# Help with Establishing Religions in my world



## SmokeScribe98 (Aug 23, 2013)

Hello, I've been carrying on doing some initial work for my continent of Ehvas and while I have been able to do summaries for the nations and races of the continent its hard to continue without having an idea about the religious beliefs which I want to play a major role during the novel. You can look at the work I've done on Ehvas so far on my other thread but for now I'm struggling to think of a clever way to tie in all the initial ideas I have. 

The message I want to get across is just how petty, insignificant and pointless human conflict is by introducing a colossal threat. Rather than have it like lord of the rings I wanted to tell a grimmer story, a threat that is more corruption than creation, a lovecraftian creature shackled to the rock and brimstone of the supervolcano that turns the fate of history in the continent possessing and influencing the world around it to somehow break open the barriers between the realms of reality and the realm of desolation. The most grand and powerful of the nations in the continent is the Archanthium Dominion, an extremely nationalistic, militaristic, jingoist and xenophobic society located in the central Isle above the shattered city states of the Gauntlet. 

What I was wondering is, since I am completely unaware of how to go about creating religions in a fictional world is whether I should create my main Catholicism inspired religion in the Dominion or the extremely cultural shattered states below akin to how it was in reality during the Renaissance in the Papal States. I want to have the protagonist of the story (to which there is none yet) to be atheist in his beliefs so that his encounter with this colossal beast worshiped as the devil by some cults is all the grander but I also wanted him to be part of a noble family in the Shattered States. 

Forgive me if this all sounds rather confusing if you have not read my previous thread but I thought this topic warranted its own thread separate from the other one. Any advice is appreciated here since this is a rather unfamiliar and daunting process to me so thank you. If you are confused at all, just check out the other thread. Please tell me what you think, Grazzie.


----------



## skip.knox (Aug 23, 2013)

Is it the same religion for everyone everywhere? Or is that only in the Dominion, with entirely different religions elsewhere?

If the former, there is ample room for variations. Using European history as an example, we find any number of flavors of Catholicism, including Cathars, Hussites and Waldensians, not to mention earlier splits such as Greek Orthodox, Copts or Bogomils. Some of these variations were minor while others were very radical departures from Roman Catholic orthodoxy. 

But you need reasons for the departures. You can invent them, of course, but I'm of the school that says write the story first and invent as needed. So, for example, you might have eight religions in your world, but if the story only needs two of them, just work on those. And even then you only need enough backstory to tell the frontstory.

Beyond that, I'd need more specifics as to what you're looking for in order to give a better reply.


----------



## SmokeScribe98 (Aug 23, 2013)

I was thinking of having the Dominions religion be an altered version of the religion of the Shattered States and most of western Ehvas (akin to Catholicism) the only differences being that due to the Dominions highly nationalistic nature its people would also worship its founders pseudo religiously and be much more extreme in its devotion to its God. As for the Eastern Isle I think I would have the majority of its population worship multiple gods as well as have many different tribes worshiping different things. The south of the western isle would also worship the same religion as the Shattered States but to the north I think I want to have a religion that worships the Great Beast, the antigod in Shattered State religion. 

Oh and here is some work I've just finished on Orlyn and its religion. Please tell me what you think:

*Orlyn:*
Orlyn is different from the rest of the shattered states in its isolationism. Orlyn is naturally isolated from the political intrigue and manoeuvring of the Gauntlet due to the state being located on an island and it uses this isolation to its advantage. Orlyn is famously known as the “bystander state” for its lack of involvement in any wars, conflicts or uprisings on the mainland, instead like Albicia it manages to survive via trading across the continent. Orlyn is also unique in that unlike the majority of other countries, city states and Empires across the continent it does not preach any religion and instead ridicules it. Recently the guard have been known to strip homes of religious artefacts and exile religious members, while this does anger many noble families across Ehvas most countries do not wish to take action against Orlyn else they will endanger their trade and income. The creation of the city of Orlyn itself dates back to the Bytharus Empire and much of the Bytharus architecture and culture remains in its streets. The location of Orlyn means its climate is similar to the northern shattered states in its crisp sun glazed grass and sweltering heartland sun. The city of Orlyn is along the south-eastern coast of the island and slopes up the large mountain in the centre of the island, a dormant volcano.


----------



## Ravana (Aug 23, 2013)

Rule One: With gods, all things are possible.

So your first decision must always be whether or not the gods are real. Because if they are, they'll probably have considerable input in the nature of their faiths.

If they aren't, or for some reason take no interest in mortal affairs, or for some reason cannot intervene in them (in which case, what are they good for, eh?), then anything goes as far as what the mortals do. But if deities _are_ real, and _do_ take an interest, then you aren't going to see religions diverging significantly from the deity's desires… not if she can pop up, get in her high priest's face, slap him around a bit, and clarify her way of thinking.


