# Aes Sedai vs Jedi



## Ankari (May 4, 2012)

I was talking to Sheilawisz this morning.  We were talking about WIPs and such which lead to her referencing me her fanfic site.  You an find the story I read here

So after reading her fanfic we entered into a discussion about who would really win in a duel:  Aes Sedai or Jedi.  Before you answer, this specifically revolved around Balefire vs Light Saber, so assume the Aes Sedai has Balefire.


----------



## Steerpike (May 4, 2012)

If you're going with balefire, then I think you have to go with a powerful force-user as well. Even with balefire, you still have to hit the opponent. Shielding, mind-control, fast movements, telekinetic powers. I say the Aes Sedai dies. 

Balefire v. lightsaber isn't a good pairing, because you're taking one of the most powerful powers an Aes Sedai might be able to access and control, and comparing it to a tool a Jedi gets as a padawan.


----------



## Benjamin Clayborne (May 4, 2012)

I actually contemplated this about ten years ago. I also threw metapsychics into the mix (from Julian May's _Galactic Milieu_ series).

But for just Aes Sedai vs. Jedi... in general, the way Aes Sedai powers are described being used, they can seize and wield _saidar_ (or, if we're including all channelers, _saidin_) in a fraction of a second, and unleash unbelievable amounts of firepower. Jedi are shown using the Force pretty slowly by comparison.

But the Jedi have an ace card the Aes Sedai don't, which is their ability to see accurately a short distance into the future. So a Jedi can act even before an Aes Sedai can do anything at all.

One problem with this discussion is that Aes Sedai can block one anothers' weaves, and Jedi can interfere with one anothers' use of the Force. If we assume that Jedi and Aes Sedai can't interfere with each others' power, then Aes Sedai would win despite Jedi precognition, because they can use and wield their power far faster than any Jedi; even if the Jedi saw it coming, he couldn't do anything about it.

But if we allow Jedi and Aes Sedai to interfere with each others' magic, then Jedi would win, because they would always be able to predict what the Aes Sedai was going to do, block it before they had a chance, and then use the Force to make the Aes Sedai's heart explode. Or just cut them down with their lightsaber, which will presumably trump any physical weapon Aes Sedai might have. You might propose that the Aes Sedai could use a _ter'angreal_ weapon of some kind, except the Jedi could still see that coming and yank it out of their hand with the Force before the Aes Sedai could use it.


----------



## Steerpike (May 4, 2012)

I'm not convinced that force powers can't be accessed immediately (at least some of them). And when you throw in a lot of slowing and mind-altering powers, it is questionable as to whether an Aes Sedai would ever be able to unleash her magic, particularly if the force user can act with precognition.

If you start bringing in the uber powers like force storm, I think the Aes Sedai has an even bigger problem.


----------



## Sheilawisz (May 4, 2012)

I wrote that fanfiction back in 2005, and it has been just a few months ago that I found it again, edited it a little (the original version featured harsher language) and uploaded it to Fanfiction.net just for kicks!! So far it has received only one review, and that person told me that I should get away from heavy drugs which made me laugh a lot =)

To be honest, I have watched all the Star Wars movies and animated series but I am not a true SW fan, while I have not read any Wheel of Time book and so my knowledge about that series is limited. All those years ago I had a friend that was a great WoT fan and she would tell me many things about it, so I researched and figured out that the Aes Sedai and the Jedi Knights were quite alike and a fight could be interesting.

My point to support the Jedi just because I know SW better and I kind of like it: I know that only a few Channelers are capable of being really powerful like causing mass destruction and that, while most of them can be endangered if they fight a large number of those Trolloc creatures or other monsters from the WoT world...

Trollocs would be no match for a few Jedi!! All Jedi have a lightsaber while only a few Channelers can weave Balefire, and the Force is capable of dealing pretty well against standard fire and lightning attacks.

Now, Lightsaber vs Balefire: Both weapons are supposed to be unstoppable in their respective universes. There are few things that can resist a Lightsaber blade for some time, it's said that they cut through anything just like Balefire is said to destroy anything except that indestructible metal or whatever that exists in the WoT world- So, we have two unstoppable forces colliding, and my way to think about this is that both unstoppable forces would simply repel each other.

