# How Much Worldbuilding is Enough?



## Mindfire (Apr 5, 2013)

I like to think of myself as a somewhat extensive world builder. Its one of the most fun parts of writing for me, personally. I have pages upon pages of notes, maps, flags, charts, and tables for different characters, cultures, magic, etc. And most days I feel quite proud of this accomplishment.

AND THEN.

I look at the work of other authors and they have more characters, locations, histories, religions, noble houses, cultures- essentially more everything than I can even count. Literally. I tried to count them and gave up. My work seems hopelessly shoddy by comparison. My world feels too... abstract. To clarify, I'm not aiming at anything nearly as "grounded" as, say, A Song of Ice and Fire. I'm trying for something a bit more like Avatar: The Last Airbender the Codex Alera*** Inkworld Trilogy**** Imaginarium Geographica***** Chronicles of Narnia****** Avatar: the Last Airbender*******, which I think has a great balance between the concrete and the whimsical. But I'm at a loss about what to do. Do I just need to make MOAR STUFF? I was starting to think my world was close to completion but now it seems rather small. But I'm not sure what else I can add while staying true to my vision and without "disrupting the balance" of the world, so to speak. Should I just go into more detail? I admit I'm more of a big picture person so some details may be lacking in my work. But what details do I need and how much is enough? 







*My work does have similarities to Avatar, but I realized that a book might be a more helpful example than a television show, which has somewhat different creative principles.

**I realized that the Codex Alera might be a somewhat obscure reference and decided to choose a different book as an example.

***I then realized that the Inkworld Trilogy might be even more obscure than the Codex Alera.

****It occurs to me that my references are getting more and more obscure with each try. So I decided to pick something _everyone_ has heard of.

*****It occurs to me that while the books are good, Narnia is not the best example to use as far as careful and extensive world building is concerned, so I'm going back to Avatar. Screw different creative principles.


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## Steerpike (Apr 5, 2013)

All you need is enough for what is pertinent to the story. Anything beyond that is just extra (which doesn't mean you shouldn't have if it you want it, but just that it isn't strictly _necessary_).


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## skip.knox (Apr 5, 2013)

Are you just building a world or are you intending to tell a story? Both are legitimate activities. Whichever it is, just get on with it!

At least with a story, you know when you're done. Or can hope you'll know!  

With worldbuilding, I see that almost like a hobby--there's potentially no end to it, and the fun is in the endless doing of it. So you're never done and it's never enough and that's great.

If you intend to tell a story, though, just start writing it. As you go, you'll need to have details. Character goes to city. What sort of city? Independent? Part of a kingdom? Let's say it's independent. What sort of government? What's its economy like? What races live here? Do they live in their own districts?

You do your worldbuilding only in response to the questions for which your story demands answers, at least ideally. In fact you'll find yourself filling in all sorts of background that you don't wind up using, but that's okay.

To put all this more succinctly, there's no way to say how much is enough. More is always possible. But if you're aiming to tell a story, the story and the writing of it must always be the most important.


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## Devor (Apr 5, 2013)

You should have no more than fifteen pages of notes.  

Really, if you're not sure, you should focus more on your characters and your plot, and figure out more about where your story stands, in order to get a better image of whether your world does enough to support it.

That said, one trick I found useful sometimes was to take an item on my map or in my notes and conceptually split it in two.  A country becomes a collection city states, loosely united.  A king's leadership becomes split with a council of lords or merchants.  Then you might realize that each city-state needs a capital, or that members of the council might need some land inside the kingdom which adds even more to your world.  I find that kind of thing adds depth to the piece that exists and gives me more story potential than expanding outwards on the map.




skip.knox said:


> You do your worldbuilding only in response to the questions for which your story demands answers, at least ideally. In fact you'll find yourself filling in all sorts of background that you don't wind up using, but that's okay.



Yes and no.  Your setting is a part of your story, and it has a tremendous potential to affect your story.  At least _brainstorming_ in your world can be really useful for understanding your characters and your story.

Of course, spending a lot of time on things that don't become relevant isn't helpful for your writing, so I do think that you should mostly hold off on filling in most of the details until you know that you'll need them (which could be early on depending on how you write).


