# Why Don't You Showcase?



## Ankari (May 23, 2012)

My first destination whenever I log onto Mythic Scribes is the Showcase Forum.  I don't see a lot of people commenting in that forum.  So the question has to be asked: Why don't you visit the Showcase Forum?


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## Philip Overby (May 23, 2012)

I visit it sometimes, but I guess each person has certain things that interest them about Mythic Scribes.  I probably check out the Writing Questions and Challenges the most.  Those are sort of my things that I like.  Others almost always frequent the Showcase and World-Building.  I think everyone has their favorites.  

Also, I think the Showcase requires a bit of give and take.  Those who comment on posts tend to get more comments on their own stuff.  For beefing up Showcase interaction, I would suggest a "critique for critique" method.  If you offer a short critique of one person's piece, then they give you the same.  I think that method works the best for me anyway.


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## Caged Maiden (May 23, 2012)

It's hard to tell what sort of feedback people are looking for, and though I do occasionally comment, I've found critique partners are much more truthful.  Also, it's hard to get the feel for someone's work from a chapter or excerpt.  I'd prefer to read a few chapters.


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## Sheilawisz (May 23, 2012)

I have shared a complete little story inside the Showcase- Please search for: The Timelines of Nornium: The Kitty, the Gypsy and the Attic! XD!!


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## ArielFingolfin (May 23, 2012)

I have such issues reading chapters on my computer. I really wish I could because I love reading works in progress and tossing my in two cents if I feel it will help or encourage, but my mind won't focus most of the time. I agree with Phil, if you want comments on your stuff you should comment on others', so I've stopped posting in there for a while (that and because I really just needed to get some feedback on the first couple chapters before I got some momentum). So I haven't even poked my head in there in a while. If someone asks me specifically for feedback I probably would, but I'm not going to browse through stuff that looks cool to read, but I just can't nail myself down to do it.


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## Steerpike (May 23, 2012)

I'm not opposed to using the showcase more, but in practice I've found it most helpful to find a handful of good critique partners to work with. Critiques on web forums tend to go in a few directions: 1) a general statement that something is great (not helpful); 2) a line-by-line rewrite, which is insulting and not helpful; and 3) someone telling you how THEY would have written it (also insulting, and also not helpful). 

By the time I give something over for critique, I generally have the basics of the story worked out, so suggestions along the lines of "why don't you change your plot X" are unwanted and unneeded. Likewise, I have usually thought about my word choice by then, so I'm not interested in how someone else would write the same story. The best critiques take a high-level view, they answer questions about what worked and what didn't work and why - was the pacing good, were you engaged, what about the characters - were they believable and consistent (and if not consistent why there a convincing reason why not). In any event, I could go on with other examples as to what is helpful but you get the idea. I think I pretty much stopped posting work for critique on web sites after about the fifth time I had someone try to rewrite my story line for line. 

But I'll try to use it more and see how it goes. Maybe I'm bringing in prejudices from other sites. I'll try to post something


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## Aidan of the tavern (May 23, 2012)

I don't post my work in the showcase because I never have anything ready for posting.  I don't really drift into the showcase that much partly because I don't consider my critique to be all that reliable, but if needed I would be happy to.


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## Ankari (May 23, 2012)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> I don't post my work in the showcase because I never have anything ready for posting.  I don't really drift into the showcase that much partly because I don't consider my critique to be all that reliable, but if needed I would be happy to.



I think that writers need as broad a feedback as possible to see if their writing is on the right track.  Some people are excellent at picking apart plot holes, others are great at character development and others are great at technical writing.  Also, personal opinions matter a great deal.  The writer needs to know how it would be received by the audience at large.  So every opinion matters.  

Also, for those of you who do post your works in the showcase thread, be sure to take all the criticism you receive with a level head.  The critiques are doing you a favor, take it as that.  You don't have to agree with anything, but you do need to know that someone thought something was wrong which may mean that others will as well.

And I agree about the posting swap.  If you post in the Showcase Forum you should reply to a certain amount of postings.  I would say at least a 5 to 1 ratio.

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Telcontar (May 23, 2012)

I used the showcase a couple of times myself - to share things before I started self-publishing. Heck, the feedback I received to the Swordsman of Carn Nebeth story (the first third of which I put up) was a big part of that decision. 

