# Gender roles in Wheel of Time



## Zero Angel

This came up in another forum. Here's my OP. Discuss:


> Jordan basically presents males and females as being absurdly proud of their sex and unwilling to accept that the opposite sex has any positive qualities whatsoever. This devolves to the point that the characters that LIKE and trust each other are unwilling to reveal what they know to each other and causes further issues for them.
> 
> I think it is a very backwards view of gender relationships, but maybe that is how it is for most people? Do all men assume that women know nothing and are ruled by their hormones and that a guy would know better in any situation? and do all women assume that men know nothing and are ruled by their anatomy and that a girl would know better in any situation?
> 
> Any male/female relationship in that book series almost always has internal dialogue where the POV character talks about how inept the opposite gender character is and how they can't confide in them because of their gender, when the thing that they should be confiding in them is the missing piece of the puzzle that the opposite gender character needed or if they would just bloody talk to each other without trying to take dominance they could see what they needed to do and how to beat the bloody bad guys.
> 
> In one to five chapters, the POV is reversed and we get treated to how the opposite gender character thinks all the characters that are opposite gender to them are inept and they can't tell them their missing piece of the puzzle.
> 
> It is B-E-Y-O-N-D frustrating for me while reading that series and the only thing I dislike about it.



Steerpike went on to say: 



Steerpike said:


> It's not a matter of humor or something like that. Jordan isn't writing a comedy. These are serious, world-changing issues and the characters in the book act quite seriously with respect toward them. Then you get people who have known each other all their lives withholding essential information from one another because of some gender consideration and the conspiracies that goes with them, and at some point it stretches credulity to the breaking point. It is one thing to poke fun at gender or even have ongoing tensions that revolve around gender, but when they characters get to the point that their actions are outright stupid and inexplicable (like not having a thirty second discussion with someone you've known your entire life in order to bring resolution to a problem), then it is so contrived as to be ridiculous. That's my problem with it.



And then Ankari chimed in with:



Ankari said:


> Yeah, it's the way power is distributed unevenly.  Aes Sedai, Wisdom, Aiel wise ones and whatever the people that call the winds for the seafaring folk (Windcallers?).  You don't have a lot of power falling in the hands of men, do you?  It's unsettling to find all the power concentrated in one group with the other group having _no chance_ of obtaining that power.
> 
> Until Rand came.



And then Phil the Drill asked the logical question to prevent further derailment:



Phil the Drill said:


> Could we start a new thread to discuss Wheel of Time gender roles?
> 
> Pertaining to what people have said about these rules, I think "rules" are good to follow if they help your writing.  Take a rule from one guy and take another from another one.  If it helps your writing to have the rule "Always write upside down on Tuesday," then do that.




It should also be noted that my OP was in response to Mindfire saying how keeping people from knowing something that characters know was stupid...

Sums up everything so far? And go:


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## Ankari

Here's the deal.  Readers have a hard time wrapping their heads around such an absurd notion that the opposite sex is completely untrustworthy.  We, as readers, evaluate such a concept from our person experiences.  Who in their right mind totally disregards the opposite sex simply because they are _the opposite sex_?  There are a few, but I'm talking to the people that are not living on the fringe of society and moral norms.  

After giving it some thought, I can understand how Jordan wrote this into his world.  For 3,000 years you have an understanding that one gender, males, brought about the *Breaking of the World.*  You're warned by your mother that if you're bad, the Dragon will come and take you away in the middle of the night (second POV there, Steerpike!).  Men claiming to be False Dragons go nuts and must be put down like wild animals or else their immediate surrounds will fall under the devastating power of their tainted connection with the One Power.  Aes Sedai, while not completely trusted, are the ones who corral and put down these wild animals.

Oddly, Jordan, who is known for describing a blade of grass to death, doesn't fully explain male-female relationship.  He _shows it._  He wants the reader to pick up on this.  But, as stated above, we have a preconceived notion of what male-female relationship should be like.  We can't wrap our heads around this foreign concept.

When Rand becomes the Dragon Reborn (btw, I think half of the success for this series can be attributed to that awesome title)  he *shatters 3,000 years of ingrained fear.*  Think of it like the movie _Contagion._  Your friends and family, those who you never would betray and would die for, are suddenly anathema to you.  You can't be around them and don't fully trust them.  Sickness calls to a deeper fear, a dread of wasting away while knowing your ultimate fate.

With the coming of Rand, males become _that plague._  Suddenly your husband and brother are no longer fully trustworthy.  What if they can channel and go crazy with your family around you?

The Aes Sedai-Rand relationship drives me absolutely bonkers.  But I understand it.  Rand seeks to challenge their way of doing things, the covenant they carried for so long, simply because a few words were spoken about his significance.


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## Zero Angel

See Ankari, I have no problem with the way people treat men channelers and the relationships between Aes Sedai and Rand etc because I found it believable.

