# college and you know...stuff



## DragonOfTheAerie (Mar 25, 2019)

Right now my college options are 

1. go to the place i actually want to go to and take out like $15k a year in loans
2. go to the place i am totally apathetic about and do not want to go to and take out somewhat less in loans 

i'm still applying to places with late deadlines but I'm not super hopeful. 

Basically all my interests are the college degree type, I plan on going into graduate school, and basically i can't see myself NOT going to college but also everyone is like STUDENT LOANS WILL RUIN YOUR LIFE and i actually have several conflicting ideas of what i want to actually study in college. My major is declared as creative writing on basically all the documents because i'm trying to hold onto that sweet sweet scholarship cash but I'm probably going to end up in history or psychology. My future is probably teaching at a university or something. *shrug.* 

Am I even a super academic *person*?


----------



## Devor (Mar 25, 2019)

In all likelihood you'll adapt fine to either choice.  15k a year isn't as bad as some others (my student loans were much higher).  And a boring college won't be boring once it's life.  And any college is going to have an ample array of opportunities available to you.

This is one of those moments in your life where you get to decide what's more important to you. Fiscal restraint is nothing to laugh at, and neither are all the things you care about in your dream college.  Then again, how well can you know either choice from here?

You get to decide what's important to you, and the only wrong answer is the one where you don't know yourself well enough to make the right call, or you let outside pressures sway you in the wrong direction. But I sure couldn't tell you which one that is.


----------



## Annoyingkid (Mar 26, 2019)

I wanted to learn creative writing, I wouldn't go to college at all. I'd save my money and find a writing group. History's a useless degree and psychology is only useful if you have that passion to help people with mental health. To teach at Uni, you'd likely need a PHD. And as far as I know, these professors aren't earning that much.  American college is currently a scam unless you're studying a form of engineering (computer/mechanical/chemical etc) or accounting.


----------



## CupofJoe (Mar 26, 2019)

I'd never encourage you to do do Psychology [ro any course] if you weren't sure about it [and anyway I hated the subject], but Psychology can lead you to many different areas other than just Mental Health. 
Market Research, Architecture, Politics, Environmental issues, Neuroscience, Animal behaviour, Law Enforcement, even Stock Market analysis all have their Psychologist. Even the Armed Forces and Intelligence Services have their share of Psychologists. 
And I have a soft spot for any History degree. I really enjoyed mine but to be fair I haven't used much/any of what I learned since then.
And yes. DON'T become an academic if you want to be rich. The teaching is harder than it looks and the hours much longer than you'd think. And then you have to do research and get published.
I know the States are BIG compared to the UK, so it might not be practical, but of the places with the course you want, go to the campuses [during term time] and see what they are like when you are not on the guided tour.
You can read a brochure, take a 3D VR tour or visit on an Open Day, but seeing, smelling, feeling the places for yourself is so much better.


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie (Mar 26, 2019)

Annoyingkid said:


> I wanted to learn creative writing, I wouldn't go to college at all. I'd save my money and find a writing group. History's a useless degree and psychology is only useful if you have that passion to help people with mental health. To teach at Uni, you'd likely need a PHD. And as far as I know, these professors aren't earning that much.  American college is currently a scam unless you're studying a form of engineering (computer/mechanical/chemical etc) or accounting.



Why not pursue a PHD? I don’t have much sanity or sleep schedule to start with anyway lmao. It’s not wealth, but you can make a reasonably comfortable living *shrug*


----------



## Annoyingkid (Mar 26, 2019)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Why not pursue a PHD? I don’t have much sanity or sleep schedule to start with anyway lmao. It’s not wealth, but you can make a reasonably comfortable living *shrug*



Average student takes 8 years to get through a PHD. 15k x 8 is $120,000 debt. That's also 8 years where you're studying, so aren't earning a wage. 

The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the average salary of a University Professor was *$75,430* annually as of May 2016. The lowest-paid 10 percent of all University Professors earn less than $38,290, while the highest-paid 10 percent are paid more than *$168,270* per year. 

