# I'm BORED with action scenes...



## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 9, 2016)

It seems really weird to find writing action scenes tediously boring, but that's exactly the condition I find myself in. 

At the point I left off in my WIP, my characters have escaped imprisonment inside my assassin school and are about to break into the Headmistress's office. And yeah it's going to be risky and dangerous blah blah blah...but I'm so BORED just thinking of writing it. 

It's been this way for almost every action scene in the book. Instead of being exciting to write they're just painfully tedious. 

So, two things: What can I do to make action scenes easier to get through? and, Will my readers find the action scenes just as boring as I do? 

I'm not quite sure what's wrong. Is there no emotional dimension, no reason to care about the action? Probably. But I have no idea how to insert that emotional dimension...I don't know if you can "insert" it. Are the stakes too low? I think the lack of emotional dimension plays into this. Sure, the characters are risking their lives, but...does the reader really care? Does the reader really care whether my main character reaches her goals? I think not. I don't know if her goals are emotionally compelling, but how do I MAKE them emotionally compelling? 

stuff I have to work with: Main character feels honor-bound to keep her word to another character, who she promised to reunite with her sister, but now she's making said character risk her life and if that character dies... The other characters wanted to leave her behind, but MC convinced them not to. Another character, who the MC is just now realizing she cares about, is also putting her life in danger to create a diversion so they CAN break into the Headmistress's office and my MC is worried her plan will get the other character killed. Also, MC is trying to comprehend why another character chose to save her from death, even knowing that she's turned traitor against the Headmistress and the school. (It's because the other character considers her her friend, but MC is too emotionally constipated to realize that.) 

Basically, a bunch of completely selfish a-holes realizing they DO, in fact, care about each other. That's what's happening in the story at this point emotionally...how does that play into this action scene? I'm thinking of killing someone earlier on than I planned...

It's a systematic problem, though. I feel like the problem is that in my action scenes the conflict is purely external, physical, with no dimension of internal conflict. But I have no idea how to fix this problem. I'm having a horrible crisis of character motivation right now. Everything's a mess and I haven't made it to my daily goal but I can't seem to summon the motivation to write this scene. Throughout the story I've done a lot of motivating characters purely through self-preservation...it's biting me in the butt.


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## Incanus (Dec 9, 2016)

I hear you.  When I was younger, I thought the action parts of my favorite stories were the best parts.  But I've since become a bit bored with that aspect as well.  I mostly see it now as a way of moving the external plot forward.  But action without context just isn't enough to be compelling.



DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I'm not quite sure what's wrong. Is there no emotional dimension, no reason to care about the action? Probably. But I have no idea how to insert that emotional dimension...I don't know if you can "insert" it.



I don't have much of an answer, but I can commiserate.  Basically, my WIP--my first novel--is a great big experiment to find out if inserting this stuff is even possible.  I'd say my story is an 'action/adventure' kind of tale, but the emphasis is on the adventure.

Anyway, the first draft was super thin on character details, depth, internal conflicts, and the like.  I'm in the middle of trying to flesh it all out, and it's been difficult to say the least.  I spend most of my writing time seemingly failing at all this, but I keep plowing forward nevertheless.  In fact, I actually think it will end up failing in this regard in the end, but the idea is to learn from it and do better on my second novel (which is more ambitious).  Still, I have a fair amount of faith in the power of editing (and editing, and editing, and editing some more).  

The only suggestion I have is to somehow push yourself to write through these scenes as best you can.  I'm reminded of a great quote I read a few days ago (paraphrasing from memory):  _I can fix a poorly written page, but I can't fix a blank one._

At the very least, you could just drum up a bare-bones version of the action sequence, a place-holder.

In the meantime--good luck!  I hope you find an answer you can live with.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 9, 2016)

Oh my goodness I have so much to say about this I can probably not fit it in a single post (which is typical for me). 

When I'm having trouble getting through action scenes it is usually because: 
1) The goal is not clear. 
2) The stakes (personal and public are not high enough). 
3) The action sequence is repetitive (we've already seen one like it in the story). 
4) The setting does not lend itself to high tension. 

When I have those four things then action scenes are my favorite! I love writing them! If something is missing then they can drag and feel pointless. 

1) The Goal 

I'm going to be honest, and say it is challenging to write an "emotionally constipated" character that a reader will actually care about. I'm just going to put that out there. And it may be why you are struggling to care as well. I know it sounds crazy, but readers actually identify with characters who feel things intensely, and an action scene is only as important as how the character 'feels' about it. So in order for it to matter you have to make it matter to them on a very deep, intense level. They need to have a goal. Something that matters. Something that is important, to them on a deeply emotional level. Not just to save their life. It has to be more important than their life. 

Which brings me to #2: 

2: STAKES 

Why does the goal matter? There should be two types of stakes involved personal, and public. Personal stakes are why the goal matters to the character. Remember, it must be emotionally important. Worth more than life itself. But, there should also be public stakes. This means that it doesn't just matter to the character, but to the others around them. Others have a vested interest in the character's success. 

If you don't have these two key pillars your action will fall flat and be boring to write because it doesn't really matter. 

Please, please, please, do the pages in this workbook. It will take some time but it will really help you develop your character into someone with depth that you actually care about. It will help you  narrow in on what your character's goals are, and how you can create a steady stream of inner conflict. It will also help you to set personal and public stakes that can keep escalating as the story progresses so that the action scenes become meaningful for you to write. 

http://www.writersdigest.com/wp-content/uploads/BreakoutWorksheets1.pdf


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## Heliotrope (Dec 9, 2016)

A good friend of mine sent me an article recently on characters and intensity that was amazing. I'm going to post the link even though the link was broken for me for some reason. I'm also going to post some of the article: 

http://writerunboxed.com/2016/09/07/intensity/

Ask yourself these questions: Do I wish for my readers to experience quiet, peace, placidity, and calm?  Or, do I wish for my readers’ experience to be intense?  I suspect I know your answer.  Who does not want their novel to be intense?

...........

But what exactly is intensity?  What causes the action of a novel to provoke that feeling in characters, readers and authors?  How is intensity produced on the page, so that readers feel it?  How is it generated by authors within themselves on any given writing day?

When most of us think of intensity, we probably think of experiencing what is extreme.  That’s not wrong.  Extreme action can be intense.

..........

In science, intensity is a measure of power per unit area (physics), such as radiant heat flux (heat transfer), or field strength (electromagnetism).  It can also be luminous intensity (optics), radiance (astronomy), or peak ground acceleration (as in earthquakes, geology).  In other words, intensity is when force is packed tightly into something.  It’s not the object itself but its effect.  In writing terms, that means that intensity isn’t action per se, it’s the effect that any given story moment has on us.

Violence can be intense but it’s not the only way to produce the effect of intensity.  In psychological terms, intensity is a high degree of emotional excitement.  Over-excitability used to be seen as a personality problem, but is now understood not as a cause but a consequence of something else; a consequence that can be constructive, in important ways forming and strengthening personality instead of impairing it.

Psychologist Kazimierz Dabrowski’s Theory of Positive Disintegration explains, among other things, the extreme excitability of gifted children.  Once seen as hyperactive, distractible, disruptive, immature and oppositional, Dabrowski and later researchers revealed that such children are instead high energy, imaginative, passionate, sensitive and creative.  They react more quickly and intensely, moved by inner forces that generate over-stimulation.

That’s true in all healthy personality formation.  Conflict and pain lead to an inner collapse or “disintegration”, which in turn builds stronger personality based on an individual’s values.  The result is autonomy, or what informally we would call maturity.  Grown up, if not gifted, individuals are curious and driven to challenge conformity, complacency and self-satisfaction.
Does that sound like a guideline to creating great protagonists?  It may well be.  Protagonists in general do not easily conform.  They do not run from conflict but face it.  They do not experience emotions in the muted, contained and safe way in which most of us must in order to get along in life.  Protagonists are passionate, principled and large in their feelings.  They don’t get along.  They are excitable.  They are intense.

Thus, creating intensity in fiction starts with creating protagonists whose emotional excitability is above average; characters who react and respond to things in a larger way than most of us would.  Second, it means packing scenes with material that produces a strong response, both in characters and in readers.  Third, it means bringing your own excitability into the moment as you write.

Intensity is an achievable effect.  It makes for exciting action.  It tears characters apart and builds them back up.  It gives readers a high experience.  It challenges you to be a greater storyteller.  The effect, though, comes not from characters or events.  It’s not a function of plot, arc or voice.  It’s the result of your own commitment, passion and courage.  Your novel is intense not because it is, but because you are.


- Donad Maahs


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## skip.knox (Dec 9, 2016)

That last comment, DotA, may be a key. Self-preservation is a motivation that lasts only for the moment. There has to be more to it.

The characters need to connect with one another, somehow. Or, if acting alone, they need some aspect with which the reader can connect.

Here's a big action scene: thousands of goblins descend upon a city. They kill all they find and generally trash the place, unintentionally setting fires which they've no idea how to extinguish. 

We see this through the eyes of a twelve-year-old girl. Now, that alone might be enough to get the reader engaged. We meet her just prior to the catastrophe, we know the catastrophe is coming, so there's a natural feeling of protection and worry, but that wasn't enough. So I gave her a dog. A Roman war dog, specifically. So, as I bring them through the scene, she both worries for the dog and is comforted by him. When the dog has to tangle with a couple of goblins to make it out through a city gate, the reader can worry over both girl and dog. The real point there is: if you want the reader to worry (love, cheer, whatever), then let one of the characters feel those emotions so the reader can feel along with them.

In another example, there's a big battle between Roman legions and those goblins. I have a character who is a jerk to our hero earlier, whose actions nearly sidelines the hero for the battle. I put this jerk on the left flank of the army, put there deliberately by the Emperor, who doesn't much like the guy either. We see part of the battle through his eyes. Specifically, the army gets outflanked and surrounded, and it's the jerk who experiences this first.

He's already been a jerk to our hero, but I let him be a jerk to his own men as well. I show him eager for accolades, tactically foolish, making decisions that expose the left flank needlessly, so that when the second goblin force arrives, his legion is completely out of position. The reader gets to see him make these choices. They get to boo him, call him names, and probably cheer when he meets his demise, even as we realize he may have cost the battle. But his actions come because of who he is. He thinks all along he is absolutely doing the right thing, and blames everything but himself when it goes wrong.

I give two examples in part to show there's a wide range of ways to invest a scene with emotional overtones. To do that, I think it's necessary to know the character more deeply than shows on the page. So, for example, the young girl is an orphan--abandoned, actually--and has learned to be self-reliant, but not by choice. She doesn't realize how badly she wants a real friend, so when she happens onto the dog, the bond is instant and deep. When her mother abandoned her, she went to Constantinople, so when the girl flees the burning city, of course that's where she heads. She has created a whole mythology around her abandonment, her mother, and what she will find in Constantinople. I as the writer need that depth in order to rustle up feelings inside myself. When she's in peril, I need to feel it, or the feeling won't find its way into the words.

The same was true for the jerk. I couldn't just make him a ninny or an incompetent. I needed to give him some complexity that *I* could believe in.

Sorry for the extended examples. I don't really know how to talk about these things without resorting to specifics


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## Heliotrope (Dec 9, 2016)

Great example skip.


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## skip.knox (Dec 9, 2016)

But enough about me. You give a paragraph of specifics, so let me follow up.

>Main character feels honor-bound to keep her word to another character, who she promised to reunite with her sister, 
Why? Does the MC have a strong sense of honor? Why? Where did that come from? Is it innate, or something learned? The answers matter.

And why did she give her word? Honorable people tend to be chary of giving their word. Did she not realize the risks and so made a stupid mistake she has to live with? Did she realize the risks but felt some obligation? If so, what? Why? What she tricked into it? Did she mistake the other character's, er, character? Was the sister more the reason?

All the interesting stuff lies down in those answers.

>but now she's making said character risk her life and if that character dies... 
In what way is she doing this? Does OC (other character) have no choice in this? Does OC go along with it merrily? What is the nature of the risk? What were the alternatives that were rejected, and why? And if the OC dies, then ... what? The sister dies? Anything else? What if the OC is severely injured or captured?

>The other characters wanted to leave her behind, 
Why? This sort of implies that the rescue of the sister could have gone on without the OC. True? Again, why were these specific choices made, and by whom? Those other characters, do they have a say in all this? Can they resist, screw up, or otherwise throw a spanner into the works?

>but MC convinced them not to. 
Why? This implies the other characters are needed by the MC. Why is each, specifically, needed? What happens if one of them leaves or is killed? Would the MC care? Would the OC? The sister (when she found out)?

>Another character, who the MC is just now realizing she cares about, 
Why just now? Is this one of those I hate you, I love you things? Does the AC (another character) care about the MC? How much of this caring have we actually seen prior to the action sequence?

>is also putting her life in danger to create a diversion so they CAN break into the Headmistress's office and 
Why? Is AC especially brave? Foolish? Or does she do so as part of The Plan? For that matter, is there a plan or are they making it up as they go? Watching a plan go wrong is always a good way to up the tension.

>my MC is worried her plan will get the other character killed. 
This makes it sound like the AC is acting as lone wolf. Really need some strong motivation there, but if it exists, that's a great move. If AC is in love with sister, that'd do it.

>Also, MC is trying to comprehend why another character chose to save her from death, even knowing that she's turned traitor against the Headmistress and the school. (It's because the other character considers her her friend, but MC is too emotionally constipated to realize that.)
OK, got a little lost in the other another business, but this makes me think there is time in this action sequence for reflection. That's fine, but this speculation seems a touch ... remote. The sort of thing you'd think about after it was all over, rather than during. In any case, there's always the possibility that one who betrays her old allies may choose to betray her new ones as well. Worrying about a mole is another good way to ratchet up tension.

In all the above, though, notice the repeated use of a word: why. I don't care how or where or when, or even who to a certain extent. What I as reader want to know is why. Goals and motivations.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 9, 2016)

I won't bother speaking to action scenes, I will speak in general for me (since I am the only person I can write about from a first POV accurately).

If I am bored (or otherwise struggling) writing a scene/sequel, action, romance, clue-drop, travel, transition, internalized deep thoughts, etc. etc., there is one reason:

Something is flipping wrong! 

The last time I got bored writing, I figured out the issue and wham! deleted that entire POV. It wasn't that it didn't add to the story, it didn't add enough to justify it's existence. AND as bonus, its deletion forced me to get the vital parts into different parts of the story. 

If you think there's probably an emotional disconnect, it's almost guaranteed there is, IMO. The gut isn't always right, but usually it is in this sort of case. And reading your post, I have a question:

Do you care  _"whether my main character reaches her goals?"_

It could just be the frustration coming through in the post, but honestly, I'm not so sure you do. If you don't, no reader will. So maybe the answer is a simple one, do what it takes to make you care.


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## Peat (Dec 9, 2016)

I think Heliotrope has nailed it - the stakes are the key.

To apply this to what you're doing DotA - I don't think you even mentioned why they're breaking into the office. How does this action scene move the story along? You need to be certain why this scene matters. I think being excited about how the scene fits into the story will improve your motivation to write the scene. 

You're right to look for the emotional dimension. Judging from your post, you have metric craptons of emotional dimension to play with here. You make it sound like they're going from constipated to not in the middle of a battle. That's big. I think you can do something with that.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 10, 2016)

Thanks for all the replies guys  

I see lots of the potential problems being brought up in my story right now. Yes, we have had a similar action scene before. The stakes are the characters' lives, but i feel like it needs to be about more than just self-preservation. The goal itself isn't that compelling, I don't think. 

