# Hybrid Authors: The Best of both worlds



## MichaelSullivan (Mar 17, 2013)

As some of you may already know, I've pretty much done it all:


Exclusive with a small press
Exclusive self-published
Exclusive big-six traditionally published

But with the release of Hollow World (in January) I'm going to be going "Hybrid." These are authors who are simultaneously publishing through self-and traditional.  And I think it is a good model for authors to strive for.

Today my article in Amazing Stories about Hybrid authors went live. You can check it out here.


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## DMHamilton (Mar 17, 2013)

It's getting hard to keep up with all the developments and changes in publishing these days. Interesting times, and as always, an interesting article! Thanks for posting!


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## MichaelSullivan (Mar 17, 2013)

DMHamilton said:


> It's getting hard to keep up with all the developments and changes in publishing these days. Interesting times, and as always, an interesting article! Thanks for posting!



Aye, it's constantly changing.  Need to keep on your toes. I'm glad you found the article interesting.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 20, 2013)

It's interesting to read from someone who has gone different routes.  If you could pick just one though, which one do you prefer the most and why?  I hope to eventually go the same route as you if possible, so I'm curious which route you find the most beneficial to you as an author.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Mar 21, 2013)

I could not read the title here without picturing Michael in a blonde wig.  

(Hey, I have twin girls; they LOVED "Hannah Montana"! )

FWIW, I completely agree that a hybrid approach is an excellent one. Be exceptionally cautious about non-compete clauses in the publishing contracts you sign, however!


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Mar 21, 2013)

Phil the Drill said:


> It's interesting to read from someone who has gone different routes.  If you could pick just one though, which one do you prefer the most and why?  I hope to eventually go the same route as you if possible, so I'm curious which route you find the most beneficial to you as an author.



I've done both.

I am not bothering to submit to publishers at this time; I am self publishing everything.

That doesn't mean I won't at some point in the future work with a publisher again, and I've been entertaining offers from some smaller publishers already, but so far I haven't seen a match that would work. As for the major publishers, I haven't yet had offers from them, and don't feel any need to wait on their submission process.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 21, 2013)

Another question:

@Kevin:  If you prefer self-publishing, is it because it's just easier and quicker for you to do?  Do you make more money doing so?  Did an experience with a publisher sour you on the idea of going that route for now?  I'm just curious why you've chosen to solely self-publish now after having gone the other way before.


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## MichaelSullivan (Mar 21, 2013)

Phil the Drill said:


> It's interesting to read from someone who has gone different routes.  If you could pick just one though, which one do you prefer the most and why?  I hope to eventually go the same route as you if possible, so I'm curious which route you find the most beneficial to you as an author.



It's completely impossible to say, and even if I could pick for myself, it would be meaningless as it could be the exact opposite choice for another writer with different goals. 

If I could wave a magic wand and make what I think WOULD be the perfect fit for me it would be to have what Hugh Howey has...a major traditional publisher doing the print rights and keeping the electronic rights and self-publishing it.


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## MichaelSullivan (Mar 21, 2013)

Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> FWIW, I completely agree that a hybrid approach is an excellent one. Be exceptionally cautious about non-compete clauses in the publishing contracts you sign, however!



Without question. My contracts took a long time to negotiate, primarily because I had to get the language written in such a way that I "could" also produce self-published works.  Publishers aren't used to authors who do this - so their contracts are built for it.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 21, 2013)

MichaelSullivan said:


> It's completely impossible to say, and even if I could pick for myself, it would be meaningless as it could be the exact opposite choice for another writer with different goals.
> 
> If I could wave a magic wand and make what I think WOULD be the perfect fit for me it would be to have what Hugh Howey has...a major traditional publisher doing the print rights and keeping the electronic rights and self-publishing it.



I guess that's true about each writer having different goals.  I'm not really clued in on how rights work.  What would be the benefit of a Hugh Howey type contract (the publisher doing the print rights and the author keeping electronic rights)?

For a hybrid author, do any of your ventures ever conflict with each other?  For instance a traditional publisher doesn't like what you're self-publishing for whatever reason?


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Mar 21, 2013)

Phil the Drill said:


> What would be the benefit of a Hugh Howey type contract (the publisher doing the print rights and the author keeping electronic rights)?



