# Is Fantasy really doomed to die?



## Amanita

I’ve been reading the two recent articles on the main page and I think quite a few things in there are worthy of discussion but maybe the comment section isn’t the right place for this.

Both articles talk about the ”ždeath of fantasy“ but is fantasy really a genre which is terminally ill? 
There are the extremely popular YA stories like Harry Potter and Twilight with some others which are quite popular as well, there are popular ”žtraditional works“ like those of Jordan, Goodkind or Paolini even though the quality of the latter might be up to debate and there are well-known series of darker and more realistic fantasy written by Abercrombie or Martin. These are only the most popular works and in my opinion they’re already covering a vast range of different interests and there’s much more around.
Therefore my question: Why are you so worried about the future of fantasy? At least to me it rather seems as if the whole genre with its various facets had grown way more popular in recent times.

To comment on another point raised: Does brain matter splattering across the page really make a book better or does it need this kind of thing to be suitable for adults? Personally, I don’t think so. Often, it doesn’t even make much sense with the chosen view-point. Would a soldier really stay and watch the details of his enemy’s gruesome death rather than turning to the next enemy? Why should we as the readers?
As strange as it sounds, but I tend to get quickly bored with long-winded descriptions of violence. One example I really hate is the mad torturer who sees breaking his victim’s bones one by one as an art and tells us about it delightedly. 
Where are the rational torturers who do what they’re doing to achieve their goals? And where are the consequences of the torture in the surviving victim? This is a matter hardly ever explored in fantasy, the only crime that might have consequences for the victim is rape. (Maybe because the victims in this case tend to be women and not The Hero )

I like many of the stories featuring and being geared at young people and I also like many of the others, especially if they’re covering an interesting subject. My ideas also go into both directions and I see nothing wrong with both kinds of books being published.
The fact that authors who try to make their books accessible for as many people as possible sell more books than those who exclude large groups of possible readers to tend to other people’s pride seems rather obvious to me. That doesn’t mean that the others don’t sell their books, but it may mean that they don’t make it to the front pages of the news. 

Other commenters as visible a few threads below actually fear that too many dark and cruel books are the death of fantasy, which I’m not afraid of either.


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## Map the Dragon

I'm really glad the article (and the one before it) are causing an awareness and sparking discussion. But let me clarify -

I don't think the genre of Fantasy is dying. In fact, I know it to be thriving, both via observation in society, schools, and bookstores, but more importantly in easily researchable statistics.

But, Fantasy if thriving on YA peices. My struggle is two-fold. First, the goal of explaining and expanding the concept and defintion of Epic/High Fantasy. Second, to define what it is that sets the two apart. In no way am I an opponent of YA. I read and absolutely love many YA pieces. But my true favorites might fall in the at 'Epic' sub-genre that I see as a dwindling breed in the face of YA. 

I don't prefer the mentioned 'dark and cruel', but I do prefer the sub-genre of Epic over YA; it is that distinction that I see as obvious and that I see as a threat to Epic. 

Fantasy as a whole lives and breaths more now than ever.


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## CicadaGrrl

I agree!  Fantasy has been thriving lately.  All the sudden it isn't just us nerds.  Everyone is reading fantasy, watching fantasy, gaming fantasy.  I'd actually say we are in a renaissance.  Yeah--all the old genre and subgenre rules are going out the window, but I sincerely appreciate this.

As for graphic violence:  I hate torture scenes.  I understand they may be necc. to some book plots, but I would never write it.  Too often it feels like the author jacking off into the intestines of their character.  It really turns me off.  

However--I write graphic violence.  I do not go on and on about it.  It happens fast.  It is action, reaction, move on.  Most of the description happens when the fight is over and the character has time to reaction to what they have done--to the death around them.  I like using blood, guts, bile, half digested food and people losing control of their bowels when they die.  Why?  Because death is awful.  Esp. violent death.  It is disgusting.  It is sickening to every single sense.  The fact that my character killed someone--I want them to feel that.  Every death, you die a little.  My characters are not, in general, battle veterans or people who enjoy violence.  The are sick and horrified about what they have done, and all the senses, memories, etc. after it occurs.  I'm not trying to focus on violence as something artistic and interesting.  I want you to feel like vomiting.  Doing anything else is irresponsible to me.


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## SeverinR

I think fantasy is thriving.
I agree the strongest area of growth is young adult. (HP)

But I think this goes in cycles.  I think adult fantasy lovers read YA fantasy as well as adult fantasy.

I think there is room for all aspects of fantasy.  Blood and guts spattering the walls on every page might sell to one group.  Epic tales, like LOTR, will appeal to others.  I also believe there is a group of people out there that would love to read a story that isn't world altering or some legendary hero(epic).

I doubt fantasy will ever die.


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## Map the Dragon

SeverinR said:


> I think fantasy is thriving.
> I doubt fantasy will ever die.



Let's hope not; for if it does, then we will also see firsthand the destructive nature of THE NOTHING.

Come on guys. Who is old enough to understand what the heck I just said? What movie is focused on the theme of dying fantasy and dreams?

