# What do I say to someone who's afraid of writing minority characters?



## Feo Takahari (Mar 14, 2015)

Because this seems to be a ridiculously common thing. I'll use one typical post as an example:



> I don't know if afraid is the word but I'm becoming wary of writing "representative" characters (POCs, trans, etc.). It just seems like there's no way to do them "right" without getting absolutely piled on.
> 
> I mean I make characters first, not tokens. The whole "just make sure they're actual characters -- good characters -- and you'll be good" is bullshit. If they're not perfect, then you're doing it wrong and you get piled on. If they are perfect, then you're doing it wrong and you get piled on. There is literally no way to do it right where people leave you alone.
> 
> I don't need that kind of shit so I'm just avoiding doing it at all.



I'm not really sure what's so scary here--it's not like writing a whole bunch of white men makes you immune to being dumped on for saying stupid things--but since it keeps coming up, I feel like I ought to have some response to it. What on Earth should I say?

Edit @Jabrosky: I'd prefer not to state where I saw this, so as to avoid bringing drama from one site to another. I've seen similar posts in quite a few places, including Mythic Scribes.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 14, 2015)

Where on the Internet was this particular post? I might be able to talk it out with that writer, since they might need an ear less hostile than the stereotypical "social justice warrior".

Mind you, Feo, I'm not saying _you_ specifically are a stereotypical SJW, but you do seem a little, uh, put off by that passage you're quoting.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Mar 14, 2015)

If the poster wants to be left alone, they're in pursuit of the wrong profession.

Art is going to be criticized, no matter what. If you aren't willing to put yourself out there...I mean really put yourself out there, then what's the point? An artist's best work is often that piece where they took risks.

As long as the artist tries to understand their subject matter, or character in this case, I don't see an issue. If they want to avoid criticism, they could try to play it safe and never do work of any importance or power, but they'll probably simply wind up in obscurity.

Which is worse?


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## Devor (Mar 14, 2015)

If you actually want to talk to the person, and get out of the internet-refute-thing, the first thing to do is to acknowledge the validity of the statement.

Because in fairness, it is valid.  It's just a question of _how_ valid.  Is it a pebble of a point or a boulder?  Is it frequently that drastic or only on rare occasions?   Even if you think it doesn't happen often, even if in reality it doesn't happen often, that doesn't mean it won't happen to him.  Some people are like magnets for these things, whether they deserve it or not.

What I mean is, if you want to change someone's mind, you don't need to put down the point they're making.  You don't need to invalidate their feelings, their perceptions, their world view.

Yes it happens, people will give you hell for anything.  But there are great benefits to doing it.  And there are some easy ways to minimize the pitfalls - both legitimate and perceived - that those complainers are referring to.  That's what works.

That's, y'know, Persuasion 101.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 14, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Art is going to be criticized, no matter what. If you aren't willing to put yourself out there...I mean really put yourself out there, then what's the point? An artist's best work is often that piece where they took risks.



This is something I think people are deathly afraid of for some reason. They don't want to offend or misrepresent. But your art is your art. People pick apart everything. I mean if a dress is black and blue or white and gold. It's unavoidable. If this person is seriously interested in representing certain kinds of characters, then, I don't know, read books that have gotten praise for utilizing these kind of characters. What did the writers do successfully? What did they do strangely?

Sure, it's good to be as representative as you can. But maybe you should be somewhat familiar with certain kinds of people before you start writing about them. Or write to your best ability. This may require you to read, listen, and watch. That's how all writers grow. We're observant as hell. 

Believability is becoming a bigger and bigger thing for audiences these days. Even in fantasy. It's just about making the best character you can, listening to criticism, and trying new things. If this person keeps running into people "piling on" then perhaps these people aren't the target audience. 

For example, I write dark comic fantasy. I'm not going to go on a romance forum and share my ideas with people. They're not my audience. There may be no convincing them that what I'm doing is cool.

I just feel if this person is trying to please a certain community of people, then it may be a long uphill battle. He or she has to accept the criticism and ask questions instead of throwing hands up in the air and saying "I'm not doing it."

