# Creating A Good "Hook"



## Ireth (Sep 28, 2012)

Hoe do you craft your beginnings to hook your readers and reel them into your story? I'm having trouble with this in my novel Winter's Queen, which I had thought finished, but apparently it still needs a lot of work. I've received feedback from both agents and members of this site that the first scene doesn't hook them. I myself really like the scene in question, because it shows the heroine and her father in their normal, happy lives, with hints of lurking darkness around the corners, before said heroine gets kidnapped.

I've since tried to revise the scene three times, and each time I like it less and less. The first time or two, I tried to weld a hook onto the first couple of paragraphs, which to me felt clunky and artificial, and not quite fitting with the tone of the later subject matter. The third (still incomplete) revision is a total rewrite, with a much grimmer tone and a definite sense of danger. I like that one least of all, despite it being appealing to a beta reader, because it basically consists of an almost-argument between the heroine and her father on whether she's allowed to go out at night on Halloween when the Fae are abroad, and why she legitimately shouldn't go. Aside from the fact that Ariel has good reason NOT to go out, and I NEED her to for the plot to work (so having her father talk her into staying home is a bad idea), I want the father/daughter relationship to be shown in a happy light before the poo hits the fan in the following scene. In light of this, I have no idea what to do: go with a beginning I personally hate but others like, or stay true to my original vision as much as possible?

For those interested in reading the scene in question, it's here: http://mythicscribes.com/forums/showcase/4848-rethinking-my-opening-scene.html


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 28, 2012)

My advice is to keep working until you come up with something that both you and the beta readers like.  Really examine why you don't like their suggestions.  

Their end is pretty easy to understand.  Give them tension, emotion, and a hook, and they'll be fine with everything else.

I get you.  You need for her to go out, but there's no good reason for her to.

You have to create a compelling reason for her to go out.  It must be strong enough to overwhelm the reasons not to go and be something that she must hide from her father.

You can also have her sneak out of the house, thus avoiding the confrontation with her father.  This gives you the chance to create the tension of the possibility of getting caught.


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## Ireth (Sep 28, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> You have to create a compelling reason for her to go out.  It must be strong enough to overwhelm the reasons not to go and be something that she must hide from her father.



One of the other reasons I dislike the third revision is because it puts a different level of trust between Vincent and Ariel. In the first versions of the scene, Vincent trusts Ariel to stick with her friends when she goes out, to be back home before midnight, and to defend herself against the Fae if necessary. In the third, it seems like he doesn't trust her nearly as much, and she has to defend her desire to go out. Having her hide something from him would weaken that trust even more, which I don't want, because when the Fae finds her in the very next scene she immediately puts her trust in her father to save her, and after she's kidnapped she still hopes he'll find her even while she does her best to escape on her own.



BWFoster78 said:


> You can also have her sneak out of the house, thus avoiding the confrontation with her father.  This gives you the chance to create the tension of the possibility of getting caught.



I'm not sure I like that idea so much. Ariel loves her father dearly, and would not willingly do anything to break his trust in her. The fact that she inadvertently "breaks curfew" by not being home before midnight is the fault of her kidnapper and no one else -- she is on her way home well before 12 when she's waylaid by her kidnapper and taken into Faerie. Besides, I'm sure Vincent would notice long before midnight that his daughter has sneaked out, and he'd be well on his way to find her again before the kidnapper shows up, which would again break the whole plot if her father finds her before the kidnapper does.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 28, 2012)

> One of the other reasons I dislike the third revision is because it puts a different level of trust between Vincent and Ariel. In the first versions of the scene, Vincent trusts Ariel to stick with her friends when she goes out, to be back home before midnight, and to defend herself against the Fae if necessary. In the third, it seems like he doesn't trust her nearly as much, and she has to defend her desire to go out. Having her hide something from him would weaken that trust even more, which I don't want, because when the Fae finds her in the very next scene she immediately puts her trust in her father to save her, and after she's kidnapped she still hopes he'll find her even while she does her best to escape on her own.



Hmmm.  I get what you're saying.  My first thought is that there is a natural tendency of the parent/child relationship to develop into "you're too young/it's not safe" on the parent's part and "I'm old enough" as the child seeks to establish their independence.  However, if you don't want to go there, I understand.

How about something like: Vincent's birthday/Christmas/Some Major Gift Giving Occasion is approaching.  Ariel has a line on the PERFECT gift.  The only problem: she HAS to get it now.  If she doesn't go out tonight, the opportunity is lost.  This strengthens the concept of her love for him while providing a plausible reason for her hiding her actions.  

