# First Line of a New Book



## Phin Scardaw (Mar 27, 2012)

a) Astor finished singing, and began dying.

b) As the Song ended, Astor began to die. 

c) Astor came to the end of the Song, and began to die. 

d) As he finished singing, Astor began dying. 

Opinions? Advice? Critique?


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## Xanados (Mar 27, 2012)

It's honestly a little hard to say because we don't have any further information. It all sounds a bit abstract. B is definitely the worst option there. I'd go for A.


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## TWErvin2 (Mar 27, 2012)

Given those options, A would be my choice. Of course, it depends on what follows. 

I'm not much on being 'hooked' by a first line. When I pick a novel, I scan the first few pages, after reading the back cover. Then I skip to the middle somewhere and read a bit.


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## Penpilot (Mar 27, 2012)

Of those choices I'd choose A too.


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## Devor (Mar 27, 2012)

Phin Scardaw said:


> a) Astor finished singing, and began dying.
> 
> b) As the Song ended, Astor began to die.
> 
> ...



If there's a "he" who's singing who's a main character, then I think it's a good idea to use "he" in the sentence.  It gives a fuller experience.

I would use:

_It was when he finished singing that Astor began to die._

Whatever you do, get rid of the comma.


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## Rikilamaro (Mar 27, 2012)

Out of those choices A is the best. The others just don't flow. But I think it could be better without the comma also. I might like to know what he is dying from? Is he lying in bed and this is his last breath, or is he infected with poison that is exacerbated by his strenuous use of his diaphragm? I'm sure you answer these questions later on, but know this information could help formulating the first sentence.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 27, 2012)

I like A

That being said, unless you are going for a comedic scene, any of these would be inappropriate, because people don't talk like that, and if death is a weighty subject in your book (as it is in most) you don't want to make a joke of it.  I have a funny scene where I hang someone..... but  I don't make the hanging of another man funny, just the thoughts of my MC as he's led to the gallows and subsequently escapes.

If you choose something silly or funny for the first line, it's going to set the tone, and I like that tone, don't get me wrong.  It could be a hilarious opening scene.  But, if you set a funny tone and then want us to weep for the tragic battle, disease, whatever, that is killing people, then it is incongruous and would red better if you did without the funny opening line.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Mar 27, 2012)

I'd choose A, of those four. I also wouldn't worry too much about whether your first sentence hooks people; I don't believe there's any substantial number of people who will put a book down after the first sentence (unless the first sentence is horrifyingly stupid, which your examples are not).


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## Queshire (Mar 27, 2012)

A here too, it's a good hook, and makes me want to learn more. I don't see it as a specifically funny sentence, it seems more melencholy to me. Like someone heroically going to his death.


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## The Din (Mar 27, 2012)

Sounds a little abstract for me. 'Began dying' implies that there is a specific point in time where the fellow went from being fine to being well on the way. Depending on context this might be what you're after, yet still I'd prefer to see it more personal. ie: Astor let the last note linger as he felt life begin to slip from his wasted body.


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## bbeams32 (Mar 27, 2012)

I'd have to go for A as well.  The first line of a book may be your only chance to draw in the reader, and this line would have done that for me at least.


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## Phin Scardaw (Mar 27, 2012)

Thanks everyone for confirming what I suspected: that A was the right choice to with. Although, I like the comma. 

Here's what I wrote last night, to give you a better idea of what's going on:

Astor finished singing, and began dying.

He acted quickly; he only had a few moments, and none to spare. Kneeling by the camp fire, he cast into it the dust of dried amphor seeds he'd ground in the mortar-bowl. They put up a pale smoke of purple, spiced and aromatic. He inhaled and coughed. The air was still  in the Kenengroth, and some stars could be seen through the dense canopy. Dlim, heart of the sacred star-figure, shined down upon his head where some rays were caught in the hoeple-stone cast in a silver band about his crown. 

The Song he'd sung was Anyx, and it was beginning to take swift effect. Visions were already swimming in his head, and he caught glimpses of faces from the past, old friends and Elfs lost, who had come back into the world to fight once more. It was hard to focus - but the curse the Song had activated needed his attention. 

