# How do you guys deal with languages?



## PhoenixF2B (Jul 9, 2013)

Hey all!

I apologize if this has been posted previously, but I was just curious how different writers attacked different techniques.

I am working on a novel, which hopefully will be the first of a series, and one thing I want to keep authentic is language barriers.  I understand for communicative reasons having characters all speak "Basic" or a general language but it is something that always bothered me a little.  Even in Lord of the Rings, everyone seems to speak everyone's language.

In my story, or rather in the series the story arcs across a fair amount of land, in with that comes a clash of cultures.  I have been spending a lot of my world building time trying to develop a distinct cultural feel for each region, and that includes having characters that speak different languages.

Since writing is showing and not telling anyway, I thought on occasion it would be interesting and a creative challenge to have language play an obstacle in communication and figure out how they could communicate in other ways.   I also have characters with mixed backgrounds and I wanted their syntax and speak patterns to be different.

My solution was to create a few different languages. Now when I say create, I mean a VERY GENERAL Basic language with fundamental grammatical rules and structure and a minimal vocabulary that I can expand when needed.  TECHNICALLY, these can be spoken and written (and I even made a typable font for each one) but what I ended up with was a least a foundation for characters to have a distinct set of sounds and speak patterns, and something that when used doesn't sound like I'm making up words on the spot.

I attached a picture with these four langues side by side for comparison. You can see that they all share some similarities as well as some stark differences.  (for example, in Gesel, all they have are consonants, vowels are used as accent marks in various places in their text).

I would love some feedback as well as I am curious how all of you tackle languages and cultural differences in your stories 

Languages for Book - Imgur


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## Ireth (Jul 10, 2013)

In my latest WIP, the primary human characters are Norse-Gaels -- originally from Scandinavia, they sailed to Scotland or Ireland (haven't decided which) and adopted the culture and languages there to some extent while still holding onto their own languages and gods. The main non-human characters are Norse light-elves, who speak Norse (of course), and the Fae, who speak in Celtic languages such as Gaelic and Welsh. Initially when these three groups interact, the bilingual Norse-Gaels act as translators between the light-elves and Fae, but later on the MC, a Fae named Cadell, has a spell cast on him that allows him to understand the Norse tongue (but only with one ear), and speak it as well, with concentration. The speaking part grows easier as he spends more time among the Norse-Gaels and light-elves, hearing more of their language, but the understanding never extends beyond what he hears with his right ear. I did this on purpose to keep things interesting and hopefully a bit more realistic, as much as magic can be. Other unilingual characters still need translators during discourses with speakers of the other languages.


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## PhoenixF2B (Jul 10, 2013)

I like that idea, that is a rather original solution.  I find it interesting when there are cultural clashes and I think it's a little easier to relate to.  Plus you are using a region with really rich languages that sound mythical already so that must add a bit of realism to it alone.


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## Spider (Jul 10, 2013)

Your written languages look fairly complex. Wouldn't it take your characters a long time to write, for example, a letter? Or maybe there are scribes who do the majority of the writing. 

Just curious


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## Trick (Jul 10, 2013)

Everything I'm working on at the moment is pretty basic in this area. One is on Earth and though characters travel the world over, English is pretty common among educated people around the world so I'm not making a big deal out of it. The other is all in one huge area where everyone speaks the same tongue with a few foreigners mixed in but they've learned the language well enough to do business. There is an old language but it is reduced to vocabulary based on Germanic languages.

I do however have an epic that I'm taking a break from and I've been building a language to be part of that world for nearly ten years. When I'm done, I want it to be as detailed as any of Tolkien's or even Esperanto. It has a unique alphabet and grammar and an ever growing vocabulary (I get an itch to work on it now and again, even though I'm 'taking a break'). I've also developed a variant of it that was learned only by mouth, then adapted to another alphabet and grew and changed on it's own. 

In story, I do come across the occasional situation where it is unrealistic for everyone to speak the same language. In that case I try to incorporate the ability to translate into one of the characters.


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## PhoenixF2B (Jul 10, 2013)

They are complex in looks but once you learn the rules of it writing isn't much more complex than our own.  With some of them, a single glyph or combo of two is a complete word.  Before I typed out these fonts I designed them all on paper by handwriting.  As I developed them and tested out words, I had to write them out myself and it was fairly quite after becoming familiar with the characters and rules.

