# How strong is your concept?



## Leif Notae (Dec 3, 2012)

The topic provided by Larry Brooks in today's (12/3/12) post about The Secret To a Successful Concept points out something I am seeing a trend in with the questions and critiques. This isn't a bad thing, but this post can help.

So, how far down have you drilled to find your true concept? Is it harder than it looks for you?


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## Feo Takahari (Dec 3, 2012)

All of my current projects deal with conflict between two different models of a situation, either or neither of which may be correct. For instance, a slaveowner seduces a slave, who goes along with it to avoid punishment and get better treatment--is the slaveowner deluding himself when he thinks the slave loves him, or is the slave deluding himself when he thinks he doesn't? In some cases, these conflicts aren't explicitly spelled out in the narrative, but they underly its events in ways that I hope will gradually become obvious.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Dec 3, 2012)

All my stories are very conceptual, in the sense that I define concept as a combination of narrative, themes and style, and try to take them all in account when I formulate a project. I don't consider it very challenging, honestly, but if I don't have a clear concept I don't really have a story. So, for me it's kind of a necessity.


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## ThinkerX (Dec 3, 2012)

Hmmm...

Labyrinth - Arrogant aristocrat and companions venture into an immense labyrinth in search of a family artifact which could put his family on the imperial throne.

Empire - A young noblewoman and her companions, while acting as mercentile agents in a supposedly minor matter, find themselves dealing with intrigue and monster attacks.

Shadow Sea - A shipwrecked nobleman fleeing a fallen city crosses a barely known sea to the strange heartland of the invaders, intent on rescuing his wife and father. 

Falling Towers - Hundreds of years ago, two battling wizardly factions called a truce, and scattered dangerous arcane devices amongst their many towers.  But now warlords, barbarians, and fanatics are arising, and the towers are falling one by one.  Can a long dark age be prevented?


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## Wanara009 (Dec 3, 2012)

The Warrior and the Healer: A wandering warrior agreed to escort a healer to the north. However, when the healer began to doubt herself, the warrior insist on continuing. Why is he so adamant about getting there? All of this is set during a time the nations that controls the northern land are experiencing heavy turmoil and the threat of war loomed ever closer.

A King's Oath: A peaceful king made an oath to unify the archipelago. However, he does not have the military mind to do it so he called upon his master tactician of a best friend. The story details how the king and his friend changes as the campaign goes on.

By the looks of it, I'm focusing on how the people react and interact with other during a certain situation. I also like to explore the conflict within my characters and how it'll change them (i.e.: a peace-loving king forced to wage war that will certainly changes him, a simple idealistic man forced into the complex and corrupt underworld out of a patriotic sense of duty, etc).


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## Leif Notae (Dec 3, 2012)

Hmm, this is why I am glad I posted this. It appears there are many "concepts" that are not clear. I'd love to see more, just to see if this trend keeps happening (no bad reflection on you all that posted, it is always good to have these conversations).


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## Ireth (Dec 3, 2012)

Winter's Queen: A human teenager struggles to escape an impeding forced marriage to a Fae prince, while her father and uncle search for her in Faerie.

Summer's Pawn: A human family and their Fae guide hunt down a fugitive Fae princess, and must decide whether they are willing to forfeit everything they have to keep her safe.

Low Road: A young vampire finds a new home, makes friends and (possibly) falls in love, then is threatened and runs into the Big Bad while seeking revenge on the man who tries to kill his (possible) lover. Said Big Bad tries to corrupt him, but the hero defies him.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Dec 3, 2012)

*The Arcana Memento *- A young girl is admitted to a famous school where she learns that she is a magician. As she struggles to master her powers, she finds out more about her long lost mother, who seems to have left a mysterious legacy for her to uncover. 

*Thousand Skies* - At the brink of death, a young man is drawn into a world of magic and swashbuckling adventure! There, he swears himself to serve as the protector of a beautiful princess, knowing that if she dies, he dies as well. 

*Untitled *- A group of orphans are raised as warriors at a military academy, but must flee as a mysterious calamity destroys their world. A misshap with a time machine scatters them across time and space. Guided by mysterious forces, they must now must find a way to reunite and uncover the events that led up to the destruction of their world.

*Calamity Gadget* - On a planet where a system of deadly satelites keeps the inhabitants from ever reaching space, a powerful android of mysterious origins tries to pass for a normal teenage boy. But after defeating a massive mechanical monstrosity from outer space, his seven "siblings" arrive and offer an ultimatum: Do battle with us, or watch your homeworld burn. 

