# Avoiding Racist Implications



## Ireth (Mar 24, 2013)

I've discovered an issue with the enemy hordes in my latest project. They're svartalfar, or black elves, from Norse mythology; their enemies are ljosalfar, or light elves, as well as Fae and humans. Much like in Tolkien's books, the light elves are fair-skinned and beautiful, while the black elves, analogous to orcs, are black-skinned and misshapen. The primary villain is (tentatively, somehow) half light elf and half black elf (I guess that'd make her a grey elf?), and her right-hand man is also her half-brother, a light elf bound under oath to serve her.

I don't have as much of a problem with my half-breed villain, or her lieutenant being of a race that is probably seen as Always Lawful Good -- it's the hordes of mooks I take issue with. Even Tolkien was uncomfortable with the idea of orcs being Always Chaotic Evil, and I find myself shying away from that with my black elves as well. But the fact remains that they fundamentally oppose the light elves, they're being ordered to kill the people of Faerie and conquer the land, and they're nothing more than sword fodder. What can I do with this?


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## Jabrosky (Mar 24, 2013)

Does it have to be a difference in skin color? Maybe hair or eye color could work instead.


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## Ireth (Mar 24, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> Does it have to be a difference in skin color? Maybe hair or eye color could work instead.



I'm just going by what the original myths say. I'm sure there are differences in hair and eye color as well, but the biggest one is the skin.


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## glutton (Mar 24, 2013)

Can the heroes just realize that the black elves aren't all necessarily super evil, that they might have families and people they love too, but are just 'enemies'? Maybe show a black elf sacrificing themselves for another at some point.


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## Ireth (Mar 24, 2013)

glutton said:


> Can the heroes just realize that the black elves aren't all necessarily super evil, that they might have families and people they love too, but are just 'enemies'? Maybe show a black elf sacrificing themselves for another at some point.



That could work. ^^


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## Devor (Mar 24, 2013)

I've really no idea.

But my first thought, hoping to avoid massive rewrites, is to maybe explore the origins of the dark/light split and to highlight some degree of choice causing that divide.  As a culture, that would give them agency in their fate, rather than paint them as solid, undiluted villains of chance.  Again, I've really no idea if that would be enough for people or not.


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## Ireth (Mar 24, 2013)

Devor said:


> I've really no idea.
> 
> But my first thought, hoping to avoid massive rewrites, is to maybe explore the origins of the dark/light split and to highlight some degree of choice causing that divide.  As a culture, that would give them agency in their fate, rather than paint them as solid, undiluted villains of chance.  Again, I've really no idea if that would be enough for people or not.



According to what I've found so far, light elves and black elves are completely different beings from completely different worlds; the divide is really not a choice of allegiance so much as a racial barrier. Light elves come from Alfheimr, and black elves come from Svartalfheimr, two of the Nine Realms in Norse mythology. Black elves are often conflated with dwarves in the myths.


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## Graylorne (Mar 24, 2013)

I think your translation is too literal. Svartalvar are dark elves, not black. I see that 'svart' translated as 'swarthy' and picture them more like coal miners, leathery and stained from working underground, than like black beings.

NB: Besides, there is only one mention of them in the Edda's, so much of their existence in conjecture. It is thought they were originally spirits of the air. (Perhaps divided in day and night?)


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## Ireth (Mar 24, 2013)

Graylorne said:


> I think your translation is too literal. Svartalvar are dark elves, not black. I see that 'svart' translated as 'swarthy' and picture them more like coal miners, leathery and stained from working underground, than like black beings.



Dark elves are dokkalfar, and I think they're another thing altogether. They're often confused with svartalfar, though.


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## Graylorne (Mar 24, 2013)

You were too fast . I added an NB above. 

I believe both are the same thing, actually.


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## Ireth (Mar 24, 2013)

That could be.

