# Divine Intervention vs. Deus Ex Machina



## Mindfire (Oct 13, 2012)

What you you guys think about divine intervention as a plot point? Like? Dislike? Despise? The floor is open.


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## Ankari (Oct 13, 2012)

Divine intervention _is_ Deus Ex Machina.  

"The heroes are surrounded by the enemy.  All good is about to be wiped from the face of the planet-

-Oh wait, angels have come wielding the Hammers of Judgement.  The enemies are slain.  The angels thank the heroes for believing in their Lord."

I'd feel cheated.  Also, the question will come up: "Why did divine intervention come at _that specific time?_  When Character X died 20 chapters ago, where were those angels?  Was he not deserving?  I loved Character X!


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## Mindfire (Oct 13, 2012)

Ankari said:


> Divine intervention is Deus Ex Machina.
> 
> "The heroes are surrounded by the enemy.  All good is about to be wiped from the face of the planet-
> 
> ...



You've given me an excellent opportunity to showcase the idea that made me create this thread. The situation is this: my main character, Reuben, is at the end of his rope: beaten, starved, and held prisoner by his enemies, who mean to break his spirit. Six times he has attempted escape and failed each time. As he languishes on the brink of despair, weak and delirious, he experiences a vision. A large Black Owl, his culture's version of the Angel of death, appears in his cell. His will to live all but lost, he greets the avatar of death like a friend, thinking it has come tend his suffering. The Owl gives a haunting cry, and the cell door swings open on its hinges. The Owl stares at my protagonist, silently urging him to make his choice. Reuben gathers his last reserves of strength and declares he will not die in this cell. The Owl flies out of the cell, Reuben follows. He runs, driven by the strength of desperation, the Owl always just ahead of him. After running he knows not how long, he finds himself in the woods, a free man, and collapses from exhaustion into the arms of a friend who had been searching for him many days.

This moment really speaks to me, and I think it has impact. The Black Owl is foreshadowed, explained, and even seen briefly earlier in the narrative. The scene is written just ambiguously enough that the reader might question whether it was real or just a hallucination or fever dream. The "real" answer is that it did happen, but the power of the scene is what matters. I like the idea of a character hitting rock bottom, and then discovering that they are not alone.


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## WyrdMystic (Oct 13, 2012)

Used as a plot device like that I think it can be really effective, especially if the owl is hinted at throughout the story. If that is the end of the story though I would feel cheated.

If it is part of the story and the eventual conclusion comes from the feats of the character and not the intervention of the owl (as in the angel of death is a portent or a helping hand, or is even a manifestation of his subconscious allowing access to powers they never knew they possessed) then I would be happy! Very happy!


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## Weaver (Oct 13, 2012)

My general opinion is that gods ought to stay out of it, but that's a matter of personal taste.  (We've been asked for our opinion, right?  So we're allowed to express that opinion, even if it may possibly conflict with what someone else expresses later?)  I think that, if the intervention is foreshadowed well, and if it comes not at the most desperate moment but rather at an earlier but still important point, it could work.  Depends on the story.  Also depends on how the author depicts the divinities in question.

I agree with Ankari that I'd feel cheated if there was some kind of sudden 'angels appearing from nowhere' intervention.  If angels are going to appear in the story, far better if they're there to inspire the hero to keep going, or to offer advice, or otherwise not cheat the _character_ of his chance to _be_ the hero.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Oct 13, 2012)

WHY is the god intervening just then? Also, HOW can you emphasize that the final outcome is determined by the character, not by external super powerful forces?

Elizabeth Moon's excellent "Deed of Paksenarrion" has a powerful moment of deus ex machina in the last book of the trilogy. But it works: because really, the entire story has led up to that moment. You've seen the character proving herself over and over, seen clues leading to that moment, so when it comes, it's not jarring (although IMHO, despite all that, it's not the series' finest moment anyway). So it can be done effectively, or at least not in such a way that it messes up the story. But it's not easy.


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## Sheriff Woody (Oct 13, 2012)

I struggle to think of any example where letting the hero sit back and do nothing while the conflict is solved for him/her is a good idea.

I believe the key is to keep the hero active and foreshadow any outside help that may arrive, be it a god, another character, etc. 

