# Reconsidering my Protagonist's Race



## Amanita (Jun 15, 2015)

There are plenty of general threads about diversity etc. but I don’t want to hijack them with a specific question about my character.
I’ve been writing and re-writing the same story for a few years now and I’m still not finished. The main character has always remained the same, a girl in her late teens with brown skin. I’ve pictured her that way without thinking about it too much at first. As a child, I’ve read plenty of books with different POC protagonists and (unlike gender) it never made a difference to me. (Well, I’ve learned now that this is called “colour-blindness” and a bad thing but it’s what I grew up to believe was the right thing, this entire discussion is still rather confusing, I have to admit.)

Since I’ve joined the English-language writing forum-world, I’ve come across all those race discussions, follow the blog “Writing with Color” and all of these gave me second thoughts.
The character’s culture is slightly Indian based: gender roles and family traditions as well as dietary traditions are similar and she wears salwar sameez-like clothing. So far, my story generally doesn’t feature and religion but magic and other fantastical elements. By now, I think this would probably be considered offensive and cultural appropriation. 
There are quite a few plot points which would probably be considered offensive as well, if I asked “Writing with Color” about them. The character is optimistic and self-confident and relatively good at coping with difficult situations, she has a white teacher, makes white friends and wishes to protect her fellow students who include white people. 
The story won’t work if I change the things in the last paragraph and the cultural appropriation issue also remains which makes me wonder if it wouldn’t be better to make the character white and her culture European-based.
I’m writing in German, so my audience will be mainly white and if people normally are truly more likely to empathize with a protagonist of their own race, it might be better for this reason as well. It would also make more geographical sense cause at the moment, I have a tropical land next to moderate climate and no magic that affects weather. 

When I started this project, I used to be very interested in Indian culture, food and clothing and wished to travel there if I got the chance but I’ve realised now that this kind of interest is not appropriate and I’ve given up on those travel plans as well.
Normally, I’m totally in the “write what you know”-camp where possible which would be another argument in favour of a European setting with familiar plants and seasons.
At the same time, I simply picture the character this way and it’s very hard for me to imagine a white girl instead but it would probably work with time.

Any thoughts?


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## Miskatonic (Jun 15, 2015)

This isn't directed at you so don't take it personally. One thing I've observed on this site is the pervading mindset that creating characters who are white is this massive faux pas and that now people have to question whether or not it is good to have white characters in their stories. I find this absolutely absurd. Write whatever you want, to whatever audience you want and don't worry about whether or not you are doing something wrong by having white characters or writing to a primarily white audience. It's just fashionable PC BS.


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## Tom (Jun 15, 2015)

Basing a character's culture on a real-world one or being interested in a real-world culture isn't appropriation, so I wouldn't worry if I were you. It only becomes appropriation when you use elements of a culture for superficial reasons like "Because it looks/sounds cool" and completely disregard the history and tradition behind them. 

You don't seem to be doing any of those things, so you're definitely on the right track! I think it's very cool that you have a POC main character and are conscientious about the issues with writing POC characters. That's a lot more than can be said for some people. Just keep up your writing, and make sure you keep researching how to make your POC character's story better. If you have the chance, talk to some people who belong to the culture you based hers on. Ask them how you can make this character true to her culture and values. If they have concerns about certain aspects of the story, be sure to respect their opinions and fix the problematic elements. 

Good luck!


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## Gryphos (Jun 15, 2015)

Amanita said:
			
		

> As a child, I’ve read plenty of books with different POC protagonists and (unlike gender) it never made a difference to me. (Well, I’ve learned now that this is called “colour-blindness” and a bad thing but it’s what I grew up to believe was the right thing, this entire discussion is still rather confusing, I have to admit.)



The term colour-blindness as I'm aware only applies to real-life situations. Like when people say 'I don't see race'. It's seen by some to be dismissive of culture and subtly racist in its implications ("I need to pretend you're not black to accept you as a person" etc.). The term, as far as I'm aware, has nothing to do with characters and their behaviours. There's no such thing as 'raced' behaviour.



> Since I’ve joined the English-language writing forum-world, I’ve come across all those race discussions, follow the blog “Writing with Color” and all of these gave me second thoughts.
> The character’s culture is slightly Indian based: gender roles and family traditions as well as dietary traditions are similar and she wears salwar sameez-like clothing. So far, my story generally doesn’t feature and religion but magic and other fantastical elements. By now, I think this would probably be considered offensive and cultural appropriation.



I personally was never convinced by arguments of cultural appropriation, but that's unimportant. From my experience I don't think people would have a problem with this type of setting, so long as the subject of your story isn't racist or stereotyping.



> There are quite a few plot points which would probably be considered offensive as well, if I asked “Writing with Color” about them. The character is optimistic and self-confident and relatively good at coping with difficult situations, she has a white teacher, makes white friends and wishes to protect her fellow students who include white people.



Some people might read into this and see some questionable things, and they may well have a point. If you do wish to avoid this, a simple solution would be to make sure the MC is also surrounded by a vibrant and diverse cast, and not just white people.



> The story won’t work if I change the things in the last paragraph and the cultural appropriation issue also remains which makes me wonder if it wouldn’t be better to make the character white and her culture European-based.
> I’m writing in German, so my audience will be mainly white and if people normally are truly more likely to empathize with a protagonist of their own race, it might be better for this reason as well. It would also make more geographical sense cause at the moment, I have a tropical land next to moderate climate and no magic that affects weather.



