# Help describing a surcoat



## SeverinR (Jul 22, 2011)

I asked this on a general creative writing sight, and didn't get good suggestions other then 
"He wore a blue and white surcoat with swords on each side ofhis chest."

The man wears a blue and white surcoat quartered with alternating colors, with an opposing colored sword emblem on the upper quarters and on his shoulders are three redlines parallel to his neck. 

Does this make since and can you picture what I am describing?

If you don't understand:
upper half:
blue-.......................white
white sword emblem---blue sword emblem

lower half:
white --blue
Here is a picture:
http://nertea.the3rdage.net/tutorials/langstrand/surcoat2.jpg


Is there a better way to describe it?
This is his heraldry, and the red lines are rank.


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## Thaumicist (Jul 22, 2011)

The way you describe it should depend on who your viewpoint character is.  If it's told from his own viewpoint, he likely won't notice his own heraldry at all, except to compare it with that of others - he does see it every day, after all.

If you're writing from the perspective of a different knight (or your equivalent of a knight, I'm assuming medieval here) or a courtier, they'll say _quartered in alternating colours_ because they know about these things. A trained herald or similar scholar would use specific heraldic language, for example calling white 'silver': they'd be very precise, and might not notice anything else about the man. In either of those contexts, what you described makes perfect sense - I'd say it's better that the first example.

A peasant, however, or anyone else less interested/knowledgeable, might only see him as _the man in blue and white_ or _the one with three stripes_.

Try spreading the description out a bit more rather than throwing it in all at once. Describe the system for showing ranks elsewhere and drop in the guy's rank in passing - maybe another character notices too late that he's a different rank to them. Zoom in gradually: say he's wearing a surcoat at one point, then mention the colours later, and only when he's looking in the mirror/the viewpoint character is talking to him add the part about the swords. Then you can explain the quartering, the opposing colours, his rank and anything else you feel like adding clearly without going into a massive chunk of exposition. Only describe what you need to, and only when the characters have a reason to think about it!

One thing that just occurred to me - if wearing a surcoat is normal, don't say _He wore_ one, just go for _His surcoat was quartered blue and white_. If surcoats aren't normal, fixate on the fact that he's wearing one at all and get to what it looks like later. And if I were you, I'd definitely use the word quartered: most people will understand what you mean, your character certainly would, and it cuts out a lot of unnecessary extra description. Instant world building points! 

Hope I've been helpful.


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## Telcontar (Jul 22, 2011)

Because heraldry is very common is your average fantasy setting, err on the side of less description. So long as your description remains consistant then it isn't that big of a deal if the reader doesn't get the _absolute, precise_ picture that you have in your own head.

I would describe this as simply "Swords upon a quartered blue and white field." You can describe the rank separately, and later.


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## sashamerideth (Jul 22, 2011)

His surcoat was in the colors of the Harnet Knightsand and moved ever so slightly in the breeze. "Hail squire!" he said, removing his sword from his belt. "See the smith puts a good edge on this."

As the lad took the sword belt, he noted the slash that had cut cleanly through the crossing embroidered swords. The proud knight walked as though uninjured. Not wishing to besmirch the knight's honour, he said nothing of the near miss. As he took the sword away, the knight fingered the silver laced thread of the fine embroidered image, and frowned as it unravelled at the slightest pull. He looked around the strange town, hoping to see a lovely young lady or at the very least a sewing wench that could mend the fine cloth. 

Or something like that.


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## sashamerideth (Jul 22, 2011)

Hmm, editing seems to be not working, sorry for the extra post. Don't be afraid to leave things to the imagination of your readers. If you describe every detail, they will have little room to imagine your world. If it is strange, unusual, or needing to be exactly like so, then describe it through the story.  Conversely, not enough and your readers won't have enough to imagine. 

Sometimes colors are important, in this case I do not think they are. The sword emblem is, but describing it in an infodump is bad form.


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## myrddin173 (Jul 22, 2011)

Thaumicist said:


> A trained herald or similar scholar would use specific heraldic language, for example calling white 'silver'



Actually no self-respecting herald would ever call something "silver" they would use argent, likewise they would use azure for blue.

Ofcourse, most readers probably won't know that so using blue and white would be advisable.  I think Telcontar's description works.


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## Donny Bruso (Jul 23, 2011)

While using traditional heraldic terms, like embattled borders, bars sinister, chiefs, chequy, bendy, etc. is great for authenticity sake, it pulls your reader out of the story because most will have to go look up what the hell it means, assuming they care enough about the heraldry to do so. Personally, I keep my kingdom's heraldry very simple. They get a sigil of one color on a field of another color. And while I think most people would probably recognize the terms argent and azure, I tend to go with the more familiar terms for clarity.

