# Words That You Avoid



## Laurence (Aug 16, 2018)

In school, my teachers always discouraged the words 'but', 'big', 'good' and 'said'. I know now that those teachers were just reading from a lame book and that shorter, less descriptive words are often great as they don't draw attention to the writing.

Are there any words that 9/10 times you'll attempt to cut or swap out for a synonym?


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## Svrtnsse (Aug 16, 2018)

I think that the reason that teachers say that you should avoid certain words is that they're teaching writing to kids that have a wide range of attitudes toward the written word.

A lot of people will write in just the same way that they talk - more or less - and it ends up with a lot of repetitions that get annoying to read. I believe that the advice comes mainly from that. 

That said...
I usually try to avoid including the word _that_ unless it's needed. In the sentences above I did the opposite in order to try and illustrate the point. 

Overall, I usually try to avoid words I feel aren't needed, and it's become part of my voice as a writer. That doesn't mean it's wrong in any way to include certain words. There may be such a thing as overuse though.


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## Devor (Aug 16, 2018)

Words that I'd eliminate 9/10?  Not really.  I use said between 1/3 and 1/2 of my dialogue tags, depending on what else is happening in the scene, which is less than what many people advocate.  Svrt is right about "that" being a word that some people use as mental filler, but it's also, of course, a common word that you need.  There are other words like this, and many writers have words that help prod their writing process a bit but need to be cut later.  I would say maybe _suddenly_ is the closest I can think of to that 9/10 ratio for some people... but only if you're using it for that mental writing push.

I used to use _quietude_ excessively in my D&D days as a setting prompt (_the quietude of the forest around you...)_, to the point where one of my players was shocked to see it elsewhere because he didn't think it was a real word.

To be blunt, though, as a general philosophy, I would suggest forgetting about the what-not-to-dos and focusing on affirmative rules.  _How can I add to the clarity, flow, emotion, momentum...._

If your writing skill is a ladder that you're climbing, look up, not down.


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## Mythopoet (Aug 16, 2018)

Moist. *shudder* Such a tinny sort of word.


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## Devor (Aug 16, 2018)

Mythopoet said:


> Moist. *shudder* Such a tinny sort of word.



Start looking out for this in your mail box....


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## Vaporo (Aug 16, 2018)

Mythopoet said:


> Moist. *shudder* Such a tinny sort of word.


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## Laurence (Aug 16, 2018)

Svrtnsse said:


> I think that the reason that teachers say that you should avoid certain words is that they're teaching writing to kids that have a wide range of attitudes toward the written word.
> 
> A lot of people will write in just the same way that they talk - more or less - and it ends up with a lot of repetitions that get annoying to read. I believe that the advice comes mainly from that.
> 
> ...



'That' is probably the only word that I seek out myself too (not necessarily always removing but good to keep track of). Constantly editing down sentences feels like it's creating my voice also and sometimes my weakness.



Devor said:


> Words that I'd eliminate 9/10?  Not really.  I use said between 1/3 and 1/2 of my dialogue tags, depending on what else is happening in the scene, which is less than what many people advocate.  Svrt is right about "that" being a word that some people use as mental filler, but it's also, of course, a common word that you need.  There are other words like this, and many writers have words that help prod their writing process a bit but need to be cut later.  I would say maybe _suddenly_ is the closest I can think of to that 9/10 ratio for some people... but only if you're using it for that mental writing push.
> 
> I used to use _quietude_ excessively in my D&D days as a setting prompt (_the quietude of the forest around you...)_, to the point where one of my players was shocked to see it elsewhere because he didn't think it was a real word.
> 
> ...



For me, suddenly goes in the same pot as many short time adverbs. Trying to get across a short period of time by making a sentence longer...no sense.

That's a lovely philosophy, but what if you must take something away to add to the clarity? Stop using so many em dashes to add to the flow?


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## Devor (Aug 16, 2018)

Vaporo said:


>



Don't forget the ending!


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## Devor (Aug 16, 2018)

Laurence said:


> That's a lovely philosophy, but what if you must take something away to add to the clarity? Stop using so many em dashes to add to the flow?



Well, it's not wrong, but... in a real scene you've got more than one thing you need to balance.  You've got to be clear, _and_ you've got to set the scene, _and_ you want to convey the character's voice, _and_ you want to set up whatever action might be happening.  You're not going to succeed if you're focused on the what-not-to-dos. But if you focus on being clear, building the flow, setting up the momentum, and whatever else, you'll be making those little cuts and never even thinking about it, because you'll be focused on the underlying concepts that actually matter.


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## Heliotrope (Aug 16, 2018)

I try to stay away from swearing. I find it cheap. Too many authors think that using the F word a billion times somehow makes their character more funny or more hard core or whatever. I avoid that, for myself.


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## Heliotrope (Aug 16, 2018)

Laurence said:


> In school, my teachers always discouraged the words 'but', 'big', 'good' and 'said'. I know now that those teachers were just reading from a lame book and that shorter, less descriptive words are often great as they don't draw attention to the writing.



I am a teacher, and Svrt is correct. The issue is that we see kids writing stories the same way they talk (which in this age of 100 word tweets is VERY pathetic). We are trying to teach them to express themselves in different sorts of ways. Stretch their boundaries a little bit. That is the point of school. If a graffiti artist goes to art school, he is going to be forced to learn water colours, and oil painting, and portraits. They aren't going to just let him spray paint every assignment. The point of the school is to learn new techniques and develop a wide range of skills. 

We didn't just read some "lame book". After ten, twenty, thirty years in the profession you start to see the same lazy words used over and over and over again.


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## Vaporo (Aug 16, 2018)

Well, I think the issue here is that teachers tend to couch such advice in absolutes. NEVER use "said" as a dialogue tag. NEVER use words descriptive words like "big" or "good." NEVER use adverbs. Or, even if you say something like "AVOID the use of 'that,'" the student often receives no further context and takes the advice as an absolute anyways. I've heard people say that they followed this sort of advice to a T all the way through high school and into college before realizing how silly it is. A writer should never outright forbid themselves from using potentially useful tools.

I doubt anyone else here is going to get this, but there's a bit of a parallel with the use of "GOTO" lines in computer programming. Students are told "NEVER use GOTO," since inexperienced programmers will often overuse it to the point of their code becoming unreadable. However, even after they gain more experience, programmers still arbitrarily forbid themselves from using GOTO because it's "bad practice."


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## Devor (Aug 16, 2018)

This goes towards the idea that there are stages to your writing skill, and that you need to follow different advice at different levels.... the advice that's given to high schoolers isn't the advice that'll make you a professional writer, nor is it supposed to be.  The problem comes in when these rules become baggage that we carry far longer than we're supposed to.

At some point in your writing - why not this point, if you haven't already? - you need to focus on developing your own voice, so these old rules go out the window, and instead you can do whatever you want, so long as you're clear, and it flows, and your prose delivers on the elements of your scene...


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## Chessie2 (Aug 16, 2018)

No curse words. That's about it.


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## skip.knox (Aug 16, 2018)

Then there's the advice from Mark Twain, to the effect that every time you are tempted to use the word "very" you should substitute "damn".  Your editor will then remove every instance. It won't work today, alas, so you'll just have to remove "very" on your own.


