# A woman you can believe in



## Aidan of the tavern (May 6, 2012)

OK, so the other day after reading the book I was reading a review for Gardens of the Moon (I do that for some strange reason, read the book and then the reviews) and one reviewer criticised Erikson for "lack of believable female characters".  Frankly I was slightly shocked as I had found Tattersail to be one of the most engaging and endearing female characters I had read for a while, but it got me wondering what chance I had in the murky writer's world.  So, female Scribes especially, but perceptive males as well, when you're reading, what makes a female character believable for you?  I've always tried to give even the warriors some level of emotional depth, but I'm not really the most qualified on the subject.  Opinions?


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## Kelise (May 6, 2012)

Hrm. I don't think I believe in making a character believably female, but simply make all characters believable in their own right, regardless of gender. 

I can't really say that a female character is only believable if she has children or is emotional and so forth. As long as you set up reasons for their abilities and actions - she can be a fantastic fighter or a good cook as long as she has training/knack/some sort of magic, the same as a male character.

I can only suggest that some writers may seem to think female characters can be left how they are, rather than try to think of how to push and craft them to be far more. Female characters are easily sidelined to be the damsel in distress, worriers/fretting over every event, medics, love interest or something to chase... and that's all they have to be in the story. Then you're in danger of them not being believable, if they're there for the sake of easy plot and not a character of their own right.


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## The Dark One (May 6, 2012)

There seems to be a bit of hysteria in recent times on this and (more so) another writing forum I occasionally visit regarding writing female characters. The instant you start to theorise about it you're going to upset god-knows-how-many people - even worse, if you write said characters trying to be believable or politically correct or even handed or whatever, you'll be constructing a manifesto instead of writing your story. People your story with whatever characters work for you and don't worry about trying to please the various factions. If you write genuine characters who have a real impact on the plot then readers will be too busy enjoying the story to bother criticising your socio-political faux pas.


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## Aidan of the tavern (May 6, 2012)

The Dark One said:


> There seems to be a bit of hysteria in recent times on this and (more so) another writing forum I occasionally visit regarding writing female characters. The instant you start to theorise about it you're going to upset god-knows-how-many people - even worse, if you write said characters trying to be believable or politically correct or even handed or whatever, you'll be constructing a manifesto instead of writing your story. People your story with whatever characters work for you and don't worry about trying to please the various factions. If you write genuine characters who have a real impact on the plot then readers will be too busy enjoying the story to bother criticising your socio-political faux pas.



Phew!  Thank you!

I suppose my main fear is creating characters who seem like cardboard templates or something.


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## The Dark One (May 6, 2012)

Everyone's different, so whatever works for you is the best way. When I'm constructing my story plan I sometimes write little character sketches about important characters. These sketches will never be used in the book, they just help me to get to know the characters in intimate detail and hopefully that comes out in the teling of the tale. The more real the characters are in your head, the better developed they will be on the page.

On another level - there is no point creating a character unless he or she actually matters. Every character of greater than cannon-fodder significance must have some real impact on the story. The more important the character, the greater impact they should have. A female (or male) sidekick/love interest who just tags along for the ride but who doesn't actually matter (ie wrest the story away from the main character from time to time) is not worth writing.

Every new character is a chance to twist the plot. Do so, and your characters will never be cardboard cut-outs. Or at least, if they are, no-one will notice.


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## Aidan of the tavern (May 6, 2012)

The Dark One said:


> Everyone's different, so whatever works for you is the best way. When I'm constructing my story plan I sometimes write little character sketches about important characters. These sketches will never be used in the book, they just help me to get to know the characters in intimate detail and hopefully that comes out in the teling of the tale. The more real the characters are in your head, the better developed they will be on the page.
> 
> On another level - there is no point creating a character unless he or she actually matters. Every character of greater than cannon-fodder significance must have some real impact on the story. The more important the character, the greater impact they should have. A female (or male) sidekick/love interest who just tags along for the ride but who doesn't actually matter (ie wrest the story away from the main character from time to time) is not worth writing.
> 
> Every new character is a chance to twist the plot. Do so, and your characters will never be cardboard cut-outs. Or at least, if they are, no-one will notice.



Yes, I write little page-long bios for my characters and it helps a lot, I think having the background info even if you don't use it is good for confidence when dealing with them.


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## Amanita (May 6, 2012)

I’m more worried about my male characters offending someone. 

But seriously, there are indeed a few issues especially concerning female characters:

The character’s behaviour should make sense in the context of her society. This applies to males as well, but in case of females, it’s more often ignored. Too many authors use patriarchal societies and female main characters who rebell against them, go out fighting despite of it and succed with no logical reason besides the writer’s own beliefs. 
Everyone who wants to have prominent female characters or even a female main character should give these things a bit of thought beforehand. 
He can have a strictly patriarchal society, but then his main character won’t be at the front line. There are plenty of interesting and plot-worthy things women in medieval Europe and other patriarchal cultures could do, but they usually aren’t battle. Magic might offer even more.
Nothing bad in my opinion, fantasy severely lacks plots which consist of something other than fighting the Dark Lord’s undead army with swords. 
If you do want an accepted fighting heroine, the gender roles should be different. This implies a bit of extra work with world-building to explain it well enough that readers who suddenly care about „historical accuracy“ when it’s about women staying in their „proper place“ will be satisfied. (Other issues such as the strong religious beliefs of pre-modern societies matter far, far less.)  If you want to satisfy those at all…
Special females acting against their gender roles can be done well too, of course, but in such cases, good research about similar real life cases is in order as well to stay away from cliche.

Authors (usually female) who want to get their personal revenge via their character, because they’re about discrimination in historical times or in their current life aren’t likely to write believable female character either. 
This doesn’t work well at all, personal feelings about such issues shouldn’t harm the story telling. This goes for perfect matriarchies, nature loving and gentle women against evil men and anything like that too.
By the way, have the courage to make women evil as well. Being drawn to power and/or violence isn’t exclusively male, no matter how often this is claimed. And not every evil woman is driven by an evil man either.


Another issue ensues if an author wants two things at once, most often „feminist and equal“ fighting woman and damsell in distress. This (probably unintentionally in most cases) makes be believe as a reader that the author wants to claim that women might try to succed in tradionally male fields but are bound to fail.

Personally I like the approach of having different societies with different gender roles existing side by side. This way, fighting women and damsells in distress can both turn up in the story depending on the circumstances.  
In this case, preaching about how one society is good and the other is evil should be avoided too however.


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## Hans (May 6, 2012)

You have some good points, Amanita.
The character, both male and female should be believable within the borders of it's own culture. We as fantasy authors have the luxury of being able to define these borders.

When I read a critic like "A woman would never behave like that" I commonly replace that with "An American woman would not behave like that". Well, I am not writing about American woman. Honestly I do not know all that much about American culture. The last time I read someone going on about "our culture" it was not the culture I grew up in. Had to be American, because that was the nationality of the author. I do not know for sure.
Marco Polo also got some "women do not behave like that" regarding his travel reports. So I think whoever uses that argument lacks imagination or needs to broaden their horizon.

We have examples of fighting woman on earth. Even medieval individuals fit into that. So that is nothing strange or unbelievable.

Also, I do not like black and white settings with clear defined good and evil and nothing in between which you too say are too abundant. but that is a completely different topic.


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## Aidan of the tavern (May 6, 2012)

Amanita said:


> I’m more worried about my male characters offending someone.
> 
> But seriously, there are indeed a few issues especially concerning female characters:
> 
> ...



Many thanks, your wise words are very helpful.  

In my world human society is quite fragmented and varied, so gender roles are obviously varied as well.  There are quite a few women in positions of power or going side by side with the men, such as nobles, political activists, tacticians and even some who chose to serve in the defense force.  As a rule I try to avoid damsels in distress as a permanent role, and will only use it if it actually makes sense in the context of the story, or if they are strong characters anyway.  I also try to get a balance, like how one of my female characters is a skilled archer and can certainly hold her own in a fight, but is also seen sympathising and caring for the male mentor figure.


