# Cover desperately needs advice



## Caged Maiden (Mar 16, 2014)

Hi Scribes.  I was only going to talk about my book cover after it was complete, but I came to a point where I'm just not sure.

My book cover is a brick wall with two large windows and between them, stands a skull sculpture with a plaque.  On the right side of the skull plaque, a man is leaning against a wall.  Now... here's my question... It occurred to me to place a sword leaning against the wall next to him.  But in the book, the character isn't a swordsman.  I mean, he knows how to use it, but isn't known for his sword skills.  I should mention the front cover will cut off just past the skull plaque and the left window is actually on the back cover.

Basically... here are my options:


Put the sword in because it might intrigue certain people and give a little more of a clue what the book is about (he's wearing a 1570's Italian doublet, so the sword would match that time period).  And not worry that the character only uses a sword a few times. 
Leave the sword out of the picture but create it on another piece, thereby allowing it to be digitally added later if need be (still not worrying whether it's really applicable to the character). 
Forget the sword entirely and rely on the other elements to intrigue the reader (basically don't mislead the reader into thinking the MC is a swordsman). 

I know this sounds like a petty detail and it IS.  But still... I want to understand more about cover art and how best to accomplish my goals before I put too much more work into this.  I really don't want to screw it up.  I probably will anyways because I really don't know what I'm doing.

So... if you picked up a book and on the cover, there was a guy standing between two windows, next to a skull plaque... would it be more intriguing with a sword or would it already appear interesting?


----------



## Ruby (Mar 16, 2014)

Hi Caged Maiden, I saw the early stages of your painting on Facebook and I thought it was brilliant. The hero looked very Romantic and it had a Gothic vibe with the ornate windows etc. I just tried to have another look on your page but couldn't find it.

The bottom line is, of course, that it will be your decision whether to add a sword or not, but I thought it was fine as it was.
(I don't know if that helps!)


----------



## The Blue Lotus (Mar 16, 2014)

I have seen it as it goes from the start, to what you have now. 
Honestly, I'd leave it as is. If you really wanted to add a sword later you can, but if you add it now and end up hating it, it will take hours of work to remove it. Won't it?

Just my two cents.


----------



## e r i (Mar 16, 2014)

I'm one of those people who really dislike it when there is a mismatch between what is on the cover and what the story is actually about. If the sword was placed prominently on the cover, next to the character, I would feel the implication is that it's an important item for the character. I would go with option 3. (But it would be nice to see this WIP picture here if we are allowed to! Seeing what you mean may sway my opinion, but from what you wrote, I'd say option 3  )


----------



## psychotick (Mar 16, 2014)

Hi,

I have difficulty comenting without seeing the image. However, given that he's of that time and oes use a sword from timeto time, why not have the sword on his hip? It would seem the logical choice. Having it resting on the wall beside him seems odd and also makes the sword more of an important cover element whereas I think you just want it to be there but not dominate.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## The Blue Lotus (Mar 16, 2014)

The pic is on her author fb pg.   Just look for A. Howitt.


----------



## TWErvin2 (Mar 16, 2014)

Covers should be focused on giving the potential reader a feel for the novel and its contents. Keeping accurate to character where you can is good, but the overall impression is probably more important. 

The cover is a marketing tool more than it is an introduction or accurate portrayal of the contents. Thus, if the sword helps to reflect the novel's contents and overall direction, and would attract potential readers, then keep it.


----------



## Caged Maiden (Mar 16, 2014)




----------



## Caged Maiden (Mar 16, 2014)

Here's the picture.  It's not finished obviously, so please view it as a work in progress.  The shadow is the sword and its shadow on the wall, but that is where I thought to put it.  Again, the front cover will cut off on the other decide of the skull plaque, the title going above it and my name at the bottom.  I didn't want to show you guys an unfinished painting, but I guess there's no way to avoid it at this point.  A picture really does say more than my description.  

Thank you for all the responses, I hope the picture will help solidify the image in your minds at least.  My concern is mostly over things like the sword leaning against the wall.  Maybe it's because I'm a fencer and we often store our swords like that, but will a reader wonder why it isn't in his hand?  I added it because I didn't want it seen as an aggressive cover, but I think the element of showing a weapon not in use tells that there will be some swordplay in the novel.  

