# Damsels in distress?



## Ireth (Nov 12, 2013)

I'm finally getting back to work on _Winter's Queen_, and I have a question about my use of the Damsel in Distress trope. For the most part I've done my best to subvert it by having the MC, Ariel, do all she can to save herself when she gets into trouble time and again, and she lampshades her defiance as well: "None of this damsel-in-distress nonsense." Unfortunately, the climax of the story involves her getting into trouble she cannot escape on her own (and is in no emotional state to try), thereby playing the trope straight. I can post examples if anyone needs specifics. Is that a bad thing, or am I worrying too much about a minor issue?


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## buyjupiter (Nov 12, 2013)

I don't think from what you've said that you are doing it straight. Just because a woman can't get out of a situation without help doesn't make her a "damsel in distress". I think if you make it happen to her all the time, have her be really passive about everything, and add some fainting in...then you approach the trope.

So, if you're trying to avoid this trope, ensure that she has an active role in her life. Have her doing something, even if it's the wrong thing, rather than nothing when she gets into trouble.

I hope that helps some.


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## A. E. Lowan (Nov 12, 2013)

Honestly, you have a character in need of rescue, and if she's actively working to get herself out, I don't see how her plumbing makes any difference in how she's viewed - but I know there are people to will make an issue out of it just as kneejerk reactions to her being female.  Depending on how you break her at the end, rendering her "in no emotional state to try" to assist in her own rescue (meaning is she traumatized into submission/insanity or does she just toss up her hands and give up), I don't have any issues with it.  Personally, we employ both distressing damsels and damsels in distress - though I may admit to putting more male characters into the "damsel" position than female, probably.  (I haven't done a head count or anything.)

My advice - stop overthinking things and write.  You've got a great concept.  The truth is in the execution.


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## glutton (Nov 12, 2013)

I'd likely be a little disappointed in an MC male or female who doesn't at least have some role in getting out of the trouble they're in at the climax (especially the climax). It would probably be less harmful if the character was broken in an incident earlier in the story, had to be saved, and then grew from the experience, but for them to be broken and wait passively to be rescued at the end of the story, eh, I might end up identifying with their rescuer(s) as the 'real' MC depending on how developed they are.

A related example would be that in one of my WIP novels, the female MC gets her ass kicked by an antagonist, thrown in jail, and is unable to escape and then rescued by her sidekick who passes her a lockpick. This happens early in the story though and she's back to being her butt-kicking self shortly afterwards, I think it would come off a little lame if the story ended with her being thrown the lockpick...

I suppose it might be easier to swallow if the MC isn't portrayed as strong or resourceful throughout the story though, less expectations to disappoint.

Also the trying vs. not trying part is a big part of it, if I saw a story where a hero is fighting a losing battle against the big villain at the end but still desperately trying to win - maybe thinking to sacrifice themselves to stop the bad guy - when their allies show to help them that would seem fine, if the hero lies down and gives up right before the allies arrive, that would make the hero seem lame in my view and make for a less than satisfying ending.

Take all that with a grain of salt I guess since I tend to only write uber badasses lol.


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## Svrtnsse (Nov 12, 2013)

Maybe you could get some interesting effects by playing up the how Ariel isn't capable of taking care of herself in this specific situation.
If she's been shown to be capable throughout the book it may lend some gravity to her situation if she's in some way incapable at the end.


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## NellaFantasia (Nov 12, 2013)

We all need help at some point in our lives. Accepting that help now and then doesn't make her a damsel in distress. It makes her a human being, and that's what you want to aim for when writing characters.


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## glutton (Nov 12, 2013)

I'm more worried about the lack of trying at the end than the needing of help itself. Plenty of heroes need help, not trying at the end and closing out the story that way makes for a less than inspiring conclusion/MC. Granted maybe it/she's not meant/doesn't need to be inspiring...