*Soulmate* - A boy meets a beautiful girl and finds that she is his soulmate. (Literally.) Problem is, the boy is already in love with a different girl. A story about love, friendship and magical swords.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Dec 3, 2012)

Leif Notae said:


> Hmm, this is why I am glad I posted this. It appears there are many "concepts" that are not clear.



Keep in mind that it can be difficult to sum up all the aspects and intricalities of a concept in a few sentences. That doesn't mean the concept is unclear to us who are writing it.


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## Philip Overby (Dec 3, 2012)

It's funny you posted this Leif, as I'm reading Larry Brooks's book "Story Engineering" at the moment and he talks about concepts in the early stages.  Something he notes about concepts in the book is that you need to be able to ask several "What if...?" questions in order to see how deep your concept really is.  He also talks about the difference between an "idea" and a "concept."  

An idea is more like "A man travels across a desert to find a dragon."

A concept is more like "What if a blind Dragon Rider travels across a desert to kill a dragon that used to be his mount?" (Something I just made up here).  

There's a little bit more meat to the second one because you've made the journey more intriguing because it's just not a man trying to find a dragon, but a blind Dragon Rider looking to kill a dragon that used to be his.  This brings up loads of questions.  

Why is the man blind?  Was he blind from birth?  Did using the dragon to fly give him more mobility and now he is lost without it?  Did the dragon actually blind him?  Why does he want to kill the dragon?  Did it betray him?  Did he betray it?  Is this a revenge story or does it go deeper?  How is a blind man going to make it across a desert without getting lost?  Does he have a plan?  

This concept I came up with may not be completely awesome, but it does open up a slew of other questions that you hope the readers will be asking themselves when they pick up the book.  It could probably go even deeper than that, but the key I think is to make sure the concept has a lot of things working for it.  Something for a potential reader to latch onto in addition to some dramatic possibilities.


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## MadMadys (Dec 3, 2012)

Phil the Drill said:


> An idea is more like "A man travels across a desert to find a dragon."
> 
> A concept is more like "What if a blind Dragon Rider travels across a desert to kill a dragon that used to be his mount?" (Something I just made up here).



That's a great way to put it (made up or not!).  I usually start with an idea and develop it until it sounds halfway amusing.

Live On City: An ex-convict, ex-military, over 50, drunk woman has to escort a young boy across a future meg-city in order to pay rent and she's out of cigarettes.

Dragon Wench: Young man is possessed by a disrespectful queen dragon who had been banished for years and so he seeks to free himself of her when he isn't at work, shopping, or trying online dating.

Deep Red: The crew of submarine on a far off planet race to turn in an amazing find while one of the crew members attempts to sabotage the mission because they're lonely.


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## Philip Overby (Dec 3, 2012)

@MadMadys:  Well, the difference between idea and concept is developed more in Brooks's book.  I meant I just made up the concept (about the Dragon Rider.)  Don't want people to think I'm taking credit for what is in Brooks's book.  

Your concepts sound interesting to me for several reasons:

1.  The buzz-words in your first concept pique my interest:
a.  _ex-convict, ex-military, over 50, drunk woman_  That evokes an image immediately of a pretty wild character, someone I'd be interested in reading about.
b.  _future meg-city_  Not sure what that is, but it sounds interesting.
c.  _she's out of cigarettes_  This makes me think, "Oh, this should be funny."  Which I think is what you're going for.  

2.  Even though your concept is short, it's packed full of stuff to hook a reader in.  I think that's what makes a good concept:  something short, to the point, but full of details that may interest potential readers/editors.


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## BWFoster78 (Dec 3, 2012)

How's this for an idea:

A boy really wants a girl to like him.

It's simple, but a million books have been written with only slight variations on that theme.

I think what I'm trying to say is that the concept of your book doesn't have to be all that awesomely mind-blowing in order to produce something worth reading.  A well written story with relatable characters, tension, and emotion will engage the reader.

That's not to say that I disagree with the posters above entirely; I just wanted to bring a bit of a different perspective.


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## Philip Overby (Dec 3, 2012)

As an idea, "A boy really wants a girl to like him" is, of course, a great one.  Like you said, there are tons of stories that feature this idea.  However, what Brooks is trying to get across is that ideas are a dime a dozen.  A concept has to have something in it to get readers interested and also give you dramatic tension.  

So as an idea:  "A boy really wants a girl to like him" works.  But if someone said, "Let me tell you about my book!  It's about a boy who really wants a girl to like him."  People may say, "So what?"  A concept has to go a bit deeper than that.  