Another hint; my German Shepherd is named Atreyu.


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## Amanita

I've actually read the book. How old does this make me?


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## Joe the Gnarled

To the winch, wench!

Name that actor who said that Map (It is a line from your movie)


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## Kate

I think we're safe, so relax. As has been mentioned above, genre popularity is a cyclical thing. Fantasy is hot now - I think that has a lot to do with developments in digital cinema in the last decade or so... before then it was really hard to actualise good fantasy on the screen (not impossible, a perfect example has also been referenced above!).. among other things.  

I had the opportunity recently to visit Galaxy, a fantasy/sci-fi dedicated bookshop in Sydney, Australia, and spent a good while browsing around.  The sheer scope of works, and this is just in the fantasy section, was absolutely mind-boggling.  So many concepts I'd never of dreamed of (and authors I've never heard of). It all just reminded me how *HUGE *the culture is. So even if the current popular trend dies off into something different, fantasy, I'm certain is not doomed to die. 

Has there ever been a genre that has "died"?


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## TWErvin2

Kate said:


> Has there ever been a genre that has "died"?


 
Westerns. They still have a small slice of the market, very small but a shadow of what it once was.


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## Map the Dragon

Joe the Gnarled said:


> To the winch, wench!
> 
> Name that actor who said that Map (It is a line from your movie)



Engywook (character) played by Sydney Bromley (actor).


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## Joe the Gnarled

Map the Dragon said:


> Engywook (character) played by Sydney Bromley (actor).



Good job... I was actualy wrong, I thought it was Billy Crystal.  I think my wife put that idea in my head.  Thank goodness for IMDB


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## Kate

TWErvin2 said:


> Westerns. They still have a small slice of the market, very small but a shadow of what it once was.



The western is still around though, so it hasn't died, merely quiet.


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## Map the Dragon

Joe the Gnarled said:


> Good job... I was actualy wrong, I thought it was Billy Crystal.  I think my wife put that idea in my head.  Thank goodness for IMDB



A funny and somewhat similar character was Miracle Max (played by Billy Crystal) in the Princess Bride.


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## Joe the Gnarled

Map the Dragon said:


> A funny and somewhat similar character was Miracle Max (played by Billy Crystal) in the Princess Bride.



Love that movie... That is probably where the confusion comes from.


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## Argentum

I don't think fantasy will die, but I can understand the fear. When I think of fantasy dying, I don't think really about the darkness and violence in the newer books. What I think endangers fantasy is the cookie-cutter fantasy (but this could just be me picking up all the wrong books). Same plot, different variations. A certain scenario sells and everyone produces one just like it with slight variations to call it different. There doesn't seem to be any book coming out that is original. So many people borrow elves and dwarves and orcs and only make slight changes to the races. Like they use those cliche races simply because they won't have to put any thought into creating new ones.


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## Matty Lee

Fantasy isn't doing too bad. Look at YA sales, and GRRM has a HBO show after his mammoth series that is actually doing well. Fantasy is doing fine. It's old fashioned "High Fantasy" which seems to be to be digressing into "Forgotten Relams" rewrites. There's nothing wrong with "Forgotten Relams" but Epic/High Fantasy isn't being done as much as it should. It's too useful a genre to be disposed of.


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## Edgemaker

I would hope that Fantasy is not dying, But I think a bigger question is: "Is Imagination dying?" I think that if Imagination dies then fantasy is just a result. The other day my little brother was forced out of the house to go and play because he spent too much time in front of the TV and the computer, and I decided to go out with him. I found him outside standing and looking at the woods which are about 20 feet from our house. When he saw me he asked me "now what do I do?" This surprised me incredibly because my little brother is about 13 years old with what I thought was a fertile imagination. When Kids forget how to go out and play Make believe then I think that will kill Fantasy.


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## Argentum

That's really sad, Edgemaker. I used to have those sorts of bouts when I was a kid, but if you are forced from the house and the tv often enough, you find things to do. Luckily, me and my 3 siblings lost that dependency on the TV/internet. The funny thing is how much fantasy requires creativity and the imagination. Sure, you need creativity to write any sort of story, but because fantasy is entirely unrealistic and made of pure imagination, if people stop using their creativity, it dies... or fails miserably and ends up cookie-cutter fantasy no one really likes to read.


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## Edgemaker

Right now I still think Fantasy is feeding off of the model of Tolkien, with mixes of Dungeons and Dragons. There was one story called Adventurers wanted: Slathbogs Gold, and I felt that I was reading the script for a Video Game rather than real fantasy I forget who the author is though.


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## Philip Overby

I think fantasy as we know it is slowly dying.  I'm not really sure if that's a bad thing.  Endless Tolkien clones don't really do it for me anymore (although Tolkien is great).  

I think the use of dragons, knights, goblins, and the like can be good, if the writer is good.  George R.R. Martin actually uses a lot of cliches in his writing, but he's a good writer so he can get away with it.  

I personally would like to see more fantasy borrow from old mythology and history or just create all new creatures (having a ugly, dirty, pointed eared, bald, slobbering creature and calling it a "slabberkin" doesn't fool people, it's a goblin/orc).  

