# Jarringly modern dialogue?



## Gryphos (May 20, 2015)

If you were reading a story set in a world with a historical aesthetic, say, 19th century-esque, would it be jarring for you to read modern-sounding dialogue. For example, with regards to a character dressed in a three piece suit and top hat...



> “You know, Mr. Stove…” The Makarlan rocked his head from side to side in thought. “Hmm, I was going to say we didn’t have to kill you, but to be honest, f*ck that shit. You’re both dead.”



And other similar patterns of speaking. Using some modern pieces of slang and interjecting things like "you know what, f*ck you" into the middle of sentences.

I know that some people read fantasy for escapism, and perhaps more antiquated dialogue adds to that, but I would say that there's something to be said for more 'real' dialogue, which the reader can easily relate to in some way.

What do you guys think?


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## BWFoster78 (May 20, 2015)

Gryphos,

I use modern slang in my epic fantasy.  Of all the decisions I've made, more people have complained about that one than any other.  Yet I have not changed my mind.

I would not use anachronisms.  For example, if rockets do not exist in your world, I wouldn't write, "Xan rocketed upward."

With that caveat, the main complaint seems to be that it pulls the reader out of the setting.

Maybe it does for some readers, particularly those who are hard core epic fantasy fans.

The advantages for me are:

1. I think it makes the writing more accessible to the average reader.
2. It makes it a lot easier for me to create my character voice.

All in all, I'm happy with my decision.


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## Svrtnsse (May 20, 2015)

I think this is the kind of thing that will seem jarring at first, but which you'll soon get used to.

Out of context, the quoted line seems like it'd be from a movie taking place sometime in the last few decades - or possibly any time in the future. This is regardless of how the character is dressed.
If, however, you establish that this is how characters speak in your setting, then I'd probably get used to it fairly soon.


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## BWFoster78 (May 20, 2015)

Svrtnsse,

Great point!  I've noticed that I tend to acclimate pretty quickly to a lot of similar kinds of things when reading.

Truthfully, I think you have two groups on this one:

1. Hard core epic fantasy readers who will not like it at all.
2. People who won't notice or won't care if they do.


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## Russ (May 20, 2015)

I don't quite fall into either of those groups.

Language is a product of environment.  If the environment you give me suits the language than I am fine.  I really wouldn't want to read a book in "old english" anyways.  If the environment you give doesn't suit the slang than I might be jarred or annoyed.

In my experience, people in three peice suits and top hats suggests something formal to me.  "F' that sh*t" doesn't strike me as formal.  Now if the character was a life long hardened criminal dressed up, I get it.  If not, I don't.


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## Devor (May 20, 2015)

It depends on the context, but I lean towards slightly old fashioned or otherwise different speech patterns.

I would not describe cursing as either "jarringly modern" or "more relatable."


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## Gryphos (May 20, 2015)

> In my experience, people in three peice suits and top hats suggests something formal to me. "F' that sh*t" doesn't strike me as formal. Now if the character was a life long hardened criminal dressed up, I get it. If not, I don't.



The character in question, while not being a criminal, isn't uptight or even that gentlemanly. He'd certainly be the type to be lax with his language.


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## Russ (May 20, 2015)

Gryphos said:


> The character in question, while not being a criminal, isn't uptight or even that gentlemanly. He'd certainly be the type to be lax with his language.



Than that would work for me.  As long as I think "that guy would speak like that" all is well.


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## Svrtnsse (May 20, 2015)

I should have mentioned this before, but I think that the most important thing to consider is if as a writer is comfortable with the language your characters are using. By this, I don't mean the contents of what they're saying, but the technical aspect of writing what they're saying.
Let your characters use a language you're comfortable writing. Don't try to force it into something you're uncertain of. Don't just throw in words because they feel old-fashioned-y. Use a language you know.


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## Incanus (May 20, 2015)

I'd find it jarring myself.

I'm pretty sure I don't understand what you mean by "something to be said for more 'real' dialogue".  If it is in any way a historical setting, or a setting similar to a different time period than now, then modern parlance would automatically be less 'real', not more.
Maybe you mean 'contemporary' instead of 'real'?  The dialogue styles of past eras are somehow not 'real'?  Yeah, I must be missing something.  Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

In any event, I think that the language of a story should be understandable to current audiences while at the same time conveying the style of the era it is set in.


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## Legendary Sidekick (May 20, 2015)

I think if you have a character with a voice you know well, you won't be thinking about how modern the character's language is. It'll be more of a "that sounds like her" vs. "she'd never say _that_."

And yeah, avoideth Ye Olde Common Tongue like the plague or other medieval disease. (Well, unless you're into that sort of thing. As you mayhaps hath guessethed, I'm not into it, so it sounds stupid, sarcastic or both when I attempt/fake it.)


