# Actually strong female character.



## Ban (Aug 11, 2016)

Hello everyone!
This should be a more straightforward question then my previous one on the use of violence (great answers btw).

I have decided that I want a female boxer as a main character in a futuristic american fifties world. She should be a strong lead. However I abhor the stereotypical "strong" female character. Often these characters seem to not be strong at all and I can't figure out exactly why I feel that way.

I have already decided that she will not be an emotional wreck. She has a functioning family and loves her career. What are some other clichÃ©s I should pay attention to?


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 11, 2016)

Banten said:


> Hello everyone!
> This should be a more straightforward question then my previous one on the use of violence (great answers btw).
> 
> I have decided that I want a female boxer as a main character in a futuristic american fifties world. She should be a strong lead. However I abhor the stereotypical "strong" female character. Often these characters seem to not be strong at all and I can't figure out exactly why I feel that way.
> ...



I too hate the "strong female character" stereotype. You're right, often these characters aren't strong at all, and i think it's because the "strength" is superficial or downright illusory. 

A "strong female character" is typically one who can fight and 'doesn't need a man.' A character who doesn't fight is rarely considered a 'strong female character.' That's ridiculous on many levels, but insane, unrealistic fighting skill is typically used as a substitute for actual strength. 

This is a problem in YA, but i don't know about elsewhere--trying to make female characters strong and emotionless, and going too far and making them sociopaths. 'Strong female characters' that don't care about their families or anyone they love, are abusive to everyone around them, are ridiculously prideful and spiteful, and don't listen to anyone are far too common. I've read books and found myself thinking "where are her feelings?" 

Apparently having feelings and the capacity to love makes you weak. 

On the other hand, you have characters who can beat up 12 guys in 30 seconds, but are weak, whiny marshmallows constantly poised to melt onto the bronzed chest of the nearest sexy male whenever something doesn't go their way. There isn't much of an in between. 

Personally, i like

-characters that are competent and have skills, but not necessarily fighting
-characters that actually love and sacrifice for their significant other/love interest, but don't depend on him to solve all her problems 
-that make mistakes, but don't pitch a fit about it and take responsibility for the consequences
-that have feelings and are affected by them, but are able to pick themselves up and make clearheaded decisions at the end of the day.


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## Alile (Aug 11, 2016)

I shall keep my point short and sweet (I'm only trying to be ironic in a friendly way and there is some seriousness to this): Assume she is male. 

No, really. This question is not at all easier than your thread about violence. Please let me ramble on for a bit, because I feel like voicing my thoughts could paint a larger picture. 

The world is populated by people. People usually comes in two genders. Male and female. It's been that way since the dawn of human kind. Yet we are not equal (not in our modern world - the reality readers and writers live in; not in literature or other art). Obviously we are not the same, but we're not that different either? What happened to us as one species to provoke forth a need for an Actual strong female lead in literature? How do we view women in our society and our art and our fantasy stories since there is a need for this thread at all? I'm sensing you feel there is a lack of strong, believeable female leads, so why is that, if not a symptom of the very world view and gender view we live in and nurture forth? (Our world question): So what is bred into us from culture and religion; the enironment we live in, and what is biological differences?
And thus, how is your world different from ours? (Fantasy writing questions to be aware of). You don't need to have our world's unbalanced ideas about the genders. Imagine say a world where everyone believed in a Goddess and her Son for 2000 years. How would things have been different? Then women would be created in the image of the Goddess, and so forth with all the implications of this other religion.

Why even today is a strong female lead difficult, filled with cliches and stereotypes? Do we, when we write, often put limitations on female characters? Or is it a lack of real-life role models that make our heroines un-believeable? Is it rather that our readers can't accept them as genuine and true, because of our real world? Is it because a different view of women and men just seem alien to readers and when women step out of their traditional role, it's just really uncomfortable and weird and un-normal and why should women need to be strong when there are men out there to protect them?

Obviously gender roles and their limitations can be reversed, where men are allowed to cry just to take one example. But I'm not going to bother discussing the imminent need for a strong male lead (barf, just saying this proves my point I hope). Yes, a man in my story may have a female gender role, a woman character can have a male gender role. 

But what I like to think about is what unites humans of any gender, what makes us the same. Any human trait, action, speech, feeling, motive, beliefs, opinions, our building blocks and functioning... take any character and apply that to the character regardeless of sex. And also just take it for granted that this is the way it's supposed to be. Men and women might be strong in different ways, but they can be strong independant of their sex and also because of their sex. 

Look at your stereoptypes and how you really feel about them yourself. Ask why, and what makes them stereotypes? Then look at your cliche strong female leads. Again scrutinize yourself. I encourage everyone to question your own views of women, or in the broader sense, of genders and gender roles. And also be aware of how you write and how often you come across this. If you have a human being or a person in your book, you are already in this zone. 

Honestly, from the bottom of my heart, I do not think strong female leads are cliche yet.


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## Ban (Aug 11, 2016)

Thank you for the suggestions DragonOfTheAerie, I fully agree with what you wrote.


Interesting analysis Alile. I agree that it is important to remember how gender roles within the ficitional world are. The world in question is largely the way people from the fifties would assume the far future would be. Big machines, space travel, hovering vehicles, lots and lots of chrome, but with societal stasis. The nuclear family would still be the expected way to live. Husband goes to work, wife stays at home. So I wonder how I can write a strong female character with a good career in a stereotypically male profession in such a world. I am wondering how she can do her thing without the character turning into a walking social commentary on injustice.

Oh and I definetely don't think strong female leads are or could ever be clichÃ©, I just don't think they are done well in mainstream fiction. Great characters like Ripley exist ofcourse, but they are not the norm at all.


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## Ireth (Aug 11, 2016)

I'm not sure what to think about the title of this thread. Physical strength is not the be-all and end-all of "actual" strength. There's mental strength and emotional strength as well. A "strong female character" need not be an unbeatable warrior, but she should (imo) have perseverance and conviction at the very least.


