# Population density, travel, distances, and demographics.



## ascanius (Mar 31, 2012)

Ok this is a difficult topic, and confusing so here it goes. 
First let me explain the setting a little.  Attacks by demons, goblins, and other fell creatures are fairly common, meaning all settlements are surrounded by walls, wooden, earthen, or stone a wall is needed.  Or in some cases there are creative substitutions such as a city on a cliff, or inaccessible.  So.. A small village in a plains area has an earthen wall surrounding it and the people are mostly herders, horses goats whatever.  or In a another area that is more forested the village is surrounded by a wooden wall.  In all cases someone has to man the walls, the people need to be able to fight off attacks, though magic wards are used to help strengthen the walls.  In cities, castles, and other fortifications these walls are extensive ans well built able to withstand attacks from enemy armies and most everything else.  But to clarify, these are not armies but more like lone individual demons, or small bands of demon spawn, or goblins, along with normal highwaymen, and raiders.  That being said a single demon is very very dangerous and almost impossible to kill.

My question is the demographics and population densities of these settlements.  I mean if it is dangerous to live outside the confines of a walled city logically it would mean a large number of people would have to be invested in the construction of a wall to surround a village.  So I would think small hamlets of twenty people working small fields ten miles from the next hamlet would not exist.  Nor would the lone farmers and their families spaced out between villages, strength in numbers.  Or am I wrong would people still risk it and form small communities, or farms between locations.  Given the setting I am unsure just how large a population should be to warrant a town or village.

Second what about the demographics of such a town, would they all be farmers?  There are individuals who travel the small towns making sure the wards are working and all that.  But again I assume that if they are invested enough to build a wall then they have a sufficient population to warrant more than just a shabby inn, and have shoe makers, apothecaries, leather tanners, and the like.

How far apart would these settlements be?  a days journey, two, twenty.  would they be along roads or clustered around the castles of the lords who can protect them.  would it be unusual to find a village in the dense cover of a forest almost hidden?  how dense would settlement dispersal be around such a castle, or city.  

Also some of these nations have much greater wealth than others and are willing to invest in resources to protect their people, not out of a moral ground but simply they produce taxable wealth.  So I would think in these areas people would be more willing to risk it and establish villages in areas more distant from help, that or be willing to build small farms in solitude.  

Does anyone know about settlement density in the middle ages or that of the classical age?  I mean if one were to go from Rome to Veii would the road be settled with small villages and hamlets at a high frequency or would one encounter only a few along their journey.

How would a river or a lake influence such settlements.  I know large rivers would generate a large amount of traffic but what about a smaller river?


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## Telcontar (Mar 31, 2012)

You've got a lot here. I'll address the easier issues first.

In the situation you've described, people _would not_ live alone in the wilderness. If you've got demons, goblins, and various other nasty little creatures wandering about ready to attack anything with a pulse, they will absolutely band together for some modicum of protection. In other words, we're talking hamlets of a couple hundred every few miles. they leave the safety of the walls and work the fields surrounding their settlement during the day. Figure each one is 100-200 people and they are 4 miles apart or so, IF the land around them is mostly arable.

Walls/Fortifications: You might be overstating the difficulty of raising such a defense. A simple wall of wooden stakes is not all that hard to erect, provided the raw materials are close to hand. Stone walls are far more labor intensive, not just because of the difficulty in constructing them, but because stone takes awhile to quarry using pre-industrial methods (ie, a dude and a pick). My question is: if there are demons all around attacking things willy nilly, how do they find the time and means to CREATE new settlements? I hope you have a good idea of how this world situation came about, because that will inform a great deal of the questions you're asking.

River traffic depends on the river. Wide rivers with slow currents like the Nile are very conducive to commerce, because it isn't too hard to go upstream. Other rivers, not so much. A river can be considered navigable if it can be traveled in BOTH directions without too much trouble, otherwise it is only useful for raw material transport in a one-way production chain (think floating cut logs down a river to a timber mill).

My main concern with what you've described is that, in order to survive against these demons that might attack at any moment and are "very very dangerous and almost impossible to kill," _every single_ little settlement you have needs some form of defense that is reliable _against_ such badass destructive monsters, or else people will A) never leave the main population centers and B) will eventually die out all together. 

You've mentioned wards, so maybe that has to do with the solution. Obviously magic is likely to come into play. Just remember that it would be very hard to get people to settle new areas unless they can be assured of relative safety and prosperity (or at least convinced of it, whether or not it's really true).


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## ThinkerX (Mar 31, 2012)

A situation like this, the locals would be hunting high and low for a means of eradicating, or at least fending off the goblins and demons - especially as the alternative would be famine, with plague thrown in for good measure.

Building the actual walls - not so big of a deal.  The old line roman legions used to build an entire fort (earth walled, ditched, and staked) each day - after marching a good twenty miles.  Later on, there were the original freemasons, a guild of artisans/builders that traveled from place to place building all manner of things.


