# How long is too long for a prologue?



## Leif Notae (Jan 15, 2013)

The reason I ask is due to a review of the last Wheel of Time novel where they stated the prologue was over 60 pages long. 

That's almost as long as a novella or a very long short story (15000 words).

Wha...?

Granted, I'm sure everyone already knows my opinion that Sanderson is the worst modern writer that ever tapped on the keys, but even without that qualifying statement, this is dumb. Sometimes you just need to cut the stuff out.

So, how long of a prologue is too long for you?


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 15, 2013)

1 word, but I hate prologues.

For the specific case you mentioned, however, I don't consider the "prologue" in A Memory of Light a typical prologue.  It's really used to catch you up on what a bunch of the minor characters are doing.  Once you get through it to the book, you know they're starting to focus on the major characters.

One could well argue that the minor characters are unnecessary, but that's different conversation...


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## JBryden88 (Jan 15, 2013)

I've read 30 page prologues and two page prologues. It really depends on if the prologue is interesting or not, and adds anything to the overall story.


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## JCFarnham (Jan 15, 2013)

Depends entire on whether you can sustain interest for as long as it takes to get through you 60 page monster prologue. There's a good way to do it, and a bad way (I hope we all know the difference because I'm not going to get into that mess right now).

Here's my rule of thumb: Longer than a regular chapter? That too long. Pretty arbitrary I'll admit, but I like my prologues short and sweet.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Jan 15, 2013)

As long as it needs to be in order to do the job, I guess. However I personally wouldn't make it longer than a chapter, probably shorter.


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## atkogirl85 (Jan 15, 2013)

Wow, 60 pages is way too long.
Given that prologues in general are a bit of a button issue these days anything more than 15 - 20 pages would be pushing it. And that is assuming that the prologue is 1. Essential and _relevant_ to the introduction of the story and 2. Is interesting enough to hold the attention of the multitudes who will likely put it down after a page and a half of half a mediocre prologue...

I've been debating the whole prologue issue myself lately.... So many opinions... So very frustrating


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## Anders Ã„mting (Jan 15, 2013)

atkogirl85 said:


> I've been debating the whole prologue issue myself lately.... So many opinions... So very frustrating



I don't really get it, personally. If your story needs a prologue, it needs a prologue. I don't normally use them, but the story I'm working on now has a prologue because I felt it required one.

So, what's to debate?


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## JCFarnham (Jan 15, 2013)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> I don't really get it, personally. If your story needs a prologue, it needs a prologue. I don't normally use them, but the story I'm working on now has a prologue because I felt it required one.
> 
> So, what's to debate?



There are some misguided people out there who, upon seeing just the _word_ prologue, will skip it. Doesn't matter if it's written well or not, on to chapter one they go. I always hope that it doesn't happen, but I've heard plenty of people say something to this effect.

With that in mind then, putting anything important in your prologue is a risk, right? I hate that it's true, but some people do hate them that much. 

I've taken to the advice that, if I _ever_ write a prologue for something, I won't title it "prologue" up-front. I'd feel awful having to trick people to read somerthing, but then again it's better than some moron skipping it and ruining their enjoyment of my hard work.


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## MadMadys (Jan 15, 2013)

JCFarnham said:


> With that in mind then, putting anything important in your prologue is a risk, right? I hate that it's true, but some people do hate them that much.
> .



If you include nothing important in your prologue then why have it at all?

I always thought of people that skip a prologue as thinking they know the author's story better than the author from the get go.  If the author chose to do it, whether as an info-dump or framing device or whatever, as a reader I give that author enough trust to read what they have regardless of what its titled.  If someone doesn't like prologues then they can just never include one in their stories and be happy with that.  To begrudge others for something as minor as including one seems just silly and petty to me, but that is just my opinion on the matter.  All of this is.

As for length, 60 does strike me as being on the excessive side of things.  Personally, I don't do prologues but for the one story I outlined that had one, it was just a couple pages to sort of 'set the scene' of things.  A prologue that is as long, or longer than, a chapter might as well be one, I would think,


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## Anders Ã„mting (Jan 15, 2013)

JCFarnham said:


> With that in mind then, putting anything important in your prologue is a risk, right?



...But that's the only reason to use a prologue in the first place!


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## atkogirl85 (Jan 15, 2013)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> I don't really get it, personally. If your story needs a prologue, it needs a prologue. I don't normally use them, but the story I'm working on now has a prologue because I felt it required one.
> 
> So, what's to debate?



What's not to debate? :frown2::frown2:  

Actually my debate is totally self inflicted by myself. I have a prologue which is pretty vital to my story and characters which I was quite happy with... Now I am second guessing myself as to whether I could include the same information and feeling by referencing parts of the prologue throughout the story.

