well told, and millions flocked to watch it.

For me, I worry about writing a good story, original or not, and let everything else fall where it may. Because as long as I'm glad I get to find out what happened, then it was worth writing.


----------



## Demesnedenoir (Aug 16, 2016)

Penpilot said:


> In addition, originality IMHO is overrated. There's nothing wrong with a well told story that's not all that original. People like the familiar. They're drawn to similar things. Look at James Cameron's Avatar. The story isn't all that original, but it was well told, and millions flocked to watch it.
> 
> For me, I worry about writing a good story, original or not, and let everything else fall where it may. Because as long as I'm glad I get to find out what happened, then it was worth writing.



Isn't all that original is generous for Avatar, it was forumlaic to an extreme and carried by the visuals rather than story. The whole story makes me groan and pull my hair out, and that's before all the PC BS. But it also points out another fact: There are large numbers of people who don't realize that these stories are old hat. King has made a living pretty much rehashing old stories in semi-new ways.


----------



## FatCat (Aug 16, 2016)

Fantasy is difficult because so many people aspire to success in the genre, and like you've said ideas tend to repeat. Maybe it's okay to delete what you've wrote. It's not the worst thing to know revision. 

Are you writing fantasy because the tropes and understanding allow you to tell a story? New age fantasy will not be inns and knights and wizards, just wait. 

In a forum in which everything is allowed, where the author's mind controls the narrative without the need for realism, this is fantasy. 

Disregard the keystones read, the expected world, and realize the genre is as marketed, fantasy. What story do you want to tell?


----------



## ThinkerX (Aug 16, 2016)

'The good ideas are all already taken.'

The OP should take a peek at the tales in the various 'Top Scribe' Challenges - or maybe consider entering the current one.  

'Top Scribe' revolves around incorporating four prompts into a short story - but you'd be hard pressed to identify those prompts from the stories alone. 

Tell ten different writers to include the same set of prompts within their works, you DO NOT end up with ten different versions of the same story, but ten different stories.  

That said, I have been batting notions around for a near to mid future Lovecraftian series for a couple years now.  Read a fair pile (upper double digit range) of stories written by Lovecraft's literary descendants as part of this.  Thus far, I have found a grand total of three stories that come close to what I envision.  And not really all that close, either, because those tales and my notions revolve around different things.


----------



## Caged Maiden (Aug 17, 2016)

I began writing in 2001 and I didn't have a "golden idea" but rather a need to fill hours of boredom at work with something to make me look busy. I wrote. A lot. I wrote ten novels over the next ten years, and honestly, looking at them now, the first three should never EVER be read by anyone. But they weren't a waste of my time. They taught me to write and to care about writing, and I just honestly never worried about whether they were "readable" because no one was reading them but me. The thing is, it's YOUR story, and it doesn't matter if you're writing the most overdone cliche or whether you have a completely original idea that no one's ever written before. 

Just write and work as hard as you can. That's all you can do. Confidence is hard-won. It doesn't come easy. Writing is honestly the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. 

Anxiety and self-criticism are natural responses. After all, stories are meant to be shared. I didn't worry because I wasn't writing to share. I wrote to entertain myself. I'd encourage you to do the same. Write for YOU. And the worst thing that can happen at the end of that, is that you don't love the story you wrote, and you begin something new. 

There is no harm in writing even a truly awful story. If you don't share it, no one will ever know. But what if you finish this story, and you learn how to put those writing tools to good use? What if the story is entertaining, exciting, and fresh? That, honestly, comes more from the voice and style of a piece, and less from the concept that began the inspiration.

There are many great threads here that can help advise you HOW to write, but really, that's a tricky place to begin. This article pretty much sums up why. Writing With Confidence

The thing is, it takes time to build confidence, and the best way to do that is to not care. If you care too deeply about the story you're writing, it hurts when you feel like you got something wrong. That's the fear voice in your head that says, "Oh, that's not good. You have to do better or people won't like it." I mean...the first time I submitted a story to an agent, the first thing I did was cut all the sex and violence out because I was...wait for it...afraid I might offend someone. I was afraid of offending ANYONE. I was so worried that even a single person disliking my work would mean it was crap. Looking back, I realize how silly that was. But at the time, I just didn't know. So I wrote a very bland edit, and sent that off, and it was rejected...um, because it was boring and horrible.

