# What is up with this contradiction?



## Tom (Mar 12, 2015)

So, here’s something I’ve been thinking about lately that I’d like to hear your thoughts on. I’m going to present the general gist of the concept in script form, for humorous purposes. Any thoughts? Why is this discrepancy so common? 

BOOK: *realistic portrayal of pre-industrial civilization, including the impact of disease, warfare, poverty, poor food, and primitive medical practices*

ME, your friendly neighborhood Tom Nimenai: Nice, realism. I like this. *settles in*

BOOK: *group of people, including women, travels about the country for an odd few months*

ME: Wait, why hasn’t there been a mention of the women dealing with their menstrual cycles?

MALE AUTHOR: Menstruation? Ew! I can’t write about that!

BOOK: *menstruation ignored*

ME: *stares*

ME: So, let me get this straight. You can describe in loving detail a healer draining the pus from the festering stump of an amputated limb, but you can’t write about menstruation?

MALE AUTHOR: It’s gross!

ME: Roughly half the population of the planet deals with it every month. Sure, it’s uncomfortable, icky, and awkward to talk about, but for women it’s a fact of life. Don’t you think it’s at least worth a mention?

MALE AUTHOR: *throws up hands* Fine, just so the women are happy! Hey, it’s good for diversity!

BOOK: *menstruation given a throwaway mention*

ME: Um…there are 500 pages in this book. And only one 3-sentence paragraph devoted to one of the female party members dealing with her period.

MALE AUTHOR: But I mentioned it, didn’t I?

ME: …I got nothing. *shuts book*


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## Ireth (Mar 12, 2015)

That's a really good point. I'm working on a fanfic right now set in early First Age Middle-earth, with a female MC. Menstruation is definitely going to be an ever-present issue.


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## Nimue (Mar 12, 2015)

My rule of thumb is that if your book has people pissing, sh*tting, and/or, periods should be given the same treatment--none of that should be added for "shock value" hopefully, just mentioned where realistic.  

Also, with all that low-fantasy sex everyone is having, birth control! Ancient methods were varied and disgusting, so dig in!  If the POV is female and periods and BC don't get brought up ever, that's pretty unrealistic.  

This is kind of tangential, but uh, me and a bunch of female friends had a conversation a while back about how almost all of us really learned about sex and periods from _fiction_. Before we were supposed to know about them, of course.  

For me it was coming-of-age girl-oriented fantasy like Tamora Pierce's books, for others it was different genres.  

I wonder if a female author writing for that age range would feel almost a responsibility for that education?  Any imagined responsibility aside, I feel like this should be treated like any other aspect of life when writing--include as appropriate, don't pretend it doesn't exist.


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## Tom (Mar 12, 2015)

I'm not sure where I first learned about sex and periods, but I know I didn't really understand the full impact of menstruation on a woman's situation until I read this YA fantasy duo called Eon and Eona. The main character was a girl disguised as a boy, and the very first issue the reader saw her deal with was suffering through weapons practice with horrible cramps. The rest of the book, and its sequel, delve into a lot about periods and how ancient people dealt with them. It was very educational.


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## Ireth (Mar 12, 2015)

Well, my MC is asexual (she's a modern girl from Earth dropped into Middle-earth), and as such she never has sex, so birth control is not an issue.

For a bunch of good fantasy books that deal with periods, read Tamora Pierce's Tortall books. The MCs are all women, some of whom disguise as men to become knights. Menstruation and birth control are prominently featured as part of the plot.


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## Tom (Mar 12, 2015)

Yesssss, Tamora Pierce is excellent! I haven't read a lot of her work, but what I have seen is awesome at portraying female characters and their physical, mental, and emotional traits.


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## skip.knox (Mar 12, 2015)

Good example, Tom. But that was a case where menstruation was a plot point. It was relevant to the story. In most stories, it isn't. We don't need to know about Brigid O’Shaughnessy's menstrual cycle any more than we need to know about how Sam Spade learned to ride a bike. There are literally thousands of things that are "realistic" that don't need to go into the story.

I don't see it as a contradiction. We don't need to see Aragorn urinate to know he's human.


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## Tom (Mar 12, 2015)

My beef with it is, I see it glossed over in the wrong type of fantasy. This is the fantasy that is gritty, realistic, shows sex and pissing and crapping, and doesn't shy away from describing wounds, the ravages of disease, decaying corpses, and many other things you don't want to think about while eating. 

But there's no mention of menstruation. Or birth control. Or frankly_ anything_ about women's health, even if there are numerous female characters. 

It just doesn't make sense that menstruation is apparently too "icky" to mention in a book that seems to _enjoy_ making readers squirm.


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## Nimue (Mar 12, 2015)

Right, but I don't think high fantasy or noir are the genres we're talking about--this is more about low fantasy where urination and gruesome injuries are included in the narration, but periods aren't.  I wouldn't say that absolutely everyone needs to include that in their writing because they have a female POV, but if it fits with the tone you're going for, why isn't it there?