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## Queshire (Mar 31, 2012)

I think one of the biggest things to consider how often the monsters attack and how obvious they are. I mean if it's easy to tell in advance when a monster will attack, it'll be a very different setup then if you could be killed at any time.


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## Saigonnus (Mar 31, 2012)

I agree with most of statements, the population density would be extremely low in a situation like that and the communities fairly spread out. a couple hundred people in one place would often be supported directly by the farmers and herdsmen that reside there and only the excess would go to local markets. I would think in a situation like that even the herdsmen and farmers would be tough people who could employ their fork or scythe as a weapon if the need arose. Perhaps they also keep a bow handy, just like expecting wolves or other predators after their livestock. 

If there is a large city of even a couple thousand, likely there would be some sort of armed forces present and it would be nothing for the mayor/magistrate or whomever to send out patrols occasionally to keep the undesirable critters at least far enough away that the alarm can be raised. Also, they'd likely have some system in place to warn the other communities in the area of a sighting or attack by those critters; whether by a tower with a bonfire (ala lord of the rings), carrier pigeons or maybe even some magical contrivance that serve that purpose. 

Wooden pallisades (like in Braveheart) would be fairly easy to make and when combined with a man-made "moat" or pit with sharpened stakes could hold out against anything short of an army. Rock walls are labor intensive and only works if there is either a huge amount of natural stones or a place to quarry somewhere close by. Earthworks were also popularized when gunpowder began it's rise to power since it had the tendency to slow down the cannon balls enough to not breach the walls. Also was good against shots from a catapult or arrows but a bit easier to breach, especially if you have an overwhelming force arrayed against you.


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## Ivan (Mar 31, 2012)

The distribution of these settlements, that really depends on who came first. If the people were already there when things turned south, they would withdraw to separated pockets of safety. If they had to settle this inhospitable environment, they would all be in one area, maybe two. Either way the settlements would probably be within half a day of the next in the populated regions. It may have to be less depending on the specifics of defensibility.


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## Devor (Apr 1, 2012)

It depends on a lot.  You have options.

But the first question, _how long has this been going on?_  If they're well-adapted to the situation, my first thought is that people would cut the distances between their farms and villages by as much as possible.  That would give the demons less space to roam, cut down on travel times, and provide safety in numbers.  Taken to an extreme, I wouldn't think it unreasonable to see the population forming one giant farm stretched along either side of a river, building a long earthen wall outside the farm, for instance.  They're going to do anything they can to cut down the risks and costs of defending themselves.  I also wouldn't expect a lot of options during travel.  They'd want to consolidate their defenses along specific roadways.  The attitude would probably be, _this is our area, if you leave our area you're just letting the demons have you._

You have to break your head away from medieval Europe for a second.  Castles weren't built to fend off random attacks and wouldn't be effective _at all_ as a defense.  They're expensive, built only to protect a handful of people from revolt or warfare.  A town outside the castle isn't really better off than a town surrounded by forests.  If anything, the castle calls attention to your location and makes you a target.  They'd attack the town just to weaken the castle.

A better defense would be cheap and redundant.  You'd see traps and decoys, multiple rows of wooden walls, and a large open clearing surrounding any settlement so that you would see them coming.  You'd see cellars and shelters and alarm bells.  Tall towers with lookouts and signals.  You'd find hiding spots built into the middle of every farm.  You might see a lot of criminals or livestock tied to the outskirts as an offering - take this guy and that sheep and just go (Note:  Don't feed the birds, they'll just learn to come back to you for more).  Mostly likely, you'd see a lot of small forts everywhere instead of the big castles.

It's true that the safest places would be a city with high walls, but that's another problem.  Cities require a lot of towns and villages and farms to support them, and now those farms and the roads leading to them are under attack and need that extra manpower just to defend themselves.  Unless your agricultural abilities are high, there wouldn't be enough food.  I would expect huge numbers of people to abandon their farms and flock to the cities for the defenses they offer, and then mostly starve to death.


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## Penpilot (Apr 1, 2012)

I agree with most of what's been said above. I'll add some random questions and comments I had. Even though those creatures are common place, are there places where certain creatures don't like going? For example a demon may be attracted to warm environments and shy away from cold ones or maybe goblins don't like water, etc. This would determine where people would make their fortifications. People would tend to flock to the safer environments, leaving the unsafe regions to the creatures. Of course don't underestimate the stubbornness of a people to fight for their homes. 

Also, a walled city isn't the only form of defence. Being isolated and in a small group can work too. Isolated means you're hard to get too, away from the hot spots, and less likely to have an encounter. Being small means maybe you won't have to build a wall or even farm but instead you can camouflage yourself and live off the land. It also means you can easily run and hide if danger comes near. if you really don't own anything, there's nothing for the creatures to destroy.

As for demographics, I googled Medieval demographics and lots of resources come up including a wikipedia page. 

I hope there's something you can use in what I rambled.

Cheers


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