In most of their cultures the text is used in trade, laws and records, and their mythology and scripts.  The one in particular, Gesel, is a little different.  Gesel is actually a branch off from Maakk-aar (they look very similar but there are distinct differences).  Gesel is used in one particular large region where language is taken VERY seriously.  It is their sense of honor and pride and they have different tiers:

Foundational Gesel: This is used by general native citizens and the version every inhabitant learns growing up.  It is NOT allowed to be spoken outside of their realm however nor is it to be spoken to foreigners.

High Gesel: This is a higher form of the language used by royalty and positions of authority. It is privileged and not spoken to or by standard citizens. It uses more combinations of vowels and an alternative vocabulary for many words.

International Gesel: THIS is the version that is allowed to be spoken outside the realm and it is the dialect that foreigners are allowed to learn and use.  It is streamlined and basic to allow for easier communication between countries.

They are very strict on their language and violations can result in imprisonment or banishment.

The same rules apply to written text. Every document must bear the seal of the author who is held accountable for it and documents in High Gesel are not allowed to be read or possessed or read by standard citizens and all that.

That is just an example of some of the cultural background behind some of their languages


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## PhoenixF2B (Jul 10, 2013)

That is awesome! Tolkien's languages are so beautifully developed and rich. Mine don't come anywhere near the level of his, my goal was to make it just functional enough to work and give the characters some definition.  Proper language construction is HARD and I admire you for making yours as detailed as you are


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## Mara Edgerton (Jul 10, 2013)

I like the look of your languages, Phoenix. That will be brilliant if you work with maps and such, or show a picture of various documents. However, if you want characters to use a word or phrase of their tongue here or there in your book, it might be better to transliterate. If we, as readers, can reasonably guess how the word is pronounced, the different sounds of each might help to distinguish one culture from another.

For myself, I tend to start with the grammar and structure of an existing language and work from there to create a new one, making small changes along the way. Then I figure out what the language should sound like--are the r's rolled or trilled? Does it use only pure vowels? Does it use a limited number of consonants? 

I've also found Holly Lisle's _Create a Language Clinic_ e-book useful. I don't know if her methods will work for everyone, but I'm on board with many of them.


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## mbartelsm (Jul 10, 2013)

I've always been a fan of more calligraphic-looking characters, I don't really like such geometric shapes, but that's just me.
I've been creating languages for my world since I started building it two years ago, right now I am making a sixth or seventh attempt at a language, and I'm also hoping this will be the final one (though not likely, I really enjoy making up languages).

I'm not really a writer, I'm an illustrator and my story will probably end up as a graphic novel, which is why y languages are more aesthetic than practical.

As for how to work with different languages, I usually make a basic language or proto-language, and make two or three based on that one with their mayor differences being not really in their lexicon but in their grammar and aspect, that way I don't have to worry much about making a whole new vocabulary.


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## deilaitha (Jul 10, 2013)

A 'lingua franca' is kind of a cop-out, I agree. However, it's pretty pervasive in most writing.  Heck, I'm guilty of it. I think it takes a lot of imagination to avoid this.  Your idea sounds original and really really challenging to write.

I have noticed that in general most books sort of ignore this, expecting that the reader's 'willing suspension of disbelief' will be enough to get them through. I can't remember where it is in Orson Scott Card's book _How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy_, but he addresses this very problem quite well. He says that you don't have to make up a language, but you can say that the character is speaking a different language, sort of like this: '"Hello," I replied clumsily. It had been so long since I last spoke Gremillion that the words sounded funny in my mouth. "I have to ask you a question."' 

I think that the 'lingua franca' cop-out is common enough that most people overlook it, but I really like the idea that you have here. You might check out the Card book, he has some incredibly awesome advice for that kind of thing.


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## Mara Edgerton (Jul 10, 2013)

PhoenixF2B said:


> I attached a picture with these four langues side by side for comparison. You can see that they all share some similarities as well as some stark differences.  (for example, in Gesel, all they have are consonants, vowels are used as accent marks in various places in their text).



BTW, is this like Hebrew where the vowel markings are just sort of the equivalent of training wheels? Or are they always included, even on the most official documents?

