# How can I call myself a writerâ€¦



## Nimue (Jan 11, 2017)

…when I don't consistently write?  The answer to that is I can't, and I don't.  I haven't written anything for a month, and that's been more the rule than the exception, this year and many others.  I have nothing to contribute here, because I haven't been writing.  I haven't been to my writer's group in months.  It's pointless to research or study craft because I don't actually write.

It's been almost a year since I started my current main project.  In that time, I have barely cleared 30k words on it.  That is it.  It's not as though this is the kind of draft that would justify four years being spent on it (at this rate)--it's completely raw.  In that time I've also written a couple short stories and some words on a useless side project, but in total… I've written less than 50k this year.  _People write that in a month._  Writers manage three thousand words a day and finish entire series by the time they're twenty-five.  Everyone has finished _something_ to be proud of, and my high-water mark is a years-old unfinished 80k draft of truly limp plot and awful prose.  Am I the only one who struggles this much over so little?

At this point I don't know if I even want to hear someone say they write that slowly and they've made it work, somehow, or if I want to hear that I'm right, I'm not cut out for this; I should stop pretending at goals or improvement and sit in the corner with my daydreams, moving characters around like dolls in shallow scenes without plot or substance, as I did when I was a kid.  It's not as though I've made it much beyond that.  Just writing for my own entertainment, to scratch that peculiar itch.  For what that's worth, it would be better to simply read more and find someone who's written what I want to, but done it well.

It's only realistic: not everybody creates something worth reading.  I look at who I am and what little I've done so far and think, "Sorry, honey.  This is not happening."

Sorry about the word vomit.  Probably should not post unhelpful shit like this, but I just wanted to vent & explain why I'm not around. Can't cut it.


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## ThinkerX (Jan 12, 2017)

1 - I found your 'Top Scribe' tales to be very good.  Publishable.

2 - 'Writers do 3000 words a day? 50K a month?'  I wish.  My personal best is about 2500 a day and 48,000 a month.  Right now, 1000 words a day is pretty good.


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## La Volpe (Jan 12, 2017)

I've actually also been off the writing rails for a bit (trying to get myself started again now). But your story makes me think of this bit in Stephen King's _On Writing_:

A friend came to visit James Joyce one day and found the great man sprawled across his writing desk in a posture of utter despair.

'James, what’s wrong?' the friend asked. 'Is it the work?'

Joyce indicated assent without even raising his head to look at his friend. Of course it was the work; isn’t it always?

'How many words did you get today?' the friend pursued.

Joyce (still in despair, still sprawled facedown on his desk): 'Seven.'

'Seven? But James… that’s good, at least for you.'

'Yes,' Joyce said, finally looking up. 'I suppose it is… but I don’t know what order they go in!'​
The moral I take from this: Some people write a million words a day; others write only one book in a lifetime. There's a whole spectrum of writers, and even if you don't write much, you're still a writer.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jan 12, 2017)

Let's suppose that a golfer never makes it to the PGA tour. Are they still a hilfer? Let's suppose that golfer only hits nine holes once a month during the summer. Are they still a golfer. They are. Because a golfer is a person who golf. In a similar vein a writer is a person who writes. It doesn't matter how much or little or the frequency so long as they write. 

Fir myself I have gone months without writing a word but I am still a writer because I will always write. I may never get published but I will write and that's okay with me. Just like how I golf. I may never get on the tour but I will always go back the golfing.


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## Gribba (Jan 12, 2017)

I had it, like you for a long time and was convinced, that I could not call myself a writer without having published something.
Few years ago, I began going to archery training and I love it, enjoy it and I do my best every time I go shooting. Sometimes I shoot like a pro and other times I am not that great... but I realized that regardless of the level, professional or not, I am still shooting the target as best as I can, training as much as I can and work to be better at it when I can, I am an archer, regardless if I am a pro or not.

So it hit me, I am a writer, I might not be a professional writer but I write when I can, as much as I can and I have the sorties in my head, waiting for me to write them, be it in a notebook or a computer. The stories are there and I will write them, regardless of the time frame it will be in, therefor I will always be a writer! And so are you!


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## Miskatonic (Jan 12, 2017)

Nimue said:


> …when I don't consistently write?  The answer to that is I can't, and I don't.  I haven't written anything for a month, and that's been more the rule than the exception, this year and many others.  I have nothing to contribute here, because I haven't been writing.  I haven't been to my writer's group in months.  It's pointless to research or study craft because I don't actually write.
> 
> It's been almost a year since I started my current main project.  In that time, I have barely cleared 30k words on it.  That is it.  It's not as though this is the kind of draft that would justify four years being spent on it (at this rate)--it's completely raw.  In that time I've also written a couple short stories and some words on a useless side project, but in total… I've written less than 50k this year.  _People write that in a month._  Writers manage three thousand words a day and finish entire series by the time they're twenty-five.  Everyone has finished _something_ to be proud of, and my high-water mark is a years-old unfinished 80k draft of truly limp plot and awful prose.  Am I the only one who struggles this much over so little?
> 
> ...



I'm in the same boat so I can sympathize. I can sit and brainstorm all day but actually sitting down in front of the computer consistently and writing the story is something I struggle with constantly.


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## Ban (Jan 12, 2017)

Perhaps I should write something motivating, but the other people on this thread have already done that rather well. So I'll just skip to the advice stage. Take a break, read a bit, do some non-literary creative stuff, and then come back to writing when it feels right again.


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## Thomas Laszlo (Jan 12, 2017)

Hey mate, if you have a lull or even if you right like this consistently, you're a writer. Your issue here is just sitting down to write. Trust me I don't do it either, and I won't say that your wrong because I think with the goals you have in mind your right, but think: The author of Divergence took her whole highschool and two years of her college career to write and publish it. The other three came out within one to two years after the each progressive novel. Which was better: The first. 

My point here is don't get down. You don't have any specific obligation to write as far as I know? So then you have no deadlines! Tale ten years to write and edit your writing and re-write etc. 

I have an obligation to write, and I haven't been (sorry Devon, Creed, and Banten) So youre beating me  XD


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FifthView (Jan 12, 2017)

Gribba said:


> So it hit me, I am a writer, I might not be a professional writer but I write when I can, as much as I can and I have the *sorties* in my head, waiting for me to write them, be it in a notebook or a computer. The *stories* are there and I will write them, regardless of the time frame it will be in, therefor I will always be a writer! And so are you!



Oh this is great serendipity.  Yes, sometimes there are stories, and sometimes there are only furtive sorties.  But either way, the battle is far from over.....


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 12, 2017)

Nimue said:


> …when I don't consistently write?  The answer to that is I can't, and I don't.  I haven't written anything for a month, and that's been more the rule than the exception, this year and many others.  I have nothing to contribute here, because I haven't been writing.  I haven't been to my writer's group in months.  It's pointless to research or study craft because I don't actually write.
> 
> It's been almost a year since I started my current main project.  In that time, I have barely cleared 30k words on it.  That is it.  It's not as though this is the kind of draft that would justify four years being spent on it (at this rate)--it's completely raw.  In that time I've also written a couple short stories and some words on a useless side project, but in total… I've written less than 50k this year.  _People write that in a month._  Writers manage three thousand words a day and finish entire series by the time they're twenty-five.  Everyone has finished _something_ to be proud of, and my high-water mark is a years-old unfinished 80k draft of truly limp plot and awful prose.  Am I the only one who struggles this much over so little?
> 
> ...



Please don't despair, Nimue!! 

From what I've read of the stuff you've posted in challenges, you're a very good writer. I love your rich, sensuous style. 

You can work at improving your word count. Set a small daily goal, even 10 minutes a day. Set a goal so small you can hardly not complete it. Then build up. I did that at the beginning of the year and my stamina has seriously increased. I have a habit now. 

And writing stories for our own entertainment...that's pretty much what we all do. We write because we don't see what we want to read on the shelves in many cases. Its a perfectly legitimate reason to write.


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## Heliotrope (Jan 12, 2017)

George RR Martin puts out a book every five- ten years, so he must not be a writer. Jk Rowling spent seven years just plotting Harry Potter. She must not be a writer either. Neil Gaiman sets his goal at 1000 words per day. He must not be a writer. Margaret Atwood does 2000 words/day. I guess she's not a writer either. 

