# Subjects that automatically cause reader discomfort



## Feo Takahari (Jan 24, 2013)

I got the idea for this thread after reading a story about a character, adopted into a different society, struggling to integrate himself into that society and become a respected member of it. About halfway through, it was mentioned that it was legal for members of that society to keep slaves of the protagonist's race, and the protagonist met a slaver who distinguished in his rhetoric between citizens like the protagonist and "lesser" folk like slaves. The author just treated this as a part of the society, neither good nor bad, but this so severely impacted my ability to sympathize with the protagonist's goals that I stopped reading the otherwise well-written story.

Has anyone else had this reaction to a relatively small element of a story? Do you think there's any writerly lesson to be taken from this, or is it entirely a matter of personal taste?


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## Philip Overby (Jan 24, 2013)

Everyone has that "line" of which they don't want crossed.  For whatever personal philosophies one has, I don't think writers should extensively worry about offending people.  If they did, they'd be constantly second-guessing every single thing they write.  I've had moments when I'm writing that I think, "Well, that might bother someone if I leave it here," but then it's ultimately up to the author if they want to risk that.  It's impossible to gauge what is offensive to every single reader.  You either play it safe and only write family friendly fiction or you go forward with whatever vision you have.

If something prevented you from further enjoying the story, then that's fine.  It's your right.  When reading and writing I often learn lessons about myself.  There are certain "lines" I don't cross because I prefer not to.  It's like anything else, it comes down to personal preference.


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## shangrila (Jan 24, 2013)

Personally, I don't think I have a line. There's subjects I don't touch when I'm writing because I can't do them respectfully, such as rape, but it would take a fair bit to stop me from reading a book all together.

That said, I can't stand poorly written romances. I almost put down the Mistborn trilogy because of Vin and Elend, for example. So I suppose that might count for what you're talking about.


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## SineNomine (Jan 24, 2013)

I think the big, huge, overbearing one in literature is rape, simply because it can not only offend the reader, it can do them active harm.  For very good reasons some people just have the enjoyment of a book sucked out instantly by having rape, especially graphic "on screen" rape show up in an otherwise good tale, especially if it blindsides them.

I've never had a small element like that cause me to quit reading a book, but it's impossible to not be an observer of the fiction reading community and not see that lots of people do.  While no author should be cowed into not writing about any particularly thorny issue (Artists, including writers, are often leading the charge on presenting uncomfortable subjects in an accessible way to people who would otherwise never approach them), I think all writers need to be aware as much as humanly possible of what these issues are and how they could potentially affect their readers.  The important thing is do your damnedest to treat those issues with the respect they deserve and, yes, if you feel you can't possibly do them justice, maybe even back off from including them.

Of course, that doesn't help as advice in the case of the author of the book you speak of since the author seems to be ignorant of the fact that what he wrote could be seen as an issue.  I guess that drives home the importance of being aware of the implications of what you write.  Writers need to have a strong social consciousness, even if for no other reason than it helps them create believable societies, though understanding how what they write can make readers feel is pretty gosh dang important too.


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## Steerpike (Jan 24, 2013)

I think it is a matter of personal taste, and I don't think readers should place a great deal of constraint on their own writing due to these sorts of considerations. Part of what literature does, sometimes, is make people feel uncomfortable. If everyone stopped writing things that made people uncomfortable and stuck only to mainstream, advertiser-approved feel good messaging, the world of literature would be a much poorer place.

I can't think of a line for me personally. There is slavery in my fantasy world, and if that makes the reader want to read something else, then that's what they should do.


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## Roc (Jan 24, 2013)

Slavery doesn't put me off.

I agree with a person on rape...that's just something a lot of people are avoiding to write about, and if they do, it's not in great detail.


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## Kit (Jan 24, 2013)

Roc said:


> I agree with a person on rape...that's just something a lot of people are avoiding to write about, and if they do, it's not in great detail.



