# 18. Jim Butcher Discussion



## Philip Overby (Oct 5, 2013)

So yeah, I got behind on these lately, but I'd like to start it back up. Number 18 is Jim Butcher, an author I like on multiple levels. I enjoy not only what I've read of his Dresden Files book, but I also love the story about how he came up with the Codex Alera based on a bet with a writer on a forum. 






If anyone here wants to dare me to make a best-seller out a crappy idea, go for it! 

Some say they're not fans of the Codex Alera, but I'd like to give it a try someday. It seems like a concept I'd be interested to see executed. 

I also like how he gives lots of writer advice in a way similar to Chuck Wendig. It's not dry or uninteresting, but just insight into how he thinks writing works. I particularly love his breakdowns of Scenes/Sequels.

In my opinion, Butcher is one of the more interesting writers out there. I like that he approaches fantasy with a sense of humor and that he seems like an all-around nice guy to boot.

Thoughts?


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## GeekDavid (Oct 5, 2013)

I have read all of Codex Alera, and I love it. The concept is very different from most fantasy, but he pulls it off with style and aplomb.

I haven't read Dresden Files yet, but I do have the first book languishing on my Kindle (thanks to the arm-twisting of my editor at Otherwhere Gazette, who's a huge Dresden fan), someday I'll get to it.


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## Philip Overby (Oct 5, 2013)

I lost the first book somewhere of the Dresden Files, but what I read I really enjoyed. I've kind of went back and forth on my enjoyment of urban fantasy, but this one nails it I think. If I were to recommend any sort of urban fantasy to someone, I'd start with the Dresden Files. I watched the Syfy show as well, but wasn't as into it as I was the book I read.


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## GeekDavid (Oct 5, 2013)

Phil the Drill said:


> I lost the first book somewhere of the Dresden Files, but what I read I really enjoyed. I've kind of went back and forth on my enjoyment of urban fantasy, but this one nails it I think. If I were to recommend any sort of urban fantasy to someone, I'd start with the Dresden Files. I watched the Syfy show as well, but wasn't as into it as I was the book I read.



That's one reason I like my Kindle... I never lose books. 

Seriously, you gotta try Codex Alera. And I mean soon.


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## Philip Overby (Oct 5, 2013)

Cool, seems like I downloaded a sample on my Kindle a while back (another reason I'm happy I have one, I won't lose books any more!) I have a long list of stuff to read, but I'd like to check it out.


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## GeekDavid (Oct 5, 2013)

Phil the Drill said:


> Cool, seems like I downloaded a sample on my Kindle a while back (another reason I'm happy I have one, I won't lose books any more!) I have a long list of stuff to read, but I'd like to check it out.



Too bad it's not loanable, or I'd shoot you my copy for 2 weeks. 

Hey, authors... *make your Kindle books loanable!* It helps spread the word!


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 5, 2013)

I've read all of the Dresden files and I really quite like them. I wasn't a big fan of the first one, but after some encouragement from a friend I gave the next one a try and haven't regretted it.
You probably shouldn't read too many of the books back to back as they'll get a bit similar after a while, I do recommend getting through the entire series though. Many of the story arcs run along several books and having read them all you'll appreciate them a lot more than just reading a single one somewhere in the middle of the series. The characters change and evolve throughout the books which is also nice to see.


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## Feo Takahari (Oct 5, 2013)

Codex Alera is the most intentionally awesome thing I've ever read, by which I mean that you can easily see the points when the author intends you to go "That was awesome!" The thing is, unlike a lot of authors who do that, he doesn't think awesome comes from a character doing something powerful. Rather, he approaches it as doing something intricate--carefully and methodically planning and executing a tactic to outwit, outmaneuver, or just plain baffle a more powerful foe--and in my own humble opinion, I think he's right on the money more often than not. I do think it gets a little creaky when 



Spoiler: spoiler



Tavi gets magical powers


--the tricks start leaning towards raw power and away from complex moving parts--but for what it's worth, I still kept reading through the final book.

