# Rant About the Publishing World



## Guy (Aug 22, 2011)

I'm sorry but I have just got to get this out of my system.

Why can't publishers just say, in plain language, what they want? Rejections have probably made me paranoid, but I swear it's almost as if they deliberately jerk us around just for grins. For example:

"We want writers with a fresh voice, well-developed characters, and a strong plot." No ****, Sherlock. Of course that's what you want. That's what every publisher wants. And every writer thinks they provide it. It doesn't tell me didly squat about whether I should submit my story to you or not. 

"Do your research to find out what we like." So me wanting you to say something like "We accept epic fantasy and dark fantasy" is expecting too much? I shouldn't expect you to be a little more specific than the catch-all "fantasy," which these days can mean anything from _The Lord of the Rings_ to _Charmed_ (how I absolutely detest that show) to Harry Potter to Zombie Apacolypse to _I ****ed a Ghost and I liked It._ Half the stuff that was once considered horror or romance is now lumped under fantasy.

"We want original storytelling." Like hell you do. The plethora of vampire stories blows that claim out of the water. Honestly, if I see one more vampire novel I'm going to vomit blood. It's gotten to where I'm actually afraid to step into the fantasy section of my local Barnes and Noble because half the titles have either "vampire" or "blood" somewhere in the title. What's the appeal of vampires, anyway? Why does the presence of blood make them lose control? As much as I love bacon cheeseburgers, I've never been willing to kill someone for one. Is it the lust angle? Again, as desirable as I find, say, Denise Milani, I could maintain my composure if I met her. I mean, what you have here is someboby who hates light, has serious self-control issues, lives to consume a single substance, and is willing to do literally anything and use anyone to get that substance, so basically this character is a drug addict. I don't see anything appealing about that. It seems rather pathetic to me. So with this glut of vampire stories on the market, don't stand there and tell me you seek originality. If someone submits something original, you have no way of knowing how it will sell. The established trends, however, sell very well, so you play it safe and stick with that and continually churn out the same stuff until someone sets a new trend by, you guessed it, writing something original, and some publisher finally took a chance on it after scores of others probably passed on it. Seriously, the accounts of all the rejections famous writers endured before someone accepted them are legion. I'd think publishers would've learned from them that sometimes it pays to take a chance on someone new writing something new.

"A writer should be qualified to write the book." Kirstie Alley's diet book is conclusive proof this claim is pure, unadulterated Grade A B.S. Ditto those relationship books written by celebreties with multiple divorces behind them. What's next, a book of etiquette by Kanye West? And exactly what qualifies someone to write fantasy, anyway? We're making up entire worlds, for heavens sake. What formal qualifications do you need? What qualified Tolkein to write about hobbits, elves, dwarves, and orcs? What does a writer put on his resume, something like "To research my story I channeled the ghost of Homer and he told me just how to do it?" WTF?

It sure would be nice if the industry could standardize synopses. Some publishers want one page, others will accept synopses with double digit page numbers. Further complicating the issue are those publishers who don't specify. So here I've written both short and long synopses and I have no idea which one I should submit. Is a little standardization too much to ask?

Well, like I said, the frustration has been churning in my gut for some time, now. I know I'm whining and some of my complaints are irrational, but I had to get it out.


----------



## Ravana (Aug 23, 2011)

Guy said:


> "Do your research to find out what we like."



Translation: "Buy copies of our publication." (Yes, it is arguably the best research… but it also boosts their sales. Besides, no single copy is going to be fully representative of what they "accept"; for that, you need to buy multiple issues.…  )

My biggest gripe is when they say they want "well-developed characterization" and at the same time limit you to 2-3k words. Exactly _how_ are you supposed to do _that_?


----------



## Codey Amprim (Aug 24, 2011)

Oh the fun I'm going to have trying to get published. There needs to be a big ol' *SPOILER* next to this category!


----------



## Argentum (Aug 24, 2011)

And I'll probably be joining all of you in your frustrations come this winter. Hopefully my book will be completed by then.

It is true that they look for "Fantasy" and that it covers basically everything. It's really sad, because you end up submitting to them and get crushed because it wasn't "what we were looking for". Why don't they just say up front they want to publish something like Twilight... cheesy and poorly written, but makes oh so much money.


----------



## Kate (Aug 24, 2011)

It's a business, and a weird one at that.  

I was reading this article the other day. By the sounds of it, publishers are grabbing up each and every manuscript from each and every new writer out there in the hope of not missing out on the next JK Rowling, but I wonder how close that is to the reality.  Not very, would be my guess.


