# Maps!



## Philip Overby (Mar 2, 2011)

Anyone else draw maps?  I have this really crude way of drawing them using Microsoft Paint.  Mostly I just draw political maps (country names) and that's it.  I don't really have any intention of using them other for my own reference.  I used to draw lots of maps by hand and always had fun doing that.  

Do you feel by drawing a map it helps you world-build more?  Sometimes I feel it helps me and other times restrains me.  Depends on the story.  

Map lovers (cartophiles?) unite!


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## Donny Bruso (Mar 2, 2011)

I do. I have a 12x18 map of my fantasy world on a bulletin board so that I can stick pins in it for troop movements, etc. It's a great tool. I don't have a computerized version of it, though, since it's too big for my scanner.


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## Mythos (Mar 2, 2011)

I'm really bad at drawing maps, but when I do I use some natural formation as a sort of guideline. Mother Nature is better at shaping land formations than I am. I find maps useful and a good way to organize my worldbuilding thoughts on paper.


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## Behelit (Mar 2, 2011)

Donny Bruso said:


> I don't have a computerized version of it, though, since it's too big for my scanner.



If you're willing to fold up your map, you can scan it in parts and then put the pieces together in an image manipulation program like PS or even a freebie like GIMP. On the other hand, you may not even care whether or not it's on your computer. It's a suggestion, no less.


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## Chilari (Mar 3, 2011)

I occasionally draw maps. They're rough things, generally, for my own use so I know where things are, which direction things are in, etc. I love looking at maps, both those created for fantasy novels and put in the front of the books, and those created in the middle ages, especially the ones based on Polybius' writings. I love seeing how the people who drew them viewed the world and in particular Britain - my favourite is the one where Scotland extends east, all bent over and weird. I like, too, seeing the little drawings they do representing towns. Some of them are very specific to the particular town, with cathedral spires and castles depicted recognisably (though houses are generic). And I also love seeing maps which have the sea going all the way around the outside, cutting huge chunks of Africa and Asia off to fit a medieval Mediterranean world view. I have dozens of scans of real ancient maps saved on my hard drive, including one of Britain where east is up and, while the road networks and towns in the south of England are accurately depicted and named, those in the north and in Scotland are much less so, with fewer roads and towns depicted at all and those which are shown often being too far north, not close enough to another town, not named, etc.

But in terms of maps for stories, yes, I draw them. I also draw plans of buildings which are important so I know what they look like, or make the building in The Sims (it's more fun than drawing) (hey I could totally do the same thing to get a character's look and take screenshots. Why did I not think of this before?)

Maps are cool.


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## Calash (Mar 3, 2011)

For small areas I will hand draw a rough map so I can keep consistency for my story.

Larger scale I tend to go with something like Photoshop.  Drop in the key places, throw on some random noise, and run some filters to make a world map.  I had found a tutorial a few years back that showed how to use filters to create a nice looking random map with elevation. I will have to try and dig it up.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 3, 2011)

Even in stories where travel is featured, I rarely draw maps for the stories. Too much effort with little payoff. If I need to keep track of them, I can just draw a line. "Hometown - Next town - forest - villain's base - river - healer's village - big city - mountains - villain's castle" and it works about as well as a map, with about one hundredth the effort. Sometimes I draw maps for fun, unrelated to my works. A little trick to creating 'realistic' looking maps: take an old (pre-1800) map of a country, an island country works best, and put it in photoshop or whatever. Mess about until you only have the border. Move some of the small islands around, or delete them entirely. Flip or mirror the map if you like. And then 'bam!' instant map. The old maps are always hilariously wrong, oftentimes too wide to be seen as we see them, and a few changes make it utterly unrecognizable. 

Mind, I've never once referenced a map whilst reading _Lord of the Rings_ or anything of that sort. I'd find a street map of a city to be more useful than those broad sorts of maps, unless the characters are doing a LOT of backtracking, which is almost never the case.


