# I need cover design help



## Caged Maiden (Jan 5, 2016)

Hey scribes!

I'm not a digital artist. I don't know the first thing about photoshop or gimp, or even paint. I'm pretty much inept at it all. NO I'm COMPLETELY inept. 

So I have a cover, but I want to see what I can do with digital art. Would anyone help me with this project? Last year, I posted a cover that was half done, and some nice folks tinkered with it briefly, and they did some pretty cool stuff in a few minutes. Do we have any talented folks here who would lend me their time and help me design some covers?

Thanks, I appreciate it. I can post an example of what I have, if it would be helpful. The painting is rather large and meant to be scanned and shrunk to make a standard paperback cover. Right now, I have digital pictures of the painting.  This was an experiment to see what I could come up with in 20 hours, and I'm just about finished, but it's just a picture, not a cover. I'm not really sure how to make a cover, nor what makes a good cover. It's entirely possible I've completely wasted my time, but I'm okay with that. I'd just like to talk with someone who understands more about cover design than I do, because I can't seem to understand what makes a cover exciting and tempting to a reader.


----------



## Nimue (Jan 5, 2016)

Well, I don't know a whole lot about cover design (beyond the old axiom "I know what I like"), but I have some experience with digital art and graphic design.  I'd like to see your example, at least, and I hope I could help, depending on the scale of the project.


----------



## Caged Maiden (Jan 5, 2016)

Hey, that'd be awesome! Do you want me to email it to you?


----------



## Nimue (Jan 5, 2016)

Sure! Do you still have my email, or do you want me to pm it to you again?


----------



## Caged Maiden (Jan 5, 2016)

Here's what I have so far. I've included the borders, which won't be part of the cover. Anyways, hope that gives you an idea, though it isn't finished.


----------



## Caged Maiden (Jan 5, 2016)

I would appreciate a PM. I can send you the pics people edited for me, because I think they're a better picture of what's in my mind to go on. THANKS!!


----------



## Nimue (Jan 5, 2016)

Excellent!  That's a really lovely painting.  Didn't expect that level of architectural detail, but it's cool!

Making this into a cover wouldn't be terribly difficult, beyond the application of a template.  It does depend a little on what you want to fall onto the back, spine, and front cover.  The skull-placard motif might be a little large to put on the spine.  Again, I don't think it'd be too difficult to put anything anywhere, with a little resizing, because there's plenty of blank space, but in the future it might be a good idea to set out to draw within the dimensions of a typical cover template.  (I imagine Amazon might have something like that?)  Er, assuming that's not already what you've done.

Off the bat, it'd be a good idea to adjust the color and contrast, restore some of what the scanner's no doubt taken away.  A little more red and blue would help, because at the moment it's mostly beige.  The window on the left might need some tilting to get back on the level--assuming this is a flat scanning and not a photo?  Maybe some experimentation with a subtle filter or two.

Obviously, I know zilch about cover design, but I think this is definitely something to start with, and not wasted time--even if it ends up being a sketch or practice for the end product.  Cover art is so important, after all.  And that aside, it's a fine-looking piece of watercolor!


----------



## Caged Maiden (Jan 5, 2016)

yeah, it's a photo from my digital camera, so not scanned, and not flat, HA! I think the spine would be solid colored, maybe black? And I don't have a placement for the title or anything, I just wanted to see what kind of art I could do on my own, to set as a benchmark for any artist I might hire in the future.  I hoped they might be able to salvage my own attempt and add some digital flair. Thanks for weighing in.  I emailed you the other inspiration ideas I had a year ago, so hopefully that will help you see what I was going for.


----------



## MineOwnKing (Jan 6, 2016)

If you post an ad on devianart you can get it done real cheap.

Even if your budget is $50.00, someone will want to do it. 

There are very specific sizing requirements for book covers.


----------



## Chessie (Jan 8, 2016)

Hey girl, PM me about your needs. I've been working through some cover designs for the past 8 months or so. I'm not terrific, but maybe I can come up with something that might help you out. I have a few samples if you'd like to see what I've done. Anyway, let's chat.


----------



## Caged Maiden (Jan 9, 2016)

Wow, the more I look at Alchemy, the more I love her stuff!! She's amazing!!! I'm really inspired to try some digital art, just for concept work. I downloaded seem free photos from free images.com, and I'm going to work on this a little more, not because I can't or won't pay a real artist, but because my mind is so sketchy about what I'm even looking for, it'd help me be a better communicator to just play with it a little and at least understand what's possible. 

