# Question about leather armor



## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 21, 2013)

How much would a "suit" of leather armor weight. I am talking for arms, shoulders, torso, and legs. I am asking both out of curiosity and for a couple of WIPs I have in mind.


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## Weaver (Jun 22, 2013)

It depends on what style of armor you're talking about, the thickness of the leather, and how much metalwork is involved in its construction, among other things.

leather scale armor - Mythic Scribes

The armor in that photo weighs about 55 pounds.  Soft 6-ounce leather scales riveted to a 4-ounce suede foundation, with 8-ounce hard leather for the arms and legs and helmet.

If you give a more detailed description of what kind of armor you're asking about, I can give you a fairly close estimate of how much it would weigh.


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## wordwalker (Jun 22, 2013)

This sounds promising. We've had threads about chain and plate, but "leather" usually gets talked about as one idea we just move on from-- even though it's what most soldiers had in one form or another.

Is there any way to pick a few types as the most common, or most indicative of different approaches, then say what kind of society might develop each, and then find the weight, cost, and effectiveness for those?


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## Weaver (Jun 22, 2013)

Well, under any circumstances, leather armor will not be created by a culture that doesn't have access to critters that have the right kind of hide.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 22, 2013)

IDK I say we should try to get as much as we can. This question actually started due to a zombie apocalypse survival discussion.


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## Weaver (Jun 22, 2013)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> IDK I say we should try to get as much as we can. This question actually started due to a zombie apocalypse survival discussion.



Oh, zombies... Can I assume it's a more-or-less modern setting, then?

What ya want to do in that case is find an ex-SCAdian or similar person who has practical knowledge of making old-style armor.  The survivalists are all gonna have looted the sources of modern armor -- bulletproof vests and the like -- pretty darn quickly, and you don't want to fight them for their stuff.  Besides, after the fall of civilization, there wil be a limited amount of said modern armor and no one to make more because the technology required to make it will be gone, but as long as you have cows, you've got the material to make leather armor.  Chainmail is also good (useless against impact damage, but it does deflect a blade well enough if worn over something rigid), but you may not want to use up your wire for that -- it may be needed more for other things, and wire is also something hard to replace.  And plate... Too heavy, too hard to move in, and it doesn't do a thing against any powerful piercing-type weapon.  (Actual SCAdians in the Middle Kingdom did a test of various armor types versus a boar spear.  Conclusion:  NOTHING stops a boar spear.  They didn't even to put much force behind it.  So if you find yourself living in a post-zombie-apocalypse world someday, remember that, once the bullets are used up, you'll want to fight with a boar spear... which is probably pretty good against zombies, too.  Quieter than a chainsaw, too.)

Anyway.  Leather armor types.  You've got some basic categories for construction style:  lamelar/little pieces layered and laced together, articulated, solid plates, quilted, a base for metal plates either on top of or between (coat of plates or brigandine)... And you can also categorize by type of leather and whether or not it has been treated to be more rigid (cuir bouilli) or flexible (suede or chrome oil tanned).  Is it enhanced with metal bits added on, or not?  Is it meant to be worn with thick padding, or minimal, or none at all?  (The padding/gambeson _does_ count as part of the armor.  Try wearing chainmail by itself in a real fight if you doubt this.  Even leather, although it is superior to other materials for absorbing impact, is better with at least a light gambeson.  Protects the wearer from getting bruises from the weight of the armor itself, if nothing else, and who wants to worry about the discomfort of armor bruises when fighting zombies?  Or angry LARPers, for that matter?)

Um... I can brainstorm/blather about this for pages and pages.  Maybe a bit of narrow-down on the question would help?  At least a little information on what tech levels/time periods are relevant.  (They didn't have Jiffy Rivets in the Middle Ages -- sad but true.  For that matter, no one sells Jiffy Rivets around here... Coincidence?)


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 22, 2013)

Hmm, this suddenly got bigger than I was anticipating. See what I know about leather armor can fit in a thimble with your finger still in it. So this all square one stuff. Perhaps if we broke it down to discussing the basics or getting resources for the basics, like types of armor available and what not.


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## Zero Angel (Jun 23, 2013)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> How much would a "suit" of leather armor weight. I am talking for arms, shoulders, torso, and legs. I am asking both out of curiosity and for a couple of WIPs I have in mind.


