# Help with a villain



## Ireth (Mar 26, 2012)

I'm having some trouble with the villain of one of my stories, namely how to portray him without raising people's hackles. His name is Martin, and he's the equivalent of Frollo in my (very loose) adaptation of The Hunchback of Notre Dame. The main characters are Diana and Vincent -- Diana is the bellringer, and Vincent is her love interest.

In keeping with the love/lust triangle in the original story, I want Martin to lust after Vincent at the same time as Diana loves Vincent. Unfortunately this raises some issues, as Martin is both Diana's ex-fiance (thus necessitating him being bisexual for the plot to work) and a deacon of the Leeds Parish Church (which raises potential issues about sexuality/lust and the church). Admittedly I think the latter was there in Hugo's original novel, but the former is still something I'll have to work out.

I don't want people to see Martin and scream "oh, she thinks bisexuals are EVIL!", because for the record, I don't think that way at all. That's just what works for the story I want to tell. He's meant to be evil first and bisexual second -- albeit a heavily closeted bisexual. I deliberately flipped the genders of the protagonists to provide a new spin on the story, and a friend of mine suggested I bring Diana's ex-fiance in as the bad guy. Flipping Martin's gender as well and making her more of an abusive mother figure would not work at all, since I don't think women were allowed in positions of such power back in those days. I'm going for historical accuracy as much as possible, minus the werewolves and mages.


----------



## Anders Ã„mting (Mar 26, 2012)

What time period is the story set in? 

Also, how evil is Martin actually? I mean, he sounds pretty complex, so I doubt we're talking mustache-twirling tie-you-to-the-railroad-track type evil. The bisexuality thing probably won't be a problem if you write him well and, you know, don't make him a caricature of sexual depravation or anything. The message you want to get across is that his sexuality doesn't really factor into his villainy - he'd act the same way if he was a straight man dealing with two girls.

Plus, if his repression and conflict of faith ties into his behaviour, he's probably more likely to earn sympathy points.


----------



## Ireth (Mar 26, 2012)

The story is set in medieval England, specifically the 1400's. I wanted to stick close to the original Victor Hugo story in that regard, since many of my friends advised me not to make this a modern retelling.

Martin is bigoted toward the werewolves and mages, much like Frollo was toward the Roma, and wants to see them destroyed. Trouble is, he can't find where they're hiding. When Diana is bitten and becomes a werewolf, Martin breaks their engagement for fear that if they married and had children, either a) they would be werewolves too, or b) Diana would eat them. Martin views Diana as less than human, calling her a bitch and a monster as part of his abuse. He thinks Diana can tell him where the werewolves and mages are hiding (she can't) because her attacker would have told her the secret (he didn't, as he was killed minutes after biting her). Rather than killing her, Martin has her locked in the belltower, and proceeds to physically, mentally and emotionally abuse her in the hopes of breaking her down enough so she'll tell him what he believes she's hiding from him; she can't convince him that she doesn't know anything about the other werewolves at all.


----------



## Penpilot (Mar 26, 2012)

I'll echo a little of what's already been said. As long as you don't write Martin as "the evil-bi-sexual", but instead as a fully realized person who so happens to be bi-sexual, I think that's all you can do. Either the reader accepts a story or they don't. What's the saying? Try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one. Write your story, make the reader weep for the heroes and villains, and to the fires with anyone who'd judge the story solely on a characters sexuality.


----------



## Ireth (Mar 26, 2012)

I think a good part of the problem here is that I don't normally write from the POV of the villains in my stories, so any insight on their personalities is filtered through the lenses of the protagonists' perceptions. In this case, we'd get a very different picture of Martin when looking at him from his own perspective than from Diana's or even Vincent's. It could be a useful exercise to try using Martin's POV every so often throughout the story.


----------



## Anders Ã„mting (Mar 26, 2012)

Ireth said:


> The story is set in medieval England, specifically the 1400's. I wanted to stick close to the original Victor Hugo story in that regard, since many of my friends advised me not to make this a modern retelling.
> 
> Martin is bigoted toward the werewolves and mages, much like Frollo was toward the Roma, and wants to see them destroyed. Trouble is, he can't find where they're hiding. When Diana is bitten and becomes a werewolf, Martin breaks their engagement for fear that if they married and had children, either a) they would be werewolves too, or b) Diana would eat them. Martin views Diana as less than human, calling her a bitch and a monster as part of his abuse. He thinks Diana can tell him where the werewolves and mages are hiding (she can't) because her attacker would have told her the secret (he didn't, as he was killed minutes after biting her). Rather than killing her, Martin has her locked in the belltower, and proceeds to physically, mentally and emotionally abuse her in the hopes of breaking her down enough so she'll tell him what he believes she's hiding from him; she can't convince him that she doesn't know anything about the other werewolves at all.



