# Jaded with the whole Fantasy/Sci-fi genre



## Miskatonic (Dec 16, 2016)

I haven't been around for awhile (not that I expected my absence to be noticed ), and mainly because I am just bored to death with pretty much all contemporary fantasy and Sci-Fi. Thus my motivation/inspiration to write has been waning. I just see all that is offered up today as cookie cutter and streamlined for mass consumption. Doesn't matter what format it takes, or what country produces it. It's just the copycat syndrome taken to the extreme. Or it's reboot after reboot. Just one gigantic void that sucks the life and soul out of creativity. 

Just sick of all of it.

/End of rant


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## Steerpike (Dec 16, 2016)

You should expand the scope of your reading. Sounds like you're picking up mostly highly commercial stuff that replays the same well-worn tropes. There's a lot of other SF/F out there.


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## Nimue (Dec 16, 2016)

I agree with Steer.  There are a lot of gems out there, but the stories that sparkle for you might not be at the top of the mass-market heap.  I don't read a lot of the big names in fantasy--Martin, Sanderson, etc--but I've carved out a niche of other authors that really make me happy.  Don't assume that you should like what's popular--or that because you don't, that there's nothing out there for you.

Maybe try a platform like Goodreads, where you can rate what you've liked in the past and it'll give you recommendations from there.  It's not perfect, but it's better than never reading anything new again.


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## skip.knox (Dec 16, 2016)

The best way to ensure you never read anything good is to stop reading.


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## Chessie (Dec 16, 2016)

Miskatonic said:


> I haven't been around for awhile (not that I expected my absence to be noticed ), and mainly because I am just bored to death with pretty much all contemporary fantasy and Sci-Fi. Thus my motivation/inspiration to write has been waning. I just see all that is offered up today as cookie cutter and streamlined for mass consumption. Doesn't matter what format it takes, or what country produces it. It's just the copycat syndrome taken to the extreme. Or it's reboot after reboot. Just one gigantic void that sucks the life and soul out of creativity.
> 
> Just sick of all of it.
> 
> /End of rant



I'm sorry.  May I ask what it is that you've been reading? Baen? 

Just tossing a suggestion your way but maybe take it back to the classics. Those are always wonderful to revisit. Also, have you considered any Indie authors? Depending on what subgenre of Fantasy you're reading I may be able to provide you with a bit of reading. I vet my Indie books strongly so you wouldn't get any crap, of that I assure you. Send me a PM if you're interested.

Also, I second Goodreads. Their book lists have been helpful in finding more of the niche markets.


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## Steerpike (Dec 16, 2016)

'Vorrh' Takes A Dizzying Trek Into The Dark Heart of Fantasy : NPR


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## Miskatonic (Dec 16, 2016)

Chessie said:


> I'm sorry.  May I ask what it is that you've been reading? Baen?
> 
> Just tossing a suggestion your way but maybe take it back to the classics. Those are always wonderful to revisit. Also, have you considered any Indie authors? Depending on what subgenre of Fantasy you're reading I may be able to provide you with a bit of reading. I vet my Indie books strongly so you wouldn't get any crap, of that I assure you. Send me a PM if you're interested.
> 
> Also, I second Goodreads. Their book lists have been helpful in finding more of the niche markets.



I've tried to read the current big names in fantasy writing and just have little to no interest in them. I've been trying to find more horror/supernatural/occult stuff. 

The problem is I've burned out on the classics because that's what I usually resort to reading when I can't find anything new.


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## Steerpike (Dec 16, 2016)

Miskatonic said:


> I've tried to read the current big names in fantasy writing and just have little to no interest in them. I've been trying to find more horror/supernatural/occult stuff.
> 
> The problem is I've burned out on the classics because that's what I usually resort to reading when I can't find anything new.



The BIG names are the ones most likely to be writing mainstream, commercial fantasy that travels familiar paths. That's what sells the most. There is a lot more out there in the genre, though. Forget the big names and look for authors doing new and interesting things.


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## skip.knox (Dec 16, 2016)

Good advice Steerpike, but how does one find the new and interesting? Got any great tips?

Also, Miskatonic, try reading outside the genre. I've been finding some great stuff in unexpected corners.


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## Steerpike (Dec 16, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> Good advice Steerpike, but how does one find the new and interesting? Got any great tips?
> 
> Also, Miskatonic, try reading outside the genre. I've been finding some great stuff in unexpected corners.



I just get on my Kindle or go to the bookstore and browse, then buy new/random books by authors I have never heard of. That's how I got the Catling book I linked a review of, above. Sometimes I get stuff I don't like. Sometimes I get books that are very good. 

There are probably also fantasy book reviewers that tend toward non-mainstream work. If I see a fantasy book mentioned in The Atlantic, or on NPR, or something, I know it's not likely to be mainstream fiction. I'm sure there are such reviewers online, but honestly I just browse and buy books (which is even more of a random process for me in that I don't read blurbs, so I bought The Vorrh with no real idea as to what it was about).


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## Chessie (Dec 16, 2016)

Miskatonic said:


> I've tried to read the current big names in fantasy writing and just have little to no interest in them. I've been trying to find more horror/supernatural/occult stuff.
> 
> The problem is I've burned out on the classics because that's what I usually resort to reading when I can't find anything new.



Hm. I don't typically read horror, not much past Lovecraft and King. Let me get back to you on this.

