# [Reading Group] April 2014: Swordspoint by Ellen Kushner



## Philip Overby (Mar 17, 2014)

Our April 2014 classics themed book will be _Swordspoint_ by Ellen Kushner.








Please borrow or purchase the book in your preferred format and begin reading it. We'll start discussion on April 1st, 2014. 

Some info about _Swordspoint:_

_Hailed by critics as “a bravura performance” (Locus) and “witty, sharp-eyed, [and] full of interesting people” (Newsday), this classic melodrama of manners, filled with remarkable plot twists and unexpected humor, takes fantasy to an unprecedented level of elegant writing and scintillating wit. Award-winning author Ellen Kushner has created a world of unforgettable characters whose political ambitions, passionate love affairs, and age-old rivalries collide with deadly results._

Spoiler(-ish?) synopsis:



Spoiler: Something that happens early on?



_On the treacherous streets of Riverside, a man lives and dies by the sword. Even the nobles on the Hill turn to duels to settle their disputes. Within this elite, dangerous world, Richard St. Vier is the undisputed master, as skilled as he is ruthless--until a death by the sword is met with outrage instead of awe, and the city discovers that the line between hero and villain can be altered in the blink of an eye._



I'd never heard of this book before it was nominated, so I'm excited to see how it turns out. It sounds like a unique reading experience for sure. 

Amazon.com: Swordspoint (Riverside) eBook: Ellen Kushner: Kindle Store

I would like to note, any pre-reading discussion can be had here at any point before April 1st, but let's keep it spoiler free. Still plowing through our March read, so I may not be able to get to this until right before April starts. 

Happy reading!


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## Ophiucha (Mar 17, 2014)

I read this one about a year ago, at the recommendation of a fellow Scribe, but I admit to having forgotten a fair bit about it - it was one of those books I read during a binge where I read about 30 books in a month. I gave it 4 stars on Goodreads, though, so I must have liked it.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 17, 2014)

I just read the first chapter in about 5 minutes. I really like it so far. Beautiful descriptions and a sort of intriguing world I'd love to learn more about. It feels like a book that lets you just immerse yourself in the world instead of explaining everything, which I like. At this rate, I may finish this book before _His Majesty's Dragon_, but I'm determined to finish that one as well.

Gets a thumbs up from me for Chapter 1 in any case!


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## Steerpike (Mar 17, 2014)

If you like this one, Privilege of the Sword, which has a female protagonist, is also quite good. It's a bit more fast-paced and less lush in writing style, as I recall, but I enjoyed it a great deal. It is set in the same world.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 17, 2014)

I recommend these books all the time.  IN fact, it was Privilege of the Sword that really inspired WiR.  I'm all down for reading this one, because I already own it and truthfully, I got a touch bored in the fourth chapter of Swordspoint, when the characters got a bit political and a touch confusing, but I'll read it with you all.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 22, 2014)

I know we're not reading this one yet officially, but just wanted to pop in and say I'm on Chapter 5 already and I find this book to be a breeze to read. Really cool world and is usually not the kind of fiction I'd probably read, but I'm finding it quite engaging. Thanks for the nomination, Steerpike!


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## Philip Overby (Mar 26, 2014)

So for those who plan on reading Swordspoint with us, I looked ahead (my Kindle doesn't have a table of contents for this one) and there are 28 chapters. I think breaking it down like this might be good:

Week 1: Chapters 1-6
Week 2: Chapters 7-13
Week 3: Chapters 14-20
Week 4: Chapters 20-24
Week 5: Chapters 25-28

Of course you can read ahead as much as you like, but to avoid spoilers, either only talk about events that happen in these chapters during the designated week, or put your posts in spoiler tags. 

I feel like this is a fast read, so it may not take the whole month to finish it. Granted, I'm on Chapter 7 already, so maybe this won't be an issue for me.


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## Aspasia (Mar 26, 2014)

Oooh this looks like the sort of think I like  I'm not sure whether I'll manage to get it and read it along with the reading group, but I'll sure be interested in how you all find it! Saving so I remember I wanted to read this ...


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## Philip Overby (Mar 26, 2014)

Aspacia: If you'd like to follow along and ask questions or anything, feel free to do so. If this group can help you make a decision if you want to get the book or not, I think that's a nice benefit. We can be your guinea pigs!


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## Philip Overby (Mar 28, 2014)

OK, so April 1st is coming up soon so I wanted to pose some questions for the first block (Chapters 1-6). I've been speeding along on this novel so far (apologies again to those I didn't keep up with for _His Majesty's Dragon_), so I'm up to Chapter 8 now. Feel free to discuss whatever you want, but these are just some "kick start" questions.

1. What do you think of the novel so far?

2. Which character is your favorite as of yet?

3. Do you find the world intriguing or does something seem to be lacking?

4. What did you think of the opening scene with St Vier? (and why does St have no period after it  )? 

5. What do you think of the relationship between St Vier and Alec?

6. What do you think about Michael trying to become a swordsman? 

7. Have there been any scenes that confused you?


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## Steerpike (Mar 28, 2014)

1. I enjoy the novel a great deal.

2. St Vier is my favorite character. I like the Duchess as well, because I find her interesting.

3. The world intrigues me. Swordspoint is localized, so you don't get a whole lot about the word at large, but I find the society and its interactions interesting.

