# Dragons



## Tamwen (Sep 28, 2011)

I'm working on a dragonrider story right now, and I'm trying to figure out my dragons. Here is what I know:

I'm using Night Furies as a basic template, so to speak. So in my head, they have the same bodies and flat, triangular heads and such. No retractable teeth, though. 

They're animals. Very intelligent animals, but animals. They can understand language, both verbal and body language, and can communicate their feelings and thoughts effectively, but they aren't the kind of beings you can make formal treaties with or anything, and if they're wild, they can be very, very vicious. 

They are omnivorous, but prefer meat.

Male dragons are only slightly bigger than female dragons.

They take about a year and a half to become fully grown, and are capable of breathing fire by the time they're about a month old, though the power and intensity of the flames grows as they do.

They have lifespans comparable to humans, maybe slightly longer.

Their skin is leathery,and very, very tough. Their wings, however, are incredibly vulnerable, and if they're punctured, a dragon is pretty much toast.

In this universe, they're comparable to dogs in that they are man's best friend. However, after the elves took over, the situation became similar to that of the American Bison in the 19th century, with the elves trying to completely eradicate the dragon population to not only break the moral of the humans, but also to make it impossible for dragonriders to resurface.

Here's what I'm rather torn on. Their hide. When I first thought of the idea, it came with the scene of a young man stumbling on a mama dragon and her clutch. The mama dragon, who's being chased by elven hunters, grabs the guy and covers both him and her eggs, and camouflages herself, like a chameleon. The hide also shifts color in non-hostile situations with their mood, which is one of the ways they can communicate how they feel. 

Then, I was thinking about how people could tell the gender of dragons when they're newly hatched, and thought of the bioluminescent markings on the Na'vi of Avatar, and thought that might be rather interesting. Like... the size of the markings, or the general pattern, can point to whether the hatchling is male or female. They also change color with mood.

I like both, but I can't really choose which to use. One of my friends said they could work together, so I thought of a third option where hatchlings have the markings, and then as they grow older, those fade and their whole bodies are able to change color. 

Thoughts? Opinions on any of the ideas? Thanks in advance!


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## Kevlar (Sep 28, 2011)

At least you're doing something with elves and dragons that isn't common. I read one book where the elves had human slaves, but never a book where they were trying to irradicate dragons, or where dragons were chameleon like. I do have one thing to say about their bioluminscence.

In nature bioluminescence is caused by luciferin combining with oxygen and using luciferase as a catalyst (to speed up the reaction). The result is largely invisible in the light, but in the dark usually shows up as green, though I am aware that some ocean micro-organisms give off a blue glow. Also, interpretations of the anglerfish often show it emitting a white glow, though I don't know what the validity of this is. I'm not entierely sure on the details, but I don't believe animals can simply stop glowing all of a sudden, which might put your dragons at end with their camoflauging ability.

I'm not an expert on biology, but I do know it might be possible, and there could be examples of which I am not aware, for bioluminscence to take other forms. Perhaps a heat resistant being could do what neon lights do and emit an electrical charge into gasses, and in this case the product could be a variety of colours and could be turned off almost immediately. Each noble gas produces a different colour in such lights, though, neon itself produces an orange-red glow.

Another thing to remember is that a scaled up bird would not nescessarily be able to fly. The wings have to increase in size more than the body, so you might want to figure that out, because the modern audience is an educated (and sometimes miseducated) one.

A final note is flame, as you've already said yours breath fire. I know of a few theories on how this could work. Some use an ignition source, such as spark producing organs or 'teeth' in the mouth, or an electrical arc between two teeth with metalloid cores. These could use gasses such as methane from the stomach, hydrogen which would also help the dragon fly (saw this on a documentary), or a gas or liquid from a 'venom gland.' Another possibility is an oxidizing gas coming out of a gland.

Sorry for throwing biology in your face. I just believe that dragons are so standard that they need to be done good for them to work when they're outside the box. Not a bad start by the way.

(Wait 'til Ravana sees this. He'll give you three times as much info AND correct all the screw-ups I might have made  )


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## Tamwen (Sep 28, 2011)

Kevlar said:


> At least you're doing something with elves and dragons that isn't common. I read one book where the elves had human slaves, but never a book where they were trying to irradicate dragons, or where dragons were chameleon like. I do have one thing to say about their bioluminscence.



Yeah, I was reading those too. It's just... I've been reading SOOO many books were elves are all awesome and wise and amazing and so much better than humans and I was like, "You know what... NO! Elves are douchehats, and humans are gonna kick their butts.

And thus, my story came to be. /snicker/



> In nature bioluminescence is caused by luciferin combining with oxygen and using luciferase as a catalyst (to speed up the reaction). The result is largely invisible in the light, but in the dark usually shows up as green, though I am aware that some ocean micro-organisms give off a blue glow. Also, interpretations of the anglerfish often show it emitting a white glow, though I don't know what the validity of this is. I'm not entierely sure on the details, but I don't believe animals can simply stop glowing all of a sudden, which might put your dragons at end with their camoflauging ability.



