# A Lack of Understanding



## Incanus (Sep 23, 2014)

How much trouble am I in if I feel that I don’t understand people in general well enough to portray them effectively?  Is this an issue that I can ‘write my way out of’?  What I mean by that last question is–can I practice writing about people to get better at understanding them?  Or is this something that I need to take away from the writing desk?  To go out and talk with people, read up on people (psychology?), and then bring back new knowledge to write with?

I feel like my characters are too rational, not intensely emotional.  Occasionally this makes me feel doomed as a writer.  Character stories seem to be the ‘in’ thing right now.

And there’s another question.  Should I be trying to do the ‘in’ thing, or focus on my particular strengths (I like to think I do have one or two!) whether or not it is the current trend?

My short story WIP seems to have problems of this kind, but I can’t even be sure, there may be no issue at all.  This kind of frustration makes me wonder whether I’m cut out for this or not, or whether I can overcome by shortcomings or not.

**sigh**


----------



## Devor (Sep 23, 2014)

As a writer, you need to play to your strengths.  As with most things, fighting your weaknesses is usually a waste of time, _if it's really your weakness_.  But I don't take your words for granted when you say that it is.  I think it's more likely you just haven't scaled the learning curve.

I mean, if true sociopaths can fake a bit of empathy, I think you can, too.  And there are resources available to help you, like the Emotions Thesaurus, where even just the web site is helpful.

And it's not really about following the "in" thing.  If you work at it you can certainly find a niche writing just about anything, but sharing emotion is the biggest strength of the written medium, and that's not going to change any time soon.  It's what many readers are looking for.


----------



## Svrtnsse (Sep 23, 2014)

Incanus said:


> I feel like my characters are too rational, not intensely emotional.  Occasionally this makes me feel doomed as a writer.  Character stories seem to be the ‘in’ thing right now.
> 
> And there’s another question.  Should I be trying to do the ‘in’ thing, or focus on my particular strengths (I like to think I do have one or two!) whether or not it is the current trend?



Cater to your strength and do what you enjoy and what you're good at. These may not necessarily be the same things, but the result is likely to be better than if you do something you don't enjoy and which you're not confident in.

I believe that trying to do the ‘in’ thing because it's ‘in’ and not because it's what you're passionate about is going to result in a mediocre result at best. 


As for characters...
I think (hope), that this is something you can write yourself out of. The more you write a character, the better you will get to know it.
Whenever you introduce a new (important) character, try writing a few test stories with them. That way you'll learn about their priorities and experiences and you'll have a better idea of who they are. It's what I'm trying to do and I'm hoping it will result in characters that are identifiable from each other.


----------



## Penpilot (Sep 23, 2014)

From my personal experience, writing will help you get better. You just have to be ready to fall flat on your face a few... well more than a few... times. I don't know how old you are, but for me, the older I got, the more life experience I got, the easier it became to write about certain things. Some of the stories I wrote, I know I couldn't have written when I was in my 20's. 

One of the things an author must learn is to draw from within themselves. Learn to draw upon your emotions and experiences and use them as ingredients when you're cooking up your character. It's one of the things I struggled with when I was starting out. For example, you may not know what it feels like to get stabbed, but heck, I bet you know how it feels like to stub your toe really bad. You draw upon simple experiences like that and morph them to what you need. 

Unless a character has some sort of unique psychological condition, I find that writing one character is like writing the next. This isn't to say I write them with the same voice. What I mean is, for me, it's just a matter of finding out what makes that character tick. What drives a character and why it drives them is my jumping off point. It gives me enough to start writing. Once I start writing, I discover more about the character, and find the hot buttons to push to make them go in certain directions. 

I use to have trouble with making characters do irrational things too, but I figured out that there's a "logic" to the irrational. It's about setting up the parameters of a character so that a certain illogical choice is within character for them.  

For example, if you need a character to get pissed off and throw something at someone, all you need to figure out is one thing that they easily get pissed off about and makes them throw things and have another character do it. 

Again, these are things you can mine from your personal experiences. We all have our irrational moments. Think about times you've been this way and try to understand why. If you can figure out how the tumblers fell into place so that you made this irrational decision, then you can use a form of it on the page.

