# Mediveal and 19th Century fashion



## Aravelle (May 3, 2012)

It's something I've looked into so much it hurts. I know my stockings from my hosen, my tunic from my toga, and my fishtail from my bustle skirt. I know I'm new on here, but if anyone is struggling with cultural fashion or clothing vernacular, I'm here! 

P.S. I know a thing or two about fashion in the centuries between, too.


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## Jess A (May 4, 2012)

I shall watch this thread as well. Especially if the fashion is medieval or early modern European.

Care to share your clothing descriptions? Basic clothing for male noblemen, richer merchants, noblewomen etc. Pictures along with descriptions are also very welcome. I am fairly alright where it comes to commoners, but even that would be welcomed.

I would also like to know about armour and clothing worn underneath it, as well as travelling clothes or appropriate things to wear on a journey/on horseback etc.


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## studentofrhythm (May 4, 2012)

Ok, I'd like to know more about corsets.  Specifically, their absence.  To wit:

When did corsets become mandatory for middle-class women, and where: did the practice start in Britain?  Did it spread as far as places like Italy?

Where should I look for pictures or descriptions of common women's dress in the early 19th century that did not use corsets?


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## Aravelle (May 9, 2012)

Little Storm Cloud said:


> I shall watch this thread as well. Especially if the fashion is medieval or early modern European.
> 
> Care to share your clothing descriptions? Basic clothing for male noblemen, richer merchants, noblewomen etc. Pictures along with descriptions are also very welcome. I am fairly alright where it comes to commoners, but even that would be welcomed.
> 
> I would also like to know about armour and clothing worn underneath it, as well as travelling clothes or appropriate things to wear on a journey/on horseback etc.



Alrighty! I'm very sorry I didn't see this sooner- I hadn't checked the thread, or gotten an email saying that someone had responded.

Well, in Mediveal and Elizabethan England, there were sumptuary laws [laws that prohibited people from dressing outside of their class], so it was actually illegal for peasants and merchants to wear certain materials and materials dyed certain colours. The penalties could be as severe as the loss of property, or death. Materials that would be illegal for peasants would be velvet, silk, taffeta, damask, cotton, linen. Cotton wasn't a commonly used material for the lower classes until the invention of the cotton gin in America. So, peasants wore wool, leather, animal skin for the most part [although hemp was used in peasant clothes]. Despite this, fur was a luxury used exclusively by the wealthy. This does not mean that they did not have coloured clothing-  however, the brighter the clothing, the more dye was used. The peasantry had access to quite a few different colours, using the herb and berries and minerals from the land around them. Colours like red and purple were relatively exclusive to the upper class, due to the price of indigo and carmine [red]. This is why in most "royal" costumes, the king and queen wore red and purple.

First and foremost, every nobleman wore hosen. One could never have too many pairs of hose. It was their equivalent of blue jeans. In the 15th century it was fashionable for each of the legs to be a different colour -not unlike the classic image of the jester. 
A nobleman also wore a robe/cloak and a tunic/surcoat belted either with a girdle or belt [no duh]. It depends on specifically when in the Mediveal era- in the Pre-elizabethan years a nobleman would have wore a surcoat and robe. Cloaks were used in the 9th and 10th centuries. Both cloaks and robes were preferably be fur lined. Shoes and boots were closed and pointed toe. The shoes were most likely lace or button up, although I'm not 100% sure. I just don't think a nobleman would use a slip on. xD

Although it wasn't introduced until the later years, some nobleman did indeed wear codpieces. It was much easier than taking their hose off totally, not to mention it _thoroughly_  displayed the size of one's manhood. 

If you'd like, I can be more descriptive of ornamentation and accessories like caps.


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## Aravelle (May 9, 2012)

studentofrhythm said:


> Ok, I'd like to know more about corsets.  Specifically, their absence.  To wit:
> 
> When did corsets become mandatory for middle-class women, and where: did the practice start in Britain?  Did it spread as far as places like Italy?
> 
> Where should I look for pictures or descriptions of common women's dress in the early 19th century that did not use corsets?



