# Men, manhood and manliness



## Svrtnsse

I'm not sure whether this would go into Writing Questions or World Building, but I figured that characters are parts of the world so designing characters ought to be a part of designing the world.

Either way, there's been quite a bit of talk about women in fantasy and how women are portrayed and so on and so forth. There's been a little bit less talk about how men are portrayed. I came across this TED Talk on the topic and found it quite interesting:
Colin Stokes: How movies teach manhood | Video on TED.com

What are your thoughts about this?
My spontaneous reaction is that he raises some good points that are worthy of consideration.


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## ThinkerX

A lot of that clip seemed like 'PC run amok' to me.

Most interesting bit of that was the 'Bechdel Test'.

1) Are there more than two female characters with lines?

2) If the answer to 1 is yes, do the women speak to each other?

3) If the answer to 2 is yes, do the women talk about something other than the male character they both like?

Made me give a bit of thought to my own literary endeavors.

Most of my tales are short stories, which makes it a bit hard to cram more than a few characters into them without creating a mess.  Given the whole range of issues with short stories, I'm not certain if the Bechdel test is valid with them in all cases.  Still:

1) The Toki/Hock-Nar tales are centered about two males.  Other characters, male or female, are usually secondary (though sometimes very powerful).

2) 'Leave' has a large cast of female characters...who are often in sexual situations.  I suppose it passes the Bechdel test.

3) The 'Lysander' stories are a bit of a mix.  One doesn't have any female characters at all, another has a number of women in minor roles, and the third is told from a female characters perspective.

4) 'Labyrinth' features two principle male characters and one principle female character.  The principle female character does meet and speak with other female characters about topics other than men...but these other women are all secondary characters.

5) 'Empire' has a female character as the protagonist, and another (secondary) female character for an assistant.  There are quite a few other characters, male (including two other major characters) and female alike, and the female MC exchanges words with many of them.  

6) 'Shadow Sea' is a male dominated tale, enough so to where it would have a good chance of flunking the Bechdel test.


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## Jabrosky

I have a short story in my Mythic Scribes portfolio titled "Hunting for Womanhood", which is a coming-of-age story about a teenage girl who must kill a dinosaur so she can graduate to womanhood among her people. That's the kind of plot most would probably expect for a boy's story. It doesn't have much conversation in it, but the one moment of dialogue it does have occurs between the heroine and her family and doesn't invoke romance, so I would think my story passes the Bechdel test.


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## ThinkerX

Again, some of my short stories do pass the Bechdel test.  Others do not.  But given the space constraints and focuses of many short stories, I doubt the Bechdel test should even be applied much of the time.


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## Caged Maiden

Now as you read this, understand that I am a sucker for love stories and I include some version of romance in almost every story.  Sometimes I show it from the male POV, sometimes from the female.  I think I probably show the female one more often in intimate scenes, but that's just personal perspective and where I believe the POV needs to be for emotional impact.
Okay, now to talking about women in my books.

My female characters are normal.  Pretty normal, but partly unique.  They are neither virgins nor beautiful... they are real women, ones who make mistakes or even cause ruin, but they do so for their own motivations rather than for plot reasons.  My men aren't mighty warriors, nor ar they go-all-night studs who become somehow tamed from their wild, womanizing ways by my gorgeous heroines that have few actual talents but happen to be very good at cleaning the man's house.  Why am I saying all that?  Because I read more historical romance than I do fantasy with romance, so I try to aim as far from historical romance as I can with my love interests/ love stories.  

As far as characters:  One MC is a young woman about to be married to a stranger.  She's a rebellious person who leaves her home and lover, to move to a strange city, with the sole intention of being a good wife.  But things never work out how she plans...  Another MC is a middle-aged woman who's feeling past her prime and is being driven mad by paranoia and grief.  She's certainly a huge part of the book.  My third female character (a secondary character) is a prostitute who works as a spy for the other MC.  She's a big part of the quirky interactions between the associates in the book.  These three women are accompanied by three male leads too, one being the MC and two others being strong secondary characters.

In another book, I tell the story completely through one woman's POV, while she's basically kidnapped, rescued, and later commandeered by two werewolves who need her help.  Most of the cast is male, but only because in that particular story, it's a very small cast.  In the house, where the story begins, the cast is 80/20 females/ males, but in the adventure portion, where soldiers are following the two male leads and their female companion, it's a mostly male world.  You know... rethinking that might be a great idea.  Why couldn't my conquering king be a queen?  I'll think about that.

Mostly, since I write romance into my stories, my women and men are fleshed out.  Really deep and tortured souls, each searching for something or shoting for something, and maybe using each other to help support them on their goal.  Maybe not... maybe instead, they stand in each other's ways and cause problems.  I like to keep it interesting.


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## Ophiucha

As much as I love feminist fantasy, it does hurt the worldbuilder in me to see some very poorly defined gender roles in so much of the subgenre. It takes women, and basically gives them the exact same roles as the men of their world... without really considering what happens to all of the equally necessary jobs that women would have. That's not to say a clean split to a matriarchy works either - having men take care of children from birth isn't practical, given the necessity of nursing in a pre-industrial society. It's something a lot of fantasy that tries to be equal just neglects.

Even in more traditional, male-driven fantasy series there is still a certain lack of responsibility that is in stark contrast to the realities of medieval life. Men who abandon their wives to go on quests should be sending gold back home. Do they run farms? Can their wife and children feasibly run it in his absence (particularly if they are bringing their oldest son with them)? Even these orphan farm boys, if they have any living family, are abandoning duties and property. And men, particularly upper class ones, can just as easily be trapped in an arranged marriage as a woman, though you rarely see it from their perspective. Men can be responsible for their widowed mothers and unmarried sisters and they need to raise dowries for their daughters. I'd like to see more men who have to deal with the realities of being responsible adults.

@ThinkerX, Quite true. I mean, a story could be overtly feminist and still only have one female character (in a short story, having only one character of any gender isn't uncommon). I think the test was originally created for (feature-lenghth) movies, anyway.


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## Mindfire

Okay so I watched the video and I have just one question. What the heck was his POINT? He seemed to just keep meandering and rambling about the Wizard of Oz and Star Wars and the Bechdel Test animated animals and action girls and somewhere in there he forgot to actually stop and analyze any of it. He makes a lot of hay out of the violence of modern heroes but he never gives examples or examines the context or explains why the violence is a problem. He never presents any evidence. He just says modern heroes are violent and that their movies lack women. He doesn't even bother to explain why this is an issue. It's just kind of assumed that everyone thinks it is. And then the non-sequitur of "we need to teach boys to be nice" is tacked onto the end without following logically from anything that was said beforehand.


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## CupofJoe

I take the under-lieing point that too often the only male role offered in film and TV is the worst of the Alpha male clichÃ©.

All genders need complex role models for their real and imaginary lives. If boys only have the Star Athlete Jock and girls only the Barbie Princess, then there will be a problem.

 [and don't get me started on the utter non existence of lesbian, gay, transgendered or even none of the above role models]

I'm not a fan of the Bechdel test. It is too easy a box to tick, write a  small meaning less scene were character A hand something to character B  and as long as they are female and say please and thank you or discuss  the weather, you're done... I don't want token women, just here to fill a quota on some marketing chart, just like I don't want token [add in almost any minority grouping] characters. 
That said if the Bechdel test is an easy box to tick - why do so many films still fail it...


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## buyjupiter

I would personally love to see examples of how to write menfolk who aren't the epitome of GI Joe. I'd love to see examples of men talking to other men in world about what it means to be a man. As a woman, I don't get to be around when men have their man-to-man chats about how societal definitions of manhood suck and they really just want to be dancers or whatever it is that society doesn't accept men doing. (I've had the same kind of conversation with my girl pals about how societal definitions of femininity really suck and I presume men have the same kinds of conversations--correct me if I'm wrong.)

Conversely, I don't want to see fictional conversations devolve into what it means to be a "real" man...or only defining manhood by what kind of status symbols the guy can achieve or how much money he brings home. I see those messages far too often as it is now, usually in advertising.

I'd love to see fiction where this issue is tackled. Where there isn't "one twue way" to be masculine. That default masculinity isn't blow stuff up until problems get solved. (Usually by some other party, as violence generally speaking doesn't tend to do much but solve a very immediate problem and usually causes 10 new problems along the way.)

(For reference, I don't write men who are the epitome of GI Joe, but I would like to see how other people approach the idea of realistic human men.)


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## Feo Takahari

I feel like there's a limit to how much I can handle at once. I do write the occasional male protagonist, so I guess I could put some effort into making good male role models, but I'm already putting so much time and energy into writing a wide variety of female protagonists. (And I'm not always aiming for role models, either--I'm just trying to create interesting, multifaceted characters. I think having models of all the different kinds of people men and women _can_ be is just as important as having models of what they _should_ be.)


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## Feo Takahari

buyjupiter said:


> I'd love to see fiction where this issue is tackled. Where there isn't "one twue way" to be masculine. That default masculinity isn't blow stuff up until problems get solved. (Usually by some other party, as violence generally speaking doesn't tend to do much but solve a very immediate problem and usually causes 10 new problems along the way.)



The most common version of this seems to be "masculinity isn't about physical strength, it's about standing up for what you believe in." _Gravity Falls_ did this one straight in the episode where Dipper meets the Manotaurs--they provide a ludicrously exaggerated model of conventional manliness ("I have six Y chromosomes, three Adam's apples, pecs on my abs, and fists for nipples!"), and he provides an alternative model by recognizing them as bullies and standing up to them. _Dexter's Laboratory_, on the other hand, goes straight for the parody ("It's not the beard on the outside that counts; it's the beard on the inside!")


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## Philip Overby

I'm not a fan of "ticking boxes" to make sure my fiction passes some kind of test. I feel like every character that has ever existed in fiction can be analyzed by someone to be not satisfying some kind of criteria. That said, I have a lot of women in my current novel. I decided to do this because I wanted to show all kinds of women in my world: gruff ones, pampered ones, motherly ones, hateful ones, compassionate ones, sometimes all of these attributes rolled up into one character. I didn't do this to tick a box, I just did it because I liked what each of these characters brings to my story. 

I tried to imagine each character at their lowest point and each character at their highest point. Then I kind of fudged the middle. That's how people pretty much are. A mother may be a wonderful, smiling person, but the moment you mess with her kids, she becomes a raging hell-beast. A jerk who is always cursing and yelling, may break down and say he really just wants someone to talk to him. I think about how would they react in one situation vs. how they would react to another opposite situation.

On the other hand, my men characters have been pretty much the same. I wanted to bring a balance to the story by showing that my men and women characters could be not only equally strong in some regards, but equally smart, equally disturbing, equally loving, equally devilish, equally quirky, equally weird, and equally redeemable. I've met so many people in life that don't fit into neat little boxes. I've met women who scare the living hell out of me and I've met men who I'm surprised can even tie their shoelaces. I've met some women who are the kindest, most compassionate people I know, while I've met men who make me want vomit. And vice versa.

I feel the only way to really paint convincing characters is to look around you. Go outside and meet people. Observe people on the bus or train. Talk to you grandparents. Sometimes the answers aren't always going to be in books, videos, or internet forums. Sometimes they are though, if you look closely enough.

Checking boxes was never my thing anyway.


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## Jabrosky

CupofJoe said:


> I take the under-lieing point that too often the only male role offered in film and TV is the worst of the Alpha male clichÃ©.


I have to be honest, most of my heroes and heroines tend to be what many would call "alpha" types. My male characters are big, strong, and tough while my female characters are lithe, agile, and cunning, and both sexes are usually good-looking. What can I say, those are the heroic archetypes who inspire me the most as an artist and a writer.

I submit that the main reason "alpha" archetypes bother some people nowadays is symptomatic of modern civilization. Among the most interesting tidbits of information I've picked up from my biological anthropology studies is that prehistoric _Homo sapiens_ tended to be taller, more muscular, and more physically robust than modern people as shown by analyses of their skeletal remains. Even their braincases could exceed our own in dimension (one of the Herto skulls found in Ethiopia, which is ~160,000 years old, has a cranial capacity of 1450 cubic centimeters, bigger than most people alive today. And that wasn't even the largest skull found at the site). By modern standards, these people would have probably ranked as "alphas".

With the advent of agriculture and the ensuing social stratification came a worldwide deterioration in human health and stature, which would have made it harder for everyone to reach an ideal physique. Ergo, a larger proportion of the human population found themselves limited to "beta" status and unable to realize their full potential. While modern technology and affluence have reversed some of those trends in certain parts of the world, they've also encouraged widespread obesity and sloth. It's not necessarily the case that the "alpha" ideal is inherently unrealistic or impossible to obtain. It's that our current civilization has thrown in obstacles to reaching that ideal.

The point I mean to make here is that we as writers shouldn't feel bad about writing "alpha" characters if they're whom we really want to write about. Of course there is a place for stories about "betas" too, but then most "beta" people live humdrum lives with unrealized potential anyway.


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## Nagash

Having introduced many cultures throughout my WIP, i did realized upon second look, that different conceptions of manliness came out. Of course, the stereotypical strong willed warrior occurs very often, which seemed as rather logical, seeing as a world at war forges people in a very specific way : tough, brutish, insensitive, rough... Of course, i'm not saying all characters incorporate these values, but such archetypes had to come out given the setting. Basically, this "model" of manhood can be found in every culture, since most of them experienced war recently, if not currently (when the story takes place anyway). However, personalities were tweaked here and there according to some relevant elements, which shape more often than not those who are exposed to them. In one unisex race's society, the concept of opposite sexes is actually extremely vague and confusing, hence the absolute lack of difference in their way to interact with other race's individuals of different sex. In a rather typical human society however, loosely inspired, ideologically speaking, by Sparta, manhood is defined in contrast with womanhood, and there is a fair share of sexism on a daily basis. Finally, manliness is also defined, according to a specific culture, by faith, skills as a magi, as a merchant, a number of normative virtues, merit, or skills as a political leader...

Since my WIP seems close to medieval ages socially speaking, woman are most of the time disregarded as mere trophies and sex-object in many societies. However, in a few other, mostly martial ones, they have as much rights as any man, and are considered as being capable to fulfill the role a man can, in every field of society, may it be the army, political spheres, trade, what have you... However, given the "main" ideology, not to mention the fact that an entire race (and a predominant one) is unisex and strongly resembles the archetype of the warrior, women are much more faded than men on the main scene of the novel. It does however pass the test, with at least five women MC's, most of which are soldiers and have plenty of other concerns than procreation. It should be pointed out that there is almost thrice as much men MC's, which is a little out of balance. Yet, then again, how can you expect gender equality in a novel focusing on medieval-ish war, and building a society according to archaic systems, customs and beliefs ?


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## skip.knox

I agree with some other posts here that the video seemed to be more about women and women's roles than about men. And I agree with those here who would like to see authors tackle the topic of manliness, as the topic is not well explored. When it is, it's often done in reference to a female context (men being more sensitive, less violent). It merely turns the stereotype on its head rather than actually examine it.

We write fantasy here. I do think fantasy, particularly epic fantasy, can have something to say here. Such novels often have violence, not to say epic violence, and a life-or-death situation can bring out all sorts of interesting angles on a personality. It can also show fascinating glimpses into friendship and values. War stories, especially 20thc onward, do this. 

But there are also opportunities to be explored in the journey, for example. Lots of fantasy tales involve getting from Here to There, with various secondary adventures along the way, sometimes with chances for comic relief, sometimes with minor tragedy. Often with some sort of learning. All of this provides an opportunity to explore how the male characters respond, how the female characters respond, and how they respond to each other. 

My own stories are set in an alternate Middle Ages. I happen to know a bit about the knightly ethic and about chivalry, and it's a good opportunity to explore those values (which were rather different from most people's understanding). It's also a change to show how women dealt with that world. But, being fantasy, I also get to explore unknown territory, such as how would being able to wield magic modify the knightly ethic, or what sort of value system would gnomes or dwarves or elves have. Sometimes holding a mirror up to society can be revealing, but sometimes it's just as revealing to hold up a crystal or a prism. Fantasy lets us view from angles realistic fiction simply cannot do.


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## Shasjas

Feo Takahari said:


> The most common version of this seems to be "masculinity isn't about physical strength, it's about standing up for what you believe in." _Gravity Falls_ did this one straight in the episode where Dipper meets the Manotaurs--they provide a ludicrously exaggerated model of conventional manliness ("I have six Y chromosomes, three Adam's apples, pecs on my abs, and fists for nipples!"), and he provides an alternative model by recognizing them as bullies and standing up to them. _Dexter's Laboratory_, on the other hand, goes straight for the parody ("It's not the beard on the outside that counts; it's the beard on the inside!")



While I quite like this notion of "its not about physical strength, it's about standing up for what you believe in" I find it strange to call it masculine. Isn't this something we should all aspire to, male and female?