4. I thought the opening scene was well done. It introduced a character I like and raised a number of questions. St Vier doesn't have a period most likely because the author seems to be following the British style, which doesn't use one. Kushner is American, however.

5. Alec is a bit of a brat and too brooding or moody for me to like him a lot as a person. I like him as a character because I think he is interesting. I thought the relationship between St Vier and Alec was interesting, in part because they're opposites in many ways.

6. The interesting thing about Michael trying to become a swordsman is that it starts as a lark, as something to impress the Duchess Tremontaine. But as things move forward, it becomes more than that. I liked the progression. I like Michael well enough, and at times I felt a bit sorry for him. 

7. No.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 28, 2014)

> 1. What do you think of the novel so far?



As far as style, I really like the lush descriptions and such. They're not overpowering to the point of being too dense, they're just enough. I'm enjoying the subtlety of character interactions as well. It's not something I usually enjoy, but I feel like Kushner is a skilled writer. Sometimes if a writer is skilled, I can get into content I normally wouldn't. 



> 2. Which character is your favorite as of yet?



My inclination is St Vier, but after reading the barge scene (which may be in Chapter 7? I can't remember) and seeing Micheal's training, he's starting to edge him out. Alec seems like a pompous twit, but that's why I like him as well. The Duchess is becoming more and more interesting as she reminds me of girls I liked when I was a teenager. 



> 3. Do you find the world intriguing or does something seem to be lacking?



I've long talked about how I want to read more fantasy that deals with smaller conflicts and doesn't span the world. This is one of them. I'm finding I don't need huge conflicts to interest me in a story as long as the characters and their goals are interesting to me. One thing that turned me off about _His Majesty's Dragon_ was I felt like there was huge potential with the idea. I wanted more, but it felt like it was being held back for some reason. That was a story where I wanted more. This is the opposite. I feel like I don't want to know too much more about the world because I'm interested in this small slice of it. 



> 4. What did you think of the opening scene with St Vier? (and why does St have no period after it )?



George R.R. Martin had a blurb about it saying how fantastic it is. I agree. This was a good example of a scene that had the right bit of action and intrigue for me.



> 5. What do you think of the relationship between St Vier and Alec?



It feels like a mutual friendship that verges on servant-master. Alec is so brusque, it's a surprise to me that St Vier doesn't just run him through. But I guess they're relationship is stronger than that. 



> 6. What do you think about Michael trying to become a swordsman?



I liked when he confronted St Vier and he was just like, "No. I don't train people." The end. Michael seems the type that doesn't give up easy. I like that about him so far.



> 7. Have there been any scenes that confused you?



The part that Caged Maiden brought up confused me a little bit, but I powered through it. I may have to go back and read it to understand all the little nuances. I rarely would do that with a book, but this one of the first books I've read where the things that confuse me don't annoy me. It actually makes me want to re-read and catch things I didn't catch the first time. I'm picking up more and more as I go though, so I think I'm beginning to understand the relationships and how these people will ultimately cross each other. Something about it reminds me of Shakespeare for some reason.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 28, 2014)

*1. What do you think of the novel so far?*
I enjoy it.

*2. Which character is your favorite as of yet?*
The Duchess, but St Vier is a close second.

*3. Do you find the world intriguing or does something seem to be lacking?*
I think if I were to scrutinize, I would find many flaws - but for the sake of an exaggerated fantasy of political intrigue and gratuitous violence, the setting works just fine.

*4. What did you think of the opening scene with St Vier? (and why does St have no period after it)? *
I reblogged this relevant comic to my tumblr earlier.

*5. What do you think of the relationship between St Vier and Alec?*
I like it much better than the political stuff. They are enjoyable characters, although Alec is a bit too much of a brat for me to like him I enjoy the way he balances St Vier, and their relationship is almost... sweet. In a way. A strange way.

*6. What do you think about Michael trying to become a swordsman? *
I think nothing, to be honest. It's mildly amusing, but it's not something that interests me as much as his weird love triangle situation.

*7. Have there been any scenes that confused you?*
No, but I am confused as to why the more interesting part of the story gets chapters that are like 6 pages long and the court stuff goes on for about 800 pages per chapter. :/


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## Gryphos (Apr 1, 2014)

*1. What do you think of the novel so far?
*
I'm very much enjoying the book so far. The writing style is flashier than I usually like but it's so well done I find that I'm just burning through chapters.

*2. Which character is your favorite as of yet?
*
For me it's got to be Alec. Yes, he's technically an asshole, but I actually like assholes a lot of the time. I like his sarcasm and I can seriously appreciate his apparent disdain for the rich. (technically not in this section but it's only chapter 7) "The rich… are looking particularly rich tonight."

*3. Do you find the world intriguing or does something seem to be lacking?
*
I actually rather like the toned down small-scale setting. It gets the job done.

*4. What did you think of the opening scene with St Vier? (and why does St have no period after it)? 
*
I thought the opening was great. It did its job and had me hooked within a few paragraphs.