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## Ban (Aug 11, 2016)

I hope the title isn't misleading. 
Just to clear things up. When I say "actually" I mean as opposed to stereotypical "strong" characters in alot of mainstream fiction. I was not at all referring to physical strength as "being be-all and end-all" (hope you don't mind me quoting you Ireth  ). Personally I think emotional and mental strength is THE determining factor in how strong a character comes across, so thanks for the suggestions Ireth.


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## Penpilot (Aug 11, 2016)

I'll agree with Ireth here on physical strength does not a strong character make. 

IMHO, if you want to avoid cliche, stop thinking of your character as a the strong female character, and just think of them as a character. Think of them as a person first not a type.

And remember, the image sold to us by movies and film about what the fifties, what any period in time, were like is not actually how the fifties were in reality. It's an exaggeration, a distilling of the essence into a more potent taste. So there are many directions you can take this.

If you don't want it to be a walking talking political commentary, then don't make it one. Don't make gender the issue. Don't make all males chauvinists. Maybe make them the minority, but the minority that's accepted as OK. A vocal minority of opinion drowns out the majority if they remain silent, so don't give them a voice, or at least a loud one, or don't make the majority silent.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 11, 2016)

If you want to write about the 50's talk to someone who was alive during that time. They might be able to help.


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## Alile (Aug 11, 2016)

I would read about the 50's and social life back then, maybe watch a few old movies to check out how they dressed and danced, make-up and hair styles, this was after all the early days of rock and roll and women were beginning to change the female role forever. The clash between the parent generation and the youths would likely be big. But read up on the history, mechanics, rules of boxing, anything to do with the sport, especially in the country your story is set.



> (USA)Marian “Tyger” Trimiar and Jackie Tonawanda were pioneers as they were the first women in the United States to get a licesnce for boxing in the United States.[27][28]
> During the 1980s, women's boxing briefly resurfaced in California under the wings of sisters Dora and Cora Webber. The twin sisters were world champions and packed crunching punching power and a good chin. Women took hunger strikes to be noticed [29]


 Quoting what I needed from Wikipedia here, this is the link. Women's boxing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1980, only 30 years ago, females went to hunger strikes to get noticed. Horrifying, isn't it? Equal rights did not come easy, right, if they are even there today, especially in sports. We still name it "women's football", "women's soccer", "women's tennis". I can't imagine what it would have been like in 1950 when those terms just didn't exist.

I would think a lot of young girls hearing about your main character's profession would secretly admire it, or find it positively outrageous!, but from such a world I would expect a lot of negative reactions. From men giggling and ridiculing her "work", to those scorning her for it, to sexist remarks and leering. Women might think it very unappropriate, both because women aren't supposed to fight and be violent, the boxing clothes (she's not wearing a skirt), she's got to work for a living poor thing, who does she think she is, she should settle down... limitless possibilies. She would be the talk and the age of the women talking might dictate what's being said. 
I think how she copes with this would be important and possibly part of her strength.
Who's your character boxing against? Men, women, both? In a lot of countries it was apparantly forbidden for women to do boxing at all.


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## Ban (Aug 11, 2016)

It seems like I gained better advice than I initially asked for. Nooo problemo

Penpilot thank you for that comment. I really hadn't thought about it, that most people might simply be subjected to the whims of the vocal minority. When I envision previous generations I often end up viewing an era as if it was a monolith. One single entity, which ofcourse is a completely wrong way of reading history.

Alile I am way ahead on you on the boxing research :0 used to do it myself. Write about what you know right  . I really like your ideas here  . Especially how in an age of oppression (of any kind) there will be people who agree with the status quo and people who disagree, even within the margenalized group. I like the idea of a growing fanbase of young people secretely admiring the character and her peers, while the older generations shake their head and reminisce on traditional values. 

I think I will combine your ideas. A traditional society in which most people don't really mind proffessional women's sports, but a vocal minority does. This should provide enough struggle to make the setting the way I want, while still allowing my character to be... well a character.


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## La Volpe (Aug 11, 2016)

I think the best 'strong' characters aren't marked by their ability to behead orcs or any other specific skill, but rather by their ability and willingness to go after what they want.

Proactivity, for me, is what makes a strong character, and that's pretty independent of gender.


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## Russ (Aug 11, 2016)

For me strength is the ability to endure suffering and deprivation in pursuit of one's goals.  Perhaps I am biased but I think women tend to be better at that then men.


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## Holoman (Aug 11, 2016)

I'm struggling with this myself. I have a big character who is a strong woman. She comes across initially as sociopathic, and emotionless, and generally kicks ass, but underneath she is very hurt and she just doesn't let out her emotions to anyone. Over the course of the story the MC gets an insight into her, and she shows some emotion but is very resistant to it. We learn why she is the way she is and hopefully the reader can empathise with her.

I'm really hoping it doesn't come across as clichÃ©, because she is one of my favourite characters.


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## skip.knox (Aug 11, 2016)

The trope about men don't cry irks me every time. It's not a gender attribute. There are plenty of cultures in which men cry freely. Even in European society, if you go back a few centuries, you can find strong knights weeping on every street corner. Okay, not literally because not many street corners, but it's there in the literature and it's represented as nothing shameful or even unusual. I view men-don't-cry as a peculiar modern aberration.

As for having a strong female lead, you can't just decide that. She has to be strong *in the story*. It's all about what challenges you will throw at her, and how she responds. Real strength does not lie in never getting knocked down; real strength lies in how you get back up.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 11, 2016)

Holoman said:


> I'm struggling with this myself. I have a big character who is a strong woman. She comes across initially as sociopathic, and emotionless, and generally kicks ass, but underneath she is very hurt and she just doesn't let out her emotions to anyone. Over the course of the story the MC gets an insight into her, and she shows some emotion but is very resistant to it. We learn why she is the way she is and hopefully the reader can empathise with her.
> 
> I'm really hoping it doesn't come across as clichÃ©, because she is one of my favourite characters.



