# POV Shifts: How Many Can You Tolerate?



## Ankari (Jul 26, 2012)

As I'm being hammered by a reader and fellow MS member, a valid question surfaced (among many valid comments).  How many POV shifts can you tolerate?  How frequently can you tolerate them?

A couple notes:


I have 4 current POV shifts with the intention of adding 2 more.
As a general rule, I break my chapters into a day.  All the POVs that do something in the same day are added to that chapter.

Another question.  Would you find it annoying to read a book where you have maybe 3 POVs in one chapter?

Thanks


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## Butterfly (Jul 26, 2012)

It depends on how you handle it, I'd suggest using asterisks, or leaving a blank line between the POVs just to break them off from each other. Otherwise, so long as they don't confuse me, they wouldn't bother me.

My chapters work differently. A different location, a time jump, or a different POV = a new chapter, even if it's only 500 words.


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## Ireth (Jul 26, 2012)

I'm not opposed to POV shifts, especially since I started working on a book with four POV characters and frequent shifts from one to the next. Four is just fine to me; six could be okay. Might depend on how closely connected your characters and their respective plotlines are. Mine, for example, are four people on the same quest, rarely apart from each other and each having a unique viewpoint on their quest and their own relationships with the other three. It's when I see something like A Game of Thrones, with something like eight or nine POVs in the first book alone, and no immediately apparent connection between some of them, that it starts to turn me off.


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## Steerpike (Jul 26, 2012)

I'm with Butterfly. Use as many as you like so long as you do it well and the story is still interesting. I'm not averse to reading something that has a great many of them.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jul 26, 2012)

Ditto Steerpike. I've read loads of books that shift POV frequently (between a dozen or more characters) and it doesn't bother me one bit. *AS LONG AS* it's always clear who the POV character is.


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## SlimShady (Jul 26, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Ditto Steerpike. I've read loads of books that shift POV frequently (between a dozen or more characters) and it doesn't bother me one bit. *AS LONG AS* it's always clear who the POV character is.



Same here and as long as none of the PoV characters seem similar or redundant.


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## Ankari (Jul 26, 2012)

I want to stress that I do it often.  A majority of the chapters will have at least 2 POVs.  Each POV change is clearly marked and the reader will know who the POV is within a paragraph or two.  Are we still on the same boat?


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## Steerpike (Jul 26, 2012)

Ankari said:


> I want to stress that I do it often.  A majority of the chapters will have at least 2 POVs.  Each POV change is clearly marked and the reader will know who the POV is within a paragraph or two.  Are we still on the same boat?



I am. I don't even mind POV-shifts mid-paragraph if handled skillfully. If you are using a break or some other transition, then I don't see a problem.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 26, 2012)

It can be difficult to do it well which is why I tend to focus on one POV per chapter (4 total in my current WIP). However, if it's handled well by the author, POV shifts don't bother me. They just need to be clear. One of the biggest things that will jar me out of the story is to wonder who the POV character is.


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## Ankari (Jul 26, 2012)

I just though of another caveat.  The POV shifting doesn't occur within the same setting.  Character A can be in the tavern while Character B is talking to a noble about an impending attack.  Character C can be in his laboratory making a potion.  All three in one chapter.


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## Rullenzar (Jul 26, 2012)

I haven't been here for a while but I'm almost certain this has been discussed before. Point of View shifting works really well if done right and if your story keeps flowing smoothly connecting dots instead drawing lines over already created lines. 

What I mean by this is as long as your not describing the same scene in two or more POV's it should be fine. Takes some more skill on the authors part however, as he/she must know and keep track of where his characters are and get to during their down times. The best example of great works doing this is some of R.A Salvatores work which i can not remember the titles of for the life of me right now and The game of Thrones.


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## Mindfire (Jul 26, 2012)

Personally, I think that if something requires a time skip or a POV shift, it's probably better off as and important enough to receive its own chapter. However, there are times when I make exceptions. If the different POVs are closely related or dependent on one another, either plot-wise or thematically, then it may be okay to put them in the same chapter. However, I'd put a max at three. Four might be doable, but that'd be pushing it I think.

Is there a reason these POVs can't be their own chapter aside from "they all happen the same day"?


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## Steerpike (Jul 26, 2012)

I suppose that depends on how the author is treating chapters. Some people use chapters to group related events or scenes, some put chapter breaks in the middle of the action to create a kind of cliffhanger and keep the reader interested. Other people seem to shoot for chapters based roughly on word count.