Hebrew without vowel markings is, in my experience, much harder to read--unless you're a native Israeli, of course. If this language eschews them, it will mean a higher learning curve for your foreign characters who wish to read it. (Random observation from someone without enough years in Hebrew school . . .)


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## PhoenixF2B (Jul 10, 2013)

Hi Mara,

For some of the aspects I did draw influences from some current languages.  For example I took a reference from Spanish regarding how adjectives come AFTER nouns for some of my languages.  I also read about some languages don't always have the same elements, so in my language of Daneth there are no adjectives.  That was a fun challenge and though it gave it a little bit of distinction, even if I am the only one that knows what it is.  In Daneth, adjectives are verbs. An object ISN'T something, it DOES something.

For example: to say "The Apple is Red"  in Daneth it would translate to "The Apple is Redding". 

As far as making it easier to pronounce for the reader, I do plan on characters pronouncing things more phoenetically, so that the reader can sound it out.  If I show text or documents it will be in the native language.


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## PhoenixF2B (Jul 10, 2013)

Now in my examples, Daneth is one of the more widely used languages because of trade alliances and such and is their official language of business and many areas speak it.  However, I am taking care to note subtle differences from regions.  Just because two countries speak Daneth doesn't mean they speak it identically.  Accents, dialects and different vocabulary develops, just how United States and England speak "English", our versions are very very different.

And even though I have a wider known language, there will be plenty of interaction with characters from different areas that speak another language all together and my characters and my story telling will have to deal with that.

If I am crafty enough and can do it smoothly, I would like to have my main character (who is from one country that speaks Daneth arriving in another) come across the occasional difference in dialect and work around it.  If it's too distracting I won't but yes I thought keeping languages in mind like this would be a fun and rewarding challenge if I can pull it off.


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## PhoenixF2B (Jul 10, 2013)

Mara Edgerton said:


> BTW, is this like Hebrew where the vowel markings are just sort of the equivalent of training wheels? Or are they always included, even on the most official documents?
> 
> Hebrew without vowel markings is, in my experience, much harder to read--unless you're a native Israeli, of course. If this language eschews them, it will mean a higher learning curve for your foreign characters who wish to read it. (Random observation from someone without enough years in Hebrew school . . .)



No the vowel markings are permanent and always used. Where they are positioned over the consonants determines when in the word they are spoken or applied.

In the bottom one, Maakk-aar, vowels are treated similarly but those glyphs are more complicated and have "syllable extensions"  and a few extra rules.  Maakk-aar and Gesel have similar roots but developed separarately.


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## Creed (Jul 10, 2013)

I'd just like to say that your language flows wonderfully. Those sample sentences were- and I really mean this- beautiful. They were like Spanish, but with cooler pronunciation.
That sounded emotional- and it was. I like languages.
As for me, my current series in progress is on three different worlds, and characters from the first go to he second and the third and characters from the second and third go to the first, so there's some language barriers there. To solve it I have the languages all spawn from a single language, the Elder tongue, which I work on sometimes. My problem is my knowledge only extends to Romantic languages and I need to expand- I looked at some Arabic rules (especially the naming syatem) and it entertained me for a few hours! 
I know it's unrealistic that the one language would stay the same, so I make it change slightly on each world in terms of certain words and such. Unfortunately I can't write in dialects all the time because I'm sure most readers would find it incredibly annoying. I know I would.


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## PhoenixF2B (Jul 10, 2013)

Creed said:


> I'd just like to say that your language flows wonderfully. Those sample sentences were- and I really mean this- beautiful. They were like Spanish, but with cooler pronunciation.
> That sounded emotional- and it was. I like languages.



Thank you Creed, that means a great deal to me, I had put so much time into the 4 languages I have so far.

I like your idea of the elder tongue, and how they spread apart and developed on their own, because that is a little more realistic.  I think it is ok that you don't write in dialects the whole time, you don't want to make that the focus but I really think that just a little bit of it thrown in there enriches it


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## TheokinsJ (Jul 10, 2013)

My advice; If you want to and you are committed, go for it, it will add so much depth to your world building and can be really cool. The reason I would not do it myself is because I have already tried. Tolkien wrote The Lord of The Rings very late in his life, he had spent 40 or so years creating the elvish language and adapting it, using it in even some of his earlier books that were not set in Middle-Earth. He was also a linguistics professor at Oxford, so he had a fair amount of knowledge on the matter. For most of us writers, we can't follow in the footsteps of Tolkien because of time, it took Tolkien a lifetime to create his languages and for someone like me, I don't have 40 years to do the same. I create different languages within my world and my cultures, but I don't have the characters speak in them. For example; rather than a character saying "rac'noc dar finda' ulacnoc!", which essentially is meaningless to the reader, I just say "The man spoke in a foreign tongue, a language that he could not understand". Makes it easier and keeps things simple, it's good to have multiple languages, but the effort to create them is huge, so if you wish to do so, be prepared.


