# Corrupting your hero?



## Ireth (Apr 4, 2012)

How does one go about doing that while still keeping them a hero?

I'm thinking specifically of the protagonist of my vampire story _Low Road_. The protagonist, Olan, is a newly turned vampire who abhors the thought of drinking human blood. This abhorrence grows stronger when he goes to the underground vampire city ruled by the lords Conall and Luthais, and sees the depths of insanity and depravity to which vampires can fall if they drink human blood continuously and without remorse. Olan is compelled to feed from a human as the rest of the vampires (save only a few) do, and he resists temptation with help from Luthais, who is also very against human blood consumption, but nigh powerless to stop Conall imposing it on their people. That's how it goes in the first draft, at least.

For the second draft, I was thinking of taking away some of Olan's innocence and having him willingly feed from a human being. The circumstances of that are being worked out in my head still, but I want it to be so that Olan is legitimately at fault and does what he does for the wrong reasons -- no mercy-killing a dying stranger or anything like that. Depending on the situation, he might not feel remorse: if he's avenging the death or harm of a close friend, for example, he probably wouldn't bat an eyelid. My trouble is keeping him a likable, heroic character after he does something despicable, and perhaps giving him a chance for redemption. Any thoughts on this?


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## Phin Scardaw (Apr 4, 2012)

I'd say that he gets overwhelmed by his desire. This is often what leads people to do most of the things he regrets, like commit adultery for example. 

If he's newly converted, it's likely that he won't be able to control himself at all when the overpowering urge takes him. This is the truly monstrous part of the curse - he behaves monstrously but still feels remorse.

Later, he would be able to learn how to control himself probably. Remember that most heroes start out weak and that's fine. As long as he tries at least to resist your readers will sympathize with him.


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## Ireth (Apr 4, 2012)

Fair point. But I want it to happen later on in the novel, after he's been a vampire for a couple of years, not in the first chapter when he first arises from the grave, or even as he travels to Eilean Donan from Edinburgh. That's the reason the first creature I had him encounter was a dog instead of, say, his father. It'll be hard to pull off while he's isolated in the castle with only a ghost and another vampire for company -- the other vampire knows the consequences of drinking human blood only too well, and will advise the protagonist firmly against it. They'll be careful to hunt where there's little risk of being intercepted by humans.

*ponders* There's a scene close to the climax where the protagonist comes very close to biting someone, but doesn't actually do it. I could very easily have him actually bite the person, but then that would potentially alter the dynamic of the rest of the buildup to the climax, assuming nobody catches him in the act and kills him on sight. :/ Hm.


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## Steerpike (Apr 4, 2012)

I think you can make it work, Ireth. Stick with your conception. If you change it so that it happens earlier, or that it is a result of the compulsion of his urges rather than a willing act, you will have quite a different character and story than what you are planning for the second draft. There is no reason to give it a shot and see how it works out. I am always of the opinion that one should write the story one is envisioning and not be swayed into writing a different story. Once you've done the second draft you can evaluate how effective your work with the character has been and go from there.


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## Shockley (Apr 4, 2012)

I think the easiest thing for you to do would be to have him attracted to the blood but repulsed by the idea of it. Have it established up-front that, no matter how repulsed he is on an intellectual level by the thought of drinking human blood, it is something he has an urge to do.


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## Steerpike (Apr 4, 2012)

Shockley said:


> I think the easiest thing for you to do would be to have him attracted to the blood but repulsed by the idea of it. Have it established up-front that, no matter how repulsed he is on an intellectual level by the thought of drinking human blood, it is something he has an urge to do.



Again this ends up being a different story, and ultimately a different character, than Ireth's stated intention. It is like I said I wanted chocolate chip ice cream but couldn't decide on a topping, and in response to my request for help in choosing a topping someone said what I should really do is get butter pecan. OK, butter pecan is their flavor, not mine.

The original post stated this would be a willing act. All the suggestions telling the writer to resort to a compelling urge or blood lust negate that will. It is a different story with a different character.