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## Gryphos (May 20, 2015)

Incanus said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure I don't understand what you mean by "something to be said for more 'real' dialogue". If it is in any way a historical setting, or a setting similar to a different time period than now, then modern parlance would automatically be less 'real', not more.
> Maybe you mean 'contemporary' instead of 'real'? The dialogue styles of past eras are somehow not 'real'? Yeah, I must be missing something. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.



Yeah, contemporary's what I meant. Badly phrased on my part.


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## Gryphos (May 20, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:
			
		

> And yeah, avoideth Ye Olde Common Tongue like the plague or other medieval disease. (Well, unless you're into that sort of thing. As you mayhaps hath guessethed, I'm not into it, so it sounds stupid, sarcastic or both when I attempt/fake it.)



I once tried to write a character, in this very setting, even, who used that kind of language. I thought it would be quirky and interesting, but it ended up just sounding stiff and dull and lacking impact. Maybe it's just because I'm not experienced enough in that kind of language. Slang and swearing's what I do know.


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## Nimue (May 20, 2015)

Yeah, I think this kind of thing is fine if it fits the world and tone you're working in, but...sometimes this kind of language just comes across as _lazy_.  Not just the words, because shit has been a word forever, but the phrasing.  Why not actually sit down and consider how a 19th century gentleman would say "f*ck that shit"?  There are eloquent and non-anachronistic ways to say crude and scathing things.  I'll see if I can think of an alternate phrase, but I've seen it done, and the difference between suddenly reading "Go f*ck yourself" and "My good man, kindly bugger off." is the difference between a jarring "Where the hell did that come from?" and the startled delight of "Did he really just say that?"


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## Legendary Sidekick (May 20, 2015)

Slang and swearing's more fun. A part of me wants to write more kid-friendly works, but then there's this wonderful four-letter word I've come to know and love and use regularly since the age of seven. I feel like it's not a word I must use in my stories, but if it fits, and I'm aiming for a child audience, well… then I'm f***ed.


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## Legendary Sidekick (May 20, 2015)

Nimue said:


> Yeah, I think this kind of thing is fine if it fits the world and tone you're working in, but...sometimes this kind of language just comes across as _lazy_.  Not just the words, because shit has been a word forever, but the phrasing.  Why not actually sit down and consider how a 19th century gentleman would say "f*ck that shit"?  There are eloquent and non-anachronistic ways to say crude and scathing things.  I'll see if I can think of an alternate phrase, but I've seen it done, and the difference between suddenly reading "Go f*ck yourself" and "My good man, kindly bugger off." is the difference between a jarring "Where the hell did that come from?" and the startled delight of "Did he really just say that?"


I agree f--- that s--- is out of place in historical fiction or some other realistic setting, though even then you probably need to compromise between how people actually talked and what's accessible to the reader who's not a linguist.

Back in my (yes, ultra-geeky) LARPing days, I never could ask the question, "How do you fare?" I couldn't even answer it. Everyone thought I was one of the best role-players in the game, but I managed that without all that pseudo-medieval speak. Maybe that I was a barbarian helped. There was usually a combination of action and words.


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## Gryphos (May 20, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Slang and swearing's more fun. A part of me wants to write more kid-friendly works, but then there's this wonderful four-letter word I've come to know and love and use regularly since the age of seven. I feel like it's not a word I must use in my stories, but if it fits, and I'm aiming for a child audience, well… then I'm f***ed.



I feel the same. I tried writing this story relatively cleanly, but there came times in the narrative that a well-constructed piece of swearing would work so well and ... well, it ain't PG anymore.


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## Devor (May 20, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> And yeah, avoideth Ye Olde Common Tongue like the plague or other medieval disease. (Well, unless you're into that sort of thing. As you mayhaps hath guessethed, I'm not into it, so it sounds stupid, sarcastic or both when I attempt/fake it.)



Yeah . . . . that kind of language can be much more jarring than modern language.  I meant that I shoot for language that sounds . . . old?  Formal?  Less colloquial?  None of those are quite what I mean.  Let's go with Walter Cronkite English, plus a few quirks and colloquialisms that are unique to the setting.


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## Chessie (May 20, 2015)

The stories I have been working on are set in an 18th century type world and I'm constantly battling myself over the right language to use in dialogue. I try not to use phrases that are modern although sometimes they slip in and are caught by my crit partners/readers, which I'm exceedingly grateful for.

The thing is: do any of us truly have an idea of what people talked like from 1200-1900? Maybe a notion, but our language is so different from the past hundreds of years that I believe it's unfair to put that kind of stupid pressure on authors to get it right.


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## Nimue (May 20, 2015)

Of course we don't--an author just needs to meet the standard of our collective fiction of the era.  Reader expectations need to be met, otherwise it's going to be assumed that you didn't put time/research/thought into it, even if you did, and maybe even if you're technically correct! See: "shit" being an old word.

Tough, for sure.  Reading primary documents from the period is maybe the best way to develop your tone, but also reading historical or fantasy novels in a similar setting.


