# Help with a Marketing Survey



## BWFoster78 (Aug 27, 2013)

As most of you know, I'm not much of a marketing guy.  I've read a lot on the subject, however, trying to get up to speed before I launch my book.

There's one piece of advice I encounter over and over - Know Thy Audience!

I have to admit that I feel a bit like South Park's underwear gnomes:

Step 1: know your audience
Step 2:
Step 3: make great profit

Seriously, though I don't know exactly how to utilize the data, I can see it's value, and, since I have no idea who my audience is, I've been thinking a lot lately about how to find out.

I took one of my scenes to my writing group the other night.  A guy there said that he didn't like my protagonist, didn't even know what about my protagonist he was supposed to like.  I've had other people say, though, that the scene made them smile and really feel for my protagonist.

This led me to a brilliant thought: This scene defines my audience!

If you're the kind of person who reads this scene and smiles and thinks "poor guy," you're probably going to really enjoy my book.  If not, I'm not sure you're going to hate it, but you're probably not going to get the core of my story.

ALL THE ABOVE JUST TO GET TO THIS POINT: What do you think of this idea:

On my blog, post the following -

1. Appeal to help me out
2. The scene in question
3. A survey

Then, use my blog, FB, and forums to ask everyone I can find to fill out the survey.  Hopefully, from both the positive and negative responses, I can get a better picture of my audience.

I'd want to keep the survey short and simple, something like:

1. Did you smile and find yourself feeling for poor Xan? Yes or No (with buttons)
2. Please tell me about yourself - age, gender, hobbies, authors you read (important!), and anything else you may want to tell me
3. If you liked the piece and want to sign up for my newletter, enter your email address:

Suggestions, thoughts, advice?

Thanks!

Brian


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## Devor (Aug 27, 2013)

I'm feeling rotten, or I might have a lot to say. If you give me a few days I can get back to you.

Off the top of my head, though, your blog is a bad place for it. The people who read your blog are already kind of a subset.  So is Mythic Scribes, but I expect it's a broader group - you'd be better off doing it in the Showcase, or maybe both.


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## CupofJoe (Aug 27, 2013)

I'd tighten up "Did you smile and find yourself feeling for poor Xan?" 
To me it looks like its really 2 questions [maybe 3]... did you smile and what did you feel?
then from what did you feel? Was it... sorry? protective? happy? victorious? sad? contented?
What emotion do you think they should get from the abstract?
The "anything else" question is going to give you lots of text and unless you want to spend an age analysing the data it's not going to mean very much, the few questions the better.
I'm tempted to say the same for authors and hobbies, there would have to be a lot of analysis to give the responses meaning.
My work/job is in quantitative and qualitative data collection for psychology so I admit I might be over analysing things...
I really approve of pilot testing to get your message right - but that is the psychology talking again.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 27, 2013)

> I'm feeling rotten, or I might have a lot to say. If you give me a few days I can get back to you.



No hurry; take your time.  I'd love to hear your comments.

Hope you feel better.



> Off the top of my head, though, your blog is a bad place for it. The people who read your blog are already kind of a subset. So is Mythic Scribes, but I expect it's a broader group - you'd be better off doing it in the Showcase, or maybe both.



I could definitely do it both places, and any ideas on how to expand the group is helpful.

Thanks!


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 27, 2013)

> I'd tighten up "Did you smile and find yourself feeling for poor Xan?"
> To me it looks like its really 2 questions [maybe 3]... did you smile and what did you feel?
> then from what did you feel? Was it... sorry? protective? happy? victorious? sad? contented?
> What emotion do you think they should get from the abstract?



I really get what you're saying here, but I'm trying to minimize questions.  Do you think it's worth adding another box?

While the data I'd get from what they felt tells me something, I'm not sure it accomplishes my purpose.  My thesis is that a person who both a) smiles and b) feels emphathy for Xan is a member of my audience.  Since my primary objective with the question is to figure out if the person responding is or is not a member of my audience, I'm not clear on what the additional information would give me in that regard.



> The "anything else" question is going to give you lots of text and unless you want to spend an age analysing the data it's not going to mean very much, the few questions the better.
> I'm tempted to say the same for authors and hobbies, there would have to be a lot of analysis to give the responses meaning.



The goal here is to tell me where to find my audience, right?

Age and gender do that to some extent.  I think that author does it even better.  If there's an overlap between my readers and the readers of author X, then finding where his readership hangs out finds potential members of my audience.  Same thing with hobbies, I think.

I guess I'm not looking for: the majority of my audience does this hobby as much as looking for clues as to where they may hang out.

What do you think?



> I really approve of pilot testing to get your message right - but that is the psychology talking again.



It's the only thing I could think of.  Glad you think it's a good idea.

Thanks!


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## CupofJoe (Aug 27, 2013)

You could be right about getting information from authors [and hobbies] but my gut tells me you will get a lot of the big names [because that's what people read] and a few obscure authors [because people like to show off], if they answer it at all. I don't see that you will find a fine spread of names especially if the number of respondents is small. The only intersting thing could be if non-fantasy writers turn up... 
If your hypothesis is; if a reader "a) smiles and b) feels emphathy for Xan" then they will be a potential buyer, then you may well be right. I have no idea who my potential audience might be.... 
Personally I use two questions
1) did this scene make you smile?
2) did you feel empathy for Xan?
I think the "analysis" will getting the better of me... because I keep wanting to add a scaler "and how much?" to those questions and then ask them why...