And...yeah. My character motivations have been a complete mess throughout this book. That's what you get for pantsing with a character who's emotionally constipated and reluctant to let her emotions drive the plot forward, I guess. I'll tell you outright: she's a fiercely independent, arrogant, selfish asshole. She's been a street criminal for most of her life, selling drugs or weapons or whatever brings in enough money to keep her alive, and she doesn't care about the welfare of others easily. She's killed people, she's taken eyes or fingers for threatening her...Self-preservation is one of my default motivators because most of the time my MC cares about her own survival and little else. It's the way the streets have wired her. She's not quick to care about others, or any larger goal. Like stopping a villain. 

My characters' goals are...well, a little murky, first of all. MC is trying to stop the villain's plans. I had to do some serious gymnastics to get the other characters to agree to breaking into the office. First of all, the other characters have been believing villain character is actually good for...years, really. And they just believe ii formation related to them from the person they believe is the enemy? I'm not 100% sure that MC's drive for trying to stop the villain is clear. I've tried to almost...enforce her motivations throughout the story. But they still seem inauthentic. 

How do you motivate a character to care about what happens to the world around them, to care about something bigger than themselves? Rocket from GotG has the best answer: "Because I'm one of the idiots who lives in it!" This is basically her motivation. But...it's kind of grasping at straws at this point because she doesn't *know* how the villain's plan will affect her negatively...so...

The villain's plan includes starting a war, basically destroying society and restarting. How on earth do you make a character want to stop a villain from creating a dystopia when things are already about as bad as they can get??? (Everything is polluted, rain is acid, dire poverty, drugs and plague everywhere. Things are BAD.) Right now the MC is assuming that because the villain went to such great lengths to conceal her plans, she must have a terrible secret. But this feels like grasping at straws. 

Of course, the villain has already lied and manipulated her (something she hates, because she's independent and hates being manipulated, and as mentioned before, she does have some kind of sense of honor.) and has also harmed characters the MC cares about (is just now realizing she cares about). But is that enough? It doesn't feel like enough for her to try to stop the villain. Hate the villain, sure. But risk her life to stop her? 

I keep struggling with WHY does my selfish, independent character care about stopping the villain? I mean, there are the things I've mentioned above, which are enough to make my MC hate the villain, but she's more the type that would run from her than try to stop her. 

So, she's breaking into villain's office to try to stop her plans. But, I'm having trouble figuring out why. 

My go-to for when a character is lacking motivation is to think about her relationships and threaten someone she loves. (I write mainly relationship-driven stories, so I like it.) but the villain's plan doesn't directly threaten anyone she loves, or her, really. And she doesn't really DEVELOP these attachments to the other characters until late in the story. Like, she's JUST NOW realizing she cares about them.

Gah, this will be hard to explain. My plot is EXTREMELY COMPLICATED. But I'll try. Please don't laugh at it; I'm very self-conscious as it is. 

So, I have four characters in play here: my MC, Leslie, Justine; and...actually we don't know the fourth character's name, but her nickname (and not an altogether inaccurate one) is Bonkers. 

The main villain is the headmistress of the assassin school, but the other characters don't know that. Only the MC knows the whole truth. She was told that by another character who the other characters believe is the enemy. Basically, MC was captured by enemy character and was revealed the truth about the Headmistress and all the secrets and weird coincidences immediately made sense. (First problem, how does MC decide so surely who to believe?) MC makes a deal with Justine, who works with enemy character, but who has a sister who is an alumnus at the school and one of the Headmistress's most skilled goons, to help her escape in exchange for helping her reunite with her sister. MC is struck by how willing Justine is to agree to this, even on a distant hope. So, MC is bound by her word to help Justine. (No, these aren't placeholder names. I like them. NO JUDGY.) 

Fast forward a few chapters and they are both captured and imprisoned at the school by the Headmistress, who has labeled them traitors. (GAH ITS GETTING COMPLICATED NOW) MC discovers that Leslie is imprisoned as well. Evil headmistress lied that Leslie was captured by nebulous enemy character, but upon being imprisoned in nebulous enemy character's home base, she figured out that this wasn't the case. Turns out that Headmistress was just getting Leslie out of the way because Leslie knew a secret that could expose her evil plans or whatever. (I don't feel like explaining that part right now) Leslie is in horrible condition, like, close to death, and reveals that the Headmistress has been keeping her in this weakened state to prevent her from being able to escape. So they're all three imprisoned, and will likely all be executed once the evil plan has come to fruition. (Ok, now I'm not 100% clear on why MC has been labeled a traitor...though she kind of is...It's a mess, I tell you...) 

MC's history with Leslie: They hated each other and we're both assholes but MC both came to relate to her, and to be reminded of someone she once loved by her. When she believes Leslie to be captured and probably dead, she promises herself she will try to rescue her, because of the parallel with Character From Her Past. (In short she loved a guy but he ended up dead and it was her fault and she was tortured by guilt over it and yeah. I think I give the full details of the backstory on another thread somewhere...) but now Leslie, to her surprise, is alive but has been locked up in the dark for a month in a state of half-dead. And MC realizes then that she actually cares about her. Since the villain inflicted this state upon her, this only deepens her hatred for the villain. 

In the last chapter where I'm at, Bonkers breaks into the prison black and rescues the three. Now, Bonkers is really the only purely good character in the whole book. She and the MC were roommates and she was REALLY tough to live with (EVEN MORE backstory I don't want to talk about right now) and MC was kind of an asshole to her at first but later improved. Bonkers really cares about the MC; honestly she'd never had a friend before and that was really important to her. But MC doesn't understand why Bonkers would care enough about her to risk her life to rescue her. 

The four are trying to figure out what they're going to do now. 

I need the MC to try to stop the villain's plans. This means she tries to organize a plan with the other three. She still has her deal with Justine to think about, but taking the detour of fulfilling it could kill all of them and anyway, the others don't trust her. She also really, really doesn't want any of them to get killed because of her plan. (She has killed at least five people in the past, but she includes the boy she loved in her "kills" because she thinks it was her fault. And she doesn't want anyone else to die because of her. Choosing to kill an enemy, in her mind, is far better than causing the death of a friend. She justifies the deaths of the five. They had it coming. they messed with her. It was them or her. But being at fault for the death of someone she loved tortures her.)

Honestly I have no idea why stopping the villain is so important to her. That's a HUGE problem, right? I've kinda tried to make her care about the world and stuff, but...she doesn't really care for the welfare of humanity as a whole. She cares about herself. And he's beginning to care about some other characters, but she's only just now starting to realize it. 

Not to mention the huge gaping problem that the villain's plans will probably improve the world more than hurt it and since the other characters have been brainwashed by her to believe that anyway, it seems unlikely that they'd turn against her. 

Yeah. It's a mess. A big stinking mess. If you didn't have the patience to read that, I don't blame you. 

This brings me to my problem...Do I shove through the rest of this draft with my character motivations in shambles? Or do I go back and fix things? Try to? I don't know. I just don't know...


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 10, 2016)

I'm this close to either making everyone bisexual and throwing in a ton of romantic subplots or killing like 2 characters prematurely. (Justine and/or Leslie, but originally Bonkers was going to die, which...complicates things)


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 10, 2016)

At least I've figured out why the action scenes are boring. 

Where to go from here? Go back and fix things or shove on through?


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## Heliotrope (Dec 10, 2016)

Do you care about the character? Do you care about the story? Does the story have an important theme you truly believe in that you want to share with the world? Is there a truth in your story that excites you? Are you putting your own self in the story, being honest and brave about your beliefs/values? 

If no, then what is the purpose of the story? What is there to drive you (and your characters forward?) 

If yes, then keep going! 

But, please do those worksheets I gave you. 

At this point it sounds like your character is very two dimensional and needs to be fleshed out. You have not given her anything to live for. What is the purpose of self-preservation if there is nothing to live for? If the world is shot and full of drugs and death and destruction, and she hates everything and everyone then what is there to keep her moving forward? What does she want? Revenge on someone who was cruel to her? To feel loved? To feel in control? To prove something to someone? There must be something. Think about what that is. What drives her to keep living? 

But do those worksheets!


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## Heliotrope (Dec 10, 2016)

What is your story about? is is about redemption? Is it about fighting for what you believe in? Is it about believing in your dreams? 

Because a reader is not, I'm going to tell you right now, follow a two-dimensional asshole with no goal or purpose for a hundred pages. They won't. Unless they think the asshole is going to eventually get their comeuppance then they won't follow along or sympathize or care about any of the action.

When you give the character a reason to care, to really truly deeply care about something on a personal level then the reader will care. Then the action won't feel pointless.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 10, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I'm this close to either making everyone bisexual and throwing in a ton of romantic subplots or killing like 2 characters prematurely. (Justine and/or Leslie, but originally Bonkers was going to die, which...complicates things)



This is not going to help. It's not. Making everyone bisexual would take away the intensity and deep emotional impact of a true romantic subplot. Make the MC bisexual. Make her fall in love. Sure. That would work, but a bunch of romantic subplots will dilute the impact. 

Killing people wont help if the reader is not connected to any of them on an emotional level.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 10, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> Do you care about the character? Do you care about the story? Does the story have an important theme you truly believe in that you want to share with the world? Is there a truth in your story that excites you? Are you putting your own self in the story, being honest and brave about your beliefs/values?
> 
> If no, then what is the purpose of the story? What is there to drive you (and your characters forward?)
> 
> ...



Yes! I do want to keep going. What I'm asking is what is the best way to do that? Do I go back and try to fix some of these problems before continuing, or do I try to finish the first draft first? 

I will but you weren't lying when you said they were long. O_O 

And you're dead right that she doesn't have much to live for, and actually that's a good insight because I think one of her motivations is wanting something to live for. About 10 chapters earlier she returns to the world she left when she was accepted into the school and is given the opportunity to escape the Headmistress and abandon her plans. But she sees how hopeless everything is and realizes that she has nothing, no skills (except fighting and surviving), no family, and she wonders, is this all there is?? 

So, she wants something MORE. But it's very vague.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 10, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> At least I've figured out why the action scenes are boring.
> 
> Where to go from here? Go back and fix things or shove on through?



Go back and fix it now. You have to flesh out your character and find out what she wants before you can move on. That will drive the entire story and it will fuel every action she makes and every choice she makes. If you are struggling with action scenes now then you will find that it will only get worse as you keep going.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 10, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> This is not going to help. It's not. Making everyone bisexual would take away the intensity and deep emotional impact of a true romantic subplot. Make the MC bisexual. Make her fall in love. Sure. That would work, but a bunch of romantic subplots will dilute the impact.
> 
> Killing people wont help if the reader is not connected to any of them on an emotional level.



Don't worry, I was joking. Sort of.  It does reflect, somewhat, my desperation.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 10, 2016)

What do you like about your character? What about her inspires you? 

There must be something other than her jerkness. Something that you like. Something that is heroic?


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## Peat (Dec 10, 2016)

My first two books included me stopping half way through the first draft, flicking a match on it, and going right to the beginning. I'm not saying that's what you need to do but it worked for me.

*pause* Okay. Actually, I do think its probably the best option.

As you recognise, you need to shove a bit more motivation into the MC (and maybe the others). The likelihood is once you've found the motivations and start writing them in, you'll find the logic of previous scenes doesn't work as well. Best to go back and fix that now.

Heliotrope has some good questions which I'm gonna sorta echo here -

Why do you like this story? What's special about it?

Why do you like character? What's special about her?

Do you know how you want the story to end? What's special about the ending you have in mind, why that and not something else?


edit: I see Heliotrope ninjaed me on question 2


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 10, 2016)

Peat said:


> My first two books included me stopping half way through the first draft, flicking a match on it, and going right to the beginning. I'm not saying that's what you need to do but it worked for me.
> 
> *pause* Okay. Actually, I do think its probably the best option.
> 
> ...



nothing you say is going to make me torch an 80K word manuscript. Especially not after recovering from 2 years of writers block.

Edit: yeah, I know, I sound stubborn, insolent maybe? but the point is that I really *NEED* to finish something right now. No matter how bad. 

And I don't think it's completely ruined. 

If it's completely ruined, I may throw in the towel with writing completely because I'm obviously unable to do it. 

Ok, I'm being dramatic, but i can feel myself sinking into panic over this and I really want to keep my head above water, I really don't want to panic! I want to succeed at something (or feel capable of succeeding). gah someone help me. Last time I was stuck for two years on a manuscript and that was a black hole of despair I never want to go back into. Ever. And now my mind is like, "it's happening, you've broken your story again and you can't fix it again" and I don't want to believe that is true. Am I lying to myself? Maybe. Do I prefer it? Absolutely. 

There comes a point when you need to feel like there's hope for something you do.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 10, 2016)

Whatever happened to "get the first draft out and worry about fixing everything later?" This is confusing.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 10, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> nothing you say is going to make me torch an 80K word manuscript. Especially not after recovering from 2 years of writers block.
> 
> Edit: yeah, I know, I sound stubborn, insolent maybe? but the point is that I really *NEED* to finish something right now. No matter how bad.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, I panic easily over these things...I don't know why...


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## ThinkerX (Dec 10, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Whatever happened to "get the first draft out and worry about fixing everything later?" This is confusing.




Been there, done that - with 'Labyrinth: Journal.'  Then I went back into it.  Lots of pointless fight scenes that didn't contribute to anything.  Cut those.  Cut one character, a sort of master thief type, and handed his relevant skills to another character that needed fleshing out.  And most importantly, after quite a bit of thought, came up with a reason that justified the MC in particular being in the story in the first place.  

The whole point being that the rough draft gives you something to work from.  A bunch will have to go, but quite a few other things are established.  

Suggestion for your MC: give her a reason to think that somewhere better exists, someplace beyond the nightmare city and assassins school.  Let her get word of this place now and again from a distant relative or old friend.  Maybe even let her visit it briefly, and have her decide she wants to be worthy of living there - then go right back to her criminal ways.


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## Peat (Dec 10, 2016)

Horses for courses  At the very least, I think this conclusively answers what you should do next. If you need to finish a first draft, then keep on ploughing ahead with the first draft rather than going back to the beginning.

I do advise that you take a moment to work out the motivation angles first. Both those of your MC, and those of you. If you can keep waving around what makes you really excited about this book and those characters, that's a great thing.



In a more general sense though re "Get the first draft out and worry about fixing everything later" - some people thrive by churning out the first draft then being able to fix it. Others don't. I know some authors start editing the beginning as they're writing the end, because they find that makes it more manageable. Bujold has talked about that. The answer is, as usual, "Whatever works for you".

For me, when I had situations like this, I found starting again worked. If it doesn't work for you, for whatever reason, no drama.

Whatever you have done to the story though, it is not ruined. Pretty much anything that happens in writing a story can be fixed as long as the author has the skill. Even big name authors make some godawful messes writing stories; its just part and parcel of the trade. It might be hard but you can fix this.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 10, 2016)

Could it be it's an issue with your own expectations as a writer too? I think it's really easy to get the impression that action scenes are going to be awesome because there's a lot of stuff going on and the characters are doing cool and awesome things.

That doesn't have to be the case.

