# How to handle a Catholic character?



## Tom (Mar 25, 2015)

To start off, let me just say that I'm scared _stiff_ of writing this character's religion. 

I have little experience with Catholicism, despite hailing from a city famous for its strong Catholic roots. Both my parents were raised Catholic, but left the denomination and became Protestant. I know how to make the sign of the cross, used to be able to recite maybe one Hail Mary, and can only manage to follow along (or at least pretend I can) when I attend Mass with my Catholic extended family. That's the extent of my knowledge. 

My character is Irish Catholic, but he's kind of a casual observant. He probably only goes to Mass on holidays. I'm not sure how to write his attitude toward religion, since I don't know the Catholic perspective. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Mar 25, 2015)

Best advice I can give is handle him honestly. By that I mean sell neither the character nor the religion short.

My dad is a former Catholic, he converted to Mormonism when he met and married my mother. He still, in some ways, holds to his former Cathlocism. He uses Catholic swears, (like when he hits his thumb with a hammer he says "Mary, Martha, and Joseph.") He still uses some Catholic sayings he learned from nuns while growing up ("Sing at the table, dance in your bed and the devil will get you by the hair of your head."). This as waned over the past thirty years from his conversion to Mormonism but it's still there. So if I were to put a character like my dad in the story I would make sure he is that blend of Catholic upbringing and Mormon adulthood. That is being honest to the character, making sure they are who they are.

Now comes the trickier part: being honest to the religion.This one is tricky. I can't count how many times I see a Mormon in pop culture or other places and say, "That is how exactly none of us are." Or, "No that is not what the religion teaches ya danguses. Use something other than wikipedia." One of my personal favorite lines I've actually said to people, "No I don't have multiple wives. Hell, last I looked I don't have a wife, or a girlfriend, or ever had one." (I was twenty at the time). So, when looking at religion and writing about it and a person's feeling towards it you'll have to be honest about what the religion actually is and not what you _think_ it is. For the actual religion you will have to look at what Catholics actually teach, which involves looking at their scriptural interpretations. And you will have to observe the Catholic culture, by either speaking with Catholics or by reading about them from their sources and from _neutral_ outside sources. I want to emphasize the need for the outside sources to be neutral. There are tons of anti-catholic publications out there. And they are vile. They're tainted, wrong, and just plain evil. (Note not a Catholic but any such anti-pick-your-religion is tainted, wrong and just plain evil) These publications are usually lies sprinkled in with just enough truth to make it plausible. Steer clear of those and you should get a fairly accurate representation of the Catholic faith and how a Chrieaster (I heard the term used by my Catholic grandmother to describe Catholics that only attend on holidays) would view the religion.

Hope that helps.


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## Asura Levi (Mar 25, 2015)

If he is a Catholic that only goes to the Mass on holidays, than it would be any little different than you yourself.

I'm Catholic, was raised in a traditional Catholic family, have all the Catholic education, etc...
So I'll give my personal perspective on the subject: just made him as you would do anyone else, really. 
He might pray once in a while and promise something when the times are hard, a promise that he will seldom fulfill. 
He might be offended by someone else comment about Jesus or the Virgin Mary, but he won't act on it and he won't try to convert anyone.

As I said, this is a personal view, pretty much myself here, albeit I go to church when able, not only on holidays, but I won't fret if I can't. I won't go if too tired, etc...
(This is a very tricky subject and I do hope I haven't break any of the forum rules, somewhat.  )

Again, just write him as you would write anyone else.


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## TheCatholicCrow (Mar 25, 2015)

We call them"Cape Catholics" or "Cafeteria / A la Carte Catholics" [CAPE comes from Mass attendance on Christmas, Advent (or Ash Wednesday), Pentecost and Easter] 

"Capes" or "lukewarm" Catholics differ in every country & region. Among Hispanics being a Cape means you(r character) probably prays semi-frequently but doesn't attend the sacraments while, for instance, the Italians might use birth control & sleep around and never pray but they usually attend Mass regularly. 

What time era are you dealing with? 

I can talk to you about Catholicism until your ears bleed (and if I don't notice I'll probably keep talking).    

A good place to start might be "Catholicism for Dummies"- it should give you all of the information you need tot know without getting too technical or overwhelming. Otherwise, if you're okay w Anthropology books I had one that I really liked on Irish Catholics called the Occasions of Faith . He's a tad critical but I think its overall a decent representation of the Irish Catholic experience. If I remember correctly it was very approachable and alternated chapters between anecdotes and his interpretation/analysis of the events. 

I'm Catholic but I've never been to Ireland so I can't speak for how their lukewarms & Cape's practice. 

I don't want to discourage you (I LOVE that you're trying to bring in a different perspective and I applaud you on that). But something to keep in mind is that religion is more than just beliefs. It is also very deeply tied to culture (and vice versa). Clifford Geertz (who has set the dominant social view in the field) argued that Religion IS Culture. Along with the beliefs come practices, rituals, texts, symbols, images, etc. If you're raised Christian and see a white dove you probably think of the Holy Spirit while the same bird would make an indigenous individual probably think of their dead grandma (or something along those lines). 

