# When to reject an editor's advice



## BWFoster78 (Aug 31, 2013)

Keep in mind that this is a rant.  I need to vent and appreciate the opportunity to do so 

I've always heard about those authors who think of their work as untouchable art and thought I'd never be like that.  Overall, I've learned to take criticism well.  My attitude is that I should learn everything I can from any critiques or comments.

I've found, however, that I do have lines that I will not cross.

The story is mine.  It's the reason I'm writing in the first place - to share with everyone these characters in these situations and what happens to them.  I am highly resistant to fundamental changes to character or plot.

At some point, if I change those, the story isn't mine anymore.

To a lesser extent, I also have these issues:

1. Just because an editor prefers that I change a story line or character does not necessarily mean the story will be better, especially if that editor doesn't seem to "get" what I'm trying to convey.
2. I prefer a particular type of story.  If the comments tell me to change from that type, I'm not going to like it as much.  Additionally, since I'll probably write the same type stories my entire career, it seems silly to try to write something different now.  I think it's in my best long term interests to have my debut novel herald the kind of stories I want to write, even if (if the editor is in fact correct) I could possibly make the novel more successful now by incorporating the comments.
3. The changes seem to advocate taking what I consider interesting choices and making them mundane/expected.  That does not seem to be a winning formula: hey, create what everyone else is creating.  That's how you stand out?

/rant

Thanks for reading.

Brian


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## CupofJoe (Aug 31, 2013)

Fairly measured and restrained for a rant...
But to answer the question you didn't ask...
When to reject an editor's advice?
When it's wrong... the trick is to know when that is...


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## ThinkerX (Aug 31, 2013)

Having read a fair bit of your work - or at least the posted drafts - I will make the following comment:

Much of your work does appear fairly formulaic.  You are (slavishly?) following the 'Heroes Path' and your characters follow paths not too far from the norm.  Therefor I agree...

...with you!

The last thing you need is more formulaic material.

(By the way, do the barbarian Cloak Wielding magicians appear in book 2 or book 3?)


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## Feo Takahari (Aug 31, 2013)

There are two parts to the rejection:

1): The part you're supposed to change _and the parts of the story impacted by that part_ must successfully produce the feelings you want them to produce.

2): The change must reduce the impact of those feelings.

Rejecting a change at that juncture may prevent a great story from getting even better, but it's unlikely to cause any actual flaws to stay in the story, assuming you've made good decisions as to what feelings you want to invoke.

2 is an easy one to determine. If, for instance, you're writing a doom-and-gloom story, a suggestion to add a dash of humor might break 2. 1 is much trickier, particularly the part in italics, for two reasons:

a): You may not be qualified to determine whether the part in question produces the emotion successfully. 

b): Even if that part, on its own, produces the emotion, it must be considered in context with another part. Let's take the doom-and-gloom story again--you may _need_ to have comic relief somewhere to prevent the reader from being completely overwhelmed, even if this ruins a specific moment.

As you can see, rejecting an editor's advice can be a tricky business.

Alternately, they might want you to add ninjas to your fantasy story set in southern Africa, in which case just find another editor.

Edit: I should note that I personally disagree with the idea that the stories I write are mine. Because they're all ground-up remixes of other people's ideas, I necessarily rely on the idea that those ideas can be improved, so I'm willing to take any suggestions that improve them, even if they change what I'm doing with the stories. If you're really super original, I guess this may not apply to you, though.


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## Philip Overby (Aug 31, 2013)

My thoughts on this:

To assume that you have submitted to an editor or have hired one means that you're interested in improving your story in some way. This could mean content, mechanics, or whatever. If you are sold that your position is the right one, you have two options:

a. Ignore the editor's advice and do it your way (assuming your self-publishing). I don't find ignoring editors works for traditional publishing unless you really fight for your ideas being the right ones.
b. Concede that maybe you are wrong in certain instances and take the editor's advice into consideration since you hired this person to help you.