Also, Kitai is one of the few tsundere love interests I can actually stand. "I wanted a horse  . . ."


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## Mindfire (Oct 5, 2013)

^ And that is just one of the things that makes the Codex Alera my favorite fantasy series _hands down_. I just wish there was more of it. There needs to be a sequel series. Or a prequel series. Or a video game. Something.


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## GeekDavid (Oct 5, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> ^ And that is just one of the things that makes the Codex Alera my favorite fantasy series _hands down_. I just wish there was more of it. There needs to be a sequel series. Or a prequel series. Or a video game. Something.



I would SO buy a prequel or sequel series.


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## wordwalker (Oct 5, 2013)

Intriguing. I'm just working my way through Dresden now, and enjoying how he uses somewhat straightforward battles somtimes every chapter or two, but keeps them fresh by finding new twists, handicaps, regulars to tie in with new arcs... Call it Fun Series strategizing, creative and not repetitive but not straining to be too smart. If Codex Alera gears the same mind up to more ambition, consider me hooked.

(Of course, my favorite line is still: "Noone likes a smartass, Dresden." "Are you kidding? _Everyone_ likes a smartass, as long as they're talking to someone else.")


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## GeekDavid (Oct 5, 2013)

wordwalker said:


> (Of course, my favorite line is still: "Noone likes a smartass, Dresden." "Are you kidding? _Everyone_ likes a smartass, as long as they're talking to someone else.")



That line right there definitely has me intrigued.


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## wordwalker (Oct 6, 2013)

GeekDavid said:


> That line right there definitely has me intrigued.



Humor's a great thing if you use it right. (So great half the stories written seem to be killed by its misuse.) The Dresden Files is one of the best at it, if you like it a bit thick but never interfering with the sense of impending doom. My other favorite exchange doesn't even have Harry in it:



> "Demons? Jesus, can you believe this?"
> "Actually, Jesus did believe in demons."



The first line is from a typical out-of-his-league cop. The second, delivered deadpan, is from a holy knight.


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## GeekDavid (Oct 6, 2013)

wordwalker said:


> Humor's a great thing if you use it right. (So great half the stories written seem to be killed by its misuse.) The Dresden Files is one of the best at it, if you like it a bit thick but never interfering with the sense of impending doom.



As I said earlier, I have the first book on my Kindle... maybe I'll make room for it in my reading list.


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## danr62 (Oct 21, 2013)

Ha, I'm currently re-reading the Dresden Files, and it is awesome! I've read all of them except the latest one, so I'll be finishing me re-read with that.

Then on to Codex Alera again.


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## servenvolley212 (Oct 21, 2013)

I'm a HUGE fan of the Dresden Files and Butcher as a writer. I think the Dresden Files belong up there with the Gentleman Bastards series, Sanderson's stuff, and the Kingkiller Chronicles.

I liked the Codex Alera a lot, even before I heard the origin of the series and how Butcher came up with it. That being said, it's still more YA and written on a slightly...er...lesser scale than his Dresden stuff. I love it for what it is, but I think it's more than fair to say it's not on the same level as the stuff mentioned earlier in my post.


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## C Hollis (Oct 22, 2013)

I tried Butcher a couple of years ago and didn't make it beyond the first book.  I really don't even recall the title.  I like his writing, but there were too many characters, in the book I read, that went through Soap Opera deaths (they are dead, but no wait!).

Just not my taste.


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## GeekDavid (Oct 22, 2013)

C Hollis said:


> I tried Butcher a couple of years ago and didn't make it beyond the first book.  I really don't even recall the title.  I like his writing, but there were too many characters, in the book I read, that went through Soap Opera deaths (they are dead, but no wait!).
> 
> Just not my taste.



That doesn't sound like Codex Alera, so it must have been one of his other series.

