# Wizard vs Wizard



## Sheilawisz

After a request was made to have a Wizard vs Wizard thread, I have decided to open one so we can share our points of view about hypothetical battles between Fantasy characters.

This thread is not to give votes to your favourites, but to discuss how and why a Fantasy character would defeat another in battle. The characters in question must have magical powers of any kind (hence the name of this thread!) so those without Magic are not allowed to fight.

You can choose the characters that will engage in epic battle =)


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## Steerpike

So, I guess I'd have to think first of who the most powerful Wizards are in fantasy literature.  Here are a few that come to mind:

The Lady (The Black Company), who has already been mentioned.

(no image available)


Soulcatcher (The Black Company), sister to The Lady, and a bad ass, seen here in the cover illustration of The Black Company:









Quick Ben (Malazan Series), an incredibly powerful wizard, seen here in some fan art:







Elric of Melnibone (Michael Moorcock's Elric Books), at the same time physically weak, and a powerful, eternally-reincarnated sorceror with a sword that is the embodiment of a demon. Seen here in art that I think was by Michael Whelan:


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## Reaver

Steerpike said:


> Soulcatcher (The Black Company), sister to The Lady, and a bad ass, seen here in the cover illustration of The Black Company:



This looks like a really blatant rip-off and poor attempt at drawing and trying to hide the fact that the artist ripped off the image of Darth Vader. Hopefully there's no line of dialogue somewhere in the book where someone says: "Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Soulcatcher."


In fact, I can only think of two more blatant Darth Vader ripoffs...these two:


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## Steerpike

Reaver said:


> This looks like a really blatant rip-off and poor attempt at drawing and trying to hide the fact that the artist ripped off the image of Darth Vader.



The book was published in 1984, the year after Return of the Jedi, so I'm sure the marketing people were cognizant of that look. Of course, Soulcatcher would eat Vader for breakfast. 

Note that she isn't wearing a chainmail bikini


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## Sheilawisz

I am curious, what is the extent of the powers of the Lady and Soulcatcher? What can they do and cannot do? What kind of Magic can they perform?

It may be a little difficult for me to take part in this thread, because I have read very few Fantasy books compared to what many of you have read... I am sure it will be fun, anyway =)

Are they sorceresses or witches of some kind, or maybe they are more similar to paranormal entities??


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## Steerpike

Reaver said:


> I don't like books with overpowered characters. It's a Deus Ex-Machina throughout the entire story.



The Black Company series doesn't have that problem, though I have seen it arise in other situations.


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## Steerpike

Sheilawisz said:


> I am curious, what is the extent of the powers of the Lady and Soulcatcher? What can they do and cannot do? What kind of Magic can they perform?



Good question, Sheila. I'll write a bit about them when I'm off work tonight (or maybe someone else who has read the books will chime in between now and then).


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## Reaver

Steerpike said:


> The book was published in 1984, the year after Return of the Jedi, so I'm sure the marketing people were cognizant of that look. Of course, Soulcatcher would eat Vader for breakfast.
> 
> Note that she isn't wearing a chainmail bikini


 
So then it is a blatant ripoff of Darth Vader's look. Dr. Doom debuted in 1962, so maybe they were cognizant of that too. 

At least Marvel changed the color of Doom's armor and cloak. I'd rather the artist at least put her in a different color of armor.


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## Mindfire

...didn't we do this already? With polls and brackets and... does nobody else remember that?


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## Steerpike

Mindfire said:


> ...didn't we do this already? With polls and brackets and... does nobody else remember that?



Yeah, but the end result was kind of lame because everyone just voted for Gandalf as a popularity contest.


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## Darkblade

Steerpike said:


> Yeah, but the end result was kind of lame because everyone just voted for Gandalf as a popularity contest.



Well to be fair Gandalf was more of an Angel than a wizard. Being an immortal agent of a higher good power sent into the world to guide and protect it. That puts him a fair bit higher than most more mortal wizards.


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## MadMadys

Reaver said:


> So then it is a blatant ripoff of Darth Vader's look. Dr. Doom debuted in 1982, so maybe they were cognizant of that too.



Dr. Doom first debuted in 1962 (FF #5) and was modeled as such, according to Jack Kirby (who created the character),  because they were going for 'death' as a villain: "It was the reason for the armor and the hood. Death is connected with armor and the inhuman-like steel. Death is something without mercy, and human flesh contains that mercy."

I have no other relevant information or comments to add to this thread.


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## Steerpike

Darkblade said:


> Well to be fair Gandalf was more of an Angel than a wizard. Being an immortal agent of a higher good power sent into the world to guide and protect it. That puts him a fair bit higher than most more mortal wizards.



The primary problem is that not everyone has read all of the works at issue, so they understandably go with what they know. Whether an agent of a higher power or not, I think it is difficult to set Gandalf above the likes of Elric, or The Lady. I think Quick Ben would give him a good run as well. This is simply because these works deal with a power level of magic that is much higher than that of Lord of the Rings, and the characters in them reflect it.

Elric, for example, not only wield his demon sword, he actually calls on gods and binds them to his will. Ultimately, he kills at least one god, in a world where gods are not routinely killed by mortals. That sets a pretty high bar, even if you're more of an Angel. And, in the context of the world of Middle-Earth, for example, those higher powers were not available to him. He was there in a weaker and more mortal state. If we take the characters as presented in the world in which they live, I don't think he holds up so well strength-wise against those from more high-powered settings. That said, I like Gandalf a great deal.


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## Sheilawisz

I really like Gandalf, but the problem with him and the other Wizards from _The Lord of the Rings_ is that it was never shown or explained what was the true extent of their magical powers.

I would love to see Gandalf teleporting, transforming Orcs into squirrels and blasting the doors of Mordor with green lightning, but apparently he was not allowed by some higher power to fully display his Magic... Then, it's difficult to bring Gandalf into hypothetical Fantasy battles and decide what would be the result of a fight.

Gandalf was shown in the movies to have some reality-warping style powers, though =)


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## Reaver

MadMadys said:


> Dr. Doom first debuted in 1962 (FF #5) and was modeled as such, according to Jack Kirby (who created the character),  because they were going for 'death' as a villain: "It was the reason for the armor and the hood. Death is connected with armor and the inhuman-like steel. Death is something without mercy, and human flesh contains that mercy."
> 
> I have no other relevant information or comments to add to this thread.



The 1982 was a typo. But thanks for acknowledging that. They're all a ripoff of Dr. Doom.


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## Reaver

Steerpike said:


> The primary problem is that not everyone has read all of the works at issue, so they understandably go with what they know. Whether an agent of a higher power or not, I think it is difficult to set Gandalf above the likes of Elric, or The Lady. I think Quick Ben would give him a good run as well. This is simply because these works deal with a power level of magic that is much higher than that of Lord of the Rings, and the characters in them reflect it.
> 
> Elric, for example, not only wield his demon sword, he actually calls on gods and binds them to his will. Ultimately, he kills at least one god, in a world where gods are not routinely killed by mortals. That sets a pretty high bar, even if you're more of an Angel. And, in the context of the world of Middle-Earth, for example, those higher powers were not available to him. He was there in a weaker and more mortal state. If we take the characters as presented in the world in which they live, I don't think he holds up so well strength-wise against those from more high-powered settings. That said, I like Gandalf a great deal.



Who's to say that their powers would even work in the universe that contains Middle Earth? Or are they so awesome that their powers work everywhere? If so, this is a prime example of overpowered characters and lazy writing. They can kill gods or bind them to their will? Where's the challenge for these characters? They're walking, talking Deus Ex Machinas.


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## MadMadys

Reaver said:


> The 1982 was a typo. But thanks for acknowledging that. They're all a ripoff of Dr. Doom.



Which explains why they all hate Reed Richards, if you think about it.


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## Reaver

*The Undisputed Champ*



MadMadys said:


> Which explains why they all hate Reed Richards, if you think about it.



Even Reed Richards hates Reed Richards.

I know someone who can kick all these wizards asses any day of the week and twice on Sunday:








​


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## Sheilawisz

_Lord of the Rings_ magical powers seen in the movies:

1- The magical fireworks that explode in unrealistic and unnatural fashion are clearly a form of reality warping.
2- Saruman causing a storm and lightning bolts to attack the Fellowship as they climb the mountains.
3- Gandalf creating a magical shield against the Balrog.
4- Gandalf (when he comes back) heating Aragorn's sword to disarm him.
5- Again, Gandalf casting a magical beam that repels the Nazgul.

