# Standard Unit of Measure for Pain?...



## DragonOfTheAerie (Sep 4, 2016)

In trying to create a standard unit of measure for pain to use in my WIP, I quickly realized exactly why it has never been done before. 

Pain isn't a measurable quantity, and everyone experiences it differently. Also, it's as much in your head as it is a physical reality. There are too many factors to take into account. It would have to be something like intensity times sensitivity times duration times...I don't know, then you would have to take into account the healing process for any injury inflicted, and just anticipating pain can make it worse. Things get foggy fast.  

I'm thinking about my profound fear of needles right now. I was doing a first aid class once and we were all finding out our blood types. I had opted out weeks ago due to the finger prick. My classmates thought this was ridiculous. One of them told me, "It's not going to hurt THAT much," 

The thing i have had to explain over and over and over is that _the pain isn't what i'm worried about!_ It's the needle itself. The *idea* of being hurt/punctured (euuugh!) is what makes it so terrifying. The point? Regardless of how painful something *actually* is, it'll be more or less bearable depending on your perception of it. 

All that said...I really want to be able to pull this off. It's not plot-essential, really, but it would be the best kind of creepy. In case you're wondering why, it's for punishment. Instead of giving a specific number of lashes, or whatever, for crimes, I thought of the idea of literally inflicting a specific amount of pain...and it was such a weird and unsettling idea, I loved it.

A lot of the complications could be eliminated if there was a way to inflict pain without actually inflicting injury of any kind. In a fantasy world, it's pretty plausible. But, that makes it rather difficult to make it appropriately scary. I rather prefer the blood and nasty details--because in the scene I'm using this i'm going for an effect of shock and horror rather than .  I'm content with it being inexact as long as i can avoid breaking suspension of disbelief. 

I feel really evil writing this...


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## La Volpe (Sep 4, 2016)

The problem with pain, as you mention, is that it is perceived differently by different people. What's more, it's perceived differently by the _same_ people at different times and in different situations.

First off, there's endorphins (I think it's called), the body's own painkiller. E.g. When you're in fight-or-flight mode, your pain is less pronounced.

Then, your mindset alone can change your perception of pain. E.g. you can lessen pain via meditation and/or hypnosis.

As for inflicting pain: unless they can activate the nerves and/or brain regions directly, I can't think of a way they'd be able to measure how much pain they're inflicting (whether pain experienced or a fixed number of pain units). I guess you could hit a bunch of people with a standardised stick and average their reported pain levels? Maybe?


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## FifthView (Sep 4, 2016)

Meanwhile....Scientists created a pain measurement scale by burning the hands of women in labor


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## SaltyDog (Sep 4, 2016)

Going with the lot of question theme, eh Dragon?  lol.

Are you going for a scale of 1 to 20?  Labeling the victims reactions.  Like your writing, your character gets hit on the head by a rock, are you looking to go to the chart and see his/her reaction and pain level?

A way to inflict pain without any injury could be magic, the user actually gets into the victim's head and makes him/her think that they are being flayed alive, or slowly burned, when in fact, they are just lying on a cot in the dungeon while the dude using magic stands over him.

Another is a drug, or plant material, that causes intense cramps but then is passed.

Measuring pain would be tough, like La Volpe said, the hitting with the stick could be a way.  Or not, this is quite difficult.


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## SaltyDog (Sep 4, 2016)

FifthView said:


> Meanwhile....Scientists created a pain measurement scale by burning the hands of women in labor



I just read that article.  Found it slightly disturbing.


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## FifthView (Sep 4, 2016)

You could always create a creature or a human power/magic, in which something else measures the pain (in a separate person) objectively and could quantify it in some way.  A type of sympathetic reaction, via telepathy/magic, expressed in some physical way.

I.e., if the quirbly is a creature that taps into a human's experience of pain:

"Ah.  The quirbly has raised three spikes on its back.  Now let's go for 5 spikes."


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Sep 4, 2016)

SaltyDog said:


> I just read that article.  Found it slightly disturbing.



Just read it too (or skimmed). Pretty fascinating, and super helpful. I feel like I should have found it more disturbing, lol.