Regardless of personal devotions, there's probably also discomfort or anxiety with other religions (I feel SO OUT OF PLACE when I go to Protestant weddings or services - the lack of uniformity in the ritual is literally stressful. In Mass I know exactly what I'm supposed to say and do at all times so there's a definite comfort in that). Clapping? No thank you! Women on the altar? Nope! Jeans or sandals? Noooo!!!!! Entering the building without a veil? With my elbows or knees showing? NOOOOOOOOOO!!!! [I really do practice my religion though so I'm probably way more devout than your character would be but the thought of these makes me uncomfortable. Can I pray dressed in anything? Of course -but the way I was raised makes me feel like that's really weird & disrespectful.]

Even if your character no longer believes in his/her religion, in some way the way they were raised forms the way they think for life. 

If they (later) reject the religion, there's a tendency to be skeptical or hateful of (what they come to believe were the "lies" they were taught). [I forget the movie right now but there's one w Ryan Gosling where he's a (former Judaic) Skinhead - the ending is bizarre but I think they did an excellent job of showing his character's reluctant respect for the Synagogue and the Torah even though he steals the text & is trying to blow the temple up he still scolds his girlfriend for touching the Torah with her bare hands.] A very strong sense of taboo is created and even people who leave their religions often keep these for life. 

Ursula Hegi's _Stones From the River_ features a MC w Dwarfism around the WWII era in Germany. Gertrude Montag (the character) is Catholic but mostly lukewarm. 

Another character that comes to mind is Peggy in MadMen. She often says very little about her religion (though she'll sometimes say "I was raised Catholic")- its really her sister and mother's devotions that are more apparent which contrasts with her lack of devotion without her having to explicitly state "I'm no longer part of the Church". 

I recently read Chuck Palahanuik's _ Survivor _ where the MC is former cult member. Its a very depressing Existentialist Atheist book but if you want to go the "religion only matters in times of personal crisis" route this might help give you some ideas.   

If there's anything you want to know about Catholicism (literally ANYTHING) feel free to ask me or shoot me a PM.


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## Mythopoet (Mar 25, 2015)

Is there any particular situation or context where this character's religion is supposed to show through? It might be easier to advise you if we had some more information and more insight into the other aspects of the character. There isn't a particular "Catholic" way of acting. The Catholic Church is probably the Church with the widest variety of types of practitioners (or non-practitioners who still identify as Catholic) to be honest. 

If you don't want to go into detail here feel free to PM me. I'm a Catholic as well and married to someone who comes from a long line of Irish Catholics.


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## TheCatholicCrow (Mar 25, 2015)

I *think* not attending Mass every week is a widely American thing ... I suspect that in Ireland Mass attendance is still much much higher. 

American Catholics draw quite a bit of influence from our Protestant (and even Jewish) brothers and sisters, friends, teachers, neighbors, etc. The notion that the Sabbath requires rest rather than church attendance sounds like a Protestant concept that has crossed over into American Catholicism. 

Another good book to pick up might be White Bread Protestants    which is a wonderful study of American Protestantism. I read it (as a Catholic) and learned tons about American Protestantism. You might find that things you take for granted as being "Christian" (across the board) are decidedly localized American Protestant experiences. (Like reverse research as in "this is NOT what Catholics do"). 

If your story takes place in the modern era you might want to look into the Charismatic Catholic Renewal movement. I'm personally not a fan but among people that are there's a tendency to take a more Protestant (Methodist I believe) approach to prayer and spirituality. This might add to your list of things to research but it would definitely help when you go to write the character. (Charismatics began in the US and have spread elsewhere). 

If this is all too much and the timeline fits, you could have him/her be a Protestant from Northern Ireland ...


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## Devor (Mar 25, 2015)

I'm a convert from Protestantism to Catholicism, so my perspective may be a little different than others.

Here are a few of the things that still strike me as different now years after I made the decision to become Catholic (and had absolutely nothing to do with that choice):

 - There's a history, and it's very local.  Nobody knows the history of the Church.  But they sure know the history and stories of saints from their country or field of business.  Nevermind the "they pray to saints" thing for a moment; they also like to talk about them and tell their stories, even people who are half-hearted about their faith.  The more serious Catholics will go on to quote their favorite saints.

 - There's a sense of obligation and community that's going to be there, nevermind their acceptance of doctrine.  I've heard people say, "I'm not sure I believe in God, but I'm still Catholic."  From a Protestant background, I can only think, "Then what in the world are you doing at an after-Mass luncheon?"  But it's the community, and the obligation to that community, which keeps people participating even when their faith fails.

 - Priests drink.  One of my first memories drinking, I was 19, sitting outdoors at a little shop in Germany with a beer and a priest (I was still Protestant).  At my church they also serve Bloody Marys at those after-Mass luncheons, which happen about every two months.  Also, Sundays are considered feast days, and many Saints also have feast days depending on where you live, so you'll find a lot of Catholic events that are tied to food.

