# What are the limits of bronze weaponry/armor



## elcheapodeca (Mar 18, 2015)

Im working on the Orc societies for a story I'm currently writing and I was wondering if someone could help info me about how good bronze weapons and armor could get.

For example is something like bronze mail possible. And how hard would it be to produce bronze scale armor.

In terms of weapons what is the upper limit for bronze swords. And how would advanced bronze weapons compare to let's say pre medevial iron weapons in terms of durability, damage, weight.


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## X Equestris (Mar 18, 2015)

Iron beats bronze any time.  That is why bronze fell out of use in weapons, armor, and tools when iron was available.  I can't give you specifics right now, though.  Bronze mail and scale was definitely possible, and there are examples out there.


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## thecoldembrace (Mar 18, 2015)

X Equestris said:


> Iron beats bronze any time.  That is why bronze fell out of use in weapons, armor, and tools when iron was available.  I can't give you specifics right now, though.  Bronze mail and scale was definitely possible, and there are examples out there.



It wasn't that Iron beat bronze. Iron is far more brittle and loses its edge faster. The reason bronze fell out of favor was cost of production. Tin and copper in ancient times was not easy to come by, iron is everywhere. 

If you are looking for examples, the Egyptians were master bronze workers, same with the Hittites. Bronze scale is very possible as it was made and interwoven with treated linen and leather it was very protective. Hopefully, Sheilawisz will hop on this conversation, she has a great deal of knowledge about bronze.


-Cold


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## X Equestris (Mar 18, 2015)

thecoldembrace said:


> It wasn't that Iron beat bronze. Iron is far more brittle and loses its edge faster. The reason bronze fell out of favor was cost of production. Tin and copper in ancient times was not easy to come by, iron is everywhere.
> 
> If you are looking for examples, the Egyptians were master bronze workers, same with the Hittites. Bronze scale is very possible as it was made and interwoven with treated linen and leather it was very protective. Hopefully, Sheilawisz will hop on this conversation, she has a great deal of knowledge about bronze.
> 
> ...



Pure iron is, yes.  However, the early steel that often occurred is another story.

Edit:  Also, iron is harder than bronze.  Combine this with the cheapness factor, and you can see why bronze fell out of favor.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 18, 2015)

Hello everyone.

Thanks for mentioning me in this thread, Cold. I am not really an expert in Bronze, but I'll try to provide some information about it here because I cannot find one of our old threads about this subject.

First, I am sure that it would have been possible to craft mail armor from bronze. They manufactured loads of incredible things from this metal back in its age, from the finest sewing needles to lethal swords and from hand mirrors to shields. Mail armor would have been more difficult to make, and also bronze armor works best as plates, helmets and shields.

Another thing to consider is that making and working with bronze is far more difficult than people today sometimes imagine. First a Bronzesmith would need the right amounts of copper and tin, second all the tools and workshop and then it was necessary to learn and practice this art for many years before he could actually produce high quality swords, armor and other things.

You need to consider also that the quality and properties of the bronze produced would vary according to the proportions of copper and tin, and also sometimes other elements could be present in the mixture.

Like Cold here says, the reason that Iron eventually replaced Bronze is not that iron is stronger.

Some time ago, a TV show tried to demonstrate the superiority of iron over bronze. They got two swords, one iron and the other bronze, both of them made by experts in the arts that specialize in following the same methods used in the Bronze and Iron Ages respectively.

So they banged the swords against each other... and even though both blades suffered heavy damage, the Iron sword clearly took the worst part of it and everyone (except the experts themselves) were very surprised at this.

Bronze weapons were no joke.

A well crafted bronze sword was superior to iron weapons, far more valued and it was capable of slicing through flesh and bone with devastating power. The early Iron Age blades were not pure iron (the pure element can only be obtained in a laboratory), actually they were steel of poor quality not comparable to the steel that came later.

Iron became more used because copper and tin were scarce materials while iron was easier to obtain.

If you want to see some demonstrations of what a well made Bronze sword can do, please check out the following video made by Skallagrim with one of famous Neil Burridge's blades:

[video]https://youtu.be/ngjMtzJ6xgQ[/video]


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## elcheapodeca (Mar 18, 2015)

Ok thanks a bunch for the information. In your opinion how effect would a weapon like this be against iron or bronze lamellar or against chain mail? 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






Also do you think it would be realistic for a band of warriors living in an area that has yet to develop iron working having a mix of mostly bone/stone or copper weapons with the richest/best warriors having some bronze weapons.


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## X Equestris (Mar 18, 2015)

Iron vs. Bronze: History of Metallurgy - Video & Lesson Transcript | Study.com

This link provides some insight into the transition.


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## X Equestris (Mar 18, 2015)

elcheapodeca said:


> Ok thanks a bunch for the information. In your opinion how effect would a weapon like this be against iron or bronze lamellar or against chain mail?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not sure how useful the axe would be, honestly.  On your second point, I would say that mix of weapons sounds realistic enough.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 18, 2015)

I cannot be sure about this, but the axe in that picture looks to me like some type of Tool Axe intended to work on wood and not really to be used as a weapon.

Bronze axes were small if compared to later steel crafts, just like bronze age swords were nowhere near the length of medieval swords. That axe could still deliver a dangerous impact against armor, but it would be a better idea to use a sword in order to slash or stab your enemy in a vulnerable part of the body.

Yes, I think that your concept regarding that band of warriors sounds realistic.


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## elcheapodeca (Mar 18, 2015)

Sheilawisz said:


> I cannot be sure about this, but the axe in that picture looks to me like some type of Tool Axe intended to work on wood and not really to be used as a weapon.
> 
> Bronze axes were small if compared to later steel crafts, just like bronze age swords were nowhere near the length of medieval swords. That axe could still deliver a dangerous impact against armor, but it would be a better idea to use a sword in order to slash or stab your enemy in a vulnerable part of the body.
> 
> Yes, I think that your concept regarding that band of warriors sounds realistic.



Hmm. About the axe I'm looking for something that would be dual use. Like something that could be used to chop wood but also would do decently against basic armor in cases where a sword is unavailable.


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## BronzeOracle (Mar 18, 2015)

I remember watching A History of Ancient Britain (or A History of Celtic Britain - there were two series) and they also mentioned that iron if broken could be reworked - the pieces of a sword could be heated and hammered back together on an anvil, whereas a bronze blade if broken would need to be reforged.


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