# Magic can't coexist with technology... like really...



## Lowen (Mar 27, 2018)

So, i'm building this fictional world like most of you guys. I've spent like five years or maybe more (i don't even remember) just thinking about the concept and wondering why none of my ideas sound original and interesting. Now i've realized it never worked out because i was ripping off Tolkien. Honestly it was even worse, it was basically a "copy paste" thing. 
So now i'm trying to build it in the hard way, trying to sound as original as i can. 
Instead of creating a single continent to make biblical stuff happen there , i've created an entire world map with different civilizations having different religions and stories. I've also made a fictional timeline based on the real one, so my world won't be stuck in the "lord of the rings" , "dungeons and dragon" , "world of warcraft" , game of thrones" concept. 
Now here's the thing, when you make things evolve you end up stuck in another concept. If you include magic in your world and try to make it usefull to people, your story starts sounding like "Harry Potter" but without the "secret wizard society" stuff. Because if people can use magic to do something else besides killing other people they will build a society where everything works with magic and say "_Fuck you !" to the Industrial Revolution. 
I mean, indrustries will still exist and everybody will need to get a job, but nothing will be that bad as it is in the real world and most part of the things we see today won't exist. People won't need trains,cars and airplanes to transport stuff , they can teleport using magic. Internet and cellphones won't exist, because you're able comunicate with people from distance by using magic itens. Videogames , Movies and even Porn Movies won't exist , because you can probably simulate stuff by casting illusion spells on yourself or something like that. Kids will have to go to school but the school system will work just like in "Harry Potter", everything will be related with magic.
Things will basically work just like in "Harry Potter". Nobody will care about machines and tecnology because magic helps with everything. 
If you make people build stuff anyways there will probably be a war, and them it went from "Harry Potter" to "Classic Final Fantasy". If the Industrial Society ever win the war congratulations, their world will start looking like the real world and you have turned it into "World Of Darkness"
Anyways , my point is : "_Magic can only be ignored in the dark ages, because of religion. And if you're talking about magic in the way we human beings know , you can't really mix magic with religious stuff. When a priest or a god uses magic , people consider it a miracle and say it has nothing to do with magic". And that's why i belive that Magic can't coexist with Technology, that's all.
Now someone please say something. Prove me i'm wrong, add more reasons why if you agree , curse me because you don't have arguments and it seems like i've made you look stupid...just tell me what you think about it


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## Insolent Lad (Mar 27, 2018)

There are some ways I've gone with this problem. One, magic is not universal, but only available to a few gifted individuals (I worked out the genetics  ). So most folk still need to use more pedestrian ways of making a living. Two, magic is limited in what it can accomplish, and even then normal ways of doing things may be more practical—mages tend to reserve their power for emergency use.

And third, the use of magic  CAN be dangerous and lead the practitioner to madness. This is not quite the same sort of limitation as the other two, but definitely a consideration. Not surprisingly, this also make ordinary folk a bit leery of those who use magic.


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## pmmg (Mar 27, 2018)

Well, magic is great, but a bullet to the head is still pretty fatal (maybe Voldemort should have tried that?)

I do think the problem you describe above would serve as a good explanation for why technology in many fantasy settings does not really evolve over time, magic could have a retarding affect on its progress.

I think the thing is, if you include magic of a nature that it really has no limits, then there is no need for technology, but you are the author, you get to make or not make any limits you want. So, if you want to write a world where everything has evolved with the use of magic, then yeah, its likely technology would not have evolved with it, and I am sure there are still awesome stories you can tell in that, where everything is done with magic. But many magic systems are not like that, and do come with limitations. So, if you apply limitation, you may retard magic's universal appeal as the answer to all problems, and technology comes back into play. Why use magic to communicate, which has the risk I may open a portal to a dark place and a demon may eat my soul, when I can just use a cell phone (which eats my soul in another way...)?

I think the trick is, whatever your setting, tell a story that is worth telling in it. At the end, do you want people to go, wow, that was a neat setting? or do you want them to relate to what the story was about?


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## Yora (Mar 27, 2018)

Everyone can use a machine with a few minutes or hours of instruction. Not everyone can use magic, perhaps ever.

Also, the overall situation is adressed in "Sanderson's Second Law of Magic": Limitations are more interesting than powers. If magic is free, unlimited, and can do everything, there isn't much interesting going to happen. Magic becomes interesting when characters are using creative ways to use the limited ways magic can be used in unexpected situations.

Also, magic does not really conflict with religion. There's plenty of ways of religious believes that don't require belief in miracles. And if faith is purely based on belief in miracles, even many deeply religious people would consider that a rather poor form of belief. Though one could say that if all people have unlimited power, then all people are gods. But again, what's the interesting story there?


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## pmmg (Mar 27, 2018)

Yora said:


> Also, magic does not really conflict with religion.





Lowen said:


> Magic can only be ignored in the dark ages, because of religion.




On this, just sayin', if the world was such that magic was common and undeniable, religion may have turned out very differently. But even with magic, what is in the realm of gods, is still in the realm of gods. Before there is all of us taking advantage of a magic system, there is still something that brought it about, and would possibly have dominion over it, so a realm of gods could still be fashioned, and religion would still be about the things that are expected of us.