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## Mindfire (Apr 5, 2013)

Well, I suppose my real problem is that I live in perpetual dread of _the question_. 

"I really liked the book, but why do all the characters speak the same language?" 
"About how long did the dragons hold the proto-Mavarians in captivity?" 
"What's the average size and lifespan of a hyloth?" 
"When was steel invented?" 
"What's the linguistic origin of the name Meeka?"

"Um... Actually I haven't really given much thought to-"
"AND YOU DARE CALL YOURSELF A FANTASY WRITER? HACK!"

Some of my world building has actually been done in response to the thought, "Oh crap, what if someone asks me this and I don't have an answer?"


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## Devor (Apr 5, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> Some of my world building has actually been done in response to the thought, "Oh crap, what if someone asks me this and I don't have an answer?"



N'ehh.  Maybe the first one - why does everyone speak the same language? - sure, valid enough.  But the others, don't even worry about that.  Just tell readers, "The answer is in the books if you look hard enough," and if you have any fans, they'll find it for you.


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Apr 5, 2013)

> I have pages upon pages of notes, maps, flags...



Flags?  Wow.  Man, I just make that s**t up on the fly.  

E.g: _The militia of Coleridge Town marches under the...uh...the red and gold!  Yeah, that's it, the red and gold banner.  And on that banner flies the...uh...uh...well...they're on the coast, right?  The ship and crowns?  Yeah, the ship and crowns! 

Wait a minute, wasn't the Ship and Crowns the name of a tavern from one of Gary Gygax's stories about Gord of Greyhawk?  Screw it.  No one on earth made it through one of those stories except you.  

So that's it:  the militia of Coleridge Town marches under the red and gold banner of the ship-and-crowns._

Assuming my fantasies come true and some day I'm the center of attention at a big con, someone may ask, "What do the crowns stand for on the Coleridge Town banner?"  And I'll say: "Glad you asked.  There's an interesting story behind that.  I may tell it someday."

Then I'll launch into the William Shatner "get a life!" speech from Saturday Night Live.

In short, feel free to do as much worldbuilding as you want if you enjoy that as a hobby.  But for purposes of your story, I'm guessing you've already done more than enough.  If you absolutely need something that you've forgotten, you'll notice that lack very quickly, and in that case you can easily invent it as you need it.  

I'm willing to bet big dollars that GRRM makes up a lot of his s**t on the fly too.


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## Mindfire (Apr 5, 2013)

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> I'm willing to bet big dollars that GRRM makes up a lot of his s**t on the fly too.



Yes, he's admitted that he often does. But when you see it all laid out in wiki form... it's pretty daunting. And then you remember that Tolkien did all this stuff too, except he did it all with _deliberate planning_. I'll likely never be half the world builder the two of them are/were, but it never hurts to try.


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## Alexandra (Apr 5, 2013)

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> Flags?  Wow.  Man, I just make that s**t up on the fly.... I'm willing to bet big dollars that GRRM makes up a lot of his s**t on the fly too.



George Martin!?! Of course he does... s**t on the fly that is. I've designed sigils, flags, banners, shield devices, et al for my world and most of this detail likely won't receive more than a mention in _The Songs..._. I do it because tis fun and a way to rekindle old ideas, plans, and characters.


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Apr 5, 2013)

> I'll likely never be half the world builder the two of them are/were, but it never hurts to try.



True -- as long as trying to match them doesn't get in the way of actually sitting down and writing the story (not saying that this is a problem you're suffering from).

Congratulations on becoming an Istari by the way, and I like the new pic!


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## Mindfire (Apr 5, 2013)

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> True -- as long as trying to match them doesn't get in the way of actually sitting down and writing the story (not saying that this is a problem you're suffering from).
> 
> Congratulations on becoming an Istari by the way, and I like the new pic!



Thanks! I think I might adopt it as my personal sigil.


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## danr62 (Apr 5, 2013)

Mindfire flew the banner of the golden pheonix on a field of red and black. The pheonix represents the kingdom's rise from the ashes of a province Artur Hawking's empire.


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## Mindfire (Apr 5, 2013)

...who's Artur Hawking?


