# The Value of Fantasy



## Lorna (Sep 2, 2012)

This question has grown out of a combination of Phil's writers / readers post and a vicious circle I have found myself stuck in again. Last year I gave up writing fantasy as I thought it lacked value due it's lack of connection to the real world. And I'm back here again. 

My main criticism of the genre is escapism. 

I noticed amongst the comments on the writers / readers post that many people 'write for themselves.' I can understand this in terms 1) Not pandering to an artificially constructed audience (the mass market) 2) Remaining true to one's own vision / the organic integrity of a story. 

Yet I feel it's our duty as writers to move and inspire our audience and benefit society as a whole.

These are the criteria I'm using to decide whether my fantasy novel has value:

1) Has a root in society (or it's history / literature / myths)
2) Provides a critique of society and suggestion of alternative modes of being.
3) Engages the audience and encourages questioning of the status quo. 
4) Deals with questions of ethics. 
5) Connects to the human heart, makes the reader laugh, cry and see the world around them in a new light. 
6) Inspires a deeper connection with nature, myth and magic in the real world. 

*That's my take on the value of fantasy. What's yours?*


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## CupofJoe (Sep 2, 2012)

Lorna said:


> This question has grown out of a combination of Phil's writers / readers post and a vicious circle I have found myself stuck in again. Last year I gave up writing fantasy as I thought it lacked value due it's lack of connection to the real world. And I'm back here again.
> 
> My main criticism of the genre is escapism.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this, Lorna.
 Fantasy is a wide church so everyone will have different take I am sure.
 But surely a major plank of Fantasy is escapism?
 It might be nice if a reader can find these criteria in a story but I don't see how a story has “value” because it does or lacks it because it doesn't.
 The only duty I see that a writer has is to try to entertain. If you can enlighten and make people think, then great. But sometimes people want just to loose themselves in a different reality for a while.
 Personally the only judge of if your work has value is you. If you feel you need set these six point as criterion, then good luck to you but I don't see them as needed.


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## a dreamy walker (Sep 2, 2012)

I sympathise with you, Lorna. I keep finding myself sinking into a 'vicious circle' of self-doubt and real-world 'connection'.

In terms of stories, the only criteria I have for picking ideas (and turning them into stories) is whether they have a 'real-world connection', whether said idea is positive (in a negative and pessimistic world) and whether said idea allows for sociological reflection/questioning of the status quo.


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## Mizily (Sep 2, 2012)

I fully believe that you can become immersed in another world entirely, while gaining insight to the real world. For me, it's all about the characters. The foreign situations presented in fantasy, and the way they act and react can reveal much about the human nature (even if the characters aren't necessarily human themselves). 

Good characters are realistic- ones we relate to, and can learn from. They are the key to connecting with the reader. I find that in a fantastical setting, they're forced into action, to sink or swim. Fantasy reminds people of the lowest points of life, but also the very highest potential people can live to. It can inspire, I have no doubt about that.

Besides that, fantasy is especially useful in tackling real-world issues with freedom, and in ways other genres could not hope to achieve. Is it addiction or obsession or an insatiable need for power? Or just a magic ring? Ethical and global issues can be addressed, made accessible to people who otherwise might have no interest. 

Historical fiction deals with real facts, following one particular period, place and perspective, romance fiction usually relationships and little else, but fantasy can take on everything. The writer can let their imagination run wild, and really _create_. In my eyes, that's the beauty of fantasy.


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## FireBird (Sep 2, 2012)

I'm not a big fan of pure escapist fantasy. I want the book to make me think about at least one issue when I finish it, whether it be connected to our world or not. When I write fantasy I can't write with a specific theme in mind or an issue to tackle. I write the story that I've outlined and if I have a chance to add in a theme I like or an issue I feel is important I will. I will never try to force it in.

The most alluring aspect of fantasy to me is the world building and I'm sure its the same with many others. In a regular novel if you say New York or Paris a picture immediately pops into my head. If you say Quenath I have no idea what you're talking about. (I'll laugh if thats a real place.) Theres something about building a world from the ground up that is just so damn appealing to me.


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## Kit (Sep 2, 2012)

Pure escapism is not a bad thing. Sometimes we need some. Some people may try to get that with alcohol or drugs or other self-destructive (or destructive to others) behaviors. Reading fantasy fiction is harmless escapism that may leave a person better equipped to go back out and face the harsh world again.

I work in a place where people literally live or die based on how quickly and accurately I can perform a task, and sometimes I can hear them screaming in pain down the hallways. When I get home after 10.5 hours of that, I want to decompress. I sure don't want to feel guilty because I'm not reading something that's supposed to teach me moral lessons. 

Sometimes I even read TABLOIDS.


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## Akahige (Sep 2, 2012)

I tend to agree with Tolkien with regards to escapism:

"Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!"