This was handled beautifully in the original Star Wars film. Even though Luke is saved from Vader by Han, Luke was still active in speeding through the trench to fire into the exhaust port to blow up the Death Star. He never took a break from that goal, and his exchange with Han before Han (supposedly) left was the foreshadowing that gave his return such impact and made it work. 

You can do pretty much the same thing with divine intervention as long as you set it up in a way where it feels like an important part of the story instead of a cheap and simple fix or a Get Out of Plot Hole Free card.


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## Mindfire (Oct 13, 2012)

Here's what I think: simply put, balance is the key. My personal philosophy is that the purpose of divine intervention is to make the problem solvable, not to solve it _for_ the characters. 

A more dramatic example: I've planned for the series's grand finale to feature the heroes going up against the villainess and her army, who happen to be backed up by a demonic legion of the damned. Obviously it's impossible for my mere mortal protagonists to take on a host of demons, so the Yumennos (living stars and nature spirits) intervene to hold the demons at bay so the protagonists can have a chance at victory. But after that, it's all on them. That's all the help they get.


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## Feo Takahari (Oct 13, 2012)

There's a running gag in _Candorville_ that whenever a priest prays to God, asking if he should do some clearly immoral thing to raise money for the church, a blackout occurs. When he asks if he should keep silent about some rigged voting machines, it becomes an actual plot point--the machines wipe their records in the event of a blackout, and only one person in the entire district used a paper ballot. I think this was well-foreshadowed and pretty funny.

On the other end of the spectrum, one of the major characters in _Small Gods_ is a weak little tortoise that just happens to be a depowered deity. Rather than being a passive figure staring down from above, he has a clear personality and undergoes character development as the story proceeds. Even when calling up divine wrath (or attempting to, at least), he's never reduced to a living I-Win button.

I think the lesson to be learned is that active gods should have personalities, motivations, and maybe even a sense of humor.


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## Steerpike (Oct 13, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> What you you guys think about divine intervention as a plot point? Like? Dislike? Despise? The floor is open.



It all depends on what expectations have been sent. A deus ex machina typically refers to some unexpected, fortuitous event that saves the characters. If the author has set the stage to demonstrate the gods are active players and the action of the god follows rationally, then I don't have a problem with it.


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## Mindfire (Oct 13, 2012)

Weaver said:


> We've been asked for our opinion, right?  So we're allowed to express that opinion, even if it may possibly conflict with what someone else expresses later?



If I wanted someone to come into my threads, mindlessly agree with me, and then hand out rep points, I'd just make a shill account. And then I'd get banned. So yes, express your opinions, even if they disagree with mine. Things are more interesting that way.


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## WyrdMystic (Oct 13, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> If I wanted someone to come into my threads, mindlessly agree with me, and then hand out rep points, I'd just make a shill account. And then I'd get banned. So yes, express your opinions, even if they disagree with mine. Things are more interesting that way.



You are so right. I agree with everthing you say. PING PING PING


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## Mindfire (Oct 13, 2012)

WyrdMystic said:


> You are so right. I agree with everthing you say. PING PING PING



>_>

..................


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## ThinkerX (Oct 13, 2012)

Deities and direct divine intervention are monstrously difficult to convincingly pull off.

George RR Martin strongly recommends against it.

Fiest did it sucessfully a couple times in 'Riftwar' - and flopped pretty badly at it sequils to that series.

Saberhagen in his 'swords' books did it fairly well - but his deities were fading away without realizing it, and they seldom became directly involved.

Sauron, in Tolkiens 'Lord of the Rings', is to all intents and purposes a deity.

Erikson, in his Malazan books, has whole slews of demi-god level deities - several of which get killed.

Deities directly involve themselves in no small number of the TSR novels.  In my view the appearances are usually flops.

So..going from this and similiar stories...

I can see only a few cases where direct divine involvement could actually work without tanking the whole story:

1) The disguised god - a person known to the characters is really the avatar of a deity. 

2) Sharply limited deities - the gods who chose to become involved in mortal affairs or are allowed to are only marginally more powerful than say...a competent sorcerer.  Or the powers they influence are 'narrow'.  In the ancient world, a number of prominent people were promoted to demi-god status after their deaths - Buddha being a prime example.  The 'crippled' or 'exiled' God is another example of a 'limited' deity.  