I agree, concepts don't have to be intricate or complicated in order to get interest, but they do have to have some kind of hook that gives both the reader and writer something to work with.  Like "A boy really wants a robot girl to like him."  Then a bit deeper, "A vampire boy really wants a robot girl to like him."  Each sort of addition may add layers of drama or conflict.    

A vampire boy and a robot girl can't be together right?


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## saellys (Dec 3, 2012)

Wow, Brooks's egregious overuse of italics and boldface makes that article nigh unreadable for me. I muddled through, and came away with an impression that he thinks writers should narrow really general ideas down into really specific ideas. Yup, that's a great thing to do before you start writing. 

Since we're all sharing, _Camlann_ is about two estranged brothers must work together to restore their dishonored family before war and politics bring them to ruin.


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## Ireth (Dec 3, 2012)

Phil the Drill said:


> A vampire boy and a robot girl can't be together right?



I don't see why they can't, personally. XD My mom has a story in progress about a vampire who falls in love with an android.


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## MadMadys (Dec 3, 2012)

Phil the Drill said:


> A vampire boy and a robot girl can't be together right?



Who are you to deny their love?

And Phil I quoted your earlier post because it was a good example rather than thinking you came up with point.  Perfect examples are always appreciated.  My take on that example, would be saying you want to build a house.  Great!  That's an idea.  I want to build a two-story house, 3 bedroom and two bath with a bar and dungeon attached to the two car garage.  That's a concept and a creepy one at that.

An appealing concept for me is one that has something in it I wouldn't expect.  As in my earlier example, I have a very unusual protagonist, over-50 female, on a lame 'quest' for a mundane reason.  I wanted to create something that sounded so odd that it would at least entice the person to look a little deeper.  The story itself is a pure character study on making a main character that is unappealing but still human and so, instinctively, we attach to her.  All that is just added concept talk, of course, but it all spawned from one incy wincy idea.


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## Leif Notae (Dec 3, 2012)

saellys said:


> Wow, Brooks's egregious overuse of italics and boldface makes that article nigh unreadable for me. I muddled through, and came away with an impression that he thinks writers should narrow really general ideas down into really specific ideas. Yup, that's a great thing to do before you start writing.



I will say this about Brooks, he is 100% bitter failed author first and internet marketer second. He has some ideas, yes, and he has some skills in getting others to open up, of course. However, he is also someone who is keeping food on the plate by offering the $100-$300 critiquing services.

As far as being a critic for anyone's synopsis or concept, I only point out there are some here that are in predevelopment while others are missing a great opportunity.

The one I just finished up (Short Story): A witch hunter with tainted blood returns to her parent's estate when she discovers her family is held hostage. The only help she has is an initiate, a trained vampire, and two old witch hunters. She struggles with watching her past die before her eyes while maintaining control over the one bargaining chip she has, a gem powered by the souls of the victims the witch skins alive. Along the way, she runs into a family member she never thought she would see again.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Dec 3, 2012)

Phil the Drill said:


> A vampire boy and a robot girl can't be together right?



Well, I dunno. Is the robot girl a vampire hunter? (Robots make for _kickass _vampire hunters. Tricky to bite, and they have no blood.)

If it's just a vampire and a robot, I don't see where you get the drama and conflict. In fact, they would work better together than either one would with a human, for various reasons: Vampires are noctural and robots don't need to sleep; vampires cannot prey on robots, so the girl is safe from him; both can theoretically live for a very long time, etc, etc.


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## Rullenzar (Dec 4, 2012)

Figured I'd join the fun. 

Untitled - A man sets out on a journey of revenge but soon realizes everything he thought he knew is the shadow of something much more sinister at work and gets tangled up into a plot his birthright always meant for him to be in.

This is basically my story in a nutshell set in a medieval time.


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## Philip Overby (Dec 4, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> Well, I dunno. Is the robot girl a vampire hunter? (Robots make for _kickass _vampire hunters. Tricky to bite, and they have no blood.)
> 
> If it's just a vampire and a robot, I don't see where you get the drama and conflict. In fact, they would work better together than either one would with a human, for various reasons: Vampires are noctural and robots don't need to sleep; vampires cannot prey on robots, so the girl is safe from him; both can theoretically live for a very long time, etc, etc.



I was just sort of giving an example, but the drama and conflict could come from tons of sources.  

a.  Robots don't feel, therefore cannot love so a vampire being in love with one couldn't be reciprocated.  Problem number 1.  Unrequited love.
b.  Vampires and robots can live for a long time, yes, but robots could also theoretically break down.  More problems.
c.  I assume there could be tension IF the robot was a vampire hunter.  Tension there.

Any concept can have dramatic tension if you think outside the box a little bit.  It doesn't have to be (a) is this therefore (b) cannot happen.