I think the debate of prologues these days is about 10% - Choice/preference 20%- necessity and 70% - insecurity / influence based on public opinion and the ever-looming 'Do's and Don'ts'....


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## Leif Notae (Jan 15, 2013)

It's simple. A prologue is meant to open for a "weak" or "normal" protagonist who cannot carry the opening themselves. The prologue is for the villain to star and give the stakes of the story.

Any other prologue is worthless. I don't care if 1000 have to be refreshed. I don't care if ten-thousand nations lived and died before the first chapter started, and I sure as hell don't care if you bury the main idea/concept/thread inside your prologue in hopes I'll read it. If it isn't about the villain giving me the stakes, it is wrong.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Jan 15, 2013)

Leif Notae said:


> It's simple. A prologue is meant to open for a "weak" or "normal" protagonist who cannot carry the opening themselves. The prologue is for the villain to star and give the stakes of the story.



...That's pretty much word for word what I'm doing with my prologue.

Not to say my MC is too weak to carry the opening herself, just I don't think what happens at the end of chapter one makes much sense unless I introduce the villain first.


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## Zero Angel (Jan 15, 2013)

In regards to Sanderson's handling of WoT, Jordan was doing the same thing by the end of his tenure with WoT. If there was ever a time I would heed Steerpike's lead to skip the prologue, it would be in re-readings of Wheel of Time novels. 



Anders Ã„mting said:


> ...But that's the only reason to use a prologue in the first place!



Some people use them as hooks with action/undeveloped characters to allow their first few chapters to be a little more typical "Act I" stuff. 

I've always loved prologues and epilogues personally, so I will probably always have them. I use them to set-up the story from a POV that is at least a little alien/removed from the main POVs of the book or a little outside of the story but is directly relevant to the story. 

For instance, in my prologue to the sequel of The Throne of Ao, I set up a major character for Book 3 and add some moral/emotional issues for the "good" protagonist while doing so, I launch a character arc of a secondary protagonist violently, I start a war, and I wrap up one of the loose ends of Book I in such a way that it's completely unraveled and ready for action. Then Chapter 1 is the start of the "main" storyline. 

In this way, although the information is extremely relevant and interesting, with the exception of the unraveled loose end, a reader can reasonably go into the book without it (although I do not recommend it). 

Although I don't feel that you you have to cave to peer pressure and avoid a prologue entirely, I definitely recommend finding some other way to communicate the information in addition to the prologue.


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## Leif Notae (Jan 15, 2013)

Zero Angel said:


> For instance, in my prologue to the sequel of The Throne of Ao, I set up a major character for Book 3 and add some moral/emotional issues for the "good" protagonist while doing so, I launch a character arc of a secondary protagonist violently, I start a war, and I wrap up one of the loose ends of Book I in such a way that it's completely unraveled and ready for action. Then Chapter 1 is the start of the "main" storyline.



So why not use this as your main story instead of wedging it into a prologue not many people would read?  At first blush, it sounds like you have the basis for something interesting that can carry out a novel itself.

And yes, burn all your prologues and epilogues. Even in a series, it is overdone.


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## Leif Notae (Jan 15, 2013)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> ...That's pretty much word for word what I'm doing with my prologue.
> 
> Not to say my MC is too weak to carry the opening herself, just I don't think what happens at the end of chapter one makes much sense unless I introduce the villain first.



Is your MC wielding a chainsaw or a demonic blade and dispatching baddies at every turn? Is she tossing fireballs and showing her inherent strength? If not, she is a "weak" character. She doesn't have the "strength" in normal life to lead the show. It isn't a reflection on her character, but her abilities.


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## Zero Angel (Jan 15, 2013)

Leif Notae said:


> So why not use this as your main story instead of wedging it into a prologue not many people would read?  At first blush, it sounds like you have the basis for something interesting that can carry out a novel itself.
> 
> And yes, burn all your prologues and epilogues. Even in a series, it is overdone.



Because they're the--wait for it--_words before_ the start of the main storyline of the book proper. They also occur chronologically before Chapter 1. 

I always liked the idea of a Chapter Zero


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## Steerpike (Jan 15, 2013)

Leif Notae said:


> The reason I ask is due to a review of the last Wheel of Time novel where they stated the prologue was over 60 pages long.



Sanderson is just keeping with the style of lengthy prologues Robert Jordan established for that series, as near as I can tell. They're all been pretty long for a number of books now.


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## FatCat (Jan 15, 2013)

Zero Angel said:


> I always liked the idea of a Chapter Zero



I wonder, have there been any books where the chapters are arranged chronologically? For instance, if there is a flashback, then you'd go from chapter 18 to chapter.....-4!


