# Genre Confusion



## Caged Maiden (Apr 16, 2012)

So recently the subject came up of how to include a love story in a fantasy novel.  Well I am really excited about that, because I write a sort of Romantic Fantasy (if such a thing exists).  I don't know what to call my style, because it's definitely not the unrealistic smut that fills the pages of the romance novels I've read, but neither is it the all-out clash between good and evil that makes for epic high fantasy stories.  

It is firmly seated between those two things, being much more focused on the relationships between people (both romantic and otherwise) and the struggles of individuals (usually common people who accomplish extraordinary things).

So my question is: Am I still writing fantasy?  Or am I fit in somewhere else that doesn't have a name?  My work hasn't been terribly well-received here, and though part of the problem is my inexperience and need to clean up my work, I'm feeling like my concepts are something most people have sort of frowned at upon my explanation.  Now I'm trying not to be sensitive, so I keep going along, but how much love is tolerable/ expected in a fantasy story?  Along the same line, is a sex scene (or two) too much for a typical reader?  I guess I'm asking because my style is real.  I like a real world where real things happen and struggles are real.  Of course magic and fantasy elements are involved, but the characters act and react how real people do, and love (or at the least sexual attraction) is fundamental to being human.  Am I way off base?


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## Telcontar (Apr 16, 2012)

You aren't off base at all. 

I admit that I'm less likely to read fantasy where a love story plays a major role. Then again I'm a guy and, though something of a romantic at heart, I want those subplots to be just that - sub. Underneath. In addition to, and not given equal importance to, the main plot.

However, many books I read and love feature romantic subplots. They're still fantasy. I'm sure that there are many books which are even kind of fantasy/romance blends. I don't know the tropes of the romance genre, so I couldn't say if I've read any. I don't think so.

As you said, love/relationships/sexuality/blah blah blah is fundamental to the human condition. There is bound to be some element of romance in almost any novel-length book, I think. The same applies to humor. A book might not be a comedy, but there will still be jokes and humour within it.


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## Steerpike (Apr 16, 2012)

Genre boundaries are hazy. If the primary plot / story is the romance, then you're pretty firmly in the Romance genre (whether you want to go further and categorize it in some sub-genre is another matter). If the love story is a sub-plot, then you're probably writing something that would still be shelved in the Fantasy section. 

A publisher might ask you to change it to make it more one or the other. A fantasy writer I know was asked to changer her story around a bit so it could be shelved in Romance instead of Fantasy, since Romance sells a lot more.


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## Devor (Apr 16, 2012)

anihow said:


> It is firmly seated between those two things, being much more focused on the relationships between people (both romantic and otherwise) and the struggles of individuals (usually common people who accomplish extraordinary things).



In a nutshell:

Story - Sequence of character development and relationships.
Plot - Sequence of events which build into a climax.

In most good books, Story is more important than Plot, sometimes to the point of overwhelming it.  In most good Fantasy books, plots can become more important, so that the two can be about on par.

In a Romance novel, _a romantic story_ completely subsumes the plot, so that events are essentially developed and timed around their impact on the key relationships of the characters involved.  Right when the two realize they love each other.... _boom_, something interrupts them.  Right when they're arguing and about to break up, _thwack_, they're captured and trapped in a room together.

Just because your story features romance does not make you a romantic writer, nor does it mean you're not writing fantasy.  It just means that you're featuring certain aspects of life.  Although, if you talked to a publisher, they'd probably tell you to stop what you're doing and write romantic fantasy because it sells better.  It's up to you whether that would be "finding focus" or "selling out."




> My work hasn't been terribly well-received here, and though part of the problem is my inexperience and need to clean up my work, I'm feeling like my concepts are something most people have sort of frowned at upon my explanation.



Link me to a thousand word excerpt and I'll give you a critique.