Assuming you're in the middle, you're proably looking at another 3 years to pay all that off. But that's the best case scenario, as there are more qualified applicants than there are full-time, college-level teaching positions. The worst case - and very possible scenario is you can't find a position and are stuck earning less. The problem is America has massively inflated student fees because of government subsidies. 
Companies like Google, Apple, IBM, Bank of America no longer require that applicants have a college degree. Neither do companies like Costco, Whole Foods, Publix, Chipotle, Home Depot and so on. Imho, you're much better off getting a job at a company and trying to rise to  management, earning the whole time, and trying to pursue your novels on the side. Instead of going all in on a PHD  with Liberal Arts or a soft science when the college bubble is set to burst anyway.


----------



## Chessie2 (Mar 26, 2019)

Annoyingkid said:


> Average student takes 8 years to get through a PHD. 15k x 8 is $120,000 debt. That's also 8 years where you're studying, so aren't earning a wage.
> 
> The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the average salary of a University Professor was *$75,430* annually as of May 2016. The lowest-paid 10 percent of all University Professors earn less than $38,290, while the highest-paid 10 percent are paid more than *$168,270* per year.
> 
> ...


I wasn't going to comment on this thread but given your response, I have to say that I 100% agree with this. As someone who spent 6 years in school for a dual major of Poli Sci/Biology, and graduated with honors thinking that it was the best thing for me, I can truly say that 10+ years later I am still paying off my student loans. Almost done though, which is good. I worked most of my time in school as a barista/waitress, and even after graduation I worked in my field for some years and STILL worked in restaurants. I make today, working at a veterinary clinic (my dream job), about HALF of what I made as a waitress. And I make reasonably good money. I wish to God that I would not have gone to school because I'm back in it to take my technician's license, which should have been what I did from the beginning instead of listening to my parents and teachers telling me I needed a Biology degree. I could have been writing novels way more years before I actually started and had gotten my tech license years ago.

Point of the story from someone who's been there: college will put you in debt. Tech school, where you get licensed to be a dental hygienist or some sort of technical work, is a better option than a 4 year degree. Sure, go into college for the esteem and debt. You can learn to write novels without needing a creative writing degree where they will teach you all the ways to write perfectly without telling a good story. You're young and you're going to make mistakes in your life. There's no way to adult perfectly. I don't recommend college to teens anymore, not even my own son. Instead, I encourage him to pursue what he loves (building things, he's very mechanically minded like his father) and to spend the next few years getting a feel for the type of job he might like to do when he grows up. Then, when he grows up, he will have learned how to be disciplined enough to pursue that job, enter that working field, and continue education when the need arises. Hard work will you get you farther in life than a degree. Just my 2 cents.

EDIT: to add that college is a full time job in its own right. You will be taking, depending on the institution you choose, anywhere between 12-16 credits to be full time and keep your scholarships/financial aid. You have to get excellent grades in order to keep that aid. Then, you have to work. Rare were the kids in my Biology program who got excellent grades while working full time. All the ones who went to medical school didn't work at all. You have tests, pop quizzes, homework, papers, etc...in classes you like and don't like. You have to balance all of this along with lectures, social activities, volunteering, writing novels, having a life.

Then, if you add work on top of that, you have even less time to write and to have a social life which is so important. There are only 24 hours in a day and you will spend most of those studying otherwise you are doing yourself a disservice. Now, how are you going to support yourself if you're in school? Live at home? For how long? If you move out on your own, there's rent to pay, food to put in the fridge, housework that needs to be done, laundry, gas to put in the car, cooking that needs to be prepared, car registration and the little things in life like setting up light and gas accounts for your apartment. What about friends? Time to eat and drink and socialize? What about keeping your body healthy by exercising and sleeping right? There is SO much to life outside of school and work that you'll have to question how you'll manage it all.

EDIT 2: I by no means am trying to dissuade you, just trying to get you to see a bit more what you might be facing as a young adult fresh out of the nest.


----------



## Devor (Mar 26, 2019)

Are we really taking this highly personal thread about one person's future into a debate about the merits of college?  I mean, especially considering that DragonoftheAerie is nowhere near ready to actually decide on a phd, some of this feels inappropriate to the topic, to me.