*5. What do you think of the relationship between St Vier and Alec?
*
As I said Alec is my current favourite character and I do like the relationship between him and St Vier, mainly because you're not entirely sure who's the one 'in charge'. Alec bosses St Vier around, but that's only because St Vier lets him.

*6. What do you think about Michael trying to become a swordsman? 
*
I get the definite feeling that this is going to lead to a bunch of messy stuff. It's a time bomb if I ever saw one: one day he's going to get into fight and shit's gonna go down.

*7. Have there been any scenes that confused you?
*
Nope.


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## Philip Overby (Apr 1, 2014)

Thanks for the comments so far everyone. I just noticed that St Vier and Alec are lovers. I didn't even realize that early on in the book. I think that explains their dynamic a bit more for me. I wasn't really sure why St Vier was helping him and doting on him, but I don't think it's about money, they just like each other a lot.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Apr 1, 2014)

I'll be playing catch up on this one. Finishing Weeks's "Way of Shadows" first.


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## Ophiucha (Apr 2, 2014)

It's not very overt in the early chapters, although the first chapter does say that they sleep in the same bed. I don't know if I would have picked up on it so early if I hadn't known that the author was gay before I'd read it the first time, though.


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## Philip Overby (Apr 2, 2014)

> It's not very overt in the early chapters, although the first chapter does say that they sleep in the same bed. I don't know if I would have picked up on it so early if I hadn't known that the author was gay before I'd read it the first time, though.



One reason I like this book a lot so far is that it does something that I praised Prince of Thorns for, in that it doesn't necessarily dwell on explaining the nature of every single relationship right off the bat. So even though I missed that detail, I didn't feel like "Wait, a minute! Why didn't she spend more time on that earlier?" I like that subtlety in the characters and world-building.


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## Ankari (Apr 3, 2014)

I must be in the minority so far. This book is a chore similar to Temeraire. I'm six chapters in and I have no idea what the conflict is, or why I should care about any character.


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## Steerpike (Apr 3, 2014)

I found that there was a lot of conflict going on. Much of it is in the form of intrigue, and also internal conflict. You have the external conflict among those in power, the internal and external conflicts of Michael. Largely internal conflict with Alec, though it manifests externally. Interestingly, of all characters St Vier has conflict that seems to be primarily external, both in presentation and resolution. I thought that was fitting given his position in the society.

At any rate, this is my third read through, so obviously I like the book a lot. I won't read a book more than once if I don't. The sequels are great too (with Privilege of the Sword seeming to me to be more traditional in terms of structure, conflict, and so on). 

I think there is some flavor that is similar to Her Majesty's Dragon, which as I said in the discussion of that book is one that _in theory_ I should like (I like period stories, books like _Jane Eyre_, and so on). But whereas I felt Novik didn't have the capability to pull off that kind of story, at least not in a way that interests me, I find Kushner's writing to be wonderfully engaging. My copy of _Swordspoint_ has three short stories at the end, and I've not only finished the book already but read all three short stories. I'm on _The Fall of the Kings_ now


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## ACSmyth (Apr 3, 2014)

I've cracked and ordered a copy, so I'll be playing catch-up again.


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## Philip Overby (Apr 4, 2014)

ACSmyth said:


> I've cracked and ordered a copy, so I'll be playing catch-up again.



Hooray! Let's see if we can go three for three. 

I'm liking it so far, so we'll see I suppose.


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## Philip Overby (Apr 4, 2014)

> I must be in the minority so far. This book is a chore similar to Temeraire. I'm six chapters in and I have no idea what the conflict is, or why I should care about any character.



Ankari: It's interesting you mention this because I feel like this book is kind of like if His Majesty's Dragon and Prince of Thorns had a baby. That probably makes no sense, but allow me to explain.

Whereas I'll say His Majesty's Dragon didn't engage me much, Swordspoint is doing what Prince of Thorns did: it's carrying me along because of its characters and the interesting world. I guess it's a style thing. The further you get in, the conflict makes itself more apparent. So for me, it has a lot of elements that Novik uses in her book (personal relationships, internal conflict) but also the parts I liked about Lawrence's book as well (style, fast pace, interesting world.)

I'd say you and I have similar tastes in a lot of regards (Abercrombie, Cook, Erikson). The reason I voted on this book was because I feel like I already know what I like (gritty, darker fantasy) and I'm looking for stuff I may _also_ like that I normally wouldn't. 

That said, once I got further along, I started to really like the characters, especially St Vier and Alec. I'm starting to like Michael more, but it's been coming along a bit slower. The other minor characters also are interesting in their own ways, but a lot of this is subtlety that's hard for me to pick up sometimes. I guess.

So I'd say both His Majesty's Dragon and Swordspoint are books I normally wouldn't read. Whereas His Majesty's Dragon perhaps took too long to click with me, Swordspoint did so pretty quickly. The same can be said for Prince of Thorns. Both of these books hooked me because of stylistic reasons and kept me because of character reasons. 