To me all this would accomplish is making your story less interesting and unique. I haven't honestly seen very many India-inspired settings, and I would push you to continue down that route. As for white people only being able to identify with white people, no. Yes, there probably are some racists out there who would have a problem with it, but f*ck them.

As for the whole climate thing, that's small beans issue-wise. I'm sure you could solve that somehow.



> When I started this project, I used to be very interested in Indian culture, food and clothing and wished to travel there if I got the chance but I’ve realised now that this kind of interest is not appropriate and I’ve given up on those travel plans as well.



Inappropriate for you to have an interest in India future and want to travel there? I don't follow. Follow your dreams, man!


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## Russ (Jun 15, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> This isn't directed at you so don't take it personally. One thing I've observed on this site is the pervading mindset that creating characters who are white is this massive faux pas and that now people have to question whether or not it is good to have white characters in their stories. I find this absolutely absurd. Write whatever you want, to whatever audience you want and don't worry about whether or not you are doing something wrong by having white characters or writing to a primarily white audience. It's just fashionable PC BS.



Just out of curiousity can you point me to a post on this site where anyone has said:

a) creating white characters is a massive faux pas; or

b) people should question whether or not it is a good idea to have white characters in their story?


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## Steerpike (Jun 15, 2015)

I question the very idea of cultural appropriation as it relates to literature. The entirety of human culture and experience should be open to you for whatever use you want in your stories.


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## Russ (Jun 15, 2015)

Amanita said:


> There are plenty of general threads about diversity etc. but I don’t want to hijack them with a specific question about my character.
> I’ve been writing and re-writing the same story for a few years now and I’m still not finished. The main character has always remained the same, a girl in her late teens with brown skin. I’ve pictured her that way without thinking about it too much at first. As a child, I’ve read plenty of books with different POC protagonists and (unlike gender) it never made a difference to me. (Well, I’ve learned now that this is called “colour-blindness” and a bad thing but it’s what I grew up to believe was the right thing, this entire discussion is still rather confusing, I have to admit.)
> 
> Since I’ve joined the English-language writing forum-world, I’ve come across all those race discussions, follow the blog “Writing with Color” and all of these gave me second thoughts.
> ...



I guess the big question is does her skin colour play or culture play an role in the story, or are they just window dressing?

If they play a role then stick with them.  If they don't then do what you like.

My experience with German speaking people is that they are very interested in people of colour and quite interested in different cultures.  IIRC they just put a prayer room or Mosque in Allianz stadium for Bayern Munich.


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## Mindfire (Jun 15, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> One thing I've observed on this site is the pervading mindset that creating characters who are white is this massive faux pas and that now people have to question whether or not it is good to have white characters in their stories.


Except, literally no one is saying this. Where did you even get this idea? It's such a bizarre claim. Encouraging people to think outside the box in regard to character ethnicity is not the same as declaring the creation of white characters a "massive faux pas". Whence cometh all these straw men?


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## Amanita (Jun 15, 2015)

Thank you for taking the time to answer.



			
				Tom Nimenai said:
			
		

> If you have the chance, talk to some people who belong to the culture you based hers on. Ask them how you can make this character true to her culture and values.


Unfortunately, talking to people in real life is difficult because there are very few Indian people living here in my region of Germany and none I’m close enough with for this kind of thing. At my university classes, the only people who belong to a different race (I’ve seen this terminology often enough now but can’t really get comfortable with it because using the term “race” for humans is or at least used to be during my school days considered inappropriate here.) are Chinese. Online critics would probably be the only chance of this.



			
				Gryphos said:
			
		

> Some people might read into this and see some questionable things, and they may well have a point. If you do wish to avoid this, a simple solution would be to make sure the MC is also surrounded by a vibrant and diverse cast, and not just white people.


She greatly cares about her family and friends as well as her home town and her main reason to leave for the mainly white country is keeping not only herself but also  them save because she’s attracting the attention of both law enforcement and the villain organisation due to her magic.  Her love interest is from her country as well. They meet for the first time at the beginning of the story and later on, she’ll meet him and his mentor again.
I’ve considered making her mentor POC as well but wasn’t very happy with it. He’s pretty ruthless and definitely not the “White saviour”-type. He only agrees to mentor her because she looks like causing less trouble than the other potential candidate. 



			
				Gryphos said:
			
		

> I guess the big question is does her skin colour play or culture play an role in the story, or are they just window dressing?


Well, this one is pretty tough to answer. It definitely influences her character and her way of interacting with the world but the plot could probably work without it, I haven’t thought the alternatives completely through yet, though. The conflicts during the magic training are mainly related to class and as an in-world thing element rather than race though. The prejudice that does exist is more ethnicity-related than race-related. Also due to my upbringing, I’ve always identified as German rather than white.

The very rough story outline is as follows: MC uses her magic in a way that draws plenty of attention and is chased by both villains and police. Due to some bad experiences with the police, she tries to escape them as well not knowing that they only want to take her to their local (secret) magic training facility. 
A friend of her mother’s with connections to the other country takes her to a woman she knows there, they also find out about her magic and have her trained.
Afterwards, she’s spending some time at the magic training with mainly (but not only) white people before things turn more dire and she meets with a group of people from different countries and backgrounds including her love interest, his mentor, a friend of her mother’s and this woman’s son who go on a quest to stop the villain. Not the most original plotline I admit but I think the details make it so.


