# How deep are your worlds?



## Elder the Dwarf (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm attempting my first real work in my free time.  I've worked on designing my world and I was just wondering how in-depth your worlds go.  I saw the topic about time and if you really think about it, a new world would require a new time system (days, months) and even the one o'clock, two o'clock is questionable.  Many words would have to be taken out, curses, and other things I can't think of.  And for all the British people on the forum, even bloody couldn't really be used.  It can get really frustrating at times when you think of the scope of it all.  To what extent do you guys manufacture your new worlds?


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## ascanius (Oct 18, 2011)

Hmm, currently I have 38 pages of various notes for almost everything from the mundane like smithing a rare metal to population demographics for certain cities and regions along with trade and currency exchange.  I have a 1.22Mb map file where I can zoom from a view of the entire continent down to details at 500% zoom, I might be quarter of the way finished right now.  I think it depends how how obsessive, and detailed oriented you are.  I like the details and knowing what each and every aspect of the world is.  Organizing it all into the story, and creating an outline is where im having trouble.  In the end it is down to how much detail you want.


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## Ghost (Oct 19, 2011)

It depends on which world. My main project AG is very detailed. Not so much yet as far as mapping or individual people, but the countries, languages, and myths are the things I'm tackling first. It's meant to be a world where I can set many novels. The novels aren't related except that they take place on the same planet. Some of my characters are nomadic tribesmen in ancient times, kings in their equivalent to the middle ages, and mechanical geeks after a series of technological revolutions. So I have to build the world across its history and across different continents. I get sidetracked by the research if I worldbuild as I go, so I might as well immerse myself in it.

I have other worlds that aren't so involved. In those ones, I tend to be vague about things like time unless it's important to the plot or set in an alternate history. It doesn't seem necessary to introduce something like that in a standalone novel. Some of them only span a couple of towns or one city. I detail what's relevant to the plot and a little extra to enrich the world, but I don't go overboard.


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## Devor (Oct 24, 2011)

I remember a YouTube video about Clown Philosophy and the idea that if every possible universe existed, then there would by definition have to be a world which was different in every possible way from ours except for one single constant.  In the video the constant was that everyone in our world and theirs still hates the clown; in my world, it can be that bloody is still a curse word.  I'm not going to worry about it.


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## MichaelSullivan (Oct 25, 2011)

I personally don't like deviating too much from standard conventions - in other words my world has 4 seasons and time similar to our world (three meals a day with one at "mid day"). Where I concentrate on is political systems, relgion, and history.  The important thing for a new writer is to let your world building be a 'backdrop' to your story. It should be revealed organically through your plot and characters - don't try to impress your reader with all the work you did - Most of my world building never reaches the page but it does develop a clear idea in my mind of where things are taking place.


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## HÃ«radÃ¯n (Oct 25, 2011)

I have unique time systems, language, history and even different skin colors for each of the four races of humanoids, and they four can inter breed (though what comes out depends entirely on which race the father belongs to) also their skin color is depended on what color the mother was. as for swearing, I use ****, cunt etc, but nothing beyond that really.


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## monty (Oct 25, 2011)

My worlds aren't that deep because I'm hoping to introduce 12-16 year olds to Sci-Fi in something that's easy to read. I remember when I was younger _The Hobbit _and_ Lord of the Ring _series just seemed too involved to try.


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## Chilari (Oct 25, 2011)

Looking at some of the above responses, it seems I fit into the shallower end of the scale of worldbuilding. I create worlds to fit the stories, not the other way around; if I can set other unrelated stories in the same world at some point in the future, then fine. It'll save me work in the future. But the story or the character comes first, and the world is created to enable me to tell the story I want to tell. If I need a city that has a particular problem with immortals, I create the city and I create a religion that'll give them that prejudice, or a history with one immortal in particular (or both, with the religious bit developing from the history bit). If I need something sinister and inhuman in the woods for my protagonist to face, I create some form of fae folk and some mythology surrounding them to justify their poor reputation.

In general, though, I do not have several languages made up, and half a dozen cultures of places my characters never visit, and histories for every major city within five hundred miles. As far as languages go, I create names for them and decide where they are spoken, and maybe give them vague sound groups for naming characters who speak that language, but I don't create languages or decide that certain prefixes or suffixes mean particular things or anything like that complex. In terms of other cities or places which might be referred to by characters, they get a name and a vague location (150 miles NW of where ever my characters are, for example), and maybe I'll decide which language group they fit into and which religion they follow if the city is mentioned more than once. As for maps, I have a vague idea in my head of where places are in relation to each other and what kind of landscape they occupy - mountainous, river valley, plains, coastal, etc - and that's about it. If I draw a map, chances are I'll lose it, forget about it, or redraw it to suit the needs of the story at a later date.