If I were going back to my high school self to reconsider my life around what decision to make based getting the best chance of _becoming a fantasy writer_, I would say to go to the most ambitious school you can, to major in business and marketing, to spend your free time ignoring the business stuff to buddy up to the performance arts kids and study their personalities, to debate philosophy and religion and politics on friendly terms with as many different kinds of people as you can (and I mean debate; try to challenge every opinion in some way, and if they get mad stop, you've done something wrong), to read a lot of personal memoirs and crazy-sounding historical narratives, and to ask just about everyone the question, "How did you know you were ready for that?"

Some of this I did.  Some of this I didn't.  And I'm very much at a place where I feel the only thing holding me back is .... Anxiety? Focus? Ethic?  Something like that, but certainly not my background or the abilities it's helped me to develop.

College is rapidly becoming a requirement for survival in the modern age.  Why that is, whether it should be, and if the expense really warrants the modern university - that's all besides the point.  Whatever degree you get you almost certainly won't use in life.  Even if you became an engineer, you'd probably use about 5% of your education in any given job.  Even with something like programming, you'll learn the language on the job more than in a course, and the university will consider those courses their bottom priority because learning to code doesn't require collegiate-level thinking.

The point of college isn't the textbook.  It's the pressure.  It's the people.  And it's the exposure.  If you want to be a writer, the critique groups can wait.  You're going to need all of these things first to write.


----------



## pmmg (Mar 26, 2019)

College is overrated IMO, but its never bad to have a degree. And I feel I share Annoying Kids attitudes on this. If I was after creative writing, I would not think college the best place to be either. And I have seen the financial arguments many times. One argument that comes up is 'If I was to invest all my college tuition into retirement instead, I would actually end up wealthier in 40 years for having done so." That is probably true....but not for everyone. Some get a little further ahead.

Truth is, $15k seems like a lot now, but in the span of 40 years...pffft. Wont even miss it. Make the life you want.


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie (Mar 26, 2019)

I’m not debating with myself whether or not I should go to college at all. I’ve considered and thought about all of these things. There’s no question whether or not I’m going to college. For the record: I have autism. I’m somewhat limited in my job options and absolutely would not be able to work full time in a high stress environment. Waitressing or being a cashier at Walmart and saving money, if it’s an option at all, would be a very unhealthy one. As for companies like Google, I have the tech savviness of a rock. 

School #1 is in fact a work college, and while the hours are not much, I’ll graduate with work experience. 

It’s not all about the degree either. I live in a town that’s basically the butt crack of the country, sheltered, almost no relationships, very little experience with people who grew up different than me. Everyone I knew in high school has disappeared from my life save for like one person. I have almost no contacts. This place is a dead end and I very desperately want to leave and get life experience of any kind at all.


----------



## pmmg (Mar 26, 2019)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Right now my college options are
> 
> 1. go to the place i actually want to go to and take out like $15k a year in loans
> 2. go to the place i am totally apathetic about and do not want to go to and take out somewhat less in loans
> ...



Well, you say your options are 1 and 2, are there any other options? If not, I would suggest 1.

Student loans will not ruin your life. There is a whole lot of space between left college and where you end up 40 years. That will have far more impact on what did or did not ruin your life. People do it, and it works out for them.

Someone asked 'Why are we discussion the merits of going to college?', well...cause I don't really except option 1 and 2. There are a lot of ways to get to a lot of life experiences and a change of scenery. But, if those are the choices, I would not fear 1.


----------



## Ban (Mar 26, 2019)

If you're feeling particularly adventurous you could even apply to universities outside of the US. Many english language universities in the EU are cheaper than those in the US, even if you aren't eligible for national funding.

I'm not telling you to do it, my unadventurous ass couldn't even leave my province , I just want you to know that the possibility is there. I know that the American students I've met have loved it here.


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie (Mar 26, 2019)

pmmg said:


> Well, you say your options are 1 and 2, are there any other options? If not, I would suggest 1.
> 
> Student loans will not ruin your life. There is a whole lot of space between left college and where you end up 40 years. That will have far more impact on what did or did not ruin your life. People do it, and it works out for them.
> 
> Someone asked 'Why are we discussion the merits of going to college?', well...cause I don't really except option 1 and 2. There are a lot of ways to get to a lot of life experiences and a change of scenery. But, if those are the choices, I would not fear 1.