Yora said:


> Everyone can use a machine with a few minutes or hours of instruction. Not everyone can use magic, perhaps ever.



C'mon. Everyone can use Magic, they just need to RTFM?


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## Yora (Mar 27, 2018)

I don't remember the exact specifics, but there have been several religious movements throughout history which followed the principle that if you want to understand the meaning of a world created by a god, you have to learn how it works. Understand how the universe works and you will be able to understand god.
The very same approach could, and in my opinion most likely would, apply to magic as well. If the universe was created in a way that allows mortals to use magic, why? Why was it deemed necessary to give this ability to humanity? And even in a religion without a creator, you're still left with questions of "what is right or wrong?", "how should I live my life?", "where do we come from?","where do we go to". Shoting fire from your hands (or building an electric power plant) does not give you any answer to these questions.


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## Svrtnsse (Mar 27, 2018)

There's a saying that goes something like "any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology" or maybe it was the other way around - it doesn't really matter.

The point is that people are lazy and if possible they'd like to have stuff done for them. Let's say you'd like to have hot water coming out of the tap when you open it - so you install a water heater. It may be powered by electricity, or it may be powered by enchanted lava stones that the arcanist down on the corner teleports into your water tank at regular intervals. You may even have a fire elemental living under the water tank so you don't need the lava stones and you always have hot water, you just need to feed it once in a while.

You'll still need pipes to transport the water to the tap though - or do you? You could just open a small dimensional portal in the water tank and one above the sink and water will splash through. You don't even need to have a sink under the tap, you could just open another portal underneath and have the warer fall out in a designated waste water collection facility. 
Or you could just conjure up water and heat it with the power of your mind or your wand, or magical rune carved on the wall of the kitchen.

Except, that's a lot of work, and it's really just easier to open the tap and not have to worry about it.

The second point here is to consider the implications of everyone having nearly limitless magical capabilities. How would that affect the development of the world? 
Distance is not a problem. Anyone can travel anywhere.
Time is not a problem. You can stop it and rewind it if you need more.
Food is not a problem. You can conjure it up, or you can go pick some up by just teleporting to where it is.
How does this affect the development of the world?
Does it even evolve at all or do people just chill out and enjoy their lives as best they can?

Crime won't be much of an issue. Everyone has what they need because they can magic it up, and if someone still does something criminal you can use magic to find out what and exact appropriate punishment.

I guess under those circumstances, there's not really any need for technology. You could even conjure up magic that cast magical spells for you.

There's not really any need for people either - at least not anyone but peoples close friends and relatives and acquaintances, but only the nice ones.


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## Queshire (Mar 27, 2018)

I haven't written anything in the setting but I've given thought to an urban fantasy setting without a masquerade which, for the most part, still looks like the modern day world.

What I've arrived at is that magic is treated a lot like martial arts are in real life. Everybody knows about martial arts, but not everybody knows martial arts. There's also significant difference between the kid that learns karate from the local dojo in the mall and the old grandmaster whose spent their entire life mastering martial arts.

Secondly I have it where magic can't be mass produced. You can't just copy someone else's spell. You have to adjust it at least a bit to your own personal style. You have to enchant any objects by hand and the more you're involved in personally creating the object to be enchanted the more of a charge it can hold. Any mage worth their salt should be capable of carving their own staff and sewing their own wizard robes.

If you have the money for it then yes, you can have a mage teleport you somewhere, but for most people it's cheaper and easier to just take a plane.


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## Holman (Mar 28, 2018)

Magic is no fun if it is unlimited, at least in my opinion, it becomes a panacea for all world problems, and as such ruins good stories. Just magic your way out of the problem. The challenge for me was to limit magic in a way that was believable/acceptable to the reader, and to work within the self-imposed limits to solve the problems that couldn't be solved by the technology of the world, at the same time accepting that certain problems couldn't be solved or were indeed problems that didn't need solving (first world problems). In the world I am basing my WiP I have tried to find a sweet spot between technology and magic. You can do this in different ways, consider the costs involved, the practicality or indeed the era/setting. Then simply play around - the what if game can be fun.


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## CupofJoe (Mar 28, 2018)

No. Magic can't exist with Technology. In this world we have technology, therefore we can't have magic.
QED
My spurious [if not outright specious] logic aside, it's your world so anything can happen. As long as you make what happens in your world behave according to the rules of your world, who knows [but you]  what the outcome may be.
Readers will buy in if it feels believable and coherent.
I think any world where magic was unlimited in easy of use and power, would have to quickly define some laws to limit it [social and cultural taboos] or end up being thought out of existence by the first homicidal [or just really *ANNOYED*] person to come along. Thinking about it, that would probably happen anyway...
I like my magic subtle and limited.
I like LotR because Gandalf shows the power of his magic very sparingly.
I like Harry Potter because spells can be complicated and take time to learn [and longer to perfect].
I like Discworld magic because it usually gets in the way and makes things more complicated not less [just as Gaspode the talking dog, or the Sapient Mice]


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## Holman (Mar 28, 2018)

CupofJoe said:


> No. Magic can't exist with Technology. In this world we have technology, therefore we can't have magic.
> QED



This is of course based on a very small sample size of 1 universe...