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## Donny Bruso (Mar 3, 2011)

I'm kind of opposed to folding my map just for a digitized version of it that I don't really need. Like I said, It's mostly for plotting the military campaigns in my project, keeping track of where armies are and whatnot in a very visual fashion. Writing a note that Army A is 500 miles from Army B is all well and good, but I work better with visuals. Too many sand table exercises in the army, I guess.

I'm completely on the same page with Chilari though. When reading through stories that have a map in the front, I'm constantly flipping back and forth. I used to have one of the maps from the library's copy of LOTR, (Yes, I ripped it out. I know, smack my fingers with a ruler and let's move on,) hanging on the wall in my room when I was a teenager. I had the whole path of the story traced on the map, and could just kind of sit there and stare at it for a long time, soaking in all the little details. Yes, I know, I'm a geek. Cest la vie.


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## Ravana (Mar 4, 2011)

I always draw my own, and almost always draw one–or several. I've gotten fairly good at upscaling notebook-size roughs to highly-detailed, full-color, poster-sized wall-hangers (and I have no idea what's going to happen if I'm ever called upon to provide one to a publisher… probably have to down-scale it in black and white  ). On the other hand, maps have always been a hobby of mine–atlases make up one of the larger categories of my widely-varied book collection, and there's a whole file of paper maps from _National Geographic_ and elsewhere–so it's not particularly surprising that I want maps for my worlds.

I never use computer programs; none of them are easy and flexible enough that I can make, alter, rearrange and erase details as I decide needs to be done. And I never use a generator, because I refuse to have the action of my story dictated by something I had little or no control in developing. I do plan to get a decent CAD program some day, as I'm not very good at doing 3D perspective drawings (not to put too fine a point on it: I suck at this) and I want to be able to create visuals of my locales–so that I can correct their descriptions, when I find out what I said doesn't correspond with my vision of how it should actually look–but I imagine my terrain maps are always going to be done by hand. I use pencil (as you could probably guess from the foregoing), including colored pencil once I'm ready to move from outline to terrain types.


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## Telcontar (Mar 8, 2011)

Love maps. Drawing them and looking at them - I enjoy it when a book has a couple maps in the front. I draw maps for my own writing as well, though they are rather poor and if I were ever to publish anything I suppose I'd find a better artist to redraft my own work.


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## Mdnight Falling (Mar 9, 2011)

I don't draw them but I need two really good detailed ones LMMFAO!!!!


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## Mdnight Rising (Mar 9, 2011)

I have always drawn ym own maps for both my writing projects as well as my gaming projects.. i wouldnt have it any other way. It helps show where characters are going and where they have been without all the confusion of  trying to figure out where is where


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## Mdnight Rising (Mar 9, 2011)

I told ya i would draw them if ya gave me some details hon


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## Mdnight Falling (Mar 9, 2011)

good good you will draw them!!!!! o.o two of them not one two -prances- I'll give yew details when you tell me you're bored enough to do them LOL


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## Mdnight Rising (Mar 9, 2011)

lol  alright  that is fair enough


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## Mdnight Rising (Mar 9, 2011)

question is do you want them hand drawn on paper or to attempt it on the computer....hehe


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## At Dusk I Reign (Mar 14, 2011)

I used to draw maps when I was a child; not related to anything I'd written, I just went through a phase where I enjoyed putting the imaginary places in my head down on paper. These days I don't bother with them, and I certainly never look at them if they're included in a book I'm reading. I tend to find that if I _do_ need to check them out it's because of failures in the prose.

(Not that I'm suggesting any author who uses them is a bad writer - merely that if the storytelling is strong enough maps are a luxury, not a necessity.)


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## Ophiucha (Mar 14, 2011)

Yes, I don't have a problem with you drawing maps, I merely wonder if they are as necessary as some tend to claim. I guess it is just because I never reference them. They are very pretty - I have the special collector's edition of _The Lord of the Rings_ which comes with a beautiful version of the map - and I'm not going to say it isn't any fun to draw them, but I would be annoyed if I had to reference them to read the book. Just as I am annoyed if I have to reference anything while trying to read a book, such as a conlang index in the back of the book.

