# What is the difference between young adult and adult fantasy?



## SeverinR (Aug 26, 2013)

MY MC is young, but I don't want it to be young adult fantasy.

My new project will tell the story of an orphan elf that is adopted by a mage.

I want it to be the beginning of a series of books.
Also part of it will explain my magic system as the MC learns magic and adapts to being the only elf in a rich human household.
Deal with racism (elf versus Dwarf, small part human vs elf), deals with religion (elf), 

Is the difference between YA and adult fantasy only on the violence? I plan to have several deaths in the book, to show how violent the world is, including the death of her parents. I don't plan on it being a "Hallmark" story or after school special based in fantasy.

What should I avoid or be sure to provide to ensure my story doesn't fall clearly into young adult? 

Will have: violence,including death, nudity (probably no sex), probably will have some foul language.

Working title: "Mage apprentice and Koruthan's deadly tombs"


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## SeverinR (Aug 26, 2013)

I think there was another thread similar to this, but couldn't find it with search.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 26, 2013)

A while back, I asked this question in a forum frequented by YA writers, thinking that vocabulary, language, and/or violence should be factored in for the market.  Per the denizens of that thread, the only definition that matters is as follows:

YA features protagonists written from the point of view of a young adult instead of from the view of an adult writing a young adult character.

I found it to be a most useful definition.


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## Steerpike (Aug 26, 2013)

Yep. I agree with BWfoster. I've seen plenty of fairly explicit sex and violence in YA, as well as mature themes, so the identity of the protagonist seems to be the chief distinguishing factor. The themes and conflicts should also be those that are relevant to a YA audience, but frankly that could be just about anything.


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## Zero Angel (Aug 26, 2013)

Agreed with the above. Also, you know, YA fantasy is a pretty great market (although you definitely want a niche market to stand out in). It's not a bad thing to be in a more mainstream market. It means you will be exposed to more readers (although again, might be harder to stand out).


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## SeverinR (Aug 26, 2013)

Thats good, I will worry about it less.

IF it is so close, then switching between YA and adult wouldn't be much of a problem as long as the two are plainly marketed?

Adults read YA, and some kids read adult fantasy. (ok alot of kids)

(Its been a while since I got inspiration, this WIP came into existance over the last 3-4 days.(Vacation gets the juices flowing?)
I've been trying to think of a way to make a story that would include how the basic magic system worked, but it never connected as it did this weekend.)


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## johnsonjoshuak (Aug 26, 2013)

If you look up Brandon Sanderson's lectures on youtube, he gives a pretty great definition of YA. I don't remember it off hand, but its there someplace.


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## wordwalker (Aug 27, 2013)

You _have_ read the definitive piece, Mr. Chuck Wendig's 25 Things You Should Know About Young Adult Fiction, haven't you? (This may be the one SeverinR mentioned.)


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## SeverinR (Aug 27, 2013)

Q&A of my young main character is:
http://mythicscribes.com/forums/character-q/9624-silsi-gyssecal.html#post132592


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## Addison (Aug 27, 2013)

What is the difference between young adult and adult fantasy? What is the difference between a PG13 and an R rated movie? There-in is your answer.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 28, 2013)

Addison said:


> What is the difference between young adult and adult fantasy? What is the difference between a PG13 and an R rated movie? There-in is your answer.



This answer implies that YA is characterized by lessing violence or "adult" content.  That's not what the majority of voices are saying.  Rather, the prevailing opinion seems to be that YA can have just as much sex, drugs, and rock and roll as adult.


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## wordwalker (Aug 28, 2013)

That's debatable. "YA is YA characters and (first) for YA readers" is the real standard, but you still need to be sure of your market and any publisher you're submitting it to.

(And then, you have to be sure when you say "adult," people don't just hear "porn.")


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 28, 2013)

wordwalker said:


> That's debatable. "YA is YA characters and (first) for YA readers" is the real standard, but you still need to be sure of your market and any publisher you're submitting it to.
> 
> (And then, you have to be sure when you say "adult," people don't just hear "porn.")