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## T.Allen.Smith (Apr 5, 2013)

Fabled leader from Jordan's WoT epic series I believe.


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## Meyer (Apr 6, 2013)

I think a very important thing to do is record details as you include them into the story into a database you can refer to in order to insure internal consistency.


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## Abbas-Al-Morim (Apr 6, 2013)

It's impossible to create a world as exhaustive as our own from your imagination. If it's not possible to write down or to memorize everything there is to know about our world (let alone one country or even a single person!) than it's impossible to create something that complex and intricate from scratch. 

If you want to write a book - you only have to flesh out the parts you'll need for your book. And even then - if you're a discovery writer (a term used by Brandon Sanderson for those writers who build the plot and sometimes even the world as they write) you'll probably have to do a lot less.

However for lots of people, world-building is just as important as writing books. It's a hobby in itself. Lots of writers create worlds but never write (or finish) a book. Some people even detest writing fiction but enjoy fleshing out "what-if" scenario's or creating new cultures in a pseudo-scientific way. 

Let's take J.R.R. Tolkien as an example. He did some amazingly extensive world-building but truth be told, he didn't have to write all that lore to provide a setting for his book. Building his world was his pride. I myself enjoy writing but I enjoy world-building too. 

So unless you're hellbent on using your world as a setting for a book (or two) and then dropping it, you can be very minimalistic. You'll probably continue building your world as you write (and you  notice the gaps). But if you enjoy world-building and you're not on a personal deadline to publish something, you can spend decades fleshing out your world.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Apr 6, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> "I really liked the book, but why do all the characters speak the same language?"



Same reason I speak English - it's the lingua franca of that particular region.



> "About how long did the dragons hold the proto-Mavarians in captivity?"



A thousand years! No, seven thousand years!

Or... some other number that sounds impressive but doesn't really mean anything.



> "What's the average size and lifespan of a hyloth?"



Depends. If the hyloth dies of old age over the course of this story, does it actually matter?



> "When was steel invented?"



Also, who actually cares?



> "What's the linguistic origin of the name Meeka?"



Franch-Latin, variant of Dominique.



> "Um... Actually I haven't really given much thought to-"
> "AND YOU DARE CALL YOURSELF A FANTASY WRITER? HACK!"



Look, it doesn't matter because unless you actually sit down and write your damn story, you're not a real writer anyway.



> Some of my world building has actually been done in response to the thought, "Oh crap, what if someone asks me this and I don't have an answer?"



See, this is called "intrusive thoughts", and it might be a sign of a budding anxiety disorder. It's unhealthy. _Stahp._


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## Mindfire (Apr 6, 2013)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> Franch-Latin, variant of Dominique.



I didn't realize that was an actual name. I just kinda made it up.



Anders Ã„mting said:


> Look, it doesn't matter because unless you actually sit down and write your damn story, you're not a real writer anyway.



Valid point, I suppose.



Anders Ã„mting said:


> See, this is called "intrusive thoughts", and it might be a sign of a budding anxiety disorder. It's unhealthy. _Stahp._



Planning ahead is associated with anxiety disorder?


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## Devor (Apr 6, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> Planning ahead is associated with anxiety disorder?



Sometimes.


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## Svrtnsse (Apr 6, 2013)

Write little short stories describing a day/hour/moment in the life of an average inhabitant of your world. You'll soon have plenty of more questions to ask yourself and whose answers may or may not be important or relevant.


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## Deleted member 2508 (Apr 6, 2013)

I have always found it useful to spend a few hours world building. I like to have more information than I could possibly use in a story. If I find myself getting bored, or sometimes if I'm getting too involved, I stop and start writing. Often the best ideas, and the most creative and original ones, I've had come from making them up as I write. 

I like to have a general framework when I write, but the real detail comes out when I actually sit down and write. This works for me and I can't imagine it any way. I usually also have a separate notebook to keep track of details for consistency within the story: kingdoms, laws, religions, magic, etc. are all kept in the notebook

Any amount of world building can be enough for you, it depends on your preferences. Don't let other people try and give you a 'perfect method'. Just keep learning about yourself through your work.