Now, is it enough to have a broody guy on the cover, or does it take it a step further to hint there is violence?  I'm not sure.  In fact, i'm not even sure this type of cover would be eyecatching or even satisfy a reader in any way.  Any and all comments are welcome.  I'm perfectly happy scrapping this 15 hours of work and starting over, really.  But I'll probably save it because I like it.  Just it doesn't have to ever be seen if it's awful.

Please help me, I have never done this before.


----------



## The Blue Lotus (Mar 16, 2014)

Caged Maiden said:


> Here's the picture.  It's not finished obviously, so please view it as a work in progress.  The shadow is the sword and its shadow on the wall, but that is where I thought to put it.  Again, the front cover will cut off on the other decide of the skull plaque, the title going above it and my name at the bottom.  I didn't want to show you guys an unfinished painting, but I guess there's no way to avoid it at this point.  A picture really does say more than my description.
> 
> Thank you for all the responses, I hope the picture will help solidify the image in your minds at least.  My concern is mostly over things like the sword leaning against the wall.  Maybe it's because I'm a fencer and we often store our swords like that, but will a reader wonder why it isn't in his hand?  I added it because I didn't want it seen as an aggressive cover, but I think the element of showing a weapon not in use tells that there will be some swordplay in the novel.
> 
> ...


Again I say I like it. Not so much the sword, but we talked about that and it really is your call.


----------



## TWErvin2 (Mar 16, 2014)

How well will the back of the cover book teaser and any blurbs show with the trellis window covering a good portion of that side?


----------



## psychotick (Mar 17, 2014)

Hi,

Thanks for that. I like the graphic but have some issues. First the image is far too broad for its height for a book cover. It needs some serious cropping. Second if he's not a swordsman as in that's not the fous of his story, but he does carry a sword because its fairly much expected, put it on his hip. That way it's there but it's not the focus of the image which is instead him. Also I don't know if it's intended but that's not a fencing sword. It's either a broadsword or a bastard sword though the hilt guard suggests maybe an epee. As for the guy, I suspect you wanted him sort of brooding - which he is - but it also looks as though he's hunched forward which I suspect isn't intended. Lastly I'd up the brightness and colour contrast a bit to give the image more visual impact. Book covers are a type of art where the reader has to be grabbed in a second or two. And while pastel tones look great, they don't have that impact.

Hope that helps.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## psychotick (Mar 17, 2014)

Hi,

Ooh - just reading TWE's post if that's supposed to be the entire front and back cover as one graphic ignore everything I said about it's dimensions.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## Caged Maiden (Mar 17, 2014)

here is a better view of the front and back.  I can't get the text to load on these photos, but I'm emailing them to you, Terry.  THis will give you a better view of what I intend for the back cover, but yes, it wraps around.







[/URL][/IMG]
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	





[/URL][/IMG]


----------



## Caged Maiden (Mar 17, 2014)

to address the sword, it has two shadows behind it (making the blade look broad) and it will be an Italian Renaissance appropriate blade, but right now, it's a shadow of gray paint so I can erase it if I hate it.   I tried to show the cropped version, but I can't show the actual document because a document can't be pasted.  I can only email it, but it shows how the back blurb fits over the window (covering 3 hours of my painting) but it looks good and the window sticks out around it just enough to  be interesting background but not overwhelmeing.

I don't want to do the sword at his hip if it's avoidable, because then I might as well just remove it.  Which is really what this thread is about.  Sword or no sword?  Because I just got a silly notion in my head to have him leaning against the wall with a sword next to him, thinking it might say more about the book.  Honestly, I'm totally okay with this being a terrible example of cover art and simply scrapping the whole thing and just using a written-upon parchment maybe stabbed with a dagger and bearing blood droplets.  That might be a really good cover, too.  I just wanted to give it a go, after finding that photo of that wall.  

So... really, I appreciate your concerns over color, but this has not been digitally altered at all.  It's literally a painting as seen from my kitchen table in poor lighting, with my digital camera.  I plan to hand it over to photoshop friends next and see how they can improve upon the original painting.

So yeah... if I've wasted 15 hours of my life painting this... I'm pretty okay with that.  But I appreciate all feedback on structure, perspective, composition, and content. That's kinda what I'm trying to get a grasp of.  Does the picture look like a cartoon?  Is it what someone might see on a cover?  Is it simply too amateurish to even consider?  These are kinda the things I can't answer at all for myself.  