As far as making the world different from Earth goes, my policy is to keep things simple. Readers will have trouble remembering that there are two moons and nine days to a week unless it's a week with two full moons and then it's a ten day week and months are either 25, 26 or 27 days long depending on the moon cycles and this religion worships this moon and that religion worships that moon and the other religion worships the sun and there are these cities and these houses and prominent families and all these factions and these political issues and ... urgh. I either don't use the term "week" at all, or assume it's 7 days. Same with months. There is one moon, the year lasts 365 days, trees grow, people farm wheat and beans and peas and carrots and keep cattle and sheep and chickens and bees and city industries include smithing, carpentry, potting, basket weaving and whatever else you might find in a culture which has yet to experience an industrial revolution. Any differences there are, as regards magic, unusual critters, society, history, religion and politics, I try to introduce fluidly, as it pertains to the characters and the plot.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Oct 25, 2011)

I'm really into intense world-building because I want to develop as rich a setting as I can for my story. That said, I've decided it might be best for me to relax, at least until I've finished my first draft. I can always world-build as I go, and then if something doesn't match up properly, I'll edit either the story or the world to fit after I've got that first draft down.


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## Elder the Dwarf (Oct 25, 2011)

Devor said:


> I remember a YouTube video about Clown Philosophy and the idea that if every possible universe existed, then there would by definition have to be a world which was different in every possible way from ours except for one single constant.  In the video the constant was that everyone in our world and theirs still hates the clown; in my world, it can be that bloody is still a curse word.  I'm not going to worry about it.



Don't take what I said the wrong way, I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm just saying that since the word has roots in one of our world's specific religions, it doesn't fit historically.  You can certainly use it anyway, and there might even be a cool way to explain the word's significance to your cultures.


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## Lia-Art (Oct 27, 2011)

I've only just started creating my world, but I'm planning on making it extermally detailed for two reasons:
1. I love the creation proccess involved in making a detailed world and
2. I want to set many completely unrelated stories in the same world that way I only have to make one world and I can put alot of effort into one instead of a pathetic amount of detail into several


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## Laughing_Seraphim (Oct 27, 2011)

I like to build a pretty robust world, usually fitting in an already robust universe. I don't always give 100% of that to a potential audience, but it is already there.
For instance.
GoogledieBop: Gray skies, always gray. The dirt has oddly colored patches because of a bacteria unique to the world. This in turn alters the color of bones and teeth. Animal droppings are oddly colored.
My entire story takes place inside a mental institution there, so the coloration of the ground, through a window will be described in fair detail. The animal droppings, probably not so much. The world you build beforehand, and the world you write don't have to match up exactly. The gray sky would contrast well with hues of pink and orange dirt patches swirling up a hill of bright green grass. That in turn would contrast further from the dismal white and gray of the looney bin walls. 
Obviously in building the world the gray walls, gray sky and colorful outside world are relevant for the imagery. Maybe hospital workers in deep red uniforms, or blue teeth as well. Contrast. The animal droppings, the bacteria, probably aren't anything the READER needs to know for THIS story. If the sequel is about a scientist trying to discover why everyone is going insane, you as the writer already know that it is a mutation in the bacteria caused from the way it grows in animal droppings.

So, yes, I personally try to make my world very deep ahead of time.


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## Laughing_Seraphim (Oct 27, 2011)

Lia-Art said:


> I've only just started creating my world, but I'm planning on making it extermally detailed for two reasons:
> 1. I love the creation proccess involved in making a detailed world and
> 2. I want to set many completely unrelated stories in the same world that way I only have to make one world and I can put alot of effort into one instead of a pathetic amount of detail into several


+1 Little brother or sister.


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## Zak (Oct 28, 2011)

Readers like when they see you put a lot of work into creating your world. I think you should read at least one book from The Watergivers Series by Glenda Larke. She did an amazing job at creating a fantasy world.


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## MichaelSullivan (Oct 29, 2011)

Zak said:


> Readers like when they see you put a lot of work into creating your world. I think you should read at least one book from The Watergivers Series by Glenda Larke. She did an amazing job at creating a fantasy world.



I think it is a matter of personal preference. Personally...I prefer not to "see" the work you put into it. The world building should be seemless and invisible and brought up in context (again my preference) but others, as you noted, do want to "see" it.


