# Inquiry about some names for kingdoms



## Gurkhal (Nov 2, 2012)

I'm in the process of formalizing some ideas for my little world and for it I have come to the point of making names for my nine kingdoms. I was wondering what people might think about the feeling they give. I'm mostly be going to use the ancient Mesoamerica, Egypt and Mesopotamia fÃ¶r inspiration. I want to give them some semblance of connection but not so that they all sound alike and the reader gets a hard time to differentiate between them.

Inswhara
Xocanayara
Kemor
Duhnir
Seratti
Tenahmon
Zitzaya
Anshanaka
Mijawa

Any and all comments and suggestions are welcome.


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## Wanara009 (Nov 2, 2012)

Out of the list, I found "Inswhara'", "Xocanayara", and "Zitzaya" to blend rather easily if you say it out loud for a while. I think changing them a little so they don't rhyme as well would be a good idea. Then again, I'm pronouncing it with my Indonesian accent, so it might different for other people.

Good luck and keep up the good work


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## WyrdMystic (Nov 2, 2012)

I like them. Probably just me, but I struggled with the second one when trying it out in my head. As for feeling, just from the name and solely my opinion and only after a little thought -  I get - 

Inswhara – makes me think of trader types, something like Carthage
Xocanayara - dunno
Kemor -  nothing specific
Duhnir – industrial warrior types, medieval
Seratti – serene, peaceful, ritualistic
Tenahmon – makes me think of pharaohs and slaves
Zitzaya - exotic
Anshanaka - exotic
Mijawa – tribal, ritualistic


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## PaulineMRoss (Nov 2, 2012)

I like the names - they each start with a different letter of the alphabet, which is important in distinguishing them.

But - nine kingdoms? No plutocracies? Democracies? Dictatorships? Republics? Theocracies? And - NINE? Boy, is your book going to be complicated to read...


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## Saigonnus (Nov 2, 2012)

PaulineMRoss said:


> I like the names - they each start with a different letter of the alphabet, which is important in distinguishing them.
> 
> But - nine kingdoms? No plutocracies? Democracies? Dictatorships? Republics? Theocracies? And - NINE? Boy, is your book going to be complicated to read...



I don't think it's outside the realm of possibilities to have 9 "kingdoms". When you consider mesoamerica (the archetype he's going for) before the Spanish Conquest, there were easily that many small "civilizations" even just in Mexico that all used the same sort of government because they weren't familiar with any other type and it's what worked best for them. 

If the nine kingdoms are each based around a principal city and the constituent villages/holy places, then it is entire conceivable to have them intermeshed into a story and be able to include them all without it feeling "cramped"; though likely the story would center around 2 or 3 and only passively mention the other 6 to build a rich background to the story.


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## PaulineMRoss (Nov 2, 2012)

Saigonnus said:


> though likely the story would center around 2 or 3 and only passively mention the other 6 to build a rich background to the story.



OK, that would work. Still a challenge, though, to have several countries with identical styles of government. It makes it that bit harder to differentiate them. And if the architecture, clothing, food, religion are the same too - confusathon.


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## Gurkhal (Nov 2, 2012)

Wanara009 said:


> Out of the list, I found "Inswhara'", "Xocanayara", and "Zitzaya" to blend rather easily if you say it out loud for a while. I think changing them a little so they don't rhyme as well would be a good idea. Then again, I'm pronouncing it with my Indonesian accent, so it might different for other people.
> 
> Good luck and keep up the good work



Thank you.  

I've been looking at the names and I think I can see your point and I will think about it. I might for example change Inswhara to Zymara and Zitzaya to Itzaya. While at the same time Xocanayara can become Xocatl.



WyrdMystic said:


> I like them. Probably just me, but I struggled with the second one when trying it out in my head. As for feeling, just from the name and solely my opinion and only after a little thought -  I get -
> 
> Inswhara — makes me think of trader types, something like Carthage
> Xocanayara - dunno
> ...



Thanks.  Yes, Xocanayara may be a mouthful and can perhaps be shornted down to Xocatl. Also thanks for telling me what image each of the names invoces. Its very helpful for determining the details of the realms.  



PaulineMRoss said:


> I like the names - they each start with a different letter of the alphabet, which is important in distinguishing them.
> 
> But - nine kingdoms? No plutocracies? Democracies? Dictatorships? Republics? Theocracies? And - NINE? Boy, is your book going to be complicated to read...