Edit: I'd like to also add that learning about people different than you can be one of the most exciting things about being a writer. Sure, you may screw up the representation sometimes, but you only learn by doing.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 14, 2015)

In fairness, while no art should be exempt from criticism, the special problem with this particular theme is how intertwined with morally charged politics it always has been. If you think it's painful to have your prose or plotting picked apart, wait until you have your character attacked with accusations that you're endorsing the oppression of women, non-Europeans, gender and/or sexual minorities, or any other "underdog" demographic. No one wants to be seen as the bad guy.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 14, 2015)

If people say these kind of things all the time, maybe the problem isn't that they're hyper-sensitive. Try to understand why they may say these things. Respond to criticism thoughtfully and think "Why do people keep saying these things about my work?" Understand that if you tackle topics that may be controversial in some aspect, then you're going to get more criticism heaped upon you. You can dial back certain elements of art and still get your point across. But if your ultimate goal is to ignore all criticism anyway, then it doesn't matter what people say. 

I think figuring out an audience is one important aspect of writing that is often ignored. If you're writing certain kinds of characters that seem to be putting people off, then they're certainly not your audience. But if it seems like almost everyone is put off by it, it may be time to analyze what you're doing.

I'll give an example on my end. When I was younger, I wrote very polarizing fiction in my creative writing classes. One girl wrote on my manuscript, "You should be in a mental hospital." Others said that my writing made them ill. At the time I was writing "shock horror" that used a lot of very controversial themes in it (I won't go into what they were, but they were pretty extreme). At one point I thought to myself, "Is this really what I want to be writing? Who is the audience I'm writing this for?" While my fiction still has horror elements, it's definitely dialed back significantly. I'm still writing what I want to write but without the effect of making 99 percent of people uncomfortable with it. There's certainly a niche for everything, but if you want to have people praise your writing and characters, then that may be one thing to really think about long and hard. 

Writers may ask themselves: "Am I alienating a huge section of my potential audience? And if so, am I OK with that?"


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## T.Allen.Smith (Mar 14, 2015)

Jabrosky said:


> ...while no art should be exempt from criticism, the special problem with this particular theme is how intertwined with morally charged politics it always has been...


This is nothing new to modern times or modern issues. Art has always been treated in this manner.

People can pick apart anything they like from my writing...prose, characters, plot.... If I put something out there, it's all fair game. I'd rather not be scared of what someone may think of my creation.



Philip Overby said:


> "You should be in a mental hospital."


I can see that.


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## Feo Takahari (Mar 14, 2015)

Philip Overby said:


> I think figuring out an audience is one important aspect of writing that is often ignored. If you're writing certain kinds of characters that seem to be putting people off, then they're certainly not your audience. But if it seems like almost everyone is put off by it, it may be time to analyze what you're doing.



As a slight aside, it might also be worth considering whether "everyone" is really everyone. I've been watching folks on Tumblr crow over driving David Gaider off the site, but I've also seen a lot of minority members praise the characters he and other Dragon Age writers have created. Some sites, like Tumblr and Twitter, are great for creating an apparent force multiplier where it seems like a particular viewpoint is more prevalent than it really is, and deciding not to engage on those sites doesn't have to mean giving up on your ideas.


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## Penpilot (Mar 14, 2015)

I've heard some people say that the worst possible reaction to a story is no reaction at all, positive or negative. It means your story didn't stir up any emotion at all. It's tasteless like eating rice crackers. 

As someone who would be considered a POC, I'm Chinese, when I encounter an Asian in books, movies, or TV, I really-really only care about the character being written as a person that is true to themselves. I don't care if they're whitewashed or have accents etc.

IMHO if the writing is good everything else will take care of itself. If it's bad, well, you're probably offending more than just the minorities. I think a part of it is figuring out the truth of the character and their backgrounds, so that it doesn't ring false.

