# Help - trying to avoid seeming racist and cliche simultaneously



## Trick (Mar 15, 2017)

Hi All,

I am not looking to start any kind of debate about representation in fantasy so please let's not go down that road. I'll just say my approach is go with your gut and do your research, so that's what I'm doing. The story I need help with is not about race but it is affected by real world history and race is part of that. 

So, in one of my WIPs I have a main character who is a young black girl named Kia. There are many worlds in the story, all of which are variations on Earth having branched off at different points in history. She is not THE main character but she is vital to the story and I would say too important to call her secondary. I'm just now getting a feel for her personality and I need to come up with a functional flaw for her. 

The issue here is that her world deviated from our real world at the election of Lincoln. In our world he had three opponents who split the vote and he won. In her world, two of those opponents died and the third guy beat Lincoln. He is a real person and he was very pro slavery. As a result, there is still slavery in America - there was still a civil war but it was the North trying to secede and they lost. Technology has been stunted, cultural norms are stunted (to be expected when slavery exists) etc. 

The MMC is a mixed race character, very mixed, named Wender. He comes from a world where all of the population began intermingling in Egyptian times (due to magical travel) and thus has become a place where race doesn't really exist. There are regional variations in appearance but very mild compared to the RW. 

Kia is baffled by Wender's appearance because races can't legally mix where she lives. Anyhow, my first feeling about her was that she would be meek and then grow bold. But, I didn't think of it as caused by her enslavement, just as a part of her personality. However, it may be perceived that way. So, as an exercise, I imagined her as rebellious and spunky and then learning to mature. That felt like a major cliche to me. It didn't suit her as she affects the story and I don't like it. So, somewhere in between will do but now I am having a hard time coming up with a flaw that is genuine and believable without seeming somehow racist or cliched. She must be real to the reader and for most of my characters I like where they end up but she is still a cardboard cutout simply because I can't decide how to flesh her out. 

Please help.


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## skip.knox (Mar 15, 2017)

What does she want?
What does she believe about herself? What does she believe is justice and right order in the world?
What, in her view, opposes that?

I think you need to set her down in the real (fictional) world and walk her around a bit. Get a feel for how she moves, talks, thinks, reacts, in situations that are *not* germane to your story. And maybe a couple that are.


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## oenanthe (Mar 16, 2017)

> Kia is baffled by Wender's appearance because races can't legally mix where she lives.



That never stopped a slavemaster.

I think you need to read more.


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## Trick (Mar 16, 2017)

oenanthe said:


> That never stopped a slavemaster.
> 
> I think you need to read more.



I think you should check what you write before posting, based on its insulting tone. And it might not hurt to improve your reading comprehension with a few exercises.

He's a mix of every race on earth, not just half black/white. While Alternate America, you know - the place I imagined - may still have slavery, it would have several races as residents, but it is illegal for them to intermingle. When an apparently free man walks up to a slave girl and he looks like nothing she's ever seen before, an illegal combination of many races, it's going to raise her eyebrows. Especially since she's a young girl. I could go on...


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## Trick (Mar 16, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> What does she want?
> What does she believe about herself? What does she believe is justice and right order in the world?
> What, in her view, opposes that?
> 
> I think you need to set her down in the real (fictional) world and walk her around a bit. Get a feel for how she moves, talks, thinks, reacts, in situations that are *not* germane to your story. And maybe a couple that are.



Well, she ends up being pretty special, but I don't think she wants that necessarily. I think she craves justice but I can't imagine her going after it without a push from someone else. 

She believes she is in no way less than her "masters" but she also believes in doing her duty, which for her at this point in her life is following her mother's advice most of the time, though she's beginning to doubt its wisdom now. 

Not sure what she believes is justice yet, she's a bit young so I feel like she'd be working that out still. She has certain ideas she's gathered from the adults around her and made her own and others shes' rejected. I guess I can't decide what those are yet.

I know that I want her opposed to her enslavement, but I'm not sure if it is a passionate thing or a passive thing, yet. 

That's not a bad idea... I'll think up some situations that happen before Wender arrives that would be mundane for her and a few that would be fresh for her. Maybe it'll jar something loose.


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## skip.knox (Mar 16, 2017)

It has helped me. By putting a new character into situations outside the story, I can freewrite. I can go to extremes, which helps me get a sense of the boundaries for this character. And I do find I start to hear their voice, what feels fitting.

You don't say how old she is, but in my own perception, kids get a sense of what is "fair" (more usually what's not fair!) at rather a young age.

Oenanthe was more prescriptive than necessary, but the point about slavemasters is nearly historical. I would rephrase it to say the law never stopped a slavemaster who was inclined to take advantage of a slave. It happened a lot and it happened across multiple cultures. More generally, laws never guarantee they won't be broken.

Cultural norms can be pretty strong, though. I don't know how far you want to push this, but if the masters viewed their slaves as repugnant, shameful, hideous, where any kind of mating that was discovered would be socially disastrous, that could set your slave society apart from historical ones. It would still happen, of course, but it would be utterly invisible socially. And would be comparatively rare. Not sure of this even forms a significant part of your story.

Your instincts are right, though. This is tricky ground. Heck, I found it was tricky to have a slave character in my Roman story.


