# What is political?



## Gryphos (Nov 15, 2015)

So here it's enforced that conversations should steer away from politics. I have a bit of a problem with this, in that it follows the inherently false assumption that it's possible to somehow separate the political world from the rest. Ideology, be it related to Left vs Right, gender issues, race issues, religious issues, runs through _every_ aspect of society. Even something as unanimous as condemning terrorist attacks is an inherently politically charged position, and any attempt to warden it and other like topics away from political discussion is (I think) futile and pointless. _Everything_ is politics.

But, perhaps I am wrong. In any case, I feel a need to understand. So for my own benefit, I ask, what on earth counts as political?


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## Miskatonic (Nov 15, 2015)

Beats the hell out of me.


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## Nagash (Nov 15, 2015)

Everything is not politics; politics tries its hardest to involve itself in everything, but when discussing some events or parts of our social universe, no matter what they are, one doesn't have to make it eminently political by picking a side or a stance. Sure, anything can be political; but its not an unavoidable occurrence. In the case of the Paris shootings, you can for example express your grief and sympathy for the victims and their families without _making it political_ by discussing geopolitics, and foreign policy matters, or you can just discuss on an intimate and emotional level instead. You can; but you don't have to.

Not that I have no interest in politics, quite the opposite actually, but if the forum requires us to abstain from politicizing our threads and discussion, by forwarding our ideological views, well we should do it, because we can.

Avoiding political debates on a writing forum, even in the off-topic section, seems like a wise decision because it always sparks a lot of emotion and passionate debates many could feel excluded of and/or offended by.


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## Nimue (Nov 15, 2015)

Really?  You can't see the difference between a discussion of writing with social issues (under close moderation) and bringing up "lax border policies and a government obsessed with forcing incompatible cultures to exist in the same space"?  Literally, political issues using political vocabulary?

This isn't the place for that discussion.  It has nothing to do with fantasy writing--while social issues frequently do.  If you're hell-bent on having an angry discussion on modern global affairs and who should bomb who, do it somewhere else or take it to private messages.


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## Sheilawisz (Nov 15, 2015)

Hello everyone, please take it easy here.

I wanted to post this, straight from the Forum Guidelines: Politics and Religion

_Contemporary political discussion inevitably leads to mistrust and division. Asking questions about politics as it directly relates to writing is fine, as is discussing historical political developments for the purpose of research. But all contemporary politics, including hot-button issues, are unwelcome distractions that must be avoided.

When discussing religion, special care must be taken. Such discussions must be conducted in a spirit of mutual respect and genuine inquiry. For this reason special guidelines have been enacted for threads on religion. Please see the following:_ Discussing Religion.

As you can see, it's fine to discuss Fantasy Politics as long as we do not touch Real World politics and issues. This policy was implemented after a discussion regarding American Politics caused quite a battle a long time ago, so we decided that talking about Politics cannot be tolerated anymore in Mythic Scribes.

Thank you!


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## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 15, 2015)

Gryphos,
The reason I was asked to moderate was that, before I was a mod, there was a thread in which religious and nonreligious members were discussing their beliefs. For some, it wasn't so much a discussion but rather cold, calculated attacks that more or less implied "you're an idiot if your opinion differs from mine." I tried to take the high road by simply sharing my beliefs, and acknowledging that not everyone shares my beliefs and I respect that. My attempts to diffuse/de-escalate were met with "stop pretending to be neutral." (I wasn't.) Even though I didn't get nasty, some members that I respected and got along well with did, and it was awkward to interact with them.

So since then, there's been an err-on-the-side-of-caution approach. MS was very new when the "God thread" got ugly, and for a couple days or so, it seemed like the community was broken and would stay broken. (It didn't.) I think what keeps MS a nice place on the Internet is that we see what hurts the community most and try our best not to let lightning strike twice.

So too political would be any issue where you can expect the conversation to be:
"I'm right."
"No, I'm right."
"You're an idiot."


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## skip.knox (Nov 15, 2015)

I'm with Nimue on this one. Asking for a definition of such a loaded term feels like a leading question. Once the term gets defined, then we get to argue about it. Why raise the question, if not to challenge the answer? Otherwise, there's this really useful reference called a dictionary, if you just want the word defined.

In every successful online community I've ever been in, and I've been in them since the days of Compuserve, there has been a distinction between what's on-topic and what's off-topic. Most of them, too, have certain local hot-button topics peculiar to that forum. For example, on the medievalists listserv, we are not to talk about Hitler, and we are not to mention Braveheart. For much the same reasons Sheilawisz mentions: they caused so many word storms in the past, and brought so little to the community, they have been banned, rather like individuals get banned.

So here, it's about fantasy writing. There are plenty of other places to talk politics. Which is defined as the business of the _polis_.


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## Miskatonic (Nov 16, 2015)

The sub-heading under Chit Chat says "Share whatever is on your mind".

Maybe that needs to be revised hmm?


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## Nimue (Nov 16, 2015)

The forum rules trump the goddamn board descriptions.  Either you're being completely disingenuous or you believe they shouldn't apply to you.  Neither motivation is impressive.  Sorry.


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## Miskatonic (Nov 16, 2015)

You obviously take issue with what I posted since you chose to quote it here. 