Relating to the 'end' thing, I'd be less likely to react negatively to the character's non-trying if I knew the story was part of a series and figured she would redeem herself later, as opposed to her story completely ending on the 'non-trying' note.


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## wordwalker (Nov 12, 2013)

Don't forget the lessons of Sophia MacDougall: you can get so afraid of a heroine having weak moments that you don't let her be, well, her.


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## glutton (Nov 12, 2013)

I guess the real question for me isn't about 'damsels in distress' but how important being inspiring is, because a male main character who doesn't try in the climax of his own story would be uninspiring too. If he's set up as the hero only for his supporting character to rescue him with no effort to help from him, I might be tempted to consider the other character to have usurped his MC status (that might be going a bit far, but it's possible depending on how much the supporting character was developed, and even if they aren't that developed I might think something like 'I thought ___ was the hero? I guess ___ really is...') If anything I'd expect an MC's moments of weakness to be during the story, but it being at the very end would tend to make me feel like it's a disappointing or 'downer' ending.

I guess if you don't mind it coming off as a downer ending then it's perfectly fine.

I'm also working under the assumption that the MC is someone the reader is supposed to cheer and root for, if on the other hand they're overly arrogant and their complete helplessness is used to serve them a slice of humble pie, I could see this ending working well.


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## Feo Takahari (Nov 12, 2013)

If I may compare my own writing, the main character of one of my stories is the weakest character in it who has any combat skills at all. She can't defeat the villain, because none of her weapons can harm him. But in the final battle, she doesn't just stand there--she's the one who marks the target for the other characters to fire on.

Ariel may be in distress, but that doesn't mean she can't do anything. Find a role for her to fill, and show why she's the character you chose to write about.

(I was going to write about what I dislike about the damsel in distress, but I was assuming she was a love interest. I've only seen one used as a protagonist once, and that was in a story that seriously messed with archetypes.)


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## Ireth (Nov 12, 2013)

buyjupiter said:


> I don't think from what you've said that you are doing it straight. Just because a woman can't get out of a situation without help doesn't make her a "damsel in distress". I think if you make it happen to her all the time, have her be really passive about everything, and add some fainting in...then you approach the trope.
> 
> So, if you're trying to avoid this trope, ensure that she has an active role in her life. Have her doing something, even if it's the wrong thing, rather than nothing when she gets into trouble.
> 
> I hope that helps some.





A. E. Lowan said:


> Honestly, you have a character in need of rescue, and if she's actively working to get herself out, I don't see how her plumbing makes any difference in how she's viewed - but I know there are people to will make an issue out of it just as kneejerk reactions to her being female.  Depending on how you break her at the end, rendering her "in no emotional state to try" to assist in her own rescue (meaning is she traumatized into submission/insanity or does she just toss up her hands and give up), I don't have any issues with it.  Personally, we employ both distressing damsels and damsels in distress - though I may admit to putting more male characters into the "damsel" position than female, probably.  (I haven't done a head count or anything.)
> 
> My advice - stop overthinking things and write.  You've got a great concept.  The truth is in the execution.





glutton said:


> I'd likely be a little disappointed in an MC male or female who doesn't at least have some role in getting out of the trouble they're in at the climax (especially the climax). It would probably be less harmful if the character was broken in an incident earlier in the story, had to be saved, and then grew from the experience, but for them to be broken and wait passively to be rescued at the end of the story, eh, I might end up identifying with their rescuer(s) as the 'real' MC depending on how developed they are.
> 
> A related example would be that in one of my WIP novels, the female MC gets her ass kicked by an antagonist, thrown in jail, and is unable to escape and then rescued by her sidekick who passes her a lockpick. This happens early in the story though and she's back to being her butt-kicking self shortly afterwards, I think it would come off a little lame if the story ended with her being thrown the lockpick...
> 
> ...