Astor had prepared everything in advance: all the ingredients were measured out, and the little kettle-pot over the fire was boiling. He threw in the stallack-root, then added bitumen from the spruces of Nemn. 

The curse proved much more potent than he'd anticipated. He could feel it, the same way he could feel the mana of the great Songs moving within him - only this was an undoing, not a doing. What Black Song had called it into being, Astor could only guess; but it could be that his gamble in triggering the curse might also lead him to the cure.

The Song he sang which was meant to kill him might also be the one to save him.

It was difficult now to think clearly; the visions were getting stronger and he eyed the sword Mnelentyr. Compounded with the curse, the Song's effects were overwhelming him. He had precious little time. His breathing was now laboured, and he could feel the weave of his being under attack. 

_Focus_, he told himself, _and remember your training._

In his mind he saw Loronorth emerge from a hole in a ground blasted and grim. Behind him stood the Membrane, a shimmering barrier of Sylph-light. Loro was grinning and wielding some impossible blade, a thing carved from dire Songs and forged of Irrow-ores. The sight of his rival gave Astor the focus he needed.

Into the boiling pot he cast the final ingredients: doroplasm, lopnary shoots, star thistle. Upon the water, a little slick of oil formed. He quickly bent over the pot and breathed in the steam, feeling relief. After this, the most difficult part of all: he took the Mystranam from its enchanted case and drove its needle into his own heart. 

*Whaddya'll think?*


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## Ireth (Mar 27, 2012)

That is really cool! I especially like the dual nature of the Song, both to kill him and to save him. I'm intrigued to read more when you've written it!


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Mar 27, 2012)

Interesting intro. The only particular observation I have is that you introduce way too many new terms and foreign concepts in those first ten paragraphs. The second paragraph _alone_ introduces amphor seeds, the Kenengroth, Dlim, and the terms "star-figure" and "hoeple-stone." I consider myself a pretty sharp guy (quiet, Devor) and I was pretty lost already. Then we get Anyx, Elfs, stallack-root, Nemn, mana, Black Songs, Mnelentyr, a curse, Loronorth, the Membrane, Sylph-light, Irrow-ores, doroplasm, lopnary shoots, star thistle, and something called a Mystranam.

Not that someone _couldn't_ understand it, but it's a lot to take in all at once; the important thing is Astor's attempt to _not die_, and it's buried amongst all the miscellaneous stuff. I'm not really even sure where he is.


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## Phin Scardaw (Mar 28, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Interesting intro. The only particular observation I have is that you introduce way too many new terms and foreign concepts in those first ten paragraphs. The second paragraph _alone_ introduces amphor seeds, the Kenengroth, Dlim, and the terms "star-figure" and "hoeple-stone." I consider myself a pretty sharp guy (quiet, Devor) and I was pretty lost already. Then we get Anyx, Elfs, stallack-root, Nemn, mana, Black Songs, Mnelentyr, a curse, Loronorth, the Membrane, Sylph-light, Irrow-ores, doroplasm, lopnary shoots, star thistle, and something called a Mystranam.
> 
> Not that someone _couldn't_ understand it, but it's a lot to take in all at once; the important thing is Astor's attempt to _not die_, and it's buried amongst all the miscellaneous stuff. I'm not really even sure where he is.



YES! I agree entirely, but I don't know if I'll change this or not. What I'll probably do is just add more material to space out the fantasy references and beef up the writing a little. Part of me really does like this type of super-dense writing though. 

Most of these terms don't really need to be mulled over much: the ingredients aren't important to identify, and others are easy enough to puzzle out. Irrow-ores are ores mined in Irrow; spruce trees from Nemn should be no trouble either. The book does contain maps, so place names will be easier to grasp, such as the Kenengroth. 

A curse and a song are easy to figure out, and some of the terms are just names: Anyx is the name of the Song, and Dlin is the name of a star in a constellation, which I think "star-figure" represents fairly. 

I think that most readers would understand the major plot point here and wouldn't get caught up on references to amphor seeds. We need only know that Astor knows their properties and how to use them to save his life. 