I like to refer to China Mieville because he has created interesting, new worlds without borrowing too heavily from the Tolkien model.  People like familiar stories too much, so people created them for a long time.  But I think the days of "old school" fantasy are dwindling down.  Mainly because the authors that are writing this kind of stuff are hacks.


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## Edgemaker

I am with you there. If I write a fantasy novel, I am going to try my hardest to be original about it but I think that I will put together some parts of some fantasy that I like into it.


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## epublishabook

That makes you a kidult  the new term to describe adult who enjoy reading YA literature.  This is a term that was born following Harry Potter success both with adults and the intended audience of YA. It is also a term that is widely used nowadays in the publishing world when describing target market. So you are not alone ...


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## Aegle

I just think the best writers aren't as marketable as those newer authors. I think true Fantasy fans will keep to their roots and genre though, no matter how mainstream more adolescent inclined writers take to mainstream.


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## epublishabook

My book is about a rescue mission led by the two main characters, a young girl who believes in magic and legend and a quantum physics genius who explains every single avent through science. Now, it is not science fiction because it has elements of supernatural, nor is it fantasy, because it has science. Where does that leave me?


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## Aegle

Erm, perhaps what age of industry/invention the world has? I think genre in terms of industrial progress. I could be dead-wrong though!  If you were referring to "Medieval" Fantasy, otherwise I believe Fantasy could apply to nearly anything with a magical foundation.


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## pskelding

Thanks to Bookscan we now can safely say that fantasy is an evergreen genre. This means that fantasy always sells and will always sell. It will have the spikes and the dips like other evergreen genres mystery, military thrillers and horror.  But it will always be bought by publishers and readers.  So fantasy writers will always have a chance.  

I think the demise of sci-fi has been quicker because our society has advanced so rapidly. Nanotech was a dream in the 80s and now doctors are using it only 20 years later. Cyberpunk has basically died because most of it's underpinnings are common technology and culture now.  The only successful scifi now is the space operas by Peter Hamilton and others or super hard scifi and only barely successful.  I don't want you all to deride me for speaking the truth that is contained in the Bookscan numbers. I love me my scifi; Jon Scalzi, James SA Corey, Peter Hamilton, Sean Williams, and others but it just isn't selling as well as fantasy is save for the big scifi writers. 

People have been saying for 2 years that the urban fantasy genre was going to die out like the vampire boom in horror. It hasn't and probably won't because it's an offshoot of traditional fantasy.  We can thank a big part of that on 2 Harry's - Potter and Dresden.  

I think we also can't forget about fantasy and sci-fi readers. They are generally more up on current technology and were the first to buy kindles and ebooks on their phones.  They were leading the way for the industry and demanded that the sci-fi and fantasy publishers provide ebooks.  When the new wave of epublishing hits, call it 2.0 with interactive books once again fantasy and sci-fi readers will lead the way demanding LOTR Interactive etc.  Most of the authors playing around in interactive ebooks now are fantasy and sci-fi. 

There is a bright future indeed for fantasy and hopefully sci-fi.


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## epublishabook

I just submitted my manuscript to MuseItUp Publishing. Wish me luck


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## Vandroiy

I think it is strange to use "young adult" as a counterpart to "Epic/High Fantasy".

Quite frankly, I was always hoping to get (and now make) something that is both. My favorite styles of fantasy are epic world-driven fantasy like Wheel of Time, but also what some call Super Power of Shounen Manga that almost jump in your face.

Now the latter is obviously "young adult", as that is the target audience. But I don't really see a contradiction here, a story can both have a large, well-designed world and flashy scenes and development suitable for a young adult audience. In fact, when I read one style, I often miss the other.

If you ask me for two poles, I would name "world-driven story" as one, in which the inner logic of the world dominates how the story develops. I just watched the Game of Thrones TV series -- that is it, where the world's rules are ruthlessly applied unless it really hurts the story. Its counterpart would be "story-driven world", as in Harry Potter, where the rules bend to produce some desired outcome, even if it appears unlikely or leaves loopholes that just nobody in the story happened to see. I dislike the latter kind, its worlds survive only via ignorance of its own past features or repeated appearance of the Deus Ex Machina.


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## Guy

It may not be dying out, but for those of us who like high fantasy and don't like YA it's a bit of a wasteland right now. Going into the fantasy section of my local bookstores is an exercise in frustration. The last fantasy I read was the Transitions trilogy by R.A. Salvatore and it was a thundering disappointment.


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## Emeria

Argentum said:


> What I think endangers fantasy is the cookie-cutter fantasy (but this could just be me picking up all the wrong books). Same plot, different variations. A certain scenario sells and everyone produces one just like it with slight variations to call it different.



Cookie-cutter is worse (and more prevalent) in romance novels.


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## Mistresselysia

epublishabook said:


> I just submitted my manuscript to MuseItUp Publishing. Wish me luck


Good luck!! 



