# Magical limits



## Draconian (Jun 21, 2011)

Hi, I'm new and was wondering what magical limits should I have for my story.Like should I have an unlimited magical power source or should I have something that prevents them from using other peoples magic? 
Currently magic in my world can only be used by a select few and certain descendants of a magical race.They mainly can do stuff like heal the swords wounds or broken bones and maybe poison. They can create fire or shoot lighting from their hands. They also can freeze and heat stuff too, along with create gusts of winds. Very large groups of mages can also distort space and open portals to other places. Along with that I have a sickness that only magically gifted people can contract. So i'm eager to see your rules or limitations for magic and what magic can do in your world. So feel free to post me your ideas and feedback.


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## Black Dragon (Jun 21, 2011)

Welcome Draconian!

Your idea of a "sickness that only magically gifted people can contract" sounds promising.  If you approach this in an original manner, it may yield great results.

I always lean towards avoiding an unlimited magical power source.  By creating limits you are creating obstacles, which forces the characters to find ways to work around them.  If handled correctly, this can make for clever storytelling possibilities.


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## Derin (Jun 22, 2011)

When I use magic, I tend to use a sort of energy that moves through everything. Living being generate it and it likes to collect in certain materials (like water), and people can learn to manipulate the energy to make things happen. (Yeah, I use magic circles and soforth.) This is effectively a near-unlimited power source, but it raises the issue of control. The more power you manipulate at one, the harder it is to manage, and like computer programming, one error can ruin your spell or make it do something unpredictable. It's quite easy for overambitious magic-users to kill themselves by accident.


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## Draconian (Jun 22, 2011)

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that in my world their is a device with a huge amount of magical power but the device can't be used properly by mages and the only ones who can use this device properly are descendents of its creations and even then the device often causes bizare and often dangerous side effects like the magic sickness or the user going insane or being killed or going into a coma. By the way the device can create rifts in space to other dimensions and also it created a whole race of magical beings. The most terrify thing of all it can do or i should say did is basically cause a very large land mass to be reduced to nothing but sand and rock (killing all life and evaporating the water in and under the land leaving the land worthless and uninhabitable).


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## Hans (Jun 22, 2011)

I normally have a "magic is dangerous" setting. Everyday people will not have everyday magic. That's just not my style.

In one setting magic is very susceptible to side effects. From a theoretical point the world can be seen as a swinging structure and magic directly influences these waves. That spreads in all directions, not only the wanted one. Also it has some very technical limits like the energy needed does with the square of distance and so on.

In my other world powerful magic is demonology. Demons try to get independent from their summoner. Then they have their own urges. Like transforming the world into something they like and where very few "normal" live can survive. Or eating that tasty living flesh. It's not that they want to be evil, they just don't care. They are evil in the same sense a man eating tiger is evil.
And of course a more powerful demon is harder to control.


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## TWErvin2 (Jun 22, 2011)

I agree with Black Dragon, that there should not be unlimited magic. It can really distort a story and cause endless plot problems and the creation/resolution of conflict.

Draconian, you appear to have the basics established, but you should really have them refined--how and why a user of magic contracts the sickness. The cause of rifts opening. Although the reader may not end up being privy to the knowledge, having such will keep the world and the way magic functions consistent.

Revealing how magic 'works' is something that can be presented over time in the novel, as needed for the reader to understand. It's often something readers have an interest in, and will keep them reading to find out more.

In the world contained within my novel Flank Hawk, users of magic take on/suffer effects based on the magic they use and how powerful they become. Seers, for example, lose their physical sight as they increase in magical strength/skill. Enchanters are more susceptible to magic used upon/against them, and often hide their identity/fact that they are an enchanter.  How 'fun' would it be to become a powerful necromancer?


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## Draconian (Jun 22, 2011)

I think I figures out how magic works in my world. Magic users have a certain amount of magic in them to use in their bodies and going over the limit causes you to age because the 
magic will use your lifeforce to fuel a spell. You do recharge the magic in your body by resting or eating or sleeping and over time you will have more magic in your body. However their are other sources to use for fueling a spell such as another magic user or certain magical tools like magic circles or amulets or crystals. Basic magic like making a fire doesn't really have any side effects but doing something more complicated can result in many different side effects if you make a mistake. Along with that there is often many different ways of doing the same thing. I still haven't figured out how my magical sickness or opening rifts work yet though.


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## Derin (Jun 22, 2011)

Sorcery sickness is a common theme, so you have a lot of background material to work with. In some stories, people get a horrible fever and can die if they overstrain themselves. In others, magic weakens the body and merely makes them susceptible to other infections. Some mages go insane over time. In Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, seers that overwork themselves go temporarily blind.

You could have a certain amount of latent magical energy necessary for stabilising reality, and monkeying about with it too much in one place causes possible tears. This would require magic to be regulated, as magicians need to work together as far as magical consumption goes or risk damaging reality. Combined with a sickness based on how much magic you do, illegal magic could end up with somebody severely sick being found out by their illness and fined or jailed.


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## SeverinR (Jun 23, 2011)

In my world,
The individual energy a mage uses is limited but can use a mage battery for extra. Possibly a device to unite several mages energy.  Energy is based on ability, experience, and race of the mage. (or is it more efficient use of the set energy a person has?)
Ancient dragon mage would have alot more energy then a 17 year old apprentice human mage.

When they use to much of their energy, they act similar to a low blood sugar in a diabetic. Dizzy, disoriented, lose conciousness, etc. There is the possibility of magic pulling to much energy from a person that they die.
This applies to Arcane and mental magic, spiritual magic uses some bodily energy but most is from the god bestowing the power.
But this magic is limited by fear of drawing the gods attention for abusing the magic bestowed.

I do like the idea of a magical disease.  D&D had a magical creature that if you used a lot of magic would draw them to the spell user. Maybe a magical parasite?


