# GoT and ASoIaF Discussion Thread [SPOILER-FEST - READERS ONLY]



## Legendary Sidekick

This is the readers-only GoT thread. You can compare the book and the show with impunity. You can speculate on ANYTHING that's come up in the five books whether it aired on the show yet or not. You can even speculate as to whether something on the show–such os Jojen Reed's season 4 death–are likely book 6 spoilers.

You can wait for tonight's episode to air and post your reactions, or you can even speculate on what will air if you want.


----------



## Bluesboy

I think Dany will get the Iron Throne in the end, possibly marrying the fake Aegon to forever unite the legitimate and the illigetimate branches of the House Targaryen. The marriage, I admit, is just a bleak possibility, but I think we're heading to Dany conquering Westeros.

Why do I think so? Because Dany conquering the Seven Kingdoms would fit perfectly into GRRM's style. If Dany indeed gets the Iron Throne in the end, it would be like a slap in the face to all that has happened since her father's death. That all the suffering, all the wars and deaths and plots and ruthlessness was for nothing, because after an almost two-decade break from the Targaryens, the last person of that House is back on the throne. 

Kind of like the French Revolution. They threw down the absolute monarchy, only to have 10 years of terror raining down upon the citizens, terror caused by their elected government, beheadings on daily agenda and all that, only to have Napoleon step in and crown himself ceasar. They basically got rid of kings, brought the country into chaos by proving they weren't mature enough to rule themselves, only to get an absolutist ceasar. And all that suffering in those 10 years was basically for nothing.

Full circle. And I think that kind of thing is GRRM's style. ASOIAF is heavily inspired by history, and this sort of thing happens in history a lot. Even English had their abolition of monarchy only to establish it once more. Rome went through a period of kings, then they had a republic for 500 years only for Augustus to take his step-father's name to create the title and office of ceasar - becoming a proper wee dictator. 

But I think the fake Aegon marriage to Dany may be just a bleak possibility, because that would bring a kind of poetic symmetry that is too good to be true for the "bitter-sweet" ending GRRM promises. At the end of the 5th book Dany embraces the Targaryen words "Fire and Blood" and realises she's not a peace-maker as she tried to be in Meereen, she is a dragon, she is a conqueror who doesn't compromise. Either way, marrying or killing the fake Aegon will bring an end to the whole Blackfyre-wanting-the-ugly-chair thing.


----------



## stephenspower

Nah, Jon Snow will get the throne after killing Jaime and Aegon, although who knows how long he'll hold it. But the real battle is the one that gives the series its name: Melisandre versus the White Walkers. I think the wall will come down.


----------



## BronzeOracle

Fire and Ice could mean the dragons and the white walkers.  They are the two 'edges' of fantasy that border the political conflict of the show.  Melisandre's sect is another but I think its minor.  Confession - I'm a keen watcher of the show but haven't read the books.

To me the show has focused on the instability of Westeros because no one family is strong enough to hold the power - the disunity is causing all sorts of trouble and I was envisaging that in the end there would be unity, though not through peaceful means.  In the past the Targaryens could hold Westeros because their dragons gave them military supremacy - once the dragons died out it was a matter of time before the squabbling broke out.  The inbreeding/mad Aerys just sped events up.

Now that Dany has her dragons its all changed - she stands a chance of uniting Westeros and it helps that she has her head on her shoulders and critically has some decent advisors (fist pump Tyrion).  I suspect her path to unifying Westeros may well be full of twists and turns and blood and gore but it would be a 'clean' ending.  Then again if GRRM is pursuing a statement on European history then perhaps Dany falls flat on her face and the instability goes on and on - but GRRM has introduced the fantasy elements which to me suggest that the ending will go beyond a historical allegory.

What do you think: is Jon Snow really a Targaryen (no white hair but white dire wolf??) and could he end up marrying Dany?  More inbreeding but they are the protagonists at the fantasy edges of the story.


----------



## stephenspower

I've heard the rumors of Jon Snow's parentage, but your bring up a good point re his hair. I wonder if he's Robert's bastard.


----------



## X Equestris

stephenspower said:


> I've heard the rumors of Jon Snow's parentage, but your bring up a good point re his hair. I wonder if he's Robert's bastard.



My bet is that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyana Stark.  A lot of the little hints seem to point towards that being the case.  Also, some possible subtext from that lore book that got released recently mentions a marriage alliance between the Starks and the Targaryens in the distant past.  And that pact was known as the Pact of Ice and Fire.


----------



## stephenspower

Yes, that's probably right, and I didn't remember that about the pact. Nonetheless, that's gotten so much currency, now I'm hoping it's something different. It would make the slaughter of all Robert's other bastards important because no one but Jon Snow, if he's still alive, would be left to contest his claim.


----------



## Maximillian_dErembourg

Well...this is supposed to be a zone that's OK for spoilers...am I right???

It's just...seems many of you have not read to the end of Book Five yet...that's all I'll say, for now anyway. =}

Max


----------



## X Equestris

Maximillian_dErembourg said:


> Well...this is supposed to be a zone that's OK for spoilers...am I right???
> 
> It's just...seems many of you have not read to the end of Book Five yet...that's all I'll say, for now anyway. =}
> 
> Max



It's not explicit.  It suggests something, but it doesn't confirm it.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

Maximillian_dErembourg said:


> Well...this is supposed to be a zone that's OK for spoilers...am I right???
> 
> It's just...seems many of you have not read to the end of Book Five yet...that's all I'll say, for now anyway. =}
> 
> Max


Yeah, I have the concern not everyone here read book five, but I did open the thread with a warning which includes these words:


> You can speculate on ANYTHING that's come up in the five books whether it aired on the show yet or not.


So, have at it, Max. Everyone's been warned.

If you're really worried, you can use a spoiler tag, but I call it SPOILER-FEST as if to imply clicking on this thread is like opening a giant spoiler tag. With sharp, spoily teeth and a spoily, green wart on its nose.



Having said that, I'm gonna be the jerk to spoil stuff. With no tags!

(That's your cue to run screaming if you didn't read book 5.)

So, my wife didn't read the books. She didn't notice Tormund's face as Mance was burning. I thought the actor did a good job showing an expression of guilt over the burning. I told my wife about the skin-changing magic, and now I'm wondering if Arya's training at the House of Black and White will tie in with Jon meeting Mance later on.


----------



## Incanus

X Equestris said:


> It's not explicit.  It suggests something, but it doesn't confirm it.



That's right.  And the Red Woman is near at hand...


----------



## Bluesboy

Maximillian_dErembourg said:


> It's just...seems many of you have not read to the end of Book Five yet...that's all I'll say, for now anyway. =}



Please, those of you who watch the show, know that this storyline is completly cut out of the TV version and thus you have nothing of value to say. This thread is for the book wankers.