 - It's really common for Catholics to take trips.  They go on pilgrimages to the shrines in Europe.  They see the Holy Land. They build poor people homes in Kansas.  They do who-knows-what in Haiti.  They do visit-swap-things with churches in other countries.  They go to world youth day or drive across country to see the Pope.  I mean, not everybody goes by any means, but in a single community you'll find many people who have gone on these kinds of trips and will talk about them openly.  A Church will also have a guest priests come and speak all the time, maybe about their religious order, or you'll get a priest from Africa, or a nun to talk about their charity work.  Taken all together, you get to feel a very real connection to the rest of the world.

 - The Mass is super boring and everybody knows it.  Even the songs are dull.  But you can't say it.  The reverence Catholics have for their Mass is very personal and real.

I hope some of that helps!


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## Mythopoet (Mar 25, 2015)

Devor said:


> I'm a convert from Protestantism to Catholicism, so my perspective may be a little different than others.



:wavespin: High five! Me too. 




Devor said:


> - The Mass is super boring and everybody knows it.  Even the songs are dull.  But you can't say it.  The reverence Catholics have for their Mass is very personal and real.



On the plus side, it's always exactly an hour long. I never went to a church that actually kept a schedule before going to mass. It was always, "church service is as long as it takes, depending on how the Holy Spirit moves us". That may be an Evangelical thing though.


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## Devor (Mar 25, 2015)

Mythopoet said:


> :wavespin: High five! Me too.



Cool!




> On the plus side, it's always exactly an hour long. I never went to a church that actually kept a schedule before going to mass. It was always, "church service is as long as it takes, depending on how the Holy Spirit moves us". That may be an Evangelical thing though.



So true.  My First Baptist church kept usually a schedule, but it ran long a lot.  I remember standing outside the door at 11:35, five minutes late, and still waiting for the 10:00 service to let out.


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## Devor (Mar 25, 2015)

Asura Levi said:


> (This is a very tricky subject and I do hope I haven't break any of the forum rules, somewhat.  )



The forum rules are that you can mention religion, you can ask people about their religion, but you can't try to disprove or argue against anyone's religion.

Also, you have to be respectful, but that's also the rule in general.


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## TheCatholicCrow (Mar 25, 2015)

Mythopoet said:


> On the plus side, it's always exactly an hour long.



 Unless you go to a Extraordinary Form Mass (the Latin Mass for you non-Caths out there). 

Yes on the drinking. I don't drink but EVERYONE I know does. Protestants took the prohibition pretty seriously and have maintained more rigid beliefs about alcohol in general while Catholics don't usually shy away from a glass of wine or two (or five)... I read a study that said Catholics are 2 - 3X as likely to drink regularly than Protestants (in the US). You might also consider ... we have the Italians, Hispanics, AND Irish. Catholics generally drink (casually) and often. 

I forgot to add that Irish priests have REALLY short homilies. It's not uncommon for their Mass to be under an hour. (Their confessions are super straightforward too. Others might ask you questions or give you a mini-lecture on why your sins are wrong & what you need to do to change but the Irish priests are like "Okay, well, pray 3 Our Fathers and ask for God's forgiveness").

We pray before every meal (together) and the prayer never really changes. We like repetition can be (and is) comforting. We know what we're expected to say/pray and we can add on to it but we also know its not an open-mic thing. We don't use the same tones and religious language as Protestants do when we pray (namely our prayers are more straightforward and don't delve into a dozen names for Jesus ["Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior, my redeemer, the Holy of Holys, whose name I lift on High, Jesus my rock and salvation, my friend and messiah, the Lamb of God ... bless this food.")

AND saint statues and crucifixes EVERYWHERE in every room of the house, on kitchen aprons, on key chains, dangling from the rear view mirror. EVERYWHERE. 
In my family we're all named after saints as well. Really- its a pretty big thing. One of the families in my parish named every daughter after St Ann (Jesus' grandmother) : Mary-Ann, Molly-Ann, Lily-Ann, and there's another but I can't remember it atm.  In my own family we use first or middles - I'm Stephanie so mine comes from the Biblical St Stephen but others include Adam, Noah, Augustine, Faustina, Therese, Jordan (after the river), Maria, Grace, Hope, Faith, and Anthony (there's only 9 of us ... this list includes middle names). We all have our favorite (patron) saints and personal devotions (I like the Sacred Heart & Catherine of Alexandria, others might be partial to Aloysius, Martin, or Patrick). 

Speaking of which, not every family has a ton of kids but some do... in my small town I know a family with 10 children, two with 7, and my own with (my siblings + myself makes 9). These are the ones that come to mind (the people I grew up with) there's probably several more that I'm forgetting. 

3 O'clock PM is the Holy hour and 3AM is "the devil's hour". We keep our palms from Palm Sunday and have them around the house (you're supposed to turn them in to burn for Ash Wednesday but we somehow never remember so we have tons all around the house. They're intricately folded into crosses, roses, etc.) 

We LOVE candles. We have holy water fonts at the entrances / exits of the house. 

There's seasons in the Church. And tons and tons of options for novenas and devotions. 