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## oenanthe (Mar 16, 2017)

I don't know if you genuinely don't know this, or if you're avidly trying to deny it, but white slavemasters routinely raped and impregnated their slaves. and if you don't know that, or if you can't face that, then maybe you should re-think your worldbuilding.

Because you will get called on it. You've already been called on it. and your reaction doesn't lead me to believe that you'll handle the inevitable criticism you will receive for this. I have been mild. I didn't pat your bottom and say there, there, it will be all right, because this will not go well for you if you continue with this worldbuilding.

You will be told this again, and next time, it might be incredibly public and embarrassing. so if you don't like it when people say mean things to you?

Heed my advice, offered in anticipation of your future needs. Accept my emotional labor on your behalf.

Stop, and think hard about this. People are not willing to accept the kind of world building you're proposing here. if you got pushback on a tiny internet forum where a handful of people saw your post...can you think ahead, to what will happen on the wider internet?

Dude, I'm trying to help you.


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## FifthView (Mar 16, 2017)

Trick said:


> Anyhow, my first feeling about her was that she would be meek and then grow bold. But, I didn't think of it as caused by her enslavement, just as a part of her personality. However, it may be perceived that way. So, as an exercise, I imagined her as rebellious and spunky and then learning to mature. That felt like a major cliche to me. It didn't suit her as she affects the story and I don't like it. So, somewhere in between will do but now I am having a hard time coming up with a flaw that is genuine and believable without seeming somehow racist or cliched. She must be real to the reader and for most of my characters I like where they end up but she is still a cardboard cutout simply because I can't decide how to flesh her out.



Perhaps a middle ground would be to have her do things secretly. For instance, if she were super curious and often spied on others or explored environments but was also very clever, clever enough to avoid detection. She could be that type of character that is meek socially but, when no one's looking, breaks out of those social constraints to go exploring/spying, whatever, and no one knows this about her.  Maybe her "flaw" (if you want to call it that) is her inability to see, for herself, just how dangerous this trait is, or even that she feels a thrill when she's observing others without their knowing it.  She could have two "faces" in other words, the public face she shows to others and a very private face that no one sees.*

*Edit, just to clarify. I've known people who were simultaneously meek and strong, or whose outward relations with others were easy-going, meek-seeming, but who nonetheless had strong characters.  Plus, people often have this kind of dual public/private personas dynamic, without being "two-faced" in the negative sense.  So I'm just suggesting that maybe the character can be more nuanced than through-and-through meek or through-and-through rebellious.


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## Nimue (Mar 16, 2017)

I agree with Skip's advice: you need to spend time and writing on this character, let her emerge as a human being.  It's a good instinct on your part to avoid the flat "cowed" or "rebellious" characterizations not only because they're cliche but because of how negatively they interact with race and slavery.  There are a great many poisonous stereotypes rooted in cultural justifications for slavery, so it's important for you to remain sensitive to that.  I'm sorry that I can't really point you in a specific direction, but I don't know the character in the way that you do?

A comment that I feel bound to make... With these alternate worlds, it feels like you're setting up the scenario of "and here's the black girl, her background and her entire _universe_ is defined by the perpetuation of slavery!"  That just...does not sit right.  There's a lot of sentiment from black readers and writers on social media that they'd like to see stories about black characters that aren't also about slavery, and this is kind of the opposite extreme.  Can I recommend including another black character whose world and experiences have nothing to do with slavery, if you haven't already?

I'm not saying that it'd be offensive to write this story, but rather that you're setting yourself up for a lot of examination of plot, message, and characterization.  If you're willing to do that labor, it could be great.  If it's a shallow treatment, it could really backfire on you.


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## skip.knox (Mar 16, 2017)

Given how much scrutiny, not to say outright criticism, this sort of story is likely to attract, you might want to ask yourself why you are writing it. Do you want to explore the slave experience? What is it about the alternate fantasy setting that makes you believe there is something special that would not be better handled in an actual historical setting? Was it just a cool idea you had? (nothing wrong with that, but it's important we recognize the sources of our inspiration)

I'm not sure one has to have perfect clarity on this sort of thing at the start, but neither ought these kind of questions be ignored by the author, especially on culturally difficult topics.


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## Devor (Mar 16, 2017)

Nimue said:


> A comment that I feel bound to make... With these alternate worlds, it feels like you're setting up the scenario of "and here's the black girl, her background and her entire _universe_ is defined by the perpetuation of slavery!"



Yeah, I want to echo this sentiment.  You've got a character that almost feels _designed_ as a platform to talk about racial issues and slavery, but it sounds like that's something you stumbled into looking for drama, and that you don't necessarily have anything in particular that you want to say about the subject.  You can still do it, but you've got find some tone and theme or message that you're comfortable with here.  It's not a good subject to stumble through.

If I could suggest something, it would be to rethink her role in her world, and put her with her world's equivalent of the underground railroad. Widen her perspective of how people behave and give her a firmer ground to stand on as a main character.  You might also give her a character arc based on trust, considering how the underground railroad would force her to confront those issues of trust and betrayal quite often.  Just a thought.