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## WooHooMan (Jun 15, 2015)

Just write the story the way you want to write it.  When it comes to politics (racial or otherwise), you can't please everyone.
That's my advice anyways.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 15, 2015)

Steerpike said:


> I question the very idea of cultural appropriation as it relates to literature. The entirety of human culture and experience should be open to you for whatever use you want in your stories.



Pretty much this. 

How on earth is an interest in Indian culture inappropriate? Has someone told you that? To the very idea that interest in a culture other than your own could be a bad thing I say, "Fie!"


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 15, 2015)

I would agree that the solution that I'd go for is to include not only white people around her. My reasoning is that if she's the only person of color in the area, she might feel like less of a well-rounded character who fits in until something bad happens, and more of a novelty.  I think that is where this might upset people.  I'm only thinking of this in terms of what people will criticize and I think if you have the only POC in the area as your MC, and she stands out because of her "difference" (meaning magic) it could compound the issue of her being different.  That might not resonate to people who have felt "different".  

I'm not any kind of authority on how people feel, especially regarding race, but if it were me, I'd have a nice mix of ethnicities in the area and have this character be just another girl, with white friends and mixed-race friends, and friends from traditional ethnic families, and let her magic be the thing that sets her apart from everyone else.

Best wishes.

P.S.  I would think there's a wealth of knowledge to be found on the internet and travel programs that can help you with a few cultural things to flavor your story.  Gordon Ramsey did a world travel where he tried cultural traditional cuisine from all over the world and it was really good.  You got to see the people who live in yurts in Mongolia and eat sheep testicles in milk, sure, but you also got to see them have a family gathering and the traditional instruments and some really interesting customs that we rarely hear about internationally.  I'd recommend it.  he did a good trip to India and the food they prepared was amazing.  Anyways, look for shows in the UK because they do a lot of travel to India and have really embraced a lot of Indian food and culture.  In fact, the national dish is a curry.  

Idiot Abroad is another show that shows cultures and while it's a bit gag-ish in ways, it's amusing and you certainly get to see some things you don't see in the more "glorified" travel programs.


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## cupiscent (Jun 15, 2015)

Amanita, I'm very sad to hear you're being discouraged from an interest in other cultures and in writing characters of colour. That is not at all what encouraging diversity should be about! To my mind - though admittedly I am also white, English-speaking and on the lucky side of colonialial history - genuine interest in other cultures is always appropriate and indeed good, as long as you appreciate that this isn't a sight-seeing or performance thing, it's a way other people live, with all the significance, history and context that comes along with that.

All of that should also be borne in mind when considering including non-white characters and settings in your writing. The key things to remember are to be thoughtful and considerate about the cultures - don't just pick some bits without considering what they mean - and to think about how character tropes and relationships might be interpreted. For instance, a brown girl with a white teacher strikes me as potentially troubling because it has overtones of the "white man's burden", or the idea that brown people are less civilised/enlightened/intelligent and need white guidance and education. But there are ways of working with that relationship within the scope of your story that can acknowledge and diffuse that potential concern. You just need to be aware of all of that. And prepared to mess up and, if that is the case, listen and use that feedback to do better next time.

I encourage you to engage and persevere with this, because I think diversity in the stories we read and write is so important to improve the humanity and empathy of all of us.


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## Feo Takahari (Jun 16, 2015)

The search for cultural appropriators, on Writing With Color and elsewhere, reminds me a lot of the search for fake geek girls. "Okay, you're Japanese, so you can write about Japanese people. And you live in Japan, so we'll let you off with a warning, but never forget you're a baka gaijin who knows nothing. Oh, you just like katanas? Shun! Shun!"

There are people in this world who are brown-skinned, pink-skinned, off-white-skinned, kind of bronze-ish . . .Write what feels right for your characters. I've written a character who was small and dark just to emphasize how she blended into shadows, and one who was drained of all color because she looked like a ghost. I've written a bitter black/Native American teenage runaway with a grudge against "progress," two Mexican lovers who shared a common language the other characters didn't speak, and a heavily mixed-raced youth whose cat-eared hat hides the impossibly poofy Afro of Doom. (And a Frenchwoman, because I found a French name that I thought fit well with her plot trajectory.) I've gotten yelled at once or twice, but I once got yelled at for _green_-skinned characters because someone thought they were an offensive stereotype of Native Americans (though an Apache reader didn't see that at all.)

Edit: To be clear, I absolutely believe cultural appropriation is a thing. Just look at the mess over the recent comedy Aloha, or that Native American comedy with Adam Sandler where a bunch of Native American actors walked off the set.


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## X Equestris (Jun 16, 2015)

Yeah, cultural appropriation is a thing, but most of the people throwing it around have absolutely zero idea what it actually means.  If someone can handle a culture respectfully, why does it matter who or what they are?  Not to mention that some of the people throwing the term around ignore actual culture and focus on race.  

As far as the topic of the thread goes, make sure your cast is diverse.  That way your protagonist isn't token.


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## Devor (Jun 16, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> One thing I've observed on this site is the pervading mindset . . . .



Your claim is a big leap from what anyone has said.  But even so, with all the very active debates that we've had on this topic, I'm completely lost for how anyone can claim any kind of extreme position like that is a "pervading mindset" at Mythic Scribes.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jun 16, 2015)

I understand the need for varied casts and I like writing lots of different types. I will say though, I don't think it's a requirement of good storytelling. Rather, diverse casts add to stories where they work. I prefer those types. 

