# Thought this was amusing



## Miskatonic (Aug 11, 2015)

So I play World of Warcraft and post on their official site web forum.

Well today they were discussing the announcing of their newest game expansion at some German gamecon location. Apparently people who had watched the streaming event noticed the crowd wasn't overly enthusiastic and took that as a sign that fans weren't really all that into the game after seeing the initial details.

So people spent time discussing why this was and I just happen to throw in the idea that people get a bit concerned when large groups of Germans get fanatical while in the presence of a charismatic speaker. Of course anybody with half a brain would realize I was making a joke.

Well I go back later and I've had my account suspended for 24 hours because of "racial hate speech". 

Apparently they don't realize that I'm a blonde, blue-eyed male. I didn't realize I could commit hate speech via a very tame joke against people of my own race.


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## Trick (Aug 11, 2015)

As far as I know, at least some native Germans take anything involving WWII and such things very seriously. (I thought it was funny, but I'm Irish and we're drunk all the time anyway...) Oh...oops, is that self-racial hate-speech? 

Seriously though, I have heard that there is very little sense of humor about it (it's a dark topic, requiring a certain type of humor I suppose). I'm willing to bet a German person took offense, which is somewhat understandable but a joke is a joke. Perhaps English-speaking Germans (of which I've heard there are many) don't interpret typed jokes the same way we do? Heck, we Americans misinterpret each other's meanings all the time.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Aug 11, 2015)

Trick said:


> As far as I know, at least some native Germans take anything involving WWII and such things very seriously. (I thought it was funny, but I'm Irish and we're drunk all the time anyway...) Oh...oops, is that self-racial hate-speech?
> 
> Seriously though, I have heard that there is very little sense of humor about it (it's a dark topic, requiring a certain type of humor I suppose). I'm willing to bet a German person took offense, which is somewhat understandable but a joke is a joke. Perhaps English-speaking Germans (of which I've heard there are many) don't interpret typed jokes the same way we do? Heck, we Americans misinterpret each other's meanings all the time.



Or that guy had his lederhosen in a wad. (Hey more self-hate speech from a partially ethnic german.)


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## Penpilot (Aug 12, 2015)

If you got banned for that? I'd hate to see what they'd do to someone who did this.

Warning Game of Thrones Season 5 spoilers.


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## CupofJoe (Aug 12, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> So I play World of Warcraft and post on their official site web forum.
> 
> Well today they were discussing the announcing of their newest game expansion at some German gamecon location. Apparently people who had watched the streaming event noticed the crowd wasn't overly enthusiastic and took that as a sign that fans weren't really all that into the game after seeing the initial details.
> 
> ...


Although I'm sure you didn't mean it as such, it is a fairly nasty thing to say about a group you are not apart of.
I can understand their reaction, although I'm not saying I agree with it.
Humour is utterly subjective, throw into that politics and someone is going to have a problem.


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## TheCatholicCrow (Aug 12, 2015)

WWII is a source of national shame for Germans. It's not anything that the current generation can control but decades later these stereotypes and comments are still being used at their expense. The Germans I know, indeed my German side of the family as well, tend to be very stoic people. American nerds (no offense  ) might jump up and down or high five each other to express themselves while Germans use different (culturally specific) body language- IDK maybe nodding their heads to show approval or something. It's my understanding that Germans tend to be skeptical people. Perhaps American Consumerism has trained us to be more excited about the next big thing while they're more inclined to think of practical concerns like whether the bugs are worked out. Also, Germans have a different sense of humor than Americans. (They don't have one. JK. But only a little because it's kind of true. I don't understand German humor and I know I'm not alone in that.) If you said the same to Russians about Stalin it probably wouldn't go over too well either. The same would go for Mussolini jokes though Americans always seem to forget that Germany didn't work alone so somehow Italy is usually let off the hook. Anyway - some jokes are better delivered in person rather than typed. It can be difficult to understand someone's intentions based on written text alone. 

I would say it was a culturally insensitive joke. I could even see an argument be made that it was ignorant. But _racist_? As long as you honestly phrased it as innocently as you say, that seems like massive leap to conclusions and a very strong accusation. I guess some internet users are hypersensitive to the topic. 

