# Contemplating Magic



## Mason (Apr 24, 2013)

Contemplating my current idea/project. In this world only children can use magic, they lose the gift upon reaching puberty. In the story a mentor teaches a young wizard how to use his powers for good while the BBEG chase them both down. What are the implications of a world where only children can use magic? Madness? I can imagine a child-wizard throwing a tantrum and raining down thunder and fireballs, turning the transgressors into toads, that sort of thing... any thoughts?


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## Feo Takahari (Apr 24, 2013)

I'd predict normalization of child soldiers, raised from a very young age to fight and die for their commanders. Depending on how magic is inherited, many families may keep their children's magical abilities secret so the army can't claim them.


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## wordwalker (Apr 24, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> I'd predict normalization of child soldiers, raised from a very young age to fight and die for their commanders. Depending on how magic is inherited, many families may keep their children's magical abilities secret so the army can't claim them.



Ewww!

Sounds great. Of course, it works mainly with nations that have a religious or cultural code strong enough to let parents send their babies into battle. And those nations would soon have every "softer" nation on the defensive. (And of course, the only way to stop them is to be willing to kill children.)

Yeah, ewww. If you want dark, there it is.


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## skip.knox (Apr 25, 2013)

How little? Infants? In the womb? It's an interesting concept, but might be difficult to realize.


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## Mindfire (Apr 25, 2013)

Perhaps a culture and social order that highly privileges children, maybe for religious reasons. Think Kids Next Door where (from the kids POV) child society is good and normative while teens and adults are considered misguided at best and diabolical at worst, with a few notable exceptions. Puberty might be seen as The First Death or The Death-Before-Death or something otherwise ominous.


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## Ireth (Apr 25, 2013)

I'd advise against having children acquire magic in the womb; I can see it having a lot of nasty consequences for the mother. Likewise, infants with magic could cause a lot of havoc, since they don't have the intelligence needed to control their emotions and reactions to things, and similarly their power. (Also, if magic requires vocal spells in order to work, an infant or very young child just learning to speak wouldn't be able to pronounce things correctly, which could seriously mess things up.)


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## Feo Takahari (Apr 25, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> Perhaps a culture and social order that highly privileges children, maybe for religious reasons. Think Kids Next Door where (from the kids POV) child society is good and normative while teens and adults are considered misguided at best and diabolical at worst, with a few notable exceptions. Puberty might be seen as The First Death or The Death-Before-Death or something otherwise ominous.



Depending on how extreme it gets, I'm not sure how long that culture would survive. Children can't be expected to serve as leaders, diplomats, or inventors, and they're somewhat iffy as artists, so it would likely stagnate, and might be overtaken by other cultures with a less Logan's Run approach to things.


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## Mindfire (Apr 25, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> Depending on how extreme it gets, I'm not sure how long that culture would survive. Children can't be expected to serve as leaders, diplomats, or inventors, and they're somewhat iffy as artists, so it would likely stagnate, and might be overtaken by other cultures with a less Logan's Run approach to things.



You clearly haven't watched Codename: Kids Next Door.


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## skip.knox (Apr 29, 2013)

Mason never responded on this thread, always a little irritating, but the question got me thinking.

In any world where there's magic, how young will people be before their talents are manifest? Puberty is an easy one to choose, but other choices are possible. Too young, and it's terrifying. I'd hate to see a temper tantrum from a two-year-old magician.

But age can go in the other direction, too. And it can vary by race, of course. So maybe elves live a hundred years before they acquire any gifts. Or maybe there's this human who is 75 and suddenly finds she can summon demons. 

And what does it mean to "have magic"?  I can see scenarios where the ability is there but must be trained to be used at all. Or there's an ability but it is all over the place, utterly unpredictable until practice harnesses it. Is learning magic like learning to play the piano, with formal lessons? Like learning a craft? Or is it like learning to ride a bike, or learning to run long distance or dive deep? And maybe some of the stages of learning can be age-dependent as well. And maybe it can be different for boys than for girls.

Anyway, just wanted to toss the ideas out there. Here.  Wherever.


