# How do you feel about a 'Chosen One'?



## C. A. Stanley (Apr 21, 2017)

The MC in my WIP would likely be referred to as a Chosen One (though I'm not entirely sure yet if he is or not!).

I have no issue with this–I think it’s fun to have a singularly powerful character, as long as there are appropriate limits, costs, and balances–but I know there are many fantasy fans who are getting sick of this ‘clichÃ©’.

What are your thoughts?

What ideas do you use in your own work to develop a relatable Chosen One, or transform the concept completely?

I’m happy to give more details about my MC, if anyone is interested.


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## CupofJoe (Apr 21, 2017)

If it's "Chosen" like it is in the Hunger Games? Then I'm all for it.
Chosen can mean very different things, from a fated life to walking around with a target between your shoulder blades, being revered or reviled or any of a dozen other things. 
It's what it means in the story and to the character...
Do they know or like that they are the chosen? Would they rather not be so named? 
I don't think I can write a "chosen" hero.
I tend to have MCs who are almost peripheral to the main event, or at best a small cog in a bigger machine. I like the freedom and distance it gives me to write.


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## glutton (Apr 21, 2017)

C. A. Stanley said:


> I think it’s fun to have a singularly powerful character, as long as there are appropriate limits, costs, and balances—but I know there are many fantasy fans who are getting sick of this ‘clichÃ©’.



I like "singularly powerful" characters but prefer ones who earn it through hard work over the usual chosen ones who are just "gifted" and can access unusual levels of power with little or no training/experience (although they would probably still need a good amount of inborn talent to be far above most others even with a lot of training and experience, but they don't tend to have unique supernatural gifts, just tap into their (exaggerated) physical potential more). My typical MC type is a cute girl who has years of combat experience, carries around a gigantic weapon and can slay kaiju sized monsters in straight physical combat. Rather than being a green kid they're more likely to be the ones calling someone else "kid" although many of my heroines are still in their late teens to twenties, but they're old hands (and full of scars) experience wise.  Often they're similar to a big sister/mentor type character in a more standard story, but as the lead.



C. A. Stanley said:


> What ideas do you use in your own work to develop a relatable Chosen One, or transform the concept completely?



As hinted above mine basically choose themselves. They want to be strong (or to get strong to be able to survive/protect others) so they are. XD


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 21, 2017)

Basically the MC is born in the right place, at the right time, to the right parents (or is it the wrong place at the wrong time? ). He is chosen only by circumstance (though, that circumstance is intertwined with a 'natural force' that rules magical energy in the world).

His specific lineage, and the approximate time of his birth (leading up to a time of great global 'stress', in this instance an inevitable, intercontinental war), means he has control of 3 forms of magic rather than one (usual) or two (uncommon). He can hide this if he chooses (once he figures out that he is 'special'), but the position of Terishar is rare, and he feels that for once in his life he may be _accepted_ (the Terishar is seen as an almost mythological figure, revered by some, reviled by others).

I hope to show the two sides of power, which might be a trope in itself... He has the power to save the world, or destroy it. He will both love his position of power, and hate it. He will be a flawed protagonist (not just _too trusting_ or anything soft like that), and will rely heavily on those around him.

I totally appreciate your final comment - I imagine it's nice to have that freedom, whereby your MC is involved but not integral. It gives you the opportunity to show events through a wider perspective, and have the MC discover things at the same time as the reader. I haven't written that perspective yet, but I will surely give it a go.


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 21, 2017)

Great point, power has to be earned or learned. It's difficult to sympathise with a character who doesn't deserve what they have!

They're great characters--the ones who already have training and proficiency--I just prefer to have them as secondaries, so that my MC can display the same awe that I would myself  always useful to have one or two around in case things get messy.

This cute badass you reference... in the same vein as Sucker Punch, by any chance ?


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## glutton (Apr 21, 2017)

C. A. Stanley said:


> This cute badass you reference... in the same vein as Sucker Punch, by any chance ?



Kind of, but more visually obvious and imposing ie. usually scarred up and likely with intimidating looking weapons and/or armor. This is my favored aesthetic (ignore the impractical outfit, I mean more the confidence, weapon size and hint of dirtiness):


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## Mythopoet (Apr 21, 2017)

I'm fine with it if they've actually been "chosen" _by_ someone or something for rational and compelling reasons. (No, no, teenagers are NOT the right people to select to protect the planet.) Half the time you have a "chosen one" who has been "chosen" by some vague concept or even nothing at all. I hate that. Make it make sense.


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## glutton (Apr 21, 2017)

Mythopoet said:


> (No, no, teenagers are NOT the right people to select to protect the planet.)



Cavet: if the teenager is already proven and considered one of the best fighters on the planet (real life example: Mike Tyson at age 19) and what they need is a fighter... although I'd guess that's not functionally the same as the type of teenagers you're thinking of.


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## skip.knox (Apr 21, 2017)

I don't have strong feelings about ideas. Plot ideas are to writing what a sketch is to a finished building.

 I react to writing. Write well, and I'm in. Write badly and it doesn't matter how clever or unusual the ideas, I'm out.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Apr 21, 2017)

For me, it depends on how it is used. If it is used as a deconstruction [like in Harry Potter of Tales of Symphonia/Tales of the Abyss] or with clever twists and turns, then I find the premise interesting.


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## pmmg (Apr 21, 2017)

I kind of think most Main Characters are chosen one's of a sort, whether they wear the title or not. I think 'chosen ones' tend to be a somewhat natural consequence of writing about the most interesting people on the planet (obviously, if something or someone else was more interesting, I ought to write about them instead). I don't mind any of the clichÃ©'s, they all rise or fall on the many other factors other than they just are. Compelling, Engaging, well written will trump efforts to write things off as clichÃ©.

Actual, full blown, born with the most metachlorians, chosen ones certainly run a great potential to make a readers eyes roll, so if you have one of those, you have to work on all the other important aspects as well.


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## Deleted member 4265 (Apr 21, 2017)

Chosen one is kind of an ill defined term so before I answer the question I have to supply my own personal definition. For me a chosen one has to be 1) chosen by someone in the narrative be it prophecy, gods, or just other people 2) the last/ and or only hope. A good example of this distinction would be Harry Potter. 

In the first few books, he's clearly going to be the one to thwart Voldemort (he is the protagonist after all) and he's got some unusual, but not unique powers, but I wouldn't consider him a true chosen one because even though he has a special connection with Voldemort, up until the prophesy is revealed, its conceivable that someone else could ultimately be the one to kill Voldemort. Dumbledore, for example is a powerful enough that Voldemort's afraid of him. My point is, Harry doesn't feel the burden of being the only one who can kill Voldemort. Its only after the prophecy is revealed that he feels the enormity of his destiny and becomes a true chosen one. 

Star Wars is another example of this. I wouldn't consider Luke in the original trilogy to be a chosen one because he's the best choice for defeating Vader but never the only choice (Laya or even a concentrated effort by the rebels might have been able to bring down the empire) but Anakin in the prequels is (albeit not a good one since his prophecy is very vague)

Okay now that we've got that out of the way, what makes a good chosen one. Well there's got to be a pretty good reason as to why they're the only one who can do this. Having a famous dad or being the strongest/ most powerful doesn't cut it for me. If a chosen one is just the most powerful, then I question why couldn't one more intelligent or several less powerful people combine efforts achieve the same goal.My favorite chosen one's are all uniquely qualified for their task. They usually have a special power or ability no one else has like immunity to the bad guy's magic or they're the only one who can wield that magic sword. Basically, they've got to be the bad guy's Achilles heel. If the antagonist has more than one weak spot, what's the point of having a chosen one?

Secondly, they've got to have a good reason for having the unique ability they have. If its been inherited then there's got to be a good reason why their parents didn't defeat the bad guy or why it can't wait another generation. If not inherited, I expect it to be explained at some point. I find superhero origin stories to be a treasure trove of inspiration if I'm stuck on this part.

So, basically if you can answer the questions:  Why this person? Why now? then you're good to go.


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## evolution_rex (Apr 21, 2017)

I think the character dynamics of how one would react to being the chosen one don't get fleshed out enough. Most of time they feel a bit intimidated or may initially refuse the call, but then we don't really get to know their feelings once they accept their title and go on with their adventure. I'd try to get a clear idea on the thought processes of your character. For example, he could become paranoid thinking that everything he's about to do is going to be the moment in which he fulfills his destiny, or he can become extremely cocky and think that no one can kill him.


If the Chosen One is revealed through prophecy, then another thing to flesh out are different interpretations of said prophecy. People are going to have different ideas on who the chosen one is, what exactly he's suppose to do, and how exactly he's suppose to do it. You can use this as an advantage too, creating a mystery, leading on that the prophecy is going to be fulfilled a certain way, and then do a big reveal that is in fact different. I think that's an easy way to get the reader theorizing about your work and really look for details.


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## FifthView (Apr 21, 2017)

Like *pmmg*, I think that most stories do feature a particularly unusual, better, stronger, more intelligent character as main character—at least, there's something to distinguish them from other characters in the book. These are "Chosen Ones" at least in as far as the author has chosen them to be the heroes. 

I like the example of Ender Wiggin, who was chosen by the powers that be in the novel on the basis of his intelligence and personality and then trained up. Those who chose him nonetheless still felt uncertainty as they watched his development. Also, those choosers had chosen many others, basically sparring partners, and I suppose any one of them could have become the ultimate "Chosen One." But Ender's the one who rose to the top, after all.

Using the very idea of "Chosen One" within a story adds a particularly new dimension. Someone else in the novel, perhaps even a group or a whole society, might come to know that character as the Chosen One ("chosen by the gods" or whatever.) Or even that character might come to see himself as the Chosen One. In either case, you would be introducing another character or set of characters: the Choosers. Thereafter, these play a role in the tale, either as background or up front in the story, and someone else in the tale will have ideas/opinions about these. Plus, you then must address how the recognizers (group, society, individual) have their own concepts of the world altered by this knowledge of the existence of a Chosen One. Others may treat this person in a special way (positively or negatively), and the person himself is likely to treat himself in a special way, if only to think about himself while having the knowledge that he's a Chosen One influencing his thoughts.


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## Demesnedenoir (Apr 21, 2017)

My favorite Chosen One is Brian, from the Life of Brian, heh heh.

I see the argument over Chosen Ones as overblown, they're either done well, or not. In general, if you see Chosen One! right up front people will be more skeptical, but like Luke, Harry Potter, and probably a bunch of others, if the status of chosen one shows up later, readers/viewers will have less of an issue with it. 

In my WIP I'm just about ready to shop, I use the term Chosen One once, in reference to the antagonist. While one could argue the protags are "chosen ones" in a vague sense, the real chosen one in the book is the guy they're all fighting.


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 21, 2017)

glutton - I like it. Personally I'm not a fan of oversized weapons, but hey, whatever floats your boat, or indeed, kills your enemies


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 21, 2017)

Demesnedenoir - Totally agree. My MC doesn't know he's _special_ until maybe halfway through the book, and then things start clicking into place. I aim to introduce it subtly; the last thing I want is for readers to become apathetic to the MC because he is OP.

I really like that last point, I'd never really considered it before. Do you mean the 'Chosen One' is the antagonist specifically in your book, or in antagonists in general? Because I feel that argument has some serious weight... Antagonists tend to trigger enough conflict to generate a whole storyline, and in that sense, they are special.


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## FifthView (Apr 21, 2017)

I might be forgetting the specifics, but didn't Harry Potter become the Chosen One precisely because he was chosen by Voldemort, the villain? Had Voldemort come to the Longbottoms that night rather than the Potters, it might have turned out differently?



