# Debating fantasy race ideas and problems



## JamesTFHS (Aug 29, 2013)

So as i have been writing ive been thinking about my lore and the creatures that dwell within. I am really happy with alot of things i have created but i couldn't resist making some changes. this brings me to my first point. I came up with a concept for my dragons and it involves sort of the power of their souls. It was interesting and complicated and fit with an already existing concept but i couldn't help but think of skyrim. The power of the dragon's souls has been used for magic as well as extending life making dragon hunting have alot of different purposes than just proving skill or trophies. One more thing to add to this is Dragons have not always been dragons they come from something else.

My next point is i use a lot of familiar races such as elves, dwarves, nymphs, and dragons. i have one unique species that i am sort of keeping under wraps. now i feel that i have these races that represent beauty and magic really well. Now I would like some races that are darker in a sense. I have thought up alot of ideas but nothing that really sticks. If anyone has some good examples please feel free to list them. Also i have been thinking about adding orcs. Now i would definitly go out of my way to give them their own unique twist but i wonder if this becomes to cliche and i think this would give me a good base for darker species though this does not make them evil as i do not follow the clear distinct lines of good vs evil.


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## Spider (Aug 29, 2013)

> Now I would like some races that are darker in a sense. I have thought up alot of ideas but nothing that really sticks. If anyone has some good examples please feel free to list them.



There are dark elves, demons, undead beings, ghosts, vampires, werewolves, and goblins. And shadow people! Shadow person - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Now i would definitly go out of my way to give them their own unique twist but i wonder if this becomes to cliche...



IMO, it's not so much what you present to your readers as HOW you present it. There's nothing wrong with cliche, and if you put your own spin on it, it should be fine.


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## Saigonnus (Aug 29, 2013)

The prototypical "evil" or "dark" races are your undeads, trolls, ogres, goblins, vampires, ghouls and the like, but I think it would be more realistic to have races that are "percieved" to be evil though they may not necessarily "be" evil. For example, Nymphs could kidnap human males for the purpose of reproduction (since they are all female). To outsiders it would be a reason to avoid them, and depending on how persistent they are and the methods used for subduing targets perhaps they might even be percieved as Evil. For those within society, it would be completely normal to act this way since it would be forced by nature. 

In my WIP I use a race with a sort of "military mentality"... the grunts follow the orders of their corrupted leaders. These leaders mostly have the grunts raid communities for slaves (who later become like they are) but aside from that, generally don't really commit atrocities. The leaders are those that torture and mutilate people, but only to make them into one of their lackeys and it's an unfortunate side effect of the process. They also kill those who invade their territory, giving them a very terrifying "legend" like the head hunters of the amazon.  

I think you are on the right track with not making any one race "evil" just because they exist; like Tolkien did with his Orcs and Uruk-hai's.


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## WooHooMan (Aug 29, 2013)

There are a ton of evil creatures that nobody uses: kobolds, hobgoblins, gremlins, duergars, gargoyles, banshees, etc.
It's seems like the general idea is that "good" races are intelligent/civilized while "evil" races are animalistic/barbaric.  Maybe you should try making the civilized people evil.  I've noticed that it's becoming increasingly common to portray elves as arrogant racists like the elf-Nazis in the Elder Scrolls games.  Then you can have honorable warrior Orcs or friendly dragons.  Mix things up a little.

I sort of like the Robert E. Howard approach of making all the races humans and the evil humans either have a civilized but corrupt society or a barbaric and violent society.  But that's kind of racist.

My story has humans, orc-nymphs and goblins.  They're all equally good/bad but in different ways.  You know, each species' society has both good and bad traits.  I think that that's generally the way to go.


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## Queshire (Aug 30, 2013)

personally my suggestion would be instead of making dark races, attribute dark aspects to the races you have now.
 That said, I think this could help; Main/Fantasy Axis of Evil - Television Tropes & Idioms


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## Mindfire (Aug 30, 2013)

Going against the grain here. It's perfectly doable to make a race that is just evil. And there's nothing wrong with that. The trick is to make them completely alien and inhuman, without any familiar or redeeming qualities, like the xenomorph from Alien, or Michael Meyers from Halloween, or the Terminator. Something that is out for blood and just. Won't. Stop. 

Tolkien gets flack for his pure evil orcs, but people forget that orcs aren't really people. They're bio-engineered super-soldiers bred with a single purpose: to kill whatever Morgoth (and later Sauron) tells them to. They're living weapons, not a real race like elves, humans, and the other Children of Illuvatar.