We've all come here to learn more, to engage with other writers, to find support. You're in good company. I think most of us have felt as you do. 

Don't listen to the demons in your head. They want you to fail. Don't engage in what I call "fear-writing" where you make choices in your work just because you worry someone will hate it if you use your own voice, use a cliche, make the love story sappy, write a gay character, don't have all the answers, mix genres, have a bittersweet ending, etc. etc.. Don't listen to that voice in your head that's telling you you can't do it. Know that you CAN do it. IN fact, this article may help you get past those things you aren't good at and focus on the things you think you're really good at: One Letter Every Writer Should Write

And if it's too hard to work on the project that's causing the anxiety, please try writing something you don't care so deeply about. Enter one of our challenges, start a journal and write things you see every day that maybe aren't amazing to others, but inspire you to think and feel. Write anything you can. Call it practice or whatever you need to, to allow yourself free rein. Even the nest writers in the world have these feelings. 

I recently checked out an audiobook from the library. Bud by Bird, by Ann Lamott. I highly recommend that. Try to get the audio book. It is 3 hours long, and i think it's excellent. She goes over all this stuff, and puts in a way that makes it really accessible to expert or beginner alike. She'll make sure you don't feel alone in this self doubt, for sure! Bird by Bird: Some Instructions on Writing and Life: Anne Lamott: 9780385480017: Amazon.com: Books

Best wishes. Hang in there. You must either choose to listen to the voices, or tell them to f*** off, and keep writing! Here's two songs I play before I sit down to write a scene that has me terrified.

Eli Young Band; Even if it Breaks Your Heart [ON-SCREEN LYRICS] - YouTube

Brave - Sara Bareilles (Lyrics) - YouTube


----------



## Miskatonic (Aug 17, 2016)

The quality of the storytelling is paramount. You can take old ideas and write great stories if your writing is up to snuff.


----------



## Penpilot (Aug 17, 2016)

ThinkerX said:


> Tell ten different writers to include the same set of prompts within their works, you DO NOT end up with ten different versions of the same story, but ten different stories.



To springboard off this a bit. A few years ago just a little before Game of Thrones came on TV, I had this idea for a story and the world. All the known lands were surrounded by a wall and there were tales about what lay beyond the wall, beings known as the Others. Sound familiar?

I'd never read Game of Thrones before that. A friend had been urging me to do so for ages, but I never did. When the TV show became I hit. I decided to check it out, and discovered what GRRM did around ten years before. 

This was my reaction. 








After that I had two choices, give up or go on. I went on. My story was different than what GRRM did and was doing. It just had similar elements. I finished the story and I'm glad I did. I'm still editing it, but if I get it right, I think it'll be a great story, original or not.


----------



## Peat (Aug 17, 2016)

Miskatonic said:


> The quality of the storytelling is paramount. You can take old ideas and write great stories if your writing is up to snuff.



This cannot be repeated enough. I feel like 90pc of the discussion I see on fantasy writing sites are about ideas and 10pc about writing. Those proportions are the wrong way around for without effective writing, no one will ever care about our ideas in the first place.


----------



## Devor (Aug 17, 2016)

Yeah . . . . I personally feel that the discussion about ideas and execution is completely misleading.  You've got ideas on every page of a book.  In fact every sentence expresses an idea. I think the notion that creativity pales behind execution misses the fact that *creativity is part of your execution.*  It's one of the skills you should be developing as a writer.

I mean, sure, we tend to focus on the story concept, and not the little micro-uses of creativity that you need to employ as you write.  That is, in some ways it's worse - we talk about "ideas" too much, but we don't even learn much about ideation or how to employ good ideas consistently throughout your story.

Instead, we repeat that ideas are cheap, and that they don't matter, because execution - execution _something_ or other, which is just another way of hiding from the tougher discussions.

Last week I picked up a book on creativity - _Idea Stormers_ by Bryan Mattimore - and one thing that was immediately apparent while reading through it:  The genre advice on creativity is extraordinarily lacking.  We write fantasy.  We could literally write about anything.  And we don't even discuss how we can explore those possibilities, let alone ways to be creative later in the work, long after we decide on the concepts.


----------



## FifthView (Aug 17, 2016)

When I think about executing my darlings....well, it could go either way.