The Varys' monologue you're speaking of is a very well crafted one. He doesn't say that Aegon is the real deal, he just says he is more worthy of the throne, because he was educated on how to rule and that he doesn't consider the Iron Throne his birthright, but a duty towards his people. While there is only a limited number of people who can consider the Iron Throne their birthright, there is a lot of people who are more worthy of it in terms of their intellect and ability to rule. 

Throughout the fifth book, there are numerous hints that strongly suggest that Aegon is not the real Targaryen, but rather, a Blackfyre pretender. In this fan theory, Varys is the last male of the Blackfyre line, but cannot claim the Iron Throne for himself because of the eunuch thingy. His eye colour is never described in the books, so we don't know whether he's got the typical purple eyes of the Targaryens. The fact that GRRM mentions eye colours for almost all the characters, this omition is a rather telling one. Since he shaves his head, no one knows whether he's got the silvery-golden hair of Targaryens either. 

Illyrio is supposedly his brother-in-law, once being married to Varys' sister, having a boy who was named Aegon. Illyrio tells Tyrion that the Golden Company is going to help the boy, yet the Golden Company has no interest in helping the real Targaryens. It was founded by a Blackfyre pretender to put a Blackfyre male on the Iron Throne. They turned down young Viserys when he travelled around the Free Cities, yet now would support Viserys' nephew (Aegon)? Unlikely. Tyrion himself is skeptical throughout the fifth book about the boy's identity.

Tyrion is puzzled by why the Golden Company would support a boy who has insufficient gold to pay them, to which Illyrio only says that "Some contracts are writ in ink, and some in blood. I say no more." The Golden Company has a history of _never_ breaking a contract and they will never do so _until_ they find a Blackfyre male to put on the Iron Throne and despite having a contract in Essos in the fifth book, they break it to sail to Westeros with the boy. 

Illyrio and Varys hoped the boy would marry Daenerys, which would give them dragons and Aegon would gain legitimacy in the eyes of people of Westeros, because everyone thinks the boy is dead and if Daenerys, about whom everyone knows _is_ the real deal, her approval of the boy would give him that legitimacy. 

Personally, I believe this theory. I think it's a strong one. It follows that pattern GRRM has about three steps revelation of certain things. The first step was in the fourth book where you have that Septon in the Trident area telling Brienne and Pod about a tavern the owner of which had a large black metal dragon hung outside the inn. During some Blackfyre rebellion, the black metal dragon offended the ruling Targaryen king, because _black_ dragon on a field of red is the sigil of House Blackfyre. The owner of the inn threw the metal dragon into the nearby river and _years later_, the dragon was washed up on the shore of the Quiet Isle, _red_ with rust. If Aegon indeed turns out to be a Blackfyre (_black_ dragon), _years later_ he is presented as a Targaryen (_red_ dragon). The first step in GRRM's revelation habit is always the hardest to spot and usually comes to slap you in the face during a reread.

The second step is usually more obvious, but still subtle. The Golden Company sailing off with the boy is, I think, a pretty strong indication that the boy is not a real Targaryen. The third step will be spelling it out to everyone in a broad day light. The Winds of Winter can't come soon enough


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

Brienne and Pod are taking a very different route in the show than they did in the book.

Normally, I'm the guy who says WTF that's not how the story goes, but for some reason—either because I'm a Brienne fan or because I've accepted that the show is different—I'm just enjoying Brienne's sword slashing bellies and piercing throats. In the book, I liked how she cried after her first time killing men, but that scene already happened in season 2 of the show. (The tears were more for Renly than having killed.)

The only deviations I still don't like are character combos that redefine existing characters. Mrs. Viper was against revenge, and now she's for killing a kid. So I guess she's all of the sand snakes at once. A minor character, but it does save the trouble of introducing a bunch of characters, so the deviation makes sense. It was just a WTF moment for me (followed by near-immediate acceptance). It didn't piss me off as much as Dario absorbing Strong Balwas. But then, I hate Dario, so maybe if he's puking on poison at the pit fights I'll feel a little satisfaction.


----------



## Lunaairis

I'm kind of hoping that the Jon Snow incident in book five isn't the end of him. If it is, I'd feel like his story line didn't amount to much and would likely be the weakest POV in the series.


----------



## Bluesboy

Arya, Tyrion, Jon Snow, Daenerys, and Bran, I think, the only main characters who should survive through it all to the very end, though I don't know whether some of them will die in the end. At least that much was in GRRM's leaked pitch letter he gave to his agent to offer the series to publishers. Many things have changed, but many have stayed and so it's possible those 5 will indeed survive to the end, but may die at the end.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

I consider them "safe" in a series in which no one is safe. (Well, someone is safe, of course. But only GRRM really knows who. And maybe Mrs. M and a select few others.)

Brienne's the one I enjoy rooting for because she's not "safe." I'd like to think of her as potential Queensguard if she makes it to the end. I'd also like to think she didn't betray Jaime, but… book 6 or season 6 might answer that.


----------



## Lunaairis

Yeah I always thought of them as the 'safe' ones too. I really liked Brienne as well, I really just want to see them all meet up.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

I understand the reason was to shorten the scene, but I was disappointed with the Slynt beheading. It was one of the more memorable moments from Book 5 when Snow changed his mind about having Slynt executed. I loved the moment--"This is a mistake," Janos' smirk, the men questioning Jon's leadership--then Jon takes the sword out, following his late father's example by carrying out the execution himself. The chapter ending with a man saying "I want his boots" cracked me up.

I know--changes for the screen, can't get every book moment in the show--but this was one of the scenes I was looking forward to, and it kind of fell flat with me. The price of being a book wanker, I guess.



But what about Sansa marrying the Bolton Bastard? Anyone find that to be an odd deviation? Ramsey has his way with the poor girl he married in the book, and he hurt her. I'd like to think Sansa won't lose her virginity to him of all people.

Speaking of which... Tommen consummating his wedding was a change that totally made sense since the actor is much older than 8. I guess Cersei would simply convince the High Sparrow to question Margerie's fidelity rather than her virginity.


----------



## ThinkerX

Going from a few You-Tube snippets, it seems to me like the current season is blasting through books four and five at top speed.  I mean...Tyrion kidnapped already?  At this rate he'll be in Merleen within another couple of episodes.

And the bit with Sansa getting married to Bolton's Bastard really deviates from the books.  More dramatic as well, and in my view, more in keeping with Littlefinger's nature.  There is the small problem of Sansa still being technically married to Tyrion, though.  

Brienne and Pod also seem to be taking a different trajectory.

To me, it looks like Volantis got short shrift on the screen.  More's the pity.  Also, 'fake' Aegon hasn't made an appearance.  Same with 'Griff'.  Are they even going to be in the television series?  

Nothing yet on a Dornish prince heading off to Merleen and getting himself killed.  Wonder if that got nixed.

