# Could we have a 18and up forum?



## morfiction (Aug 24, 2012)

I was talking to a mod and he suggested I ask.


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## Ankari (Aug 24, 2012)

What purpose would that serve?


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## FatCat (Aug 24, 2012)

You could talk about the woes of being a legal adult and smoking cigarettes.


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## Philip Overby (Aug 25, 2012)

How would you propose this 18 and up forum would be conducted, morfiction?  What would separate it from what we have now?


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## Ankari (Aug 25, 2012)

I don't see the benefit of an age segregated forum.  This is a writers' community.  That in itself should allow for us to discuss any topic as it applies to the art of storytelling - as long as it's done tastefully.  Besides, I don't even think this forum tracks age, does it?


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## Zero Angel (Aug 25, 2012)

I think my birthday is in my profile....

But I can understand if people felt they had to censor themselves in a "public" forum or if they wanted advice on say, fantasy erotica?


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## Ankari (Aug 25, 2012)

> But I can understand if people felt they had to censor themselves in a "public" forum or if they wanted advice on say, fantasy erotica?



I see.  Is there a law that prohibits minors from writing erotica?  Are adults prohibited from engaging minors in such a topic on a forums?  I ask earnestly, I don't know.


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## Zero Angel (Aug 25, 2012)

For the first one I think they could write it, but they wouldn't be allowed to read what they wrote (depending on location) and for the second I would almost guarantee it was illegal.


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## Lawfire (Aug 25, 2012)

Ankari said:


> Are adults prohibited from engaging minors in such a topic on a forums?  I ask earnestly, I don't know.


I certainly would not recommend doing it. Many states have decency laws on the books, as well as laws prohibiting contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Not to mention doing so across state lines...


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## morfiction (Aug 25, 2012)

Phil the Drill said:


> How would you propose this 18 and up forum would be conducted, morfiction?  What would separate it from what we have now?



Well, the content of much of my fiction is blood-soaked, violent stuff with a few erotic scenes tossed in there. I'm on a separate website that I mentioned to Reaver... I labeled all my stuff with the "Adult" tags and went into their adults only forum asking for feedback. My message was deleted, was told to ask for feedback in the public section of the forum. Okay... so I made it clear my writing was adult stuff with Not Safe For Work Tendencies and asked for feedback again. This second post was deleted as well. Then I'm given a second PM that says "label all your stuff appropriately" which I already had. The PM reminded me "We have quite a few young people on here." 

No freaking, duh. I asked for feedback in their adults only chat because I knew this without being told... So I can't even get feedback over there or a crit because I'm sure each time I ask some other doofus is gonna tell me "The adults only section is not the appropriate place to ask for feedback." ... What kinda monkeys do they have running that asylum anyway????? 

So, really if someone wants to let it all hang out AND they have R-rated stories to tell AND they are over 18, they can't share here as is. So thus the suggestion of an adult section.


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## Butterfly (Aug 25, 2012)

You could always create a group here in order to find writers of a similar subject and suitable age to critique each other's work via e-mail.

Group entry would likely have to moderated though just to make sure everyone in it was over 18.


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## Devor (Aug 25, 2012)

I think most of what would happen in an Adults-only writing forum would bring down the quality of the community and be a major strain on the moderators.  Adult content can be done professionally - don't get me wrong - but the internet is swarming with people who want to be tasteless for the sake of being tasteless.  I think it would be a bad idea to put out a clarion call for that kind of content.


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## Philip Overby (Aug 25, 2012)

I don't think there's much of a demand for this.  Many of us have formed relationships with other writers and if we feel comfortable with them, we can share whatever.  My writing is blood-soaked as well, but I don't share most of that on the forum for a reason.  Reach out feelers and see if anyone would be interested in reading your story.  There is a Writing Group section now used for that very purpose.  

I think if others were clamoring for a place to post more adult oriented material, then maybe this would be good.  From my personal stand-point though, I don't really think it's needed at the moment.