The hoeple-stone will be mentioned again in the following paragraphs, as will Mnelentyr, Loronorth, and the Membrane. 

I think that leaving _some _pieces unturned is okay. The readers don't need to know what the Mystranam is at this point, nor much about the Kenengroth apart from what this passage will offer. I'll finish the scene tonight hopefully, and I invite further comments once I post it. 

But I was concerned about the many weird terms, and I'm glad you brought it up! Thanks!


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 28, 2012)

> Thanks everyone for confirming what I suspected: that A was the right choice to with. Although, I like the comma.
> 
> Here's what I wrote last night, to give you a better idea of what's going on:
> 
> Astor finished singing, and began dying.



No offense, but you don't put a comma because you like it.  You use a comma because the rules of grammar say that you should.  

You use a comma when you have two independent clauses separated by a conjunction.  Your sentence does not have two independent clauses, and you do not need the comma.  You need to take it out or make the second part an independent clause.


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## Elder the Dwarf (Mar 28, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> No offense, but you don't put a comma because you like it.  You use a comma because the rules of grammar say that you should.
> 
> You use a comma when you have two independent clauses separated by a conjunction.  Your sentence does not have two independent clauses, and you do not need the comma.  You need to take it out or make the second part an independent clause.



That isn't entirely true.  Commas can be used to join a dependent clause to an independent clause, forming a compound sentence.  They can also be used to separate identifiers ( Jeremiah, the blacksmith, went to work.) or interjections.  I'm sure Ravanna could give you a couple more, but I'm not a grammarian.  ( Yeah, there is probably a more professional term for identifier, but I don't know it.)


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## Phin Scardaw (Mar 28, 2012)

How did this turn into a grammar lesson? 

Thanks for the tips, but for now the comma stays. It feels right, and if it does need to be removed then my editor can pluck it out. 

I'd much rather discuss the actual writing. 

I posted the rest of the passage in the Showcase section. Let's see if I can get a link here:

http://mythicscribes.com/forums/showcase/2863-chapter-1-membrane.html


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 29, 2012)

Elder the Dwarf said:


> That isn't entirely true.  Commas can be used to join a dependent clause to an independent clause, forming a compound sentence.  They can also be used to separate identifiers ( Jeremiah, the blacksmith, went to work.) or interjections.  I'm sure Ravanna could give you a couple more, but I'm not a grammarian.  ( Yeah, there is probably a more professional term for identifier, but I don't know it.)



I do not dispute that there are many other uses for commas, but what I stand is entirely true.

If you separate two clauses with a conjunction, you only use a comma if both clauses are independent.  

Correct - This clause is independent, and this clause is independent.
Correct - This clause is independent but not this one.
Incorrect - This clause is independent, but not this one.

I have heard that some people say that the comma isn't needed nowadays if the two clauses are both simple.  No one says that it's okay.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 29, 2012)

Phin Scardaw said:


> How did this turn into a grammar lesson?
> 
> Thanks for the tips, but for now the comma stays. It feels right, and if it does need to be removed then my editor can pluck it out.
> 
> ...



It is absolutely essential that you not throw up barriers between you and the reader.  Knowing proper grammar is one way to prevent distracting the reader.  Grammar, to me, is "actual writing."


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Mar 29, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> I do not dispute that there are many other uses for commas, but what I stand is entirely true.
> 
> If you separate two clauses with a conjunction, you only use a comma if both clauses are independent.
> 
> ...



I see a tonal difference between S2 and S3. To me, the S3 is more urgent than S2, but I wouldn't consider it wrong. I know it wouldn't bother me if I saw S3 while reading. That comma, to me, implies a pause, but I'm not sure what's "incorrect" about it. Does it make the sentence harder to understand? Is it confusing? Will a majority of readers stumble over it or be bothered by it? If not, then I'm not sure what the problem is with using it.

Actually, now S2 bothers me, because:

*S4: This clause is independent but not purple.
S2: This clause is independent but not this one.*

S4 makes sense, but replace "purple" with "this one" and now it reads weird to me.