Also, Amazon's genre lists are broken atm but it's still possible to find what you're looking for with a bit of searching. Keywords, best-sellers list, and also the new release lists.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Dec 16, 2016)

Miskatonic said:


> I haven't been around for awhile (not that I expected my absence to be noticed ), and mainly because I am just bored to death with pretty much all contemporary fantasy and Sci-Fi. Thus my motivation/inspiration to write has been waning. I just see all that is offered up today as cookie cutter and streamlined for mass consumption. Doesn't matter what format it takes, or what country produces it. It's just the copycat syndrome taken to the extreme. Or it's reboot after reboot. Just one gigantic void that sucks the life and soul out of creativity.
> 
> Just sick of all of it.
> 
> /End of rant



I've gone through periods of feeling the same way about numerous interests, including but not limited to sf/f. There's nothing wrong with taking a break from something if you're feeling burned out on it. Many writing experts encourage authors to read outside their genre. If you're finding horror/supernatural/occult more interesting now, there's nothing wrong with moving your focus there. Whatever keeps your interest. As long as you keep reading, you're bound to find inspiration for your writing. Maybe you'll find yourself wanting to write in a different genre than sf/f for a while. Doesn't mean you'll never come back to sf/f. You might even come back with a new perspective that can help you to create brilliant, fresh sf/f that isn't cut from the same cookie cutter you're sick of now, something for the rest of us to enjoy so that we don't get burned out.  Dissatisfaction can lead to innovation.

And...even if you're not interested in writing sf/f now, it shouldn't stop you from discussing it with those of us who are still trying. We're all here because we want to create something unique, interesting, and entertaining. If you have insights that could help us, maybe some of our future works can pique your interest in the genre again.


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## Incanus (Dec 16, 2016)

I feel you.  Sturgeon's Law comes to mind, which basically says that about 90% of everything is junk.  To coopt audio terminology, it seems these days the noise (junk) to signal (good stuff) ratio has increased, making the good stuff all the more harder to find.  

As a super-slow reader, I have to be a bit picky.  One thing I did recently was to pick up the 2016 Best of Dark Fantasy and Horror anthology.  Reading it on and off, I can sample the work of 30 new writers (at least, new to me) all in one place.  Any of them that really grab me I can follow up on.

(I've read the first five stories so far.  Strangely, it is Neil Gaiman who is running far behind in last place.  His entry was the least original and also used the blandest prose--I don't know why, but I'm just not connecting with this popular writer.)


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## Miskatonic (Dec 16, 2016)

Michael K. Eidson said:


> I've gone through periods of feeling the same way about numerous interests, including but not limited to sf/f. There's nothing wrong with taking a break from something if you're feeling burned out on it. Many writing experts encourage authors to read outside their genre. If you're finding horror/supernatural/occult more interesting now, there's nothing wrong with moving your focus there. Whatever keeps your interest. As long as you keep reading, you're bound to find inspiration for your writing. Maybe you'll find yourself wanting to write in a different genre than sf/f for a while. Doesn't mean you'll never come back to sf/f. You might even come back with a new perspective that can help you to create brilliant, fresh sf/f that isn't cut from the same cookie cutter you're sick of now, something for the rest of us to enjoy so that we don't get burned out.  Dissatisfaction can lead to innovation.
> 
> And...even if you're not interested in writing sf/f now, it shouldn't stop you from discussing it with those of us who are still trying. We're all here because we want to create something unique, interesting, and entertaining. If you have insights that could help us, maybe some of our future works can pique your interest in the genre again.



I'm more than happy to help, but at times you feel like a fraud because you are giving advice/suggestions without having done it yourself. I can't really consider myself a writer at the moment because I'm not actually writing anything. The ideas are all there but I can't seem to be able to force myself to sit down and start writing it out.


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## Miskatonic (Dec 16, 2016)

Incanus said:


> I feel you.  Sturgeon's Law comes to mind, which basically says that about 90% of everything is junk.  To coopt audio terminology, it seems these days the noise (junk) to signal (good stuff) ratio has increased, making the good stuff all the more harder to find.
> 
> As a super-slow reader, I have to be a bit picky.  One thing I did recently was to pick up the 2016 Best of Dark Fantasy and Horror anthology.  Reading it on and off, I can sample the work of 30 new writers (at least, new to me) all in one place.  Any of them that really grab me I can follow up on.
> 
> (I've read the first five stories so far.  Strangely, it is Neil Gaiman who is running far behind in last place.  His entry was the least original and also used the blandest prose--I don't know why, but I'm just not connecting with this popular writer.)



More like 99%, lol. Thankfully I can still find music I like to listen to. TV and film on the other hand takes a lot more work. I've been trying to read more non-fiction works in hopes that I might get some ideas from historical events, different civilizations, etc.


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## ThinkerX (Dec 17, 2016)

I have read a lot of books down through the decades.  Probably no exaggeration to say more than most other posters here.

And yes, I note a certain...sameness...about all too many fantasy and SF books.  They suffer from common issues: with the SF ones, it's all two often space battles between groups with roughly equivalent tech.  Fantasy, enter the Dark Lord, stage left. Urban Fantasy?  Magic and magical creatures abound, performing wonders, despite supposedly being a deep, dark secret.

Not many hold my attention anymore.  

Still...

Danlewinski's (sp?) 'Familiar' series.  Tough to get into, but definitely thought provoking.  

'Unfathomed: Locus' - a relatively recent find on Amazon Kindle.  