 If anyone would prefer to see it put together, I'm happy to email the test one.  I think it looks miles better than just the photo, but I can't post a word doc here unfortunately.  I'm trying to learn what makes a good cover and honestly, I'm not deluding myself that I'm qualified to make one.  Just wanted to try it and if it sucks, that's okay.  But feedback will help me to at least make it as good as possible and have something worth considering in the end hopefully.  I'm torn between submitting or self-publishing right now and while i think I'll check out a few agents before throwing in my hat and doing it alone, I want to have my backup plan well sorted before it comes into play. 

Thanks everyone!!


----------



## e r i (Mar 17, 2014)

Whether or not you want the sword, I still think depends on what precisely you want to flag to the reader. A sword flags many things, and to my mind, having that sword indicates: adventure, danger, violence to come, fighting. And yes, I would infer that he is a swords man. 

When I see this picture, I see "intrigue in a mediterranean-esque city", flagged by the skull, the dark clothes of the character, and his general 'don't come near me' demeanour. The fact that it's a very still picture (i.e. no dynamic movements or ominous shadows) suggests intrigue, and because it's such a still picture, the sword really adds the adventure, fighting etc. I mentioned above. At least this is the way I interpret the image. (I personally love the stillness of the picture, and how it lets you focus on the intricacies of the marble (?) skull feature and window decor etc. I personally like that it looks like he's standing in broad daylight because it adds to the intrigue, and it gives me a sense of the setting's climate. I'm not sure if that's what you're going for though.)

And maybe it's just me, but you haven't told us what exactly you want to communicate in this cover! What is the key thing and/or vibe you want to communicate? Is showing location and character all you want to do with this cover? What is the purpose of the cover? Did you want to communicate a really clear vibe as well? Because the struggle you're having over the sword suggests to me you haven't quite decided that key concept you want to communicate is. Identifying that and spelling it out really clearly might make your decision re: the sword easier?


----------



## Ruby (Mar 17, 2014)

Hi Caged Maiden, first there's no way you've 'wasted 15 hours' of your life painting this. Everything we do in life has an intrinsic value and it's probably helped you envisage the scene and the character. I like to know what my characters look like and always draw them. I wish modern books had illustrations as in centuries ago.

I find your painting beautiful and I'm very intrigued by the pose and stance of your central character. When I look at the painting I wonder who he is and what's worrying him. (Btw who is he and what's troubling him?  )

I looked at the painting again yesterday on your Facebook page and I wasn't sure about the sword. Putting it where you have makes it the focal point of the picture: whereas previously I looked at the man, now my eye was drawn to the sword. Of course, this may be what you intended.

If I saw this cover, I would want to read the book!


----------



## Caged Maiden (Mar 17, 2014)

Wow... that's an awesome observation!  Thank you so much for taking such a close look.

Okay, let me try to answer your questions.  I really appreciate insight into this because those are exactly the questions I (as the writer and now the painter) can't answer for myself... how it makes me feel.

So... I was actually going to put a prostitute and her male counterpart mercenary on the cover because I thought they had an interesting dynamic.  But I have five main characters to this book and one of my friends said, "Oh, you HAVE to put this one guy on the cover." so I did.  Her justification was that he was the glue that held the story together, and really... she's right.  That this story is about two separate groups of people, and he's the thing in the middle.

The story is set in a parallel to 1576 Venice.  The wall is an actual wall from Venice and the skull plaque is a celebration of the Day of the Dead there.  Wish I was more original, but after seeing that photo... all my previous notions about maybe showing canals or the doge's palace in the background, went out the window and all I could think about was the skull wall.  So in my city, the government and Church are at odds, and the MC on the cover is trying to enact social reform by playing both sides and basically exposing church corruption to get the government's laws to change.  The book doesn't contain any soldiers or armies, this is a battle fought in the senate house and back rooms of opium dens.  My MCs are criminals and deviants, each with their own reason to want to see the antagonist's downfall.  Most of the story is about their struggle to get along, with the main plot moving slower, as they try to gain the upper hand and all the while, have their eyes on each other.  There's a rat in their organization and people are in danger.  

So... I'm not really that in love with showing a piece of Venice, but I felt the chunk I stole was small enough most people wouldn't notice it's connection.  Also, I used his clothing to convey the time period.  I'm a fencer and I've done a bit of sword research... I could use the sword to also convey his time period.  