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## Chessie (May 20, 2015)

I'm not saying that we shouldn't do research on the time period or do our best to use the proper terms of the era story world is set in. But I am saying that it doesn't need to be perfect, and that there are terms used (slang terms) today that were not used back in those days and vice versa. Our goal as authors isn't just to entertain, but to communicate story clearly to readers. So if we're communicating in speech that's  unfamiliar, then how are we truly immersing our readers? Let's remember that many people read at an 8th grade level and probably haven't read the works that one would use for "research".


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## Reilith (May 20, 2015)

I remember when I was younger and was starting to read fantasy (and by that I don't mean Harry Potter and the lot of children's fantasy) I stumbled upon a very word-heavy book by a Russian author, although I read it in my mother language. It was a very hard thing for me back then, I felt like I couldn't understand what was being said, since I wasn't familiar with the terminology, but the general gist of wording was really in the zone of the story, without being over-pompous or confusing. It was more about my inexperience than with the wording, but even today I can't force myself to go back to those books, it just left a bad impression on me. On the other hand, now I don't have a problem with reading either, contemporary worded books or the ones with more medieval language, both are fine with me, but it probably rests most into what many of you have said already - if it sounds natural for the character saying it, it works. I'd have a hard time imagining or reading the words of a King talking to his courtiers saying slurs or talking like a ruffian, same way it would be weird to see a sheepherder talking like a highborn. It is all in the character and whether the writer makes their words believable. I've seen some great books written in more "plain" language and I enjoyed them as much as I do with the higher fantasy written stuff.
I myself am trying to hold it somewhere in between and currently I am boggled if my writing technique is lacking because my characters which are teenagers maybe have too much small talk and contemporary banter than I'd like or is it fitting as they are still young. Of course, they speak properly when addressing seniors but in conversations between themselves they do tend to wander off from it quite a bit. I am not sure if I am liking it, but I am also unsure should I change it or keep it as a quirk.


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## MineOwnKing (May 20, 2015)

With the example you gave it does look out of place to me.

F-bombs have their place, but using them frequently can become a slap in the face simply from over usage.

To better understand what I mean, take another word that can be used often in informal, real world conversations, such as the word 'like'.

"Like, dude, like, you were totally like, not cool."

In this example the word 'like' can work well to add character definition, however, if somebody had to read 300 pages of dialogue with 'like' sprinkled in, it would become annoying.

A good example of a place to use an f-bomb would be inside of a hook.

There are different types of hooks. One style is to write about a character who says something you would not expect them to say. For example, if a nun says 'f%*k, that's creating a hook because we wouldn't expect her to say something vulgar.


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## Philip Overby (May 20, 2015)

As someone that uses modern language in my writing, this is a topic that is close to my heart, so to speak. The reasons I use it are because:

1. I'm writing dark comedy so I feel like I have some leeway. I guess I follow the A. Lee Martinez school of thought. He uses a lot of modern conventions in his writing and I do the same. Since it's fantasy writing, I don't equate swords+magic=medieval. Any setting can use swords, magic, and whatever if it's a made-up world. You just have to have it make sense in that context.

2. I find writing in an older style jarring myself. This is why I've never been able to write historical fiction. I can read it fine, but when it comes to writing it, I'd be too worried with screwing something up. That's why almost all of my writing either takes place in the contemporary world or in a secondary world.

3. In some ways, I think my writing style is more closely related to the South Park guys than Tolkien. Which means I tend to have a lot of foul language. When I was teenager, a lot of my friends cursed frequently. Then as an adult, the same thing. I worked around construction workers. They would sometimes curse every other word. To me this just shows a different way of growing up. Some people never curse and some curse constantly. I'd say in my regular life, I curse when the need arises. I try not to be a potty mouth all the time. In my writing I try not to have super frequent, but I keep it consistent with specific characters.

I hope that in some way fantasy readers can detach themselves from this idea that fantasy has to mirror its real-life counterpart. Just because a world may be based on a particular time period, doesn't mean it has to be completely faithful to that. I read a YA book a while back that had people fighting with chainsaw swords in ancient Japan. While this sounds ridiculous, it actually fits in the world the author created and therefore makes it pretty awesome.


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## MineOwnKing (May 20, 2015)

Philip Overby said:


> As someone that uses modern language in my writing, this is a topic that is close to my heart, so to speak.
> 
> It's pretty obvious that you are a literary pioneer Philip.
> 
> ...


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## Philip Overby (May 20, 2015)

MineOwnKing said:


> It's pretty obvious that you are a literary pioneer Philip.
> 
> I think it's really cool that you can incorporate a flexible lingo into your darkly comedic talent.
> 
> ...



Cool, I'll use that for the future. 

For me, this isn't the only way I write, but just one style that I like to mess around with. I do like to write stuff that is more faithful to a time period when I can, but it tends to be in a modern setting like the 80s or 90s. So I do have to keep in mind what people said in that period. If I do write a more medieval style fantasy story, I try to limit any modern language as much as possible.


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## BWFoster78 (May 20, 2015)

Part of my issue with restricting use of modern language is one of logic.