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## Svrtnsse (Mar 28, 2018)

Holman said:


> This is of course based on a very small sample size of 1 universe...


...and yet it includes all available and relevant data.


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## Holman (Mar 28, 2018)

It does beg the question - "Did magic exist before we had technology?"
In which case "Does technology kill magic, and at what point did that happen?"


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## Svrtnsse (Mar 28, 2018)

Holman said:


> It does beg the question - "Did magic exist before we had technology?"
> In which case "Does technology kill magic, and at what point did that happen?"


This is pretty common in various settings isn't it?
I recall reading about a few (at least), different settings where this had happened. As technology develops and becomes more commonplace, magic is phased out and is used more and more sparingly until only a few people even know about it at all. I don't remember what settings specifically this happens in, but I'm sure someone who does will be able to fill us in.


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## Holman (Mar 28, 2018)

Magic is being phased out in my setting, but not by technology, although technology is advancing so it may appear that way. Does technology replace magic or simply fill the void that magic leaves.


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## TheKillerBs (Mar 28, 2018)

I struggle with this idea. What exactly do you mean by "technology"? Because I can easily envision magic-based technology... Actually, all magic is technology in the broadest sense of the term. And can you elaborate on why magic would kill industrialisation?


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## WooHooMan (Mar 28, 2018)

I think the big problem with this thread is that you didn't define your terms.  Here's what I got when googling the terms:
_
Technology_ is the collection of techniques, skills, methods, and processes used in the production of goods or services or in the accomplishment of objectives.
Magic: the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

I don't see these as being mutually exclusive.  In fact, there can be a lot of overlap.  So, if you use a crystal ball and wand to perform magic, the ball and wand would be considered "technology".

The issue is that the "magic/spirituality/nature/mystical vs. science/materialist/technological/skeptical" conflict is maybe the most ubiquitous cliche in all of fantasy fiction.  A lot of people just can't imagine things the other way.


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## Horus (Mar 29, 2018)

I have thought about this problem a lot in my setting, because both exist and compete quite frequently, with various results. Some of these results depend very heavily on the 'rules' for Magic.

Technology is hard to beat, even with magic, because you don't need that much extra training to use technology. You traditionally will need said training for magic. It's relatively easy to teach someone how to shoot a firearm, or use a grenade. How hard would it be to teach a person how to throw fireballs and shoot lightning? If it takes longer than it would to teach an average person how to use the previous, then technology wins. That's for warfare at least, but the same is true for any industry. If magic can outdo agriculture techniques with minimal training, then everyone will use magic to produce food. If it requires someone getting an education that's the equivalent to an PHD? You might find some really successful magical farmers, but its out of reach for most people at that point. Ability, training time, and the availability of people capable/willing to train others are key factors in how well magic can compete with technology.

I do like settings like Irregular at Magical High School and Fullmetal Alchemist, where technology and magic are essentially intertwined, as you can use magic to assist technology, and technology to assist magic. I think it makes for some much more interesting applications of the two, and uniqueness in setting.


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## skip.knox (Mar 30, 2018)

Magic can exist in many forms, but the form put forward in the OP is one of unlimited magic. Everyone can do everything. In that case, some lunatic would annihilate the entire world. End of story.  Not really an interesting environment, but it is a self-solving problem.

As for magic and religion, that's easy. As pmmg already pointed out, there will always be a higher realm, spiritual longing, or even just an urge for cults. Religion flourishes everywhere, in every circumstance. There's far more to religion than merely providing explanations for natural phenomena.

Another aspect to universal magic. I don't think it would be called magic. It would just be called doing stuff. It's stuff anyone can do. It's perfectly ordinary. A few eggheads would study it and write doctoral dissertations about its origins and causations, but most folks would tool around in their cars. They wouldn't be magic cars. They'd just be cars.


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## Lowen (Mar 30, 2018)

Insolent Lad said:


> There are some ways I've gone with this problem. One, magic is not universal, but only available to a few gifted individuals (I worked out the genetics  ). So most folk still need to use more pedestrian ways of making a living. Two, magic is limited in what it can accomplish, and even then normal ways of doing things may be more practical—mages tend to reserve their power for emergency use.
> 
> And third, the use of magic  CAN be dangerous and lead the practitioner to madness. This is not quite the same sort of limitation as the other two, but definitely a consideration. Not surprisingly, this also make ordinary folk a bit leery of those who use magic.



Good point. The third reason can mess with the whole thing all over again , but these other two might work as a way to jutify.
 You see , that's my problem with magic. It's really hard to think about the details of a world where a normal person can say something like : "__Uncle James arrived yesterday , he was so shocked by the news he spent a lot of money just to get some mage to teleport him. He wasn't even that far , he could have come by car, it would take only 2 hours or maybe less."
It seems a lot easier to say that society forgot about magic's existence than saying it is a normal thing, but even nowadays we recognize it as something misterious and very dangerous. 
Now everybody is saying it can be done if i create a magic system with some specifc rules , so now i don't know anymore


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## skip.knox (Mar 30, 2018)

There are many kinds of magic. Take a look at what exists in Tolkien's world. No rules, or almost none, yet it *feels* powerful in that world. Or look at what Piers Anthony did, where each person can do only one specific bit of magic and sometimes it's incredibly trivial, like the ability to make a fart sound. Systems like Le Guin's Earthsea can be elaborate without having a whole bunch of rules. There is, in fact, no particular reason why you have to have teleportation exist at all. You can still have magic. Then there's god-based magic where people have to pray for magical effects, never knowing quite what they'll get.

