# How dare you...



## BWFoster78 (Jan 31, 2013)

I keep running into this:

How dare he (do whatever)

Should it have a period or a question mark?

On one hand, it is a question; see the "how."  On the other, it's a statement that's not made in an attempt to actually elicit an answer but rather to express annoyance.

What think you?


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## Ireth (Jan 31, 2013)

I typically use an exclamation mark, as it's an expression of anger. "How dare you defy me!" etc.


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 31, 2013)

Ireth said:


> I typically use an exclamation mark, as it's an expression of anger. "How dare you defy me!" etc.



It just doesn't look right either way...


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## CupofJoe (Jan 31, 2013)

It really is a rhetorical statement... you all ready know how... so I'd go with the exclamation point.
Unless you can find a way to use the Interrobang... ! and ? combined...


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## Penpilot (Jan 31, 2013)

No grammar expert, but to me, it's a statement, so I'd use a period. If you say it out loud like you were asking a question, it doesn't sound right.

Compare saying this out loud...

"How dare you (speak to me)."

"Who cares."

with

"How dare you (speak to me)?"

"Who cares?"

The second just doesn't work the way I think it should work.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Jan 31, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I keep running into this:
> 
> How dare he (do whatever)
> 
> ...



It's a rhetorical question, but still a question. Thus it should have a question mark. It doesn't matter if you expect an answer or not. What matters is that it's phrased as a question.

While on the subject, this is a pet peeve of mine: When writers can't tell the differance between a question and a statement and gets it wrong. Writing something like "How dare you?" as if it wasn't a question is one way, though it's also true in reverse. 

For example: "I wonder what's for breakfast" is _not _a question, it's stating a fact about yourself, so it shouldn't have a question mark. Lots of people get that wrong. Note that this is true even if you are expecting an answer: You are using the statement as a question, but that doesn't actually make it one.

On the other hand, "What's for breakfast?" is a question, as is "Can you tell me what's for breakfast?"

Now, there _are_ some sentances that can be ambigious about wether they are statements or questions, but in those cases it's usually more that it can be a statement _or_ a question depending on the tone of voice used. Example:



> "He dares challenge me?"





> "He dares challenge me!"



The former imples a surprised, doubting tone. The later does not, and is just stating a fact. It's the difference between "Is this true?" and "This is true!"

Another thing that really irks me is when the author feels the need to actually point out that something isn't a question, as if we readers weren't capable of figuring that out on our own. 

Like this:



> "You were kissing my husband," Janet said. It wasn't a question.



Don't do that. We know it wasn't a question, because you didn't use a question mark. And this:



> "You were kissing my husband?" Janet said. It wasn't a question.



_Never_ do that. That is just wrong.


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## wordwalker (Jan 31, 2013)

It could be _"How dare you?!"_ with both marks; I think skipping either one looks incomplete, but both looks cluttered.

Actually, it sounds like you're talking what comes out more as a sentence fragment, unlike a full _"How dare you defy me!"_ complete sentence. So I'd put it as _"How dare you..."_ or _"How dare you--"_ (The difference is that the first is trailing off, the second chopped off more quickly.)

(Not to be confused with the people who've taken _"What the hell"_s that had been in a similar pseudoquestioning mode, and started pronouncing them as straight exclamations. The outraged _"Dude, what the hell!"_ that's almost the opposite of a resigned _"Oh what the hell!"_)


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## Penpilot (Jan 31, 2013)

Here's a link to a Grammar Girl post on rhetorical questions. Grammar Girl : Do Rhetorical Questions Need a Question Mark? :: Quick and Dirty Tips â„¢ And she says a rhetorical question can end with a question mark or an exclamation mark, and if used in dialogue, a period.


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## Xaysai (Jan 31, 2013)

I think it really depends on the emotion being conveyed.

If its an angry "How dare you" then clearly it should be punctuated with an Is Larger Than symbol followed by a Colon followed by a Left Bracket, such as this:



> >:[



If its a shocked "How dare you" then clearly it is Colon followed by a capital O, such as:



> :O



You're welcome!