You might give Codex Alera a try, it really is good.


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## Steerpike (Oct 22, 2013)

I've only read his Dresden Files stuff. They're fun reads. I ran into him once and he seemed like a nice guy.


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## Steerpike (Oct 22, 2013)

GeekDavid said:


> That doesn't sound like Codex Alera, so it must have been one of his other series.
> 
> You might give Codex Alera a try, it really is good.



It's not the Dresden Files either, as I recall. Does he have another series going apart from those two?


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## danr62 (Oct 25, 2013)

I'm pretty sure that Alera and Dresden are his only two series. And none of those books had those fake deaths, as far as I can recall.


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## Renos (Oct 26, 2013)

I just started reading the Dresden files. I am walking into danger zone here. His books are so good and they can very easily influence you on the way of your writing.


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## Snowpoint (Oct 26, 2013)

He has a "steampunk" book series. I don't know if it has been released yet, but in interviews it sounds like there are more then one, or that he wrote it a while ago.

The Cinder Spires, apprenly no release date but 3 have been bought by publisher.


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## Darkblade (Nov 1, 2013)

I used to love the Dresden Files books but I feel that since Changes it's been spinning it's wheels and not really going anywhere.

I really wanted to like Codex Alera and I gave the first one a shot. 



Spoiler: Triggery reasons why I didn't like it



There are four major female characters in the book all with their own personalities, agendas and goals. This is good. Two of them are after their first conflict, captured by minor bad guys, deprived of their magic and repeatedly threatened with rape. One of the other's is almost accidentally date raped (it's his 'pokemon's' fault not his, that doesn't make it any better) by another major character and the last one is a love interest for the main hero.



While I've seen him do better in Dresden Files that just put such a bad taste in my mouth I don't think I'll give the rest of Codex Alera a try.


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## Mindfire (Nov 2, 2013)

Darkblade said:


> I used to love the Dresden Files books but I feel that since Changes it's been spinning it's wheels and not really going anywhere.
> 
> I really wanted to like Codex Alera and I gave the first one a shot.
> 
> ...



I don't know what Codex Alera you're reading, but the one I read doesn't have any rape in it. I think you might be reading a bit too much into things. 



Spoiler: Triggery reasons why I didn't like it



1. I think you're inferring threats of rape from what are actually threats of _violence_. You know, generic villain-y "Give us what we want, or else" stuff. 

2. I know the part of the book you're referring to, but that wasn't "almost date rape". Let me explain why. In the mythology of the books, the furies (pokemon) have elemental powers, which are sometimes linked with human emotion. Fire furies can inspire or _inflame_ emotions like joy, anger, and fear in others (a great power for politicians) and earth furies have the ability to inspire lust, which is what happened in the situation you're referring to. But here's the kicker: in neither of these cases can the fury or his owner manipulate those emotions if they aren't there to begin with. They can't conjure the emotions out of thin air, only influence what is already present. Bernard's fury didn't force Amara to want to have sex with him. She already wanted to. The fury was just encouraging her to give in to that desire because it thought Bernard was lonely. So if they did have sex, it would have been consensual, and thus not date rape. Spoiler Alert! Bernard and Amara get married later on in the series, which proves the attraction between them was genuine.

3. Don't give up on Kitai (the main hero's love interest). She becomes very important later on, not to mention badass.


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## Darkblade (Nov 2, 2013)

Spoiler: Further explanation



1) Threats of violence don't make any sense with the slave collars already on the water crafters. Regular violence would have no meaningful impact when they are being magiced into obeying everything Kord wants. Also it also is quite blatant that Odiana was raped when she was a slave previously and Kord continuously makes mention of rebreaking her. Even if we do assume that Kord really just intended to beat the women the magic items depriving them of their free will and the general oppressive atmosphere still feels too close to sexual violence for my taste.