Is there a reason why you need to know the weight? As someone that wears leather armor regularly (although not a full suit, just various pieces), I can tell you that it's light. Light enough that you barely notice it after you're wearing it for a bit and are used to wearing armor. On the other hand, you never stop noticing the 9872987238947239847 pound steel helmet on your head even when you become accustomed to it. (OK, so maybe the helmet is not 9.9 quintillion pounds...). 

If it's boiled leather, then it can be bulky and get in the way, but if it's soft or well-worn, then it's just like wearing very heavy clothes. If you're wearing leather in layers or any sort of armor that uses multiple layers, then it can be as heavy as you need it.



Weaver said:


> Oh, zombies... Can I assume it's a more-or-less modern setting, then?
> 
> What ya want to do in that case is find an ex-SCAdian or similar person who has practical knowledge of making old-style armor.  The survivalists are all gonna have looted the sources of modern armor -- bulletproof vests and the like -- pretty darn quickly, and you don't want to fight them for their stuff.  Besides, after the fall of civilization, there wil be a limited amount of said modern armor and no one to make more because the technology required to make it will be gone, but as long as you have cows, you've got the material to make leather armor.  Chainmail is also good (useless against impact damage, but it does deflect a blade well enough if worn over something rigid), but you may not want to use up your wire for that -- it may be needed more for other things, and wire is also something hard to replace.  And plate... Too heavy, too hard to move in, and it doesn't do a thing against any powerful piercing-type weapon.  (Actual SCAdians in the Middle Kingdom did a test of various armor types versus a boar spear.  Conclusion:  NOTHING stops a boar spear.  They didn't even to put much force behind it.  So if you find yourself living in a post-zombie-apocalypse world someday, remember that, once the bullets are used up, you'll want to fight with a boar spear... which is probably pretty good against zombies, too.  Quieter than a chainsaw, too.)
> 
> ...



Every time one of my SCA group's members goes to tractor supply we buy them out of rivets – only store that sells them around here. 

Anyway, speaking to your boar spear issue. I'm sure you know, but in general you don't want to take a face-on shot from anything. In SCA for instance, it is common to catch blows solidly on a shield, but if that was a bladed weapon and anything less than a vibranium shield, then your shield is going to be destroyed rapidly. Instead, you catch the attack at an angle that has it glancing off. So instead of taking the boar spear to your gut, you're going to want to deflect it to the side. 

Big fan of boar spears though in general.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 23, 2013)

Zero Angel said:


> Is there a reason why you need to know the weight?



The reason why I need to know the weight is mostly for descriptive purposes really and when a survivor stumbles onto the group that is using this he asks about weight and whether the zombie can bite through the leather if it is x weight. He then asks why they don't use plate and mail and weight get's tossed in again.


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## Zero Angel (Jun 23, 2013)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> The reason why I need to know the weight is mostly for descriptive purposes really and when a survivor stumbles onto the group that is using this he asks about weight and whether the zombie can bite through the leather if it is x weight. He then asks why they don't use plate and mail and weight get's tossed in again.



Are your zombie fighters going to have access to scales? I'm guessing they'll just guess at the weight or say it's light.

If it's boiled leather (which hardens it), then any zombie that has the same abilities as a human but undead will not be able to bite through it. Heck, even if it's not boiled leather, a raging human isn't going to be able to bite through thick leather, although they would probably bruise the flesh underneath. 

Again though, although armor's heavy, unless you're in a protracted battle it's not going to affect you much once you're used to it, even if it's heavier than leather. The only time armor really starts to drag you down is when you're exhausted from fighting or running, but even then...

I'd say any person with training tries to find a good fit between their dexterity and agility in battle versus how much protection they want or need. In terms of long-term weight, it's not going to matter as much, and if they have access to any sort of modern materials, then they can probably find pieces that are lightweight but still stronger than leather. They might wear this over a heavy cloth or leather undergarment though for cushioning. 

