# Dwarves



## King Raven Stark (Apr 26, 2012)

What is it about Dwarves and mining/crafting?

Thank you


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## Christopher Wright (Apr 26, 2012)

Well, in Norse mythology they were miners I believe, or at least they were craftsmen. Tolkien used a lot of Norse mythology in Middle-Earth, and his imprint is pretty hard to shake loose.

Not sure how they wound up being Scottish, though. That one makes absolutely no sense.


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## Queshire (Apr 26, 2012)

I'm not sure if they were exactly miners in norse mythology,  but I do know that just about all of the norse god's best toys were made by the dwarves.


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## King Raven Stark (Apr 26, 2012)

ok thanks from King Raven


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## shangrila (Apr 26, 2012)

Yeah, I think the modern interpretation comes from Tolkien. He's pretty much the trope maker of most fantasy races.


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## Saigonnus (Apr 26, 2012)

In traditional fantasy, thier size and stature are conducive to living in holes in the ground or beneath the ground and what types of resources for trade are available there? Metals, gems and the like are the first things that come to mind. Their bone density equals strength and crafting is a good way to make money using that strength (and even lends extra strength). Traditionally, they are non-magical (spell-casters) but deeply magical beings who imbue the strength of their race into their crafts.

Every traditional fantasy race almost by necessity have to be craftsmen/artisans of some type and usually only the medium changes. I suppose for a change you can have them take on a more elvish role, short but leaner and living beneath the sky and working with wood and instead of stone and metals (though elves are known for working with metals too on a lesser scale), and I would think they'd excel at any craft they put their minds to, even if not traditional to fantasy. You could have them form and shape natural crystals into scuptures or talisman that are sold to the elves for enchanting or blessed by their own clerics/shaman to religious icons.  

Humans are often depicted as craftsmen too, though in comparison much of their goods are inferior to the crafting of elves or dwarves. How many books do the characters meet a brawny, bald-headed blacksmith in a singed leather apron? Many times from the books i've read. Trade is an important part of life and has been through man's history and as such a race needs something to trade to provide those things they cannot provide for themselves or luxuries they normally couldn't afford.


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## Queshire (Apr 26, 2012)

Fun fact: In the original Norse mythology, Dwarves were created from the maggots infesting Ymir's corpse, in the earliest stories were described as being as tall as men, though they quickly took on their now common shortness, and had a good grasp of magic, being able to phase into stone and knowing magic runes.

In my WiP, Dwarves have a communist style society, are born in magical cloning vats, and wear magical power armor. Their shortness is mostly a result of not getting any excercise instead relying on their armor. Instead of being scottish, my dwarves are russian!


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## Ophiucha (Apr 26, 2012)

The Dwemer in the _Elder Scrolls_ series are a lost society who invented steam/soul-powered robots and giant spinning blades in their staircases that kill me even when I'm wearing the best armour in the game. Given the general crafting abilities of the rest of the world, I would say they are still the "advanced craftsman" archetype, just a bit further than most stories. I'd mostly blame Tolkien for it, since he popularized all of the archetypes, but dwarves certainly haven't gotten the range of variety we've seen in elves, dragons, and other mythic beings. After all, Our Dwarves Are All The Same.


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## Jabrosky (Apr 27, 2012)

The question I ask is what kind of environment would select for the evolution of dwarves in the first place? If you look at our world's populations of relatively short people, they tend to live in tropical rainforests, not mountain ranges in the temperate zone. How come you never see jungle dwarves?


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## Ireth (Apr 27, 2012)

Evolution is one issue, certainly, but a lot of the fantasy I've seen tends toward creation instead (whether poly- or monotheistic doesn't seem to matter), with Dwarves being their own race rather than a shorter kind of human. Tolkien had Aule create the Dwarves, for example, and Pratchett had another god responsible for the ones in his Discworld mythos (the name of the god escape me at the moment, though Tak springs to mind).

Each of these creation myths has a distinct reason that the Dwarves are the way they are. Tolkien's first Dwarves were made of stone, and therefore they and their descendants forever had an affiliation with the substances of earth. Pratchett's first Dwarf, according to the Dwarfen mythology put forth in one of his most recent books (perhaps _Thud!_) was created alongside the first human, and the Dwarf's first action was to walk under a ledge of stone, "and thus he achieved the correct height, and became endarkened." The human, however, walked under the open air, grew too tall, and became enlightened.


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## Queshire (Apr 27, 2012)

What -I- want to know is why you never see half-dwarves!


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## Mindfire (Apr 27, 2012)

Queshire said:


> What -I- want to know is why you never see half-dwarves!



In Prince Caspian, CS Lewis introduces a character named Doctor Cornelius, a shortish old man who serves as royal tutor to the titular Prince Caspian. Cornelius mentions that he himself is a half dwarf, and that half-dwarves have become common under the reign of the Telmarines due to some dwarves intermarrying with humans to hide in plain sight. 

So actually, you do see half-dwarves. I wonder if Lewis came up with that idea as a logical response to his good friend Tolkien's half-elves.


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## Hans (Apr 27, 2012)

Queshire said:


> What -I- want to know is why you never see half-dwarves!


Seems like dwarfes are not just an other human race, they are a different species and thus don't mix.

