# Treskri - help needed



## Zireael (Nov 24, 2012)

Treskri is heavily inspired by Greek, Roman and Celtic mythology.
Other inspirations include: Drowtales, Crusader Kings 1 & 2,

***


The world is a vast underground of a planet. There is no known way to reach the surface and the inhabitants aren't aware of the fact that it is underground. Therefore, they measure 'depth' as the distance from the planet's core - that is, the Lower World is the furthest from the core and the coldest, while the Higher World is the closest to the core and the hottest.

I have not yet decided if gravity works towards the core or away from it, though.

Because the planet's core fluctuates and flashes, they can measure time without using magic. Their year has 12 months and every month has 4 weeks 8 days each.

The world itself, beyond the cities inhabited by elves and other races (that is, dwarves and short folk), is very dangerous. Death is very common; however, the deities often grant resurrection or rather, reincarnation.

There are, so far, three known cities in the world.

Magic is pretty rare in the world, with clerical magic present a little more than arcane magic. Arcane magic uses crystals as foci, but both types of magic require that the caster be in the deity's favor.

The deities have much influence over the world - they have their servants and offspring and heroes. There is a creator deity, 8 greater deities - that is why 8 is the holy number - and some lesser deities. Heroes might also eventually become deities.

Most noble houses trace their descent from one of the deities, which is their patron, and they assume the deity's colors as their own. The colors and the coats of arms are some of the most important things in the world.

There are 9 noble houses so far (I have yet detailed only 4). Been thinking of adding a 10th. I need to know what the starting population for each one can be for them to survive. Note that there is no incest taboo in this world. Descent is traced matrilinearly, but aside from that, there is near complete equality between sexes. By tradition, the ruler of a noble house is always a woman and she can keep a harem. All her children are considered legitimate, although the father's position may affect the child's.

The First and the Second Era are purely legendary times; timekeeping starts in the Third Era, approximately 800 years ago.


***

I think this suffices for the most important information. I will, of course, write more here, should someone ask for it. However, I am now focused not only on developing the world (in Polish, since it's my mother tongue), but also on writing a story set in it (also in Polish).

That is why I am not willing to translate everything I have noted down over the course of the last year - the fact that I am starting another year at uni notwithstanding.

OOC: The reason the world is set underground is because I wanted 3-dimensional movement and changing gravity. Some of my friends made me drop the idea, saying it is unmanageable.

***
I imagine the world as a cross of ASOIAF and heroic mythos - that is, there is politics between the heads of the clans and interclan politics, but most characters gain prestige and social status by heroic (or antiheroic) deeds the patron deity demands. 

The world involves playing with conventions - i.e., it is set underground, and underground isn't as dark as people imagine it to be. Elves do not live in forests. Humans are set in the role of Others, orcs - i.e. a vague evil threatening the status quo.

In my writing, I focus on the elves. Dwarves, short folk and the outsiders are the background.

Also, currently I use Gaelic for names (surnames are often meaningful). Alas, the list of known Gaelic names is rather short and I've had a reader or two complain that character names sound like taken from/compiled using a list. Therefore, I've been thinking of using Latin instead of Gaelic, including the praenomen - nomen - cognomen convention... Which do you think is better?

I need help in working out the details of history, culture, religion and the like. Also, the starting population is bugging me quite a bit.


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## Sheilawisz (Nov 24, 2012)

Hello Zireael, welcome to Mythic Scribes!!

Your world sounds very interesting, I bet that you will get loads of feedback in this thread.

I have removed the link to your blog, sorry. You can have links as part of your Signature, and if you want to self-promote your story then you are welcome to start a thread at the Self-promotion forum.

I hope to see you in the Mythic Chat soon =)


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## shangrila (Nov 25, 2012)

It definitely sounds unique. To answer your question, I'd rather Gaelic. Latin is a little overused in my opinion.

The main thing I didn't get was how light works. I know that you said it's "not as dark as people imagine", but what exactly does that mean? Is there an artificial sun, or is it like when your eyes adjust? Do they even have eyes? Do they use fire? What do they use for fuel if they do? 

I think your friends might be partially right. There's a ton of work that would be needed for the reader to really feel like it's a legitimate world. That's not to say it can't be done or you shouldn't try it though.


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## Zireael (Nov 25, 2012)

> I think your friends might be partially right. There's a ton of work that would be needed for the reader to really feel like it's a legitimate world. That's not to say it can't be done or you shouldn't try it though.


I've had a reader of my story say that it's a remarkably consistent world so far, but I still think there is a lot of stuff to be done. Therefore, I kept looking for worldbuilding forums, since there's only so much you can do by yourself.



> The main thing I didn't get was how light works. I know that you said it's "not as dark as people imagine", but what exactly does that mean? Is there an artificial sun, or is it like when your eyes adjust? Do they even have eyes? Do they use fire? What do they use for fuel if they do?


There are magic light sources used in the cities, called dragon light. (The legend goes that in the First Age, the first leader of the elves defeated a powerful dragon, and from his fire the mages created the first dragon light).
In other areas, it's 'like when your eyes adjust'. Yes, all the inhabitants of the world have eyes (save for perhaps some underwater or living-in-the-rock animals).
Due to the existence of dragon light, fire isn't exactly needed. Well, I'm considering it being used for warmth, but it might be dangerous in smaller corridors, tunnels or caverns (fumes thickening, asphyxiation and other unpleasant stuff).

