# Commiserate with me...



## Caged Maiden (Apr 1, 2016)

Hello friends! (I need help organizing my thoughts and strategizing my next writing move)

I've been absent for a few weeks, and have been struggling to write consistently for the last half a year. I wanted to ask some serious questions, and share my experiences. I know many of you know how I got started, know how big my stack of unfinished work is, and have traded with me, chatted with me, or otherwise shared this journey in the past five years. Thanks for that, by the way!

Recently, I had a really stark awakening. It was after that "Serious Writer Voice" article. I realized I'd been taking my work that I loved, and vanilla-ing it all down into something I felt was neat and non-polarizing in its execution, if not in its subject matter. But I was SO WRONG! And now I'm undoing all the damage I caused. But here's the thing...I'm really confused.

And so I'm asking you folks for advice, because I'm not sure what I'm doing anymore. My first three books are totally awful, so I'm not even going to think about them again ever. But I continued a series from there and fell in love with some of the stories. That's my fantasy series, and if I eliminate the first three, there are 5 more of them written, and one that's concept-only, but it's in the middle of the remaining ones. So there are those, and I like them and think they're pretty good story-wise (as in, worth rewriting so the quality is professional). Then, I have a stand alone novel you've all heard me talk about endlessly, similar to Renaissance Venice. The problem I've run into on this one is that it's too long. Like hella long, and I trimmed all I could, but then I noticed I cut "me" out, and eliminated my tone and style, for the sake of brevity. Plus, the story has some issues, but it's not unfixable. The main thing I realized was that readers have a hard time getting their bearing in the story because right from page one, there's a whole lot going on, because the inciting incident happened two years before the story opened. So either I need to learn more about how to tell a revenge tale, or I need to do my other inclination...write a prequel. I know, please stop cringing, I said it, and I'd grab my shirt collars and shake some sense into me too. 

So a prequel...the point of that is that two of the story's MCs (of a cast of 7 MCs in the original story) would be center stage, and everything complicated in the original story, began in the past. So if I go back and write it out, then opening the other story might not be so awful, because there'll be all the history available in bite-sized portions in the prequel. And to be honest, I just haven't found a way to strategize the original novel in a way that any readers really like. I can open here, I can open there, I can make this guy more prominent, or watch her story first, but every way I slice it, the story is complicated and there's no convenient way to ease a reader into it, because I've tried every way I can think of, and I'm just doing so bad I'm ready to give up.

And that brings me to where I am now. I can write. I can craft deep characters and unique scenarios. I can be funny if I don't try too hard. And naturally capture a range of emotions that reflect each character's individuality. But my stories still suck. And I'm not sure what to do about that. I know part of it is that I just read them too much. But part of it is that I'm still searching for my goal. Like, it's easy for me to say, "I'm going to write so the tone of this story is just like The Lies of Locke Lamora, or Swordspoint" (since those stories are very similar in tone to mine). But the problem I'm having is that I was developing my "serious writer voice" because I thought that was what we were supposed to do. And I kept writing and shelving things, and now I'm 14 years into this journey, with a massive collection of written words, but nothing to really show for it.

How do I deal with that? How can I strategize where to go from here? I know some of you are really strategic about your writing, and I feel like a hopeless starving artist right now, unable to just make and implement a plan, tough I plan all the time! Can anyone offer me some counsel? My goal is to finish a couple things, but I keep derailing my own train by not knowing what my goal should be, and I hear how childish that sounds in my own head, but I've done my best and failed to create goals and a linear method for working. It didn't go as planned, so I stopped writing because I couldn't take the next step. To complete the next step I had for myself (rewrite a detailed outline for the novel I'm currently editing), I'm going to have to take time and a lot of working outside my comfort level, to learn how to do the kind of outline I think I need, when in my head, I don't even want to do it or think I need it, and I'm just happy to scribble notes in a notebook and just write the story. 

All the advice says, "Find something that works for you," and I've found a lot of great things that do work for me, but I'm in need of a few more advanced strategies, because I'm having a really hard time taking my second draft manuscripts into what I think looks like a professional product. (I'm having a really hard time in trying to understand whether I've got enough detail to engage an audience, but not so much it's heavy-handed, and the worst part is that when I get feedback from betas, one wants more detail and the other tells me to scrap the detail because it's erroneous.) Now, that's just one example of how I'm confused about my style and tone, and how it affects readers, but the problem is bigger than just that. I'm now so paranoid, I am avoiding writing out of FEAR. I'm afraid of going too far off track, of writing something I think is great, but then it's inconsistent in tone or style to other sections. I'm just plain agitated and anxious anytime I think about writing lately. I'm afraid of hearing another confusing crit. I feel like I've failed at all of this and was a good sport throughout, but now I just need someone rational to help me weed through all the confusing thoughts, and help me figure out what I need to do.

Any takers? I'm trying to do the, "Do YOU love this, Anita?" strategy, but it's not really working because I no longer know what I love. I'm just trying not to fail at this point, and it's definitely not helping me. I feel rather unhealthy when I think about writing.

I'm unsure whether my problem is that I need to turn writing into a recipe I follow that will yield the results I'm hoping for (because I've never believed much in formulaic writing as a definitive tactic to achieve professional quality), or whether I need to just take an extended break and rejuvenate (which I've been doing and keep getting back to the same stress level in shorter periods of time), or whether I just need to cut ties, do my best, and send stuff to someone else to edit, and just get over it. The worst thing is, I can totally write new stuff at any time, but then I do the same things to it, too. This isn't behavior I'm exhibiting over one terribly problematic work, I've developed as a destructive pattern. I'm like a meth-head picking scabs on her face...I can't remember life before I tampered and over-edited everything, reading it dozens of times and changing very little because I felt it was good, but I was just so afraid there might be something bad in there. and so I'd add in a couple little lines for "clarity" and soon, it's bloated and horrible. I worry so much about everything being perfect, I'm creating shambling zombie monstrosities that feel over-manipulated. And all I want is the feeling that I have achieved a level of professionalism, but in reality, I've gone off the deep end. How does one judge whether their writing is professional quality? That's the question I so need to answer, because one can't simply look at other books. Their nuances are too many to provide accurate comparison. 

Help!


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 1, 2016)

Hey folks, I'm back, like less than an hour after feeling like I wanted to throw up from just thinking about writing. I've done a couple things that has made me feel some small amount better. First, I went through the novel I'm currently editing, and deleted all the erroneous files. I saved a first draft, an old critique of that draft that was done on the whole story, and a couple other pertinent crits and drafts. Multiple March drafts? Gone. Down to one, the final one from March, right?

Okay, so just a little file housekeeping lightens my burden because sometimes I look at my multiple saves and feel like I may have inadvertently been working on one and then gotten confused and opened another, to begin editing on that one on accident? Yeah, I'm just better off with one open and working file, and then save that draft if I make major changes. Okay, so YA!, there's one thing that works for me. 

Second, I wanted to illustrate my problems with organizing my thoughts. I realize I probably just sound dumb and lazy, for saying that I don't have much success with outlines. I assure you, I've spent a ton of time trying to make outlines work, but for me, there is a disconnect between how thoughts happen very rapid-fire in my head, and how I then spin them into something that has feelings. I just wanted to illustrate it in the hopes someone else here might have the same problem and be able to share their strategy. I realize this may be part of being bipolar, and my writing certainly is very reliant on my ability to think, so it sort of has a dependency on the bipolar behaving. Here's a few examples of my honest-to-goodness best attempts at outlining:



> She was once a scared girl, who felt abandoned when the old lady who cared for her died. Her life was turned upside down when she had to leave a village where she lived her whole life, raised by a witch, and had to make her own way. She had a horrible life as a young person, and turned to selling drugs because she didn't want to be a prostitute, but needed to work to support herself. That was how she met Strange and got involved with the criminal side of Brazelton. She maybe stepped on Lion's toes, encroaching on his turf, and rather than banish her or deal with her, he brought her on board, because he saw her as more than she was. He liked that she's real and rather cold and unfeeling. She does what needs to be done and is really intelligent. That's why he brought her into his home to work as his spy and undermine the other dons' networks, keeping an eye on their business and handling things the way his brash, hot-headed young men couldn't.


 I mean...there's no need for me to explain why this is problematic, though it was only meant as a sketch to figure out background. I really lack specify, and that kills my outlines.



> Part 4
> The mercenary leaves Liltha with the book, but he has to stop and free Roan from imprisonment.  He’s got a plan to keep the young werewolf from talking to Jarren–a ring he forces Roan to swallow, that prevents telepathy. He leaves Roan to contemplate how he’ll relay the truth to Jarren later, if he dares.
> Part 5
> Leomere reveals the cause for his anxiety–a statue that may be a living dragon, frozen in time. He tells a tale about an old temple that once housed four dragon sentinels. He believes three of the sentinels are a trio of statues he’s seen, and the fourth, is the famous fire dragon, Tiraconis, who hasn’t been seen in a millennium.
> He knows where one of the statues is, and he gives it to Jarren. The other two he suspects are in a tomb in Mist. He says he’ll help Jarren find them.


 Yeah, heres another gem. What rubbish. I just can't be more detailed in an outline for some reason. If I try to get more detailed, I end up writing in lines of dialogue or specifics about the character's feelings. This is really tough for me, and I struggle with it constantly. I can write, but I cannot summarize. I can't outline, but I can jot down notes. In fact, my notebooks are full of great little brainstorms and awesome ideas, and I can use the really effectively...all until i try to turn it into an outline. 

Problem is, I make this kind of shitty outline, and then I end up staring at it and not knowing what it even means. I mean...why would I even bother to write any of these details down? They're so basic and surface-deep, I can remember all that. But if I try to get a comprehensive outline going on, it breaks down into just writing...weird.

Okay, so this is super embarrassing, but there it is. And no matter how many times I really attempt to write a great outline, it comes out the same. Either all or nothing. Frustrating.


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## Velka (Apr 1, 2016)

Hi CM,

I think crippling self-doubt is something many writers suffer from. You have lots of questions and I don't really have any answers. I do have two pieces of advice though, take from them what you will:

1. Read Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott. Part memoir, part writing advice, part I don't know what, but she does go a lot into the self-destructive doubt and crippling imposter syndrome that being a writer can invoke. Some of it is dross, but there's nuggets in there that keep me coming back to it whenever I'm in a creative confidence tail-spin.

2. One of the recurring themes that I picked up on is your fear if other people will like what you wrote. You've been trying so hard, for so long, to shape your art into something that everyone will enjoy and I'm getting the impression that a lot of your writing is now being done under that impossible shadow. 

You're wondering what to do about your series, but personally, I don't think you're in the right frame of mind to be tackling those really big questions right now. You need to get your head straight first and get back to basics. 

It sounds like your voice has been lost in the cacophony of crits and betas and opinions. It happened to me and, like you, it kinda broke my vision and confidence in what I wanted to create. One big help, aside from taking some time off from writing altogether, was writing purely for myself without the premise of sharing it with others. Freeing myself from the looming spectre of "what other people will think" reminded me of why I want to write in the first place.

So, write something for yourself. Purely for yourself. Swear an oath that you will never show it to another living soul and write a scene, or a short story that is only something you, and you alone, really want to read. Give yourself permission to include info dumps a mile high, purple prose so vibrant that it makes your teeth hurt, paragraphs of description, or none at all - anything that *you* love about the craft. Then do it over and over again until writing is something that is enjoyable, comfortable, and rewarding. Voice and tone will settle and even out once you stop hammering it with criticism and doubt.

Think about master painters and chefs, they create their vision and those who appreciate it do, and those who think it uses too much purple or salt be damned.

Edit: I was writing this when you posted your follow up. When it comes to outlining I am in the same leaky boat. I'm slowly reforming myself from being a 'pantser' but it's hard and messy and I don't know what I'm doing either.


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## Heliotrope (Apr 1, 2016)

Velka said:


> Hi CM,
> 
> 
> It sounds like your voice has been lost in the cacophony of crits and betas and opinions. It happened to me and, like you, it kinda broke my vision and confidence in what I wanted to create. One big help, aside from taking some time off from writing altogether, was writing purely for myself without the premise of sharing it with others. Freeing myself from the looming spectre of "what other people will think" reminded me of why I want to write in the first place.
> ...



I can only respond as a fellow amateur, but I agree with Velka 100%. 

Not everyone is going to like your stuff. I LOVED Velka's Top Scribe challenge story. Loved it. I would have rated it a 25 for sure. ThinkerX did not share my enthusiasm. 

For myself, I had to do what Velka just suggested. I write for myself. I write the story that I feel compelled to write. I write it the way it forms in my head without thinking about the rules. 

I've turned renegade. 

I've never like rules at the best of times, and when I join a forum like this that seems to be heavily dictated by rules it makes my rebel nature absolutely insane. 

I like outlines. I do. For long pieces I need to know where I"m going and how I'm going to get there. But it is boring as shit. 

I love writing shorts because I just free write. I just let my imagination go nuts. So that is what I'm doing right now. That is what makes me happy. I've stopped trying to write for anyone else. 

Oddly enough, I'm happy with writing again  I love it again. I love telling MY stories, MY way. And if other people like them all the better. If they don't, who cares. I wasn't writing for them anyways. 

Example, my short I'm working on right now for the Top Scribe 2 challenge I LOVE. But I already know ThinkerX will hate it. I have broken every single rule. I start with description. Not a hook to be found. I start with exposition and back story for 800 words! lol. But it is my story, and I'm telling it the way I feel in my gut it needs to be told. I'm not trying to win challenges. I'm trying to tell good stories. 

*The Fig Boy Who Flew Away*

_The Piazza Rusticucci was not one of Rome’s most prestigious neighborhoods. A short walk from the Vatican, the nondescript square was part of a maze of streets and densely packed shops and houses that ran west from where the Ponte Sant’Angelo crossed the River Tiber. A trough for livestock stood at its center, next to a fountain, while on its east side was a modest church with a tiny belfry. In the year of our Lord 1510 this humble church, Santa Caterina delle Cavallerotte was too new to be important. It housed none of the bones of saints, shards from the True Cross, or strips of the burial shroud of Christ that each year brought thousands of pilgrims to Rome from all over Christendom. However, behind this church, in a narrow street crisscrossed above by a vast network of drying laundry, there could be found the workshop of one of the most sought-after artists in Italy: a flat-nosed, shabbily dressed, ill-tempered sculpture from Florence, and above this workshop the immaculate home of a brick cutter, Duccio Benedetti and his pious Spanish wife, Antonia.
_

See? 