What I don't like about standard races like dwarves, they always seem to be a "one culture race/species". Know one dwarf know all. Why has a species, depicted older than humans most of the time only brought up one single culture? Or two if the author feels adventurous.
Why are only humans allowed to have diversity?


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## Christopher Wright (Apr 27, 2012)

Because we're lazy, and 90% of the time a single race of dwarves will do the trick.


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## Steerpike (Apr 27, 2012)

Hans said:


> What I don't like about standard races like dwarves, they always seem to be a "one culture race/species". Know one dwarf know all. Why has a species, depicted older than humans most of the time only brought up one single culture? Or two if the author feels adventurous.
> Why are only humans allowed to have diversity?



You can do it any way you want, but typically, as I've seen it in Fantasy worlds, this is one thing that sets humans apart, both for better or for worse. The fantasy races like dwarves and elves are generally depicted as being much more ancient than humans, and having been created as an embodiment of some aspect of the world that is reflected in their nature. There isn't much deviation in the race because they don't have the capacity to deviate. There's nothing wrong with that presentation. Humans, on the other hand, are generally portrayed as being much shorter-lived, sometimes shown expanding like a plague, with a much greater capacity or even a necessity for the kind of variation and adaptation not shown in the other races.


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## Ireth (Apr 27, 2012)

It always seems to be the Dwarves that are the most homogenous as a race, for some bizarre reason. Even elves often get more diversity, though not always as much as humans. Tolkien had several different groups of elves -- Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri, Sindar, Avari, and possibly others which I can't recall off the top of my head. The ElfQuest comics and book have forest elves, desert elves, and possibly others as well (it's been a LONG time since I've read the comics).

Dwarves almost seem to encourage their homogenous identity to an absurd degree in some canons. Heck, Pratchett's Dwarves are sexist, and get uppity if the females show themselves as such rather than blending in perfectly with the males! Any Dwarf woman who defies that is seen as a radical feminist.


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## Queshire (Apr 27, 2012)

So how should we avoid this monoculture, or should we avoid it?

In my WiP normal Dwarves are magical power armor wearing communists, Halflings are Amish Dwarves, and Gnomes are dwarf-elf hybrids. I'm thinking of having a scavenger type society as well, but I'm not sure. Since I have communist dwarves, I suppose I have to have boisterous gun totting American-inspired dwarves as well.


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## Mindfire (Apr 27, 2012)

Queshire said:


> So how should we avoid this monoculture, or should we avoid it?
> 
> In my WiP normal Dwarves are magical power armor wearing communists, Halflings are Amish Dwarves, and Gnomes are dwarf-elf hybrids. I'm thinking of having a scavenger type society as well, but I'm not sure. Since I have communist dwarves, I suppose I have to have boisterous gun totting American-inspired dwarves as well.



Or boisterous gun-toting American _elves_. They could be a group that emancipated themselves from the prissy, uptight British elves who tried to tax them into oblivion. xD


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## Queshire (Apr 27, 2012)

Nah, my American Elves would be overly plastic sugery-ed, shallow, elitish snobs.


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## Mindfire (Apr 27, 2012)

Queshire said:


> Nah, my American Elves would be overly plastic sugery-ed, shallow, elitish snobs.



Constantly opposed by their rival faction: the raving racist genocidal snobs.


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## Hans (Apr 27, 2012)

Queshire said:


> So how should we avoid this monoculture, or should we avoid it?


There are obviously a lot of readers who like it. Or else this trope wouldn't be so prevalent.
You will not enthrall me with a homogeneous dwarfen culture. But that is just one less possible reader.


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## Jabrosky (Apr 27, 2012)

Hans said:


> There are obviously a lot of readers who like it. Or else this trope wouldn't be so prevalent.
> You will not enthrall me with a homogeneous dwarfen culture. But that is just one less possible reader.



Are you sure readers actually _like _the idea of monocultural dwarves? I always thought monocultural races were the product of laziness or lack of imagination rather than an actual preference for homogeneity.


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## Hans (Apr 27, 2012)

Jabrosky said:


> Are you sure readers actually _like _the idea of monocultural dwarves?


No, I am not sure.
I can only see that there are a good amount of books that have this and readers as well as critics are fine with it.


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## Saigonnus (Apr 27, 2012)

I myself prefer multifaceted races and have used different "cultures" within a race in my game world. I had nocturnal Elves that worshipped the moon, others that lived in the depths of the desert and rode lizards for mounts. I even had some that were psionic in nature. For dwarves I had those that lived in their own cities (above ground, below ground or wherever), some that were renegades from their own culture and interminged with the other races in their communities; they were by and large merchants and tradesmen of various types. I also had some that lived in the forests, and had the capability of cultivating crystals for crafting, but could work with wood just as well as anything else. I even had dwelfs; crossbred dwarves with elves, but truthfully never really got that deep into their culture or how they interacted with the other races beyond both races tended to hate dwelves.


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## Steerpike (Apr 27, 2012)

Hans said:


> No, I am not sure.
> I can only see that there are a good amount of books that have this and readers as well as critics are fine with it.



I'm certain that there are plenty of readers who like it just fine, given the amount of books that include it and do just well.

But you shouldn't use these types of dwarves, or not use them, based on that. Use them according to how the best fit with your vision of the story.


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