# Basing Your Fantasy Culture on Real Ones....?



## celebathien

One of the questions that has bothered me regards the use of real-world cultures in what a fantasy writer chooses to write about. Here's what I mean:

I have a short story based in an unknown world that should be recognizable as that of Africa. There are lions, native people, and the like. The language should sound like something they would speak; however, where are the lines that shouldn't be crossed? Or are there any? My fear is that because I'm not of that culture, I might cause serious offense to someone from it by badly representing it. I would never want to do that. I would only want to respectfully utilize cultural elements in a well-told story. It's why I don't use tribal names like Zulu, and why I don't copy and paste the Swahili language in, and why I don't necessarily use the same names of their gods. But it does come with a price in that I feel as if I have to understand these cultures deeply in order to properly base something from them.

Is this a stupid fear of mine, or is it something that happens no matter what foreign culture you choose to base something in your story from? How does it effect worldbuilding? I'd really like to know.


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## FatCat

I'd say unless you're doing historical fiction, don't worry about it too much. It's pretty difficult to make an entire culture with no real-world influence, I'd say worry about what story your trying to tell before descending into the 'realism' of the culture you're emulating. I think that'd just be confusing, honestly.


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## Jabrosky

In the past I would often make my fantasy cultures thinly disguised, only slightly modified transplants of real ones. Nowadays I am more ambivalent about that process. I find that the more you try to make a certain fantasy culture resemble a real-world one, the less creative freedom you have when it comes to designing that culture. Very often you find yourself researching the real culture so much that you might as well be writing a historical novel.

BTW, I _love _stories with African-inspired settings and characters.


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## Feo Takahari

If you're not portraying a real culture, change it as you see fit. I'd actually recommend _against_ making it highly similar to one real culture--the differences stand out less if you mix and match.


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## Nebuchadnezzar

Robert E. Howard used to do extensive cultural and historical research to underpin his stories.  He ultimately switched to using fantasy worlds for his Conan stories, etc because he felt obligated to make his historical fiction "correct" and found that was just too much work and was cutting into his writing time.  One of the benefits of creating a fantasy world is that things are "right" if you say they're right, so in my view you should take advantage of that.


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## Devora

There's nothing wrong with using real life catalysts for your story. In fact, i'm writing a novel where the culture of the Dark Elves in it is very simliar to Edo Era Japan.


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## tlbodine

The big risk is co-opting a culture in a way that's overly simplistic or dismissive.  The thing is, if people are looking for it, they'll find that in basically anything.  See, for example, the large number of people who rail on Tolkien for the way all the bad guys invariably come from the East, are "swarthy" (aka, not white) and have culture that's decidedly not European.  The Euro-centricness of Tolkien is undebatable, but whether that makes it *bad* is something that I think only gets discussed in certain circles (and a few lit classes).  

As a rule, I'd say: Avoid making your bad guys overtly resemble any real-life groups, especially groups who are already the victims of oppression, unless you have a *very* deft hand.  

Otherwise, go nuts.  Mix and match and put together the culture you'd like, a world that suits your needs.  A few lions does not Africa make!


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## celebathien

I'll keep this in mind. I'll see if I can't post the actual short-story that I'm talking about with this to my portfolio tomorrow in fact, and see if anyone's interested in poking at it a little.


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## Mask

One thing that I'm not so keen on, is when they copy and paste a culture in fantasy works. Generally Britain or Japan.


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## The Unseemly

A little something that I would look out for is not to add unconfirmed/stereotypical ideas in your culture. You (or someone up there) mentioned lions in an "African" culture, when in fact, lions were a dangerous creature not tamed as a pet in African culture. I do suppose you get a _bit_ of leeway with fictional writing, as it is, after all, fictional, and you can invent excuses for aspects of that culture, however I'd still be careful on what sort of "stereotypes" your implying.


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## chaos-in-spades

I am doing the exact same thing, and I hope that I write it effectively. I'm aiming to explore the good and bad aspects to different civilizations as well as their mythology and religious/political beliefs and adapt it to fit within my novel. I take a lot of inspiration from them and want to pay some kind of homage to them.


