# That moment when you realise that your "Hero" is worse than your "Villains"



## WeilderOfTheMonkeyBlade (Oct 8, 2014)

Today, I was just thinking about my next book - Men Die - Book 3 in the Strings of Holly and Oak cycle, when I realised that my character, who I'd always known was a "Likeable bastard", might actually be worse than some of my "villains." As a rule, I tend not to go for one "Big bad" but it was a slight shock when I noticed this. 

My hero is all about revenge. There is a massive war going on in the back ground, one he gets dragged into, but it is about him getting revenge and trying to rule his "rightful" country. And all he cares about is that. He'll happily let the world burn, and he'll do anything to get his way - killing anybody, men, women, children. He almost rapes someone, but is stopped as his army is attacked by his enemies. He kills his uncle because he has suspicions that the man is trying to take his throne. 


Oh, and I think that my hero may also be slightly sociopathic ( is this a word? It should be) 

I don't know if anyone else has come across this. Obviously my "villains" aren't lovely and don't fart roses - one, the Sidhe lord who started the whole thing, tried to turn himself into a god and created a religion that killed millions, but he is a nice man. 

Anyway, I found this interesting. What are your thoughts? Do you like this or is it off-putting??????????????


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## Gryphos (Oct 8, 2014)

I'm curious, how exactly did you ever think that bastard was 'likeable'?


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## WeilderOfTheMonkeyBlade (Oct 8, 2014)

lol  It's really how I see him. Sure, he's not a nice piece of work. I've just read again what I wrote, and yes, it comes across quite hard there, and obviously yourself, good sir, isn't privy to living with the character for about a year. You don't see his obsession with revenge - his disappointment when he realises that's all he has in life, his worry when he kills without feeling anything. 

He is, and I will defend this, Likeable. I was never wanting to write a nice character, but a character does not have to be nice to be liked. Walter White. Jamie Lannister. Everyone from Joe Abercrombies work, a lot of Malazan characters? And it's a brutal world he lives in. As for the rape/child killing. (I just read this again, and NO THEY ARE TWO SEPARATE THINGS. The Woman is around the same age as him)
 War is like that. It really sticks in my throat when one army storms a city, a brutal, terrifying fight....and nothing happens. The release of all that terror and everything - it has to go somewhere. Throughout history, the attackers of a castle, city, if they win, get to do what they want. it is, in essence, their "prize." I'm a student of Bernard COrnwell, and he really shows you the truth of war - that it sucks. 

I appologise if I seem a bit bitchy in my defense of my character - stupid isn't it, after all, I'm the one who started this thread? But because I live with him, and I hope, if anything comes of my novel, the readers will as well, they can accept this. I do, I've accepted Skaldarean for what he is - a broken, deeply scarred man. And so, it came as a revelation that perhaps those that might be seen as the villains might be better than he is. 

Anyway. Thanks for replying, if at least because you've got me thinking and seeing Skaldarean from a new perspective. (Might I add that it is First Person, so you see his reasoning and his side)


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## Mythopoet (Oct 8, 2014)

WeilderOfTheMonkeyBlade said:


> As for the rape/child killing.



Wait, wait, wait... This character rapes women and kills children and you think he's _likeable_? I suppose you may technically be correct. As long as there is one person (in this case you) who likes the character, the character is technically able to be liked. But seriously? How do you expect readers to root for a guy who commits such atrocities? I'm telling you right now, even a hint of rape is going to have most female readers squarely against him and you. This guy sounds completely messed up and not at all the kind of character I could like or relate to or support in any way.


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## WeilderOfTheMonkeyBlade (Oct 8, 2014)

Chronicles of Thomas Covenant? In that Donaldson actually lets Thomas Rape Lena, a young girl. In mine he almost does, a woman whos sort of thrust upon him because he's carried away in the heat of battle and everything. He doesn't actually, there is no actual rape involved. I see that as me pussying out but I couldn't actually let him do that. And as for the child killing. He does it once, I think. And that was by accident. His friends were being attacked - he has about three friends he'd die for, and nobody else. He spends about a minute trying to feel sorry for his actions, but doesn't - he blasts in a window to run through this building, and a kid in the room gets killed by the flying splinters.

