# How much is it ok to "borrow" from an established universe?



## hots_towel (Nov 8, 2013)

So a friend and I are co-writing a comic book. We were discussing a certain kind of magic and how it works, and the ideas were flowing so well. Everything made so much sense and we were so excited. Then, it hit me. The reason everything fit so well and sounded so good was because we basically just described "the Force" from star wars. 

Since then we have been working hard on how to distinguish this piece of the story from the force, but its hard work. Even after revising it, it has that vibe that makes you think of the force when you understand the basic elements of how our form of magic works. 

So I ask, how much is it ok to borrow. I know theres no official scale of measuring what is too much or too little, but if you guys could ive me some examples if your stories or others when there are similarities that no one seems to notice/care about i would greatly appreciate it


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## Malik (Nov 8, 2013)

The Force has its roots in Eastern mysticism. I've read that Lucas based the Jedi off of the Samurai. 

An energy field greater than all of us that makes the universe "work" is not an original idea. It is present in modern religions as Chi, Gaia, and The Holy Spirit. Most ancient civilizations -- and even "un-civilizations" like the American Indians -- believed on the existence of usable energies superior to those of the everyday world.

Call it something else and roll with it. You're good.


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## GeekDavid (Nov 8, 2013)

I think this is the sort of question our resident copyright lawyer should weigh in on.

Paging Steerpike... please pick up the white courtesy phone...


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## hots_towel (Nov 8, 2013)

thanks for the replies guys. very informative, and it looks like i have some homework to do haha


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## Saigonnus (Nov 8, 2013)

hots_towel said:


> The reason everything fit so well and sounded so good was because we basically just described "the Force" from star wars.



I think as long as you don't electrocute people with force lightning, choke people merely by flexing you hand or throw things across the room to collide with a person, you'll be fine.


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## Steerpike (Nov 8, 2013)

If you call it "The Force," I suppose you're closer to having a problem. Kind of a difficult think for Lucas Arts/Disney to protect, though you wouldn't want to spend the money fighting them if they were ticked. 

I can't think of any legal reason you couldn't have a magic system that works like the force. Legalities aside, you might have readers going "Wait a minute, this is The Force!"


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## Svrtnsse (Nov 8, 2013)

One of my personal favourite quotes on these matters is: "Talent borrows, genius steals."
The origin of the quote is uncertain (google it).

To me, it basically means that it's okay to use the ideas of others, as long as you do it well.


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## A. E. Lowan (Nov 8, 2013)

When it comes to certain basic concepts of magic being a universal flow of energy, be it the Force or chi or what-have-you, the concept can't be copywrited (Steer, please correct me if I'm wrong here), only the name you use for it.  In our books we have characters throwing rocks and using magic to choke people - might even get around to throwing lightening, I'm not sure yet but I'm not writing it off just because the character in question has actually SEEN Star Wars (we write urban fantasy).  We just call it magic and go on with our day.  You call your system whatever you want to and make it your own.  You're not trying to re-write Star Wars.


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## Malik (Nov 8, 2013)

A. E. Lowan said:


> You're not trying to re-write Star Wars.



Actually, go ahead and re-write episodes I, II, and III. No one will mind.


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## GeekDavid (Nov 8, 2013)

Malik said:


> Actually, go ahead and re-write episodes I, II, and III. No one will mind.



Except Jar Jar's agent.


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## BWFoster78 (Nov 9, 2013)

Svrtnsse said:


> One of my personal favourite quotes on these matters is: "Talent borrows, genius steals."
> The origin of the quote is uncertain (google it).
> 
> To me, it basically means that it's okay to use the ideas of others, as long as you do it well.



Svrtnsse, such a missed opportunity...

You could have written: 

I came up with this quote, "Talent borrows; genius steals."

I'm a genius.

Just a thought...


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## A. E. Lowan (Nov 9, 2013)

Malik said:


> Actually, go ahead and re-write episodes I, II, and III. No one will mind.