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## Devor (Oct 29, 2011)

A lot of old writing spent time trying to educate readers on the technical minutia of what they're talking about, Moby Dick comes to mind.  Today I think most readers find the endless education a chore and a hindrance to the real beauty of what's happening in the story.  Books didn't used to compete with television, internet or even a diverse nightlife.

Using Tolkein as one of everyone's favorite two examples, he mixes some excessive detail into the works and shoves a most of it into the Appendices.  I would rather include incredible detail in very subtle, quick ways.  A five-word description here, an intuitive-sounding name there, maybe somebody explains it in a paragraph later on, and a little narrative history fills in the blanks as needed.  I mean, in a well developed world there's going to be more of these details than fit into a prologue.


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## TWErvin2 (Oct 29, 2011)

MichaelSullivan said:


> I think it is a matter of personal preference. Personally...I prefer not to "see" the work you put into it. The world building should be seemless and invisible and brought up in context (again my preference) but others, as you noted, do want to "see" it.



I'm with Michael Sullivan on this one.

There isn't a problem with having a detailed world created, but 'showcasing' it through the novel can be a major pitfall. The vast majority of the detailed histories and cultures and family lines and revolutions and counter revolutions, etc. will never make it to the pages of the novel. Most readers are there for the story. 

Having a well-developed and consistent world in which the characters inhabit and move about, where the plot and action occurs is great. The world should be a vehicle to 'showcase' the story.


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## Dreamhand (Oct 29, 2011)

Lot's of exceptional and diverse observations in this thread!  

As a world-building addict (admitting to the problem is the first step) I completely empathize with the delight and wonder of building a rich, complex world.  The nuance and relevance of each minute detail seems give the world weight and substance and we take great delight in (for example) knowing exactly why the days are only 20.34 hours long or the life cycle of the trilium worm in the context of salt-bog ecosystem.

One caution I would offer (and one that I've remind myself of time and again)... _world_-building is NOT _story_-building.  As many commenters have pointed out, character and conflict are the foundation of most successful storytelling.  I'm an advocate of the world being as much a character of the story as the walking talking beings, but even that is a subjective choice.  

I agree with what many have observed... the amount of detail is only relevant in the context of the story you're telling.  If I catch myself leading off a thought with "Wouldn't it be cool if...", then I know I need to tread carefully.  "Wouldn't it be cool if dragons could talk?"  The answer as a world-builder is almost always "yes!", but as a writer, I think the answer almost always has to be "no."  Those minutiae of fact or fancy are utterly irrelevant unless they serve to drive your story forward.  

As writers, we have precious little time to capture the hearts and minds of our readers, and we won't do it with facts and figures or exhaustive histories or a complete re-rendering of the periodic table.  We CAN however, create character's with talents and flaws and fervent desires and then place them in a world that feeds and amplifies the drama of those desires.

I mean... we ARE fantasy writers, right?  Magic and gods and relics and spirits and such are the threads of the tapestries we weave.  But those fantastical elements are not what's "cool" about our worlds.  It's the stories that evolve FROM and IN those places that capture our imaginations.  As fantasy writers, we've allowed ourselves the freedom to build worlds where the metaphors of heroism and villainy are bold and tangible... so use them to tell tales of equal scope and grandeur.

I recommend (as others have) to first decide what your story is.  What themes and conflicts, what ambitions and desires are going to fuel the fires of your characters?  Once you know those details, then build a world that raises the stakes, cranks up the danger and the drama, and makes the attainment of those ambitions that much more perilous... and essential.

Weave the world INTO the story, make it a character as well as a setting, and hold yourself to the same rules you would any character in terms of page time and word count.  And, for god sake, SHOW us, don't TELL us.  Reveal _through the story _those wonders you've devised.  If you want to share the wonder of the life cycle of the trilium worm then make it relevant... to save her daughter, the hero must have an herb that only grows in the salt-bogs of Madrashur, but the herb has withered because trilium worms (providing essential nutrients to the rare herb) are an essential component in the magic of the Urthraug priests and has been harvested exclusively for their use.  NOW we have conflict!  Now the trilium worm is interesting and relevant.

I love building worlds... but I always have to be careful not to confuse an awesome world with an awesome story.  While the two are not mutually exclusive, one does not necessarily imply the other.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Oct 29, 2011)

Dreamhand said:


> Weave the world INTO the story, make it a character as well as a setting, and hold yourself to the same rules you would any character in terms of page time and word count.



I more or less agree with your entire post, and I think the whole topic can be summed up as follows:

Most readers will be turned off by excessive details about your world. _Some_ readers love that sort of thing, but not very many. _Very few_ readers will be turned off by only having a moderate amount of detail. If your goal is to maximize readership, go for a moderate amount of detail, and weave it in; infodumps should be short and minimal, and _always_ work better in the context of informing characterization and story.


