# Is it possible to become a writer without having the best English education?



## Xanados (Jan 26, 2012)

The writing sections, believe it or not, didn't really suit this topic, so I'll just put this here.

There is a question on my mind that I have yet to ask. I should have asked it when I began writing, but I guess I just repressed it. I, like a lot of you, started writing when I was very young. It was only half a year ago I decided that I would change my "path" and become a writer.

Throughout high-school I showed only a modicum of effort as I am not an academic person by nature, and I was only good at one subject: Computing. I don't mean that I rebelled or was generally unintelligent; I mean I was uninterested in most of my studies. English class in my school focused greatly on the study of other works of literature and often neglected grammar and punctuation. The class was, quite frankly, polluted with plebian stereotypes. I left gladly uneffected.

I don't have a direct question for you because I can answer it myself. My question would be, "can one be a writer if they haven't been taught the more difficult aspects of grammar?", but I already think one could. I know that there is a plethora of information available online, and I know that the amount to which we understand grammar varies greatly in this community. I was never taught things such as the "subordinate clause", "subjunctive" and "infinitive” when I was younger. Where you?

I find myself thinking shameful thoughts that I am a native English speaker and I do not know these rules. I am only 18 years old, but is that really any justification? I think that I have a decent amount of knowledge already, but what I want is to become a scholar in the art, someone who knows the language inside out. Or is that not necessary?

Is it possible to become a writer without having the best English education?

Edit: apparently there are a few questions on my mind, not just one 
Edit: another late night post that is barley coherrent. Excuse me.


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## Codey Amprim (Jan 26, 2012)

Well I thought this myself. We have a LOT in common. My schooling experience was quite the same, especially the bit about the English department teachings. It's a damn shame (pardon my French, 'tis rather infuriating).

That's why I decided to go to college in hopes to, not so much learn English, but to be pushed in the right direction. Try going to a college for creative writing; I know there's a few online colleges and stand-alone courses you can take if you want to gauge yourself. My honest opinion about my college experience so far (I'm only in my 2nd semester as a creative writing major) is that it is ultimately worth it. I've learned a ton outside of writing (which is great, considering that expanding your knowledge to greater bounds as a writer is never a bad thing) that I may apply to my writing and creative processes, but in writing and composition, even though I may have only learned a few new things, it all helps - especially now that I know how to properly use semi-colons and the distinction who-whom. Sure, you could have learned these things online, but I think that the college experience is far more valuable.

In answer to your question, though, I would say that it isn't necessary to become a writer without a great English education. We're all writers here, or at least I hope so. I am not expert on this by all means, nor do I claim my writing to be perfect in any way; I'm just trying to give you advice I wish I had when I embarked on my college journey; I'd still love to hear from a successful fantasy writer, for that's my dream career. I would say that it's definitely worth it if that is what you REALLY want to do with your life, like me, but you don't need to. I'd like to discuss this some more with you, for I do not want to say more without some sort of response so you don't end up reading a thousand lines of text.


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## Reaver (Jan 26, 2012)

I have to agree with Codey, here, Xanados.  I believe that excellent grammar skills are not a prerequisite for great storytellers.  Have you ever read anything by Cormac McCarthy?  There are no quaotations in the dialogue, hardly any punctuation marks and yet, in my opinion, he's a fantastic author.  Don't sell yourself short just because you don't have the grammatical expertise of a English Lit professor.  I've read your work here and I think it's very good.

So is yours, Codey, but I think I've already made that abundantly clear in other posts.


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## Devor (Jan 26, 2012)

Xanados said:


> TI was never taught things such as the "subordinate clause", "subjunctive" and "infinitive” when I was younger.



Last week I went to wikipedia to look up "conjunction" because I wasn't sure if there should be a comma before "so" when it's used as a conjunction, and whether "then" counted as a conjunction (yes to "so," I'm still not sure for "then").  I clicked on a link about misconceptions about English, and one of them had to do with splitting infinitives.  I clicked a link on infinitives and spent twenty minutes looking the subject over.  I still have no idea what an infinitive is.

Are you trying to be an _author_ or a copywriter?  I think the question speaks for itself.


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## Codey Amprim (Jan 26, 2012)

Devor said:


> Are you trying to be an _author_ or a copywriter?  I think the question speaks for itself.



That is a great quote, in my opinion.


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## Reaver (Jan 26, 2012)

Codey Amprim said:


> That is a great quote, in my opinion.



I'll second that...well said, Devor.


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## Xanados (Jan 26, 2012)

Thank you for the complement, Reaver. It was much appreciated. 

Devor, I understand what you mean by your question, but I can't answer it with any brevity. 