Hopefully, we still get a giant fleet of Ironborn dropping anchor off Merleen by seasons end.  

Yeah, I know, cast of hundreds, can't include them all, but still...


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

Lunaairis said:


> I'm kind of hoping that the Jon Snow incident in book five isn't the end of him. If it is, I'd feel like his story line didn't amount to much and would likely be the weakest POV in the series.



Thoros of Myr resurrects Beric DonDarrion early on in the series for a reason, and it's not just to set up Cat's rebirth as Lady Stoneheart. 

Thoros is a priest of R'hllor, same Melisandre, the Red Woman. I'll be shocked if Jon isn't resurrected, and in doing so, released from his vow to the Night's Watch... they serve until death. Jon's death was likely orchestrated by Stannis to get what he wants, the North.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

ThinkerX said:


> There is the small problem of Sansa still being technically married to Tyrion, though.


The wedding was never consummated though....



ThinkerX said:


> Hopefully, we still get a giant fleet of Ironborn dropping anchor off Merleen by seasons end.
> 
> Yeah, I know, cast of hundreds, can't include them all, but still...


Yes! Looking forward to seeing Victarion Greyjoy!


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

So, I don't know about the rest of you book wankers, but… holy shit.

I used to be in the It Must Be Like The Book camp. Now I'm like, okay show, surprise me if you want.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

Well, thanks a lot HBO. Maybe that ending is symbolic of all the WTF-ish deviations, like Sansa's the plot in the book and Ramsey is the HBO writers. I'm Theon.

So… that ending was a real downer, but I think the reason for the queen getting arrested is a stupid change. Her virginity being in question made more sense because, well, it's possible she really was a virgin, hence her innocence. Now in the show she's imprisoned for bearing false witness, and she's actually guilty of that. So, WTF?

Seriously, I started this season telling myself it's wrong to be a purist book wanker, just accept the changes. Only… I don't get it. The whole story's written for you already. Why change stuff and eff up the story? Is it me, or do the changes–at least some of them–create plot holes that the show writers can't dig their way out of, so they deviate even further from the book.

What's Dany doing? No time for that! We have to explain how Jamie and Bronn face the sand snakes without any of them ending up dead. Guy-who-married-his-axe to the rescue! So what's the point of Jamie's venture? Well… I guess, being a book wanker, I know he technically saved his daughter's ear.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

Legendary Sidekick said:


> I used to be in the It Must Be Like The Book camp. Now I'm like, okay show, surprise me if you want.


Oh, shut up, me.


----------



## ThinkerX

I'm going from little snippets posted to You-Tube, but...

...a lot of the changes make for a better story.  Fake Ayra in fake marriage to murderous nut job is one thing.  Real Sansa in same marriage is something else, more immediate.  

Jamie trying to directly rescue his daughter while learning how to fight with an artificial hand is more dramatic than the succession of White Cloaks sent Dorne's way.  

And Tormund insisting that Jon take a direct hand in rescuing the wildlings is more dramatic, story wise, than in the books.

That said...I dislike the way fake Aegon got cut from the movies.  Dropping the Dornish prince all set to marry Dany - the one roasted by dragonfire in the books - is a bit more problematic.  I mean, in the books, the guy basically accomplished two things: getting himself killed and making an alliance between Dany and Dorne problematic, and releasing the dragons.  Almost a waste.

The bit I'm hoping doesn't get cut from the movies is a great big fleet of ticked off Iron Born showing up off Merleen.

At this point, I'm tending towards the thought of the TV series being the draft Martin should have wrote.  A new and improved edition.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

Interesting perspective, X.

Well, I have to admit, I like the Brienne and Jaime changes most. I hate seeing Sansa in Jeyne Pool's position, but you know something? Yes, it is better storytelling. I actually care more about Sansa than the fake Arya.

I'm still not sold on all of the changes, but I suppose it's better to accept them since the HBO version of the story may be the only one that ends. I definitely miss the stupid prince getting roasted by dragons, and the pit fight won't be the same without Strong Balwas or that woman who takes on the boar. (I felt so bad for her, but it was one of my favorite scenes. I ended up re-reading the pit fight right away, it was so awesome.)


----------



## StoryTypewriter

X Equestris said:


> My bet is that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyana Stark.  A lot of the little hints seem to point towards that being the case.  Also, some possible subtext from that lore book that got released recently mentions a marriage alliance between the Starks and the Targaryens in the distant past.  And that pact was known as the Pact of Ice and Fire.



Wow, really? I remember at some point in the books that there was a very vague explanation in the form of Ned Stark thoughts going back to it probably when he was in prison regreting never telling Jon Snow about his origins. Didn't he had an affair with a noble lady from a faraway land? 

Where did you find hints that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyana Stark?

Just looking around quickly, I found in AGoT:

_a) CATELYN: " Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. "

b) EDDARD: "“You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time . . . what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was . . . Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?” 

“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”
“Wylla. Yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like . . . ” 

Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Ctelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”_


----------



## StoryTypewriter

Legendary Sidekick said:


> So, I don't know about the rest of you book wankers, but… holy shit.
> 
> I used to be in the It Must Be Like The Book camp. Now I'm like, okay show, surprise me if you want.



I agree with you Legendary Sidekick. It actually caught me by surprise, I was like wait a minute... Sansa never gets to marry Ramsey... and at least not that I remembered.

I have come to the conclusion that George R. R. Martin has been given the chance of a lifetime. To be able to re-write and polish his own story in the process to bring it to the screen. He appears in the show's writing credits for a reason. I think it is a smart move and I am enjoying the ride.

Yes, Sansa gets it rough... but she has her lady-knight in shining armour at the castle doors waiting for sign to rescue her... then Sam the Slayer finally gets the girl... and the Jamie-Bronn combo works wonders. And Tyrion gets to Dani Targaryen right away. Who knows... maybe the author feels generous and gives us additional information that doesn't appear in the books sush as Jon Snow parents or the arrival of Dani to Westeros. 

What I can't wait to see in the show is the Iron Born's reunion with all the ships... if they do everything right, could be worth watching. It is one of the parts that I am missing as well as the prince of Dorne getting roasted by a dragon... and what about Dani been taking away by Drogon to who knows where after the mess at the fighting pit? Anyway, so much improved and so much missing.


----------



## X Equestris

StoryTypewriter said:


> Wow, really? I remember at some point in the books that there was a very vague explanation in the form of Ned Stark thoughts going back to it probably when he was in prison regreting never telling Jon Snow about his origins. Didn't he had an affair with a noble lady from a faraway land?
> 
> Where did you find hints that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyana Stark?
> 
> Just looking around quickly, I found in AGoT:
> 
> _a) CATELYN: " Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. "
> 
> b) EDDARD: "“You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time . . . what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was . . . Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”
> 
> “Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”
> “Wylla. Yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like . . . ”
> 
> Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”_



I'll see I i can find a page listing some stuff.  There are a lot of little things, though.