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## Anders Ã„mting (Feb 1, 2013)

wordwalker said:


> It could be _"How dare you?!"_ with both marks; I think skipping either one looks incomplete, but both looks cluttered.



I'd put the exclamation mark first: "How dare you!?" I think that looks neater. Anyway, this is for when the character is essentially shouting the question.



> Actually, it sounds like you're talking what comes out more as a sentence fragment, unlike a full _"How dare you defy me!"_ complete sentence. So I'd put it as _"How dare you..."_ or _"How dare you--"_ (The difference is that the first is trailing off, the second chopped off more quickly.)
> 
> (Not to be confused with the people who've taken _"What the hell"_s that had been in a similar pseudoquestioning mode, and started pronouncing them as straight exclamations. The outraged _"Dude, what the hell!"_ that's almost the opposite of a resigned _"Oh what the hell!"_)



I would argue that all these are questions and should have question marks, though I admit I might skip the question marks for the fragmented sentences anyway simply because it actually looks better that way.

However, I must insist that "What the hell?" is always a question, no matter how you use it.


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## Mindfire (Feb 1, 2013)

In situations like this, I tend to be a bit of a heretic. Rather than slavish obedience to the rules of English grammar, your objective ought to be (I think) improving the flow of the sentence, and thus it's readability. Grammar is a means, not an end. A tool. Books are meant for reading, not dissection by grammarians after all. Poor grammar is only a concern if it harms the reading experience. I often use commas where they technically shouldn't be because it improves the rhythm of the sentence or makes the reader pause at a certain place. 

So, since English teachers are likely to be a very small portion of your audience, I'd advise you to put grammar aside temporarily here and instead ask which version of the sentence "sounds" better in you head. That's the right version.


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## BWFoster78 (Feb 1, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> In situations like this, I tend to be a bit of a heretic. Rather than slavish obedience to the rules of English grammar, your objective ought to be (I think) improving the flow of the sentence, and thus it's readability. Grammar is a means, not an end. A tool. Books are meant for reading, not dissection by grammarians after all. Poor grammar is only a concern if it harms the reading experience. I often use commas where they technically shouldn't be because it improves the rhythm of the sentence or makes the reader pause at a certain place.
> 
> So, since English teachers are likely to be a very small portion of your audience, I'd advise you to put grammar aside temporarily here and instead ask which version of the sentence "sounds" better in you head. That's the right version.



I would tend to disagree with this completely.

1. Grammar rules tend to exist for a reason.
2. Truthfully, it makes the author look stupid when they break them.  When I see a misplaced comma, I don't think, "Wow, that improves the flow of the sentence."  I think, "Wow, that author is so unprofessional that he doesn't even bother to learn proper grammar."
3. The sentence "sounding better" is so subjective.  What sounds better to you might not sound better to anyone else.  I've even notice that what sounds better to me today doesn't necessarily do so when I reread it a week later.


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## Mindfire (Feb 1, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I would tend to disagree with this completely.
> 
> 1. Grammar rules tend to exist for a reason.
> 2. Truthfully, it makes the author look stupid when they break them.  When I see a misplaced comma, I don't think, "Wow, that improves the flow of the sentence."  I think, "Wow, that author is so unprofessional that he doesn't even bother to learn proper grammar."
> 3. The sentence "sounding better" is so subjective.  What sounds better to you might not sound better to anyone else.  I've even notice that what sounds better to me today doesn't necessarily do so when I reread it a week later.



Grammar rules have reasons yes, but language is fluid. What we speak today would be incomprehensible to people a few hundred years ago, and the language is still changing. 

But that's not really the point. The point is, most readers won't _care_ whether you use the exclamation point or a question mark, or if your commas are askew. They won't notice, and they shouldn't notice. I'd say if the reader is scrutinizing your grammar something has already gone wrong, because they're clearly not engrossed in the story as they should be. 

Also, I gave an important caveat: grammar is only a concern *if it disturbs the reading experience.* That's the key. Bad grammar is bad, not because it's simply bad, but because it damages the book's readability. I'm not saying grammar is unimportant, only that it's not the primary objective: telling a good story is. Everything else comes second.