See below



Saigonnus said:


> I don't think it's outside the realm of possibilities to have 9 "kingdoms". When you consider mesoamerica (the archetype he's going for) before the Spanish Conquest, there were easily that many small "civilizations" even just in Mexico that all used the same sort of government because they weren't familiar with any other type and it's what worked best for them.
> 
> If the nine kingdoms are each based around a principal city and the constituent villages/holy places, then it is entire conceivable to have them intermeshed into a story and be able to include them all without it feeling "cramped"; though likely the story would center around 2 or 3 and only passively mention the other 6 to build a rich background to the story.



See below



PaulineMRoss said:


> OK, that would work. Still a challenge, though, to have several countries with identical styles of government. It makes it that bit harder to differentiate them. And if the architecture, clothing, food, religion are the same too - confusathon.



Thanks both for your comments.  Both of you are right and I used the word "kingdom" for general political ententity. There will of course be various different political systems even while some form of leader-figure will be more common than not. I'm thinking about having five different generic systems and then each realm, both the nine big "kingdoms" and smaller realms, that rules them. These will be monarchy, aristocracy, tyranny (or some better word), oligarchy and democracy. A real example might be the Roman republic which could perhaps be described as a democratic aristocracy. Very few "kingdoms" and none of the large will be clear cut this or that. 

Its also correct that each kingdom will essentially be a single city which has various subjugated or allied settlements, towns or smaller cities connected to it through one mean or another. For examples one might look at the Athenian empire, the Carthagenian empire or the Tripple Alliance, also known as the Aztec empire. 

I'm thinking that these nine "kingdoms" are all part of a common culture that has grown up in the area where this is set, but they also have many regional variations of this common culture. It might be something like ancient Egypt in terms of, for example, religion. There is a native solid pantheon and cosmology but they arn't beyond importing some stuff from their neighbours, like the Egyptians brought in Baal, Anath and Astarte during the New Kingdom.

You are of course right in that if things get to similar it will be difficult to differentiate between them. My hope is however that I will be able to ensure that there will be numerous levels of difference between the nine "kingdoms" and thus make sure that they can be separated and interesting in themselves. 

Don't know if it made things clearer but I hope it did.


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## Gurkhal (Nov 2, 2012)

But on the other hand Xocatl means choclate in Nahuatl so that's probably a poor word for a city and "kingdom".


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## Leif Notae (Nov 2, 2012)

Gurkhal said:


> But on the other hand Xocatl means choclate in Nahuatl so that's probably a poor word for a city and "kingdom".



Why would it be? There are many British towns names after the amount of pigs that lived there when it was founded, or the way the river stream flowed when the first man sat down and thought to build there. Besides, it gives your "kingdom" a personality. They harvest chocolate, they work the cocoa bean and it's crucial to their survival. 

Sounds like a great kingdom to me.


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## WyrdMystic (Nov 2, 2012)

Leif Notae said:


> Why would it be? There are many British towns names after the amount of pigs that lived there when it was founded, or the way the river stream flowed when the first man sat down and thought to build there. Besides, it gives your "kingdom" a personality. They harvest chocolate, they work the cocoa bean and it's crucial to their survival.
> 
> Sounds like a great kingdom to me.



And how many readers are going to speak Nahuatl?


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## MadMadys (Nov 2, 2012)

I'm going to do it like WordMystic did because that's a great way to do it.  In general, I don't worry so much about how to say the words in my head because after a while, I'll just recognize the word and attach the people, cities, and lands themselves to the word rather than "can I pronounce that?"  I think it should be a distinctive word that pops out on the page so when you mention it, the reader knows exactly what you mean.  So in that mindset, I'll go through them and tell you what they conjure up in my noggin.

Inswhara - Sounds more like a town or sacred place than a whole kingdom.
Xocanayara - I think of a region so this could work.
Kemor - City.
Duhnir - "Is it close?"  "Duh, near!"  Bad pun, sorry.  Again, city or town.  Doesn't come across 'kingdom-y'
Seratti - Same as above only without the pun.
Tenahmon - This makes me picture a person or a particular title.
Zitzaya - Could be a region or race of people.
Anshanaka - I know I said I don't care about pronunciation, but drop the third 'a' in there and it's a much more usable word for all sorts of things.
Mijawa - Could be a people or a kingdom.

Hope that helps!


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## Leif Notae (Nov 3, 2012)

WyrdMystic said:


> And how many readers are going to speak Nahuatl?



Does it matter? You don't have to give them a definition because you already defined what they are. Who cares how many people can speak X if you have great character, city, and social depth like this.


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## Gurkhal (Nov 5, 2012)

Leif Notae said:


> Why would it be? There are many British towns names after the amount of pigs that lived there when it was founded, or the way the river stream flowed when the first man sat down and thought to build there. Besides, it gives your "kingdom" a personality. They harvest chocolate, they work the cocoa bean and it's crucial to their survival.
> 
> Sounds like a great kingdom to me.



