# The Wheel of Time (Amazon) (Spoiler Thread)



## FifthView (Nov 19, 2021)

Once again, labeling this a spoiler thread so I don't have to worry about hiding or revealing spoilers. Visitors beware. 

I don't have a lot to say about the first three episodes except that I loved them. I'm fully invested.

I've read the first four or five novels, when they were first published. I eventually had distractions in my life which, combined with the wait between books, led me to stop reading the series at that point.

From what I remember, the Amazon show seems to follow the first book rather well. I do think the development might seem slow to some reviewers and modern viewers. This might explain the somewhat low Rotten Tomatoes  scores. For my part there's this: Epic fantasies were always, _always_ about creating depth and broadness in the world. When I was younger, this was true. The Wheel of Time took its time, and I became immersed. (IMO, it did this a little better than GRRM's ASOIAF.) So I'm 100% fine with the fact that we're more or less still just traveling and/or discovering the world after the first three episodes.

Besides which, _Moiraine is a badass._

I may have more to say after new episodes.


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## Demesnedenoir (Nov 19, 2021)

I’ve only watched the first episode, and I will admit to remembering damned near nothing of the books I read way back when, heh heh. So, true to the books means nothing to me. 

It was okay, shows some promise, but at the same time, it demonstrates some possible weaknesses. It’s a wait a and see, which makes it nice there are 3 episodes out now, even if I’m putting them off to get more important stuff done, heh heh.


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## Steerpike (Nov 20, 2021)

Hmmm. I thought it didn’t follow the book very well, and most of the changes weren’t for the better. I don’t like the pacing or tone, which also seem off to me as compared to the book. The fridging decision just seems lame. I like the cast and it looks nice but I don’t know if I’ll be able to get into it.


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## Demesnedenoir (Nov 20, 2021)

That’s why it’s sometimes good to not remember the books… heh heh. My own world and stories pushed out my memories of most all other books and much of real life ages ago. Handy for writing, but terrible for remembering to pay the bills or argue the merits of a novel.

Some of the music and other thigs just kinda… I had moments of “this is nice” and moments of “rrrrrrr, eeeewww uuuummmm”. I’ll watch it, since there isn’t enough epic fantasy out there to keep me from it, heh heh.



Steerpike said:


> Hmmm. I thought it didn’t follow the book very well, and most of the changes weren’t for the better. I don’t like the pacing or tone, which also seem off to me as compared to the book. The fridging decision just seems lame. I like the cast and it looks nice but I don’t know if I’ll be able to get into it.


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## skip.knox (Nov 21, 2021)

I too don't remember much from the books, so I'm not real invested there. In the third episode I really noticed how dirty the other folks in the town were versus the two protagonists. That struck me as typical Hollywood. There's my constant complain about how modern video seems to think the best way to communicate the confusion of battle is to shake the camera and make lots of quick cuts. There are other ways to tell that!

As for the rest, I'm along for the ride. There truly is a grievous lack of epic fantasy on the screen.


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## Demesnedenoir (Nov 21, 2021)

I think LoTR and GoT in particular are the only two cinematic fantasies where I’m visually drawn into the world with the characters feeling “real” instead of just actors in costumes. GoT production I give massive credit, plus the music was excellent. I’m not sure why. Part is probably haircuts, make-up… must be a combination of things. It’s kind of like how all the cops in some shows look like models, heh heh. The Hobbit movies also fell out of the “real” to feel more like actors. Probably because of all the dwarves.

The music and dialogue are also… iffy for me. I mean, I’ll watch it and enjoy it, but I hope the Middle Earth series is done better.


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## skip.knox (Nov 21, 2021)

I'm a fan of old movies and the look of actors is really striking. There's a huge variety of facial types and even body types in the old stuff. In modern stuff, especially after 1980 or so, nearly everyone is pretty. No lumpy faces, no natural scarring, everyone looks reasonably well fed. It's not a huge issue and it's certainly OT. Just regard me as that guy at the party who starts complaining out of nowhere in the middle of someone else's conversation. <g>


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## Demesnedenoir (Nov 21, 2021)

It is interesting, because there is diversity in a sense, but in another, homogeny. LOL.


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## FifthView (Nov 22, 2021)

My only major complaint is that it's a weekly offering.