But who cares? I like it. I think this is the right way to start my story. 

Write your story your way.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Apr 1, 2016)

I'll remind you of a conversation we once had about this very topic.... 

I don't recall who said this, but I think it's true:  





> Your best writing comes when you're on the edge of embarrassing yourself.



When we undertake creative endeavors we must learn to let go of inhibition. There's a genuine quality inherent in work like that, but many of us are learning to get to this point. 

Think of a famous actor. I'm not talking about the pretty people who star in movies solely based on looks. I'm talking about the truly talented actors.   

Do you think that ability came naturally or easily? Don't you think it took a lot of hard work to become someone else entirely when others are watching and cameras are rolling? An actor must break free of all inhibition. They must behave as if no audience is watching, knowing full well people are watching. It's no different with a painter, a sculptor, or singer, or a writer.   

Maybe you should stop worrying about who you should be & just be you. The real you. The you that sings in the shower when nobody is home. I KNOW you have genuine life experiences others would find interesting. We've talked about them. Make characters that convey who and what you are, what your life is all about, what you feel. 

Stories, after all, are windows to other lives. Put the natural, genuine you on the page.


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## Incanus (Apr 1, 2016)

I second (or would that be third or fourth by now?) Velka’s thoughts.

I’m thinking you need to take a break from working on the backlog of novels.  But, in a way, it is not the novels themselves, but the approach and attitude toward them that you need a break from.  However long ago any one of them may have been first penned, you might still be too close or attached to them, in one way or another.

I thought of one little thing that could help shake things up for you a little, or just provide a slightly different perspective:  pick up a couple of short story anthologies or compilations (short stories by different authors) and read them cover to cover.  I often get inspired by seeing short examples of a wide variety of writing styles and stories, all taken in over a short period.  Sometimes a fresh little idea that someone has done, or even a cool little phrase, gets me all excited about my own stuff again.  Of course, you’ll see a bunch of stuff you don’t care for as well, but that can be inspiring in a different direction (like—I should be able to do something at least this good, right?).

Otherwise, I can only commiserate a bit.  I write with feeling of the Sword of Damocles hanging over me.  I know—KNOW—my characters are thin shadows.  I’ve yet to develop a character that readers relate to, or sufficiently understand.  The way I’m going, I may never develop this skill.  But I’m trying.  I have to.  As you know, I’m nearing the end of my first draft of my first novel.  Right now, it’s all plot and ideas.  There’s only a wisp of character stuff, and not much depth at this point.  I have a great deal of trepidation about the upcoming revision (in fact, I’m kind of terrified).  This revision will make or break the story, in my view.  My first draft contains only the kinds of things I’m already half-way decent at.  The revision is where I get to find out whether or not I can break new ground with my characters.  I see my whole writing world as hinging on this revision.

Even with all the great help and advice (no small amount of it from you!), it will ultimately be up to me to make this work.

Anyway, that’s all I have for now.  Hang in there!  And don’t forget to acknowledge your strengths (which you most certainly have), as well as addressing your weaknesses.


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## Chessie (Apr 1, 2016)

Anita, I'm with  you in heart! All of us have our weaknesses and strengths in writing. Your strength is persistence and a real willingness to learn/improve. You write very well. But your weakness is tinkering (just as mine is overloading on projects). The important thing is that you recognize what that weakness is and work on improving from there.

None of us can tell you what to do with your writing career, but we can help steer your thoughts in a helpful direction. Here's my suggestions:

1) Please consider reading these books:

-The Pursuit of Perfection, Kathryn Rusch
-Writing Into The Dark, Dean Wesley Smith

If you want to learn how to stop tinkering and tormenting yourself with over editing, then you're better off applying that to a new project which leads me to...

2) Start a new project. Make it a small one, short story or novelette, something short that you can cycle back---> edit for typos or mistakes BUT NOT PROSE, and one that is small enough to edit in 1-2 passes.

3) Do a novella collection with me. PM me on this one.

I sincerely think you'd benefit into at least looking into going Indie. It's a lot of work, yes, but a career writing fiction is worth the blood, sweat, and tears. Your work needs to be out in the world in some sort of fashion. Start with small goals and work your way up. It might be time to take the next step.


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## ThinkerX (Apr 1, 2016)

Caged, did you catch my review of your 'Top Scribe' entry?  I made a couple of comments there that pertain to this.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 1, 2016)

HA! Thinker, no, I came here today to share what weighed on my mind, and to be honest, I haven't really been in the writing mood for weeks, so I've sort of been absent. I'll have a look at it. Not that I edited a thing in that story...HA! 

So here's the deal with new projects... When we tell people to get some distance, we do so for a few reasons, one bing that we believe they'll be so in love with their work that they'll be unable or unwilling to change things, which isn't me at all, and if anything, I have the exact opposite problem--anytime anyone suggests something, I feel like I should do that instead of my original ideas, because don't all my ideas suck anyways? Yes, sometimes, they're terrible, but sometimes I change things because I just trust other people more than I do myself. The second reason we tell people to take some space from their past work is to give them a clean slate, so they aren't working with old research, bound by rules set down at some previous point, or otherwise stuck in the past and therefore looking backward rather than forward. Now, I'm not trying to look backwards, but I concede there is a certain amount of "still need this event to happen" that can become difficult. 

So let's say I start a completely new project. I have about 5 good ideas right now, that I've wanted to write for a while, and some of them have outlines or exploratory first chapters written. But the problem is, I still feel the need to do this thing I've been doing. I don't know how to turn it off anymore. I'll kill myself over writing the most basic and useless outline, hitting on three really big things to happen, but leaving the minutia unsaid, those things that are most important to a story, and then I'll pants a few chapters at a time, each time, reading what came before, so I'm overly-familiar with the material until I feel numb reading it. 

That's the problem. I can't feel anything about my writing anymore. All I have left is the ability to objectively identify what things are. As in, I can call stuff what it is, I can intentionally make changes, like swap out a paragraph of erroneous snippety description for a pertinent character lens-style deeper take on the scene, still in a paragraph, but I can't identify if that's what the story needs, or whether it even has the right feeling.

Let me illustrate it on my opening, please, because I've never heard of anyone else having this problem as bad as I have it.



> The faint green glow surrounding Daveed, the man across the table from Raisa, was an anomaly she couldn’t explain, a peculiarity often attributed to eccentric _wise women_–just a nice way of saying _witch_. While Raisa didn’t consider the brief and unannounced appearances of the oddity a skill, any more than drunkenness was a skill learned by imbibing, it had its merits. Past experience taught her that a person’s aura flickered like a candle near a window when they were deceitful, and Daveed’s had flickered twice in the last breath he sucked between sneering lips. He checked but didn’t raise. Not yet, but he would.
> 
> Raisa picked up her cards as play passed from quiet, smug Daveed to his polar opposite, the unreserved socialite of Brazelton’s criminal underbelly, Andrew Strange.
> 
> ...



As far as intentions go, every single item in here was put in to do a specific job. I've read this opening few paragraphs like 50 times literally, and I like it just as it is, but no one's going to agree this is an engaging opening. One person will say to cut the sentence with the word "witch" because it's erroneous. Another would say I should make it clearer she's able to see auras and that's unusual, because a reader will want to know that up front. I'm sure some folks will want more description of the room (this is all I give, believe it or not, until much later in the chapter). I just find it so hard to cover all bases, that it makes me feel crazy. I feel like I simply can't find the best place to start a story...ANY story. Or the right words to open with. Or the right little jabs to take at the reader to get him to react. But the thing is, if I've done my best, hit all the points I wanted to make, and did everything I could to make sure that every sentence is tight and relevant, and everything said has a bearing on the story and character...what more can I do? Is it my voice? Is it just that I made the wrong choice of where to open? What would a professional editor say? that I've begun too early or late? Or that I've developed a habit for bland language by over-editing? Is that fixable? OMG it just feels so daunting. I've been trying so hard for the past three years to up my game until I'm publish-worthy, and I just feel like I've gotten nowhere, followed the rainbow around the world, and started back where I was, but now tired and wet to boot!

I'd gladly start a new project, but I just need to know what I'm supposed to do differently this time. What's the goal, to write a simpler story? To just limit the amount of times I read the material? To outline really well? I will happily do anything to break this cycle, but I need to clearly understand the goals in order to fight my natural inclination that i've developed over several years of conditioning myself to edit without mercy.


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## Chessie (Apr 1, 2016)

If you're facing a lack of passion for your writing, then why not try pantsing something? Sometimes I believe that the reason we get so caught up in outlining to the details is because we're afraid of going into the story blind to some degree. We're not sure how to trust our creative voice or are even sure what it is. We get so caught up in what we _should be writing or how we should be saying it because someone told us to do it that way_. We begin to lose faith in ourselves and in our work. I hit a wall of boredom and disappointment over my writing when I outlined--so I stopped.  It works for some, and not for others. If you've tried it one way, why not try it another? Struggling is part of the process, my friend. There's no way out of it. You're experiencing growing pains that will ultimately lead you to a place of growth in your craft. 

Another quick thing since you mentioned not being able to write...have you tried word sprints? Set the timer for 5 minutes and try to write as fast as you can. Don't worry about editing or which words sound better, etc. Sprints are really useful in helping writers shut down critical voice when writing and improves word count. If you maybe do 2 sprints a day for a week and no other writing, it'll add up. Something is beter than nothing. 

And as far as your goals are for a new story, how about just writing from start to finish? Enjoy what you're writing? Don't let anyone else look at it. Connect with your love for the craft because if that's missing then why do this anyway?


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## ThinkerX (Apr 1, 2016)

Caged, you might want to see how other peoples openings fared on this site:

Flogging the Quill

This is his recommended first page checklist - though there are exceptions:



> A First-page Checklist
> 
> •It begins engaging the reader with the character
> •Something is happening. On a first page, this does NOT include a character musing about whatever.
> ...





> Caveat: a strong first-person voice with the right content can raise powerful story questions and create page turns without doing all of the above. A recent submission worked wonderfully well and didn't deal with five of the things in the checklist.



I've had two of my openings judged on that site.  The first fared fairly well, the second flopped badly enough to warrant a rewrite. 

Anymore, this is how I approach not just the books opening, but most individual chapters.

The MC needs to have a goal - which can change.
The MC needs to be faced with a obstacle. 
A confrontation, evasion, or discovery is needed.
A mini-resolution is needed.
Said resolution should also hint at a future or new problem.


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## Velka (Apr 1, 2016)

> One person will say to cut ....





> Another would say I should ....





> I'm sure some folks will want ....





> What would a professional editor say?





> I'd gladly start a new project, but I just need to know what I'm supposed to do differently this time... but I need to clearly understand the goals in order to fight my natural inclination that i've developed over several years of conditioning myself to edit without mercy.



What do you need to do differently?

Get all these damn voices out of your head. Write until you can read your work and edit it with your own thoughts, opinions, and ideas instead of seeing it through the empty eye sockets of all these imagined ghosts of crits past, present, and future. No wonder you feel like you're spinning in circles and can't find your voice, your mind is cluttered with all of these negative ones.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 1, 2016)

Yeah, Velka, I hear you. I know there are a bunch of fear voices in my head, and it isn't that I don't see it, but the problem is, I'm striving to be "professional" and so my aim is to write "like professionals" not like myself. So yeah, on the one hand, I can write like myself all day long. I can churn out a dozen novels and a hundred shorts (because I have, though it took twelve years), but I can't understand what I'm missing. Why does my work not look and feel like a published authors'? Is it as good? What makes it good enough? At what point do you know you're doing fine? If betas still have major gripes about a story, how can I overcome differing opinions from betas when they all sound valid to me? How can I tell what to change and what to keep? 

So that's the crux of my problem. I SO hear you, and I know what I'm doing to myself, but on the other hand, I've just "written like me" for a decade, and I've moved past that point of only being bent on self-gratification in a way, and want to now pursue those habits that will push me more into a professional arena, but the HOW TO of it escapes me, tough I've spent a considerable amount of energy on the quest for perfection. Basically, I've done two major overhauls to a book, one time cutting, and the next pass strengthening and stylizing, and after two years of editing that work, it's just as awful today as when I started. I'm just not sure what's going wrong here. And I WISH so much I could figure it out, because I can't waste any more time on this. I need to fish or cut bait.

Thanks for reminding me the internal voices are fears voiced by invisible critics. Yeah, I can turn that off for a time and just write, but then I always eventually come back to the point of knowing something isn't perfect, and the voices chime in again!


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 1, 2016)

OMG YES!!! I DO need to just write something for me. But the thing is, I have--and I have several stories I'd put into that category. False Lights, The Diablarist, A Winter to Remember, A Meal in the Maelstrom, those are all stories I wouldn't change even if everyone hated them. Because I love them, and they are what they are--my interpretations of prompts and fitted within the requirements of a challenge. The problem is, if standing back and looking at them, are any good enough to be published? Or even represent me or my style on Amazon or in an anthology?

At first, Chesterama, I felt like I HAVE done word sprints, Nano several times a year, brainstorm sessions for new stories, all kinds of exploratory writing (or maybe talking to myself...if that doesn't sound too crazy to admit), and I'm a born panther, which was why I gave so much effort to learning how to outline. I panted a dozen novels and I liked them, but they got too tricky for me, getting off track and over-complicated in some ways.

So anyways (because now I'm not sure whose question I'm answering anymore because I'm so scatterbrained by thinking about this mess), my current project was to rewrite a story I wrote in 2008. It's a full rewrite, with me just keeping the plot and characters and a few scenes, and the majority being created new. I felt this was a good project because if anything, I want to simplify the plot, not complicate it, and it'll give me a book I've had distance from, but am already passionate about. Sometimes it's harder for me to come up with a completely new idea if I'm working on technique, because I tend to be like a force of chaos. One day I'm jotting down character names and deciding what the setting is based on, and the next, I'm three chapters into a story I never planned. It just goes fast and sometimes horribly wrong, and so writing something new isn't a great way for me to flex my planning and professional muscles. That's the main reason I selected an old novel in need of a rewrite. I loved what I had, but he major problem was that the movie playing in my head as I read the book was thoroughly enjoyable, but the movie playing in the reader's head while he read the book was disjointed and jumpy, and felt more like a Public Service Announcement-style documentary from like the 50s. It grated in a way I couldn't feel because it was my story and I knew what I meant. To the reader, it came off as melodramatic, and then confusing, and then meandering, and wash and repeat. So it needs a rewrite, and I know now my skills are so much stronger.  But...

that brings me to the current situation, where I was writing, going along well enough, and actually really liking what I was doing...and then it happened! I came to a part where I fell a little off track. Do I put this in and increase tension? I dunno, does it increase tension? Maybe it just stalls? Maybe it's just erroneous and will feel that way. It barely affects the MC, except to show her reaction to the thing and how that affects her person in a larger way. Hm...let me think about this for a couple days. And then I spent three days playing Assassin's Creed Brotherhood, and not writing anything.