While Prince of Thorns's plot was pretty straightforward I felt (quest for revenge) Swordspoint has many little intricacies that sometimes I catch and sometimes I don't. But when I do catch them, I'm like "Oh!' Most books I read don't really do that, so I'm appreciating this different reading experience. I'd probably read more of Kushner's work down the line.

One thing I personally like about this reading group is it allows me to become exposed to different authors I'd never consider reading otherwise. While I may vote for some authors that are more familiar to me, I was glad to take a risk on someone I'd never read or heard much about this go round.


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## Ankari (Apr 4, 2014)

I'm over 80 pages into this story and all I want to do is throw it aside. The problem is I read ebooks and use my phone to read them.

The story is weak. No other way to describe it. You have cliches all over the place. The brooding hero (Richard), a lover who distances himself away to hide his identity/past (Alec), pompous nobles (nearly everyone else), and a spattering of whores and thugs.

What's the plot? I know it involves intrigue because the author is hiding it while filling my miind with chatter and cranked hormonal levels.

Here is what I have:

1) If someone stabbed St Vier and left him to die, I wouldn't care. Actually, I would, because that would be _something._
2) If Alec revealed himself to be a noble of some sort, or a dragon polymorphed as a man, or a god of love, or a collection of mice veered (Eriksson reference) into a man, I wouldn't care.
3) If Michael ends up fighting St Vier and winning, I wouldn't care.
4) If the book suddenly said "The End" when I flipped the paged, I would thank God and move onto something else.


Someone please tell me what they're seeing in this thing. Please.


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## Steerpike (Apr 4, 2014)

I've already stated it. I don't feel compelled to convince you to share my opinion. Not everyone will like any given books. In my case, it is one of a handful I've read numerous times. Tastes differ.


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## Ophiucha (Apr 4, 2014)

The story is definitely weaker than _His Majesty's Dragon_ was, for me. I find the court intrigue stuff in this book to be a bit boring - I like the Duchess as a character, but I'm not interested in her scheming and playing around with Michael. Michael could not be in this book at all and I'd regard that as an improvement just to be rid of such a boring character. But I really do quite like St Vier, and even though Alec is bit too irritating for me to like _him_, I do like their relationship and I like St Vier's fights and I like the worldbuilding in their part of town (the court stuff just seems like court stuff, with more bisexuality). 

I think Kushner's a better writer, technically, than Naomi Novik. By a considerable margin, which makes up for the longer stretches of this book I find uninteresting compared to _Temeraire_.


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## Philip Overby (Apr 5, 2014)

> I think Kushner's a better writer, technically, than Naomi Novik. By a considerable margin, which makes up for the longer stretches of this book I find uninteresting compared to Temeraire.



I think that's a big point for me is that I just find Kushner's style more interesting myself. Novik has a lot of good points as well, but for whatever reason that book just didn't click with me.



> Someone please tell me what they're seeing in this thing. Please.



I think I said why I like this book above your post. It's more of stylistic thing and me connecting with certain characters. This is another book I wouldn't necessarily recommend to everyone, but I feel like it's just clicking better for me. Like Steerpike said, "Not everyone will like any given book." I could see why people liked His Majesty's Dragon, but for whatever reason it just wasn't for me.  Prince of Thorns is one I found quite engaging. While I really enjoyed that one, a lot of people levied the same complaints that you have about this book (no discernible plot, characters they didn't care about, etc.)

I think once a reader decides early on they don't like a book, it is a difficult climb to change that opinion. I know it's only happened for me a handful of times (Erikson for example. I like his style but had trouble sticking with it. However, once I carried on, I really loved his work). 

So for me, the style is interesting to me and it's a change of pace. I've read lots of more traditional fantasy work and I'd say this is pretty non-traditional. 

I find Michael more interesting than some others might. I'm assuming we'll get an eventual showdown between St Vier and Michael, so I'm interested to see how that turns out (not good for Michael I'm guessing).

I haven't noticed any cliches really, so I guess that's attributed to what I think is Kushner's writing style. 

Another thing I love is the idea of this city where swordsmen and duels are widely accepted. I think that's a cool concept and it's executed well. For me, if I find a concept cool (like dragons during the Napoleonic Wars), I want to give the story a shot. When this book was first described, I found the concept really interesting and I think Kushner is a very good writer so she does a good job executing it.


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## Ankari (Apr 5, 2014)

I arrived at the conversation between Richard and Katherine and I couldn't be happier. I can identify the plot, and even appreciate the mystery peppered throughout that scene. If the story continues in this vein, I'll be content.

I wonder if the 80 pages before of back story become relevant later.


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## Philip Overby (Apr 6, 2014)

I'd like to talk about the second block, but there was a lot going on, so I need to go back and look at those chapters and see what exactly happened in each of them. Some new characters are focused on (like Ferris) so I need to get all that straight. I'll try to post some discussion questions early this week.


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## Steerpike (Apr 7, 2014)

As an aside, I'm almost done with The Fall of the Kings. Very nicely done. The magical and mystical elements of the world figure in more heavily than in Swordspoint or Privilege of the Sword. A few familiar faces appear, though many years have passed. Great fun.


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## ACSmyth (Apr 7, 2014)

It has arrived, though I won't start it until I've finished the other paperback I've got on the go. So I'm playing catch-up again, but at least I won't be as far behind as I was on PoT.