Again, I have no personal experience with this, but I keep getting told by people that do that you can get away with, from a sex and violence standpoint, anything you can in a book geared for an older audience.  In fact, they say that going out of your way to avoid such content, if it results in talking down to your audience, is actually a detriment.


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## Steerpike (Aug 28, 2013)

Addison said:


> What is the difference between young adult and adult fantasy? What is the difference between a PG13 and an R rated movie? There-in is your answer.



I agree with BWFoster that this is not a good way to see the distinction. There is content in YA books that would probably get an R rating on screen.


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## Daenelia (Aug 28, 2013)

Having sold books I saw the market for YA emerge. That doesn't mean there were no books for teens before that, it just seems that mainly since Harry Potter teens were discovered as a target group for a particular kind of book, which would _also_ mbe read by adults. And adults do not want to read 'kids books', which is why HP was published in a so-called 'adult' edition as well (oh, the questions I was asked about this 'does that mean it has more violence/sex/bad bits in it?' As if the children's edition was censored or something!).

Anyway. I do not think there is much of a difference, other than what publishers create. Maybe the languge is simpler and the themes more straightforward, but YA fantasy is not just for YA, and kids can still read Raymond Feist if they like.

If you target your story or book at a YA audience, then write with them in mind. That's all you need to do, I think.


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## SeverinR (Aug 28, 2013)

johnsonjoshuak said:


> If you look up Brandon Sanderson's lectures on youtube, he gives a pretty great definition of YA. I don't remember it off hand, but its there someplace.


Brandon Sanderson Lecture 2: YA Genres (4/5) - YouTube
Brandon Sanderson Lecture 2: YA Genres (4/5)


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## Ophiucha (Aug 28, 2013)

There is, though, definitely a limit on the material you can include without pushing the YA label.

Yes, you can have sex scene, but it's not likely going to be explicit or have extremely questionable consent issues (including if one partner is under the age of consent while the other is not, or anything you'd see in _50 Shades of Grey_). LGBT sex scenes are also often restricted to lower levels of explicitness. I've read YA sex scenes that focus more on the sound of the bed squeaking and the wood scratching against the floor than anything actually happening on top of it. 

Yes, you can have drugs and alcohol, but we're talking soft drugs, fantasy drugs, and usually a big red 'DARE' symbol flashing over the whole page. The only illegal drugs are going to be the, uhum, 'medicinals'. You're not likely to see the kids in YA fiction doing anything you'd see on _Breaking Bad_.

Yes, you can have foul language, but Holly Black got a lot of flack for her use of the f-bomb a few too many times in _Tithe_, with teenagers and parents alike saying it was more appropriate for a college-aged audience.

Mostly, just remember that there are publishers who have restrictions on sex, drugs, and rock n' roll violence and that how much you have could easily be the deciding factor between being put in Fantasy and being put in Young Adult. It's not as restrictive as a PG-13 label, perhaps, but, y'know, you couldn't just rewrite _American Psycho_ with a sixteen year old girl as Bateman. Though you should, because that'd probably be a pretty awesome story.

Also, I'd say that when it comes to _high _fantasy, I find that it is generally more likely to be put in the SFF section regardless of what it's published as. Eragon, Harry Potter - that gets put in YA. But those are kind of famous. Lots of the lesser known YA fantasy just ends up in fantasy. _Un-Lun-Dun_ by China Mieville, _Song of the Lioness_ by Tamora Pierce, those books by Garth Nix I can't remember the name of. Always in SFF in my local bookstore.


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## Steerpike (Aug 28, 2013)

I don't know, Opiucha. I don't things are as clear-cut as they used to be. For example:

(spoiler tags for language)



Spoiler: Language



I read a YA fantasy where one girl comes upon another giving a boy a blowjob in the halls of their school. The characters are sexually active, and discuss sex, sometimes in explicit language. In Pretty Little Liars, Aria (who is supposed to be sixteen) is having an affair with one of her high school teachers, which brings up consent issues as well as teacher-student ethical issues (and the relationship is romanticized).