Sorry, this is a bit of a ramble. But hopefully you get something useful out of it.


----------



## Terry Greer (Sep 23, 2014)

I hear you - I have a similar problem. because I like to think rationally my characters are prone to also think rationally - which isn't always good.

The only way I can get out of this is to think in terms of character's WANT rather than need. these want's I then protect from anything ratonal - they WANT it so they will move anything to get it. It's a childish ego-driven want - but it helps define what a character will and will not negotiate away sensibly. The more 'weants' a character has the harder they are to deal with. But that's fine - many characters are like that in real life - selfish and demanding - wit their wants defined bu]y greed, lust, power or something else they desperately want to possess. (Note this can even be something entirely noble - such as protecting a loved one - but by making it a protected WANT it can never be negotiated away.)


----------



## SeverinR (Sep 23, 2014)

I agree with Devor, except never accept your weakness. Always work to improve it. Play to your strengths but don't ignore the weakness either.

One thing, remember you don't want average people characters. You want larger then life, special people to be your characters. Average people are boring to read about. You want them to be smarter, dumber, more spirited, more spontaneous, more exciting then average.
They can't be super human but they should be above average or better.
They need to be entertaining even if they aren't the greatest people.

Stories need to be larger then life to keep people interested, but human enough for people to relate too.


----------



## Incanus (Sep 23, 2014)

Awesome responses.  I'm feeling a little better already.  A few of these things are things I know already, but need to hear spoken back to me in a different voice.

There's a lot to say, and it may take me most of the rest of today to get to it all; anyway--

I feel like sooner or later, one way or another, I'm going to have to square these two seemingly irreconcilable concepts (as brought up by Devor):

--sharing emotion is the biggest strength of the written medium, and that's not going to change any time soon. It's what many readers are looking for.

--fighting your weaknesses is usually a waste of time

I've always known that I was going to be much more of a 'mind' writer, than a 'heart' writer.  Not that all my work will turn out 'heartless', but I feel I need to meet at least a minimum requirement (what that is exactly is not clear, admittedly).

More, later...


----------



## psychotick (Sep 23, 2014)

Hi,

Could I add one more suggestion after agreeing with everyone else. Read biographies. They may not be your cup of tea, but they should give you insight into why people do the things they do.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## Incanus (Sep 23, 2014)

A related question (from my POV, anyway):

How much can a typical reader be made to care about a character in a short story (say 10,000 words or less)?

Do 'intellectual' short stories (or those low on emotional content) presently have any commercial viability?


----------



## Jabrosky (Sep 23, 2014)

Incanus said:


> How much trouble am I in if I feel that I don’t understand people in general well enough to portray them effectively?  Is this an issue that I can ‘write my way out of’?  What I mean by that last question is–can I practice writing about people to get better at understanding them?  Or is this something that I need to take away from the writing desk?  To go out and talk with people, read up on people (psychology?), and then bring back new knowledge to write with?
> 
> I feel like my characters are too rational, not intensely emotional.  Occasionally this makes me feel doomed as a writer.  Character stories seem to be the ‘in’ thing right now.
> 
> ...


_All_ our ideas about "human nature" or how people generally tick are going to be incomplete if not outright flawed. That's why psychology and anthropology are still ongoing fields of study. Since we have so many gaps in our knowledge about the workings of the human mind, it's probably impossible to create fictional characters who perfectly mirror real flesh-and-blood people. In the end our characters are always going to be artificial creations spawned from imaginations that, though versatile, aren't working with all the facts and so cannot make everything "realistic".

As for your characters thinking too "rationally", maybe you should give them an internal conflict between long- and short-term goals. The short-term goals are the impulsive, "emotional" reactions that look appealing when they first come up but ultimately have consequences that set the characters back from achieving their long-term goals. The long-term goals on the other hand are the ones that seem "rational" or righteous.


----------



## Incanus (Sep 23, 2014)

Penpilot said:


> From my personal experience, writing will help you get better. You just have to be ready to fall flat on your face a few... well more than a few... times.



