# Has everything been done?



## TheokinsJ (Jun 7, 2013)

The world of fantasy and storytelling is limitless, or is it? I've recently been thinking of what has never been done before, what's new, what's something that is fresh and exciting to the genre, and I've found that I can't think of anything. I mean, good vs evil, the standard clichÃ© stuff- don't get me wrong, I love the lord of the rings and Narnia and Eragon and a great many of these fantasy stories, but I find that I also want something compelling and new. A song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones) is something I have looked at and gone "wow", it is a completely fresh take on the fantasy genre, the surprises and the plot twists drive me to read more- and I find myself comparing my own work to that of greats like Tolkien and George RR Martin and thinking to myself "How in the world can I possibly match that?". I've been thinking of places to go, in terms of writing fantasy from a new perspective, a new and unique story idea that turns the genre on it's head. Yet I think- "What else can be done?", so I ask, do you think this is as far as the fantasy genre can go? Is there a way to make it feel fresh and unique? I suppose the first step is to find out the generic conventions of a fantasy and to change them- anyone know any generic conventions of fantasy?


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## Steerpike (Jun 7, 2013)

Maybe you haven't read enough in the genre. From your posts, it looks like you've got Tolkien-style fantasy or traditional "good v. evil" on the one hand, and then it takes you until GRRM comes along to find something new in the genre?

Have you read Jack Vance, Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock? Have you seen Glen Cook's Black Company books, that turned epic fantasy on its head long before Martin? Have you read fantasies by the likes of James Blaylock or Tim Powers? Have you seen what Joe Abercrombie, or Steven Erikson, or R. Scott Bakker are doing in the genre? Have you seen what Gene Wolfe did with it going back to the 1970s and 80s?

The list could go on and on.

If you find yourself stuck with visions of Tolkien on the one hand and GRRM on the other, my advice is to read more in the genre and become a lot more familiar with it. Yes, there is tons of room to do new and fresh things with fantasy, including within the space of what has come before. The idea that any genre has reached its limit makes no more sense than the idea that fiction in general has reached its limit.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 7, 2013)

You know, the more I talk to readers and writers of fantasy, the more it seems to me that all of the complaints about cliches and tropes and all of the people who think the genre is mostly a bunch of Tolkien wannabes are a result of people just not knowing the genre well enough. Fantasy enthusiasts in general seem to be surprisingly ignorant of anything written prior to 1977 (the year Shannara and Thomas Covenant were published to huge success and made Tolkien-esque fantasy the go to type of fantasy for publishers). Younger people, in particular, tend to be largely unaware of anything published before their lifetime. Which is unfortunate, because there are so many older works that are masterpieces of imagination. 

I can't count the number of times I've mentioned Roger Zelazny's Amber books only to have no one be familiar with them. That's a crime. They're just brilliant. (Granted, I think a mismanaged estate might be partially to blame here. None of Zelazny's works are available as ebooks and that's the only reason why I can imagine.) Gene Wolfe is a frelling genius and hardly anyone knows about him. Steerpike, I can't tell you how refreshing it is to meet someone like you that actually knows all the names you mentioned above. 

Frankly, I think recently published fantasy is a lot less imaginative than it was in the earlier part of the 20th century. I think we've taken several steps backwards in sheer creativity. But I suspect that's mostly the fault of big publishing, which hates to take risks. I really look forward to independent authors opening the floodgates of imaginative fiction again now that self publishing is viable. But until then, try to read some of the classics. Make yourself knowledgeable in your genre. That's the first step to writing fresh stories.


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## Steerpike (Jun 7, 2013)

Thanks, Mythopoet. I was remiss in not mentioning Zelazny myself. And there are so many others, I could keep going on. Tanith Lee, Le Guin, Phillip Jose Farmer, Angela Carter, Cherryh, McCaffrey, Octavia Butler, Sherri Tepper, Elizabeth Moon's Paksennarion books, Robert Holdstock, Emma Bull, Will Shetterly, Steven Brust, Charles de Lint, Ellen Kushner, Marion Zimmer Bradley, all the twisting directions that modern urban fantasy has shot into...and those are just authors I can think of sitting here at my desk. If I wait until I get home and look through my bookcases, I'll have a lot more. These people have all done interesting things in the genre that is neither like Tolkien nor GRRM.


