# How the heck do Humans survive in fantasy worlds?



## Shadowfirelance (Mar 10, 2014)

How exactly do Humans survive in Fantasy worlds? They're not the smartest, nor the longest lived, nor are they the most powerful, How can they survive?
Any Opinions?


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## Ankari (Mar 10, 2014)

As the topic has no real world reference, anything listed would be conjecture, and a part of how authors build their worlds. I've moved this thread to the Worldbuilding forum.


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## Ireth (Mar 10, 2014)

Sheer stubbornness, IMO. And/or resilience.


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## wordwalker (Mar 10, 2014)

There's what I always say in classicist horror stories, where demons and devils are popping up everywhere with not a hint of God in sight: "Who do you think sent the heroes?"


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## thecoldembrace (Mar 10, 2014)

The human condition is to survive. Regardless of what most people think, we breed like rats... maybe not to their number but you get my drift... and in fantasy most worlds are set in the time before the green revolution and families bore lots of children to make up for those that would inevitably die before they got too old.
Humans are resilient, and highly adaptable. Our short life spans force us to innovate and learn quickly... something other races find to be a flaw.


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## McBeardstache the Hairy (Mar 10, 2014)

Well it depends on the setting, really. In Middle Earth, Men are the only race that isn't diminishing, and so succeed all the others. In the base DnD SRD, Humans are described as being masters of all trades. Basically, there isn't anything they can't do.
In terms of their short life-spans, that would also mean that they would mature and grow faster than other races, as well as propagate more rapidly. And even though humans aren't the smartest or most powerful, they're not the weakest or dumbest either. There's always someone worse. Humans are a nice middle ground kind of race, and can have loads of potential.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 10, 2014)

Humans are creative and adaptable. Hence why we spread all over the world except Antarctica before even developing agriculture.


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## King_Cagn (Mar 10, 2014)

We find strength in numbers, we might despise one another dearly as fellow humans but when you're that one race that the entire world is trying to eat or kill-off, all differences are set aside to take down a common enemy.


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## Wanara009 (Mar 10, 2014)

The same way we outcompete the megafauna and fellow primates and hominids: generalization combined with ingenuity and specialized social behaviour. A good reference material that I frequently refer to is Walking with Cavemen.


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## Queshire (Mar 10, 2014)

Ah, I love this question. The easy answer is the adaptability and propagation of humanity. I mean the average lifespan of your regular fantasy elf is what? 200 years at least? And how old is their culture? Yet the elves are only THAT advanced? I mean just look at what we've accomplished in 200 years. Elves may be smarter than humans, but they're less capable of either coming up with new ideas or implementing those new ideas.

Similarly, on average how much cultural diversity is there among Dwarves? How often are all dwarves the same? Now compare that to the cultural diversity of humans. If there's something that would cause culture X to die out a race with only a single monoculture would be hit significantly harder than a race with multiple various cultures. They can take the hit and keep going.

The same principle applies to not being limited to just living in the forests or the mountains. In real life humans can live and thrive on every continent except for Antarctica. Should the Yellowstone Super Volcano erupt killing off all the humans on North America, there's enough humans elsewhere that the species can continue.

The same adaptability, cultural, and technological evolution ability which allows us to live in just about every biome on Earth also allows us to adapt to macrochanges in the environment. Humanity HAS survived an ice age, multiple ones if you count the little ice age during ye olde medieval times. Now we have the whole possibility of global warming to deal with. You know that thing where the huge cataclysmic event tears through the fantasy world, reshaping the land and destroying all existing continents? Humans can adapt to that.

Finally, there's also the possibility of magic. Either Arcane or Divine magic. Humans are commonly portrayed as being able to use magic and, even if they aren't the best at it, that's another arrow in their quiver when it comes to surviving.


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## skip.knox (Mar 10, 2014)

The same question could be asked of the real world. We aren't the fastest, the best hunters, etc. We are vulnerable, especially before modern technology. So how did we survive? Answer that, and you will be well on your way to answering it for your fantasy world.

I'll put forward one: the ability to create and sustain complex social organization. The only other animals that can do this are certain insects, and they don't have our strength, size, etc. Our social organization (tribes) gave us the advantage over predators, big game, etc. Later, it gave us the ability to invent agriculture and not be so dependent upon game.