There's a comedian named Russell Peters. His shtick is he pokes fun at ethnicity. (There are youtube videos of his bits if anyone is interested.) He's of Indian heritage and his jokes about Chinese people are some of the funniest I've ever heard. Why? Because they poke fun at a truth without being mean or cheap. 

And I think that's the most important thing, don't be mean or cheap.

As for not receiving criticism, take the most well received movie, book, or tv show, then go look at all the one star ratings on Amazon, or go find all the blogs that rant about how crappy those things are.

Write a terrific book, you'll be praised and criticised. Write a crappy book, you'll be praised and criticised. The only way to avoid criticism is to never show you writing to anyone ever. Or to just simply quit writing. 

It's late, and I'm not entirely sure if this adds up to much or makes a good point on anything. Hopefully it does.


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## Hainted (Mar 14, 2015)

Let me say something, I am a White Straight Southern Male in the United States and just by getting up in the mornings I am responsible for all the problems in the world. You're going to offend someone no matter what you write. The biggest difference is what the criticism is and where it's coming from. 

i.e. : White straight people saying they were offended by an African-American Gay character I wrote. Sorry, you go in the ignore file. You're not a part of either culture so you don't get to be offended on their behalf.

Now if an African-American or Gay person started criticizing then I would engage them, ask what I portrayed wrong and what I needed to understand about their experiences before I use the character in the future. If they are genuinely concerned they will engage back.

And people that say I shouldn't write characters of other orientations/cultures/races I just shoot back they shouldn't write aliens/elves/vampires/etc since they aren't any of those things either.


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## Mythopoet (Mar 14, 2015)

Honestly? I think you should leave them alone. They have a valid point and if they just aren't comfortable with "representative" characters then they shouldn't have to write them. It's their business.


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## Nimue (Mar 14, 2015)

I feel like there are people who spend a lot of time worrying about and getting defensive over writing diversity, yet they won't put any time into actually researching whether or not what they're writing is offensive.  At that point, you're just constructing a bogeyman.  Do some research!  You have to be willing to listen to and value the viewpoints of people who have different experiences than your own--and if you can do that, you will gain confidence in what you're writing.

Are the answers you find going to be perfect?  Probably not.  But it's a damn sight better than writing like you have all the answers in your own head.

...I feel like the outrage this person is anticipating is at least a little imaginary.  I mean, if you're an indie writer and you put a book up with a bad stereotype character in it, there's no way the hordes of Tumblr are going to go hunt you down.  Hashtag campaigns against your book are only really a problem if you and your work are famous.  Do you really want to go down the line of "I won't write this because if I'm really successful, there might be people who harass me..."  If you're really successful, people will harass you about something.  Don't let that get in the way of trying new things in your writing, for goodness's sake.  If you play it completely safe all the time, all you're going to get is pablum and unoriginality.

I can understand anxiety, but this reaction is depriving writers of the chance to grow.  Diversity can be used to reach out to readers, and think of the richness it brings to your writing, the chance to explore new perspectives.  Think of the worlds you can get when you blend fantasy with cultures and ways of life that haven't been done to death in mainstream culture!  It makes me sad that people are thinking about this issue with fears and negativity when it seems so damn _awesome_ to me.  If you're willing to learn and listen, you have nothing to fear.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 14, 2015)

I'd like to address Feo's original post by saying how I might talk this particular person about including diversity in fiction. There is really no broad stroke way of doing it. So I'd like to talk about this particular writer's experience (I'll pretend like I'm addressing him or her directly): 


> I don't know if afraid is the word but I'm becoming wary of writing "representative" characters (POCs, trans, etc.). It just seems like there's no way to do them "right" without getting absolutely piled on.



There isn't any one way to write any character "right." Your definition, my definition, and a hundred other random people's version of "right" is always going to be different. I'm curious what you mean by "getting piled on." Are hundreds of people swarming over your work? As Nimue said, it may be in your head a little bit. 

Also, could you describe the character(s) that you feel are getting piled on? Maybe I can help you figure out what people may be getting hung up on. I'm no expert by any means either, but it helps to sit down with people and see what it is that is bothering them. 