----------



## Peat (Aug 17, 2016)

Devor said:


> Yeah . . . . I personally feel that the discussion about ideas and execution is completely misleading.  You've got ideas on every page of a book.  In fact every sentence expresses an idea. I think the notion that creativity pales behind execution misses the fact that *creativity is part of your execution.*  It's one of the skills you should be developing as a writer.
> 
> I mean, sure, we tend to focus on the story concept, and not the little micro-uses of creativity that you need to employ as you write.  That is, in some ways it's worse - we talk about "ideas" too much, but we don't even learn much about ideation or how to employ good ideas consistently throughout your story.
> 
> ...



When you talk about ideation, what do you mean?


----------



## Devor (Aug 17, 2016)

Peat said:


> When you talk about ideation, what do you mean?



So, "ideation" is a word they use in business and academic circles for the creation of new ideas.  They use it because "brainstorming" has a specific old meaning in the literature, where a group of people just shout out whatever they can think of as they go.  Brainstorming really isn't effective.

I'm not very far into _Idea Stormers_, but the core concepts so far are all very familiar to me.  It's all about finding and changing the triggers you're using to inspire the ideas you're getting (something I've been talking about for a long while now).  The book is written for groups in business, so I'm not going to get into it the specifics.

But taking a few of the principles and applying them to writing fantasy . . . .

Just for instance - seriously - make a list of the things you think of when somebody says . . . . ohh, I don't know, "Orc."

 - Evil / Aggressive
 - Big
 - Teethy
 - Green
 - Slave Warriors
 - Infighting
 - Tough

^ These are some of the things you might think of when you're writing about orcs.  What, to me, is the central or defining part?  I'm going to pick _Slave Warriors_.  I want a group of slave warriors who feel unique.  I'm going to develop them by changing the triggers.

 - Evil / Aggressive = Cautious, Strategic
 - Big = Non-Humanoid
 - Teethy = Handsy
 - Green = Camouflaged
 - Infighting = Submissive/Loyal
 - Tough = Determined

Using these new notions as my prompts, I can start to think of a very different kind of _slave warriors_.  For instance, trying to reconcile _loyalty_ and _slavery_, I might develop a system where the creatures have an "Alpha" that has led them into slavery.  Thinking about "non-humanoid" and "handsy," I might develop them as insects, or as 4-armed centaurs, or as gorillas who carry extra weapons in their feet and tails.  Thinking about camouflaged and strategic, perhaps they have a way of surrounding you before you realize they're even there.

Putting it all together gives me a type of wolf-chimp-hybrid that fights in packs, attacks from the treetops, shows fierce loyalty to an alpha that volunteered them as slaves, and terrorizes a countryside without ever presenting a single army to destroy.

By changing the triggers, I've just taken a massive leap in developing the Slave Warriors for a story.

The skill, of course, is in identifying the right triggers, finding the best way to change them, and then drawing more from them.  And, y'know, doing it quickly in your head as you write so you don't feel like an obsessive planning person.


----------



## FifthView (Aug 17, 2016)

Perhaps there ought to be a new thread devoted to this subject of ideation.

I have some issues with a current story in development that would probably benefit from it.  For weeks I've found myself in that brainstorm maelstrom, in which many ideas come but no matter how intriguing, interesting, or full of potential, they quickly get washed out in the chaos.  There's always a feeling of yes, but.  Nothing gels.

Well mostly the issue is the magic system(s), the cultures involved.  But other areas are suffering from the same sort of excess of potential.


----------



## Devor (Aug 17, 2016)

If anyone is interested I'll start a thread on it later this evening.


----------



## Peat (Aug 17, 2016)

Do eet. Hell, it would make great article fodder too.


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 17, 2016)

I'd like to say that compared to the amount of work you will end up putting into your writing, 30,000 words isn't that much. I say this to be encouraging, not discouraging. Don't be afraid of writing stuff that's not great, don't be afraid of writing stuff that's utterly terrible. People will only ever read your very best work in published form. Even if you hate every word you write and your inner editor is chomping at the bit to strip it like a pirhana, write it anyway and don't worry about it. Your words won't be branded on your forehead for the world to see.