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## PhoenixF2B (Jul 11, 2013)

Well I have already created them, four of them.  They are in no way anything like Tolkien, he wrote fantastic languages.  I wrote just enough of mine to have a basic structure and work within the culture I need.  Just enough to give foreign characters some consistency in their speech patterns and mannerisms.  My languages technically work, and on a very primal level can be written, read and spoken but they are by no means subject matter for a linguistics course.


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## PhoenixF2B (Jul 11, 2013)

In fact I have spent the past 2 years building up my world.  I made an outline with topics such as "weather" "currency" "races" "geography" etc... and everything I thought of I wrote it down and logged it.  That outline turned into a current 210 page reference manual on my world. (you can see a photo of it in my pictures in the link in the first post of this thread).

Most of it will never make it into the stories but I needed it for me.  It is a foundation on which I will build and use only what is relevant but the actual background is there.  I am plotting my stories currently.  A year and a half ago I sat down to write chapter one and could not see my world. I found it very difficult to navigate and describe it so I went back to my reference material and kept working on my world until I could.

Now, I can not only see it, but I can taste, hear and smell it too. I can FEEL it.  I can close my eyes and be standing on the surface of their world and feel what it's like to be there, and that is what I needed before I could move forward.  I have a long writing journey ahead of me but boy am I excited to take it


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## A. E. Lowan (Jul 13, 2013)

We write urban fantasy, but even we have some language issues as our series spans the mortal realm and Faerie, as well as 4 continents and several major languages including English, Japanese, Italian and Arabic.  In the first book in the series we have two Faerie lords in our fictional city of Seahaven, WA - one who speaks several languages, English in various forms being one of them, and one who has only been speaking English for about a year.  Their native language is Faerie Gaelic.  We never get around to using any actual words in Faerie Gaelic, mainly because as much as I love Gaelic I also know it's a serious pain and our premise is that Faerie Gaelic is the root language for our modern forms of Gaelic.  Rather, we have fun with language barriers and struggles with idiomatic English and slang terms - for example, the FMC's teenage apprentice thinks the fact that their new acquaintances are "he Sidhes" is hilarious, and the FMC has to try to delicately explain why the girl is giggling herself into hysterics in the corner.


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## SomethingToPonder (Jul 25, 2013)

I really think you have done fairly well, They look brilliant, However how often will they be used? maybe every now and again in caves or dungeons? And of course in major conversations, but it looks absolutely fine as it is.

May i ask how you managed to create the fonts? It seems like something i may have to do at some point. 
Well done mate, very well done.


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## Jabrosky (Jul 25, 2013)

I don't bother with conlangs. I just borrow words from real languages and use them as names for places and characters.


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## PhoenixF2B (Jul 27, 2013)

SomethingToPonder said:


> I really think you have done fairly well, They look brilliant, However how often will they be used? maybe every now and again in caves or dungeons? And of course in major conversations, but it looks absolutely fine as it is.
> 
> May i ask how you managed to create the fonts? It seems like something i may have to do at some point.
> Well done mate, very well done.



Thanks for the kind words!  The languages will pop up in signs, documents and landmarks when the characters travel to the specific locations.  Unfortunately some of the languages won't be seen in this book series, but I created them just so I had authentic speech patterns from some characters that come from those backgrounds. 

You will see a lot of the langues in promo art and book covers and such at a later point when I get there.

As far as the fonts, I created each character from scratch in Photoshop and then imported them into a font making program and applied them to keyboard keys.  Some of these fonts are complex and are layered. For example, Gesel and Maa-kkaar use vowels as accent marks.  Depending on the position (top left, top right, etc) of the accent the word makes a very different sound.