----------



## SmokeScribe98 (Aug 23, 2013)

What I wanted to do was have it so that yes, these deities are real but they aren't exactly deities. For example in my book, this beast shackled inside the great volcano is worshiped and shunned by different religions as the devil, the antigod or the salvation, nobody knows its there but its so influential and so corruptive that its name and its being is a whisper across creation. It's not the devil in the spiritual sense just a colossal lovecraftian style beast so monumental and grand that humanity are like ants to it so it might as well be a god. I want to carry this theme along.

What I was thinking was that while all these noble house squabble amongst each other for land and resources in Ehvas above it all there is a gigantic universal war between two unimaginably large forces that humanity sees but a glimpse of it all and different cultures across the continent look up to one side as their god or gods and the other side as demons or the devil.


----------



## WooHooMan (Aug 23, 2013)

Personally, I don't think gods are all that important to a religion.  I think you should start out deciding the philosophy and general attitude of the religion then maybe use stories about gods as a justification for a religion's attitude.  And, of course, how these religions see the world would be influenced by the effects of these Lovecraftian monsters.  Maybe these monsters are part of their religions like how Conan the Barbarian worshiped a Great Old One.

I'd also recommend looking to Egyptian mythology as the basis for these religions, rather than Catholicism.  The actually pantheon of Egypt was pretty consistent however there were different interpretations of the gods as well as non-god monsters.  So, if these "deities" exists, the different religions can have different views on them while also having consistent facts about them.  Also, having a major part of the setting being based on a not-European thing might make the setting a little more unique.


----------



## ThinkerX (Aug 24, 2013)

Your reasoning is a great deal like mine.

Way back when, I spent far too much time creating pantheons of gods loosely based after those in real world mythology.  After a time, I began to notice an...'issue':

A lot of the classical deities were simply not that impressive.  So, if you have a 'real' deity, who happens to be not all that powerful, and said deity aquires a mortal enemy who is a mystic swordsman or master wizard, then the deity could die.  Likewise, said mystic swordsman or master mage might attain demigodhood in his or her own right.

The other issue is convincingly writing deity level beings into the story.   The old TSR book did this all the time and usually failed miserably.  Feist did an ok job of it early in his 30 book 'RiftWar' series, and a far inferior job later on.  Sauron, in the Lord of the Rings, was arguably of demigod power...but he was also a crippled, lingering relic of a previous era.  He also introduced the rather unfortunate theme that while 'good' gods exist, the only active ones are evil, a theme repeated often since then.  Quite a few major authors - among them George RR Martin (Game of Thrones) argue that introducing a 'real' deity level being into a tale in a major way is effectively impossible, or at best very difficult.

Ultimately, I went with something similiar to your idea: there are some 'Lovecraftian' / 'Fey' / 'Other' type entities powerful enough to be considered deities, but not that many, and by and large, their nature is utterly alien.  However, their real natures are a 'behind the scenes' type secret.

My main religion is roughly patterened off of gnostic christianity (and originated as such).  It features a 'real' but entirely spiritual supreme being who apart from signs and wonders, cannot manifest physically.  Said supreme being is believed (not entirely correctly) to be attended to by a who legion of 'Saints', many with their own orders dedicated to them.  I made up quite a few 'lives' for these saints, often using real world examples as templates.  A few of these saints are 'masks' for powerful (Lovecraftian) entities.

That said...

In your case, your current empire, despite its immense paranioa and other issues, was founded after a cataclasmic event.  After events of that sort, people turn to religion.  Tales will appear of 'holy men' or 'holy women' who saved such and such a town or region from utter destruction through their virtue.  These tales will get grafted into the local religion, or possibly all linked with a single deity.  Your nations founders, seeking unity in all things (AND not being idiots) will cut a deal with said priesthood where they agree to support each other - much like Constantine did, among many others.  Hence, a pagan religion with a single dominant deity becomes effectively monotheistic, with attendant saints and angels, with maybe a couple of them being 'masks' for Lovecraftian horrors.  Such a religion also pretty much demands a devil figure...but you will have to decide if said devil is mere fiction, a misunderstood positive force, or a Lovecraftian monstrosity.


----------



## Chad Lynch (Aug 24, 2013)

I think you need to decide the ethics of the world first.  How you'll frame the religious aspect should flow from that.  For instance, though Martin's Game of Thrones first few books are excellently written, I soured on it exactly because it is amoral and none of the character's actions really matter in the grand scheme of things.  In his world, war really is pointless, only the stupid act out of a sense of honor, and only the cruelest, most selfish people have a hope of living to the next novel.  I found it all very depressing despite how well it was written.

I also don't see how the MC can remain an atheist after meeting your creature chained to the rock.  Having one's atheism confirmed, having physical proof that there is no greater meaning to anything, that there is no hope for justice in this or the next life, should either drive him to despair and suicide or back to belief.  The only good thing about meeting the devil is that it would confirm God's existence.  On the other hand, if there is no God and all is pointless, the 'pointless' wars and striving for power actually make sense.  If there is no punishment for the wicked, no reward for the penitent, if codes of moral behavior are just things promulgated by the powerful to control the masses, then it makes perfect sense to do whatever you have to do to make sure you can do whatever you want to do.  If there isn't any constraints on my actions other than what my fellow man can inflict on me, why shouldn't I invade my neighbor, steal his goods, rape his women, and make slaves of the survivors?  Why shouldn't I lie, cheat, and kill to make my life better?