Guy said:


> It may not be dying out, but for those of us who like high fantasy and don't like YA it's a bit of a wasteland right now. Going into the fantasy section of my local bookstores is an exercise in frustration. The last fantasy I read was the Transitions trilogy by R.A. Salvatore and it was a thundering disappointment.


R.A. Salvatore lost it a few years ago in my opinion - I used to really enjoy his stuff, but as time went on, his characters became more and more ridiculous until they became caricatures of themselves. Just look at poor Drizzt!

As I have said in another thread, the problem with High fantasy as I see it is that it has become so bloated and self-important over the years that it has become complacent. It seems to be dominated by a few big names, and the more they add to their massive opuses, the more self-indulgent they become to the point where they become parodies of themselves. I feel the genre is ripe for re-invention: it needs a leaner, more hungry set of writers to come and take it by the balls, so to speak; get rid of the fat and take it to new places... but whether a publisher would be willing to take the risk, given the reputation high fantasy has right now in the eyes of the general populace (that it is largely the domain of the basement dwelling nerd with no social skills and an obsession with elves in skimpy chainmail) is another matter entirely...



Emeria said:


> Cookie-cutter is worse (and more prevalent) in romance novels.


Definitely - but that doesn't mean fantasy should be allowed to get away with it, just because other genres do it too. And I'm saying this as a dyed in the wool fantasy fan - a lot of fantasy IS cookie cutter stuff, and it is damaging the genre as a whole. Publishers are just as guilty of perpetuating this as anyone else (after all, they hold the keys to the castle), and it is up to writers and readers to demand something different. Problem is - who is going to take that risk? It's hard enough to get your foot into the door of the publishing world as it is; I can see exactly why so many writers play it safe. 

As for fantasy being doomed to die - as long as humans dream of something other than what goes on in this reality, then no, fantasy will not die. But it does have to evolve and move with the times. And it has to stop trying to re-write Lord of the Rings! (There is a wry joke in Industrial music circles that every single Industrial band is a Ministry side project - well, it sometimes feels that every single high fantasy novel is a Lord of the Rings side project. And as much as I love LotR, in order for the genre to survive, it's time to let Frodo go...)


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## Guy

Mistresselysia said:


> R.A. Salvatore lost it a few years ago in my opinion - I used to really enjoy his stuff, but as time went on, his characters became more and more ridiculous until they became caricatures of themselves. Just look at poor Drizzt!


Yeah, I started getting a little worried when he started having Drizzt do those damn monologues at the beginning of a section. I consider that to be a huge rule violation - you shouldn't need a monologue for the readers to get to know your character. It should be a natural occurance as they read the story.


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## RedRidingHood

I don't think fantasy is dying, but it does need to start rapidly evolving. You can only create so many worlds, with so many powers. The challenge when writing is to think to yourself "huh does this feel familiar?" If it does, examine it and see how you can make it fresh and new, strange and less familiar. That's the only way to ensure any genre stays alive.


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## Metalfist

Fantasy will never die, but the definition of what designates a piece of writing as fantasy will evolve. It's like the conversation batted around in gaming circles, "what defines an RPG?" You could take almost anything that is not written as non-fiction and call it fantasy. A western novel is as much a fantasy as a detective novel or the latest offering by Stephen King. Sure I'm stretching things a bit thin, but they're all fueled by someone sitting in front of a keyboard, intent on exercising a vivid imagination. High fantasy simply takes everything to the nth degree.


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## mrmister

I'm a new member. So it's fine.


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## Leif GS Notae

Fantasy will never really die out, it always goes through cycles. It always thrives as a way to escape from the reality of the world, but the same thing was said about the western novels before it. Any escapism will always draw readers.

I hate to say it, but seeing the statistics of how many adults pick up a book after they graduate, it is a miracle any book sells at this point. There is a reason why YA thrives right now, it seems that this is the last most of them remember enjoying (opinion and personal research with friends only, your results may vary).

Even though I get chided for this; the attention span for the long, plodding novel of yesteryear is shot. To write in that strain is a death sentence before you get started. If we (as writers) cannot evolve and change to meet our customer's demands and requirements, we will be doomed to fail. This is why flash fiction is growing, this is why the 1000 word story seems to be grabbing more attention since it is quick and easy but still satisfying to most readers.


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## chrisw

Anyone who says fantasy is doomed to die should consider how much revenue was generated by Harry Potter and Twilight alone over the last couple years. Fantasy is stronger than ever.


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## Privid

I think fantasy will thrive, albeit in different forms and even mediums, such as games. Besides, I think the stressful fashion of our lives will promote more and more escapism over time and I think fantasy is perfect dor that.


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## Konstanz

Fantasy is becoming more mainstream... It's no longer limited to dorky figures hiding in shadows with a stash of books and a laptop with WoW on it. 

Think about all the HBO series that are historical/fantasy that are being made!? Camelot, Spartacus, The Borgias, The Tudors etc. Yes most of that is historical, but historical leans very closely to the (low) fantasy genre. Also, I didn't mention the most important series of that yet: 

Game of Thrones. 