(edit)  Ninjaed.  Blasted mid-post diaper change.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Apr 16, 2012)

anihow said:


> So recently the subject came up of how to include a love story in a fantasy novel.  Well I am really excited about that, because I write a sort of Romantic Fantasy (if such a thing exists).  I don't know what to call my style, because it's definitely not the unrealistic smut that fills the pages of the romance novels I've read, but neither is it the all-out clash between good and evil that makes for epic high fantasy stories.
> 
> It is firmly seated between those two things, being much more focused on the relationships between people (both romantic and otherwise) and the struggles of individuals (usually common people who accomplish extraordinary things).
> 
> So my question is: Am I still writing fantasy?  Or am I fit in somewhere else that doesn't have a name?



Fantasy is the furniture, not the core. Two people struggling against the world and also struggling with their attraction to one another could be set in a medieval kingdom with dragons, on a spaceship, on the Titanic, in a Starbucks in 2003, whatever. "Romantic fantasy" is a romance in a fantasy setting.

There's no reason you can't have a fantasy story that is both an "all-out clash between good and evil" as well as about a romance between people. Hell, that's more or less what my novel is (well, it's less an all-out clash; it's more realistic in the sense that even the villains have rational motivations, rather than being Evil Overlords).


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 16, 2012)

Thank you all so much.  I was feeling like a simpering girl in a world of hardened mercenaries this morning when I asked this question, but I'm really thankful for your kind encouragement.  

To clarify, not all of my books have hot and heavy scenes, but the last few have been a little... unbridled.  I got concerned about this last night (and lost a little sleep over it) when I read a scene in Chapter 2 of one of my books, and I have a pretty detailed intimate scene which carries on for about 3000 words.  Now I love the scene, and it opens up a ton about the characters, and who they are, but I just turned off my computer in disgust and thought to myself, "There's no way a man is going to want to read that, but I can't in good conscience cut it, because I _would _want it there."  Oh man I'm so torn, because I love this story.  It isn't some thinly-disguised smutfest, but a great quest, and this hot introduction between two strangers is the fuel for the whole darn thing.  

Now I might be guilty of saying some things about romance novels that have been less than kind, but I've read some fantasy books which find a balance very close to what I try to achieve.  I'd like to think I am both tasteful and realistic when I write, but again, I just wonder whether there is any market for the stories I write.  It sounds like from what you all have said, there is.


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## Telcontar (Apr 16, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Fantasy is the furniture, not the core.



Ooooh, I like it. If we generalize and modify a bit, we get:

"Genre is the furniture, not the house."

Which is a pretty darned good bit of advice. Yeah, I'll be saying that a lot going forward...

Also, anihow: hardened mercenaries? We're unblooded militia around here, except for a couple notable exceptions. I'm looking at you Michael J. Sullivan.

Also also, have you read any of Anne Mcaffery's Pern books? I think those were some of the more romance-heavy books I've read. The romances are still very much subplots, though.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 16, 2012)

I haven't, but I'll look it up.

How do you tell if the romance is too much the focus?  Because right now I would say they are not the focus of the stories.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 16, 2012)

Telcontar said:


> Also, anihow: hardened mercenaries? We're unblooded militia around here, except for a couple notable exceptions. I'm looking at you Michael J. Sullivan.



HAHA I said "like".    I love the friends I've made here.  I wasn't trying to relate you great scribes to the one any more than I am actually like the other.  I think in real life I'm harder than most men I know (except of course my dad).


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Apr 17, 2012)

anihow said:


> Thank you all so much.  I was feeling like a simpering girl in a world of hardened mercenaries this morning when I asked this question, but I'm really thankful for your kind encouragement.
> 
> To clarify, not all of my books have hot and heavy scenes, but the last few have been a little... unbridled.  I got concerned about this last night (and lost a little sleep over it) when I read a scene in Chapter 2 of one of my books, and I have a pretty detailed intimate scene which carries on for about 3000 words.  Now I love the scene, and it opens up a ton about the characters, and who they are, but I just turned off my computer in disgust and thought to myself, "There's no way a man is going to want to read that, but I can't in good conscience cut it, because I _would _want it there."  Oh man I'm so torn, because I love this story.  It isn't some thinly-disguised smutfest, but a great quest, and this hot introduction between two strangers is the fuel for the whole darn thing.
> 
> Now I might be guilty of saying some things about romance novels that have been less than kind, but I've read some fantasy books which find a balance very close to what I try to achieve.  I'd like to think I am both tasteful and realistic when I write, but again, I just wonder whether there is any market for the stories I write.  It sounds like from what you all have said, there is.



