# Sheilawisz's First Law



## Sheilawisz (Apr 28, 2012)

After having breakfast today, I was thinking about that thread of the Sanderson's law and then this idea came to my mind... to state my own Sheilawisz's First Law for Fantasy stories!!

This is just for fun and discussion anyway, you know that my personal opinion is to avoid any "general law" for Fantasy stories and create your own, but my own idea for a Fantasy Law goes like this:

*Sheilawisz's First Law:* _Magic should be used every or almost every time against trouble, obstacles or enemies that have Magic as well to fight against the Magic, or else it gets very easy for the Fantasy writer to solve all the trouble too easily and the readers will lose interest in the story._

That is what I do in my own stories, the reason that my Mages have troubles too despite the super powerful Magic that they are =)

I can give an example that breaks my law and that I disliked a lot:

In the Prince Caspian Narnia movie, the Telmarine Army was winning the final battle because they had the best army and fought bravely. Then, when everything was lost for the Narnians, Susan and Lucy find Aslan (who seems to have simply appeared in the forest) and he started to activate Narnia's Magic or something...

Then the Telmarines lost the battle quickly, even though they were just about to crush the Narnian forces!!

What made me so angry about this particular scenario was not that Aslan used Magic to save the defeated Narnians, but that the Telmarine Army had no Magic to throw back at him, not even a little... So, this is a good example of how my Sheilawisz's First Law could be applied to a Fantasy story =)

What do you think??


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## Devor (Apr 28, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> *Sheilawisz's First Law:* _Magic should be used every or almost every time against trouble, obstacles or enemies that have Magic as well to fight against the Magic, or else it gets very easy for the Fantasy writer to solve all the trouble too easily and the readers will lose interest in the story._



Not bad.  I'd revise it to say that magic is a show of _force_, and that the good guys shouldn't have _greater force_ than the bad guys, or it skews the conflict.  But there's other types of force, like a great big army, and magic doesn't always have to be all-defeating.


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 28, 2012)

Thanks Devor!! You have good points- Magic does not always have to be all-defeating!!

What about a great big army that is winning many battles suffering little casualties, because they have some two hundred Mages that can quickly devastate a rival army with some sort of beams of death??

Then, an opposing army would need to have its own Mages to create some form of defenses, or maybe to throw their own beams of death and create a leveling of forces =)


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## Aidan of the tavern (Apr 28, 2012)

Mmm, interesting.  Magic is actually becoming uncommon in my world, I mean mages are, as part of my big plan to increase the danger factor around it.  I totally agree with you about how annoying it is when magic saves the day.  Although there are a few intances where it works well, usually on a small scale, like the scene in The Hobbit when Gollum sits in front of the door and Bilbo uses the ring to sneak past.  But big elemental upheavals that change the course of a battle?  Oh please.


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## ScipioSmith (Apr 28, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> In the Prince Caspian Narnia movie, the Telmarine Army was winning the final battle because they had the best army and fought bravely. Then, when everything was lost for the Narnians, Susan and Lucy find Aslan (who seems to have simply appeared in the forest) and he started to activate Narnia's Magic or something...
> 
> Then the Telmarines lost the battle quickly, even though they were just about to crush the Narnian forces!!
> 
> ...



This is what made me introduce a Mage Corps into my Imperial Army, as I realised that it would be stupid of them not to have magic to counter the magic of the enemy. I also had to introduce a new form of magic that would allow the protagonist to match force against the villain.


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## Mindfire (Apr 28, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> What made me so angry about this particular scenario was not that Aslan used Magic to save the defeated Narnians, but that the Telmarine Army had no Magic to throw back at him, not even a little... So, this is a good example of how my Sheilawisz's First Law could be applied to a Fantasy story =)
> 
> What do you think??



Well that's kind of the point of the Telmarines, isn't it? They were against magic and magical creatures. They tried to exterminate the native Narnians. They were behaving in character. I don't see how that's grounds for rage exactly.

It seems to me that your law boils down to: "If there's any magic in the story at all, then _everybody _has to have magic. Otherwise, it's just not fair!" I take issue with that. If everybody has magic, then the magic loses some of its specialness. Part of what makes magic magical is that only a select group of people have it. Even in universes where magic is widespread and commonplace there's always "haves" and "have nots". In the world of Avatar, there's benders and nonbenders. In the Codex Alera, all the Alerans (except Tavi) can furycraft, but some are more powerful than others, and their enemies either have a different kind of magic, like the Canim, or have none at all, like the Marat. In my book I also have haves and have nots with regard to magic and I even make it a plot point. If you decree in a work that everybody has to have magic or nobody can have it, it can actually _limit _your options rather than make a story more engaging.


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## Mindfire (Apr 28, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> Thanks Devor!! You have good points- Magic does not always have to be all-defeating!!
> 
> What about a great big army that is winning many battles suffering little casualties, because they have some two hundred Mages that can quickly devastate a rival army with some sort of beams of death??
> 
> Then, an opposing army would need to have its own Mages to create some form of defenses, or maybe to throw their own beams of death and create a leveling of forces =)



But if everyone's always equally matched, that also kills the sense of conflict. The idea of an arms race is good, and it's one that I use, but I'm still not buying the "everyone's got it" thing. What if there's a group of people who just dont' have magic? I think it's also interesting to explore what a culture without magic does to compete with one that does.


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## Devor (Apr 28, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> But if everyone's always equally matched, that also kills the sense of conflict. The idea of an arms race is good, and it's one that I use, but I'm still not buying the "everyone's got it" thing. What if there's a group of people who just dont' have magic? I think it's also interesting to explore what a culture without magic does to compete with one that does.



Yeah, I agree.  To me the problem is what I call the "fix-it-all" button because of how often it's employed that way in Dr. Who.  There's a single spell or device which completely clears up the conflict no matter how bad things get.

The thing is, it's not even Deus Ex Machina because it's been completely foreshadowed, and makes perfect sense in the context of how the spell or gadget is supposed to work.  We can see that the Doctor is looking at the robots who came through the vortex with funny glasses, we can assume he's seeing something on them, I guess it makes as much sense as anything that that something could be used to pull them back through the vortex.  But really, the world-wide invasion is just wrapped up a little too cleanly, a little too quickly, compared to the scope of the conflict that was built up.

I love Dr. Who, and I love Narnia, but I enjoy them for reasons _besides_ the way the great conflicts are resolved.  The same is true for me of some of the Harry Potter books (1, 2 and 4).  I love these stories, but I still can't help but feel a little disappointed by their conflict resolution.  (Although Dr. Who has gotten a lot better about it since then.)


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## Anders Ã„mting (Apr 28, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> After having breakfast today, I was thinking about that thread of the Sanderson's law and then this idea came to my mind... to state my own Sheilawisz's First Law for Fantasy stories!!
> 
> This is just for fun and discussion anyway, you know that my personal opinion is to avoid any "general law" for Fantasy stories and create your own, but my own idea for a Fantasy Law goes like this:
> 
> ...



I think your law is worded a bit strangely. You are basically saying that "protagonists should always use magic whenever antagonists use magic" because "otherwise magic can be used as a universial solution to all problems resulting in a lack of suspense."

I don't really see a corrolation between those two statements. It makes more sense if you replace "always" with "only", but that leads to another problem: How do you realistically keep magicians from using magic to solve problems that are not of a magical nature? If that's what your law means, then each antagonistic element needs to posses magic equal to or greater then your protagonists, and the actual scale of opposition otherwise doesn't matter. 