Seems to me that there's a ton of rape in books, esp in fantasy.

I think one of the big hot buttons is still homosexuality (esp male homosexuality, in the eyes of male readers). I hope that is changing, albeit with glacial slowness.


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## dwellerofthedeep (Jan 24, 2013)

I don't think the question is whether or not the reader is discomforted by subjects. Extreme violence, especially sexual violence is a turn-off to many readers, with good reason. However, it is often a matter of presentation. The Hunger Games featured a lot of low-impact violence, so its not as offensive (for lack of a better word) to its demographic. Personally, I think the problem I have is when struggle is made pointless. This side-character will die now Because.
This idea is right Because, is another problem, but that's usually more a problem of author's-message than it is of subject matter.
Poor writing might offend people, but that's a matter of execution, not subject.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jan 24, 2013)

I'm with our feline friend Steerpike on this one.

I WANT some level of discomfort in both my reading & my writing. Discomfort is what causes the greatest emotional reactions with a few notable exceptions like the emotion of love. There are many facets of humanity, that are inherent or ever-present in reality, that are detestable. However, these actions and ideals are the drivers of conflict. In my opinion, no topic should be off limits. It's the author's choice on how graphically they display such actions, or highlight such ideals.

These topics should be included IF they are a necessary part of the story. As with any bit of writing, inflammatory or not, if it isn't necessary it should be cut. If these negative elements are necessary for the story then shying away from topics like slavery, rape, or any other negative aspect of the human condition seems like dishonesty in writing. Protecting the reader isn't giving the reader much credit. I would hate reading something where I feel like I'm being coddled by the author.


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## WyrdMystic (Jan 24, 2013)

I agree, it is all about presentation and neccessity. 

For me I'll give any story a chance, but if I get to a point where I physically shudder then I'll bin it, I'm looking for enjoyment in the books I read.

though for any topic, if I'm left thinking....why? what was the point in that? I'll probably bin it anyway.


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## Ireth (Jan 24, 2013)

WyrdMystic said:


> If they truly wanted to be realistic though, why are there no men getting raped? Why is only the female characters?



Interesting question. My vampire novel includes the offscreen rape of many males by females, and the MC's father is one of the victims, resulting in more than one illegitimate half-sibling for the MC. The rape is performed as a means of protection -- the rapists and victims in question are all kept captive by the antagonist, to be killed and eaten one by one by the populace of the vampire city. The antagonist has firm rules against harming pregnant women and young children, so the women are naturally desperate to conceive, and not all of the men are willing to have sex continually with every woman in the place. The MC's father is rescued from the vampires after an unknown period of time, and is very traumatized by the whole experience. At no point is it said that the rape was okay, by either the men or the women involved.

On a side note, the same novel also involves homosexuality as well, between the MC and his male love interest. No rape there, though.


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## WyrdMystic (Jan 24, 2013)

New and different. Like it.

Apologies to everyone who missed it but I deleted a large chunk of my post.

Essentially, things like rape in a story serve multiple purposes, like tragedy, threat, character development even, but in most fanatsies that include the subject it is almost always female characters being raped by men and, if you took that part out, the story would not suffer meaning the sole purpose is to meet some misguided view of realism (as rape has never been limited to male/female) and to shock. Shock is good yes, but without real purpose it's just off putting filler.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jan 24, 2013)

WyrdMystic said:


> Shock is good yes, but without real purpose it's just off putting filler.



Yes. That's the crux of it.


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## Feo Takahari (Jan 24, 2013)

If it matters, I made another attempt to read the story, and discovered I was reacting to something much more integral to the narrative than I'd previously realized. (It's complicated, so I'll explain it in a PM if anyone's interested--basically, there's an assumption I don't agree with that underlies the entire story, and the mention of slavery was where I first began to recognize it.)


