# Has this ever happened to you as a writer?



## Argentum (Aug 23, 2011)

I started doing heavy reading when I was twelve. After reading a particularly epic story, I remember looking at it and saying, "I can write as good as this." That was probably the first 'shift'. The possibility of looking at something so grand and realizing that it was possible to craft something as wonderful.

I read as many fantasy books as I could. All the stories were epics to me. They were all brilliant and perfect.Years later though, after many years of writing, I felt something sort of shift. I was reading one of R.A. Salvatore's newer books and something clicked so that I could finally realize the words on the page. It was like finally reaching his level where I could notice what words he used to make a sentence, how he wove his stories, and I could pick them apart if I wanted.

The last 'click' was this year. I took a book I had previously written and butchered it. While trying to make it worth publishing, I tried to remove as many loopholes as possible from my plot. I thought of how my characters would think, how the villian would respond, the bluffing and double bluffing, and then on top of it all, having to be smarter than everyone else in my book so that I could still have control over my story. This was the first time I had put so much effort into giving my characters the intelligence they deserved, knowing that if I wanted to weave my story into something worthy of hardcover (dreaming here), I would have to outsmart them all.

My question is this: has this ever happened to you? Have you ever actual felt yourself gain a level in writing? Or at least noticed yourself improving?


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## Philip Overby (Aug 23, 2011)

Yes, I have had many "level ups" in my life.  I used to write poetry.  So that's a definite level up for me.  Nothing wrong with poetry.  But something one of my professors said one time really struck home "The only people who read poetry are other poets."  True.

These are my phases:

1.  Dark Dreary Poet:  Wrote a bunch of ABAB poems about abortion, death, suicide, dying unicorns, and snakes puking rainbows.

2.  Dungeons and Dragons Neophyte:  Wrote stories about guardsmen and dog people fighting for control of the northern gate.  Uh, yeah.

3.  Epic Fantasy Nut:  Everything must be long.  Everything must be epic.  Multiple POVs.  Blame it on Stephen King and George R.R. Martin.

4.  Jugular Spray:  Lots of violence, blood, and slaughter.  Most in strip clubs and/or churches.

5.  Weird Wacky Guy:  I'll write anything weird or wacky.  Read:  I don't care anymore.  So I'll write whatever.

Those are my phases.  So, yes, I've had "the switch flip" several times.  And I recognize that as a good thing.


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## Telcontar (Aug 23, 2011)

Heh heh - 'gain a level in writing.' Great way of putting it.

I can't say I've ever felt a discrete jump in ability/perception like that, no. I do however have an example of work I did over the course of many years - the first book I tried to write. I started when I was eight or nine, and kept writing it until I was... twelve, I think. Maybe thirteen. I abandoned it because I realized that it was the same as all beginner fantasy - derivative and fantasy-fulfillment stuff.

I kept it around though, and even now, over a decade later, I go back and peruse it from time to time. It's fun to be able to literally track the improvement in my writing, watch my vocabulary expand, etc.

PS: Snakes puking rainbows, Phil?


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## Leuco (Aug 23, 2011)

Phil the Drill said:


> Yes, I have had many "level ups" in my life.



Whoa. I've gone through those exact phases too, Phil! I guess there are levels after all.

Looking back on old work is the easiest way to see the growth. As we get older, we read more and write more, and we just get better at it.

My level up moment is kind of different, Argentum, but I'm sure you've experienced it too. Stephen King talks about it as he gives some writers some good advice. I thought it was inspirational. It's only a minute long.






Groovy shirt!


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## Ravana (Aug 23, 2011)

Yes. (My first two phases resembled Phil's, though I went different directions afterward. And I didn't use ABAB rhyme _until_ my poetry started maturing.) 

I'd like to put a bit of emphasis on something you didn't, directly: the feeling of "I can do this." I'd have to say that the majority of my stories begin in a similar fashion–not "I can do better," but rather "That's not how _I_ would have done that.…" Which shifts the emphasis away from trying to "outdo" another work… you tell the story the way you think it ought to have gone. 

(Admittedly, this feeling overtakes me most often upon reading some lame, cop-out, _deus ex whathefu?_ ending–in which case, I am indeed looking to "improve" the story. But it isn't because I want to be better, it's because I want something that was otherwise a good story to have a proper ending.)