Where are you getting these ridiculous expectations? 50,000 words a month? Are you kidding me? 

I'm not a writer either. I've never published anything except a few poems. But I like writing, and I'm going to keep plugging away at it. Chipping away, little bits at a time. But me goals are maybe different? I'm not in it for fame or fortune. I have a job and a family so I don't need a pay check or a deadline. I just want to write the best stories I can, and see what happens, no matter how long that takes.


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## Malik (Jan 12, 2017)

Typing is not writing.

Everything you need to know about word count is here.

Stitches and Glue | Joseph Malik

Warning: adult content (profanity, literary theory).

I spent 25 years working on my first book. Researching, writing, submitting, rewriting, studying the craft, taking professional writing gigs, resubmitting. 

I walked away from it twice. I finally put it down completely for years and didn't write a word of fiction until I was injured on a deployment and found the books again on an old hard drive in the hospital. And even then, with literally nothing to do but sit there and write, I tinkered with it off and on, and then did rewrites for nearly four years before publishing. 96,000 words in 25 years. That's averaging ten words per day.

Time you spend researching, time you spend reading, time you spend journaling, time you spend sitting at your desk listening to music and twirling a pen and daydreaming; this is all writing time. It all feeds the monster.

Granted, Book II came much faster, but it's still going to take a year.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jan 12, 2017)

You are a writer Nimue, because you care enough to question yourself. Because presumably you want to be.

You say you haven't written for a month? I haven't written properly for 7 months; I finished my CW degree and then just had a writing detox, and I'm still trying to get back in the saddle.  But do I still think of myself as a writer? Of course!  It is true that the great enemy of writers is a lack of productivity, but being a writer does not begin and end when you put pen to paper.  When you make a mental note of a particular name that you really like, or when you sit in a cafÃ© and remember a snatch of conversation you hear because of the vivid insight it gives into the people.  When you watch a film and rearrange the twist in your head because it could have been so much better, or just have a strange feeling about something that you wish you could put into words.  We are writers because this is how we express ourselves.  I am still a writer because that is my most honest, satisfying way of being creative.  A musician is not a musician only when they sit down at a piano, there is so much that goes on before they can play the 1st note.  

Writing is a very solitary activity, and a very internal, personal one.  It must be for yourself first, you are getting hung up on the output of the most productive writers, what we see on the surface. Stories don't just spring from the pen fully formed, they come from the imagination, drawing on years of personal experience of just living.  All you have to do is think if you want to call yourself a writer.  If you do, then all you need to do is focus on your imagination.  Pay attention to it, encourage it.  Only a fraction of being a writer is the physical, tangible papers.  Good luck.


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## Malik (Jan 12, 2017)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> When you make a mental note of a particular name that you really like, or when you sit in a cafÃ© and remember a snatch of conversation you hear because of the vivid insight it gives into the people. When you watch a film and rearrange the twist in your head because it could have been so much better, or just have a strange feeling about something that you wish you could put into words. We are writers because this is how we express ourselves. I am still a writer because that is my most honest, satisfying way of being creative. A musician is not a musician only when they sit down at a piano, there is so much that goes on before they can play the 1st note.



Goddamn right.


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## Ronald T. (Jan 12, 2017)

Dear Nimue, it breaks my heart to see you so filled with despair and self-loathing over your writing schedule or what you perceive to be quality unworthy of praise.  I've been there, and I know how painful it is to feel that way.  

But I would ask you to be as generous with yourself as you are with other writers.  I'm quite positive that if you read a post like the one you just shared with us, you would be one of the first to offer loving and supportive advice, and you would do your best to come up with a way to lift that writer's spirits.  As difficult as it will be, you must find a way to extend that love and support to yourself.  No matter how you feel right now, _you are a writer._it is an intrinsic part of who you are.  The trick to beating this kind of false self-image is to be as kind and generous to yourself as you would wish to be with others.  You are worth that same personal effort.

Clearly, you're in a dark place at the moment, and you see no light at the end of the tunnel.  But the light is there, just waiting for you to show your determination to never give up.  

You are a writer, and you always will be, if you don't let the darkness destroy that creative part of you that wishes so desperately and profoundly to be heard.  

My hope is, you will be as kind to yourself as you are to your friends.

I wish you only the best.


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## Chessie (Jan 12, 2017)

@ Nimue, please don't think that in order to contribute to these forums you need to write consistently. Many of us here enjoy your presence and you already know what I think about your stories so...*hugs*

If it's any consolation, I'm about to turn 39 in a few weeks. I stopped writing at age 22 for ELEVEN years because I couldn't get traditionally published. I didn't give a shit anymore. Until one day, I wrote down a phrase, which was a blip of a scene. The next day, I wrote a bit more, and the day after that a bit more, and I never stopped. That was six years ago. It came back to me—writing—like an old passionate flame and didn't let go. So, it's going to be okay.

From what I recall, you're fairly young still. Use this time to live, learn, mature into the fine wine of a woman that you're to become. One thing about writing that I believe to be true is that writers get better with a combination of aging + practice. Being older and wiser brings a deeper understanding of people and life situations that you don't have the same ability to discern and understand when you're younger. You see the world through different lenses, you become hardened and realistic. Not in a bad way, but in the sense that it does take a fuller understanding of the world to write good fiction. So, my dear, this time of yours is being far from wasted.

It all comes down to what you want, too. If all you want to do is read right now, then read. Don't worry about writing right now, perhaps you need a hiatus. And whenever you do decide to write again, don't go back to your writing group. Lol. Tell the stories that fuel your creativity, respect yourself as an artist, and know that it'll all work out. Ten years down the road you might be crazy for it. Don't despair.  xoxox


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## Chessie (Jan 12, 2017)

Also, as a side note, whenever you do feel like writing again please know that it takes a serious amount of discipline, which is only achieved over time. If you're thinking that you should be writing way more than you are because others...then that's only going to stress out. Books don't write themselves, clearly, they're written one word after the other. When you finally are able to let go of giving a shit about anyone and anything but your creative voice, then you'll be surprised at what comes out. 

And how quickly those words will come, too.

Putting in strong word counts is achievable in smaller chunks. Like word sprints, time sprints, etc. Daily work. DAILY. A lot of writers are put off by that but this goes to show that no, you aren't going to be writing daily when you're mentally not there. Don't torture yourself, girl! When your mojo comes back, don't expect to be putting in 50k in a month. Start in small, incremental steps. It's taken me two ****ing years to get to the point where I'm putting in 50k a month. And I'm slow compared to other writers in my Indie group. It's taken them years, too. So no, it's not something anyone just does. 

**Also, my word counts aren't always "good" words per say.** I spent two hours yesterday cleaning up my current manuscript, deleting stupid shit that didn't even make sense. So while I do put in my word counts, much of the time those words get deleted or replaced for new ones. It isn't so clear cut as 50k!


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## Ronald T. (Jan 12, 2017)

Such good advice, Chessie.


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## FifthView (Jan 12, 2017)

Chessie said:


> When you finally are able to let go of giving a shit about anyone and anything but your creative voice, then you'll be surprised at what comes out.



This was me last night:

I was in bed with my new laptop and laptop table, my lovely Scrivener open up, and me ready to begin a new chapter.  I have the story in my head and so many words in my head, but I just couldn't marry the two.  So I stared at a blank screen for a long time.  Finally, I began to write, "It was a warm and windy day".... I looked at it.  Immediately, 1000 voices began screaming back, _It was a dark and stormy night!!!  Nyah nyah nyah!!_  I deleted the line, closed my laptop, and prepared for sleep.  I'd had enough of that, thank you very much!


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## Chessie (Jan 12, 2017)

FifthView said:


> This was me last night:
> 
> I was in bed with my new laptop and laptop table, my lovely Scrivener open up, and me ready to begin a new chapter.  I have the story in my head and so many words in my head, but I just couldn't marry the two.  So I stared at a blank screen for a long time.  Finally, I began to write, "It was a warm and windy day".... I looked at it.  Immediately, 1000 voices began screaming back, _It was a dark and stormy night!!!  Nyah nyah nyah!!_  I deleted the line, closed my laptop, and prepared for sleep.  I'd had enough of that, thank you very much!