Anything else that I missed??


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## Phietadix

Oh I have a wizard to put forth.

Tom Bombadil. (yes I know he's not technicly a wizard, but he is powerful)


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## MadMadys

Reaver said:


> I know someone who can kick all these wizards asses any day of the week and twice on Sunday:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​



Yeah, whatever.


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## Darkblade

The biggest problem in comparing magic users from different works is that they all have different magic systems. What might be obscenely powerful in one world is not all that impressive in an other.

As a random example the Harry Dresden of the Dresden Files series is considered moderately skilled but very powerful as a wizard (before his insane number of power-ups). Generally this means he can pull a whole heck of a lot of destructive energy for offensive magic or various more refined but still not subtle magics. This means he can probably toast some of the more subtle magic users from worlds where magic is less showy, such as Harry Potter or Kvothe from Kingkiller Chronicles with his Sympathy magic (again before powerups, naming magic might make this a fun little battle). On the other hand the likes of Elric or The Lady would be able to take Dresden without even breaking a sweat.

That's before we get into the really weird types of magic and how they would interact with each other. Biothaumaturgy as seen in the Bas-Lag series on the rare occasion it is used for offensive purposes could potentially rip the magic right out of any mage that has their magic as a hereditary and therefore genetic trait. Twilight Sparkle of My Little Pony: Friendship is magic has the ability to copy any spell she sees or reads about, impressive but not Earth Shattering in her home setting but when crossed with higher level magics from other worlds it gets potentially apocalyptic. This is only the tip of the ice berg.

That is not to say it isn't worthwhile to bit fictional characters against one another but it really needs to be done on a case by case basis not in bulk like this.


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## Steerpike

Yes, Darkblade. The comparisons are fundamentally flawed on some level because the rules of the universe, as it were, are vastly different from setting to setting. We still had some interesting "death matches" doing just that, however


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## Darkblade

Individual death matches between characters can be quite fun to discuss but in bulk with every witch, wizard, mage and spell caster ever conceived in the fray there are just too many factors to consider all at once.


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## Devor

For me, these kinds of battles are poor reflections because these matches focus on raw power, and none of the subtleties or character which actually make the wizards impressive to a reader.

Let me create a character that casts his magic by drawing on the life energy of those surrounding him, killing them at once, just so he can cast a spell that creates the tissue paper he needs to blow his nose.  Assuming the fight starts with characters in proximate range of each other, this wizard wins at once.


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## Reaver

MadMadys said:


> Yeah, whatever.









__________________
\_*I LOVE YOU GUYS.*/
\/


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## ThinkerX

> I am curious, what is the extent of the powers of the Lady and Soulcatcher? What can they do and cannot do? What kind of Magic can they perform?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll take a stab at this (somewhat spoilerish) :
> 
> First, the 'Lady' and 'Soulcatcher' are sisters, members of a group of sorcerers who ruled an evil empire until being deposed (other luminaries include 'Shifter', 'Howler', 'the Hanged Man', ect).  The 'Lady' was married to a real powerful and real nasty piece of work (very nearly on a par with Shielawisz's female mages) termed the 'Dominator'.  The Dominator, his wife the Lady, and the Ten who were Taken (geased wizards including Soulcatcher).
> 
> That said...The Lady knew how to make flying carpets, could do a sort of 'mind scan' spell (less than perfect), could Take (geas) other powerful wizards, conjure demonic beasties, and cast...well most of the flashier AD&D destructive type spells.
> 
> 'Soulcatcher'...was flat out insane.  Personality wise, she'd probably fit right in with some of Sheilawizs's mages.  The sort of person who'd expend insane resources on what would amount to a minor prank, or destroy a large city on a whim.  The implication was she devoured souls to fuel her magic, but the souls were not fully digested, which manifested in the form of her speaking to herself and others in a whole slew of radically different voices.  She was fond of illusions, charms, and necromatic type magic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It may be a little difficult for me to take part in this thread, because I have read very few Fantasy books compared to what many of you have read... I am sure it will be fun, anyway =)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...what gives?  Are you busy with life or are you reading romances, classics, or something else?
> 
> -0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-
> 
> That said, a few more wizards for your consideration:
> 
> Pug - from Feists 'Riftwar' and subsequent books.  He originally had a failed apprenticeship as a lesser mage before being captured and taken to another planet where he recieved training as a 'Great One'  Lesser mages in this system are essentially magical tinkerers, mixing potions, making amulets, and fabricating magical one-offs with a few illusions and charms thrown in.  Great Ones practice a mostly mental sort of magic: fireballs, telekinesis, levitation, that sort of thing.  Ultimately, Pug mastered both sorts of magic and went on to pick up some tricks from the elves.  He became an expert on Gate magic, though not so great at teleportation.
> 
> Macros the Black - also from the Riftwar saga.  Pugs mentor, a magician with a murky past extending back several centuries.  He had all of Pug's skills plus time travel.
> 
> Nakor - Another of Pugs associates.  A standout personality wise: despite an amazing range of abilities, he insisted he was no magician, but merely knew some tricks.  Said tricks included a sort of portable gate at the bottom of his knapsack to a fruit warehouse, and an assortment of illusions and charms.
> 
> -----
> 
> Nevyn, from Kerr's 'Deverry' series.  Most think him a traveling herbalist, but he is actually a master of elemental magic: the various elemental lords have granted him authority over a quarter of their subjects - and most magic in this system is elemental based.  Apart from that, he can shapechange into a giant bird, speak mind to mind over vast distances, and work a large number of petty charms and illusions.  Because of an arrogant screwup while an apprentice, he is cursed to live a vastly longer than normal lifespan.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Legendary Sidekick

Devor said:


> For me, these kinds of battles are poor reflections because these matches focus on raw power, and none of the subtleties or character which actually make the wizards impressive to a reader.
> 
> Let me create a character that casts his magic by drawing on the life energy of those surrounding him, killing them at once, just so he can cast a spell that creates the tissue paper he needs to blow his nose.  Assuming the fight starts with characters in proximate range of each other, this wizard wins at once.


Dr. Manhattan can kill with a thought, and he can reassemble himself. He wins no matter the opponent, because he can bend matter at will and he cannot die. (Of course, my own cheap overpowered character can beat Manhattan's willpower with "won'tpower" which negates everything.)

But seriously, while "my wizard can beat up your wizard" and making a cheap, overpowered characters are fun things to do, I agree with the point that power level is only relevant to the story. In Dr. Manhattan's case, his unmatched power works for the story because his role is to be the super being who could save the world if he cared, but he doesn't, so he gets duped by the world's smartest hero-turned-villain and kills the best guy in the entire superhero genre.

In conclusion, I hate Dr. Manhattan.




The big, blue @#%*!


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## Mindfire

Not sure if this is cheating but...

The Dragonborn, from Skyrim. 
In a relatively short period of time, the Dragonborn: 


Defeated the dragon god Alduin and slay countless ordinary dragons.

Traveled to the land of the dead and returned.

Mastered over 20 dragon shouts which give him the ability to do things like summon dragons and ancient heroes, breath fire and frost, control the weather, become intangible, decimate enemies vitality, command animals, instill fear into foes, and blast enemies with a wall of pure force.

Become a powerful warrior, assassin, and master of Tamriel's arcane arts, allowing him to attack with fire, frost, or lightning, or summon powerful daedra to attack his foes.

Gained the blessing of and carried artifacts related to several gods and daedra, increasing his power and knowledge.

Confronted and killed countless undead, including the dreaded Dragon Priests.

Read two Elder Scrolls without succumbing to blindness.

Became a powerful werewolf and/or vampire lord and killed the Vampire Lord Harkon.

There's probably more that I'm forgetting.


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## Mindfire

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Dr. Manhattan can kill with a thought, and he can reassemble himself. He wins no matter the opponent, because he can bend matter at will and he cannot die. (Of course, my own cheap overpowered character can beat Manhattan's willpower with "won'tpower" which negates everything.)
> 
> But seriously, while "my wizard can beat up your wizard" and making a cheap, overpowered characters are fun things to do, I agree with the point that power level is only relevant to the story. In Dr. Manhattan's case, his unmatched power works for the story because his role is to be the super being who could save the world if he cared, but he doesn't, so he gets duped by the world's smartest hero-turned-villain and kills the best guy in the entire superhero genre.
> 
> In conclusion, I hate Dr. Manhattan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The big, blue @#%*!