Yes, yes, yes.  I need to give myself more permission to do this.  In fact, at least part of the point of working on this particular short story was to push myself in some of the directions I haven't explored very much as a writer.  Unfortunately, my perfectionist leanings try to make me get it right the first time, despite knowing that this isn't always reasonable (Aha!  Some irrational thoughts of my own to draw on!).

I'm going to see this story through, and I'm going to learn from it, damnit!  There'll be others, and next time it will be a little bit better.


----------



## FatCat (Sep 23, 2014)

Incanus said:


> How much trouble am I in if I feel that I don’t understand people in general well enough to portray them effectively?  Is this an issue that I can ‘write my way out of’?  What I mean by that last question is—can I practice writing about people to get better at understanding them?  Or is this something that I need to take away from the writing desk?  To go out and talk with people, read up on people (psychology?), and then bring back new knowledge to write with?
> 
> I feel like my characters are too rational, not intensely emotional.  Occasionally this makes me feel doomed as a writer.  Character stories seem to be the ‘in’ thing right now.
> 
> ...



Try this >Personality types | 16Personalities

I think this whole idea is a bit lacking, with 'self-prescribed' types and generalization, but as a starting block to a character's personality it's a neat tool to get a rough draft of  a character.


----------



## Chessie (Sep 23, 2014)

Hi, Incanus. As Jabrosky said, its difficult to get imaginary people down realistically on paper. I do understand your concern though. I struggle with writing emotions as well. I feel them for the characters when I'm writing, but putting it into words is different. But that's where going back and polishing the MS is for. Its good that you are thinking of this, so you can catch this in your writing when you revise. Keep at it. Just one more thing you can improve on. Weak now, strong later. 

PS: I use the emotions thesaurus a lot when I revise. Unfortunately, I'm on my phone so I can't post the link but its in Google. Best of luck.


----------



## Penpilot (Sep 23, 2014)

Incanus said:


> I'm going to see this story through, and I'm going to learn from it, damnit!  There'll be others, and next time it will be a little bit better.



There have been short stories where I've been pushing my limits, and I just couldn't nail the story. One story, no matter how many times I would edit, it would always feel flat. At a certain point, I just said this is as good as I can make it right now and moved on. A few weeks later, I was taking a long drive and my mind was drifting, and suddenly the solution came to me. 

Went back and rewrote the story, and it worked. I'd found what was missing. Sometimes you just need to walk away for a while.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Sep 23, 2014)

I think it's a mistake to believe character stories are "in right now". It's been a major part of written, and oral, story telling for a very long time. 



Incanus said:


> How much can a typical reader be made to care about a character in a short story (say 10,000 words or less)?


Quite a lot. Good execution can get a reader to care in less than a chapter, even a few paragraphs. Ten thousand words is plenty of room for a reader to emotionally invest in a character.



Incanus said:


> Do 'intellectual' short stories (or those low on emotional content) presently have any commercial viability?


There's a market for everything under the sun, if you can interest the reader. That's the only "Golden Rule" as far as I'm concerned. It has to be interesting. 

I agree with the other posters that said it takes practice. It's not easy, for anyone, to convey emotion in writing. You have to study concepts & techniques, then work at perfecting them by trying them in your own writing. 

You shouldn't expect to naturally have an ability which takes a long time to develop. You have to work at it.


----------



## Jabrosky (Sep 23, 2014)

Incanus said:


> Yes, yes, yes.  I need to give myself more permission to do this.  In fact, at least part of the point of working on this particular short story was to push myself in some of the directions I haven't explored very much as a writer.  Unfortunately, my perfectionist leanings try to make me get it right the first time, despite knowing that this isn't always reasonable (Aha!  Some irrational thoughts of my own to draw on!).


I can sure relate to that feeling. Nothing kills a story like the fear that you won't get it right the first time. Even worse, in my case I often see what's fundamentally wrong with a story even before I finish the thing.

It might be worth examining exactly why we're so paranoid about not nailing a story down on the first try. In my case, I believe it's a fear of putting in a lot of effort into a story only to have to rewrite it all over again after a failed first draft. Maybe that's why people say that editing is the most painful part of the writing process.