3,000 words in chapter 2 seems... like quite a bit. I've got entire chapters in my novel that are barely that long. If your scene also has a lot of conversation/character development that's intertwined (no pun intended) with the sex, then that might make it not seem overwhelming.

I don't mind romance or reading sex scenes–Bujold's _Sharing Knife_ series are highly romantic and have a few sex scenes, and that was part of why I enjoyed those books so much–but any individual scene lasting that long might get repetitive or boring if there's too much in the way of sexual activity and not enough in the way of plot/character developments. I've got, I think, three sex scenes in my novel. The longest one is 928 words, and it's the first time two major characters sleep together. (It's in chapter 21.) The other two are 225 and 261 words long. There's also a couple of short scenes that imply that sex was recently had, or will be had soon, as well as a scene in which two characters take a bath together.

Too much sex, too soon, risks branding the story as the "thinly-veiled romance" that you insist it isn't. I haven't read it so I can't judge; I'm just going based on the fact that a chapter-length sex scene in chapter _two_ seems to belie the idea that the story isn't overly focused on the romance.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Apr 17, 2012)

Telcontar said:


> Ooooh, I like it. If we generalize and modify a bit, we get:
> 
> "Genre is the furniture, not the house."
> 
> Which is a pretty darned good bit of advice. Yeah, I'll be saying that a lot going forward...



I must confess, the quote was stolen from George R. R. Martin.  I can't remember his phrasing (it was better than mine), but your phrasing is also better than mine.


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 17, 2012)

Anihow, I also include love stories as a sub-plot in all of my Fantasy stories... well, I confess that the series that I just finished yesterday is actually a love story in a Fantasy world (with less battles than my first series) and it gets very romantical sometimes, but still, many other things are happening beside the love story =)

Romantic Fantasy is a real sub-genre, there is a wikipedia article about it!! If it makes you feel better, my Fantasy is also unusual and I am not sure how to describe it: it's so unusual that I simply call it Surreal Fantasy, with dream-like worlds, unrealistic and terrible magic and no humans at all.

Why do you say that we are hardened mercenaries or unblooded militia here in Mythic Scribes??


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## Penpilot (Apr 17, 2012)

Maybe you fall under the Paranormal Romance sub-catagory?
Paranormal romance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 17, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> Why do you say that we are hardened mercenaries or unblooded militia here in Mythic Scribes??



I drew an analogy, saying I felt like a simpering girl (which I most certainly am not) in a _world_ of hardened mercenaries (as in the genre of fantasy, not the scribes here).  It feels like people are saying readers want gore splattered on every wall, yet I want to tell a different story.


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## Ghost (Apr 17, 2012)

anihow said:


> I'm feeling like my concepts are something most people have sort of frowned at upon my explanation.



Yeah, that's something Sheilawisz and I have talked about. We write comepletely different stuff, but there's this sense that what we're writing won't be acceptable to people because it's not standard. It doesn't bother me in the storywriting phase, but marketing? I don't even want to think about it. I feel like I write low, low fantasy. Is "psychological fantasy" a genre? If so, that's totally my niche.



anihow said:


> how much love is tolerable/ expected in a fantasy story?  Along the same line, is a sex scene (or two) too much for a typical reader?



I think many people don't expect or like too much romance in their fantasy. I don't know where they draw the line because it varies from person to person. Authors can get away with writing about love interests, but once it becomes the focus of the plot or a subplot some people are turned off. One or two sex scenes wouldn't bother me unless it suffers from horrible descriptions, goes on very long, or is very raunchy. The first is cringeworthy and the other two may limit who will publish you and change your audience is.

That said, plenty of readers actively searching for this kind of thing: romance that is important but not the sole point of the book. Even when it's heavy on the romance, there are plenty of folks who dig it.



Devor said:


> In a Romance novel, _a romantic story_ completely subsumes the plot, so that events are essentially developed and timed around their impact on the key relationships of the characters involved.