> I mean I make characters first, not tokens. The whole "just make sure they're actual characters -- good characters -- and you'll be good" is bullshit. If they're not perfect, then you're doing it wrong and you get piled on. If they are perfect, then you're doing it wrong and you get piled on. There is literally no way to do it right where people leave you alone.



Design the characters the way you want, put them out there for the world to enjoy, and see what your reviews say. See what the audience that is buying your fiction says. Are they echoing the same concern? If your issue is with, let's say, a dozen or so people on a social network or forum, are they completely representative of how all people will feel about your characters? It's best to put your fiction out there for as wide a base as possible and see the reception.


> I don't need that kind of shit so I'm just avoiding doing it at all.



That's certainly an option, but let me offer an alternative. 

Pick out some books. Make sure they're:

1. Written by someone from a different race, gender, etc. than you
2. Written about some characters from different races, genders, etc. than you

This will allow you to see how other people are executing handling these kind of characters. You may also learn more about yourself as a writer. Do you like stories with characters different than you? Why or why not? How would you tackle the same characters from your perspective?

This could be an exercise to help expand your understanding of why people may feel a certain way about the way you represent certain kinds of characters. 

This is an option anyway. It's not law. Ultimately you have to decide how you want your characters to be portrayed. No other person can decide that. They can only share their concerns. 

Hope this helps.


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## Reilith (Mar 14, 2015)

I will try to keep this short and simple. You don't like it, don't read it. There is no point in attacking a person for their beliefs, it will only be a useless waste of time. When it comes to the people of the internet, you can't not see them, but you can choose not to engage them. I am active on tumblr for 7 years or so, and I've seen it all. I don't agree with some of it, but I am not going to spend my precious time fighting over it with an unknown person kilometers away about out opinion difference. I am not going to change my opinion, and they are certainly not going to change theirs. So eff them I say.

As in writing any type of minority in your work, do it the way you want it. There are always going to be people who are not going to like something you write, and there are always going to be the ones who do. Every writer should know how to deal with criticism, good and bad, and with haters. You don't sit down and count every bad comment made by a bunch of people on the internet and then weep for it. You write because you want it, and like it so, so don't let anyone stop you from doing it.

Some people asked me why I chose to write a gay male character in fantasy. There is more than one answer to that (I don't see gay male MC's that often, I liked what I read before with that theme, I want to show the struggles of a homosexual person that are real in our world, but show in a fictional etc.) but the main one is: _I like it._ I am going to do my best, and if I go down in flames for it, I will gladly do so, because I was true to my writing. If not, even better.

In the end, this wasn't that short and simple after all.


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## skip.knox (Mar 14, 2015)

It's significant to me that the original post says the person avoids trying. I read this as they actually have not *experienced* these criticisms, only that they are afraid of them.

If you have written a work and have been piled on, then okay, you can react. People here have different opinions on how or even whether to react, but that's individual. Some people take criticism better than others. Some are going to fall apart no matter what the criticism is.

OTOH, if you haven't even written and published such a work, then I'd say there may be other issues at play here, and a rather different conversation needs to take place.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 14, 2015)

Feo Takahari said:


> As a slight aside, it might also be worth considering whether "everyone" is really everyone. I've been watching folks on Tumblr crow over driving David Gaider off the site, but I've also seen a lot of minority members praise the characters he and other Dragon Age writers have created. Some sites, like Tumblr and Twitter, are great for creating an apparent force multiplier where it seems like a particular viewpoint is more prevalent than it really is, and deciding not to engage on those sites doesn't have to mean giving up on your ideas.


In principle, consulting actual members of marginalized groups for opinions on offensiveness sounds like a great idea, and it's intuitively more sensible than consulting people not in those groups. The catch comes in when you consider that marginalized groups are rarely a monolithic hive mind, and that many of the activists claiming to represent them are only one vocal subculture (or rather assortment of subcultures). If anything, these activists are quick to dismiss any disagreements from their own "tribe" as victims of internalized oppression, as if they believed there was only one thinking pattern acceptable within their larger demographic. Which, I have to say, sounds suspiciously like stereotyping dehumanization.