I don't know, I just... trust the author, I suppose. If he tells me they've walked east from Tortira to Fallan, and it took two days by horse, I trust that. I don't need to know where on a map the two are. I get the idea. Even mountains and whatnot. Okay, and there are mountains there. If an author just says (in prettier words and spread out thoroughly), we're heading from Tortira to Fallan, from Fallan to Rorshan (passing through a forest), and from Rorshan through the mountain pass to the palace of the Acada... what is the map for but a picture to break up the text? They are traveling in a line. A no doubt wobbly one, but still. Few to no stories (at least not single stories; series might at some point) have any back tracking elaborated upon in detail, so I just don't see the point.

Unless the problem is... not remembering town names, I guess? But still, that seems like a problem of the reader more than the author.


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## Donny Bruso (Mar 14, 2011)

I use the maps I draw as tools during my writing. It helps me keep everything straight and cuts down on foolish continuity errors where I sent someone west instead of east. Since its been drawn anyway, I'd probably throw it in the book just because. The work has been done already, so why not throw it in? And because I like maps...


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## myrddin173 (Mar 15, 2011)

I have a map for my fantasy series that has major changes every time a draw it.  It just has the political boundaries and outlines of where the forests and mountains are (can't draw either of them).
I always love when there's a map in a book, actually they don't even have to be in a book, I'm just a total cartophile.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 16, 2011)

I do like a nice pretty map. I have six or seven books of really old maps. Mostly from Northern Europe, since that is the area that interests me the most.


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## Mdnight Falling (Mar 17, 2011)

I like the maps cause I like to really get into a story.. I'm the one that wants to see where everything is. Where they main party goes on their travels, roughly how far it would be, what kind of terrain they passed through. Even if the book tells me all this... I still like referencing the map LOL


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## Ophiucha (Mar 17, 2011)

I've just yet to read a book where the travels were so complex that I couldn't follow it without a picture. Maybe I've just yet to read a story with much zigzagging. Still like drawing them, though, even if they never relate to my stories. Indeed, I tend to prefer to draw real countries instead of fakes ones. I'm stuck drawing one up for my tumblr, though. Did a poll, and my most requested post would be for a "When To Use A Map, and How To Use It If You Do" in the words of one follower. Doing a hand drawn one and a computer one of the same place, and am being lazy and just using my own world since it's already planned out.  Anyway, I don't feel like going any further with this one, since I don't have to, so I might as well show y'all how dreadful I am in photoshop.


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## Mdnight Falling (Mar 18, 2011)

Oh I can always follow the story.. I just like the maps LOL I dunno I'm weird I guess I like looking at them when the party gets to a new place  it helps me picture it even better


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## Ophiucha (Mar 19, 2011)

Trying to think of maps I liked, and I just remembered a map of Europe from Scott Westerfeld's "Leviathan". http://www.digipendence.com/images/leviathan_map.jpg


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## JGSTYLE (Mar 21, 2011)

I love maps. At some point in every book I read I might flip back to the front and check the map.

Guy Gavriel Kay's *Sailing to Sarantium*: _"Hey, there's (the country of) Esperaňa! Whoa, that's far away..."_

George R.R. Martin's *Song of Ice and Fire*: _"Hmmm. Looks to me like Valyria is *STILL THERE* on the map."_

Strangely enough, as I recall, Guy Gavriel Kay's *The Last Light of the Sun* did _not_ have a map. It mildly annoyed me and other fans because the story itself did not do a great job on describing where exactly the action was taking place. It was the same world as *Sailing to Sarantium*, but where..? A rare miss for GGK.

I also love drawing maps. I'll always initially draw it out on paper until I get it nailed down, then scan that in and add demarcation and type. Depending on how big it needs to be I might vectorize it in Adobe Illustrator.

