# Training of Unusual "Cavalry" Mounts



## Mr. Steve (Nov 25, 2013)

Horses are great mounts, reliable and versatile, but what about other, more unusual animals?  I know that, in the real world, warriors have also ridden into battle mounted on camels and elephants.  Obviously, since this is fantasy, we can stretch what is possible , but one of the things I pride myself on my writing is doing my homework and not being TOO fantastical.

The piece I am working on is your standard Middle-Ages set fare, in a world both like and unlike our own.  I'm admittedly short on the "fantasy" elements to the extent that I don't have mythological creatures or magic in the traditional sense - anything that could be construed as magical could be chalked up to simply masterful materials forging techniques that have been lost to time and other such mundane causes, but there is still that hint that maybe something a little "extra" is going on.

With that in mind, that there is no explicit magic, what is the feasibility of using bears as war mounts?  Compared to horses, how would they perform in battle?  I would imagine a bear would be somewhat more aggressive and more willing to aid its rider directly and would probably be able to take more punishment then a horse, although a bear would probably be slower.  Would the reduced speed make a bear an ineffective mount in a fight?  Is it utterly impossible to train a bear to take a mount at all?


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## FatCat (Nov 25, 2013)

Animals can be trained to do what you want them to do, generally. The question you have to ask yourself is why you want bear mounts. Is it to be unique? There are many other ways of doing this, not just swapping one animal for another. I've always imagined fantasy writing akin to lying, if you can lie well enough for people to believe what you're saying, then you're on the right path. In this instance, training bear-mounts from cubs is an ingestible idea.


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## buyjupiter (Nov 25, 2013)

All I can think of are the first poor, drunk, Russians who tried this. I don't know why they'd have to be drunk, or Russian, but it just seems like that would be who would try that. I imagine training the bears did not go well, at least for the first few generations. And there were probably a lot of funerals. For the humans.

Bears are remarkably intelligent, and food motivated. At least in my experiences in dealing with them while camping. We tied our food up in the trees in plastic bags high enough up that a bear would have to struggle to get at it. None of the food packages were open, and it was covered by a plastic knapsack that shut completely. There really shouldn't have been any smell left. But that momma bear went up the tree, grabbed our food, dragged it down, and ate everything. Even some of the cardboard packaging. We tried to get her to go away, but she wouldn't listen. She knew what she wanted and it was our food.

Bears can move at a pretty fast clip, all things considered. They won't cover long distances at a fast pace like a horse would, but over the short distances of a battlefield? I think they'd work out just fine.

I think my main concern would be in the amount of control you'd be able to have over the bear. If a bear decided it wanted to go off in a different direction, you might find your character out of the battlefield instead of in it. Though, that can create its own set(s) of conflict(s).


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## Zero Angel (Nov 25, 2013)

If you want to use them as a mount in battle, I'd say they really need to be domesticated. It can't just be a couple of generations of training.

Bears are probably most likely to disregard their rider and start fighting if confronted with a threat. Bears are very intelligent and I've seen trainers/animal activists claim that they are very friendly as well. 

Even if domesticated, they then need to be trained for battle. It would be more likely to be able to train them to fight alongside of you than as a mount in my opinion, especially since they would be ready to rear up on their hind legs to start duking it out.


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## Mr. Steve (Nov 25, 2013)

It's not just to be unique, because the use of conventional horse mounts remains the most common.  The land where my work takes place is one that has essentially been beset on all sides by enemies for roughly a thousand years, so I would believe that, in order to make up for the fact they are perpetually surrounded and outnumbered, the warriors in this land would have to get creative.  They are a hard people, and many of them draw their ancestry from a nomadic nation that survived, and indeed thrived, and became an aggressive force in their own right.

The bear riders would essentially be elite "shock cavalry", going into battle on particularly tough, aggressive, and fearsome mounts.  I certainly thank you for your input regarding training them from cubs; I would imagine that not all bears, even when trained from cubs, would be amenable to being ridden, and not everyone would have the nerves to ride one, therefore setting these bear riders apart from the rest.  I was just trying to see if it was even theoretically possible.


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## GeekDavid (Nov 25, 2013)

Horses are herd animals, and used to doing what the herd leader tells them to do. This makes them exceptionally trainable as mounts.

Bears are solitary animals, and used to doing whatever the heck they want to do, without asking the group leader for permission. This seems to make them nearly impossible to train as mounts.