Any advice? My fear is that I feel I should cut it, but then if I send it to a beta and they read the chapter with the section in, they'll say to cut it, but if they read the chapter with the section already cut, they'll say there's not enough tension. It's a perpetual catch-22 and I'm just so confused. I want to know the answers, but I can't clearly discern which is better. So it isn't that I'm not writing for me, because I'm fine with the story either way. But is that then the problem? Must we work to write until there's a clear indicator a story has topped out on its potential? How in the world can we figure out that point? HA!


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## Chessie (Apr 1, 2016)

You need to stop cutting. Just stop it. Only edit typos and continuity errors in the first pass of your work. Allow the creative voice inside of you write those books. When they're done, then let readers see them. 

There's always going to be that place in a story where we all get stuck, outline or no outline. It's part of the creative process. I don't know any writers that don't have bad days. Hell, I'm running on a wickedly close deadline right now and writing is the last thing I want to do! But that's part of creating: the good days, the shitty days, the days when words flow and the days when all of it sounds like a 3rd grader wrote that prose. The life of a writer is far from effing glamorous. But it's so, so worth it to create. Just keep at it. Write daily. I mean it. Even if you're writing 300 words a day you're still in the process.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 1, 2016)

@ ThinkerX Okay...so here's the deal with the checklist. I FEEL like I hit those. So now that I feel I've done that, is it "good"? HA! This is the question that is killing me. 

_-Begins with character: Raisa sees auras at the card table and it's weird, but helps her cheat._
_-Something is happening: a card game, so something, but not "action"_
_-The character desires something: I don't name it yet, but I show she has a desire--to make a deal with Strange_
_-The character does something: The only thing she does is decide how to play her cards. She's trying to win, after all._
_-There’s enough of a setting to orient the reader as to where things are happening: This is my thing to do sparingly. _
_-It happens in the NOW of the story: yep, this is the inciting incident of the whole book, a card game that goes wrong._
_-Backstory? What backstory? We’re in the NOW of the story: I threw in a couple little hints about backstory in the setting details, just to help the reader orient better in Raisa's head. I want a reader to know that they're in the home she shares with a crime boss, and he's her benefactor, and that she's getting tired of the arrangement and being a secondary consideration._
_-Set-up? What set-up? We’re in the NOW of the story: Don't think I have any set-up,but some follows in a little bit, when she postures with Strange to actually seal their deal._
_-What happens raises a story question: I never know if I accomplish this one, but I hope the reader (after this first page) will wonder what Raisa wants from Strange, wonder how she's going to fare in the card game, and lastly, consider whether seeing auras is normal or not. 


_Okay, so again, it's not like I'm just throwing words out there and not caring whether they're any good. I try to hit all the major points. I can pass the checklist, but does that mean it's any good? Because I feel like what continually happens is that I've checked off the list, but then everyone still hates whatever I've got. I do so much better with shorts than I do with novels. I'm not sure why that is, but it's sort of jarring how well people receive some of my shorts, and then sigh when it comes to giving feedback on a novel. Like...how can I write great short stories but then botch every novel so gloriously? HA! 

Yeah, I appreciate all these writer aids, and am really a fan of Immerse or Die, but I just find that the "guidelines" are so easy to hit, when in reality execution is everything. And I have some major concerns that my execution is irreparably damaged by my self-loathing and anxiety. I used to just write a ton, but lately, I get sort of panicky even thinking about writing. It's like a shock collar for me now. I don't like the feel of having it on because I know it'll make me feel bad at some point in the near future.

I don't want anyone to feel like I'm discounting any suggestion, because I'm absolutely not, I'm just struggling to figure out what I haven't tried, looking in vain for any sort of solution to a persistent problem that probably isn't typical? Who knows. Anyways. Thank you guys all for your support. I know I've written these kinds of posts before, and all I can say is that it means a lot to me that you're on this journey with me. Some of you I know personally, and some of you I don't, but it really helps me to hear your coping strategies. I feel so alone in this thing sometimes, like I'm just failing all alone and no one cares, but I bet we've all felt that way now and again. Thanks, scribes!


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 1, 2016)

Yeah, I wrote daily for five years, and a few times a week for the ten before that. I have writing down. But the thing is, I don't feel like what I'm writing is as good as it needs to be. I haven't gotten many great responses form folks, and those all came from short stories. So, I can write, I can churn out words and finish first drafts. I can even do a thorough editing pass and finish second drafts. But the problem with those are that I always seem to miss big plot things, so when I send those out to critters, I get questions back that advise me to change huge sections, either because the material wasn't interesting enough, or because I overlooked some item of consistency/ development, plausibility, and with it left alone, the whole story loses credibility.

And that's where I've been stuck for a number of years. I'm honestly tired of writing every day to not make progress, so that's why I've taken some extended breaks from writing. Not because i don't like it, but because the work I'm doing is not seeming to actually improve anything. How can you tell your work is good?


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## ThinkerX (Apr 1, 2016)

For what little it might be worth, my take on your piece:



> The faint green glow surrounding Daveed, the man across the table from Raisa, was an anomaly she couldn’t explain, a peculiarity often attributed to eccentric wise women—just a nice way of saying witch. While Raisa didn’t consider the brief and unannounced appearances of the oddity a skill, any more than drunkenness was a skill learned by imbibing, it had its merits. Past experience taught her that a person’s aura flickered like a candle near a window when they were deceitful, and Daveed’s had flickered twice in the last breath he sucked between sneering lips. He checked but didn’t raise. Not yet, but he would.
> 
> Raisa picked up her cards as play passed from quiet, smug Daveed to his polar opposite, the unreserved socialite of Brazelton’s criminal underbelly, Andrew Strange.
> 
> ...



First, you started in the wrong place.  You said this card game sets the whole tale in motion.  So THAT is your opening line:

'Raisa flicked a card onto the table.'

Next, something about this 'Daveed' captures her attention.  You mentioned a green aura.  How does that make Raisa feel?  Does she suspect cheating?  Is she concerned about loosing her stake?  Does she start sweating beneath the makeup?  You could probably address all this in three or four sentences instead of paragraphs.  Point to drive home: Something weird has Raisa concerned.  

Then the next hand.  This is where you include a bit of the ambience, and very short descriptions of Daveed and the other players.  Again, just a few sentences, not paragraphs.

You could probably trim this piece by close to half and make it better in the process.


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## skip.knox (Apr 1, 2016)

Caged Maiden, my heart goes out to you. If it's any consolation, you surely do know how to write, because you made me feel your pain in a serious way.

I don't have any recommendations. I have a notion, though. Find an editor. Just one. Just because you shouldn't listen to all those other voices (and I agree that you ought not), doesn't mean you shouldn't listen to *anyone*. Or only to yourself, which you've already said you have tried. It will be expensive. Doubly so because the odds of choosing the right editor the first time are low (I've hired two and neither were worth the electrons they were imprinted on).  But my notion is that if you can find a truly professional editor, then that one voice can guide you to improvement. Not to every improvement, mind you, but at least enough to where you feel you have your feet under you again. Just one external, objective voice.

Beyond that I'm not going to go. I wish I could say something that would somehow magically (!) make you feel better, but I can't. Just know that there are other writers out here who are in the same fix, or were in it, or will be in it. We give you a group hug.

Oh, and outlining? It's worse than having that kid brother who won't leave you alone but who only embarrasses you. And I have the *exact* same feeling of objective emptiness. Great outlines; never use them; and when I try, I only go sideways anyway. But neither can I abandon them. What I'm working on now is this: instead of the outline being about *what* happens, I am trying to note *why* it happens. More specifically, the "what" part is the first outline draft. Because I need to get the sequence down. After than, though, I'm working on writing what my characters want (including the antagonists), why they want it, how they feel if they don't get it, and so on. It's probably going to be as useless as the rest, but it gives me the illusion of progress. 

*more awkward hugs*


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 2, 2016)

Thanks, ThinkerX, I really appreciate that you want to help. Like I said, this is sort of what's causing my problem. You know, I actually didn't open the story here at all, and am only adding this chapter to the rewrite because the book has two inciting incidents, one being the original one, where the MC gets accused of being able to open a magical door, and is kidnapped. And the other one was before the book opened, when she met a bard who beat her in a card game, and later, he's the one who rescues her from her kidnapper. 

I just want to add that while I hear you, and I'm not trying to argue anything, I feel like my opening as it stands highlights all the right things (for me and my intentions). The card game is less important than the ability to see auras. Some of this confusion between writer goals and execution questions comes from my ability to explain a scene's goals, I understand, and I have found it's impossible to be clear. Anyways, so she does end up sweating, but first she's displeased with the house and her benefactor (to me, that's important. And anyways, even if I showed her really nervous right in the first paragraph, arguably, no reader would care because they don't know her or connect with her. Just because I showed her sweating and anxious in the first paragraph doesn't mean anyone would care more about that than why she's upset with her benefactor for vetoing her on the flowers...which I actually like). So right after this hand, where she chooses not to call Daveed's bluff, but instead folds and cuts a deal with a friend, negotiating for something she really wants, something that might even set her free from her crime boss. So that's how I'm trying to enter a little danger into this scene. The actual inciting incident of the scene is at the end, where the bard beats her badly and she leaves the table, broke and shamed, and feeling threatened. Now, again, I know my explanations are horrible and i'm about the worst summarizer in the world, but the thing I always wonder is...can I get a proper opinion from people who don't read beyond the opening? Because I'm feeling very much like I get crits on openings over and over, and everyone hates every rendition I can provide (okay, that's an exaggeration, I'd call it more like 70% don't like and 30% do like, but in those 40%, some are readers and not writers). I hope this illustrates my confusion. Honestly, as embarrassing as it is to put myself out there to you all, and expose what an idiot I feel like, I hope this can help someone else, too.

So anyways, the thing is, let's say I rewrote it following your suggestions...what happens when I get three more opinions that say That's the wrong way to open? You have to understand...I've heard over and over that "this doesn't work", or "maybe start later", or a hundred other versions of those. The simple problem is that whatever I do, it isn't "right". No one loves it. See, I loved the opening of The Lies of Locke Lamora, but it really broke some of the sage writing advice. It was omniscient, info-dumpy, and after one short scene, did a flashback. None of that sounds like a good idea. But to me, it hooked me from the beginning. So...with my own story, how can I possibly find the right way to open it, if no one ever likes any of the options? I'm all for hearing constructive criticism, but I'm having one of two problems: either I'm such a weak writer I just can't figure out how to actually execute something well, or I'm missing the larger picture of learning where and when to open. 

What I feel like is this:

One critter read this manuscript back in 2011. He suggested I cut the whole first chapter because it's sort of backstory, but it deals with an immediate situation and starts the quest rolling. However, it wasn't told from the MC's POV. So I agreed, it should be cut, but I never found a great solution to solve my bigger problem--the MC will never know any of the things in that chapter, and therefore I worried the story was disconnected. I edited the opening chapter and pushed that though to a few more critters, who all read the opening few chapters and indicated the first chapter was still problematic, because it wasn't the MC's POV. Okay, I knew I had a problem.

Then, I strengthened the first 6 chapters, honing in on the story I wanted to tell, though I left the first chapter pretty much intact. The editing went well, in that I improved on some action and created some more depth, but I also increased words and slowed pacing, so maybe not beneficial in the long run?

Next, I added a couple split scenes, things happening in other parts of the world. Rather than "tell" about the events (as the first chapter had), I "showed" the events happening and then trimmed the conversation that incites the journey. I liked it. Other people had mixed opinions. It went through about 4 more betas.

Last summer, I threw out the old structure of the first chapter, (and basically just threw my hands in the air and threw a hail mary) and mimicked The Lies of Locke Lamora's opening, where the two men meet, they talk, and then interspersed within that one conversation, each of the split scenes takes place. So the whole first chapter was a conversation in person in the present, but interspersed between parts of the conversation, pertinent past split scenes were shown. I gave it to one person and he really thought it was a huge improvement. SO at least I felt I was making progress, because i can't cut the info out entirely, but I can change how I present it.

I recently sent it to another critter, who felt that opening with the conversation (of which my MC isn't a part) detracted from the story, and I agreed. So I followed the advice to rewind in time and show the card game that started the animosity that in the future will lead to a tense relationship between the woman who is kidnapped and the man who she hates, but gets to know after he rescues her.


So, that's where I am. I've rewritten, changed my goals, and generally listened to all the advice folks have given me, and i have to say, I just want to get it "right" but there seems to be no actual finish line here. When I posted the section above, I wanted to show what I mean when I say to me it works great, it's exactly how I like to read stuff, but I can't seem to get anyone else to jump on board and see why I made the choices I did. It's weird how I can spend so much time and thought on something that I stand back and try to look objectively at, and how far off base I feel I'm hitting.

I just don't know which voice to listen to, and the hardest thing to combat, is this feeling that I'm making the right choices, but when other writers read, they're looking for something else. Maybe some feel they'd do it different. Maybe some feel my execution is questionable so they don't trust me to drive the car. Maybe some just hate the style of my writing (detail vs. pacing). I mean, I'm definitely not trying to make excuses, but for all the thought I've given this, I still don't know what's causing the disconnect. I feel like some critters in the past have really just wanted some sort of list to occur in the beginning of the novel--perhaps thinly disguised as dialogue or something--that would basically tell them all the pertinent information up front, so they could instantly decide whether they liked the story and had positive comments, or didn't like the story and would leave negative comments. It felt rushed and insincere at times. (all years ago) That isn't what a reader wants, sometimes. They might want a story that starts in exposition, or be open to POV changes early on to tell a more complete story. I'm not advocating making bad choices, I'm just saying it can be hard to hear writerly opinions sometimes because they can be more a reflection of what the other writer wants, not a measure of whether a reader feels drawn to your character and situation, and is willing to work out the subtle symbolism or whatever...