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## Philip Overby (Apr 9, 2014)

OK, some discussion questions.

1. How do you feel about Ferris's POV chapters?

2. Do you feel like Michael's training with Applethorpe will be worthwhile?

3. How do you feel about St Vier rejecting Horn's proposal to take care of Michael for his slight?

4. Are there any other characters you've become interested in? 

5. Do you feel you are growing more interested in the story as it goes along? Which plot point is most interesting to you?

OK, that's all I have for now. Feel free expand on anything if you want.

I'll have to look over


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## Gryphos (Apr 11, 2014)

1. How do you feel about Ferris's POV chapters?

Ferris seems like an interesting character and his chapters are fine. But there's one thing I don't quite get, or maybe I've just forgotten (which is most likely). Why exactly does he want to kill Lord Halliday?

2. Do you feel like Michael's training with Applethorpe will be worthwhile?

It's obviously going to lead to something, probably a duel he's going to end up fighting. What that leads to, no idea.

3. How do you feel about St Vier rejecting Horn's proposal to take care of Michael for his slight?

He was right to refuse, but he handled it all wrong. Instead of out right refusing the offer and saying "all future letters will be burned", he should have actually told Horn that he needed more details and a face-to-face agreement instead of a brief letter. Him being rude about it won't end well, I'm betting.

4. Are there any other characters you've become interested in? 

Not really. I already liked Alec for his cynicism and sarcasm, but otherwise no characters are really sticking out for me. None of them are bland or anything, but none are particularly outstanding.

5. Do you feel you are growing more interested in the story as it goes along? Which plot point is most interesting to you?

The story is alright, but to me it's nothing special. The thing I'm most interested in is the whole killing Halliday thing. Though, as I stated earlier, I'm not entirely sure why Ferris wants him dead.


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## Philip Overby (Apr 12, 2014)

I'm still feeling like this book is hooking me more and I do think it has a lot to do with the style. I agree with Gryphos that the actual plot isn't anything really new, but it has various twists and turns that are fun. This just shows me that a book doesn't have to have some awesome, set the world on fire plot to be an interesting story for me. Have several personalities butting up against each other and you can have quite a remarkable story.

I'm still sticking with St Vier and Alec as my favorites. Again I agree with Gryphos that a lot of the other characters are fine, but I don't have any other favorites, although the Duchess is certainly interesting. I do like Lord Horn's spiteful and jealous nature as well.


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## Philip Overby (Apr 16, 2014)

I've been busier than normal with work, but I've still been reading this. I really enjoyed the play scene and the aftermath of it. I'm interested to see if Horn can lure St Vier out, but I suspect it won't happen the way he wants because Horn seems to be kind of a screw up. 

What plot point is most interesting to you at the moment?


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## Philip Overby (Apr 18, 2014)

How are people coming along with this one? I'll just talk about it generally so far.

Some points I find about this story:

1. It's very different than the kind of stories I usually read. It does have a lot of politicking and intrigue, but I guess I'm used to more adventure style fantasy. So this has been a welcome diversion from my usual picks.

2. I really love the idea of Riverside. A place with basically no laws where people handle things by hiring swordsmen. It seems kind of a barbaric way of handling things, but in a very genteel sort of society. 

3. While I was becoming more interested in Michael, his PoV has slipped under several others that have been cropping up. Usually I don't mind multiple PoVs, but for this particular book, I would have preferred it stuck to the major players. It's not a deal-breaker for me, but I find myself more interested in the characters who were introduced at the beginning.

4. While I'm not confused with anything, there is a lot to keep up with. Who is friendly with who, who hates who, who is going to kill who. I feel like I have to take notes in order to discuss this book. I like it a lot, but I find it difficult to discuss because I can't just read it and say, "Oh this happens." Some parts are that simple, but with the barge scene for instance, there is a lot to unpack. Because of the intricacies, it makes it difficult for me to remember what happened in each block that I'm reading. I remember in a general way. However, this may have to do with me reading the bulk of this on the train to work when I'm half-awake. I would say this book is one you need to have a little bit more attention for.

5. Lots of interesting things happening here where I'm at now. However, there are so many little threads to connect, I wonder how they're all going to be resolved. There's Ferris and Katherine (is that her name) and dealing with a lord whose name I can't remember. Then there's St Vier-Michael conflict possibly, and St Vier-Horn. So while there's lots of conflict going on now, like I said, I'm hazy on some of the details. 

Hope everyone's coming along on this one. Sorry I guess I'm supposed to be some kind of facilitator for this group, but with work I'm finding it hard to be able to post as much in general. So much to keep up with in life and all!


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 18, 2014)

I know I'm behind, but it took me more than a week to push past the first political scene at tea.  Ugh.  This was my problem with it the first time.  As I read it, a little Phil on my shoulder says, "Anita... do your characters always have to talk over tea?  I like your scenes in orchards, gardens, or alleys better.

I just really got bogged down because for me, it was a terrible info dump of crap I didn't care about.  The bits with Alec and St Veir were just so much better.