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## BeigePalladin (Jun 24, 2011)

my magical limit works a bit like the desiese:

magic is a naturally building energy that things can tap into (though in most places it's so weak that casting anything worthy would take about 10 minutes), but 'mages' are capable of storing magical power in their own bodies.

the downside is that each mage has a limit, and there's no way to stop the energy from accumulating, so eventually , if they go too long without casting, they start to suffer effects ranging from illness, to uncrontroled magical outburst, to death at the worst case - and the stronger the mage the more catastrophic the effect.


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## Robdemanc (Jun 27, 2011)

Magic should be limited I think.  Or it should cause problems for the user whenever they use it.  That makes a more interesting story.  If magic was unlimited then there would be no conflict.


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## SeverinR (Jun 28, 2011)

It would limit non-magical problems,
but magical conflict could still occur.(mage vs mage/mage vs natural(magical reactions)/Mage versus self(weakness, megalomania, self doubt)
Kind of like superman and Kryptonite, very limiting.


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## Taytortots (Dec 23, 2011)

In my world, there are a few limits. If there are no limits and those with magic can do anything, well, first of all what's the fun in that? and second of all, there aren't many obstacles if the Warlocks can do anything.
The first limit I set is that magic can't effect health or death. GASP! I know, most people find this alarming for some reason. If the illness or wound is magic itself, it is possible that it can be healed. For example, say there's a poison made from magic, someone may be able to create an antidote with magic. But if someone is stabbed in the stomach, it can't be healed, and nothing can be done above what regular humans could do. 
The second limit is less a limit and more just the way magic works. Each person has an affinity. It could be elements, conjuring, whatever you can think of. They are the best at this thing, and very powerful when using this type of magic. They can use other types of magic, and in fact are free to attempt any of the different types, however they are not nearly as powerful, and some things are near impossible to do unless the Warlock is very powerful. 
Above that, if you use magic too much you will get exhausted and possibly faint. Depending on how much magic you use it could make you sick from the strain.


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## Sheilawisz (Dec 23, 2011)

Hello Draconian!! Your Magic sounds pretty interesting, I think your stories must be very good =) In my stories, my Mages are awfully powerful and they can do great things: They can fly at tens of thousands of miles per hour without effort, they can cause reality warping to get any effect or tricks that they can think of, they can make things appear out of nowhere, they can travel to other universes/realities and their weapons are so powerful that they can nuke cities easily and annihilate the souls of their victims.

The conflict in my stories comes from Mages vs Mages conflicts and wars, but they have indeed some limitations: When people die, it's very easy to give life back to dead bodies (or create new living bodies from nothing) but the Mages cannot guarantee that the souls of dead people will return to such bodies... Another limitation is about the way that Mages die when they get hit by their own soul-killing weapons, and other limits are about their travelling system between different realities =)

Also, people killed by their stuff remains dead, annihilated, soul destroyed forever!! No way to bring them back...

Apart from that, Magic in my stories is an unlimited power that comes out of nowhere and my stories work fine with it.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Dec 23, 2011)

Limitations depend on the source...
_
*CELESTIAL POWER:* ability to manipulate the energy formed in "The Celestial Sea," the space between the planets Pyros and Cryos when the two planets drift close enough to share an atmosphere_

What is done with this energy varies, as do the limitations.

Stopping time: if time is stopped, the "caster" and those who are in the time-stop bubble will be able to casually walk around during a paused moment in time. There is only so much air in the time-stop bubble. Lose track of time, and while your gasping for breathable air you may not have time to end the time-stop and save yourself.

Using celestial energy is also rather taxing. My telekinetic character tends to push himself to the point that he starts drooling profusely. This is followed by heavy bleeding, loss of bowel control... and if that humiliation isn't enough to stop him, the next symptom is death.


*DEMONIC MAGIC:*_ power granted by the forces of Hell_

I don't need to explain that this magic is powerful, and in order to obtain this power you have to do really bad things, and that you make a deal with a powerful demon who will own you when you eventually die and go to Hell.

Less obvious: it's possible to become a "protected." If you're a "protected," this means someone made a deal with a demonlord and needed you to get in on it. A "protected" is usually a weakling who, in the long run, is of no use to the demon anyway. The "protected" only serve one purpose for demonlords, which is to give false hope to those who sell their souls.


_*DIVINE STRENGTH:* a gift from God_

Healing is an ability used by angels and at least one mortal in my story. The Angel of Death can heal with the touch of a finger. She can also end a mortal's life just as easily.

A mortal with this blessing must be a pacifist. Even if he wanted to hurt someone, he'd need a weapon anyway. A punch would do more good than harm to the target. The big, muscular healer in my story literally can't hurt a fly. (There's a scene in which he swats a mosquito, and it flies away unharmed.)

The Legendary Sidekick accidentally breaks an ancient sword that will make its wielder "stronger than any other mortal, man or beast." He seems to absorb the weapon's power, but it turns out this is a divine gift. The catch: he is not allowed to take a human life. He may use his physical prowess to slay demons or use his tank-like body to protect humans. In a battle between factions of mortals, he must not kill, nor can he assist others to kill. His divine strength can be taken away in an instant if, for some reason, he proves that God was wrong about his ability to accept such a power without being corrupted by it.


_*CYBERNETIC ENHANCEMENT:* the scientific method of slowing time, obtaining superhuman strength, and cheating death
_
Not everyone can manipulate celestial energy. Not everyone is interested in Heaven or Hell. There are other ways to become powerful. The price: a cyborg can still function without a human soul, so most cyborgs are dead people with metal and wires.

The Immortal Emperor uses cryogenic sleep to prevent aging, and a device on his spine pumps adrenaline into his body to slow time (from his perspective) and increase his strength and speed considerably. However, he is a stone-faced man and the drugs and long-term sleep make him paranoid. Every few decades, he tends to kill those in his inner circle for fear they are plotting against him as his father's most loyal men did 1300 years ago.


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## ThinkerX (Dec 24, 2011)

Legendary Sidekick-

Your system sounds interesting.  More like SF than fantasy, in some respects.

Do psionic abilities - telekinesis, ESP, exist separately from your other types of 'magic'?  What psionic abilities do exist in your system? pyrokinesis? teleportation? 