But yeah, writing requires work whether we like it or not.


----------



## Incanus (Sep 24, 2014)

This is really amazing.  With this kind of input and support and all around cheerleading, I feel I almost can't fail!  That said, I'm rolling up my sleeves and getting ready to tackle this thing--there's going to be hard work ahead.

I literally can't Thank you all enough! (I used up all my 'Thanks' for the time being.)

I'd like to individually respond to a number of thoughts here--I apologize ahead of time if I end up ranting or riffing overmuch, I'm kind of feeling exited.


----------



## Incanus (Sep 24, 2014)

FatCat said:


> Try this >Personality types | 16Personalities
> 
> I think this whole idea is a bit lacking, with 'self-prescribed' types and generalization, but as a starting block to a character's personality it's a neat tool to get a rough draft of a character.



Oh, yeah.  I've been dabbling a bit with the Miggs Bryers stuff.  For myself, I test as INTJ, which for those not in the know, makes me loosely the 'scientist' type.  And this at least partially explains my present difficulties with depicting emotional content.

Totally agree that this may be useful as a starting point for characters, but not the end-all, be-all.


----------



## Incanus (Sep 24, 2014)

Chesterama said:


> Hi, Incanus. As Jabrosky said, its difficult to get imaginary people down realistically on paper. I do understand your concern though. I struggle with writing emotions as well. I feel them for the characters when I'm writing, but putting it into words is different. But that's where going back and polishing the MS is for. Its good that you are thinking of this, so you can catch this in your writing when you revise. Keep at it. Just one more thing you can improve on. Weak now, strong later.
> 
> PS: I use the emotions thesaurus a lot when I revise. Unfortunately, I'm on my phone so I can't post the link but its in Google. Best of luck.



Such great points!  I think you're right:  depending on the emotion, and the impact it has on the story, some of them at least can be added in during revision.  And this means the story isn't yet hopeless (as a story I mean--as a lesson it is becoming invaluable).

Weak now, strong later--that's beautiful, and hopefully it will be describing me.

I'll be checking out the Emotion Thesaurus in short order...


----------



## Svrtnsse (Sep 24, 2014)

I've linked this before (at least twice) on the forums, but I find that it's really helpful in making a point: Study: body mapping reveals emotions are felt in the same way across cultures (Wired UK)

Different emotions lead to different physical reactions and according to this study, these reactions may be universal for all people. 

In my current WIP I'm trying to stay away from directly calling out the actual emotions and instead describing the physical reactions, sometimes accompanied by internal monologue. The theory is that in this way the reader will draw their own conclusions about what emotions my MC is feeling, giving them a stronger/better experience of these emotions.

A few examples:


> He sat absolutely still, didn't say a word. Sweat broke out on his neck and breathing became difficult.
> 
> Something warm and cuddly nestled in his belly and his heart beat a little faster.
> 
> His cheeks burned and his mouth dried out.


----------



## Incanus (Sep 24, 2014)

Penpilot said:


> There have been short stories where I've been pushing my limits, and I just couldn't nail the story. One story, no matter how many times I would edit, it would always feel flat. At a certain point, I just said this is as good as I can make it right now and moved on. A few weeks later, I was taking a long drive and my mind was drifting, and suddenly the solution came to me.
> 
> Went back and rewrote the story, and it worked. I'd found what was missing. Sometimes you just need to walk away for a while.



I've had this kind of experience a few times, and it's really amazing when it happens.  The image of the luminous light-bulb spontaneously appearing just above one's head as this happens is pretty appropriate.  I may very well have shouted "Eureka!" once or twice!

The plan is to finish this one through, as best I can, then revise a story I completed 3-4 weeks ago, then draft a brand new story, and THEN return to this one with a fresh eye.  I guess the thing to figure out is if this current story will be worth revising or not.  It may remain 'flat', but I know I'm learning from this--I just know it--its damn near palpable.