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## Russ (Mar 12, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> My beef with it is, I see it glossed over in the wrong type of fantasy. This is the fantasy that is gritty, realistic, shows sex and pissing and crapping, and doesn't shy away from describing wounds, the ravages of disease, decaying corpses, and many other things you don't want to think about while eating.
> 
> But there's no mention of menstruation. Or birth control. Or frankly_ anything_ about women's health, even if there are numerous female characters.
> 
> It just doesn't make sense that menstruation is apparently too "icky" to mention in a book that seems to _enjoy_ making readers squirm.



If the book seems to be focussed on all those bodily functions for some reason I think it only fair that menstruation should be part of the equation.  In fact in many cultures menstruation is a big deal, for good or ill.

Personally I know most characters need to relieve themselves and bath etc, but I am just not interested in reading about it.


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## 2WayParadox (Mar 12, 2015)

Yeah, I frankly don't really care about how my characters fulfill their bodily functions. A guard might go and have a piss in a bush, to set the scene of him being a guard. I have a female MC, and I've never thought about her menstrual cycle. She's got more important issues at hand. If I took menstrual cycle into account, that would just add another layer of complexity.

Also, unless menstruation has some plot salience, I wonder where you'd go with it? Generally comments concerning menstruation ar platitudes and insensitive one-liners. I don't really see the value in adding that, unless you're characterizing a boorish character.

So, while I might use a bodily function here and there, if it happens to pop up, I don't see the point in fussing about it.


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## Tom (Mar 12, 2015)

It's not an issue in most fantasy, but in low fantasy, which seems to harbor a certain glee in being as realistically "gritty" as possible, the glossing over of menstruation just doesn't make sense. I think it's just another instance of issues relating to women being swept aside as either too "irrelevant" or too "gross" to include.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 12, 2015)

The Red Tent is a serious thing.  Women in certain cultures would spend their cycle days among other women and separate from the village.  Being a woman, I have feelings and experience in this subject, so why don't I weigh in on what I do in my writing.  

In one story, my MC (a former prostitute) is raped in a dungeon and she escapes with the aid of another prisoner.  As the two travel together, the man has a hard time dealing with what he sees as a tragic pregnancy.  He confronts her about it one day, saying she should remain behind in a safe village while he completes their task.  She argues she isn't fragile, why should he leave her at home.  At that point, the man gets serious, saying she should acknowledge that she's with child and take it easy--or at the very least not get herself into a bloody scene.  She laughs, asking why he thinks such a ridiculous thing.  He replies that they've shared close quarters for almost eight weeks and she hasn't had her "woman time".  To which, she replies that he's a silly, thoughtful idiot.  She's been using herbs (yes they exist) that suppress her cycle (like all good ladies of the night do) and he has no reason to be concerned.

Now, nature has ways of dictating fertility.  Gymnasts, for example.  I'd say if you have a warrior woman who is more muscle than fat, who produces minor quantities of estrogen, she is probably infertile as long as she keeps up the rigorous training and lifestyle.  But for the majority of women between the ages of 18 and 35, in a historical context, they would probably be fertile.  Menarche (the onset of menstruation) was often later in the old days (nutrition being a factor) and menopause set on earlier.  But to completely leave it out...I don't agree.  

I think you can write herbs that suppress menstruation, simple comfortable items (that won't disgust readers) to make the process simple and not dramatic, or even show the outward signs like irritability and pain without showing the science.  But I agree that the absence of women's issues is a disservice to the story if the story is about female characters and their lives.

In another story, i have two characters jump into bed together in chapter two, as complete strangers.  But their brief and fiery love affair is not intended to last.  When he doesn't pull away quick enough, he asks her when her courses were and she replies, "What does it matter?  You don't owe me any obligations.  I'm not asking anything from you."  He responds rather sadly that she doesn't think much of his honor.  

I like the idea that women's issues are not meant solely for women to weigh, in that respect.  The man in my life is not the most astute observer of my anything, but he's been very tender and aware of my female-specific complications.  We have four kids and while that might seem a disappointing outcome for natural family planning, I can tell you the exact days we conceived the two kids we planned and the other two who kinda made their presence inevitable.  Whoopsy.

Many cultures practiced infanticide if they didn't have an abortion option available and many more used birth control.  Vinegar is a natural spermicide and a vinegar douche can be used regularly with no discomfort.  Also, strong herbs can be used for all sorts of things from delaying ovulation to causing miscarriage.  If your story deals with those kinds of real issues, the material is out there.  Maybe I just know more about herbs than the average person, but I use medicine in my books all the time and women need medicine as much as men, maybe more.

It's funny and off topic, but in my WiP i have a scene where two characters take a truth serum, testing it for use in part of their scheming.  The woman comments that her pulse is rapid and she feels more energized, but no more truthful than normal.  The man says he doesn't think that was the intended reaction.  She says, "Well if it fails as a truth serum, he might try marketing his concoction to the wealthy old ladies of the city, for waning passion.  There's money to be made in that sort of thing."