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## Mindfire (Apr 29, 2013)

Magic in my world is a bit like martial arts. The potential is there theoretically from birth (depending on what culture you're born into), and you might accidentally tap into it once or twice, but you're not going to get very far in using it without training and practice.


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## Mason (Apr 29, 2013)

Sorry for not responding promptly...

@mindfire

 I have never heard of that Kids Next Door, I'm not sure I follow what your saying exactly...

@Ireth

 I wouldn't be able to take the story seriously. Acquiring magic in the womb might be a minor note in the text (perhaps a horrible urban legend about a reaaaaally bad pregnancy) but beyond that I think it will manifest around the time full upright walking is possible. (don't hold me to that)

@skip.knox. 

The idea is in its infancy at the moment. I have not even begun to work out exactly how powerful the magic in this world actually is. There will not be a wizard in every town and tavern...but we are talking children here, not infants or toddlers. Let's be honest kids are impressionable, every major power in this world will be searching far and wide to find the "magic boy or girl".  I suppose that is where most of the major conflict _could_ potentially arise...but my story will be about one kids realization that magic (and power in general) can be corrupted and twisted. At least...that is what I think it will be about. Thanks all for taking a look.


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## Mindfire (Apr 29, 2013)

Mason said:


> Sorry for not responding promptly...
> 
> @mindfire
> 
> I have never heard of that Kids Next Door, I'm not sure I follow what your saying exactly...










			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Codename: Kids Next Door is an American animated television series created by Tom Warburton and produced by Curious Pictures in Santa Monica, California. The main characters of the series are five 10-year-old children who operate from their high-tech tree house. Their mission is to fight crimes against children committed by adults, senior citizens, teenagers, and other evil children. They make up what is known as Sector V of a worldwide organization called the Kids Next Door.



Google is your friend.


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## wyrmfoe (Apr 30, 2013)

What if children are the only ones who can use magic?  They are literally infused with it and as they get older it fades away, leaving them fairly normal except for a small spark that lets adults detect magic, but not enough to manipulate.  What if the kids themselves can't manipulate this magic without some sort of help, possibly from an external device the child must sit in?  The child's magic powers the machine and the machine does the magic, whether it is manipulating weather or broadcasting information or destroying cities.  Children aren't soldiers, they are weapons.

A darker idea.  What if the mother can tap into that power and suck it out of their unborn children through some dark ritual that infuses the mother with the power to do magic at the expense of the child's life?  The child's soul is converted into magic power that the mother can now use briefly.


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## Steerpike (Apr 30, 2013)

wyrmfoe said:


> A darker idea.  What if the mother can tap into that power and suck it out of their unborn children through some dark ritual that infuses the mother with the power to do magic at the expense of the child's life?  The child's soul is converted into magic power that the mother can now use briefly.



Army platoons of pregnant women ready to unleash their magic on the enemy?


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## wyrmfoe (May 1, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Army platoons of pregnant women ready to unleash their magic on the enemy?



Possibly.  Which makes the outcome of the process even more gruesome because these women might give birth to their stillborn on the battlefield.  If you want to go down this particular rabbit hole then there are plenty of very dark, very terrible places you can go with it.  For instance, the stillborn could be easily possessed by dark spirits and turned into flesh eating monsters.


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## Mindfire (May 1, 2013)

Okay, that's messed up. It seems to me that a book about child wizards (and I assume child protagonists) would be better off going for a more lighthearted, less gruesome tone.


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## Mason (May 1, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> Okay, that's messed up. It seems to me that a book about child wizards (and I assume child protagonists) would be better off going for a more lighthearted, less gruesome tone.



Oh totally way too dark. That seriously went bad pretty quick. Its a book about magic wielding children grappling with morality and terrible powers. You guys riffing on the darker side of the idea so hard I didn't want to say anything.