Thanks. I suppose that some theft in this regard can be apporpriate, unless I find some even better Nahutl word of course. 



WyrdMystic said:


> And how many readers are going to speak Nahuatl?





MadMadys said:


> I'm going to do it like WordMystic did because that's a great way to do it.  In general, I don't worry so much about how to say the words in my head because after a while, I'll just recognize the word and attach the people, cities, and lands themselves to the word rather than "can I pronounce that?"  I think it should be a distinctive word that pops out on the page so when you mention it, the reader knows exactly what you mean.  So in that mindset, I'll go through them and tell you what they conjure up in my noggin.
> 
> Inswhara - Sounds more like a town or sacred place than a whole kingdom.
> Xocanayara - I think of a region so this could work.
> ...



It helps alot! I've also been thinking that Duhnir wasn't really all that good, and neither was Tenahmon. I thin that even if it sounds like a city it could work since we would be talking about city-states rather than proper Medieval kingdoms. 



Leif Notae said:


> Does it matter? You don't have to give them a definition because you already defined what they are. Who cares how many people can speak X if you have great character, city, and social depth like this.



No, I suppose it don't actually need to mean anything.

Thanks for all the good advice, please keep it coming if you want.  I'm gonna re-work the names of the kingdoms and then come back with a new list.


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## WyrdMystic (Nov 5, 2012)

Leif Notae said:


> Does it matter? You don't have to give them a definition because you already defined what they are. Who cares how many people can speak X if you have great character, city, and social depth like this.



That was my point


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## SeverinR (Nov 5, 2012)

To me, names be it people names, or place names, they need to be reasonable.

Tstutsonamniads- lots if letters that don't easily work together, its long, so I would reduce it.

I have used pronunciation promps for more difficult names, so anything can be used.
Also if it means something in a different language, that is not a problem. Many places are named and might mean something totally different then they were intended in the original language.  If you find it means something, its up to you to use that information to benefit your story or totally ignore it.  Town names usually mean something to the namers.


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## Gurkhal (Nov 7, 2012)

SeverinR said:


> To me, names be it people names, or place names, they need to be reasonable.
> 
> Tstutsonamniads- lots if letters that don't easily work together, its long, so I would reduce it.
> 
> ...



This is of course true and I recon that Xocanayara was a mouthful to much. Otherwise I agree that names usually start with some meaning to them but it also to find a proper meaning.


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## Gurkhal (Dec 3, 2012)

Well it was some time since I made this topic I reconged that should post the names I've come up with next after reading this thread, just like I said that I would do. 

Ishron
Kemor 
Charruka (alt. Charrun)
Seratti
Tenoktha
Xocatl
Anshanka
Zitzaya
Mijawa


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## Anders Ã„mting (Dec 3, 2012)

Gurkhal said:


> Inswhara



Is the H really necessary? Not sure how to pronouce it. Why not just make it "Inswara"?

Sounds vaguely Japanese.



> Xocanayara



Second A wants to turn mute when I read this. "Xocanyara."

Sounds Meso-American.



> Kemor



Not much to say, a decent name.

Sounds African or middle-eastern.



> Duhnir



Again, does the H serve any purpose? Or it just a more complicated way of writing "Dunir"?

Sounds Norse.



> Seratti



Nothing much to comment on.

Sounds African.



> Tenahmon



Another weird H. 

Sounds Japanese.



> Zitzaya



I don't think putting a T before a Z is necessary - when spoken, it's going to turn into "Zizaya" anyway.

Not sure what this sounds like.



> Anshanaka



Sounds Japanese.



> Mijawa



Also sounds Japanese.



PaulineMRoss said:


> But - nine kingdoms? No plutocracies? Democracies? Dictatorships? Republics? Theocracies?



I like it. Gives it all a stylistic coherence, and "the Nine Kingdoms" sounds good.



> And - NINE? Boy, is your book going to be complicated to read...



Eh. It's essentially what Robert Martin went with in SOIAF, right? So, it's definitely doable.


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## ThinkerX (Dec 3, 2012)

oh what the heck...

Ishron - Sounds almost middle eastern to me.  A bit like 'Ishtar', once a prominent goddess of mesopotamia. A grand religious and trade center.

Kemor - Seems generic to me.  I keep wanting to think of it as quasi Celtic for some reason, but that can't be right. Also want to think of it as a seaport, on the north shore of an inland sea.

Charruka (alt. Charrun) - Middle eastern or south asian.  Makes me think of a temple or 'holy city'.