There are 3 basic types of Catholic [stereotypes]. 
Traditionalists- (which is where I fall) this includes everyone from SSPX (a schismatic group that rejects Vatican II and the current pope) to the rest of us who just prefer to pray in Latin. Trads have a tendency to believe that the height of the Church (Theologically and in practice) has already passed and our current church is not doing the Faith justice. More emphasis is placed on doctrine and practice than social justice (which is viewed as something you do personally and frequently but doesn't need to be discussed all the time ... along with the fact that "Jesus Loves you" ohh ... that gets under our skin. WE KNOW! If we didn't we wouldn't be there ...) Trads can get a bit elitist sometimes and are easily annoyed with people that don't take everything in the faith as seriously as they do.    

Moderates incorporate a less strict view of the religion and might be flexible in their interpretation (this can include Charismatics). This is where most people fall. They're okay with clapping, guitars and drums or synthesizer in the Mass etc. They believe in "Christian unity" and (mis)interpret the phrase "Ecumenism" to extend to all Christian religions. (Ecumenism technically refers to the groups of Apostolics that join us in Ecumenical meetings). They believe the Church is currently at its greatest point.

Finally there's the so-called "Progressives". Make no mistake about it, they believe themselves to be Catholic but according to actual doctrine they're usually "latae sententiae" excommunicated though they're probably not even aware of it. They push for abortion, gay marriage, female clerics, etc. They believe the Church is "archaic" and needs to adapt to the modern era. With this mindset "the best is yet to come." Most of us don't see these as Catholics at all because, well, they technically aren't. 

Hope this helps!


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## TheCatholicCrow (Mar 25, 2015)

You might find these useful 

Catholic News, Commentary, Information, Resources, and the Liturgical Year - Catholic Culture


EWTN Global Catholic Television Network: Catholic TV, Catholic Radio, and Catholic News

Catholic Answers

NEW ADVENT: Home



[This is a traditional one that focuses a lot on history]
Fish Eaters: The Whys and Hows of Traditional Catholicism


This is probably way more info than you'll need but I'm always of the opinion that its better to over research than be unprepared


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## Legendary Sidekick (Mar 25, 2015)

@Mytho, Devor,

My wife can top you on the conversion thing. From Taoist to Catholic at some point in her early teens. She went to a Catholic school (in Hong Kong) and thought it made more sense than the religion of her family. So did her siblings, apparently, as her sister is a Baptist and her brother is a Buddhist. My wife (the youngest of the three) got her parents to convert to Catholic.

I was always Catholic, and when I met my wife ten years ago, she took me to a Taoist funeral. She thought it would weird me out, but I was fascinated, in fact. I said my prayers in silence and didn't make the sign of the cross. Being Catholic, I have no qualms about making the sign of the cross publicly, like if I'm praying before eating at a restaurant. But at a funeral for non-Catholics, I can pray without moving my hands.


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## psychotick (Mar 25, 2015)

Hi,

You learn something new every day! Catholic Crow I'd never heard of the SSPX and I find it hard to imagine a group of Catholics that don't accept the pope. It seems almost impossible to me. But then I speak as an Anglican.

As for the OP could I suggest going to a service or two. It would seem the easiest way to get a feel for the people and the faith.

If you want to gain an interesting outlook on what it means to be Catholic could I recommend any of the books by Karen Armstrong. She's an ex-nun who writes at length in defence of her faith, and she has a refreshing outlook. For her the faith is about the praxis - the doing - as opposed to the dogma, and as she rightly points out in my view Christianity is something that's meant to be lived.

Also I think there's one thing missing from this thread - the understanding that most people aren't their faith first. They're people first, just like everyone else. Some of them follow and devoutly believe in particular faiths. Some don't. But my though would be to first write your MC as a man, then see how following a particular faith however loosely, flavours his character and his life.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Tom (Mar 25, 2015)

Oops, I probably should have specified more details about my character/setting. Well, the setting is modern, and mostly revolves around the major cities in Western/Central New York--Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse...Buffalo is a very big center for American Catholicism, having been inundated by Irish, Italian, and Polish immigrants during the early 1900s. You're guaranteed to find a Catholic church on pretty much every street. Rochester, not as much, and Syracuse I'm not sure about.

My character, Will, is a Japanese-Irish vampire. (Weird, yeah.) His mother was a strong Catholic and the daughter of Irish immigrants. His dad was Japanese, but converted from Shinto to Catholicism when he married. Will still considers himself Catholic, but isn't sure where he stands faith-wise; I mean, he's a vampire. He's afraid his eternal soul has been corrupted.

EDIT: Also out of Thanks. Drat.


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## Trick (Mar 25, 2015)

As an Irish (descent) Catholic who strictly attends the Traditional Latin Mass (FSSP, in union with Rome, in case The Catholic Crow is wondering ) I was very excited to chime in until I saw that The Catholic Crow had covered many basics and even some more obscure things. 

The only thing I can add, really, is that if you have specific questions about Irish Catholics, Cafeteria Catholics of Irish Descent or other cultural/faith things relating to the Irish and Catholicism; I may be able to help. I have been to Ireland, am pretty versed in my people's culture and am a devout Catholic with many "kinda" Catholic relatives, both from the Eastern and Western U.S.