If I'm writing historical fiction, or even historical fantasy, I think it would be important to catch the tone of the time by using language that brought archaic speech to mind (without actually using archaic speech).

I'm not, however, writing about people on earth.  I doubt my characters speak English at all.  They're not even governed by the same physical laws that we are.

I would think that more of us on this forum are in that situation than in a situation where we need to adhere to Earth's history.

That being the case and we're "translating" the story from their language to English, why wouldn't we translate it into 2015 English instead of something that tries to mimic medieval Europe?

Again, if rockets don't exist, you probably shouldn't use "Xan rocketed skyward," but otherwise, why not use cool, lame, like, etc?


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## Philip Overby (May 20, 2015)

I'm interested in this BW. What would be an example of you using modern language? I'm just curious if your use and my use are similar in some capacity.


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## Penpilot (May 21, 2015)

I think it's all in the set up. You have to set up the world where language like that is expected. Also IMHO there's a limit to what you can get away with. F-bombs and Sh!t can fit into most worlds. Take a look at Scott Lynch's Lies of Locke Lamora, he used those quite effectively in his fantasy world.

But like I said there are certain things you can't get away with--well unless you're going for a story that's completely bonkers and absurd. I mean if you have characters saying things like gnary, dude, bossanova, rad, etc. I'm sorry, in a traditional fantasy world, where for the most part, it's a serious world, I'm not buying it.

To me, these things don't make anything more accessible. Quite the contrary. To me, they act as a barrier to immersion, a distraction that undermines the suspension of disbelief. It's like trying to concentrate on something but every few seconds someone slaps you in the face.

Again, it's all about the set up and the type of story. Some stories will allow you more leeway, while others not so much.


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## SugoiMe (May 21, 2015)

I personally like to see variation in language.  Not too much mind you, but enough to make it seem like I'm actually in a fantasy world, not in a big North American city.  Language is so heavily connected to culture, so when I see the f-bomb or other slang used excessively in an epic or historical fantasy, it grates on me.  It pulls me away from the setting and makes me envision a bunch of North Americans who've travelled to and occupied some other world.

That being said, I agree with those that say you can't twist the language so much that it's unreadable.  I can only take so much of MineOwnKing's dude language.


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## CupofJoe (May 21, 2015)

I think this pretty much an issue of personal taste, but I get annoyed when as a British-English speaker, writer and reader I get caught reading an Americanism.
I've gotten over reading color and humor and even labor... I know I've lost that battle there  but in the middle of a fantasy tale I read a few years back a character said they "burglarized" a house, not "burgled". 
Okay both words are perfectly adequate in their own ways but "burglarized" just seemed so wrong to me in the pseudo-medieval setting. It felt too modern and therefore out of place but may in fact be the more accurate word.
So I'm back to personal taste.
[and my spell-check want to change "burglarized" in to "burglarious" - okay, that's a new one to me...]


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## BWFoster78 (May 21, 2015)

Philip Overby said:


> I'm interested in this BW. What would be an example of you using modern language? I'm just curious if your use and my use are similar in some capacity.



Philip,

Mainly "modern" slang (if, by modern, you think what the kids were saying when I was in high school in the 80's):

Stop that. Play it cool.

Who would have thought Dylan would be the one to screw up?

Really? Waving to her? How lame was that?

Thanks.

Brian


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## Philip Overby (May 21, 2015)

Ah, OK. So I think yours might be slightly different than mine, although I do use terms like "badass" and "awesome." I'm not married to the idea of using words like that, but I don't think it jars me out of a story if it's consistent. If it's just randomly thrown around, it might be more problematic. But if it's a consistent thing, I'm cool with it.


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## BWFoster78 (May 21, 2015)

Philip Overby said:


> Ah, OK. So I think yours might be slightly different than mine, although I do use terms like "badass" and "awesome." I'm not married to the idea of using words like that, but I don't think it jars me out of a story if it's consistent. If it's just randomly thrown around, it might be more problematic. But if it's a consistent thing, I'm cool with it.



Things like that don't bother me at all.  Some people, though, feel it (like) totally throws them out of the story.

Again, I've gotten a lot of criticism about using modern slang, and I'm not trying to say it's not a valid complaint.  It's hard, sometimes, to know when to make changes based on the criticism of other authors and when to say, "No, I think I need to do this my way." 

I this case, I think that what I gain by making the voice sound more natural to me seriously outweighs the fact that some people, mainly other authors I think, aren't going to like it.


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## Svrtnsse (May 21, 2015)

Philip Overby said:


> Ah, OK. So I think yours might be slightly different than mine, although I do use terms like "badass" and "awesome." I'm not married to the idea of using words like that, but I don't think it jars me out of a story if it's consistent. If it's just randomly thrown around, it might be more problematic. But if it's a consistent thing, I'm cool with it.



FWIW, I just finished your story, and I had no issues with your character's dialogue. It fit just fine with the rest of the voice of the story.