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## PrincessaMiranda (Aug 25, 2012)

having an Adults Only forum would most likely only fuel the younger persons desire to read what was in there. I know I HAD to get into anything off limits just to see. There really isn't a point, but if you do think that your stuff is too adult you could always just put a warning. I don't think it's that much of a big deal.


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## Mindfire (Aug 25, 2012)

I'm with Devor. Making an "Adult's Only" section is like erecting a giant neon billboard that says "Put your porn here!" and then erecting another giant neon billboard next to it inviting all the anonymous weirdos from across the interwebs to come and read/stare at it. 

In short, probably a bad idea that is more likely to debase the quality and reputation of the forum as a whole than contribute anything of worth. Sure, the people who are here _now _are good and decent. But once you put up that "adult only" partition you're practically inviting _new _people to join up whose primary interest is not writing, but smut. Once that happens it all goes downhill.

I think it's better to include a warning/disclaimer at the beginning of a post for the benefit of the fainthearted/underage (although let's be honest, even if you put up a special section, underage kids will find their way in regardless) than it is to devote an entire section to "adult content". Writing is the primary interest here, "adult" stuff should be incidental to that, not the other way round.


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## Zero Angel (Aug 25, 2012)

Well that is the other thing too. Unless something is pure erotica, there really aren't age limits on books anywhere, is there? I know I was reading adult fiction from middle school on and the only warning I ever got were that they used big words, to which I was always condescending to the idiot adult telling me that.


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## Telcontar (Aug 26, 2012)

In addition to various other arguments against this:

It is functionally impossible to actually determine a person's age online. We can say it is 18 and over, but it wouldn't actually be.


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## Chime85 (Aug 26, 2012)

To be honest I see no reason to put these restrictions on. For one, it is impossible to judge someones age. All someone needs to do is tell a fib on their birthday bit in their profile and theyre in. The system would be relying entirely on peoples honesty over the internet. A way around this would be something like enter credit card details, but that is VERY unpopular and not everyone 18+ has one. 

Secondly, what purpose would it serve? The argument of course is that it stop minors from viewing explicit content. Thats all well and good, but considering minors these days are exposed to alot of expicit content through music videos, music itself and many other mediums, it seems trite to prevent them from looking up a naughty word or two.

If anything, why not simply have a "explicit content" warning. Something no bigger than a smiley. I Don't know, something like this: _*xxx*_ next to the thread heading. That way, people would know the thread has explicit content and can decide for themselves wether or not they wish to view it. 

x


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## Steerpike (Aug 26, 2012)

1) Labeling a thread doesn't get around the fact that sexually-explicit content and swearing / obscenities are prohibited by the Forum Guidelines. In other words, if your story has that sort of content then it arguably doesn't belong on the site to begin with.

2) Having a way for a user to enter an age (if you were going to have an "adult" forum, which I do not think will happen here) is as much or more about protecting the site as shielding the minor from content. The fact that you can't absolutely verify the age is less important than the fact that you have in place a system where the user has to affirmatively lie to you about his age to access the content.

It doesn't seem to me like there is sufficient call for this content on Mythic Scribes to warrant an "adult" forum. The mere presence of one also goes against the presentation of a site as a family and child-friendly site. Family-friendly sites tend not to have areas of explicit adult content, regardless of access restrictions, and when a person loads the forums and sees that one exists, it gives quite a different impression of the place.

I think the point about inviting certain types of content is valid as well, though if it is all in an adult-only forum, then the content is very easily avoided. On the whole, though, would it bring a benefit to the site, and would the benefit outweight the burdens (e.g. increased need for moderation, non-family or child friendly appearance, need for a system to affirm age and accept the 'adult' content, and so on). It doesn't seem to me that the benefit to the site would be great, so I'm not in favor of the idea. Personally, I don't mind adult content - it doesn't offend me to read it. I just don't think it would fit in well with the character and purpose of Mythic Scribes.


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## Mindfire (Aug 26, 2012)

You know, I keep forgetting we have a lawyer around here.