Essentially this:

Indie writers make very low print sales, because they're only selling print books online. You'll make some sales via Amazon and B&N.com - but not a ton. Traditional publishers get the books into B&N, smaller stores, and if your name is big enough into Walmarts and other big chains as well. These are markets of readers indies cannot get to by themselves. Those markets are shrinking fast, so in five years it's unlikely they will still be as big a deal as they are today. But at this moment, a writer can still gain significant new audience by reaching those other sales venues.

And the main way to do that is via a major publisher.

But why keep ebook rights? Honestly, for the money. Indie writers earn significantly more per sale than trad pub writers do. if an indie sells an ebook for $4.99 they make about $3.50. A trad pub writer whose ebook costs twice as much earns about $1.49. And it's a LOT easier to sell ebooks at five bucks than it is at ten bucks, so the indie writer has the price advantage as well.

If traditional publishers slashed their prices to match indies (i.e. both at $5), then the indie would make about $3.50 and the trad writer would make about 75 cents. When you're talking sales of a million or more copies over the life of the ebook, as some of these bigger writers are, it's a VERY big deal.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Mar 21, 2013)

Phil the Drill said:


> Another question:
> 
> @Kevin:  If you prefer self-publishing, is it because it's just easier and quicker for you to do?  Do you make more money doing so?  Did an experience with a publisher sour you on the idea of going that route for now?  I'm just curious why you've chosen to solely self-publish now after having gone the other way before.



Good questions.

It IS quicker and easier. It's also a lot of fun to manage my work in that manner. Am I making more money that way...? Depends on what I'd be making the trad pub route, and on whether my sales stay where they are at, shrink, or continue to grow at the present rate (and for how long they continue to grow). For example, my March sales are on track to be double my February sales, which doubled from January. Part of that was a flurry of new releases (the Starship episodes). Some of it is also probably luck. 

With average advances for a SF or fantasy novel being in the high four or very low five digit range, I could probably expect somewhat less than that. And that's likely ALL I would earn on that book, at least for many years. I'm betting that I can earn at least that much under my own power - and can potentially earn more.

I'm not so much soured on the idea of a major publishing deal as I am soured on the activities of many major publishers right now. It started with those nasty non-compete clauses mentioned above, which most publishers refuse to remove for most writers, but are potentially devastating to a writer's career. And now Harlequin is being sued by their writers in a class action suit for allegedly playing a shell game to pay their writers 1/4 of the royalties owed. If the writers win the suit, we might see the RWA delist Harlequin as a legitimate romance publisher, which would be all sorts of funny and probably spell the end of the company as any sort of force in the romance genre. Penguin bought out one of the best known "scam the writer" companies in the world (Author Solutions) and made the president of that company a member of their board of directors. Simon & Shuster followed that up by "partnering" with Author Solutions to generate the most excremental vanity press yet devised by that company - using the S&S name and reputation to charge enormous prices for their services, even though no S&S staff is actually involved. Then Random House launches a new line of ebook imprints which broke new ground in writer-abuse-by-horrific-contract. So much so that SFWA threatened RH with removal of ALL their imprints from SFWA preferred/recommended lists.

I am seeing a steady pattern of abusive, scammy, unethical, and just plain rotten behavior from almost all major publishers right now.

So no, I am not interested in jumping through their hoops in the hopes that maybe, a year or two from now, one will deign to publish my book, pay me a pittance, attempt to lock up as much of my future work as possible, and give me almost nothing for the privilege anyway.

When I was traditionally published before (1997), it was still a hard world, but publishers were not so active in their attempts to rip writers off, nor so blatant in their disdain for writers. Now...? Now, when things have changed so that writers need publishers less with each passing month, when publishers ought to be fighting to see which one can treat writers BEST so that they can perhaps keep a few, they're treating writers the worst that I've seen in my lifetime. It's a recipe for suicide.

While I'd still partner with one, if they came to me asking for a book and offering enough money to make it worth my while - no, right now I feel no need to try to push my work through the slushpile. I'm doing just as well without them.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 21, 2013)

Interesting answers.  I was aware of some of the issues with traditional publishers, but not aware of some of those you mentioned.  I've read about a lot of backlash against traditional publishers as of late, but I guess they're like anything else:  some may be good and some bad.  I've heard nothing but good about Tor and Del Rey over the years and there are other ones like Gollancz and Hachette that seem to have good reputations as well.  I follow lots of their authors on Twitter and such and they always seem to have pretty good relationships with their publishers.

