# Sugar Shortage



## caters (Sep 19, 2016)

Okay, it isn't really a shortage but a complete absence. The beets that Robin and Lisa grow are sweet but they grow them for use as a vegetable, not for making sugar.

But I was thinking that with a civilization starting up, people will want pies and other desserts and while with Alma alone, they could find a way around not having sugar and make it just as good, with 105 people total(including Robin, Lisa, Alma, and the twins), they really will need sugar. They could use tree sap but that would be winter only and not all tree sap is usable for sugar(Birch and Maple are the only 2 I know of and maple is pretty picky as to when sap comes out).

Fruit juice would be impossible to make sugar from because it is so well dissolved that it will caramelize and burn before it separates.

So that leaves 2 things I know of that might or might not work as an all year long supply of sugar.

1) Form a team of explorers to find a special plant they can grind up into sugar

or

2) Use some of the beets to make sugar

Of course there might be a different solution that I have never thought of.

So do you have any suggestions as to how they should go about making an all year long supply of sugar?


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## Ireth (Sep 19, 2016)

Using the beets to make sugar seems like the obvious choice. There's also the option of honey.


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## Saigonnus (Sep 19, 2016)

Any fruit can be used... mash it up and add water. Cook it until the sugar is in the water, then strain the solid matter out of it using cheesecloth. Allow the waters to evaporate and all that is left is the sugars, which you can scrape off the container.


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## SaltyDog (Sep 19, 2016)

I agree with both Saigonnus and Ireth.  Maybe they could find or grow something like a sugar cane, then go on to make sugar with the plant.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Sep 19, 2016)

Go with the beets and have them breed the sweetest beets to make them more sweet.


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## valiant12 (Sep 20, 2016)

> But I was thinking that with a civilization starting up, people will want pies and other desserts and while with Alma alone, they could find a way around not having sugar and make it just as good, with 105 people total(including Robin, Lisa, Alma, and the twins), they really will need sugar.



They want or they need ? Personally i don't like sugar and If I'm not mistaking humans don't need sugar to survive. 
And you need another key ingredients for tasty desserts. For example you will need cocoa for chocolate, apples for apple pies ,etc.


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## Richard P Titus (Sep 20, 2016)

As this is a forum for fantasy writing, why not devise a fantastic origin of sugar?

Can someone discover a naturally-occurring mineral that is essentially an edible sugar?

Could a mysterious, weeping statue cry sweet tears at different phases of the moon?

Maybe a friendly rodent has sheddable ears that are comprised chiefly of sugar which they will gladly donate to whomever sings to them.

If you're writing fantasy, why think in terms of what we call "orthodox, traditional science."  The wonderful attribute of fantasy is the writer never has to "think inside the box."  You have no limits.

Have fun.


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## CupofJoe (Sep 20, 2016)

Richard P Titus said:


> As this is a forum for fantasy writing, why not devise a fantastic origin of sugar?
> 
> Can someone discover a naturally-occurring mineral that is essentially an edible sugar?



Aren't there Treacle Mines under Anhk-Morpork on the Discworld? [Something to do with the Fifth Elephant]

And the famous [if probably not real] Treacle and Jam Butty Mines of Knotty Ash, Liverpool...


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## TheCatholicCrow (Sep 20, 2016)

valiant12 said:


> They want or they need ?


I was thinking the same. Ever heard of the Paleo/Primal lifestyle? 

Even in baked goods sugar isn't always necessary. Baked goods themselves aren't really necessary but if you're going with a pan-European based civilization I can see where that might play central role in their eating habits. Still, there's knockebrod, hardtack, all kinds of flat breads, fermented breads and tons of others that don't require cane sugar. 

As for pies ... you should be able to find a bunch of medieval recipes online (I see them pop up in my feed on Pinterest from some of the history boards I follow). They would definitely be more of a delicacy than they are today. We can scarf them down now because we outsource farming & agriculture but having grown my own fruit, I can tell you it takes all summer for a single boysenberry bush to produce enough fruit for two large pies. Well, we do pick some off and eat them along the way but not enough to really make a dent. Eating it fresh (or if they happen to magically grow in massive quantities w giant orchards and groves) canning ... though I would personally lean towards glass jars it might not make sense for your timeline (you can look into other materials) ... either way, pies would be ultra luxurious and would probably be saved for special occasions like weddings or certain feast days. Probably not a weekly thing.  