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## WooHooMan (Aug 31, 2013)

I disagree with Mindfire about the orcs.  The orcs had some degree of intelligence and free will and they were probably capable of doing good.  They only followed Morgoth and Sauron out of fear otherwise they probably could have been as respectable as dwarves or humans.  Just because they weren't created/favored by God the way elves or humans were, that doesn't mean they weren't a real race.

I do agree with Mindfire about making an "evil" race very non-human.  I think a xenomorph-esque creature would be an awesome fantasy bad guy race.  No dark lord or master, just a swarm of near-mindless monsters.  Like they're half-way between people and animals.  That could be pretty cool.


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## JamesTFHS (Aug 31, 2013)

all of your ideas have been handy and good thank you so much. A couple things i have decided for my orcs is that they are the mysterious race as they are very untrusting of other and tend to keep their wisdom and culture life to them selves. However if one ever truly befriends an orc they have the most fierce and loyal companion anyone could ever ask for. Orcs are older than elves in my world. They came into being long before elves did though it is not entirely certain which era of time they came into being. it is possible that orcs are an elder race(elves are not elder) as there is no proof of and elder race which orcs could have stemmed from. Orcs have deep sense of philosophy and wisdom that they keep to themselves which is why many outside races assume they are just brutish. Deep in the wells of their mind they have a vast understanding of life and existence within their own culture. One belief they have is one must accept an animalistic nature as part of their being in order to survive in the world and truly be at peace. Orc physical shape and size vary between orcs. some are about the height of human other a dwarf. few are huge in size equivalent to the hulk. long ago when they lived as tribes orcs often split into tribes based on body mass as well as skin color. Just like their body mass varies so does their skin color. The color of an orcs skin can be anything from a rich forest green to black as the night sky to pale as snow or grey as fallen ash. These colors make up the orc skin all over their vast empires. Green is the most common color while grey is second. Pale orcs are often found in colder harsher climates or deep within the ground. The black orcs are often revered in their culture. they take it as a sign this child has been blessed by the god(or goddess not sure about their belief system yet.) Black orcs find themselves taking on the most highly sought after career paths. Some have become assassin's while other are legendary warriors that all the world fears.


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## ThinkerX (Aug 31, 2013)

A bit late to the thread, but...



> I have thought up alot of ideas but nothing that really sticks. If anyone has some good examples please feel free to list them. Also i have been thinking about adding orcs. Now i would definitly go out of my way to give them their own unique twist but i wonder if this becomes to cliche and i think this would give me a good base for darker species though this does not make them evil as i do not follow the clear distinct lines of good vs evil.



I gave a *lot* of thought to this sort of thing.

First off, I rejected 'orcs' as being too closely linked to Tolkien.  Instead, I went with goblins and hobgoblins as these creatures have a long, independant mythological history.  

However, the mythological goblins and hobgoblins don't bear all that much resemblance to the gaming versions.  (You probably could make a fair case that the goblins of myth are the same creatures as the dwarves of myth).  Among other things, they were associated with or made independant use of magic, while the 'game' goblins come across as petty thugs.  

There was also the 'moral' issue, as pointed out in this thread: the 'standard' goblins don't really have a reason to be evil other than 'I the author say so'.  I wanted to give the goblins and hobgoblins legitimate reasons to be percieved as 'evil' by others.

The solution I hit on was to steal an idea from 'Harnworld' (spectacular maps, but good luck finding any of it anywhere) : a way way lopsided male-female ratio.  Basically, male goblins outnumber females by something on the order of a hundred to one.  Having progeny is a major biological motivator.  Hence, male goblins and hobgoblins must *really* impress the females - which means everything from bloody tournaments and assassinations among themselves (which also weeds out the competition) to mounting raids and invasions of the neighbors.  The male goblin that does the best at this gets picked by one of the ladies, they have a bit of biological 'fun', and sometime afterwards, the lady literally lays up to a dozen or so leathery eggs.  The proud papa goblin, breeding days over, spends the next few years raising his proud brood, whilst the lady picks another champion and lays another batch of eggs.

There's more to this - I've worked out barbarian and sophisticated civilized versions of these races.  (In the civilized version, dueling and contests of skill replaces most of the assassinations, and many male goblins spend celibate lives in monasteries, among other things.)