As an example, if I wrote a story about an early Cromagnum tribe supplanting a Neanderthals (Just an example. I'm no expert on early man), I may not be able to write a very diverse cast. Or, my diversity choices would be more limited than a seafaring epic. 

Back on point....

One of my current POVs hails from a culture inspired by East Indian cultures too. I've been fortunate in life experience to work and befriend many Indian people from all over the world (India, England, Kenya, U.S., etc.). But, my character culture is a fantasy culture only _inspired_ by East Indians. There will be differences from our reality. It's my fantasy world.

If that's improper cultural appropriation, it doesn't really bother me. First, I'd never disrespect or malign someone's culture, quite the contrary. I have a great deal of cultural interest and respect. But, it's my story. It's my vision of a character. If someone doesn't like it, I really don't care. They can write their own story & portray what they want how they wish. 

I won't be told what in human history I have a _right_ to use, or that I'm confined to some box. The entirety of the human experience and its complete history is mine to use as source material.


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## cupiscent (Jun 16, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> The entirety of the human experience and its complete history is mine to use as source material.



Absolutely. BUT do the people whose experiences you are making use of also have equal ability to tell their own stories? (Genuine books on shelves connecting with wide readership ability, not the ability to have their stories sought out by dedicated parties.) If not, you run the risk of being taken by a readership as speaking for those people even if that was not your intention. And if you're speaking incorrectly or incompletely or stereotypically, the problem is much bigger, because that can be all the audience sees of that culture, and therefore what they think is truth.

Added to that is the fact that in some cultures, the right to tell stories is not universal. In Aboriginal Australian cultures, for instance, just because someone has told you a story does not give you the right to tell that story to someone else. Story-telling goes along with the respect and role of Elders, and needs to be earned.


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## Steerpike (Jun 16, 2015)

cupiscent said:


> Absolutely. BUT do the people whose experiences you are making use of also have equal ability to tell their own stories? (Genuine books on shelves connecting with wide readership ability, not the ability to have their stories sought out by dedicated parties.) If not, you run the risk of being taken by a readership as speaking for those people even if that was not your intention.



That's the fault/problem of the reader who misconstrues the work, not the author.



> Added to that is the fact that in some cultures, the right to tell stories is not universal. In Aboriginal Australian cultures, for instance, just because someone has told you a story does not give you the right to tell that story to someone else. Story-telling goes along with the respect and role of Elders, and needs to be earned.



Yes, but I'm not part of that culture. If I want to write about them, I will, and I don't feel bound by their cultural practices in determining whether or not I can do so. That just doesn't make sense to me as a writer. And what if you want to criticize a culture in your writing? That would be difficult if you had to defer to them at the same time.


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## Devor (Jun 16, 2015)

cupiscent said:


> Absolutely. BUT do the people whose experiences you are making use of also have equal ability to tell their own stories? (Genuine books on shelves connecting with wide readership ability, not the ability to have their stories sought out by dedicated parties.) If not, you run the risk of being taken by a readership as speaking for those people even if that was not your intention. And if you're speaking incorrectly or incompletely or stereotypically, the problem is much bigger, because that can be all the audience sees of that culture, and therefore what they think is truth.



I'm remembering _Memoirs of a Geisha_, and that makes me think there's some truth to this as a concept.  It's ironic because the closer you are to portraying the actual culture, the more likely your story is to be taken as a serious representation of that culture.

But I don't really see how that's supposed to be actionable. There's no way to represent a distant, different culture exactly right if you haven't grown up in it. It doesn't sound like a problem you can really fix.

And is that really a question for fantasy writers, which doesn't claim to portray real world cultures to begin with?


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## cupiscent (Jun 16, 2015)

It's somewhat disingenuous to say "the reader is reading it wrong!" if you haven't made a genuine and sincere effort to represent accurately on the page what the reader _should_ be reading.

It's not respectful to say "I'll do as I like with your culture regardless of what your culture wishes". Especially not when you are on the side with more power in the exchange. There are also ways to comment on a culture, even critically, while still respecting, understanding and considering context and reasoning within a culture. Indeed, it's less valid criticism if it _doesn't_ consider context.

And if a culture in a fantasy world is recognisable - and especially if the author _knows_ they are borrowing from real-world cultures - then a little consideration of whether you're being respectful and consistent or just using another culture as a buffet of exoticness is called for.

_I am not saying don't do it._ But showing consideration and respect is always polite.


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## Steerpike (Jun 17, 2015)

cupiscent said:


> It's somewhat disingenuous to say "the reader is reading it wrong!" if you haven't made a genuine and sincere effort to represent accurately on the page what the reader _should_ be reading.



I don't think this is necessarily true at all. Readers are all different. Do I have to be so explicit so that even the most thick amongst them are clear on what is going on? If I'm subtle, and a number of readers miss it, does that mean I was wrong to be subtle? I don't think so. If I decide to write a story that has some kind of social message to it (which won't necessarily be true of everything), I'll write it in a way that best conforms to my vision of the story and how I want things to unfold. If some readers don't follow along, so be it.



> It's not respectful to say "I'll do as I like with your culture regardless of what your culture wishes". Especially not when you are on the side with more power in the exchange.



