# Using elves as a substitute for humans (no humans fantasy)



## Peregrine (Jul 24, 2017)

I must say that I am determined not to include both humans and elves, its either humans or elves and I opted for elves instead.

The only difference between my elves and humans in real life is that elves can be magicians (can have magical powers), while humans in real life can not use magic. 
It is important to have in mind that magic in my world is not restricted to elves and that all "races" have the ability to use magic.

Instead of pointy-eared and long-haired, I like the version they were described in Norse myths and saga, DESPITE POPULAR MENTAL IMAGE, In the Norse myths and sagas, elves were physically described to look just like humans, they did not have pointy ears and they could grow a beard just like humans (although elves were usually more beautiful than men).

My elves are not divine nor mystical and they are *not immortal*, as said the only difference between humans in real life and my elves is the ABILITY TO USE MAGIC.

I must say that I am determined not to include both humans and elves, its either humans or elves and I opted for elves instead. I do not want two races that look the same (please don't bore me with examples of how elves can be different, that's your type of elves you like, I only like elves described in Norse sagas.).

My elves are not divided into dark elves, high elves, wood elves..., nor do they have pointy ears.

They can have castles and cities too like humans did in real life, my elf can be a ugly peasant, a gray-haired blacksmith, a black-skinned warrior from the far south or a monk with a long beard.

Using elves as a substitute for humans I want to emphasize that this is a fictional world (not our Earth), its also easier for the reader to believe that elves can use magic rather than a human, SCENARIO 1: He is a human, I wonder where do his magical abilities come from? Is it inherent/studied or else? SCENARIO 2: He is an elf, therefore I do not need to infodump explanations where does his magic come from.

Questions:

What do you think about making elves immortal, do you think its necessary to make them immortal (living for thousands of years)? 

Do you think its necessary that they have long lives, if they are not immortal?

What do you think about my elves?


----------



## TheKillerBs (Jul 24, 2017)

Honestly... I'd just go with magical humans. People are used to magical humans in fantasy. Noone will bat an eye at them. On the other hand, elves have baggage, and that baggage includes pointy ears and other stuff you aren't including in your elves. At best, this means your readers will ignore your elves in favour of their mental image, at worst it'll throw them off the story.


----------



## Peregrine (Jul 24, 2017)

I think you're being a slave to the popular mental image.

The idea of pointy-eared shaven elves was because of Christmas elves and a connotation with faeries, Lord of the Rings movie also popularized that.

Tolkien never imagined elves as pointy eared.
They do although always have shaven faces and long hair, except Cirdan who is an anomaly because he has a beard.

Cirdan: Cirdan by kimberly80 on DeviantArt
Feanor: Star of Feanor by kimberly80 on DeviantArt

I decided to include elf not because Tolkien had it, but because I read a lot about Norse mythology and I was inspired.

My inspirations are Norse saga (ORIGINAL MYTHS, NOT TOLKIEN) where they are described as not having pointy ears and shaven faces, they just looked like humans (and yes, they could grow a beard), its only mentioned that an average elf is more beautiful than a average human.

Tolkien just played with it and created elves as we know today, except they have those pointy ears.

Read Silmarillion, read Norse sagas, you will see that in both there are no elves with pointy ears.


----------



## TheKillerBs (Jul 24, 2017)

The key word here is "popular". No one cares what the originals looked like,  or what Tolkien imagined. The image in the Zeitgeist matters, what the population at large thinks when they see elf. The random person is who will be reading your work. Go against your readership's expectations at your own peril.

Unless you're writing for an audience of one, then ignore everything I've said.


----------



## Peregrine (Jul 25, 2017)

I do not care about reader's expectation.

The most popular version of a mythical creature is most often that which is cliche and I have allergic reactions to cliches.

You are treating elves like everybody will picture them the same as you, YES the most popular currently is that of a human-sized pointy eared humanoid, but he might as well think he was reading about a house elf, christmas elf, hobgoblin or some kind of fairy it he was a total dummy to fantasy.


----------



## skip.knox (Jul 25, 2017)

TheKillerBs already said
"Unless you're writing for an audience of one, then ignore everything I've said. "

No need to argue when the other fellow has already conceded the issue is moot.