I don't really have words to describe what I'm trying to convey, but I can try to make sense of my feeling.  First and foremost, the MC shown is a normal guy.  He's not brawny, or handsome, or special in any way.  He's a lawyer and a pawn for the corrupt church official and to say he's upset is an understatement.  He's cornered, threatened, paranoid, and afraid.  One part of him wants to do whatever it takes to keep people happy and remain breathing, and another part of him wants to rebel against his perceived helplessness and gut the man who has him backed into a corner.  But he can't... or two years of planning goes down the drain.  I want to convey a normal guy... not a half-dressed stud muffin (which I considered because this book has a fair amount of romance in it) or something specifically character-based like say, four of the characters overlapping in a collage of sorts, but not interacting.

My main character is actually the wife of the guy on the cover, but I didn't want to put a woman on the cover, lest the book be viewed as too much of a romance novel (which is tough because I have a love story central to the book, but there's a lot more than just that one thing).  So I picked this character because I only have three male Mcs and the other two are more minor roles.  The swordsman one doesn't make sense on the cover (unless I showed him being hung on the gallows because that's the only way a reader might identify him as the guy on the cover) and the other doesn't make sense without the prostitute with him.  So that's how I chose who to put on the cover, then I had to think about how I wanted him to look and other than always being afraid my people look cartoony, I'm pretty happy with his image. 

The architecture is important in that the city is based off a real one and I don't want iconic buildings in it, but I think Venice offered a lot of good shots that aren't too recognizable.  I fell in love with the wall though.  It also sort of matches the gritty, dismal tone of the city in the book.

I want to convey that the city isn't important in it's peaks and spires, but in the gritty day-to-day elements (which affect my characters).  I also want to convey a sort of "Don't mess with me" feeling from the character.  Because basically, that's how he feels.  But not like a crazy person.. just like someone being made to do things that he hates.

I wanted the background bright and yes, if you look at the shadows, it's noon.  I thought even though it was bright, the effect was dramatic, in that the character is really dismal.. his dress somber... standing next to a skull plaque (in a gritty city) in the middle of the day... scowling. But i'm not really an artist and composition was never my strong suit even when I was in art class.  I'm much better at the actual brush strokes and layering paint than I am planning a painting.  I really just threw some crap together, so I could try something.  

Other than those few goals listed above, I would have to say I'm not sure what else I'm trying to convey.  I tend to look at this project differently.  For instance, I found the wall and loved it.  Then I looked at what I could do with it.  I debated which character to put with it, and began painting him as I see him... in all his moody, somber glory.  Just the reality of what "is" rather than creating a piece of art with a specific goal or focus.  I just made something I thought was true to the character and story. 

Does any of that help?  Thanks!


----------



## The Blue Lotus (Mar 17, 2014)

Caged I can rip the emailed version from the doc and resend it to you as a jpeg sometime tomorrow. If you want that is?


----------



## TWErvin2 (Mar 17, 2014)

Caged Maiden said:


> here is a better view of the front and back.  I can't get the text to load on these photos, but I'm emailing them to you, Terry.  THis will give you a better view of what I intend for the back cover, but yes, it wraps around.



Got the email. The method used to block for the text, there seems little point in even having the wrap around. It may also affect how the title/author and even the imprint logo, is placed/viewed on the spine if the book is going to be available in print as well.


----------



## Caged Maiden (Mar 17, 2014)

here's the image.  And the cover doesn't wrap around the spine, it'll be a solid color and the back and front images separated by it.







[/URL][/IMG]

So... I imagine the front cover will have better font, I just picked something but now it looks like a YA book font.  My name will be at the bottom.  Also... I put two blocks on the back cover, but I'm not sure I would use one for an author bio... so I just duplicated the text.  Probably fill in more blurb on the bottom one.  More about the story. And anyways, on a book cover, I'd probably want a smaller text.  These are the details I haven't really played with, spending my small amount of time on writing and painting the last couple weeks.

I think I'll do away with the sword since it seems most people would prefer it.  I liked your guys' interpretations without the sword better and I was even thinking myself... wouldn't it just be on his hip?  but then it will be lost in the picture.  I'll play with putting it there but I think the whole thing is better without it.  Thanks!


----------



## Caged Maiden (Mar 17, 2014)

you know... the really sucky thing about this thread, is that you all are seeing a tiny photo of a painting that's much bigger and isn't scanned or digitally done at all.  That's literally the raw photo taken in my kitchen.  The painting is 14"x20" and while a lot of that is being trimmed off in the process, it's hard to see the details right now without enlarging the photo on the screen.  Sorry for that.  