Seratti - middle eastern. Obscure, at the edge of the desert.

Tenoktha - African. Desert city, near the edge of the map.

Xocatl - mesoamerican.  An isolated city state, deep in the jungle, with a pyramid at its center.

Anshanka - middle eastern. Dark.  Reminds me of 'Anshur', ancient sumerian deity. A forbidden city, worshipping an otherwise forgotten elder god.

Zitzaya - mesoamerican again. A trade city, several pyramids, near the seacoast.

Mijawa - african city, deep in the jungle.


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## MadMadys (Dec 4, 2012)

I'll have another go at this for you!

Ishron - A city definitely comes to mind.  If I had to elaborate, some place in or near a desert.
Kemor - Could also work as a town but I don't feel 'city' off thing one.
Charruka (alt. Charrun) - Charruka sounds like a drink that you wake up from wishing you hadn't tried it out.  Charrun is more of a name, an odd one, but not really a place.
Seratti - I could see a divine city or place with this one.
Tenoktha - Sounds like you just sneezed mid-word.
Xocatl - Jungle city of lore that probably doesn't exist but... maybe...
Anshanka - More of a name or god.
Zitzaya - Sounds like something someone would shout.
Mijawa - For some reason I think Mogwai off that which in turn makes me not think of a city.

These give perspective on what an odd functioning brain I have.


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## PaulineMRoss (Dec 4, 2012)

[On NINE kingdoms...]



Anders Ã„mting said:


> Eh. It's essentially what Robert Martin went with in SOIAF, right? So, it's definitely doable.



Doable? Yes. Readable? The jury's still out on that one...


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## Anders Ã„mting (Dec 4, 2012)

PaulineMRoss said:


> Doable? Yes. Readable? The jury's still out on that one...



First of all, I think it was implied by the context that "doable" here means "readable."

Second, even if you don't find Martin's books readable, a lot of people obviously do.


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## Zireael (Dec 4, 2012)

Inswhara - Japanese vibes
Xocanayara - Mesoamerican
Duhnir - Norse
Charruka/Charrun - Middle East
Seratti - African/Italian
Tenahmon - Egyptian
Ishron - Middle Eastern
Zitzaya - Mesoamerican (and keep the 't')
Mijawa - Japanese

P.S. Anshan(a)ka  - nothing in particular


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## PaulineMRoss (Dec 4, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> First of all, I think it was implied by the context that "doable" here means "readable."



In the context of a writers' forum, I naturally assumed that 'doable' means 'writeable'  So sure, it's perfectly possible to _write _a book about nine kingdoms, but the result might be tricky for the average reader to follow. As I think Mr Martin demonstrates.



> Second, even if you don't find Martin's books readable, a lot of people obviously do.



Martin's a brilliant writer, and he single-handedly drew me back to fantasy after many (mostly) dragon-free years, so I will always be grateful to him for that, but ASOIAF has become a monstrous sprawl, and part of the reason is because he chose to have so many kingdoms (and tell us all about every last one of them, of course). He said himself at one point, I believe, that he rather wished he'd settled on five or so (maybe tongue in cheek, I don't know). I love him dearly, but honestly, Dance With Dragons was 1000 pages[*] that moved the plot forward precisely three inches. And frankly, I've given up trying to keep up with the tsunami of names and houses and sigils and named swords and tangled relationships. Yes, he's sold several tons of books, but whether the average Joe on the street would find it 'readable' - I dunno.

[*] And thank all the gods for ereaders...


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## Phietadix (Dec 4, 2012)

I think it would be best to stay away from anything begining with the letter 'X'


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## TermiteWriter (Dec 5, 2012)

Re construction of naming languages: I've posted two pieces lately on Conlanging for Beginners, specifically on how to create a naming language.  You might find something useful there.  Find them both here: The Labors of Ki'shto'ba Huge-Head: Naming Languages


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## TermiteWriter (Dec 5, 2012)

I think I would want to add to that: Does the plot of your story (I presume you're writing a story and not just creating a world to be creating a world) need nine kingdoms?  Is one or a few dominant?  Or for example, are they all at war with each other, or forming alliances, that will make it necessary to refer to all of them?  You may find that some of them don't get mentioned very often, but they WILL need to show up on your map.


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## Gurkhal (Dec 6, 2012)

Thansk guys for all the replies. It alot more than I had expected and I am very grateful. 



Anders Ã„mting said:


> Is the H really necessary? Not sure how to pronouce it. Why not just make it "Inswara"?



I suppose I wold spell it Inswara, it probably wouldn't made huge difference to me.