***

Oh, I mentioned animals. This is another thing I have problems with. Some of my Polish friends recommended several animals, there were only a handful of them, and I originally wanted to go with RL animals. Rats, spiders, snakes and the like would be fine, but they made me drop any flying carnivores (eagles) saying that they wouldn't have space. Even though I mentioned caverns several or even several _hundred_ kilometres high.

The core of the world radiates heat, so there are different climates in different layers of the world.


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## wordwalker (Nov 25, 2012)

Sounds like a dynamite idea. Caves are as epic as it gets, and you've got a great, solid concept for expanding it to a whole world.

So, a few worldbuilding specifics:



Zireael said:


> In other areas, it's 'like when your eyes adjust'. Yes, all the inhabitants of the world have eyes (save for perhaps some underwater or living-in-the-rock animals).
> 
> Due to the existence of dragon light, fire isn't exactly needed. Well, I'm considering it being used for warmth, but it might be dangerous in smaller corridors, tunnels or caverns (fumes thickening, asphyxiation and other unpleasant stuff).



But what would your eyes adjust to? The most startling thing about being in a cave is that if you click the light off, you start to realize it isn't just clouded-up night you'll need a few more minutes to adjust to, you've actually discovered true darkness as bad as being blind. Life forms still need some source of light. The usual answer is phosphorescent fungi, though you'd have to make them poisonous to make them so widespread that every creature evolved with eyes. Or it could be threads of magical minerals in the rocks.

I think you really want a sense of which terrains are "city lit," which are faintly "hunter lit" and which are pitch black-- until someone (or some Thing?) with a light source walks in. There are just too many factors that might get involved, and capturing the difference between them (and the odd sonar- or scent-hunting beast or true Darkvision Magic) is way more fun to embrace than to argue away. The underground *IS* degrees of fighting in the dark.

As for fire, you're quite right, it could be dangerous. But it's also vital, first to cook food (a huge early boost in civilization was getting at the extra calories in cooked food; it's been called a second stomach) and then to forge metals and other craftswork. A part of your world's flavor might be what mix of magical or chemical/herbal processes they use to do this without fire or to neutralize its smoke, and how much you just don't cook or forge in the smaller caves. (Maybe dwarves are the best smiths because they've got smokeless fire-- no wait, I heard that in the _Dragon Age_ game...)

Then again asphyxiation can be only so likely because an ecosystem like this still needs a lot of airmaking plants (or fungi, or whatever). You might have half of your world's surfaces be covered in moss-- or if you like most of your rock to still look like rock, have immense plants in certain caverns that waft fresh air to the rest of the world.



Zireael said:


> ...they made me drop any flying carnivores (eagles) saying that they wouldn't have space. Even though I mentioned caverns several or even several _hundred_ kilometres high.



Sounds like you do have space, if the caverns are also hundreds wide. It's just a matter of having enough space of vegetation to support a basic herbavore, and multiplying that for each step up the food chain; each eagle needs a lot of space.

This is one fascinating subject, different ways you might balance making your world do some of the things ours does versus when caverns just ought to be different, and when magic and such might rewrite it. Yum!


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## Saigonnus (Nov 25, 2012)

Zireael said:


> There are magic light sources used in the cities, called dragon light. (The legend goes that in the First Age, the first leader of the elves defeated a powerful dragon, and from his fire the mages created the first dragon light).
> In other areas, it's 'like when your eyes adjust'. Yes, all the inhabitants of the world have eyes (save for perhaps some underwater or living-in-the-rock animals).
> Due to the existence of dragon light, fire isn't exactly needed. Well, I'm considering it being used for warmth, but it might be dangerous in smaller corridors, tunnels or caverns (fumes thickening, asphyxiation and other unpleasant stuff).



Maybe dragon blood would be a more practical option... instead of an open flame. Imagine a substance that simply shines with light and radiates heat but without the side effects of smoke or using up all the oxygen (which it would in confined spaces) Maybe veins of the stuff can be mined for use in the cities and is common enough that it's pretty much everywhere, and different colors depending on the depth of the ground. 

Another option that is viable is the equivalent to Faerie Fire, which burns no fuel and if the enchanter is talented enough it can last forever on whatever is enchanted. Perhaps in the main thoroughfares they enchant the stalactites to glow and provide illumination to the surroundings... or some device (like a crystal) that can be adhered to the rock walls (which likely have been carved smooth over the centuries.


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## Zireael (Nov 26, 2012)

> A part of your world's flavor might be what mix of magical or chemical/herbal processes they use to do this without fire or to neutralize its smoke, and how much you just don't cook or forge in the smaller caves.



Good idea.



> Then again asphyxiation can be only so likely because an ecosystem like this still needs a lot of airmaking plants (or fungi, or whatever). You might have half of your world's surfaces be covered in moss-- or if you like most of your rock to still look like rock, have immense plants in certain caverns that waft fresh air to the rest of the world.


The idea is there will be lots of plants in certain caverns, so making them airmaking isn't hard, thanks.



> Maybe dragon blood would be a more practical option... instead of an open flame. Imagine a substance that simply shines with light and radiates heat but without the side effects of smoke or using up all the oxygen (which it would in confined spaces) Maybe veins of the stuff can be mined for use in the cities and is common enough that it's pretty much everywhere, and different colors depending on the depth of the ground.
> 
> Another option that is viable is the equivalent to Faerie Fire, which burns no fuel and if the enchanter is talented enough it can last forever on whatever is enchanted. Perhaps in the main thoroughfares they enchant the stalactites to glow and provide illumination to the surroundings... or some device (like a crystal) that can be adhered to the rock walls (which likely have been carved smooth over the centuries.