Are you saying that you had enough of creative voice? What a shame.


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## Heliotrope (Jan 12, 2017)

I'm with Chessie on the creative voice.

 The more I make my editor shut up, the more my crit partners like my work. WTF? But I found it was the same with one of my partners. The more time she spent trying to sound "professional" the more drained of blood her work felt. She would send me these super early "what do you think of this concept?" drafts and I they would be AMAZING! Then she would "clean them up" and they would come back as zombies. The walking dead. White, cold, lifeless words. Boring. 

What happened? She got too self conscious. It was a shame. But I did the same thing. After I just let go and let the words flow things got way better. 

Why? I think readers actually want to hear "my" voice, as weird as that seems. I have things to say, and I have a certain way of saying them that is only natural to me. I'm self conscious of my voice and think "oh, it's not so great" but to my readers it's new and different because it's not their voice. 

That is a roundabout way of saying keep "It was a dark and stormy night." Many great chapters have started with less than that.


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## Chessie (Jan 12, 2017)

I seriously don't even care what any other writer that's not my buddy says about my work. But that's another topic for discussion and I don't want to derail Nimue's thread (although I'm curious as to WHY she just hasn't been writing. Why? What is it??)


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## FifthView (Jan 12, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> That is a roundabout way of saying keep "It was a dark and stormy night." Many great chapters have started with less than that.



I feel properly chastised.

But wait, if I listen to your voice, I'm not properly shutting it out and letting my own creative voice reign supreme!  

Nimue had mentioned awful prose, and the feeling is something I can easily understand.  Happens to me.

And "not writing" for a day or three or months may not suddenly switch a person from being a writer to being a non-writer – although I think there might a paradox in them thar words. :confused-sign:

Helio, many great chapters may start with less than that, but my goal is not to write those chapters but write my own.  So nyah nyah.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jan 12, 2017)

It was a dark and stormy consciousness full of purple thoughts, running like rivulets of rain down the glass of her eyes, blurring the stark white of the blank page.


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## Heliotrope (Jan 12, 2017)

True, though I'd argue that if you use it just to start, and you whip through a thousand words with your editor shut off, and then you go back and change them later once a better idea comes to you... 

Isn't it better to write a thousand words and only keep half, than to write none at all because your editor is telling you you suck? 

This took me a while to understand myself lol. They aren't etched in stone. A lot of my first drafts are a thousand words of something that looks like this: 

_It was dark outside. The moon was shining though, so not pitch dark. Across the street the neighbors garage lights flicked on, but only for an instant before going dark again. Mr. Johnson had probably just grabbed a beer from the outside fridge. 

Martin wanted a beer. A cold one. A brew, like the guys back home used to call it. "Hey man," they'd call out from in front the glaring tv screen, "pass me a brew." 

Martin had no brew though. Or a tv. Or anyone to share the loneliness. _

Maybe not obvious through the internet, but that was stream of consciousness writing. Just whatever. Get it out there and see what comes out. Later I can edit... fix the lame stuff. 

Anyway, yeah, I don't want to derail Nimue's thread either.


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## Chessie (Jan 12, 2017)

Demesnedenoir said:


> It was a dark and stormy consciousness full of purple thoughts, running like rivulets of rain down the glass of her eyes, blurring the stark white of the blank page.



An autumn storm lashed and whirled against her window. The deadline was tomorrow and she'd only produced about twenty-five words in three hours of sitting. Twenty-five uninteresting, nauseating words. One for every year she'd been working on this novel.


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## Chessie (Jan 12, 2017)

I'm here all day.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jan 12, 2017)

Hopefully without derailing, as there has been much well said in this thread...

There is a fine line between finding voice and going castrated writer voice, heh heh. The problem is that writers tend to have both Jekyl and Hyde living inside of them. One loves the writing, the other hates the writing, and this can flip from day to day, LOL. 

I've critiqued writers who've answered "that's my voice, I'll sound bland if I get rid of XYZ". This has happened more than once. The truth is a bit different. Refining the prose refines the voice, makes it stronger. I think the problem comes when someone says to the writer "you're using too many -ly adverbs" and the writer goes crap! And just deletes adverbs, goes for clean and grammatical without considering that the adverbs can be replaced, not simply deleted, and then not always. This can go for a whole lot of different writing critiques. 

That said, I think it can be useful for a writer to reach a point of castrated writer voice, so that they then can back off of that and find their voice, more concise and clean than before. It's a form of deconstruction of the prose, and it is probably rather instructional. It certainly isn't a mandatory stage in a writer's journey, but I've seen it work for a couple people.

Voice is a tricky thing when it come to critique too, I don't think I fully appreciate anybody's voice until 20k words into a novel. Every writer with a strong voice is a bit like a new haircut... it sucks until you're used to it. Most writers, unfortunately tend to be "meh" as far as voice goes. Such as the writer I promised to never pick on again... ::cough" Sanderson ::cough cough::

I think I've achieved a voice, I just don't know if it's a good one LOL.



Heliotrope said:


> I'm with Chessie on the creative voice.
> 
> The more I make my editor shut up, the more my crit partners like my work. WTF? But I found it was the same with one of my partners. The more time she spent trying to sound "professional" the more drained of blood her work felt. She would send me these super early "what do you think of this concept?" drafts and I they would be AMAZING! Then she would "clean them up" and they would come back as zombies. The walking dead. White, cold, lifeless words. Boring.
> 
> ...


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## Deleted member 4265 (Jan 12, 2017)

I know this feeling. I call myself an aspiring writer because I've never finished _anything_. Seriously, I've tried writing short fiction and it just doesn't work. So yeah when I finish something - and I mean really finish like edit it and polish it up until it reads like a publishable manuscript although I wouldn't say no to finishing a rough draft - that's wen I'll consider myself a real writer.

I know people say, "if you write, you're a writer" and that'd be encouraging if I believed it but my personal view is that you're not a writer until you feel like a writer. I think we all have our own personal ideas of what a writer is and in order to be a writer we have to be like that. For me a writer is someone who has finished something and is ready to share it (writing for solely for personal enjoyment is an admirable thing, but I wouldn't consider such a person a writer. Others are free to disagree) When I've finished my WIP and its in a fit state for a beta reader, that's when I'll consider myself to be a writer.

What I'm trying to say is, if you don't feel like a writer, you're not. If you want to be a writer, you've got to do what writers do, whatever that means to you. If that means finishing things. Finish things. If that means writing every day make yourself write everyday. If it means writing "well", nobody writes flawless prose all the time, every day (or even most days) but if the quality of your writing seriously bothers you, and not just because you're feeling down. You can improve. You can study the craft, you can ruthlessly edit as you write until you're satisfied. If you want to be a writer, you'll find a way to do it.

Sorry, if that's harsh.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jan 12, 2017)

I got a hat for Christmas that says "WRITER", therefore...


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## Chessie (Jan 12, 2017)

Devouring Wolf said:


> I know this feeling. I call myself an aspiring writer because I've never finished _anything_. Seriously, I've tried writing short fiction and it just doesn't work. So yeah when I finish something - and I mean really finish like edit it and polish it up until it reads like a publishable manuscript although I wouldn't say no to finishing a rough draft - that's wen I'll consider myself a real writer.
> 
> I know people say, "if you write, you're a writer" and that'd be encouraging if I believed it but my personal view is that you're not a writer until you feel like a writer. I think we all have our own personal ideas of what a writer is and in order to be a writer we have to be like that. For me a writer is someone who has finished something and is ready to share it (writing for solely for personal enjoyment is an admirable thing, but I wouldn't consider such a person a writer. Others are free to disagree) When I've finished my WIP and its in a fit state for a beta reader, that's when I'll consider myself to be a writer.
> 
> ...


I do like your response, however, the part in bold stood out to me. Writing books is simply storytelling using the written word. When we focus on it only being about prose, we miss the point. A honed voice is not the same as pretty prose. Is it maybe where Nimue is getting hung up? I question this because she writes with slow, methodical precision and beautiful words...but could that maybe be part of the problem? Striving for perfection? Not to insult the way Nimue does things, but I'm curious. Some of the best books I've read had strong voices where the prose seemed invisible.