I feel like I need to become a literary scholar in order to do my "job" with the utmost efficiency. I understand that this is what a copywriter is for, but I've always felt that a writer should, well, be a _writer _. A painter doesn't have a helper who adds/subtracts parts of the original work in order to improve it, does he?

I know of a person that is considered to be a master of English. He knows Latin and can dissect many of its words and phrases. He's a big fan of etymology, too. He is not a writer, nor is he a professor. He went to university and is incredibly intelligent. This is the sole reason for my bringing this topic into discussion. I feel subpar. I call myself a hobbyist writer, but I don't fully understand the finer details of English grammar. Woe is me, etc.

This is actually a great discussion with many insightful replies, though. I hope this post furthers the discussion.


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## Devor (Jan 26, 2012)

Xanados said:


> I feel like I need to become a literary scholar in order to do my "job" with the utmost efficiency. I understand that this is what a copywriter is for, but I've always felt that a writer should, well, be a _writer _. A painter doesn't have a helper who adds/subtracts parts of the original work in order to improve it, does he?



Actually, the great Renaissance painters had workshops full of people who did just that.

Grammar is just a tool, and while you need to know how to use it effectively, you don't need to know how the motor works, so to speak.

So I would say skip the jargon and just pay attention to how different sentences are constructed.  That's all you really need.


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## myrddin173 (Jan 26, 2012)

Devor said:


> I still have no idea what an infinitive is.



The "to _____" form of the word.  In English it is used without people actually knwing what it is.  Infinitives are "more" important in other languages such as French.  For example _Ecriver_ is an infinitive, it means "to write."  They are also known as the "conjugated form of the word." (Conjugations, in case you don't know are the changes to a verb due to changes in number and person.  Am, are, is are all forms of "to be").  Truth be told I learned more about English grammar by taking French than in my English class.

As for the question no you don't have to have a great English education to be a writer, it will likely help but it isn't necessary.  I would suggest reading the book _Sin and Syntax_, I feel it gives the necessary information for writing without bogging you down with the boring stuff.  I quite enjoyed it.


(Now for some lighthearted fun - No, otherwise people who write in other languages, like Cornelia Funke [German], would be screwed.  It is necessary to know the _grammar_ of the language you are using.:Laugh:


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## The Blue Lotus (Jan 27, 2012)

Xanados said:


> Thank you for the complement, Reaver. It was much appreciated.
> 
> Devor, I understand what you mean by your question, but I can't answer it with any brevity.
> 
> ...



OK I'm just going to throw this out there you can take it or leave it as you like. 

If you can spell you can write. If you know how to structure a story you can write well. 
If you knew every grammar rule, and the exceptions to those rules... well love, you would never need to hire an editor. 
No one writes anything 100% correct the first time around, and 99.9% of writers hire Editors, to... you guessed it edit! 

Life is aweful short Xan, I highly suggest you not sweat the small stuff. Many of the Greats in the world Edison for example had helpers, Andy Warhol had several assistants who helpd him fine tune his masterpieces. Nothing is done alone... Unless of course, you're making ice cubes... pretty sure that is a solo job. :smoke:

Just think of it this way at least your mistakes are not glaring errors that will embarass your entire country. 

In the news today were pics of a road crew correcting a miss spelled word that was permanetly part of the pavement. "school" they had it as Scool or something like that. :stomp: The irony was that this was a "scholl" crossing reminder in front of a school!!!! :eek2: The fix cost NYC a ton of money took a year to get done and several man hours. It was highly embarassing to say the least.

I think if you can avoid that you will be fine :Wink:

In the Grand scheme of things I don't think a missing period is going to bring the world to a crashing halt, unless the period in question is not of the literary sort. But, then you will have other things to worry with. wink wink.


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## Kelise (Jan 27, 2012)

One of the bigger names in writing in Australia is Jackie French. Who used to be so dyslexic she would have to read her story aloud to her editor, who would then fix her work for her. 

Regardless, she has exactly 100 books published - in 30 years. She's won 29 awards and been shortlisted for a whole lot more. So if she isn't (extreme) proof, I don't know what is  

Sure, it may make it harder for some to be noticed. If a publishing house gets two awesome pieces of work that have kind-of the same story, but one has awesome grammar and the other needs a bit of work... then they'll take the one that has awesome grammar.

But it probably won't keep them out completely.


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## Reaver (Jan 27, 2012)

Whenever I feel bummed about my skills as a writer when compared to those who have a superlative grasp on the art, I think about some of the hand-painted road signs I've seen throughout my travels of rural USA.  Some examples: "Hey 4 Sail--Cheep!"
and "We ownlee speek anglish hear!"  :wink:  (By the way, I'm not making these up.)

