# Is it possible to have non-cliché dwarfs?



## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

NOTE: I don't have elves, orcs and other Tolkienesque races because I never liked them and I don't need them.

On TV Tropes there is a article titled OurDwarvesAreAllTheSame, but I don't agree that they are all identical.

What I subverted about dwarfs, this is just brainstorming, haven't included them in my settting.

- They are spelled dwarfs because I like this spelling more and its more grammatically correct
- Not all dwarfs have facial hair, its a matter of personal preference
- They don't trade with other races to get food and they are not a race of miners and blacksmiths, there are dwarfs that are shepherds and dwarfs that are farmers, merchants, woodworkers, carpenters, leatherworkers and so on.
- Mining ot blacksmithing is not the most common profession, the most common profession is being a shepherd or a goatherd.
- Some dwarfs are employed by human kings to work as professional artisanal miners.
- They don't have Scottish accents and aren't drinking beer more than other races.
- They are supposed to represent a race of little people rather than the mythological dwarves.


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## Dark Squiggle (Dec 12, 2017)

Read terry Pratchett's _Thud, Fifth Elephant, Guards , _or any other of his_ Discworld _books that include dwarves and _try _ to ask that question again.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Dec 12, 2017)

^Good answer.


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## Devor (Dec 12, 2017)

Nowadays when I think about the "cliche" dwarf, all I can think is, _other races really don't drink enough._


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## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

Devor said:


> Nowadays when I think about the "cliche" dwarf, all I can think is, _other races really don't drink enough._



Is your avatar a firebird?


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## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

Dark Squiggle said:


> Read terry Pratchett's _Thud, Fifth Elephant, Guards , _or any other of his_ Discworld _books that include dwarves and _try _ to ask that question again.



Discworld is not my type of fantasy.


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## Russ (Dec 12, 2017)

Ask Heitz, who makes a very good living writing about just that.

And I never for a moment have thought they have Scottish accents.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 12, 2017)

Yes,


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## Insolent Lad (Dec 13, 2017)

There are so many directions one might go with the basic concept of smallish subterranean dwellers, whether one styles them 'dwarfs' or not. H.G. Wells's morlocks could be considered a rather extreme take on the whole dark elf/dwarf tradition. I've mentioned dwarfs in passing but never used them in my writing until the current novel (The Ways of Wizardry, out Jan 6). Mine are, essentially, descended from pockets of neanderthals that had hidden away. Environmental factors have diminished their size a bit (standing about chest-high on 'normal' humans).

So their character and culture derives from that origin. Very tribal and distrustful of outsiders. Secretive. Do they drink more than others? No. In fact, though I haven't worked this in (yet), I suspect they would not handle it well and might tend toward alcoholism. Can't decide on that one and don't need to at this point. But I have thrown in some of the traditional traits just so they do seem like dwarfs; otherwise, I might as well have called them something else.


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## Annoyingkid (Dec 13, 2017)

The ideal scenario is to  have a direction you want to take them in and write to that while having any subversions come organically. Instead of starting with the typical dwarf and setting out to systematically changing their stereotypical traits one after the other. To subvert them without it seeming reactionary to what the majority have done.


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## K.S. Crooks (Dec 17, 2017)

Watch Willow.


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## Corwynn (Dec 17, 2017)

I recall a webcomic called _Digger_ by Ursula Vernon. It's very entertaining, you should give it a read. Anyway, while Dwarves are never seen, only mentioned in passing, it is clear that they have some non-stereotypically Dwarven features. For example, they patch up their non-structurally sound architecture with liberal applications of magic, and their language includes click sounds like certain African languages. Ironically, the Wombats, one of whom is the main character, are culturally more Dwarven than the actual Dwarves in the setting.


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## Bruce McKnight (Dec 18, 2017)

With most stereotypical races (dwarfs, elfs, orcs, or anything else), I think the cliche serves as a quick and easy way to help people know what you're talking about. When you say dwarf, I think mountain and mining, when you say elf, I think woods. There's room for tweaking, to be sure, but if you change everything that makes it what it stereotypically is, then why not call it something else?

If you saw dwarf and it's not subterranean, mining, drinking, bearded, and Scottish-accented, then it might be more work for you to explain to readers that dwarfs are so different instead of just calling them something different and avoiding a lot of preconceived notions that you have to change.


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## Russ (Dec 18, 2017)

Okay, somebody has to help me.  Where does the Scottish accent come from?


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 18, 2017)

Russ said:


> Okay, somebody has to help me. Where does the Scottish accent come from?


I blame Brann Bronzebeard.

I'm sure that's wildly inaccurate, but that's beside the point.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Dec 18, 2017)

From Gimli, maybe? Is his accent Scottish? I can't really tell.


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## Devor (Dec 18, 2017)

A quick google search suggests it started with a popular book in the 50s and has been a D&D trope ever since - and it may also have something to do with Scotland being known in Britain for its mines and multiple similarities to the Noremen where the dwarves came from.


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## D. Gray Warrior (Dec 25, 2017)

I have a couple of ideas for dwarves. One is a minor aesthetic/visual detail where dwarfs based their leadership on beard length, so the ruling dwarf and usually the oldest dwarf, has the longest beard that can drag behind them like a tail or a cape. Everyone else has to stay several feet back to avoid stepping on his beard out of respect for the leader.