I wasn't too bothered by the pacing. Generally speaking, I approve. But I'm not sure the present approach and format are working well together. Remember the cliffhanger (hehe) at the end of the first episode of GOT? It was a proverbial page turner, it set up some immediate high stakes character tensions, and it left everyone asking lots of questions. Has anything in WOT done that yet? There are plenty of mild questions, curiosities about the world, plot, and characters—but they are curiosities at this point, even three episodes into the season. As such, no definite high stakes tension has been created.***  You need more certainties, like kids being thrown from towers by incestuous royalty, and fewer mild curiosities, for strong tension.

As I said, I'm generally fine with the pacing so far. It's just that I wish more episodes had been dropped already. I was personally invested—happy to take that meandering stream wherever it might lead. Only, it didn't lead anywhere yet. It's only hinting at directions. (Even if I do know some of the potential directions, having read the first 3 or 4 novels and remembering some things.)

**Edit:* With the exception of some action sequences, whether involving the Trollocs invading Two Rivers or the escape from the cursed city. The bats in throats and dreams and so forth might increase suspense momentarily. But how everything fits together is not answered for the casual viewer.


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## FifthView (Nov 26, 2021)

Episode 4 was nearly perfect. My problem now is that I'm fine with the Egwene and Perrin arc disappearing altogether, heh. I mean, _One of these things is not like the others / One of these things just doesn't belong / Can you tell which thing is not like the others / By the time I finish my song? _At least for this episode, this song came to mind.


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## FifthView (Dec 4, 2021)

The Egwene and Perrin arc finally became interesting.

But we have only three more episodes, and what has happened so far?


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## skip.knox (Dec 4, 2021)

>But we have only three more episodes, and what has happened so far?
Plenty has happened. I'm guessing what you mean is that nothing has happened that has seemed very interesting to you. That's fine. Me, I'm still enjoying the production itself--costuming, sets, panoramas. The story is already moving much faster than it did in the books.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 4, 2021)

It would have to happen faster than the books, heh heh.

I’m enjoying it, though I haven’t watched the latest episode, but it still doesn’t suck me in. Still feels like a bunch of modern people slapped into a movie to me rather than getting me that extra step into the suspension of disbelief. 



skip.knox said:


> >But we have only three more episodes, and what has happened so far?
> Plenty has happened. I'm guessing what you mean is that nothing has happened that has seemed very interesting to you. That's fine. Me, I'm still enjoying the production itself--costuming, sets, panoramas. The story is already moving much faster than it did in the books.


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## skip.knox (Dec 4, 2021)

True dat. Everyone is too pretty. A couple of faces have character, but for the most part the skin is too smooth, the teeth too straight, the eyes too clear. With most movies I can ignore that, be oblivious, but it is somehow more noticeable with fantasy movies, or with anything set pre-modern.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 4, 2021)

Yeah, not sure why that hits me more in fantasy and medieval period stuff. Name of the Rse was one that really worked for me. Most don’t, even if I enjoy them.  



skip.knox said:


> True dat. Everyone is too pretty. A couple of faces have character, but for the most part the skin is too smooth, the teeth too straight, the eyes too clear. With most movies I can ignore that, be oblivious, but it is somehow more noticeable with fantasy movies, or with anything set pre-modern.


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## FifthView (Dec 4, 2021)

skip.knox said:


> >But we have only three more episodes, and what has happened so far?
> Plenty has happened. I'm guessing what you mean is that nothing has happened that has seemed very interesting to you. That's fine. Me, I'm still enjoying the production itself--costuming, sets, panoramas. The story is already moving much faster than it did in the books.



I’m enjoying it as well, the same things. I’ve found a few things very interesting. I rated episode 4 as “perfect."  But for a season, there’s not been much movement in the plot, and the season is about to end.


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## FifthView (Dec 10, 2021)

With episode 6, I feel like the plot is finally getting moving. We've been introduced to the characters and the world at last, and now it's time to get on with it. I mean, there'll be some good ol' fantasy adventuring.  (And new characters, new parts of the world, even so.)


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## Steerpike (Dec 11, 2021)

I felt like this episode pushes me more toward thinking this is a mediocre adaptation at best. Not sure I’m going to watch the rest of it at this point. I still like the cast.

edit to add: just saw the last part of ep. 6. I’m going to say it’s a bad adaptation. They should have just created a new IP.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 11, 2021)

I still haven't even watched #4... but I blame polishing up the audiobook for Whispers of Ghosts, heh heh. Fortunately, I recall so little of the books that sticking to the story won't matter, heh heh.


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## FifthView (Dec 12, 2021)

I remember so few details from the books, I can't tell whether significant story-breaking changes have been made.

