# Ships in the 1500s, 1600s and frozen lakes?



## Jess A (Dec 12, 2012)

Hello,

This seems like a silly question.

I have a setting in a cold region. The duke's castle backs some low mountains and it is fronted by a very large 'lake'. The town is spread on the lake shores. The lake swells in the summer with mountain snow melts, but otherwise is not fed by anything else. It freezes over as the temperature plunges. It is not frozen over in the warmer months.

There are no overly large vessels - nothing seaworthy - what's the point, when they can't get to the sea? It is quite an inland region and to get to the sea requires land travel. There are fishing vessels and some larger ones to carry goods to the other side of the shore (for some things it's quicker to cut straight across the lake rather than use the roads to go around it). 

I'm assuming even the largest of the vessels (some are not exactly small) would have to be pulled onto land and there would be a boat shed/etc set aside for this? Can anyone go into more detail for me? The people must be quite used to moving the boats. Do they flood a special area (to move the ships) before the lake freezes, then drain it?

Thanks.


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## Graylorne (Dec 13, 2012)

I'm by no means an expert, but I'd assume larger ships would be pulled out of the water on rollers (tree trunks) and anything small would be carried on shore. Probably sheds only for masts (if any) and riggings, not for the ships.


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## Saigonnus (Dec 13, 2012)

I have heard of even large boats being moved on rollers (like straight logs) or a sled for portaging, it reduces the amount of drag onb the ship and with a few oxen or several humans, they could move the ships with little trouble. Also, like moving a boat in real life, you could have a ramp down into the water and a special wagon that the boat simply slides onto and them oxen move it to a shed if it comes down to it; though it is largely unneccesary. 

On most boats or ships, you could simply leave them in the water, the ice won't really affect them at all without the currents and tidal surges that you'd find in the open ocean.Besides which the warmer air inside the boat keeps the hull from freezing and while you may have to recaulk some of the seams with pitch as the ice melts, there would likely be a thin ring of water around the boat just from the slight motion of the boat, enough that the ice shouldn't really even touch the boat. Really, the only time you'd have a problem is if the ice was thick enough that is below the keep of the ship (dependant on the draft of the ship... i.e. how far below the waterline the hull goes) most lakes don't freeze more than a few inches thick, plenty of space beneath for ships. Shallow-draft barges or small skiffs for fishing etc would have to be pulled out.


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## ThinkerX (Dec 13, 2012)

Hmmm....

A few of the olde polar explorers took the extreme measure of sinking their own ships to avoid having them crushed by the ice pack. Then again, these guys were master mariners who knew HOW to do this and refloat the dang things afterwards.

Icepack did crush many a vessel.

My folks homestead fronts a fair sized lake (several square miles).  NONE of the people on that lake (maybe a hundred all told) leave their boats in the water during the winter (ice a good couple three feet thick).  Instead the boats are brought ashore (muscle power) and if possible, tucked under a shelter of some sort.  Otherwise, they are flipped upside down.

In your case, the smaller boats probably would be 'turned turtle' after being brought ashore.  The larger ones...maybe cover them with a tarp (sail) to keep the bulk of the snow off.  But all would be brought ashore if at all possible.


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## CupofJoe (Dec 13, 2012)

In at least one film I've seen about Canada back in the hunting and trapping days of the Hudson Bay company [so possibly a little late than the 15/1600s] a large boat [small ship really as they used up rivers and across Hudson Bay] that was too large for the crew to pull ashore had dozens of tree trunks laid in the water to float around it. When the ice started to freeze the crew used poles and hit the logs so that they rocked up and down and banged against the hull and each other. This broke up the edge of the ice sheet.  The crew stayed on-board all winter.


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## Jess A (Dec 13, 2012)

Hi all,

This is very useful, thank you very much! A few conflicting answers there, but I think it is enough to work with on a basic level. I would think the townspeople would return to the town because they are not exactly far away from it. 

Is it realistic to assume there would only be small fishing vessels (to fish on the lake) and some larger ships to ferry things across the lake? There would be some dwellings across the lake, and also trade. It wouldn't be an easy place to live in, I imagine. I'm still doing a bit of research into it.