Going back a bit further: Kate Elliots 'Crown of Stars' series.  

William Hope Hodgson of 'House on the Borderland' fame from way back also wrote some other strange tales of interest.  

Tierney, an old line SF author, wrote some of the most impressive 'recent' Lovecraft type tales I have seen.  The 'Simon of Gita' (Simon Magus) stories in his 'Scroll of Thoth' helped inspire me during NaNo.  I recently finished his delightful, fully Lovecraftian, and utterly blasphemous 'Drums of Chaos.'   

Franz Werfel, in his 'Star of the Unborn,' published after his death in 1945, presented a marvelous far future (1,000,000 AD) Earth, with one of the most unique means and purposes of 'space travel' I have ever seen, amongst other things, though his style makes the going tough.  

Anyhow, this 'sameness' issue prompted me to venture into a different direction with my writing.  Yes, the current projects are set in what appears to be a stock fantasy world - elves, goblins, wizards, and whatnot.  But where most such tales feature the Great War against the Dark Lord, mine is postwar.  The characters are struggling to adapt to a world that is changing around them.  Technology is being developed, something that rarely happens in fantasy settings.

There is also a Lovecraftian element, with a couple of twists: first, the insignificant mortal insects actually bested a Great Old One, though the details are murky and perilous. (I note this was alluded to now and again in Lovecraft's original works - somebody bound Cthulhu and kin.)  Plus, there's the 'negotiation' aspect - while utterly alien, some of the abominations in my tales are not especially interested in destroying/eating/enslaving humanity.


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## Miskatonic (Dec 17, 2016)

I listened to the audio book version of 'The House on the Borderland" recently, and it wasn't bad.


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## Peat (Dec 17, 2016)

Maybe look at _The Ballad of Black Tom_? Sounds an interesting twist on Lovecraft.

_The Just City_ by Jo Walton is another fairly unconventional sounding one. Disclaimer: both are on my TBR list so I could be wrong.


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## Miskatonic (Dec 17, 2016)

Peat said:


> Maybe look at _The Ballad of Black Tom_? Sounds an interesting twist on Lovecraft.
> 
> _The Just City_ by Jo Walton is another fairly unconventional sounding one. Disclaimer: both are on my TBR list so I could be wrong.



The Ballad of Black Tom looks like some type of veiled criticism about Lovecraft's racism. Not something that I'm interested in. People seem to be fixated on this aspect of Lovecraft to the point where they've removed his likeness from sci-fi/fantasy awards. This is exactly what I dislike about contemporary sci-fi/fantasy.


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## Chessie (Dec 17, 2016)

I know the OP is asking for book recs (and I'm working on some for you it just takes a bit of searching) BUT...I'd like to touch on something that is very relevant to this topic. Aside from our tastes changing as we mature, I agree with Miskatonic about the blandness of books these days. I really think this has a lot to do with this copycat effect of everyone writing the same because rules!

Last night, I revisited an old article by Kristine Katherine Rusch about author voice. It brough to mind the possible reason why I've been reading so much older fiction lately (downloaded Uncle Tom's Cabin last night on my Kindle). Those books have some interesting voices, so very distinct from one another, and I love it. Some make me feel uncomfortable. Some make me feel cozy. Others I'm not so sure of. The point being that they make me feel something. 

Modern literature is bland for the most part. I'm not narrow in my tastes either. I read fantasy, sci-fi, romance, mystery. The older books have much better storytelling voices that actually keep me engaged. When I download a book on my Kindle by a modern author, I yawn. There's one romance author who is selling like hotcakes in trad pub and her name is all over the historical romance genre I have my eye on. Her work is boring. WHY!?!? It's because the greater powers that be, those in charge of everything writing and literature, say:

-don't use contractions
-don't use adverbs
-don't use italics
-don't use ellipses

..._etc!_

It's good that Miskatonic started this thread, because the concept of being who you are when you write, instead of being like everyone else, seems to be fading fast. OP can now take into consideration how he/she wants to move forward in their own writing and make it stand out by not writing bland like everyone else, with the same paragraph structures and lack of adverbs and parentheses and ellipses. I wanted to touch on this because it's important for us as writers to fill holes where other readers, who are not writers, can't fill. This is the second thread in a week, on a writers' forum, that I've come across this topic. It speaks volumes.


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## FifthView (Dec 17, 2016)

I'd compare many modern book releases to modern entertainment on television.

With Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime and network/cable available for choosing what to watch, I've discovered that I simply don't care to keep up with all television shows that I might watch.  There's a certain comfort and lackadaisical approach in watching something that isn't incredibly interesting but is familiar.  So something like _Marvel's Agents of Shield_ once intrigued me and interested me, but now I find the idea of flipping over to it to be boring.  _IF_ one night out of general boredom I turned to it to catch up on the current season, I'd probably enjoy an hour or two–a couple episodes–but I have a vast array of choices available to me, and the decision to pick it specifically has no force behind it.  So there are many different shows like this for me, and I'm falling way behind in watching them.  And I don't care.

One common feature behind these shows is their formulaic approach.  The formula may be something a wide variety of shows share, or it may be a formula that is specific to that series but repeated throughout a run.  Occasionally, the formula is comforting, an idle entertainment.  But I also keep adding new television shows (historically speaking, old and new, but new to me) because by gosh I'm tired of the old formulas and I want something I haven't seen before.  Naturally, this search for the new is another reason for falling behind in keeping up with the old.