Example: One of your mages faces off against and entire army of non-mage opponents. As I understand your law, the mage cannot use magic to defend himself at all.

Or, less dramatically, if your mage faces an everyday problem that can realistically be easily solved with magic, you need to come up with an excuse for why he doesn't.



> I can give an example that breaks my law and that I disliked a lot:
> 
> In the Prince Caspian Narnia movie, the Telmarine Army was winning the final battle because they had the best army and fought bravely. Then, when everything was lost for the Narnians, Susan and Lucy find Aslan (who seems to have simply appeared in the forest) and he started to activate Narnia's Magic or something...
> 
> Then the Telmarines lost the battle quickly, even though they were just about to crush the Narnian forces!!



To be absolutely fair, Aslan is pretty much literally Lion Jesus, miracles and all, and everything he did after _The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe_ was some sort of test of faith. IIRC, he showed himself only to Lucy because she was the only one who kept having faith in him, and if the others had listen to her when she said "Guys, I totally saw Aslan!" they would have sorted out the whole mess that much sooner.


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## Mindfire (Apr 28, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> To be absolutely fair, Aslan is pretty much literally Lion Jesus, miracles and all, and everything he did after _The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe_ was some sort of test of faith. IIRC, he showed himself only to Lucy because she was the only one who kept having faith in him, and if the others had listen to her when she said "Guys, I totally saw Aslan!" they would have sorted out the whole mess that much sooner.



The point. This guy gets it. xD


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## Queshire (Apr 28, 2012)

Personally I prefer Uncle's first law; Magic must defeat Magic!

Slightly off topic; in my WiP magic is everywhere, it acts like technology in the real world. A swordsman can defeat a traditional magician because they are reinforcing themselves and their weapon with magic.


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## Mindfire (Apr 28, 2012)

Queshire said:


> Personally I prefer Uncle's first law; Magic must defeat Magic!
> 
> Slightly off topic; in my WiP magic is everywhere, it acts like technology in the real world. A swordsman can defeat a traditional magician because they are reinforcing themselves and their weapon with magic.



Interesting idea. I use a slightly different take. All the magic systems have inherent weaknesses (otherwise, the magic users would have already taken over the world, right?), so non-magic users simply find ways to exploit those weaknesses.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Apr 28, 2012)

If the Summoner from Diablo II and LARPing taught me anything, it's this:

*Fighters rush casters; casters die.*


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## Mindfire (Apr 28, 2012)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> If the Summoner from Diablo II and LARPing taught me anything, it's this:
> 
> *Fighters rush casters; casters die.*


Unless said caster is Gandalf, in which case, You Shall Not Pass.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Apr 28, 2012)

I hate it when my barbarians rush Gandalf and get blown to smithereens.

Maybe if they knew what a smithereen was, they'd be more careful about which caster they rush.


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## shangrila (Apr 29, 2012)

Using magic to solve problems, even problems caused by magic, will always end up being contrived though. Unless you give the reader a good understanding of how the magic actually works, you'll end up making it feel like everything is just happening because you (the writer) said so.

I don't know if that describes it properly, but the Malazan series is a good example. In the last few books, everything was caused and solved by magic. But you knew the good guys were going to win, even if one guy stood against a handful of gods, because the magic was so ambigous that Erikson would handwave any solution without worrying about it conflicting with any rules. And while I'm sure it would look cool in a movie, it just felt lame reading it. Things just...happened.


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 29, 2012)

@Mindfire: I was angry to see the Telmarines losing the battle because I was cheering for them, and to see that suddenly Magic coming out of nowhere defeated an army that was clearly the best fighter was, well... _very unfair,_ at least for me!!

Well, I never said that _everyone_ must have Magic: What I mean is that if Magic is to be used to solve trouble, get past obstacles and destroy enemies, then these enemies or whatever must have Magic too in order to make it more difficult, or else everything will get too easy for the protagonists =)

Having two forces equally matched is better than having one that clearly outmatches the other: Think of two armies going to battle, one with AK-47s and tanks and the other with wooden shields and swords... is that going to be a good battle??

It's better to have tanks fighting tanks and swords fighting swords, it would be a more evenly matched and exciting battle that could be decided by courage and skills rather than sheer destructive force by itself.

So, It's better to have Magic vs Magic, at least for crucial parts of a story =)

@Anders: I did not include the word _"Always"_ in my Sheilawisz's First Law at all- It says _every or almost every time_, so it does not mean that Mages are forbidden to use Magic against non-magical enemies, troubles or innocent people...

In my stories my Mages have used their weapons to nuke cities that counted only with fighter jets, missiles and artillery to try to defend themselves, but when it comes to having real trouble in important parts of the stories, they are fighting other Mages or having magical trouble and it's not as easy as killing innocent people that are simply trying to escape.

They also use Magic just for fun, like making plum juice appear out of nowhere and start a party =)

So, it was fair that the Telmarines lost the battle just like that, simply because the Narnians had God in their side?? That's like saying that it's fair that Star Trek space fleets would always win easily against starships from other space stories, simply because they have Q in the ST universe- I am not satisfied with that particular moment of the Prince Caspian movie, it was simply unfair.

@Shangrila: I agree that readers need to be given at least a few clues about how Magic works and what are the limits that it has to respect so the stories can be good, but I see no relation between that and my Sheilawisz's First Law.


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## Mindfire (Apr 29, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> @Mindfire: I was angry to see the Telmarines losing the battle because I was cheering for them, and to see that suddenly Magic coming out of nowhere defeated an army that was clearly the best fighter was, well... _very unfair,_ at least for me!!
> 
> So, it was fair that the Telmarines lost the battle just like that, simply because the Narnians had God in their side?? That's like saying that it's fair that Star Trek space fleets would always win easily against starships from other space stories, simply because they have Q in the ST universe- I am not satisfied with that particular moment of the Prince Caspian movie, it was simply unfair.



You were cheering for the Telmarines? Did you happen to notice that they were the bad guys? And GENOCIDAL bad guys at that. Or at least the leaders were. Did you cheer for the White Witch too? The Telmarines went out of their way to destroy everything magical. Their defeat was their own fault. In fact, it's ironic and fitting that they should be defeated by the very things they sought to destroy. And how on earth you can sympathize with a bastard like King Miraz is beyond me. Aslan helping the Narnians was very fair, because that's how the world of Narnia _works_. Did you want him to just stand there and do nothing? That would be marvelously inconsistent with his actions during the previous story. If you went into a Narnia film expecting Aslan to _not_ save the day, then you set yourself up for disappointment. 

And anyway, who said battles were supposed to be fair? The entire point of battle is NOT to be fair. Fair = gridlock. Gridlock is not exciting. Conflicts that stretch out forever with no clear winner are not exciting. It's the ups and downs, defeats, victories, upsets, and turnovers that make any conflict exciting. An infinite tug of war? Who wants to see that. And I don't really care if a battle is "fair" or not, so long as my side wins in the end and I enjoy watching the fight. And believe me, watching their precious catapults get killed by trees and seeing the River Spirit drown their armies, including that one treacherous guy whose name eludes me, was VERY satisfying.

Incidently, I mean no offense, but are you atheist and/or one of those people who just doesn't like the Narnia stories? Because that's the only way I can fathom you cheering for the Telmarines.