I'm certainly very interested in continuing to talk about novel opening strategies, because I'm just failing at every turn lately, and it's hard to even want to write right now. But the thing is, I'm not going to get through this if I just keep doing what I've been doing. I'm exhausted from all the caring I've done, and I'm starting to only feel good when I don't think about writing. 

It's hard to determine which voice to listen to, because I've long said I need a mentor something fierce in this business. I think I'm looking for a reader who will trust me to drive the car, and chime in when they like or dislike something, not immediately start highlighting everything that doesn't impress on first glance (give a story a chance, rather than expecting it to feel familiar). I mean...that's the standard I was trying to live up to, and at this point, I think I just have to admit to myself i'm not that guy. I'm not that natural talent. I'll never be him. And I'm okay with that. Because I'm this guy. And I have some good stuff to share too, but I need to figure out how to communicate it effectively. How do some stories make it so effortless-looking, and I'm driving myself into an early grave over it?

So anyways, thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. I know a lot of folks here are more private than I am, but I've just seriously been on this ride too long to give up now. So I suppose I show my crazy out in public a little, hoping a conversation will not only help me get over the hurdle, but might also help someone else. 

You're the best!


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## Velka (Apr 2, 2016)

Caged Maiden said:


> Yeah, Velka, I hear you. I know there are a bunch of fear voices in my head, and it isn't that I don't see it, but the problem is, I'm striving to be "professional" and so my aim is to write "like professionals" not like myself .... Why does my work not look and feel like a published authors'? Is it as good? What makes it good enough? At what point do you know you're doing fine?



Hah! This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend the other day. We both couldn't believe we were _adults_. Like real bonafide, tax paying, career having, house owning, adults. When I was younger I always thought that adults totally had their shit together; they knew what they were doing and had this whole life thing figured out.

Well... now that I'm in my mid (I guess now late, ) 30s I've found (most) adults still really have no clue what they're doing. Look at me I'm an adult busy adulting over here! I still drink milk out of the carton, only do laundry when I run out of underwear, dump a shoebox of tax stuff at the accountant with a shrug and the opinion that I'm paying them to figure this out, stay up too late playing video games, and eat too much candy. 

I'm pretty sure it's the same for many writers. Neil Gaiman talked about still having imposter syndrome, where one day someone with a clipboard would knock on his door and tell him the gig is up and he'd have to go and get a serious desk job. 



> Why does my work not look and feel like a published authors'?



Like Skip.Knox said, perhaps the next step is to pay earth-monies for a real published author editor. You can ask us bumbling fools what we like and don't like about your work all you want, but we're just individual reader voices. Someone whose job is to help get work to the standard that publishers want can probably give much better advice than the peanut gallery.

Also, remember that no published work is perfect. I loved The Lies of Locke Lamora too, but there were structural issues to it (one that pulled me out of the book altogether for a moment), some flimsy character stuff, a few plot holes, etc. Was it a perfect book? Heavens no and if Scott Lynch asked me to beta it I would have tore him a new one pointing all that out. Did I still enjoy it and read the next two books? Hell yes.

Some people not liking some things about your work doesn't mean it sucks as a whole. You can't please them all.


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## Chessie (Apr 2, 2016)

I respect Skip a lot, but an editor is the last thing Anita needs at this time given that she's already struggling with confidence in her work. Someone critiquing her further wouldn't be very helpful from what I'm gathering.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 2, 2016)

Velka, you are my new hero...shoebox full of receipts indeed! That's me! Except I avoid doing taxes as long as possible, and my husband uses it like I hear other couples use sex. HIM: "Oh, you were at the shelter looking for adoptable dogs again? You know, if you got your taxes done, you could buy a dog." ME: "Nope, I was just dropping off blankets. Which reminds me, I think I forgot to make the bed this morning. I better just pop in there and wash the sheets, too. And let me just grab that vacuum while I'm at it. I saw some dust bunnies..." 

Whew...lots to digest today, as I set out to do some grocery shopping. You know the reason I haven't reached out to more "professionals" because I felt I wasn't like them. I don't feel like their peer, so it feels awkward to try to talk as equals. I'll need to give that some thought before I make any sort of move. I would very much like to work with a professional editor, but I need someone who is more a mentor than a hardass right now. I'm not looking for a softy, though, by any means. I gave an editor a shot to wow me and he underwhelmed in the worst possible way, so I chose to not pursue that. 

Okay, folks, I have to leave for a bit, but I'll be back this evening. Thanks!!!


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## ThinkerX (Apr 2, 2016)

Caged, what you are going through now sounds a lot like what I went through with 'Labyrinth' (now 'Labyrinth: Journal') a few years ago.  First draft went all over the place.  Lots of unnecessary fighting.  Had a huge amount of 'telling' instead of showing.  More, it was supposed to be a 10-15,000 word novelette rather than the 44,000 word novella I initially cranked out.

So, rewrite time.  I looked the first draft over and went:

'The core of the story revolves around these points, which are mostly covered in these scenes.  Yes, I have lots of great stuff in other scenes, but they're not crucial.'

So I did a sloppy cut and paste.  Wrote a few connecting bits.  Then I realized...

'well, the story begins in the wrong spot.  I need an opening chapter, say 4000 words, to fix that.'

I made something like eight drafts of that opening chapter.  The first seven didn't work because there was still too much 'telling.'  The story wasn't in the moment.  So with the last draft, I began with the 'inciting incident' - something I'd previously 'told' rather than shown - and went from there.  That version amounted to a self contained story which I entered into 'Iron Pen' and did pretty good.  

It still took three more chapters to reach the starting point of the first draft.  And once I got into that, I realized some of what I'd written needed not just a rewrite, but a major expansion.  A 'city section' in the middle went from 4000 words to over 15,000.

Now, I did the same thing each step of the way - I looked at a section, and asked myself what had to be done to it to advance some element of plot or characterization or story.  Then I went and did it.

My one and only beta reader thus far - who doesn't care for this entire genre - liked the story.  

Now, I mentioned cutting a bunch of stuff from the first draft that I liked a great deal.  That bugged me.  So, some of those scenes, mostly 'telling' in the first draft, are now 'action' scenes in the sequel to that story, 'Labyrinth: Seed.'


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## Russ (Apr 3, 2016)

Caged Maiden said:


> It's hard to determine which voice to listen to, because I've long said *I need a mentor something fierce in this business*.



While I empathize with your plight, I won't commiserate with you.

I think the answer to your problem is right there.  If you don't trust or have not found your own writing path, you need a mentor you trust to a high degree to help you out.  It seems like now is really the time for that for you.

I have seen the process work very well.  My wife got two mentors in her field and their kindness in offering criticism and her willingness to embrace that criticism and evolve as a writer led to her work getting far better.

You have lots of words under your belt and an excellent understanding of the craft.  I  am not sure short answers on a website are going to give you what you need.  My advice would be to find yourself a mentor who is willing to committ to you and that you believe it implicitly.  Then enjoy the ride.

Some people have mentioned commercially available editors or coaches, who can be very  helpful, but I would rate them a second choice over a good mentor.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 3, 2016)

Um...how might one go about discovering WHO might be a good writing mentor? I'm trying not to sound dumb, but would I be looking for a published writer that I really respect? A fellow amateur who's just further along the process than I am? Or am I looking more for a person who works in publishing (because I know a few who work in small press or want to begin their own small press, but they seem rather unable to do much except tell me they'd publish me if they had a choice, which doesn't really help me get better or more marketable in the eyes of the bigger publishers). Or is it a situation where I could make it known in my query letter, to an agent? That last one seems really like a stretch.

I'm just unsure what kind of person I could approach, though I'm fully confident if I met anyone in person, I could get them to support me (I just have that kinda way about me). Is this something I could do in person at a con? Like, meet writers and form some rapport and just ask? 

You're so right, I said this last winter, didn't I? HA! I've been saying it for a long time. I need to really learn what the next step is--how to focus my efforts to make some really intentional decisions, but also make certain I'm executing well. And that's what I'm really struggling with, so very much. Like I know what I want to do...sometimes I stumble on really great results...often, I blindly try, without the confidence that I can create the right effect with my time and effort. So yeah, I really need an experienced voice to help me get out of where I've plateaued, and give me a boost so I can keep climbing. 

 I SO need that. 

And so I think I'm going to stop writing novels right now, go back to organizing my goals and outlines, and I'm going to take up writing personal letters to all the people I'd love to be like or learn from, and at least strike up a few conversations about how one gets to that next level. Yeah. I might get some advice, I might make some friends, I might get told to stop wasting people's time, it's all better than knowing I'm stuck and can't get myself out of the crevasse by doing what I've been doing--either I need to devise a new strategy, or I need to start yelling for help and get over my fear of looking like a fool and sounding like an idiot in the presence of professional writers. I mean...I'm not going to be the dumbest person they've met. I won't have the worst book they've heard about. HA! 

Yeah, my friend (an avid reader who confesses to spending $200/ month on Amazon fantasy books) told me to reach out to one of my favorite authors, to just let them know how much their work has inspired my journey, and while I said I would, I really haven't thought about it again, until yesterday, she told me again how much it would mean to another writer to know how much a fan of their work I am. I thought about that, and it struck me that if I were a successful writer, I'd appreciate someone taking the time to write to me. So maybe I need to just get in contact with some of the folks I've talked to over the years: editors, romance writers, those with agents, and those hybrids who are one foot in the water, one out. See what people really did to hone their craft after they felt competent at writing. For me, this is the biggest question...if someone told me that the story should open HERE, and show THIS, I can totally deliver on it, but I'm finding decision-making really challenging because I always question whether the choices I'm making are the ones a professional writer wold make. Like, surely they make mistakes and have regrets...why am I so hung up on it?


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## Chessie (Apr 3, 2016)

Well...

If you _really_ want to know what choice a professional writer would make, then that would be to write. Just write. No matter what. I belong to two online writing groups. One is a Google+ for pulp speed writers and those folks are monsters. My measly 3k a day is child's play to them. Then there's a Facebook group that's for those in Indie publishing. Here's the thing: both of those groups are filled with professional writers who write daily. They don't stop. Stopping means no funds, no rent, no food on their tables. So I would strongly reconsider you not writing novels right now. How else are you supposed to improve your craft if you don't write?

Far as a mentor goes, the Facebook group is led by a very nice scifi author who mentors writers who wish it. If you're interested, I can patch you up with him on FB. But who this mentor of yours ends up being depends on what your goals for publication are. If you want to be traditionally published, then finding someone in that field to mentor you would be better than an Indie. 

On a final note, all I can say is that it would do you well to read, read, read. Read what's on the bestseller lists on Amazon. Read obscure fantasy. Read some romance, whatever you like. Read blogs by major authors. Take it all in and let that help you figure out what's next. But please, don't stop writing! Even if it's flash fiction daily, or 350 words zero f*ery as Chuck Wendig says. Something. Because if you stop writing then you lose connection with your goals. Writing is the only way to get ahead in this business. I've heard so many writers say, "oh, I wish I could write a novel but I don't have time" or "it's too hard". Boo hoo. Take an hour of video game time and write! Without the craft, we'll get nowhere. Keep writing because most writers won't make the time for it. They won't struggle through the growing pains like you are. They'll abandon the craft and their dreams because it's simply too hard to sit in a room alone for hours making shit up. If you really want to be a professional writer, then your habits MUST...seriously...MUST be like those already doing this for a living. It doesn't take 8 hrs a day, but whatever it means to sacrifice for your craft is what it'll be for you specifically. Most won't do this. Most will give up. Don't stop writing.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 3, 2016)

So you think that I should just move on and write new stuff? See, I've tried that before, written new shorts, started new novels, but the negative voices follow. I keep asking myself what will make THIS novel better than the last ones, where I had characters, plot, and all the elements worked out by the end of them. What's going to make this new story one that feels and looks professional, when I don't know what that looks and feels like? That's the question that's burning down walls in my head right now. How can I get better, if I don't know what the next step "better" looks like, because to me, I've done everything (and more) I can do to grasp every concept of being a great writer. I've scrutinized everything. I feel like I can pass almost every checklist of "Dos & Don'ts" out there. I know I can. Because I listened and I wrote every day for years, and I flexed muscles and experimented, and I learned. But now I don't know what the next step is. 

My stories feel like they're missing something, despite the time I've invested in learning to be a good writer, and I think part of that was that I was devoting a lot of energy into developing a "serious writer voice" that I've since tried to abandon. That'll take some time, but I don't think it's the main issue I'm having. The main issue I seem to have is that no matter how I choose to do something, I'm having a hard time getting the reader reactions I'm hoping for. Like I said, some people ask for one thing, other people ask for the opposite, and always, there's the story, hanging in the middle, not pleasing anyone. That's really hard to get over when it's been happening for 4 years. I'm tired of it at this point, because I've learned all I can about theory in a basic sense, the only thing left to pursue is that next level up in advanced writing theory--practical experience in professionalism (also called "throwing out the rules and getting shit REALLY done"). Not sure.

I'm just really confused. I just feel really unaware of even where I am in this process anymore. I'm unsure of whether I need to try formulaic writing, simplified plots to rein in my inclination to complicate plots, or just start something new and honestly ditch the dozen novels I've already written. I waffle between "what-ifs" and one month I'll work really hard to outline a new work, or several, and then I realize there's no reason for a new work to somehow be easier to write than others were (unless I specifically plan something to be really easy). Or I'll switch focus and really hit a novel hard, editing without mercy and scrapping everything erroneous--only to have my next round of betas each seemingly ask for opposite things yet again. So then I ditch that edit, thinking I got it wrong again and ought to cleanse my palate. So I try collecting some shorts into categories, thinking about maybe putting together an anthology, but then I don't like some, or some I love but then I wonder how to even categorize them...and I get lost and confused, and side-tracked with  new idea.

I'm not being purposefully flighty, I'm much the opposite. I put a lot of energy into one thing at a time, but I feel like a rat in a maze, testing paths and knowing I've come this way before, but there just doesn't seem to actually be an exit...anywhere. 

So that's what's really bogging me down. I can write every day, no problem. I can edit. I can outline. I can brainstorm. But I just don't know what I'm aiming at. Am I attempting to get one novel really polished and self-pub it if 6 months of querying yields nothing? Perfect, I can do that. But I don't want to publish before i'm "ready", so maybe I should pursue some shorts for a while, polish some I like and write a few more to fill out a collection, and publish that. I could do that. But is that time well spent, considering how anthologies don't sell well and the nature of my shorts isn't anything like my novels? Might it hurt me in the long run? Some people write bunches of shorts and have them published in magazines. Maybe I should pursue that--learn what types of stories magazines are looking for and just shift my style to be in line with their needs. 