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## Nimue (May 21, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> Philip,
> 
> Mainly "modern" slang (if, by modern, you think what the kids were saying when I was in high school in the 80's):
> 
> ...


What's the setting for this story, and the tone? (Is it light, comedic, or intended for younger readers?) If it's a fairly serious fantasy in a historical-analogue setting... Honestly, I'd consider this to fall on the side of laziness.  It's one thing to use words like this if they support the world you're in, if they feel natural and expected within the world, and it's another thing to use them because it's the first phrase that comes to mind.  And as far as clarity of communication goes, er, "that's lame" and "play it cool" isn't really default language any more. Straight from a 90's Nickelodeon show.  Yeah, a lot of readers might not notice or care.  But some are also going to get fed up with the lack of believability.


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## Gryphos (May 21, 2015)

With regards to 'f*ck that shit', is it really an exclusively modern term? I mean, yes, as far as we know it's only entered the societal lexicon recently, but is there really anything inherently contemporary about it?

'F*ck' has been a word for a long time, 'that' has been a word for a very long time, and 'shit' has also been a word for a very long time. I can't see how it would be implausible for someone in a fantasy setting to put those three words together. The only issue, I suppose, would be that 'shit' has only recently begun to be used as an all-purpose vague noun. But that's not to say it couldn't have been used like that earlier in history.

In essence, it's no different than saying "damn that tosh", just much less cringeworthy.


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## Legendary Sidekick (May 21, 2015)

What makes me think BW's not being lazy is this:


BWFoster78 said:


> That being the case and *we're "translating" *the story from their language to English, why wouldn't we *translate it into 2015 English* instead of something that tries to mimic medieval Europe?
> 
> Again, *if rockets don't exist, you probably shouldn't use "Xan rocketed skyward,"* but otherwise, why not use cool, lame, like, etc?


There is logical thought being put into the language, and I think there's also a matter of comfort zone.

For me, I like to have characters speak a certain way. Addison Lane's voice was inspired by my limited exposure to Irish brogue, which is pretty much reading Annie Sullivan's POV (she's Helen Keller's teacher) and hearing the Lucky Charms leprechaun. Oh, and I was in Ireland once. Word choices are inspired by the way people talk on manual labor jobs and also the way people talk doing outdoorsy stuff like removing tree stumps or using stepping stones to cross Ye Rapids.

I don't think of Addy's words as modern or ancient. I just know when the words sound like her words and when they don't. Other characters talk like barbarians or talk like hicks or talk like princesses or talk like poncy knights. It's a judgment call, and I think we all do that when we give characters a voice. It's just that some of us use the language we know of in the modern world, while some of us use the language we know of from the medieval world, and of course we mix and match ways of speaking and we're all inspired by our favorite characters and our favorite authors.

If you've had a lot of exposure to the way people talked in medieval times, you'll likely write that language well. Me? I'd botch it, but I can give my characters a voice that makes them believable as long as I'm not forced into rules like "don't use the F-word" or "greet with 'Howst doth thou fareth?'"


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## Russ (May 21, 2015)

Gryphos said:


> With regards to 'f*ck that shit', is it really an exclusively modern term? I mean, yes, as far as we know it's only entered the societal lexicon recently, but is there really anything inherently contemporary about it?
> 
> 'F*ck' has been a word for a long time, 'that' has been a word for a very long time, and 'shit' has also been a word for a very long time. I can't see how it would be implausible for someone in a fantasy setting to put those three words together. The only issue, I suppose, would be that 'shit' has only recently begun to be used as an all-purpose vague noun. But that's not to say it couldn't have been used like that earlier in history.
> 
> In essence, it's no different than saying "damn that tosh", just much less cringeworthy.



History is replete with scatalogical curses and references.


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## Tom (May 21, 2015)

You're writing what would qualify as fantasy steampunk, right? If that's the case, I wouldn't find it jarring in the least. Your style, to me, seems to wed past and present, so modern-sounding dialogue isn't a big deal. 

I myself use modern dialogue quite a bit, even in what's supposed to be high-ish fantasy. It just seems more realistic, as there never was just one way people spoke in any given time period. We might expect formal speech in a Medieval fantasy setting, but in the Middle Ages, not everyone spoke like that. Slang has always been around.


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## Tom (May 21, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> 'Howst doth thou fareth?'"



That would actually be more like "How dost thou fareth?"


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## Legendary Sidekick (May 21, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> You're writing what would qualify as fantasy steampunk, right? If that's the case, I wouldn't find it jarring in the least. Your style, to me, seems to wed past and present, so modern-sounding dialogue isn't a big deal.


I'm assuming you're asking me, because… yeah. "Wed past and present" is pretty much what I do. Thanks for noticing!


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## Tom (May 21, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> I'm assuming you're asking me, because… yeah. "Wed past and present" is pretty much what I do. Thanks for noticing!



Actually, I was asking Gryphos...but you do the same thing, so I guess I could be asking both of you!