What does NB stand for, anyway? XD


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## Devor (Mar 24, 2013)

Ireth said:


> Dark elves are dokkalfar, and I think they're another thing altogether. They're often confused with svartalfar, though.



You're following it that closely?  When I was researching it, I found that all of those terms were used pretty much interchangeably, or the poets would pretty much pick any two for the context of their story.  And there were several claims about what belongs in the set of nine realms or not.  I think you've plenty of leeway with what you want to do if you were to explore their origins.


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## Graylorne (Mar 24, 2013)

I've tried to find the same info for my Shardheld books, but its all very murky. Those poets lived hundreds of years later and the truthworthiness of their work is less certain than believed.

My svatalves btw are very pale, smallish, and with pitch black hair.


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## Ireth (Mar 24, 2013)

Devor said:


> You're following it that closely?  When I was researching it, I found that all of those terms were used pretty much interchangeably, or the poets would pretty much pick any two for the context of their story.  And there were several claims about what belongs in the set of nine realms or not.  I think you've plenty of leeway with what you want to do if you were to explore their origins.



Well, at this point I'm still trying to figure out exactly what I want to do as far as enemy races go. As I've mentioned in other threads, this is an adaptation of a LOTR crossover RP, and I decided to go back to the very roots Tolkien took inspiration from for his books, while avoiding some things that Tolkien really codified, like orcs. Although, as I said above, my svartalfar serve much the same purpose anyway.


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## Graylorne (Mar 24, 2013)

Ireth said:


> That could be.
> 
> What does NB stand for, anyway? XD



NB = Nota Bene, we use that as we add something later.


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## Ireth (Mar 24, 2013)

Graylorne said:


> I've tried to find the same info for my Shardheld books, but its all very murky. Those poets lived hundreds of years later and the truthworthiness of their work is less certain than believed.
> 
> My svatalves btw are very pale, smallish, and with pitch black hair.



Your ideas make sense. I can see the camouflage purposes of dark skin for an underground race, but logically it seems like they'd be more bleached-out and pale instead. ^^


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## Graylorne (Mar 24, 2013)

I had to think of Alberich, the smith in Wagners Rheingold. Then you get something like this


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## Nihal (Mar 24, 2013)

Heh. I've also got an elf-like race that dwells underground. I've made them pale too, and kinda hairless compared to their cousins. They're "crooked", bestial from a human point-of-view and might be blind as well. You know, the typical modern underground-beasts features.

Now, my elves (elven ancestors, actually) aren't all fair-skinned. Their skin color has the common wood tones, cinnamon and darker colors being regarded as more beautiful. They're rarely blond, the lighter hair colors being ivory-tinted instead. Well, I almost inverted the typical elves characteristics between those two sub-races, and I think it's ok if it works for your world. Myths aren't sacred, they're sources of inspiration. It's ok to change them if necessary.


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## Feo Takahari (Mar 24, 2013)

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but outside Tolkien, weren't the "llight" elves brown-skinned blondes? (See: _The Moorchild_, _Tithe_, etc.)


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## Ireth (Mar 24, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but outside Tolkien, weren't the "llight" elves brown-skinned blondes? (See: _The Moorchild_, _Tithe_, etc.)



I haven't read The Moorchild in quite some time, and I've never read Tithe, so I'm not too sure.


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## Jamber (Mar 24, 2013)

There's always that interesting moment in LOTR (the film version -- I haven't read the books in a long time) when Saruman is telling his army how the Rohirrim stole their lands and drove them into the hills. It's meant to be Saruman using his powers of persuasion to incite hatred, but it opens a parallel (and unacknowledged) story: that underneath the present rule is an older usurped one.

Not sure this gives you any ideas, but I always found the idea fascinating.


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## advait98 (Mar 25, 2013)

I'm not sure I understand.