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## Steerpike (Sep 2, 2012)

Fantasy can  be as escapist, or far from it, as any other genre. There are plenty of times I like a pure escapist book (it might be a fantasy book; it might not). There are plenty of other times I want a deep, thought-provoking story. I think there is room in the genre for both.


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## Feo Takahari (Sep 2, 2012)

For now, I'm trying to create questions with multiple possible answers (e.g. "Having done a terrible thing, the protagonist loses everything. Was this punishment just?") That's not the only value in a story, of course, but it's a value, and I think it's an interesting one to work with.


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## Mindfire (Sep 2, 2012)

Well it all depends on your definition of "value", doesn't it? If I do something and enjoy doing it, then that activity has value. To me, though perhaps not to many other people. But the criteria you are imposing strike me as being very "literary" minded. And there's nothing wrong with that. Except fantasy isn't really a literary genre. And that's okay too. I think when we start assessing the "literary merit" of a work it inevitably leads to intellectual snobbery. So, provided your work is not in some way morally offensive*, who cares what the "value" is? This is why I think getting people to take fantasy "seriously" is something of a lost cause. Because they don't want to take it "seriously". They want to have fun. Too many classics have been ruined, I think, by teachers forcing their students to take them "seriously."


*And even if it is, you still have the right to produce it.


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## Lorna (Sep 2, 2012)

Thank for your replies folks. Some thought provoking thoughts here, particularly on the value of escapism. 

@ Akahige


> Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!"



It takes me back to a quote from my friend William Park in an essay on Japanese horror, which has continued to haunt me: 
'Actual horror lies in the imprisoned pysche.' (It's a great essay, if anyone likes Japanese horror, here's the link JAPANESE HORROR FILMS)

I think part of the reason I write fantasy is to escape the restrictions of society. Hence the guilt trip. 

Is taking people on a journey through a story, providing several hours of topsy turvy adventure with all it's up and downs and scenes and characters that will be remembered for a life time (as I constantly hark back to my favourite books) enough of a reason to write? 

My gripe is a personal one. The more time I spend writing and visiting internet forums the less I go out into the real world and live my dreams. Instead my desire to change an unfair world comes out as my crazy anti-hero destroying the system with his fiery rage. Perhaps it's a good thing some of my secret wishes come out in my fantasy novel rather than going out picking fights with council and torching the local shopping centre... 

Perhaps a balance needs to be struck between the perfect liberty of the imagination and social engagement. 

(I do apologise for my academic approach to fantasy. It even shows in my WIP where the metaphysics has swallowed the story up. Sigh.)


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## CupofJoe (Sep 2, 2012)

Lorna said:


> My gripe is a personal one. The more time I spend writing and visiting internet forums the less I go out into the real world and live my dreams. Instead my desire to change an unfair world comes out as my crazy anti-hero destroying the system with his fiery rage. Perhaps it's a good thing some of my secret wishes come out in my fantasy novel rather than going out picking fights with council and torching the local shopping centre...


This is a problem that many of us share I guess. If you feel the need to do something, then pick something small to work with. Lobbying a council can be great fun as well as effective.
 [I wouldn't try burning places down — people tend to get annoyed...]
[And apologies if I sound preachy but I have my own moments in the dark night...]


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## Butterfly (Sep 2, 2012)

'Tis the eternal hope that one person, no matter how small, can change the course of the future....


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## Penpilot (Sep 2, 2012)

I'm going to echo a few thoughts from above. I do think there's room for escapism and what you're defining as value. If we run a parallel to movies, you can have something like No Country for Old Men and say Star Wars. Obviously one is regarded as more literary, but there's room for both, and both have value by their own standards. Part of it depends on the creator's intent and honesty about it. 

Personally, I like variety. I don't want to watch movies like Star Wars all the time and I don't want to watch movies like No Country all the time. Sometimes it's nice to watch something simple and allow yourself to be swept into an imaginary world. Other times, it's good to have something that makes you think. 

To me, all good stories have one common thing that IMHO must be at the forefront, they have to entertain and tell a compelling story. If they don't do that first and foremost, Star Wars becomes a bunch of random explosions and No Country becomes a 2hr lecture.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Sep 2, 2012)

Interesting topic & I'm going to jump on late.

My goal in writing is purely to entertain. That's all I really care about.

That being said, I feel it's impossible for me to write good characters or a good story without some sort of values creeping in. One of the reason we can come to love a character (or story) lies in their struggles. It's their humanity that pulls us in deep. Simply watching the travails and tribulations of other person teaches us  something at any level.


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## Kim (Sep 2, 2012)

FireBird said:


> The most alluring aspect of fantasy to me is the world building and I'm sure its the same with many others. In a regular novel if you say New York or Paris a picture immediately pops into my head. If you say Quenath I have no idea what you're talking about. (I'll laugh if thats a real place.) Theres something about building a world from the ground up that is just so damn appealing to me.