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## morfiction (Aug 26, 2012)

Lawfire said:


> I certainly would not recommend doing it. Many states have decency laws on the books, as well as laws prohibiting contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Not to mention doing so across state lines...



Very well, I'll have to keep my gritty stuff out of here. I hadn't thought of laws. 

To be clear, I am not complaining about this website. Just saying my imagination is a very dark, dark place that often takes me on adventures I cannot share to the general public. 

I do have questions, though. And I do recommend this site to anyone even remotely interested in writing.


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## ALB2012 (Aug 29, 2012)

My book does contain both violent and erotic elements. I do have a 18+ warning on it.
There are plenty of facebook pages for erotica writers and forums


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## Sheilawisz (Aug 29, 2012)

Having a 18+ Forum is a really bad idea, it would cause loads of trouble and it goes against the concept of Mythic Scribes as a family-friendly site and community... not to mention that we have _no way_ to verify the real ages of people using the site, and that could cause legal complications as well.


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## Gutendaug (Sep 5, 2012)

I wish that this forum could be of all ages to invite everyone to the joys of writing. Not the crap which some people call Erotica. I see it as a horrible thing to expose anyone to. Even Adults.


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## Mindfire (Sep 5, 2012)

Gutendaug said:


> I wish that this forum could be of all ages to invite everyone to the joys of writing. Not the crap which some people call Erotica. I see it as a horrible thing to expose anyone to. Even Adults.



Careful. I think we have someone on here who writes erotica...


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## Feo Takahari (Sep 5, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Careful. I think we have someone on here who writes erotica...



It's the intersection of two problems:

1): To get an audience on the Internet, it's best to write erotica or fanfiction. I'm bad at writing fanfiction.

2): A lot of the stories I want to tell deal with issues of sexuality, some of which would be very controversial if published in a mainstream magazine. It's difficult to convince magazine editors to take a chance on such a story, but the erotica crowd will lap it up if I make the sex graphic enough.

That's not to say I neglect the sex--I treat sex scenes like fight scenes in goofy superhero movies, included even in places where they don't improve the story much, but not included if they'd make the story worse. Nor does it mean that every story I want to tell that involves sex can be written as erotica, for the same reason that a serious story about violence doesn't work if the violence is as cartoonish and stylized as in a goofy superhero movie.

With that said, I've mostly got what I want. I don't write story-length sex scenes, so when I want to ask a question relating to one of my stories, it's more likely than not to relate to a nonsexual scene, which I can quote in full. (The one time I had to ask a sexuality question, specifically relating to white fetishization of black rapists, I asked for responses that were "as tasteful as possible," and I received them.)


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## Gutendaug (Sep 7, 2012)

I dont care. I think it's evil and ridiculous. Do I not have the right to my own opinion?


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## Mindfire (Sep 7, 2012)

Gutendaug said:


> I dont care. I think it's evil and ridiculous. Do I not have the right to my own opinion?



Sure you do. Just be respectful of others. I'm not going to sing the praises of erotica anytime soon. But I'm also not going to attack members of this community if I can help it.


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## FatCat (Sep 7, 2012)

Agreed with Mindfire, you can have your opinions, but like they say, if you can't say anything nice....


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Sep 8, 2012)

Gutendaug said:


> I dont care. I think it's evil and ridiculous. Do I not have the right to my own opinion?



Wait... you think that all erotica _of any kind_ is evil and ridiculous? That sounds like you're painting with a pretty broad brush. Just like with any genre, there's good and bad erotica out there.


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## robertbevan (Sep 8, 2012)

seriously... six posts into a forum is a bit early to start calling people's writing ridiculous and... ha ha ha "evil".


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## Endymion (Sep 8, 2012)

Gutendaug said:


> I dont care. I think it's evil and ridiculous. Do I not have the right to my own opinion?



How is it evil? 
But yeah, I'm also against it for already stated reasons.


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## Philip Overby (Sep 8, 2012)

Yeah, let's keep in mind to share our opinions about things in a respectful way.  Even if we don't agree, we need to be mindful of such.