Jabrosky said:


> I have to be honest, most of my heroes and heroines tend to be what many would call "alpha" types. My male characters are big, strong, and tough while my female characters are lithe, agile, and cunning, and both sexes are usually good-looking. What can I say, those are the heroic archetypes who inspire me the most as an artist and a writer.
> 
> I submit that the main reason "alpha" archetypes bother some people nowadays is symptomatic of modern civilization. Among the most interesting tidbits of information I've picked up from my biological anthropology studies is that prehistoric _Homo sapiens_ tended to be taller, more muscular, and more physically robust than modern people as shown by analyses of their skeletal remains. Even their braincases could exceed our own in dimension (one of the Herto skulls found in Ethiopia, which is ~160,000 years old, has a cranial capacity of 1450 cubic centimeters, bigger than most people alive today. And that wasn't even the largest skull found at the site). By modern standards, these people would have probably ranked as "alphas".
> 
> With the advent of agriculture and the ensuing social stratification came a worldwide deterioration in human health and stature, which would have made it harder for everyone to reach an ideal physique. Ergo, a larger proportion of the human population found themselves limited to "beta" status and unable to realize their full potential. While modern technology and affluence have reversed some of those trends in certain parts of the world, they've also encouraged widespread obesity and sloth. It's not necessarily the case that the "alpha" ideal is inherently unrealistic or impossible to obtain. It's that our current civilization has thrown in obstacles to reaching that ideal.
> 
> The point I mean to make here is that we as writers shouldn't feel bad about writing "alpha" characters if they're whom we really want to write about. Of course there is a place for stories about "betas" too, but then most "beta" people live humdrum lives with unrealized potential anyway.



The problem I have with this whole alpha-beta thing is when we have our definition of alpha, in your case one at prime physical condition, and then we start start adding other assumed qualities like most beta people living humdrum lives. People might dedicate themselves to reaching their mental potential rather than their physical one, etc. etc.


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## ascanius

I would define alpha as the type of person who is looked to for leadership or saftey due to natural abilities be they strength, intelligence, or charisma.


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## Jabrosky

Ophiucha said:


> As much as I love feminist fantasy, it does hurt the worldbuilder in me to see some very poorly defined gender roles in so much of the subgenre. It takes women, and basically gives them the exact same roles as the men of their world... without really considering what happens to all of the equally necessary jobs that women would have. That's not to say a clean split to a matriarchy works either - having men take care of children from birth isn't practical, given the necessity of nursing in a pre-industrial society. It's something a lot of fantasy that tries to be equal just neglects.


It's one thing to open all your world's occupations up to both sexes, but that may not necessarily mean each occupation has a 50/50 sex ratio in practice. For example, you could have an army that accepts both men and women, but men could still predominate since they're less likely to have children weighing them down.

Going back to the topic of masculinity, one aspect of manhood that frustrates me to no end is the whole process of courting women. Whenever we see women who attract us, we must undergo the long and arduous task of persuading those women to reciprocate our desire for them. This is where the whole "woman as reward" trope probably comes from. Feminists may not appreciate it much for understandable reasons, but it's a trope I can relate to since in real life it does feel like a woman's interest is something I must earn.


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## Feo Takahari

Shasjas said:


> While I quite like this notion of "its not about physical strength, it's about standing up for what you believe in" I find it strange to call it masculine. Isn't this something we should all aspire to, male and female?



You just pointed out why so many feminists took issue with that episode. I'm not sure I agree with all of the complaints, but it does seem to me that the positive aspects of "masculinity" are things that don't really need to be framed as male.



Jabrosky said:


> Going back to the topic of masculinity, one aspect of manhood that frustrates me to no end is the whole process of courting women. Whenever we see women who attract us, we must undergo the long and arduous task of persuading those women to reciprocate our desire for them. This is where the whole "woman as reward" trope probably comes from. Feminists may not appreciate it much for understandable reasons, but it's a trope I can relate to since in real life it does feel like a woman's interest is something I must earn.



Are you saying that women don't have to do anything for you to be attracted to them?


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## Jabrosky

Feo Takahari said:


> Are you saying that women don't have to do anything for you to be attracted to them?


No. Obviously they have to look good and have compatible personalities. However, I can more easily relate to narratives about men's struggles to win women over than the reverse simply by virtue of being a man. That would not be the case if I were a woman.


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## buyjupiter

Feo Takahari said:


> The most common version of this seems to be "masculinity isn't about physical strength, it's about standing up for what you believe in." _Gravity Falls_ did this one straight in the episode where Dipper meets the Manotaurs--they provide a ludicrously exaggerated model of conventional manliness ("I have six Y chromosomes, three Adam's apples, pecs on my abs, and fists for nipples!"), and he provides an alternative model by recognizing them as bullies and standing up to them. _Dexter's Laboratory_, on the other hand, goes straight for the parody ("It's not the beard on the outside that counts; it's the beard on the inside!")



I must not remember that episode of Dexter's Laboratory. I'd thought I'd seen them all. *off to Youtube*

Yeah, I've seen more parody attempts than realistic examination of societal expectations of manliness, and while parody does have its place...it doesn't really offer up any viable alternatives.

I'm not saying I have the answer here, on what non-traditional manliness is like or how it should be portrayed, but I don't think that the current expectations put on men are the way to go. (For one thing, they lead to the creepy, stalker idea of romance.)


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## Mindfire

CupofJoe said:


> I take the under-lieing point that too often the only male role offered in film and TV is the worst of the Alpha male clichÃ©.



I'd hardly call Luke Skywalker an example of the "alpha male cliche".



buyjupiter said:


> I would personally love to see examples of how to write menfolk who aren't the epitome of GI Joe. I'd love to see examples of men talking to other men in world about what it means to be a man. As a woman, I don't get to be around when men have their man-to-man chats about how societal definitions of manhood suck and they really just want to be dancers or whatever it is that society doesn't accept men doing. (I've had the same kind of conversation with my girl pals about how societal definitions of femininity really suck and I presume men have the same kinds of conversations--correct me if I'm wrong.)



Really my only issue with "societal definitions of manhood" is that physical prowess is often overvalued at the expense of intelligence, creativity, and problem solving skills. But _Sherlock_ has pretty much single-handedly blown that out of the water (or nearly so), so I'm good now. Lol.


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## Ireth

Mindfire said:


> Really my only issue with "societal definitions of manhood" is that physical prowess is often overvalued at the expense of intelligence, creativity, and problem solving skills. But _Sherlock_ has pretty much single-handedly blown that out of the water (or nearly so), so I'm good now. Lol.



Hmm. What would you say about the Robert Downey Jr. films which have Sherlock as a skilled boxer as well as a detective?


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## Svrtnsse

I guess I should try an weigh in on this as I started it and then went off and didn't post all day.

What I have done is thought about manliness and manly traits. I had a hard time coming up with something that is uniquely manly that isn't related to the male body.
It isn't hard to come up with something that is generally perceived to be manly. But for pretty much all those things you can say "women do that too" or "why can't women do that". I feel it's really all about perception and social expectations. Society dictates that some things are manly and some things are womenly, but there's no real reason for them to be - other than that that's how we (as a society) like it. The exception, of course, being when it relates to our bodies and that does rule out a fair bunch of things.
So in the end it's all cultural or something. We play the roles we're given and while some of us question them, some of use never even think about it.

I also thought about what manly things I do and about when I feel manly.
Last time I felt very manly was last St Pats. Me and a friend went to a small pub after work, drank beer out of tankards and talked about relationship and family issues in our past. A lot of serious words were said and it was something of a bonding experience - even though not particularly much beer was drunk (it was early and we both had to get up for work). I don't quite know why that made me feel manly, but it did. It felt pretty good.

I thought about manly things I do - manly as perceived by society. 
The manliest thing I do on a regular basis is I meet up with the lads and have a handful of pints or watch a couple of movies. We're a group of four men of which one has girlfriend, one wants a girlfriend and the other two don't particularly care. We usually meet at the pub, drink beer and talk bullshit for a few hours. Then we stroll home or, if it's been a good night, we order pizza and watch a crappy movie until the host fall asleep on the sofa - then the rest of us stumble home.
There's no reason women can't do that. Sometimes women we know show up and join in and have a few pints and a slice of the pizza. It happens, but it's different. Thing is, it's the same kind of difference if a guy outside the group shows up. The social dynamics change and I think that's more important than whether the extra person is a boy or a girl.

Women do this too. Except in the conventionally accepted womenly way, where the pub is a bar and the pint is a glass of wine. They still have the pizza though - at least as far as I can tell, even though it's not as womenly.

The core essence of these activities are the same though; meet up with a couple of friends under pleasant, relaxed conditions and spend some time together. It's just the set decorations that are different.

Finally I thought a bit about the link to the video I posted. I too felt it lacked something of a punchline or a conclusion, but it did bring up some things that I found interesting to think about - overly PC or not.
A thing like "win the victory and get the girl as a price" which is brought up isn't something I've really thought very much about myself. I guess now the thought is in my head I'll have a hard time getting rid of it. I'd already heard about the Bechdel test but after thinking a bit about it I decided I liked the idea behind it, but I don't approve of the specifics - it's too blunt, too easy to pass without actually passing it and it's too easy for people to get hung up on.
I thought a bit about strong female characters and strong male characters and as I like summarizing things and coming up with catchphrases I ended up on something about how the whole speech is about how important it is to create male characters that can deal with strong female characters (in a respectful way). I forgot the exact phrasing, but that's less important.


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## Guy

buyjupiter said:


> I would personally love to see examples of how to write menfolk who aren't the epitome of GI Joe. I'd love to see examples of men talking to other men in world about what it means to be a man. As a woman, I don't get to be around when men have their man-to-man chats about how societal definitions of manhood suck and they really just want to be dancers or whatever it is that society doesn't accept men doing. (I've had the same kind of conversation with my girl pals about how societal definitions of femininity really suck and I presume men have the same kinds of conversations--correct me if I'm wrong.)


I can only give you my personal experience - 43 years of experience as a guy, and I've yet to hear guys talking about that. Having spent all but two of those years in the southern United States, there may be regional differences.


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## skip.knox

>too easy to pass without actually passing it 

Nicely said. No rule should have to be responsible for the people who misuse it.

I think physical traits come most readily to mind, but your story about St Pat's shows there are depths beyond that. Male friendship is an important area. Men play together in particular ways, they are sad together in particular ways, they have a sense of honor and tragedy and courage that is peculiarly male. I've long thought men are the true romantics, not in the sense of romantic love but in the sense of heroic self-sacrifice, of the grand quest, of courage under fire. To quote Donald Fagan: my back to the wall, a victim of laughing chance; this is for me the essence of true romance.  That has always struck me as a specifically male lyric.

I think literature has it all over movies when it comes to looking into these aspects of the human experience. By its very nature, a movie can't really say much in a two hour span, so it's gratuitous to criticize movies for not being more than they are. It's like criticizing Saturday cartoons for not being more philosophical.


----------



## Mindfire

Ireth said:


> Hmm. What would you say about the Robert Downey Jr. films which have Sherlock as a skilled boxer as well as a detective?



I actually liked that, because RDJ's Holmes doesn't win fights by virtue of brute strength but through technique and the application of his intellect to the situation at hand. It's problem solving, but with fists involved. Plus those bits where he analyzes everything his opponent is going to do and plans how to counter it is pure awesome and I will never get tired of that gimmick. Ever. I'm not against heroes having fighting skills or even physical power, I just prefer my heroes to be clever as well. This is why I prefer Batman over Superman for example.


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## Jabrosky

Guy said:


> I can only give you my personal experience - 43 years of experience as a guy, and I've yet to hear guys talking about that. Having spent all but two of those years in the southern United States, there may be regional differences.


I have to say that this has been my observation too. Most guys I have observed don't think twice about gender issues, let alone talk about them in depth. At the most they'll groan about those annoying feminists or maybe complain about women's expectations of them (e.g. the whole bad boy/nice guy debate). My best guess is that when you're in a position that doesn't regard itself as under-privileged, rightly or wrongly, you don't worry about how you're being held down.


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## Svrtnsse

Jabrosky said:


> My best guess is that when you're in a position that doesn't regard itself as under-privileged, rightly or wrongly, you don't worry about how you're being held down.



I think this is probably central to it. When I'm out with the lads, we'll usually talk about things that interest us - games, movies, music, women - or rant about things we dislike - work (we all work at the same place); whatever aspects of our respective lives bother us at the moment; the world in general and pop culture in particular.

It's very rare that either of us brings up some aspect of life where we feel that society has some unfair or unrealistic expectations of us that we're not keen on living up to.
The only exception that comes to mind is the issue of having a relationship. Like I mentioned in my previous post one of us has a girlfriend, one of us wants a girlfriend, and the other two, don't particularly care. The issue here is that it's not entirely socially acceptable to not be in, or pursuing, a relationship (this is probably a topic worthy of a thread of its own) _*Edit:* or at least fooling around or trying to get laid._

Love is happiness and having a relationship means you have found love so if you're not in a relationship you must be unhappy, right? That's of course utter bollocks, but it's still generally treated as an unquestionable truth in our society.
It can get a bit annoying sometimes.

Edit: that expectation applies to women as well btw
A common example is all the targeted adds for dating sites of various kinds; from buddhist women wanting to move to Europe, to rich married women wanting a lover on the side, to young girls in my area wanting to date older men (that one smarted a bit).
That kind of thing gets on my nerve sometimes and it's a pretty clear expression of society's expectations of me.


----------



## Feo Takahari

I hesitate to rec this book, since the author clearly has an axe to grind, but it does provide a lot of insight into how masculinity is constructed at the high school level:

Dude, You're a ***


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## A. E. Lowan

Feo Takahari said:


> I hesitate to rec this book, since the author clearly has an axe to grind, but it does provide a lot of insight into how masculinity is constructed at the high school level:
> 
> Dude, You're a ***



Thanks for the link, Feo - even if the author has an axe to grind!  Writing convincing masculine lives is actually something that I often cope with, especially as our series has a lot of adolescent males of differing sexual identities.  Your link lead me to another title, Amazon.com: Masterminds and Wingmen: Helping Our Boys Cope with Schoolyard Power, Locker-Room Tests, Girlfriends, and the New Rules of Boy World eBook: Rosalind Wiseman: Kindle Store

I read a title by the author a while back called _Queen Bees and Wannabes_ about girls in high school, which helped in the development of our female teenage character, but finding books about boys was harder.  I see these titles are newer, though, so maybe research just got a little easier.


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## Nihal

skip.knox said:


> I think physical traits come most readily to mind, but your story about St Pat's shows there are depths beyond that. Male friendship is an important area. Men play together in particular ways, they are sad together in particular ways, they have a sense of honor and tragedy and courage that is peculiarly male. I've long thought men are the true romantics, not in the sense of romantic love but in the sense of heroic self-sacrifice, of the grand quest, of courage under fire. To quote Donald Fagan: my back to the wall, a victim of laughing chance; this is for me the essence of true romance.  That has always struck me as a specifically male lyric.



You seem to assume that women can't have these exact qualities. Let's pick self-sacrifice as an example: When a man protects a young woman he's being a courageous man, when a woman protects a young man she's acting out of maternal instinct. "Probably just that hormonal stuff," the society would say.

For some mysterious reason the same qualities have different names and different overtones for different genders. Go figure.


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## skip.knox

It may seem that way, but I did not intend it that way. Women can exhibit behaviors of courage, etc. Plenty of examples. What I was trying to say is that courage may manifest in different ways. To take a terribly stereotypical example, a woman might protect her children and show courage doing so, but this resonates differently from a man doing the exact same thing. 

That's what interests me, that there can be connotations, reverberations, that differ by gender. Even more interesting as a fantasy writer is wondering how these "human" characteristics might change with different species. While we don't have any goblins or ogres to examine in our world, we readily recognize the behavior of a mother bear in protecting her cubs, so much so that the image enters our vernacular. From this I surmise that there may indeed be many points of commonality between humans and dwarves or elves or pixies, but there must be different reverberations as well, much as with the differences between men and women. There just seems to be acres of room for exploration here.


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## Caged Maiden

Jupiter asked for examples of male characters who were realistic but not G.I.Joe.  I'd like to think I'm pretty good at writing that.

I have a man who is probably the epitome of a man's man if I let him get that way, (he's a werewolf, super strong and even has a magical presence that terrifies people if he wants to) but he never solves things with violence and he meets a character he treats very tenderly, especially when they are about to split up and he asks her to remain behind on the mission.  She sort of balks and asks, "When did this thing become too dangerous for me?"  He admits he thinks she's pregnant and would feel better not worrying about her, but the thing about their relationship is, she was raped in a prison and he wants to be with her.  He even says, "I've raised children that weren't mine before."  That's sort of his thing.  He wants to be a father, a really good one, because his wife and son died in an outbreak and he's sort of stuck in that place, unwilling or unable to move past it.

So, that's one guy who could be a lot more "manly" by society's standards, but I think makes a perfectly admirable character, though I could have pushed the envelope as to his say, strength or whatever.  And in the next book, that character meets a guy who's struggling with his self-worth.  The werewolf sort of takes on a mentor-ish role in a scene, talking about life and growing old and so much more, but basically instilling confidence in a young soldier who feels past his prime.  Another scene I feel like doesn't rely on societal standards of "manliness".  Instead, the werewolf and his aging grandfather, tell the young soldier how to overcome and share their hard-won life lessons with him, bringing him into their secret world that relies heavily on family ties.