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## A. E. Lowan (May 1, 2013)

Oh, it's pretty easy to go dark on this topic.  Two words:  Ender's Game

And children in war is absolutely nothing new, even for America.  Up until the rise of Social Security numbers and difficult to fake ID's, the U.S. has fielded child soldiers (granted, they lied about their ages, but honestly who would really mistake a 14-year-old for an 18-year-old?) in the combat theatre right up until WWII.  Maybe Korea, but I'm not sure about that one.  Child soldiers are currently rampant in war zones from Africa to South East Asia.  Children make excellent soldiers - they don't question adult authority, and they are still developing a conscience so they are capable of committing atrocities without blinking.  Why do you think our own military prefers soldiers just out of school?  

You say you're thinking about your protagonist coming to grips with the corruptive possibilities of power?  Yeah, that goes dark pretty fast.  If you want to keep it light, you may have to put some effort into it.


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## wyrmfoe (May 1, 2013)

aelowan said:


> Oh, it's pretty easy to go dark on this topic.  Two words:  Ender's Game
> 
> And children in war is absolutely nothing new, even for America.  Up until the rise of Social Security numbers and difficult to fake ID's, the U.S. has fielded child soldiers (granted, they lied about their ages, but honestly who would really mistake a 14-year-old for an 18-year-old?) in the combat theatre right up until WWII.  Maybe Korea, but I'm not sure about that one.  Child soldiers are currently rampant in war zones from Africa to South East Asia.  Children make excellent soldiers - they don't question adult authority, and they are still developing a conscience so they are capable of committing atrocities without blinking.  Why do you think our own military prefers soldiers just out of school?
> 
> You say you're thinking about your protagonist coming to grips with the corruptive possibilities of power?  Yeah, that goes dark pretty fast.  If you want to keep it light, you may have to put some effort into it.



Yea, Ender's Game came to mind when I first started reading through these posts.  We are talking about weaponizing children if you think about it and anyway you slice it, that's treading on very dark territory.  We don't even have to put them on the battlefield honestly.  Let's use our own history for a moment.  There's been a long history of exploiting child labor in all sorts of industries.  Children can use magic, you say?  Oh, I can think of all kinds of way the upper class will love to exploit that.


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## Mindfire (May 1, 2013)

I don't agree that something has to get involved just because children get into the fighting. I mean, look at Chronicles of Narnia. It's about as lighthearted as they come (until you get to The Last Battle anyway) and about 90% of the onscreen battles have children in them.


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## HabeasCorpus (May 2, 2013)

wyrmfoe said:


> Possibly.  Which makes the outcome of the process even more gruesome because these women ...



Or... or... they could be pregnant and pissed.  I testify before this honored assembly that there is neither anything more potentially beautiful or potentially horrifying than an angry pregnant woman.  

/chauvinism 

In all seriousness though, one thing you may wish to consider is that during the development of children, there are some pretty drastic and pretty distinct stages.  Things that were important one moment aren't the next (and by moment, that could literally be a moment whereas in other cases, it could be a matter of a week or a year).  You will likely be dealing with a rather limited range of depth of thought and depth of emotion as well unless you imbue upon them somehow an adult's perspective, either via POV or other device.  Either way, as with all things, I would love to see it work, but you've got your work cut out for you.


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## Feo Takahari (May 2, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> I don't agree that something has to get involved just because children get into the fighting. I mean, look at Chronicles of Narnia. It's about as lighthearted as they come (until you get to The Last Battle anyway) and about 90% of the onscreen battles have children in them.



I can't track down the quote, but there was something I read once--I think it was in the comments to a story called Toy Hammer. Apparently, someone had questioned why so many likeable characters died in battle. The author responded that if you're writing about a bloody war, but the good guys all come out okay, that's not military fiction, that's military pornography.

(I gave up on "The Magician's Nephew" a little after Jadis woke up, so if all the battles in Narnia are fought with pillows or something, I'm sorry.)

Anyway, whether and how these children would be exploited depends both on what exactly they can do (maybe magic can't kill?) and exactly how rare they are (is the populace even aware magic exists?)


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## Mindfire (May 2, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> I can't track down the quote, but there was something I read once--I think it was in the comments to a story called Toy Hammer. Apparently, someone had questioned why so many likeable characters died in battle. The author responded that if you're writing about a bloody war, but the good guys all come out okay, that's not military fiction, that's military pornography.
> 
> (I gave up on "The Magician's Nephew" a little after Jadis woke up, so if all the battles in Narnia are fought with pillows or something, I'm sorry.)
> 
> Anyway, whether and how these children would be exploited depends both on what exactly they can do (maybe magic can't kill?) and exactly how rare they are (is the populace even aware magic exists?)