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## TheokinsJ (Jun 7, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Maybe you haven't read enough in the genre. From your posts, it looks like you've got Tolkien-style fantasy or traditional "good v. evil" on the one hand, and then it takes you until GRRM comes along to find something new in the genre?
> 
> Have you read Jack Vance, Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock? Have you seen Glen Cook's Black Company books, that turned epic fantasy on its head long before Martin? Have you read fantasies by the likes of James Blaylock or Tim Powers? Have you seen what Joe Abercrombie, or Steven Erikson, or R. Scott Bakker are doing in the genre? Have you seen what Gene Wolfe did with it going back to the 1970s and 80s?
> 
> ...



I suppose you are right, I probably haven't read enough, most of the books you have mentioned were written well before my lifetime and I've always only ever really read Tolkien and Harry potter and that sort of stuff- I suppose I should get round to reading a few of these and opening up my mind to the wider possibilities.


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## WeilderOfTheMonkeyBlade (Jun 7, 2013)

Just chipping in for the Young people. I was born in 1997, but read the Wheel of Time, Black Company, Lotr + hobbit and Silmarion, Malazan book of the fallen, Dark tower, Lyonesse etc. So we don't just read our lifetime stuff, well I'm basing that on those of my mates who do read, not those of my friends who go and play COD or wander around with silly hats perched on the tops of their heads......


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## Mythopoet (Jun 7, 2013)

WeilderOfTheMonkeyBlade said:


> Just chipping in for the Young people. I was born in 1997, but read the Wheel of Time, Black Company, Lotr + hobbit and Silmarion, Malazan book of the fallen, Dark tower, Lyonesse etc. So we don't just read our lifetime stuff, well I'm basing that on those of my mates who do read, not those of my friends who go and play COD or wander around with silly hats perched on the tops of their heads......



Apart from LOTR, those are all relatively recent works. Try something other than Tolkien from before 1977.


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## A. E. Lowan (Jun 7, 2013)

Remember, young man, we stand tall because as stand upon the shoulders of giants.  Go forth and read the giants.


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## skip.knox (Jun 7, 2013)

Peter S. Beagle, the Folk of the Air (also wrote The Last Unicorn but I like the former better)
Mervyn Peak, the Gormenghast trilogy
One might put Lovecraft in the horror genre but he belongs in fantasy
Robert E Howard, of course, and not just for Conan; to which, add Burroughs (especially the John Carter stuff) and H. Rider Haggard
and all the way back to William Morris, The Well at World's End, and to Lord Dunsany
Fritz Leiber, one of the real pioneers
Jack Vance
L. Sprague De Camp
C.S. Lewis
Ursula LeGuin
and, dying on the eve of Shannara and all that, Thomas Burnett Swann.

That's just a dusting of What Went Before. In many ways, the generation from 1930 to 1970 was quite extraordinary, not least because the whole category of "fantasy" and only just been anointed by the literary critics and no one really knew where the boundaries lay. So their works vary greatly in style and tone.


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## Weaver (Jun 7, 2013)

Mythopoet said:


> You know, the more I talk to readers and writers of fantasy, the more it seems to me that all of the complaints about cliches and tropes and all of the people who think the genre is mostly a bunch of Tolkien wannabes are a result of people just not knowing the genre well enough.



The first step would be just getting people to understand that there is a difference between a cliche and a trope.  Cliches are best avoided entirely.  Tropes... can be and often are used creatively to make something fresh and interesting.  Even Terry Brooks' first Shannara novel, Tolkien-wannabe that it was, had things that were new and different -- at least as far as Tolkien imitators went.  (Cyborg spider thing left over from an ancient war?  Those never walked Middle-Earth.)



Mythopoet said:


> I can't count the number of times I've mentioned Roger Zelazny's Amber books only to have no one be familiar with them. That's a crime. They're just brilliant. (Granted, I think a mismanaged estate might be partially to blame here. None of Zelazny's works are available as ebooks and that's the only reason why I can imagine.)



Huzzah!  Another Amber fan!  *does happy dance*  

Yes, if you haven't read these novels yet, do so as soon as possible.  The first one was published in 1969, I believe (although that could be the serialization that appeared in _Galaxy _magazine), so they're well before the Invasion of the Tolkien Immitators.  And as for the 'all fantasy is full of good-versus-evil cliches' problem... No.  Not here.  Even the other dichotomy often found in fantasy is treated differently in this series.