Thinking about these cheer me up pretty quickly.  Hope they do the same for you.


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## Amanita (Jan 27, 2012)

A difficult question. There seem to be great differences between German and American schools. Here you can't pass through higher education without doing this kind of stuff and writing tests on it. In a language with so many different verb forms and cases for the nouns knowing a few rules is helpful indeed.
I've learned all the things you're talking about at school, in German class as well as in Latin class and later in French. Not so much in English class, maybe it really doesn't matter that much there. 
By the way, my father is a German teacher and wanted to make sure that I did well there too, of course. 

I'm not sure how important this is for writing however. If you're writing in a language you know well, you're probably not thinking about the exact term for the grammatical figure you're going to use next all the time. Doing it right becomes almost intuitive if you've been reading enough. 
If you're considering to create an invented language or make language matter in your story though, you should definitly spent a bit of time learning about this kind of thing. I don't think this would be that much of an effort and I believe that it can be done through books on grammer alone relatively easily.


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## The Blue Lotus (Jan 27, 2012)

Reaver said:


> Whenever I feel bummed about my skills as a writer when compared to those who have a superlative grasp on the art, I think about some of the hand-painted road signs I've seen throughout my travels of rural USA.  Some examples: "Hey 4 Sail--Cheep!"
> and "We ownlee speek anglish hear!"  :wink:  (By the way, I'm not making these up.)
> 
> Thinking about these cheer me up pretty quickly.  Hope they do the same for you.



I thought this might cheer some people up. Enjoy. https://www.google.com/search?q=fun...w.,cf.osb&fp=d38cc5e3e5e0aea&biw=1280&bih=717

Or just for giggles check these out! Funny Signs from Around the World - Ellen Degeneres Photo Gallery


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## Xanados (Jan 27, 2012)

Reaver said:


> Whenever I feel bummed about my skills as a writer when compared to those who have a superlative grasp on the art, I think about some of the hand-painted road signs I've seen throughout my travels of rural USA.  Some examples: "Hey 4 Sail--Cheep!"
> and "We ownlee speek anglish hear!"  :wink:  (By the way, I'm not making these up.)
> 
> Thinking about these cheer me up pretty quickly.  Hope they do the same for you.


I'm not particularly "bummed" about it. No, I'm just genuinely interested in the response. As foolish as this does sound, I don't think I am particularly bad at writing, so I'm not down on "my skills as a writer."

"We ownlee speek anglish hear!"

Was "anglish" wrote with a capital "A"?


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## Reaver (Jan 27, 2012)

Xanados said:


> I'm not particularly "bummed" about it. No, I'm just genuinely interested in the response. As foolish as this does sound, I don't think I am particularly bad at writing, so I'm not down on "my skills as a writer."
> 
> "We ownlee speek anglish hear!"
> 
> Was "anglish" wrote with a capital "A"?



I'm glad you're not bummed, Xanados! It doesn't sound foolish at all, you ARE an excellent writer! And no, "anglish" wasn't capitalized. I just thought of another instance that really bugs me.  The Sci-Fi channel's change of spelling to SyFy--WTF?  I mean, really?


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## myrddin173 (Jan 27, 2012)

Reaver said:
			
		

> Sci-Fi channel's change of spelling to SyFy--WTF?  I mean, really?



That was for legal reasons.  They couldn't copyright "sci-fi" they can "syfy" and it on merchandise.


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## Devor (Jan 27, 2012)

Reaver said:


> The Sci-Fi channel's change of spelling to SyFy--WTF?  I mean, really?



The official answer is that they wanted a name they could trademark.  The unofficial answer is that they wanted to expand their lineup beyond traditional science-fiction.


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## Reaver (Jan 27, 2012)

@ myrddin & Devor-  Thanks for clearing that up....

 Capitalism strikes again. I still refuse to refer to it in e-mails and such as SyFy. I have to admit that apart from the "original Sci-Fi movies", I'm still a fan of the network. What *really * bothers me is the History Channels "Monster Quest", "Ancient Aliens" and pretty much everything else that doesn't have anything to do with history. Perhaps I'll start a new thread about this grievance of mine.  But back on topic--SyFy seems to me like some dummy spelling science *"syince" *or some other stupid way.


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## Xanados (Jan 27, 2012)

And I think that's the signal for the closing of this thread. Just kidding. Great discussion so far. I'd really appreciate if anyone could tell me of their experience of English at school. Did you learn the more complex aspects of English grammar, or are you in a similar situation as me? Have you done most of your learning online? 