No one starts out a good writer. Everyone's first several hundred thousand words are probably terrible. Right now, you have no business worrying about whether your writing is any good or not. Just get the words out. The only real way to become a better writer is to write, and write a lot, and write fearlessly. If I could give one piece of advice about writing, it would be to write a lot, write everything, write all the time, and never stop. Every word you write makes you a better writer. Nothing is wasted. If you're writing, you aren't wasting time. 

Some people wait until they think of something good to write before they write anything down. But people who are serious don't wait. They just sit down and write. Successful writers aren't successful because they're lucky enough to write only good stuff, they're successful because they write no matter if it's bad or good. I've sat at the computer writing random sentences, or writing "I don't have anything to write", and a lot of what I write is useless, but a lot of it is good and could become something. 90% of what you write will end up being unusable anyway, and you have to write the 90% to get to the good 10%. You can't write good stuff without writing a whole lot of bad stuff. 

Anything you write right now, you will have forever to rewrite and polish and revise. Getting it right the first time doesn't really work. I've tried it but you can't get it even close to what it's supposed to become on the first try, no matter how hard you try. You have to let the first draft be terrible. You can and will fix the terribleness of the first draft. I promise it won't be so terrible it's unfixable, you CAN fix it later. 

I wrote my first book when I was 12. You can imagine how awful it was. I suppose it was pretty good for a 12 year old, but it was still terrible. There were too many characters, the plot was a twisted mess, and I used just about every fantasy cliche. That project, though I wouldn't call it the same, set the foundation what I'm working on now, which is much better and no longer infested with cliches I hate. (In fact, it's rather weird and unique and I'm worried it will be hard to publish because of that. Earlier I tried to avoid cliches too much; I was probably hurting myself.) The point is, even something awful can eventually turn into something good. (Not that I've even gotten in there yet...but it definitely is better than what 12-year-old me was writing!) I learned a TON writing that first book. Nothing will teach you about writing a book better than doing it. 

Basically, instead of learning as much as you can about writing, or waiting until all your ideas or perfect, or waiting until you feel ready or you think you're a good enough writer, you'll learn more by just jumping in and doing it. You'll make a whole slough of mistakes but if you push hard enough you'll get to THE END. And then, you will have the wonderful gift of hindsight. You'll be able to see what you did right and what you did wrong. The second time around you'll know what you're doing a little more than you did last time.


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 17, 2016)

But...if you're really stressed about it, it's okay to take a break. Shoving through anxiety doesn't help. Anxiety puts your brain in fight-or-flight mode, where its main objective is to get away from the threat (the thing that's stressing you out.) Survival mode overrides everything else in your brain, including creativity. The creative and productive centers of your brain are basically shut down. So, trying to keep working through it won't get you anywhere. It will just draw the walls tighter and tighter around you until you feel trapped. I've had it happen and it's terrifying. Sometimes the best thing is to walk away and write something else. I did this recently with my WIP. It'll probably be a few months before I come back. Meanwhile I've joined lots of challenges in the Challenges forum...which...were....also stressful and panic-inducing, but...they were something different.


----------



## Miskatonic (Aug 18, 2016)

Peat said:


> This cannot be repeated enough. I feel like 90pc of the discussion I see on fantasy writing sites are about ideas and 10pc about writing. Those proportions are the wrong way around for without effective writing, no one will ever care about our ideas in the first place.



This is why it is a huge pet peeve of mine to see endless threads asking "Is this a good idea?". It's impossible to say. Two writers could take the same idea and one could succeed and one could fail miserably at turning it into a story. Why it failed or succeeded is only discovered AFTER the story has been written. Or at least when there is some actual writing to critique. 

If you have a great, original idea but have not developed your skillset as a writer then it really doesn't matter. Get good at writing and you can do a lot with ideas ranging from mundane to completely bizarre. 

The reason I love reading HP Lovecraft is mainly due to _how_ he writes, not necessarily because the ideas being used in all his stories are absolutely brilliant. 

I think he is a great example to use because there have been tons of Cthulhu mythos spin-off stories that have been complete garbage yet used the exact same ideas. The ideas weren't the issue, it was the writer's lack of ability to execute them in a compelling manner.


----------



## FifthView (Aug 18, 2016)

Miskatonic said:


> This is why it is a huge pet peeve of mine to see endless threads asking "Is this a good idea?". It's impossible to say. Two writers could take the same idea and one could succeed and one could fail miserably at turning it into a story. Why it failed or succeeded is only discovered AFTER the story has been written. Or at least when there is some actual writing to critique.