I can go so many ways, and I've honestly never felt more capable than I do right now, but I just don't know where to find an answer to why I feel less than professional. Why don't my stories resonate with readers? Or is it just that my readers are writers, and that automatically makes it a more opinionated read and the focus is always going to be more on improvement than reader enjoyment? I just want to know if my books are any good and what to do with them, because loads of folks seem to think I'm a pretty decent writer, but I still only get 30% to say they really liked my story (on the polished ones). What kind of statistic is normal? I mean, the percentage is slightly higher when the writer/ reader is in my genre, but only marginally so.


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## Chessie (Apr 3, 2016)

With the exception of a small, and I mean tiny percentage, I've found that writers who critique my work are ruthless and completely unhelpful. They have an idea of what should go into that piece from their bias. Writers have a hard time turning off the writerly hat and are unable (for the most part in my experience) to read a piece for merely enjoyment. This is the way I give feedback now. Did I enjoy it? Why or why not? I don't focus on "you repeated these words" or "you used too many adverbs, rephrase that" or whatever. So yes, I would strongly suggest that you find readers that are not writers to give you feedback. What you're looking for is this: would this reader buy the book? Why/not?

And I wouldn't self-publish as a last resort. Heck no. It's A LOT of work. What comes along with self pubbing: making/outsourcing your cover, writing the blurb, keywords so you appear in the right categories, standing out in that particular genre, which genre of fantasy will your works go in? Is the story marketable? Are you hitting the right tropes? Are you within the 30 day window to be seen on Amazon? KDP select or not? Wide or not? How should you price? Permafree or not? Should I write in a series? Bla bla bla etc etc. Self publish because you want to and it's the right decision for you, NOT as a last resort. Publishing is an entirely different gig than writing the book. Most books don't sell very well so if you're already feeling down about readers not liking your work....then if it doesn't sell...you might find that crushing. Just saying.


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## Penpilot (Apr 3, 2016)

Hey CM

I've struggled with finding my voice. Don't think I've quite found it yet, but work in progress and all that stuff. I've struggled with doubt and conflicting messages from readers.

Here are some of the conclusions I've come to. Like my voice, these conclusions are a work in progress, but maybe you'll glean something useful from them. 

First thing I've decided was to believe in me above all others. This isn't arrogance or dismissing what other's say. But if I get conflicting messages, or have any doubts about what other's are saying. I set those opinions aside and do what my instincts tell me is right. 

I may still screw up, but I got to the screw up using my own reasoning, and so I'll understand how I got there and hopefully will have learned a lesson.

If you blindly follow another's advice, ending in success or not, you probably won't learn as much, if anything at all. It's like a parent doing the science project for their kids. 

Second, relax. Let the characters speak, and let your words come out naturally. Don't worry if it's passive or not or if you're breaking any of the gazillion "rules" out there.

One of my old writing teachers said part of the reason he wanted us to be writing continuously was to empty ourselves. I didn't understand it at first, but I think I do now. What I think he meant was the more you write, the more you empty yourself of expectations. You empty yourself of what you think your writing should be and it just becomes what it is.

Basically, when you're continuously writing, you run out of BS to coat over things, and once you're out of that, only the naked truth is left. 

That truth is your voice. The way you see the world. The way you see and describe certain situations. 

The thing is the BS bucket refills quite fast. I often find myself reaching for that BS coated brush, and I have to catch myself and step away.

I took an editing workshop once. Everyone there exchanged manuscripts and we did critiques and stuff. Some of the comments about my manuscript was that it was hard connecting with my characters, the world, and the story. They asked for more background information.

So I gave them the old short story my manuscript was based on and a few fables I wrote for the world. The short story and fables were almost 20yrs old, and didn't think they were very good. The other editors said they had a much easier time connecting with the 20 yr-old material. The said it felt more honest. 

That gave me a lot to think about, and I realized I was trying to be good little writer and follow the advice of everything I've ever read, and it turned me into a liar. What I wrote wasn't me. It was this Frankenstein of everything. It's kind of like when you mix the light from every color in the spectrum, you end up with white.

As for writing like a pro, I usually think you're not good enough until you are. For some, that point is when you send something out and someone says, they'd like to give you money for it, and the next thing after that, and the next thing.

TL;DL? Just believe in your words. Make your mistakes, and live with them and learn from them. You've made it when you do, and you're good enough when you are. And there's no way to know except by continually sending your stuff out, new stuff, old stuff and everything in between.


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## skip.knox (Apr 3, 2016)

I agree with Russ. He said mentor, I said editor. I think mentor's the better avenue. If you look for professional editors, you will find some of them offer mentoring services. It costs.

I won't speak for Russ, but I wanted to clarify: I am not suggesting you get yet one more voice to listen to. I'm suggesting you get *only* one voice to listen to, and then to listen to that voice all the way through the submitting to agents phase. It may not be the best voice, but only by getting all the way beyond the finish line are you going to develop the judgment you need. The only way I know to develop confidence is to develop judgment. And yes, it's a risk. You might choose someone who turns out to be all wrong, and you've spent time and money finding that out. I wouldn't even suggest it except for this: you're stuck. So the first order of business is to get unstuck.

Again, I truly feel for you. I hope you regain some traction.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 4, 2016)

Okay, folks, a small update. I just had one full week where I didn't think about writing being a focus, I didn't read any of my work, and I didn't even try to write anything. I just let my thoughts work themselves out a little (with your help, of course). I take painkillers almost daily, and since I've been feeling relatively stress-free, I stopped taking them this whole last week, and used this time to try to get some perspective as my own self. Not sure if that makes sense, but anyone who relies on drugs to overcome chronic conditions can probably relate to the mood-altering effects that can sometimes make you question whether you even know yourself anymore. Anyhow...so this weekend has been pretty busy (you know, with kids and husband home), but I'm going to spend the beginning of this week really coming up with a few plans (as many as I can think of) and strategies (hopefully a bunch), and I'm going to sort of try to objectively look at what's really going on with my stuck-ness. Is it all worry, or do I have a bigger problem...time to try and figure that out.

So anyways, if I get anywhere with my mental inventory I'm doing, I'll share that with you all (and thanks again for reading my account of my tribulations). I'm also going to form some sort of preliminary list of those persons I wish to contact (not specifically for mentoring, but rather asking advice on where to begin finding the answers to my questions, and perhaps where one can locate experienced writers who wouldn't mind sharing their journey).

Penpilot, you told me to relax, and so has like everyone else on this thread, and wow...I SO WANT TO...but it has become really difficult. I wish I could just stop the worrying and the second-guessing and all of it, but relaxing just doesn't see to be in my nature. So this week, I'm going to actually relax, even if I have to sedate myself to do it. Desperate times, right? So yeah, I feel you guys. I need to stop fear-writing and just get back to stuff that hits me in the feels and might affect other people how it affects me. I gotcha. I can do that. I'm going to start setting small goals that can help me get out of this slump.

I'm going to compile a master list of all my written works (the ones that are typed, I suppose), and detail what sort of state of finishing they're in. After I have that in hand (because right now that list is a bunch of different-colored post-its stuck to my bathroom mirror (luckily it's a HUGE mirror), and that isn't easy to share with you lot. So I'll get that list together, in the event that my inclination is to return to working on something stupid. I might have a couple false starts, but I know I'm willing to either finish editing a novel to get it off my plate, or to begin something new and not look back at old work at this time. But I might need you folks to keep me honest (you know, because it's so tempting to stray from the work you committed to finishing).

See you tomorrow!


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## Russ (Apr 4, 2016)

Caged Maiden said:


> Um...how might one go about discovering WHO might be a good writing mentor?



I will get back to you with a longer answer but I am going out of town on discoveries this am and don't have to time to share my thoughts on this topic.  Just don't want you to think I am ignoring you.


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## Miskatonic (Apr 4, 2016)

Just look at how many copies really popular books sell and compare that to the population of just the US alone. 300+ million people. Assume that half the people that buy it will have a lukewarm to very negative opinion of your book and you should be prepared enough. Some people won't even read a sentence from your book and still bash you. It's just the toxic nature of the internet. 

You just have to expect to get slammed by some people, even if your book is incredibly well written. Even the most famous and influential authors of all time are bashed by a certain segment of the population. You'll see tons of comments that are basically summed up as "So and so is overrated and their writing really sucks." Just dismiss that kind of crap because those people are not trying to help you get better and just need a reason to complain. 

Unless a reader is offering criticism that they think will help improve the quality of the stories, ignore them.


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## Svrtnsse (Apr 4, 2016)

Right, I've seen this thread, but haven't really wanted to get into the discussion. I'm not sure how much I could really contribute. 

Eventually though...
I read the first post, and skimmed the rest. I'm not sure I can fully relate, as I haven't been in this situation myself - at least not when it comes to writing. But who knows, it might be my turn further down the line.

Now, after reading your first post CM, what stands out to me is that it feels like you have this idea of what writing and being a writer is supposed to be like, but your experience doesn't match that. Could that be the case, or am I completely wrong here.

In a couple of places you mention you have a hard time figuring out what your goal is. From what I gather (from past experience) your goal is something along the lines of: get traditionally published, get acknowledged as a quality author, and make a living off of writing. It's not a bad goal, but I'm not sure having a goal is the issue.

I'm going to be a bit hippy-fluffy here, but I don't think it's the goal that's the issue. I think there's some kind of disconnect between your vision for what you want to do, and what you're actually doing. Or maybe the disconnect is between the stories and your vision for them?
Are you writing your stories the way you do because that's the way they want to be written, or are you trying to make them match some kind of criteria to fit your idea of what they ought to be?

I can't escape this feeling that you're trying to do something that doesn't come naturally to you, and that you're doing it because you believe that it's the way it's meant to be - even though that may not necessarily be the case.
I could of course be wrong, or it could be that I'm just repeating what you're saying, but with different words.

So what I'm getting at is that I think you may be approaching the issue from the wrong angle. You're asking _what's wrong with my writing and how can I get better? _Maybe you should ask _what is writing to me, and what do I want it to be like?_

I wish you the best of luck with figuring this out. At this stage, and after this long, being a writer is a big part of who you are, and losing touch with that or disconnecting from it, is probably a really difficult experience.



---

As an unrelated aside. You really helped me out when I just got started. You showed me the ropes, taught me the basics, and encouraged me to get going. I wouldn't be the writer I am today without your support. Thank you.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 4, 2016)

Thank you Svrt. I appreciate you reading the thread, and would encourage you (if you want to know more about the struggle I'm facing) to read the follow-up posts, as I have a tendency to attempt to simplify an issue into one post, but find that in rambling, I gain more clarity. Often it takes me more than 10k characters to fully express myself  HA! 

I began writing to entertain myself, with no intent to ever publish. Then I began trading and critiquing in 2011, and since, I've been on the warpath to overcome my "weaknesses" and actually write like a "real" author.

I have no goal to make money writing or have a career as a best-selling author or anything so lofty. My goals are internal and personal, if I'm being honest. Rather than hearing the world confirm anything about my abilities or validate I've got what it takes, my goal is simple: I want to feel like I've learned how to rivet a reader and offer an enjoyable story, regardless of whether I ever make any money or have any amount of recognizable "success".

I'm not sure whether that makes sense. Basically, I want to write, and I don't want to embarrass myself by putting my work out there. The problem with that goal, is that it has no measure. I'm totally fine with writing my books, editing them until I'm proud, and whether anyone buys them or not, I want to put them out into the world because I feel the deeper messages of what I'm writing speaks loudly about who I am as a person, how the human condition is something we all experience differently, and that none of us are alone in our living and suffering (whatever our actual life experiences).

I want something to show for the time I've spent learning how to write. But right now, I feel I have nothing to show for my efforts and the love I've poured into my work, because the quality is still not ultimately "professional".

While I enjoy talking with my fellow Scribes about the craft, honing our skills together and overcoming the challenges of creating characters and stories that evoke feelings in a reader, I found that I'm not personally fulfilled in just getting halfway "there", and want to continue to grow as an individual who feels very passionately about learning a skill to get the best I can be at it. 

When I started sewing, I only wanted to make some dresses for myself, to wear and enjoy, much like my stories were in the beginning. But now when I sew, I do so for clients who want something amazing and awesome, and I'm proud when I can deliver a garment that makes the client feel special to wear the things I've crafted for them. That's how writing is for me, but it isn't as easy as making a custom-tailored fencing doublet or a gorgeous gown for a lady who never felt like she had a dress that really "fit" her and made her feel special. Perhaps it's that, that has tainted my experience, because a book is never going to be tailored to a specific reader the way a garment is made to the exact specifications of a body. The mind is a harder thing to fit, in that way, and just as any single dress or doublet won't hit a home run for a hundred individuals, a book is expected to appeal to an audience, rather than an individual. And so, while my stories certainly speak loudly to me, I've been attempting to overcome my individual "wants" and try to ascertain what might make my stories appeal to a wider audience and make them all feel special. And that's really daunting.

I can write stories that inspire me and make me beam when I read the cute bits, or feel a pang of sadness when someone dies, but I have no ability to determine whether I'm even touching a reader as I touch myself...that didn't come out right...but I hope you know what i mean. HA!

My goal is to begin writing things I feel I could publish if I want to, and I think I very much want to take that next step, and make a serious attempt at querying, but I just don't have any confidence I'm where I need to be to do so. I'm desperately searching for the finish line, but I don't even know where it is or what it looks like. So it leads to confusion. 

I've had over a hundred critiques, and the only thing I'm taking away from them at this point, is that there are always problems I can't fix, because no matter how sound the advice I'm receiving, I'm still falling short of pleasing people. I mentioned percentages in a previous post, but I'm unclear about what level of "satisfaction" I should be receiving before I allow myself to feel I've reached my goal. As of right now, I feel like getting readers to respond positively to my work is a carrot that's endlessly out of my reach, no matter how hard I push, and no matter which direction I turn. 

Until about 18 months ago, I'd never read anything like what I was trying to accomplish. Nothing even close to what kind of story I wanted to write, and I didn't have a clear picture of what I was shooting for as an end goal. Then I read The Lies of Locke Lamora, and a light went on. And not a little bulb in a lonely room, but the freaking bat signal, blaring in the sky in a way I couldn't ignore. HERE was a book that fully captured the tone I wanted to achieve, a balance between modern and historical-feeling fantasy, and a "type" of character that I'd always felt exemplified my own personal tastes (gray morality, personal struggle, non-epic plots in which the world s not in danger, but characters and their goals are the main objective). 