Hmmm.... Maybe they always have the bioluminescent markings, but they change color with the hide? Or those are the weak points in the camouflage because they sparkle (ohgodTwilightflashback).

[quote[I'm not an expert on biology, but I do know it might be possible, and there could be examples of which I am not aware, for bioluminscence to take other forms. Perhaps a heat resistant being could do what neon lights do and emit an electrical charge into gasses, and in this case the product could be a variety of colours and could be turned off almost immediately. Each noble gas produces a different colour in such lights, though, neon itself produces an orange-red glow.[/quote]

... Okay yeah.



> Another thing to remember is that a scaled up bird would not nescessarily be able to fly. The wings have to increase in size more than the body, so you might want to figure that out, because the modern audience is an educated (and sometimes miseducated) one.



/nodnod/ I was thinking twenty feet long as far as body length, and... thirty feet or so for wingspan? I'm very bad at estimating length... /thatswhatshesaid/



> A final note is flame, as you've already said yours breath fire. I know of a few theories on how this could work. Some use an ignition source, such as spark producing organs or 'teeth' in the mouth, or an electrical arc between two teeth with metalloid cores. These could use gasses such as methane from the stomach, hydrogen which would also help the dragon fly (saw this on a documentary), or a gas or liquid from a 'venom gland.' Another possibility is an oxidizing gas coming out of a gland.



/nod/ I'll look into that. I've never really given much thought into how dragons breathe fire, but maybe I should...



> Sorry for throwing biology in your face. I just believe that dragons are so standard that they need to be done good for them to work when they're outside the box. Not a bad start by the way.



Thank you very much!



> (Wait 'til Ravana sees this. He'll give you three times as much info AND correct all the screw-ups I might have made  )



/squee/ I look forward to it!


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## mythique890 (Sep 28, 2011)

You could take inspiration from nature to differentiate the sexes: number of horns, males have extra long claws on their first digit on their forelegs, one sex is more colorful (like peacocks and other birds)... etc.

I like your take on dragons!  Sorry, my scientific knowledge of bioluminescence is sadly lacking, but I think it's a cool idea.    Even if it only showed up when they were in a dark place or at night, the picture  I see in my head is really, really cool.  How scientific do you want to be?  I also have dragons in my story (with a twist) but I'm not planning on going very much into the science of how they work, but my story is aimed at a YA audience, so generally less explanation is needed.  I also saw the documentary, though.  

I hope you don't mind me asking questions on your thread (if you do I can start my own ) but since we're already talking about dragons here, I was wondering:

How far could a fairly large dragon fly in a day?  Also, how large can dragons be before people start to roll their eyes (or what is a good size for a large dragon)?


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## CicadaGrrl (Sep 28, 2011)

The elf extermination factor is absolutely fascinating.  That is a great take.

I don't know much about bio glowing biology.  Biology at all.  I'm not sure that you need to justify why or how a dragon glows or the glowing fades.  They already breathe fire and are dragons in a land with elves.  Why are you trying to stick it to our world biology?  It isn't.  Come up with your world's biology.  As long as it is consistent, it is cool.

That said, I'm not sure why you are bothering with glowy stuff.  As suggested, there are a lot of simpler ways to identify sex--size.  Different colorations.  Etc.


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## Tamwen (Sep 28, 2011)

Because glowy stuff is cool Because the idea of glowy stuff was sort of there from the beginning, and I'd hate to let it go. I suppose it could be both, and the glowy bits only glow at night (like on Pandora...)


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## sashamerideth (Sep 28, 2011)

For telling gender at birth, just look at the genitalia.unless it is sheathed animals of that size would probably have relative sized genitals.  If you want to hide that away then give each gender a distinguishing feature as suggested earlier.

The choice of hides makes coloration difficult, maybe look at the chameleon methods and just scale them up.  Depends on how hard you want the fantasy really.  You have elves and dragons; do you also have magic?


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## Kevlar (Sep 28, 2011)

Tamwen said:
			
		

> Because glowy stuff is cool Because the idea of glowy stuff was sort of there from the beginning, and I'd hate to let it go. I suppose it could be both, and the glowy bits only glow at night (like on Pandora...)



The glowy bits only glow at night? That makes it easy. And if you want the dragons to be able to change the colour of that luminescence that's completely possible if they have multiple forms of luciferin and can choose which to release into the 'glowy bits' at any point in time. As aforementioned, I don't know the scope of colours that can be achieved by luciferin, but the chemical changes in composition with every organsim so in theory any colour is possible.

Remember that chameleons change colour not only to match their environment, but with their mood as well. I bring this up for one reason: if you don't want to use my idea of ionizing gasses to produce a plasma light I might. And I might if you do. I already have an idea for a sci-fi/fantasy on an alien world with completely alien biology and I think it'd fit perfectly. Anyway, such an ionizing organ under translucent/transparent skin could be affected by mood in such a case. For instance, red is a common warning sign in nature. If your dragon is angry he might release neon, for its orange-red glow, into these organs to show it. Perhaps being happy the dragon might emit argon, which produces a purple glow. Or they could simply choose which to emit, or whether to emit. Anyway, hope I'm not derailing the fantasy theme with science.