There are some television shows that are truly great, hiding in the mix, with their own personality.  As time passes, they are being added to the string of notches I've made, and this makes me feel as if the pool of great "new" shows is shrinking.

To tie this anecdotal experience to modern book releases:  

An awful lot of those releases do seem to be formulaic.  The names and settings have changed but....meh.  I will still pick up a new release in a series I am following, but the time frame between these new releases is usually longer than the time that passes between seasons of a television series.  (And honestly, there aren't many ongoing book series I am following.)

A lot of what's being pushed out may be intended for those who haven't yet grown bored with those formulas.  So people are still buying.  There will always be new crops of readers who will find something "new" for them, and there are longtime readers who enjoy casual entertainment and comfort in the old formulas.

The only sort of advice I can give is a suggestion.  It's old hat, really.  If something you want to see isn't being written, then write it.  Heck, I wonder if a sort of iconoclastic rage could motivate in this regard:  _To hell with the formulas, let's break them! _ But easier said than done.


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## Chessie (Dec 17, 2016)

This is precisely the reason why voice is the main focus of everything I do. Some writers are really good at creating amazing characters. Others develop these intricate worlds that make you believe you're really there. And there are those that are great at several things at once. If there's anything I die doing in this life, it'll be writing, and if I can hone my voice to the point that it's strong and evokes rapid emotion then I'll consider that a success.


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## Steerpike (Dec 17, 2016)

The "rules" are largely directed to popular, mainstream, commercial fiction, which (I'd argue) is also rather generic. If that's what you want to write, the rules are a good guide.


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## Miskatonic (Dec 17, 2016)

The rules issue is part of the reason why I've been ignoring the "How To Write" stuff. At least so far as books, interviews, and podcasts go. 

I have the beginning and the end of the story and the main plot points, I just have a real hard time just sitting down and typing it all out. It's like writer's paralysis or something. I don't know how to describe it.


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## Chessie (Dec 17, 2016)

Miskatonic said:


> The rules issue is part of the reason why I've been ignoring the "How To Write" stuff. At least so far as books, interviews, and podcasts go.
> 
> I have the beginning and the end of the story and the main plot points, I just have a real hard time just sitting down and typing it all out. It's like writer's paralysis or something. I don't know how to describe it.



Totally hear you on that. Once we have the basic concepts down and are more adept at storytelling, it's hard not to let the default artist take over.


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## ThinkerX (Dec 17, 2016)

Miskatonic said:


> The rules issue is part of the reason why I've been ignoring the "How To Write" stuff. At least so far as books, interviews, and podcasts go.
> 
> I have the beginning and the end of the story and the main plot points, I just have a real hard time just sitting down and typing it all out. It's like writer's paralysis or something. I don't know how to describe it.



I can relate to this.  Currently at a standstill on my WIP because of it...or maybe because what I keep telling myself is a series of novellas might be more accurately described as a single continuous story, one I have been tapping away at daily (or close to daily) since last April.  Even more irksome, just four or five chapters (12-15K to go).  

As to the style thing, well, I use ProWritingAid and Grammarly to find and fix 'technical' issues.  And sometimes, they absolutely loath my way of stating things.  Often, I can see their justification, and tweak things a bit.  Other times...no.  'Sticky Sentences' are especially annoying to deal with, as what PWA terms 'sticky sentences' are often the quickest or most natural way of putting something. 'Who are you?' counts as a sticky sentence, for example, as does 'Where have you been?' And despite it being utterly obsolete, both programs are hung up on prepositions at the end of sentences.  Those, I usually ignore outright.

Another thing I have noted is that the older authors tended to have impressive vocabularies, much more so than is normally seen in todays fiction.


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## Miskatonic (Dec 18, 2016)

ThinkerX said:


> I can relate to this.  Currently at a standstill on my WIP because of it...or maybe because what I keep telling myself is a series of novellas might be more accurately described as a single continuous story, one I have been tapping away at daily (or close to daily) since last April.  Even more irksome, just four or five chapters (12-15K to go).
> 
> As to the style thing, well, I use ProWritingAid and Grammarly to find and fix 'technical' issues.  And sometimes, they absolutely loath my way of stating things.  Often, I can see their justification, and tweak things a bit.  Other times...no.  'Sticky Sentences' are especially annoying to deal with, as what PWA terms 'sticky sentences' are often the quickest or most natural way of putting something. 'Who are you?' counts as a sticky sentence, for example, as does 'Where have you been?' And despite it being utterly obsolete, both programs are hung up on prepositions at the end of sentences.  Those, I usually ignore outright.
> 
> Another thing I have noted is that the older authors tended to have impressive vocabularies, much more so than is normally seen in todays fiction.



I think that in general they had a far better grasp of the language and how to use it effectively. The mastery of the craft seems to be missing in a lot of mainstream consumer culture, and art in general in the modern age. Movies and TV are just as bad. I guess as long as the path of least resistance is turning a profit, then there is no reason to try harder.


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## skip.knox (Dec 18, 2016)

I'll speak up for the present. I would say that the quality of television writing is far superior to what was available back in the 1960s and 1970s. Although there's a good deal of dross in the land of movies, overall I'd argue that the field is much deeper and richer than the allegedly good old days. If you look at the *usual* Hollywood movies of the 1930s, for example, most of it was really formulaic, superficial and downright dull. The good stuff was great. The same is true today.