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## PaulineMRoss (Aug 27, 2013)

Brian, I'm not really sure what you're going to do with this data if and when you get it. Are you really going to divide up respondents into two groups, 'my audience' and ''not my audience'? In other words, if someone's gone to the bother of reading the scene and didn't smile or feel empathy for Xan, are you seriously going to NOT tell them when the book is released? Because I would say - tell everyone, tell your family (down to the second cousins twice removed), tell your friends, tell everyone at work, tell everyone in your local hostelry, tell everyone you remotely know online. I mean, why wouldn't you?

Plus, your audience doesn't define itself by one scene, however 'key' it may be. Advice like 'know your audience' sounds wonderful in theory, but I would say: write the book YOU want to write, the one that makes you smile or feel empathy (or whatever emotions you want to generate), and put it out there. Your audience will find you. Eventually.

But if I'm missing some subtle point here, my apologies.


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## Ankari (Aug 27, 2013)

I don't think a person's reaction to a scene, or the MC of the scene, is a good way of gauging your audience. You need to ask them about your writing. Link their answers to measureable data.

Measurable data would include:


Age demographics
Gender demographics
Residency (like the state they live in)
Other books they like (you should offer a list of 5 to 7 books that best represent their respective sub genre).
Do they prefer ebooks  or physical books.
What vendor do they prefer (Nook, Amazon, iBooks, Kobo)
What is the average price they pay for books (put your own tiers for them to pick from)

What you'll want to ask the reader concerning your scene is:


From what you read, are you intrigued enough to continue reading the novel?
Did you find the language used enjoyable and complementing the story?
have you formed an opinion of Xan?
If so, what is it? (Like him, don't like him).

You'll want to add more questions, but the point is to take those who answered with a positive majority and derive the measurable data from them. Those would be your customers. Now you'll have a measureable way of identifying who they are.

The last two questions are linked, with the last one really for your own information. If the reader has formed an opinion about your MC, then that is a good thing no matter the opinion. I'd try to get 10 opinion questions with yes or no answers.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 27, 2013)

PaulineMRoss said:


> Brian, I'm not really sure what you're going to do with this data if and when you get it. Are you really going to divide up respondents into two groups, 'my audience' and ''not my audience'? In other words, if someone's gone to the bother of reading the scene and didn't smile or feel empathy for Xan, are you seriously going to NOT tell them when the book is released? Because I would say - tell everyone, tell your family (down to the second cousins twice removed), tell your friends, tell everyone at work, tell everyone in your local hostelry, tell everyone you remotely know online. I mean, why wouldn't you?
> 
> Plus, your audience doesn't define itself by one scene, however 'key' it may be. Advice like 'know your audience' sounds wonderful in theory, but I would say: write the book YOU want to write, the one that makes you smile or feel empathy (or whatever emotions you want to generate), and put it out there. Your audience will find you. Eventually.
> 
> But if I'm missing some subtle point here, my apologies.



Pauline,

To be honest, the step preceeding underwear gnomes' "Make Great Profit" idea is a bit vague for me as well.

I think, though, that the concept is to target your marketing.

Telling friends and family is great targeted marketing because those people are likely to buy my book and help me by writing reviews, etc. because they're friends and family.

Ideally, there are people who exist in the world who will want to buy my book who aren't related to me.  The idea is, I think, to figure out who they are so that I can target my marketing.

My time is limited.  If there are two potential blogs for which I may be able to write a guest post, it makes more sense to go with the one that is more likely to attract my audience.  For example, I write relatively optimistic fantasy.  I'm not going to try hard to get it featured on blogs for fans of dark fantasy.

I'm trying hard to balance the time I spend marketing vs the time I spend writing the next book.  I think that, overall, I'm going spend more time on promotion than I should.  I'm just trying to make sure that, whatever time I do spend, is spent as well as it could be.

Don't worry.  I will continue to write the books that I want to write.

Thanks.

Brian


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 27, 2013)

Ankari said:


> I don't think a person's reaction to a scene, or the MC of the scene, is a good way of gauging your audience. You need to ask them about your writing. Link their answers to measureable data.
> 
> Measurable data would include:
> 
> ...



I don't disagree that getting more measurable data would be beneficial.  I just worry that I'd be asking too much.  Two questions easily explode to ten or twenty.  I think I'm more likely to get people to participate if I keep it as quick and easy as possible.

I could be wrong, though.  I have no experience with this kind of stuff beyond being on the other side of it.  Usually, I'm willing to help at first.  Then, when I see a huge number of questions, I'm like, "Screw that."

As to the questions about reading, you're going far afield from the purpose of the survey.  

First of all, I don't anticipate getting so many respondents that any kind of indepth statistical analysis is going to help a ton.  I'm thinking in the tens of people, not the hundreds.

In an ideal world, I'd have thousands of responses where I could draw all kinds of correlations.  In the real world, I'm just not seeing how this is realistic.

I feel that, if someone has the response I listed to the scene, they're more likely to "get" what I'm trying to accomplish with the book.  If they "get" what I'm trying to accomplish, they're more likely to enjoy the book.  Those who enjoy the book are more likely to tell others and are the ones I should target.