Edit: I just want to clarify that I am a native English speaker. I just get the feeling that my posts might sound as if that is not the case.


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## Codey Amprim (Jan 27, 2012)

Xanados said:


> And I think that's the signal for the closing of this thread. Just kidding. Great discussion so far. I'd really appreciate if anyone could tell me of their experience of English at school. Did you learn the more complex aspects of English grammar, or are you in a similar situation as me? Have you done most of your learning online?
> 
> Edit: I just want to clarify that I am a native English speaker. I just get the feeling that my posts might sound as if that is not the case.



For High School, since I'm guessing you completed it, my experience was a complete joke. There were three invisible "divisions" in the English department; the first was designated for the intelligence-lacking students, and they were the basic English 9-12; the second was College Prep, and I only took one year of it and absolutely hated it; lastly, the third division was Advanced English, and I heard from a close friend of mine that it was easier than the basic English classes.

My one year of college prep was terrible. It was all about memorizing speeches and trying to outdo your classmates with projects, even if they said that spending more money was =/= to higher grade. The books were about as boring as watching my toenails grow, and we never got to any of the good books that were in the curriculum such as _The Hobbit_ or _Beowulf._I remember spending nearly half of the school year in English 11 on _To Kill a Mockingbird_, and it bored me to tears all the way up to the absent climax of the story.

My senior year I joined the school newspaper as a staff writer and eventually the Local/Regional/National Editor. It, too, was a joke. The teacher, who was one of my favorites till I took that class, was completely favored the women over the guys. So... the majority of the newspaper ended up about stuff like Justin Beiber, fashion, and how to make fruit salad (no joke). I could rant all day about this....

College, though, is a different story, and so far, that year of college prep still proves useless. It's had a professional feel to it especially in the classroom, and the writing assignments aren't as drudging as they were in high school for me. As I said in my post earlier in this thread, it's a lot more enjoyable - plus, I'm actually learning things again with writing and the use of the English language.


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## Arcturus (Jan 27, 2012)

There's certainly a lot of elitism when it comes to having the "best English education".

As an English major, I'll probably get harpooned for saying this but I don't think it matters in the long run.  Language isn't static and as long as your message is conveyed to other people in a meaningful, it should be fine.  I mean, look at free verse poetry.  It breaks all the rules and people still appreciate what the author has to say.  While it helps to have a foundation of language, it shouldn't stop anybody from trying to write, just because they aren't the uptight know-it-all down the block.


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## Xanados (Jan 27, 2012)

Codey Amprim said:


> For High School, since I'm guessing you completed it, my experience was a complete joke. There were three invisible "divisions" in the English department; the first was designated for the intelligence-lacking students, and they were the basic English 9-12; the second was College Prep, and I only took one year of it and absolutely hated it; lastly, the third division was Advanced English, and I heard from a close friend of mine that it was easier than the basic English classes.
> 
> My one year of college prep was terrible. It was all about memorizing speeches and trying to outdo your classmates with projects, even if they said that spending more money was =/= to higher grade. The books were about as boring as watching my toenails grow, and we never got to any of the good books that were in the curriculum such as _The Hobbit_ or _Beowulf._I remember spending nearly half of the school year in English 11 on _To Kill a Mockingbird_, and it bored me to tears all the way up to the absent climax of the story.
> 
> ...


Count yourself lucky, my friend. I come from a place in the middle of nowhere. Back in school we had no such thing as school newspapers. It was bare-bones. There was nothing like that. It was a bunch of, pardon my French, degenerates -.- 
Even when I use that harsh word I don't think you'll be able to understand. Things are different in small Scotland. We've got no clubs, communities or big fancy meetings. College is the same. College in Scotland is nothing like it in the US: we don't sleep in dorms, we go home. My college experience was almost worse than school. I would go in for about 6 hours, learn nothing, and then get the bus home. It was... absent of any structure. Most of the teachers didn't come in to the one class. That's right, we don't take loads of classes like in the US. I didn't "graduate" I just left of boredom. 

I come from Scotland, where things aren't big and shiny.

Edit: The Beiber thing does sound pretty bad, though.

/Rant.


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## Amanita (Jan 28, 2012)

Someone should tell people to stop complaining about the German educational system, compared to what I'm reading here, it's really good. I've almost always been happy at school. (Relatively, I was glad when the week was over too, of course. )
We started learning English in year 5 (at around 11 years). At the beginning, we've only done really simple things and we've gone through the grammer issues one at a time. I've done okay but not very well, till I was thirteen and started reading Harry Potter in English. From then on I've always been among the top students in English class without doing any work at all (besides reading fantasy ) Books did it. That's a bit of advice for every potential: Read no matter what, to get familiar with various ways to express yourself via language. 
In year ten we started to read books in class as well, but mostly short, contemporary ones. In our last two school years, we read Death of a Salesman, Lord of the Flies, Macbeath and our exam book, "One language, many voices" (various short stories written by people from the British colonies.) 