Honey is an option. It would also allow you to bring in mead ... corn might be another option (some varieties are sweeter than others and if they didn't have cane sugar it might be sweet enough to be used in its place - maybe cutting in some finely ground corn flour or coconut flour into the wheat/rye flour [<- there was no distinction between the two until fairly recently] ... )

Otherwise I would agree that fruit is an excellent option. 

Syrup (such as maple) might work too.

Like everything, it comes down to worldbuilding.


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## valiant12 (Sep 21, 2016)

> Maybe a friendly rodent has sheddable ears that are comprised chiefly of sugar which they will gladly donate to whomever sings to them.


This could work in a video game. " Kill some sugar rats and bring me 10 sugar rat ears " sound better than most low level quests.
In a novel it would only strain the suspension of disbelief.


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## caters (Sep 23, 2016)

valiant12 said:


> They want or they need ? Personally i don't like sugar and If I'm not mistaking humans don't need sugar to survive.
> And you need another key ingredients for tasty desserts. For example you will need cocoa for chocolate, apples for apple pies ,etc.



They already have the fruits for fruit pies. Cocoa is somewhere on the planet Kepler Bb, in particular in one of the unexplored regions to the east of the underground civilization. Meat for meat pies is easily found in all directions from the civilization. Vegetables for veggie pies they already have. Plus they already have grains for producing flours for cereal and several other things besides.

As for whether they want or need sugar, it truly is a need. Sugar free pie just isn't worth it to them. Plus they have in their genome, genes that inhibit the physiological processes involved in diabetes.



Saigonnus said:


> Any fruit can be used... mash it up and add water. Cook it until the sugar is in the water, then strain the solid matter out of it using cheesecloth. Allow the waters to evaporate and all that is left is the sugars, which you can scrape off the container.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I don't see how that can happen without the sugar caramelizing. Even on low heat, time will still make sugar caramelize.

Sure, separating salt from water by evaporation works but that is because salt truly has a melting point and boiling point but both of these are at super high temperatures, much higher than evaporation temperatures.

Sugar's melting point however is somewhere around 300 and caramelization starts at 325 I do believe(Fahrenheit). Water might very well get to these temperatures during evaporative distillation and even if it doesn't, it still might get the sugar to be that hot due to the majority of what is in there being water. 



TheCatholicCrow said:


> I was thinking the same. Ever heard of the Paleo/Primal lifestyle?
> 
> Even in baked goods sugar isn't always necessary. Baked goods themselves aren't really necessary but if you're going with a pan-European based civilization I can see where that might play central role in their eating habits. Still, there's knockebrod, hardtack, all kinds of flat breads, fermented breads and tons of others that don't require cane sugar.
> 
> ...



I am not sure how cutting corn flour into wheat flour will sweeten anything. I mean, there is much less sugar in corn flour than fresh sweet corn.

Honey might work but then I would be worried about bee stings in high amounts. Sure they might be allergy resistant but I can see quite a few people dying of bee sting allergies this way. Plus how would they find a hive to get honey from? Follow a bear at their own risk? Follow a bee from flower to flower? There is already enough risk of death with illness(particularly viruses) and potential starvation as is.

Syrup from tree sap would work but only in the winter.


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## Russ (Sep 23, 2016)

caters said:


> Honey might work but then I would be worried about bee stings in high amounts. Sure they might be allergy resistant but I can see quite a few people dying of bee sting allergies this way. Plus how would they find a hive to get honey from? Follow a bear at their own risk? Follow a bee from flower to flower? There is already enough risk of death with illness(particularly viruses) and potential starvation as is.



You're kidding about the following the bee or the bear right?

Humans have been harvesting bees since earliest known times.  I don't recall reading about any mass deaths arising from that...


