# Endgame - Spoilers



## pmmg (Apr 27, 2019)

So its out. I know you saw it.  Whaddya think?


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## Devor (Apr 27, 2019)

The activity stream displays the first line or so of every post, so please use a couple lines of filler text before coming to anything even remotely spoilery.


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## A. E. Lowan (Apr 28, 2019)

I thought it was brilliant. An excellent example of storytelling with only a few flaws. Very well done.


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## pmmg (Apr 29, 2019)

Wow, no takers.

Well, I don't want to go first. I was never really enthralled with the Marvel movies and have a much more critical eye for them. I am aware I am in the minority, and perhaps on much of it, a singular opinion, but I'll just say. A great feat pulling off so many movies and spreading out a story that kept people going for so long. Good casting, good production, and a great effort by marvel and the movie studio. You brought those marvel characters to life, and made them all household names. And you upped the bar for good movie making. So good job. Two thumbs up from me.


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## Futhark (May 9, 2019)

Finally got to see it tonight.  Been a long time coming and the build up has created some pretty high expectations.  Just have to say I am a big fan of the Marvel movies and I think they have done a wonderful job with the casting and tying so many movies together.  Most of them have had pretty good plots and, despite a few fumbles and flaws, they have delivered above average films throughout.

Avengers: Endgame.  Wow.  What an ambitious project.  Personally I think the plot was solid.  It was maybe a little long, as they tried to say goodbye to certain characters with scenes that I felt were too long.  Other than that, no real criticism from me. Marvel Studios wrapped up an era, but left it clear that a new chapter was just starting.  As a stand-alone film I doubt it would have worked, but as the capstone of an epic undertaking in uncharted territory, I think they delivered.


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## Devor (May 9, 2019)

For me Endgame was nothing but an incredible three-hour geek-out fest.  I absolutely loved it, and I'm not at all onboard with the complaints and criticisms I've seen people elsewhere make.

I want to post spoilers, but I'd just be like, "And this part was great. And I loved that part. And that one line. And ohh wow they did this."

There is one thing though.  As the new Far From Home trailer makes clear, it looks like all the snapping and time heisting has opened the way for the multiverse, so the future of the MCU could be in for some convoluted storytelling. Loki's setup for his Disney+ series is a big part of that.  How do you bring that back to fitting with the original timeline?  Will they even try?  Things are going to get very messy from here.

Not everybody realizes, but the Fantastic Four and the X-Men copyrights include the vast majority of Marvel's space properties.  With Marvel getting them back I expect the franchise to kind of branch in two going forward, with Spiderman replacing Iron Man as the lead for the Avengers' activities on Earth, and Captain Marvel taking point with events in outer space. Add in the X-Men, and they're in for a very big future.


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## Futhark (May 9, 2019)

Totally agree *Devor.*  The X-Men film franchise has been a series of near misses and flat out misfires for me, and I can’t wait for Marvel to get their hands on them.  It may be a messy future, but one can only hope they’ve learnt from the mistakes in the comics.  They just have to pay attention to the details.  For example, in Endgame, they retrieve the Tesseract and Loki’s staff, but Cap takes back the stones.  A fan will of course invent their own explanation (Tony’s nanotech rebuilds what is needed when Cap puts it back), but critics will no doubt jump on these sorts of things.

Anyway, I have high hopes.  Adam Warlock was introduced in the end credits of GotG V2.  Kang the Conqueror is a possibility, as well as Maestro, now that time travel has been introduced.  I’d love to see other versions of Spider-man, namely Miles Morales and Miguel O’Hara (Spider-man 2099).  They could even roll in the Defenders from Netflix, as it has been implied that they exist in the MCU.  Fun, fun, fun.


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## Rkcapps (May 10, 2019)

I'm just going to say, I'm not easily pleased, but I'm totally satisfied, and a lot in awe. Marvel weaved together so many movies into one finale movie. Yes, they're definitely headed towards Spiderman, I watched the trailer yesterday.


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## pmmg (May 13, 2019)

Well, I have entered one of those rare periods where I don’t have anything to do. Classes are momentarily done, and the new ones have not started up. Work is slow, and I am able to sit down do some stuff I have been pushing off for a while. And...the new Marvel movie has been out for a while, so I feel I am free to go on an talk about it 

There will be spoilers, don’t read further if you don’t want to know.