Dragon light was thought up as an equivalent to faerie fire, but not eternal - Treskri is a low-magic world compared to the standard D&D. The most common magic is divine magic, mostly healing. Resurrections sometimes happen. Mages are rare and their magic is not very powerful.

Dragon blood, on the other hand, is an excellent idea. So far, I have only covered RL metals and some minerals (elves use crystals, which they get from the dwarves or mine themselves) to focus arcane magic.


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## shangrila (Nov 26, 2012)

Zireael said:


> I've had a reader of my story say that it's a remarkably consistent world so far, but I still think there is a lot of stuff to be done. Therefore, I kept looking for worldbuilding forums, since there's only so much you can do by yourself.


All good then. Consistency is a key.




> There are magic light sources used in the cities, called dragon light. (The legend goes that in the First Age, the first leader of the elves defeated a powerful dragon, and from his fire the mages created the first dragon light).


What did the elves use for light before this then? 

wordwalker beat me to the rest, so I won't repeat that argument.



> Oh, I mentioned animals. This is another thing I have problems with. Some of my Polish friends recommended several animals, there were only a handful of them, and I originally wanted to go with RL animals. Rats, spiders, snakes and the like would be fine, but they made me drop any flying carnivores (eagles) saying that they wouldn't have space. Even though I mentioned caverns several or even several _hundred_ kilometres high.


It could work. I can see where they're coming from though; creatures that rely purely on flight to move wouldn't naturally fit in an underground environment.


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## Zireael (Nov 26, 2012)

> What did the elves use for light before this then?


The idea is that the underground is roughly as light as a cloudy afternoon RL, so I didn't think much of light before it. Besides, First & Second Age are pretty much legendary times, and the dragon defeat occurs well in the First Age.


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## DTowne (Nov 27, 2012)

Two things I would consider:


1) Bioluminescencent animals and Chemiluminescencent lighting. I had researched a bit on these two while writing a story, very promising. 

2) I saw you wanted flying animals, have you considered using gliding animals, such as the flying squirrel?


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## Zireael (Nov 28, 2012)

> 1) Bioluminescencent animals and Chemiluminescencent lighting. I had researched a bit on these two while writing a story, very promising.
> 
> 2) I saw you wanted flying animals, have you considered using gliding animals, such as the flying squirrel?



1) Bioluminescent stuff (animals and plants both) is something I have long considered.
2) Well I haven't. But these look like good fits.


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## Zireael (Nov 29, 2012)

I was thinking about animals again - which animals might the elves keep as household pets? I imagine snakes, spiders and cats might fit the role...

Also, do you think stoats could live in the world?


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## DTowne (Nov 29, 2012)

I can see stoats working they do live in burrows, though they don't make their own. The fact that males are very territorial with each other could add an interesting depth to the story. As for your snakes and spiders I see no reason they wouldn't work they are crearures of darkness and underground too. 

I myself always pictured Elves keeping tortoises (which wouldn't work in this case) or Koi fish (200 hundred years in some cases) because they, like elves, live so long. You did say colors and coat of arms were very important right? If so I think the Koi idea would play nicely. 

Also check out the cryptovolans, also known as the microraptor. It was a really cool four winged gliding lizard. Now extinct. If I remember right it was the size of a chicken or small dog. Perfect size for a pet don't you think?


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## Zireael (Nov 29, 2012)

Oh yeah, I saw microraptors in a TV documentary over the hols and they were really cool!

Anchiornis look really nice too. I am now trying to look up a list of small dinosaurs, alas, it only points me to the extremes (biggest and smallest, that sort of thing)


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## DTowne (Nov 29, 2012)

I don't know about finding a list of small dinosaurs but I can point in the direction of one really cool one.  Pegomastax. 

I'll have to check out this Anchiornis later. Its not ringing a bell.


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## Zireael (Nov 30, 2012)

Pegomastax looks really cool and could be a good fill in for the dogs.

I also thought that lizards of various kind could serve as mounts/beasts of burden.


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## Gurkhal (Nov 30, 2012)

There's been alot of discussion about the various parts of the nature, flora and fauna of the setting but I thought that I would put some spotlight on the actual society and stuff that's being presented.



Zireael said:


> The world itself, beyond the cities inhabited by elves and other races (that is, dwarves and short folk), is very dangerous. Death is very common; however, the deities often grant resurrection or rather, reincarnation.



One little question. If ressurection and reincarnation is common, as I've understand from the text, then how can it be considered safe? I'm all in favor of having arbitary death hanging over the characters but to me any kind of safety net, like divine interfierence could make it less threatning to merely annoying. Since i have noted that you have mentioned ASOIAF as a source of inspiration further down I would probably make the gods' benign aid a bit more uncommon.



Zireael said:


> There are, so far, three known cities in the world.



Does this mean there are three BIG population centres in the world or there are three noteworthy population centres in all?



Zireael said:


> Magic is pretty rare in the world, with clerical magic present a little more than arcane magic. Arcane magic uses crystals as foci, but both types of magic require that the caster be in the deity's favor.



Ok, sounds good to me as I like magic-light settings better than those with much magic in them.



Zireael said:


> The deities have much influence over the world - they have their servants and offspring and heroes. There is a creator deity, 8 greater deities - that is why 8 is the holy number - and some lesser deities. Heroes might also eventually become deities.