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## Devor (Mar 25, 2015)

TheCatholicCrow said:


> AND saint statues and crucifixes EVERYWHERE in every room of the house, on kitchen aprons, on key chains, dangling from the rear view mirror. EVERYWHERE.
> In my family we're all named after saints as well. Really- its a pretty big thing.



I didn't mention some things because they were "issues" for me as a Protestant, so I figured Tom might be more hesitant with them.

But this ^ - I literally did a jaw drop when I read this because of how completely I had forgotten about the crucifixes and saints names, but more so to realize how thoroughly I've embraced it.  My wife was raised Catholic, but I'm the one who pushed for Saints names for the kids and randomly came home with a wall-thing of the Holy Family.

I mean, a man's got to represent.  *double chest thump*


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## Chessie (Mar 25, 2015)

psychotick said:


> Also I think there's one thing missing from this thread - the understanding that most people aren't their faith first. They're people first, just like everyone else. Some of them follow and devoutly believe in particular faiths. Some don't. But my though would be to first write your MC as a man, then see how following a particular faith however loosely, flavours his character and his life.


I'm not Catholic (non-denom Christian) but every Catholic I've ever met has been supremely devout. If a person is following God's will, then faith comes first and that changes everything about someone: praying, reading the Bible, confessing their sins on a weekly basis, definitely the crucifixes and statues of Saints. Imo, if you're writing about a man of faith then writing him as just a man with beliefs after would be a mistake because to the religious/spiritual person, God comes first. 

I dated a man once who was Catholic and his parents had Mary pictures everywhere, even above the kitchen sink and in the bathrooms.


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## Tom (Mar 25, 2015)

@Devor: I'm definitely a little hesitant with icons and related things, because of my denomination. I'm not afraid to include them, though, if it strengthens the religious thread of the story. 

The trappings of Catholicism are completely foreign to me--the first time I visited a Catholic friend's house, I was overwhelmed by the sheer amount of rosaries they have! My friend was definitely giving me the side-eye after about the fifth time I'd paused to examine a rosary in greater detail. Madonna statues are fairly common in front lawns around here, and I'm totally used to those, but most other Catholic items are a novelty for me.


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## Devor (Mar 25, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> @Mytho, Devor,
> 
> My wife can top you on the conversion thing. From Taoist to Catholic at some point in her early teens. She went to a Catholic school (in Hong Kong) and thought it made more sense than the religion of her family. So did her siblings, apparently, as her sister is a Baptist and her brother is a Buddhist. My wife (the youngest of the three) got her parents to convert to Catholic.
> 
> I was always Catholic, and when I met my wife ten years ago, she took me to a Taoist funeral. She thought it would weird me out, but I was fascinated, in fact. I said my prayers in silence and didn't make the sign of the cross. Being Catholic, I have no qualms about making the sign of the cross publicly, like if I'm praying before eating at a restaurant. But at a funeral for non-Catholics, I can pray without moving my hands.



That's pretty awesome.  I've read a lot about Taoism, but it was all academic.  I don't really have a good understanding of what it's like to even walk into a Taoist temple.

Maybe I'm biased, but some of the most fascinating people I've ever met were converts to a religion; I think it speaks volumes about the level of soul searching that many of us go through.


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## Ireth (Mar 25, 2015)

This is a fascinating discussion. I've had some Catholic and ex-Catholic characters in roleplays, and dealing with their faith or lack of it is interesting. The first character in question, a lycanthrope named Jason, was raised Catholic, but was excommunicated after coming out as gay when he was sixteen. For a few years afterward he still clung to the beliefs for the most part, especially the Commandments, though he didn't bother confessing his sins anymore. His father Casper, on the other hand, continues to be a very devout Catholic. When Jason came out, Casper was extremely opposed, and is the one who pushed for the excommunication. But he mellowed out after a few years, and even came to accept Jason's boyfriend (who is bisexual and also an ex-Catholic, interestingly enough) as dang near family. It helped that they both saved each other's lives a time or two, too. When Jason accidentally turned Casper into a lycanthrope, Casper initially struggled with reconciling his faith and the supernatural nature of his disease. Then he met a vampire who had been Catholic too, but after hundreds of years he became more of a conservative Lutheran, taking up the habit of confessing his sins directly to God rather than a priest. That was an interesting conversation to play out.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Mar 25, 2015)

What might be interesting for your character is if he went to Catholic school. I know people who would put the statue of Mary in the school's attic window and then backlight her so it looked like a ghost. To this day students share an urban myth that the school is haunted because of that. And the stories of the nuns I hear from my Dad's side of the family are always fun. It really is fascinating to hear these stories.


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## Tom (Mar 25, 2015)

Ireth said:


> This is a fascinating discussion. I've had some Catholic and ex-Catholic characters in roleplays, and dealing with their faith or lack of it is interesting. The first character in question, a lycanthrope named Jason, was raised Catholic, but was excommunicated after coming out as gay when he was sixteen. For a few years afterward he still clung to the beliefs for the most part, especially the Commandments, though he didn't bother confessing his sins anymore. His father Casper, on the other hand, continues to be a very devout Catholic. When Jason came out, Casper was extremely opposed, and is the one who pushed for the excommunication. But he mellowed out after a few years, and even came to accept Jason's boyfriend (who is bisexual and also an ex-Catholic, interestingly enough) as dang near family. It helped that they both saved each other's lives a time or two, too. When Jason accidentally turned Casper into a lycanthrope, Casper initially struggled with reconciling his faith and the supernatural nature of his disease. Then he met a vampire who had been Catholic too, but after hundreds of years he became more of a conservative Lutheran, taking up the habit of confessing his sins directly to God rather than a priest. That was an interesting conversation to play out.