Okay, so that is the general idea, anyways.  Blocks on the back, maybe one on the front too for the title?  I guess today I'll erase the sword.  The general consensus I read is that people find the sword detracting, right?  Would it be easier to decide if you see an image of said proposed sword?


----------



## TWErvin2 (Mar 17, 2014)

While it's not 'required' in any way, author bios are usually on the inside of a novel. The extra space, like at the bottom on the back, would be commonly used for blurbs by other authors, reviewers/review sites, etc.

I am not sure why you would prefer a block, black with words on the inside, as opposed to lettering on the cover (title, subtitle--if there is one, and author. That is if I am interpreting 'block' correctly.


----------



## Devor (Mar 18, 2014)

If the man uses a sword even once in the book, then keep the sword.  It'll be in a sheathe?  You might think about moving it a touch closer to the figure.

The brightness/contrast/saturation needs to be played with, but your photoshop friends can handle that pretty easily.

The image seems a little too tall to me.  That's not a comment about the dimensions but the balance of the image.  As it stands, my eyes are being drawn immediately to the man's eyes, and it's not working.  The man's eyes are in the middle-right-side of the image, and by comparison it's empty above him.  I would try cutting a little off the top, and a sliver at the bottom, and put the title in a banner ontop of it.  Having the title laid over the image isn't going to do enough to balance that out.

For the back, I wouldn't use a direct extension of the image.  I would take the back picture, blur it a little, cut the window entirely, and lay the text in a box about where the window is.  That way you would have matching colors framing the blurb.  But the back window picture itself is a little busy and awkward, and is not compelling.




Caged Maiden said:


> here's the image.  And the cover doesn't wrap around the spine, it'll be a solid color and the back and front images separated by it.



I thought it was a good start before this point.  The blurb, font and effects here aren't working.


----------



## e r i (Mar 18, 2014)

I second Devor that the font isn't really working, and that the image is cropped in an awkward way. You have three elements to the front cover, and they aren't really harmonising. The text (too much vertical space between the two lines IMO), the man, and the skull feature. They're placed at different corners of the cover, and I'm not too sure where to look at. I would very seriously consider changing the font, and the font placement.Written across the cover instead of squishing it in an available gap (which is what it looks like at the moment).

Could I download the image and digitally scribble on top of it to show you what you mean?

Also agree with Devor that the image is 'too tall'. The image crop doesn't align with


----------



## psychotick (Mar 18, 2014)

Hi,

Now that you've explained a little bit about the plot I would suggest losing the sword completely. It gives a somewhat misleading impression of what the book's about. My main thought would be the character's expression which strikes me as basically moody or glum. I think you want to show some sort of angst. As for the day of the dead image I'd suggest that given this is more about politics, church and justice maybe some sort of florentine statue of Justitia or else a religious icon.

Another thought did occur to me but I hesitate mentioning it as it would require a completely new piture. But as he's caught between two masters, why not represent that with him as is standing there with a church icon on one side looking down and maybe Justitia on the other looking down.

As for the font it doesn't work for me - and is it a mistake or is there some reason that the back cover has two black boxes. Personally since the back cover imagery is strong I'd tend to just write straight over it so the reader can both read what's written and see the picture.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## Caged Maiden (Mar 19, 2014)

Well, the font was just something to throw in there.  I mentioned that earlier, but I guess some folks missed that.  I'm not going to create the actual thing, I'm just doing the painting.  So... shades will change, cropping can be tried a few ways, the font will not be that one, and the back is still open.  I just made the painting big enough to do a wrap around cover if needed and crop it into two separate images if that's better.  

So really...while I agree with the comments about font and even cropping, I'm truly concerned about finishing the painting.  Like... was the sword adding anything.  I guess it isn't, since most people say it's too busy or the sword is a distraction or misleading.  I guess my biggest concern was whether it needed to really match the character or whether the addition or absence of said blade was a big deal to a potential reader.