Anders Ã„mting said:


> Second A wants to turn mute when I read this. "Xocanyara."



Well yeah I kind of agree with you. The whole name was probably a bit to long so I changed into into somethig easier.



Anders Ã„mting said:


> Again, does the H serve any purpose? Or it just a more complicated way of writing "Dunir"?



It was a bad idea for a name that I have now changed. But yes, probably more of a complicated way to write something than anything else.



Anders Ã„mting said:


> Sounds Norse.



That was unexpected to be honest.



Anders Ã„mting said:


> Another weird H.



Yeah, I know. 



Anders Ã„mting said:


> I don't think putting a T before a Z is necessary - when spoken, it's going to turn into Zizaya anyway.


 
I don't know. For me its a difference between Zitzaya and Zizaya when I say it out loud. Maybe not a huge difference but its there.



Anders Ã„mting said:


> I like it. Gives it all a stylistic coherence, and "the Nine Kingdoms" sounds good.



Thanks. It was kind of what I was going after.



ThinkerX said:


> Ishron - Sounds almost middle eastern to me.  A bit like 'Ishtar', once a prominent goddess of mesopotamia. A grand religious and trade center.



As a matter of fact I was indeed inspired by Ishtar for this name and the kingdom's cheif deity will of course be a goddess inspired by Ishtar (along with Anath, Kali and a few others...)



ThinkerX said:


> Kemor - Seems generic to me.  I keep wanting to think of it as quasi Celtic for some reason, but that can't be right. Also want to think of it as a seaport, on the north shore of an inland sea.



Celtic? That was a bit unexpected to be honest.



ThinkerX said:


> Charruka (alt. Charrun) - Middle eastern or south asian.  Makes me think of a temple or 'holy city'.



Yeah, you are pretty spot on. The main inspiration for the name was the Assyrian city of Dur-Sharrukin
Dur-Sharrukin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



ThinkerX said:


> Seratti - middle eastern. Obscure, at the edge of the desert.



Yep, kind of what I was imagining myself as well. Main inspiration was Hatti.
Hattians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



ThinkerX said:


> Xocatl - mesoamerican.  An isolated city state, deep in the jungle, with a pyramid at its center.



Kind of what I was looking for to be honest. 



ThinkerX said:


> Anshanka - middle eastern. Dark.  Reminds me of 'Anshur', ancient sumerian deity. A forbidden city, worshipping an otherwise forgotten elder god.



I was actually picturing more of a tribal kingdom with some African style to it. But I won't deny that your idea has a certain flavor to it. 




MadMadys said:


> I'll have another go at this for you!
> Ishron - A city definitely comes to mind.  If I had to elaborate, some place in or near a desert.
> Kemor - Could also work as a town but I don't feel 'city' off thing one.
> Charruka (alt. Charrun) - Charruka sounds like a drink that you wake up from wishing you hadn't tried it out.  Charrun is more of a name, an odd one, but not really a place.
> ...



These give perspective on what an odd functioning brain I have.
[/QUOTE]

Interesting perspectives but obviously we do not think alike.  It was very fun reading through your responses however.




Zireael said:


> Inswhara - Japanese vibes
> Xocanayara - Mesoamerican
> Duhnir - Norse
> Charruka/Charrun - Middle East
> ...



Thanks for the respons. I think I am kind of starting to see how a pattern is evolving about what sort of thing that people would expect from each kindom.



Phietadix said:


> I think it would be best to stay away from anything begining with the letter 'X'



Really? How come?



TermiteWriter said:


> Re construction of naming languages: I've posted two pieces lately on Conlanging for Beginners, specifically on how to create a naming language.  You might find something useful there.  Find them both here: The Labors of Ki'shto'ba Huge-Head: Naming Languages



Thanks for sharing. They will no doubt be very helpful. 



TermiteWriter said:


> I think I would want to add to that: Does the plot of your story (I presume you're writing a story and not just creating a world to be creating a world) need nine kingdoms?  Is one or a few dominant?  Or for example, are they all at war with each other, or forming alliances, that will make it necessary to refer to all of them?  You may find that some of them don't get mentioned very often, but they WILL need to show up on your map.



The plot itself does not need nine kingdoms as such, not right now anyway. They obviously have different strengths to them and with different history behind them and cultures within them. Right now I imagine that it kind of in flux and that they are struggling with each other in order for one of them to become the master of all the land, or just survive. 

I do agree that all of them will be shown on the map even while they may not necessarily have a large or important role in the story itself. I'm having the basis for a map in my head but I'm thinking that I shall get a bit firmer grasp on my world before I start to actually draw it.


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