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## Zero Angel (Jan 15, 2013)

FatCat said:


> I wonder, have there been any books where the chapters are arranged chronologically? For instance, if there is a flashback, then you'd go from chapter 18 to chapter.....-4!



I've heard of this before, and there are a few that use inventive sequences. For instance, "The Curious Case of the Dog in the Night-Time" has its chapters go by prime numbers.


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## Leif Notae (Jan 15, 2013)

Zero Angel said:


> Because they're the--wait for it--_words before_ the start of the main storyline of the book proper. They also occur chronologically before Chapter 1.
> 
> I always liked the idea of a Chapter Zero



That doesn't make it a good story choice, and you would be undermining your story structure by doing so. Again, i ask, what is to prevent you from putting this inside the novel itself or making a new novel (besides the "artistic" desire, since that doesn't exist)?



Steerpike said:


> Sanderson is just keeping with the style of lengthy prologues Robert Jordan established for that series, as near as I can tell. They're all been pretty long for a number of books now.



Well, considering there were four prologues in The Way of Kings, I doubt it was to "match" Jordan.


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## PaulineMRoss (Jan 15, 2013)

Prologues are traditional in fantasy, so why ever not, if it feels right? The author is the final (and only) arbiter of what properly should, or should not, be in their book. And honestly, a reader has to be pretty daft to skip over the very first lines of the book, just because they're labelled 'Prologue' rather than 'Chapter 1' ;-)

Having said that, there are (IMO) good prologues and bad prologues. A good prologue is something that is properly outside the main flow of the narrative - a defining incident from the protagonist's childhood, a critical piece of world history, or yes, the villain in mustache-twirling mode. A bad prologue is put there solely to start things off with a bang, or to dangle some distant carrot in front of the reader - keep reading, folks, and look, you'll get all this lovely action, or mystery revealed. It's as if the author doesn't trust the reader to keep going without some bribery. I know lots of people love the prologue to 'A Game of Thrones', but to my mind it epitomises all the worst aspects of prologues - characters who are immediately killed, instant blood-bespattered action and a mysterious peril which isn't seen again for umpteen hundred pages.

Sorry, rant over.


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## Steerpike (Jan 15, 2013)

I've passed over plenty of books once I see there is a prologue, and by 'passed over' I mean put back on the shelf and bought something else. I'll buy them with prologues, but it's an extra hurdle to be overcome in terms of getting me to select that book. Once I've bought the book, I have no problem skipping the prologue, though I'll usually give the author a little bit of time to sell me on the idea, even though the author herself knows very well she started the book somewhere other than at the beginning, which is why she had to employ the label 'prologue' in the first place. 

If the prologue sucks, as so many seem to, or if the book doesn't seem to hold up without it, I don't have a problem throwing the book in the trash and moving on to the next book in my to-read pile, which is enormous as it is. I don't lack for things to read, so having skipped a specific book or even a specific author doesn't bother me.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Jan 15, 2013)

Leif Notae said:


> Is your MC wielding a chainsaw or a demonic blade and dispatching baddies at every turn? Is she tossing fireballs and showing her inherent strength? If not, she is a "weak" character. She doesn't have the "strength" in normal life to lead the show. It isn't a reflection on her character, but her abilities.



Technically speaking, the first thing she does when she ends up in a dangerous situation is to go violently insane and rip a guys arm off. So it's not that she herself is weak so much as she is living a rather peaceful live and is unaware of her strenght.

Also, the main reason I'm using a prologue is actually pacing. See, I make the prologue a part of chapter one proper, but then I would have to jam it in somewhere in the middle between scenes I use for introducing the MC. I don't like how that would pace, and it feels much more natural to put it right at the start. And since it's much shorter than a chapter, making it a prologue makes more sense.


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## Zero Angel (Jan 15, 2013)

Leif Notae said:


> That doesn't make it a good story choice, and you would be undermining your story structure by doing so. Again, i ask, what is to prevent you from putting this inside the novel itself or making a new novel (besides the "artistic" desire, since that doesn't exist)?


And style (artistic design) isn't a thing? 

I'd only be undermining the story structure to people unwilling to give my story the benefit of my own manner of writing it. If you don't want to read the stories I write because there are prologues, then don't read them. Honestly, the entire anti-prologue thing is something I will never understand. 

How is it any different than saying you're against Chapter 8? If you're against Chapter 8s and a major development comes up in CH8 that you miss, have _I_ undermined my story structure or was that the reader that skipped the chapter's doing? 

I can understand being against "bad prologues", but if you change the label to "Chapter 1" instead of "Prologue", then it would just be a bad Chapter 1. Whatever. 