All and any of that can exist in a 21st century setting. Steampunk showed the way on this. You just invent one or more magical substances to power your machines.

The range of solutions and approaches really is quite broad. The more fantasy you read, the more you will discover.


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## Corwynn (Mar 30, 2018)

Horus said:


> I do like settings like Irregular at Magical High School and Fullmetal Alchemist, where technology and magic are essentially intertwined, as you can use magic to assist technology, and technology to assist magic. I think it makes for some much more interesting applications of the two, and uniqueness in setting.



As do I, and my setting is one such world. Instead of being contradictory, magic and technology can bolster one another, both directly in the form of magitech, and indirectly by uncovering new scientific principles that can be applied to the other.

For example, a magical healer could heal someone by sending out vague healing energies at the patient, but this would be an inefficient use of energy, leaving less for the treatment of other patients. A knowledge of medicine and anatomy would enable a magician to know exactly what needs to be fixed and how to do so, allowing them to save their power for others who may need it. Of course, they can avoid using any magical energy at all if they have access to an effective non-magical remedy.

Even if anybody can learn magic, and magic can be really powerful, technology is still useful as a labour-saving device.


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## Svrtnsse (Mar 31, 2018)

I mix magic and modern day technology in my setting too.

In theory anything you can do pretty much anything with magic, but in practice it gets more and complicated the more advanced effects you want to achieve. Throwing a fireball would be a relatively simple task for someone who's skilled in magic and who's practiced it a bit. Speeding up time in a localised area to allow an injured bodypart to heal faster would be a lot more complicated, and doing it while the person in question is in active combat would be impossible in practice, but not in theory - unless you're using divine magic in which case it's really your god doing it and not yourself, but only if the god feels like it.

In addition, not everyone can do magic, and of those who can most will require a partner.

In order to cast magic spells you first need to channel the aether into a weaveable stream (or multiple streams), and then you need to weave that stream in the right way to produce the effect you want.
Roughly one person in twenty five is able to channel aether, and roughly one person in twenty five is able to weave aether streams into magic. Most of these people work in pairs with one channeling and one waveing.

One person in twenty five times twenty five (625) is able to both weave and channel, and can cast magic on their own.

The numbers are picked in such a way that an average size school class will have at least one kid who's fluent in magic in some way, either as a weaver or a channeler. This means most people will have personally encountered someone with magical abilities of some kind (this doesn't include elves who are all able to both weave and channel to some degree).

To sum things up then. 
 - Magic can, in theory, do anything.
 - Magic is, in practice, limited to the skill and training of the practitioner.
 - Not everyone is capable of wielding magic.

In this case, there's still plenty of room for technological advancements for the convenience of everyone who's not magically gifted.


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## psychotick (Mar 31, 2018)

Hi,

I agree with the other posters. There's no particular reason why magic can't exist with technology unless one is all powerful - or unless you've got a rule as in Arcanum where magic interferes with technology and vice versa. Eg turning on your toaster kills the light of your enchanted stone etc.

But a more interesting question is, what happens when one of these two things suddenly becomes far more powerful and prevalent. Say one day the world has both and muddles along, and then the next someone finds a way to give magical, near godlike abilities to everyone. Then you have the makings of a story on your hands! The reason I suggest it is because I used it in a recent book, and created an entire history based on the very concept - and the disasters that happen when that miracle of magic slowly goes away.

Cheers, Greg.


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## elemtilas (Mar 31, 2018)

Lowen said:


> i've realized it never worked out because i was ripping off Tolkien. Honestly it was even worse, it was basically a "copy paste" thing. So now i'm trying to build it in the hard way, trying to sound as original as i can. Instead of creating a single continent to make biblical stuff happen there , i've created an entire world map with different civilizations having different religions and stories. I've also made a fictional timeline based on the real one, so my world won't be stuck in the "lord of the rings" , "dungeons and dragon" , "world of warcraft" , game of thrones" concept.



Heh. It's in running away from what we fear that we run straight into fear's bosom!



> Anyways , my point is : "_Magic can only be ignored in the dark ages, because of religion. And if you're talking about magic in the way we human beings know , you can't really mix magic with religious stuff. When a priest or a god uses magic , people consider it a miracle and say it has nothing to do with magic". And that's why i belive that Magic can't coexist with Technology, that's all.
> Now someone please say something. Prove me i'm wrong, add more reasons why if you agree , curse me because you don't have arguments and it seems like i've made you look stupid...just tell me what you think about it



Depends on what magic actually is. I tend to favour the argument that magic per se never actually makes an appearance in LotR, for all Gandalf is called a wizard. Remember, he and Saruman and Sauron and Tom Bombadil are *not* wizards, They are not even beings of earth. Bombadil's case is a little unclear, but the others are all powerful spirit beings from Outside the world and have come Inside for various reasons.