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## Laurence (Aug 16, 2018)

Heliotrope said:


> I am a teacher, and Svrt is correct. The issue is that we see kids writing stories the same way they talk (which in this age of 100 word tweets is VERY pathetic). We are trying to teach them to express themselves in different sorts of ways. Stretch their boundaries a little bit. That is the point of school. If a graffiti artist goes to art school, he is going to be forced to learn water colours, and oil painting, and portraits. They aren't going to just let him spray paint every assignment. The point of the school is to learn new techniques and develop a wide range of skills.
> 
> We didn't just read some "lame book". After ten, twenty, thirty years in the profession you start to see the same lazy words used over and over and over again.



You are of course right! Sorry, I let my own loathing of the English school syllabus slip out. I adore and respect teachers now that I'm an adult.

There is something about books and podcasts not using swear words that I respect but then I do question the logic of replacing them with made up swear words - it just makes it more apparent to me that swear words are just words and should be taken more lightly. I guess it can be more immersive...


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## Devor (Aug 16, 2018)

skip.knox said:


> Then there's the advice from Mark Twain, to the effect that every time you are tempted to use the word "very" you should substitute "damn".  Your editor will then remove every instance. It won't work today, alas, so you'll just have to remove "very" on your own.



I actually use "damn" a lot in my Ladybug fanfiction, so...


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## FifthView (Aug 16, 2018)

OK, here's one I never thought about until Demesnedenoir started posting here, but now I can't help notice in things I'm reading:

Directionals.

Perhaps most readers wouldn't notice, at least consciously, those unneeded words. I do.

_He looked up at the sky._  (Do you need to mention that the sky is "up"?)

_She sat down on the bench._  (Why not just, "She sat on the bench?")

_He stepped out through the door._ ("He stepped through the door.")

Those directionals seem to be used just before prepositions. Hmmm.

For me, they break the flow, throw me out of the story, heh. (Does "out" carry a metaphorical sense, here, and pass muster? ) I don't know to what degree this is because D corrupted me, but I suspect these things might even affect the casual reader, even if the reader is better able to gloss over them in reading the story.


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## Svrtnsse (Aug 16, 2018)

FifthView said:


> Directionals.


I see the logic in this, but I'm not sure I feel it. 
I have a hunch it's the kind of thing that once seen, can't be unseen. You don't think about it until someone else points it out, and then you can't help but notice it everywhere. 

I have a feeling I use these directionals a lot, but I can't quite say for sure. It's not something I've though about, until now...


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## FifthView (Aug 16, 2018)

Svrtnsse said:


> You don't think about it until someone else points it out, and then you can't help but notice it everywhere.



Possibly. I never thought about it much before D pointed it out on MS; now I notice all the time. It might also be an issue of dialect, less noticeable for those who tend to use these a lot in everyday speech. "To sit down" might be the verb for some, rather than simply "to sit." Every time someone sits, they _sit down_. Heh. Dunno. I try to avoid these now in my own writing.


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## FifthView (Aug 16, 2018)

Come to think of it...those directionals sometimes feel to me to be breaking POV.

If you have an intimate, close third person, that character's idea of sky automatically includes "up." They are practically synonymous. So if you say, "He looked up at the sky," then it's like a narrator outside the character characterizing the movement of the head, as if viewed from outside. He looked up (we are meant to see the movement of his head, from outside) at the sky (now this is what he sees after that head movement.)

Am I making too much of this? I don't think so.

Also come to think of it, a lot of other, better verbs could be used, and the sentence revised. He scanned the sky. He turned his attention to the sky. He studied the sky.

Anywho.


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## A. E. Lowan (Aug 16, 2018)

There really aren't too many words we'll skip (if you're in the States you know which one doesn't get used). They're all in the toolbox and they all have their place. Though I do agree that some words are stronger in certain applications than others, and it's always better to strive for the stronger word.

Funny thing about swearing, we have one character who doesn't use words stronger than "blast" and another who is responsible for _Faerie Rising_ having 51 instances of the word f*ck. We swear in three different languages. I totally get not wanting to swear, and that absolutely has its place, but writing urban fantasy it's rather hard to avoid. It just naturally goes with the rougher setting.


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## Heliotrope (Aug 16, 2018)

FifthView said:


> OK, here's one I never thought about until Demesnedenoir started posting here, but now I can't help notice in things I'm reading:
> 
> Directionals.
> 
> ...



Oh man, this is so the truth!!!! Dem has cleaned up my writing so much. I DO think that editing the garbage out DOES make for a more readable draft. It is more clear, concise, and direct. Not to mention when you are trying to stick to a word count it is a great way to free up more space for words that actually matter. 

And as much as people love to defend adverbs, for me it is a sure sign that I'm sleepwalking through my writing. When I search "ly" and try to change them out it ends up much fresher and more interesting.


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## Heliotrope (Aug 16, 2018)

FifthView said:


> Come to think of it...those directionals sometimes feel to me to be breaking POV.
> 
> If you have an intimate, close third person, that character's idea of sky automatically includes "up." They are practically synonymous. So if you say, "He looked up at the sky," then it's like a narrator outside the character characterizing the movement of the head, as if viewed from outside. He looked up (we are meant to see the movement of his head, from outside) at the sky (now this is what he sees after that head movement.)
> 
> ...



Ahhhhhhh! Yes! This! I think it depends on how you are writing the POV, but if you are writing in first or close third these sorts of sentences are a sure sign that you are too far away from your character.

He looked up at the sky. He scanned the sky. He turned his attention to the sky. He studied the sky... all those, IMO are pointless and a sign of lazy writing. If you are in a deep POV all you have to do is describe the sky. The reader doesn't need to know he looked at the sky. If he is describing the sky than he is obviously looking at it.

_Mary's eyes were bright with tears and John knew he should be giving her his full attention, but the way the stars shot across the sky, sometimes five or more at time, gleaming green and purple and blue and leaving ten ton trails of space dust, he just couldn't give her what she wanted. 

"Your always distracted." She whispered. "It's like you don't see me at all." 

It was the first time, in John's experience, that she had ever been right. 
_
If you are awake during your writing, and in deep POV you don't need to tell the reader that "John looked up"... in ANY variation of the sentence. You just show what he is looking at and the reader figures it out for themselves.


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## FifthView (Aug 16, 2018)

Heliotrope said:


> Ahhhhhhh! Yes! This! I think it depends on how you are writing the POV, but if you are writing in first or close third these sorts of sentences are a sure sign that you are too far away from your character.
> 
> He looked up at the sky. He scanned the sky. He turned his attention to the sky. He studied the sky... all those, IMO are pointless and a sign of lazy writing. If you are in a deep POV all you have to do is describe the sky. The reader doesn't need to know he looked at the sky. If he is describing the sky than he is obviously looking at it.
> 
> ...



I agree, but I also think there are various levels of closeness, so some of those sentences would not be out of order in those and still be better than "looked up at," in a less-close POV.

I was just thinking of "She sat down on the floor."

What about, instead, "She plopped to the floor and crossed her legs."