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## ascanius (Mar 16, 2017)

I have a few questions.  What is her situation?  Does she live in constant fear of a beating or is life fairly relaxed by a slaves standards.  Is her life defined be fear or something else.  What is her master like, who is her enemy.  Ask what would her perfect day be like.  

I ask because until you know her past and present how can you know her future.


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## Trick (Mar 16, 2017)

oenanthe said:


> I don't know if you genuinely don't know this, or if you're avidly trying to deny it, but white slavemasters routinely raped and impregnated their slaves. and if you don't know that, or if you can't face that, then maybe you should re-think your worldbuilding.



Reading comprehension again... it's important. I know it rather well and never denied it, let alone 'avidly.' I never said anything about it in fact. I said that in the world that I made up from my brain and isn't real race mixing is illegal. I also didn't say that everyone was law-abiding. I didn't make any claim about it either way. If a man owns a slave, he is probably not a great guy so would he rape a slave even if it's illegal... if he wanted to, yes he probably would. Since that has no bearing on this particular situation, I didn't mention it. I also didn't mention various other historical facts tangentially related to this topic but I notice you didn't get rude about those. 



oenanthe said:


> Because you will get called on it. You've already been called on it. and your reaction doesn't lead me to believe that you'll handle the inevitable criticism you will receive for this. I have been mild. I didn't pat your bottom and say there, there, it will be all right, because this will not go well for you if you continue with this worldbuilding.



You really need to watch the level insult you think is appropriate for this forum. You have jumped to conclusions based on a single sentence in my post and you know very near to nothing about me. I'm going to ask now that you rethink this approach. My reaction was to this statement: "I think you need to read more." 

A general insult like that, to a writer, regardless of the actual topic, is pretty rude. You seem to have seized on this idea that I am unfamiliar with history's various terrible facts. Your assumption is incorrect. Now that you know that, you can rest assured that I will broach any aspect of the horrors of slavery that are required by the story, which is the very reason for this post - I had doubts about my approach to a character's personality so I asked for help. If the story included the issue of masters raping their slaves, I would have asked about that.



oenanthe said:


> You will be told this again, and next time, it might be incredibly public and embarrassing. so if you don't like it when people say mean things to you?



What?! People are mean on the internet AND in public?!. I'm shocked...

Quick question, do you "like" it when people are mean to you? Am I supposed to like it or just expect it? Because those are two different things. 

I tend to take issue when people make assumptions about me for which they have no evidence and they let their imagined impression of me based on something that I didn't say balloon into an issue that doesn't exist. That does bother me. If you actually had a basis for this random argument you're making, we'd be having a different discussion. For instance, if you had asked something like, "What about the issues of rape that would lead to mixed race children?" 

I would have answered, "Of course, that would exist but it would be frowned on by the government in the world I have imagined."

And that would have been that. Try the benefit of the doubt next time. It works wonders.


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## staiger95 (Mar 16, 2017)

> my first feeling about her was that she would be meek and then grow bold. But, I didn't think of it as caused by her enslavement, just as a part of her personality. However, it may be perceived that way. So, as an exercise, I imagined her as rebellious and spunky and then learning to mature. That felt like a major cliche to me. It didn't suit her as she affects the story and I don't like it. So, somewhere in between will do but now I am having a hard time coming up with a flaw that is genuine and believable without seeming somehow racist or cliched. She must be real to the reader and for most of my characters I like where they end up but she is still a cardboard cutout simply because I can't decide how to flesh her out.



Since you recognize that you character can go in different directions, I suggesting thinking less about your character in terms of her individual biography and consider what it is that you as the author _need _from the character to advance the story.  What works best?  That is for you to decide.  Stereotypes and cliche's be damned.  Own the character for her _function _in the story.




> As a result, there is still slavery in America - there was still a civil war but it was the North trying to secede and they lost. Technology has been stunted, cultural norms are stunted (to be expected when slavery exists) etc.



As far as this backdrop, I think this leads to a myriad of fascinating possibilities.  The extent to which you examine them depends entirely upon how much interaction your story line requires.  Consider first that the role of the north was not to so much to abolition slavery but to defend the union.  A civil war may have been averted if the south was allowed to secede.  And certainly this brings up the fact that one man did not end slavery.  With Lincoln denied his prominent role in history, what did he do thereafter?  Would anyone have assassinated him?  For what reason?  What shape did the abolitionist movement have taken?  Now consider any technological or social advancements brought about by black figures.  How would this alternate history have shaped them?

As far as racism and stereotypes, I say stick your foot right in and wiggle it around.  Not to perpetuate racist notions, but rather to challenge them.  Consider what stereotypes follow black Americans today and conceptualize how few of them would exist in this alternate reality where slavery was never abolished.  Different stereotypes would emerge, however, so imagine what those would be.  Now if you really want to kick people's preconceived notions in the teeth, how about an America where the slaves are better off in their day-to-day lives simply for being slaves?  You are the writer.  Construct whatever alternate reality you want.  The purpose of speculative fiction is to explore these what-ifs in order to deeper understand the what-is.