EDIT: And yes, "sounds better" is subjective, but so is 80% of all writing. The author ought be true to themselves and their story first, then consider the interests of the reader.  Everything else takes a backseat to those. Also, I'm not advocating breaking grammar arbitrarily (that would harm the reading experience), but rather doing it deliberately and with consideration.


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## BWFoster78 (Feb 1, 2013)

> The point is, most readers won't care whether you use the exclamation point or a question mark, or if your commas are askew.



Most won't.  Some will.

If you're marketing to the lowest common denominator, do what you want.

I think that an attitude like, "Grammar doesn't matter, and I can make my own rules" will hurt the author in the end.  I believe that paying attention to the small details assists an author in making sure that the "important" things stay on track.



> I'm not advocating breaking grammar arbitrarily (that would harm the reading experience), but rather doing it deliberately and with consideration.



To me, it came across as:

OP - What is the grammatically correct way to...
You - Grammar doesn't matter.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 1, 2013)

In my opinion, grammar rules should be broken only when there's a damn good reason for doing so. 

Dialogue is the great exception for my writing. I may need to break grammar rules in order to produce the speech quality needed for a character. Even in this case, it should be done sparingly.


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## Mindfire (Feb 1, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Most won't.  Some will.
> 
> If you're marketing to the lowest common denominator, do what you want.
> 
> ...



That's not what I meant at all. I'm not saying grammar doesn't matter. Part of storytelling is communicating effectively with your audience, in which grammar plays a hefty part. I'm merely saying that rather than following the rules for rules' sake, he should be concerned with what serves the story best.

But I agree with T. Allen in that deviations from grammar are most effective and least distraction when done sparingly. One or two intentionally misplaced commas will not hurt the narrative, but if such things are done too much, too often, certainly the aggregate will negatively impact the story.


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## wordwalker (Feb 2, 2013)

I'd say what matters is the *effect,* whether proper or not works better.

Violating grammar is allowable but never safe-- you don't want to risk readers noticing it and being distracted, especially if it looks like you made a mistake rather than a choice. That is, better to use it when the context makes clear it's deliberate; in dialog it's easier, but you still want it to look like what someone meant to say.

(Eg my "what the hell!" switch. I meant that some people have recently started pronouncing what had been a question as an exclamation-- but Anders, you're right, in print it would look more like "oh what the hell!" which is a very different meaning. I'll keep that out of my books.)

Yes we get to bend or update the rules; "she's not a lesbian, she's never even been to Lesbos" is no argument to try making, and I'll be happy if I can live my life without using "whom" with a straight face. But we have to learn to see the rules first, so we can break them instead of tripping over them.


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## Zero Angel (Feb 2, 2013)

For the record, the exclamation point trumps any other punctuation, including question marks. So if you feel that you should end the sentence with "?!", then you are supposed to end it with "!". 

It really comes down to if the person is exclaiming the question or not. If it is a rhetorical question that is not exclaimed, then it should be a question mark. If it is a direct question that is not exclaimed, then it should be a question mark. If it is exclaimed, regardless of the questioning status, then it should be an exclamation point.

And in comic books and visual novels, they will probably use "?!".


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## psychotick (Feb 2, 2013)

Hi,

Not being a grammar expert it seems to me that the question is answer by asking the simple question, what's the sentence meant to be? Is it a question. As in "How dare he?" spoken in wonder and confusion. Or "How dare he!"  spoken in say outrage and shock.

I suspect both are equally correct. After all I don't think that there is any rule in grammar that specifically says that every statement written in the form of a question must actually be a question.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Xaysai (Feb 3, 2013)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> Not being a grammar expert it seems to me that the question is answer by asking the simple question, what's the sentence meant to be? Is it a question. As in "How dare he?" spoken in wonder and confusion. Or "How dare he!"  spoken in say outrage and shock.
> 
> ...



Exactly, sometimes my wife comes home from work and says "Oh, I wonder who didn't bother to clean up around the house on his day off?"

It ends in a question mark, but isn't really a question.


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