So, yeah, maybe there wasn't much dramatic tension in my original example, but the potential is there, which shows that it's more conceptual than saying "A boy wants a girl to like him."

As for Brooks, I think he has tons of awesome ideas to get writers thinking.  More so than other "write a novel" type books.


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## BWFoster78 (Dec 4, 2012)

Phil the Drill said:


> As an idea, "A boy really wants a girl to like him" is, of course, a great one.  Like you said, there are tons of stories that feature this idea.  However, what Brooks is trying to get across is that ideas are a dime a dozen.  A concept has to have something in it to get readers interested and also give you dramatic tension.
> 
> So as an idea:  "A boy really wants a girl to like him" works.  But if someone said, "Let me tell you about my book!  It's about a boy who really wants a girl to like him."  People may say, "So what?"  A concept has to go a bit deeper than that.
> 
> ...



Phil,

I understand, but I had two problems with the comments espoused so far on the thread.  I'm not sure that either of these were actually meant as much as what I inferred.

1. The relative importance of plot to character.  A good character with the right emotion and internal tension can make a story about doing dishes interesting.

2. The implication that you need to have a fully developed concept before you start writing.  Granted, that way is more efficient, but, sometimes, you can come up with great stuff on the fly.

Which story is more interesting:

A. The hero stops terrorists from detonating a nuclear bomb in NYC.
B. The hero gets his bicycle back from a bully.

Truthfully, I couldn't tell you.  Both have the potential to be interesting or terrible based on the characters and the writing.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Dec 4, 2012)

Phil the Drill said:


> I was just sort of giving an example, but the drama and conflict could come from tons of sources.
> 
> a.  Robots don't feel, therefore cannot love so a vampire being in love with one couldn't be reciprocated.  Problem number 1.  Unrequited love.



Or better: The robot can simulate emotions in response to stimuli, but isn't sure if her feelings are "real."



> b.  Vampires and robots can live for a long time, yes, but robots could also theoretically break down.  More problems.



On the other hand, robots can also be maintained and repaired. 

Plus, same can be said about vampires if they become exposed to sunlight, etc. Their relationship could still last much longer than if they had a mortal human partner.



> c.  I assume there could be tension IF the robot was a vampire hunter.  Tension there.
> 
> Any concept can have dramatic tension if you think outside the box a little bit. It doesn't have to be (a) is this therefore (b) cannot happen.
> 
> So, yeah, maybe there wasn't much dramatic tension in my original example, but the potential is there, which shows that it's more conceptual than saying "A boy wants a girl to like him."



I don't entirely agree. I do think the vampire/robot thing is a better concept, simply because it's a cool idea, but I don't think it has more inherent potential for drama and conflict.

Everything you just said applies to "a boy wants a girl to like him" as well - either way, you're going to need to elaborate on it.


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## Graylorne (Dec 4, 2012)

Actually, this whole thing is no more that the famous  'you are in an elevator with a great publisher who shows a vague interest in your book and you've one minute to tell him what's it about' sales-pitch. 
Very important, but not really a revolutionary idea. Or am I missing something subtle here?


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## Chilari (Dec 4, 2012)

I get the impression that what the author of the article meant was that a concept is an idea plus a conflict, rather than a more detailed idea. Some of those described do seem like great ideas, even with some really interesting characters, but don't actually look at the conflict. Building on Phil's suggestion, this is the idea:



> A boy wants a girl to like him.



This is the detailed idea:



> A vampire boy wants a robot girl to like him.



And this is the concept:



> A vampire boy wants a robot girl to like him, but she is solar powered and he can't go out in sunlight.



The expanded idea misses out on the conflict. It hints at something more interesting by giving the characters attributes which are not normal, but it doesn't specify what the conflict is that arises from these attributes. I get the impression that the conflict is at the core of what makes something a concept, at least according to the linked article.


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## saellys (Dec 4, 2012)

Graylorne said:


> Actually, this whole thing is no more that the famous  'you are in an elevator with a great publisher who shows a vague interest in your book and you've one minute to tell him what's it about' sales-pitch.
> Very important, but not really a revolutionary idea. Or am I missing something subtle here?



I had the same reaction.


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## BWFoster78 (Dec 4, 2012)

Chilari said:


> I get the impression that what the author of the article meant was that a concept is an idea plus a conflict, rather than a more detailed idea. Some of those described do seem like great ideas, even with some really interesting characters, but don't actually look at the conflict. Building on Phil's suggestion, this is the idea:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I guess my question is:

Why is "a boy wants a girl to like him" not enough of a concept in and of itself?  You don't need robots and vampires to make a good story.  A norman human boy struggling to get a normal human girl to like him is plenty interesting and relatable in and of itself.