But they (and by they, I mean all females) treat Mat and Perrin the same as Rand, and Mat and Perrin treat all women the same way as they themselves are treated.


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## Steerpike

Yeah, I was going to say the same thing Zero Angel said. It's not just Aes Sedai and everyone having an attitude toward men that can channel. It is all of the female characters in relation to all male characters, Matt and Perrin included. Even Perrin's wife gets in on it. You get in a situation where all of these people who have known each other for their entire lives and are all on the same side of this epic battle that's coming withholding vital information from one another in situations where any halfway reasonable person would divulge it. And the men do the same thing in reverse to the women. It passed the point of abject stupidity for me a long time ago, and had Sanderson not picked up the series I doubt I'd ever finish it, but since he did I'm going to give it a shot.


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## Ankari

Zero Angel said:


> See Ankari, I have no problem with the way people treat men channelers and the relationships between Aes Sedai and Rand etc because I found it believable.
> 
> But they (and by they, I mean all females) treat Mat and Perrin the same as Rand, and Mat and Perrin treat all women the same way as they themselves are treated.



After a while it's hard to find the motivation to care about the difference.

You don't have to look very far to find a real world example.  The Sikh bombing that killed 6 (I think) recently.  They were killed because people couldn't distinguish between a Sikh and a Muslim.  Now, ask people to distinguish between a Muslim and a terrorist.  And this after only 11 years.  Imagine 3,000


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## Steerpike

Ankari said:


> After a while it's hard to find the motivation to care about the difference.



Doesn't make sense. These people have known each other their entire lives. Further, there is nothing to suggest that in the entire world every man and every woman are at odds in this manner; it is just the important characters. I sometimes wonder if it wasn't merely a cheap way to avoid resolving issues so that he could keep the series going longer and longer.


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## Zero Angel

Steerpike said:


> Yeah, I was going to say the same thing Zero Angel said. It's not just Aes Sedai and everyone having an attitude toward men that can channel. It is all of the female characters in relation to all male characters, Matt and Perrin included. Even Perrin's wife gets in on it. You get in a situation where all of these people who have known each other for their entire lives and are all on the same side of this epic battle that's coming withholding vital information from one another in situations where any halfway reasonable person would divulge it. And the men do the same thing in reverse to the women. It passed the point of abject stupidity for me a long time ago, and had Sanderson not picked up the series I doubt I'd ever finish it, but since he did I'm going to give it a shot.



I was thinking of Perrin's wife when I was writing my last post! I'm sure I would have finished it, but it was to the point that I was annoyed while reading even when I enjoyed what I read. 

My major issue with the series is that it dragged on too long in the middle there. Since the last few when Jordan knew he was nearing his end and since Sanderson picked it up, the "rewards" have been coming by the page. Although, I am also pretty prepared to be completely disgusted by the ending. I've been prepared for this since the entire "WHEEL OF TIME" motif says that everything keeps repeating and that there is no end. I almost left the series also when they discussed the parallel worlds where the dark lord won. I'd say that the way I handle time travel, parallel worlds and prophecy in my book is most largely influenced by Wheel of Time--although not a positive influence. 



Ankari said:


> After a while it's hard to find the motivation to care about the difference.
> 
> You don't have to look very far to find a real world example.  The Sikh bombing that killed 6 (I think) recently.  They were killed because people couldn't distinguish between a Sikh and a Muslim.  Now, ask people to distinguish between a Muslim and a terrorist.  And this after only 11 years.  Imagine 3,000



I think anyone that deals with Muslims or people from the Middle East on a regular basis don't have any issues distinguishing. These people dealt with men and women on a regular basis and the ones that could naturally channel were the freaks that went away and died or were stilled and killed by the Aes Sedai. Kinda' like serial killers or sociopaths. Since 99% of the men that people encounter were the "safe men" (until Rand) and 80% of the women that people encounter were not "Aes Sedai", I think they would (and SHOULD) be able to tell the difference. 

But even in their politics it is the same way! Almost EVERY political body in that series is overtly sexual...err, sexist. 

(ostentatiously sexual or ostensibly sexist--gotta' love word endings)


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## Mindfire

Ankari said:


> Who in their right mind totally disregards the opposite sex simply because they are _the opposite sex_?



I don't know. My early years in grade school come to mind. That particular philosophy was quite popular back then. Even now the sound of female giggling makes me nervous. It never means anything good.


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## Ankari

Let's take the an example from the series and dissect it.  If anyone hasn't read the series, don't go on.  We're going to share a lot of the later content.