Aside from the 'time stop' bit, just what is possible with the Celestial magic?  It sounds like something that could be used maybe only a few times a year.

Cyrogenics and cybernetics are usually found in SF.  Is this some sort of far future dystotpia?  Just asking, been toying with an SF tale or three myself with some characters possessed of psionic abilities.

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There is a 'quirk' - actually, more like a major element - in my system I didn't bring up in the other thread.  For a long while - as in millenia - magical events and people being born with a talent for magic was linked to the so called 'Demon Star', a asteroid (?) sized body with a highly erratic orbit that would occasionally bring it very close to the world.  When that happened, magic happened.  The number of people born with magical talent would increase three or four fold.  Usually, the Demon Star would make a close pass every twenty to fifty years....but at the time of my current tales, it has not been seen at all for nearly a century and a half.  Instead, the world has been subject to the annual 'Nights of Power' corresponding to the fall and spring equinoxes, when multicolored lights appear in the sky.

Some of those born during the fall equinox (Demon's Night, Ghost Night, Hell Night, ect) are born with the talent for dark sorcery and find it relatively easy to commune with dark (lovecraftian) spirits and creatures.  They have no moral qualms about inflicting nightmares and illness, conjuring ghosts and (lovecraftian) demons.  They are commonly called 'Darkborn', `Demonspawn' and similiar unkind terms.  By the time of the stories, many of those born during this period in the empire are put to death as infants (yeah, its harsh). Others are confined to monasteries far from anywhere.  Some of those outside the empire are seen as weapons...

Some of those born during the Spring Equinox (God Night, Angel Night, ect) have a talent for magic that is the polar opposite of the Darkborn.  These people (Lightborn, Godborn, Angelborn, ect) can work wonders of healing, channel positive energy, and commune with 'angels' (which do exist in the lovecraftian sense, though with a twist).  In the empire, they usually end up getting drafted into church service and eventually become traveling faith healers.  Some Godborn, under certain conditions, *can* take a human life as a last resort, but it is often a traumatic experience, and sometimes cost them their powers...for a while or for good.

The church holds that the Nights of Power came into being because the True God banished the Demon Star and replaced it with the Nights of Power by way of showing his supremacy.  They account for Demon Night being the way it is because of hmanities fallen nature and demonic influence, but some factions believe those born on Demon Night are not inherintly evil, merely 'possessed' (hence the monasteries).  However, this brings up another question for those willing to risk a potentially lethal charge of hearesy: if those born during Demon Night are not inherintly evil, but merely possessed, then might not the same be true for those born on God Night?  Might not their 'goodness' stem from 'possession' as well, and if so is it truly ethical?

Of course, the situation is not what it appears at all.

Anymore, though, Darkborn and Lightborn are seen as the dominant types of magicians.  The others, sometimes called 'goetics' or magicians, are seen by many as lingering relics of the past, whose magic simply is not as potent as that of the Godborn and Darkborn.  Indeed - with some justification - many are seen as little more than frauds or 'one spell wonders' - people who have a little magic, which doesn't work all that well, so they spice it up with alchemy and slight of hand.  


+


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## Legendary Sidekick (Dec 24, 2011)

ThinkerX,

Thanks for asking (though you may be sorry you asked)! Actually, our systems of magic may not be all that different, judging by the asteroid and references to angels and demons. Though using "good" or "evil" magic sounds like an accident of birth, which adds an interesting moral dilemma to your story.


To answer your questions:

Celestial power basically lets you manipulate time and space. My telekinetic* uses the energy to move objects, while his older brother* can slow, stop, or travel time. The time-travel is where the genre-hopping comes in, so there's a mix of sic-fi and fantasy in different parts of the story.

_*(You can see these guys in action in this Christmas-themed 1300-word story.)_

The main character also has a celestial power... but all he can really do is _see_ the energy. The upside to this: he eventually obtains enough (divine) strength to literally _smash_ his way into the energy field and open a time rift. But the downside to seeing this energy is that his view may be obscured by bright, iridescent waves of light which are invisible to nearly everyone else.

As for how often the power can be used: it's when the planets Pyros and Cryos are close enough to share an atmosphere, which happens every 666 years. They stay this close for no more than a decade until an event that occurs in the year 2019 stabilizes the distance between planets. Thus, the Brothers Thyme (who were born in the 2080's) spent their entire lives mastering celestial power.


Also, some abilities are not limited to one source. The Angel of Death's ability to heal or kill with the touch of a finger is similar to the Deathwish enchantment, which allows the wielder of an enchanted blade to instantly kill a target... unless he does not wish the target to die. In that case, the target would exist on another plane (spirit plane? - I never bothered to name it), then carve his way out using his own enchanted blade. The enchanted blade is usually referred to as a "suicide blade" or "suicide sword," since those who use Deathwish often stab themselves in order to teleport.

My cultist character can also use a type of telekinesis.


There is also a limitation that makes writing time-travel fun: a soul cannot be erased from existence. What this means: if you go back in time and knock someone up, that can't be undone. If someone else goes back in time to kill the mother when she was an eight-year-old girl, he's doomed to fail.

Also, if someone travels to a time in which he already exists, his soul can only occupy one body at a time. Either the younger or the older self will fall into a coma and "dream" of his counterpart's experience. Those who travel time, die, and are reborn in the future may occasionally dream of a past life.


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## ThinkerX (Dec 24, 2011)

> Thanks for asking (though you may be sorry you asked)! Actually, our systems of magic may not be all that different, judging by the asteroid and references to angels and demons. Though using "good" or "evil" magic sounds like an accident of birth, which adds an interesting moral dilemma to your story.



That is a issue that the more astute of my characters wrestle with.  They note that some Darkborn are not psychopathic spell slingers...not exactly upstanding citizens, but not monsters, either.  Likewise, some of the Godborn...attempt...to act in a 'thuggish' manner now and again.  Church propaganda - at least within the empire, though, doesn't really allow for such.