The main idea I have been toying with are dwarf nomads, where they are similar to real world nomads and practice herding animals, but also happen to be good blacksmiths and often hire themselves out as mercenaries to defend whatever town they happen to stop in.


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## skip.knox (Dec 25, 2017)

In reply to the OP, in a word: yes.
What is the follow-up question? That's where the interest lies.


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## shangrila (Dec 25, 2017)

It depends on how much of a deviation you want to have.

The ideas you gave above are fine, but if you stray too far with any of the commonly used races people will just wonder why you didn't create a new race yourself.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jan 3, 2018)

First the answer to the heading: Yes, but once you call a people dwarfs or dwarves, you are fighting headwinds. It’s similar with orcs... but orcs are interesting because you could just as well call orcs Nazis, terrorists, Imperial Stormtroopers, etc. So, it depends on the level of cliche one looks for.

So much depends on definition... I have a wild multitude of races based on alternative lines of evolution with “magical” genetic manipulation by beings called “gods”. There is a culture (short-mannish, but not a “race”) who hang in the mountains, but they could just be Swiss? Heheh. I nibble around the edges of classic races. Culture is heavily influenced by natural resources, and their mountains supply ore, so mining is common. Most of these Kingdomers live outdoors, but a large % commute under the mountain to work and worship, as the religion requires pilgrimages to the eight primary shrines of the relgion, all of which are located on/in eight peaks in the mountain chain.


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## bdcharles (Jan 6, 2018)

I think GRRM hangs a lampshade on this pretty neatly, by having Tyrion Lannister as a run-of-the-mill person with something like achondroplasia. What are the options? Tolkienesque/fairytale-esque dwarves with ruddy cheeks and a penchant for real ale (for which I salute them), general dwarfism, or what? It depends what you want your dwarves to do, or to symbolise. If you want non-cliché dwarves, you may have to do without the ready-made signifiers, cultural references and atmosphere that such characters bring. What about another type of person that happens to be small, like a race of diminutive bank clerks?

Or something...


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## Mythopoet (Jan 6, 2018)

Sigh. I really wish people would get it through their heads that "cliché" is entirely in the mind of the writer/reader.


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## Peat (Jan 7, 2018)

Devor said:


> A quick google search suggests it started with a popular book in the 50s and has been a D&D trope ever since - and it may also have something to do with *Scotland being known in Britain for its mines* and multiple similarities to the Noremen where the dwarves came from.



That's news to me. South Wales, yes, Yorkshire & Northumbria, yes, Cornwall, yes, Scotland...? I'm sure they had some because everywhere has some, but I've no idea where.

If there's any cultural associations in Britain that'd tie in deeply with Scots & D&D Dwarves being similar, its probably a reputation for being homicidal alcoholics. Not a nice stereotype to have about your neighbours, but heavily ingrained never the less.

edit: Oh. And miserly/money obsessed.


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## Gurkhal (Jan 14, 2018)

Of course you can have original Dwarfs. Although to be honest I'd ask that if you want to add such an iconic fantasy race as the Dwarfs and you're not planning on following convention with them, maybe another race or a culture of humans would work just as well? 

The big thing I see with breaking convention is that there's alot of reader expectation tied into, for example, what Dwarfs are about and so breaking the convention to hard means that I don't really understand why the Dwarfs were included in the first go. Better then to try and get something that don't carry as much luggage with it.


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## StepIntoTheRoad (Jan 15, 2018)

Gurkhal said:


> The big thing I see with breaking convention is that there's alot of reader expectation tied into, for example, what Dwarfs are about and so breaking the convention to hard means that I don't really understand why the Dwarfs were included in the first go. Better than to try and get something that don't carry as much luggage with it.



Gurkhal's statement is what I thought when I read the title of the thread. Sure you can make them different but if you're going to do that jump in with two feet and make something with no baggage. This concept of calling them something else was mentioned before by Insolent Lad:



Insolent Lad said:


> H.G. Wells's morlocks could be considered a rather extreme take on the whole dark elf/dwarf tradition.



More recently than H.G. Wells, the Walking Dead did something similar. They don't call them zombies they call them something else. Given, I don't know what they call them because I only watched a few episodes of the show, but whenever I call them zombies in front of an avid fan I get chastised so I know they're zombies but not called zombies. So unless you want to inherit some of the stereotypes, you might consider calling them something else.


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## Saigonnus (Jan 22, 2018)

I personally agree with much that has been said. IF you call them "dwarves" or "dwarfs" etc... then unfortunately, in my opinion, you have limited yourself to a more traditional depiction of the creature. Even if they are farmers, sheepherders or whatever, there is still that expectation of at least SOME of the stereotype being present. If you don't include it, then it might turn the reader off to your work. 

Perhaps give the race a new name, and change the appearance enough that it isn't a "dwarf" anymore, but something entirely different. 

For me, I tend to think of as many facets of the race that I can. Culture, Attire, Religious beliefs (if any), Construction, Transportation, Trade and Commerce, Magic (if capable), Enviroment, Family/Societal structures, Government and whatnot. Recognizing the "dwarven" stereotypes helps me to not use them for the races I construct, unless of course I WANT to use them.


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