# Pro vs. Con: Self-Pub vs. Trad Pub



## GeekDavid (Oct 17, 2013)

Okay, here's the ground rules.

You cannot just list the pros for your preferred method. You have to at least list one con for your preferred method or a pro for the other method.

I'll start.

*Self-publishing*

Pros

More revenue comes back to the author
More control over things such as deadlines, order of book release, cover design
Freedom to write things a traditional publishing house might balk at.


Cons

More out-of-pocket expenses (editing, cover design, marketing)
Stigma against independently published authors


*Traditional publishing*

Pros

Better exposure in brick-and-mortar bookstores
Free access to editing and cover design services


Cons

They set the deadlines, when the books are released and in what order, what the cover will look like.
They typically pay very little to the author


Your turn!


----------



## ndmellen (Oct 17, 2013)

Now that my manuscript is in the last stages of its' final draft I've been wondering about this...I didn't know that traditional publishing paid less to the author...I thought it was the other way around.


----------



## GeekDavid (Oct 17, 2013)

ndmellen said:


> Now that my manuscript is in the last stages of its' final draft I've been wondering about this...I didn't know that traditional publishing paid less to the author...I thought it was the other way around.



From Amazon you can get 70% of the cover price as your royalty. Some pay more.

Traditional publishing royalties are between 4 and 15%.

I'd rather have 70%.


----------



## Devor (Oct 17, 2013)

ndmellen said:


> Now that my manuscript is in the last stages of its' final draft I've been wondering about this...I didn't know that traditional publishing paid less to the author...I thought it was the other way around.



It depends.  Traditional publishers usually pay you an advance on your royalties, which doesn't usually pay out.  So if your sales are low, you might make more.  On the other hand, the theory is that your sales should be higher because they can get you in bookstores, and get reviewers to pay attention to your work.  Sometimes that difference pans out, and sometimes it doesn't.  But there's definitely a sweetspot where a midlister who knows marketing will do much better without a publisher.


----------



## Philip Overby (Oct 17, 2013)

I always like to compare indie authors to indie rock groups. It used to mean in the past, if you wanted to be a successful musician you needed to get signed to a major label. Same went for an author; if you don't have a major publisher behind your work, you wouldn't have much chance for success.

However, Kindle and other self-publishing avenues make it easier for authors to get their work out there, same as indie labels helped rock bands. However, if you ever go to an indie concert, you're rolling the dice on whether it's going to be good or not. I don't view myself as a professional as of yet, but picking up a self-published Kindle book is like going to an indie concert or to quote Forrest Gump "it's like a box of chocolates." You never know what you're going to get. 

So while I think the opportunities presenting themselves to authors are great nowadays, just because an avenue exists, doesn't necessarily mean you need to jump right into it. I think BW has a great philosophy on it so far: make sure he's ready for "prime time" by exploring every option to make his first book the best it can be. I don't believe he's taken his decision to self-publish lightly. I can't say the same for a lot of self-published authors.

"Self-published." No matter how lucrative it can be now, there is still that stigma attached. Sure, some mainstream venues are starting to review self-published books, but you might as well win the lottery to get the chance for that. As long as self-published authors write first drafts full of errors and horrible prose and submit them to Amazon without a second glance, self-publishing will still have that stigma. This is one reason that I only read self-published authors if I've already heard something good about them from someone else or they're a friend or acquaintance. Or, in a rare circumstance, they promote their book and something catches my eye about it. There is one indie author I saw recently, and his cover was very interesting. It looked very different than I was used to seeing. I don't believe it's been released yet, but the cover and concept was something I might pick up. This is a very rare occurrence for me. While I do want to support and try more indie authors, I'm having a slow go at it. I hope this will change for me as time goes on. 

I just trust traditionally published authors more at this time. Not to say they're always going to be awesome, but I have favorites and I'm finding new favorites all the time. With so many authors already producing books I want to read, then it's harder to find self-published books I want to read as well. Perhaps if more self-published authors were writing the kind of stuff I like, I'd check it out. 

There's an author Anthony Ryan, who I believe self-published his book _Blood Song_ and turned that into a major deal. Of course Michael J. Sullivan has done the same thing. I believe the wave of the future, for me anyway, is to hopefully follow in their footsteps. I want to be a so-called hybrid author: working with traditional publishers and also self-publishing on the side. I have a feeling more and more are going to go this route as time goes on. I don't necessarily think I have to work for a major publisher, but I'd at least like to attempt it.