Oooh I love corset questions, being a corset enthusiast myself... The corset's origins are a bit murky- they were used as early as the 1300s, but its development into as we know it began in the 1500s. They became mandatory because they kept the posture straight and supported a woman's breasts. It was their version of a bra, basically, but a hell of a lot sexier [in my humble opinion ;D]. I can't say as to where it originally started, but I'll assume France or Britain. I would think Italians would have worn them, but it would have taken a while for them to catch on simply because the government changed- city states rised and fell, germanic conquerors ruled and conquered again. It was chaotic over there. So, if they did wear the corset -which I would assume so at least in Elizabethan times- it would be because of the influence of people they traded with, out of a foreign trend. 

I presume you mean somewhere in Europe... hm, maybe try germanic or slavic dress? :/


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## Aravelle (May 9, 2012)

I'll post pictures later, as well as answer your question about travelling and knight's clothing.


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## Caged Maiden (May 9, 2012)

Aravelle said:


> Oooh I love corset questions, being a corset enthusiast myself... The corset's origins are a bit murky- they were used as early as the 1300s, but its development into as we know it began in the 1500s. They became mandatory because they kept the posture straight and supported a woman's breasts. It was their version of a bra, basically, but a hell of a lot sexier [in my humble opinion ;D]. I can't say as to where it originally started, but I'll assume France or Britain. I would think Italians would have worn them, but it would have taken a while for them to catch on simply because the government changed- city states rised and fell, germanic conquerors ruled and conquered again. It was chaotic over there. So, if they did wear the corset -which I would assume so at least in Elizabethan times- it would be because of the influence of people they traded with, out of a foreign trend.
> 
> I presume you mean somewhere in Europe... hm, maybe try germanic or slavic dress? :/



Corsets as we know them are a Spanish invention from not before the 1530's.  Before that, bodices were stiffened with buckram to achieve a cylindrical flattened torso, but not made totally rigid.  Early corsets utilized bents (like reeds) bunched together and sewn into channels, and a flat piece of wood down the front called a busk.  Later in the 16th century, whale baleen was used to stiffen corsets, which were not used for tight-lacing until later in the next century, and not at all common practice early on.  England embraced the corset, wanting to look more like their queen.  Italian women did not wear corsets normally.  Some speculation surrounds how they achieved a flat bodice without a corset, but when sailcloth is found in a tailors shop I think it's quite clear that clothing was lined with stiff canvas.

I wear 16th century corsets with my dresses because they give the correct silhouette.  I'm 125 lbs. so not heavy by any stretch, but the corset flattens the breasts and keeps the back straight, taking in the waist a few inches naturally.  The silhouette is as important as the dress you're wearing.  A sloppy figure is as inappropriate as sewing  gown from something crazy like sequins and stretch velvet.  What most people don't consider is that the same effect can be accomplished in part with sturdy middle layers in the bodice, like the canvas example above.  

Many times, the "corset" was in fact exposed in the 16th century, showing off a rich garment of fine silk.  It was not strictly underwear as in later years, but might look very similar to a bodice, closing in the front with hooks and eyes and being pinked, slashed and embroidered.

Actually, the Italians and French led fashion.  Queen Elizabeth tried to steal tailors from Italy because she loved the style so much.  Several of her portraits exemplify her desire to look like the fashionable mainland women.

Not trying to be contrary, most of your previous post struck me as pretty accurate, but some of this one is pretty inaccurate and misleading.  

I have several examples of Italian and English gowns in my Album here in my portfolio.  If I can answer any questions, I frequently do research and specialize on the 1570's.  anihow's Album: Costumes


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## Caged Maiden (May 9, 2012)

Little Storm Cloud said:


> I shall watch this thread as well. Especially if the fashion is medieval or early modern European.
> 
> Care to share your clothing descriptions? Basic clothing for male noblemen, richer merchants, noblewomen etc. Pictures along with descriptions are also very welcome. I am fairly alright where it comes to commoners, but even that would be welcomed.
> 
> I would also like to know about armour and clothing worn underneath it, as well as travelling clothes or appropriate things to wear on a journey/on horseback etc.