----------



## X Equestris

Here we go:

Jon Snow/Theories - A Wiki of Ice and Fire - A Song of Ice and Fire & Game of Thrones


----------



## StoryTypewriter

Great link! Thanks for posting X Equestris


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

So, without Strong Belwas to eat the chocolate roaches (or whatever they were), I wonder who'll be in his place—Tyrion or Dario?


----------



## ascanius

OK so.. I've been stewing over this for a while.  Does anyone else have a problem with Sansa and the sadistic Ramsay bolton wedding night.  Frankly that whole scene really pissed me off, not to mention their marriage.  None of it was in the books which really irks me.  I think the way it's done in the books is much better it gives another level of sadistic perversion to Ramsay without showing it (that whole creepy part where Jeyne Poole mentions the dog).  I was shocked when I read that because well... it's really shocking to learn just how screwed up he is, it added another level if you will.  This...this doesn't really add anything to Ramsy we already know he has no problem with violence and rape.  It isn't even like with Cersei and Jamie where the whole interaction was complex and questionable....  This...I just don't get it.  The other thing I'm having trouble with is Sansa going from a very naive and frankly incapable person to suddenly deciding to subvert the Boltons from the inside in the span of a few episodes without really demonstrating her taking the initiative anywhere else.  Did she wake up one morning and suddenly decide to avenger her family and be a hero...no wait she did exactly that.  It doesn't make sense.  I didn't agree with a lot of the criticism with the whole Cersei and Jamie encounter but this I agree with a lot of the criticism I have read.

In the books it was from Reeks POV but in the show it's from Reeks, Sansa's?  It goes back and forth, and like at the last minute it switches to Reek?  WTF.  I mean if your going to show something like that show it and give it the attention it deserves.  It's like the writers got the willies at the last minute so decided to show Reek crying?  I get that it's painful for him too but it kinda pushes Sansa to the background, who is ALSO a POV character.  Maybe they could have split it up better you know give Sansa her due first then switch to reek so as not to diminish the trauma Sansa is enduring.

I don't know the show is pushing it for me right now.  I really really hate admitting this and I feel horrible but I think some small part of my anger stems from this happening to Sansa, who is a POV character.  When it was Jeyne Poole it was removed enough that it was readable, this is much closer to home and I think they didn't drop the ball, they completely lost it.

If they keep going down this road I think they need to do a better job.


----------



## stephenspower

Everything about that scene was wrong. Maybe it made sense on paper, given how they were changing the books. Maybe it felt necessary as a first towards turning Reek back into Theon and against Ramsey. Maybe it even felt literary, showing Sansa's agony in Theon's tears. But come on. The minute they were on set someone should have said, This won't just be horrible to watch. It's lazy writing. There are more interesting, original and subtle ways to do this. In fact, Sansa's first scene in the next episode was better, if not more cliched. The best way to show violence is through the response to it and its effect, not through the act itself.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

@ascanius, I really hated that episode because of the ending. Here were my feelings just after viewing:


> Well, thanks a lot HBO. Maybe that ending is symbolic of all the WTF-ish deviations, like Sansa's the plot in the book and Ramsey is the HBO writers. I'm Theon.


----------



## Ophiucha

Well, Stannis' entire character arc was just destroyed, trampled upon, salted, and burned on a pyre built from torn-out pages of hundreds of copies of _Winds of Winters_, each printed with the quote: "— you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt." But I still hate this less than what they've done with Sansa, so I can't say I'm even all that mad.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

Yeah, that Stannis arc was total BS, especially about the story about him refusing to let her die of grayscale. The departure from the book in the arena was a fun one, and I was able to enjoy it. But the WTF moment of the girl burning and my lack of anger was the result of me not taking the writers of the show seriously at this point.

I seriously felt nothing for the character because the burning was a total immersion-breaker, and now I've come to expect nonsensical plot devices meant to shock.


----------



## StoryTypewriter

I was quized at Ophiucha until I what the episode. Absolutely ridiculuos... thank God for the writer that put the hand up so Arya wouldn't be raped already. Agreed with Legendary... non sense WTF moment with Stanis daughter. It is not funny anymore. Tyrion and the dragon really saved the day, best scene of the season!


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

GoT has taken a frustrating turn this season. We have what... 3 deaths that didn't happen in the book now? Ser Barristan, Princess Shireen, and Dany's Jackass Husband Who Nobody Cares About. Sansa and Stannis have crappy character arcs now. Sansa will bounce back, but Stannis is just a total dick. And why the hell does Ramsey's silly plan work? 20 guys just waltz into enemy camp and it's all _buh? wha? many fires?_ And if Stannis knew there were 20 guys, unless they counted Ramsey & Co. as they ran off... well, as I said, I have a hard time taking the writers seriously as this point.

Yeah, I can recognize _some_ improvements. Brienne isn't scouring the globe just to end up betrayed by Zombie Catelyn. Jaime doesn't get betrayed by Brienne, or maybe she doesn't betray him, hopefully book 6 will clarify that one. Gilly not being shipped off with the wrong kid... yeah, that's cool, as was Jon's fight up north. This week's and last week's episodes both ended in awesomeness.

But... I think the HBO writers need someone who's willing to say, "Yeah, most successful thing on TV over the past 5 years, but your shit still stinks. This scene is crap; don't do it." This season's been a mixed bag of boring, WTF, just okay, and awesomeness. It's not that they deviated so far from the book that bothers me, but that enough deviations were done badly that I wonder if the success just went to their heads. "We made so much we can build a mansion out of gold-plated $100 bills! This season, let's just be shocking." Maybe for the finale, they'll just zoom in on a penis for ten straight minutes because shocking.


----------



## SeverinR

The last part does sum up this season so far.
(Not a part of this thread, only read to middle of book 2)


----------



## stephenspower

I don't have a problem with deaths happening on the show that didn't happen in the book. GRRM himself wondered about this and asked the showrunners why. They explained that GRRM introduces lots of characters, and these characters are played by actors, who sensibly wish to be paid. The show's budget, however, is unlimited, so when new characters arise others must fall.


----------



## StoryTypewriter

stephenspower said:


> I don't have a problem with deaths happening on the show that didn't happen in the book. GRRM himself wondered about this and asked the showrunners why. They explained that GRRM introduces lots of characters, and these characters are played by actors, who sensibly wish to be paid. The show's budget, however, is unlimited, so when new characters arise others must fall.


It sounds like a pretty poor excuse. If HBO signs to convert to TV, a lengthy series of books, they should be able to keep it as close as possible. Maybe use less extras or get rid of nobody-cares secondary characters... surely there must be a better way!