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## Trick (Mar 16, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> Given how much scrutiny, not to say outright criticism, this sort of story is likely to attract, you might want to ask yourself why you are writing it. Do you want to explore the slave experience? What is it about the alternate fantasy setting that makes you believe there is something special that would not be better handled in an actual historical setting? Was it just a cool idea you had? (nothing wrong with that, but it's important we recognize the sources of our inspiration)
> 
> I'm not sure one has to have perfect clarity on this sort of thing at the start, but neither ought these kind of questions be ignored by the author, especially on culturally difficult topics.



Well, it's not really 'this sort of story.' Her world and the fact that slavery still exists there is only one of many worlds in the book. Alternate settings are necessary to the plot. It's really a story about people who can travel between many different worlds which are all variations of the real world. Kia is on a world where things didn't go so well in America. It just felt like the right setting for her upbringing. I want it to form the backbone of her beliefs later when she learns that she we will help to overthrow a massive organization that is basically enslaving all worlds without them realizing it. The planet she was born on will be a big part of why she is driven to fight this organization but that will be when she's older. Right now she is 12/13/


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## Trick (Mar 16, 2017)

Devor said:


> Yeah, I want to echo this sentiment.  You've got a character that almost feels _designed_ as a platform to talk about racial issues and slavery, but it sounds like that's something you stumbled into looking for drama, and that you don't necessarily have anything in particular that you want to say about the subject.  You can still do it, but you've got find some tone and theme or message that you're comfortable with here.  It's not a good subject to stumble through.
> 
> If I could suggest something, it would be to rethink her role in her world, and put her with her world's equivalent of the underground railroad. Widen her perspective of how people behave and give her a firmer ground to stand on as a main character.  You might also give her a character arc based on trust, considering how the underground railroad would force her to confront those issues of trust and betrayal quite often.  Just a thought.



That's not necessarily true, though it's a good point. I want her experience of slavery to drive her future actions, e.g., helping to overthrow a cross-world organization that is basically using all the many worlds as its slaves. I would love to add a scene much later when she somehow improves her own world by putting it on the path to freedom for all people but that isn't necessary to the actual story. It could be an epilogue or something.

I like your role change suggestion but the plot does call for her to be rather young. Her age is a big factor in the MC's decision that makes the whole story happen. I'm not sure she would be directly involved. But since I have imagined that she greatly loves and respects her mother, who always tells her to follow the rules, it might be interesting if she learned that her mother was such a woman - helping to smuggle slaves into Canada or something. It would certainly shake up her world and make her think. I like this idea storm. 

Thanks Devor.


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## Trick (Mar 16, 2017)

ascanius said:


> I have a few questions.  What is her situation?  Does she live in constant fear of a beating or is life fairly relaxed by a slaves standards.  Is her life defined be fear or something else.  What is her master like, who is her enemy.  Ask what would her perfect day be like.
> 
> I ask because until you know her past and present how can you know her future.



I wouldn't say she lives in constant fear but she will have experienced it for sure. There are rules the slaves owned by her master must follow and she follows them because that is what her mother says she should do. Now, that may be a front, and she may be very mischievous or downright angry at her situation but I haven't decided yet. I don't imagine her master being the most terrible but he would be given to harsh punishments for rule breakers and Kia would have witnessed that, perhaps even a loved one of hers being beaten or worse. But she might be young enough that what she knows feels like the natural order and she doesn't yet see a way out of it or hasn't tried hard enough yet. Can't decide. This is my conundrum. Is it offensive if she is meek and accepting of what she sees as her lot in life - even if she learns the truth later and grows bold? I just don't know.


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## Trick (Mar 16, 2017)

staiger95 said:


> Since you recognize that you character can go in different directions, I suggesting thinking less about your character in terms of her individual biography and consider what it is that you as the author _need _from the character to advance the story.  What works best?  That is for you to decide.  Stereotypes and cliche's be damned.  Own the character for her _function _in the story.



Well, that's just it, I'm trying to decide on her level of agency. I want it to be just right. She's not the THE main character but she's very important and she does majorly affect the story by her actions so I need to decide how she decides to take those actions. Her function is first to serve as the catalyst for change through no action of her own but then to either grab life by the horns and make her own way, or she could just go along with main character because she's meek. Since the story isn't set in stone, there are promising scenarios in both directions.




staiger95 said:


> As far as this backdrop, I think this leads to a myriad of fascinating possibilities.  The extent to which you examine them depends entirely upon how much interaction your story line requires.  Consider first that the role of the north was not to so much to abolition slavery but to defend the union.  A civil war may have been averted if the south was allowed to secede.  And certainly this brings up the fact that one man did not end slavery.  With Lincoln denied his prominent role in history, what did he do thereafter?  Would anyone have assassinated him?  For what reason?  What shape did the abolitionist movement have taken?  Now consider any technological or social advancements brought about by black figures.  How would this alternate history have shaped them?
> 
> As far as racism and stereotypes, I say stick your foot right in and wiggle it around.  Not to perpetuate racist notions, but rather to challenge them.  Consider what stereotypes follow black Americans today and conceptualize how few of them would exist in this alternate reality where slavery was never abolished.  Different stereotypes would emerge, however, so imagine what those would be.  Now if you really want to kick people's preconceived notions in the teeth, how about an America where the slaves are better off in their day-to-day lives simply for being slaves?  You are the writer.  Construct whatever alternate reality you want.  The purpose of speculative fiction is to explore these what-ifs in order to deeper understand the what-is.



