# Rugged or Magical?



## AlexanderKira (Nov 7, 2011)

So after finishing book five of A Song of Ice and Fire I had decided that I was going to write an epic fantasy novel that was going to be rugged, filled with intrigue, and had great character development, and best of all...I was going to kill off characters. Then I began, and still am, reading The Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson, and his magic is so interesting and his world so vibrant and magical, it really gets to me. So I thought, "Why not combine the too?" I want to create a world with magic as unique as Lashings in The Way of Kings, with the intrigue and sheer genius of A Game of Thrones, with the pure story-telling of The Name of the Wind. I am currently about to start world building, and I have no idea to even start with this. Any hints?


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## Kit (Nov 7, 2011)

No advice, but I have to chuckle to think how many writers are gleefully and savagely killing off their characters left and right due to George's influence. I'm sure it's amusing George too.


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## Wordweaver (Nov 8, 2011)

I would start with the world itself, as in the locations and the people, and figure out how to incorporate the fantastics afterwards. For example, take a realistic snapshot of the European high middle ages, which were inherently _rugged_ what with the Crusades and Black Death, as well as any number of daily "rugged" conditions (that were considered mundane then, but barbaric and  uncivilized now), fill said snapshot with believable characters that are tough enough to survive in that environment (and some who are not, and therefore die. Horribly).

Once you've got a bad ass enough world, add magic. I'd skip unicorns and fairies and go straight for the rougher stuff like warring gods and demons, but incorporate them in the human (or whatever) society. Maybe a corrupt deity plays the shadowy hand that manipulates a kingdom by imbuing the mad king with godly knowledge? General kidnaps an oracle to help lead his conquering army so he never loses? Etc.

Anyway, if your story ends up as dope as your description (a world with magic as unique as Lashings in The Way of Kings, with the intrigue and sheer genius of A Game of Thrones, with the pure story-telling of The Name of the Wind), I'd like three signed copies.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 9, 2011)

Aim for "unique." That is, why not find your own combination of what you like (ruggedness + magic)?

As far as great character development and killing characters off goes, find your own way to combine those aspects too.

I won't toot my own horn much about my first novel, which I honestly think could benefit from some polishing. But one thing I am proud of is the way I killed off my first protagonist. It happens when you're 80-90% through the story, and by that time, the main character has met a lot of friends and allies. None of them die (other than some nameless peons), so the reader feels like the hero's friends are "safe." Then comes a quick, unpredictable death with a little harsh reality of war: no time for last words or drama--suddenly a friend is a corpse. (Feedback: "didn't see it coming" + "bummed me out.") There was a lot going on in this scene, and it had more to do with the main character having to face his fallibility and limitations.

Oh... and one more thing: to make the death seem genuinely sad, I gave "guy-who-dies" the personality of a real life friend. The result was a fun, likable character that I really didn't want to kill off!

But enough about me. Let's look at a great example of protagonist-killing that you've actually read:
Eddard's death was predictable, but in a good way. You might've asked yourself, "How's he gonna get out of this one?" ... "Wow, he's really screwed now! I wonder how he'll get out of THIS mess!" ... (CHOP!) "Oh." You're not even being led on by Martin, but you want to believe Eddard will live. This death scene is brilliant! (I saw it on HBO first, but a friend who read it first had those same thoughts.)

My advice--and I say this not as an expert and/or wannabe author, but merely as someone who knows what he likes--every time you kill off a major protagonist or antagonist, make it meaningful to both the main character and the reader. What reaction are you aiming for with this death? How is it totally different from the last time your hero won a battle?--or lost a friend? How does this death add to your story?


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## Kit (Nov 11, 2011)

Thread hijack!!!!!  

(Caution- spoilers ahead for Song Of Ice & Fire, Mira Grant, Stephen King, Shirley Meier....)


George surprised me with Eddard's death in several ways. 

First, a lot of writers simply never kill off major characters- so the first time they do so, there's that shock- and loss of naÃ¯ve trust (ha ha). Eddard was one of the earliest POV characters, so in my mind that kind of sets him up to be around for the duration. 