Given that the above statement is true, my goal is simply to find out:

Did you have the reaction?
Who are you?

Again, I'm not a marketing guy, and I'd love to hear Devor's input on this.  I'm just trying to take a realistic approach that gives me some kind of information that I can use.

Thanks.

Brian


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## Devor (Aug 27, 2013)

In general, people take one of two approaches to Marketing:

I have a product. Who's going to buy it?

I have an audience. What kind of product will they be interested in?

Your first book is going to be the first.  Pour your heart into something, throw it out there, see what kind of audience you catch.  With your second book, you should start to get a feel for who your audience is, and how to play into their interests.

It's not an all-or-nothing game.  You don't appeal to one group 100%, and another group not at all.  You might find "this group kind of likes the story, and this group likes the story a lot." Once you know that you have some interest, you can figure out how to build on that interest.

That doesn't sound like the side of target-audience that you're interested in right now, though.  You want to know how to promote it, and I'm going to tell you:  Don't overthink it.

*In three words, how would you describe your reaction to the scene?

Name three blogs that you follow.*

That's it.  Post it in the showcase, post on your blog, stand in a mall handing it out. Wherever you can get feedback. That'll tell you everything you need to know.

I'm going to go back to feeling grumpy.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 27, 2013)

Fantastic information as always, Devor.  Thanks!


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## Alexandra (Aug 27, 2013)

Am I missing something? Have I failed to see why I should provide you with all kinds of personal information for what... nothing? Why should I do that? Who are you, Mark Zuckerberg? Why should I care (if you've ever talked with an agent about a new book you've heard this and similar questions before)? Also, focus less on facebook but more on twitter, “Facebook is about people you used to know; Twitter is about people you'd like to know better.”


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 27, 2013)

> Am I missing something? Have I failed to see why I should provide you with all kinds of personal information for what... nothing? Why should I do that? Who are you, Mark Zuckerberg? Why should I care



The great things about forums like this one is that we all help each other out.

Just as I beta read for people I met here, they beta read for me.  Just as I give feedback and offer tips to others, they do the same for me.

It's kinda the whole spirit of this place.  I'm not sure exactly what your objection is.

I have no desire to tweet.  Sorry.


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## ThinkerX (Aug 27, 2013)

Brian...at this point, I'd suggest trying the 'normal' publishing route first before jumping straight into self publishing.


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## Alexandra (Aug 28, 2013)

Brian, you misunderstand me. I've no objection to what you are proposing to do, I'm only pointing out that you've not offered any motivation for people to take your survey and while online we are constantly asked to participate in surveys and rate everything from soup to nuts. The quote of mine you used is satire ... Mark Zuckerberg, facebook, you know ... twas not an attack. If you don't wish to use twitter as a promotional tool that's fine, I was only offering a suggestion.


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## Devor (Aug 28, 2013)

Long surveys do usually come with an incentive.  Usually you get entered in a raffle, but I recently took a survey at a mall where they gave me a $10 gift card.

Asking people to quickly name a few of their favorite blogs, and maybe books, isn't really intrusive or time consuming. And he would be making a personal appeal, instead of an impersonal organizational request.  It's something to consider, but it all depends on the details.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 28, 2013)

Alexandra said:


> Brian, you misunderstand me. I've no objection to what you are proposing to do, I'm only pointing out that you've not offered any motivation for people to take your survey and while online we are constantly asked to participate in surveys and rate everything from soup to nuts. The quote of mine you used is satire ... Mark Zuckerberg, facebook, you know ... twas not an attack. If you don't wish to use twitter as a promotional tool that's fine, I was only offering a suggestion.



At every story I go to now, they offer me "the chance at winning $X" if I complete a survey.  I never do the surveys.

To get a good level of participation, it seems to me like I'd have to offer something substantial to each respondent.  I simply don't have the resources to do so.

My thinking is: what would get me to fill out a survey?

My answer is: a personal appeal.  "Hey, this is my situation.  I need help.  Please?"

It's not ideal, but it's all I got.


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## Philip Overby (Aug 28, 2013)

I'll give your survey a go. I don't know much about marketing myself, but I can tell you how I make a decision to buy a book:

1. I follow writers on Twitter. I know you don't want to use Twitter, but it's a great way to see a lot of authors' personalities. I got into Chuck Wendig, Joe Abercrombie, and Mark Lawrence more and more from just reading their daily tweets and links they posted to various things. Because I like them as people, I imagined I'll like them as authors. In the case of Wendig, I liked him initially because of his website. He posts conventional writing advice in a funny way which I found engaging. Since then I've bought several of his writing advice books and some of his fiction as well.

This isn't entirely the same, but I really like Jennifer Lawrence. She seems down to earth and relatable as a person. Therefore, I'm more likely to see her movies not only because she's a great actress, but also because she seems like a great person all around. Maybe all people don't think this way, but a writer's personality can determine if I'm interested in buying their work or not.

2. I take recommendations from other people I trust. There are loads and loads of books out there now, published and self-published. Even if something's free, if I don't have a reason to be interested in it, then I'm probably not going to read it. This is where an awesome synopsis comes in handy. If the synopsis sounds awesome, I'll pick it up or at least download the sample to check it out. I bought _Throne of the Crescent Moon_ by Saladin Ahmed simply because of the synopsis and after reading the first sample chapter of his book.

