# Magic and Guns, How do you do it?



## osimur_wil (Aug 2, 2015)

Hey, all. I'm currently writing a setting for an RPG and I want to include both guns and magic. Sounds pretty simple, right? Well, I'm having a bit of a rough time making sure they're balanced so that guns aren't completely useless or make guns so powerful that it makes armor obsolete. 
I thought that making guns powered by compressed air, using low calibur bullets would be pretty good. But then it would make guns all but useless except for hunting and unarmored enemies. Then I thought to up the calibur size from .22 to .357, but .357 bullets can punch through steel armor. Add to the fact that magic takes longer to learn and takes incantations to perform; why would anyone use armor or magic when guns make both obsolete?
I feel like I hit a wall. How do you think I should go about balancing out guns and magic?


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## X Equestris (Aug 2, 2015)

How advanced are we talking about, exactly?  Plate armor lasted quite a while against firearms, as did bows.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Aug 2, 2015)

X Equestris said:


> How advanced are we talking about, exactly?  Plate armor lasted quite a while against firearms, as did bows.


That's right. Hundreds of years, in fact.

Also, the caliber of a bullet has nothing to do with it's penetration, even against steel. It's the speed primarily, then composition. Bullet weight (or grain) is another matter entirely, which has most to do with force of impact. So, a 5.56mm NATO round is 22 caliber. So is a 22 Swift, 22-250, 22 Long Rifle, and a number of others. None of those would have any issue penetrating a thin layer of steel. I know from experience. 

Hardened steel, like AR500 steel they use for metal shooting targets is a different story. However, that type would be far too heavy and thick to be worn as armor.

The gun powder age was a game changer because technology leveled the playing field. Where it used to take decades to train an archer or knight, now a simple farmhand with a couple months training could kill a warrior with a trigger pull. As firearm technology advanced, the separation between warrior and commoner shrank further.

Still, the span of years where firearms and melee weapons and armor shared the battlefield ranged for approximately 250 years. That is until the invention of the flintlock, where advancements improved reliability and increased effective ranges against plate out to 100 yards or more. Once rifling, velocities, & artillery technology improved, well, game over armored soldier (until the invention of the tank).

I'm currently writing a novel where these periods overlap. There's tons of directions you can go that make the conflict plausible. You just need to do some research, make wise choices, place limitations on magic and technology, and above all...be creative.


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## X Equestris (Aug 2, 2015)

The arquebus was probably the most common and effective firearm during the time when full steel plate armor was still used.  Perhaps looking at that and the tactics used with it could be helpful.  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus


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## osimur_wil (Aug 2, 2015)

It's a bit schizo-tech. While I do have knights on horses wielding swords, I also have steam powered power armor and locomotives, dwarves building replacement limbs, and the aforementioned guns. So, things are a bit wonky when it comes to that.


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## Feo Takahari (Aug 2, 2015)

If you've got guns and magic, then why not magic guns? A bit of enchantment may give them extra force or make their bullets seek enemies' hearts.


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## Kobun (Aug 2, 2015)

Or even guns BECAUSE of magic. Like, they were discovered through alchemy rather than chemistry.


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## osimur_wil (Aug 2, 2015)

Kobun said:


> Or even guns BECAUSE of magic. Like, they were discovered through alchemy rather than chemistry.



I never actually thought about that. Good idea, friend!


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## Reaver (Aug 2, 2015)

In my short story Respite, my MC used runic guns imbued with the souls of her dead parents. 

Please check it out. Mind you, that is a very early draft so it's a little bumpy.


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## Penpilot (Aug 2, 2015)

If you want to balance things out, first you have to figure out what limits a gun has against magic, and vice versa. What are the limits on magic? Once you understand those things in your world, you can figure out ways to balance the two. Maybe bullets can penetrate certain magical armor that would otherwise shrug off magic attacks, etc.


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## stephenspower (Aug 2, 2015)

Why not steam-powered guns?

I guess the question is, if stuff combusts in your world the way it does in ours, why couldn't gunpowder and magic co-exist? In fact, to T. Allen's point, you could focus on the push back from magicians against gunmakers whose projectiles are more penetrating than the arrows their spells can usually block. To take Kobun's point in a different direction, what if magic enhanced early weapons the way later ones would be, say, by making the bullets magically harder?


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## psychotick (Aug 2, 2015)

Hi,

You need to think about this a little differently. It's not about whether one gun and bullet / ball can overcome a man in armour or a wizard. It's about numbers. What if instead of worrying about the power of the weapon you worry about how good manufacturing is. 