So there you go, there are herbs that give men a pick-me-up and women a little extra circulation to warm their passion.  I mean, look no further than your common pepper (the hot kind).  Niacin is in that regard sort of an aphrodesiac because anything that gets the blood speeding through the body and certain tissues that need higher blood flow, works to the benefit of lovers.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 12, 2015)

Meh, it would depend on what the story needs. Unless that kind of bathroom stuff needs to be thrown into the story, it's not something I would miss. And if there's one generalization about male writers I am comfortable stating, it's that they aren't going to have intimate firsthand experience with menstruation the way women will anyway, so writing it would be doubly awkward for them. At least both men and women can have their pus drained from injuries.


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## Russ (Mar 12, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> It's not an issue in most fantasy, but in low fantasy, which seems to harbor a certain glee in being as realistically "gritty" as possible, the glossing over of menstruation just doesn't make sense. I think it's just another instance of issues relating to women being swept aside as either too "irrelevant" or too "gross" to include.



I confess I am at least a decade behind in my fantasy reading.

Can you or others suggest some titles or authors so that I can see what this "low fantasy" looks like?


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## 2WayParadox (Mar 12, 2015)

game of thrones is a prime examplr


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## Tom (Mar 12, 2015)

I haven't been reading a lot of low fantasy at the moment--I tend to pick and choose titles, and read across genres a lot. One example I can think of off the top of my head is Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos series, which is written in a low fantasy style, but takes place in a high fantasy world. And Game of Thrones, of course.


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## Reilith (Mar 12, 2015)

As a female writer who used to write female MC only before I haven't really given much thought to this before, but I do remember being positively surprised when it was mentioned in a fantasy novel I was reading at the time. It was situational as the lady was pregnant though. Currently I am writing a male MC so I don't think his POV would really be suitable to point out periods as he has no way of actually confirming it (and before anyone mentions intercourse, he is a gay character). I may graze over it in the need arises if a female character gets a POV or if she gets pregnant or something similar.
As for importance of including it I don't find it to be exceptionally important, but it can be put in for more 'real life' value. All this depends on the type of fantasy you're writing. In my writing I don't tend to mention every bodily function the person experiences, only when it fits the context so I don't see the need to make menstruation more visible than the other stuff. If your writing on the other hand actually does have a lot of depiction of bodily functions (ASOIAF) then of course menstruation should not be excluded since it is real and as it was stated in the first post half of the world experiences it each month. And being a male writer is no excuse for avoiding it.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Mar 12, 2015)

I don't know if it's intentionally overlooked or just not thought of by other authors. I can't know their way of thinking unless they tell me. 

For my own writing, I wouldn't write about menstruation unless it was relevant to the plot or an _interesting_ detail which adds texture to plot or character.

In my opinion, menstruation is rather mundane, same as urination or defecation. Now, if one warrior is pissing on a prisoner, that may be different. There's something more to the act.

Without meaning behind the function, it's mundane.


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## Mindfire (Mar 12, 2015)

Nimue said:


> I wouldn't say that absolutely everyone needs to include that in their writing because they have a female POV, but if it fits with the tone you're going for, why isn't it there?



Three words: lack of awareness. Not only is menstruation foreign to us menfolk in a physical sense, it's also pretty foreign in a mental sense too. As in, the vast majority of us almost never spare it a first thought, much less a second. Other bodily functions, gruesome injury and death: these are things we have, if not firsthand experience, second-hand knowledge or mental conceptions of. These women's health issues you bring up are, to most of us, a black box of the most inscrutable variety. In fact, said black box is inscrutable to such a grand degree that, much like an infant who has not yet gained object permanence, we don't even think of these issues as existing unless they are brought up in conversation in our very presence. And then we completely forget about them as soon as they go away.

EDIT: If the writer is female however? Search me.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Mar 12, 2015)

Mindfire said:


> Three words: lack of awareness. Not only is menstruation foreign to us menfolk in a physical sense, it's also pretty foreign in a mental sense too. As in, the vast majority of us almost never spare it a first thought, much less a second.


That can change with the addition of a wife & daughters.


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## Mindfire (Mar 12, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> That can change with the addition of a wife & daughters.



Thanks to the psychological phenomenon of compartmentalization, that's not necessarily true.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Mar 12, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> That can change with the addition of a wife & daughters.


It does.

But I agree with Mindfire that, being a guy, I'm still clueless about women in many ways. (I did remember it's 10 years today since my wife and I kissed for the first time. I get brownie points for that, don't I? But by clueless I mean…) The feeling of carrying a child, for example, is something I could probably write decently. But I truly don't know the feeling of it, and unlike my wife, I didn't spend years wondering what it would be like to someday carry my own child.

All I know about menstruation now that I didn't know before is that I have to let my wife win the argument. But then, that's true every day of the month.


