# My latest book is a huge mess and I don't know how to fix it?



## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 22, 2017)

I've got a reality warping, literally warping, paradoxical character [who is in fact the author, but not me] looking for another paradoxical character [a living heart] and a family of shapeshifters caught in the middle of it all with their youngest daughter in a mysterious coma [who is actually a magical clone of the living heart], and to top it all off I'm trying to connect it all to my first book [which was supposed to be a stand-alone]. Oh, and there's twin beings of love mixed into the mess as well. 

Help?


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## Butterfly (Feb 22, 2017)

ummmm....

Perhaps you need to organise what you have of the story so far... 

Maybe look at your structure, make a chapter and scene map on a spreadsheet, write down each problem you find as you read through it, and work through the list one item at a time.

maybe even work on one POV character at a time, then weave them together in your final draft.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 22, 2017)

^That might work, I guess. Thanks.
My main 'problem' is that I have no idea where I'm going with this, and that my first book is already as complicated enough as it is!


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## skip.knox (Feb 22, 2017)

I sympathize, but can't really offer much advice. The descriptions you provide are too vague, for me at least.

What I can tell you is that I floundered massively--for years--until I took a horribly difficult simple step. I finished a story. Not a short story--it was about 40,000 words. 

And by "finished" I mean all the way through self-publishing it. That meant copyediting, proofreading, getting a cover, all of it. Finished, not merely written.

Once I had done that, I knew what "done" felt like and I could aim for it again. I got a short story written. I wrote a novelette of about 15k. All the while working on my thrice-cursed novel. But every time I got all the way to done, I solidified my sense of story. I knew what it felt like under my hands, the way a sculptor knows the shape of the finished work.

I really recommend getting all the way to done with a story. Doesn't matter which one. Doesn't matter if it's good. It only matters that you complete it. You can't live in a house half-finished.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 22, 2017)

^Sorry about that. 
Now it seems...like I can so easily pick apart this book and my first so easily until they fall apart, as if both of them are held together with tissue paper. Maybe it's just that I'm just feeling low, that my writing seems cringe-worthy and pathetic. I get like this sometimes. It's kind of telling that I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for the author character, and consider him to be the closest thing to a complete 'jerk' I've ever written. Sorry for rambling.  
I'll just see what happens when I reach the end--only one more [or possibly two] parts left to write, and then editing.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 22, 2017)

I guess I have way too many ideas stuffed into one story. Hopefully I can fix it a bit later on.


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## Penpilot (Feb 22, 2017)

One of the most helpful things for me in terms of organising my explosion of ideas and stuff was to learn about structure, specifically three act structure. Once I learned that, it was kind of like going to the home improvement store and coming back with a bunch of organising bins. 

Everything had a bin it belong to and it became a lot easier to make sense of things.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Feb 22, 2017)

Relatable. Lol. 

I'm in the same boat, and I don't have any solutions, but at least I have sympathy.


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## Annoyingkid (Feb 22, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> ^Sorry about that.
> Now it seems...like I can so easily pick apart this book and my first so easily until they fall apart, as if both of them are held together with tissue paper. Maybe it's just that I'm just feeling low, that my writing seems cringe-worthy and pathetic. I get like this sometimes. It's kind of telling that I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for the author character, and consider him to be the closest thing to a complete 'jerk' I've ever written. Sorry for rambling.
> I'll just see what happens when I reach the end--only one more [or possibly two] parts left to write, and then editing.



No, you have to edit while you write, or you just end up with a big ****ing mess! 
The advice of just getting the first draft onto paper and "writing is rewriting" is so wrong. 
Second and third drafts can provide superficial changes, and help somewhat, but the core systemic problems alot of writers think can be fixed in subsequent drafts, realistically won't get fixed. Writers who expect editing will radically transform it later on waste a huge amount of time editing drafts that typically turn out worse than earlier versions. So do what you can, and then let it go flaws and all.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 22, 2017)

^Yes. The only thing keeping me from publishing my first book is myself--that is, mainly my insecurities.