Would the happy medium be to go with a small press?  I'm not sure how small presses necessarily work as far as contracts go, but with the small press authors I've talked to, they seem glad with how things are set up.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Mar 22, 2013)

The problem with small presses is most of them don't market their books very well. SOME do, and those are golden. But almost all do not.

If a small press is taking 50% of the income on sales, then that small press needs to be marketing those books well enough to get twice as many sales as I'd be getting on my own, or it doesn't make much sense.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 22, 2013)

I see.  Thanks for all the feedback, Kevin.  

I guess with small presses (at least people I know that work with them) the author and publisher share a lot of the marketing burden.  Small presses typically don't have the kind of resources available to promote as much as a traditional publisher does, so I guess it falls on the author a lot of times to promote their own work.  

I'm hoping for my first novel to work with a small press or a traditional publisher.  I do want to try self-publishing at some point, but I'd have to really understand all the work that goes into it before I even attempt it.  

I like this idea of a hybrid author, and I have the feeling that is what a lot of writers will become--or try to become-- in the future.


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## MichaelSullivan (Mar 22, 2013)

Phil the Drill said:


> I guess that's true about each writer having different goals.  I'm not really clued in on how rights work.  What would be the benefit of a Hugh Howey type contract (the publisher doing the print rights and the author keeping electronic rights)?



The issues here is that as a self-published author you really can't get sold through the bookstores and as such you live off only ebooks (for the the most part).  In some months I earned as much as $45,000 but only $600 - $2,400 of that was print so you are losing a huge potential portion of the market.

Publishers are REALLY good getting books into stores - they are setup for it, there is a huge infrastructure in place they can move a lot of books through that venue and since it's not a venue that the self-publishers have access to - it makes sense to have them do it.

But ebooks...are a much different matter. The distribution is pretty much the same for self or traditional.  ebooks sold by a publisher provide an author 17.5% of list price, but when they publish them direct they get 70%.  So on Hugh's book he gets $4.20 per ebook sold but if that right went to a publisher they would raise the price (as they don't want to compete canibalize their print sales). This could decrease the sales...but let's say tye price it at $9.99 67% more than the present price.  Hugh would only get $1.75.



Phil the Drill said:


> For a hybrid author, do any of your ventures ever conflict with each other?  For instance a traditional publisher doesn't like what you're self-publishing for whatever reason?



I have a provision in my contract that I can't publish any book (self or through another publisher) within 4 months of either side of their releases. This is why the Hollow World Kickstarter ends April 4th and the book isn't on sale officially until January 2014.  It allows people to pre-order now and get the books in June/July once I get the editing done. 

As for them "not liking" me self-publishing - to be honest - I have no idea.  They have not said anything to me...and I didn't go to them for "permission."  They should know that I would self-publish - after all they picked me up from self-publishing and I made many changes to my contract so that I could self-publish in the future - so it should be no surprise. It's quite possible that my editor/publisher has had some discussions with my agent and I just don't know about it.  But even if they were really, really pissed - it wouldn't change my decision. I have to do what is best to ensure I have an income - that going hybrid provides that for me.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Mar 23, 2013)

Phil the Drill said:


> I guess with small presses (at least people I know that work with them) the author and publisher share a lot of the marketing burden.  Small presses typically don't have the kind of resources available to promote as much as a traditional publisher does, so I guess it falls on the author a lot of times to promote their own work.



You're ALWAYS sharing the marketing when working with a publisher, whether you use a small press or large press. Most books produced by large publishers get very little marketing - just enough to get onto some bookstore shelves, and all of that is directed at booksellers, NOT at consumers.

If I were to work with a small press, I wouldn't expect them to do everything, any more than I'd expect a large NYC publisher to do everything. That's not how it works, although it's a popular myth. 

I would expect a small press to be skilled enough at marketing that they made up for the percentage of profits they took. That's just...common sense, right? Why would you use a publisher, if working with one meant you earned LESS on the book?


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## Philip Overby (Mar 23, 2013)

I was aware that a big six publisher doesn't pick up all the marketing for you, but I assumed that they did the lion's share of helping organize things for you such as readings, book signings, conventions, etc.  I mean as far as helping get your foot in the door.  I assume that's not necessarily the case.  Is there usually some contractual obligation on the part of the author to do a certain number of promotions for their own book?  I would imagine an author would be happy to do these things (maybe I'm wrong?) as it gets more exposure for his or her book.  

