# Immortals and the Economy?



## Svrtnsse (Jan 27, 2014)

TLDR: What effect would the existence of immortals have on the global economy?

In my setting elves are immortal. They've been around for a very long time (they arrived about 12k years ago from another plane of existence) and they're going to keep being around.

Let's assume for the sake of the question that at least some of them have an interest in material possession. They like owning things; land, money, items etc.
I imagine that over the years those so inclined would have accumulated some rather respectable fortunes. They'd be filthy rich. In this they'd be a bit like regular humans. They like acquiring and having wealth. Where they differ from humans is in their perspective on the world. Humans are short lived and while some like to think about the future many don't think further than their own lifespans - or even until their next meal.

How would this affect the world?

What if the powers behind the money had long term priorities spanning centuries and millennia into the future? I'd like to think that this would result in a more careful attitude towards things like pollution and exploitation of natural resources. There would be more research into renewable energy and that kind of thing.
Does that make sense or is it just me being a bit of a hippy dreamer?


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## Shakantea (Jan 27, 2014)

Massive taxes to keep the elves' fortunes lower?


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## Saigonnus (Jan 27, 2014)

Sounds like a good topic of discussion. I would think it would depend on how elves are portrayed within the scheme of the story more than anything. If they are the traditional immortal, tree-hugging archetypes; then it makes sense that they would care enough about the future to at least safeguard certain stretched of property even if they don't make a financial fortune. It also has to do with whether or not you have them in a certain geographic location, or if they mingle with the other races.  

I would also think if they existed before the humans, or at least co-existed with the rest of the races, they technically would have had enough time to acquire a lot of things through trade or outright buying with the other races. I think they'd probably be the driving force behind the economy in many places, just because they own/control so much. It would depend on the area of course, and of local laws/traditions (like if a kingdom has laws against elves owning property etc.) I imagine in a city for example, the elves could own a quarter (or more) of the buildings outright (perhaps their own "Elftown" within the city). They bought the land/building after the previous owner died or whatever and can afford to wait as long as it takes for the rent/lease on the properties to start making a profit. Even if they don't use the building, someone is likely paying rent/leasing the space; bringing money to the elvish empire (how that money is distributed is a separate issue). Some of those spaces would also be used by the elves for their own businesses/industries etc... selling the produced goods to the townsfolk.

I would think they'd have focused first on the things everyone uses... they pay for the roads (or have them built), so they can charge a toll/tax in the area (get kickbacks from the local government that couldn't afford to build them). They own a lake or stretch of river, any fish/marine life sold from it's waters are taxed and given to the elves by way of an intermediary. Maybe they have hatcheries that releases fish every month or whatever, and people have to pay for that service.   

Other things that could have an influence is the fact that they own a certain piece of land that has a certain resource, safeguarding it from the rest of the races. The reasons for safeguarding could be: 

1. A rare or valuable material is found there and they don't want humans or other races exploiting it to the point of scarcity. Likely the sales/trade of these materials could be how they fund at least a decent living. This could also make much of their industries function more efficiently, especially the ones that use renewable resources. I could see a coalition of sorts around the woodworking industry, especially if elves have the ability to expedite the growing process for the trees. They could easily keep say three sections of trees at different stages of growth that they cycle through for their wooden goods. On the down-side, they could also be drug-dealers, rapidly growing the herbs, flowers, mushrooms or whatever and selling them to the users; this could make A LOT of money for the empire.  

2. They could be safeguarding wildlife or certain natural wonders; like a sanctuary for the endangered Red-throated Swallow or the salty bogs of Term. Hunting could be done on a limited basis, giving them monies from the permits or from the sale of goods for traveling through the area. 

3. The area serves as a buffer between two potentially warring factions/countries, keeping the peace so that war and destruction don't follow from the clash that would otherwise occur. 

4. They could acquire an area that serves as a secret base for military activity (like Area 51), patrolled heavily and mercilessly. Likely fortified with magical elements that keep the location safe from discovery (confusion/amnesia charms etc..) The facility could train most of the elite units for the empire or where their secret research happens. 

There is likely much more that I am forgetting, not considering. I think ultimately though, they'd likely be VERY important to the world economy or at least the local economy if they are limited to a geographic location.


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## psychotick (Jan 27, 2014)

Hi,

Their impact on the economy would surely vary depending on how many elves there are and how dedicated they are to wealth accumulation. A few hundred elven billionaires would make a ripple but not much more. Ten thousand would shake it. And a million? They would be the economy.

But as to their goals and how that impacts on the world through their wealth - there are a few issues to think about. First sustainability in the environment is often an expence. It is the enemy of profit as many merchant capitalists would cry. So if that's their primary motivation it's unlikely that they'd actually become super wealthy. Instead their monoey would slowly become tied up in various sustainibility projects - buying and preserving land which doesn't bring in an income.