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 29, 2012)

After thinking about it a little, it seems to me that I was cheering for the Telmarines because they were humans fighting creatures, and did not think of them as bad guys: They had the right to live in Narnia too and they were trying to impose their civilization over the creatures, pretty much what humans do all the time =)

I did not really like Miraz, but after all, I have not read the Narnia books (just watched the first two movies) so please do not take it that I have a good knowledge about Narnia and all the characters, because I have not. Anyway, yes... in the first movie I was cheering for the White Witch because she was so cool!! (no pun intended).

In battles, a skilled general with surprising tactics can defeat a larger and better armed army- That has happened in the real world and it can be good for Fantasy stories too, but to be fair and work well, both armies must have at least a similar level of weapons or else one side has no chance to defeat the other.

That's what I mean with Magic vs Magic...


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## Mindfire (Apr 29, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> In battles, a skilled general with surprising tactics can defeat a larger and better armed army- That has happened in the real world and it can be good for Fantasy stories too, but to be fair and work well, both armies must have at least a similar level of weapons or else one side has no chance to defeat the other.
> 
> That's what I mean with Magic vs Magic...



Well, not necessarily. The Native Americans had mounted archers that could hold their own against enemies armed with guns. I see what you're getting at. But I think there's also something to be said for the underdog scenario. A band that's vastly outnumbered and outgunned but manages to come from nowhere and win anyway. Or a conflict between opposing philosophies, like magic vs no-magic, or mutants vs anti-mutants. There are ways to make sides of a conflict "equal" without making them "equal", if you see what I mean. Even divine intervention can be good if done well. It just takes more work from the writer to make it satisfying.


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 29, 2012)

I would have liked to see the Narnians winning the battle by themselves, with the Telmarines already trying to escape when Aslan appears and starts all the Magic just like that to give the final blow... at least it would have been more fair. With the White Witch I had no problem really, because she had Magic too and it was alright, from my point of view, that Aslan would win in the end with his own Magic =)

The guns in the times that you mentioned were really no match for archers, because skilled archers can shoot a surprising number of arrows per minute and if you have them on horses, they are very deadly!! What would have happened to the same mounted archers if they had faced tanks, modern machine guns and cluster bombs??

You have a good point with your other views about the underdog scenario and other ways to make things more equal, that is great for stories too. We should remember now what Devor said about Magic not needing to be all-defeating in every Fantasy world, but in worlds with very powerful Magic, having the Mages fight other Mages is the best solution to avoid solving all the trouble too easily (DEMs) or at least, that's what works in my stories.

As an additional note: My Mages do not take over the worlds they live in because they don't care about taking over and ruling the common people =)


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## Mindfire (Apr 29, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> You have a good point with your other views about the underdog scenario and other ways to make things more equal, that is great for stories too. We should remember now what Devor said about Magic not needing to be all-defeating in every Fantasy world, but in worlds with very powerful Magic, having the Mages fight other Mages is the best solution to avoid solving all the trouble too easily (DEMs) or at least, that's what works in my stories.
> 
> As an additional note: My Mages do not take over the worlds they live in because they don't care about taking over and ruling the common people =)



I handle things somewhat differently. All the magic systems have a weakness that can be exploited. So skilled enemies without magic can find a way to use that to their advantage. And since the drawbacks make sense in context, it feels consistent. 

Wait, so none of your mages has ever gotten full of himself and decided to go for world domination? Or at least takeover a small town so he can get free sandwiches at the local deli? Never? Where does their self-control come from?


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## Saigonnus (Apr 29, 2012)

I think it's a sound concept, but many fantasy stories revolve around someone or a people without magic, trying to overcome obstacles or those in power that have it. The Crimson Shadow series by R.A. Salvatore is a prime example. He is the leader of a rebellion against the wizard king (who is really a dragon) and has no magic to fight it. He has a couple magic items (a cloak used by a notorious thief) and a sword, but nothing like the magical power of the king and his disciples. 

I think those types of stories are inspiring to people because it represents that the ordinary people have the power to overcome even those with a vast power or resources.


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 29, 2012)

@Saigonnus: I agree with you- Like I said in my first post when I started this thread, I do not intend my Sheilawisz's First Law to be valid for every Fantasy story... I do not believe in any "general law" for Fantasy stories, and my opinion about these matters is that every Fantasy world needs to have the laws and limitations that are best for the story that is being told =)

Maybe the stuff that I talk about seems strange for other Mythic Scribes members because, unlike so many stories about heroes without Magic that must struggle against superior forces, I write stories that are completely about powerful Mages and all the crazy things that they do in their own crazy worlds...

My Sheilawisz's Law works great in my own stories, but it lacks of logic in other worlds and this supports my opinion that every Fantasy world needs laws and limitations of its own =)

@Mindfire: That would be full of _herself_ because all of my Mages are female!! They have their own cities, culture, society, entertainment, art and government with Mage Queens ruling over tens of thousands of them, so for my Mages the common people living in the same worlds are a separate world that is little more than a curiosity for them.

They sometimes get full of themselves and crazy things happen, and they do have some self-control issues: The great Candles War between two rival Mage cities was started because they could not agree which style of magical candles was best!!

About getting free sandwiches, they would just make those appear out of nowhere like they do with many things =)


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## ThinkerX (Apr 29, 2012)

The premise of this law assumes that magic is understood well enough to have predictable effects each time it is used in the same way.  With something as wondrous as magic, that might be a risky assumption.

Sheilawisz has mentioned several times that magic and magicians are essentially unbounded in that world(s).  These magicians perform monumental feats of sorcery on a routine basis, and are apparently all but invulnerable.  But suppose they woke up one day, and the magic was gone, or greatly altered to the point where many of their spells either would not work as expected, or would not work at all.  Or suppose they woke up one day were all suddenly deathly alergic to some common spice or foodstuff?

Say there is a turkey living on a farm.  Each day, the farmer shows up, feeds the turkey.  The turkey comes to expect this, same time, each and every day.  Then, come Thanksgiving, the farmer shows up not with food, but with an ax instead.

Imagine that, or something like it, being the case with a seemingly 'stable' magic system - that apparent stability is maintained only because it benefits some other ...entities... interest, and once certain conditions are meant...

There is also the issue as to just how powerful magicians actually are - is a solitary wizard, for example, capable of laying waste to a city on a whim without significant preparation? Or even a village?  In my worlds, with my system, the answer is no:
unless he or she is very powerful, and does a lot of prep work, then that wizard won't be leveling any metropolises.  Yes, some of them do possess potent combat spells, or magics of detection and protection that an army would find useful, but the nonmagical equivilents (catapults hurling crude gunpowder bombs, spies, ect) offset much of this.  

Now...there are entities that can destroy a city or army more or less on a whim, but these are not 'mortals', but rather eldritch Lovecraftian things, Fey Lords and Ladies, and roughly comparable beings - and even then, certain conditions have to be meant, and they all have weird vulnerabilities.

So, my evaluation is this law needs to be rethought.