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## Steerpike (Apr 4, 2012)

Rullenzar said:


> Killing someone because they killed his/her friend is a willing act like I stated before lol And acting on the urges when the vampire first turns sets up the will to never do it again. End of story, my point is made.
> 
> Also I believe the question was how to corrupt your main hero, and both my options offer that possiblity to veer off and become the killer their meant to be or for corruptions sake. The point is read a persons post more clearly before judging.



The "willing" nature of it varies with the extent to which some compulsion, like rage or blood lust, is on the character. It could be a willing act if it is to some extent calculated. If it is something other than the will that forces the character, then you've got a different story.

Also, "lol" is not an element of punctuation, and you should investigate the distinctions between "their" and "they're." They are much less subtle than the differences between an act of will and an act of compulsion, and your failure to make the distinction in one case may illuminate your failure to do so in the other.


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## Ireth (Apr 4, 2012)

Rullenzar said:


> I think you'll be able to pull it off better doing it at the beginning. For one, the urge takes him the very first time so he has no control. Then he feels remorse and vows not to do it again and has help to avoid the urge. Later on in the novel at the poiint you want him too, say a human kills a friend of his so he lets the rage and urge take him in that moment and boom he does it again. I see this working best but there are other ways. Don't make him too much like Michael Corbin from Underworld because then people will look at him like he's a pussy. That's just my opinion though.



Having it happen at the beginning would make for a completely different story, which is not what I was aiming for. I want the hero to learn about vampires, what they are, how they work and what many of them do, before he finds out about the corruption aspect (see below) the hard way.

I've never seen Underworld or heard of Michael Corbin, but I can see you're insinuating that vampires who don't drink human blood are "pussies." That's your opinion, not mine. The vampires in my story were created by an evil goddess, basically to be her puppets. She wants them to drink human blood, and they have the compulsion to do so, but a good many are able to resist it. That doesn't make them "weak" or "pussies" any more than those who drink human blood are "strong" -- in fact I think it's the opposite. Those who drink human blood either don't have the strength of will to resist it, or are doing it because they enjoy it. Those who drink human blood are corrupted, and eventually turn into monsters both physically and mentally, while those who don't still remain relatively human.



Steerpike said:


> I think you can make it work, Ireth. Stick with your conception. If you change it so that it happens earlier, or that it is a result of the compulsion of his urges rather than a willing act, you will have quite a different character and story than what you are planning for the second draft. There is no reason to give it a shot and see how it works out. I am always of the opinion that one should write the story one is envisioning and not be swayed into writing a different story. Once you've done the second draft you can evaluate how effective your work with the character has been and go from there.



Thanks, Steer. That's basically what I said.  I'm not too far into the second draft at the moment, so I'll see how things play out later on.



Shockley said:


> I think the easiest thing for you to do would be to have him attracted to the blood but repulsed by the idea of it. Have it established up-front that, no matter how repulsed he is on an intellectual level by the thought of drinking human blood, it is something he has an urge to do.



*nodnod* Indeed. It's stated in basically those words when the hero first rises from his grave, sees his father's dog and needs to hunt and kill it for a meal: "*Knowing what he had to do, but loathing the thought of it*, Olan lunged after the hound, feeling a strange, beastly thrill in the hunt." It's feeding from the dog which spares him from having to do the same to his father or mother. I couldn't have them die on page ten, as they come up later in the story (as humans, which is important, so no copping out and turning them into vampires) much later on.


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## Butterfly (Apr 4, 2012)

If he's suddenly going to go out and kill someone half way through then he needs a strong motive to do so, or again it's down to your control issue.

This is just a suggestion, but, is it possible or plausible that Connal could trick Olan into drinking human blood in one scene? Such as during a stretch of dialogue hand him a glass and tell him it was chicken blood, or something like that, and he drinks it which then kick-starts a craving addiction cycle. He goes hunting willingly and purposely to quench it, does so successfully, and would then regret it. After realising what Connal has done could leave him with an addiction that he seeks to break out of. Connal could then become the object of his conflict and rage.

I think your biggest issue is finding that motive, or it will seem entirely out of his character's normal behaviour to do this.