Sorry to hear about your account suspension. Is your entire account suspended or just your ability to post on forums? I've only ever played LOL so I can't speak for how WOW would work in this circumstance but my guess is that (with a little luck and a lot of groveling) you can challenge this with the administrators.


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## Svrtnsse (Aug 12, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> So people spent time discussing why this was and I just happen to throw in the idea that people get a bit concerned when large groups of Germans get fanatical while in the presence of a charismatic speaker. Of course anybody with half a brain would realize I was making a joke.
> 
> Well I go back later and I've had my account suspended for 24 hours because of "racial hate speech".
> 
> Apparently they don't realize that I'm a blonde, blue-eyed male. I didn't realize I could commit hate speech via a very tame joke against people of my own race.



Your joke is basically playing off some really bad stereotypes about German nationals as a people. You're also implying that if Germans get excited about something people should get worried because the Germans might go off trying to conquer the rest of Europe and start exterminating all the jews again.

EDIT: I work with a fair number of Germans, and most of them probably wouldn't have been too bothered by it - or at least not admitted to being bothered by it. Though if it's something they'd heard a lot, it'd probably be annoying. Kind of like blonde girls and blonde-jokes. /EDIT

I'm certain this wasn't your intent and you probably just didn't think very much about it. It's an old joke and you'd probably heard someone else say it before.

I also wouldn't say that this is Racial Hate Speech, but I can see how it's national stereotyping - or something like that.

As for being a blonde, blue-eyed male... does that give you the right to say things that people with a different hair color would not be allowed to say? Or is it that you're blue-eyed that makes it okay?
I've also played wow for quite a while, and the only time I'm made aware of the color of anyone else's hair or eyes is when they tell me about it. Even then, there's no way for me to check, and I just have to take their word for it. The same goes for Blizzard. When I created my account I didn't have to send in a picture of myself.

The color of your eyes or your hair doesn't matter - only the words you say do. You also have to consider your audience. Was this in a closed group like your guild with your friends, or was this in a public channel where everyone could see it? 
If it's in a close group that people have opted to be a member of, then jokes like that are probably fine.
If it's in a public channel full of people you don't know, it probably isn't. Just like no one who doesn't personally know you knows your gender or hair color, so too do you not know the history and background of the people who may read what you're saying.

I'm not saying a 24 hour suspension was the right thing to do here. But I'm also not saying you're completely without blame.


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## Amanita (Aug 12, 2015)

That’s the first time I hear of anyone being reprimanded for “racial hate speech” against Germans ever. 
I would have been offended by the comment but not enough to feel the need for a ban. I generally don’t think this is the appropriate way as long as there’s no one overstepping boundaries in a serious way such as threatening others with violence or support thereof. 

I recently read that many Americans would feel that someone who just smiles and says thank you after receiving a present doesn’t like it and that you’re generally much more enthusiastic about expressing how much you like something.
I don’t know if that’s true but Germans don’t tend to be very enthusiastic about products and the like in public. (And I’m even less so than German normal...) 
The exceptions I can think of at the moment are soccer games and concerts. 

There are differences between ethnical groups and the “race theory” doesn’t explain everything, especially if one moves outside of the US. By the way, from a German (and also from a French, Italian etc.) point of view, what is so often called “white” pop culture in many of those diversity discussions is actually American pop culture. Other languages are pushed back in favour of English and so on. (France actually has a quota of French songs they have to play on the radio to counter this.)
And non-American whites get little portrayal and what they do get often isn’t very accurate. I remember a NCIS episode where Ziva and Tony went to Berlin which looked like Munich and was full of typically Bavarian things. Those cities are very different, no matter how close they seem geographically from an American perspective. (And everyone had light blond hair which isn’t true for native Germans and even less in Berlin, a very diverse city.)
There are considerable differences between Germans and French and British and most people identify as such and not as “white.” There are even considerable differences between different parts of Germany and groups which don’t like each other. Bavarians for example have their own political party which tends to try to get its people’s interests through, sometimes at the expense of the rest of the country.
The fact that regional pride is still socially acceptable while national pride is not also plays a part in this of course. 
So racism is definitely not accurate maybe something like "ethnicism"?