The weird thing about third person is that, no matter how close it is, there's still a narrator describing things. I think the most general advice would be to avoid making the narration too overt—unless you are doing an omniscient storyteller. What level of obviousness will depend.

*Edit: *Incidentally, by the above post I'm just trying to get out of the fact that you caught me!  My initial "examples" are sometimes written too hastily.


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## Chessie2 (Aug 16, 2018)

A. E. Lowan said:


> There really aren't too many words we'll skip (if you're in the States you know which one doesn't get used). They're all in the toolbox and they all have their place. Though I do agree that some words are stronger in certain applications than others, and it's always better to strive for the stronger word.
> 
> Funny thing about swearing, we have one character who doesn't use words stronger than "blast" and another who is responsible for _Faerie Rising_ having 51 instances of the word f*ck. We swear in three different languages. I totally get not wanting to swear, and that absolutely has its place, but writing urban fantasy it's rather hard to avoid. It just naturally goes with the rougher setting.


Good point. What words you avoid depend on genre. I do use crap although I don't necessarily consider it a curse word. But the others have no place in historical romance (because my books aren't gritty, they are sweetly toned). I also need to be careful with my language and in the way things are said so they don't sound too modern yet too old either. What's great fun is looking up old words and phrases for the specific time period the stories are in. Some of those are a hoot.


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## Heliotrope (Aug 16, 2018)

FifthView said:


> I agree, but I also think there are various levels of closeness, so some of those sentences would not be out of order in those and still be better than "looked up at," in a less-close POV.
> 
> I was just thinking of "She sat down on the floor."
> 
> ...



This is why, it depends. lol. I think if it is the POV character you are writing from, and she is describing her friend coming over, then sure she might say,

"Sophie bounded through the door, plopped to the floor, and crossed her legs."

But if it was the POV character describing HER OWN actions, I don't think you would use it. The POV would be much deeper.

"I scanned for a seat. The only thing left was a lumpy cushion that someone had pushed off the sofa. It beckoned me from it's lonely corner and I found, once seated, that it was more user friendly than it looked."

Do you see how the POV character doesn't need to say she plopped down anywhere? Does it matter? It matters when describing an outside character.... sure. You can say she plopped, she slid, she lowered herself gently, and they all mean different things. But with the POV character I think it is lazy.

*Edit: But I would take out the "that".... lol. Then it would be more concise. I often sleepwalk through early drafts, then go back and fix it all later.


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## FifthView (Aug 16, 2018)

Heliotrope said:


> This is why, it depends. lol. I think if it is the POV character you are writing from, and she is describing her friend coming over, then sure she might say,
> 
> "Sophie bounded through the door, plopped to the floor, and crossed her legs."
> 
> ...



Helio, I think we've long established our habitual differences, heh. You do the most intimate POV far better than I, and almost all my third person has more distance, even if not, strictly speaking, an omniscient approach.

She plopped to the floor and crossed her legs. What was he thinking? As usual, he'd launched into a long explanation of _Avengers: Infinity War_, and she didn't have the strength to stand through it. A loose sequin beckoned from her sneakers.​As usual, here's a hasty example that might not pass muster, heh. But are we now discussing _Avengers: Infinity War_ when the discussion was supposed to be _Words We Avoid_? Heh.


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## Heliotrope (Aug 16, 2018)

FifthView said:


> Helio, I think we've long established our habitual differences, heh. You do the most intimate POV far better than I, and almost all my third person has more distance, even if not, strictly speaking, an omniscient approach.
> 
> She plopped to the floor and crossed her legs. What was he thinking? As usual, he'd launched into a long explanation of _Avengers: Infinity War_, and she didn't have the strength to stand through it. A loose sequin beckoned from her sneakers.​As usual, here's a hasty example that might not pass muster, heh. But are we now discussing _Avengers: Infinity War_ when the discussion was supposed to be _Words We Avoid_? Heh.



Too true. Too true. This is why it always _depends. _Lol.

Sorry Laurence!

PS: Laurence, nice to have you here  You have started some very fun discussions lately.


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## Laurence (Aug 16, 2018)

Sickos!

Fortunately for me, Mythic Scribes was the very first step in my writing journey so ruthless Demesnedenoir editing is the only editing I know.


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## FifthView (Aug 16, 2018)

Laurence said:


> Sickos!
> 
> Fortunately for me, Mythic Scribes was the very first step in my writing journey so ruthless Demesnedenoir editing is the only editing I know.




It seems Demesnedenoir has become something of a demigod prowling these parts, on the lookout for -ly, that, and directional usage. Beware!


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 16, 2018)

That -ly down yonder needs to painfully die.



FifthView said:


> It seems Demesnedenoir has become something of a demigod prowling these parts, on the lookout for -ly, that, and directional usage. Beware!


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## Nimue (Aug 16, 2018)

Obligatory counter-point time...



Heliotrope said:


> And as much as people love to defend adverbs, for me it is a sure sign that I'm sleepwalking through my writing. When I search "ly" and try to change them out it ends up much fresher and more interesting.


Huh.  When I use an adverb, it's often because I'm trying to say something very specific, that there _is_ no other word for.  I know because I've tried to replace them, and haven't found it productive.  Like any other intensifying tool, it needs to be used sparingly.  And I totally believe that there's types of bad writing that overuse them, but every adverb every writer puts on the page needs to die? Nah.



Heliotrope said:


> "I scanned for a seat. The only thing left was a lumpy cushion that someone had pushed off the sofa.* It beckoned me from it's lonely corner and I found, once seated, that it was more user friendly than it looked.*"


Maybe this is the fault of hastily-written examples, as it perennially is when we talk about style, but is that honestly better than:


> "All the seats were taken, so *I thumped down* on a cushion someone had pushed off the sofa."


Like said-replacements, that's just dancing around saying something simple and intelligible.  Is it really such a problem to let in that the POV character has corporeal form and isn't just a bundle of nerve-endings through which the reader peers?

I don't know.  Of course I agree with bad-habit avoidance on some level, but I feel like this is going too far.  Pick up your favorite book and skim through - chances are, there will be "said" and 'that" and "had" and "was" and characters will look and feel and do things.  I could go on at length, but I just don't think this is the first or last thing you should be thinking of while writing.  I'm at a point, wrestling with my prose, where I value clarity more than anything else - cleverness, poetry, original bloody sentence structure.  What matters is conveying the image.  Words have rhythm as well as meaning--it's not a matter of adding up words like scrabble tiles, where punchy ones count a lot and "had" counts for zilch.  The reader needs auxiliary words and directionals and yes, a little repetition sometimes for the prose to flow unimpeded.

Perhaps this is one of those things that burns brighter once you've edited something to the bitter end.  In the meantime, it feels like something that halts rather than helps.


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## Heliotrope (Aug 16, 2018)

Nimue said:


> Obligatory counter-point time...
> 
> 
> Huh.  When I use an adverb, it's often because I'm trying to say something very specific, that there _is_ no other word for.  I know because I've tried to replace them, and haven't found it productive.  Like any other intensifying tool, it needs to be used sparingly.  And I totally believe that there's types of bad writing that overuse them, but every adverb every writer puts on the page needs to die? Nah.
> ...