Some of those possibilities are taken into consideration already but they will not be a focus because most of the story does not take place on her world. It's more a matter of how her world has affected her, how it formed her into who she is, that I'm concerned with.


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## Futhark (Mar 17, 2017)

> if you got pushback on a tiny internet forum



I'm sorry I really didn't want to comment.  I've been following this thread and I've read it and re-read it.  Maybe it's me, but I can't find any 'pushback', only constructive feedback from genuine, well-intentioned people.  I think this forum and its members are a credit to the 'wider internet'.

Apologies for the interruption.


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## Deleted member 4265 (Mar 17, 2017)

I wouldn't think of it in terms of her being "rebellious" or "meek" instead I would consider what she will and will not stand for. I think most people are have lines that they just won't cross, its just a matter of figuring out what hers are. Maybe she's hard working and would never do anything against her master but if another slave does something she refuses to snitch no matter what the other slave did or what threats her master uses.


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## Demesnedenoir (Mar 18, 2017)

Realistically, being meek and accepting of a situation is often spot on, but still, someone will be offended. Bigger question, do you give a crap? And for my money, that's the start of a good character arc. I mean, if folks can be offended by the word niggardly... well, the limits are boundless.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 18, 2017)

Who is the target audience for this story? In fiction currently, agents are asking for (actually, BEGGING for) diversity in characters. However, what they're really interested in is portrayals of POC or LGBT characters who run through a story WITHOUT having to send a social message to society.

Personally, I wouldn't be very interested in this concept you're exploring, not because I'm turned off by slavery, etc. but because there's no real way to write the story you're pitching without having some level of investment in the rightness or wrongness of slavery in general, and more importantly, issues surrounding race and what it means to be of a particular race.

Put it this way, if a character of mixed race will cause a stir in this story because of that fact alone...it MUST be addressed somewhere. That's what turns me off. Now you've taken a story about a POC doing something related to a plot, and the focus is pointed toward race as an issue. Which isn't racist, but it will raise questions about what race means, etc. in THIS story. 

I'm writing a world that is all mixed race. There never existed colonialism, slavery, etc. and I'm really excited to write diverse characters in a world devoid of racism or prejudice based on those issues that unfortunately exist in our world. Also, sexuality isn't an issue in my world. People are free to love who they want, and while my MCs are both young and straight (or undecided), their father figure is gay and while it's mentioned, there exists no "issue" over that fact.

So...I think I really understand how you want to write a diverse culture world where inter-racial relationships are the norm for one person and not the norm for the other, but this is a fine line to walk. Again, who is going to pay to read this story? Who is it aimed at? POC who want to see MCs that look like them and don't have to deal with racial prejudices of our own world? White readers who enjoy fantasy worlds based on our real world, but with magic and time/ space travel? This is tricky, for sure. If I were gay, I might tire of reading about gay characters in stories, where they must fight for their right to love a person of their chosen gender.

I simply don't see a way to write this story with the alt-Earth reality of a future that includes slavery and racial oppression without talking about that in the story. It might necessitate devoting a large chunk of the story into exploring racial issues, and for that, I don't think I would be interested in reading it. And I wonder who else would opt out based on similar feelings.

To further expound on the problematic nature of broaching the subject of slavery in modern fiction, I'm reminded of what several agents have said on their blogs and "want lists", which is to say in short, that they aren't looking for books which explore the rightness or wrongness of racial issues (including slavery) or sexuality issues, but that the simply want to see diverse characters treated with respect and featured in a story where they aren't portrayed in situations where race or sexuality issues are one of the main obstacles they must overcome.

Just something to keep in mind as you continue to work on this. Figure out who your target audience is and what they're looking to read.

Bast wishes!


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## A. E. Lowan (Mar 19, 2017)

I very strongly recommend a blog called Writing with Color as a resource, which I have a posted a thread about below.

https://mythicscribes.com/forums/writing-resources/12738-writing-color.html

They are closed to new questions right now, but their archives are a treasure trove of information. I would also strongly recommend finding what's called a "sensitivity reader" to beta read for you, and I would follow their recommendations. A sensitivity reader is someone of the group you're writing about who can offer insights and impressions to help strengthen your work and assist you in avoiding the pitfalls of stereotyping, misrepresenting, and bad tropes.


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## Chessie (Mar 19, 2017)

No--

I'm going to go against the grain here. OP: write the story that's pressing on you, stick true to your artistic vision, and have faith in your work. NO ONE else is going to have faith in your work besides you. Honestly? I wouldn't have asked this question here. I don't believe in sensitivity readers. I don't believe in censorship of ideas or artistic expression. Sure, you don't want to be a total dick either but if you want to tackle social/racial issues in your work that are historically accurate (or at least accurate by definition in your made up world), then why ask the rest of us what we think when we're not in your target audience?

You're writing historical fantasy, which is a nice sub-genre of fantasy that seems to do well. I've read some of these books and they are not shy about tackling social issues. Racism is a touchy subject, but if you're writing in a world where slavery is okay....

Has anyone heard of Kushiel's Dart? Like, come on! Talk about social issues and racism! It's a fantasy classic (OP, check it out if you're interested).