And there's a slight paradox here, or at least a conundrum.

"Execution" is often mentioned in passing, and it's the holy grail, whereas ideas and general concepts can inspire long threads.  This is probably because specific execution is dependent on various factors relating to a specific story and specific author voice/goals.   An idea can take a multitude of forms depending on execution, so each idea can be addressed pre-writing, on Mythic Scribes, from a multitude of perspectives.  But execution?  We need to see a particular execution already complete before we can say whether it works "in this case."

I sometimes regret that we don't often address the bare basics of writing engaging prose, of structuring the flow of scenes and chapters.  We do sometimes discuss things in abstract like prologues or narrative strategies (1st person, 3rd omniscient or limited) or showing and telling or dialogue tags, but the ultimate answer is usually yes, no, maybe; i.e., "It depends."  In chapter one, should I choose this POV character or that POV character?  Should I begin with the main villain POV in chapter one or save that for chapter two and begin with my hero?  Or should I begin with a secondary character who happens to run into one of those other two characters?  Yes, no, maybe; it depends.  You can do any of these.

Execution is a little more difficult to address than various ideas.

Devor's mention of the importance of ideas and ideation seems peculiarly pertinent for this thread, from my perspective, because the absolute openness of the fantasy genre presents its own kind of problems.  When absolutely _anything_ can be imagined, this presents the problem of choosing from that multitude of possibilities while simultaneously introducing the specter of intentional or unintentional copying because, to some degree (more or less?) there's a subliminal expectation of newness, or at least freshness, of ideas for every new book or short story.  It's speculative fiction, so the act of speculation can steal some of the spotlight.


----------



## Peat (Aug 18, 2016)

While I agree that one needs to see the work before it can be said whether it works or not, there's execution strategies we can talk about and I think in terms of the greater internet community, don't so much. Yes, the answer is usually "It depends", but we can at least talk about what it depends on. What tool for what moment, what tools to mix; or at the very least, making sure everyone knows which tools exist.

And the answer to people's ideas queries tends to be "It depends" too.

Still, it is possible to overdo this argument, not least because people's enthusiasm for the whole thing rests on their ideas.


----------



## FifthView (Aug 18, 2016)

If an idea depends on execution, what does execution depend upon?  Ideas?   But execution is a broad category.

It isn't that I'd dismiss talking more about execution.  I think it'd be great if we focused more on execution.  My point was that maybe discussing execution is a little more difficult than discussing various types of standard or non-standard elves or the 100,000 potential magic systems.


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 18, 2016)

FifthView said:


> If an idea depends on execution, what does execution depend upon?  Ideas?   But execution is a broad category.
> 
> It isn't that I'd dismiss talking more about execution.  I think it'd be great if we focused more on execution.  My point was that maybe discussing execution is a little more difficult than discussing various types of standard or non-standard elves or the 100,000 potential magic systems.



Execution is very, very, very broad. It encompasses plotting, characters, writing style, and everything those encompass. In short, it encompasses everything that ISN'T the main idea(s). That's why it's so important.


----------



## FifthView (Aug 18, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Execution is very, very, very broad. It encompasses plotting, characters, writing style, and everything those encompass. In short, it encompasses everything that ISN'T the main idea(s). That's why it's so important.



Of course execution is important.  But so are ideas—and not just the main idea(s) but also a great many tiny ideas that populate the individual paragraphs and sentences.  

I'm reminded of something Penpilot said in that thread on flow.   The execution can sometimes flow easily when we have a clear idea about where we are in the story, where we want to go, and how we want to go there.  But having only a blank page as a beginning, a story can go just about anywhere.  I mean, any given paragraph or sentence can go in 10[SUP]9999[/SUP] directions.  We have to know the ideas involved, even the tiny ideas.  What is the architecture in this city? The clothing? The million odd details of the culture—and which of those ideas are important for establishing not only the scene but also the tone of this particular part of the tale, and of the tale as a whole? 

