# 'It' as a pronoun



## Gryphos (Jul 4, 2016)

So one of my characters is a beast known only as 'the Ogre', and this character is specifically described as neither male nor female. That's not that strange; I've written gender-neutral characters in the past, and in those cases I've used 'they' and its variants. But in this case I like the idea of using 'It', in order to created emphasis on the creature's alienness, because it is a properly alien creature with no other creature like it in the world in which the story's set.

However, I've noticed that sometimes this can create a bit of confusion when describing the Ogre's interactions with its surroundings, since both it and inanimate objects around it have 'it' as their pronoun.

It's not that big of an issue so far; in most cases I've been able to construct the sentence in such a way as to minimise the confusion and clarify what the 'it' is referring to, but it's interesting to discuss nonetheless.

Are there any examples you guys know of of 'it' being used as a pronoun for a character? Have you considered using it for a character before? What are the issues that arise?


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## Ireth (Jul 4, 2016)

I don't really like using "it" for a character's pronoun, simply because a character is (IMO) a _person_, not a mindless beast or animal. (I've taken issue before with people calling one of my dragon characters "it", when I insist on using "they" -- at least until she is explicitly made known to be female, after which I use "she"). If this ogre can reason and speak, I'd be more compelled to use "they" for one who has no assigned gender.


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## Laurence (Jul 4, 2016)

Keep at it. The great thing about being forced to structure your sentences in certain ways is that you'll never look back on your story and think, "I could've written that differently."


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jul 4, 2016)

Referring to a character as "it" dehumanizes the character and makes the character more like an animal than a being. If the character was a character in their own right, with a personality and awareness, it would be better to use "they." If the ogre is a non-sentient creature, "it" would suffice. 
I have a character that is pretty much sexless/genderless (the species reproduces asexually) but I refer to the character as "he" because the character who's narrating sees him as masculine and he couldn't care less about what pronoun she uses to refer to him. Other characters use "they," (or "it" if they're feeling like insulting him.)


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## Gryphos (Jul 4, 2016)

To clarify, the Ogre is fully sentient. In fact, it's the most intelligent character in the story. I thought the use of 'it' would therefore create a strange juxtaposition surrounding the character. The Ogre is frequently referred to as a 'beast' or a 'monster', but on the other hand, it's mind is far more powerful than anyone else's. And in this setting, the Ogre is such an alien creature, and so incomprehensible in its intelligence that no one knows what to make of, that they're almost unable to comprehend its nature, so to them it is more like an 'it'. That was my rationale, anyway.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jul 4, 2016)

Gryphos said:


> To clarify, the Ogre is fully sentient. In fact, it's the most intelligent character in the story. I thought the use of 'it' would therefore create a strange juxtaposition surrounding the character. The Ogre is frequently referred to as a 'beast' or a 'monster', but on the other hand, it's mind is far more powerful than anyone else's. And in this setting, the Ogre is such an alien creature, and so incomprehensible in its intelligence that no one knows what to make of, that they're almost unable to comprehend its nature, so to them it is more like an 'it'. That was my rationale, anyway.



That actually sounds interesting. It's difficult to give advice having not read your story.


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## skip.knox (Jul 4, 2016)

Can you give some examples of where the pronoun causes confusion? My guess is that a bit of wordsmithing should get you past most of it. The confusion, not the Ogre.


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 4, 2016)

I love this idea. I wrote a dragon for Clichea Challenge that was both male and female, and they (the species) reproduce like earthworms, but I was in FPOV, so I didn't have to worry about pronouns, I used "I". For the other similar dragons my MC encounters, I use the pronoun "it". That felt right to me, and not at all insulting.

In the story I'm rewriting right now, I have dragons that are the same sort of both-gender creatures, so I refer to them as "the dragon" or "it", even though I suppose it's fairly human. And I have pixies in the story, too, that are referred to as "it" because they're like little monsters, rather than humanoid, but again, they have no clear gender. Hm...I never considered this might feel insulting. May I post a couple sentences, to get some feedback, since we're talking about this here?


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## La Volpe (Jul 5, 2016)

I had a villain who was pretty much a monster creature. It had a name and could speak and reason, but had no gender. I also wanted to emphasise the monster aspect, and calling it a "he" seemed to make it seem too much like the humans.

But I had a hell of a time with writing stuff about it. Since it had a name, my head kept inserting "he"s into the text, and I had to constantly correct them into "it"s. Interestingly, I never really had an issue with the "it it" problem (I'm assuming here that you mean e.g. "It picked up a weapon. It examined it.") I think I mostly just inserted the name in sentences where it was a problem.

This also reminds me of Quina in Final Fantasy IX. Since none of the characters can figure out Quina's gender, they refer to Quina as "s/he". E.g. "Where's Quina? S/he left to find some food." It was an amusing way to deal with the problem.

As a final note, all the people saying that one should use "they": How would that work? "Quina picked up a fish. They examined it"? That doesn't seem right at all, what with "they" being a plural pronoun. Am I missing something here?


