# Star Wars Spoiler Thread (the first post probably doesn't have them)



## Garren Jacobsen (Dec 16, 2017)

I am trying to keep this vague for the first post. But after, spoilers are encouraged.

First, I am going to discuss what I consider to be the big 3 elements of a movie (Character, plot, and cinematography). Next is some miscellaneous items that are plus or minus factors. Last, is my conclusion. I have tried to keep this review vague. This review is stream of conscious. Also, spoilers are allowed in the comments. You have been warned.

Let’s start with one of the big three in terms of movie story: character.

Luke was by far his best in this movie. He was deeper emotionally and a more complex character than he ever was in the OT. And the call back to the first time we meet him was something beautiful. His archetype in the Campbellian hero’s journey in this movie was that of the reluctant mentor, a sub-type of the mentor archetype that Obi-Want filled in ANH.

Rey was powerful and likable, a bit too skilled in the ways of the Force, but so was Luke in the OT so it doesn’t bother me too much.

Poe Dameron had an interesting character arc going from hotshot laser brained pilot to a true leader of the Resistance.

Kylo Ren did something surprising yet totally expected at the end and creates an interesting wrinkle for the third movie.

Finn’s story and arc was by far the weakest of the main characters, but he still was well acted and likable. Good enough to get a pass, all things considered.

One of my biggest gripes though is that there were moments where the script didn’t let the characters really feel the weight and the drama of what happened, they sacrified it for the sake of a joke. It wasn’t awful, but it was a bit disappointing. They should have let those dramatic bits hit and sink in and not been taken away by an ill-placed joke. This criticism though isn’t a big one, more of a minor annoyance, like Luke’s overacting in the OT.

Story:

The A story or plot was simple, get away from them big ass ships. There was a tension there, much like you have in movies like It Follows, where the dread is always there always present, always harassing. There was a tension there of will they escape. It kept things pretty tight. Then, of course, there was the Resistance internal politicking, but that actually should have been fleshed out just a bit more.

The first B plot of Rey and Luke was interesting. Watching the young hero try to bring Luke back was fascinating and a nice twist on the Campbellian reluctant hero that Luke was in the beginning of ANH. There was a bit too much bloat in some of the early scenes, but not enough to say this movie was awful. Then the interactions between Rey and Kylo was interesting and created a balance between the two stories about what happened on the night Ben Solo became Kylo Ren.

The second B Plot with Finn was, again the weakest part of the movie, and it could have been cut without there being too much lost in the film. I would have preferred them doing something else. But to fully explain what would be too spoilery and this isn’t tagged as spoiler territory.

Third, the visuals.

This was the most visually impressive Star Wars to date. Every shot had a purpose and every shot told the story. Rian Johnson used the images to show the story and not have it told in dialogue, like what we saw in the prequels. The tension between Luke and Rey was palpable from the beginning and there wasn’t a word of dialogue for some time. You could see Kylo’s struggle, without having it be told to us. You could see, at the end, the futility of the Resistance. And the beauty of the Force vision and some of the moments in this movie, like Snoke’s chamber, was something to behold. We haven’t had a director have vision like this since Empire. ROTJ, the Prequels, even Rogue One and TFA were all over the place stylistically, this was well done.

So far as the big 3 movie items are concerned, TLJ gets a passing grade. If I were to grade it out of 100 it would be a solid 80, or a well put together movie. Were there

Now for some genre-specific reasons I liked this movie and consider it well put together.

Action:

The action scenes were very well done. You could tell who was doing what, when it was happening, the motivation for the actions, and so forth. The action was easy to follow both mentally and visually and there was nothing confusing. If you want to see the opposite of what I mean, go watch any of the transformers movies. Those things were choreographed by complete slapdicks.

The Science Fantasy Feel:

This truly felt like a Star Wars movie. There were no trade disputes or midichlorians. This felt like a space opera. The Force felt like the Force, some mystical energy field that controlled people and allowed itself to be controlled. If I may go into fantasy writer mode for a moment, magic is a spectrum on the one end you have clear magic like a Brandon Sanderson novel where if you do x y happens. In one of his novels if you consume steel you can push metal away from yourself if the metal is lighter than you or push yourself away from metal if it is heavier than you. the other end of the spectrum is the LOTR magic where it is ill explained and doesn’t do a whole lot. The Force is a middle ground between these two in that we know kind of what it does and so it can kind of be used to resolve plot problems but ultimately cannot win the day, that is up to a human choice and human action. The Prequels tried to make it too Sandersonian. The OT had it be too mysterious, and therefore made the ending of ANH be a bit too convenient that Luke used the force to change the direction of the proton torpedoes. TLJ made it fit in the middle so certain plot points could be resolved and done well.