Or at least could someone have beaten Lucas about the head and shoulders with a good editor?  Somebody to just say, "No, stop, you're being stupid?"  Srsly.  /end rant


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## wordwalker (Nov 9, 2013)

Besides, everyone knows Lucas stole the idea of telekinesis from Stephen King and _Carrie_. --No, he probably didn't exactly, but TK has been a major presence in fantastic fiction since about that time (and before then too, of course). 

Mostly this is the standard advice that you should only worry a little about being "unoriginal" and more about the story succeeding on its own. But in particular, I'd say you might emphasize the differences in not what your magic does but in what people do to make it happen and how that might limit it. Because the former is hard to find new things for, but the latter isn't. (Limits especially are what Sanderson's Second Law says is the most fun.)

Just look at _Avatar_. People were saying "Oh God, not another 4 Elements concept!" twenty years before the show came out (I've got that in writing in a comics lettercol), but tying bending to martial arts kata made it distinctive. At least, different enough when the story and the world just plain worked.


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## GeekDavid (Nov 9, 2013)

wordwalker said:


> Besides, everyone knows Lucas stole the idea of telekinesis from Stephen King and _Carrie_. --No, he probably didn't exactly, but TK has been a major presence in fantastic fiction since about that time (and before then too, of course).



He also stole large parts of the story from Celtic mythology. For example, the warrior with the artificial hand is from Nuada Airgetlam (literally, Nuada silver hand/arm) and the bad guy being related to the good guy is eerily similar to the Balor story, where Balor was to be defeated by his grandson (so Lucas made it his son instead of his grandson).

I guess none of the Celtic gods had copyrighted their ideas. Maybe they got their revenge by making Episodes 1, 2, and 3 suck.


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## A. E. Lowan (Nov 10, 2013)

GeekDavid said:


> He also stole large parts of the story from Celtic mythology. For example, the warrior with the artificial hand is from Nuada Airgetlam (literally, Nuada silver hand/arm) and the bad guy being related to the good guy is eerily similar to the Balor story, where Balor was to be defeated by his grandson (so Lucas made it his son instead of his grandson).
> 
> I guess none of the Celtic gods had copyrighted their ideas. Maybe they got their revenge by making Episodes 1, 2, and 3 suck.



Or, we could go the Arthuriana route.  King Arthur, granted the good guy here, was defeated by his son Mordred.  If I turn around to my reference library I could probably pull out a dozen bad guy related to the good guy stories, easy.  And so much more... myth and legend feed our modern story machines, creating a modern mythos, just as they should.

Like I'm always saying, it's ALL in the execution.


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## GeekDavid (Nov 10, 2013)

A. E. Lowan said:


> Or, we could go the Arthuriana route.  King Arthur, granted the good guy here, was defeated by his son Mordred.  If I turn around to my reference library I could probably pull out a dozen bad guy related to the good guy stories, easy.  And so much more... myth and legend feed our modern story machines, creating a modern mythos, just as they should.
> 
> Like I'm always saying, it's ALL in the execution.



Another place Lucas borrowed from was apparently Isaac Asimov. The vision of Coruscant as a single world-spanning city was first proposed (as far as I can find) by Asimov for his capital world Trantor in _Foundation_ which was published in 1951.

I guess there are truly no new stories under the sun, just new storytellers.


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## oyler44 (Nov 11, 2013)

Magic itself is an entity that is used to so many books and in so many forms it is hard NOT to use an idea twice. Honestly the way the Force is described is the world is made up of small particles called midiclorians (Spelling sucks) and that everything is made up of them. This directly ties to nearly EVERY style of writing featuring "Wild Magic" or "Magic of the Earth". On top of that, the ability to manipulate the particles or matter in general is a direct representation of Psionic energy manipulating which alot of people believe is real. The combination of those 2 things is what Lucas dreamed up as the force. Utilizing these 2 things together wouldn't be copyrighting unless you called it the force and made Vader choke people. They are so commonly themed in texts these days that if someone actually accused you of copyrighting, you would have rights to laugh it off.