Demesnedenoir said:


> My favorite Chosen One is Brian, from the Life of Brian, heh heh.
> 
> I see the argument over Chosen Ones as overblown, they're either done well, or not. In general, if you see Chosen One! right up front people will be more skeptical, but like Luke, Harry Potter, and probably a bunch of others, if the status of chosen one shows up later, readers/viewers will have less of an issue with it.
> 
> In my WIP I'm just about ready to shop, I use the term Chosen One once, in reference to the antagonist. While one could argue the protags are "chosen ones" in a vague sense, the real chosen one in the book is the guy they're all fighting.


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## Demesnedenoir (Apr 21, 2017)

In general to a degree, but quite specifically in my book. He was chosen by the gods for a rather nasty "the ends justify the means" task and the other characters are out to stop him. He (and the gods indirectly) are the catalyst and drivers, the characters are the pawns.



C. A. Stanley said:


> Demesnedenoir - Totally agree. My MC doesn't know he's _special_ until maybe halfway through the book, and then things start clicking into place. I aim to introduce it subtly; the last thing I want is for readers to become apathetic to the MC because he is OP.
> 
> I really like that last point, I'd never really considered it before. Do you mean the 'Chosen One' is the antagonist specifically in your book, or in antagonists in general? Because I feel that argument has some serious weight... Antagonists tend to trigger enough conflict to generate a whole storyline, and in that sense, they are special.


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## Demesnedenoir (Apr 21, 2017)

I just rolling with what someone else said, I couldn't get past chapter 2 and didn't really like the movies much, think I saw the first and second with kids while spacing off... so... I'm not a Potter person by any stretch, LOL. What I vaguely recall... he comes off as sorta chosen to me early on... bearing the mark kind of indicates this. He has the feel, but was it really explicit early? I'm not sure. It was implicit at least, I think.



FifthView said:


> I might be forgetting the specifics, but didn't Harry Potter become the Chosen One precisely because he was chosen by Voldemort, the villain? Had Voldemort come to the Longbottoms that night rather than the Potters, it might have turned out differently?


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## FifthView (Apr 21, 2017)

He gets the mark from Voldemort because Voldemort came to him when he was a babe, planning to kill him. But Voldemort targeted him because of a prophecy he'd heard. There were two boys who could have fit the prophecy, Harry and Neville. Voldemort chose Harry (having only heard a part of the prophecy), and from that moment forward, Harry became the Chosen One—having been marked as such, and changed, because of what happened that night.

This kinda plays in to a subset category of "Chosen Ones," i.e. those chosen by the villain. This is like killing John Wick's dog; from that moment forward, John Wick is the "Chosen One" of the tale. Revenge tales, where the hero suffers calamity caused by a villain and returns the favor, might also fall within that "chosen by the villain" subcategory, when the person seeking revenge just happens to be particularly good in the qualities necessary for revenge, heh.


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## pmmg (Apr 21, 2017)

Not sure if HP was ever called a Chosen one specifically, but he was definitely in the mold of being chosen. Its clear he's the one the main villain is after, and he is the one who has to face him, with world changing consequences.


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 21, 2017)

Ok so I'm basically a forum novice, and didn't expect to get so many great replies... Apologies if I don't delve into each response as much as I'd like too. I'm also quickly learning that I don't know anywhere near as much as I thought I did, which is GREAT 

It seems to me that the consensus is, a Chosen One is specifically chosen by _someone_, whether that be fate, gods, society, individuals etc. WIP is in early stages, so this is all good brain-food. My original inspiration was to have a character in the same vein as Aang the Last Airbender--who can manipulate all elements rather than  one--hence my conviction that my MC must be a Chosen One. However, I currently have no prophecy or 'Choosers'; the MC is simply (un)fortunate enough to be born in a certain generation, to certain parents.

The primary antagonist is powerful, and commands a fearsome army, but does not have a protagonist-specific weakness... And so I'm starting to think my MC is in fact just a fortunately powerful protagonist! Hmm...

If my MC can command three types of magic--rather than the standard one or two--and people believe him to be their hero, their champion, does their belief make him the Chosen One by definition, regardless of whether he is uniquely suited to 'save the day'? Would he need to land the final blow against the antagonist, or would a significant and critical contribution be enough? Specifically would he fulfil this role, if he were to unite two nations who historically have hated (and killed) each other, and teach them to work together in ways not thought possible, with the end result of victory against a common aggressor?

I fully intend to flesh out the character, playing on the emotional impact of events, and the pressures of expectation (Dalinar, Kaladin, anyone? ). I've found all too often that protagonists / Chosen Ones slide too easily into a role they are not prepared for. I like to compare it to winning the lottery... It'd be incredible, but could you trust people around you after coming into so much money? Would people resent you for winning? Resent you for not giving them what they feel they are worth? And what do you spend it all on...? My MC craves recognition, but hates attention; craves purpose, but hates responsibility... People are grey, characters are grey.

This post is pretty chaotic; in the 45 mins it's taken to write it, I've completely shifted the origin/purpose of this character. A prophecy sounds like a fun endeavour...

Loving this discussion guys and girls. Everyday's a school day.


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 21, 2017)

FifthView said:


> This is like killing John Wick's dog; from that moment forward, John Wick is the "Chosen One" of the tale.



Haha, brilliant.
"So, John, how _did_ you become the Chosen One?"
"Someone shot my dog."


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## Demesnedenoir (Apr 21, 2017)

The Outlaw Josey Wales... you killed his family AND his dog? That's the kicker.

Killing the dog is also one of the greatest trope that just keeps on giving, heh heh.



C. A. Stanley said:


> Haha, brilliant.
> "So, John, how _did_ you become the Chosen One?"
> "Someone shot my dog."


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## Queshire (Apr 21, 2017)

I feel that Harry Potter ultimately deconstructs the idea of the Chosen One. Right from the get go he was the Boy Who Lived, but as the books go along he eventually winds up getting all sorts of sh*t dumped on him. It gets to the point that we winds up getting portrayed as an attention seeking liar by the wizarding government for saying that Voldemort came back. In the end it wasn't some prophecy that matters but the choices of people, Harry's choices and Voldemorts that matter.


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## pmmg (Apr 21, 2017)

I thought the dog was the chosen one up to the moment of its death, and then the mantle was passed...

Not sure if John Wick meets the chosen one mold, but I think he is defined as such when the villain tells us he is a man with singular focus who killed three men with a pencil--WITH A PENCIL. John was already one of the chosen ones at that point, we were just then clued into it.


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## Demesnedenoir (Apr 21, 2017)

If you're a chosen one, I think you can expect a whole lot of shit dumped on you, it's part of the gig. Heck, you might even be forced to drag your own crucifix like Brian! Of course he wasn't the Messiah, he was a very naughty boy... but still!

Follow the Gourd!



Queshire said:


> I feel that Harry Potter ultimately deconstructs the idea of the Chosen One. Right from the get go he was the Boy Who Lived, but as the books go along he eventually winds up getting all sorts of sh*t dumped on him. It gets to the point that we winds up getting portrayed as an attention seeking liar by the wizarding government for saying that Voldemort came back. In the end it wasn't some prophecy that matters but the choices of people, Harry's choices and Voldemorts that matter.


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## FifthView (Apr 21, 2017)

Devouring Wolf said:


> So, basically if you can answer the questions:  Why this person? Why now? then you're good to go.



I think that this boils down the issue pretty well.

Basically, the author is always the chooser of the Chosen One.

But why this One, this particular character, with these particular abilities, involved in these particular events, leading to this particular outcome? For some readers, "Because the Prophecy [that I, the author, created,] says so" is not a good enough answer.

And really, those questions should probably be answered for every MC, not just super special types called Chosen Ones.


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 21, 2017)

FifthView said:


> But why this One, this particular character, with these particular abilities, involved in these particular events, leading to this particular outcome? For some readers, "Because the Prophecy [that I, the author, created,] says so" is not a good enough answer.



I think that's fair. My original plan was to have it be almost a 'natural phenomenon', but I think if I throw in a workable prophecy just to add some spice and intrigue, the two will work nicely together (I still don't have it 100% thought out, but I will get there).


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## FifthView (Apr 21, 2017)

C. A. Stanley said:


> My original inspiration was to have a character in the same vein as Aang the Last Airbender--who can manipulate all elements rather than  one--hence my conviction that my MC must be a Chosen One. However, I currently have no prophecy or 'Choosers'; the MC is simply (un)fortunate enough to be born in a certain generation, to certain parents.
> 
> [...]
> 
> If my MC can command three types of magic--rather than the standard one or two--and people believe him to be their hero, their champion, does their belief make him the Chosen One by definition, regardless of whether he is uniquely suited to 'save the day'? Would he need to land the final blow against the antagonist, or would a significant and critical contribution be enough? Specifically would he fulfil this role, if he were to unite two nations who historically have hated (and killed) each other, and teach them to work together in ways not thought possible, with the end result of victory against a common aggressor?



Does he need to be a "Chosen One" in the story? I mean, do you feel that being known as such is important, either known as such by people in your fictional world or by those outside it reading the story?

I think that maybe the issue is motivation for your character. Look at John Wick again. He had a motivation. But it wasn't simply that his dog was killed. It was also the fact that the dog had been the last gift given to him by his recently deceased wife–after she'd died, even. So the blow he felt was greater than having lost a pet.

It seems to me that you are looking for a way to make him "The Chosen One" in order to avoid having to isolate any other motivation.  He does what he does because...he is chosen, or he is the only one capable of doing much, or he's born at the wrong time and place. But these aren't necessarily motivations.

What is his personal stake?

In part, your lack of clarity on what he would need to do also speaks to a lack of real motivation for this character. What's he _want_ to do? What's he _driven_ to do?


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 21, 2017)

FifthView said:


> Does he need to be a "Chosen One" in the story? I mean, do you feel that being known as such is important, either known as such by people in your fictional world or by those outside it reading the story?
> 
> I think that maybe the issue is motivation for your character. Look at John Wick again. He had a motivation. But it wasn't simply that his dog was killed. It was also the fact that the dog had been the last gift given to him by his recently deceased wife—after she'd died, even. So the blow he felt was greater than having lost a pet.
> 
> ...



I realise I haven't given enough information to give context to my character.

He travels north on a dangerous journey, in order to find a remedy (medicine, healing magic) to save his dying mother. Whilst he is away, there are many attacks on his home continent (Ahtesk), by agents of a foreign nation (Ferneru). Many townspeople are killed across the western Ahtessi coast, including the whole of his home town, his family included. When he returns, finally able to heal his mother, he finds that she is already dead. The guilt at being absent, and his anger at the destruction of everything he loved, drive him to push forward his nation's war effort against the perpetrators. Basically a vengeance motive.

MC commands three types of magic as a direct result of his parentage (each parent was born on each of the two other continents in this world), and the 'supernatural' influence of Ishar, which is the name for the magical energy in the world (I suppose could be seen as a god, as it shows some signs of being sentient). The Ishar _knows_ that a war is coming, which will cause great global upheaval, and so bestows special power upon anyone with specific parentage (in this case, only the MC). He is not specifically chosen to be an opposing force to the antagonist of the story, it is a natural quirk that happens every time the world faces danger (if there is someone of appropriate parentage).

I should have shared this info originally! My bad.

I feel he needs to be _seen_ as the Chosen One, as it will force him into a position of expectation and responsibility. He _is_ proactive in this sense, but I feel the additional 'dependence' of those around him will provide an interesting internal/external dynamic, and personal struggle.

I welcome your thoughts. I'm still ironing out the kinks.


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## Penpilot (Apr 21, 2017)

Sorry, I couldn't resist. 

