# Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn observation



## Incanus (Mar 19, 2015)

WARNING:  Spoiler Alert!  (Though I will only be bringing up one aspect of the end of this story.)

I just wanted to see if anyone else noticed something I saw concerning the main plot.  The symbol of the ‘wheel’ appears in the story here and there.  It is significant in several of Simon’s dreams as well as (near the very end) his being tied up to a waterwheel for a torturous length of time.  It’s been awhile since I read the books, so I guess the ‘wheel’ image appears elsewhere in the tale, though I can’t think of where else at the moment.

Anyway, I was staring at the map of Osten Ard one day and thinking about Simon’s journey.  I realized that Simon begins at the Hayholt, and then over the course of the whole story, travels clockwise in a great circle around the map (going around the Aldheorte forest) and ends up back at the Hayholt for the finale–one giant circle, a wheel.  I thought it was pretty neat, and subtle.

I’m usually a dunce when it comes to noticing symbols and subtleties, but I was wondering:  did anyone else pick up on this?


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## BronzeOracle (Apr 14, 2015)

SPOILER ALERT FOR ENDING!

I finished reading the series a few months back.  I noticed the wheel symbol throughout and thought that it related to the cycle of violence - human versus sithi, sithi versus human - which Simon then broke when he showed empathy to the Storm King.  But I completely missed that geographic circle of Simon's journeys.


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## acapes (Apr 14, 2015)

Very cool! I hadn't noticed that either.

Was just reflecting on my memories of both this series the other day actually, and thinking that MST might serve as an interesting precursor to ASoI&F. I wonder if Osten Ard had a bigger influence on recent trends than I first imagined?


(not that I care if one artist draws on influences, or if ideas and approaches are developed simultaneously, I read MST first so that's just the way I associate the two sets of stories)


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## Incanus (Apr 14, 2015)

I'm often kind of thick and don't pick up on these kinds of things usually--interesting to see that some other fans hadn't noticed it either.  I like BronzeOracle's cycle of violence observation, it also fits pretty well.

And yes. GRRM was explicity influenced by MST.  

And although Williams' newer series Shadowmarch doesn't take place in Osten Ard, there still seems to be a small connecton:  Josua and Vorzheva (spelling that right?) have twins at the end of MST, and Shadowmarch features twins as the main characters.

I didn't like Shadowmarch nearly as much as MST, but it was still pretty good.


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## acapes (May 29, 2015)

Incanus said:


> I'm often kind of thick and don't pick up on these kinds of things usually--interesting to see that some other fans hadn't noticed it either.  I like BronzeOracle's cycle of violence observation, it also fits pretty well.



Agreed!



Incanus said:


> And yes. GRRM was explicity influenced by MST.
> 
> And although Williams' newer series Shadowmarch doesn't take place in Osten Ard, there still seems to be a small connecton:  Josua and Vorzheva (spelling that right?) have twins at the end of MST, and Shadowmarch features twins as the main characters.
> 
> I didn't like Shadowmarch nearly as much as MST, but it was still pretty good.



I tried the Otherland books but couldn't get into them for some reason. I might try again one day, have you ever read those? Will have to try the Shadowmarch series, I remember liking the sound of it. And yeah, I think that's the right spelling


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## Ronald T. (Aug 2, 2015)

I noticed the repetition of the wheel and the circular travel pattern as well, but felt the author hadn't intended such a literal connection. Of course, you could be absolutely right in your conclusions. 

But for me, it seemed that Williams was possibly making a more subtle reference. Perhaps he wished to make a tie to the cycle of life: from nothing -- birth, growth, adulthood, diminishment, senility, death -- to nothingness. Or perhaps, a reference to the Lunar Cycle, that of Waxing and Waning, a process of returning to the beginning.

But that's what makes the writing and reading of stories in most genres so exciting. They make us think.


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