Helio mentioned intensity earlier, and I think that's a lot more important than the actual action. If an action scene feels dull/boring, maybe you could just speed through it very quickly, or skip it entirely?


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## Heliotrope (Dec 10, 2016)

Dragon you are being slightly dramatic. 

Writing a novel is hard work. Very hard work. It is the same as being a master in any profession. Not everyone can climb Mount Everest, or win an Olympic medal, or be picked to be the Sugar Plum Fairy in the Nutcracker. It takes years, in some cases decades, of hard work, determination, developing skills, and practice. It is hard bloody work. Your first novel will not be your best. Neither will your second, or third, or fourth, or tenth. Here is Brandon Sanderson's story of his writing beginnings if you want to have a read: 

EUOLogy: My History as a Writer

Basically, if you want to get better you have to do your homework. You have to learn, study, and apply, like anything else. And it will take time. It took J K Rowling five years just to plan Harry Potter. In five years all she did was plan and write notes. Then it took her another four years to write the first book and get it published. 

This stuff takes time. 

In many cases, I would say yes, push through the rough draft and get a working draft ready to fix. In your case, if you know there is already problems now, why not go back and fix them? I wrote the opening scenes to my story sixteen times. 

Yep. Sixteen. Because they didn't feel right. I knew right out of the gate there were problems. It wasn't working. I wasn't connected to the characters or their plight. So I kept writing until I got it mostly right so I could keep going. Even now, I will write three our four chapters, but then go back and address large issues. Then move forward three or four chapters and then go back and address more large issues. It is a constant pendulum swaying back and forth back and forth. 

If you want to be successful you need to take the time to learn how to write. Read craft books. Read blogs. Read articles. Listen to podcasts. Take courses. It is just as important as writing. You can write and write and write as much as you want but unless you are reflecting on your writing (as you are right now) and taking the time to learn how to fix it (as you are right now) and actually fixing it (which you seem hesitant to do) then you won't get better. You will keep practicing the same bad mistakes over and over again until they become entrenched habits.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 10, 2016)

I would say different people have different ways of achieving the finish line. However, when this basic mantra is taken at its purest interpretation, I question it. There is, literally, no way I could write 100k words without editing/rewriting, hell, I don't often make it more than 3k words without going back over things at least a little. The advice, in my opinion, is useful for people who are frozen by editing/rewriting, some folks just need to plow ahead... others don't. I've seen people go full steam to complete a 100k word book and then! They are greeted with a 100k word mess, that's daunting, and many books die right there (that was my high school aged book, come to think of it). I'd prefer to refine 25k words over and over to find the right voice, than to stare at the 100k I would've written 2-3 years ago. I spent a couple years writing and rewriting the same story beginning (with months worth of breaks in between) until I picked up that chunk of words after a few months of not looking at it, and finally said, "Hey! I like that writing! I'd read that!" then I finished up 130k words in about 4-5 months. (I did intentionally go light on back story and description, which has come back to bite me, but it's still better than chopping out thousands of words that slowed stuff down, LOL.) 

I don't give a crap how crappy today's writing is (or try not to), but once today's writing becomes yesterday's writing, I'm working on it. I read it, eliminate some typos, alter word choices and head slapping oddities, whatever comes to mind. This will kill some people's progress, but it's how I roll. Like all creative endeavors in life, it's a matter of finding what works for you.





DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Whatever happened to "get the first draft out and worry about fixing everything later?" This is confusing.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 10, 2016)

I know, I know. I need to calm down. I'm sorry. 

To be fair to myself I'm still reeling a bit from the last project. That one was two years of getting nowhere, and while I was trying desperately to figure out how to make that book work I wasn't growing as much as I could have as a writer. I wasn't WRITING. I did manage to acquire lots of fear and self-doubt, especially over revising (which, unfortunately, all of you just had to see...) 

So, with this brand new project im having a little bit of an epiphany of..."Wait, I actually kind of suck at this." Because I've gained lots of experience writing, but none writing books. And writing books is a whole other animal than just writing pretty prose. My skill level isn't what it should have been if I had spent those two years writing books. 

This, and the several I'm going to write following it, are practice. That doesn't mean I don't really like and enjoy the story and characters. But I am actually doing this for the learning process. I suppose I'm going to learn. 

I ought to mention how I'm handling the revising so far. I'm not actually going back changing anything (besides minor things I can splice in easily, or changing things I wrote recently), but I'm keeping a "revision outline" as I write where I put all the things I know I'll need to change. Now, at this point, late in the story, I'm writing scenes with the assumption that those revisions already have been made (though physically, in the draft, they haven't.) that is, I'm not going with my original ideas all through the draft knowing I won't keep them. I pick up using them as soon as I can incorporate them, but I don't go back and change anything to fit. So...the first draft would be a little confusing to read at this point to say the least. My revision outline already includes many major revisions. My document is full of comments saying things like "Add X in" or "Figure out how to introduce Y" or "Change A to B."

It's...different, but I have several books planned out, and since my plan is to get better at writing, I have the idea that I'm going to approach each one in a different way to see which is best. The funny thing is that up until now I totally was the edit-as-you-go person. I would revise my stories as I wrote them. But now I'm trying something different. I don't know yet if it will work, but...

Character motivation is a pretty major part of the story, though...possibly too major for me to be able to handle these problems in the same way I've been handling the others. The dynamic between the MC's goals vs. the villain'a goals is COMPLETELY out of whack. They aren't acting as hero and villain. 

1. Villain's plan doesn't really actually oppose the hero's goals. (If you could call her a hero.) 

2. Hero's goals aren't clear.

Now, I feel that fixing this is not necessarily going to involve torching half the manuscript, because first of all, MC spends quite a portion of the story developing goals, learning to care about something outside herself. Throughout the story her vague desires (she wants to be loved, yes, but she's not willing to recognize this. She wants more than the hopeless life she has, but she doesn't know what or how.) take a more tangible shape. In the scene I'm on now, she's realizing the people around her actually care about her, and she...maybe?...actually cares about them. You observe that she doesn't seem to have a reason to live, and it's funny because I think that actually is one of her major drives. She WANTS a reason to live. 

I think I mainly need to make alterations to the villain's plot...maybe? I need to make her a villain, basically. She has to oppose the MC. Aaaaaaand this is tough because at first the villain doesn't seem like such. MC is still figuring out her goals, and thinks, mistakenly, that the villain can give her what she wants. But then she realizes differently. I think the part where she realizes differently is where I'm majorly tripping because I haven't really figured out how the villain opposes the MC's goals. Sure, she has dark secrets. But she's not a villain right now. Her dark secrets don't directly threaten the MC and her goals. 

Ok, this is really far away from the original post in terms of topic, but it does explain why this scene is boring me, lol...


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 10, 2016)

Demesnedenoir said:


> I would say different people have different ways of achieving the finish line. However, when this basic mantra is taken at its purest interpretation, I question it. There is, literally, no way I could write 100k words without editing/rewriting, hell, I don't often make it more than 3k words without going back over things at least a little. The advice, in my opinion, is useful for people who are frozen by editing/rewriting, some folks just need to plow ahead... others don't. I've seen people go full steam to complete a 100k word book and then! They are greeted with a 100k word mess, that's daunting, and many books die right there (that was my high school aged book, come to think of it). I'd prefer to refine 25k words over and over to find the right voice, than to stare at the 100k I would've written 2-3 years ago. I spent a couple years writing and rewriting the same story beginning (with months worth of breaks in between) until I picked up that chunk of words after a few months of not looking at it, and finally said, "Hey! I like that writing! I'd read that!" then I finished up 130k words in about 4-5 months. (I did intentionally go light on back story and description, which has come back to bite me, but it's still better than chopping out thousands of words that slowed stuff down, LOL.)
> 
> I don't give a crap how crappy today's writing is (or try not to), but once today's writing becomes yesterday's writing, I'm working on it. I read it, eliminate some typos, alter word choices and head slapping oddities, whatever comes to mind. This will kill some people's progress, but it's how I roll. Like all creative endeavors in life, it's a matter of finding what works for you.



I do reread yesterdays writing and tinker with it every day to warm up. I've found weird stuff, lol. Sentences left unfinished, one word exchanged for another, stuff like that. So far the extent of the actual revising has been switching around two chapter beginnings (to introduce a plot point earlier), cutting the beginning of a chapter and starting it over, and splicing some information drops into dialogue.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 10, 2016)

Svrtnsse said:


> Could it be it's an issue with your own expectations as a writer too? I think it's really easy to get the impression that action scenes are going to be awesome because there's a lot of stuff going on and the characters are doing cool and awesome things.
> 
> That doesn't have to be the case.
> 
> Helio mentioned intensity earlier, and I think that's a lot more important than the actual action. If an action scene feels dull/boring, maybe you could just speed through it very quickly, or skip it entirely?



Hmm. I actually dread writing them, because often it's just a play-by-play of action and it isn't really personal. Toward the beginning there's the only action scene I like: a knife fight. But I'm
not sure if that one has better goals/stakes/whatever or I just like knife fights. 

(I like knife fights BECAUSE they're personal. They're up close, intense and intimate. My choice of weapons in a fight is usually either knives or plain fists because swords and guns just seem less personal. ) 

I'm also constantly feeling that either a) my MC is overpowered or b) her challenges are too wimpy. But, you know, she needs to survive the book...


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 10, 2016)

Hmm, while there is a tendency for guns to be seen as impersonal... Watch the movie Tombstone and try a writing exercise... write the Gunfight at the OK Corral scene as interpreted by this retelling. It isn't just everything leading up to this gunfight that make it personal, watch the details, listen to the details. The twitchy fingers, the look in eyes, Doc's wink, Wyatt's "no", and all hell breaks loose. This is an extremely personal scene.

Let's take firearms to a greater extreme, two snipers in WW2, Enemy at the Gates... a shot from several hundred yards might seem impersonal, but it isn't. The relationship between hunter and hunted can be extremely intense, that 9x scope can make things more personal than a knife fight. Imagine writing some of those scenes between the German and Russian snipers. 

It's your approach that matters... a fist fight can be totally impersonal, or a bomb extremely personal. it's all a matter of how you write it.



DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Hmm. I actually dread writing them, because often it's just a play-by-play of action and it isn't really personal. Toward the beginning there's the only action scene I like: a knife fight. But I'm
> not sure if that one has better goals/stakes/whatever or I just like knife fights.
> 
> (I like knife fights BECAUSE they're personal. They're up close, intense and intimate. My choice of weapons in a fight is usually either knives or plain fists because swords and guns just seem less personal. )
> ...


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 10, 2016)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Hmm, while there is a tendency for guns to be seen as impersonal... Watch the movie Tombstone and try a writing exercise... write the Gunfight at the OK Corral scene as interpreted by this retelling. It isn't just everything leading up to this gunfight that make it personal, watch the details, listen to the details. The twitchy fingers, the look in eyes, Doc's wink, Wyatt's "no", and all hell breaks loose. This is an extremely personal scene.
> 
> Let's take firearms to a greater extreme, two snipers in WW2, Enemy at the Gates... a shot from several hundred yards might seem impersonal, but it isn't. The relationship between hunter and hunted can be extremely intense, that 9x scope can make things more personal than a knife fight. Imagine writing some of those scenes between the German and Russian snipers.
> 
> It's your approach that matters... a fist fight can be totally impersonal, or a bomb extremely personal. it's all a matter of how you write it.



True. I remember a short story titled "The Sniper" that played with this.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 10, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I'm also constantly feeling that either a) my MC is overpowered or b) her challenges are too wimpy. But, you know, she needs to survive the book...



This is an interesting one... the overpowered MC... is your character always winning? Not just surviving? What precisely creates the sense you are feeling? I can't say since I haven't read anything of yours at length.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 10, 2016)

Yeah, it's not proximity that makes something personal. A bomb carried by a drone from a thousand miles away can be personal if we care about the victim and understand the implications of their demise. 

Ask yourself "if my character died, or simply walked away from the conflict, would it matter? Or would the story still be be same? Could someone else step in for my character and achieve the same outcome?" 

If the answer is yes you have a problem. Your character needs to be pivitol to the plot. That can't ever be able to simply walk away. If they can die or walk away you need to spend some time evaluating the stakes.

It doesn't matter if it is hand to hand combat or guns, if the character doesn't matter to the reader or the plot it won't ever feel "personal".


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## Chessie (Dec 10, 2016)

The play-by-play is the problem. Take that out and focus on emotions. The play-by-play is a wrong approach to any scene, let alone a fighting one. You don't need battle scenes in order to create tension for readers. I stay the heck away from battle scenes. You won't find any in my books. Why? Because they are my ultimate weakness...because I loathe them. I skip over them when I read. I yawn when they come on television. I seriously don't care. So I don't write them.

You have other strengths as a writer worth exploring. Sit down and really analyze where YOU build the best tension in your stories. Work on those elements of storytelling that are true to you. Battles may not be your thing and guess what? Not all fantasy books call for those.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 10, 2016)

I hear you so much. This is a really tough thing to work on. And I don't think it's just "action scenes" necessarily, I'd prefer to call them scenes that are meant to feel active. Like, I can write a fun contemplative scene that I enjoy very much...but then I get feedback it sucks and is dull. Whoops. 

But action scenes are meant to get a reader's heart rate up. They're meant to be intense and energetic. But you have to have something potentially able to go really wrong. You have to have a reason why it matters to the character. And I'm not talking about a fight, necessarily. I'm in the middle of a sort of graphic intimate scene right now, and my characters are high and it's doubly tricky to go through someone's head during a surprise sexual encounter, and then also make sure her thoughts are properly muddled...but also clear enough that most readers will understand exactly what kind of high she's feeling. OMG. Tricky. I have a lot on my plate in this one scene.

I can't tell you what to do, but I'll show you my process. Hopefully it'll help you devise a similar strategy?

When I decided this was what I wanted to do here, I first set up the preceding scene. The MC learns that she's been cut out of an opportunity. An opportunity she's been waiting months for. Her whole goal was hinging on her getting paid off on this one big job, and then she was leaving town. 25k words spent all on that goal of her being finally able to leave her crime boss and live a better life.

So when she hears she's not getting the job (because she messed something up and her crime boss thinks she's losing her edge), she storms into his room and starts in with some unkind words. 

Well, leading up to her learning about being cut out of the job, she woke in a weird place, under bad circumstances, and pretty much for several days, her life has been spiraling out of control (a devastating feeling for a control freak bipolar woman who can't seem to figure out what makes her happy).

So, when she goes to meet her crime boss, she's rude and angry, and he offers her an intoxicating substance she was once addicted to, and I decided that she was going to do what I do when I feel things are slipping from my control: She was going to purposely lose control because she'd rather break her toys than find them broken. She takes the drugs, answers her benefactor's questions about her recent sloppiness, and when he accuses her of doing something dangerous, she acts in a rather extreme way, which leads to their brief intimate encounter.

The reason I chose to do this is because of how I set up their relationship. He hasn't touched her in the twelve years she's lived with him. That means for them to touch now...it means something. Something different is happening. Something unexpected, out of control, and intense. When you do something new, it's more intense than something you've done a hundred times. That was the feeling I wanted to give. I think that's one of the reasons it's more interesting when our characters aren't good at some things, make mistakes, don't plan, even.

