# Tropes, cliches and subversion thereof



## Chilari (Jun 21, 2011)

One thing I've noticed as I have started writing my new work in progress is that I find myself setting up readers expectations for future subversions, or at least I've made it look like the characters are going to fit one trope when in fact I plan for them to more closely resemble another. One example of this I have so far are that the princess is blonde, tall, elegant, and currently dressed in a very expensive blue dress. Basically I've described her as a Disney Princess in appearance, and have yet to provide evidence to the contrary (though there have so far only been about 600 words involving her, and the set of the scene is her birthday party). Though I've sown a few seeds to suggest that she's no Disney Princess, so far they're subtle; it won't be until she's out of her comfort zone that her personality really begins to show itself, at which point she'll be rather spoilt, very elitist, and will parrot the opinions she is expected to hold for a while before learning enough about the world to later become embarrassed about this. But so far, as far as the reader knows, she's a typical beautiful princess protagonist about to be forcibily removed from her life of luxury.

A second example is a young nobleman at the same party. Elegant, charming, polite, and the princess also considers him attractive. She has a bit of a crush on him, and manages to dance with him while they're both taking some fresh air outside, and nobody but her friend is around. Basically I'm making it look like he's meant to be the love interest. But he won't be; in fact he's under instruction from the man who, for the sake of simplicity, I'll call the big bad (it's more complicated than that, but if we're breaking things down into tropes, that's the closest fit); this essentially makes this young man the dragon, at least for this portion of the story.

In general I don't like stories which stick to expectations of the readers. If I want to read something predictable, I'll read something I've read before, because at least then I know the writing is of good quality. I'd far rather read something which surprises me, which builds up my expectations and then tumbles them down with a cheeky "tricked you!"

But is it wise to set up expectations like this so early in the story? This is literally the second scene, and chronologically running parallel to the first; it's within the first 2500 words. If you'd got this far in and read events which made it look like the princess was going to be the same cookie cutter princess seen everywhere, and you had been able to say "he's the love interest" after the second sentence involving the young nobleman, would you put the book down on the basis that it looked predictable? Or would you give me the benefit of the doubt and read on long enough to find out all is not as it seems?

Also, how have you, or would you, go about subverting tropes? Do you even think about it? Is it possible to be aware of tropes and the subversion of them and not, subconciously at least, either conform to, subvert, lampshade or outright avoid them?


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## James Chandler (Jun 22, 2011)

This is a great topic. I recently had to face this problem head-on in a writing workshop. The elves in my story are viewed by most people exactly as we think of Tolkien elves - long lived, peace loving, magical, etc. But, the story reveals that is just really good PR. The truth is these elves tend to be shallow, ill-tempered, and selfish, with a strong streak of warmonger. The main reason most people don't realize it is because elves like to win and have no problem using deceit and subterfuge. Essentially, most of those who learn what nasty creeps the elves really are don't live long enough to tell anyone else. The whole idea was to take the "elf" trope and turn it inside out. 

The scene I used for the workshop included a cameo by an elf. He had nothing to do with the scene. But, the mere fact I mentioned he was an "elf" turned off the readers, one even actively disliked having him there. "Oh, gee, another Tolkien elf." I wanted to defend my story, but when I thought about it, I realized the work-shoppers were right. Even though they were intrigued by the rest of the scene, the use of the generic "elf" felt, like a misplaced comma. I had to decide between forcing the reader to work around that defect until they got to the part where I reveal that "my elves are different," or I had to make a change. I could have simply done something earlier in the story to distinguish my elves from other elves, but there was no way to do it that would not have felt really forced. Ultimately, I decided to trash the whole idea of the elves. (I may use the term "elves" as kind of a generic peasants use for non-humans.) I needed the character mentioned in the scene to be non-human, so I decided to simply go with a different name. Before I knew it, not only was he no longer called an "elf," his resemblance to an "elf" was only superficial. Now, none of the non-human sophonts actually resemble Tolkien elves at all. 

As for your princess, you need to ask two questions: 1. how does your treatment affect character development; and 2. are you creating tension in your scenes with the princess? Here's a thought, if you want the reader to see the princess as a Disney princess, show her through the eyes of someone who sees her as such and maybe can't recognize her flaws, i.e. someone who is completely infatuated with her. That could be a really dynamic narrative - the P.O.V. character learns to see her flaws even as she is learning to overcome them...Has it been done before? Almost certainly. But, some tropes work every time.


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## Derin (Jun 22, 2011)

I can see how that would be a problem. I would probably put such a book down, unless there was something truly exceptional about the writing style. If the princess is a subplot you might get away with it.

Personally, I like to make the glorious princess ugly.


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## BeigePalladin (Jun 22, 2011)

so long as there are enough hints it's not as flat as it first apears, I'd say it's fine. so long as the reader will know their not getting a clasical disney fairy ale, I'd say it'd be fine.

if the hints are very scarce, and hidden so deeply in the text it requires obsessive sentance analysis to find, then I'd say it's bad.


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## Derin (Jun 22, 2011)

What sort of tone do you use? A playful tone can keep an audience enthralled long enough to get away with cliches for quite some time, in my opinion. Like The Princess Bride, for example. (Great book.) 