Of course all this is true, and it is a matter of style, but when a manuscript becomes a long list of:
He saw
He felt
He tasted
He heard
He thumped
He drove
He walked
He knocked
He sat

It a sign that something should be fixed. When I see it, I change it. I do prefer my sample better because it shows so much more than simply thumping down. And yes, I do beleive characters are a bundle of nerve endings, because characters are people, and people are a bundle of nerve endings. When I’m at a party I don’t walk over to chair and consciously note my “thumping” into it. I notice the texture of the fabric. If it is comfortable or not. When I am writing my characters I’m trying to write them as true as I can get to real people, and most people I know are not thinking about their “thumping” into chairs.... unless it is done on purpose, I guess, to prove something.

Even if I was telling a friend a story I wouldn’t use it. Try to say, out loud to someone,

“So I thumped onto the cushion.” Does it sound right? Or does it sound sort of hokey? In real life, wouldn’t you say something like,

“The cushions at Marta’s are super gross because she lets her cats all over them and they haven’t been washed in a thousand years, but it was actually surprisingly comfortable.”

I write how I imagine real people actually talk, or would actually tell a story.


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## Devor (Aug 16, 2018)

I like directionals.  I don't think there's anything about them that's out of POV.  I don't think they impede flow - if anything they help maintain the flow if there's a lot of distinct actions in a scene.

I don't hunt down adverbs.  If the sentence looks right to me and I don't even notice the adverb as reading wrong, then what would be the point of changing it?  For the sake of it I searched "ly" in a scene of my Ladybug fanfic.... not counting dialogue, there's seven adverbs in a 1,000 word scene. I wouldn't change any of them.  Take a look:

_She *accidentally *bit her lip trying to picture the look on Chloe’s face when she finds out.

“I have to hurt him, Tikki,” Marinette began *slowly*. Inside her all of that happy energy, that romantic enthusiasm for her date with Adrien, began to turn against her.

“All of my doubts are coming from me. I’m the one behaving *poorly* here. I push him away, and I keep him at a distance. I act like I don’t trust him. When I do. I trust him *completely*.”

It was nice to see a bit of emotion from Tikki, who was *usually *calm with her wiseness.

“Yes Alya, I’m ready for that assignment!” she said as *loudly *as she could into her phone while she walked past her parents going through invoices at the table. At the display counter behind them, Tikki was *quietly *sobbing and gasping, crying from a plate of macaroons.
_
Every one of these adverbs adds to the sentence. It seems... wrong, to me, to demonize adverbs because some people don't know how to use them.

Finally, I don't think there's anything distancing about plopping on a couch that works against the character's POV.  I plop on my couch or bed all the time - I have four children and my summer life is one of perpetual exhaustion.


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## skip.knox (Aug 16, 2018)

I can testify that with directionals, excessive adverbiage (oh, but it should be a word), and the others mentioned in this thread, a professional editor will flag them every time and you're paying for that. So it's in your interest to be aware of them and to do the fixing before the paying rather than after.

Of course, if you're not hiring an editor, you can let it all slide.


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## skip.knox (Aug 16, 2018)

WRT adverbs, I recommend reading _From Here to Eternity_. The author (James Jones) uses them more than any other I've seen. I swear there is one line along the lines of "... he said, adverbially."  It's a serious book so I'm not really sure what he was about there, but boy howdy you can't help but notice.


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## Nimue (Aug 16, 2018)

Helio, I'm writing medieval fantasy.  Everything would sound hokey if I said it out loud

I could argue about the merits of just _saying_ "I sat" instead of detailing the decision to sit and the feeling of sitting and the result of sitting without actually saying you sat down but... It's like showing and telling.  Yes, show.  Yes, tell.  If you showed every little nerve-nuance for fifty sentences straight, it'd be exhausting.  If you told everything straight-up for fifty sentences, it'd be dull as hell.  Either example could work, in context.  Somehow you have to convey both meaning and texture.


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## FifthView (Aug 16, 2018)

Nimue said:


> I could argue about the merits of just _saying_ "I sat" instead of detailing the decision to sit and the feeling of sitting and the result of sitting without actually saying you sat down.



Well is it "I sat" or "I sat down"...?

All of this does bring up the subject of how word choice, especially habitual word choice, can affect a style and a voice, regardless.

My original point was not that saying "I sat" or "She sat" is particularly bad, but only that we don't need the "down." And even then, perhaps only when "down" is followed by another preposition phrase like "on the bench."

I did veer a little later into the notion that different verbs may be even better, but this is because I feel that the added "down" (or, "up" if looking at the sky) is often added to make the action seem a bit more vibrant or descriptive, or to give it some emphasis maybe. But in that case, a different verb might do the trick even better.


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## Nimue (Aug 16, 2018)

FifthView said:


> Well is it "I sat" or "I sat down"...?


Well, it's "sat" for brevity when I introduce the concept, and "sat down" for emphasis at the end of the line.


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 16, 2018)

Much of -ly adverb use will depend on TA. The younger the audience, the more tolerable they’ll be. The more genre, the more tolerable. If you want my daughter to read the book, you can pile them on. If you want me to read the book, kill them. Not all of them, mind you. Just most. To me, adverbs are often softening modifiers, not intensifiers. They’re vague.

Nimue thinks every one adds to the sentence, I disagree. “Accidentally” is the only one I would consider leaving, outside dialogue, but I doubt I would. “Accidentally” means something specific and valuable. The others? Not so much.

Dialogue is free game. And again the caveat, it works for this fan fic.

For the most part, the only useful bit for -ly words (IMO) is when a point needs made but that point isn’t important enough to spend more words on. Which is most useful in younger TAs. They are quickie work. In Ladybug/Cat Noir fan fic, sure, what the hell. You want major lit prizes, not so much.


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 16, 2018)

Directionals... here’s the thing. Directionals are fine! If you use them within reason. I have critiqued short pieces of writing which will use 10 directionals in 100 words, and most of them are just pointless. You’ve got a couple here and there? Good. Many times, the use of directionals will also point to a lack of descriptive prowess. But again, TA matters here too.

That... I once critiqued a piece where the word constituted a full on 7% of the words they used. The writer had no idea. Those thats sounded right, and they weren’t wrong, but over half were flat out a waste of space. Cleaning those out tightened the prose with minimal effort.


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## Heliotrope (Aug 16, 2018)

Nimue said:


> Helio, I'm writing medieval fantasy.  Everything would sound hokey if I said it out loud
> 
> I could argue about the merits of just _saying_ "I sat" instead of detailing the decision to sit and the feeling of sitting and the result of sitting without actually saying you sat down but... It's like showing and telling.  Yes, show.  Yes, tell.  If you showed every little nerve-nuance for fifty sentences straight, it'd be exhausting.  If you told everything straight-up for fifty sentences, it'd be dull as hell.  Either example could work, in context.  Somehow you have to convey both meaning and texture.



Lol! You can write medieval fantasy without sounding hokey. 

I’m not saying lose all verbs. We need verbs. But if you are going to pair a verb with a following description, why do you need both? Cut the verb. Keep the description. If you are describing stars, the reader knows you are looking at the sky. If you are describing a cushion, the reader knows you sat. You don’t need to say “I plopped onto the cushion. It was soft and luxurious.” You can simply say “The cushion felt amazing under my tired legs.” Then you have 8 words, instead of 10, and they mean a lot more than “I plopped” as far as characterization, and setting. 

