# Gimme a Break: Join the Club



## Caged Maiden (Jun 15, 2015)

Hey Scribes, I'm making a club since I think our discussion on the Criticism thread got derailed (I admit to the derailment).  I however feel this is a great discussion and your responses bolster me--making me feel like I'm not alone.

If you're ready to publish and feel confident in your work, but just need a break, join the club.  Thank this post and get your membership benefits!

Your season pass to the Gimme a Break Club is an open invitation to get on board the aforementioned leaky boat.  Tell us what you do and what you want to do.  Support other writers who ARE good enough, but haven't found their opportunity.  Hell...rant and vent if you feel like it.  (Just don't be mean to anyone in the club)

We're all in this together and by joining the club, we can help each other the best way possible--with humorous and dramatic posts that make it not seem so bad.

Reserve your seat today!


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 15, 2015)

My first topic:  Bashing Your Head Against the Wall

We've all heard stories of great writers who persevered.  

Well while I'm not quite ready to sew all my rejection letters into a quilt that could keep Siberia warm, I've got a fair stack of them, and I'm most dejected that the few agents I really had in my sights rejected me after I carefully planned my submissions.  I wasn't randomly querying everyone and their mother, I conscientiously reached out to people who represent work exactly like what I have.  How disappointing.  So, after I check those names off my list, then what? 

It's become much less an exciting undertaking (sending out a query) and much more a dreaded event.  Like, when your mom calls you in the middle of the night and leaves a weepy voicemail ending with, "Can you call me back when you get this message?"  You WANT to call back, honest.  But the thought of doing it leaves you...well you know.  

That's how it's gotten, sending out queries.  I'm almost just clicking "send" expecting to hear "this project isn't right for us right now, but keep trying, and thanks for submitting to us."  AAK!!!  Why isn't it right for you?  Can't you tell me?  I'm thick-skinned.  I won't cry.  I just want to know WHY I'm not the right thing.

I've never been hurt by a rejection...well there was this one time.

I sent out a query to an agent I really wanted to work with.  She'd made a partial request on another novel a year earlier and I felt I botched the submission by sending a weak manuscript.  I just KNEW she'd respond favorably if I sent her my shinier, newer book.  So I did.  And it got a partial request again.  And a week later, it was rejected.  Okay, that bit didn't hurt.  What sort of stuck in my craw, was that I checked out her Twitter feed....and I felt her comment directed dead-center at my submission.  She said something like, "Why does a strong female lead have to be an assassin?" Which I found completely obtuse because several times in my opening, I mention my MC isn't a trained killer, just an old woman bent on revenge.

Now...it's entirely possible she was sent another book about a woman trying to kill someone in the first chapter, that week.  Hell, maybe three or four female assassins appeared in her inbox, driving her to make the comment.  I don't know, and I don't care.  The point was, I felt dismissed because of a character thing that maybe was/ maybe wasn't relevant or substantiated depending on how quickly she skimmed.  If it wasn't my book she was talking about, that's fine, but it doesn't smooth over the fact that someone got rejected out of hand because the agent didn't like that particular element, no matter how well it was done or whether it was a good story.  I think the fickleness is what startled me.  It opened my eyes to how small a detail might be, to supply a writer with a rejection.

With rejections coming in quicker, I halted all querying until I got some sort of clue what I am doing wrong.  Unfortunately, I'm no wiser today than apparently I was last year.  So there you go.  I'm confused and still no closer to wowing an agent, because with all my hand-picked agents checked off, I've gotta figure something else out right quick.  I need a contingency plan.  I just don't have the first clue what it should be.


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## PaulineMRoss (Jun 15, 2015)

Are you absolutely committed to going the agent/publisher route? Because if so, there's really nothing else for it but to take a deep breath, start compiling a list of second-tier agents and keep plugging away until someone bites.

If you're open to rethinking from the ground up, it may be time to consider self-publishing.

It does seem as if the rejections have dented your confidence. I'd recommend taking the first chapters of the book to an online critique group for analysis. I know you've posted some of it here, but I don't honestly feel that a forum thread is the ideal way to critique writing. I find it really difficult to do, anyway, so I rarely comment in the Showcase. Scribophile is works well for me, but there are others.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


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## cupiscent (Jun 15, 2015)

I do recommend querying more widely, Caged Maiden. I mean, query cleverly - do research and make sure the agent is likely to be interested in the sort of thing you write - but query widely. It increases your chances of hitting someone who's open to what you're doing right now. (Plus, you want to find someone who doesn't _have_ what you're doing, but someone who's looking for it. I remember seeing a quote from an agent - I can't find it again now, but I believe it was Barry Goldblatt saying, "Why would I want another Cassandra Clare? I already have one.")