----------



## The Blue Lotus (Aug 24, 2011)

Argentum said:


> And I'll probably be joining all of you in your frustrations come this winter. Hopefully my book will be completed by then.
> 
> It is true that they look for "Fantasy" and that it covers basically everything. It's really sad, because you end up submitting to them and get crushed because it wasn't "what we were looking for". Why don't they just say up front they want to publish something like Twilight... cheesy and poorly written, but makes oh so much money.



OMG! Thank you so much!!! 
I was a member on another forum where there was a discussion about YA and fantasy novels going on and I injected my 2 cents about how annoying it is to see crap like Twilight spoon fed to impressionable kids as Litteraly greatness and I was verbaly lambasted off the sight  
Really... It sucked! and not in a good way I might add. >_>


----------



## Xanados (Aug 24, 2011)

The Blue Lotus said:


> OMG! Thank you so much!!!
> I was a member on another forum where there was a discussion about YA and fantasy novels going on and I injected my 2 cents about how annoying it is to see crap like Twilight spoon fed to impressionable kids as Litteraly greatness and I was verbaly lambasted off the sight
> Really... It sucked! and not in a good way I might add. >_>


Hello, Lotus. I've come to tell you that your post was the longest sentence I've ever read.  

Literary*
Verbally* 

I do have a point to my posting here: Terrible music, games and books flood the industry. What can you do? It is the way of things. Simplicity sells.


----------



## Philip Overby (Aug 24, 2011)

Xanados said:


> I do have a point to my posting here: Terrible music, games and books flood the industry. What can you do? It is the way of things. Simplicity sells.



Nothing wrong with simplicity.  Sometimes people just want mindless entertainment.  Like, say, internet forums?

Readers don't always want to be challenged.  Just like people don't want to watch documentaries about the mating cycles of beetles.  It may be insightful and interesting, but variety is the spice of life.  Watch and read crap sometimes.  Sometimes I want French wine and sometimes I want cheap beer.


----------



## Xanados (Aug 24, 2011)

Phil the Drill said:


> Nothing wrong with simplicity.  Sometimes people just want mindless entertainment.  Like, say, internet forums?
> 
> Readers don't always want to be challenged.  Just like people don't want to watch documentaries about the mating cycles of beetles.  It may be insightful and interesting, but variety is the spice of life.  Watch and read crap sometimes.  Sometimes I want French wine and sometimes I want cheap beer.



I haven't been on a single forum in my life that was mindless entertainment. Creative juices ooze out of the posters there, most of the time. 

I guess I just can't relate. I play old-school RPG's, read books that AREN'T Twilight and enjoy challenge. Mindless unsophisticated drones, I say.


----------



## The Blue Lotus (Aug 24, 2011)

The only prob I have with these types of books is that they are the ones that get ALL the attention. 

So people like my little sister think that this is GOOD work, not mindless laziness. >_> Really there should be a law for every piece of "Mainstream" poorly written crud a publication pushes they should have to push two that are the exact opposite with the exact same amount of funding, and energy!


----------



## TWErvin2 (Aug 24, 2011)

*Guy*, I'll insert my two cents:



Guy said:


> I'm sorry but I have just got to get this out of my system.



Nothing wrong with that. It can be very frustrating at times (and that's an understatement).



Guy said:


> Why can't publishers just say, in plain language, what they want? Rejections have probably made me paranoid, but I swear it's almost as if they deliberately jerk us around just for grins. For example:
> 
> "We want writers with a fresh voice, well-developed characters, and a strong plot." No ****, Sherlock. Of course that's what you want. That's what every publisher wants. And every writer thinks they provide it. It doesn't tell me didly squat about whether I should submit my story to you or not.



Because publishers don't know exactly what they want. Some imprints do, saying they focus on paranormal romance, but even that is wide open.

If they narrow the focus too much by stating specifically, it will stifle the creativity of what is submitted for them to consider. Like a judge once said (or close to it): I can't tell you exactly what pornography is, but I know it when I see it."  Same thing for the publishers. They have a decent idea of what they're looking for, but they'll really know it when they see it.

Your quote on what they want...you'd be surprised how many retread stories with flat characters (even mirrors of those already in print) show up on a publisher's doorstep (inbox). Not quite fan fiction, but pretty close.



Guy said:


> "Do your research to find out what we like." So me wanting you to say something like "We accept epic fantasy and dark fantasy" is expecting too much? I shouldn't expect you to be a little more specific than the catch-all "fantasy," which these days can mean anything from _The Lord of the Rings_ to _Charmed_ (how I absolutely detest that show) to Harry Potter to Zombie Apacolypse to _I ****ed a Ghost and I liked It._ Half the stuff that was once considered horror or romance is now lumped under fantasy.