Game of Thrones is very popular right now and if you haven't heard of the series yet, you've been living under a rock for the past six months.


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## Graham Irwin

Fantasy will die! It will bow it's head and to the evil lords of non-fiction!

As the masses cry and bewail their literal, gray, boring lives, the evil fantasy lords will suck all imagination out of your pathetic human brains and humans will dream no more! 

Our time has come at last! When the bullies no longer let the D&D kids play in the corner of the schoolyard, when the Warcrafters of the world are all just dusty skeletons behind their computers, it will be our day!

Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!

*the previous was as ridiculous as thinking that fantasy story-telling would ever fall out of fashion.


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## Steerpike

Graham Irwin said:


> *the following was as ridiculous as thinking that fantasy story-telling would ever fall out of fashion.



I'd guess fantasy is as popular now as it ever has been in modern history.


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## Elder the Dwarf

Guy said:


> Yeah, I started getting a little worried when he started having Drizzt do those damn monologues at the beginning of a section. I consider that to be a huge rule violation - you shouldn't need a monologue for the readers to get to know your character. It should be a natural occurance as they read the story.



Really?  I love the monologues, it was something different that I hadn't really seen in fantasy before, and I liked to look into Drizzt's philosophically inclined mind.  In fact, my signature comes from one of those moments.  I do agree, however, that the recent entries have not been nearly as good as the others in the series.


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## Steerpike

There aren't any 'rules' like no monologues to violate. If there is any rule I guess it is don't bore your reader.


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## Reaver

Steerpike said:


> If there is any rule I guess it is don't bore your reader.



Amen to that.


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## Ronald T.

I guess I'm the "odd man out" on this issue.

When I read forums in which so many posts are negative and nit-picking about the continuation of established tropes in Epic Fantasy, I have to wonder if those who complain about the ever-present components of what makes this genre what it is, have simply read too much of it.  Perhaps -- for their future enjoyment of the genre -- it's time for those who are tired of what constitutes classic Epic Fantasy to try a different genre for three or four years.  As the saying goes..."distance makes the heart grow fonder".

I realize it's easy to become jaded and unimpressed with almost any aspect of our lives.  I absolutely love sushi, but if I have it too often -- I'm talking about two or three times a week -- the excitement and fun of going to a sushi bar no longer holds the  same level of enjoyment.  So I understand the sentiment of "enough is enough".  Of course, if that were to happen, I'd find a different type of restaurant.  I wouldn't malign sushi for being what it is.

I have been reading epic fantasy for nearly forty years, and I do so for the tropes I assume will be there, to experience each new author's variation on those beloved tropes that got me hooked on epic fantasy in the first place -- by far, my genre of choice.  I don't mind reading something different, like Patrick Rothfuss' THE NAME OF THE WIND, or Scott Lynch's THE LIES OF LOCKE LAMORA.  They were very enjoyable reads.  But when I seek to satisfy my obsession with classic Epic Fantasy, I return to authors who give me the necessary tropes.  If I don't find those expected standards in a novel prior to the end, then I feel quite disappointed -- even cheated.

Whether the subject matter is Epic Fantasy, Science Fiction, mystery, romance, historical, biography, or any other genre -- if you are growing tired of it, then perhaps you need a break.  Try reading other genres for a few years.  I might allow the magic of Epic fantasy to return when you start reading it again.

But what do I know?  I'm just a hermit in the woods.

My best to you all.


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## BWFoster78

Ronald,

I think you're probably right.

Over at another forum, "lessons learned" posts are quite popular. You know the type - "Hey, I've started publishing a year ago, and this is what I wish I'd known then:"

One of the main lessons learned that's repeated over and over is that, if you want to sell books, you have to give the readers what they expect. Not incorporating the standard tropes is heralded as a big reason for the failure of many a novel.


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## Steerpike

@BWFoster I think it is largely down to the skill of the author as well. A lot of readers really like innovative books that break boundaries and blaze new paths, etc. And there are some very good such works that have done well with readers. The problem is, it is not easy to go that route, so if you're going to do it your skill as a writer has to be all the greater because whatever new path you're blazing you have to be able to make it work. For a lot of writers, I suspect going with the standard tropes is going to help them because they've got decades of work that has been done for them within the genre. If you take readers out of that comfort zone, you have to be really good at what you're doing.


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## BWFoster78

> @BWFoster I think it is largely down to the skill of the author as well.



I think that, if the author isn't skilled, no book is going to enjoy any amount of real success.

All I know is that post after post of people who have tried to sell books in the real world say this (paraphrased, quotes for ease of reading only):



> For my first book, I wrote what I wanted. Couldn't give the things away. I went and studied the bestsellers in my category, found the intersection of what I wanted to write and what the readers wanted, and wrote it. That book sold.





> A lot of readers really like innovative books that break boundaries and blaze new paths, etc.



I do not dispute this fact in any way, form, or fashion.



> The problem is, it is not easy to go that route, so if you're going to do it your skill as a writer has to be all the greater because whatever new path you're blazing you have to be able to make it work. For a lot of writers, I suspect going with the standard tropes is going to help them because they've got decades of work that has been done for them within the genre. If you take readers out of that comfort zone, you have to be really good at what you're doing.