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## Mindfire (Apr 29, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> @Mindfire: That would be full of _herself_ because all of my Mages are female!! They have their own cities, culture, society, entertainment, art and government with Mage Queens ruling over tens of thousands of them, so for my Mages the common people living in the same worlds are a separate world that is little more than a curiosity for them.
> 
> They sometimes get full of themselves and crazy things happen, and they do have some self-control issues: The great Candles War between two rival Mage cities was started because they could not agree which style of magical candles was best!!
> 
> About getting free sandwiches, they would just make those appear out of nowhere like they do with many things =)



But common folks are useful. For slaves! No but really, I'm having a hard time swallowing that in the entire history of this mage society there's never been any corruption or megalomania. How exactly does that happen? Do they not want slaves? Or have they developed to the point where they consider slavery/subjugation/colonization morally wrong?


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 29, 2012)

@ThinkerX: They do not use Magic as some form of outside power that they have somehow mastered: _They are Magic._ Some friends here in MS have told me that I should not call them Mages, that they really are some form of mystical entities like demigoddeses or something like that, but I just like very much calling them Magas (castilian word for female mages) and I do not want to change that.

My Law is intended to work in Fantasy worlds with really powerful Magic, but it seems to me that a similar idea works well in the Harry Potter universe like it is explained in the first chapter of the 6th book.

"But you are Wizards! You can do Magic!! Surely you can sort out... anything!!"

@Mindfire: They have a good number of Guardians (males of their species) living in their cities with them as servants and something fun to look up at, but they do not need slaves... What would they want to do with slaves??


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## Mindfire (Apr 29, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> @Mindfire: They have a good number of Guardians (males of their species) living in their cities with them as servants and something fun to look up at, but they do not need slaves... What would they want to do with slaves??



Oh, so they do have men then. I was beginning to think they all just popped out of holes in the ground. Like Dwarves. And what do you mean look up at? If they're servants, wouldn't they be considered subhuman and/or looked _down _on? Or are they giants? 

Incidently I have a cult society in my WIP that sounds similar to your Magas, except they're less magical and more brutal. And practice ritual kidnapping and human sacrifice.


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## ThinkerX (Apr 29, 2012)

> ThinkerX: They do not use Magic as some form of outside power that they have somehow mastered: They are Magic. Some friends here in MS have told me that I should not call them Mages, that they really are some form of mystical entities like demigoddeses or something like that, but I just like very much calling them Magas (castilian word for female mages) and I do not want to change that



With respect, the problem still exists even so.  Power, for quite a number of reasons can fluxuate.  They could, as merely one example, expend so much power in such away that they are greatly weakened, maybe even permanently.  Likewise, using an electrical anaolgy - there are quite a few substances that have a high resistance.  And even gods have weak points - Baldur, for example, was done in by missiletoe. 

I would also submit, that as 'beings who are magic', they would have crippling, all encompassing blind spots about some of these potential pitfalls - because, up until whatever it is happens, things have always been the same.


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 30, 2012)

To make things more clear about my Law, tonight I wanted to include in it this little additional part: *Sheilawisz's First Law* _works best in Fantasy worlds where there is super powerful Magic: The kind of Magic against which non-magic stands no chance in hell._

Anyway, like I said in the Sanderson's Law thread: The beauty of Magic is that we can imagine and use it in our worlds in so many different ways... That's why I don't believe in the idea of having general laws in what we do, because each story is different and so it's better to come up with our own systems of laws and limitations.

Also, there are stories with very low and even without Magic, and that is Fantasy too...

@ThinkerX: They do get tired and weakened, especially when they have been harmed in battle. I have not given them particular weaknesses like _orange juice will kill them_, but they are very vulnerable to the same weapons that they use and that's quite enough a weakness in the stories =)

@Mindfire: You guessed it right!! The Guardians are over 12 feet tall while females are between 5'8'' and 6'4'', so they do have to look very high up. In my species the Guardians are very protective and loyal to the females, not just to those who are Mages.


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## Ankari (Apr 30, 2012)

So rewrite it to include all forms of fantasy:

Magic is a tool.  Like any tool everyone has access, and the ability, to learn and master it.  It should never be the deciding factor in any conflict, only a weapon by which anyone can wield.

Doesn't that cover it?


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 30, 2012)

I don't believe that any _First Law_ can cover all forms of Magic and Fantasy... I started this thread just to have fun creating my own Fantasy Law and reading what other Mythic Scribes members would think of it =)

Maybe the closest thing to a general law would be what J.K. Rowling said, though I do not remember where: The most important part of creating a Fantasy world, is to know what your characters _cannot_ do.

By the way, I love your avatar Ankari!!


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## Ankari (Apr 30, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> By the way, I love your avatar Ankari!!



Thanks, I cropped it from my website's logo.


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 30, 2012)

An interesting idea to think about: If the Wizards and Witches from the Harry Potter series were real, and wanted to take over the world and enslave us Muggles all to work as House Elves... Would we stand a chance to stop them with our Technology? Would we stand a chance against their Magic, without Magic of our own to fight back??


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## Steerpike (Apr 30, 2012)

Yes. A very good chance, I think


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 30, 2012)

Thanks Steerpike, but how would we fight them??

We are talking about people that can just come out of nowhere and turn you into a ferret, take control of your mind, cause unspeakable torture and so many other things...

I bet that all the major cities of the world would get Fiendfyred before we can do something, or they would do something to our crops worldwide and the food supplies would soon run out and we would have to surrender =P


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## Steerpike (Apr 30, 2012)

There are far more muggles than not. I suspect over the ages, if the magic-wielding people thought they could take over the world, why not do so? Instead, they remain hidden. And for good reason.

I didn't see anything in the books that would prevent people from being killed by being shot. A large force against a small number of magicians and it would be no contest. You couldn't turn everyone into a ferret in time. I also doubt Hogwarts and other institutions would stand up too well to being bombed back into the stone age from the air or via missiles. 

No, their only chance would be to launch the first assault, and even then I don't think there are enough magic-wielders in the Harry Potter world to do it. And if they didn't take over in the initial assault, I think they'd be in trouble. Technology doesn't really fit into Rowling's world, and so she largely ignored it. But if Voldemort had managed to rise to power in the Muggle world and assaulted Hogwarts with a modern military force, including ground, air, etc., I think there would be a smoking crater where Hogwarts used to be


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 30, 2012)

Hogwarts and other similar places are supposed to be impossible to see or to find by Muggles, so maybe they would not appear even in radar or something for bomber jets to go and nuke them... Wizards could be killed by bullets or other weapons, but what if they teleport to escape a force of Muggle soldiers and then attack from behind??

They have shield charms, and can be invisible too- What about Fiendfyre? What if they attacked cities by flying above and transforming the air into some form of devastating chemical weapon??

Taking control of the greatest world leaders to start a nuclear war would be feasible too...

It's true that they would need a good strategy to launch the first attack (targeting the crops and food supplies, to start with) but in the end, I think we would be screwed.


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## Mindfire (Apr 30, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> Hogwarts and other similar places are supposed to be impossible to see or to find by Muggles, so maybe they would not appear even in radar or something for bomber jets to go and nuke them... Wizards could be killed by bullets or other weapons, but what if they teleport to escape a force of Muggle soldiers and then attack from behind??
> 
> They have shield charms, and can be invisible too- What about Fiendfyre? What if they attacked cities by flying above and transforming the air into some form of devastating chemical weapon??
> 
> ...