Sent from my SM-G360G using Tapatalk


----------



## stephenspower

A show's a show and a book's a book. They have different demands. And what's so much fun about seeing an exact replica? I love _Watchmen_, but the movie left me cold because there was nothing new, nothing interesting, just the comic in motion. On top of that, trying to replicate the scale of the books would require 40-episode seasons. It's not like Shireen's going to live through the next book anyway.


----------



## Ophiucha

I don't necessarily mind changes, but Shireen's death was very undeserved and poorly written. It could work in the books, and since I think that is a very natural way to send Stannis past the point of no return, I suspect it will. But not because of Ramsay Snow or the battle for Winterfell. I see it as something that is a dire necessity, and further, something I can only see Stannis doing once he's at the brink of desperation or madness. I want it to be him at the Wall and see the Others and realize that they truly need the full power of the Lord of Light. Have Melisandre tell him that he could have that power if he makes the ultimate sacrifice, and make it clear that for some people that would be their life but for him, a man who loves his daughter so deeply that he would readily sacrifice himself to see her on the Iron Throne, that the ultimate sacrifice is Shireen. A sacrifice for Westeros.

Or at the very least, the writers could have made it a trade - put Melisandre in danger, have her on her deathbed, and she says "a life for a life" and he makes the final turn away from his values and fully commits himself to her by giving up the only thing he cared about more than her this whole time. Something like this has to be a turning point for the character, but here it's just a bit contradictory and like 'well, guess he really is just an asshole then'.

Also, I doubt a child actress who only appears in a couple of episodes a season for 5 minutes was really digging into their budget.


----------



## X Equestris

Supposedly Martin has said this will happen in the books.  In a different manner, obviously, but it will according to what I'm hearing.


----------



## Mindfire

Yup.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/38z6uk/spoilers_all_psa_it_was_george_rr_martins_idea/


----------



## stephenspower

And in the books Stannis has been burning people for the Lord of Light all along, plus he's tried to kill two of Robt's heirs for Melisandre. The books build to Shireen's burning whereas on the show it's made into a manipulative cheat--but not as bad as Meryn the pedophile or Sansa's rape, both of which were totally gratuitous.


----------



## Mindfire

stephenspower said:


> And in the books Stannis has been burning people for the Lord of Light all along, plus he's tried to kill two of Robt's heirs for Melisandre.



And of course we've never seen him do horrible things at her behest in the show. /sarcasm

They've been building up to this the whole time.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

Ophiucha said:


> I don't necessarily mind changes, but ... poorly written.


This is where I am on changes. In fact, if you go back somewhere in this thread I'm like, "Yeah! Embrace the change!" and that was after killing off Ser Barristan. Then there was Sansa's inevitable wedding night, and yeah, it wasn't out of character for Ramsey. I tried not to hate that one, I really did. I thought, well, okay, so Jeyne Poole is just another victim but Sansa... we watched her grow up.

The Shireen death was a good scene as far as acting goes. I do admire that little girl for how she portrayed the character. That's really why I think this change was the worst yet. I felt nothing for the little girl screaming as she dies painfully. I was pulled out with a "Really? Ramsey comes up with a plan that's implausible for even a roadrunner cartoon, it actually works, and Stannis just breaks. Kill my daughter." Why doesn't Stannis just do this:

*STANNIS*: Hey, you know those twenty guys that someone must've seen because otherwise how would I know there are twenty of them? Let's follow them to Winterfell, since it's apparently very easy to travel to Winterfell from here.
*MELISANDRE*: Are you sure you don't want to try that burn your daughter thing? It sure would be shocking after you told her how you wouldn't give up on her.
*STANNIS*: I need another season or two to consider that. Well... I don't know, I'm just a military commander going after the throne as is my birthright, so maybe I'm oversimplifying things. I was just, I just, uh... *squeaky voice*
*MELISANDRE*: Should I show you a boob or...?
*STANNIS*: No! No... I'm good. *ahem* I was just thinking maybe Ramsey and the other nineteen guys left footprints, and we could follow them to Winterfell.
*MELISANDRE*: Right! Because in the book nobody knew where the hell we were and that's why we were all freezing and starving. But if twenty guys could easy find us, then Winterfell must be--
*STANNIS & MELISANDRE*: --right ****ing there!

_Both are pointing to a path made of twenty sets of footprints as they speak. When they stop speaking, they kiss. Melisandre starts to undo her robe, but Stannis steps back wagging his finger, a military hand signal meaning "tsk, tsk."_

*STANNIS*: Now is not the time for boobs. Now is the time for action! Non-sex-scene action! Davos!
*DAVOS*: Yes, your Truekingness!
*STANNIS*: Find me twenty-five even better men. We're going to prank their army and see if we can break Roose to the point he skins his son alive for shock value.
*DAVOS*: Oh, I don't know your Royal Manliness. Your men are spineless turds who jump when you ask how high. Best hope is to find thirty pretty good men among them.
*STANNIS*: Then find the prettiest good men you can, my fingerless Hand.
*DAVOS*: I have... some fingers.​


----------



## stephenspower

> "Now is not the time for boobs.



This sentence has never spoken at HBO.


----------



## ThinkerX

I am still waiting for a fleet of highly ticked off Iron Born to drop anchor off Mereen with murder in their minds.

And dragon fire or no, it looks to me like Dany has a full scale rebellion on her hands in the city, and the Unsullied have taken some significant losses. 

Hmmmm... going to try this from memory and a handful of You-tube clips:

Jamie, Brienne, and Sansa are all in unknown territory, show verses books.

Bran...?

I suspect Shireen's death was supposed to happen in Winds of Winter, and a battle is shaping up between Stannis and the Bolton's...

Dany's dragon flight corresponds to the end of Dance of Dragons.  Books and show on a rough par.

Arya in the show is about where she was at the end of Dance.

Cersei's arc in the books as compared to the show match up fairly well.   Does she do her 'walk of shame' in the finale?

Epic side trip to Hardhome not withstanding, Jon's arc is also in line with the books.  Does he get stabbed next episode?

Tyrion appears to have moved into Winds of Winter territory by linking up with Dany...and that was an episode or two ago. 

Jorah Mormont has 'walking dead man' written across his arm in grey letters.  I wonder if he won't command some sort of lunatic rearguard action should Dany have to abandon Merleen under fire?

Sam...what happened to him?  Don't remember seeing him in any You-tube clips from the last few episodes.

I'm wondering if the season finish will include the epilogue from Dance, where Vayrs decides there are just way too many officials cluttering up Kings Landing, and subtracts Kevan Lannister and the Grand Maester from those ranks.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

Sam cheered up Jon Snow when he bemoaned his inability to save all of the wildlings.


----------



## StoryTypewriter

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Sam cheered up Jon Snow when he bemoaned his inability to save all of the wildlings.