Forgive me for asking, but wouldn't 9 make more sense as a sacred number then? Provided that the creator deity isn't just some distant god which takes no part in what creation is up to. Otherwise I'm totally down with the idea of having there being greater and lesser deities. The chance of ascension for humans is also something that I think it pretty cool.

Do you have some additional thought about how this pantheon is structured? Like what are the "themes" of the major gods etc.? I have noticed further down that you draw alot of things from the influence of these deities and thus it would probably be a good idea to have a clue about what they are all about before going on with the details of the rest of the world.



Zireael said:


> Most noble houses trace their descent from one of the deities, which is their patron, and they assume the deity's colors as their own. The colors and the coats of arms are some of the most important things in the world.
> 
> There are 9 noble houses so far (I have yet detailed only 4). Been thinking of adding a 10th. I need to know what the starting population for each one can be for them to survive. Note that there is no incest taboo in this world. Descent is traced matrilinearly, but aside from that, there is near complete equality between sexes. By tradition, the ruler of a noble house is always a woman and she can keep a harem. All her children are considered legitimate, although the father's position may affect the child's.


Â´

Only nine nobles houses seems pretty scarce to me, although of course I don't know how big the population is beneath them. One idea you could have is to have eight great houses that claim descent from the major deities and then have less prestigious houses underneath these who claim descent from the lesser deities. If you want the arrangement and hierarchy of the divine could thus mirror the one among mortals. 

In regards to equality I think that you have kind of made some things that makes this society look unequal, at least to me as a Westerner, in that the highest political power is reserved for woman and that you trace descent by the mother. I don't think that you should skip any of these parts, but I would perhaps not type it out to say that it is "near complete equality between the sexes".

Another question is, which might draw some ire but I think that I should ask it anyway, how do they decide who the is noble child's father? Because if the lady has a harem there might be more than one person that could reasonably be the father.



Zireael said:


> The First and the Second Era are purely legendary times; timekeeping starts in the Third Era, approximately 800 years ago.



Alright, although 800 years is fairly little to be honest. That might of course be in the interest of the setting but the First and Second Ages would probably still be fairly recent in its legacy to the world.



Zireael said:


> I imagine the world as a cross of ASOIAF and heroic mythos - that is, there is politics between the heads of the clans and interclan politics, but most characters gain prestige and social status by heroic (or antiheroic) deeds the patron deity demands.



How do clans come into this? Are they are same as noble houses or are they a different social grouping?


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## Rullenzar (Nov 30, 2012)

On the subject of animals I haven't seen anyone mention bats. For your flying animal needs. Because it's a world underground you should also think about how animals and everything look. I would expect they look far different then what we would imagine on the surface. Lots of evolution and adaptation to the surroundings. Saw someone mention Bioluminescent animals. 

As an argument to your freinds suggesting you scrap flying animals. I believe you can make it work, it is after all your world and who is to say you don't have gigantic miles on end caves where dragons could exist or whatever. It would be a simple geographical calculation. Species exist in certain areas and in the case of your world it's a matter of they can't fit into other parts of your world because maybe the paths are too small and they are forced to live and stay in that geographical location.


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## Zireael (Nov 30, 2012)

> Does this mean there are three BIG population centres in the world or there are three noteworthy population centres in all?



Well, there are villages and outposts and such, but I haven't detailed them, so yes, I guess  the word big should be there.



> Provided that the creator deity isn't just some distant god which takes no part in what creation is up to.


The creator deity is pretty distant - the Elf Queen has her clerics, but no house is under her patronage.



> Do you have some additional thought about how this pantheon is structured? Like what are the "themes" of the major gods etc.?



Well, the gods are as follows (deities in bold have a house under their patronage)
_The top of the top_:
Elf Queen - the creator god

_8 major deities_:
*War Queen*
Lord of Magic
*Lord of Nature aka Lord of Trees*
*Noble Queen* /there is a house which venerates both her and the Life-Giver; and is an offshoot of the house originally sworn to the Noble Queen/
*Life-Giver* /there is a house which venerates both her and the Noble Queen/
*Lord of Death*

Minor deities:
*Outcast*
Dark Lady (Dark Ruler? I'm not sure which one is a better translation)
*Beastlord*
Lady of the Light
Lord of the Dark

The Four (function as a single minor deity): -> the elemental deities
Red Prince
Blue Prince
Brown Prince
Silver Prince

I haven't yet decided on the divine patron of one of the other houses (Traidi Lan, which means full of tradition). The Noble Queen and the Life-Giver both have a single house + the Mian Lan (the undecided offshoot of the Uasal Lan) under their patronage, so I might be forced to:
a) make the Elf Queen their patron
b) invent a new deity
c) make some other deity their patron

Additionally, a good solution to the Mian Lan [full of desire] venerating two deities at once would be to invent a minor deity of sexuality...



> One idea you could have is to have eight great houses that claim descent from the major deities and then have less prestigious houses underneath these who claim descent from the lesser deities. If you want the arrangement and hierarchy of the divine could thus mirror the one among mortals.


This is a great idea, but I think I should finish notes on the houses I have now before I start inventing more! 



> Another question is, which might draw some ire but I think that I should ask it anyway, how do they decide who the is noble child's father? Because if the lady has a harem there might be more than one person that could reasonably be the father.



Well, magic comes in handy for such occasions. How do you think the Life-Giver's clerics keep meticulously detailed genealogy records?



> Alright, although 800 years is fairly little to be honest.