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## MichaelSullivan (Oct 30, 2011)

Dreamhand said:


> Lot's of exceptional and diverse observations in this thread!
> 
> As a world-building addict (admitting to the problem is the first step) I completely empathize with the delight and wonder of building a rich, complex world.  The nuance and relevance of each minute detail seems give the world weight and substance and we take great delight in (for example) knowing exactly why the days are only 20.34 hours long or the life cycle of the trilium worm in the context of salt-bog ecosystem.
> 
> ...



Very nicely put. I wholeheartedly agree. Well said.


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## Laughing_Seraphim (Oct 31, 2011)

I think balance is key here. Authors who don't put forth enough detail about their worlds are prone to easily forgettable worlds. Books have changed, and so have readers. No doubt the average reader has come to be more a little lazy. There is a line to be drawn between florid or descriptive work and excessively wordy work. 
I think the Terry Brooks novel "The Elfstones of Shannarra" does a really good job of achieving a solid rhythm while still painting beautiful imagery. Shogun, on the other hand can be difficult to get through for even seasoned readers. 
A point to be made is that one of those is something of a classic, while the Terry Brooks book is somewhat obscure.


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## Fnord (Nov 1, 2011)

Elder the Dwarf said:


> I'm only 17 and I'm attempting my first real work in my free time.  I've worked on designing my world and I was just wondering how in-depth your worlds go.  I saw the topic about time and if you really think about it, a new world would require a new time system (days, months) and even the one o'clock, two o'clock is questionable.  Many words would have to be taken out, curses, and other things I can't think of.  And for all the British people on the forum, even bloody couldn't really be used.  It can get really frustrating at times when you think of the scope of it all.  To what extent do you guys manufacture your new worlds?



Well, if you want to be really authentic, the people would have to speak in a completely different fictional language!


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## Elder the Dwarf (Nov 1, 2011)

Fnord said:


> Well, if you want to be really authentic, the people would have to speak in a completely different fictional language!



Haha that was essentially the point of the thread.  Obviously that was overkill, but I was trying to see where you guys draw the proverbial line.  How much should be left similar, and how much should be created?  The conversation kind of took on a life of its own, but I've enjoyed all of the responses.


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## Shadoe (Nov 1, 2011)

I've created a very detailed world. It's got a history that spans a couple thousand years I've got the royal family's timeline set up in detail for the last century or so. I've got a book-sized document that details customs from marriages to games to eating habits.

Most of it never shows up in stories. But it's there. I feel like I have to know my world before I write about it.


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## Laughing_Seraphim (Nov 2, 2011)

Overkill is a matter of taste. Some of my favorite books integrate alien units of time and other measurements. Unfortunately there isn't actually a solid and universally accepted amount of description one would use. The thread on exposition might help here.
be aware this is the part of the world that gets put into the script. The worlds I dream up are always far larger and more complex than what goes into the book. The last thing I really wrote I had staked out units of time, how paper goods were made, religions, marriage rituals, methods of commerce, local agriculture, pornography, bias against gays and orphans, gender roles, political system, planetary weather and layout.
However, that didn't all get covered in the writing, or to the extent it was covered in the build. That planet alone I have 4 or 5 different races that aren't covered at all or mentioned only briefly. I could likely write another novel starting from the errata therein and the world would be consistent across two hefty tomes written years apart.
The best part if, in setting up the world I had a couple of major plots lines (challenges) present themselves from out of the aether where ink and paper met.
World(universe/domain) and Character building is one of the best creative development tools I can think of.

Look at P.E.R.N., a well known series of novels that emerged from a single acronym, which led to the creation of a world, characters and TONS of stories.


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## Terra Arkay (Nov 3, 2011)

It's pretty simple at the moment but I'm developing on it, It's going to be one deep world...


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## Worldbreaker (Nov 5, 2011)

I love world building, so my worlds are pretty in depth. It just depends on how much writing I want to do in the world.


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## Hans (Nov 6, 2011)

Most of what I could say has already been said. This is a forum for writers, so I don't expect most worlds here to be much deeper than the story needs it to be. That is the right thing to do for story authors.

I like my worlds to be detailed. And I like to read about different worlds. Sometimes even wold "fact sheets".
IMHO a good world needs to be coherent. I don't believe it to be good style to throw elves and dwarfs to Cimmeria (world of Conan the barbarian). It does not fit. Such a "building block world" might be god t write stories fast, but these stories normally don't intrigue me. Maybe I am ruined for these from the link below.
Pure authors might probably not to want to read any further.