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## caters (Sep 23, 2016)

But how would they find it in the first place? It can be hard to find a wild beehive. And I don't necessarily mean mass death from allergies. I mean, with 105 people total, even just a few dying is quite significant. A few dying, even in a low population isn't a mass death unless the population is super duper low(lower than 50).

But death not being a mass death doesn't mean it isn't significant, especially in a very early civilization where it is mostly family and friends.


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## Saigonnus (Sep 23, 2016)

caters said:


> I don't see how that can happen without the sugar caramelizing. Even on low heat, time will still make sugar caramelize.
> 
> Sure, separating salt from water by evaporation works but that is because salt truly has a melting point and boiling point but both of these are at super high temperatures, much higher than evaporation temperatures.
> 
> Sugar's melting point however is somewhere around 300 and caramelization starts at 325 I do believe(Fahrenheit). Water might very well get to these temperatures during evaporative distillation and even if it doesn't, it still might get the sugar to be that hot due to the majority of what is in there being water.



From what I gathered from the article, you allow the water to evaporate naturally, not continue cooking until it caramelizes, perhaps under a heat lamp or something similar. 

How to Extract Fructose From Plants | eHow

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## CupofJoe (Sep 24, 2016)

caters said:


> But how would they find it in the first place? It can be hard to find a wild beehive.


You follow the bees. It is a skill that can take a little learning but it would have great rewards.


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## Butterfly (Sep 24, 2016)

caters said:


> Honey might work but then I would be worried about bee stings in high amounts. Sure they might be allergy resistant but I can see quite a few people dying of bee sting allergies this way. Plus how would they find a hive to get honey from? Follow a bear at their own risk? Follow a bee from flower to flower? There is already enough risk of death with illness(particularly viruses) and potential starvation as is.
> 
> Syrup from tree sap would work but only in the winter.



Around about 5% of people are severely allergic to bee stings. Typically you need to be stung 3 times before you develop an allergic reaction. Deaths from bee stings are quite rare, with or without medical intervention. It is estimated that someone would have to be stung 1,500 times to die from a bee venom. Meaning of your 150 people, 7 would be allergic. So you only need to keep those few who show allergic symptoms away from the bees. The rest can harvest the honey without being killed. 

Also, the bee venom is able to kill off bacteria in the blood. the burning sensation you get is apparently caused by a chemical that tricks bacteria cells into thinking they are on fire, and they react as if they are they explode. The propolis can be used to treat throat infections, (but turns your teeth brown). Honey is a natural antiseptic, inside and outside of the body, basically it absorbs the water from bacteria, drying it up and killing it. It can be used on wounds to fight infection, on burns to aid healing and often without leaving scarring. 

Honey is also the only food that has everything in it to support life, including sugars and enzymes.

And you can also make mead from it, and have a great party.

So if there is honey in your world, it can benefit your population in other ways, not just for something sweet.


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## Ragnar (Sep 24, 2016)

Richard P Titus said:


> As this is a forum for fantasy writing, why not devise a fantastic origin of sugar?
> 
> Can someone discover a naturally-occurring mineral that is essentially an edible sugar?
> 
> ...



 This is a good idea! 

 But, as SaltyDog said, sugar cane is the easiest means of getting sugar. Sugar cane grows wild in the humid, near tropical conditions of the American South, South-East. It grows naturally near water and can be used in many survival type situations. Cane breaks are, I believe, clumps of sugar cane (and other types of 'cane' as well) that are so thick that they create great blinds to ambush prey. It all would make for a good story.


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## Efigenia (Sep 29, 2016)

Do you need them to have sugar or sweetener?  Two different things.  Keep in mind processing costs.  Honey is cheap from that perspective - you can use it right out of the hive.  Most everything else has to be crushed or otherwise processed and boiled down.

Sap, e.g. agave or maple.
Boiled cider, grape molasses - ie sweetener boiled down from fruit
Napoleon looked into making sugar from chestnuts, although in the end he went with beets...
Malt extract (i.e. maltose) from malted grain
Corn syrup (if they have the tech)
An "artifical" sweetener - herb like stevia
Fruit/dried fruit like dates, raisins - a very traditional way to sweeten things


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