# Reader vs Beta Reader and Preconceived Notions About Nobility



## BWFoster78 (Sep 25, 2012)

One of my beta readers requested that I bring the following question before the board, so to speak.

But first, a quick rant:

The writer/beta reader relationship is a tricky one.  You must have honest feedback on your work even though it may be hard to hear.  On the other hand, if your beta reader is a writer, he's going to be looking at things differently than a reader would.  Finding the balance on when to take advice is difficult.

A reader gets transported into your story (hopefully!).  A beta reader remains outside your story.

A reader accepts what you're showing them.  A beta reader actively looks for plot holes, inconsistencies, and missed details, sometimes to an absurd degree.

Onto the issue at hand (EDIT: Please consider that this is a made up world.  It is not supposed to reflect historical people or places.):

My beta reader feels that my readers will have preconceived notions about nobility based on the titles Duke and Marquess.  While I do not doubt that there will be some preconception involved, I feel that the reader, overall, will give me wide latitude to establish the world within a broad framework.

The two particular issues:

1. I write that the characters stop in a town a short distance from the duchy capital in order to freshen up and appear well heeled at court the next morning.  My beta reader took great exception to this stopping, saying that it made no sense.  I think that I can easily fix his objection by giving backstory on how the custom of stopping developed, but the question still remains:

If I show the characters stopping at this town and mention that this is simply what they do, how much explanation do I really need?  As a reader, would you question this?

2. This example is the more relevant of the two.  I have a situation where I show the marquess (which I'm defining as the daughter of the duke who is in line succeed her father as duchess) having great power to speak for her father.  I'm also showing a situation where she browbeats a minor noble into sending his daughter with the marquess to serve as a lady in waiting.

My beta reader take two great exceptions:

a. He feels that it is GREATLY against expectations for the marquess to be able to issue commands in her father's name.  

b. He feels that is GREATLY against expectations for the noble to send the daughter without a great deal of written assurances and word from the duke himself.

I feel, obviously, that there is quite some degree of variation within fantasy ruling culture and that the reader will allow me to define these kinds of details as I see fit.  As long as I stay consistent in that the daughter has leeway to issue commands on the duke's behalf, I think it's fine.  Same with how the minutia of the lord/noble relationship is handled.

My beta reader wanted me to get further input on this because he thinks it will negatively impact my novel if I don't pay enough attention to these details, so please help!  Do you share his preconceptions?

Thanks!


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## srcroft (Sep 25, 2012)

First,

Its good to have a writer beta but also you need to find betas that are your target audience too.

As for your dilemma, you do not need backstory. Its telling and it treats your reader as stupid. Backstory is good for you to write and keep for yourself. Let the information flow naturally. If the character would go there, make him go there. Allow clues to why, don't tell. If it doesn't have anything to do with the theme and doesn't move the story or conflict forward remove it. You don't write that a character slept 8 hours most of the time lol, we know that happens. Its all about writing the interesting things. I once deleted 4 pages I loved because I could sum it up in 3 lines of tell and move onto the interesting part.

Just because you love your world and find your backstory interesting, shows your passion. The reader wont feel this way.

As far as breaking rules that you mentioned like the sending of orders. It depends. If you are showing 18th century earth, you have to do your research. If somethings off like that it should be explained. If its not important to the story--then you made a mistake and change what happened.

PS also never ever take the advice of one beta as gospel or as insult. Every reader will have insight--not always good either. In the variety of counselors you gain wisdom. 

Focus on the story as a whole and the theme. Issues like this can be fixed in draft 2.


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## Guru Coyote (Sep 25, 2012)

I think what you need to establish early on in the writing is that your world has "it's own tules." Make sure the reader knows that "normal expectations" are likely to be wrong, and show them the rules of your culture/world.

And as you mentioned yourself, make sure You keep your own rules - aka be consistent.

I would take your beta reader's objections as sign-posts of where your culture differs from what might be standard expectation and make sure to establish the differences.

Keeping within the "expected" won't do your novel any good. (only if you write in an established world.) Are you writing "another book of that style", or are you writing something fresh?

Baseline: know the reader's expectations, and then play with them.


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## Aosto (Sep 25, 2012)

> 1. I write that the characters stop in a town a short distance from the duchy capital in order to freshen up and appear well heeled at court the next morning. My beta reader took great exception to this stopping, saying that it made no sense. I think that I can easily fix his objection by giving backstory on how the custom of stopping developed, but the question still remains:


I don't think a lot of backstory is needed. Maybe a passing sentence saying that it is custom, but don't elaborate to much as it will turn the reader off. Backstory may not even be required at all. I for one would just assume it was custom in your world for someone to appear well and clean when addressing the court. 



