# Atheist... or Worshipper?



## SaltyDog (Aug 25, 2016)

I'm just curious about this topic, so I decided to see what other writers have decided to put in their own worlds.

Do you have magical immortal beings called gods?  Or do you only have one god?  Or none at all?  

I have a land of almost all atheists.  Why?  I don't know, I need to put in a backstory for that.  Only a few power hungry false prophets preaching nonsense are my religions, if they can even be called that.  There are no gods.  I didn't want to get into the big mess of religion, building history, laws and etc.  And I think it's adds a little difference and spice, no gods, only people controlling their own or others fate, not a god doing it.

Thanks,
Salty


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## Ireth (Aug 25, 2016)

Depends on the story.

In Winter's Queen, the MCs are humans from 21st century Earth, and they all are Christians; the Fae are basically demigods themselves, and don't worship their forefathers as such.

In Tenth Realm, the humans are Viking Age pagans (some worship the Norse gods, others worship the Celtic ones); same rules as above apply to the Fae.

In Low Road, the humans and vampires are mostly pagan, worshiping the Celtic gods; vampires typically revere Morrighan.

In Bellringer, there are varied beliefs. The humans and a few of the werewolves are Christian; other werewolves are pagan, worshiping either Luna, Hecate, or Diana/Artemis. Religious conflict is a huge part of the story.

In Song of the Sea, the merfolk worship a sea goddess, while the main (formerly) human character is Jewish.

In Moonhunter, the intelligent wolves worship the Moon, who blessed them with reason and speech. The Sun and the Night, also deities, are antagonistic to the wolves.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 25, 2016)

This is a good question to bring up. I think authors often avoid tackling religion because it's such a sensitive subject in the real world, and inventing religions can get complicated. The scenario you're describing (where everyone is atheist) is pretty common.

My world is mainly dominated by a totalitarian theocracy, so religion is quite a large part of it, though the religion was invented to control the masses. 

Outside of that, there's many various viewpoints on God or a god. there is this figure that is supposed to be the source of magic, usually depicted as feminine, but ideas on what she is like vary tremendously. Some believe in the vague idea of a creator God, others have stricter ideas of what said God is like, but there aren't any 'God-inspired' religious texts of any sort, or official doctrines. Most people suppose the world would need to have been created, but it doesn't go beyond that for many. There are also some outspoken atheists. On the other hand, there are some extremely strict cults and such, though not necessarily religious (mainly just a cult believing magic is evil).

Personally I'm intrigued by all the different ideas and beliefs that exist in the world and like to explore different religions and philosophies. I would like to carry some of that over into my stories. A story where characters actually ponder and debate religion would be refreshing and different.


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## Reaver (Aug 25, 2016)

Before this thread goes anywhere, I want to give all participants this friendly reminder:



Black Dragon said:


> While we welcome discussions on religion, all exchanges must be carried out in a spirit of mutual respect and genuine inquiry.
> 
> The cardinal rule is this: treat all religions with respect.
> 
> ...



I'll be checking this thread from time to time to ensure this guideline is followed to the letter.


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## SaltyDog (Aug 25, 2016)

Reaver said:


> Before this thread goes anywhere, I want to give all participants this friendly reminder:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be checking this thread from time to time to ensure this guideline is followed to the letter.



I meant no disrespect in this post, that's why I didn't even mention any religions of our world.  I was only curious of what the fantasy religions were.  I hope everyone only posts religions of fantasy and keeps it that way.


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## Steerpike (Aug 25, 2016)

I think societies without religion can be done well. They always raise questions in my mind in terms of how the situation arose, which I like to see addressed. In human history, religion, belief in magic and supernatural explanations, etc., often arose as a means of controlling those things that were not well-understood or subject to human control. As society progressed and our understanding grew, those things which could not be explained or at least placed in a general framework of understand shrank, and the role of religion, magic, mysticism, and what have you also shrank from those areas. 

Doesn't mean a fantasy society would have to evolve the same way, but I'd be interested in the author's framing of her society in a way that gives me some idea of why they didn't look at things that way in the distant, pre-technological past, and why society didn't evolve with the same sort of differentiation between the sphere of science or empiricism and the sphere of mysticism.


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## SaltyDog (Aug 25, 2016)

Both you guys,( DragonOfTheAerie and  Ireth)  Have some thought out religions, even if some are of our world, so thanks.  I only have one main religion, and it was created by one of my races from a different continent, and my story takes place in the other known continent, so there is knowledge of that religion, except it's not enough to play a big role in the story.  I have several characters make offhand remarks about gods, as if one had just controlled fate for or against the characters, but then they always say afterward that of course,  they are just stories and there are no such things as gods.  (For them at least.)

Which so far, no activity with an immortal being has taken place, and I might choose that the only religion be false.  It seems to me I could have fun working on that subject, building history and other stuff like that, whether the god is real or not.


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## Heliotrope (Aug 25, 2016)

This is an interesting topic! 

I'm fascinated with world religions and love including a variety of beliefs in my work. I feel that religion and superstitions add a lot of spice to a world.


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## SaltyDog (Aug 25, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> This is an interesting topic!
> 
> I'm fascinated with world religions and love including a variety of beliefs in my work. I feel that religion and superstitions add a lot of spice to a world.



As do I, but in my book, I have twelve different races, and so that's a lot of religions!  I went only with one though, as I have never created one before, and wanted to see how it would turn out.  Let's just say it needs more work.


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## Reaver (Aug 25, 2016)

SaltyDog said:


> I meant no disrespect in this post, that's why I didn't even mention any religions of our world.  I was only curious of what the fantasy religions were.  I hope everyone only posts religions of fantasy and keeps it that way.



You're doing just fine. My post wasn't directed at any one participant. It's a reminder for everyone participating in this thread.


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## Russ (Aug 25, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> This is a good question to bring up. I think authors often avoid tackling religion because it's such a sensitive subject in the real world, and inventing religions can get complicated. The scenario you're describing (where everyone is atheist) is pretty common.
> .



Odd.  We must be reading some different books.  I can't remember the last one I read where the majority of the population was atheist.

My WIP has a great deal of religion in it.  Part of that conflict (between religions) drives one of the major subplots.


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## SaltyDog (Aug 25, 2016)

Reaver said:


> You're doing just fine. My post wasn't directed at any one participant. It's a reminder for everyone participating in this thread.



Lol ok, I was just like "Oh crap, I started this!  What should I do?"
thanks


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## SaltyDog (Aug 25, 2016)

Russ said:


> Odd.  We must be reading some different books.  I can't remember the last one I read where the majority of the population was atheist.
> 
> My WIP has a great deal of religion in it.  Part of that conflict (between religions) drives one of the major subplots.



Mistborn?  Wheel of Time?  Eragon?  Lord of the Rings?  Correct me on that one I'm not so sure about it, haven't read it an ages.  Just a few I could think of the top of my head.  A lot I have read do have gods and the like, but a lot don't have it as well.  But it does show everyone does have different ideas and opinions for this discussion and how they incorporate religion into their stories, or if they even have it at all.


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 25, 2016)

I've got the opposite of all atheists, all peoples believe in gods because... they're real, and they don't like each other very much, LOL. Not that everything their followers teach is correct! heh heh. And the gods have been banished from the world, physically, but they can make spiritual contact. While every religion has its own creation myth, there is one true one for the world, it's just almost nobody knows this truth. And there is no religion with an omniscient/omnipotent god... per se. Any similarity between these religions and those of Earth are coincidental, which of course can present some issues... such as the use of virgin in a religious context will have an immediate connection to Mary for any Christian, or any familiar with that tradition. This can set one's nerves on edge when varied cultures use virgin in conjunction with derogatory words, LOL. But the goddess linked to the word virgin is one nasty lady, who murdered her father and his mortal lover, before killing her step-mom. 