So I agree with all of the pros and cons above that GeekDavid listed, however I believe why not try to get the best of both worlds if you can?


----------



## Lawfire (Oct 18, 2013)

Speaking of Michael J. Sullivan, here's a link to a post of his that provides some good information about the various forms of publication:

Click Here

It's an old thread, but interesting none-the-less.


----------



## yachtcaptcolby (Oct 18, 2013)

I self-published simply because I wanted to have something I'm in complete control of. I can do whatever I want with my world without having to take what someone thinks will or won't sell into consideration. It's a total vanity project; I'd rather write what I like than compromise for a guaranteed paycheck. I'm not working under any deadlines other than those I set for myself. 

I realize this means I've got to do a lot more on my own - finding editors, marketing, getting a cover, and all that - while fighting the stigma against self-publishing, but for my goals, that's a fair trade.


----------



## GeekDavid (Oct 18, 2013)

yachtcaptcolby said:


> I realize this means I've got to do a lot more on my own - finding editors, marketing, getting a cover, and all that - while fighting the stigma against self-publishing, but for my goals, that's a fair trade.



For someone who wants more control, it seems to me that finding the editor and cover and such aren't so much bugs as features.


----------



## yachtcaptcolby (Oct 21, 2013)

GeekDavid said:


> For someone who wants more control, it seems to me that finding the editor and cover and such aren't so much bugs as features.



Ain't that the truth! I've managed to build a decent little network of people I can trade editing work with, so that works out well.


----------



## psychotick (Oct 27, 2013)

Hi,

The biggest pro of self pubbling - that you can get the book out there at all. There are no more gate keepers - agents and publishers preventing you.

And on that note I'll also add that self pubbing allows for a greater variety of books to be published - including books that agents and publishers would never touch becuase they simply aren't commercial.

The cons - the biggest one would have to be the variable quality of the books being pubbed. Some are good and will rival anything put out by a trade publisher. Some - well they just aren't.

The pro's for the trade publishing route - professional help with covers, editing and marketing. And of course the better chance of selling lots of books and making a name for yourself.

The cons - to my mind - are the difficulty in finding an agent and getting the foot in the door to begin with. The incredible length of time it seems to take to publish a book, and the potential loss of creative control of your own work as editors and agents all have their own view on how it should read and what will sell.

And to return to the thought about eitors and covers and marketing. This is both a pro and a con to me. One of the things I have come to love as a self pubber is creating my own covers. I know many other authors enjoy the marketing side of it - including the social promotion. (One day I must try that.). And the extra work involved is also a challenge which I quite enjoy.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## GeekDavid (Oct 27, 2013)

psychotick said:


> The cons - to my mind - are the difficulty in finding an agent and getting the foot in the door to begin with. The incredible length of time it seems to take to publish a book, and the potential loss of creative control of your own work as editors and agents all have their own view on how it should read and what will sell.



Indeed.

One of the most popular modern American authors -- whose pen name is practically a household word, whose characters are so popular they've appeared on TV and in movies -- had to go to twenty-seven different publishers before he found one that would take his first book.

His name? Theodor Geisel. You know him as Dr. Seuss.


----------



## psychotick (Oct 28, 2013)

Hi,

While looking up Dr Seuss' rejections I came across this little site. Well worth a read for those at the gates of despair in finding an agent / publisher.

Best-Sellers Initially Rejected | Literary Rejections

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## RS McCoy (Oct 28, 2013)

This is a great question and one I still struggle to answer. Here is the breakdown as I see it so far:

Self Pub Pros:
-Profit 
-Control
-Self paced

Self Pub Cons:
-Finding an editor/cover artist that meets your needs/expectations
-Time spend marketing that could be spent writing
-Put up money up front

Trad Pub Pros:
-Exposure/more sales
-Team of Professionals
-Get your name out there

Trad Pub Cons:
-REALLY HARD to get published
-Lose control
-Subject to someone else's timeline
-Loss of profits

In the end, I hope to get published through traditional routes to build my name. I'll let the big wigs get the ball rolling,then post other titles through self pub routes and collect. That's the idea, anyways. I'll let you know how it goes!