You might be surprised who might be interested in your work. By which I don't mean "aim for a smaller agency": when I was querying, some of the agents I thought were excellent matches - agents actively building lists in my area - passed without apparent notice, but some big damn agents from big damn agencies requested fulls. (Yes, you could see my excitement from space.) Though in the end I had no offers, I did get some great feedback and invitations to submit future work to those agents, which gives me great hope for my next submission.

Pauline has some great advice. Polish your first chapters. Polish your query and synopsis. (I'm willing to take a look, but you probably want a variety of views. I recommend the query critique board at QueryTracker, though take their advice on "rules" with a grain of salt; each book is different, so is each query. But they're great for general punchiness.) Draw up a new list of interesting agents and keep trying.


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## Russ (Jun 15, 2015)

you might also wish to go to a conference or event where you can meet agents in person for the purpose of either pitching or learning to pitch/query.  While I read that stuff all the time, you can only go so far with written input, meeting some of those folks might make a big difference for you.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 15, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> but it doesn't smooth over the fact that someone got rejected out of hand because the agent didn't like that particular element, no matter how well it was done or whether it was a good story.  I think the fickleness is what startled me.  It opened my eyes to how small a detail might be, to supply a writer with a rejection.



Did you think they were judging work by something other than their own personal taste? Agents and editors all basically represent/pick up work based on whether or not they personally like it and think it's good. In a completely subjective medium that's all they have to go on. By querying agents and then having an agent submit to editors, you are basically giving two sets of individuals an opportunity to reject your work based on their personal opinions before it ever even gets in front of readers. You really should consider self publishing and letting readers decide for themselves whether your work is good enough.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 15, 2015)

Wow, thanks guys.

@ Pauline, I've gotten great reviews for the first four chapters on Scribophile, most of the people saying, something along the lines of "This is really good, what a pleasure to crit something polished".  I'm just not sure where to go to find active readers of my genre, because the work has been received well there and here...so...what else can I do?  I've had a number of betas that really didn't like it.  I've had a number of critters who really did.  I'm torn.  Do I change stuff to appeal more to certain readers?  

@ Cupiscent, I'd love another opinion.  I think my query is the worst part of the book.  I did all I can to make it short, but I have a large cast and a tricky story.  I often struggle with including the best bits.  While I consider myself a good query writer, this novel is trickier than most and that's been probably more challenging than I cared to admit to myself in the past.

@ Russ, I don't know whether I could pitch my book.  I'm not the most confident person, but my personality is magnetic.  Perhaps I need to suppress my anxiety over pitching a book and simply go to a convention and be friendly--that gets me pretty far--farther than anything I can manage in the manner of credentials.

@ Mythopoet, no I get it.  I just HOPED it wasn't my novel that scored that comment, because it was a complete snap judgement if it was.  It felt like the agent was just reading something into the text that wasn't even there, and that was the basis for the rejection.  Like I said, if it pertained to someone else's book, I can't argue, but if it was aimed at mine...it's just disappointing to feel like I've been scolded for something I didn't even do.  It just makes me wonder what I DO have to accomplish to get a chance. 

Thanks guys.  I'm not giving up, just switching modes again. This has been a defeating process and while my confidence is sagging, I just KNOW an agent would pick this story up if I got it to the right person.  People would read it...I think?  HA!


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## skip.knox (Jun 15, 2015)

Well, if you have not been submitted the same story for at least a year, it is too soon to quit. It's not too soon to despair--it's never too early for despair!--but as others have said, just keep collecting the rejections.

You are indeed bashing your head against a wall. I hate that phrase, at least as it applies to writers, because it implies there's something better one could do with one's head. There isn't. There's submit to agents. Oh, I suppose we could submit directly to publishers. That would be bashing your head against a _mountain_.

But you weren't looking for advice, were you? You were looking for commiseration. Perhaps I'm a little early to the club. I've had one short story accepted, one rejected, one self-published, which landed with all the splash of a pebble in a well. A well in a cavern. I'm not sure that brand of misery and despair is any better than the agent-inflicted one. 

For myself, I really admire your little boat, leaks and all. You don't know where the holes are until you put off from shore, right? Bail and row, comrade, bail and row!