For those who really into world building and speak any German I would like to invite you to the German weltenbastler forum at weltenbastler.net. A fair warning: Don't go there if you want to get your story done in reasonable time.
There we have not only story authors, but also role playing game authors, artists that like to draw in their own phantasy world or people who like worldbuilding just for the sake of worldbuilding.


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## FictionQuest (Nov 6, 2011)

I must say that I found a great deal of the Tolkein world building to be too much. In some ways it also left me frustrated. I still want to know whether the Entwives are out there somewhere!


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## Terra Arkay (Nov 6, 2011)

I'm younger than you and I like to go real intense when it comes to world-building, I've planned to have at least 1 year of developing the world.


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## Devor (Nov 6, 2011)

FictionQuest said:


> I must say that I found a great deal of the Tolkein world building to be too much. In some ways it also left me frustrated. I still want to know whether the Entwives are out there somewhere!



If you don't know, you'll probably be pleasantly surprised.  They're in the Shire.  All the clues are there.

I will say, though, I found Tolkein's "World-Building" to be just right for the story he's telling, in the sense there's nothing on the map which doesn't show up.  I find it's the histories which get dumped on you to at times be a little much.  I don't mean necessarily to contradict you, but I think that's a distinction some writers might find useful to make.


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## Jabrosky (Nov 6, 2011)

I don't think my worldbuilding's too deep yet. I have an idea of what kind of cultures and animals I want as well as the history of a few of the cultures, but I have only a crude Paint sketch for a map and little else.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Nov 6, 2011)

> I have only a crude Paint sketch for a map and little else.



You ought to come and show us in this thread! I really enjoy seeing everyones maps.


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## Ophiucha (Nov 14, 2011)

Depends on the story, and the world.

My pet project of the past few years, in spite of the time I've spent on it, isn't particularly deep. It's rich, certainly, with hints of a lot of depth - but I've never decided on what those depths really are. I don't need to, I just need them to exist for the sake of the story. That's very much the case with most of my stories, as well. Most of my stories are developed exactly as much as I need for them to be in order to write the story, and not very much further. How much that is can vary widely. "The Memory of Stone" has no worldbuilding notes at all, because all I really needed to know was a few city names and one major historical event to get the story going, and everything else works well on the fly. "Three, Seven, Queen" has some notes, though it is more research into Slavic mythology than genuine worldbuilding. Again, I named a few nations for passing reference and had to map out a bit of a family tree and a literal map of the city, but there are many, many details that are left completely unknown, even to me.

But, then I have my little "#soundworld" project as it's become known as, where I am setting about nine stories (all of which I have a plan for, because going in without a plan leads to a lot of retconning, I find). That one is getting the whole, Tolkienian shebang. Well, in certain areas. Trade is way, way more important and language is sort of half-and-half. Not doing a real language, not *fully*, but I do need to invent a music notation system, and that involves _math_, so it is infinitely more challenging, in my opinion. Though I do say this as somebody who both majored in linguistics and has number synaesthesia, so my perspective may be grossly skewed.


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## RobW (Nov 15, 2011)

Story building is my Achilles' heel. I'm terrible at it. My approach is to construct characters that are interesting(to me, at least) and then throw them together car crash style and see where all the pieces land. At that point i develop the world around what i have in terms of story content, being careful not to overload or outshine the story itself. Being a fan of the the Sakaguchi/Uematsu era Final Fantasy games, my emphasis is on story content and heart. Everything else is pure mental aesthetics.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Nov 15, 2011)

Really wouldn't depth depend on the story you are telling? If your story revolves around the ancient past that is affecting the current time then history and other things that makes a world deep would by necessity would have to be included in the world building. However if what matters is only the present action and history has very little to do with the story then the best approach would be to only get down the necessary details and a few extemporaneous ones that would make your world feel full.

For example of the first my, shall we say dream work, deals with the events of a war that occurred a thousand years ago with events that spawned that war affecting the current story. Many of the major developments of that war also happen to affect the story. Therefore by necessity of the story I have to delve deeper into the history of the war and create, by extension, a "deeper world".


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Nov 15, 2011)

RobW, that's exactly how I build my stories. Not because I think I'm "bad at story building," but because good stories always depend on quirks of character. Good stories are all about people having agency; confronting dilemmas and making choices. If it makes no sense for character X to do Y, then you either wrote character X wrong, or you're trying to make Y happen regardless of whether it makes any sense for characters to do that.

