# The makings of a bestseller



## The Unseemly (Jul 9, 2013)

Perhaps such a thread has existed, perhaps it hasn't, but here is a place to discuss what makes/made a work of fantasy a bestseller.

First off, something to keep in mind is that not everybody can write a bestseller. Indeed, you shouldn't aim to write a bestseller, you should aim to write a story, which may become a bestseller if enough people like it. Write because you like writing.

For me, personally, books that become bestsellers are ones that add _something more_ than just a new perspective (which all books add). LotR became a hit because it created a whole new concept of story - it was something that was original. Likewise goes for Game of Thrones: like LotR, it added just that something more, it had just that extra originality. Both analysed the world in a completely new way, and both won't a read-enjoy-putdown-forget type of book.

Alternatively, there also comes the fact that many bestsellers are simply entertaining in a completely new way, much like Harry Potter was. They are simply books which you do not wish to put down, because of a completely original take on their storyline. 

Anyway - people's thoughts?


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## psychotick (Jul 9, 2013)

Hi,

I don't think anyone really knows why one book hits big and others don't. It's like a chemical mix where you mix your work which is hopefully the best it can be, together with a great cover and a good blurb, and then hope it hits the right people at the right time and takes off. There's a lot of luck and timing involved as well as good storytelling and writing.

But rest assured. If I should hit on the right mixture I'll let you know what it is - after my eighth blockbuster!

Cheers, Greg.


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## MFreako (Jul 9, 2013)

I don't think there's a formula. Readers and writers change and evolve all the time. Every now and then a story just clicks with the general population and spreads through it like wildfire. 

All that aside, I'm guessing it has a lot to do with the hype behind the author. You write that one book that gets really noticed,  people read it, recommend it to their family and friends who in turn recommend it to theirs. It goes like that for a while and you've got a yourself a big name, and when that happens, chances are even more people will buy your next book.


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## C Hollis (Jul 9, 2013)

A friend of mine and I have a theory about such things.

Did you know that Lobster was the food of the poor until Rockefeller accidentally ate his servant's lobster stew?

It takes the right person, in the right time, to appreciate what you have.

If there was a formula, we would all write best sellers.


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## Chessie (Jul 9, 2013)

I think we have a bestseller in all of us. Will it happen...??? But as the OP said, its about writing stories. There isn't a way to do it except to continue writing what you love. And have a blast doing it.


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## Spider (Jul 9, 2013)

A while back, I came across a site that offers tips on how to create an "instant" bestseller. While I don't think that's all there is to it, it does have some good advice.

How to Create an Instant Bestselling Novel


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## Penpilot (Jul 9, 2013)

Writing a best seller like trying to predict where lightning will strike. Game of Thrones was first published in 1996 and didn't reach the best seller list until 2011, when the TV show came on air. Then you look at books like Fifty-Shades that started as a Twilight fan fic. 

IMHO the only formula for a best seller is to be in the right place at the right time with the right product.


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## The Unseemly (Jul 9, 2013)

But perhaps there still are some little things that people prefer? I mentioned originality, so I suppose it would have to be original in the right way, in the right time with the right market?


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## Penpilot (Jul 9, 2013)

The Unseemly said:


> But perhaps there still are some little things that people prefer? I mentioned originality, so I suppose it would have to be original in the right way, in the right time with the right market?



Or get a simple plug from Oprah. Google Oprah Effect.


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## Feo Takahari (Jul 9, 2013)

I don't think it's specifically what you write. Rather, there's a talent involved in marketing a product to an audience who'll lap it up, which is separate from the talent involved in actually creating the product. (I see the success of _Fifty Shades_ as a perfect example of this--the author built up a fanatical fanbase around her fanfic, then leveraged it to get her book into the public eye, where it was consumed by people who would have read any BDSM porno but had never previously put themselves in a position to read one. To a lesser extent, something similar happens whenever a really good plot that's time-tested with sci-fi fans is put in a movie that's marketed to people who never watch sci-fi and have no idea it's been done better elsewhere.)