I think that's one fundamental thing I've learned from being married.  Men feel like failures if they cannot provide what they believe they ought to.  Maybe that's money... maybe it's something else.  But I'm lucky to have such a real person to share my life with, because he's certainly made my male MCs more colorful.  That being said... my male MCs tend to verge on my ideals, rather than being any old version of a man I could think of.  I mean... I know a log of jerks I wouldn't want to write a story about.  I prefer to have "good" guys in my stories--not to say they are always nice, and i pretty much write gray scale morality, but they're likeable guys, difficult though they are at times.


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## buyjupiter

Caged Maiden said:


> Jupiter asked for examples of male characters who were realistic but not G.I.Joe.  I'd like to think I'm pretty good at writing that.
> 
> I think that's one fundamental thing I've learned from being married.  Men feel like failures if they cannot provide what they believe they ought to.  Maybe that's money... maybe it's something else.  But I'm lucky to have such a real person to share my life with, because he's certainly made my male MCs more colorful.  That being said... my male MCs tend to verge on my ideals, rather than being any old version of a man I could think of.  I mean... I know a log of jerks I wouldn't want to write a story about.  I prefer to have "good" guys in my stories--not to say they are always nice, and i pretty much write gray scale morality, but they're likeable guys, difficult though they are at times.



A big thank you to Caged and everyone else who's given me some food for thought for my own characters. I have to admit that even though you didn't mean the phrasing, I got a huge chuckle out of imagining a "log of jerks" floating down a stream somewhere to hopefully crash into something! I may have to use that phrase sometime, for when I don't want to curse. 

I am somewhat disappointed to find out that men don't have those conversations about shedding societal definitions of manhood, but I realize there are reasons for that conversation not happening. This expectation that I had previous to talking to you all is probably the direct result of growing up in geek culture, where machismo was not prized, but knowledge and honesty were. And why I flounder when I interact with men who are very much bought into the one "twue" way to be a man. I forget that machismo is even an option until I am confronted with it.

I do wonder if anyone else does find that the "manliness" as defined in comic book heroes differs vastly from the "manliness" defined by your typical action movie hero/war movie? I've typically seen comic book heroes as a little bit too flamboyant to properly fall within the very narrow definition of a man's man. This may be why I will normally go to any comic book movie, or watch animated version of comic books--no matter how bad it may be, rather than go watch an action movie. Yes, in both there is violence as a method of problem solving and very masculine men...but the comic book heroes seem to me to be queering the idea of what the definition of manliness is and I like that a lot.


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## Jabrosky

buyjupiter said:


> I am somewhat disappointed to find out that men don't have those conversations about shedding societal definitions of manhood, but I realize there are reasons for that conversation not happening. This expectation that I had previous to talking to you all is probably the direct result of growing up in geek culture, where machismo was not prized, but knowledge and honesty were.


If this has been your experience, that surprises me. My own experience has convinced me that so-called geeky guys can be at least as sexist as other men. Maybe even more straight-out misogynistic since they tend to see themselves as ranking low on the male sexual totem pole and take their frustrations out on women.


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## Nihal

skip.knox , I apologize if it sounded I was bashing you. I'm aware that you didn't mean it in that light, but I wanted to point out how hypocritical our society can be. That distortion on the perception is actually a pet peeve of mine and if I were a man I would be upset, but I'm a woman, so probably I'm "_on my PMS_". =P


Jabrosky, machismo and misogyny often hold hands but they're not the same issue. 

Being less of an "alpha male", these man in theory have lesser chances of having a relationship (or so do they believe). Instead of taking their frustration on the _bad guys_, these _nice guys_ take it out on the women, who only like _bad guys_. This whole friendzone trend shows us this phenomena well, how somehow the woman is vilified and the guy belonging to a minority is automatically considered a nice guy. The said jerk she chosed instead of the _nice guy_ is never mentioned, nor the _nice guys_ try to achieve or impose manly ideals. The silver lining: If a woman is friendzoned, it's "coz she's ugly".

Another example: Men are geeks, women are posers. For some mysterious reason men aren't required to hand out their geek card to prove they're nerds/geeks, women are. I reckon many of these men use this _title_ to explain why they're single, "women don't like nerds", and having women in the same social group—their haven where they were safe from rejections and expectations—make them incredibly uneasy.


What brings us back to the topic: They have problems coping with rejection and rejection is a kind of failure. Considering what Caged Maiden said of failure that's some good food for thought.


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## Philip Overby

> I am somewhat disappointed to find out that men don't have those conversations about shedding societal definitions of manhood, but I realize there are reasons for that conversation not happening. This expectation that I had previous to talking to you all is probably the direct result of growing up in geek culture, where machismo was not prized, but knowledge and honesty were. And why I flounder when I interact with men who are very much bought into the one "twue" way to be a man. I forget that machismo is even an option until I am confronted with it.



Growing up, no, I never had these conversations. However, I did grow up with mostly a geek lifestyle in a way (playing games, reading books, D&D). I guess my group of friends never cared to think about these things because we were just having fun. 

As I've gotten older though, I have had these discussions with my wife. I feel like I need to do the most I can, but at the same time, I want to have all the time in the world for writing. I realize I can't have my cake and eat it too, so I try to balance it as much as possible.


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## Feo Takahari

buyjupiter said:


> I do wonder if anyone else does find that the "manliness" as defined in comic book heroes differs vastly from the "manliness" defined by your typical action movie hero/war movie? I've typically seen comic book heroes as a little bit too flamboyant to properly fall within the very narrow definition of a man's man. This may be why I will normally go to any comic book movie, or watch animated version of comic books--no matter how bad it may be, rather than go watch an action movie. Yes, in both there is violence as a method of problem solving and very masculine men...but the comic book heroes seem to me to be queering the idea of what the definition of manliness is and I like that a lot.



What do you make of Western heroes? I'm pretty fond of how the genre celebrates restraint--villains do everything to excess, while heroes do what's appropriate for the situation, not even talking unless they have something meaningful to say. (Or as Thecatamites put it, "BOY he's quiet!")


----------



## buyjupiter

Feo Takahari said:


> What do you make of Western heroes? I'm pretty fond of how the genre celebrates restraint--villains do everything to excess, while heroes do what's appropriate for the situation, not even talking unless they have something meaningful to say. (Or as Thecatamites put it, "BOY he's quiet!")



Huh, and again, there's a subtle difference between Western heroes and action movie heroes, at least in my eyes. Which may explain why I like Westerns (as problematic as they are in depicting Native Americans). Although Western heroes and action movie heroes do show the same tendency to be silent, and the villains in those are just as excessive (see Bruce Willis'/Alan Rickman's performances in _Die Hard_), the Western hero tends to be doing what he does to protect something (usually family concerns, like in _3:10 to Yuma_), whereas the action hero seems to get dragged into the situation with nothing but survival on his mind (there are some notable exceptions to this theme, see _Die Hard_ example). I'm not saying I don't ever watch action movies, but it did take me until last year to watch _Die Hard_, even though I love Bruce Willis' and Alan Rickman's performances.

So maybe, upon closer examination there are more ways of being masculine depicted in media and literature than I thought. Although there is the common thread of violence being the solution to most problems, there are different ways to be masculine.

Also, SF action movies are different enough again from action movies that I'll watch those, but they seem to play closer to Western character archetypes for the hero (gotta protect someone) and truly excessive villains. _AI_ is probably the best example that doesn't play the rescuing the damsel in distress card, and the villains in the film are just ordinary people which is why it's creepy...and there wasn't much masculinity in that film, which is understandable since the main characters were androids, but what they do say about masculine representation was interesting. (I realize I'm probably alone in thinking that it's a great film, but I haven't seen it since I got to pick the movie date with my high school sweetheart. And that's probably why I never got to pick another movie for our dates again...)


----------



## Guy

buyjupiter said:


> I am somewhat disappointed to find out that men don't have those conversations about shedding societal definitions of manhood,


Again speaking solely from  my own experience, I've never known men to have conversations among themselves about this, but I have known some who will have conversations with women about it, or with themselves.


> This expectation that I had previous to talking to you all is probably the direct result of growing up in geek culture, where machismo was not prized, but knowledge and honesty were.


I think honestly is a pretty common standard for masculinity, as in "a man's only as good as his word," the chivalric virtue of truth, heroes like Davey Crockett reputed to never tell lies (whether or not it was true is another matter), etc. Many of the male heroes of literature prized honesty even when they were alpha male types, like Beowulf. Knowledge was often associated with older men, like Merlin, or your various Jedi masters, or virtually any role played by Sean Connery or Liam Neeson. Being well educated was considered essential for a Southern gentleman. Courtly manners were, too, yet so was physical courage, leading men in battle, dueling, stuff like that.


> And why I flounder when I interact with men who are very much bought into the one "twue" way to be a man. I forget that machismo is even an option until I am confronted with it.


Residing in the southern U.S. I can't escape it, but I still tend to regard them as I would a different species. More than once when I go somewhere my car is the only sedan in the parking lot. All other vehicles are trucks.


> I do wonder if anyone else does find that the "manliness" as defined in comic book heroes differs vastly from the "manliness" defined by your typical action movie hero/war movie?


Spiderman was always my favorite. Even though he was a superhero, he was still a bookworm, science geek and taken advantage of in his normal life. I always thought the character was very relatable.


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## skip.knox

(@Nihal: no worries; didn't sound like bashing)

OK, examples. Oh, I don't know, let me think a minute ...  Odysseus? Definitely heroic and definitely not your standard bruiser. Aeneus falls in the same vein. Aristophanes gave us a whole range of decidedly male characters. Don Quixote. More recent, you say? How about Dr Who? I would argue the case for Indiana Jones, but if you're not buying, then at least his father. 

Oh, never mind. Yes there is sexism in literature. But it does not therefore follow there is *only* sexism in literature. The crucial question here is whether literature--and I guess we should say fantasy literature--is infected by negative cultural values in a way that somehow needs a cure. That something is wrong here and must be fixed. 

I don't have a strong opinion on it. It would be exhausting to me to attempt an inventory of all fantasy works, then learn enough literary criticism to be able to read all that and come to some conclusion about the extent and nature of bad male stereotypes. Sure they are there. It's easy to name some. But "some" plus "some others" does not necessarily equal "all" or even "most". So I'm just going to write stories that make sense to me and let my readers decide whether I have sinned. At this point I'll just be delighted to get published.


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## Jabrosky

While we're on the subject of favorite male heroic archetypes, I have a soft spot for the "great white hunter" classically exemplified by Allan Quartermain from _King Solomon's Mines_. They combine the erudition of British gentlemen with the survival skills and courage you expect from huntsmen. It's a shame most of them come from older fiction that's saturated with obsolete racial attitudes.

Come to think of it, someone ought to revive the old safari genre of literature. I'm a sucker for exotic jungle adventures, especially those with savage wildlife.


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## Caged Maiden

okay... a little bit of confession then.  Guys talk to me, A LOT.  I'm not sure whether they talk to each other about not feeling "manly" but I'll tell you what... they've talked to me.  I don't want to get too personal, but I once had a guy reject me, ready to go as I was... and I'm not bad looking and at the time had a line of suitors around the corner... but he expressed his fear he wouldn't measure up to my standards (in more than in inches way) and didn't even want to take his clothes off.  We had a lovely cuddle that night and a wonderful friendly chat.  I thought it was kinda one of the bravest things I've ever seen, because I can be sort of... intimidating sometimes.  But I was also touched deep, by his intuition and self-assurance.  For someone who was saying with his mouth that he wasn't confident... the very fact that he told me the truth... was pretty impressive.  I got a new found respect for said friend and we are still friends so many years later.

It's happened other times, too.  I get to hear all kinds of dirty man secrets, being a girl.  Once boys realize they cant get me in the sack, I get elevated to a sort of non-threatening wing man status.  I hang around them and laugh at their jokes and generally have a great time with a friend, and if another girl comes by and finds them interesting, I quietly fade away.  Usually, no other girls show interest and I get to just chat all personal with a guy friend all night, though and it's pretty amazing the things I hear.  Now, I've been told I'm easy to talk to... but seriously, is this experience unique?  I hear about their relationships with fathers, their relationships with their sons, their wives, or exes, the girl they're ogling and can't get over... whatever.  All of it.  More than I want.  And I'm not talking about five or six good friends... virtual strangers do this same thing.  Sort of a lot.  It might not be a discussion of "manliness" in the sense of "I feel most like a man when..." but just by having other conversations, about relationships, family, hobbies, dreams, etc.  You can infer a lot.  

Okay, I'm just positive we know more about what makes men tick than we think, but sometimes you have to scratch the surface.  I base my male characters off things I've witnessed and while I tend to lean toward certain personality types for my novels, it's always easier to sort of take real people and mix actual things they say into my stories.

ahahaha @ jupiter.  it was a "lot" of jerks, but I couldn't edit my typo after five minutes.  I kinda hate that no-editing thing.  It was better when you didn't have to read so closely the first time.  Sorry, spell-check didn't catch it because it made a word.


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## Mindfire

Guy said:


> Residing in the southern U.S. I can't escape it, but I still tend to regard them as I would a different species. More than once when I go somewhere my car is the only sedan in the parking lot. All other vehicles are trucks.



Don't sweat it, Guy. Trucks are for rednecks, dudebros, and workmen. Only one of those is a respectable category.


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## Telcontar

Mindfire said:


> ...Trucks are for rednecks, dudebros, and workmen. Only one of those is a respectable category.



Though a person can easily belong to more than one - and even all three - of these at a time. I have a few cousins like that.

Reading through this thread (which has been interesting, kudos to all participants), I'm fascinated to see how often the concept of "male traits" and "female traits" comes up and is then questioned. When it is called into question, however, it is generally along the form of saying that a woman can exhibit male traits, or that a man can exhibit female traits. 

Forgive me if I've missed it, but I'm not sure I've seen someone say yet that the problem lies with attempting to group any of these traits under a gender in the first place.

An exercise I've been putting myself through lately is planning stories with characters without deciding the character genders beforehand. I'll then go through and randomly assign a gender to each one (male, female, sometimes transgendered) and see how that affects my reception of the plot so far. It exposes a lot of my assumptions about what growing up male or female _means._

I think that there are likely to be certain genetic predispositions that affect men and women in different ways. Tendencies towards nurturing, towards aggression and violence, etc etc. If true, then no doubt these are what helped give rise to gender roles in the first place - but in an advanced society where we allow that every individual should be allowed to express whatever traits come most naturally to them, I'd hope we'll eventually do away with gendered traits entirely... or at least trend towards that ideal.


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## Steerpike

As an aside, I know a lesbian who drives a truck and fits into none of Mindfire's categories 



Telcontar said:


> Forgive me if I've missed it, but I'm not sure I've seen someone say yet that the problem lies with attempting to group any of these traits under a gender in the first place.



Yeah, I think this is a big part of the problem with discussions of gender. Of course, people are speaking, I assume, of 'traditional' male and female roles as they've existed historically under a patriarchal system. But it seems to me that one has conceded too much ground too early if one uses that as a starting place.


----------



## Devor

I've seen grown straight men have these conversations.  Things can get real, man.  There's a lot of guys out there who really resent being told not to cry.  On the flip side of that gender conversation, I don't even want to think about what many guys think of women.  It's scary.


((edit to add: ))



Telcontar said:


> I think that there are likely to be certain genetic predispositions that affect men and women in different ways. Tendencies towards nurturing, towards aggression and violence, etc etc. If true, then no doubt these are what helped give rise to gender roles in the first place - but in an advanced society where we allow that every individual should be allowed to express whatever traits come most naturally to them, I'd hope we'll eventually do away with gendered traits entirely... or at least trend towards that ideal.



In psychology, they look at the "Big Five" personality traits and how they differ between men and women.  In the developed world, the gender difference is _bigger_, not smaller, and the difference is almost entirely because _men_ are behaving more "manly."  That is, our testosterone levels are higher here in the US/Europe than elsewhere.

I don't know entirely what to make of that, but it doesn't suggest that these differences are going to go away as we get even more developed.  If anything, I would think modern society gives us more room to specialize our behaviors and let natural gender differences grow along with other natural differences that people have.


----------



## Caged Maiden

That's true... men who are more likely to "talk" to me about their problems are probably less like my dad and more like my husband.  My whole life I respected my dad.  Never saw him cry, never saw him meet a situation he couldn't handle with silent, calm perseverence, etc.  He's not an emotional person.  However, fr a very brief time, right after my mom left him (I was 20), I became his friend and got to experience his emotional side.  It was very brief, but it left a lasting impression.  I think men tend to be more rational than women, as a general rule, especially in my parents' generation (they're 54 now).  Now, young men and women tend to be more open about feelings than they were a half century ago, but is that because they've changed, or is it society tht now says it's okay for women to be callous and for men to be more sensitive?