Thanks so much!!!

I'll let you guys know what I come up with, so I can get some opinions on what looks good and what my ideas are conveying. That's the hardest part if you ask me--understanding what certain images convey to other people.


----------



## MineOwnKing (Jan 10, 2016)

I'm looking at premade cover designs now for my short story.

I've used deviantart in the past, and also Damonza. Damonza was expensive but I got ebook and print versions, plus poster files for two of my novels. 

Today I'm looking at a website called 'The Book Cover Designer.'

I'm seeing really decent premade covers for as low as $24.00

That's incredibly cheap. I wish I would have known about it before.


----------



## ascanius (Jan 23, 2016)

Caged Maiden said:


> Hey scribes!
> 
> I'm not a digital artist. I don't know the first thing about photoshop or gimp, or even paint. I'm pretty much inept at it all. NO I'm COMPLETELY inept.
> 
> ...



This sounds fun.  I have a few questions.  what is the focus, what do you want the reader to grasp about the book simply by looking at the cover.  What is the book about, and how does the cover fit into it.


----------



## psychotick (Feb 5, 2016)

Hi,

Didn't he have a sword before?

Never mind. First what you've provided is roughly the right size and shape for a full cover - front and back cover and spine. If you just want a front cover as you would for an ebook you're going to have to crop it - pick the interesting area.

The other thing I would say is it needs some drama. Your cover gives an idea of genre (ish) basically historical but not necessarily fantasy or anything. You could try playing with the colours with a programme like Photoscape - which is the simplest and most powerful free photo editor out there - to create mood. Or you could add something like a bloody sword or an effect. And never forget the value of a good title / font.

Best advice, go to the top sellers in the genre your books, stare at their covers, see what they're doing, and emulate them.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## psychotick (Feb 5, 2016)

Hi,

Ok, had a bash at it using Photoscape filters. Darkened the base of the photo, deepened the top for more vibrant colour and sharpened it a little. Gives it a little more drama. But it really needs something more.








Cheers, Greg.


----------



## TAGallant (Feb 18, 2016)

Cover design is of course a different field, but if that painting is your own work, definitely keep at it. I would think you could make some money with illustration.


----------



## TAGallant (Feb 18, 2016)

So far as image processing, I played with it a program called Postworkshop. Here are some examples.


----------



## Caged Maiden (Feb 19, 2016)

wow you guys... I'm blown away by what you all can do with digital art. I'm inspired to finish the painting and at least I'll feel good about finishing it, though I simply can't do the digital editing I think it needs.

As for what I'm trying to convey, I'm not sure. Basically, I wanted to avoid the look of a totally digital piece because I'm a sucker for painted covers, of course, that may be my own limited understanding of how layering digital photos works. So..i'm not against a completely digital cover, but I knew I couldn't do that, so I took out my paints.

I would describe the book as "Dangerous Beauty meets Assassin's Creed II" and I jokingly say, "Maybe you saw the TV version, Borgias."

The story is about social reform, but it's told through 5 PsOV, the two main characters being two women who are held together through one man (the guy on the cover), the chancellor of the republic. He's been a partner to the one woman, helping her to bring down the religious leader of the republic after the man murdered her son. He's married to the other in chapter 8 of the story, and that woman is the true MC of the story, with the story beginning in her world and following her as she's married into a world she doesn't understand and isn't aware of until the midway point of the story. 

On the cover, I want to avoid broadcasting the love story because I feel the story isn't a romance (as romance stories have specific requirements I'm not going to meet, so I don't want to disappoint readers who expect those things, like a happy ending, the soap opera themes of "I'll do anything to keep you" and "I'll do anything for love" because I'm certainly not telling that kind of story).

I think the main thing I want to show on the cover is that it's a historical feeling world (based on 1576 Venice), and that while it may be a fantasy world, the people are all human, the physics of the world is non-magical, and the story is a drama that I hope will appeal to men and women, not specifically targeting women who read historical romance, because again, those readers will be disappointed when the love story doesn't end happily and people begin dying.

If I compared this book in tone and feel to any other popular book, I'd say it has a very close feel to The Lies of Locke Lamora, but it has a bigger romantic element and since the two main women characters are both romantically involved with several other characters, I don't want to show a couple on the cover, as it might be misleading.

Personally, I'm really drawn to architecture, so I went that route when I began the painting, and though my original inspired vision was to put the woman with the dead son and her mercenary associate on the cover, my friend suggested I put the chancellor on the cover because he's the glue that holds the two discrete parts of the plot together (the young woman who becomes his wife, and the rebels he's running to bring down the religious leader).