It's a lot of fun for me and really helps me work out the story.


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## Amorus (Apr 5, 2011)

I enjoy having maps. I also enjoy looking at how the landscape has changed over the years in my story. It also helps me world build and serves as inspiration when needed. I guess I'm visual in that sense.


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## Digital_Fey (Apr 6, 2011)

I respect those who can draw detailed, attractive maps, but it's something I gave up on ages ago. As a reader, I don't usually refer to maps in detail. I feel like the author should be able to explain things carefully and succinctly enough for me to visualize the characters' journey without having to flip back and forth from map to story every five minutes. On the other hand, I think maps can be useful to give an overview of the story's setting, and if you're planning complex military maneuvers then they're obviously essential. 



			
				Donny Bruso said:
			
		

> I used to have one of the maps from the library's copy of LOTR, (Yes, I ripped it out. I know, smack my fingers with a ruler and let's move on,)



You have no idea how often I've wanted to do that. I, however, have restrained myself, just in case it was the Nazgul who would turn up to do the ruler smacking


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## Ophiucha (Apr 6, 2011)

Yeah, my motto on whether or not to include a map is basically "do they travel back and forth a lot?" and "are we following more than one group of people?" Otherwise, I think we can all accept "they traveled five days east, through the mountains of Midgard" and be able to visualize that. It takes up maybe five extra words than what you'd have said with a reference at hand, but keeps us from having to stop the book to look at a picture. Of course, if you need a map to write the story in the first place, go forth. I like having the reference. I just wouldn't bother putting it in my book.


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## Fnord (Apr 15, 2011)

As a tabletop RPG vet, I've sometimes put more time into drawing maps than actually fleshing out the world that I'm drawing.


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## Zahantian (Apr 19, 2011)

I can't help but love a good map. While I'm not so much into the over-detailed map that shows each individual footprint of the character's journey (I'd like to think I'm clever enough to work out where the character without the author needing to hold my hand) but I think a nicely laid-out map can really enhance a book. 

I also think maps are an invaluable tool for the writer, it was the very first thing I did when I started thinking about my current story. It can be a great way to generate ideas and it certainly worked for me, but I also know people who have started planning and then conjured a map to match it. Helpful world-building devices and very fun to draw. All-in-all maps get a thumbs up from me.


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## The Realm Wanderer (Apr 20, 2011)

I'm currently writing a novel called 'The Realm Wanderer', hence my user name and created a quick map for the world in which it takes place (Esilas) with PhotoShop. It was never meant to be seen by anyone else, just a reference for myself whilst writing, but if I ever find out how to show images on here, I'd be happy to share it.


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## AvengerofOsiris (May 15, 2011)

Hi, everyone.  I'm new here, but I wanted to comment on this topic.  I personally think maps are pretty essential in a fantasy story.  I'm actually into Fantasy and Sci-Fi, and if you want to keep a story consistent, a map helps a lot.  Consider Star Trek (I realize its sci-fi, but bear with me).  In one episode the Klingon Homeworld is 3 days at warp 3 or something from Earth, in another story its a week at a faster warp speed.  In another story, the nearest friendly ship to the enterprise is 2 weeks away even though they are still in Federation space (what a planet inside the Federation is 2 WEEKS at max warp, but the heart of the Klingon Empire is 3 DAYS???  Then in Enterprise (the "new" show, which is set in the past), the Klingon Homeworld is even CLOSER.  And they've contacted Klingons before races that would end up INSIDE THE FEDERATION.  Now, Star Trek is obviously enormously popular despite these contradictions, but it bothers some people who are really annal like myself.  If they had some rough "map" of the space these empires are in this could be avoided, even with multiple writers.