I don't think this is something an author of fantasy works should give much consideration to. If you're writing non-fiction about a culture, then sure, you _may_ want to give consideration to what the culture thinks (although you also may not). When I'm writing a fictional story in a made up universe, I'm not writing about any culture on earth. I may pick and choose bits of real culture for flavor or even for substance, but in the end the culture is still a made-up culture, not the real world culture. I don't feel any duty or obligation to the thoughts of a real-world culture on what my fictional, invented culture is like. People looking that hard for something to be offended about are going to find it in a lot of places where it isn't warranted. 



> There are also ways to comment on a culture, even critically, while still respecting, understanding and considering context and reasoning within a culture. Indeed, it's less valid criticism if it _doesn't_ consider context.



If the story is meant to be a critique, then presumably one considers all sides of issues in forming the critique. What the culture itself thinks of the end product shouldn't influence the outcome (to get back to your 'what the culture wishes' comment). I should also note that 'what the culture wishes' is largely a fictitious statement, since cultures of generally made up of individuals with varying viewpoints.



> And if a culture in a fantasy world is recognisable - and especially if the author _knows_ they are borrowing from real-world cultures - then a little consideration of whether you're being respectful and consistent or just using another culture as a buffet of exoticness is called for.



Called for by whom? If I want to use a culture from human history as just a bit of flavor for a made-up fantasy culture there is nothing wrong with that. The situation is different if I'm actually writing non-fiction, or a story set in the real world that is meant to be a portrayal of a culture. But in a fantasy world, with a wholly invented culture? Not necessary. I have a fantasy culture that is partly influenced by the Maya. There are also a lot of aspects of the fantasy culture that I made up, and other aspects that are linked to other real-world cultures over history. A reader would be foolish to assume that I'm making commentary about the Maya, or that I'm portraying the fantasy culture as an accurate representation of Mayan culture. I'm not.

As for consistency - that's an odd admonition to fantasy writers. My culture is completely made up. As long as it is internally-consistent, that's all that is called for. The fact that it draws on real-world culture, whether for flavor or substance, doesn't mean any of it has to be consistent with the real world culture. Because, again, it is not _that_ culture I'm writing about. It's a made-up one that I've given flavor or expanded on by using bits of real human history and culture. Nothing wrong with that.

This, to me, is the underlying problem with the idea of cultural misappropriation when it comes to fiction writing. At some point, the underlying thought processes become unreasonable. To me, a reader who is reading a fantasy or science fiction story set in an entirely invented universe and takes a fictional culture to be a stand-in for a real world culture (unless the author makes it clear that is the intent), with all of the expectations and responsibilities attendant to such a use, isn't being reasonable in their reading of the work. I can't write my works to meet the expectations of unreasonable readers, and the more a writer tries to do something like that they more they tangle themselves up in knots instead of just writing a good story.

Again, if you're writing something that is meant to reflect on a real world culture, or is meant to be about them, and is meant to be as accurate a portrayal of the culture as possible, then everything changes - your duties as an author are entirely different. But if you want to snatch pieces of culture here and there to add flavor, backstory, ritual, mythology, or whatever else you want, to a made up culture in a made up world, there's nothing wrong with that, and it is counterproductive for authors to second-guess their vision of a story based on those kinds of considerations.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jun 17, 2015)

One of the issues I have with this idea of cultural appropriation is the confinement or limitations externally placed on writers. Perhaps I'm understanding it wrong, but it seems counter to the desire for greater diversity in fiction. Or, should I say, potentially harmful to that goal depending on how the idea is approached.

As Steerpike said above, we're talking about fantasy worlds strictly. I'd agree that in a piece which represents a real, living culture (or even historic, I suppose) the writer has a responsibility to accurately portray said culture, just the same as they do to portray members of that culture as distinct individuals and not some short-sighted stereotype. But, if someone is telling me, "Don't use the Chinese as a source of inspiration for a fantasy culture, or character, because that's appropriation", what does that leave me as a writer? That leaves my own culture. What I've grown up in, or only those I've had immersive living experience within. 

So, if I follow that path, then my stories may not be as diverse, at least in terms of race and culture. 

I don't disagree that writers should pull ideas from cultures respectfully. But, this notion that they're off limits for anyone on the outside-looking-in is absurd. Further, within any culture there will be multiple individual viewpoints on just about any topic you can think of. There may be a common shared belief system, but in the writing of an individual character, that character may not adhere to that belief. Hell, they may even mock that belief. Is that wrong? It's a character's outlook, not a dissertation of some stereotypical Chinese outlook toward religion or government. 

These are the types of arguments which may discourage writers from employing more diversity. We should be careful when our thinking potentially confines writers, limits their acceptable choices, or makes the telling of diverse stories daunting.


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## Devor (Jun 17, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> It's a character's outlook, not a dissertation of some stereotypical Chinese outlook toward religion or government.



I want to expand on this point.

As an outsider to Asian, African and Middle Eastern cultures, I just don't have much to say about them. At least, nothing so subtle and poignant as to write a novel's themes about. In so much as I might have a commentary to make, it would be about aspects of _my own culture_, and those that I'm immersed in.

Sometimes the contrast of a different culture is the best way to do that.

I mean to be respectful of the cultures I use. But part of writing fantasy comes the ability to change things about those fantasy cultures from their real world counterparts in order to better serve the story's needs and themes. But if I'm changing something about an East Asian culture, it's not because I mean to insult East Asia. It would be because I want to make a point about the attitudes of the U.S.