Personally, I don't have any issue with a chosen one. It's all in how the story is written. I don't really have much to offer because most of it has been said already. I'll just echo that just because they're the chosen one, doesn't mean they don't have to earn things. I think many a look askance at the mention of a chosen one is due to someone just being handed something without facing  any real challenges. 

Fine, someone has tremendous power or someone has natural aptitude for something and doing that thing comes easy, but it doesn't mean they have the wisdom to control or wield this power or skill properly. 

A few of my favorite chosen ones are Buffy and the Avatars Ang and Korra.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Apr 21, 2017)

I dislike chosen ones in almost every sense of the word. 

1. Chosen ones who are the only ones who can save the world or something. I like my heroes average joes who choose their destinies, or just so happen to have an important role. 

2. Chosen ones with special powers no one else has. I prefer the MC to be of the un-special sort, maybe with skills, but extraordinary magic powers...I only like those if the hero has to undergo immense hardship and difficulty to use/control their powers. 

3. Chosen ones picked by a prophecy. I hate prophecies; id rather the MC end up in their situation by an accident and eventually have to choose to be the hero. 

(What can be gleaned from this: I like my heroes to be driven by their CHOICES, not by a prophecy or by magical powers that dropped out of the sky on their heads like bird crap. Also I like the hero to struggle, and hate it when it appears that the hero must inevitably succeed.) 

But a concept itself can't really be bad. A story in the idea stage is SchrÃ¶dinger's cat; it's not bad or good (or bad and good at the same time? lol) until the book is written. And I could like a chosen one story. 

I mean, I loved Harry Potter, but disliked the chosen one part...

Maybe you could look into what is so appealing about the chosen one trope, and why it is so common, and use that.


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## La Volpe (Apr 22, 2017)

I don't feel strongly about the Chosen One trope either way, really. But I noticed something that Dragon wrote that I thought needed some commentary.



DragonOfTheAerie said:


> (What can be gleaned from this: I like my heroes to be driven by their CHOICES, not by a prophecy or by magical powers that dropped out of the sky on their heads like bird crap. Also I like the hero to struggle, and hate it when it appears that the hero must inevitably succeed.)



You seem to be implying that the Chosen One trope causes characters to not be driven by choices? And that Chosen One characters don't struggle?

A Chosen One doesn't need to be a choiceless mannequin. That's got nothing to do with the trope. Chosen One characters make story-defining decisions all the time. E.g. choosing to accept the destiny thrust upon their shoulders, choosing to deliver the final blow as the prophecy says they must, or choosing to abandon friends and go fulfill their destiny or save their friends and let the world go to hell. Stuff like that.
Ender's Game is a very good example of this (I see him as a Chosen One, since he is chosen by the governments and thrust into training to defeat the Buggers):


Spoiler: Ender's Game



Ender is trained and raised to become this super general person. Partway through his training, he becomes very rebellious against this idea, and against the people trying to mould him. And most strikingly, he ends up going against the wishes of his superiors (even though that inadvertently ends up with the result they'd wanted).



As for the struggling, I'm also not convinced that Chosen Ones, by nature of their Chosen-ness, struggle less than other characters. They still need to make hard decisions. Do I leave my family to go and do a mission this old bearded guy tells me I'm destined to do? Do I kill this baby because I was chosen to destroy all the evil guys, down to their children? And if your hero is stronger than your villain and/or his henchmen, that's again not a characteristic of the Chosen One trope.

As for them inevitably having to succeed, I'm not sure what you could mean. That the prophecy states they'll do it? That's no guarantee. Just look at Anakin. That sure wasn't how Obi-wan thought it would turn out. And many Chosen Ones end up trying to subvert the prophecy, only to have to twist around back in a way they didn't expect. And besides, all stories with comedy (as opposed to tragedy) endings will inevitably have the hero succeed, and all tragedy stories with end with the hero failing. The Chosen One trope doesn't affect that at all.


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## ThinkerX (Apr 22, 2017)

I suppose I have a couple of 'Chosen Ones' in my stories.

Titus Maximus is a minor scion of a major aristocratic family in the Solarian Empire - but his mother hailed from the 'Great Maze,' a sort of magical labyrinth on the far side of the world.  That heritage gave him a connection to the animating essence of the Great Maze, as well as the minor bonus of a near infallible sense of direction.  

Li-Pang...perhaps not so much 'chosen' as 'possessed,' though even that term is misleading.  More of an avatar for a insane deity of creation and chaos, something he deals with by 'selective amnesia' - deliberately not remembering much of his true nature.  To most people, he is a wandering Asian type with a perpetual vacant expression, earning a living as a flutist, cook, or menial.


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## FifthView (Apr 22, 2017)

C. A. Stanley said:


> When he returns, finally able to heal his mother, he finds that she is already dead. The guilt at being absent, and his anger at the destruction of everything he loved, drive him to push forward his nation's war effort against the perpetrators. Basically a vengeance motive.



This sounds like a good motivation.

I'm a little uncertain as to why he might fight the expectations others have placed on him, or be disincentivized by those expectations, however. [Or, feel "forced" to take up the task by expectations.] If he is extremely motivated to go to war and others want him to participate in a prominent way, then I'd think that maybe he'd be more than willing to try to fulfill their expectations even while feeling the weight of those expectations.

On the other hand, I've encountered examples in real life (including doing this myself) in which some person strongly advocates some course of action but when he receives the answer, "Ok! Sounds Great! You can do it!" he backs off with a "Whoa...uh, no, I didn't mean _I_ would do it!" I can't say this is a very admirable response, heh. But it's one thing to try to convince others to do something and a very different thing to take on the task all by oneself.



> MC commands three types of magic as a direct result of his parentage (each parent was born on each of the two other continents in this world), and the 'supernatural' influence of Ishar, which is the name for the magical energy in the world (I suppose could be seen as a god, as it shows some signs of being sentient). The Ishar _knows_ that a war is coming, which will cause great global upheaval, and so bestows special power upon anyone with specific parentage (in this case, only the MC). He is not specifically chosen to be an opposing force to the antagonist of the story, it is a natural quirk that happens every time the world faces danger (if there is someone of appropriate parentage).



So in a way, this seems like a fortuitous "accident." He wants vengeance; he has the tools for it.

I've read your comment multiple times and have been mulling over it, trying to put into perspective something that seems related. It seems important, but I'm not sure how important. Here goes:

I've often found myself starting the conceptualization phase of a new project by first creating a hero that I really like, creating abilities, personality, history, whatever. And then, once that's done, I focus on finding a story and/or plot that I really like. Or sometimes it's the other way around. Sometimes it's not an absolute focus on first one then the other, but I feel more drawn to one for a bit until I move more into the other. And then I reach a point, moving more into specifics, where I try mashing these two things together.

And run smack into a brick wall or thorny, shadow-enshrouded maze.

I think there's something to be said for designing the character specifically to fit a given scenario, rather than trying to mash an already-conceived character into a scenario—i.e., rather than consider the two things as being largely separate.

So, relating this to what you've described so far about your story...I've noticed that the powers, your MC's situation, his history are described as being circumstantial—actually, incidental?—or an accident; he is "simply (un)fortunate enough to be born in a certain generation, to certain parents," and so forth. In a way, this is like an avoidance of "Chosen Oneness," in the sense that he's just an accidental hero, fortunately the wielder of special magic that will come in handy but not particularly designed especially for the situation.

And I can buy that. 

But I don't think designing a character specifically for a plot and set of events is particularly _wrong_. In fact, I think that's usually a great thing to do.

The trick is to make everything seem organic, interconnected—each aspect is important for the story, not merely incidental—without making this character seem like a perfect robot or Superman or Mary Sue designed to thrash the villain without breaking a sweat.

Anyway...there's something about the interplay of randomness vs determinism to be considered. But I also think that what goes on behind the scenes (what the author does when designing the story) is different than how the reader might experience it, or often ought to be.



> I feel he needs to be _seen_ as the Chosen One, as it will force him into a position of expectation and responsibility. He _is_ proactive in this sense, but I feel the additional 'dependence' of those around him will provide an interesting internal/external dynamic, and personal struggle.



^This happens all the time in fantasy tales with characters not typically thought of as Chosen Ones. I.e., kings and queens, princes and princesses, generals, court wizards, court covens:  People with some power and authority are expected to take care of important business. These characters are often shown to be cognizant of the burden placed upon them. Sometimes they fret that they are incapable of meeting expectations. Sometimes they run from responsibility or try to deny it. Etc.

The difference between those and your MC seems to be the suddenness of the burden, or the unexpectedness. He wasn't born into that position, didn't seek that kind of position. But otherwise, there's a similarity.


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 22, 2017)

Thanks for the posts... I don't have time to read/reply atm but will come back this afternoon/evening.


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## Deleted member 4265 (Apr 22, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> (What can be gleaned from this: I like my heroes to be driven by their CHOICES, not by a prophecy or by magical powers that dropped out of the sky on their heads like bird crap. Also I like the hero to struggle, and hate it when it appears that the hero must inevitably succeed.)



But this is precisely why I love a good chosen one story. In my opinion there's no better medium to delve into the question of free will or the feeling of being trapped in your own life, unable to alter the coarse. 

Minority Report is one of my favorite movies, and although not a chosen one story in the strictest sense, its about a man struggling against what he's been told is his destiny. I thought The Matrix also handled the idea of a chosen one quite well.

Besides not every prophecy is a guarantee of success and even if it was, there can still be quite a bit of suspense because even if victory is guaranteed, that doesn't mean it won't have a high price.

Feel free to dislike chosen one stories, that's all personal preference, but I take umbrage with the idea chosen one protagonists have no agency.


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## FifthView (Apr 22, 2017)

Devouring Wolf said:


> But this is precisely why I love a good chosen one story. In my opinion there's no better medium to delve into the question of free will or the feeling of being trapped in your own life, unable to alter the coarse.



I've been wondering if the heavy focus on the first part of the phrase in this discussion, Chosen, might be distracting from the second part, One.

Delving into that question of freedom vs being trapped is made more interesting if the character is indeed the only one who can do anything meaningful and lasting about the situation.


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 22, 2017)

FifthView said:


> (1) I'm a little uncertain as to why he might fight the expectations others have placed on him, or be disincentivized by those expectations, however. [Or, feel "forced" to take up the task by expectations.] If he is extremely motivated to go to war and others want him to participate in a prominent way, then I'd think that maybe he'd be more than willing to try to fulfill their expectations even while feeling the weight of those expectations.
> 
> (2) I've often found myself starting the conceptualization phase of a new project by first creating a hero that I really like, creating abilities, personality, history, whatever. And then, once that's done, I focus on finding a story and/or plot that I really like. Or sometimes it's the other way around. Sometimes it's not an absolute focus on first one then the other, but I feel more drawn to one for a bit until I move more into the other. And then I reach a point, moving more into specifics, where I try mashing these two things together.
> 
> ...



I'm going to break this reply up into 3 parts to match the above comments I find most critical...

(1) My MC doesn't specifically fight against the expectations of others, but struggles--as most people would--with expectation itself. Even though he is highly motivated to go to war, it's something he's not prepared for mentally, and he doesn't quite know how to deal with being 'put on a pedestal' (he is also reviled by others, but he is used to this). In his past, his intelligence has meant peers, and even adults in his home town, are intimidated by him, and as people often do when intimidated or 'shamed', they alienate. MC struggles with the sudden change in perception; when you're used to trying to fly under the radar, it's overwhelming to suddenly be a deafening BLIP that people can't help but notice.