----------



## Incanus (Sep 24, 2014)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I think it's a mistake to believe character stories are "in right now". It's been a major part of written, and oral, story telling for a very long time.
> 
> 
> Quite a lot. Good execution can get a reader to care in less than a chapter, even a few paragraphs. Ten thousand words is plenty of room for a reader to emotionally invest in a character.
> ...



I think it's safe to say that I agree with every last word of this.  What I originally said shows clearly my ignorance of the fiction 'marketplace'.  My view is more nuanced than it may appear here, I just wanted to get the ball rolling.  I'm really only mildly interested in perceived current trends, but I've been reading a few submission guidelines and this seems to be one of the main points brought up consistently.

That said, its quite wonderful to hear that there are markets for works that may not display this kind of material so fully.  Eventually, I'll have to start finding some of these.  I've no idea how at this point--I'm not quite ready yet, but I'm getting there.

I may never master depicting emotions, but making my stories interesting?  That, I think I CAN do.


----------



## Ronald T. (Oct 13, 2015)

Hi, Incanus.

Through recent communication, you and I have learned a few things about each other.  I learned that you are basically an intellectual writer, and I think you've discovered that I'm an emotional writer.  So I don't think you'll find what I'm going to say here any sort of revelation.  We each have our own styles and techniques, making life that much more interesting.   Having said that, I mean this post for those who don't know me.

Based on what I've read, I'm probably the complete opposite of many who post here.  I'm a very emotional person, and by extension, a very emotional writer.  So my problem is not in suffering from a lack of emotion, but in trying to limit what I feel so deeply as I write my stories.  Either extreme -- no emotion or too much emotion -- can be off-putting to a reader.  The goal is to find a mix that allows the writer to satisfy his or her particular needs, while at the same time making the story entertaining for the reader.  It's not an easy juggling act, but a necessary one.  And it's one that must be practiced to be effective overall.

I wonder what the ratio is between intellectual writers and emotional writers.

I think people read for two reasons -- to learn or to feel (or both).  However, I believe a need to be entertained is at the heart of all reading.  Learning something new, or having one's emotions tweaked, can provide that entertainment.  Failing to supply one or the other of those reader motivations limits a particular segment of readership.  Lacking both seems a sure way for an author to see their work fade to obscurity.

But what do I know?  I'm just a hermit in the woods.

As always, my best to all of you.


----------



## Heliotrope (Oct 13, 2015)

Ronald T I'm also a highly emotional writer. I tend to be much more character driven than plot driven. 

Incanus, I highly suggest picking up some of Donald Maass' books on writing if you can. I know, I talk about them and quote them ALL the time to people here, but it is because I feel that he really has important things to say about developing characters and stories that have high emotional impact. I think there is a ton of stuff out there about how to use structure/plot to it's maximum benefit, but Maass gets back to the human element of writing, which I think is very important. He gives a ton of activities and exercises that we can use to create depth in our characters. Real, hands on, exercises. 

I also like to read short stories of the Literary fiction genre to give me a better understanding of how other authors play with their character's emotions. The online magazine Crazy Horse has some great stories. Check out the link and read "You'll apologize if you have to." 

Number 85 | 

It is an excellent story about a boxer, written in a very sparse/intellectual style, yet conveys a vast array of conflicting emotions that really ties the reader to the character. Reading these stories really help me to analyze my own characters. 

I actually try to stay away from Meyers Briggs and personality tests. They are too generic. What makes a person who they are, really? And what makes them interesting? We don't see people as INFJ's or ESTP's or whatever. We see them as flesh and blood. Limiting ourselves to certain stereotypes isn't helpful. 

Maass gives the advise that the "secret to standout characters is their uniqueness. It can be developed in any number of ways, from their appearance to their opinions. Principles, perplexing quirks, and inner puzzles all can help, but are too often are shortcuts and substitutes for the harder work of building standout characters from the ground up…. Making a character different than any who's existed before begins with making that character like you, only more so. The store of individuality at your disposal is your own incomparable self. Borrow it, but blow it up. Let yourself loose. The more singular you become on the page, the more your readers will see themselves there, too. Look, we're all crazy, sane, and sublime in the same ways as you…" (Maass, Writing 21st Century Fiction, pg 104)

He says that using the opposite of what the reader expects can be HUGELY beneficial. For example, what if the little old lady in the library suddenly took a gun out of her purse? What if you learned that your old Aunt Ethel who makes the best blueberry muffins used to be a stripper? What if you learned that your neighbour who is so particular about his lawn being perfect was once a navy seal? What makes people unexpected is also what makes them more human. 