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## Jess A (Jan 24, 2013)

Hmm, to address two points made above (rape and slavery):

I once read a book and skim-read to the end (I have a bad habit of doing this lately). The protagonist had raped somebody earlier in the book, it seemed. Even if it wasn't described (I never read the scene if it was there), the fact the 'good guy' had done it just put me off, no matter how bad he felt. I did not feel he could redeem himself. I just feel that strongly about that issue.

I put it down right away.

As for slavery, one of my book's protagonists was raised in a society which  keeps slaves. He was raised to believe it was normal, but he eventually comes to realise the practice is wrong (especially as he himself becomes a slave). In his eyes, anyway. On top of this, another protagonist comes from a country that also keeps slaves.

I won't deny it is hard for me sometimes to write that some of the protagonists at some stage view slavery as normal. So I certainly want them to change this view throughout the novel. But it doesn't bother me anywhere near as much as rape does. Slavery seems to be a common theme in fantasy.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jan 24, 2013)

Jess A said:


> The protagonist had raped somebody earlier in the book, it seemed. Even if it wasn't described (I never read the scene if it was there), the fact the 'good guy' had done it just put me off, no matter how bad he felt. I did not feel he could redeem himself. I just feel that strongly about that issue.



Evil acts committed by a protagonist can make them unredeemable for some readers. What if the rapist was a villain? Would it have the same affect for you on the overall story?


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## Steerpike (Jan 24, 2013)

Thomas Covenant is one character that comes to mind. He's not particularly likeable to begin with, but I think Donaldson did a good job with him.


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## Jess A (Jan 25, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Evil acts committed by a protagonist can make them unredeemable for some readers. What if the rapist was a villain? Would it have the same affect for you on the overall story?



I did not address this obvious point, my apologies.

If the rapist was a villain and the rape scene was not described - just mentioned - I would be more likely to continue reading. I do not like to read about rape in any case - it makes the hair stand up on my neck, it makes me very uncomfortable. If the rape scene - villain - was described, but I was really enjoying the book, then yes, I would continue, but I would skip that passage and go to the next chapter. 

---

Feo: Any reason you can't explain on this public thread?


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## Jamber (Jan 25, 2013)

I have to admit, I never really got over Thomas Covenant's behaviour. He was just that bit too... besmirched. I enjoyed the first in the series a lot, but never read on, and I think perhaps the dreaded R was why.

Yet it's a strange thing, though: that moment in George R R Martin's series when we start feeling for Jaime, the one who threw a child out a window. I find the GOT series disturbing _and_ gripping at the same time, for many reasons (some of which my hopelessly moral conscience frowns at me for).

Maybe that's the appeal (for me) of GOT: it shakes me out of my comfort zone into a world that's that little bit too real, _and_ I can tell myself I'm being naughty because of it. 

I think I'm with those who read looking for a little bit of discomfort. But it has to be uncomfortable for a reason, even if that reason is just to make me question my values. Irrational discomfort (that doesn't comment on rationality)... No, thanks.

Jennie


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## Amanita (Jan 25, 2013)

I don't have any subjects that make me stop reading "automatically". At least, I can't think of any at the moment. It's always about the way the subject is being treated.
There are some subjects such as slavery for racial reasons that I prefer to stay away from in my own writing, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. If the author starts to justify it and actually shows all characters of the "slave race" being miserable if not taken care of by their masters or something, the point to put the book away is reached. The same goes for other matters as well.
I don't think anything should be excluded if it would normally happen in a situation like the one described in the book. 
One of those is the fact that some and often many men of all cultures, races and religions start to rape women in war if they have a chance to get away with it. I don't want to speculate on why that is and usually, the perpetrators don't talk about it, but I don't think pretending it doesn't exist will make it go away. Still, I have problems writing it in my own stories just for the reasons described by others. 
Because that subject matter is so taboo, it's extremely hard to write the perpretators in a believable manner without villifying them completey. Some may argue that even attempting this is immoral but I can't really believe that all the Red Army soldiers committing rape at the end of WWII for example where evil without any chance to ever lead normal lifes again. 
Writing about evil things people did talk about is much easier to do in a convincing manner.