3. Promotions get me interested. If someone does a cool, creative promotion, I'll give a book a chance. For instance, Mark Lawrence recently did a contest for fans to create a poster based on a quote from one of his books. He does lots of things like this. These get my attention. I've since bought _Prince of Thorns._ This was combined with recommendations from other people, an awesome synopsis, and me following him on Twitter. Sort of a perfect storm.

So these are just things I personally look at when I buy books. I don't necessarily look for a new book by saying "is this in my demographic?" I just buy books based on the following:

a. being able to relate or connect with the author in some way
b. getting recommendations from people I trust (other authors, friends, forums, etc.)
c. creative ways of promotion
d. an awesome synopsis
e. decent reviews (they don't have to all be 5 stars)
f. engaging sample chapters (for Kindle)
g. affordability (I'm probably not going to buy anything over 9.99 for Kindle unless it sounds really, really good)

Anyway, just throwing this out there. Not sure if you can or want to use any of this, but this is how I make decisions anyway. It usually takes more than just me liking one scene from a book.

That said, posting a section in the Showcase couldn't hurt. I know people are weird about posting things they plan to publish there, but it would be a way to get feedback on the site. If you don't want to go that route, I think your initial idea would be fine. I'd be willing to go along with that. If you wanted more data down the line, you could always offer up additional scenes if you wanted.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 28, 2013)

ThinkerX said:


> Brian...at this point, I'd suggest trying the 'normal' publishing route first before jumping straight into self publishing.



I get that both have positives and negatives, but do you have a particular reason for making this suggestion at this time?

My reasons for self publishing are:

1. Impatience.  The traditional route takes too long.  I have to first find an agent and then wait for the agent to maybe find a publisher then wait for the publisher to get around to my book.  It's maybe not a great reason, but it is the way I feel.

2. Entrepreneurial.  I've always wanted to own a business.  Self publishing is a low risk way to do that.  Besides my time (which I consider spent developing a hobby), I'm only putting a grand out of pocket to do it.

3. A, perhaps unsubstantiated, feeling that traditional isn't worth it.  It seems that the standard deal is $5000 and not a lot of marketing support.  Whereas +$5000 is better than -$1000, you have to go through a lot of crap (queries and waiting and more queries and more waiting) to get it, and the profit sharing limits financial upside a bit.  Granted, a separate upside is that I would have support that I lack now and more credibility.

Anyway, if someone were to say, "Hey, Brian, we really like your stuff and want to publish it" I'd certainly consider their offer.  I feel like the system now is, "If you jump through all these hoops, we may throw a couple of pennies your way."  That feeling kinda brings out a "Screw you and the horse you rode in on" response from me.

Don't get me wrong.  I understand the publisher and agent POV.  They are putting their money up, and they need to do everything they can to guarantee a profit.  Doesn't make sense for them to do any different.  Doesn't mean I have to like or accept it.

Anyway, despite what I just said, it is a tough decision for me.  I really think that the book I wrote is publishable, especially considering the help my editor is providing.  My wife, also, is pushing me to try to the traditional route.  So, I'd love to know what prompted your comment.

Thanks.

Brian


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 28, 2013)

Phil,

I think this is good information.  If we're going to market books, it helps to know how people go about making the decision to buy them.



> a. being able to relate or connect with the author in some way



This is one that never would have occurred to me.  I pay absolutely no attention to the author other than, "Oh, I read something that I liked from that guy.  Let me see what else he has."



> b. getting recommendations from people I trust (other authors, friends, forums, etc.)



I think this is the biggest one in that most people are more likely to buy a book that comes with a personal recommendation.  The only thing we can do is write books good enough that people will recommend it!



> c. creative ways of promotion



So hard to figure out how to creatively promote...



> d. an awesome synopsis



Agreed.  Hugely important and so, so difficult.



> e. decent reviews (they don't have to all be 5 stars)



Yeah.  Gotta get quality and quantity.  Also tough, but worth focusing on.



> f. engaging sample chapters (for Kindle)



Absolutely critical.  The first few chapters of your book have to be perfect.



> g. affordability (I'm probably not going to buy anything over 9.99 for Kindle unless it sounds really, really good)



Agreed.  The price I'm willing to pay is actually dropping.  Used to, I wouldn't have blinked at paying $12.99 for Brent Weeks.  Now that I've found so many indie authors that have good stuff available for so much less, I didn't buy his book.  I'll wait until I can get it for $7.99.  As for pricing my book, I'm probably going with $4.99.



> That said, posting a section in the Showcase couldn't hurt. I know people are weird about posting things they plan to publish there, but it would be a way to get feedback on the site. If you don't want to go that route, I think your initial idea would be fine. I'd be willing to go along with that. If you wanted more data down the line, you could always offer up additional scenes if you wanted.



I'll definitely take Devor's suggestion on that one.

Thanks!

Brian


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## Philip Overby (Aug 28, 2013)

If I had to rank the importance of what I listed, I'd say they go this way:

1. Recommendations (this is what almost always gets me initially interested)
2. An awesome synopsis
3. Good reviews
4. Engaging sample chapters
4. Affordability
5. Creative Promotion
6. Author's Personality-So in this case, this is usually the last thing that influences my purchase. If the writer seems like a jerk or is pretty boring, that can effect my decisions at times. However, sometimes authors post links to reviews which can sometimes help me make decisions as well. I downloaded Wendig's _The Blue Blazes_ sample after I read a review he linked from Twitter. 