If you're searching for a way to avoid your black elves seeming evil for no reason and give them a reason to fight the light elves... It should definitely not look like the difference in skin tone is the reason for their hatred. There are a lot of other ways that can happen. Individuals can spark a full-fledged animosity between two ethnic groups. A misconstrued accident maybe, that turned the groups against each other. Certain legends which have sparked feuds between them for all eternity... There are many reasons two groups can be against each other, the real world is a gold mine for conflicts too, I should imagine...  Bah, this is all off the top of my head, I'm sure you have thought of better, that is, if this is the issue.

If you're trying to avoid your black elves looking too much like the stereotypical crazy African, well I don't think that matters. Black and white have always been the grounds of evil and good and I don't think the real world stereotypes can figure into this.

Frankly, I'm not sure whether I've addressed your problems (I always had trouble understanding certain questions), but if I have, I hope you find them satisfactory.


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## Ireth (Mar 25, 2013)

advait98 said:


> I'm not sure I understand.
> 
> If you're searching for a way to avoid your black elves seeming evil for no reason and give them a reason to fight the light elves... there seem to be a lot of ways that can happen. Individuals can spark a full-fledged animosity between two ethnic groups. A misconstrued accident maybe, that turned the groups against each other. Certain legends which have sparked feuds between them for all eternity...  Bah, this is all off the top of my head, I'm sure you have thought of better, that is, if this is the issue.
> 
> ...



Well, the roots of the conflict between them, at least in this instance, are pretty straightforward: these particular black elves are sent through a gateway between their homeland, Svartalfheimr, and the land of Faerie, to attack a human settlement and enslave anyone they find. The light elves are friends of the humans in the settlement, and they have also temporarily allied themselves with the normally-neutral Fae to face the common threat. But that isn't the problem, it's the implications of skin colors I'm worried about.


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## Feo Takahari (Mar 25, 2013)

At the risk of completely missing the point, why do you need to mimic the old stories? I can't see any reason why your evil elves can't be green-skinned or blue-skinned or any-skinned you want.

(Though really, I think Glutton had the right of it--just write your enemy elves as human beings--er, elven beings--rather than as caricatures, and the rest will take care of itself.)


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## Ireth (Mar 25, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> At the risk of completely missing the point, why do you need to mimic the old stories? I can't see any reason why your evil elves can't be green-skinned or blue-skinned or any-skinned you want.
> 
> (Though really, I think Glutton had the right of it--just write your enemy elves as human beings--er, elven beings--rather than as caricatures, and the rest will take care of itself.)



It's really a matter of *want*, not *need*, but I do see your point. ^^


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## Steerpike (Mar 25, 2013)

Ireth said:


> It's really a matter of *want*, not *need*, but I do see your point. ^^



Yes, if your interest is is the old myths, then I can understand why you want to stay true to them. Also, it will impact readers. If readers are interested in your stories because they like the old myths as well, and you're true to everything except your evil elves are suddenly blue, it will seem silly, in my opinion. I suspect a lot of readers would feel that way if they were attracted to the story out in part out of interest in the underlying mythology you are using.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Mar 25, 2013)

Ireth said:


> I've discovered an issue with the enemy hordes in my latest project. They're svartalfar, or black elves, from Norse mythology; their enemies are ljosalfar, or light elves, as well as Fae and humans. Much like in Tolkien's books, the light elves are fair-skinned and beautiful, while the black elves, analogous to orcs, are black-skinned and misshapen. The primary villain is (tentatively, somehow) half light elf and half black elf (I guess that'd make her a grey elf?), and her right-hand man is also her half-brother, a light elf bound under oath to serve her.
> 
> I don't have as much of a problem with my half-breed villain, or her lieutenant being of a race that is probably seen as Always Lawful Good -- it's the hordes of mooks I take issue with. Even Tolkien was uncomfortable with the idea of orcs being Always Chaotic Evil, and I find myself shying away from that with my black elves as well. But the fact remains that they fundamentally oppose the light elves, they're being ordered to kill the people of Faerie and conquer the land, and they're nothing more than sword fodder. What can I do with this?