I disagree. According to my research, top government officials like the UK Prime Minister and (if there are wizards and such in America) the US President are aware of the existence of the wizarding world and are knowledgeable of key locations, like Hogwarts. I think that takes the element of surprise advantage off the table for a wizard invasion. The governments of the world would have to be EXTREMELY stupid to know about these people existing and NOT have a contingency plan. Steerpike was right about numbers also being a factor. In order to have a conclusive victory, the wizards would have to:
A. Stop bickering among themselves, and that alone is a longshot.
B. Have enough manpower to simultaneously attack every UN/NATO country *in the world*. Because if they don't they'll have MOABs, nuclear bombs and patriot missiles crammed so far up their collective broomsticks before they can even say "Avada Kedavra".

Magic>weapons of mass destruction.


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## Amanita (Apr 30, 2012)

Commenting on the struggle between Harry Potter wizards and non-magical people first: I agree with the position that wizards would eventually lose because of their small number. Besides that wizards do not have any weapons superior to the „muggle“ ones. A machine gun should kill people more quickly than shouting „Avada Kedavra“, and nuclear weapons are way more devastating than Fiendfire. As mentioned on another thread quite a while ago, I highly doubt that Harry Potter wizards would even think of something like turning the air into a poisonous gas because they don’t seem to be aware of such concepts at all.
Besides that the fact that magical and non magical people live in the same places could cause problems do.

But now on the subject matter of the thread in a more general way.
I don’t think that both sides in battles need to have the same magical powers but I agree with the assumption that a certain amount of balance is necessary to make the story interesting. A „hero“ who keeps roasting thousands of Orcs every day before breakfast doesn’t make for an intriguing story, at least not if we’re supposed to take it seriously. 
I have one nation who uses more magic in war but their opponents have more advanced weapons technology, that’s why I think they’re quite evenly matched. 
One thing certainly applies though: If a magic user is able to form perfect shields against swords, arrows and everything else his enemies are using against him, seeing him in battle isn’t interesting. Such characters actually do require opponents who can counter this and harm them despite of it.
Moving away from battle the same applies to other issues such as injury and disease. If someone can heal gut wounds with a swish of his wand, there need to be magical wounds to add a sense of danger.


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## Devor (Apr 30, 2012)

Amanita said:


> I don’t think that both sides in battles need to have the same magical powers but I agree with the assumption that a certain amount of balance is necessary to make the story interesting.



I think it's okay if the good guys are outmatched, but not if that's going to be resolved at the push of a button.  The resolution has to go through enough of a process to give the conflict legitimacy.




> One thing certainly applies though: If a magic user is able to form perfect shields against swords, arrows and everything else his enemies are using against him, seeing him in battle isn’t interesting. Such characters actually do require opponents who can counter this and harm them despite of it.



I feel tempted to create such a character just so I can have a lowly peasant tear him down for you.


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## Steerpike (Apr 30, 2012)

I like the world of Conan, where you have wizards who can wield powerful magic, and yet an angry barbarian can take them out under the right circumstances.


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## Mindfire (Apr 30, 2012)

Devor said:


> I feel tempted to create such a character just so I can have a lowly peasant tear him down for you.



Batman could do it.


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## Sheilawisz (May 1, 2012)

From what can be seen in the chapter _The Other Minister_ from the start of the 6th book of the series, it's clear that the top leaders of the Muggle world have certain knowledge about the Wizarding world... but this knowledge is limited to what they _need_ to know, and they have no clue about the location of places like Hogwarts or the headquarters of the different Wizarding governments.

I have no doubt that some numbers of Wizards would get killed in the battles, but our world is far more fragile and vulnerable than most people like to accept: Casting in secret some kind of curses to magically ruin the crops worldwide would cause starvation, panic and violence very soon, and if they target the Muggle world's electrical system, then our society would come crashing down in a few months before they attack!!

This is the plan that I would design, if I were a dark Witch coordinating the war:

1- Send thousands of dark wizards with dissilusionment charms to curse the crops all over the world- This could take months, but when it is complete the Muggles will start losing all the harvests having no clue of what is happening. Soon, the food reserves would be depleted, prices would rise and there would be violence and panic: Muggle society starts to collapse.

2- While the Muggles are trying to find a way to deal with the lack of harvests, the first wave of the attack starts: Wizards apparate directly into Muggle power plants starting fires and explosions, while others attack the power lines. The Muggle world is thrown back to the 18th Century, and this means no factories working, no water in the cities, limited medical care in the hospitals and a weakened Muggle military to deal with later.

3- Forget _Avada Kedavra_: The Wizards come out of hiding in the second wave of attacks, starting Fiendfyre fires in all of the major cities of the Muggle world causing many millions of casualties and worldwide terror in the now crashing down Muggle world. The battles start now and Wizarding casualties are expected, but soon the Muggles, having very limited resources to keep fighting, would have to surrender.

There would be other options, but that is what I can think of for now- I agree that to do all of this the Wizards first would have to stop fighting between themselves (very unlikely!!), but really this is what _would_ happen if they were well organized and attacked together in a great Magic vs Technology war.

Weird stuff, but it's fun to imagine it!! =)


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## Queshire (May 1, 2012)

That requires the wizards having an understanding of muggle society. One of the minor themes of the Harry Potter series is that Magical society with their reliance on magic simply don't understand magic. Muggle studies is described as being a joke. Arthur Weasley is described as an "expert" on muggle tech and he's practically clueless. Wizards in the muggle world stick out like a sore thumb, either wearing their wizard robes or a mismatch of muggle clothing. They key would be each side finding out about the other, and the key in that would be the muggle born wizards, but their loyalties would be signifacantly divided along with each side distrusting the muggle borns.

In the Dresden Files, getting clueless mortals involved is like throwing a nuke, because, among other things, we have nukes. The systems involed are different, but similiar enough that the idea remains.

EDIT: Also, I'm pre~~~tty sure the Wizard's would screw themselves over by cursing crops. There's no confirmation one way or another that they can poof up food, and while they could grow their own food it'd still put a strain on their resources.

EDIT 2: A well prepared muggle can easily defeat a wizard, sniper round from a mile away, ether soaked rag to put them to sleep before they can cast a spell, infrared goggles, remote controlled drones, bombs, etc and so on.

EDIT 3: Also, while they may use magic to hide places like Hogwarts and Diagon Alley, they are physical places, a team of experts studying and specifically trying to find these wizard havens should be able to. Track people suspected of being a wizard, see where they disappear, or trying to find them by looking for the voids they leave on the records.


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## Sheilawisz (May 1, 2012)

I agree Queshire, the Wizards in the HP series would need a better understanding of how the Muggle world works for a scenario like this to be feasible... I guess that if they wanted to destroy or enslave the Muggles they would first try to research as much as possible about how to deliver the first blow, but attacking the crops and the electricity systems would be a very clear and obvious idea to start with =)


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## Mindfire (May 1, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> From what can be seen in the chapter _The Other Minister_ from the start of the 6th book of the series, it's clear that the top leaders of the Muggle world have certain knowledge about the Wizarding world... but this knowledge is limited to what they _need_ to know, and they have no clue about the location of places like Hogwarts or the headquarters of the different Wizarding governments.
> 
> I have no doubt that some numbers of Wizards would get killed in the battles, but our world is far more fragile and vulnerable than most people like to accept: Casting in secret some kind of curses to magically ruin the crops worldwide would cause starvation, panic and violence very soon, and if they target the Muggle world's electrical system, then our society would come crashing down in a few months before they attack!!
> 
> ...