That may not be a great concept for you, but I think the idea is sound.  There are surely ways to create a situation where she needs to leave the house but can't tell her father about it without destroying trust.

Does that help any?


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## Anders Ã„mting (Sep 28, 2012)




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## Ireth (Sep 28, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> Hmmm.  I get what you're saying.  My first thought is that there is a natural tendency of the parent/child relationship to develop into "you're too young/it's not safe" on the parent's part and "I'm old enough" as the child seeks to establish their independence.  However, if you don't want to go there, I understand.
> 
> How about something like: Vincent's birthday/Christmas/Some Major Gift Giving Occasion is approaching.  Ariel has a line on the PERFECT gift.  The only problem: she HAS to get it now.  If she doesn't go out tonight, the opportunity is lost.  This strengthens the concept of her love for him while providing a plausible reason for her hiding her actions.
> 
> ...



I like that idea, though I'm not certain it would work. I deliberately picked Halloween as the date for Ariel's kidnapping for two reasons: a) because that is the day the Unseelie or "evil" Fae come into power, and all sorts of nasty things are said to go out among mortals on that night, so having her be trick or treating presents a natural excuse for her to go out and get kidnapped by the Unseelie prince; and b) it's expected of her to dress in a costume, and having her go out as a princess would give the kidnapper even more reason to want her for his bride, since he can see what a good princess she'd make for him. Plus it gives Vincent and his brother the maximum possible time limit to get into Faerie, find Ariel and bring her home before her intended wedding date to the prince, on the Winter Solstice. As to your other point, Vincent's birthday is on the 5th of November, which would make Halloween an okay day for Ariel to buy his present, but she'd have to go out in the daytime for that, and the Fae largely prefer twilight and night.


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## Guru Coyote (Sep 28, 2012)

If you like your first version of the scene the best... maybe you should not change it, but rather find another scene to hook the reader with. I might try to describe the future kidnapper peering in through the windows and being witness to the very scene you had originally written.


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## Ireth (Sep 28, 2012)

Guru Coyote said:


> If you like your first version of the scene the best... maybe you should not change it, but rather find another scene to hook the reader with. I might try to describe the future kidnapper peering in through the windows and being witness to the very scene you had originally written.



That's a possibility, though it might seem odd to begin with the villain's POV and then never have it show up again. I'd have to be VERY careful about writing that, since I don't want the full extent of his motivations known until the climax, when Ariel figures it out for herself, and Fiachra really is the type to gloat to himself about his evil plans of evilness. (Smug bastard.) Though I admit, having him hide outside the living room window and then invisibly follow her the whole way as she goes trick or treating would be super-creepy... but it might not work if Vincent, knowing about the Fae as he does, has things in place around the house to prevent them from entering (iron, rowan wood, etc.), which is very likely.


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## wordwalker (Sep 28, 2012)

Ireth said:


> Vincent's birthday is on the 5th of November, which would make Halloween an okay day for Ariel to buy his present, but she'd have to go out in the daytime for that, and the Fae largely prefer twilight and night.



It's always possible the Perfect Present is a unique item she's seen that, for various reasons, becomes available at night. Maybe it's in a going-out-of-business sale and she can't afford it, but she finds out that the owner is still closing down the shop at night and hasn't sold it, and she just might be able to catch him and bargain before he leaves town.

Or, once she's outside, there are all sorts of things that can make that more dangerous than it should be, and do it by supenseful degrees. Her watch could break so she loses track of the time. Her friends could start some dangerous prank or dare and she leaves them for safety's sake. 

--Still, these are mostly ways to build slowly rather than have a high-powered hook right off, and that may be part of what you want. One way to get that is to raise the curtain right at the moment that the ordinary back and forth happens to mention something that could be ominous, or an Odd Reaction someone has to things, when it has that extra focus of being the first paragraphs. Or the start could be some mostly-unrelated conflict or struggle, even a petty "is the right toy going to slip out of the arcade Crane Game's crane, or...", whatever you can deliver a brief thrill out of. Or there's always the monster's-viewpoint prologue, just ignore regular viewpoint for one sinister page because it's the very start and called a prologue.

I think it's all about focus, either finding what moment you can mess with or which thing is right if you zero in on it.