I posted a picture after it was requested, fully knowing it's a work still being painted.  Then, when comments continued to be about, "how is this gonna work?" I posted a mock up (very rough) of something close to how I see it working, but nothing even nearing set.  Please try to understand, I just want to finish my painting.  I don't care what font is on there or whether the blurb box on the back is attractive, because those things are only there to show one potential option.  It took me five minutes to throw those together to hopefully clarify the questions people were asking.  I wanted to not waste their time in giving wordy answers when a picture would be easier.  This is not a cover I plan to publish with the book.  It is an image, a painting I am going to use to make a cover if it comes to self-publishing (in which case, there will only be a back cover if I make print books).  Please help me determine whether the image (not necessarily those dimensions I selected for this test run) is appropriate.  Does the sword attract the eye or does it detract from the figure?  Is the image too cartoony?  I'm actually thinking of cutting the right side of the image halfway through the window, So I'm not sure why I didn't do that on this image.  It's honestly just a test because in my original post, I described the things I needed to and a photo was requested.  For good reason!  It's hard to develop an image in your mind if all you get to go on is a description.  Who knows what images my description led to.  It was probably not what the actual one is.  So thank you very much for all the wonderful suggestions, but I'm feeling a little discouraged with the focus leading away from the motivation I need to finish the painting and heading more into the realm of why the fake test one isn't awesome.  It isn't awesome because it's nothing but a general idea of how a 14"x20" painting can become a book cover.  That was all this image was meant to convey, not a font I desired or even a solid concept of where to crop.  Please help me finish the painting by letting me know what you think of the perspective, with or without the sword.  It really helped me when people told me what the image conveyed to them.  I've got five to seven hours left and then I'm hoping the image will be finished and really nice.  But until then, this is what I have to work with and I apologize if my fake test example caused confusion.  It is like a novel outline... nothing more.  It will not be used in any way for a final example.  Thank you!


----------



## The Blue Lotus (Mar 19, 2014)

Caged Maiden said:


> Well, the font was just something to throw in there.  I mentioned that earlier, but I guess some folks missed that.  I'm not going to create the actual thing, I'm just doing the painting.  So... shades will change, cropping can be tried a few ways, the font will not be that one, and the back is still open.  I just made the painting big enough to do a wrap around cover if needed and crop it into two separate images if that's better.
> 
> So really...while I agree with the comments about font and even cropping, I'm truly concerned about finishing the painting.  Like... was the sword adding anything.  I guess it isn't, since most people say it's too busy or the sword is a distraction or misleading.  I guess my biggest concern was whether it needed to really match the character or whether the addition or absence of said blade was a big deal to a potential reader.
> 
> I posted a picture after it was requested, fully knowing it's a work still being painted.  Then, when comments continued to be about, "how is this gonna work?" I posted a mock up (very rough) of something close to how I see it working, but nothing even nearing set.  Please try to understand, I just want to finish my painting.  I don't care what font is on there or whether the blurb box on the back is attractive, because those things are only there to show one potential option.  It took me five minutes to throw those together to hopefully clarify the questions people were asking.  I wanted to not waste their time in giving wordy answers when a picture would be easier.  This is not a cover I plan to publish with the book.  It is an image, a painting I am going to use to make a cover if it comes to self-publishing (in which case, there will only be a back cover if I make print books).  Please help me determine whether the image (not necessarily those dimensions I selected for this test run) is appropriate.  Does the sword attract the eye or does it detract from the figure?  Is the image too cartoony?  I'm actually thinking of cutting the right side of the image halfway through the window, So I'm not sure why I didn't do that on this image.  It's honestly just a test because in my original post, I described the things I needed to and a photo was requested.  For good reason!  It's hard to develop an image in your mind if all you get to go on is a description.  Who knows what images my description led to.  It was probably not what the actual one is.  So thank you very much for all the wonderful suggestions, but I'm feeling a little discouraged with the focus leading away from the motivation I need to finish the painting and heading more into the realm of why the fake test one isn't awesome.  It isn't awesome because it's nothing but a general idea of how a 14"x20" painting can become a book cover.  That was all this image was meant to convey, not a font I desired or even a solid concept of where to crop.  Please help me finish the painting by letting me know what you think of the perspective, with or without the sword.  It really helped me when people told me what the image conveyed to them.  I've got five to seven hours left and then I'm hoping the image will be finished and really nice.  But until then, this is what I have to work with and I apologize if my fake test example caused confusion.  It is like a novel outline... nothing more.  It will not be used in any way for a final example.  Thank you!




The work you have done is very nice, maybe it will work for what you want, maybe not. There is absolutely no need to feel poorly about it either way!

Don't change the concept simply because some people were unable to grasp the concept. At least not yet. Finish the painting, allow the photo fixers to have their way with it, sleep on it for a bit and then make a decision.
 If nothing else you will have a wonderful print of the painting you worked so very hard on. 
I wish I had one tenth the talent that you do!