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## Graylorne (Dec 13, 2012)

CupofJoe said:


> In at least one film I've seen about Canada back in the hunting and trapping days of the Hudson Bay company [so possibly a little late than the 15/1600s] a large boat [small ship really as they used up rivers and across Hudson Bay] that was too large for the crew to pull ashore had dozens of tree trunks laid in the water to float around it. When the ice started to freeze the crew used poles and hit the logs so that they rocked up and down and banged against the hull and each other. This broke up the edge of the ice sheet.  The crew stayed on-board all winter.



This is in the middle of nowhere, I suppose? For townbound folk it sounds less comfy. Unless the town/village is so small the fishermen live on board and have no dwelling on shore. But then they're really poor.

---

If there're only isolated dwellings on the other side, I'd think that 'larger ships' would be relative. See: boeier (on a Dutch site). They should be large enough to carry passengers, perhaps a few horses, and some freight. Everything larger would be way too expensive.


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## psychotick (Dec 13, 2012)

Hi,

I'm no expert, but my thought would be that how far out of the water they pull their ships each winter, and whether they use boatsheds etc, would come down to a simple calculation. How much work is it versus how valuable is the ship to them?

At a guess light boats, skiffs one man fishing boats would be pulled out because its easy. Heavier ones, unless they're truly valuable, would only be pulled to the shore, and winter damage repaired when spring comes around.

Also there are some hull shapes that will suffer more damage than others by the expansion of the ice. In essence deep hulled, narrow keeled ships would suffer the most as the ice squeezes them together. But flat bottomed boats, i.e. not very deep in the water line would suffer much less. The pressure of the ice freezing has less crush effect upon them than it does lifting effect. In a lake I would expect flat bottomed boats to be quite popular, especially as cargo barges, because of their stability.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Graylorne (Dec 14, 2012)

Just thought of another question: If this lake isn't fed by any sizable river, all boats must be local built. That means: a) their size is restricted to local conditions of craftsmanship, workforce, technical limitations, and b) the type of boat will be adapted to local conditions. Likepsychotik said: flat bottomed.


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## Jess A (Dec 14, 2012)

Hi guys,

Yes with regards to size - they are not large ships - as mentioned above, the larger of the ships are used to transport goods across the shore. They are certainly locally built. A lot of the people living there are refugees from a Kingdom (and some from overseas...it's a plot point). Outcasts, but with various skills. Some are locals and have lived there for generations, but others are from coastal regions. 

I think it's the work that is bothering me! They would have to start early enough to get it out, who do they pay if they pay anybody. Most of the boats are just small fishing boats, nothing special or of huge value. I suppose there must also be a risk of the boat being destroyed on land during the long winters. 

I love the pictures of the boeier! There is definitely nothing bigger than that.


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## Graylorne (Dec 14, 2012)

I suppose fishing is a major industry for the town. Wouldn't getting the ships out be a communal effort?


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## Filk (Dec 14, 2012)

Drydock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

perhaps this would help - this is necessary for the repair of larger, ocean-going vessels as well unless you have a ship made of steel and have underwater welders, but that is modern technology. I would imagine larger boats on a landlocked lake belonging only to royalty or the richest of merchants and to be at all sizable it should be a large lake, but who am I to set the parameters of your world?


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## Jess A (Dec 15, 2012)

Graylorne - a very good point. Fishing is indeed a big part of the town. 

Filk - What do you mean, who are you to be setting parameters? Your ideas are perfectly valid, helpful and very welcome.  And yes - I looked into dry docking a little. For a ship that isn't incredibly large (no larger than this: boeier ), would it be better to dry dock it to do repairs or pull it onto land? I think taking into account hired labour (getting it ashore) for the rich merchant/Duke, and the maintenance of the drydock. 

Must note that it is a heavily forested landscape. Lots of wood available.