> 2. This example is the more relevant of the two. I have a situation where I show the marquess (which I'm defining as the daughter of the duke who is in line succeed her father as duchess) having great power to speak for her father. I'm also showing a situation where she browbeats a minor noble into sending his daughter with the marquess to serve as a lady in waiting.


It's your world. Do what you want. That being said, a lot of readers will expect you to elaborate on the titles and what position of power they hold. Overall it's still your story. If you tell me that the Marquees had speaking power in the absence of her father, then I'll believe you. 

In closing. I think your beta reader needs to detach him/herself from real world explanations and take what you offer as the truth in your story. If your truth is presented in a consistent and 'logical' manner, then I would accept it, no matter the situation. 
It seems the beta reader has a preconceived notion about these titles that they are unwilling to let go of. Even if the beta reader is a writer, they must read as a reader. Readers don't pick the story apart nearly as much, but will notice glaring plot holes and mistakes. 
So, avoid saying the Marquees has speaking power and then reprimand her in the future for giving orders when not allowed. And if one must be well and clean in court, make it always so. Don't have a grungy criminal in court at the same time.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 25, 2012)

> As for your dilemma, you do not need backstory. Its telling and it treats your reader as stupid. Backstory is good for you to write and keep for yourself.



As a general rule, I sorta agree with you.  Too much backstory drains the life, tension, and immediacy from a story.  I think that, however, having no backstory at all can make the world flat.  Fantasy readers in particular crave some details.  I don't feel that the occasional anecdote that helps explain the world is a bad thing.  Especially if you use that backstory to further develop conflict and character.  The key, I think, is relevant backstory.



> If you are showing 18th century earth, you have to do your research. If somethings off like that it should be explained.



This is a good point.  I did not explicitely clarify that this is a completely made up world.  I will edit the original post.  Thanks.



> Focus on the story as a whole and the theme. Issues like this can be fixed in draft 2.



I appreciate the advice, but I'm at an appropriate place in my story to consider details such as this.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 25, 2012)

Guru Coyote said:


> I think what you need to establish early on in the writing is that your world has "it's own tules." Make sure the reader knows that "normal expectations" are likely to be wrong, and show them the rules of your culture/world.
> 
> And as you mentioned yourself, make sure You keep your own rules - aka be consistent.
> 
> ...



I appreciate the reply, but what I'm really looking for is: do you have the same preconceived notions as the beta reader?  Thanks.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 25, 2012)

> I for one would just assume it was custom in your world for someone to appear well and clean when addressing the court.



Issue 1 Vote Count:

Brian - 1
Beta Reader - 0



> If you tell me that the Marquees had speaking power in the absence of her father, then I'll believe you.



Issue 2 Vote Count:

Brian - 1
Beta Reader - 0



> In closing. I think your beta reader needs to detach him/herself from real world explanations and take what you offer as the truth in your story. If your truth is presented in a consistent and 'logical' manner, then I would accept it, no matter the situation.
> It seems the beta reader has a preconceived notion about these titles that they are unwilling to let go of. Even if the beta reader is a writer, they must read as a reader. Readers don't pick the story apart nearly as much, but will notice glaring plot holes and mistakes.
> So, avoid saying the Marquees has speaking power and then reprimand her in the future for giving orders when not allowed. And if one must be well and clean in court, make it always so. Don't have a grungy criminal in court at the same time.



Exactly my point.  Thanks!

Also, thanks for taking your time to answer my questions.  I appreciate it!


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## Guru Coyote (Sep 25, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> I appreciate the reply, but what I'm really looking for is: do you have the same preconceived notions as the beta reader?  Thanks.



In regards to the "clean up before court" - that made total sense to me, I would have accepted it as you wrote it.

The "giving orders for her father" - hmmm, I'd think it an interesting difference to the way I'd expect authority to work in a historical setting. Esp. as she is a woman etc. Still, I would have accepted it as the rules of the culture you describe. (This is what I meant by "knowing and playing with expectations".


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 25, 2012)

> In regards to the "clean up before court" - that made total sense to me, I would have accepted it as you wrote it.



Good deal.  Thanks!

Issue 1 Vote Count:

Brian - 2
BR - 0



> The "giving orders for her father" - hmmm, I'd think it an interesting difference to the way I'd expect authority to work in a historical setting. Esp. as she is a woman etc. Still, I would have accepted it as the rules of the culture you describe. (This is what I meant by "knowing and playing with expectations".