I'm not sure we should expect an agent to tell us *why* we are rejected. If they do, happy dance, but if they don't, that doesn't lead to the moping mambo. I'll go further: I don't think we should even expect the agent to have a *good* reason why they reject us. They just did, that's all. A bad manuscript or a bad day. Sure, if it's the former it'd be great to know the details, because we are confident we can fix it (bail, row, patch; bail, row, patch), but agents deal with an inhuman amount of reading material. It's miracle they don't actively come gunning for authors. The only thing I'm going to assume from a rejection was that my manuscript was not so brilliant they could not possibly reject it even though they didn't have room for it and didn't know how to sell it. I can live with that. Heck, I suppose the converse is true as well: just because an agent accepts my work does not imply my work is salable, much less brilliant. It merely means that one person thought it was worth a shot.

Which I can also live with.


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## PaulineMRoss (Jun 15, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> @ Pauline, I've gotten great reviews for the first four chapters on Scribophile, most of the people saying, something along the lines of "This is really good, what a pleasure to crit something polished".  I'm just not sure where to go to find active readers of my genre, because the work has been received well there and here...so...what else can I do?  I've had a number of betas that really didn't like it.  I've had a number of critters who really did.  I'm torn.  Do I change stuff to appeal more to certain readers?



Oh, are you already on Scrib? Do you want to reveal your handle there, or is it secret?

If I read this right, you've had critiques on the opening chapters which were very positive. You've also had beta reports which were negative. 

Have you had beta reports which were positive? If you have, you're good to go. Stop tinkering, keep submitting (or self-publish, whatever suits you), and move on. 

If you haven't, then it's not the opening that's the problem, it's something in the rest of the story. But there may still be an argument to just stop tinkering and move on with the next book or project. It's never going to be perfect, so let it go.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 15, 2015)

Welcome Skip!!!! You and me, brother.  We're in it for the long haul in this awesome club!

@ Pauline I'm A. Howitt, same as my facebook author's page.  I'm not a secret, but I do try to present an undisclosed gender (just because I'm still paranoid I might not be successful writing grit as a woman), but that sort of isn't an issue since other people who know me have used my first name (Anita, by the way, since that's not a secret either).  I've followed some of your posts, and you really have your shit together.  I don't know whether you can look at my old critiques on Scrib, but they're at least four months old and while some I classified in the "didn't get it" category, most were really good, even from the folks that only read a later chapter without what came before it.  Sometimes that sort of left the overall "scoring" lower, but I chalked that up to them not having read anything before say chapter 3...so I dunno what more I could have expected.  Some of the comments were downright excitement for what I'm doing!


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## PaulineMRoss (Jun 15, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> @ Pauline I'm A. Howitt, same as my facebook author's page.  I'm not a secret, but I do try to present an undisclosed gender (just because I'm still paranoid I might not be successful writing grit as a woman), but that sort of isn't an issue since other people who know me have used my first name (Anita, by the way, since that's not a secret either).  I've followed some of your posts, and you really have your shit together.  I don't know whether you can look at my old critiques on Scrib, but they're at least four months old and while some I classified in the "didn't get it" category, most were really good, even from the folks that only read a later chapter without what came before it.  Sometimes that sort of left the overall "scoring" lower, but I chalked that up to them not having read anything before say chapter 3...so I dunno what more I could have expected.  Some of the comments were downright excitement for what I'm doing!



I had a quick look at them - they're quite a mixed bag, but that's usually what you want, some that zoom in on the detail and others that look at character development. And you always get one or two that delete every adverb, or don't realise what fantasy entails.

If you want another opinion, I'd be happy to look at the current version of your first four or five chapters and crit them, exactly as I would on Scrib. You can email me at [email protected]. I can't guarantee to add anything you're not already aware of, but it might help, you never know.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 15, 2015)

I'd appreciate that.  As a romance fantasy writer, you might be my target audience and I'd sure like to know whether I'm at least in the ballpark of what potential readers want.  I like a little more grit in my romance than most perhaps, but that's just what I prefer.  No idea whether readers will like it too.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jun 19, 2015)

CM,

Saw this & thought of you. A new agent looking for fantasy with romance.

http://www.writersdigest.com/editor...erary-agent-alert-moe-ferrara-of-bookends-llc


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## Philip Overby (Jun 20, 2015)

We've talked a bit about this off-site, but I think it's best to keep all options open. I agree with others that continuing to send out queries can't really hurt. I'm not entirely sure that a project has to be completely finished and published before you can start something else. I think being finished is preferable, but you can keep submitting queries for this novel as long as you want all while working on new things. It really comes down to what you envision for each book you write. If you also feel too much pressure doing everything (or paying for everything) yourself, which is what self-publishing entails, then I'd suggest researching it a lot more if you do it. However, if you plan to mostly stick to querying agent for now, I'd consume as much information about that as you can. I say wear your "publishing hat" and your "writing hat" alternately. This will allow you to pursue publishing options, but keep you happy working on new things.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 20, 2015)