Svrtnsse said:


> Maybe you could get some interesting effects by playing up the how Ariel isn't capable of taking care of herself in this specific situation.
> If she's been shown to be capable throughout the book it may lend some gravity to her situation if she's in some way incapable at the end.





glutton said:


> I'm more worried about the lack of trying at the end than the needing of help itself. Plenty of heroes need help, not trying at the end and closing out the story that way makes for a less than inspiring conclusion/MC. Granted maybe it/she's not meant/doesn't need to be inspiring...
> 
> Relating to the 'end' thing, I'd be less likely to react negatively to the character's non-trying if I knew the story was part of a series and figured she would redeem herself later, as opposed to her story completely ending on the 'non-trying' note.





glutton said:


> I guess the real question for me isn't about 'damsels in distress' but how important being inspiring is, because a male main character who doesn't try in the climax of his own story would be uninspiring too. If he's set up as the hero only for his supporting character to rescue him with no effort to help from him, I might be tempted to consider the other character to have usurped his MC status (that might be going a bit far, but it's possible depending on how much the supporting character was developed, and even if they aren't that developed I might think something like 'I thought ___ was the hero? I guess ___ really is...') If anything I'd expect an MC's moments of weakness to be during the story, but it being at the very end would tend to make me feel like it's a disappointing or 'downer' ending.
> 
> I guess if you don't mind it coming off as a downer ending then it's perfectly fine.
> 
> I'm also working under the assumption that the MC is someone the reader is supposed to cheer and root for, if on the other hand they're overly arrogant and their complete helplessness is used to serve them a slice of humble pie, I could see this ending working well.





Feo Takahari said:


> If I may compare my own writing, the main character of one of my stories is the weakest character in it who has any combat skills at all. She can't defeat the villain, because none of her weapons can harm him. But in the final battle, she doesn't just stand there--she's the one who marks the target for the other characters to fire on.
> 
> Ariel may be in distress, but that doesn't mean she can't do anything. Find a role for her to fill, and show why she's the character you chose to write about.



Ariel's gender is not the issue at all, it's her action or lack of it. Her entire plotline, from the moment she realizes what's going on, is a cycle of "plan escape, attempt escape, fail, make new plan." Lather, rinse, repeat. The events of the climax change things significantly. What's under the tag below is a bit long and dense, but please do read it.



Spoiler: the climax



At the climax of the story, Ariel is dragged off to her wedding, which has been bumped up so as to be several weeks earlier than the original date, since Prince Fiachra has been growing increasingly impatient with Ariel's constant escape attempts. Before they get there, Ariel confronts Fiachra and calls him out on all his BS, also coming to the realization that Fiachra plans to kill his father and become King once the wedding is done. Fiachra, not knowing she's figured him out, decides to beat her into submission, reasoning that she'll still be of use to him as long as her womb is intact and she can bear his children. Ariel fights back and maims him, and his father, King Madoc, arrives a moment later and assumes she's tried to murder him. Ariel insists that it was self-defense, and tells him of Fiachra's plan to usurp him. Madoc doesn't believe her, and drags her off to be imprisoned pending her punishment. She is told that if Fiachra survives, Madoc may consider lessening her sentence to less than a death penalty. If Fiachra dies, however, or if Ariel attempts to escape again, the penalty will remain "death by execution".

I'm currently in the process of reworking the scene, and wondering whether to add in another escape attempt on Ariel's part before she is locked up. In the original scene, she is taken directly to her cell after maiming the prince; in the revised version, she is taken to the infirmary first, by order of the queen (who doesn't show up at all in the original version aside from the odd mention; her appearance at the climax is treated as a hope spot for Ariel that maybe the queen can change things around in her favor) and her escape attempt would be from there. It would end with Madoc catching her and dragging her off to the cell whether the healer was finished with her or not. Either way, by the time Ariel reaches her cell and is locked in (with no handy window to escape from like the last time), she's physically and emotionally exhausted, terrified for her life, and she hasn't got a clue that help is coming, in the form of her father and uncle, who have been on their way to find her since the day after she was taken (the interim being taken up by planning and packing). The only person who's in a position to tell her that is currently bringing both men through Faerie to King Madoc's castle, and has no way to communicate with Ariel. I'd say that counts as "in no fit state to try escaping again", personally. By the time she's being taken out to her execution, she's resolved to face death with dignity, since she knows fighting now won't help her survive.