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## The Blue Lotus (Apr 4, 2012)

Umm so basicly you are rewriting Louis Anne Rice's MC?


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## Steerpike (Apr 4, 2012)

Ireth said:


> H
> Thanks, Steer. That's basically what I said.  I'm not too far into the second draft at the moment, so I'll see how things play out later on.



Yeah, and I'm glad you're sticking with that. If the character acts in full control of his faculties, entirely as a result of his own willfulness, then the later redemption (if it occurs) becomes all the more meaningful. In many ways, you are describing a much more compelling character here than one who has acted as a result of some irresistible compulsion, or even as a result of trickery. From what you are saying, he is in complete control of himself, he knows it is wrong, and he does it any way. I like that approach and I think it opens the door to a powerful transformation if you decide to redeem him later.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 4, 2012)

DISCLAIMER:  I am probably not normal, though I like myself as I am, and  would probably not be a good character for any book, ever. I responded privately.

In short, I believe people can know something's wrong, and do it anyways... and feel remorse... and either choose to do it again or not.


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## Ireth (Apr 4, 2012)

Butterfly said:


> If he's suddenly going to go out and kill someone half way through then he needs a strong motive to do so, or again it's down to your control issue.
> 
> This is just a suggestion, but, is it possible or plausible that Connal could trick Olan into drinking human blood in one scene? Such as during a stretch of dialogue hand him a glass and tell him it was chicken blood, or something like that, and he drinks it which then kick-starts a craving addiction cycle. He goes hunting willingly and purposely to quench it, does so successfully, and would then regret it. After realising what Connal has done could leave him with an addiction that he seeks to break out of. Connal could then become the object of his conflict and rage.
> 
> I think your biggest issue is finding that motive, or it will seem entirely out of his character's normal behaviour to do this.



Having Conall trick him into drinking human blood is probably the easiest idea, and the most in-character for Conall. I can see him having done so for a lot of vampires before, especially the ones Luthais (his brother-in-arms) has been trying to urge into drinking only from animals. Conall's just a butthole like that. Evil little sod.



The Blue Lotus said:


> Umm so basicly you are rewriting Louis Anne Rice's MC?



I've never read Anne Rice's books, so any similarity is coincidental.



Steerpike said:


> Yeah, and I'm glad you're sticking with that. If the character acts in full control of his faculties, entirely as a result of his own willfulness, then the later redemption (if it occurs) becomes all the more meaningful. In many ways, you are describing a much more compelling character here than one who has acted as a result of some irresistible compulsion, or even as a result of trickery. From what you are saying, he is in complete control of himself, he knows it is wrong, and he does it any way. I like that approach and I think it opens the door to a powerful transformation if you decide to redeem him later.



*nod* Exactly. Trickery is reserved for the villain, compulsion is for most of the other vampires (including the villain himself, in the past when he was less villainous).



anihow said:


> DISCLAIMER:  I am probably not normal, though I like myself as I am, and  would probably not be a good character for any book, ever. I responded privately.
> 
> In short, I believe people can know something's wrong, and do it anyways... and feel remorse... and either choose to do it again or not.



You've pretty much summed up the motive of Ciaran, the protagonist's vampire friend. XD He killed one human because Conall pretty much forced him to, and turned another one of his own free will. He feels remorse about both, and urges the protagonist to not go down the same path as he did, lest he go too far and end up like Conall.


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## Phin Scardaw (Apr 4, 2012)

Let yourself be guided by the story and it will come to you. I believe also in writing what you think is the right thing to do, as Steerpike is saying - don't let yourself be swayed. I always invite others to share their opinions, but reserve the right to reject any of them if I don't agree with what they suggest for my story. 

I think that by the time your readers get to the point when Olan makes his choice, they will already be fully committed to that character. I believe that it is very difficult for a writer to alienate readers once they've already identified with the protagonist, no matter what sort of foul deeds they might do. I think they only way to truly turn off a reader is by letting your characters do something that is completely out of character for them, as this strains their credibility. 