You can see how that would easily create way too many versions of each character to account for this, so I designed "layered" fonts.  In the font program I told all the vowel accent marks to type backwards into negative space, so that it types OVER the previous character.  This way I was able to just make each accent mark and it can be applied to any character.  Sometimes I can make 3-4 keystrokes that the cursor won't move because of this.

I definitely appreciate the feedback


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## SomethingToPonder (Jul 28, 2013)

No problem, Very intricate. 
Hope your series does well, I have do doubt it will


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## Ophiucha (Jul 28, 2013)

I would love to come up with the orthography for any of my languages - particularly one as pretty as 'Gesel' -, but I have all of the artistic capabilities of the average 6yr old tortoise, so I just stick with interesting sounding languages instead with unique grammar. As for how I deal with _that_, I would say that comes from 2 years in university as a Linguistics minor and the occasional long night crying into a bottle of Stoli. (I kid, I kid; I'm more of a rum girl these days, anyway.)

Language is a moderately important aspect of my current story. It's a story that deals with a bit of fantasy!colonialism, including the part where the colonized people have been forced to adapt to their colonizer's society, and many no longer know their own language. It is still the language that their holy books are written in, as well as many of their old scientific tomes, and the writings on the walls of their runes. Though many consider their language (and the culture that came with it) to be sadly lost, but not worth recovering, history, there are those who try to keep the language alive through the church and through independent study. Some still teach it to their children, although many of them grow up and forget it since they rarely get the chance to use it. There was a time in their history when it was banned to speak it in public, and although those rules have eased up, you'll often still get leers from the starlings (the colonizer people) if you're speaking it loud enough for them to hear. A lot of the story also takes place at an abbey, of sorts, so even the characters who don't speak the language will likely hear it and see it written down a few times. So I kind of want to work on how it sounds to a non-speaker, as well. Where the emphasis is, how the vowels flow together, that sort of thing. And I'd like to focus on the words that they have which has no equivalent in the starling language, to sort of symbolically represent the ideas they've lost.

I _do _get a bit lazy with the starlings' language, though. I've not committed to it yet, but I'll  probably only go as far as coming up with how to name the characters (which itself will probably be heavily adapted from Ancient Greek) and just leave it at that. Not really interested in developing their language, although maybe a few drafts into this story I'll change my mind.


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## Tirjasdyn (Jul 28, 2013)

> Norse-Gaels -- originally from Scandinavia, they sailed to Scotland or Ireland (haven't decided which) and adopted the culture and languages there to some extent while still holding onto their own languages and gods.



Huh.  That's how English eventually came about.


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## Gurkhal (Jul 30, 2013)

After much consideration on the subject of languages I have for my own writing decided that I am not up to the task of making entirely new languages, and therefor I will instead use existing languages from cultures similar to the one I'm using and simply make some changes in to produce a version of that language for my world. 

The way that you have handled it seems very cool and ambitious to me Phoenix although I know that I could never pull it off myself.


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## PhoenixF2B (Jul 31, 2013)

I said the same thing when I started but I decided to give it a crack. As I mentioned earlier in the post, my languages are seriously super simple and by no means subject for any linguistics study.  I started each one with just coming up with gibberish words with sounds like that I liked and just built from there.

This is a good site, I used it a lot for reference but I did not go anywhere close to this in depth but thought I would share it as a good reference.

The Language Construction Kit


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## draken (Aug 1, 2013)

wow all I did was create an alphabet and a few key phrases for one language, my wizzard hat off to you for putting in so much effort. very impressed. im starting with a society that's just surivied an apocalyspe, and is on the run so I can build as I go from the ground up.


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## Addison (Aug 1, 2013)

If language is a barrier I suggest a classic solution. Charades. 
In "Dances with Wolves" (the movie not the book) the hero put two fingers to his head and walked like a buffalo to get his message across to the chief. 

I have a few languages in my WIP. When the hero hears it for the first time I describe it as best I can "Soft whispers and clicks" "harsh grunts and tongue clicking". I also describe how it was for him to speak a small part of the language and how he was trying and sort of failing at writing it, by means of critique from his teacher: "Your dwarven is good, but there's no curved lines in dwarf writing. Think of their writing as strikes with an axe."


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## PhoenixF2B (Aug 2, 2013)

That is a fantastic approach and I was hoping to have characters get around language barriers by other means.  I LIKE the idea of them struggling with something so simple, it adds some human nature to it I think.


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