As far as critiquing goes, I glance at the things up there now and again. I rarely comment, though. The stories for which I feel I can make substantial critiques have often had most of my points covered already in their comments. Or (at the risk of sounding like an ass) the writing is not of a sufficient quality to merit in-depth critiquing, and posting "You need to practice for a couple more years" doesn't help anybody. 

Also, time.


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## Steerpike (May 23, 2012)

Telcontar said:


> Or (at the risk of sounding like an ass) the writing is not of a sufficient quality to merit in-depth critiquing, and posting "You need to practice for a couple more years" doesn't help anybody.



I don't think there is anything wrong with pointing that out in general, but you will occasionally see that people posting such work end up arguing with critiquers. No matter what site I'm on, I won't waste my time critiquing the work of anyone I've seen arguing with critiquers in other threads. If you don't agree with a critique, say thanks and move on. Arguing shows that critiques are wasted on that individual.


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## Hans (May 23, 2012)

For me the reason why I have no stories in the showcase is simple: I do not write in English. Most of you could probably not make much of a German text.

The reason why I have not commented in the showcase is not so simple. I am not big in reading longer texts on screen. Maybe if there was an easy way to load the show excerpts on my ebook, but reading on LCD display and in a foreign language, sorry I hardly reach the end of even the best stories there.
Also maybe I am a bit to shy to comment on others works. I am not published yet, so my comment could be very misleading? (Yea, this argument seems stupid, but I can't help it somewhere in my head it is there.)


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## Devor (May 23, 2012)

I'll give you three reasons:

1)  People don't want, don't need, the kind of feedback they're going to receive.  If you want to improve the quality of a piece, you should really talk about story before structure, structure before detail, detail before language.  The Showcase isn't really a good avenue for taking a story through those steps.  But it's just not feasible to go through that process here.  Stories are too short, it's too hard in the forums to highlight the changes you want to make (MS Word?  Track Changes, anybody?), and you don't have any context for the story.

2)  People fight the feedback.  Why should I take the time to highlight your mistakes if you aren't going to fix them?  So I highlight a sentence or two to try and talk about writing skills, but nobody wants to talk about skills, just to _defend_ the sentence.  And people don't understand, a lot of the time a story looks strong but isn't - the problem is in what's missing, not what's there.  Where's the character introduction?  Where's the MC's reaction to all of this?  Where's the setting?  When did he walk from end of the room to the other?  "It's not necessary for this scene, I don't want to drag it out."  Okay, maybe, _if you've got it covered elsewhere,_ but honestly, I doubt it.  And well, once you include all that, you realize the scene might have a new problem - it's too long and boring, right?  Right, if your _scene_ isn't strong enough to carry a few details, you either need to make it stronger, or else you need to "zoom out" and move on.  Giving you straight up feedback on the language in your scene _doesn't_ tell you anything about whether the scene should have a place in your novel - if that makes any sense.

3)  It takes a lot of time.  It does, it basically comes out of time I could use writing.  Or reading the book on my desk.  Or being useful in other ways.

I'm sorry, I think some of that may have gotten a little ranty.


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## Steerpike (May 23, 2012)

Yeah, Devor, your first two basically track with my reasons - the type of feedback a lot of people like to give is not useful; and people like to argue with the critiquer.

I figure it is up to the author to decide whether any advice given should be adopted for her story, so it doesn't bother me if the author doesn't incorporate my suggestions into the work. But don't sit there and argue with the critiquer; that's just stupid.


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## Butterfly (May 23, 2012)

Perhaps it would help to have some critique guidelines posted as a sticky thread. Or even a subforum specifically giving advice on how to critique - something like this How To Write Critiques? (only recently discovered this site and haven't joined up though - they seem really tough). Basically, something to help those of us new to critiquing, or maybe don't have much experience of it.


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## Devor (May 23, 2012)

Butterfly said:


> Perhaps it would help to have some critique guidelines posted as a sticky thread. Or even a subforum specifically giving advice on how to critique - something like this How To Write Critiques? (only recently discovered this site and haven't joined up though - they seem really tough). Basically, something to help those of us new to critiquing, or maybe don't have much experience of it.



That would be a start, but I think it could go well beyond that, if people were willing to set it up and participate.


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## Steerpike (May 23, 2012)

I think that would be great if you can get everyone to agree on the guidelines. I like a lot of what is at that link. Some of it is bollocks, like not using the word "you," as though we can then pretend that your critique isn't feedback to a "you" (namely, the author).