I think somebody like the Spectre or Galactus could take Dr. Manhattan.


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## Sheilawisz

@ThinkerX: Thanks for those descriptions, both the Lady and Soulcatcher sound like really powerful and deadly characters!! Actually I like that style of Magic, I mean Magic defined as a really awe-inspiring and terrible power...

Maybe I have not read as many Fantasy books as others here in Mythic Scribes because, for some reason, Fantasy is so strong in the English-speaking world and relatively rare in other languages. All the Fantasy series that people talk about are English language works, while most of the books that I have read in my life are not.

@Mindfire: That Dragonborn sounds great!!

Well, we have to decide which characters will take part in the first battle. I suggest... The Lady vs the White Witch from Narnia =)

What do you think?


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## Reaver

Legendary Sidekick said:


> In conclusion, I hate Dr. Manhattan.
> The big, blue @#%*!



I hate Dr. Tits on a Bull too.


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## Mindfire

Sheilawisz said:


> @ThinkerX: Thanks for those descriptions, both the Lady and Soulcatcher sound like really powerful and deadly characters!! Actually I like that style of Magic, I mean Magic defined as a really awe-inspiring and terrible power...
> 
> Maybe I have not read as many Fantasy books as others here in Mythic Scribes because, for some reason, Fantasy is so strong in the English-speaking world and relatively rare in other languages. All the Fantasy series that people talk about are English language works, while most of the books that I have read in my life are not.
> 
> @Mindfire: That Dragonborn sounds great!!
> 
> Well, we have to decide which characters will take part in the first battle. I suggest... The Lady vs the White Witch from Narnia =)
> 
> What do you think?



While I will defend Gandalf, I'm not sure the Witch has a prayer. If she could get close enough to use her wand that's one thing, but if not... Anyway, the Witch's greatest power (aside from making it always Winter but never Christmas) came from her ability to deceive, manipulate, and intimidate, not necessarily from her magic. She was far stronger and more powerful than an ordinary human, but probably not on the level of some of the other wizards named here. But then again, we don't really know much about what the Witch could do. Lewis didn't show off her powers much. She was shown to be more of a temptress and a tyrant than a warrior or battlemage. 

Now if the battle takes place in Charn however... that's a different story. The Witch, when she was known as simply Jadis, managed to destroy her entire planet because she had discovered the greatest power known to her people: the Deplorable Word, a one-word spell that destroyed all life except the one who spoke it. But it only works in Charn (I think). If the battle takes place there, all Jadis has to do is speak the Deplorable Word and even the Lady will drop dead. But outside of Charn, the Lady has a definite edge.


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## Reaver

Just my opinion but I think that stories with overpowered characters are pure schlock and nothing more. If you have beings that are so powerful that they cannot ever be destroyed and who can undo entire universes with a word, what challenge is there for them? That's the problem I have with the later versions of D&D that allow players to play as demi-gods and gods. It's just lazy writing with no real originality.

Just like in The Legendary One's earlier example with Dr. Manhattan. He's so ridiculously powerful  he's totally useless.


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## Sheilawisz

The battle cannot take place in Charn because it was destroyed, right??

I would say that, for this fight, we should have the Lady invading Narnia so the White Witch steps forward to engage the newcomer in battle. If the Lady can fly (I understand that she can) then she can hit the Witch from above, but what if the Witch tries to transform her into stone??

Can the Lady simply throw some sort of highly destructive blast and wipe out the Witch and her armies with a single attack?


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## Devor

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Dr. Manhattan can kill with a thought, and he can reassemble himself.



He's also not a wizard.  If a wizard is a human(oid) who casts spells, then it's simple.  Since my guy kills at the start of the spell - as a component of the spell, before he even knows what to do with the petty magic he gains - then he kills first.

More seriously, I would nominate one of the Ravenloft characters, Vecna, as a contender for ultimate wizard.




Reaver said:


> Just my opinion but I think that stories with overpowered characters are pure schlock and nothing more.



I've yet to read a story where I thought super-powered wizards were done well, but I haven't read most of the stories mentioned here so far.


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## Reaver

Devor said:


> He's also not a wizard.  If a wizard is a human(oid) who casts spells, then it's simple.



You have to be a human(oid) to qualify as a wizard? What other characteristics define a wizard?


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## Devor

Reaver said:


> You have to be a human and old to qualify as a wizard? What other characteristics define a wizard?



As in humanoid.  With an i.


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## Reaver

Devor said:


> As in humanoid.  With an i.



Yeah, I fixed it.


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## Mindfire

Sheilawisz said:


> The battle cannot take place in Charn because it was destroyed, right??/QUOTE]
> 
> Well, sort of. All life on Charn was destroyed, but the world itself still exists (in ruins.) Jadis was still living on Charn in a kind of suspended animation before she was reawakened by Polly and Digory using a magic bell. After that she accompanied them to England and Narnia, but her true invasion didn't happen until many years later when the Tree of Protection died.


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## Steerpike

It's all relative. In books with high-powered characters, the obstacles they face are proportionate. There are plenty of very well-done books with characters having extremely high levels of power. The Black Company books are very good. Steven Erikson's Malazan books fall into this category as well. The Elric books (and the rest of the Eternal Champion books, for that matter). Roger Zelazny's books often follow characters that are godlike or close to it - like his Amber books, This Immortal, or The Lord of Light. All excellent works of fiction. It comes down to balancing the high-powered characters with obstacles that are worthy of them.


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## Devor

Mindfire said:


> Well, sort of. All life on Charn was destroyed, but the world itself still exists (in ruins.)



After Jadis left, Aslan closed the . . . . well?  Portal?  Thing to Charn, implying that it was destroyed.




Steerpike said:


> It'd all relative. In books with high-powered characters, the obstacles they face are proportionate. There are plenty of very well-done books with characters having extremely high levels of power.



I'm sure.  And I do want to try a couple of them.

I find extremely high power levels to be a turnoff in more ways than one, though.  There's something dehumanizing about it.  Like nobody else really counts.  And a few other things which make me lose interest.  But again, I haven't read any that were any good.


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## ThinkerX

> Maybe I have not read as many Fantasy books as others here in Mythic Scribes because, for some reason, Fantasy is so strong in the English-speaking world and relatively rare in other languages. All the Fantasy series that people talk about are English language works, while most of the books that I have read in my life are not.



Ah...

Is this still the case?  Feists 'Riftwar' and Kerr's 'Deverry' series are still fairly easy to find (and the former, I believe has been widely translated, though I'm less sure about the Deverry series).

On another site, I exchanged posts with a person who grew up in India, who said the only SF/Fantasy he had access to were the works of Asimov, Clarke, and Heinlin, plus some horribly written russian stuff.



> I would say that, for this fight, we should have the Lady invading Narnia so the White Witch steps forward to engage the newcomer in battle. If the Lady can fly (I understand that she can) then she can hit the Witch from above, but what if the Witch tries to transform her into stone??



The Lady would be on a flying carpet.  The larger ones could hold something like six or eight people.   Normally carpet flying requires a mages full attention, but the Lady is top notch.  As to what offensive magics - Cook tended to be a bit vague about the details of really powerful offensive spells.  Probably something along the lines of an AD&D 'Fireball' or 'Lightning Bolt'.  

As to the Witch turning the Lady to stone...hmmm...the Lady does have substantial skill at defensive magics, but to manage that, combined with flying the carpet and an offensive spell...might be pushing her abilities.


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## Mindfire

Devor said:


> After Jadis left, Aslan closed the . . . . well?  Portal?  Thing to Charn, implying that it was destroyed.



I always thought that meant Charn simply couldn't be accessed from outside, not that it was wiped from existence completely.


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## Sheilawisz

@Mindfire and ThinkerX: Well, maybe Charn still existed but it was so ruined that even Jadis was in a state of suspended animation there. It does not sound like a good setting for a battle, and even if the Lady entered Charn, would it be possible for the Witch to use the Deplorable Word again in the same world??

It's better to have the battle take place in Narnia or some other world.

I think that if the Lady can control the flying carpet and attack with some kind of devastating magical blast at the same time, the Witch would lose the battle because, as far as I know, she cannot fly... I wanted to support the White Witch, but it seems like it takes a more powerful character to fight the Lady.