You're right - I picked 800 off the top of my head. On the other hand, it's long enough for a few generations to pass, while being short enough to allow for a long-lived elf to live [Iurnan Mian Lan, 450-900] and not allowing him to remember the Second Age.



> How do clans come into this? Are they are same as noble houses or are they a different social grouping?


Clans = noble houses. I use the two terms interchangeably, especially in the story, to avoid repetition.

@ Rullenzar: Oh, yeah. Bats fit nicely.


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## psychotick (Nov 30, 2012)

Hi,

It sounds like a strange world, similar in some ways to Verne's Journey to the Centre of the Earth. But you did mention two things that as a science geek troubles me. (And yes I know it's fantasy). Both are centred on the fact that they've got tunnels and caverns all the way to the core of the world. That sort of presupposes a round world and some basic science. 

First the core of Earth is a ball of spinning molten, highly metalic rock. Not the sort of place where you could have tunnels. But it is the sort of place which could give you the geothermal heat sources your civilization needs to keep going on. And second you mentioned gravity. Even if the world was solid all the way through and you could drill all the way down, gravity would still decrease as you got closer to the centre, and the centre you'd be weightless. I'd suggest shying away from the world reaching down all the way to the core. Verne could do it, but he was writing more than a hundred years ago.

Besides, if you do some basic calculations / guestimations, even if your tunnels went down only a few miles and didn't pierce the crust, you'd have an incredible amount of space to work with. Far more than we limited surface dwellers have.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Zireael (Dec 1, 2012)

I don't think I wrote anywhere that the tunnels extend to the core itself, just that the Higher World is the hottest because it's the closest to the core.


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## psychotick (Dec 1, 2012)

Hi,

Sorry my misread. Still I'd say stay away from getting too close to the core. In fact if the world is anything like Earth, I wouldn't want to leave the crust which would probably be no more than ten or twenty miles in depth. Once you leave the crust you reach the mantle and that's also hot. It's where volcanoes draw their magma from. But that could make an interesting side story where occasionally bits of magma / vents etc access the tunnels and they have to be somehow shut off.

As long as you're in the crust however, changes in gravity will be largely unnoticeable. As you get closer to the mantle, temperatires should rise, and so should pressure.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Zireael (Dec 1, 2012)

So you think gravity should work towards the core?

Is changeable gravity out of the question? I had it in the first draft, in order to fully use the possibilities created by 3-dimensional world...


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## DTowne (Dec 1, 2012)

Really quick, on the animals topic. Giant sized Moloch's would be really. Its something I always wanted to put into a story.


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## psychotick (Dec 1, 2012)

Hi,

If you're in the crust, then gravity should be fairly much what it is on the surface. The crust is only a very thin skin over the world.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Zireael (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks.

An issue I've been thinking about - I have the houses and the lineages discernible by hair and eye color. Should I add varied skin color, too? The Bhais Lan would get ivory skin, the Cogadh Lan - probably red, the Mian Lan would probably have pearl skin etc. etc.


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## wordwalker (Dec 2, 2012)

Zireael said:


> An issue I've been thinking about - I have the houses and the lineages discernible by hair and eye color. Should I add varied skin color, too? The Bhais Lan would get ivory skin, the Cogadh Lan - probably red, the Mian Lan would probably have pearl skin etc. etc.



Very possible. Does that mean each house is inbred (or large) so that its traits don't get diluted by marrying out? (Or I suppose people taking after the wrong ancestor could dye their hair for solidarity's sake, or be discreetly pushed back from politics as "not quite the voice of our house.")


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## Zireael (Dec 2, 2012)

wordwalker said:


> Very possible. Does that mean each house is inbred (or large) so that its traits don't get diluted by marrying out? (Or I suppose people taking after the wrong ancestor could dye their hair for solidarity's sake, or be discreetly pushed back from politics as "not quite the voice of our house.")



Yes to large, yes to inbred, and yes to dyeing.

EDIT: The only reason I haven't added varied skin colors yet is because I was afraid of people yelling out that this is racist...


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## Zireael (Dec 4, 2012)

Two last minute thoughts:
1) what about art? Should noble houses sponsor it? What about painting (mostly on the cavern walls)?
2) I thought of giving every year a name and an associated legend. Or would that sound like a FR-ripoff?


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## wordwalker (Dec 4, 2012)

Zireael said:


> 1) what about art? Should noble houses sponsor it? What about painting (mostly on the cavern walls)?
> 2) I thought of giving every year a name and an associated legend. Or would that sound like a FR-ripoff?



People aren't people without art. And if you have a strong aristocracy they'd of course want to sponsor it, to show off to each other and to have some control over what's out there. (I don't know if it would be entirely "on the cavern walls," you seem to have enough industry to create most of the other painting surfaces too.)

Naming the years is interesting, I guess if there was some vote or authority for choosing what to call each. What comes off as a ripoff of what is always hard to judge.


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## Phietadix (Dec 4, 2012)

Zireael said:


> Because the planet's core fluctuates and flashes, they can measure time without using magic. Their year has 12 months and every month has 4 weeks 8 days each.



Why is their year so close to ours? It is not measered in the same way. Why do they even have a year and months at all, years are based on the sun and months on the moon. You probably should make a different way of measuring time based more on the core. And it should be very different from Earth's


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## Zireael (Dec 4, 2012)

Phietadix said:


> Why is their year so close to ours? It is not measered in the same way. Why do they even have a year and months at all, years are based on the sun and months on the moon. You probably should make a different way of measuring time based more on the core. And it should be very different from Earth's



I thought of making some other calendar, but my friends told me to stop making it too weird... So I simply changed the number of days in a week, because of the holy number.