But this is fantasy, not military fiction. The rules are different.


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## Feo Takahari (May 2, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> But this is fantasy, not military fiction. The rules are different.



Well, Toy Hammer is military fantasy . . .

Like I said, it's beside the point if the author can keep the kids out of war.


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## Mindfire (May 2, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> Well, Toy Hammer is military fantasy . . .
> 
> Like I said, it's beside the point if the author can keep the kids out of war.



My point is that fantasy is not beholden to any rules except internal consistency (and even that can be hand-waved). Or to paraphrase Joffrey, "the author can do as he likes". The characters of the Percy Jackson series fight battles all the time, and that series is also quite light-hearted.


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## Mason (May 2, 2013)

The assumption has been made that magic is only useful in war. Does magic necessarily mean violence? What about invisibility spells, levitation, breathing underwater, creating light sources etc.?


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## wyrmfoe (May 2, 2013)

Mason said:


> The assumption has been made that magic is only useful in war. Does magic necessarily mean violence? What about invisibility spells, levitation, breathing underwater, creating light sources etc.?


Right, you could very well do a whole thing about these kids using their magic for industrial purposes in a factory or a warehouse or out in the field or a mine.  There are plenty of ways to go with this that don't involve turning the children into weapons.


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## Steerpike (May 2, 2013)

wyrmfoe said:


> Right, you could very well do a whole thing about these kids using their magic for industrial purposes in a factory or a warehouse or out in the field or a mine.  There are plenty of ways to go with this that don't involve turning the children into weapons.



That's true, and I think all those things would happen. But it does strain credulity a bit for me, unless there is a very compelling explanation, to think that no one would use them for war if their magic offers an advantage.


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## Feo Takahari (May 2, 2013)

How about this: magic is flashy, but for one reason or another (you can determine why), it's generally considered to be useless. It's treated as a curiosity of youth, like how small children can hear dog whistles or tell what broccoli really tastes like. Then recently, some villain figured out a potential use for it, and he wants to exploit children for that use. You can avoid the creepiness of HAVING a world of children as tools or weapons, but create tension with the villain's plan to create one (even child-appropriate stories that otherwise maintain a light tone can often get away with detailed speculation on things like this.)


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## Queshire (May 2, 2013)

Going along with making it flashy but useless, what if magic isn't real for adults? What if it's only little more than just a hologram or something for adults, but the younger you are the more real it is? Something like an imaginary friend or something like that?


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## Mason (May 2, 2013)

Thanks for the input guys!

 Here's where I'm at with my world: 

 Many centuries before (the story takes place) magic was incredibly powerful and destructive. There was some horrible catastrophic war that basically shattered the old civilizations. After this event magic users were less and less common, eventually almost dying out completely. The remaining light of civilization has rebuilt without the benefit of magic...

 In contemporary times, the gift has shown up only in children and only for a short period of time. The devout claim it is the gods taking magic for fear of the destruction it once caused. Scholars believe magic is a natural force of the world and is experiencing some sort of backlash or fallout because of the war. But of course the bad guys want to find a way to use it for evil once again...

Intriguing enough to continue? Of course all of this information is not general knowledge to the reader or even some of the characters...the history of magic and its uses would be scattered throughout the prose.


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## Queshire (May 2, 2013)

Honestly, if it's rare and only now starting to come back then that would increase the chance of the kids being taken to be studied / turned into weapons.


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## A. E. Lowan (May 3, 2013)

Or, what if the magic showing up in only children is just the first stage of its complete return?  What if things are changing?  What happens to the first child to hit that milestone wherein they are expected to lose their magic... and it does not fade?


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## AnnaBlixt (May 5, 2013)

I predict people with the gift having loads of children. 

And also perhaps a whole science around the prevention of puberty. In a fantasy setting, why not develop herbs or drugs (hormonal?) that could delay the onset of puberty?


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