Fantasy worlds usually give human organization to non-human species (elves, dwarves), so that makes the OP's question all the more relevant. In Altearth I'm thinking of patterning at least one other species on insects, animal packs, pods, or other animal social groups. It could make for an interesting variation.


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## psychotick (Mar 10, 2014)

Hi,

I usually write my races as being roughly equal in terms of power with elves and dwarves having their own strengths and weaknesses while humans are somewhere in the middle. But I usually give them an organised military ability - i.e. armies, steel, and sometimes cannon, which makes them the most powerful of the three should it ever come to a fight. But it generally doesn't come to a fight which is the more important answer.

World wars etc are rare in my worlds. Which is why my fourth race (usually) the gnomes survive. After all they are generally weaker, not militarily blessed, and mostly survive by trading etc.

Also its useful to think about this in the context of where the races live. Elves by nature live in forests for me. That grants them certain strengths and weaknesses. On the strength side it means that their natural soldier will be a ranger of some sort. Fast moving, agile, and skilled with a long bow (pretty much the trope). But also only lightly armoured and not into formation attacks nor using heavy weapons. It also limits their population since there is only limited food production possible in a forest. Dwarves live in mountains - or under them - which gives them lots of natural rocky protectiveness. It gives them minerals to build powerful armour and weapons which with their strength they can use. But again there are no open land formation attacks, no horseback riding, and they're relatively slow over ground. Which means that archers and cannon would pick them off easily long before they could attack. And again they have limited food production in these regions limiting their population growth.

Humans are out in the middle, often literally as their lands divide the elves from the dwarves - which is good since they naturally hate one another - and they have both magic and technology, heavy armour and weapons and light, build walled cities if they need to, and have armies and tactics. If they wanderedinto a forest an fought the elves they'd lose. If they wandered into the mountains to fight the dwarves they'd lose. But out in their own lands they have home field advantage and would always win. And they have farms and orchards, harbours etc, in short plenty of food, meaning that they can grow more quickly as a population.

Lastly though, if the world is not continually at war why should any race be at risk of extinction?

Cheers, Greg.


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## chrispenycate (Mar 10, 2014)

Outbreeding them. Like rabbits. With enough healing magic to bring down death in childbirth and infant mortality by a half, a human community can double it's population before a dwarf or elf has reached adolescence. Cannon fodder, but also manufacturing — your swords may not glow at orcs, or proclaim your majesty and right to lead, but you've got lots of them.

And dwarves and elves are a bit territorial, but they're not particularly aggressive. Humans, particularly with a rapidly expanding population, are.


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## Snowpoint (Mar 10, 2014)

Human Beings are the rock stars of reality. We can do anything, or build something to do it for us. Until we get lazy...


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## Jabrosky (Mar 10, 2014)

psychotick said:


> Also its useful to think about this in the context of where the races live. Elves by nature live in forests for me. That grants them certain strengths and weaknesses. On the strength side it means that their natural soldier will be a ranger of some sort. Fast moving, agile, and skilled with a long bow (pretty much the trope). But also only lightly armoured and not into formation attacks nor using heavy weapons. It also limits their population since there is only limited food production possible in a forest. Dwarves live in mountains - or under them - which gives them lots of natural rocky protectiveness. It gives them minerals to build powerful armour and weapons which with their strength they can use. But again there are no open land formation attacks, no horseback riding, and they're relatively slow over ground. Which means that archers and cannon would pick them off easily long before they could attack. And again they have limited food production in these regions limiting their population growth.
> 
> Humans are out in the middle, often literally as their lands divide the elves from the dwarves - which is good since they naturally hate one another - and they have both magic and technology, heavy armour and weapons and light, build walled cities if they need to, and have armies and tactics. If they wanderedinto a forest an fought the elves they'd lose. If they wandered into the mountains to fight the dwarves they'd lose. But out in their own lands they have home field advantage and would always win. And they have farms and orchards, harbours etc, in short plenty of food, meaning that they can grow more quickly as a population.