See also, for example, the difference between training a dog and training a cat.


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## skip.knox (Nov 25, 2013)

You might consider breeding. That is, for centuries specialists--maybe even mages--bred bears especially to be ridden. Maybe they used some magic in the breeding as well. Since you're quasi-medieval anyway, mixing animals into a new animal was a great favorite, so maybe they somehow bred horses and bears together.

That way, you could introduce whatever qualities you liked. You could keep wild bears bear-y but still have your war-bears. For any other animals, rinse and repeat.


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## Zero Angel (Nov 25, 2013)

If you like, you could just incorporate an extant species of a common ancestor to both bears and a more trainable species. I'd go with bear-dogs.


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## Saigonnus (Nov 25, 2013)

Mr. Steve said:


> The bear riders would essentially be elite "shock cavalry", going into battle on particularly tough, aggressive, and fearsome mounts.  I certainly thank you for your input regarding training them from cubs; I would imagine that not all bears, even when trained from cubs, would be amenable to being ridden, and not everyone would have the nerves to ride one, therefore setting these bear riders apart from the rest.  I was just trying to see if it was even theoretically possible.



One can use trained bears in combat without resorting to actually RIDING them; which actually would probably serve to limit their combat abilities. How could a bear go to it's hind legs to face a man on horseback if he has his rider on his back. Even if you could manufacture a saddle so the rider could stay on his back, you've suddenly limited the rider instead of the bear whenever the bear stands up. 

I would say that perhaps instead of using them for mounts, you give them armor like you would a horse and have them a sidekick the soldiers; who would be elite and trained to fight as a team with the bear.


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## Saigonnus (Nov 25, 2013)

skip.knox said:


> You might consider breeding. That is, for centuries specialists--maybe even mages--bred bears especially to be ridden. Maybe they used some magic in the breeding as well. Since you're quasi-medieval anyway, mixing animals into a new animal was a great favorite, so maybe they somehow bred horses and bears together.
> 
> That way, you could introduce whatever qualities you liked. You could keep wild bears bear-y but still have your war-bears. For any other animals, rinse and repeat.



You could also consider a magical form of training that utilizes some semi-permanent token (like an earring or brand) to make them more apt to play well with others and to obey orders better.


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## Malik (Nov 25, 2013)

GeekDavid said:


> Horses are herd animals, and used to doing what the herd leader tells them to do. This makes them exceptionally trainable as mounts.
> 
> Bears are solitary animals, and used to doing whatever the heck they want to do, without asking the group leader for permission. This seems to make them nearly impossible to train as mounts.
> 
> See also, for example, the difference between training a dog and training a cat.



Exactly this. If bears were usable as cavalry animals we'd have domesticated them for combat use. 

I have a scene where a handful of Faerie heavy shock cavalry come in on bears, but I'd already shown them as being animal-empathetic. Even so, only very few of the most insane Faerie choose bears as mounts. Also, they're not going to use them the way that we use horses. Bears are not herd animals; they don't do formations and they don't take orders well. In alignment parlance, they are true neutral, whereas horses are lawful neutral. Horses understand that their survival depends on doing what they're told. Bears would never get this, unless they're sentient, in which case they'd have some sort of society. That, by the way, would be awesome. 

The bear and rider are one being, out for themselves, not part of a larger unit or formation or even greater plan. The Faerie turn a few guys loose riding bears in the middle of a fight mostly because the fastest way to break an enemy's plan into little pieces is to hit him with something he never planned for. Even one crazy ******* riding a bear into a melee would suffice for this. The "they've got a cave troll" approach.

Or, hell, use magic and/or copious amounts of handwavium and have fun with your armies of bear-riders. Because, awesome.


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## GeekDavid (Nov 25, 2013)

If you want some sort of ferocious beast for your mount, use something that's used to traveling and working in groups. Wolves and lions spring to mind (though wolves have been used before).

Or, as Malik says, just use handwavium.


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## Ireth (Nov 25, 2013)

The Fae would be an excellent choice if you want non-standard mounts or battle-beasts that are also sentient. Pooka can turn into any sort of animal they wish, so having a bunch of them turn into bears at once would be awesome. They could also be wolves or cougars, or any other sort of dangerous beast. I plan on doing that in one of my Fae novels which involves a huge battle.