----------



## Peregrine (Jul 25, 2017)

I started to get interest in fantasy because of Norse mythology, the only reason why I want to have such elves is because I base my world heavily on Norse mythology. I am inspired by reading and learning about Norse mythology and not Tolkien. I did not include orcs, halflings and talking trees because I recognize them as Tolkien's inventions. I took all "races" from Norse mythology and planted it into my setting except gods (Aesir and Vanir).

It is normal for someone to say that my setting is Tolkienesque (although it was not my intent for it to look Tolkienesque, my intention was to make a world that feels "Norse").

It is tolkienesque and it is not tolkienesque at the same time.
It is tolkienesque because there are dwarfs and elves, and it is not because Tolkien was not my source of inspiration, it was the Norse stories and sagas, Wayland the Smith, Beowulf, Surtr who wants to burn the world at Ragnarok).

I call my dwarves, dwarfs, because Tolkien invented the term dwarf, and before Tolkien the plural of dwarf was dwarfs.

I am a fan of viking-themed things, Norse mythology, I read every article there could be found. About Draugar, about Surtr, about Seidhr, or the ergi (unmanly) magic of Odin, about Thor's voyage to Jotunheim, about Ragnarok.


----------



## Annoyingkid (Jul 25, 2017)

Without any need to foil humans, your elves can be as human as you like. Personally I would be uncomfortable using human ears, but I suppose you want it to be as anti fae as possible. You could come up with some other distinguishing physical feature perhaps. 

But this is what I mean when I say the line between magical humans and elves is basically non existent. A true human has no magic and reflects the human condition in all it's vulnerability.



> Tolkien never imagined elves as pointy eared.



_"I am afraid, if you will need drawings of hobbits in various attitudes, I must leave it in the hands of someone who can draw. ... I picture a fairly human figure ... fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; *ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'*; hair short and curling (brown)."
JRRT - Letters #27, writing to Houghton Mifflin circa March-April 1938_


----------



## pischtoph (Jul 25, 2017)

Do what you Will, but trying to get acceptance is pointless, if it works for you it will, if not, well some may just point the finger and laugh. Also if you ask a question, respect the answer, or there was no reason to ask the question but arguing the same point over and over is just a waste of time. 

Elves are what we have now pointy earred and immortal, would i read your book where you call men elves, maybe, if it was free but alas I wouldn't pay for it you because it sounds as if you gave humans a pretty to try to suck people into liking as you put it "My elves". Since they are a major selling point in fantasy novels. 

P.s. I love how you call them "My elves" not the Norse elves, so it really subtracts from the rest of your statements. 

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


----------



## Annoyingkid (Jul 25, 2017)

Peregrine said:


> ).
> 
> I call my dwarves, dwarfs, because Tolkien invented the term dwarf, and before Tolkien the plural of dwarf was dwarfs.
> 
> .



Why the inconsistent pluralization? It makes more sense if you're using dwarfs, to go with elfs. Fits thematically as well as elfs are a more real world sounding term then "elves", distinguishes yours better from what's commonly understood by fantasy elves.

Tolkien invented the term dwarf? I thought it was used in the real world to describe people with dwarfism long beforehand.


----------



## Peregrine (Jul 25, 2017)

> "I am afraid, if you will need drawings of hobbits in various attitudes, I must leave it in the hands of someone who can draw. ... I picture a fairly human figure ... fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown)."
> JRRT - Letters #27, writing to Houghton Mifflin circa March-April 1938



The quote was about hobbits, not elves.



> I love how you call them "My elves" not the Norse elves



I don't know why do you think it's funny to call them "my elves", when my elves are certainly going to have differences from the elves in Norse mythology, so its fine to call them "my elves", because everybody's elves are going to be different, even if the differences are small.



> Tolkien invented the term dwarf? I thought it was used in the real world to describe people with dwarfism long beforehand.



That was a typo, what I meant to say is, Tolkien invented the term dwarves.


----------



## Annoyingkid (Jul 25, 2017)

The quote was about hobbits, but he said ears "slightly pointed and elvish". Meaning slightly pointed = elvish.

This was confirmed when The Lost Road  and Other Writings was published in 1987. In the Etymologies under the first definition of ‘LAS’, which is the element in lasse meaning ‘leaf’, there is this note: “The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human]” (p.368).