At the same time, you (usually) need to have a decent narrative structure, building up toward a climax. Not all stories do that but most do, and there's a reason for that. What I think produces the best stories is the process of creating good characters, and figuring out plausible choices they can make that _also_ happen to lead to an interesting narrative.


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## RobW (Nov 15, 2011)

I actually meant to say "world building is my Achilles heel". I have some elements in mind when it comes to character/scenario creation but its usually pretty generic at the point of conception. I'm not saying this is how all stories should be created its just that I personally struggle with it.


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## UnintentionallyHeroic (Nov 15, 2011)

As for world building... I'm kind of feeling overwhelmed as well. I'm 16, and just starting out too. Naming countries and towns and mountains... that's simple. I have different names for the different days of the week, keeping rather cheesily close to our English ones (Mirdal, Thordal, Wirendal, etc.) The 24 hour day remains the same, as do the seasons. But my advice? Don't sit and think on it. Trust me, if you sit there long enough, things will come to your head that you need to come up with and it will KILL YOU until you come up with it. Besides, having a ridiculously complex world is a big no-no in the fantasy fiction department. But, if you don't think so, it's probably for the best, considering I'm freaking out about it as well.


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## Devor (Nov 15, 2011)

UnintentionallyHeroic said:


> Besides, having a ridiculously complex world is a big no-no in the fantasy fiction department.



Welcome to the forum!

I think there's levels of complexity.  I think it's okay to have a hundred different monsters if they're all crawling out of the same demonic warp gate, but it might not be okay to break into histories explaining each one's relationship with the warhost that released them.  To put it differently, I think there needs to be a simple throughline off of which the complexity of your world is hanging.  Anything which doesn't connect to that throughline should probably be cut.  That often goes for stories as well, but that's another post.

Of course it's not always as simple as that, but generally speaking it's a good guideline to follow.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Nov 15, 2011)

The advice I would give is this: Create your characters and your story, and then build the world around them. Building a world first can be fun, but great books are never praised because of the depth of the world if the story and characters are boring.


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## Laughing_Seraphim (Nov 16, 2011)

I am again inclined to state that so much story, so much color, can emerge of its own will out of a well built world. It is truly a matter of taste and good judgement to know how much is too much.
     The world and the story are not the same thing, but the world impacts and frames the story. It wouldn't make sense to set a story about the assassination of Ghandi in 2005. 
     The world of star wars has tons of built in conflict, political lines, race lines, economic issues, good and evil factions. One could take that world, without any prior story and probably write a fantastic story out of it. Imagine the secession of the huts, the trade federation grabbing power in the absence of the empire, a rogue society of storm troopers. Those are just the ones I could think of that weren't already covered in shadows of the empire.
      Again, just because there is a section of space being overrun by rogue toilette-heads, doesn't mean it needs five pages in a story about the hut rebellion. Maybe just a mention if anything. Maybe the storm troopers lend support to the huts, or put their rebellion down when it looks like they might win. All this from having it built into the world.


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## Alva (Jun 24, 2012)

I'm definitely a wordlbuilder but, as many people here, I also do realize the difference between worldbuilding and storybuilding. When I initially began to write, I used to test out different settings and contexts and situations pretty much endlessly. I liked it back then and of course I was only trying to figure out _how_ to write and what did I want to write. What was my preferred style of working? I'm forced to admit that it was a long enough period of plotless snippets. Although useful practice for later on, any of those chapters, settings etc. were truly interesting or valuable without larger context. They remained flat that way.

The way I prefer to write nowadays is to follow the characters. For instance in my current project I follow several characters of varying ages, historical backgrounds and cultural practices. It is a nice “mind- and memorygame” to try to keep up with each one of them and all the while try to picture out the larger picture. Usually I like posing all kinds of questions such as: 

How do they socialize with other people? What kinds of things do they like? Where would they travel if they had a free choice to go anywhere in their world? What sort of places/facilities/shops do they visit on a daily basis and why? If they had a certain sum of money "left over" each month, where would that money go? What would they buy for a fine meal? If they use alcohol how do people around them react if they drink too much? What kind of a generalizations or misconceptions are they prone to?

So, my main emphasize while telling a story is on the culture and how people interpret their culture and other cultures. And all the while respecting the fact that none of the characters is simply a product of their culture but an individual.

Then there is the true worldbuilder part. One of my characters in fact does some of the research for me. He’s scientifically and artistically orientated, and he keeps pointing out all kinds of ridicules and oddities on the way. I like the subtle way of including clues or fantastical imagery, so a lot of the worldbuilding happens while I'm just putting words in a row, so to speak. When I have spare time but I don’t feel like writing, I may at times go on into extreme worldbuilding such as questioning photosynthesis or examining linguistics/astrodynamics/neuroscience etc.