In the Narnia movie Aslan killed the Witch with a single bite, so I guess that she was vulnerable to physical harm despite her magical abilities.

Who would be a good match for the Lady?

@Reaver and Devor: In my own Fantasy books, my Mages could be considered as over-powerful characters. However, they can be destroyed in battle (which is depicted often in the stories) and they find their limitations too, often caused by other Mages and by a variety of obstacles that are magical in nature.

They have magical troubles, so they cannot use their powers to solve everything instantly and live free of challenges.

I do agree that there is something dehumanizing about really powerful characters, but there is something fascinating about them as well =)


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## Mindfire

Sheilawisz said:


> Who would be a good match for the Lady?



The Dragonborn. And failing that, the Nerevarine.


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## Mindfire

Btw, Sheila, something about your Mages reminds me of the Time Lords. Not sure why.


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## Sheilawisz

What are the Time Lords??

Well, the Lady has already won the first battle of this thread. I would like to have a different match before the Lady fights again (Dragonborn vs Lady sounds cool to me!) what about... Voldemort vs Gandalf? That's an interesting comparison...

Where would they fight?


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## Phietadix

Sheilawisz said:


> What are the Time Lords??



They're from Doctor Who.


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## Mindfire

Phietadix said:


> They're from Doctor Who.



They're also a lot like your mages, Sheila, but less self-centered. lol


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## Sheilawisz

I have checked out the Wikipedia article about the Time Lords, and they are not really like the Mages of my Fantasy stories. I have never given a more detailed description of them here in Mythic Scribes, but here it goes now:

1- They are called Lallhyaks. They live in very high mountains, in two cities that are separated by a forest in a valley. Lallhyaks are culturally divided into two kinds: Lisskas and Lyflays.

2- The Lisskas live in Lisskalya city while the Lyflays live in Lyflayrel.

3- The Lallhyaks have bodies that belong to the Aylar species. The most obvious differences are that Aylars have long pointy ears, long furry tails, claws instead of hands, fangs and great colourful eyes. The common people in their world are Aylar too, and all Aylars have deadly powers fueled by radiation inside their bodies.

4- The Lallhyaks dress with simple dresses in white or gray, together with long cloaks (similar to Amanda Seyfried's character in Red Riding Hood). Lisskas wear silvery cloaks while the Lyflays wear purple.

5- They do not really need their bodies. They use bodies just to interact more directly with the world. Lallhyaks do not need to sleep, drink or eat, but they do those things for fun. It does not matter if something destroys their bodies, they can make new bodies appear out of nowhere or stay without body if they want.

6- Without a body, a Lallhyak looks like a purple spark/light thing. She may be invisible instead.

7- They have a Monarchy system of government and are passionate about their Queens and Royal Families.

8- Lallhyaks enjoy theatre, acting, skiing, candies, plum juice, red wine, burning fireworks and ice skating.

9- They are only vaguely interested in the world outside their mountains, but they sometimes visit the cities of the common people when they want to go shopping.

I was thinking that this Wizard vs Wizard thread can be open to your own characters as well, if you want to send them to battle... Maybe it would be difficult to compare my Lallhyaks to other characters, but I can give a quick description of their magical capabilities if necesary =)


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## Sheilawisz

Any ideas for the _Gandalf vs Voldemort_ match??

I am not sure what are the real capabilities of Gandalf, so I have to imagine him fighting with the same Magic that he demonstrated in the books and movies... It would be unfair if Gandalf gets help from the Valar, while Voldemort would also lack of the Horcruxes in order to have a fair fight.

If one of them gets killed, that's it... No coming back.

I guess that Voldemort's first move would be the Avada Kedavra, so how would Gandalf stop it??


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## Mindfire

Well Avada Kedavra apparently requires line-of-sight and can be blocked if anything gets in the way. It was this simple exploit that allowed Luke Skywalker to best Harry Potter on Death Battle. (Though I don't agree with all of their conclusions. Batman beaten by Spider-Man? Please.) Gandalf could either duck behind something or, more likely, simply put up a shield of magic light. That thing stood up to a balrog wailing on it with a sword of dark fire. I'm pretty sure it can tank Avada Kedavra.


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## Sheilawisz

That would be a really cool scene in a movie: Voldemort casts the Avada Kedavra, and Gandalf screams: _You shall not pass!!_ stopping the attack with a shield of that magical light =)

Voldemort would be surprised at this, maybe even more surprised when Gandalf points his staff at him and sends him flying far with that invisible force thing (from the movie... can Gandalf do that in the books as well?) then Voldemort lands on his feet, teleporting to appear right behind Gandalf at the same time that he casts a giant snake of magical fire.

I really want Gandalf to win this because he is so cool while Voldemort is stupid, but I guess that Voldemort will win thanks to all the various magical powers that he can command...


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## Mindfire

Sheilawisz said:


> That would be a really cool scene in a movie: Voldemort casts the Avada Kedavra, and Gandalf screams: _You shall not pass!!_ stopping the attack with a shield of that magical light =)
> 
> Voldemort would be surprised at this, maybe even more surprised when Gandalf points his staff at him and sends him flying far with that invisible force thing (from the movie... can Gandalf do that in the books as well?) then Voldemort lands on his feet, teleporting to appear right behind Gandalf at the same time that he casts a giant snake of magical fire.
> 
> I really want Gandalf to win this because he is so cool while Voldemort is stupid, but I guess that Voldemort will win thanks to all the various magical powers that he can command...



I don't think you can necessarily call a victory for Voldemort here. Compared to the powers present in the LOTR trilogy, Voldemort is pretty weaksauce. Can you imagine him staring down the balrog? I doubt it. Honestly, I think the Witch-King could easily take Voldemort, and he's just a human shade while Gandalf is a Maia. (Of course, the Witch-King also has that whole "cannot be killed by a man" thing going for him.)

As for Gandalf, I actually think he could best Voldemort quite quickly. He managed to reflexively deflect an arrow from Legolas. He disintegrated Gimli's throwing axe, and he made Aragorn's sword so hot he couldn't hold it, defeating them all in the span of about 10 seconds, all while blinding them with intense white light. How is Voldemort going to cast spells if he _can't hold his wand_?


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## Steerpike

Yeah, I don't think Voldemort would prevail either. I'd give that one to Gandalf. A direct comparison is again difficult.


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## Sheilawisz

Well, Voldemort would conjure a magical shield to protect himself from Gandalf's dazzling light and heat attacks. Still, you did not answer how would Gandalf react to the tactical Apparition and a huge snake of fire attacking from behind!!

Anyway, Voldemort is so dumb that he would use Avada Kedavra again, and then Gandalf would learn how to send the curse straight back at Voldemort and that would be the end of the fight, so I agree: Gandalf wins after all...

Can you suggest another battle?


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## Mindfire

Sheilawisz said:


> Well, Voldemort would conjure a magical shield to protect himself from Gandalf's dazzling light and heat attacks. Still, you did not answer how would Gandalf react to the tactical Apparition and a huge snake of fire attacking from behind!!
> 
> Anyway, Voldemort is so dumb that he would use Avada Kedavra again, and then Gandalf would learn how to send the curse straight back at Voldemort and that would be the end of the fight, so I agree: Gandalf wins after all...
> 
> Can you suggest another battle?



Fire snake? _Fire_ snake?


> “You cannot pass," he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. *The dark fire will not avail you*, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.”



Tactical apparition is something I'm not sure the LOTR universe has an equivalent to. But being able to teleport will only get you so far.

Next battle? Merlin (TV show) vs Eragon (before godmode was switched on).


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## Sheilawisz

The fire snake is cool!!

I do not know much about the powers of Merlin and Eragon, but I'll research and then I'll try to post something. I know that Eragon as a character is kind of hated, but what is the extent of his powers??

Anyone interested in bringing your own characters to battle?


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## Ireth

Mindfire said:


> I don't think you can necessarily call a victory for Voldemort here. Compared to the powers present in the LOTR trilogy, Voldemort is pretty weaksauce. Can you imagine him staring down the balrog? I doubt it. Honestly, I think the Witch-King could easily take Voldemort, and he's just a human shade while Gandalf is a Maia. (Of course, the Witch-King also has that whole "cannot be killed by a man" thing going for him.)
> 
> As for Gandalf, I actually think he could best Voldemort quite quickly. He managed to reflexively deflect an arrow from Legolas. He disintegrated Gimli's throwing axe, and he made Aragorn's sword so hot he couldn't hold it, defeating them all in the span of about 10 seconds, all while blinding them with intense white light. How is Voldemort going to cast spells if he _can't hold his wand_?