Egwene was supposed to be Rand's wife.  They grew up together, as you said.  Suddenly an Aes Sedai sweeps in to take her, a couple other girls, Rand and his two friends away from the Two Rivers.  Egwene learns in the Tower that all men who can channel are tainted.  They are in possession of a power that will drive them mad and may cause devastation in their wake.  She then studies with the Wise Ones.  The Wise Ones hold to the belief that the chiefs of the clans are children who need their (Wise Ones) leadership to balance the constant bloodshed between clans.  She studies a long time with the Wise Ones.  And they all seem resentful of men.

Next, she continues her studies with the Aes Sedai rebels.  Logain is in camp, a constant reminder of what happens to men when the possess the One Power.  She is raised to the Amyrlin Seat and burdened with the responsibility of mending the fissure between the Aes Sedai.  She has 3,000 years of precedent to live up to concerning her obligation to the Aes Sedai and role they impose on the rest of the world.  It's a constant them with her: the Dragon Reborn is to ride into Tarmon Gaidon with the White Tower guiding him.  She isn't Egwene any more.  She is the Amyrlin Seat that is crushed under 3,000 years of expectation.

So then you have Rand.  He is the Dragon Reborn.  He hates scheming, hates selfish desires, hates petty conflict.  He has a voice in his head warning him against Aes Sedai.  He has been shielded by Aes Sedai, beaten by them, and finally forced to kill a whole bunch of them.  He knows what his task is and accepts that he will die doing so.  He just wants everyone to stop resisting and follow him so he can get it done.

When the two meet, after Egwene becomes Amyrlin, they have a conversation.  He doesn't see her as Egwene from Two Rivers any more.  She is the Amyrlin Seat.  The unfortunate thing is that she can't treat him as Rand from the block.  He is the Dragon Reborn who has shown signs of what all human dread from a man touching the One Power.  

Rand wants the White Tower to bend knee to him.  Egwene is afraid of the Black Tower and of what bending knee to Rand implies.  He has shown that he is more ruthless than Aes Sedai.  He has killed and expects all to do the same at his command.  The Black Tower trains their recruits _to be weapons._  Aes Sedai hold to the rule that they should not kill unless threatened or against the encroaching Shadow.

So taking all this into account, you can see why they don't trust each other.  It's similar to two brothers that play for two different football teams.  They understand themselves to share blood, but they have to do what's in the best interest of their respective team.


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## Mindfire

Ankari said:


> Let's take the an example from the series and dissect it.  If anyone hasn't read the series, don't go on.  We're going to share a lot of the later content.
> 
> Egwene was supposed to be Rand's wife.  They grew up together, as you said.  Suddenly an Aes Sedai sweeps in to take her, a couple other girls, Rand and his two friends away from the Two Rivers.  Egwene learns in the Tower that all men who can channel are tainted.  They are in possession of a power that will drive them mad and may cause devastation in their wake.  She then studies with the Wise Ones.  The Wise Ones hold to the belief that the chiefs of the clans are children who need their (Wise Ones) leadership to balance the constant bloodshed between clans.  She studies a long time with the Wise Ones.  And they all seem resentful of men.
> 
> Next, she continues her studies with the Aes Sedai rebels.  Logain is in camp, a constant reminder of what happens to men when the possess the One Power.  She is raised to the Amyrlin Seat and burdened with the responsibility of mending the fissure between the Aes Sedai.  She has 3,000 years of precedent to live up to concerning her obligation to the Aes Sedai and role they impose on the rest of the world.  It's a constant them with her: the Dragon Reborn is to ride into Tarmon Gaidon with the White Tower guiding him.  She isn't Egwene any more.  She is the Amyrlin Seat that is crushed under 3,000 years of expectation.
> 
> So then you have Rand.  He is the Dragon Reborn.  He hates scheming, hates selfish desires, hates petty conflict.  He has a voice in his head warning him against Aes Sedai.  He has been shielded by Aes Sedai, beaten by them, and finally forced to kill a whole bunch of them.  He knows what his task is and accepts that he will die doing so.  He just wants everyone to stop resisting and follow him so he can get it done.
> 
> When the two meet, after Egwene becomes Amyrlin, they have a conversation.  He doesn't see her as Egwene from Two Rivers any more.  She is the Amyrlin Seat.  The unfortunate thing is that she can't treat him as Rand from the block.  He is the Dragon Reborn who has shown signs of what all human dread from a man touching the One Power.
> 
> Rand wants the White Tower to bend knee to him.  Egwene is afraid of the Black Tower and of what bending knee to Rand implies.  He has shown that he is more ruthless than Aes Sedai.  He has killed and expects all to do the same at his command.  The Black Tower trains their recruits _to be weapons._  Aes Sedai hold to the rule that they should not kill unless threatened or against the encroaching Shadow.
> 
> So taking all this into account, you can see why they don't trust each other.  It's similar to two brothers that play for two different football teams.  They understand themselves to share blood, but they have to do what's in the best interest of their respective team.