So don't worry about it too much - write it like you feel it should be written, then pass it out for opinions on how to strengthen the passage if you feel it needs work. 

Chances are, your readers will find the story even more compelling if Olan succumbs to temptation and they'll be rooting for him even more because now they know there's a risk of his becoming corrupt. The only tricky part for you would be finding the right circumstances wherein Olan would give in. Good luck!


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## Steerpike (Apr 4, 2012)

Phin Scardaw said:


> I think that by the time your readers get to the point when Olan makes his choice, they will already be fully committed to that character. I believe that it is very difficult for a writer to alienate readers once they've already identified with the protagonist, no matter what sort of foul deeds they might do. I think they only way to truly turn off a reader is by letting your characters do something that is completely out of character for them, as this strains their credibility.



This is a good point, Phin. I think you are generally right about this. Once the reader is invested, they will tend to stay there, and even if the character does something they dislike they will stay with the character and maybe even hope for redemption (which makes it that much more satisfying when it comes). Doing something completely out of character, at least without explanation, will be a problem for many readers.


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## Steerpike (Apr 4, 2012)

No need to upset yourself Rullenzar. You shouldn't initiate snide commentary if you're going to be offended to receive it in return. I generally assume that people who go down that path have thick enough skins to weather it. I suppose the irony of your most recent posting escapes you as well...


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## Steerpike (Apr 4, 2012)

Rullenzar said:


> If I was upset in any way steerpike, believe me when I say you would have known it by my last post. You should consider taking your own advice ^ lol Have a nice day. Rull out!



Hmmmm. No, this doesn't quite work. I'm available for private tutoring at exceedingly reasonable rates (PM me).

On a serious note, however, my comments about the suggestions offered to the OP are valid. It is not uncommon in a writing forum for advice to take the form of a reworking of a story in the way the commentator would write it, as opposed to the approach the author has in mind. For writers who have been at it a while, this isn't generally a problem because they will, for the most part, ignore such suggestions. But there are a wide range of authors here, in terms of experience, and many writers who are just starting out will attach some authority to such suggestions and start changing their stories. In this case, the question raised by the OP goes to a fundamental aspect of the character. The suggestions change the story into something quite different. My opinion is that the OP should not adopt those suggestions. People who disagree can present their viewpoint, just as I've disagreed with the suggestions, and the OP can ultimately decide. That is how a discussion is conducted. The idea that anyone, including you or I, should be able to post a suggestion with no one else making a critical comment of it is just silly. Also, if you give advice to a fellow author asking questions, but will be offended if your advice is not taken, it is better to refrain from giving it.


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## Phin Scardaw (Apr 4, 2012)

anihow said:


> DISCLAIMER:  I am probably not normal, though I like myself as I am, and  would probably not be a good character for any book, ever.



I am very, very curious about THIS comment!


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## The Din (Apr 4, 2012)

Isn't the MC a vampire? Let him kill a bunch of people, thus surrendering to his new position on the food chain. Redemption could come after he discovers one of his victims has a family. 
I personally corrupt the **** out of my characters. Nothing worse than following a goody-two-shoes who does exactly what's expected for the entire novel. (specially if he's a vampire)


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## Ireth (Apr 4, 2012)

The Din said:


> Isn't the MC a vampire? Let him kill a bunch of people, thus surrendering to his new position on the food chain. Redemption could come after he discovers one of his victims has a family.
> I personally corrupt the **** out of my characters. Nothing worse than following a goody-two-shoes who does exactly what's expected for the entire novel. (specially if he's a vampire)



That would make him no better than the villain. The thing about the corruption of my vampires is, the more corrupted one is the harder it is to be redeemed. The redemption process is a very specific act of sacrifice based on mutual love -- the vampire sacrifices his/her life for a loved one, and the loved one avenges their death by killing the killer. If my MC is living far from anyone he knows and loves (which he is for the bulk of the novel), and I turn him into a mass murderer, who would he sacrifice himself for? And who would step forward to avenge him?


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 4, 2012)

Phin Scardaw said:


> I am very, very curious about THIS comment!