Religion is a prime player in all stories set in this world.

This gets insanely complicated, I have the basic premise for each culture's religion, but I only flesh out each as I need them.

Also, not all religions are equal or of the same style... but that all get complicated too.


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## Reaver (Aug 25, 2016)

Steerpike said:


> I think societies without religion can be done well. They always raise questions in my mind in terms of how the situation arose, which I like to see addressed. In human history, religion, belief in magic and supernatural explanations, etc., often arose as a means of controlling those things that were not well-understood or subject to human control. As society progressed and our understanding grew, those things which could not be explained or at least placed in a general framework of understand shrank, and the role of religion, magic, mysticism, and what have you also shrank from those areas.
> 
> Doesn't mean a fantasy society would have to evolve the same way, but I'd be interested in the author's framing of her society in a way that gives me some idea of why they didn't look at things that way in the distant, pre-technological past, and why society didn't evolve with the same sort of differentiation between the sphere of science or empiricism and the sphere of mysticism.



What if within that particular fantasy world there is no creation mythos or even a curiosity of why anything exists? I'm talking about the absence of scientific and philosophical thought.  In my opinion, it's not too far fetched (especially in fantasy fiction) to have a race of beings who simply don't think about existence the way we do. 

In other words, they and all the other things that make up their world simply exist because they just do.


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## Holoman (Aug 25, 2016)

I'm not sure if my story is "original" or not, but I took a slightly different take on religion than what I've read before in fantasy.

In my world there is no real religion to start. The powerful magicians are worshipped as gods but they aren't immortal. There are many superstitions but not actual god figures like Zeus or Thor that are worshipped, just people that believe in a sort of "mother nature" religion.

Anyway, that is how it starts, but as my series progresses, it actually focuses somewhat on a monotheistic religion that spreads from the grass roots, by a prophet and his sons and daughters that spreads the word, all done without violence, similar to the rise of early Christianity (although none of it is really described in detail in the story, that would be a bit boring). My main characters use it at points in the story and some are devout followers of it.

There is no religious establishment, or church per se, beyond the prophet and people that are teacher figures in communities.

It isn't really a central component of the story but is interlinked in a lot of the characters' motivations and beliefs. And the prophet becomes an important character in one of the books.

The closest mirror in the real world I think would be Christianity pre-Constantine, except they aren't persecuted as there are no other religions really.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 25, 2016)

Russ said:


> Odd.  We must be reading some different books.  I can't remember the last one I read where the majority of the population was atheist.
> 
> My WIP has a great deal of religion in it.  Part of that conflict (between religions) drives one of the major subplots.



Hmm...Well...

I think when fantasy writers use religion in their stories, they tend to use polytheism or animism or a very vague monotheistic religion. Everyone seems to stay well away from anything resembling major world religions, or developing morality and theology too deeply. Typically the focus in fiction is on rituals and such rather than on actual beliefs. 

At least, that's what I seem to be seeing.


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## Ireth (Aug 25, 2016)

SaltyDog said:


> Mistborn?  Wheel of Time?  Eragon?  Lord of the Rings?  Correct me on that one I'm not so sure about it, haven't read it an ages.  Just a few I could think of the top of my head.  A lot I have read do have gods and the like, but a lot don't have it as well.  But it does show everyone does have different ideas and opinions for this discussion and how they incorporate religion into their stories, or if they even have it at all.



LOTR's characters are not atheists. They (especially elves) revere the Valar, powerful angelic spirits serving under Iluvatar, the Creator. This is expanded upon mostly in the Silmarillion, but LOTR does have several mentions of Elbereth (one of the chief Valar) as a figure of reverence.


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## SaltyDog (Aug 25, 2016)

Reaver said:


> What if within that particular fantasy world there is no creation mythos or even a curiosity of why anything exists? I'm talking about the absence of scientific and philosophical thought.  In my opinion, it's not too far fetched (especially in fantasy fiction) to have a race of beings who simply don't think about existence the way we do.
> 
> In other words, they and all the other things that make up their world simply exist because they just do.



That would make sense, or I would take it as an explanation for why there are only atheists in a story.  That's a good point.


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## SaltyDog (Aug 25, 2016)

Ireth said:


> LOTR's characters are not atheists. They (especially elves) revere the Valar, powerful angelic spirits serving under Iluvatar, the Creator. This is expanded upon mostly in the Silmarillion, but LOTR does have several mentions of Elbereth (one of the chief Valar) as a figure of reverence.



lol knew it.  Sorry everybody, I'm more of a Wheel of Time fan.

With that, they do refer to the Dark one, and the creator.  That could actually be taken as gods, so my argument there kinda falls apart.  Bu the characters don't believe in a god, gods, so I'm half right?


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## Steerpike (Aug 25, 2016)

LOTR et al. may not have atheists, but they don't dwell a lot on religion, from what I can recall. Tolkien does more of that in the Silmarillion.


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## Steerpike (Aug 25, 2016)

Reaver said:


> What if within that particular fantasy world there is no creation mythos or even a curiosity of why anything exists? I'm talking about the absence of scientific and philosophical thought.  In my opinion, it's not too far fetched (especially in fantasy fiction) to have a race of beings who simply don't think about existence the way we do.
> 
> In other words, they and all the other things that make up their world simply exist because they just do.



Yes, I think that would work fine, and all it would take was the author establishing that these are how the people are and I don't think anyone would have a problem with it. I certainly wouldn't.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 25, 2016)

Reaver said:


> What if within that particular fantasy world there is no creation mythos or even a curiosity of why anything exists? I'm talking about the absence of scientific and philosophical thought.  In my opinion, it's not too far fetched (especially in fantasy fiction) to have a race of beings who simply don't think about existence the way we do.
> 
> In other words, they and all the other things that make up their world simply exist because they just do.



That would be a large divergence from human nature. I think it's somehow ingrained in us to seek out something higher than ourselves, even if that is just a noble ideal, or a system of morality, or the potential of the human race itself. It's also ingrained in us to wonder, why? how? what if...? To be curious about the natural world, and try to understand it. Or even to notice the natural world and see it as fascinating or beautiful or really anything other than surroundings we live in...it's a very human thing to do. 

It would be totally foreign, and difficult to relate to.


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## Holoman (Aug 25, 2016)

SaltyDog said:


> Mistborn?  Wheel of Time?  Eragon?  Lord of the Rings?  Correct me on that one I'm not so sure about it, haven't read it an ages.  Just a few I could think of the top of my head.  A lot I have read do have gods and the like, but a lot don't have it as well.  But it does show everyone does have different ideas and opinions for this discussion and how they incorporate religion into their stories, or if they even have it at all.



In Mistborn the Lord Ruler was worshipped as a god and he had a huge religion following him. 

LOTR has no established religion, but it goes into the subject heavily outside that series and hints at it in LOTR. Illuvitar (sp?) is God, and Gandalf is resurrected by a virtual god when he returns as Gandalf the White.

Not read the other two.


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## Russ (Aug 25, 2016)

SaltyDog said:


> Mistborn?  Wheel of Time?  Eragon?  Lord of the Rings?  Correct me on that one I'm not so sure about it, haven't read it an ages.  Just a few I could think of the top of my head.  A lot I have read do have gods and the like, but a lot don't have it as well.  But it does show everyone does have different ideas and opinions for this discussion and how they incorporate religion into their stories, or if they even have it at all.



I confess to not having read wheel of time.  But I recall religion in both LOTR and Mistborn.  I think I recall some in the inheritance cycle as well...but it has been quite a while.


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## Reaver (Aug 25, 2016)

SaltyDog said:


> That would make sense, or I would take it as an explanation for why there are only atheists in a story.  That's a good point.