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## SaltyDog (Sep 4, 2016)

Lol using women in labor?  That just wasn't right, anything else I would be fine, am fine, but seriously?  I understand why, but still.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Sep 4, 2016)

SaltyDog said:


> Lol using women in labor?  That just wasn't right, anything else I would be fine, am fine, but seriously?  I understand why, but still.



I guess it just goes to show how far we've gone in terms of regulations on using human subjects in research...O_O


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Sep 4, 2016)

In response to everyone else: My current view of it is kind of like the "standardized stick" thing that was mentioned. Everyone goes through tests to determine how they experience pain and the punishments they would receive are adjusted to match. 

There are people in this world with the power to inflict pain (using magic). The standard could have been developed using experiments using their powers.

Edit: They no longer exist, but the standard could have been created that way.


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## SaltyDog (Sep 4, 2016)

I do like FithView's idea, with an animal, sounds interesting.  And to better suite your wold it could be a flying creature.


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## FifthView (Sep 4, 2016)

SaltyDog said:


> I do like FithView's idea, with an animal, sounds interesting.  And to better suite your wold it could be a flying creature.



The funny potential is what happens when you consider subjective reactions.

So suppose we, the readers, are already made familiar with the cause-effect reality of the quirbly.  Then comes a new torture subject.  As the torturer is carry the knife toward his victim, but before he reaches the victim, 6 spikes rise on the quirbly's back and the torturer chuckles to himself.  "Whoa-ho!  This is going to be a fun one!"

Of course that scenario might be entirely out of tone or unreasonable for DOTA's story.


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## SaltyDog (Sep 4, 2016)

Yep, I agree.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Sep 4, 2016)

FifthView said:


> The funny potential is what happens when you consider subjective reactions.
> 
> So suppose we, the readers, are already made familiar with the cause-effect reality of the quirbly.  Then comes a new torture subject.  As the torturer is carry the knife toward his victim, but before he reaches the victim, 6 spikes rise on the quirbly's back and the torturer chuckles to himself.  "Whoa-ho!  This is going to be a fun one!"
> 
> Of course that scenario might be entirely out of tone or unreasonable for DOTA's story.



Haha!!

Probably not useful in my case, but still, funny.


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## skip.knox (Sep 5, 2016)

This is simple. There are four levels of pain: winces, screams, screams and begs, dies.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Sep 5, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> This is simple. There are four levels of pain: winces, screams, screams and begs, dies.



Dies? 

Don't think you can literally die from pain. To my understanding, you'll black out after a point, though.


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## bdcharles (Sep 5, 2016)

The thing about specific units of pain is that even if you make some up, and scale it and everything, people might buy into it but they won't feel any fear at the idea - because it doesn't exist. It may feel rather dry and abstract. You have to dramatise to traumatise - so your guy might be able to inflict, at will, the exact sensation of burning, or childbirth, or the yanking out of a maggot-rotted tooth, or any other thing you can come up with. Whether he refers to that as "a hundred agons" or something is largely by-the-by. I suppose then, if he said "I sentence you to death by the burns of a million billion agons!" then, having set up that measure beforehand, you could use the unit to dramatic effect that may. Maybe.


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## CupofJoe (Sep 5, 2016)

For me the most surprising thing about the article was that the research was done in America in the late 1940s and not Germany in the early 1940s...


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Sep 5, 2016)

CupofJoe said:


> For me the most surprising thing about the article was that the research was done in America in the late 1940s and not Germany in the early 1940s...



America participated in the eugenics movement too. Forced sterilization of the "unfit", stuff like that.

We didn't have death camps, but we *did* round up everyone of Japanese ancestry into prison camps...


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Sep 7, 2016)

I'm struggling somewhat because if this is meant to be exact, the pain experienced while any wound inflicted is healing would have to be factored in. This could be solved by having it be inflicted by purely mental/magical means or at least not by inflicting actual injury, but, the scene where it is introduced is meant to be shocking, scary and somewhat gruesome, and how do you pull that off without inflicting any physical damage upon the character? Just pain? I don't know, it undermines the image I'm trying to create. I feel that in this case the details of the scene make the scene. 

I have a talent for getting myself into unsolvable dilemmas.


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