Alternately, elves could count days only and then group them in some groups of 8 or of a power of 8...


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## Phietadix (Dec 4, 2012)

Zireael said:


> I thought of making some other calendar, but my friends told me to stop making it too weird... So I simply changed the number of days in a week, because of the holy number.
> 
> Alternately, elves could count days only and then group them in some groups of 8 or of a power of 8...



The Eight day week makes sense for this but to me a 12 month year is to earth-like and doesn't seem right for this. It wouldn't be too weird or confusing in my opinion to have a completly different calender unless they have some way of seeing the night sky.


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## Zireael (Dec 4, 2012)

Phietadix said:


> The Eight day week makes sense for this but to me a 12 month year is to earth-like and doesn't seem right for this. It wouldn't be too weird or confusing in my opinion to have a completly different calender unless they have some way of seeing the night sky.



No, they don't; and yes, I see where you are coming from.


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## wordwalker (Dec 5, 2012)

Then again, if you decide on say a 10-month year to be different, and similar-size months (and days), that means a boy of 12 is only age 10 in earthlike years. Numbers get tricky.

(And, I think you need something like months, though it might help to find a name for them that doesn't have "moon" in it. A year is just too many days for people to think about without dividing it up in some way. Or maybe people say things like "We'll be back in maybe 4, 6 weeks.")


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## Rullenzar (Dec 5, 2012)

I think something like moon and sun cycles might work great here. Sun cycles for talking about the day. Moon cycles for weeks. 

" I'll be back at red dawn my lady."

or

" I'll see you at the trial at Half moon."

Just have to work out the time cycles between the various stages.

Ill leave this post in here but I just realized this is the underground planet thread. Apologies.


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## Phietadix (Dec 5, 2012)

Rullenzar said:


> I think something like moon and sun cycles might work great here. Sun cycles for talking about the day. Moon cycles for weeks.
> 
> " I'll be back at red dawn my lady."
> 
> ...



Our Calenender on Earth is based on the sun and the moon.


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## Rullenzar (Dec 5, 2012)

Yes but we don't refer to them the way I gave examples and depending on how his world works the cycles for his world may be different or can be manipulated to suit his needs.

Regardless I thought this was another thread. His world is underground so it doesn't really work unless you can see outside which I'm assuming you can't.

Guess my explanation was a tad bad, I see what your saying lol


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## Zireael (Dec 5, 2012)

I'll keep thinking about the calendar...

If you want, you can check out Zireael07 at Deviantart.com - I put up some CoAs and some sketches of characters.


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## Zireael (Dec 8, 2012)

Deities and colors affiliated with them:

*War Queen* - color: bloodred
Lord of Magic - color : not decided yet. Someone suggested purple.
*Lord of Nature aka Lord of Trees* - color: green
*Noble Queen* - color: gold
*Life-Giver *- color: silver
*Lord of Death* - color: black

Minor deities:
*Outcast* - color: brown/gray
Dark Lady (Dark Ruler? I'm not sure which one is a better translation) - color: navy
Beastlord - color: not decided yet
Lady of the Light - color: white
Lord of the Dark - color: gray

The Four (function as a single minor deity): -> the elemental deities
Red Prince - color: red
Blue Prince - color: blue
Brown Prince - color: brown
Silver Prince - color: silver



> I haven't yet decided on the divine patron of one of the other houses (Traidi Lan, which means full of tradition). The Noble Queen and the Life-Giver both have a single house + the Mian Lan (the undecided offshoot of the Uasal Lan) under their patronage, so I might be forced to:
> a) make the Elf Queen their patron
> b) invent a new deity
> c) make some other deity their patron
> ...



Comments? Help on the problematic matters?


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## wordwalker (Dec 9, 2012)

Zireael said:


> Deities and colors affiliated with them...



Nicely thought out. Still, when you have fifteen deities, giving them simply a color may not be enough because it's hard to resolve that many fine variations in color. (Or it just sounds awkward describing so many. I tend to stop at the three primary and three secondary colors plus black, white, and gray.)

You might adjust this by giving each one not precisely a color but an icon, some object that represented them. If that object included a particular shade of color (eg a bloody claw) that color would still be used on most of the deity's things, but the icon makes it all easier to describe.

(Or there's the Amber approach that everyone uses a combination of at least two colors. But that evokes human heraldry more than divine focus.)


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## kilost (Dec 9, 2012)

What are the chances, I was helping you out with the demographics for this over on Alternate History Forums.

I'm very interested to see how it develops, as I said before, a very interesting take on Elves and fantasy in general.


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## Zireael (Dec 10, 2012)

Hi, kilost, thanks for the nice words.

I wouldn't want to use icons for deities, as there are already coats of arms for noble houses, and every noble house is going to be made of several branches, every one having a variant of the house's coat of arms... I think I'll stick to colors, I might just need to add shades of a particular color - ie. blood red War Queen, light red Red Prince...


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## Zireael (Dec 15, 2012)

One of the houses is giving me a lot of trouble (remember, every house has two colors). Currently, one of the two colors is black. The patron is the Outcast. I am planning to do a new coat of arms for them, this time with bend sinister, with the connotations of outcast/illegitimate.