The same goes for emotions. Try to use unexpected/ conflicting emotion. Sure we all have the hairs on our neck stand up when we are afraid, but that is boring. It is expected. What makes a person really human is when they show us something unexpected. 

"Julie froze in the darkness. She could feel each hair on the back of her neck rise and bristle. She shuddered, then smiled. She loved this. The exhilaration of the fear. The sound of her her pulse in her ears. If she leaned back, every so slightly, she might brush against _something_. Being so close to death only made her feel more alive." 

Crappy writing courtesy of me, but you get what I'm saying. Give the reader something they don't expect and your character becomes more real. 

Whew. I have a passion for emotion and characters so I could keep going. But I will stop now.


----------



## Incanus (Oct 13, 2015)

Oh, this old thing?

Yeah, this was me over a year ago.  I never did finish the story that got me going on all this (sitting at 4000+ words, it's not even half complete).  It was this mini-crisis I had that led me to understand that I'm squarely on the intellectual side of the spectrum.  I've sort of made my peace with the issue and have moved on, so to speak.

Still, I'm doing the best I can.  My novel will contain some pretty dramatic moments and already has a good deal of character conflict.  I think I was doing things a bit backwards back then--trying to drum up emotions out of a particular situation.  Whereas now-a-days, I'm setting things up so that conflict and emotion result naturally from the premise.

I've learned quite a bit over the last year, mostly from hands-on work, but with much thanks going to this site and its members.

Edit--I am sort of a fan of the Meyers-Briggs thing.  Of course its 'generic'.  That's the point.  It's not the be-all-end-all of personalities, just a jumping off place.  If you're familiar with it, it should come as no surprise I test as INTJ, the scientific type.


----------



## Ronald T. (Oct 14, 2015)

Hi, Heliotrope,

I knew there must be others who consider themselves "emotional" writers.  I couldn't believe I was the only one.  And my novels are also quite character driven.  But, hopefully, I infuse them with a sufficient amount of action and adventure.  Just as I'm sure you do with your stories.

I have a couple of Donald Maass' books, and I found them very helpful and informative.  I also met him at the BEA in LA a few years ago.  I ask him to sign one of his books, which I had purchased previous to the Expo.  He did so with a gracious heart.  And I was tickled to find that he wrote an encouraging and personalized note to me as a struggling writer.  It's probably what he does for most hopeful writers, but it was quite a thrill, nevertheless.

Donald Maass suggests a particular writing technique that I agree with whole-heartedly.  That is -- dig deep, feel the emotions and the passion, and be true to those feelings in your writing.  

That is something that comes very easy to me.  In fact, my problem is in making certain I moderate my deeply-felt emotions, for fear that I might alienate readers who find such writing far too emotive.  

As Incanus and I have discussed, it's about finding a satisfactory balance.  Search for a way to combine the intellectual and emotional aspects of writing, but never betray your natural instincts.

I believe that readers are smart enough to know when an author is not being truthful.  

So practice that balancing act.  Write from the heart and the intellect.  But most importantly...be true to who you are.

But what do I know?  I'm just a hermit in the woods.

As always, my best to all of you.


----------



## spectre (Oct 15, 2015)

The most important character is you. Your influences may take a backseat to what you want to portray at times and that is where the danger lies, not being able.to portray anything but what you see. Step outside of your interpretations and take in your vision. It helps to have real world experience when you want to fashion realism but even then only if you can write a scene so that the correlations of emotion, logic, and pressures are believable. If people have a hard time believing what you are writing it could only be your setting. A lot of artists do well in stereotypes so maybe you can garner practice from creating cutscenes versus immersive ones and that practice might coax a writing style out of you that best befits you.


----------