----------



## Demesnedenoir (Jul 25, 2017)

Like anything, it can work. What do I think of them? Not much from this. What makes an elf interesting is not the shape of their ears, skin color, or mythology they're based on. It's how all things that make them an "elf" in your world influences their culture and how it all plays into the story being told.


----------



## Malik (Jul 25, 2017)

Demesnedenoir said:


> What makes an elf interesting is not the shape of their ears, skin color, or mythology they're based on. It's how all things that make them an "elf" in your world influences their culture and how it all plays into the story being told.



This. If they're just humans who look different, then how will it make your story different by calling them elves? What are their values and beliefs, and how will that affect the angle through which the reader experiences the story? 

What would be fun would be a race of pointy-eared, slender humans that everybody _calls_ elves, but who are really just humans. They'd get exasperated every time a human asked them to talk to trees or shoot a bow or do magic. 

"I told you! We don't do any of that crap! We just have weird ears."


----------



## Annoyingkid (Jul 25, 2017)

He made himself clear in the OP why elves are being used. He finds magical humans logically unjustifiable.


----------



## Peregrine (Jul 25, 2017)

Because of their association of being divine and being creatures that are demigods in Norse mythology, I am thinking of not including elves and returning humans.

To me elves sound like mystical and god-like beings, calling my humans elves is not going to work, because they are not better than elves, so *I am abandoning elves.*

I don't know if they are immortal in Norse saga, but they were often compared to gods, especially the vanir.

When I am making characters such as peasants, miners, beggars, scumbags, non-magicians, I find it hard to name my humans elves and it would be weird to call them elves even if the Norse mythology tells that they look identical to humans.



> He made himself clear in the OP why elves are being used. He finds magical humans logically unjustifiable.



I  am wrong about that. There is plenty of literature where humans can control magic such as Harry Pottter and A Song of Ice and Fire. In Norse mythology, even humans believed they could perform magic. People in the past (specifically Middle Ages and Antiquity) believed that they could control magic, people believed that god's miracles were possible such as faith healing, exorcism, but they also believed that witchcraft is real, if they did not believe witchcraft was real people would not burn witches.

I am narrow-minded to think that its strange for humans to be wielders of magic.


----------



## Annoyingkid (Jul 25, 2017)

It's not narrow minded to seek realism if that is what you prefer.


----------



## Mythopoet (Jul 25, 2017)

Peregrine said:


> Read Silmarillion, read Norse sagas, you will see that in both there are no elves with pointy ears.



There is no definitive proof that Tolkien's elves either had pointed ears or didn't. No one knows. We know Hobbit ears were slightly pointed and compared to "elvish" ears. Many have taken this as inspiration to portray Tolkien's Elves with pointed ears and as far as we know Tolkien had no problem with art that gave Elves pointed ears. 

Do the original Norse works actually say that the alfar could grow bears and did not have pointed ears? Because my impression was that they were not described in detail, though I have not read them myself so obviously I could be wrong. But my limited research led me to believe that the liosalfar were merely described as being "fairer than the sun to look at" and the dokkalfar as being "blacker than pitch". I've never seen anyone else mention any other descriptive details of them.


----------



## Mythopoet (Jul 25, 2017)

Peregrine said:


> I  am wrong about that. There is plenty of literature where humans can control magic such as Harry Pottter and A Song of Ice and Fire. In Norse mythology, even humans believed they could perform magic. People in the past (specifically Middle Ages and Antiquity) believed that they could control magic, people believed that god's miracles were possible such as faith healing, exorcism, but they also believed that witchcraft is real, if they did not believe witchcraft was real people would not burn witches.



I admit I was quite baffled by that assertion since belief in human beings performing acts of magic is ancient.


----------



## Annoyingkid (Jul 25, 2017)

Mythopoet said:


> I admit I was quite baffled by that assertion since belief in human beings performing acts of magic is ancient.



The magic humans believed they could do were things like making the crops come the next season, aka things that could have happened anyway.


----------



## Mythopoet (Jul 25, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> The magic humans believed they could do were things like making the crops come the next season, aka things that could have happened anyway.



You're wrong, but it literally doesn't matter what they believed they were doing. The point is that humans have always believed that humans could be involved in and/or perform magic. Magic is not something limited to supernatural races in the human imagination.