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## Thom

celebathien said:


> One of the questions that has bothered me regards the use of real-world cultures in what a fantasy writer chooses to write about. Here's what I mean:
> 
> I have a short story based in an unknown world that should be recognizable as that of Africa. There are lions, native people, and the like. The language should sound like something they would speak; however, where are the lines that shouldn't be crossed? Or are there any? My fear is that because I'm not of that culture, I might cause serious offense to someone from it by badly representing it. I would never want to do that. I would only want to respectfully utilize cultural elements in a well-told story. It's why I don't use tribal names like Zulu, and why I don't copy and paste the Swahili language in, and why I don't necessarily use the same names of their gods. But it does come with a price in that I feel as if I have to understand these cultures deeply in order to properly base something from them.
> 
> Is this a stupid fear of mine, or is it something that happens no matter what foreign culture you choose to base something in your story from? How does it effect worldbuilding? I'd really like to know.



I would, first off, avoid speaking of an African culture. Africa is a huge continent, larger than Europe, China and the US combined. It is kind of useless to speak of it as if it is a country with one unified culture. There is a huge difference between the north of the continent and sub-Saharan Africa, for example, or between the Horn and the west.

That is not to say that you should not base your writing off an African culture, or even multiple. The only advice I have is: research, research, research. And look beyond Wikipedia and Unicef stereotypes.


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## Catharsis

Honestly any fantasy culture will end up being derived to an extent from cultures which exist now or existed at some point in time. You can minimize the direct relationship by staying away from any similar names and such. Most of the work I've done has been fairly eurocentric. As long as you do not pursue stereotypes of each culture however, I don't think it should be much of an issue.


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## Kit

I wanted to write a made-up culture with a few elements of ancient China thrown in.

 As time went on, I would think, "I want to add______," so I'd do a little research on ________, and where do you think it came from? China. I'd have my character eating such-and-such food, then check the internet, and guess who produces most of that food? China. I'd give my character a musical instrument to play, then do some additional research- where did that instrument originate? Yup, China. 

After having this happen *way* too often to be a coincidence, I had to just accept that I was writing ancient China.


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## Nightender

Inspiration comes from all sorts of places.  If a story is inspired by Africa, wonderful.  There isn't enough African influence in fantasy, and I welcome it.

As far as building a fantasy setting to be an exact parallel for a specific historical location, especially during a specific era, I think we should just leave that to Guy Gavriel Kay.  He's entire formula is to build magical parallels to real places and eras as settings for his tales.  Going to his extent is tricky, and I don't recommend it to anyone who hasn't done a great deal of research.

Just stick with inspiration.  I think there's a wealth of basic concepts that originate in Africa that are begging to fuel a number of stories.


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## Chessie

I think having a good base of understanding of what that civilization was like is plenty, no need to go super deep unless you want to. A lot of what the world "is" doesn't even make it into the story and its more for the author's consistency, I think. Currently, my WIP is a culture mixed of medieval Croatia, India and Alaska Native cultures. Its a crazy mix but its totally working for what I originally had in mind. I'm taking what I need from each and what FEELS RIGHT...what matches...before I go any deeper. I'd like all this mostly organized before I begin to really write the story but hey, if I need to continue doing research so be it. 

I suggest you go easy with all of this. Have fun reading about the culture(s) that interests you for your work and trust your intuition.


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## Meyer

As others have said, you need to have a strong understanding of the culture you intend to emulate or use as inspiration.  A well written and fleshed out people will be much more appreciated than a culture based only vapid stereotypes.  I think an important thing to do if using a real world culture as a source of inspiration is to not use one that is over used, such as medieval Japan.  Something that is truly alien to western or European sensibilities would be a good source.  What comes to mind is Shakespeare in the Bush and how different the Tiv's interpretation of Hamlet was from the typical understanding of it.


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## celebathien

Ahhh. I see! 

The question came up originally because of a news story from way-back, 2006 or earlier, about a teen girl from one of the more rural areas of Africa being guarded by lions until her rescuers came. She had been kidnapped and beaten and abused by a group of men who wanted to marry her, or who wanted her to marry one of them, and the lions appeared and chased them off. They then stayed by her until the group searching for her came across her and the lions retreated at that point. 