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## Christopher Michael (Feb 22, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> No, you have to edit while you write, or you just end up with a big ****ing mess!
> The advice of just getting the first draft onto paper and "writing is rewriting" is so wrong.
> Second and third drafts can provide superficial changes, and help somewhat, but the core systemic problems alot of writers think can be fixed in subsequent drafts, realistically won't get fixed. Writers who expect editing will radically transform it later on waste a huge amount of time editing drafts that typically turn out worse than earlier versions. So do what you can, and then let it go flaws and all.




I have to add this caveat to your statement because it is so very crucial.
In
Your
Opinion
In the opinions of many others, including published, full time, indie authors who I respect, precisely the opposite is true.

As with everything else, find what works for you.


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## Annoyingkid (Feb 23, 2017)

The people who do that successfully have done alot -alot- of prep work. 

But unsurprisingly, tearing into the first draft without making edits has left the OP with a huge mess.

I'm saying expecting it to improve significantly in future drafts is unrealistic. 

But if you have an idea on how he can pull that off, by all means jump in and help him.


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## Penpilot (Feb 23, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> \
> I'm saying expecting it to improve significantly in future drafts is unrealistic.



This may be true for you, but it's not true for everyone. From my experience, editing can improve anything significantly if you identify the problems and come up with solid solutions to them. Identifying the problems can be tricky but it's not impossible. A lot of times all it takes is a bit of time and space from the story.


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## Annoyingkid (Feb 23, 2017)

Penpilot said:


> This may be true for you, but it's not true for everyone. From my experience, editing can improve anything significantly if you identify the problems and come up with solid solutions to them. Identifying the problems can be tricky but it's not impossible. A lot of times all it takes is a bit of time and space from the story.



Identifying and then coming up with solid solutions and then implementing them is going to be a massive time sink in a book where the problems are structural and systemic. It'll also require alot of skill. Which is the reason why publishers reject books with such issues in the first place.

As he described the book as held togeteher by tissue paper and incompatible with the prior installment, realistically, we are looking at starting over from the level of conception and premise, then making fundamental changes to structure, character and maybe just about everything. Using the earlier effort as a basis. Possibly copying and pasting in the sections that do work.

As opposed to the idea that he's going to make edits and miraculously transform the full draft. 
Of course no one's saying he shouldn't edit this draft - he should. Only don't get sunk doing it for too long, temper your expectations, and don't get depressed because you expected too much.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 23, 2017)

I edited and changed my first book for four + years. I grew sick of it so much that I knew it was time to stop, and I did. As for my next book, I've inevitably gone too far and made it much more complicated than it needs to be, so what I really need to do is pick out the main storyline, include the best bits from other parts, add a couple things here and there, rename a couple characters because I am going to smush a couple characters into one to streamline it [now there's only six-seven characters instead of fourteen!], and write the second half right up to the emotional and heart-breaking climax [I cried when I visualized it in my head, but some of it was happy tears]. That seems like a lot, but it's surprisingly simple for me to do, since I've certainly done it before [too many times to count!] in the past four years.
Thanks for the advice, everyone! I got it all worked out last night, just like that [in the middle of the night, unfortunately for my need for sleep!]


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## Chessie (Feb 23, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> Identifying and then coming up with solid solutions and then implementing them is going to be a massive time sink in a book where the problems are structural and systemic. It'll also require alot of skill. Which is the reason why publishers reject books with such issues in the first place.
> 
> As he described the book as held togeteher by tissue paper and incompatible with the prior installment, realistically, we are looking at starting over from the level of conception and premise, then making fundamental changes to structure, character and maybe just about everything. Using the earlier effort as a basis. Possibly copying and pasting in the sections that do work.
> 
> ...


Whoa boy! All of the years I've spent on this site have gotten me nowhere with this argument except hate mail. 

But on a serious note, perhaps it's more rewriting than editing that's the problem from my pov. I don't rewrite anymore and can't recall the last time I did. Yes, I edit as I go along and basically follow the mantra of "get it right the first time". But this doesn't mean that I don't tediously go through the manuscript and also have help from others doing so. Everyone has a different process, so this is just mine. I write...edit...write...add something in and clean up the narrative....write...edit...write...fix a continuity error...etc. I end up with a clean manuscript after that. What really has killed my manuscripts in the past has been a combination of critique partners and rewriting. The story was no longer mine after that. It morphed and changed to the taste of others. Now, no one looks at it before it's done.