----------



## Malik (Jul 25, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> The magic humans believed they could do were things like making the crops come the next season, aka things that could have happened anyway.



So . . . parting the Red Sea, walking on water? Penn and Teller? Are you sure about that? Because I'm pretty sure that a lot of humans believe that other humans could pull off some pretty amazing stuff. Spells on papyrus dating back to Ancient Greece and even Egypt survive today.







*An Egyptian (edit: Coptic) spell to gain a magical singing voice, 6-7th Century AD. Go kill 'em at karaoke.*​
The old Norse word for "magic" (_fjÃ¶lkyngi_) is derived from the word for "knowledge" (_kunni_). The very people the OP is referring to for his worldbuilding believed that magic was just a part of the everyday world that they didn't understand. They believed that anyone could work magic if they just learned enough about the world and its goings-on. I'm pretty sure that very little of what they saw as magic fell under the auspices of "things that could have happened anyway." 

Whether it's the loaves and the fishes or pulling a rabbit out of a hat, "something that could have happened anyway" is almost exactly the definition of what magic is not.


----------



## skip.knox (Jul 25, 2017)

Also, the clear divide between what is "real" and what is supernatural is rather a modern one. I definitely use that in my world-building. There is little sense of an objective reality existing external to perception. People for the most part deal with what they themselves have seen, and what they have heard from others--producing facts on a sliding scale, depending on how the individual regards the source of the report. It's way more fun than trying to make up absolute rules.


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie (Jul 26, 2017)

Peregrine said:


> I must say that I am determined not to include both humans and elves, its either humans or elves and I opted for elves instead.
> 
> The only difference between my elves and humans in real life is that elves can be magicians (can have magical powers), while humans in real life can not use magic.
> It is important to have in mind that magic in my world is not restricted to elves and that all "races" have the ability to use magic.
> ...



If they're identical to humans other than the ability to use magic there is no reason to call them elves. 

Plenty of books have magic using humans. In one of my WIP's all humans can use magic. 

There's just no point.


----------



## Annoyingkid (Jul 27, 2017)

Malik said:


> So . . . parting the Red Sea, walking on water? Penn and Teller? Are you sure about that? Because I'm pretty sure that a lot of humans believe that other humans could pull off some pretty amazing stuff. Spells on papyrus dating back to Ancient Greece and even Egypt survive today.



Parting the Red Sea was an act of God, not the humans. At no point did Moses claim to be responsible for that power. Yes I am sure about that. You never see a Faith Healer claim to regenerate legs or do anything supernatural beyond "cure" afflictions that can't be validated in the moment. Ancient people invoked magic and myth to explain things we now understand through science.  

Humans can't perform magic. Fictional trans or posthumans possibly, superhumans probably, but saying humans perform magic, is a misnomer on the level of saying a circle has corners. Humans are of the specific species homo sapiens, a species we know do not have magical capability. Period. Believing we do, doesn't make it so. Wizards in Harry Potter for example, are not human but transhuman. Especially considering wizardry is passed down genetically.


----------



## Mythopoet (Jul 27, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> Parting the Red Sea was an act of God, not the humans. At no point did Moses claim to be responsible for that power. Yes I am sure about that. You never see a Faith Healer claim to regenerate legs or do anything supernatural beyond "cure" afflictions that can't be validated in the moment. Ancient people invoked magic and myth to explain things we now understand through science.
> 
> Humans can't perform magic. Fictional trans or posthumans possibly, superhumans probably, but saying humans perform magic, is a misnomer. Humans are of the specific species homo sapiens, a species we know do not have magical capability. Period. Believing we do, doesn't make it so. Wizards in Harry Potter for example, are not human but transhuman. Especially considering wizardry is passed down genetically.



Dude, it's fine if that's the way you want to see things. but don't tell other people they have to limit their imagination based on your worldview. k?


----------



## Annoyingkid (Jul 27, 2017)

Mythopoet said:


> Dude, it's fine if that's the way you want to see things. but don't tell other people they have to limit their imagination based on your worldview. k?



No. You can't say rubbish like your humans have two hearts and five legs and can fly because it's fantasy and still call them human,because we know what a human is.