Re: Witch-king vs. Voldemort, I think Voldemort might win -- the WK can't be killed by a man (he was killed by a *woman*), but Voldemort explicitly says that "I am not a man... I am much, much more than a man." Also Hagrid says in the first book, "Dunno if there was enough human left in him to die."


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## Sheilawisz

That's true, Ireth.

Voldemort is not even human anymore after all that he did to his soul, so he cannot be considered a _man_ (he is more like a magical anomaly) and so he would defeat the Witch King in battle =)

I am researching Merlin and Eragon now...


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## Mindfire

Using member-made characters would be tricky, but it's doable as long as everyone sticks to the honor system.


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## TWErvin2

I would think that Gandalf would have a tough time surviving against Elric, especially with Stormbringer.

Sethra Lavode from Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos series would be a pretty difficult wizard foe to overcome, her magical weapon in hand or not.

High Lord Kevin (Landwaster), especially wielding the Staff of Law, from Steven R. Donaldson's Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever books, would be quite formidable as well.

Speaking of crossing books and magic systems, that would be why, for example, wizards from my books wouldn't fare well against say Elric or Sethra Lavode, or High Lord Kevin. Similarly wizards say Zelazny's Amber Chronicles Corwin, or Wizards from Frad Saberhagen's The Swords books, such as The Dark King, (Vilkata) who could among other things, summon demons and such, would be dangerous, especially with his sword of power (the Mindsword, that could even command the gods), but lack some of the raw power for a one on one. But Corwin in months could raise an army of a hundred thousand, and travel any reality almost at will, which makes him powerful in another way.

Sometimes it is the character, and sometimes the weapons. That's why I think possibly Sethra Lavode, even without her powerful dagger (Iceflame, I believe it's called) could stand and fight well against almost any character. Kevin Landwaster would too, even without the Staff of Law. But Elric, while powerful, would be much less of a threat without his sword. Again, the strength of the weapons goes to the world and magical system.


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## Sheilawisz

Those are so many Fantasy characters that I do not know, they all seem to be very powerful... we have many possibilities for a variety of battles in this thread!!

This is how the scores are so far in _Wizard vs Wizard_:

1- The Lady: 1
2- Soulcatcher: not fighting yet.
3- Quick Ben: not fighting yet.

4- Gandalf: 1
5- Voldemort: 1
6- White Witch: 0
7- Witch King of Angmar: 0

8- Tom Bombadil: not fighting yet.
9- Elric of Melnibone: not fighting yet.
10- Dragonborn: Still has to fight.

11- Merlin: fight in progress.
12- Eragon: fighting Merlin at the moment.

Today I have watched an episode of that _Merlin_ show (quite entertaining) and read about its Magic system in the Wiki about the series. I don't know about Eragon... Could someone with more knowledge explain who would win the fight??


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## Mindfire

The thing about Merlin is that as the show goes on, he increases in power. So really the question is which season of the show are you looking at? Merlin's pretty weak in season one, but by the end of season 5 he's extremely powerful.


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## Sheilawisz

Then, let's have the most powerful, end of Season 5 Merlin fighting the famously over-powered Eragon.

I really liked the Merlin magic system after reading about it in the Wiki, while in the other hand, I do not like what I know so far about the Eragon magic system... I am going to support Merlin in this one.

Oh, I almost forgot!!

13- Captain Sheyla Vaylaszkysh of Lisskalya: So far, not allowed to fight because she would be too dangerous for the others!!


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## Mindfire

Sheilawisz said:


> 13- Captain Sheyla Vaylaszkysh of Lisskalya: So far, not allowed to fight because she would be too dangerous for the others!!



We could have her fight Melkor.


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## danr62

Well, I don't know much about the Merlin TV show. Also, I suppose it depends on when Eragon is fighting. Is it after the end of the last book? If so, he would be pretty tough to beat. Slightly before the end of the book he would be a lot less powerful.


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## Mindfire

danr62 said:


> Well, I don't know much about the Merlin TV show. Also, I suppose it depends on when Eragon is fighting. Is it after the end of the last book? If so, he would be pretty tough to beat. Slightly before the end of the book he would be a lot less powerful.



Well, it was specified that this is Eragon _before_ godmode.


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## danr62

Oh, right. In that case, I don't think he's all that overpowered. In fact, he's probably less powerful than most of the elves of his own world. Then again, he could suck the life force out of every living thing nearby including Merlin, unless he has some kind of defense against that.


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## Mindfire

danr62 said:


> Oh, right. In that case, I don't think he's all that overpowered. In fact, he's probably less powerful than most of the elves of his own world. Then again, he could suck the life force out of every living thing nearby including Merlin, unless he has some kind of defense against that.



Near the end of season 5, Morgana tried something similar on him. His powers fizzled out for a while, but they came back shortly because apparently Merlin is magic itself incarnate.


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## danr62

Hmm, ok. Well, in Eragon's case if he sucks all of the life out of something, it dies. This power is then used to fuel a spell of some sort. For instance, Eragon might suck the life out of the nearby vegitation and small animals in order to launch a powerful spell. 

So if he could drain a substantial amount of Merlin's power, he could then turn that power against Merlin. However, in order to do this he would need to break through whatever mental barriers Merlin has in place. Sort of a battle of the wills. I'm guessing that Merlin would have some pretty tough mental fortitude and Eragon wouldn't be able to get through.

But Eragon also is a capable physical fighter, and he has his dragon for a backup. So his dragon could potentially distract Merlin which might give Eragon a way to beat him.

I'd say without his dragon Eragon would be toast, with her though...


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## Mindfire

danr62 said:


> Hmm, ok. Well, in Eragon's case if he sucks all of the life out of something, it dies. This power is then used to fuel a spell of some sort. For instance, Eragon might suck the life out of the nearby vegitation and small animals in order to launch a powerful spell.
> 
> So if he could drain a substantial amount of Merlin's power, he could then turn that power against Merlin. However, in order to do this he would need to break through whatever mental barriers Merlin has in place. Sort of a battle of the wills. I'm guessing that Merlin would have some pretty tough mental fortitude and Eragon wouldn't be able to get through.
> 
> But Eragon also is a capable physical fighter, and he has his dragon for a backup. So his dragon could potentially distract Merlin which might give Eragon a way to beat him.
> 
> I'd say without his dragon Eragon would be toast, with her though...



Speaking of dragons, Merlin also has a dragon, the Elder Dragon Kilgarrah (think an orange-red Glaedr). Merlin is also a dragon lord and can speak the dragon language. This gives him the power to summon Kilgarrah to him from anywhere at any time, and also the power to issue commands to a dragon that they are _unable to refuse_, whether they want to or not. This power is, I think, limited in that it cannot coerce a dragon to attack its allies. I say this because Merlin has ample opportunity to command Morgana's dragon to attack her and has not done so, instead opting to shoo it away.

EDIT: Merlin is not a trained warrior, though he can handle a sword well enough. He also has access to the dragon-forged sword Excalibur. While this version of Excalibur does not make the user invincible, it can kill magical creatures and is nigh-indestructable. Probably an even match for Eragon's Zar'roc (or Brisingr depending on what time in Eragon's development this is). Merlin also has access to a Sidhe staff, though he rarely ever uses it.

EDIT: Scratch that part about not being able to coerce it into attacking allies. Apparently dragonlords _can_ do this, but Merlin opted not to.


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## danr62

Ok, I think in this case Merlin wins. He has his own dragon to combat Sapphira so he can focus on Eragon, and I doubt Eragon is going to get through Merlin's mental defenses, which is paramount in a Wizard vs. Wizard battle from Eragon's world.


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## ThinkerX

> 13- Captain Sheyla Vaylaszkysh of Lisskalya: So far, not allowed to fight because she would be too dangerous for the others!!



Hmmm...a possible foe here would be the 'Dominator', the 'Lady's' very ex husband.  Utterly evil and immensely powerful, capable of smiting entire cities...even when dead.  In fact he did just exactly that in a 'Black Company' book - despite having no body and his soul imprisoned in a silver spike (or was it an iron spike?) his malignance nearly destroyed a substantial city brimming with magic users.

Given their respective capabilities, best to 'observe' this contest from a heavily reinforced bunker twenty miles away...