In German class we spent our first seven school years with spelling and grammer and writing various kinds of texts, in the six years after, we've spent most of the time reading and commenting on all kinds of stories, newspaper texts and so on.

In my opinion knowledge about and respect for the language are among the fundamental things that should be taught at any school, at least for the native language.


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## Xanados (Jan 28, 2012)

Amanita said:


> Someone should tell people to stop complaining about the German educational system, compared to what I'm reading here, it's really good. I've almost always been happy at school. (Relatively, I was glad when the week was over too, of course. )
> We started learning English in year 5 (at around 11 years). At the beginning, we've only done really simple things and we've gone through the grammer issues one at a time. I've done okay but not very well, till I was thirteen and started reading Harry Potter in English. From then on I've always been among the top students in English class without doing any work at all (besides reading fantasy ) Books did it. That's a bit of advice for every potential: Read no matter what, to get familiar with various ways to express yourself via language.
> In year ten we started to read books in class as well, but mostly short, contemporary ones. In our last two school years, we read Death of a Salesman, Lord of the Flies, Macbeath and our exam book, "One language, many voices" (various short stories written by people from the British colonies.)
> 
> ...


It's different when a foreign person is learning English. It's shameful when an English teacher from an English speaking country can't teach ENGLISH. 

*Sigh*


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## Sheilawisz (Jan 28, 2012)

A perfect knowledge of grammar (of any language) and storytelling talent are two different things with no connection between them.


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## Ghost (Jan 29, 2012)

Xanados said:


> I don't have a direct question for you because I can answer it myself. My question would be, "can one be a writer if they haven't been taught the more difficult aspects of grammar?", but I already think one could. I know that there is a plethora of information available online, and I know that the amount to which we understand grammar varies greatly in this community. I was never taught things such as the "subordinate clause", "subjunctive" and "infinitive” when I was younger. Where you?



People can be writers regardless of how thoroughly they were taught grammar. Most of us read, so some of the rules and conventions get absorbed along the way. You can use infinitives in everyday conversations and writing and not know exactly what they are. I have a hell of a time understanding music theory. People can explain quarter notes and time signatures all they like, but it never clicks for me. But music makes sense when I hear it instead of looking at it broken down on paper. I think it's similar with language. Someone might not be able to explain grammar, but they naturally use things like the subjunctive mood and gerund phrases.

My English teachers lectured on "subordinate clauses" and such, but it was all hazy to me. I adore my high school English teacher, really, but my senior year of high school we reviewed capitalization of all things. I learned more in one semester of English Composition at college than I did in four years of high school. I suppose it depends on your teachers/professors. My professor didn't lecture us and move on; he made sure we connected with the concepts.



Xanados said:


> I find myself thinking shameful thoughts that I am a native English speaker and I do not know these rules. I am only 18 years old, but is that really any justification? I think that I have a decent amount of knowledge already, but what I want is to become a scholar in the art, someone who knows the language inside out. Or is that not necessary?



Although it's not necessary to become an English scholar, I think it's important to have pride in your work and learn what you can. Learning more about grammar helps me. Still, I don't think it's everything. Having more advanced tools at your disposal is helpful, but I can easily imagine a cook who doesn't understand how to harmonize flavors using appliances with all the bells-and-whistles to make a worse meal than a cook equipped a few cheap utensils. A better knowledge of grammar doesn't automatically help with pacing, tone, voice, etc. Work on the bits that worry you most, but don't let them hold you back or overwhelm you.


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## gerald.parson (Jan 31, 2012)

> Is it possible to become a writer without having the best English education?



Yes Xanados it is. And you are proof. Not only are you able to convey a clear message or question in all your posts, you also put a short story together on your blog that sucked me in hardcore. So hats off to you sir, you need not worry.


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## Jess A (Feb 1, 2012)

Teach yourself grammar and actively 'notice' grammar and narrative structure in different types of writing when you are reading it.


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## Xanados (Feb 1, 2012)

gerald.parson said:


> Yes Xanados it is. And you are proof. Not only are you able to convey a clear message or question in all your posts, you also put a short story together on your blog that sucked me in hardcore. So hats off to you sir, you need not worry.



Thank you, Gerald. I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate your compliment.

From what I have read so far, it would seem that the majority of us believe that the best English education is not needed. The matter is settled. Thank you.


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