I hate to say it, but I really don’t care for the Marvel movies. I think maybe there is a genetic component or something that might leave one predisposed to attraction to one thing and not to others and whatever it is, I seem to have it against the Marvel stuff. This is not unusual, I find don’t tend to agree with the rest of the movie going public on most movies, and I do wish sometimes I could just enjoy them the way others do, but I don’t. Though, I should add, I did have period where I liked all the marvel stuff better than everyone else in my younger comic book days.

For me, all of the marvel movies are good action eye candy, but there is no meaning to any of it. More so, there is nothing in the movies to believe in. Perhaps in a superhero genre, I am looking for things to believe in, and Marvel does not provide it. I think the entirety of the marvel movies can summed up in the symbol of Thor’s new special Thanos killing axe. A weapon that was created that could kill that bastard and it just fizzled on screen cause Thor did not aim for the head (infinity war movie), and was instead another false hope. I think Mrs. Marvel is this again. I am not sure why we rushed out a movie with her if she was adding nothing to the story. I thought, maybe, she was being brought in to be the one that could kill Thanos, else why have her? but no.... I am not even sure what happened to her. It appeared as if Thanos busted an infinity stone on her butt and she was ejected from the universe. Is she dead? I don’t know. I don’t care. I really don’t want her back anyway.

So to start:

What I liked in this movie:

I'll just put as a given that the Marvel movies have production values and good actors and can make one hell of a cinematic event. I even have to say, I am not really disappointed in the stories, but...(more on that later). I think Marvel has raised the bar on what I expect from a quality movie production. Not many movies do that. So...that’s in the given column.

I liked the scene where Thor caught the smaller hammer and said to Cap, “No, I get the big one.” I thought that was a good moment. Showed some characterization, some levity, and I could see him saying that... (Though really, I would have thought he would prefer the smaller one--that is the one that brought him).

I liked the scene where hulk was trying to get the soul stone from the mystic woman and she would not give it up until he said, ‘but Doctor Strange did so’. And at that hearing that her whole attitude changed. That worked for me.

I liked the scene where Thor spoke with his mother and complained about trying to be what everyone wanted, and failing, and she told him we all are not our ideals, and he should just work on being the best Thor. Probably the best message of the movies.

I liked the scene where Thor lamented that when he finally killed Thanos, he was just a big dumb fool standing there with an axe that did not matter. Strong words, right on point.

I liked that Thanos destroyed the stones, thinking that to keep them around just brought temptation. That was thinking beyond the box.

I liked that past Nebula was betrayed by an unknowing future Nebula, and ended up getting tortured again for her information. Just the strange turn of events.

And....I am gonna go on record and say, Nebula was the best character of the series. She is only one that showed any real growth. Was something different at the end than when she started.

I liked a few of the laugh lines, but don’t remember them all now.

Well...those were most of them. I am having trouble recalling more now. Maybe I will be reminded.


 What I did not like:

I did not like fat Thor. Good laugh to see him let himself go initially, but I wished he would have just used some Asgardian magic and shape changed back into powerful Thor. I felt the same way with the Hulk in the last movie. I want to see these guys fight that bad guy, and not be at anything other than at their peak when they do it. Hulk would not make an appearance in the great battle of last movie, so it was not the entire set of heroes against Thanos, and in this they decided to have fun with Thor, rather than unchain him. Smart hulk...meh...I would prefer out of control raging hulk instead.

Did not care about any of the deaths in the movie. Did not care about any in the last movie. When the last one was over, I learned later that people were actually upset. It never occurred to me to be upset. It was a part 1 of 2, and heroes die and come back in comics all the time. I had no belief that any of them would stay gone. In fact, the only one I thought might be permanent, Gomorrah, in fact wandered back in.

I don’t like Spiderman. I think the character with the new Tony Stark suit is just another guy in a power suit and not really spider man.

I do not think either Thanos or Hawkeye completed the challenge to retrieve the stone. Both did not give up what they love. Thanos loved his plan. Hawkeye did not give up Black Widow, he more ran out of options. I am not sure that is what Hawkeye loves anyway. I was not sad to see her go, the scene kind of robbed me of caring.

I saw no use for Mrs. Marvel. I don’t know why we had to have a movie about her rushed out just in time to have her essentially bluster in, and then get ejected out.