Second governments tend not to like having much of their power taken from them, and a huge capitalist class of elves owning massive chunks of resources limits them. So they would fight back however they could, which might include things like land taxes. Interestingly though, one of the weapons the British government has used to battle the landed gentry - inheritance taxes - would obviously be quite useless.

Then there are questions of jobs etc. Forests tend not to have a lot of jobs associated with them. If the elves are natural conservators and want to keep the forests as they were, and they are a significant proportion of the land ownership, then a lot of jobs would not be found with them. Resources like minerals would not be able to be mined. Farming wouldn't be possible. Housing development on the land couldn't happen. So the elves would act as a brake on the economy, and the governments would fight that. They don't want high unemployment and poor GDP. So I'd expect them to battle that with issuing things like mineral rights licences to miners ever on (or actually under) elven lands. They'd use weapons like eminent domain to seize lands for projects in the national interest - new roads, expansion of cities etc.

Then there's good old fashioned prejudice. If the elves are seen as (assuming they are seen as elves and not simply humans) a seperate, elitist group holding vast wealth and restricting jobs and growth, their will be hostility to them. That can impact in a variety of ways. And ultimately it could lead to something equivalent to the situation the Jews experienced in Germany prior to WWII when their lands and properties and businesses were simply seized by the "government". If they aren't seen as a cohesive, identifiable group but just a bunch of recluses with wealth this scenario would be prevented.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Svrtnsse (Jan 27, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback guys. Some comments:
When the elves arrived they already had a fully developed society (one of their cities fell through a hole between the planes). The humans on the other hand were at about the same stage they were at in the real world 12,000 years ago. Another intelligent race existed at the time, but they were exterminated within a few centuries of the elves showing up.

So what's significant is probably that the elves have been around, few in numbers but comparatively advanced, to watch the human race "grow up". What I'm thinking is that at some point the humans became civilized enough that the elves would deem it worth their time to interact with them. At this stage elves could have inserted themselves as powers in human society - with all accompanying conflict.
Whether they're active or passive powers probably varies between cases. I guess in some places they take an active part in governing their land and in others they let more or less obvious human puppets do their jobs.

You also bring up important points about the social consequences of this for the elves. The most powerful positions are likely to be held by older elves while more recent generations of elves are left to fend for themselves (elven generational conflict is a topic for another day). This isn't necessarily something all humans are aware of or care about and hostilities or hostile attitudes towards elves would be common (this is already supported in my setting, but for other reasons).


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## Svrtnsse (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm also thinking that elves are likely to be in positions of authority within powerful financial institutions - openly or covertly. Not everywhere, but in many places. 
It's probably similar within politics.

I'm thinking this might be related to how immortals deal with keeping entertained during their long lifespans. Within vampire fiction there's usually talk of something called "the long game" or something similar. It's basically intriguing and plotting between vampires on a grand scale. I see no reason why immortal elves shouldn't be engaging in similar activities. They may have more benevolent (or not) motives, but they'll still need something to engage in. 
Of course not everyone will be inclined to take part in international scale intrigues spanning centuries, but some may find it enjoyable.


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## Penpilot (Jan 27, 2014)

How resistant are elves to death? Assassination could be a very lucrative field and a way to shake up the status quo. How would you like to be second in charge of a company/nation/etc. and have the head be an elf whose been in charge for 1000 years. How fast do elves reproduce. If nobody ever died, it can get pretty crowded exponentially quick. Maybe there are reproduction laws like they have/had in China. This in itself opens a can of worms if one sex is desired over another and can affect the economy.

Land would be the most valuable commodity. Maybe nobody can own land. It's all leased and the least lasts like 100-200 years at which point it goes back on the market. 

I think you've hit on a key point in more emphasis on going green. There's a lot more pressure to keep the planet nice when you know you may be on it forever. Maybe there will be a space boom, where colonization of planets will be a big focus. Lots of wealth and limited land is a nice driving factor to exchange one for the other on another planet. Which brings up the idea of elf astronauts. With immortality, it starts to become practical for long interstellar trips that take tens of thousands of years.


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## Bruce McKnight (Jan 28, 2014)

I would think that, internal to elf (immortal) society, that the concept of wealth would just "even out," like it's all relative. I think it would be similar to our human versions, just much slower. For example, if humans lived to be 200 years old, I imagine things would be pretty similar, maybe just a different inflation rate. When you get to "immortal," it might just be similar but slower. If they like accumulating things, like humans do, they would just have more time to accumulate. It may seem "slower" to us mortals, but to immortals, it wouldn't feel much different.