So basically, his main character trait is paranoia? He's obsessed with finding the werewolves and he also feels he can't trust Diana because she's one of them, which in turn makes him abusive towards her. 

That's a pretty reasonable psychology for a villain, actually, and it doesn't seem to have anything to do with his sexual orientation. I say go for it.



Ireth said:


> I think a good part of the problem here is that I don't normally write from the POV of the villains in my stories, so any insight on their personalities is filtered through the lenses of the protagonists' perceptions. In this case, we'd get a very different picture of Martin when looking at him from his own perspective than from Diana's or even Vincent's. It could be a useful exercise to try using Martin's POV every so often throughout the story.



Do you write first person of third person perspective?


----------



## Ireth (Mar 26, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> Do you write first person of third person perspective?



Typically I stick with third person limited. Whether or not I switch character POVs depends on the work in question; my novel _Low Road_ is written entirely from the main protagonist's point of view, while both books in my unfinished duology, _Winter's Queen_ and _Summer's Blood_, are written from multiple protagonists' viewpoints. This story is probably going to be from multiple viewpoints as well.


----------



## Caged Maiden (Mar 27, 2012)

If you don't make a big deal about his sexuality, I don't believe a reader will.  I remember reading a novel once (the second in a series that I didn't read the first of) and the author kept talking about these characters, and about seven chapters in I realized they were gay.... and then the story made sense, but that was all I thought about it.  

Just a note about marriage..... People did not marry for love in the time period you're writing about.  No one expected to pick their own husband or wife, they deferred to their family's opinions, conceding that their parents could choose much better than they could themselves.  Even common people were married by their parents to the neighbor's son or daughter, or a friend... so it would be possible for him to have never been in love with her.  I don't know whether that sorts out your sexuality issue or not.  Also, whether people were gay or straight, they were expected to marry and would in most cases have done their duty (and maybe carried on outside their marriage) or gone to the priesthood.

Hope you find some or all of that useful in creating historical accuracy.


----------



## Ireth (Mar 27, 2012)

anihow said:


> If you don't make a big deal about his sexuality, I don't believe a reader will.  I remember reading a novel once (the second in a series that I didn't read the first of) and the author kept talking about these characters, and about seven chapters in I realized they were gay.... and then the story made sense, but that was all I thought about it.



I remember working on a story a couple of years ago -- it wasn't until the climax, thirty chapters in, that I finally realized the supporting protagonist was in love with the hero, when he specifically told the villain about it. That changed my whole opinion of their relationship, and is probably going to be a more significant plot point in subsequent drafts.



anihow said:


> Just a note about marriage..... People did not marry for love in the time period you're writing about.  No one expected to pick their own husband or wife, they deferred to their family's opinions, conceding that their parents could choose much better than they could themselves.  Even common people were married by their parents to the neighbor's son or daughter, or a friend... so it would be possible for him to have never been in love with her.  I don't know whether that sorts out your sexuality issue or not.  Also, whether people were gay or straight, they were expected to marry and would in most cases have done their duty (and maybe carried on outside their marriage) or gone to the priesthood.
> 
> Hope you find some or all of that useful in creating historical accuracy.



Those are very good points. Heck, Martin could just be flat-out gay, and engaged to Diana as a sort of cover for it. I can see him as having chosen the priesthood as a means to further suppress his desires. Though that does create a slight problem with the timeline of my story. I don't know how long it would take a man to go from being a priest to a deacon, or even to join the priesthood in the first place. I would think Martin needed to have some authority in the church just to be able to have Diana imprisoned there and be sure of her total secrecy; this is problematic if he has her locked up immediately after breaking their engagement. Seems to me I need to choose one or the other, priesthood or marriage, for it to make sense. Unless I'm mistaken and men were allowed to be clergy while engaged/married, and it's just monks who were celibate.


----------



## Caged Maiden (Mar 27, 2012)

this is a wiki that might give you an overview Clerical celibacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia At least if you look into this you might see something you want to research further.  

HAHA I was suggesting you make him gay... maybe I didn't say it right.  It makes loads more sense that way, that he would do his duty, but his own desires might have gotten in the way..... So anyways, celibacy was law, but there was a lot else going on, and after reading a little about it, I think it might come together.  I like your concept, it's fun and definitely something people can sympathize with.

Best wishes.


----------



## Anders Ã„mting (Mar 27, 2012)

anihow said:


> Just a note about marriage..... People did not marry for love in the time period you're writing about.  No one expected to pick their own husband or wife, they deferred to their family's opinions, conceding that their parents could choose much better than they could themselves.  Even common people were married by their parents to the neighbor's son or daughter, or a friend... so it would be possible for him to have never been in love with her.  I don't know whether that sorts out your sexuality issue or not.  Also, whether people were gay or straight, they were expected to marry and would in most cases have done their duty (and maybe carried on outside their marriage) or gone to the priesthood.