Many readers will sit through very cliched stories even if they're not exceptionally well-written (Sword of Truth is quite popular, for example), but if you're deliberately subverting cliches then I assume you're going for regular fantasy readers, who are less likely to tolerate that sort of thing if there's nothing to pull them in.


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## sashamerideth (Jun 23, 2011)

Will subverting a clichÃ© become clichÃ© in the not too distant future? Seems to be all the rage now, and I have already started to expect it.


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## Derin (Jun 23, 2011)

sashamerideth said:


> Will subverting a clichÃ© become clichÃ© in the not too distant future? Seems to be all the rage now, and I have already started to expect it.



I'd imagine most common cliches are subverted more often than played straight. So long as they're not subverted in the same way I don't see a problem.


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## BeigePalladin (Jun 23, 2011)

eventually everything will pass into the realm of cliche at one point, and some things will drift from being cloche, as tha is it's nature, as we consider something clichÃ© when we've seen it done so many times it becomes predictable.


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## Chilari (Jun 23, 2011)

Derin said:


> What sort of tone do you use? A playful tone can keep an audience enthralled long enough to get away with cliches for quite some time, in my opinion. Like The Princess Bride, for example. (Great book.)
> 
> Many readers will sit through very cliched stories even if they're not exceptionally well-written (Sword of Truth is quite popular, for example), but if you're deliberately subverting cliches then I assume you're going for regular fantasy readers, who are less likely to tolerate that sort of thing if there's nothing to pull them in.



Well, it's not exactly deliberate. It's just something that happened when I started writing, and which I decided to keep because, I dunno, I liked the idea of it. I have a story I want to tell, and it just so happens that there are certain tropes that crop up - as one might imagine. I've spent too many hours on TV tropes not to notice when a character I'm writing is a dragon (archetypal, not firebreathing), and I have no problem with having characters which conform to certain tropes, provided when I write the reason that certain events happen is because the characters would act like that, not because that's what archetypal dragons tend to do.

I'm going for a serious tone; I'm no good at funny and there are certain underlying messages I want to convey which relate to normal, everyday life as much as they do to the story. Bearing that in mind, I'm hoping that by the time the reader reaches the part of the story I'm talking about in my original post above, they'll realise that this story is something more. I've put in a few hints that court life isn't perfect - you can see some in the passage I posted in the Showcase, and there's one line where the princess treats a slave like part of the furniture - so it's clear to an alert reader, at least, that Nera isn't the perfect, generous, pretty, impossible individual that often get written about by teenaged girls the world over. So while in one sense it's a subversion of a trope, in another sense it's what a character in that position should be but so often isn't.

As for my target audience, I don't have a clue who I'm going for. I don't read much high fantasy - epic battles of good vs evil, dragons, elves, dwarves, etc are all well and good, and certainly make great movies, but I prefer to read about characters overcoming demons of a different sort, and so that's what I prefer to write as well. I don't know if it'll ever get published, and it almost doesn't matter because mostly I just want to tell the story I want to read. I don't know if it's the sort of thing other people want to read and chances are, if I finish it, it'll be read by maybe two or three people.

And in reply to your earlier post, the princess's story is a main plotline, but not the only one. The way in which she develops, learns about the people who make up the kingdom her mother rules and what that means for her, is a key plot, but there are other characters whose personal development, while in many ways more subtle, is just as important. Two characters in particular hold onto their prejudices to the point that one risks her life rather than change the way she thinks, and another has something of an existential crisis before accepting that the world is not the way he previously saw it. So the story isn't _about_ subverting cliches and tropes, and when I began writing it that was not my intention, but because the story I want to tell involves it, I'd rather be aware when I'm doing it than unknowingly blunder into something. If that makes any sense?


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## Derin (Jun 24, 2011)

Then I don't think you'll have much of a problem. Common tropes that naturally arise from a good stories aren't off-putting, only cliches used as a formula by unimaginitive writers are. If you hang out on tvtropes you'll find descriptions for pretty much anything you could write anyway.


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## Smaug (Jun 24, 2011)

I think as long as you hint to the reader that she isn't all she seems to be, that's enough to start. Most people are intelligent enough that if you only describe what the princess does and says, and not what she thinks, they will become a little suspicious. Especially if you describe her through the eyes of another character, as mentioned above. Then you can bring out the biases and personality of that character as well.


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## BeigePalladin (Jun 24, 2011)

your plot sounds good, so I don't think you'll have a problem at all


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## CicadaGrrl (Jun 26, 2011)

Just be careful you give an occasional hint of the difference.  Otherwise they will buy the first impression and lose interest.


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## CicadaGrrl (Jul 9, 2011)

Even if you have a character pov in love with Nera, as long as what Nera actually says and does is pretty immediately notably different, that will probably peak author interest.  When I was nine I had a blue eyed, golden haired, exprincess.  She ran away and picked up with some mercenaries.  

The fact is tropes, clichÃ©s, whatever we want to wonder about to each other--it's all been done before, and will be done again.  It is just in your timing (often no help there) and how well you do it.


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