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## Jastius (Aug 31, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> Tolkien gets flack for his pure evil orcs, but people forget that orcs aren't really people. They're bio-engineered super-soldiers bred with a single purpose: to kill whatever Morgoth (and later Sauron) tells them to. They're living weapons, not a real race like elves, humans, and the other Children of Illuvatar.



wouldn't the orokai be the super soldiers? weren't the orcs simply elves captured by the dark forces and kept as slaves then degenerating because of their exposure to the evil surrounding them? the reason the elves were so graceful is because they had lived with the gods and absorbed that beauty.. its sort of the difference between someone from Hollywood and the rest of us.
i don't think that orcs are of themselves bad. they just aren't good.


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## Chad Lynch (Sep 1, 2013)

I must admit to liking the corrupt civilized evil races of late more than crude savages.  Fritz Leiber had a race in one of his stories that were basically humans, but they had translucent skin.  All you could readily see were their skeletons and hair.  They were an ancient, decadent people who had been reduced to a single city-state.  They saw themselves as superior to 'mud-fleshed' people, and occasionally indulged in eating these lesser races.

I would also suggest taking a look at the Greek goddess Hecate.  She was the goddess of both magic and to a lesser extent the dead.  Shrines to her could be found at cross roads, grave yards, and other places where restless spirits were thought to haunt.  Perhaps magic in your world could be a two sides affair with good magic practiced mostly by one race, and a darker kind of magic practiced by another.


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## A.F.Grappin (Sep 1, 2013)

ThinkerX said:


> The solution I hit on was to steal an idea from 'Harnworld' (spectacular maps, but good luck finding any of it anywhere) : a way way lopsided male-female ratio.  Basically, male goblins outnumber females by something on the order of a hundred to one.  Having progeny is a major biological motivator.  Hence, male goblins and hobgoblins must *really* impress the females - which means everything from bloody tournaments and assassinations among themselves (which also weeds out the competition) to mounting raids and invasions of the neighbors.  The male goblin that does the best at this gets picked by one of the ladies, they have a bit of biological 'fun', and sometime afterwards, the lady literally lays up to a dozen or so leathery eggs.  The proud papa goblin, breeding days over, spends the next few years raising his proud brood, whilst the lady picks another champion and lays another batch of eggs.



This doesn't really help with the conversation, but I just really love this idea. Cool!


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## wordwalker (Sep 1, 2013)

A variation might be something some SF does: children are conceived artificially, from stored "materials" the people have left. This reverses the urge to survive: instead of needed to stay alive to breed, a warrior wants to survive long enough to find a really glorious death (or other feat), so his blood will be chosen to sire the most children.


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## mollymortensen (Sep 2, 2013)

I don't like the idea that some races are all evil and some are all good. I prefer having the race be a mix of good and evil or having opposing factions. That being said I don't think there's anything wrong with going with common races. Everyone has heard of them and has a certain thought of what they should be like, but that doesn't mean they have to be stereotypes. Do you have humans in your story too?


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## JamesTFHS (Sep 2, 2013)

Great comments guys i like hearing well reading your different thoughts and opinions. It made me decide that orc is not the original name of the species. they call themselves the Ã³riÃ¡s which is monster in Hungarian. The terms of orcs, ogers and goblins come from humans giving them those names. They might be based on the tribal names of said Ã³riÃ¡s were encounter. So they encounter a tribe that called themselves the orcs so that is how the slang term was formed. This answers mollymortensen's question if i have humans in my world. I do and i think ill have hobgoblins who are half breeds of orc and men from orc raping and pillaging. 

For those questioning if my orcs are pure evil just like all my races they possess a moral concepts and have their own concepts of good and evil. Orcs have done terrible things and are most often hated for said crimes and have suffer racial stereotypes in their time. But i do have a few exceptions. There will be cultures that have orcs living within their own society and have accepted them thus creating a melting pot kind of culture here and there. So really though named as orcs they are not just that simple.


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## WooHooMan (Sep 2, 2013)

What are you trying to do with your orcs?  Are you trying to put a twist on orcs or subverting common expectations of orcs?  Or something else?
Your orcs are sounding pretty standard so far.  They're like the Mongol-esque horde.


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## JamesTFHS (Sep 4, 2013)

They were once a horde in their past. currently they have established and actual empire and culture. They still have a powerful army but it is more disciplined and civil. In other parts of the world they have intergrated into other cultures and adapted their beliefs and cultural norms. so they are pretty diverse.


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## WooHooMan (Sep 4, 2013)

Oh, I see.  So it's the evolution of the standard orcs.  That's pretty cool.  I actually got something similar in my story.


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