Once her family shows up and she regains some hope that she can get out of this mess alive, that's another matter. Though that in itself is a sticky situation. It's a lot of interpersonal issues coming to light at the same time, and basically a five-way tug-of-war with Ariel as the rope.


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## Svrtnsse (Nov 12, 2013)

I read the "spoiler" I'm fine with how you've planned it. It does not feel like a "damsel in distress" kind of thing.


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## glutton (Nov 12, 2013)

That doesn't really sound like a damsel in distress situation at all...


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## BWFoster78 (Nov 12, 2013)

Do her escape attempts fail because she's inept or because the odds against her are too great?

A character that struggles against great odds, keeping up even when all appears lost, is not weak.  There is no shame in facing a stronger foe.


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## glutton (Nov 12, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Do her escape attempts fail because she's inept or because the odds against her are too great?



Even if she failed because she was inept it wouldn't make her a damsel in distress... I'd tend to give her a pass on the DiD label just for getting the better of the main bad guy in their personal encounter.

I'm inclined to hate Madoc now though, I kind of want to see his evil son kill him lol.


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## Ireth (Nov 12, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Do her escape attempts fail because she's inept or because the odds against her are too great?
> 
> A character that struggles against great odds, keeping up even when all appears lost, is not weak.  There is no shame in facing a stronger foe.



I'd say it's because of the odds being against her, not her ineptitude (though she is physically weaker than her opponents, she being human and they being Fae). Here's a quick rundown of her attempts:

1.a) Plan/Attempt - steal weapons and food, sneak out of the castle in the dead of night
1.b) Fail - Fiachra catches her and locks her away for a few days as punishment
2.a) New plan/attempt - chip away pointy icicles jutting out from cell wall, climb them and escape via window, flee into the woods
2.b) Fail - royal guards catch wind of her escape and ride out to recapture her, bring her back to the castle; Fiachra moves the wedding date to the next day


Spoiler: climax



3.a) New plan/attempt - give reasons for wedding to be called off, fight back when Fiachra hurts her
3.b) Fail - wounding Fiachra results in imprisonment, death sentence
4.a) New plan/attempt - ???/face death with dignity


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## Ireth (Nov 12, 2013)

glutton said:


> Even if she failed because she was inept it wouldn't make her a damsel in distress... I'd tend to give her a pass on the DiD label just for getting the better of the main bad guy in their personal encounter.
> 
> I'm inclined to hate Madoc now though, I kind of want to see his evil son kill him lol.



Well, I'm pretty sure Fiachra would make an even worse king than his father. Madoc is ostensibly set up as the Bigger Bad to Fiachra's Big Bad, but even Ariel agrees that letting Fiachra kill him is Not Okay. She doesn't HAVE to tell Madoc that his son is plotting to kill him, but she does, even while pleading her own innocence in the face of her death sentence for supposed murder.


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## glutton (Nov 12, 2013)

Ireth said:


> Well, I'm pretty sure Fiachra would make an even worse king than his father. Madoc is ostensibly set up as the Bigger Bad to Fiachra's Big Bad, but even Ariel agrees that letting Fiachra kill him is Not Okay. She doesn't HAVE to tell Madoc that his son is plotting to kill him, but she does, even while pleading her own innocence in the face of her death sentence for supposed murder.



Spiteful thought - let Fiachra kill him, then kill Fiachra and end their line. XD


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## Ireth (Nov 12, 2013)

glutton said:


> Spiteful thought - let Fiachra kill him, then kill Fiachra and end their line. XD



Hah, not quite. There's still Fiachra's younger sister, who's on the good side, and happens to be the one bringing Ariel's father and uncle to her rescue. XD Also, even if both the king and prince were killed, there's still the queen. She might just end up claiming the throne for herself.