By artistic design in my main series, I have been doing a parallel between the prologues and epilogues, giving them the same chapter titles and having similar themes involved, but again, they are "prologues" and "epilogues" because they are the words before and the words after. The main storyline has either not fully started or has already been wrapped up. Instead, they are a bridge between books or between the "real world" and the fantasy world I created. If you want to jump off the bridge, then don't complain when you get wet. 

Are yins against interlude chapters as well? What if instead of calling them interlude chapters, we just title them with the non-major character's name they contain? Side stories are off the table too? Wait, I know, how about the next time someone wants to write a book they just ask you what to do and do what you think is best 

Do yins fast forward the opening sequence in a TV show or movie--the part that is before the credits? 

The only thing I dislike are openings that are a fast forward and then the beginning starts with "24 hours earlier..." or something along those lines. But again, that is a personal preference. It's a strike against, but not something that I am going to avoid until the author/writer gives me a reason to put down the work that is something more substantial than a relatively minor stylistic choice.

I just don't understand.


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## Steerpike (Jan 15, 2013)

It's quite different from Chapter 8. And also different from a bad Chapter 1. Prologues are often bad because the writer is forcing it onto a story that doesn't need it. Chapter 1 is fine as an opening, but the writer has in his head some idea that he's got this backstory or other cool thing he needs to tell the reader about before he gets to the story. The comparison to a bad Chapter 8 or even a bad 1st Chapter overlooks the reasons that so many prologues are bad to begin with.


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## Zero Angel (Jan 15, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> It's quite different from Chapter 8. And also different from a bad Chapter 1. Prologues are often bad because the writer is forcing it onto a story that doesn't need it. Chapter 1 is fine as an opening, but the writer has in his head some idea that he's got this backstory or other cool thing he needs to tell the reader about before he gets to the story. The comparison to a bad Chapter 8 or even a bad 1st Chapter overlooks the reasons that so many prologues are bad to begin with.


So you're against bad prologues and because they're so commonly bad no one should do them anymore. A valid position, but telling people to not write prologues will result in impressionable people saying it's Chapter 1 but still writing it as a prologue. Personally, my prologues/epilogues nearly always involve main characters but I put them in prologues/epilogues because, yes, there is some backstory or wrap-up-story that I want to convey in chronological order. I don't think that's a bad thing, but I am biased.


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## Steerpike (Jan 15, 2013)

I don't recall saying no one should do them anymore. People should write what they want to write. I only responded because of statements in this thread implying that a reader is somehow doing something wrong by skipping one or refusing to buy a book with some long, drawn-out prologue in it. Just as I am the best judge of what my story need when I am writing it, I'm also the best judge of what I do or do not want to read when I'm a reader.


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## Zero Angel (Jan 15, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> I don't recall saying no one should do them anymore. People should write what they want to write. I only responded because of statements in this thread implying that a reader is somehow doing something wrong by skipping one or refusing to buy a book with some long, drawn-out prologue in it. Just as I am the best judge of what my story need when I am writing it, I'm also the best judge of what I do or do not want to read when I'm a reader.



Gah, mixed you up with Leif. 

In fact, I think your reading method is probably MORE tolerant than mine. If a prologue is bad and I can't get past it, then I put the book down, not skip to CH1 to see if it improves. 

Maybe it's naive of me to think that authors that are able to write are able to handle the prologue weapon effectively as well and I should give them a second chance in the bona fide CH 1.


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## Jamber (Jan 16, 2013)

I'm ruthless at reading prologues too, but have to say I love a good one — punchy, cool and if possible a cliffhanger, setting up the stakes and the chronological context of the quest/drama to come. I dislike reading about characters I'm not going to meet or care for in the main story, but if the prologue is dramatic enough (a pure hook, in fact), _and_ if it sets up the terms of the story I'm about to read, I'm happy it's there.

A long prologue is something else again; it seems to need a more thorough sense of character, setting, mood etc — and the risk is readers won't want to switch heads when the 'real' story starts. (I know I'm easily annoyed when I've made that kind of investment in a narrative.)

For me, if the choice is between revealing some massively important earlier-era event through dialogue and revealing it through a smart, snappy prologue, when writing fantasy I'd go the prologue. But always consider taking it out when reviewing the book... just in case it's something nobody misses. 

Just my little thought, for what it's worth.
Jamber


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## Mari (Jan 19, 2013)

I have not read through all of the other comments, just the start of the thread. I think 60 pages is too long. I think most of the time, the background info can be woven into the story.


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## Mari (Jan 19, 2013)

I am not crazy about prologues either. I agree with BWFoster78.


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