> As far as I know, at least some native Germans take anything involving WWII and such things very seriously.



This is definitely true. There is this strong feeling (also passed on at school) that one people wouldn’t regret the events of WW2 enough anymore if they did not. Anything that parodies Hitler in some way or anything along those lines always ends up a big deal. 
The rest has already been discussed by TheCatholicCrow and Svrtnsse so no need to repeat their points.


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## Russ (Aug 12, 2015)

Most of my family is Austrian, and at various times were German (the border where we were tended to get around a lot).

When hanging with Germans and we get joking about the rivalry between the two countries we often say "In Austria Hitler couldn't get a job, in Germany they  made him der Fuhrer."  The Germans seem to laugh along with it.

What I find quite funny in this thread is the characterizations of Germans as a group at all.  The Prussians (what is left of them) were a very uptight people.  The Bavarians tended to be much more light hearted and enjoy a beer and a laugh more than most, adn their are a multitude of groups in between.  

I don't find your joke hilarious, but I don't think it is the slightest bit offensive or racist.  I know lots of young Germans who make jokes about the Nazi past and Hitler.  

Many internet users are engaged in two sports that cause trouble.  The first is the pure empowerment of "being oppressed" as a route to success, which I sometimes call "The Oppression Olympics."  The second is the closely related "white knighters"  who will charge in to save those who they deem need saving.  Both are really dysfunctional on some many levels.

Heck, apparently even here young earth creationists need protection from people talking about how evolution works.

For future reference you can feel free to make jokes about Canadians, Austrians, Germans, Central Canadians, Soldiers, Lawyers and any other group I belong to without worrying about offending me.  If I cannot laugh at myself perhaps it is me who has the problem.

That said their are bounds of good taste.  I don't think making jokes about say Germans and the Holocaust directly could be at all funny, but your joke didn't go anywhere near the boundary of good taste from my perspective.


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## Miskatonic (Aug 12, 2015)

TheCatholicCrow said:


> I would say it was a culturally insensitive joke. I could even see an argument be made that it was ignorant. But _racist_? As long as you honestly phrased it as innocently as you say, that seems like massive leap to conclusions and a very strong accusation. I guess some internet users are hypersensitive to the topic.
> 
> Sorry to hear about your account suspension. Is your entire account suspended or just your ability to post on forums? I've only ever played LOL so I can't speak for how WOW would work in this circumstance but my guess is that (with a little luck and a lot of groveling) you can challenge this with the administrators.



I'm well aware of the insensitivity of it, but it was indeed as innocently stated as I put it. I just had to laugh because they categorized it on the page that described the suspension as "Hate Speech (Racial)". 

I know damn well that if the comment had been on a post that was not directly related to a World of Warcraft PR thread it would have been ignored. They didn't want German fans seeing that and freaking out, hence their company image. Which of course is ironic given that the faith all players have in the company had plummeted and they've lost millions of subscribers in recent months because of their broken promises and outright lies.

To illustrate this further. There was a thread with the "N" word in full caps, fully spelled out, that was up longer than the post I made on that particular thread. Moral of the story is that their stormtroopers were watching that one like dogs and somehow completely oblivious to something that was extremely racist and created to be extremely racist and nothing else.

As far as access to the game, basically couldn't play for 24 hours or type on the forums. Complete nonsense. 

This is the first time I've ever had that issue there and I know that I've said more insensitive things in the past. Been posting their for years.


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## Miskatonic (Aug 12, 2015)

Svrtnsse said:


> Your joke is basically playing off some really bad stereotypes about German nationals as a people. You're also implying that if Germans get excited about something people should get worried because the Germans might go off trying to conquer the rest of Europe and start exterminating all the jews again.
> 
> EDIT: I work with a fair number of Germans, and most of them probably wouldn't have been too bothered by it - or at least not admitted to being bothered by it. Though if it's something they'd heard a lot, it'd probably be annoying. Kind of like blonde girls and blonde-jokes. /EDIT
> 
> ...



I am quite familiar with WWII history and everything that goes along with it. I'm aware of it being insensitive and stereotyping, but that's kind of the point with what a lot of ethnic/nation jokes do. 

I mean compared to what shows like South Park (A show that won an Emmy for an episode on WOW) or Family Guy portray, my little barb was harmless. 