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## glutton (Nov 12, 2013)

Then it makes even more sense to want them both to die lol - no danger of the kingdom falling into chaos without a ruler.

I'd love to throw Madoc in a cage with an appropriately powerful savage creature... yeah working off limited knowledge of the character but still... DEATH WAITS FOR NO MAN (or fey).


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## Ireth (Nov 12, 2013)

glutton said:


> Then it makes even more sense to want them both to die lol - no danger of the kingdom falling into chaos without a ruler.



I suppose... but I'm not sure it would play out too nicely with the multi-sided conflict going on elsewhere. Fiachra is a huge part of that, so he'd naturally be at the forefront when that boils over. No chance of letting him sneak behind his father to stab him in the back or anything. Also, that'd be a hard thing for him to do anyway, given the huge crowds present at Ariel's public execution (which is thwarted, but STILL). Even if he were invisible (which is entirely possible), he'd probably raise suspicion by bumping into people or stepping on toes.



glutton said:


> I'd love to throw Madoc in a cage with an appropriately powerful savage creature... yeah working off limited knowledge of the character but still... DEATH WAITS FOR NO MAN (or fey).



Then it seems I'm doing my job well. ^^ I just hope Fiachra is characterized enough so as to deserve the same fate.


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## glutton (Nov 12, 2013)

Ireth said:


> Then it seems I'm doing my job well. ^^ I just hope Fiachra is characterized enough so as to deserve the same fate.



Hopefully although I tend to get angry more quickly at ignorant assholes than at just evil assholes for some reason - I don't have much of an impression of Fiachra yet but it comes across clearly that Madoc has no Respect for individual rights, and deserves a dose of how it feels to be powerless and learn that he himself is only mortal (or uh... 'vincible') and not so superior when it comes down to it.


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## AstralCat (Nov 12, 2013)

The only thing that makes the Damsal in Distress trope a bad thing is that it happens almost exclusively to girls, thus perpetuating the myth that women are weak and need to be protected.

However, the truth is that all of us, male and female, get in trouble. We all need someone to rescue us sometimes. And sometimes the person who rescued you will later need you to rescue them. That's just how friendship works, and it's beautiful.

So basically, it's okay for a girl to need to be rescued by her friends sometimes, just so long as she rescues her friends sometimes too. This is realistic, and not sexist. :3


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## Helen (Nov 12, 2013)

Ireth said:


> I'm finally getting back to work on _Winter's Queen_, and I have a question about my use of the Damsel in Distress trope. For the most part I've done my best to subvert it by having the MC, Ariel, do all she can to save herself when she gets into trouble time and again, and she lampshades her defiance as well: "None of this damsel-in-distress nonsense." Unfortunately, the climax of the story involves her getting into trouble she cannot escape on her own (and is in no emotional state to try), thereby playing the trope straight. I can post examples if anyone needs specifics. Is that a bad thing, or am I worrying too much about a minor issue?



I reckon this topic has been doing the rounds because of August / Mazin podcast 116. 

What was funny, was that they said they were using it themselves in their WIP!

There are solid story reason why it's used.

I reckon it's like everything else - you just have to do it in a new and interesting way.

For sure, you'll see it many, many times in successful films and stories of the future.


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## Ireth (Nov 12, 2013)

glutton said:


> Hopefully although I tend to get angry more quickly at ignorant assholes than at just evil assholes for some reason - I don't have much of an impression of Fiachra yet but it comes across clearly that Madoc has no Respect for individual rights, and deserves a dose of how it feels to be powerless and learn that he himself is only mortal (or uh... 'vincible') and not so superior when it comes down to it.



Oh, yes, that is spot on. As for Fiachra, he deserves to be knocked down a peg or three too. He's arrogant, domineering, abusive, ambitious to a fault, and just generally insufferable as a person. He puts up fronts, of course, but his first meeting with Ariel left a heck of an impression (on both of them - literally in Fiachra's case), so she knows when he's BS-ing and won't stand for it.