Thanks. Beings like what I described wouldn't even be atheists. They wouldn't be anything. They would just "be".


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## Russ (Aug 25, 2016)

Reaver said:


> What if within that particular fantasy world there is no creation mythos or even a curiosity of why anything exists? I'm talking about the absence of scientific and philosophical thought.  In my opinion, it's not too far fetched (especially in fantasy fiction) to have a race of beings who simply don't think about existence the way we do.
> 
> In other words, they and all the other things that make up their world simply exist because they just do.




That would make for an interesting read.  I would suspect such a race would not progress very far scientifically, culturally etc because they would seem to lack the intense curiosity found in humans.


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## Steerpike (Aug 25, 2016)

Reaver said:


> Thanks. Beings like what I described wouldn't even be atheists. They wouldn't be anything. They would just "be".



True. If it's just not something that occurs to them given how they're wired, then I think you could argue that they're not atheists in that they don't even consider the proposition. It would interesting to play out the ramifications to society as a whole, the advancement of sciences (if in fact there is any at all) and so on. Could make for a cool story.


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## Reaver (Aug 25, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> That would be a large divergence from human nature. I think it's somehow ingrained in us to seek out something higher than ourselves, even if that is just a noble ideal, or a system of morality, or the potential of the human race itself. It's also ingrained in us to wonder, why? how? what if...? To be curious about the natural world, and try to understand it. Or even to notice the natural world and see it as fascinating or beautiful or really anything other than surroundings we live in...it's a very human thing to do.
> 
> It would be totally foreign, and difficult to relate to.



For some perhaps. If one were inclined to create fantasy worlds that mirror our own, I can see the merit in that point of view. The worlds I try to create are so far removed from our reality that what I described is completely feasible. 

It all depends on the reader's willingness to suspend disbelief.


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## FifthView (Aug 25, 2016)

Russ said:


> Odd.  We must be reading some different books.  I can't remember the last one I read where the majority of the population was atheist.



I agree.  Religion seems to appear in all the books I read, although sometimes it doesn't receive much focus and other times it's "disorganized," i.e. no organized religion but merely systems of belief about the nature of the world/reality.

Fantasy is peculiar because various types of fantasy introduce beings with great power.  If gods, goddesses, immortals, and the like exist...I think that having some form of religion would be a logical result.  If the powerful beings are merely humans (mages and the like) or monsters, I could still see some form of worship–although maybe the way _worship_ rather than religion, per se, manifests would be unusual (i.e., not Earth-based).

In my current project, I've settled on the idea that different lands and different peoples have different belief systems centering around magic, some of those are religions, but all of them have as their origin a single source.  The peoples in these lands don't realize that the god/force/essence behind their own belief system is the same thing behind the belief systems of other lands.


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## SaltyDog (Aug 25, 2016)

With the Inheritance cycle, only the dwarves believed in religion.  I haven't read LOTR in awhile, and don't worship it, so I probably shouldn't of mentioned it.  The Mistborn, at the start, I believe the characters didn't believe in a god, or the lord ruler.  He was found out to be not immortal, and not a god.  

 Sorry if these posts offended anyone, they did not mean to.


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 25, 2016)

SaltyDog said:


> Mistborn?  Wheel of Time?  Eragon?  Lord of the Rings?  Correct me on that one I'm not so sure about it, haven't read it an ages.  Just a few I could think of the top of my head.  A lot I have read do have gods and the like, but a lot don't have it as well.  But it does show everyone does have different ideas and opinions for this discussion and how they incorporate religion into their stories, or if they even have it at all.



Mistborn... never read, but a quick search suggests religion exists. I know Sanderson doesn't shy from religion in his fantasy, at least from listening to his lectures.

Tolkien clearly avoided "religion" in a fantasy world being a good catholic, but religious themes? Yeah. Absolutely.

Eragon... never read, but sounds like the trilogy goes into some religion, dwarves being polytheistic? 

WoT... I only read three books and so long ago I don't recall a danged thing... I'm not a fan. But, while mostly lacking religion, it seems form a search that religion plays some small part.

The trick is, what does the story and its world need?


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## Reaver (Aug 25, 2016)

Steerpike said:


> True. If it's just not something that occurs to them given how they're wired, then I think you could argue that they're not atheists in that they don't even consider the proposition. It would interesting to play out the ramifications to society as a whole, the advancement of sciences (if in fact there is any at all) and so on. Could make for a cool story.



Indeed. I'll even venture further to posit that science and philosophy could not only exist but flourish in a world like that.


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## SaltyDog (Aug 25, 2016)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Mistborn... never read, but a quick search suggests religion exists. I know Sanderson doesn't shy from religion in his fantasy, at least from listening to his lectures.
> 
> Tolkien clearly avoided "religion" in a fantasy world being a good catholic, but religious themes? Yeah. Absolutely.
> 
> ...



Correct with the dwarves.  Mistborn did have religious themes, (I haven't finished the series yet so I'm probably lacking in there) but at the start, I think the characters were atheists.  Lol I probably shouldn't of even mentioned theses books.  Most of these I did say do have both atheists and believers of a religion.


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## Reaver (Aug 25, 2016)

Russ said:


> That would make for an interesting read.  I would suspect such a race would not progress very far scientifically, culturally etc because they would seem to lack the intense curiosity found in humans.



Assuming that A) humans exist in this world B) if they did they're like us and C) that a belief in some sort of deity is necessary to have intense curiosity.


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## Chessie (Aug 25, 2016)

My world is based on 15th century Russian culture...so one God it is and I wouldn't write it any other way. There are no strong religious messages or anything like that. But if we're creating real worlds, then there needs to be some sort of belief system to make characters rounded.


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## Russ (Aug 25, 2016)

Reaver said:


> Assuming that A) humans exist in this world B) if they did they're like us and C) that a belief in some sort of deity is necessary to have intense curiosity.



I think the argument goes the other way.

I don't suggest religion is necessary to have intense curiosity.

I suggest intense curiosity makes religion, science, etc more likely.  The drive to understand things, to put them in a context makes us ask the bigger questions about why things exist and how they came to be.

I think that is our hyper-curiosity that leads us to be ask questions like "where did we come from?" and "why are we here?" which can lead to the great finds of both science and religion.

If people are just to content to "be" and not think about such things, it seems what they really lack is curiosity rather than religion or science.

I didn't mean to suggest that humans had to exist in said world, rather that one of the characteristics of humans that has lead them to great achievements in science etc is their inherent curiosity.  I think any race that lacked it would not progress as fast.


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## Russ (Aug 25, 2016)

Reaver said:


> Indeed. I'll even venture further to posit that science and philosophy could not only exist but flourish in a world like that.




I have no doubt that science and philosophy could flourish in such a world, but I would suggest there is no reason to believe it would flourish more than a world with religion, such as ours.


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## Steerpike (Aug 25, 2016)

Russ said:


> I have no doubt that science and philosophy could flourish in such a world, but I would suggest there is no reason to believe it would flourish more than a world with religion, such as ours.



Excepting periods in history where, because of encroachment into the sphere of religion, science is seen as a threat and there is an force actively opposing its progress. A society without out any religious conception whatsoever might not have these periods of stagnation.


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## Reaver (Aug 25, 2016)

Russ said:


> I didn't mean to suggest that humans had to exist in said world, rather that one of the characteristics of humans that has lead them to great achievements in science etc is their inherent curiosity.  I think any race that lacked it would not progress as fast.



Good points. I believe that anything is possible in fantasy. A being can be content with simply existing and still have curiosity about the world around them.


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## Reaver (Aug 25, 2016)

Russ said:


> I have no doubt that science and philosophy could flourish in such a world, but I would suggest there is no reason to believe it would flourish more than a world with religion, such as ours.