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## Tom (Mar 12, 2015)

I'm not asking male writers to cover women's health issues in detail--just to, you know, acknowledge them. If a female writer can describe sex from a man's point of view--something a cis woman at least wouldn't have experience with--then a male writer can describe the experience of menstruation. He can find female friends who can describe it for him, read about what it means to women, and just write it. 

I think it's less an issue of awareness and more an issue of not wanting to be aware of it.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Mar 12, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> It does.
> 
> But I agree with Mindfire that, being a guy, I'm still clueless about women in many ways. (I did remember it's 10 years today since my wife and I kissed for the first time. I get brownie points for that, don't I? But by clueless I mean...) The feeling of carrying a child, for example, is something I could probably write decently. But I truly don't know the feeling of it, and unlike my wife, I didn't spend years wondering what it would be like to someday carry my own child.
> 
> All I know about menstruation now that I didn't know before is that I have to let my wife win the argument. But then, that's true every day of the month.



I'll have to disagree...kind of.     

Yes, I can't know exactly what it's like to carry a child, menstruate, or breast feed. But, through the life experiences and overly-detailed conversations in the course of fatherhood (she told me I needed to know those details), I have a pretty good idea.    

I also don't know what it's like to be a CIA operative or a transgender person. However, with some research and a true desire to understand the experiences of others, I'm quite certain I could write those character types convincingly.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Mar 12, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> I think it's less an issue of awareness and more an issue of not wanting to be aware of it.


I'm not convinced of that.   

Again, I can't speak for other writers, but I wouldn't shy away from it _if_ it was a relevant detail to plot, story, or character.  

Just mentioning it for the mention alone feels like wasted words to me. In my opinion, every word written and every detail depicted should advance plot or character. If menstruation fulfills that requirement, great...include. If it doesn't, it's mundane.


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## Devor (Mar 12, 2015)

I don't think this way for most things, but for this one I kind of do:  Wouldn't including it just be a can of worms?  I've read a tiny handful of articles talking about menstruation, and in the comments the women are all over the place.  Everything from "If you say it's gross, you're saying I'm gross" to "it's gross, it makes me feel gross, and I need space."

If people are all over the place with their reactions to it, then I don't want to include it.  *I wouldn't have any control as an author of what my readers are feeling.*

Of course, there's still exceptions to everything.  Sansa's first period in ASOIAF, for instance.  But to mention it casually?  Maybe I'm wrong, but that strikes me as more trouble than it's worth.


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## Mindfire (Mar 12, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> I'm not asking male writers to cover women's health issues in detail--just to, you know, acknowledge them. If a female writer can describe sex from a man's point of view--something a cis woman at least wouldn't have experience with--then a male writer can describe the experience of menstruation. He can find female friends who can describe it for him, read about what it means to women, and just write it.
> 
> I think it's less an issue of awareness and more an issue of not wanting to be aware of it.



I think you missed the general thrust of my comment. It's not that male writers _can't_ do these things, but rather that it _never occurs to them to do so._

EDIT:The desire for awareness or lack thereof is largely irrelevant when it never occurs to you that there even is such a thing as a desire for awareness. It is literally, within the scope of your mind, a thing which does not exist. I point once again to my object permanence simile. For most men, these are not things that exist unless they themselves are confronted with them in some way. And then, after these things disappear from their personal experience, they are instantly forgotten. Not by any active or conscious exercise of will, just as a sort of psychological thing-that-happens.


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## Tom (Mar 12, 2015)

Devor said:


> Of course, there's still exceptions to everything.  Sansa's first period in ASOIAF, for instance.  But to mention it casually?  Maybe I'm wrong, but that strikes me as more trouble than it's worth.



Exactly. That's what I'm looking for. If menstruation is going to be in there, it needs to be a plot-worthy issue, not a casual mention. A girl's first period is an excellent example--it's both an opportunity for character growth, and for symbolism that could tie into the rest of the plot.


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## Mindfire (Mar 12, 2015)

Re-post because my edit was ninja'd:
Deleted my re-post and restored my edit above with grammar fixes and more clarity.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Mar 12, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I'll have to disagree...kind of.
> 
> Yes, I can't know exactly what it's like to carry a child, menstruate, or breast feed. But, through the life experiences and overly-detailed conversations in the course of fatherhood (she told me I needed to know those details), I have a pretty good idea.
> 
> I also don't know what it's like to be a CIA operative or a transgender person. However, with some research and a true desire to understand the experiences of others, I'm quite certain I could write those character types convincingly.


I guess where I was going with that is I'm recognizing my limitation… and yes, there were those conversations. Though now that you've mentioned it, I probably would be more likely to write the feeling of breast-feeding than a male bodily function as I've given it more thought. I tend to steer clear of bodily functions unless necessary.

In my Jobe story, Addison and Jobe have a month-long adventure. It is simply established that Addison and Jobe "go behind a bush." At some point in a month's time, Addison has her period. The reader doesn't need to know when, as I'm merely establishing that there are boundaries between the characters.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 12, 2015)

Okay, since we're still chatting about this, I want to include some other stuff I write too.  HA!  I think bodily functions tend to be of the "every day" variety in most books.  Anyone can write characters ducking out of sight to eliminate, and many even craft interesting scenes (someone kidnapped when they're taking their privacy, etc.)