Like any relationship, many writers may struggle with editors. Maybe they have different aesthetics, different goals, etc. Preferably, you'd want an editor that can fine tune and hone your writing to make it work better. Make your characters stand out more, take care of inconsistencies of plot or world-building. That's an editor's job. If a particular editor's vision doesn't match up with yours that may just mean you weren't meant for each other. 

Addressing these other points:



> 1. Just because an editor prefers that I change a story line or character does not necessarily mean the story will be better, especially if that editor doesn't seem to "get" what I'm trying to convey.



If the editor doesn't "get" what you're trying to convey, then you have to decide if that is you being misunderstood or a flaw with what you've written. It's ultimately up to the writer to convey his or her story. If an editor or reader doesn't get it, it's not always her fault. 

But your point is also true. Maybe the changes being suggested _won't _ make it better, but maybe they will. From knowing what you've posted on the forum, you've had several beta readers. Did your beta readers notice the same things the editor is pointing out? If so, maybe it's time to think more about what is being suggested to you.



> 2. I prefer a particular type of story. If the comments tell me to change from that type, I'm not going to like it as much. Additionally, since I'll probably write the same type stories my entire career, it seems silly to try to write something different now. I think it's in my best long term interests to have my debut novel herald the kind of stories I want to write, even if (if the editor is in fact correct) I could possibly make the novel more successful now by incorporating the comments.



This seems a tricky situation. It sounds a bit like you're set in your ways when it comes to how you want to tell stories. That is fine obviously. However, if you're asking for a beta reader or an editor's feedback, you have to bend a little when it comes to what people point out to you. Without knowing what the editor suggested and not having read the book in question, it's hard to say who I would agree with. Many writers have to make the decision if their original vision is the best one or that what the editor says to them is true and something needs more work. I think it's harder to accept that a novel needs more work if you've been working on it for a long time and are reading for publication. Writing is the patient person's game though. I wouldn't rush something or ignore good advice if you think it's going to help you in the long haul.



> 3. The changes seem to advocate taking what I consider interesting choices and making them mundane/expected. That does not seem to be a winning formula: hey, create what everyone else is creating. That's how you stand out?



Another difficult situation. I think readers do expect a certain amount of the expected in fiction. This doesn't mean that you have to follow some kind of formula to tell your story, but sometimes when a reader figures something out and it happens to be true, it gives them a sense of satisfaction. The same goes for the unexpected though. If a reader says "Wow, I didn't see that coming but it totally makes sense" you've also done a good job. So in my view, a combination of expected and unexpected developments in a story make it more interesting to me rather than just everything being unexpected. Weigh your options and see if any of the new solutions work for you. If none of them don't, then you're taking the risk of ignoring some potentially helpful advice.

I have to say having never dealt with an editor when it comes to a book, I can't say what I would do in this situation. My general feeling is that if I'm dealing with an editor whose judgment I trust, then I'm going to probably take the advice more seriously. If it's someone who I don't entirely feel comfortable with (differing philosophies, vision, etc.) then I may be more inclined to push forward with what I originally wrote. 

Tricky, very tricky. Good luck anyway!


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## Jamber (Aug 31, 2013)

Hi Brian,

I think rejecting a professional editor's advice is always risky, but so is accepting it. lol

Sometimes (just like anyone), editors can get stuck on a tack. They can get so caught up in exploring what they've perceived to be 'wrong' with a work that they get hung up on expecting you (the writer) to follow through on exactly the changes they set out. If you slavishly follow all the suggested changes you can end up with a book that doesn't work at all. This is where nodding, smiling and going away to think are handy tactics.

On the other hand, it's even more risky to declare that there _can't_ be a problem in the first place. Whatever trips an editor up will probably trip up a variety of readers, whether or not that editor's suggested fix suits you. There's an art to having an open enough mind without it being too open (in which case, as you rightly point out, the work wouldn't be yours).