College isn’t right for many people. I’m in general academically gifted (I mean...that’s what they tell me) and basically all of the careers besides “writer” that appeal to me at all, and that I could pursue without undue self destruction, require a college degree. 

I’m bad at public places and socializing, and people find me annoying, off-putting or weird. I really don’t want to throw myself to the wolves by relying on stuff other than academic prowess for my entire future, because I don’t have a lot of abilities outside of being Really Smart According To These Numbers. I spent high school being the Half Tolerated Trick Pony who is too weird to be pleasurable to interact with, but the moment you want an essay revised or a political/ideological debate won...


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie (Mar 26, 2019)

As for making a lot of money, I really don’t care what I make as long as I can eat a balanced diet and occasionally buy books.


----------



## Svrtnsse (Mar 26, 2019)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> As for making a lot of money, I really don’t care what I make as long as I can eat a balanced diet and occasionally buy books.


If you read ebooks, that's not a major expense - or doesn't need to be.


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie (Mar 26, 2019)

Svrtnsse said:


> If you read ebooks, that's not a major expense - or doesn't need to be.


 I like to buy them thrift/used.


----------



## pmmg (Mar 26, 2019)

I guess I would say it this way... College is about teaching you to stand on the shoulders of giants, how to cite your work, and join in some type of collegiate body which is attempting to add to the great knowledge base of humanity. It does not favor individual effort, and does not adapt well to creativity. In truth, college is really about getting to a place to be someone else's employee. 

If you want to pursue a creative endeavor, such as writing, a creative writing degree will look good in your bio, but the process of college is more likely to hold you back than set your free. If you want to be creative, you don't need anyone's certification or rubber stamp. Your work will speak for itself. So, if that is what you want and you really want an education, I would suggest looking for a school of creative arts, or just surround yourself with other creative and successful people. I would find that a more useful path. Not saying it cant happen, just that college is kind of like a place full of round holes, and it does not really like square pegs.

If you want worldly life experience, nothing beats the navy... so, option 1 and option 2 are not really the whole set. But if they are what you have already decided on, don't be scared of college debt. There are lot of ways to pay for debt.


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie (Mar 26, 2019)

pmmg said:


> I guess I would say it this way... College is about teaching you to stand on the shoulders of giants, how to cite your work, and join in some type of collegiate body which is attempting to add to the great knowledge base of humanity. It does not favor individual effort, and does not adapt well to creativity. In truth, college is really about getting to a place to be someone else's employee.
> 
> If you want to pursue a creative endeavor, such as writing, a creative writing degree will look good in your bio, but the process of college is more likely to hold you back than set your free. If you want to be creative, you don't need anyone's certification or rubber stamp. Your work will speak for itself. So, if that is what you want and you really want an education, I would suggest looking for a school of creative arts, or just surround yourself with other creative and successful people. I would find that a more useful path. Not saying it cant happen, just that college is kind of like a place full of round holes, and it does not really like square pegs.
> 
> If you want worldly life experience, nothing beats the navy... so, option 1 and option 2 are not really the whole set. But if they are what you have already decided on, don't be scared of college debt. There are lot of ways to pay for debt.



In all honesty the only reason I'm declaring creative writing as a major is the scholarships I have in it. But I can switch to minor and retain the scholarships.


----------



## Devor (Mar 26, 2019)

pmmg said:


> I guess I would say it this way... College is about teaching you to stand on the shoulders of giants, how to cite your work, and join in some type of collegiate body which is attempting to add to the great knowledge base of humanity. It does not favor individual effort, and does not adapt well to creativity. In truth, college is really about getting to a place to be someone else's employee.



I feel like I could rip this statement to shreds in ways that are both pro and against college.  Like, it does a bad job actually prepping you for most careers, but a pretty good job at presenting opportunities and connecting you with capable individuals, although so much depends on the college and the courses you take.  From a practical standpoint, I would say that our high school system and the blue collar segments of our economy are fairly broken if we feel that bloody everyone needs to go to college to survive nowadays, which is a shame.  But I do feel college does a very good job at what the model was designed to do, which isn't really what our society is attempting to use it for.