This all sounds like it might be interesting enough to read if I wasn't constantly irked by Jordan's awkward name structures and reputation for going on far too long. Maybe when they put out an abridged version I'll read that instead.


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## Steerpike

Just showing the example of Rand and Egwene isn't enough. If that's all there was to it, it wouldn't be so bad. Even if it was everyone with respect to their attitudes toward Rand and his channeling men, it wouldn't be so bad. But it's all of them, including as noted above Perrin's wife toward Perring, Matt and his girlfriend/wife, Egwene and the rest of them toward Matt and Perrin, and so on.


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## Mindfire

Maybe these people are just fundamentally different from us in a way we don't fully get? They live in an alternate world. Why might they not simply have natures different in some ways from our own? Maybe their society just has a larger gender gap as a side effect of the magic disturbance.


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## Steerpike

Mindfire said:


> Maybe these people are just fundamentally different from us in a way we don't fully get? They live in an alternate world. Why might they not simply have natures different in some ways from our own? Maybe their society just has a larger gender gap as a side effect of the magic disturbance.



It's not set up that way, however. There is nothing at all to suggest the whole world acts this way. It is just the main characters, and primarily when not talking keeps one side in the dark long enough to complicate the plot. If you haven't read it, you won't fully understand the lengths at which this goes on in the books and how contrived it gets by the time you start getting six or seven novels in.


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## Mindfire

Steerpike said:


> It's not set up that way, however. There is nothing at all to suggest the whole world acts this way. It is just the main characters, and primarily when not talking keeps one side in the dark long enough to complicate the plot. If you haven't read it, you won't fully understand the lengths at which this goes on in the books and how contrived it gets by the time you start getting six or seven novels in.



Um... politics? Mistrust? All out hatred? All of these are potential reasons for not sharing information. Heck, within our own _government_ it takes a lot of pressure to make the FBI and CIA play nice together. Not to mention the rest of the intelligence/law enforcement community. It's not _terribly_ unrealistic in that sense.


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## Steerpike

Mindfire - read the books, then get back to me.


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## Mindfire

Steerpike said:


> Mindfire - read the books, then get back to me.



Not a chance. I'm reading summaries.


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## Steerpike

Heh. Well, unless you actually read them, you can't understand the absurdity of it. You can throw out all the speculative reasons you want, but the truth is none of those things are supported in the story and the way it plays out, with the withholding of information, really does get ridiculous.


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## Zero Angel

It really is absurd. But the existence of it is one thing. I remember being frustrated WAYYY back in Book I and going, well, these are young characters, we will see them develop as the series goes on...boy was I wrong. Anyway, the existence of it is one thing, the fact that it n-e-v-e-r ends is an entirely different beast. 

Even when the characters are _repeatedly_ confounded by their sexist attitudes and the sexist attitudes of those they interact with, it never freaking ends. No character ever wakes up. No character ever realizes, hey, maybe they're not so bad. Even as the characters are "developing" to the point where they tolerate those they are prejudiced towards, they still twist it in their heads so that it the relationship comes out sexist and absurd. It is so freaking absurd. *Sooooo freaking absurd.*

(Well, Lan seems mostly OK from what I remember.)

But it's not even just that. MANY of the characters are possessed of a ridiculous sense of ego and the belief that they know what is best for the world and everyone else around them no matter what. This is between females mostly, although Rand does this with everyone (to be fair, Rand seems to be mostly right). So men hate females and women hate males, but women also hate women.

At least, that's my interpretation of his works -_-


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## BWFoster78

Wow, quite a bit of in depth analysis above.

WoT is my favorite series evah, but even I don't claim that Jordan is perfect.

I get Steerpike's frustration, but it (the problem, not Steerpikes frustration - gotta watch those antecedents) doesn't bother me that much.

My take on it from the beginning was that it was a simple mechanism to interject humor and conflict that ended up being taken WAY to far.  It's annoying at times, but, for the most part, I overlook it.

Something that actually annoyed me quite a bit more:

Moiraine (and everyone else) is so skeptical that Rand can cleanse Saidin.  Help me out here.  Everyone keeps referring to the cyclical nature of their world.  At some point, Saidin is clean and becomes sullied.  At some point, it HAS to be clensed.  Is it really that much of a stretch to think that it is the Dragon Reborn that does the cleaning?  Really?


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## Ankari

> I get Steerpike's frustration, but it (the problem, not Steerpikes frustration - gotta watch those antecedents) doesn't bother me that much.



Even though I'm providing argument in favor of Jordan's usage of this contrived tension, I actually hated it too.  At more than a few points in the story I'm thinking "Rand!  Lay down the hammer!"  He does a few times, especially towards the end.  But I wanted to see so more of that assertiveness.  Especially with the White Tower.  I really wouldn't have been surprised if Rand would have stepped in and said "Enough of the BS.  You're either following me or getting Balefired!"