3) Obtaining divine intervention is a major plot point - the God is testing his or her followers, to see if they are 'worthy'.  The characters are at least somewhat aware of this.

However, while direct divine intervention CAN work in these situations, it is still difficult to pull off.  It raises questions as to just what exactly a deity is.


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## WyrdMystic (Oct 13, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> >_>
> 
> ..................



Sorry, could not resist!


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## WyrdMystic (Oct 13, 2012)

Its not just about dieties, they can be used as applicable in the story. Whether or not they should get a hero from a scrape or not? If you want to look at successful cases of Deus Ex machina, look no further than Greek Mythology - Jason and the Argonauts, Clash of the Titans - even Percy Jackson. The Gods get themselves involved, but it doesn't stop the hero from being a hero. I think the key to this success is an opposing 'Deus Ex' type force that uses divine intervention to hinder.


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## Mindfire (Oct 13, 2012)

WyrdMystic said:


> Its not just about dieties, they can be used as applicable in the story. Whether or not they should get a hero from a scrape or not? If you want to look at successful cases of Deus Ex machina, look no further than Greek Mythology - Jason and the Argonauts, Clash of the Titans - even Percy Jackson. The Gods get themselves involved, but it doesn't stop the hero from being a hero. I think the key to this success is an opposing 'Deus Ex' type force that uses divine intervention to hinder.



Wouldn't that be "Diabolus Ex"?


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## WyrdMystic (Oct 13, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Wouldn't that be "Diabolus Ex"?



Probably. One cancelled out the other leaving the hero to be a hero.


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## shangrila (Oct 13, 2012)

I'd do my best to avoid this kind of thing. Heroes have to solve the problems themselves to be heroes, more or less, and having a god come in and simply wipe the problem away with a wave of their hand could make many readers feel cheated.


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## MystiqueRain (Oct 13, 2012)

Avoid it unless absolutely necessary. I'd actually feel better about the usage if the divine being that interfered appeared before the situation or was referenced to the point of being extremely important to the plot. Then the being appearing before the character would make more sense. As mentioned somewhere above, the idea of random angels popping out of nowhere just doesn't float my boat very well.


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## Mindfire (Oct 13, 2012)

To clarify the intent of this thread: assume that the writing is good, i.e. there is competent foreshadowing and things don't just drop out of the sky. Does the concept still work, or does it bother you despite how well it is written.


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## Penpilot (Oct 14, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> To clarify the intent of this thread: assume that the writing is good, i.e. there is competent foreshadowing and things don't just drop out of the sky. Does the concept still work, or does it bother you despite how well it is written.



It wouldn't bother me. Again, as long as it's set up right and I don't have one of those moments where I go WTF? Where the hell did that come from? Then it's all fine.


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## shangrila (Oct 14, 2012)

For me, personally, even if it's foreshadowed I'd find it cheap. There would have to be something bad attached to it not to, for me anyway.


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## WyrdMystic (Oct 14, 2012)

If the writing is good anything can work.


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## jrcarney52 (Oct 14, 2012)

I think having "the gods" or a great and powerful being intervening is just fine. I think it can be a powerful theme for a story. I've always smiled at how we tend to emphasize the "good side" of deus ex machina, the gods coming down to fortuitously "save" the protagonist. But what about the "bad side" of this kind of thing? What about the god that comes to and wipes out entire kingdoms, nations, empires, on a whim? And for petty reasons? When I think deus ex machina I often think of "At the Mountains of Madness" -- the main characters find out the "gods" are powerful aliens, and that life on earth was created on a whim to supply these gods with cheap labor, and cheap food. Or, better, in other Lovecraft stories, cultists worship the "Great Old Ones" not knowing these entities care little about them and in fact think of them the save way we think of, say, ants... they're only relationship to their followers is the relationship of a demented little boy to some an ant he's torturing for perverse fun. I always think of that quote from Lear, "As flies to wanton boys, are we to the gods; they kill us for their sport." From the pagan perspective, not only were the gods considered as regularly intervening in human affairs, they were seen as aggressive bastards smiting us mortals with diseases for petty offenses, killing us, raping us, carrying us away, etc.. I think deus ex machina can be really intriguing, whether or not the gods help your characters or harm them; however, I think divine intervention has to throw into focus the creepiest elements about divine entities: *they have all the power! we're helpless compared to them!* The problem with literalizing divine intervention in fantasy is very often the line between "mortals" and "immortals" gets blurred. My hunch is that fantasy writers struggle to frame their protags as anything less than "demi-gods." I can think of any number of fantasy writers whose characters are the modern literary equivalent of Hercules, Achilles, Odysseus, Beowulf, etc.. These "part-god" figures interact with gods on a different level than, say, an *actual mortal* interacting with a god. Thanks for the fun thread!