I have three boys and a girl, and my girl is the roughest one.  She taught my boys to be rough and dirty, and didn't learn it from them.  I think as young people, we are what we are, and then the world molds us from there.  It's true there are gender differences that cannot really be simple examples of "societal influence".  One example being that little girls have better fine motor skills than boys, and another that young girls play in groups and little boys play all in the same room, but each driving his own truck around.  All children might not fit neatly into those examples, but most do.

I think my husband is the best father I've ever witnessed.  He loves kids.  In fact, before we had our own, he often stopped to talk to other people's kids and got more than one odd stare.  I had to explain to him that Americans aren't really sure what to do with a man who just likes to play with kids... that they tend to think him a weirdo or someone who has an inappropriate attraction to children.  However... I think in history, before molestation was the obvious conclusion people would jump to, it wasn't necessarily odd for a man to enjoy talking to children and being not only a teacher, but  mentor.  Children went to foster in their preteen years and often lived with uncles and aunts or wealthier relatives.  Children really do need a village and men were a part of the human history village.

I think in the past, men were proud of their name and the honor they upheld for the sake of their family name.  That doesn't really exist now in America, but I believe a part of it lingers in a personal code of honor many men feel.

My grandfather was a brick-layer.  In the winter, when he was out of work, he'd make my grandmother get in the mail so the neighbors wouldn't see him home in the middle of the day.  That was a big deal to him... that he was a seasonal worker and he felt ashamed.  Why though?  Would any man feel the same today?  He made enough money in the summer months to feed and clothe his family all year.  He even had a nice house and wasn't at all poor.  I know men who are teachers and they LOVE their summer vacations.  So... why was it such a big deal to my grandfather?  I don't know.

I think a lot of what makes any person, male or female, feel good about their self, is in part due to their upbringing.  My parents have a set of ethics they've passed on, and it was partly shaped by their parents.  I am raising my children another way, but in part, based upon the values my parents gave to me.


----------



## buyjupiter

Caged Maiden said:


> okay... a little bit of confession then.  Guys talk to me, A LOT.  I'm not sure whether they talk to each other about not feeling "manly" but I'll tell you what... they've talked to me....
> 
> It's happened other times, too.  I get to hear all kinds of dirty man secrets, being a girl.  Once boys realize they cant get me in the sack, I get elevated to a sort of non-threatening wing man status...
> 
> ahahaha @ jupiter.  it was a "lot" of jerks, but I couldn't edit my typo after five minutes.  I kinda hate that no-editing thing.  It was better when you didn't have to read so closely the first time.  Sorry, spell-check didn't catch it because it made a word.



Yeah, I have had more platonic guy friends than gal friends and I've heard a lot of interesting things over the years. I also frequently get the "I've just been out drinking with the buddies and now I'm drunk and I miss my ex and will you listen to me for a few minutes" phone calls at 3AM. There have been tears before.

I've heard more man secrets in relationships than I do with my platonic friends. Which kinda surprised me because I figured that guys would toe the party line, especially when I've heard them make comments to their friends about certain things like bisexual women being super amazing...and then behind closed doors there's insecurity because well, I've dated both men and women and they're afraid I won't be happy with just them. (_That_ was an interesting conversation.)

I know what you meant, I just got the image in my head and giggled before I figured out the word you did mean. And I appreciate the giggle. 

@Devor, I've heard from a lot of guys that they hate crying, because they see it as shameful and/or they've been shamed for it (chicken and egg thing here)...and are surprised when I don't try to shame them. I see crying as normal and a healthy release valve, better than punching holes in walls, and I would rather see everybody be a little more emotional than try to contain everything until they explode. 

This is a big side note, but yesterday I read a list of tips for Japanese tourists coming to America for the first time. Reading about my own cultural beliefs (American) and the reasoning for why we do some of the etiquette things that we do gave me a really interesting glimpse into our own culture. And for the record, I had no idea that putting my hand over my mouth when I laugh is considered rude, as if I were hiding something. I do it because I saw my mom do it who saw everybody in Japan do it when she was a little kid.


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## Caged Maiden

One more example of manliness I'd like to share...

When I was ten, my father and uncle took me and my brother through the woods they grew up in, right by my grandma's house.  (I should say that my dad was the man of the house at sixteen, when his father died young of stomach cancer, leaving behind a wife (36) with four children (16, 15, 12, and 8).)

We hiked all day and had a lovely exploration, but we got stuck on the wrong side of a huge wall of brambles, no way around them.  Eventually, my dad decided we had to cut across.  He waded into the bushes, propping them up with his back, and held them up for us to go through.  Now that I'm reading Prince of Thorns, I smile when I think of Jorg in the thorn bush, because I recall the blood showing through my dad's sleeves as he bore the brunt of the prickers to clear the way for his children.  We didn't have a scratch on us as we exited, but he never complained.  It was a good day.  

That single memory left such an impression with me, I wrote it into a novel.  In one book, a man (Aethan) who lost his family in a tragic accident, marries a young woman (Alayna) who is raising her son/ brother (Ian), the product of incest rape.  He marries her, proclaiming her son his heir until she gives him another son, at which time, the step-son (Ian) will be given a title, but the blood son would be the inheriting son.  Okay... so cut to the future... the daughter of those people Ayleth, half-sister to Ian), meets her family (she's seventeen).  She decided she hates Aethan and Alayna for giving her away as a baby, for a friend to raise.  Ian pulls her aside and tells her the bramble story, saying, "You don't know him as a father, and I'm sorry for that, but I do.  He's the finest man I've eve met and he was more of a father to me than I ever could have asked for.  Give him a chance."

I am lucky to have friends who gladly step in as surrogate fathers for me.  I have one friend who has two grown kids, and when I brought my son to archery practice, I lost patience with him in a short amount of time.  My friend took my son's hand and said, "May I teach him?" and I was extremely happy to allow someone else to be the mentor, rather than me.  Another friend of mine has an infant of his own, but is raising his wife's two children from her first marriage.  When I let my kids take the day off school to go to their house for chicken butchering, my two older sons totally followed him around and did whatever he was doing (plucking the dead hens, holding them before the heading, whatever).  I mean, my boys love my female friends too, but I think they were just so excited that a grown man wanted to hang out with them... they loved being his little mini-me for the afternoon.

I guess... it is really important that children have both male and female role models around, not to learn how to "be a man", but more to know that men care too and that they can share equally wonderful life experiences and lessons with young people.  For me (growing up with a stay at home mom and a dad who worked hard), I tended to hang out with my mom more (and give her a little more hell) but I took every ounce of dad-time I got because it was in shorter supply.  Now, I see the same dynamic with my own family.  I do all the day-to-day stuff and my husband gets to be the guy who takes them bowling on Saturdays.  

I want my children to look back and know that we equally cared, even though I did 90% of the parenting.  That's the price a man pays if he wants to work hard to support his family.  But... the trade-off is that we get to do things like I did with my dad, when I was young.  It was my dad who taught me to bait a hook but it was my mom who taught me how to gut fish.  My mom taught me to pick blackberries and make them into pie... and my dad sacrificed his blood when the blackberry bush was in our way.


----------



## Mindfire

Steerpike said:


> As an aside, I know a lesbian who drives a truck and fits into none of Mindfire's categories



There will always be outliers.


----------



## Gurkhal

Very interesting thread. Keep it coming people.


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## Jabrosky

This might derail the thread, but I didn't think the question I wanted to pose was worth its own new thread.

A lot  of the stories I think up have one leading man and woman, but this time  I am pondering whether I should give my male lead two simultaneous  female love interests. The first woman is a tribal warrior/huntress who  escorts him to a civilization hidden deep in the jungle, whereas the  second is the matriarchal ruler of that civilization. He ends up falling  for both or at least sleeping with both, and what's more, this bothers neither lady since both come  from cultures that accept polygamy. I anticipate that in the end he  officially marries the queen while the warrior returns to her tribe some  distance away. The warrior isn't really the family-oriented type  anyway.

Would this kind of bigamous relationship bother anyone here?


----------



## Philip Overby

Hmm...that's hard to say. I thought you meant a love triangle at first. If that was the case, then it's kind of a common arc in stories. A character falls in love with two different women, has to make a choice, etc. Not sure how this kind of relationship would be viewed by most of the public.


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## Jabrosky

Philip Overby said:


> Hmm...that's hard to say. I thought you meant a love triangle at first. If that was the case, then it's kind of a common arc in stories. A character falls in love with two different women, has to make a choice, etc. Not sure how this kind of relationship would be viewed by most of the public.


I'm still trying to iron out my plot at the moment, so it won't be a huge loss for me to discard this angle.


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## psychotick

Hi,

In my view it's hard for any man to truly understand a woman and vice versa. Which is why we end up with these stereotypical male and female characters. And it's why I write men rather than woman as my MC's. It's simply what I know as a man. But to give a recent example of how this lack of understanding can shock, I'd look to my editors comments on one of my books. Actually my last one.

In it I wrote about a man going through a series of bizarre changes as his body mutates due to mad science going wrong (when exactly does it ever go right??) And one of those changes early on was when he lost his sexual drive - not his equipment so to speak, just his desire. For me writing this as a man who had once been a younger, fitter university student, I tried to write this for the true horror / nightmare it is. There are of course men who do go through this for one reason or another, and in time they learn to adjust to life as a sexless being more or less. Just as people learn to live with missing limbs or blindness etc. But no guy in his sexual prime could ever see such a loss as anything other than a complete disaster. A complete loss of who a man is.

My editor who also happens to be my sister and therefore a woman, had enormous problems understanding why I was making this into such a big thing. To her the loss was only about a loss of desire, and therefore not the end of the world. And no matter how I tried to explain it to her, she couldn't really seem to grasp that for a man at least, his sexual drive is about far more than just desire. It's almost the foundation of male identity. Whether men are successful with women or not, alpha male or geek, probably even gay or straight, that sexual drive is fundamental to concepts of self worth, self esteem, identity, pride, status perceived and / or real, and in short masculinity. And I being a man kept wondering how she could not understand that.

On a sort of related note, a friend of mine was once long ago abused by a woman (actually several) because he would not continue a relationship with a woman who had a child. As he said to her he would not be a father to another man's child. Naturally enough I suppose this provoked a strong reaction from the woman (who it must be pointed out had not actually told him she had a child until after the relationship had progressed to a certain level) and abused him for a long time to follow. Again this is simply an extension of the different understandings of the world between men and women. 

Partly it's a personal insecurity issue. After all there is no woman in the world who can ever have a baby and then start wondering -is this baby mine? But men do worry about that and I don't think woman always understand how powerful a drive it is. Partly it's about masculinity and possessiveness. And again it may be ugly but men, perhaps not all but many, do divide up the world, including people etc, into two groups. What is theirs and what isn't. And for many men the child of another man will always be just that and never theirs. Partly it's about a whole lot of other things like freedom and not being tied down by a family. Some men can get past this and become great step fathers. Some men can't. And tragically some men try and fail which is unfortunately reflected in the statistics of child abuse etc. A think from memory a child raised in a home where a non biological male parent is present is seven or eight times more likely to be abused compared to a child raised in a home where the biological father is present.

To ad to this, and I have absolutely no stats for this, I'm certain that the number of women without partners who can't have children and go to lengths like trying to adopt, vastly outweighs the number of partnerless men who try to adopt. For many woman the need / desire to be a parent outweighs the need for the child to be theirs. For men not so much.

I think the take home message from all of this is that men have an instinctual almost primal need to "know" that a child is theirs in order to be able to act as a parent. Some men can get around this "knowing" through a sort of emotional bonding which can overcome the actual knowledge that the child is not theirs. And as a corollary many woman do not seem to understand how powerful that need is simply because they do not share it to the same extent.

In the end I think men and women are actually quite different in their emotional / psychological make up and it's very hard for either to get in the head space of the other.

Cheers, Greg.


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## skip.knox

Today I was walking my dogs when I saw a dead bird (this is on topic, I promise). It was a blackbird, young, having died nearly two weeks ago. I know this because of the memorial stone next to it.

The stone, a little smaller than the palm of my hand, appeared only in the last couple of days; I was on my regular route and I had not noticed it previously. And I would have, for it was propped carefully up next to the body, painted a light blue, with the message hand-lettered. This is what the message said:

Blackbird chick
died Feb 12 
2014

A couple of things struck me about this little memorial. One was that it must have been made by a young girl. Both adjective and noun are relevant, for it strikes me unlikely that a boy should have made this, or that an adult of either gender would have done so. In fact, I'd go so far as to guess she is somewhere between the ages of nine and seventeen. I do not preclude the possibility of the stone having been placed there by an elderly gentleman, but that ain't the way to bet.

The other thing that struck me was the thoughtfulness behind the stone--not the "oh poor dead birdy" thoughtfulness but the exactitude. Not only the caring but the carefulness. This girl (let us have her be one for now) did not disturb the bird but left it exactly as it lay, shoved up against a cyclone fence, amid last autumn's leaves. She could have said "dead bird" but she identified it as a blackbird chick. She wrote the date, which means she had observed it some time earlier, had remembered the date, and had thought it important to record it. She took the time to find an appropriate stone on which to compose her message, and she decorated it rather than leave it plain, but she forebore to paint hearts or smiley faces or angels. Just the facts. There is a precision of mind and observation here. I took a picture; my way of commemorating.

How does this relate to our thread? Not to manliness, no, but to the larger theme. Most of the talk about gender differences focuses on negative aspects or on arguing whether differences are societal or natural. I've rather given up on that sort of discussion. To me, this little tableau demonstrates not only there are differences between gender (and differences between age, a topic on which few disagree), but that the differences are *interesting*. As a writer, I say the more differences the better. They give me space to explore. But even as I make sweeping generalizations (i.e., this had to have been done by a young girl), I see the individual in her careful precision. Not merely young, not merely a girl, but a particular, specific girl. The politician, the polemicist, they stop at the generalization and never tire of their arguing. The writer looks at the individual and never tires of the finding.


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## Jabrosky

psychotick said:


> In my view it's hard for any man to truly understand a woman and vice versa. Which is why we end up with these stereotypical male and female characters. And it's why I write men rather than woman as my MC's. It's simply what I know as a man.


The vast majority of my own protagonists are either white men or black women. I write white guys because I am a white guy myself, and I write black ladies because they're whom I feel most attracted to (don't ask why). I have to conclude that it's easier for me to write white male heroes than black female ones. This is in part because I can draw upon my own experiences as a white male, but I also feel there's a lot more political tightrope-walking when it comes to writing women or non-European characters. 

Actually, I lay part of that tightrope out myself. I _want _my black female heroines to be attractive both inside and out, because I don't like the racial and gendered stereotypes traditionally used to devalue them. But that may be a digression for another topic.

That said, all my stories with white male heroes still have black leading ladies whom they pair up with. What can I say, I'm starved for female company.


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## Devor

psychotick said:


> And no matter how I tried to explain it to her, she couldn't really seem to grasp that for a man at least, his sexual drive is about far more than just desire. It's almost the foundation of male identity.



As a man I have just . . . _so many_ problems with this statement.  I don't even know where to begin.

It's true that the male sex drive tends to work a little differently than the female sex drive.  It's also fair enough that some guy in college who's made sex into a big deal in his life might see losing it as a nightmare.  But your _sex drive_ as the foundation of the male identity?  That sounds sad.




> I think the take home message from all of this is that men have an instinctual almost primal need to "know" that a child is theirs in order to be able to act as a parent.



I don't think so at all.  There are many, many men who want to adopt children, and stories about wicked stepmothers are also pretty common.  Even in your example it sounds like there were a great many of other issues involved, like how the child was kept a secret, and the pattern of abuse which followed after the relationship almost certainly stemmed from characteristics which would have been present during the relationship.  I don't see how you jump from that example to some kind of an intrinsic need.  It seems like a big leap.


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## Caged Maiden

I have to agree with Devor on this one.  I found this posting disturbing for a bunch of reasons, and I didn't say anything because I'm not a man so maybe I don't have a right?  I have several male friends raising children who aren't theirs, and to watch them... You can tell there is love flowing out of them that is genuine.  I even have a friend who never wanted children... he dated a woman when he was 43, who had a nine-year-old daughter and he LOVED that girl.  He used to vent to me about his relationship and he wanted to break it off with the woman because she had craziness problems.  But he didn't want to because he loved the daughter so much.  He used to talk about all the wonderful things he got to do with her and how he just reveled in seeing the world through a child's eyes.  But he had no legal right to be her parent.  The only way he got to be a part of that little girl''s life is if he kept dating the mom (who had a lot of control issues, money issues, insecurities... a life with someone like that can be really hellish).

Also... I've met quite a few men over the years that would try to mount anything with legs... but I've met many more who loved their women and were faithful... sometimes to a fault.  I mean... there comes a point when you need to know you CAN leave.  Especially when things aren't healthy.  You need to get back out of your comfortable corner you painted yourself into and find a better woman with which to share your life.  Not everyone makes a good partner just because they're faithful.  In fact... sometimes I think faithfulness can lead to real laziness... in a relationship-destroying way.  As much as unbridled jealousy.