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## cadaha (Apr 7, 2013)

I tend to have a concept of a general world shape.  I know where each race lives (originates from), I know where the major capital cities are and how each government works in broad terms.

I have an outline of my story (major scenes I want to include) then I start to tell the story.  I find that in the telling of the story that details come out and questions pop up in my head which fleshes out my world as I go.  As my story evolves so do the world's details.

As each detail is added it also goes in my notebook to prevent loss of detail later or even incorrect data being written into the story.  If there is a golden tower in such and such a city it had better not be ivory further down the line etc.  But the fact that it is initially Golden may not be worked out until I get to the city.

I love discovering the world my characters are in just as an explorer loves discovering facts about newly visited countries.  They may know where it is and the basic make up but there are always fascinating discoveries to be made which is the whole reason behind exploration.


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## Nobby (Apr 8, 2013)

Damn you, you made me smile!

That's sort of like having a character walk into a blacksmith's and say, "I hear you get your ore from the forgotten lands of Gnurgh, but I'm not sure that Gnurghish plate is better than Flurbish, which is to say that the Gnurghish has a lower something content but is considerably less spangly than Flurbish, given that they both are provided by the guild of shovellers in F'nak" 

[deep breath]

And then going into excruciating detail into both the Gnurghish and Flurbish economies and having a love hate relationship with the guild of shovellers, who subcontract to Fred's accessories Inc.

My opinion is "Oi you, I'm writing a story here, not a concise history of everything everywhere."

I really shouldn't comment when I'm tired!


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## Sorrow (Apr 9, 2013)

For me, world building is as important in creating my story as turning my netbook on. It is also self-indulgent, and the only person who is ever going to see all of the intricate details are yours truly. But like many of the members above, I do it for my love of the world I am creating, and to explore my world fully before anyone else gets to visit  However, I am the kind of person who did every quest in Wow before moving to the next area, and who, if given the chance, would love to be GM in a D&D game (I say given a chance because I have wanted to play for a while now, however my friends are conveniently busy when I try to organise a game ). So really, I think it just depends on your personality. There is no right or wrong, just do what makes you happy and helps you to tell the story the way you want your readers to read it. Some people just use basic outlines, then off they go, free writing the story and amending through drafts to perfect their art. Others, like me, need to create the whole world and its history before committing to the story.  There is an excellent podcast, Writing Excuses (I cannot remember the name of the episode, sorry) in which you hear both sides of planning a story, and is worth a listen.

However you tell your story, remember there can always be another draft


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## wordwalker (Apr 9, 2013)

Nobby said:


> That's sort of like having a character walk into a blacksmith's and say, "I hear you get your ore from the forgotten lands of Gnurgh, but I'm not sure that Gnurghish plate is better than Flurbish, which is to say that the Gnurghish has a lower something content but is considerably less spangly than Flurbish, given that they both are provided by the guild of shovellers in F'nak"



Actually, this sounded like _good_ use of world-building if it stopped at just a line or so. This is the kind of thing that's great to add after a specific thing is introduced, just taking that moment to give it a sense of depth and then move on. (Or people could keep going if pacing called for someone to be babbling while someone else noticed something.)


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## Addison (Apr 9, 2013)

I've found a fine line between world _building_ and world _creating_. And yes there is a difference in this case. World building is you finding the building blocks of your story. Where is it set, what time period, what races, what's the area like etc. World creating is when you're going into every little detail, history and mythology of your races, names of settings that won't be used in your story, the trade economy and that type of stuff, that's world creating. A fancy term used to show the person is obsessing with the world as a possible form of procrastination. 

So if you find yourself figuring out all the materials used to make wands, the process and all that. Then you're going too far. Just lay out A -Z, flat. Not A1, A2, A3 etc.


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## Highstone (Apr 9, 2013)

I think it's not about the amount of detail you write down when you're creating historical events, places, people etc. but that it's more a case of learning, as a writer, what the most important things are and how to correctly place fragments from your notes in your story.