I was reminded that Thanos's plan to end poverty was....glaringly not thought out.

When Thanos had his head chopped off early in the movie, I was disappointed. That feeling did leave me for the rest of the movie. I wanted a movie where these guys finally got their act together and took it to Thanos, instead, they all moped around till someone said "Hey, let’s go back in the past." And after that, everything that occurred was a past Thanos, and not the Thanos that had defeated them.

I actually wanted to boo at the screen for several scenes. For instance, the two armies showing up. Thanos's guys floating into the battle and all the little gates opening to bring everyone back. Great for cinema, I guess, but that was the not the story. The conflict is these avenger vs Thanos. Everything else was just screen candy.

I do not think most of the Wakanda warriors would survive the battle, and I do not buy most of their characters.

I did not enjoy Iron Man's ending up with the glove at the end, because it was only trickery, and not an actual pushing down and taking it from him. The avengers needed to show they were up to the challenge, not hoping to get lucky. To me, that had the feel of a Disney movie, where at the end they get us all to cry over a beloved character who gave his life, and then magically he's not really dead.

And...I did not care for Cap handing over the shield to falcon. I don’t think Falcon could replace him. I don’t think Falcon has had the super soldier serum. (Why not Bucky?)

That’s probably enough.


 Over all, I was bored watching this movie. While I have to say it was spectacularly done, I find there is just something missing, and without it, its not reaching the worthy height I would like it too....but then, I am hard to please.

Over all, I think Marvel misses for me because there is nothing to root for and no one to believe in. It does not leave me with any sense that anything has ever been solved, and that things are left in good hands. The only time, I think I had that feeling was in the original two Spiderman movies, and Toby McGuire, which, IMO, remain Marvels best work. Not seen them for years though, so....

One other comment on the never ending tale:

I see that Star Wars has announced three more films. And I am just, Why? Why not just finish the tale while you still have people who don't feel it has been ruined? Marvel may have had 'Endgame' but is it the end? Nope, they got more movies lined up. Gotta see more Black Panther, and Ant Man, and Mrs. Marvel. If you don’t finish the tale, we never get to a place where we can evaluate the whole, and the indefinite nature of it never gets us to its fair and due evaluation. Always we are left with...that’s how it is now, but maybe it will change with new information. I don’t think I really like this trend of always ending with a next one coming. I think there is value in completed stories and in having a proper ending. Endgame is pretty close so, I could choose to stop watching now, but it won’t really stop. Just on to the next villain.

Anyway...those are some of my thoughts.


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## Futhark (May 15, 2019)

pmmg You bring up some very good points.  I’ve always been a Marvel fan and have to say that I have loved the cinematic experience.  The casting has probably impressed me the most, so even when there have been disappointments in particular movies I can always say ‘at least they did this thing or that thing well’.

I agree with you about Spider-man.  He still seems to be a very undeveloped character to me.  His introduction in Civil War was good, especially when he’s fighting Falcon and Bucky.  (Dude, you have a metal arm.  That’s so cool!). But it still kind of left me thinking what on earth a kid from Queens was doing there.  Spider-man Homecoming didn’t really add much either, and I feel like Michael Keaton as the Vulture upstaged him.  Plus, I’m tired of seeing the “dorky” Peter Parker.  Personally I liked the version that Andrew Garfield played.

Another character that Endgame botched is the Hulk.  See, the Hulk’s rage comes from childhood trauma, stuff that Bruce has repressed.  That’s why the rage is endless.  When he first becomes the Hulk, the Hulk is very childlike, but the more time he spends as the Hulk, the more emotional development the Hulk experiences.  Eventually these two personalities merge and Bruce Banner and the Hulk become one person.  But it is not Bruce, and it’s not the Hulk.  It’s a combination; it’s Bruce with his mind, but with anger issues, attitude and impatience.  In the movie they just stuck Bruce’s mind in the Hulk’s body for no other reasons except for comedic relief and as a plot device.

Also, now that you mention that something was missing, I realise I feel the same.  It could be that is was the second half, so there was no real build up, but I’m not sure yet.  Anyway, good post.  Cheers.


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## Rkcapps (May 16, 2019)

I too enjoyed the special effects, but I do wonder what was the point of Mrs Marvel? And it was a bit of a letdown when they just chopped off Thano's head.