The Ring theory of story telling:

The Star Wars narrative uses the ring theory of story telling wherein parts of the story mirror each other. Luke’s story did exactly that. His story in this movie fit within his ring that was started waaaaaay back in ANH. It was fascinating to see it, from first moments of the movie to the end.

Rian Johnson’s Choices:

I will come out and say it, Rian doing what he did and this trilogy doing what it’s doing is the best thing possible for Star Wars. It expands the universe so that it doesn’t follow a family. It makes the galaxy bigger and it gives the galaxy room to grow in different and exciting directions. I keep going back to that scene at the very end with the little kid, he’s a nobody, but he has a future in this galaxy. The way Star Wars, particularly post OT Star Wars, was set up was going to make this be a Skywalker saga and keep the galaxy small. This choice was brilliant.

Now, somethings I could have done without, the Porgs for example, and other things. But, I still liked them better than the Ewoks. they weren’t important and their actions weren’t important and weren’t movie breaking like the Ewoks.

Conclusion:

This movie is a solid 85/100. Not the best movie in the Star Wars universe, that still belongs to Empire. Not the worst (looking at you Attack of the Clones). It has some merits. It, of course, has its flaws. It is by no means a perfect movie. But its flaws are overcome by just how good this movie is. Change Finn’s b-plot and let the dramatic moments sit and this movie could have been so much better. But, even still, I find this movie to be a good movie. And I think many fans will come around after a second viewing.



Note: Every movie starts out with an "average" grade of 50 and goes up and down from there. Attack of the Clone (the worst one) gets a 30. Empire earned a 98. I haven't seen a movie that earned a 100 yet.


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## Gryphos (Dec 18, 2017)

So I have a lot of conflicting opinions on TLJ. Visually it's stunning, with some moments that literally left me gaping, like when Admiral Holdo ripped through the First Order fleet, or the gorgeous framing of Kylo's face-off with Luke. I enjoyed the comedy a lot, and I feel it helps keep the film from being too dark (since at the end of the day, Star Wars should be fun and adventurous). There are also loads of individual moments I love, like Rose's sister's sacrifice at the beginning, or the cool Rey/Kylo teamup against Snoke's guards. However, the more I think about it, the more I find myself disappointed both by the film's construction, and by the direction it chose to go.

Pretty much everything to do with Finn and Rose's subplot was dodgy. So they need to get onto Snoke's ship, but to do that, they need a codebreaker. Wouldn't it have been so much better and more concise if Rose knew how to codebreak? Then it would be a scenario whereby they combine her technical knowledge with Finn's knowledge about the First Order – and boom! you've got a good buddy-spy story going. But no, instead the film wastes so much time on a detour to Planet Fat Cat. It's quite baffling. Also, I'm not sure about the apparent romance between Finn and Rose (and not just because I'm still hoping Finn gets together with Poe).

Now, as for Rey. I was never one of those people claiming that in TFA she was a 'mary-sue' (a stupid and overused term that imo has no place in literary criticism) because she beat Kylo. I enjoyed in this film when Snoke hung a lantern on that, saying how Kylo's defeat was less an indicator of Rey's prowess than one of Kylo's incompetence. However, I do feel as though the film is … I dunno … _cheating_ when it comes to Rey's abilities. It's one thing to say Rey was able to beat a wounded, mentally-tormented Kylo, but now she's able to fight off Snoke's super duper elite guards? How??? As far as I know, being strong in the force doesn't automatically mean you're a great martial artist. The problem here isn't that Rey is a great fighter; it's that the new trilogy hasn't done enough to justify this being the case.

Honestly, the same goes for Rey's force abilities. Maybe it's just me, but I think it's incredibly cheap just to say 'Rey is _really_ strong in the force' and have that be the sole explanation for her picking up force abilities so quickly. I had this problem in TFA when she used the mind-trick on that stormtrooper (how does she even know what a mind-trick is?), and I have the same problem here. This problem could so easily be solved just by having Luke train her in the force. Have sequences that mirror Luke being trained by Yoda, and I would be much more able to believe her strength. As it is, Luke gives her one lesson about what the Force is, and that's it. We never see her honing her skills other than that one bit she swings a lightsaber.