> I could finally realize the words on the page. It was like finally reaching his level where I could notice what words he used to make a sentence, how he wove his stories



Very nicely put. That's the transition you really want to aim for–no longer thinking as much about _what_ you're writing (that, hopefully, will be coming automatically, if you're a hopelessly addicted author), but _how_ you're writing. And the best way to learn this is to start noticing how other authors do what _they_ do: figure out _why_ you like what you like best, and emulate it.


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## Philip Overby (Aug 23, 2011)

Telcontar said:


> PS: Snakes puking rainbows, Phil?



What else would snakes puke?  

Actually, I think I'm actually going through another phase right now because I started writing a manga with a partner who is doing the art.  I realized that even though I have some good ideas, the execution is oftentimes off or wonky.  And when writing is paired with illustrations, you have to capture what's going on in the quickest, best way possibly.

I've actually seen kids reading manga on the train and they just flip, flip, flip.  And I think "All that writing and you just look at the pictures!"  Gah!


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## Ravana (Aug 23, 2011)

Phil the Drill said:


> I used to write poetry.  So that's a definite level up for me.  Nothing wrong with poetry.  But something one of my professors said one time really struck home "The only people who read poetry are other poets."  True.



Which is truly sad. A century ago, _everybody_ read poetry, and if anything it was fiction that was marginalized. I still write poetry–some of which has been published–but I write it because I write it, and couldn't care less who's reading it. 

Hmm. Let's see. My "phases": 

0: Hated writing–or, rather, being expected or required to: sporadically put stories down anyway. Wanted to be an astrophysicist.

1: Got into RPGs. Created worlds at the drop of a hat–I'm still running across material I never actually used. Didn't write "stories," per se: all the material was strictly game-related… though the plots were often laid out in connected prose, rather than bullet-pointed notes. (Besides, we didn't have bullet points then. No, I'm not joking.) The material itself is drivel, but the world-building apprenticeship served me well. 

2: Discovered poetry, and that I was reasonably good at it (disclaimer: compared to my peers…); started churning out free verse with far too many adjectives and far too vague imagery. (It made sense to _me_.…) Combine "dark and dreary" with "mystical and obscure," and you've got me then. Also discovered I was no flamin' good at higher math… so much for astrophysics. 

3: Still into RPGs–over thirty (!) different systems at this point–but now the "plot" material is definitely story-like, and the "background" has overtaken the "up-front" material in page count by ten-to-one or more. Some of it starts to resemble actual, publishable fiction. Most still suffers from the defects of being game material: too much unmotivated diversity… but I'm still kicking myself for not trying to get a certain _Shadowrun_ plotline into publication at the time it would have been relevant to their ongoing novel series. My excuse is that at this time I was less focused on the stories than on gaming itself: by now, I was writing my own game _systems_. (One, or perhaps two of which may yet see the light of day: the first play-tested quite well, in fact.)

4: Finally got back to school after a decade's hiatus–and started discovering what writing was _supposed_ to look like. This is where the quantum leap of focusing on "how" rather than "what" started to occur. Poetry got _way_ better; this is also where rhyme schemes started making serious appearances in my writing, in defiance of the deceptive "freedom" of free verse. Began to write fiction (mostly SF) for its own sake, albeit rarely. Also learned that compactness is desirable… "less is more." [Remind me to tell you the story about two-page essays some time: that was the single most valuable experience in my entire education.]

5: I said "started" in the last stage–because where it really took hold was after I'd graduated and began _teaching_ writing. If you ever really want to learn how to do something… try teaching it to someone else. It forces you to analyze every step, every detail that goes into it–and that will force you to do the same to your own work. Finally figured out what "show, don't tell" freakin' means, after hearing it (but not having it explained) for years. Started producing material that stood a chance of making the cut. 

6: Last gaming group folded… no longer any excuse to focus most of my energies that direction. (Those familiar with the Machiavel forum will realize that the urge has hardly departed, however.  ) Think I'm doing okay now, in terms of quality… just gotta get off my aÃŸ and start submitting things to publishers rather than spending all my time on web foru–oops.


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## Ravana (Aug 23, 2011)

Phil the Drill said:


> Actually, I think I'm actually going through another phase right now because I started writing a manga with a partner who is doing the art.  I realized that even though I have some good ideas, the execution is oftentimes off or wonky.  And when writing is paired with illustrations, you have to capture what's going on in the quickest, best way possibly.