There is a 'circle' of mages in my world which ended up in extremely serious trouble with the church because they were experimenting with combining the abilities of Darkborn and Godborn (the circle incliuded both Darkborn and Godborn).  The results were...interesting. (and had the more paranoid elements of the church hunting around for firewood).

A nation neighboring the empire made it a point to recruit all the darkborn they possibly could for their invasion (the war in the background of my stories) which left deep scars all around.  



> There is also a limitation that makes writing time-travel fun: a soul cannot be erased from existence. What this means: if you go back in time and knock someone up, that can't be undone. If someone else goes back in time to kill the mother when she was an eight-year-old girl, he's doomed to fail.
> 
> Also, if someone travels to a time in which he already exists, his soul can only occupy one body at a time. Either the younger or the older self will fall into a coma and "dream" of his counterpart's experience. Those who travel time, die, and are reborn in the future may occasionally dream of a past life



Ah...paradoxes. Pesky things, those...


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## Sheilawisz (Dec 26, 2011)

Two planets that drift close enough to share an atmosphere?? I like that =) Your Magic system sounds very good and different to many others Legendary Sidekick, I am trying to imagine what the sky would look like in your planets when they are that close and I bet that it would look superb!!

In my stories, planets are very likely to exist in the Celestial Realms (what my characters call the stars) which is the space full of stars and other celestial bodies about a million light years above the endless sea... this starry sky is endless too in all directions except down and up, since above the stars there is nothing but unlimited darkness frozen forever- The worlds that appear in my stories are actually huge islands in the endless sea, they have their own system of moons and a little sun and my Mages have never seen what a planet is =)

About time travels and paradoxes, I really dislike that in any story and I do not include such things in my Magic (in my opinion, if they have reality warping then time-related magic is not needed) the reason that I give in my stories for my Mages not travelling to the past is that the past is not there, it does not exist, it's not a place that you can travel to or change in any way... My personal theory is that if you travel to the past you would actually be travelling to a separate universe/reality that would be identical to the past of your own universe, and so anything you do would not affect your universe at all.

The immortality of souls seems to be respected in every Fantasy story that I have heard about!! Anyone else here in Mythic Scribes has included soul-killing magical weapons in your stories??


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## sashamerideth (Dec 26, 2011)

My magic is a bit more subdued,it isn't the main focus of the story, nine is about character development, what happens when someone not used to power gets power, and what power friends and those we love hold.  Sure, a Mage can obliterate a city, if they knew how, but reading about the destruction of a million people jst doesn't have the same impact as the sudden, unexpected death of a character that the reader has grown to love.

As for the last question about a soul destroying spell or device, in my story, anything will do that; no souls, no spirits, no afterlife, once you're dead, you are dead.  Sure many of my people are superstitious and have a belief in the afterlife, there just isn't one.

Sent from my Blade using Forum Runner


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## Sheilawisz (Dec 26, 2011)

sashamerideth said:


> As for the last question about a soul destroying spell or device, in my story, anything will do that; no souls, no spirits, no afterlife, once you're dead, you are dead.  Sure many of my people are superstitious and have a belief in the afterlife, there just isn't one.


A Fantasy world without souls, spirits or an afterlife?? That's quite original =) Sometimes all of these things can make a story more complicated than perhaps it should be...


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## sashamerideth (Dec 26, 2011)

Sheilawisz said:
			
		

> A Fantasy world without souls, spirits or an afterlife?? That's quite original =) Sometimes all of these things can make a story more complicated than perhaps it should be...



Exactly why magic happens, but it is not a focus in my story. It's the people and the experiences that matter to me.

Heck, we've got hundreds of millions, if not billions of people on this planet that think there is something after death.  Doesn't mean that there really is.

Sent from my Blade using Forum Runner


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## Sheilawisz (Dec 26, 2011)

My personal theory is that consciousness is a form of energy, and energy is supposed to never be destroyed, just changing from one form to another =) In my worlds, souls are described as "energy of consciousness" and the Afterlife, at least for common people, is very similar to a world of dreams or perhaps like a very powerful lucid dreaming experience... The magical weapons work by annihilating whatever that they touch, both matter and energy, and so even this energy of consciousness itself can be reduced to nothingness.

I agree that People and Experiences in a story are really the most important part, but Magic is fun anyway =)


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## Leif GS Notae (Dec 27, 2011)

The question I think is standing out to me is the sickness and what levels they are. If you summon a great demon, let's say, do you get pustules and tumors that will kill you? If you groom puppies with a brush you summon from the ether, do you suffer the same thing?

I think once you get a scaled list of issues and maladies, you can use that to guide you to a conclusion. These are some good ideas though, it seems like you are almost there. I hope you can get it ironed out, I would love to hear what you have decided.


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## Sheilawisz (Dec 27, 2011)

Leif GS Notae said:


> The question I think is standing out to me is the sickness and what levels they are. If you summon a great demon, let's say, do you get pustules and tumors that will kill you? If you groom puppies with a brush you summon from the ether, do you suffer the same thing?
> 
> I think once you get a scaled list of issues and maladies, you can use that to guide you to a conclusion. These are some good ideas though, it seems like you are almost there. I hope you can get it ironed out, I would love to hear what you have decided.


I agree, Draconian's idea of a disease that only magically gifted people can get is very good and intriguing!! =) I have included magical diseases in my stories, but they are actually a weapon that Mages sometimes use to kill each other and they can affect common people as well.


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## Sheilawisz (Jan 2, 2012)

Hello Draconian, I am curious and I have a few questions for you:

When your Mages attack with fire or lightning, what colour is the fire or lightning that they throw?? How much damage are they capable of causing with those attacks?? What special power does these fire and lightning have, or are they just regular fire and lightning attacks??

Can common people fight off and even kill Mages?? What protections can be used effectively against magical attacks??