Impressing people has never been my intention.

I have no problem leaving religion/politics out of my posts from now on. No need to get emotional about it.


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## Russ (Nov 16, 2015)

My own working definition is very practical and less theoretical.

If I have any doubt whether or not a comment I am going to make is political, or, even more broadly, not without the prime purpose of advancing a discussion about writing, I simply leave it out.

So to me "when it doubt, leave it out."


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## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 16, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> The sub-heading under Chit Chat says "Share whatever is on your mind".
> 
> Maybe that needs to be revised hmm?


"Share whatever is on your mind" is a polite invitation to brag about your kids (well, I take it as such) or share a concern for friends or basically just talk about stuff that isn't necessarily fantasy writing. But of course, we expect people to be reasonable about what thoughts are shared.

For example, say I post a 600-pixel-wide image of my bare butt because I happen to be thinking about my butt and, yes, that does violate forum rules and societal expectations of decency, but wasn't I just following instructions? "Share whatever is on your mind."

I'd like to think that if Shameless Exhibitionist Me is going to attempt to disturb the MS community with such an image, the statement "share whatever is on your mind" isn't the difference between Me thinking he has permission and Me knowing the butt image is going result in some rather unpleasant reactions from other members.



Just to add… I totally get that a global tragedy is going to cause a lot of hard feelings, so while my above example is meant to be obviously absurd, I'm not implying that Miskatonic's statement was.

Like all political views or solutions to world problems, there are going to be _completely valid opinions_ that will result in unpleasant reactions from those who disagree or simply object to the political tone even if they share that opinion.


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## BWFoster78 (Nov 16, 2015)

> Everything is politics.



I agree.  It's been my experience that conservatives tend to be anti-adverb while those wacky progressives think you can use 'em where ever you want ...

Wait.  Not really. 

Seriously, I have to agree with Nimue on this one. Is this really that hard to figure out?

BAD THREAD: Gun Control in 21st Century America

GOOD THREAD: My character is a pacifist who is forced to defend his family. Thoughts on how I can have him do this without betraying his beliefs?

The first is directly about a modern hot button political view.  The second might very well touch on some of the same things, but the thread is about writing.  This is a forum about writing, not politics.



> Ideology, be it related to Left vs Right, gender issues, race issues, religious issues, runs through every aspect of society.



Just in my honest opinion, I'm going to agree with you that threads do sometimes seem to veer into political territory couched in writing terms, and nothing is really said about it until a poster takes a contrary position.  I've found that frustrating at times, too.

It's important to remember, though, that being a moderator isn't an easy task, and it's not like the moderators are being highly compensated for the jobs they do.  If a little bit of occasional annoyance is the price we have to pay for having a fantastic resource as fantasy writers, I can live with that.


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## FifthView (Nov 16, 2015)

Factionalism often leads to fractious discussions that can fracture a community, whereas politic discussion of politics is, ironically, rare for most web forums.


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## Gryphos (Nov 16, 2015)

I now understand a little more. Obviously on a private platform such as a forum, any guidelines can be set and should be obeyed. That goes without saying. I merely criticise the guidelines against political discussion the grounds that it's far too loosely defined, to me anyway. See, I was raised in a very 'politicised' environment, where we always discussed these kinds of issues openly in the same way one might discuss television or the weather, and thus I've gained a kind of disdain for the active avoidance of these issues which affect every aspect of society. I said in the OP that everything is politics. Perhaps a better way to phrase that would be that nothing is politics.

However, I understand that others may not follow my view. It is true that discussion of the subjects many people label as politics can lead to unnecessary divisions and thus toxic discourse. I certainly don't wish to see that happen here.

It may be difficult for me, since I doubt I will ever (nor really wish to) abandon my convictions that optics doesn't exist, but I will try to refrain from such topics that others dub as political in the future.


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## FifthView (Nov 16, 2015)

Another way to look at it:  Almost nothing is accomplished when politics is discussed.  Are discussed.  Is discussed.

I mean, on web forums when the users come from diverse political perspectives.  

Typically, at most what will be accomplished is this:  Spotting who among your fellow forum users aligns with you.  And who doesn't.  I.e., delineation of factions.

But as for solving the big issues?  _Solving?_  That just doesn't happen.  So there's not much lost in not discussing politics.


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## Devor (Nov 16, 2015)

I'm not going to get into the discussion about whether or not _everything_ is politics.  But I did want to emphasize that the more a topic is grounded in fantasy writing, and especially to your own work in progress, the more room we try to give people.  For example, when it comes to the social and gender discussions that have come up in the past, even though they're fairly political, we can ground our discussions in concrete writing examples.  The more grounded a thread like that is, the more useful it is to us as a community, the more we can tolerate a respectful (non-policy) tangent.


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## Miskatonic (Nov 18, 2015)

I usually avoid religion/politics, but when I read something that boggles my mind I tend to give in to the temptation to respond.


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## Miskatonic (Nov 18, 2015)

FifthView said:


> Factionalism often leads to fractious discussions that can fracture a community, whereas politic discussion of politics is, ironically, rare for most web forums.



Internet cliques are just a whole bunch of phooey.


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