Here's some fun stuff I like to mention, because I'm me, I keep it real, and life is fun to throw at characters.

In my story where my complete stranger characters jump into bed in chapter two, their journey takes them into a rather overgrown forest for a few days and the woman asks whether her guard might have a comb because she'd misplaced her brush.  He swipes a palm over his shorn head and says, "You'll be hard-pressed to find a comb in this group (indicating a dozen mercenaries, many of them bald)."  She asks hesitantly whether they keep their hair short to appear more frightening.  To which he laughs and says it's to keep away the pests.  The men live in a guild house and some share their beds with ladies of the night and dogs (the dogs as pets, so you don't think I'm really suggesting...anyways...).  She says that's disgusting, to think the men have such low standards.  He laughs and tells her to turn up her nose if she wishes, but to live in a mercenary guild house, one either develops a certain amount of fortitude against the itching or shaves clean as a babe, above and below.  
That was a really fun scene and though not pertinent to the story or plot, I enjoy small ways characters communicate and develop mutual understanding.  Why can't it be over something kinda gross, rather than being over fashion or family or work?  
I think sometimes characters actually have an easier time bonding if there's something kinda gross or unusual at the heart of an interaction.


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## Mindfire (Mar 12, 2015)

Well that certainly adds... character.


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## Tom (Mar 12, 2015)

Caged Maiden, I'd like to read that book. It sounds a lot more interesting than traditional high fantasy, where everyone's hair is described like it was washed and conditioned with Pantene.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Mar 13, 2015)

Mindfire said:


> Well that certainly adds... character.



Yes, exactly.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 13, 2015)

What an awesome compliment.  THANK YOU!

However, I don't think you want to read it quite yet.  It sits at 125k words and is a terrible bore I think.  It needs wanton machete work and maybe a swift kick in the pants (front and back).  But thank you, Tom, for your enthusiasm.  I'm flattered and would love an opportunity to thrust upon you this novel eight of my fantasy series at some point.  In fact, I'll PM you the query for it, just for fun.  All my writing is sort of like this.  I write fantasy/ romance hybrids that I describe as real, raw, and mostly awkward.


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## Tom (Mar 13, 2015)

I like realism in fantasy. I'm also sorta wierd--I enjoy reading the mundane aspects of life in fantasy worlds. You know, like how people dress, what they eat, customs they practice...I guess I'm just an anthropologist at heart.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 13, 2015)

I also enjoy the mundane aspects of life, I suppose.  Most of my characters are average Joes, really.  Even my werewolves and mages.  I suppose that's why I really struggle to write things like battles or big magic, or anything else that probably appears on the page of any epic anything.  My stories are not epic.  They're not grand, nor even serious.  My stories are sometimes emotional, occasionally funny, and probably rather low-brow for people who like to digest books like fine dining.  

That being said, it's exactly what I like to read, and i have a couple authors who blew my mind with this style and if I can affect readers half as positively, I'll be happy I caused some smiles and maybe one wry chuckle.


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## Tom (Mar 13, 2015)

I think you hit the nail on the head when it comes to my writing style. I just don't do...grandeur. Personal stories speak to me.


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## Mindfire (Mar 13, 2015)

Come to think of it, I really need to pay more attention to things like this. I've noticed that my storytelling style is very "Christopher Nolan", by which I mean that it tends to lean very heavily on high-minded ideas, worldbuilding, and wow moments while these little human details get overlooked. It's probably my greatest flaw as a writer. I even do the "characters stand around explaining the themes of the story" thing he does, though whether I do it more or less subtly is debatable.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 13, 2015)

I can't speak for what anyone should do, but I know what I like to do and I like to portray real things, in real ways, through real people.  I like to make my characters uncomfortable and embarrassed, through characters who like to be that awkward or really secure person.  I mean, in the scene I mentioned above, the mercenary isn't apologizing for anything, but he's being rather blunt and finds it humorous.  I mean, just the night before or whatever, this proper young woman practically threw herself on him and while he enjoyed their interlude, he also likes her.  One of his favorite parts of her is that he suspects she's rather a fraud in her role as a rich charge.  She showed him that when they were in the sack.  So it's a bit of fun for him, pressing her snob buttons, and over the course of his short game, he's kinda discovering her real traits.

Now that is certainly a larger theme to this story.  But the issue of lice wan't, you know, important.  It was simply the vehicle I chose at that moment.  I used a few more colorful and entertaining (to me) ones during their first intimate encounter, but for propriety's sake I felt mentioning them here might be a touch inappropriate.  (I know, right?  Look at the shit I talk about and then ask yourself what _I_ could find inappropriate)

Anyways, This feels like a good place to talk about vehicles (If anyone cares to hear what I'm saying.  I don't want to sound know-it-all-ish).  In a particular scene, say the one given above, I need to have a goal.  I can't merely have the mercenaries and MCs sitting around eating, shooting the breeze about nothing, right?  You know what, I'll make this a new thread, because I feel bad enough I hijacked this honest question to talk about all my oddities.  Tom, my apologies.  I'll begin a new thread.  Thanks for opening this very interesting (and strangely satisfying) can of worms.  