If she starts to open up to someone and heal, great. If the reader understands why she is the way she is, also great.

But if her emotionlessness and sociopathic-ness is supposed to be what makes her strong or special, then that would be a red flag. Or, if she just is that way for no reason other than she's "stronger and better than those other girls that are controlled by their emotions." That's what i was talking about. 

My MC is very shy and doesn't open up to people easily, but she is also a dragon rider with terrifying powers. I wouldn't call her emotionless, though, she just doesn't like people very much, and prefers to keep to herself. Her powers and her position are rather contradictory to who she is as a person. She doesn't want to be important or feared. 

it's all in the way you do it, really.


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## Holoman (Aug 11, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> If she starts to open up to someone and heal, great. If the reader understands why she is the way she is, also great.
> 
> But if her emotionlessness and sociopathic-ness is supposed to be what makes her strong or special, then that would be a red flag. Or, if she just is that way for no reason other than she's "stronger and better than those other girls that are controlled by their emotions." That's what i was talking about.
> 
> ...



Well when I say she's strong what I think I mean is that she's physically strong and can kick ass. She does have the emotional strength to keep on going after a lot of tragedies have befallen her. She's also very scared, but too proud to admit it to herself.

A lot of people love her because she protects their towns. But she hates all the attention and generally shuns them all.

I think she's based on me to be honest (except the strong warrior part lol). People generally think I'm cold and unresponsive, because I don't show emotions really, including positive like interest and happiness. I keep it all inside except for with people I'm very close to.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 11, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> The trope about men don't cry irks me every time. It's not a gender attribute. There are plenty of cultures in which men cry freely. Even in European society, if you go back a few centuries, you can find strong knights weeping on every street corner. Okay, not literally because not many street corners, but it's there in the literature and it's represented as nothing shameful or even unusual. I view men-don't-cry as a peculiar modern aberration.
> 
> As for having a strong female lead, you can't just decide that. She has to be strong *in the story*. It's all about what challenges you will throw at her, and how she responds. Real strength does not lie in never getting knocked down; real strength lies in how you get back up.



same here. As much attention is drawn to our society's damaging ideas of femininity, i think our ideas of masculinity are just as ridiculous and damaging.


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## Alile (Aug 11, 2016)

Skip.knox said; 





> The trope about men don't cry irks me every time.[...] I view men-don't-cry as a peculiar modern aberration.



To clarify, I wrote; 





> Obviously gender roles and their limitations can be reversed, where men are allowed to cry just to take one example.


 Yes, the idea that men shouldn't cry is a thing in itself, but it is also an limitation in our society; gender roles, views of them and expectations within them. I'm aware. It's an example, I chose it to get a point through, but perhaps my wording wasn't careful enough. 
'To be honest, I only hope that in time you can get to be who you are, and realize yourself fully, no matter what gender you are. But I don't think we are there yet. However, in your own fantasy world, you get to decide this.


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## Caged Maiden (Aug 11, 2016)

@ Dragon YES! I agree that's how I see a lot of "strong female characters" come off. They're better than "the other girls" because they're something special. It's so hard to differentiate how that impacts different female readers, but I wholeheartedly agree that execution is key, once again. 

I am busy writing a strong woman who is rather calculating and cold, but inside, she's very emotional. I perhaps based that off myself a little, because in my professional life, I'm unfazed and generally unable to be hurt by anything that happens or is said. The most I come to "being emotional" as a professional person, is that I sometimes get angry at times when personalities clash and perhaps when my expectations weren't met.

But in my personal life...whole different story. I'm riddled with guilt and worried so deeply by some nonsense or the other (changes on any given day, but there are the oldies but goodies I lug around for months or years), and generally am squishy as a rotten plum. A single word of discouragement from someone I love can cripple me emotionally for weeks. Make me question whether I'm worth anything at all, and cause me to withdraw.

I think when we show any character, it's important to give them hopes, fears, needs, and weaknesses. We all have them. I pasted an enneagram chart into my blank character sheet, to use as a reference any time I create a character and they don't feel really complete. It helps give me a cheat sheet where I can reference a personality type to which I don't belong. 

As far as writing strong women (I'm going by what agents have said on their blogs and sites), we shouldn't be aiming at how emotional a character is, but rather how much they are prepared to act. Plainly put, I see strength as determination, mettle, audacity, intelligence, competency, and so much more. Is a "weak" woman one that weeps uncontrollably, or marries the first man who offers to put her up comfortably in a house? I mean, what really defines strong and weak? I know plenty of real life men who do not choose to change their situations, but rather, settle and choose to not take a risk. That, to me, is a weak character in fiction. Whether your character is a woman warrior, or a woman baker, the thing that defines her as strong is how much she's willing to DO to get what she wants/ protect the things she holds dear/ attain the thing she wants to be/ etc..

A character, man or woman, is a complex being with a full history and both short-term and long-term goals. In my book, opposite my calculating but emotional woman, is a man who comes off as sort of gruff, but inside, he mourns the loss of his wife and son, and desperately longs to be a father again. Maybe I'd have never come up with that on my own. It was my husband who taught me how softly a man's heart can beat when he yearns to love a child. 

A character should have something that makes them soft, and something that makes them strong. I feel like there are times I defer to others, and times I stand up and speak. Not all characters will react to the same things, and sometimes as the writer, it's really hard to write a character who's really different from you. I find that most of my male characters are perhaps more outwardly sensitive than most men would claim to be, but not necessarily more so than the wonderful male friends I have in my own life, who have shared honestly with me their feelings. And some of my women are more driven by their feelings (perhaps even compared to a sense of "normal"), while others lock that stuff up and throw away the key because it's a dog-eat-dog world for them, and weakness is a death sentence. 

What a great conversation.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 11, 2016)

What I hate about the concept of "strong female characters" is that it implies that females aren't, generally, strong, and thus need an added qualifier. As if strength isn't typical of women, and whenever one is we have to specify that she's "strong." You'll notice that "strong male characters" aren't a thing, as if men are always or usually strong...?