For the above reasons I think you've taken the right tack overall: you've listened to the advice, you've given it some thought, and you've realised you want to do it the way you want to.

Just as a personal suggestion though, I'd be careful of using 'it wouldn't be my story' as the reason not to make a fundamental change — that argument could be used against making any kind of change at all. If you must defend something, make sure you defend it in terms of the work itself, e.g. your choices connect to theme, or they're indispensable in terms of plot or your overarching ideas.

Best wishes,
Jennie


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## Steerpike (Aug 31, 2013)

When to reject an editor's advice, or anyone else's for that matter: when you've given it due consideration and you don't agree with it


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 31, 2013)

(By the way, do the barbarian Cloak Wielding magicians appear in book 2 or book 3?) 

More like 6.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 31, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> When to reject an editor's advice, or anyone else's for that matter: when you've given it due consideration and you don't agree with it



That's probably among the best advice I've ever read.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 31, 2013)

> Just as a personal suggestion though, I'd be careful of using 'it wouldn't be my story' as the reason not to make a fundamental change — that argument could be used against making any kind of change at all.



I think this attitude is an outgrowth of my method.  I start with a character and a situation.  As I write, I learn more about both.  If I go back to the core motivation or situation and change it, it changes completely the story I want to tell.

If my goal is to tell the story in the best way possible, changing the story's core seems contrary to what I want to accomplish.

Am I making any sense?


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 31, 2013)

> Like any relationship, many writers may struggle with editors. Maybe they have different aesthetics, different goals, etc. Preferably, you'd want an editor that can fine tune and hone your writing to make it work better. Make your characters stand out more, take care of inconsistencies of plot or world-building. That's an editor's job. If a particular editor's vision doesn't match up with yours that may just mean you weren't meant for each other.



Don't misunderstand.  I'm getting a ton of good stuff out of this editor.  I'm making some hard decisions and changing structure, etc.  The story is much better, so far, now than it was when I gave it to her.

She just seems fixated on a couple of particular changes that I don't believe work, and she kinda presented the changes to me as, "you have to do this and make these hard choices."  She combined those views with some comments that made it seem like she had completely misread portions of the book, including a couple of places that were crystal clear: the characters knock out some guards where the use of a knockout potion is mentioned several times; she goes: when they killed the guards...  I'm like, "Huh?"



> But your point is also true. Maybe the changes being suggested won't  make it better, but maybe they will. From knowing what you've posted on the forum, you've had several beta readers. Did your beta readers notice the same things the editor is pointing out? If so, maybe it's time to think more about what is being suggested to you.



The beta readers didn't, but I'm not sure I can make any conclusion from that.  The editor is much better at finding things that need to be changed than my beta readers in general.



> Many writers have to make the decision if their original vision is the best one or that what the editor says to them is true and something needs more work. I think it's harder to accept that a novel needs more work if you've been working on it for a long time and are reading for publication. Writing is the patient person's game though. I wouldn't rush something or ignore good advice if you think it's going to help you in the long haul.



I think my best bet is a compromise: changing the sections she most has a problem with but not changing it in the way she suggested...

Thanks!


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## A. E. Lowan (Aug 31, 2013)

It sounds like you have hired an editor who isn't familiar with the genre.  Is that a fair conclusion to draw?


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## skip.knox (Aug 31, 2013)

I've read any number of forum discussions more or less on this topic (the relationship between editor and writer). I draw parallels with other art forms.

Painters never have to deal with this nonsense, unless they are working on spec. Painters may rework their paintings endlessly, but almost never in response to an editor's comments.

OTOH, musicians deal with this often, at least if they get into a recording studio. Both the engineer and the producer will have a say, ranging from advising on a re-take to actually manipulating the music themselves independently from the musician. 

I see writing as closer to music than to painting or sculpture. With the latter, the relationship between artist and audience is direct (so also with live music). With writing as with recorded music, though, there is an intermediary who helps the artist shape the final product. 