 I’m saying, in those circumstances keep the description, lose the verb. Cut two sentences into one more powerful one.


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## Nimue (Aug 16, 2018)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Nimue thinks every one adds to the sentence, I disagree. “Accidentally” is the only one I would consider leaving, outside dialogue, but I doubt I would. “Accidentally” means something specific and valuable. The others? Not so much.


The example was Devor's, not mine - not sure if that's clear.

Intensifying may not be the right word - modifying, certainly.  Adding detail when there's no verb that brings it, and it's not worth spending a phrase on.  I can add an example from my own writing (short story, somewhat presentable but unedited so this is the level of adverbiage coming out of my drafting - 28 ly words out of 4,463, some of those in dialogue):



> “I made promises to your da, and some I didn’t keep, but this one I will.  That if he could no longer take care of you, I would.”  She unrolled the blanket around the bundle: there was bread in it, cheese, a waterskin, five pale apples.  Something else, a pair of boots.  Not his.
> 
> “You shouldn’t have stolen from the village, someone might have shot you,” Corim said dully.
> 
> His mother’s look was inscrutable.  “Maybe.  But they’re all gone.  The animals too.  Not much left.  The survivors went north, by their tracks.  Up valley to the next town.”


If you can think of a substitute for that "said dully" that conveys the same, I'd be genuinely interested in knowing it.  What goes through your mind when you notice the sin of an adverbial dialogue tag in your own writing - or does it not happen?

Here, in the interest of fairness, what I think is a bad use of adverbs from the same story:


> She had his belt in her hands, and as Corim crept closer he saw the belt twist and stretch, moving like a snake, until it was long enough for her to swiftly, violently hogtie him.


Describing something difficult, getting lazy with the writing.  Part of this, too, is working to a word count - an adverb only counts as one!  Wouldn't mind a rewrite of this one either, lol.


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## Devor (Aug 16, 2018)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Much of -ly adverb use will depend on TA. The younger the audience, the more tolerable they’ll be. The more genre, the more tolerable. If you want my daughter to read the book, you can pile them on. If you want me to read the book, kill them. Not all of them, mind you. Just most. To me, adverbs are often softening modifiers, not intensifiers. They’re vague.
> 
> Nimue thinks every one adds to the sentence, I disagree. “Accidentally” is the only one I would consider leaving, outside dialogue, but I doubt I would. “Accidentally” means something specific and valuable. The others? Not so much.
> 
> ...



^^^^  All of this?  Yeah, just... no.

Nimue is great and all, but I believe we're maybe different people?

If anything, younger audiences require simpler and tighter language than adults, is harder to write, and aren't at all "quickie work.".  The idea that anything goes because it's YA is misplaced, and you shouldn't dismiss a genre you're not as familiar with.

Although I don't really write it any differently just because it's fanfiction for a "younger" TA - I posted it as a sample of my own writing, so maybe you should try and realize when your condescending attitude is more personal than you intend it?

You're probably right about an adverb being a "softening modifiers" instead of a so-called "intensifier," but there's plenty of room for softening _even in an intense sentence_, let alone a scene.  Keeping your sentences varied is probably the biggest key to writing top level prose.

I stand by all seven of the adverbs in my example - I think if you think they could be cut, then you're not paying enough attention to the context.

And I don't know about literary prizes, but I'm fairly sure that YA sells pretty well, and that fanfictions can end up with audiences much larger than that of most ebooks.


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## Nimue (Aug 16, 2018)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Directionals... here’s the thing. Directionals are fine! If you use them within reason. I have critiqued short pieces of writing which will use 10 directionals in 100 words, and most of them are just pointless. You’ve got a couple here and there? Good. Many times, the use of directionals will also point to a lack of descriptive prowess. But again, TA matters here too.
> 
> That... I once critiqued a piece where the word constituted a full on 7% of the words they used. The writer had no idea. Those thats sounded right, and they weren’t wrong, but over half were flat out a waste of space. Cleaning those out tightened the prose with minimal effort.



The funny thing is... I'm going to be completely honest with you here, Dem, and I hope this isn't unfair, but it's something that colored my response to this thread.  In all of your critiques and advice-giving posts on this forum, I can't remember you ever saying something besides "cut XYZ words out of your writing."  That, had, adverbs, directionals.  I literally can't recall another insight.  You've written, edited, and published a book, and it looks fantastic!  You must have a hell of a lot to say!  Why is cutting words...it?  Do you feel it's that annoying, or do you believe it's that essential, or both...?


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## Devor (Aug 16, 2018)

Heliotrope said:


> Lol! You can write medieval fantasy without sounding hokey.
> 
> I’m not saying lose all verbs. We need verbs. But if you are going to pair a verb with a following description, why do you need both? Cut the verb. Keep the description. If you are describing stars, the reader knows you are looking at the sky. If you are describing a cushion, the reader knows you sat. You don’t need to say *“I plopped onto the cushion. It was soft and luxurious.”* You can simply say *“The cushion felt amazing under my tired legs.”* Then you have 8 words, instead of 10, and they mean a lot more than “I plopped” as far as characterization, and setting.
> 
> I’m saying, in those circumstances keep the description, lose the verb. Cut two sentences into one more powerful one.



Coming up with good examples on the fly can be frustrating.... it's probably besides your point, but to me, both of these two examples are about equal and together look like one weak paragraph.  Maybe try.....

_She turned to her large and lofty pink couch, and I plopped onto the cushion before she could even bid me sit, the day's journey weighing on my joints. The cushion was soft and luxurious, and after a few seconds I began to feel guilty for the dirt I must have brought to her couch.  But it felt amazing under my tired legs.
_
That's probably another bad example.  Anyways, this is why I try and post from my fanfic for examples, because it's so much different when the examples come from a real piece of writing.  It's like people are arguing from a meta-place that means different things to different people.


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## Tavenor (Aug 17, 2018)

My least favorite word in writing is "clearly." 

Partially, this comes from my day job, where that word is quite frowned upon. If you use it to bolster your own argument, you look like a fool. 

However, in dialogue it can be used to great effect. Here's two examples:

"Clearly, I won that fight." 
The word clearly illustrates an air of arrogance from the speaker. 

But in narrative: _Obi-Wan had gained the high ground. Clearly, he would win the battle. _

"Clearly" adds nothing to that descriptive sentence other than to argue without actually showing a reader why it should be "clear" to them that what you are saying is true. And if you've provided the details as to why what you're saying is true, you don't need to use the word "clearly."

Clearly, you should all agree with me.


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## Chessie2 (Aug 17, 2018)

Nimue said:


> Obligatory counter-point time...
> 
> 
> Huh.  When I use an adverb, it's often because I'm trying to say something very specific, that there _is_ no other word for.  I know because I've tried to replace them, and haven't found it productive.  Like any other intensifying tool, it needs to be used sparingly.  And I totally believe that there's types of bad writing that overuse them, but every adverb every writer puts on the page needs to die? Nah.
> ...


I love you. 