I hope that sheds some light on what my intent was when I undertook this project.

If I can convey anything on the cover, it would be that the world is real-feeling, the characters are somewhat dark in their morality and natures, and that the book is yes, a love story, but foremost, it's a tale of social reform, of which the chancellor is the primary vehicle for said reform. He's a secret-keeping ass to his wife, and when she's exposed to his world, the love story turns south, never to return. The ending is bittersweet, meaning the goal is reached, but some of the main characters don't survive the conflict, and their deaths are what really make the story what it is, so I can't change that, or I might as well scrap the project and write something light-hearted.

THANKS!!!


----------



## Caged Maiden (Feb 19, 2016)

Hey guys, I have a couple other ideas for this cover, one is a piece of parchment and a leather-looking red cover, so if any of you would be willing to exchange ideas in emails with me, would you please send me a PM? I don't want to post a bunch of random photos up here on this site, but I have some further inspirations, and I'm just trying to get them compiled into something that looks like a cover. I know that's asking a lot, but i'm happy to help with editing or whatever my strengths are in return. I'm just never going to be able to combine the photos i have into a cover, so I'm happy to trade time, though.


----------



## psychotick (Feb 20, 2016)

Hi,

Ok, given what you said about the book I went to kindle and looked up Historical fantasy ebooks to look at their cover. It's a mess of cover designs since it's not a single genre and each genre is too broad on its own. However, I found one in the top ranked books which I think meets your needs best:

Amazon.com: Marking Time (The Immortal Descendants, Book 1) eBook: April White, Angela Houle: Kindle Store

Your book is essentially character driven so you need to emphasise that on the cover by having a face. Something that shows emotion and humanity, perhaps that people will empathise with - but something they will respond to on an emotional level. Given that your man is of divided loyalties / good vs evil, I would tend to have his face perhaps in darkness, while the city background should be brighter for contrast.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## UncleanGenes (Feb 20, 2016)

I would go for the parchment or leather-looking red cover. The illustration looks super amateur.


----------



## UncleanGenes (Feb 20, 2016)

Sorry if I'm hurting your feelings Caiged Maiden, but it's the true.


----------



## TAGallant (Feb 20, 2016)

UncleanGenes said:


> I would go for the parchment or leather-looking red cover. The illustration looks super amateur.



I disagree. Actually, it reminds me of some old Graham Greene cover illustrations. The only problem with that is that it's not quite the right genre.


----------



## Caged Maiden (Feb 20, 2016)

No, my feelings aren't hurt, but the professional thing to do would be to offer some reasoning. If I don't like someone's work, I have no problems telling them so, but I usually qualify my dislike with some version of: "This opening isn't engaging to me because it spends fourteen paragraphs in exposition. I wonder why you made that choice. I think you did a fair job of setting the scene in the first paragraph, is it really necessary to go into further detail about the weather and what the city looks like, and exactly how cold the rain is and how that affects the character's mood? Couldn't we assume that his mood is affected and morality low simply because you showed three people on horses caked in mud and with water dripping of the ends of their noses? I think that image would be more effective than belaboring the point."

So you see, I'm fine hearing negative feedback, as I've already admitted I'm not a cover designer, or even a great painter. Why is it amateurish? Is the painting technique horrible? Does that mean it's unscannable? It's been hard to photograph the painting because the camera distorts the image depending on whether I capture it from directly overhead, on the right side (its best angle) or on the left. That's been challenging because in some images the perspective lines of the windows fall perfectly in line, but if I move over to capture the center, the perspective lines look really skewed and like they don't connect (very frustrating). 

Or is it the structure of the picture that looks like an obvious blunder? Have I simply made the subject too small and only a second thought to the architecture? See my original intent was to make a big painting, larger than needed, so it could be scanned and trimmed down. The left window would fall entirely on the back cover, and maybe wouldn't even be used (but I'd rather have too much than not enough when consulting with a digital artist, so I did it as big as I could conceive, since that's what art teachers always encouraged me to do in art classes, not to only focus on the subject in the center, but to increase the scale and focus, and trim it down as necessary later). 