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## Ophiucha (May 15, 2011)

I think Star Trek is exactly the sort of series that would simply be hindered by a map, for the reasons just stated. It doesn't care about internal consistency; it's a long, long running series and it has to change things in order to make each episode its best. For each individual episode, there is internal consistency. Maybe someone working on the Star Trek movie made a map to make sure they were consistent within that. But the show went on for how long? Several different series, each with several seasons. It isn't a show that wants to be 'hard' realistic, it is a show where each episode does what it wants to do. And if that means that, for the sake of the narrative, it is going to take a week to reach the Klingon home world instead of three days, so that there can be some sort of character arc or another external conflict, then so be it. Four more days, better story, sounds good.

And, let's be honest, even if it doesn't benefit the story of that episode, it just isn't the sort of show that cares. It isn't hard science fiction, it isn't trying to be a consistent world. They are tossing in new planets every few episodes that they clearly didn't know about when they started the show. The show lasted for ages, and they couldn't keep everything the same. I can't think of ANY TV series that lasts more than three seasons that does this, SFF or otherwise. Even ones with a full story arc, one that was clearly plotted out ahead of time, there are still a few oddities if you go rewatch the series after knowing how it ends.

Regardless, even if the people who made Star Trek decided to make a map for their own sake, they don't have to let us see it.


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## AvengerofOsiris (May 15, 2011)

I agree with all your points, but I was only using Star Trek as an example because I don't know of any Fantasy examples where there have been such blatant contradictions in distances and locations.  That could possibly be because I haven't read that many fantasy series, or because I haven't noticed the contradictions, or possibly becauseMOST of the series I've read do have maps, and most of them have been quite detailed at that, although I admit I've only read the most popular fantasy series (LoTR, Song of Fire Ice, the first book by Paolini (didn't like it enough to continue), Harry Potter, and some D+D inspired novels, etc.), being more of a sci-fi oriented fan myself.


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## Ophiucha (May 15, 2011)

For the sake of an example, I guess there is Discworld, which only got maps after several books had been written. Indeed, Pratchett (the author) had said that he didn't want a map for a long time because he didn't really envision the world as a whole, he built it as he wrote. Not to mention the fact that he had no real problem retconning things. Eventually, an artist (somewhat obsessively, perhaps) mapped out the world based on everything he said, leaving some room for error, and that sort of became the 'official' map, which Pratchett is fond of. Terry Goodkind, similarly, had not wanted a map and didn't have one when he wrote the book; his publisher made him draw one up. Piers Anthony just uses a map of Florida.

A few popular authors I know of who don't have maps in most or any of their works are Scott Lynch (not in his books, anyway), Mervyn Peake, and M. John Harrison. And there are several authors who - like Goodkind - really only seem to have gotten maps because their publishers pressured them into doing it. It is expected, but as with many things, I am hesitant to include or do something merely because it is commonplace.


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## Hans (May 27, 2011)

I started my main world without a map. But after I created one I found it a very useful tool. The map itself was simply created with The Gimp. This Gimp file has accumulated many layers over time. Some political layers, a layer for language families, a climate layer, some layers for the habitat of different creatures and so on.

For fun I once sliced my map for the Marble program, but had not the time to go very deep in it. I stopped after writing the geographical positions of the most important cities into my dataset.


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## Chilari (May 27, 2011)

Hmm, using computer programs like Gimp to in layers with different meanings sounds like a great idea. I'd never thought of that before, but in my mind I have a rough idea of which religions are where, which languages are where, how large the region occupied by city states is and what types of settlements and nations exist outside it, and whatnot; visualising it would be useful.

Not that I've got a complete drawn map of anything anyway; I know roughly what direction one city is from another, which way the river flows, and the distances from the main city, Tretham, to other locations (based on real-world distances; thus Hurreton is 654 miles form Tretham, the same distance, according to Google, as between the Palatine hill in Rome and the Acropolis in Athens - I figured I'm already drawing the parallels, so why not add that one in for sharp-eyed readers. Another location is 55 miles from Tretham, which is equal to the distance between where I live now and where I grew up, which is also where my parents continue to live).


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## Woodroam (May 29, 2011)

My maps are just rough sketches. Maybe someday I'll commision an artist to make something more professional.


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