Perhaps it is because we invest so many, many hours into a single work that we feel so proprietary and protective of it. For myself, I try to view the editor as a partner. My challenge is not so much to accept or reject advice as it is to find a way to use it. In some cases I can, in some cases I cannot. In only rare instances does the advice cut so deep that I wrestle with the issues Brian raised.


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## Nihal (Aug 31, 2013)

FYI about painting: Only "gallery artists" have this kind of freedom. The majority of illustrators, painters and designers in general aren't gallery artists. They have editors (if it's a comic) or client or art director dictating where the work should go and unlike a writer, who can chose to not take the advice an illustrator doesn't have all this freedom. Once I've reworked the same illustration for a whole week because the art director couldn't understand that what she wanted was simply impossible. Concept art in special is closer to writing than you could ever imagine.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Aug 31, 2013)

I haven't read all the replies but I consider the choice of editor akin to the choices on beta readers. 

So my question to you Brian:
How did you select an editor?

If I'm going to have someone edit my work....I'm talking after all the beta reading & crit groups. It needs to be someone that I trust with my story. Someone that understands my vision. If I've chosen my editor well, then it would be foolish to ignore their advice.

At that point, you don't have to follow every point of advice. However, you should get some value from an editors feedback. If not, I'd question my choice. Since we're talking about content editors, I think it's important to share a vision of style and story telling.


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## Penpilot (Aug 31, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> When to reject an editor's advice, or anyone else's for that matter: when you've given it due consideration and you don't agree with it



Yep, this is my thinking too.



BWFoster78 said:


> 1. Just because an editor prefers that I change a story line or character does not necessarily mean the story will be better, especially if that editor doesn't seem to "get" what I'm trying to convey.



If the editor doesn't get what you're trying to convey, then you have to ask yourself if you're doing a good job conveying it. If you are, then ignore the editor.




BWFoster78 said:


> 2. I prefer a particular type of story.  If the comments tell me to change from that type, I'm not going to like it as much.  Additionally, since I'll probably write the same type stories my entire career, it seems silly to try to write something different now.  I think it's in my best long term interests to have my debut novel herald the kind of stories I want to write, even if (if the editor is in fact correct) I could possibly make the novel more successful now by incorporating the comments.



If a comment tells you to change a story drastically, you're going to have to decide if it's for the better or not. If not, then ignore. But one thing though, beware of getting stuck writing the same thing over. IMHO writing different things makes you a better writer and lets you find what you're really good at. Sometimes it's not what you think. If memory serves, Dan Wells says that he started writing Epic Fantasy, but got nowhere, then he tried horror and that worked out better for him. 



BWFoster78 said:


> 3. The changes seem to advocate taking what I consider interesting choices and making them mundane/expected.  That does not seem to be a winning formula: hey, create what everyone else is creating.  That's how you stand out?



When my choices are challenged, I ask myself if my choices are as interesting as I think they are. If they are, then I ask myself if I've set them up well enough. Also sometimes doing the expected can open up more interesting paths. It's like sometimes a revealed secret is better than a kept one.

Again, give criticisms due though and if you disagree, ignore them.


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## The Dark One (Aug 31, 2013)

It is said, go not to the editors for advice...for they will say both no and yes.

I have worked with numerous editors over my three published books (all published by small publishers) and I simply refuse to make fundamental structural or character changes. This is not to say I wouldn't be open to making changes on the basis of a superb suggestion - in fact, I made two pretty big changes to my latest book on the basis of suggestions from beta readers - but the instant I suspect that the editor doesn't 'get' the book then that's it. I can't work with someone who hasn't paid enough attention to my precious work to appreciate what I'm trying to convey.

Having said all that, I've been writing 20 years and am now completely relaxed in my style. I know people like what I do (not huge numbers yet) so I'm happy to continue doing that. I just want editors to point out obvious errors, repeated use of words/phrases, over-explaining and anything else that can be cut because it just isn't need.