It just sounded like a story out of myth to me, and I wanted to use it in a short story. (Not using real names or anything.) I suppose that's the secondary issue I'm worried about: taking something that sounds too impossible to have really happened (but did) and making it fictional.


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## Lycan999

If you are truly worried about offending someone from the culture you are partially trying to portray from some ignorant blunder you make, the best advice I can give you is do extensive research in to the culture. But I personally do not have any problem using an existing or no longer existing culture and have found many pros to it. If a culture somewhat resembles a culture that existed in our world it can draw readers in with something that is both familiar and new at the same time. It can also give you many ideas for scenes in your story by looking at the mythology and stories told by the culture you are basing yours off of. Besides this, it is also almost impossible to write something and not have it resemble something that actually exist. Just go with it, and add your personal touch. Anyway, this is fantasy writing, not historical fiction.


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## Deleted member 2173

celebathien said:


> One of the questions that has bothered me regards the use of real-world cultures in what a fantasy writer chooses to write about. Here's what I mean:
> 
> I have a short story based in an unknown world that should be recognizable as that of Africa. There are lions, native people, and the like. The language should sound like something they would speak; however, where are the lines that shouldn't be crossed? Or are there any? My fear is that because I'm not of that culture, I might cause serious offense to someone from it by badly representing it. I would never want to do that. I would only want to respectfully utilize cultural elements in a well-told story. It's why I don't use tribal names like Zulu, and why I don't copy and paste the Swahili language in, and why I don't necessarily use the same names of their gods. But it does come with a price in that I feel as if I have to understand these cultures deeply in order to properly base something from them.
> 
> Is this a stupid fear of mine, or is it something that happens no matter what foreign culture you choose to base something in your story from? How does it effect worldbuilding? I'd really like to know.



Eddings was quoted that he used civilizations from our past as templates for the countries/civilizations/races for his Belgariad and Malloreon series.  You can see the Vikings in Cherek and Greco/Roman parts of Tolnedra.  I think this works to give an author a starting point, but unless that is where you want your setting to be, I would suggest reworking those sources to not seem to on the nose with it all.


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## Velka

I'm using the idea of Phoenician culture in my novel; seafaring trade, some of the same exports, basic government structure, geography, etc., but there's also dwarves, trolls, elves, assassin guilds and plumbing.

I think it's helpful to have something to start as a foundation, but don't let it limit you into accurate historical representation. It's your world to build as you see fit.


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## Jabrosky

I've just started a new historical fantasy titled Half-Sisters, which covers a variety of civilizations in pre-colonial Northern Africa. The Egyptians, Ethiopians, and Malians all play a primary role in what I've written so far, but the timeline and characters are all fictitious.


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## Artemadoris

Ah, I share your pain. For my story, I engaged in extensive research of early Anglo-Saxon culture, language structure, and mythology–it even spilled over into the influences of the Roman Empire before their departure. It became so labor intensive, I lost sight of my initial concept. It was 2 A.M. on a Saturday morning (I was studying Anglo-Saxon grammar for God's sake) when I decided it was best to treat my research as a tool to broaden my knowledge of a world I was using as a reference to create a believable story. I believe that has helped me focus my efforts and has helped me distinguish between creating a world and mimicking one.


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## The Afterwriter

For my own writing, I feel iffy about basing fictional cultures off of real ones because of cultural appropriation.  I recommend researching that as well just to see how many ways it can go wrong.

Do what works for you, but it helps to be careful.


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## Steerpike

The Afterwriter said:


> For my own writing, I feel iffy about basing fictional cultures off of real ones because of cultural appropriation.  I recommend researching that as well just to see how many ways it can go wrong.
> 
> Do what works for you, but it helps to be careful.



Taken in its broadest form, there are some who consider writing about any ethnicity other than one's own to be 'cultural appropriation.'

Even taking a more narrow definition, I do not intend to allow the issue to limit in any way what I write about. It's a form of political correctness, which is in term a form of censorship, that tells the writer what is supposed to be OK or not OK to write about.

This seems especially problematic in the Fantasy context, where a deep source of knowledge and information can be tapped by understanding how real world cultures have developed over time, what their practices have been, and so on.