Whenever I imagine a world that has multiple species like elves, orcs, and so forth, I too assign each race a preferred habitat. Typically I place humans in the tropical regions while giving the temperate and polar latitudes to the other races. Considering that the hominin lineage that led to _Homo sapiens_ stayed the longest in Africa before dispersing elsewhere (as opposed to the Neanderthals, Denisovans, and _Homo erectus_ whose ancestors left earlier), it makes the most sense to me that humans would start out as tropical creatures.

This also plays into how I physically differentiate humans from the other intelligent races. My humans tend to have leaner and more elongated physiques rather like those of Nilotic peoples in eastern Africa. This would have evolved to better dissipate heat, although I wonder if their proportionately longer legs would also give them a running speed advantage. In addition, my humans would have more robust immune systems than the other races as protection against tropical diseases.


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## Abbas-Al-Morim (Mar 10, 2014)

We breed like rabbits. In most Fantasy worlds, both the Dwarf and Elf species are on the decline. They have the gift of longer life, but for some reason they're not doing very well. 

For dwarfs, their troubles often come from an external source. Their holds and keeps are being overrun by beasts and monsters and lots of dwarfs die defending their ancestral homes. In LotR, you have the goblins and the balrog who took Moria and of course Smaug who took Erebor.

For elves, their troubles often come from an internal source. In the Eragon books, the elves don't have children very often. I think at one point the books mention how there are only two children in the entire capital. Is it any wonder the elves are getting close to extinction? In LotR the elves are simply world-weary and there's a mass exodus. 

So humanity's main competitors are both not doing very well and they're usually allied to humanity. Enemies like orcs, goblins, skaven and such are usually stronger than humans in one aspect, but much weaker in another aspect. E.g. orcs are really strong and tough but they're dumb. So you can easily lure them into a trap (enfilading fire) and then annihalite their forces.


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## Gurkhal (Mar 11, 2014)

Well, my take on is that while humans lack the magic of other races they are not limited by magic either and are good enough to compete in pretty much all fields anyway. For example if a forest would start to burn, the humans can run for their lives away from it. A nymph/huldra/skogsrÃ¥ would be magically tied to the forest and so while powerful within it she wouldn't be able to get away or adapt if shit would come down.

In my world, since we seem to be making references to our worlds, magic both empowers and limits and non-magical creatures like humans are not bound by magical rules, taboos, limitations etc. and so have a much larger freedom of action.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 11, 2014)

The answer to this question depends entirely on what style of Fantasy world are we talking about.

Most Fantasy settings feature the _Homo Sapiens_ as an important species, or even a _Chosen One_ style of species like it happens in the Narnia world.

Humans not only survive in Middle Earth but they rise to rule that world, and in the Harry Potter world the humans are capable of both technology (muggles) and magic (wizards and witches) and rule over other species such as Goblins, Dragons and Elves.

So, humans have no trouble to live and thrive in many Fantasy worlds... but now tell me, can humans survive in the world of Pandora from the _Avatar_ film, which is in many aspects a Fantasy world?

Simply breathing the Pandoran atmosphere is enough to cause a human to pass out and die within a matter of minutes, not to mention the many types of dangerous monsters inhabiting that world. Pandora is definitely a world where humans cannot live, and something similar would happen to humans in most of my own Fantasy settings:

In my Aylar worlds, human visitors would be affected immediately by the very thin air (even at sea level, it's like the air at an elevation of some twelve thousand feet in Earth), which would be enough to cause sickness and weakness to many humans. Add to that the severely cold weather, monsters and the Aylar inhabitants and you have a world that would be almost impossible for humans to survive and live in.

Anyway... are humans really different to Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits and others? According to some worlds they are all the same, just different races that belong to the same species.


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## Queshire (Mar 11, 2014)

Yes humans can live on Pandora because, well, in the movie they did live on Pandora thanks to their technology and Avatars. That's one of the biggest things that allow humans to survive anywhere. Technology is crucial for the survival of humanity anywhere outside of the the tropics. Yes, I am include stuff like clothes or making a fire out of two sticks under the heading of technology as it counts for stuff that artificially changes the environment to suit us or artificially changes us to suit the environment.


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## Saigonnus (Mar 11, 2014)

Jabrosky said:


> Whenever I imagine a world that has multiple species like elves, orcs, and so forth, I too assign each race a preferred habitat. Typically I place humans in the tropical regions while giving the temperate and polar latitudes to the other races. Considering that the hominin lineage that led to _Homo sapiens_ stayed the longest in Africa before dispersing elsewhere (as opposed to the Neanderthals, Denisovans, and _Homo erectus_ whose ancestors left earlier), it makes the most sense to me that humans would start out as tropical creatures.