Back to the OP though: condense that plot. Make it simple. As a newer writer it's crucial to train yourself to finish from the start, so having something simpler to work on will help. Simplify simplify.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 23, 2017)

I mainly edit bits and pieces at a time, or suddenly get a burst of energy and go through the whole thing [Last year I edited my first book in about four days and transformed it into something actually readable.] 

I am good at telling simple stories with complex layers.


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## Penpilot (Feb 23, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> Identifying and then coming up with solid solutions and then implementing them is going to be a massive time sink in a book where the problems are structural and systemic. It'll also require alot of skill. Which is the reason why publishers reject books with such issues in the first place.



Anything worth doing requires time. I find editing takes more time than actually writing the first draft. As for skill, if you want to develop any skill, you have to practice. Not doing something because it takes time and because one isn't good at it, well, IMHO that's not a good way to approach writing or even life. 



Annoyingkid said:


> As he described the book as held togeteher by tissue paper and incompatible with the prior installment, realistically, we are looking at starting over from the level of conception and premise, then making fundamental changes to structure, character and maybe just about everything. Using the earlier effort as a basis. Possibly copying and pasting in the sections that do work.
> 
> As opposed to the idea that he's going to make edits and miraculously transform the full draft.



The OP asked for help, I offered up learning about structure, specifically the three act structure as a way to organise himself. I once had to throw out the last half of a novel because it stunk, but because I understood structure the editing/rewrite was relatively simple. It just took time, effort, and a desire to do it. And the final results were night and day better.




Annoyingkid said:


> Of course no one's saying he shouldn't edit this draft - he should. Only don't get sunk doing it for too long, temper your expectations, and don't get depressed because you expected too much.



Deciding when to move on is one of skills one has to develop as a writer. There will always be a point where limitations on skill will prevent one from taking a story any further.

My first novel was a 275k mess. I took it as far as I my skills would allow and moved on. As I was writing my second novel, I started using a bunch of tools I'd studied about during the course of writing my first novel. And as I progressed through my second novel, I started see solutions to all the issues that plagued my first.

I don't have any immediate plans to go back, but I scribbled down a bunch of notes. I consider my first novel something I could fall back on if I got picked up and a publisher wanted something relatively quick. 

As for expectations, me, I always aim high. If I miss, I miss. I learn to deal with it, because failure is a huge fact of life when writing and trying to get published. I think it's better than always aiming low, because if that's all you ever do, then that's all you're ever going to achieve.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Feb 23, 2017)

In general, whenever someone tells you that you MUST do something a certain way in writing, listen to what they have to say, but don't take it to heart. Or, if you're like me, do the exact opposite...


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 23, 2017)

^I often take things to heart too much, being overly sensitive and all.


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## Chessie (Feb 23, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> In general, whenever someone tells you that you MUST do something a certain way in writing, listen to what they have to say, but don't take it to heart. Or, if you're like me, do the exact opposite...



I find this view unhelpful. Part of the learning process includes getting words of wisdom/tricks and tips from those more experienced in the craft. The OP asked a question and we're all trying to help, not tell him/her what to do. If you're not going to listen to others and learn from their experiences and mistakes, if we can't have a discussion without a participant being cosidered bossy, then what do we have left? There's nothing more frustrating than answering someone's question on here and then being told "screw you I do what I want but I asked the question anyway".


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## Annoyingkid (Feb 23, 2017)

Penpilot said:


> Anything worth doing requires time. I find editing takes more time than actually writing the first draft. As for skill, if you want to develop any skill, you have to practice. Not doing something because it takes time and because one isn't good at it, well, IMHO that's not a good way to approach writing or even life.



Spending your time inefficiently isn't a good approach to life. I'm just going to say this to you: No one sets out to spend 4+ years on editing their first book only to finish in disgust. You sleepwalk into it because the writer keeps thinking if only I make this change or that change, maybe it'll all come together. Thinking they're one or only a few steps away from bringing it home. And when it unsurprisingly doesn't happen, writers end up despondent. In artistic terms it's called missing the endpoint.  



> I once had to throw out the last half of a novel because it stunk, but because I understood structure the editing/rewrite was relatively simple.



Maybe because your first half didn't stink, you were able to fairly easily follow the established threads to their end.