So I get it.  I have a high sex drive and I have since I was young.  I'm not ashamed to have slept with a few people I didn't know their names.  Nor the friends I've crossed the lines with, out of the blue sticking my hand down their pants or whatever.  No one ever seemed to mind.  But... there's a lot to me... and I tend to feel that people who count notches in their bedposts are missing something pretty big about the experience.  And I think ideas have changed in a world where one in five American adults has herpes.  It was a little different in the nineties when I was sleeping with high school kids who were pretty safe.  I can't imagine being a promiscuous adult... scary.  Really scary.

So... thanks Devor.  I know a lot of men and they're a varied lot.  Some are good fathers to children they didn't sire, others run from any sort of commitment.  Some have a habit of making the rounds, telling every twenty-year old woman they meet that they're special... others are twenty-year old virgins.  I think thare is validity in all ways of being and honestly... it's a great thing, because as a writer, it keeps me thinking about characters and gives me a lot of tools.

Historical Romance is not a creative genre.  It begins with a woman so damn gorgeous her father/ the nuns/ her brother locked her away from the world that couldn't handle her beauty... and ends when she tames the wild, womanizing knight by cleaning his house.  The men are all-night studs with muscles and a poet's heart.  The women are all virgins who somehow never knew what they were missing but as soon as they do, their hearts explode with passion because let's be real, ladies... sex is the BEST thing in the world and it's what we're all sadly missing.  NOT!  Yeah, I have two dozen books on my shelf with that EXACT plot.

I think the thing that sets fantasy aside (at least for me) is that you can take it anywhere.  I write romantic fantasy... but I'm certainly no romance writer.  Any reader of the genre would be horrified to read my stories, where my male leads aren't typical studs and my ladies aren't pliant virgins.  In fact... my intimate scenes are awkward, sometimes funny, and all real.  Fantasy allows us to look deeper into our heroes and decide which flaws we want to bring to light--which weaknesses can be turned into strengths, and how people grow when forced to.  I think it's the perfect opportunity to play with men and women who might not have seemed remarkable, but make them anything but ordinary in the end.  I write average joes who accomplish extraordinary things when the time calls for it--those are my men.


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## Telcontar

This is an interesting branch in the conversation for me. "The foundation of male identity..."

I'll start off by repeating what I implied earlier - I no longer believe in any such thing as male identity. Nor female, of course. Only personal identity. Any legitimate pillars of self-worth would apply to all genders by necessity. However, this was not always my view.

Back when I did believe in a distinctly male identity, it was actually wrapped up in... well, violence, to put it bluntly. The ability to do violence, to back up one's will _with_ violence (if necessary). Being a lifelong martial artist and a very capable fighter, I always thought of this as my personal self-worth "trump card." I might not be as good at basketball, or as handsome, or as good a singer... but if it came down to that most basic of competitions I had an advantage. I was the "manlier" person cuz I would win in a fight.

Oddly enough it was in helping a friend that first helped knock this moronic opinion right on its ass where it belonged (ya see what I did there?  ).

A buddy of mine had a problem with being bullied. He was smaller, bookish, self-esteem issues. Actually pretty similar to me before I got into martial arts. I stood up for him one day to one of the more obnoxious jerks in the school. I realized after the altercation that my friend couldn't even look the other guy in the eye. I was forced to realize that he was absolutely terrified of getting into a physical fight. I was forced to either question my belief or lose respect for my friend - who I knew to be an awesome guy.

By trying to rely on my strengths as the "true route to manliness" I was insulting good people who lacked what I happened to have. It was a pretty important shift in my perceptions.

Anyway, personal stories aside, no one thing is the center of being a good person. Wrapping our self-worth up in any single element is foolish, due to the above and due to the fact that things change, accidents happen, and those elements can be lost. Don't build a temple on a single pillar.

As an aside, I'm of the opinion that the desire to only raise children that are genetically yours was originally an evolutionary imperative and then a matter of politics (succession, etc). Now it's just historical inertia and no longer serves a useful purpose.


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## Svrtnsse

I'd say Greg (psychotic) has a point though. I don't fully agree with and I don't feel like it applies to myself, but I've seen it apply to others. I wouldn't say that the importance of the sexual drive as a defining characteristic is a universally manly trait, but I know men for which it is.

I'm pretty sure it's a cultural thing - like so many others.

Some anecdotes:

Me and a friend had quite a falling out over this a while back. We used to go out and have a pint and a good time together but eventually it stopped being fun. His primary purpose for going out was to try and meet a girl to hook up with, and he couldn't understand it wasn't the same for me. He tried to teach me all kinds of ways to start talking to women and what to say etc - while I personally just wasn't all that interested.
I tried a bit, but it just wasn't my thing and I failed. He tried a lot but failed anyway - for other reasons.
In the end we just argued about it and since then we don't go out anymore.

Bit of a shitty experience, but I think it's a good example of how some men really do have a very strong sex drive and how they let it influence whatever they do.

This guy also had the issue with other men's children that was mentioned earlier. Some years ago he had a falling out with his GF at the time. Things went sour and she went and got pregnant with some other guy (who my friend strongly disapproves of since way before then). A few years later, after the kid is born etc the girl is in trouble and wants to get back with my friend. There's still something there, but he just can't do it, because of the kid.

Now these are just anecdotes involving one person. They don't prove anything in the general case, but they indicate that there definitely are men for whom their sexual drive really is a very big deal - just like Greg says.


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## Feo Takahari

In retrospect, I'm not sure why I didn't post this earlier.

I'm queer. Masculinity is the framework in which a big beardy fellow like me is expected to operate, so I'm pretty familiar with it, but it's never something that's felt like _me_. My identity development went through a few stages:

1: I must be a man! But I'm not very good at it.

2: I have an identity! I have a me! So when someone says something about men, and that sounds nothing like me, I'm going to tell them that can't be universal, because I'm not like that!

3: Crap; I don't identify as male. When someone says all men are some way, I won't say anything, because I'm not a man, so I can't judge.

But I was able to get past step 1 because I live in a town where they don't throw rocks at you if they think you might be queer. And I was able to get past step 2 because I've been taught about what it actually means to be queer and have the language to identify myself as it. If I grew up in a more hateful or ignorant environment, I think I would still be chafing against the restrictions of "male," either quietly or loudly.

In other words, pick any essay about what "men" are, and there are going to be a lot of people who call themselves men who nonetheless feel completely alienated from that.


----------



## Devor

There are chemicals involved in some of these concepts.  Testosterone is known as the power hormone for a reason, and men have more of it.  The male brain also changes twice when it's flooded with it, in the womb and at puberty.  It can also mess with the balance of your other hormones, especially by reducing the stress hormone cortisol.

So there are, let's say "universal tendencies" underlying what might be called a male impulse, and a whole lot of societal stuff built on top of it, much of it harmful. But I do think in a conversation like this it's useful to recognize that the tendencies are there, that they are rooted in something real, and that insomuch as they may or may not play a large part of your personal bio-psychology, it can be beneficial to accept them.

Though of course, never mistake having an impulse to mean a lack of choice.


----------



## skip.knox

@psychotick: I disagree with you and your sister.  
Having your character lose his sex drive and having that be disastrous for him is fine by me, if and only if you have established the importance of sex for this specific character. Not because he's a male of a species, but because he is that particular male. You could certainly have other male aspects reinforce this (e.g., disapproval from his father because he'll never sire a son, or contempt from his peers because he won't carouse), but ultimately if you want me to believe the story based solely on gender roles, you're going to lose me. You could just as readily write a story about a woman losing her sex drive and having that be her catastrophe, but again only if you have established this aspect of life is hugely important for her.

That's my reaction, anyway.


----------



## Feo Takahari

skip.knox said:


> You could just as readily write a story about a woman losing her sex drive and having that be her catastrophe, but again only if you have established this aspect of life is hugely important for her.



Off-topic: when this is done for female characters, I almost always see it done as them losing their chance or ability to have children, not their sex drive. I've seen this done by authors who seem to be male and by an author who seems to be female. (The latter did it particularly well, emphasizing the protagonist's promise to her mother that she'd someday raise children and continue her family line. She winds up raising some orphaned aliens, and she gives them the armbands her mother gave her.)


----------



## Gurkhal

I'm male and I've never seen any problem is having that as part of my identity.


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## Ireth

Feo Takahari said:


> Off-topic: when this is done for female characters, I almost always see it done as them losing their chance or ability to have children, not their sex drive. I've seen this done by authors who seem to be male and by an author who seems to be female.



One of the male characters in Winter's Queen is a Fae who, in his backstory, is caught in an illicit relationship and consequently cursed with sterility. He still has a sex drive, he just can't father children, and that is a catastrophe to him, because children are a huge part of his life goals. Out of desperation he winds up attempting to kidnap a human infant to raise as his own, which has drastic impact on the present plot of the book. Especially when the girl he'd tried to kidnap, now a young woman, realizes who he is after befriending him in ignorance. For the record, he made no attempts to harm her in the past or the present. Kidnapping human children to adopt them is perfectly normal and accepted in Fae culture, and he was acting out of a need to love and be loved, not out of malice toward the girl's parents.


----------



## Penpilot

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> his sexual drive is about far more than just desire. It's almost the foundation of male identity. Whether men are successful with women or not, alpha male or geek, probably even gay or straight, that sexual drive is fundamental to concepts of self worth, self esteem, identity, pride, status perceived and / or real, and in short masculinity. And I being a man kept wondering how she could not understand that.



I couldn't disagree more. For me as a man, I have never though any of those things were linked to my sex drive.  



psychotick said:


> I think the take home message from all of this is that men have an instinctual almost primal need to "know" that a child is theirs in order to be able to act as a parent. Some men can get around this "knowing" through a sort of emotional bonding which can overcome the actual knowledge that the child is not theirs. And as a corollary many woman do not seem to understand how powerful that need is simply because they do not share it to the same extent.



I don't agree. I know multiple people who are raising children who are not biologically theirs, ranging in ages from teens to toddlers. 

As humans, we are biologically geared toward protecting children, with certain exceptions of course. If there's a child lost and crying at the fair, there's always someone who stops and helps, male or female. One time this was me doing the helping. I told the kid we'd find his mom. He gave me that half-crying nod and we found her a minute later, about 20 feet away.

Now, if we turn back the clock and this was a few thousand years ago, and this was the forest, and instead of finding the parents we don't, what do you think a person would do? Sorry kid, you're on your own? No, I don't think so. IMHO, after a solid search for the parents, anyone would take the kid and take care of them.

If we skip to modern times, there are plenty of instances where a kid gets taken in by a friend's family because their real family doesn't care. Or in war torn countries a kid gets adopted by a neighbor because their parents were killed.


This article states that the amount of single men adopting is on the rise. But there are issues outside of being a fit parent that are in the way.
GMA: More Men Adopting Children Alone - ABC News

The statistics. According to a 2013 National Survey of Adoptive Parents, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 27 percent of adoptive parents are single men and women. Approximately 22.7 percent are female, 5.5 percent male. I don't know if that counts as vastly out weights.


Single Parent Adoption, Single Mother Adoption, Single Father Adoption - A Love Beyond Borders - Denver Colorado

Adoption Statistics | Statistic Brain


----------



## A. E. Lowan

I find this discussion to be fascinating.  What I'm taking away so far is that men are just as complicated and diverse as women, which makes me very happy, both as a writer of male characters and as a person!  We talk so much about women that talking about and hearing so honestly from men about men is wonderful and a rare treat.  Please, gentlemen, keep talking!


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## psychotick

Hi Guys,

Sorry to have put the cat among the pigeons so to speak - and yet also not. Yes the topic can be a little disturbing, but it's also important and discussion can be value.

So to begin, first let me say that I am speaking from experience - my experience as a white male born and raised in New Zealand - a country known for its three R's type culture (Rugby, racing and rooting - I didn't make that up.) And while I am generalising from my experiences and many men may have completely difference experiences / understandings of masculinity, I still believe that what I am saying will apply to all men to varying extents. Some will fall further along the spectrum towards this masculine imperitive, some will fall closer to the "modern / evolved man" stereotype. Something that is exemplified by the statistics in adoption by single fathers as given (and yes a 5% to 22% difference in rates is quite a heavy distinction - it represents a four and a half to one ratio - and speaking from my own personal bias I would have expected it to be higher. I know many single women who have adopted in one way or another a child, but not one case of a single man doing it.) There are of course social and cultural values involved as said, but perhaps men and society really are evolving.) 

They're also represented in the stats on child abuse: I took this from Dr Phil! -

•A child with a biological mother who lives alone is 14 times more likely to suffer abuse.
•A child with a biological father who lives alone is 20 times more likely to suffer abuse. 
•A child with biological parents who are cohabitating but not married is 20 times more likely to suffer abuse.
•A child with a biological mother who is living with a man who is not the child’s father is 33 times more likely to suffer abuse. (Source: Dreamcatchers for Abused Children)
Dr. Phil.com - Advice - Parenting in the Real World: Shocking Statistics

Studies also show that emasculation / castration has a huge negative psychological impact upon the male psyche - this is seen most commonly in men who have suffered prostrate cancer and been put on Androgen Deprivation Therapy which is effectively a form of chemical castration and affects roughly half a million men in the US alone. These men specifically feel unmanly and that feeds directly into a lot of self esteem type problems: EBSCOhost | 72365395 | Quality of life issues in men undergoing androgen deprivation therapy: a review.

Taken together I think these things feed into a concept of masculinity that's rather akin to baking a cake. One cake may have more flour and less sugar than another. Baking soda, colouring, flavouring and fruit may all vary as well. We are all slightly different in our ingredients. And so some cakes will be naturally sweeter etc than others. It's hard therefore to say that simply removing one ingredient entirely say flour (the male sex drive etc) will affect all cakes equally. Some will do better, some worse. Some will be more palatable than others. But all will be affected. And it's hard to see how a cake will be affected when one comes at it from the perspective of another cake that did not have that ingredient to begin with. (Sory - it's a little mixed up as analogies go!)

To sort of return to the topic, I think that it would be difficult for me as a man to write the perspective of a woman fairly. I can bridge this difficulty to an extent by talking to woman and trying to understand them better. But I cannot walk in their high heels so to speak!

Which reminds me of another common male understanding about women. High heels and being dressed up. Speaking purely as a male (call me a caveman if you like!) When I see a woman dressed up in high heels and a revealing outfit I find it hard to imagine that the woman has worn that outfit for reasons other than to attract a male. I am told by many woman that they dress in such a way because it makes them feel good etc and has nothing to do with men. But as a man I find that very hard to accept. Perhaps because if I wanted to dress to feel good I would be wearing jeans a loose T shirt and bare feet. I value comfort far more than appearance. (Having said that I also don't understand this metro-sexual thing either! I will never shave my body hair, use perfume / aftershave, I won't put gel in my hair or wear skin tight pants, and I shave when I damned well want to with a blade and soap not some gunky product! But hey - I'm a happy caveman!)

Cheers, Greg.


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## Devor

psychotick said:


> Something that is exemplified by the statistics in adoption by single fathers as given (and yes a 5% to 22% difference in rates is quite a heavy distinction - it represents a four and a half to one ratio - and speaking from my own personal bias I would have expected it to be higher.



Single people adopt when they're old and well-to-do.  Be real, how many well-to-do middle aged men are single compared to well-to-do middle-aged women?  22% to 4% might as well be a reflection of the base rate.




> They're also represented in the stats on child abuse: I took this from Dr Phil! -
> 
> -A child with a biological mother who lives alone is 14 times more likely to suffer abuse.
> -A child with a biological father who lives alone is 20 times more likely to suffer abuse.
> -A child with biological parents who are cohabitating but not married is 20 times more likely to suffer abuse.
> -A child with a biological mother who is living with a man who is not the child’s father is 33 times more likely to suffer abuse. (Source: Dreamcatchers for Abused Children)
> Dr. Phil.com - Advice - Parenting in the Real World: Shocking Statistics



More honesty, half the time abuse is synonymous with poverty, and the only way the father ever gets sole custody is if the mother is extremely messed up.  These stats don't mean anything about the definition of manhood.




> Studies also show that emasculation / castration has a huge negative psychological impact upon the male psyche -



No kidding.




> To sort of return to the topic, I think that it would be difficult for me as a man to write the perspective of a woman fairly. I can bridge this difficulty to an extent by talking to woman and trying to understand them better. But I cannot walk in their high heels so to speak!



There are differences, and it's not hard for me to understand why some men in particular might have trouble bridging them.  We've had the female POV discussion before, though, and I'd rather not see it hijack the fairly less common take we have going in this one.




> I am told by many woman that they dress in such a way because it makes them feel good etc and has nothing to do with men. But as a man I find that very hard to accept. Perhaps because if I wanted to dress to feel good I would be wearing jeans a loose T shirt and bare feet.



I've worn suits just to affect my mood - and it does.