I actually decided to do something like that--one of the vampires in Will's clan, his secondary and closest friend, is Lutheran. They enjoy debating their beliefs, and have this back-and-forth argument routine established as sort of an in-joke. I also have some Lutherans in my family (I'm German, after all) and I feel comfortable writing about Lutheranism. I've tried to keep these exchanges light-hearted but also recognizable as legitimate theological debates, maintaining a respectful attitude toward both denominations.

You know, this thread has made me realize just how _Catholic_ life in Western New York is. We have the famous Friday night fish fry--no meat on Fridays for Catholics. Catholic schools everywhere--during middle school, all but two of my friends attended the local Catholic school. Even Protestants are less strict about alcohol around here--Catholic attitudes rubbing off on us, perhaps?


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## TheCatholicCrow (Mar 26, 2015)

Trick said:


> strictly attends the Traditional Latin Mass (FSSP, in union with Rome, in case The Catholic Crow is wondering



That's wonderful- one of my little brothers is an FSSP Seminarian  the only FSSP parish I've been to is St Ann's in San Diego and it was breathtaking. 

About the obscure points ... yeah ... I majored in Religious Studies and run a Catholic community site. I saw the thread and just couldn't help myself.


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## Trick (Mar 26, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> Even Protestants are less strict about alcohol around here--Catholic attitudes rubbing off on us, perhaps?



Though Catholics are known to drink, especially Irish Catholics, there is a basic rule about such things. All things not intrinsically sinful are allowed in moderation. For instance, it is not a considered a sin to smoke but one should exercise self control. It just so happens that drinking has sort of pushed to the forefront of things Catholics are known for. A favorite saying of many Catholics I know, including myself, when confronted by a Protestant who believes drinking is wrong or at least generally frowned upon, is 'Jesus Himself drank wine.' Honestly, it's usually used to defend over-drinking as opposed to drinking in moderation (I've been guilty of that for sure)


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## KC Trae Becker (Mar 26, 2015)

Chesterama said:


> ... every Catholic I've ever met has been supremely devout.



I'm a homeschooling Catholic that was baptized Catholic but my immediate family didn't practice beyond baptisms, weddings and funerals, and was raised mostly faithless. I choose protestantism as a teen of my own accord and had a conversion experience in a Methodist church. Then I went to an Anabaptist Christian college and participated in street witnessing, leading Christian kids camps, teen youth organizations and leading alter calls in homeless shelters. 

At college I met and I married a man who was also baptized Catholic and received First Holy Communion then his parents left Catholicism to become Nondenominational Charismatic. He became a Biblical Studies major. We both converted to Brethren In Christ. He preached several sermons and we lead a community youth program while living in housing provided by the church.

My husband was exposed to Catholic authors and priests in his bible classes (that usually gets a laugh from people familiar with the stereotypes of the two halves of Church) and lead us both to convert back to Catholicism. I have taught at a Catholic school, in CCD and been a Eucharistic minister. My husband has guest lectured classes back at our college helping to bridge the gap between the two halves of the Church which mostly involved explaining certain Catholic beliefs and practices to Protestations but there were some Catholics in the class that were very appreciative of smoothing hackles. Some of the few Catholics there even learned about their own faith through the lectures.

I am raising my kids Catholic even though my husband has now become atheist and mostly identifies with Buddhism. My children and I still are faithful attenders of mass and religious education. I have friends and family members all over the spectrum and have had more religious discussions than I care to remember. Though my experience is mostly limited to the U.S., I've found that there are all types of religious ideas and commitment levels in every religion. 

You could have your character believe just about anything you want and make it believable. Do the research to help make it believable, but don't stress about making it authentic. There is probably someone out there that believes or practices just about anyway you'd like to portray your character. Just be respectful.


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## Mythopoet (Mar 26, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> Oops, I probably should have specified more details about my character/setting. Well, the setting is modern, and mostly revolves around the major cities in Western/Central New York--Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse...Buffalo is a very big center for American Catholicism, having been inundated by Irish, Italian, and Polish immigrants during the early 1900s. You're guaranteed to find a Catholic church on pretty much every street. Rochester, not as much, and Syracuse I'm not sure about.