About wing to body size relation I have no idea. I might look into it.

Also, let me note, I am not saying you NEED to explain biology, I simply like to know what's possible before I create anything. If your dragons are magical that changes everything.

I won't get into sexual dimorphism because other people already have.


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## 98cafe (Sep 29, 2011)

sashamerideth said:
			
		

> For telling gender at birth, just look at the genitalia.unless it is sheathed animals of that size would probably have relative sized genitals.  If you want to hide that away then give each gender a distinguishing feature as suggested earlier.
> 
> The choice of hides makes coloration difficult, maybe look at the chameleon methods and just scale them up.  Depends on how hard you want the fantasy really.  You have elves and dragons; do you also have magic?



Thanks for ruining it for me.  Now every time I encounter a dragon in book, game, or film, i'm going to be wondering about the size of its genitalia.  Ugh!

Gotta say that I like the idea of elves being the enemies of both dragons and humans.  A very original idea, far from the stereotypical elf we see these days.   Sashamerideth brought up the point that was foremost in my mind as I read this thread.  Do dragons have magic in this world, or do you want to have a scientifically acceptable (by our standards) explanation for how they fly, make fire, glow, and change color?  One other thing to consider:  Who is telling the story, and is he or she capable of understanding the science behind a dragon's physiology?  A wise and ancient Mage passing off a dragon's abilities as unexplainable magic would be just as odd as a stablehand or farmer explaining the science behind bioluminescence and   combustible gasses.


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## SeverinR (Sep 30, 2011)

In nature one sex is larger then the other, 
ALot of the time females are bigger because they carry the load(egg) and defend it, where as the male is either out spreading his DNA elsewhere or just being the food provider. But in nature males are bigger then females too.

If colorful, I would say one sex would be more colorful then the other, and I would say it would be the smaller of the sexes. Male birds are colorful.  The dominant creature usually has the choice in mates, so the submissive thrives on being noticed, colorful.
I do like the mood color, it would be hard to hide their feelings if thier color betrayed them.  
"what I'm not jealous," he says as his red scales turning emerald green.

The ability to blend in is powerful especially for such a large creature.  You might consider a weaker offensive weapon if they have this defense. (give and take in nature) If they have both strong defense and offense they could become world powerful.
Hide from the army until its breath weapon could destroy whole armies even if they are prepared to fight a dragon.


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## Tamwen (Oct 2, 2011)

Revised List:

Dragons are just as intelligent as humans, capable of abstract thought such as thoughts of live and death, love, beauty, politics, etc., but incapable of speech. This incapability leads humans in general to believe that they are merely incredibly intelligent beasts (leading to the saying, 'Dragons are smart enough to speak and wise enough not to'), though once a rider spends time with a dragon, the fact that the latter is just as smart as the former quickly becomes obvious. Elves, on the other hand, think of them as nothing but wild beasts/vermin, and have gone on a massive killing spree similar to that of the American Bison in the 19th century, though this is mainly due to the fact that humans hold dragons in massively high regard, and their extinction would led to a huge hit to morale.

They are omnivorous, but prefer meat.

Female dragons are slightly bigger than male dragons, but male dragons have small spikes going from their shoulders to maybe halfway own their tail. Length is generally 20 ft for male dragons and 25 ft for female dragons. Wingspan is 40 ft for male dragons and 50 ft for female dragons.

They take about a year and a half to become fully grown, and are capable of breathing fire by the time they're about a month old, though the power and intensity of the flames grows as they do. Their flame is a semi-solid mass of acetylene/oxygen, which makes for very precise, explosive attacks. 

They have lifespans comparable to humans, maybe slightly longer.

Their skin is leathery,and very, very tough. Their wings, however, are incredibly vulnerable, and if they're punctured, a dragon is pretty much toast.

Females gain a protective ability when they about to lay eggs and the month it takes for the eggs to hatch. They can make their hide change color, similar to that of a chameleon. The ability becomes increasingly difficult over the course of the month, however, and eventually the hide remains in the default black. 

All dragons have bioluminescent markings that shift color in response to shifts of mood. This are particularly prominent at night, where they resemble stars. These give dragons religious importance, as humans believe constellations are the gods manifesting, and the highest honor a spirit can have is ascending and becoming a star. Dragons are considered to be the Hounds of the Gods for this reason.


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## KingArthur (Oct 7, 2011)

I've always have been of the mind that dragons should bee smarter than humans cause let's face it as a whole humans are dumb. Also dragons a are a fantastic creature and should be made as such and not just a large reasonably smart flying lizard. Also experiment with the idea of dragons like a dragon made of shadow or a dragon that is actually a planet. Ideas like these could make dragons fun again.


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