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## Jamber (Jul 9, 2013)

Hi The Unseemly,
there's a film industry marketing term for it, isn't there? 'Same but different.' If you want to get a foot in the marketing door, write what sold last year but vary it a bit. (That's the theory anyway -- I doubt it works without a good dose of luck or, as Feo Takahari says, marketing skill.)

I feel it's a bit like telling someone how to win the lottery. Having a recipe can increase your chances a little, but probably not a lot. Still, I like glancing over what's selling well so I can keep an eye on market directions. I don't write with them in mind -- instead, I often drop a book I'm working on because I can see there's something way too similar just being published. (That's happened way too often.)

Ultimately it makes no sense to write with strict market ideas in mind, because you're as likely to be wrong (or to miss by a whisker) as if you'd simply written what you loved. Moral of the story: write what you love. 

cheers
Jennie


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## A. E. Lowan (Jul 10, 2013)

Of course, the "same but different" is extremely difficult to apply to publishing.  What was hot in publishing last year was actually written 2 - 3 years ago, making writing to trends utterly pointless.  By the time you finish your "trendy" hopeful-best-seller-to-be, the train has not only left the station, it's two counties away.

I think the best we can do is write what we want to read, and hope everyone wants to read it, too.


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## advait98 (Jul 10, 2013)

I think it has a strong dependency on the location or market. 

For example, in India, there is a dearth of good fantasy fiction, or any fantasy fiction really. But there has been a steady increase in interest in fantasy in the country (You have no idea how popular Rick Riordan is). 

Like this one guy, Amish Tripathi, who wrote a mythological fantasy book (I'm 80 pages in and regret ever picking it up), he became an instant bestseller author of a really mediocre trilogy(less than mediocre to me) through some good marketing techniques and endeavours.

Imagine how well a moderately good book might sell in India, if just given a bit of promotion. It would be a plus point if you're Indian as well. 

Personally, I'm not interested in becoming Amish, I want to try my luck outside with good audiences, rather than India, where they went crazy over _Amish's_ books.

Anyway, that's my view on the subject. Think of it what you will.


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## The Unseemly (Jul 10, 2013)

Jamber said:


> Moral of the story: write what you love.





A. E. Lowan said:


> I think the best we can do is write what we want to read, and hope everyone wants to read it, too.



Personally, I think this nicely summarises what everyone has said: there isn't any particular technique, so don't bother trying to write a bestseller, but rather, just do what you enjoy, and write a story. Yes?


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## Nameback (Jul 10, 2013)

advait98 said:


> Personally, I'm not interested in becoming Amish, I want to try my luck outside with good audiences, rather than India, where they went crazy over _Amish's_ books.
> 
> Anyway, that's my view on the subject. Think of it what you will.



Hey, more customers never hurts. 

As to my take on the OP: 

I used to work in politics, doing analytics and data management. I've always been an empirically-minded person, but ever since I entered that world I have become a believer in Big Data. Data is the mind of god--and to collect all relevant data and successfully parse it is to understand that mind and obtain enlightenment. OK, that's a bit melodramatic, but you get my point. Data can answer any question.

So, I believe that there is indeed a formula for a bestseller--but not just its content. Its marketing, its place and time, its target audience, and so forth. I believe this because I believe there is a formula for all human behavior--I've seen it. No one wants to believe that they are externally programmable, and yet behavioral experiments show us so consistently that we are. People respond predictably, consistently.

The problem is in knowing the formula. In politics, those formulae are finally coming to light, but we still know almost nothing. The great triumph of the field has been that in the last 8 years, we actually realized that such formulae exist and can be identified--not that we actually managed to uncover or understand all of them. And in publishing and marketing? They haven't even begun to believe that data can answer their questions. They are still looking for the truth in the mind of an editor or an executive or a marketer--the truth isn't even on their radar.

I say that, then, to say this: there is a formula, and no one knows it yet. And anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong. That formula will only become known by extensive, controlled, scientific experiments conducted over decades. Until then, don't worry about it--just write.