Also, if you're going to state flat-out that something is incorrect in a language that has no central defining authority, it would probably help if you cited which particular grammatical authority you're using the rules from.


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## Steerpike (Mar 29, 2012)

In general, I believe one should adhere to accepted rules of usage. I do believe, however, that in creative writing one should feel free to depart from the rules regarding commas to affect pacing or achieve some other desired effect.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 29, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> I see a tonal difference between S2 and S3. To me, the S3 is more urgent than S2, but I wouldn't consider it wrong. I know it wouldn't bother me if I saw S3 while reading. That comma, to me, implies a pause, but I'm not sure what's "incorrect" about it. Does it make the sentence harder to understand? Is it confusing? Will a majority of readers stumble over it or be bothered by it? If not, then I'm not sure what the problem is with using it.
> 
> Actually, now S2 bothers me, because:
> 
> ...



Look in any grammar source that you like.  They all state the following:

dependent clause - comma - independent clause
independent clause - no comma - dependent clause

Grammar isn't something you make up as you go along.  There are definite rules.  If you know what you're doing and know what rule you're breaking, it's sometimes okay to disregard one for effect, such as writing a sentence fragment to add emphasis.  You have to understand, however, the impact on the reader when you do it.  Adding a comma when one isn't needed in this instance, in my opinion, just makes the author look ignorant.  If I read the first line of a novel and the punctuation isn't even correct, I'm much less inclined to go any further.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Mar 29, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> Look in any grammar source that you like.  They all state the following:
> 
> dependent clause - comma - independent clause
> independent clause - no comma - dependent clause



Dunno, seems like Chicago doesn't so much mind *in certain cases*.



> Adding a comma when one isn't needed in this instance, in my opinion, just makes the author look ignorant.



So ignoring the rule is bad because it will look like you're ignoring the rule?  That's kinda circular. What's the reason for the rule in the first place? Why does having that comma make it harder to read, especially since (as Chicago mentions) it can be used to indicate a pause?


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 29, 2012)

> Dunno, seems like Chicago doesn't so much mind in certain cases.



Chicago still starts out with: it isn't needed.  Chicago goes onto say that it could be okay if both the independent clause and the dependent clause are long.  Again, it's the case of knowing the rule well enough to decide if it's okay to break it.  In this case, no reasonable person can argue that the clauses are long enough to warrant a comma.  



> So ignoring the rule is bad because it will look like you're ignoring the rule?  That's kinda circular. What's the reason for the rule in the first place? Why does having that comma make it harder to read, especially since (as Chicago mentions) it can be used to indicate a pause?



The rule is that you don't use a comma unless you have a reason to use it.  You don't throw one in wherever you want.  That's, just not, the way it, works, understand?  Is my previous sentence okay?  Would you want to read a whole paragraph like that?

My understanding was that this forum was for people who want to be writers.  I was shocked, appalled, and dismayed to find this reaction to a simple grammatical correction.  Wanting to be a writer and not embracing the rules of grammar seems to me equivalent to wanting to build a house but not wanting to bother with learning to use tools.  

Again, if I read the first line of a book and it had such a simple punctuation mistake, I wouldn't be very likely to continue because I'd figure that the author probably doesn't know what they're doing.  That's not circular at all, and I'm not sure how you're construing it as such.  Ignoring a rule is bad because it will look like you don't have a clue about basic grammar, not because it will look like you're ignoring the rule.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Mar 30, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> The rule is that you don't use a comma unless you have a reason to use it.



I understand the rules; I also understand that violating the rule for dramatic effect is entirely acceptable to most readers. Sure, maybe you'll throw the book out the window the first time you see a grammatical error, but most readers wouldn't even notice that comma. Tonally, it's better with the comma, because they're two distinct actions even if grammatically the second clause is dependent. Death deserves a pause.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 30, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> I understand the rules; I also understand that violating the rule for dramatic effect is entirely acceptable to most readers. Sure, maybe you'll throw the book out the window the first time you see a grammatical error, but most readers wouldn't even notice that comma. Tonally, it's better with the comma, because they're two distinct actions even if grammatically the second clause is dependent. Death deserves a pause.