Hold it! Wizards in the HP world have no clue how electricity works, much less the kind of knowledge to know how to attack strategic targets in order to bring down power grids worldwide. The wizards simply don't have the manpower to do ANYTHING you just named. Also, any loss of food supplies on the level you're suggesting would be immediately noticeable, and would qualify as a state of emergency. Bioterrorism would be the immediate suspect, and the end result would be that the nations of the world would be on higher alert for an attack, not weakened. This is a post 9/11 world after all. Plus, the wizards are operating at a logistical disadvantage. They have to coordinate troop movements via owls and divination. The muggles have internet, radio, and sattelite phones. And the wizards have absolutely no way of affecting the last one, even if they could figure out how it works. And on the open battlefield, wizards simply can't compete with fighter jets and tanks. Sorry. And if the wizards are so powerful, why do they bother hiding from the muggles in the first place? Because they know that if they didn't 95% of them would end up dead and the other 5% would be dissected at area 51. That's why.


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## Devor (May 1, 2012)

Most wizards cannot cast Avada Kedavra, let alone Fiendfire.  You have to assume the typical wizard, not make them all into dark lords.

Someone tell me the details of the spell Molly used to kill Belatrix, and then I'll tell you if the wizards are overpowered or not.


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## Sheilawisz (May 1, 2012)

Over a hundred thousand wizards and witches attended the World Cup in the 4th book, so it's likely that the Wizarding population in the entire HP planet is at least several million of them. It would take some half a million highly trained wizards to start the attack, I think the numbers are plausible and they would have enough manpower.

They live in hiding maybe because they prefer to live in their own world, I have no idea, the author herself would have to answer this particular question... well, if the attacks to destroy the crops and cripple the electric systems are not good, what about a magically enhanced disease created to cause a deadly pandemic??

They have _Fiendfyre_ too, and tanks are no match for that... maybe I am a little too obssesed about Fiendfyre =)


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## Devor (May 1, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> They have _Fiendfyre_ too, and tanks are no match for that... maybe I am a little too obssesed about Fiendfyre =)



Fiendfyre v. Tanks?  Sure.  But tanks aren't the first line of defense, or assault, in any modern army.  Mostly they're only used nowadays to reinforce the infantry.  We've seen plenty of aerial combat in the books, and in my opinion it's abundantly clear that fighter jets would cripple most wizards in a straight fight.

The major advantage which the wizards hold is deception, apparition, and flexibility.  Imperio and polyjuice are their big weapons, not fiendfyre.


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## Sheilawisz (May 1, 2012)

The Wizards could take control of the most powerful world leaders with the Imperius curse, make them start a huge world war maybe with nuclear weapons and then, when the Muggle world is devastated by the war, the Wizards attack!!


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## Mindfire (May 1, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> The Wizards could take control of the most powerful world leaders with the Imperius curse, make them start a huge world war maybe with nuclear weapons and then, when the Muggle world is devastated by the war, the Wizards attack!!



There's just one problem with that. Any "huge world war with nuclear weapons" would affect the wizards too. They don't live in an alternate dimension. They live on our earth, just hidden. Nuclear bombs do not discriminate between wizards and muggles. Any nuclear bombardment widespread enough to cause significant muggle casualties will cause equalliy significant wizard casualties.


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## Sheilawisz (May 1, 2012)

Then, the few surviving Wizards would enslave the few surviving Muggles in a radioactive, post-nuclear apocalypse dystopic world similar to that Panem thing of _The Hunger Games_! XD!!

This is fun... Well, what about the magically-enhanced Plague that causes a deadly pandemic in the Muggle world??


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## Mindfire (May 1, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> Then, the few surviving Wizards would enslave the few surviving Muggles in a radioactive, post-nuclear apocalypse dystopic world similar to that Panem thing of _The Hunger Games_! XD!!
> 
> This is fun... Well, what about the magically-enhanced Plague that causes a deadly pandemic in the Muggle world??



Plague? One word: quarantine. And I'm still waiting for your explanation of how the wizards prevent themselves from being killed by the radioactive fallout. And just saying "magic" is not a valid answer here, because in order to protect themselves from radiation with magic, they'd have to have a working knowledge of radiation, and they don't know what radiation IS, much less how it works.


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## Shockley (May 1, 2012)

In addition, any muggles that survive the fallout/collapse of civilization would not be easy pickings, magic or magic. I mean, how long does Harry Potter really survive in Fallout?


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## Steerpike (May 1, 2012)

Figure out the genetics behind what makes the magic-wielding people special, engineer a virus with gene sequences targeting the magic-related genes, provide for a deadly toxin to be coded by the viral DNA. Drop indiscriminately and kill all non-muggles.


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## Queshire (May 1, 2012)

You know, most of the tatics you list for wizards are illegal by their own laws, listed as war crimes by just about every nation in the world, likely to result in massive civilian casualties, likely to backfire on the wizards just as easy, and are just plain evil. I mean, seriously, a magical disease?

Also, I suggest taking a look at the web orignal novel The Salvation War The Salvation War - Television Tropes & Idioms for a good look at just how a modern military would handle against the supernatural.

Further, muggles wouldn't be as limited for trying to prevent civilian casualties because any wizard with a wand, which is all of them, is a credible and immediate threat.

Oh, one more thing; take a look at the EXCELLENT fan fiction Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanFic/HarryPotterAndTheMethodsOfRationality to see what would happen if a scientist would find out about magic.


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## Mindfire (May 1, 2012)

Queshire said:


> You know, most of the tatics you list for wizards are illegal by their own laws, listed as war crimes by just about every nation in the world, likely to result in massive civilian casualties, likely to backfire on the wizards just as easy, and are just plain evil. I mean, seriously, a magical disease?



All VERY good points, Queshire. But I kinda figured that we were assuming that Voldemort was in charge now, thus the lack of good wizards on the side of humanity, which would otherwise be yet another reason why this invasion wouldn't work.


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## Queshire (May 1, 2012)

Oh ho! A Voldy led wizarding world, now that's a very different scenario, but frankly it would strike me as making a Wizard victory even unlikelier.

I seriously doubt Voldemort would launch the required surgical first strike neccesary to cripple the Muggle world. While he was raised in a muggle oprphanage and as such would have knowledge of muggle tech, that knowledge would be severely out of date, both from the decades spent fully immersed into the wizarding culture as well as the decade spent dead. His MO has also always been shock and awe with a focus on overwhelming fire power, subtlety... well it's not his strong point. Further, this belief would be renforced by his victory over the Wizarding World using those same tatics.

A voldemort victory would also greatly increase the chances of Wizards joining the muggle side. With magic on their side they would neutralize Voldemort's advantage.

Honestly, with Voldemort, I would expect him to gather up his army, march to the nearest population center and manage to raze a city before the nations of the world team up and knock him down. He might be immortal, but that doesn't mean he can't be shot on a one way rocket into the sun!


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## Mindfire (May 1, 2012)

Queshire said:


> Oh ho! A Voldy led wizarding world, now that's a very different scenario, but frankly it would strike me as making a Wizard victory even unlikelier.
> 
> I seriously doubt Voldemort would launch the required surgical first strike neccesary to cripple the Muggle world. While he was raised in a muggle oprphanage and as such would have knowledge of muggle tech, that knowledge would be severely out of date, both from the decades spent fully immersed into the wizarding culture as well as the decade spent dead. His MO has also always been shock and awe with a focus on overwhelming fire power, subtlety... well it's not his strong point. Further, this belief would be renforced by his victory over the Wizarding World using those same tatics.
> 
> ...