I think restricting a race to a particular biome is silly; I always have. For *any* race to survive it would HAVE to be adaptable to the environment to a large degree, be able to live most anywhere, otherwise they would have died out long ago. To give an example: Imagine if elves are restricted just to forests and humans come through and burn/chase them out, driving them to the frozen north or into a desert... no trees at all... if they are not adaptable they would die.  

Another example of how silly it is: The availability of food in the underground (for example) is such that there would be NO way for a clan of dwarves to survive, much less thrive without some external source of food beyond trade (unless you have them eat rocks). You certainly wouldn't want your people to be beholden to anyone for the most basic necessities of your livelihood. If they aren't adaptable; they'd not understand and use the basic principals of agriculture. What if you drove them out the mountains... they'd die just like the aforementioned elves. It just seems silly to me.       

My elves and dwarves are just as adaptable as humans and can live anywhere they want to. They live longer sure, but also have a lower birth rate; every 3 to 4 years for elves, every 2 to 3 for dwarves, so the populations of elves vs. dwarves vs. humans is all about the same. I have a nation of tropical jungle/flatland dwelling dwarves that live in elevated, mud-brick huts and a clan of elves that live in the mountains that subsist on crops grown in tiered fields, much like Ancient China did with their rice patties. It just happens that they live there, not that I restrict them to that one particular biome. If the dwarves or elves get booted out for whatever reason, they'd be perfectly capable of surviving in a colder or warmer climate with only a slight disruption to how they do things. 

I guess the point of this is: Without adaptability to different types of climate, your race is doomed to failure, even if they are human.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 11, 2014)

I would leave advanced technology out of the question of _Homo Sapiens_ survival, because if you see things from that point of view, we could say that a super advanced civilization of humans (or space elves, maybe?) is capable of living inside a star simply because they have a starship with the capability to enter the sun and emerge intact later.

Without high technology humans would not survive in worlds with an incompatible atmosphere, extreme temperatures or maybe inhabited by truly dangerous wildlife, but most Fantasy worlds are very compatible with humans because they are often the most important species and the heroes themselves are human.

What would have happened if the air of Narnia had contained some twenty parts per million of Chlorine?

The Pevensies would have noticed immediately that there was something bad in the air, and it would have been just a matter of time for them to fall sick and eventually die because of the poisonous Narnian air.

I wonder why the composition of the air (and air density as well) are never mentioned in Fantasy stories... you can have a lot of fun with that =)


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## Queshire (Mar 11, 2014)

I disagree. First off, I do not believe that advanced technology or high technology is a useful category. All existing technology was advanced technology once upon a time. Wouldn't the internet be considered advanced technology in ye old fantasy medieval times? Furthermore all technology advanced or not is ultimately based off of an understanding of the natural rules of the universe and then gaming those rules to change ourselves or our environment to our own benefit. To me, discounting the technology in speculative fiction which allows a human to survive on a hostile planet is the same as discounting the technology and practices that have allowed natives to survive on the cold frozen tundra of Siberia for hundreds of years. I don't think I even have to use such an extreme biome as an example. Do you think you could survive where you live without the benefit of anything which could have been considered advanced technology at one time or another? Our mastery of fire was an innovation at one time. So were basic agricultural practices. Even the clothes on your back.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 11, 2014)

Well, by saying high or advanced technology I mean the kind of things that we see in Avatar or in Star Trek... technology that seems awesome from our 21st Century point of view, the stuff that would allow humans to create settlements in Mars or in some other planet incompatible with human life.

They do not have that kind of technology in most Fantasy worlds, but the humans living there do not need it to survive because these worlds are often very Earth-like and they do not present serious challenges to human life.

I think that another factor that is not considered about the survival in Fantasy worlds is the lack of antibiotics.

Without them, a human population would face a considerable difficulty to reach large population numbers and thrive... Survival in most Fantasy worlds would perhaps be similar to life in Earth centuries ago, except that there may be dragons and other monsters around.