First, I wanted the house to have silver, but silver is already taken (in coat of arms of the Uasal Lan [no. 2 on my DA account] and as a hair color of the Mian Lan, whose coat of arms is no. 3).
Then I wanted the color to be brown (or tenny), but I ran into the fact that I have a deity called the Brown Prince (who is not the patron deity of the house which has this coat of arms)... and I really can't rename the Brown Prince since he has to do with earth element. Green is already taken by the Lord of Trees.
And black is already taken by a deity of death and his house...

How do I explain two deities having brown as their color? Unless you can think of another color related to earth, the Brown Prince has to stay.


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## wordwalker (Dec 15, 2012)

Zireael said:


> One of the houses is giving me a lot of trouble (remember, every house has two colors). Currently, one of the two colors is black. The patron is the Outcast. I am planning to do a new coat of arms for them, this time with bend sinister, with the connotations of outcast/illegitimate.
> 
> First, I wanted the house to have silver, but silver is already taken (in coat of arms of the Uasal Lan [no. 2 on my DA account] and as a hair color of the Mian Lan, whose coat of arms is no. 3).
> Then I wanted the color to be brown (or tenny), but I ran into the fact that I have a deity called the Brown Prince (who is not the patron deity of the house which has this coat of arms)... and I really can't rename the Brown Prince since he has to do with earth element. Green is already taken by the Lord of Trees.
> ...



_(Erases "witty" ways to sound smug...)_

I'm not sure it's mathematically possible, not when you have this many houses and gods and all, and then get into cross-connections. 

But looking at this, I think I was wrong on my theory that colors can't be that finely distinguished-- for a culture that grew partly around this, they *would* see the difference between Light Brown, Dark Brown, and as many other shades as needed for politics, and be shocked by any outsider who didn't. (I mean, our artists really did come up with all those variations of blue.)

The tricky part is finding words for it; you'd need to give a house some cool term that's better than Light Brown to make the distinctions, and also near the start of the story plant a prominent description of that house's colors that tells the reader it really means light brown.


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## Zireael (Dec 15, 2012)

Dark Brown for Brown Prince and light brown for Outcast would work... Or should I make it grey for the Outcast?


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## kilost (Dec 16, 2012)

You seem to be going into a very high level of detail on Elven society. Are you also exploring other aspects of the world?


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## Zireael (Dec 16, 2012)

kilost said:


> You seem to be going into a very high level of detail on Elven society. Are you also exploring other aspects of the world?



I will, once I update my notes - and I'll probably update them after Dec 18, as I'm handing in an essay at that date and I'm insanely busy finishing it now.


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## Zireael (Dec 18, 2012)

Do you think something akin to hemolytic disease could happen in this world?

(I'll update the notes this afternoon, after I hand in the essay)

P.S. What did you think of my notes? Did anyone try to read the GT-translated version?


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## Zireael (Dec 19, 2012)

I need a good source on color meanings. Tips? Links?


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## Gurkhal (Dec 19, 2012)

Zireael said:


> I need a good source on color meanings. Tips? Links?



I'm kind of assuming you are talking about heraldry in which case the word is probably tincture.

I'm no way an expert but this may give a hint about how it works. 

Heraldry - Meaning


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## Zireael (Dec 20, 2012)

A sketch of one of the parts of the world - I forgot which one, I think it's the Lower World.








Some more general thoughts:
1) do you think that there could be seasons in an underground world?
2) What do you think of an 8-day week and 8-week month and 8-months long year? 
3) Am I allowed to post links now? I'd post a link to my notes and to my DA page, since I have a lot of Treskri-related stuff on it...


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## Zireael (Dec 21, 2012)

Google-translated notes - They are originally from Polish, but this way you'll know what I'm thinking about

List of names I'm using - isn't the list too small/too short? Would I be better off using Latin names?

My profile on DA - with some concept art for Treskri


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## Zireael (Dec 22, 2012)

Once again, on the topic of names. I thought of using Native American style names, i.e. Cunning Snake, Swift Horse, Red Fox, Many Horses... What do you think of it?


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## Phietadix (Dec 22, 2012)

Hmm. That would require snakes, horses, and foxes to name them after. Also it doesn't seem right for elves, maybe if you have a more tribal people you could name them that.


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## Zireael (Dec 22, 2012)

Phietadix said:


> Hmm. That would require snakes, horses, and foxes to name them after. Also it doesn't seem right for elves, maybe if you have a more tribal people you could name them that.



Well, maybe not exactly horses, but foxes and snakes do exist in the world.
I simply mean names which are immediately meaningful and which are translated across languages (Many Horses = Wiele Koni = Muchos Caballos). That's what I meant by "Native American-style".

 I know it doesn't seem "right", but part of my idea is to play with conventions.


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## Zireael (Dec 25, 2012)

One more thing: I loved the idea of exchanging cloaks in G.R.R. Martin's ASOIAF. Did he come up with this himself, or is it based on some ancient tradition I don't know about? Google isn't helping much.


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## Zireael (Dec 27, 2012)

Any ideas regarding the world as such? Do you think there would be continents? Climate changes? Seasons?


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## Zireael (Jan 1, 2013)

Any ideas? Comments?


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## DTowne (Jan 4, 2013)

I doubt that there would be seasons or much in the way of weather. Temperature is supposedly relatively static underground only getting hotter closer to the core or near volcanoes (I'd guess). I can see there being continents and depending on how shallow the seas and oceans are, if any, you could possibly have a limited number of remote or hard to navigate tunnels beneath.