I don't care which approach an author uses. Frankly, I don't care if an author even has chapters in a book. But if the author has established the precedent of switching chapters whenever there is a new scene, then changing POV would seem to warrant a chapter (unless the new POV character is involved in the same scene, I suppose). Seems to me to be more of a stylistic matter.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 26, 2012)

I'll be the lone voice of disagreement as the person doing the "hammering."

To me, the issue revolves around the ability of the author to immerse the reader in the work.  My ultimate measure of goodness of a book is whether or not I could put it down.

Each time you shift POV and each time you end a chapter, you give the reader a great opportunity to stop reading.

Obviously, this doesn't mean that you should not have chapters and always write with a single POV character.  You do have to consider the impact of your choices, however.  

In Ankari's case, he tends to have relatively short scenes, and he shifts POV a lot.  Because of this, the reader, in my opinion, doesn't get a chance to become immersed in the story.

Another consideration is the lack of hooks.  If you're going to shift chapters/POV a lot, you need to make sure you're giving the reader a reason to continue.  Again, in my opinion, he has not accomplished this.

My suggestion for him would be to pick a character and follow his story for multiple chapters to give the reader a chance to get to know him.  Then, switch to another character and pick up that thread.  His current format, a chapter represents a day regardless of which characters are involved, makes the writing choppy.

In the abstract, changing POV frequently may work fine.  In fact, I enjoy some non-fantasy authors who use this method.  It's a hard row to hoe, however.  It takes skill to weave the story effectively and to create the proper hooks.  I'm not saying you shouldn't reach for the stars, but I also have to be honest and say he hasn't made it off the ground.


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## JonSnow (Jul 26, 2012)

This is causing me a problem in my current WIP, too... my preference is one POV character per chapter (though I have read books with multiples, and they were fine). The problem is, it gets difficult to keep the reader from getting confused. And if you break up the POV sections in each chapter (which you should, by using asterisks or blank lines), then you start defeating the purpose of the chapter concept. POV changes are very natural chapter breaks.

I have one part of my book where I am considering putting 2 POV's into one chapter, and its only because this was the chapter where the group of main characters is split up, and the two branches are happening simultaneously, and the actions of one is affecting how the other is being pursued by enemies. Other than that, I think sticking with 1 POV per chapter is cleaner, ESPECIALLY if they are in completely different settings (like one in a tavern, one on the battlefield). If this forces you to break up your "chapter per day" format, I'd say do it. But then again, its your novel, not mine. Just my two cents


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## JonSnow (Jul 26, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> I suppose that depends on how the author is treating chapters. Some people use chapters to group related events or scenes, some put chapter breaks in the middle of the action to create a kind of cliffhanger and keep the reader interested. Other people seem to shoot for chapters based roughly on word count.
> 
> I don't care which approach an author uses. Frankly, I don't care if an author even has chapters in a book. But if the author has established the precedent of switching chapters whenever there is a new scene, then changing POV would seem to warrant a chapter (unless the new POV character is involved in the same scene, I suppose). Seems to me to be more of a stylistic matter.



^ ^ This. More concise version of what I wanted to say.


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## Lorna (Jul 26, 2012)

POV isn't as important to me as the pacing of the text and the way the shifts of POV are used. 

I couldn't read Game of Thrones. Even thought it was well written, it was so slow going, then the moment you'd got into one character you were onto another slow story. 

I've seen shifts POV used brilliantly to add to tension and some that get in the way and completely ruin the flow of the plot. 

Take your example above, someone's in a tavern, someone's discussing an impending attack and someone's making a potion. If all the characters are involved with one another- like the people chilling in the tavern are due to be summoned to join the battle and the person mixing the potion's about to try to poison the noble who's discussing the attack, that's cool. 

If the people in the tavern are off on another mission, and you're using the potion mixing to show exactly happens when nitric acid and hydrogen peroxide are mixed, aaargh, how annoying! I remember reading one of Robin Hobb's Liveships books and there were these awesome scenes with sea serpents and a crazy pirate cut with a really dull story about an arranged marriage. After gruelling on through the boring bits I'd lost the best threads. 

So changes of POV and number don't matter to me. So long as they're linked, tightly and tense.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 26, 2012)

> I couldn't read Game of Thrones. Even thought it was well written, it was so slow going, then the moment you'd got into one character you were onto another slow story.



Exactly!  I agree completely.