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## Christopher Michael (Feb 23, 2017)

Chessie said:


> I find this view unhelpful. Part of the learning process includes getting words of wisdom/tricks and tips from those more experienced in the craft. The OP asked a question and we're all trying to help, not tell him/her what to do. If you're not going to listen to others and learn from their experiences and mistakes, if we can't have a discussion without a participant being cosidered bossy, then what do we have left? There's nothing more frustrating than answering someone's question on here and then being told "screw you I do what I want but I asked the question anyway".




The difference is, those of us who offered help said for we do things or how things could be done. Then someone offered a "this is the way, walk ye in it" option.  THAT is the issue here. Anytime someone says how it MUST BE DONE, they are invariably wrong.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Feb 23, 2017)

Christopher Michael said:


> The difference is, those of us who offered help said for we do things or how things could be done. Then someone offered a "this is the way, walk ye in it" option.  THAT is the issue here. Anytime someone says how it MUST BE DONE, they are invariably wrong.



Every writer is different. Every story is different. There are too many variables for one thing to work for everyone.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 23, 2017)

> No one sets out to spend 4+ years on editing their first book only to finish in disgust.



Um...I wasn't disgusted of it. I just knew that it was time to stop once I got so tired of editing it. It is finished; my uncertainty is the only thing keeping me from publishing it [that, and I'm a bit busy at the moment].



^Exactly, exactly! Why can't more people understand that???


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## Annoyingkid (Feb 23, 2017)

Christopher Michael said:


> The difference is, those of us who offered help said for we do things or how things could be done. Then someone offered a "this is the way, walk ye in it" option.  THAT is the issue here. Anytime someone says how it MUST BE DONE, they are invariably wrong.



Except I'm not wrong. You have to take care with the first draft. Either by careful prep work, and/or self editing as you write. Or being careful with what is written in the first place. Rushing into a giant mess of a first draft then untangling it and making the radical changes required in subsequent drafts is a poor use of time. It's easier to turn around a smaller car than a big truck. 

If you disagree, it bothers me not in the least. Your idea of "MUST" is absurd though. There's no gun to anyone's head so chillout, bucko. If the OP wants to ignore the idea of taking care with the first draft and edit for another 4 years, I'm not going to hunt him down and stop him. 



> Um...I wasn't disgusted of it.



Sick of editing it then. As you said.


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## Devor (Feb 23, 2017)

You could try laying out the story in index cards.  Sometimes that can help a lot with getting an overhead view of the story arc and where the changes need to be.

There's nothing that can't be fixed, but if you're spending four years on something, and putting in the effort, and it's still not working, then you need to try something different and get a new way of tackling the problem.  Don't let yourself get stuck halfway on the learning curve.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 23, 2017)

^^I actually tend to write the first draft and then untangle it; it's easier to discard things I don't need or save tidbits of story for a later book that way. 



> Sick of editing it then. As you said.


That doesn't mean I'm not happy with my accomplishments, though. I'm just finished with it for now, and working on my new book.


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## skip.knox (Feb 23, 2017)

This thread is accumulating too many personal pronouns, too many _ad hominem_ statements. 

If you find yourself saying "you are wrong" or "I am right" in any of the numerous forms those statements can take, take a step back, breathe, and re-formulate. We're writers here; that shouldn't be too hard to do. Disagree with a position, a statement, an argument. Don't disagree with the person. 

I try to ask myself these questions:
1. Is what I *want* to say actually helpful? 
2. Does it speak to the original post?
3. Am I trying to prove someone else is wrong?


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## Chessie (Feb 23, 2017)

Christopher Michael said:


> The difference is, those of us who offered help said for we do things or how things could be done. Then someone offered a "this is the way, walk ye in it" option.  THAT is the issue here. Anytime someone says how it MUST BE DONE, they are invariably wrong.



I understand but that's not how Annoyingkid came across to me. *shrug* I'm not looking for any arguments here, just wanting to point out that it's really not helpful to say "I'll ask a question and then when someone answers, I'll do the exact opposite." It makes me not want to answer those questions, or participate in these forums when I know that I'm not going to be taken seriously. But that's besides the point of the OP so...carry on.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Feb 23, 2017)

The way I see it, either you can: 

1. Spend a huge amount of time on the first draft and have little to fix 

OR 

2. Dash off the first draft and spend a huge amount of time fixing it. 

(Or any variation on a spectrum between those two.) 