Okay, pushing on now.  Hope to catch up soon.

i try to remember as I read this that it's not current.  It was written in 1990 or something and meant to appeal to readers at that time.  Things have seriously picked up pace since then and while there are a few current authors that still use belabored writing styles, the current fantasy market has moved past this particular tedious style.  I mentioned Privilege of the Sword before and for those of you who enjoy the political intrigue of Kushner's world, it's a FPOV work that certainly has a different writing style.  

If I didn't love that book so much, though, I might have abandoned this one for a second time.  I just find its introductory chapter intriguing, but the follow up tedious beyond words.  At the end of the tea, I was hoping a rogue gunman barged in and shot the place up to end my misery.


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## Ankari (Apr 18, 2014)

I finished the book. I have to say, the book ends better than it begins. When Kushner has Ferris use Katherine as a messenger to Richard, things picked up steam.

There are a few flaws with this book, namely the first 80 pages. Michael seems to have slipped off of Kushner's radar. From the set up, you'd think he had a larger role to play than the one he has (I don't want to detail his fate as I don't want to spoil anything).

For such a short book, there are too many names. Trying to determine which plot belongs to which lord, and why they have even entered the fray, is a burdensome task. If you let the story catch you up in the details, you expose yourself to possible consfusion. Once you step away, the plot is pretty straight forward. I won't discuss it because I'm not sure where everyone is at.

In theory, I like the idea of Riverside. But the practical side of me can't accept the lack of lawlessness we're told exists. Every Riversider seems to adhere to unspoken laws. If you compare the two parts of the city, you'll note less violent crimes are committed in Riverside than in the city proper. I can only think of one scene where anyone dies in Riverside.

Everyone seems well nurished, sheltered, and ladened with impressive heaps of idle time. Riverside doesn't live up to the picture Kushner has painted for us.


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## Ophiucha (Apr 18, 2014)

I got distracted playing through all of the _Mass Effect_ games, but I'm near the end of the book. It definitely picks up a bit more once the political intrigue has more to do with St Vier, and I think through this whole thing he and Alec are the main reason I like the book. The world has some interesting notes, a few of the players in the political game are fun to watch (Diane, Katherine - I do quite like her little character arc), but the chapters that focus on Alec and Richard are the best of the book.

When I read this book the first time a year ago, I came in less out of love for political intrigue and more out of interest for some older fantasy with LGBT characters, and I am quite happy with the book in that regard.

But the type of story and world this is doesn't fall too far outside of my usual reading habits, either. I am reminded a lot of the _Gormenghast_ series and the earlier _The Worm Ouroboros_ (which was more swords & sorcery than this, but definitely has a lot of the same flavour), and I think Susanna Clarke's _Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell_ may have been influenced a bit by Kushner. It's not my favourite subgenre, but it's one I have read a fair bit of all the same.

It is an odd one for me in that I actually like the action more than the conversations. I'm usually the other way around.


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## Steerpike (Apr 21, 2014)

I completed a trifecta. I finished Swordspoint, and then went on and re-read Privilege of the Sword, which is a great book and the pacing is faster than Swordspoint if that bothers you. Finally, I read The Fall of the Kings, which brings magic and mysticism back into the world and is quite good.

So that was my April reading.


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## Philip Overby (Apr 22, 2014)

I'm getting to some pretty wild stuff now. 

SPOILERS ahead for those who are behind.




Gone now? OK, spoilers:

1. I loved that Michael didn't get his chance to fight St Vier and his teacher took the fall as well. It was also nice to see St Vier actually meet someone who challenged him.

2. Alec's short imprisonment by Horn was rather entertaining. His subsequent drug use is also interesting. I feel like Alec is just this complete human train wreck that is ultimately going to cost St Vier his head (although if it does, I haven't got to that part yet)

3. Apparently Ferris still wants St Vier to take care of Halliday but with all the chaos going on, St Vier may not get to do it. Interested to see how that turns out.

I agree with Ophiucha that St Vier and Alec are infinitely the most interesting characters in the book. Michael fell by the wayside a bit, but I did like how the duchess has taken him under her wing. I feel like there must be some ulterior motive to that though. 

The intrigue! 



> Everyone seems well nurished, sheltered, and ladened with impressive heaps of idle time. Riverside doesn't live up to the picture Kushner has painted for us.



This seems to go back to the "everything is too clean" criticism of _His Majesty's Dragon._ I felt it was apt there, but here something about the world Kushner created feels more real to me. It does some people are either fighting, chatting, or lounging about for the most part, but I just get this feeling things are a lot slower. It's not a dark world even though there are dark elements to it. I kind of feel like there is this man who comes behind everyone and cleans up dead bodies with little white gloves on.


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## ACSmyth (Apr 22, 2014)

I'm up to the drug use, and honestly don't know what I think of this book.

For the first 100 pages or so I couldn't see any point to it, and it was a real struggle to be bothered. I'm a bit more engaged now, but it still seems to be unclear where it's going or what it's trying to achieve. The roadbumps, such as they are, are being overcome rather easily and I've not yet feared for any of the characters. The one I was hoping would prove interesting has just been despatched by St Vier. So much for that, then!