Possible alternative, from the same series (and much nicer) - 'The White Rose'.  Sort of an 'anti-magician'.  Radiates a field which negates magic.  Can control this field to some extent; turned up 'full power' she was able to cancel out even the Dominators magic.

Not sure what effect a powerful anti-magic field would have on Captain Sheyla Vaylaszkysh.


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## Sheilawisz

Thanks for the interesting discussion- That seems to decide the battle in favor of Merlin, especially if he starts to use some devastating fire spells. I would have taken the dragons out of the match because this is _Wizard vs Wizard_ but that was a good analysis after all =)

1 for Merlin and 0 for Eragon, so far!!

Now, I am still not sure about letting Captain Vaylaszkysh enter the magical frays of Wizard vs Wizard, even against powerful characters like Morgoth or the Dominator... This is a description of her basic magical capabilities:

1- She could enter a fight in the form of an invisible, untouchable presence. In this case most magical attacks like fireballs or lightning would not even touch her, beside the difficulty of fighting something that you cannot even see.

2- Even in this body-less state, she can deliver attacks of a terrible invisible force to tear her enemies to pieces, blow them up or just crush them. Her mind-destroying powers work well in this state too, not to mention that her real magical weapons can just come out of nowhere when you least expect it!!

3- The Captain counts with magical shields (a blue bubble-like thing around her, visible only when it takes a hit) that are even stronger than the shields of an average Lallhyak. The only way to cause damage to this shield is by using the all-annihilating and soul-killing weapons that Lallhyaks and other similar Mages have... Non-magical attacks have no chance.

4- Even if you destroy her body, she would not care- A body-less Lallhyak can simply enter your own body and burn your soul from within, burning your body as well... Then, she can make a new body for herself appear out of nowhere when she wants.

5- The Captain, being a high-level Lallhyak, can choose to take the form of a Lyshayl flame and wrap herself around her enemies with unbelievable power.

6- Instead of killing her enemies or destroying their minds, a Lallhyak can simply choose to turn them into cookies, wine glasses, a pair of skis, crystal statues or anything else that she wants!!

7- If a Lallhyak wants it, a dragon or any other monster that she can think of will appear out of nowhere and attack you. She may use any crazy, reality-warping trick that she can imagine, even without saying words or using spells: All you see are violet sparks or a flash of white light, and _poof!_ You are a cookie, or maybe you are trapped in a separate reality inside a crystal.

All of this would be without her real magical weapons (Lyshayl, for instance) and other things that Lallhyaks can do. Anti-magic forces would have no effect, because the only way to deal with these monstrosities is to hit them with the same magical, soul-killing and unstoppable weapons that they use to kill each other.

What do you think? Should I let the Captain enter the Wizard vs Wizard??


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## ThinkerX

> All of this would be without her real magical weapons (Lyshayl, for instance) and other things that Lallhyaks can do. Anti-magic forces would have no effect, because the only way to deal with these monstrosities is to hit them with the same magical, soul-killing and unstoppable weapons that they use to kill each other.



Not sure about this.  The beauty of the 'White Roses' (there were two, one historical, one contemporary, plus others implied in the series) was that ALL magic was negated in their presence.  It simply stopped working.  They were, essentially walking 'dead magic zones'.  Hence, it seems to me any spell or creature conjured by your good (?) captain would simply 'fizzle out' - I think.  Maybe. I don't know what it would do to the Captain.

Apart from the 'null field' though, the White Roses were ordinary people, though the contemporary one was well trained at arms and very good at tactics.  The Lady did cancel the White Roses ...ability... via a 'true name spell' (which took some serious doing considering the White Rose was a deaf/mute peasant girl).


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## Sheilawisz

Then, we would have the laws and rules of both universes coming into contradiction:

The White Roses' ability to negate absolutely all Magic and, in the other hand, the absolute fact that a Lallhyak's only vulnerability are the same weapons that they use to fight and kill other Lallhyaks.

This is why these crossover comparisons are flawed, but it's fun anyway...

Maybe for a battle we would have to establish a new rule, like the anti-magic fields would work by repelling and confusing Lallhyaks but would fail to really stop them. Anyway, if the White Roses were ordinary people then they are not Wizards/Mages and cannot enter Wizard vs Wizard, I think.

If nobody suggests other battle, I want to have the Lady vs Gandalf next!!


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## ThinkerX

> Now, I am still not sure about letting Captain Vaylaszkysh enter the magical frays of Wizard vs Wizard, even against powerful characters like Morgoth or the Dominator... This is a description of her basic magical capabilities:
> 
> 1- She could enter a fight in the form of an invisible, untouchable presence. In this case most magical attacks like fireballs or lightning would not even touch her, beside the difficulty of fighting something that you cannot even see.
> 
> 2- Even in this body-less state, she can deliver attacks of a terrible invisible force to tear her enemies to pieces, blow them up or just crush them. Her mind-destroying powers work well in this state too, not to mention that her real magical weapons can just come out of nowhere when you least expect it!!
> 
> 3- The Captain counts with magical shields (a blue bubble-like thing around her, visible only when it takes a hit) that are even stronger than the shields of an average Lallhyak. The only way to cause damage to this shield is by using the all-annihilating and soul-killing weapons that Lallhyaks and other similar Mages have... Non-magical attacks have no chance.
> 
> 4- Even if you destroy her body, she would not care- A body-less Lallhyak can simply enter your own body and burn your soul from within, burning your body as well... Then, she can make a new body for herself appear out of nowhere when she wants.
> 
> 5- The Captain, being a high-level Lallhyak, can choose to take the form of a Lyshayl flame and wrap herself around her enemies with unbelievable power.
> 
> 6- Instead of killing her enemies or destroying their minds, a Lallhyak can simply choose to turn them into cookies, wine glasses, a pair of skis, crystal statues or anything else that she wants!!
> 
> 7- If a Lallhyak wants it, a dragon or any other monster that she can think of will appear out of nowhere and attack you. She may use any crazy, reality-warping trick that she can imagine, even without saying words or using spells: All you see are violet sparks or a flash of white light, and poof! You are a cookie, or maybe you are trapped in a separate reality inside a crystal.
> 
> All of this would be without her real magical weapons (Lyshayl, for instance) and other things that Lallhyaks can do. Anti-magic forces would have no effect, because the only way to deal with these monstrosities is to hit them with the same magical, soul-killing and unstoppable weapons that they use to kill each other.



Ok...are the stories featuring these all-powerful mages published or posted anywhere?

You seem to be playing around with what I think of as the 'dilemma of superiority'.  As I envision it, the usual situation runs something like this:

The world or nation is faced with a devastating enemy - usually a 'dark lord'.  A 'good guy' wizard of some stripe appears, who goes on to rapidly amass vast power.  Eventually, the good guy wizard vanquishes the dark lord.  Now the question is 'what then'?  The good guy wizard has beaten the 'best of the worst'.  In terms of sheer power, nothing can really challenge him, so how to continue with additional stories featuring the 'good guy wizard'?

The solutions I've seen include:

1) The handicap. Give the Good Guy Wizard a handicap in the next tale - he's injured, or he can't devote his full attention to the next villian because there is a supercritical superpowerful spell or ritual he has to see to in person.

2) Expand the horizons.  A new bad guy from a distant part of the world, either unknown or barely alluded to, shows up and challenges the Good Guy Wizard to the next round.

3) The human angle. Give the good guy wizard a wife and a house full of screaming scheming kids to worry about.  Time for earth shattering magic drops dramatically. 

4) The obligation. A part of the good guy's magic comes not from within, but from without, and the source must be appeased/controlled somehow. 

From what you've mentioned, options 1, 2 and 4 don't seem compatable with your world/system.  You might be doing 3 - miring the mages down in domestic details, but I get the impression you have something else going on.


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## Sheilawisz

Thank you for your comments about my descriptions of Lallhyaks, ThinkerX =)

The stories featuring them are currently a trilogy, but I want to expand it to seven novels when I can. I have not published any of them, who knows, maybe someday... and about the world/system of these stories, it's like this:

The first novel starts with the Candles War between the two magical cities, a conflict that the Queen of Lisskalya and the Crown Princess of Lyflayrel were trying to stop because they were friends in secret. It's more similar to _Romeo and Juliet_ than it is to Tolkien and other Fantasy works, with drama and romance and stuff.