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## OrionDarkwood (Jan 5, 2012)

Draconian said:


> Hi, I'm new and was wondering what magical limits should I have for my story.Like should I have an unlimited magical power source or should I have something that prevents them from using other peoples magic?
> Currently magic in my world can only be used by a select few and certain descendants of a magical race.They mainly can do stuff like heal the swords wounds or broken bones and maybe poison. They can create fire or shoot lighting from their hands. They also can freeze and heat stuff too, along with create gusts of winds. Very large groups of mages can also distort space and open portals to other places. Along with that I have a sickness that only magically gifted people can contract. So i'm eager to see your rules or limitations for magic and what magic can do in your world. So feel free to post me your ideas and feedback.



I have always looked at magic as a unlimited power source channeled via a mortal body. So the power is unlimited however a mortal shell can only handle so much. Hence why the gods are so powerful but even they are limited in what they can do with such a source. In my world of Kaneon the typical process of casting a spell is as follows:

1. Mentally draw the constructs for the different elements of the spell such as fireball requires a construct for air and a construct for fire
2. Mentally and Physical prepare oneself for tapping into the power of magic (hence why mages rarely wear armor it doesn't allow for the full range of motion and/or saps some of the power of magic aka short circuit)
3. Feed the power to the constructs until charged and release

Of course this happens in seconds and their are other ways to power a spell such as divine power or in the cases of Bloodmages get their power by infusing magical power into blood they collect.


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## Draconian (Jan 8, 2012)

Hello Sheilawisz, To answer your question the fire and lighting color is different depending on the mage that cast it. The damage of these attacks is equivalent to how much energy the caster puts into the spell. Their is more than one kind of fire spell, lightning however is one spell that has many variations. The common people won't have to worry much about most mages  because their too busy trying to fight somethings and recruit new members, also they have factions that disagree. Yes, common people can kill mages because they are not invulnerable, but it's not always easy. But on the other hand since the common people outnumber the mages, they can probably kill them. (Ratio of mages to common people 1 to 400) A common protection against magic is bow and arrow because arrows are faster than most spells. Also distance is a very hampering thing for mages because velocity equals energy. So they have to put more energy into spells to make them go farther. Their is also a very rare staff that is used by cloaked individuals that absorb magic.


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## Sheilawisz (Jan 10, 2012)

Thanks for your Answer, Draconian!! That was very interesting, I like your Mages =) Sometimes I feel that it would be better for me to write stories with magic and mages like that, with more limits, easier to imagine, also easier for the readers to relate to such characters... Anyway I cannot change my stories now, and I am way too obssesed with power...

My magic can take four different colours: Silver, violet, blue and white (this includes their weapons and also when they are just playing with tricks and stuff) and it can be invisible too =)

I have another question!! Can they fly? And in case they can, what is it like? How fast can they fly??


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## Draconian (Jan 13, 2012)

Some mages in fact can fly, it is simply using energy to generate a *constant* flow of magic from your feet. If the typical mage used this spell they would be exhausted in minutes. Also steering for a spell like this is trial and error which means practice. It's not like they have wings, however their a type of mage that can fly much easier. Their called windmancers, they use wind magic. Their is also a race with magical abilites for flying.


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## grahamguitarman (Jan 14, 2012)

Hmm the magical sickness thing is a good plot device.  Personally I like to see magic in stories but don't like to see wizards become too powerful.  Once you have magic users with seemingly unlimited powers then it becomes hard to deliver a good plot without getting all deus ex machina.
Much better I think to make magic have greater personal consequences for the user the greater the power of the spell.  Or to simply have more limitations on what magic can achieve in the first place, thereby making magic less godlike.  

Consider Lord of the Rings, Gandalf uses very little magic at all,  much of what he does is about knowledge not power.  If he had the kind of awesome powers that some writers want to give their wizards, then the lord of the rings would be a very short story indeed.  Most of the battles would have been over in minutes (zap there goes an entire legion of Orcs).  Frodo would have had no journey to speak of (come here hobbit and I'll whisk you to mount doom in seconds).  In fact there would have been no need for the supporting cast of elves men and ents at all.  Because Gandalf could have single handedly sorted the whole thing out and been home in time for tea.

Having mega powerful wizards with awesome magic may be good in world of warcraft or the like.  But for novel writing purposes the greater the magic, the more counterproductive it is in storytelling terms.  You just leave readers wondering why wizard x doesn't just go in and sort it out during his lunchbreak, and save all the real characters having to get so het up.

Edit:  just noticed the bit about magicians getting exhausted from flying too much.  I gave one of my characters the ability to fly magically and she has similar limitations too.  Also there are severe limits on what she can carry with her, making flight quite impractical if she wants to travel with even the most basic essentials.


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## Sheilawisz (Jan 14, 2012)

@Draconian: Thanks for satisfying my curiosity about your Mages and magic!! =) I always love to hear about what Magic is like in other Fantasy worlds, and it seems to me that yours sounds particularly attractive- Well, we have very different magic and, like I said before, sometimes I feel that it would be good to write stories with more limited magic because the readers find it easier to relate to characters like that.

Flying is a power that I am particularly obsessed with: My Mages fly at high speeds sometimes exceeding forty thousand miles per hour, and they can keep flying as long as they want travelling huge distances across my endless sea... It's like unlimited power that comes out of nowhere (just like they can throw one magical nuke after another) and I love to imagine what it would feel like to fly like that...

@Grahamguitarman: When I first explored Mythic Scribes, I was rather surprised by how many Fantasy writers here dislike and sometimes even hate super mages- I still cannot understand why this happens, but I think that it's simply because, both for the writer and the readers, it's easier to relate to characters with limited powers or without magic at all.

I agree that the story of Lord of the Rings and so many similar stories would just not work with super mages included (my Mages would just nuke the ring, nuke Sauron, nuke Mordor and get it over with in about three minutes) so there would be no story at all, but it all depends on the style of your story and the problems that your characters are going to find as they advance in their adventures.

Different styles of Magic can be applied to different styles of stories, and even super mages can be successfully included in a good Fantasy story if you know how to do it =)


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## Anders Ã„mting (Jan 15, 2012)

Honestly, I don't think limits to magic is as interesting as figuring out what magic is, how it fits into the story and what style you are going for.