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## Steerpike (May 6, 2012)

starconstant said:


> Hrm. I don't think I believe in making a character believably female, but simply make all characters believable in their own right, regardless of gender.



Yes, this is exactly right. If the character is well-developed (and I think Tattersail was) and someone comes along and says it isn't a believable female, they have their own prejudices and stereotypes regarding what a female has to be like.


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## Ailith (May 6, 2012)

Like Shrek (and onions), people have layers. The more rounded, full and complex a character, the more believable they are _as a person. _ This shouldn't be tied to gender alone. 

What makes characters (female and male) unbelievable for me is when they exist to do only one thing: to be the wise-cracking comic relief, to be a fighting machine, to devote their every waking moment to loving and thinking about one other person, etc.


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## Aidan of the tavern (May 6, 2012)

Ailith said:


> Like Shrek (and onions), people have layers. The more rounded, full and complex a character, the more believable they are _as a person. _ This shouldn't be tied to gender alone.
> 
> What makes characters (female and male) unbelievable for me is when they exist to do only one thing: to be the wise-cracking comic relief, to be a fighting machine, to devote their every waking moment to loving and thinking about one other person, etc.



I agree.  In fact I made a point of making sure that the amusing guy in my group was actually useful as well, not just of those guys who you wonder why they're going on the journey in the first place.


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## ascanius (May 6, 2012)

Amanita said:


> If you do want an accepted fighting heroine, the gender roles should be different.



What do you mean by that?



Amanita said:


> By the way, have the courage to make women evil as well. Being drawn to power and/or violence isn’t exclusively male, no matter how often this is claimed. And not every evil woman is driven by an evil man either.



One of my antagonists is a woman, and i think the most despicable of them all.


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## Ghost (May 6, 2012)

'Kay. I haven't read that book, Aiden of the tavern. My points probably won't relate to that book, but I'll take a crack at it anyway. Here are some things that take away from believability for me.

All the women's activities are centered on men, especially a male main character. (It's sort of like the Bechdel test, but I'm not as strict.) A woman is only mentioned because she's someone he's hot for or perhaps she's married or related to someone the male MC knows. The less the male MC is interested in her sexually, the more her odds for being ugly and/or old go up. The women have no concerns outside of men. No friendships, no aspirations, no motives. They aren't fun and there's nothing to them outside of their relations with men. They're hollow.

Of course there are settings and situations where women aren't likely to take part. Nobody needs to fill a random quota. I don't read too many books where the focus is on men and what's manly, but there are ways to do it without making the character's beliefs about women reflect reality. It's also okay to have a woman whose life is strongly affected by the men in it. But when there are women and they have no defining traits except for their relationships with men, I can't relate to them or see them as complete.

Another problem is the sexuality of women. There are books where a female character can't be mentioned without hints of her sexuality attached. Her breasts are _this_ big. She's a prostitute or a slut. She's a virgin. She's a mother and, thus, asexual because mothers don't have sex. (How does that make sense?!) The other characters' sex lives aren't explained in detail, but once a woman is in the story, it's Very Important Information. I don't read a book and wonder about the male characters' sexual histories. Why should this matter for women?

I also hate to see the females characters in a book portrayed as dumb, weak, and helpless. I never ever ever treat all of my male characters the same way. They are not the same person. Neither gender should be shown as having a single personality to share amongst themselves.

I don't live the lives any of my characters live. My approach to each, man or woman, is the same. Imagine I grew up in the same environments they did and had the personalities they do. I'm not sure how else to do it or if my approach even works, but if you're looking at a character primarily as a woman or a stand-in for fantasies rather than viewing her as a whole person...well, good luck with that.


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## Steerpike (May 6, 2012)

Amanita said:


> Being drawn to power and/or violence isn’t exclusively male, no matter how often this is claimed. And not every evil woman is driven by an evil man either.



Read _Best Served Cold_ and let me know what you think of the main character, Monza Murcatto.


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## The Dark One (May 7, 2012)

Obviously this is a subject that inspires passionate views...

To be honest, I've never really reflected on my female characters much (until this same question came up on another forum) and it strikes me that there is a lot of sex and sexualised women in my stories...but also men. I go where the stories need to go and where the characters take me. I never include a character who doesn't have a real impact on the plot and even the sex must work on multiple levels. I even have lesbian nazis in my most recently published novel and challenge anyone to suggest that these women are not well rounded characters with an important contribution to the plot, the themes and subthemes.

And before you suggest that the women in my stories might be some sort of offensive sexist cartoon, wait till you see the men! What a bunch of pathetic losers.

All my characters are offensive and useless on multiple levels, but they always have one redeeming feature and they all matter.

Quit worrying and start writing.


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## Aidan of the tavern (May 7, 2012)

Ouroboros said:


> 'Kay. I haven't read that book, Aiden of the tavern. My points probably won't relate to that book, but I'll take a crack at it anyway. Here are some things that take away from believability for me.
> 
> All the women's activities are centered on men, especially a male main character. (It's sort of like the Bechdel test, but I'm not as strict.) A woman is only mentioned because she's someone he's hot for or perhaps she's married or related to someone the male MC knows. The less the male MC is interested in her sexually, the more her odds for being ugly and/or old go up. The women have no concerns outside of men. No friendships, no aspirations, no motives. They aren't fun and there's nothing to them outside of their relations with men. They're hollow.
> 
> ...



You have some interesting points.  

I used Erikson merely as a loose example, and no doubt the majority of characters, male or female, will divide opinions.  I'm very careful about not portraying women as weak or anything, but this also leads me to not dare write about certain issues such as rape etc.


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## Steerpike (May 7, 2012)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> I'm very careful about not portraying women as weak or anything, but this also leads me to not dare write about certain issues such as rape etc.



This is a problem, though. Some women are weak. So are some men. And there are plenty of strong men and women. If you are unwilling to ever portray a woman as weak, then you're not really staying true to the human experience, which tells us that there are plenty of weak men and women around (and plenty of strong ones).

I also see no reason not to address something like rape, if it is pertinent to your story. Again, this is something that exists as part of what we humans are. It is a nasty, evil part of humanity, but a part of it nonetheless. Why put it off limits?


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## Mindfire (May 7, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> This is a problem, though. Some women are weak. So are some men. And there are plenty of strong men and women. If you are unwilling to ever portray a woman as weak, then you're not really staying true to the human experience, which tells us that there are plenty of weak men and women around (and plenty of strong ones).
> 
> I also see no reason not to address something like rape, if it is pertinent to your story. Again, this is something that exists as part of what we humans are. It is a nasty, evil part of humanity, but a part of it nonetheless. Why put it off limits?



Well, if you don't think your authorial skills are up to the challenge of handling a subject like rape in a satisfyingly mature and tasteful manner (is there ever really a "tasteful" way to handle rape?), then it's best you leave it alone, which is why I won't touch rape with a 10-ft pole. Heavy subjects like that are not to be trifled with. If you're going to do it, you'd better make sure you do it well.


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## Steerpike (May 7, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Well, if you don't think your authorial skills are up to the challenge of handling a subject like rape in a satisfyingly mature and tasteful manner (is there ever really a "tasteful" way to handle rape?), then it's best you leave it alone, which is why I won't touch rape with a 10-ft pole. Heavy subjects like that are not to be trifled with. If you're going to do it, you'd better make sure you do it well.



I agree, one should stay within the realm of what one can deal with effectively as a writer. I wouldn't avoid it simply out of fear of putting a female character in a weak position, however.


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## Ghost (May 7, 2012)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> I used Erikson merely as a loose example, and no doubt the majority of characters, male or female, will divide opinions.  I'm very careful about not portraying women as weak or anything, but this also leads me to not dare write about certain issues such as rape etc.