I do seem to recall that Moiraine was not the main character, or at least not _the_ only main character.  Rand was the POV character for much of the early story, right? But it seems the showrunners have decided to make Moiraine the focal point.

Although I've enjoyed the Rand/Mat and, less so, the Egwene/Perrin diversions, their arcs haven't been as fully developed. The emotional and intellectual focus has been on Moiraine and her warder; those other arcs have presented curiosities, mostly.

I've also begun to worry this development strategy might continue. Sure, the four Two Rivers friends have "suffered" in one way or another in the episodes leading up to #6, but by their reunion at the end of episode 6 any character growth seems to have been put on hold. Perhaps Mat escapes this treatment—he has truly changed in some way—because he broke with his book self and chose to stay back. But the others? Just hugging and greeting one another again and, again, blindly stepping where Moiraine tells them to step.

BUT. I very much love Moiraine in this show, and I guess I love the actress who is playing her. I really could enjoy a whole series based around her.  (Except, I'd miss the-series-that-could-have-been, in which the others step into the limelight as well.)

I will keep watching, waiting and seeing. I will be a little upset if this character development for the others doesn't get much attention this season and I have to wait for next season. Two more episodes so...we'll see.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 12, 2021)

Through episode 4 and not impressed. Good enough to watch, but so far it does nothing to make me beg for more, heh heh.


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## FifthView (Dec 12, 2021)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Through episode 4 and not impressed. Good enough to watch, but so far it does nothing to make me beg for more, heh heh.



I find I'm liking the _ambiance_, I guess you could say. I'm really loving Moiraine, but it's not supposed to be her story only. The world building interests me. I'm just not convinced there's a real _story_ here, not yet anyway. This is not a criticism of the original Jordan/Sanderson story, which I've been told is massive and satisfying by the end, but of the show development.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 12, 2021)

Likewise, although I grew bored between book releases and stopped reading WoT waaaaay back when, heh heh. 


FifthView said:


> I find I'm liking the _ambiance_, I guess you could say. I'm really loving Moiraine, but it's not supposed to be her story only. The world building interests me. I'm just not convinced there's a real _story_ here, not yet anyway. This is not a criticism of the original Jordan/Sanderson story, which I've been told is massive and satisfying by the end, but of the show development.


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## Steerpike (Dec 22, 2021)

My opinion of the show is steadily declining as I watch new episodes.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 23, 2021)

I just watched the pregnant lady fight scene, and I mean, the show has been rather sad with fight scenes anyhow, and armor design... But, this scene takes the category of "why the hell do these people wear armor" combat scene to another level. Or maybe because was the first scene of the episode I paid more attention. I'm sure that was intended to be exciting and dramatic, but failed.

At this point, I mostly watch out of curiosity and my daughter is okay with it, heh heh.


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## FifthView (Dec 23, 2021)

Just finished the season.

It feels like a show that authentically  had the chance to be an 8 or 9 but, stubbornly, chose to be a 6.

The pacing is the very worst aspect of it.  Imagine your favorite season of your favorite show. The WoT version of that show's season would be 1/4 as long and skip from major event or plot point to the next with very little in between. And, stubbornly, the too-few in-between parts are individually drawn out much longer than they need to be.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 23, 2021)

I haven't finished yet... but. yeah. That's part of it. To be blunt, I think it's piss poor story telling all around.

Whatever lessons might have been learned by the success of the first 6 seasons of GoT were lost and instead... well, this is what we got, which feels more like the last season of GoT withOUT a quality set up, heh heh. So much could be said, but not much point.



FifthView said:


> Just finished the season.
> 
> It feels like a show that authentically  had the chance to be an 8 or 9 but, stubbornly, chose to be a 6.
> 
> The pacing is the very worst aspect of it.  Imagine your favorite season of your favorite show. The WoT version of that show's season would be 1/4 as long and skip from major event or plot point to the next with very little in between. And, stubbornly, the too-few in-between parts are individually drawn out much longer than they need to be.


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## FifthView (Dec 23, 2021)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Whatever lessons might have been learned by the success of the first 6 seasons of GoT were lost and instead... well, this is what we got, which feels more like the last season of GoT withOUT a quality set up, heh heh



Ha, yeah, like that.

Wait until you see the little scene at the very end of the season. I'll assume many readers of the books will know its import, but for everyone else it will be a "Huh? Okay I guess" moment.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 25, 2021)

The last episode wasn't terrible until that last scene... eeyeah. Not real good, but it was at least a little entertaining. The whole tends to bear the hallmarks of fantasy that leaves me flat. Too "high magic" or whatever on top of questionable storytelling. With Sanderson's producer credit I thought maybe... but then, while I love Sanderson as a helpful writer bloke, I can see where he'd be into the cool-over-substance that tends to plague these sorts of movies.