You learned the fine art of storyboarding yet? If you really want the writing to work, don't leave that to your collaborator: even if all you're doing is drawing squares on a page with text directions such as "X does A here," you'll be able to figure out much better what needs to be "written" and what needs to be–or at least can be–handled in the visuals. Sort of like stage directions in drama, but to a far greater extent. (Your collaborator will probably then throw out your storyboarding and do the panels his own way–that's how artists are; the point is to guide _you_ in what you're writing.)


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## Philip Overby (Aug 24, 2011)

@Ravana-Oh yes, I'm doing storyboarding.  And it's a "whole new world."  He calls it a "name."  Sort of an outline for him to use.  I basically draw stick figures facing different directions and doing different things.  The first manga we did (which is almost finished) I didn't do that.  This second one is opening me up more to how much work goes into the layout.  

It's a learning experience for sure.

And poetry is a good catharsis.  Like you said, it used to be a higher art form than prose.  But now it seems like prose is taking a backseat to "OMG LOLZ."  And the wheel turns.


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## mythique890 (Aug 29, 2011)

I only started writing three or so years ago, but I've definitely had 'jumps.'

1- Ages 6-23, avid reader.
2- Read _Twilight_ at the insistence of a friend.  Didn't care for it, but as I was reading it I kept thinking, "Man, even _I_ can write better than this!"  
3- Actually started writing for fun with my first novel.  Got stuck on my first novel.  Gained grudging respect for Stephanie Meyer.  After a year and a half of nothing, I started my second attempt at a novel (still in progress).
4- A few days ago, I realized that while I may be good at the mechanics of writing, I suck at storytelling.  Started blog-stalking favorite authors and reading everything I can about how to construct a story.  This is where I am now.


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## Ravana (Aug 29, 2011)

@mythique890: Start telling shorter stories. Learn how to write a _complete_ one before worrying about trying to write long ones. In fact, set yourself strict length limits—since most publications have these anyway—and figure out how to tell a story in exactly 3,000 words… or 2,000… or 500. It's one of the most valuable exercises you can do. Once you've got some practice telling stories this way, take the two next steps: (1) start telling longer stories; and (2) start submitting the ones you already have done to publishers (magazine or online—though I promise you, the thrill of seeing your story in print far exceeds that of having it published electronically). And in the meantime, show your writing to people whose opinions you consider worth having—and who you can trust to be honest, both negatively and positively. ("This is great!" may feel good to hear, but it doesn't tell you jack about _what_ you're doing correctly.)

@Phil: Good, and good. The stick-figure stuff is exactly what I had in mind: you ain't gonna impress your artist with your art nohow (or else you'd be doing it yourself). But doing your own visuals, no matter how basic, lets you know what you _don't_ need to say—very literally in this case, what you can "show" and not "tell."

And I'm glad you haven't completely given up on poetry. Even if it don't pay nothin'… and, usually, it don't. 

Think I'm going to revisit some of my older poems that fall in/near our genre (which, honestly, are few), and see if any seem worth putting up here to inspire others.


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## mythique890 (Aug 30, 2011)

@Ravana: Thanks for the advice!  It's really good.  I've never been much of a reader of short stories, but lately I've seen the benefit of writing them, a lot of them, as practice and for fun.  Thank you again!


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## Ravana (Aug 30, 2011)

Quite welcome. Not everything needs to be a novel–let alone an epic series. (The classic beginner mistake: everyone wants to write a novel. Well, so do I. Maybe someday I'll have enough to say about one thing to write one.) If a story needs to be longer, fine: make it as long as it needs to be… but the practice involved in making things shorter will improve _all_ areas of your writing, including when you want to go long–because it forces you to focus on _everything_ you're doing, every single word, and how each one fits with all the others. 

That's why I encourage word limits: when you're writing 80,000 words, you can afford to be sloppy; when you're writing 2,000, you agonize over which ones you can afford to keep… and you will get far more creative about replacing vague, multi-word descriptions with precise single words to get the rest to fit. (You also get really good at eliminating determiners, prepositions, conjunctions, all those unnecessary "transition words" your teachers kept pointlessly insisting on, and intensifiers such as "really".…  ) Then, when you do want to write a novel, you may only end up with 60,000 words instead of 80,000–but they'll be _better_ words, assembled in better fashion, because they'll all _belong_ there.