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## Caged Maiden (Aug 11, 2016)

Yeah, or if you have a big/ tall woman as a character, she ought to be a fighter, because a beast like that is unfit for any other "womanly" tasks. Thoroughly dislike that one, too. I mean...I'm fine with female soldiers, but does it have to cost them their femininity? Their identity as a woman? 

One of my favorite characters from Robert Asprin's MYTH series is Massha. Not the beautiful temptress, but rather the opposite. And she's so much fun in MYTH-ing Persons! OMG!!!


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## Penpilot (Aug 11, 2016)

Alile said:


> In 1980, only 30 years ago, females went to hunger strikes to get noticed. Horrifying, isn't it? Equal rights did not come easy, right, if they are even there today, especially in sports. We still name it "women's football", "women's soccer", "women's tennis". I can't imagine what it would have been like in 1950 when those terms just didn't exist.



I'm not a history scholar, but I'd like to reiterate that the pop culture version of history is a distorted version. I'm trying not to step into the powderkeg of modern feminism, but I'd just like to share some photos that can be googled up from the late 19th and early 20th Century. 

The first women's hockey clubs date back to the 1890s








Many think tennis was introduced to America by a woman by the name of Mary Ewing Outerbridge, "Mother of Tennis."







And lets not forget there was a professional women's baseball for a time. Remember the Movie A League of their Own?













I grew up in the 80s and from what I observed, it was a time not of suppression of women's rights. It was a time where they were exercising them. Margarette Thatcher was the UKs PM from 1979 to 1990.  We had the first American Woman in space, Sally Ride, in 1983.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 11, 2016)

Caged Maiden said:


> Yeah, or if you have a big/ tall woman as a character, she ought to be a fighter, because a beast like that is unfit for any other "womanly" tasks.


But she can be tall _and _a fighter _and _feminine… right?


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## evolution_rex (Aug 11, 2016)

I'd stop viewing it as 'I want a strong female character that doesn't follow strong female stereotypes' and more about building a character based on characteristics that you want, with the gender being a trivial matter in the wider scope of the character. If you write a human, people will be able to understand why the character acts the way he or she does. Then, just like real life, your character might accidentally have stereotypes but it won't exactly matter because you've written a human and you can attribute stereotypes to any human.

That doesn't mean not to be aware of stereotypes, but I think people get so hooked on the idea of not following stereotypes that they create flat characters. It's partially why the strong female stereotype of being emotionless comes from; they didn't want to make a stereotypical feminine character so they avoided any kind of characterization other than the main attribute of strength.


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## Caged Maiden (Aug 11, 2016)

HA! Yeah, I know there's a few folks here who write really big women fighters, and I don't mean any offense. I just mean to say that sometimes, in some story concepts, it can feel like a bigger woman has no other use than as a fighter...and I do think even women who work as mercenaries or other fighting-type jobs are still women. I mean, it shouldn't be any different than policewomen or soldiers today...they don't *have* to be anything other than just women. I mean, to show how strong they are...


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 11, 2016)

Or, what about the idea that strong female characters have to hate everything traditionally associated with femininity? I see this all the time: the "strong" woman who hates dresses and doesn't want to settle down and pop out babies for a man, she wants to go out and dress like a man and do man things...ugh. 

There is NOTHING WRONG with liking dresses or wanting a family or being a stay at home mom or any of it. They don't make you less strong or important. Being feminine doesn't make you less valuable! 

Maybe instead of characterizing women as "strong" based on how stereotypically "masculine" they are, what about we celebrate them as women, celebrate their femininity? My favorite "strong females" in books have been "feminine," dress wearing ladies who don't hunt or fight, but are smart, competent, and awesome. The "warrior lady who can beat up 30 guys at once" never seems genuine to me.  If acting like a man is what makes a woman "strong" then it implies there's something wrong with being a woman. Not that I mind women playing roles traditionally filled by men. But there's nothing wrong with just being a wife and mother either. When you think "strong female" you think of the warrior lady I mentioned earlier, not a married woman who has kids...but my Mom is probably the strongest person I know. And...seriously, what does wearing a dress have to do with anything? I like them. They're swishy and fun to twirl in. I feel like having your heroine hate dresses is just a way to distinguish her from "those other girls" and PLEASE DONT DO THAT! Being both strong and female is not some special, unusual thing that makes you stand out above all the rest. It's not. 

Some characters are suited to combat roles, some aren't. You need characters to beat up the bad guys. You need characters to patch them up after they're done beating up the bad guys just as much. You need characters to pull your MC into a long kiss and make them promise to come back safe as they go off into battle just as you need the characters who are fighting in the battle. (In my WIP my female MC would be the one going off to battle and her partner would be the one saying goodbye. But he's not less important. He's a thinker, not a fighter, and the story needs thinkers just as much as it needs fighters.)


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 12, 2016)

We give women "masculine" traits, but we don't give men "feminine" traits. 

(Now, the definition of feminine is just "pertaining to a girl or woman," so if you are a girl or woman and you are doing or being something, that thing is feminine.  But I'm talking in terms of traditional views and ideas...which some girls and women diverge from and some conform more to. I mean, I don't believe men and women are exactly the same, but that's a very long discussion, and even then we can only speak in general terms. People are so varied in how they think and act and feel, "male" and "female" traits are going to overlap more than not.) 

It's not shameful for a woman to act "like a man" but it is shameful for a man to act "like a woman." Why does that have negative connotations? 

There was some discussion earlier about how it's not socially acceptable for men to cry. I'm not sure men and women feel emotions any differently, so why? I've noticed that society has strict rules about how and when men are supposed to express their emotions. Now, I cry about basically everything, I'm just a really emotional person and I don't think there's anything wrong with it, and its not considered unusual, really, because I'm female...but, it's not acceptable for a guy to cry about anything short of someone dying. 