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## The Dark One (Jul 10, 2013)

Beautifully succinct Nameback, but I reckon the science has been (kinda) understood for a long time. It's the basis of all marketing after all.

What I would add is that money can take you a long way down the bestseller path, even with the most pathetic of products. Spend enough money on marketing and production and you'll probably sell plenty of books...you just might not make a huge profit.

The internet says all bets are off though, as far as the old paradigm is concerned, and your science may slowly become more pure if money can have less of a deterministic impact on a book's success.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 10, 2013)

It seems to me that there's a separation between "best sellers" and "mega best sellers."

When we talk about Twilight and Harry Potter, very few books will reach that statosphere.  On the other hand, I've never heard of 99% of James Patterson's books, but they're probably all "best sellers."

Obviously, it's much easier to produce a "best seller" than a "mega best seller."  I'm not sure that the second category is attainable unless you happen to get really, really lucky.  On the other hand, the first category, I have to believe, is within reach if we work hard enough and smart enough.


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## Devor (Jul 10, 2013)

There is a way to guarantee yourself best-seller status.  But it sucks.

Quietly buy the books yourself, get labeled a "bestselling author," and make your profit on the next one.

What did I tell you?

Short of that . . . . there's a few things you can do to help with your target markets.  Most people don't understand targeting.  Typically, you want a high percentage of your niche, but you still want a non-negligible percentage of the mass market.  For as much of a dark niche that Game of Thrones is, GRRM still included a character with mass-market appeal:

Ned Stark.

Without that one character - let's call him a "genre-entry" character - most people would have put down GoT and never have gotten hooked.

That's because your niche has a tiny base rate, but the mass market has a huge one.  20% of a tiny 10-person niche is 2.  But 5% of a 100-person mass market is 5.  The trick for becoming a bestseller is shooting for both of those numbers in one product.  That is, I want a niche product that still has some appeal to the mass market.

*Let the niche fanboys generate the buzz marketing for me, and let that hint of mass market appeal bring in the sales.*  If there's a formula, that's it.

And that's not easy.  Whenever you want "the best of both worlds," things get very complicated on the back end (they _shouldn't_ get complicated for the readers).  If you get even a little lazy, you will probably end up getting the worst of both worlds instead.


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## deilaitha (Jul 10, 2013)

MFreako said:


> I don't think there's a formula. Readers and writers change and evolve all the time. Every now and then a story just clicks with the general population and spreads through it like wildfire.



Publishing companies seem to think that there is a formula.  I think that's why so many cheap knockoffs show up after a big selling phenomenon. Look at all the books that flooded the market after Twilight and Harry Potter.


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## deilaitha (Jul 10, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> When we talk about Twilight and Harry Potter, very few books will reach that statosphere.  On the other hand, I've never heard of 99% of James Patterson's books, but they're probably all "best sellers."



OPINION ALERT

I _hate_ James Patterson!  I haven't even read any of his books but they all reek of PANDERING TO THE MASSES instead of being original.  His kid's series? Witch and Wizard. Middle School. Knockoffs of Harry Potter and Diary of a Wimpy Kid.  He team writes most of them--but why do I get the vibe that he is more or less contributing the name rather than the talent??? His adverts drive me insane. He's a pompous self-promoter and that makes me never want to read his books.  He might be amazing, but I don't care, because his marketing turns me off that much!!!

Best-seller status never indicates anything about the quality of a book.


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## Chessie (Jul 10, 2013)

deilaitha said:


> Best-seller status never indicates anything about the quality of a book.