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## Ireth (Jul 5, 2016)

La Volpe said:


> I had a villain who was pretty much a monster creature. It had a name and could speak and reason, but had no gender. I also wanted to emphasise the monster aspect, and calling it a "he" seemed to make it seem too much like the humans.
> 
> But I had a hell of a time with writing stuff about it. Since it had a name, my head kept inserting "he"s into the text, and I had to constantly correct them into "it"s. Interestingly, I never really had an issue with the "it it" problem (I'm assuming here that you mean e.g. "It picked up a weapon. It examined it.") I think I mostly just inserted the name in sentences where it was a problem.
> 
> ...



Yes, it would work exactly like you said. They is a very common pronoun among people who identify as nonbinary, agender, or otherwise neither male nor female.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jul 5, 2016)

La Volpe said:


> I had a villain who was pretty much a monster creature. It had a name and could speak and reason, but had no gender. I also wanted to emphasise the monster aspect, and calling it a "he" seemed to make it seem too much like the humans.
> 
> But I had a hell of a time with writing stuff about it. Since it had a name, my head kept inserting "he"s into the text, and I had to constantly correct them into "it"s. Interestingly, I never really had an issue with the "it it" problem (I'm assuming here that you mean e.g. "It picked up a weapon. It examined it.") I think I mostly just inserted the name in sentences where it was a problem.
> 
> ...



"They" is gaining acceptance as a singular pronoun for those with non-binary gender identities.


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## skip.knox (Jul 5, 2016)

I think that just defers the problem. There can be situations in which there is some available plural referent, leading again to ambiguity. In a case where Qwerty is the non-binary: "Bob and Qwerty picked up the large fish. They examined it."

Obviously I could just insert Qwerty in the second sentence, but one can envision more complex situations. Pronouns are simply always going to be a trip point for the writer. The farther one gets from "standard" usage, the more trip points will arise. Apropos of which, and by way of illustration, in the previous sentence I also could have used the following pronouns: we, you, or I. The use of "one" sounds stilted and formal, even though grammatically it's the best choice. Each of the three alternatives carry subtle shifts of connotation and, like "one," might be a better or worse choice depending on audience.

There is simply no way to declare a general principle here. Write it, listen to your editor, then make the call.


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## JCAsher (Jul 5, 2016)

I'm having a similar problem in two separate stories. In the first, I have a species of orc/urgal/dispensable minion creatures called rozkod. For the most part, I refer to individual rozkod as 'it,' such as "he briefly considered killing it," wherein 'it' refers to a rozkod. But whenever I introduce a named rozkod character- of which there are several- calling a named character 'it' just seems clunky. Hence, once a rozkod becomes a named character instead of just an angry killing machine, I switch over from 'it' to 'he.' It does work, in a way, because some rozkod, I.E. the named characters, are more intelligent and human than the rest. This way, it's clear that rozkod, for the most part, are just ugly, violent animals that deserve no respect or recognition as functional people, but some of them are very clearly above the rest.

In the other story, I have a dragon named Ragazzah vo K'rath K'rath Corstoll (because long names are an attempt at a comedic motif in that story) who I refer to as an 'it.' But addressing this intelligent being that can think, reason, and plot (and even participate in wordplay and appreciate stand-up improv performances) by 'it' just doesn't feel right at all. I keep accidentally writing 'he' instead of 'it' whenever Ragazzah is shown to be an intelligent being, but I always automatically switch to 'it' when it's being observed by an outsider and regarded as a monster. For instance, I would say, "he laughs at Geoff's wordplay and begins to debate whether eating him is worth it" without realizing that I just used 'he.' And further, I would also say, "Zanros fled dragon descending upon him with flame spewing from its jaws." 

So, if my characters find out that someone originally supposed to be a primal beast is actually intelligent and aware, I would easily switch over to he or she, depending on the character. But calling something 'the monstrous dragon' and 'he' in the same sentence just doesn't sit right with me for some reason.


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## Deleted member 4265 (Jul 6, 2016)

If you're going to refer to your character as an it, I'd recommend having several different ways of talking about it. If you just refer to the ogre as "it" and "the ogre" it could get a little tiresome and/or confusing at some points. I don't know if the character has a name, but if not I'd recommend thinking of at least one or two other ways of referring to it in text such as "the beast" or "the deformed creature" bad examples, but I hope you see what I'm getting at.


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## FifthView (Jul 6, 2016)

Samuel R. Delany's novel _Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand_, from 1984, had a non-standard pronoun system:

_“…‘she’ is the pronoun for all sentient individuals of whatever species who have achieved the legal status of ‘woman’. The ancient, dimorphic form ‘he’, once used exclusively for the genderal indication of males (cf. the archaic term man, pl. men), for more than a hundred-twenty years now, has been reserved for the general sexual object of ‘she’, during the period of excitation, regardless of the gender of the woman speaking or the gender of the woman referred to.”_

I.e., all characters whether male, female, or neutral (the evelm species has three sexes), are referred to as "she," but when speaking or thinking about another, any character can shift to using "he" for that other if a sexual attraction occurs.  