You'll notice that one of the main qualifiers for a strong female character is that she expresses her emotions less. I get that fiction has to be different from reality in this way. If anyone had to read about my mood swings they would throw the book across the room. But characters should be able to cry and be angry and emotional without being judged as weak. It says a lot about our culture, really. A character who shows her emotions or is at all affected by them will quickly be labeled a "Bella Swan". (Bella's problem was her utter self loathing, dependency on others for her self esteem, and pessimistic, judgmental attitude toward everything and everyone. And I only read the first few pages.) 

(Crying is good, ok? It's perfectly natural and healthy and helps you to feel better. There's nothing strong about being unable to acknowledge and process the fact that you're hurting.) 

Why are emotionless characters interesting to read about, anyway? Why does anyone want to read about them? I, as an extremely sensitive and emotional person, can't relate to emotionless characters. Even a seemingly emotionless character should eventually crack and show a little of what's inside. 

The strong female trope has very little to do with actual strength.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 12, 2016)

Let's discuss. What IS strength, do you think?


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## Miskatonic (Aug 12, 2016)

The term seems to be such a loaded one that I'd rather it be abandoned. Whenever I hear someone say "strong female lead" it seems like they are merely demanding more female characters in general and don't like any of the ones who aren't "strong females". Just sounds like nonsense to me.


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## La Volpe (Aug 12, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Or, what about the idea that strong female characters have to hate everything traditionally associated with femininity? I see this all the time: the "strong" woman who hates dresses <snip>



To be fair, the 'strong women' hating dresses are usually because dresses are not made for active activities such as fighting/horseriding etc. So especially if the character is a fighter, she won't want to wear dresses, since they would encumber her in a fight.

As a side note, she might just dislike them because the particular society's women are passive and wear dresses, and thus specifically refusing to wear dresses allows her to silently protest the passiveness of the women.

As another side note, I liked the way Vin from the Mistborn series handled this. She did like dresses, and wore them to social events etc., but she'd switch back to pants and a mistcloak when she's doing any kind of patrolling or fighting.



> He's a thinker, not a fighter, and the story needs thinkers just as much as it needs fighters.)



Thinkers, as you mention, don't need to be weak characters. A very good example of a strong male thinker is Patrick Jane from the Mentalist TV series. He runs away at the first sign of violence, but he's still the most influential person in that show.



DragonOfTheAerie said:


> There was some discussion earlier about how it's not socially acceptable for men to cry. I'm not sure men and women feel emotions any differently, so why? I've noticed that society has strict rules about how and when men are supposed to express their emotions. Now, I cry about basically everything, I'm just a really emotional person and I don't think there's anything wrong with it, and its not considered unusual, really, because I'm female...but, it's not acceptable for a guy to cry about anything short of someone dying.
> <snip>
> (Crying is good, ok? It's perfectly natural and healthy and helps you to feel better. There's nothing strong about being unable to acknowledge and process the fact that you're hurting.)



Crying is generally a sign of being overwhelmed. If I were to hazard a guess, the biological reason for people to cry is to signal other people that you are in pain and in need of physical or emotional help. Ergo, if you cry, you're showing other people that you are being overwhelmed, and thus not completely in control.

Men, in general (less so nowadays, but certainly a lot in the stone age et al), are expendable, and thus the ones who do the dangerous stuff (i.e. hunting and war). Men generally (and especially if they are in any kind of team or group) sort themselves into a hierarchy. If the guy at the top is showing that he is not completely in control, the others could lose faith in him (because they follow him, and they don't want to put their lives in the hands of somehow who can't handle it) and he could drop down the hierarchy.

So crying, if the social context views it as a weakness, will threaten your position in the world if you're a man. Your wealth, love, food, or life could depend on your ability to hold in the tears.



> It's not shameful for a woman to act "like a man" but it is shameful for a man to act "like a woman." Why does that have negative connotations?



Well, actually, as far as I'm aware, it was heavily frowned upon (a century ago) for a woman to be acting like a man. Not forbidden, but not exactly an everyday occurrence.

It's only recently that it's become more acceptable for women to be "acting like men".


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 12, 2016)

Caged Maiden said:


> HA! Yeah, I know there's a few folks here who write really big women fighters, and I don't mean any offense. I just mean to say that sometimes, in some story concepts, it can feel like a bigger woman has no other use than as a fighter...and I do think even women who work as mercenaries or other fighting-type jobs are still women. I mean, it shouldn't be any different than policewomen or soldiers today...they don't *have* to be anything other than just women. I mean, to show how strong they are...


None was taken.

Right now I'm playing a pathfinder RPG, and my druid character WAS 5'0", ~100 lbs. until she rescued a fairy and found a way to become one. So now she's 6" tall, 1.6 oz. The GM does an awesome job making it scary to be a fairy living among humans. I definitely want to write this character in short stories. But my point is that I never felt like she had to be "weak" due to lack of height. She's a samurai's daughter, she's never killed before (yet), she has a protective nature... these are traits that play into her personality.


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## Svrtnsse (Aug 12, 2016)

This may have come up before, but... 
When it comes to talking about "strong" characters in storytelling I try to think of it as the character being strong enough to carry the story forward.


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## Miskatonic (Aug 12, 2016)

Caged Maiden said:


> HA! Yeah, I know there's a few folks here who write really big women fighters, and I don't mean any offense. I just mean to say that sometimes, in some story concepts, it can feel like a bigger woman has no other use than as a fighter...and I do think even women who work as mercenaries or other fighting-type jobs are still women. I mean, it shouldn't be any different than policewomen or soldiers today...they don't *have* to be anything other than just women. I mean, to show how strong they are...



I have an "amazon" type character that is just over 6' tall and relatively strong, but given the average height of the men in her civilization is like 6'6" she doesn't really stand out. A lot of the other women are also close to her height as well. She's the same height as the MC so that makes it interesting. All in all she doesn't have that whole being the tall and physically strong woman that stands out from the crowd mindset going on; thus she doesn't have the compulsion that since she's an anomaly or outcast she has to take on a role where her size and strength are the only thing she has going for her. She _is_ a warrior, and there is a tomboyish element (not an overwhelming personality trait though),but her outlook on things is much closer to that of a regular woman in society.