To give an example, when my first book was accepted, it was 230k words and the publisher said: I really like it, but I'm only publishing 160k words. So the main task I had (working with two different editors) was cutting it down. Anything that departed fom the spine of the story was cut, and we got it down to 190k.

The story was much tighter, but nothing important was changed.


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## Devor (Aug 31, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> At some point, if I change those, the story isn't mine anymore.



I've only had relatively brief experiences with editors.  But they pretty much play out the same way.  Editor wants to change A to B, and if I think hard enough I can see why.  Instead of fighting for A, I change it to C and everyone's happy.

It's your story.  Make it your story.  Don't just stop working on it just because your editor's looking at it too.


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## Philip Overby (Aug 31, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I haven't read all the replies but I consider the choice of editor akin to the choices on beta readers.
> 
> So my question to you Brian:
> How did you select an editor?
> ...



I agree with this as well. Speaking generally, if you're going with a traditional publisher, you may get an idea of the kind of fiction they publish by reading their books. It may be that you bump heads with an editor more in this case. However, if you chose this editor, then you must have chosen him or her based on some type of criteria you had. 

It sounds like the experience has been positive for you for the most part, so I think you made the right choice. At the end of the day, if you're self-publishing especially, it's your choice what you put out there.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 31, 2013)

A. E. Lowan said:


> It sounds like you have hired an editor who isn't familiar with the genre.  Is that a fair conclusion to draw?



I think so.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 31, 2013)

> How did you select an editor?



Found the most qualified person I could who would do the work I wanted for what I could afford?

The important thing is that I'm learning a lot about building tension.  My writing from here forward is going to be much better from what I learned.  It's a painful process, however.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 31, 2013)

> If the editor doesn't get what you're trying to convey, then you have to ask yourself if you're doing a good job conveying it.



I think there's no question that I'm doing a less than stellar job of conveying my story.  The questions she's asking alone are making me focus it much better.

I just wish the comment were, "you need to convey this better" rather than "I've got an idea, let's have your character do this for this reason instead of the way you have it."



> If a comment tells you to change a story drastically, you're going to have to decide if it's for the better or not. If not, then ignore.



I emailed her tonight and told her I just don't feel that these two particular suggestions were for the better.



> When my choices are challenged, I ask myself if my choices are as interesting as I think they are. If they are, then I ask myself if I've set them up well enough. Also sometimes doing the expected can open up more interesting paths. It's like sometimes a revealed secret is better than a kept one.



I definitely needed to set my choices up better.  That's what I'm working on now.

Thanks!


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 31, 2013)

The Dark One said:


> It is said, go not to the editors for advice...for they will say both no and yes.
> 
> I have worked with numerous editors over my three published books (all published by small publishers) and I simply refuse to make fundamental structural or character changes. This is not to say I wouldn't be open to making changes on the basis of a superb suggestion - in fact, I made two pretty big changes to my latest book on the basis of suggestions from beta readers - but the instant I suspect that the editor doesn't 'get' the book then that's it. I can't work with someone who hasn't paid enough attention to my precious work to appreciate what I'm trying to convey.
> 
> ...



You are in a vastly different place in your writing career than I am.  I'm still on the steep part of the learning curve and trying the find out exactly how the crap to do this.


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## The Dark One (Sep 1, 2013)

Don't know about 'vastly'...I haven't been THAT successful just yet.

But my point was, I had the confidence to ignore editors' advice from the start if I thought it was wrong. If you or a publisher are paying for the editor's time they should at least do you the professional courtesy of reading it and trying to comprehend your vision before imposing their own.