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## Nihal

psychotick said:


> Which reminds me of another common male understanding about women. High heels and being dressed up. Speaking purely as a male (call me a caveman if you like!) When I see a woman dressed up in high heels and a revealing outfit I find it hard to imagine that the woman has worn that outfit for reasons other than to attract a male. I am told by many woman that they dress in such a way because it makes them feel good etc and has nothing to do with men. But as a man I find that very hard to accept. Perhaps because if I wanted to dress to feel good I would be wearing jeans a loose T shirt and bare feet. I value comfort far more than appearance. (Having said that I also don't understand this metro-sexual thing either! I will never shave my body hair, use perfume / aftershave, I won't put gel in my hair or wear skin tight pants, and I shave when I damned well want to with a blade and soap not some gunky product! But hey - I'm a happy caveman!).



Then you'd better start to accept it. You may not understand the reasons*, but you should _accept_ it.
*Pretty things bring delight to humans, therefore, seeing that beauty in the items you've personally picked and is now wearing, and in your own reflection makes you happy.

Or, speaking from my personal experience: I don't give a flying f**k to what men or anyone else will think when I dress myself. I don't paint my nails for the same reason I_ use_ make-up: I want. It's my choice. If someone likes or dislikes any of them that person can go cry me a river. Don't you do the same?


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## Ophiucha

Same, Nihal.

I've already got a 'male', and I'm not keen to attract another one. But I appreciate beauty, and damn do I look good in a pair of pumps. Plus, what men are attracted to also tends to be what is considered 'luxurious' for women? Like, as Devor said, suits are sort of the 'power' wear for men. For women? Little black dress and red lipstick. Hell, I've worked desk jobs where something 'sexy' was considered the standard uniform - skirts or dresses only, and you'd be sent back home if you didn't at least have a bit of 'natural' makeup on. It was considered _unprofessional_.

Also, I can't be the only one who's going to point out that Dr. Phil is about as reliable a source as Perez Hilton.



On the subject of worldbuilding and children, it's certainly an interesting topic to explore - it has, in the past, been an important part of life. Many societies, particularly medieval European ones, were very focused on blood and patrilineality, sometimes even resorting to having a brother or father bed a man's wife just to keep the child 'in the blood' if the husband was infertile. But on the same note, there _have_ been matrilineal societies (_not _matriarchal, mind) and prominent ones at that. Many scholars speculate that the Ancient Greeks were matrilineal, and that thrones were passed through the mother's blood. To misappropriate the Roman phrase, _Mater semper certa est_. You always know who the mother is.

Perhaps a topic of exploration in a bit of worldbuilding - a male character, perhaps a King, who has to deal with the idea that perhaps his heir isn't his, and that there's nothing he can do about it by the laws of his land. Just a thought, for those in the 'blood paternity is instinctive' camp of this thread.


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## buyjupiter

psychotick said:


> They're also represented in the stats on child abuse: I took this from Dr Phil! -
> 
> •A child with a biological mother who lives alone is 14 times more likely to suffer abuse.
> •A child with a biological father who lives alone is 20 times more likely to suffer abuse.
> •A child with biological parents who are cohabitating but not married is 20 times more likely to suffer abuse.
> •A child with a biological mother who is living with a man who is not the child’s father is 33 times more likely to suffer abuse. (Source: Dreamcatchers for Abused Children)
> Dr. Phil.com - Advice - Parenting in the Real World: Shocking Statistics



I should point out that Dr. Phil does not have a license to practice psychology in the state of California, and the sleaziness that comes with purporting to be a doctor, when he isn't really (even if he has a PhD), means that the stats do require some double checking and some backing up from alternative sources. 

I'm not arguing that this is not in fact the case, but come on. Cite credible sources please. It's not that hard to find statistics like the above from a reputable NGO or even a university study.


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## Svrtnsse

psychotick said:


> Which reminds me of another common male understanding about women. High heels and being dressed up. Speaking purely as a male (call me a caveman if you like!) When I see a woman dressed up in high heels and a revealing outfit I find it hard to imagine that the woman has worn that outfit for reasons other than to attract a male. I am told by many woman that they dress in such a way because it makes them feel good etc and has nothing to do with men. But as a man I find that very hard to accept. Perhaps because if I wanted to dress to feel good I would be wearing jeans a loose T shirt and bare feet. I value comfort far more than appearance. (Having said that I also don't understand this metro-sexual thing either! I will never shave my body hair, use perfume / aftershave, I won't put gel in my hair or wear skin tight pants, and I shave when I damned well want to with a blade and soap not some gunky product! But hey - I'm a happy caveman!)



I'll try to comment on this as well (fro a male pov). - This post contains some outrageous generalisations. I'm aware there are all kinds of exceptions to everything, but I'm trying to deal with the general case as I see it.

My impression is that in a way it's about comfort as well, but emotional instead of physical. In my home I can wear whatever I want, but if I'm leaving my apartment, even to just go down to the corner store and get some milk I try to make sure I'm at least decent. Much as I don't particularly care how people think I look, I don't want them to think I'm a slob. I don't usually put on deodorant etc, but I will at least have showered. I don't want people thinking I have hygiene issues.

Now, as a guy, people won't be looking twice at me unless I dress real sharp, and I'm fine with that. It's really only if I dress badly and/or smell that people will take notice. Specifically, other guys don't give a flying fart about my appearance as long as I don't stink up the place.
It's my impression this isn't the case for women. Everyone looks at women - including other women. Women are judged much more harshly based on their appearance and it's other women that are the most judgmental. Guys will go either "I'd tap that" or "no thanks" and that's that. 
Women on the other hand get into a lot more detail: "how can she wear that colour with that colour", "her ass looks too big in that skirt", "I wish I could afford those earrings, but I sure wouldn't wear them with that lipstick".

Women don't necessarily dress up to attract men. It may be just as much to avoid the scornful looks of other women.

Then again, as Nihal says; it feels good to look good.

Whether the pleasure from looking good outweighs that of being comfortably dressed probably varies from person to person, but I'd say that on the hole women are more prepared to suffer a bit of discomfort in order to look good than men are. 
That said, on an everyday basis I don't think comfort is that much of an issue. Putting on makeup and doing your hair and whatever is probably a chore to do, but once it's there it probably isn't that much of a pain - not like wearing six inch stilettos.

Of course, after reading all this I notice you specify "high heals and a revealing outfit". I believe many women who dress up like that - especially on a Saturday night, really are trying to look good in order for men to find them attractive. I don't think it applies to all of them though. I know married women and women in long term relationships that also dress up like that and while I could be wrong I don't think all of them are out to find themselves "some fun on the side."


Speaking of Saturday night. I work until midnight and my way home takes me through the city centre and past some of the more popular haunts there. It's interesting to note that almost all of the women I see then are dressed up in some way (high heels and short skirts), while most of the guys look pretty much the same they would at any other time of the week (jeans and t-shirt).


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## skip.knox

There are cultures where women spend much or even all of the day in the company of other women. Yet, they still dress up. There is a danger looking at one's own culture and extrapolating from that to the entirety of the human experience.

In the time period I know, men often dressed up, everything from shoes with extravagantly pointed toes to shirts with puffy sleeves. I wonder what constituted dressing up among the rural nobility. Fancy robes, I suppose. Furs were big. Fine clothes. Jewelry. Note I am speaking of men here. Some of that surely was a display of wealth and power.

OTOH, men and women commoners both dressed up mainly only for special occasions such as a feast day. There, dressing up was a reiteration of communal identity.

In monastic and clerical communities, dressing up was something regulated by the religious calendar. It was done to fulfill sacral requirements.

In short, there can be many reasons for puttin' on the Ritz, including just the desire to look super duper.


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## buyjupiter

Svrtnsse said:


> That said, on an everyday basis I don't think comfort is that much of an issue. Putting on makeup and doing your hair and whatever is probably a chore to do, but once it's there it probably isn't that much of a pain - not like wearing six inch stilettos.



Stilettos are no problem. Once you get used to wearing them, they're not an issue...but then again, I walk on the tips of my toes if I'm not thinking about it and I wear heels a lot.

Makeup? Hair? Not a pain? Thank you, Svrt, I needed the laugh. I'm not the norm when it comes to either, because I have really decent skin and I don't care enough about what other people think to rigorously apply makeup. But when I have, I'm constantly reapplying just about everything all day long (the exception being mascara, that lasts all day). And hair? Oh goodness. I keep mine pinned back severely, because it takes me two hours to straighten it. I have the waviest, thickest, Rapunzel like hair that any stylist has ever seen in their life. And I'm always mucking about with it to keep it up, as it wants to tumble down my back--which is where I don't want it.

It is a ton of work to appear "natural", which is what I go for when I do go full out femme. The amount of makeup required for that puzzles me, quite honestly, when you'd think that you'd need less makeup, not _more_.


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## skip.knox

So far the discussion has been awfully un-fantastical. We write fantasy, yes?

In my world, gnomes are a sort of servant race. When they came into the world, they did so by being very cooperative with other, stronger races. Once in Altearth, they naturally became much like serfs in medieval Earth. They are naturally obsequious, polite, self-effacing. They live near human communities for protection from the Wild and a core value is never rock the boat. This is a brief sketch; there's more to them than this, but I'm still working things out.

What is manliness to a gnome? Well-spoken, infallibly courteous, clever (to get what he wants out of more powerful creatures). Honestly, I don't know those are all manly traits. So far I have only one gnome character and he's male. I haven't explored the female aspect. Maybe these are merely gnomic traits rather than specifically male gnomic traits. 

Anyway, I offer this as an example of how we as fantasy writers can deconstruct human gender stereotypes and re-assemble them in our fantastical creations. As I said previously on this thread, it seems to me this is something we fantasy writers have as an advantage over all other literary forms. Science fiction can do much the same (one thinks immediately of Le Guin), but is more constricted by having to make due obeisance to Science. We have more freedom.


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## Ireth

Personally, I couldn't care less about makeup or fancy hairdos unless it's a special occasion, like graduation or a wedding or something. If my hair's clean and not tangly, I'm good to go. The most I do to "pretty myself up" is is file and buff my nails every once in a blue moon, when I can break the habit of just biting them off. I don't wear nail polish, either. Though that might help with the biting habit, it's never much appealed to me style-wise.


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## Jabrosky

Whatever the reason women originally started to put on makeup, high heels, and revealing clothing, I think most of them do it today out of culturally ingrained habit. Sure, it's playing into existing ideas of womanhood and femininity. That is still not quite the same as consciously trying to attract men. It's not even like every woman who puts on this stuff is conventionally attractive anyway.


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## Guy

Caged Maiden said:


> I found this posting disturbing for a bunch of reasons, and I didn't say anything because I'm not a man so maybe I don't have a right?


Of course you do, and don't ever think you don't. 

Just a few random thoughts on various aspects of the topic, from a straight white dude (YMMV):

Concerning sex drive, I was once on some medication which had loss of labido as a side effect. I found it quite liberating. The doctor said he'd had several men taking that medicine report the same thing. How strong my sex drive was to begin with is difficult to quantify and I have no idea how such a thing would be objectively measured. It kicked in at the end of age 12/beginning of 13, and I spent the following years feeling like I was trapped on a roller coaster. I don't think it's calmed down much since then, I've just learned how to cope. Maybe it's like a drug addict building up a tolerance. From the time it first kicked in, though, the urge was (and still is) strong. I'm certain there's a biological basis for this. I think millions of years of evolution and genetic programming has wired my brain to be on the constant look-out for prospective mates and, when found, to breed with them. I don't sleep around. I've slept with exactly one woman in my life, and I've been married to her for what will be 23 years this May, and we've had three children. I don't touch other women. I don't whistle, catcall, leer or strike up conversations with them - but I look. I don't openly ogle because I consider it rude. Call it the results of a somewhat Victorian upbringing. But I do look, and I enjoy the view. It's a pure autopilot function, without any conscious thought. I notice her appearance the way I notice the weather. On those very few occasions the woman caught me looking I was greatly embarrassed, but they never made an issue of it. 

Maybe it's a regional variance, but I've never encountered a woman who was offended when someone opened a door for her. The only response I've seen from them was to smile and say thank you. Women around here expect their boyfriend/husband/SO to stick up for them and defend them. He might fail at it, but he's expected to make the effort. But for all that the women in my region tend to be very self-sufficient and quite capable of taking care of themselves. They just expect men to live up to certain standards. Things like holding doors open for women or the urge to protect them are not done out of condescension. They're done out of respect and caring. I've never heard a guy say he held a door open for a woman because she's too stupid or weak to do it herself. It's done out of consideration and politeness, and the women I've dealt with truly appreciate being treated with manners. I even heard one guy say men should protect women because women have an awful lot of crap to put up with as it is, so let's relieve them of a burden or two. You might agree or not, but the sentiment was obviously based on genuine consideration, not condescension. It always baffled me how someone could be offended by someone doing them a good turn.

I'm not sure why some people are so hostile to the idea of gender roles. I can't think of a single human society that doesn't have them. They're a normal aspect of human existence. People naturally form themselves into groups, and social roles just develop naturally to regulate the behavior of the group. Without such regulation, the group falls apart. You can change those roles and regulations, but you're not going to eliminate them. Like war, famine and pestilence, expecting them to go away is unrealistic.

I once worked security in a hospital, the night shift. Offices were closed when I made my rounds through them, my footsteps echoing in the halls as I whistled the theme to "Wallace and Grommit." I noticed women's magazines lying around the various offices and waiting rooms and saw article titles along the lines of "Ten things every guy wants/likes," etc. So I read them and Invariably, seven or eight things on the list I was either indifferent to or repelled by, one or two I sort of liked, and maybe one that I really liked. I concluded that women are every bit as clueless about us as we are about them. Ladies, unless you live in a very metropolitan area like New York, don't believe a word you read in "Cosmopolitan" about guys. 

I'll close with what I've always said regarding gender and characters - hang gender and just write the damn character. Stop basing what a character would say or do based on what's between their legs and base it on that individual character. Most of my characters are women. Why? I don't know. The result of being raised by my mother? Quite possibly. Almost certainly, the more I think about it. My older sister was also a huge influence in my perceptions of women, and I only realized that just recently. She was always good at math and science and had pursued a career in it, she never compromised herself so boys would like her, she'd never had confidence issues, always been independent minded, but not in a fist on the hips/I am woman hear me roar sort of way. She just naturally did her own thing. She still did "girly" things, playing with dolls and such. In other words, she was a fully realized individual, not a demographic or a statistic, and I'm only now realizing what a huge influence she was in how my mind conceives female characters.


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## Guy

buyjupiter said:


> Stilettos are no problem. Once you get used to wearing them, they're not an issue...but then again, I walk on the tips of my toes if I'm not thinking about it and I wear heels a lot.
> 
> Makeup? Hair? Not a pain? Thank you, Svrt, I needed the laugh.


"You like pain?"
*whack*
"Try wearing a corset!"


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## skip.knox

And another thing. Men don't cry, right? That's the stereotype.

This does a disservice to crying. There are all kinds of tears, as any writer knows. There's the silent weeping at a graveside. There's the wild tears shed in the midst of a lover's quarrel. There's the tearing up of patriots at the national anthem. I cried just today, because Marvin Gaye's _What's Goin' On?_ came on and it always knocks me into a sentimental loop. But no tear fell. Just a welling up of emotion, misty eyes. There must be a hundred different ways to cry. I reckon some must be specific to women and some to men, but most are shared between them.


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## Devor

Ireth said:


> I don't wear nail polish, either. Though that might help with the biting habit, it's never much appealed to me style-wise.



I'm behind on the thread and don't know if I'll be able to comment much tonight.

But I saw this and thought I'd mention that on a more personal note, my wife uses a clear nail polish to help her with nail biting because she also hates the style.


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## Jabrosky

skip.knox said:


> So far the discussion has been awfully un-fantastical. We write fantasy, yes?
> 
> In my world, gnomes are a sort of servant race. When they came into the  world, they did so by being very cooperative with other, stronger races.  Once in Altearth, they naturally became much like serfs in medieval  Earth. They are naturally obsequious, polite, self-effacing. They live  near human communities for protection from the Wild and a core value is  never rock the boat. This is a brief sketch; there's more to them than  this, but I'm still working things out.
> 
> What is manliness to a gnome? Well-spoken, infallibly courteous, clever  (to get what he wants out of more powerful creatures). Honestly, I don't  know those are all manly traits. So far I have only one gnome character  and he's male. I haven't explored the female aspect. Maybe these are  merely gnomic traits rather than specifically male gnomic traits.
> 
> Anyway, I offer this as an example of how we as fantasy writers can  deconstruct human gender stereotypes and re-assemble them in our  fantastical creations. As I said previously on this thread, it seems to  me this is something we fantasy writers have as an advantage over all  other literary forms. Science fiction can do much the same (one thinks  immediately of Le Guin), but is more constricted by having to make due  obeisance to Science. We have more freedom.


Never mind fantasy species, why not experiment with a human society with  gendered ideals that aren't the same as modern Western culture?