(2) So, FifthView, as you have deftly noticed, I am very much in the _conceptualisation_ stage... This 'WIP' was originally just a fun way of putting ideas into words, and focussing my overthinking mind... As I developed ideas, and starting truly building the geography of the world, the religions, main characters etc. it became a more serious project. As I'm sure many writers can relate to, I struggle to avoid procrastination lol. It's only now that I feel I have enough material to start really writing (probs 65,000 words of notes) that I'm realising just how much I have left to do in terms of synchronising character arcs and plot vectors (I LOVE world building so much that I've neglected the nitty gritty parts of storytelling). Your idea of 'mashing' character and plot together is exactly what's happening atm, and your comments are really helping me to straighten out certain crucial factors in my mind.

(3) I'm going to work backwards here... What goes on behind the scenes is far more intimate and detailed than the reader will ever have access to, which is a shame really. There are so many aspects of my world that I instinctively understand now, that will be tough to relay in prose to the reader. As you mention, 'organic' is the most important thing for me; there's no point being awed if your disbelief is shattered, and I want the readers to feel that this world is as _real_ as the one we all love to escape from.
I like the idea of an 'accidental hero', and think I've probably convinced myself that I need to ensure the MC is a Chosen One, when it's not necessary at all. Accidental hero is also a figure that readers can relate to more easily - I can't think of any 'Chosen Ones' in real life (excluding religious figures), though there are many heroes who live normal lives. Chosen One thread effectively considered null and void lol.
On your point regarding randomness vs determinism, determinism is not something I feel comfortable with, and so the conditions of the story allow for full freedom of will - although the character's powers are determined for him at birth, every step after that is his to make. He's going to make this journey as anyone would... with apprehension, fear, excitement, doubt. And he is going to do his fair share of sweating I assure you.


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 22, 2017)

Penpilot said:


> Sorry, I couldn't resist.



No apology necessary, I was considering a PokÃ©mon reference myself (grew up on that shit, I love it ).

Ash was clearly not the Chosen One, after all, I never heard "Ash, I choose you!"


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 22, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I dislike chosen ones in almost every sense of the word.
> 
> 1. Chosen ones who are the only ones who can save the world or something. I like my heroes average joes who choose their destinies, or just so happen to have an important role.
> 
> ...



Totally your prerogative Dragon. I admit, I used to *hate* the Chosen One trope until I saw what Brandon Sanderson did with it. And I certainly see the attraction of your relatable average joe making waves... after all, are we not all average joes? If I was a first rate assassin maybe I would disagree lol.

I think the trope is so popular because people want to be inspired and awed. People want to see someone do something that they could never do (Usain Bolt, Cristiano Ronaldo?). Is that just human nature? I mean, if I had the chance to see someone shoot lasers from their eyes, I would damn well take it, even though I'd feel like a pathetic specific afterwards.


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 22, 2017)

Demesnedenoir said:


> My favorite Chosen One is Brian, from the Life of Brian, heh heh.



Ok so I only watched Life of Brian for the first time last night, by your inadvertent recommendation... Brian must be _the_ funniest Chosen One of all time. Brilliant. "Consider the lilies..."


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Apr 22, 2017)

C. A. Stanley said:


> Totally your prerogative Dragon. I admit, I used to *hate* the Chosen One trope until I saw what Brandon Sanderson did with it. And I certainly see the attraction of your relatable average joe making waves... after all, are we not all average joes? If I was a first rate assassin maybe I would disagree lol.
> 
> I think the trope is so popular because people want to be inspired and awed. People want to see someone do something that they could never do (Usain Bolt, Cristiano Ronaldo?). Is that just human nature? I mean, if I had the chance to see someone shoot lasers from their eyes, I would damn well take it, even though I'd feel like a pathetic specific afterwards.



In the case of chosen Ones having unique/incredible powers: Somehow I prefer characters who are mundanely skilled rather than magically gifted, or who gain skills (magical or otherwise) throughout the story. If magically gifted, nothing special. Somehow I appreciate wildly powerful characters as side characters rather than main characters. 

I tend to associate Chosen One with being forced into playing a role instead of having to choose to play that role. Also, I associate it with some kind of pre-determined fate the MC can't affect. 

Basically, I don't like it when characters are special/the only one who can defeat the big bad/the only hope because they just are. I have trouble articulating it, but "specialness" is generally something I don't like in an MC. 

(Especially when the MC is unskilled, kind of dumb, and really undeserving of being given the job of saving the world. I JUST read a book exactly like that. Not saying all Chosen One books are like that, but there are too many books like that. Probably part of my bias against chosen ones. I guess maybe I like characters with skills rather than powers because it seems like they "deserve" their hero status? Instead of just being stuck with it? Idk really.) 

I definitely could enjoy a story with a Chosen One if they weren't the main character. If the MC was the overlooked best friend of the Chosen One...I wish someone would do that. 

But, yeah. This is all my personal preference. And I haven't read Sanderson. (Probably because I tend to veer away from more traditional fantasy in my reading tastes anyway.)


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## FifthView (Apr 23, 2017)

C. A. Stanley said:


> I like the idea of an 'accidental hero', and think I've probably convinced myself that I need to ensure the MC is a Chosen One, when it's not necessary at all. Accidental hero is also a figure that readers can relate to more easily - I can't think of any 'Chosen Ones' in real life (excluding religious figures), though there are many heroes who live normal lives. Chosen One thread effectively considered null and void lol.
> 
> On your point regarding randomness vs determinism, determinism is not something I feel comfortable with, and so the conditions of the story allow for full freedom of will - although the character's powers are determined for him at birth, every step after that is his to make. He's going to make this journey as anyone would... with apprehension, fear, excitement, doubt. And he is going to do his fair share of sweating I assure you.



My idea of randomness vs determinism is only tentative.  I'm only recently coming to a new way of thinking about these as they relate to a) the author's method of conceptualization vs b) the reader's experience of the story.

A lot of times, I've begun with an "accidental hero" concept: an everyday sort of fellow, albeit with some peculiar power or ability, who starts out living a routine, insignificant life, but who becomes "embroiled' in a larger struggle due to seemingly random circumstances.

I like this idea an awful lot or at least am drawn to it.

*Determinism:* 

Consider this word as _what the author does_ rather than how a reader perceives the character's path. 

When I conceive of the character separate from the plot, then just throw him into the midst of things through accidental circumstance to see what happens, I may not be using determinism. And I think this might be a problem, maybe a huge stumbling block as I proceed to consider the plot and story of the novel. When I come to those questions, _Why this character, why here and now, why these developments, why this path through the plot_...I might have difficulty answering them.

So I think I should first answer those questions, use some determinism. This character is going to succeed because he possesses X, Y, Z qualities and/or because he possess A, B, C powers. _He's particularly suited to the task at hand._

*Randomness:*

But the reader may not realize all that until near the closing credits. Tension, the roller-coaster ride through the story, hope and dread require that the reader _not_ feel that the outcome has already been determined. At least, the reader should have some doubt and wonder _how_ the hero will succeed.

That said, I think it's typically important to give the reader hints of the hero's worthiness throughout the story, a suspicion that this is a special character particularly suited to the task at hand. This keeps the reader tied to the story: he wants to see his suspicion confirmed, he wants to learn how that character was suited to the task. Also, at the end of the story, the reader might then be able to look back and say, _Of *course* this hero was perfect for the task at hand!_

I've been thinking of _Game of Thrones_ as an example. GRRM's world allows for all kinds of doubt and changes in fortune. But all the principle characters who are still alive at the end of season six are starting to feel like Chosen Ones. They were particularly suited for whatever circumstances arose in their individual plot arcs. In contrast, those characters who have died were _not_ suited to the task at hand due to excessive idealism, a lack of ambition, hubris, or some other weakness. (Sometimes, this weakness was merely relative given a particular foe's qualities.)

In a way, the reader might suspect that some determinism is at play but not be certain about this.

So....

This way of looking at things shaped my earlier comment. But how you approach providing those hints is another huge discussion, because there are many methods and things you could do to keep from spilling all the beans at once in a "Prophecy said so!" kind of way.


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## lonelyboy1977 (Apr 23, 2017)

As with any overused trope, it depends how it is utilised. If you can do something original with it, in addition to writing a compelling marrative, then it's less likely readers will view your story as something they've read numerous times before.

As an example, Buffy Summers was a "Chosen One" but she didn't fit the archetype. On the surface, she appears to be the archetypal blonde bimbo who gets killed in a slasher movie on account of being too stupid to live.


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## Demesnedenoir (Apr 23, 2017)

Always good to spread the teachings of Brian.

Much of my sense of humor can be blamed on Monty Python in general, and the Life of Brian specifically. Just an awesome movie. 



C. A. Stanley said:


> Ok so I only watched Life of Brian for the first time last night, by your inadvertent recommendation... Brian must be _the_ funniest Chosen One of all time. Brilliant. "Consider the lilies..."


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## glutton (Apr 23, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> In the case of chosen Ones having unique/incredible powers: Somehow I prefer characters who are mundanely skilled rather than magically gifted, or who gain skills (magical or otherwise) throughout the story. If magically gifted, nothing special. Somehow I appreciate wildly powerful characters as side characters rather than main characters.
> 
> I tend to associate Chosen One with being forced into playing a role instead of having to choose to play that role. Also, I associate it with some kind of pre-determined fate the MC can't affect.
> 
> ...



I prefer ones who are the best (or one of the best) and special _because_ of their skills. They tend to have superhuman (by real world standards) physical attributes too but it's attributed more to their training and some degree of inborn talent than explicit magical gifts. Cute warrior champions.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Apr 23, 2017)

glutton said:


> I prefer ones who are the best (or one of the best) and special _because_ of their skills. They tend to have superhuman (by real world standards) physical attributes too but it's attributed more to their training and some degree of inborn talent than explicit magical gifts. Cute warrior champions.



Yeah, I like that kind of thing a lot better than inborn magical powers or "specialness" from birth.


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## Tom (Apr 23, 2017)

I agree with Dragon, I prefer heroes who are not chosen to be so. It makes it all the more powerful when an ordinary person saves the day through their own skills and sheer determination, not because the gods or a prophecy or magic selected them to and gave them everything they need to accomplish it. "Destiny" cheapens it for me; it feels like the hero is being compelled by an outside force to do the right thing, rather than make a choice to do it simply because it *is* the right thing. 

If anything, most of my protagonists have turned out to be the exact opposite of the chosen one trope. Anti-Chosen Ones, if you will. A lot of them have everything set up for them to make the wrong choice, to continue in a path that they are being told is right but they know is wrong. They all make a conscious decision to break away from that path, equipped with only what natural talents they possess and anything they have learned for themselves, to do what they realize is the right thing. Destiny doesn't exist, and the gods don't care. It's up to ordinary people to recognize evil and do something about it themselves, without someone telling them they are supposed to. This kind of story is very real and very powerful, and that's why it appeals to me so much.


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## Nobby (Apr 23, 2017)

Erm, so.

You can have a chosen one who accepts the call.

Like an egomaniac.

Or.

You can have a chosen one who denies the call (not getting into the thrice denied then giving in here).

Like an egomaniac.

Or.

You can have a chosen one who says, "Pardon?"

Sorry


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## FifthView (Apr 23, 2017)

"I have chosen you for a great task," Hebob said. He smiled at Cheros, and the glow from his face was not of light but something approaching pure love. "The Emerni are corrupting the land and will soon enter Yuba. But you will stop them."

Cheros said nothing. His body felt molded to the earth below him, incapable of movement but not heavy. Complete contentment flooded his muscles, as if his limbs had existed in this state forever, one with the land.

The god rose into the air, still gazing at Cheros with love. "You will soon discover the path to your success, a power you have never imagined possible. Your countrymen will look to you for salvation. Fear not, for the end is written!"