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## Jared (Sep 28, 2012)

Ireth said:


> Hoe do you craft your beginnings to hook your readers and reel them into your story? I'm having trouble with this in my novel Winter's Queen, which I had thought finished, but apparently it still needs a lot of work. I've received feedback from both agents and members of this site that the first scene doesn't hook them. I myself really like the scene in question, because it shows the heroine and her father in their normal, happy lives, with hints of lurking darkness around the corners, before said heroine gets kidnapped.



Do you like it because you know what happens next? If so, readers don't have that perspective.

I read the link and agree that there's no strong hook. Any tension of her going out without an adult is being diffused (for me) by the laughing and joking, and them agreeing that he's an overcautious widower.




Ireth said:


> I've since tried to revise the scene three times, and each time I like it less and less.



Instead of revising it, what happens if you ditch it completely? What's the next scene?




Ireth said:


> That's a possibility, though it might seem odd to begin with the villain's POV and then never have it show up again.



I don't know how you feel about it...but that's one of the uses of a prologue. The first few chapters should be in the POV of the main POVs, since readers will start to attach themselves to those characters. But readers (that won't put a book down because of a prologue) do tend to accept a one-shot non-main-POV POV. Epic more than urban fantasy, but still. Something to consider.


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## Shockley (Sep 28, 2012)

Without knowing what's there, this is the advice I always use - cut to the action. If something has to be mentioned, go for it - if not, cut right to the first mandatory scene.


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## Ireth (Sep 28, 2012)

wordwalker said:


> It's always possible the Perfect Present is a unique item she's seen that, for various reasons, becomes available at night. Maybe it's in a going-out-of-business sale and she can't afford it, but she finds out that the owner is still closing down the shop at night and hasn't sold it, and she just might be able to catch him and bargain before he leaves town.



Hmm... possibly. 



wordwalker said:


> Or, once she's outside, there are all sorts of things that can make that more dangerous than it should be, and do it by supenseful degrees. Her watch could break so she loses track of the time. Her friends could start some dangerous prank or dare and she leaves them for safety's sake.



Already thought of something like that.  She winds up alone because her friends leave her, she assumes for a prank, and when they don't show up she heads homeward on her own. Then the kidnapper shows up to snatch her away. Having her wear a watch which breaks is kind of pointless, because she has a cellphone on her, which she uses to call her father while fleeing the kidnapper, tipping Vincent off that he needs to get out there and save her NOW. Unfortunately, he gets there about half a minute too late.



wordwalker said:


> --Still, these are mostly ways to build slowly rather than have a high-powered hook right off, and that may be part of what you want. One way to get that is to raise the curtain right at the moment that the ordinary back and forth happens to mention something that could be ominous, or an Odd Reaction someone has to things, when it has that extra focus of being the first paragraphs. Or the start could be some mostly-unrelated conflict or struggle, even a petty "is the right toy going to slip out of the arcade Crane Game's crane, or...", whatever you can deliver a brief thrill out of. Or there's always the monster's-viewpoint prologue, just ignore regular viewpoint for one sinister page because it's the very start and called a prologue.
> 
> I think it's all about focus, either finding what moment you can mess with or which thing is right if you zero in on it.



I tried the first suggestion already -- Vincent mentions that there are "more than just trick-or-treaters out there" not long into the opening scene, which tips the reader off that there's danger awaiting Ariel if she goes out. Tried the second idea as well, with a "zombie" showing up on Vincent's porch in the first paragraph, and it fell flat, IMO. Didn't feel like the right kind of hook to start the story with. I've considered the prologue idea, but as I said above in reply to Guru Coyote, it would be VERY hard to write from the villain's POV without spilling his entire motivation on the first page, which is something I want to avoid so Ariel can figure it out for herself.


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## Ireth (Sep 28, 2012)

Shockley said:


> Without knowing what's there, this is the advice I always use - cut to the action. If something has to be mentioned, go for it - if not, cut right to the first mandatory scene.



If you'd like to read the scene and the first revisions as well as the feedback offered, see the link at the bottom of my first post.


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## Shockley (Sep 28, 2012)

To be honest, I'd cut out the entire scene leading up to him putting on his Halloween costume. Even without that, you still show that they have a close relationship, he's a concerned parent, etc.

Edit: In addition, that would cut you right to the ominous talk about what's outside, and the dangers of autumn/winter. Though I'd revise that entire scene, since she should already know that it's dangerous outside.

Second Edit: In fact, the more I think about it the more I am inclined to suggest cutting out this entire chapter. Cut it right to the point where he finds out that she's been kidnapped - you can express plenty about his character, the dangers of the world, etc. while immediately providing a dangerous, interesting world for the reader to jump into.