I'd really hoped to be absorbed by St Vier and Alec by now, but somehow they aren't coming off the page the way I wanted them to. They are, dare I say it, rather flat. It's all very pretty and the prose is nice, but I'm imagining lace cuffs and velvet jackets rather than dirt and thieves and challenges and villainy.

Actually, maybe that's part of it. Maybe the prose is getting between me and the setting. Hmmm.


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## Philip Overby (Apr 22, 2014)

This is another case for me where style wins out out. I found His Majesty's Dragon's style very plain and didn't really have any characters that hooked me. Whereas Kushner's style is a little different than I'm used to, so I'm just enjoying it more. I wouldn't say this is my favorite book I've ever read, but it's the kind of book that I've enjoyed because I normally don't like stories with rich people problems.


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## Philip Overby (Apr 25, 2014)

I guess most everyone that's reading along is wrapping this one up. I'm about 70 percent so far on my Kindle (not sure how many pages) but I think I'm towards the end. Some final thoughts as I'm going toward the end:

I'm actually finding that the story so far after St Vier's capture to be kind of drier than the earlier parts. While I really dug the early part of this book, I feel like it's kind of dragging towards the end. I'm not sure why this is, but I don't really feel as compelled to see how things pan out with any of the characters other than St Vier and Alec. I was really into Michael's character (or was starting to get into it) then when he was hidden somewhere I just had less interest in him after that.

I do like some of the minor characters like Ginnie Vandal and Katherine, but I can't say I feel the same about Ferris or any of the other characters that have PoVs. Since Lord Horn is dead, I feel like one of the more compelling characters is gone. Which is fine, but no one's really stepped in to fill his place.

So while I have liked a lot of this story more than others, I'm having pushing myself toward the end since these PoV characters I'm not as interested in keep cropping up.

Which begs a question I'm sure a lot of writers think about: is it good to limit PoVs in a story so this doesn't happen? I found the same with GRRM's books. I always find certain characters I really love, then I get slightly disappointed when I have to spend time with characters I'm not as interested in. I guess that's the way things go though.

Anyone else have opinions about the other PoV characters?


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## Ankari (Apr 25, 2014)

It's a tricky thing to balance. I've been there. I love Rand in the Wheel of Time. If the book was written from his PoV only, I would have no problem with it. Until I read a chapter in Lan's PoV. Matt's and Perrin's, too.

Then there are those characters that drive you nuts! Why do I have to read about Gawain? Who cares about Thom?

This is the problem. Everyone likes a certain PoV. There is no way of guarantying that all would like the same.

An  interesting note. I didn't like Arya in the books. I find her character in the show fascinating.


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## ACSmyth (Apr 25, 2014)

I didn't mind all the POVs in WoT, until he started bringing in obscure Aes Sedai and I had quite literally NO idea who this woman was. So I coasted through that bit, figuring if it was important I'd work it out eventually.

Apart from the dread book 10, the worst bit for me was when he went nearly 2 books without a Perrin POV. I even went back to see if he'd died and I'd somehow missed it, he was gone so long. I really liked Perrin, and my main focus became "When am I going to get another Perrin bit?" But as long as they are better spaced (nearly 2 books. *facepalm*) I don't mind the swapping about.

I've finished Swordspoint, and my reaction is "Meh."

I still think the characters were flat. I really wanted to know and care about Richard and Alec and just didn't. I got a bit frustrated with it, but appreciate that what I wanted was the story written to my preferences and specifications, and life isn't like that. My main grouse I think was that I never understood the Richard/Alec dynamic. They were lovers, yet a lot of the time they didn't even seem to like each other much. Richard would kill someone for looking sideways at Alec, yet it was all very clinical. I like emotion from characters, and while I felt it should have built towards something and then had some sort of crescendo, like a piece of music, it all stayed on a single note. And yes, Richard is a killer and cold and calculating and so on, but the only emotion we really hear about in the book was a couple of lines of his backstory of how he killed his girlfriend.

This was an "It's OK" 2 star for me on Goodreads. Might squeak a 3rd star on Amazon's system, on a good day. Interesting to see a story with LGBT characters from the 80s (it was the 80s, wasn't it?) I'd imagine that was pretty rare in fantasy back then, the occasional gay dragonrider notwithstanding.


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## Ophiucha (Apr 25, 2014)

Yeah, 1987 I think.

On that note, was I the only one who had to go to the LGBT section to find this book at the store? My local place doesn't put it in the fantasy section. 

I rarely love having multiple perspectives in a book, this one included, because I've got rather particular tastes about what kind of character I want to follow around and rarely are there going to be three or four in one book who fit the criteria.

On the other hand, my pickiness about main characters hinders me from liking many books at all, and I might have liked them a lot more if half the time we were following another, more interesting character. Even if I'd still bemoan the chapters spent with the intended protagonist. So I guess that's one way of looking at it. I'm sure people read _Swordspoint_ and only care about the political intrigue, sighing whenever they reach another chapter that opens with the antics of Alec and Richard. Whereas this book would not pass a 3-star rating for me if those two weren't the focus of half the book.