If you narrow down a time frame, I'm happy to even send you costume plates.  I have tons of material, but fashion changed very quickly during the renaissance (less quickly in the middle ages), so if you give me a year, I'll happily describe anything you want.  Also, this thread is pretty good.  We've been talking about this already.  http://mythicscribes.com/forums/research/3352-need-help-fabric-fashion.html


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## Aravelle (May 9, 2012)

Guilty as charged. I admit I haven't looked that much into what Elizabeth actually wore, or the italian fashions.

I hadn't heard that the silhouette was so important, although I didn't think it unnecessarily unimportant, if that makes any sense.

When I mentioned the origin of the corset, I was thinking of an article I had read that said that a corset like piece of clothing was discovered in Crete and dated around the 1300s. I had also heard Henry II's wife Catherine de' Medici had put a ban on thick wasted women, but I also heard that was untrue. So I stuck with it being older than the 16th century.


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## Caged Maiden (May 9, 2012)

medieval women wore a black band to accentuate the waist, that is 1400's, but the corset is not seen before 1530.  The thing in Crete with the snake goddess is actually 1600 BC.  

So if you love corsetry, this book is really good: The Corset - Steele, Valerie - Yale University Press

So a little more about corsets. The measurements of actual surviving corsets tell us that there were plenty made with 30" waists, and when you consider EVERY corset was made to remain open 2"-4" in the back, you're not talking about teeny tiny women.  (this is bout 19th century, btw.)  So young women wore corsets of 18", sure, but then think about how big a 14 year-old's waist actually is.  And that corset might have actually measured 22".

Until the 17th century, corsets were not meant to slim the waist really, but to create a stiffened silhouette emphasizinf a narrow waist and bigger hips.  The trick employed by noblewomen included rolls tied around the waist (French Farthingales or Bum rowles in England) and Hoopskirts (Spanish Fatthingales), and also big puffy sleeves, all of which made the waist look smaller though it was normal size.  People tended to be smaller hundreds of years ago anyways.  HA! I'd have been a buxom lass in England weighing in at almost 130 lbs.  However, Italian men would probably not have found me to their liking, preferring thicker, round women.  Just look at the portraits, they reveal a ton about what people found attractive.


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## Caged Maiden (May 9, 2012)

Aravelle said:


> I hadn't heard that the silhouette was so important, although I didn't think it unnecessarily unimportant, if that makes any sense.



In my album, I have a black and white photo of my Venetian Courtesan dress.  That picture is one of my favorites because it perfectly details the Venetian silhouette  Picture 17 of 18 from Costumes  .  The blue and black dress however, is much more English (though I'm cheating and not wearing a corset in it for the photo)  Picture 10 of 18 from Costumes  .


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## Jess A (May 11, 2012)

Aravelle said:


> Alrighty! I'm very sorry I didn't see this sooner- I hadn't checked the thread, or gotten an email saying that someone had responded.
> 
> Well, in Mediveal and Elizabethan England, there were sumptuary laws [laws that prohibited people from dressing outside of their class], so it was actually illegal for peasants and merchants to wear certain materials and materials dyed certain colours. The penalties could be as severe as the loss of property, or death. Materials that would be illegal for peasants would be velvet, silk, taffeta, damask, cotton, linen. Cotton wasn't a commonly used material for the lower classes until the invention of the cotton gin in America. So, peasants wore wool, leather, animal skin for the most part [although hemp was used in peasant clothes]. Despite this, fur was a luxury used exclusively by the wealthy. This does not mean that they did not have coloured clothing-  however, the brighter the clothing, the more dye was used. The peasantry had access to quite a few different colours, using the herb and berries and minerals from the land around them. Colours like red and purple were relatively exclusive to the upper class, due to the price of indigo and carmine [red]. This is why in most "royal" costumes, the king and queen wore red and purple.
> 
> ...



Good grief, illegal? That could be an interesting little piece to slip into my story somewhere. Every good fantasy needs people in disguise. 

Thank you for your descriptions - much appreciated. I would indeed love a description of the accessories (hats included). Every little bit helps with my understanding, even if I don't have to describe every detail of everything in the actual story.