Mind you, despite the rant, I gather that you are learning a fair bit from the editor about pacing and structure, so...that's good. The relationship might be worth continuing into the future and working closely from an earlier phase.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 1, 2013)

The Dark One said:


> Don't know about 'vastly'...I haven't been THAT successful just yet.
> 
> But my point was, I had the confidence to ignore editors' advice from the start if I thought it was wrong. If you or a publisher are paying for the editor's time they should at least do you the professional courtesy of reading it and trying to comprehend your vision before imposing their own.
> 
> Mind you, despite the rant, I gather that you are learning a fair bit from the editor about pacing and structure, so...that's good. The relationship might be worth continuing into the future and working closely from an earlier phase.



If I didn't think she was really good and I wasn't learning a lot, it would be a lot easier to reject the advice. 

As a sanity check, Ankari and I chatted about it last night (he's one of my main beta readers and has read all my editor's comments).  He feels I need to do a bit of work to better convey what I want but that I'm justified in rejecting her advice.

That makes me feel better about my decision to reject the advice.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 1, 2013)

As a further sanity check, I posted a portion in the Showcase.  I'd appreciate some more opinions.

Thanks!

Brian


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## Chessie (Sep 1, 2013)

I hope things go smoother from here with all this clarity you've gained now, BW. I'm sure your book is great.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 2, 2013)

New rant.  Please bear with me as the saga continues.

My editor and I exchanged many, many messages over the past several days.  I told her that I was not going to make the two changes that I shared with this forum earlier.  She fought me hard on it and only grudgingly agreed to let the matter drop.

I could tell, however, that she wasn't pleased about it at all.

In a recent message, she asks (paraphrasing), "Are you doubting my advice because you don't believe me or because you're afraid to face the hard choices?"

I pointed out that, for just one example, I made the "hard" choice to completely rewrite my Chapter 6 because I believed her suggestion was far superior to what I had.  I went on to say, however, that she's done some things that undermined my confidence in her.  For example, this:



> Xan relit his torch. “I’ll take care of it. You two stay here.”
> Brant’s face reddened while Lainey’s expression turned sympathetic.



Her comment: How can we see this without any light?

I figured they could use the light from Xan’s relit torch!

In response, she spouted some junk about maybe she copied the text over wrong because her version was different.  I copied/pasted the sentences I sent her from her marked up copy!

She is infuriating me!  Her whole attitude is, "I have experience with a  Big 6 publisher.  I know all, and what I say is the only way for your novel to be any good."  She couples that attitude with an absolute refusal to acknowledge that she could possibly, conceivably be wrong in even the smallest matter, even when I point out an out and out error on her part.

Going forward, I still think I can learn from her.  She's really good at showing me where my tension is lacking, but I told her to just send me her comments without any more back and forth. 

/rant

Thanks for listening.

Again!

Brian


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## A. E. Lowan (Sep 2, 2013)

Honestly, from my background as a head hunter (recruiter) my first question when I see independent editors describing themselves as having experience with major publishing houses is, "Ok, so why aren't you still there?"  And exactly what was she experienced in?  What were her responsibilities?  I can say I was an office manager for a multistate entertainment agency, which is absolutely true.  What I'm leaving out is that I managed strippers over the phone in 4 states out of my employer's home.

It sounds to me like she's over-booked herself and is skimming your work rather than actually reading it, then lying to cover it up.  That wouldn't fill me with confidence.  Toss that in with your feeling that she has no experience in the genre and I think you have a recipe for sad panda.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 2, 2013)

> my first question when I see independent editors describing themselves as having experience with major publishing houses is, "Ok, so why aren't you still there?"



I'll be honest.  I've had the same thought.



> It sounds to me like she's over-booked herself and is skimming your work rather than actually reading it, then lying to cover it up.



I don't think that's it as much as she get something fixed in her head and won't let it go.  She reads something and sees exactly one way to fix it.  That's it.  Nothing else can possibly work, and she can't possibly be wrong about either the problem or the solution.

It's kinda like I'm helping myself edit the thing, only the other myself doesn't agree with me 

Thanks for the response!