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## BWFoster78

> I really wouldn't have been surprised if Rand would have stepped in and said "Enough of the BS. You're either following me or getting Balefired!"



I'm at work so I couldn't actually burst out laughing.  I wanted to, though.

This is so you.

"Kill them!  Kill them all!"


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## Ankari

BWFoster78 said:


> I'm at work so I couldn't actually burst out laughing.  I wanted to, though.
> 
> This is so you.
> 
> "Kill them!  Kill them all!"



Amend that, sir.  It's "Kill all those who don't follow (everyone)."

But being more serious, the WoT was the first true love affair I had with a book.  The scene with Rand not aiding Moraine against Lanfear crushed my heart.  I was 13 at the time, so perhaps that had something to do with it.

I always wondered why Jordan didn't spin the story of Lan Mandragoran into his how series.  That dude was awesome.  Then he came out with _New Spring._  I was also glad to see he got more attention in the later books.  

Characters I hate: Egwene, Elaine.

Characters I love: Rand, Perrin, Mat, Lan, Aviendha, Moiraine, and Elias (remember him?)

One more point.  The prologue to the WoT sent chills down my spine.  LOVED IT.


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## Mindfire

Ankari said:


> Even though I'm providing argument in favor of Jordan's usage of this contrived tension, I actually hated it too.  At more than a few points in the story I'm thinking "Rand!  Lay down the hammer!"  He does a few times, especially towards the end.  But I wanted to see so more of that assertiveness.  Especially with the White Tower.  I really wouldn't have been surprised if Rand would have stepped in and said "Enough of the BS.  You're either following me or getting Balefired!"


Yes. Heroes nuking uncooperative jerks. Fantasy needs more of that please. I'm making a note to add something like that to my WiP.


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## BWFoster78

> Characters I hate: Egwene, Elaine.



As I've stated before, we have wildly different tastes.  I'm pretty much ambivalent about Egwene.  I wish, perhaps, that her story didn't occupy quite as much of the book.  Elaine, however, is my favorite character after Rand.



> Characters I love: Rand, Perrin, Mat, Lan, Aviendha, Moiraine, and Elias (remember him?)



Rand is obviously my favorite.  Perrin and Faile are both cool.  I like Mat, but not as much as most readers seem to.  Lan is okay, but not all that.  Aviendha annoys the crap out of me.  I'm pretty ambivalent toward Moiraine.  I do remember Elias, but he didn't make a strong enough impression on me to think of him as anything more than an minor character.



> One more point. The prologue to the WoT sent chills down my spine. LOVED IT.



Meh.  Not so much with me.

EDIT: BTW, I love the thread title.  It makes me feel more erudite just reading it.


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## Ankari

Steerpike said:


> Just showing the example of Rand and Egwene isn't enough. If that's all there was to it, it wouldn't be so bad. Even if it was everyone with respect to their attitudes toward Rand and his channeling men, it wouldn't be so bad. But it's all of them, including as noted above Perrin's wife toward Perring, Matt and his girlfriend/wife, Egwene and the rest of them toward Matt and Perrin, and so on.



Mat and his wife is easy enough to explain.  Mat hates Aes Sedai, and by extension, any meddling woman.  Any girl that doesn't put their nose in his business, he's fine with.  I think we see a few examples where he doesn't have that mistrust to women.  Tuon is from Seanchan Royal line that is ruled by women.  It doesn't surprise me in the bit that she mistrusts men who do not bend and scrap the ground before her.


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## Steerpike

You're rationalizing Ankari. I could sit here and come up with a rationale for each and every bizarre manifestation of this behavior, but when you throw it all together into one series of books and realize that it is consistently, inexplicably following this same pattern, I think you have issues.

That said, this isn't what made me stop reading Jordan. Rather, it was the pointless, rambling narrative that went on and on for pages with nothing of note happening. I was driving a lot at the time, so I just took to listening to them on audio CD, where they were more bearable. 

I have completed the first 10. I still need to do 11 through 14, and the only thing stopping me from starting book 11 is that Jordan actually wrote part of it. Maybe I can find an audio book.

I liked _New Spring_, however.

Characters I like:

Perrin, Nynaeve, Aviedha, Lan, Suan


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## Ankari

> That said, this isn't what made me stop reading Jordan. Rather, it was the pointless, rambling narrative that went on and on for pages with nothing of note happening. I was driving a lot at the time, so I just took to listening to them on audio CD, where they were more bearable



Yeah, this nearly killed my interest in the book.  I took to the habit of skipping what I expected to be a long-winded drone about the grass and tress.  It made it more bearable.

As I said, I hated the male-female tension as much as you.  I really wanted Rand to bulldoze through that crap, shake the world from the unjustified arrogance, and get everyone on the same page.