All in all I consider the world of my characters to be full of possibilities for them. I consider worldbuilding to be an organic process after all. I can never know everything. I’m not even going to explain everything to the reader. I can only highlight things peculiar or meaningful to my characters and the story.


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## Eeirail (Jun 24, 2012)

Well in counting,
I am going to list out a few things and how many pages I have.
- Creatures in storyline: 82
- Races in storyline: 180 [rounded up from 178]
- Places of significence in storyline: 36
- Charecter backgrousnds and "fitting": 16 [Needs work]
- Ideology, government, Economy, Religion: 42 [Also needs work]
- Rough drafts and bouncing ideas: 21000388400? [Have a sense of humor on this one]
- Terrain and "game" rationing: 14
- Other: 218

There is more to it, but that is what I have on the three flashdrives I have in my computer tight now. I hope this helps on how in depth i think it should be.


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## Alva (Jun 24, 2012)

Eeirail said:


> Well in counting,
> I am going to list out a few things and how many pages I have.
> - Creatures in storyline: 82
> - Races in storyline: 180 [rounded up from 178]
> ...




Huh. Is there a lot of traveling in your story? I'm not able to give any quick numbers since most of my planning work takes place on analogical paper, but after worldbuilding (and writing) for some years now, the amount of bouncing ideas must be at least as high as yours! : D (I can only tell for sure that I have a few more characters, by the look of it.) "Creatures" sound interesting to me, as always.

Plus, the question of cultures is more varied in my case. I couldn't give any proper number in that matter. Most of my characters live in a multicultural context so none of the main cultures are present wholly. Instead, each character has woven a comfy little net of features they personally familiarize with, from other cultures, around themselves.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Jun 24, 2012)

Elder the Dwarf said:


> I'm only 17 and I'm attempting my first real work in my free time.  I've worked on designing my world and I was just wondering how in-depth your worlds go.  I saw the topic about time and if you really think about it, a new world would require a new time system (days, months) and even the one o'clock, two o'clock is questionable.  Many words would have to be taken out, curses, and other things I can't think of.  And for all the British people on the forum, even bloody couldn't really be used.  It can get really frustrating at times when you think of the scope of it all.  To what extent do you guys manufacture your new worlds?



I've made a world where a day and night lasted for 26 hours, but characters still had to age the same as in the real world, which means shorter years. That was kinda tricky. Needed to do some math to get it all together.

Another tricky thing was that every single culture on this world functioned on a trinary logic basis as opposed to a binary logic basis. That means everyone in this world thought of things in terms of threes -every dichotomy turned into a trichotomy- which doesn't seem that weird until you realise how common it is for humans to think in binary logic. There was no "right or wrong", there was "right or wrong or neither", or "right or wrong or both." There was no yes or no questions, because everyone naturally assumed there would be a third option. It wasn't a matter of thinking outside the box, something they did deliberatelly - expecting a third option_ was_ thinking inside the box. 

At one point a character from Earth tried to explain the concept of coin tossing to one of the natives, who didn't really get it at all, because they didn't make decisions on an "either or" basis.


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## Eeirail (Jun 25, 2012)

Alva said:


> Huh. Is there a lot of traveling in your story? I'm not able to give any quick numbers since most of my planning work takes place on analogical paper, but after worldbuilding (and writing) for some years now, the amount of bouncing ideas must be at least as high as yours! : D (I can only tell for sure that I have a few more characters, by the look of it.) "Creatures" sound interesting to me, as always.
> 
> Plus, the question of cultures is more varied in my case. I couldn't give any proper number in that matter. Most of my characters live in a multicultural context so none of the main cultures are present wholly. Instead, each character has woven a comfy little net of features they personally familiarize with, from other cultures, around themselves.



There is alot of traveling in it yes, and I am not done with charecter development, those would just be bages of the lowest detail, I have it all in my head just not all wrtten down yet, honestly, I would be better to make a video game rather then a novel but I love the writing and am no good with that stuff so I am here.


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## Alva (Jun 25, 2012)

Eeirail said:


> There is alot of traveling in it yes, and I am not done with charecter development, those would just be bages of the lowest detail, I have it all in my head just not all wrtten down yet, honestly, I would be better to make a video game rather then a novel but I love the writing and am no good with that stuff so I am here.



I sometimes feel that way myself, too. Although I'd maybe choose to make an animation. Many ideas on wordlbuilding in my case come from drawing and doodling and working with visual media. Even from dreaming. (And I also tend to think in pictures...) A few of my characters are very visual as well. But then I love writing and even though the translating process from moving picture to text feels at times jarring, I'm quicker and quicker in getting over it while working, already.