It's unfortunate if people would see it otherwise. But I don't see that as being enough of a reason to set that aside - it's one of the greatest tools that comes with writing fantasy.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 17, 2015)

It's one thing if your work involves an actual real culture that people in this world actually live in right now. If that's the case then yes, you should expend every reasonable effort to get the culture right.

However, we're fantasy writers here or at least spec fic writers. Most of us are not actually writing about any real world cultures. Nor are any of our characters from any actual real world cultures. If we create fantasy cultures inspired by real world cultures, those cultures are NOT in any way shape or form representative of the real world cultures. If we have characters that come from fantasy cultures inspired by real world cultures, those characters are NOT representative of people from the real world culture. But there seems to be a real problem with people reading imaginary world fantasy and seeing, for example, a culture based on China and just assuming that EVERYTHING about the fantasy culture is therefore representative of China. It's not. It's just NOT. The same thing happens when fantasy authors have a character with brown skin and people automatically assume that character and characters like them are representative of black people from our real world. People need to stop assuming things like that.  It's sloppy thinking. 

Fantasy writers should be able to take inspiration from any real world culture and give their characters any skin color or gender or orientation without having to take on the responsibility of representing everything about that culture, skin color, gender or orientation as it exists in the real world. If we keep putting that kind of responsibility on writers, especially those who are writing about completely different worlds, then we shouldn't be surprised when those writers decide it's just not worth it to try to write with any kind of diversity.


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## Aspasia (Jun 17, 2015)

Amanita said:


> When I started this project, I used to be very interested in Indian culture, food and clothing and wished to travel there if I got the chance but I’ve realised now that this kind of interest is not appropriate and I’ve given up on those travel plans as well.



To be quite honest, as a POC myself, I think anyone who indicated to you that this is "not appropriate" is completely wrong. And I'm from a culture that is _frequently_ treated like an amusing trinket to exotify things without understanding.

(If my tone sounds a little sharp, know that it's not at you, it's at the people who indicated this perfectly acceptable, and even good, interest in another culture is inappropriate)

There's absolutely nothing wrong in being interested in another culture. There is absolutely nothing wrong in travelling to another country that is steeped in that culture. "Cultural appropriation" is completely different from _interest_ in a culture. Interest in a culture is trying to understand it, enjoying it, experiencing the way other people live, act, and think. Appropriation is not giving a s**t about that culture, its history, and using its elements for some superficial purpose. Wearing figures of Hindu gods as jewelry, without even knowing what those gods are and what those figures mean, just because you think it's exotic and fashionable, is appropriation. Wearing an Indian outfit given to you by a friend is not appropriation. I'm extremely sad that you feel you had to give up an interest in another culture because you felt it wasn't appropriate--whatever advice was given to you has had the opposite effect of opening doors for people and letting cultures understand one another. Fetishism, exoticism--those are not okay. But curiosity and interest from a place of respect and desire to understand, and learn--this is _good._ 

In the context of writing, I feel it is difficult, especially in fantasy, to have cultural appropriation at all. Real-world story? Okay, if you didn't research and made your POC a pure stereotype, people will be legitimately pissed. 

In fantasy, we don't even set our stories on the real world usually. If you're writing alternate histories (where we're supposed to be on an alternate Earth, with alternate Earth cultures) and you're lazy about your research, that's bad. If you're writing pure fantasy not set on Earth, and want an exotic culture and think "hey China, that's exotic, let me just stick a few Chinese stereotypes in this fantasy culture and call it totallyNotChina"--that's bad too (and lazy). Note: stereotypes.  

If you want to base a fantasy culture on a real-world culture, of course that's perfectly fine. If it happens to resemble a culture that is not your own--again, perfectly fine. If the only reason it "resembles" that culture is because it is full of stereotypes--this is what people object to. If there's something sacred in that culture (and your fantasy culture is _clearly_ and intentionally based on that culture) and you treat it like s**t just because you don't understand or don't care--this isn't good either.

I've read books set in, and about my cultural background, written by white people and had absolutely no issues with them, because they researched. They listened. They didn't reduce my rich background to a handful of funny off-putting jokes and overemphasized stereotypical nonsense. Yes, I've read the opposite too, and they sucked. 

I would encourage you to keep your POC protagonist. Research, understand, and be thoughtful that culture. Think about your own culture--what would you hate someone else to say about it, or treat it? I'm not saying make it all roses and perfume, but do enough research that you know where the lines are and how not to step on them. I would say it's very good to have people of the culture you wish to represent read over your story. 

Diversity/race/ethnicity in books and writing is a tricky as hell topic because you don't know where everyone's coming from, how much they understand, and what they have experienced. But being afraid to ask, or to step out of your box, is more harmful than taking the plunge. It's good that people are thinking about POC in literature now. But the response to realizing a problematic situation, and not knowing if you can/should fix it, should not be silence. We're not trinkets, but we're not glass vases either. I want to encourage writers to step out of their comfort zone--that's the only way we'll see more diverse literature. Everyone _will _mess up, but by talking, researching, and understanding you can improve it, and grow as a writer. And note: There's absolutely nothing wrong with writing a pure European-based fantasy/story/whatever. You are the writer. Wanting to see more diverse literature != telling writers not to write what they're familiar/interested/comfortable with. 

This is probably rather long and involved for your question, but I've been seeing this topic come up a lot over the internet lately. Best of luck with your story.