But we write novels and short stories around here. What about those.

Again, same. Part of the perception the present has about the past stems from the way in which documents survive; more specifically, how awareness of documents survives. Bad novels tend not to get reprinted. The physical copies go into attics and boxes and get forgotten and then get thrown out. Good novels get reprinted. They populate library shelves. They sit in bookcases in the family room, where they get examined by curious young people. In brief, they _survive_.

So, when we survey a batch of books, we see these old ones that are really great. We see new ones that are mostly bad, some mediocre and a handful of good ones, because they've not been winnowed by time. This does not reflect the Decline of Western Civilization, it reflects the process of creating our archeological record. Nobody knows the trash the Greeks wrote because the trash has not persisted.

This is another reason why my reading list is populated mainly by classics. The sum of humanity has harrowed those fields, and I don't even like to rake. I read newer stuff from time to time, but when I'm disappointed I do not despair. I realize I'm dipping into a jar of licorice jelly beans looking for a chocolate.


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## Russ (Dec 18, 2016)

I find it bizarre when people complain about not being able to find new and original voices and work.  They are everywhere, to my mind, more than ever.  I think people who can't find novel or original work are not looking in the right places or hard enough.

For some folks, their mood might go down and they  might become hard to please or burned out, but in many cases that might be their problem not the market's.


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## Russ (Dec 18, 2016)

Chessie said:


> Her work is boring. WHY!?!? It's because *the greater powers that be*, those in charge of everything writing and literature, say:
> 
> -don't use contractions
> -don't use adverbs
> ...



I think blaming these alleged "rules" for one's discontent with mainstream fiction is missing the mark.

I was at a panel with top editors and agents last July and the number one thing they were looking for was unique voices.  Number one.

And if minor house editing differences like the use of italics and ellipses makes you despair about the modern market...you _are_ in trouble.

Comparing an absolute classic like Uncle Tom's Cabin (as others have pointed out) to the general market these days is simply an unreasonable comparison.  There is great voice and originality out there.  Have you read Mieville?  Iles?  Hopkinson?  Schrader?


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## Chessie (Dec 18, 2016)

Yes, that's what they say, that they want unique voices, but then they ask you to rewrite your story X number of times to fit _their_ tastes and _their_ needs. We'll always disagree about this, Russ, and that's totally ok.

But where did I compare Uncle Tom's Cabin to contemporary fiction? Because all I said about it was that I had downloaded it on my Kindle.


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## Russ (Dec 18, 2016)

Chessie said:


> Yes, that's what they say, that they want unique voices, but then they ask you to rewrite your story X number of times to fit _their_ tastes and _their_ needs. We'll always disagree about this, Russ, and that's totally ok.



Is that what editors at traditional houses have been asking you to do?  Really?



> But where did I compare Uncle Tom's Cabin to contemporary fiction? Because all I said about it was that I had downloaded it on my Kindle.



Actually you went a tad further than that.  You suggested that older stories might be better stories because they use eclipses and contractions or some such.  My argument (already expressed by others) is that you cannot compare the gems that have survived for a century or so, with the average book of today.

The truth is that there is more variety available among fiction today than perhaps ever before IN HISTORY.  Sure there are people who write formulaically and some markets want that kind of material.  There are more books being published by women, people of colour, LBGT authors, and about more diverse subjects the fiction field than at any other time.  How people can say that there is not variety available out there is completely beyond me.


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## skip.knox (Dec 18, 2016)

First, let's try to veer away from _ad hominem_ conversations. Those rarely are edifying for the rest of us.

>How people can say that there is not variety available out there is completely beyond me. 

And yet they say it. Many people say it, in many different areas, not just for fiction. Are they all dunderheads? I prefer to think they are not.

I think we must begin with granting the validity of people's own experience, rather than saying they are not trying hard enough. I find it difficult to discover great new authors, too. So, in fact, do agents. If 70% of everything published is cr*p, imagine what those poor slush pile readers experience.

It would be great if somehow we could find the gems without having to dig through the dirt. Here, too, I believe we have it better than did our forebears. One challenge in finding "good" books is in agreeing upon what constitutes "good". In the past, all we had were a handful of critics in New York and London to tell us that. Now we have communities.

To Miskatonic and others, I suggest investing some time in Goodreads or similar service. I know there are others, but Goodreads is the one to which I belong, so I know how it works. There are hundreds of communities there. You will have to invest some time, joining each in turn, until you find one or more that suits you. You can even start your own. Jaded Fantasy Readers!  Once you find a community of like-minded people, *their* recommendations can steer you far better than can strolling down the halls of Amazon.

In towns larger than mine (which is most of America), try joining a book club. Really, all you're after is a handful of fellow travelers. Once you discover them, you have gold. After all, who cares what is good in modern literature? What matters is what in modern literature you enjoy. All the rest can join the pile of the Vast Unread.


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## Chessie (Dec 18, 2016)

Actually, Russ, I agree with you 100% about modern fiction having more diverse ideas. 

What I referred to in my response was author voice, and how, in my opinion--because that's all that it is--an opinion--is that author voice in modern fiction has grown bland. Just my 2 cents but if you have some suggestion on books we can all investigate that are strong in author voice, by all means share the list with us.


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## Miskatonic (Dec 18, 2016)

Russ said:


> There are more books being published by women, people of colour, LBGT authors, and about more diverse subjects the fiction field than at any other time.  How people can say that there is not variety available out there is completely beyond me.