I would not want to live in Middle Earth, Westeros or Narnia, that is for sure! XD


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## Queshire (Mar 11, 2014)

Fair enough. I understand what you're getting at, but I still do not think that it should be discounted. Martin Cooper, inventor of the cell phone, was inspired in the creation of the cell phone by the communicators on Star Trek. Advanced technology which has become real. Similarly, research is being put into making other advanced technology a reality. So since advanced technology is still a possibility, I think it's to early to discount them. 

But even with say, magic the premise of the thread is the survival of humanity in a fantasy world and since magic is a fact in that fantasy world it needs to be included in one's calculations despite not existing in real life.


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## Hainted (Mar 11, 2014)

IRL it came about because we are endurance hunters who eventually run any prey to exhaustion.

In Fantasy it's because Humans are the "_Mary Sues_. While other races are specialized creatures who can do one thing well, and have one or two physical advantages, they also have cultural stagnation, no diversity, and basically one personality type that describes EVERY member of the race( except one who will get his own book series detailing how he's different and all angsty about it). Humans can be anything, do anything, and have every personality type in existence and basically ALLOW the other races to exist because it showcases how awesome they are.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 11, 2014)

Just to have some fun, I came up with a scenario about a group of _Homo Sapiens_ trying to survive in one of my Aylar worlds.

They would be twenty people from an Earth-like world, and they would count on modern technology to help them survive in that alien environment. The setting would be a moderate altitude valley in Lallhalya, a nice, snowy mountainous landscape 6500 feet above sea level.

This is what they would need:

1- An elevation of 6500 feet in Lallhalya is roughly equivalent to 24000 feet in Earth. The human visitors would require a high-tech refuge built with pressurized air, temperature controls and windows made of a special glass to filter the dangerous sky radiation that is encountered at elevations beyond 5770 feet.

2- The refuge would need a constant supply of electricity to keep the air pressure and the temperature controls working. Also, they would require means to produce their own supply of food within the refuge.

3- To go outdoors, the humans would need portable oxygen tanks with breathing regulators like the ones used at the Himalaya in Earth. They should also wear complete suits made of dense black fabric and filtering glasses to protect their skin and eyes from the sky radiation. Another danger would be the constant cold and wind, sometimes cold enough to flash freeze a human.

4- Try to hide the settlement from the Aylars, because if they discover it, nothing will stop their attack.

Take a group of humans from an average Fantasy world like Middle Earth or Westeros, transport them to that same valley and they would drop dead in less than an hour.


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## Ireth (Mar 11, 2014)

Sheilawisz said:


> Take a group of humans from an average Fantasy world like Middle Earth or Westeros, transport them to that same valley and they would drop dead in less than an hour.



To be fair to the people of Westeros, they'd at least be used to constant cold, what with the winters that last 100 years and such. Then again, everything else you mentioned would kind of negate that advantage. XD


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## ThinkerX (Mar 11, 2014)

Towards the end of his 'Rift War' series, Fiest did have the MC's spend a substantial amount of time on a sort of 'alternate world' that had been 'demon-formed' I guess you could call it, with an atmosphere, sun, flora, and fauna lethal to normal humans.  They survived via a arduous polymorph. 

One of my few surviving fantasy worlds (most of the others got merged) is either Mars like or Venus like (the distinction is mute).  One of the few habitable area is either a chain of large basins (for the Mars like world) some 20 - 100 miles wide extending maybe a 600 - 800 miles.  Air at the bottom of these basins has about the same air pressure as earth at 10,000 - 12,000 feet.  For the Venus type world, this would be a series of linked, flat plateau's of about the same size projecting above the densest part of the atmosphere, above the toxic cloud layer.  These worlds would be botched or partial terra-formed planets, the work of the 'ancient aliens' for the projects they considered to be extremely dangerous.  The ancient aliens are gone, but a major Lovecraftian entity claims overlordship of sorts, and keeps the place semi habitable for reasons of its own.


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## Saigonnus (Mar 11, 2014)

Sheilawisz said:


> Just to have some fun, I came up with a scenario about a group of _Homo Sapiens_ trying to survive in one of my Aylar worlds.
> 
> They would be twenty people from an Earth-like world, and they would count on modern technology to help them survive in that alien environment. The setting would be a moderate altitude valley in Lallhalya, a nice, snowy mountainous landscape 6500 feet above sea level.