All in all I'm with the group of people who don't believe that literature should gloss over the unpleasant parts of human nature. This doesn't mean that they have to be in every story though.


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 25, 2013)

Speculative fiction is a great way to explore difficult concepts while escaping at least some of the emotional context that makes the issues thorny.  The first example that comes to mind is Alien Nation.  

The story is about racism, but, because the racism is directed at an imaginary alien race, it was able to reach an audience that wouldn't have been interested if it were about a story in a real setting.

Not saying that someone reacting in an "ick" way to a fictional portrayal is wrong as much as just pointing out the power of the genre.  I'd hate for an author to stifle his creativity over concerns like those expressed in this thread.

I'm off to write my next story about an alien race that rapes its slaves...  Ah, maybe not.


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## Kit (Jan 25, 2013)

Jamber said:


> Yet it's a strange thing, though: that moment in George R R Martin's series when we start feeling for Jaime, the one who threw a child out a window.




Oh, me too. I find myself swinging from hating him to kinda liking him..... but no matter what he does, he just can't come back from tossing a little kid out of a tower window.

I have the same problem with Tyrion, whom I liked a lot (despite his killing of a musician) right up until....






spoiler ahead!























....he killed Shae. I certainly get why he did it, and there's an argument that she had it coming, but I still wonder if that was going a bit too far.  Now I likewise swing between "he's cool/he's a jerk".


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## SeverinR (Jan 25, 2013)

A while back, children killing and killing of children was disturbing.
Compare the first Conan with the remake. It was basically unthinkable to have Conan as a kid fight back or kill someone with the first, the second it was fine.
     also it allowed for Conan to have sword experience rather then just build his muscles for years with no fighting.

"Hunger games", I didn't think I would like seeing kids killing each other, the movie portrayed it well.
"Kick ass"-tween or young teen gets shot a couple times and kills many violently.

I think many uncomfortable "obstacles" are coming down, good or not? I don't know.


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## Jamber (Jan 25, 2013)

Kit: Yes, and Cersei, when she reveals a tiny thread of what makes her human. It's not that she's any less terrible, but it's a bit harder to want her to suffer unimaginably for what she's done. 

In response to BWFoster78's fair point, if discussing the 'ick' factor stifles someone's creativity, I'd think they weren't all that sure of their ideas in the first place. Perhaps it's good for them to feel challenged to work around what readers prefer, e.g. learn to write extremely compellingly (as I feel Martin does).

cheers
Jennie


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## WyrdMystic (Jan 25, 2013)

I don't think the concern is stifling creativity - I think the concern is adding the 'ick' for the hell of it and not for a specific reason (as with Alien Nation). Adding it just because is not creative. Adding it to give power to the story is.


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## Steerpike (Jan 25, 2013)

I agree with Severin, and as best I can tell from what is out there in teen/YA fiction, there is no subject matter that's off the table. I haven't seen one about intimate relations with farm animals yet, but that's about the only thing I haven't seen.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jan 25, 2013)

WyrdMystic said:


> I don't think the concern is stifling creativity - I think the concern is adding the 'ick' for the hell of it and not for a specific reason (as with Alien Nation). Adding it just because is not creative. Adding it to give power to the story is.



Concern can stifle. If the concern is over how something is portrayed, that's one thing. If the concern is over how readers may feel towards the subject, that's another. 

"Some people--and I am one of them--hate happy ends. We feel cheated. Harm is the norm. Doom should not jam. The avalanche stopping in its tracks a few feet above the cowering village behaves not only unnaturally but unethically."
- Vladimir Nabokov

I'm taking this quote on a tangent away from dealing with happy endings but I feel this sentiment also deals with how characters behave. If rape or murder or being a slave trader is in a character's nature, we should not shy away from it as long as that character and their actions are relevant & necessary to the story.