Nothing of what you've mentioned here is a guarantee of quality. There is a wide variety of mediocrity. That's for certain.


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## Russ (Dec 19, 2016)

Russ said:


> Is that what editors at traditional houses have been asking you to do?  Really?



Actually this was far too harsh on my part and I apologize for that.  

My concern about your comment could have been far better articulated.  Chess said this:



> Yes, that's what they say, that they want unique voices, but then they ask you to rewrite your story X number of times to fit their tastes and their needs. We'll always disagree about this, Russ, and that's totally ok



To me this factually runs contra to what has been going on in traditional publishing for at least 10-15 years.  IF you had told me this thirty years ago I might have been able to buy into it, but today I can't.

The thing I consistently hear from authors, editors and agents and have been hearing for over a decade now is that traditional publishers are not offering nearly enough editorial guidance and development for their newer authors.  Editors are overworked and the truth is that most of them do not have time to work with authors to make them better.  With the advent of the word processor and e mail submissions they are drowning in submissions and their business model no longer seems to include finding talented new writers and working with them through their growing pains until they are good enough to be profitable.  They now expect manuscripts to be very close to publishable when they arrive.  There is a lot more pressure on the first time author to produce close to publisher work than there was years ago.  Many very experienced writers also are not getting as much editorial input and guidance as they want.

While there may be some small publishers who are helping writers develop here and there, the current reality is that people are not at all being asked to write and re-write their manuscripts, they are being asked to deliver virtually ready to publish works up front.


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## Russ (Dec 19, 2016)

Miskatonic said:


> Nothing of what you've mentioned here is a guarantee of quality. There is a wide variety of mediocrity. That's for certain.



There is ALWAYS a large degree of mediocrity. 

 However, from a high level point of view, I believe that the inclusion of women and other traditionally excluded groups gives us access to a much larger and more unique talent pool for writing than ever before.  I see no reason to conclude that women, people of colour, etc will produce proportionately less literary genius' than any other group.


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## Russ (Dec 19, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> First, let's try to veer away from _ad hominem_ conversations. Those rarely are edifying for the rest of us.



I agree, and I took the opportunity to apologize and articulate my concern about her comments in a better fashion.  



> And yet they say it. Many people say it, in many different areas, not just for fiction. Are they all dunderheads? I prefer to think they are not.



This approach doesn't help matters at all.  This simply means then that you prefer to think that the people who say there *is*
plenty of variety out there are dunderheads.  Don't see where that gets us.




> I think we must begin with granting the validity of people's own experience, rather than saying they are not trying hard enough. I find it difficult to discover great new authors, too. So, in fact, do agents. If 70% of everything published is cr*p, imagine what those poor slush pile readers experience.



I think we need to recognize that what some people feel is not a good representation of objective reality.  The idea that just because someone experiences something that that experience have some "validity" is not just incorrect, but downright intellectual abdication and dangerous.


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## skip.knox (Dec 19, 2016)

>I think we need to recognize that what some people feel is not a good representation of objective reality

We have a fundamental divergence in how we perceive good. I won't try to dissuade anyone on this point, but I'll make reference to _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_ for an excellent exploration of what "quality" means (the author was speaking specifically about quality as an aspect of writing).


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## Russ (Dec 20, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> >I think we need to recognize that what some people feel is not a good representation of objective reality
> 
> We have a fundamental divergence in how we perceive good. I won't try to dissuade anyone on this point, but I'll make reference to _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_ for an excellent exploration of what "quality" means (the author was speaking specifically about quality as an aspect of writing).




Great book.  Quite enjoyed about 30 years ago.

Funny coincidence, I was watching a movie the other night and they used the term "dunderheads."  Had not heard it in years.


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## Chessie (Dec 20, 2016)

Tastes are a very individual thing. But what about quality? There's a standard for books in a genre and just because I polish my manuscript, have it edited by a professional, give it a genre appropriate cover that costs a pretty penny, spend weeks to months on a sharp blurb, doesn't mean that my book will be "quality" with all the others in its genre niche. Why? Because even though I'm not an amateur writer, I'm an amateur publisher, and my shit is going to stink for a bit until I get the hang of publishing.

So I see this discussion in that light: quality and standards in genres definitely exist but it's the readers who choose depending on taste. The OPs tastes are not being satiated by the current products on the market. They are separate discussions entirely.


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## Miskatonic (Dec 22, 2016)

Chessie said:


> Tastes are a very individual thing. But what about quality? There's a standard for books in a genre and just because I polish my manuscript, have it edited by a professional, give it a genre appropriate cover that costs a pretty penny, spend weeks to months on a sharp blurb, doesn't mean that my book will be "quality" with all the others in its genre niche. Why? Because even though I'm not an amateur writer, I'm an amateur publisher, and my shit is going to stink for a bit until I get the hang of publishing.
> 
> So I see this discussion in that light: quality and standards in genres definitely exist but it's the readers who choose depending on taste. The OPs tastes are not being satiated by the current products on the market. They are separate discussions entirely.



Thank you.