I think $4.99 is a reasonable price. I notice a lot of authors do promotions (free or reduced price) and that's often when they get a lot of their reviews. I think some readers may see it as "Well, I got this book for free, so I should do a review."

Let us know if and when you post the survey/scene. I'll be willing to help out.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 28, 2013)

> Let us know if and when you post the survey/scene. I'll be willing to help out.



It'll probably be a couple of weeks, but I will.  Thanks!

Regarding the discussion of what attracts a reader, I see two distinct issues:

1. What do you do to get a reader to your Amazon page?
2. How do you convert that reader to a buyer once you get them there?


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## Devor (Aug 28, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> 1. What do you do to get a reader to your Amazon page?
> 2. How do you convert that reader to a buyer once you get them there?



They aren't separate questions. What you do to get someone interested is what you do to keep them interested.  I think I heard Judge Judy say that once.  Your Amazon page is pretty straightforward - it's just more of the same marketing, plus price and promotions.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 28, 2013)

Devor said:


> They aren't separate questions. What you do to get someone interested is what you do to keep them interested.  I think I heard Judge Judy say that once.  Your Amazon page is pretty straightforward - it's just more of the same marketing, plus price and promotions.



For the purposes of coming up with an action plan, it seems useful to separate the two.  My plan to get people to my page involves: where to promote the book, building email lists, etc.  My plan to get browsers to buy involves a solid description, getting reviews, and a good sample.

Granted, there is overlap.  I'll use the description and, perhaps, some of the reviews in my promotions.

Again, though, there seem to be two distinct questions:

1. How do people find an Amazon page for a particular book?
2. What entices them to buy that book once they are there?


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## Steerpike (Aug 28, 2013)

I like your enthusiasm, BWFoster, but I do wonder, in terms of a purely cost-benefit analysis, whether spending a lot of time on this sort of thing is ultimately productive. It certainly can't hurt, if done correctly, and I suppose it is possible it will help, but from what I've seen the best way to improve your sales and gain a readership is to get your next book finished and published, and then get the next one finished and published, and so on. To the extent that doing surveys or trying to parse your potential audience so finely takes you away from writing, I'm not sure it's a net gain.


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## PaulineMRoss (Aug 28, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Again, though, there seem to be two distinct questions:



I agree that they are separate questions. Finding the book in the first place is a very different thing from converting casual interest to a sale. It's also much harder, I think. If people have already clicked through to the Amazon page, they're already predisposed to like the book.



> 1. How do people find an Amazon page for a particular book?



I can't speak for 'people', but I find them because authors scatter the links about like confetti. It should be on every page of your blog, on your Facebook page (if you have one), and on every single promotional piece you put out. Check also that the automatic links from Goodreads (and similar) do actually work and go direct to the book page. Also, a small point, but as a Brit I am abjectly grateful for every author who also links to the Amazon.co.uk page so I don't have to search for it. The most successful promotional techniques seem to be building an email list, asking friendly bloggers to review it and (maybe) a Goodreads giveaway, but every author seems to have a different works-for-me recommendation, so good luck with that.



> 2. What entices them to buy that book once they are there?



I don't like to push my own blog, but I once wrote an exhaustively detailed post on this very point. Short answer (for me) is everything, in this order: title; cover; blurb; reviews; and (the big one, the deal-breaker) the sample. If I haven't been put off by the end of the sample, then if the price is right (under about $4.50 for an unknown author, but the cheaper the better) I'll buy.

Very long version here: Pauline's Fantasy Reviews: Essay: On Choosing A Fantasy Book To Buy


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 28, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> I like your enthusiasm, BWFoster, but I do wonder, in terms of a purely cost-benefit analysis, whether spending a lot of time on this sort of thing is ultimately productive. It certainly can't hurt, if done correctly, and I suppose it is possible it will help, but from what I've seen the best way to improve your sales and gain a readership is to get your next book finished and published, and then get the next one finished and published, and so on. To the extent that doing surveys or trying to parse your potential audience so finely takes you away from writing, I'm not sure it's a net gain.



I agree completely.

Spending time on this is an emotional decision rather than a logical one.

1. One of the reasons I'm self publishing is because I like the idea of owning a business.  Not much of a business without trying to sell the books.

2. I have to try to swing for the fences.  If I put the book out there without any promotion, no one is going to buy it.  If I do some promotion, at least I have a shot.

3. I need to see some benefit immediately.  Writing is hard work.  Not selling any copies would be very discouraging.

Since I know marketing isn't the logical choice, I'm trying to minimize the time I spend on it, thus trying to make sure whatever I do end up doing is as efficient as possible.


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## Steerpike (Aug 28, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I agree completely.
> 
> Spending time on this is an emotional decision rather than a logical one.
> 
> ...



Makes sense. I'll certainly be interested to learn how it goes!


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 28, 2013)

Pauline,

I read the article.  Fantastic job and very helpful.

I haven't seen my cover yet, but I'm hopeful it's going to turn out okay.  I hired the same artist who did Terry Erwin's books, and I really liked those.  They just pop at thumbnail size.