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## Jess A (May 11, 2012)

anihow said:


> If you narrow down a time frame, I'm happy to even send you costume plates.  I have tons of material, but fashion changed very quickly during the renaissance (less quickly in the middle ages), so if you give me a year, I'll happily describe anything you want.  Also, this thread is pretty good.  We've been talking about this already.  http://mythicscribes.com/forums/research/3352-need-help-fabric-fashion.html



I can imagine fashion in the Renaissance never staying the same for long.

I don't really have a specific year. But let's throw out a random one to see what you've got. 1599? Give or take a few years...


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## SeverinR (May 11, 2012)

Period Fashion is a tough and wide ranging education. It would be tough to master all of Europe's fashion for all the periods.

I bet "Ye ole Guchi" was but a simple tailor back then.

The men wore "hosen", that is why I chose a period prior to hose being common for my persona. Men in tights I am not.
Everybody: "We're men, Manly men, we're men in tights. Roaming around the forest looking for fights..."

I also went with the simple head dress, yes. Severin Rheiner is a "hood."
-----
Corset question, Were corsets always tied so tight, like shown in Pirates of the Caribbean? 
During that period and during the life of the corset?


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## Caged Maiden (May 11, 2012)

SeverinR said:


> Corset question, Were corsets always tied so tight, like shown in Pirates of the Caribbean?
> During that period and during the life of the corset?



I already talked about tight-lacing earlier in this thread.  What do you want to know in particular?  Is your question regarding your year of 1599?  The fashion of 1599 would have employed a corset to create a stiff shape, the breasts being pushed up into the opened front of a partlet of when  partlet was not worn, the low neck of a gown's bodice.  Some time around then, bared breasts were actually fashionable for noble women.  Their bodices were cut really low and the breasts simply covered with sheer linen.  Also, as I mentioned before, while England and Spain delighted in the corset, Italian women were not quick to embrace it and simply stiffened their bodices with buckram or canvas to hide unsightly bulges without concern for a trim shape.  German and Italian women used their sleeves to accentuate their shape and actually could appear quite obese when they probably weren't.  The clothing of the second half of the 16th century shows women from those areas looking quite curvy, their gowns actually accentuating their natural features, when English ladies tried desperately to look like their queen who was tall and lean and quite flat in the front.

Fashions for the nobility strove to look like royalty, and the upper-middle class tried to look like nobility, and so on down the line.  

In Pirates (1700's) the corsets were laced much tighter, and still flattened the breasts compressed the lower ribs.  Later, in the 1800's, the hips and breasts were merely supported by the corset, but a tiny waist was desired, so the waist was very restricted.  That's why the silhouette of the later 1800's was a big ruffled blouse, often with a collar and big puffy sleeves, and a tiny waist, and a skirt with a bustle, making the butt bigger.  It was all about creating a silhouette.  If you can imagine this, the silhouette was the important bit, not really the measurement.  Many women wore larger corsets, and let's be real, a 30" corset wouldn't even push my ribs at all.  Hell, with my hands alone I can probably get 3-4" of movement, making my "waist measurement" 25".  So I could technically wear a 21" corset.  It's the same illusion as when big game hunters measured dead tigers with an 11" ruler... their 11-foot tiger became a 12-foot trophy.  

When a woman had a 20" waist, what that really means is that she could lace herself down to somewhere between 22" and 24".  Now, most of those were young woman, and they were accustomed to wearing corsets every day.  I can accomplish almost the same feat at 31 years old after having four children the last six years... hardly impressive put that way huh?

One thing about wearing corsets:  I have worn them for years when costumed, and they are not comfortable after several hours, but they're loads MORE comfortable than wearing a 30 pound dress without supportive undergarments.  It gets hard to haul all that fabric and beads around and not look like a wilted lily.

I can keep going if you're all not bored to tears


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## Caged Maiden (May 11, 2012)

Picture 15 of 18 from Costumes
Here's a link to my 1888 dress (when corsets were used to cinch the waist and make it look tiny).  I'm not corseted and weighed about 136 pounds when that was taken.  My natural waist is about 32" and I'm wearing three layers of thin fabric.  Still, just the bustle and cut of the jacket gives the illusion of the correct silhouette, even when my waist is not being restricted.  Not bad huh?