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## Ronald T. (Dec 22, 2016)

Miskatonic said:


> I haven't been around for awhile (not that I expected my absence to be noticed ), and mainly because I am just bored to death with pretty much all contemporary fantasy and Sci-Fi. Thus my motivation/inspiration to write has been waning. I just see all that is offered up today as cookie cutter and streamlined for mass consumption. Doesn't matter what format it takes, or what country produces it. It's just the copycat syndrome taken to the extreme. Or it's reboot after reboot. Just one gigantic void that sucks the life and soul out of creativity.
> 
> Just sick of all of it.
> 
> /End of rant



Sounds like it's time for you to move to a different genre for a few weeks or months.  I suppose too much of anything can become tiresome.  Clearly, you've consumed too much SFF at this point, and you've lost the excitement you used to feel.

Abandon SFF for a month, six months, a year.  Read something completely different without so much as looking at fantasy or science fiction.  When you return to these two genres that seem to bore you now, perhaps you will once again discover what you liked about them originally.

I hope you can eliminate your distaste for the kind of stories I love so much, the stories that you probably used to love, as well.

Good Luck!


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## Miskatonic (Dec 23, 2016)

I'm reading more non-fiction in terms of history, philosophy, biographies, etc. In terms of story ideas I find those far more useful.


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## FifthView (Dec 23, 2016)

Miskatonic said:


> I'm reading more non-fiction in terms of history, philosophy, biographies, etc. In terms of story ideas I find those far more useful.



I've always been interested in archeology, and lately I'm reading more in that field and watching various documentaries about ancient cultures. The more I do, the more I want to create fantasy worlds inspired by early historic or pre-historic civilizations.  So much has been lost, and yet what we do learn suggests complex, vibrant cultures and civilizations from that time period.

We've been discussing elsewhere the importance of learning how to be a storyteller rather than just how to write clear and/or pretty prose.  I'd say that being observant of and learning more about human behavior, history, and so forth are at least as important as learning the various techniques involved in telling stories.


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## Chessie (Dec 23, 2016)

FifthView said:


> I've always been interested in archeology, and lately I'm reading more in that field and watching various documentaries about ancient cultures. The more I do, the more I want to create fantasy worlds inspired by early historic or pre-historic civilizations.  So much has been lost, and yet what we do learn suggests complex, vibrant cultures and civilizations from that time period.
> 
> We've been discussing elsewhere the importance of learning how to be a storyteller rather than just how to write clear and/or pretty prose.  I'd say that being observant of and learning more about human behavior, history, and so forth are at least as important as learning the various techniques involved in telling stories.



Absolutely. Ultimately, the more we learn, the better stories we'll tell. Oh, oh! May I give an example?? 

So, ever since I can remember, I've had a fascination with everything vintage. Movies, books, the fashion...everything. I've watched a ton of vintage era movies and have read bios of many movie stars from that time. I was able to use this knowledge, which by all means is completely pointless and meaningless in the world, to write a scene for my WIP. The heroes are discussing a movie they've seen and the actor's other performances, and I was able to write an entire scene just off this cinema history I have in the back  of my head. It gave the scene life and I got to nerd it up about how much I love Gene Tierney.

All of this information comes in handy at some point!


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 23, 2016)

Chessie said:


> Absolutely. Ultimately, the more we learn, the better stories we'll tell. Oh, oh! May I give an example??
> 
> So, ever since I can remember, I've had a fascination with everything vintage. Movies, books, the fashion...everything. I've watched a ton of vintage era movies and have read bios of many movie stars from that time. I was able to use this knowledge, which by all means is completely pointless and meaningless in the world, to write a scene for my WIP. The heroes are discussing a movie they've seen and the actor's other performances, and I was able to write an entire scene just off this cinema history I have in the back  of my head. It gave the scene life and I got to nerd it up about how much I love Gene Tierney.
> 
> All of this information comes in handy at some point!



That's really cool  

My own example: so when I was like 9-10 I had this huge Lewis and Clark obsession. Huge. (It's a great adventure story, still.) I read Undaunted Courage (by Stephen E. Ambrose) when I was 9. Idk how much I comprehended...but still it was no joke. 

Now this huge pointless reservoir of knowledge I have in my head is paying off as I'm writing a story about an expedition into the unknown in a world based on colonial America. But, you know, there are dragons.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 23, 2016)

I was going to reply to this thread but everything exploded and I'm confused.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 23, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I was going to reply to this thread but everything exploded and I'm confused.



Se a vida Ã©


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## Devor (Dec 23, 2016)

There's a lot happening in this thread.  And I'm not well-read enough to respond properly to everything.  But I have a few things I'd like to add.

The first is that I think we sometimes see too much embedded in the word "fantasy," and that we could take a broader view of it.  It's not all dwarves, schooling wizards, and grimdark, although I appreciate the flagship stories for each one of those categories.  This is one of the reasons I'm excited about our reading group and reading quest series.  I think most writers could benefit from seeing the wider genre instead of the narrower angles of it.

The second thing I want to say, I read the OP and thought it was truer for movies than for books.  It's probably truer for commercial, "popular," found-in-Walmart books than it is in the deeper shelves of a good bookstore or the hidden archives of Amazon.  But those are deeper waters, harder to navigate, riskier to spend money or time on.  I know that I often feel intimidated by books with fewer reviews or smaller niches, and have no idea what's worth my attention when I feel like there are so many other, more common, more spoken about books that I know I would benefit from reading.  Maybe everyone doesn't feel that way, but as a reader I often feel like I _want_ a gatekeeper, and can't find one I trust.