I have to say your example; while entertaining is just a matter of being selective about where you are using for comparison... It's like taking members of a sub-saharan african tribe and sending them to climb Mt. Everest or the North Pole... obviously they will need some technology to survive, shelters or whatnot. In that scenario, they would so far out of their element that they would die; simply from lack of know-how on creating even something so basic as shelter in the snow.  

I believe that if you take a group of average denizens of Middle Earth and drop them into a like climate (or even a climate within the range of "normal" human habitation) within the Forgotten Realms or drop them into Narnia, or Westeros and they'd likely be just fine adapting to the circumstances if not the technology of the world. Adaptation to the new is something Humans excel at, and I think it's something that isn't addressed well within fantasy.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 12, 2014)

Those sound like truly hostile worlds and a true challenge for human characters, ThinkerX.

I prefer the second world, the one with the huge plateaus that rise above a toxic atmosphere. The other world with the thin air at the bottom of the basins is intriguing as well... What is the weather like in those worlds? It's good to know that not all of our Fantasy worlds are human-friendly.

@Saig: To be more fair, I admit that the best scenario for human settlers to survive in Lallhalya would be at sea level. That would be much more tolerable as it's the equivalent of 12000 feet in Earth, the cold would be less dangerous and also they would not be exposed to sky radiation.

The best humans from Earth for this scenario would be Sherpas (I guess they would do pretty well), but there is a complication:

A settlement at sea level (in a forest, open field or the coast) would be very easy for the Aylar inhabitants to detect. The mountains would be a safer bet for the settlers, or at least, they could remain hidden up there for a much longer time.


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## Julian S Bartz (Mar 12, 2014)

I have to say that the discussion in this thread is fantastic. 

I think it is such an interesting question that is often overlooked in fantasy writing. 

Personally I think the key is that the majority of books tend to have their other races very defined and unique. When you have tall elves that live in trees, dwarves in mountain holds and goblins dancing around fires you tend to make them all reasonably similar. Sure some books may have different factions, or dark elves etc. But for the most part we write them as one type. In part because it can be hard enough to imagine another race other than humans, without creating multiple sub types of that race.

Humans are something the readers and writers are familiar with and are multifaceted through thousands of years of culture, readily available to us. It is easier for us to write about and to comprehend the various aspects of humans. Therefore the humans in our stories have all of the qualities that you have all mentioned which makes them survive. We give them more attention, more time because we can relate to them. We want them to survive because we are humans!

Perhaps the next move is to try and expand on the typical stereotypes that we place on other fantasy races.


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## Hainted (Mar 12, 2014)

I was in a discussion on these boards, and part of a panel at Mysticon that covered the lack of diversity in speculative fiction. Not just moving away from the "white  straight farmboy" protagonist, but why not ethnically and culturally diverse fantasy races as well? Dwarves(for example) don't have to be Nordic or have Scottish accents, nearly every culture in the world from the Zulu to the Cherokee have a race of small people that live underground. Why can't they be the basis for a fantasy race? why can't they be a new type of dwarf?


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## SM-Dreamer (Mar 12, 2014)

I think that I agree most with what Queshire said: adaptability. One of the things that has allowed our species to survive is our ability to adapt to most environments we come across. We don't need to evolve our species; instead, we evolve our technology and social structure to the best benefit. That, I think, is why humans survive so well in fantasy worlds. Whether humans come across elven magic or dwarven craftsmanship, humans are going to adapt to it and innovate on it. Its what we do.

And of course, we procreate so well. Even with disease and accidents, our reproduction rate seems to be higher than elves and dwarves in traditional fantasy, so we make up for a short life span with high birth rate. Even if only half of all births live, we're still generally producing more offspring than the rest of them.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 12, 2014)

Something that I really admire about human nature, and that I believe to be more important than adaptability and technological development, is the human spirit to survive.

There is a particular _something_ that pushes humans to face challenges, endure difficulties, seek a better life, cling to life in the middle of a disaster and even climb mountains simply because the mountains are there and they represent a challenge. That is what has really helped humanity to survive so many disasters and trouble, and without it, the adaptability skills would be of little advantage.