After seeing the perfect example of everything I'd been working toward, I was renewed in my own drive and passion. I threw myself back into my work, feeling much more justified in making the decisions I'd been making. 

Recently, the "Serious Writer Voice" conversation opened my eyes to the fact that for the last few years, I'd been editing out my own "voice" because I thought it was weak and stupid, while I simultaneously told my critique partners how much I loved their "voices" in their stories. I felt my choices were lame, but their's were inspiring. And so, I again had to reassess what I was aiming for. Was my goal to please myself with the kind of story I love, or was I trying to please readers? Again, back to the dress...was I making a fine Elizabethan gown that anyone would want to wear, or was I crafting a plain Medieval dress that could be laced to fit many body styles, but because of its lack of commitment, was rather plain in appearance? It was the second. I had taken away anything unique in my writing, and dumbed it down and whitewashed it into bland colorlessness, in my attempt to be non-polarizing and therefore (I thought) appealing to a wider audience. HOW WRONG I WAS!

Now, as I try to regain my own individuality, I look back at all the wasted hours editing and cutting, I want to be clear about my goals as I look to the future. The nagging negativity in my own head has me spinning my wheels something fierce lately, because I feel there is no way I can see to feel validated for anything I've done. I've gotten high praise for a few short stories (which I consider very easy to write), but no one's really liked any of my novels. There are pacing issues, plot issues, and character issues, that despite every honest attempt on my part, have failed to hit the mark even after repeated changes per advice. 

The thing I'm struggling with is knowing whether i'm on the right track to actually writing like a professional, or whether i'm stagnated because of something I'm doing wrong. 

And I don't see any way to answer that question. That's why I asked my fellow scribes, who have a wide range of experiences, whether they had any advice to give on this matter.

I'm desperate to know whether I'm emotionally impacting readers. Whether my stories are worthwhile. Whether I have what it takes. Whether I need help, and what kind of help I need. If my stories are pretty good but need an editor's touch, then are they good enough to query now? Or do I need more rounds of revision before an agent will ever say yes to me? It's just SO hard for me to even try to sort out these answers, and in my confusion, I'm plateaued, because I'm hesitant to spend any more time on revising when it will only yield more lukewarm reactions from my patient and awesome betas. I'm trying to please them, sure, but also potentially, readers. And so my judgement is all kinds of off kilter at this point. I just don't know how I can figure out whether I'm almost there, there already but need to rely on professionals in the business to get me the rest of the way there (as writers do with editors and agents), or whether I've still got years of learning ahead of me before I should even think about pulling the trigger and seriously query or self-publish.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 4, 2016)

Continued...

Thanks for sharing my journey, everyone. I've always tried to be an authentic voice on this forum, no matter what subject we're discussing. For me, this thread is my way of reaching out to a community I respect and from which I derive a lot of fellowship and support. If I had any answers, I'd gladly share them with other folks, but i'm hopelessly lost right now, and I just want to know WHAT I should be doing to further myself as a writer and pursue the kinds of goals that will give me the validation I need to reinvigorate myself. I mean, I can finish this edit. I can write a short story a week. I can write ten more novels. But if that time and work won't lead to feeling like I've accomplished something, I might as well just put down my pen and put documents on a hard drive, and forget this whole thing, because it's becoming unhealthy to write and write and write, only to be told, "Yeah, this doesn't really work because you need to do this..." and then when I do that thing, I get the same response, but for another issue, and then another, and then more. I just want a loud voice to say, "Yeah, this is really good. I cried when he died, and I really felt I could relate to her situation." Or whatever. To feel like something I'm doing is worthwhile, though I fully understand i'll never 100% connect with any reader, and there will always be things that could be "better for some people. I just want to feel in myself like I accomplished what I set out to do, whether that thing was my subtle novel that will expectedly miss the mark for a lot of readers, or my light-hearted stories that won't really be everyone's cup of tea. I have such a wide range of what I can do, I'm having a hard time tailoring these stories to be true to themselves (and mea as a writer) because I'm overly concerned with making them all bland dresses with mass appeal, and I'm starting to realize that in doing that, i'm just disappointing everyone. And mostly, myself.

I've gotten some really eye-opening feedback in the last year. I gave a good friend a novel that's been problematic for a while, and he read it in the middle of a revision that honestly had transformed it into a shambling zombie-story of monstrous horribleness. He was kind in saying it had "problems" and I was well aware of them, as I'd been ready to pull the plug on that particular story for a while. Anyways, one of the things that meant the most to me, was that in the middle of reading the grotesque mess, he wrote me a long and thoughtful email one day. He told me about how smack dab in the middle of the book, there was a scene (that other betas have responded well to and lukewarm to but no one's stated they hate it) that really affected him. He said by all logic, it shouldn't work, but somehow it really struck him in a way that wowed him. I responded to the email with thanks and it paved the way for a new realization (which I covered thoroughly in the Serous Writer Voice thread). Basically, I responded to him that it was a scene I loved and hadn't really edited except for the surface issues of grammar and word choice. Here was a scene that broke rules, stepped way outside the box of what a typical fight scene feels and flows like, and yet I got repeated praise for how readers responded to it. HUH? What happened there?

So I analyzed it for a time (not the scene, but my thinking regarding it and why I was so attached to it despite early readers telling me it broke rules and therefore ought to be changed). I came to accept that the thing that made the passage so different in contrast to what led up to it, was that I loved it too much to whitewash it until it was plain and ordinary and expected. Hm...interesting. So you're telling me that maybe vanilla-ing my stories isn't having the impact that leaving my own voice and vision alone has? WOW! And since then, I've been looking at all the ways I've deviated from my own mind (which I feel is chaotic and therefore undesirable) and my own voice (which I feel is lame and childish at times, and overly-contemplative at others...not a great mix), and how those deviations have perhaps been huge mistakes. 

When I write short stories for challenges, I can't really edit them. I write them fast. I basically read the prompts, allow for a bunch of initial knee-jerk reactions and impulses to flood my mind with images and feelings, and then I set fingers to keyboard and just write. NO planning, no direction. As soon as I get on a roll, I make a small plan, at least an ending, and let the words just flow in whichever direction my emotions and whatever logic I possess takes me. And the thing is, not all my shorts are things I'd like shown in public, a lot of them are things I'm kinda proud of. They've gotten some good feedback, and the ones that were just garbage, I didn't feel were any sort of loss, because I'd learned and experimented, and I'm fine with that. But the middle of the road ones, I've gotten some great critique on by people on this site and elsewhere, and that's helped me to practice my skills little by little, on specific things, because shorts tend to have an individualized style (mores than my novels), and that makes them easier to edit. 

So, my shorts have received kinda high praise (mostly unexpectedly...in fact ALL unexpectedly), and my novels have failed to satisfy REPEATEDLY. So what i'm trying to determine is whether my problem is pacing and plotting of novels (a really big thing because people's commitment to a short is a couple hours, but their commitment to a novel must be a couple days), or whether the real issue I'm having is that I can create a unique voice and a stark character lens and tone in the short story, but take a different perspective in a novel because I worry the voice will be grating over the course of a longer work if it's very unique or "strong" in its conviction. For example, my Clichea entry is one I personally love, and I wouldn't change a thing about the character or its voice. But I couldn't consider writing a novel of that character, because I think it would be tedious to read for any length of time. 

 Oh dilemmas. What is going wrong? HA!


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## Chessie (Apr 4, 2016)

So...is the question: "why don't any of my readers like my stories?"

Perhaps the answer is that you're asking the wrong people to read your work. One important aspect of this entire writing/publishing gig is that we need to know what audience we're trying to reach. YA? NA? Adult nerds who play Pathfinder? Have you asked  yourself who your potential audience is? Because that might steer you in the right direction. If you're constantly having your work read by people who wouldn't buy your book anyway, then hell, no wonder you're feeling as if no one likes your work.

I've only read a little bit of what  you write so I'm not sure I can help you with this question. Suggestion: get on Goodreads and find books that match what you write. Jot them down  on a list. Head to Amazon, look up those books, then read a few of the reviews (1-5 **). Look up the profiles of those readers, see what they liked about the book or what pissed them off. From there you make an estimate of the kind of person who reads books similar to what you write. This'll help you get an idea of perhaps WHO you should be asking for feedback and WHO you should have in mind when writing your books.

On a final note, Chris Fox who once upon a time roamed these forums wrote this fantastic book: Write To Market. It'll change your writing life. I'm suspecting that you may not be hitting reader expectations in the way that you like and that would just take a tweak in education. The book talks about genre tropes and how to write with reader expectation for those genres in mind. Maybe you coud give it a looksie. I know you'll get over this hurdle and not quit. You've come too far to do that, right?


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## Svrtnsse (Apr 4, 2016)

Right, I've had a closer look though the thread and I think I have a slightly better understanding now. I still don't have any solutions, but I think I get it a little bit more now.

Rather than giving advice, I'll share what happened with me after the Serious Writer Voice thread. I don't recall taking much part in it, but I read some of it, and I read some of the blog posts linked. I think I also discussed it in the Recharge thread at some point.

Before that, I'd experimented a little with voice in my previous story, and then after I saw the thread I decided to go all out crazy and see what happened.

Like, wing it. See what works. Test things. Experiment. 
It was good fun, but it didn't quite work - not as planned. The experimental voice strayed too far from safety. It got lost and confused and hard to follow. Irrational. Silly. Confusing. Bad.
So I reined it in, brought it closer to home and put it on a leash. A long leash, but a leash all the same. It could still roam far and wide, but always within sight. Safe.
That worked. By going all out and breaking my boundaries I could pull back to where I felt comfortable. Sure, I'd withdrawn from the furthest reaches of the wilderness, but I was still far from the safety of the village square, and I really enjoyed that.

Above section deliberately exaggerated to make a point. 

- - -

I also noticed you made some comments about outlining, and about how if you get too detailed with it you start to feel like you might as well just write the story itself instead (quoting from memory, it's a long thread). I don't agree with this.
I've probably mentioned this before several times, but I use really detailed outlines. One way of thinking about it is to try and see it as a coloring book. 
I outline until I have all of the contours, and then the first draft is just filling in the colors - adding all the pretty words that put the scene to life.
When doing this I sometimes end up writing entire conversations as part of the outline. It's just a good way for me to get a feel for the scene and what happens in it. And then in the end I change the entire conversation anyway, but that's fine. It's how I roll - as they say.

- - -

I'm still not sure if the above is really helpful. The idea isn't really to give you suggestions for things to do, but to plant the seeds of ideas for things to try. Maybe something will come of it. I hope it will.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 4, 2016)

I'm not sure if the question is simply, "Why don't people like my books..." but it might certainly be, "Why do some people like some of my short stories and some parts of my novels a whole lot (despite them being of different genres), and loads of writers I know just feel they're a terrible miss with too many problems?" 

It might sound like I'm only concerned with pleasing people, and I assure you, I'm not trying to please absolutely everyone, but yes, a target audience would be nice to focus on, and I thought I was doing so, but now, maybe I wasn't? Admittedly, I'm not entirely sure who that is, other than "people who like to read gritty stories and grayscale morality characters who struggle with their love lives and the human condition". I mean, some people just say, "I'm writing for women aged 25-55, but I'm not really sure how one could be so specific about age and gender without being specific about what the story is supposed to do for the reader. By that, I mean that I almost always feature a love story in every novel, but I can't really feel secure calling the work romance, because including a story in the category of "romance" means it needs to hit certain points and fulfill certain requirements. Mine don't. So yeah, I believe in a target audience, but I think my bigger concern is that I've been asking writer friends for several years to give me feedback to improve my writing, and I just find that so often the opinions I get conflict with each other, and I end up more confused by the process than "directed" toward my goals. 

I have to admit that my writing isn't for everyone. Written in Red is definitely not a novel that will have mass appeal. In it, I give subtle clues, and indeed a whole second story is written between the lines. While I LOVE that crap, I understand many readers will be unsatisfied with the fact that I'm asking them to work for the reward. That simply doesn't appeal to a lot of people, but time and again, we hear here how people in our community enjoy older works that do exactly that--perhaps they take a more psychological point of view on story-telling, and I'm probably more interested in exploring the social and psychological aspects of the human condition than a lot of fantasy writers who just want to tell a riveting tale of adventure with clever escapes and a moral message. I'm fine with reading that kind of story, and I write it, too, but I think now I might have just bitten off more than I could chew when I began this novel and passed it off to about 35 people to read during its revisions. It was probably way too raw in its original state to get the kind of feedback that I needed, and since, i've set it aside to focus on another novel.

Sayan Soul (about werewolves and dragons) is my current rewrite, and while I feel confident in my ability to make the story into something I love 100%, I've had a hard time figuring out what's the right route. Do I hand it off to writer-readers now, as I rewrite, to gain outside perspective on what's working? Or do I just ask a friend to help me brainstorm right form the get-go because it needs a full rewrite? It feels like a lot to ask of a friend who is basically donating their time to me, when I feel like I already know the results. I'm going to once again hear, "This isn't working at all because..." and that's detrimental to my process, because I feel like what I'm doing is pretty close to what I want it to be, with perhaps the exception of my execution being somewhat vanilla right now as I try to ditch the Serious Writer Voice I've adopted so as not to be polarizing in my story-telling. 

tough choices.


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## skip.knox (Apr 4, 2016)

Caged Maiden, you made some comments about sewing that struck me, so have to ask: when you started to make clothing for other people, did you submit them to a critique circle? I know that sounds absurd, but bear with me. Did you show designs or prototypes (I don't sew!) as you were working on them to entire groups of people to get feedback? Did you work entirely from pre-set patterns? Or did you rely on your own experience plus internal judgment to produce an article of clothing specific for one person? 

I realize we all want to write for a large audience. But it made me wonder, for myself as well, whether it might make sense to write for one particular person. Chances are, that's not the only person built like that. Chances are, if the story hangs together and flows and engages for that person, it will do so for others.

It's an interesting notion; I'm going to think about it wrt my own work, but I thought I'd toss it out there because, really, you don't have enough different perspectives yet, do you?


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 5, 2016)

I can answer your questions about sewing...

When I began sewing, I used premade commercial patterns. I kept it simple and cheap where I could. I'd compare that to the same place I was those first few years writing (it has taken about the same length of time to get good. I've been sewing for 20 years, and writing for 15). 