So, because of the nature of my scene, I have a couple real challenges. First of all, which words I want to use, which metaphors I want to draw, which actions I want to show and which I want to allude to. Not to mention, in her head, all the thoughts are blending and her brain firing super fast (I'm writing it like a super high manic episode). She makes some realizations, personal ones and about her crime boss. Internal thoughts do not slow the pace of an active scene to a crawl, necessarily. I love to use internal thoughts to balance out the actions that take only a second to perform. Consider highlighting all your "Movements" in one color and your "Thoughts" in another color, just to see how balanced it is. Physical descriptors quickly become tedious and repetitive, but thoughts can spread them out so they don't feel choppy or belabored.

Okies, last thing. I'm not saying my scene's good. People will hate it and think it overdone or too graphic, or whatever. I don't care. I enjoy it, it does the job I want it to, and after I send it to my crit group, I know it'll either sink to the bottom and get cut, or it'll float to the top and be one of my favorites. Feedback is so very important. Maybe find just one other person who will be your steady, devoted partner, who you really trust and respect. I had to send this thing last night to get some kind of gauge on whether I had any of the impact at all that I was trying for. If not for that feedback that I'm headed in the right direction, I would have worried about it for another week, I'm sure. I'm terribly mortified to send an intense scene to my group, but just having one person tell me it's okay and I'm okay...it just deflates the anxiety bubble that's been building around my head for a week already.

And honestly, this scene didn't exist in the first draft, it wasn't planned in this draft, it all came about because I lost my mind during nano and did some things, and made some things worse, and asked, "What would make this situation (waking under weird circumstances) worse?" And one of my friends said it would definitely be worse if her crime boss found out about it and distrusted her. And OMG! I ran with it, and my whole chapter became alive where it was stagnant and rotten before. Ask yourself what would make this action worse. What would make it matter more to the MC (who is selfish and a bit of an emotional void, I understand). Find something that does matter. Something new. Something very small, even, but crucially important to her.

Best wishes!


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 10, 2016)

Skip, I want to read your book.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 10, 2016)

I just wanted to share this example of a sword duel. I hope it illustrates what I mean about internal thoughts interspersed with action. Sorry if it's rough, still a draft.




> From out of the shadows, a man with an axe approached, dressed in the same style as the other Fjeri, and flanked by two Kanassan men. Vincenzo recognized one of them from the card house, a spectator who had accepted his free beer. The bearded brute before him pulled an axe from his belt while the other two foreigners drew clunky swords.
> 
> Mercurio, a step behind, put his hand on his pommel. “Last chance, signor, or I’ll clean up what they leave behind. A few florins for your safety?”
> 
> ...



I don't know if it's at all engaging to someone who hasn't read the fifteen chapters that lead up to this, but I feel like the internal thoughts a character have during a tense moment are really important. What do they think about during a fight, a fall, a heist, sex, coming home to find their family gone? Those thoughts are really important to readers because they're often the most honest. Vincenzo is in his forties, a lifelong swordsman and rather cocky about his skills. He is showing off in part for a young swordsman who offered to protect him for pay. But as Vincenzo realizes he's no longer in his prime, his body is getting slower from injuries and wear, he thinks about a life he once had and the choices he made that led him to where he is now--an escaped criminal who got cut down off the gallows on his birthday. He lives in an empty stable and has horse shit on his holy boots. Not a great turnout for a senator who gave up his seat in the senate to be a priest.


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## Malik (Dec 10, 2016)

You can also show thoughts, action, and even motion during a fight sequence without detailing it blow by blow.  This is a passage from _Dragon's Trail_ in which a former Olympic-hopeful _sabreur_ (Jarrod) goes up against a castle's master trainer (Argyul) with wooden swords. 

Note that while you can still see everything that happens -- all the detail is there -- not once does this passage use _this guy did THIS, then that guy did THAT, then this guy did THIS, then that guy did THAT._

Argyul stayed just out of long attacking distance, blade covering the high inside line in _tierce_, slightly extended, body almost square. But Jarrod had seen that a thousand times. Standard play against a short southpaw. With a stomp and an _“Et la-a!!” _Jarrod tore into him.

Argyul seemed more ready this time, and the conversation of the blades began.

Argyul’s bladework was an amalgam of techniques familiar to Jarrod, but none that he had ever seen used together. It wasn’t quite rapier fencing, not quite longsword combat.

His attacks were long, straight, and simple, which Jarrod expected from someone his size. Like many tall swordsmen, Argyul’s strides were overly large—covering distance quickly was to a taller fighter’s advantage—so Argyul’s composure went to hell for a moment whenever he was forced to change direction.

During the initial exchanges Jarrod keyed in on the older man’s predilection for semi-circular parries and cutover attacks, noting also his Marozzo-esque bent toward anticipatory maneuvers, his overuse of _tierce,_ and his general lack of pointwork except for a near-textbook Agrippa thrust delivered by throwing the shoulder forward and slipping the rear foot back. Jarrod adjusted for all this, deferred to Fabris to wring the most mileage from the off-hand mail glove, and pressed the attack. He thwarted the parries with doubles, over-utilized envelopments just to prove that he could, and built his fight around a series of elaborate feints which he knew from past experience raised all kinds of hell with guys who anticipate.

In a real fight he’d be nicking the edges of the blade by now, but he tried to keep his parries below the balance in case Argyul brought it up.

Argyul didn’t bring it up. He was too busy swearing.​
Not all my fight scenes are this technical, but the technicality is also the point; this is through the protagonist's eyes. The point of the scene is for us to see what he sees, so that for the first time in the book, we get a sense for just how good he is, how his mind works, and how much he knows about swordsmanship. 

What I'm getting at is, there's not any one moment actually described in this entire sparring match, yet you can still see the action very clearly. So, it's another way to tackle fight scenes. You don't always have to write the choreography. But hey, YMMV.


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## FifthView (Dec 10, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I'm also constantly feeling that either a) my MC is overpowered or b) her challenges are too wimpy. But, you know, she needs to survive the book...



I haven't read through this entire thread, so maybe someone's brought this up.

There was a Writing Excuses podcast that mentioned in passing how to make a Mary Sue or Gary Stu character interesting, and one point might apply here.  Just because a MC is overpowered in some ways doesn't mean the MC is overpowered in every way.  

So maybe you could find the particular weakness or blind spot or short-circuit that will throw your MC off her game.

This could mean that she encounters someone with an ability that is unlike anything she's ever experienced before. This could be an offensive or defensive capability that happens to nullify her own abilities.  Or it could be something extremely weird (gross, crazy, whatever) that causes a visceral reaction in her that throws her off her game.  It could be that her opponent just happens to be a 10-year-old and she doesn't know how to proceed, having mixed feelings about hurting someone so much younger or even an impulsive, perhaps quite emotional limitation on her own endeavors.  It could be just about anything.  The point in this case might be this:  Choosing the right opponents for her to fight.

Another possibility is to consider the collateral damage rather than the opponent per se.  So maybe the 10-year-old is not her opponent but someone bawling out "Don't hurt my Dad!" and rushing in, getting in the way.  (Again, this is just one example; be creative.)

As far as personal weakness and blind spots go...I remember an essay by Ralph Waldo Emerson in which he mentioned that geniuses are often overbalanced in some regard.  So maybe your MC is quite powerful, but she simply makes bad decisions that come back to bite her during a fight.  A silly example:  She's a glutton and will eat almost anything....but unfortunately she must have eaten something really bad an hour before the fight and now she's having to fight while feeling nauseous and vomiting periodically during the fight; maybe it makes her dizzy.  Even though your MC might be overpowered when it comes to fights, maybe she has some other weakness you can exploit that will affect her efforts.

_Edit:_  I seem to be remembering that Writing Excuses podcast as being one about try-fail cycles.  Mary in the podcast (I think) mentioned how even Gary Stu characters (or at least, characters who are extremely competent in some regard) can fail a lot.  E.g., they may be exceptionally well-fit and great fighters but have trouble working out interpersonal relations or solving complex puzzles.  Figure out how your MC is overbalanced in one regard and then come up with ways to exploit the bind side or weaknesses to make the action scenes more interesting.


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## skip.knox (Dec 10, 2016)

DotA, a couple comments you made jump out at me. One sounds like a contradiction with your MC. The other goes clear back to your OP, about being bored with fight scenes and asking how to fix that.

First the contradiction. You have repeatedly stated your MC (and other characters, too) is a complete a**hole. I think once before I said no one is that, and encouraged you to think of your MC as an incomplete a**hole. I was serious about that. You've also repeatedly said she's self-reliant, cares only for herself--the details of a**hole-osity.

At the same time, you said your MC was once in love. That Leslie (?) reminds her of that and may be why MC starts to like Leslie. You also say Jennifer (? - sorry, not going back to check names) asked her to help her sister and MC agreed. Now both those data points to me are in flat contradiction to the completeness of her rear-end-like personality, and of her narcissism. She sounds like a conflicted person with warring emotions -- the very definition of incomplete. That's someone I can root for, because I can hope she comes around.

The second thing is about being bored. Others have spoken to this, so I just want to pile on. The key is for you to care. You care about what happens to the main character and to her allies. Maybe you even care about some innocent bystanders (that one is used in just about every comic book movie out there). That is absolutely first. Then, in the actual fight, something has to happen that puts MC, ally, or bystander into real peril. This means mapping out a way in which they die. Or are horribly maimed. Something juicy. Try plotting the scene toward that end. Death Is Coming. Then, figure out a way it doesn't happen. Or, what the heck, let someone die, if that's needed, though you'll need to explore MC's reaction. But MC needs to react to every battle. Every fight needs to have consequences for the MC. 

The mechanics of the fight then must serve those consequences. To me, it's not about how do I make this fight scene realistic. That is necessary, but not sufficient. The scene is really about how do I make this fight scene hurt. How do I make it matter. Even if it ends in complete victory, some price was paid. As long as I keep my eye on the emotion I want coming away, I feel fairly well engaged in the telling.

Oh, and a third thing, worth mentioning. The villain wants to wreck the world and you wonder why MC would care. I don't think she needs to. But she does care about *her* world. Be it ever so wretched, there's no place like home. It could be Hell's Kitchen in the 1970s, but people would defend it if it were threatened. This is a character type that's been done before (they've all be done before!). She may look hard-hearted to an outsider, but that's because outsiders don't get in. But among her peeps, however few they are, she's fiercely protective and even kind (can be a gruff kindness). Given that, when she learns the Big Evil Plan, she can be like sure, whatever ... wait, you mean she's going to blow up *my* block? She's going to stomp *my* kitty? Nope, no way. Selfishness can serve greater ends.


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## Malik (Dec 10, 2016)

FifthView said:


> even Gary Stu characters (or at least, characters who are extremely competent in some regard) can fail a lot.  E.g., they may be exceptionally well-fit and great fighters but have trouble working out interpersonal relations or solving complex puzzles.  Figure out how your MC is overbalanced in one regard and then come up with ways to exploit the bind side or weaknesses to make the action scenes more interesting.



Also, this. My MC killed somebody in a duel on Earth and it destroyed his life, so he's hesitant to fight, and he keeps getting the crap beaten out of him because he either refuses to fight, or fights just enough to stop the fight. We know he's a world-beater -- we see that in the sparring exchange -- but we spend most of the book wanting to kick him in the ass to climb out of his shell and get back at it.

This also falls into a whole thing about the utility of violence and its follow-on effects, which is something that we don't see a lot in fantasy; we have a lot of hero MCs who happily hack and slash their way through a pile of bodies that should rightfully land them in The Hague, with no repercussions. (Yay! Happy ending! He killed eighty-five people! Yay!)

People always tell us that violence doesn't solve anything. Well, actually, it does. Violence is exceptionally effective at solving immediate problems. It works _really well._ What it does, though, is create other problems. This is the other half of my MC's issue; backed into a corner, he mows down a platoon-sized element in a frenzy of violence that would make Rambo blanch. This creates a whole huge snakes' nest of problems when the smoke clears, not the least of which is the MC curled up in ball surrounded by stacks of corpses and the odd disembodied organ, rocking back and forth and talking to himself. (Hopefully this gets the reader wondering if he just solved his problem or amplified it.) So another option is to keep your powerful character but have him/her keep getting deeper into trouble with every outburst of badassery.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 10, 2016)

Ok, I have to say that mainly, I write very emotion- and relationship- driven stories. Arguments, tense conversations, love those. Fight scenes, chase scenes, anything action-y...There has to be an emotional dimension. 

So, I can see that in this case, my scene is rather lacking in the department of emotional dimension. 

Which, has helped me figure out that my sketchy (less than sketchy) character motivations have finally collapsed on themselves. I think I'll have to go back and address the core issue before I can write the action scene. Or the rest of the book. 

And now, I'm kind of panicking and have been in a state of fear and paralysis for a while now because honestly whenever anything goes wrong in my WIP it is TERRIFYING. I don't know why but I have no belief in my ability to fix anything. How do other people handle it? How do you get to where, when something goes wrong, you're like, "ok, what can I do to fix this?" instead of "I've failed again. It's ruined. I can't fix it," I'm not at that point where I believe I can write a book. I make excuses for why the ones I wrote in the past don't count. Somehow. 

I'm sorry you guys have to read the over-dramatic posts I make when I'm really scared. I don't like rereading them after I've calmed down. But...yeah. I wish I had someone or something to turn to when I feel like EVERYTHING HAS GONE TO HELL. Gah. I love writing but I hate what a wreck it can make me. 

I really want to finish this book just to prove to myself that I can do it. But I don't know what to do and I can't even think clearly right now.

Edit: maybe this isn't the right place but I don't want to make another thread full of HOW DO I HANDLE THIS EMOTIONAL CRISIS?!


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## Heliotrope (Dec 11, 2016)

These might make you feel better. 

Just so you know, nobody sits down and writes a perfect novel from first page to last in a single shot. Nobody. 

103 Bracing Quotes to Propel You Through Your First Draft? ? Writingeekery


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 11, 2016)

I feel exactly the same way you do right now, Dragon. I just realized that I wrote a chapter that sits about 50k words into my story, and for most of the novel, I felt like I was being pretty bold. But then in this chapter, I had the car in idle as I crept through the first two scenes, and in the last one, I put my foot down and left rubber all over the road. So...how the heck am i going to rein that in so it doesn't feel like I stood on the brakes and slowed back down to an idle in the next chapter? I have no idea. 

I don't know how people fix things effectively, because I'm learning it AGAIN this time around. Perhaps I'm just denser than everyone else in the world, or perhaps I'm being more particular about how I edit, making sure I don't have even a single dull or lackluster scene? I'm not able to answer WHY I suck at getting things right the first five times, but it's the truth. I write every chapter about four or five times, adding things in, changing structure, maybe totally changing a character's motivation or the outcome. I have to try things a few different ways. I can't sit down and brainstorm all the meaningful possibilities at the beginning, because my brain doesn't work that way, but I'm actually feeling pretty alright about rewriting, as long as I can keep my motivation going and tell myself i'm not total shit and my story is getting done. 

Super scary, for sure. Just do the best you can, and then if that doesn't turn out to your liking, try it another way. I think this is why there's so many people who are ho-hum, okay writers out there. To get past this might be easy for some folks, but imagine for the majority, who find it scary, uncomfortable, or otherwise too much effort. I felt like quitting today. Like proper quitting. I got so upset over the engine revving sort of metaphor I've got going on, I just KNOW there's no way to fix the sharp rise in intensity and then the steep drop on the other side of this chapter. But I will do my best, and I will go on, and I will make adjustments until things work, even if it means butchering the intensity right out of a scene I like...because I will kill darlings that hurt the overall impact of a story.