Well... how about _not _making them Always Chaotic Evil villain stereotypes? Is there any reason they need to be? Is there a reason they can't be, you know, just people who happens to be on the other side of the conflict? 

I mean, maybe they have an opressive goverment and an unpleasant ideology, and maybe their cultural values are very different, but do they have to be _intrinsically evil _as a race? What purpose does that even serve?



Graylorne said:


> I think your translation is too literal. Svartalvar are dark elves, not black. I see that 'svart' translated as 'swarthy' and picture them more like coal miners, leathery and stained from working underground, than like black beings.



Actually, "svart" literally means black in Icelandic, Swedish and Norwegian, and has similar words in related languages. (Danish "sort" and German "schwarz.") It refers both to the color black and to black people.



Ireth said:


> Well, the roots of the conflict between them, at least in this instance, are pretty straightforward: these particular black elves are sent through a gateway between their homeland, Svartalfheimr, and the land of Faerie, to attack a human settlement and enslave anyone they find. The light elves are friends of the humans in the settlement, and they have also temporarily allied themselves with the normally-neutral Fae to face the common threat. But that isn't the problem, it's the implications of skin colors I'm worried about.



Well, that's why you don't write an entire race of dark-skinned people as intrinsically evil monsters. 

I mean, sure, Tolkien kinda got away with it, but I've always considered that to be one of the weakest parts of his writing: That there are no orc women or orc babies or orc farmers, and that they don't seem to have an actual culture that doesn't involve dressing in spiky armors and murdering people.

There is nothing wrong with saying: "These guys all have black skin", provided they are portrayed as morally varied individuals who are just trying to do what is right in their minds, even if that happens to include the occasional genocidal war or whatever. You can have them be cruel and warlike, as long as they'e not _just_ that. 

It's when you go: "These guys all have black skins and all of them are objectively evil" that you may have a problem on your hands. Not because you are actually trying to get some sort of racist sentiments across, but simply because that concept is pretty outdated and in itself sorta offensive to our modern sensitivites.

(For that matter, if you look at norse mythology, it's not like there were a clear team of good guys and bad guys respectively. The Aesir could be right bastards at time, and while the giants were "the enemy", they weren't that much different - they threw parties, got married, honored agreements, etc.)


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## Ireth (Mar 25, 2013)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> Well... how about _not _making them Always Chaotic Evil villain stereotypes? Is there any reason they need to be? Is there a reason they can't be, you know, just people who happens to be on the other side of the conflict?



Well, they're basically stand-ins for orcs. This story is an adaptation of an RP that's a crossover with LOTR, but then I decided I really liked a certain character and his arc, so I decided to reshape the story into something I could publish without getting sued.



Anders Ã„mting said:


> Well, that's why you don't write an entire race of dark-skinned people as intrinsically evil monsters.
> 
> I mean, sure, Tolkien kinda got away with it, but I've always considered that to be one of the weakest parts of his writing: That there are no orc women or orc babies or orc farmers, and that they don't seem to have an actual culture that doesn't involve dressing in spiky armors and murdering people.



Just because they weren't seen doesn't mean they weren't there. Mordor had whole fields of fertile farmland used to feed his human servants, which the characters who travelled through there never got to see, but that doesn't negate their existence. Same with dwarf women, and by extension, orc women and children too. Orcs make babies just like humans and elves do, so there HAVE to be women somewhere.



Anders Ã„mting said:


> There is nothing wrong with saying: "These guys all have black skin", provided they are portrayed as morally varied individuals who are just trying to do what is right in their minds, even if that happens to include the occasional genocidal war or whatever. You can have them be cruel and warlike, as long as they'e not _just_ that.
> 
> It's when you go: "These guys all have black skins and all of them are objectively evil" that you may have a problem on your hands. Not because you are actually trying to get some sort of racist sentiments across, but simply because that concept is pretty outdated and in itself sorta offensive to our modern sensitivites.
> 
> (For that matter, if you look at norse mythology, it's not like there were a clear team of good guys and bad guys respectively. The Aesir could be right bastards at time, and while the giants were "the enemy", they weren't that much different - they threw parties, got married, honored agreements, etc.)