I think the sample will be good.  It has lots of tension, and I think those people who are inclined to like what I'm trying to accomplish will enjoy it.

I worry about the blurb as I haven't quite been able thus far to get it right.  I also think that my title, Power of the Mages, could probably use some work.

For reviews, I'm going to solicit as many as I can and let the chips fall where they may.

The concept of the story isn't all that original as it falls in the "boy from young village becomes powerful figure" mold.  At least I don't make him a long lost king  .  I was really going for my take on Wheel of Time but with more focus on relationships (though some similarities are coincidental such as having three boys and 1 girl from a village start out as the main characters).

As I near completion of the book (I'm waiting for the next set of comments from my editor), I can't help but worry about how it will be received.  Overall, I think I'm pleased with how the final draft is turning out.  My editor is really helping me ramp up the tension and portray the emotion much more realistically.  On the other hand, I know that the work I would produce if I waited another year would far surpass it.

We'll see.

Thanks.

Brian


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## ThinkerX (Aug 28, 2013)

> Anyway, despite what I just said, it is a tough decision for me. I really think that the book I wrote is publishable, especially considering the help my editor is providing. My wife, also, is pushing me to try to the traditional route. So, I'd love to know what prompted your comment.



First off, I'd try for one of the smaller publishing houses that doesn't require an agent.   That is pretty much my 'plan A', as it were.  Worth noting: I'm seeing more and more smaller press releases on the shelves at the local library (the one remaining new bookstore in the area is tiny, oriented towards tourists...but I have seen works by local authors on the shelves).

Main reason is, you'd get the publishers perspective of whats wrong with your work.  These people take a huge gamble with each book they go for, therefor it stands to reason they'd understand what sells and what doesn't.  I figure this to be especially true of the smaller houses, where a wrong choice means going out of biz.

Also, get feedback from five or six publishing houses, and even if they reject you each time, there are people in the industry going...'This BWFoster guy might amount to something someday.'  So between that and a moderately successful self pub or two, and they might be willing to give you more consideration next time around.

If you offer to a major house and get published, then that publicity transfers over to the self pub end of things.  Can't wait for the next BWFoster book to come out on print?  It's online.  

-0-0-0-0-

As to myself, most of my stuff is on the shorter side: Even 'Labyrinth' is not much more than half the length of 'Power of the Mages' - but since coming here, I've turned out about a dozen short stories and novelletes, and properly fleshed out, most of my other stuff will probably be novella length.  Looking through the listings at Ralan, I see a number of mostly online publishers who appear interested in works of that length.  Hence, I see nothing wrong with trying the E-Mag or Novella publisher route first, before going over to self pub.


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## Steerpike (Aug 28, 2013)

I don't know - I think I'd start at the top, whether you're doing short stories or traditional novel publications. I think Tor will take submissions without an agent. If that doesn't work, move down the list to smaller publishers.


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## Philip Overby (Aug 28, 2013)

> I don't like to push my own blog, but I once wrote an exhaustively detailed post on this very point. Short answer (for me) is everything, in this order: title; cover; blurb; reviews; and (the big one, the deal-breaker) the sample. If I haven't been put off by the end of the sample, then if the price is right (under about $4.50 for an unknown author, but the cheaper the better) I'll buy.
> 
> Very long version here: Pauline's Fantasy Reviews: Essay: On Choosing A Fantasy Book To Buy



Pauline, sometimes pushing your blog pays off. I want to follow it now even though I can't figure out how to. You've got a reader now!



> I don't know - I think I'd start at the top, whether you're doing short stories or traditional novel publications. I think Tor will take submissions without an agent. If that doesn't work, move down the list to smaller publishers.



I agree with Steerpike in some ways, but that's only because my ultimate goal is to be published traditionally first. I don't begrudge anyone that goes the other route though. If you find that route just doesn't work for your own personal goals though, I wouldn't push something that feels like it makes you anxious or impatient.



> The concept of the story isn't all that original as it falls in the "boy from young village becomes powerful figure" mold. At least I don't make him a long lost king . I was really going for my take on Wheel of Time but with more focus on relationships (though some similarities are coincidental such as having three boys and 1 girl from a village start out as the main characters).



BW, I think this where having an awesome synopsis is an absolute must. If you're offering another boy from a village becomes a powerful figure story, what sets it apart from other such stories? If I read a synopsis that basically said as much, I would need some more reasons to want to buy it. Is there a distinctive flair to the writing? Does the plot sound like something I'd be into? Does the world sound interesting? If you're heavily focused on character-driven stories, how are you going to relay that through a synopsis or sample chapters? I think character-driven stories can be a hard sell for a synopsis, so that's where a strong plot helps out a lot. 



> As I near completion of the book (I'm waiting for the next set of comments from my editor), I can't help but worry about how it will be received. Overall, I think I'm pleased with how the final draft is turning out. My editor is really helping me ramp up the tension and portray the emotion much more realistically. On the other hand, I know that the work I would produce if I waited another year would far surpass it.