I don't know, but I think (?) this was something Devor was signaling with this:



Devor said:


> Yeah . . . . I personally feel that the discussion about ideas and execution is completely misleading.  You've got ideas on every page of a book.  In fact every sentence expresses an idea. I think the notion that creativity pales behind execution misses the fact that *creativity is part of your execution.*  It's one of the skills you should be developing as a writer.
> 
> I mean, sure, we tend to focus on the story concept, and not the little micro-uses of creativity that you need to employ as you write.  That is, in some ways it's worse - we talk about "ideas" too much, but we don't even learn much about ideation or how to employ good ideas consistently throughout your story.



And this:



Devor said:


> The skill, of course, is in identifying the right triggers, finding the best way to change them, and then drawing more from them.  And, y'know, doing it quickly in your head as you write so you don't feel like an obsessive planning person.



I think developing better habits of ideation can help in the planning stage, the initial conception of the main ideas for a story.  But here, "In fact every sentence expresses an idea" and "doing it quickly in your head" caused me to pause.  I think this is very true.  So you begin with a blank page, you've decided your hero will be the POV character in the first chapter, and you know the hero needs to go from point A to point B in the chapter; but, what's in the first paragraph?  The second and third paragraph?  How do you flesh out the tale, the world and the tone?


----------



## Peat (Aug 18, 2016)

FifthView said:


> If an idea depends on execution, what does execution depend upon?  Ideas?   But execution is a broad category.
> 
> It isn't that I'd dismiss talking more about execution.  I think it'd be great if we focused more on execution.  My point was that maybe discussing execution is a little more difficult than discussing various types of standard or non-standard elves or the 100,000 potential magic systems.



A big sharp axe 

You're right that it is more difficult. But I think it is more important.

And, to tie this back to the thread if Jess is still with us, its not that we don't want to hear about your ideas - share them all! But if you want to do justice to them, don't neglect asking and reading about the craft of writing itself.

Also, if you are worried about your ideas being cliche, why not tell us about them?


----------



## FifthView (Aug 18, 2016)

Peat said:


> A big sharp axe




Yes.  Executing one's darlings–with an axe or an ergonomic keyboard?   Thanks, fantasy genre.


----------



## Jess (Aug 18, 2016)

Peat said:


> A big sharp axe
> 
> You're right that it is more difficult. But I think it is more important.
> 
> ...



Lol, Yes I am still here. Just taking in all the great advice. 

I am more than willing to learn more about the craft of writing. I have done tons of research on sci-fi and fantasy writing in particular. My greatest concern is that someone will read through my book and think that my characters relate too much to something else they have read. The anxiety actually helps me to really dive in deep and take a look at how my characters differ from the traditional (or the cliches). The overall synopsis of my story seems like so many other novels out there. A magical vessel is needed to save 3 kingdoms from falling into darkness. The fact that a "neverending" winter is taking over makes me worry that people are going to think I am copying George R. R. Martin. Although my winter is caused by magic. And I started this story when I was 17. (Although back then it was a short story that was meant to be turned into a children's story and now has become worthy of up to 3 books worth of material if I really set my mind to it)


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 18, 2016)

Jess said:


> Lol, Yes I am still here. Just taking in all the great advice.
> 
> I am more than willing to learn more about the craft of writing. I have done tons of research on sci-fi and fantasy writing in particular. My greatest concern is that someone will read through my book and think that my characters relate too much to something else they have read. The anxiety actually helps me to really dive in deep and take a look at how my characters differ from the traditional (or the cliches). The overall synopsis of my story seems like so many other novels out there. A magical vessel is needed to save 3 kingdoms from falling into darkness. The fact that a "neverending" winter is taking over makes me worry that people are going to think I am copying George R. R. Martin. Although my winter is caused by magic. And I started this story when I was 17. (Although back then it was a short story that was meant to be turned into a children's story and now has become worthy of up to 3 books worth of material if I really set my mind to it)



I can think of multiple books with the neverending winter idea, not just GRRM's. People have called those books unoriginal. And they've called GRRM's book unoriginal as well, in fact...There's no way to avoid being called unoriginal. Most fantasy books are actually extremely similar to one another and people still like them.


----------



## Jess (Aug 18, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I can think of multiple books with the neverending winter idea, not just GRRM's. People have called those books unoriginal. And they've called GRRM's book unoriginal as well, in fact...There's no way to avoid being called unoriginal. Most fantasy books are actually extremely similar to one another and people still like them.



That's a good point. People will either like it or not like it. I really have no control over that. I just really hope someone likes it. I want to give someone that fantastical world to escape to through my writing. My wish is that someone can feel the magic in my words and find some kind of joy in my story.