I don't like the fiction of Gene Wolfe or Glen Cook (although my clone-sibling loves the Black Company novels), but they did write fantasy novels that don't follow the usual 'Shining Hero saves the world from Evil Overlord and his Army of Bad Things' pattern.  If you're looking for non-Tolkienian fantasy, those are more good places to look.


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## Weaver (Jun 7, 2013)

skip.knox said:


> Peter S. Beagle, the Folk of the Air (also wrote The Last Unicorn but I like the former better)
> Mervyn Peak, the Gormenghast trilogy
> One might put Lovecraft in the horror genre but he belongs in fantasy
> Robert E Howard, of course, and not just for Conan; to which, add Burroughs (especially the John Carter stuff) and H. Rider Haggard
> ...



We can possibly blame the success of _The Lord of the Rings _in the late 1960s and 1970s for fantasy fiction becoming so... homongenized.  Lots of readers adopted it as a metaphor for what was happening in the world then -- you know, the old, "the Ring symbolizes the Bomb" thing -- and university students went around wearing "Frodo Lives!" buttons and whatnot.  My mother had a t-shirt with a picture of Bilbo Baggins.  Granted, this was in the 70s, right after the animated movie of The Hobbit came out, but still...  As soon as there was proof that 'stories like _The Lord of the Rings_' could make lots of money for publishers, that's what they started wanting from authors.

(Side trivia -- one of the characters in The Chronicles of Amber read Gormengast... See, even fantasy characters like this stuff.    )

If you only saw the _Earthsea_ movie (I'm sorry...), you really, really ought to read the books.  Totally different story.  Worth reading for the dragons alone, in my opinion.

_The Folk of the Air_... Amusing to people who see the thinly disguised SCAdians.  "Society for the Advancement of Medievalism," indeed!    Really good story, though.  Some elements of it remind me of the things I like about Robert Holdstock's _Lavondyss_ and such.


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## Scribble (Jun 7, 2013)

I listen regularly to several short fiction podcasts. If you want to expand your horizon on fantasy, there's nothing quite like short fiction. Writers can take risks that you don't often see taken in published fiction.

Beneath Ceaseless Skies - Literary Adventure Fantasy

PodCastle

Clarkesworld Magazine - Science Fiction and Fantasy : Issue 81

A few stories I liked this past year:

Beneath Ceaseless Skies - The Scorn of the Peregrinator by John E.O. Stevens
Beneath Ceaseless Skies - Luck Fish by Peta Freestone
Beneath Ceaseless Skies - Sate My Thirst with Ink and Blood by Adam Callaway
Beneath Ceaseless Skies - Armistice Day by Marissa Lingen


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## Philip Overby (Jun 7, 2013)

I've noticed this has become somewhat of a recommendation thread. So here's this mammoth thing that was created a while back:

http://mythicscribes.com/forums/novels-stories/742-fantasy-must-read-list.html

I'll echo what others have said. If you're only reading certain kinds of fantasy, you're depriving yourself of a lot of wonderful, mind-blowing stuff. I try to gorge myself on whatever fantasy that comes my way. I recently even joined the book club at Fantasy-Faction in order to help me get more classics or highly recommended work under my belt. Stuff I've wanted to read, but because my to-read list is so long, it gives me a chance to prioritize. We're reading Ursula Le Guin in July, someone I've woefully put off reading for some time. I'm glad I'm getting a chance to bump her to the top of my list.

Keep in mind, reading outside the genre will give more motivation than reading in the genre sometimes. I'd say Abercrombie's most recent book _Red Country_ was more inspired by westerns than fantasy. And Paulo Bacigalupi is highly influenced by less traditional fantasy and more dystopian realities. The folks doing New Weird New Weird - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia are skirting close to fantasy, but have their own spin on it. 

Has everything been done before? Yeah? Maybe? I don't worry with that too much personally. If someone is a good writer and writes creative, intriguing stories, then I don't so much mind if they're treading on familiar ground.


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## Chessie (Jun 8, 2013)

Ahh I'm loving Joe Abercrombie these days. He's fabulous at telling an enrapturing story. I recommend him for sure.