And Sam, in the last episodes, also save the girl (with dyrewolf assistance) at the wall from yet another rape, and enjoyed his "reward" while not travelling through seas carrying a moribund Maester and the wrong baby. I reckon he is the one getting the most benefit out of the book/show re-arrangement. And I don't mind that. 

But I am also looking forward to the Iron born causing some trouble. I just hope Danny flight with the dragon doesn't ended up lost in the middle of nowhere (as that what I remember reading if memory serves me well).

Cersei's walk of shame should happen next if they want to keep up with the book. Thinking about it now.. it may not be so bad to wait for the Iron born as it could be a good beggining of the season episode once some of the other stories are more settled. What do you think?

Sent from my SM-G360G using Tapatalk


----------



## StoryTypewriter

Only 3 letters can describe what I feel after watching the finale: WTF!! 

Looking forward to hear your thoughts... I need sometime to digest and re-read the last book

Sent from my SM-G360G using Tapatalk


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

StoryTypewriter said:


> WTF!!


My sentiments exactly.


The greatest WTF plot was Winterfell. Stannis burns his daughter and immediately this blows up in his face. I couldn't even feel satisfaction because Ramsey's 20 men were unbelievable, Stannis breaking to the point of sentencing his daughter to die screaming in agony was bullshit, and how could this supposedly seasoned warrior not see how men would desert him and he would lose the battle. 20 men kicked his ass and all of Winterfell knew he was coming.

Brienne's my favorite character, and I couldn't even feel good about her role. What was she doing by that wall? Just leaning on it for several weeks waiting for a candle to be lit? So if Sansa never lit the candle she was just going to wait in the forest for the rest of her life.

POD: 'Sup?
BRIENNE: Just watching Ramsey and Sansa take their nine children out for a walk.
POD: Think Ramsey cut off his sons' penises?
BRIENNE: No. I stopped thinking halfway through season 5.

Seriously, what WAS she thinking? Was she going to storm Winterfell by herself? What if she ran into Ramsey's 20 good men or Ramsey's army that's 5 times the size of Stannis' army?


Dorne? Poison lipstick. Big surprise.


The Wall? Pissy expression kid betrays Jon Snow.

JON: Really, Allister? My dead uncle isn't dead? This isn't a trick, is it?
ALLISTER: Nope.
JON: Phew--*ack*--heyyyyyy...
OLLIE: (pissily) For the Watch.
JON: Et tu, Ollie?


Arya's revenge? That was a fun scene. I think Meryn should have had a long, spiraling handlebar mustache to help emphasize that he's evil though. There were only three virgins getting whipped, and I think if he was whipping six virgins then the audience would understand that Arya's killing a very bad man. It was nice of Arya to tell the audience that she's not here to rescue little girls but to carry out a killing she planned back when the show followed the books.

I liked the scene for what is was, and that Arya can take a whipping in calm silence, but Meryn's already a baby-killer and an asshole. He doesn't need to have a disturbing secret revealed so the audience can enjoy watching him die horribly.


The walk of shame was the best scene. Why? Oh yeah, I know why. It's the only friggin' scene in the episode that was taken from the book. You could actually feel for Cersei, which was awesome. I think when I read that scene, I thought it was harsh, but there was a part of me that liked her being humbled. She failed to keep Margerie in captivity of The Faith and she had a lot of people, including her lesbian lover, tortured by that psycho who created Ser Robert Strong. With so much cut from the show (and some really had to be cut), Cersei was a little easier to empathize with. Standing tall and proud, then having her expression melt as the crowd was just awful to her was well played... and those holy warriors knocking people aside and giving a whore a bloody nose was cool.


Oh. I forgot to talk about Meereen. I'll do that now. "Meh." Done.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

Oh, I forgot to mention, until I read a recap I thought Theon and Sansa were committing suicide. You know how Ramsey's crazy girlfriend fell and died? So I thought because Theon and Sansa had a longer drop, they would also die from the fall. I guess if you jump while holding hands, um...

Maybe they cut the scene before the bone-shattering landing so Theon and Sansa would land safely, just like last week how they cut the scene so Tyrion, Jorah, and Romance Novel Guy wouldn't be killed by all those Sons of the Harpy.

Oh... and they cut the scene before Brienne's sword could strike Stannis. Maybe next season premiere Brienne will run to Pod complaining,

BRIENNE: Stannis bit me in the face! He let me say my speech about sentencing him to death and really, he was just waiting for me to raise my blade so he could pounce. I mean... in his last words, he told me to do my duty and I did. Or would have if he stayed still.
POD: So his last words were a lie?
BRIENNE: He even lied about them being his last words, because when he bit me, he said "um."
POD: That's... super evil. I'll bet he hurts little girls too.
BRIENNE: Betting is evil, Pod.


----------



## StoryTypewriter

@Legendary Sidekick You Are Brilliant



Sent from my SM-G360G using Tapatalk


----------



## Ophiucha

I was watching e3 (a major video game event) instead of watching Game of Thrones, and midst all my joy and excitement over Nintendo and Fallout news, I see on my tumblr dashboard posts that just say "WTF", "omg, what????", 'd&d are the worst writers smdh', etc. that are tagged '#game of thrones'. I knew _something_ had to have happened. So I watch the episode once all of my e3 stuff is over for the night, and I felt like every 10 minutes I had hit _that_ point that everyone else had hit. There was a strange choice every few minutes, particularly with Stannis' story. And then I got to the end, and I just...

It's not even necessarily about the changes, for me, so much as the fact that they _did_ adapt the first three books fairly faithfully - there were cuts, and S3/4 in particular began to took liberties, but they still weren't on their own path. That established a lot of plot threads, important characters, etc. that they really _do_ need to follow through with in order to write a satisfying story. Instead, they're abandoning them left and right.


----------



## Mindfire

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Oh, I forgot to mention, until I read a recap I thought Theon and Sansa were committing suicide. You know how Ramsey's crazy girlfriend fell and died? So I thought because Theon and Sansa had a longer drop, they would also die from the fall. I guess if you jump while holding hands, um...



The snow cushioned their fall. That much was obvious. And really, I think you're being unnecessarily hard on this season. I thought it was good. On par with season 4 I think. But I don't read the books, so I don't have that jaded, sneering perspective all book readers seem to have regarding the show. It wasn't blow-me-away awesome, but it wasn't terrible.


----------



## Mindfire

Ophiucha said:


> That established a lot of plot threads, important characters, etc. that they really _do_ need to follow through with in order to write a satisfying story. Instead, they're abandoning them left and right.