I think where it really gets interesting is in how it impacts their relationship and standing with non-mortals. That is where it would look like a huge disparity, a wide gap between haves (who can spend millennia accumulating wealth) and have-nots (who don't even make it to 100). This could lead to a caste system. Elves could pay humans ludicrous amounts (to humans) for menial, degrading, or ridiculous tasks.

Maybe brokers even emerge out of these cottage industries.


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## Svrtnsse (Jan 28, 2014)

Bruce McKnight said:


> I think where it really gets interesting is in how it impacts their relationship and standing with non-mortals. That is where it would look like a huge disparity, a wide gap between haves (who can spend millennia accumulating wealth) and have-nots (who don't even make it to 100). This could lead to a caste system. Elves could pay humans ludicrous amounts (to humans) for menial, degrading, or ridiculous tasks.



This is an interesting point, which I hadn't much thought about. It's very likely that in at least some places that's how it is.

The way I have envisioned it, humanity will be the dominant race in the world. They are the most numerous and they're the ones behind most scientific progress. It's pretty likely that elves are in the background but for the most part humans will appear to be in charge almost everywhere. 
I'm thinking it's probably easier for everyone that way. The humans get to (think they) manage themselves and the elves don't have to deal with rebellions and suchlike.

There's also something akin to a caste system within elven society. For each new generation of elves the race becomes a little weaker (and shorter). Elves of more recent generations aren't as strong in the magical arts as their elder. Elder elves look down on their younger kin as some kind of pariahs or failures, whereas younger elves recent the haughty attitudes of their elders.
Elves one or two generations removed probably won't have any issues interacting with each other, but the further apart they are in the generational chain the more unlikely they are to get along.

This too would affect the economical situation. Elder elves would be the owners of most land. They'd control the resources etc, they'd be the ones that have the power. 
Younger elves may gain some small parts of that, but they'd probably too be under the influence of their richer, more powerful elders.


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## Svrtnsse (Jan 28, 2014)

@Penpilot: I did some thinking on reproduction rates a while back and came to the conclusion that it's really low. 

A lot of elven females won't have children, and of those who do only very few will have more than one. Whether this is because a high rate of miscarriages (unlikely) or because they just don't want (less unlikely) I haven't quite thought about.
If you know you're going to live forever, how strong is the drive to pass on your genes to future generations?

I'm glad you agree on the point about the green policy. I thought it made sense, but it's also good to hear others see it too.

Space travel may be an option. I had originally thought that the lack of aether (magic) would prevent space travel, but it may be something I can rethink or work around if the need arises. At this time however, no space travel has been attempted.


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## theFallen (Jan 29, 2014)

if the elves  are immortal and rich on your world and (for example) you created two factions of elves and one of this two factions is a military faction and some of theur citizens have their own village and their own little army. like the system of feudalism, where the most rich people had their village and army. So when this faction is in a war , the citizens could be called by their king to help him with their army.


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## skip.knox (Jan 29, 2014)

Another point worth considering: not everyone succeeds, and they don't succeed forever.

So, yeah, a particular individual or family or clan might get rich, but unless elves are immune to having foolish children, all of the parental wealth could be lost again. The ebb and flow of wealth might be larger and might (or might not) be slower, but having wealth doesn't guarantee retention of wealth, as many a ruined human family will attest.


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## wordwalker (Jan 29, 2014)

Speaking of ebb and flow: all immortals have to have very limited birth rates, or birth rates of immortal children anyway. Or you get into *very* different issues.

Which means that in theory they'd give much more attention to raising the few children they have right-- with no guarantee that it wouldn't backfire and make them spoiled or worse, of course.


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## Svrtnsse (Jan 29, 2014)

I mentioned the birthrates in another post earlier and it is indeed very low. You make a good point in that the raising of children is something that needs paying attention to though. 

Skip also makes a good point in that having wealth doesn't equal retaining wealth. Even though an individual may have acquired certain wealth and is capable of retaining it, he's probably not immune to being tricked out of it in one way or another.

This brought up another interesting thought. Is it really such a big deal to lose out on your fortune if you are immortal? Sure, it's frustrating to have lost out on a few thousand years of acquired possessions, but if you know you have unlimited time you know you may be able to get back there again. Then again, why would you want to in the first place if you can live with reasonable comfort anyway? I guess it's something to do to keep you entertained?

---
More fact dropping on elves:
Due to the way souls interact with the world it is possible for a being to fuse their soul with the spirit of the land (the composite soul made up of all living things in the land). This process takes a long time but varies from person to person and land to land, but we're talking anything from 500 to 3,000 years. This isn't an issue for the other races but for elves it's something that needs to be considered. 
If they stay too long in one spot they will eventually became a part of that area and they won't be able to leave it. It's an option, but it's not an option many elves chose willingly.