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## Ben.D (Jun 17, 2015)

I agree with the majority replying; write the story you want to write with the setting and characters you picture. Changing any aspect of the story for any reasons outside of the story itself would make it inauthentic, which generally translates into weaker writing. On the cultural appropriation note I would argue that completely avoiding a main character as a poc is worse than misrepresenting them as whitewashing the story avoids the issue all together, while having their culture in the story, even if the representation of it could be controversial will lead to discussions and bring it to the forefront. I'd say just be ready to discuss and talk about the reasons for your characters race and culture and don't change it just to avoid controversy, controversy is good it leads to change.


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## StoryTypewriter (Jun 17, 2015)

I went recently to a fantasy writing convention.. one of the lectures was about writing history. The three ladies agreed that it can cause more trouble than not to use a minority's POV without talking to them, ask permission and do a thorough research (they were specifically talking about Aboroginal Australians but they insisted it applied to any minority).

As an European myself, I can tell you that European does not necessaliry mean white. (I am hispanic myself with olive skin for instance). The borders are open and people can migrate freely. Don't think in terms of stereotyping, go a bit further and write it as it feels right. Thats what I would do.

Ps you should travel to India. That kind of interest is healthy and you could be surprised with the results. This is coming from an Australia lover that ended up living in the country of her dreams 

Sent from my SM-G360G using Tapatalk


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## Steerpike (Jun 17, 2015)

Aspasia said:


> In the context of writing, I feel it is difficult, especially in fantasy, to have cultural appropriation at all. Real-world story? Okay, if you didn't research and made your POC a pure stereotype, people will be legitimately pissed.



Yep. I said something similar above with respect to the writing of fantasy literature. 

I'm not sure about the jewelry examples, and the like. I know non-Christians who wear crosses, or wear clothing with specific crosses like the Maltese Cross without knowing anything about its history. The latter is even used in company logos. People wear jewelry with Celtic knots without knowing anything about the cultural origin or meaning of them. This sort of ornamental expression makes its way across various societies and people see them and make use of them in their own way. 

I'm not sure in what way a culture can or should be said to 'own' ornamentation, or to control it in some way such that it is wrong for others not of that culture to use it. The rules of the ornamentation, and the sanctity, meaning, restrictions, and the like, are all well and good within the context of the culture itself, and if those within the culture choose to adhere to such things with regard to their symbols then that seems to me to be legitimately left to them to decide. But to people outside that culture, there's no more reason why they should be bound to the conceptions and practices of the culture with regard to ornamentation than anything else that culture does.


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## Amanita (Jun 18, 2015)

Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts.
The general tendency seems to be clear and agree with the choice I'm more drawn to emotionally. I'll keep my protagonist the way she is and I'll try to gather as much information as possible.
I'll probably take a break with this story to sort out a few things before I'll go back to the actual writing. As far as I've gathered, the white-Mentor-thing seemed to look most problematic to you among the things I've shared so far. Unfortunately, this man is quite important for the plot and he can't be a viewpoint character himself because that would give too much away. I'll definitely have to think about that.
So far, I have a black female character whose position and element would enable her to be the MC's mentor. A black character helping out the protagonist is considered problematic as well though but creating a character of the protagonist's race who happens to be at the right place in this other country feels somewhat artificial at the moment. Maybe I'll come up with a good reason for this with some thought though.

And maybe I better shouldn't apply every angry internet post on this subject to myself without knowing the entire context. Usually, in the cases where people have actually been offended by their portrayal in media, I did understand why and it wasn't as hard as it seems to be in abstract discussions.


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## Gryphos (Jun 18, 2015)

Amanita said:
			
		

> As far as I've gathered, the white-Mentor-thing seemed to look most problematic to you among the things I've shared so far. Unfortunately, this man is quite important for the plot and he can't be a viewpoint character himself because that would give too much away.



One simple solution to the issue of the white mentor is to simply make him not white. I understand that this change might be somewhat tricky if you've already worked out a whole bunch of his backstory, but it's something to consider anyhoo.



> A black character helping out the protagonist is considered problematic as well though...



Is it? I have never heard it said in any similar scenario that this would be problematic.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jun 18, 2015)

Why is it wrong to have a POC character with a white mentor?


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## Gryphos (Jun 18, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Why is it wrong to have a POC character with a white mentor?



Like all things in this topic, there are no clear cut rules or borders between right and wrong. Having a white mentor to a POC MC isn't 'wrong', but it _can_ be seen by some as subtly racist and colonial in its possible analogous links to real world racist colonial attitudes ('the white man's burden, etc.).


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## Steerpike (Jun 18, 2015)

Gryphos said:


> Like all things in this topic, there are no clear cut rules or borders between right and wrong. Having a white mentor to a POC MC isn't 'wrong', but it _can_ be seen by some as subtly racist and colonial in its possible analogous links to real world racist colonial attitudes ('the white man's burden, etc.).



The question is, how much of that is real and how much is the reader's own baggage? If you have a white mentor, that's not a problem. If you have a book where all of the smart, capable characters are white, and people of color are all portrayed as lesser than them, needing to be saved or taught, or whatever, then you may have a problem.