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## Malik (Nov 11, 2013)

In an email this morning one of my beta readers told me, "I loved it. A Connecticut Yankee in Westeros." 

I don't take anything from Martin's universe but he also has a gritty, tough world with low magic, heartless rulers, and a dynamic geopolitical situation. 

There is nothing new. Write what you write and write it as well as you can. Then go back and write it better.


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## ecdavis (Nov 11, 2013)

I'd just use your magic system and, as one said here, don't do any 'Star Wars' type stunts or call it 'The Force'.   It would seem logical to have a magic system like that, though many cultures thought that magic focused through an object or objects.   Nature, trees, the Pharaoh, chanting certain holy words, and so forth.   I always felt that Star Wars was more of a hybrid of fantasy and science fiction.   But think back to Mr. Spock -- he had various things he could do with his mind and by putting fingers on the side of heads.   Sure, now we just think 'big deal, he's a psionic', but back in the late 60s it seemed really cool.   

He was a really magical kind of a guy: his mother with blood iron based, his father with blood copper based ('Green blood') yet they conceived him.   Not too scientific there.

As for Star Wars, I liked Episode 1 (except Jar Jar of course)  but not 2 and 3.   I'm not too happy with Disney owning the rights now -- I keep wondering if now that Princess Leia is a Disney Princess if we'll see her at Disney World with the others...


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## wordwalker (Nov 12, 2013)

Leia was always a Disney girl. That wasn't a hairdo on the sides of her head, it was Minnie Mouse ears folded down.


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## Quillstine (Nov 12, 2013)

ecdavis said:


> I always felt that Star Wars was more of a hybrid of fantasy and science fiction.



I try not banter about Star Wars to often, I was a Trekkie kid from the first time I heard those iconic words, "Beam me up Scottie". Don't get me wrong, I love Star Wars, but I'm also just going to be honest and say, my favorite Star Wars "movies" starred Peter Griffin!  Still, seeing as it ties in so nicely to the topic of the thread, I could not agree more more with ecdavis. Star Wars always had a distinctly fantasy feel to it, more so than Sci-Fi. Which makes sense, as Lucas has openly admitted to referencing "The Hero With A Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell (Which on a side note is an interesting read, as is anything you can get your hands on by Campbell) as he wrote the script. Campbell's book basically expands on Adolph Bastian idea that myths from all over the world seem to be built from the same "elementary ideas." ~ see were this is going!
I myself have suffered the daunting plagiarism bug, and now I have a folder full of half finished stories that succumbed to that disease. So often I would be writing an idea, then find another book with exact same concept, _after_ the fact! Or another really big one for me, is knowing an idea would work so well in a story, but hoarding it because I _also_ want to use in another story idea I have brewing.
Now, before I write I always say to myself "Original is not new, it's old re-imagined and personalized."


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## A. E. Lowan (Nov 12, 2013)

I can't help myself...

Tom Lehrer - Lobachevsky - YouTube

The song actually starts at 1:15, but the wind up is funny.  This is actually about academic plagiarism, by which I mean academics plagiarizing each other's work in "publish or perish" environments, but it's too good to not include here.


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## Richard Sutton (Nov 12, 2013)

I've always seen the border between scifi and fantasy as a wide demilitarized zone filled with the craters made by poorly conceived material falling at high speed. I'm wondering which hook, among all the many devices writers use, pulls you into a new world construct best? Place and character names? Snippets of language? Descriptive locale narrative? Appropriated iconic stories (mentioned several times in postings)? The ways the construct is recognizable?


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## Richard Sutton (Nov 12, 2013)

$3000 a year for teaching back in the day? A gold mine! Why didn't I think of that, anyway?