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## Amanita (May 23, 2012)

> For me the reason why I have no stories in the showcase is simple: I do not write in English. Most of you could probably not make much of a German text.


Me too. And I don't really think that translating parts of my work is very useful. I did it once at the beginning of my time here, but I don't think this really helps me much because my language skills are (hopefully) a good deal better in my origianl language.
Why do I not give many critics? Sometimes I do if I stumble over something interesting but I don't really think that I can say many useful things. 
I don't tend to look at fantasy stories in an objective way but some concepts simply appeal to me while others do not. This doesn't mean they have to be bad, it's very likely that other people like them, but I still don't. Given that my views are so subjective and intuitive rather than objective, I don't think I can really help anyone. Besides that, I simply don't have the language skills necessary to give quality feedback on grammar, word use and things like that.


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## Steerpike (May 23, 2012)

Feedback on grammar and word use is really secondary (or tertiary), however. The most important aspects of whether the story was successful to you don't have to include any of that


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## Aidan of the tavern (May 23, 2012)

I don't think we should go about imposing too many rigid guidelines, we don't want to make the critiquers (especially me) too uncomfortable about what we're writing.


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## Devor (May 23, 2012)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> I don't think we should go about imposing too many rigid guidelines, we don't want to make the critiquers (especially me) too uncomfortable about what we're writing.



If guidelines are any good, they would succeed at making critiques easier to write, instead of harder and more tedious.  But I don't think how-to-write-critiques would really fix the problems in the Showcase.  They might be a step, and worth doing, but most of the issues would still be there.


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## Ankari (May 23, 2012)

I don't think it has to be rigid, but a useful post on how best to critique a work should be posted and read by all.  Even if you don't use it here, it would benefit you outside of these forums.  Simple rules like:


When commenting on a particular sentence use the Quote function located at the top of the Reply window.
Be constructive instead of destructive
Speak from your heart but don't assume everyone share the same heartbeat.
It's better to comment thoroughly on one paragraph than halfhearted attempt on the entire posting.
If the author begin to show teeth, note it and avoid any future postings.
Address macro elements before micro elements.  

For authors it would be something like:


You are a big boy/girl now.  If someone doesn't like what you wrote, accept it
Don't engage in hostile interactions with your critics.  
It's fine to ask questions, but have an open mind on the response.
If you need a bigger response on a particular point, use other forums and post that question.
Don't tell critics "I'm not worried about grammar at this time."  It's a cop out.  Take all feedback, no matter what form it comes in.
Post specific questions, it gives your critics an idea of what you're looking for.
If you've posted specific questions and critics are responding to other points, don't get mad.  Understand that those points may have been on such a large scale as to totally distract the reader.
Grow thick skin and suck it up.  You cannot exist in a bubble where you were constantly fortified with praise by those of your blood.  



I'm sure there is more, but the above seems to be the right direction.


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## Devor (May 23, 2012)

Ankari said:


> I'm sure there is more, but the above seems to be the right direction.



No offense, but those are so vague I don't even remember them after reading through them.  On reread, I'm not sure I even agree with all of them.  And the tone is just a little too tough for a stickied Admin thread.

I rather think a good sticky would include broad attitude guidelines, followed by samples/templates, followed by a more detailed how-to-critique discussion with sources.

But I don't think that would really even solve it.  I think it would be best if there were more community incentive.  But I don't know what.


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## Ankari (May 23, 2012)

I wasn't doing this with the intention of making a sticky.  All I wantis to further the discourse.  I like your idea of more thorough guidelines.  I remember someone stating they were part of some official contest or critic organization.  Perhaps we can start a workshop on critiquing on these forums with oeople of that caliber directing it.


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## Lord Darkstorm (May 24, 2012)

Orson Scott Card had an interesting concept on critiquing.  Huh? What? and ZZZ
That's all there is too it.  
Huh?  for something that didn't make sense or was confusing.
What?  for something not believable.
ZZZZ  Borring.

Let the writer figure out what is wrong with the section, or if there is anything wrong.  It is so simple even someone who has never written can do it.


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## Philip Overby (May 24, 2012)

Lord Darkstorm said:


> Orson Scott Card had an interesting concept on critiquing.  Huh? What? and ZZZ
> That's all there is too it.
> Huh?  for something that didn't make sense or was confusing.
> What?  for something not believable.
> ...