You can do it!


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 11, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> These might make you feel better.
> 
> Just so you know, nobody sits down and writes a perfect novel from first page to last in a single shot. Nobody.
> 
> 103 Bracing Quotes to Propel You Through Your First Draft? ? Writingeekery



I haven't even made it through them all and I have to say I LOVE the Margaret Atwood one, "A word after a word after a word is power." I love it so much. Link is going in my library of useful links (which includes everything from research to tumblr pages with funny and relatable memes.)


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 11, 2016)

Caged Maiden said:


> I feel exactly the same way you do right now, Dragon. I just realized that I wrote a chapter that sits about 50k words into my story, and for most of the novel, I felt like I was being pretty bold. But then in this chapter, I had the car in idle as I crept through the first two scenes, and in the last one, I put my foot down and left rubber all over the road. So...how the heck am i going to rein that in so it doesn't feel like I stood on the brakes and slowed back down to an idle in the next chapter? I have no idea.
> 
> I don't know how people fix things effectively, because I'm learning it AGAIN this time around. Perhaps I'm just denser than everyone else in the world, or perhaps I'm being more particular about how I edit, making sure I don't have even a single dull or lackluster scene? I'm not able to answer WHY I suck at getting things right the first five times, but it's the truth. I write every chapter about four or five times, adding things in, changing structure, maybe totally changing a character's motivation or the outcome. I have to try things a few different ways. I can't sit down and brainstorm all the meaningful possibilities at the beginning, because my brain doesn't work that way, but I'm actually feeling pretty alright about rewriting, as long as I can keep my motivation going and tell myself i'm not total shit and my story is getting done.
> 
> ...



And thanks for this. This, and not getting impatient with my constant panic and self-doubt...

Doesn't get any better, huh? I figured as much. I think something that needs to be talked about more is that it takes a lot of bravery to get to the end of a story. We kind of assume, I think, that the great writers got to where they were because of talent or skill. I'd pick inexhaustible muleheadedness over inexhaustible talent. One will get you pretty far without the other, one will get you nowhere without the other. 

I wish this wasn't so scary! But maybe it will be a little less scary the next time. (On the other hand, maybe it's preparation for something MORE scary.) But I wish I could stop getting so freaked out over it. It's embarrassing.  

Go back and fix things or shove on through? It'll be easier in the long run to go back, I think. But I don't know...I'm almost to the end, but what I have now won't be able to hold up a good climax. As I said, goals aren't clear enough.


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## Chessie (Dec 11, 2016)

You probably don't want to hear this but...the whole freaking out/the world is going to end if I don't fix this NAO is part of...well, adolescence. Everything is really intense for you right now. Biology. But do not despair Dragon. It'll pass and in about...oh, 10 more years you'll start to feel like normal.  Jk about the 10 years part but not about the Chicken Little aspect of everything you're going through. All I can say is that we've all been there and there's nothing to feel ashamed of. However, it would behoove you to take a few breaths and chillax.

About fixing your manuscript, these sorts of things take time. The folks here have given you some fantastic advice yet anyone can only help you so much. There's nothing terrifying about writing and editing. Annoying? Yes. Overwhelming? Yes. But there will be vastly more things in this life that will bring you stress and anxiety of which writing will not likely compare. SO...

Write for enjoyment. You're still in exploratory writing. Focus on story more than words. Take pride and gusto in what you've accomplished: an 80k ms. That's awesome! Woop! So now just get to the end. Don't let the fear or anything else stop you. I'll give you a few of my thoughts on parting:

-Get to the end of the book no matter what the cost. You must finish what you start. 
-If it's too overwhelming to fix it in the end, just shelf it and write another book for now.
-Keep a running list of all the issues you can think of that need fixing, by chapter and scene if you're able to. This way you'll have a master file to refer to when you go back and edit, if you do.
-Read craft books, watch youtube videos, learn learn learn more about creative writing. Apply what you're learning to your work.
-Cycle back to add/take out things in your story and this will help produce a cleaner script. Go back and read the previous day's writing or chapter, fix mistakes that stand out, then write your words for the day. Go back and do it again the next day, revising existing narrative through several cycles.

And finally, harness your inner artist. Connect with her when you write. If you're not having fun, if this is too stressful, then back off and go read a book. Take care of yourself most importantly. Exercise, eat well, rest, feed your spirit, etc. All of that helps to ease your anxiety and therefore help you create with more ease.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 11, 2016)

I'm with CM and Chessie. 

It doesn't get any better in that sitting down to write will always be _hard_. Writing the first draft of anything, be it a story, or an article, or a essay is always _hard_ because you are taking something abstract (the thoughts in your brain), and trying to turn them into something with structure, which can feel frustrating at times. 

However, I think with time and more practice you will learn your process, and you will learn that there is no place for perfectionism in this business and it will get less scary. I don't find it scary at all. Hard? Yes. Work? Yes. Scary? No.


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## Malik (Dec 11, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> HOW DO I HANDLE THIS EMOTIONAL CRISIS?!



Do what we all do. Make some coffee and keep typing.


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## Malik (Dec 11, 2016)

DOTA: 

I just finished my first draft of Book II and kill me. It is 103,000 words of pedestrian, middle-school, tell-not-show, one-dimensional bullshit. I was having an existential crisis just reading back over it. But then I went back and read a couple of books whose style I loved, and then remembered some of the things about my first novel that I loved, and now I've started the task of reworking every. Single. Line. Until it's up to par. 

But believe me, man. I went through a couple of weeks there where I was absolutely sure I sucked and that I was fooling everybody and I could never write anything beautiful again. Hell, half the time that you're writing you feel like that. If you don't, there's something wrong with you.

However, after a week of tinkering, I have an opening sequence that blows my entire first novel away. It makes me want to rewrite my first book, that I spent 25 years crafting. If I was sure of a release date I'd send these first five pages to my editor, then post it to my blog and shoot it out to my mailing list. It's that good.

It takes time. And coffee. And for some of us, alcohol. _(The dog wants me to edit this and add that a good dog at your feet helps a lot.)_ And sometimes it just takes brute force and ignorance to just get the shitty first draft down, get it done with the promise of making it beautiful later. 

Michelangelo famously said that inside each block of marble he could see the statue trying to get out. That's this. Don't worry if your fight scenes are flat. Have them do what they need to do, and then write the next thing. When you're done, you'll have as much time as it takes to fix it. Years, if you need it. And you're young; you will. You write very well and you have tremendous promise. But that's the thing, friend: right now it's only promise. Having read your stuff, I don't think there's a one of us on this board who wouldn't go back in time to be you right now. You're going to be fine.

Anyway. Believe me on this: it is way, way easier to go back and _rewrite_ a scene than it is to _write_ it. And the more you write, the better you get, so just get the words out, even if you're like a cat bringing up a hairball and it doesn't look or sound any better than that. This may be a book that you have to rewrite several times until it's where you want it to be. And that's fine, too. Some of us work that way.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 11, 2016)

Malik said:


> Do what we all do. Make some coffee and keep typing.



but I don't liiiiiike coffee. Lol. Yes, I am here, legitimately a writer who does not drink coffee. What about an orange Creamsicle? I'm a sucker for those things.

And smoothies. 

And mac and cheese. 

The above are basically my comfort foods.


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## Malik (Dec 11, 2016)

Ever tried an egg creme? It blows an orange creamsicle away.


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## Chessie (Dec 11, 2016)

Malik said:


> Do what we all do. Make some coffee and keep typing.



I have another suggestion but she's not old enough yet so....

Ahem.

I'm listening to Ace of Base as I type this. It reminds me of when I was also 15 years old and lived in Montreal for several months. Holy shit was that an adventure! NO responsibilities. Carefree playing soccer with my cousins, going on dates with some hot pizza working dude named Patrick...damn. Being a teenager is hard but also an amazing time. Take it easy, Dragon. Breathe. And remember that you are not doing anything serious with this manuscript so who cares if it's not perfect or even close to it? Perfect doesn't exist in life, period. Just write and have fun. You'll get to the serious stuff soon enough.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 11, 2016)

Chessie said:


> You probably don't want to hear this but...the whole freaking out/the world is going to end if I don't fix this NAO is part of...well, adolescence. Everything is really intense for you right now. Biology. But do not despair Dragon. It'll pass and in about...oh, 10 more years you'll start to feel like normal.  Jk about the 10 years part but not about the Chicken Little aspect of everything you're going through. All I can say is that we've all been there and there's nothing to feel ashamed of. However, it would behoove you to take a few breaths and chillax.
> 
> About fixing your manuscript, these sorts of things take time. The folks here have given you some fantastic advice yet anyone can only help you so much. There's nothing terrifying about writing and editing. Annoying? Yes. Overwhelming? Yes. But there will be vastly more things in this life that will bring you stress and anxiety of which writing will not likely compare. SO...
> 
> ...



Yeah, i figured that might have a little to do with it...

Exploratory. That's a word i like. You see, this first draft has so far just been figuring out what i want this story to be. I had no idea what i was writing at the beginning. Now i have a better idea and the struggle will be in giving that form on the paper. 

I guess the fact that i've already written 80K words means I can do one thing: put one word in front of another. And that counts for something, right? 

Anyway, thanks.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 11, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> I'm with CM and Chessie.
> 
> It doesn't get any better in that sitting down to write will always be _hard_. Writing the first draft of anything, be it a story, or an article, or a essay is always _hard_ because you are taking something abstract (the thoughts in your brain), and trying to turn them into something with structure, which can feel frustrating at times.
> 
> However, I think with time and more practice you will learn your process, and you will learn that there is no place for perfectionism in this business and it will get less scary. I don't find it scary at all. Hard? Yes. Work? Yes. Scary? No.



So it won't always be this scary? I certainly hope not.


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## Chessie (Dec 11, 2016)

Scary things are monsters under beds and wicked necromancers. 

Writing is not scary. Fear is an excuse to not produce that you can totally overcome. As you mature in your craft you'll progress into different stages and start looking at stories beyond words and stringing pretty ones together. You'll come to understand audience and their needs. That's when your motivations and intentions change and you'll worry less about perfectionism.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 11, 2016)

Malik said:


> DOTA:
> 
> I just finished my first draft of Book II and kill me. It is 103,000 words of pedestrian, middle-school, tell-not-show, one-dimensional bullshit. I was having an existential crisis just reading back over it. But then I went back and read a couple of books whose style I loved, and then remembered some of the things about my first novel that I loved, and now I've started the task of reworking every. Single. Line. Until it's up to par.
> 
> ...



So relatable. O_O

i was dry heaving rereading what i'd written in my manuscript. Even the things i thought were pretty good were mediocre. I mean, I feel like this is a good thing, since i can see how i've improved throughout the manuscript. It gets better as it goes along and that's encouraging. 

And, yeah. I have this puddle of vomit and i can see the story trying to get out. I've spent these 80,000 words just trying to figure out what i'm writing, really. Now i have a few leads but i still don't know what it will be in the end. 

I'm keeping a revisions document as i write. I write down things I know i need to fix as I'm writing, re-reading, etc... It'll be a map for when I do go back and rewrite. So, it's a little comforting that I can see some of the problems. My plot though. It'll need major surgery most likely. 

I do agree about the dog.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 11, 2016)

Yeah, I know she doesn't like to hear it, but our Dragon is still just a baby dragon  so coffee and alcohol is perhaps out of the question.... for now.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 11, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> Yeah, I know she doesn't like to hear it, but our Dragon is still just a baby dragon  so coffee and alcohol is perhaps out of the question.... for now.



Haha! 

I'm on the level of "that 12 year old on tumblr who gets really offended when you mention the fact that they're 12," am I? 

Ima cute widdle baby dwagon. *peep*


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## Malik (Dec 11, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I'm keeping a revisions document as i write. I write down things I know i need to fix as I'm writing, re-reading, etc... It'll be a map for when I do go back and rewrite. So, it's a little comforting that I can see some of the problems. My plot though. It'll need major surgery most likely.
> 
> I do agree about the dog.



Save your original first draft, then copy it and work on that one. Save everything you ever write. Believe me on this. Otherwise, you will write over something that you'll go back to in 15 years and realize is the seed of something amazing. I still have hardcopies of, like, six old versions of my first book. There are some moments in there that are really good; unfinished, but good.


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## Ronald T. (Dec 11, 2016)

Heliotrope hit the nail on the head.  Action without the investment of a deep emotional foundation -- a component required to give it that necessary spark of life -- usually leaves the action cold and distant.  Strong emotion is key to giving great power to any action scene.  And the higher the stakes, the more the emotions can be stimulated. 

I was going to go into some heavy detail about this issue, but Heliotrope did such a fine job, all I can say is...well done, Helio!


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## FifthView (Dec 11, 2016)

Sometimes it's the cleverness and oddness of the action that makes it so interesting, rather than emotional investment.  But I'm unsure how we are defining emotional investment.  I'm perhaps intrinsically more skeptical of using emotional triggers.  It's true that I develop attachments to some characters and can have my emotions triggered when they are in danger or when some other aspect of the world or story is in danger.  But I do very much love clever and odd elements in action scenes.  The magic in Mistborn interested me far more than the characters, at first, and even later remained an important part of the spice.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 11, 2016)

Coffee sucks.. now whiskey... heh heh.



DragonOfTheAerie said:


> but I don't liiiiiike coffee. Lol. Yes, I am here, legitimately a writer who does not drink coffee. What about an orange Creamsicle? I'm a sucker for those things.
> 
> And smoothies.
> 
> ...


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## FifthView (Dec 11, 2016)

To followup on my last comment:

When looking within, this issue of "emotional attachment" may become muddled for me.  

I think that _most_ of the time, I'm attached to characters because they are vehicles for the story.  It's not so much that I care about Character X as a person, but that I want to see Character X accomplish A, B, & C, and also I want to see how the story plays out.  If Character X should happen to die in this current fight, or fail, and Character X is the MC, then I'm not going to be able to see A, B, & C, nor am I going to be able to see how the story plays out.  (A, B, & C may be new use or permutations of an odd and wonderful magic ability or martial ability that I want to see play out...or even some interpersonal, social ability like falling in love or building a business and a fortune.)

If Character X happens to be a side character, then the death or failure is important to me because it will show the danger in that world or the power of the antagonist–and those are things that can stop the MC in her tracks.

The reason the MC's emotional state and personal investments are important is because these will affect the accomplishment of A, B, & C and the completion of the story.  The death or failure of a side character X could also affect the MC's emotional state, leading to a similar roadblock.

So am I "attached" to characters?  Yes, as vehicles of a story.  I'm attached to the story, or a scenario, and because characters are vehicles for these I become attached to them.  (This is one reason why I can become attached to vile characters.)

Occasionally, some character will come along who will mysteriously, almost magically, create a personal attachment for me.  I love _that_ character for who she is.  But if I look closely, I'm nearly certain to find that she represents something important for me, and the representation also comes with an A, B, C that I want to see play out in the story.  But this type of character is probably quite peculiar for most people; we each have those hidden triggers and backstories that can lead to this sort of sudden attachment; it may be quite subjective.  

So ... 

When reading, rather than care about the story because I become attached to the characters, I tend to become attached to the characters because I care about the story (or elements of the story.)  In practice, with very good books, these attachments can blend so much as to be almost indistinguishable, at least while in the process of reading.