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## Chime85 (Sep 8, 2012)

> I dont care. I think it's evil and ridiculous. Do I not have the right to my own opinion?


In no way would I describe erotica as ridiculous, let alone, evil. I'll admit, it's not my thing, there are many other genres I would much prefer ot read. However, it would be impertinant and wrong of me to label the writers (and readers) evil, simply because they lean to a particular genre. 

there are many evils in this world (and the ones we create), and I personally believe erotic literature is a far cry from tyranny, torture, war and bigotry. We have the freedom to write our wants, our views and our thoughts. We also have the freedom, chose which of those thoughts we wish to read.

On a more topical note, instead of an 18 and up portion, can we perhaps just have a "sin bin" thread. A place all the naughty words and ideas are put, but can never be uttered on any other thread.

x


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## Reaver (Sep 8, 2012)

I would think by now that the knowledge that there will be no such thread or section is a foregone conclusion. But to remove any more doubt, I'll quote part of the *Mythic Scribes Terms of Service*:

"You must not post, attach or link to any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, _*offensive*,_ abusive, threatening, vulgar, hateful, harassing,* obscene, profane, sexually oriented,* racist, invasive of a person's privacy, _*adult material*, _or otherwise in violation of any International laws and regulations."

If there are any questions as to what any of these bold-faced terms mean as they apply to erotica or any other related genre, please feel free to PM me and I'll get back to you A.S.A.P.


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## Mindfire (Sep 8, 2012)

Reaver said:


> I would think by now that the knowledge that there will be no such thread or section is a foregone conclusion. But to remove any more doubt, I'll quote part of the *Mythic Scribes Terms of Service*:
> 
> "You must not post, attach or link to any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, _*offensive*,_ abusive, threatening, vulgar, hateful, harassing,* obscene, profane, sexually oriented,* racist, invasive of a person's privacy, _*adult material*, _or otherwise in violation of any International laws and regulations."
> 
> If there are any questions as to what any of these bold-faced terms mean as they apply to erotica or any other related genre, please feel free to PM me and I'll get back to you A.S.A.P.



Shall I take this to mean that you will soon be locking the thread?


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## Reaver (Sep 8, 2012)

No I will not. I'm just simply stating that unless Black Dragon changes his mind, there will never be a thread for 18 and over.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Sep 8, 2012)

Yeah. I don't think there's any problem with discussing erotica as a literary genre, just as long as we don't get into the, ahem, particulars.  (I may be wrong of course, it's up to BD.)


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## Gutendaug (Sep 8, 2012)

It invokes sin, which in my faith is evil.


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## Gutendaug (Sep 8, 2012)

"Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts, which wage war against the soul." (1 Peter 2:11)

Im not trying to judge people. I'm trying to help people.


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## Mindfire (Sep 8, 2012)

Gutendaug said:


> "Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts, which wage war against the soul." (1 Peter 2:11)
> 
> Im not trying to judge people. I'm trying to help people.



I'm a Christian too, Gutendaug. But I've learned through experience that sermonizing is rarely the best way to reach people.


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## Ireth (Sep 8, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> I'm a Christian too, Gutendaug. But I've learned through experience that sermonizing is rarely the best way to reach people.



As a fellow Christian, I second that remark.


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## Chime85 (Sep 8, 2012)

> It invokes sin, which in my faith is evil.






Gutendaug said:


> "Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts, which wage war against the soul." (1 Peter 2:11)
> 
> Im not trying to judge people. I'm trying to help people.



You may not be judging people, but calling people and subjects evil, you are. 

I will leave you with this "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" there is alot to be said in that, I shall say no more on the subject


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## FatCat (Sep 8, 2012)

Atheism.....yeah!


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## Steerpike (Sep 8, 2012)

Gutendaug said:


> "Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts, which wage war against the soul." (1 Peter 2:11)
> 
> Im not trying to judge people. I'm trying to help people.