With those final words, Hebob disappeared. The evening light reappeared, and Cheros felt movement return.

The image of Hebob remained within his mind, but his body felt weary. _Enough of this sh*t_, he thought. _I still have a jewel to steal._

Cheros left the ruined pavilion with nothing but the jewel and his filthy room at the Traveler's Rest guiding his feet. He'd need his sleep; tomorrow would be a long day.​
[Eventually, circumstances will force Cheros to confront the Emerni. Something about being cornered, his true love murdered by them, and no path left open to sell the jewel--at least until he can turn them away. I don't know; planning stages, heh.]


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## Nobby (Apr 23, 2017)

Or you can have a chosen one with sh*t to do...

Forgot that one.

*genuine grin*


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## Demesnedenoir (Apr 23, 2017)

Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? 

Does someone fulfill a prophecy because a propecy says they will, or do they fulfill the prophecy because they were going to do it anyhow, and someone who sees the future writes it down?

There's an obvious argument against the uber-powered chosen one, but its the same argument against any uber-powered character. Prophecy and chosen ones don't alleviate the MC of choices, hardships, flaws, character growth or atrophy or the possibility of losing/dying. 

The greatest uber-powered character of all time is, of course, Groo the Wanderer.


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## X Equestris (Apr 24, 2017)

Devouring Wolf said:


> Besides not every prophecy is a guarantee of success and even if it was, there can still be quite a bit of suspense because even if victory is guaranteed, that doesn't mean it won't have a high price.



While true in theory, I can't recall the last time I saw a prophecy that was flat out wrong.  It's much like heroes dying.  It's possible, but experience tells you it's not going to happen.  Those instances where it does occur stand out because they smash that preconception.  

It's certainly true that you can keep tension over the costs of victory, though all too often authors don't make those costs very meaningful to their audience.  Unless characters they've come to know and love are hurt in some way (from physical pain/death, to mental anguish, to not achieving one of their goals), the cost isn't felt.  All too many chosen one stories gloss over that.  

Whenever I run across a chosen one story, I'm a little wary.  Staleness in handling the trope is one reason.  Chosen Ones all too often being Mary Sues is another.  I have no problem with the trope if it's a fresh new usage, though.  It's just going to take more to get me to stick around for the whole thing when a Chosen One is involved.

That said, I have been toying around with the idea of writing a novel where the "Chosen One" fails, partly inspired by the Bar Kokhba Revolt.  Seems like a good way to deal with expectations and preconceptions about what a Chosen One acts like, and how one failing would impact a culture.


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 24, 2017)

FifthView said:


> *Determinism:*
> 
> Consider this word as _what the author does_ rather than how a reader perceives the character's path.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the clarification, I'm on the same page now. It's a very interesting point. One might suggest it's the whole foundation of storytelling! probably best not to get into the topic further...

I love what Martin did in GoT, at no point did I know who the _main_ character was supposed to be (the TV show totally spoiled this for me). Some protagonists evolved into antagonists, and vice versa. One of the pros of having a huge number of POV characters


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 24, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I definitely could enjoy a story with a Chosen One if they weren't the main character. If the MC was the overlooked best friend of the Chosen One...I wish someone would do that.


Sounds like a great perspective. I wonder if anyone knows of any novels written from this angle? I'd love to read something like that myself, I imagine could be pretty dark if the author was that was inclined


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 24, 2017)

Nobby said:


> Or you can have a chosen one with sh*t to do...
> 
> Forgot that one.
> 
> *genuine grin*



Love this one  YOU NEED TO SAVE THE WORLD, YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE! Sorry, I'm busy.


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 24, 2017)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Prophecy and chosen ones don't alleviate the MC of choices, hardships, flaws, character growth or atrophy or the possibility of losing/dying.


Totally agree with this. I really want to play with the idea of the 'Chosen One' being his own worst enemy... At what point does somebody become a danger to themselves and those around them? The old adage says with great power comes great responsibility, but I feel the idea that great power leads to great danger is somewhat underrepresented. The greater ones station, the greater the consequences of any decisions and actions made


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## ThinkerX (Apr 24, 2017)

C. A. Stanley said:


> Love this one  YOU NEED TO SAVE THE WORLD, YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE! Sorry, I'm busy.



One of our boarders is writing just such a story.  Or was, been a while since he popped in.



> definitely could enjoy a story with a Chosen One if they weren't the main character. If the MC was the overlooked best friend of the Chosen One...I wish someone would do that.



I do recollect a few such stories.  Alas, their titles escape me at the moment.

One story I have been considering for a long while now ('Pilgrimage') would pretty much have to be told from this perspective.  It'll probably be ages before I get to it, though I do have a couple of excerpts and old stories featuring other characters.


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 24, 2017)

X Equestris said:


> That said, I have been toying around with the idea of writing a novel where the "Chosen One" fails, partly inspired by the Bar Kokhba Revolt.  Seems like a good way to deal with expectations and preconceptions about what a Chosen One acts like, and how one failing would impact a culture.



Definitely something I'd be interested in reading - powerful movements tend to create their own powerful opposition (obviously in this case the opposition was already there, but it initiated a stronger and more devastating counteroffensive). The very act of seeking success can sometimes induce failure. History gives so many great ideas for situations that went right / wrong / got out of hand etc.

On a slight tangent... In my WIP, my MC achieves what he needs to, but in doing so causes so much destruction that the world is changed forever (Pyrrhic victory I guess). Another thing I think is underrepresented in fantasy


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 24, 2017)

ThinkerX said:


> One of our boarders is writing just such a story.  Or was, been a while since he popped in.
> 
> I do recollect a few such stories.  Alas, their titles escape me at the moment.
> 
> One story I have been considering for a long while now ('Pilgrimage') would pretty much have to be told from this perspective.  It'll probably be ages before I get to it, though I do have a couple of excerpts and old stories featuring other characters.



If the 'Chosen One' goes down that path (I'm too busy, lol), how exactly would the story play out? Would the story follow the MC's normal life, whilst the _big stuff_ goes on in the background?

Pilgrimage - is this just an idea at the moment or do you have some planning in place?


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## Demesnedenoir (Apr 24, 2017)

With great power and expectations can come, isolation, depression, and who knows how many other negatives. Plus one can be "chosen' for something they don't want to become or do, much like a story of a mortal child of Satan discovering who they are and what is expected of them. 

The trope has unlimited variants, so whether you hate or love it probably comes down to how narrow one's definition is of "chosen one". 



C. A. Stanley said:


> Totally agree with this. I really want to play with the idea of the 'Chosen One' being his own worst enemy... At what point does somebody become a danger to themselves and those around them? The old adage says with great power comes great responsibility, but I feel the idea that great power leads to great danger is somewhat underrepresented. The greater ones station, the greater the consequences of any decisions and actions made


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## FifthView (Apr 24, 2017)

Beyond other possibilities...I've been thinking of how things can go terribly wrong when you hire a new employee, elevate a CEO, or elect a public official: Chosen Ones can sometimes do unexpected things.

I mean, you spend centuries trying to create the Kwisatz Haderach and....Oops!

But this concept relies heavily on the in-story choosing for defining the Chosen.

The other variant is simply one in which the reader is informed fairly early that MC is going to be the special one who will invariably solve things, defeat the antagonistic force, by the end of the story. Funny enough, that's typically expected of certain types of story; reader just sticks around to see how it will happen. Perhaps a clever writer will use some smoke and mirrors to present an illusion of indeterminacy, but the reader doesn't really believe all that, in his heart.



Demesnedenoir said:


> With great power and expectations can come, isolation, depression, and who knows how many other negatives. Plus one can be "chosen' for something they don't want to become or do, much like a story of a mortal child of Satan discovering who they are and what is expected of them.
> 
> The trope has unlimited variants, so whether you hate or love it probably comes down to how narrow one's definition is of "chosen one".


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## FifthView (Apr 24, 2017)

C. A. Stanley said:


> Thanks for the clarification, I'm on the same page now. It's a very interesting point. One might suggest it's the whole foundation of storytelling! probably best not to get into the topic further...



One consequence of the thought for me personally: My suspicion that I've often complicated the process for myself unnecessarily.

Maybe sometimes, if not always, choosing an easy match for protagonist and antagonist, or MC and antagonistic _force_, is the best course of action rather than, say, picking a protag as far removed from the expected requirements as possible.

Although....this isn't just a matter of picking protag, but also of picking circumstances. (Determinism in both.) So for instance, GRRM could have chosen to have Tyrion or Arya be captured by Ramsay Bolton—making those pairings for opposition—rather than Sansa and Theon. But I think that Sansa and Theon were particularly suited for the task at hand, i.e. surviving Ramsay's sadism. They were inherently weak of character, submissive: just the sort a sadist would keep alive in order to toy with.

But the problem one might run into conceptually: a fear of being too "on-the-nose" or designing a Chosen One perfectly suited to the task at hand. For example, if you chose an extremely powerful fire user as your Chosen One...because the villain is an Ice King. But maybe this is an irrational fear, or merely a caution to be considered when you reach the stage of execution of the story.

Similarly, choosing a set of circumstances particularly "fit" for the story might seem like too much shoehorning—but is it? 

So in your story, this MC is chosen "accidentally" or just as a matter of coincidence. But what if he weren't?

Apparently, such individuals have arisen in the past, albeit rarely, and the rareness seems to me (based on the info you've given) to be a result of a mating between a man and woman from two different continents. Your MC is the _only_ person on the entire continent who fits that criteria; so, very rare.* But what if it weren't entirely accidental? Say, his father had some foreknowledge of the coming conflict and traveled to the other continent to find a wife in order to produce your MC? Such a discovery could play into your MC's mental well-being. (What kid doesn't rage against his parents' meddling? Heh.)

This sort of thing could give a reader the sense that what's happening in the story isn't merely all happy/unhappy coincidence, or the writer merely throwing in a Chosen One or set of Chosen Circumstances because that's what he wants. Heh, order in the chaos, and all that.



*Edit: Or is he not the only one with such parentage on the continent, but merely the only one Ishar chose at this time?



> The Ishar _knows_ that a war is coming, which will cause great global upheaval, and so bestows special power upon anyone with specific parentage (in this case, only the MC). He is not specifically chosen to be an opposing force to the antagonist of the story, it is a natural quirk that happens every time the world faces danger (if there is someone of appropriate parentage).



"_*if*_ there is someone of appropriate parentage" —this suggests to me that the condition is exceedingly rare. But your other comments regarding these powers suggest it might not be. People possess one or two of the powers....so are those who possess two...mixed lineage? And your MC just happens to be the only one who gains the third, of those?


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 25, 2017)

FifthView said:


> Maybe sometimes, if not always, choosing an easy match for protagonist and antagonist, or MC and antagonistic _force_, is the best course of action rather than, say, picking a protag as far removed from the expected requirements as possible.
> 
> Although....this isn't just a matter of picking protag, but also of picking circumstances. (Determinism in both.) So for instance, GRRM could have chosen to have Tyrion or Arya be captured by Ramsay Bolton–making those pairings for opposition–rather than Sansa and Theon. But I think that Sansa and Theon were particularly suited for the task at hand, i.e. surviving Ramsay's sadism. They were inherently weak of character, submissive: just the sort a sadist would keep alive in order to toy with.
> 
> ...


 
It's a fine balance, to say the least. What takes precedence - plausibility or practicality? I'm still trying to find the right balance.