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## FifthView (Dec 26, 2021)

Demesnedenoir said:


> I just watched the pregnant lady fight scene, and I mean, the show has been rather sad with fight scenes anyhow, and armor design... But, this scene takes the category of "why the hell do these people wear armor" combat scene to another level. Or maybe because was the first scene of the episode I paid more attention. I'm sure that was intended to be exciting and dramatic, but failed.



I really liked that scene. A lot. But then I've always been a fan of stylized bad-assery.

My problem with the scene is how it was used in the episode/season/show.  It's as if the showrunners thought, "Whelp, we need this episode to focus on Rand. We need to reveal Rand is in fact the much-discussed Dragon Reborn. Rand started as a baby once-upon-a-time, right? So we need to show his birth. And we need to make him a bad ass by extension....

Oh yeah, even if we are going to 'hide' [giggle giggle] his being the Dragon Reborn until the end of the episode. [tee hee]."

I mean, everything about its inclusion and use there was contrived.

I would compare his birth scene to Kirk's birth scene in J.J. Abrams' _Star Trek_.

We already knew about Kirk. Who he was. Who that baby was destined to be. Etc. We had all the context and history with the character. The opening to that movie is one of my all-time favorite movie openings.

But Rand? The Dragon Reborn? Heck, even the Aiel? To this point, there hadn't been much, at all, about any of it. No context. No reason for us to care much about what is happening in that scene. I suppose you could say there was no _resonance_. Perhaps long-time fans of the book might have felt some resonance, but for everyone else it would have been lots of flash and bang about nothing.

*Edit:* Oops, was writing the above when you commented again, this time on the final episode.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 26, 2021)

The end just seemed determined to clue is in that there was going to be a season 2 over and over and over, heh heh. Kind of the opposite of the last MASH saying goodbye over and over and over.


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## FifthView (Dec 26, 2021)

Demesnedenoir said:


> The end just seemed determined to clue is in that there was going to be a season 2 over and over and over, heh heh. Kind of the opposite of the last MASH saying goodbye over and over and over.



A lot of the season felt mechanical. Paint-by-number.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 26, 2021)

Fake bad assery scenes died for me sometime during a Tarantino movie and never came back to life, heh heh.



FifthView said:


> I really liked that scene. A lot. But then I've always been a fan of stylized bad-assery.
> 
> My problem with the scene is how it was used in the episode/season/show.  It's as if the showrunners thought, "Whelp, we need this episode to focus on Rand. We need to reveal Rand is in fact the much-discussed Dragon Reborn. Rand started as a baby once-upon-a-time, right? So we need to show his birth. And we need to make him a bad ass by extension....
> 
> ...


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 26, 2021)

I concur. Plot by dots.



FifthView said:


> A lot of the season felt mechanical. Paint-by-number.


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## FifthView (Dec 26, 2021)

Ha, and I was also thinking of Kill Bill when I wrote that sentence. (re: bad-assery)


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 26, 2021)

I never did see Kill Bill. I've avoided Tarantino flicks for a long while. I finally watched Django Unchained and was horribly unimpressed. You know I was unimpressed because I just used an adverb there.



FifthView said:


> Ha, and I was also thinking of Kill Bill when I wrote that sentence. (re: bad-assery)


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## FifthView (Dec 26, 2021)

Demesnedenoir said:


> You know I was unimpressed because I just used an adverb there.



I authentically and literally laughed out loud to this.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 26, 2021)

Thinking a little more on the bad assery scene, part of it is a taste and realism issue, but it isn't that a movie can't get away with stylized bad assery with me, it's just that it needs to be done in a way that pulls me into the world in such a way as to accept it. Natural Born Killers. Matrix, as an oddball tech example, or Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Wheel of Time simply hasn't managed to check my disbelief at the door, heh heh.


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## FifthView (Dec 26, 2021)

Yeah, there was a lack of resonance. I don't think I ever knew how Rand was born, or at least didn't remember it from the first several books, but I remembered the Aiel from the books and I always loved them. Even if they made me think they might be a knock off of the Fremen. Or a close cousin. So it resonated a little bit for me, an, "Aha! Yes! I remember the Aiel" sort of thing. The rest of the episode didn't live up to the initial hype for me, and the fact that its placement came to feel contrived also hurt it once my hindsight kicked in.