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## Graylorne (Dec 4, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> I guess my question is:
> 
> Why is "a boy wants a girl to like him" not enough of a concept in and of itself?  You don't need robots and vampires to make a good story.  A norman human boy struggling to get a normal human girl to like him is plenty interesting and relatable in and of itself.



Isn't it too basic for an adequate concept?

Besides, that every concept needs a conflict, is logical, for every story needs a conflict. 'Boy struggling to get girl' is better than 'boy wants girl', but it would be even better if there was some original twist to it.

Something that convinces that publisher in the elevator to buy your story,


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## Chilari (Dec 4, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> I guess my question is:
> 
> Why is "a boy wants a girl to like him" not enough of a concept in and of itself?  You don't need robots and vampires to make a good story.  A norman human boy struggling to get a normal human girl to like him is plenty interesting and relatable in and of itself.



Okay, yes, that can be an interesting and relatable story. But the conflict isn't established. What's stopping him from getting the girl to like him? What's the obstacle? That appears to be the criteria by which the article linked in the original post judges a concept. "Boy wants girl to like him" is an idea; "boy wants girl from a social caste or group he does not belong to to like him" presents the conflict, or "boy wants girl to like him, but he's invisible", or "boy wants girl to like him, but her parents are super protective and won't let her talk to boys." There's where the idea becomes a concept - again, as per the definition in the article.

In itself, "boy wants girl to like him" is no more than an idea; I have no idea whether it will be interesting or relatable from that alone. It doesn't tell me what adversity the boy faces, or why his story is any more important than any other boy's story. That's what the conflict does. It tells me why I should root for him, it tells me that something interesting must happen in order for the goal to be achieved. That's what the difference is.


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## Leif Notae (Dec 4, 2012)

Graylorne said:


> Actually, this whole thing is no more that the famous  'you are in an elevator with a great publisher who shows a vague interest in your book and you've one minute to tell him what's it about' sales-pitch.
> Very important, but not really a revolutionary idea. Or am I missing something subtle here?



The elevator pitch is limited to about 25 words, a line or two at best on what your project (more often than not a movie/t.v. show) is about. 

Concept/Synopsis is more about the back cover blurb. Those liner notes you can use to hook people in and keep them glued. 

They are the same, yet different. One is a quick verbal pitch, another is a lengthy (in comparison) written pitch. The thing here is to get you to explore your synopsis and really see if there's more to it or if you are being honest with yourself about having a "story".

I see a lot of excuses about how the reader won't get it, or they have to stick around for 300 pages when the manuscript is only 299. 

The bottom line: If you want to be serious about this, stop being an "artist" and start being more "business minded".


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## Leif Notae (Dec 4, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> I guess my question is:
> 
> Why is "a boy wants a girl to like him" not enough of a concept in and of itself?  You don't need robots and vampires to make a good story.  A norman human boy struggling to get a normal human girl to like him is plenty interesting and relatable in and of itself.



Boy wants girl to like him isn't enough. That might be good for some bubblegum reader, but if you want more, you need to add more and dig more. This is an escape for most people while getting them to identify with the protag on a deep level. It means you are going to do things deeper than the weak boy wants girl to like him.


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## BWFoster78 (Dec 4, 2012)

Leif Notae said:


> Boy wants girl to like him isn't enough. That might be good for some bubblegum reader, but if you want more, you need to add more and dig more. This is an escape for most people while getting them to identify with the protag on a deep level. It means you are going to do things deeper than the weak boy wants girl to like him.



See, I disagree completely.  If the characters and tension and emotion are there, you don't need more.


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## Leif Notae (Dec 4, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> See, I disagree completely.  If the characters and tension and emotion are there, you don't need more.



But your statement here implies there is more. It isn't a silent pining, you are saying there is more to the story which makes it more complex than boys desires girl.


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## Steerpike (Dec 4, 2012)

Not everything has to be "plot driven," and that's basically what you're doing if you say that you _have_ to add more to a simple "boy wants girls to like him" - you're pushing toward a more plot-driven than character-driven story.

If you want to see some brilliant short stories, take a look at the works of William Trevor. They're not fantasy, but great pieces and the vast majority are strongly character driven. He could take the "boy wants girl' concept and make a compelling piece of it without the need to throw in external plot obstacles. The same might be said of some of the stories depicting daily life by John Cheever.

I think BWFoster is absolutely right; if you story is about character, you can do a great job without adding external plot obstacles.