My post was getting superlong, so I stopped before I got to a few points. Some readers just aren't happy. For all we know, the reader saw the author's name and went into the book thinking, "Men can't write women." Or the reader could've interpreted certain situations through a narrow lense, thinking "*I* wouldn't do this, so no woman in the entire world would do this." Both of those opinions are silly. Perhaps the reviewer had a point, perhaps not.

It's okay to have a weak woman, even several, because people can be weak in different ways. One woman might be afraid of her husband, another might be more afraid of what society thinks of her, one might be easily influenced and lack her own convictions, and one might be timid and hesitating. I just prefer for them to be more than wilting flowers or sex objects. When thought goes into their circumstances, it goes a long way. I guess that would be hard to do if no women are main characters or secondary characters. I like reading about strong-willed women, but they can't all be strong-willed, either.

I ought to say that I do enjoy some books with unbelievable characters. In my limited reading of the genres, historical romance and paranormal romance often feature female characters whose lives revolve around men and those female characters are weak, helpless and bland. I see the prostitute/virgin thing more often in works by men, but the rest of my complaints were pulled from novels by either gender.

While I can read books like that for fun, I don't look to them for compelling insights or to be moved. I don't remember the characters, only the plot. They're fluff and that's fine.


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## Anders Ã„mting (May 8, 2012)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> what makes a female character believable for you?



I dunno, probably the same thing that makes _male _character believable.


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## ascanius (May 9, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> I also see no reason not to address something like rape, if it is pertinent to your story. Again, this is something that exists as part of what we humans are. It is a nasty, evil part of humanity, but a part of it nonetheless. Why put it off limits?



I totally agree with this.  There is rape in my story.  I will say that having been personally affected by it that it should be done with taste and caution.  Educate yourself on it before you write, it is not simple nor something that someone just "gets over."  It has a lasting impact on people, and many times you are not aware that it even happened.  I think it is a subject where the writer has a duty to accurately portray it.  To not do so only furthers the notion that it is a trifle matter that is easily gotten over.  the CDC estimates that 1 in 4 girls will experience a sexual assault in their lives.  Men also get raped, though their numbers (are very close to that of girls) are difficult to come by because they rarely ever report or talk about it.  What I am saying is don't write it from ignorance or the way you view rape now.  Give those who have been through it the respect and honor they deserve, don't belittle what happened to them by inaccurate portrayals.  rape is the violation of the soul, everything a person is and to say that they wake up the next day unaffected I find disgusting, some do but...  What happens is always downplayed, even in everyday society.  If you are going to portray it portray the truth for what it is, how it affects those people.


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## shangrila (May 9, 2012)

I agree. I have a rape scene in my story but I know it's getting axed in the second draft. If you can't do it well, don't do it at all. At least, not with work you want to show/sell to others.


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## The Dark One (May 9, 2012)

ascanius said:


> I totally agree with this.  There is rape in my story.  I will say that having been personally affected by it that it should be done with taste and caution.  Educate yourself on it before you write, it is not simple nor something that someone just "gets over."  It has a lasting impact on people, and many times you are not aware that it even happened.  I think it is a subject where the writer has a duty to accurately portray it.  To not do so only furthers the notion that it is a trifle matter that is easily gotten over.  the CDC estimates that 1 in 4 girls will experience a sexual assault in their lives.  Men also get raped, though their numbers (are very close to that of girls) are difficult to come by because they rarely ever report or talk about it.  What I am saying is don't write it from ignorance or the way you view rape now.  Give those who have been through it the respect and honor they deserve, don't belittle what happened to them by inaccurate portrayals.  rape is the violation of the soul, everything a person is and to say that they wake up the next day unaffected I find disgusting, some do but...  What happens is always downplayed, even in everyday society.  If you are going to portray it portray the truth for what it is, how it affects those people.




I'm going to have to disagree with this - to an extent anyway. Within your context, Acsanius, I'm sure you're right, but there are other contexts. For example, rape can be funny. Do you remember the opening scene to Terry Gilliam's Erik the Viking? The Vikings raid the village and all the women are getting raped except for gormless Erik's victim who gets impatient and complains that he's hopeless.

In real life, rape is horrific, but let's not lose sight of the fact that we're talking about writing and (IMHO) writing is always (on some level) about entertaining, stretching, challenging, inverting and subverting. Context is infinite.


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## ascanius (May 10, 2012)

@ The Dark One.  *RAPE IS NEVER FUNNY*.  What it's funny to be haunted night and day with the constant fear that the person is going to come back and do it to you again?  What it's funny to have to relive the experience over and over again when you see the smallest thing that reminds you of what happened?  It's funny to live believing that you deserved it, that you asked for it, that you wanted it?  It's funny blaming yourself for something that you had no control over.  Funny that friends don't understand whats it's like and make comments like, "your still not over that."  Funny that you live in constant shame over what happened.  Oh yes very funny, I'm laughing my ass off.  Yes let's lessen what happens to people on a daily basis by making it "funny."  Lets make it a joke, great idea.  Lets treat it like something that's no big deal, invalidate something terrible that happens to others for the sake of humor.  *[Edited by starconstant for graphic imagery and harsh language.]*


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## Feo Takahari (May 10, 2012)

^^, ^: Okay, not walking into that.

I think there are multiple issues at hand here. For instance, a believable character can still be an unlikeable character, a weak character, and/or a bad role model. In order to determine exactly which of those you need to avoid, you need to determine what you're trying to do. (For instance, if you're writing a story about horrible people doing awful things to each other, it may actually be to your advantage to portray one particular female character as having bought into a cultural narrative of what women can't do, then show how her weakness and refusal to take responsibility for herself leads to her doom.)


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## The Dark One (May 10, 2012)

Sigh...as I said: in real life, rape is horrific. But we're not talking about real life. We're talking about writing, and what's more we're talking about fantasy writing where authors ought to be stretching their readers with challenging ideas.

I'm devastated for you if you (or someone close to you) has been violated in real life...but this is a writing (and hopefully free thinking) forum and you cannot expect a bunch of writers to think the same way you do about the craft of storytelling and the way they challenge their characters.

In case you were wondering, there are no rape scenes in my books.


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## Kelise (May 10, 2012)

I believe this is a subject we should move on from for now, and return back to the original topic. Let's please remember to try and be as understanding as possible with these delicate topics and try to understand that while it is possible for one person to find a certain topic funny, others simply won't, no matter who wrote it or how they handled it.

As an aside, this is also true for religion, young children being hurt, animals being hurt and probably a few others. Some people can read books including them in different aspects, and some simply can't. We may be a writing forum, but we also have to be respectful whilst discussing them.

This particular topic is known as 'trigger' topic *for a reason*, and let's please try to have respect for those who have been deeply effected by them.


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## JCFarnham (May 10, 2012)

Discussion is fine. If such talk can go at least a little way to educating against, highlighting evil and dealing with a problem inherent in society, then I personally welcome the discussion of difficult topics. Writing should address this and more. That is after all what it's there for right?

What isn't okay is harsh language. I don't find it impossible under any circumstance to use objective, civil words to solve a dispute. Sometimes it's difficult to see through the haze of rage. I understand. Sometimes it's incredibly therapeutic to use language like that (so says the legend that is Stephen Fry). I agree and I understand. I just don't want such things clogging up and derailing decent, honest threads. 

Rape isn't cool. We just need to be mature about these things.

I'm not going to issue any formal action this time, but if I do at any time you can be sure it's to allow any future offending parties the chance to cool off and not a personal attack.


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## Aidan of the tavern (May 10, 2012)

starconstant said:


> I believe this is a subject we should move on from for now, and return back to the original topic. Let's please remember to try and be as understanding as possible with these delicate topics and try to understand that while it is possible for one person to find a certain topic funny, others simply won't, no matter who wrote it or how they handled it.
> 
> As an aside, this is also true for religion, young children being hurt, animals being hurt and probably a few others. Some people can read books including them in different aspects, and some simply can't. We may be a writing forum, but we also have to be respectful whilst discussing them.
> 
> This particular topic is known as 'trigger' topic *for a reason*, and let's please try to have respect for those who have been deeply effected by them.