Steerpike said:


> Excepting periods in history where, because of encroachment into the sphere of religion, science is seen as a threat and there is an force actively opposing its progress. A society without out any religious conception whatsoever might not have these periods of stagnation.



Both valid points.  It all depends on the skill of the writer and the reader's willingness to suspend disbelief.


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## FifthView (Aug 25, 2016)

Steerpike said:


> Excepting periods in history where, because of encroachment into the sphere of religion, science is seen as a threat and there is an force actively opposing its progress. A society without out any religious conception whatsoever might not have these periods of stagnation.



Well this is all speculative, because we know of no such world! 

So it could go either way in fiction and still make an interesting world.

I do NOT want to interject any sort of commentary on religion in our own world, or science for that matter, and especially not these two things together in a battle to the death...but broadly stated, Nietzsche thought that intellectual progress in our world, including in science, required 3 or 4 great errors in thought.  (One place he says it's 3, another he says it's 4.)  The general gist was that being wrong can sometimes help us to advance.  I'd like to think of it in metaphorical terms and say that ignorance can sometimes be a great aid to progress–that even despite how wrong we are, the natural tendency is to keep taking steps forward until Lo!  and Behold! we actually have progressed into the future.  Perhaps we are sometimes better off stumbling forward than a) knowing where we are going and b) always going there.



SaltyDog said:


> I'm just curious about this topic, so I decided to see what other writers have decided to put in their own worlds.
> 
> Do you have magical immortal beings called gods?  Or do you only have one god?  Or none at all?
> 
> ...



I think it's not necessary to go all-out creating a complex religion with complex laws resulting from it and a complex history supporting it.

Plus, not all religions are organized religions.

You can sometimes just imagine how the people feel about your world and create simple beliefs that express their thoughts about the world.  Things like (to borrow from our world) "Fortune favors the bold!" express a belief.  What if most people in a culture thought that way?  Would this be a "religion," of a sort?  At least, a system of belief?

I think that having a rich cultural tapestry is possible without worrying about who/what gets worshipped and why.


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## Malik (Aug 25, 2016)

The people in my world don't have an organized religion, at least not one that plays a role in politics. However, they do acknowledge that there are higher powers at play. The general gist of things is that the gods are busy running everything and have no time to take second jobs as short-order cooks. Prayer is viewed as a waste of time. Giving thanks is encouraged, but asking favors is gauche.

People generally pray to the deceased -- family members, loved ones, fallen comrades -- with the idea that these souls are now watching over them. (They also don't have a hell the way we know it; they see the afterlife as a big family reunion and nothing to be afraid of -- it's the painful and messy act of dying that keeps them rightfully cautious.) They're a deeply practical people and they know that it does no good to pray to a god who doesn't always listen. Plus, if the gods are busy making things happen, it's bad form and likely unwise to inconvenience them for personal affairs. For them, asking a god to directly intervene on your behalf would be the equivalent of someone here conjuring a demon to make something happen in their personal life. I would think the last thing you'd want in that scenario would be success . . .


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## Reaver (Aug 25, 2016)

FifthView said:


> Well this is all speculative, because we know of no such world!



Creating unknown worlds is certainly my goal when I write.


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## evolution_rex (Aug 25, 2016)

I wouldn't write a fantasy with atheistic societies, I'd save it for science fiction. To believe in a god or gods sounds much more reasonable in world where fantastical and magical things happen. I may include some atheistic themes though, and I don't like the idea of making gods literal beings that people know exist.

But depending on the future I want to portray, I would include a mostly-atheist world in a sci-fi.


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## Steerpike (Aug 25, 2016)

Reaver said:


> Creating unknown worlds is certainly my goal when I write.



Yes. The great thing about this from a writer's perspective is that none of it is really falsifiable. We have our own world, n=1. You can expand that out looking at various cultures, but we're still dealing with the same modern humans, wired in the same way. The author has almost limitless bounds, so long as they can construct a coherent framework to make everything hang together.


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## Reaver (Aug 25, 2016)

Steerpike said:


> Yes. The great thing about this from a writer's perspective is that none of it is really falsifiable. We have our own world, n=1. You can expand that out looking at various cultures, but we're still dealing with the same modern humans, wired in the same way. The author has almost limitless bounds, so long as they can construct a coherent framework to make everything hang together.



Most assuredly. I've yet to make a world like that. Building that framework would be challenging but a lot of fun. 
All of my writings thus far have worlds with either polytheism, monotheism or a combination of the two.


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## Russ (Aug 25, 2016)

Steerpike said:


> Excepting periods in history where, because of encroachment into the sphere of religion, science is seen as a threat and there is an force actively opposing its progress. A society without out any religious conception whatsoever might not have these periods of stagnation.



Quite true (although in modern pop culture these are portrayed as more frequent and serious than history actually teaches).

However in the non-religious world there would also be many obstacles to scientific progress.  Much opposition to scientific progress has come from other interests than religious, such as economic interests, or even other scientific interests.  Many of Darwin's most vocal, and effective opponents were other scientists.  The same can be found at many other moments in scientific history.

For one example, it was the work of Lord Kelvin, in physics that almost torpedoed Darwinism before it got rolling:

http://rhig.physics.wayne.edu/~sean/Sean/Course_information_files/kelvinsunF.pdf


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## Reaver (Aug 25, 2016)

Valid argument but let's try to keep real-world examples to a minimum. When I write, I'm often guided by Occam's Razor.


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## FifthView (Aug 25, 2016)

Russ said:


> or even other scientific interests.  Many of Darwin's most vocal, and effective opponents were other scientists.  The same can be found at many other moments in scientific history.



Yeah, you could create the Gryffindor School of Physics, the Slytherin School of Chemistry, the Ravenclaw School of Genetics, and the Hufflepuff School of Biology and have them go to war.

Might have to change the names.

Edit:  Actually, that would be pretty cool.  A fantasy that features warring factions of scientific disciplines, no magic, but maybe some oddball scientific fields...


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## Steerpike (Aug 25, 2016)

These are all possibilities that are good to be aware of, but when you're creating your fantasy world there is nothing that says there is only one way a society can evolve. Even with a religious society, you don't _have_ to show them in conflict with science. It's just one possible way to go about it, reflective of our own history.


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## Reaver (Aug 25, 2016)

Steerpike said:


> These are all possibilities that are good to be aware of, but when you're creating your fantasy world there is nothing that says there is only one way a society can evolve. Even with a religious society, you don't _have_ to show them in conflict with science. It's just one possible way to go about it, reflective of our own history.



So true. Rules limit creativity.  My fantasy worlds are about escapism. If I want fantasy that mirrors this world, I can turn on the TV.


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## Russ (Aug 25, 2016)

Reaver said:


> So true. Rules limit creativity.  My fantasy worlds are about escapism. If I want fantasy that mirrors this world, I can turn on the TV.



Sure I don't disagree about the value of fantasy.  But is not the real joy or art of thought experiments or world building achieved by changing some variable in a world to make it different than ours and then rationally discovering what those changes might mean?

Or is it all just for the "ohs" and "ahs"?

One of the great exemplars of the first approach would be Dune oddly enough.


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## Reaver (Aug 25, 2016)

Russ said:


> Sure I don't disagree about the value of fantasy.  But is not the real joy or art of thought experiments or world building achieved by changing some variable in a world to make it different than ours and then rationally discovering what those changes might mean?
> 
> Or is it all just for the "ohs" and "ahs"?
> 
> One of the great exemplars of the first approach would be Dune oddly enough.



There is no right or wrong approach. I'm stating my opinion, not facts. We all have our opinions about what makes good fantasy and that's the great thing about it. 