Secondly, it seemed like the story was setting him up to be handling his end of one of the most major and complex plot lines- so when he croaked, there was not only the loss of him as a personality, but the whole "but.....but.... Now who is going to....?"  There was such a can of worms set up with that plot line, and we were all dying to find out where it was going to go. I think if I had a juicy can of worms like that set up in my story, I'd have a hard time doing what he did there. Eddard didn't even have any allies to take up that task in turn, so the entire plot line was left hanging there breathlessly unresolved like a big Taleus Interruptus. I feel that a big part of the impact was not losing HIM, but "losing" that plot line. 

By that time we were also emotionally invested in his two daughters, too- so their having their fate suddenly on the chopping block like that was further reader trauma.

Another thing that drives me crazy is that it appears that Eddard was the only one who knew the truth about Jon's parentage, altho I'm still waiting for someone else to pop up and blow *THAT* out of the water.....


In one of Mira Grant's Zombocalypse stories (spoilers coming)....She killed off the POV character about 2/3 of the way through- the one one who was narrating the story in "I/me" language. That really spun me. It was disorienting. "Wait a minute- you can't **DO** that!!!?!" I felt betrayed at the time, but now I can see that she did a heck of a job blindsiding me with the death.

I've read a lot of books where the hero or beloved sidekicks die in the end (including pretty much every nonfiction tale 
about cuddly dogs and cats), but the most harrowing mid-story death for me will probably always be Stephen King's The Stand (more spoilers coming............). When he killed Nick, I cried bitterly. Half the book was left, and I was thinking, "Do I even want to finish this at all now? What could be left?" Not because it wasn't good, but because I felt so shocked and betrayed and morose. That was twenty years ago and I am still ticked off about it. If I ever meet that guy, the first thing I'm going to say is, "You rat bastard, I hate you, how could you kill off Nick like that?!??!"

Another good- well, not good, but gut-level shocking and wrenching- mid-story death: Shirley Meier's Shadow's Daughter. (beware, more spoilers....)  The character in question is being released from unjust imprisonment after other main characters busted their butts to save him, and we're all breathing a sigh of relief- then........    That one was shocking because just when you thought he was saved, a completely senseless and monsterously cruel unexpected death dropped out of the sky on him (and us).  That was another one that left me unwilling/unable to accept that the character was really dead ("You've got to be kidding....you can't do that...." Paging ahead looking desperately for the guy to resurrect or something...)

I think there are a lot of good lessons here for us as far as how to kill off a character *well*. I'd love to be able to write a death that a reader will still be torqued off at me about, twenty years after reading the book.

What are some of your favorite mid-tale deaths, and what made them affect you so movingly?


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## TWErvin2 (Nov 11, 2011)

*AlexanderKira*,

I've had success starting with a plot idea/a point of conflict, build the world from there, and then populate the story with characters. But what has worked for me, others may find doesn't. They may start with characters and then the world comes next, with the conflict last.

My second novel in the _First Civilization's Legacy _series has been released in ebook form and will be available in print in about a week. Like the first, there is war, political and strategic intrigue, heroism, friendship, loyalty and suffering and death (of characters). But to get to that point, I started with one thought: What would happen if a dragon encountered a WW II aircraft in aerial combat? From there I devised the world where such an encounter could take place, establishing the immediate conflict and the backdrop for the conflict and story, then the characters came in to tell the story, especially the POV character.

Good luck moving forward.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 11, 2011)

Kit said:


> ...it seemed like the story was setting him up to be handling his end of one of the most major and complex plot lines- so when he croaked, there was not only the loss of him as a personality, but the whole "but.....but.... Now who is going to....?"
> 
> ...part of the impact was not losing HIM, but "losing" that plot line.


Another great example of how brilliant this death is! Instead of having some sort of "formulaic" resolution, you're left hanging. Not only does this give you a harsh reality of death (sometimes when people die, their goals/ambitions die with them), but you also feel a sense of loss because of all the things that can't (?) be accomplished without Lord Eddard Stark.

Also, Kit, you call that a thread-hijack, but considering the OP wants to kill off characters--protagonists, I assume--I think it's topically relevant* that you offered detailed examples of specific mid-story deaths along with the mixed (?) feelings you had about each. I assume "mixed" because you felt betrayed, but I can't help but wonder if you also admire the boldness of some of these authors... even if you did call King a bastard.


(*I also think "topically relevant" is superfluously redundant.)