Cool, I live in an area south of there that isn't quite as Catholic, but we've got a lot of Italian immigrants so there is still a pretty big Catholic presence. Though interestingly, it wasn't a Catholic from my own area I married, but an Irish Catholic from NYC that I dragged up here.  I was non-denom/Evangelical when we met and married and it was our heated debates that led me to convert. Though to be fair it was meeting me and learning about my faith that spurred him on to rediscover his own somewhat lapsed faith at the time. So I made him a better Catholic and then he converted me. lol



Tom Nimenai said:


> My character, Will, is a Japanese-Irish vampire. (Weird, yeah.) His mother was a strong Catholic and the daughter of Irish immigrants. His dad was Japanese, but converted from Shinto to Catholicism when he married. Will still considers himself Catholic, but isn't sure where he stands faith-wise; I mean, he's a vampire. He's afraid his eternal soul has been corrupted.
> 
> EDIT: Also out of Thanks. Drat.



Is he committing sins because he's a vampire? Is he killing people or turning them into vampires or drinking their blood against their will? If not, he shouldn't have anything to fear. Unless he is using his power for evil, his soul should be fine and the Catholic Church would not reject him.



Ireth said:


> This is a fascinating discussion. I've had some Catholic and ex-Catholic characters in roleplays, and dealing with their faith or lack of it is interesting. The first character in question, a lycanthrope named Jason, was raised Catholic, but was excommunicated after coming out as gay when he was sixteen. For a few years afterward he still clung to the beliefs for the most part, especially the Commandments, though he didn't bother confessing his sins anymore. His father Casper, on the other hand, continues to be a very devout Catholic. When Jason came out, Casper was extremely opposed, and is the one who pushed for the excommunication. But he mellowed out after a few years, and even came to accept Jason's boyfriend (who is bisexual and also an ex-Catholic, interestingly enough) as dang near family. It helped that they both saved each other's lives a time or two, too. When Jason accidentally turned Casper into a lycanthrope, Casper initially struggled with reconciling his faith and the supernatural nature of his disease. Then he met a vampire who had been Catholic too, but after hundreds of years he became more of a conservative Lutheran, taking up the habit of confessing his sins directly to God rather than a priest. That was an interesting conversation to play out.



One of the things that bothers me in portrayals of the Catholic Church is how many people seem to think excommunications are a go to method of showing the Church's disapproval. This is not so. Excommunication is the Church's very last resort for trying to get a person to turn away from a life of sin that the Church believes will damn them. It's a lot like the parent who has tried everything else to get their child to turn away from a dangerous lifestyle and none of it has worked. So as a last resort, to try to get the child to see the gravity of their actions, the parent says, "If that is your choice, then you are no child of mine anymore. You are no longer welcome in my house."

The Church would not excommunicate someone just for coming out as gay. Not even at the parent's behest and certainly not when he was only 16. That a devout Catholic would request such a thing for his teenager is just not something I would find believable. That the Church would actually do it is impossible.


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## Tom (Mar 26, 2015)

Mythopoet said:


> Is he committing sins because he's a vampire? Is he killing people or turning them into vampires or drinking their blood against their will? If not, he shouldn't have anything to fear. Unless he is using his power for evil, his soul should be fine and the Catholic Church would not reject him.



The thing is, he actually _does_ drink human blood--I didn't want to go the "vegetarian vampire" route because I felt that a vampire that absolutely _has_ to drink human blood to survive is a more interesting story to write. He tries not to kill or turn his victims, but sometimes it doesn't always work out. That's a big source of internal conflict in the story. I wanted to write about him struggling to keep his faith, while also knowing that he's committing a grave sin that he can't stop committing.


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## Ireth (Mar 26, 2015)

Mythopoet said:


> One of the things that bothers me in portrayals of the Catholic Church is how many people seem to think excommunications are a go to method of showing the Church's disapproval. This is not so. Excommunication is the Church's very last resort for trying to get a person to turn away from a life of sin that the Church believes will damn them. It's a lot like the parent who has tried everything else to get their child to turn away from a dangerous lifestyle and none of it has worked. So as a last resort, to try to get the child to see the gravity of their actions, the parent says, "If that is your choice, then you are no child of mine anymore. You are no longer welcome in my house."
> 
> The Church would not excommunicate someone just for coming out as gay. Not even at the parent's behest and certainly not when he was only 16. That a devout Catholic would request such a thing for his teenager is just not something I would find believable. That the Church would actually do it is impossible.



Thanks for clearing things up, Tom. I wasn't aware of all that.


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## Mythopoet (Mar 26, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> The thing is, he actually _does_ drink human blood--I didn't want to go the "vegetarian vampire" route because I felt that a vampire that absolutely _has_ to drink human blood to survive is a more interesting story to write. He tries not to kill or turn his victims, but sometimes it doesn't always work out. That's a big source of internal conflict in the story. I wanted to write about him struggling to keep his faith, while also knowing that he's committing a grave sin that he can't stop committing.



Hmmm.... the fact that his survival depends on it (if there really are no other alternatives for him) may be enough to mitigate it as a sin.


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## Devor (Mar 26, 2015)

Trick said:


> A favorite saying of many Catholics I know, including myself, when confronted by a Protestant who believes drinking is wrong or at least generally frowned upon, is 'Jesus Himself drank wine.' Honestly, it's usually used to defend over-drinking as opposed to drinking in moderation (I've been guilty of that for sure)



Jesus not only drank, but he turned water into wine at a wedding where everyone there was already drunk.  That's temperance for you!