The first approach might save time, true. Problem is, if you write like I do, you can't write that way. I discover what kind of story I'm writing as I write. In my experience there's a lot of things you can only know in hindsight. Planning things out ahead of time is useless for me because I can only find out what the story will be like by writing it. 

Not to mention that, in a second draft, you have a higher vantage point. You can see things from a viewpoint you didn't have while in the thick of the story. You can view the whole story and how its parts fit together. You can't do that if you don't have a story. In my case, I don't even know what my story will be like until it's on the paper, so trying to see the whole story isn't really that helpful. 

I have a lot of stuff to fix, yes, but this is the way I prefer to write. It seems much more natural and organic. Yeah, I do edit as I go, it happens as the story changes and develops, but if I tried to figure out everything in the first draft, I would never write a word. (Trust me. I've tried. I ended up blocked for 2 years. Now I'm like, not doing that again! I regret daily all the time I lost. I've given discovery writing a try in this last book and I like it a lot.) 

All this to show that there's not one way to do things. 

I've tried getting the story right on the first try, I got blocked for two years, now I've accepted that my writing process is exploratory and I must slowly uncover the story I'm writing rather than figure it out ahead of time. Is it messy? Yes. Is it better than not writing anything? Hell yes.


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## skip.knox (Feb 24, 2017)

Too funny. I did discovery writing with _Goblins_ and I vow I'll never do that again.

We writers are weird.


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## Penpilot (Feb 24, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> Spending your time inefficiently isn't a good approach to life.



That's precisely why I don't edit while I write. It a waste of time spending hours editing a chapter/paragraph/what ever when I suddenly realise later on in the story that I have to dump that chapter. This isn't just my approach to things. I learned this from listening to interviews from pros, who write for a living. 



Annoyingkid said:


> Maybe because your first half didn't stink, you were able to fairly easily follow the established threads to their end.



Not really. The first 50k I wrote for NaNoWriMo, and it had plenty of things that needed adjusting. Like I said I was able to do it because I understood the structure of the story. It allowed me to understand what I was removing, and it allowed me to organise myself and break down the work into digestible chunks, so I never felt overwhelmed. 



Annoyingkid said:


> Except I'm not wrong. You have to take care with the first draft. Either by careful prep work, and/or self editing as you write. Or being careful with what is written in the first place. Rushing into a giant mess of a first draft then untangling it and making the radical changes required in subsequent drafts is a poor use of time.



You're not right either. Just because something works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone else. 

I used to edit while I wrote, wanting everything to be oh so perfect before I moved on. Took me forever to write anything, and I rarely finished. The moment I decided to stop editing while I write was when I started to finish things. Combine that with a little education on structure, and suddenly my first drafts became less messy. Ideas became more clear. I think novels will always be a little messy for me just because of their shear size. But when I write short stories, the first draft without editing is always coherent. It may still suck, but it's coherent, and just needs some TLC to make it what I consider good.



Annoyingkid said:


> It's easier to turn around a smaller car than a big truck.



Sure, but what's the point of changing direction when you're not even sure what direction you want to go? Is it better to change direction a hundred times in a small car or to just make one turn in a big truck?




TheCrystallineEntity said:


> That doesn't mean I'm not happy with my accomplishments, though. I'm just finished with it for now, and working on my new book.



No writing is ever wasted no matter the outcome. You learn from struggling with it, and if you're happy with what you got, even if it still has issues, then all the better.


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## psychotick (Feb 24, 2017)

Hi,

Perhaps instead of arguing about who's right and who's wrong (because let's be honest everyone's right and everyone's wrong), we could turn instead to the question asked. How to fix the problem.

From what I understand from the OP, the basic issue is plot. It doesn't ring true to the author. It also doesn't match up exactly to a previous work. In my view if you have this level of issue, redrafting and editing won't work. The problem is conceptual. And so the first thing you have to do is go back to the drawing board. The drawing board in this case is the story structure / characters / plot / world build.