Also, with small presses, I'm under the impression that a lot of them (again just my impression) don't have the resources to promote as much, so they usually give most of the responsibility to the author.  They help promote it, of course (I'd hope?), but don't have the available connections a big publisher wold.

Something I've thought about recently:  are there any support networks for self-published authors?  I assume there are, but you'd think there would be a big network of authors who help each other promote books.  Like if they're in the same "camp" they could serve the same function as a regular publisher would be spreading the word about each other's books and volunteering to help each other out.  

For instance:  "The Mythic Scribes Network" has seven members.  Each member has a self-published book out.  They help each other by blogging, reviewing, promoting one another's books.  It could serve the same function as a small press would, I'd think, and would just put the cost of putting the book out there on the individual writer.  

There must be something like that out there.  A guild or group or something?


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## MichaelSullivan (Mar 23, 2013)

Phil the Drill said:


> I was aware that a big six publisher doesn't pick up all the marketing for you, but I assumed that they did the lion's share of helping organize things for you such as readings, book signings, conventions, etc.  I mean as far as helping get your foot in the door.  I assume that's not necessarily the case.  Is there usually some contractual obligation on the part of the author to do a certain number of promotions for their own book?  I would imagine an author would be happy to do these things (maybe I'm wrong?) as it gets more exposure for his or her book.



The language in my contract regarding promotions was basically this:  "We decide what will be done, at our own discretion, if we decide to send you on tour - you will go."  I objected to the "we say jump, and I say yes sir" language.  It took me many months to add four words , "and the author agrees"  My agent didn't think they would add them, and I wouldn't sign until they were put in.  In the grand scheme of things it means nothing...as I'm not big enough for them to send on tour. But had I "broken out large" I wanted a say in what my time was spent on - touring or writing.



Phil the Drill said:


> Also, with small presses, I'm under the impression that a lot of them (again just my impression) don't have the resources to promote as much, so they usually give most of the responsibility to the author.  They help promote it, of course (I'd hope?), but don't have the available connections a big publisher wold.



If you look at most titles from small presses the don't sell well.  Basically you are trading a good chunk of your self-publishing income to them for editing, cover design, formatting, and for saying that you aren't self.  (Also some aren't doing editing these days). To be honest, only those that are 1000% against self should consider a small press, because quite frankly what you give up does not make up for what you get.



Phil the Drill said:


> Something I've thought about recently:  are there any support networks for self-published authors?  I assume there are, but you'd think there would be a big network of authors who help each other promote books.  Like if they're in the same "camp" they could serve the same function as a regular publisher would be spreading the word about each other's books and volunteering to help each other out.



There are a lot of places where authors support each other (through advice and encouragement) but not really in the way you mean - as in I'll recommend your book if you recommend mine.  That type of "trading" doesn't help. But...if you do find an author that you really like - then by all means tell others about them and hopefully others will do similarly for you.  I was at an event last night and there was a panel of fantasy and science fiction authors.  When asked to say something about their book - each one stood and gave a brief description.  When Hugy Howey, "author of  Wool" was asked he said, "I'm terrible at self-promoting - but over there" (and he pointed at me" is Michael J. Sullivan, a fabulous fantasy author that everyone in this room should be reading."



Phil the Drill said:


> For instance:  "The Mythic Scribes Network" has seven members.  Each member has a self-published book out.  They help each other by blogging, reviewing, promoting one another's books.  It could serve the same function as a small press would, I'd think, and would just put the cost of putting the book out there on the individual writer.  There must be something like that out there.  A guild or group or something?



"Sincere enthusiasm for a book translates well...and may convince someone to buy.  Blatant "promotion" is more likely to turn someone off rather than invoke a purchase.


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## Chilari (Mar 23, 2013)

MichaelSullivan said:


> Sincere enthusiasm for a book translates well...and may convince someone to buy.  Blatant "promotion" is more likely to turn someone off rather than invoke a purchase.



