# Society of sentient rats



## Gryphos (May 21, 2014)

So recently a tiny bit of inspiration came to me (as they do) and before I knew it I had an overwhelming urge to develop it further. Just something to put in the archives of ideas.

The idea was for a story set in a civilisation of sentient anthropomorphic rats. Basically picture your kind of Italian renaissance city, but inhabited by rats instead of humans. The story likely wouldn't expand too much on the world itself but focus on the single city.

What I've been brainstorming is how the society and its values would be inherently different from that of humans. One thought that's struck me is the fact that inheritance would be very different for a species that gives birth in litters. If a hum a king dies the title goes to their eldest, but with rats all the >6 children were born at the same time. My idea was that the king would name in his will who would inherit his title.

Then there's the general problem of having so many children. In the wild this isn't really a problem as very few survive to adulthood, but what about when predators aren't an issue. An immediate thought is that the population could still be kept at a reasonable rate of growth by disease (which did kill a lot of children by in ye olden days). But that detail's still bugging me.

Any other ideas on how a society of rats would differ from our own?


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## Trick (May 21, 2014)

Your two problems might solve each other. If too many offspring and succession issues don't overlap, I'm not sure what things do. In the setting you presented, I see the children offing each other left and right and having to face challenges set to them by their parents; the kind of challenges you might not survive. 

On another note, there would still be eldest children even in litters since they typically come out one at a time, like twins in the case of multiple human birth. 

I love the idea, even though my first thought was a world full of Master Splinters. You presented it in a way I was not expecting.


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## thecoldembrace (May 21, 2014)

What you might want to look at is the Skaven race from Warhammer, basically ratmen with a very developed society and... brutal culture. I personally love them, as they are hilarious backstabbing, conniving and as smart as they are stupid.


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## evanator66 (May 21, 2014)

Nice idea.
The civilization could be growing exponentially, or they could have a population limit (2 children per couple, possible third child through lottery).


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## Khama (May 21, 2014)

Seems like a pretty sick idea. I would say, though, that when you are thinking of how you wish to make this society. Just first figure out key traits you want for them, and then from there delve into it deeper from there. As you may want to make them peaceful folks, warrior society, lame farmers, or anything of the like as a key aspect. Which then would morph into something else from the others. 

Overall, just layer out some key aspects YOU want to see in them. From there you can better identify how you wish to mold with your starting clay.


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## Gryphos (May 22, 2014)

thecoldembrace said:


> What you might want to look at is the Skaven race from Warhammer, basically ratmen with a very developed society and... brutal culture. I personally love them, as they are hilarious backstabbing, conniving and as smart as they are stupid.



They do seem interesting, but for my rats I'm thinking of going less in the direction of bloodthirsty warrior race and more civilised renaissance society.


As to the problem of overpopulation, a variety of things could solve it. One basic one is that rats don't have a long lifespan. In real life they only live a few years when not in the wild. For my sentient rats I'm likely going to raise that to around fifteen to twenty years (maybe more), but that's still short enough to get a rapid turnover of the population. That together with disease and everyday deathy events would probably be enough to keep the population at a non-ridiculous rate of growth.

As to inheriting titles, the idea of the King setting challenges would be interesting, and it doesn't even need to be official. Over time the 'Royal Litter', as all of them have an equal chance of succession (I'm going to ignore the fact that _technically_ one is the eldest just because this way can lead to more interesting scenarios) each of them would essentially spend their entire life trying to get the King's approval, as well as competing with each other, but in different ways. Some might try to gain his approval by becoming a renowned general, while others may dedicate themselves to reforming the city and raising money for the Crown, and others may try to gain popularity with the people. And often the more ruthless and determined of the Royal Litter would off their siblings to give themselves a greater chance of being selected. As to how the King selects his heir he would probably name them on his deathbed, or if it was a sudden death, name them in his will. If, by some chance he forgot to make a will, then his spouse would probably decide. And if they somehow both died suddenly, then it would probably be left to a vote by some kind of council. Either way, you'd end up with this rather intense political game going on between the members of the Royal Litter, which could be very intriguing story-stuff.


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## KC Trae Becker (May 22, 2014)

Rats are a great species to work with because they are so adaptable. I agree with the idea of chosing among a litter instead of just going with the first born, because they are the same age really and as in a litter of puppies there will be alpha personalities versus omega personalities. The accident of birth order by a few minutes would be a far inferior way to decide who is the best leader.

The increasing population issue would effect the society since excess population tends to cheap the value of the average life. In humans this tends to lead to wars. Maybe non-inheriting royal children would be sent off to be generals for armies, etc., leaving the city life still civilized and refined.

One question immediately comes to mind. What role does gender play in this rat society? 

I'm not sure, but I think the gender difference of the birthrates favors females. But the time spent nursing and nurturing the young is dramatically less than in humans. This frees up the females to be very active either in more reproduction (already an issue for you) or in social engagement and production. Is it a male dominated society?


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## Gryphos (May 22, 2014)

> One question immediately comes to mind. What role does gender play in this rat society?
> 
> I'm not sure, but I think the gender difference of the birthrates favors females. But the time spent nursing and nurturing the young is dramatically less than in humans. This frees up the females to be very active either in more reproduction (already an issue for you) or in social engagement and production. Is it a male dominated society?