Exactly. If you're blazing a new trail, how do readers find that trail? If you follow the conventions, it's easy to find the readers who like the conventions; simply go to the bestseller lists.  Thus, it's easy to sell those books.

I have no idea how you sell an original book.  There are tons of example of how to sell conventional books.


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## Steerpike

BWFoster78 said:


> I think that, if the author isn't skilled, no book is going to enjoy any amount of real success.



As a general rule, probably. There are exceptions, I think. For example, I downloaded a sample of Chuck Wendig's contribution to the Star Wars universe, _Aftermath_. And I have to say the writing quality is pretty poor. But no doubt it's going to sell a lot because Star Wars


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## Steerpike

BWFoster78 said:


> I have no idea how you sell an original book.  There are tons of example of how to sell conventional books.



Ask Mark Danielewski, I guess. Have you read _House of Leaves? _It's an original book, to the extent that it even throws rules of grammar and how to format the book out the window. Yet not only did it sell well, you have NY Times critics calling it the most profound book written by an American in this century. Not the most profound fantasy novel. Book, period. 

Which isn't to suggest that any given person has to like that novel, but it does show that unconventional books can sell. Other examples, in my view, would be Nabokov and David Foster Wallace.


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## RupamGrimoeuvre

Steerpike said:


> ... If there is any rule I guess it is don't bore your reader.




Sums up just about everything I was about to write.


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## BWFoster78

Steerpike said:


> Ask Mark Danielewski, I guess. Have you read _House of Leaves? _It's an original book, to the extent that it even throws rules of grammar and how to format the book out the window. Yet not only did it sell well, you have NY Times critics calling it the most profound book written by an American in this century. Not the most profound fantasy novel. Book, period.
> 
> Which isn't to suggest that any given person has to like that novel, but it does show that unconventional books can sell. Other examples, in my view, would be Nabokov and David Foster Wallace.



Here's where I'm coming from: it is not easy to get a book noticed in today's publishing environment. Period. Right now, I'm not even going to try to do much promotion at all until I get the 3rd novel published in my primary series.

Even if readers like my writing and I figure out promotions and the books conform well to the genre expectations, there is still no guarantee that I'll ever be able to quit my day job.

Were I to go off the reservation and just write whatever I wanted with no regard for the audience, my chances of success would plummet. That's what every resource I can find is telling me.

Sure, the authors you mention found success that way. Some people find success buying lottery tickets (I keep hoping that I'll be one of them!).  I don't think, however, I should count on hitting those six numbers to fund my retirement. It's much better to sock money away in a 401(k) every month.

Again, I don't hear a lot of voices out there who have tried it saying, "Your best route to success is to be original." In fact, I literally hear the exact opposite from people who have real experience in the marketplace.


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## Steerpike

BWFoster78 said:


> Here's where I'm coming from: it is not easy to get a book noticed in today's publishing environment. Period. Right now, I'm not even going to try to do much promotion at all until I get the 3rd novel published in my primary series.
> 
> Even if readers like my writing and I figure out promotions and the books conform well to the genre expectations, there is still no guarantee that I'll ever be able to quit my day job.
> 
> Were I to go off the reservation and just write whatever I wanted with no regard for the audience, my chances of success would plummet. That's what every resource I can find is telling me.
> 
> Sure, the authors you mention found success that way. Some people find success buying lottery tickets (I keep hoping that I'll be one of them!).  I don't think, however, I should count on hitting those six numbers to fund my retirement. It's much better to sock money away in a 401(k) every month.
> 
> Again, I don't hear a lot of voices out there who have tried it saying, "Your best route to success is to be original." In fact, I literally hear the exact opposite from people who have real experience in the marketplace.



I don't disagree with any of this. So, it depends on your goal. If you want to write mainstream commercial fiction to try to appeal to as broad an audience as possible, that's great. And there are certain ways you should approach how you write, what you write about, and so on.

Some people don't want to write that sort of thing. Some of those writers who want to be as original and unconventional as possible would still like to sell a lot of books, even knowing they have a harder road ahead of them. Others don't even care that much about sales or readership, they just want to write what they want to write and get it out to an audience that will like it, even if it is a small one.

So, when you're looking at questions of tropes, archetypes, and fulfilling standard genre expectations, or really any other aspect of how you go about writing your book, you have to start by looking at the goal of the author. Your goal, from what I can gather, is to write commercial fiction that appeals to a broad audience. Nothing wrong with that goal - I read a lot of that kind of fiction. But I also read a lot of fiction that wants nothing to do with being commercial or appealing to large audiences, and I'm glad that stuff is out there as well and wouldn't discourage a writer from writing that way if they want to.


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## Ronald T.

I have to say I probably disagree with more than half the stuff critics write on the page or say on TV.  Clearly, my taste in what the world has to offer is a distant cry from their points of view. 