An example, I have black plastic barrel leg armor lined with blue camping foam on the inside (plastic barrels are popular trashcans and blue camping foam would be easily overlooked by looters at Dick's and Wal-Mart). In a mass melee battle, I almost always leave this off not because of weight but because of it getting in the way and because the vast majority of fighters tend to focus on your head. On the other hand, if I am fighting a trained fighter one-on-one, then I almost always put it on, not because it doesn't get in the way, but because I'd really like to make sure I'm able to sit down comfortably for the next few days and having bruises all around your legs tends to put a damper on that. This black plastic barrel armor is about as strong as boiled leather and not noticeably different in weight. It's also a lot easier to make than leather. My point is that the issue isn't the weight for most people, it's the maneuverability that affects their decisions, and then only once they're comfortable fighting. Beginners tend to armor up as much as possible in my experience.

As soon as you start to get to chain mail is when the weight starts to influence you I'd say. Chain mail is bloody heavy and has to be worn over a gambeson or heavy cloth to be effective, but poorly suited for long campaigns without much chance to take care of your armor. Chain mail requires a lot of upkeep and is heavy enough to start impacting even your short-term stamina (sprinting and fighting) let alone long-term (jogging, marching, protracted battles). 

If all civilization has broken down and people are scavenging for supplies, chances are they won't have leather, on the other hand, if they're harvesting from animals, chances are they'll have hide armor instead of leather. Leather is actually pretty labor intensive (and before modern chemicals smelly as all else since they used urine and crap applied to decaying flesh in its making). In this case, hide is going to be significantly heavier than leather because you need to have so much of it to absorb blows. 

For the record, my current kit consists of the thigh-knee legs that I mentioned above, catcher legs for my lower legs and knees with added fins to wrap around for side-knee protection, both worn over sweatpants, athletic cup, police blunt weapon armor, thin leather vambraces with metal cops, hard plastic demi-gauntlets, steel gorget with lobster tail, and a steel helm. When I first started I had boiled leather vambraces with boiled leather cops (also called cowters or couters), boiled leather demi-gauntlets, soft leather cuisses over foam, and a boiled leather gorget. 

The weight wasn't the issue whenever I upgraded my kit, and in fact, sometimes I upgraded to heavier equipment, it was always maneuverability while maintaining safety.


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## skip.knox (Jun 23, 2013)

My belief, utterly without evidence, is that few people would wear leather armor without some sort of padding (that is, something more than just a single layer of cloth). Leather gets hot and damned uncomfortable if worn against bare skin and it's not much better with just a shirt or underwear. I just assume that some sort of linen underneath would be standard--so standard, in fact, that the leather is often sewn right onto it.

Am I just living in some sort of fantasy world?

-= Skip =-


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## Zero Angel (Jun 23, 2013)

skip.knox said:


> My belief, utterly without evidence, is that few people would wear leather armor without some sort of padding (that is, something more than just a single layer of cloth). Leather gets hot and damned uncomfortable if worn against bare skin and it's not much better with just a shirt or underwear. I just assume that some sort of linen underneath would be standard--so standard, in fact, that the leather is often sewn right onto it.
> 
> Am I just living in some sort of fantasy world?
> 
> -= Skip =-


It really depends on what part of the armor it is. I like wearing cloth under all my armor for comfort reasons, but that's new this year. I used to wear short sleeves and shorts so my legs and arms were directly on the armor I wore on those parts. I wear gloves under my demis, but that's to protect my hands more than for comfort. 

I'd say if you have the option most people are going to want cloth underneath armor, but it's not *needed* like it is for mail or plate, which nearly always requires a gambeson.


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## Weaver (Jun 24, 2013)

skip.knox said:


> My belief, utterly without evidence, is that few people would wear leather armor without some sort of padding (that is, something more than just a single layer of cloth). Leather gets hot and damned uncomfortable if worn against bare skin and it's not much better with just a shirt or underwear. I just assume that some sort of linen underneath would be standard--so standard, in fact, that the leather is often sewn right onto it.
> 
> Am I just living in some sort of fantasy world?
> 
> -= Skip =-



I know people who wear leather armor when engaging in (mock) combat.  They do not wear it without padding unless they are very unwise... and never after the first time.  My twin (the guy in the black scale, in my gallery photos) wears a light gambeson under his armor just for walking around in it around as costume at Renaissance fairs, because the weight of 45 pounds of cow hide and steel rivets pressing down on one's shoulders _will_ cause chafing and possibly bruising no matter how strong you are.

A single layer of linen alone is not sufficient padding, although it is certainly better than nothing at all.  It can at least be soaked to provide a bit of cooling.  Layers of linen with some sort of padding quilted between -- that's what a gambeson was anyway.