Yeah, I'm fine with it sucking. I considered going with something else entirely, and as I mentioned in the beginning of this post, I only did the painting to experiment with whether I could create something worthwhile using as a starting point in 20 hours of my time. If a potential digital artist tells me, "Yeah, this isn't really useful because it doesn't appeal to the readers you're trying to appeal to," then I'm fine doing nothing with the painting. Or maybe I'll edit it and print it in a limited run and give it away with pre-orders. Or maybe I'll just frame it and put it on my wall as inspiration in my office. I don't care. I'm not in love with it, anymore than I'm in love with my opening paragraph or my novel's title. I'm happy to change whatever needs to be changed for commercial appeal. 

So I appreciate every opinion, but I can't take an unjustified one seriously. I'm not looking for anyone to stoke my ego in any way, because I have none. I'm only trying to experiment with what may work and what may produce the results I'm after. Basically, I can't feel good contacting a cover designer with no clue what I'm aiming for or without an idea what I consider "good enough" to sell my book. I'm already disappointed I may have to self-publish this particular novel because it's a hard sell to agents, I don't want to also shoot myself in the foot by being responsible for my own cover design choices. That's why I asked for help on this. To try to figure out whether the image itself is salvageable (I had a friend last year who cropped out the figure and shoved him closer to the skull, and added in some shading, and it looked really good for a few minutes of her time. That made me wonder whether the image could be used, since I like the architecture a whole lot. But honestly, since the wall exists in our real world, there's no reason I can't use a photo of it and blend that into other photos. I just don't have the skill to do so. And covers with solid background colors and then a band of pertinent subject material are very popular right now. I could do a leather-print red cover with a photo about 2/3 of the way up, featuring a parchment with a dagger and blood...but then I don't know whether that image feels cliche or not? I mean...it would be very pertinent to the subject and tone of my book, because this character (the chancellor) communicates in painted manuscripts with his rebel friends. They specifically use red ink to hide their messages, hence the title: Written in Red. I am fine with so many ideas, really, it's one of the reasons I kinda don't want to be responsible for designing or even approving a cover. I can determine what I like, but I've realized looking at a bunch of covers, that I might not be as particular as a lot of other folks out there.

DO I include a character on the cover? Do I pick the female lead or her more important husband, though he's a lesser character to her in the POV, but more intrinsic to the plot? If I pick the female lead, will I immediately put off any potential male readers? will I be broadcasting it as a story intended solely for women? Or will readers expect a romance plot that I'm not going to deliver on? Will architecture be too boring or bland-colored a subject? If I go with the scroll (an idea I really like), will it be photographs layered/ A painting of a painted scroll? Is the idea of blood on paper cliche? Will it appeal to female readers, who tend to prefer characters on covers?

The questions are limitless, and while I like a lot of the covers I see, I can't gauge how effective they are. Who do they appeal to? How can I mitigate the picture on the cover and the expectations my story will not achieve? I mean, it's definitely a love story, and even graphic at times, but it isn't a romance story. That's a REALLY BIG thing to me. If the love interest dies, it cannot be classified as a romance, and will disappoint people who expect a happy ending. So I'm really trying to steer away from saying anything on the cover that might lead a potential reader to expecting what I won't deliver. I've never read a story like mine, and so I have a very limited amount of exposure to what sells similar books. It's sort of like Swordspoint (which features a very old-school fairytale sort of cover):images

it's also similar to Ellen Kushner's next book, Privilege of the Sword: url (this was what I'd be going for with my leather cover with the photo band idea)

and The Lies of Locke Lamora, which has had several covers:

Locke-Lamora-UK.jpg 
51tpIK8K+tL.jpg (like this one a whole lot, and would totally fit my book)

But the thing I think I like about those last couple is that they're paintings, but then digitally layered and enhanced. And that was sort of my goal. So...is painting useless then, or is it just that my painting wasn't of the right quality? Was it the architecture, or the image? Or the coloration is too bland? Or is it the perspective, which I admit, looks aligned in person, but completely doesn't work in the photos? Is it useable, or just a waste of my efforts in pursuing it?

So, while I have some ideas, I don't think my problem is lack of concepts, I think it's mostly my confusion over what looks good to other people, especially readers, and what each of my concepts will convey, either correctly or incorrectly. I know the book intimately, but trying to find the right cover to project what I'm trying to convey is SO TRICKY! And I've been struggling with how unsure I'm feeling about that. 