It's all up to the individual writer. I choose not to limit myself too much. Nice jab citing Dune. I read Dune once. Kind of a bore. I respect Frank Herbert for how extensive the world he created is. He's the Tolkien of science fiction.

 I like the quote that's in my signature because I'm a huge fan of the 1984 film.


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## psychotick (Aug 25, 2016)

Hi,

For me in fantasy (epic at least) any society that had no gods / no religion would not ring true. Every society that has ever existed on Earth that we have knowledge of, has some form of faith. It's part of the human condition. That doesn't mean that all members of those societies believe in that particular faith or even that some don't reject it. It just means that the society being conceived of would be vastly different to anything we know of.

To add to that as Russ has said, a society that never develops a religion of some sort, probably lacks something in their very nature. Curiosity. But let's put this into perspective. Where does religion come from? Science too? Probably philosophy? All of it begins in questions. Who are we? Where did we come from? What happens when we die? Is this all we are? A society that has never developed any sort of faith surely hasn't asked these questions - and what sort of people don't ask these questions? Who doesn't wonder about life, the universe and everything? And so I would be sitting there reading that book and wondering - who are these people? What's wrong with them? And if they don't ask these questions, what other questions don't they ask?

As for technological progress, actually while there have been things like the dark ages and periods where science and religion have clashed, overall, religion has been the genesis of scientific enquiry. Its supporter and main driver. Without it the world would be a very much more backwards place.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Steerpike (Aug 25, 2016)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> For me in fantasy (epic at least) any society that had no gods / no religion would not ring true. Every society that has ever existed on Earth that we have knowledge of, has some form of faith. It's part of the human condition.



But of course your story doesn't have to be set on Earth (though it can be), doesn't have to involve humans - and if it does, not humans who are identical to us (though it may). The idea of throwing a necessary limitation on a fantasy world based on some aspect of the real world doesn't make much sense to me. But them in if you want, but don't be compelled to. Just be internally consistent.


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## FifthView (Aug 25, 2016)

Steerpike said:


> The idea of throwing a necessary limitation on a fantasy world based on some aspect of the real world doesn't make much sense to me.



It makes sense to me in a vague way.  I mean I could choose to write a novel in an entirely fictional language but I'm not sure it would get much traction.  General point:  A significant factor in enjoyment is recognition.  We love the odd _and_ the familiar.

But that says nothing about which factors should be familiar.

Sometimes in these discussions we start out with a question seeking a personal opinion, revolving around individual taste and what we do in our very particular individual projects, and we end up debating what are and what are not the rules. 

So to avoid that, I accept that your observation relates to your sense of the matter, whole-heartedly!


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## Peat (Aug 25, 2016)

In a way, fantasy is a genre I can see as having a country of atheists easier than any other. Sufficiently advanced magic may well answer all their questions about reality. Or maybe give them such big egos that they think there's no gods other than themselves.

Personally I love playing with religion and myth so its never occurred to me to do so.


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## TheKillerBs (Aug 25, 2016)

Two things. The first is that a species with zero curiosity would have a mindset that would be truly alien to a human's. Would a character of such a species even be relatable?

The second is that much has been made of theistic religion, but atheistic religions are still an option and, at least in Western fantasy, underrepresented. Although my setting tends more toward theistic religion, so I guess I'm just being somewhat hypocritical lol.


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## Oomatu (Aug 25, 2016)

In my novel "Islandfall", there are gods... per se. They are called Beings, and each stands for an individual virtue pivotal to the culture of the Islanders (patience, valor, humility, etc.) A good portion of the book toys with the idea of freewill, destiny, and decision... how much power do the Beings have over fate. In face, a good portion of the story is not about whether the Beings exist, but how much control they actually have.  Different races in the book hold different Beings in higher stature, and focus on cultivating the value he/she teaches. There are some to worship none, or all of the Beings... but there is no real argument whether they exist. 

Thought the reality of the Beings is much different than the Islanders perceive, their influence on their cultures in undeniable. 

Ultimately, there is a singular god-figure in the book who's motives are undeterminable. She/he/it is the source of all creation, Beings and mortals alike. Destiny is just a way of prophesying one outcome, an outcome that can be swayed with free-will.


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## Miskatonic (Aug 26, 2016)

Polytheism is the main type of religious practice in my story and atheism doesn't really exist, in the same way it wouldn't exist to those in the classical tales of Greek mythology, since the proof of the gods being real is pretty evident.

The biggest contrast in the human world is the notion of whether the gods are pro mankind or against mankind. Some religious orders believe the gods (or at least certain gods) care about the welfare of mankind and are their protectors, while others believe that they have sort of an original sin type element and thus people exist as a means to live a life trying to find redemption in the eyes of the gods. So glass half full vs glass half empty.


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## Gurkhal (Aug 26, 2016)

I prefer my worlds to be religious but I mostly try to base them fairly strict on historical socities when I can.


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## Creed (Aug 26, 2016)

I'm in favour of more godless religions in fantasy, or "atheistic religions." I find them so fascinating, and it can be hard to get into pantheons or the monotheistic model. My favourite fantasy religion is without a doubt that of the Qun. Check it out! 

One ancient race in my universe possesses the biological drive to destroy, and as such only worships a principle they call _Terminus_. It's shaped their entire culture, and in many many ways has drove them near extinction, a state which they find tragic, but also one that fills them with ecstasy.

Another major atheistic religion in this universe combines ancestor worship and astrology. They worship _Sea and Sky_ and honour their ancestors, who have the only active role in the religion and can change the course of fates. Some Yoruba/Taoist/Buddhist influences there.

There's also _Night Worship_ and _Katoan Dust Worship_ on a different world. Spirits are part of the mix, too.


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## Chessie (Aug 26, 2016)

But why would they be atheist? Isn't it human nature to question everything in the universe? I don't see hard science being present in fantasy unless it's Steampunk or Sci Fi and then that would make sense. Just my thoughts tho'.


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## Miskatonic (Aug 26, 2016)

Chesterama said:


> But why would they be atheist? Isn't it human nature to question everything in the universe? I don't see hard science being present in fantasy unless it's Steampunk or Sci Fi and then that would make sense. Just my thoughts tho'.



You're making the assumption that questioning existence will always lead to the concept of a higher power in the form of a god or something along those lines. When it comes to fantasy worlds and fantasy creatures who's to say what conclusions they might arrive at?


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## Chessie (Aug 26, 2016)

Well, I completely disagree because history...

Let's look back all the way to ancient civilizations who had some sort of religious/faith system in place. Sure, there have been always been atheists but I can't think of one atheist society in history. Fantasy worlds are different so yes, I'll give you that. But if we're basing cultures from real world ones then it makes no sense to me. But to each their own.


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## Reaver (Aug 26, 2016)

Chesterama said:


> Well, I completely disagree because history...
> 
> Let's look back all the way to ancient civilizations who had some sort of religious/faith system in place. Sure, there have been always been atheists but I can't think of one atheist society in history. Fantasy worlds are different so yes, I'll give you that. But if we're basing cultures from real world ones then it makes no sense to me. But to each their own.



There have been and still are many Buddhist societies. While not technically atheist (at least by modern definitions of that word) Buddhists do not worship a higher power or deity. 

It's a Shramic religion which literally means self help. They believe that karma/deeds/conduct is responsible for spiritual well being, not a higher power or deity. A common misconception is that Buddhists worship Buddha. This is categorically false. They revere him, try to emulate him but they don't worship him.


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## SaltyDog (Aug 26, 2016)

Reaver said:


> There have been and still are many Buddhist societies. While not technically atheist (at least by modern definitions of that word) Buddhists do not worship a higher power or deity.
> 
> It's a Shramic religion which literally means self help. They believe that karma/deeds/conduct is responsible for spiritual well being, not a higher power or deity. A common misconception is that Buddhists worship Buddha. This is categorically false. They revere him, try to emulate him but they don't worship him.