I love this idea.  But what about something that is good?  "Hot damn!"  That's what I would want.

But yeah, just giving a one-word impression would then allow the writer to figure out what didn't work for the reader instead of giving long, detailed notes.  The only problem is that putting "Huh?" "What?" or "Zzzz" would probably make someone really, really angry.


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## Penpilot (May 24, 2012)

Lord Darkstorm said:


> Orson Scott Card had an interesting concept on critiquing.  Huh? What? and ZZZ
> That's all there is too it.
> Huh?  for something that didn't make sense or was confusing.
> What?  for something not believable.
> ...



I think this would work well with people who are familiar with each other. But I have my reservations for other cases because it runs under the assumption that the critique is correct and there is something wrong with a section. Some things can be subjective and an unspecific comment could cause someone to change something they didn't need to. 

I just recently had someone comment a sentence was confusing because it said someone jumped on the gravy train. They didn't know what gravy train meant. In the same critique they said a shop owner striking up a conversation with someone who came into their store as being unbelievable. Without specifics, how would one know what to ignore and what to seriously look at?


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## Devor (May 24, 2012)

Penpilot said:


> In the same critique they said a shop owner striking up a conversation with someone who came into their store as being unbelievable.



Seriously?  I've lived in suburbs, small towns and in New York City - I've never been someplace which would make me think that was remotely unbelievable.  That's crazy. . . . no, I take it back, does he live in Jersey?


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## Penpilot (May 25, 2012)

Devor said:


> Seriously?  I've lived in suburbs, small towns and in New York City - I've never been someplace which would make me think that was remotely unbelievable.  That's crazy. . . . no, I take it back, does he live in Jersey?



No, we're in Canada. It's all fluffy bunnies that poop balloons up here.  

But to me it just shows how subjective some things can be and some of the challenges of giving and getting critiques. It's hard enough in person, and for me, doing it over the net is made even more challenging. In person I can say something that takes only a minute or two, but may take me fifteen minutes to half an hour composing a post with the right tone and message.


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## Kit (May 25, 2012)

People need to be really clear with both others and themselves regarding what they truly want.

Many of us, if we were truly honest, are looking for VALIDATION and not feedback. We really want people to read our work and say "YOWZA! That's Effing AWESOME!!!! :skip: Why are you not published yet??!!" instead of handing us a numbered list of "here's all the reasons your WIP sucks."

There's nothing wrong with wanting validation... it's human.... but don't ask for feedback/critiques if what you REALLY want is validation. 

I make very free with offering validation, but am much more reticent and careful about offering feedback. When someone asks me for feedback, I always ask them if they really want validation or feedback. If they convince me that they actually want feedback, I always offer "here are a few things I like about it" along with "here are a few things that I think you could improve (as specific as possible).  No matter how crappy it is, I can always find something positive to say... and no matter how incredible it is, I can always find something that could be even more incredible.

Many of us have fragile creative egoes. Frankly it crushes the hell out of me when someone is too rough (by my own perception) on my artwork. A couple of people on this forum were a little rough on something of mine a while ago, and it was hurtful enough that I don't want to post anything else I've written on here. (Fiction-wise, that is.... I don't give a crap if people don't like my opinions; that won't slow me down....)


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## Steerpike (May 25, 2012)

Offering validation when not warranted is harmful to the writer. If you tell them "this is great, you should be published" when in reality the piece you are reviewing is a mess, you've done a terrible disservice to the person.


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## Kit (May 25, 2012)

I never said anything about FALSE validation. If I offer validation, it's sincere. Again, I can find SOMETHING to like. (I might have to strain a bit, but I'll find something!) 

I don't usually make sweeping pronouncements about the quality of the work as a whole unless it's honestly really favorable.


Anyway, if someone is actually looking for validation, they are probably not going to be open to truly hearing your critiques- and employing them- anyway. In which case you're wasting your time and theirs by giving that feedback.