I am and have been playing devil's advocate simply as an exercise.  At the end of the day, we an only swallow so much implausibility.


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## Steerpike

So how are Sanderson's contribution to the series?


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## Ankari

Steerpike said:


> So how are Sanderson's contribution to the series?



His first book he sapped the spirit from Mat.  Whenever he introduced Mat, it felt like a bland, contrived character.

His second attempt he did a better job.  I almost couldn't tell.  I'm left wondering if its because the second-to-last book had so much going on that I didn't really care about the smaller details.  Whatever it was, I felt as good reading it as I did the first 4 books (they were the best, IMO).


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## BWFoster78

Steerpike said:


> So how are Sanderson's contribution to the series?



I agree with Ankari.  The series had languished a bit.  He brought it back to life.  

I'm not a huge Sanderson fan (I've read most of his other stuff, and none of it has blown me away).  I'm very happy, however, with how he's continued the series.


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## Zero Angel

BWFoster78 said:


> Wow, quite a bit of in depth analysis above.
> 
> WoT is my favorite series evah, but even I don't claim that Jordan is perfect.
> 
> I get Steerpike's frustration, but it (the problem, not Steerpikes frustration - gotta watch those antecedents) doesn't bother me that much.
> 
> My take on it from the beginning was that it was a simple mechanism to interject humor and conflict that ended up being taken WAY to far.  It's annoying at times, but, for the most part, I overlook it.
> 
> Something that actually annoyed me quite a bit more:
> 
> Moiraine (and everyone else) is so skeptical that Rand can cleanse Saidin.  Help me out here.  Everyone keeps referring to the cyclical nature of their world.  At some point, Saidin is clean and becomes sullied.  At some point, it HAS to be clensed.  Is it really that much of a stretch to think that it is the Dragon Reborn that does the cleaning?  Really?



Well, at least THAT (that being the saidin being tainted) has been something they've all accepted as irrefutable fact their entire lives. But don't people start to believe him? Or is it just more of the bloody gender roles, "A man couldn't have done that. Oh no." 

Plus there's always the chance that he didn't cleanse it but just concealed the taint  although I don't think that is the case here. 

But seriously, he HAD to cleanse the taint of the dark one or he would be using the dark one to beat the dark one. It seems rather unavoidable and logical that this would have happened. Since the dark one in Jordan's books is a "real" dark lord and not just a trumped up one.

(The implication being that a trumped up dark lord could have his own works used against him).


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## BWFoster78

Exactly, he HAD to do it.

Jordan added a lot of, IMO, false tension by relying on a point of contention that was, on the face of it, stupid.  It's the same thing as the gender tension; he just keeps that going longer.

Sometimes an author goes too far in an effort to create tension.


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## Mindfire

BWFoster78 said:


> Exactly, he HAD to do it.
> 
> Jordan added a lot of, IMO, false tension by relying on a point of contention that was, on the face of it, stupid.  It's the same thing as the gender tension; he just keeps that going longer.
> 
> Sometimes an author goes too far in an effort to create tension.



Maybe the women resisted Rand in his mission because they liked the status quo and wanted the concentration of power to remain in female hands?


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## Zero Angel

Mindfire said:


> Maybe the women resisted Rand in his mission because they liked the status quo and wanted the concentration of power to remain in female hands?



Yes. Because females are superior to males according to every female in the series...this is what we have been saying...

I also hate how EVERY character has to delude themselves into allowing someone else to rule over them. Anytime someone else is in charge it is because their character is letting them think they are in charge or they are just letting them be in charge until it is convenient. It's absurd.


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## Mindfire

Zero Angel said:


> Yes. Because females are superior to males according to every female in the series...this is what we have been saying...
> 
> I also hate how EVERY character has to delude themselves into allowing someone else to rule over them. Anytime someone else is in charge it is because their character is letting them think they are in charge or they are just letting them be in charge until it is convenient. It's absurd.



Well, it's not _completely_ implausible... *glances sidelong at uber-radical feminists*


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## Zero Angel

Mindfire said:


> Well, it's not _completely_ implausible... *glances sidelong at uber-radical feminists*



It's not implausible, but it doesn't feel natural in Jordan's world to me, plus, the fact that every bloody character is this way. 

It's not just the females though, we also have the misogynists of the story feeling the same way in reverse!

 (interesting that we have a "correct" word to describe thinking females inferior, but we use "radical feminists" to describe the reverse)


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## Ireth

Zero Angel said:


> (interesting that we have a "correct" word to describe thinking females inferior, but we use "radical feminists" to describe the reverse)



Just by looking at the roots, I believe "misandry" is the opposite word to misogyny. (Learning Greek comes in handy sometimes!)  If it is a word, which Firefox tells me it isn't. I don't think misanthropy is quite right; that's prejudice against humans as a whole.