Third, the industry has been changing in a lot of more subtle ways that many people don't realize because we're distracted by the big and obvious ones.  As Russ said, industries are spending much less time on developmental editing.  When Napster was still killing the music industry, an executive told me flatly, at a business school event, that the "industry" would be fine, but they weren't going to be developing new artists.  "In ten years you'll still be downloading music, and we'll still be making money, but you won't even realize the music will just be crap."  In the long run that didn't last long with music because of the iPod.  But I'm not surprised if we're going through a bit of it now in publishing, especially as book stores have been closing.  Basically, the thinking goes, instead of investing heavily in big names, the idea is that they would spread the risks among a larger number of smaller names to hold up as a "billboard" against the hoards of weak talent.

Finally, it takes one person to write a novel.  Compared to, for instance, a movie or a television show, it's a much smaller investment on an industry level.  It's a lot easier to take risks and do something "out there" with a novel than it is with a movie.  You've got to do what's right for you, but I personally would encourage writers generally to embrace risk taking with their stories.


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## skip.knox (Dec 23, 2016)

Hey Miskatonic, and anyone else who might be interested, I just stumbled across this site
Best Fantasy Books | #1 Guide to the best fantasy books, games, movies, and more! | BestFantasyBooks.com 

Their About section says the site's been around since 2005. Has some great lists, so if you're looking for fantasy, it'd be a place to start.


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## Devor (Dec 23, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> Hey Miskatonic, and anyone else who might be interested, I just stumbled across this site
> Best Fantasy Books | #1 Guide to the best fantasy books, games, movies, and more! | BestFantasyBooks.com
> 
> Their About section says the site's been around since 2005. Has some great lists, so if you're looking for fantasy, it'd be a place to start.



I saw that site and to me it was full of red flags, such as reviews that don't credit the reviewer.  I kind of see it as just an elaborate sales page.

Fantasy Book Review: Reviews, interviews, biographies

^ This one gets high marks from me.  I had even emailed them this week about helping with book recommendations for the book club.


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## skip.knox (Dec 23, 2016)

Hm. I saw it as the work of a single individual. Most of the entries are written in first person and the voice is the same in all. There's a great deal of personal opinion in there, but the lists themselves, taken all together, provide a pretty good launching pad.

Just took a quick look at the site you cite (I love doing that, especially if I can work "sight" into the sentence too). Looks promising and I'll delve deeper. Really, there's no excuse for wondering what to read!


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## AnonymousNobody (Jan 19, 2017)

Chessie said:


> Those books have some interesting voices, so very distinct from one another, and I love it. Some make me feel uncomfortable. Some make me feel cozy. Others I'm not so sure of. The point being that they make me feel something.
> 
> Modern literature is bland for the most part.... The older books have much better storytelling voices that actually keep me engaged. When I download a book on my Kindle by a modern author, I yawn. There's one romance author who is selling like hotcakes in trad pub and her name is all over the historical romance genre I have my eye on. Her work is boring. WHY!?!? It's because the greater powers that be, those in charge of everything writing and literature, say:
> 
> ...



-don't use morals (either kind) ...

THIS!!! ALL OF THIS!!! (Pardon my caps!)

There is very little that gets under my skin, as reading mags or sites for writers, by "pros," and every one has their own idea "how to write" or "how NOT to write". And then the article sometimes closes with an excerpt from the work of this AWARD WINNING, BEST SELLING author. And I skim it. And I'm staring blankly. And I'm thinking... "What the freaking $*%R&?! ... Do people actually READ this?!! How can you even take this seriously?!!"

I can't do it. Almost every time I see anything that came from a modern book, I am just dumbstruck. It looks like a submission to a prose contest. It looks like a grammar assignment. It looks like somebody smoked too much weed on a starry night. Or maybe they got confused and smoked their socks instead. I don't know WHAT they ingested! All I know is I could not take it seriously enough to get past the author, enough to actually make meaningful contact with the story that they're supposed to be telling. (And if I could, it'd be a smut scene a minute, after the prosy intro, and the book would be in the trash can before chapter three.) And these are the folks who are going to tell me to cut out this, and don't use those, and so on? Are you kidding me?! If anything, I should write down what they say NOT to do, and make sure to do it, because I certainly don't want my stuff to end up reading anything like theirs!

Rewind to old books? Ahhh... a breath of fresh air! As you said, each has their own voice, most of them are at least charming stories, they've got personality, and many of the characters actually have personality! And best of all, in my opinion, they do not rely on smut and violence to keep me reading. They assume I have a working brain, and can deal with words, and ideas and stuff, and that THAT will be interesting to me. And they're right, mostly. (The working brain, maybe not always so much so... -grin-)

But like you said... I think that's gone now. People get it beaten into their heads that you may not write as your gut tells you to write. Period. But if they had to live up to today's standards, I think very few old classics would be here right now. Jules Verne, in particular, would have been toast! The editorial swearing would have been as long as the scientific explanations in the manuscripts were. (And some of those were even longer than many translations allowed them to be!) And yet the "pros" whose books I cannot stomach, are the experts. Fine. They can keep their expertise. I'll keep Captain Nemo. (And I know which of us will have gotten the better deal.) I'm going to write according to my ear for it, not compete for a prose prize.

But I agree the content has gone down hill just as much as the narrative has. It really does seem like across the whole spectrum of fiction (books, games, movies, series...) it really is just one continuous re-hash of the same old, same old, same old...


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## Russ (Jan 20, 2017)

It is a pity you are missing out on all the amazing, unique, quality fiction that is being written these days.


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