----------



## Chilari (Oct 29, 2013)

RS McCoy, I can certainly see the value in taking that route - get validation through official routes to establish reputation and get come cash in via an advance, then regain control and use the momentum from traditionally publishing to take advantage of the benefits of self-publishing without succumbing to the drawbacks, or at least whiling having the capital to deal with them. The hybrid approach is one that's become increasingly popular - Michael Sullivan being one of the bigger names taking a hybrid approach by publishing via both routes and reaping the rewards of both.


----------



## Stevenmlong (Oct 29, 2013)

One big deal about self-publishing in terms of control is that if you self-publish a novel now it might suffer from stigma or get lost in the shuffle or whatever, but you'll still own that novel in 5 years, in 10, and so forth. Self-publishing isn't a race, it's a marathon. The goal IMO isn't to sell 10,000 books in year one (though of course that would be nice), it's to sell 1,000, and then 400 the next year, and then 1,500 the year after that, and ten years down the line have 6 books out there, selling x a year each of which you get most of the profit, and so forth. 

You still probably won't make a living, but you'll be making some meaningful bread off of your work, especially over time.

ETA oh, and self-publishing also has the advantage that IMO the stigma will disappear over time, and you'll want to control/own your work in that future market.


----------



## Sam Evren (Oct 29, 2013)

I think there's a shift taking place in the way consumers acquire goods. Whether those goods are books, music, or games, digital distribution is evolving beyond the point of their physical competitors. 

People are growing into a market of "See, Want, Now." It doesn't really matter if that's iTunes, the App Store (for any platform), Amazon's Kindle or Barnes and Nobles' Nook, or Steam (for PC games).

PC and Console games are going through this same question, traditional publisher vs. indie publishing. Except, of course, there's no stigma of "self-published." If anything, it's a banner of pride. That will probably fade in time, too. 

I'm not saying traditional publishers are going to fade away overnight, or in the next ten years, but simply that people, especially younger people born to this "See, Want, Now," culture aren't going to be nearly as particular about "who" put it up for distribution. The question is going to be "how" does it come to my attention.

Again, this is visible in something like the various App Stores, where apps or games are made by the millions only to languish---deservedly or not---beneath mounds of other works.

I think the real question now, aside from pride, is one of marketing with a side dish of meritocracy.


----------



## Chilari (Oct 30, 2013)

That's a good point, modern technology hasn't just changed the way we publish, it's changed the way we purchase too. You no longer need to physically travel to a bookshop and pay a person at a till for it, you can buy from your bed and read (almost) immediately.


----------



## Devor (Oct 30, 2013)

I think the big downside to self-publishing is how much people resist so many of the steps it takes to be successful.

If it's the drafting, or the feedback, or the editing, or the marketing, or the website, or looking for reviews, or the book blurb, or the cover art, or whatever else, I've seen people fight the ideas behind everything.

You can be very successful self-publishing.  And I understand when people have limitations surrounding money - that's not the point I'm making here.  But every step is a new set of skills and hurdles with a steep learning curve, and you've got to have some level of enthusiasm to get through all of them with some passing degree of professionalism.

I think maintaining that enthusiasm throughout the project is the biggest challenge for self-publishing.  My perception is that many people are only enthusiastic for certain aspects of the project, and end up losing steam along the way.

That's true to a point with traditional publishing, too, but I think there's more guidance through some of the more confusing steps, and that getting through the gateway steps of an agent or getting an advance boosts your enthusiasm a lot.

I'm not saying, at all, not to self-publish.  But just that if you do, make sure you know what you're in for and that you won't start to break down before you get to your goals.


----------



## GeekDavid (Oct 30, 2013)

Devor said:


> That's true to a point with traditional publishing, too, but I think there's more guidance through some of the more confusing steps, and that getting through the gateway steps of an agent or getting an advance boosts your enthusiasm a lot.



That's what this website here is for.


----------



## GeekDavid (Oct 30, 2013)

Chilari said:


> That's a good point, modern technology hasn't just changed the way we publish, it's changed the way we purchase too. You no longer need to physically travel to a bookshop and pay a person at a till for it, you can buy from your bed and read (almost) immediately.