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## Butterfly (Sep 28, 2012)

> Having her wear a watch which breaks is kind of pointless, because she has a cellphone on her, which she uses to call her father while fleeing the kidnapper, tipping Vincent off that he needs to get out there and save her NOW. Unfortunately, he gets there about half a minute too late.



I think this could be the starting point for you. The phone ringing, Vincent answering it to hear his daughter's voice... in peril. Focus on his fears, something imagined, unseen. Perhaps experiment a bit with opening at that moment. It may work, may not.


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## Ireth (Sep 28, 2012)

Shockley said:


> To be honest, I'd cut out the entire scene leading up to him putting on his Halloween costume. Even without that, you still show that they have a close relationship, he's a concerned parent, etc.
> 
> Edit: In addition, that would cut you right to the ominous talk about what's outside, and the dangers of autumn/winter. Though I'd revise that entire scene, since she should already know that it's dangerous outside.



Good points. I think starting with the ominous part of the scene would be a nice hook, though it comes at the cost of the lighthearted stuff I'd also like to keep in there before the darker stuff sets in. I also want to keep the part where Vincent and Ariel explicitly mention the danger, since it establishes that they've known it for a while ("We have this talk every year." "Yes, and you know why." etc.) and makes sure the reader knows something's up as well.


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## Shockley (Sep 28, 2012)

I like how Butterfly and I came to roughly the same conclusion at roughly the same time.


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## wordwalker (Sep 28, 2012)

Ireth said:


> I tried the first suggestion already -- Vincent mentions that there are "more than just trick-or-treaters out there" not long into the opening scene, which tips the reader off that there's danger awaiting Ariel if she goes out.



I was thinking of putting the hint not just "not long into" the scene but in about the first or second paragraph, of a scene that's already been running. That is, in case what you want is to be sure the very start has its own oomph.



Ireth said:


> I've considered the prologue idea, but as I said above in reply to Guru Coyote, it would be VERY hard to write from the villain's POV without spilling his entire motivation on the first page, which is something I want to avoid so Ariel can figure it out for herself.



Guess I skipped past that one, . But it doesn't have to be the Big Bad himself. What about a minion or lesser villain, maybe a scout, or even a human who has his own reasons for thinking "Tonight's going to be very bad"? They don't have to be someone who knows the whole backstory, just anyone who can be ominous.


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## Ireth (Sep 28, 2012)

Butterfly said:


> I think this could be the starting point for you. The phone ringing, Vincent answering it to hear his daughter's voice... in peril. Focus on his fears, something imagined, unseen. Perhaps experiment a bit with opening at that moment. It may work, may not.



That happens in the next scene, from Ariel's POV. The actual kidnapping doesn't happen immediately after Ariel meets the guy; he starts out acting nicely, then slowly turns creepy, and at last she realizes he isn't human, which makes her flee from him and call her father for help. I really want to include all of that, so switching to Vincent's POV wouldn't really work, as it'd make the scene very different.


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## Ireth (Sep 28, 2012)

wordwalker said:


> I was thinking of putting the hint not just "not long into" the scene but in about the first or second paragraph, of a scene that's already been running. That is, in case what you want is to be sure the very start has its own oomph.



Yeah, that would make sense. But see my above response to Shockley (post #16).



wordwalker said:


> Guess I skipped past that one, . But it doesn't have to be the Big Bad himself. What about a minion or lesser villain, maybe a scout, or even a human who has his own reasons for thinking "Tonight's going to be very bad"? They don't have to be someone who knows the whole backstory, just anyone who can be ominous.



There really aren't any lesser villains to fall back on; the anti-villain who'll show up a few chapters later doesn't count. There is a Bigger Bad behind the Big Bad, though, so there's potential there. I'm not sure about a scout, since the villain will be going to kidnap Ariel himself, without a middleman. Dunno about another human, either.


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## Shockley (Sep 28, 2012)

Ireth said:


> Good points. I think starting with the ominous part of the scene would be a nice hook, though it comes at the cost of the lighthearted stuff I'd also like to keep in there before the darker stuff sets in. I also want to keep the part where Vincent and Ariel explicitly mention the danger, since it establishes that they've known it for a while ("We have this talk every year." "Yes, and you know why." etc.) and makes sure the reader knows something's up as well.



 Well here's the issue I have with that: Your story from what little I can tell is fairly dark (starting with a kidnapping at all), so you have to be really concerned about tone. It's alright to be light-hearted, but I wouldn't suggest starting out like that.