I enjoy using adverbs. Des: come at me bro.
_Jewel angrily tossed the canteen strap over her shoulder.
Jack whistled mockingly. “Lighten up. It’s only a little teasing."
_
EDIT: to add that it's not about the words. It's about the story. Too many writers argue about which words to use and then their stories lack interest and conflict. Is it worth it then?_
_


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## Tom (Aug 17, 2018)

I don't outright avoid specific words, but I try not to use too many Latin-origin words. They're great for some styles of writing, but I've found that they're jarring in mine, because I go for a colloquial tone that's very physically focused. If it sounds weird saying it aloud in casual conversation, I usually won't use it. (There are exceptions, of course.)


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## FifthView (Aug 17, 2018)

Well now, I feel great guilt for having brought Demesnedenoir into the conversation, considering the backlash.

But I've found those cautions—directionals, -ly adverbs, and that—to be helpful. There it is.

This doesn't mean I am in lockstep, or at least not yet.

I just scanned the first 3500 words of my last NaNo project, the roughest of rough drafts, and I found...

*Two instances of that particular directional use I highlighted in my first comment to this thread—I think? *I'm far more on board vis-a-vis those.  Even in this rough that I spat out over the first 15 days of November, I only did it maybe twice, depending on whether "back" is a directional, heh:


_“Yes.” He dutifully glanced back at the book and tapped different lines of numbers with his quill to prove he had._
_He walked back to his table._

The first example is included further down, also, because the sentence includes an -ly adverb.

I didn't catch these in my first scan, because it'd never occurred to me before to search for "back," heh. I was searching for "up" and "down."

The second of these might be revised to "He returned to his table" or some such, and I think it'd be better revised. But the first one? There's a certain emphasis to the whole of what's being said there, his very conscious show of returning his mind to that book in response to something his mother has said. In any case, I'm a bit "meh" and don't particularly feel any sort of clanging alarm bell in this use.

Do other instances of "up" or "down" count in the caution? I'm not sure. If I include those, there are many areas I'd probably consider revising. During NaNo, I caught myself repeating my phrasing far too much but kept charging full steam ahead because I was aiming at word counts. So it seems that if I had a stairway or hill, my MC was always going down or up, heh. I also had a couple cases of _setting a cup down._ These aren't like those instances I previously mentioned, since I don't include "on the table" and such. A character would just set his or her cup _down_. I'd probably take a look at those during revision, but they don't trouble me much except to the degree that I repeated the phrasing.

_*Twenty-one *_*cases of -ly adverb usage. *In only the first two scenes.

While counting, I had to catch myself whenever "only" popped up, because it's sometimes an adjective, heh.

Obviously, while writing, I didn't care too much about -ly usage. Three of those were in dialogue anyway.

The only's...I think I was using those for voice:


_He had been too young to ride with them to war, only just reaching the age when he might have in the last few months._
_The sudden hint of seriousness seemed so out of place coming from her, he could only think to nod._
_His own fury had little to do with the fact that the man had shown only the barest display of respect toward him._

These sentences probably warrant some revision anyway, for other reasons, but I'm not too troubled by my use of "only" here.

Then there are the cases that probably ring alarm bells:


_“Yes.” He dutifully glanced back at the book and tapped different lines of numbers with his quill to prove he had._
_He widened his eyes a little too exaggeratedly and nodded slightly before remembering his own task._
_The man caught sight of him and his escort but watched passively, waiting for them to draw near._
Heh. Especially those first two. But I like dutifully and exaggeratedly. Let me rephrase. I like them _now_. I suspect they might be little darlings. Incidentally, my POV narration verges on omniscient, is rather distant, and I've been thinking of rewriting the whole thing as first person. All this is just to say that the whole POV approach in this rough is....very rough, and I knew it at the time of writing. My best characterization of the POV would be that it's probably omniscient but with a degree of ventriloquizing that verges on intimate third when my focus is on whichever main character is before the camera; but that's being nice to myself.

Finally, there are cases that probably would raise hackles for some in these parts:


_Initially, he threw himself into his lessons, but his lack of improvement bored the sergeant—or so it seemed._
_Actually, he did not want to go chasing after the understeward, but he had set his mind._
_Usually, they spent their time beyond the walls exploring the cliffs that overlooked the bay; sometimes, the king’s wood south of the city._
These almost certainly would be cut. I knew at the time or a bare second or two afterward that "I probably shouldn't have done that," but I did it anyway. Why did I use these? Look at the sentence immediately above this list. _Finally,.... _I do that sort of thing all the time. It's my "voice" here when I comment on MS, and it's my voice when I speak, often enough. I think my fumbled, fumbling narrative voice in that rough draft led to these. My better angel knows I'd need to cut them later.

*X cases of "that." *The last thing I checked in those 3500 words, these were so numerous that I gave up counting. They weren't altogether bad, but after searching through all the -ly words, I was growing bored with the process, heh. Some of the sentences with "that" would need revision, but probably not all. Again, I suspect that my facile approach to POV style in this rough resulted in many of those thats.

*TL;dr: *Had I not frequently encountered the "don't do" or "cut, cut, cut!" advice, I probably would never a) know to look at these things, and b) give much thought to the possibility of revising and improving roughs with an eye on those things. Maybe this is due to the fact that my personality includes the habit of never following advice blindly. Ever. This makes me an unpleasant person to be around for those who expect me to happily let them dictate my mind's approach to reality, heh. So maybe I'm immune to the potential bad effects of "cut, cut, cut!" but am simultaneously more likely to benefit from my reaction to that sort of advice, since I can take it or leave it depending on my ultimate orientation toward it.  Have I actually benefited, though?  TBD.

As a side note, I'd also question whether the describing of approaches, our own theories about our individual approaches, is always well-expressed. Sometimes the doing is easier than the describing of the doing, I mean.  We abridge, summarize, etc., and sometimes I think we don't quite hit the mark, and this can leave many gaps and many opportunities for disagreement. Sometimes disagreement is no doubt warranted; but sometimes maybe disagreement gets in the way of understanding. My two cents.


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## Chessie2 (Aug 17, 2018)

But is it worth it? Really, is it?? At the end of the day when you've hacked and slashed all the improper -ly words, that, this, then, whatever, do you have a compelling story? Do you have interesting characters? Do you have an immersive setting and a captivating hook? Do you have a story that people want to read? Do you have a voice readers will enjoy?


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## FifthView (Aug 17, 2018)

Chessie2 said:


> But is it worth it? Really, is it?? At the end of the day when you've hacked and slashed all the improper -ly words, that, this, then, whatever, do you have a compelling story? Do you have interesting characters? Do you have an immersive setting and a captivating hook? Do you have a story that people want to read? Do you have a voice readers will enjoy?



I look at this question by considering two very different processes.

The writing of the rough/story.

The editing, finalizing part.

If you've already got the story down, whether first rough or third pass, and you like it, that's great! In this case, I'd give advice as absolute as "cut, cut, cut," and it'd be this: *Don't make any revisions following that cut! advice if these revisions would hurt or destroy what you've already accomplished.  *Don't destroy the story in attempting to "make it better" according to the advice given by others.