I mentioned, a couple posts back, my "two-page essay" story. I was taking a senior honors course in English Renaissance Lit; each week we had a new piece to read–few of them short–and had to turn in a "response" paper for each one. And it had to be two pages long. No more. Period. If there was a third page, with even a single word on it, the professor tore it off and threw it away. He didn't care how you got it onto two pages–single space, small fonts, no margins, even photoreduced, as long as it was only two pages. (I don't think anyone ever tried using pages larger than 8.5x11, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't forbidden.) The point, of course, was to force you to stay on topic, say what needed to be said, and then stop. 

Being the kind of person I am (and for an example of that: in one high school lit class, we were given daily vocabulary words, which we had to use in sentences, turned in at the end of each 9-week period; I handed in a 90-line poem in which the vocab word ended the first line of a couplet, and was rhymed in the second… the teacher read the first two couplets, realized what I'd done, marked an "A" on the top and handed it back), I took the two-page assignments as a challenge. Not only did I _not_ use any of the above techniques to squeeze more in… I turned in every paper in strict MLA format. Double-spaced, one-inch margins, 12-point font, name and page number in header, introductory header (name, professor's name, class name, date, each on a separate line), title a third of the way down the first page, citation for the text at the end. I was giving up half a page at the outset, even before taking the double-spacing into account–and I _still_ managed to say everything I needed to say… and, perhaps needless to say, nothing I didn't. The professor said he'd never had anyone attempt that before. (And he'd been teaching for three decades, and using this type of assignment for most of that time.) And again perhaps needless to say… I got an "A" on every one of them. 

It may not always show in my posts here  … but it was far and away the most valuable writing assignment I ever received.


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## Ravana (Aug 30, 2011)

P.S. You can always write stories as "episodes" in a given setting… and connect them later on, when you get enough of them to start approaching novel length. You'll end up substantially rewriting them, to get them to flow better in the larger setting—and many of them may not fit together at all—but at least that way, you don't have to try writing one larger work from beginning to end.


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## myrddin173 (Aug 31, 2011)

After reading this thread the only thing I could think of was a person writing and then they reach a point where they "level-up" and then proceed to stand up and enter a hero pose while this plays in the background.


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## Dante Sawyer (Aug 31, 2011)

I'm still young, so I have seen a noticable increse in the quality of my writing from when I started my ambitions at the age of 11 or so. Still, even in recent years, I have found myself growing as an writer. I nitpick my work more than most of my readers do, and I challege myself to become better.
I also am, as I'm sure most on this forum are, an avid reader. I find inspiration from everything that I read as either: "Wow... I want to be able to write something that spine chilling", or "Wow... that got published?!". When I read I look for the strengths of and weaknesses of the authors I read.  It makes me better.


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## grahamguitarman (Sep 4, 2011)

Ravana said:


> P.S. You can always write stories as "episodes" in a given setting… and connect them later on, when you get enough of them to start approaching novel length. You'll end up substantially rewriting them, to get them to flow better in the larger setting—and many of them may not fit together at all—but at least that way, you don't have to try writing one larger work from beginning to end.



Thats just how I write - creating random scenes (episodes) within a world then connecting them together afterwards   It does mean rewriting much of the earlier stuff as new concepts creep into the stories, but that for me is the beauty of having scene based writing.


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## grahamguitarman (Sep 4, 2011)

Phil the Drill said:


> What else would snakes puke?
> 
> Actually, I think I'm actually going through another phase right now because I started writing a manga with a partner who is doing the art.  I realized that even though I have some good ideas, the execution is oftentimes off or wonky.  And when writing is paired with illustrations, you have to capture what's going on in the quickest, best way possibly.
> 
> I've actually seen kids reading manga on the train and they just flip, flip, flip.  And I think "All that writing and you just look at the pictures!"  Gah!



I had a go at manga myself a couple of years ago - the short story Tenara I posted in the showcase was originally meant to be a manga.  I even drew a few pages of sketches and storyboards before I decided that Manga just wasn't quite my bag.  but it was a great learning experience all the same, it is a more cinematic experience than writing a story, and it taught me how to streamline my illustrations to be simple and to the point


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## grahamguitarman (Sep 4, 2011)

And to answer the original question I think that simply getting older can have a huge impact on the quality of your work - whether its painting, writing or music.  

When you are young you just want to do over the the top sword & sorcery, with lots of action and super hero lead characters.  As you mature you begin to see that the world is more complex and want to write stories (or paintings & music) with more depth.

Even though I hadn't actually painted since leaving college (some 25+ years ago) when I returned to it, I found my skills had matured hugely - even without any practice in-between!


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