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## Gribba (Jan 12, 2017)

Hahahaha... oh dear... spelling mistakes can sometimes make sense... :redface:  



Gribba said:


> So it hit me, I am a writer, I might not be a professional writer but I write when I can, as much as I can and I have the *sorties* in my head, waiting for me to write them, be it in a notebook or a computer. The *stories* are there and I will write them, regardless of the time frame it will be in, therefor I will always be a writer! And so are you!





FifthView said:


> Oh this is great serendipity.  Yes, sometimes there are stories, and sometimes there are only furtive sorties.  But either way, the battle is far from over.....


:goodjob:


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## FifthView (Jan 12, 2017)

Nimue said:


> At this point I don't know if I even want to hear someone say they write that slowly and they've made it work, somehow, or if I want to hear that I'm right, I'm not cut out for this; I should stop pretending at goals or improvement and sit in the corner with my daydreams, moving characters around like dolls in shallow scenes without plot or substance, as I did when I was a kid.  It's not as though I've made it much beyond that.  Just writing for my own entertainment, to scratch that peculiar itch.  For what that's worth, it would be better to simply read more and find someone who's written what I want to, but done it well.
> 
> It's only realistic: not everybody creates something worth reading.  I look at who I am and what little I've done so far and think, "Sorry, honey.  This is not happening."



I don't know if anything I have to say will make much difference, but...

I think "being a writer" might not be like being a human, an American or Canadian or Earthling....Something you are 100% of the time or never yet and maybe never ever.

You're either writing, or you're not, and neither is bad unless you want to be the other and aren't.

I once threw myself into studying poetry, for about a decade, and there have been years when I wrote volumes of poetry.  But I reached a point where I realized that although I had the tools (more or less) and the theory and could propose a subject for myself, I had nothing much to say.  It's not that I had absolutely nothing to say, but only that poetry as a medium was not meet for what I wanted to say at that point in my life.  Until I realized this, I was extremely frustrated and felt stupid, thinking I'd wasted a decade trying to be something I'm not–the poems only trickled out now and weren't very satisfying.

And then I spent some years blogging.  More like, online essay writing with some random miscellaneous blogging also thrown in.  I had a lot to say.  Most of this stuff was thrown to the wind, self-pubbed on my blog and read by a steady circle of like-minded folk, although I did have one really crappy essay published eventually by someone who'd first read it on my blog.  But eventually, I closed the blog.  I still had a lot to say, and the essay form probably suits me better than anything else (witness my long and...well, comments here), but I wanted to give up those careful, analytical essays into real world topics which were beginning to bore me anyway.  Maybe "bore" isn't the right word, because I'm still greatly interested in real world topics.  But I wanted to indulge my imagination in ways that I couldn't through the essay form.  Also, I realized that writing essays and blogging them was often about trying to influence minds, for me (in addition to just trying to clear up my own)....and I simply made a sharp turn away from that.  It would be so much more fun to entertain myself and others without always trying to influence or persuade, and I missed writing fiction which was something I'd done when I was much younger.  I wanted to create stories.  But that blog was a long time dying, and I'd begun to feel frustrated and stupid until I finally shut it down and gave up on it.

Now, I have written the above and am now writing this very line, so I must be a writer, just like you were a writer when you wrote the opening post of this thread.  I was writing when I was creating poetry every day and when I was writing hundreds of pages of essays and blog posts.  This might seem a rather ridiculous consideration if your main point is that you want to be a fiction writer, or a novelist.  But my general point, at least one I have gathered from my own personal experience, is that the medium you choose can make a _huge_ difference.  

And sometimes "medium" can be broken down when you are trying to find the right one.  A person can struggle for years to write great epic fantasy, growing in frustration, then suddenly make a go of writing satirical comedic fantasy and have his "voice" roar to life.  Or maybe it's romance fantasy.  Maybe it's not even fantasy fiction but some other genre.  Maybe it's first person instead of third intimate, or an epistolary novel, or poetry.


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## Deleted member 4265 (Jan 12, 2017)

Chessie said:


> I do like your response, however, the part in bold stood out to me. Writing books is simply storytelling using the written word. When we focus on it only being about prose, we miss the point. A honed voice is not the same as pretty prose. Is it maybe where Nimue is getting hung up? I question this because she writes with slow, methodical precision and beautiful words...but could that maybe be part of the problem? Striving for perfection? Not to insult the way Nimue does things, but I'm curious. Some of the best books I've read had strong voices where the prose seemed invisible.




I know from personal experience that being unhappy with your prose can make you feel worthless as a writer. I was always taught to just get things down on paper and polish it up later, but I've finally come to realize I don't work like that. I can't do Nanowrimo style word-vomiting. If a part of my story isn't up to my usual standards it nags at me and makes me feel like I'll never be a writer until I fix it. 

But I do agree with you. A lot of people do get way too hung up on having beautiful prose, but my point was more that Nimue should figure out why she doesn't feel like a writer and work toward changing that whatever it is more than that she should do anything specific. Granted, I sincerely doubt bad prose Nimue's problem. Often times prose is just the scapegoat for some larger problem like not having a strong voice or stumbling over a plot point or character issue. Finding the real issue is usually half the battle.


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## Chessie (Jan 12, 2017)

_ Nanowrimo style word-vomiting_ <--- it's actually not word-vomiting. Fast writing requires practice and patience, but every time someone here pops up with this line of thought it annoys me. Fast writing is not equal to trash. No way at all. Some people (like me) write fast but this doesn't mean our prose is trash. And it's not about the prose anyway. Don't knock it 'til...??


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## Michael K. Eidson (Jan 12, 2017)

Nimue said:


> …
> It's been almost a year since I started my current main project.  In that time, I have barely cleared 30k words on it.  That is it.
> ...



Don't compare yourself to people who are turning out 50k a month, who might have only done that for NaNoWriMo during the month of November. Compare yourself to the people you know who have never attempted to write even a single word of a novel, article, short story, piece of flash fiction, comic book, graphic novel, gaming system or supplement, or a serious piece of poetry. You have 30k words towards a novel. What do they have? Personal emails and texts, scribbled grocery shopping lists, social media status updates, maybe some love letters.

Now tell us, when it comes to writing, what are your aspirations? Will you be happy never coming up with the next 30k words, never thinking about another idea for a novel or short story, never staring at the blank page/screen again with the hope of pouring your soul onto it? As others have said, there is more to being a writer than typing. Word count is not the measure of your worth as a writer.

Moreover, you're trying to decide if you are worthy of a label. Why does the label matter? Live your life. If you are a writer, you will write. No one puts constraints on that for you except yourself. There is no Writing Police going around assessing ideas, examining word counts or checking the quality of writing.

I'm in my late 50s. I've written some short stories and rpg supplements, some of which have been self-published, and some of which have been published by someone else. I've received money for some of what I've written. I've yet to write a novel, and that's my dream. I hardly feel like a writer some days, though technically it could be said that I'm a professional, since I've received money for my writing. But until I complete my novel and it is available to the general public, I won't have the feeling that I want concerning my being a writer. Maybe this is similar to where you are. But I'm not going to let it get me down. I don't care whether people label me as a writer, an author, a professional, a fraud, or something else. I will keep pushing on with my aspirations to the best of my ability within the constraints of my own life. I've been working on my debut novel now for over four years. The end product will be roughly 120k. That's less than 30k a year on the average. If I take another year to finish, that will bring the yearly average down to 24k. So what? It takes what time it takes.

I hope you will not shut down the voice within you that yearns to be shared. It's obvious that you have such a voice. If the way forward seems difficult, well, that's life. Some things come naturally to some people, but they are typically the exception to the rule, and not for the rest of us to compare ourselves against. The rest of us have to put up with some headache and heartache to get to where we want to be.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jan 12, 2017)

While not all 50-60k writing in a month is word vomiting... most nanowrimo is, depending on how one defines word vomiting. Fact is, it's kind of designed to be that... write write write, who cares about quality, just write, sort of stuff.