So they don't see him as a god, more of a person who achieved what they are working at, or towards?


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## Chessie (Aug 26, 2016)

Reaver said:


> There have been and still are many Buddhist societies. While not technically atheist (at least by modern definitions of that word) Buddhists do not worship a higher power or deity.
> 
> It's a Shramic religion which literally means self help. They believe that karma/deeds/conduct is responsible for spiritual well being, not a higher power or deity. A common misconception is that Buddhists worship Buddha. This is categorically false. They revere him, try to emulate him but they don't worship him.


Yes, you're right in that Buddhists are technically atheist but they are still considered religious.


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## Reaver (Aug 26, 2016)

SaltyDog said:


> So they don't see him as a god, more of a person who achieved what they are working at, or towards?



That's absolutely right. To them, Buddha was a man, a great teacher and someone who lived by a certain set of principles that they revere and strive for in their lives.





Chesterama said:


> Yes, you're right in that Buddhists are technically atheist but they are still considered religious.



Agreed. I was only replying to the statement about atheistic societies.


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## Chessie (Aug 26, 2016)

But they *do* in a sense worship Budda. Why else would they have statues in his honor? Myanmar has an enormous one made entirely out of gold and the people there take yearly pilgrimages to leave him flowers and food and money, pray to him etc.


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## FifthView (Aug 26, 2016)

I don't know if we make too much of this god/divinity thing.  Having faith in _something_, whether it's a divine being or simply Nature/Gaia or fate or the laws of science...what's the essential difference?  I do think there are differences, but I'm not sure those differences manifest in extremely different ways with respect to human behavior and attitudes.

People have pet theories, and adhere to those theories as if they are polestars, guides they use for orientation in this messy affair called reality.

The same sort of fuzziness attaches to the concept of worship, for me.  Is it possible to "worship" another human being, a human institution, currency, a principle, nature?  Again, perhaps one might find differences between worship of a deity and worship of something more earthly, but the manifestation on the whole (a range of activities) may not be significantly different.  People have died for their god and for a principle or a political movement.  People have dedicated their lives to spreading the word of a god or a political doctrine.

I don't mean to belittle anyone's faith.  Much of this is still fuzzy for me.  I bring these thoughts up because, while I can easily imagine a society that doesn't worship any deity, I have an extremely difficult time imagining a society of beings that has no form of faith or worship (using these terms in the looser sense already outlined above.)

*Edit:  Just want to note that I'm not calling religious faith a "pet theory."  I'm using that term in a kinder, gentler way.  I have my own pet theories, as anyone who has read many of my comments here might suspect, and I know that I am guided by these—at least for a time.   I think it's an attribute of humans (and I can only use anecdotal evidence, personal observation) to have a theory of reality and to orient one's life and activities accordingly.


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## Reaver (Aug 26, 2016)

Chesterama said:


> But they *do* in a sense worship Budda. Why else would they have statues in his honor? Myanmar has an enormous one made entirely out of gold and the people there take yearly pilgrimages to leave him flowers and food and money, pray to him etc.



Only in the sense that they revere him. They don't pray to Buddha thinking that their prayers will be heard and answered. That would imply that they think of him as a deity. When praying,  they usually chant or recite Buddhists sayings and teachings.

Buddhists know that only they are capable of effecting positive change in their lives.

But again, I've gotten off topic and kindly ask that all further discussion go back to religions/ deities in fantasy fiction.

If this thread has run its course and we simply can't get back on track, I'm happy to lock it down.


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## FifthView (Aug 26, 2016)

Reaver said:


> But again, I've gotten off topic and kindly ask that all further discussion go back to religions/ deities in fantasy fiction.
> 
> If this thread has run its course and we simply can't get back on track, I'm happy to lock it down.



I hope my last comment doesn't fall too far off track if it falls off.

I think maybe the problem with discussing this topic _in general_ is that the natural trend is to bring in real-world religions to the discussion and we may have understandings or beliefs about real religions that diverge, leading us down a path focusing on them and not on deities and religions for fantasy worlds.

If my last comment went astray, I'll try to bring it back.  In afterthought, I seem to have been merely reiterating something I wrote in response to the OP earlier:



FifthView said:


> You can sometimes just imagine how the people feel about your world and create simple beliefs that express their thoughts about the world.  Things like (to borrow from our world) "Fortune favors the bold!" express a belief.  What if most people in a culture thought that way?  Would this be a "religion," of a sort?  At least, a system of belief?
> 
> I think that having a rich cultural tapestry is possible without worrying about who/what gets worshipped and why.



Another recent thread raised the topic (for me) of how some of my favorite fantasy worlds might have a somewhat common medieval European base but still seem like very different worlds. How do they diverge from the initial model?  What features give them a unique identity for me?  This current thread on deities/religions has clarified something for me.  I love how the societies in these different worlds revere different things, abhor different things, and in general have a kind of cultural identity relating to systems of belief (whether religious or secular.)  So the kinds of deities, religions, and value systems can play a large role in my enjoyment–and having variety keeps me supplied with new worlds to enjoy.

As for my own writing, I do tend to use organized religions of one sort or another, but I dip into the theistic and atheistic varieties about equally.  I don't, however, have literal gods and goddesses running around in the world, interacting with humans.  My theistic religions keep them at a distance.  And I don't know why this is.


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## TheKillerBs (Aug 26, 2016)

FifthView said:


> As for my own writing, I do tend to use organized religions of one sort or another, but I dip into the theistic and atheistic varieties about equally.  I don't, however, have literal gods and goddesses running around in the world, interacting with humans.  My theistic religions keep them at a distance.  And I don't know why this is.



For ambiguity's sake, perhaps?


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## Peat (Aug 26, 2016)

The presence of very real, very tangible gods raises all sorts of questions as to how a society would function that I do not think the average fantasy addresses well. Many don't address it at all. So far I have two WIPs with religions with gods that you can be sure are as real as your kitchen table; in both cases, they are heavily theocratic.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 27, 2016)

I would argue that everyone has some sort of faith/belief/morality/spirituality system, even if that does not take the form of a "God." Even atheists typically have a "something" greater than the human race that they look toward, even if that is just the potential of the human race, science, or a system of morality. It seems instinctual for us to look toward a higher power, being or ideal. There are very, very few people that absolutely reject all meaning and truth. 

A fantasy society that literally does not possess this need to find transcendent meaning in life other than mere survival would be very different from humans. It would be very interesting to have such a race, but it would be difficult for us to relate to them. Fantasy enables you to explore the otherworldly, yes, but it also must be relatable.


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## Reaver (Aug 27, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I would argue that everyone has some sort of faith/belief/morality/spirituality system, even if that does not take the form of a "God." Even atheists typically have a "something" greater than the human race that they look toward, even if that is just the potential of the human race, science, or a system of morality. It seems instinctual for us to look toward a higher power, being or ideal. There are very, very few people that absolutely reject all meaning and truth.
> 
> A fantasy society that literally does not possess this need to find transcendent meaning in life other than mere survival would be very different from humans. It would be very interesting to have such a race, but it would be difficult for us to relate to them. Fantasy enables you to explore the otherworldly, yes, but it also must be relatable.



You're making quite an assumption using the word "us" when talking about not being able to relate to something alien or not like humans. Maybe a certain percentage would have difficulties but I think that at the very least a similar percentage wouldn't have any problems at all. 

Also, nihilists reject all meaning and to them, truth is subjective. There are a lot more of them in the world than you may think.

As I said before, it all comes down to the skill of the writer and the willingness of the reader to suspend disbelief.