With all due respect good Moderator, I believe the topic is relevent to this thread, so long as it remains considered, respectful and mature.


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## Aidan of the tavern (May 10, 2012)

The Dark One said:


> Sigh...as I said: in real life, rape is horrific. But we're not talking about real life. We're talking about writing, and what's more we're talking about fantasy writing where authors ought to be stretching their readers with challenging ideas.
> 
> I'm devastated for you if you (or someone close to you) has been violated in real life...but this is a writing (and hopefully free thinking) forum and you cannot expect a bunch of writers to think the same way you do about the craft of storytelling and the way they challenge their characters.
> 
> In case you were wondering, there are no rape scenes in my books.



I object to that. With the exception of deliberately warped or humourous prose, writing, including fantasy, is very much a reflection of human nature and life.  I have to agree with Ascanius, I do not find rape funny in any way, and while I can respect you as a writer it seems to me that you take the stance that writing is a far cry from reality.  Sorry if I misinterpret, but while we are dealing with free-thinking, human characters I strongly disagree.


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## Steerpike (May 10, 2012)

I think on some level if you're going out of your way to figure out how to write a female different from a male, you've already moved down the wrong path. You should be figuring out how to write your character. Sure, there are generalized differences between males and females, but even in a general sense we're more alike than different, and on an individual level there is so much overlap that if you created a line with stereotypically female characterizations on one end and stereotypically male characterizations on the other, you'd find real people of both sexes at all points along the line. So I just focus on the character.


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## Steerpike (May 10, 2012)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> I object to that. With the exception of deliberately warped or humourous prose, writing, including fantasy, is very much a reflection of human nature and life.  I have to agree with Ascanius, I do not find rape funny in any way, and while I can respect you as a writer it seems to me that you take the stance that writing is a far cry from reality.  Sorry if I misinterpret, but while we are dealing with free-thinking, human characters I strongly disagree.



I understand what The Dark One is trying to say, though I can certainly see where people would object. Take Monty Python, for example. In _The Life of Brian_, Brian's mother is trying to explain to him who his father is. And she starts telling about the Roman centurions who occupied their town. Brian says "You mean you were raped?" Brian's mother says "Well, at first...."

That's generally taken to be a humorous exchange (doesn't work well typing it out, but if you've seen it you know what I mean). So I think in that respect The Dark One notes correctly that the subject is something that has been incorporated into humor for probably as long as humans have been creating humor. The use of it in Monty Python isn't meant as a statement about rape in real life, or as a diminishment of what women go through. Instead, it is a reflection on an absurd character, which is what Brian's mother is throughout. To me, it is so far beyond having a connection to the real issue of rape, that is can't be taken as any sort of commentary on it. If that makes sense.


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## JCFarnham (May 10, 2012)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> With all due respect good Moderator, I believe the topic is relevent to this thread, so long as it remains considered, respectful and mature.



Aye. And as I indicated I for one will allow it to continue, as you said, with consideration, respect and maturity.


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## Aidan of the tavern (May 10, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> I understand what The Dark One is trying to say, though I can certainly see where people would object. Take Monty Python, for example. In _The Life of Brian_, Brian's mother is trying to explain to him who his father is. And she starts telling about the Roman centurions who occupied their town. Brian says "You mean you were raped?" Brian's mother says "Well, at first...."
> 
> That's generally taken to be a humorous exchange (doesn't work well typing it out, but if you've seen it you know what I mean). So I think in that respect The Dark One notes correctly that the subject is something that has been incorporated into humor for probably as long as humans have been creating humor. The use of it in Monty Python isn't meant as a statement about rape in real life, or as a diminishment of what women go through. Instead, it is a reflection on an absurd character, which is what Brian's mother is throughout. To me, it is so far beyond having a connection to the real issue of rape, that is can't be taken as any sort of commentary on it. If that makes sense.



I'm a Python fan myself, and I enjoy a bit of black humour.  The thing is though Python is exageratedly ridiculous to the point where it loses believability as something normal happening outside your window, therefore it has that as a kind of safety net because there's no way anyones going to take it as a serious statement.  Also that joke was still a sly reference, where as if it had been anything more blatant it would have gone wrong.  Serious fantasy however still aims to be believable and therefore needs handling diferently in my opinion, so while I can agree with you I still stand by my previous post.


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## Steerpike (May 10, 2012)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> I'm a Python fan myself, and I enjoy a bit of black humour.  The thing is though Python is exageratedly ridiculous to the point where it loses believability as something normal happening outside your window, therefore it has that as a kind of safety net because there's no way anyones going to take it as a serious statement.  Also that joke was still a sly reference, where as if it had been anything more blatant it would have gone wrong.  Serious fantasy however still aims to be believable and therefore needs handling diferently in my opinion, so while I can agree with you I still stand by my previous post.



Yes, I don't disagree with anything you say here. And I do think in a serious work, the subject has to be approached in a way appropriate to the work. It's tough. I have a tentative rape (though the actual rape isn't depicted...the scene just ends when the young man forces the woman down and approaches her), and the dilemma posed by it is that I want to redeem this character by the end of the work. So I may cut this scene, I don't know.


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## Kit (May 10, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Brian says "You mean you were raped?" Brian's mother says "Well, at first...."
> .



A serious problem I had with the HBO version of Game Of Thrones was Dani's wedding night. In the book, the fact that Drogo had a surprising gentle side on that occasion was pivotal, IMHO. In the miniseries, that was cut and it did seem more like a rape. If there's anything garanteed to get my goat more than chainmail bikinis, it's books/tv shows where women fall in love with their rapists. If only because it sends a really bad message to young people.


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## Steerpike (May 10, 2012)

The story line where a woman falls in love with her rapist is hard for me to take seriously as well. Has it ever happened in the history of human kind? Who knows. Truth can be stranger than fiction. It doesn't ring true for me in a piece of fiction. I do differ on a minor point there at the end, though - I don't think a certain approach should be avoided, or a work changed, because it might send a bad message to young people. Particularly when the work is intended for adults.


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## Kit (May 10, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> The story line where a woman falls in love with her rapist is hard for me to take seriously as well. Has it ever happened in the history of human kind? Who knows.



Unfortunately, yes. It happens a lot. Way too often. There are countless women in relationships with abusive men, who mistreat them sometimes up to and including repeated rape.  



Steerpike said:


> Truth can be stranger than fiction. It doesn't ring true for me in a piece of fiction. I do differ on a minor point there at the end, though - I don't think a certain approach should be avoided, or a work changed, because it might send a bad message to young people. Particularly when the work is intended for adults.



Normally I'd agree with that sentiment- I'm a staunch anti-censorship advocate- but this one is a really difficult issue for me. The ROMANTICIZING of falling in love with one's rapist- as if it's some kind of noble and beautiful thing- ugh. It just leaves a really foul taste in my mouth.


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## Steerpike (May 10, 2012)

Kit said:


> Unfortunately, yes. There are countless women in relationships with abusive men, who mistreat them sometimes up to and including repeated rape.



Ah...yes. I worked with a shelter for battered women and saw this as well. I was thinking more along the lines of a stranger rape, where there is no prior relationship between the two, but where the woman later falls in love with the rapist. I haven't seen that particular scenario in real life, but I guess it has probably happened in the past.

I agree with the "ugh" factor on your second point as well. I wouldn't censor it, but I share your sentiment on how well it works (i.e. not at all).


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## Mindfire (May 10, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> I think on some level if you're going out of your way to figure out how to write a female different from a male, you've already moved down the wrong path. You should be figuring out how to write your character. Sure, there are generalized differences between males and females, but even in a general sense we're more alike than different, and on an individual level there is so much overlap that if you created a line with stereotypically female characterizations on one end and stereotypically male characterizations on the other, you'd find real people of both sexes at all points along the line. So I just focus on the character.



Not necessarily true. There are subtle differences between how men and women characters should be written. Sometimes a reader can pick up on these unconsciously. You read something a character says/does it and it just seems... off. The differences are hard to quantify, but they're there.