There were other cases of this. The Aes Sedai lightning storm, with burnt out Aes Sedai resulting, was really good. But it reminded me of all the other parts of the season that weren't great, heh. 

And there were promises not kept. Like Perrin. The final episode actually pissed me off when I saw Perrin meekly acting, as if utterly helpless. Hadn't I been promised more?


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 26, 2021)

The burnout scene was nice, the FX on the face were cool.


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## FifthView (Dec 26, 2021)

I've also noticed that Game of Thrones, in comparison, would flip through multiple locations, sets of characters, in any given episode, but Wheel of Time felt much more locked in to only two or three locations/sets of character. I've wondered if this was a cost-saving move, a failure of imagination, a failure of storytelling—no dots to connect elsewhere, heh—or what.  This limited the development of context and interest. 

For instance, Mat just disappeared. Why couldn't we have seen more about his fate afterword? What about what was happening at the White Tower, or with Liandrin and the Red Ajah, during the final episode?  Heck, there could have been so much more added to the season, so many more _threads to weave_.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 26, 2021)

Agreed. Maybe they spent too much on the Tolkien license, heh heh. But yeah, GoT was far more expansive, but the why WoT didn't try for more is beyond me. The episode count was anemic, and that was a problem for the end of GoT as well. 



FifthView said:


> I've also noticed that Game of Thrones, in comparison, would flip through multiple locations, sets of characters, in any given episode, but Wheel of Time felt much more locked in to only two or three locations/sets of character. I've wondered if this was a cost-saving move, a failure of imagination, a failure of storytelling—no dots to connect elsewhere, heh—or what.  This limited the development of context and interest.
> 
> For instance, Mat just disappeared. Why couldn't we have seen more about his fate afterword? What about what was happening at the White Tower, or with Liandrin and the Red Ajah, during the final episode?  Heck, there could have been so much more added to the season, so many more _threads to weave_.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 26, 2021)

The good news is that I started to get into the world of the Witcher by the end, so I'm holding out hope for season 2. It has it's silliness, but shockingly, I like the overall vibe better than WoT.


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## FifthView (Dec 26, 2021)

I thought The Shannara Chronicles first season was silly with horrible writing, but the second season was miraculously much better. (Still not great, but not horrible.)

So there's hope for WoT.

I haven't had much interest in watching the second season of Witcher.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 26, 2021)

Shnarra... I can't even give it a second chance, heh heh. The Witcher, I can take it or leave it, but since it's there I'll watch it before rewatching WoT, heh heh. I find it amusing, but I'm in no hurry to watch it.

It helps that I have zero vested interest in Witcher, I'd never heard of the books let alone read them, heh heh.



FifthView said:


> I thought The Shannara Chronicles first season was silly with horrible writing, but the second season was miraculously much better. (Still not great, but not horrible.)
> 
> So there's hope for WoT.
> 
> I haven't had much interest in watching the second season of Witcher.


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## FifthView (Dec 26, 2021)

Demesnedenoir said:


> It helps that I have zero vested interest in Witcher, I'd never heard of the books let alone read them, heh heh.



I've never read them, but I've tried playing the video game, and I lost interest in it. I'll probably give S2 a chance eventually.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 27, 2021)

Someone just told me that the actor playing Matt just up and left the show, hence the strange exit... heh heh.


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## FifthView (Dec 27, 2021)

I know the character has been recast, but I don't know the circumstances.


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## Steerpike (Dec 27, 2021)

I’ve enjoyed season 2 of the Witcher. I thought season 1 got off to a weak start but ended pretty well and found season 2 to continue to improve on it for the most part.


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## Nighty_Knight (Dec 29, 2021)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Shnarra... I can't even give it a second chance, heh heh. The Witcher, I can take it or leave it, but since it's there I'll watch it before rewatching WoT, heh heh. I find it amusing, but I'm in no hurry to watch it.
> 
> It helps that I have zero vested interest in Witcher, I'd never heard of the books let alone read them, heh heh.


You have any questions I’m pretty much a Witcher fanboy. The show does make it a bit more, ummm, television show presentable. I like the show overall though. The books are a bit darker. But the books are a bit less action packed as well. The games were great and the third game is probably my all time favorite game. Fantastic story, atmosphere, and dialogue and did the books pretty good justice.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jan 10, 2022)

I'm trying not to watch shows now... must... finish... my... next... book. I thought writing the Contessa was going to friggin cake, and the story just keeps throwing me for loops... that and life interfering, LOL.


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