I hope that you guys aren't getting the impression that I'm some kind of weird, sadistic freak. I'm really not! I feel quite worried that I'm coming across this way. But my character, yes, Mythopoet, he is messed up. And he knows it. But he can't do much to stop that. His parents were killed when he was eight, as was his family and about three hundred guards, retainers and servants. He killed his first soldier that night. When he was eight. He then spent the next fifteen years fantasising about killing the person who murdered his family.  I think I'd be messed up if that happened to me.

Obviously I'm not trying to write happy fantasy. It is meant to be dark and grim. And in malazan/Abercrombie/ A song of Ice and Fire we've got mass rape and torture. ANd those are popular series. But, that aside. I'm massively thankful for you guys talking to me and opening up this dialogue. 

Also, this isn't a misogynistic piece of work. In many cultures women fight and rule, often better than the men. I've many strong female secondary characters. And in one culture, as sort of reverse medieval Catholicism is occurring, with the women seen as the heads of the families, as priests and everythnig important.


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## Gryphos (Oct 8, 2014)

I personally am not a huge fan of anti-heroes. To me, it's difficult to root for a protagonist purely on the basis of them being slightly less shitty than the villain. I want to root for good people with good morals who fight for what's right. Too often I think people try to create 'interesting' or 'complex' characters, and end up just making shitheads.

As to your character, the accidental child-killing is fine (it's an accident after all). The almost rape is rather questionable, but if he knows not to because it would be wrong, if it's his logical conscience that stops him, it's fine, even interesting. If not, he's kind of a shithead. His attitude that you described, being content to let the world burn, that makes me not like him. That's a villain's attitude. The way you're putting it, it sounds like he wants to be a good person, but physically can't feel sympathy for people. If you emphasise that, it's a good direction to take it. Have him fight against his selfish need for revenge, condemning himself for being a shithead but unable to help it. Then you'll have a pretty cool character.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 8, 2014)

What is it that makes your character likeable? You've mentioned his bad sides and the reasons for them and it's quite clear he's somewhat messed up. You also mention that he's likable, but I haven't really seen any mention of why. What does he do that makes me as a reader identity with him and his situation and cheer him on. What does he do to make me like him?


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## WeilderOfTheMonkeyBlade (Oct 9, 2014)

Svrtness. Well....This is getting pretty big. I honestly just started this thread because this was something that struck me when I was at college yesterday - that some of the methods and things that my MC does on his pursuit of revenge can be construed as as bad as what some of the antagonists do, if not worse. 

I never thought to think about what would make him like-able. If I was thinking along those lines, then I could easily have named this thread "When you realise that your villains are as like-able as your "hero"

BUt, I might as well offer you an answer, though I fear it'll be a bad one. Even 2d characters can be discussed for quite a while- Rand al'Thor anybody? And I like to think that my characters are more like real people. I certainly see them that way, not as plot-devices or anything else. 

But what makes me (or you) Like Skaldarean? Good question.  There's his pride, random acts of stupid, worthless kindness, his arrogance and terrible jokes, the happy, simple friendship and banter with his few friends, his sarcasm - both at other things and himself - he sees his pride and arrogance as a sham, put on too fool the world, and he does enjoy putting on that play. And I enjoy watching him do so. 

And there's his deep, bitter sense of pathos, of sadness, of knowing that he isn't better than his fellow lords - two in particular stand out. Of knowing that he's got blood on his hands. How he torments himself and worries  when he feels nothing as he kills. The sorrow he feels because he's unable to extend compassion beyond a small group of people - his blood-brother, his Guard and his sister. All of whom he'd die for in a second. The slow realisation that he was happiest as a mercenary, working to get enough money to buy a sell-sword company. When he realises that he's blundered through the best times of his life.  