I agree; and I find integrity more important than sales (though perhaps I'll change my tune in the future when I rely on sales for my income). I'd rather not have the obligation to promote a book I don't believe in so that someone else will promote my book even though they might not believe in it; then when I chose to promote a book, it's because I genuinely feel it's worth promoting and hopefully my audience will recognise that and respond accordingly. I feel I can do a better job promoting fewer books that I truly believe in than a wider range that just happen to have been written by online friends, because my audience will respond better to genuineness and integrity than promotion for reciprocation. I'd rather promote one book well than two badly.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 23, 2013)

Those points make sense.  I guess I was thinking more along the lines of if I was self-publishing, I would want to help out other self-published authors I liked and not just ones I felt obligated to.  I notice a lot of camaraderie between fantasy authors who often tweet each other and give recommendations to check out an interview with so and so or whatever.  I think these authors genuinely like each other and their work, so it doesn't come off to me like blatant promotion.  That's more along the lines of what I'd be looking for.  Not necessarily an official group, but other like-minded authors who I liked and respected, which I already know several here at Mythic Scribes.  

I'm curious, are there benefits to going with a small press in any capacity, Michael?


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## Devor (Mar 23, 2013)

MichaelSullivan said:


> There are a lot of places where authors support each other (through advice and encouragement) but not really in the way you mean - as in I'll recommend your book if you recommend mine.



I don't know that sharing a blog or other social media platform with another author would necessarily mean "I'll promote you, you promote me" in a way that should raise skepticism.  I would think it could be more about promoting a common banner under which multiple authors could be recognized.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Mar 23, 2013)

I think folks are somewhat overestimating the value of many of these promotions.

Book signings: I've done ONE, ONCE, and it was at a major MTG convention, and thank goodness I was surrounded by literally hundreds of fans of my co-author. (Me? Gack. I was brought in mostly for my much-stronger grasp of grammar and structure.) He signed quite a few books, and I even signed a few. 

But mostly, when I go to cons, I see a little bevy of writers sitting at a table looking awfully bored. And that's at cons - where most of the audience IS the target audience. Big names do well, everyone else sits there looking embarrassed and like they'd rather be anywhere else than in that seat. Bookstores are even worse, since almost no one entering the store will be part of your target audience. If you're Stephen King, people drive 200 miles to get their books signed. If you're "average midlist guy", no one does, assuming you get bookstore signings at all (which you might, if YOU organize them).

OK, let's say you pull a Joe Konrath: you go hog wild on book signings. He drive thousands of miles, hit hundreds of bookstores, and he set up pretty much the whole tour. More like a marathon of doom than a tour, really.   He was probably his usual outgoing, extroverted self - and he sold thousands of books. On which he earned a pittance. Probably not enough to cover his gas and hotel bills.

Bottom line: if you LIKE book signings, do them. If you don't get a thrill from them, pass. They aren't doing anything for your career.



Twittergangs: Yes, there are "follow Fridays" and "writer Wednesdays" and all sorts of other things. And if you look at the people doing them, almost all their followers are ALSO writers. Now, that's sorta-kinda OK, because after all, writers read too. And if you write fantasy, odds are you read it as well. But it's not your ideal audience, as they're probably too busy promoting their own book on twitter to be paying much attention to yours.

The best, most powerful twitter connections are the personal ones, not the spam. You build fans one reader at a time, through personal connections. (You can do that through booksignings, too, but it's WAY harder and requires an extroverted personality, which many writers lack.) I had someone tweet back that he had heard about Starship enough times, he was going to give it a shot. I replied. He replied. Then he replied a few days later, saying he's hooked and asking when Episode 5 is coming out! I asked him if he wanted me to message him when it was available, and he said yes, thanking me profusely.

THAT'S a connection. That's a reader. You can build that on twitter, on facebook, at cons, or even at the local grocery store. But you don't accomplish it by spamming "buy my book". People already ignore that crap.



What I said about signings counts double for convention panels and readings. If you like them, do them. If you don't, for goodness sake DON'T. I have a writer friend who goes to cons, and she HATES paneling. She panels all the time, because she thinks it's good for her career. I did a little math with her after this last con - not on the time spent at the con, since she really enjoys cons (just hates paneling) - but on the time and energy spent preparing for, angsting over, and stressing afterward about the panels. We came up with roughly 20 hours of wasted working time, which for her is something like 15,000-20,000 words of fiction.

Writing another 20k words is ALWAYS going to be a better investment of your time than paneling.   The panels are your FUN thing to do, if you enjoy doing them. And yeah, you might pick up a new reader by paneling at a con. Maybe even two, if you're fortunate! But it's not going to make up for the lost work time you spent. So don't go to cons just to get on panels. And don't panel because you think it will advance your career. Writing more words is the most effective promotion, and most effective advancement you can accomplish. Best bang for your hours. You can supplement that with other things (and should), but nothing will trump writing. I enjoy paneling, so I'll pop into a couple cons a year and either attend or sit on panels. But that's fun time for me - it reinvigorates me. If it ever stops being that way, I'll stop doing it.