Sorry I deleted my post because I was advised my openness might be offensive to SOMEONE out there SOMEWHERE, so I sent it to Ireth for consideration.  I am probably suffering from some sort of personality disorder, so if you know a bit about psychology, I'm happy to share... 

If I were a D&D alignment... I'm not sure where I would fall, and I wanted Ireth to know that her character need not be irredeemable after crossing the line...nor even need a good reason for doing it.  I have done it many times and not merely because of some sort of addiction or obsession.  Sometimes I do it just because I WANT to, and that's it.  Am I a good person, loyal friend, loving wife, devoted mother?  Yeppers.  All of those... but I have had one foot over the line most of my life, and see how great I turned out?  

If her character drinks human blood why does he need a grand reason?  Maybe because he has fangs is enough.  It would be for me.  But then.... I'm a grayish character, and like I said, probably not the stuff true fantasy is about..... now dark urban fantasy, or psychological thrillers... that I'm probably perfect for.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 4, 2012)

Ireth said:


> And who would step forward to avenge him?



Hmm... good question.


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## Phin Scardaw (Apr 4, 2012)

anihow said:


> Sorry I deleted my post because I was advised my openness might be offensive to SOMEONE out there SOMEWHERE, so I sent it to Ireth for consideration.  I am probably suffering from some sort of personality disorder, so if you know a bit about psychology, I'm happy to share...
> 
> If her character drinks human blood why does he need a grand reason?  Maybe because he has fangs is enough.  It would be for me.  But then.... I'm a grayish character, and like I said, probably not the stuff true fantasy is about..... now dark urban fantasy, or psychological thrillers... that I'm probably perfect for.



I don't think writers should ever have to apologize for anything they write. I mean, if we're not getting people thinking, or challenging beliefs, then we're probably not doing our job, right?

I like dark urban fantasy a lot. I think a lot of people do. 

I just started watching "Breaking Bad" (which is set in Albuquerque, I might point out) and watching a Good character start doing Bad things is very entertaining. We've all got the devil in us, and those of us that can embrace that probably have the best chances of also embracing the angels in us - although they're far less horny than the devils! (pun intended)


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 4, 2012)

yeah in my case, I think it's the lack of remorse that concerns me though.... HAHAH I love breaking bad.  Yeah I've been to some of those places!


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## Erica (Apr 4, 2012)

Fear can also contribute to corruption. Conquering one's fears is a theme that comes up in fiction of all stripes. Succumbing to fear can lead to a temporary fall, from which the hero fights his way back by discovering (or rediscovering) his courage.

Mistrust is another one. Thinking he's been betrayed could make him turn on the people who were his former allies.


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## Penpilot (Apr 5, 2012)

I think a hero can fail and make bad choices and still remain the hero. Readers dig that stuff. The fall of a hero and their redemption, that's classic. I think the key is just showing their struggles with to drink or not to drink. And as said above, a person can do something bad and know they're doing something bad and still do it. It's why it's called temptation. It's like when you're a kid and you sneak a cookie before dinner. You know it's wrong, but you do it anyway. Sometimes you might feel guilty for doing it. Others times, you might revel in getting away with it. Eventually you have to make a choice. Do you keep sneaking cookies or stop. That's the turning point.


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## Phin Scardaw (Apr 5, 2012)

Penpilot said:


> I think the key is just showing their struggles with to drink or not to drink. And as said above, a person can do something bad and know they're doing something bad and still do it. It's why it's called temptation. It's like when you're a kid and you sneak a cookie before dinner. You know it's wrong, but you do it anyway.



Yeah, maybe Olan can go to Bloodsuckers Anonymous? I'm sure there must be a twelve-step program or something for vampires...

;-)


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## Ireth (Apr 5, 2012)

Phin Scardaw said:


> Yeah, maybe Olan can go to Bloodsuckers Anonymous? I'm sure there must be a twelve-step program or something for vampires...
> 
> ;-)



*giggles* "I am a nice vampire, not a mindless killing machine. If I am to change this image, I must first change myself. Humans are friends, not food!" I'm sure there are vampires who would try that kind of thing.