Other YA novels deal with hardcore drug use (meth or heroine in the one I am thinking about), and sexual favors that amount to prostitution to obtain drugs. They deal with rape, suicide, murder, mental illness, and just about any other subject you can think of, and it's not all sanitized.

Teen/YA readers engages in sex (some of them), some do drugs, many more are affected by drug use. They curse and use explicit language. I think that's all fair game in YA novels these days, from what I've seen. Certainly, any given reader (or her parents) might object, and as you said publishers will have their own ideas of what is suitable or not, and that will vary from publisher to publisher. But as for subject matter, even when more graphically depicted, being off the table, I'm just not seeing it.


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## dhrichards (Aug 29, 2013)

*Thanks*

This is a great tip and does address some of my concerns. I don't have anything against YA but I also fear getting trapped in some sort of rule regime for YA (can my characters drink liquor? etc?) but after reading Steerpike's post I think there are few rules

YA features protagonists written from the point of view of a young adult instead of from the view of an adult writing a young adult character.


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## Zero Angel (Aug 29, 2013)

Ophiucha said:


> Also, I'd say that when it comes to _high _fantasy, I find that it is generally more likely to be put in the SFF section regardless of what it's published as. Eragon, Harry Potter - that gets put in YA. But those are kind of famous. Lots of the lesser known YA fantasy just ends up in fantasy. _Un-Lun-Dun_ by China Mieville, _Song of the Lioness_ by Tamora Pierce, those books by Garth Nix I can't remember the name of. Always in SFF in my local bookstore.



Just wanted to chime in that although it may be in adult fantasy in your bookstore, pretty sure the Library of Congress codes has "Un-Lun-Dun" in YA (just picked it up at my library the other week in the YA section).


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## SineNomine (Aug 30, 2013)

Aside from, as mentioned, the general tone of voice used from the perspective of the main character, I would've said "Length" in the past though obviously that barrier has been broken down somewhat.  However, in general it remains true that YA books average much shorter lengths than adult novels.  You're going to have a hard time selling a YA book over 80k or so words.  You can definitely do it, but you may have to fight for it and accept that both agents and editors will want you to chop it down to that size if at all possible.


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## Chessie (Aug 30, 2013)

^^ Why so negative? Selling books is difficult but there's a thriving market for YA.

I recently finished reading a YA fantasy novel. It was 291 pages, with simple writing and just enough detail to keep you informed. It was all right but the difference between it and adult seemed to be life themes. Could just have been the author's preference but the only kiss in the book was one on the cheek and even that was a big deal. Everything seemed toned down. Definitely not my cup of tea.


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## Ophiucha (Aug 30, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> I don't know, Opiucha. I don't things are as clear-cut as they used to be. For example:
> 
> (spoiler tags for language)
> 
> ...



Ha, yeah, I certainly know teenagers engage in quite a bit of that - I'm only 21, it wasn't that long ago that I was a teenager myself. But it was also not that long ago when the majority of what my friends read was YA fiction, and... yeah, there are exceptions to any rule, but they sort of have to be relevant to the plot/themes of the novel. Like, a story could be about slaying dragons and seducing vampires but still feature casual cigarette smoking and underage drinking and a little mary jane. But anything harder? It's rare to read a book about those drugs which isn't explicitly dealing with drug addiction, drug use, someone dying from overdose, etc., etc.. 

Presuming it's anything like the TV show, Aria's entire storyline basically revolves around her romance with her teacher.

In the context of YA _fantasy_, it is _very_ rare to see these issues tackled because the plot of the story is almost always about fighting some evil organization or collecting a bunch of macguffins or choosing which sexy supernatural beast to sleep with. 'Adult' issues can be tackled in YA, but they almost always have to be the focus of the novel in order to work. Like with non-white and LGBT characters. There are entire subgenres dedicated to those stories, about racism and homophobia/transphobia, but YA fantasy doesn't tend to tackle them because those are 'heavy' issues that kind of get in the way of the dragon slaying. Which is sort of silly because you don't have to tackle those in every story about gay/black/whatever people but that's a different rant.

It's kind of nuanced and is more context than content, but there are definitely lines that can be crossed.


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