*trucks down to the thread machine and pops in her quarters.  "Let me see...."


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## Mythopoet (Mar 13, 2015)

Possibly, because depicting menstruation forces you do deal with the fact that it puts women at a huge disadvantage to men, as far as adventuring goes and that sort of thing isn't allowed anymore. But if the group contains multiple women and they are traveling for multiple months there's a high likelihood that the whole group is going to have to stall their journey every time one of the women gets her period. Menstruation isn't just gross, it's pretty debilitating. The pain can be very severe and the weakness that comes along with copious bleeding is not to be sneezed at. Logistically, it's just not good for a story narrative unless it's actually part of the plot and not just a bid for "realism". But then, I don't understand why anyone would want to read or write about these kinds of body functions just for the sake of realism anyway. Man, that's what I read to escape. (Especially when I have my period.)


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## Legendary Sidekick (Mar 14, 2015)

Mythopoet said:


> it's pretty debilitating.


At the risk of TMI, I can vouch for debilitating. My wife had actually been hospitalized due to loss of blood and loss of consciousness from menstruation. Once we were married this did not happen anymore, but she did lose a lot of blood from the first birth. I'm talking about a large pool of blood on the floor as if someone had been murdered.


So, I'm writing about Addison Lane whose name means "awesome warrior." I think she can attract a female audience that hopefully includes my daughters when they're older. I want to write straight up adventures for her, where yes, her gender is a part of who she is…

…but I feel like I could potentially ruin what I'm going for if I let the readers know her too intimately, reading about bodily functions that are (perceived as) unnecessary.


I'm not saying I WILL ruin it. But the fear I would is my disincentive. The fear of this reaction:


Mythopoet said:


> Man, that's what I read to escape. (Especially when I have my period.)


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## Jabrosky (Mar 14, 2015)

Mythopoet said:


> Possibly, because depicting menstruation forces you do deal with the fact that it puts women at a huge disadvantage to men, as far as adventuring goes and that sort of thing isn't allowed anymore. But if the group contains multiple women and they are traveling for multiple months there's a high likelihood that the whole group is going to have to stall their journey every time one of the women gets her period. Menstruation isn't just gross, it's pretty debilitating. The pain can be very severe and the weakness that comes along with copious bleeding is not to be sneezed at. Logistically, it's just not good for a story narrative unless it's actually part of the plot and not just a bid for "realism". But then, I don't understand why anyone would want to read or write about these kinds of body functions just for the sake of realism anyway. Man, that's what I read to escape. (Especially when I have my period.)


The good news I see is that this would only be a problem in a hyper-realistic fantasy setting, and it's my understanding that you in particular believe hyper-realism shouldn't be the only way to build a fantasy setting (and I agree with you there). I can easily see a herbalist making some kind of medicine that had the effect of suppressing menstruation, and they might not even need anything "supernatural" for the ingredients. Why, it wouldn't surprise me if, in our own world, more than one of the many thousands of plant species thriving in the tropical rainforests alone will someday yield just that effect.

But I agree with you that the OP question is a little odd, since menstruation is far from the only "gross" bodily behavior I haven't seen all that often in fiction. I would have thought it better suited to the other recent thread on gender, except that just got closed.


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## Mythopoet (Mar 14, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> At the risk of TMI, I can vouch for debilitating. My wife had actually been hospitalized due to loss of blood and loss of consciousness from menstruation. Once we were married this did not happen anymore, but she did lose a lot of blood from the first birth. I'm talking about a large pool of blood on the floor as if someone had been murdered.



Someone made a thread about realistically depicting menstruation in fantasy fiction. I'm not going to worry about TMI. 

I also had periods that were much worse before I got married and pregnant. When I was a teen I'd sometimes have periods that lasted 2 weeks or more of constant bleeding. I often had to go home from school due to period cramps that were so bad I couldn't walk. And it's not uncommon for young woman to have irregular periods. My experience was that mine only became regular after I had my first pregnancy. Periods are serious business, is what I'm saying. 



Jabrosky said:


> The good news I see is that this would only be a problem in a hyper-realistic fantasy setting, and it's my understanding that you in particular believe hyper-realism shouldn't be the only way to build a fantasy setting (and I agree with you there).



My understand is that the OP is talking about one of those hyper-realistic works. Which is why I'm saying if you really want to realistically portray menstruation, it's going to seriously disrupt your narrative at best.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 14, 2015)

You know, this whole conversation reminds me of a curious part in _The Neverending Story_.

There is a chapter, about half into the book if I remember correctly, when Bastian has already spent many hours hiding in the attic of his school. He wants to keep reading the book nonstop, but then he starts to feel the _urgent biological necessity_ that we all know very well.

