# The Fog Index



## 2WayParadox (Dec 18, 2014)

I came across this index when reading Joe Sugarman's '_Advertising secrets of the written word_'. 

This index takes the length of sentences and words into account and creates an index from them. 8 or lower means universal readability, 12 means high school level (18 yrs old). Any higher than 12 and we're getting into graduate level, scientific writing etc. And if you've ever read a bunch of scientific articles, you will know how exhausting those are. I can read dozens upon dozens of pages of proze, but scientific writing slows me right down.

I hadn't considered anything like this, writing was either understandable or cumbersome.

I don't think something like should be used as a guide to start tinkering with your prose, but it can be a clear indicator that your prose might scare off readers. About 12 is what a fiction should aim at in my opinion.

Gunning fog index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gunning Fog Index

PS: the index for the text above the links is 10.09, now ask yourself: is it bullshit?


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## Legendary Sidekick (Dec 18, 2014)

Yeah, I'd say it's BS because the calculation is based entirely on ratios.

I wrote a story for the Divine Rock Bands challenge, which is in script format. It has 183 punctuation marks, 989 words, and 134 words with 3+ syllables such as "Athena" and "forehead." The grade level is 7.581.

Given the option to edit a number and recalculate, I added an extra 9 to the word count. Not nine more words. I changed it to 9899 words and left the other numbers alone. Now that I'm averaging over 50 words a sentence, you need a PhD or better to understand my 22.18-grade level writing.

And of course, it calculates syllables based on the number of vowels, so "Aaaaaaaa" is a 3+ syllable word. 8 syllables, to be precise. "Syllable" has 2 syllables because screw you, Letter Y.


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## 2WayParadox (Dec 18, 2014)

I didn't ask if the formula could be broken, of course it can. We're talking about measuring something as complicated as the difficulty level of a written text.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Dec 18, 2014)

I realize you didn't ask, but still... it's just a math thing, which is why I say "BS."



Spoiler: the math



G = w/p * (s+1) * 0.4

(G = grade level; w = # of words; p = # of punctuation marks; s = # of multi-syllable words)

A ten-word sentence is grade 4. Add a 3+ syllable word, now it's grade 8. With TWO 3+ syllable words, you have grade 12!

Grade 16: "The quick, brown fox jumped over the beautiful, beautiful butterflies!"
w = 10; p = 1; s = 3; 10/1 * (3+1) = 40 * 0.4 = 16 = G




 I agree with the premise that 8th grade level reading is universal (newspapers are supposedly grade 4), but I don't agree that the above ratios give you any clear idea of where your writing stands regarding readers' ability to understand it. Yeah, if your sentences are too long, your story is hard to understand, but the same applies if your sentences are too short or not broken by commas (which are ignored by this calculator. It only looks for end marks).

This tool is more useful than the "Who Do I Write Like?" calculator, but only if you want to know how many words per sentence you average. That's the only accurate information it's giving you, and even that information is purely trivial. Beta readers are your key to finding out what unwritten information confused them in addition to what poor word choices broke immersion, what great lines entertained them, what characters made them care, etc.


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## 2WayParadox (Dec 18, 2014)

True, there's much to writing. What makes it valuable to me is that it's a new way to look at the quality of writing, I'd never seen anything like it before. And while I don't think I'll use it, I will remember what it is trying to measure.


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## chrispenycate (Dec 18, 2014)

Aaaarghh!! (in one syllable). I will never be able to dumb myself down far enough for American publishers. From a random lump of text I got 15.4. When I actually wrote a paying piece for Baen ( a technical bit for the Grantville Gazette {Flint's 163whatever universe}) they came back to me twice saying it was too difficult, that your average SF reader was a fourteen-year old boy (boys being known to be less literate than girls) and that both my vocabulary and sentence structure would lead to incomprehension and retreat to comic books.

I promise I tried (real paying copy? You bet I tried), but was unable to reach their aimed-for simplicity level, despite attempting all suggestions. The final version was very much a compromise. But the worst thing is that I can tell stories to five-year olds without compromising my principles. They work out words by context, and don't lose the thread when a sentence meanders over more than one page. I hold that if teenagers are now incapable of reading the books I was enjoying half a century ago because they're too difficult, the book publishers hold part of the responsibility.


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## 2WayParadox (Dec 18, 2014)

I can see how SF would hate this kind if approach more than anything else. I haven't read much SF, but as far as I know readers expect a level that's a little higher. So I don't really get those publishers' point.


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## Trick (Dec 18, 2014)

chrispenycate said:


> if teenagers are now incapable of reading the books I was enjoying half a century ago because they're too difficult, the book publishers hold part of the responsibility.



^THIS^ My sons will read the Hobbit before they are teenagers, or something equal should they not prefer fantasy (fingers crossed that they do). Much like writing, the way to become a better reader is to keep reading and challenging yourself. The Marketing, it's all about money, give the kids candy because it's easier than vegetables, don't challenge them because they might read someone else's stuff - is a bunch of BS. Don't lower the quality of the written work available to make more money, it's indecent. 