I could do 50-60k in a month fairly easily in a month, 30 days, 2k per day... not that big of a deal. But that would probably put me at three months to finish the draft of a 150k epic... and 3 months straight of that, I would probably start drinking heavily, which both slows the writing and ruin the prose, and would perhaps taint the stories with incidents of vomiting and hangovers and very slurred dialogue.



Chessie said:


> _ Nanowrimo style word-vomiting_ <--- it's actually not word-vomiting. Fast writing requires practice and patience, but every time someone here pops up with this line of thought it annoys me. Fast writing is not equal to trash. No way at all. Some people (like me) write fast but this doesn't mean our prose is trash. And it's not about the prose anyway. Don't knock it 'til...??


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## Nimue (Jan 12, 2017)

La Volpe said:


> 'How many words did you get today?' the friend pursued.
> 
> Joyce (still in despair, still sprawled facedown on his desk): 'Seven.'
> 
> ...



Reading Finnegan's Wake, I wonder if he ever did figure out the order words go in.  Heh heh...


Sorry for taking so long to reply...I didn't feel equal to writing something up during work, and after work I went and got Thai food with my sister.  Which helped.  But thank you guys for the support, and even if I don't address everything that was said, I do appreciate it.  It's very kind.

I suppose it all boils down to Chester's question: why am I not writing?  Well.  *deep sigh*

Why am I not writing now?  The holidays took a lot out of me, I was sick for a week or so, and work was and is busier than usual.  I was actually a little surprised to realize I've only been dead on the water for a month--it seems like much longer, an interminable stretch of inaction, enforced by traveling and activities and stress.  I say enforced, but of course it wasn't.  I could have written frequently during that time, but instead I didn't try, and took it as a "break", which has become sour and entrenched as I try to get moving again.

But that's not really the question, is it.  Why don't I write?  It tends to follow the same pattern, with counterpoint variations.  Something derails me.  A stressful day, a new game or passion, an immersive book whose world crowds out the world in my head for a while.  Or dissatisfaction taking root around a weak scene or a bad day's prose.  Procrastination ensues.  Guilt creeps in, and I build up the idea of writing in my head as something Important and Difficult.  A test that I'm failing day by day, and most definitively flunk when I try to write a sentence or two and it's contrived and clunky and clearly, I've lost the Spark (and it never existed in the first place, for good measure.  All foxfire.)  The moment I stop writing, I lose all faith in my ability to string words together.  I'll never be able to recapture that feeling.  I'll never be able to come up with anything original again.  The solution there would seem to be _don't stop writing, then,_ but a flake like me never manages that, and that missed day/week becomes another black mark, sign of one's failure, etc, etc.

A little tongue-in-cheek, but the voice in my head has paved the garden path with all those stupid, counterproductive things.  I know it's hard, and it should be hard, and my brain has a million ways of squirming out of doing hard things.

In specific...yes, prose is a sticking point for me.  A bad sentence spoils the whole session.  Even if I mutter "I can edit that later" three times under my breath in the requisite countercurse.  Such a broad gulf between saying something and believing it--witness any advice on how to keep writing and buck up I've posted on this forum.  I think I've actually gotten better at that with my current project, but leaving in the bad writing makes me feel like it's all a house of cards.  If I can't look at a single scene and think it reads well, then what reassurance is there that any of this is worthwhile?

That leads into another problem submerged in this mess... I don't know how to edit.  In theory, of course.  But in practice?  I think this may be common to other non-finishers--I try to stick to the "no editing until it's done" and then never finish anything, so I have no clear evidence of what can be improved through editing and revising.  I've shared first drafts of novels-in-progress, regrettably.  The short stories I've written have been minimally edited, often mainly for length.  Lots of roleplaying posts, all uneditable.  Aaallll my college papers--very faintly edited, if at all.  While I've had different versions of stories, those were generally rewritten from the ground up.  So I'm sunk in this habit of writing as close to word-perfect as I can get, from beginning to end, and feeling that what's on the page is immutable.  Which, clearly, is not the case--there is verifiable evidence that authors substantially edit their work, believe it or not--but it's what I've spent all my life doing.

This isn't really about calling myself a writer, or "being a writer", whatever that means.  I think Devouring Wolf touched on this. It's about a need to accomplish something, to have written and finished and met a standard of my own making.  To have that experience to lean upon, some grain of confidence.

Well.  Feeling extraordinarily done with all this moaning.  At this point I'd like to write down a series of Things to Do, but I really have to get some sleep, so that'll have to wait until tomorrow.  I'll think on it.  In the meantime, thanks again for humoring me.  I'm happy at least that some discussion came out of this.


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## Penpilot (Jan 13, 2017)

The only one that can say if you're a writer or not is you. IMHO, a lot of people put too much pressure on themselves to produce big numbers to prove that they're real writers. Or only use perfect ideas before they can write. I use to do this. And I don't think it's healthy.

Examine your life and determine what a manageable pace is for yourself and try to stick to it. If you love writing write. Write with no expectations. I know this is cliche, but do it for the sake of just doing it.

I love hockey. I play it because I love playing, not because I expect to be discovered and become a professional. Try that with your writing. Just play with it. Have fun.

If you want to get writing again, here's a something you can try. Think of it as a small mean-nothing challenge. Select a writing prompt. Say Boy meets Girl or any combination of something like that and write a story based on that. Now here are the rules.

1- You can only write for five minutes on this story per day, but you have to write something down, no matter how wacky or stupid it may seem. Set a timer and once time is up, you have to stop.

2 -No backspacing. Once something is typed out no turning back.

3 -Have fun with it. Just see where your typing leads you. Beg, borrow, and outright steal ideas and situations from wherever. Because... 

4 -No expectations because this isn't for publishing. This isn't for sharing. This is for you.


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## Gribba (Jan 13, 2017)

Sorry for the long rant... You guys have given me so many good replies and helpful once and inspiration from your experiences so I was hoping to do something useful with my experiences and crazy way of looking at life.
Maybe I missed the mark but hey... I tried... There is no stupid questions or answers, only questions and possible answers. 




Nimue said:


> I suppose it all boils down to Chester's question: why am I not writing?  Well.  *deep sigh*
> 
> Why am I not writing now?  The holidays took a lot out of me, I was sick for a week or so, and work was and is busier than usual. […]



This is allowed!
And I believe that our stories can only be better when we live our life. How is the reader to believe anything we write if we have not lived, experienced, felt the feelings that life has to offer. (some experience much in a short time and others take longer but it is all relevant to the story).  



Nimue said:


> But that's not really the question, is it.  Why don't I write?  It tends to follow the same pattern, with counterpoint variations.  Something derails me. […] The solution there would seem to be _don't stop writing, then,_ but a flake like me never manages that, and that missed day/week becomes another black mark, sign of one's failure, etc, etc.



This I understand and I think every person that ever wrote anything or works towards writing something, knows this feeling. But if your head is not in it, then it is not in it and that is ok too (it will come back because you are a writer, you cant help it).  

The guilt, it is so sneaky and unfair. Adding this black mark on this wonderful and hopeful thing, called writing. 

_(The word awesome is my mantra, you can replace it with the word you find best for you, while reading this)._
I have been there and this may sound crazy but when I get there, I tell it to go away and do, not so pleasant, stuff to itself, because I am the boss of how I feel and I am not letting some lame feeling take me down. I remind myself everyday, until I don't need to anymore, that I am awesome and I can do anything I want. Sometimes it takes a while and other times I need to step back from it and then rush back in with my head first. 
I know this is not as easy as it may sound, it requires you to say NO with force, to yourself, when those feelings turn up and it requires you to choose to be kind to yourself and positive despite those feelings. Those feelings and that voice, will never go away but it can be managed and told to shut up, when it is being a pain in the 'you know what'. 
I went through years with depression and anxiety, it took me many years to get out. During that time I had to teach myself to, NOT listen to that voice, that kept telling me, I was not good enough and I did not deserve anything good in my life, that voice had so many incredibly negative and unpleasant things to say, I took it all in and I wallowed in it, for a long time. 
Until I finally got it, if the glass is half full then you have just begun something, take it all in, learn, experience and take the things you can use, from it, and make it yours. If the glass is half empty, there is a new beginning right around the corner. And If the glass is only halfway through, then you have gotten this far and you have more to go, keep making it yours. It is how you choose to look at it.