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## Graylorne (Dec 15, 2012)

The important things are money, manpower and resources. Manpower is the town (first of all the fishermen and sailors themselves should work together as a matter of course as a communal obligation). Resources are the surrounding forests, perhaps a nearby iron mine, flax for ropes e.d. Biggest problem is money. They won't have anything elaborate, that would be far too expensive and for the scale of things uneconomic. Building a ship can be done in the open air: http://www.marinersmuseum.org/node/1000423/804, but a drydock is something else again. I think this goes beyond the possibilities of a backwoods town full of people who are practically refugees. Perhaps there are cheap ways and then I'd be interested to know which*, but to my mind it's too expensive and too much trouble. To my mind you'd find these only in the major harbor towns (like London or Amsterdam).
Ship repairs will probebly be done by careening Careening - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia  and  http://www.sailblogs.com/member/sora/images/careening7_scale.jpg

Perhaps you'd better think of longboats. They came in various sizes and all of them could be manhandled by their crew.

*I remember a construction of wooden poles and barrels to lift a ship out of the water for repairs to the bottom. But you won't get the ship on the shore that way and there aren't any nice sandy beaches too, it's all rock ofc.


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## Filk (Dec 15, 2012)

I am not sure, but I somehow remember this image of a ship rigged to a system of pulleys being pulled up greased logs that are slanting into the water. Then the ship would level out onto a platform or something that is inside a building that opens to the water. There are only two logs so that the "v" shape of the the hull dips between them and the sides of the hull slide on them. Also, a crane system might be feasible for moving such a large item out of the water. If this is a flat-bottomed vessel than perhaps a simple ramp would work instead of the two logs.

I'd imagine a team of oxen could pull a boat that size up a ramp no problem. Drydocks are probably for much larger vessels.

Medieval ships - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The further reading section of this article lists several books I have been meaning to get that would probably have a much more sophisticated answer for you. If you were so inclined.


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## Filk (Dec 15, 2012)

I am not sure, but I somehow remember this image of a ship rigged to a system of pulleys being pulled up greased logs that are slanting into the water. Then the ship would level out onto a platform or something that is inside a building that opens to the water. There are only two logs so that the "v" shape of the the hull dips between them and the sides of the hull slide on them. Also, a crane system might be feasible for moving such a large item out of the water. If this is a flat-bottomed vessel than perhaps a simple ramp would work instead of the two logs.

I'd imagine a team of oxen could pull a boat that size up a ramp no problem. Drydocks are probably for much larger vessels.

Medieval ships - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The further reading section of this article lists several books I have been meaning to get that would probably have a much more sophisticated answer for you. If you were so inclined.

Never heard of careening before; very cool stuff!


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## Jess A (Dec 15, 2012)

This has given me a lot to think about. I did not know the term 'careening' before either, but I vaguely know the basic principles of it. 

The pulleys was something else I did think about, but wasn't sure how to describe. I guess I only need a brief explanation of these things, through the eyes of visitors - though if I do decide to write a scene involving it more in depth, I would want a better description. I'm not sure about the oxen team - maybe on the other side of the lake. 

To explain the town a little: Yes it is quite a small (but rapidly growing) town. Historically the castle and the town belonged to a king or leader of some sort. I haven't fleshed it out - but the castle has been there for a while and was later taken over by my Duke character. His small army settled there with their families. He has been there for nearly 20 years, which isn't a long time, but I was thinking of having the town previously populated (a very small population) so already having some thriving industry there. My thought is that either the Duke killed the current lord and took over, or the governance was already in shambles when he arrived. Whatever the case, I would like to say there was a previous industry there. Fishing, perhaps. Though the Duke might also be interested in leisure on the lake (but he is quite minimalist in many other ways). He was big on hunting and sports before he betrayed his King and left to create his own duchy. He is still a 'duke' because he says he is and because his people allow him to be their leader. Some of the population would be quite military-minded as well. They have to defend themselves from the King, though the King has other priorities. 