> If you want to pursue a creative endeavor, such as writing, a creative writing degree will look good in your bio, but the process of college is more likely to hold you back than set your free. If you want to be creative, you don't need anyone's certification or rubber stamp. Your work will speak for itself. So, if that is what you want and you really want an education, I would suggest looking for a school of creative arts, or just surround yourself with other creative and successful people. I would find that a more useful path. Not saying it cant happen, just that college is kind of like a place full of round holes, and it does not really like square pegs.



Insomuch as you're talking about a creative writing degree, I completely agree.  Based on my readings on the subject, a creative's work goes through phases, and refinement is the _second_ phase.  If you haven't done your exploration and discovery phase, the kind of materials you learn in a creative writing degree will end up defining and constraining your vision of what you can do in the field.  It's not always that simple, and I wouldn't condemn the efforts of anyone who's been through those courses (they do offer lots of benefits, and the challenges can be overcome).  But in general, I mean, I wouldn't recommend it as a major for undergrad, even if you're pursuing it as a career.

Insomuch as you're talking about college in general, I dunno, what college did you go to?  I never felt that creativity was stifled at all.




> If you want worldly life experience, nothing beats the navy... so, option 1 and option 2 are not really the whole set. But if they are what you have already decided on, don't be scared of college debt. There are lot of ways to pay for debt.



The navy's a good choice.  More people should really consider it.


----------



## skip.knox (Mar 27, 2019)

There's just no way to know. I agree with others who say don't worry too awfully much about the debt, though you should certainly do what you can to mitigate it (e.g, working while an undergrad, maybe taking fewer courses and taking a year or two longer). Grad school is going to be even more expensive. 

But which school? I went to Portland Community College for two years, then Boise State College that turned into Boise State University just before I graduated. Then University of Utah for a Master's degree and then University of Massachusetts at Amherst for the PhD. In each place there were great professors (and some stinkers), good courses (and bad). The only really objective differences were two. One, the library. and PCC the library was entirely contained in a single room. BSU was two whole floors and had its own building. Utah had books *in other languages!* (Skip scrambles back and signs up for Latin). And the library at UMass was 28 stories tall with an entire floor just for European history. It was heaven. That really was significant.

The other big difference was the town. You're going to college, sure, but you're also living in a place. The climate, the amenities, the proximity of other cities, all that figures. Utah was a great place to be with a young family; we lived in student family housing at the foot of the Wasatch range. Spectacular. Amherst was lousy for a young family--it was a town of 5,000 with a university of 30,000 plus Amherst College with another 10,000. Great place if you're twenty-two. If you can, go physically visit the places under consideration. Visit the English department.

In the end, go with whatever feels right. Don't worry about making the "best" decision. Do all the rational evaluation, but if there's no clear winner, go with your gut. You can always switch schools, usually with little loss of momentum, at least at the undergraduate level.

It's heartening to me to hear someone say they want to go to college because they want to learn. Too many view it as a path to a profession, which is appropriate for only a handful of careers. For the most part, what you learn in college doesn't lead directly or certainly to employment. And, as others have pointed out, you'll not likely earn back your investment any time soon. 

Someone on the thread said history is a useless degree, and of course I can't let that slide by without comment. I agree it's useless. For thirty-five years I told my students that very thing. History doesn't have uses. It has value. Much the same can be said for the other humanities. We don't study them because career opportunities, we study literature and history and the arts because they add value to life. Some want to put a price tag on that, and sure, okay. I got a PhD in early modern European history and wound up with a career in computers (okay, and adjunct history prof). But I'm glad I got the advanced degree and my life has been richer for it. And yeah, it took me almost fifteen years to pay off the student loans, and we were poor for a long time. 

Your mileage will almost certainly vary. All best wishes.


----------



## James Morton (Mar 30, 2019)

If you want worldly life experience, nothing beats the navy... so, option 1 and option 2 are not really the whole set. But if they are what you have already decided on, don't be scared of college debt.


----------