I had this one story where magic was very subtle and vague. I didn't even call it magic, there wasn't a proper word for it. It was just these special talents people had that made them supernaturally good at certain things. One was good at finding things, another was good at unlocking things that were locked, and so on. There were magical swords, but even they were just kinda special in that they excelled in a certain thing, like a blade that delivered more momentum in its blows then it should and recieved less momentum then it should in parries. This was all because I was trying to build a very mysterious atmosphere.

Another project I had going was radically different, taking place in a setting where magic was based on the four elements and where skilled mages became blatantly superhuman: We're talking flying, throwing giant blasts of fire, teleporting by bending space, conjuring antimatter and a lot of other stuff like that. That's my "magical superheroes" type setting.

In my latest project, magicians are basically psychics, and nearly all magic concerns the mind, the spirit, perceptions and enhancing ones physical body. There's no throwing fireballs from your fingertips and so on. Though, a seperate part of the system does allow you to gain one individual special power.

I don't think I've ever thought about it as imposing limits, though - any limits are just a product of the style I was going for: I don't want my mages to throw fire from their hands, for example, because it doesn't fit the concept I have in mind. 



Sheilawisz said:


> A Fantasy world without souls, spirits or an afterlife?? That's quite original =) Sometimes all of these things can make a story more complicated than perhaps it should be...



You know, somehow it always bothers me a bit how many fantasy stories make a point of there definitely being some sort of afterlife, or that gods are definitely real. (Or not, as it were.) I personally tend to try my best not to confirm nor invalidate the belief systems of my characters, unless the plot absolutely demands it, which is exceedingly rare. It just doesn't feel like something I should have an opinion on, if that make sense.


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## Evilyn (Jan 16, 2012)

"I agree with Black Dragon, that there should not be unlimited magic. It can really distort a story and cause endless plot problems and the creation/resolution of conflict.

Draconian, you appear to have the basics established, but you should really have them refined--how and why a user of magic contracts the sickness. The cause of rifts opening. Although the reader may not end up being privy to the knowledge, having such will keep the world and the way magic functions consistent.

Revealing how magic 'works' is something that can be presented over time in the novel, as needed for the reader to understand. It's often something readers have an interest in, and will keep them reading to find out more.

In the world contained within my novel Flank Hawk, users of magic take on/suffer effects based on the magic they use and how powerful they become. Seers, for example, lose their physical sight as they increase in magical strength/skill. Enchanters are more susceptible to magic used upon/against them, and often hide their identity/fact that they are an enchanter. How 'fun' would it be to become a powerful necromancer?" - Quoted from TWErvin2





I like your take on side effects caused by magic users, I definitely agree that having limits is better. Everyone needs a weakness be it physical or mental, makes the characters more realistic and therefore easier to relate to.

Evi


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## Anders Ã„mting (Jan 16, 2012)

Evilyn said:


> I like your take on side effects caused by magic users, I definitely agree that having limits is better. Everyone needs a weakness be it physical or mental, makes the characters more realistic and therefore easier to relate to.
> 
> Evi



Well, I think you are talking about personality flaws here, not actual "kryptonite" type weaknesses or a literal physical weakness like going blind or whatever. That kind of thing can actually backfire - for example, I'm not blind, so I don't relate very well to blind people. That's the thing about relating; it's relative.

Personally, I don't really like the idea of power always requiring some kind of price, nor do I think that makes it more interesting. Power is just power, and some people happen to have it just because and how they decide to use it, well, _that's_ the interesting part. To quote Abraham Lincon: "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." 

It's actually not that hard to make very powerful people relatable, all you need to do is make them act and think like humans. If you can make your readers think: "Yeah, that's probably what I would have done if _I _had unlimited power", then congratulations, your characters are relatable. They only stop being relatable when the story becomes more about the power and less about the person.

Anyway, I think what I was clumsily trying to say in me previous post was: If you try to see magic as a system that operates in a specific way, it will have inherent limitations simply because the practicioners need to adher to that system. The only limits your really _have _to concern yourself with are the limits of what you want to be possible in your story. The rest is either a consequence of power, or mere extra flavor.


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## Sheilawisz (Jan 16, 2012)

Hello Anders =) You have a good point about making very powerful characters relatable, by the means of making them act and think like humans so the readers can feel more related to them... even if those characters have super magic!! I have a little problem with that especially because my characters are not human (no humans in my stories at all) but I hope that I have made my Mages a little relatable after all =)

Talking about Magic and magical limits again, I do not understand why almost everyone here seems to view Magic as a power that most always be limited, following a near scientifical system full of rules and logical explanations- Just why??

After all _it's Magic!!_

Yes, some limits are needed and even my super Mages have certain limits (especially about what their own weapons do to them, the way that they die because of those weapons, why it's not easy to come back and also about their travelling system between different realities) but most people here in Mythic Scribes have magic that is way too limited =(


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## grahamguitarman (Jan 16, 2012)

Sheilawisz;24977

Talking about Magic and magical limits again said:
			
		

> it's Magic!![/I]
> (



Lol I've started a thread about this question earlier today, asking why we need to go into such scientific detail to explain magic, instead of just having magic with a bit of mystery to it.  My magic users do have limitations, but thats not because of a system of rules or physics, its because they simply can't.  I don't think I have to explain to my readers why their magic is limited, anymore than I have to explain why even the best athletes can't jump over buildings.  It just is. 

If your story is about a world of supernatural beings that all have unlimited magic, then I guess that would work within its own framework.  Its when you have godlike beings in a mortal world that you have to consider the consequenses to plot, and have to explain why x didn't just zap y's entire army in the first chapter.