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## FifthView (Aug 27, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I would argue that everyone has some sort of faith/belief/morality/spirituality system, even if that does not take the form of a "God." Even atheists typically have a "something" greater than the human race that they look toward, even if that is just the potential of the human race, science, or a system of morality. It seems instinctual for us to look toward a higher power, being or ideal. There are very, very few people that absolutely reject all meaning and truth.
> 
> A fantasy society that literally does not possess this need to find transcendent meaning in life other than mere survival would be very different from humans. It would be very interesting to have such a race, but it would be difficult for us to relate to them. Fantasy enables you to explore the otherworldly, yes, but it also must be relatable.



I tend to agree.  But for me the most pressing question about trying the experiment would be whether writing such a people would be possible.    How do you do that?  This reminds me of the old argument against the purist skeptics:  "You say that we can't know anything; but how do you _know_ that?"  How do you reject something like meaning and yet mean to say what you say?  Perhaps drawing such a people from the outside would be possible, like having a POV character who is not in that group or an omniscient narrator describing that people at a distance.  But would your POV character be able to converse with a character who rejects all meaning?  Would your omniscient narrator be able to relate a conversation such a person would have with another?  It'd be a little like describing trees, maybe.  (And not the walking, talking kind lol.)


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## Steerpike (Aug 27, 2016)

Peat said:


> The presence of very real, very tangible gods raises all sorts of questions as to how a society would function that I do not think the average fantasy addresses well. Many don't address it at all. So far I have two WIPs with religions with gods that you can be sure are as real as your kitchen table; in both cases, they are heavily theocratic.



I suppose it depends, in part, on what the gods are like. Do they demand worship? Or even though they're real and around, do they have their own problems to worry about and care a little less about what mortals are up to?


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## FifthView (Aug 27, 2016)

TheKillerBs said:


> For ambiguity's sake, perhaps?



I think it's because, when I think of stories I want to write, my focus is on the people in those stories, the human condition, and having gods walking about among them interacting with the story would remove that focus.  But yes, also enabling doubt and skepticism and that eleventh hour desperation for human characters, and for the reader, is more interesting for me.  

I have read stories which included such interactive gods and enjoyed them.  But I have a natural aversion to putting them in my own stories.  This isn't really a decision I make consciously, however, but more like a default starting position. 



Peat said:


> The presence of very real, very tangible gods raises all sorts of questions as to how a society would function that I do not think the average fantasy addresses well. Many don't address it at all. So far I have two WIPs with religions with gods that you can be sure are as real as your kitchen table; in both cases, they are heavily theocratic.



Yeah, having tangible gods raises so many world building and plot questions.

I do have one WIP in which the empire's founding principle is that a goddess long ago gifted this land to the people and set up the empire's structural elements (form of government, centers of authority, etc.)  The empire is a "soft theocracy" in that there's the assumption that the emperor has a divine right to rule and the entire empire has only the one religion.  But it's a deist form of belief:  The goddess set things up and then departed.   The magic in this world is considered another gift from the goddess, but kind of a "standing endowment" sort of thing; she is not making decisions in any direct way to give this person or that person magical ability.  

Even this interaction-at-a-distance raises some important questions about the nature of reality:  The mere fact that some people acquire magical ability thanks to that goddess's ambient influence means that her influence still exhibits itself within the world, and so who can be skeptical of her existence?  This is the effect of having an observable "proof" of a deity's existence.


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## Steerpike (Aug 27, 2016)

If you look at the Malazan books, where people can ascend, the gods are active and they take interest in major events, but I get the impression they're not so interested in the day to day lives of ordinary people.


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## SaltyDog (Aug 27, 2016)

Steerpike said:


> If you look at the Malazan books, where people can ascend, the gods are active and they take interest in major events, but I get the impression they're not so interested in the day to day lives of ordinary people.




Which would make sense with a powerful being like a god.


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## Steerpike (Aug 27, 2016)

SaltyDog said:


> Which would make sense with a powerful being like a god.



Especially when they have their hands full dealing with other gods.


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## Reaver (Aug 27, 2016)

The last three posts have just described the entire premise of the God of War games.


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## FifthView (Aug 27, 2016)

Also re: a people who reject meaning and truth, I wonder whether identifiable and compelling motives and goals (for character and reader) require some system of belief or at least belief in a higher meaning.

Revenge?  A character out for revenge believes it's a meaningful response to a detested event.

Rescue?  A character who seeks to rescue a loved one finds his relationship to that other to be meaningful.  Their nearness (so that the loved one is no longer at a distance in the hands of captors) is meaningful to the rescuer.  If he's rescuing a stranger, like a kidnapped heir, then the institution of government is meaningful to him.  

And so forth.  Trying to right the ship, establish or reestablish a type of order—or even, chaos—seems to require an acceptance of meaning.

I suppose that an instinctual operation, like a spreading mold or virus, wouldn't require such a thing; but then we are a little back to that "describing trees" sort of thing.  It could be fascinating to watch such a developing condition, operation.  But I doubt it'd be possible to write from that POV without inserting a belief in meaning/truth.


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## skip.knox (Aug 27, 2016)

It is clear, to me at least, from this thread that one cannot even begin to address the OP without a definition of what atheism means and what religion means. Actually, the OP subject line says "worshipper" which is not exactly the same as religion.

In any case, this is an area where an author ought not even tackle the subject unless it is going to be the point of the book. There is simply too much room for the reader to bring his own understandings to the story, too much possibility for misunderstanding and consequent disengagement. Again, unless a discussion of the nature of atheism and its social implications is going to be the point of the book.


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## FifthView (Aug 27, 2016)

Steerpike said:


> If you look at the Malazan books, where people can ascend, the gods are active and they take interest in major events, but I get the impression they're not so interested in the day to day lives of ordinary people.



There's always the anthropomorphizing of these kinds of gods.  They're hardly distinguishable from groups of extremely powerful human characters.  The Illuminati,  in Avengers movies The World Security Council, any hidden cabal of very powerful wizards would do.

It's an interesting approach, to slap the name of "gods" on these characters, because as with Asgardian or Greek gods we can simultaneously contemplate some of the great forces in nature (non-human and human natures!)   I've enjoyed plenty of stories that had that sort of god, but introducing it into my own writing....I don't know.  It takes a little focus away from my primary interest.  This isn't to say that the existence of interactive gods doesn't introduce the potential of exploring the human condition via their existence, however.  Maybe I'll need to consider that potential more.


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## Reaver (Aug 27, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> It is clear, to me at least, from this thread that one cannot even begin to address the OP without a definition of what atheism means and what religion means. Actually, the OP subject line says "worshipper" which is not exactly the same as religion.
> 
> In any case, this is an area where an author ought not even tackle the subject unless it is going to be the point of the book. There is simply too much room for the reader to bring his own understandings to the story, too much possibility for misunderstanding and consequent disengagement. Again, unless a discussion of the nature of atheism and its social implications is going to be the point of the book.



Excellent point. If I choose to have any sort of theism in my writing, it's in very generalized and vague form. For example, a character might say something like "Thank (insert deity)!" or I may include a cult that worships a deity associated with evil or darkness or whatever. 

That's about as far as I delve into that. It is indeed far too complicated to explore any ramifications of religion's impact in my fantasy worlds. Also, I don't ever want to come across as one of those preachy writers.


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## FifthView (Aug 27, 2016)

Ugh I just realized I've been running the DC vs Marvel recurring schism dichotomy schism through my head.


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## X Equestris (Aug 27, 2016)

I don't have deities walking around, or the confirmed existence of deities, in anything I've written so far.  My primary created world has plenty of potential evidence for the various religions, or no religion.  I feel like bringing in the same uncertainty from real life provides better dramatic opportunities.  That said, religion is a big part of my world and many of the stories set in it.