This is a really great point, and it articulates something I've failed to put into words before. Romance focuses on whether or not two people will get together and whether or not they'll stay together. It's the reason for the book. (Of course, a few books focus on the character's love life, yet people don't think of them as romance novels. The author's apparent gender and literary style seem to matter for that distinction. )



anihow said:


> "There's no way a man is going to want to read that, but I can't in good conscience cut it, because I _would _want it there."



There are people who won't read a book if they perceive it as "girly." There are people who see a female name on the cover and think "women can't write fantasy/sci-fi/horror/mystery/thrillers/literary/etc." There are people who think men can't write romances/chick lit, too, for that matter. Fortunately, there are people who read good books because they like good books.



anihow said:


> Now I might be guilty of saying some things about romance novels that have been less than kind, but I've read some fantasy books which find a balance very close to what I try to achieve.



Yeah, people tend to be very dismissive of romance. The bodice-ripper covers might have something to do with it because people _do_ judge books by covers, but even so, people act like romance is halfway between a picture book and a "real" book. Romance, YA, and children's books get dismissed as easy to write, and they're treated as so much fluff.

Could you list the books that achieve the balance you're aiming for? That could clarify some things.



Penpilot said:


> Maybe you fall under the Paranormal Romance sub-catagory?



No. Using Devor's explanation as my shiny, new litmus test, I think anihow has too many other factors like the non-romantic relationships, individual struggles, and the main quest. Paranormal romance, no matter how convoluted the plot, centers on the main character's romantic life or sexual escapades. It doesn't sound to me like anihow is setting her book up that way.

I don't like that people label a book with a romantic subplot a romance. From the Wikipedia entry, they say paranormal romance can be "stories where the main emphasis is on a science fiction or fantasy based plot with a romantic subplot included." That's silly. If romance isn't the main thrust of the book, why label it that way? To keep romance out of "serious" science fiction or fantasy? Pfft.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 18, 2012)

Ouroboros said:


> Could you list the books that achieve the balance you're aiming for? That could clarify some things.



Sure.  One book I adore is Amazon.com: The Privilege of the Sword (9780553586961): Ellen Kushner: Books  It's definitely got an interesting cast of characters, loads of conflict, dueling, mystery, and quite a fair amount of sex (not romance).  I like the dark undertones and inappropriateness.  I bought the sequel but haven't read it.

Another I thought really well done was Amazon.com: The Wolf King (Legends of the Wolves, Book 3) (9780345423658): Alice Borchardt: Books  which is really different than anything else I have read, but I loved it.  The relationships between characters are very similar to how I write mine, and I thought it was really well-balanced.


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## Mindfire (Apr 18, 2012)

I find it hilariously ironic that you created a thread asking how to include romance and I made one about how to ignore it. It's almost like the universe balances itself out naturally.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 18, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> I find it hilariously ironic that you created a thread asking how to include romance and I made one about how to ignore it. It's almost like the universe balances itself out naturally.



I noticed the same thing and had a little chuckle myself over it.  Haha we should trade, I'll help you write you're love scene and you can give me a plot twist people can really sink their teeth into.


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## Ghost (Apr 18, 2012)

anihow: I haven't read those books, but I'll see if they're available at my library.






Ouroboros said:


> people people people people people people people people people people people people people



Do go on, Ouroboros. Please enlighten us with more brilliant insights.


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## Mindfire (Apr 18, 2012)

anihow said:


> I noticed the same thing and had a little chuckle myself over it.  Haha we should trade, I'll help you write you're love scene and you can give me a plot twist people can really sink their teeth into.



Hmm... the idea has merit.


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## Mindfire (Apr 18, 2012)

Ouroboros said:


> Do go on, Ouroboros. Please enlighten us with more brilliant insights.



...what?


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## Ghost (Apr 19, 2012)

Ah, I was embarrassed that I somehow managed to use the word "people" more than 10 times in one post. Who even does that? lol


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## Mindfire (Apr 19, 2012)

Ouroboros said:


> Ah, I was embarrassed that I somehow managed to use the word "people" more than 10 times in one post. Who even does that? lol



You do, clearly.


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