That is a good question. It may be interesting to make the rat society completely gender equal.

As to partnerships and mating. Complete gender equality from the be inning would not create a system of formal marriage. However, there could still be couples in a kind of 'mateship', but this wouldn't be a formal document or anything, just an acknowledgement that two rats are in a mating relationship.

And with the child-rearing period much shorter (about a few years or so, seeing as I've lengthened their lifespans a bit) Females would be active members of society, with equal rights to carry out jobs such as those in the military. They would also have equal rights to the Crown should the current monarch decide to pass the title on to them.


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## TWErvin2 (May 23, 2014)

With the problem of over population, it could be solved by very few female rats born, or infertility in the males, etc. It could be the environment where there are many birth defects, or even infanticide, where only the healthiest and largest of a litter is kept alive to improve the family line. This may not fit in with the renaissance setting, however.

But a thing to consider is how the rats 'think' and view the world. If they're simply humans with a rat's outer features, that won't go as far I think as if they have not only a different culture but very much different way of relating to the world.

In my science fiction novel, there is an alien species called the Chicher, which appear like a cross between a rat and a squirrel, and about only three feet tall. The language (way of speaking when translated) even run through a translation filter, made references to the nature and season in it's imagery and discussion...metaphors, nonverbal cues, and the like. Their habits, desire for pack members/blood lines, being close and needs when hibernating and such influenced who they were, and the way they named/identified each other and others was different. All of this was only touched upon as the Chicher Diplomat in the novel wasn't a main character, and the novel was written in first person POV, where the interaction with the Chicher was through the main character.  

It has turned out that the Chicher Diplomat was very popular with readers who've found him interesting because he wasn't just an alien that had the appearance of a large rat while being little more than a variation of humanity...if that makes sense.


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## Gryphos (May 23, 2014)

> But a thing to consider is how the rats 'think' and view the world. If they're simply humans with a rat's outer features, that won't go as far I think as if they have not only a different culture but very much different way of relating to the world.



This is a very interesting point and definitely something to think about. How exactly would a race of sentient rats view the world different to how humans would?


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## ink. (May 23, 2014)

In actual rat terms, while we're talking about gender; males (on the whole) tend to be bigger, but lazier than females (similar to humans, much?). I also read somewhere that rats give birth to a greater number of does (females) than bucks (males), something like a 60/40 split, though not huge would definitely affect social standing. Females do tend to die younger however, with the incidence of mammary gland tumours forming (partly due to inbreeding by dodgy breeders) being unusually high. So if females have a shorter lifespan on average than males, that could also affect their standing, possibly make them more reckless.


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## Gryphos (May 24, 2014)

Here's something. Because of a lack of the concept of marriage, and the fact that such a large pool of rats per generation would lead to a huge amount of mixing, family essentially wouldn't exist. There would still be families in the sense of parents raising and having a connection with their children. But there would be no last names and no 'family pride'. The king wouldn't want to give the kingdom to his kid so they could 'carry on the family name', they'd do it because each of the Royal Litter would have been groomed from birth to rule.

This lack of family name would also lead to the breaking down of class boundaries. Rats wouldn't be entitled to anything, they'd have to work for it. This creates a culture of hard work and personal pride in one's own abilities rather than one's background. It would be a society of colourful individuals rather than broad groups.


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## Terry Greer (May 27, 2014)

If you've not read it - 'The Amazing Maurice and his educated rodents' by Terry Pratchet is a delightful book from his Discworld series centered on intelligent rats.
Its funny, charming and very moving and I can't recommend it enough.


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## Asinya (May 28, 2014)

My current (and first) project deals with humanoid mice in a sort-of-steampunk setting. 

I made it easy on myself, I just went with "oldest" offspring being the one to plop out first, as that would mean they were the First - showing...spirit and eagerness, sort of thing.

That said, I also decided that average baby-amount is 3 per litter (5 being almost many, 2 being a bit low, and just 1 being a bit of a disappointment) I went with that because my mice are more humanoid, meaning I also put them on their hindlegs and cause of that, I suspect their pelvic bones would have to be differently tilted, and then it seemed easier (yeah, I'm lazy) to give them smaller litters.

Uhm. I have nothing really to add, but that is sort of how I do it.


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## KC Trae Becker (Jun 3, 2014)

Gryphos said:


> Here's something. Because of a lack of the concept of marriage, and the fact that such a large pool of rats per generation would lead to a huge amount of mixing, family essentially wouldn't exist. There would still be families in the sense of parents raising and having a connection with their children. But there would be no last names and no 'family pride'. The king wouldn't want to give the kingdom to his kid so they could 'carry on the family name', they'd do it because each of the Royal Litter would have been groomed from birth to rule.
> 
> This lack of family name would also lead to the breaking down of class boundaries. Rats wouldn't be entitled to anything, they'd have to work for it. This creates a culture of hard work and personal pride in one's own abilities rather than one's background. It would be a society of colourful individuals rather than broad groups.



Rats like many animals, but more than most, recognize kinship by a sense of smell. The other rats that smell most like them as a direct result of genetic similarity would be most related to them and be more likely to receive kind treatment and sharing of food and such. 

There perhaps should be some familial pride and relationships with members of family, but less connected to direct descent.


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