So when a similar voice began showing up, after I begun writing again, I reminded myself not to listen to that silly voice as it has noting good to contribute in my life. I can use it to better describe something but not to live my life by nor when it comes to my writing. Saying NO, with force and not allowing it to be the foundation of how I feel. I am the boss of me and how I choose to feel, every day, every moment of the day, I get to choose and I choose AWESOME! All the time!



Nimue said:


> In specific...yes, prose is a sticking point for me.  [...]



I am dyslexic and I used to get so hung up on the red lines under the words, I would use so much of my time fixing spelling mistakes and be insecure about my writing, because I could not even write properly, why the hell was I even trying it… Regardless of what language I write in, Icelandic, Danish or English, those red lines, everywhere, mocking me!  
Every time I wrote a sentence I would go back and fix the words that were spelled wrong and I lost the flow of the story. I forgot the “brilliant” sentence that was suppose to come next. It made me often feel inadequate and I allow this black cloud hang over my writing, resulting in my head telling me, to not waste my time on writing anymore. I could not write anyway, so why bother...
It broke my heart to stop writing and made me feel frustrated with all the ideas in my head that were waiting to be written. 
So I began reminding myself, when I had the page in front of me, that now, I was going to write until I could no more. Either I ran out of stuff to write or my fingers hurt (or the kids came home and needed me), then and only then, I could go back and fix the spelling mistakes. It took me a few tries and slap on my fingers for going back to fix the spelling before I was allowed to but in the end I got there and now those red lines under the text are just what they are, red lines to look at later. Doing this did wonders for me, it made writing easier and more enjoyable. 

Prose is your hang up, find a way to loosen it from your head and return to it when you are done with the more important task, writing your story.


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## Miskatonic (Jan 13, 2017)

As far as inner critic and creative voice goes, I think we all have to walk the line between "my shit doesn't stink" and "maybe this person has a valid point".


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## FifthView (Jan 13, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> Isn't it better to write a thousand words and only keep half, than to write none at all because your editor is telling you you suck?



If your editor never tells you anything but, "You suck!" then, yeah.  The reaction might be to never put a word on the page again if you are entirely incapable of writing good prose.

If your editor sometimes tells you, "This sucks!" then sometimes it's right.  The sentence does suck.  And maybe it should be rewritten on the spot or sometimes you can come back to that passage later and write it later.  This might slow your output, but does that matter?

GRRM asked Stephen King: 

“You don’t ever have a day where you sit down there and it’s like constipation - you write a sentence and you hate the sentence and you check your email and you wonder if you had any talent after all and maybe you should have been a plumber? Don’t you have days like that?” (link, language warning at the very first as GRRM starts by saying F!)​
Stephen King had already said he tries to get 6 fairly clean pages a day.  So he answered, no.  But he did say that of course there are distractions sometimes, real life things needing to be done.

You'd already used GRRM as an example, heh....



> George RR Martin puts out a book every five- ten years, so he must not be a writer.



—sarcasm.

Maybe you meant that of course GRRM's a writer, but he's just not a very good one sometimes; he's not doing what he should be doing and cranking out a few hours' worth of words he'll mostly throw away.  And maybe that's correct, he's not always "being" a "good" writer even though on the whole he's done just fine.  

Reading comments about cranking out 1K+ words a day regardless of circumstance, getting those 30K+ words a month, with the suggestion that this describes doing it right (_if_ you want to be a writer).....Well, I think it's great advice if the heart of the advice is taken.  The "block" in writer's block is often far worse in those very opening moments.  I think this might be related to the way irrational fear and worry can keep us from doing something that, it so turns out, was not something to be feared.  But I do worry that the advice can come across as condemnation or confirmation of one's own inherent ineptitude as a writer.  

Maybe my own personal experience colors my view.  In my twenties, I'd pretty much stopped reading and writing fiction and focused on reading poetry and essays while working on a career in business (and extracurricular activities, lol.) I began to delve into poetry for my writing.  And no poet for long entertains the idea of making a living through poetry.  I've always turned to other avenues for my livelihood. For my life now, there's no great need to worry about earning a living writing fiction—although the older I get, the nearer to retirement I get, it's something that's beginning to loom as an impetus, heh.  So if I go a day or two or more without writing much, I don't feel the sting of failure as strongly as I might.  There's a bit of a sting.  But I'm not worried so much about whether I am or am not a writer; then again, I've long since been exhausted by various labels and trying to live up to them.


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## Chessie (Jan 13, 2017)

@Nimue, I'm diagnosing perfectionism as the root cause of your troubles. Now, the good news is that this is curable. But I'm going to go against the grain here and mention these last few points:

-if you want to write, then you need to knock off the perfectionism. Period.
-this can be done the same way you undo a habit, by consistent effort towards freeing your inner Nimue voice.
-only you can decide if writing is worthwhile to you or not. If it isn't, then screw this mess and don't torture yourself any longer. If it is, put the brakes down and devote yourself to the craft. I'm always here if you need me, either today, tomorrow, or next year. If you need someone to help you with this, come to me. I'm waiting. 

**In the famous words of Yoda the master: "Do. Or do not. There is no try."


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## Heliotrope (Jan 13, 2017)

FV... what I meant was that Nim posted a very specific checklist of what she believes makes a 'writer'. I was saying that by those standards, some very popular writers must not be writers then... because they certainly don't meet those standards. 

What I find interesting about this discussion is that there seems to be two viewpoints that "seem" similar, but are vastly different. 

1) I am, therefor I write. 

In which, a person believes themselves, deep down, to be a writer, even though they perhaps don't always produce work, or don't stick to a schedule, or don't have anything published. They know, in their heart that writing is how they express themselves even though they don't do it every day (or even every year). 

2) I write, therefor I am. 

In which a person does not believe themselves a writer unless they are achieving a specific goal/output. It is the writing that makes them a writer, not the other way around. 

I find the debate to be fascinating.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jan 13, 2017)

I agree with Chessie, if you want to be a productive, creative writer you need to accept that the first couple of drafts will always be, to an extent, crap.  That goes for all of us, its just the way writers work, we have to just dump stuff from our minds onto the page so we have something to work with.  Then begins the process of trying to make articulate, precise words make sense and line up with what we feel.  Basically putting wordless instinct and emotion into words: communication. Some people can do that a lot quicker than others, but the first few drafts are only for us, because they are clunky, inconsistent, imprecise = not effective communication.  That's just how we work.


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## Chessie (Jan 13, 2017)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> I agree with Chessie, *if you want to be a productive, creative writer you need to accept that the first couple of drafts will always be, to an extent, crap.*  That goes for all of us, its just the way writers work, we have to just dump stuff from our minds onto the page so we have something to work with.  Then begins the process of trying to make articulate, precise words make sense and line up with what we feel.  Basically putting wordless instinct and emotion into words: communication. Some people can do that a lot quicker than others, but the first few drafts are only for us, because they are clunky, inconsistent, imprecise = not effective communication.  That's just how we work.


Actually, that's not what I said at all! I...do not believe the first draft of anything needs to suck super hard if you're continually improving in skill. I write one draft, no rewrite. Do I fix mistakes? Yes. Do I clean things up to make the narrative flow more smoothly? Yes. But the finished product remains in the o.g. draft unless I do a complete redraft. That's just how I work though, to each their own. Yeah...that's not what I was saying at all. lol.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 13, 2017)

Chessie said:


> Actually, that's not what I said at all! I...do not believe the first draft of anything needs to suck super hard if you're continually improving in skill. I write one draft, no rewrite. Do I fix mistakes? Yes. Do I clean things up to make the narrative flow more smoothly? Yes. But the finished product remains in the o.g. draft unless I do a complete redraft. That's just how I work though, to each their own. Yeah...that's not what I was saying at all. lol.



Although for a good percentage of writers, it is true.


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## Chessie (Jan 13, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Although for a good percentage of writers, it is true.


How would you or anyone know that? From beginning writers to professionals, everyone is going to have different habits, and I suspect that it may be true for a certain demographic of writers vs others. So no, it isn't true as a generalism, and entirely unscientific.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Jan 13, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> ...
> 
> What I find interesting about this discussion is that there seems to be two viewpoints that "seem" similar, but are vastly different.
> 
> ...