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## Trick (Jun 18, 2015)

Gryphos said:


> Having a white mentor to a POC MC isn't 'wrong', but it _can_ be seen by some as subtly racist



I have no time for this kind of reader. Or this kind of person in general. If you want to find an insult, you will. It's one thing for an author to do their best in avoiding racially offensive things, it's great; but having a POC in a largely white country work with a white mentor is just statistically plausible. Plus, the OP said that the MC fled her own country for some pretty good reasons, so no one should think that it was to go somewhere where there were white people who could teach her. That's a broken inference of the worst kind and I'd rather people with that mindset just not read my work.


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## Steerpike (Jun 18, 2015)

The problem is, there is legitimately problematic material out there where you really can see racial bias and other issues, and on the other hand there are plenty of people who are looking to find offense in even the smallest of things they don't personally like. 

To me, it is very difficult to point to a single, isolated aspect of a work (like a white mentor) and say it's a problem. That's a simply, lazy analysis. You have to look at it in the context of the work as a whole, and how it is handled, and maybe even in the greater context of the genre.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jun 18, 2015)

Steerpike said:


> The question is, how much of that is real and how much is the reader's own baggage? If you have a white mentor, that's not a problem. If you have a book where all of the smart, capable characters are white, and people of color are all portrayed as lesser than them, needing to be saved or taught, or whatever, then you may have a problem.


Well said. As with everything in writing, it's all about execution.

Let's talk hypotheticals & Star Wars for a moment. Bear with me....

For those that don't know, the next series of films will have a POC in the main protagonist role, played by John Boyega. Think this generation's Luke Skywalker. 

I know, no one has seen it yet (which is why I said hypothetical above). However, that is the strong indication for the coming movies. 

So if Luke is John Boyega's mentor that may be a great thing! It all depends on how it is handled. Does the character have his own agency? Is he treated as an individual? 

Especially in a fantasy setting, we can't restrict ourselves to thinking like, "POC characters must have POC mentors, because colonial viewpoint." That may not even exist in the fantasy world. 

It's something to think about, sure. I'll grant you that. However, it can easily be taken too far.

To the OP:
If having a white mentor for a POC protagonist fits the needs of your world and story, there's nothing wrong with it. It all just depends on execution, but people will moan no matter what you do. So...stay true to your story & vision.


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## Steerpike (Jun 18, 2015)

@T.Allen.Smith:

I think you're exactly right, and the point you made well above and I want to reiterate is that it makes no sense take bring the baggage of real world race history and colonialism and impose it on a fantasy world with such vastly different history from our own that those issues simply don't exist at all, or don't exist to an appreciable degree.

If you _want_ to create a history for your fantasy world where those things are relevant and explore them through your story, that's great. But imposing them onto a setting where they make no sense in the context of the setting itself is a mistake.


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## Amanita (Jun 18, 2015)

I did consider making the mentor non-white of course but I think this would do more harm than good. He is a very ruthless businessman who has been involved in a massacre committed against another (also white majority)-country. (The protag finding out about this hushed up situation was supposed to be one of the plot points.) A survivor of this event is another view-point character. (Their animosity is due to some amount of ethnical hatred but mainly different political and economic systems, different moral beliefs and power.)
Making one of the few powerful PoCs in a white majority-country act like that would open another can of worms. 
They don't have any sort of "I'm helping you because of the goodness of my heart"-relationship either and she neither likes him very much nor ever truly trusts him. 
This also means that changing to another mentor would strongly reduce the amount of conflicts she's facing which wouldn't necessarily be good from a plot POV. A few major changes would definitely be necessary.


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## Gryphos (Jun 18, 2015)

Steerpike said:
			
		

> To me, it is very difficult to point to a single, isolated aspect of a work (like a white mentor) and say it's a problem. That's a simply, lazy analysis. You have to look at it in the context of the work as a whole, and how it is handled, and maybe even in the greater context of the genre.



This, I think, is the key thing. Individual stories, unless they're really overtly racist and stuff, don't signify anything. Having a white mentor is completely fine. _However_, imagine if every single story always had a white mentor. That has some definitely questionable implications. I'm not saying that's the case, just using it as an example of how one must consider the wider social context a story is being written in.

However much we would like to try, you cannot separate fiction from the social environment it is created and consumed in.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jun 18, 2015)

I understand what you mean, Gryphos. However, no one is arguing that POC characters are underrepresented in fiction. Most of us here would likely accept that as a truth, but one that is improving.


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## cupiscent (Jun 18, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> So if Luke is John Boyega's mentor that may be a great thing! It all depends on how it is handled. Does the character have his own agency? Is he treated as an individual?



This is, in fact, precisely my point. There are no hard and fast rules, and characters should be characters first and foremost. But it helps to be aware of and consider what harmful stereotypes and common perceptions apply to various elements of race in literature and reality in order to ensure that you're handling things well. Otherwise, what you think is an individual character with his own agency may look exactly like every other stereotypical depiction of that race in literature before you to a reader more familiar with the area.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jun 19, 2015)

cupiscent said:


> This is, in fact, precisely my point.


So, the last 4 pages of debate were for nothing?


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## Svrtnsse (Jun 19, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> So, the last 4 pages of debate were for nothing?



Maybe it was fun? Entertaining? Enlightening?


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## cupiscent (Jun 19, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> So, the last 4 pages of debate were for nothing?



Don't know. Are we all more aware and considerate now?


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## Devor (Jun 19, 2015)

cupiscent said:


> Don't know. Are we all more aware and considerate now?



Who knows?

In my experience, you learn the hard way that these kinds of discussions aren't always a good indicator of people's actual behavior on these topics.


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