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 18, 2016)

Jess said:


> That's a good point. People will either like it or not like it. I really have no control over that. I just really hope someone likes it. I want to give someone that fantastical world to escape to through my writing. My wish is that someone can feel the magic in my words and find some kind of joy in my story.



I relate to this SO MUCH. 

Whenever I read a great book I'm like "I have to do this for someone!" I want my readers to feel the same happiness I feel when I read a great book. I want them to laugh at my dialogue, cry at the sad parts, feel sadness and anger and joy and peace. I want to know how they picture my characters...I want a fandom, I want fanfics and fanart...I want to know that I've made someone happy in the way that books make me happy. It's what I live for.


----------



## Jess (Jul 7, 2017)

I needed to reread this today. Again thank you so much for this advice.


----------



## Jess (Jul 7, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I relate to this SO MUCH.
> 
> Whenever I read a great book I'm like "I have to do this for someone!" I want my readers to feel the same happiness I feel when I read a great book. I want them to laugh at my dialogue, cry at the sad parts, feel sadness and anger and joy and peace. I want to know how they picture my characters...I want a fandom, I want fanfics and fanart...I want to know that I've made someone happy in the way that books make me happy. It's what I live for.



I needed to reread your awesome advice. I went through some major writer's block and just picked up on writing my novel. It's your words that reminded me I can do this. Thank you so much.


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie (Jul 7, 2017)

Jess said:


> I needed to reread your awesome advice. I went through some major writer's block and just picked up on writing my novel. It's your words that reminded me I can do this. Thank you so much.



Staaaaahhhp you're gonna make me cry  

Anyway, I'm really glad I was able to help


----------



## TheCrystallineEntity (Jul 7, 2017)

> Most fantasy books are actually extremely similar to one another and people still like them.



Unless you do a complete 180  from the 'get-go' like me and go into Genre Busting.


----------



## Simpson17866 (Jul 8, 2017)

Good for you 

If you're still worried about not having enough original ideas, the trick that's worked best for me has been to stop trying to come up with a good idea and start trying to come up with the opposite of a bad idea: I find an idea that is popular - either in fiction or in the real world - and I write scenarios that show why the idea does not work the way everybody thinks it does.

If you're still worried about not being as good as other writers: You're not supposed to be  There is not a person on the planet who only has one favorite story, and even a list of just 3 favorites would mean that 67% are lower on the person's list than the absolute favorite. Being somebody's 5th favorite writer instead of their 1st favorite is a sign of *success*, not a sign of failure.


----------



## Ruru (Jul 8, 2017)

Jess, thank you for starting this thread. I am in exactly the same position: I have read so many books that effect me strongly, and just wish that I could take the world in my head and turn it into something that would inspire someone else. I am trying, but its a long, arduous process, and the fear of getting it wrong causes a writers block over and over again. But each time I end up writing again because, at the end of the day, I like writing my story, for me if not for everyone else. 

This forum has helped a lot. It's made me think about new ways forward, and made me aware that most of us are all in the same boat together. It has also encouraged me to practice, to just write anything, to exercise those creative muscles and my internal voice. 

I hope that what everyone has said here has helped you. It's certainly inspired me! Thanks guys!


----------



## Annoyingkid (Jul 9, 2017)

Right now, just eight lines of script = an entire page. It feels like I'm wading through tar. So much work. :furious:


----------



## Jess (May 15, 2022)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> The first thing i want you to know is: it is COMPLETELY NORMAL to feel this way.
> 
> Yes, it's worse for some writers than for others. But every writer feels these things. The fear that all your hard work will be for nothing. That you won't be good enough to write your story to its full potential. That you'll end up making all the mistakes you revile in books you read, that you'll let down the people you love, that you won't live up to the potential of your characters, that you'll never finish, that you're not brave enough or smart enough or stubborn enough to make it to the end--we have all been through it. For some, it's just little whispers. For others, it's paralyzing terror that makes you feel like everything you write is worthless, that YOU are worthless, and makes you want to curl up and die somewhere.
> 
> ...


I have this advice printed out. I gave up on my dream for a minute but I'm back at it and nothing is going to stop me now.


----------



## pmmg (May 15, 2022)

Welcome back Jess, where have you been?