Or maybe they're just cutting the fat? All the things people are criticizing as unnecessary deviations are just their way of truncating the story, speeding it along to ends that the books would have reached eventually in their own long-winded way. I'd bet this is especially true of Stannis's plot. If you wanted a perfectly accurate adaptation of the books (and why would you ever want that?) The show would probably need twice as many seasons as it's likely to get. Their goal is to finish in seven. Sacrifices must be made.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

Mindfire said:


> that jaded, sneering perspective all book readers seem to have


Not all have it, and I didn't have it either. When they killed off Ser Barristan--who's still alive in the book--I was part of the "Embrace the Change" crowd. He's a great character and I didn't think I'd like seeing someone die in the shown who didn't die in the book, but that Sons of the Harpy fight was entertaining, and Barristan sacrificing himself for Greyworm was good storytelling. So yeah, I liked it.

I was harsh at first because of Sansa. I mean, that just sucked to see her used and abused by Ramsey. Ramsey was horrible to his wife in the book, so no surprise, but... why take a major character out of her own story and do that to her? I really did want to defend the move (viewers care more about Sansa Stark than Jeyne Poole), but it's hardly defensible. It was just a huge turn-off. The rest of the Winterfell deviations are indefensible: Ramsey's cartoon-super-villainy, Stannis' out-of-character betrayal of his daughter, and Brienne being the one-woman army who would save Sansa. (And sadly, I'm such a Brienne fan, I'd have cheered her on if she hacked her way through a 20 good men... then complained if that got her killed or Ramseyed.) Burning Shireen was the Shoot the Puppy trope. The acting was top notch, but was really a stupid direction for the story to take. Stannis wasn't a fool, then 20 men broke him.

I may have seemed harsh criticizing the beheading of Janos Slynt, but read post #10 of the other GoT thread and maybe you'll see how just putting the sword in Jon's hand sooner weakened a character-defining moment for Jon.

Episode 8 was awesome. Episode 9 was awesome for the last 20 minutes. Last night, I enjoyed the Arya and Cersie scenes. I take issue with the show making Meryn even more eviler by having him forcibly deflower little girls, but I did like the way the two tortured girls turned to Arya when she took her whipping in calm silence. I really did enjoy the good scenes, Cersei's was flawless; I'm not looking for excuses to complain and I expect I'll be up past midnight next spring watching Season 6.

So I don't hate all changes. The Wall changes are actually an improvement over the books. Jon is a better friend to Sam and he doesn't to the weird baby-switching thing with Gilly's son and Mance's infant prince. The Sandsnakes... are not an improvement. I wanted to like them. I did like Jaime's character having more of a purpose. The same is true for Brienne... and my hope is that she will find Sansa and Theon, since they obviously won't be running to Stannis! I like TV Dario better than book Dario, and I loved the way the pit battle was portrayed in the show. It was different, not in a way that I'd label "better" or "worse." Both the book and TV versions were done well.

If you go to a site like A Forum of Ice and Fire, you'll see a crowd of readers that hate all changes, hate the show, and watch it so they can spew hate. I'm not that. I'm just being honest about what changes work and what changes don't, and I'm perplexed that the showrunners don't just stick to the source material since the deviations are hit and miss, whereas the just-like-the-book shockers are usually done well.


----------



## Mindfire

Legendary Sidekick said:


> I was harsh at first because of Sansa. I mean, that just sucked to see her used and abused by Ramsey. Ramsey was horrible to his wife in the book, so no surprise, but... why take a major character out of her own story and do that to her? I really did want to defend the move (viewers care more about Sansa Stark than Jeyne Poole), but it's hardly defensible. It was just a huge turn-off.


I wasn't really pleased with the Sansa thing since it seemed like a step backwards but in the end it wasn't especially terrible plot wise, though sadly there was no revenge scheme either, so it was just meh.



Legendary Sidekick said:


> The rest of the Winterfell deviations are indefensible: Ramsey's cartoon-super-villainy, Stannis' out-of-character betrayal of his daughter, and Brienne being the one-woman army who would save Sansa. (And sadly, I'm such a Brienne fan, I'd have cheered her on if she hacked her way through a 20 good men... then complained if that got her killed or Ramseyed.) Burning Shireen was the Shoot the Puppy trope. The acting was top notch, but was really a stupid direction for the story to take. Stannis wasn't a fool, then 20 men broke him.


Hardly indefensible. Ramsay has already been established as the evilest evil to ever evil in Westeros (and I've been playing the Telltale game too, where his evil gets even more time to shine). And he's just so entertaining in his own mustache-twirling way. I can't really hate it. I mean, I hate him as a character because he's despicable, but I actually like the aspects you find cartoony. In fact, I probably wouldn't be able to stomach the character without the cartoony bits. He would just be unpleasant to watch without them. As it is, he's like Westeros's own Joker. It's kind of awesome. And because his character has that kind of sinister charisma, I could totally buy that he could break Stannis's army with just 20 men. He killed ironborn warriors bare-chested a couple seasons ago. Ramsay is a force of nature. It's the Batman Principle: if a character is established as sufficiently badass, then they can do just about anything and the audience will buy it. Because he's Batman*. Or in this case, because he's Ramsay. (YMMV obviously). Of course, there are limits to the Batman Principle and it works best when you put in an effort to explain how the ridiculously badass thing was done in order to ensure suspension of disbelief remains intact, something they neglected to do here. But even so, I totally bought it and the aftermath. Especially since you can tell that Stannis and his army are already fraying at the seams. All it took was a little push to bring him to the breaking point. Stannis has done terrible things for Melissandre before. He's stubbornly continued to fight a losing battle since the Blackwater. You can tell that his obsession is getting the better of his morals. It was only a matter of time before Shireen fell victim to it. Combine Stannis's mindset, the terrible conditions his army was facing, plus Ramsay's sabotage, and you have a perfect storm.



Legendary Sidekick said:


> I may have seemed harsh criticizing the beheading of Janos Slynt, but read post #10 of the other GoT thread and maybe you'll see how just putting the sword in Jon's hand sooner weakened a character-defining moment for Jon.


I read the quote and I don't think it was weakened at all. The same themes were delivered. The acting was on point. I immediately recalled Ned's words and actions from the first season. The only thing the show did was make Jon more resolute in his decision. I actually prefer the show version. Making the beheading his first choice rather than something he changes his mind and does shows the strength of his convictions and his leadership, makes it clear to the audience and to the Watch that he's not messing around.



Legendary Sidekick said:


> I'm just being honest about what changes work and what changes don't, and I'm perplexed that the showrunners don't just stick to the source material since the deviations are hit and miss, whereas the just-like-the-show shockers are usually done well.


I think the reason they don't work for you is because you're aware of the books' context, but also unaware of the endgame. It's very possible (and likely) that most of the deviations you disapprove of are just ways of getting to the planned destination in a more economical route than George is doing. So what to you looks like plot butchery is actually just cutting out a lot of meandering the show doesn't want or need.


*Corollary to this is the Joker Principle: If a character is established as sufficiently crazy and/or devious, they can likewise do just about anything and the audience will buy it. Because he's the Joker.