Those things accomplished by Sauron are not accomplished because he waves a wand and recites some hocuspocus words. They are done because it is in his nature to be able to do those things, and through his will those things are sustained.

Even the Elves do not understand what is meant by "magic". Galadriel herself tells Sam that she doesn't understand what he means, and as much as says "our high technology and deep understanding of the world seem like magic to you, when in fact it is not".

My take, in *The World*, is that what we'd call "magic", they call _dwimmery_ and is simply the (unusually lucky) result of certain natural forces being properly manipulated. Dwimmery is like an airplane: you're lucky that the forces of lift and drag and acceleration and gravity were well balanced and the whole contraption landed safely --- that was magic! Dwimmery is like a light switch: we flip a switch in blissful ignorance of what goes on, but somehow an entire room is illuminated! --- that too is magic!

Dwimmery is, I think perhaps, a little more difficult to add to the mix without screwing things up royally. Some people have a nearly innate capacity to manipulate dwimmery. To others, it seems like they but wave their hands and fire appears to consume a stick, or they pass their hands into an injured body and on bringing them out again, all the hurts are healed --- is that not also magic‽

Some people have a more difficult time and have taken to "storing" the dwimmery they are able to command. By perhaps imbuing a wand or staff with power, and causing a manipulation of substantial reality by use of cunning and arcane spells.

Still others have sought to combine dwimmery with ordinary technology. This is called _thaumology. _Here, certain components are strictly technological in nature, while others are strictly matters of dwimcraft. Take for example, Lord Maytagge's _Self Actuating Laundry Board Mechanism with Attached Wringer_. 






It is a fairly nondescript and ordinary looking device, entirely mechanical in appearance. You stoke the thing with coals or wood chips, make sure the water line stopcock is open. You open the great bronze lid on its ordinary brass hinge and throw the clothing in along with some washing soap. But it's when you turn the great Knob on the front that the magic begins! Stored within the device is a kind of energy. A _potential_, if you will that will, once activated, bring the whole glorious mechanism to life!

I guess if I told you that magic in The World largely involved the subtle manipulation of wee strings of matter, either changing their composition or rearranging their position with respect to one another, then it may no longer seem so entirely magical anymore!


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## L. Blades (Mar 31, 2018)

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread...

Firstly Lowen I would like to suggest to not to limit yourself too much. What I mean by that is, don't force one thing to depend on the other; consider that Magic, Technology, and Religion can all be Completely independent of each other. You can make a great start at this by asking yourself what each one is exactly. They could be broken down into the following categories:

Magic; a type of power, source of energy, or force, or even an act. It may have no prerequisites, it may not need a religion or god, it may not have any bearing on technology.

Technology; a physical thing that has been constructed, using materials and methods. This is purely the focus of design and manufacturing, no matter how primitive or advanced.

Religion; this is a belief system, and can be based on anything. This can be a belief in a supernatural being, or a system, or even the worship of a technology. It doesn't require technology, magic, evidence, or logic; religion can be created by a story, and can be just as, as if not more powerful than any magic or technology as a tool of control or oppression.

None of these necessarily have to conflict with each other. From reading the thread though, I do like the interesting ideas of how some can be related to the other, such as a magical substance being required to fuel a technology in the steampunk genre. Or for example you could have a society whose religion worships a technology, say the sword.

In a fantasy world limitless magic would make it deeply flawed, as others have pointed out (what's to stop someone blowing something up with ten thousand nukes?). I particularly like Yora's comment, "Limitations are more interesting than powers. If magic is free, unlimited, and can do everything, there isn't much interesting going to happen." - I would focus on how magic works in the world, rather than how a world could function around magic. You don't need to go into too much detail of How your magic system works, but you can if you want as long as it's relevant to the story. I've wrote the whole of my first book deliberately not going into much detail of the 'how's (or the 'limits') of magic; but have laid the foundations of how it is going to be explored in the sequel.


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## tofit (Mar 31, 2018)

Some technologies will still be useful. You could use magic items to power machines like some kind of heated item. Magic in a sense is a science, if it were real scholars would break it down into a science. Technology would be your magic wand, or your telepathic glyph. There would still be ways of explaining technologies and magic and how they work together. Just treat it like it's a science.


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## Helen Bennet-Kröger (Apr 1, 2018)

This was a really useful interesting read.

Just wanted to add one thought that I don't think has been said yet: geography.

This is a point I generally see people (myself included) forget. When creating a world, we need to think about the real specific geographies in between cultures. So let's say you have a tribe of people using magic close to a river. Then across from the river I write about a society of people which technologies are advances more than ours today - they can time travel, beam themselves up, live forever. Wouldn't these two cultures have interacted over the hundreds of years they've been living there? Wouldn't they have strongly influenced each other?
Now what if there wasn't a river separating them but a few continents? Then I can totally believe that these two cultures have not advanced in magic or in technology. 

This is based in the assumption you want to have both magic and technology but use them in different settings. With putting the two together, there are smart posts here. To me it also depends on what the culture you're describing would deem the stronger force: magic or technology? The secondary force would probably be used to enhance the primary.