One question I do have though - how has your world  survived without a major magical catastrophe tearing the whole world apart?  I mean we are only mere mortals and we destroy our world, often tearing it apart in wars - imagine what we would do with REAL power!  - just curious

Edit:  I do agree howver that sometimes it is good to see magic fireworks unleashed, one of my favourite short stories is by Ursula K Le Guin and is called The Rule of Names.  In that there is a wonderful magical battle that really gives you a sense of wonder at the magic used, along with a nicely amusing ending


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## Anders Ã„mting (Jan 16, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> Talking about Magic and magical limits again, I do not understand why almost everyone here seems to view Magic as a power that most always be limited, following a near scientifical system full of rules and logical explanations- Just why??
> 
> After all _it's Magic!!_



Hm, perhaps "system" wasn't the best choice of words... To me it's a question of scale and style. Depending on the story, I might want magic to be flashy, or I might want it to be more mystical. Maybe I want my magicians to be fairly low key, or maybe I want them to be leveling cities and throwing buildings at each other. Obviously, if I gave my characters unlimited powers, they would be gods and that would limit the kind of stories I would be able to write about them. So, that's what "magic limits" mean to me: scale and style.

Though, to answer your question, making magic very clearly defined can certainly be desirable - that second concept I mentioned took place in a Harry Potter-style magic school, and while at first I didn't want to complicate things, I found I had to make the magic system rather defined simply because my main character was taking magic classes and actually studying it.

Also, having the laws of magic in mind when you write helps you from writing yourself into a corner or contradicting yourself, which is very easy to do if you are just making things up as you go along.  That doesn't mean you have to spell it out in the story, it's enough that you know enough ahead of time to keep things consistent.

"Magic" is just a word, anyway. It doesn't have to mean "mysterious."


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## Sheilawisz (Jan 17, 2012)

grahamguitarman said:


> One question I do have though - how has your world  survived without a major magical catastrophe tearing the whole world apart?  I mean we are only mere mortals and we destroy our world, often tearing it apart in wars - imagine what we would do with REAL power!  - just curious


Thanks for your question and your interest =) My answer is that my Mages have their own Queens and they let the people have their own Queens as well- The Mages live in their own cities in very isolated areas (usually, high mountains) and they rarely visit towns and cities of the common people, so you don't see them killing people and nuking cities every now and then...

Sometimes they have indeed attacked cities and caused great destruction in their world (which happened in my first novel) but not enough to completely destroy their own world, they are not interested in doing that!! Also, I do not have only one world, but an entire collection of them: These worlds are continent-size islands in an endless sea, and my stories talk about especially two of these worlds that are separated by a distance of about 146000 miles.

These two worlds are inhabited by two rival cultures of Mages that hate each other, and they had a war like two thousand years before my first novel starts- One of the worlds was devastated to the point that it was not recognizable, and the other, victim of a surprise attack that managed to penetrate its defenses, was totally annihilated...

The Mages that lost the war later created a new world, but this kind of catastrophes are not common in my stories!!

@Anders: I agree that having Magic clearly defined in your mind and knowing what your characters can and cannot do is very important to write good stories- My point is that many Fantasy writers are viewing Magic as a scientifical thing full of limitations and I do not really like that =P


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## Anders Ã„mting (Jan 18, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> @Anders: I agree that having Magic clearly defined in your mind and knowing what your characters can and cannot do is very important to write good stories- My point is that many Fantasy writers are viewing Magic as a scientifical thing full of limitations and I do not really like that =P



While I see you point, I don't think it's a matter of liking it or not liking it - either way you're making the same mistake. We shouldn't have opinions on what magic "should be", as a definition of the term. Rather, magic should be tailored to suit the story you're trying to tell. Sometimes you _want _magic to be detailed down to a scientific level, sometimes you don't. But neither approach is inherently more desirable then the other.


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## sashamerideth (Jan 18, 2012)

I think I will echo something I recently read on Brian Sanderson's blog. 

It isn't really what magic in your story can do. It is more interesting what your magic cannot do. He used the example of Superman. What made him and his magic (loose term), more interesting were his weaknesses, Kryptonite and his moral code, so what he could not do, what his weakness was, and more importantly, what he would not do. 

Just his thoughts, but I do agree that it is the limits that make magic interesting for me.

Sent from my Blade using Forum Runner


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## Sheilawisz (Jan 18, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> While I see you point, I don't think it's a matter of liking it or not liking it - either way you're making the same mistake. We shouldn't have opinions on what magic "should be", as a definition of the term. Rather, magic should be tailored to suit the story you're trying to tell. Sometimes you _want _magic to be detailed down to a scientific level, sometimes you don't. But neither approach is inherently more desirable then the other.


Well, I agree Anders: The beauty of Magic is that it can be anything that you like or you need for your specific stories =) It's alright to have many different magic systems in Fantasy, but what I do not agree with is that Magic is becoming way too scientifical these days =P

Sorry, I am just too deeply in love with mysterious, mystical and powerful magic!!

@Sashamerideth: Certainly, what your characters _cannot_ do is a key element for any Fantasy story =)


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## Draconian (Jan 19, 2012)

Sheliawisz, you like super mages however, super mages need rules to exist otherwise they wouldn't be super mages but gods. 

For example, what would you say about a magical race with godlike powers but side effects that lead to this race's extinction. Power *always* comes at a cost, sometimes that cost is obvious other times that cost is subtle..........


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## Sheilawisz (Jan 20, 2012)

Draconian said:


> Sheliawisz, you like super mages however, super mages need rules to exist otherwise they wouldn't be super mages but gods. For example, what would you say about a magical race with godlike powers but side effects that lead to this race's extinction. Power *always* comes at a cost, sometimes that cost is obvious other times that cost is subtle.


Well Draconian, I agree that certain rules and limitations are needed even if you have super mages in your stories =) I have included indeed some limits and rules in my Magic, otherwise the stories would not work at all because they would be able to do anything they wanted.

What exactly do you mean by gods??

If we could travel back in time to the Bronze Age with fighter jets and nuclear bombs, we would perhaps be considered some form of gods- In my worlds, the mages are considered mages by the common people (well, I accept that sometimes they are regarded as demons) but there are no gods at all, and since these mages can be killed by their own weapons and people have witnessed this happening, it's a well-known fact that they are not invulnerable.