 Harry Potter is a great example. The first book starts with something incredibly dark (the death of Harry's parents and his life with the Dursleys) and ends with something dark (the revelation that Voldemort isn't as dead as they think, oh and hey there's the dead body of my teacher.). It ends in the same way it starts - dark, foreboding of things to come.

 No scene is fully light-hearted throughout the series. Plenty start that way, but they never end like that - it could be the happiest Christmas ever, but you can bet your life that some awful/foreboding/evil gift will be delivered by the of the night. If they're enjoying some new wizarding experience that is cute and magical, you can bet Malfoy is going to show up and rain on their parade. Etc. 

 So the light-hearted can't be there for the sake of light-heartedness; it has to fold into the darkness and, as written, that doesn't happen in your first chapter.


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## Ireth (Sep 28, 2012)

Shockley said:


> Well here's the issue I have with that: Your story from what little I can tell is fairly dark (starting with a kidnapping at all), so you have to be really concerned about tone. It's alright to be light-hearted, but I wouldn't suggest starting out like that.
> 
> Harry Potter is a great example. The first book starts with something incredibly dark (the death of Harry's parents and his life with the Dursleys) and ends with something dark (the revelation that Voldemort isn't as dead as they think, oh and hey there's the dead body of my teacher.). It ends in the same way it starts - dark, foreboding of things to come.
> 
> ...



All good points, though I have to point out another famous example that goes against what you've said. LOTR is epic and dark for most of the book, and yet it starts out with the hero's birthday party. Heck, the Shadow isn't even mentioned until chapter two. Granted, Bilbo's disappearance is surprising and a good kickoff to the book, but it's not really dark or foreboding until you learn that the Ring is the ONE Ring.


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## Butterfly (Sep 28, 2012)

I think it's important to stay objective about your writing. A few questions to ask yourself...

What is the scene doing for the story?

Is it getting in the way of telling the rest of the story?

Is it interesting?

Is it necessary?

Is it one of your darlings?

Will the story flow and work better without it?

Does it do what it promises to do?

Am I being honest about it?

Most importantly - Does it work?

Edit - Wanted to add -

And - What are my reasons for keeping it/cutting of it?

Will it improve if I do? -

I've asked these questions of myself over and over and over. I have about a dozen different starts, from prologues to chapters. they were all false starts, and I think I've finally found the right one. It's only by asking questions such as these that I have come to finding it, but of course, nothing's set in stone. It may still change.


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## Agran Velion (Sep 28, 2012)

Please take the below advice with a grain of fae dust. 

When I pick up a book at a store, I do four things.

1) Check Cover (I judge the hell out of covers)
2) Read back/dust jacket

The first two are to make sure that I'm not picking up a vampire romance. 
3) Flip to a random page to make sure the writing is legible. 
4) I read the first chapter (or first few pages)

I've always felt that the first pages are what should hook you, rather than set the scene. There's a whole wall of books in the store , and I can only buy a handful, so I make sure I'm interested right off the bat. Your first few pages are not the foundation (where you set the scene) but rather a sales pitch. I don't need to immediately know that the world I'm about to go to involves a duke who wants to conquer his brother's kingdom. What I do need to know is that there's a nobleman's son who has been has been taken at sword point and is looking to escape. 

I think the biggest problem with your hook, is that you know more about the characters than we do. If this is the first time I'm seeing the two of them, I don't really care too much about them, or their relationship. If I just opened the book in a bookstore and the first thing I start reading is about a happy daughter/father relationship, I'm going to start eyeing that book with the soldiers in the foxhole. I feel that it's always good to start off with some immediate tension or drama, if only to amuse people with bad attention spans like me. 

Now, some ideas: 
Maybe Ariel is already kidnapped, but is having flashbacks? This way, you have the immediate drama, but can still have the relationship between her and her dad put in (all you'd need to do would be break up this scene). The suspense of wondering how she got kidnapped would be pretty great as well. 

You could start off the chapter with blatantly saying that Ariel is going to get kidnapped. A bit more crude, but it might help add the tension you could be looking for. 

Maybe you can toss in a few things to throw off the lighthearted moment. Your two characters can still act the same way, but maybe have Vincent look outside the window and get a sense of forbidding, Ariel getting queasy when she steps outside, etc.

Edit: Sorry if anything I said has been repeated or answered. I've had this page open (and not refreshed) for awhile.