My thought would be - and here I speak as a pure pantster / discovery writer - lay out the plot. I don't know whether you're a pantster or a plotter, but here the answer is the same. Go right through the work, set out in chronological order every step that happens in the story, and beside it include character biographies and world build details. Then ask yourself where in this do things not seem to be working? 

You can also, and maybe you should because you may well be too close to your work to see the issues, give the plot to others to go through. Ask them to tell you where they think things don't make sense. To write down questions. (Oh if only the writers had done this for Highlander Two!)

Next, think about what they give you. (And remember one of the most powerful pieces of advice a beta reader can give you is the simple comment - I don't understand.) Go back to your plot document, and beside it write in changes, so you can see what was and what is. And absolutely as you go through the plot, making your changes, remember to update those changes at all later points in the plot. Otherwise you get continuity errors.

Then and only then, when everything's nailed down, begin work on the rewrite. Rewrite it from start to finish in chronological order (not like me as I jump from one section to another), and hopefully by the end you will have a story that hangs together. That's when you can finally start thinking about redrafting.

Finally you can hit the beta reading of the story - but remember to use different beta readers from those who went through the plot. You want fresh eyes.

Hope that helps.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Russ (Feb 24, 2017)

I don't think there is enough information in the OP to really fix the problems that might be there in the short medium that is an internet thread.  That strikes me as a big project.



> You have to take care with the first draft.



This is one route, not the only route.

Some professional writers do tons of editing as they go.

Some professional writers just do a super fast first draft (often referred to as the vomit draft) and then go back and intensely edit.   One very successful spec fic writer I know suggests his real writing process doesn't start in earnest until after the commit draft is finished.


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## Steerpike (Feb 24, 2017)

Russ said:


> I don't think there is enough information in the OP to really fix the problems that might be there in the short medium that is an internet thread.  That strikes me as a big project.
> 
> This is one route, not the only route.
> 
> ...



Yes, I think that process works for some people. The idea that it will take substantially longer to produce a complete work that way strikes me as an assumption without any real evidence behind it. People write in different ways, none inherently better than the other since what works for the individual writer is what matters. For some writers, rushing somewhat haphazardly through a first draft might lead to a longer overall process; for others it may be the reverse. 

Given the nature of the OP's problem, I see at least two approaches:

1) start outlining/planning the story at a higher level and work through the issues before committing words to the paper;

2) push through until you have a complete first draft, and if issues arise that would otherwise stop you in your tracks, ignore them for now and keep going.

Neither of these is inherently better than the other, and only the OP can determine which approach is likely to be the best for his/her own writing.


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## Malik (Feb 24, 2017)

I am a huge proponent of writing the ending, first. Know where you're going. Then get there. 

How does the story end? What's the point you're making? What are you trying to say with the book? Maybe examine that, then write the end, and then figure out how everyone got there from where they are, now.


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## Steerpike (Feb 24, 2017)

Malik said:


> I am a huge proponent of writing the ending, first. Know where you're going. Then get there.
> 
> How does the story end? What's the point you're making? What are you trying to say with the book? Maybe examine that, then write the end, and then figure out how everyone got there from where they are, now.



I'm trying that approach for a longer work I am working on. With short stories I tend to just sit down and write, with a vague notion of where the whole thing is going, and I usually get through the first draft in a sitting. That said, the endings do give me difficultly, probably because of the approach. The second to the last story I sold was written that way, and one of the rejections I received for it had a personal comment from the editor saying she liked everything but the ending. Rewrote the ending and it sold on next submission. So it might have been more effective to have written the ending first, as you suggest.


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## Chessie (Feb 24, 2017)

Ok...but why does "discovery writing" have to mean that you can't edit as you go? And for heaven's sake, all writing is organic. I don't understand why these sorts of discussions typically end up in "my process is organic and perfect and anyone who doesn't do it this way isn't artistic."