SO yeah, I'm cool with my painting not being a masterpiece. I'm even cool with the whole concept for it being unworkable and a waste of 20 hours (if I finish it ever). But I'm still on my quest to put together a good cover, in the event that I have to self-publish this work in the future because no agent will pick it up. It simply isn't the kind of story that has immediate appeal to an agent, like a simpler story with predictable characters and a comfortable conclusion. Nothing about this story is comfortable, and though I understand why agents probably don't want to take a chance on that, I can't help but feel like it worked really well for Scott Lynch, coming up with a gritty tale and morally gray characters, and some really damn uncomfortable moments that left readers gripped and cringing all at once. But I want to make sure this story finds that audience, those people who LOVED The Lies of Locke Lamora, because I know some people who hated it, and I'm just bewildered. I need to make sure I find my target audience with the right cover and blurb, or I'll just have wasted not 20 hours, but three years. And that, I can't feel okay with.

Thanks to everyone who is helping me on this thread. I value all your feedback and ideas. I'll try to put up my images of the parchment and stuff, but it's hard to do without linking it.  I'll have to upload them to my photobucket.


----------



## UncleanGenes (Feb 20, 2016)

Hey there Caged.

I feel that my remark to your question was left incomplete. 
I'm no writer, so I'll try to be as clear as possible right now, we go like this:

I took another look to your first illustration ( the original I believe ) and realized that my problem is with the character. That's where the amateur side of it shows, to me (drawing technique). 

If you don't show a picture of a character in the cover, the readers are allowed to use their imagination to give a face to your characters, and their choices will always be perfect.

The skull ornament is actually pretty cool. As for really cool !! and I could totally see it as a cover with text on top of it. You can then play with the color on the lettering and the ornament to give specific moods that you feel will better represent your book.

- If you want to go wild  you can even add a specific scene on the book, as a detail on the bottom of the cover. In black, just as a graphical element to add some more input on to what to expect.


- All these options are easily made in photoshop

I hope this could be of any help for you.


----------



## Caged Maiden (Feb 20, 2016)

Well, like i mentioned, the skull wall is a real thing, so I can easily use a photo of it. But that feels a bit incomplete to me, since it's real, and I'm not sure it says anything about the book necessarily, but here's a photo of the skull wall for your perusal either way. One is a tourist's photo, and the other is obviously looted, so forgive me for posting it, but since I painted it off the tourist's photo, I don't have one I own:


----------



## Caged Maiden (Feb 20, 2016)

Here's the preliminary photos I found to inspire the manuscript and leather cover idea. I would use the leather cover and use a band of photo like in Privilege of the Sword and that would be the manuscript. I could even use a figure standing next to it like Ellen Kushner's cover, but I'm not sure about putting a character on the cover at all, so... Here are those photos, but I haven't got any editing software to produce anything that looks like my vision in my head. Hope you can envision what i'm talking about.

Here's Privilege of the Sword: 




Here's the leather looking cover:




And here's the piece of manuscript I'd have to cut and fit into a little box as in the example cover:


----------



## Caged Maiden (Feb 20, 2016)

So anyways (because I couldn't type more after posting the pics), I would use the same basic layout as the example book, but i'd use the leather cover kind of background, and then the manuscript instead of a city scene. But I'd have to make it look interesting. I'm not sure how to do that, but the parchment with writing on it would be okay, a better photo would show writing and a floral border, or something with a pattern, especially if it was detailed with red. That is really pertinent to the story, but I figured alone, those two things (leather look and manuscript0 would be a bit boring, which was why I thought to add a dagger or blood drops on the parchment? Again, we might be moving into cliche territory there, but I don't really know.

Any thoughts?

Edit: actually, now that I think about it, there's no reason the hidden messages must be in the border, and even if they are in the book, I think this photo of a manuscript is equally fascinating without a border. It would hint at the right thing, and it might be more exciting is it were edited to look like blood had spilled on it in a small way.


----------



## Laurence (Mar 19, 2016)

I'd hate to see your loveleh painting go to waste so I've worked up my own designs incorporating the leather cut-away idea. These are at pretty low res but if you're interested in continuing this route then let's PM and do this properly. 

I think once you stylise real objects such as leather or photos in the right way you can get a pretty decent pairing with your painting! I think the difference would also be even less noticeable on a printed book.


----------



## Caged Maiden (Mar 19, 2016)

OMG!!!! That's freaking amazing!!!


----------



## Caged Maiden (Mar 19, 2016)

I only get one "thank" for a post, but I'd do a hundred more if I could. I LOVE what you did, and you totally nailed what I was going for with the leather and parchment! I'm so thrilled I posted my sample pictures and described what I was going for, because it looks like you really understood what I was trying to say (despite my unusually limited vocabulary on the matter) 

!!!OMG!!! I just think this is great!


----------