As for action scenes in particular, I'm more interested when the outcomes will have important effects on the _*story*_.  The degree to which a character is personally affected by the fight is important to me only because it's important to the forward progress of the story.  I won't care whether some action scene inspires the MC to learn to love some other character if the love or lack of love doesn't matter much to the story.  I'm not reading the story for all that miscellaneous, unimportant emotional minutiae.  I also won't care much about the personal goals of a character when those goals or the pursuit of those goals has no bearing on the story.

So to reiterate something I wrote just above: _So am I "attached" to characters?  Yes, as vehicles of a story.  I'm attached to the story, or a scenario, and because characters are vehicles for these I become attached to them._

What this means for me is that the story and the things happening in it should be the focus when you are trying to make things interesting, including action scenes.  Brandon Sanderson says to always go for _*The Awesome*_.  We care about the try-fail cycles of characters, the try-fail that happens in action scenes, _because want to keep reading_.  We want to keep seeing The Awesome.  We want to get to the very end of The Awesome which, cross our fingers!, will be awesome.  If the MC dies, we won't get there.  If she fails, we are threatened with the possibility of not being able to keep seeing it.  We love her because she is taking us there.

These thoughts (although not so formed) were behind my other comment about "the cleverness and oddness of the action."  The only Stake that matters is the forward progress of the story; the rest are subsidiary.  And the reason that Stake will matter is not because of the characters but because of itself.  

_How_ you inject the Awesome into the story...well, that's the hard part.  Why would readers want to keep reading?  What is awesome about your story?


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## Chessie (Dec 11, 2016)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Coffee sucks.. now whiskey... heh heh.



Whoa -- stop. Hammertime!

Coffee is amazing. Whiskey is asking for trouble (fights, anyone?)

 But seriously, I'm glad that Dragon started this thread because it brings up an important point: we should write what excites us. I've been thinking so much about this the past couple of weeks. For years I wrote romantic fantasy without even knowing what the hell I was writing. It was only until one of my writing partners pointed it out to me that I realized what was happening. I kept writing love stories about married couples with children and people fighting to love together forever.

So once I figured that out, I threw out the battle scenes. I don't write for that audience. Malik writes for that audience. Skip writes for that audience. Battle scenes are their strong points. Battle scenes are my greatest weakness.

If Dragon is bored, she has many options place infront of her. She can figure out where that boredom comes from. Does she like writing battle scenes? Then giving them up isn't the answer like it was for me. See where I'm going here?

We should write what speaks to us. Even though I write romance, I don't do sex scenes. They're boring to me. I hate reading that crap. I know how it works don't need to go any further. What I DO love writing though are emotions, people falling in love. I know what audience I'm writing for now and so I work on those strengths and do my best to recognize my weaknesses. Like...instead of battle scenes I'll have characters use poisons or daggers because I can write that well. Then in that way, readers still get the physical violence that is sometimes needed for conflict resolution in fiction.

So I'm glad this came up because it allows us all to really think about our audience and whether we need to force ourselves to write things we hate just because everyone else does it. Maybe your audience doesn't need battle scenes.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 11, 2016)

Boy, talk about some fun tangents... my quick thoughts... When writing I love a character more for what they can bring to the story more than anything. Particularly POV's, I started writing one for my book 2 (a new POV but readers met her in chapter 1 book 1) and wham! What she allows me to reveal to the reader about the world and the story amazed me. Now, she'll be a primary driver through through the third book. I love her, much the way I'd love a Ferrari for the speed and style she gets me to the destination, LOL.

The Awesome is a good point by Sanderson, but the awesome must always be in context of the story. Too often I think the word awesome leads to things like the spate of super hero and FX drivel coming out of Hollywood, LOL. The awesome could be any part of a story. It can be Viserys Targaryen getting his gold crown (awesome) it could be Sherlock Holmes revealing the killer (awesome) it could be the reveal of Keyser SÃ¶ze in the Usual Suspects (awesome), or the culmination of a twisting con in The Sting (awesome)... But yes, Sanderson absolutely has a point about awesome, so long as we as writers remember that awesome can (and maybe should even more often) be sneaky and subtle rather than in your face over the top stuff.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 11, 2016)

Chessie said:


> Whoa -- stop. Hammertime!
> 
> Coffee is amazing. Whiskey is asking for trouble (fights, anyone?)



If you drink alone you can only beat yourself up.


Actually, I love the idea of both coffee and whiskey more than I love the actual things. Coffee is bleh, after a couple of trips to China, give me green or a nice herbal tea if it must be a hot drink. I've grown old and boring, I barely consume alcoholic or caffeinated drinks anymore... there I just depressed myself, LOL.


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## Chessie (Dec 11, 2016)

I don't drink anymore. Got in too many fights. True story. 4'11 me.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 11, 2016)

I also found that drinking only made me THINK I was writing something great, heh heh.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 11, 2016)

Two cups of coffee in the morning and two glasses of wine at night makes Helio a normally functioning human being... 

Moving on... 

Yeah, Chessie. True that. I couldn't write sweeping epic fantasy if I wanted to. I just don't care enough about large armies of strange creatures duking it out for whatever reason it is wars are fought in epic fantasy. Just not my thing. I like writing for kids because there is a certain innocence about it, but there are also certain things I can get away with that I can't in adult fantasy. Kids are more ready to believe stuff than adults are. It's a strange audience and I love it.


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## Tom (Dec 11, 2016)

Coffee and Red Bull are the only things that get me through finals season/the average day. If your heart isn't racing like a bullet train, you're doing it wrong!

But anyway, yeah. Action scenes can get old after a while. I try to infuse mine with characterization and keep them relevant to the plot, but even then they can start to feel repetitive and boring. I'm writing a character-driven high fantasy project that incorporates elements of political fantasy. While it does have a lot of action scenes, I try to intersperse them with non-action scenes. Action doesn't always equal excitement. I can recall many fantasy novels I've read whose most gripping scenes were moments of political tension, characters revealing something deeply personal, or dozens of other scenarios that don't involve action. Books that don't rely on action scenes are so much more absorbing for me.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 11, 2016)

Malik said:


> Save your original first draft, then copy it and work on that one. Save everything you ever write. Believe me on this. Otherwise, you will write over something that you'll go back to in 15 years and realize is the seed of something amazing. I still have hardcopies of, like, six old versions of my first book. There are some moments in there that are really good; unfinished, but good.



I never delete anything. I still have almost everything I've ever written, except a bunch of stuff that got vaporized in a computer crash. (  )


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 11, 2016)

Chessie said:


> Whoa -- stop. Hammertime!
> 
> Coffee is amazing. Whiskey is asking for trouble (fights, anyone?)
> 
> ...



This! 

I say that because this, I think, is a helpful key. I know that my thing has always been emotions and relationships. I love writing about characters and their feelings and their interactions with one another. I like to say that I write love stories, because all my stories in some way involve love...whether it be romantic love, or brotherly/sisterly love, or friendship love...Action scenes are pretty hit or miss for me on the other hand. A lot of things have to come together for me to really connect with and LIKE an action scene, and, well, I haven't figured out entirely what they are. But I don't think they're my thing, necessarily. Hate battlefield scenes. Hate them. I prefer fight scenes to be intensely personal, one-on-one, between two characters we know. As I've said before, I prefer knives as weapons. Don't know why, I just do. 

I actually don't know how this applies to the mind-numbingly boring scene I'm on, though. I honestly don't want to bother continuing. I care that little about what happens in this scene. That's a problem, right? I don't know where the not-caring is coming from. I think perhaps I need to outline the stakes a bit better. Something...


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## Nimue (Dec 12, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> These might make you feel better.
> 
> Just so you know, nobody sits down and writes a perfect novel from first page to last in a single shot. Nobody.
> 
> 103 Bracing Quotes to Propel You Through Your First Draft? ? Writingeekery



I'm gonna pull way back and say thanks to Helio for this link.  Reading dozens and dozens of authors agreeing that first drafts are going to suck finally seemed to get through to my pessimistic "logic" brain.  Hammer and chisel'd a chink in my skull for some light to get through.  I wrote 2200 words today, and if that doesn't sound like much, I can't even remember the last day where I broke 2000...  Even had some lines I liked.  "Every detail was drawn through her senses like needle and thread through flesh."  Nice. (?)

I wish I had real advice for you, Dragon, but I think I've become a lot more anxious about my writing at 25 than I was 15.  (Mostly, I think, because I was under a lot more illusions about its quality back then.)  I think we need to let go of the "perfect", the "great", and even the "good", and embrace the goddamn _rough_ draft.

I'm trying very hard to put that into practice with this story.  I'll let you know if the lesson ever sticks.


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## FifthView (Dec 12, 2016)

Demesnedenoir said:


> The awesome could be any part of a story.



That's a great point.  

I often find that the culture and society of a fantasy world are big draws for me.  I keep reading because I want to see more of it and I want to see how the conflict will play out in such a setting.  

Unusual, clever, and well-conceived magic systems also keep me turning the pages, particularly these in context with other aspects of the story.

When I'm reading stories with strong romantic elements, I'm drawn forward by more than the romance itself.  Again, the confluence of factors as they affect the romantic development (world/society, personality types, conflicts) can turn the common story type into one that is awesome.  An awesome romance-adventure.

The common theme above seems to be _context_, or the combination of factors _(Edit: awesome factors?)_ turning something ordinary or mundane into something awesome.

Having an idea of "The Awesome" for a particular story, with sub-elements that may be awesome, can help when deciding how to approach action scenes by clarifying the stakes.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 12, 2016)

Agreed, but at what point does "awesome" become "gimmick" ? 

I feel like there needs to be more than just awesome... But maybe I just don't understand the concept? 

I think you can have an awesome idea for magic or world building but that is not all a story needs to be a story. Story comes from characters and personal growth, or at least change or discovery?


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## FifthView (Dec 12, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> Story comes from characters and personal growth, or at least change or discovery?



Helio, I'm not sure that character growth will be very interesting if the context of that growth is not awesome.

Awesome conflicts, obstacles, and opponents, the promise of awesome rewards and the threat of awesome punishments, an awesome environment, awesome events...an awesome situation.

What provokes a sense of awe may be up for debate–and whether anything can provoke awe if written well.  With movies, I personally sometimes enjoy the psychological drama or thriller.  A movie like _Ordinary People_ tells an otherwise mundane story; but I think it can be said that the landscape of the psyche can be as awesome as any exterior landscape.  (We also have the conceptual conundrum:  Any given person is an external factor for any other person, just as any fantastical beast or landscape is an external factor.)


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 12, 2016)

I'm not sure these two go together, but I get what you're saying. Gimmick doesn't necessarily bring a negative connotation in story telling, but... I'l take a shot at this.

Awesome becomes (bad) gimmicky when it is no longer organic to the story... or a better definition of when awesome becomes bad, is when it severs the suspension of disbelief? It wouldn't matter how genius Holmes's solution to a crime was if the reader calls bullshit. That's when awesome! fails. The degree to calling bullshit also matters. As readers viewers, we can greet some of this with a nudge and a wink, while others leave our heads shaking, or worse, our eyes bulging, or worse, laughing.



Heliotrope said:


> Agreed, but at what point does "awesome" become "gimmick" ?
> 
> I feel like there needs to be more than just awesome... But maybe I just don't understand the concept?
> 
> I think you can have an awesome idea for magic or world building but that is not all a story needs to be a story. Story comes from characters and personal growth, or at least change or discovery?


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## Heliotrope (Dec 12, 2016)

Ah. 

Ok, let me use a movie example for a moment, only because I want to understand this better. I'm going to chose two movies with similar styles, and even have the same actor: 

Gods of Egypt with Gerard Butler 

Gods of Egypt Official Trailer #1 (2016) - Gerard Butler, Brenton Thwaites Movie HD - YouTube 

And 300, also with Gerard Butler. 

300 (2006) Official Trailer #1 - Gerard Butler, Lena Headey Action Movie - YouTube

Gods of Egypt was a horrible derivitive flop. 300 was a gigantic success. 

Why? 

In my own, personal, humble opinion, I feel that the writers/directors/producers of Gods of Egypt relied too heavily on the "Awesome" and not enough on what makes a good story. Where 300 had a nice balance of awesome, which was highlighted by a much better story?


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## FifthView (Dec 12, 2016)

Helio, it seems as if you didn't think Gods of Egypt was a very awesome movie.  I can't help thinking that you already have the answers to your questions about The Awesome. 



Heliotrope said:


> In my own, personal, humble opinion, I feel that the writers/directors/producers of Gods of Egypt relied too heavily on the "Awesome" and not enough on what makes a good story. Where 300 had a nice balance of awesome, which was highlighted by a much better story?



"awesome, which was highlighted by...story."

I think the story is the whole shebang, everything together.

It's not "characters (and all they think and feel, and all their growth)" are _the_ story and the Awesome/world/context is merely thrown onto the story like a splash of paint and glitter.  Or a mere backdrop.  I think this is what Demesnedenoir was getting at when describing the idea of that negatively connoted gimmickry–that it's not organic, it's just thrown on like a splash of paint.

I don't believe Sanderson's idea of The Awesome was meant to be considered separate from the importance of character development.

But I do believe that a focus on the context for character development is as important as a focus on the characters being used for a story.  I personally find basic human psychology to be rather mundane, common, and so forth.  For example, falling in love may seem extremely novel when it happens the first time, but the very same experience has happened billions of times in human history.  So it's the context in which it happens that makes the depiction of falling in love so interesting.  (How did cavemen do it?  Heh.  Romeo and Juliet fell in love in a situation unlike what most of us experienced when falling in love for the first time.  And so forth.)

So my idea of thinking about The Awesome was inspired by the question of boredom when writing and also with an idea for how to make action scenes (or any scenes, probably) more interesting for readers, to keep them turning pages and keyed into the story.  (What will become of Romeo's and Juliet's love, given their milieu?)


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## Chessie (Dec 12, 2016)

Nimue said:


> I'm gonna pull way back and say thanks to Helio for this link.  Reading dozens and dozens of authors agreeing that first drafts are going to suck finally seemed to get through to my pessimistic "logic" brain.  Hammer and chisel'd a chink in my skull for some light to get through.  I wrote 2200 words today, and if that doesn't sound like much, I can't even remember the last day where I broke 2000...  Even had some lines I liked.  "Every detail was drawn through her senses like needle and thread through flesh."  Nice. (?)
> 
> I wish I had real advice for you, Dragon, but I think I've become a lot more anxious about my writing at 25 than I was 15.  (Mostly, I think, because I was under a lot more illusions about its quality back then.)  I think we need to let go of the "perfect", the "great", and even the "good", and embrace the goddamn _rough_ draft.
> 
> I'm trying very hard to put that into practice with this story.  I'll let you know if the lesson ever sticks.



Yes! Focus on the story not words. That's my biggest thing lately. I tell myself this when I get stuck now. And you know what? This story is turning out to be interesting. I have yet to look at a Thesaurus (did have to fix a few sentences that were awkward). I'm happy with the tone, the pace, the characters. I'm totally entertaining myself because I'm not thinking of pretty words...I'm following my gut and letting my creative voice have its way. The result is something that may or may not attract a trickle of readers. But I'm already proud of it. It's ME.