The GoT reference is a good one. His character placement was exceptional across the board imo. I'd love to re-read the series and analyse what GRRM does, and how / why, as I'm sure there's a veritable treasure trove of things to learn in there... but it's a huge undertaking!
I wonder how things would play out if he'd made different decisions - Arya the betrothed? Sansa a Faceless agent? Would they have fulfilled the roles given to them in much the same way, or would their vastly different _characters_ have led to vastly different outcomes? I guess we'll never know.



FifthView said:


> *Edit: Or is he not the only one with such parentage on the continent, but merely the only one Ishar chose at this time?
> 
> "_*if*_ there is someone of appropriate parentage" –this suggests to me that the condition is exceedingly rare. But your other comments regarding these powers suggest it might not be. People possess one or two of the powers....so are those who possess two...mixed lineage? And your MC just happens to be the only one who gains the third, of those?


 
It’s slightly more complex than that (I forget that I know it intuitively where others don't, but I will try to explain). A few notes before I begin…

- Travel in this world is *severely* limited due to extreme climate disparities, and hostility between nations (result of a fairly recent bloody war, couple hundred years ago), and so ‘inter-racial’ breeding is extremely uncommon. Some children are of mixed lineage because of traders crossing borders, and occasional mingling in 'disputed territories'.

- The secondary power is significantly inferior to the primary (or at least the potential for growth is massively limited).

- Magic is strongly tied to the land (each continent has a different _flavour_ of magic).

So…

Power in this world is _usually_ determined by a) parentage, and b) land of birth. Due to the magical nature of the powers--and its ties to the land--land is actually the dominant factor over lineage (I neglected to mention this before).
A few examples, where A / B / C refers to *nationality of parent*, and *land of birth*…

Parent A + Parent A + Land A  =  Primary power A + No secondary (99% of world population)

Parent A + Parent A + Land B  =  Primary power B + Secondary power A (<1% of world pop.)

Parent A + Parent B + Land A  =  Primary power A + Secondary power B (<1% of world pop.)

Under normal circumstances, even with the below [practically non-existent!] combination, 2 powers is the max possible:

Parent A + Parent B + Land C  =  Primary power C + Secondary power A / B (dependent upon which parent’s genes are dominant, like… hair colour?)

Now... the third criterion is inconsequential most of the time ('The Determination of Ishar' so-to-speak). It only comes into play when the world-order is at risk, and the world is close to disequilibrium. In this case, only the rarest of combinations is given _special_ power.

Parent A + Parent B + Land C + ‘Global Stress’  =  Power A + B + C

Important to note: if MC is not the only person with combination at the time of Criterion 3 being valid, he would not be the only person with 3 powers! This is a very real possibility for the plot. (How do people react when the ChosenOne is in fact OneOfTheChosenTwo??).

This is the first time I’ve written it out as a ‘formula’… useful.


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## FifthView (Apr 25, 2017)

C. A. Stanley said:


> Important to note: if MC is not the only person with combination at the time of Criterion 3 being valid, he would not be the only person with 3 powers! This is a very real possibility for the plot. (How do people react when the ChosenOne is in fact OneOfTheChosenTwo??).



Would be funny maybe if the villain was OneOfTheChosenTwo, heh. Maybe as a prelude to the final battle, they are having a dÃ©tente, over dinner, discussing who Ishar truly favors. But little does your MC know...the villain has poisoned the meal. 

Or maybe it's the largely-ignored–except when harassed and bullied–stable boy who is the other and ends up saving the day instead of your MC....Lots to play with there.


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## C. A. Stanley (Apr 25, 2017)

FifthView said:


> Would be funny maybe if the villain was OneOfTheChosenTwo, heh. Maybe as a prelude to the final battle, they are having a dÃ©tente, over dinner, discussing who Ishar truly favors. But little does your MC know...the villain has poisoned the meal.
> 
> Or maybe it's the largely-ignored–except when harassed and bullied–stable boy who is the other and ends up saving the day instead of your MC....Lots to play with there.



Haha as much as I like these ideas, I just cannot do that to my MC! Villain being TheOtherOne though is a very feasible possibility...


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## Helen (Apr 25, 2017)

C. A. Stanley said:


> The MC in my WIP would likely be referred to as a Chosen One (though I'm not entirely sure yet if he is or not!).
> 
> I have no issue with this–I think it’s fun to have a singularly powerful character, as long as there are appropriate limits, costs, and balances–but I know there are many fantasy fans who are getting sick of this ‘clichÃ©’.
> 
> ...



Absolutely no problem with it.

I guarantee that very soon a new movie will be released where the main character will be clearly identified as a Chosen One and it'll make a billion dollars.

As with all these things, it's not that it's been done before, but that it's executed well.


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## deilaitha (Apr 26, 2017)

I don't mind "The Chosen One" type character arcs, but I like it when the choosing is more of an accident than the result of a prophecy. In many ways, every main character is a "chosen one" because you, the author, have chosen to make them the center of the story.


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## YoShoKenDai The Dragon (Apr 30, 2017)

My story has many chosen ones...but just because you may be chosen doesn't mean your destined to be great. Power is given but your destiny is not


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## RedAngel (May 1, 2017)

I have some mixed feelings about the "Chosen One".

Choose just about any person from history that did anything. All of them felt like they were chosen in some way or another or special. So it is actually fairly common it would seem. Either by religious right, blood rights, divine nobility, etc. There are tons and tons of examples of this just in history alone before you throw fiction into the mix.

The thing is that I feel it is so over used that the special nature of the star born prophet fortold child of deliverance story has been told to death even though it is somewhat necessary in certain circumstances. Any "chosen one" rise to power story can be done seamlessly and it would still be excepted even if people dislike the trope behind it. There are still many out there who love that type of story.

I am just growing tired of the chosen one stories that the MC surpasses everyone with zero effort or minimal effort that has taken everyone years and years of maximum efforts and the C-O just strolls in and everything is handed over.

I get that most stories do not have the time to develop the characters background training story in order to have things make much more sense in a more realistic time frame. Who would want to read about 10+ years of training? So I get that it is much easier to just use the mantra to streamline things and shoehorn straight into the story,

The other part of the "chosen one" is that while the author is trying to get the main character up to speed with the rest of the supporting characters to take on the antagonist it sets a presidence of power that tends to spiral out of control and especially so in any additional book, stories, films, etc.

I have tried to avoid the chosen one stigma in my own writing. I am going a more distructionist route that affords me the luxary of skipping that whole ability chapter save for some flashbacks at points in time when they are needed.


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## glutton (May 2, 2017)

RedAngel said:


> I am just growing tired of the chosen one stories that the MC surpasses everyone with zero effort or minimal effort that has taken everyone years and years of maximum efforts and the C-O just strolls in and everything is handed over.
> 
> I get that most stories do not have the time to develop the characters background training story in order to have things make much more sense in a more realistic time frame. Who would want to read about 10+ years of training? So I get that it is much easier to just use the mantra to streamline things and shoehorn straight into the story,



I usually prefer to start the protag off with years of training at the beginning of the story (and usually practical experience too) rather than showing them as a complete newbie who then goes through 10 years or whatever of training, sure it makes them seem like less of an "everyman" but no need for every hero to be that and it's not like the noobish Chosen One gifted with remarkable powers is really more of an everyman.


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## Annoyingkid (May 2, 2017)

The Chosen One is an arrogant premise. The implication that it all comes down to one person in the end and that person takes the credit as "chosen" to save the day. What about the hard work of everybody else? Allies who fought and worked to put the chosen one in a position to bring it home?  Unless the Chosen one is doing it all solo, I think there could be _some_ humility  for what is usually a team effort.


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## skip.knox (May 2, 2017)

The trope of a Chosen One comes from a world view in which gods and fate are real. In such a view, either the gods or fate chooses one individual to play a key role in some world-changing event. We can find that trope in the early mythologies of just about every culture. It's not arrogance, it's nearly the opposite of arrogance, for the humans involved are hardly more than chess pieces moved by powers greater than themselves. The lure of the stories lies, in part, in seeing how the humans manage to squeeze out some bit of autonomy. Or, in watching them believe themselves to be free only to discover every step they took led to their doom.

I recognize there are a great many modern fantasy tales in which the hero is chosen only in the sense that he is over-powered. Fate or gods exist in such stories mainly as mechanisms to avoid having to provide believable situations and motives. Such books are the literary equivalent of M80s, because ... explosions.

That's not the fault of the trope, it's the fault of the writer. You know the old saying that an idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it? I'd like to suggest a variation: a trope is not responsible for the people who write it.


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## Gurkhal (May 2, 2017)

It depends on how its done. With a twist I think that "chosen one" can be great fun but I also thinkt that if you just take it out of the box it will be pretty predictable and boring. So something to make the "chosen one" story stand out and be different from other "chosen one" stories, some twist or unseen perspective would've been great. 

As an example of the  on the issue of chosen ones I remember one story written by the Swedish author Niklas Krog which has it essentially be so that two great cosmic forces each picks a champion to fight it out, and then some guy, the protagonist of the books as it would have it, and kills both chosen and thus causing cosmic chaos with the previous orderly fight between two sides with their chosen ones.


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## Ronald T. (May 3, 2017)

I love the "chosen one" type of story.  In fact, it's probably among my top two favorite story types.  All I require from such a story is that the author has the talent to make it interesting, exciting, and believable.  If they do that, they've got me, heart and soul.

And I can't think of any story type that hasn't been done to death, and yet continues to appear again and again.  I believe the reason is simple: most people love these stories.  The secret to being successful with such topics is also simple:  make it interesting and exciting. 

If repetition of a story concept doesn't work, then how do you explain the fact that romance novels sell more books than any other genre?  If there was ever a story type that could be defined as a "cookie cutter" genre, that's it.  But it works.  And why...because people love that kind of story.

It's the same with SFF stories that use the "chosen one" theme.  I still works because so many people continue to love it.  Based on how long these stories have been around, and upon how many continue to be written, as well as produced on film, I doubt they will ever be lost due to lack of interest.  They are simply too enjoyable.

As with any story type, it is only as good as the author's ability to keep the reader interested.  As writers, that's our primary job: make it interesting and believable.  If you can do that, you've got the reader by the short-and-curlies.


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## Crimstone629 (May 18, 2017)

For me, it depends on how the "Chosen One" is written. I honestly don't mind characters who are simply fated by prophecy to do something, especially if they don't want to accept their destiny. Chosen Ones who gain special powers for their status can be good too, but I usually find it has more meaning if they have to learn to properly control that power or if the power has inherent drawbacks. Finally, another good way I can think of to portray a Chosen One (although this doesn't really apply to the one you talked about since it's your protagonist) is to tell the story from the perspective of one of the Chosen One's allies instead, which also allows you to explore how that kind of person affects the world and people around them in ways we don't normally see.


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## Ruru (May 23, 2017)

In general, I'm not a fan of the Chosen One concept. I find it makes a character hard to relate to, especially in the situations where the young newbie suddenly arrives on the scene, can do everything bigger and better than those who have trained all their lives to the same end, and ends up winning the day.

That's not to say that a gifted character doesn't have a place, and I do also enjoy the concept of a Chosen One where, actually, they are no better then anyone else to begin with, but because they were chosen they are conditioned to be the hero that a culture needs them to be. It's the Harry Potter, Neville Longbottom situation: either could have been the 'Chosen One', it was the actions of the villain that decided which it was. Neither had to be 'special' to fulfill the role, they had to find their strength _because_ they had been chosen.

I often struggle reading stories where the MC is special, probably for the same reason that they are hard to relate to. Exceptional circumstances, sure, but innately special is a bit of an off putter.  It was a bit of a heartache to discover my oldest character, one of my two MC's, was exactly that. Being an old character, she was very resistant to change, and I've actually found that the creation of the second MC, who is a much more 'normal' character, has helped to even things out. Especially since this second character has 'got it together' much more than the first!