OK, I think I've popped enough balloons for one day. Back to writing.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Mar 23, 2013)

On small press, I'm with Michael: there's really no point, EXCEPT in specific situations:

- Your small press is one of the few that gets their books into B&N nationwide.
- Your category of writing is one (say, scholarly work) where having a reputable small press backing the work is still important.
- You get a book accepted by one of the few small presses out there actually promoting their books.

I know one writer who published with a well-known small press. Got good editing, decent cover. Ebook and trade paperback. And in the year and a half since, she's sold less copies than I sold in the first month of anything I've ever published. That's not a "my name" thing, either; I had no name when I started this (still don't, except for a few places online where a few people know me).

Maybe her work needed more polish, or the cover is poor for the genre, or the price ($7! for the ebook) is too high, or something else. But the bottom line is, her publisher should have been able to move at least a FEW more copies over the course of a year+.

And this is a well known name among small presses, remember.

Those results seem not atypical, from what I am hearing. Most writers who do well with small press seem to be doing all the heavy lifting themselves. And if you're going to do all the marketing, you might as well get all the income too, right?

Thus my rule... When a small press asks if I'll submit something (happens at least once per convention I attend), I politely take the card and thank them. Then I vet their work by checking their last 6-12 months of releases on Kindle rankings. If I see results like: 1k, 5k, 8k, 16k, 43k, 60k, then I know that I am seeing strong, consistent marketing from the publisher. If I see results more like: 1k, 30k, 80k, 123k, 350k, 700k, then I know I am seeing writer effort and little if any marketing from the publisher.

I see VERY few cases of the former. And there's no point in signing with the latter.


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## Devor (Mar 23, 2013)

Kevin - you're not popping bubbles here, at least with me.  I've been trying to say repeatedly that if you want to get anywhere, Facebook and Blogs won't mean anything unless you make the kind of connections or presentations that will get reviews, guest posts, and so on.  But I think the question is whether there are any - let's say, reviewer networks - that exist for self-publishers, and do they have legitimacy and success.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Mar 23, 2013)

There are a lot of little writing clubs, writing lists, writing groups out there. But most of them don't publicly talk about their membership - they certainly don't promote themselves as being members of that group to readers. No real point, as readers don't know them from a hole in the wall. 

One group I belong to DOES do some cross pollination; I've hosted a guest blog for one member. Another member with a rather powerful twitter account tweets about all our releases, stuff like that. You see Konrath doing a LOT of that with his little band of writers - their characters show up in each others' books, they co-author things together, they work together in big joint promotions, etc.

There are also some writing collectives out there where all the writers actually publish under one label. Bob Mayer is doing something like this, although he owns the business. In some cases, there is some sort of joint ownership or mass partnership in place, although that seems like a greater legal risk. It's both a way to collectively promote each others work AND a hedge against fears that someday KDP could go away - but small presses will never lose the means to distribute their work.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 23, 2013)

Interesting points about small presses.  I'll have to keep your method of vetting them in mind later.  

Yeah, I don't really feel like any bubbles are being popped for me either.  I'm glad to hear what works and what doesn't from both Kevin and Michael as you guys have "been in the trenches" so to speak.  I consider this having a moment under the learning tree.  

Thank you for answering all my questions, also.  They've been really helpful.  

I've always been under the impression that blogs and Facebook aren't enough to promote a work.  But I do think networking can open a lot of doors.  Just visiting websites where writers and fantasy readers hang out for instance.  I think SFFWorld, some writers will sometimes come and discuss their books with the members there.  Making yourself accessible to readers I always think is a pretty good idea.  

I also don't want to be a spamming "buy my book" kind of author.  I always like when people do contests or other interesting promotional techniques other than just posting a link.  If it's a review on a blog or something, I'm more likely to give it a look and possibly buy it.  

One more question:  what has ultimately worked for you when promoting your books from each route, self-publishing, small press, and traditional?


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## Zero Angel (Mar 24, 2013)

This is the first I've read anyone say that conventions aren't helpful. They seem like a huge expense if they're just for fun. I'd rather go to the convention and not sit on a panel if that was the case.