In some cases, there's an apparent double standard over who gets to say or write what, with in-groups getting a pass over out-groups. Food metaphors for skin color, which I mentioned in another thread, are apparently one example of this, since apparently non-European writers are given a pass that their European brethren can't. Not that the thinking pattern is _completely_ incomprehensible to me; I honestly would feel more comfortable joking about my own Asperger's than I would if a "neurotypical" (i.e. non-autistic) made fun of it. On the other hand, if you find enough people within a group who don't share the activist consensus on what's offensive---say, finding plenty of black people who _don't_ have qualms about non-blacks using "cocoa" as a descriptor*---you have to question how representative the activists' perspectives really are.

And of course this is all assuming those perspectives are even rational or justified in the first place.

* Though to clarify, while I _have _used "cocoa" as a descriptor in the past after seeing African-American writers use it for their own characters, I've decided it _isn't_ the best metaphor even without the politicized interpretations. It does reference a plant of Central American, rather than African, origin after all.


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## Svrtnsse (Mar 14, 2015)

I think part of the issue is with how to handle criticism. The characters we create can be a part of ourselves or come from who we are. If we then receive criticism about how we portray those characters it puts into question our image of who we are as people.

I think this is something that lies close to why men often are nervous about how to portray women. 
I like to consider myself a nice guy and I like to think I create meaningful female characters that have their own roles to play. If I write a female character that I take some pride in, that I like, and that I consider meaningful and someone comes along and tears it down for being a stereotype or for objectifying women or some other reason. They're not just saying that I've failed at portraying my character; they're also saying I don't understand women and they're saying that my character is an example of something that I as a person is principally opposed to.
In short, they're saying I'm not the nice guy I think I am.

This is something that I've occasionally struggled with myself, but that I think I've learned to deal with. It's not easy though, and I can see how it's daunting to put yourself in a position where you might have to deal with it.

I think that eventually, you'll have to - whether intentionally or not.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 14, 2015)

Svrtnsse said:


> I think part of the issue is with how to handle criticism. The characters we create can be a part of ourselves or come from who we are. If we then receive criticism about how we portray those characters it puts into question our image of who we are as people.
> 
> I think this is something that lies close to why men often are nervous about how to portray women.
> I like to consider myself a nice guy and I like to think I create meaningful female characters that have their own roles to play. If I write a female character that I take some pride in, that I like, and that I consider meaningful and someone comes along and tears it down for being a stereotype or for objectifying women or some other reason. They're not just saying that I've failed at portraying my character; they're also saying I don't understand women and they're saying that my character is an example of something that I as a person is principally opposed to.
> In short, they're saying I'm not the nice guy I think I am.


This is almost what I meant to convey when I talked about how we can take politically charged critiques, especially those dealing with the politics of oppression, more personally than critiques about prose or whatnot.

Going back to the theme of activists claiming to represent whole groups, I've seen polls reporting that while the vast majority of women (and a nearly equal majority of men) endorsed gender equality, only a minority (e.g. 23% of women, and 16% of men) labeled themselves as feminists. This might seem contradictory since dictionaries still define "feminism" as fundamentally about gender equality, but that's partly because the word has now become associated with a specific left-wing sociocultural movement that unfortunately has been appropriated by self-righteous kids on places like tumblr. Of course, I am referring to the _popular _association here; I'm sure even those people who accept the feminist label for themselves have a variety of viewpoints that don't always fall in line with the tumblrite party line.

Just because a few trolls on tumblr declare something problematic doesn't always mean they represent the feminist consensus, let alone the consensus of any woman who supported gender equality.


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## Chessie (Mar 14, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Art is going to be criticized, no matter what. If you aren't willing to put yourself out there...I mean really put yourself out there, then what's the point? An artist's best work is often that piece where they took risks.