I try to be consistent in portraying women as treated more like modern women than they would have been treated in true medieval culture, very similar to WoT in this respect.  

Issue 2 Vote Count:

Brian - 2
BR - 0

Thanks so much for your input!


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## Steerpike (Sep 25, 2012)

I agree with Aosto, so I'm voting Brian +1.

I'll also say that beta readers can do a whole lot more harm than good, and the fact that this particular issue is occupying a lot of your time while you're trying to finish this work is a good example of that. It is particularly true if the beta readers are writers. I don't know if that is the case here, but it starts to look like it because the beta readers is, in essence, wanting to re-write aspects of your story for you.

My personal view is that the writer is generally better left to his own devices until there is a complete "product" in place. Then you get a few people to read it and if there are big, consensus issues that need work, you address them. For comments like these about the stopping in town and the power wielded by the Duke's daughter - I'd probably disregard them, particularly if they came only from one reader, and more particularly if that reader is also a writer. If you're concerned about the Duke's daughter, for example, and the other noble's reaction to the daughter's browbeating, that can probably be remedied with a single sentence while still keeping the elements of the story itself the same. If you have someone trying to rewrite portions of your story in the way they'd write it, that should be a red flag in terms of seeking out their input, particularly at the pre-completion stage.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 25, 2012)

Steerpike,

Thanks for the vote.  On both issues it stands:

Brian - 3
BR - 0



> My personal view is that the writer is generally better left to his own devices until there is a complete "product" in place.



On one hand, I agree with you.  In my situation, however, I'm deep into working on my 2nd draft.  I find that the conversations that I'm having with my beta reader help to solidify my world.  He's brought up a lot of things that have forced me to correct oversights and make my world deeper.

It does take time and effort, but, overall, I think the process has been a net positive.



> For comments like these about the stopping in town and the power wielded by the Duke's daughter - I'd probably disregard them, particularly if they came only from one reader, and more particularly if that reader is also a writer.



I'm in complete agreement with you here.  However, I respect the amount of time and effort that my beta reader has put into evaluating my work.  Upon my telling him that I'm fine with these two aspects of my work as written, he implored me to get more consensus, so I did.



> If you're concerned about the Duke's daughter, for example, and the other noble's reaction to the daughter's browbeating, that can probably be remedied with a single sentence while still keeping the elements of the story itself the same.



That's kind of the thing, though.  Even after him pointing out his opinion, I had absolutely no problem with it as written.  He seemed to think that it was a big deal that the marquess had any authority whatsoever.  It seems to me that I've read a bunch of fantasy where the king/duke/noble's scion was the one on the quest and their birthright gave them quite a lot of say over their father's vassals.  I'm not sure where the comment is coming from.  I figured that, since the two of us have such a disconnect, it can't hurt to get more opinions.



> If you have someone trying to rewrite portions of your story in the way they'd write it, that should be a red flag in terms of seeking out their input, particularly at the pre-completion stage.



I've been bringing that discussion up with him more and more.  The awareness, I hope, is also making me a better beta reader for others.  I'm trying to make sure I focus on what I feel is reasonable rather than what I would want.  I do feel that this particular reader sometimes has a problem making that distinction.

My main problem then becomes that this problem taints the rest of his suggestions.

Anyway, as always, thanks for your comments.

It's nice to find a subject in which we are in agreement.  I'll do my best to fix that soon; I'm thinking about a post: The unified field theorum of writing.  You're going to hate it!


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## Steerpike (Sep 25, 2012)

Brian:

Ah...for some reason I thought you were working through the initial draft. Now that you say it, I realize you've said before that you are on the second draft and (I think) nearing completion in the coming few months.

For the Duke's daughter:

1) You can simply leave it as is, and assume (rightly) that most readers will go with it and understand she wields this authority in the fantasy world;

2) Her acts can be normal for this world, and you can establish that with a simple sentence early on to demonstrate that she has this power and it is normal;

3) Her acts could be unusual, even in your fantasy world, which you can also establish with a simple sentence early on to demonstrate that she wields an unusual level of authority in her father's name.

I don't think a typical reader is going to have a problem with any of those, particularly in a fantasy world where such things aren't meant to be faithful reproductions of history in the real world.

As for field theory, I really hate anything to do with field theory, though I really like James Clerk Maxwell, who I guess used them for his work on electromagnetic waves. I don't suppose Maxwell will fit into your writing field theorem?