I'd say that in the long run this too will have an impact on economy - perhaps not one that will have any practical implications for humans as it will be quite rare, but for elves it may be an issue. I haven't actually thought too much about it though, but I'll mull on it and see if I can come up with something. I guess efficiency of communication would be a very important factor here.


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## skip.knox (Jan 30, 2014)

I'm wondering about this "economy" thing. The way we are talking, it sounds as if it were a thing. We speak of other things having an impact on it. 

It's easy enough to identify economic activity -- trade, agriculture, manufacture, finance, etc. Is "the economy" the sum of these parts? One would then have to ask if long-lived creatures, or immensely rich creatures, would affect agriculture, manufacture, etc.

But we often use the word to mean something more abstract, something that is more than the sum of its parts. We say the economy prospers or is stagnant, as if it were a stream or flower. Which leads me to a question that is finally relevant.

Does your world have only one economy, or might it have several? The elves might have their own economy. They would almost certainly have their own financial systems, might have their own manufacturing, maybe agriculture would be the same. They might even have no agriculture, relying wholly on purchased food. 

The point I'm trying--struggling--to make is focusing on "the economy" might lead to some rather fruitless speculation. Think how immensely rich elves would make their money and spend their money, and derive economic systems from it. (are there no poor elves?)

Do elves mine? If not, they are utterly dependent on mining peoples for their metal. 

If elves intervene too abruptly and on a large scale, they have the potential of disrupting any human (dwarvish, etc) system. For example, if there is a famine, the elves could buy the available grain elsewhere (famines are nearly always local), making it impossible for humans to buy any. Or, they could buy the grain and distribute it freely, running local merchants and farmers out of business.  

Or, they could spend immense sums on activities essentially meaningless and irrelevant to humans -- building sky cities or anti-grav devices. But even there, when the elves spend their wealth, where does it go? Wherever it goes, it's going to be disruptive.

I have to ask, is there a story reason for elves to be so disproportionately rich?


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## psychotick (Jan 30, 2014)

Hi,

From what you've described I'd suddenly be less worried about the economic side of things and more worried about the politcal. If elves are a distinct easily recognised group of people that everyone knows about, and a minority of the total they're vulnerable. If they have relatively vast wealth which equates to power - and lets be honest since they're a distinctive group and own companies etc that's going to be well known no matter how much they try to hide behind the scenes - they're open to being turned into scapegoats. And sooner or later given that humans are becoming more advanced, their position at the top of the heap will become much more precarious.

Consider the Jewish people prior to WWII in Germany. Yes it was prejudice and madness that destroyed them. But mixed in among the hatred were some clear political objectives. The Jewish people then were a highly successful group. They were in comerce and trade and ran a great many successful businesses. As such they could oppose many things that the Nazi party stood for and at the same time had a great many things they wanted. Whipping up a bigotted hatred of them served the party very well as they crushed opposition and stole the wealth they wanted.

In the same way your elves are massively outnumbered. Their edge by the sounds of things is slipping. And they hold the power and wealth that others will want. Rebellion is in the wind.

Cheers, Greg.


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## wordwalker (Jan 30, 2014)

Envy. Sometimes the easiest motive to trigger.


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## Svrtnsse (Jan 30, 2014)

Great points raised skip and Greg.

Firstly: at this time there's no story reason for a subset of the elves to be filthy rich. It's a world-building thing and it won't have any impact on the story I'm working on at the moment. I may have impact on other stories later on, but not hugely so. Where it does matter is in setting the scene for the world and in writing its history - which is also a future project.
This is mainly a hypothetical question/discussion about something I've been pondering on and off for a while.

@skip: I think there will be at least two distinct and separate economic systems: one common where everyone, globally, takes part and one separate exclusive to elves, possibly just elder elves. 
This restricted exclusive system would probably be based on something other than actual material wealth. Maybe based on favors and services or something along those lines. 

The consequences of elven interaction in times of famine etc is also something that needs considering and it ties in with what Greg mentions about the political situation. 

Many humans are indeed having issues with elves. Elves often live in their own part of cities - like a chinatown, except for elves - they don't go out alone at night and they're generally not trusted. In short: there's racism. 
The most obvious example here is the Mahradian Empire where being an elf is a crime punishable by death. This, however, is mainly motivated by religious issues and also applies to the anfylk race (it's not illegal to be a dwarf).

This racism against elves is more relevant to stories I have in mind and has also been brought up in some short stories I've written. Originally, I thought it'd be enough that the elves were different and came from another world. It'd be enough to make humans dislike them. Having them be guilty of being enormously wealthy and perhaps not always applying this wealth in a just fashion is a great additional reason.


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