After about 4-5 years I was using patterns my mother drafted (not commercial ones), only changing things slightly, making alterations for myself, but typically sewing simple garments for other people, like shirts or trousers with elastic waistbands. 

After that, I got much better because I became an every day sewer (sound familiar to a writing journey at all?). I had to figure out a lot of things, and also began experimenting with unusual fabric, trim, techniques, and patterns and methods of construction. I also compiled photos that inspired me, and I still have those all in a binder, where I can always go back and get ideas, though they have no construction directions or patterns. This relates to that phase where I wrote whatever weird thing for challenges I felt like, because I no longer had to overthink things like POV, voice, etc. Those things became inherent and I no longer needed to remind myself what I was doing.

Then, yes, I did compete with my clothing. I've entered clothing in competitions since about 2009. And you know what? I've consistently scored 7/10 on that too!!!!! I can tell you why, and now that you have me on this tangent, it's SO MUCH like critique with other writers, in a way. So, I put a few dresses in a competition, and I got picked apart because I had a few elements that weren't documented. One, it was sleeve trim, and on the other, it was the closures, which were too modern. While the items weren't really "bad", the judges felt my lack of acknowledgement of those items meant that I should lose points for not having simply said, "I chose this sleeve trim because I liked it, though I have no proof it was used..." So yeah, that was lame, and that was one of my first times ever putting clothes up for the contest (I'd done other things). 

I tried to step up my game. I put the red dress in another contest, fully expecting to do "okay" because it's totally made of synthetics, machine sewn, and with modern machine-made trims. So yeah, a very expected 7/10 on that one, but I got to meet some really knowledgeable ladies and networked and found some new resources, and the experience was good. Here's the link: http://mythicscribes.com/forums/members/caged-maiden-albums-costumes.html

A couple more times I got similar scores, and one lady told me that they really couldn't give me higher scores unless I put in the extra effort to make it more "historical" which I COULD have been doing the whole time, but I really wear the crap out of my clothing, so I don't want to use expensive, special fabric on something i'm going to be camping or working in, right? Well, I decided to give it a go. I made a Celtic men's outfit from the 1530s and it was as hand-done as I could get. Allow me to bore you with details for a moment, because yes, this is parallel to my writing career, and where I feel like I am now, actually. I made a pair of Killcommon Bog Trews (from a sacrificed man found in a peat bog), designed them from photos of scraps, patterned them, hand-sewed them in a nice wool, and totally stuck with a historical look, though it took every bit of my impulse control to not redesign them for a better fit. I bough saffron and dyed a swatch of linen, and bought a similar colored cotton fabric, writing it all up as a learning experience, but one that I couldn't fully follow through with because of cost (it would have cost me $90 for the saffron to dye the yards of fabric, so I DID the work of dying the swatch, but then substituted a pre-dyed fabric for the final look). I made a cloak that I fulled myself (I got it wet and put it in the dryer for a controlled shrink that made it thicker and tighter, and very water-repellant). I carved a bone pin for the cloak. I wrote up a beautiful research paper with GREAT research and citations. There was absolutely NOTHING wrong with my research. 

So, when I turned in the outfit, I scored....7/10 AGAIN! I hand-made every single element of the costume, stuck to a historical look, and even managed to go outside the box, making something people had never seen, rather than a plain 1450's French court dress, which we see every competition, I reckon. The judge told me she was giving me a 7/10 because "We expect more from YOU, Anita." And I was like WTF? If I had been a new person, I'd have won the whole prize category with a 10/10. But people's expectations of me were higher because they'd seen all the court dresses I'd been making on my machine and with synthetics and decorator fabrics, so they expected me not to make a rustic outfit that was all perfectly constructed and uniquely realized, but they wanted me to do some over the top dress with all the frills and awesomeness, but also make it all by hand. I mean...how can you call that fair? NO one else would have had to do that. And just so I'm being clear, there are levels of the art awards and the top-ranked artists are masters of their art. Well I'm the first rank--the bottom rung. I'm right there with everyone else, having only one small recognition for the fact that I can do art at the most basic level of competency. 

The standards were skewed, and while I'm not one to argue with scoring, I did stop competing after that. You have to understand that in a category, a gown as beautiful as Queen Elizabeth's is scored on the same scale as a plain viking dress, or a knitted shawl. But there's a shit ton more work that goes into a gown than a shawl. Like, 80 hours of hand-sewing, which I've done before, but refuse to do every time. I felt they were never going to give me a fair score for the amount of work I was putting in, so I quit putting myself out there to get walloped and criticized in every way, when I knew it would never yield positive results--because I'd listened to their earlier advice, taken it, and still got told I needed to do better than what they expected of everyone else. Ludicrous. I'd anticipate they WOULD expect more from me if I'd been competing in the higher tiers, but they chose not to elevate me to those levels. I wasn't on the VARSITY sewing team, I was on the PEEWEE team, yet they expected me to do varsity level work, alongside the other peewees competing against me, to get the same score. 

I don't think anyone's being unfair to me as a writer, but I feel like when I get feedback, I'm getting a lot of mixed messages. I take the advice given because it sounds good to me, and then the next round of critique just keeps going with the same or same-type criticisms. And it doesn't seem to be getting any better, no matter what I do. 

I just don't think I'm that much worse than a professional writer. I have the skills and understanding to do it, but perhaps I make some really foolish mistakes.  But the issue with that is that when I hand the manuscript to a writer-reader, they don't listen to my questions. Say I asked, "Can you tell me where you feel really connected to the characters, and where you feel that's lessened for you?" and then they comment back things like, "I didn't like this character at all, she's too WHATEVER, and I couldn't understand her." (Okay, fine, specifics would be awesome, though) "And I think you need to lose the first two chapters because it would be more interesting if you started with her already running from the cops." (Hm, okay, that's an interesting take on it. Maybe there's something to that suggestion). Then I consider it, decide yes or no, and make changes if I agree. Next, I get another reader who will say they didn't like the opening with her running from the cops, because it was too much action without any explanation. Not a moment to get to know the character before they're forced into a situation they can't relate to because they don't yet care about the MC. Fair enough. So what do I do next? 

I was frustrated about this SO MUCH in January, so I compiled ten critiques together all on the same novel, and sent it to a friend who got done reading it and didn't feel he could be very helpful because he's way outside my genre. I showed him the words of readers who got the subtle hints I dropped, who loved the characters and their unique quirks, and their voices. And I showed him the words of people who felt the characters were boring and hard to get to know, the plots were useless, and the descriptions flat. I showed him two sets of comments about the same opening, where one person told me to cut all but two paragraphs and rewrite everything beyond that, and another who asked for me to tell more about the world and conflicts right up front, so she could understand. And it just went on and on, completely not in line commentary, from a wide range of readers with various experience levels. 

It felt like the costume thing all over again, but instead of me knowing my costumes kick ass and not caring what others say, I just don't have as much confidence in my writing. My dresses don't have an emotional impact on viewers. Some folks respect the work despite disliking the color I chose, maybe, but with writing, every reader is looking for an emotional experience, to be wowed and dragged into a tale. And every reader thinks each small complaint they have should somehow be "fixed". For the life of me (and as a rather contemplative and alert person) I can't figure out what I'm supposed to do with these comments now. 

Hope that helps with my analogy. I'm not complaining about the comments because I never take it personally, but it just really confuses me moving forward, what I should do to listen to them all. Because, if I listen to them all, I'm still going to have a mess, maybe a worse one, for trying to do TOO MUCH. HA!


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## Penpilot (Apr 5, 2016)

Hey CM 

Today, I was listening to the radio and they were chatting about the new Batman V Superman movie. One person, let's call them Dave, had seen it on the recommendation of another, let's call them Sue, and was sorely disappointed. Dave said the story didn't make sense. Sue said, but the fight was epic.  

The two had different expectations. Dave expected a complete movie with good writing and good action. All Sue expected was Batman and Superman to punch each other.

One person's expectations were met. The other's wasn't. 

Maybe part of how to make sense of your feedback is to find out what your readers tastes are and what they expect.

I once heard a conversation on Star Trek and Science Fiction. One person asked don't scifi fans want something more than just Star Trek? Another responded, some people want more Scifi, others just want more Star Trek.

Perception is definitely skewed by expectations. I remember after first watching Pulp Fiction, I couldn't wait to see the next Tarantino film, Jackie Brown. But I ended up hating it. Years later, while channel surfing, I stopped on a movie and thought it was really good and wondered what the name of it was. I realized it was Jackie Brown.

When I first watched Jackie Brown, I wanted more Pulp Fiction and nothing else would do. It didn't matter that Jackie Brown was a good movie. I couldn't see it because it wasn't what I expected.

I've said this before in other threads, but when someone is critiquing my stories, I'm critiquing their critique. I try to judge if they've made the effort to understand what I'm trying to do with my story and are trying to help me achieve my vision. OR are they trying to shape my writing to be a clone of what ever they like or expect?

Sometimes it's about the author not setting up story expectations correctly. Other times, it can be the reader just not understanding what you're trying to do. 

There are many who don't like GRRM's writing style, and who would love to shape it to something else. But would that really be the best thing for that story? I would say no.

Sorry this was a bit rambly but hopefully there's something useful.


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## Devor (Apr 5, 2016)

This is a big thread and I haven't read through all of it.  But I want to chime in anyways because if I don't comment now and commit I don't know if I would get a chance to catch up.  So bear with me if I'm repeating things other people have said or if the conversation has moved and I'm behind.

I want to talk about three things from the OP:




> The problem I've run into on this one is that it's too long. Like hella long, and I trimmed all I could, but then I noticed I cut "me" out, and eliminated my tone and style, for the sake of brevity.



It sounds to me like you've got your lines of advice crossed.  You're trying to force brevity into your writing style, but it sounds like it's the content that needs to be cut.  I can't tell you if your writing voice is fine.  But it's clear that it's your story structure that's causing all of these problems.  You need to look at cutting whole pages, combining characters and scenes, rearranging your content into something that's got a tighter pace.

The best thing I could tell you - and this I've never done, but I have friends from college who make successful youtube videos and they swear by it - is to storyboard your novel.  Name every scene on an index card, lay them out chapter by chapter, and stare at them.  Look for scenes that have the same characters and combine them.  Look for the big event scenes and if they're too far apart, pull out some of the cards in between them.

Stop fretting about your writing voice and do whatever you can to streamline the content.  Tighten up your storyboard, not your sentences.




> The main thing I realized was that readers have a hard time getting their bearing in the story because right from page one, there's a whole lot going on, because the inciting incident happened two years before the story opened.



My first thought here is that you're thinking about this wrong. Your character's _backstory_ has a big event that happened two years ago.  Your novel needs an inciting incident of its own.  As I gather, it's a revenge story, and the incident that your MC is revenging was two years ago.  But what's changing as the novel begins that causes the revenge plot to get under way?  That's your inciting incident.  For instance:

 - Guy sits in jail, bitter and sour, with parole coming up.  He was framed for a crime, but he's depressed and prepared to lose the parole hearing.  This is the *home*, the status quo as things begin.

 - Guy learns that the person who framed him has committed another crime.  Maybe the new crime reveals something about his enemy.  This is the *inciting incident* that causes the character to change and the story to begin.

 - Guy becomes determined to ace his parole and get out of jail so he can stop the guy who framed him and get revenge.  Getting out of jail, and hooking up with the resources he needs to get his revenge, that's the *first act*.  The inciting incident makes that happen.

The inciting incident is the _why now?_  What's about to change, as you open your story, that makes this the right starting point?  That's what it sounds to me like you need to figure out with your novel to answer the criticisms you're receiving.

I don't think a prequel would solve the problem you're having with _this_ story.




> I'm unsure whether my problem is that I need to turn writing into a recipe I follow that will yield the results I'm hoping for (because I've never believed much in formulaic writing as a definitive tactic to achieve professional quality), or whether I need to just take an extended break and rejuvenate (which I've been doing and keep getting back to the same stress level in shorter periods of time), or whether I just need to cut ties, do my best, and send stuff to someone else to edit, and just get over it. The worst thing is, I can totally write new stuff at any time, but then I do the same things to it, too.



What I think you need is to find a new way to think about your writing and about the way you consider advice.  A novel takes a bundle of different skills that you have to hone to tell a good story.  It sounds like you've been working on the wrong skill set for the problems that you're having, and that much of the feedback you're receiving has worked like a red herring, pushing you to improve in the wrong areas.

I would suggest looking at story structure formulas.  I know people fume about them, but really, it's not that much of a formula.  Crime shows are formulaic; basic story structure techniques hold firm for just about anything.

There's only so much that I can say without reading more of your work.  But I think you would do better by focusing more on story structure and pacing than on whatever feedback you're getting.  Your readers are confused, but they're not the ones who can equip you to solve the problem.  You are.

You just need to see it differently.


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## Devor (Apr 5, 2016)

> *The faint green glow surrounding Daveed, the man across the table from Raisa, was an anomaly she couldn’t explain, a peculiarity often attributed to eccentric wise women—just a nice way of saying witch. While Raisa didn’t consider the brief and unannounced appearances of the oddity a skill, any more than drunkenness was a skill learned by imbibing, it had its merits. Past experience taught her that a person’s aura flickered like a candle near a window when they were deceitful, and Daveed’s had flickered twice in the last breath he sucked between sneering lips. He checked but didn’t raise. Not yet, but he would.*
> 
> Raisa picked up her cards as play passed from quiet, smug Daveed to his polar opposite, the unreserved socialite of Brazelton’s criminal underbelly, Andrew Strange.
> 
> ...



^ Anita, for the most part this is a pretty solid opening.  If this is an indicator of anything, your writing has tons of strengths and your fourteen years has gotten you plenty of skills to show for it.

But I have two comments for you, concerning the two sections I've bolded.

The first:  You've opened on an info-dump.  It's not really a dump - it's a well-written paragraph and a compelling piece of information - but the very first image and emotion you've evoked for your readers is about the magic instead of the characters.

The second:  She's trying to play him, to pull one over on him, in a way that isn't really about the poker game.  That's clear with the last three lines, and it's really compelling.  What you need to emphasize throughout the scene is the slow build up to this reveal.

If it were me, I would start with a sentiment closer to the one I've underlined.  She's eager, she wants to play him and the thought excites her.  Open with and build on that excitement, leading right into the _action_ that is her checking her cards and getting the cheap flop, _and then_ explain the magic aura and the rest of the scene.