Absolutely. People are going to have opinions of our work no matter what. That's awesome. At least its better to have someone engaged in the writing and triggered to a response than none at all. Don't they say that a writer's worst enemy is obscurity?


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## Nimue (Mar 14, 2015)

Svrtnsse said:


> I think part of the issue is with how to handle criticism. The characters we create can be a part of ourselves or come from who we are. If we then receive criticism about how we portray those characters it puts into question our image of who we are as people.
> 
> I think this is something that lies close to why men often are nervous about how to portray women.
> I like to consider myself a nice guy and I like to think I create meaningful female characters that have their own roles to play. If I write a female character that I take some pride in, that I like, and that I consider meaningful and someone comes along and tears it down for being a stereotype or for objectifying women or some other reason. They're not just saying that I've failed at portraying my character; they're also saying I don't understand women and they're saying that my character is an example of something that I as a person is principally opposed to.
> ...



I have utmost sympathy for this, and the thing to remember is that writing with a harmful cultural stereotype does _not_ make you the bad guy.  We've all done it, because we've grown up in a culture that has taught us these things from birth.  What matters is your reaction to having things pointed out.

Of course the standard criticism-taking steps apply here; evaluate the source and context of this criticism, for sure.  But the really difficult part of disengaging from stereotypes is that mainstream culture and all its implicit biases are going to be on your side, whispering seductively in your ear about comfort zones and "getting away with things."  How could it be wrong when it's so prevalent?  Well, remind yourself that there's a lot of crappy stuff that gets everywhere: practically the definition of a cliche.  You're going to have to give it more thought, and take a while to examine your own biases.  The first instinct is to defend your writing, deny that there's anything wrong with it, and convince yourself to continue doing what you're doing--which is a writer's immediate reaction to a lot of critique, and I think I'm not just speaking for myself when I say that doing this neeeeever really made me a better writer.

Using a problematic trope when you didn't realize it was problematic is a thing that--and I hope everyone believes this--can be forgiven.  But if you continue writing with something harmful after multiple people have objected to it, that shows intent.

The good thing about a lot of these issues is that they can be fixed with the magic of editing and rewriting!  Consider what you love about the character, and is it _really_ tied up so tightly with what people have criticized as problematic?  Put the character in a new role, give them new agency, shake up their background, try to see them in a new light.  Characters can be reborn, and chances are you'll like them a lot better because they won't fall into those particular cliches, and that makes them a little fresher and more interesting.


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## Reilith (Mar 14, 2015)

Chesterama said:


> People are going to have opinions of our work no matter what. That's awesome. At least its better to have someone engaged in the writing and triggered to a response than none at all. Don't they say that a writer's worst enemy is obscurity?



There is no such thing as 'good' and 'bad' popularity and advertisement. What you said reminded me of that.


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## Clinton Seeber (Mar 14, 2015)

Deleted by T.Allen.Smith


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## Jabrosky (Mar 14, 2015)

I'm not going to bother forcing you to write non-European characters if you really don't want to, Are you saying writers who _are_ interested in non-European influences for their fantasy worlds are forcing something "out of place" into their own work?


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## Nimue (Mar 14, 2015)

Okay.  As a palate cleanser for that post, I'll just leave this short list of uninteresting, out-of-place fantasy books by authors like Ursula K. LeGuin and Junot Diaz.  Oh, whoops, they don't count because they're not Men of European Heritage.


That is the nicest possible response I can have to this; I'm going to go lie down.


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## Mythopoet (Mar 14, 2015)

This is so way off base... I just can't even...  

*has aneurism and dies, never to plague the forums again*


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## K.S. Crooks (Mar 14, 2015)

I would say to the person not to confuse one trait with another. If you say a person is black, which donates skin colour and nothing else. It doesn't tell you the gender, sexual orientation, if the person is disabled in some way, what type of music they like or their nationality. Some people think of one trait and immediately endows the person with several others based on their own preconceptions of what it means to be like the one trait they are looking at. Tell the person to create ten characters describing only their intelligence, occupation and artistic tastes, and then randomly make the people different genders, colours, sexual orientation, etc. People are typically afraid of what they don't understand, the solution is to take the time to learn.


