# Why vampires AND werewolves?



## 2WayParadox (Feb 13, 2015)

Neither of them are really my thing, like Indians and their shamanism (is it shamanism? Idk, I like Genghis Kahn's shamanism though, but I digress).

My real question is: does anybody know why the two of them are combined in so many stories? Is this just coincidence? Or is there some story behind it?


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## writeshiek33 (Feb 13, 2015)

I  don't know but if you think about it  they do  make great natural enemies


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## 2WayParadox (Feb 13, 2015)

Really? Vampires are dead and wolves are predators first, scavengers later. If you could explain why they make great natural enemies, I'd be glad to listen.


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## Jabrosky (Feb 13, 2015)

2WayParadox said:


> Really? Vampires are dead and wolves are predators first, scavengers later.


Wolves may have evolved the ability to kill their own food, but I doubt most wild carnivores will hesitate to seize an easy meal if the opportunity arises. Even the mighty _Tyrannosaurus rex _wouldn't have been exempt from this trend.

On the other hand, since vampires are technically _un_dead, they may not be so easy a meal anyway.

Not being into the whole Gothic Horror genre, I have no idea how the whole vampire/werewolf conflict became a trope. Maybe it was that _Van Helsing_ movie from 2004, which I actually kinda liked (though I last saw it years ago). Of course we all know which book-turned-movie franchise brought it to popular consciousness within the last two decades.

Speaking of horror and the undead, did you know zombies come from African mythologies? The word may be related to the Kikongo word _nzambi_, meaning god or spirit, and they started out as dead people resurrected and manipulated by magicians. However, I don't think they were necessarily brain-eating cannibals who would swarm all over the place after civilization collapsed.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Feb 13, 2015)

I was curious, but having no strong opinion on the topic, I did a "werewolf vs. vampire" search. All it took was one image, and now my mind is made up.








The werewolf-vampire rivalry is stupid.


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## Tom (Feb 13, 2015)

I think it might be because they're two of the most instantly recognizable mythological monsters in Western culture. Mythology-wise, they also originate from roughly the same area: Germany, Russia, and the smaller Germanic and Slavic countries. They've been intertwined from the beginning, and present pop culture has just reinforced their connection.


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## 2WayParadox (Feb 14, 2015)

I thought there would be some kind of famous book that's at the origin, or maybe a famous old story. But it's true that it might be because they're the two strongest creatures in a certain landscape, and the two strongest will inevitably clash.

You know what I would like to see more of? Necromancers. I read a short story about a necromancer, but it didn't get finished. There's such a possibility for spectacular magic there. And when I say necromancer, I mean as the MC.


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## Hainted (Feb 14, 2015)

They're two Apex Predators that share the same food source(us) so it's only natural they would clash.


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## Gryphos (Feb 14, 2015)

I think it all boils down to the fact that they're both 'creatures of the night'.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Feb 14, 2015)

@2Way, the necro MC is pretty cool.

About the werewolf-vamp rivalry, I think it makes sense because both are confined to the night. The werewolf changes at night. The vampire can't get out in the sun.

If the werewolf is confined to the night of the full moon, it seems like there would be an easy way to avoid confrontations. Maybe the vampire likes the full moon nights best because it's easiest to keep track of hours until sunrise.


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## 2WayParadox (Feb 14, 2015)

Hainted said:


> They're two Apex Predators that share the same food source(us) so it's only natural they would clash.



Really? I don't recall werewolves eating humans. I do recall them hurting humans because they have some kidn of aggressive bloodlust.


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## Devor (Feb 14, 2015)

2WayParadox said:


> I thought there would be some kind of famous book that's at the origin, or maybe a famous old story.



Truthfully, I don't remember it being much of a thing before Twilight.


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## Svrtnsse (Feb 14, 2015)

Devor said:


> Truthfully, I don't remember it being much of a thing before Twilight.



Didn't the Underworld movies come before that?
I also think the Werewolf/Vampire games from White Wolf may have had something to do with it.


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## wordwalker (Feb 14, 2015)

Laurell K. Hamilton, and her Anita Blake books.

_Underworld_ is another contributor that came out a little later, and White Wolf came a few years before both, so the idea was bound to happen. But I'd give a lot of the credit to Hamilton (and it is "credit," the ten or so books before she got kinky are good reads). She did a lot to codify what we think of as urban fantasy: action hero (usually heroine), modern setting, monsters left and right, human/superhuman soap opera and sex mixed with terror and death. Urban fantasy isn't the only place to use "fur vs fang," but it's such a powerhouse it's had a real influence on every other genre too.

Also... werewolves clashing with vampires always seemed inevitable, not for in-universe reasons, but for storytelling. A lot of the appeal of both monsters was always the brand names-- great concepts, but they have a real head start over a well-written gargoyle because they're just the best known beasties. So putting two mega-tropes into a new fusion trope was only (super)natural; look how many throwaway monster movies used to be made with the title of "Monster X vs Monster Y" (or "X-ized Y-Creature"). These days we're just taking the same thing more seriously.


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## Ireth (Feb 14, 2015)

2WayParadox said:


> You know what I would like to see more of? Necromancers. I read a short story about a necromancer, but it didn't get finished. There's such a possibility for spectacular magic there. And when I say necromancer, I mean as the MC.



I have a necromancer in one of my WIPs -- not the MC, but a major supporting character. The villains are also necromancers, so it makes for an interesting face-of when they fight in the climax.


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## Svrtnsse (Feb 14, 2015)

The contrast between werewolves and vampires is also quite nice.
One the one side you have the cool, elegant, vampires with their alluring secrets and powers - and of course their immortal suffering.
On the other side you have the raging, primal, savages. The werewolves are wild and free and strong.