He has dreams - creating a school for magic users, becoming a woodcarver or a blacksmith. Just having his land, living in peace. Having friends. And he knows that, whatever he does, he wont get "fixed". The slopes of despair that he falls down every now and then, and then his struggle to pick himself up ; with the mentality of - if I'm never going to be good, then I'll do my damned hardest not to be bad.


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## WeilderOfTheMonkeyBlade (Oct 9, 2014)

I dont know, though. For me, this works. Obviously, I wouldn't be writing him otherwise. Whether this works for you, or for anyone else. That's not up to me to decide. Hopefully you can respect that choice. 

Also, some people are more drawn to (as R.R. Martin put it) Bastards, Cripples and Broken Things. I am. I like anti-heros. I like bitter, violent, sad, selfish, torn people. OTher's, no. They don't enjoy that. And that's fine. 

Take Gryphos for instance. I reckon we could both read each others work, and enjoy each others (Or I'd enjoy his. He might find something half-way good about mine...). I might even Love Gryphos' work. But would it soothe that deep, personal itch in my heart? Probably not. And the same for Gryphos if he read mine.


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## K.S. Crooks (Oct 9, 2014)

What might help people understand why you or other people should like this character is if there is a tragic event in his past that explains why he is the way he is, also having something that is a weakness for him emotionally could help. I think there needs to be some way in which your character will risk his own physical or emotional well-being for someone else in order to make him not seem so selfish and become more likeable. Anti-heroes are great but they all stand for something that is not self-serving. Even Todd McFarlane's Spawn used evil to do good.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 9, 2014)

I guess there's more to the character than it seemed at first. As long as there's some depth to him that makes him seem real/believable I think it will be easier for readers to connect with him. Then again, I haven't actually read the story at all, so I only have your descriptions here to go on.

I might have read something you posted in the showcase a while back, but as I recall that was more action oriented then character driven.


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## Fyle (Oct 10, 2014)

K.S. Crooks said:


> What might help people understand why you or other people should like this character is if there is a tragic event in his past that explains why he is the way he is, also having something that is a weakness for him emotionally could help. I think there needs to be some way in which your character will risk his own physical or emotional well-being for someone else in order to make him not seem so selfish and become more likeable. Anti-heroes are great but they all stand for something that is not self-serving. Even Todd McFarlane's Spawn used evil to do good.



There was always Robin Hood as well. Not sure stealing is "evil" but, ya know. It's bad to do good.


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## psychotick (Oct 10, 2014)

Hi,

Not having lived with the character as you have, I'd have to say I'd be worried about your MC as coming off fake. Not as unreal in terms of believability. But fake in terms of who he pretends to be. All these likeable traits you seem to want to give him, they sound when you put them up against the bad things he does, as a sort of mask. I tend to think that what people do says more about them than what they say.

There's a line from a book somewhere that I read - can't remember where or exactly how it goes. But in essence this nazy was trying to portray himself as doing something good by letting a few people go. And he gets caught by a woman who tells him that all he's doing is pretending. The true man is the monster - he just wants to imagine himself as something better. To make himself feel good by little acts of kindness.

Now you mentioned Thomas Covenant and the rape. Well TC is not portrayed as a hero. He's portrayed as a broken man cast into the role of a hero. A role he doesn't want and can't believe. You feel for him. And you understand how his illness - leprosy - in the days before there was a cure - has stunted his life. So when he arrives in the land and is suddenly, miraculously well again, in a world he simply can't accept as real, you can understand how he is overwhelmed and does something terrible. But he can be forgiven because he carries the guilt from that act forward with him. (And a little because Lena goes completely mad which in turn tears him apart causing the reader to feel sorry for him.)

Your MC doesn't seem to have that sort of self insight. If he did know guilt for what he had done, he would carry it with him, and it would shape his future actions - ie he'd stop doing the same bad things. That doesn't seem to be happening from what you've described. So why would I as a reader believe in his niceness?

Cheers, Greg.