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## Rullenzar (Apr 5, 2012)

*I deleted my posts aside from the very first one as I'm disappointed in myself for getting caught up in a childish argument over nothing. Not fair to Ireth or anyone else to have to read that nonsense. I apologize to Ireth.*

On the side of your story issue, i think I saw someone bring up a good point. You could have someone your character trusts trick him into having human blood. Swapping out whatever kind of blood your having him eat with humans and either having him like it or not like it. If he likes it he could ask for more thinking it's fresh pigs blood or whatever and once he is done eating his friend drops the bomb on him and he feels disgusted with himself. He is still the same character like this and he's been corrupted . 

Something else you could try is putting his life in danger if he doesn't take any humans blood. Either coming up with something like you must have humans blood once every so many days/years etc.. because the non-human blood can't keep you alive forever. Or maybe he's not as powerful without having human blood and has to have some in order to save someone he loves down the line. Another possibility is he's on his death bed after some kind of event and the only way he can heal is by having humans blood. Does he take it or choose death?


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## Steerpike (Apr 5, 2012)

Rullenzar said:


> *I deleted my posts aside from the very first one as I'm disappointed in myself for getting caught up in a childish argument over nothing. Not fair to Ireth or anyone else to have to read that nonsense. I apologize to Ireth.*



It's OK. Nothing the judicious application of Puss N' Boots eyes won't remedy. You simply employ the following image, and no reasonable person reading past this point in the thread can continue to be upset:








On topic, I still think these external factors get away from what Ireth is talking about and make a less compelling redemption. Why put in place excuses for the character's actions at the outset? Why not just have him do the act for no other reason than he wanted to, without having been tricked into a dependency or without a self-interest like saving his own life. With those other factors in place, you don't really ever need a redemption because he's not really at fault to begin with. At least not entirely. I still prefer the idea that he does it because at that moment in time he wanted to, and so he commits the evil act and has to live with it and redeem himself (or not) later.


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## Rullenzar (Apr 5, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> On topic, I still think these external factors get away from what Ireth is talking about and make a less compelling redemption. Why put in place excuses for the character's actions at the outset? Why not just have him do the act for no other reason than he wanted to, without having been tricked into a dependency or without a self-interest like saving his own life. With those other factors in place, you don't really ever need a redemption because he's not really at fault to begin with. At least not entirely. I still prefer the idea that he does it because at that moment in time he wanted to, and so he commits the evil act and has to live with it and redeem himself (or not) later.



If he just wants to do it this would mean he lets the urge to drink blood take over. It's not very compelling to read 'he just wanted to do it' and there isn't really a redemption in this as he's no longer human but a creature who feeds on blood. Technically he's not doing anything wrong and if he just wants to do it then he believes he's not in the wrong.

*So, that being said if we scroll up to previous posts they stated 'letting the urge take him would change how Ireth wants to portray her character'.* So your kind of contradicting what you said earlier. The options I provided may not be the best but in each case he's forced to do something he swore not to and in his mind he needs to be redeemed for it. I'm not saying anyone is wrong here just confused on why your changing your position now.


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## Steerpike (Apr 5, 2012)

Rullenzar said:


> *So, that being said if we scroll up to previous posts they stated 'letting the urge take him would change how Ireth wants to portray her character'.* So your kind of contradicting what you said earlier. The options I provided may not be the best but in each case he's forced to do something he swore not to and in his mind he needs to be redeemed for it. I'm not saying anyone is wrong here just confused on why your changing your position now.



I'm not changing it. I'm not saying he is letting the urge take over. That would compel him to act whether he wants to or not. What I took from Ireth's original post is that he has control of himself, he knows he is wrong, and yet he does it anyway. That's what I mean by he just wants to do it. Not that he is being compelled. And if that's the approach, I would just depict the character as going through with this act with no justification that he can fall back on. That's when you have someone who has to be redeemed. If he's justified in some way, there is no need for redemption.


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## Rullenzar (Apr 5, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> From what you are saying, he is in complete control of himself, he knows it is wrong, and he does it any way.