Just so I don't ramble too long, I'll lastly mention one thing that ticks me off. We never learn who the fuck Snoke was! I swear this new trilogy has a major problem with establishing context. Why is the First Order so powerful? What's the deal with the New Republic that apparently existed? And now when Luke was talking about how he 'sensed Snoke had a hold on Kylo's mind' or something like that, I'm just here thinking 'WHO THE FUCK IS SNOKE?!!!' How can such an immensely powerful and seemingly old Sith lord just spring out of nowhere in the couple decades or so between now and the end of the original trilogy? Not everything needs an explanation, but some things definitely do, and Snoke's identity is one of them.


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## pmmg (Dec 18, 2017)

I think every MC is a Mary Sue in some regard.

I think the idea with Rey is that the force awakened in her, such that the force was acting on its own against its extinction and recreating balance, perhaps since Luke was not doing the job. Thus, she has the force whether she wants it or not. Don't know really.

I really liked the movie, and feel very disinclined to pick on it. I like Kilo and Rey, and wanted more of Mark Hamill, but...

But, one big glaring issue I find my brain keeps asking about is the whole idea of the big ships chasing the rebel cruiser. For me, this seemed kind of small in scale for an epic type movie. But more than that, I found I was asking about running out of fuel in space. If your ship is already going faster than the other ship, and the other ship cannot increase speed, it should require no fuel to maintain it. Further, if you are going faster than them, you should just increase distance indefinitely... A few more issues like that, but I will stop there. Maybe I missed something about why the ship needed to keep spending fuel, but I don't think I did. That has actually been a complaint many have had with star wars all along, is that the ships seem to be showing motion as if they are in an atmosphere and not space, but for the most part I over look it cause its cool.

I too loved the set designs, and character interactions. I think, this might be the first Star Wars in a long time, I might want to go back and see again.


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## Gryphos (Dec 18, 2017)

I just realised something else dodgy, that Luke, who fought to redeem Darth Vader, the second most evil person in the galaxy, considered killing Ben Solo upon sensing darkness in him. I mean, he doesn't go through with it, but even getting as far as drawing his lightsaber seems to me like a hefty betrayal of his original trilogy arc.


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## pmmg (Dec 18, 2017)

Well, for that matter, the very existence of the force awakens and the newest one, negates the entire struggle of the original series. What does it matter if he saves Vader and rids the universe of his evil if the force will just re-awaken and pick new jedi's and siths to restore balance? Apparently, it was an act of futility. Looking at this movie, Princess Leia seemed to be with a pretty small band. What happened? I guess they failed to restore freedom to the galaxy.


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## Gryphos (Dec 18, 2017)

pmmg said:


> Well, for that matter, the very existence of the force awakens and the newest one, negates the entire struggle of the original series. What does it matter if he saves Vader and rids the universe of his evil if the force will just re-awaken and pick new jedi's and siths to restore balance? Apparently, it was an act of futility. Looking at this movie, Princess Leia seemed to be with a pretty small band. What happened? I guess they failed to restore freedom to the galaxy.



That's perhaps my biggest problem with the new trilogy. Like, I get the idea of wanting the struggle between light and dark to be cyclical, but you still need to justify the physical method by which that happens. The original trilogy ends with the Empire being destroyed and presumably the establishment of the Republic. You can't just go into the next film like 'oh btw, the Empire is back and it has the power to crush the Republic'. There's a dissonance there that, if nothing else, needs to be explained.

It would make a lot more sense if the new trilogy's battle was fought from a position of dominance, trying to maintain what was fought for in the original trilogy, with the First Order being the reactionary, dark-side equivalent of the Rebel Alliance rather than just Empire 2.0. Then you still get that Campbellian cyclicality, except it's more of an oscillation than a cycle. This would even fit better with the prequels, which do indeed start with the light side in a position of power and end with the dark side replacing it.

The new trilogy represents, more than anything, a missed opportunity.


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## pmmg (Dec 18, 2017)

I think really they represent Disney thinking its a good time to come up with stuff and make money, but... I intend to stay with it, though I would be okay if they finished this tale and then did not do any more.

I think the works by Timothy Zahn, who wrote an after empire series does a better job of working with the pieces left over. I am a little disappointed the new movies just entirely discount all of the supporting materials Star Wars has had for the last 30 years.