All true. Plus, Voldemort would probably spend the early stages of his victory performing a Nazi-style massacre of all muggle-borns, half-bloods, squibs, and quite possibly half-breeds and non-humans, thus reducing the population of the wizarding world severely, and in turn severely reducing his own manpower to a small handful of extremely in-bred, slightly insane "elites." Which, needless to say, is going to make conquering the world even _harder_.


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## Shockley (May 1, 2012)

> as well as the decade spent dead.



 A big problem, that.


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## Sheilawisz (May 1, 2012)

@Mindfire: Sure, many Wizards would die in the nuclear war and the radioactive fallout, but just like some Muggles would manage to survive the disaster, some Wizards would survive as well- With the technological world crippled, what chance could the survivors stand against Magic??

This would be an excellent fanfiction =)

Anyway, it would be foolish to start a nuclear war: If they have already Imperiused the most powerful world leaders, then the Wizards would effectively be the rulers of the Muggle world.

@Queshire: I know that all of the tactics that I have proposed would be considered awful and illegal by most Wizards, and many of them would oppose the war: This would never happen for real in the Harry Potter world, the Author would hate it =)

The idea here is to imagine what would happen if the Wizards suddenly decided to take over the world and enslave the Muggles, maybe because Dark Wizards are in charge of their governments or they all went evil for whatever reason, who knows? I am just trying to imagine the most terrible things that this particular Magic could do.

My ideas are evil, so any Dark Wizard could dream of all of them and maybe even worse...

A magically-enhanced disease would perhaps be the easiest way to attack: In the real world, we could be in trouble even with modern medicine if diseases like a mutant Flu or some other _natural_ virus appears and causes a pandemic... Now what would happen if such a danger was made even more dangerous using dark Magic??

@Steerpike: Excellent idea, but engineering a biological weapon like that would take too long!! The magical plague would be faster =)


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## ThinkerX (May 1, 2012)

> The idea here is to imagine what would happen if the Wizards suddenly decided to take over the world and enslave the Muggles, maybe because Dark Wizards are in charge of their governments or they all went evil for whatever reason, who knows? I am just trying to imagine the most terrible things that this particular Magic could do



Never really got into the Harry Potter books (dodges assorted objects), but if this is the route you want to go, there is one doable, more or less morally acceptable way to pull it off:

Conquor the world to save the people from themselves. Things get so bad that the wizards, even the 'good' ones, feel they have no choice but to step in and take control to avert total catastrophe.  Probably attempt this behind the scenes at first, at least...until they start getting outmanuvered by the 'muggles', and learn that some muggle gadgets are more than a match for their magic...then things get interesting.


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## Sheilawisz (May 1, 2012)

Please, my idea is about what would happen in a Magic vs Technology total war in the HP world, with the Wizards trying everything within their powers to defeat the Muggle world.


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## Queshire (May 1, 2012)

Oh now if it's everything goes then we muggles are totally willing to go for mutually assured destruction, nukes, anthrax, kill sats, you name it. You wizards got the balls for the same?


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## Mindfire (May 2, 2012)

Queshire said:


> Oh now if it's everything goes then we muggles are totally willing to go for mutually assured destruction, nukes, anthrax, kill sats, you name it. You wizards got the balls for the same?



Don't forget "rods from God".


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## Sheilawisz (May 2, 2012)

In that case, a total nuclear strike would ruin the planet and destroy the Wizards too!!

Imperiusing the world leaders as well as congresses and parliaments would give the Wizarding world a total control of the Muggle world, but as I have said before, that would never happen in the HP Universe because the Author does not think that way and the series is already finished.

I sense a little anger here, you guys realize that I am just playing with these ideas, don't you? For me this is fun, material for fanfictions- If you have been offended, I am very sorry =(

I have an idea for a fanfiction about Wizards and Muggles fighting together against alien invaders, destroying starships with a combination of Fiendfyre and Nuclear missiles!! Fighter jets and brooms flying together... I want to call it _Alliance Day_.


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## Steerpike (May 2, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> Imperiusing the world leaders as well as congresses and parliaments would give the Wizarding world a total control of the Muggle world, but as I have said before, that would never happen in the HP Universe because the Author does not think that way and the series is already finished.



I think it is all in good fun 

I don't think taking over the leadership and parliaments would give them control of the entire world. One of the more silly aspects of _The Handmaid's Tale_ was the idea that the country was taken over by machine-gunning the Congress &c. Truth is, there would be a lot of people left to fight. I still think it comes down to a numbers thing. From what we know of the Potter world through the books, the number of wizard types around is tremendously small in comparison to the 7 billion people on the planet. Ultimately, I think they lose

Maybe that will be Rowling's next book


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## Queshire (May 2, 2012)

yep, just a friendly fan debate, don't worry about it ^^


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## Sheilawisz (May 2, 2012)

It would give them control because they would decide all the laws and the actions of every Muggle country in the world: Not a violent take-over to enslave everyone (the people would not even realize what is happening) but the Wizards would be the true rulers acting behind puppet congresses, parliaments, ministers and presidents =)


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## Mindfire (May 2, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> It would give them control because they would decide all the laws and the actions of every Muggle country in the world: Not a violent take-over to enslave everyone (the people would not even realize what is happening) but the Wizards would be the true rulers acting behind puppet congresses, parliaments, ministers and presidents =)



What exactly would that accomplish? Unless they do something drastic, like try to push a slavery agenda, I don't see that many people would care because their daily lives would be unaffected. Are the wizards just "taking over" for the sake of an ego trip or "just because they can?" Is there some kind of GOAL here?


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## Sheilawisz (May 2, 2012)

Just because they can sounds good, and the goal would be that the Muggles do not destroy the planet in a nuclear war or try to do any other thing that would somehow affect the interests of the Wizarding World =)


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## Steerpike (May 2, 2012)

No, it wouldn't let them enslave everyone, because at some point everyone stops listening to the leaders and/or overthrows them. So they wouldn't have control in any meaningful sense. Not the kind of thing that leads to a war between the two.


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## Sheilawisz (May 2, 2012)

This is a more benevolent scenario, with the Muggles living their everyday lives normally while all government actions are either from the Wizards directly or just Wizard-approved. No destroying the world's food supplies, causing terror or Fiendfyring cities this time, just a peaceful domination over the matters of the Technological world =)

By the way, in the chapter _The Other Minister_ the Muggle Prime Minister is very worried because loads of strange, unexplained things are happening and people are dying mysteriously (a new bridge had snapped cleanly in two, sending twelve cars into the river below) and nobody could discover the reason behind these tragedies...

This Death Eater attacks against Muggle society are mentioned again in the 7th book, and the Muggles were still clueless to find an explanation or stop such things from happening.


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## Steerpike (May 2, 2012)

Just to be safe, we should begin a preemptive extermination of all non-muggles.


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## shangrila (May 2, 2012)

I think the only way that scenario would work is if the world was literally on the brink of nuclear war (think Cold War) and the wizards decided to step in to stop it. Although that would probably just give the normal people a new enemy to unite against, so it could backfire quickly.


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## Mindfire (May 2, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Just to be safe, we should begin a preemptive extermination of all non-muggles.



Ja vol, kommander. Seig heil.


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## Queshire (May 2, 2012)

A shadowy conspiracy controlling the world goverenments? Yeah, like that's not totally, captital E, Evil.