This is different, i didn't see this before. From posts at the start people were saying no matter what he will not drink blood and that's who he is. Nobody said anything about him not caring and starting out as any normal vampire who changes his stance later. See this makes sense but I was still operating under the illusion that Ireth still wanted him to be goody goody from the get go.


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## Steerpike (Apr 5, 2012)

Rullenzar said:


> See this makes sense but I was operating under the illusion that Ireth still wanted him to be goody goody from the get go.



Ah. I was viewing it differently. Well, the good thing is that Ireth has a lot of feedback to go on from many points of view, and so do others that read the threads. Maybe we'll get to see the end result


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## Ireth (Apr 5, 2012)

Rullenzar said:


> *I deleted my posts aside from the very first one as I'm disappointed in myself for getting caught up in a childish argument over nothing. Not fair to Ireth or anyone else to have to read that nonsense. I apologize to Ireth.*



Apology accepted. 



Rullenzar said:


> On the side of your story issue, i think I saw someone bring up a good point. You could have someone your character trusts trick him into having human blood. Swapping out whatever kind of blood your having him eat with humans and either having him like it or not like it. If he likes it he could ask for more thinking it's fresh pigs blood or whatever and once he is done eating his friend drops the bomb on him and he feels disgusted with himself. He is still the same character like this and he's been corrupted .



That's possible, though he'd likely know right away that what he's drinking isn't anything he's tasted before -- human blood is quite different than animal blood, both in flavor and quality. He'd probably taste it and ask "Hey, what's this? It's different," and then the bomb is dropped. So it could possibly work.



Rullenzar said:


> Something else you could try is putting his life in danger if he doesn't take any humans blood. Either coming up with something like you must have humans blood once every so many days/years etc.. because the non-human blood can't keep you alive forever. Or maybe he's not as powerful without having human blood and has to have some in order to save someone he loves down the line. Another possibility is he's on his death bed after some kind of event and the only way he can heal is by having humans blood. Does he take it or choose death?



I dunno about the first idea; I like the thought of there being vampires who can survive on non-human blood and resist the temptation to drink it forever. Thinking in terms of actual beverages, animal blood is analogous to water (necessary for survival, period) while human blood is more like wine (not necessary for survival, but tastes better than water and potentially addicting). I could go further with that analogy and say that human blood is like alcohol in that it actually dehydrates a vampire, making them thirstier so they'll drink more.

As for the third option, that's more or less what happens in the scene I was considering corrupting the hero in in the first place. He's just escaped from the villain and his mooks, they're hot on his heels, and he's been going without food or rest to not waste time and escape them faster. He finally makes it to safety, and he's weakened and starving. (Vampires can't starve to death, they just go a bit crazy.) The first living being he meets is a young human boy, whom he immediately tries to bite out of sheer desperation for blood. In the first draft he doesn't actually bite him before another vampire intervenes and feeds him some animal blood, but I may change that.

That's actually close to what happened to turn the villain into a vampire -- as a human he was poisoned at a banquet, the poison screwed with his mind, and he drank his wife's blood to try and save himself, accidentally poisoning her in the process. She died for real, but he was cursed by the Crone goddess and became the first vampire.



Steerpike said:


> On topic, I still think these external factors get away from what Ireth is talking about and make a less compelling redemption. Why put in place excuses for the character's actions at the outset? Why not just have him do the act for no other reason than he wanted to, without having been tricked into a dependency or without a self-interest like saving his own life. With those other factors in place, you don't really ever need a redemption because he's not really at fault to begin with. At least not entirely. I still prefer the idea that he does it because at that moment in time he wanted to, and so he commits the evil act and has to live with it and redeem himself (or not) later.



*nodnod* I set up a moment like this about midway through the novel, only to subvert it on purpose for plot reasons. Olan tracks down a human villain who wronged his friends or family somehow (in the first draft it was a man who tried to rape his sister, but I'm really thinking about changing that in the second draft), and just when he thinks he's caught him, another vampire swoops in and steals his kill. This vampire leads Olan down to the underground city of the vampires, where he meets Conall and realizes fully what drinking human blood over an extended period does to a vampire.