And in tying this back to the OP, being US is something that takes a long time to figure out. I've been writing all my life and just now in middle age am I mature enough to understand what storytelling is. It's not about the words. It's not about awesome (sorry, FifthView). It's about entertaining people on the other side of those pages. It's about honing our creative voice and tastes that are unlike any other person's.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 12, 2016)

Yes, thank you Fifthview, that makes perfect sense. 

What makes your love story different than the million of other love stories? What makes your love story more awesome, interesting, engaging? So that could be a combo of many things, including setting, magic, obsticles, antagonist... 

I get it. That makes sense.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 12, 2016)

Tricky, i haven't seen GoE. I do not think there is one answer. 300 absolutely failed for a lot of people, but also worked for alot. This likely depends some on whether you went in thinking "history" or "adaptation of graphic novel". The thing about 300 is the real story is Awesome. 

My inclination is that its story that must carry the awesome... But then comes Avatar... Clearly to me, awesome carried story here. The story is tripe, not just unbelievable, but rather overt propaganda and ham-handed cliche... Or, tried and true LOL. There was absoluetly nothing new about the story except the fantastic FX and setting. That was enough. I doubt there is asingle answer over all, might be an answer with 300 vs GoE but having not seen one? Give your thoughts, LOL.


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## Chessie (Dec 12, 2016)

300 had some AWESOME eye candy though.

Ahem.

Carry on!


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## Heliotrope (Dec 12, 2016)

I felt the same about Avatar as you... which goes to prove I guess that true Awesome is all a lot of people care about lol. 

My husband and his super heroes/Transformers obsession is case in point.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 12, 2016)

Oooh, super heroes and transformers... duuuude, uuugh. I like the occasional Bat Man... but the real supers just drive me frigging batty, although I enjoy Watchmen. Even seeing "Marvel" causes a gag reflex these days. I flat out refuse to watch a supers movie, although I did watch a Mutant Turtles with my daughter... but she begged, LOL.



Heliotrope said:


> I felt the same about Avatar as you... which goes to prove I guess that true Awesome is all a lot of people care about lol.
> 
> My husband and his super heroes/Transformers obsession is case in point.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 12, 2016)

Chessie said:


> 300 had some AWESOME eye candy though.
> 
> Ahem.
> 
> Carry on!




I assume you mean the blood and gore. I'm sure that's it.


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## skip.knox (Dec 12, 2016)

And I thought 300 was nothing but empty noise. Downright operatic, in its sets, acting, dialog, all of it. The actual story is so memorable in its own right; Frank Miller, as is his habit, decided that everything needs frosting. Then the movie people decided the frosting needed icing.

In other words, write your book. If it's good, someone will like it, but someone else will think it stinks.


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## skip.knox (Dec 12, 2016)

>Skip writes for that audience.

In my defense -- and I realize I was not attacked! -- I wrote the battle scenes because I had to. I have no idea if I'm any good at it. I'm sort of with FifthView on how I relate to my stories. I get an idea, then I want to see if I can manage to pull it off. It's not because of any deep emotional resonance.

I have this alternate history world, so right off the bat I have these events that have happened. I didn't make them up, though I do play with them. With my WiP, the foundation is the Battle of Adrianopolis in 378AD. Five Roman legions were wiped out by the invading Goths. They even killed the Emperor, then rolled up to Constantinople. But the barbarians couldn't figure out how to besiege a city with 30-foot walls, so after a few days they shrugged and went to loot Greece instead.

Swap goblins for Goths and there you go. Since this was the seminal event for Altearth (it was the same world before; changed after), I figured I ought to tell the story. I should have chosen something less ambitious for my first novel, but then again I'm not sure, as a noob, I would have been able to keep control of *any* story.

Anyway, given the epic scope of the historical event, I was pretty much doomed to write a big battle scene. That turned out to present two interesting challenges. One, how to narrate it coherently--lots of things happening on lots of different fronts--without falling back to an omniscient POV. My guide there was Tolkien narrating the battle at Minas Tirith.

The other challenge, which is related, was how to draw the reader into the battle, to feel the dust and heat and exultation and terror. I did have to work out the mechanics of the battle, but for the most part those details remain off the page. Knowing them was necessary to work out timing and placement of characters on the field, but that was about it. As for awesome-osity, the real work there happens prior to the battle. If I got you to care about the characters, you'll see the battle as awesome. If I didn't, you won't.

Other sources of inspiration when it comes to writing battles--Tolstoy and Thucydides. Polybius is good, too. And sometimes Livy. But especially with Tolkien and Tolstoy, don't just read the battle scene. Read the development of the characters leading up to the battle. That's what makes the scene itself so moving.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 12, 2016)

I found 300 to be... hmm... a semi-entertaining fanciful gore fest? It was different enough that I appreciated it, and I went in with no expectations... I knew it wasn't history, but I had no clue about Frank Miller... I did not pay to see it, so that helps, LOL.


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## Chessie (Dec 12, 2016)

Well, as someone who read those scenes, Skip, I'll say you're good at them. And also yes, your manuscript does call for battle scenes. Do you enjoy writing them though? What I'm getting at is that maybe not all fantasy books require battle scenes but a historical epic such as yours does. That's the audience you're writing for, right? Idk lol.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Dec 12, 2016)

Wow, what a thread. 

I can agree with or at least see the point of everything said so far. This topic is especially meaningful for me, because I have a difficult time writing action scenes in a non-BORING way in the first draft.

My solution is to not try to make the action scenes interesting in the first draft. If I let myself get too caught up in a scene, it will make the completion of the first draft take even longer. I want the feeling of satisfaction that comes with completing a step in the process. It is so difficult for me to complete anything! Realizing this about myself was the first step in doing something about it. So I focus on finishing whatever stage of the process I'm on currently. Reaching a milestone is what motivates me to try to reach the next one. Getting to the end of the first draft more quickly is more important than trying to polish scenes as I go.

For my WIP, I initially wrote 20K words as an outline. It was all "telling." I thought it had the potential for Awesome. I wrote a first draft of a novel based on the outline. I don't remember exactly how many words, but it was somewhere between 50K and 80K. After distancing myself from it and reading it through, I realized it was not Awesome. It was Stupid. Bad.

So I tried making changes to characters, to setting, to plot. I only made it worse, which made me think maybe I was not skilled enough to write the story. I considered giving up. It's not in me to give up writing completely, but maybe I should try a different story. But there was a kernel of the story I'd outlined that desperately wanted to take seed and grow. I'd failed to nurture it properly, and it failed to bear fruit.

I studied my own story. What was working and what wasn't? Why did parts work and others not? What parts of the story were there because they served no other purpose than I thought they would create Awesomeness? Cut. Gone. In my attempt to achieve Awesomeness, I had fallen into the pit of Gimmickry.

After a few more drafts, each running 50K to 100K, I had an 80K draft that I thought might be Awesome. I sent it to some beta readers. They politely told me I was wrong. My protagonist was emotionally constipated, and they didn't care for him.

_Damn._

I did not want to change this character. But the character did not work as a protagonist. So what to do?

My decision was to not use that character as a POV character (or at least not the only one). After some thought, I went with multiple POV characters. Each change of POV is a change of chapter.

I discovered that I'd not been giving these secondary characters their just due. I'd stereotyped some of them, not carefully considered the motivations of others. When I wrote from their POVs, I learned so much about them. Scenes that had been dull before became interesting. In many cases, the events I wrote about were no different than what I'd written about before, but seeing them through the eyes of another character made them feel more important. The new POV character felt events to be more important than had the original protagonist, who hardly cared about anything or anyone, including himself. He'd been going through the motions. He'd been a vehicle for the story, but the story didn't matter. It couldn't be Awesome because he didn't see Awesome. He only saw Despair.

So there's something to be said for choosing the right character(s) to tell the story you want to tell.

With all those added POV characters, my WIP has gone from a 20K outline to an 80K novel that sucked to two 100K books that I feel excited about. The first volume has gone to beta readers (a different group from before) and they are thanking me for letting them read it, which the first group definitely did not do.

It's taken four years to reach this point with the project. At many points along the way, I thought maybe I was not skilled enough as a writer to pull off what I'd attempted. I'm not finished yet, but I now feel like I'm on the downward slope.

I'm telling you all this because you've voiced more in this thread than simply a question of how to make action scenes less BORING. But to come back to that, let me add this: Eight drafts written, and I'm still seeing scenes that could be improved. I tend to write unnecessary detail in action scenes. I'm a firm believer in making multiple passes over a story, each time focusing on only one kind of editing. So after I make changes based on my beta reader feedback, I'll make a pass through the story looking one more time for action scenes with too much BORING detail. I plan to replace BORING sentences that describe action with sentences that show the effects of those actions, or with dialogue about those actions and their effects, or with thoughts/feelings of the POV character about the action.

_A shadowy figure sprang at her, claws slashing at her throat. Her mind froze. Her right arm didn't.

She flinched when the red spray chilled the back of her hand, felt faint and thought she might collapse too as the goblin's eyes lost their focus and his knees buckled. She yanked her hand free of the implement of death, not wanting the touch of that hot steel reminding her of what she'd become.

Only then did her brain register the goblin's cry of alarm. Muffled shouts that echoed it from around the bend ahead told her she couldn't think of herself as a murderer. This was self preservation. She'd have to wipe off the tell-tale blood later, deal with her hatred of that dagger some other time, pull it free now of the dead flesh that still gripped its stained blade. She pictured the hilt as a flower stalk as she plucked it and ran, the shouts of the goblin's friends growing gratifyingly fainter with each stride._

vs

_A goblin jumped out of its hiding place and slashed at her with his claws. He cried out as she stabbed him first. His blood sprayed and he collapsed to the ground, the dagger still stuck in him. Shouts echoed from around the bend in the hallway. Probably more goblins and probably coming soon to investigate. She grabbed the dagger out of the corpse and ran the other way._

Another problem is if you have lots of similar action scenes. Then you have to get more creative with the second and subsequent scenes, to not repeat the first.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 12, 2016)

Repetition is (potentially) something I will face in book 2, and that can be a killer. I call it the Blood Sport Effect, a shout out to Jean Claude! heh heh. Any sport movie with a long season falls into this category, too. It's the tournament conundrum... how do you frame every combat in an interesting way? Only so many can be personal, you can only kick ass or get your ass kicked in so many ways (especially in a tournament situation), and by God, that last fight must be the best, win or lose. Watching how movies deal with repetition can hand out good advice for how to handle them in a novel.



Michael K. Eidson said:


> Wow, what a thread.
> 
> I can agree with or at least see the point of everything said so far. This topic is especially meaningful for me, because I have a difficult time writing action scenes in a non-BORING way in the first draft.
> 
> ...


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## skip.knox (Dec 12, 2016)

> Do you enjoy writing them though?
As much as I enjoy writing any scenes. I find writing to be difficult, in many different ways.

>That's the audience you're writing for, right?
I don't write for an audience. To be more precise, I write first of all for clarity, then for emotion and resonance. Which I guess would be my emotions and what resonates with me. I would not begin to pretend I know how it's going to be received by others. Then my beta readers give me feedback and lots of times they are correct, so I suppose I revise for them (though I'm still in the room). I pretty much specifically do not write for history buffs, nor for fans of battle scenes. I guess I do write for one military reader, though. A general. I write for General Audience.

Leaving now, as I cannot possibly sink lower into the Pond of Pun.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 13, 2016)

What are your favorite scenes to write, DotA?

My favorites are characters arguing, and graphic intimate scenes. I'm not saying I'm especially good at them, but that I enjoy writing them. I love being snarky and sarcastic, especially when people don't see eye to eye on an issue (even better if they don't like each other), and I love to make love scenes uncomfortable and honest (like real life, HA!).

I prefer bloodletting when there is no battle. Quiet, dramatic deaths. My absolute favorite is when characters hurt each other on purpose with words. Like when they're making a point about the other person and display some cruelty in their honesty.


Find the scenes that really make you excited, and try to swap out the things you find dull or difficult for some of the ones you think are really fun and interesting. One of my crit partners told me years ago, "This fight scene is okay, but it might be better as just an argument. That's where you really shine." And I took those words to heart. I have very few physical confrontations, and when I do have them, emotions and life or death play a big part of the scene. I do not do battles, I do not write many characters who even use weapons, in fact. Because as soon as I put a weapon in a character's hand...they start to use it and then my writing becomes like a monotone ring announcer. And I hate that. So, rather than a weapon, I put other things into my characters' hands. Secret messages, a guitar, a child, a cigarette, or part of another character.  Anything to keep them tense and talking, but not stabbing and shooting. Of course, I have some stabbing and shooting too, but it's a last resort for me as a writer, and so it becomes a last resort to my characters.


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## Chessie (Dec 13, 2016)

Caged Maiden said:


> What are your favorite scenes to write, DotA?
> 
> My favorites are characters arguing, and graphic intimate scenes. I'm not saying I'm especially good at them, but that I enjoy writing them. I love being snarky and sarcastic, especially when people don't see eye to eye on an issue (even better if they don't like each other), and I love to make love scenes uncomfortable and honest (like real life, HA!).
> 
> ...



Ohhh, wow. There's so much that could be done with the last part of your post here, Maiden. HAHA. Have you considered writing fantasy erotica? It's a thing, you know.Stabbing and shooting and...LOL!!! Buuut...ahem. Ha. You make a fine point that I agree with 100%. Battles need not happen in order to solve issues with violence and as Malik said upthread, violence works very well at solving problems. But violence can come in many forms. DotA likes knives. So much can be done with that: a dagger up to someone's throat, a stabby here, a slice there, etc. That's up close and personal (and by no means am I advocating violence in today's terrible fallen world). Just saying that there are other ways of doing it besides battles.

For example, just last night I had a brilliant idea come out of the blue. My MC needed to get her point across to someone she was interrogating, so she had her servant put the dude in a headlock. They were all in a carriage, small space, so I got to make it a bit personal and she was very naughty throughout the whole thing. Violence. No battle. So it can be done and you can enjoy writing it, too.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 13, 2016)

Because I write kids books I can almost never resort to physical violence as a way of solving problems. Partly because it's market policy and partly because of my own morals. I want to write books parents and teachers feel good about letting kids read. 

So I can have some fighting, if it is against monsters in self defence, with no blood or gore. But no human to human violence.

I have to get pretty creative at times but there are infinite ways of solving problems that don't require a weapon. 

That's one of the challenges though of writing for kids. Make it high energy and engaging with No violence or blatant romance. (The most that can happen is an innocent first kiss at the end).

*note: I can attest to the fact that maiden could make a killing at fantasy erotica. She writes fantastic romance and her intimate scenes are some of the best I've ever read.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 13, 2016)

Caged Maiden said:


> What are your favorite scenes to write, DotA?
> 
> My favorites are characters arguing, and graphic intimate scenes. I'm not saying I'm especially good at them, but that I enjoy writing them. I love being snarky and sarcastic, especially when people don't see eye to eye on an issue (even better if they don't like each other), and I love to make love scenes uncomfortable and honest (like real life, HA!).
> 
> ...



Hmmm...

I generally like writing dialogue, especially when there's a lot of tension in play. Character A is trying to convince Character B to do something they don't want to, Character X is hiding something from Character Y. Arguments, as you said. Generally, i like writing conflict/tension-filled interactions between characters. Hmm...anything really emotional. Fight scenes have to be very personal for me to enjoy them.  