Others may have differing views, of course


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## The Afterwriter

Steerpike said:


> Taken in its broadest form, there are some who consider writing about any ethnicity other than one's own to be 'cultural appropriation.'
> 
> Even taking a more narrow definition, I do not intend to allow the issue to limit in any way what I write about. It's a form of political correctness, which is in term a form of censorship, that tells the writer what is supposed to be OK or not OK to write about.
> 
> This seems especially problematic in the Fantasy context, where a deep source of knowledge and information can be tapped by understanding how real world cultures have developed over time, what their practices have been, and so on.
> 
> Others may have differing views, of course


I want to have conversations with you.

I agree; no world is born in a vacuum (irony intended).  If it's a form of political correctness, there is no universal list of "good versus bad," which leaves it up to individuals.  Am I right?

I definitely need to put more time into researching cultural appropriation itself; perhaps my understanding of it is inaccurate or ill-informed, seeing as I've just learned of it.  However, I've always spent far too much time on political correctness, and I doubt that will change any time soon.

Fascinating.  You bring up a good point; I'm glad I posted that.  Thanks.


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## Steerpike

The Afterwriter said:


> I definitely need to put more time into researching cultural appropriation itself; perhaps my understanding of it is inaccurate or ill-informed, seeing as I've just learned of it.



It looks like different people have pretty widely differing views of what it is, so I expect you'll find some people you tend to agree with and others you feel take things too far. An interesting topic, either way.


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## Chessie

Question: how important is it for a fantasy world to be medieval if its not urban fantasy?


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## Jabrosky

I always understood cultural appropriation to mean claiming someone else's culture or ethnicity as your own, as if you believed yourself an authentic representative of whatever culture you lay claim to. White people claiming Native American identities and making up stories about descending from "Cherokee princesses" come to mind for example.


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## Steerpike

That would make more sense, Jabrosky. But I've seen that extended to even writing about another culture. The argument goes that by writing about a culture that doesn't belong to you, you are to some extent holding yourself out as someone who is capable of representing that culture in fiction or whatever, and as the author you've had to take that culture upon yourself to write those stories or those characters. At least in many cases, it doesn't have to do with the author claiming to be something they aren't, it's merely a characteristic of the work itself. 

Needless to say, I don't agree with that viewpoint. I have representative of a variety of cultures in my work, and if someone doesn't like it for that reason, they can get bent


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## ecdavis

I think you have to also realize that many times even while researching ancient (or even modern) cultures, you will find a bunch of different experts telling you conflicting facts about the same culture.   The more ancient the culture, the more debate you'll find.   You certainly can lose the fun of your work by worrying yourself to death about making everything culturally proper.  Really, fantasy doesn't need to be historical fiction and yet there is not an author out there that hasn't let his or her bias and personal views on certain things slip into his or her work.  
Tolkien was an expert on Anglo-Saxon history and as a result greatly favored flavoring his work in that direction.   It is interesting that he was not too interested in Celtic culture at all, yet the portrayal in the LOTR movies uses a lot of Celtic elements.   Yet I know that when I first read his LOTR and Hobbit books, I didn't think 'Wow, this sure feels Anglo Saxon'.

My point is, a good story usually won't offend a reader even if things are a bit off or bias, as long as it is not a blatant insult at a culture.   If (for example) you have Native Americans saying "How!   White man speak-um with forked tongue." as they sit in the middle of a tepee in the forest, and you claim in your book, that they are Cherokee, then that would be offensive.   But a writer who respects a culture usually shows honor to it, even if he or she doesn't completely understand it and doesn't perfectly 'get it right'.   Few non-natives really understand a culture, though many 'experts' think they do.


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## Jabrosky

ecdavis said:


> If (for example) you have Native Americans saying "How!   White man speak-um with forked tongue." as they sit in the middle of a tepee in the forest, and you claim in your book, that they are Cherokee, then that would be offensive.   But a writer who respects a culture usually shows honor to it, even if he or she doesn't completely understand it and doesn't perfectly 'get it right'.   Few non-natives really understand a culture, though many 'experts' think they do.