But the editing, finalizing process can include a look at these things without automatically destroying the story. Do you take this time? This will depend on each author. Generally, I'd say take the time. Maybe, just maybe, the telling of the story can be improved. If only a smidgen. If only in a few places in the prose. But every author has her own goals; and if the time and effort might be too much, and the story is already where you want it, then do whatever you feel is best for your own particular goals, even if that means not bothering to look at these things..


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Aug 17, 2018)

I never use swear words.
"Gotten" has never felt like a real word to me, so I avoid that.


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## Chessie2 (Aug 17, 2018)

FifthView: I agree with your answer. Conversations like this end up being either or when there is everything else in between to discuss. When I edit, I take out unnecessary words the same way I take out other things that are out of place. I don't just go in there and start slashing words because someone sometime said "Don't use adverbs!". I don't think that's what you're saying either. Lately, I've been on this vintage romance novel kick. Books that are fabulously written use every tool in the box. Limiting ourselves as writers and creators also limits our work.


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## Heliotrope (Aug 17, 2018)

Chessie2 said:


> FifthView: I agree with your answer. Conversations like this end up being either or when there is everything else in between to discuss. When I edit, I take out unnecessary words the same way I take out other things that are out of place. I don't just go in there and start slashing words because someone sometime said "Don't use adverbs!". I don't think that's what you're saying either. Lately, I've been on this vintage romance novel kick. Books that are fabulously written use every tool in the box. Limiting ourselves as writers and creators also limits our work.



This is true. I think we are all saying this. I think we have had these discussion enough times to know that none of us are ever talking in absolutes. We are giving options. We are saying "But maybe think about..." Or, "Maybe try this...." Or, "Hey friend, here is a new tool for your toolbox." 

Saying "I tend to avoid adverbs in my writing because *I, personally *find it makes *my* writing stronger." Is not an absolute. It is giving people another option. It is saying "Hey, have you thought about this? It might be something to consider."


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## Devor (Aug 17, 2018)

FifthView said:


> _He had been too young to ride with them to war, only just reaching the age when he might have in the last few months._
> _The sudden hint of seriousness seemed so out of place coming from her, he could only think to nod._
> _His own fury had little to do with the fact that the man had shown only the barest display of respect toward him._
> 
> ...



So of these adverbs, I would say that "dutifully glanced" doesn't work for me, "exaggeratedly" is a weird word to read, and "passively" is already implied.  Initially, Actually, and Usually call attention to themselves in kind of a bad way.  And the top and bottom "only" sentences have problems that might or might not drop the word in question.  He "nodded slightly" is the only adverb here that kind of works for me, but not in a way that's important - I would probably have said something like "He offered a slight nod" or "He nodded a little," but the adverb as is would also be fine.

But for me, looking at these sentences, I would consider the adverbs a red herring.  It's a distraction.  Let's look at just one sentence:

_“Yes.” He dutifully glanced back at the book and tapped different lines of numbers with his quill to prove he had._

Now for a cut:
_
"Yes."  He tapped his quill against different lines of numbers in the book to prove he had.

^ _But this to me still isn't great.

_"Yes."  He tapped his quill against the book, pointing to some of the more relevant numbers.
_
The thing here is, pointing at numbers _doesn't _prove that he had done anything. No matter how it's restructured the sentence here is always going to suffer because it's missing specificity.  _...pointing to the numbers he had previously marked _or_ ...pointing to the larger numbers that showed where the most money had been spent.
_
Right or wrong, focusing on the adverb just doesn't get you very far.


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## Heliotrope (Aug 17, 2018)

Devor said:


> Now for a cut:
> _
> "Yes." He tapped his quill against different lines of numbers in the book to prove he had.
> 
> ...



Ahhhhhhhh! Devor! You hit on EXACTLY what I was trying to say earlier. It is not simply the adverb (or verb) that is the problem. The adverb (or verb), in many cases, is a _symptom _of a bigger problem. If you have a lot of adverbs (or verbs) in the text it does not mean they need to simply be cut. It means you should probably look at _why _you thought you needed them in the first place, and how you could change the _entire sentence _to make it deeper. To make your meaning clearer.


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## FifthView (Aug 17, 2018)

As I said, Devor. Little darlings. But the kinds of edits you made are the sorts of things I'd consider in later passes.



Devor said:


> The thing here is, pointing at numbers _doesn't _prove that he had done anything



This one thing, though. That's kind of the point in the context of that passage. The MC is a teen, and he's (heh, exaggeratedly) putting on a show for his mother. So it's a little ridiculous in the way teens can be ridiculously OTT. He doesn't actually prove anything, but he isn't self-aware enough to know this. [Edit: Also, his mother's attention isn't on him, so the sound cue is his attempt to "prove" to her that he's reexamining his numbers. Since, dang it, she's hardly paying attention to him.]

Nonetheless, those sorts of edits are precisely why doing a search of -ly and the other things is important, and I agree with you on those.

A huge portion of my problem in this first draft is my squishy narrative voice, and I think that if I improved that generally, the direction I'd end up taking in future edits would be more solid.


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## Giovanni (Aug 22, 2018)

Personally I try my best to avoid the word _however_; I do so because of how often I use it. If I were to write without checking my paragraphs every couple of minutes That word would infect the majority of sentence starters.


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## Writer’s_Magic (Aug 22, 2018)

said. ... _Hahaha!_


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## skip.knox (Aug 22, 2018)

Postpositive conjunction! For some reason that little lesson from grad school stuck. However (in its common usage) is a conjuction and so ought not start a sentence. When you spot yourself doing that, move it further into the sentence where it fits grammatically. Chances are, you'll also find you don't need it or you can write the sentence in a different, stronger way.

However that may be, the word can start a sentence when not used as a conjuction. It's one of those silly bits of English word engineering in that it is really two words stuck together. How. Ever.  It can still be separated. It doesn't matter how you ever manage a sentence, there can be opportunities to separate how from ever.

Poor words. We do mistreat them so, don't we?


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## FifthView (Aug 22, 2018)

Given my natural tendency, I probably ought to create a list for myself so when I edit and revise I can do searches on _However_, _Actually_, _Usually_, and so forth!


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## skip.knox (Aug 22, 2018)

FifthView said:


> Given my natural tendency, I probably ought to create a list for myself so when I edit and revise I can do searches on _However_, _Actually_, _Usually_, and so forth!



I've heard that suggestion from editors. There are warning word lists out there you could use as a starter, then edit to your particular style. I keep meaning to do this, but I follow my own advice even less often than Alice followed hers.


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## Chessie2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Honestly, I feel like if I avoided using all the words the experts say to avoid then I'd have a difficult time expressing myself. Everything within moderation.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 22, 2018)

A lot of people are mentioning swearing/obscenity. 

I used to be told a lot that using "bad" language was never necessary and was even "lazy" and showed that i wasn't creative. Well...that just doesn't work for all stories, apparently. It feels icky to try to deliberately censor my characters' dialogue, and that's what I found myself doing. They wanna swear. SO now, swear, they do. 

That said, the swearing in my books is actually pretty sparse?? I just don't feel the need to drop f-bombs every other page. Ruins the effect.


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## Yora (Aug 25, 2018)

Giovanni said:


> Personally I try my best to avoid the word _however_; I do so because of how often I use it. If I were to write without checking my paragraphs every couple of minutes That word would infect the majority of sentence starters.