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## Steerpike (Dec 18, 2017)

If you can have Luke, with no combat experience, say he’s shot womprats or whatever they are, be thrown into a fighting class starship he’s never seen, and blow up the largest, most technologically complex space station in the universe, I think you can have Rey, who has spent her life defending herself on a barren planet and is established to be good at hand to hand combat, finish off some guards. 

The criticisms of Rey sit better with me when they come from people who acknowledge the same issues with the male lead in the original movies. 

In the grand scheme of things, Luke never gets very much training at all.


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## pmmg (Dec 18, 2017)

I'm not sure why it would need to be turned into the male character this and the female character that. Luke was actually a pretty poor hero, he was shot down, crashed or damaged every ship he ever flew, lost his co-pilot, lost his droid, lost his wingman, had his hand chopped off, failed to save his mentor, failed the test on Dagobah, and had to be rescued from the emperor by Vader. Heck, he could not even get his X-wing out of the swamp.  I am not sure he was really a paragon of eternal champion himself. Rey would probably be a better combatant than Luke was prior to ROTJ. Maybe after. Does it matter? I think we can walk and chew gun at the same time. I allowed to pick on Rey if I feel she needs it. I like her character so far, but I do feel she is being shown to be a chosen one, I don't think Luke ever really was, he was just the son of a chosen one.

In fact, the real bonafide unflappable hero of star wars is princess leia. She did not even give away the location of the rebel base when she was tortured.


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## Dark Squiggle (Dec 19, 2017)

The only thing I took away from the movie was that in spite of Rey being a woman, I couldn't differentiate her from Luke  in my mind at all. I have this problem sometimes, where I think of two or more people as the same person, which is usually bad for me. Calling people the wrong names, repaying emotional debts and bearing grudges with the wrong person, even failing to get know someone because the previous person keeps appearing in my mind are just some of the issues that spring from this. Anyway, I really thought I was watching Luke the whole time.


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## Gryphos (Dec 19, 2017)

Steerpike said:
			
		

> If you can have Luke, with no combat experience, say he’s shot womprats or whatever they are, be thrown into a fighting class starship he’s never seen, and blow up the largest, most technologically complex space station in the universe, I think you can have Rey, who has spent her life defending herself on a barren planet and is established to be good at hand to hand combat, finish off some guards.



In essence I agree. It would have been much better had A New Hope done more to establish Luke's ability as a pilot. Though, him drawing a connection between piloting a fighter and his past experience with speeders and shooting critters, while farfetched, is still better than how Rey's combat ability is justified. In TFA we get one quick scene of her fending off two goons – nice – but the next time she fights is at the end of the film against Kylo; too much time passes between the fleeting establishment of her ability and the payoff at the climax. It would have been far better had she had another hand-to-hand fight scene during the second act, or even just a solid verbal acknowledgement of the fact that, yes, she knows how to fight.

I'm also not sure that Luke using the force to accurately shoot a torpedo and Rey using the force to level up her combat skills against Kylo are truly equivalent. From a conceptual, philosophical angle, when Luke shoots the torpedo, he's giving himself over to the force in a single moment, trusting that when he pulls the trigger, destiny will let him hit his mark. It makes sense with the idea of being in touch with the force as an all-encompassing presence. With Rey, it's more a case of tapping into the force and suddenly being able to, what, swing a lightsaber faster? It doesn't jell with the established concept of the force in the same way.



> In the grand scheme of things, Luke never gets very much training at all.



Totally. In ANH it would have been better had there been another scene of teaching Luke about force and giving himself over to it, to better lead into the climax. But there is a fair amount of force training in The Empire Strikes Back, which is more than Rey gets in TLJ, which is almost zero.


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## Sheilawisz (Dec 24, 2017)

I have already watched _The Last Jedi_ and I disliked it very much.

The visuals were really good, but in general the story was poor and the movie is much longer than it should be. The whole relationship thing between Finn and Rose feels like cheap filler more than anything else, and... really, they go to some wacky casino planet to find a codebreaker while the rebel fleet is chased by the bad guys?

I mean... _really?!_

That was an incredibly stupid part of the movie. I agree with Gryphos: It would have been much better if Finn had been tasked with leading a codebreakers team into the main enemy ship, but no! They wanted the detour thing for some crazy reason, and it feels like nothing but filler and garbage at least to me.

Also, the rebels had never looked so pathetic.

To see the tiny rebel fleet getting chased like that all that time was almost comedic. Also, as far as I know fuel shortages had never been a problem for ships in the Star Wars universe! As the ships were falling one by one, and the escape pods after that I whispered to my sister beside me that in the end there would be only a chicken still fighting for the resistance.