As long as a writer characterizes people from different cultures as varied and multidimensional human beings, I would call those portrayals respectful. If nothing else, it shows the writer is cognizant of their subjects' basic humanity, which in my book is the main ingredient for inter-cultural respect.


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## Obsidian

Hi new here so I am writing a book and all of the cultures there are influenced by different African cultures. Like how Avatar the Last Airbender is influenced by different Asian and Inuit culture. Many of the different storylines and characters are based on real life people and places. The creators of the show are white however they consulted Asian experts for the making of the show that is why the Chinese in the show is actual Chinese.

I am African, Nigerian (Yoruba) to be specific and most of the themes in my book are taken from Yoruba mythology and are inspired by specific countries that are very different to each other. What you need to do is to look at some of the basic stereotypes about Africa and Africans. Is the setting of your story based on only one country or a few put together like Pan-African. Asking someone from that culture is also the way to go


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## Jabrosky

Obsidian said:


> I am African, Nigerian (Yoruba) to be specific and most of the themes in my book are taken from Yoruba mythology and are inspired by specific countries that are very different to each other. What you need to do is to look at some of the basic stereotypes about Africa and Africans. Is the setting of your story based on only one country or a few put together like Pan-African. Asking someone from that culture is also the way to go


I actually like the idea of a Pan-African civilization that mixes together different influences from throughout the continent. Of course such an undertaking would require researching multiple African societies instead of simply slapping together a few stereotypes of dubious accuracy, but if done right it could lead to an exquisite aesthetic.


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## Chessie

I like what Artemadoris said about using knowledge of the real world culture to expand on a world you are creating. I think the best place to draw inspiration is from our own human history. Its beautiful and mysterious. I don't worry about cultural appropriation, since I feel comfortable in the setting and culture I'm writing about. By the time I'm done with it, hopefully what will come across is a world that has resemblance to a world culture with a twist: 1800s Russia, meet Paul Bunyan.


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## Trick

Being nearly 100% Irish I tended early on to stick to my own culture plus that of Western Europe in general. It felt comfortable. I definitely still incorporate it in my work but it became less comfortable and more smothering and through research I have come to use elements from many cultures, some of which are far more interesting to me personally than my own. I guess I've not thought too much about offending people because I tend to never write about a culture as a whole (bad or good) but about individuals who usually don't fit the 'stereotype' of the cultures on which they're based anyway. Anyone from any culture can be bad or good. It's their personal story that concerns me. Now, tension between cultures based purely on the racial bias of characters? That is just realistic and it has entered my work. Typically that would be a villainous trait but a good character can have a reason to dislike or even hate a culture/race too, even if that is due to their own faults and failings. That sort of flaw just makes a character more human, which in some light is sad to say. The truth is not always pretty and characters should never be perfect - who'd want to read about them?


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## Tirjasdyn

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> Robert E. Howard used to do extensive cultural and historical research to underpin his stories.  He ultimately switched to using fantasy worlds for his Conan stories, etc because he felt obligated to make his historical fiction "correct" and found that was just too much work and was cutting into his writing time.  One of the benefits of creating a fantasy world is that things are "right" if you say they're right, so in my view you should take advantage of that.



Considering how much world building he did, (he wrote essays on the world he created) it looked just as complicated as the real world. 

Frankly it doesn't matter. You'll never make everyone happy. I use bits and pieces here and there and mold them together to make my world. Jacqueline Carey creates her world as an overlap of this one (you can easily pick out the cultures if you try), Piers Anthony just mapped his Xanth world onto Florida. St. James made his world to mirror 14th century Europe and only added Vampires while otherwise following the lives of historical characters exacly. De Lint created a whole city, so did Stephen King, and put it in America. Tolkien uses all kinds of Scandinavian folklore and mixed it with Anglo Saxon elements. Some fantasy is plopped into history, is put in the future (think Anne McCaffrey), some never crosses this world at all but works like cultures we know.