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## Peat (Aug 27, 2016)

FifthView said:


> Yeah, having tangible gods raises so many world building and plot questions.
> 
> I do have one WIP in which the empire's founding principle is that a goddess long ago gifted this land to the people and set up the empire's structural elements (form of government, centers of authority, etc.)  The empire is a "soft theocracy" in that there's the assumption that the emperor has a divine right to rule and the entire empire has only the one religion.  But it's a deist form of belief:  The goddess set things up and then departed.   The magic in this world is considered another gift from the goddess, but kind of a "standing endowment" sort of thing; she is not making decisions in any direct way to give this person or that person magical ability.
> 
> Even this interaction-at-a-distance raises some important questions about the nature of reality:  The mere fact that some people acquire magical ability thanks to that goddess's ambient influence means that her influence still exhibits itself within the world, and so who can be skeptical of her existence?  This is the effect of having an observable "proof" of a deity's existence.



I think skepticism is still possible even with deities as real as the kitchen table. Its not a rational reaction but I'm sure everyone here can think of multiple occasions where they've seen people come out with some very irrational reactions to absolutely true things. Which of course tends to lead to ramifications.

One model I'm pursuing is one where every craft guild is in fact a cult to the relevant deity. If the god is real and his influence possible, why wouldn't you all be keeping them on side? Religious teachings teach good craftsmanship; displaying good craftsmanship is needed to advance as a religious. The idea is that their faith is utterly intertwined in their real life.

Of course, arguably, if you know they're real, then is it really faith? The answer I would suggest that just because they're real, doesn't mean that faith isn't required for the idea they'll come through for you.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Aug 27, 2016)

I have yet to have deities walk around. But demons sure do. The only religion I have really built is a meritocracy religion. The better you are the higher you rise. But part of it is giving away part of what you make to help others. This means the better soldier the better your standing. This also includes thieves of a certain group. The better the thief the better you are.


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## Jackarandajam (Nov 22, 2016)

"all the gods in their empty halls" is a common expression in my book. 

religion isn't a very discussed topic, but the possibility of a god, that is somehow related to the very mysterious and singlular form of magic, becomes a topic eventually. I don't think there is going to be a conclusion, but I'm not sure yet. 

Things happen for a reason, Magic seems to have a mind of its own, the old gods are dead, maybe there's something, or someone, in control.

It's hard to have religion in your book and not have it a play a central role, it seems, and I have other goals to acheive. Afraid of muddying the waters.


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## Chessie (Nov 23, 2016)

I stay away from religion in my books even though I'm a person of faith. The closest I get to it in my WIP is my main character invoking the name of the Almighty before entering the realm of Morana (goddess of death in Slavic folklore). Not because I'm afraid of offending anyone, but because religion in literature is a complicated thing for me. I want the focus on the characters and the plot, not religion, not the world or setting. It's a personal choice and if writing with religion in mind works for your story, then by all means go forward with it.


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## valiant12 (Nov 23, 2016)

There are god like creatures in my stories, some of them even have prominant role in the plot. Are they real gods? I don't know.
 That’s for the reader to decide.


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## Thomas Laszlo (Nov 25, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> This is a good question to bring up. I think authors often avoid tackling religion because it's such a sensitive subject in the real world, and inventing religions can get complicated. The scenario you're describing (where everyone is atheist) is pretty common.
> 
> My world is mainly dominated by a totalitarian theocracy, so religion is quite a large part of it, though the religion was invented to control the masses.
> 
> ...



I know this is old but I find this interesting! Maybe part of a whole story is about a MC who is a philosopher? Or theologian I guess is more correct? Tension could be added by the religious and philosophical debates surrounding everything. I'd like to explore that soon...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
NaNoWriMo WIP!


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## Michael K. Eidson (Dec 1, 2016)

SaltyDog said:


> I'm just curious about this topic, so I decided to see what other writers have decided to put in their own worlds.
> 
> Do you have magical immortal beings called gods?  Or do you only have one god?  Or none at all?
> 
> ...



I'm coming late to this topic, but I also find it of great interest.

In my WIP, I have a pantheon of deities who exist because mortals believe they do. The more mortals who believe in a deity and the stronger that belief, the more powerful the deity becomes. Worship of a deity gives more power to the deity than mere belief. It is possible for a deity to exist due to the beliefs of many but the worship of none.

The deities of this world can and do walk amongst the mortals, but they take care not to do anything that might cause worshipers to stop worshiping. Each deity symbolizes some aspect of reality, and mortals who revere that aspect of reality are likely worshipers of the associated deity. But even those who do not worship may still believe, because they respect or at least accept the associated aspect of reality and perhaps even have some degree of faith in it, without revering or worshiping it. The powers a deity exhibits are either common to all deities (e.g., walking between the different planes of existence) or are related to the aspect of reality that they symbolize.

Each deity possesses an item that represents their symbolism, and retaining possession of this item is important to retaining the beliefs of mortals. If they lose their symbol of power, their status automatically takes a hit, because the mortals believe it should.

Any event that can strongly sway the beliefs of mortals about a deity, regardless of which deity/deities the mortals worship (if any), can have a drastic impact on that deity's status. This is a major impetus for the novel.

It's not so much the deities who control the fates of the mortals, but the mortals who control the fates of the deities. There is a goddess called Lady Fate, but there is no guarantee that her prophecies will come true. If they don't come true, or if some deity has to intervene to make them come true, she'll lose believers/worshipers or their belief/faith will weaken, which means she'll lose status, so it's to her benefit to only make pronouncements she's certain will come to pass without divine intervention. She's not above making pronouncements that result in swaying beliefs/expectations, but, again, she has to take care not to alienate believers/worshipers. Lady Fate has only a few worshipers in the world, but nearly every mortal inhabitant believes in her, and she wants to keep it that way, which will play a major role throughout the series.

While the deities are all vying for power, some more than others, they all understand that the destruction of any of their number could undermine the beliefs of mortals in the divinity of deities as a group. So their battles are not physically carried out between themselves. Their battlefields are the minds of mortals. The deities communicate directly with a few chosen mortals, and rely on their chosen to take the actions necessary to sway or maintain the beliefs of other mortals.

It's possible in this world for any mortal to ascend to godhood. All it takes is for a significant portion of the world's population to believe you're a deity, and presto, you are. It's not likely to happen overnight. The beliefs must be deep-rooted. Mere pronouncement of a belief does not suffice. Note also that worship is not necessary, only belief. There also does not have to be an existing entity who morphs into a deity. When belief is strong enough, if no one already exists who is widely recognized as embodying that belief, a deity may spring into being to embody it. That is, mortals may create deities. None of the religions of the world preach that their deities created the world or any of its inhabitants. They understand that either deities or mortals must have existed one before the other, and since it is recognized that mortals can create deities, it stands to reason that mortals existed first. Reincarnation is also recognized as a truth of this world, which makes it easy to believe that mortals have always existed. Because of reincarnation, mortals aren't really that mortal after all. Their spirits are immortal; it's only their bodies that die.


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## Alyssa (Dec 7, 2016)

My current project contains a pantheon of deities who would frequently and quite ostentatiously interfere until about a century before the story begins. From there, however, they disappear for reasons that I won't elaborate too far into. My assumption is that in a world that has undergone a magically powered industrial revolution cum enlightenment, coupled with the absence of the gods where they had once very obviously existed it would be much harder to maintain belief compared to systems of belief that always operated on belief/faith rather than divine revelation (i.e. people believed in the gods because they could imagine them vs. people believed in the gods because they could see them).
As far as the atheist vs worshipper question goes, I would say the world is mostly practicing atheist who recognize that gods might have once existed.


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