# Element for the Villain? - Evil People=Evil Powers?



## Amanita (Jun 16, 2011)

Hello,

first the little question that only concerns me personally.  I have to assign a (chemical) element to my main (magcially talented) villain and I'm not sure which one to use. Which one(s) would make you think "evil"?

Now the general question for all of you. What do you think about the equation "evil people=evil powers"? In many stories it's Necromancy, magic taken from peoples' life force, magic gained by pacts with evil spirits and the like for the villains, while the "good guys" use different powers. Do you like this differentiation or would you prefer to see the same abilites applied for good or evil or something in between by various people?


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## myrddin173 (Jun 16, 2011)

I have never really liked when the "power" the enemy uses is inherently evil.  I prefer the belief that power/magic is neither good nor evil it just _is_. So I suggest not having an "evil" element but use a common element's powers for bad reasons.


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## Amanita (Jun 16, 2011)

> So I suggest not having an "evil" element but use a common element's powers for bad reasons.


That actually is the direction I'm intending to go.  I'm just curious as to what elements you here would associate with evil if any.
And I'd like to get a few thoughts, examples of how others are handling their characters' powers.


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## Chilari (Jun 16, 2011)

So what you're suggesting is ways in which elements might be used for evil purposes? Perhaps particularly where the evil purposes are more obvious than the good purposes?

I don't know much about chemistry, but lead might be a good one, being as it is poisonous. Also mercury for the same reason. With both, you could involve madness brought about by the poisoning. Or you could try something combustible in air or highly volatile.


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## BeigePalladin (Jun 16, 2011)

Hmmmm, chemical elements... the noble gasses, maybe, as they're kinda evil (do't mix, toxic, attractive), but definatley a gass, I just see them as more 'evil'.... ;P
I'm another of the 'no particularly evil elements' group, but then, I don't believe in 'good' or 'evil', so that could explain why I feel that way.
along the same lines, using chemichal elements, I see a very good posibility for 'artifical' heros, using the unstable elements that humans 'created', which could be rather cool 

along the lines of my own evil elements, I think the best one I did was Life - it's the kind of thing that makes most people do a double take, which i liked, pluss it's not something you can overcome with brute force. made the thing more intresting...


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## Derin (Jun 16, 2011)

Chilari said:


> I don't know much about chemistry, but lead might be a good one, being as it is poisonous. Also mercury for the same reason. With both, you could involve madness brought about by the poisoning. Or you could try something combustible in air or highly volatile.



Lead wouldn't be very dangerous. It's fairly easy to manipulate via normal means and lead magic wouldn't make it that much more flexible. Mercury is similar, and its rarity makes it even harder to play with. A mercury or lead (or iron) mage would be better employed in food and water purification than world domination, although they'd be cool villains for a Captain Planetesque plot.

The easiest, of course, would be oxygen, but if you give him oxygen he's basically all-powerful. I don't see how an oxygen mage could be defeated beyond tricking him into destroying himself. Flourine and chlorine are also good choices, but calcium is better because it's not only extremely combustible in the right form but the most common metal in the human body. 

I'm definitely not a fan of having "evil" powers. I think it makes the villain a victim of his own magic instead of a bad guy, which can sometimes be written well but usually just turns him into "designated bad guy".


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## Amanita (Jun 17, 2011)

Thank you 



> So what you're suggesting is ways in which elements might be used for evil purposes? Perhaps particularly where the evil purposes are more obvious than the good purposes?


That's about right.  I've thought about this myself already but I'm curious about opinion from others because I'm not sure if my mind isn't set on some things no one else would think about that way.
It's funny how you, Derin, are suggesting all the elements I'm already using for the protagonists. The two male ones have fluorine and chlorine and the female ones calcium and oxygen. And she's not invincible, ordinary weapons (that don't depend on fire) harm her just like anyone else and she's affected by poisons as well, especially after having used her powers too much. 
I like the suggestions for mercury or a noble gas. Mercury has something definitly creepy about it and it's also one of the traditional alchemistic elements which gives it lot's of historical background. Xenon would work quite well too, especially its ability to put people to sleep (or death) who don't even realise what's going on. And a noble gas would suit his elitist thinking.
Another one I've been considering is sulphur. It isn't very dangerous on its own but form many toxic compounds and also many compounds linked to death and decay. Sulphur is also associated with hell, sin and the devil of course, these don't exist in my world, but might give the right impression.