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## Bluesboy

I love British history and no culture intrigues me more than the early pagan Anglo-Saxons and that also requires reading up on their original Scandinavian homelands, so that extends to the Vikings as well. I love the oath-based culture, the meadhalls, the ring-giving relationships between lord and their vassals, the lust after reputation of being put into stories of valour and heroism, the cut-throat struggles of the next-of-kin after a nobleman dies and brothers, sons, cousins, all fight for inheritance and it mattered not in the slightest whether someone was bastard-born or legitimate. Their warrior culture was driven by personal charisma and how much tribute and plunder you could gain by constant raiding, which inspired warriors into following you, securing your grip on power. Their craftsmanship and art is so foreign compared to what we see in the world today that you indeed have a feeling that their culture is from another world entirely. Just look up Alfred's Jewel or the things dug up at Sutton Hoo ship burial. Marvelous.

Old English as a language fascinates me to no end, the character and place names in my world are in that language, but I have pagan Celtic-like and Slavic-like peoples in my world too, the latter two cultures being linguistically more Celtic and Slavic respectively. The mythologies and religions however, are largely different, despite having some similarities with their real world counterparts. 

The pagan Scandinavia provides a good starting point and background for creating strong female characters, because Anglo-Saxon England and Viking-age Scandinavia had women being legally on the same level with men, women didn't have to marry a man they didn't like, they could legally own a business, a property all of their own, they could make wills, if they were abused by their husband they could take the children with them and move out, being entitled to half of their husband's property, and so on. Only in the noble households were women peace-weavers. This pagan aspect of equal rights was toned down when the Anglo-Saxons were Christianised, because Church at that time supported beating of wives into obediance, preached against woman orgasm and all the other integral aspects of a religion of love and peace. 

Of course, I wanted my fantasy to be in a European medieval setting, but it took a hell of a time to find the era I liked the most, the era in which the stereotypes about the middle ages don't apply, the era that has a built-in sense of other-worldliness. In the end, I have a very strong Saxon-inspired culture, but with a lot of poetic licence that makes it something of my own.


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## studentofrhythm

I would say that it's more important for you to research the geography and the ecology of the area you want to evoke - because pre-industrial cultures are shaped so much by their physical environments.  Are you going to have the action take place in a rainforest, a savanna, a desert?  Are your characters farmers, pastoralists or hunter-gatherers?  How do they relate to other societies nearby?  What are the levels of technology and magic (how did they progress to those levels), what are the daily needs and exigencies of making a living under those conditions?  Answer those questions and you're a long way to building a culture that makes sense.  Then figure out how they regulate sex and death and you're probably close enough for rock and roll.

As far as language, since there are so many indigenous languages and language families throughout Africa you certainly don't need to copy and paste Swahili (which is a widespread trade language but only in the east).  You might not need to do any more language work than make up a few names, and a bit of browsing on Wikipedia articles about real-world languages should give you an idea of how to put together a basic naming language that has similar phonology to an African language . . .

-or not!  You could make it sound like anything, really.  As long as it doesn't sound like Anglo-Fantasese you should be just fine.

What would make such a story more convincing to me would probably be to make up as few names as possible, and use calques and such.  For example: "Three days' journey downstream was the High Waterfall, and on the plain below lived the Green Spear People.  Deft Needle knew none of their tongue, but her brothers spoke enough to haggle with them for hides and shells when they came to trade every year."

Yes, you can just use descriptive phrases or adjectives for names, because _that's where names ultimately come from_.  If a reader were to think that made your characters look or sound like American Indians, then that reader would need to learn more about the world.


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## DeathtoTrite

I'm a huge fan of history, and it comes out in my world building. I have Celtic, Altaic, Turkic, Slavic, Iranian, Greek, Italian, Dravidian, and Suomi influences. Key is

1) Don't lean on easy stereotypes. I should NOT read about some emperor of the dragon in the east, featuring Chinese-style bureaucrats.

2) Mix it up. Will it have a dominant flavor? Sure. But too much familiarity really ruins the suspension of disbelief. A good example is Mercedes Lackey's Mage Wind trilogy. Great story-teller, but the Tayledras are pretty much elves (it applies to fictional cultures too!) and the world lost its uniqueness for me.