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## WeilderOfTheMonkeyBlade (Oct 10, 2014)

Greg. Wow. You are way better at conveying your feelings and thoughts via text than I am. When I'm writing in my work, I'm fine, when speaking face to face, I'm fine. But on forums and other places (including my exams  ) I find that I've put down words different to those that I _feel_. 

You mention that Thomas Covenant isn't a hero. I agree with you. He is an antihero. One of many antiheroes that many people like. Karsa Orlong, Lots of other Malazan Characters. The Hound. Lots of other ASOIAF characters. My MC in question, he isn't a hero. That's why I've been using quotation marks to describe him. And it's not that my MC kills and shrugs them off. No. They've scarred him, all the more for not feeling guilt. He thinks that, could he feel guilt, he could just soothe his conscience with religious piety or kind acts. No. He has little guilt, and thats given him an empty patch in his soul. 

Sure, he ends up being the better guy out of it all. You could say that he's the one who puts an end to the whole conflict that's burning the world. He reply by telling you that he did nothing, just sat back and watched dry eyed as he order his soldiers to die. He'd tell you that he caused a fragile peace by causing more war. That if he'd kept his armies at home, things might have turned out different. You tell him that crazed gods and power hungry mortals have been stopped. He'd laugh, say that more are coming. You tell him he's given the world eternal peace. He'd punch you. Then say that blood's given the world peace enough for five hundred years to wage their petty wars, and then more crazed gods will come and try to burn things. But he might finish by saying that five hundred years of peace are better than none. 

Psychotick. I plan on finishing the series with my MC killing himself. He might have saved the world, but his few true friends have been killed. Those are the people holding him up. 

And finally. I really only wanted to see, in this day and age of darkness, with all the horrors of the world shown on our t.vs and radios, reflected in our dark, violent, bitter fantasy novels, who else found that their heroes where heroes in name only, and that everything was an odd shade of gray? 

I'm seventeen. Will my novels get published? Probably not. Will I try. Yeah, but I've not got much chance. Have any of us? 

So you can say that this is me experimenting. Testing the boundaries, seeing what I can write, what I can't. My first book was pretty unoriginal. ( I thought differently at the time. The characters were stock). Is this my way of avoiding writing stock? By writing someone who is scum? I don't know. Is he actual scum, and have I blinded himself to how bad he is? I don't know, fellow writers. 

But do you know people who are completely good? And those just bad? Sure. They exist. But they're few and far between. If we look inside, at ourselves...well. We're just all kinds of messed up. All I'm doing is putting that into a bigger picture in a world that exists in my head and on my computer.


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## Scalvi (Oct 10, 2014)

It's kind of off-topic but I've been meaning to write a story like that. Where there is a guy that is pure good and was meant to be the savior of a dark age.

But then he gets killed by a bandit. The bandit, then, inherits the mantle of savior like an infectious disease. There's a lot you can do with unrealistically pure characters beyond write about their lives. Like kill them.


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## Tom (Oct 10, 2014)

Whee! Anti-heroes! Do write that story, Scalvi. I will be your friend forever if you do. 

@WielderOfTheMonkeyBlade: 
Anti-heroes are fascinating, and if done well they can be the best kind of MC. I like unusual and morally grey protagonists (my MC is one as well), and I strive for a balance between "likeable" and "bastard", if that makes any sense. 

I say give him faults and moments where he's at his worst, but also good points and moments where he's at his best. A character who's not discernably "good" or "bad" is the most interesting and memorable kind. I mean, look at George R R Martin's characters--none of them are perfectly good, and none of them are irredeemably bad. They all do things they regret, and things they will look back on as stains on their conscience, and also things for the sake of a noble cause, or for family, or whatever good thing you can think of. 

Gah. I guess what I'm trying to say with this incoherent blob of text is...make your MC a human being first, and an anti-hero second. Things will make sense. (Even if I don't.)


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## Gryphos (Oct 11, 2014)

An important thing to note is not just whether your protagonist is a hero or not, but whether they _want_ to be a hero. To put it in the words of my own protagonist, "Who doesn't want to be a hero? Hateful men."


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