This human spirit to endure and survive is clearly seen in my story The Ghost, which is about these spiritual, body-snatcher aliens that invade and conquer Earth in the 2070's.

The cold and cruel Ghosts counted with very advanced technology and they had adapted to thousands of worlds, but they did not realize that the humans would not surrender so easily. The surviving human forces eventually fought back and recovered Earth, starting a new world.

Anyway, I disagree strongly with how Fantasy usually portrays humans as the best of the best while the other species are reduced to stereotypes... That needs to change in the world of Fantasy literature, and the addition of new, interesting species could help a lot to solve the problem.

Aylars have a nature that is similar to humans in many ways, but they are radically different in others.


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## Queshire (Mar 12, 2014)

Sheilawisz said:


> Something that I really admire about human nature, and that I believe to be more important than adaptability and technological development, is the human spirit to survive.
> 
> There is a particular _something_ that pushes humans to face challenges, endure difficulties, seek a better life, cling to life in the middle of a disaster and even climb mountains simply because the mountains are there and they represent a challenge. That is what has really helped humanity to survive so many disasters and trouble, and without it, the adaptability skills would be of little advantage.
> 
> ...



It certainly makes a better story than adaptation and technological development being responsible. As a writer, I can admire that view point, however in addition to being a writer I'm an armchair anthropologist and if I wear my armchair anthropologist hat instead of my hobbyist writer hat, I can't agree with that, not by itself.

I do not believe that the human spirit to survive is objectively exceptional enough to be considered a defining feature in Humanity’s success as a species. All life wants to survive, from the smallest bacteria to the largest whale. Plants don’t particularly want to die, neither does the pig whose flesh you eat for breakfast. I do not believe that the human spirit to survive is different from any other species. Facing challenges head on instead of backing down can be a result of wanting to get rid of a threat so you don’t have to face it in the future or protecting your territory and food source from being taken from you and thus being forced to seek out another, potentially less ideal, alternative. Enduring difficulties helps ensure that you survive long enough to propagate your genes. Seeking a better life can be seen as trying to obtain better conditions to ensure your survival or to increase your attractiveness to a potential mate, again to pass on your genes but with the added condition that it can potentially be passed on to your offspring thus improving the  chance that your genes continue on beyond you. Clinging to life in a disaster is the same as enduring difficulties. Climbing mountains can be seen as a cross between seeing what’s there with the possibility that what’s there is something which can help ensure the continuation of your genes (intellectually, yes, we know that no such thing is there, instinctually, perhaps not) and increasing your fame and, as a result, attractiveness to a potential mate.

In essence, in the equation for success and survival the spirit to survive is a constant, a baseline between all species. It’s the means to achieve that survival which determines the difference between humans and say, rabbits who survive by means of having a bunch of kids. Furthermore, if the means for that survival is not sufficient to the task then the will to survive becomes irrelevant. It’s the difference between coming up with an idea for a story and actually being able to write that story.


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## Lunaairis (Mar 13, 2014)

Hainted said what I was going to say about Us. We are/ were endurance hunters. A one point we were such masters a running we could have a race with a horse and once they would tigher out we would jump them. Not to mention we our muscles have a great capacity for holding energy, if we trained just a little any human could theoretically lift a car for an instant. Then with some breathing exercises we could hold our breath underwater of 10 minutes. There are different kinds of intelligence and ours lays in problem solving which is how we arrived at tools and technology, now. As you can see we are pretty well off.  (Most of this info I got from national geographics. I don't know the volumes you guys can google this info)  

We can work together and even though at times it may seem we are out to get rid of each other. If "twitch plays Pokemon "has taught the world anything is that even when there is a ton of people trying to stop humans from moving forward eventually we will move forward.  Which brings me to communication. Although we kind of have no way of testing this unless we were to have connections with another sapient creature. We are able to communicate, form bonds , friendships what ever you would like to call it not only with members of our own species but with other creature entirely. Our communication lead to taming wolves, domesticating cattle, and training birds. We know how to "talk."