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## raygungoth (Apr 2, 2018)

I'm always weirded out by this idea and statements like this. Where I grew up, a song that's supposed to make it rain and the ability to fix a car were both considered what you'd call magical in a book. 

But let's back up a bit. Technology is defined as a tool, system, or process designed to solve a problem (this is the working definition). This means that if your setting has spells that work, they're technology. Just like how a different series of evolutionary paths would result in a different ecosystem entirely, so, too, would a different set of physics result in a different technological base. Just because we wouldn't recognize familiar elements - i.e., electricity and its properties, magnetism, gravity, etc. - doesn't mean it's not technology. Magic wouldn't have to coexist with technology because it _is _technology.


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## Steerpike (Apr 2, 2018)

It always seems to me that when people make such categorical statements they've somehow forgotten that they control the world of the story. 

There are plenty of stories where magic and technology co-exist, so that should be empirical evidence that the proposition posed by the OP is wrong, as least insofar as we're talking about constraints on actual fiction. If you want to make your world as logically-consistent as possible, then yes you have to game out some of this stuff, but at all times you remain in complete creative control--if something doesn't make sense at first, tweak the world so that it is logical, or come up with a rational underpinning for it that make sense in the context of your story. 

There is rarely a _can't_ in fiction writing, and especially in SF/F, that holds up to scrutiny.


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## Miles Lacey (Sep 7, 2018)

The notion that magic and technology cannot co-exist is nonsense.  In my work in progress there is both magic and the technology akin to that of the 1930s with a few minor tweaks here and there.

In the world of my work in progress magic (called sharara (Arabic for Spark)) is gifted by the gods to 0.5% of all adults when they turn 16.  However they have to learn how to use the sharara properly as it takes skill - and both excellent physical and mental fitness - to use and master it.  A Master of the sharara can fly carpets over long distances, heal practically any injury or illness and even take out a fort but Masters are very rare.  Healing powers isn't much good in a world where technology has now meant that one hundred sahir (mages) couldn't heal tens of thousands of wounded people suffering the complex array of wounds and diseases that can be inflicted by Western Front (World War I) style combat.  The modern army has little need for a sahir who could bring down the walls of a fortress when artillery, tanks and bombs dropped from aircraft can do pretty much the same thing.  And who needs a flying carpet when an aircraft, airship or glider can do the same thing?  The very role of the sharara is one of the core sources of conflict in my work in progress.

In a society where magic is confined to a few people technology would still evolve.  The question is how that technology emerges, what type of technology emerges and the pace that technology emerges.  Equally importantly, can the technology and the magic within a society work together?  In _The Legend of Korra_ the sort of technology we would expect in a world modelled on the 1920s has come about but magic hasn't died off.  Instead a new bending power has emerged: the ability to metal bend.  It has also raised fundamental questions about the roles of technology, science and bending in society with the very religious, social and political stability of the world of _Legends of Korra _at stake.


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## Drakevarg (Sep 8, 2018)

The degree to which magic impedes the progress of technology is proportional to its mass applicability. In a world where magic exists, it's not going to be some conflicting force with science - it's just going to be a field of science. Even in soft magic worlds where magic is sentient and unreliable. "Science" is nothing but the act of studying something. So what if magic behaves inconsistently, _so do people,_ and we have sciences to study those too.

So for technology to be suppressed by the presence of magic simply means the magic is a more reliable means of getting things done in that universe. Why spend all that time trying to figure out the complex series of mechanics needed to build a car, when you can just politely ask your carpet to perform the same tasks? By the same measure, if magic is the sort of thing where minor errors will summon city-destroying demons on a fairly regular basis, maybe it's better to leave the task to the natural forces that *don't* open up hellgates when mishandled.


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## S.T. Ockenner (Jul 14, 2020)

Um, no. If your magic system is limited enough, it is definitely possible to have advanced technology. Take my magic system for example. Magic is 100% rune based, and you have to be born with a black beard to use it. It coexists with technology quite well. In fact, it even supplements it, making the technology less prone to failure and/or enchanting objects to help perform their actions, like a cybernetic arm being enhanced by a fire rune.


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## Za'dok Khoal (Jul 14, 2020)

Really, it depends on the writers imagination and willingness to put time into building a system that will work for their story. If it works it works. As far as the originality goes, readi g is good, it helps with ideas, but people for generations have taken ques from day to day life, history or the world at large, so if your day and life are mostly or consistently filled with those stories then yes those will be your muse, esp. you have a love for them. There was a quote I read some years ago, that went along the lines of "don't write to be original, write what you love and write from the heart, and in time you'll find you are original." Basically you aren't, or most aren't, writing to just be a writer or make money, some are, but a true writer writes for the passion and love of it. Do that and take things you love and do it. It maybe more original than you think. And magic exists in our day today already, sometimes you just have to block out the haters, and be willing to see it. Life's not dead.......yet.


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## Saigonnus (Jul 14, 2020)

I tried a similar concept. I was imagining what it would look like if a "fantasy world" were taken forward in time to a pseudo-modern era. Many of the cultures of my planet already have an almost 100% presence of magic ability in the population (To a verying degree. There are still very few "powerful" casters.) And many are used to manufacture the new magical items people take for granted or maintain those that already exist. I tried to consider all the ways that magic could replace technology and how it is accomplished. 