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## Sheilawisz (May 3, 2012)

@Queshire: So, what is the problem if my ideas for the Wizard strategies are Evil?? Fantasy worlds are full of very evil things, and crimes like murder, torture and rape are very common in Fantasy series sometimes up to the scale of war crimes... Conspiracies are very common too, so I see no problem with suggesting evil stuff that the Wizards could try =)

Maybe I have creeped out some people with my thoughts in this thread, sorry for that... please remember that my own stories are full of evil Mages without a conscience that sometimes do terrible things just because they can.

@Shangrila: That's a good idea for a fanfiction, as well as ThinkerX's idea about the Wizards stepping in for the greater good of the Muggle world =)

Now, I was thinking about the possibility of the Wizard strategies backfiring:

_Fiendfyre:_ According to the 7th book, even someone as stupid as Vincent Crabbe can learn to cast Fiendfyre. Now, actually taking _control_ of the bloody thing is an entirely different story!! Information from the Author of the series about this particular weapon is very limited, but it seems that Crabbe either had no idea how to control Fiendfyre or he just lacked the skills and the talent necessary to do it.

Fiendfyre attacks against Muggle cities could backfire easily if the Wizards who do it are not skilled enough, so it's likely that the Wizards would not attempt this strategy. Even a talented Witch like Hermione said that she would not dare to use it...

_Curses to destroy the Crops:_ It would take a new curse to do this, and from evidence in the books it's clear that experimenting with new spells, charms or curses can sometimes result in fatal accidents and unexpected results. The Wizards would indeed risk to destroy their own food supply, and since they cannot produce food by Magical means, they would be in trouble too.

So far, I see no reason why the attacks against power plants and lines could backfire =)

I have a new idea for the strategies, but I'll share that one later today...


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## Sheilawisz (May 4, 2012)

Let's see, this is my new idea for this Magic vs Non-Magic comparisons: Magical creatures being sent by the Wizards and Witches to fight the war instead of risking themselves!!

Little is known about the Magic of the House-Elves, but maybe Goblins with their special weapons and armour, Centaurs, Giants and Dragons could be the first lines of a possible army of Magical creatures... Now, what would happen after the Giants and Dragons attack the cities and are engaged in battle by Muggle military forces? =)


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## Queshire (May 5, 2012)

Hmmm... honestly that would strike me as even more unlikely. First you'd have to convince the intelligent creatures to fight for you, an unlikely event in the case of goblins and centaurs to begin with, but nobody wants to get sent off to die in a fight not their own. The more beastial ones wouldn't fair much better. They wouldn't be able to use any form of strategy, and while they might be described as magical resistence little is made about physical resistence except for their general size and thickness of their hide. Being big just gives muggles a bigger target and their hide would get shredded in the light of armor piercing rounds.

Admittedly attacking muggle powerlines would be effective it again would require stooping to the muggle's level and admitteding that they can't win straight out with magic. A more pragmatic leader might do that, Voldemort? I don't think so.


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## Sheilawisz (May 5, 2012)

Queshire, if Voldemort was orchestrating all the attack it would be a disaster and doomed to fail because, well- Voldemort was kind of ignorant and stupid about the most important things, and he would miss all the little details that would lead to a Muggle victory over the Wizarding world!!

I now prefer to think that it would be _Grindelwald_ leading the Wizarding world in this war =)

You are right that Goblins and Centaurs would not agree to fight for the Wizards, but Dragons and Giants are less intelligent and perhaps they would. It could be a shock at first for the Muggles to have such monsters attacking their cities, but soon enough the dragons would be killed by combat helicopters while the Giants would be taken down by foot soldiers and tanks =P

This is an example that Magic (this time, in the form of magical creatures) does not need to be all-defeating always, so the Sheilawisz's First Law cannot be applied to every Fantasy story... I have another strategy now, but I'll leave it for tomorrow =)


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## Queshire (May 5, 2012)

We don't know nearly enough about Grindelwald to start thinking about what he would or would not do : /


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## shangrila (May 6, 2012)

Well, this thread went off topic quick


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## Sheilawisz (May 6, 2012)

The topÃ­c of this thread is to analyze the _Sheilawisz's First Law_, which assumes that when Magic is used, it's supposed to be far more powerful than anything not magical and so it needs to be countered by Magic as well- My idea to talk about a fanfictional war between Wizards and Muggles in the Harry Potter world, is to discover how non-magic could fight that particular style of Magic (which I know well) and so create a test for my Law =)

Queshire, here is a part of what we know about Grindelwald:

1- He was just as talented and powerful as Dumbledore, which means that Voldemort would be scared to duel Grindelwald.
2- Grindelwald's reign of terror covered many European countries, not only one, like it happened in Britain with Voldemort.
3- He was very smart, which means that it took direct and forceful means by a Wizard equally powerful to him (Dumbledore) to take him down after an epic magical battle.
4- When Voldemort and Grindelwald met, Grindelwald showed no fear and laughed scornfully at him: He told Voldemort that he would never win, because there were so many things that he did not understand: _"That wand will never, ever be yours..."_
5- Grindelwald's goal was to bring the Wizards out of hiding and create a Wizarding reign over the Muggles of the entire world.

I think that Grindelwald leading this war against the Muggles is a very accurate idea =)


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## Steerpike (May 6, 2012)

Didn't Voldemort kill Grindelwald?


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## Sheilawisz (May 6, 2012)

Grindelwald had been locked in an awful cell for years, he was very old, weakened and had no wand to defend himself =(


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## Queshire (May 6, 2012)

Ok, fair enough, I'll admit I am not as familiar with the later books as opposed to the earlier ones, the last book in particular, I was not fond of.

I think in what has already been said, it is clear that your law is flawed. Wizards would require a decisive first strike in order to win, and needing to resort to that disproves magic's supposed inheirant superiourity.

If this was a strategy game, wizards would be expensive but powerful units. In order to be a viable combantant they require a physical wand, years of training, and there are not many of them. Muggles, on the other hand, would be cheaper and weaker, but much more numerous. With a muggle it would just take a couple months of training and a gun to be a viable threat. I am not saying muggles are superior to wizards, they could easily loose, but likewise, a wizard victory is far from certain.


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## Sheilawisz (May 7, 2012)

I like your view of Wizards as expensive but powerful units, while the Muggle military would be a cheaper but way more numerous force to have in an army =)

Sure that my Law is flawed, I never intended really to mean that it would be valid for any Fantasy story- It does not work for the stories of most of my fellow writers here in Mythic Scribes, but it can work for others with stories similar to my own. Whether Magic is very superior to Non-magic or not depends on the kind of Magic, and that varies widely between different stories.

Well, this is my other strategy for the Grindelwald-led Wizarding world trying to defeat the Muggle world: _Dementors!!_

Wizards have certain degree of control over Dementors, and it's said that as long as they are given victims to feed from, the Dementors will cooperate to a reasonable extent. Dementors can also breed to increase their numbers (this is mentioned in the chapter _The other Minister_) and most importantly for this purpose, they are invisible to Muggles and invulnerable to anything except Patronus charms...

The strategy of using Dementors could backfire too, even though the Wizards would still have a way to be relatively safe from them- With Dementors everywhere in the cities, how could the Muggles fight this off??

This is a good example of how Magic is sometimes the best way to fight off Magic =)


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