I think it's a great word I use in writing all the time. But it's a word used in making arguments and explanation done in writing. I can't really see it being used well in fiction. Specifically is another such word. I don't avoid them, but I don't even see places where they could be used.

Words that I avoid are terms for concepts that we take for granted but are actually specific to our culture, while I usually attempt to make the settings feel distinctive non-european. Like Evil. There are so many assumptions that come with the word, many of which I specifically want to be absent from the setting. Talking about terrible and dangerous people and their place in society and history without using the word Evil is actually a bit of work, but I think it's worth it. There's several more, but they don't come to mind right now.

Something that I think only bothers me as a non-native speaker is the use of "a person, that..." You can say "a person, who ...." and who is a word for people and that is a word for things. It always looks wrong.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Aug 25, 2018)

Evil originally meant 'uppity'.


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## skip.knox (Aug 25, 2018)

>Evil originally meant 'uppity'.

I'm not sure where John Ayto gets that from. The word has meant "bad" in one sense or another for a very long time and across Germanic languages. It may be he is emphasizing the "ueber" part, but it may also be that people are quoting him out of context. None of the articles I found did more than reproduce the quote from Ayto, without providing a citation. Just because the root of the word means something like "overstepping accepted limits" doesn't necessarily mean the derived word meant "uppity."  As far back as we see the word used (9thc or so), it means something closer to "bad" or "ill" without the specifically Christian overtones.

Sorry about jumping in there. It's sort of trigger for me when I hear "originally meant" or "really meant".  Words are incredibly complex and malleable, and are used by beings who are even more complex and malleable. The greatest etymologist of them all was Humpty Dumpty. <grin>

What I really ought to say, more politely, is that "uppity" may well have been one connotation, but probably not the only one.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Aug 25, 2018)

Who's John Ayto?

I used my etymological dictionary to find out. It's probably wrong, as you said.


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## TheKillerBs (Aug 25, 2018)

skip.knox said:


> >Evil originally meant 'uppity'.
> 
> I'm not sure where John Ayto gets that from. The word has meant "bad" in one sense or another for a very long time and across Germanic languages. It may be he is emphasizing the "ueber" part, but it may also be that people are quoting him out of context. None of the articles I found did more than reproduce the quote from Ayto, without providing a citation. Just because the root of the word means something like "overstepping accepted limits" doesn't necessarily mean the derived word meant "uppity."  As far back as we see the word used (9thc or so), it means something closer to "bad" or "ill" without the specifically Christian overtones.
> 
> ...


I don't know either. From the etymologies I've seen, evil's denotation of badness comes all the way from Proto-Indo-European.


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## skip.knox (Aug 25, 2018)

I didn't quite say it was wrong, only that there was more to it than "uppity." 

Ayto is a lexicographer. He gets cited on a couple of sites, but without specific attribution. He's the only one I've found who uses that rather specific word, so I suspect these websites are quoting from one of his books. It's a pity they don't cite the source, as I'd like to be able to see his argument.


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## Tom (Aug 26, 2018)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> I never use swear words.


I don't use swearing in narrative unless it's an integral part of the viewpoint character's voice. When I'm writing dialogue, however, especially modern colloquial dialogue...let's just say that my inner college student comes out on the page.


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## pmmg (Sep 16, 2022)

I used to have a list of words I avoided, but its been a long time since I tried to put them down in writing. Some have become so stricken, they don't come up for me anymore. But my list still includes:

1) Now--Not only is this one often a crutch word for many authors, words like this seem almost to break the fourth wall for me. Of course its is not really 'Now', my story is in the past. Nothing is now. And now of course drifts on by so fast, its not 'now' anymore when the next action strikes. For me, only in dialog.

2) Suddenly--I can find a better way to show something happening..er...suddenly..

3) Seeming, or seemed--I think its just stronger to say it is or it isn't. I use sparingly.

4) Started or began--I tend to cut these in editing. One does not start to walk, they just are walking or are not.

5) (And I'll second Fifth from 2018, and try to remove directionals as space wasters).

6) Most dialog tags that are not 'said' or descriptors after them, such as 'she said breathlessly'. (And dialog tags too where I can).

7) Looked--if I find it is coming up too much. They looked, she looked...blah blah. Sometimes I just break it up.

8) Light--which is to say, I become aware when the light is mentioned too much. The light of the lantern lit the room with light.

9) Along those lines, any word that repeats too often, too close together.  Bob kicked the door and the door opened. <--door just glares at me as needing to be cut.

10) Double words-- She had had the plates removed. <--I would would just rephrase that.

11) I have recently started to be more critical of 'ed' words, and seeing if they can be 'ing' words instead. 'ing' being more active.

12) As a personal rule, I try not to start any story with the word 'The', and usually not any scenes either.

13) Weird words when a plain word is more common and understandable. He thrust forward with his spetum, versus, He thrust forward with his spear.

14) Words the POV character would not know. Such as 'It was lemon yellow' when there are no lemons in their part of the world.

15) Words that could not be in the world. Such as Shanghaied in a world without a Shanghai.

16) Most 'ly' words for the same reasons everyone else avoids them.

17) Most words that have certainty to them, such as 'It was ten feet away'. An exact measurement is not likely to be known, so I would use other references.

18 ) Most words that are an RPG term--like gold pieces.

19) Words that refer to the Earth, or heavenly bodies, as my story is not on Earth, and it just ads confusion to jumble it.

20) In forum threads, I avoid 'Depends'. Cause that is secretly the answer to every question.

21) And Damnit...I try to avoid swear words as well, but that is just stylistically me. No other strong reason.


I am sure there are others, just not coming to mind at the moment. Maybe if I think of them.

(Yeah, I know...necroed another...or could I make that Nercoing...)


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## pmmg (Sep 16, 2022)

On the reverse, things I look to include when possible:

The taste and smell of things, cause it is so often not the focus and adds to the immersion.

Opportunities for world building...cause in my story...the character's don't care, and so a lot of it gets left out.

How characters react to events. It no good to have someone die without showing how it affected someone else.

I try to show how characters feel without overtly stating it. Sam turned red and screamed vs Sam was mad.

Things that add to the grittiness of the world. Like mud and wet things, and blood and pain.

Opportunities to make something stronger, and often with fewer words.

Things that add to the cultural immersion of the story. Such as Kopins instead of copper pieces (if I may borrow from Groo the Wanderer).

Things that are asking questions in the reader or the characters.

Things that seem to fit in life's minor annoyances...such as none of the armor in the armory is an exact fit.

Things that indicate how something could be, such as farms around the city. Farms have to be somewhere.

Things that add meaning, to the story, to the characters, and the reader too if I can.

Words that are actions.

Things that can be left to be inferred.


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## buyjupiter (Sep 20, 2022)

I try to avoid words/phrases like:

-just 
-about to 
-started 
-began 
-had to have/had to be/passive voice constructions 

All of these get in the way of my action verbs, deadening them and lessening their impact. And I usually have good action verbs!

I am adverb prone so I do try to examine how heavily I use them in a piece and cut them down if I use too many in a row...it's the poet in me I'm sure.


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