That is one of the main reasons I went Kindle early (2nd gen e-ink, mostly because I never buy 1st gen anything if I can help it). The little town I am in has exactly one new bookstore, and that's not even a dedicated bookstore, it also sells movies and music and videogames and whatever else. If I wanted books they didn't have on the shelf I could either ask them to special order them or get them from Amazon, and Amazon was usually cheaper. Once the Kindle came out, the waiting time for shipping books disappeared, and I was hooked.


----------



## Devor (Oct 30, 2013)

GeekDavid said:


> That's what this website here is for.



That's absolutely right.  But still there's no fix for attitude and enthusiasm.

Let me talk about book covers, to avoid the more recent hot-button topics.

I've studied marketing, and I've done some photoshop projects before.  I'm not an artist, but when someone posts a book cover, I know enough that my first thought is always "How are my eyes tracking through this image?"  That's a question most people don't even know to ask.  We have a couple of experienced artists here, and others who have come and gone, who give far more valuable insights.  Yet, sometimes people resist the feedback - I don't mean that people just disagree, but that people don't even understand the feedback, and resist the idea that there even are underlying principles on which that feedback can even be given.

That's just an example.  Most people aren't too bad with the cover art because they know they aren't artists.  But there's a sliding scale of attitude to all of these steps - book covers are probably where people resist the least, critiques where they resist the most (admittedly, not without reason).

We can offer some guidance, but we can't easily offer something that will reshape your entire mentality towards the project, the way that finding a publisher can.  The drive needed for self-publishing has to come from you.  And it has to be strong enough to get you through each one of the hurdles, not just the first few.


----------



## Philip Overby (Oct 30, 2013)

I do agree that there seems to be more enthusiasm for certain parts of self-publishing that are "fun." I think that's why some writers don't reach the audience that they hoped for because they didn't put enough focus on a particular aspect. I believe if you're going to self-publish, you have to do so with the mindset that if you skimp on any part of the process, it could effect the overall success of your book.

If you don't want to pay a hefty fee for an editor, learn how to edit yourself. That or find a friend or critique partner who just happens to be excellent at fine-tuning your work. Steven King's best and harshest critic was often his wife.

For me, bad cover art can be a big deterrent. If it looks like someone threw it together in five minutes using GIMP, then I in fact DO judge a book by its cover. There are loads and loads of talented artists out there. Find one and see if you can work something out. If you do your own cover art, show it to people and see what their reactions are. If they're not so good, maybe you should keep tinkering at it until it's presentable. 

While I don't necessarily agree you have to spend tons of money to get the best results, you'll probably find more often than not that writers who have excellent covers and few issues with their actual writing probably spent some money to get that. I don't think that's always the case, but it probably is more often than not.


----------



## Stevenmlong (Oct 30, 2013)

> For me, bad cover art can be a big deterrent. If it looks like someone threw it together in five minutes using GIMP, then I in fact DO judge a book by its cover. There are loads and loads of talented artists out there. Find one and see if you can work something out. If you do your own cover art, show it to people and see what their reactions are. If they're not so good, maybe you should keep tinkering at it until it's presentable.



Agreed. I'm not there yet, but I've always figured that given the massive amount of time spent to write a book, it seems like the cover is a good excuse to find an artist you like and shell out some bucks for an original work of art that you use as your cover and, you know, hang in your office so you can say "yup, that's my cover."


----------



## Chessie (Nov 2, 2013)

Artists are always willing to help out another artist though. I've barely started writing my novel and I already have two artists interested in doing the cover for my book. One is a good friend of mine that's a successful local artist, and the other is a fantasy artist that used to work with my husband. The catch? Free yoga lessons.  So I have learned recently that when in doubt you can pay for something, offer services in return.


----------



## A. E. Lowan (Nov 2, 2013)

This article may also shed some light on why many self-published authors don't reach the audiences they hope for, and highlights the enduring importance of access to brick-and-mortar stores.

Study: E-books Settle In



> According to the survey, at the end of the second quarter of 2013, e-books accounted for just fewer than 30% of units and approximately 14% of sales, figures about equal to the fourth quarter of 2012.



Since the self-publishing boom was contingent on the Kindle Revolution for success, the fact that consumers are still purchasing the majority of their books in physical form makes it difficult for the majority of indies to compete.


----------