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## Ireth (Sep 28, 2012)

Agran Velion said:


> Please take the below advice with a grain of fae dust.
> 
> When I pick up a book at a store, I do four things.
> 
> ...



Very good points.



Agran Velion said:


> I think the biggest problem with your hook, is that you know more about the characters than we do. If this is the first time I'm seeing the two of them, I don't really care too much about them, or their relationship. If I just opened the book in a bookstore and the first thing I start reading is about a happy daughter/father relationship, I'm going to start eyeing that book with the soldiers in the foxhole. I feel that it's always good to start off with some immediate tension or drama, if only to amuse people with bad attention spans like me.



Well, the author knowing more about the characters than others do is kind of unavoidable, but I see your point.



Agran Velion said:


> Now, some ideas:
> Maybe Ariel is already kidnapped, but is having flashbacks? This way, you have the immediate drama, but can still have the relationship between her and her dad put in (all you'd need to do would be break up this scene). The suspense of wondering how she got kidnapped would be pretty great as well.



I'm not too big a fan of flashbacks, generally. The first draft of my vampire novel utilized them, and I've since edited it out in favor of making the event that was flashed-back to be the beginning of the story, even though the original flashback happened on page two, after an equally-dramatic event which wound up being excluded entirely from the next draft due to changing character reactions.



Agran Velion said:


> You could start off the chapter with blatantly saying that Ariel is going to get kidnapped. A bit more crude, but it might help add the tension you could be looking for.



That wouldn't really fit with the narrative voice or style, which is strictly POV-based. When I enter a POV, I can't reveal anything they don't know, so saying right off the bat that Ariel will be kidnapped when neither she nor her father has any idea of it would be jarring and ruin the surprise when it does happen, and we feel her terror from inside her head.



Agran Velion said:


> Maybe you can toss in a few things to throw off the lighthearted moment. Your two characters can still act the same way, but maybe have Vincent look outside the window and get a sense of forbidding, Ariel getting queasy when she steps outside, etc.



Well, that's what I was hoping to accomplish with the mention of things-that-are-not-trick-or-treaters lurking in the streets after dark. Maybe it wasn't blatant enough.



Agran Velion said:


> Edit: Sorry if anything I said has been repeated or answered. I've had this page open (and not refreshed) for awhile.



No worries.  Thanks for all your input.


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## Shockley (Sep 28, 2012)

Lord of the Rings is great in spite of Tolkien's writing/composition ability, unfortunately, so I wouldn't use that as my rock.


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## Ghost (Sep 29, 2012)

Ireth said:


> Hoe do you craft your beginnings to hook your readers and reel them into your story?



I don't know. Keep that in mind for the rest of this post. 



Ireth said:


> I've since tried to revise the scene three times, and each time I like it less and less. [...] In light of this, I have no idea what to do: go with a beginning I personally hate but others like, or stay true to my original vision as much as possible?



I don't see why you'd keep a scene you hate. You're the author. This isn't a collaboration between you and the beta readers. That page is the first impression a reader will get. It ought to be something you're proud of.

Anyway, I remember the scene didn't pull me in because I didn't enjoy either character and I didn't feel any curiosity or urgency. I wasn't concerned with the what might happen to these people, nor was their world interesting to me based on that scene.

You might want to make a list of the things you love about the first version of the scene and a second list of the problems people had with the scenes. You don't have to do what others suggest, but if you can find where you're losing them you're better equipped to bridge the gap. (And if someone says, "Hm, why don't you make the daughter punch the dad?" it might actually translate to "Make _something_ happen.")

Also, I think conflict and tension help, but conflict between Vincent and Ariel isn't necessary. They're the easiest to latch on to because they're the only people in the scene. Since it begins with Vincent, perhaps you can give him a small problem, something to react to. Maybe a trick-or-treater says his costume sucks or threatens to egg his house. Maybe work piled up and, now that Ariel's going out, candy duty distracts him. (When he finishes, he'd realize how late it is and worry about Ariel.) Maybe he could play a prank on a trick-or-treater. Show his personality. Allowing him to react or experience more emotions might draw people in.

I don't know these Marshall twins, but perhaps they could be the reason Ariel is going out on Halloween. Maybe they're younger and their parents wanted someone older to watch over them. Maybe their parents are protective of them and compromised by allowing them to go with Ariel. Of course, she wants to help her friends. Vincent and Ariel might talk about how the Marshall twins' parents want to protect them from witches or goblins and laugh it off. It could echo how Vincent needs to protect Ariel.