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## Zireael (Jan 8, 2013)

I think you're right about seasons. 
Right now, I'm reading an interesting timeline with a Venus planet in place of Mars and I think the problem with Treskri is that we can't talk about landmasses and oceans when the world is underground... or can we?


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## wordwalker (Jan 8, 2013)

If you want oceans, sure, though it would take divine action or one complex ecosystem to rationalize them. (Or did they form Above and spill down; _is_ there an Above?)

The question then is, what's the real shape of your caverns and things, and how would "sea level" spread out across it? Tunnels (like lava tubes) now miles underwater? Would an ocean-sized gathering of the water have land masses that poked above it, or just high ground on the edges?


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## mbartelsm (Jan 8, 2013)

I don't think continents is the right name, but you could have large areas where big cave systems are common, and these areas (the size of a real life continent) are surrounded by not so accessible regions where travel is very hard, often, a cave or two would lead into another 'continent' with the same characteristics.


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## DTowne (Jan 8, 2013)

great wall of vietnam cave - Google Search

This goes along with mbartelsm's suggestion. 

Maybe your peoples would know of landmasses from occassional collapses where seawater floods caves as well as having to travel long distances to reach certain areas of the world by descending to the suboceanic cave systems.


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## Zireael (Jan 12, 2013)

Wow, love the great caves in Vietnam, thanks!

Somehow related - what do you think for using a stylized font for chapter titles? I've found several neat-looking quasi-Arabic fonts. Or I could use Intellark and type the names in real Arabic (yes, I've started learning the language)...


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## DTowne (Jan 13, 2013)

I think I'd go quasi-arabic if you can find one that is readable in english. 

And to wordwalker you wouldn't need divine intervention or whatever for oceans. I believe its jupiter that has a moon with an underground ocean.


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## wordwalker (Jan 13, 2013)

DTowne said:


> And to wordwalker you wouldn't need divine intervention or whatever for oceans. I believe its jupiter that has a moon with an underground ocean.



Fair enough. Although, that mainly applies if you have a complete ecology including a surface, the one thing we haven't been talking about. Is there an Outside?


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## DTowne (Jan 14, 2013)

Good point, something I wondered myself and for some reason never thought to ask.


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## Zireael (Jan 14, 2013)

Well, for geological reasons, if the Inside is completely closed up, you have an Outside. But the inhabitants do not know about it and it's irrelevant.

I'll have to look up this moon with an underground ocean...


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## DTowne (Jan 14, 2013)

If I remember correctly. The moons surface is frozen solid for something sixty miles deep and the tidal pull of (saturn/jupiter?) along with passing moons keeps the core warm enough for liquid water to exist.


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## Zireael (Jan 19, 2013)

About skin color - I wondered earlier about changing each house's skin color. However, that might pose a problem in the story - readers will automatically assume the character is Eurasian white unless I repeatedly state otherwise...


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## Saigonnus (Jan 19, 2013)

wordwalker said:


> If you want oceans, sure, though it would take divine action or one complex ecosystem to rationalize them. (Or did they form Above and spill down; _is_ there an Above?)



I would think a water world (like 90+ percent water) would be kind of cool, with only a handful of islands above ground. Perhaps that could explain having water beneath the ground. 

Another option would be a chemical reaction (via some catalyst [crystals, plants or whatever] that turn the ordinarily unbreathable atmosphere (perhaps hydrogen based) to oxygen. Imagine having a bed of fungus or something like that and as the lowest layer of "air" along the ground interacts with the crystals it absorbs the trace gases (argon, helium etc) and as a waste biproduct produces oxygen that mixes with the hydrogen in the air to make water which drips to the ground and eventually makes it's way down to the aquifers below ground.

A second chemical reaction below ground could separate some of the oxygen from the flowing water of the aquifers for air to breathe for the denizens below ground.


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## Zireael (Jan 22, 2013)

I just found these two:

Hollow Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Subterranean fiction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anything worth looking into?


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## DTowne (Jan 22, 2013)

I think some mixture of Hollow-earth theory and this would help. Europa (moon) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Zireael (Feb 12, 2013)

Yeah, I looked Europa up and the warm underground ocean theory sounds brilliant!


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## Zireael (Mar 2, 2013)

The introduction to Treskri has been revised.

A friend suggested I make a PDF, but I feel too much is missing - for example, half of the noble houses are not described.


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## DTowne (Mar 9, 2013)

I don't know if you'll see this in time, but in 3 hours from my post so at 5 p.m. American central standard time. On the channel history 2 (don't know if you get that in poland) but theres a show coming on called Journey to the earth's core. I think it would really help your world. 

Maybe you can find it online.


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## Zireael (Jan 16, 2014)

I'm baack.
I've been thinking about it some more and I think the inhabitants could give off light in various ways (chemosynthetic, photosynthetic).
Which one do you think would work better?

Looking into various modes of vision right now. Due to the fact that it is mostly dark - I imagine the lighting level roughly equal to a perpetual twilight (polar night/midnight sun) - (photosynthetic plants notwithstanding) do you think we'd have any di- or trichromatic life? Or would they be monochromatic all, since color wouldn't be necessary? Or maybe they'd be tetrachromatic in order to be able to pick up IR?


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## DTowne (Apr 12, 2014)

Are you still working on this story. I just saw you posted this now. 

I personally would go chemosynthetic seeing as photosynthetic needs the sun. 

Humboldt squids have a very interesting way of communicating with each other that may work for you with a little tweaking. 

Seeing into IR or UV would be great with your tetrochromatic idea.


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