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## MichaelSullivan (Mar 24, 2013)

Phil the Drill said:


> I'm curious, are there benefits to going with a small press in any capacity, Michael?



Sure, it all depends on the goals of the author. There are some that have zero interest in self-publishing - none...period.  For those, if they were turned down from all the big-six then small is a way to go.

Also there are some that like small presses better because they are more "co-operative" and allow the author to participate more. They also often offer a high royalty than the big-six (although smaller than self).

In general, most small presses don't "move a lot of books" but that isn't necessarily the goal of every writer. for some they "feel like a real writer" only if someone else signs them. As with all paths there are pros and cons to each...you just have to find what aligns best to our wants.  Also, keep in mind there are small presses that do "move a lot of books" so, it's not like it is impossible to find one - If that is a priority for you then check their Amazon ratings of small presses you are interested in.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Mar 24, 2013)

Zero Angel said:


> This is the first I've read anyone say that conventions aren't helpful. They seem like a huge expense if they're just for fun. I'd rather go to the convention and not sit on a panel if that was the case.



Conventions can be helpful. I went to Arisia a couple of months ago. I was borrowed into a panel that I wasn't scheduled to be on, and ran an impromptu "panel" when the "Self Publishing 201" session was cancelled and people (including me) didn't know and showed up anyway, but otherwise didn't do any speaking. I was propositioned by two small presses, had great chats with members of a local writing group, renewed contacts with a number of folks involved in the convention-running part of fandom, went to a few panels that were great, chatted with bunches of writers, and overall had a good time.

I also watched writers who'd signed up for book signings sit there at a table while the rest of the convention walked past them without stopping. It had to be hugely disheartening. The panels are not a lot better - every writer putting their books out on the tables in front of them, and everyone in the audience forgetting them before they even exit the room (some exceptions; if you're a GOOD public speaker, you can make enough connection in an hour panel to be remembered, but you need to be good). Meanwhile, I gave away several copies of my book and a whole bunch of little card adverts for Starship. I suspect I got more sales from that than anyone got from booksignings or panels.

Your best case from paneling at most conventions is something like 10-20 people in a room, and maybe 2-6 panels per con. So you're spending time traveling to the con and preparing, time speaking; money on the convention, travel, and hotel; to reach 20-120 listeners, a couple of whom *might* buy one of your books. (There are again exceptions: Mike Stackpole draws crowds of 100+ to his panels at Dragoncon, but that's both a huge con AND he's a decently big name who's been working that con for years now.)

Paneling pretty much never pays for itself; if that's the only reason you're attending a convention, stay home.   For me, it's the networking, listening to others, and chatting about our profession with people at a variety of levels that makes conventions fun. Panels are fun for me, too, but that's because I'm such a quiet, shy person who has trouble speaking his mind.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Mar 24, 2013)

MichaelSullivan said:


> for some they "feel like a real writer" only if someone else signs them.



Seen that, too. I understand it. But it still feels odd, on multiple levels.

When I started writing, back in the 80s, I could never have imagined I'd live in a time when the main reason to sign with a small press would be vanity.


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## Graylorne (Mar 24, 2013)

Well, at least you all have a scala of choises.

Over here in NL there are two major publishers who also run a fantasy section, and two small presses who have f&sf as ther main line.

The first two you won't get in, unless you're from US/UK or one of the big German writers. Or very lucky. There are a few Dutch writers who made it, but they're just that: few. 
The two small press are easier, but by no means automatic. They're not vanity.

In both cases it won't make much difference to your sales, those are small. For most of us to earn $500 a year on one book would be a considerable succes.

Ebooks won't be the cash flow it is elsewhere, because there's 19% VAT on them, against 6% for books.

Self-publishing is not very easy, NL has a fixed book price for all Dutch publications, and there isn't an affordable infrastructure to get your books in any bookstore.

I would bless the day Amazon came to NL, but that high VAT tariff isn't really attractive to them, I think.

So going international is an option if you're willing to invest. That's what I am doing and there are moments it's a pretty nervy business. For the rest it's a challenge.


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## Devor (Mar 24, 2013)

Graylorne said:


> Ebooks won't be the cash flow it is elsewhere, because there's 19% VAT on them, against 6% for books.
> 
> Self-publishing is not very easy, NL has a fixed book price for all Dutch publications, and there isn't an affordable infrastructure to get your books in any bookstore.



Just, wow.