At the cost of getting myself banned, which I most certainly don't want to do, I'm going to take a breath and say that my only intention in answering Crystalline's question was to be helpful. Yes, I outline but loosely. Most of the stuff I make up as I go between plot point to plot point. But...WHO CARES?!??!?!!! No one is right and wrong here! I do agree the OP's problem is structural because there's too much going on in the story. But OP hasn't given us much to go on either, so it's difficult understanding how exactly to help. Perhaps that might be a better way to steer the discussion.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Feb 24, 2017)

Chessie said:


> Ok...but why does "discovery writing" have to mean that you can't edit as you go? And for heaven's sake, all writing is organic. I don't understand why these sorts of discussions typically end up in "my process is organic and perfect and anyone who doesn't do it this way isn't artistic."
> 
> At the cost of getting myself banned, which I most certainly don't want to do, I'm going to take a breath and say that my only intention in answering Crystalline's question was to be helpful. Yes, I outline but loosely. Most of the stuff I make up as I go between plot point to plot point. But...WHO CARES?!??!?!!! No one is right and wrong here! I do agree the OP's problem is structural because there's too much going on in the story. But OP hasn't given us much to go on either, so it's difficult understanding how exactly to help. Perhaps that might be a better way to steer the discussion.



I'm a discovery writer and I edit as I go. So...


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Feb 24, 2017)

Steerpike said:


> Yes, I think that process works for some people. The idea that it will take substantially longer to produce a complete work that way strikes me as an assumption without any real evidence behind it. People write in different ways, none inherently better than the other since what works for the individual writer is what matters. For some writers, rushing somewhat haphazardly through a first draft might lead to a longer overall process; for others it may be the reverse.
> 
> Given the nature of the OP's problem, I see at least two approaches:
> 
> ...



I must say that with my last book, I took the #2 approach. Rereading that book was a weird as hell mess. But something extraordinary has happened. Just from rereading and taking notes, I now know what to do to the first 30 chapters to fix them and how I'm going to do it. Something I never could have figured out without first having written the book. Having the book written changes everything in some cases. 

I tried #1. As I said, blocked for 2 years. 

Maybe this discussion suggests that the OP needs to first figure out what kind of writer they are, or what works for them. Writing this book might be a part of that, though. So the OP could pick either approach and get out of it the benefit of seeing what works for them.


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## Chessie (Feb 24, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I'm a discovery writer and I edit as I go. So...


Okay....

_The way I see it, either you can:

1. Spend a huge amount of time on the first draft and have little to fix

OR

2. Dash off the first draft and spend a huge amount of time fixing it.

(Or any variation on a spectrum between those two.)

The first approach might save time, true. Problem is, if you write like I do, you can't write that way. I discover what kind of story I'm writing as I write._

Spending a huge amount of time on a first draft with little to fix= editing as one goes as in the context of this conversation. So, why the contradiction then?


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 24, 2017)

I've fixed it! I've fixed it! *happy dance* Well, sort of. Basically I've found a way to combine all of the elements of the story in a way that it still makes sense: The Princess Bride approach.

So far, my book is divided like so:
Part I: The framing device is laid out--four childhood friends from a magical realm read the newest book by their favourite author, Annonymous X [me].
Part II and III: The book that they are reading [White Darkness] is presented in full.
Part IV: The childhood friends decided that they don't like the ending, and hire a warping wizarding detective to track down the author and ask him/her to write a better ending. Naturally, after many hilarious adventures, it is revealed that the 'detective' is actually the author all along, in disguise. The other characters are not remotely happy about that, but the author agrees to write one sentence more to fix the ending, and promptly vanishes afterwards. It is then revealed at the last minute that the magical world is in fact the magic planet from my previous book, but thousands of years into the future.


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## Reaver (Feb 24, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> If you disagree, it bothers me not in the least. Your idea of "MUST" is absurd though. There's no gun to anyone's head so chillout, bucko. If the OP wants to ignore the idea of taking care with the first draft and edit for another 4 years, I'm not going to hunt him down and stop him.



No need to get personal here. As my colleague Skip pointed out earlier, let's try to lay off the personal pronouns when disagreeing with someone's opinion.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 24, 2017)

Thanks to everyone for all of their suggestions!


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## Annoyingkid (Feb 25, 2017)

If we look at the beginning and put a huge amount of the consideration into the scene list, how much easier is that? Compared to combing through hundreds of pages of text. If we have a firm idea of how these characters will develop from the beginning, before we even start the first draft we can know early what we're dealing with.