^ That's another thing.  Word choice can be another Catholic thing sometimes.  For instance, Catholics are more likely to use words like "temperance" instead of "moderation," or "that seems unjust" instead of "unfair," or "charity" where others might use "compassion."  "That doesn't seem very prudent."  "Show a little fortitude."  It's a shout-out to the seven virtues:  Faith, Hope, Charity, Temperance, Justice, Prudence, and Fortitude.  Honestly, they're often better words anyways.


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## Trick (Mar 26, 2015)

Mythopoet said:


> Cool, I live in an area south of there that isn't quite as Catholic, but we've got a lot of Italian immigrants so there is still a pretty big Catholic presence. Though interestingly, it wasn't a Catholic from my own area I married, but an Irish Catholic from NYC that I dragged up here.  I was non-denom/Evangelical when we met and married and it was our heated debates that led me to convert. Though to be fair it was meeting me and learning about my faith that spurred him on to rediscover his own somewhat lapsed faith at the time. So I made him a better Catholic and then he converted me. lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Mythopoet is dead-on here but there is a worthwhile point to mention. There is something called Ipso Facto Excommunication that results from particular sins. The Catholic Crow may have mentioned it by it's formal name, Latae sententiae excommunication. No formal decision must be made, the sin itself causes immediate excommunication. There are a list of sins that cause this, many of which only apply to priests and bishops, but apostasy, a public denouncement or disaffiliation of ones faith is probably the most common among lay Catholics. Basically if a Catholic says, "Catholicism is wrong and I am not longer Catholic." they are actually correct simply by the act of saying it.




Mythopoet said:


> Hmmm.... the fact that his survival depends on it (if there really are no other alternatives for him) may be enough to mitigate it as a sin.



Very true, though is intention does not matter as much as his action. He may try not to kill or turn but when he does he would still need to confess it if he wants to be a Catholic in good standing. The only other thing that stood out to me is this: if you want him seen as a faithful Catholic he either needs a very good excuse for regularly missing Mass or he needs to go. Many Catholics seem foggy on this point but it is a grave sin to miss Sunday Mass without a very good reason. I would suggest you use something related to his 'disease' because grave illness is such a reason. Perhaps he can only attend night Masses?




Devor said:


> Jesus not only drank, but he turned water into wine at a wedding where everyone there was already drunk.  That's temperance for you!
> 
> ^ That's another thing.  Word choice can be another Catholic thing sometimes.  For instance, Catholics are more likely to use words like "temperance" instead of "moderation," or "that seems unjust" instead of "unfair," or "charity" where others might use "compassion."  "That doesn't seem very prudent."  "Show a little fortitude."  It's a shout-out to the seven virtues:  Faith, Hope, Charity, Temperance, Justice, Prudence, and Fortitude.  Honestly, they're often better words anyways.



So true! We do love our wedding celebrations too! (and the alcohol there).

It's funny you should say that. I used 'moderation' because I was talking to some non-Catholics. Had I been talking to all Catholics I would have definitely said 'temperance.' I feel like non-Catholics often misinterpret our usage of that word.


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## TheCatholicCrow (Mar 27, 2015)

Trick said:


> Perhaps he can only attend night Masses?


 Midnight Mass it is! 


It has been years since I last read them but I think that Catholicism came into play in Ann Rice's _Interview with a Vampire_. It depends on how you define vampire. Are you using the modern depiction (using it like a disease or blood addiction) or are you using it as a demonic figure (similar to Romanian _strigoi_)? If you're using it as the first then there is really no reason why the character would be prevented from going (or at least making an effort) but if its the latter it might make more sense that demons cannot enter the House of God or that his flesh burns in the presence of the Tabernacle...  

You might consider adding a scene early on (when he transforms) where he decides to go to and find comfort in the church. When he enters the Church and blesses himself with Holy Water he might find that it burns/blisters his flesh. Perhaps he screams in pain and a nun / priest comes to his aid (asking if he's okay or needs prayer) ... perhaps in their hands is a rosary and when they reach out to touch him it burns him as well. He might even have a family heirloom rosary or scapular or crucifix necklace which he has worn since childhood and now finds that the Holy object burns him as well. 

What a beautiful and agonizing scene this could be- his desire to connect to God but inability to do so. It would not read as Theologically accurate since (according to Christianity) anyone who wants to connect God should be free and able to do so ... but in terms of stacking the cards against your character this would definitely provide a hindrance. 

Perhaps later on he would be able to counter his ... erm ... disabilities by keeping the crucifix in a glass vial (so it doesn't touch his skin), as it was previously suggested, night masses, Confession (probably by appointment since normal hours are usually in the day), counting prayers with stones or using his fingers and things like that ... perhaps even using a stick to flip the pages of his Bible if he's unable to touch the pages. 

You could even include a priest character (maybe a family friend or his pastor since childhood) who keeps trying to get him to come back to the Church and abandon his sin/habit of drinking blood ("the only blood you need to drink is the Blood of Christ") ... you can draw attention to his inner turmoil between his desire for spiritual peace and to be in the Church, his guilt over his sins, and of course the desire to drink blood/kill.


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