As many people on this thread, I don't find excessive wordlbuilding hindering anything. As long as there isn't any large scale infodumbs included in the text to slow down the story, I enjoy seeing all the work that has gone into creating a vivid and interesting world in hand. I love maps and I really, really enjoyed the extra pages in the end of "The Lord of the Rings" and "The Left Hand of Darkness", for instance. So in no way I'm here to criticize you. On the contrary. My maybe-to-be-scientist character is very intrigued by your list...

Just being curious since I've been giving a thought on this matter earlier. Do you store your notes in the form of separate text/picture files or do you have a specific writing program you use where you can create extra notes while you write?


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## Twook00 (Jun 25, 2012)

Honestly, I would just have to look at my favorite books and see how much is conventional and how much is original.  Did I notice those things before?  Did it bother me?  If a reader has a problem with, say, using a common English curse word, then you might as well throw out the whole English language.  Your characters aren't English, after all.

From what I can tell, most authors pick and choose what they change, or just add twists to things.  In A Song of Ice and Fire, for example, there are still seasons (like summer and winter) but they can last for years, and the characters still live in castles and use swords and believe in gods, despite having a completely different history than our own.  Logically, that doesn't make sense, but I still loved the books.


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## MichaelSullivan (Jun 27, 2012)

Laughing_Seraphim said:


> I think balance is key here. Authors who don't put forth enough detail about their worlds are prone to easily forgettable worlds. Books have changed, and so have readers. No doubt the average reader has come to be more a little lazy. There is a line to be drawn between florid or descriptive work and excessively wordy work.



I agree it's all about balance.


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## Chime85 (Jun 27, 2012)

I find I get obsessed with worlds. On a single world, I would fill entire notebooks on the subject. If there is a history to a town, city or village, you can bet my notes have information on it. 

I know it sounds obsessive, but imagine the encyclopedia, that is alot of trees. My notes in comparrison are a whimsey I admit. But on the other hand, I much prefer a living, breathing world rather than a hand wave of place names and pick pocketed historical civilisations.

xXx


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## Sandor (Jul 9, 2012)

Hi! 

I'm workin' on a world for a mid/low-fantasy series and I'm learning that, even if you have a strong memory (as I do, to be honest), that to bring it to life you need details, a lot. 
I mean: it's not important to describe any single street or city tavern, but you have to plan foods, typical clothes, mannerisms and social behaviour. I would give a look even to average occupations and roles in society. 

I guess RESEARCH is the most important thing and a good 70% of writing something. 
I do believe that characters have to be deep and appealing, but without a serious environment, they'll end up as clichÃ©s. 

I don't agree with the idea to create characters and then develop the world around 'em. I mean: it's important to figure out a basic "cast" of your story and for the series I'm preparing i did it too...but in the end, I develop 'em in a more realistic manner if I have a clear idea of the world in which they're born and grown, if you get what I mean. 

Without a society around us, we're nothing: I try to think to my characters as realistic, living people...and to do that, I've to understand the world they're livin' in, before anything else. 


So, even if I do some "pen and paper" schemes, some scratches and basic "there's X and then Y" types of visual connections, I've learnt that I couldn't avoid a more fluid wolrd building.
Now I've some "strong" and solid ideas and AT THIS POINT, you can move on and keep track of what you've created with keywords, colours or whatever you need to make links. 

So, I'd say:
- think the world as a realistic, deep world, focusing more on a 1000 years history (or the like, you won't need anything more, if the history doesn't request it); 
- do a RESEARCH: think about regional differences, basic races or just about eating, clothing and social life details; start with an EXISTING environment. Get some inspiration from real history is not a crime (it's pretty clear that Martin built up his world starting with medieval england-ish environment. Lancaster/Lannister anyone?). 
- think about the TYPE of story you need and start finding a place for it on your world. 

In the meanwhile, develope your characters: it's like havin' some black silouhettes to give colours to, and the colours are the different angles of your world.


That's clearly a "RPG wisdom kinda thing"...but who cares? 
Cheers.


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## Fluffypoodel (Jul 10, 2012)

I think that it depends on the world that you choose, specifically the scope. if you want to go completely original then you are going to have to really flesh your world out. I think that this approach separates the reader from your world. it would be alien and I don't think that the reader will relate to something that unique. I like to place my world in a similar world to own own. personally I get caught up in the world building (200+ pages of notes for a halfway fleshed pout world) so I don't think its as important to go in depth as it is to have good characters. I think that's the most important part.


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