That leads us to the main problem that I have with these new movies, and I agree with Pmmg and Gryphos again:

_The Return of the Jedi_ ends with our heroes all happy and celebrating, parties everywhere, good has won! The Empire has been destroyed! The adventure and perils and everything were worth it! Then, we get _The Force Awakens_ and suddenly we have Empire 2.0 and they have a powerful fleet and a new and bigger Death Star and the Republic is screwed and the Jedi are gone and the rebels are a low-budget and totally outgunned little organization _again!_

Come on! I mean... _Come on!_ That makes totally no sense.

I think that Disney wants to _disnefy_ the hell out of Star Wars, so they can make it their own and actually reinvent the whole thing. I love Disney, but I think that they are wrong with this new Star Wars trilogy. They are going to ruin Star Wars, at least for the fans that have been with the franchise since a long time ago.

Curiously, my sister (not a Star Wars fan before) loved _The Last Jedi_ and now she is a great admirer of Kylo Ren.


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## Penpilot (Dec 24, 2017)

To me the movie felt like it was rushed and needed at least another draft to smooth all the rough edges off of the plot. So many things were not well thought out. To use an analogy, I liked that they travelled from LA to New, but they sure took the most awkward and bumpy roads, not to mention some of those roads weren't even necessary. 

I didn't have a problem with the chase scene at first, but the more I thought about it, the more it didn't make sense. I could buy the running out of fuel, but there are so many issues with the way they set up the situation.

First, if you can get one ship safely away without the First Order noticing, why not load the rebel leadership onto it and get them to safety? 

Second, if there's only one First Order ship with the ability to track them, and there are three rebel ships, why not have them all split up?

The First Order can only follow one, so the odds are that two thirds of the rebels will get away. It's probably a lot more than what ended surviving. All of them fit on the Falcon.

OR better yet, third, transfer all the rebels onto two ships, then have the empty ship turn and do that lightspeed ram into the ship with the tracking device, then the First Order can't follow when the other two ships jump. 

The Fin and Rose plot felt unnecessary. In fact, to me, it felt so out of place. And when Rose "saved" Fin, it was such a silly act. Two ships crashing like that, neither of them had any right surviving.

Luke and Rey plot, had some really awkward moments. Luke and his milking, really? Luke and that animal enjoyed that just a little too much. Yoda showing up and being a big goofball and using that completely out of place and distinctly non-Star Wars dialogue about 'page turners'. In the Empire Strikes back, Yoda was putting on an act, pretending to be a goofball when he first meets Luke, but when he reveals himself, that silliness goes away. He says funny things, but he has noble presence about him.


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## evolution_rex (Dec 24, 2017)

Man I loved the film. Honestly shocked at all the hate. Best one out of the new series yet. I guess some of the more technical issues brought up about certain elements feeling like filler or the plot holes regarding the ship battles aren't perfect but the how they took the characters was amazing.


Reaver said:


> Anyone can be a Jedi I guess.


What do you mean by this? If you're talking about the film's themes, you heavily misinterpreted it.


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## pmmg (Dec 24, 2017)

Some time has passed and I am turning on this movie a bit. I think it was still a fun one to watch, but I find I am shifting from these new set of movies really deserving the role of official canon, and not all the years of other supporting material that has come out way before any of these were conceived. I feel I thinking I must now consider these alternate Star Wars, fun films for what they are, but too removed from the actual meaning and events of the originals to really be part of them.

I would still see this one again. That is not a feeling I had with Rouge One (though I did see it twice).

Honestly, I am not up for everything that can be thought up to be in the star wars universe. I don't care for more Rouge movies, and I don't care about Young Han Solo. Just the big story please.


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## evolution_rex (Dec 25, 2017)

I just don't understand what you meant by 'everyone can be a Jedi I guess'. Did you believe the film meant that literally, were you referring to it as a criticism?

Also, I hate Disney as much as the next guy, like seriously I'm terrified by the aspect Disney recently bought 20th Century Fox, but I separate that from the art itself. And separating the cynical reality side of the making of the film, I feel they're doing a pretty good job on these Star Wars films. There's a lot of issues with things but a day later and mulling over all the criticisms I had and people have told me and I'm still confident that it's the best of these Disney films. Alas, I completely understand this being a breaking point for a lot of fans; if you didn't like the direction things were heading in Force Awakens or Rogue One you're not gonna like this. Force Awakens forced you to accept a lot stuff and instead of immediately getting angry by it a lot of us thought we'd just have to wait for the next film for things to make more sense, but it didn't. What really ticks me off though are the people like liked Rogue One and Force Awakens but didn't like this one, that's just weird to me because this has practically the same amount of flaws with several improvements.