Growing  up, the traditional Western stereotypes about women and mathematics in  particular always confused me. My mom was always my best resource for  tackling math homework, and she still loves the stuff. On the other hand  I've always loathed mathematics despite being a guy whose brain is  supposed to be very masculine (if you buy the hypothesis that Asperger's  means hyper-masculine thinking patterns). Furthermore, most of my math  teachers throughout K-12 have been women. I would have probably grown up  thinking women were better at math then men had I not heard  conventional wisdom to the contrary.

(And while we're at it, my mom does most of the driving whenever the family travels in one vehicle).

I've  also questioned the whole dichotomy of male reason and female  emotionality. My big sister used to tease me for being a "drama queen"  because I would get upset or angry easily. I was a hotheaded little boy. Today I don't show it so much in my offline life, but I still have gotten myself into Internet brawls. In addition my sister has always seemed more laid back and less interested in heterosexual relationships than myself, even though she is more of a sociable party animal. If anyone is the hyper-sensitive, emotionally tumultous, and depressive romantic between us, it's me.

Admittedly this kind of anecdote doesn't suffice to back up a generalized statement about Western gender differences, but it does make me entertain the notion of emotionality as a masculine rather than feminine trait (if you must assign a gender to it at all).


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## Devor

skip.knox said:


> And another thing. Men don't cry, right? That's the stereotype.



Men are taught not to cry, it's not remotely intrinsic.  But I have three kids, all boys, and when they "cry" they also get angry, and scream a lot, and hit, and make everyone miserable.  I've been told from a number of people that boys are like that when they're young and get easier as they age, while girls are much more subdued when they cry at this age.  I suspect that's a big part of why men are taught not to cry.  My oldest, who's four, has only had sad silent cries a few times, like when the fish died in his school.  I don't try to teach them not to cry, so much as I try to teach them that some things are worth crying about and some things aren't.  And, y'know, don't scream, hit and make people miserable.


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## Svrtnsse

skip.knox said:


> So far the discussion has been awfully un-fantastical. We write fantasy, yes?



The dwarves in my setting only come in one gender (but people treat them as males because they generally have big beards) and they don't have a sex drive. I've written a bit about them on my wiki, but I haven't really included any of them in my stories yet. I have some theories about what drives and motivates them, but it's going to be interesting to try and flesh one out in person.


Short version:
The dwarves are the fruits of the marshal mushroom. When a dwarf dies it returns to the mushroom it originally spawned from and in death its life's memories are absorbed by the mushroom. These memories are then shared with all other dwarfs that spawn thereafter.
My theory here is that what really motivates the dwarves is the idea that everything they do in life will be remembered by all other dwarves that come after them. I think this is something that could have quite interesting consequences for how someone behaves. It's probably somewhat out of scope for this thread though.


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## Guy

When I was raising my son I tried to teach him it's okay for a man to cry, and I let him see me do it. Many literary heroes who were examples of masculinity in their age openly wept - Achilles, Odysseus, the Arthurian knights, etc.


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## psychotick

Hi guys,

No picking on the caveman please! I said what I said about my prejudice as a man seeing a well dressed woman because it is actually there in my thoughts. I didn't say it was true as to the reason women do dress like that. Only that as a man that thought is always going to be present in my caveman brain. The question you need to ask yourself, while trying to get past the PC stuff, is do you really imagine that that thought / prejudice is only present in my brain? I think not. It may be prejudiced, non PC, perhaps even offensive to some. But that doesn't mean it's not genuine. And it doesn't mean that it's not a common prejudice among men. After all I'm not a particularly macho, randy, sexist man. I'm fairly normal on most psychological profiles. My friends are much the same. And in fact most people would regard me as polite and respectful - especially to women.

So the question becomes if you as a woman were trying to write me and you had not had the benefit of reading these posts, how good a job do you think you would be able to do of accurately portraying me? The chances are that you would only be able to portray the outward appearance I give. Andthen you would make the mistake of assuming that based on that I am a completely PC guy.

The reality is that I have many such prejudices. I don't cry for example. Twenty years ago my father died. It was a majorly traumatic experience for me and it still haunts me a little. I wept in private - to an extent. But in public absolutely never. This is ingrained in me. Again do you seriously imagine that I am alone in this? Hardly.

I hate to give control of a car to another person, man or woman. In fact I would prefer to drive for twenty four hours instead. I speak from experience here. And the reason is that deep inside my poor caveman brain I have this prejudice that I have to be in control. Again it's a very male thing and it may have nothing to do with the reality of the situation in that others may drive better than me. I can acknowledge that and force myself to give control to someone else. But I will still always be wishing that I was in control of the car. Again my experience as a man is that I am far from alone in this. Many of my male friends will feel exactly the same. And if the women don't believe me try testing your men on this. Don't ask them - we lie just as everyone else does. Just watch. Does your man grab the keys automatically? If he's in the passenger seat does he seem less relaxed than he should? Is he more comfortable with you driving the small car because it's a less manly vehicle rather than the big one?

Fifteen years ago I shattered my ankle - three broken bones, snapped tendon, blood everywhere - while out jogging. After the initial scream I mastered my pain and walked to the hospital about a mile away. I did not ask for help because again in my poor caveman brain to ask for help would be to show weakness / to be weak. And I simply can't do that. Maybe that was a little extreme in hindsight, but it's simply who I am as a man, and again I am not alone. And in that one as an epidemiologist I know that men are about half as likely to visit the doctor as women, and will generally leave an illness / injury far longer before allowing themselves to be forced in to it - which is one reason we tend to get sicker. It's not that we don't feel pain - in fact there's evidence that women are actually better at physically dealing with pain - it's that it's unmanly to ask for help. Because it's admitting to weakness.

And then there's the sixties and seventies which tore a lot of the social fabric of society apart as women became emancipated to a much larger extent by joining the workforce. Now personally I'm perfectly happy to work with women. But to an extent it must be remembered that a lot of the social ruction caused by this - and which still exists - is because as women became more emancipated men felt and to an extent became more emasculated.

Look if a woman wants to write a man she has to be able to get into a man's headspace, and while men are just as diverse as women, no man's head is still going to be a natural place for a woman to be. That's why people write a lot of stereotypes. The PC man who in my view largely doesn't exist. We just pretend and try to take the PC stuff on board with varying degrees of success because we don't want to look like bastards. The dashing hero who never gets hurt. Well no we actually get hurt we just never admit to it - least of all in front of a woman. And the reverse is true. As a man when I write a woman, am I writing a real woman or my view of a woman based on my own biases and the facades women present - because men aren't alone in pretending to be other than they are.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Feo Takahari

@Psychotick: the stuff you've said in this thread matches my 66-year-old father very well, but little of it would be relatable to any of the 20-somethings I go to school with. I think having mothers who were feminists made most of it irrelevant. (Or maybe it's a California thing--I don't mean to stereotype, but there might be more people like that out in Texas. Or in New Zealand, I guess.)


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## Philip Overby

One thing about forums I really like is that we get to meet people with a wide base of opinions from all over the world. I'm from Mississippi originally and I guess people might generalize me as being a certain way because of where I'm from. However, not everyone from a certain place thinks or acts the same. Living in a university city for a long time exposed me to certain kinds of opinions and people I may not have been exposed to otherwise. Then living in Japan has changed my perspective even more. Each experience is going to either strengthen or alter your perspective as a person regardless of your background. I learned that not every man or every woman acts the same or tries to live up to societal expectations. So when I write, I try not to think "how will I write this man" or "how will I write this woman." I think "how will I write this character?" There are men and women of all different backgrounds, values, interests, appearances, philosophies, etc. I'm more interested in exploring these aspects myself than "men do things this way and women do things that way."


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## Penpilot

psychotick said:


> The PC man who in my view largely doesn't exist. We just pretend and try to take the PC stuff on board with varying degrees of success because we don't want to look like bastards. The dashing hero who never gets hurt. Well no we actually get hurt we just never admit to it - least of all in front of a woman. And the reverse is true. As a man when I write a woman, am I writing a real woman or my view of a woman based on my own biases and the facades women present - because men aren't alone in pretending to be other than they are.



You know why your friends are probably the way you are? It's because like people tend to gravitate towards each other. A boss is more likely to hire someone like them. That's what studies have shown. So just because a group of you are the way you are does not make it a true for everyone or even most.

I don't consider myself unique, so let me jump on the sharing wagon. I'm athletic. Have been all my life. I wouldn't call myself a jock, but pretty close. I play hockey, softball, and I use to be on the track team. During sports, I been punched and I've punched someone else. I have a toolbox, with tools I used this weekend to do work around the house.

I'm a geek/nerd. I've seen every episode of the original Star Trek, and I was in the high school chess club.

I consider myself a very average man from where I live. I've never been afraid to cry or show my pain. I cried when watching the 1954 version of Godzilla because there was a shot of a dying mother and her child. I like RomComs just as much as Action movies.

As for my dealings with women, I play hockey with and against them on a co-ed team. And let me tell you a lot of them can skate me into the ground. Not once have I ever felt less of a man because a woman was better than me at something. I've been taken down hard by a woman, and never have I felt like I lost any man points because I had to stay on the ice for a moment to regain my wind. And before you go thinking these are all butch lesbians, the truth of it couldn't be further. It's a melting pot. Full of girly girls and butch girls and everything in between. For a while one of the girls on my team was a model.

As for giving up control, if a woman, or anyone for that matter, drove me around, that would be awesome. I've driven across North America, and I've found that being a passenger can be a pretty darn good thing.

I got sick just recently. It was a bit serious, but I delayed going to the doctor. It wasn't because it wasn't manly to go or I didn't like showing weakness. It was because I was too lazy and stupid to go. I thought it might just go away. And I didn't keep it a secret. My friends knew I was sick, including the female ones.

As I've said, I'm a pretty average guy. I ogle women, just like women have told me they ogle men. But I don't make any judgements on why they're dressed the way they're dressed, because honestly, the big brain ain't exactly working right then. I get my look, hopefully not being creepy, and move on with my day. Why she wears something isn't really my business. It's not like I can just walk over and say, "Hey baby, how about it," and we're off to the races. I actually find women in jeans and runners more attractive than heels and dresses. I don't know why. It just is.

Just because your understanding only goes to a certain point, doesn't mean everyone else's understanding only goes to that point too. And just because you have a group of male friends that are like you doesn't mean you are collectively representative of all males.

I've written from a female perspective and the only complaint I ever got from the females in my writing group was to inform me about the difference between pumps and heels. But I'm just an amateur. Look at all the professionally published books. Women have written men and vice versa and nobody could tell the sex of the author. Look at JK Rowling when she wrote a detective story under her pseudonym Robert Galbraith. It's a critically acclaimed book with a male lead who was a veteran of the Afghan war. 

Also look at television and movies. Can you tell look at any random show and tell me with great certainty if a it was written by a woman or man? 

And finally, these things are from someone approaching or at middle age. I was very much alive when disco ruled, and pong was the greatest thing since The Brady Bunch. So these things aren't unique to the younger generation.


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## Svrtnsse

Philip Overby said:


> One thing about forums I really like is that we get to meet people with a wide base of opinions from all over the world. I'm from Mississippi originally and I guess people might generalize me as being a certain way because of where I'm from. However, not everyone from a certain place thinks or acts the same. Living in a university city for a long time exposed me to certain kinds of opinions and people I may not have been exposed to otherwise. Then living in Japan has changed my perspective even more. Each experience is going either strengthen or alter your perspective as a person regardless of your background. I learned that not every man or every woman acts the same or tries to live up to societal expectations. So when I write, I try not to think "how will I write this man" or "how will I write this woman." I think "how will I write this character?" There are men and women of all different backgrounds, values, interests, appearances, philosophies, etc. I'm more interested in exploring these aspects myself than "men do things this way and women do things that way."



This makes sense and all, but I still think the discussion about manliness and womenliness is an interesting one from a world building perspective. Like Greg says; even if his views aren't entirely PC, they're still not uncommon. 
The differences (and similarities) between men and women may not necessarily affect how a character behaves or reacts, but it may affect how the world around the character interacts with them.

EDIT ("confession time"):
I don't cry - ever, not even alone. It just doesn't happen.
I almost always try to manage on my own first. I hesitate to ask for help, but will do it before more futile attempts start to become silly.
I absolutely and utterly hate being wrong. It's the worst thing ever.
I don't particularly care about sex or about getting laid. If the opportunity presents itself I'll take it, but it's not something I'm in any way pursuing.


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## Philip Overby

> This makes sense and all, but I still think the discussion about manliness and womenliness is an interesting one from a world building perspective. Like Greg says; even if his views aren't entirely PC, they're still not uncommon.
> The differences (and similarities) between men and women may not necessarily affect how a character behaves or reacts, but it may affect how the world around the character interacts with them.



That is actually an excellent point and something I'm sure I do in my own writing. I do have characters that treat each other differently because of their gender, race, etc. so I can't say that it's not relevant for my writing because it is. I guess when I'm sitting down to create characters I don't try to make them one way because that's how all men act or one way because that's how all women act. But when the story is actually happening, these kind of things come out one way or another even if I'm not consciously trying to make them come out. 

For example, I have one female character who is destructive and out of control in most situations. She basically doesn't give a sh*t. However, the fact that she's female never comes into play for her. However, I have another female character who is treated like a fragile doll and she doesn't like it very much, so I would say her being a female is a large part of the way other characters treat her. On the other hand, I have a male character who snivels and cowers at every chance of conflict and is a world-class liar. The fact that he's male never comes into play. Like he's not seen as being a weak man, just a weak person. 

Not sure if any of this makes sense. I guess I mean to say, yes, gender definitely comes into play in my stories, but I don't think it does so consciously. It just kind of happens. 

So I'm glad people are getting a lot out of this discussion. I think I just got something out of it I didn't quite expect.


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## Devor

I've spent years living where I think many Americans would consider the "manliest" place in the US . . . . Camp Lejeune Marine Corps base.  I've seen signs that say "Tank Crossing" and heard bombs exploding in the distance.  And I've known marines, worked alongside retired veterans, gone to High School with their teenage boys.

None of them would agree, remotely, with the idea that sex or violence is the foundation of the male identity.

My dad is a carpenter who works on the base, and one day we had a bunch of wood strapped to the top of the truck.  We stopped at a light at the busiest intersection in town, and all of that wood slid from the top into the street, right into the intersection.  It was a horrifying moment, and we were lucky nobody was hurt.  But six guys from different vehicles, probably marines, were out of their cars and had all of that wood back on our truck in literally about forty seconds.

I don't know if that story sounds like much, but I was young and it made a big impression on me, in terms of "manliness."   Nobody complained, or shouted, or honked their horns.  They just fixed it.  It was a dangerous situation, a situation worth getting pissed about, or stressed about, and these guys didn't flinch in solving it.  They didn't get emotional, not because they don't have emotions, but because they were so in control of the situation that it simply wasn't worth feeling any of that crap for.  That's what I grew up seeing as a "man."


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## Noma Galway

I think, as we hit the "men don't cry" aspect of it, I will have to weigh in, as a younger woman. I don't cry. Maybe I'll cry for a couple minutes in private, but no one ever knows about it. I think it's a weakness to be seen crying. It shows a vulnerability, and I do not want people knowing I'm vulnerable. If I do break down in public, I feel intense shame afterward. In my stories, I show my characters' vulnerability in the same way. It's private, unless the character is a character who would show that. 

As for the thread in general, I typically write from the point of view of young women. It's the viewpoint I know. In one of them, which is my most emotional short story that I've written, Trysala, Crown Princess of Lanimir, is about to be crowned queen when her sister comes down with smallpox, which is what her mother had when she died. The doctor that failed to cure her mother is there with her sister, and Trysala threatens him violently, then kneels beside her sister's bed and cries. For the next two weeks, she watches her sister grow weaker and finally die. The next day, at her coronation, she has the doctor beheaded, and the head tarred to preserve it. She keeps the head in her sister's empty bedroom and shows it to every doctor who comes to help anyone in the castle. The whole time I was writing this, I wasn't thinking, oh, Trysala's a girl. Therefore she must react in this way. I wasn't thinking, oh, the doctor's a man. Therefore he must react in this way. I write the character as the character has to be written.


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## Ophiucha

I'm a stereotype in that regard. I've cried while watching vaguely touching _commercials_, goodness knows I'll cry during a movie or tv show. (Of course, I also have an anxiety disorder that sort of puts me on the edge of tears all the time anyway...)

Thinking about it, I can't say crying is too common in my stories. I don't tend to have that classic scene of the mentor or parents/uncle dying that features in many stories, so perhaps my characters don't often have the chance. I do have my heroes cry a lot when they get incredibly angry, though. The climax of a novel I wrote for NaNo last year involved my protagonist recounting her life story to the antagonist, during which it became fairly clear that she had poisoned him moments ago, and when she starts screaming at him all of his injustices against her, she does start crying a bit.

Main character from a novella, a male one, also gets some tears in his eyes during moments of extreme anger or pain. But nobody really breaks down and cries in my novels. Wonder what that says about my stories...