Discovery writers won't plan much but why not evaluate and edit the first quarter, then the half way point, then the the third quarter, then the full draft. Because if you change one thing early on that often creates a ripple effect in the narrative that requires changes later on, if not throughout in order to keep continuity, that ups your workload tremendously. No one wants to keep having to look through hundreds of pages of first draft.

And psychologically when you've got so much content it's difficult to switch huge chunks around and make radical structural changes. So ultimately why make life harder for yourself?


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 25, 2017)

I guess for me it's just easier to write the first draft, and then go through it bit by bit as I type it out. It may make no sense, but that's the way it works for me.


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## Penpilot (Feb 25, 2017)

I recently came across this quote about martial arts, but I think it applies to writing in genaeral. 



> Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own. -- Bruce Lee


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 25, 2017)

^That basically summarizes how I live my life.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Feb 25, 2017)

Penpilot said:


> I recently came across this quote about martial arts, but I think it applies to writing in genaeral.



Yes! That's perfect.


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## Christopher Michael (Feb 25, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> psychologically when you've got so much content it's difficult to switch huge chunks around and make radical structural changes. So ultimately why make life harder for yourself?



For a discovery writer, it really isn't difficult. Even for most plotters, or people like me who fall in between the two extremes, it's fairly simple. In fact, it is far simpler for me to edit after the first draft has been completed. 

In answer to the OP, it looks like you've got it will in hand to this point.  If I were going to make a suggestion from here forward, it would be to keep a running timeline and plotline. Write down what has happened already, and anything that comes to you for in the future. That has helped me tremendously.


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## Chessie (Feb 25, 2017)

Penpilot said:


> I recently came across this quote about martial arts, but I think it applies to writing in genaeral.



Then why come on here with a billion questions if you're just going to ignore what people say? Not you specifically, Penpilot, j/s in general. If anything, this conversation has given me perspective on whose questions I'll avoid answering from this point forward, which is a real shame because I enjoy helping out my fellow writers.


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## TheKillerBs (Feb 25, 2017)

Chessie said:


> Then why come on here with a billion questions if you're just going to ignore what people say? Not you specifically, Penpilot, j/s in general. If anything, this conversation has given me perspective on whose questions I'll avoid answering from this point forward, which is a real shame because I enjoy helping out my fellow writers.



You can't do what everyone tells you. It's impossible because people give conflicting answers. You have to pick and choose which ones to roll with and which to disregard, but even the answers you don't use are still helpful as long as you gave them due consideration.


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## Penpilot (Feb 25, 2017)

Chessie said:


> Then why come on here with a billion questions if you're just going to ignore what people say? Not you specifically, Penpilot, j/s in general. If anything, this conversation has given me perspective on whose questions I'll avoid answering from this point forward, which is a real shame because I enjoy helping out my fellow writers.



When someone asks for help/suggestions they're not obligated to do any and/or all things offered up. As long as they're respectful and give things due consideration, there's nothing wrong with them saying not for me. Often just the conversation and discovering what one doesn't want to do is just as valuable as a straight up solution.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 25, 2017)

Did I do something wrong?


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## Christopher Michael (Feb 25, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> Did I do something wrong?





No. Apparently some people, me included,have issues


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## Penpilot (Feb 25, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> Did I do something wrong?



Nope......


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## Chessie (Feb 25, 2017)

Christopher Michael said:


> No. Apparently some people, me included,have issues



I wasn't referring to either of you.  So, no, Crystalline. I'm glad you resolved the issues with your story. 

In fact, I was making a general statement overall given some of the responses in this thread and behavior I've observed over the course of some time. Can we please get past it though? We're all entitled to our opinions here.


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## Christopher Michael (Feb 25, 2017)

Chessie said:


> I wasn't referring to either of you.  So, no, Crystalline. I'm glad you resolved the issues with your story.



No worries. I was talking about our issues staying on topic. Lol


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 25, 2017)

^^Some of the people on the other forum I go on are quite silly, similar to what you described.


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## Chessie (Feb 25, 2017)

Christopher Michael said:


> No worries. I was talking about our issues staying on topic. Lol



Then if that's the case count me in on that...


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Feb 26, 2017)

Now I have two potential ideas. 
1) Take the White Darkness story and insert it into my first book, as the protagonists' journey to ascension. 
2) Leave it as is and make two books instead.


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