Also you can take into context the general chat and trade channel chat that people have access to in game, which is a sewage pipe of crude jokes, racist comments, etc. The moral being that the playerbase of WOW is not made up of choir boys. 

I only mentioned my hair color and eyes because of the irony of me being accused of hate speech against a nation where those physical attributes were held in high esteem when a certain faction was in power. It just further adds to the humor of the situation. I mean can we assume that they for one instance thought it was hate speech because I was possibly not a white person making insensitive comments about a nation of white people? I think Hell would be opening up a ski resort first.


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## Miskatonic (Aug 12, 2015)

Russ said:


> Most of my family is Austrian, and at various times were German (the border where we were tended to get around a lot).
> 
> When hanging with Germans and we get joking about the rivalry between the two countries we often say "In Austria Hitler couldn't get a job, in Germany they  made him der Fuhrer."  The Germans seem to laugh along with it.
> 
> ...



All good points. I basically saw a thread where the OP was bashing Blizzard because of a lackluster showing for their "big reveal" and threw in some peanut gallery attempt at humor that wasn't all that funny and something I thought would pretty much be ignored. It was just a "ah what the hell" type moment. 

I have Polish roots on my mom's side so I'm very familiar with all the lame dumb Pollock jokes. Those don't bother me and I wouldn't go running to an admin or mod to have the person banned.


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## Miskatonic (Aug 12, 2015)

Amanita said:


> That’s the first time I hear of anyone being reprimanded for “racial hate speech” against Germans ever.



When are people ever really reprimanded for hate speech against white people in general? Other than some token "we are disturbed and saddened by these comments" denouncement.


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## Gryphos (Aug 12, 2015)

One thing to keep in mind is that while you personally would not be affected or hurt by the joke, you can't speak for everyone. You should always try to keep other people's feelings in mind and consider whether any joke/comment you make may be hurt them. Sometimes people say "It was just a joke. Why you gotta take it so seriously?" Well, thing is, people can't help taking things seriously. People don't have a switch in their brain saying 'turn feelings off'. So it's important to always keep other people in mind.


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## Trick (Aug 12, 2015)

I always thought the 'turn feelings off' switch was between the self- discipline and maturity buttons. 

Sent from my LG-H631 using Tapatalk


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## Miskatonic (Aug 12, 2015)

Gryphos said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that while you personally would not be affected or hurt by the joke, you can't speak for everyone. You should always try to keep other people's feelings in mind and consider whether any joke/comment you make may be hurt them. Sometimes people say "It was just a joke. Why you gotta take it so seriously?" Well, thing is, people can't help taking things seriously. People don't have a switch in their brain saying 'turn feelings off'. So it's important to always keep other people in mind.



Some people need to grow a thicker skin. Sometimes it's hard to accept and treat people like an adult if they are hypersensitive to things and make a big deal about whatever "offends" them.

As far as I'm concerned what I typed was extremely mild and it speaks more of the people that got so upset about than it does in my ability to be sensitive to other people's feelings. 

If people want to avoid being offended they should not read anything, hear anything or watch anything. They should just stay at home and hide under the covers.


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## Miskatonic (Aug 12, 2015)

Trick said:


> I always thought the 'turn feelings off' switch was between the self- discipline and maturity buttons.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H631 using Tapatalk



Exactly, it's always the people that "offended" someone that get taken to the woodshed. It's the status quo in society now. Everyone's part of a victim group that's being offended.


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## Gryphos (Aug 12, 2015)

Miskatonic said:
			
		

> Some people need to grow a thicker skin. Sometimes it's hard to accept and treat people like an adult if they are hypersensitive to things and make a big deal about whatever "offends" them.



Part of treating someone like an adult is respecting their sensitivities, not trying to beat it out of them. If you flick someone in the face (purposefully or not, considering that this time you were not aware that what you wrote would be considered hurtful) and they go 'ow, that hurts, please don't do that'. Are you really going to tell that person to grow a thicker skin? Maybe in your private sphere people don't mind being flicked in the face, but you _know_ they don't mind, so it's ok, as you're certain not to hurt anyone. But in a public sphere, you don't know how if people are going to mind being flicked. Better to not take the chance, and that way everyone's happy.