This one only had a handful, and I can keep track of who they all are at least. ASOIAF definitely has the problem of tossing me into someone's POV and I'm left wondering 'who the hell am I reading about right now?'


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## Philip Overby (Apr 25, 2014)

> This one only had a handful, and I can keep track of who they all are at least. ASOIAF definitely has the problem of tossing me into someone's POV and I'm left wondering 'who the hell am I reading about right now?'



This became a problem for me later in the series when the PoV chapters weren't named after the characters. Not that the PoV shifts threw me in _Swordspoint _, I just found myself saying, "Oh, Ferris again." 



> I still think the characters were flat. I really wanted to know and care about Richard and Alec and just didn't. I got a bit frustrated with it, but appreciate that what I wanted was the story written to my preferences and specifications, and life isn't like that. My main grouse I think was that I never understood the Richard/Alec dynamic. They were lovers, yet a lot of the time they didn't even seem to like each other much. Richard would kill someone for looking sideways at Alec, yet it was all very clinical. I like emotion from characters, and while I felt it should have built towards something and then had some sort of crescendo, like a piece of music, it all stayed on a single note. And yes, Richard is a killer and cold and calculating and so on, but the only emotion we really hear about in the book was a couple of lines of his backstory of how he killed his girlfriend.



I didn't understand the dynamic at first, but then once I found out they were sleeping together, it made a lot more sense. It seemed like a very "plaything" kind of relationship. Alec gets annoyed with someone, Richard kills them. It seems like all fun and games until Alec gets inconvenienced by the whole thing. I feel like Richard rubbing on the manacle marks on Alec's wrists and his anger over his drug use show that he does love him. And Alec is feeling the same when he begs Richard to leave. When Richard stands his ground and refuses, the "plaything" no longer is fun and has become dangerous. That's why I find the relationship interesting. I feel like Alec only cares for Richard as long as he's useful. When he becomes a liability, the relationship ends. I do feel like there is a lot of emotion there in those scenes, but both are trying to cover it up so it's not as evident that they really do care for one another, no matter how trivially. 

If I had to review this book, I'd probably give it 3.5 to 4 stars. I liked it, but for some reason I felt like it should have ended earlier. I don't know if that makes sense, but that was my feeling. Since I tend to like either funny/silly stories or darker stories (one extreme or the other), I found this one didn't fit into my preferred style of reading. And that's why I liked it for the most part. The style carried me through the parts I wasn't as connected to, and I did find the Alec/Richard relationship interesting because it wasn't so conventional with them declaring their love for each other and all that.


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## Philip Overby (Apr 28, 2014)

OK, just finished this. Makes me 2 for 3 in the Reading Group so far. I felt like the story ended kind of flat for me, but overall I really enjoyed the story. Parts of it lulled for me, but for the most part it held my attention and was a relatively easy ready. I felt like Alec and Richard were definitely the focal points and that got hammered home when I read the Afterword and noticed that Kushner did several more stories following these characters. I liked them the most. I was a bit disappointed never to hear again from Michael toward the end and I felt like Alec being a lord seemed kind of out of left field, but made sense. 

In any case, I'd probably read more from Kushner if someone highly recommended another book, but I have so many other books to get through, it would probably be a long time before I would get to it.

I give this one a thumbs up with the caveat that it's not a non-stop rollercoaster ride and some of it feels too easy.


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## Gryphos (Apr 28, 2014)

I've finished the book and my verdict is "I guess it's alright". Truth be told I found it rather dull for a large part, especially toward the end. One thing really bothered be. What the hell was the point of Michael's story arc? It didn't go anywhere or have any impact on the main story. I just really don't get it.


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## Steerpike (Apr 28, 2014)

Philip Overby said:


> OK, just finished this. Makes me 2 for 3 in the Reading Group so far. I felt like the story ended kind of flat for me, but overall I really enjoyed the story. Parts of it lulled for me, but for the most part it held my attention and was a relatively easy ready. I felt like Alec and Richard were definitely the focal points and that got hammered home when I read the Afterword and noticed that Kushner did several more stories following these characters. I liked them the most. I was a bit disappointed never to hear again from Michael toward the end and I felt like Alec being a lord seemed kind of out of left field, but made sense.
> 
> In any case, I'd probably read more from Kushner if someone highly recommended another book, but I have so many other books to get through, it would probably be a long time before I would get to it.
> 
> I give this one a thumbs up with the caveat that it's not a non-stop rollercoaster ride and some of it feels too easy.



Phil, Privilege of the Sword is a more straightforward story, and lots of fun. You'd probably like that. The Fall of the Kings is probably the most complex, in terms of plot, and brings magic back into the world, which is pretty cool.


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## Philip Overby (Apr 29, 2014)

Gryphos said:


> I've finished the book and my verdict is "I guess it's alright". Truth be told I found it rather dull for a large part, especially toward the end. One thing really bothered be. What the hell was the point of Michael's story arc? It didn't go anywhere or have any impact on the main story. I just really don't get it.



I felt the same about that. I assumed it would end with him challenging St Vier, but maybe that was too obvious? Anyway, yeah, I felt that was one of the more disappointing parts for me also because I started to like him.


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