Don't ask us what we think, we're not in your audience. Sorry. But, read other historical fantasy books, engage with that audience via social media, learn what they expect in their books. Your story idea sounds well and you can execute it right if you study the audience you're writing for. Please, ask people who really read in your genre so that you please THEM not US because we're not them!


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## psychotick (Mar 19, 2017)

Hi,

My question is, is Kia a POV character? If she is that gives you a whole range of things to play with as you contrast her thoughts about a particular situation compared with her actions. For example she may be too scared / feel too powerless to protest a certain situation eg the punishing of a fellow slave and so acts meek, but still in her heart knows the wrongness of the act. If she's not POV you have to try and show this sort of thing through dialog / diaries etc, and that to me often feels forced.

Another thing that I think you've not mentioned is what sort of slavery. I mean we're all conditioned to think of slavery as violent repression - and it has been that. But in some societies it was less so. For example ancient Egypt, slavery was an accepted position in society. That doesn't mean it wasn't sometimes violent oppression. Just that the way people viewed it was anything but the way that we as twenty first century liberals would view it.

Extending a little on from that, how does the system work. Can a slave become free? What's the justification for it - because there always is one? Are slaves / dark skinned people considered as less intelligent? Savages? Are they being "raised" to be better "more Christian" souls?

I think if you get into these questions, you can start to dig out some more detail about your MC.

Cheers, Greg.


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## FifthView (Mar 19, 2017)

Caged Maiden said:


> If I were gay, I might tire of reading about gay characters in stories, where they must fight for their right to love a person of their chosen gender.



See, this is an odd thing for me. I've read lots of gay fantasy romance, or simply novels that happen to feature gay characters in fantasy settings that weren't, strictly speaking, romances, and a lot of them include a culture in which being gay is taboo--and if the writing and story are good, this doesn't bother me, as a gay man.

The thing is, it's _recognizable_.  I can certainly sympathize with the characters' situations.

As an author, I've sometimes felt a slight irritation when I stop to consider how easy that is. Instant recognition, plenty of built-in conflict and obstacles...I sometimes wonder if this represents a failure of imagination or an author simply going with an easy substructure. But if the writing and story are good, I enjoy the novel carefree with respect to that issue.

I've also read stories that were set in worlds more like your own, where gay relationships are a non-issue in the world or were even celebrated, and I liked those too. Maybe if only the first type existed and not this type, I'd grow tired of it, but that's not the case.



> I simply don't see a way to write this story with the alt-Earth reality of a future that includes slavery and racial oppression without talking about that in the story. It might necessitate devoting a large chunk of the story into exploring racial issues, and for that, I don't think I would be interested in reading it. And I wonder who else would opt out based on similar feelings.



Our modern culture puts a lot of emphasis on "issues narratives." I.e., living in societies with democratic institutions, free speech and free press, and online outlets for our memes (Twitter, comment sections), we are quite accustomed to thinking about things in terms of issues. When we feel something can be done about a problem, we naturally talk it out (or argue, buy ads, print propaganda, whatever) because we feel we can accomplish something by doing these things (correctly or incorrectly, heh: an open question sometimes.)

A different type of society might promote a different kind of sensibility. I do think that characters living in a homophobic culture or a culture that preserves the institution of slavery will have thoughts about these things, but these thoughts may not be posed in the form of "issues" per se. Even if some character in a novel is more of an intellectual and would-be activist, and might be more prone to think in terms of issues, a great many others may not. Instead, a character might be thinking about how he wants his freedom, wants to find his son or daughter who was bought by a different master, or how he's going to be able to get on in the world loving his same-sex partner.

A modern reader is going to bring a modern sensibility and will probably think in terms of issues--but in most cases, the reader is already going to be aware of the various sides of an issue like homophobia or slavery! In other words, the writer can show various results of homophobia or slavery--the way these shape the world--but without dwelling on it as an "issue" too much or spending large portions of chapters having characters debate the issues.

I don't know precisely what Trick wants to do with this character Kia. From the sounds of it, she's on an arc from being relatively oblivious of "issues" to, later in the book, thinking very much in terms of the issue of slavery. Wender's initial appearance in her life will cause some confusion; but a lot of what takes place early in her arc could be handled without much debate over the issue of slavery. Early on, Trick could show the effects of slavery, have Kia affected by various effects and react to them to give us a foreshadowing, perhaps, of her later "activist" (or merely, active) engagement with the issue, and show us how her alt-Earth works, without directly addressing the issue of slavery _as an issue_. Readers will quickly recognize the issues, already.

There's a great Writing Excuses podcast on using issues in stories. My biggest take-away: "the difference between an issues story and a polemic is that issue stories raise questions and polemics answer them."


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## Trick (Mar 21, 2017)

Caged Maiden said:


> So...I think I really understand how you want to write a diverse culture world where inter-racial relationships are the norm for one person and not the norm for the other, but this is a fine line to walk.



It's funny, but I don't want to write a book about diverse culture and explore the differences between racial equality and slavery as its adverse. Honestly, I want to write a story about characters who magically travel between different alternate earths (and can travel within each planet as well, kind of like jumper) and these characters just birthed themselves. Once I decided that Wender's world broke away in Egyptian times and then had the magical ability to instantly travel anywhere thrown in, it just seemed like a logical recipe for a slow mixture of all races, eliminating the concept of race to a certain point. 