In this analogy the act of flicking would represent making a joke/comment which could feasibly and reasonably be considered insensitive. But that's a difficult thing to define. You can't always tell if what you say is going to be considered insensitive. Sometimes you'll make a mistake, you'll over/underestimate people's sensitivities. And that's fine, so long as afterwards you acknowledge the mistake you made and apologise. All that really matters is that thought is being given to what you say and how it could be interpreted.


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## Penpilot (Aug 12, 2015)

Russ said:


> Heck, apparently even here young earth creationists need protection from people talking about how evolution works.



WHAT? Is that what happened in that other thread?

What happened to any topic being fair game as long as the exchange is respectful, honest, and did not degenerate into personal attacks?




Miskatonic said:


> As far as I'm concerned what I typed was extremely mild and it speaks more of the people that got so upset about than it does in my ability to be sensitive to other people's feelings.



Anything can be taken to be offensive. I mean if I went up to a girl--should I be using the word woman instead? Anyway-- If I went up to a girl and said, "Hey good looking, what's cookin'," I'm sure someone could warp that and take it as me assuming that all females should be in the kitchen cooking.

What ever happened to the creed "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

When did it change to "I do not agree with what you have to say... SO STFU."


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## Gryphos (Aug 12, 2015)

Penpilot said:
			
		

> Anything can be taken to be offensive. I mean if I went up to a girl--should I be using the word woman instead? Anyway-- If I went up to a girl and said, "Hey good looking, what's cookin'," I'm sure someone could warp that and take it as me assuming that all females should be in the kitchen cooking.



It would be pretty creepy if you did go up to a random person and say that. But anyways, if some person did take your comment to mean something like that, you defend your comment by explaining that it didn't. That's the thing, people, you _can_ defend what you say. It's not like if someone challenges you on something, you have to accept it. If you disagree, then explain why. Tell them why you didn't think your comment meant what they thought it meant. Have an exchange, come to an understanding, communicate. It's not hard.



> What ever happened to the creed "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
> 
> When did it change to "I do not agree with what you have to say... SO STFU."



That phrase is only really applicable to situations with regards to two differing opinions being expressed. Any opinion can be expressed. Any opinion can be criticised. Any words can be said. Any words can be criticised. Any criticism can be criticised. If someone wants to make a racist comment, no one's stopping them. No one can stop them. Once that person says tat comment, people will probably tell them to shut the f*ck up. AT which point, the person who made the comment should defend their comment, defend their opinion and justify it. No one can ever be stopped from saying anything, only criticised for what they have said.


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## Incanus (Aug 12, 2015)

Russ said:


> Heck, apparently even here young earth creationists need protection from people talking about how evolution works.



For the most part, I’ve tried to be diplomatic on this site, and I’ve mostly not gotten involved in the more ‘heated’ discussions.  In general, I think it a good idea to not get into religion or politics here–mainly because I’d like to stay on topic:  the craft of writing.  That’s what I’m here for.

That said, my respect for this site has dropped a notch because of this.  Not that anyone might care one way or the other.  This strikes me as closer to being censorship than as avoiding controversy, though I’m perfectly willing to alter my view if presented with a sound argument.


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## Penpilot (Aug 12, 2015)

Gryphos said:


> It would be pretty creepy if you did go up to a random person and say that.



This, like many things, depends on context. Do this during a party and you may get a smile in return, or do this during a funeral and get tossed out on your ear. OR do this to someone who is looking to be offended and get accused of being a misogynist. 



Gryphos said:


> But anyways, if some person did take your comment to mean something like that, you defend your comment by explaining that it didn't. That's the thing, people, you _can_ defend what you say. It's not like if someone challenges you on something, you have to accept it. If you disagree, then explain why. Tell them why you didn't think your comment meant what they thought it meant. Have an exchange, come to an understanding, communicate. It's not hard.



Difficult to explain yourself when you get banned, no?



Gryphos said:


> That phrase is only really applicable to situations with regards to two differing opinions being expressed. Any opinion can be expressed. Any opinion can be criticised. Any words can be said. Any words can be criticised. Any criticism can be criticised. If someone wants to make a racist comment, no one's stopping them. No one can stop them. Once that person says tat comment, people will probably tell them to shut the f*ck up. AT which point, the person who made the comment should defend their comment, defend their opinion and justify it. No one can ever be stopped from saying anything, only criticised for what they have said.