Rullenzar said:


> This is different, i didn't see this before. From posts at the start people were saying no matter what he will not drink blood and that's who he is. Nobody said anything about him not caring and starting out as any normal vampire who changes his stance later. See this makes sense but I was still operating under the illusion that Ireth still wanted him to be goody goody from the get go.



I see what you're getting at here. Olan drinks _animal_ blood right from the get go -- his first victim is a dog belonging to his father. It's _human_ blood he despises most and wants nothing to do with; that's the driving force behind him leaving home, to keep his human family safe from himself. I suppose that might still make him a "goody-goody" to some people, but I think it's normal. Even Conall, the villain/vampire prototype, didn't drink human blood for his first meal  -- though that was mostly because someone stopped him from mistakenly murdering the brother of his poisoner rather than the poisoner himself, who had been hanged before Conall rose from the grave. He ended up killing a sheep instead. And after Conall created the second vampire*, he brought him a deer to feed from rather than a person. It was only after he killed his second wife in their wedding bed that Conall gave up trying to resist the urge for human blood.

*this act was not on purpose -- Conall told his human friend to leave when Conall got hungry, but the friend ran instead of walking away and Conall's instincts took over; then he was overcome with remorse at draining his friend and tried to "give the blood back", making him drink it and thus turning him. The friend was less than pleased when he woke up three days later, but eventually forgave him.


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## The Din (Apr 5, 2012)

What if he were forced to kill someone to join some exclusive group? Perhaps he finds himself a bum/hooker/convict/addict who seems hellbent on offing themselves anyway, only after he sees what he's done does become horrified and set about redeeming himself.

Maybe he finds someone about to jump off a bridge and solves the problem for them, only to meet a family member who tells him that the victim just likes bridges or something.


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## Ireth (Apr 5, 2012)

The Din said:


> What if he were forced to kill someone to join some exclusive group? Perhaps he finds himself a bum/hooker/convict/addict who seems hellbent on offing themselves anyway, only after he sees what he's done does become horrified and set about redeeming himself.
> 
> Maybe he finds someone about to jump off a bridge and solves the problem for them, only to meet a family member who tells him that the victim just likes bridges or something.



I don't think assisting someone with a suicide would necessarily have the same psychological effect as killing someone in cold blood. If, say, it's a bum or a hooker who's been mugged and/or beaten and is close to death anyway, then he'd consider it a mercy killing. He wouldn't feel much remorse about it at all. And I think, after some consideration, that it's much the same with vengeance -- if the person deserves to die for their crimes, then he'd have very little if any regret. The starving situation I mentioned above might be the most angst-inducing and drive him toward wanting redemption the most. Or just the killing of any innocent person who neither wants to die nor deserves to.

The _physical_ corruption is another issue. It partly involves the slow, painful growth of wings from the vampire's back, beginning after they first drink human blood and continuing until they either die or achieve redemption. The wings begin small and weak, and grow bigger and stronger more quickly with every human the vampire kills after the first. Very corrupted vampires eventually attain the power of flight. The wings only grow out when the vampire is in full direct sunlight. The upside is, since the story is set in super-rainy Scotland, how often is that going to happen? The downside is, for those who haven't yet achieved flight, their wings are heavy and awkward, not to mention terrifying to any human who sees them in the sunlight.

I bring this up mostly because physically corrupting my hero by giving him wings etc., especially if he gets corrupted without a moral qualm about the action he partakes in to have earned it, runs the risk of making him little better than the villain. He might decide that he should take advantage of his wings, make them grow as big and strong as possible by killing lots of humans, and then move somewhere sunny so he can make use of them to kill even _more_ humans. I'm not interested in writing a journey-from-hero-to-villain story with this guy, so that will have to change somehow.


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## Phin Scardaw (Apr 5, 2012)

All you need to ask yourself is this: 

What would push an adolescent gay vampire to suck someone to death???

probably not very much, actually...


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