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## wordwalker (Oct 14, 2012)

The key may be building expectations, about what gods won't or can't do.

Phrases we've seen a lot here are "why the god didn't step in before" and beyond that "intervening at random." I think it's pulling off that sense of *when* they hold back or when they're blocked (by other gods, most likely) that saves a story from these, and lets it be a story we can relate to. That applies whether the hero's winning their help, working with/against a limited amount of divine force, or even a Clash of Miracles if we can still get a sense of why each god acts and why they may not win.

As long as it doesn't just open the door to "gods will do anything" and then leave that door open.


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## Penpilot (Oct 14, 2012)

jrcarney52 said:


> I've always smiled at how we tend to emphasize the "good side" of deus ex machina, the gods coming down to fortuitously "save" the protagonist. But what about the "bad side" of this kind of thing? What about the god that comes to and wipes out entire kingdoms, nations, empires, on a whim?



That isn't deus ex machina when they come down to wipe out kingdoms etc. To my understanding this is the defintion of it. Deus ex machina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Alex Beecroft (Oct 15, 2012)

I'm all for it if the god in question has been established as an active character in the plot beforehand. It's like anyone else suddenly doing something - you have to establish who they are and how they got to that point & decided to act like that beforehand, or it comes out as unacceptably random. But if you know your god has a tendency to intervene in specified ways, then it's in character for him, and OK.


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## Griffin (Oct 15, 2012)

Everyone can agree that deus ex machina is cheap. No doubt about that.

Divine Intervention can threaten to turn into deus ex machina if it is presented wrong. I think your idea with the black owl has great potential. Since you'll be mentioning it before that scene and as long as that is not the final scene, it can work well. I would leave the mystery of whether or not the owl was real for the readers. Readers love to speculate. 

You also mentioned about the grand finale with the demonic army and the Yumennos. Foreshadow like you have never foreshadowed before. This scene sounds almost like a deus ex machina in the making. If done right, it will make sense to the reader. Since this will be at the end, careful planning must be involved. Perhaps a representative of the Yumennos comes to the MC and brokers a contract/deal? Maybe a religious figure begs for divine assistance? There are numerous ways to present this. But a sudden appearance of the Yumennos might seem cheap. Especially since they seem to be the only ones who can face the demonic army. 

Either way, good luck to you.


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## WyrdMystic (Oct 15, 2012)

Penpilot said:


> That isn't deus ex machina when they come down to wipe out kingdoms etc. To my understanding this is the defintion of it. Deus ex machina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



From that definition - foreshadowing means it is not Deus Ex Machina either. The key for me is in the surprise(!). If its foreshadowed - no surprise - no latin anti-climax.

Yet - as in the article - couple of massively successful uses of Deus Ex Machina – War of the Worlds (the most believable ending possible for that story) and Monty Python’s Life of Brian (because explanation was not required).

Divine Intervention on the other hand - that is something different, something I tend to like. Mainly because I'm a fan of the magical side of fantasy/myth.


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## jrcarney52 (Oct 15, 2012)

Penpilot said:


> That isn't deus ex machina when they come down to wipe out kingdoms etc. To my understanding this is the defintion of it. Deus ex machina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Yeah it is! By this definition the god solves an unsolvable problem, though sometimes in ways that affirm human worth and in other ways that challenge it. For example: two countries are at war with each other, and then a god destroys them both, resolving their conflict. On a larger note, we shouldn't get caught the historical specificity of "deus ex machina". If you're a splitting hairs sort of person, then the concept really only applies to a certain type of historically unique Ancient Greek drama, a situation when an actor is literally dropped onto the stage through a mechanical contraption.