That's why, I believe Steerpike mentioned, writing and finishing the book and beginning the next one is important. I've seen many reviews where people say "This was a good first effort and I'm looking forward to what this author offers up next." This isn't a glowing review by any means, but if you engaged the reader in any way, you have a potential new reader that will buy your next book and next book. I don't believe in developing a readership with one book. Sure, the first book is your first impression to the world and it's good to be nervous or anxious about it. But it's also like going to the first day of school. You may make some friends, but there may also be some people that don't like you and push you around. Once you get used to things (writing more books) I think that feeling subsides some.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 29, 2013)

> Main reason is, you'd get the publishers perspective of whats wrong with your work. These people take a huge gamble with each book they go for, therefor it stands to reason they'd understand what sells and what doesn't. I figure this to be especially true of the smaller houses, where a wrong choice means going out of biz.
> 
> Also, get feedback from five or six publishing houses, and even if they reject you each time, there are people in the industry going...'This BWFoster guy might amount to something someday.' So between that and a moderately successful self pub or two, and they might be willing to give you more consideration next time around.



This is not bad reasoning.  However, I think I'm at the point where I'm ready to make the fixes my editor recommends and move on.  I have quite a ways to go to become the author I want to become, and I don't think I'm going to get there on this book.

I really do think that my best bet is to finish it up by making it the best that I can make it and put it out there.  I'm not sure that hearing about its problems from small publishers would help me a lot as I feel I can fairly accurately assess its problems.

It flows well, is tight and tense, features what I believe to be 3D characters, and has, I think, an engaging plot.  It also isn't as creative as I'd like in terms of storyline and magic system, doesn't evoke the emotional response I want, and isn't as thrilling as it could be.  

Basically, I think it's "good" but not "special."  I don't realistically see how I can get it to "special" at anywhere close to my present ability.  At this point, I think I can live with both its pluses and its minuses and move on.

I'm viewing my career as a long road, and this is the start.  Right now, I can produce something that is easy, and hopefully fun, to read.  My next two steps are: 1. make my writing grab the reader by the throat and pull them forcefully into the story and 2. make my readers so invested in my characters that they experience the same emotions as my characters.

Over the next several novels in this series, I hope to come closer to those goals.

If I can combine that level of ability with a Cool Idea, I have no doubt I'll achieve success.  The only problems are:

1. Getting my ability to where I want it to be
2. Figuring out a Cool Idea

Like I said, "Long road."

I think my first book is good enough that it will win me some readers and not turn off many who would normally comprise my audience.  That's the best I can hope for at this point.

Thanks for the comments.

Brian


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 29, 2013)

> BW, I think this where having an awesome synopsis is an absolute must. If you're offering another boy from a village becomes a powerful figure story, what sets it apart from other such stories? If I read a synopsis that basically said as much, I would need some more reasons to want to buy it. Is there a distinctive flair to the writing? Does the plot sound like something I'd be into? Does the world sound interesting? If you're heavily focused on character-driven stories, how are you going to relay that through a synopsis or sample chapters? I think character-driven stories can be a hard sell for a synopsis, so that's where a strong plot helps out a lot.



Phil,

I agree.

I need to spend A LOT of time on my synopsis.  It's not nearly there yet.

I think the goal with this book is to try to reach my core audience because they're the ones most likely to stay with me and buy future books.  Perhaps the key to target my blurb more and emphasize the character's personal story over the epic fantasy?  I'm not sure my core audience is going to be super thrilled by battles, political maneuvering, and the next phase of an old conflict as much as they would be seeing a lonely guy searching for acceptance while trying to do the right thing against the backdrop of world-changing events.



> That's why, I believe Steerpike mentioned, writing and finishing the book and beginning the next one is important. I've seen many reviews where people say "This was a good first effort and I'm looking forward to what this author offers up next." This isn't a glowing review by any means, but if you engaged the reader in any way, you have a potential new reader that will buy your next book and next book. I don't believe in developing a readership with one book. Sure, the first book is your first impression to the world and it's good to be nervous or anxious about it. But it's also like going to the first day of school. You may make some friends, but there may also be some people that don't like you and push you around. Once you get used to things (writing more books) I think that feeling subsides some.



Exactly.

I've worked on this for 2 and a half years.  It's time to get it finished and move on.

Thanks for the comments.

Brian


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## PaulineMRoss (Aug 30, 2013)

Slightly off the original topic, but since we seem to have veered onto more general aspects of publishing and marketing, this might be of interest. Lindsay Buroker is one of my favourite self-published authors, and I highly recommend her blog for advice for other self-publishers. I came across this article recently where she lists the things she now thinks are useful for those just starting out (as opposed to what she actually did!):

How Do You Establish a Fan Base *Before* You Launch Your Book? | Lindsay Buroker

On the subject of self-publishing versus traditional, it's hard to see any advantage to traditional, apart from the rather nebulous concept of 'validation' and the print distribution network. Seems to me that all that querying/rejection business is like banging your head against a brick wall. But to each his/her own.


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## CandaceKroslak (Sep 3, 2013)

If one is going to promote his business or work one must know about various secrets related with it such as targeted group, product etc. Information shared by you is knowledgeable and useful.


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## The Dark One (Sep 10, 2013)

Hey BW, something to think about (although it's possible I have misinterpreted your attitude to your own work). If you have doubts about the worth of your first effort and don't feel like putting in the work to get it up the level you'd like, there are two paths you might consider.

Just put it in the bottom drawer and start on something fresh...with a higher level of ability than you started the first work; OR
publish the first work under a nom-de-plume. If it goes berserk with success, continue writing under the NDP. If not, publish the next book as BW Foster (or not...)