I love this. Descartes would be proud.

Based on his quote, we could conjecture that he'd go with number 2) above. Action/perception gives reason for definition. There's a reason Descartes didn't say, "I am, therefore I think."


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jan 13, 2017)

Chessie said:


> Actually, that's not what I said at all! I...do not believe the first draft of anything needs to suck super hard if you're continually improving in skill. I write one draft, no rewrite. Do I fix mistakes? Yes. Do I clean things up to make the narrative flow more smoothly? Yes. But the finished product remains in the o.g. draft unless I do a complete redraft. That's just how I work though, to each their own. Yeah...that's not what I was saying at all. lol.



No I should have clarified, sorry.  I meant I agree with you that in this case it is partly about perfectionism, which is something that can get in the way of productive writing.  I should have specified that I was moving onto my own points.  Yeah I can see I phrased that badly now.


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## FifthView (Jan 13, 2017)

@Helio:

That is an interesting question.

GRRM might never complete another book.  He might not be writing today, for all I know.  But he will forever be known as a writer because he has completed books and stories already and many people have read those.  He's also made a lot of money from his writing.

I think that worrying about whether one fits the label Writer, for oneself or in the eyes of others, is different than worrying about finishing a novel, getting it published (or self-published), and having a stranger read it.

The latter seems to me to be a matter of practicality.  You just do it.  The novel's not going to finish itself.  Push through, whatever.  The former might be self-evident if you are accomplishing the latter; but if you haven't yet finished that novel and aren't doing anything whatsoever to advance that goal?  What good is the question of one's status as "writer" in that case?  I.e., why worry over it?  (Not saying anything of this describes Nimue; I'm being general here.)

Maybe different individuals have different concerns.  I'm not judging a person either way; I only suspect that self-satisfaction will depend on a personal goal and metrics fitting that goal....

And part of those metrics might be some sort of time limit, different for different people.

OTOH, is being known as a Writer more important than actually writing a novel?  This reminds me of those side-character introductions in movies:

(At a party.)

Barb:  Who's that?

Mary:  Peter.  He's all right.

Barb:  What's he do?

Mary:  He's a writer. 

Barb:  Oh?  What's he written?

Mary:  Nothing.

Barb (confused):  ?

Mary:  He said he's a writer, when I asked once.  He tells everyone he's a writer.  He's currently working at Pizza Hut.  Has a novel he's working on, he said, something with dragons.  Spent about four years on it, already.  Gonna be great.

Barb:  Oh.  (Silently thinks for a moment.)  He's hot.

Mary:  Especially when he's baking pizzas. 

Barb:  ?

Mary:  Yeah...he's all right.​
—but from this overheard conversation, we don't know Peter's entire life history, heh.  Mary might not be a reliable witness.


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## Heliotrope (Jan 13, 2017)

Michael K. Eidson said:


> I love this. Descartes would be proud.
> 
> Based on his quote, we could conjecture that he'd go with number 2) above. Action/perception gives reason for definition. There's a reason Descartes didn't say, "I am, therefore I think."



Descartes would also argue that the very fact that Nimue doubts her being a "writer" shows that she is a writer. If she really were not a writer then she would never be bothered to doubt it. Instead, she would continue on doing whatever non-writerly things she would do, doubting herself in those things instead.


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## oenanthe (Jan 13, 2017)

Chessie said:


> How would you or anyone know that? From beginning writers to professionals, everyone is going to have different habits, and I suspect that it may be true for a certain demographic of writers vs others. So no, it isn't true as a generalism, and entirely unscientific.



Well, you could ask, if you're really curious. I suspect DragonOfTheAerie is correct in believing that a good percent of writers do revisions.


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## Chessie (Jan 13, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> Descartes would also argue that the very fact that Nimue doubts her being a "writer" shows that she is a writer. If she really were not a writer then she would never be bothered to doubt it. Instead, she would continue on doing whatever non-writerly things she would do, doubting herself in those things instead.



I disagree. Writers write. Nimue's case aside. You can't say you're something and then not do it. So what I'm saying is, I lean towards "I want to be, therefore I do". If someone wants to be a writer, then they need to write. They can't say they are if they don't do. I think that's what Nimue is struggling with here, if I understand her well.


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## Chessie (Jan 13, 2017)

oenanthe said:


> Well, you could ask, if you're really curious. I suspect DragonOfTheAerie is correct in believing that a good percent of writers do revisions.



Revisions are one thing. Rewrites are another. It's also not a good idea to paint everyone with a broad stroke, as so often happens around here.


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## oenanthe (Jan 13, 2017)

Chessie said:


> Revisions are one thing. Rewrites are another.



What's the difference, if you were to define it?


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## Heliotrope (Jan 13, 2017)

Yes. And dancers dance. 

I never doubt my ability as a dancer because I know I'm not one. 

Do I doubt my ability as a writer? Of course. A few measily poems does not a professional writer make. But do I still consider myself a writer? Yes. Will I still continue to write (as I can) until I die? I hope so. Will I ever have anything published? Probably not. But I still consider myself a writer. (Though, to be fair, I would never introduce myself as such at a party like FV's example lol). 

But what do I want to do? Obviously write. That's why I'm here with all of you. 

Or else, are we saying that most of the people on this site are not writers?


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## Chessie (Jan 13, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> Yes. And dancers dance.
> 
> I never doubt my ability as a dancer because I know I'm not one.
> 
> ...



Perhaps it comes down to personal definition. When people ask what I do, I tell them I'm a writer, because I do this everyday for hours. If someone were to ask you what you do, you say that wouldn't be your response. Then you say that yes, you're a writer. So maybe it has more to do with our personal definition of the word. I have no idea. All I know is that Nimue is rather unsatisfied where she is because she yearns for more, but that's entirely up to her to figure out.

As for the rewrite/redraft question, a topic for another thread but the short of it is, imo, redraft is starting fresh without help from the original manuscript, vs rewrite is shifting parts around, writing new prose, deleting parts, etc.


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## Heliotrope (Jan 13, 2017)

Chessie said:


> Perhaps it comes down to personal definition. When people ask what I do, I tell them I'm a writer, because I do this everyday for hours. If someone were to ask you what you do, you say that wouldn't be your response. Then you say that yes, you're a writer. So maybe it has more to do with our personal definition of the word. I have no idea. All I know is that Nimue is rather unsatisfied where she is because she yearns for more, but that's entirely up to her to figure out.
> 
> As for the rewrite/redraft question, a topic for another thread but the short of it is, imo, redraft is starting fresh without help from the original manuscript, vs rewrite is shifting parts around, writing new prose, deleting parts, etc.



I think so. If someone asked what I 'did' I would usually respond with "teacher" because that is my profession. But then does that not make me a mother? Because that wasn't my response at a party? I don't think so. I'm also a mother, a writer, a cyclist, a triathlete, an adventure racer, a Search and Rescue Volunteer... 

Definitely not a dancer. Or a sumo wrestler. lol.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Jan 13, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> Descartes would also argue that the very fact that Nimue doubts her being a "writer" shows that she is a writer. If she really were not a writer then she would never be bothered to doubt it. Instead, she would continue on doing whatever non-writerly things she would do, doubting herself in those things instead.



Why do I find this so hot? 

I get it. No one would have doubts about being something they know they aren't. The doubt comes from something deep in the person's soul, not a superficial desire. And because it comes from deep in the soul, it will drive the person to action, despite the doubts.

Until the action occurs and the person writes, they are not a writer. They're an aspiring writer. But Nimue has written, so that stage is already passed.


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## Heliotrope (Jan 13, 2017)

Michael K. Eidson said:


> Why do I find this so hot?
> 
> .



Ha! Because philosophy is sexy. Obviously.


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## Black Dragon (Jan 14, 2017)

Hey Everyone,

We had to delete a post from this thread that took a shot at a current figure in US politics.  Please, refrain from making political comments.  Past experience shows that it leads to endless grief and hurt feelings.  We prefer to focus on our purpose as a community, which is fantasy writing.

Thanks.