Again, hard to do when following the phrase STFU they drop the ban hammer.


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## Miskatonic (Aug 12, 2015)

As far as being able to retort, it was the fastest I've ever seen a post removed. Probably took less than a minute and I had a notice pop up.

Like I said, it was in regards to a gamescom event in Germany where they had an official expansion release event, so any thread dealing with is probably going to be watched closely. I've posted more offensive things on there that never got me in any trouble. 

I honestly don't care all that much if someone got upset about it, as it was not done maliciously and it was extremely tame. If I had said something along the lines of "They were probably too busy daydreaming about gassing Jews and turning them into lampshades", then I would fully expect to be banned. Of course I wouldn't say that because I don't think it is funny or appropriate to post in any situation. There were flamewars going on between players in that thread that I would suspect that 99% of the people didn't care when they saw it. 

Like I said there was a thread titled N *GG** (Completely spelled out with no special characters) that had a whole bunch of hate speech written in the post that was up for several hours before it was taken down. There were probably 4 or 5 pages worth of replies to it, a lot of which were people wondering how the thread was still up. So apparently the mods were too busy picking their noses. I would expect stuff like that to be immediately deleted. 

I'm not overly concerned with the reactions of hypersensitive people. Some people are offended by everything and they just need to deal with their own issues, because I honestly could give a damn. 

All an admin had to do was PM me and tell me not to post stuff like that anymore and I would have begrudgingly agreed to their request. A 24 hour account ban was extreme and unnecessary, especially for someone who has been playing the game for years and has given them hundreds of dollars in subscription fees.


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## Miskatonic (Aug 12, 2015)

Incanus said:


> For the most part, I’ve tried to be diplomatic on this site, and I’ve mostly not gotten involved in the more ‘heated’ discussions.  In general, I think it a good idea to not get into religion or politics here—mainly because I’d like to stay on topic:  the craft of writing.  That’s what I’m here for.
> 
> That said, my respect for this site has dropped a notch because of this.  Not that anyone might care one way or the other.  This strikes me as closer to being censorship than as avoiding controversy, though I’m perfectly willing to alter my view if presented with a sound argument.



I strongly support the practice of keeping politics and similar subjects out of the creative process as I've only seen it poison things. I see this at pretty much all writing websites. It becomes more about using writing as some sort of tool for social/political crusading (as long as it's the change the self-appointed moral leaders find appropriate) and less about the craft of writing. People are more interested in telling others what they should or shouldn't write about, how they should or shouldn't develop their characters, the types of characters that need to be included, etc.


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## Incanus (Aug 12, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> I strongly support the practice of keeping politics and similar subjects out of the creative process as I've only seen it poison things. I see this at pretty much all writing websites. It becomes more about using writing as some sort of tool for social/political crusading (as long as it's the change the self-appointed moral leaders find appropriate) and less about the craft of writing. People are more interested in telling others what they should or shouldn't write about, how they should or shouldn't develop their characters, the types of characters that need to be included, etc.



Agreed.  I'm learning craft and using it to present my personal and unique vision of the world.  I'm not learning how to write to display someones else's beliefs/opinions.  That said, my stories aren't likely to bludgeon people with social or political philosophies.  Entertainment first and foremost, and hopefully a little sense of wonder.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 12, 2015)

Incanus said:


> Agreed. I'm learning craft and using it to present my personal and unique vision of the world. I'm not learning how to write to display someones else's beliefs/opinions. That said, my stories aren't likely to bludgeon people with social or political philosophies. Entertainment first and foremost, and hopefully a little sense of wonder.


Sounds like you've got your priorities straight.

Writing's a lot more likely to read authentically if you're honest about your beliefs (even if you're respectfully writing a character whose beliefs differ from yours). Every story has a message, and you have to be able to embrace it and believe in it as the writer; only then is there a chance your story will have any emotional impact on the reader.