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## Alile (Aug 12, 2016)

I'd like to think about how this discussion has been flowing and comment on a few things. These are my views, but like any writer I sometimes write for impact and I just want to warn you that my tone of voice and ideas may offend you, I'm running short on time so I'm just going to post this now. I am not quoting anyone and I'm not aiming at anyone in particular. Just trying to analyze some general themes.

All right, so a few themes that has occured so far in this discussion that I picked up on, are (among others) these:

*Strength is physical. 
Strenght depends on your size. A big woman is not that feminine. And so: small woman can't fight... (There are other things to take into consideration in fights like agility, speed, technique, experience, luck; this is another discussion). 
Also: What about mental strength or the strength to deal with emotions, indeed, what is strength?

*Emotion is feminine.
The way I read many of these posts there is a lot of mention of emotion and women/femininity. Nobody has directly said it, but it just appears in this discussion, over and over again, as if it was natural and completely normal. It hasn't been pointed out yet, but it's there all the time. Why do we connect emotion to our female characters so much?

*A difference between personality traits and the role the character has in a written story.
That a character shall move the story forward is another function than a character who can benchpress 220 pounds.

*Anything to do with human people, and genders in our real world and in our fantasy worlds that we create ourselves.
These two do not need to be the same. Be aware of what bias or opinions you bring from your world reality into your writing.

*The idea that women are considered equal to men is a mass illusion. It's just not true. Not in our "modern" North American/European world, and absolutly not in Africa, South America, the Middle East or in Asia. Why on Earth would we even discuss this topic if we weren't having issues with it?

I think it's about being human, and having equal human possibilites, the right to freedom. Opportunity. Human rights. To be able to realize who you are. Yes, we talk about women wearing dresses, but what about a man who wants to wear high heels? Be aware that these clothing codes are a result of YOUR world and how you ENFORCE these codes. Even sub-conciously. Even into your writing.

Paul Lazarsfeld in 1949 wrote this: "Years of oppression take a toll on achievement motivation". He used that sentence to describe why black privates in WWII were less eager for promotion than white privates. Make no mistake, I'm not comparing oppression of women to the oppression of the slaves and black people, the point is the quote. Women today often can't be bothered getting up on the barricades to burn their bra's and should they do so it creates an outrage from both men and women because, come on!!! It's 2016. But here we are, still wrapped up in discussing how a woman character can be strong. Isn't the need for this thread a sympthom of our ideas and culture adn worldview? 

Social studies, social psychology in particular look at these things (among a lot of things):
Topic; Social influence.
*Culture and biology
*Pressure to conform
*Persuasion
*Groups of people
These deal with how people view and affect one another. They can be used in our every day life and to analyze our lives and that of our characters. Culture is defined in one place as "The enduring behaviours, ideas, attitudes, and traditions shared by a large group of people; and transmitted from one generation to the next." Genders and gender roles and views on genders fall into this research. 
People like studying people, maybe because we want to understand ourselves. What made us into who we are.


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 12, 2016)

There is an old RPG supplement by Iron Crown I think, called ... And a ten foot pole. It is a huge collection of gear that your character can buy. It is with everything in that book in addition to the ten foot pole that I will not touch this subject, LOL.

It has been done to death. Write a strong character and forget about it.


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## Miskatonic (Aug 12, 2016)

Demesnedenoir said:


> There is an old RPG supplement by Iron Crown I think, called ... And a ten foot pole. It is a huge collection of gear that your character can buy. It is with everything in that book in addition to the ten foot pole that I will not touch this subject, LOL.
> 
> It has been done to death. Write a strong character and forget about it.



I'll give it the occasional prod with the proverbial ten foot pole but that's about it.


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## Gurkhal (Aug 12, 2016)

I'd say that you shouldn't care about "strong women" - whatever the hell that means - but develop female characters that works in the story and are interesting to read about and interact in a meaningful way, and then readers can figure out for themselves if a character is strong or not.


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## Laurence (Aug 12, 2016)

Molly Weasley is an awesome example of a strong woman.


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## FifthView (Aug 12, 2016)

Banten said:


> Personally I think emotional and mental strength is THE determining factor in how strong a character comes across, so thanks for the suggestions Ireth.



Isn't it odd that when we think of a "character" in fiction, we sometimes forget "character" as in one's character, "the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual?"

For me, one type of strength arises from having a strong personal moral compass.  I add the "personal" to it because I don't think it needs to be something generic or socially acceptable (within our world or a fantasy world), and so forth.  Strong characters usually seem to have a guiding principle or set of principles that guide them, and depending on the character these principles might be something I personally share or they could be something distasteful to me, but


Those principles are real for that character
That character is conscious of them—to some extent.  She made a conscious choice at some point in the past, even if sometimes now she can function without having the principle at the forefront of her mind.
Those principles guide the character's endeavors and reactions, when applicable.
That character doesn't veer from them but stays on course come hell or high water.

For me, these principles are not simply intrinsic or genetic or irrational, springing from impulse.  They are a sort of conscious orientation.  For me, this is strength.

As for that last bullet point, sometimes strong characters can be shown to "veer" from or to sacrifice a principle; but this is only because some higher, more important principle is in conflict with it.  The character still adheres to principle.

Sometimes the principle takes a material form.  For instance, a loved one or an object of devotion (like a state or institution.)

Such a character can show indifference to an outcome if her principles or guiding stars aren't at stake or have nothing to say on the given possibilities for the outcome.  A person can be absolutely devoted to her family; but in a strange country may not give a damn about whether the ruling government stands or falls—if neither outcome affects the wellbeing of her family, and despite the fact that such a contest might harm _other_ families.