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## ascanius (May 10, 2012)

@ The Dark One.  I want to apologize for the harsh language and personal attack it wasn't the right way to go about it.



starconstant said:


> This particular topic is known as 'trigger' topic *for a reason*, and let's please try to have respect for those who have been deeply effected by them.



I should have thought about that.  To anyone who understands what I mean I'm sorry if I did trigger.



JCFarnham said:


> Discussion is fine. If such talk can go at least a little way to educating against, highlighting evil and dealing with a problem inherent in society, then I personally welcome the discussion of difficult topics. Writing should address this and more. That is after all what it's there for right?





Aidan of the tavern said:


> With all due respect good Moderator, I believe the topic is relevent to this thread, so long as it remains considered, respectful and mature.



I agree.  I think this subject should be discussed.



Steerpike said:


> That's generally taken to be a humorous exchange (doesn't work well typing it out, but if you've seen it you know what I mean). So I think in that respect The Dark One notes correctly that the subject is something that has been incorporated into humor for probably as long as humans have been creating humor. The use of it in Monty Python isn't meant as a statement about rape in real life, or as a diminishment of what women go through. Instead, it is a reflection on an absurd character, which is what Brian's mother is throughout. To me, it is so far beyond having a connection to the real issue of rape, that is can't be taken as any sort of commentary on it. If that makes sense.



I understand what The Dark One was saying.  I don't know how to explain why I think it is wrong to treat rape with humor, nor why I acted like that.  I saw red.  I know it's not intended to diminish what happened.  And I don't think anyone will understand why I feel the way I do unless you have been personally affected by it, yourself or the ones you love, I HOPE THAT NEVER HAPPENS TO ANY OF YOU.



Kit said:


> Unfortunately, yes. It happens a lot. Way too often. There are countless women in relationships with abusive men.
> 
> Normally I'd agree with that sentiment- I'm a staunch anti-censorship advocate- but this one is a really difficult issue for me. The ROMANTICIZING of falling in love with one's rapist- as if it's some kind of noble and beautiful thing- ugh. It just leaves a really foul taste in my mouth.



There are many reasons why they "fall in love", if you can call it that, with the perpetrator.  It happens a lot, so does returning to the perpetrator especially in the case of CSA.  Women are not the only ones who are rapped or stuck in these terrible situations don't forget that.  Nor are women always innocent, just like men they can manipulate and abuse others, male or female.



Steerpike said:


> Yes, I don't disagree with anything you say here. And I do think in a serious work, the subject has to be approached in a way appropriate to the work. It's tough. I have a tentative rape (though the actual rape isn't depicted...the scene just ends when the young man forces the woman down and approaches her), and the dilemma posed by it is that I want to redeem this character by the end of the work. So I may cut this scene, I don't know.



Don't cut it out because I got pissed off, or because it's touchy, treat it as you would any other plot device.  Like I said there is rape in my story, but if you want some advice don't focus on the rape (which it doesn't seem like you did or are) but focus on the healing afterward, on the aftermath.  

It never happened to me and this is not the place to tell these stories.  I will say that it has happened to two, possibly three, that I love and two friends, in two cases it was CSA.  I don't want pity and neither do they.  I think half of why I reacted the way I did was because people don't understand it.  Like why would the (I dislike the use of victim, champion seems better) _victim_ return to their rapist?  They do for perfectly valid reasons, in some cases and in others not so valid yet valid to them.  The worst are those who keep dark secrets, I always cry when I think of them.  why don't they tell?  Shame for one, guilt, no one will believe them.  Making jokes about it just seems so wrong, it just seems to lessen what is happening to them, I know this is not the intention.  

I am going to post some links, they may help to understand why I feel the way I do.  public: essays & articles - Pandora's Aquarium Effects of Sexual Assault | RAINN | Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network and Escaping Hades: a rape and sexual abuse survivor's site

Edit:  I posted the links because like others I don't think censorship is right but believe knowledge is power.  If you do write rape into your stories I only hope that it can in some small way break the silence, and stigma associated with it.


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## Steerpike (May 10, 2012)

ascanius said:


> Don't cut it out because I got pissed off, or because it's touchy, treat it as you would any other plot device.  Like I said there is rape in my story, but if you want some advice don't focus on the rape (which it doesn't seem like you did or are) but focus on the healing afterward, on the aftermath.



No, I know. I've been debating cutting it for some time, and the reason is that I want this character to be redeemed at the end of the story and I'm having a hard time redeeming him in my own mind after he rapes a girl.


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## Legendary Sidekick (May 10, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> I'm having a hard time redeeming him in my own mind after he rapes a girl.


Good move, Steerpike.

Rape is something I consider unforgivable. It's not a sin like killing the guy who killed your uncle or something like that, where the crime was done in anger and there's an understandable side to it. Rape is pure hate, and it destroys the innocent. To do that to another person then seek redemption... it's like when ex-Nazis who ran concentration camps want to be forgiven or just be left alone. Why should anybody care what they want? Did they care what those Jewish families wanted? I don't know how many of your potential readers would be as unforgiving as I am, but I think you found the right reason to cut that plot device.


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## ascanius (May 10, 2012)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Good move, Steerpike.
> Rape is something I consider unforgivable. It's not a sin like killing the guy who killed your uncle or something like that, where the crime was done in anger and there's an understandable side to it. Rape is pure hate, and it destroys the innocent. To do that to another person then seek redemption... it's like when ex-Nazis who ran concentration camps want to be forgiven or just be left alone. Why should anybody care what they want? Did they care what those Jewish families wanted? I don't know how many of your potential readers would be as unforgiving as I am, but I think you found the right reason to cut that plot device.



While I understand what you mean, and don't think I could ever personally forgive anyone for such a crime it's not that simple and I don't have any right to.  Aside from a few cases I've heard of, one where the person never considered what he was actually doing to be rape (Date rape).  Most often the perpetrators were victims themselves at one point, especially with CSA.  It's no excuse but how can you judge someone when you cannot understand what is going on.

@Steerpike.  While I understand what you mean instead of thinking of your character as imaginary imagine her as real.  If you had a friend who was raped and is healing from the process it has nothing to do with you.  You may think she should tell, you may think you should hire a thug and beat the hell out of him.  You feel the need to push her towards certain things, help, therapy and what ever.  You can see she is in pain, you know what she is doing wrong, you know that guy isn't right for her, you know she should eat more.  The plain fact is it what you think and feel doesn't matter.  The only thing you can do is support her because you cannot heal her she has to do it.  She doesn't need anyone telling her what she is doing wrong, as I have had this pointed out to me, she does that enough already.  If she decides to forgive him it's her choice and not yours or anyone else's, if you think he is not redeemable it doesn't matter.  Sometimes this happens and people do forgive their perpetrators, I don't know how often, if they feel they are genuinely sorry.  This is what I mean by understanding and focusing on the aftermath and healing.  No one looks at these things, the rape is looked at often times in graphic detail for it's own sake then done that's it, everyone has put it behind them.  Or you get those cases where a woman goes back to the abusive husband, or even their rapist and we are shocked and say she is stupid, have any of us gone through that?  Can any of us claim to understand her reasons, no.  

I guess what I am saying is this.  It doesn't matter if _you_ cannot redeem him, what matters is if _she_ can and wants to forgive him, if he can redeem himself in her eyes.  Don't take that power to choose from her, it has already been done.
As Ravana already knows I have had the same struggle as you.  I have a character who gets raped then ends up having to marry her rapist.  I had to go back and rethink things and it took a while to realize what I just told you.  You don't have to justify your dislike but you do have to give that character the best you can.  Treat the character as if they were real and don't treat them like the victim but the champion they are.


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## The Dark One (May 11, 2012)

Thanks Ascanius, apology accepted, and I'm really pleased because in all honesty I was contemplating leaving the forum.