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## sashamerideth (Jun 17, 2011)

Mercury, arsenic, I know there are more elements that are poisonous to us, but aren't there micro organisms that are arsenic based or use arsenic in some way? 

I think there can be good things and bad things, but using something established as inherently good to do evil, that is the sign of a true evil genius.


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## Derin (Jun 17, 2011)

The problem with the more conventionally poisonous elements is that they're quite rare. Sulphur might work, it's fairly common.

Noble gases, again, tend to be relatively rare compared to things like oxygen and iron. And they are, by nature, not very versatile. I think there are a couple of chemicals able to bond with a noble gas but not many.

I forgot nitrogen before. Nitrogen is an awesome one. Nitrogen is necessary for plant life (in a digestible form) but rarer than other plant minerals, so its availability determines crop growth. Fertilisers are almost always nitrogen enhancers. On the other hand, it's great for suffocating people. Flooding an area with gaseous nitrogen not only deprives people of oxygen, but the CO2 cycles out of their lungs even better than normal, so they _don't know they're suffocating_. Like CO poisoning but faster and it leaves no trace (nitrogen is an ordinary atmospheric component in high amounts, unlike noble gases). It's also a key component in our amino acids if you want a sadistic villain. And, of course, it's used in nitro triiodide, which is great for pranks.

Sulphur is fairly common and versatile. I'm a bit wary of using stereotypically "evil" elements, but you've given your protagonist control over one of the most sadistic gas weapons in existence, so I guess it cancels out. Your protagonists have some of the most powerful elements in existence; the girls can explode anything at will and the boys can make this.



sashamerideth said:


> Mercury, arsenic, I know there are more elements that are poisonous to us, but aren't there micro organisms that are arsenic based or use arsenic in some way?



That arsenic paper was a really shoddy one. It got a huge reception because the graduate who wrote it was working for NASA and they threw their weight behind it for some incomprehensible reason, but the science is a little lax. It *could* be interpreted as incorporating arsenic into DNA, but it could also be interpreted as just tolerating all the arsenic lying around without using it, which is more likely because we already know lots of bacteria can do that. I think someone in America is doing further testing on it.


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## Waltershores (Jun 18, 2011)

I enjoy when the heroes magic uses the same source as the villains and that magic is destructive when used.  This creates the problem for the hero of when the magic should be used.


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## BeigePalladin (Jun 18, 2011)

@ derin: the usefulness of some elements (such as mercuy and the noble gasses) relies on the nature of the magic. if it's pure manipulation, then Ill agree that it's not very usefull (whereas nitrogen, making up the majoriy of the air would be a case of 'I can kill the whle world easy'), however if Amanita's mages can create their element, then it becomes a lot more potent of an ability

and it does, as she said, fit the villains egotistical side 

though I do think nitrogen will be a very usefull element to control, so I'll vote for that as well


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## Derin (Jun 18, 2011)

BeigePalladin said:


> @ derin: the usefulness of some elements (such as mercuy and the noble gasses) relies on the nature of the magic. if it's pure manipulation, then Ill agree that it's not very usefull (whereas nitrogen, making up the majoriy of the air would be a case of 'I can kill the whle world easy'), however if Amanita's mages can create their element, then it becomes a lot more potent of an ability
> 
> and it does, as she said, fit the villains egotistical side
> 
> though I do think nitrogen will be a very usefull element to control, so I'll vote for that as well



If you can define where the element is created (and thus put it in someone's body), all elements have the power to be instantly lethal. Everything is toxic in the wrong place. Noble gases would take longer to kill at top killing speed than most other things but not enough to matter.

If you can't create it just anywhere (say, you can only create it in your hands, or you need line of sight or something), heavy metals become relatively useless. You'd be better off with iron to make a sword. You could give somebody mercury poisoning I guess since it's liquid at room temperature, but that's not an instant kill.