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## FifthView (Aug 12, 2016)

I suppose I overlooked the main question from the OP, re: things to avoid.

In light of what I wrote above, I'd say avoid the easy, unexplained, generic principles or adherence to principle.  In a way, this also means avoiding that intrinsic, irrational adherence to "principle."  I put principle in scare quotes there because sometimes I encounter what I'd consider to be blobs:  the character who will step in to defend a child being bullied "just because" that's "the right thing to do," or because the character has some sort of irrational reaction to seeing a child being bullied (most likely an uninvited flashback to being bullied herself or seeing her younger brother being bullied) and so forth.

It's not as if a strong character can't be shown targeting bullies and can't have strong emotions relating to the existence of bullies.  But something more than a knee-jerk, generic display would be better.  Something other than an impulsive lashing out.

Now, none of the above is meant to imply that irrational characters can't be interesting.  But I do think that confusing the two, or using irrational impulsive behavior to somehow signify strength, can be self-defeating.


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## skip.knox (Aug 12, 2016)

>o be fair, the 'strong women' hating dresses are usually because dresses are not made for active activities such as fighting/horseriding

I think this comes close to what matters to us as story tellers. A character who must wear a dress while riding a horse, because that is what society demands, is very likely going to hate dresses, or at least hate riding while wearing a dress. The character could as readily decide she hates riding, because she likes dresses. Or hates dresses because she likes riding.

But if the story presents her hating dresses without some sort of cultural context, expecting we will all be instantly sympathetic, then the story lets us down. In fantasy, we get to rewrite cultural rules. The point, imo, is not what are the stereotypes, the point is what are the stereotypes for this story's culture, and how does that further my story.

I'm aware some writers like to put "non-traditional" characters into their stories as a statement of some kind, and that's fine. I don't think that needs any sort of justification at all. If the OP wants a strong female lead, then let that phrase mean whatever the author wants it to mean, and good on ya.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 12, 2016)

A thread not too long ago posted this link which i think is pretty accurate: 

I hate Strong Female Characters


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## Ban (Aug 12, 2016)

I just want to state that I used "Actually Strong Female Character" as a title because "strong female character" is a fairly oftenly used set of words when writing fiction and it's a nice title. I do not believe women are inherently weaker than men, nor do I believe a strong woman is an anomaly in real life. We are solely talking about the portrayal of women in fiction. There seems to have been some minor confusion over this.

Otherwise, carry on. The discussion has become very interesting.


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## Alile (Aug 12, 2016)

What is strength to me, in particular what is strength in a woman.... I guess indeed some of these thoughts may be controversial and actually support our day's culture's gender norm. A norm in any culture tells you for example what is accepted behavior and considered normal within that culture. Obviously stepping outside of the norm has consequenses. 

So:
Biology.
Her physique is how she was born, the most beautiful baby girl her parents had ever seen; and then what she grew into. She learns to use her body to her advantage: be it in fights, socially; with enemies, friends and loved ones; or in subterfuge. There are so many combat techiques who rely on using your opponent's movements against her/him for example and a lot of creative, deadly weapons out there. But, if a smile and a bat of the eyelashes will do it, why not use that; if your character is a spy and a bit of cleavage will get her into a party to assasinate her target, wouldn't she be willing to do that for the greater good? If you have got it, flaunt it, many say. Feminism is also about the right to show a bit of boob/show off your toned upper body muscles if you are so inclined. (To coin down that word: Feminism is about *equal *rights and opportunities for everyone regardless of gender, age, religion or ethnicity).

A quick search on Google came up with many interesting things. A page claims you can divide personality traits into three categories;
    Actions
    Attitudes
    Behaviors you possess
This page then lists a whole lot of these traits, so I am giving you this link and will just type down which ones I think a strong female should have. Here it is, there are also negative personality traits down the list. Now I just ask myself how many traits I can pull off giving to a character! Examples of Personality Traits

Adaptability; and being able to think fast and make sound, quick decisions.
Courage to rely on her decisions, her opinions and thoughts and her beliefs and the courage to act.
(My favorite): Having the drive to always keep going. To do that I think you need a bit of optimism, motivation, strong will...

[Look, I have one thought that I think is important for any writer. It's a little off topic. Think of how often you're describing a character. "Anna was a kind and considerate sister." But can you describe her kindness without using the word kind? Can you decribe these people without using personality adjectives? I will give it a shot... "My sister Anna was older than me, but she used to sit next to my bed, mend my stockings by candlelight and sing to me before I went to sleep. We didn't have a lot of money for candles, and I was scared of the dark, but my sister never blew out our nightstand candle before I was alseep. When I got older and the terror of darkness wasn't so great anymore, likely because Anna made me feel safe and cared for, she told me her secret. So that mom wouldn't know, if she finished mending stockings, she would tie the knot and just pull the remaining thread through. Just going through the motions, singing softly. Even today I like sewing, especially embroidery. It makes me feel at peace, like my mind slows down and there is this comforting silence that only has room for an occational thought. I hope that was what my sister felt way back then too."
Okay, so that was just to try to convey what a kind and considerate sister might do (positive traits). Describing isn't the same as giving it a name. If you dont' have room for this maybe at least come up with a couple of kind actions of Anna the sister might have done as part of her history. Sorry for the going off the rails of this thread.]


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## Chessie (Aug 12, 2016)

I love that this topic comes up from time to time. It's not something that I really think about as I write. But maybe it should be.


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## Alile (Aug 12, 2016)

I think about it in my world creating and character making. I try to make conscious decicions about the culture, the norms in it and how I write about my female and male characters. I've written a few projects with different races, and I try to make them have a plausible history, culture and way of life that differs from eachother, including anything to do with gender and gender roles. 

If one writes for childen, teens, young adults I guess another thing to consider about female leads is that they may become a role model and that some young person out there will want to be just like her when they grow up. It's about what we want to pass down to future generations, what we value in a actually strong woman. 