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## Elder the Dwarf (Nov 11, 2011)

Haha "superfluously redundant".  Enjoyed that one.  When Eddard died I was pissed.  Later in the series I got more and more pissed.  And yet I continued reading.  Therein lies Martin's brilliance.


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## Kit (Nov 12, 2011)

I'll tell ya one thing, if he kills Arya, George is going to have to go into the Witness Protection Program. He could be in the deepest wilds of Burundi, and some naked native is going to pop out and scream, "You sonofaho, how could you kill off Arya!" and come for his ass with a bone machete.


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## Kit (Nov 12, 2011)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> but I can't help but wonder if you also admire the boldness of some of these authors... even if you did call King a bastard.



{grumble} King will *never* be off the hook with me for that.... I would've liked the book JUST FINE without that, he didn't have to do that. {grumble} I'll also make the point of calling him "Steve-O" because I read that that drives him nuts.


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## Devor (Nov 12, 2011)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> But one thing I am proud of is the way I killed off my first protagonist. It happens when you're 80-90% through the story, and by that time, the main character has met a lot of friends and allies. None of them die (other than some nameless peons), so the reader feels like the hero's friends are "safe." Then comes a quick, unpredictable death with a little harsh reality of war: no time for last words or drama--suddenly a friend is a corpse.



Spoilers tags?  I'm still on page twelve!


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## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 12, 2011)

Devor said:


> Spoilers tags?  I'm still on page twelve!


Oops... well, the sample chapter doesn't even introduce this guy.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 12, 2011)

Kit said:


> {grumble} King will *never* be off the hook with me for that.... I would've liked the book JUST FINE without that, he didn't have to do that. {grumble} I'll also make the point of calling him "Steve-O" because I read that that drives him nuts.


Oh... my mistake then. But at least you didn't send a naked native* after him.

*(I'm sure Maine has them. They're just more well-hidden than the ones in Oregon.)


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## Kit (Nov 13, 2011)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Oh... my mistake then. But at least you didn't send a naked native* after him.
> 
> *(I'm sure Maine has them. They're just more well-hidden than the ones in Oregon.)



Thread Hijack #2- SOIAF tangent:

Oh, I'm not going to send an assassin after George- I'm braced for his tricks now. I do love Arya, but I think my fave char is Tyrion- whom I don't think is going to get offed, because he's having way too much fun with him. I have also been convinced since several books ago that Tyrion is going to end up one of the three "heads" of the Dragon.

I'm more worried about one of my other favorites, Barristan the Bold. I fear that his honor is going to get him killed.

BTW, George is not in Oregon, but Santa Fe New Mexico (at least last I knew). I used to be in a church group with his wife. Fun fact: her favorite character was Sansa- for which I gave her no end of grief.  My ex-BF was annoyed to hear that, because he is known to deliver long firey monologues on why Sansa is a putz and needs to die as horribly as possible. I said, "He won't kill her- his wife will plead for her life!"


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## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 13, 2011)

I meant that while Maine likely has unreported nudists deep in a forest somewhere, Oregon is full of "naked natives" riding bicycles; hanging out in backyards, parks, town centers and school grounds; getting photographed in nothing but a horse carcass...

My comment had everything to do with your "naked native" comment and nothing to do with George, but that's a very interesting tidbit about you and Mrs. Martin in the same church group! That beats my R.A. Salvatore connection (my uncle = his dentist).


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## Elder the Dwarf (Nov 13, 2011)

Kit said:


> Thread Hijack #2- SOIAF tangent:
> 
> 
> BTW, George is not in Oregon, but Santa Fe New Mexico (at least last I knew). I used to be in a church group with his wife. Fun fact: her favorite character was Sansa- for which I gave her no end of grief.  My ex-BF was annoyed to hear that, because he is known to deliver long firey monologues on why Sansa is a putz and needs to die as horribly as possible. I said, "He won't kill her- his wife will plead for her life!"



So disappointing!  Sansa blows!


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## Kit (Nov 13, 2011)

LOL...... But think of the possibilities..... Wife leaves cap off toothpaste tube one too many times...... Whoops: Sansa's dead.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Nov 13, 2011)

Elder the Dwarf said:


> So disappointing!  Sansa blows!



Sansa's not that kind of girl!... much to Littlefinger's chagrin, I'm sure.


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## Elder the Dwarf (Nov 13, 2011)

Haha laughing at both of you.


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