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## X Equestris (Mar 14, 2015)

Deleted by T.Allen.Smith


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## Clinton Seeber (Mar 14, 2015)

Deleted by T.Allen.Smith


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## Nimue (Mar 14, 2015)

Calling troll on this. If not troll, please just leave me in denial.


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## Clinton Seeber (Mar 14, 2015)

Deleted by T.Allen.Smith


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## Philip Overby (Mar 14, 2015)

I do think if someone doesn't want to write certain characters, then go for it. No one can force you to write. I just think the future of fantasy is going in a different direction. If people encourage others to include diverse characters, it's because they want to see new stories with new kind of characters in fantasy. They hope that fantasy evolves instead of doing the same kind of things. Of course you can write the same kinds of characters and stories and do very well with them. I just find people who are looking for new worlds and characters that aren't so familiar may pass over these.


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## Clinton Seeber (Mar 14, 2015)

Philip Overby said:


> I do think if someone doesn't want to write certain characters, then go for it. No one can force you to write. I just think the future of fantasy is going in a different direction. If people encourage others to include diverse characters, it's because they want to see new stories with new kind of characters in fantasy. They hope that fantasy evolves instead of doing the same kind of things. Of course you can write the same kinds of characters and stories and do very well with them. I just find people who are looking for new worlds and characters that aren't so familiar may pass over these.



 Perhaps, Phillip. But I am not yet convinced of that. There may indeed be some who are trying to take it in that direction, but only time will tell how well that works. But fantasy still tends to be split into different cultures. For example, separate dwarf, elf and human kingdoms with their own unique cultures, styles and traditions. There aren't a lot of writers writing about a combined elf, dwarf and human kingdom where they are all living together in the same cities and houses and marrying each other where the culture is a mish-mash of all three.


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## Feo Takahari (Mar 14, 2015)

Clinton Seeber said:


> I think my point was that if someone says they are "afraid" to do so, it is pretty much just a meek way of saying that they don't want to. So no amount of talking to them will probably do any good.



I guess the real reason this sort of thing frustrates me is that it can get into . . . I want to say victim-blaming, though that may be too strong a word. Like what they're saying is "Stop whining about how you want more minority members in fiction! You'd have tons of minority members if you hadn't scared everyone off by asking for more minority members!" To be clear, I'm not accusing the anon I first quoted of anything like that, but when this comes up on some sites, it feels like the real goal is to try to make minority members shut up and stop posting.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 14, 2015)

Last year I made a comment that my hesitation to write a POC MC was that I felt language might be my biggest hang-up.  By that I meant that I have a natural way of writing language and dialogue, and though I alter wording and structure to say, designate a character as lower-class, or snobbish, or prudish, or meek, etc. I would expect my POC character to fit more into those guidelines than any perceived "racial" language...accent?  Anyways, it was a genuine question, because I don't know nor presume to be able to anticipate whether readers (of whatever race you want to pick) would have certain dialogue expectations.  For me the answer is simple, whatever his skin tone, if he's poor, he'll speak like the other kids who are in the Victorian slum, and if he's got a naval academy background his speech will be colored with military jargon, and if he's a mercenary he'll exhibit a certain amount of crudeness, etc.  I was concerned readers might find it off-putting in a way, as if I'm disregarding his ethnicity.  

Now, having said that, I can understand why any writer might have concerns about selecting a character they feel "they don't have the right to write" in a way.  I write male characters all the time and the worst comment I've had so far (and this includes intimate scenes and all manner of other delicate issues) is that "grown men probably don't frown like you wrote here, that makes him sound a little un-manly" and I was perfectly happy to accept I could keep heed of the character a bit more.  But when discussing or dealing with race, I think it's a little touchier.  