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## Miskatonic (Aug 12, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Sounds like you've got your priorities straight.
> 
> Writing's a lot more likely to read authentically if you're honest about your beliefs (even if you're respectfully writing a character whose beliefs differ from yours). Every story has a message, and you have to be able to embrace it and believe in it as the writer; only then is there a chance your story will have any emotional impact on the reader.



I say make me care, make me want to know more about this person's plight, make me care about their welfare and their journey, but do so through solid writing and not thinly veiled political propaganda masquerading as literature.


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## Trick (Aug 12, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> I say make me care, make me want to know more about this person's plight, make me care about their welfare and their journey, but do so through solid writing and not thinly veiled political propaganda masquerading as literature.



Agreed. I gave up on a popular series because, a few books in, the political agenda that was always somewhat present become the main topic and just stopped being interesting. I even agreed with the agenda, but I think that made the soap box style attempts to convince me of it even more irritating. I was like, "Yeah, I agree, totally. So stop telling me already!"


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 12, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> I say make me care, make me want to know more about this person's plight, make me care about their welfare and their journey, but do so through solid writing and not thinly veiled political propaganda masquerading as literature.


Maybe I took something different from Incanus' post than you did. I didn't take his "personal and unique vision" to mean something necessarily political, based on the rest of his post, which ended on a note of "entertainment first and foremost."

"Thinly veiled political propaganda" is about as dishonest as you can get.

When I say "be honest," I mean for example, if I write a character who follows a Norse goddess and is supposed to be a good, likable person, I'm going to give her what I see as positive traits of a devout religious person. I'm not going to have her perform human sacrifices and stab people in the kneecap for mispronouncing the name of her goddess, for example, because that level of fanaticism doesn't fit in with my perspective of a good, likable religious person. I'm more likely to get my reader to relate to her the way I intend to because I can get behind that image of the character.

There's nothing wrong with giving that same character a crazy religious ritual that involves disemboweling her opponents on an altar. She is a barbarian. But in this case, I wouldn't see her as likable and good, so I wouldn't expect many readers to see her that way. I'd expect readers (not all—it's never all—but likely a significant portion of them) to see her as a psychotic zealot because that would be my perspective.


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## Miskatonic (Aug 13, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Maybe I took something different from Incanus' post than you did. I didn't take his "personal and unique vision" to mean something necessarily political, based on the rest of his post, which ended on a note of "entertainment first and foremost."



I was talking about stories in general, not specifically what Icanus posted. I probably shouldn't have quoted, just posted my thoughts.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 13, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> I was talking about stories in general, not specifically what Icanus posted. I probably shouldn't have quoted, just posted my thoughts.


Ah, got it. Thanks for clarifying.

I also felt the need to clarify last night, since I could see how his post and mine could be taken to mean subtly inserting personal opinions. I think we all agree that it kills the fun.


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## Incanus (Aug 13, 2015)

I think we're all basically agreed.  I also just wanted to clarify what I meant by "personal and unique vision", which could come off as pretty bombastic.  I mean it only in the sense that every individual on the planet is unique, and not that my uniqueness is in any way special or more worthy.

When writing, I think we need not necessarily heap on our personal opinions consciously, deliberately--I think our individuality will make it into the text one way or another, sooner or later, without much effort.  Really, how could it not?


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## Miskatonic (Aug 14, 2015)

Incanus said:


> I think we're all basically agreed.  I also just wanted to clarify what I meant by "personal and unique vision", which could come off as pretty bombastic.  I mean it only in the sense that every individual on the planet is unique, and not that my uniqueness is in any way special or more worthy.
> 
> When writing, I think we need not necessarily heap on our personal opinions consciously, deliberately--I think our individuality will make it into the text one way or another, sooner or later, without much effort.  Really, how could it not?



I think it's a balance (surprise, surprise). You show some of your personal viewpoints but then also suppress them to get a better understanding of the characters who have beliefs you aren't familiar with or that merely differ from yours. You also have to make a conscious choice, if for instance you create a villain, that you aren't purposely making them a villain as a way to demonize other ideas. If it fits into the story then so be it, but at least give a fair shake when applicable. 

For example; I may portray a type of government I don't agree with, but I can show how they try to convince people that it is beneficial for humanity, while perhaps using certain characters to demonstrate why this may not be so.


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