Then Kia just came to me - I knew she would be a young girl at the beginning of outlining but that was it. Once I got to developing her character plot, I pictured her and she was black and living as a slave - that simple. I don't really plan that kind of thing, it just happens. Of course, the dichotomy of worlds occurred to me as something that had to be addressed and that's the reason for the post. I'm really hoping that I'll only need to show her world for what it is, then she escapes it and gets to see how, in other places, all of the things she hates in her world are all but eliminated in some others. She learns a lot. If she goes back to help fix her world's problems later, well... it would have to naturally occur because I'm not aiming for that right now. I just don't want to do injustice to her character or unnecessarily offend people through ignorance. 



Chessie said:


> You're writing historical fantasy, which is a nice sub-genre of fantasy that seems to do well. I've read some of these books and they are not shy about tackling social issues. Racism is a touchy subject, but if you're writing in a world where slavery is okay....
> 
> Has anyone heard of Kushiel's Dart? Like, come on! Talk about social issues and racism! It's a fantasy classic (OP, check it out if you're interested).
> 
> Don't ask us what we think, we're not in your audience. Sorry. But, read other historical fantasy books, engage with that audience via social media, learn what they expect in their books. Your story idea sounds well and you can execute it right if you study the audience you're writing for. Please, ask people who really read in your genre so that you please THEM not US because we're not them!



See, this seems to be a source of a disagreement or confusion, I'm not writing a historical fantasy. I'm writing a science fantasy that has thousands of little alternate history fantasies inside of it - at least, that's how I see it. Wender's world, the most prominently featured in the story, is nothing like the Earth we know. They don't even call it Earth, they call it Centrum. 

And I don't think of this as writing in a world where slavery is okay, I think of it as one world among many where a major injustice has yet to be corrected. It influences one of my main characters' personalities and I want to write that the best that I can.




psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> My question is, is Kia a POV character? If she is that gives you a whole range of things to play with as you contrast her thoughts about a particular situation compared with her actions. For example she may be too scared / feel too powerless to protest a certain situation eg the punishing of a fellow slave and so acts meek, but still in her heart knows the wrongness of the act. If she's not POV you have to try and show this sort of thing through dialog / diaries etc, and that to me often feels forced.
> 
> ...



That's a good question. She wasn't originally going to be a POV character but as the plot sort of bowed down out of her way in my mind, I knew she had to be one. I do plan to use this to show who she is but that's where I'm lost. Is she afraid, in a logical way, of being hurt or of getting others hurt, so she acts meek, but she really is just waiting for an opportunity to strike out without consequences? Maybe. This feels like something a teenager would do: believe a time will come when they can make a difference without consequences. I'm developing off of Devor's suggestion about being meek in public but being a crusader against slavery in secret (only I'm having this be her mother and having her learn of it). I'll see where that path takes me. 

As for the kind of slavery, I see it as the natural progression from the actual slavery in America - because that's what it is chronologically. So, it's still very bad but perhaps more efficient in that it might be governed by more detailed laws concerning the treatment of slaves. But it would not be an accepted class by all, it would be slaves viewed as sub-human by many and the dissenters are in the minority. 



FifthView said:


> I don't know precisely what Trick wants to do with this character Kia. From the sounds of it, she's on an arc from being relatively oblivious of "issues" to, later in the book, thinking very much in terms of the issue of slavery. Wender's initial appearance in her life will cause some confusion; but a lot of what takes place early in her arc could be handled without much debate over the issue of slavery. Early on, Trick could show the effects of slavery, have Kia affected by various effects and react to them to give us a foreshadowing, perhaps, of her later "activist" (or merely, active) engagement with the issue, and show us how her alt-Earth works, without directly addressing the issue of slavery _as an issue_. Readers will quickly recognize the issues, already.
> 
> There's a great Writing Excuses podcast on using issues in stories. My biggest take-away: "the difference between an issues story and a polemic is that issue stories raise questions and polemics answer them."



Thank you for your wonderful post. I think you came at the question more as I intended. The only thing I want the "issue" of slavery to serve as is part of Kia's personality development. If it grows into something more as I write, I'll go with that. But this book isn't about slavery. It's about Wender and Kia and how Wender breaks the rules for her and she becomes a force for good in the universe because of it. Now, if I can do that without putting my foot in my mouth, I'll be happy.


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## Chessie (Mar 21, 2017)

Ok...well it sounded to me like the book was about slavery so I apologize for responding in an unhelpful way. I don't have anything else to add besides good luck!


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## ascanius (Mar 21, 2017)

Ok first  I find the writing with color site little more than a socjus writers dogma, to be consumed and followed with no critical though.  My opinion, others may disagree but that is how I have found it.

Second.  Writing a story that has slavery in it doesn't make you a racist, no matter how you portray it.  Actions are what count not what you say.  The term racist has been thrown around and it's definition reduced to self serving double think that it has little true value as an insult.  Seriously ' a system of oppression', somehow a single person can be and entire system, the socjus def is asinine.  Your not racist if the story has slavery, your not racist if you do a bad job in it's portrayal, nor that of black characters.  At most incompetent, at least simply human who makes mistakes but not racist.