Brian


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## wordwalker (Sep 2, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I don't think that's it as much as she get something fixed in her head and won't let it go.  She reads something and sees exactly one way to fix it.  That's it.  Nothing else can possibly work, and she can't possibly be wrong about either the problem or the solution.



Anyone who sees only one way is wrong. (Oook, kind of a contradiction...)

You said you learned a lot from this editor, so she seems to have some good ideas between her slipups. But if she keeps pushing the worst disagreements to the level of drama, you do have to stop and say "Am I being stubborn? (Thinks honestly about it--) No, I think this really is what's best for the book, and for my career."

And it's always best to make sure that, in the end, you're still free to follow another great sage and "Know when to walk away. Know when to run."


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## PaulineMRoss (Sep 3, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> My editor and I exchanged many, many messages over the past several days.  I told her that I was not going to make the two changes that I shared with this forum earlier.  She fought me hard on it and only grudgingly agreed to let the matter drop.
> 
> I could tell, however, that she wasn't pleased about it at all.



She wasn't pleased? She fought you hard? She only grudgingly agreed to let the matter drop? Does she fully understand her role in this business arrangement? She's the hired help, she doesn't get to be disgruntled. Now, if your doctor says 'I really think you ought to...', then, yes, you probably ought to. Or at least get a second opinion. Your lawyer, yes. Even your accountant. But your editor? The one *you* are paying for?

Her role is to bank her fee and smile sweetly. This is your book, your story, your characters, your plot.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 3, 2013)

PaulineMRoss said:


> She wasn't pleased? She fought you hard? She only grudgingly agreed to let the matter drop? Does she fully understand her role in this business arrangement? She's the hired help, she doesn't get to be disgruntled. Now, if your doctor says 'I really think you ought to...', then, yes, you probably ought to. Or at least get a second opinion. Your lawyer, yes. Even your accountant. But your editor? The one *you* are paying for?
> 
> Her role is to bank her fee and smile sweetly. This is your book, your story, your characters, your plot.



I know.  She seems way too adamant.

An editor in my writing group never does the back and forth thing.  Instead, just issues comments all at once and is done with it.

On the plus side, my writing is improving.  I'm going through a scene this morning and thinking, "I wrote this?  What the crap was I thinking?"  Less than a month ago, I thought it was just fine from a tension/emotion standpoint.


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## Chessie (Sep 3, 2013)

I'm sure not all editors are like this, but the ones that are really need to get off their high horse. Sometimes things can be worded in a way that's easier to understand, or perhaps there are typos you didn't notice, but to try and change your work is too much. Is there any way you can find another editor? Because by the looks of things, your story just might end up being completely different if things continue this route.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 3, 2013)

Chesterama said:


> I'm sure not all editors are like this, but the ones that are really need to get off their high horse. Sometimes things can be worded in a way that's easier to understand, or perhaps there are typos you didn't notice, but to try and change your work is too much. Is there any way you can find another editor? Because by the looks of things, your story just might end up being completely different if things continue this route.



I think it's going to be okay.

I'm not going to do the back and forth any more, and it's getting much easier for me to disregard any advice I feel takes the story in the wrong direction.

What I am changing is making the story much stronger, including some pretty major rewrites.  If the story needs the rewrite, it should be rewritten.  And I was never very happy with some of my early chapters.  She was able to point out in quite a few places ways that I was robbing tension.


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## SineNomine (Sep 4, 2013)

My generalized advice is just that, if it is at all possible, put your feelings aside and try the advice given to you.  You can end up being pleasantly surprised by a change that you were completely against originally when you see it in action.  There are absolutely times where you just don't have the right perspective as the author and will never see the value in a potential edit until you are face to face with it.  Because, ultimately, if it doesn't work then all you have lost is a little bit of time and energy and you've explored an avenue you otherwise wouldn't have.  Even when it doesn't work, it can sometimes spark other ideas.  We're writers, you give us a creative inch and we take a creative mile.