On the other hand, they did have the ideal of courtly love. That would have been the medieval equivalent of what we today think of as "true love."

To what degree it happened in reality is debatable, but it proves that people in medieval times did understand and even respect the concept of love as a strong mutual emotional attraction, rather then loving one another out of duty.



Ireth said:


> Those are very good points. Heck, Martin could just be flat-out gay, and engaged to Diana as a sort of cover for it.



I dunno... I sorta like the idea that he's still attracted to Diana because they used to court, but at the same time repulsed by her because she's now a werewolf.

If you think about it, that may actually mirror his feelings for Vincent - he desires this guy, but you say he's repressed about it and besides, it's the 1400s so that sort of thing is kinda frowned upon to begin with.



> I can see him as having chosen the priesthood as a means to further suppress his desires. Though that does create a slight problem with the timeline of my story. I don't know how long it would take a man to go from being a priest to a deacon, or even to join the priesthood in the first place. I would think Martin needed to have some authority in the church just to be able to have Diana imprisoned there and be sure of her total secrecy; this is problematic if he has her locked up immediately after breaking their engagement. Seems to me I need to choose one or the other, priesthood or marriage, for it to make sense. Unless I'm mistaken and men were allowed to be clergy while engaged/married, and it's just monks who were celibate.



I'm pretty sure Frollo was celibate in Hunchback of Notre Dame, which was pretty much the whole reason his passion for Esmeralda ends up ruining everyone's day. 

Your guy's problem is failry different, though: His feelings for Vincent are not socially acceptable and his feelings for Diana are marred by the fact that she has turned into something he hates - celibacy doesn't actually factor into his conflicts at all.

If you only need him to be a churchman as an excuse to have Diana locked away in the belltower, there are possibly ways to work around that. Some enterpretations of The Hunchback of Notre Dame makes Frollo a judge and Minister of Justice rather then an archdeacon - you can always go with that. Perhaps he just has a lot of money and political influence to throw around?

Edit: In the book, Frollo had a brother, right? Maybe Martin has a brother who is the churchman in question and Martin has some sort of hold on him - say a terrible secret? So he bullies the guy into keeping Diana locked up in the church because he doesn't want to cause a scandal by going public about his fiancÃ© being a werewolf? Just a thought.


----------



## Ireth (Mar 27, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> I dunno... I sorta like the idea that he's still attracted to Diana because they used to court, but at the same time repulsed by her because she's now a werewolf.
> 
> If you think about it, that may actually mirror his feelings for Vincent - he desires this guy, but you say he's repressed about it and besides, it's the 1400s so that sort of thing is kinda frowned upon to begin with.



That's very true. I was thinking Diana and Martin were good friends while growing up, and that might have influenced their parents' desire to have the two of them married, regardless of Martin's sexuality. So it's not necessarily a physical attraction per se, but there's still an emotional bond between them that's hampered by Diana's curse.



Anders Ã„mting said:


> I'm pretty sure Frollo was celibate in Hunchback of Notre Dame, which was pretty much the whole reason his passion for Esmeralda ends up ruining everyone's day.
> 
> Your guy's problem is failry different, though: His feelings for Vincent are not socially acceptable and his feelings for Diana are marred by the fact that she has turned into something he hates - celibacy doesn't actually factor into his conflicts at all.



I still think it does, to a degree. No matter what Martin's sexual orientation is, he's still struggling with the desire to have sex that's forbidden to him for multiple reasons. Lusting after a woman would be the lesser evil than lusting after a man.



Anders Ã„mting said:


> If you only need him to be a churchman as an excuse to have Diana locked away in the belltower, there are possibly ways to work around that. Some enterpretations of The Hunchback of Notre Dame makes Frollo a judge and Minister of Justice rather then an archdeacon - you can always go with that. Perhaps he just has a lot of money and political influence to throw around?
> 
> Edit: In the book, Frollo had a brother, right? Maybe Martin has a brother who is the churchman in question and Martin has some sort of hold on him - say a terrible secret? So he bullies the guy into keeping Diana locked up in the church because he doesn't want to cause a scandal by going public about his fiancÃ© being a werewolf? Just a thought.



Oooh, blackmail. I like that idea. What kind of a secret could the brother have, though? Maybe he's illegitimate -- I bet that would have been stigmatized back in the day. Especially if the illegitimate brother is the older one, who would have been expected to inherit his family's estate.


----------



## Aravelle (May 22, 2012)

My question is, why is Diana a bellringer? If she didn't always live there, why did she go poof? In all honesty, I don't like the idea of him just pushing around money and power to fake her death and hide her or something. It just seems... lame. Too simple and cheap.