Which brings me to telling lies which is more my own thinking and less research.  Being able to deceive is a sign of intelligence amung the animal kingdom. Koko the gorilla tried to blame her pet kitten for ripping the sink off the wall.  The lie was bad one, and language could have a factor in telling lies but who's to say humans aren't just really good at that?  We could trick elves into teaching us sacred magic. Or dwarves out of their shinny new armor. Maybe we told the other races that we have this super secret weapon that could wipe them off the face of the earth, and they are just incapable of seeing that, this was a lie. 

I used parts from all of this in making humans in comic, are fully capable of standing up against any other sapeint creature, with their insane endurance. Their ability to form friendships with other creatures and The ace up their sleeves: lying the shit out of almost any situation.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Mar 15, 2014)

I'll use RPG logic:

*Orcs* - big, strong, dumb, melee brutes - _shoot them._

*Dwarves* - short, stocky, miners - _seal the mine._

*Elves* - magic, flawless marksmen, live in trees - _start a forest fire._

*Halflings* - light weight - _toss them off a cliff._

*Humans* - big, strong, dumb, melee brutes, short, stocky, miners, magic, flawless marksmen, live everywhere, light weight, heavy weight, middle weight, highly intelligent, inventors, reproduce every two or three years on average instead of one kid per century or at a sorcerer's whim, infesting the planet, and _how the hell do you kill them???_


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## psychotick (Mar 15, 2014)

Hi Sheilawisz,

That's not really a fair example with regard to the fantasy realm. I would expect fairly much everyone to die there - elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, orcs - the lot. The question posed in the OP is how do humans survive in fantasy worlds against these other races?

Cheers, Greg.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 15, 2014)

That was excellent, Legendary, thanks for a good laugh =)

Greg, my point is that there is no wonder about humans surviving in Fantasy worlds. Most settings are very compatible with human life, and at the same time, the other species are portrayed as inferior to the glory of the _Homo Sapiens_ and incapable of competing against them.

I believe that this is a problem that needs to be addressed in the world of Fantasy literature, perhaps by introducing more challenging worlds and dangerous rival species that can get humans in trouble.

My own world Lallhalya would be seriously challenging (if not impossible) for humans to survive in, that's why I decided to use it as a good example. 

Do you know about other Fantasy settings that would be very hostile for human life?


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## Legendary Sidekick (Mar 15, 2014)

I'm joking, but the serious side is that humans are often portrayed as Joe Average in RPG stats. In stories, they're really that diverse group that has people who are like orcs, people like dwarves, people like elves, and even some people like halflings. (Another way to say this is that a story can work without the other humanoid races, because those are just altered humans.)



wordwalker said:


> There's what I always say in classicist horror stories, where demons and devils are popping up everywhere with not a hint of God in sight: "Who do you think sent the heroes?"


^This is my take on humans vs. supernatural forces of evil.


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## Hainted (Mar 16, 2014)

I actually brought this up in a post when I first joined, Legendary Sidekick. That if other sapient races existed beside humans, they would be as culturally, and ethnically diverse as humanity. The White Hat/Black Hat attitude towards other races didn't make sense to me anymore. I was accused of everything from destroying the uniqueness of the various races to being a liberal pushing a multi-cultural agenda to being told that other races could only be a certain culture and skin tone.


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## wordwalker (Mar 16, 2014)

Come to think of it, if other races have proper diversity, doesn't that mean that not *all* dwarves can hammer iron with their stoic chins? Each race might like to talk as if they all share their iconic strengths, and the heroes we notice among them might have them, but it's not quite as true.

In some worlds, anyway. In others they might be less diverse, or just better but slower-breeding, or be like Tolkien elves that really Are Just Better but being written out of the story by fate.


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## Ireth (Mar 16, 2014)

I like breaking stereotypes with my races. The Fae are caricatured as being cruel to humans, fiercely protective of their forests, and prone to infighting with each other. To an extent that is true, but the hero of Tenth Realm learns to move past that (well mostly), and make alliances with humans even past the necessity of imminent war, as well as asking forgiveness of those he tormented in the past. He is still protective of the forest, though. Some things never change.

Likewise, in the same story, the black-elves are regarded much the same as orcs are in a lot of fiction -- brutish, warlike, uncivilized, machines of pure destruction. Some are indeed like that, but I also have those who rebel against their mistress in the hopes of gaining a better life, and those who just want to raise their families in peace without being drafted into war. In short, my fantasy races are as diverse as my humans, as far as personalities go.


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