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## Penpilot (Dec 25, 2017)

evolution_rex said:


> What really ticks me off though are the people like liked Rogue One and Force Awakens but didn't like this one, that's just weird to me because this has practically the same amount of flaws with several improvements.



Well, I liked Force Awakens, Rogue One, and I'm meh on the Last Jedi. Personally, I find the movies have been trending downwards in quality. The Force Awakens felt like a more internally consistent movie in terms of tone, plot, and character than the Last Jedi was.

The quibbles I have with the Last Jedi have nothing to do with the directions taken. I quite like the direction's taken, but since this is a writing forum, I'll link it to writing. Any idea can work, but the trick is in the execution of those ideas, and to me, they didn't execute those ideas very well. The execution is clumsy at best.

This is one of those films where I was entertained during the first viewing, but on subsequent viewings, things don't hold up as well. The cracks start to show in a big way and become wider and wider to the point where they start to affect ones opinion on the movie.

Now no film is flawless. You can look back at the original series and see that, but on subsequent viewings after the flaws become evident, they don't become wider and wider, so they don't affect  ones enjoyment of the film as much.

I mean just look at Poe Dameron's character arc. This flaw wasn't apparent to me until I was discussing it with a friend, and we were joking around. He's a hotshot that need to learn restraint, that when leading, discretion is the better part of valor. At the beginning, he sacrifices a whole bomber wing to destroy one ship, and at the end of the day it wasn't worth the cost.

At the end, instead of maybe wanting to lead everyone out against the First Order and go out in a blaze of glory, he shows he's wiser and realizes that following those crystal fox creatures will lead them out a previously unknown entrance. Leia even says something to the effect of follow him, indicating that he has become a true leader.

And what happens? He leads them right into a dead end, undercutting his arc. If Rey hadn't come along, they would have all died because of Poe.

Dialing it back a few steps with Poe's arc, they used cliche of keeping an insignificant secret to create false tension. All Holdo had to say to Poe was, "I have a plan" and that would have been the end of that. Instead, she tells one of the Rebel's most trusted commanders nothing, and that leads to Poe staging a mutiny, which he should have been shot dead on the spot for. And then, everyone forgives the mutiny and forgets about it because oh they like that old scoundrel Poe.

This could have been a legitimate point of tension if they just cut the secret BS and put Poe and Holdo on opposing sides to a legitimate argument and gave them both solid ground to stand on. Have Holdo say something to the effect of knowing when to risk all and fight and when to run, which could have been a nice exclamation point to her story and to Poe's arc.

The film felt like they wanted to go all contrarian and subvert all the expectations the fans had built up, but they didn't do a good job earning those subversive moment's. it felt like they just flipped all the directions without taking the time to set most of  them up enough.


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## evolution_rex (Dec 26, 2017)

Reaver said:


> It's a criticism because,  to me, the movie made it apparent that there's nothing special about The Force or being a Jedi. Look at the scene with Luke and the A.T.A.Ts.  Those giant machines laying down all that firepower at Luke and he's completely unharmed. When I saw that I thought "F**K YEAH! Luke is the ultimate Jedi Master. But then a moment later, the movie says: " Nope. Just Luke using astral projection or whatever you want to call it. So f**k you, The Force is bullshit."  Overall, for me, the entire movie was a series of letdowns.


Wait, what? How does that make the force BS? His astral projection thing was him using the force. The force was never implied to just be moving objects with your mind. This was an example of just being really, really powerful and doing something we hadn't seen in the films before. I don't get what you mean.

Also the film makes clear only that the books and dogma attached to the Jedi was largely unimportant, and even then you see that Rey stole the Jedi texts at the end. Luke's own cyncism toward the Jedi was portrayed as wrong within the film and he realizes that toward the end. Nowhere does it say anything about the force being not important nor the Jedis, quite the opposite. The little boy using the force at the end and Rey being 'nobody' is a message that anyone can make a difference and you don't have to be a Chosen One.