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## buyjupiter (Nov 25, 2013)

> Or, hell, use magic and/or copious amounts of handwavium and have fun with your armies of bear-riders. Because, awesome.



Handwavium: the first element on the magical periodic table of the elements?


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## GeekDavid (Nov 25, 2013)

buyjupiter said:


> Handwavium: the first element on the magical periodic table of the elements?



The way some authors throw it around, it must be more common than hydrogen.


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## Ireth (Nov 25, 2013)

What about Narrativium?


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## GeekDavid (Nov 25, 2013)

Ireth said:


> What about Narrativium?



Not nearly as common, given some of the dreck I've read -- both from indy published authors and traditionally published ones.


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## Malik (Nov 25, 2013)

Just to get the creative juices flowing . . . and to illustrate why I'm never invited to speak at fantasy conventions . . .




















Saddle up.


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## Quillstine (Nov 25, 2013)

Bears as mounts, as far as domesticating goes, I don’t find an issue. If you have a committed group of trainers why can’t you train them? Might take time but I am sure it can be done.
For me the issue is more the size and movement. Bears are not really that gigantic on average, when walking on all fours they not big enough to use as a convincing mount. Which means you need to make them larger in your story to be impressive and mean looking.
Also when they walk, their back looks like it moves a lot, so the whole strapping a saddle thing might be difficult. I am sure you can find ways around this though.
I love seeing different animals used as mounts/pets etc… So I say go for it!
Or the Shark Horse above.....cause that is epic....


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## Ireth (Nov 25, 2013)

That last one actually makes sense. Gryphon! 

Edit: That was addressed to Malik. I got ninja'd. ^^


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## GeekDavid (Nov 25, 2013)

Malik, my boy, you clearly have too much time on your hands.


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## GeekDavid (Nov 25, 2013)

Quillstine said:


> Bears as mounts, as far as domesticating goes, I don’t find an issue. If you have a committed group of trainers why can’t you train them? Might take time but I am sure it can be done.



All you need are large quantities of handwavium.


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## buyjupiter (Nov 25, 2013)

GeekDavid said:


> The way some authors throw it around, it must be more common than hydrogen.



Hey, I resemble that remark!

But seriously, I've read more than my fair share of fantasy/SF that went waaaay beyond what was needed for reader comprehension in developing magic systems, world building, etc. I tend to go a bit far the other way, maybe, but it fits with a leaner style in general.


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## Ireth (Nov 25, 2013)

GeekDavid said:


> All you need are large quantities of handwavium.



Careful, I hear that stuff is pretty 'splodey.


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## buyjupiter (Nov 25, 2013)

Ireth said:


> What about Narrativium?



Third most common element, right after characterium.


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## GeekDavid (Nov 25, 2013)

buyjupiter said:


> Hey, I resemble that remark!
> 
> But seriously, I've read more than my fair share of fantasy/SF that went waaaay beyond what was needed for reader comprehension in developing magic systems, world building, etc. I tend to go a bit far the other way, maybe, but it fits with a leaner style in general.



And with those works that go well beyond what is needed for reader comprehension, you usually get these big honking infodumps as well. Complete eye-glaze moments.


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## Svrtnsse (Nov 25, 2013)

I'd like to have elk/moose riders, but I'll need to tweak the animal a little first. Attempts have been made to domesticate elks for military use, but they turned out to be unsuitable for some reason. I believe it was due to having too weak backs, but may be due to other reasons too.
Either way, some large, long legged, hoofed animal with big antlers that stride to the forest carrying a scout/messenger on its back.


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## skip.knox (Nov 25, 2013)

I rather like the notion that certain fantastical creatures are only ridden by certain races. We have orcs riding wargs, of course. Something along those lines.  Only dwarves have bred bear-chargers. Only elves can ride gryphons (only elves are dumb enough). And so on. I am totally stealing this from myself.

Love those pics, Malik!


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## Mr. Steve (Nov 25, 2013)

Thank you all for your input!  I think I'm going to be adopting some of these ideas.  I admit the "bear-riding" thing came to me somewhat suddenly and impulsively, and I wanted to see what others thought about it.  I didn't really consider the whole "trained bears fighting alongside their handlers" angle, and now that I think about it, that will probably work so much better than what I was thinking.