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## Guy

Devor said:


> Nobody complained, or shouted, or honked their horns.  They just fixed it.  It was a dangerous situation, a situation worth getting pissed about, or stressed about, and these guys didn't flinch in solving it.  They didn't get emotional, not because they don't have emotions, but because they were so in control of the situation that it simply wasn't worth feeling any of that crap for.  That's what I grew up seeing as a "man."


Ditto. Two thumbs up!


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## A. E. Lowan

Going back to the discussion about clothing, I ran across this on the Book of Faces today and thought it was very interesting...








[/URL][/IMG]

I think it says a lot, not only at the face value about what may be visually stimulating to the opposite gender, but what men and women find attractive, mood-altering, and even possibly empowering about their own attire.


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## skip.knox

Cause every girl's crazy 'bout a sharp dressed man.
- a little bit of Texas wisdom.


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## psychotick

Hi,

How does that relate to that other bit of Texas wisdom - "She's got legs and she knows how to use them?"

Cheers, Greg.


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## Svrtnsse

I came across this list of tips for men. The title is a bit cheesy, but some of the advice listed aren't that bad. It could probably be useful for when creating a character. Pick some of the advice listed and play them up in order to give a certain impression.

45 Ultimate Tips For Men. - 9GAG

(and yes, I know most of these would apply to women as well - most)


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## Scribble

Some thoughts on gender and society and characterization...

Our culture is in a surge of redefinition of what it means to be a man, and what it means to be a woman. There are young people today who have grown up with publicly nurturing fathers who stayed home with them and mothers who raised them on their own with no overt stigma. This sort of thing never happened in my father's day (he's 65 now). I was eligible in Canada for 7 months parental leave. I stayed home with my youngest daughter and cared for her, feeding her, the whole bit. I do have friends to who this is alien and counter-role. Somehow, I think I am saving them from being gender type-cast. I want to put these ideas in my fiction, albeit self-consciously.

As humans, we have a great discomfort when things are ambiguous. We feel comfortable when we can say this thing is an orange, and that thing is an apple. We get uncomfortable with apple-orangey-ness. Gender isn't a static thing that is done once and let alone, rather we constantly DO GENDER at all times. Every time you go to the washroom and you choose a door, you reinforce gender, every time we say men do this, women do that, we are DOING GENDER. We can't help it.

When I take my girls with me to do the groceries or errands or what-have-you, I get a mixed set of responses from women. Some seem to think what I am doing, orchestrating a bunch of kids at the checkout, fending off requests for candies, negotiating the day's activities, settling arguments, all while packing my bags, calmly and cooly, is some kind of man-miracle. I've also had the woman who comes over when one of my kids is acting up and I am putting them in timeout, feels the need to coach me as if I don't know what the heck I am doing, because I have a set of male parts.

When you turn your back on what the world says is what men do, and what women do, and just do - you can become weird to the world, they don't understand, they get uncomfortable. When I am managing my kids at the store better than a woman next to me, it can possibly undermine for some people what it is that "women" are good at, and what it is that "men" are good at.

Just in the same way, men can feel that they cannot do these woman things, that at least they have these man things that are their own domain. For if one can do what the other can, does it erode your own sense of dignity and strength? It can feel that way. 

So, when writing about what is manliness, what is womanliness, there is this sensitivity about "domain" that tells so much about the character and the culture. We always deal with roles. I try to think about how my characters are DOING GENDER in their world. There are always massive social forces at work, mostly invisible to people, which make them wear specific things, want specific things, act in specific ways, and most importantly NOT act in specific ways. There are things that if you do will un-woman you, or un-man you. Our modern western world is redefining this, but most of us don't live in Greenwich Village, NY, we live in places where traditional gender roles are very strongly enforced by social convention, places where Men like trucks and football and Women like scrapbooking and yoga, and any flipping of that around is considered - weird.

I despise the princessifying forces at work on my girls. So, I let them hammer nails into wood and play with bugs and salamanders. We learn science and chess and how to fix a flat tire, because Disney and Mattel and other companies are trying to turn them into pink-wearing dental assistants instead of lawyers and warriors and leaders. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. I let them be happy wearing their princess dresses and tea parties, because I know later they'll be riding bikes, climbing trees, and full of mud with bugs in their hands trying to bring indoors as a pet. Not that there is anything wrong with wearing pink or being a dental assistant, but I don't want any artificial boundaries to exist for them.

In fiction it seems hard to go counter to culture without making your book _about_ that. I'd like to see more bucking of _traditional_ gender roles in fiction, not because it is trendy to do so, but because people grew up not believing in most of these "rules" about gender that were in fact, not real but completely artificially created by culture. If I am conscious of it now, maybe future writers won't be, and maybe some are today, I'd like to see it.


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## hots_towel

A. E. Lowan said:


> Going back to the discussion about clothing, I ran across this on the Book of Faces today and thought it was very interesting...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> I think it says a lot, not only at the face value about what may be visually stimulating to the opposite gender, but what men and women find attractive, mood-altering, and even possibly empowering about their own attire.


ugh this is just me, but i never grew out of hating to dress up. as a kid I would look at myself in the mirror after having my hair done and wearing a suit and think something to the effect of "wow, I look like a tool." to this day i think that same thing whenever I have to wear something outside of my normal t shirt and jeans.


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## Scribble

hots_towel said:


> ugh this is just me, but i never grew out of hating to dress up. as a kid I would look at myself in the mirror after having my hair done and wearing a suit and think something to the effect of "wow, I look like a tool." to this day i think that same thing whenever I have to wear something outside of my normal t shirt and jeans.



Try this little experiment. Go downtown, to the mall, or wherever wearing a suit, a well-fitting suit, and see how differently people react to you. In my last job, a kind of IBM culture for seven years, I had to dress up. In my current job, for the past 3 years, I go to work in jeans and tshirt. When I do rarely wear a suit, I notice the great difference with which people attend to me, the deference. When I wear t-shirt and jeans, women on the street will very rarely smile at me. When I wear a suit, I will get a different response.

In a suit, I "look" like someone who is 99% not going to cause mayhem. I am dressed for work. I look serious, responsible, and important. People like that are in their positions because there is a great weight of trust upon them. In jeans and a t-shirt, going by appearances there is no indication that I _won't_ cause mayhem. 

The suit is a status signal. People respond to status signals. We can't help it, it is how we are made. Think of how people react to police uniforms, military uniforms, doctors in white coats, etc... the business suit does the same job.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong, I'm just saying that's how things appear to work. When I was young, I felt the same way about dressing in a suit. When I went to work in the summer for my father's accounting firm as an auditing clerk when I was 17, I had to wear a suit to the customer location. The way people treated me was very different than what I had experienced. I felt like a phony until I became comfortable with it. The thing is, I had a reason for wearing it, so I wasn't a phony. I was there to do serious business, so I wore the attire of serious business. 

I was the same person, but a few yards of cloth cut in particular ways changed their perception of me. If they saw me with ripped jeans and a Sex Pistols t-shirt and my hair standing up in spikes, they might not have let me in the door. Rather, they were holding them for me.


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## Jabrosky

Scribble said:


> I despise the princessifying forces at work on my girls. So, I let them hammer nails into wood and play with bugs and salamanders. We learn science and chess and how to fix a flat tire, because Disney and Mattel and other companies are trying to turn them into pink-wearing dental assistants instead of lawyers and warriors and leaders. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. I let them be happy wearing their princess dresses and tea parties, because I know later they'll be riding bikes, climbing trees, and full of mud with bugs in their hands trying to bring indoors as a pet. Not that there is anything wrong with wearing pink or being a dental assistant, but I don't want any artificial boundaries to exist for them.


I always thought princesses were overrated. If little girls must seek role models in royalty, I would prefer they look to ruling queens. At least those women could exercise real power.

Of course there is the argument that traditional monarchy isn't a system we should idealize regardless of the monarchs' sex or gender, but that's probably off-topic.


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## Legendary Sidekick

I still remember a time when I was in my late teens. I was wearing a suit, and my brother and I were playing the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles arcade game at the local pizza place. The quarter slot for Donatello didn't work, which sucked because I liked hitting robots with a big stick. The pizza guy asked no questions when I said the machine took my quarter. He apologized for the inconvenience and gave me a quarter right away.

That was the second-best service anyone in my family ever got at a pizza place. The best was when my uncle's boss let him use his limo for the day, and we ordered pizza from that. The response was: "Yes sir! Right away sir!" *drops pizza* "Aw, $#!%!!"

In both cases, we were acting perfectly normal as we would without the limo or the suit. So yeah... status symbols.



Oh, and being a dad with three girls: I just have fun taking them out in public! I love the compliments about how cute my kids are. There's that gender thing where women are much more likely to tell me my daughters are cute, but I'm not thinking about inequality when I get compliments...



Spoiler: boastful confession



...except how unfair it is that other people's kids aren't as cute. Haw! (jerk laugh)


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## Scribble

Suits convey authority, heck, we even colloquially refer to the people who wear them as "suits". 

We are trained from a young age to defer to authority figures. Unconsciously, we _know_ that this person represents authority, and whether we follow or rebel, it is simply there in the air because of the style of dress. Strange but true. 

Milgram Experiment: Milgram Experiment | Simply Psychology


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## Legendary Sidekick

buyjupiter said:


> I would personally love to see examples of how to write menfolk who aren't the epitome of GI Joe. I'd love to see examples of men talking to other men in world about what it means to be a man. As a woman, I don't get to be around when men have their man-to-man chats about how societal definitions of manhood suck and they really just want to be dancers or whatever it is that society doesn't accept men doing. (I've had the same kind of conversation with my girl pals about how societal definitions of femininity really suck and I presume men have the same kinds of conversations--correct me if I'm wrong.)


I'm not trying to be funny... I think you actually are "wrong," or at least these conversations occur considerably less to the extent that I've managed to avoid them for 41 years.

If anything, I brag about the benefit of having daughters. I can play with girly Legos which are better looking than the gender-neutral ones, I can watch movies about fairies and princesses, and the stories I tell my girls are fun... they tell me what they're into and we have our adventure for the evening. Some of the characters are princessy, some super strong, and few are male. When my daughter requested a male fairy character, I began playing my role as King of the Fairies. He needs to make his voice extra deep to sound manly, which is hard for a male fairy to do, especially on Pink Day. The king claimed he dyed his beard pink using blood from his nose, which he deemed manly.

So let me semi-retract my statement. These conversations do exist, but my brother and friends and I tend to approach the topic with humor. There is no outrage or any real concern. Maybe guys who want to be dancers and such might have a deeper, more serious conversation like the one you're talking about.




Going back to my daughters. I let them have their mermaids, fairies, princesses and mermaid-fairy princesses that ride unicorns. In fact, this weekend, my girls actually rode a pony with her mane dyed pink. It's their favorite color. I don't feel they were pushed to this. It's out there and they're attracted to it. As a boy, I was not.

Simply put, my daughters are encouraged to chase their dreams and be honest about what they like. I don't worry about the dreams and things they like being too girly or boyish.


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## Scribble

Legendary Sidekick said:


> These conversations do exist



They do indeed exist between men. The men I can have these conversations with are few and far between. I'm an oddity, in that I buck the trends, but I also live in a very cosmopolitan city and work with very progressive people. They don't have rubber balls dangling off the back of their Ford F150.


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## Svrtnsse

Scribble said:


> They do indeed exist between men. The men I can have these conversations with are few and far between.



Indeed, but even then they don't happen often.


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## Penpilot

Svrtnsse said:


> Indeed, but even then they don't happen often.



Do women sit around and talk about what it means to be a woman? I think these types of conversations are rare or perceived to be rare because the subject isn't always approached in such a direct manner. I think the conversations take a more personal note, what it means to be me, things involving me. People will throw things out like "I'm thinking about taking a cooking/ dance/ knitting class. What do you guys think?" And the conversation will focus in on why and the perceptions around it not how it relates to the general definition of what it means to be a man.


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## Svrtnsse

Penpilot said:


> Do women sit around and talk about what it means to be a woman? I think these types of conversations are rare or perceived to be rare because the subject isn't always approached in such a direct manner. I think the conversations take a more personal note, what it means to be me, things involving me. People will throw things out like "I'm thinking about taking a cooking/ dance/ knitting class. What do you guys think?" And the conversation will focus in on why and the perceptions around it not how it relates to the general definition of what it means to be a man.



You do have a point of course.When the topic is touched upon it's often under the guise of something else, but even then it's fairly rare.

I believe, and I might be wrong, that this type of discussion is more common among women. As a straight, white, male the world is pretty much tailored to me and the vast majority of the "inconveniences" I suffer in my life are not a direct consequence of my sexual preferences, my skin colour or my gender. Being SWM doesn't give me that much to complain about. This isn't the case for a whole lot of people.


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## Legendary Sidekick

I'm relatively sure that these conversations are more common among women, though the closest I get is from those occasions when my wife explains women/girls to me. I'm still not an expert on the subject. But after assisting all three of my daughters' births, I learned this: whenever a woman plays her childbirth trump card ("You think _that's_ suffering? Try giving birth."), she's right.


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## Scribble

Legendary Sidekick said:


> I'm relatively sure that these conversations are more common among women, though the closest I get is from those occasions when my wife explains women/girls to me. I'm still not an expert on the subject. But after assisting all three of my daughters' births, I learned this: whenever a woman plays her childbirth trump card ("You think _that's_ suffering? Try giving birth."), she's right.



I am part of a "philosophy" dinners group where we go out to a restaurant and we discuss moral and societal issues, and that obviously involves gender issues. There are equally represented men and women. 

I am also part of a smaller circle, of which I am the only male, where we discuss spiritual, moral, and life issues in more depth. We end up talking about roles, society's pressures, people's perceptions. We are well represented, a black German woman, an Iranian Lesbian, an older straight white woman, and myself. We are rare birds in that we focus our discussions on these issues and gain perspectives from everyone. The truth is that we form these groups because most people don't want to get that deep.

So rare, yes, I suppose.


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## Mythopoet

I mostly talk to my husband about what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman. As parents of both boys and girls we both have a stake in those questions. Also (sigh) I don't know anyone else smart enough to hold such conversations.


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## Scribble

Mythopoet said:


> I mostly talk to my husband about what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman. As parents of both boys and girls we both have a stake in those questions. Also (sigh) I don't know anyone else smart enough to hold such conversations.



This is why I joined these groups. I'm just that way, and most people get confused or even angry when you talk about specific situations in generalities... most people seem unable or unwilling to rise above what they are doing and look down on them, and all the other people as being influenced by social forces... everyone wants to believe they are autonomous and not affected. 

So, I found a way to seek out like minded people, and not feel so alone


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## Mythopoet

Your philosophy dinners sound interesting, but unfortunately I am more interested in metaphysics than societal issues. And I've never really found a good way to meet like minded people.


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## Ophiucha

I talk about womanhood a lot with my friends, but usually it's in a specific and dismal sort of way where we're venting to each other about something in our lives. Bosses who are being a jack*** about maternity leave, men catcalling us (we live in a city, so even the least attractive of us have this happen once or twice a week), that sort of thing. It generally leads us to talking about being women in the workplace or in public, how we present our femininity, etc.. It's not like we sit down and say 'so what does it mean to be a woman?', but I think as women, it is a significant enough part of our lives that our conversations veer to it.

I do have the conversation 'what does it mean to be a woman?' _too_, of course, but only at meetings for LGBT and feminist groups I'm a part of. _Definitely_ not with the same girls I talk _Game of Thrones_ and shoe sales with, though.


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## Scribble

Mythopoet said:


> Your philosophy dinners sound interesting, but unfortunately I am more interested in metaphysics than societal issues. And I've never really found a good way to meet like minded people.



Meetup.com is how I do it. I also belong to a group called "intellectual cafÃ©" that discusses topics like "mind & cosmos", consciousness, the nature of reality, etc... but hasn't met for a long time.

Without this I am trapped in the intellectual wasteland, where people only talk about Big Brother and what the neighbors are doing. 

Also, you could try taking college philosophy courses to get your metaphysical brainfood.


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## Logos&Eidos

In my  (not so)humble opinion a major component of masculinity is self-sacrifice. A lot of the social pressure place upon men is to make them into voluntarily expendable agents for the good of society. Ladies if you wish to understand how to write men or just get a better understanding of us, than you must get that.  Some details of male behavioral norms differ between societies and time periods. But the commonalities are rooted in male expandability.

First off why are men expendable? Logistics. A woman requires nine months to carry a child to term. In nine months a man could impregnate in theory hundreds or more women. Thus a community can afforded to loses more men in a short period of time than it can women. The logistics of maintaining a stable population is why so many cultures place restrictions upon what women were allowed to do. because if women were running off  and engaging in life threatening  adventures and were killed on said adventurers at the same rate as men. No preindustrial community could sustain itself; oppressive socio-religious rules come about later to stomp down on the natural curiosity and rebelliousness of humans.

Combine this with the greater average sizes and strength of a man. It should not be surprising why all the risky dangerous work of society was given to men as their "domain" with the exception of childbirth; and if their was seashores mode enabled button somewhere, men would have to give birth as well.


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