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## JonSnow (Jul 26, 2012)

Game of Thrones is an extreme case of POV writing, because every POV happens apart from all the others, and they rarely intersect. Switching POV mid-chapter would seem really unnatural. This was more the type of POV writing I was referring to in my previous post.

It is different when the POV characters are involved with eachother...if the author can find ways to transition without confusing the readers, it can work really well.


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## Butterfly (Jul 26, 2012)

I liked Game of Thrones, I thought it was interesting to see the story from different and varying angles. The only negative I did find, was that on occasion I had forgotten what happened to the same character in his/her previous appearance. A quick recap though was all it took. So I'd say when using that structure, don't leave it too long between appearances, especially when there is info you want the reader to remember.


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## Steerpike (Jul 26, 2012)

I liked Game of Thrones as well. The pacing didn't bother me, because whether there was 'action' or not at any given time, I still found it interesting. I agree, Butterfly, that the books came out far enough apart (particularly the last couple) that I started to forget exactly what was going on.


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## danr62 (Jul 26, 2012)

The only time when I like frequent POV shifting is during a climatic event like a battle and you are jumping from one part of the battle to another to keep the pacing going.


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## Philip Overby (Jul 26, 2012)

I would wager to say that Ankari may be inspired a bit by Steve Erikson (as am I) who tends to change POVs rather quickly.  I think this can be done if your scenes are packed with good stuff.  I think as many POVs that keep the story interesting, then that's all that matters, like others have said.  If your reader doesn't really connect with your characters, then they may grow frustrated that you're shifting so many times so they don't get a chance to connect.  Figure out a way for each of your characters to connect to the reader in some way, then the POV shifts will serve as "mini-cliffhangers."


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## TWErvin2 (Jul 26, 2012)

There is nothing wrong with multiple POVs, and as others have stated, if it's done well.

I would add that while it's fine to have multiple POVs, I believe the author should restrict the number to those absolutely needed to tell the story.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jul 27, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> Each time you shift POV and each time you end a chapter, you give the reader a great opportunity to stop reading.



Indeed; I meant to imply that multiple POVs are not inherently problematic. But it's not something I'd recommend a first-time writer try.


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## Penpilot (Jul 27, 2012)

I'll echo some things. Use as many POVs as you like, but make sure each of them is actually doing something when you include them, advancing the plot or their plot. And watch out for overlapping that adds no new information. 

I've read things where each chapter had 3 pov scenes, one for each main character. But at most only two of the scenes were really doing any real work, and most of the time it was only one. So in theory at least 1/3 to 1/2 of the book was dead weight.


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## Lawfire (Jul 30, 2012)

Ankari said:


> I want to stress that I do it often.  A majority of the chapters will have at least 2 POVs.  Each POV change is clearly marked and the reader will know who the POV is within a paragraph or two.  Are we still on the same boat?



As long as it is clear, I am with you. I prefer a story told from multiple POVs, in general. As long as each POV is needed to tell the story, the total number does not bother me.

Multiple breaks could allow a reader more good places to stop and put the book down. However, if done well, the reader may "just one more" themselves all night long.


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## Wynnara (Jul 30, 2012)

Phil the Drill said:


> I would wager to say that Ankari may be inspired a bit by Steve Erikson (as am I) who tends to change POVs rather quickly.  I think this can be done if your scenes are packed with good stuff.  I think as many POVs that keep the story interesting, then that's all that matters, like others have said.  If your reader doesn't really connect with your characters, then they may grow frustrated that you're shifting so many times so they don't get a chance to connect.  Figure out a way for each of your characters to connect to the reader in some way, then the POV shifts will serve as "mini-cliffhangers."



I'm going to echo this sentiment as well. It really comes down to how invested I am in the characters. If I'm really invested, I can probably tolerate a dozen POV changes. If I don't care, then even two or three is going to bore me.

The way I'm working it in my own novel is that I have the MC POV that acts as a central thread. When I switch POV's it is to people that the MC has crossed paths with already but who have moved on geographically to other parts of the story that I, as the author, need the reader to see. In a way, I'm allowing the character investment in the MC carry some of the weight of these other POVs. 

But again, that's just how I'm working it. I'm personally not a big fan of books like Game of Thrones as I feel there are too many characters to really get the kind of emotional investment that I'm after.


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## Ankari (Jul 30, 2012)

> Multiple breaks could allow a reader more good places to stop and put the book down. However, if done well, the reader may "just one more" themselves all night long.



I think this is what I need to work on; the hook.  I'll be revising my chapters to see where I can make enough changes to add the hooks.  

Thanks!


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