----------



## Holman (Jul 27, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> Humans can't perform magic. Fictional trans or posthumans possibly, superhumans probably, but saying humans perform magic, is a misnomer on the level of saying a circle has corners.



Depends on your world view - a circle is just one big corner that gets you back to where you started.


----------



## TheKillerBs (Jul 27, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> No. You can't say rubbish like your humans have two hearts and five legs and can fly because it's fantasy and still call them human,because we know what a human is.



The difference is that hearts and legs exist and magic doesn't. Also magic can be something that is used, not an inherent property of a person and we can't use it simply because it doesn't exist. There is no such thing as magic. Just like there is no such thing as dragons. Can humans eat dragons? Of course not, because dragons don't exist. But if they did, to say that eating dragons makes you not a human is pretty insulting actually.


----------



## TheKillerBs (Jul 27, 2017)

Holman said:


> Depends on your world view - a circle is just one big corner that gets you back to where you started.



The correct mathematical description would be that it's a polygon with infinite corners.


----------



## Steerpike (Jul 27, 2017)

In a world where magic exists as a tool to be drawn on, then there is no reason humans can't use it. It is a tool of the world around them. Saying they're no longer human is equivalent to saying, 5,000 years ago, that a human using a hammer isn't human anymore, because no humans in the real world used hammers at that time.

Putting a human into a world where there are hammers, guns, spaceships, or lasers, doesn't make her non-human as a result of her use of these tools. Likewise, neither does use of magic that exists as a tool available for use in a fantasy world.

If you focus solely on innate powers of some kind, rather than magic drawn from the world and used as a tool, then you can get to a point where arguably the person is something other than "human." But even then I think you have to go a fair way down that road. I wouldn't argue that Christopher Walken's character in Dead Zone is non-human because he has some innate ability for prescient dreams.


----------



## Steerpike (Jul 27, 2017)

Following up on the Dead Zone comment, I think it is important to consider the parameters the author has set for the world. In The Dead Zone, Stephen King clearly posits the existence of human beings that have clairvoyance. He could have cast the character as non-human, superhuman, or what have you, but he didn't. The character is simply a human with an ability that some people think occurs in people from time to time.


----------



## Vadosity (Aug 1, 2017)

The fact is that in Fantasy there is a long and well-used tradition of letting humans have powers through genetics, bonding to a magical beast or gaining magical abilities through training and spells. Arguing that this is wrong at this point in the game is like saying that all Fantasy authors should never have any magical races in their works because there never really existed. 

Whether or not RL humans are magical is beside the point, this is Fantasy! In _Fantasy a_ll you need to worry about is making sure that your worldbuilding is consistent and fits your story arc. Otherwise, you can go ahead and have flying people or pink elves. Maybe both! It's all good!


----------



## Michael K. Eidson (Aug 1, 2017)

TheKillerBs said:


> The difference is that hearts and legs exist and magic doesn't. ...



That may be your belief, but I can tell you that not all humans on Earth agree with your statement. Humans are a varied lot, and for a person to strap humanity with only his beliefs is to strap blinders on himself.


----------



## Annoyingkid (Aug 4, 2017)

Steerpike said:


> In a world where magic exists as a tool to be drawn on, then there is no reason humans can't use it. It is a tool of the world around them. Saying they're no longer human is equivalent to saying, 5,000 years ago, that a human using a hammer isn't human anymore, because no humans in the real world used hammers at that time.
> 
> Putting a human into a world where there are hammers, guns, spaceships, or lasers, doesn't make her non-human as a result of her use of these tools. Likewise, neither does use of magic that exists as a tool available for use in a fantasy world.
> 
> If you focus solely on innate powers of some kind, rather than magic drawn from the world and used as a tool, then you can get to a point where arguably the person is something other than "human." But even then I think you have to go a fair way down that road. I wouldn't argue that Christopher Walken's character in Dead Zone is non-human because he has some innate ability for prescient dreams.



Making and using a hammer doesn't change the fundamentals of the human condition.

The classification of species isn't what matters, it's the fact that human behaviour, humanity itself, is built on our limitations, vulnerabilities, uncertainties, fears, hopes and dreams etc within this mere flesh and bone body that can't do magic.

No matter how far technology has advanced, many of us are still have the same instincts our caveman ancestors did.