Agreed. The occasions when I have graced the Best Seller's aisle at the bookstores, I didn't find most of the stories appealing. There's a recent one based off the Rapunzel fairytale (name is escaping me) that looked promising but it was over $20 so I didn't get it (that's way too much for a book that's only going to collect dust anyway). Its all about individual taste. Write what you love, the rewards will come. I just want my books to be loved somehow. I rather have a small, yet devoted, fanbase than try to write for the masses.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 10, 2013)

deilaitha said:


> OPINION ALERT
> 
> I _hate_ James Patterson!  I haven't even read any of his books but they all reek of PANDERING TO THE MASSES instead of being original.  His kid's series? Witch and Wizard. Middle School. Knockoffs of Harry Potter and Diary of a Wimpy Kid.  He team writes most of them--but why do I get the vibe that he is more or less contributing the name rather than the talent??? His adverts drive me insane. He's a pompous self-promoter and that makes me never want to read his books.  He might be amazing, but I don't care, because his marketing turns me off that much!!!
> 
> Best-seller status never indicates anything about the quality of a book.



I've only read one of his, and I didn't care for it at all.  Nonetheless, he's found a market.  If we want to achieve success, we'd do well to study those who have succeeded.


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## Sheilawisz (Jul 10, 2013)

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## Nameback (Jul 10, 2013)

The Dark One said:


> Beautifully succinct Nameback, but I reckon the science has been (kinda) understood for a long time. It's the basis of all marketing after all.



Well, honestly I don't know much about the publishing industry specifically, but if it's anything like politics or film, then their advertisers are some of the least scientific people on the planet. 

I know I'm getting pretty tangential here, but I love talking about this stuff; data as a concept is very threatening to incumbents, and not just in the political sense. Publishers and marketers (and copy-writers and TV ad producers and so on) are not like doctors or lawyers. They don't command high salaries, prestige, and respect because they have a vast library of technical knowledge that takes ten years and $300,000 to obtain. They have those positions because they are considered uniquely possessed of the talent at making decisions in their field of expertise--and expertise is what they are being compensated for. They're being compensated for knowing the right answers, for having a "feel" for what will sell, for having a "philosophy" of how to market something. 

Data threatens all of that. Data says that the right answer isn't an art, isn't intangible, isn't something some people have a gift for and everyone else doesn't. Data is democratic. Data says that once the answer is uncovered, anyone can know it and anyone can act on it. I don't know if you ever saw or read "Moneyball" but it's a great example of this. Stats geeks revolutionized baseball in the early '00s, and human scouts and old-school GMs resisted like crazy because _it threatened their value_. All of a sudden, a scout's unique talent for finding talent isn't so unique when it's all done in an Excel spreadsheet. 

In my own life, I had to deal with these people. Everyone thinks their state/district/city/neighborhood is different, is unique. I can't tell you how many times I heard people tell me: "oh, well mail advertisement might not work where you've been, but people read their mail here." I would get blue in the face reciting the facts and figures of randomized controlled experiments that showed that political direct-mail advertisements had a treatment effect of _zero_, and yet people would still spend money on it. 

One local campaign I advised even spent 80% of their advertising budget on mail, despite my constant and repeated pleas to do otherwise. The senior consultant also happened to run a firm that designs and sends political direct-mail advertisements. You can see how I didn't win that battle.

Very few people want to believe that data has the answers. We all want to believe that we are unique, and if we're paid well for something, we _really_ want to believe that. Data says we aren't. That's what I find beautiful about it--data says we're all fundamentally similar in so many ways, all operating on the same essential substrate of human cognition. And more than that, what can be predicted can be controlled. If we can predict the outcomes of our actions, then we can choose the better course. But that threatens all those who say that _they_ have a monopoly on knowledge, on knowing the better course.


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## The Dark One (Jul 11, 2013)

You _do_ like talking about it, don't you!

In fact, I agree wholeheartedly - my point was that I think this has been understood in a primitive way for a while. I work in education management and use of big data to target and plan action has been around for a long time. Book marketing too, in terms of sales analysis, but as I said - very primitive in comparison with the level you're talking about.


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## deilaitha (Jul 11, 2013)

Sheilawisz said:


> We all are entitled to our opinion, but please, when you refer to your least favorite Authors do not post anything offensive, abusive, defamatory or hateful. Authors sometimes come to visit sites like Mythic Scribes, and we want to keep up our reputation as a High Quality site and community for Fantasy writers.


Thanks for the reminder to keep it classy.  I will remember to be more polite when discussing my opinions.


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