It's a clash of the Laws of two universes, there is no reason to believe that any of them can win!!

The Jedi can be super fast (like they are in the Clone Wars animated series) also, I think that they could outnumber the Aes Sedai and win a battle that way.


----------



## Steerpike (May 4, 2012)

Sheilawisz: I think you have to get into the non-movie books in the Star Wars universe to see examples of the really powerful force powers. There is some devastating, world/universe-altering power going on (though balefire can be put into that category as well). 

Even setting aside outnumbering...let's suppose it is one-on-one, with a powerful Aes Sedai versus a powerful force user, I'll go with the force user. Of course, comparing two fictional works like this you're always making an apples v. oranges comparison at some level, but it is still fun.


----------



## Sheilawisz (May 4, 2012)

Yeah, maybe it would be great to read the Star Wars books, thanks Steerpike!!

When comparing two Fantasy universes like this, always funny things will happen!! The absolute laws of each universe start to collide and there is really no way to reach a final conclusion- After all, only we Fantasy fans and writers can discuss about such crazy things and really like to talk about it =)

I view the Balefire power of unraveling reality as something related totally to the way that the WoT universe is composed by the pattern and the threads thing. In my fanfic I said that the paradox effect would not work in Middle-Earth, simply because they are in a different universe and there is no pattern-reality to be unraveled.

Would Fiendfyre destroy Sauron's One Ring, just like it destroys Horcruxes?? Would Gandalf stop a Dementor? Would a Lightsaber cut through Superman? The same happens here =)


----------



## Saigonnus (May 4, 2012)

I would think it would seriously depend on the situation. If the Aes Sedai got the drop on the Jedi (not easy by the way) and got them with balefire, the Jedi wouldn't stand a chance since there really isn't any defense against it once it hits you. In a straight up duel where they are facing off I think the Jedi would win because they could deflect the bale fire, just like Vader did with Han Solo's shots from his blaster just before he was frozen in carbonite. Also, you have to consider the other abilities an Aes Sedai has, even without balefire, they are very formidable. You don't really hear about Jedi with the power to call lightning out of a clear blue sky, turn invisible or shoot fireballs and make the ground erupt with geysers of flame beneath a person's feet. 

I think they both have strengths and weaknesses but I would have to go with the Aes Sedai, since their abilities tend to be a wider range of things they can do.


----------



## Steerpike (May 4, 2012)

Saigonnus said:


> You don't really hear about Jedi with the power to call lightning out of a clear blue sky...



Force lightning?


----------



## Sheilawisz (May 4, 2012)

I researched the Force Storm thing and it sounds nasty, it could definitely give the Edge to the Force against the One Power!!

Taking a Jedi by surprise could work even with normal fireballs or lightning attacks, but the same could be said about the Jedi taking the Aes Sedai by surprise with a lightsaber attack or using the Force to crush her body. The Jedi could defend themselves from fireballs with Force shields easily, and anyway taking them by surprise is near to impossible because they can sense their surroundings or so it seems to me from the Clone Wars animated series =)

Force Lightning seems to be very fast and deadly according to my research, and it can attack many targets at once!!


----------



## Saigonnus (May 4, 2012)

Truth be told, I haven't read that many books about the Star War universe (just the series by Timothy Zahn) and Force Storm or Force Lightning is never mentioned, so excuse my ignorance on that fact. I have seen video games and the like with the force storm, but I don't know as I haven't played them. 

I think for the sake of the argument, surprise attacks should be off the table. I imagine they both walk into a large chamber at the same time at opposite ends and see each other at the exact same instant. I still think with the shields and protective factors, the Aes Sedai would have the upperhand in the engagement. I seem to remember Rand Al'Thor's Dragons making a large shield at the Battle of Dumai's Wells that was pretty much impervious to the lighting and fireballs that the rival channelers were throwing. The same could probably have the power to deflect the same from a Jedi.