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## SeverinR (Dec 4, 2012)

“That’s not how I write! I like to discover my story as I go along!”

Just as in life, you set goals as to where you want to head in life and in your story.
What happens along the way, bumps in the road, twists and uncontrolled events are life.
Having a strong concept doesn't mean you have to have every breath planned out.

Like a family vacation, you know where you're going, but the events along the way make the adventure, not just the destination.  That "Worlds largest ball of yarn", the flat tire where the child says "fudge", and so on, are what makes up the story to go along with the concept, works with but does not ruin it or spoil the fun.

I bet some how, somewhere, someone has stumbled across a good story by writing without a strong concept, but I bet there are millions that tried and failed.  My first few stories went no where, for this reason.  
Until you get a strong concept, a destination, you are spinning your wheels, or doing doughnuts very fast but going no where.


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## Leif Notae (Dec 4, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Not everything has to be "plot driven," and that's basically what you're doing if you say that you _have_ to add more to a simple "boy wants girls to like him" - you're pushing toward a more plot-driven than character-driven story.



Not really, because the plot is the more complex character interaction. Boy wants girl is bland. Boy wants girl, girl wants some other boy, boy wants to prove to girl he is worthy, etc. That is an extension of character and touched with a plot.


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## Graylorne (Dec 4, 2012)

Leif Notae said:


> The elevator pitch is limited to about 25 words, a line or two at best on what your project (more often than not a movie/t.v. show) is about.
> 
> Concept/Synopsis is more about the back cover blurb. Those liner notes you can use to hook people in and keep them glued.
> 
> ...




But the concept we were discussing was an elevator pitch, not a synopsis. At least that's what I understood. A synpsis is what you send with your manuscript. I write my synopses after I finish a book, not before. A concept goes the other way round, I'd say (though I generally don't write those down).


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## BWFoster78 (Dec 4, 2012)

> Not really, because the plot is the more complex character interaction. Boy wants girl is bland. Boy wants girl, girl wants some other boy, boy wants to prove to girl he is worthy, etc. That is an extension of character and touched with a plot.



I don't think that boy wants girl is bland at all.  It's something that just about anyone can identify with.

Certainly, things will come up to add drama and tension.  That can be both internal (boy doesn't think he's good enough) and external (miscommunication leads to boy thinking girl is in love with other boy).

However, I don't need to know any of that at the start of the story.  The fundamental idea of boy wants girl is a sound start.  Next, my characters begin to form.  I put the idea and the characters together and see what happens, letting the characters lead.


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## Steerpike (Dec 4, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> However, I don't need to know any of that at the start of the story.



I agree again. I write all my short stories this way. I just start with an idea, and sometimes a very vague idea indeed. Sometimes it's just a picture of a character in my mind, standing somewhere or doing something. I've sold two such stories in the past couple of months, and I expect to sell at least two more in the next couple of months, so the idea that you can't write a short story this way is nonsense.

I'm working on a longer piece that started in just this way, but for that one I've taken time to try to consciously develop it outside of writing (i.e. by outlining or whatever), but for short stories I just sit down and start typing with very little idea of where it is heading.


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## Chilari (Dec 4, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Not everything has to be "plot driven," and that's basically what you're doing if you say that you _have_ to add more to a simple "boy wants girls to like him" - you're pushing toward a more plot-driven than character-driven story.



The obstacle doesn't have to be external, it could be that the boy is cripplingly shy and has to overcome that in order to achieve his goal of getting the girl to like him. The point is that there is still a conflict at the core of the concept.

I do agree that you don't need to know the concept when you first put fingers to keyboard (or pen to paper) You might start with a moment, a single situation, and expand from that and through writing work out what the core conflict is (and it might well be someone very different from originally imagined).


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## Steerpike (Dec 4, 2012)

Chilari said:


> The obstacle doesn't have to be external, it could be that the boy is cripplingly shy and has to overcome that in order to achieve his goal of getting the girl to like him. The point is that there is still a conflict at the core of the concept.
> 
> I do agree that you don't need to know the concept when you first put fingers to keyboard (or pen to paper) You might start with a moment, a single situation, and expand from that and through writing work out what the core conflict is (and it might well be someone very different from originally imagined).



Yes, I think this is exactly right. It seems in genre fiction, however, and perhaps even more in new writers to genre fiction, there is an assumption that a dramatic external obstacle is needed. I took BWFoster's example to mean that you can write a great story of 'boy wants girl' based just on the emotions and tensions of the characters themselves. You still need some kind of conflict, but it doesn't have to be orcs sweeping out of the hills to kidnap the girl.