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## ArielFingolfin (May 25, 2012)

I always like to include a positive and negative to the critique, otherwise I don't think it's well rounded. Yes, knowing what you need to fix helps, but knowing what you did well and what the strengths of the story are is equally important. Especially first drafts when sometimes good things happen by accident. And there's a difference between false praise and building a writer up, especially if their struggling in another aspect. I think a lot of critiquers whose advice isn't taken or is blown off are forgetting to focus on the positive as well as what needs to be fixed. Not all, but a lot. I know I'm more apt to pay attention to a critique if the person lets me know what they think works as well as what they think doesn't, not just because it makes me feel like I haven't completely wasted my time, but because I feel like they're more interested in the story and they're a serious writer who is trying to help. There have been times (not here, elsewhere) where I've felt like I was being critiqued by someone making themselves feel better about their own writing by pointing out all the flaws in mine.

Edited in: I do agree with Kit though in that a good critique focuses on specifics. You shouldn't say 'this is amazing, I've never read anything real before this' any more than you should say 'this story sucks, you're going to literary hell'. Neither are helpful.


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## Kit (May 25, 2012)

ArielFingolfin said:


> I think a lot of critiquers whose advice isn't taken or is blown off are forgetting to focus on the positive as well as what needs to be fixed.
> 
> There have been times (not here, elsewhere) where I've felt like I was being critiqued by someone making themselves feel better about their own writing by pointing out all the flaws in mine.



Exactly.  There's an interesting theory that says most editors are blocked writers.

There are a lot of people on the internet who simply seem to get their jollies by throwing rocks at other people's paper boats. 

 There are even more who seem to think they are on some kind of holy jihad to singlehandedly purge the internet of anything that falls into their (sweeping) personal definition of "bs". If I think I'm dealing with one of *those*, I tend to not take anything they say seriously (although it still makes me say "ouch") and may in fact simply put them on the "ignore" function.


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## Steerpike (May 25, 2012)

Yeah, I'm with you guys. The critique has to be honest, and whether that is mostly positive or mostly negative depends on the work. I also like to know how long the writer has been writing, personally.

I also agree that generalizations aren't very useful. If someone critiques my story by saying "Wow, this sucks" I'll ignore it. If they go into detail telling me why it sucks, then I'll consider it carefully.


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## Penpilot (May 25, 2012)

Couldn't agree with you guys more. To me finding flaws in stuff is easy. But the skill in a helpful critique is also in being able to find the positive in something. When you can do that, not only do you help writer see what they're doing right so they don't mess with that element of their writing, you help yourself because you get better at spotting the good stuff in your own writing, which I think is under emphasized.

I agree some people are just looking for a reason to go off and really don't care about helping. I've had people tell me a character's action doesn't make sense, and I needed to explain X. Generally a valid and much appreciated comment if there wasn't a whole paragraph explaining X clearly right at the beginning. This is one of my big pet peeves, people who don't really read your work but yet feel the need to take a dig into it.

If someone spent the time to really read something I wrote and speak honestly, I can take almost any comment about it because they gifted me their time. It doesn't matter if I agree or disagree with them, and to an extent, how harsh they are.

Personally, I like validation as much as then next person, but all I need is a taste. One of my greatest fears is being like one of those people who auditions for American Idol and have been told all their lives how great they can sing when in reality they're pretty terrible. I don't want to walk through life being delusional. I'd rather someone be a little too harsh than not enough. The former makes me work harder. The latter gives a false sense of self.


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## Devor (May 25, 2012)

I had to read a study about feedback when I was in college (business school, they made us learn just about every useful little thing...), and they found that giving someone feedback shifts their attention towards the areas that are mentioned, away from whatever the feedback is silent about.  They also found that comments like "You're Brilliant!" could be as negative as comments like "You're stupid" because they shifted attention towards the self instead of towards work and performance.  So that, in essence, good feedback should cover as much content as possible and remain as work-focused as possible.  Common sense.

So I think the Showcase would be more effective if people posted much smaller works and offered much more thorough feedback, to the point where people would be commenting on the feedback than on the work.

_A sentence._ This sentence doesn't have a verb. In the context of a placeholder, I don't think it needs one.

((edit))

That almost seems like a wiki discussion.  I wonder if maybe there's better software to do that.


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## Elder the Dwarf (May 25, 2012)

Maybe the best way to change the way feedback is given is to go in there and set an example.  Critique a post or two the way you think they should be critiqued and maybe people will follow your lead.