----------



## Jess (May 15, 2022)

Life and doubt got in the way of following my dreams. I lost myself for a few years and finally woke back up one day. The fire inside has been reignited and is burning brighter than ever before.


----------



## A. E. Lowan (May 15, 2022)

Jess said:


> Life and doubt got in the way of following my dreams. I lost myself for a few years and finally woke back up one day. The fire inside has been reignited and is burning brighter than ever before.


Good for you! Writing is hard, and fantasy can be harder, and if it were easy, everyone would do it. But, and I say this a lot, chicks dig scars and glory is forever. Now, get back to work.


----------



## Alexandrea (May 17, 2022)

As with many things involving our minds, writing exists on a spectrum.  While the general concept of your novel may have been done before, it has not been written from your perspective.  That is what will make it different.  You can, of course, think of different ways to make your story unexpected, (examples would be types of worlds not built before or unexpected plot twists) but ultimately it is important that your well of creativity is influenced equally by the perception of your audience, and your heart.  With these in balance, you'll have a great story regardless if someone has written the same one before.

You can do this.


----------



## Jess (May 26, 2022)

A. E. Lowan said:


> Good for you! Writing is hard, and fantasy can be harder, and if it were easy, everyone would do it. But, and I say this a lot, chicks dig scars and glory is forever. Now, get back to work.


Love this! Thank you!


----------



## Jess (May 26, 2022)

Alexandrea said:


> As with many things involving our minds, writing exists on a spectrum.  While the general concept of your novel may have been done before, it has not been written from your perspective.  That is what will make it different.  You can, of course, think of different ways to make your story unexpected, (examples would be types of worlds not built before or unexpected plot twists) but ultimately it is important that your well of creativity is influenced equally by the perception of your audience, and your heart.  With these in balance, you'll have a great story regardless if someone has written the same one before.
> 
> You can do this.


Thank you so much. The support I'm receiving is keeping the fire lit. I will do this! <3


----------



## Marshmallow1990 (Jul 2, 2022)

As intimidating as it at first you just need a little practice to get into the swing of things. However I do recommend looking into as many resources as you can early on. Also reading a few books in genre would help immensely.


----------



## LunarRat (Aug 18, 2022)

At first when I started reading this, I noticed it was from 2016 and it hit me like a truck. But seeing now that you're back despite struggling for a bit is absolutely amazing . Whatever you write, at the end of the day, is for YOU. We are at the point in history where every idea has been hashed and rehashed. What makes works original is because they're originally made. We write because we love to and it makes us feel good, anything else is just a plus.


----------



## Magenta-Face of Fairyland (Sep 17, 2022)

Jess said:


> I can't be the only one who has that horribly negative voice inside that keeps shouting, "What are you doing?? Why are you trying to write a fantasy novel?? Don't you know all the good ideas have already been taken? You are just going to rehash the same tired ideas and be hated for it. You should probably quit while you are ahead."
> 
> Seriously, I have contemplated deleting my novel multiple times now. I've got 30,000 words towards something I have been working on since I was 17. It would be a shame to never see it amount to anything. It would also be a shame to realize that I'm just rewriting every fantasy cliche there is. I have obviously not read enough in this genre to know how original my writing is. The problem now is a barely have enough time for writing. So to add in time to read through multiple fantasy novels seems impossible.
> 
> All in all I'm just working myself into a complete ball of anxiety ridden writer's block. If I can't write I suppose I would have time to read. I'm losing it. I'm letting my characters down.


It's true that modern speculative-fiction is perhaps the single most saturated genre in all of publishing; but IMO, modern SF, specially modern fantasy, is sorely lacking; not as a consequence of all the _"good ideas being taken"_ as you have suggest; but rather because the same ideas, both the superficial elements of Tolkien's races and the Conan-esque setting, alongside the deeper elements of tired tropes, simplistic prose, shallow themes and _all around cliche feel, _are being rehashed over and over. So as a suggestion, you can try reading (or if you lack the time, listening to the audio book), and learning from older works of GF and weird fiction, I'd suggest Verne, Wells, Lovecraft, Dunsany, Eddison and Bulwer-Lytton; all of whom have distinctively better prose, style and imagination than most modern fantasy writers. doing so, IMO, well elevate your writing over the competition.


----------