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## Steerpike

As an aside, I wouldn't say radical feminists are anti-man; the underpinning to that form of feminism is anti-patriarchy. Rather than attempt to define women's equality by how well they adapt to patriarchy and emulate traditionally higher-valued male roles, the idea is to redefine the value system itself so that patriarchal determination of what is valuable and what isn't doesn't control.


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## Mindfire

Ireth said:


> Just by looking at the roots, I believe "misandry" is the opposite word to misogyny. (Learning Greek comes in handy sometimes!)  If it is a word, which Firefox tells me it isn't. I don't think misanthropy is quite right; that's prejudice against humans as a whole.



Firefox lied to you.


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## Mindfire

Steerpike said:


> As an aside, I wouldn't say radical feminists are anti-man; the underpinning to that form of feminism is anti-patriarchy. Rather than attempt to define women's equality by how well they adapt to patriarchy and emulate traditionally higher-valued male roles, the idea is to redefine the value system itself so that patriarchal determination of what is valuable and what isn't doesn't control.



I said _uber_-radical feminists. The kind who believe that "true equality" means "male enslavement and/or castration." They're a minuscule fringe group to be sure, but they do exist. It's quite disturbing.


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## Feo Takahari

Mindfire said:


> I said _uber_-radical feminists. The kind who believe that "true equality" means "male enslavement and/or castration." They're a minuscule fringe group to be sure, but they do exist. It's quite disturbing.



Totally off-topic, but you can tell a lot about feminists by how they treat transsexuals. The really crazy ones treat FTMs as traitors, and MTFs as playactors who can never be "real" women. The sane ones (who are thankfully the vast majority) usually have at least some respect for them.

I'd contribute something on-topic, but I've never actually read _The Wheel of Time_, in part because the stuff I've read about that series and gender has scared me off.


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## Mindfire

Feo Takahari said:


> Totally off-topic, but you can tell a lot about feminists by how they treat transsexuals. The really crazy ones treat FTMs as traitors, and MTFs as playactors who can never be "real" women. The sane ones (who are thankfully the vast majority) usually have at least some respect for them.
> 
> I'd contribute something on-topic, but I've never actually read _The Wheel of Time_, in part because the stuff I've read about that series and gender has scared me off.



Don't take this wrong, but are you some kind of trans or gender activist? I ask this because I think I recall you posting something about bringing up trans issues in your WiP. Correct me if I'm mistaking you for someone else.


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## Kit

Mindfire said:


> . Even now the sound of female giggling makes me nervous. It never means anything good.



That made me giggle.


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## Kit

Zero Angel said:


> I also hate how EVERY character has to delude themselves into allowing someone else to rule over them. Anytime someone else is in charge it is because their character is letting them think they are in charge or they are just letting them be in charge until it is convenient. It's absurd.



This is one of the things I disliked most about the series- Jordan seemed to really get his rocks off by taking a powerful person (seemed like it was usually a woman) and bringing him or her low in a completely dominated and humiliating fashion. I was particularly squicked by powerful women being put under the control of men and being SPANKED as a way of keeping them in line (these are adults! And it's not just a consentual kinky sex game, for which you have to sorta grant a pass- this is life!). Even more disgusting, the women were somehow still enamored of those men. 

See Ann Bishop's Black Jewels series for a real treat in how to to play with power balances between the genders.  Who is in charge keeps switching, but it does work out to a balance, and nobody is subjugated in a humiliating fashion. Everybody gets to keep their dignity, and no one gender is The Big Evil.

(Well, there are some villians and subplots where this doesn't hold true, but I speak of the non-villain MC's)


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## Zero Angel

Mindfire said:


> Firefox lied to you.


I"VE LOOKED FOR THAT WORD FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS!

-_-

As someone mentioned earlier, I knew how to make the word with the roots, but I have not been able to find its existence confirmed other than as a language exercise. Interestingly though, my original point can still stand with slight modification. Misogyny the word has been around for at least the last 150 years, while misandry (which Firefox says is spelled wrong) has been around for the last 70 years. 



Kit said:


> This is one of the things I disliked most about the series- Jordan seemed to really get his rocks off by taking a powerful person (seemed like it was usually a woman) and bringing him or her low in a completely dominated and humiliating fashion. I was particularly squicked by powerful women being put under the control of men and being SPANKED as a way of keeping them in line (these are adults! And it's not just a consentual kinky sex game, for which you have to sorta grant a pass- this is life!). Even more disgusting, the women were somehow still enamored of those men.
> 
> See Ann Bishop's Black Jewels series for a real treat in how to to play with power balances between the genders.  Who is in charge keeps switching, but it does work out to a balance, and nobody is subjugated in a humiliating fashion. Everybody gets to keep their dignity, and no one gender is The Big Evil.
> 
> (Well, there are some villians and subplots where this doesn't hold true, but I speak of the non-villain MC's)



-_- I forgot about the spanking. The whole thing is just nuts.