The book was not at all confusing despite this non-standard pronoun usage. 

While using "it" or singular "they" might sometimes be confusing, it need not be if handled well.  Even standard usage can lead to ambiguity and confusion if not handled well.  I do think that special care needs to be taken when using pronouns in a non-standard way, simply because such usage is...unusual.

Delany's book uses his pronoun system throughout for all characters.  This helps in establishing the impression of a cultural reality, the world of the novel.  So I do wonder if having only one "special" character, an anomaly in the world of the book, might severely limit viability for a non-standard pronoun for that character.  If all other characters in the book regularly use "he" and "she" but never the singular "they" for other characters, then having only one character for whom "they" is used might seem like an author imposition and not something organic to the culture of that world.  

"It" may be a special case because the pronoun is regularly used for non-sentient creatures and inanimate items and I'd assume it is used that way by most (if not all) people in a fictional world, already.

Even if other beings like that character are assumed to be in the world, having only the one character might lead to an oddity that sticks out like a sore thumb.  At least, having varied occasions for non-standard pronoun use (other characters who are non-binary gender, even if not main characters) would help to create a realistic fabric for that world's culture.


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## FifthView (Jul 6, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> I think that just defers the problem. There can be situations in which there is some available plural referent, leading again to ambiguity. In a case where Qwerty is the non-binary: "Bob and Qwerty picked up the large fish. They examined it."



What if Bob is a non-gendered ogre?

_Bob and Qwerty picked up the giant fish.  It probably couldn't feel the rough scales with its calloused hands, but they did and almost dropped their end from shock.

Bob growled. "Come on, keep it up. If we don't move this, we'll never get past the bend."

Qwerty struggled to maintain their grip, feeling the scales bite into flesh. The fast moving though shallow river didn't make the job easier.  Not for the first time, Qwerty wondered how a fish this size ended up in a river this size, then forced the thought away as they almost stumbled over a large rock on the river bed.

Bob growled again.  It simply couldn't understand how a tiny human wasn't a brawny ogre, although its nose pricked up at the scent of blood leaking from under their side.  They'd need to take care of that, quick.

Reaching the bank, Bob threw its side down, and they felt skin rip as the whole fish tumbled beside the oversized canoe.

"Pull the canoe in.  I'm just going to wash my hands," said Qwerty.  If only Bob had agreed to carry the canoe around the obstruction, they wouldn't have to worry about such things as the ogre penchant for eating human flesh.  At least, not yet._

Ok.  I'd imagine that a short adventure story, something like a buddy tale, could carry on like this and, though weird, could make sense.


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## Ireth (Jul 6, 2016)

FifthView said:


> What if Bob is a non-gendered ogre?
> 
> _Bob and Qwerty picked up the giant fish.  It probably couldn't feel the rough scales with its calloused hands, but they did and almost dropped their end from shock._


_

I'd rephrase this bit to make it a tad less confusing (at first read I thought the first "it" referred to the fish).

Bob and Qwerty picked up the giant fish. Bob couldn't feel the rough scales with its calloused hands, but Qwerty did, and almost dropped their end from shock._


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## FifthView (Jul 6, 2016)

Ah, the curse of first drafts! 

I'd actually accidentally used "he" for Bob once, before I caught it.  Hard for me to get into that mode, because I'm not used to it.

That's a much better version Ireth.


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## RedMetalHunter (Jul 6, 2016)

La Volpe said:


> As a final note, all the people saying that one should use "they": How would that work? "Quina picked up a fish. They examined it"? That doesn't seem right at all, what with "they" being a plural pronoun. Am I missing something here?


Does not sound right at all. I must be old school. I don't think I could wrap my head around "they" being used as a singular pronoun. That could be a lot of mental heavy lifting, for pleasure reading, if "they" were a major character. Or would it be "they was" if "they" was singular? Or if "they" were singular?


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## Ireth (Jul 6, 2016)

RedMetalHunter said:


> Does not sound right at all. I must be old school. I don't think I could wrap my head around "they" being used as a singular pronoun. That could be a lot of mental heavy lifting, for pleasure reading, if "they" were a major character. Or would it be "they was" if "they" was singular? Or if "they" were singular?



"They were", not "they was". ^^


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## skip.knox (Jul 6, 2016)

A final comment on this from me. If there is going to be playing around with the core of the language, there had better be an overwhelming story reason necessitating it. I don't mean an authorial reason, a *story* reason. I generally do not turn to fantasy in hopes of being dragged around by my grammatical hair. If it's literary fiction, then fine. I figure I've got it coming. But when I show up in the fantasy aisle, I am far more interested in adventure and interesting worlds. When I go into a hamburger joint, I ain't looking to be fed _foie gras_. Granted, there's always that one chef who can surprise and delight me, but such chefs are rare indeed.


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## idknull (Jul 15, 2016)

Referring to the Ogre as 'It' should be fairly obvious to the readers. I guess as long as its natural it should be fine.


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