I feel the seem, but on different aspects. In the second story I've had published (the Lilith-trilogy), religion is very important. If I had written about any excisting religions, people would have an idea about the story before opening the book. By making up my own religion, I can tell whatever I want. So for me, fantasy is the ultimate way to tell about the real world.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Sep 2, 2012)

Kim said:


> I feel the seem, but on different aspects. In the second story I've had published (the Lilith-trilogy), religion is very important. If I had written about any excisting religions, people would have an idea about the story before opening the book. By making up my own religion, I can tell whatever I want. So for me, fantasy is the ultimate way to tell about the real world.



I like your take on this topic.... And I agree even if my goal is to entertain only, fantasy is a superb vehicle for reflecting on reality.


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## Jabrosky (Sep 2, 2012)

Strong moral themes often creep into my stories one way or another, but in general I lean more towards escapism in fiction. If I wanted to remind myself of the real world's problems, I'd read non-fiction or watch documentaries. I question whether non-existent characters and events can accurately portray real-world issues anyway.

That isn't to say I never think about the real world whenever I write. On the contrary, sometimes I write with a desire to educate people about certain subject matter. For instance, I might write historical fiction with a poorly known and under-appreciated setting in order to educate people about that setting.


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## ShortHair (Sep 2, 2012)

Most writers do well in a particular genre or two. Forcing yourself to write something else, when you are compelled to write _something_, gives you an unnecessary handicap. It would be like a country musician trying to write Gregorian chant. Try to imagine the field of modern horror if Stephen King had given up on horror and written only insurance training manuals.

Having said that, I recommend stretching yourself by writing in different genres. For most people it's like learning new languages, each one broadens your mind but results in less fluency.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Sep 2, 2012)

We live in a world were magic is fake, chivarly is dead, true love is rare, beauty is artificial, villains lack class, heroes lack honour, and where problems are almost never solved via swordfights.

_Of course _we need escapism.


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## FatCat (Sep 2, 2012)

Fantasy to me is the ultimate metaphor. You can build an entire world based solely on imagination and that gives an incredibly complex way to mirror the real. Creatures, swords, steampunk; a good story will be able to use these themes to say something about the world we live in today without the need to preach about it. Themes are the undercurrent, swordfights, magicians, and dragons just happen to take the main stage. The sheer power of the imagination can let you get away with so much, it's sad that there are so many fantasy novels these days that are simply photocopies of re-imagined ideas. That's the way I look at it at least....


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## korabas (Sep 3, 2012)

Interesting thread.. of course all of this is subjective. My opinion may differ to yours, but both opinions are equally valid.

We mustn't forget that fiction literature doesn't necessarily have to have a deeper purpose beyond being entertaining – I don't question the value the deeper meaning of summer blockbuster films, I just watch them for fun (yes, in an escapist, vicarious fashion) and as such I don't feel any need to seek those same values in my literature.

However, I feel that fantasy, and all speculative fiction genres, do have a very powerful capacity for deep meaning - value. They can be used as analogy to examine and interpret real-life issues WITHOUT any additional real-life bias. This is perhaps the mark of a great fantasy novel, something that is entertaining but also goes beyond entertainment to allow the reader to explore various issues. It can also be the mark of a BAD fantasy novel – something that uses a fantasy setting to explore a real-life issue without actually being entertaining.


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## Lorna (Sep 3, 2012)

@ Cup of Joe



> This is a problem that many of us share I guess. If you feel the need to do something, then pick something small to work with. Lobbying a council can be great fun as well as effective.



lol I already do. I'm involved with Transitions Towns, blogging, running a Friends group, helping with a community garden. Blog |. Contact with the council is unavoidable, particularly when there are plans for more development on green space and endangered habitats. These are things I've neglected whilst finishing the third draft of my novel. I think it's neccessary to strike a balance between fantasy and reality. Have a ground for fantasy / bring a bit of magic back into everyday life. One shouldn't over-ride over the other.


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## SeverinR (Sep 4, 2012)

Lorna said:


> Yet I feel it's our duty as writers to move and inspire our audience and benefit society as a whole.
> 
> [/B]



My deviantart sig for many years:
Art should inspire, express emotion, show beauty,
and excite those that veiw it.

Imo my Fantasy stories should share the fantasy world of my creation, to inspire imagination, describe the world in all its splendor good and bad.  
To get the reader so mad, they want to throw the book at the wall, but entanlge the reader so much they have to go pick it up again.  Create a world of uncertainty, good doesn't always win, but evil doesn't triumph all the time either.
To create a world so much like ours that they connect to it, but so different that they want to move there.