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## Christopher Michael (Jan 14, 2017)

This has probably been said in more words than I'm going to say it, because I'm blunt. Do you write? Do you actively put words on paper? I don't care if you write 20 words a year or 20 words a minute, are words coming out of your head and showing up on the page?
You
Are
A
Writer!
That's it. Case closed. Nothing else to say. If you write, any at all, *you are a writer*.


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## Penpilot (Jan 14, 2017)

I was just thinking, which can be a dangerous thing.  But maybe there's a little too much emphasis on a label.

For the sake of argument, lets say there's  a person, they write maybe once every two months, but over the course of 10 years they finish a novel. And that novel gets sold and published. Is this person a writer? They have written, but are they a writer?

What's the difference between them and someone who does the same thing but doesn't manage to get published?

What's the difference between these two people and someone who writes everyday but is never published and never tries?

Where's the dividing line?

For me, I don't think the label matters. Call me a writer, a aspiring writer, a hack, a wanna-be, whatever. it doesn't change what I do, how I do it, and how often. IMHO just do what you like to do as much as you like to do it and leave the labels in the label gun.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jan 15, 2017)

Stumbled on this, although it may not apply to the context of this thread.

"This is what I mean when I call myself a writer... I construct sentences."

--Don DeLillo


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## Christopher Michael (Jan 15, 2017)

You're a writer as long as you put words, any words, on the page.
That's the only label that matters. The moment you're PUBLISHED, whether it be self pub, indie, or Big 6, you're an author.


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## Heliotrope (Jan 15, 2017)

^^^ Boo yeah!


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## neodoering (Jan 25, 2017)

I manage 1000 words a day, several times a week, and produce about one novel a year, and some short stories.  I attend my writers' critique group every month and correspond with several writers from this group on an ongoing basis.  I read fantasy novels and anthologies more or less continuously, taking breaks to read literature and nonfiction.  I consider myself a writer, and I've had some stories published in the magazines, so I'm an author, too.  I am not "successful" in any real sense, earning about $100 a year from my writing, and in fact, to copyright my works costs about $90 a year, and licensing images for covers costs another $30 a year.  So I'm actually losing money.  There are writers in speculative fiction who write a million words a year, and I can't touch that.  I have to pace myself around my ambitions and yearly goals, and be content with that.  

Everyone has to work within the limitations of their circumstances, and do the best they can.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 26, 2017)

This might be a little late, but I'm posting it anyway. Whose benchmark are you going to use to determine if you are writing "enough" to be considered a writer?...is what I think when I hear questions like this. What is the line between Writer and Not A Writer? 

I just finished an 110,000 word first draft in 4 months. Seems to me like a rather fast first draft. That makes me a writer, no? But what about the people who write even more than me? What about the people who write less? Are they all Not Writers? I didn't write ANY books for like 2 years before that. I had writers block for a looooong time. Wait, does that mean I'm not a writer? 

The fact that this concerns you, that you made a topic about it, that you care to ask, means you're a writer, because it seems that you WANT to identify yourself as a writer. If you were just like "Eh. I don't think I'm a writer," fine, don't call yourself a writer. But since you're pursuing the identity of writer, it's different. If you want to be a writer and you write words, you're a writer.


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## skip.knox (Jan 26, 2017)

And surely it depends on what you write. A writer of technical documents, for example, is not what most people would picture if you said "I'm a writer." I've written lots of history, but that only means I'm a historian, not a writer.

At the same time, if you write twenty novels and never show them to anyone, I hesitate to call you a writer. You are like the musician who never performs. Writing is about communicating, not merely about putting pen to paper.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 26, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> And surely it depends on what you write. A writer of technical documents, for example, is not what most people would picture if you said "I'm a writer." I've written lots of history, but that only means I'm a historian, not a writer.
> 
> At the same time, if you write twenty novels and never show them to anyone, I hesitate to call you a writer. You are like the musician who never performs. Writing is about communicating, not merely about putting pen to paper.



^Would disagree about the part of not being a writer if you don't show anyone. Many poets didn't get much out out there until after they were dead (Emily Dickinson comes to mind) and wrote most of their work apparently for themselves, but I don't think it makes them not poets. 

Sometimes I write things to explore or gain understanding of an idea for myself, or crystallize a thought I have so that I can view it more clearly. That seems to me like I'm communicating with myself. Often, I write to a hypothetical audience as well. I don't think it's possible to write without communicating, but an actual other person need not be involved. I think it's okay to write for yourself. Its communication between different parts of yourself that you're trying to reconcile. Or communication to an audience you don't know if you will have the chance or the bravery to reveal your thoughts to.  

If you're religious, you might could say that you always have an audience--God.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jan 26, 2017)

^Although the designation of writer may not have much meaning/relevance to the outside world if you don't show anyone. So the name, while not inaccurate in my opinion, may not be useful.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Jan 26, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> And surely it depends on what you write. A writer of technical documents, for example, is not what most people would picture if you said "I'm a writer." I've written lots of history, but that only means I'm a historian, not a writer.
> 
> At the same time, if you write twenty novels and never show them to anyone, I hesitate to call you a writer. You are like the musician who never performs. Writing is about communicating, not merely about putting pen to paper.



I'm disappointed by this outlook. Writing polished material that others will read should be enough to qualify one as a writer, whether the material is fiction or non-fiction, technical or literary or somewhere in between. A lot of work can go into any written-word project done for pay. Some people write technical documents for a living, where the focus of their job is to _write_. And you want to tell them they aren't writers?


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## skip.knox (Jan 27, 2017)

I have no problem with it at all. I will cite numerous journalists who quit their magazine or newspaper job because they "wanted to be a writer." The word has connotations not captured by the denotation.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Jan 27, 2017)

Is it length of the written material that qualifies someone as a writer? Are authors of short stories not considered writers? I've seen technical documents that rival the size of a LOTR novel. Must you be writing fiction to be considered a writer? Are authors of autobiographies not writers? If it's only about communicating, a honey-do list or a suicide note could make someone a writer. Were those people who left magazine and journalism jobs actually writing as part of their jobs, and were they communicating? Maybe they were quitting their jobs to become novelists, but a novelist is not the only type of writer.

writÂ·er
/ˈrīdər/
noun
noun: writer; plural noun: writers


a person who has written a particular text.
_"the writer of the letter"_

a person who writes books, stories, or articles as a job or regular occupation.
_"the distinguished travel writer Freya Stark"_
_synonyms:	author, wordsmith, man/woman of letters, penman; novelist, essayist, biographer; journalist, columnist, correspondent; scriptwriter, playwright, dramatist, dramaturge, tragedian; poet; informalscribbler, scribe, hack
        "my favorite American writer"_
a person who writes in a specified way.
_"Dickens was a prolific writer"_


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## skip.knox (Jan 27, 2017)

I don't understand the point of the disagreement, so I'll bow out of this one. I'm pretty sure the OP meant "writer" in the sense of one who writes books, stories or articles as a regular occupation (or an eventual occupation).


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## Michael K. Eidson (Jan 29, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> I don't understand the point of the disagreement, so I'll bow out of this one. I'm pretty sure the OP meant "writer" in the sense of one who writes books, stories or articles as a regular occupation (or an eventual occupation).



The point of my disagreement with what you said earlier was that, to paraphrase, technical writers are not writers. I'd not take exception to your saying they aren't novelists, but that's not what you said. The OP did not say "novelist" (or journalist or biographer or short story writer) either, so we can't assume that's what the OP is about. The term used was "writer," and "writer" has a much broader meaning than "novelist" or "journalist" or "biographer" or "short story writer." Maybe that's where the confusion is for the OP, in that "writer" is such a broad term. If the OP had used a more precise term for the type of writer intended, the discussion would have gone much differently than it has.


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## skip.knox (Jan 29, 2017)

I just wanted to say this to Nimue, who kicked off this thread. I just read your post from the 12th. It is lucid and well written. You may be stuck writing your novel, but you do write well. Have faith in you--everyone else does!


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## Annoyingkid (Feb 12, 2017)

I think if Chris Chan can complete a series, what excuse do I have? That keeps me going.


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## Eyeofdreeg (Feb 13, 2017)

You need to stop being so hard on yourself mate, it won't do you any good in the long run. Take a breath, relax and center yourself. You'll be right, just remember why you write and how much you love doing what you do.


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