I just put out the steampunk The Arcanist. My MC is a technologist mage. He makes and uses guns and fireballs. He also has a forerunner of the car. But what limits technology from overtaking magic is production. A few people on their own making weapons and preparing gun powder etc, aren't a threat to the world. To wizards in general. Or to armoured soldiers. It's armies powered up with thousands of guns and soldiers and cannons.

Also you can never under-estimate the power of magic. How much use would a man with a killer hand gun be against a wizard who can simply blink himself invisible? Or launch a fireball from somewhere well beyond the gun's accurate range?

Cheers, Greg.


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## osimur_wil (Aug 3, 2015)

Thank you for all the feedback, everyone. I think I've found a solution that will work well with my world. Guns are made in sparse numbers, being produced for military marksmen. Mages have developed spells to combat the power of the superior penetrating power of bullets, making suits of armor stronger through magic. Unprotected, guns can punch through steel plate and even the scales of young dragons. 
Thank you for all your feedback, it's been a big help.


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## ThinkerX (Aug 3, 2015)

Couple of fairly obvious (to me, anyhow) ideas.

1) Gun Control.  Authorities, out of self preservation are going to take a dim view of guns outside their direct control without good reason;

2) Gun Guild.  Only certain groups are allowed to manufacture guns.  Unauthorized gun manufacturers get shut down hard. 

This way, the advantage a gun gives in a fight is nearly equaled by the harassment  a gun possessor can expect from government or guild.  'Hmm...somebody used firearms here.  Lets take a look at the list and ask around.'

Now, if the gun wielders are sanctioned (soldiers, police, or some such), they are still accountable to internal discipline within those groups.  'Where were you last night and why is half your ammo missing?'

Head out into the wilderness?  Ammunition is finite.  Replacing it could be a serious pain.  Do you trust the homemade cartridges put together by that crazy hermit out of god-knows-what?


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## TWErvin2 (Aug 3, 2015)

Consider how commonplace a gun would be. How expensive and difficult to manufacture.

Yes, flintlocks with smoothbore barrels would be easier for a blacksmith to make, but also far less effective than say a muzzle-loading rifle on the mid to late 1800s. But still that's slow to fire and load compared to even a single action revolver. But each advancement is more complex to manufacture, and unless there's some form of mass production, if a part breaks, it'd have to be specially made.  That would be a limiting factor.

Then there's the manufacture of the gunpowder and/or the cartridges. Also a limiting factor.

Cannons would alter sieges of castles and other fortifications, and in some ways may be easier to create/forge than a smaller firearm. But again, the amount of gunpowder would be something to consider. Alchemists, for example, may know the formula, but might charge a high price to create it.

How effectively can a mounted knight in armor stand up to an accomplished magic user or sorcerer? Maybe not so well, depending on the circumstances. But does your world have legions of spellcasters marching into battle wielding fireballs and calling bolts of lighting from the sky? Or snapping bones from a distance with their spellcraft?  And even if so, there would be legions of those creating defensive wards...or creating magical wards on a warriors armor. Could not that warding harden armor or protect it from projectiles such as firearms?

Just a few thoughts to consider.


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## L M Rush (Aug 3, 2015)

I've always avoided going as far as guns when writing. Too scared of the conflict, I don't think I could mould it in well. Plus one of the things I love about history/fantasy worlds is the lack of guns. The talent and skill required by the warriors make for very interesting characters. No doubt you can create the same with guns etc, but personally the furthest my stories advance is cannons. No handguns. 

I do like some of the suggestions though, the main thing seemingly being how to not overpower your magic/guns whilst deciding on their common usage or rarity. Perhaps if so few could use guns, it would seem useful in a world full of bullyboy magicians thinking they are untouchable!


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## A'elie (Aug 3, 2015)

stephenspower said:


> Why not steam-powered guns?
> 
> I guess the question is, if stuff combusts in your world the way it does in ours, why couldn't gunpowder and magic co-exist? In fact, to T. Allen's point, you could focus on the push back from magicians against gunmakers whose projectiles are more penetrating than the arrows their spells can usually block. To take Kobun's point in a different direction, what if magic enhanced early weapons the way later ones would be, say, by making the bullets magically harder?



There are urban fantasy stories, that have modern weapons and magic melding together.

If you want an example, I can show you Arcanum


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## glutton (Aug 4, 2015)

Seems weird that guns would make magic obsolete, the magic would have to be pretty limited in both power and versatility for that I'd think.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Aug 4, 2015)

glutton said:


> Seems weird that guns would make magic obsolete, the magic would have to be pretty limited in both power and versatility for that I'd think.