I would say that when I received a comment about my post, saying "You may be able to forget that you're white, but POC can't forget that they're not", I was a little baffled.  In my mind I thought, really?  What year are we living in?  But I really mulled those words over because perhaps I'd been looking at it the wrong way.  Perhaps my counting all people as equal sort of has an insulting tone?  I've tried to be more sensitive since then.  

That being said, writing is a difficult task and it can become un-fun very quickly is you feel unduly criticized.  I'd recommend to any newer writer to stick with the things they're most comfortable.  Some folks refuse to write sex.  Some refuse to write violence against women.  Some refuse to write whatever.  Name one.  It's their comfort level, it's their work, and if they don't feel for whatever reason the topic appeals to them (or in this case a character), it's their business.  If they like a tight little corner of comfort zone, it isn't my problem.  I'll do whatever I'm comfortable with, which includes POC.  

If anyone sees a writer limiting their writing for a reason that makes them (the assistant in this case) uncomfortable or whatever, they might try reaching out and giving some advice.  Something like, "I can understand your frustration over this matter, but have you considered asking a forum for support in creating a character and portraying him in a way that doesn't draw too much attention to his race, and instead focuses on his person, inside, rather than outside?"

I think that would be the best advice anyone could receive to overcome what sounds to me like a newer writer who isn't yet comfortable stepping into too many new pairs of shoes.

My point is if a writer is uncomfortable with the subject, the story probably won't be much good anyways.  Why press someone to write something they feel isn't good enough or makes them sweat?


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## Svrtnsse (Mar 15, 2015)

Feo Takahari said:


> ...but when this comes up on some sites, it feels like the real goal is to try to make minority members shut up and stop posting.



_Oh, so it's like ethics in gaming journalism?_
Sorry, couldn't resist that one.

---

Anyway, I think you have a point. It's really easy to just keep going in the same ol' tracks you've always been going in. They're nice and comfortable and you know where they lead. Then someone comes along and suggests that maybe it'd be interesting if the tracks lead somewhere else, or that there may quicker to take a shortcut round the other side of that hill, or a nice view from over by those rocks.
Thing is, you've always gone on the left side of the hill, and the track is really well worn. Sure, it might be a shorter route on the right side, but you'd have to walk over unbroken land and lay down new tracks and that's such a hassle - especially since you'll get around the hill anyway with the old road.
And sure, it might be a nice view over by those rocks, but it's such a hassle walking through the thorns between here and there, and the view's pretty nice from over by the old oak we'll pass later too. 
*And why in the world would we want to go anywhere else, we've got plenty of nice things here already!*

So, yeah, everything's just fine, let's keep doing what we're doing. If someone really wants to go check out those rocks, let them. Just don't come prattling about it to us, we like the oak and we don't want to hear anything about no rocks.


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## Clinton Seeber (Mar 15, 2015)

Deleted by T.Allen.Smith


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## Mindfire (Mar 16, 2015)

Wow. I missed ALL the fireworks.


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## Russ (Mar 16, 2015)

I think it would be a positive thing to encourage someone not to be afraid of writing a POC character.

That way at least the choice of who to write, and who not to write, would not be coming out of fear.

If you want to see amazing use of language and different culture I would highly reccomend my old friend Nalo Hopkinson's work.  It is great stuff.


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## Devor (Mar 16, 2015)

Russ said:


> I think it would be a positive thing to encourage someone not to be afraid of writing a POC character.
> 
> That way at least the choice of who to write, and who not to write, would not be coming out of fear.



I agree with this 100%.  But a lack of fear shouldn't mean a lack of respect for the challenges involved.  Instead, it should mean a clear vision of the path towards overcoming those challenges, and the choice about when it may or may not be worth pursuing for an individual work.

I keep mentioning those challenges because a lot of us are on our first novel, and more, a novel that won't even be published.  It's one thing to complain to a publisher or a prolific writer about the content of their work; it's another to do so with somebody who's still trying to figure out their own abilities.

A variety of stories about a variety of types of people is worth pursuing.  Just, I think we should recognize its spot in the learning curve.


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