Later in the series the Lallhyaks have trouble with similar Mages from other worlds, and yes, there is a kind-of Dark Lord character that eventually sends a large-scale attack against the Lallhyaks' world.

This is rather unusual Fantasy quite different to Tolkien style Fantasy, following a different type of world/system. I am sure that most Fantasy fans would not like it, so the probability of publishing it is very low in my opinion.


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## ThinkerX

> This is rather unusual Fantasy quite different to Tolkien style Fantasy, following a different type of world/system. I am sure that most Fantasy fans would not like it, so the probability of publishing it is very low in my opinion.



Post a few snippits in Showcase or in your portfolio - afterall, you have a board full of fantasy fans here...


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## Sheilawisz

Thank you ThinkerX, maybe I will share some little parts of that story in the Showcase, maybe of the first novel... I would have to translate the selected parts first, but it really makes me curious what the other Mythic Scribes members would think of it =)

Now, any ideas for the _Gandalf vs The Lady_ match??

Some members were saying that Gandalf would have no chance- Then, why is it that the Lady would defeat Gandalf so easily? What could Gandalf possibly do to defeat her or at least hold his own against the powerful sorceress?


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## ThinkerX

> Thank you ThinkerX, maybe I will share some little parts of that story in the Showcase, maybe of the first novel... I would have to translate the selected parts first, but it really makes me curious what the other Mythic Scribes members would think of it =)



Please do so.  If you deem it not sellable, there is always Wattpad...




> Some members were saying that Gandalf would have no chance- Then, why is it that the Lady would defeat Gandalf so easily? What could Gandalf possibly do to defeat her or at least hold his own against the powerful sorceress?



The Lady has a flying carpet...but Gandalf has a giant eagle for an aerial steed.  Plus, in Moria, Gandalf survived a miles deep plunge and was still fit to fight at the bottom.  I don't know if the Lady could fly or not without her carpet.  So...aerial contest, Gandalf knocks Lady off carpet...


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## Sheilawisz

After trying to research more about the Lady and what Magic is really like in _The Black Company_, I still do not have a clear picture of the extent of the Lady's power or why exactly she is so powerful...

What can she do to overcome Gandalf's magical shields? How can she stop Gandalf's own attacks??

That point about flying carpet vs giant eagle is good. I would ask now, how fast can the Lady's magic carpet fly? Can she defend herself against a giant eagle as she flies?

I think it may be unfair if Gandalf gets the eagle's help, so... what would happen if they were fighting on the ground??


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## Steerpike

Sorry, but the eagle wouldn't make a damn bit of difference. The Lady would still tear Gandalf apart.


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## Sheilawisz

What would the battle be like? How would the Lady defeat Gandalf so easily??

I have not read The Black Company, so please describe with more detail what the Magic system is like, why Gandalf would stand no chance in a battle. I want to defend Gandalf, but I would cheer for the Lady if I could understand better what she is really like.

I wish Tolkien had been a little clearer about how powerful his Wizards are, that would help too...


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## ThinkerX

WARNING: SOME SPOILERS:

-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-



> After trying to research more about the Lady and what Magic is really like in The Black Company, I still do not have a clear picture of the extent of the Lady's power or why exactly she is so powerful...



Thats Glen Cook for you.  The 'Black Company' series is written from the perspective of a 'grunt' - a nonmagical soldier in the field - rather than that of somebody who actually understands how magic works.  (Even in the later books, when the Lady herself takes over the role of company chronicler, she doesn't go into great detail about the magical end of things).  From Croakers perspective (he's a rather competent physician and primary narrator), he doesn't get much more out of the magic flying about than 'pretty lines of light' and 'Kawomph! - what happened to that hill?'  The theory and exact abilities get left out.  There is one exception, which drives much of the plot for book 3, which I'll get to in a bit.  Meanwhile:



> I have not read The Black Company, so please describe with more detail what the Magic system is like, why Gandalf would stand no chance in a battle. I want to defend Gandalf, but I would cheer for the Lady if I could understand better what she is really like.



What the Lady is like is one of the dominant plots of the series.  Eventually, with Croakers help, she goes from evil b*tch to...not so evil.  I think in part this is because in book 3, she looses her powers.  Which gets into the one magical element Cook 
did go into considerable detail on - and something I don't remember seeing duplicated in any work of fantasy since - the 'True Name' - though it was a biggie in the earlier 'Wizard of Earthsea' by LeGuin.

The 'Lady', Soulcatcher, Dominator, ect are not true names, but use names.  Names that it is safe for a wizard to use - because if somebody knows a wizards true name, they can compel the wizards obedience, or remove his/her power altogether. In book 3 of the Black Company, a low level wizard, not much more than a hedge mage, was responsible for a 'true name spell' which named the Lady and deprived her of power.  From mighty magician to ordinary person in the blink of an eye.  She did regain a portion of her powers later on, but that was something of a trap.

So...option 2 for Gandalf - if he knows her true name, she's toast.  And Gandalf, who is actually a powerful spirit being made flesh, might actually be capable of learning her true name through arcane methods.


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## Steerpike

Sheilawisz said:


> What would the battle be like? How would the Lady defeat Gandalf so easily??
> 
> I have not read The Black Company, so please describe with more detail what the Magic system is like, why Gandalf would stand no chance in a battle. I want to defend Gandalf, but I would cheer for the Lady if I could understand better what she is really like.
> 
> I wish Tolkien had been a little clearer about how powerful his Wizards are, that would help too...



Asking questions like this are pretty much meaningless where The Black Company is concerned, because that's not how it is written. The magic doesn't work along the lines of neat little fireballs, or Harry Potter-types spells. If you read the book, you'll see what I mean. The Lady is essentially of demi-god level power, and the protagonist in the first book, Croaker, notes that she's something like the essence of shadow itself, and if not evil incarnate than close enough to it not to make a difference. She's powerful enough that the first time she came around causing trouble she couldn't be killed but had to be "imprisoned" for 400 or 500 years. In The Black Company she's back, and by the time she's done she has laid waste to most of a continent and is probably responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths. But you can't just say "oh, what spell would she cast?" It doesn't work that way, and this again highlights a problem with trying to compare magic across books that are written in a vastly different manner. The best indicator that The Lady would have to be more powerful is that she is as powerful as I described above in a world where powerful, dangerous magic and powerful individuals are fairly prevalent. 

Same thing with Elric. In those books, magic is literally all over the place, and he's summoning gods and commanding them, killing other gods, and so on. If you try to do a straight comparison of him to a middle earth wizard, it turns into "no contest" in a hurry. But in reality the comparison can't be made because the settings in which they operate are too different.


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## Sheilawisz

All of that makes me very curious to read _The Black Company_, it does sound like a rather dark and grim Fantasy world with that really powerful, highly destructive Magic that is also my style...

Telling the story from the point of view of a common soldier without powers does make it difficult for the reader to grasp all the details about the Magic, but that example of _'pretty lines of light' and 'Kawomph! - what happened to that hill?'_ is a perfect clue to understand that it's way more flashy and destructive than Gandalf-style Magic.

However, I still believe that Gandalf's shields have a chance to take on the Lady's magical blasts... at least for some time. Then he could try to strike back with some of the powers seen in the movies, but if the Lady's magical defenses are as strong as her destructive blasts then Gandalf is outmatched.

The Lady's True-name weakness would be the only way for Gandalf to win, but I am starting to believe that the Lady would overpower him before he can try to figure that out...

Then, I would say that the Lady wins!! (_again!_)


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## Steerpike

Yeah if he learned her True Name, she'd be in trouble. That's the sort of thing you don't want to have happen to you in the world of the Black Company. Your True Name has power over you. You might like The Black Company. It's a fun read. It is kind of dark and gritty, but the narrator (name Croaker - he's the company physician) has a good narrative voice. The characters are interesting. I like Soulcatcher as a character, as well as most of the soldiers in "the company."

The only reason I think The Lady wins is because of the overall greater power level. Gandalf might be more powerful within the context of LotR than the Lady is within the context of The Black Company, but the power levels are so different that could can't easily put one up against the other because she's virtually a demigod. Same with the Malazan books (which were inspired in some parts by The Black Company). In the Malazan books you have gods running around interfering with things, mortals ascending to godhood, and so on. It puts the work on a totally different plane in terms of magic level than something like LotR, and so it seems to me at least that wizards in Malazan (like Quick Ben) would probably win against Gandalf as well. Same with Elric, and his summoning of and killing gods. 