Both of the above have their distinct appeals.


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## DaFlaminUnicorn (Feb 14, 2015)

2WayParadox said:


> Really? I don't recall werewolves eating humans. I do recall them hurting humans because they have some kidn of aggressive bloodlust.



Actually, according to some lore, the werewolves would eat the hearts of their victims.


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## Jabrosky (Feb 14, 2015)

DaFlaminUnicorn said:


> Actually, according to some lore, the werewolves would eat the hearts of their victims.


Aren't werewolves basically humans turning into wolves? Wolves, like other predatory mammals, would probably have no qualms about hunting humans for food if possible. Even more so if the humans didn't have boomsticks with them.

Speaking of werewolves, I always wondered how they would relate to wolves in the wild. Would a werewolf seek to join a wolf pack, and how would the wolves receive them? I imagine a werewolf who started life as a human might go through some culture shock in their struggle to assimilate into mainstream wolf society. It'd be worse than a Guatemalan Maya raised from the crib by affluent Euro-American parents and then trying to fit in with other Maya people back in Guatemala.


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## Penpilot (Feb 14, 2015)

Well, I think it maybe to do with Dracula and the Wolfman were part of the classic Universal Studios stable of monsters along with Frankenstein, The Creature from the Black Lagoon, etc.

These movies brought those creatures to great popularity in the early 20th century and entrenched them into western pop culture. The echoes of those movies are still felt. Many kids grew up watching those movies, including myself, and well, I'm sure there have been many a kid discussion of what would happen if Dracula met the Wolfman, etc. Kids grow into adults and adult writers, and when given the opportunity, live out some of their childhood dreams on the page. 

That's my theory any way.

On a side note, I hear that they're trying to reboot the Universal monster movies and do an Marvel Avengers type shared universe.


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## Svrtnsse (Feb 14, 2015)

Pirates vs Ninjas?


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## 2WayParadox (Feb 15, 2015)

DaFlaminUnicorn said:


> Actually, according to some lore, the werewolves would eat the hearts of their victims.



seems like a more ritualized thing than actual feeding patterns


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## Hainted (Feb 15, 2015)

2WayParadox -Folklore, not literature has Werewolves as predators who crave human flesh, and strangely enough turn into vampires after death.


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## 2WayParadox (Feb 15, 2015)

really? how weird


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## Ireth (Feb 15, 2015)

I was once part of an RPG that involved vampires and werewolves, as well as mages, other types of shapeshifters and normal humans. For the most part the vamps and wolves got along very well. There was one major conflict between members of their kinds, but that was only because the vampire in question was a primary antagonist who targeted a number of people including other vampires, and in the final confrontation he made the mistake of trying to kill a young human woman in front of her dad AND the dad's werewolf girlfriend. The results were not pretty.


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## X Equestris (Feb 18, 2015)

There was a relationship between the two in the Middle Ages.  If I'm remembering correctly, a werewolf that wasn't killed properly could turn into a vampire.


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## 2WayParadox (Feb 18, 2015)

I wonder how they cooked up that connection


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## Caged Maiden (Feb 18, 2015)

I only have werewolves in my novels.  I never considered writing vampires into my world at all, though I guess I would write one as a short story.  For me, it's about relatability.  I think vampires are trickier to me because I identify more with werewolves.  But for me, they're just shapeshifters.  Some are bad and monstrous as the disease eats them away and their humanity fades out.  For my character werewolves, they're just people who can shift forms and they hide for their own safety.


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## Kittie Brandybuck (Mar 6, 2021)

You all say that there were no stories that started this, but i have a theory. On Wikipedia, it says that before the Brothers Grimm write their version of Little red riding hood, the wolf could be a werewolf, a vampire or even an ogre. Maybe the conflict arise from little kids disagreeing on which version was the correct one. Also, some people say that if a werewolf is not buried it becomes a vampire.


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## Rosemary Tea (Mar 9, 2021)

Both wolf (or werewolf) and vampire are supernaturalized versions of the sexual predator. Little Red Ridinghood's wolf was never canis lupus. Her mother warning her not to get off the path and not to talk to strangers is out of fear of the very same kind of predator parents would be worried about today.

In the same eras when women got burned as witches, some men were burned as werewolves. Charges of being a werewolf were essentially the male version of witchcraft charges. But they weren't always as supernatural as you might think. At least a couple of werewolf cases were identical in every way, except the official explanation, to modern serial killer cases. These were serial killings with a sexual element, too. The werewolf/serial killer raped and murdered multiple victims. His explanation, which held up in court, was that he'd been possessed by the spirit of a wolf.

As for vampires, there's no vampire story anywhere, ever, that doesn't highly sexualize them. Whether they have a mesmerizing gaze, or sparkle in the sun, or what have you, they are extremely sexual in a dark way, and their attacks are always sexualized.


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## Almyrigan Hero (Jun 2, 2021)

I see it as almost a class rivalry of sorts.

The classic Dracula-esque vampire is, if not hygienic by human standards, usually portrayed as affluent and sophisticated. They're essentially the elites of the dark world, not merely cursed but also proficient in using magic themselves. Meanwhile, werewolves are generally wild, brutish, a bit unhinged even as humans, and completely berserk killing machines when transformed. Vampires would probably just sort of look down on them, and also wouldn't be above hunting, enslaving, or abusing them for their own amusement... you know, what with the whole 'evil' thing.

The real question is, could werewolves actually win? A vampire probably wouldn't find using a gun very difficult, even if we do go with the notion that touching the silver bullet directly would hurt them and necessitate more convoluted work-arounds for loading, but would a werewolf actually have the presence of mind to consider the importance of garlic and wooden stakes?


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