I disagree.  The comma is completely unnecessary.  I see no need for it.  

There's absolutely no rule saying you use a comma to separate "distinct actions."  The use of a comma doesn't add to the drama; it just makes it look like the author doesn't know the rules of grammar.


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## Mindfire (Mar 30, 2012)

Phin Scardaw said:


> b) As the Song ended, Astor began to die.



Personally, I like this one best. (Contrary to the opinions of others.) It has a natural flow and rhythm to it. The problem with the others is that because of where you have the comma placed it interrupts the flow of the sentence. Option B allows the sentence to flow smoothly. The only problem is that it's a tad bit passive. Find something that has a bit more punch, but still flows. How about 

_As the song ended, Astor died._

This has the natural flow, but saying he died rather than "began to die" has more force to it.


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## Ireth (Mar 30, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Personally, I like this one best. (Contrary to the opinions of others.) It has a natural flow and rhythm to it. The problem with the others is that because of where you have the comma placed it interrupts the flow of the sentence. Option B allows the sentence to flow smoothly. The only problem is that it's a tad bit passive. Find something that has a bit more punch, but still flows. How about
> 
> _As the song ended, Astor died._
> 
> This has the natural flow, but saying he died rather than "began to die" has more force to it.



It does have a lot of force to it, but the story goes on from that point: Astor doesn't die immediately, so it wouldn't really work in this case.


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## Mindfire (Mar 30, 2012)

Wait so he lives? Well instead of "dying", which is kinda misleading, why not describe some kind of physical change that denotes weakness?


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## Ireth (Mar 30, 2012)

I didn't say he doesn't die at all; I said he doesn't die *immediately*. I don't know how the rest of the story pans out, though.


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## Phin Scardaw (Apr 2, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Wait so he lives? Well instead of "dying", which is kinda misleading, why not describe some kind of physical change that denotes weakness?



Hey thanks for the input. Astor sings a Song which triggers a curse someone put on him. So he sings, then begins to die, but does not. I was hoping it would make for a good opening hook, but I don't intend to mislead. The following paragraphs clarify what all is going on. 

As for commas, that's an ongoing issue that will be resolved at the proper time. 

I think what I don't like about option B is that it's not clear that Astor is the one singing the Song. 

And I think that my writing is always going to implement the passive voice a good deal, especially when I feels it's necessary. I see why others advice against it, but personally I feel as if the passive voice is vital for good story-telling that is based not on sensationalism but sound principles of literary quality.


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## Ireth (Apr 2, 2012)

Phin Scardaw said:


> I think what I don't like about option B is that it's not clear that Astor is the one singing the Song.



You could rectify that easily by changing the wording just a bit. "As the Song he sang ended, Astor began to die." Or something along those lines.


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## Phin Scardaw (Apr 2, 2012)

As he ended the Song, Astor began dying. 

???

This one resolves the comma issue as well, I believe


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## Ireth (Apr 2, 2012)

That works well, though you could also change "dying" to "to die".


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## Shockley (Apr 2, 2012)

As to commas (and even proper grammar), that really depends on the story. Some of the finest works in the English language throw all of the rules out the window (Finnegans Wake, anyone?). Maybe it just comes from writing westerns as my primary genre, but I find that being too obsessive about proper grammar can really interrupt the flow of a story and add a lot of unneeded weight. Nothing, in my mind, gives a frantic energy to a scene better than choppy sentences, fragments, etc. Back to Finnegan's Wake, there are a few points where Joyce (he was dictating) stopped mid-sentence, expressed another thought (often to someone else in the room, unrelated to the writing process) and then went back to the original sentence. When the story was read back, he liked the interruptions and kept them in. If we can forgive Joyce for that, we can forgive Phin Scardaw for a superflous comma.

Anyway, I think all of the proposed beginnings verge on the line of passivity (in spirit, if not in fact). I don't really have a proposed alternative, but that is my two cents.