What to do?

Bastian is forced to put the book down and sneak out of the attic, carefully reaching the school's restrooms and returning to his hiding place as quickly as he could. Then he starts to wonder why all of the glorious, legendary heroes of the Fantasy stories he loves are never bothered with those needs, and he finds it pretty curious and funny.

The point is, we do not need to describe when our characters do such things, or menstruate, or whatever.

It can be done if it serves a purpose in your story, but doing it just for the sake of realism is not a good idea in my opinion. My Joan of England trilogy is full of female characters, and yet the issue of menstruation never crossed my mind while I was writing it... Why? Well, it was simply not necessary to feature that into the story.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 14, 2015)

I would like to add to this conversation something that I consider important, at least from a biological aspect and also from a Storyteller's point of view.

In case that you wish to portray menstruation in your Fantasy stories, you need to consider that not all women suffer from highly painful and debilitating menstrual cycles. It's a rather awkward thing anyway and many of us would choose to not have it if that was possible, but the severe effects (the ones that would be noticeable in a story) are not the norm in this.

Also, you should not assume that menstrual cycles are a female thing.

Actually, menstruation is restricted almost entirely to Primate species. Most species outside of the Primate family do not present menstrual cycles, so not all females have to deal with it. This is important for Fantasy writers, because many of us have created non-human species that are real in our worlds.

In the case of my creations, Aylar females do not have menstrual cycles so there is no way that this could be described in my Aylar stories, even if I wanted to.


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## Mindfire (Mar 14, 2015)

Sorry to be nitpicky, but... primates are not a species. Whew. Okay. I think the twitching has stopped now.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 14, 2015)

Sheilawisz said:


> In case that you wish to portray menstruation in your Fantasy stories, you need to consider that not all women suffer from highly painful and debilitating menstrual cycles. It's a rather awkward thing anyway and many of us would choose to not have it if that was possible, but the severe effects (the ones that would be noticeable in a story) are not the norm in this.


It might be pertinent for me to point out that certain aspects of menstruation may be culturally influenced rather than biologically universal. I am referring specifically to the perception of premenstrual syndrome.



> In all the controversy over the new DSM-5, it was inevitable that a long-standing fight over premenstrual syndrome would be revived. Eighty-five percent of women claim to have suffered from this disorder, but *repeated research shows there's actually no relationship between daily moods and shifting monthly hormone levels.* The debate is nothing new. In her classic 1993 feminist text _The Mismeasure of Woman_, Carol Tavris argued that the idea of PMS persists because it gives women an excuse to express anger and irritation in a culture that expects them to be unendingly cheerful and pleasant. (It also panders to the belief that women are irrational victims of their own hormones.) Being able to blame your socially incorrect emotions on chemical shifts is intoxicating: Tavris showed that even when confronted with evidence that menstruation doesn't affect mood, "Many women are highly resistant to the evidence that their beliefs and expectations about PMS might be influencing their symptoms."
> 
> *But PMS is increasingly understood as a "culture-bound syndrome," a disease of societal expectations, not biological influences.* Psychologist Joan Chrisler spelled it out bluntly in 2002: "It's convenient for women to use this … . The discourse is me, not me, my real self, my PMS self. It allows you to hold onto a view of yourself as a good mother who doesn't lose her temper."


Mind you, relating emotional swings to menstruation isn't quite the same as the physical problem of "debilitating pain" brought up here, but I wonder if there's still a connection between the perceived intensity of pain and belief in PMS. Being in a bad state of mind doesn't exactly help you cope with physical ailing.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 14, 2015)

Yeah Mindfire, from a scientific point of view I should have said _Primate Order_ instead of Species or Family, but you know what I mean.

Female Aylars do not have menstrual cycles because they have a very different reproductive system, more similar to insects than to mammalian species. If you described human menstruation and human sexuality in general to them they would never believe it, and probably they would think that you are nuts for imagining such impossible things.

After all, we are Fantasy Storytellers and we can take some freedoms in our worlds.

I mean, we do not have to see Luna Lovegood saying: _"Harry, I cannot go with you and your friends in this adventure because I am feeling terrible today, you know why..."_ just like we do not need to see Harry pulling down his pants inside some Hogwarts restroom in order to... you know what.

I think that trying to be too realistic and detailed in Fantasy is wrong, but others might think differently and that's okay.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Mar 14, 2015)

Sheilawisz said:


> we do not need to see Harry pulling down his pants inside some Hogwarts restroom in order to... you know what.


But… but… if we don't see Harry doing that, then readers have no choice but to assume he's been holding it throughout all seven books, which span seven years.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 15, 2015)

Indeed Legendary, and that would be an awful long time for a character to be so badly constipated!

I have a good example of a successful story with loads of female characters, in which menstruation is never mentioned: I have not read the books yet, but I watched every episode of the TV series based on _The Worst Witch_.