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## Legendary Sidekick (May 21, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> That would actually be more like "How dost thou fareth?"


I told you I suck at that!


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## BWFoster78 (May 21, 2015)

Nimue said:


> What's the setting for this story, and the tone? (Is it light, comedic, or intended for younger readers?) If it's a fairly serious fantasy in a historical-analogue setting... Honestly, I'd consider this to fall on the side of laziness.  It's one thing to use words like this if they support the world you're in, if they feel natural and expected within the world, and it's another thing to use them because it's the first phrase that comes to mind.  And as far as clarity of communication goes, er, "that's lame" and "play it cool" isn't really default language any more. Straight from a 90's Nickelodeon show.  Yeah, a lot of readers might not notice or care.  But some are also going to get fed up with the lack of believability.



Nimue,

Some heavy stuff happens as it is epic fantasy, but, overall, I strive for a light tone.

I think the phrase "it's the first phrase that comes to mind" isn't accurate.  It's more like I've changed it several times, and I keep coming back to it.  It just "feels" better.

What I figured out recently that has helped me a ton is:

My first book is not going to be as good as my tenth.  Instead of letting great be the enemy of good, I'm going to really try to get a couple of things that I think are important right.  Everything else, I'm only going to change if my editor tells me to.


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## Reaver (May 21, 2015)

I needs must express my belief that modern dialogue in any type of fantasy setting doesn't pull me from the story at all (see how I did the transverse there?). 

However, dialogue in which the characters don't use contractions often does. An even more egregious offense is made up contractions.

 For example, instead of "Who are you?", the author writes "Who're you?"

I can't help but think that one character is calling another a whore. Maybe I'm alone in this train of thought.


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## BWFoster78 (May 21, 2015)

Reaver said:


> I needs must express my belief that modern dialogue in any type of fantasy setting doesn't pull me from the story at all (see how I did the transverse there?).
> 
> However, dialogue in which the characters don't use contractions often does. An even more egregious offense is made up contractions.
> 
> ...



I once tried to make a character sound more formal by not letting him use contractions.  It came off as horribly stilted.  Maybe a better writer than me can make that work, but, at this point, I can't.

LOL'd at the whore comment, though!


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## Gryphos (May 21, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:
			
		

> You're writing what would qualify as fantasy steampunk, right? If that's the case, I wouldn't find it jarring in the least. Your style, to me, seems to wed past and present, so modern-sounding dialogue isn't a big deal.



Yeah, pretty much. It's a fantasy setting with a 19th century aesthetic and certain steampunk elements, mainly airships ... because airships are sick.

Speaking of, while I am opting to use relatively modern dialogue, there is a limit. I'm not gonna have characters say, "Naw, that's peak" or "Don't do that, that's so bait" or "Ernest is a f*ckin sideman" (no particular reason I picked Ernest there, it just sounds like a sideman name). Well, actually I might have one character who talks like that, and humour could be had as the other characters are oblivious to what they're actually saying.


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## Nimue (May 21, 2015)

Steampunk gives you a lot more leeway in terms of tone than a lot of these historical-epic fantasy books!

I definitely agree that you can go too far in the other direction.  I can't get through a single Cecilia Dart-Thornton book for that reason.  None of that dialogue sounds like people talking!  And zero contractions for no reason other than the author thinking they shouldn't use contractions is so annoying.  People have been verbally shortening words forever.  Shortcut to medieval dialogue, that is not.


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## Steerpike (May 21, 2015)

I think you can establish any tone you want, regardless of the sub-genre, approximate pseudo-historical time period, etc. You've just got to be good enough at it to make it work. Brust strikes a modern tone with his Vlad Taltos books, though the setting is basically an epic fantasy setting. He writers other books set in that same universe, but hundreds of years before, and changes the dialogue to make it sound a bit more old-fashion, so that the whole thing reads more like an Alexandre Dumas story. It works great.

The question isn't whether it is possible to do something, but whether you can pull it off. The title of this thread says "jarringly" modern dialogue. If it is jarring, then you haven't done a good job with it. You either fix it so that it is no longer jarring or try a different approach.


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## BWFoster78 (May 21, 2015)

Steerpike,

I think that "jarring" is, to an extent, in the eye of the beholder.  Perhaps there are some so against the concept that they'll reject any modernism out of hand, so, for those people, any usage is "jarring."

That's their right, but I'm not sure an author should make decisions based on such extremes.

I have a ton of little issues that cause me to, pretty much, automatically reject a book.


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## Steerpike (May 21, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> Steerpike,
> 
> I think that "jarring" is, to an extent, in the eye of the beholder.  Perhaps there are some so against the concept that they'll reject any modernism out of hand, so, for those people, any usage is "jarring."
> 
> ...



Yes, I think that's right. I don't mind modern dialogue in fantasy, even epic fantasy, if done well and it fits in with the tone of the story. Same goes for archaic dialogue. That said, I tend not to get hung up on such things. If a writer knows her craft and does a good job, I'll read any story, in any genre, written in any POV, tense, etc. As a reader, I'm just not put off by variations in those things.