The castle backs a sharp cliff/mountains; whoever built it was wealthy as it is large and quite defensible. It is sort of built into the side and the town is tiered. There is a beach. It's not huge and space is probably limited, but there are probably small caves and coves. Houses are almost built on top of each other. The only way to access the town is via the lake and also by some steep and small roads which circle the lake. Walls guard the castle and most of the town. I'd think a lot of passage to and from the settlements across the lake might be via boat if carrying lots of people or goods. The settlements are probably a result of an increasing population (the Duke is always getting more refugees and people have families). Otherwise they can travel via the roads (the richer people can afford the ferry or goods transport, though poorer people might find ways to get onto a working boat). I guess the communal aspect can come into play, and I guess business-minded people would regularly ferry people across the lake for a fee. Forests are extensive and yes I think an iron mine would be a great addition. They need trade but any trade with the kingdom they border would be quite illegal from the King's side  There are probably other communities to trade with. 

Does this sound reasonable? It's a little off topic but I think it influences the types of ships and what they do in winter. 

Also, if they do overseas trade via another kingdom (or whatever)'s sea port, what happens then (examples from early modern Europe if you have any)? I would think the Duke quickly made as many friends as he could from bordering leaders. Goods can only be transported via land to the port city of course. The Duke will always be trying to find ways to make money and boost his army and protect his resources.


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## Filk (Dec 16, 2012)

Sounds like an engaging setting. If the woods are coniferous then there will be the industry of pitch as well. Giant, straight pine trees have been treasured as masts in the past and can be pulled across frozen ground by oxen. Tannin, used in cuing hides among other things, is often derived from certain types of bark. Otherwise people tend to clearcut forests for pastureland and farmland. This can be done by starting forest fires or by the meticulous timbering of trees and pulling out the stumps (oxen or draft horses).

I think that you will want a big lake. Also, it sounds quite reasonable.


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## Jess A (Dec 16, 2012)

Filk said:


> Sounds like an engaging setting. If the woods are coniferous then there will be the industry of pitch as well. Giant, straight pine trees have been treasured as masts in the past and can be pulled across frozen ground by oxen. Tannin, used in cuing hides among other things, is often derived from certain types of bark. Otherwise people tend to clearcut forests for pastureland and farmland. This can be done by starting forest fires or by the meticulous timbering of trees and pulling out the stumps (oxen or draft horses).
> 
> I think that you will want a big lake. Also, it sounds quite reasonable.



Great, any ideas for things to export is useful. The trees are coniferous yes. I'm off to work so I will pop back - I do have some more questions about farming and very cold winters but perhaps this is actually a topic for the agriculture thread that I spotted some time ago.


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## Graylorne (Dec 18, 2012)

Little Storm Cloud said:


> They need trade but any trade with the kingdom they border would be quite illegal from the King's side  There are probably other communities to trade with.



As your Duke is already in major trouble with his King, he would't mind a tidy bit of illegal trading.




> Also, if they do overseas trade via another kingdom (or whatever)'s sea port, what happens then (examples from early modern Europe if you have any)? I would think the Duke quickly made as many friends as he could from bordering leaders. Goods can only be transported via land to the port city of course. The Duke will always be trying to find ways to make money and boost his army and protect his resources.



He has to know not only the right Kings but also the right merchants. No King or nobleman trades by himself (many hadn't the brains for it). Your Duke will use agents for his own business, guilds will trade on their own (taxes) and he'd need probably a big banking house (see: Fugger) to borrow from and have an account by. Also he needs trade pacts for trade to the neighboring country and for trade through it.


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## Jess A (Dec 18, 2012)

Graylorne said:


> As your Duke is already in major trouble with his King, he would't mind a tidy bit of illegal trading.
> 
> 
> He has to know not only the right Kings but also the right merchants. No King or nobleman trades by himself (many hadn't the brains for it). Your Duke will use agents for his own business, guilds will trade on their own (taxes) and he'd need probably a big banking house (see: Fugger) to borrow from and have an account by. Also he needs trade pacts for trade to the neighboring country and for trade through it.



Yes, just my point - he has quite a nice illegal trade going. And he tries to steal away recruits at the same time. 

Ah, I see! I never thought of a banking house. This Duke is more of a warrior than anything. I'll need to look into the banking house and the trade pacts. I have a shelf full of books to scan through. The Duke is actually one of the protagonists of the story (not a major one though) but is as shady as he needs to be to get things done. He can't exactly be wealthy yet, but he has some good resources and assets.


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