That being said, it depends on how much you are being asked to change.  A complete rewrite is just way too much work to do "just to see if it works" for example.  Some major changes are just too all-encompassing to play around with when there is a chance they won't add anything.

Ultimately, an editor's most important trait is discerning what story the author wants to tell and it's relation to the story already there on the paper.  Their advice on how to bridge that gap is certainly a plus, and that is how the greatest editors distinguish themselves, but the "advice on what to change" cart should never be put before the "understanding of what the author is trying to accomplish" horse.  Your editor should ALWAYS make it clear what exactly they are trying to fix before telling you how you may fix it.  This allows actual dialogue and frequently leads to great compromises.  Identifying it is their job and fixing it is a job for both of you, working together.  A good editor doesn't care if their advice is followed or not as long as the problem is dealt with in some way.  Pride has no place in it.


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## wordwalker (Sep 4, 2013)

Excellent point, SineNomine. The author has the final say in things, but the process ought to be more organic than that. And sometimes --sometimes-- the things we resist the most are just the biggest blind spots we have about what the story could be... if we were to take a wider look at what other approaches there might be to it.

The rule of thumb could be that the writer has to find the solution (or the editor would be writing it herself) but the editor's an expert opinion on what hidden problems and opportunities are there.

Of course, when an editor goes beyond confident and inspiring to confrontational, nobody wins.


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## The Dark One (Sep 5, 2013)

I don't doubt the validity of Sine Nomine's advice in a goodly proportion of contexts, but sometimes the editor's advice is so wrong that it needs to be ignored completely without wasting any time on it. The first book I had accepted was a crime novel in which the main character is an aging goalkeeper (39) who decides to follow his dream of playing professional football in England. He winds up playing for a non-league team which is really a legitimate business front for the Irish mafia and soon finds himself in all sorts of terrible trouble. The football and crime/mystery threads gradually all twist together in a wild conclusion, and the ending is partly happy, partly disappointing.

The first editor I was given (by the publisher who had already accepted the book), read the book and suggested that the goalkeeper ought to be about 17, play for a really big and famous club, and win the FA Cup final.

Can you guess what I said to him?


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## Steerpike (Sep 5, 2013)

The Dark One said:


> I don't doubt the validity of Sine Nomine's advice in a goodly proportion of contexts, but sometimes the editor's advice is so wrong that it needs to be ignored completely without wasting any time on it. The first book I had accepted was a crime novel in which the main character is an aging goalkeeper (39) who decides to follow his dream of playing professional football in England. He winds up playing for a non-league team which is really a legitimate business front for the Irish mafia and soon finds himself in all sorts of terrible trouble. The football and crime/mystery threads gradually all twist together in a wild conclusion, and the ending is partly happy, partly disappointing.
> 
> The first editor I was given (by the publisher who had already accepted the book), read the book and suggested that the goalkeeper ought to be about 17, play for a really big and famous club, and win the FA Cup final.
> 
> Can you guess what I said to him?



Yeah, I can guess. And I'd rather read your version of the book than what the editor was proposing. That sounds truly awful.


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## pmmg (Oct 13, 2022)

Reading through the effort above, I think the best comment is to ignore it whenever you just disagree with. Its yours after all. But we must accept the risk of that.

I only comment on this old one to say. I think the best method of appraising and editor, especially one you are having a hard time accepting, is to get another opinion. Ideally, would be to get three editors and try them all out. If two or three agree, you may have to give up the ghost on stubbornness, but if they don't agree and come with different takes, maybe they can more easily be ignored. 

Since very few have recourse to more than one, and unless you are really good at researching, your earliest editor is likely to be along the lines of a shot in the dark, I think all you can do is trust where it makes sense, don't trust where it doesn't, and if you are wondering if they are really a match, try a different one for the next effort and compare.

It might be useful to ask here, or elsewhere, from people in the same boat as you, and may know your story, if they know of an editor that me be a good match. I little less of a shot in the dark that way, and you have at least one reference.


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