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## Steerpike (Jan 25, 2013)

Nice quote. That used to be my forum quote, which I've since exchanged for another one by Nabokov.


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## WyrdMystic (Jan 25, 2013)

Completely agree and very well put. I meant the 'concern' of the people on the forum in this context, rather than specifically the 'concern' of the author.


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## Jamber (Jan 25, 2013)

WyrdMystic said:


> I don't think the concern is stifling creativity - I think the concern is adding the 'ick' for the hell of it and not for a specific reason (as with Alien Nation). Adding it just because is not creative. Adding it to give power to the story is.



Yes, that's the way I feel. It should be there for a reason, or I don't want to invest in it. The reason can be pretty 'out there'—it doesn't have to be there to prove that good can challenge bad. At least that's my feeling.


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## Jess A (Jan 26, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> I agree with Severin, and as best I can tell from what is out there in teen/YA fiction, there is no subject matter that's off the table. I haven't seen one about intimate relations with farm animals yet, but that's about the only thing I haven't seen.



A way of hinting that this is your next project?


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## Steerpike (Jan 26, 2013)

Jess A said:


> A way of hinting that this is your next project?



Yep. My working title is _Reindeer Games_.


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## Jess A (Jan 26, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Yep. My working title is _Reindeer Games_.



Haha. Does it involve Santa?


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## Steerpike (Jan 26, 2013)

Jess A said:


> Haha. Does it involve Santa?



Yeah. Santa, Rudolf, three elves, a bit of string, and a bottle of ordinary household dish soap. I can't really say more than that without giving it away.


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## Jess A (Jan 26, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Yeah. Santa, Rudolf, three elves, a bit of string, and a bottle of ordinary household dish soap. I can't really say more than that without giving it away.



At risk of going way off topic: Have you heard of a play called _The Reindeer Monologues_? Very funny.


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## Jabrosky (Jan 27, 2013)

I care less about the presence of "uncomfortable" subject matter in a book than I do about how it portrays that subject. If a book features rape for example, that wouldn't necessarily turn me off. If, on the other hand, the book somehow argues that rape is justified or condonable, that would outrage me. I'm much more interested in what positions a book takes on the issues than whether it mentions those issues at all.

My own novel, which I have finally returned to writing after yet another re-outline, does feature the notoriously controversial problem of racism. By that I don't mean allegorical "fantasy racism" with orcs or aliens as the targets, but rather old-fashioned white-on-black human racism. This familiar brand of racism plays such a prominent role in my story that it motivates the main villain more than anything else. My villain, the ruler of a white supremacist apartheid state, wants to keep her son away from the black female protagonist. At first she will wear a veneer of politeness about it (in fact, her true agenda becomes apparent only late in the story), but trust me that once the climactic battle commences, she will shower the most revolting taunts I can conjure onto the heroine.

Would that discomfort some readers? No doubt it will, but all that would do is make the villain's defeat all the more satisfying.


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## RDelaval (Jan 30, 2013)

I write historical fantasy, so I have to take into consideration the uncomfortable notions that were once considered cultural norms. To ignore them would be historical fallacy. One such topic is slavery. 

I know I can't stop readers from seeing the word "slave" and thinking of the 18th century American south, but slavery in ancient Greece (the setting for my WIP) was a bit different. One of my characters is very callous about his slaves, but I want you to be a little uncomfortable about him and his motives so I feel this can add to that overall perception. Another topic is that my MC is under the threat of incestuous rape. Again, I want you to squirm a bit, to feel the ominous threat she lives with every day. There's a political reason for that threat, however, that drives the main plot; it's not simply thrown in to make the antagonist look like like a mean old man. 

Will that get readers to put my book down? I honestly don't know. What I do know is that to be true to my story, my characters, and my setting, I can't gloss over these issues or make them perfectly palatable to modern sensibilities.


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