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## Netardapope (May 23, 2017)

I have no issue with it, so long as you play with the concept. The Chosen One is a character Arc that is integral to the way Humans percieve things, so I find that on a spiritual level, it always resonates with me. However, it is IMMENSELY easy to screw up that kind of story.

Again, it's a matter of adding your own twist. For example, my world has a prophecy, but the main story is not about the Chosen One, rather, the Chosen One's closest follower. Something like that, or an alteration of the typical prophecy can make your Chosen One unique.

A place to start is this: A Chosen One character is easier to define more by how they affect the characters around them than how they themselves are as people. Why not think of how your Chosen One can have a Unique effect on the people around. For example, maybe being so close to the One makes them go slowly insane, or maybe the Chosen One makes thecharacters following start a cult about him.

Of course, it depends on whether you want a "Heroic" Chosen One, or a flawed one. If you want a flawed one, think of the effects his position grant to him. He might be a narcissist, due to how important he is, and so on and so forth.

So, even though people dismiss it so often, the Chosen One is, in my opinion, a trope that still has a lot of room for subversion and innovation.

Sent from my SM-J700M using Tapatalk


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## Deleted member 4265 (May 23, 2017)

I think we need to ask, chosen to do what? There's a lot of dislike here for chosen to save the world/kill the bad guy/make the world a place of everlasting peace and rainbows. And yes, I do roll my eyes at those too, but I would argue that these are bad not because chosen ones are bad but because the goal is pretty vague and uninspiring.

Do you feel the same about a chosen one chosen to destroy the world rather than save it? Or if the chosen one was chosen to be the mother of the hero rather than the hero himself? Or if they were chosen to travel back in time to change the future? 

All I'm saying is that yeah, if you told me a story was about a hero chosen by the gods to defeat the big bad I wouldn't be exited about it. But that's not because I hate chosen ones, its because these stories tend to feature very black and white morality and ill thought out goals (so often these books tell us how evil the villain is but then never tell us how exactly the heroes going to be different besides just not being evil) which I'm not a huge fan of. I'd jump on board with a chosen one story if it had some moral ambiguity and more specific goals than something like "saving the world".


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## DragonOfTheAerie (May 24, 2017)

Devouring Wolf said:


> I think we need to ask, chosen to do what? There's a lot of dislike here for chosen to save the world/kill the bad guy/make the world a place of everlasting peace and rainbows. And yes, I do roll my eyes at those too, but I would argue that these are bad not because chosen ones are bad but because the goal is pretty vague and uninspiring.
> 
> Do you feel the same about a chosen one chosen to destroy the world rather than save it? Or if the chosen one was chosen to be the mother of the hero rather than the hero himself? Or if they were chosen to travel back in time to change the future?
> 
> All I'm saying is that yeah, if you told me a story was about a hero chosen by the gods to defeat the big bad I wouldn't be exited about it. But that's not because I hate chosen ones, its because these stories tend to feature very black and white morality and ill thought out goals (so often these books tell us how evil the villain is but then never tell us how exactly the heroes going to be different besides just not being evil) which I'm not a huge fan of. I'd jump on board with a chosen one story if it had some moral ambiguity and more specific goals than something like "saving the world".



"Chosen one chosen to destroy the world" does sound interesting. Of course, it all depends...

I also agree about black and white morality. The "chosen one" trope (when done in the usual way) can set up the MC to be a beacon of morality that can do no wrong (either actually, or through the lens of the story...it might just end up justifying everything the MC does.) and the villain as Ultimate Evil...It can divide the characters very clearly into good and evil...something I dislike.

I guess the main thing I hate about the trope is that the chosen ones often are either bland everyman types or perfect, flawless Gary Stu/Mary Sues who are good at everything and right about everything. (Or both. As much as I love the Harry Potter books, the protagonist is one of my least favorite examples of a chosen one.) A chosen one who's selfish, morally ambiguous and gets dragged unwillingly into the role would be more interesting than those two, at least.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (May 24, 2017)

> It can divide the characters very clearly into good and evil...something I dislike.
> 
> I guess the main thing I hate about the trope is that the chosen ones often are either bland everyman types or perfect, flawless Gary Stu/Mary Sues who are good at everything and right about everything. (Or both...



I agree. Words can't describe how tired I am of good/evil divisions. 

I have an annoying habit of making my main characters into 'purity sues'--but from a narrative perspective, they are divine/angelic beings who incarnate to help others, and learn valuable lessons along the way, so I guess it works a bit.


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## C. A. Stanley (May 25, 2017)

And what if the CO has 'the power to save the world, or destroy it'? This is far more realistic.

If I were to see a man attacking a woman, and I had a gun, I could just as feasibly shoot the attacker and save the woman, as I could shoot the victim and take the attacker for a pint. Power is subject to the one wielding it.

There is duality to everything and everyone (I'm sure there are some exceptions). We're all 'good' and 'bad'; all situations are good for some and bad for others. As long as you can show the duality in a character and their situation, you're good (goddamn it, not good, you're... on the right path). I like the line "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter", as controversial as that may sound in today's world.

I'd much rather see a morally ambiguous hero do the 'right' thing after much deliberation (or do the wrong thing for the right reasons), than a Gary/Mary doing it because it's what they've always done. Evolution of character is crucial here, to me.


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## Devor (May 25, 2017)

One of my least favorite examples of the Chosen One is the most recent:  Moana.  I love the movie for everything else that's in it, but its use of the Chosen One is flat and by the book.

I mean, Moana was chosen by the ocean as a child to do something the ocean could have done all by itself.  The ocean isn't even given any context.  It's just a magical wave, and it behaves like an animal sidekick.


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## FifthView (May 25, 2017)

C. A. Stanley said:


> I'd much rather see a morally ambiguous hero do the 'right' thing after much deliberation (or do the wrong thing for the right reasons), than a Gary/Mary doing it because it's what they've always done. Evolution of character is crucial here, to me.



I think there's a more general problem of having characters who seem only motivated by the main plot and their single end goal in relation to the plot.

I like books in which the MCs have multiple desires, multiple cares, and have more to deal with than simply killing the bad guy and/or saving the world.

But I don't need a morally ambiguous hero for this. A character genuinely trying to do the right thing but with conflicting paths and desires who is being pulled in multiple directions works also.


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## C. A. Stanley (May 26, 2017)

FifthView said:


> I think there's a more general problem of having characters who seem only motivated by the main plot and their single end goal in relation to the plot.
> 
> I like books in which the MCs have multiple desires, multiple cares, and have more to deal with than simply killing the bad guy and/or saving the world.
> 
> But I don't need a morally ambiguous hero for this. A character genuinely trying to do the right thing but with conflicting paths and desires who is being pulled in multiple directions works also.



Fair point. And I totally agree with you. But if your goal is to save the world, do not all other things pale in comparison?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here


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## FifthView (May 26, 2017)

I think stories with a shorter time scope, and high tension from start to finish, like some thrillers, allow for the one-goal monomaniac of a character. Something like Jack Bauer from _24_ comes to mind. He stays mostly focused on the end result. From what I remember of some early seasons, this wasn't entirely the case; e.g., he would risk sacrificing progress in order to save his daughter or wife or whatever. But for the most part, he stayed on-track with a single dedication. However, one of the tricks in such a story was to divide up the overall quest into many smaller quests–corner a source of information or acquire some information, defeat an antagonist's smaller-scale early attack–so when he's focused on these stages, the sense of monomania is softened. (These end up being like the multiple desires and cares I mentioned before.)

Also, the detective novel can work, in which the detective is always focused on the end result of solving the mystery or crime. Again, though, there are lots of little stages, smaller mysteries to be solved along the way.

Your mention of Mary Sue characters spurred my previous thought. They don't have to struggle much at all, and the little stages come across as merely parts of the whole goal. This is the direct path from A to Z approach, hah. There's actually a technical term for writing only scenes, conversations, whatever that focus only on the main plot (as if characters have only the one thought in mind) but I can't remember it.




C. A. Stanley said:


> Fair point. And I totally agree with you. But if your goal is to save the world, do not all other things pale in comparison?
> 
> I'm just playing devil's advocate here


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## Annoyingkid (May 26, 2017)

I'd burst out laughing if characters stopped to talk about their feelings for each other while the fate of a nation or the world was at stake or while the villains have their finger on the button.


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## FifthView (May 26, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> I'd burst out laughing if characters stopped to talk about their feelings for each other while the fate of a nation or the world was at stake or while the villains have their finger on the button.



One season of _24_, Jack Bauer's daughter worked in the same anti-terrorism unit but she was more concerned about whether her father knew she was dating his partner than about the fact that all hell was going to happen to the world.

Yeah, that always annoys me.


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## Ewolf20 (Dec 18, 2018)

I'm indifferent to the chosen one trope but like any other trope, it can be done in a good or bad way. A really good example of the Chosen one trope was avatar the last airbender which made it a plot point that's vital to Aang's development as a character. That's the exception. I'm more inclined towards stories where the person does something to prove that they're the hero rather than the forces that be tell them they are. It's a matter of show and don't tell. Show me they're the hero. Don't just say they are and write about them bumbling around doing nothing. Hence, I find save the world plots sucky as the main characters don't seem to care about the stakes at hand.

It's a matter of whether or not you're willing to make it good that matters.


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## Annoyingkid (Jan 30, 2019)

The "chosen one" is disrespectful to the chosen one's allies when victory was clearly a team effort.


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## pmmg (Jan 31, 2019)

Annoyingkid said:


> The Chosen One is an arrogant premise. The implication that it all comes down to one person in the end and that person takes the credit as "chosen" to save the day. What about the hard work of everybody else? Allies who fought and worked to put the chosen one in a position to bring it home? Unless the Chosen one is doing it all solo, I think there could be _some_ humility for what is usually a team effort.



Sounds like that is a different type of story.


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## Annoyingkid (Jan 31, 2019)

pmmg said:


> Sounds like that is a different type of story.



I don't believe so. Unless the chosen one is doing 100% of the work required for victory.
Which he or she never does.

There's alot of underlying work and logistics that gets put in place that doesn't attract the attention, but that the "chosen one" would have had no chance of victory without. So it is fundamentally arrogant and belittling toward the effort of others to think victory comes down to a chosen ONE. It was never one. A chosen people I can believe.


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## pmmg (Jan 31, 2019)

Ah, I see I replied to this one some time ago, and reading back over it, I think I would make the same comments.

And AK I do appreciate that you bring the perspectives you do.

You are right, most stories have a lot of underlying characters that all contribute. I am not sure I would go as far as to say they are disrespected (seems an odd word for fictional characters anyway). But that is not the story many are reaching for. And chosen one's usually spend a good portion of the story as the chosen one, and that is understood by others. I don't think they all feel disrespected just because.

If it was my focus to make sure everyone got credit (and I am not sure even with a chosen one story that other character are necessarily denied credit), I would be writing a different type of story. But you know, you gotta write the story about someone, and whoever that is, I would hope would be the one that was most interesting the to story and events. Given their special status of being 'the one I am writing about', they all kind of fall into chosen one territory.

Easy enough to avoid chosen ones though, just don't use them.


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## Annoyingkid (Jan 31, 2019)

You don't have to feel disrespected to be disrespected. Often what annoys readers most are what characters don't feel, and characters under reacting.