I think my Bard's job description would fit here too:
The true power of a bard is to draw energy from a crowd, returning it back them in an emotional and meaningful way.


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## Lorna (Sep 4, 2012)

@ Severin


> I think my Bard's job description would fit here too:
> The true power of a bard is to draw energy from a crowd, returning it back them in an emotional and meaningful way.



Becoming a Bard is something to which I also aspire. Here's some of my favourite quotes about Bards and their role in society: 

‘The earliest storytellers were magi, seers, bards, griots, shamans. They were, it would seem, old as time, and as terrifying to gaze upon as the mysteries with which they wrestled. They wrestled with the mysteries and transformed them into myths which coded the world and helped the community to live through more darkness, with eyes wide open, and with hearts set alight.’ - Ben Okri

‘The Bard has dedicated his or her life to the Way of Awen. It is their practice, their profession, their spirituality.’ - Kevan Manwaring

'The Bards offered a source of stability in a world where the immediate future was less certain than it is today. They gave the people their foundation, their roots, and fed those roots with stories of bloody and magical glory, of heroic courage and total devotion, and in doing so they encouraged the people to stretch further towards their potential...
The Bard’s power of language, spoken or sung, was the measure of his talent and he would hone his craft to a point where he was a master of emotion and human desire. He could augment the standing of an individual with eulogies, increasing or assuring a person’s status in society. He could deflate or destroy by satire, causing an individual irreparably to reveal his own weakness. It is said that through satire a Bard could cause a person’s face to break out in blemishes. He could invoke the gods of the land, of love and war...
The modern Bard is no less concerned with the use of language, though this has now broadened to include the language of music, sound, colour and movement. Skills of poetry are still greatly honoured, through understanding that poetry uniquely weaves the left (linear) and right (spatial) sides of the brain. Through his words the Bard shifts the emotions of those gathered to hear, shifts their perception of reality, their concepts of boundaries and potentials. Through his own awen, he uses his craft in order to inspire others.' - Emma Restall Orr


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## cris2507 (Sep 4, 2012)

A very interesting thread.
The opening post by Lorna gave much food for thought but there was one statement with which I must, personally, disagree. This is the following:
"I feel it's our duty as writers to move and inspire our audience and benefit society as a whole."
Whilst I would certainly accept that some writers have benefitted society, I would venture to suggest that this is something that is decided retrospectively, and which is, indeed, decided by society and not by the writer.
I certainly feel no duty incumbent upon me as a writer to benefit society or to teach any kind of societal or moral lesson. If I have a "duty" as a writer it is, in my opinion, purely to entertain, to divert, to gain and hopefully retain an audience's interest.
Fantasy literature does not require a value or purpose beyond that of diversion, any more than any other genre - no one, I would venture to suggest, would seek some higher or didactic purpose for detective fiction or western novels or spy stories. 
As both a reader and a writer of fantasy I look upon its appeal (as opposed to its value) as being in the nature of the thrill of exploration. When I come across a new fantasy story that piques my interest enough to start reading it, I get that same old anticipatory tingle as I cross the border into a new and unfamiliar world. It is that simple thrill of the unknown and the unexplored - that's what grabs me and holds me. That is why I love fantasy.


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## Lorna (Sep 4, 2012)

@ cris2507



> The opening post by Lorna gave much food for thought but there was one statement with which I must, personally, disagree. This is the following:
> "I feel it's our duty as writers to move and inspire our audience and benefit society as a whole."





> As both a reader and a writer of fantasy I look upon its appeal (as opposed to its value) as being in the nature of the thrill of exploration. When I come across a new fantasy story that piques my interest enough to start reading it, I get that same old anticipatory tingle as I cross the border into a new and unfamiliar world. It is that simple thrill of the unknown and the unexplored - that's what grabs me and holds me. That is why I love fantasy.



Isn't providing readers with the thrill of exploration and taking them on a journey into the unknown beneficial to those people and thus to society?


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## cris2507 (Sep 4, 2012)

Well arguably, but I don't see that as the main purpose of fantasy writing. My purpose as a writer is not to benefit or improve people but to entertain them.
I think we may be entering into arcane semantics here centring on the word "benefit" - I took that to mean, in your original post, that you saw writing to have some educative, improving role and it was in that vein that I interpreted the word "benefit." If you mean, in a broader sense, that entertainment can be of benefit, then you will find no argument with that from me 



Lorna said:


> @ cris2507
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Lorna (Sep 4, 2012)

Cris, I loved what you said about fantasy taking people into the unknown / exploring new worlds, to me that's a massively important facet of fantasy. In that sense I'd agree entertainment is beneficial 

I don't think entertainment is beneficial per se. There are many forms of entertainment I know from experience are not beneficial, for myself and people around me, but I think I'll end the conversation there...


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