Very good points. ^^


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## brokethepoint (Mar 26, 2013)

> Well, the roots of the conflict between them, at least in this instance, are pretty straightforward: these particular black elves are sent through a gateway between their homeland, Svartalfheimr, and the land of Faerie, to attack a human settlement and enslave anyone they find. The light elves are friends of the humans in the settlement, and they have also temporarily allied themselves with the normally-neutral Fae to face the common threat. But that isn't the problem, it's the implications of skin colors I'm worried about.



I would lean more toward lawful then chaotic.  I am getting the impression they are organized, if you look at most cultures that have had large scale slavery they tend to be large, organized and advanced.  They utilize slavery to perform tasks that they have determined to be menial.

Now when you look at the dark elves, where are they in the overall picture.  Are they the masters, or just another tier in the hierarchy.  How are the slaves treated, can they earn or buy their freedom like you could with the Roman Empire?  While slavery is wrong that does not necessitate the perpetrators as being innately evil.

While in fantasy you do not need to follow the same things that apply, but if you look at skin color it is based on geographic region and the absorption of vitamin D.  Generally the colder and cloudier the climate the lighter the skin color, the hotter climate with clear skies tend to have darker skin color.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 26, 2013)

While we're on the subject on unfortunate racial implications in our stories...

I have in the works a short story about a former Texan sheriff who joins the cause of an African kingdom resisting British invaders. At the moment he's more or less a 19th century Captain Ersatz for Robert E. Howard's Solomon Kane, but I hope to portray the African characters more sympathetically than the ones in Howard's stories (the sheriff even gets an African girlfriend to fight alongside him). However, I still wonder if having a white guy fight on behalf of black people could come across as a stereotypical "mighty condescending white savior".


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## Feo Takahari (Mar 26, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> While we're on the subject on unfortunate racial implications in our stories...
> 
> I have in the works a short story about a former Texan sheriff who joins the cause of an African kingdom resisting British invaders. At the moment he's more or less a 19th century Captain Ersatz for Robert E. Howard's Solomon Kane, but I hope to portray the African characters more sympathetically than the ones in Howard's stories (the sheriff even gets an African girlfriend to fight alongside him). However, I still wonder if having a white guy fight on behalf of black people could come across as a stereotypical "mighty condescending white savior".



Ultimately, it's an issue of power--is the one guy who's white mysteriously more powerful than every single black person? (In general, I'm not that fond of protagonists who completely dominate the world around them--in a sufficiently large conflict, the protagonist should be one of many people, contributing to the fight, but not doing everything himself.)


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## Nihal (Mar 26, 2013)

My default reaction is to think that yes, it's condescending. But I guess it's bias. It's _how_ you write it that matters.

It's not so unbelievable to have a foreigner participating in a war that's not about him. You can take Giuseppe Garibaldi as an example. He was an italian revolutionary who sailed to Brazil and ended fighting in a brazilian war that could be called The War of Tatters, he even took a brazilian wife during this time, the awesome (yes, I love this story ;x) Anita Garibaldi. They lost this war. But it wasn't the end, Garibaldi kept fighting in random wars around the world as he did before meeting her, now with Anita by his side.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 26, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> Ultimately, it's an issue of power--is the one guy who's white mysteriously more powerful than every single black person? (In general, I'm not that fond of protagonists who completely dominate the world around them--in a sufficiently large conflict, the protagonist should be one of many people, contributing to the fight, but not doing everything himself.)


I'm pretty much writing the story as I go, with only very sparse mental outlining, so I can't really answer that yet. He does start out the only character on the Africans' side with firearms, but they're only pistols.


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