Another point is that these mages have a tendency to solve their problems by direct and forceful means, often causing more trouble than they had before and sometimes getting in a heck of a trouble because of their own freak behavior =) They are certainly not "perfect beings" and some readers would say that they are just freaking nuts!!

Gods should be something more "perfect" than that, in my opinion =)


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## grahamguitarman (Jan 21, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> Gods should be something more "perfect" than that, in my opinion =)



Lol have you never read Norse mythology!  the norse gods were about as selfish and badly behaved as you can get!


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## Sheilawisz (Jan 21, 2012)

@Graham: I love Norse mythology =) My fav story is one about Thor's hammer getting stolen by the ice giants, and the king of the giants wanted to marry Freya so they want her in exchange of the hammer- then Thor is dressed up as Freya and he goes to meet the giants so he can recover the hammer by himself, it's so fun!!

It's interesting how the Norse gods do have some limitations and problems, and they cannot do anything they want just like that =)


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## grahamguitarman (Jan 22, 2012)

Yeah - Thats why my own mythology is inspired by Norse gods - its just more fun to write LOL.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Jan 22, 2012)

Draconian said:


> Power *always* comes at a cost



Oh, I'm not so sure about that. After all, does intelligence come at a cost? Does beauty, or strenght? 

What is power anyway, other then yet another advantage one man has over another?



grahamguitarman said:


> Lol have you never read Norse mythology!  the norse gods were about as selfish and badly behaved as you can get!



Well, the thing about that is that the word "god" gives the wrong impression these days. People are too used to the Abrahamic model, with gods as a separate class at the top, followed by lesser being like angels, and so on. The problem is that this heirarchy doesn't work on a lot of pagan religions.

The Aesir were _vaettir_, or wights. Spirit people, basically. They were a mere tribe within a much vaster class of psychopomp beings. True, they were powerful -the most powerful of their kind- and people prayed to them, but they were also people. They married and they argued and they conspired and they had serious personality flaws, and sometimes they fought wars with other tribes of spirit people like the Jotuns or the Vanir.



Sheilawisz said:


> @Graham: I love Norse mythology =) My fav story is one about Thor's hammer getting stolen by the ice giants, and the king of the giants wanted to marry Freya so they want her in exchange of the hammer



See, that's what I'm talking about. Isn't it a bit weird that an _ice giant_ would try to marry a _goddess?_ Not to mention that he almost got away with it?

That kind of thing makes a lot more sense once you recognise that the Jotun and Aesir weren't really that different. The norse people didn't just believe in gods, they believed in a whole _supernatural world_. That's what I like about pagan mythologies - it's story-telling elevated to religion.


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## Sheilawisz (Jan 23, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> See, that's what I'm talking about. Isn't a bit weird that an _ice giant_ would try to marry a _goddess?_ Not to mention that he almost got away with it?
> 
> That kind of thing makes a lot more sense once you recognise that the Jotun and Aesir weren't really that different. The norse people didn't just believe in gods, they believed in a whole _supernatural world_. That's what I like about pagan mythologies - it's story-telling elevated to religion.


That was beautiful, Anders!! XD!


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## Steerpike (Jan 23, 2012)

I don't mind either high-powered magic or low-powered magic, but there have to be some consistent logic governing it (and the world), or at least the appearance of such, or I'd throw the book in the trash. Unless it was meant to be a parody or something.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Jan 23, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> That was beautiful, Anders!! XD!



For comparisson, check out the Japanese Shinto religion. It's sometimes said to have over a million gods, except their word for god, _kami_,  doesn't quite mean "god" the way we think of it. A kami can be anything from the minor nature spirit of a rock or tree, and right up to the sovereign sun goddess herself. It's kinda the same basic idea.

In fact, I sometimes wonder if Shinto is more or less what the norse religion would have looked like if it survived to modern times.


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## grahamguitarman (Jan 24, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> For comparisson, check out the Japanese Shinto religion. It's sometimes said to have over a thousand gods, except their word for god, _kami_,  doesn't quite mean "god" the way we think of it. A kami can be anything from the minor nature spirit of a rock or tree, and right up to the sovereign sun goddess herself. It's kinda the same basic idea.
> 
> In fact, I sometimes wonder if Shinto is more or less what the norse religion would have looked like if it survived to modern times.



Agreed, the norse religions would probably be more like that had they survived the might of the holy roman empire, it would certainly be a more interesting world to live in lol.  The minute you start to give one entity domain over all, you seriously distort the nature of what it means to be a god.


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## myrddin173 (Jan 30, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:
			
		

> Oh, I'm not so sure about that. After all, does intelligence come at a cost? Does beauty, or strenght?



Well for intelligence and strength I would say the cost would be the time it takes to acquire them.  I also wouldn't call beauty a power it is a natural trait but if I had to come up with one I would say the jealousy of others.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Jan 30, 2012)

myrddin173 said:


> Well for intelligence and strength I would say the cost would be the time it takes to acquire them.



I fear you are confusing intelligence with education.

As for strenght, let me put it this way: Supposed one man is born with a naturally large body, and another is born small and skinny. The larger man, most likely, will be stronger then the small one. I'd argue he didn't pay any particular price for that strenght: it was simply a matter of luck.

Likewise, if one man is born with magic power and another isn't, why should that magic come at a price?



> I also wouldn't call beauty a power it is a natural trait but if I had to come up with one I would say the jealousy of others.



I think that's reaching for it. Jealously is a problem in other people, not a problem in beauty itself.

Anyway, I think you misunderstand: I'm not saying beauty is the same thing as power. I'm saying that they are both _advantages, _and I don't see why the advantage of power has to "always come with a price" when other advantages like natural beauty or talent clearly do not.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jan 30, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> I fear you are confusing intelligence with education.



Well, intelligence is really just like any other ability humans have: if you don't use it regularly, it withers.



> Likewise, if one man is born with magic power and another isn't, why should that magic come at a price?



In real life, it doesn't have to. But stories have to be dramatic, and a protagonist who's powerful with no downside is not very interesting.


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