When you change the power scale, and give humans magic, the "human condition" of these people is no longer inherenetly anymore human than the elven condition. It's lost it's inherent humanity.  

So the argument, "if you make elves human like, you may as well just use humans" becomes incoherent. Because it now makes no difference which one you use. The audience won't relate to either one any better than the other.


----------



## Steerpike (Aug 4, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> Making and using a hammer doesn't change the fundamentals of the human condition.



Nor does using magic (at least not necessarily) in a world where magic is established as something that can be drawn upon as a tool. It's all down to how the writers sets up his world and the extent to which the magic is employed. Humans have a long history of supposing that certain people had access to magical abilities without considering them non-human.


----------



## Annoyingkid (Aug 4, 2017)

Steerpike said:


> Nor does using magic (at least not necessarily) in a world where magic is established as something that can be drawn upon as a tool. It's all down to how the writers sets up his world and the extent to which the magic is employed. Humans have a long history of supposing that certain people had access to magical abilities without considering them non-human.



That's because they always considered the witch or elder or whatever as a mere conduit or avatar of a supernatural source of these abilities. Chosen by demons or a deity or spirits. No one believed humans could do magic and the magic just came from the human.

I would also argue that as soon as you give humans a spark of magic, that does fundamentally change the human condition. Because once you open the floodgates that's it. There's no way to convince the audience that's it, that's all the magic they get and no more. Hell there's no way to convince the humans in the actual story of that. So it's basically the same as a fantasy race. The ONLY difference inherently between choosing an elf or a human is that with a human the audience knows  these are the tools the humans have, they don't get no transformation, no spritual power, no plot convenient rage power boosts or super strength, no legolas moves, none of that. The audience is essentially transported into the story and is encouraged to wonder how to solve the story with just the tools we have. An elf now, as a fantasy race, is basically open ended. There are no hard limits. 

Would it shock anyone if Legolas shot a lightning arrow? Wouldn't shock me. If Boromir did it, I'd be like What the f***! But if you remove the hard limits from the human, and previously had Boromir doing those Mario jumps like Legolas, if he then shot a magical lightning arrow, I won't have the same reaction, as the hard limitations are already broken. Therefore I can no longer say these people can solve the stories with abilities that I either have or could develop in the real world. And if you could no longer say that, then whether you use elves or humans becomes inconsequential. The inherent difference is gone.


----------



## Mythopoet (Aug 4, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> Would it shock anyone if Legolas shot a lightning arrow? Wouldn't shock me.



It should. That's not how Elven "magic" works. Especially for a Sindarin Elf.

It's not about Elves vs. Humans. It's about the nature of Elves and Humans within a specific world and how that world works.


----------



## Steerpike (Aug 4, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> That's because they always considered the witch or elder or whatever as a mere conduit or avatar of a supernatural source of these abilities. Chosen by demons or a deity or spirits. No one believed humans could do magic and the magic just came from the human.



Yes, and in my posts I said magic was available to to humans to be used as a tool. Same thing. They're a conduit for it, whether you posit gods, demons, some inherent property of the physical world, or what have you.


----------



## X Equestris (Aug 5, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> Parting the Red Sea was an act of God, not the humans. At no point did Moses claim to be responsible for that power. Yes I am sure about that. You never see a Faith Healer claim to regenerate legs or do anything supernatural beyond "cure" afflictions that can't be validated in the moment. Ancient people invoked magic and myth to explain things we now understand through science.
> 
> Humans can't perform magic. Fictional trans or posthumans possibly, superhumans probably, but saying humans perform magic, is a misnomer on the level of saying a circle has corners. Humans are of the specific species homo sapiens, a species we know do not have magical capability. Period. Believing we do, doesn't make it so. Wizards in Harry Potter for example, are not human but transhuman. Especially considering wizardry is passed down genetically.



In Judeo-Christian thought, magic is an act of higher powers.  Demons and the like, for example.  Miracles function the same way, except God is the source.  Point is, people are conduits.  Basically theurgy:

Theurgy - Wikipedia

If one's definition of magic were broader than the Judeo-Christian one, you could even term prayer an act of theurgy.  

Humans also only live on Earth as far as we know, yet I don't see many people who have a problem with them on secondary worlds.  There's a little thing called suspension of disbelief, and it's a big part of speculative fiction.