----------



## Sheilawisz (May 5, 2012)

The Jedi also have a power to slow down their enemies both psychologically and physically, cause intense fear, create illusions and other things... it seems that I under-powered them in my fanfiction, but I had no idea about the other powers they have because I have never read the Star Wars books and researched just a little =)

I imagine that this duel would take place in forests or fields- It would be a hell of a battle, difficult for both sides, but I am still cheering for the Jedi and the Force!!


----------



## Benjamin Clayborne (May 5, 2012)

The Jedi do have some pretty amazing powers, but the thing is that most of them are (as depicted in various Star Wars media) very _slow_ compared to what Aes Sedai can do. Sure, Palpatine (or maybe it was his clone, in _Dark Empire_) could summon a humongous Force storm, but it took, like, minutes to ramp up.

Conversely, Aes Sedai can weave a flow of air and slice your head off in like a quarter of a second.


----------



## Steerpike (May 5, 2012)

If he does get the Force Storm off, the Aes Sedai shields won't enter into it, though. They'll all be whisked away. People are forgetting a crucial point here, with all the talk of Aes Sedia being so fast. Once the Aes Sedai encounter the Jedi and/or Sith, they have to adjust their shawls and smooth their dresses. Then they have to wonder what the White Tower would think or do and argue about whether it matters. Some of them may have to tug on portions of their hair. If there are any males around, they have to cast certain glances at them, then spend more time debating on whether the men are of any use (or any threat), and what intrigues should or should not be shared with them. While this is going on, the Jedi slap a'dam on all the Aes Sedai and roast them over a fire later that night.

How about the most powerful magic-wielders from the Malazan books versus the Aes Sedai. I have to go with the Malazan.


----------



## Ankari (May 6, 2012)

> How about the most powerful magic-wielders from the Malazan books versus the Aes Sedai. I have to go with the Malazan.



Hey now, that's a deliberate attempt at hijacking the thread!  And successful too!

The magic users in the Malazan series were powerful but lacked definition.  The most power of the magics from the Malazan series were rituals that could consumed days if not weeks.  In a dual the Malazan mages seem to rely on power blasts while the Aes Sedai had so many tools up their sleeves it wouldn't be fair.

Which brings me back to the Jedi vs Aes Sedai.  I am not well versed with the Jedi lore, but are you considering all the tools Aes Sedai can employ?

1) Teleportation portals that cut through anything.
2) Lightening
3) Air that can hold you in place
4) The ability to shield someone from their source of power.
5) The thing that Rand Summoned in the book _The Dragon Reborn_ that killed all the trollocs but didn't touch a human.
6) Geysers of exploding earth
7) Dream walking
8) Healing
9) The thing that Rand used against Samuel that resembled pink lines that spread out and burned through your flesh on contact.
9) Gale force winds
10) Walls of fire
11) Balefire
12) Compulsion

Do I need to go on?  You're telling me the Jedi can match that?


----------



## Mindfire (May 6, 2012)

Ankari said:


> Hey now, that's a deliberate attempt at hijacking the thread!  And successful too!
> 
> The magic users in the Malazan series were powerful but lacked definition.  The most power of the magics from the Malazan series were rituals that could consumed days if not weeks.  In a dual the Malazan mages seem to rely on power blasts while the Aes Sedai had so many tools up their sleeves it wouldn't be fair.
> 
> ...



Yes. Absolutely. Because Master Mace Windu can singlehandedly take on an entire droid army AND a weapon of mass destruction. With or without his lightsaber.


----------



## Mindfire (May 6, 2012)

Also, Jedi can sense and react to invisible opponents:


----------



## Ankari (May 6, 2012)

> I rest my case.



No sir!  I think his powers are not considered within normal SW canon.  I though Darth Vader was one of the strongest in the Force, yet he could never do what Mace did.

Also Rand would have finished that battle with two weaves: A think link of intense heat that would have cut down those droids and Balefire on that ship.  Battle over, stormtroopers don't even get dirty.


----------



## Mindfire (May 6, 2012)

Ankari said:


> No sir!  I think his powers are not considered within normal SW canon.  I though Darth Vader was one of the strongest in the Force, yet he could never do what Mace did.
> 
> Also Rand would have finished that battle with two weaves: A think link of intense heat that would have cut down those droids and Balefire on that ship.  Battle over, stormtroopers don't even get dirty.