2) It would not be fully consensual. It'd be more along the lines of getting a girl drunk or high in hopes of getting 'lucky' from her impaired judgment than roofing her into unconsciousness. Not the legal definition but not really on the moral up and up. Also I got the impression that she was closer to Tavi's age than Bernard's, that just might be a mistake on my part though.

3) I have no doubt that any of the characters aren't awesome in their own ways at later points in the series. In Dresden Files he showed an immense talent at making everyone their own personal shade of badass as different points in the series, especially the female characters. What I take issue with is that the one female character who doesn't have a near rape experience is romantically tied to the main character. It's a lesser issue but it still grates on me a little bit.


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## GeekDavid (Nov 2, 2013)

Darkblade said:


> I used to love the Dresden Files books but I feel that since Changes it's been spinning it's wheels and not really going anywhere.
> 
> I really wanted to like Codex Alera and I gave the first one a shot.
> 
> ...



If ya don't like it, you don't like it.

Many of us, however, including myself, absolutely loved those books.


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## GeekDavid (Nov 2, 2013)

Renos said:


> I just started reading the Dresden files. I am walking into danger zone here. His books are so good and they can very easily influence you on the way of your writing.



I just started _Storm Front_ myself. After pushing my way through two of Raymond Feist's latest that had so many technical errors that I suspect they were ghostwritten by high school freshmen, I need a change of pace.


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## Darkblade (Nov 2, 2013)

GeekDavid said:


> If ya don't like it, you don't like it.
> 
> Many of us, however, including myself, absolutely loved those books.



I'm not saying that you can't. I'm just stating my opinion on what I have read of the series.


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## GeekDavid (Nov 2, 2013)

Darkblade said:


> I'm not saying that you can't. I'm just stating my opinion on what I have read of the series.



For what it's worth, I agree with Mindfire. I think you're reading way too much into it. I've read books with actual child rape in them (the Night Angel trilogy), Codex Alera is nowhere near that level of darkness.


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## Steerpike (Nov 2, 2013)

I tried Codex Alera. Got a couple dozen pages in and stopped (I realized this when I found the first book on my shelf last night). Can't remember why - maybe I'll check them out again. I like the Dresden Files well enough.


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## Mindfire (Nov 2, 2013)

Darkblade said:


> Spoiler: Further explanation
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler: Further explanation



1) Fair enough. But I think it's important to make a distinction between your opinion on the text and what the text actually presents and says. The rape stuff is a product of your perspective and inferences, inferences that not everyone makes mind you, not the text itself.

2) I wouldn't even compare it to that. In the case you describe, there's no real interest on the part of the girl before she gets drugged and she likely doesn't know what's going on when she's doing it. As I previously stated, the attraction between Amara and Bernard was genuine. They got married later on. (And I got the impression she was in her mid to late twenties and he was in his early to mid-thirties.) Under different circumstances they might have had sex anyway without the fury's interference. You're also neglecting to mention that Bernard realized what was happening and ordered his fury to cut it out. Furies have some intelligence of their own, like pets, and can act without direct commands from their owner. So the situation wasn't Bernard's fault either way.

3) I am compelled to mention, in the interest of fairness, that the Kitai-Tavi romance doesn't really become a thing until later on either and develops quite naturally. I didn't even notice it in the first book at all, and I'm surprised that you did.


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## GeekDavid (Nov 2, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> I tried Codex Alera. Got a couple dozen pages in and stopped (I realized this when I found the first book on my shelf last night). Can't remember why - maybe I'll check them out again. I like the Dresden Files well enough.



I think you'll like it. Several of the recurring minor characters are quite interesting. One of them, in a later book, names his alien mount -- I think some sort of lizard but I could be mis-remembering -- "Steaks and New Boots" because of said mount's attitude.


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## Darkblade (Nov 2, 2013)

Maybe I was letting my own interpretation interfere with my memory of the text. Regardless I am curious to see how his forthcoming steam punk series shapes up.


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