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## pmmg (Dec 26, 2017)

The movie did have a very anti-hero theme to it. Though, I too wanted something more from the AT-AT scene other than Luke was a projection. It would have been very cool if he would have used the force to just sweep them all out of the way. Which would have been a great culmination of Luke's growth from earlier movies where he could not pull his x-wing out of the swamp, and was shot down facing these same platforms before. In Empire, we do see Vader block the lasers with just his hand, so its not unknown that the force alone is enough for this. Luke could have been more Bad-ass, but as Mark Hamill says, its not really his movie anymore.

I don't know, I feel like I am up for the ride, but I don't expect the story to match up well anymore. For me the concept of the Force awakening is along the lines of the Force was going extinct, and it decided instead to not let that happen and spontaneously awakened in the character of Rey. This could be similarly happening all over the galaxy, such as shown with the boy at the end.


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## evolution_rex (Dec 27, 2017)

Look man, I'm not arguing with you, You don't have to get angry at me. You're not the first person I've heard say similar things and simply don't understand how you're equating one thing into another.  I genuinely am curious on what you're trying to say and I don't understand your point. I'm asking for clarification. You don't want to clarify? Fine, but don't act like I'm forcing you to like the movie.

You said: anyone can be a Jedi I guess.
Then I said: what do you mean
then you said: they made the force seem unimportant and useless
then I asked how
Then eventually you gave your reasons: Luke did an astral projection thing

I'm asking how does Luke using astral projection = the force being unimportant? and how does the force being unimportant = anybody can be a Jedi? None of those things have to do with one another, which is why I keep asking. I'm not trying to change your opinion on anything.


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## Annoyingkid (Jan 14, 2018)

- Luke Skywalker's portrayal was diametrically opposed to his ep 6 characterization. 
- It conflicts with the narrative of The Force Awakens. He left a map for the rebellion to find him. So he clearly didn't go there to just die.
- Mark Hamill completely disagreed with the portrayal. 

Yet Rian Johnson went ahead with his "vision" anyway. 
He knew that Yoda only put on that act of being a senile eccentric in ESB only to test Luke's patience. Yet he has Yoda do it again. Even though Luke already knew the real him.
So much backstory and continuity sacrificed for the sake of his "vision" and political message. 
He tore down far more than he set up. To the point where I won't be seeing the next one. There's no hook for ep 9.

One can tell much about a writer through their work. In Rian Johnson I saw arrogance and a flagrant contempt for what came before.


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## Black Dragon (Jan 20, 2018)

OK. I finally saw this movie today.

Overall, I enjoyed it.  However, I think that many of the criticisms found in this thread are valid.  I am particularly perturbed by the lack of explanation regarding Snoke.  Where did this insanely powerful Sith Lord come from?  How did he manage to resurrect the Empire from the ashes and obliterate the Republic? 

So, who wants to write an analysis of this movie for our Mythic Scribes blog?  We can potentially run several different articles from different perspectives.


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## ascanius (Mar 13, 2018)

I watched this last night, it is by far the worst movie I have ever seen, almost as bad as Eragon.  This movie made no sense at all, every single plot point relied on chance, It was drowning in socjus political propaganda.

First if you can just light speed through ships and destroy a fleet, why the flying **** didn't they just do that to the deathstar, battle ships, hell every single battle in the entire star wars series.  Are we to believe people advanced enough to master interstellar travel incapable harnessing it as a weapon until now?

Time seems to be very screwy with this the new star wars space travel because it seemed like Rey was on the isl of milked sea giraffes for months or at least a good week, learning well nothing, oh I forgot, how to reach out.  All the while the snail space chase seems to have had only a day pass.  How much time actually passed? anyone know.

It is mentioned multiple times that the force is a balance and one side of the force will rise up to balance the other.  Snoke even says that rey is a response to Kylo.  So Snoke is....  how does he fit into the the whole balance of the force?  is it like a three way balance, or four if we include luke, maybe I'm getting this all wrong it was a very incoherent movie.

What the hell was the whole thing with Rey and the mirrors?  What was with the monologue?  Why is the dark side suddenly a physical essence.

Now, yoda?  WTF!  So basically yoda and every jedi has been taught about the force, how to use it but most importantly WHEN AND WHY.  Or the moral way to use the force, not in anger, not for vengeance, to have respect for the force etc..  funny how it's kinda like religion.  its the reason why Luke went uncharacteristically paranoid, maybe all that green milk addled his brains or something, because he feared a evil, immoral influence on his nephew.  Then comes yoda and says let the past die, yeah all that knowledge about right and wrong the new generation doesn't need that, they woke.

casino planet was pointless, unless one likes to be preached at about social injustices and get some social justice afterwards by disrupting their party for a night?  Yeah way to go Flin and Rose, you really showed them.  This completely ignores the absolute stupidity of the whole arms dealer oppressor that Rose brings up.  Give me one reason why a very totalitarian/fascist/communist/authoritarian government is going to outsource their weapons to a third party who is selling to their enemy?  From everything, even in the last movie it gives the impression that they have complete control over the means of production.  It doesn't make any sense, unless its not supposed to in the movie but in.....