I know someone with a mild learning disability, he literally is unable to spell most words with more than two syllables. But when he was learning to read, his teacher (a very wonderful woman, god rest her soul) challenged him constantly. They could have stuck with Dr. Seuss and made both their lives 'easier' but they didn't. He reads 1000 page books now! His reading comprehension is well above high school and his social abilities have improved. 

If publishers won't challenge the kids of this world, it's up to parents and teachers! Die crappy books!


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## Penpilot (Dec 18, 2014)

I use an editing program called Style Writer. It uses this metric as part of its analysis of text. It's a useful tool, but it's not the be all and end all. The way I use it is if it flags something, then I take a second and third look at it. Sometimes I conclude the sentence could be written better. Other times, I think the way it's written is fine.

The final judgement should always be in human hands.

It's like anything in writing. There are always guidelines/rules that will put text on one side or another of a what the guidelines/rules will say is "right" or "wrong". To follow things blindly is a terrible mistake. There will always be exceptions. 

This is where the skill of the writer comes in. This is a tool for them to use, and when they use it they make conscious choices of whether to break a guideline/rule or not.  Like all tools, if it's used wrong, you can destroy something. If it's used right it can build wonders.


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## Feo Takahari (Dec 18, 2014)

For fun, I tried a piece I wrote from the POV of a 7-year-old. It's at a 5th-grade reading level. Maybe I used too many big words. (Then again, what accent pronounces "someone" with three syllables? It's sum-wun.)


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## Trick (Dec 18, 2014)

Feo Takahari said:


> For fun, I tried a piece I wrote from the POV of a 7-year-old. It's at a 5th-grade reading level. Maybe I used too many big words. (Then again, what accent pronounces "someone" with three syllables? It's sum-wun.)



Two words: Christopher Walken


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## 2WayParadox (Dec 19, 2014)

I think Penpilot's view is the best one: don't knock the tool but find out how you personally can get use out of it.


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## skip.knox (Dec 19, 2014)

I also call bs. First, I don't believe there's such a thing as a reading level, and certainly not one tied to grade level, since grade levels are themselves arbitrary and nearly unconnected to ability. They are but gates in the maze of mass education. But let us not rant.

Second, I'm a history prof. I long ago put all my lectures online. Not video (barf), but the actual text, written as essays. I wrote them for college students with no real attempt to soft-pedal the writing. From fairly early on, in the mid-1990s, I would get the occasional email from a public school teacher, or from a public school student, thanking me for making the material available. More to the point at hand, they regularly complimented me because the essays were easy to read.

As others have pointed out, "easiness" is not something that can be calculated. It varies by reader. The reason why "reading level" and such nonsense exists is to reassure administrators and policy makers, who fear to make decisions according to judgment and prefer to hide behind numbers. Oops, ranting again.

The OP was just trying to say here's something interesting. I suspect measures of writing is something of a raw nerve with many writers, and OP can be forgiven for being taken aback by some of the responses. My own response is this: there are many, many guidelines we can use to gain new perspectives on our own prose. So many of them are better than these mathematical pretenses, one would spend several lifetimes working through them before one got down to so-called measures of reading difficulty. Take this one off your list.


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## 2WayParadox (Dec 19, 2014)

@skip.knox: Which ones are on your list?


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## Legendary Sidekick (Dec 19, 2014)

@slip.knox,

I'm also a teacher. I've been to many teacher's meeting in which a teacher would ask, "Who determines reading level?" I think it makes sense for book stores to have a recommended age range. Even then, my six-year-old and her ten-year-old friend both love the _Whatever After_ series. I'm not sure if the recommended age is 6-8 or 9-12. A senior at my school told me she fondly remembers _Number the Stars_, which I read with her when she was in 6th grade. I was in my 30s at the time, and loved it. Like movies, some stories in print should be considered "for all ages."

Also, if you're a college professor creating easy-to-read materials, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say your students are in good hands because you're succeeding as a writer clearly conveying a message.


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## psychotick (Dec 19, 2014)

Hi,

I did a calc on the first page of my latest book The Godlost Land and got an 8.552, which I thought sounded good. A check on the first page of Maverick pubbed four years ago came in at 11.00. I've worked hard to make my books as readible as possible, and am apparently doing a better job.

Small sample I know, but these tools have their place.

Cheers Greg.


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## Guy (Dec 19, 2014)

chrispenycate said:


> I hold that if teenagers are now incapable of reading the books I was enjoying half a century ago because they're too difficult, the book publishers hold part of the responsibility.


The other possibility being that publishers don't know what the hell they're talking about.