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## MichaelSullivan (Mar 25, 2013)

Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> Seen that, too. I understand it. But it still feels odd, on multiple levels. When I started writing, back in the 80s, I could never have imagined I'd live in a time when the main reason to sign with a small press would be vanity.



I don't begrudge any author any goal. Konrath is all about "maximizing money" - that's fine.  Other's want to be signed - that's okay with me to.  You are right though, with the income potential of self - there is something to be said that signing with a publisher is in someways a sign of appealing to an author's vanity.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 25, 2013)

For me, I'm not exactly sure what my goal is in writing as of yet.  It's exciting to think about and good to get different perspectives from people who have been there.  I guess my biggest goal isn't so much making a lot of money, but being read.  My biggest goal was always to go into a book store and point and say, "There's my book."  I know that dream may never become a reality, due to certain elements of how things work now, but I'd like to imagine it still can.

So I guess for me, wide exposure is my biggest goal right now.  But I'm new to all this and my perspective may always change.

I've got one foot forward now at least after finishing my first first draft.  I know I still have a long way to go, but it's nice to think about all the possibilities that are available nowadays that maybe weren't available in recent years.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Mar 26, 2013)

MichaelSullivan said:


> I don't begrudge any author any goal. Konrath is all about "maximizing money" - that's fine.  Other's want to be signed - that's okay with me to.  You are right though, with the income potential of self - there is something to be said that signing with a publisher is in someways a sign of appealing to an author's vanity.



Not every publisher. I mean, Amanda Hocking flat out said on her blog that she expected to LOSE money on the $500k per book S&S was offering her. She did it to help promote her career, and going into it in that manner, it was a smart thing to do.

If I was offered a publishing deal for something like $40k or more tomorrow, I'd probably sign. I think I'd give them full copyright before I gave them a non-compete, mind you... But I'd try to wangle something, because that sort of money would let me drop to half time on the day job for a year, which would increase my writing time by a significant margin. It's not about vanity, if you have good business motivations behind the deal.

Likewise, Michael, you've said you think the Orbit deal was really good for your career - I'm sure the added exposure has helped you gain more readers, and probably made it easier to promote your work in certain venues as well.

It's all about the motivation. If you have good, career-building reasons for doing what you're doing (and they pass the wishful thinking test!) then you're on the right track. Even if things don't turn out the way you planned, you're at least working in the right mindset.


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## MichaelSullivan (Mar 26, 2013)

Phil the Drill said:


> So I guess for me, wide exposure is my biggest goal right now.  But I'm new to all this and my perspective may always change.



Well achieving that goal is certainly easier now. Lower priced book, or even free books have a readership that you wouldn't have been able to reach a few years ago - so if the money aspect isn't important then there are opportunities to get in front of a large number of people.


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## MichaelSullivan (Mar 26, 2013)

Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> Not every publisher. I mean, Amanda Hocking flat out said on her blog that she expected to LOSE money on the $500k per book S&S was offering her. She did it to help promote her career, and going into it in that manner, it was a smart thing to do.



I did as well...expect to loose money that is.  I figured about $200K...but I got much better foreign translation sales than I probably could have gotten with 100% self and so now I think I ended up making more...but who knows without playing out both scenarios. My reasons for choosing traditional are right in alignment with Amanda's.



Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> If I was offered a publishing deal for something like $40k or more tomorrow, I'd probably sign. I think I'd give them full copyright before I gave them a non-compete, mind you... But I'd try to wangle something, because that sort of money would let me drop to half time on the day job for a year, which would increase my writing time by a significant margin. It's not about vanity, if you have good business motivations behind the deal.



As long as you watch the language in the contract, and make sure other works are protected, there's no reason not to turn over a title (or two) through traditional.  It doesn't have to be all or nothing...the hybrid approach is indeed the most flexible.




Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> Likewise, Michael, you've said you think the Orbit deal was really good for your career - I'm sure the added exposure has helped you gain more readers, and probably made it easier to promote your work in certain venues as well.



Without question.  I saw my "increase in readers" tripple (by watching goodreads sheliving of my books).  And once traditional people don't look down your nose when you stop into a forum and say hi.  They are quite excited by the prospect...a much nicer welcome that encourages it to occur more often.



Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> It's all about the motivation. If you have good, career-building reasons for doing what you're doing (and they pass the wishful thinking test!) then you're on the right track. Even if things don't turn out the way you planned, you're at least working in the right mindset.



Agreed.


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