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## ArenRax

I love to try and use Roman,spartan,greek(as a whole), and british cultures as a preset to build upon or change and you  can even use the witch scare in america(forgot the date) as a preset to throw in witch slaying(and actual witches of course) and maybe vampires, and there is always Vlad Dracul as being a template for dracula(or inspiration/ although I must admit that this is Fantasy character sort of based  of a real person......I think).
The Roman Legions, The arena, the emperor, and Senate and the way the Roman Imperials held themselves can be quite interesting.
The spartan culture of strength and the will to overcome has always been cool, ever since I learned about them.
Britain, an ancient place dating back to Roman times is always quite interesting especially over the hundreds of years.

Now I dont know everything nor do I know a lot but I use what I know in the best way I can.


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## Trick

ArenRax said:


> there is always Vlad Dracul as being a template for dracula(or inspiration/ although I must admit that this is Fantasy character sort of based  of a real person......I think).



Vlad Dracula was indeed a real person but nothing like the vampire Dracula. It is implied that they're the same person, kind of, but not definitive and that is completely a bit of Stoker's imagination. Vlad was not vampiric in any way, but he was brutal. He was also from a the same part of the world which was convenient for Stoker. The book was nearly complete before Stoker ever heard of Vlad Dracula. And technically Vlad Dracul was his dad - the a at the end makes a difference - and not the semi-partial-kind of- inspiration for the famous vampire.


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## ArenRax

Thank you! hence why I posted that i didnt know to much because truth is I dont but I can interpret and say what I still think.


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## Mythopoet

Trick said:


> Vlad Dracula was indeed a real person but nothing like the vampire Dracula. It is implied that they're the same person, kind of, but not definitive and that is completely a bit of Stoker's imagination. Vlad was not vampiric in any way, but he was brutal. He was also from a the same part of the world which was convenient for Stoker. The book was nearly complete before Stoker ever heard of Vlad Dracula. And technically Vlad Dracul was his dad - the a at the end makes a difference - and not the semi-partial-kind of- inspiration for the famous vampire.



I don't believe that's quite correct. The character of Dracula is pretty well established to be Vlad III Dracula or Vlad the Impaler who was the son of Vlad II Dracul, the first to take the name Dracul after having been invested in the Order of the Dragon. Thus Vlad III was Dracul_a_. Stoker came across the name Dracula and was intrigued by it while doing research on Wallachia and Modalvia well before the book was published and the novel clearly shows that he is familiar with Vlad III's history, as the character Dracula brags of the historical figure's exploits. Of course, at the beginning of the novel Dracula is pretending to be a descendant of Vlad III. But Van Helsing deduces that he must actually be the man himself and believes that part of the reason he became immortal is because he was such an exceptional person in life.


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## Trick

Mythopoet said:


> I don't believe that's quite correct. The character of Dracula is pretty well established to be Vlad III Dracula or Vlad the Impaler who was the son of Vlad II Dracul, the first to take the name Dracul after having been invested in the Order of the Dragon. Thus Vlad III was Dracul_a_. Stoker came across the name Dracula and was intrigued by it while doing research on Wallachia and Modalvia well before the book was published and the novel clearly shows that he is familiar with Vlad III's history, as the character Dracula brags of the historical figure's exploits. Of course, at the beginning of the novel Dracula is pretending to be a descendant of Vlad III. But Van Helsing deduces that he must actually be the man himself and believes that part of the reason he became immortal is because he was such an exceptional person in life.



"Pretty well established" by scholars who were guessing. McNally and Florescu, the most well known Dracula scholars, made this into "fact" in a book they wrote before they had ever gotten Stoker's notes which were later found and the authors took a step back from their previous claims. The book we know as "Dracula" was nearly complete when Stoker came across the name Dracula. Vlad Dracula was just a convenient character that he used as a retcon for the story and he even changed the area of the world because of what he thought was Vlad's locale and how the lore there fit better but he did not inspire the book originally, he inspired a change in it only. There isn't even proof that Stoker was aware of the first name Vlad. He also placed the count in Transylvania when Vlad Tepes was a Wallachian Voivode. 

The Count in his book was originally called Wampyr and he changed it to Dracula because he mistakenly believed that it meant Devil in the Wallachian language. 

Like I said, it is implied but it's not definitive and I meant that his relation to vampirism was entirely a bit of Stoker's imagination. When I said he was from the same part of the world I meant he was from the part of the world that Stoker preferred for the novel to take place in - He originally set it in Austria.