As for linen being incorporated into the armor itself... I don't have the book in front of me at the moment (no idea where my twin stashed it), but there's a book called _The Armourer and His Craft_, by Charles Ffoulkes (that's not a typo on his name) that has a bit in it about linen armor (the people who made it were even a separate guild from the makers of metal armor), which was made by sewing metal rings into heavy linen like eyelets.  I imagine that it was much less hot to wear, even over a gambeson, than leather-based ringmail (metal rings sewn to leather) due to all those small holes in the linen.  It would definitely work to sew/rivet leather plates to a linen backing, or between layers of linen.  Keep in mind that this still needs padding under it, but it will be cooler to wear because the linen will allow more airflow and, unlike leather, can be soaked to help keep the wearer cool.  (Metal breastplates were sometimes covered in fabric -- velvet was popular.  Being a pile fabric, velvet absorbs _a lot _of water, and the covered armor could be wetted for cooling.)


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## Ankari (Jun 24, 2013)

> The Armourer and His Craft



This book is free from Nook.com. Make sure you spell it just like that. Thanks for the referral.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 25, 2013)

A quick thing about hardened leather.  I have boiled leather before and I know someone who bakes his leather.  Hardened leather is sort of shrunk with water and heat, the resulting product being thicker and harder than the original.  In fact, his leather shoulders sound like wood when you tap them on a table.  They feel as hard as wood too.  Hardened leather can be brittle, but it's very light, actually, even with straps and buckles.  

Another thing about leather armor, is that it wasn't intended to be worn as a complete set.  Modern people have made some really cool sets, but historical armor was very different. 

Weight is going to be variable depending on whether you're talking boiled leather breastplate, a leather scale tunic, or whatever.


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## Weaver (Jun 25, 2013)

Caged Maiden said:


> A quick thing about hardened leather.  I have boiled leather before and I know someone who bakes his leather.  Hardened leather is sort of shrunk with water and heat, the resulting product being thicker and harder than the original.  In fact, his leather shoulders sound like wood when you tap them on a table.  They feel as hard as wood too.  Hardened leather can be brittle, but it's very light, actually, even with straps and buckles.
> 
> Another thing about leather armor, is that it wasn't intended to be worn as a complete set.  Modern people have made some really cool sets, but historical armor was very different.
> 
> Weight is going to be variable depending on whether you're talking boiled leather breastplate, a leather scale tunic, or whatever.



Water-hardened leather shouldn't be _completely_ rigid; if it is, it will be brittle like you describe.  Nor should it shrink up noticably.  He's over-cooking it.  (I've seen boiled leather that was so brittle that it shattered when dropped on the floor.)


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## Zero Angel (Jun 25, 2013)

Weaver said:


> Water-hardened leather shouldn't be _completely_ rigid; if it is, it will be brittle like you describe.  Nor should it shrink up noticably.  He's over-cooking it.  (I've seen boiled leather that was so brittle that it shattered when dropped on the floor.)



Agreed, but to someone that's never seen hard leather before, it is somewhat astonishing. The extent of my leather experience before the SCA was a lambskin coat and a few other apparel items. I always thought of leather as durable, but never realized it could take on the consistency it does after boiling.


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## SeverinR (Jun 25, 2013)

I believe the animal from which the leather is made would also change the weight.
Cows, bison, alligator, and for fantasy worlds dragon, etc.

If post appoc, I believe the person would use what ever they could find to protect themselves. Constantly adding, adjusting their armor to prevent injury and still be able to fight with as little restriction as possible.
I believe they would also be looking for the best weapons to fight with also.

Learning that a club to the head might kill a zombie if you hit, but that a bladed weapon that cuts off extremities might be better, to limit the fight of the enemy and slow them down.

Pig sticker(bore spear) might be a great weapon, but if a zombie feels no pain, it might take a while for the spear to hit the right spot to kill them quickly, or bleed them out enough to make them fall.
Experience and learning in all situations will help you to do better, even in a zombie appocolypse, and of course always follow zombieland rules, (1)Cardio, (2)beware of bathrooms,(3) seatbelts, (4)double tap, (22)When in doubt, know your way out,
and never pick up strangers unless they need to have their hair brushed behind their ear. (I wish ZL 2 would get released!)


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