@ Tim  New agents make me nervous.  I know it shouldn't matter, but to me it does...and remember, I'm a lady who just started a career and I KNOW it's hard.  Okay, so as a new agent myself (in real estate), I know I'm not good at it.  i'm heavily reliant on my fellow coworkers and my manager right now.  Luckily my first house I sold to a very motivated buyer...MY HUSBAND...so I got to experiment with the whole process on us first.  Signing things, filling out the contract, getting the counter-offer squared away, negotiating remediation on the property, finding a lender, compiling documents and getting those to the lender on time, and so much more.  The thing is, as a new agent, I will present myself as part of a unit that has a large part of the market and offers the best services, but I personally don't have the skills necessary to be a knowledgeable and competent agent yet.  Are Literary Agents the same or do they enter somewhere above the ground floor?  I mean, contacts are the name of the game, do they have more contacts than I do, starting off?  This deeply concerns me.  That's why I've never submitted to a new agent.  I specifically look for folks who have more than 5 years in the industry and 20 is way better in my mind.  Maybe I'm missing something, bu doing this?

What do you guys think?


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jun 20, 2015)

This is just opinion only, as I have never submitted to a new agent either. However, supposing a few points:

1) You've written and spoken to the new agent. She understands your goals and vision. She "gets" your story & thinks she can sell it. Finding someone you believe in that believes in you creates a team with potential. 

2) She's not completely new to the industry. She's worked as an agent or editor at a large firm. Now, she's at a smaller one or starting her own.

3) Her slush pile isn't massive yet. She'll not only be more likely to give your writing an opportunity as a reader, but she'll likely do the reading herself rather than have a slew of interns screening based off their own tastes. 

4) A smaller starting client list may mean he will work harder for your story. He doesn't have a backlist to rest his laurels upon. He doesn't have 100 clients clamoring for his divided attention every day. He has five, and he NEEDS to sell them to a publisher. In that way, he is similar to a first time writer. 

5) Supposing you've done your due diligence, and the above are true, what do you have to lose? Which is preferable, banging your head against the same brick wall, or looking for a guide to walk you around it? Even if that guide is a new guide, they probably know how to navigate that wall better than you. If that wasn't the case, you'd have no need for them & they wouldn't exist.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 20, 2015)

That's a good way to look at it.  I suppose the same can be said for a real estate agent.  Right now, I'd be one-on-one with clients and they would have my undivided attention, so I'd be more likely to go the extra mile for them.  Thanks!


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 20, 2015)

I sent her my query.


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## skip.knox (Jun 20, 2015)

Would you mind letting us know how it goes? Misery loves company, sure, but anxiety positively adores it.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 20, 2015)

sure.  I'm happy to talk about all my rejections, unfortunately it's usually just on my facebook page where I begin with "I sent out a query to so-and-so today." and later update "yep, rejected." for my friends.  I don't usually mention them here because there isn't a good place to do it, I'd have to begin a thread and all that.  So, it's mostly just on facebook, on my author page at A. Howitt if you want to like my page and get those updates.


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## cupiscent (Jun 21, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> Are Literary Agents the same or do they enter somewhere above the ground floor?  I mean, contacts are the name of the game, do they have more contacts than I do, starting off?



This depends a lot on the history of the agent in question and the style of the agency. A lot of agents I see who are "new" have been at the agency for years working as an assistant to an established agent (which I imagine being a lot like a mentorship) and are now working to establish their own list of clients. When I see a newer agent, I dig into history like that (it's often in their website bios, or if you google you see that they were an assistant at another agency, or worked in another area, like foreign rights - the Absolute Write water cooler is a great place to find history as well). I also look to see how established the agency is in that genre - whether senior agents also rep it - because I assume there will be a certain degree of contact-sharing. (It's in the interests of the agency as a whole to have lots of successful authors on their books.) So I'd probably only be nervous if a new agent was the only one at their agency who repped anything like my genre.

The flipside to that is of course that new agents are more likely to be taking on new clients.  They also often have much quicker turn-arounds, but not always, so checking QueryTracker is always a good idea.

Like TAS says, it's worth a try. If you get to phonecall / offer of rep stage, you can always ask questions about where the agent might try your work, what other sales they've made, what contacts they'll be making use of.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 21, 2015)

wow, all good info!  I never thought past the query phase, really, since that's where I am now.  It might behoove me to think ahead even further. I feel rather like getting a full request is my next goal, I haven't even thought about what would happen if someone actually liked my manuscript.


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