I've been researching Vlad the Impaler for three years.


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## Mythopoet

Unless there is a different edition of the book that was published previously to the one that I just finished reading then it is quite clear from the text that in the published book Stoker intended Dracula to indeed be Vlad III Dracula. It doesn't matter what his early notes say or what early version of the story said. In the book itself it's very clear. Obviously Stoker didn't pick Vlad the Impaler because he believed the actual historical figure had vampiric tendencies. But he was researching Wallachia and Moldavia when he came upon the name. Any writer who has been doing research mid-draft and comes across something that seems like a much better idea than what is currently in the draft knows what it's like to make such changes. The existence of an earlier version does not diminish the reality of the final work in the least.


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## Trick

Mythopoet said:


> Unless there is a different edition of the book that was published previously to the one that I just finished reading then it is quite clear from the text that in the published book Stoker intended Dracula to indeed be Vlad III Dracula. It doesn't matter what his early notes say or what early version of the story said. In the book itself it's very clear. Obviously Stoker didn't pick Vlad the Impaler because he believed the actual historical figure had vampiric tendencies. But he was researching Wallachia and Moldavia when he came upon the name. Any writer who has been doing research mid-draft and comes across something that seems like a much better idea than what is currently in the draft knows what it's like to make such changes. The existence of an earlier version does not diminish the reality of the final work in the least.



You are missing the point entirely. The post I originally responded to calls Vlad Dracul (meaning Vlad III Dracula, not his father, I assume) the template or inspiration for the vampire Dracula, which he was not. The point is not that he didn't allude to Vlad in the text or that he didn't decide they would be the same character but that Vlad did not inspire the book or the character. The character was edited to conform to Stoker's minimal knowledge of an historical character whose name has been forever tied to vampires when they, in reality, have nothing to do with each other. By that, since I need to clarify everything, I mean that the legends of strigoi in the area where Vlad lived do not mention him as a person who became a vampire but there are plenty of legends about them in general.

And you say "mid-draft" when I said nearly finished. The book was not published, obviously, but the addition of Vlad's influence was very late in the writing process. And that's why I said Vlad inspired him to change his work, not to write it in the first place. 

I am not trying to place any negative connotation on Bram Stoker, I am trying to make it clear that Vlad didn't inspire him to write a book about vampires.



EDIT:
 In re-reading my first post, I think I know the part you latched onto because it was poorly worded:



> Vlad Dracula was indeed a real person but nothing like the vampire Dracula. It is implied that they're the same person, kind of, but not definitive and that is completely a bit of Stoker's imagination. Vlad was not vampiric in any way, but he was brutal. He was also from a the same part of the world which was convenient for Stoker. The book was nearly complete before Stoker ever heard of Vlad Dracula. *And technically Vlad Dracul was his dad - the a at the end makes a difference - and not the semi-partial-kind of- inspiration for the famous vampire.*



I was explaining, in the bold text, that Vlad Dracul and Vlad Dracula are two different people, father and son; as you pointed out, the second and third of a line, and clarifying that the father was not the historical figure associated with the fictional vampire.

Lastly, you said:



> Obviously Stoker didn't pick Vlad the Impaler because he believed the actual historical figure had vampiric tendencies.



You clearly think that's obvious but the world does not. Many people believe that Vlad was/may have been a vampire, if not in the magical sense. The novel has led people to false conclusions about a real person, not that Bram Stoker intended as much nor is it his fault.


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## Zephyr

With regards to writing about a culture that is not your own, all I will say is this. Do not let your _own_ culture bias your perception of the culture about which you are writing. For instance, in the west we grow up with this idea that the strong central figure is the white, cisgender, heterosexual, middle-class male, and any deviation of that character is considered abnormal. Know that every society has its own perception of what constitutes the "average" and you should be careful not to contradict it with any bias of your own. It is indeed a tricky ground to tread.


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## Gurkhal

I always base it on real ones for simplicity and making it more complex at the same time. Essentially I don't think that a human mind can make anything as complex as what has grown up in human interaction across the generations, and thus by modelling a fictional culture on a real one I can get lots of stuff free, while at the same time allowing me to go into detail and make it more alive and consistent.


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