I guess the question is, how do you feel about the sword? If you like it keep it, if not then ditch it.


----------



## Ruby (Mar 19, 2014)

Hi Caged Maiden, oh dear, that's the problem with asking people's opinions! 

There's the famous saying: "You can't please everyone so you may as well please yourself," and also, "I know nothing about Art, but I know what I like!"

I like your painting a lot. When I first saw it in the early stages on Facebook I thought it had the "wow" factor (and still do!) Mind you, I projected onto the main character that he was some kind of romantic lead. But now I can see he has a troubled expression and the skulls on the walls also convey a disturbing message.

I actually don't think you should do much more to the painting. Venice is a crumbling, sinister sort of city. Remember the horror of Du Maurier's, "Don't Look Now", the book and the film. 

I think the charm of the painting is in its pastel shades, the impressionistic quality of the brush strokes on the walls and the enigmatic central dark male figure.

Re: the question of the sword, why not put it on the back cover and/or inside on the title page? Or, even on the spine?

It's very easy for us creative people to get disheartened. We all have good and bad days when we review our artistic/literary creations.

You have to believe in yourself and your talent.


----------



## Devor (Mar 19, 2014)

When curators in a museum hang a painting on the wall, they line up the middle of the painting with the height of the eyes of the average person entering the museum.  If you take the painting you have and hang it on a wall, it'll look great, because the focus is in the middle, on the character's face, and that's exactly where it's supposed to be.  Finish the image - it's a nice painting.

Cover art is a little different.  Marketing principles are a little different than those of raw art.  From a marketing perspective, we don't want someone to see the whole image at once.  We want someone's eyes to quickly follow a specific path through the image, to convey a message that grows each step of the way.  People's eyes want to move in a path that's similar to how we read.  It's left-to-right, top-to-bottom, which translates to a path that looks something like a tilted Z.  You want the focus of the elements on your cover, including the art and the titles and the author's name, to create an eye tracking pathway following those principles.

So for marketing, your painting as it is is too tall.  The focus of the image doesn't follow a good path.

The thing is, that's also pretty fixable.  So much so that I would do it for you if I could get any time on my desktop (bleh).  It would be an easy matter of sliding the top part of the window down half an inch and recropping it for a different balance, plus tinkering with the colors.  That's 5-10 minutes in photoshop.  Alternative fixes are just as easy.  Although as I said before, I would put the title in a banner on top, which is a little more work.  Finding the right font is honestly the hardest part for someone who doesn't have experience with these things.

So finish the painting, and don't let a few details about laying out the cover discourage you from finishing your artwork.

Whatever happens it's not a waste of time and you should finish.  I was reading the other day about a strategy for becoming a successful person, and the advice was to form an addiction to that sensation you feel when you finish something.  Remember that feeling, embrace that feeling, and shoot for it.


----------



## e r i (Mar 20, 2014)

Caged Maiden: Ah, ok. Your original post was about the presence/absence of the sword, but then there were some new comments instructions in later posts so I guess I got confused. My opinion still stands regarding the sword (it flags certain things, whether you want to communicate that or not is up to you), and my impression of the image is obviously still the same too. The painting is a fine piece, and you shouldn't feel discouraged at all! And I don't think you should ever think of it as a waste of time even if you don't end up using it as a cover. Finishing a painting is no mean feat.


----------



## Caged Maiden (Mar 20, 2014)

Okay... So I'm gonna leave out the sword.  I wasn't sure what it conveyed, but I want the cover (if I use this painting to self-publish) to let the reader know it's a sort of gritty, real book, not a typical (?) fantasy story with dragons and wizards.  The main story happens all within this one city and the character in the image IS actually a romantic lead, but the story is so much more than  love story... it's about characters' struggles and he's just the one in the middle of it all.  Thanks for understanding I'm not a photoshopper.  I'm just a writer who happens to have been a painter many years ago (like 15, haha).  I have looked at a bunch of covers and while I enjoy digital art, I'm so much more fond of brush strokes because it's how I relate to feelings... through an artist's color choices and that little bit of them self they leave upon the page int he form of paint blobs.

I'm absolutely going to finish.  I mean... what's five or so more hours of time?  Right?  I just wanted to make sure the sword either fit in or that if I took it out, I wasn't shooting myself in the foot by having a cover that was boring.  I don't want the picture to look like a mediocre painted did it cheap and quick (though I am a mediocre artist and i did it quick and free... well for about $8... but you get the point).  