Of course in all likelihood, I wouldn't be missed. I'm fairly new to mythic scribes and none of you know me, but I'm not new to writing and I possibly do have something to contribute. On a personal level, I really enjoy talking to other writers but I was wondering whether this forum was for me. 

For your information (for those who are still reading this post) I am a lawyer and married to the love of my life. The idea of rape - in real life - is so utterly repugnant and alien to me I can hardly find the words to express it (which is unusual, believe me).

But when I come on these forums, I'm not talking about real life and I don't expect anyone else to be. To put this in a bit of perspective, what percentage of novels would include at least one death? I've done no research, but I would estimate over 95% of novels, and many of those novels would include multiple deaths...even thousands of deaths...many of them deliberately and horribly inflicted. How affected is anyone by these fictional deaths?

Counter that with real life...in my local community, there was an accidental death of a young boy about a week ago and it's had major repercussions. Hundreds of people are absolutely devastated about it and some will take years to recover. The parents, of course, will never be the same.

Most people who live to (say) 50 would go through grief numerous times in their lives, but it doesn't stop them from enjoying a murder mystery or Star Wars or even Saving Private Ryan, mainly because they know the deaths aren't real deaths (with the partial exception of Private Ryan).

Similarly, rape in fiction is not real rape, but it is less frequently explored than murder so we are less inured to its impact. I was grateful to Steerpike for his/her (I told you I was new) post about the Life of Bryan. It reiterated my own point about Erik the Viking but what makes the scene funny? It's not the rape (or the attempted rape in Erik's case) taht is funny, it's the manipulation of the audience's natural horror of rape that is funny. We laugh because we did not expect the punchline PLUS we know it's not real.

Despite being (to all outward appearances) a fairly staid and bourgeois fellow, in my stories anything goes. I like to challenge The Rules and I like to test my characters. Context is critical. If I can't discuss the testing of rules and boundaries - in fiction - with my peers, then my interest in a particular forum is likely to wane.

Some of you may think good riddance, and I apologise if I seem like an arrogant bastard. 

I probably am an arrogant bastard, but I have quite a lot to contribute re writing.


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## JCFarnham (May 11, 2012)

The issue of trigger topics is something we staff types are discussing at present and we'll be sure to let you know on the ruling. 

In the mean time, feel free to discuss the push of boundaries. If not with others then with me. I may never really do it in my fiction as such yet, but then again I've only been noveling since last NaNo, though I've been "writing" for at least a decade in other ways, so while I'm not exactly trying to find my voice I'm still feeling my way around the long format. You see what I mean? Once I know what I can deal with skill wise I fully intend to challenge, more importantly, myself. I'm a great fan of envelope pushing fiction you see, the ground breakers, the post-moderists of any generation... though I'm not a literary fiction writer 

Arrogance isn't knowing what you like and being honest about it. Arrogance to me is taking that position and some how suggesting others are wrong or lesser beings for not agreeing with you.

So no, you're fine haha.


Back on topic!

There are many documented cases of women who fall in love with very dangerous men. Its the whole Bonnie and Clyde scenario, the dating men on death row scenario. That man wasn't nice, not in any sense of the word, not even to her, but for some reason she stayed by him. There's quite a debate on the psychological why's in certain circles. 

It is however one psychological subject I can't get my head around. As is usual for me if I can't understand it completely, I'm not at all that comfortable with it. To this end, I'm hesitant to touch power roles and gender issues. Too much hostility and too many people who could get the wrong end of the stick. This is why I would _personally_ cut the kind of scene discussed above. I whole heartedly advocate that difficult issues should not be avoided and that in some case its beneficial to get everything out in the open, but unfortunately I'm too well aware that certain things can taint peoples view of me as a person, so likewise me as an author.

My goal is to provide enjoyment that sticks with you, that keeps you thinking in some way.

Strong women in fiction is a difficult subject. We all know that everyone is an individual. We all know that some women just don't have any interest in playing traditionally male roles in society. That doesn't make them weak, or unhappy, quite the opposite some times. This becomes difficult to portray in fiction. Peoples own experiences colour their enjoyment of a certain character. Therefore, even if one _means_ a character to be happy and content in a traditional female role, it'll often be taken as sexism, even more unfortunately _especially_ if you're male.


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## The Dark One (May 11, 2012)

JCFarnham said:


> I whole heartedly advocate that difficult issues should not be avoided and that in some case its beneficial to get everything out in the open, but unfortunately I'm too well aware that certain things can taint peoples view of me as a person, so likewise me as an author.


This is exactly the point. You as a person, and you as an author, IMHO are two different people. In fact the more books you publish, you are arguably numerous personae.

I discovered this the first time I had a book published (which has been reasonably popular). People expect you to be a particular way, especially if they liked the book and identified with the main character(s). You quickly learn that there is no future in disappointing your fans and not being the person they expect you to be (and you will never quite be the person they expect you to be).

I now have two books out and none of the main characters are anything like me, I think. Once your book goes out into the world you have to just stand by it and let the public think what they will. No matter what a nice person you are, in reality, there will be people who interpret your book in ways that will irritate you, disgust you or make you want to just give the whole thing away.

You can't seem like a good person to everyone so don't bother trying...and write whatever you are comfortable writing.

I think I've probably pontificated enough on this subject so shall now leave the field to others.


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## Steerpike (May 11, 2012)

The Dark One said:


> This is exactly the point. You as a person, and you as an author, IMHO are two different people. In fact the more books you publish, you are arguably numerous personae.



I think this is exactly right. Too often, people conflate the two. On the general subject of humorous treatment of difficult topics, I can't think of any subject that I've not seen given a humorous treatment at least once. I don't think anything is out of bounds for humor. As you noted, above, the humorist does not poke fun at the underlying topic itself, but uses it as a tool, for things like social commentary, or to render a character absurd, or to turn an audience's expectations against them. Humor can also take the edge off a difficult subject and ease the way for serious discussion; it's a known human coping mechanism - a way by which we are able to process information at an emotional distance. I believe the "gallows humor" of people surrounding by death or other horrors is well-documented.


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## Kit (May 11, 2012)

JCFarnham said:


> The issue of trigger topics is something we staff types are discussing at present and we'll be sure to let you know on the ruling.



Please, no censorship. I am on a few boards that are so heavily "moderated" that any disagreement at all gets the entire thread immediately deleted out of existence. Hate that. 

The delete key is our friend. There is also the "ignore" list, which allows you to effectively blank a specific poster out of your personal reality if s/he consistently offends you.


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## Aidan of the tavern (May 11, 2012)

The Dark One said:


> Thanks Ascanius, apology accepted, and I'm really pleased because in all honesty I was contemplating leaving the forum.
> 
> Of course in all likelihood, I wouldn't be missed. I'm fairly new to mythic scribes and none of you know me, but I'm not new to writing and I possibly do have something to contribute. On a personal level, I really enjoy talking to other writers but I was wondering whether this forum was for me.



Please don't leave the forum Dark One, everyone has something to give to and learn from this place, so apologies if I contributed to your um...baptism by fire.  I personally hold no grudges on this forum, so don't feel you have to withdraw from the discussion.


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## Amanita (May 11, 2012)

It’s, well, interesting to see how a thread about writing female character turns into a heated discussion about rape. 
I’m against excluding specific subjects from the forums as well, at least, as long as they’re related to the stories we’re writing which is the case with rape, some of you might  remember my own thread about this issue in my story.
I have to admit that The Dark One’s choose of words in his first post about the topic rubbed me the wrong way as well. Not being personally affected by rape, it didn’t inspire a response quite as heated as that of Ascanius but it was definitely something that made me „stumble“ while reading. 


> For example, rape can be funny.


 just isn’t something which should be posted right after someone describing their own experience with the subject in my opinion. 