Whatever you do, it should feel right to the story you want to tell. If you imagine them happy, let them be happy. Use what you know about the characters and the situation to add tension or intrigue in a different way.


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## Ireth (Sep 29, 2012)

Ghost said:


> I don't see why you'd keep a scene you hate. You're the author. This isn't a collaboration between you and the beta readers. That page is the first impression a reader will get. It ought to be something you're proud of.



Very good point. 



Ghost said:


> Anyway, I remember the scene didn't pull me in because I didn't enjoy either character and I didn't feel any curiosity or urgency. I wasn't concerned with the what might happen to these people, nor was their world interesting to me based on that scene.



Yeah, I see what you're saying.



Ghost said:


> You might want to make a list of the things you love about the first version of the scene and a second list of the problems people had with the scenes. You don't have to do what others suggest, but if you can find where you're losing them you're better equipped to bridge the gap. (And if someone says, "Hm, why don't you make the daughter punch the dad?" it might actually translate to "Make _something_ happen.")



That's a good idea. I'll try that. ^^



Ghost said:


> Also, I think conflict and tension help, but conflict between Vincent and Ariel isn't necessary. They're the easiest to latch on to because they're the only people in the scene. Since it begins with Vincent, perhaps you can give him a small problem, something to react to. Maybe a trick-or-treater says his costume sucks or threatens to egg his house. Maybe work piled up and, now that Ariel's going out, candy duty distracts him. (When he finishes, he'd realize how late it is and worry about Ariel.) Maybe he could play a prank on a trick-or-treater. Show his personality. Allowing him to react or experience more emotions might draw people in.



I like those ideas. Not sure if Vincent is much of a prankster himself, but he'd definitely be pissed if someone tried to prank him maliciously. I'll play with that and see what develops.



Ghost said:


> I don't know these Marshall twins, but perhaps they could be the reason Ariel is going out on Halloween. Maybe they're younger and their parents wanted someone older to watch over them. Maybe their parents are protective of them and compromised by allowing them to go with Ariel. Of course, she wants to help her friends. Vincent and Ariel might talk about how the Marshall twins' parents want to protect them from witches or goblins and laugh it off. It could echo how Vincent needs to protect Ariel.



The Marshall twins are close to Ariel's age (16-17), and are her friends; plotwise they're basically there just so Ariel isn't completely on her own when she goes out, because that would be foolish with what she knows of the Fae. She does end up alone later on, purely for plot reasons, because the prince wouldn't kidnap her if she had others with her. He's arrogant and ambitious to a fault, but not an idiot.



Ghost said:


> Whatever you do, it should feel right to the story you want to tell. If you imagine them happy, let them be happy. Use what you know about the characters and the situation to add tension or intrigue in a different way.



*nodnod* I'll do that. Thanks for your help.


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## ThinkerX (Sep 29, 2012)

> When I pick up a book at a store, I do four things.
> 
> 1) Check Cover (I judge the hell out of covers)
> 2) Read back/dust jacket
> ...



This is pretty much what I do as well - though I do not place quite as much emphasis on the cover, or even the title.  But that's me - I've been around long enough, and read enough to realize the cover picture doesn't always reflect the content.

Second observation I feel obligated to make:  for me, the 'book store' is the book racks at the local Safeway, Wal*Mart, or a solitary independant book shop.  In all of those places, the fantasy / sf section is all of about four feet wide and six feet high (though there is an overflow bookcase at the bookshop proper).  Fully three out of five of the books on those racks are 'urban fantasy', usually featuring kickass female protagonists who are vampires, werewolves or wizardesses of some sort, or a more ordinary female with a fae, werewolf, or vampire connection.  I have been wondering for a while now if the market for these books is a bit...saturated.  If so, it is possible that submissions of similiar works from new authors might be more or less automatically rejected.


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## Kim (Sep 29, 2012)

I have read the opening scene. First thing I notice is that they seem to be smiling all the time, so that doesn't give a sence of something bad is going to happen.

But what I think might be the solution to your problem is the comment Vincent gives that he loves Halloween. If he knows that there is danger outside, he will not love this day. He might remember that there was a time when he loved it, but that was before something bad had happened (does that have something to do with her mother?). When Ariel comes down the stairs, he sees in her the excitement he once felt and for her, because he loves her, he pushes his feelings away and he wants her to have a great night. That he lets her go despite his own doubts is a great way to show the reader that he trusts his daughter.