Limited, or dealing with the world and enemies in a completely different manner than the brute force of a bullet. That's how I'm doing it in my WIP. Magic is subtle, not overt like a firearm, but no less powerful in its own way.


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## TWErvin2 (Aug 4, 2015)

glutton said:


> Seems weird that guns would make magic obsolete, the magic would have to be pretty limited in both power and versatility for that I'd think.



In my _First Civilization's Legacy Series_, magic vs. technology (basically WW II era and also late 1860s era) is one of the main elements in a conflict/war.  You have dragons vs. Stukas, Earth wizards and their magic pitted against Panzers. Think WW I era chemical warfare and how magic would counter that. Ogres and giants and zombies and more, like magical healing are in the mix. You have one faction that can in essence nullify magic, and are largely immune to its direct effects, but that has it's drawbacks.

What I'm indicating based upon my experience, is that firearms and magic can exist and can be part of the world created and a conflict, considering that there might be a lot of complex, moving parts. It's all up to your imagination.

Maybe in the end, one will come to dominate. Firearms triumph over magic use, simply by attrition. It takes too long to train, or there are too few able to cast powerful spells. Or the smiths and manufacturing centers where firearms are engineered and built are destroyed by the magic and all those with the knowledge of such firearms and weaponry are wiped out...or somewhere in between. 

Maybe one side decides to incorporate both technology and magic? There is ample opportunity for so many storylines and directions.

Harry Turtledove created a fantasy series (see *Into the Darkness*) that used WW II and the powers engaged in the world wide struggle as a template, but magic was used instead of tanks or guns or bombs. Dragons dropping explosive 'eggs' created by spellcasters. Large beasts with heavy magical beam weapons as tanks, etc.  There are so many plausible directions it can go.


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## glutton (Aug 4, 2015)

With the 'guns making magic obsolete' comment I was thinking more about the varied uses of magic as compared to guns moreso than whether a side using guns or magic would win in a war, I wouldn't think that guns alone would make possible effects such as mind control, flight, invisibility, teleportation, phasing through solid objects, shields, shapeshifting, increasing your physical attributes, matter/energy manipulation, healing, etc. obsolete. Especially since the TS didn't seem to be talking about technology in general but specifically guns.

So if magic can't do anything like that and can only shoot less potent blasts than guns for example, I would think of magic in that world as being relatively limited.


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## Kobun (Aug 4, 2015)

Guns as a populist tool to equalize engagements with the elitist magic wielders seems more likely to me, but obsolete...? I'm not so sure. When compared with the already existing versatility of war mages, given the clumsiness of early firearms attempts people inventing guns might question the practicality of exploring that line of technology.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Aug 4, 2015)

Firearms could be more limited than magic, supposing that magic is real. 

Firearms can do a few things: 
1) Shoot in a straight line, requiring line of sight.
2) Projectile hits with incredible speed and destructive power. 
3) When ammo runs out, use the firearm as club or spear (bayonet).  

That's it unless you're talking about more modern weapons & munitions.   

I can think of hundreds of ways magic could exceed the limitations of firearms. The important thing to understand is that with firearms (by themselves) you're limited by expectations grounded in reality...physical laws. With magic you're not. You set the limitations. Placing limitations on magic is an important aspect of world building, but the possibilities are limited only by your imagination.


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## X Equestris (Aug 4, 2015)

It's also worth mentioning that a lot of gunpowder weapons could be hampered by wet powder.  Quite a few battles throughout history, all the way up to at least the Battle of Honey Springs in the American Civil War, were lost because one side got their gunpowder soaked.


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## wordwalker (Aug 8, 2015)

Another thing is, what are the mages going to do when guns start to appear? I can think of some really useful spells, that a combat-minded mage might work on perfecting, preparing a battlefield with, or practicing to cast at high speed:

high-powered: stopping bullets (it might work best if it's specialized)
complex: illusions and suggestions to make the shooter waste his shot, not see the enemy closing in, or even fire at his friends
efficient: jamming the gun-- just twist or lock a bit of metal, or turn the powder inert
ruthless: detonating the gunpowder-- ooops!
simple: raise a mist over the battlefield

Then you could have mages on the other side trying to deflect that, and gunfighters of your own ready to take advantage of your spell: you distract or block their shooters for just the right moment, and yours rush in for the kill.

I always think of technology as having more hair-trigger power ready, so its power actually gets used at full strength, plus it might (or might not) be able to mass-produce that so there's a _lot_ of guns for every wizard. The flip side of that is that it needs every piece of those machines and their supply lines working, and may not have any other uses until the inventors come up with them; wizards tend to have more ways of finding what's a weak link and using it.


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