I'm mostly concerned that it might appear sort of a YA impression like the Harry Potter covers or something.  I want the art itself to have a certian sophistication whether that be more shading or whatever, to project a professional feel.  Again, cropping aside because I won't be doing those things until the painting is finished.  When I get it all finished, I'll put a final image up of just the painting and then I'll send it out for the final stages (scanning, cropping, editing, etc.).  Actually, I hate the font.  I just selected one I thought would be easy to read, but when it was on there, Blue Lotus copied the document image and now I can't change the font without starting over.  Which... isn't time well spent at this point.   

Thanks for the comments.  Anything else you guys think about the image itself is always welcome.  If I get to it, I might try the other painting (with the Mercenary and courtesan) just to see how I like that, too.  BUt I really concur that putting this particular guy on the cover makes more sense.  

My original cover was a Tuscan manor and garden... which is the opening setting for the female lead (who marries this guy) and i might try that one, too.  It's hard to figure out what exactly to put on the cover.  

Did anyone think it sounded like a better cover, to have a letter impaled on a desk with a dagger with blood drops on it?  Or is that sort of thing overdone?


----------



## The Blue Lotus (Mar 20, 2014)

Caged Maiden said:


> ...(though I am a mediocre artist and i did it quick and free... well for about $8... but you get the point).
> 
> I'm mostly concerned that it might appear sort of a YA impression like the Harry Potter covers or something.  I want the art itself to have a certian sophistication whether that be more shading or whatever, to project a professional feelActually, I hate the font.  I just selected one I thought would be easy to read, but when it was on there, Blue Lotus copied the document image and now I can't change the font without starting over.  Which... isn't time well spent at this point.
> 
> ...



If you have the original docx on your pc you can still edit it. I just sent you a copy in a format that could be posted. (kinda) 

As for this "mediocre artist" stuff, I disagree! You have a style that is not seen much today and I for one love it! 

As for the other ideas that you have had and have for alternatives, paint them and see.  

I'm actually thinking I might pay you to do a simple painting for my cover art should I need to self pub. 
For now the photo that I mocked up is fine. It is just for nano so I don't really care that much, but later when it does matter, I want something the resonates with emotion and you are right digi art does not have the same depth that hand work does.


----------



## startist1 (Jun 9, 2014)

Hey there, Let me preface this by saying I am a professional illustrator and graphic designer with over 12 years of experience. My fiance' writes Fantasy fiction and is self publishing so I am getting to know the genre a bit and seeing what others are doing for cover art, before I delve into concepts for him. I completely agreed with this assessment of  having the sword on the characters hip...leaning on the will make it more prominent and thereby inconsistent with your storyline. On the hip sounds great- who doesn't love that in costuming? Otherwise I'd say leave it out.


Just saw your latest reply re: leaving it out completely now- prob a good call. Sometimes your gut instinct is the correct one. I think as far as your other ideas, this is the right choice too.


----------



## stephenspower (Jun 9, 2014)

I think the picture is great with or without the sword, which could use some blood spatter. I have two other problems, though.

1. The picture is too wide for a book cover, unless it'll wraparound, so that the plaque goes on the spine, which would be neat. It if were set crossways on a cover, there would be a ton of space above and below it, plus the guy, shrunken, wouldn't have the same brooding impact.

2. Looking at the other books on the fantasy shelf, I think the watercolors make it look too soft. Covers nowadays are photorealistic, if they didn't start as photos initially. I'm all for something that stands out, but what books do you see it sitting next to on your ideal reader's shelf and how does the illustration indicate the book should be on that shelf?


----------



## Lunaairis (Jun 13, 2014)

Now I know this was started about the sword being on the cover or not,  but I really wanted to play around with your picture and see if I could help you out with your cover. So here are some quick alternate ideas if you want any. (I've never designed a book cover before. So you can just pass right over me its all good.)
 I didn't really play with the fonts or anything and if this were to work the colors need to be a bit darker have some more saturation.


----------



## stephenspower (Jun 13, 2014)

I went back and saw that I missed how the cover would be divided between front and back, so I was wrong: that would look good, and personally I liked the sword. Lunaairis's new take is pretty sweet, but for the Harry Potter font. I'm not in love with the drop out white lettering, but the red works in contrast. The image does skew a bit YA, but the Tuscanness comes through.


----------