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 25, 2012)

For some reason, I don't have the option anymore of editing the original post.

For clarity, my beta reader wants me to point out, for issue 1, that my party is fleeing another group.  

I'm not sure that that description is accurate.  My party was fleeing another group until they reached the safety of the duke's soldiers.  Now, the other, smaller, group is still pursuing them at a discreet distance.  My protagonist feels that the pursuers may still represent a danger, thus the stopping in town creates conflict as he becomes agitated.  The rest of the party feels quite confident that the 100 men and five mages can hold off the catcher's 25 guys and unknown potential number of mages.

If that changes any opinions, let me know.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 25, 2012)

> As for field theory, I really hate anything to do with field theory, though I really like James Clerk Maxwell, who I guess used them for his work on electromagnetic waves. I don't suppose Maxwell will fit into your writing field theorem?



The post really won't have any thing to do with field theory except that I'm trying to tie together the ultimate equation on writing.


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## Steerpike (Sep 25, 2012)

If the question is whether it is plausible or not for your party to stop while they have people pursuing them, under the circumstances you stated, I'd say that the fact you acknowledge it in the story and it forms a source of conflict between the characters is sufficient. You've acknowledge the issue as a writer. There's no longer a problem. The characters decide what they decide, and whether any person things they were smart about it or not isn't really relevant - it's what they did


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## Steerpike (Sep 25, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> The post really won't have any thing to do with field theory except that I'm trying to tie together the ultimate equation on writing.



Ah. Well...you do know that there isn't one? 

The closest you could probably come, which I've seen people attempt with software, would be a formula for writing a certain type and style of novel. For example, you could probably come up with a formula for writing "generic action fantasy novel X" and use that over and over again, changing all of the details but basically writing the same story repeatedly, in different ways. That can be lucrative - look at the Goosebumps books for kids, for example. When my kids were little they loved them, and it didn't take long to note that, with a few exceptions, RL Stine was writing the exact same story over and over again, with a little bit of variation. You could probably model something like that mathematically. You could do the same for novels written for adults, so long as you're OK with the idea that you're basically putting out the same thing over and over.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 25, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> If the question is whether it is plausible or not for your party to stop while they have people pursuing them, under the circumstances you stated, I'd say that the fact you acknowledge it in the story and it forms a source of conflict between the characters is sufficient. You've acknowledge the issue as a writer. There's no longer a problem. The characters decide what they decide, and whether any person things they were smart about it or not isn't really relevant - it's what they did



Exactly my thoughts.

This is really freaking me out being in agreement with you.  Stop it!


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 25, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Ah. Well...you do know that there isn't one?
> 
> The closest you could probably come, which I've seen people attempt with software, would be a formula for writing a certain type and style of novel. For example, you could probably come up with a formula for writing "generic action fantasy novel X" and use that over and over again, changing all of the details but basically writing the same story repeatedly, in different ways. That can be lucrative - look at the Goosebumps books for kids, for example. When my kids were little they loved them, and it didn't take long to note that, with a few exceptions, RL Stine was writing the exact same story over and over again, with a little bit of variation. You could probably model something like that mathematically. You could do the same for novels written for adults, so long as you're OK with the idea that you're basically putting out the same thing over and over.



This is more theoretical and just for the fun of it.

I'm going to duel post on my blog, and my plan is to make it my post for Thursday.  Tomorrow, I'm planning: How Your Beta Reader is Ruining Your WIP!


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## Steerpike (Sep 25, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> Exactly my thoughts.
> 
> This is really freaking me out being in agreement with you.  Stop it!



Heh. Well you still have to get to my next one 

Let me clarify - I don't think there is anything wrong with formulaic fiction. Writers can make a good living at it. Just realize that when you use a formula, your end result will be formulaic (by definition).


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## Steerpike (Sep 25, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> I'm going to duel post on my blog, and my plan is to make it my post for Thursday.  Tomorrow, I'm planning: How Your Beta Reader is Ruining Your WIP!



I'll check your blog tomorrow then!

(man sorry about all the typos in previous messages; I was trying to get ready for work and post at the same time. Clearly not the best approach!)


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## Guru Coyote (Sep 25, 2012)

In regards to the danger of persuit changing any opinions, I agree with what Steerpike said. You addressed it as conflict in the story, and that's good then.