The problem is chosen one prophecies are vague in order not to spoil future events, and so in being vague, goes far beyond the so called chosen one's actual role and foreseeably implicates more characters For example:

"Bring balance to the force" - Luke did at least as much as Vader. It's arbitrary that Vader's the chosen one.



pmmg said:


> If it was my focus to make sure everyone got credit (and I am not sure even with a chosen one story that other character are necessarily denied credit



No one's forcing you to give characters the credit they deserve. It's the implicit denial (of other character's) deserved credit, inherent to the term chosen one that makes the chosen one a douchebag for accepting it.

I'd hate that character. Because it's forseeable that you alone ain't bringing balance to nothin. You alone ain't ending a war, or saving the world, or whatever other vague prophecy.

The character has to know that. Anybody with fundamental reason has to know that. Throwing the title of Chosen One around sounds to me like someone is trying to love bomb the character. The only reason anyone would ever accept it is because they want it to be true and are in love with the idea of an individual, idealized saviour.


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## pmmg (Jan 31, 2019)

I think this is lacking in a little imagination.

It could be just as you say, and the one accepting the role of "Chosen One' (Does one really accept such a role if they are?) is really being a prick and discounting everyone else. But it could also be something else. Can you not imagine that?

Was young Aang a jerk for being the avatar? I thought he was kind of a jerk for not taking it seriously. Was Sokka disrespected? In fact I thought he was, often as the brunt of the jokes, but I thought he was the best warrior in the series. I did not discount him.

So, what am I supposed to do, say you are wrong? If its not your thing, than it not. But this, like so many other aspects of the craft, is just something that sometimes has a role and sometimes does not.

I find an interesting perspective that you would consider it disrespectful, and to me that even sounds like an idea to use in a story itself, but I don't think I will go with you and say it is defacto that. I think there is room for it to be many things.

Star Wars, Meh... So maybe he did not reach his pinnacle. It is just one of many stories. Its problems are its own.


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## Annoyingkid (Jan 31, 2019)

Afaik, Aang wasn't the chosen one, he was simply the avatar because he uniquely had control of all the elements. 



pmmg said:


> Can you not imagine that?



I can't. 

The chosen one trope is saying I'm more important than you, or being called more important without having earned it. And while being assisted in some way. It's I'm more important because somebody somewhere said so at some point in time. It means nothing in practical terms. 

It's actually worse than that, it's actually saying no one else matters an iota. Because if a prophecy is believed true, and the actions that lead to the foretold event are unknown,than the chosen one will fulfill it regardless. If you truly believe it, as an ally to the chosen one, then just quit and let the chosen one do everything. It is foretold m i rite? Prophecy said it, you believe it, that settles it.

Or you don't believe it, and so you'd agree with me that it's just self aggrandizement. And so you'd actually bother to wake up in the morning and join the fight or quest or whatever.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Jan 31, 2019)

^Have you ever played Tales of Symphonia or Tales of the Abyss? Both games deconstruct everything about Chosen Ones.


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## pmmg (Jan 31, 2019)

Well, It does seem you have a strong conviction about chosen ones. I do not think I agree, but I don't know that its all that important that I do. I would point all this back to my original post on the chosen one. They are all chosen ones. If you really feel strongly about it, sounds like a good place to put a story.

Anyway...I will suggest a number of things.

1) I think there can be times when someone is more important than another in terms of events. And I think it might matter depending on how it came about or who said it.
2) I am not sure that prophecy and chosen one have to be paired, a prophecy could be wrong or non-existent, and someone could still fulfill the role of a chosen one. Isn't it usually the case that a prophecy is believed one way and is twisted at the end to something unexpected, yet still fulfilled?
3) I am not sure it is exactly hubris to be the chosen one, to know it, and then to say it. (In fact, I think chosen one stories often have characters reluctant to admit it, or accept the role).

I think only in a certain pool of contexts does it does it amount to what you are saying, they are undeserved and discounting of others around them.

I could see a character doing just as you say, if this is all preordained, than what does my role matter? Sounds like its all about to unfold just as things have been written. but then, I can see people reacting a lot of different ways. One can find themselves with the chosen one, and still find their role essential.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Jan 31, 2019)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> Annoyingkid: Have you ever played Tales of Symphonia or Tales of the Abyss? Both games deconstruct everything about Chosen Ones.



Now that I think about it, the Tales Of games deconstruct a lot of things.


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## Annoyingkid (Jan 31, 2019)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> ^Have you ever played Tales of Symphonia or Tales of the Abyss? Both games deconstruct everything about Chosen Ones.



I don't get time to play games now that I'm writing. But do they get into the deterministic nature of the Chosen one?

It's an argument that a future event is determined, and that any actions you take feed into that determination.

If that's the case then the chosen one lying back and doing nothing is equally valid a choice as trying to win. So if someone genuinely believes they're a chosen one, why try? Why not take the path of least resistance and let destiny take care of the rest?



pmmg said:


> One can find themselves with the chosen one, and still find their role essential.



Doing so is cognitive dissonance. A chosen one is a foretelling. Without deterministic prophecy, the chosen one is just a mundane title no different to any other.

Wouldn't you be insulted if you were told your actions only feed into the chosen one's destiny, regardless of what they are?


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Jan 31, 2019)

In Tales of Symphonia, the Chosen One Colette has massive self esteem issues from having the weight of the world on her shoulders, and constantly cares about everyone else at the expense of her own needs. It also isn't a given that the heroes will win; in fact, the main villain actually succeeds in his plan and comes a hairsbreadth away from destroying two worlds in a 'I don't care about anything anymore' move, and if the heroes hadn't challenged him, and instead done nothing, the villain would have won.


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## pmmg (Jan 31, 2019)

Well.... For example...

Suppose the prophecy was only that the chosen one and the evil god would fight it out. But the outcome is in doubt... Young chosen could choose to sit on his arse and play video games and eat cheetos, and big baddie will still show up and have it out with him, but that would not really prepare him for the contest (less, maybe it was a video game contest). He needs the trials of doing to be capable of winning.  The path of least resistance is not axiomatically the wisest course.

Suppose young chosen is destined to go to bad guys land, and fight him there...but bad guy is about destroying everything he loves. Maybe he might be motivated to make that happen sooner rather than later...and he wants to win, cause of that killing all he loves thing, so....he better get training.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Jan 31, 2019)

In Tales of the Abyss, the main theme of the game is fate vs free will, and takes place in a world that's utterly directed by prophecies [called the Score], so much so that people revolve their entire lives around it, going so far as to not do laundry if the Score says it will rain. It also examines clones, and how being a clone and having a clone would realistically effect both you and the people around you.

The main villain wants to destroy the prophecies, although the full details of his plan are hazy on my part because I still haven't played through the whole game, though I do know all the spoilers [thanks for that, internet].


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## pmmg (Jan 31, 2019)

Um...I am not sure that it must be deterministic.

A deity appears before a shepherd and commands him to travel to a far land and deliver his message. Has not the shepherd been 'chosen'? Is he not unique amongst humanity at that point? Nothing is determined, he has just been selected and no outcome is known. Adventure ensues.

I think you are trying to define this term into a very narrow form. Narrowing things down is important, it helps put our thoughts into a row, but we can expand from there.


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## Annoyingkid (Jan 31, 2019)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> In Tales of Symphonia, the Chosen One Colette has massive self esteem issues from having the weight of the world on her shoulders, and constantly cares about everyone else at the expense of her own needs. It also isn't a given that the heroes will win; in fact, the main villain actually succeeds in his plan and comes a hairsbreadth away from destroying two worlds in a 'I don't care about anything anymore' move, and if the heroes hadn't challenged him, and instead done nothing, the villain would have won.



But the chosen one still came through, right? If Colette chose to do nothing at all, would she no longer be the Chosen One, or would fate align itself to still ensure she is the chosen one? It must be one or the other. If the former, then the title is meaningless, and it's her actions that make her fate just like anybody else. If it's the latter, then the characters lose their agency. Either way, the Chosen One would be a problematic, and I argue disrespectful claim. 



pmmg said:


> Suppose the prophecy was only that the chosen one and the evil god would fight it out



If the chosen one refused to fight at all, then they can't die if the prophecy is true, because they are prophecised to fight the evil god at some point.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Jan 31, 2019)

I'm sorry, then, for entering the discussion, and bringing the games up, My apologies.


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## Annoyingkid (Jan 31, 2019)

pmmg said:


> A deity appears before a shepherd and commands him to travel to a far land and deliver his message. Has not the shepherd been 'chosen'? Is he not unique amongst humanity at that point? Nothing is determined, he has just been selected and no outcome is known. Adventure ensues.



He's been chosen, but the chosen "one" can't be something anybody can do, right? If that's the case then everyone's a chosen one, right? Everyone's been chosen to do something at some point.


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## Annoyingkid (Jan 31, 2019)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> I'm sorry, then, for entering the discussion, and bringing the games up, My apologies.



Disrespectful to the other characters, not to me.


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## pmmg (Jan 31, 2019)

Suppose shepherd goes to his friend and say, hey, I was just chosen to go to a far land and say things that will get me killed. His friend might say, well then I better go with you cause its dangerous. That does not feel disrespectful to me.

Think I am going to give it up from here. I have a class to do, and home work does not do itself (and I am behind :~()) You have good points AnnoyingKid, but I think you are defining to narrowly. 

For the question above, I would point you back to where I said I don't think Prophecies and Chosen ones must necessarily be paired. And even if they must be, the young chosen cannot take as a given that the prophecy is true or will unfold the way he thinks. Anyway... Why discuss with me...put in a story. That's the goal anyway.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Jan 31, 2019)

As it turns out, TV Tropes has a slightly better description of Tales of the Abyss' prophecy thing:

<_Tales of the Abyss_ has the existence of the Score, a telling of fate lasting thousands of years, and whether or not the heroes decide to fight it or go along with it. It deconstructs the trope because it shows what the world would be like if everyone had a constant and regular link to "Destiny". They consult it for everything, from who they marry to what they eat for dinner. This leads to it becoming a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy because the people blindly act according to what the Score has told them to do. A single organization has a monopoly on reading the Score and as a result it is the most powerful organization in the world. (whether it is corrupt or saintly depends on which authority figure you're talking to).>


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Jan 31, 2019)

and here's the description for Colette being the Chosen One.

<Colette Brunel from _Tales of Symphonia_ is the chosen one, although she's not the main character and has been fully aware of her status as the chosen one her whole life, it being due to her genetics. This is also a deconstruction. It is revealed that there are entire families containing the chosen bloodline spread across the world, any member of whom can be proclaimed the chosen one by the Powers That Be whenever required. And then of course it turns out what the Chosen is chosen _for_ — to be the vessel for the resurrection of the "goddess" Martel — and by "goddess" we mean "Big Bad's dead sister".>

Maybe I'll actually complete both Tales of Symphonia and Tales of the Abyss one day. They are awesome games through and through.

Sorry that I wasn't too good at explaining it all. In my defense, it has been a long time since I played either game.


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## Gray-Hand (Feb 1, 2019)

It’s not hard to write a prophecy for a Chosen One that still leaves the outcome uncertain:

_‘The Chosen One will kill the Dark Lord in battle and rule the kingdom with justice and wisdom’_  tells the reader how the story will end.

On the other hand: _‘The Chosen One will confront the Dark Lord and the New Age will begin’_  could mean a lot of things. 

The Chosen One could kill the Dark Lord and become a great king and everyone lives happily ever after.  The Chosen One could die and the Dark Lord conquers the whole world.  The Chosen One and the Dark Lord could both die, but things get better for everyone else. The Chosen One could join forces with the Dark Lord.  The Chosen One could make the Dark Lord see the error of his ways and convince him to alter his conduct. Lots of things.

Another option is to have other prophecies in the story turn out to be false, or accurate, but in a different way to what was expected, in order to create doubt in the mind of the character and the reader.


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