For example, when a character in your story enters a new city, don't start dumping every little detail on your readers as soon as your character steps through the main gate. I don't think many people will be interested enough to know what street connects to what street, how many bakers live around that square and what the history is of that particular row of cobblestones. Unless, of course, any of these things are necessary to tell your story. Still, you should try to write it in smaller chunks or have it molded into your story. If you really want to write about the suffering of a city's fishermen, have one of your characters meet a fisherman who has been suffering under the war (or something else) and have them engage in a conversation. It will help to construct the general situation of the city and it will develop your character as well.

In the end, one of the most important things that I've learned is to not underestimate your reader's imagination. Most of the time, a short description is more than enough to have someone's imagination start rolling.


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## HabeasCorpus (Apr 13, 2013)

Not that I've ever had to deal with them, but when the fanboys and fangirls come a calling with their incessant questions about this and that, refer them to the principle we all learned about in high school when reading Shakespeare... reasonable suspension of disbelief.  It's an amazing concept that truly allows us all to really dive into and enjoy a story.  Practice it.


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## Deleted member 2508 (Apr 14, 2013)

HabeasCorpus said:


> ... reasonable suspension of disbelief.  It's an amazing concept that truly allows us all to really dive into and enjoy a story.  Practice it.



I feel like you might be missing the point, or perhaps I misunderstood. I'd like to politely point out that a reasonable suspension of disbelief is an absolute requirement for a reader of fantasy; without it, the magical situations obviously wouldn't have any effect. I feel that its our job to maintain this suspension through internal consistency. Nothing draws me out of a story quicker, or feels cheaper, than the author breaking the rules of an imagined world.


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## SeverinR (Apr 22, 2013)

Enough is when all the pertinent questions are answered.
World building is unending and can be addictive.

When I can't write, I world build. You finish the item alot faster and you might even use it in the book later on or even in a totally different story.  You can get as precise as you want or (as generic), you can have fun, and it keeps the creative juices flowing.


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## ThinkerX (Apr 22, 2013)

I STILL find it annoying I had to pause in the midst of writing my story to compose a geneology.  

A geneology?  

For Sword and Sorcery?

Like anybody would notice?

But, the MC's family has a long history of engaging in imperial politics much of which echoes down to the time of the story, and as the writer, I HAD to know 'who was who' in the imperial family.  

At some point, I'm going to have to do another geneology for the MC's family.


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## Addison (Apr 22, 2013)

I've recently written family histories for each of my characters. Including side characters, and a few settings. It really helped. Not just to avoid future writer's block but to generate ideas, get a fuller picture. 

This also works if you're not sure about character descriptions. For example start a description with, "(Character name) is hurrying down the sidewalk to starbucks (or the tavern, whichever fits the setting) Inside he/she takes a seat, swiping their hood revealing messy (hair color and type). They bunch the collar under their (shape) jaw."

Or you could picture two characters together and see what comes up for which.


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## ThinkerX (Apr 22, 2013)

> I've recently written family histories for each of my characters. Including side characters, and a few settings. It really helped. Not just to avoid future writer's block but to generate ideas, get a fuller picture.



I've done a bit of that and don't have an issue with it.

With the geneology, though...well exactly one member of the imperial family appears directly in the story, and thats basically a cameo by a minor cousin.  Some of the characters talk about the imperial family now and again, and there is the small matter of a past emperor who killed or exiled most of the MC's family seventy years back...but they're in the story by way of indirect influence.


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## Addison (Apr 23, 2013)

Each writer has a process unique to them as their voice and style. They just have to find it.


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## Nobby (Apr 26, 2013)

But, surely, if You have to read back to your notes, it's too much for a reader to handle.


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## Malik (Apr 26, 2013)

Nobby said:


> But, surely, if You have to read back to your notes, it's too much for a reader to handle.



Not at all. If the reader has to check _his_ notes, then you're boned.


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## Nobby (Apr 27, 2013)

Do you read in some odd way that involves note taking


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## Mindfire (Apr 27, 2013)

Nobby said:


> Do you read in some odd way that involves note taking



That's the point he's making. If it gets to the point where your reader has to take notes, you've gone too far.


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## Malik (Apr 27, 2013)

Nobby said:


> Do you read in some odd way that involves note taking



If I'm reading anything that requires note-taking, I'm usually getting paid for it.


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