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## Kit

Zero Angel said:


> -_- I forgot about the spanking. The whole thing is just nuts.



Wish I could. It was only about two lines buried in the middle of a bazillion books- yet it left such a bad taste in my throat that there was just no coming back from that.


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## Steerpike

I'm not sure I'd make the leap from how an author portrays something to what their own personal viewpoint might be. I know I write stuff all the time in which characters embody ideas or principles that are completely opposite to my own. Other times, they are in alignment. I suspect most writers are this way, and you can't really draw any conclusions about Jordan's personal feelings on gender unless you have some additional evidence apart from what is depicted in the books.


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## Kit

That is true, but when a theme keeps coming up again and again and again, you start to have suspicions.


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## BWFoster78

Kit said:


> That is true, but when a theme keeps coming up again and again and again, you start to have suspicions.



Obviously, it comes up over and over again in WoT.  He apparently decided, for whatever reason, to make it a theme in the series.

If it comes up in multiple series, I think you can make some kind of judgment.

I haven't read anything else of his.


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## Kaellpae

I think the only other notable work he did was Conan?


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## Ankari

Robert Jordan is his Pen Name.  He has written other nonfantasy stuff under a different name.


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## Mindfire

Anybody think the gender issues would have worked better if he'd made the distrust between the men and women more (intentionally) humorous instead of Serious Business?


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## BWFoster78

Mindfire said:


> Anybody think the gender issues would have worked better if he'd made the distrust between the men and women more (intentionally) humorous instead of Serious Business?



I always thought of them as intentionally humorous.  Kinda a source of light-hearted conflict.


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## Zero Angel

BWFoster78 said:


> I always thought of them as intentionally humorous.  Kinda a source of light-hearted conflict.



Really? I never found them humorous at all! Maybe I'm too easily frustrated...Or maybe I just have that Disney mentality of everything works better if we all work together...


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## rhd

What you might be referring to is 'straw feminist'. They're not feminist at all and I've never met one (and I've been feminist all my life.)


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## rhd

Robert Jordan rocked my boat but I was able to sustain my interest in the series only till book seven. Still, a lot to learn from him regarding details, descriptions, sustained storytelling. If interesting gender dynamic is what you're looking for it's not the ideal place to find it. Le Guin is definitely my source for that.


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## Mindfire

rhd said:


> Robert Jordan rocked my boat but I was able to sustain my interest in the series only till book seven. Still, a lot to learn from him regarding details, descriptions, sustained storytelling. If interesting gender dynamic is what you're looking for it's not the ideal place to find it. Le Guin is definitely my source for that.



I loved the Earthsea books... up until the point Ged was depowered. After that the books seemed to stop trying to tell interesting stories in favor of pushing feminism. I stopped reading.


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## rhd

Yeah, The Other Wind was a bit of a disappointment, I liked it at first then I realized I was just being a loyal reader, definitely not up to par with the other books. The short stories based on the Earthsea books were pretty good though. Otherwise I just love her stuff because she manages to be feminist without necessarily even having female characters, her most famous works have male MCs and they are amazing.


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## Konrad

Hmmm... 

I'm new around here and new to the thread. Yet I'm another one who generally dug the series (or the idea of the series), as well as certain parts of the series (Matt cracked me up and I liked Perrin, as he seemed like an honest, down-to-earth character, but the women pressing their skirts flat and the constant attention to low-cut blouses wore me out maybe 50 pages in. I'm definitely a fan of beautiful women, but that's something I could have done without. The spanking thing and the pillow friends also got on my nerves. On the other hand, it seemed like his writing became more interesting the further I read (and yes, I did read the entire series, as well as the last book released). 

Later, I read the Game of Thrones series... It seemed remarkably similar in concept (regarding the politics between houses), but without the juvenile spanking aspect. Ended up being a big fan of Martin and I've really enjoyed his short stories... Either way, the sheer output of both is phenomenal...

K


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## Benjamin Clayborne

While Jordan's approach to gender roles was definitely very distinctive, it ultimately isn't all that interesting, and the fact that the same kinds of situations got played out again and again over the course of eleven books ended up making it annoying. He definitely suffers from the male gaze problem (though not as bad as some), and he seemed to lack an awareness of how repetitive the gender stuff got. It's like he never went back and read his series, or if he did, he never noticed the obvious signposts in his writing style.

_The Wheel of Time_ is, as far as I'm concerned, the canonical example of an epic fantasy series that went on way too long. He could have wrapped the whole thing up in 9 or 10 books if he hadn't decided to drag out so much of it. Props to Brandon Sanderson for efficiently tying things up (so far, anyway; still waiting on the last book).


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