----------



## Mindfire

Also, could you link me to some of those change-hating threads? I have a mighty need for some schadenfreude. xD


----------



## Ophiucha

Definitely agree with Sidekick. To be honest, I'm _not_ a big enough fan of ASOIAF to really care that they are changing things. I read most of the books after the show came out(; I had already read the first one and found it too dry to care, but having S1 of the show to get me attached to the characters made the books easier to read). Daenerys' story in the books is _exceptionally_ boring, and given her popularity, it was natural that the writers of the show would want to go their own path with her. And GRRM's slow pace means that they'd either need to ask him for spoilers or do their own thing in order to keep the 'one season a year' pace. I am fine with that.

And some changes do work well. Tyrion and Daenerys meeting this soon was largely more interesting than Tyrion's adventures in the books, and aside from Penny, I'm happy with most of that being cut. Some of the characters they give more time to make great additions to the flow of the story - Bronn and Olenna Tyrell stand out for this past season. It's impossible to ignore that *many* of their smaller changes - from Sansa marrying Ramsay to cutting out Lady Stoneheart to the virgin girls that Sidekick mentioned - are made with derailing the arcs of or exploiting female characters, and that bothers me from a 'this is gross nonsense' perspective, but even that isn't _egregiously_ poor writing. Just gratuitous, and they've done 'gratuitous' well.

But this season, they tanked any and all character development Stannis has had since he was introduced. And then they killed him, leaving Melisandre to team up with somebody (can't be Jon, can it?) to defend the wall. Is she going to team up with Ramsay? Or Alistair? Because I barely give a damn about her, and I sure as hell don't give a damn about _them_. How does she plan to take Westeros for the Lord of Light now that she's not working with someone who has a claim to the throne? Indeed, is there even a war for the Iron Throne anymore? Sansa's the best claimant (when was the last time we saw Bran?) and she's not even a virgin anymore, which would have _seriously_ helped her seal a political marriage to make her claim more legitimate. All the Baratheons are dead. Daenerys is still doing her thing, and even though her dragons are bigger, they're not quite 'conquer Westeros on their backs' big. At this point, the most satisfying conclusion leaves Dany to both team up with Melisandre to defeat the White Walkers _and_ team up with Tyrion to take King's Landing. Either that, or Ramsay does it, and that really will be the world's least fulfilling conclusion to a plot thread imaginable.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

Mindfire said:


> I think the reason they don't work for you is because you're aware of the books' context


This is likely a big part of it, but it's what makes the changes mind-boggling--when the changes are worse, I mean. If the showrunners make an improvement, I can appreciate the effort. Or when they killed off Jojen Reed and Barristan the Bold, I figured those were book 6 deaths, and I didn't mind them coming early because they were done well.

But honestly, if you read the books you can see this isn't a rush to the endgame. It's a totally different path to the endgame. For example, Jon Snow doesn't go to Hardhome, but he still gets betrayed by his men and the Melisandre is there at the Wall. Her placement there is important for where I expect the Jon Snow to go.


Spoiler: fanboyish speculation



The Lord of Light brings him back to life, yaaaaay!


----------



## Mindfire

Legendary Sidekick said:


> But honestly, if you read the books you can see this isn't a rush to the endgame. It's a totally different path to the endgame. For example, Jon Snow doesn't go to Hardhome, but he still gets betrayed by his men and the Melisandre is there at the Wall. Her placement there is important for where I expect the Jon Snow to go.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: fanboyish speculation
> 
> 
> 
> The Lord of Light brings him back to life, yaaaaay!



I think we might have different thresholds for what constitutes "totally different". From what I gather on wikis, the events this season have been pretty much the same in the broad strokes, except for the Dorne plot thread. And I agree with your prediction for Jon's fate.


----------



## SeverinR

Haven't watched the last show yet.
But I have heard.
Was thinking then Snow was just a stupid bastard and his heritage was just a red hearing. Then I remembered something someone said.

Someone on a site suggested Snow dies, ending his oath, but returns to life (as the gods have done before in this series.), free to move on.


----------



## X Equestris

SeverinR said:


> Haven't watched the last show yet.
> But I have heard.
> Was thinking then Snow was just a stupid bastard and his heritage was just a red hearing. Then I remembered something someone said.
> 
> Someone on a site suggested Snow dies, ending his oath, but returns to life (as the gods have done before in this series.), free to move on.



Yeah, that's the general thought amongst a lot of people, especially since Melisandre is still at the Wall in the books.


----------



## StoryTypewriter

Just throwing out there... Has anybody read the excerpt that has been released for Winds of Winter? And if so, thoughts? ^^

Sent from my SM-G360G using Tapatalk


----------



## SeverinR

X Equestris said:


> Yeah, that's the general thought amongst a lot of people, especially since Melisandre is still at the Wall in the books.


Malisandre had just returned the scene before on the show.


----------



## X Equestris

SeverinR said:


> Malisandre had just returned the scene before on the show.



Then I would say that sets things up perfectly in both continuities.


----------



## ThinkerX

> Just throwing out there... Has anybody read the excerpt that has been released for Winds of Winter? And if so, thoughts? ^^



About half a dozen sample chapters or their summaries have been released (summaries made from notes from readings by GRRM at various conventions).

Going from memory...

Ayra - is 'undercover' as an actress on the Mummer's Ship in Bravos.  The play she is in depicts the last days of King Robert and makes Tyron into a epic villain (onstage 'rape' among other things).  Chapter ends with Ayra killing another member of the Brave Companions.

This one....maybe we saw it at the end of the current season in altered form.

Barristan -  leads a sortie from Mereen against the Slaver encampment.  

(doubly mute issue in the TV series, as he is dead and there is no siege).

The Dornish Princess (name escapes me at the moment, not a Sand Snake) travels north to try to cut a deal with the invading mercenary army.  

Again, not a factor in he series, since events went down differently in Dorne and there is no mercenary invasion.

Theon - Suspended spread eagled from the inside wall of a tower at the ruined village where Stannis is encamped.  He gets to overhear Stannis's political machinations.  His sister, also a captive, pleads for his life.  

Also irrelevant to the TV series as Stannis is dead, though I wonder if Theon links up with Brienne.   

Tyron - in the command tent of the Second Sons as the Iron Born attack the camp, trying to convince Dario to join Dany, extremely ticked off about being in yet another battle.  At one point, an aristocratic slaver messenger wearing a 'porno breastplate' shows up, spots Tyron and gets killed.  Dario announces the Second Sons have always been with Dany.  

Not relevant t the TV series, though I wonder if something vaguely similar might not happen should the Iron Born actually attack next season.

Think there was at least one other chapter released, though the title / POV escapes me at the moment.

So, at this point, the spoiler chapters for 'Winds of Winter' do not look to significantly affect the next TV season.


----------