To answer the OP, I do showcase.  I haven't done so recently, but there are four or five pieces of mine in the showcase.  Feel free to check them out if you want  (though they are probably several pages back by now).  I used to critique a lot as well, but I don't do it as much anymore.  Besides being busy, when I check into the showcase section I have to be intrigued enough to give a critique.  This is absolutely not an indictment of the writers' ability in the showcase (the vast majority of you guys probably write much better than me anyways).  A story has to be right up my alley as far as the type of fantasy that I read for me to critique.  If it is not the type of story I would like to read, I probably won't enjoy it regardless of how well it is written, and I won't be able to tell you what is working and what isn't.  Because of all this, giving a critique of the piece would be unfair to the writer.  Also, I don't consider myself an authority on any of this writing business.  That makes me a bit hesitant to tell writers definitively what is good and what is bad.


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## Devor (May 25, 2012)

Elder the Dwarf said:


> Maybe the best way to change the way feedback is given is to go in there and set an example.  Critique a post or two the way you think they should be critiqued and maybe people will follow your lead.



Maybe a few of us should get together, figure out a few standards, and make like a month-long commitment to set a better example for the community and energize the Showcase.  One good push and maybe we could set a lasting trend.


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## Ankari (May 25, 2012)

Devor said:


> Maybe a few of us should get together, figure out a few standards, and make like a month-long commitment to set a better example for the community and energize the Showcase.  One good push and maybe we could set a lasting trend.



That would be excellent.  Perhaps it could even evolve into a *Review Team*.  Whatever the results, a focused group dedicated to a one or two month trailblazing effort would be great.  I would join it just for the educational benefits.


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## Elder the Dwarf (May 25, 2012)

Well right now there seems to be a dearth of entries in the showcase, so I'm going to try to throw something in there either today or tomorrow to kick off my contributions.  It will probably be something I'm struggling with, so feel free to let loose on it 

EDIT:  I posted something.  Project Red Bull engaged.  (I mean we're trying to energize it right?)


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## Justme (May 26, 2012)

I find that it's best to begin with what you dislike about a post and end with what you like about it. That way the person being critiqued is left with a positive felling.


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## pmmg (Oct 6, 2022)

Personally, I dont think MS has the tools to be a good Peer Review type of site. And having been on a number of those in the past, if it was, I am not sure I would linger. Reviewing is a lot of work, and when that is the focus, there is a lot of pressure for it, which I now avoid (I feel I already put in the miles both on Scribophile, and Fantasy-writers.org, and some others). What I enjoy most is just the puzzle and problem solving of the stuff that pops up everyday, and staying engaged with a writing community, and being near other writers.

I am unlikely to post something in the showcase. I write novels, and its near impossible to find good crit partners to read them all the way through. It would not be helpful just to post up small portions, and to crit the second book, you kind of need to read the first. I dont think any here will give that kind of commitment. And, I am not sure what would help if they did... it takes a while to really develop into a good crit partner. I would be open to finding good partners and trading works to help each other, but right now, I am in writing mode. So, I am personally putting off editing for a while. (though Avery has been helping me, and in the thing I need most...thanks Avery )

Critting here is a different story. I like to look at what people post and offer comments. I dont really do the line by line stuff because its a lot of effort, and I am not sure of the commitment of those receiving. I am more likely to put in effort for a regular, than someone who may be here for a day and then gone. And for those who I have come to know, I mean....some of you dont need line by line from me, just the same types of stuff I look for. Is it worthy? is it engaging? Does it work? Can I really point you towards what is next to help you grow? I am however likely to if its not a novel, and the cost of energy is not too high (sometimes I have nothing better to do at work....). I'm not gonna judge, but I think people should listen more when I say dont seek feedback till its finished. (And if I can give away a secret, I actually dont enjoy reading. Never did).

I think there must also come a time when we must recognize that the 80% we learned when we started, is becoming the 20% that remains and takes way more energy. And for a good portion of us, that is becoming the last 10%, which is even fewer and further between. When the writing is good our questions change. And what it changes to is stuff that showcase is not for.

So, I am willing to look at showcase stuff, if it is needed, but better would be to get involved in the community, find people you like, and gain a set of beta readers who read you cause you read them. Showcase is not the best use of the site, IMO. Scribophile would be a better place to get quick first effort feedback. I am not on scribophile...I am on MS. I like it here.  We have a good set of veterans and professionals...and for me, it is a good place to hang.

Sorry for kicking the dust off another one.


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