After all this debate, maybe in order to create that character, all you have to do is create a person, a human being, a member of the human race, who is believably strong, and just so happens to be a girl.


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## Carolyn (Sep 2, 2016)

This is an interesting thought experiment. I think you may have inadvertently helped me  with a mythological question in my sci-fi in progress.
Thanks!



Alile said:


> Imagine say a world where everyone believed in a Goddess and her Son for 2000 years. How would things have been different? Then women would be created in the image of the Goddess, and so forth with all the implications of this other religion.


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## Miskatonic (Sep 2, 2016)

One problem I see, at least in movies and TV, is that we have these male action hero archetypes that they are just trying to put women into as if that's the answer to giving equal representation in a "strong" role. I guess if Arnold or Stallone can mow down countless bad guys with a machine gun or best them in hand to hand combat like the alpha males they are supposed to portray, we can just have a woman do the same, despite how awkward it appears when a barely over 5' tall woman that might weigh 110-115lbs is manhandling men that are 6'+, 200lbs+ as if they were children. In super hero movies this makes more sense because the characters usually have their physical abilities augmented via some power, but outside of that realm not so much. Maybe every once and awhile it works, but when it becomes this "anything you can do I can do better" type of childish mentality about trying to prove something it just does a disservice. 

One thing I remember about Sherlock Holmes is that despise him having a low opinion overall of women as far as intellectual beings go, the one woman that he did end up having an affinity for was the one who bested him at his own game and got away. It was the ultimate testament of his admiration for her that the only thing he kept as a reward after the case was solved was her portrait. In his awkward way he would only refer to her as "the woman", but deep down you knew that she was the only woman in the world he ever came closed to being in love with. She outwitted the master sleuth and did it with grace, that's all the story needed.


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## Trick (Sep 2, 2016)

My question is, is she a woman boxing other women or is she boxing men?

I ask because, if she is boxing other women, then clearly a female boxer is not an unheard of thing and, though your fictional society may seem to have negative views on women boxing, it clearly happens and there are fans or there would be no money for it to continue. This may be easier to write, though perhaps with the risk of being less interesting.

If she is boxing men, then you have a very different world than our own, which is totally fine and could be amazing to read, but it would create many more questions; or as I like to call them, opportunities to be awesome.


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## FifthView (Sep 2, 2016)

Miskatonic said:


> One problem I see, at least in movies and TV, is that we have these male action hero archetypes that they are just trying to put women into as if that's the answer to giving equal representation in a "strong" role.



What can make this even worse is when, after creating such a character, she'll be paired up with a female opponent while her male counterpart gets to fight the male bad guy.  I hate this.


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## Peat (Sep 2, 2016)

While echoing the whole "Just make her a human, fam" advice, I can see why the OP wants to avoid any echo of the stereotype of the "Strong Female Lead" and do not believe these two goals are mutually incompatible. 

... Huh, the site that must not be named doesn't actually have a page on this. Inconceivable!

For me, the big tropes of this sort of thing are

- Mostly hates feminine stuff but has one token feminine interest
- Is secretly insecure about how "unfeminine" she is
- As a result of said insecurity, is tough and hard as any man
- Everything is made right through the love of one good man


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## Ireth (Sep 2, 2016)

Peat said:


> ... Huh, the site that must not be named doesn't actually have a page on this. Inconceivable!



I believe this is the trope you're looking for: Action Girl - TV Tropes That or any of its subtypes.


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## Peat (Sep 2, 2016)

Ireth said:


> I believe this is the trope you're looking for: Action Girl - TV Tropes That or any of its subtypes.



I don't think that covers it. At best, its a view of the Strong Female Lead that hasn't heard there are any negative stereotypes attached.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Sep 2, 2016)

Why does everyone call TVTropes the site that must not be named?


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## glutton (Sep 2, 2016)

FifthView said:


> What can make this even worse is when, after creating such a character, she'll be paired up with a female opponent while her male counterpart gets to fight the male bad guy.  I hate this.



Or when the 'strong' female is presented as an equal or better to the male MC at first, but then turns out to be completely useless against a credible threat.


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## bdcharles (Sep 5, 2016)

Banten said:


> Hello everyone!
> This should be a more straightforward question then my previous one on the use of violence (great answers btw).
> 
> I have decided that I want a female boxer as a main character in a futuristic american fifties world. She should be a strong lead. However I abhor the stereotypical "strong" female character. Often these characters seem to not be strong at all and I can't figure out exactly why I feel that way.
> ...



If she has a functioning family life and so on, the risk is that she may be less interesting. But I understand you want to avoid the standard plug-in sympathy boxes while still giving her some spice. I think it might be a matter of just not giving her the normal set of human foibles but perhaps thinking of some different ones. In my WIPs I have a female character - she's not the lead but supporting, appearing in about the last third of story one and playing a larger role in story two. What's her jam? She is described as "little more than a vicious street thug" and she kills with impunity, largely because she finds it fun. I suppose you could say she has a personality disorder, and when she's not living out her assassin fantasies she becomes an unwed mother which she doesn't take to. The light sort of goes out in her eyes. The only time it comes back is when she's on the warpath again. 

She's one of the good guys, incidentally  Hope this helps


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## Darkfantasy (Sep 12, 2016)

I agree with the whole stereotype thing and it's a difficult balance to make. You want to make them emotionally strong but no so strong that they that have no empathy. They need to feel and sometimes there is this idea that feelings and showing equal weakness. I think it's good for a character to get knocked down. To feel the punch of something and have a little wallow (without whining) then get up, shake themselves off and go back to work. It's a good idea to study the types of characters you don't like, write down what you don't like about them and why. Collect data from other people. Then avoid giving your character those traits. 

I like characters who care about others/even just one person
Who are competent and use their skills to adapt to their surroundings and challenge. Every character should be an expert at something. Even if it's just being a really good loyal friend. 
Characters who make intelligent and logical moves
Characters who are active instead of reactive.
Clear goals and motivation that make sense. The character should always want something


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