Also, if Diana is the bellringer, I wouldn't expect her to be pretty, as she would be locked up and wouldn't care much about her appearance. Being a bellringer also would build muscle.

If this takes place in 1400's England, are the names accurate? And why England rather than France?


----------



## Ireth (May 22, 2012)

Diana is a bellringer because the job needed to be done, and she was an ideal candidate: no sense of hearing = it can't be damaged by the bells' very loud tolling. I've stated the reason for her being locked up in the tower several times, but I'll reiterate once again: she's locked up because she is bitten by a lycanthrope and needs to be hidden away for her own safety (as the villain sees it). The villain doesn't want to kill her because he believes she has information he needs to accomplish his goal, that being genocide of all lycanthropes.

Well, she may not be drop-dead gorgeous after years in the tower, but she's certainly not hideously deformed like Quasimodo.

I chose England rather than France because the hero, Vincent, is a pre-existing character in my mind and he lives in England (specifically Leeds). In some stories, Diana is his wife, and she lives in England with him and their children despite being American by birth. It was just easier to make them all English for this story. I'm not sure about the accuracy of the names, but as these are pre-existing characters, changing them would affect my ability to characterize them properly as themselves. The story was initially going to be set in modern times, as the characters already are, so historical accuracy was kind of a moot point.


----------



## Targon (Nov 26, 2012)

It would depend on the amount of power he holds I think. Maybe because he works for the church he would have a personal guard? Its all up to you. People breaking their religion especially if they are very active in that religion is pretty psychologically damaging. They are essentially breaking away from all they believe.


----------



## Anders Ã„mting (Nov 27, 2012)

Oh, hey. I'd forgotten how much I liked this concept.



Aravelle said:


> Also, if Diana is the bellringer, I wouldn't expect her to be pretty, as she would be locked up and wouldn't care much about her appearance. Being a bellringer also would build muscle.



Eh. Short of aging, serious illness and doing hard drugs, it's not like beauty degrades if you don't maintain it - a genuinely pretty woman is always pretty, everything else is a matter of enhancement. 

As long as she keeps herself reasonably clean, fed and healthy, her looks probably wouldn't suffer much by 15th century standards. Keeping in shape by tolling the bells probably just helps. Not to mention the potential physical benifits to being a werewolf. (I dunno, Ireth, are there any?)



Targon said:


> Maybe because he works for the church he would have a personal guard?



That's unlikely unless this guy is Cardinal Richelieu-level important, and I'm not sure Deacon of Leeds quite cuts it. Still, if he's looking to commit some werewolf genocide, one might expect him to at least have some sway over the local militia.


----------



## Ireth (Nov 27, 2012)

Targon said:


> It would depend on the amount of power he holds I think. Maybe because he works for the church he would have a personal guard? Its all up to you. People breaking their religion especially if they are very active in that religion is pretty psychologically damaging. They are essentially breaking away from all they believe.



I'm not sure if there will be any "breaking away" from religion involved. The villain is seeking to eradicate the werewolf population in the name of God, and Diana keeps a strong hold on her faith as a means of dealing with her circumstances. Vincent, the mage hero and Diana's love interest, likely sees his powers as a gift from God rather than a curse, as many others would brand it.



Anders Ã„mting said:


> Oh, hey. I'd forgotten how much I liked this concept.



Heh, I didn't think people would still read this. ^^



Anders Ã„mting said:


> Eh. Short of aging, serious illness and doing hard drugs, it's not like beauty degrades if you don't maintain it - a genuinely pretty woman is always pretty, everything else is a matter of enhancement.
> 
> As long as she keeps herself reasonably clean, fed and healthy, her looks probably wouldn't suffer much by 15th century standards. Keeping in shape by tolling the bells probably just helps. Not to mention the potential physical benifits to being a werewolf. (I dunno, Ireth, are there any?)



Yes, exactly. She's not all that old even by medieval standards, and while she may have some scars, both from being attacked by a werewolf and later by the possibility of flipping out as a wolf in captivity, those would be easily hidden by her clothing.

Being a werewolf does have its advantages -- heightened sense of smell, for one, as well as a somewhat faster rate of healing than your everyday human. The exception to the fast healing is with silver; those burns take longer to heal. She may have an increased pain tolerance as well; I don't imagine the shift from human to wolf and back again would be painless, and she'd grow used to it over a matter of years.



Anders Ã„mting said:


> That's unlikely unless this guy is Cardinal Richelieu-level important, and I'm not sure Deacon of Leeds quite cuts it. Still, if he's looking to commit some werewolf genocide, one might expect him to at least have some sway over the local militia.



Good point. That seems likely, since he's channelling Frollo from the original story, and at least in the Disney version Frollo had some sway over the likes of Phoebus, a soldier. (Haven't read the original book, so I dunno so much about that.)


----------