Some readers will certainly be put off by modern dialogue in a fantasy novel, but I agree with you than an author can't write to please narrow segments of the readership. The author has to remain true to his vision of the novel and move forward that way. It will result in the best product, and no matter which route you choose there are more than enough readers who will enjoy it.


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## Nimue (May 21, 2015)

Yes, I'd agree with everything you've said, but with the caveat that oddly modern or jarring dialogue can be a sign that an author _isn't_ good with their craft, and that's something readers will pick up on, even if they can't put their finger on it.  If the writer is confident that the choice works with their style and setting, like Phil and BW are, then that's great.  But if the writer isn't sure about it, or they're getting a lot of feedback against it, it's a good idea to examine that dialogue.  I think this is a good discussion to have, and saying "it doesn't matter, anything can work" is oversimplifying things...


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## Devor (May 21, 2015)

Nimue said:


> Yes, I'd agree with everything you've said, but with the caveat that oddly modern or jarring dialogue can be a sign that an author _isn't_ good with their craft, and that's something readers will pick up on, even if they can't put their finger on it.



For me, I think there's a lot to this statement. The characters should feel like a product of their setting, and modern dialogue often comes with modern attitudes and creates a disconnect between the characters and their settings.

That disconnect is the thing to watch out for, and modern dialogue can be a red flag or a warning sign in that direction.  Even though there are a large number of works for which it's appropriate.

That said, even for those who find it off-putting, it's part of the language and voice that you largely get over within a chapter or two of reading.


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## BWFoster78 (May 21, 2015)

> The characters should feel like a product of their setting, and modern dialogue often comes with modern attitudes and creates a disconnect between the characters and their settings.



The absolute biggest influence on my concept of what epic fantasy should be is Jordan's WoT.  I've always thought that the protagonists' attitudes in that work were largely modern and have incorporated such into my world.


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## cupiscent (May 21, 2015)

I like to think that I give an author room to create a _feel_ for the world, and a big part of that is how the characters talk. If it's a vibrant urban setting, then I don't mind vibrant urban speech tendencies, but it's still going to make me blink if one character calls another "homie". It's just so very much of _our_ world. Similarly, I tend to get thrown when characters in a more historical setting say "OK", and definitely when any character outside of modern urban fantasy uses "hot" as a compliment. (Those are two examples I have experienced and that spring immediately to mind.)

Personally, I _love_ creating world-based idiom. It's so much fun! Why would you deny yourself that little creative flourish as an author?


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## SugoiMe (May 21, 2015)

Reaver, I think you would hate my novel because my MC's dialect of the common language and his own language don't use contractions.


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## Reaver (May 22, 2015)

SugoiMe said:


> Reaver, I think you would hate my novel because my MC's dialect of the common language and his own language don't use contractions.



I guess I should clarify. It's the stories where some characters use contractions and others don't that bother me. Like Goodkind's Sword of Truth series. If all of your characters don't use contractions throughout its entirety and it's an engaging story then I'm sure I'd enjoy it.


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## Russ (May 22, 2015)

The interesting thing about not using contractions is that it is one of the ways to tell if someone is ESL with no accent.  People who learn English as a second or later language tend not to use contractions.  Thus it sounds "foreign" to the native english speaker.


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## BWFoster78 (May 22, 2015)

I don't like using contractions.

Oh.  Wait.  Never mind.


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## Svrtnsse (May 22, 2015)

I find it hard, it's hard to find, oh well, whatever, never mind...


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## Incanus (May 22, 2015)

Reaver said:


> I guess I should clarify. It's the stories where some characters use contractions and others don't that bother me. Like Goodkind's Sword of Truth series. If all of your characters don't use contractions throughout its entirety and it's an engaging story then I'm sure I'd enjoy it.



What about Data on Star Trek: TNG?  Does exactly what you're saying, but works just fine.  Of course that's Sci-fi.

I read Wizard's First Rule, but don't remember coming across that feature.  I'm unlikely to read anymore of that series though.


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## Legendary Sidekick (May 22, 2015)

Svrtnsse said:


> I find it hard, it's hard to find, oh well, whatever, never mind...


It's hard to bargle nawdle zouss with all these marbles in my mouth...


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## Legendary Sidekick (May 22, 2015)

Russ said:


> The interesting thing about not using contractions is that it is one of the ways to tell if someone is ESL with no accent.  People who learn English as a second or later language tend not to use contractions.  Thus it sounds "foreign" to the native english speaker.


I teach ESL, and I totally agree with Russ' take on what would be a _good_ reason to have one or some characters not use contractions. Combine that with limited vocabulary and maybe misused or omitted articles, and you have a foreigner. Readers may "hear" an accent, though the accent will vary from reader to reader.