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## Steerpike (Apr 2, 2012)

@Shockley - I'm in agreement with what you are saying here. Writing fiction is an art form, and it seems to me somewhat silly to suggest that the author cannot deviate from certain technical rules in constructing sentences. She should feel free to do so whenever necessary or desired to achieve an artistic effect (whether to affect pacing, or what have you). The important thing, in my mind, is that the author understand what she is doing. There is a difference between a rule of grammar broken out of ignorance, and one broken deliberately to achieve an effect. 

The focus on 'rules' of writing in an absolute sense really misses the mark. Whether it is an overly-zealous focus on grammar or punctuation, or on rules like 'show don't tell' or active v. passive voice, recitation of the rules without any context is of little value to anyone.


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## Phin Scardaw (Apr 2, 2012)

Steerpike et al,

Thanks for backing up my liberal use of commas. I know that even throughout history languages change, and I believe modern writing uses far fewer commas in general. We can all expect English to continue to transmute and evolve in fascinating new ways. 

The use of a comma in the sentence, "Astor finished singing, and began dying" was intended to balance the two distinct moments wherein something ends, and another thing begins. Both singing and dying are the major themes of the story, so to present them in such a way in the opening line is a literary device I'm attempting to implement effectively. 

I suppose proper grammar would dictate a sentence more like "Astor finished the Song, and then he began to die" but I like it less wordy, lighter. I like the six-word version better as I find it drives home the key points: FINISH, BEGAN, SINGING, DYING. I like the cyclical nature of the sentence, and this reflects the mana which the Songs (spells) tap into, as it moves in wheels of energy. 

So I fully agree that poetic licence should be allowed to all writers in all cases; but a writer who intends to follow proper grammar in his or her writing will show their mistakes. Whereas poetic effects will be evident because they will be more pronounced and universal. 

Obviously, I want my writing to reach people. I think that the Passive Voice is overlooked. Modern fiction writing is very action-oriented and plot-driven. Publishers seem to assume that if something isn't happening in every sentence, then readers will get bored. The standards, due to film and television, have veered away from traditional types of story-telling to something that reads like it could appear onscreen. 

To me, "It was a dark and stormy night" is still a very effective tool. I like describing my settings and even my characters using a passive voice, because it conveys the depths that sensitive readers can pick up on. Active Voice is great when there are actions to perform, but Passive Voice has its uses as well, and these sadly aren't valued much these days, or so it appears to me. 

Having said all that, I encourage people posting in this thread to comment on the content of my writing more than the grammatical errors (unless they're glaring or really mess up the meaning I'm going for) as this is a first draft, and I think that I'd really like to see readers expressing interest in the characters, setting, etc, and suggesting better ways to convey these things to my audience.

merci beaucoup
Phin


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## Ireth (Apr 2, 2012)

I agree with Phin on this. Breaking or bending the "rules" on occasion can have a lot of dramatic effect in a story -- using sentence fragments to emphasize something or make a point, for example. Like this one. But as with all things, it should be done with discretion and moderation.


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## Rullenzar (Apr 2, 2012)

I guess the very first thing that jumps out is you've given the reader a phone without its battery. There isn't much a reader can do with this. You haven't given the reader a reason to have an emotional connection with this character, so they read it and say meh who's astor? I hope he dies quick so I can find out what's going on.

I prefer the first 1 or 2 paragraphs of a story to hook the reader. In fact there is a really helpful tidbit on the main page of this site where someone explains and gives an example of how to start your book off. I suggest you take a look over it and rework your idea.

I won't comment on which line would be best because in my opinion none of them are good enough and I wouldn't feel right giving you advice to use even one of them. Using one of them at the end of a paragraph would work best in my opinion but with a little more meat on its bones.

Reading some of the comments I noticed people too focused on your comma. There is nothing wrong with your lines aside from being the very first line. You said your next paragraphs would explain what's going on. In my opinion like I said above is you should work most likely A) into the end of one of your paragraphs. 

Starting off by giving a very small description ( example: in the dingy hut ) somewhere throughout your paragraph so the setting can help the reader understand the mood. You can have the effect your going for come off better within a paragraph. That's my 2 cents you can take it or leave it.


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