This can be done by looking through their catalogue and descriptions, going to the library and bookstore and searching the shelves. Go online and read a few reviews or go to Amazon.com and take a look.  It's harder to do with submitting short stories than with novels, but often a market will have online samples.

You might be surprised how many writers just shotgun off queries, or submission packages without even looking.  Sometimes fantasy publishers even get straight romance or mystery without a hint of speculative fiction. I heard one writer suggest that her romance novel could be classified as fantasy because it occurred in a fictitious town.




Guy said:


> "We want original storytelling." Like hell you do. The plethora of vampire stories blows that claim out of the water. Honestly, if I see one more vampire novel I'm going to vomit blood. It's gotten to where I'm actually afraid to step into the fantasy section of my local Barnes and Noble because half the titles have either "vampire" or "blood" somewhere in the title. What's the appeal of vampires, anyway? Why does the presence of blood make them lose control? As much as I love bacon cheeseburgers, I've never been willing to kill someone for one. Is it the lust angle? Again, as desirable as I find, say, Denise Milani, I could maintain my composure if I met her. I mean, what you have here is someboby who hates light, has serious self-control issues, lives to consume a single substance, and is willing to do literally anything and use anyone to get that substance, so basically this character is a drug addict. I don't see anything appealing about that. It seems rather pathetic to me. So with this glut of vampire stories on the market, don't stand there and tell me you seek originality. If someone submits something original, you have no way of knowing how it will sell. The established trends, however, sell very well, so you play it safe and stick with that and continually churn out the same stuff until someone sets a new trend by, you guessed it, writing something original, and some publisher finally took a chance on it after scores of others probably passed on it. Seriously, the accounts of all the rejections famous writers endured before someone accepted them are legion. I'd think publishers would've learned from them that sometimes it pays to take a chance on someone new writing something new.



Actually they do want new stuff. What you're seeing hitting the shelves with the major publishers was probably originally submitted at least 18 months ago, probably longer. Unless the writer has an influential agent, it will take several months to get a first reading, then often it is shared with another editor...wait to get read. Then the editor has to talk to marketing and maybe even a meeting with the managing editor etc. Then the contract negotiations. Then it goes in the editing queue and then the edits and cover art and ARCs sent out, etc. 

With smaller publishers, this would be shorter once a piece is accepted. But think how long a piece sits in the queue to get a first read (the submission package) and then a full read, before a decision is made.

Here's a quote from the managing editor at my publisher in an interview I did with Mythic Scribes: Getting Published in the Fantasy Genre 
“_The vast majority of the submissions we receive are perfectly good books. The authors are competent, and the stories are fine. That’s the problem… they’re just fine. Due to the unique elements and creative twists you put into the book, *Flank Hawk *stood out as original and a book that I felt could find an audience in a crowded genre._”

Publishers _are_ looking for something fresh. But what that is and their method can be just as varied as their submission standards/guidelines (one of your rant subjects below).



Guy said:


> "A writer should be qualified to write the book." Kirstie Alley's diet book is conclusive proof this claim is pure, unadulterated Grade A B.S. Ditto those relationship books written by celebreties with multiple divorces behind them. What's next, a book of etiquette by Kanye West? And exactly what qualifies someone to write fantasy, anyway? We're making up entire worlds, for heavens sake. What formal qualifications do you need? What qualified Tolkein to write about hobbits, elves, dwarves, and orcs? What does a writer put on his resume, something like "To research my story I channeled the ghost of Homer and he told me just how to do it?" WTF?



Truthfully, I've not seen this request very often except for nonfiction. With this, if you're going to write a self-help book, being a licensed therapist, or a book on the history of the War of the Roses, being a history professor, makes a difference.  Maybe in certain subgenres of mystery (such as police procedural) it helps to be an active or retired law enforcment official.



Guy said:


> It sure would be nice if the industry could standardize synopses. Some publishers want one page, others will accept synopses with double digit page numbers. Further complicating the issue are those publishers who don't specify. So here I've written both short and long synopses and I have no idea which one I should submit. Is a little standardization too much to ask?



It would be handy and easier on the writer trying to break in, but just like each writer has their own method of writing and storytelling, each publisher has devised what works best for them and their editorial staff.  The big fantasy publishers that accept unsolicited manuscripts generally get thousands in their slush pile a year. Small presses, fewer but they also have fewer on the editorial staff and fewer publication slots.