As to how to describe the surcoat in text, I'd go with something like this:

'Two men stood stiffly by the side of the road. One of them bore the blue sword of House Slashystab on it's white field upon the left breast of his surcoat, then quartered it with the arms reversed. As John drew closer, the naked fury on the man's face became more apparent, and his voice carried through the ranks of troops as he dressed down another man wearing the simple unadorned chain mail of a commonly born soldier.
"Do you see these?" he demanded, gesturing wildly at the three vertical red stripes on his left shoulder. "They mean that pissants like you don't get to question my orders! Is that in any conceivable way unclear, soldier?"

Most people who are familiar with fantasy will probably understand what a quartered surcoat with reversed arms is. Anyway, hope this helps a bit.

Cheers,
Donny


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## Thaumicist (Jul 23, 2011)

myrddin173 said:


> Actually no self-respecting herald would ever call something "silver" they would use argent, likewise they would use azure for blue.



Oops - thanks for pointing that out, I knew something wasn't right there.


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## myrddin173 (Jul 23, 2011)

No problem,  I just felt happy doing it since I literally learned that piece of information the day before!


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## Map the Dragon (Jul 23, 2011)

My attempt at describing Sir Coat:


Sir Coat was a dashing Knight of the White Emblem. Recently awarded the honor, Sir Coat was still quite young and rather inexperienced in worldy matters. Typical of the hazing one might experience from their more experienced peers, he became the butt of many a joke and the victim of countless pranks at the hands of Brothers of the White Emblem.

An late afternoon that promised ale and a wench or three, instead found one such prank realized. Torn between lass hunting and drinking with his Brothers, Sir Coat chose the later to start his early evening. Little did he know that his tankard of Kimsink spirits had been adulterated with a heavy dose of Squi Sleeping Power, a rather potent an expenise variant of such alchemical wares. 

When he awoke a day later, he found himself completely nude and thus tied hand and foot to a pair of tall cypress trees in the glade. From the wasit up, he had been painted entirely blue...the waist down, the palest white. The colors of the Brotherhood. He struggled against his bonds to no avail. 

He looked around to each side as best he could before allowing himself the grace of tears. "Mother..." he whispered with a quivering bottom lip.



How'd I do? Described Surcoat well enough for you?

Just having fun!


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## SeverinR (Jul 25, 2011)

myrddin173 said:


> Actually no self-respecting herald would ever call something "silver" they would use argent, likewise they would use azure for blue.
> 
> Of course, most readers probably won't know that so using blue and white would be advisable.  I think Telcontar's description works.


 
I studied heraldry for a short period when I was creating mine in the SCA. I know there is a great and wonderous description for even the simplest of designs, but I also know that most people would not understand the proper herald description except for those that studied it. 

I want the reader to know he is a noble(his heraldry) and what his design is, because I will show it in battle, thus telling the people who it is under that helmet.

I do not inform the reader of the rank, because the MC doesn't know the rank system yet either and also rank is not important to the story at that time.


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 29, 2011)

Surcoat also can be confusing, as it has meant different things at different times in European history.....  The picture is a little hard to see well, but maybe tabard might work better.  I don't think it matters really what words you use to describe the garments themselves, just as long as you let the reader know what details are important to the story.  Let's be real, most people don't know a thing about heraldry nor historical garments.  If you want people to envision the exact garment you are describing, you will need to let them know it has no sleeves, is worn over mail, etc.  If however, you don't care what they picture, then you can be more vague.  
I copied this from a post I responded to about describing a character's appearance:
"In one story I mentioned a character convalescing in a linen shirt and knickers..... I assume people know what that would look like, I don't care if they picture the shirt with buttons or ties or a collar or drawstring neck, nor whether they feel knickers are shorts or knee-length... it doesn't matter to the story.. what mattered was that the character was healing and out of commission, and laid up in bed in underwear."
I think the responses above have been really good, hopefully they have provided you with some useful suggestions.


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## SeverinR (Jul 29, 2011)

True, 
most people wouldn't know the difference between tabard, surcoat, tunic, cloak.
I do try to use the right terms for those that do.

Since asking about this writing I have added three other nobles family .  None had to be so specific as the first.
red and white checkered tunic with a lute emblem, Black and white tunic(half and half) with a standing griffon, the other was just a mention of thier family crest not their colors. (Red raven on blue field)
Surcoat; basically a strip of cloth(shoulder width wide) with a hole for the head with a belt or holding it in place with or without side stitching. Tabard, I think, is a little more elaborate.


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