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 10, 2013)

The Dark One said:


> Hey BW, something to think about (although it's possible I have misinterpreted your attitude to your own work). If you have doubts about the worth of your first effort and don't feel like putting in the work to get it up the level you'd like, there are two paths you might consider.
> 
> Just put it in the bottom drawer and start on something fresh...with a higher level of ability than you started the first work; OR
> publish the first work under a nom-de-plume. If it goes berserk with success, continue writing under the NDP. If not, publish the next book as BW Foster (or not...)



I do have some doubts.  As I always say, an author is probably the worst person to determine the quality of their own work.

I was thinking about a different route: establishing a Go/No Go Team.  Basically, get a few people I trust (hopefully, I can draw some from this forum) to read the book and tell me if it's good enough.

If not, go back to the drawing board.  If so, release it.

Thanks!

Brian


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## T.Allen.Smith (Sep 10, 2013)

That's not a bad idea Brian. Dark One has a good point too. There's nothing wrong with having unpublished work locked away before you're ready.

I myself have three that will never see the light of day. I never tried to send them out because I knew they weren't good enough. There are members of this forum that have three to four times that amount stashed away. Hold yourself to a standard. 

That being said, it's easy to be over-judgmental of our own work. I find that most winters fall in one if two camps:
Either they are blown away by their own work, always thinking it's the next big thing and astounded by their brilliance. -OR- They have a negative view, always of the opinion they don't measure up, or the piece they labored over for years isn't up to snuff. In my opinion, the latter is more productive. Depressing huh?

Question:
I know you use beta readers. Have you had readers finish the book without critique, just giving you opinions on story?

I think it's helpful to get opinions from writer/readers as well as reader/readers.

EDIT: I just realized how disheartening my response might sound. I have no idea if your book is ready, or if it meets your standard. I certainly don't mean to discourage. I simply wanted to say that it's okay, and natural, to have completed works that are for no one else but you. No writing is ever wasted.


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## Philip Overby (Sep 10, 2013)

It would be helpful to have readers who aren't going to analyze it based on technical prowess or writer-type things. Basically, people who aren't going to critique it or suggest changes. Just things like "this is really good" or "this isn't really something I'd like, but I could see it finding an audience."


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 10, 2013)

> That being said, it's easy to be over-judgmental of our own work. I find that most winters fall in one if two camps:
> Either they are blown away by their own work, always thinking it's the next big thing and astounded by their brilliance. -OR- They have a negative view, always of the opinion they don't measure up, or the piece they labored over for years isn't up to snuff. In my opinion, the latter is more productive. Depressing huh?



I get exactly what you're saying.

As I've said a bunch of times, I know that this book is not the best book I will ever produce.  With each draft, my skills improve.  My editor is helping me improve my skills a bunch.

The book can never be perfect, so I have to resist the temptation to create perfection.  On the other hand, since it's hard for me to judge the quality of my own work objectively, how do I know if it's good enough?



> Question:
> I know you use beta readers. Have you had readers finish the book without critique, just giving you opinions on story?
> 
> I think it's helpful to get opinions from writer/readers as well as reader/readers.



I've had a couple of people who really liked the book, but I'm not sure their standards were all that high.

This would be my concept for the Go/No Go Team.  Not beta-reading, not reviews, but reading as readers and saying, "This book, overall, is..."


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## Devor (Sep 10, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I was thinking about a different route: establishing a Go/No Go Team.  Basically, get a few people I trust (hopefully, I can draw some from this forum) to read the book and tell me if it's good enough.



I've been thinking about this idea, and BW, I have to say . . . if I read your book, and thought it was garbage, at this point I would still tell you to publish.

You're at a point where, given the sheer amount of effort you sound like you're putting into it, you may need to change something in your mindset to get the next level.

That is, you may be trying too hard.

And I don't say that to dismiss your efforts by any means.  Follow through on what you're doing if it's helping you to improve.  But if what you're doing wraps up at a point where "it's still not good enough," then pardon my bluntness, but I think that's probably time for the _to Hell with it!_ approach.  Get the book out there, stop thinking of it as make-or-break, and start the next one with your cortisol levels down.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 11, 2013)

Devor,

While I get your point, let me answer with a personal anecdote.

I think that indie authors, if you can find good ones, offer a value to the reading public.  I'd much rather pay $2.99 for a book than $12.99.  It's also nice to know that the guy who wrote the $2.99 book is probably getting more of the money from my purchase than the $12.99 guy.

When I discover an author I like, my inclination is to go buy something else from that author.  Case in point, Cidney Swanson.  Her stuff isn't fantastically awesome, but they're quick, fun reads and well worth the price.  After finding the first one, I quickly bought and read 5 more from her.

Recently, I read a scifi adventure novel.  It wasn't bad.  There were some flaws, but, overall, I enjoyed it.  I then discovered that the guy's first novel, the first part of an epic fantasy, was available for free download.

Long story short (probably too late for that), it kinda sucked.

Now, even though I know the guy got better, I'm reluctant to buy any more of his stuff.

Bottom line is that, while I don't think that my first book needs to be so good that it compels everyone who reads it to proclaim me the next big thing, I can't afford to put something out there that is going to actively turn people off.

Thanks.

Brian


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