Lehrer's work is a treasure. Thanks for posting it and bringing it all back in a geeky, sloppy landslide...>sniff!<


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## Addison (Nov 12, 2013)

In this literary time, with all the great works that have built the foundation, it will be rare for someone to pick up a book and read a magic or power without thinking, "Oh this is like the Force from Star Wars." or "Wow, like the One Ring." But of course, if the book is on the store shelf and not in a court for plagiarism, then it's good. The point is that we grew up on Star Wars, LotR, Harry Potter and so many others so they contribute to our story. Whether it's conscious or sub-conscious. But in our own story and idea we make it different, we shape it to our own way. If you worry so much about distinguishing it you could find yourself writing more about the magic than the story itself-losing the reader. Just cover the basics: the source of the magic, the cost, the difficulty and the scarcity and rules of consistency. Do that and you'll be set.


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## GeekDavid (Nov 12, 2013)

Addison said:


> In this literary time, with all the great works that have built the foundation, it will be rare for someone to pick up a book and read a magic or power without thinking, "Oh this is like the Force from Star Wars." or "Wow, like the One Ring." But of course, if the book is on the store shelf and not in a court for plagiarism, then it's good. The point is that we grew up on Star Wars, LotR, Harry Potter and so many others so they contribute to our story. Whether it's conscious or sub-conscious. But in our own story and idea we make it different, we shape it to our own way. If you worry so much about distinguishing it you could find yourself writing more about the magic than the story itself-losing the reader. Just cover the basics: the source of the magic, the cost, the difficulty and the scarcity and rules of consistency. Do that and you'll be set.



Looks like a good place to bust out one of my favorite CS Lewis quotes:



> Even in literature and art, no man who bothers about originality will ever be original: whereas if you simply try to tell the truth (without caring twopence how often it has been told before) you will, nine times out of ten, become original without ever having noticed it.


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## Steerpike (Nov 12, 2013)

I wouldn't call Star Wars a hybrid. It's straight up fantasy in space, in my view. I don't see any real science fiction element to it.


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## Malik (Nov 12, 2013)

I always viewed Star Wars -- Episode IV, anyway -- as a Western, just set in space.


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## GeekDavid (Nov 12, 2013)

Malik said:


> I always viewed Star Wars -- Episode IV, anyway -- as a Western, just set in space.



Ironically, when Star Trek was first pitched, it was described as "Wagon Train to the stars," using a popular Western of the time to sell the concept.


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## Shadowfirelance (Nov 16, 2013)

I personally prefer to adapt, or to modify enough from one thing, to make it my own. Eventually, after enough changes and modifications, it becomes personal, and, dare I say, Unique.

Just my personal tastes, however.


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## A. E. Lowan (Nov 16, 2013)

Shadowfirelance said:


> I personally prefer to adapt, or to modify enough from one thing, to make it my own. Eventually, after enough changes and modifications, it becomes personal, and, dare I say, Unique.
> 
> Just my personal tastes, however.



Not just personal taste.  That tends to be how things are done, consciously or not.  We borrow from here, nip from there, and add that particular flavor that makes it "unique."  It's how myths have been created and carried on down the millennium, from the earliest heroes to Harry Potter.  It's just how humanity tells stories.  I know I've said it a million times, and they're eventually going to put in on my urn, but what makes it unique to the writer is _the execution_.  That's what we're all here for, folks.


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## Dragoncat (Dec 3, 2013)

Yeah, call it something else and add things to it/change things, that way you won't have a copyright problem.


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## Richard Sutton (Dec 4, 2013)

All we do, as writers, is borrow, whether it's from our experiences, our friends and family, our world, our cultural background, etc., etc. However, when you adopt another writer's fictional world, you run the risk of being relegated to the "Fan Fiction" side of the aisle. That's not a terribly bad thing if you intend to associate your writing brand with the other writer, but if you want to create your own readers and stay far from any potential legal issues, you'll need to be sure to bury the borrowed form into your work by careful modification, so well that it can't be easily identified.


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