Whatever your philosophy, I think that world view makes for a depressing, and thus poor, story.


----------



## SmokeScribe98 (Aug 24, 2013)

I want the protagonist to be atheist so that when he does encounter the devil he starts questioning himself and the world around him, not necessarily continuing in his atheism.


----------



## WooHooMan (Aug 24, 2013)

Is this a setting where atheism is possible?  It'd be pretty dumb for a hero to live in a society where "gods" interact with people but he still doesn't acknowledge them.  And if he didn't accept the divinity these deities, seeing the devil probably wouldn't lead him to question his beliefs.  He'd have to come from a society where the Lovecraft monsters don't directly effect people.


----------



## ThinkerX (Aug 24, 2013)

> Is this a setting where atheism is possible? It'd be pretty dumb for a hero to live in a society where "gods" interact with people but he still doesn't acknowledge them. And if he didn't accept the divinity these deities, seeing the devil probably wouldn't lead him to question his beliefs. He'd have to come from a society where the Lovecraft monsters don't directly effect people.



In a normal fantasy setting, you would probably be right.  Lovecraftian entities, though, are a long ways from normal.  The biggies are...

1) With some exceptions, they do not care if they have worshippers of any sort at all.  

2) In many cases, humans might well have difficulty even regarding such Lovecraftian entities as being 'alive' in the first place, let alone 'divine'.

Hence, an educated person with a bit of an open mind could...encounter...a Lovecraftian 'God' and conclude it was a mere monster or bizarre natural force.

Also worth noting: in the real world, charismatic cult leaders and long established priesthoods alike often resort to fraudulent miracles or signs to support their claims.  Most of their worshippers *want* to believe, so they accept these frauds as real.  But a good observer with a bit of knowledge could see right through most of this, and then start wondering what else is fake about the religion....and down that path lies Atheism.


----------



## WooHooMan (Aug 24, 2013)

But the idea is that the character is an atheist, he sees a Lovecraftian "devil" and he questions his atheism.  If he already believes that the Lovecraftian monsters are forces of nature and not divine, how would the discover of the "devil" change his mind?  He would have had to have little to no contact with them before seeing the "devil".


----------



## ThinkerX (Aug 25, 2013)

> But the idea is that the character is an atheist, he sees a Lovecraftian "devil" and he questions his atheism. If he already believes that the Lovecraftian monsters are forces of nature and not divine, how would the discover of the "devil" change his mind? He would have had to have little to no contact with them before seeing the "devil".



You are conflating the dominant religion with the Lovecraftian entities.  And I probably wasn't clear enough.

So...

We have a dominant religion, probably monotheistic, with lots of Saints.  

We have an MC, who through education, observation, and a skeptical nature has convinced himself that said dominant religion is mostly fakery, and there is no real God behind it.  Hence, an atheist.

MC then encounters an extremely powerful Lovecraftian entity, and watches it do things he can not rationally account for.

Therefor, the MC decides that the Lovecraftian entity is either a deity or a very powerful being/force of some sort, depending on what he witnessed.  This calls his atheism into question.

Now a more pious sort from the dominant religion would have less difficulty here: they'd conclude, situation depending, they were looking at either a demonic manifestation or a really ticked off saint.


----------



## WooHooMan (Aug 25, 2013)

Ok, I see.  I thought he just sees that the "devil" exists.  I also assumed that the Lovecraft monsters interacted with the people somewhat regularly.  I get it now.

So, I assume that when everything is said and done, the MC was suppose to be "right" about everything and that the dominant religion is wrong?


----------



## ThinkerX (Aug 25, 2013)

> So, I assume that when everything is said and done, the MC was suppose to be "right" about everything and that the dominant religion is wrong?



That would be one option.

A more interesting one, the option I went went with, is that despite all the fakery and pointless ritual of the dominant religion, there is a kernel of truth at its core: there is some sort of positive 'God' that does take a positive interest in its followers, but the religion managed to muck up nearly all of the details past that.

In my case, I decided the 'True God' was an entirely spiritual being, who offered nudges and insights to characters that they could either accept or ignore.  This wasn't enough for the priesthood, who wanted rules and rigid guidelines to keep their congregations in line.


----------



## WooHooMan (Aug 26, 2013)

I think you might be focusing too much on the "god" element.  There are other aspects to a religion.  A religion can still have an overall goodness to it even if its god isn't real or if its not-really-a-god god is evil.

I'm actually kind of interested in what this religion's ideology is.  Not so much what the priesthood believes but the actual values that they teach.


----------