The problem with most paid critics -- whether they are in news papers or on TV -- is that they are paid to sensationalize their work.  Not always, but far too often, they are at one end of the spectrum or another on so many issues, including but not limited to books, movies, restaurants, clothes, music, and politics. 

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion.  The problem arises when we take someone else's opinion too seriously.  

Remember, critics, by their very description, are jaded.  So, when they find something they haven't seen before, it's as if they blow an O-ring in trying to convince the public that it's the greatest thing since the discovery of penicillin.

Throughout my life, I've listened to people I didn't know that well tell me they were an expert in this...or they could do a certain thing...or that they had years of experience in one field or another.  Then after awhile, I'd discover that none of what they said was actually true.   

So, when it comes to so-called experts, I've become somewhat of a "Doubting Thomas".  If a critic says something is "very good" or "very bad" and it turns out to be true, then I'm ahead of the game.  But what if they're wrong?  Then it's too late.  I've bought a poorly written book, or I've gone to a terrible movie, or I've wasted my money on a restaurant I can't believe can stay in business, or the converse, I might miss out on something I could've enjoyed tremendously.  Now, my attitude is: let me find out for myself.  


I realize that's their job.  But I always take it with a large grain of salt.  I'm the type who likes to judge the world by my own standards, not by those who are paid to exaggerate.  If I'm wrong in my choices, I have no one to blame but me.

But like I said earlier, what do I know?  I'm just a hermit in the woods.

Once again, all my best.


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## Russ

BWFoster78 said:


> Again, I don't hear a lot of voices out there who have tried it saying, "Your best route to success is to be original." In fact, I literally hear the exact opposite from people who have real experience in the marketplace.



It depends on what marketplace you are talking about.  I think you are talking about the self-publishing market place.

Some traditional publishers have been replacing acquiring editors in the spec fic (and other) fields because they have not brought in enough original projects that they believe can be made successful.  That's right, acquiring editors have been released and reprimanded for not buying enough new works by their employers.

The editors in question suggest they are not seeing enough quality original work to keep their employers happy.

Those editors are in a tough spot.  If they don't bring along enough projects they catch it.  If the projects they bring along don't sell, that doesn't help either.  They are looking for quality original work to buy and promote.


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## Steerpike

Russ said:


> It depends on what marketplace you are talking about.  I think you are talking about the self-publishing market place.
> 
> Some traditional publishers have been replacing acquiring editors in the spec fic (and other) fields because they have not brought in enough original projects that they believe can be made successful.  That's right, acquiring editors have been released and reprimanded for not buying enough new works by their employers.
> 
> The editors in question suggest they are not seeing enough quality original work to keep their employers happy.
> 
> Those editors are in a tough spot.  If they don't bring along enough projects they catch it.  If the projects they bring along don't sell, that doesn't help either.  They are looking for quality original work to buy and promote.



If you look at a lot of the traditional publishing guidelines, the editors are saying they want new, fresh, original material. Whether they're actually buying it is a separate question, I suppose, but I feel like there has been a fair amount of originality in published fantasy in the last few years.


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## thedarknessrising

I highly doubt that the fantasy genre is going to die. Mankind has been telling fantastic stories through the ages. The pantheon of gods as told by various cultures such as the Norse, Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, etc, are what keep this genre thriving. Mankind has a fascination with the impossible and otherwordly, and it's that passion which drives what we do. As long as their is that hunger for the fantastical, there will always be new fantasy books hitting the shelves.


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## BWFoster78

> It depends on what marketplace you are talking about. I think you are talking about the self-publishing market place.



Absolutely. I have no idea what agents and publishers are looking for.


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## Mindfire

First off: nobody panic. Fantasy is not "dying". It's simply changing. Over the past couple decades fantasy has started to look less like medieval Europe and more like any one of innumerable variations: new kinds of worlds, new subgenres, new voices. This is cause for celebration, not concern. It's a sign of life, not death. After all, living things change. Tolkienesque/D&D high fantasy used to be the only game in town. Now it isn't. Even if you like the traditional style, that's good news. If every new fantasy book, film franchise, or video game IP that came out looked exactly like the one before it, _then_ we would have cause to be worried about the death of fantasy. The western died, in my opinion, because it stagnated. The same basic stories over and over with few innovations. People got bored of it. Fantasy's ever-evolving nature makes that fate unlikely. The specific kind of fantasy that you prefer may not be in vogue, but that doesn't mean it's going away. It's just sharing the stage with lots of other kinds of fantasy now.


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## X Equestris

Fantasy isn't going to die.  Even the Westerns didn't die.  They just don't have the influence they once did.  And even then, Western themed fiction has been able to do quite well.  The remake of True Grit is one on the film front, while Red Dead Redemption is one as far as video games go.  And there are works in other genres that use Western themes and combine it with elements of their parent genre, leaving us with the Space Western and Weird West/Six-Guns and Sorcery.  So if the Western can still influence other genres and come out with a few big successes, why would Fantasy do worse when it as a genre is in much better health?