----------



## S.T. Ockenner (Feb 5, 2021)

Annoyingkid said:


> The quote was about hobbits, but he said ears "slightly pointed and elvish". Meaning slightly pointed = elvish.
> 
> This was confirmed when The Lost Road  and Other Writings was published in 1987. In the Etymologies under the first definition of ‘LAS’, which is the element in lasse meaning ‘leaf’, there is this note: “The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human]” (p.368).


He's inspired by the Norse, not Tolkien, so it does not really matter.


----------



## S.T. Ockenner (Feb 5, 2021)

Peregrine said:


> I am narrow-minded to think that its strange for humans to be wielders of magic.


1. It's your world, do what you want. If humans have magic, then whatever
2. Some humans still use magic...of a sort. Religious rituals, prayer, sometimes even spells...although that's not the same as fantasy magic, it absolutely qualifies as magic.


----------



## S.T. Ockenner (Feb 5, 2021)

Annoyingkid said:


> That's because they always considered the witch or elder or whatever as a mere conduit or avatar of a supernatural source of these abilities. Chosen by demons or a deity or spirits. No one believed humans could do magic and the magic just came from the human.


I'm leaving this thread now. You saying this is upsetting me.


----------



## Saigonnus (Feb 7, 2021)

For me, just to offer up my opinion. If your "Elves" are not physically different from Humans, and are only different because of their ability to use magic, then why not just use Humans that can use magic? This may have been mentioned, but too many readers have a certain mental image when you say "Elf" and it is probably hard to put those images aside. It might even break their suspension if you describe the person and they resemble a Human... yet you call them Elf. 

It makes me wonder if you have the "other races" present, Orcs or Trolls etc..

It also makes me curious where this "Humans can't use magic" restriction is coming from?

For me at least, it seems logically, if a world evolved with magic, i.e. part of the natural ecosystem etc of the world, than many creatures would be able to use it, not just "one race because I said so." If that is the case, then you could just differentiate "how" they use magic (one uses runic magic, another elemental magic, another still uses ones' own life force)... or what magic they can do that the other races can't.

I actually have been world-building a "Humans-only" story, without any of the traditional "fantasy races" (though some of the "creatures" have been reskinned). I believe there is enough diversity just among Humans that you don't need anything else. And yes, they can use magic.


----------



## Queshire (Feb 8, 2021)

Whelp. I doubt you'll get a reply from the original poster considering that before S.T. the most recent post was from 2017, but that doesn't mean that the rest of us can't talk.

I've toyed with the idea of a sci fi colony ship arriving at the world they plan to set up a colony at only to find out that the world is a medieval fantasy type place. In that case the only humans are the colonists.  Elves would fill their role on the planet.


----------



## SinghSong (Feb 8, 2021)

Queshire said:


> Whelp. I doubt you'll get a reply from the original poster considering that before S.T. the most recent post was from 2017, but that doesn't mean that the rest of us can't talk.
> 
> I've toyed with the idea of a sci fi colony ship arriving at the world they plan to set up a colony at only to find out that the world is a medieval fantasy type place. In that case the only humans are the colonists.  Elves would fill their role on the planet.


So basically Cameron's Avatar, just without the tails or the magical planetary hive-mind, and a slightly higher native tech development level?


----------



## Queshire (Feb 8, 2021)

SinghSong said:


> So basically Cameron's Avatar, just without the tails or the magical planetary hive-mind, and a slightly higher native tech development level?


 Gak! Hiss, no. Them's fighting words. >.<

(Uh, at work atm so will edit this when I can with more details.)


----------



## SinghSong (Feb 8, 2021)

Queshire said:


> Gak! Hiss, no. Them's fighting words. >.<
> 
> (Uh, at work atm so will edit this when I can with more details.)


You have to admit though, his Na'vi were totally just blue-skinned forest _neko_-elves...


----------



## S.T. Ockenner (Feb 8, 2021)

If magic is a natural part of the world they are in, then it would actually make sense for humans to use magic. They wouldn't generate it, but they could channel it.


----------



## Toby Johnson (Feb 8, 2021)

thats great, i told a story of dwarves in a mine, no humans, and i did another book which was all dragons instead of humans. do what you want its fantasy


----------