Looking forward to the post on the Unified Field Theory of Writing.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 25, 2012)

Guru Coyote said:


> In regards to the danger of persuit changing any opinions, I agree with what Steerpike said. You addressed it as conflict in the story, and that's good then.
> 
> Looking forward to the post on the Unified Field Theory of Writing.



Glad to hear it.  Thanks again for replying.


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## Penpilot (Sep 25, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> 1. I write that the characters stop in a town a short distance from the duchy capital in order to freshen up and appear well heeled at court the next morning.  My beta reader took great exception to this stopping, saying that it made no sense.  I think that I can easily fix his objection by giving backstory on how the custom of stopping developed, but the question still remains:
> 
> If I show the characters stopping at this town and mention that this is simply what they do, how much explanation do I really need?  As a reader, would you question this?



If as Steerpike said, you address the pursuit, I don't see any problem. Since stopping is a custom, I think it's a perfect spot to drop in a little or a lot of backstory on it, depending on what you think works best. It'll help fill in the frame work of the world in which you're working. If the reader doesn't have that frame work, they're just assuming things cold and what they assume won't always be right. 




BWFoster78 said:


> 2. This example is the more relevant of the two.  I have a situation where I show the marquess (which I'm defining as the daughter of the duke who is in line succeed her father as duchess) having great power to speak for her father.  I'm also showing a situation where she browbeats a minor noble into sending his daughter with the marquess to serve as a lady in waiting.
> 
> My beta reader take two great exceptions:
> 
> ...



Well, this is almost the same question as the first. If you do the ground work and set up and explain the rules of the world so that the daughter has such power then I don't see any problem with it. It's all in the set up. If you get it across to the reader that this is a reasonable way to operate, which IMHO is entirely plausible, then the reader will accept it. 

I'm reading A Game of Thrones right now, and I've never heard of the role of The Kings Hand before. And if I were going by the title alone, I could reasonably assume the person could be a complete lackey or someone with great power, depending on how things are set up.


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## Graylorne (Sep 25, 2012)

If you don't have votes enough... I see no problem in them stopping and sprucing up. Actually, I use the same situation in my first book, have them change into court clothes behind some hedges outside town, because my MC refuses to appear at the court of the local count as some sort of a beggar.

Second, how much authority the daughter of a duke has, is a matter between her and her father. I see no reason why she couldn't give orders as her father's deputy or in her own name. Princes have done these things for centuries and if your world has more equality between the sexes, it's logical this goes for Princesses as well. Even in a power play situation, e.g. father against daughter, it wouldn't be inconceivable. The only detail I want to point out (I am a stickler for correct titles after all) is that Marquess is a male title. The lady is a Marchioness, or if you want to go French, a Marquise.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 25, 2012)

Graylorne said:


> If you don't have votes enough... I see no problem in them stopping and sprucing up. Actually, I use the same situation in my first book, have them change into court clothes behind some hedges outside town, because my MC refuses to appear at the court of the local count as some sort of a beggar.
> 
> Second, how much authority the daughter of a duke has, is a matter between her and her father. I see no reason why she couldn't give orders as her father's deputy or in her own name. Princes have done these things for centuries and if your world has more equality between the sexes, it's logical this goes for Princesses as well. Even in a power play situation, e.g. father against daughter, it wouldn't be inconceivable. The only detail I want to point out (I am a stickler for correct titles after all) is that Marquess is a male title. The lady is a Marchioness, or if you want to go French, a Marquise.



Okay.  I'll do some more research.

Edit: Okay, you're right, but I don't like the term marchioness.  I also don't like going with the French version or referring to a duke's son as a marquess, as it sounds odd.

Hmmm.  I'll have to rethink the title.


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## Graylorne (Sep 25, 2012)

You can ofc use the (older) continental version of Margravine, what is more a medieval title. 
But there are still plenty duke's sons who are marquesses, so it's completely normal even if it sounds a bit odd.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 25, 2012)

Graylorne said:


> You can ofc use the (older) continental version of Margravine, what is more a medieval title.
> But there are still plenty duke's sons who are marquesses, so it's completely normal even if it sounds a bit odd.



I was really looking for a term that specifically meant: son/daughter of the duke/duchess who will inherit rule when said duke/duchess dies.  Marquess appears to be a generic name for a class of noble between a duke and a (?) count.  

I like Jordan's daughter-heir but don't want to steal it.

Any ideas?


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## srcroft (Sep 25, 2012)

I like daughter-heir, sounds unique XD. Hmm, well theirs Heiress, Noble-Heir,  Heiress of Nobility, Noble Successor, Noble-Scion, Fated-Scion, Blood Successor, Blood Heir. Just a few to throw out there.