These are not the forums for that. Just as we would not want someone presenting an attack on Christianity to try to get people to stop believing it, even if they felt they were helping, we do not want attacks or criticisms of the non-belief or different belief by members from someone holding a specific religious viewpoint.  There are plenty of online forums focused around precisely those issues.  Here,  we request respectful tolerance of religious and non-religious viewpoints,  alike. A religious critique of why erotica is bad or evil is not appropriate here.


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## Aosto (Sep 8, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> These are not the forums for that. Just as we would not want someone presenting an attack on Christianity to try to get people to stop believing it, even if they felt they were helping, we do not want attacks or criticisms of the non-belief or different belief by members from someone holding a specific religious viewpoint.  There are plenty of online forums focused around precisely those issues.  Here,  we request respectful tolerance of religious and non-religious viewpoints,  alike. A religious critique of why erotica is bad or evil is not appropriate here.



I agree with this fully. Religious views are not the theme of this forum.


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## Zero Angel (Sep 8, 2012)

Gutendaug said:


> It invokes sin, which in my faith is evil.



What's your definition of "invokes"?

Are you saying by reading about something it causes you to do something? Is it just erotica that does this or if I read about magick will I be able to learn spells too?

Also, I believe you should look up the word "judge". By, I dunno' let's say, "forming an opinion or conclusion about" erotica, I think maybe, _just_ maybe, you are possibly contradicting your claim.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Sep 9, 2012)

Gutendaug said:


> "Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts, which wage war against the soul." (1 Peter 2:11)
> 
> Im not trying to judge people. I'm trying to help people.



Feel free to discuss religion respectfully, but if your views require you to denigrate an entire genre of writing based on your religious  beliefs, you're probably better off not discussing that topic here.


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## Philip Overby (Sep 9, 2012)

Should Christians Write Fantasy?

We had this discussion raised by this article.  

I'm not sure what any of what is being discussed has to do with "Can we Have an 18 and Up Forum?" as this discussion has veered way off course.  

Just one more reminder about our policy discussing religion or beliefs:  http://mythicscribes.com/forums/news-announcements/2101-guidelines-discussing-religion.html



> In general, don't discuss religion unless:
> 
> 1) You are legitimately open to other points of view.
> 
> 2) You sincerely want to learn about other religious beliefs.



This goes for all beliefs about anything.  Even if we disagree with someone's views, let's be mindful to be respectful.  This isn't targeted towards any one member, just a general reminder.


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## Justme (Sep 9, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> These are not the forums for that. Just as we would not want someone presenting an attack on Christianity to try to get people to stop believing it, even if they felt they were helping, we do not want attacks or criticisms of the non-belief or different belief by members from someone holding a specific religious viewpoint.  There are plenty of online forums focused around precisely those issues.  Here,  we request respectful tolerance of religious and non-religious viewpoints,  alike. A religious critique of why erotica is bad or evil is not appropriate here.


*
Agreed 1000% my friend.*


I used to be an apologist for The Christian community until I noticed so many people thinking that those who were atheistic in nature were questioned to how they were able to distinguish right from wrong.  I, along time ago gave up on religion, sense so many who say they adhere to it base their ideals on others interpretation of the scriptures, instead of reading them personally. 

I read them while I was in the military and what is in there is far removed from the actions that many who call themselves Christian perform. Especial those who favor exalting themselves by virtue of being what they claim is Christian. I very rarely quote scripture because so many others do and conveniently take that same quote out of context with the verses on either side, but I think those who think themselves competent to set in judgement of others should read these two passages and reconsider their attitudes. 

(1)* Mathew 7:5 *  You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

(2) (Matthew 10:14) If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. (This means to me to except them as the are and move on. You don't have to agree or even associate with them, but you certainly don't need to badger them for their version of truth.)

Christianity is not a enforcement agency, but a way of life for those that adhere to it. It's a personal choice for those who seek to fill the holes they perceive in their lives. Not everyone has those holes and those people need not be persecuted for not feeling the way you do.


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## Black Dragon (Sep 9, 2012)

This thread has veered far from its original purpose, and the question that is asks has been answered.  It's time for it to be closed.


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