The question if everything can and should be made fun of, no matter how many people are hurt by this is being widely discussed, especially concerning religion. The most common viewpoint seems to be that allowing this is an important part of a free, modern, western society. Personally, I don’t agree but this might have to do with my own experience with being made fun of as part of bullying. Violent reactions to verbal provocation aren’t acceptably of course, but I understand strong verbal reactions and don’t see anything wrong with them. Someone who wants to make fun of something extremely painful for many people must expect heated responses and shouldn’t want to run away right away because one person gives such a response. Someone who plays with fire has to expect that they might get burned occasionally. It’s part of the fun, isn’t it? 
Some people might claim that I don’t have a sense of humor but in some circumstances I do. And I should be careful because some of the things I do find funny might be pretty offensive to others as well. 

Another problem with rape in fiction besides the use in humor is the romantisation. Sexual fantasies involving rape are supposed to be quite common and I can sort of see the appeal that fantasies of, what do I know, a handsome and strong warrior abducting someone might have. I have no intentions whatsoever to make others feel guilty about their fantasies but I do think that this kind of thing shouldn’t be in fiction directed at a general audience as well. Make the handsome warrior abduct her and have them have consensual sex later, this should be doable as well.

Rape is an extremely sensitive issues not least because of the related power dynamics and gender issues which make it feel problematic at least, if men make fun of it. War time situations show, that many probably „ordinary“ men of all ethnic groups are suddenly prepared to committ this crime if the situation allows it. 
Non-sexual torture is another issue that should be treated with much more respect in my opinion. Unlike in the case of rape, very light treatment of this devastating event is extremely common and obviously expected. 

But returning to the original topic: I don’t believe that writing women in „weak“ situations is something that should be avoided, if it’s avoided to openly, the story might not feel realistic anymore either.
A strong female character isn’t one who never needs help from other women or men, but one who has role of her own and doesn’t only exist as love interest, person the hero can show his courage on or quota girl inserted by the author to be politically correct. 
Oh well, plenty of stuff on the rape issue and two paragraphs about the original topic…


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## ascanius (May 11, 2012)

The Dark One said:


> Similarly, rape in fiction is not real rape, but it is less frequently explored than murder so we are less inured to its impact. I was grateful to Steerpike for his/her (I told you I was new) post about the Life of Bryan. It reiterated my own point about Erik the Viking but what makes the scene funny? It's not the rape (or the attempted rape in Erik's case) that is funny, it's the manipulation of the audience's natural horror of rape that is funny. We laugh because we did not expect the punchline PLUS we know it's not real.



I know rape in fiction is not real.  But for me it is a reality for those I love.  I cannot watch movies that I could watch three four years ago if there is rape in it, never thought about watching a movie with humor in it which is a little sad.  Even books I read in the past that had rape in it, it was always portrayed as it happened then it's done with no lasting harm, like a sprained ankle.  Now I think of that book and am disgusted by the authors ignorance, still good books aside from that aspect.  Hell if you posted that a year ago I wouldn't have thought anything about it and probably would have agreed with you about contexts where it is funny.  Lately though....  A lot of it has to do with my dislike about how it's viewed by society in ignorance.  I'm not trying to tell you your still wrong only try to explain why I reacted the way I did.



The Dark One said:


> Despite being (to all outward appearances) a fairly staid and bourgeois fellow, in my stories anything goes. I like to challenge The Rules and I like to test my characters. Context is critical. If I can't discuss the testing of rules and boundaries - in fiction - with my peers, then my interest in a particular forum is likely to wane.



I agree and enjoy when the boundaries are pushed.   Personally I prefer a more intellectual approach but need to remember, as my sister puts it get out of my own head, that others approach things differently.



JCFarnham said:


> The issue of trigger topics is something we staff types are discussing at present and we'll be sure to let you know on the ruling.



Please don't censure the posts because of this, I over reacted to something and the other members here should not be punished for something I did.

Sansa stark in ASOIF is girly, she likes dresses, being prim and proper and is/was concerned about marriage and making babies excluding all else.  She has no spine, whines a lot, is/was concerned with only herself and her marriage.  Do I hate her, yes, Is she weak?  Yes but she is weak, in my opinion, because she is so concerned with herself and her wants.  She is weak because she is so easily controlled and manipulated and willing to betray others.  Is she believable? Yes.  I think the whole strong and weak thing can only really apply to character traits and shouldn't be dependent on the sex of the character.  I think for a female character to be believable she needs to be female first.  Can she be expected to move 80lb bags of cement all day?  No, I can barely do that even when I'm in shape.  Is violence going to affect her differently? yes unless she is used to it.  Should it matter if a female character is portrayed as being girly.  No so long as equal time is spent making that character unique and individual as would be spent with a male character.  I also don't think female characters should be held to the same standards that a male character is held to.  To say a character is weak or stereotypical because she doesn't jump into the fray wielding a battleaxe hollering at the top of her lungs is simply stupid.  To me if I can imagine meeting them in the real world then they are believable.


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## The Din (May 11, 2012)

Peter Griffin after getting buggered in prison: 'Now all my farts sound like the wind.'

Meg after getting captured by home invaders: 'Are you going to have your way with me now? ...I won't scream or anything.'
Robber: 'No, oh god no.' 

Rape can be funny. As anything can, given the right context. No need to bite poor old Dark One's head off for saying as much. 

As for strong women, sure have some, but don't make every one of them 'strong' (ie Jordan). In our own world there are plenty of weak women and (before you lot start PMSing all over the place...) men. I like the strong women who are women, not mighty warriors with a feminine name(Cersie rather than Brienne). Give them a sharp set of wits and an eye-catching bosom, or lack there-of. Let them manipulate us boorish males and other empowering stuff. Just don't have some 80 pound beauty put a bunch of UFC-equivelent warriors on their arses (lest their name is Yoda). 

And, by gods wrinkly balls, don't censor this site more than it already is.


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## Steerpike (May 11, 2012)

I concur on the censorship issue. I've been on non-writing forums that aren't censored at all. For some reason, writing sites seem a bit prone to it. This site doesn't seem that way to me. As writers, I think you should all find censorship fairly repugnant.


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## Ankari (May 12, 2012)

No censorship please.


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## Ghost (May 12, 2012)

While I don't support banning certain topics, I do hope people will employ more tact. It was odd that one poster mentioned a bad experience. The next poster essentially disagrees with the entire post, says sometimes rape is funny, and then goes on to talk about the importance of _context_ of all things.

Another thing, I don't understand how a thread about the believability of characters became about situations where rape is supposedly funny.  In humor like that, the point is usually to be absurd, not believable. It's a different strategy for a different purpose. (If _Gardens of the Moon_ is a humorous novel that plays on absurdity, then I apologize for being a nitwit.)

Anyway, a few points I made about unbelievable characters related to stock and flat characters. But a female character who is so unbelievable she's ridiculous? That would be one who makes nonsensical decisions, usually to forward the plot. It happens to characters of either gender. Perhaps the author didn't think about why the character would act this way. Perhaps the author thought about it but failed to set it up satisfactorily. The solution is to look at it from the character's perspective and to leave hints about her motives so the reader isn't in the dark.

Or ignore that one reviewer on Amazon, which would honestly be my approach. :wink:


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## Philip Overby (May 12, 2012)

Kit said:


> Please, no censorship. I am on a few boards that are so heavily "moderated" that any disagreement at all gets the entire thread immediately deleted out of existence. Hate that.
> 
> The delete key is our friend. There is also the "ignore" list, which allows you to effectively blank a specific poster out of your personal reality if s/he consistently offends you.



This only happens here in extreme circumstances.  If members are generally civil and don't resort to burying other people's beliefs or viewpoints (or personally attacking them) almost all topics are open for discussion.  There are rules about conducting yourself on specific topics and we expect them to be followed.  I think the forum has flourished because we don't let members who try to poison the well stick around.  

I want to go back to the original topic though.  I think writing women doesn't have to be much different than writing men.  I don't really treat it much differently myself.  If the only thing a reader is thinking about a woman character is "she's not believable" then she must not be a very interesting character.  Cool characters are cool characters, regardless of their gender.