Third have you ever thought that maybe this character has no grand heroic disire to rebel against the oppressors.  Maybe she simply wants her her mother has, a family, simple life, being meek and doing what she can to change things in little ways.  Think of it, she has food, shelter, her family, and relative safety so long as she obeys the rules.  Why risk that all for the unknown, to be hunted, punished, go hungry and live in a constant state of fear.  Many talk, yet when action is needed few rise to the fight and we remember and honor them because they are the exception.  Like Deme said meek is realistic. 

So maybe she has no grand aspirations, maybe she wants the simple things in life, and maybe she is willing to endure hardship to have them.

One of my MCs is similar she has no grand aspirations, she can fight, excel in magic etc.  Yet she is never on the front lines, she isn't party to the intruige, she has no interest in leaving her mark yet she is the stone upon which every other character is built, remove her the story is completely different, the others not so much.  She is meek, , forgettable, suffers more than any other character yet she endures.  Hopefully the reader dismisses her but upon reflection understands, fingers crossed.  She is my favorite character, the only character who cannot die, and the most fun to write.


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## psychotick (Mar 21, 2017)

Hi,

Just to add, it sounds to me that what you're descibing with Kia, is teenage rebellion / growing up. My guess would be that she's meek because her mother has raised her to be meek. So she's been filled with messages like "Don't speak out" "Don't stand up" "You'll just get knocked down". She's probably also seen cases where others have spoken out and been punished. And it has led to a feeling partly of fear, but mostly of powerlessness - her being a girl helps with this narrative. But at the same time this feeling of injustice is growing in her. She wants to do something - but what can she do? She's safe if she keeps her head down and says nothing, but she doesn't accept it as right, while fearing the consequences of her actions to herself and perhaps to her mother - a mother losing her only child.

The question is, what does she do about it? What would you do? Starting / leading an uprising is unlikely. Even if she could do it, the chances of success would be slim - there's a reason why Joan of Arc is so famous - she was one of the few that didn't get instantly killed. So what does her new off world friend offer her? An outside perspective that her world's system is wrong? Maybe, but she already knows this / feels it. Maybe instead he offers her a way out for her and her mother and maybe a few friends? A new homse in another world? Or some tech that can even the playing field?

One other thing, if she does go down the rebel road becoming the bad arse liberator, it won't work out perfectly. In every revolution that has ever happened, those who have been liberated have always struck back in some ways against their former oppressors. It may be reasonably well managed - South Africa - or it may become a complete disaster - Egypt and most of the Arab Spring countries. The problem is that while everyone has sympathy for the oppressed and wants them freed, the fact that they were oppressed does not make them any more saintly than those who oppressed them. People are always people, warts and all, and these people will be angry - as they have a right to be. To add to the woes, when the oppressors feel their grip loosening, they always react one way out of fear - they tighten their grip. What I'm saying is that you aren't going to get a completely happy ending even though it's the right way forward. Maybe that's a life lesson Kia has to learn.

Cheers, Greg.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Trick (Mar 21, 2017)

Chessie said:


> Ok...well it sounded to me like the book was about slavery so I apologize for responding in an unhelpful way. I don't have anything else to add besides good luck!



Oh, your response was helpful, sorry to give the impression otherwise. I very much appreciated the advice to seek out the target audience. My OP was not clear enough and focused so much on the character's experience with slavery that it sort of pinholed the greater plot.


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## Trick (Mar 21, 2017)

ascanius said:


> Third have you ever thought that maybe this character has no grand heroic disire to rebel against the oppressors.  Maybe she simply wants her her mother has, a family, simple life, being meek and doing what she can to change things in little ways.  Think of it, she has food, shelter, her family, and relative safety so long as she obeys the rules.  Why risk that all for the unknown, to be hunted, punished, go hungry and live in a constant state of fear.  Many talk, yet when action is needed few rise to the fight and we remember and honor them because they are the exception.  Like Deme said meek is realistic.



Yes, this was basically my initial concept for her. She is meek because her mother has raised her to be this way as a general rule for safety's sake. Perhaps her inner self is strong and as an adult she would have changed her behavior but this story happens before her adulthood. I want to portray her meekness well though and avoid most (since all is impossible) of the negative reactions her character would get. For some, the knee-jerk reaction is, "Oh, so you think all slaves were meek?" 

And, of course, no. I know for a fact that is not the case but I can't exactly just put a footnote in the book that says, "BTW, I know that not all slaves were meek." This is why I like Devor's suggestion of an outer meek life and a secret brave life - since Kia is so young, her mother can always tell her to be meek and act publicly meek but then Kia can discover that her mother helps get escaped slaves to Canada, which is very brave. This would put Kia in a pre-adulthood spin and re-align her world view in great ways. It should also avoid the impression that I'm a racist, history-ignorant buffoon (fingers crossed).


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## Michael K. Eidson (Mar 22, 2017)

Trick, I think most of your battle is won already because of your sensitivity to the matter. Have faith in yourself. You can do it! 

But listen to your beta readers, as always.


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