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## Jess A (May 13, 2012)

I did not refer to corsets - SeverinR did. But thank you anyway - I'll have need of the information you put out there in any case. 

I saw your gallery earlier - impressive work.


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## Caged Maiden (May 18, 2012)

Thanks, I am just trying to answer fully and completely, and am happy to answer any clothing questions people have.  It is my obsession and probably one of the few things I'm actually qualified to answer research questions about.  You all can always send me a PM if you need to, or just post on this thread and I'll answer whatever you need.  And if I don't know about it, I probably can point you to  good well-documented resource.  There's a lot of old-wives' tales regarding corsetry in particular, but I can help shed some light on fashion.


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## Jess A (May 19, 2012)

I really must commend this website. I have always found many of its members to represent a wealth of information. 

Can you tell me much about tunics and vests, also tabards and family crests (on clothing) and such? Perhaps a little about those in medieval times, middle ages, and early modern Europe. Some of my characters belong to noble/royal families, and some may be servants for those families. Servants wear the livery of the family, is that correct? And the family would have their family crest as well on their tunics? I'm brain dead from work so forgive the messy question. It seems obvious but I really like to check and double check and triple check.


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## SeverinR (May 25, 2012)

Found this item:
Browsing deviantART


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## Caged Maiden (May 26, 2012)

Okay that's a load of questions Storm, let me try.  So livery is nothing more than clothing supplied to a household.  In fact, when a man dressed his servants in his livery, they were immune to the laws he was immune to (everything EXCEPT breaking the peace, murder, and treason).  SO there was a period when men-at-arms were not allowed to wear livery because it encouraged duelling which was illegal, but unpunishable to those in livery.


In fact, things were not so matchy-matchy as they are now.  Husbands and wives did not color-coordinate their outfits, nor did a nobly necessarily dress his servants similarly.  Livery were garments given, yes, but sometimes it was merely a patch or armband.  Wiki might be better at explaining livery quickly than I am.  

Okay so crests... To my knowledge, the only people who wore their  crests, were knights in tournaments and perhaps soldiers in a sort of  uniform.  It may have been displayed on banners, but I have not seen it,  say, embroidered on a doublet or something.

Now as for the other fashion questions you had, the easiest way for me to sum it up, would be to ask which things you are most interested in.  Here's an overview of late 16th century fashion accessories I have researched.  Also, if you want to see any of my papers, send me an email address in PM.  I'm happy to share my research, but it's hard to fit all the info here on a thread.

SO accessories were huge for men and women.  It was yet another way to display wealth, and the richer you were, the more you wanted it on display.  Men and women wore hats with feathers, carried fans, wore decoration on their shoes, carried daggers and eating utensils, and had a handkerchief.  I can expound on any of that you want.  

Women of middle class carried keys with pride, a basket while at market for her lady, and wore any gift she might have received from her lady (like sleeves of an old hat).  She would have modest jewelry, but might pay the penalty for wearing something above her station if she could afford to do so.  Upper class women would not have a basket, her handmaid would carry her things proudly.  She would have layered clothing, displaying her wealth, and carry a feather fan and maybe a muff (which has an interesting history) or a pelt with a gold bejeweled head http://katerina.purplefiles.net/FlorenceFiles/pics/ACCZEB_martens head fake Walters art museum.jpg  There were loads of accessories that were available, and season would have determined what people would wear.

Men wore coats, capes or a fitted doublet over their indoor clothing, many times draped over a shoulder just to display rich embroidery or semi-precious beads.  Men did wear hose, but not alone.  A gentleman would wear some form of pants over his hosen, and his station determined how voluminous they might have been and how finely they would have been decorated.  

So Storm, if you have any other questions, feel free to post, and if you send me a PM I can make sure I see it.  I'm hppy to continue to assist if for nothing more than peoples' amusement.


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## Dipti13 (Nov 9, 2014)

I really don't think that opting a medieval fashion is tough because we know that it was the most simplest era. I think the problem I am finding is from where to get these clothings because you see so many stores are out their who are promising to give you quality stuff but I am still confused.


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