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## Aidan of the tavern (May 12, 2012)

Phil the Drill said:


> This only happens here in extreme circumstances.  If members are generally civil and don't resort to burying other people's beliefs or viewpoints (or personally attacking them) almost all topics are open for discussion.  There are rules about conducting yourself on specific topics and we expect them to be followed.  I think the forum has flourished because we don't let members who try to poison the well stick around.
> 
> I want to go back to the original topic though.  I think writing women doesn't have to be much different than writing men.  I don't really treat it much differently myself.  If the only thing a reader is thinking about a woman character is "she's not believable" then she must not be a very interesting character.  Cool characters are cool characters, regardless of their gender.



Indeed, the only trolls you'll find here are the ones with green skin who live in the caves and can only be killed with acid.

I think it was my fault that the topic veered to rape.  Had I known the response I would have started a new thread.


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## Steerpike (May 12, 2012)

Phil the Drill said:


> I want to go back to the original topic though.  I think writing women doesn't have to be much different than writing men.  I don't really treat it much differently myself.  If the only thing a reader is thinking about a woman character is "she's not believable" then she must not be a very interesting character.  Cool characters are cool characters, regardless of their gender.



This is my approach as well.


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## Feo Takahari (May 13, 2012)

I've seen it observed (most clearly by Jesu Otaku in her review of _Paradise Kiss_) that even if your character's base personality doesn't change, you should keep in mind what social pressures your character reacts to. Maybe she doesn't like to act feminine, but if she's encouraged to act feminine, in what ways does she accept or reject this?


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## The Dark One (May 14, 2012)

Ouroboros said:


> While I don't support banning certain topics, I do hope people will employ more tact. It was odd that one poster mentioned a bad experience. The next poster essentially disagrees with the entire post, says sometimes rape is funny, and then goes on to talk about the importance of _context_ of all things.



For a start, the context of literature as opposed to the context of real life.


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## rhd (May 14, 2012)

The Din said:


> Peter Griffin after getting buggered in prison: 'Now all my farts sound like the wind.'
> 
> Meg after getting captured by home invaders: 'Are you going to have your way with me now? ...I won't scream or anything.'
> Robber: 'No, oh god no.'
> ...



I once met a rape victim who cracked three rape-jokes in a row. I din't know she had been raped at the time, but I think she was either testing my reaction, or it was her way of dealing with it, like someone with cancer who might crack a joke about it,  _Victims/survivors_ are allowed to do that, it's their way of dealing with it. Underneath all that was a great deal of anger that came out and I got a bit of a tongue lashing when we were discussing a related topic and I let my ignorance surface. If a character in your story is a insensitive, that's probably okay, because it's your character that's speaking, if you're making a funny in your writing with rape as a tool, you're in danger of dispensing any consideration for a person with past who might reading your book/story. Telling the person who is insulted by it to chill out still isn't okay. George Carlin's 'rape CAN be funny' standup routine makes a few points, plays on the classic 'she asked for it' excuse, though I think it went a bit downhill from there. If you're* some some sort of master of irony and I think there are very few who can pull that off, good, you're making a point. I'd suggest that if it's a rape-gag that can be dispensed with, dispense with it. Like I would never write a rape scene from the point of view of rapist, there's already plenty of eroticized rape imagery out there and I'd just be adding to it. You don't know what you're going to trigger in a person who has been raped. I don't want to be responsible for that, so while I would include it in my writing, I'd step on my tippy-toes about it.

 (*and I mean 'you're' as a general address, not the Din in particular)


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## ascanius (May 15, 2012)

Guys can we just get on to the original post.  If someone wants to start a thread on rape we can all join it and discuss the different ways of writing about it along with important points, what should and should not be done, considerations etc.  I'll even post and give advice and help any way I can.  Unless someone wants to do that can we just drop this, it serves no purpose.  And frankly I'm getting annoyed by it.

PS.
Guys= you's all.  The English language really need a second person plural.  How about that for some local dialect, we have but you don't.


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## Kelise (May 15, 2012)

And on that point, there are several threads already on the topic of rape - a site search will bring them up.

Anyhow, back on topic... there's not much different to writing a woman you can believe in, than to writing a man you can believe in. In my humble opinion.

Do we think it's easier to allow a male character to act unbelievably than a female?


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## The Dark One (May 15, 2012)

Kelise said:


> And on that point, there are several threads already on the topic of rape - a site search will bring them up.
> 
> Anyhow, back on topic... there's not much different to writing a woman you can believe in, than to writing a man you can believe in. In my humble opinion.
> 
> Do we think it's easier to allow a male character to act unbelievably than a female?



Good question.

How many eccentric female characters can you think of starring in novels?

And how many male?


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## Aidan of the tavern (May 15, 2012)

I suppose my original question was wondering merely how best to bridge the gap between male author and female character.  I'm still new to this writing thing you see.


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## rhd (May 15, 2012)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> I suppose my original question was wondering merely how best to bridge the gap between male author and female character.  I'm still new to this writing thing you see.



I'd suggest breaking it down. How would you consider a male character with certain ambitions, are they unorthodox? Now consider your environment and the society he lives in, are they typically patriarchal? What are the obstacles he would face in such a situation, how extreme are they? Would people laugh at him, stop him, or try to kill him? How would this effect him as a person? Now think of the character as a female, what are the obstacles a female would face if her desires and ambitions were unorthodox? What will she do within her power to overcome them? Would people try to stop her, imprison her? Obviously it would have to work within the constraints in the world you've created. I don't go by weak or strong, I go by depth, the more you can strip away at a human being, the more interesting it gets for the reader, male or female.


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## The Dark One (May 15, 2012)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> I suppose my original question was wondering merely how best to bridge the gap between male author and female character.  I'm still new to this writing thing you see.



There is only one way to answer this question. You have experienced women throughout your life (I presume), write the female characters from the guts of your experience and don't intellectualise too much. If you do, I guarantee you'll create either a one dimensional cipher or, even worse, a conceptual frankenstein with a bunch of political themes and tropes all cobbled together in an unconvincing turgid mish mash.

Write women from the heart, not the head, is my advice.

That's not to say the characters themselves can't be intellectual - just the quality of being female can't be intellectualised (IMHO).

In fact, the difference between men and women is a profoundly important subtheme in my recently published novel. I'm sure most of the contributors to this thread would love it.


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## Ophiucha (May 15, 2012)

As nearly everyone else said, thinking of them first as a human being will generally go a long way. Many writers who write women write them in such a way that there is nothing more to them than the fact that they are a woman. Though in most fantasy societies, the fact that they are a woman will play an important role in their character, they have to have traits that aren't directly tied to their gender. For instance, a warrior woman will have to face - presuming your society is sexist, which most generic fantasy settings are - trials and prejudice from men who think she isn't good enough. That's just a fact. That should be part of her character. But nearly every fantasy writer makes that everything about her place as a warrior. She took up the sword because she never had a mother or any sisters. She took it up to escape from an arranged marriage. She took it up to seek revenge on her rapist (and oh boy, that's a big one; when men have tragic pasts, their lovers, parents, or siblings died; when women do, they get raped). She never takes it up because, hey, she lived next door to a blacksmith and her parents let her take up a hobby on weekends.

I guess the point is that, as a woman, society's views on who we are and what we can be are always there, and sometimes it hurts or keeps us down. But sometimes we do things because we're human beings. I don't want to get a job while my husband is unemployed because it's a "radical reformation" of the stereotypical American couple, with a housewife and a working husband. I want to get a job because the expansion pack for Civilization V isn't going to pay for itself.


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## Steerpike (May 15, 2012)

Yes, I think in general one should simply write believable 'people.' Do that, and you've accomplished the goal for the vast majority of purposes, and there's no reason you should expect to have an unrealistic female character because of it.

If part of your goal in writing the novel is to explored the nuances or differences between males and females, then you might take a different approach. But in most cases that is not what is being done.


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## Hans (May 15, 2012)

Might not completely fit into the current discussion, but on the topic of female characters I found a little article with flowchart.
The Female Character Flowchart | Overthinking It


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