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## FifthView

I was in a Walmart Supercenter recently and for the first time in a few years walked through their book section.  I saw multiple Western novels available, actually more Westerns than fantasies, I think.  Which was something of a let-down, although I haven't bought a book from Walmart in well over a decade and had no intention to buy one.  As a young kid and then a teenager in the '70's and '80's, living just outside a small town that didn't have a book store, supermarkets and Walmart were like heaven, for their book sections.


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## Mythopoet

FifthView said:


> I was in a Walmart Supercenter recently and for the first time in a few years walked through their book section.  I saw multiple Western novels available, actually more Westerns than fantasies, I think.  Which was something of a let-down, although I haven't bought a book from Walmart in well over a decade and had no intention to buy one.  As a young kid and then a teenager in the '70's and '80's, living just outside a small town that didn't have a book store, supermarkets and Walmart were like heaven, for their book sections.



This is interesting because for a long time publishers insisted that the western was dead. Then self-publishers came along and started writing the books they wanted to instead of the books publishers told them to, and proved that there is still a market for Westerns. 

Seriously, if anyone EVER tells you that a type of story is dead, just laugh in their face because they almost certainly have no real idea what kinds of books readers truly want.


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## Steerpike

I don't think Westerns have ever really gone out of style. They were on the shelves in Walmart, at least in the midwest, through the 90s and into the first decade of the 2000s. Particulary, authors like Ralph Cotton and L'amour still sell, and William Johnstone has been selling a lot of westerns traditionally from his start in the 1980s up until his death in the early to mid-2000s. His books sold so much that another author was chosen to carry on his various series.


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## Mindfire

Isn't the decline of westerns mostly a film phenomenon though?


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## X Equestris

Mindfire said:


> Isn't the decline of westerns mostly a film phenomenon though?



It is, though the literature side of it had a pretty big decline from its peak, too.


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## Steerpike

X Equestris said:


> It is, though the literature side of it had a pretty big decline from its peak, too.



Yeah, I think it dwindled from its peak but there are a handful of Western authors that have still sold a lot of books over the last two or three decades.


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## Russ

I hope this is true.  I love a well written western.  I buy used stuff by Lamour all the time to read tight, razor sharp prose when I feel I am getting too wordy.

I do know from my friends who write and work in the romance field that western romances sell pretty darned well.

Loves the  movies as well, but I think much of their day has passed.


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## Steerpike

Russ said:


> I hope this is true.  I love a well written western.  I buy used stuff by Lamour all the time to read tight, razor sharp prose when I feel I am getting too wordy.
> 
> I do know from my friends who write and work in the romance field that western romances sell pretty darned well.
> 
> Loves the  movies as well, but I think much of their day has passed.



Elmore Leonard wrote some good westerns, and both Ralph Cotton and William Johnstone are good reads.


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## Miskatonic

The boom in popularity of comic book heroes and villains, though not exclusively in the fantasy camp, should dispel the notion that this type of content is dying. 

Maybe a particular style of fantasy storytelling is becoming less popular.


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## Mythopoet

Fantasy stories will never die. Anyone who says differently is selling something.


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## Incanus

The premise that fantasy could die out strikes me as deeply flawed.  Even something like rock music isn't dead yet, it's just going the way of jazz.


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## MineOwnKing

I think Fantasy is stronger than its ever been, especially now that it's cooler for girls than it was 25 years ago.

There are more younger people with buying power than there was 40 years ago, plus it's much simpler now to increase the frequency of sales because of on-line sales and the more popular use of credit cards.

Wanna buy a song? Just throw it on the parents iTunes account. Same with Kindle.

No more mowing lawns or working on a farm to earn the money to buy books or music anymore. 

The market just looks askew because of added consumers.

A good example of this is some of the aging rock stars from the sixties. Some of the pioneers of rock were really heavy into meaningful lyrics that spoke about the troubles of the times.

Those that are still living, often complain about the pop stars of today and how music has changed.

I disagree. With easier access to songs and more time on their hands than adults, teens and younger kids are consuming more of the music that is fun for them. They are not facing the draft, or burning bras, they are watching cartoons and playing games.

When this group of kids gets to be 5 to 10 years older, then they will start to explore other types of music and books. Fewer people buy entire albums now, but more songs are being purchased overall. 

It's kind of like Adam Sandler fans. They grow up and then realize he doesn't seem as funny as when they were 16.

Western movies are a little bit different story because they appealed more to the baby boomers and television westerns were popular in the 50's and 60's when they were young.

But soon Clint Eastwood and John Wayne will seem brand new to the younger crowd and they will learn to love westerns too.

The hard part is getting people to see your work with all the digital noise crowding up the room.


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## A.J.

TWErvin2 said:


> Westerns. They still have a small slice of the market, very small but a shadow of what it once was.


There's still a huge romance western market though. Gravy.


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## ScorpionWoman

I agree, I do not think fantasy is dying. Some are simply putting too restrictive parameters around what they consider fantasy. It's become so broad they would have to actually look for what they wanted. As always something's are going to be more popular than others _Twilight_ spot lighted Vampires and Wolves, didn't mean dragons and mermaids ceased.
Even writers can be narrow minded.


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