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## Zero Angel (Nov 25, 2013)

Svrtnsse said:


> I'd like to have elk/moose riders, but I'll need to tweak the animal a little first. Attempts have been made to domesticate elks for military use, but they turned out to be unsuitable for some reason. I believe it was due to having too weak backs, but may be due to other reasons too.
> Either way, some large, long legged, hoofed animal with big antlers that stride to the forest carrying a scout/messenger on its back.


There's that famous picture of Teddy Roosevelt riding a moose (although there's the possibility that it was dead, in which case, ugh). 



skip.knox said:


> I rather like the notion that certain fantastical creatures are only ridden by certain races. We have orcs riding wargs, of course. Something along those lines.  Only dwarves have bred bear-chargers. Only elves can ride gryphons (only elves are dumb enough). And so on. I am totally stealing this from myself.
> 
> Love those pics, Malik!


I'm always a fan as well. My dwarves ride rulnira (a mantis-like creature) and landsharks regularly; elves have unicorns, pegasi, gryphons, hippogryphs, shay'talahs (a cheetah-like creature); aviadins use dinosaurs; and then there's tons more. I may have gone a bit overkill in fact, but oh well, I like that sort of stuff


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## Mr. Steve (Nov 26, 2013)

You guys helped me quite a bit.  And now this element of war-bears has just lent itself to a potential subplot, maybe some inter-service rivalry between the two elite groups within this army.  The traditional "elite" group, a unit of hand-picked infantry, deride the beastmaster corps as not courageous or skilled, but merely mad; the beastmasters deride the elite infantry as only there because they demonstrated that they can stand in a pretty parade formation.


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## Svrtnsse (Nov 26, 2013)

Zero Angel said:


> I'm always a fan as well. My dwarves ride rulnira (a mantis-like creature) and landsharks regularly; elves have unicorns, pegasi, gryphons, hippogryphs, shay'talahs (a cheetah-like creature); aviadins use dinosaurs; and then there's tons more. I may have gone a bit overkill in fact, but oh well, I like that sort of stuff



I've got landwhales. They're a bit of mix between a muskox, a blue whale and a catterpillar. They're enormous, but nearly extinct creatures that live on the very vast plains in certain parts of the continent in my setting. They're about the size of a whale, they are hairy like the muskox and they have several pairs of legs, not unlike a catterpillar.
They're not used in warfare and they're not what you'd really call domesticated. However, they're peaceful and docile enough that it's possible to construct dwellings to live in on top of them. The people who do so are mainly hermits (usually elves), who live in a type of symbiosis with the landwhale. The rider/dweller keeps the landwhale free of parasites and the landwhale provides a safe location for an undisturbed home. 
No predator is large enough to be a threat to the landwhale.


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## Snowpoint (Nov 26, 2013)

I wouldn't think Bears would make good mounts.

If I was going to use Bears in the Army, I would make them a natural deterrent. Like, instead of digging a moat, you just have a few dozen Bear roaming the area. Maybe they just scare people away by being there, OR they are trained/enchanted to attack intruders.


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## Zero Angel (Nov 29, 2013)

Svrtnsse said:


> I've got landwhales. They're a bit of mix between a muskox, a blue whale and a catterpillar. They're enormous, but nearly extinct creatures that live on the very vast plains in certain parts of the continent in my setting. They're about the size of a whale, they are hairy like the muskox and they have several pairs of legs, not unlike a catterpillar.
> They're not used in warfare and they're not what you'd really call domesticated. However, they're peaceful and docile enough that it's possible to construct dwellings to live in on top of them. The people who do so are mainly hermits (usually elves), who live in a type of symbiosis with the landwhale. The rider/dweller keeps the landwhale free of parasites and the landwhale provides a safe location for an undisturbed home.
> No predator is large enough to be a threat to the landwhale.



Sounds awesome!

Although, I'd really like to see an actual whale-looking creature working through the land. I really liked the star whales in Doctor Who (or space whales or whatever they're called).

My landsharks are more like giant armadillos than sharks. The fins are armored (and eventually sharp) and dwarves crouch down behind the main fin as it burrows. In my first novel, the dwarf names his landshark "crasher", and the dwarven for landshark is karamshar, which literally means, "one that crashes". He finds this very brilliant.


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## JCFarnham (Nov 29, 2013)

I must say... Guinea Pig-Lions? Either fantastically fanged pack predators, or ridiculously skittery lions who are terrified of literally everything especially humans...

It could go either way and I'd imagine the breeder would have to get pretty creative ;-)


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