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## Futhark (May 16, 2019)

Rkcapps said:


> I too enjoyed the special effects, but I do wonder what was the point of Mrs Marvel? And it was a bit of a letdown when they just chopped off Thano's head.


Just to save Tony and Nebula I think.  As for the head chopping; it didn’t bother me so much.  Getting cut off mid sentence and Thor just going, ‘What?  I went for the head,’  and everyone else standing around with a WTF look.


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## Devor (May 16, 2019)

Devor said:


> The activity stream displays the first line or so of every post, so please use a couple lines of filler text before coming to anything even remotely spoilery.



I apparently need to repost this.  Please keep your spoilers out of the first couple lines of your post.


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## Futhark (May 16, 2019)

Sorry.  Got caught up in the conversation and forgot.


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## FifthView (Jul 31, 2019)

Well the movie finally dropped on Amazon, so I bought it and watched it last night. I pretty much hate going to the theater nowadays; I'm always delayed.

I have this odd development where....I'm getting a little burned out on the MCU?  I've been a Marvel fan since before I was a teenager. I remember wishing/praying in the 80's for an X-men movie. I'd spend lots of time imagining what it would be like. But any superhero movies coming out then were flimsy, heh. It was a constant irritation until I eventually stopped reading the comics and moved on to other things in my life. (My wild 20s, ahem.)

When the MCU movies started coming out, I bought it up. Saw many of the earlier movies at the theater, bought everything on DvD first, then Blu Ray, and now online for streaming from Amazon. (The times, they are a-changin'!)

I do enjoy them still, some more than others. I rented Shazam the other day and loved it! So maybe I'm not 100% burned out on superhero movies. (And, I loved The Boys on Amazon.)  But for some reason, I now sometimes feel "Ho-hum" when watching a MCU movie. Captain Marvel felt like a bit of light entertainment. A time killer I enjoyed but I have about zero interest in rewatching.

So...Endgame? Objectively, it was pretty good. My favorite moment was probably when the portal opened up behind Cap and the hazy figures of Black Panther and the other 2 Wakandans stepped through. That was the moment. What I'd been waiting to see. The return of the once-dead.

I enjoyed the whole movie but....it was extremely slow and extremely rushed, both.  The first half was them coming to grips with things—so, slow—but on the other hand Tony was saved lickety split, and their locating of Thanos happened lickety split, and their flying there and encountering him and killing him were lickety split. Then they were back to the slow.

I suppose the whole thing seemed to plod forward, all the pieces falling into place for the final battle. Even their collection of the stones from the past seemed to have no stakes, for those heists, beyond having a stake in what would happen near the end of the movie. It was rote, plodding, just getting through the steps. I did enjoy the character building, the interactions. I loved seeing the Ancient One again, for instance. Did I need to see Tony talking to his father, Cap seeing the love of his life through a window, Thor seeing his mother again? On one level, these were kinda nice; but on another, it felt formulaic and boring. The interaction at Avengers Tower was cool; but Loki disappearing with the Tesseract was an _inconsequential _development. At first I thought, How's this going to spin/alter what comes next? Aha, but it's only a method for seeing Cap and Tony interacting with significant figures from their past. Blah blah.

And then the final battle was hum-drum. I did like seeing the effort to get the gauntlet across the field (across a gauntlet, heh?) but I think the movie would  have been better if we hadn't suddenly had a massive Good Guy force appear, an assembled army, but only had the main once-dead heroes appear. A more intimate battle than the overhead "armies clashing" sort of battle. The final battle felt like one of those videos from the 1970s, 80s, 90s concerning some great team sport play that has been enshrined in our history. Like watching the U.S. vs Soviet hockey game. You know already how it plays out, who is going to win; it's just a matter of watching it again in case you missed or forgot some of the finer details. All the assembled once-dead players are just moving pieces on the board. All of it rushed, an overhead view.

I dunno. I was expecting to be blown away by Endgame. I was expecting tension and then catharsis. I thought Infinity War was much more tense, much more interesting on so many levels. Maybe I felt this way because I watched Endgame so many months after it first dropped—and I already know from Feige's schedule that various movies and television shows starring those dusted heroes are planned, heh. Well, I had to watch it, but I'm not sure I'll ever watch Endgame again.


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