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## WyrdMystic (Oct 15, 2012)

jrcarney52 said:


> Yeah it is! By this definition the god solves an unsolvable problem, though sometimes in ways that affirm human worth and in other ways that challenge it. For example: two countries are at war with each other, and then a god destroys them both, resolving their conflict. On a larger note, we shouldn't get caught the historical specificity of "deus ex machina". If you're a splitting hairs sort of person, then the concept really only applies to a certain type of historically unique Ancient Greek drama, a situation when an actor is literally dropped onto the stage through a mechanical contraption.



Literally, the device used to suspend actors playing Gods above the stage. In literature, a surprise that's only purpose is to move the plot along. One phrase - two meanings.

I think thats the difference between divine intervention and Deus Ex Machina - the lead up. The destruction of Sodom was divine intervention, but not Deus Ex Machina (they were warned).

Some say its cheap. I say the opposite as it takes a lot of hard work to pull off properly. When it is - it can be awesome.


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## jrcarney52 (Oct 15, 2012)

WyrdMystic said:


> I think thats the difference between divine intervention and Deus Ex Machina - the lead up. The destruction of Sodom was divine intervention, but not Deus Ex Machina (they were warned).
> 
> Some say its cheap. I say the opposite as it takes a lot of hard work to pull off properly. When it is - it can be awesome.



Although I think the way you put things here clears things up, I still don't think the distinction between "divine intervention" and "deus ex machina" is worth the effort. Why? For me the important narrative element that these concepts (as defined above) throw into focus is this: a dramatically charged point of contact between the divine world and the mortal world. 

Sodom might have been warned, but I'm sure there can be a really cool story told from the perspective of an ignorant visitor to a doomed city--a merchant, perhaps--who just happens to show up on the day of the rain of fire. He has no idea that this city has angered its god. He's just bringing in a cart of far-flung exotic wares to peddle when the sky starts to get dark. In both instances--surprise or lack of surprise--the key source of drama is the confrontation between the divine and the mortal.


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## Penpilot (Oct 15, 2012)

jrcarney52 said:


> Sodom might have been warned, but I'm sure there can be a really cool story told from the perspective of an ignorant visitor to a doomed city--a merchant, perhaps--who just happens to show up on the day of the rain of fire. He has no idea that this city has angered its god. He's just bringing in a cart of far-flung exotic wares to peddle when the sky starts to get dark. In both instances--surprise or lack of surprise--the key source of drama is the confrontation between the divine and the mortal.



But then the story becomes the story of how some person walked into the middle of said point of contact between the divine and mortal world, and how they persevere and get through the troubles caused by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The drama is not in the confrontation of the divine and mortal, it's in this mortal walking into divine troubles. 

So unless this person has all their problems solved with no foreshadowing, no explanation, and all that sort of jazz, in my humble opinion, it's not Deus Ex Machina.

Deus Ex Machina doesn't really have anything to do with the divine at all. Here's an example of it with absolutely nothing divine involved.

Let say there's a story of a guy who gets into financial trouble and at the end is about to loose everything if they don't come up with 1million dollars by tomorrow. But then, from out of the blue a long lost uncle, never mentioned before in the story, dies and leaves him 100 million dollars. Problem solved. This is Deux Ex Machina at its heart.


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## WyrdMystic (Oct 16, 2012)

Penpilot said:


> Let say there's a story of a guy who gets into financial trouble and at the end is about to loose everything if they don't come up with 1million dollars by tomorrow. But then, from out of the blue a long lost uncle, never mentioned before in the story, dies and leaves him 100 million dollars. Problem solved. This is Deux Ex Machina at its heart.



Yeah - it can be any object, event or person. Bacteria in War of the Worlds. A space ship in Life of Brian etc etc


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## jrcarney52 (Oct 17, 2012)

Penpilot said:


> Let say there's a story of a guy who gets into financial trouble and at the end is about to loose everything if they don't come up with 1million dollars by tomorrow. But then, from out of the blue a long lost uncle, never mentioned before in the story, dies and leaves him 100 million dollars. Problem solved. This is Deux Ex Machina at its heart.



Oh, o.k.! This makes sense to me. You're talking about "deus ex machina" as a narrative device and not a theme. I'm zeroing in on the "idea" of the divine interacting with the mortal. Hmm...


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