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## Graylorne (Sep 25, 2012)

Well, officially she'd be heiress-apparent, or else hereditary princess, only that's rather a mouthful.

If your duke is a sovereign ruler, there's no problem with calling her Crown Princess.

You can also make a title for her. In my books is an independent duchy called Vavaun. It's in a Balkanese (is that a word?) style. The duke is the Valvode, his dughter, who is the eldest of triplets, the Valvodjara. Both are variations on the original title of Wojwode. Or like the Romans, with Caesar for the father and Augusta for the daughter (not entirely accurate, but it could serve).


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## srcroft (Sep 25, 2012)

Hmm what about Heiress-to-be, I also like heiress-apparent like you said, it has a nice flow to it. Crown Princess would confuse me, I would think Royal family above Duke/Dutch/Lord/Lady.


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## Butterfly (Sep 25, 2012)

Lady-heir? Duchess apparent?


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## srcroft (Sep 25, 2012)

Ok I definitely got the winner: "The cute girl who will one day take my place, money, and title, but only when I die, and certainly not if she kills me, apparent."


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 25, 2012)

srcroft said:


> Ok I definitely got the winner: "The cute girl who will one day take my place, money, and title, but only when I die, and certainly not if she kills me, apparent."



I like this best so far.  How about the tcgwwodtmpmatbowidacniskma for short?

Edit: that was just in jest, but maybe the "niskma" would work.  I'd laugh every time I used it.


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## srcroft (Sep 25, 2012)

HAHA thats funny. If you use it I want 10%. j/k. Niskma sounds pretty cool for a character or tribe/people name


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 25, 2012)

srcroft said:


> HAHA thats funny. If you use it I want 10%. j/k. Niskma sounds pretty cool for a character or tribe/people name



What would the male version be?  Niskme?


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## srcroft (Sep 25, 2012)

Nihkmo technically but I like Niskmo.


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## J.D. Hallowell (Sep 26, 2012)

Any time you use titles or other technical terms in ways that differ from their ordinary use, you run the risk that your readers will carry their existing knowledge and expectations about these terms into their reading of your story, and the differences will cause problems for believability or ease of immersion in the tale. 

I would say that deviations from the usual use of terms should be noted or explained in some way within the thread of the story so that readers have a grasp of what they should expect to see in _your_ story in relation to the term and understand precisely what _your_ use of the term means.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 26, 2012)

srcroft said:


> Nihkmo technically but I like Niskmo.



I do too.  Done.


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 26, 2012)

J.D. Hallowell said:


> Any time you use titles or other technical terms in ways that differ from their ordinary use, you run the risk that your readers will carry their existing knowledge and expectations about these terms into their reading of your story, and the differences will cause problems for believability or ease of immersion in the tale.
> 
> I would say that deviations from the usual use of terms should be noted or explained in some way within the thread of the story so that readers have a grasp of what they should expect to see in _your_ story in relation to the term and understand precisely what _your_ use of the term means.



JD,

Thanks for the response, but I'm not sure I completely agree with you.

On one hand, yes.  Using a term definitely brings up certain connotations in the reader's mind.  However, I think that the readers keep those expectations pretty maleable when reading fantasy.

In my mind, it's like how I develop a character.  I introduce the protagonist and give some minor details about him: his age, occupation, etc.  I can't keep the reader from projecting some preconceptions based on this information.  However, as I show more and more of his actions, the way that I want him perceived replaces any assumptions they made.

It's woefully bad craft to present the character all at once:  Xan is sixteen and an apothecary apprentice.  He's a bit arrogant but is really lonely and sensitive.  Now, on with the story.  

Instead, I reveal a little at a time, and the reader goes along with me.

Same thing with the functioning of my society.  Regardless of their preconceived notions, my society is defined by the way I show it working.  I don't think that most readers have a problem with it.  I also don't think that the preconceived notions of most readers are as strongly held as those of this particular beta reader.

Thanks again for the comment.


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## Butterfly (Sep 26, 2012)

mmm.... A rose by any other name... is still a rose...

if you get what I mean.


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## srcroft (Sep 26, 2012)

Unless you are pushing the reader into belief of a Realism Fantasy story - e.g. A Knights Tale, historically pretty accurate, but fantasy fairy tale storyline -- its fine. If the author is making a point that its Earth at a certain time, then breaking convention can be jaring. Typically in fantasy theres flexibility, but once established you have to keep consistant.


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