Standardization makes their system run more smoothly...and in truth, reading slush isn't on the top of an editor's list of things to do. Best not to annoy them by doing your own thing--it'll hurt your chances.



Guy said:


> Well, like I said, the frustration has been churning in my gut for some time, now. I know I'm whining and some of my complaints are irrational, but I had to get it out.



I think you'll find that you're hardly alone in these. Until you're like Terry Brooks or Stephen King and can sell a manuscript in a phone call or brief proposal, you'll have to go through the hoops.  If you do have a good relationship with a publisher (once one accepts one of your works) and if sales are good, the hoops to get the next project are fewer and less rigid.

Hang in there and do what it takes. It's hard, but that in itself lessens the serious competition.

Terry


----------



## Philip Overby (Aug 24, 2011)

@Xanados:  Creative juices ooze out of internet forums?  Ha, and may I repeat, ha ha.  I think this forum is an exception because there are a lot creative people here.  Yet looking for sophistication on the internet is like looking for filet mignot on a McDonald's menu.  

Also just because people like different stuff doesn't mean they're mindless.  I don't like Twilight either, but I know smart people that like it.  They also like Victorian period literature.  So who cares?

Ok.  Rant over.  New rant below.

Back to the original point.  The publishing industry doesn't care about if your story was a well-crafted opus.  They care if it's going to make money.  The publishing industry is like every other industry.  You have big time money makers and you have street artists.  Then mid-level authors and everyone in between best-seller and starving artist.  And the internet has given thousands of "street artists" the capability to reach a larger audience.  Some are successful at this method and others get lost in the mire of the overcrowded blogs, distractions, and cat videos of the web.  The trend toward self-publishing will probably increase either because writers want to cut out the middleman or they aren't good enough to go the traditional route.

The death of book-sellers (Borders, Barnes and Noble) will probably increase.  Therefore the traditional publishing industry will probably shrink as well.  Meaning lesser known writers won't get picked up.  Meaning more writers will turn to the Wild Wild West that is the internet to spew forth whatever they want, whether it's the next Moby Dick or the next fart joke.

So my suggestion is to follow whatever arcane, draconian rules publishing companies give you for margins, synopses, or any other bizarre crap they may want.  If they want you to write your manuscript on a hobo's napkin, do it.  Like Terry above says, jump through the hoops.  Because if you don't, hungrier people will.


----------



## Xanados (Aug 24, 2011)

Phil, let me just elaborate further so that I may enlighten you. I only browse professional 3D Art and Technical Support forums. 

"I haven't been on a single forum in my life that was mindless entertainment.”

Implies that I have not been on a forum where nonsense and buffoonery has been the case, ever. I'm sorry that you inflicted yourself with the childish banter of Family Guy, Twilight and Habbo Hotel forums, so that it stained your view of what real forums are.

That is all.


----------



## Philip Overby (Aug 24, 2011)

What is Habbo Hotel?  I wasn't angry.  Just trying to make a valid point which apparently made you angry.  I'm trying to stay on topic.  You sort of sound like you're trolling, that's why I'm a bit confused.  Fantasy writing IS entertainment.  Maybe not all of it's mindless, but some of it is.  We have varying opinions.  No need to get bent out of shape.

Back on topic: More on publishing.  

I used to work for a small press so I have an idea how it feels to work on the other end.  Writers are cranky creatures.  They don't like to be ignored or feel like their stories are so awesome and "you just don't get it."  There is a market for everything.  Let there be a market for everything.  Why not?  But you have to find the right market.  If one publisher "doesn't get it" then another probably will.   Persistence and dedication are paramount when you're a writer.


----------



## Xanados (Aug 24, 2011)

Phil the Drill said:


> What is Habbo Hotel?  I wasn't angry.  Just trying to make a valid point which apparently made you angry.  I'm trying to stay on topic.  You sort of sound like you're trolling, that's why I'm a bit confused.  Fantasy writing IS entertainment.  Maybe not all of it's mindless, but some of it is.  We have varying opinions.  No need to get bent out of shape.


By laughing* at my claim I simply had to inform you that not all forums are as you think. That also made me think that you've been inflicting yourself upon visiting "immature" forums. Trolling? I'm not trolling. I'm speaking sense. 

*Your laughing implied that you were not ready to accept my claim at all. It came out a bit rude.

This is trivial. I'm not trolling and I hope you can see my reasoning. Let's move on.

Good day.