I loved The Last Unicorn, good to see it on this thread. To the OP, the advice here is great. There are older works that are crazy fantasy...when there were no rules no risks. Fantasy genre (along with fiction) will never die. Its a special genre in that pretty much anything goes, so long as it fits the parameters of the world being written. Think of all that creative freedom! No, you don't have to write Tolkien and GRRM type stories and yes, its all been done but not with your unique voice and ideas behind it. 

Dragons haven't been done enough imo. I will never get enough of them...and that's just one of infinite ideas still waiting to be written in your oen style.


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## skip.knox (Jun 8, 2013)

>Dragons haven't been done enough imo. 

It's funny. I hear it said that dragons have been done to death, or elves or dwarves or whatever.

I never hear it said that people have been written about too much!


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## Chessie (Jun 8, 2013)

I agree skip.knox. Dragons are one of those myths that will never die, and I can never have too much written about them. But it is kinda always the same: unlikely hero turned into dragon slayer. For once, I want to read about the dragon's pov. That would be sweet: "Today, I decided to burn down an entire village. I need not feel guilt, for I have all their treasure."


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## A. E. Lowan (Jun 8, 2013)

Well... as long as they stop making people sparkle, I'll think about it. >.>


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## WeilderOfTheMonkeyBlade (Jun 8, 2013)

Did forget to mention the Iliad( sort of fantasy?),  wind in the willows, Narnia, but apart from those, and maybe one or two others, it seems that I am oddly, and upsettingly devoid of other great fantasy Authors pre 1977- can some one help?????


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## Chessie (Jun 8, 2013)

In addition to Monkey's question, what does everyone think about magic? I don't think its required in every fantasy story, but I still like it in there. I almost think its somewhat dying out.


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## Scribble (Jun 8, 2013)

WeilderOfTheMonkeyBlade said:


> Did forget to mention the Iliad( sort of fantasy?),  wind in the willows, Narnia, but apart from those, and maybe one or two others, it seems that I am oddly, and upsettingly devoid of other great fantasy Authors pre 1977- can some one help?????




Marion Zimmer Bradley wrote a few before 1977. 

Susan Cooper wrote The Dark Is Rising series from 1965 to 1977

Mary Stewart's Merlin Trilogy straddles the 1977 line. Hers is my favorite treatment of the Arthurian mythos.

The Crystal Cave (1970)
The Hollow Hills (1973)
The Last Enchantment (1979)

http://www.amazon.com/Crystal-Cave-Arthurian-Saga-Book/dp/0060548258


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## Weaver (Jun 8, 2013)

_The Dark Is Rising_ (and the rest of the 6-book series) -- really, really good.  But _don't_ watch the movie based on it.  I only took a chance on it because of who played the villian (yes, pun there), and oh was I ever disappointed.

I think we can count any series that _began_ before 1977 as pre-'77 for the discussion at hand.


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## Addison (Jun 8, 2013)

There's two sides to this coin.

The stories of farmer-turned hero, evil god bent on domination, brave knight rescuing a prisoner princess and all of those have been written. 

But they haven't exactly been done. Each writer brings their own tone, experience, characters and overall story. So a story hasn't been told every way it can until it's dull. Heck there are some writers I believe who reach back to the old ways as, quoting my cousin, "It's so old it's new!".

For example we've read the story of a rag tag party setting off to rescue the kidnapped princess right? My brother found a book like that but the catch was the princess didn't want to be rescued. This wasn't "The Enchanted Forest Chronicles". This book was "The Ogre Downstairs".  So whatever you bring to the table is yours to mix and serve. Everyone's eaten chicken before but they keep eating it.


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## Chessie (Jun 9, 2013)

I don't know if these would be considered fantasy but thought I would recommend them on this thread anyway: The Jungle Books by Rudyard Kipling along with Riki-Tikki-Tavi are great reads (somewhat along the lines of Wind in the Willows), also Arabian Nights is wonderful and filled with exotic tales and settings.


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## A. E. Lowan (Jun 9, 2013)

For my two cents, don't just read the classics.  Read the crap - it may surprise you.  Read romances,  Read mysteries.  Read newspapers.  Read cereal boxes.  If your eyes are holding still, read a bill board.

Read.
Read.
Read


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