You use the father as POV, so it will not be hard to put these emotions and memories in, giving this scene some edge without telling what is going to happen. Vincent wouldn't want to think to much about it.

I hope this helpes.


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## Ireth (Sep 29, 2012)

Kim said:


> I have read the opening scene. First thing I notice is that they seem to be smiling all the time, so that doesn't give a sence of something bad is going to happen.



Good point there.



Ghost said:


> But what I think might be the solution to your problem is the comment Vincent gives that he loves Halloween. If he knows that there is danger outside, he will not love this day. He might remember that there was a time when he loved it, but that was before something bad had happened (does that have something to do with her mother?).



Just because something is dangerous doesn't mean you can't love it. Look at Steve Irwin (R.I.P.) -- he spent his whole life around dangerous animals, and loved every minute. The fact that he died because of one wasn't even his fault, it was the cameraman's for spooking the stingray who stung him.

In an unrelated-to-WQ RP which also features the Hawks as main characters, they all still love dressing up for Halloween and having fun, despite the fact that Dunehelden (the school for supernaturals which Vincent and his brother Dom [there a mage and a lycanthrope, respectively] work at, and Ariel [still a normal girl] attends) is located in Faerie itself, and the Fae have actually attacked the school on Halloween night.

Halloween and the Fae also have nothing to do with the death of Ariel's mother; she died in late November, of complications from difficulty giving birth to Ariel. The fact that a Fae tried to kidnap baby Ariel moments after her mother's death is sheer bad luck.



Ghost said:


> When Ariel comes down the stairs, he sees in her the excitement he once felt and for her, because he loves her, he pushes his feelings away and he wants her to have a great night. That he lets her go despite his own doubts is a great way to show the reader that he trusts his daughter.
> 
> You use the father as POV, so it will not be hard to put these emotions and memories in, giving this scene some edge without telling what is going to happen. Vincent wouldn't want to think to much about it.



Excellent points! That'll help a lot, I think.



Ghost said:


> I hope this helpes.



It definitely does.  Thank you very much!


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## Kim (Sep 29, 2012)

I'm glad it helpes. 



Ireth said:


> Just because something is dangerous doesn't mean you can't love it.



You're absolutely right, but you have to ask yourself if it works in this story.


(Why am I called Ghost in the quotes?)


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## Ireth (Sep 29, 2012)

Kim said:


> (Why am I called Ghost in the quotes?)



I think that's an error on my part. I'll fix it. XD

EDIT: ...or not. Looks like my time limit for that post ran out. :/ Oh well, you know who you are. XD


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## Ghost (Sep 29, 2012)

For a moment, I thought there was another member named Ghost. 

Maybe you could look at the first pages of your favorite books, Ireth. See what it is that entices _you_ to read on and see if you can apply it to your own book.


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## Kim (Sep 30, 2012)

Don't worry about it, Ireth. I was just wondering what happened.


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## Rullenzar (Nov 30, 2012)

Hi, so I have read the first few paragraphs and I'm no professional but it doesn't hook me either. The scene itself is very nicely setup but it's something I feel may be better suited deeper into the story. A possible solution could be a dream your main character may have of better times when she feels lost and down. I can't think of anything else right now.

I've always been taught that the first paragraph of your story should be the hook. You need to create a paragraph that flows effortlessly and reads easy that not only sets up your setting but includes many little breadcrumbs that make the reader ask questions. It will take some time to get it just right and I highly recommend taking a look at other authors openers for a better understanding. You can see which authors pull you in with just one paragraph and which don't.

This is probably the hardest part for any writer new or experienced.


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## Ireth (Nov 30, 2012)

Rullenzar said:


> Hi, so I have read the first few paragraphs and I'm no professional but it doesn't hook me either. The scene itself is very nicely setup but it's something I feel may be better suited deeper into the story. A possible solution could be a dream your main character may have of better times when she feels lost and down. I can't think of anything else right now.
> 
> I've always been taught that the first paragraph of your story should be the hook. You need to create a paragraph that flows effortlessly and reads easy that not only sets up your setting but includes many little breadcrumbs that make the reader ask questions. It will take some time to get it just right and I highly recommend taking a look at other authors openers for a better understanding. You can see which authors pull you in with just one paragraph and which don't.
> 
> This is probably the hardest part for any writer new or experienced.



Thanks for your input. This is a very old version of the scene; I've done a fair bit of revision since, and will probably need to do more, but I'm liking it more all the time. You can see the revisions in the Showcase if you wish.


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