The hook, in this scene, is:  She's excited about playing this guy in a way that has nothing to do with the poker game.  What's she excited about?  I want to know.  That, I think, is the sentiment you need to tease and play up throughout a passage like this.  That's the throughline that everything needs to connect with.

I won't care if you've got a couple of wordy sentences if you're delivering on that hook.


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## skip.knox (Apr 5, 2016)

Thanks for the reply on the sewing; I found it interesting.

I'm not going to try to offer more advice; I've already offered mine. You have enough, with more for leftovers. It does seem, however, that you are committed to writing. You have faced plenty of discouragement, yet you keep going. I do believe that fits the classic definition of a writer. I hope you can find a way forward, and you always have a home base here!


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 6, 2016)

@ Skip :grouphug:

@ Penpilot:

The only thing I could say to explain how much I agree with what you said but am still confused, is that SO MANY times I contacted crit partners and specifically said, "Hey, thanks for critting for me, I really appreciate your time. Just to let you know what kind of feedback helps me most, I like to know when something stands out as bad, yes, but I really need to know when something connects with you, makes you feel something, or otherwise leaves you with a strong impression, especially if it's positive, because that helps me to know what works so I can repeat it." 

And most often, I just receive general negative comments, not specifics. Like I said, that's not a complaint against any person from MS, because a lot of my crits have happened from other sites or from people I knew personally, but I've had a really hard time getting anyone to tell me what they liked about my novels. I get plenty of positive feedback on challenges here for short stories, but the novels have been difficult to judge whether anything's even working. That's why I compiled the crits and sent them to a friend, so he could just see what I'm facing. So many opinions that sound the same, "I don't connect to this character, he's unrelatable", and then, "I love this guy, he's so mysterious and it makes me want to figure him out, because I know something important is happening and he's just not letting on." And in my head, I want to hug that last girl and just shout "YES!! You get me! You saw it!" But the other comment concerns me so much, because I wonder WHY those other folks couldn't connect with the character. You see, they comment and make me aware of a situation, but usually have no suggestion for what might work better. Is it as simple as giving him a one paragraph goal-type internal thought the first time we see him? Is it that i've purposely drawn him as a sketchy kind of guy who is quiet with other people and almost tries to hide his feelings from the reader in his head? I mean, without specifics, I just feel like people hate stuff and good luck to me changing it so they like it. 

@ Devor 

That was really thoughtful and gave me a few new things to think about. If you did repeat anyone else, you spun it in a way that I've absorbed it differently. 

I'm not dismissing any of what you said, but the first round of editing was where I cut scenes, eliminated characters, and got rid of anything I didn't love as part of the finished work. That brought me down 40k words, so a pretty good cut. But then I had to rebuild the story in a few ways, adding back in NEW small scenes that could do twice the work of the ones I cut. So I'm sitting at about 145k words right now, with two chapters to go, and it's a lean animal that's going to cannibalize itself if I take any more of the "special" things out, because without a little bit of flair, it'll implode and no longer have anything worth reading. It'll just be people doing stuff...without style, without foreshadowing, without the secrets that make it good. I can cut 6-7k words if I drop a few of the scenes in which the charade comes close to being exposed and then finally is exposed (and just tell the reader up front who everyone is and who's betraying who). But then it'll suck. So yeah, that's the one thing I can't do any more, is trim scenes out. If anything, I need to keep every scene I have and re-fatten them with my personality and tone, keeping careful attention on clarity.

Also, thanks for thinking my writing isn't awful. I hear what you're saying about the opening, but I'd like to pose another question to you folks about that. Do you feel like it's helpful to give a couple paragraphs of "Other" focus in a more contemplative piece? I'm asking because I deliberately didn't open with action on this one, because it's a very internal story, with a lot of contemplation. I don't want to state her motivation in the first line. The fact that she can suddenly see someone's aura is really important and would definitely dominate her thoughts (it's a rare thing to happen to her). I wanted to open with an image, a clear picture of what she can actually see and say it in a way that makes it sound mysterious, unusual, still kinda foreign to her. I don't always do this, usually I'm more direct about setting, but in this case, I just feel strongly about the opening paragraph being the sort that will set the tone of the story--contemplation, understanding, and the human condition of being authentic.

About the inciting incident of the other novel, it happens on screen in a way, but the novel sort of skips ahead. Let me try to explain, because I really value what you said, but I was not clear. 




Spoiler: Little Spoiler



The opening is a woman confronting a priest. She's been in exile for 6 years, (after he told her never to return) and her son is dead, killed in a suspicious accident. She asks the priest if he hid the son before the accident, if he's scaring her to punish her. He says he doesn't know anything about it. She knows in her heart the man killed her son. After a very brief few lines of dialogue, the woman leaves and overhears the priest talking to a man who just entered. He's a lawyer, and he's upset with the priest for another reason--the death of his friend. He stands up to the priest as the woman couldn't. When he leaves, rather than going back in and trying to murder the priest, the woman follows the lawyer. But then the next scene happens 20 months later, when the woman and her associates are plotting their next move in a long line of ploys to get the old priest arrested and excommunicated.



All the reasons for this opening scene technically happen in another whole book, not in a single incident that occurred in the past. And I think maybe that's a real thing. I mean, if a person loses a parent in a fire, that's an incident in back story, but in my case, a whole life is lived that leads up to this novel, and that has been extremely torturous to bring out in the novel without info-dumping or sounding erroneous and self-indulgent. And the worst part is, that I was happy to skip it and just hint at it all, but readers time and again felt they were missing important things and it kept them from enjoying the story and connecting to the characters. THEY asked for me to open in a way that they could understand how much the lover meant to the old woman, and I simply can't deliver it in this work right at that point.

There are tons of secrets of which I simply can't make a reader aware, especially in the beginning. But if the prequel could show all of it (in an interesting and well-executed way, of course, not as a sort of tagalong cliff notes version of a story, just to give clarity on the other book, but as a fully realized story), I love the idea. And here's why: 



Spoiler: Super Spoilery



Basically, the woman told the old man the son was his (which I can reveal in a prequel but not tell a reader upfront in this one), but the son looks like his real father (who isn't revealed until the end of this book, but I could totally write that into the prequel, thereby eliminating the secret's late reveal in this book and instead having it as a secret the reader knows from the prequel and is already aware of how tense that makes the scene and how much trouble the woman is in). Also, the novel has three groups of characters. And this has been a HUGE problem, getting to know them all. I first have the antagonist, the priest above. Once, the old woman above worked for him, along with another priest (her son's real father), and the old priest was a fair and formidable man. But he grew hungry for power and did some bad things, which ultimately ended in the woman and her lover leaving his employ. So...there's no way I can get to that info until halfway through the novel, but if I did a prequel, it'll all be on screen and the tension will be real and feel like a "first time" rather than tacked on as an afterthought to explain things away. The woman and her lover are the second group. They have a small network of spies they run, and their goal is to destroy the old priest's position of power by catching him in an act of treason (the only way to convict a priest). If they murder him, another priests will just be able to take his place, so they want to affect social reform to change the double standard. The third group is a young woman in the countryside, and her family and friends and lover. She's engaged to a man in the city (in chapter four, I think), and I'd have to call that the other inciting incident, but it's hard to pick just one, when you have multiple groups of characters). So she's wed to the city's chancellor...and he's the single element that holds everything together in this story. He's married to the MC girl, partner to the old woman and her lover (not revealed until chapter 14), and he's the one working for the old priest and attempting to get him to commit treason so they can bust him. So...it has been really REALLY hard to get all the information out to the reader up front, and there are so many character names to learn, I just can't help feeling that if the reader was already familiar with the old woman and her priest lover and their history with the antagonist and his lackeys, that this novel would make so much more sense as a second one in the series, rather than trying to make it hit all the points on its own. I could eliminate chapters that exist solely to reveal a complicated history between the old woman and her lover (they're no longer lovers in this story).


Hope that all sheds light on the serious why of my considering writing a prequel. Honestly, the more I look at how much work a prequel could do, and the ability of it to take the weight off the original novel, the more committed I am to writing it.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 23, 2016)

Today, again, I find myself unable to make decisions. You know, this is really killing my spirit, friends. I might be the most prolific word-putter-outer I know, and yet, I'm spinning my wheels and can't see the finish line. 

Okay, one quick question for today, because I already feel guilty over the length of this thread and how much I've shared my personal weaknesses here:

Pretend you're at a waterpark, and there's two lines to get onto two different slides. (please don't tell me you hate waterparks...call it sandwiches then...  )

So the one slide, the red pill, the sandwich on the left, is one that is about the world, it's many workings, and it shows plot and information and violence right from the beginning. It sets a tone that will follow the story, but it begins with characters whose POV is never the main one. It hints at the MC's connection and rather than show her, it tells how she's important and begins the journey to find her.

The other slide, the blue pill, the sandwich on the right is a personal one. It is more of an acquired taste, but it deals with a character's deeper personal stakes in her own life, and then the world sort of blows up after, showing the change in this one character's life first, and only after shows how she fits into the world. It's slower, but attempts to invest a reader in a person first, before the world and greater plot situation.


I can't decide which side to commit to, which pill to take, or which sandwich is going to fill me up at this moment. I like them both, and readers are torn 50/50 on which they like, too. And I'm really stuck again, because I thought at first that my target audience would enjoy the more personal story, but 50/50 aren't great odds. It's a crap shoot. Is a hung jury okay? How can I decide which pill to take? I like the Matrix, but I also like being "me". I love subtle personal stories that blow up, but I also like broad strokes that start with a panoramic and tell me right from the beginning why things are important.

Do you guys have any thoughts on how a writer makes that kind of decision? Is it a good idea to bland the two things? I mean, can you have a vegan Whopper, or is it then un-vegan by its very nature at that point? Do I risk alienating both sets of readers by combining things? Or is that just the difficult choice every writer must make to please an audience?


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## Penpilot (Apr 23, 2016)

Can you do both? Make both sandwiches--They'll have common ingredients--then eat them both and decide which one you like more, and call it Old Blu.

Then you can take the one you like less, spruce up the recipe, change some of the flavors around, and call it New Red.

Now you have two different sandwiches to serve your audience.

I suddenly feel hungry now.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 23, 2016)

So what I did was write the new opening (that focuses on the MC and her life before any change, or more precisely, as she's trying to change her own circumstances) into the first chapter slot, and I moved the old opening (with the change in the world and an outside influence that will pull the MC into a group on a quest) into the chapter 3 slot. I did that so I could keep them both, and that way, the old opening became the climax of act 1. To me, it's the best possible solution, and I think it flows really well. 

I guess I thought it was the best I could do to keep everything as it should be, without wanting to preserve old things for their own sake, but to tell the complete story with the world and the character. I just worry now that with a character-based opening, a slower start, I'm maybe not creating as much impact for some readers?

I suppose this will eventually come down to my target audience and the agents I target and who they feel most comfortable marketing to and what they prefer to see in fantasy. Yeah...definitely time for a sandwich...with all the toppings...


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## Heliotrope (Apr 23, 2016)

Oh dear  I'm afraid I was part of the 50% that preferred ham to turkey (and even helped make the ham and butter the bread)... So I can't comment. 

But what I can say is that you need to trust your own creative voice. What feels right to you? Sometimes I'll be working on a story and it is like pulling teeth to work on it. Other times I will be working on a different story and the time will be past midnight and I still want just ten more minutes... 

Which story is more compelling to you? 

And if you think it is a slow start, then brainstorm how to make it a more compelling start. What else could happen, how could you ramp up the tension?

I hope you figure it out because I can't wait to read chapter 2


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## Peat (Apr 23, 2016)

Everywhere I go, the advice seems to be "Start with a hook! Reel them in quick! Show them the action, show them the goods!"

And it leaves me slightly puzzled because

a) I actively prefer slower starts. Books that plunge straight into the action without establishing why I should care lose me double-time. I find characters more interesting than action scenes.

Now, that might just be me being a relic who started his reading in the late 90s, but...

b) When I read the greats in the genre, I read slow, character based starts that take a while to get to the action. The opening page of Harry Potter doesn't even mention Harry Potter. Maybe this is inertia over what's considered to be the greats, but I don't think so. I think there's an under-estimation of readers' interest for strong characters.

So... I think you're doing the right thing. I may be wrong though! But still, at some point, you've got to stop second-guessing what you have and take a punt on it - and I think you also have to accept you can't please all the people at once. The closest you can come is to have incredibly engaging writing that overwhelms normal preferences, but then everyone has a different idea of what incredibly engaging writing is...

Good luck, and as Heliotrope says, trust your own creative voice.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 24, 2016)

I think at this point, a rewrite is a rewrite. It won't be perfect, but I can certainly make up some ground on what wasn't working in that first draft I left behind so long ago. My next instinct is to write the best chapter two I can, and see whether in the future I can trim away some of what makes the opening terribly droll for some readers and excites others with a promise I'm announcing I'll fulfill. Both the old opening and the new one have something important to add to this book, and I guess at the end of the day, I can only keep in mind what this particular story is and who it will most likely appeal to. And I don't just want to put my own name on that list. 

Thanks to all my friends who have put up with my many drafts of my many novels. Some of you have been punished more than others, but I can honestly say that though you've seen me at my very worst, wading through words a decade old in some cases, I have become better because of your sacrifices. I sincerely appreciate this forum and its members who share their experiences and advice. I wouldn't be where I am without you all, and as for now, I'm just going to try to finish what I began, thought it's uncomfortable at times. 

I'm taking the red and blue pill and hoping for the best...


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 5, 2016)

Thank you so much friends!

Since posting this huge problem that had me super upset and questioning my will to continue, I've found a crit group with folks who really push me, encourage me to be myself, and put the screws to me when I start to self-doubt. 

That's been an amazing experience. I also let my mom read the book I'm rewriting. I wrote about that in another thread.

Well, I'm not out of the woods yet, but I feel well on my way. I came back to re-read these posts, so I didn't forget what brought me to this breakthrough. It was a really rough patch, there, and I'm glad you all weighed in and told me that the world was going to go on, whether I figured things out or not.

I figured things out.

But there's still more progress to be made.

I'm 30k words into the rewrite, and things are going well! Better than I ever could have hoped for. Three tough critters and my mom have read it, and not one negative comment or lukewarm response! WOW!!!


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## skip.knox (Jul 6, 2016)

>I'm taking the red and blue pill and hoping for the best...

Purple! The imperial color!


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