Some examples of this is with transportation. First is airships. The ship is constructed normally, but then magically "lightened". The heat within the dirigible is controlled magically; using a core of moltan and water energy (meaning you need a suitable caster to control this aspect of the ship) and piloted using charms that contain air magic. Most have about the same of turn radius they might have on the ocean, and the speed varies with the talents of the pilot. The military forces tend to use them.

A more everyday example are the "enchanted gardens". Basically, each one is a well-manicured park with typical flora and fauna and ordinary paths of stone or concrete. They act as a mass transit center because these paths lead to "shrouds" (magical doorways) that are keyed to take a person to a specific shroud somewhere else in the city. The bonus is that each side of the shroud can be independantly charmed, so one shroud can take you to two different places depending on which side you walk into. So as you are walking through the city, you might see a shroud in a small plaza or park on a street corner, and see people walking into and out of the shroud. Shrouds are also used inside of the tall buildings to take people to the various floors of the structure. So they replace TAXIS, BUSES, ELEVATORS, ESCALATORS, HELICOPTORS etc... 

Another aspect I considered was water-supply and waste water treatment. In a metropolitan area, water and waste would be fundamental. With magic, water can be created from air/water charms, so most buildings would have a cistern for their water supply. The pipes are charmed to keep debris and pollutants from tainting the water, and those same pipes clean the outgoing water; which can be incorporated back into nature, or used for the landscaping around the buildings. 

Lighting would be largely ambiental. Charmed crystals on desktops, similar stones/crystals for light fixtures, torches that don't produce heat or smoke, designs on walls that glow whatever color you want... etc... the concepts speaks for itself.

Another fundamental is food and food storage. Charmed boxes/bags/baskets/bottles etc. can be used to keep food as fresh as the day it was placed in the containers. Bye-bye food waste. You can also use similar containers to keep food cold or hot depending on what it is and simple stone/metal circles/squares in a countertop can be charmed to cook your always fresh beef for your nightly meals or for making your farm-fresh eggs, bacon and hotcakes for breakfasts. Ecological and Magical!


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## Kazu_Arrowsoki (Jul 17, 2020)

To be honest with you, I do believe magic and technology can coexist, but under certain qualifications. It would all depend on how advanced one's world is and how one would like it utilized in their world.
1. For advanced worlds were "Time of Winter". (aka; a world were all of mankind are served by A.I. robots) Magic can be used a an alternative power source fused into crystal like batteries instead of using fossil fuels or nuclear Energy.
2 For times like the current time. (Present time) This is a bit of harder topic as I believe that in this time would be more of an Industrial, Medical, Military, or a segregation topic.
3. For the Mid-evil Times. I do think that magic would be more of a political topic, with nothing to do with technology.

The reason for my opinion is I too have the same opposition on this subject with a story I am in the process of writing.


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## Azaraiha (Aug 10, 2020)

Magic can equal technology however. If a being from an advanced society, I e. a Vulcan traveled back in time to say 100 c.e. on earth, there is no possible way for the people of that era to distinguish Vulcan tech as anything but magic.


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## pmmg (Aug 10, 2020)

There would be if he explained it.


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## Queshire (Aug 11, 2020)

pmmg said:


> There would be if he explained it.



You know, I'm not actually sure about that? Like, check your pockets. Do you have a smartphone?

How would you explain that without it basically amounting to magic by another name? Sure, you could say "do this, and this, and this" to build one, but if they're just following the instructions by rote then what's the difference between that and following the instructions for a magical ritual by rote?

Sure, you can teach them the basic principles behind scientific advancement like the good ol' scientific method, but if they're then asked how to get from there to a smartphone, well, what are they supposed to say?

There's a tremendous amount of material science, manufacturing processes, basicall all of computer science and more that would have to be taught.

Hell, all that is just for a smart phone. It'd be even worse for sci fi Star Trek technology.


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## pmmg (Aug 11, 2020)

I could explain it well enough that it would not seem like magic anymore.  Magic would be stuff that could not be explained. Course i am not sure i would, only that i could.


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## skip.knox (Aug 11, 2020)

Azaraiha said:


> Magic can equal teic chnology however. If a being from an advanced society, I e. a Vulcan traveled back in time to say 100 c.e. on earth, there is no possible way for the people of that era to distinguish Vulcan tech as anything but magic.



Not initially, perhaps. But If a second-century person observed the Vulcan operating that tech--let's use something simple like a ray gun--then that person could copy the behavior. Pick up the gun, press the button. Boom!

The principles of operation would remain opaque, probably never understood, but that person would have a pretty clear notion of what Romans meant by sorcery, and the ray gun doesn't fit that. So it would be a device not understood, but definitely not magical. 

In fact, what constitutes magic varies by culture. It doesn't mean "everything I don't understand." In some times and places, it meant only the operation of divine beings. Or that magic is merely illusion. And so on.


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## S.T. Ockenner (Aug 11, 2020)

skip.knox  Exactly! What if people do understand magic?