In terms of manipulation, one could make the more well-known toxins (like arsenic and mercury) more common in the fantasy world, but this would cause them to be less toxic as well. People who live in high arsenic areas become resistant, and populations who have been in such areas for a really long time can just about be considered immune.Mercury is harder but I've worked with bacteria that are resistant to mercury, lead and even cadmium, so it's firmly in the realm of possibility that a human population subjected to high levels of the stuff could evolve a biochemical way to deal with it. We're fairly different to bacteria but the laws of chemistry don't change.


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## Amanita (Jun 18, 2011)

Thank you for writing so much about this, I’ve actually been ashamed when posting this question because I thought it didn’t offer much food for thought, but obviously I’ve been wrong. 

My characters cannot create their elements, but they can get them to themselves from where ever they are occuring naturally. Their magic also has mental aspects which would make having a noble gas quite appealing because others can’t harm them that way then.

The character in question is someone who usually prefers letting others do the fighting over putting himself in danger. He furthers the war because he hopes to get rid of other powerful elemental magicians as well as great numbers of brave young men who know how to handle weapons. Both groups have already proven to be a danger to his goals. 
The elemental magicians mainly involved in fighting on his side already have their elements assigned to them, sodium, phosphorus, bromine and oxygen. Yes, the oxygen person is the same one who’s also a protagonist. She turns away from him but still fights for her country because she thinks the others are even worse for quite a while . They do realise at some point that the person this thread is about is the real enemy but it takes a while. 

Guns are already common but the soldiers are also trained in using swords because elemental magicians could meddle with their ammunition therefore iron magic could be quite useful in this regard. 
The most common uses of elemental magic in battle are those that involve fire or the manipulation of elements that serve vital functions in the human body. 

And a few things in Derin’s post I’d like to write something about.


> A mercury or lead (or iron) mage would be better employed in food and water purification than world domination


That’s what many of them do in the story set later in more peaceful times. 



> I'm definitely not a fan of having "evil" powers. I think it makes the villain a victim of his own magic instead of a bad guy


This can actually be a problem within my magic system but it’s mainly the two characters with chlorine and fluorine suffering from it. Fluorine magic isn’t exactly easy to control and when they try what you’re suggesting further down the thread, they almost get each other killed. If the calcium lady didn’t interfere it wouldn’t have been “almost.” I still wouldn’t call them victims of their magic though, they knew what they’re doing wasn’t very reasonable there. 

Nitrogen is a good one too, so common you almost forget about it.


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## Donny Bruso (Jun 26, 2011)

Sorry to revive an older thread, but I've been trapped away from internet access for two weeks, so now I get to deposit my two cents.

Pretty much anything can be poisonous in sufficient amounts, but especially the heavy metals section of the periodic table. Lead poisoning is the most common, but you can be poisoned by any heavy metal, including gold, silver, even iron.

Alkali metals are indeed highly reactive, though not enough to be as dangerous as a conventional explosive. As the people in your story have access to firearms, clearly they have access to black powder(or whatever you choose to call it) which is far more powerful than alkali metals.

If you really want to give your antagonist the power to mess with things, personally I suggest carbon. Everything organic is carbon based. Humans, plants, animals... Not sure on the exact chemistry of it, but it would certainly make him a force to be reckoned with.


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## Ice Queen (Jun 26, 2011)

^He's right. Although I think Mercury would be a cool one; maybe I just think it's pretty but if we're judging by the mad Hatter; it can make people's brains go all funny.


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## Derin (Jun 26, 2011)

Donny Bruso said:


> Alkali metals are indeed highly reactive, though not enough to be as dangerous as a conventional explosive. As the people in your story have access to firearms, clearly they have access to black powder(or whatever you choose to call it) which is far more powerful than alkali metals.



Depends. The alkali metals can be gathered together inside the victim's own body, unlike gunpowder.


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## Amanita (Jun 26, 2011)

> The alkali metals can be gathered together inside the victim's own body, unlike gunpowder.


That. And they use them to mess with people's nervous systems. Or hearts.  It's more useful for sneak attacks than for outright battle, though.

Thank you all, carbon can surely be a useful element as well, but I've decided to go with xenon and have him stay the power behind the scenes.


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## CicadaGrrl (Jun 26, 2011)

I would go with mercury.  It looks cool and is fun to play with, yet it has that deadly side of messing up your health and driving you nuts.  Most of my evil people are working out of the approximately same cosmology as the good people.  It's all in the way it is used.


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