So - I don't know. How do you make a fair comparison between them when the assumptions of the baseline power level in the worlds are so different?


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## Phietadix

The trouble is you don't know how powerful Ganfalf Really is. How do you know he doesn't have these amazing powers too?


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## Steerpike

Phietadix said:


> The trouble is you don't know how powerful Ganfalf Really is. How do you know he doesn't have these amazing powers too?



Sure. You can say that about any character if you're assuming powers beyond what is depicted. We can only go with we know. Considering that he let the balrog drag him into the depths, leaving the fellowship to blunder forward without him, I'm guessing he didn't have a huge arsenal of hidden powers he just wasn't using.


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## Mindfire

Steerpike said:


> So - I don't know. How do you make a fair comparison between them when the assumptions of the baseline power level in the worlds are so different?



You could try comparing relative power levels rather than absolute power levels. This would mean that if two wizards are on equivalent tiers in-universe, they would be considered as equals despite their worlds' disparate power baselines.

EDIT: 
The one hiccup is that the formula  doesn't hold for extremely low magic worlds.


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## Steerpike

Mindfire said:


> You could try comparing relative power levels rather than absolute power levels. This would mean that if two wizards are on equivalent tiers in-universe, they would be considered as equals despite their worlds' disparate power baselines.



You can, but then the advantage always goes to mages from low-magic settings, because in settings where there is little or no magic, those who have it can be very powerful in proportion to their world.


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## Mindfire

Steerpike said:


> You can, but then the advantage always goes to mages from low-magic settings, because in settings where there is little or no magic, those who have it can be very powerful in proportion to their world.



Ah. You ninja'd me before I could note that in my edit.

Also, given the Lady's vulnerability to her true name... I think Ged/Sparrowhawk from the Earthsea books could beat her. He's trained specifically to uncover others' true names.


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## Steerpike

Mindfire said:


> Ah. You ninja'd me before I could note that in my edit.
> 
> Also, given the Lady's vulnerability to her true name... I think Ged/Sparrowhawk from the Earthsea books could beat her. He's trained specifically to uncover others' true names.



The question is whether he could do it in time. There are plenty of people, including other very powerful and trained sorcerors, in the Black Company world who would have loved to have the true name of The Lady. Might be hard to get it before you're dead


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## Mindfire

Steerpike said:


> The question is whether he could do it in time. There are plenty of people, including other very powerful and trained sorcerors, in the Black Company world who would have loved to have the true name of The Lady. Might be hard to get it before you're dead



But in his worldthe entire magic system revolves around names. It's at the core of his training. I think that gives him a distinct advantage.


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## Mindfire

Next battle: Wheel of Time's Rand al'Thor vs Harry Potter's Dumbledore.

Bonus points for rhyming.


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## Sheilawisz

That would be an easy win for Dumbledore: Sure that Rand has more destructive firepower, but Dumbledore would simply transfigure him into a ferret before he can do anything.

Dumbledore could be teleporting to get out of the way of all the blasts anyway, and transfigure Rand when he catches him from behind. Plus, Dumbledore can be invisible, and set him on fire instantly...

Go, Dumbledore!!


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## Mindfire

Sheilawisz said:


> That would be an easy win for Dumbledore: Sure that Rand has more destructive firepower, but Dumbledore would simply transfigure him into a ferret before he can do anything.
> 
> Dumbledore could be teleporting to get out of the way of all the blasts anyway, and transfigure Rand when he catches him from behind. Plus, Dumbledore can be invisible, and set him on fire instantly...
> 
> Go, Dumbledore!!



Rand also is at a slight disadvantage in that Dumbledore would be immune to balefire, making his most powerful weapon useless.


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## Sheilawisz

Well, Dumbledore would still have to get out of the way of Balefire attacks, it would still be a destructive weapon (I think) even if Dumbledore is not part of the world/system of Rand's world.

Apparition and Disapparition (teleporting) is like moving faster than light, perfect to escape from attacks coming your way. Transfiguration may be regarded as a childish type of Magic, but in fact it would be a scary and dangerous weapon in a Magical battle.

I am sure that a character with Transfiguration powers always has an advantage over a character that does not have that power.


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## Steerpike

I wouldn't be sure it would be possible for Dumbledore to transfigure Rand. The guy seems to be pretty immune to magic attacks, particularly as you get to the end of the series. With Callandor in hand, perhaps much more so. Honestly, as Rand is presented in the Wheel of Time series, I don't see a magical attack from another person killing him, or even having a substantial effect on him.


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## Sheilawisz

That sounds like Rand is invincible within his own universe, but this is a battle against a type of reality-warping Magic from another universe that is completely different to the Magic of his world.

Dumbledore has a surprise factor with a Transfiguration attack, why not??

Also, in the little book about Quidditch it is explained that the Wizards can turn fire into a harmless state very easily with a simple spell, so that it just tickles you instead of burning. Most likely the same can be done to lightning bolts, and this could be the reason why elemental attacks are not used in the HP universe.


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## danr62

Why would Dumbledore be immune to balefire? If I recall, it wipes you out as if you never existed. How does coming from a different world make you immune to that?


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## Sheilawisz

I think that a Balefire attack would destroy Dumbledore if he gets hit, but it would not burn his existence backwards or whatever because that is related to the type of world/system where the WoT series takes place: Their reality system depends on threads or something, so it can get unraveled.

Dumbledore can teleport to get out of the way of Rand's attacks anyway, and Transfigure him to end the battle quickly =)

Also, Balefire could be countered by the Harry Potter world's own all-destroying super weapon: Fiendfyre.


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## TheWarlock

Kal Tor'ih Will defeat anything and everything


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## Sheilawisz

@Warlock: Who is Kal Tor'ih??

In case that is a character of your own creation, we have not decided to let our own characters enter the battles of Wizard vs Wizard. Maybe later, if this thread continues to draw attention and participation from other people in our community.

Welcome to Mythic Scribes =)


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## TheWarlock

That makes sense never mind


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## Sheilawisz

Why Fiendfyre is so cool!!

Well, the movie version of Fiendfyre was very nice but it was more dramatic in the book... basically it's a sentient, living form of cursed fire that destroys anything, even powerfully magical objects that cannot be destroyed in other ways.

This thing goes after its victims intent upon killing them, taking the form of unnaturally large and vicious flames and also a variety of monsters made of the same cursed fire.

Fiendfyre causes a firestorm of unbelievable rage really fast, the heat and smoke are unbearable and it's considered too dangerous to be used, maybe because it keeps spreading out of control if the Wizard who casts it is not skilled enough to master it.

A super Wizard like Dumbledore could take control of a Fiendfyre storm... just imagine that in battle!!


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## Shockley

I would just like to say that while I think the Lady would basically destroy this competition (and Dominator would even beat her), the best wizard is Rincewind. Easily, easily Rincewind. He wouldn't win by powers, but he'd win.


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## Sheilawisz

After reading the Wikipedia article about Rincewind it seems to me that he is a great character... however, Wizard vs Wizard is about magical battles and it's not the place for someone like him.

I have heard that some of the _Discworld_ characters are enormously over-powered for comedy reasons, so maybe one of them could defeat The Lady if all the others fail!!

After very little interest was shown for the Dumbledore vs Rand match, we can say that Dumbledore has won it with a surprising Transfiguration attack, so that's 1 for Dumbledore and 0 for Rand. Maybe even the most powerful and destructive characters can be defeated that way, because most of them do not have Transfiguration in their worlds...

I would like to see Quick Ben vs The Lady next, what do you think??


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## Shockley

I think it would be the perfect place, if only because it throws the competition completely on-end - some people win because they're overpowered, Rincewind could do it because he's hilariously underpowered.


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## Steerpike

Quick Ben would take out a lot of wizards from other settings, but I don't see him taking down the Lady. He's smart, and usually has an escape ready when he's in over his head, so he might well be able to get away from her and keep her from ending him, but I don't think he could take her down.


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## Sheilawisz

Steerpike, could you please provide a description of the Malazan world's Magic system and Quick Ben's magical capabilities??

I already know that the Lady can fly on a carpet, throw huge magical blasts and lay waste to continents, now... What about Quick Ben? I am curious to know more about the defensive talents of the Lady, and what would Quick Ben try to take her down or at least hold his own against her.

Any physical description of the Lady?


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