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## Miles Lacey (Aug 11, 2020)

When the Maori first came into contact with Europeans they came face to face with firearms.  They never saw it as magic, although they had no name for this weapon or any explanation for how it worked. What they did realise was that firearms could kill from a distance, which would give them the edge in fighting rival tribes.  That led to a booming trade in firearms and the mass slaughter of Maori tribes in the Musket Wars of the 1820s and 1830s as tribes with firearms decimated those without.

A Vulcan ray gun would be seen in much the same way.  The 2nd Century person who saw a ray gun in action wouldn't understand how it worked but they would understand that it was capable of killing people which would make it highly sought after.

As for a smartphone most of the features wouldn't work so all they would see is a strange tool which people are tapping words they wouldn't recognize and bizarre symbols.  They wouldn't see it as magic, though.  If it could still play videos they would try to link it to something they could grasp like graffiti or paintings, except these paintings can move.

A 2nd Century person could've linked a smartphone or ray gun to something they understood so it wouldn't have been magic to them.  They might've called something magic if they couldn't make the connection with something they understood.

Assuming they had a concept of magic.  After all, who knows which part of the world in the 2nd Century the person with such technology might've ended up?


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## Eduardo Letavia (Aug 11, 2020)

skip.knox said:


> In fact, what constitutes magic varies by culture. It doesn't mean "everything I don't understand." In some times and places, it meant only the operation of divine beings. Or that magic is merely illusion. And so on.



Not just culture, in the end the problem lies with the witness of the supposed _magical_ event. Allow me to quote a few sentences (found in Wikipedia) from different authors:

Arthur C. Clark, 1973: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is *indistinguishable* from magic". The last of the three *Clarke's laws*.
Leigh Brackett, 1942: "Witchcraft to the *ignorant*, … simple science to the *learned*".

Agatha Christie, 1933: "The supernatural is only the natural of which the laws are not yet *understood*". Found in the short story _The Hound of Death_.
As you can read above, the question about what is _magic_ has been around for a long time, and the answer is rather clear: is just a matter of *perspective*. Following this train of thought, we could say that words like magic, sorcery, witchcraft and any other sinonym or equivalent in any language represent above all superstition (which includes ignorance and irrational fear in one neat package). They're warning words for the humble peasants that know little more than their simple life in their villages, but those same expressions are also representative of the power and control hold by those in the know.

So, lets say you build this fantasy world for your epic story. Fine, from your point of view, you human on this Earth, there are events in that world that are impossible to happen here, your reality. But those events will be natural to *that* reality and, even worse, you, as the creator of that world, will know the rules that make things tick in that reality. Therefore, you have an explanation to them, the same or a close one the wizards, mages, sorcerers or whatever you may want to call them will have to know to truly master those events and make what we, humans on Earth, would call _magic_. But for them is real science, with real explanations, and real experimentation that enables them to understand and control the, again for our perspective, _magical_ phenomena in their world.

And no, it doesn't matter if you put gods or any other supernatural beings as gatekeepers of sorts of that _magic_. They'll have rules to follow, or endure some sort of natural restrictions, and maybe they restrict the access to the knowledge for any reason, but that doesn't deny the fact that the magic is just another natural phenomena in that universe.

So, for me at least, magic and technology are not just compatible: they're one and the same. Everything is physics!

By the way, that previous conclusion of mine leads me to a quite curious consequence: to say fantasy is also saying science (or speculative) fiction. And the more detailed you make a magical system for a story, the harder science fiction will that story be.


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## Steerpike (Aug 11, 2020)

It's worth reading Bronislow Malinowski's classic essay on Magic, Science, and Religion.

I have linked it HERE for those who are interested. 

This was written in the 1920s, so be aware of some archaic terminology, such as use of the term "savages" to refer to groups of people.


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## skip.knox (Aug 12, 2020)

Interesting article. It's too bad he looked only at "primitive" cultures. My interest is in how "civilized" cultures regard magic, science, and religion.


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## Steerpike (Aug 12, 2020)

skip.knox said:


> Interesting article. It's too bad he looked only at "primitive" cultures. My interest is in how "civilized" cultures regard magic, science, and religion.



Yeah, Malinowski was interested in so-called "primitive" cultures. That was his area of interest as an anthropologist, from what I understand. I think it was also _en vogue _at the time.


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## Snowpoint (Aug 21, 2020)

That's the trouble with "kitchen sink" systems. If it _*could *_do anything, what does it actually do? Hard to discus and extrapolate on the setting when the core element is fuzzy.  
I like it when fantasy elements are more lazer-focused on an idea, theme or goal. 

After you know what you want the fantasy element to do, then you can see how the world would warp around that thing.  
If you want Giant Robot Wizards, or Wizards who pilot Giant Robots. It could be done.


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## Toby Johnson (Feb 10, 2021)

I disagree, steampunk for example. this is technology and yes I know traditional steampunk doesn't have magic in it but some books i've read do make steampunk and magic together


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## S.T. Ockenner (Feb 10, 2021)

Toby Johnson said:


> I disagree, steampunk for example. this is technology and yes I know traditional steampunk doesn't have magic in it but some books i've read do make steampunk and magic together


That would be Gaslamp Fantasy


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