Sorry, but I'm an educated man raised by educated people who placed a great deal of value on education. They were very well-read, articulate people. Being raised in such an environment resulted in an ability to create some fairly complex sentences and occasionally use some fairly big words. Gods forbid a reader might learn a new word or two every now and again, or that a writer isn't so contemptuous of readers that the writer doesn't talk down to them and assumes they're capable of actually understanding things.


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## 2WayParadox (Dec 19, 2014)

I think most of the time actual word choice is not an issue. Why use overly difficult words when you can use everyday language? Reading a word you don't know pulls you out of your reading and breaks up the flow, it would be a disservice to your reader. Does that mean that you need to dumb down your text? Of course not, I've never done anything like that before. I just write as I hear it in my head and I notice that most of the time word choice isn't really a problem.


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## Philster401 (Dec 19, 2014)

I know in some books they put definitions at the bottom of the page that helps if there is a word someone doesn't know.


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## 2WayParadox (Dec 19, 2014)

They do that in fiction?


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## Philster401 (Dec 19, 2014)

Yes not as much now and days but I'm pretty sure that I have seen older  books like The Once and Future King had them I think but I'm not exactly sure.


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## Guy (Dec 20, 2014)

2WayParadox said:


> I think most of the time actual word choice is not an issue. Why use overly difficult words when you can use everyday language?


That depends on what you're trying to portray.


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## psychotick (Dec 20, 2014)

Hi,

I've never heard of authors doing that, and I don't really agree with it. Your job as an author is to tell a story and entertain your readers. Not give them an education. The only time I could imagine something like that happening would be in childrens books where they are attempting to teach kids to read.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 20, 2014)

I amused myself be putting in some scenes from my wip into the tool.
What I did find is that the scenes from the first two chapters had a higher fog index on average than the scenes in my last chapter. In the first chapter the scenes are between 6 and 10, while in the last chapter the scenes are between 4 and 7.

This matches fairly well with my impression of how I've improved as a writer over the 18+ months I've been working on this story. I guess my language/voice when I started is a bit different to what it's like now.
I like to think I've improved - it feels like I have.

As for the index itself. I wouldn't put too much stock in it for individual texts, but rather as a means of comparing averages from very large samples.


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## chrispenycate (Dec 20, 2014)

My 'Once and future king' omnibus has no explanatory footnotes, so that must have been a special edition - perhaps for schools. But as to 'why' one would use a multisyllabic word when there was a simpler one available, sometimes it's to prevent repetition of a word, sometimes because synonyms are never quite identical in meaning, however similar, even if the difference is only in the emotional response of the author, but quite often it's how the rhythm of a word integrates into the rhythm of an entire sentence. This is almost but not quite poetry, and I for one attempt to make my text sound right, and are paced to their content.


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## Incanus (Dec 20, 2014)

chrispenycate said:


> My 'Once and future king' omnibus has no explanatory footnotes, so that must have been a special edition - perhaps for schools. But as to 'why' one would use a multisyllabic word when there was a simpler one available, sometimes it's to prevent repetition of a word, sometimes because synonyms are never quite identical in meaning, however similar, even if the difference is only in the emotional response of the author, but quite often it's how the rhythm of a word integrates into the rhythm of an entire sentence. This is almost but not quite poetry, and I for one attempt to make my text sound right, and are paced to their content.



Well said.  I do it for every one of these reasons.  While I enjoy a great many books that have been written in a plain, easy-to-read style, I give extra points to stories that employ color, lyrical cadence, varied pacing and structures, interesting words, and also 'normal' words used interestingly.  I guess I'm just a little weird, but rather than bogging me down or breaking immersion, I find that these things, when done right, greatly enhances the emerging imagery in my mind, making the story really sing.


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## skip.knox (Dec 21, 2014)

But that's exactly my point, Sidekick Who Is Legendary. Writing clearly is the goal, not writing to a grade level, which is in any case a chimera. I've also had my college students say they had to look up words. Sometimes, they were words I had rather expected them to know. 

Which goes to demonstrate the age-old adage: it just goes to show, ya just never know.


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## skip.knox (Dec 21, 2014)

> Why use overly difficult words when you can use everyday language? Reading a word you don't know pulls you out of your reading and breaks up the flow, it would be a disservice to your reader. 

I disagree. I clearly remember reading H.G. Wells at the tender age of fourteen or thereabouts. Plenty of words I did not recognize. This was in the 1960s, so there was no cell phone handy with which to look up a word. Sometimes I was able to figure out the word from context, other times it remained a mystery. Most notably I remember working my way through The Island of Dr Moreau without ever once understanding what the hell the word 'vivisection' meant. But I encountered it enough that I took the time to look it up, after I'd finished the story. Ohhhhh!

But the story remains clear (dare I say vivid) in my mind to this day, and I should hate to think old Herbert George would have written 'down to my level'. The very thought is disgusting. On the contrary, his prose inspired me, for it showed me there was more to language than the everyday.

Never, ever, ever  -- and by this I mean never, ever -- underestimate your audience. I don't care how old they are.


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