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## Ireth (Nov 12, 2013)

AstralCat said:


> The only thing that makes the Damsal in Distress trope a bad thing is that it happens almost exclusively to girls, thus perpetuating the myth that women are weak and need to be protected.
> 
> However, the truth is that all of us, male and female, get in trouble. We all need someone to rescue us sometimes. And sometimes the person who rescued you will later need you to rescue them. That's just how friendship works, and it's beautiful.
> 
> So basically, it's okay for a girl to need to be rescued by her friends sometimes, just so long as she rescues her friends sometimes too. This is realistic, and not sexist. :3



Hello Astralcat, and thanks for your opinion.  I think I should state that Ariel's father and uncle face their own share of tough times as they trek through Faerie, but for the most part they have each others' backs. At one point they're both in trouble, and Fiachra's sister Meabh has to help them both. Unfortunately they don't get the chance to reciprocate, unless I decide I want to finish the sequel. I'm not sure though; Winter's Queen works well as a stand-alone.


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## glutton (Nov 12, 2013)

BTW, who does the title refer to?


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## Ireth (Nov 12, 2013)

glutton said:


> BTW, who does the title refer to?



It refers to Ariel, or rather, what she would be if Fiachra's plans succeeded. Marrying him while he's a prince would make her a princess, but if Fiachra became king, Ariel would be the queen of the Winter Court - i.e. Winter's Queen.


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## glutton (Nov 12, 2013)

Ireth said:


> It refers to Ariel, or rather, what she would be if Fiachra's plans succeeded. Marrying him while he's a prince would make her a princess, but if Fiachra became king, Ariel would be the queen of the Winter Court - i.e. Winter's Queen.



Ah. The name made me imagine someone very cold, icy, emotionless etc. lol.


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## Ireth (Nov 12, 2013)

glutton said:


> Ah. The name made me imagine someone very cold, icy, emotionless etc. lol.



Yeah, that's about the opposite of Ariel. XD She's warm and full of emotion. ^^ The only reasons she's the one Fiachra chooses for a bride are because a) he thinks she's hot and can bear him pretty children, and b) she believes in his kind in a time when most others don't, that being the 21st century.


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## senseiseth (Nov 12, 2013)

Hey Ireth, 

I think there isn't a problem with someone getting into a situation where they can't get out. If she's been able to get out before, and is finally hit the end of her rope and just can't go on. We're all human and humans have their limits that can come at the worst possible moment. 

And having her hit hat point at the climax can be a very poignant event in the character's development. But this also depends on how she handles the situation too. I mean, her resigning to her fate and not doing anything at all is one thing, but having a friend arrive and help her escape is entirely different. And for perspective other heroes have had to have help getting their rear ends bailed out of a few fires. 

Sir Launcelot needed to be bailed from prison at least once, though I want to say twice in Le Morte D'Arthur. 

Batman has needed to get help when he's gotten the jump made on him. 

Luke, Wolverine, and lot of guys have been in the rut, but it's the climb back and the conquering of their problems that make them better, superior, and dare I say Hella-Kickass-icus (no offense to anyone with Latin/Roman/Italian heritage, seriously, wasn't trying to be a jerk here.)


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## Ireth (Nov 12, 2013)

senseiseth said:


> But this also depends on how she handles the situation too. I mean, her resigning to her fate and not doing anything at all is one thing, but having a friend arrive and help her escape is entirely different.



That's true, but ultimately they both happen. First Ariel resigns herself to her fate, and when she thinks all hope is lost, help arrives literally at the last possible second to save her neck. From the beginning she has a vague hope that the help will come at some point, but that was before the villain went and moved the goalposts, so to speak. Now all bets are off, and the help she's hoping for could come too late. It doesn't, of course, but there's no way Ariel can know that until the very moment.


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