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## Leif Notae (Dec 4, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> I don't think that boy wants girl is bland at all.  It's something that just about anyone can identify with.
> 
> Certainly, things will come up to add drama and tension.  That can be both internal (boy doesn't think he's good enough) and external (miscommunication leads to boy thinking girl is in love with other boy).
> 
> However, I don't need to know any of that at the start of the story.  The fundamental idea of boy wants girl is a sound start.  Next, my characters begin to form.  I put the idea and the characters together and see what happens, letting the characters lead.



A start, perhaps. But you are admitting in this post it isn't the entire concept. 

I'm not picking on this, but I want people to see this moment for what it is. We are admitting "boy wants girl" is a start, but it isn't a complete concept. 

You are injecting other things to ramp up the tension, but it isn't a story until that starts. It isn't even a full concept until that starts. 

And with that, I am going to leave this boy wants girl topic be. I'm glad I never wanted anyone else other than myself, thank you very much... And beer.


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## BWFoster78 (Dec 4, 2012)

The point wasn't that there is no conflict; the points were:

1. You can base conflict off character interactions rather than external events (counter to posts that seemingly advocate the more wild the plot the better).

2. You do not necessarily need to come up with much more than a basic idea to drive your book (counter to posts that seemingly advocate that more is needed).


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## BWFoster78 (Dec 4, 2012)

> You are injecting other things to ramp up the tension, but it isn't a story until that starts. It isn't even a full concept until that starts.



If vampire meets robot, etc. is a full concept, boy wants girl is one as well. 

You could define a concept however you want.  You could define it as a full plot: if you don't have a full scene outline of your entire book, you don't have a concept.  

That seems pointless to me.  A concept is what you need to get started.


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## Philip Overby (Dec 4, 2012)

Well, maybe vampire meets robot isn't a full concept, but it's more fleshed out than "boy wants a girl to like him."  I think the main goal of this thread was to share concepts.  If you're sharing the concept "boy wants a girl to like him" most people are going to not care.  They're not going to say, "Wow, I want to read that book!"  For your own purposes, sure, it works, because you know where you're going with it.  But if you're sharing your concept (the point of the thread) people are going to say, "And?"  In any case, these type of conversations always go in circles.  It's a potAYto, potAto, conversation.  

I think we're defining concept how the original topic defines it (as linked in the OP).  An idea is that first seed, while a concept has more elements to it.  

Anyway, who cares how people define it.  Everyone has their own strict or liberal interpretation of what a concept is.  Whatever gets you writing at the end of the day:  you can call it idea, concept, funkalupacus, or whatever.


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## Feo Takahari (Dec 5, 2012)

I've been swaying back and forth on whether or not I should say this, but I might as well get it out there. I read _The New Yorker_ for a couple years, and every story I ever read in it had no "concept" as the article defines it. While some of them had obvious conflict (which would theoretically lead to a concept), it was largely static in nature, involving protagonists who completely failed  to notice that there was a conflict at all. (Granted, this style is pretty unusual for genre fiction . . .)


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## Rullenzar (Dec 5, 2012)

Can we get off the boy meets girl/wants girl topic please and move on to other examples as you all are beating this concept/idea into the ground and just arguing over the same points being reworded differently by each individual. I was enjoying this topic until everyone took a fun little excercise and turned it into "I'm smarter then you!" dribble. 

Lets hear some of your actual story ideas/concepts and return to this being fun.


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## Philip Overby (Dec 5, 2012)

Yeah, I said that two posts ago.  I agree of course;  let's move back to sharing concepts.

I'll offer up a concept I came up with:

"A fallen family creates a golem to use as a tool to gain vengeance on those that deposed them.  Follows the multi-generational path of the family as they gather materials, craft, enchant, and command the golem to a revenge plan a century in the making."

I've always wanted to write a multi-POV saga that deals with a family across generations.  I thought it would be cool to have this family slowly build a golem over several lifetimes, the different family members struggling whether it's worth it to continue the wish of their ancestors.  Sort of deals with what do you do when your hated enemies are a family full of warlocks.  Make a golem!


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## Rullenzar (Dec 5, 2012)

Didn't see your post sorry but great minds think alike 

It's an interesting twist on a revenge story that's for sure.


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## Ankari (Dec 5, 2012)

My current stkry:

A bastard people of two races serves as slaves or, at best, as peasants denied the rights of regular citizens.  A young man seeks to preserve the innocence of his sister but his family desires otherwise.  A mercenary leader has a the goal of toppling the established rules of power.  All the while, an assassin-spy defies all loyalty for her personal goals.