I love awkward scenes between characters. This can be anything--even a scene where two characters are mad at each other and not speaking to each other... I love developing relationships, which are complicated and difficult and full of tension and conflict. 

This sounds weird, okay, but...I do like torture scenes. They're harrowing and difficult, but I like them. Partly because they're so harrowing. If told from the POV of someone who's watching someone they love tortured--even better. 

Any scene where there is intimacy and emotion, especially if it's awkward and uncomfortable. Believe it or not, a patch-up scene after a battle is really good for this. First aid is weirdly intimate and there can be a ton of emotions going on in the cooldown after a fight. You can use it to build sexual tension, you can use it to reveal the vulnerable side of a character, you can use it to show a softer side to a hard character, you can use it to reveal basically any new side of a character. It's also a good opportunity for dialogue, which can be whatever you want. 

That's what i'm more interested in, really. The buildup to and aftermath of a fight, rather than the fight itself. 

I also enjoy the occasional scene where my character is alone with their thoughts. Having a stormy mess of conflict inside their head, or raging against their circumstances...Especially if they are trying to figure out another character's actions or words. Almost the best kind of argument is a character arguing with herself. 

In a complete turnaround from all of that: I'm a nerdy worldbuilder and I love settings above all else. In every scene i consider the setting. The mood, the lighting, the smells. I've actually had scenes not work for me because the setting wasn't clear in my head. For me, the setting frames a scene, setting the backdrop, and is as much a part of it as the characters. 

Finally. You say you enjoy writing graphic intimate scenes. Now, the general view around me was (and is) that anything sexual in a book was just porn and irrelevant to the story, and that sex scenes could always be left out. As one of my friends put it (paraphrasing because this was forever ago and no way would i remember her exact words), "I mean, if a couple's living together, we're going to assume it's happening. You don't have to show it." And I thought this way for a while but recently i realized this is absolutely NOT the case. There is so much character you can reveal, so many emotions. It can even be an important stage in a character's emotional development. There are so many things you can do with it, so many complicated dynamics of emotion; the amount of potential in a good writer's hands is staggering. Now, my last Top Scribe entry was literally the most intimate thing i've ever written and I'm firmly on the side of being tastefully metaphorical. Stuff that's graphic doesn't appeal to me, never has. But I do have a new appreciation for intimate scenes if done well; lumping them all as just porn is rather insulting.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 13, 2016)

OMG DotA you're so speaking my language. I love torture scenes because of the intensity and intimacy. I love awkward relationships (especially romantic ones). I LOVE having characters who have to accomplish something together even though they don't like each other. all that stuff really gets my imagination going and my fingers soaring over keys. Maybe I can reduce it further. I like close contact between people, rather than movement from a distance, or tactics.

And as to the intimate scenes...I don't think it's porn if the scene has a point other than the sex. And all of mine do. I usually show the meaningful scenes, and then I summarize the subsequent ones if there are any. My favorite I ever wrote was this female mage who was leaving home for safety, and her grandfather hired mercenaries to take her and her brother to a ship. On the first night the character spends alone with her private guard, she's flustered and out of sorts. Separated from her brother and feeling alone. She's so nervous. He tries to set her at ease by being friendly and then she says something really awkward. Don't remember how I worded it, but something like, "Oh, thanks for being nice to me. I was really nervous. I've never been in the company of people who kill other people for money." and that pretty much ends the friendly conversation. HA! He's not upset, but she feels even more awkward. Later, when she's lying in bed, watching him sleep on the floor next to her, she finally gets brave enough to actually look at him. A lot is happening in her head, and she sort of leans over him and she thinks she might just kiss him without waking him...but then his eyes open and she's startled and falls out of bed onto him. And after that, a game begins. He taunts her, teasing her and all in good fun, he backs her up against the wall, asking her awkward questions until she finally admits she only wanted a kiss. He smiles and asks if she still wants it. And she says yes. 

I went full bore after that because it was so beautiful in my mind, so wonderfully horribly awkward, and yet likely. The romp they have, as strangers who don't know each others' last names, was so much fun. And pretty graphic. But the point of it was that they did things that weren't timid. They were patient and kind to each other and gave their inner hearts, knowing they'd part in two days. And I loved it. But how could I get that across without being specific and a bit graphic? The lasting emotion of that scene carried the whole story. If they hadn't had that moment, the story would have lost all meaning (to me). Yeah, that's my favorite one. 

Actually, I have another favorite, too. A young woman is married to a guy who speaks about secrets instead of love after their awkward wedding ceremony. He shows her to her own room, and there is no romantic relationship. They're married for weeks before they eventually connect at all. And when they finally do go to bed together, I pull down all the barriers between them and reduce them to their softest selves. Her husband who would never be caught in public without his shoes polished and a neatly tied cravat becomes unglued. And the humble sheep farmer's daughter shows she's got her own agenda and takes what she wants. Yeah, I like that one, too. 

Yeah, I'm totally stuck on romantic relationships because they offer plenty of opportunity to fight with words and emotions are rawer in those situations.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 13, 2016)

ooh, and one of my favorite scenes ever...this older woman has hired a young man to help with a murder plot (anyways, bear with me), and during the course of their acquaintance, she puts him in a dangerous situation, and she loses control of the situation, and he's totally irate and threatens to leave her in the road to fend for herself. When they escape the situation, and get back to town, he's gone. He doesn't check in, he doesn't collect his letters from her, nothing. So, she has to find him before her partners discover he's abandoned their purpose, because she knows the partners will kill this guy. So, she goes and finds him, and they have an angry conversation. He's drunk and she finds him in a bar, and she breaks his friend's arm and tells him to come meet her outside. They fight in the street, and then she apologizes for using him like a tool and a pawn, and they go have an honest conversation where she reveals her inner conflict and her paranoia and fear. It's just SO fun. After that, the guy has a newfound respect for her and comes back to work. But later in the story, the woman sees something traumatic and the guy saves her life when she's attacked by a nut job. When they get home, she's freaking out and she puts a dagger to her neck and stares in the mirror. He grabs her hand and her waist and throws the dagger away, but she smashes the mirror with his and her fist, and then they're both bleeding and upset. She gets despondent, and he leaves...but he watches her from outside. She leaves the house and sneaks over the neighboring rooftops, and he knows she's going to do a suicide mission, so he follows her to remind her she has a reason to live. 

OMG, I love characters who are troubled and need other characters to talk them off the ledge or to motivate them, or to help them differentiate right from wrong. That stuff really gets me excited about a story.


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## skip.knox (Dec 13, 2016)

It's interesting, DotA, that you like writing torture scenes because those are scenes that also can become mostly about mechanics and layering the AWESOME, rather than being about tone and mood and character. Just like battle scenes.

You might consider approaching a fight scene as another format for a torture scene. Focus on the intimacy of it. I mentioned Tolstoy before. There is a scene that has always remained in my memory (lots of scenes, really) in which Andre is injured. We follow him in a charge. We get the noise and the chaos and the smoke. We feel his weird mix of elation and fear. And then, suddenly, he falls, shot. And then we are lying on our back staring up at the blue sky and white clouds, almost peaceful. It's one of the strongest moments of battle I've encountered.

As another example, I have a general in the big battle and yeah I talk about positioning troops and such, but mostly I have him complain because he feels sidelined by the Emperor. And he has this tic. He doesn't even realize it about himself, but he itches. He blames the heat and idleness. He blames the Emperor and even his own staff, but in truth it's his own inner demons. So he scratches and squirms. And, as the goblins sweep around him because of his own failure to guard the flank, just before one takes off his head, the itching stops. He feels pretty good.

To put it another way, there is the movement of troops, the ebb and flow of the battle, but within that, conditioned by it, are a thousand small stories that can break your heart.


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## FifthView (Dec 13, 2016)

It's very difficult for me to disentangle character from context.  If I have loved any character's journey, growth, and victory (or defeat), I have experienced all those things in the midst of that context.  While I was reading the character's journey, I was reading all those things as well.

One important factor for me:  Characters themselves have difficulty disentangling themselves from context.  This may be experienced by the character in multiple ways, but ultimately this comes down to character reaction to externals.  

When there is Awesome in the story, the characters may see it and react to it and feel as much awe as the reader feels.  My go-to example is Peter Jackson's direction of the LOTR movies, because he was genius when doing this.  The fellowship passes under those giant statues, and they look up in awe.  Gandalf says, "Let me risk a little more light," and suddenly the fellowship (and viewers) are awestruck: "Behold: the great realm and dwarf city of Dwarrowdelf!"   When Mt. Doom explodes, we get a cutaway to the reactions on the faces of those members of the fellowship not _in_ Mt. Doom; and we know what they are thinking.  Jackson does this consistently. He knows it's not just about adding Awesome to try dazzling the audience.  If it's truly awesome, how can the characters not be awestruck?

Of course, a jaded character might not feel awe.  

And awe is subjective to some degree. Usually, there's a sense of newness or oddity, and a character may have grown beyond a sense of awe if something has become familiar.  Characters can also feel awe when confronted by common things that are nonetheless new for them:   Like, maybe, the sensation of a pike being forced through their belly.  Or seeing that happen to a loved one.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 13, 2016)

I love that, Skip. What a clever and utterly human way to portray the character. see, that's the stuff I get excited about. Tics, flaws, mannerisms. Maybe because I'm hypersensitive about those things? I see them when other people might not? And I'm painfully aware of my own. I always attributed it to being bipolar because I always have to be vigilant of what i am doing...for fear of offending people. I've done it so many times, where I'm trying to be friendly and funny, (especially when getting to know people) and I forget folks don't already know my quirks...and then I have to apologize after I blurt something that makes people uncomfortable, or say something that has the opposite meaning of how I intended it. OMG, so I'm super aware of my own mannerisms and quirks..and in turn I think that makes me assign similar things to my characters. I love how you included that as a plot point and a resolution, too.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 13, 2016)

Caged Maiden said:


> OMG DotA you're so speaking my language. I love torture scenes because of the intensity and intimacy. I love awkward relationships (especially romantic ones). I LOVE having characters who have to accomplish something together even though they don't like each other. all that stuff really gets my imagination going and my fingers soaring over keys. Maybe I can reduce it further. I like close contact between people, rather than movement from a distance, or tactics.
> 
> And as to the intimate scenes...I don't think it's porn if the scene has a point other than the sex. And all of mine do. I usually show the meaningful scenes, and then I summarize the subsequent ones if there are any. My favorite I ever wrote was this female mage who was leaving home for safety, and her grandfather hired mercenaries to take her and her brother to a ship. On the first night the character spends alone with her private guard, she's flustered and out of sorts. Separated from her brother and feeling alone. She's so nervous. He tries to set her at ease by being friendly and then she says something really awkward. Don't remember how I worded it, but something like, "Oh, thanks for being nice to me. I was really nervous. I've never been in the company of people who kill other people for money." and that pretty much ends the friendly conversation. HA! He's not upset, but she feels even more awkward. Later, when she's lying in bed, watching him sleep on the floor next to her, she finally gets brave enough to actually look at him. A lot is happening in her head, and she sort of leans over him and she thinks she might just kiss him without waking him...but then his eyes open and she's startled and falls out of bed onto him. And after that, a game begins. He taunts her, teasing her and all in good fun, he backs her up against the wall, asking her awkward questions until she finally admits she only wanted a kiss. He smiles and asks if she still wants it. And she says yes.
> 
> ...



that's good to hear  

And yes, we are on the same page with a lot of things about what excites us in writing. The human side of things, how relationships shift and interact, the interplay of emotions within and between people. It's fascinating, humanity, and lots of my themes and topics I explore reflect my fascination. 

In this story, I have a lot to work with, but I haven't yet figured out how to allow it to emerge fully. I have my MC's painful backstory, of falling in love and then blaming herself for her boyfriend's death. I have all the new people i'm forcing her to interact with and at first she hates them but then she kind of surprises herself in realizing she actually cares about them. I also have her observing the relationships of other characters (often familial, often very broken) and struggling to relate. I think she really does want love and to be loved, but it's just so strange and uncomfortable to her. She's a hard, ruthless young woman who has learned hard lessons about caring about people. She had to hide her vulnerability to survive but it's there and she's afraid of it. 

I think "get to the next plot point" has been smothering all of the above. For me, the emotional connections, the relationships, are always the core. So of course things are falling in on themselves...

I actually rarely include romantic relationships in my stories! I think YA has given me a sour taste in my mouth about them. In my WIP the only romantic thing is my MC's past with the tragically killed boyfriend. But I do enjoy them, so... I love other relationships as much or more, though. Sibling relationships have to be my favorite. In the WIP I laid aside, my MC's are brother and sister and I wrote a scene near the beginning where the sister has just taken a vicious beating for a crime her brother committed and she comes upstairs, bloody, and she's really pissed off at him even though she took his punishment, and insists she's okay but he insists on patching her up so as he's tending to her wounds they're arguing and hurling insults at each other, and the sarcasm is palpable, I swear. Sooo much sarcasm. it's one of my favorite ever scenes. 

You have a lot of favorites, lol  I mean yeah, I'm not fond of graphic sex scenes, i wouldn't like writing them, and I'd only read them if the author seriously knew what they were doing. But hey, to each their own...And I totally understand the fascination with the emotional dynamics between characters of a scene.


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## skip.knox (Dec 13, 2016)

>I see them when other people might not?

There is a difference, an important difference, imo, between noticing and seeing. Actually, we don't really have verbs for this that are sufficiently distinguished. What a writer does is, to notice some tic or mannerism or turn of phrase--which is something anyone can do--then does two things further. Make that three things. First, the writer _remembers_. Most folks notice and then the observation flies by. Second, the writer _finds a place_ for that tic, with a specific character in a specific situation. Third, most of the time anyway, the writer _exaggerates_. Certainly beyond how it manifested in the original observation.

If I had merely said that Lupicinus (that Roman general) scratched his hand, or scratched his neck, that would not be sufficient. It's the repetition, plus the irritation he exhibits, that turns it into something that resonates within the scene (er, yours truly _hopes_ that's the case!). A writer is willing to go to extremes, to go beyond the quotidian (your word for the day!) in order to make it memorable. 

That's what sets you apart, CM. You notice things--about yourself, about others. But you go the writer's mile. You remember. You use. You exaggerate.

You write!


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 13, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> It's interesting, DotA, that you like writing torture scenes because those are scenes that also can become mostly about mechanics and layering the AWESOME, rather than being about tone and mood and character. Just like battle scenes.
> 
> You might consider approaching a fight scene as another format for a torture scene. Focus on the intimacy of it. I mentioned Tolstoy before. There is a scene that has always remained in my memory (lots of scenes, really) in which Andre is injured. We follow him in a charge. We get the noise and the chaos and the smoke. We feel his weird mix of elation and fear. And then, suddenly, he falls, shot. And then we are lying on our back staring up at the blue sky and white clouds, almost peaceful. It's one of the strongest moments of battle I've encountered.
> 
> ...



they can, but they can also be about tone and mood and character, which is how I like to write them. They're more slowed-down than fast-paced but at the same time are very intense. 

And that's basically how I do fight scenes, when I do enjoy them. I really hate a cinematic approach to action. It has to be very personal, focusing on the emotions, the senses, the thoughts shooting through the character's mind. In fact, calling them action scenes is kind of meh because it's the action part that bores me. The action itself is boring. The action as it affects the characters in it? Less boring.


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