Then we get to the bitchy incapable leader, sorry I mean strong female character. Amilyn Holdo, who in all her glorious wisdom to teach Poe about non violent solutions or as Leia tells him later "She was more interested in protecting the light than she was seeming like a hero."  Right gotcha, like how withholding important information that impacts their very survival, even a "there is a plan" has nothing to do with protecting the light/hope/whatever.  No she lets him believe there is no hope, they are going to die, so he goes out and acts proactively instead of doing nothing.  And in the end she lets how many die, lets see 400ppl - 10 = 390 ppl dead, and Poe who lost about 20 ppl.  And no simply sacrificing herself doesn't make her heroic, it makes her an idiot for not doing it sooner.  Did anyone else notice that all the leaders were women?  Well they woke i guess.


So basically Poe goes from being an aggressive, heroic fighter to a child in need of instruction?

and then there is Lukes arch, Lins, Rey..... I can go on.

I really didn't like it there was so much stuff that made me go wtf and pulled me out of the movie.  I really hate when movies or books are used for unashamed propaganda.


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## pmmg (Mar 13, 2018)

I feel your pain, but worst movie ever is quite a stretch...I saw the Last Air Bender...

I've seen this 2 or 3 times, not sure. I fear I must pick on it pretty hard as time goes on, and would be somewhat relentless today. Some questions I might ask.... Why do bombers rely on gravity to drop their payload in space? Why do bombers have to fly over their targets? Where does gravity in a bomber when the girl falls of the ladder come from? Where are the bombers when Poe is flying about taunting the imperial commanders? And were not the Y-wings and B-Wings already bombers? Seems they had figured out how to fire from a distance away....And that is just the beginning....

Still, its not the worst thing I have ever scene. Though, I do feel, on my own, I have decided this new stuff is alternate story stuff. The expanded universe is still the story I would look to for continuing Star Wars.


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## Black Dragon (Mar 13, 2018)

ascanius said:


> it is by far the worst movie I have ever seen



You must have missed Alvin and the Chipmunks 2: The Squeakquel.  

I sat through it with my daughter just last week.  Here is a highlight:


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## skip.knox (Mar 13, 2018)

pmmg, because ... movies. I mean, from the very first movie we have sound effects in space, complete with swooshes, so it's a little late to be demanding accurate physics from Star Wars.

ascanius, they don't fly through the enemy for the same reason as kamikaze tactics in WWII--it's a suicide run. Doesn't scale well.

I only saw two sides of the Force--the good guys and the bad guys. Star Wars has never been especially subtle about that.

I was not troubled at all at seeing women as leaders. Why ever should that matter? We've seen all men as leaders, without comment. I only care if they are good actors. These did a decent job.

Totalitarian governments have no problem with outsourcing weapons. Take a look around.

I won't bother replying in detail. Some folks pick this movie apart. For myself, I was fine with it. It was fun, it furthered the legend, it did no particular violence to the Star Wars universe. I speak as one who has survived decades with DC and Marvel. There were some obvious plot jiggery--I agree about the commander withholding her plan from her own folks. That was done so we didn't have to watch whole scenes of people trying to talk her out of it. Again, it's fine.  I paid money to be entertained for two hours. I was entertained for two hours.

Worst movie? Prowl around in the basement at Netflix for a while. *shudder*


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## pmmg (Mar 13, 2018)

Now we see why Luke lost so much hope.


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## Yora (Mar 14, 2018)

I think it's the fourth best Star Wars movie. It's the first in over 30 years to actually capture the visual style that is essential to Star Wars. It's not a good movie by any stretch, but I did not hate it when I came out of it, and even considered seeing it a second time to look at some details.


pmmg said:


> Still, its not the worst thing I have ever scene. Though, I do feel, on my own, I have decided this new stuff is alternate story stuff. The expanded universe is still the story I would look to for continuing Star Wars.


Classic Star Wars ended in 1998. The only good things that came after it are Jedi Knight and KotOR.


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