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## Steerpike (Dec 5, 2012)

The academic discussion is a bit more useful, in my view. If the topic is strength of concept, it is worth noting that apart from the execution a concept itself is virtually meaningless. The most mundane, dull-sounding concept can be handled brilliantly, and a concept that sounds truly remarkable in summary form can be easily bungled.

The article Leif posted is about distinguishing a complete concept from a mere idea, and what elements lead to that distinction. That's and interesting topic, and the one we were discussing. It's a lot more interesting (and useful) than a thread of people exchanging their story ideas.


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## Rullenzar (Dec 5, 2012)

But at the end of the day, all your really doing is picking apart a fun little excercise. I find is amusing and interesting to see what kind of ideas/concepts people are working on. 

Is that not worth it in itself?

But in sharing your concept/idea we can critique it like we have been. Distinguishing like you say the good from the bad or the well developed from the mundane. 

What me and the last poster were saying is that you all made your points of the prior one. But at a certain point people were being redundant and saying the same things over and over in a different way. I emphasized that we should move on to another one which in turn may help people discover something they didn't realize from the basic one you all were smashing.


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## Steerpike (Dec 5, 2012)

Rullenzar said:


> But at the end of the day, all your really doing is picking apart a fun little excercise. I find is amusing and interesting to see what kind of ideas/concepts people are working on.
> 
> Is that not worth it in itself?
> 
> ...



I always think it is interesting to hear what people are working on. I just wanted to point out that the 'academic' discussion was actually on-topic, and so there was nothing wrong with it. I find that interesting as well, even if the points have to be re-hashed a few times while people sort them out.

But I'm a fan of threads that follow an organic path of discussion, and if that leads to people posting their current concepts to share with others, I think that's great. Here's the one for the children's book I'm outlining:

Girl eats a candy that turns her into a cat; seems great at first but when she realizes she can't turn back and her mom doesn't know who she is, she sets off to find the strange little man who gave her the candy to make him turn her back.


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## BWFoster78 (Dec 5, 2012)

> Can we get off the boy meets girl/wants girl topic please and move on to other examples as you all are beating this concept/idea into the ground and just arguing over the same points being reworded differently by each individual. I was enjoying this topic until everyone took a fun little excercise and turned it into "I'm smarter then you!" dribble.



This forum provides a lot of benefits: a place to go when the words aren't flowing to get a kick in the pants or encouragement, social interaction with people who enjoy the same hobby, a place to bounce ideas off people, etc.

Since joining this forum, my ability as a writer has increased quite a bit.

The improvement is directly attributable to many sources, but one of them is definitely a free exchange of ideas with the other forum members about the academic/intellectual/technical side of writing.  Granted, I'm not sure that this particular discussion was leading to any great revelations on anyone's part, but the process, for me at least, is helpful.

I gain knowledge of writing from a lot of disconnected sources.  Debate helps me crystallize my thoughts into coherent structure.  Reading contrary opinions strengthens some of my beliefs and forces me to discard others.

Sorry that you found little use/entertainment in the discussion, but, again, I find the process useful.

EDIT: It's strange what can trigger a "breakthrough" in writing.  One of my writing mentors told me all the time, "You need to get inside your character's head more."  Page after page of comments had that same remark.  Then one day, a guy comes to our writing group and tells me, essentially, that I need to get inside my character's head more.  I was like, "Wow, you're right."  I'm sure my mentor pretty much had to slap his head at that point (or, more likely, wanted to slap me upside mine.).  The point being that you just never know what's going to make you a better writer.


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## ScipioSmith (Dec 6, 2012)

Boy wants girl but he is confused and thinks he wants to be her father while Girl is spending all day dressed as a boy to pay off her debt to a group of male escorts including Boy. 

Beleive it or not this concept exists.


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## Chilari (Dec 7, 2012)

ScipioSmith said:


> Boy wants girl but he is confused and thinks he wants to be her father while Girl is spending all day dressed as a boy to pay off her debt to a group of male escorts including Boy.
> 
> Beleive it or not this concept exists.



Is that Les Mis?


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## Ghost (Dec 7, 2012)

Ouran High School Host Club.


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## Jabrosky (Dec 19, 2012)

My current project, _The Lakes of the Moon_, evolved from asking the question, "What would happen if an Egyptian Pharaoh got kidnapped by Vikings"? That concept seed had a special appeal to me because it clashes together two sharply contrasting cultures (one a rich African civilization, the other a bunch of European barbarians). I've developed the idea a bit more and will now sum up the concept as best as I can in one sentence:

When Vikings kidnap an Egyptian Pharaoh, she must lead them through a dinosaur-infested jungle to find an ancient treasure.


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