Somehow I doubt Rand is that overpowered. And if he is... no wonder people say Wheel of Time is bad.


----------



## gavintonks (May 6, 2012)

presuming a jedi with a word can move quicker than bale fire an step out of its path which is doubtful, then balefire wins and we will not have 276 animated versions of a star wars episode as it would be cleaned from the path, are we allowed beta testing with jajaj binks?


----------



## Steerpike (May 6, 2012)

Ankari said:


> Hey now, that's a deliberate attempt at hijacking the thread!  And successful too!
> 
> The magic users in the Malazan series were powerful but lacked definition.  The most power of the magics from the Malazan series were rituals that could consumed days if not weeks.  In a dual the Malazan mages seem to rely on power blasts while the Aes Sedai had so many tools up their sleeves it wouldn't be fair.
> 
> ...



Yes I think the strongest force users can meet and exceed all of that (and I wouldn't put Vader in the top five). The Sith Emperor could drain energy from an entire planet, sucking life force from a huge area. Some could tear planets apart using the force. Force Storm can create a worm hole the devastates a planet and sucks entire armies into the void. I've never seen aes sedai powers described in a way that would rival the most powerful force users in Star Wars canon.


----------



## Ankari (May 6, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Yes I think the strongest force users can meet and exceed all of that (and I wouldn't put Vader in the top five). The Sith Emperor could drain energy from an entire planet, sucking life force from a huge area. Some could tear planets apart using the force. Force Storm can create a worm hole the devastates a planet and sucks entire armies into the void. I've never seen aes sedai powers described in a way that would rival the most powerful force users in Star Wars canon.



A few planets?  Wormholes?  How about unraveling _Reality?_  Rand can do that and was even warned against doing it.  He was told the use of Balefire burnt the threads from the Pattern.  Too many threads burnt would unravel the Pattern, ending existence!  

Rand: 1  Jedi: 0


----------



## Steerpike (May 6, 2012)

Ankari, that's basically what the Force Storm does when it creates the worm hole effect. Rand would never get close enough to a force user capable of ravaging an entire planet with force storm or something like that. If Rand had power like that, the WoT books would have been over a long time ago.


----------



## Mindfire (May 6, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Ankari, that's basically what the Force Storm does when it creates the worm hole effect. Rand would never get close enough to a force user capable of ravaging an entire planet with force storm or something like that. If Rand had power like that, the WoT books would have been over a long time ago.


And as we all know... *they're not.* lol You get it? Because the WoT books seem to never end? See what I did there? ...I'll go back to my corner now.


----------



## Sheilawisz (May 6, 2012)

The Jedi mental powers would counter Compulsion and dream walking, the Force would destroy those air attacks and the Jedi also have a power to "shield" or cut off other Force users from the Force, which could work to cut off the Aes Sedai from channeling the One Power and leave them powerless =)

Here is a seemingly complete list of Force-related powers: What the Force can do.

Many of these powers cannot be seen in the Star Wars movies, but they appear in the Clone Wars series, the books and other things and all of that is official canon!! Their great speed to run and use the Force in great waves would be very useful in the battle...

Again, that unraveling reality stuff is based completely on the way that the WoT universe depends on the pattern and the threads that can be burned- That concept is unique and valid only in the WoT universe, so it would not work at all in any other universe because the pattern exists only in Wot.

Trying to take that _unraveling the pattern_ stuff and make it valid in other universes, is just like saying that Rand could be defeated by taking away all the Midi-chlorians from his blood: He has no Midi-chlorians because that's Star Wars stuff, right? Well, then Lightsabers and other SW things are not part of the pattern...

If an Aes Sedai can cut off your head with air, a Jedi can make your head explode =)


----------



## Sheilawisz (May 15, 2012)

So, has anybody laughed while reading that little crazy fanfic of mine? Anyone? Even a little laugh...??

I'll start a new Poll about a different fanfictional battle, wait for it- It seems that the Jedi Knights won this one without much trouble, but in my Poll they will have to fight very different enemies and it shall not be so easy for them =)


----------