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## skip.knox (May 22, 2015)

It's always worthwhile to see how other authors (good ones) handle this. My exemplars are Patrick O'Brian and Colleen McCullough in her Masters of Rome series. And, oddly enough, the TV series Rome. Each handles it differently; all are successful.

While vulgarities reach far back in time, the specific phrase "f*ck that sh*t" is modern. And a nauseating image, if you think about it. So it would jar me in a way the individual words would not.

BTW, all that thee and thou stuff isn't really medieval, it's early modern. Middle English doesn't read that way, and we wouldn't want to write modern English that way.

Otherwise, the common advice given here is right--establish your speakers' tone and vocabulary early. If the story is interesting, I'll go along for the ride. But if you don't drop the f-bomb until page 117, then it's probably not going to work. (but O'Brian manages the exception)


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## Penpilot (May 22, 2015)

skip.knox said:


> While vulgarities reach far back in time, the specific phrase "f*ck that sh*t" is modern. And a nauseating image, if you think about it. So it would jar me in a way the individual words would not.



You know I never thought about that. Haha. And yeah, eewwww!


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## Reaver (May 23, 2015)

Svrtnsse said:


> I find it hard, it's hard to find, oh well, whatever, never mind...



*Hey! Wait! I got a new complaint... Forever in debt to your priceless advice...*

Sorry, I got off topic there because

_*Polly wants a cracker...*_


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## Miskatonic (May 23, 2015)

Gryphos said:


> If you were reading a story set in a world with a historical aesthetic, say, 19th century-esque, would it be jarring for you to read modern-sounding dialogue. For example, with regards to a character dressed in a three piece suit and top hat...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Doesn't hurt to use the vernacular of the time, but throwing in a more modern sounding dialog when it fits the scene shouldn't make or break a book. If you set your story in Victorian London during the end of the 19th century for example, I would expect the dialog to be close to what it was back then to improve immersion.


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## Gryphos (Aug 24, 2015)

I'm gonna resurrect this thread because I've got another instance of use of modern, informal dialogue which I'm concerned about.

The character in question, Kol-Sathos, is literally a god, who looks like a dude clad completely in plate armour, and whenever he speaks, black sludge drips from the slits of his visor. But while he's a god, and in fiction usually they have a degree of, let's say, grandness to their speech patterns, I wanted this guy to be a bit different. This god is foul-mouthed and very informal in his speech.

An example would be when, while he's giving a lecture of sorts, he's interrupted and has this little outburst.



> "Here's an idea, White Rice, how about you shut the f*ck up before I shove that lute so far up your arse you can play it with your tongue."



And then, when another character tries to stop the MC from approaching Kol-Sathos, he says:



> "Oi! Mango Sachet, f*ck off."



*'White Rice' and 'Mango Sachet' are two examples of nicknames he'll give to random people he comes across

What I'm hoping for by giving this character such strange speaking patterns for how gods and divine beings are usually written is a degree of humour and amusement. I really want Kol-Sathos to be a memorable and different character from what people usually see. But I just want to know if this kind of discrepancy might be jarring and wether it would even annoy some of you should you read a character like this.


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## Penpilot (Aug 24, 2015)

Just a little FYI. White Rice is a derogatory term. Often defined as "A Caucasian who wants to be/thinks he/she is of Asian descent. Often frowned upon by Asians."

If derogatory is what you're going for, have at it, but if not, maybe rethink that nickname.


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## MineOwnKing (Aug 25, 2015)

Gryphos said:


> I'm gonna resurrect this thread because I've got another instance of use of modern, informal dialogue which I'm concerned about.
> 
> The character in question, Kol-Sathos, is literally a god, who looks like a dude clad completely in plate armour, and whenever he speaks, black sludge drips from the slits of his visor. But while he's a god, and in fiction usually they have a degree of, let's say, grandness to their speech patterns, I wanted this guy to be a bit different. This god is foul-mouthed and very informal in his speech.
> 
> ...



My opinion as a Yank, is that: if you give the gods any type of UK accent, and the regular characters an American accent, it will work for American sales on Amazon.


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## tantric (Aug 29, 2015)

I love this place! This just came up in a character sketch of my geisha today:  


> Jubbu-jang-san stands a bit over a meter and a half, though a good part of that is bouffant and 2cm thick clogs. Today her face is painted pale lavender, and her wig styled to a beehive, metallic black with a green shine. Living tillandsia epiphytes protrude their silvery green leaves from the wig - likely gengineered at the local GAIS campus to do who knows what. Her very correctly arranged  kimono is morpho blue edged in orange and transparent veils. Where it trails behind her it moves over obstacles like blue mercury, making it clear that the fabric is the work of Tapi Silksong, Trumpettangle's resident tailor cum fashion saint Weaver Arachna. Painted like a doll, her face is her mask - she expresses exactly and only 27 distinct facial expressions, each one practised perfect. In the esoterica of the floating world,* Jubbu-jang is considered a postmodernist, demonstrating the fact with her urban slang and trendy accent*.


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