----------



## Ravana (Aug 24, 2011)

Xanados said:


> Hello, Lotus. I've come to tell you that your post was the longest sentence I've ever read.



Really? Obviously, you haven't taken the time to delve through my posts.…


----------



## The Blue Lotus (Aug 25, 2011)

Ravana said:


> Really? Obviously, you haven't taken the time to delve through my posts.…



ROFL, at least I am in good company!


----------



## Allyssianne (Sep 11, 2011)

I've been trying to get a story published for about a year and having gone through nearly every agent in the book, I've given up on it and buried my nose in writing another book in the hope that this one will work.  Most of the time it's 'thank you for submitting your manuscript, but we do not think we can accurately represent this work' or 'this isn't what we're looking for'.  The most annoying, however, is 'you do not possess the necessary qualifications/experience'.  I'm seventeen, writing for teenagers...  Experience?  Ok, so I haven't done a university degree in creative writing, but I've still passed exams in English, (such as IGCSE). 

It's annoying...  Sympathies to anyone who's been rejected by an agent!

*wanders back to her current writing*


----------



## Xanados (Sep 12, 2011)

Allyssianne said:


> I've been trying to get a story published for about a year and having gone through nearly every agent in the book, I've given up on it and buried my nose in writing another book in the hope that this one will work.  Most of the time it's 'thank you for submitting your manuscript, but we do not think we can accurately represent this work' or 'this isn't what we're looking for'.  The most annoying, however, is 'you do not possess the necessary qualifications/experience'.  I'm seventeen, writing for teenagers...  Experience?  Ok, so I haven't done a university degree in creative writing, but I've still passed exams in English, (such as IGCSE).
> 
> It's annoying...  Sympathies to anyone who's been rejected by an agent!
> 
> *wanders back to her current writing*


Er, okay...I'm eighteen and I wouldn't even dream of sending anything in to a publisher. Are you crazy? Be realistic. You're 17, of course they're going to reject you. I'm going to start looking to be published when I have enough life experience, in my twenties.

Some people haven't even finished school at that age (I've been out of school for almost 2 years, now) and your activley looking to be a published writer, complaining that you're getting rejected all the time?


----------



## RedRidingHood (Sep 12, 2011)

Publishing is hard. It's best if an agent approaches you. Try submitting short story versions of your project to magazines and contests. Also, be sure you have a solid query letter. They want to know who this book will appeal to and what it's about. Finally, if you send in a manuscript, they will focus on the first fifty pages. If they are drawn in, then they'll read more, but you'll at least get a letter encouraging you to keep working, if not an offer to publish.

It's extremely hard and it takes a lot of patience. The best you can do is keep trying and continue to work on your manuscript.


----------



## Black Dragon (Sep 13, 2011)

Xanados said:


> Er, okay...I'm eighteen and I wouldn't even dream of sending anything in to a publisher. Are you crazy? Be realistic. You're 17, of course they're going to reject you.



I wouldn't let age alone stop someone from trying.  While it is rare, it is nonetheless possible for a teenager to become a published author.  And if you experience some rejections, all the better.  Rejection can be a valuable learning experience.


----------



## Map the Dragon (Sep 13, 2011)

Black Dragon said:


> I wouldn't let age alone stop someone from trying.  While it is rare, it is nonetheless possible for a teenager to become a published author.  And if you experience some rejections, all the better.  Rejection can be a valuable learning experience.



Agreed. Work under the assumption that ALL authors will get rejected...multiple times. Learn and adapt.

There are three published novelists (with publishing firms) on this site and I believe that reading from their experiences, they (myself included) have ALL been rejected...perhaps by an agent, perhaps a short story, what have you.  Heck, JK Rowling was turned down by multiple publishing firms before someone snagged Harry Potter.

Rejection is part of the game.


----------



## TWErvin2 (Sep 13, 2011)

Unless the author tells the publisher his/her age, the publisher will have no clue. Most communication, and especially initial communication, is electronic (email). The writer's work will be accepted or rejected based on its quality and if the publisher believes they can market it/make a profit.

If you're under 18, signing a contract may be less straight forward--depending on the state(s)/locality involved. Minors are not always able to enter into a legal/binding contract. However, if you're 17 and writing...it's going to take a year at least to:
--finish the work and get it into good enough shape to submit to publishers (partials and full manuscript)
--work it's way through the slush pile(s)
--be accepted--then you can find an agent/attorney to assist you with the legal concerns, but here a literary attorney might be better.

Even looking for an agent--querying, sending partials, manuscripts etc. can take quite a while.

Just my two cents.


----------