The story describes a school for witches, a lonely castle situated on top of a mountain. All of the students are teenage girls, some of them young enough to be dealing with their first period, and yet this situation does not show up either casually or plot-wise in any of the forty episodes of the series.

I can understand if menstruation is featured in Gritty Fantasy stories that intentionally depict total realism, or if it serves some purpose in the plot... Personally I would not do it, but only because my stories are not like that.

My way of storytelling involves treating my characters as people, focusing on _who they are_ instead of what gender they belong to.


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## BronzeOracle (Mar 15, 2015)

Sheilawisz said:


> Yeah Mindfire, from a scientific point of view I should have said _Primate Order_ instead of Species or Family, but you know what I mean.



To be hyper nitpicky, what you said was perfectly correct!  _Actually, menstruation is restricted almost entirely to Primate species._   That can mean multiple species, not just one - even a whole Order.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Mar 15, 2015)

I watched Big Hero 6 with my daughters, and I loved it. That was aimed at a teen audience, and there was some mention of what teens go through. Example: the robot tells the boy he'll grow hair on his face, chest, armpits and--that's where the boy becomes very uncomfortable and interrupts. I think that's a good example of acknowledging puberty exists, and using it in the plot in a way that's appropriate for the intended audience.

And I hope my point of how this applies to us as writers is implicit because I'm typing on my wife's phone, and I have to one-finger-type, and my aim is bad. Black Dragon may be wondering about the "Legendary Sidelick," who tried logging in using my password moments ago.


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## Penpilot (Mar 15, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> But… but… if we don't see Harry doing that, then readers have no choice but to assume he's been holding it throughout all seven books, which span seven years.



So what you're saying is that we can all legitimately say that Harry Potter is full of S--t.


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## FarmerBrown (Mar 15, 2015)

I just read the whole thread! 

For me, part of making my characters real is giving them real problems. Migraines, anxiety, disabilities, irritable bowel, and yes, menstruation. For most women, it’s a problem, or at least an inconvenience. You don’t need to add real problems to characters to make them real, but for me it gives them another level of relatabilty, which can enhance the story in some cases. Real people also have migraines, anxiety, disabilities, IBS, and real women usually menstruate, though the severity of symptoms and blood loss varies. All those things can influence a character's personality and actions in ways that are understandable to the reader. But if that’s not the kind of storytelling the author is going for, then there’s no need to mention it just to make a point of mentioning it. Pretty sure most comments on this thread lean towards that. In the OP’s book, I think that’d be a great time to add another layer to the characters by describing the personal discomfort they feel while healing others. It would've been an excellent way to add contrast and depth (and I say this without knowing anything about the story but what was supplied), so the throwaway mention of menstruation is worse than not mentioning it at all. 

My issue with lumping menstruation in with other bodily functions is that it’s _not_ a daily event, it usually _does_ influence a woman/character’s demeanor and abilities, and while the logistics of the event are somewhat similar to urination and defecation (removing ‘unused’ material), the actual event is involuntary and women need to constantly monitor the situation to avoid a mess. They can’t go behind a bush to expel a uterine lining in one go. If there’s a female character between ages 10-50 in a book, there’s a good chance she’ll get her period during the story, and at the _very least_ it’s an opportunity to add a little complexity and realism to the tale.


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## Devor (Mar 15, 2015)

I have a question.  And don't get me wrong, I know it's fantasy, and you can do anything.  But a lot of the stories that shoot for "gritty" and "realistic" and leave out menstration also seem like the stories that might have people comment on menstruation if it was included, and very negatively at that, because that would be "gritty" and "realistic" for a setting like that.  I mean, in history, there was a huge stigma about a woman being "unclean."  If menstration was part of the story, it stands to reason people might talk about it.

Wouldn't that . . . bug you?


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## cupiscent (Mar 15, 2015)

Makes it a more interesting story point, frankly. The woman in the party can't let anyone else find out that she's menstruating because they'll all be complete dills about it. Sounds familiar. But women have - and have always had - ways of managing their business such that it doesn't get in the way and isn't actually noticeable (note that the first historical "calendars" measured 28-day cycles). After all, work doesn't stop for four-to-seven days a month. It's just one more thing we have to deal with - so a story of a woman that's including other gritty details but not that one... yeah, it rings a little hollow.


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## Clinton Seeber (Mar 16, 2015)

Ireth said:


> That's a really good point. I'm working on a fanfic right now set in early First Age Middle-earth, with a female MC. Menstruation is definitely going to be an ever-present issue.



 You're trying to write a story set in JRR Tolkien's world? How could you possibly do justice to anything Tolkien? To me, this borderlines on blasphemy. I can imagine you pulling that off well about as much as I can imagine Tolkien writing about "menstruation".


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## T.Allen.Smith (Mar 16, 2015)

Clinton Seeber said:


> I have just discovered the lowest brow thread that I have ever seen in my life. I can't believe anyone is taking this seriously.


Members of Mythic Scribes are free to discuss any aspect of their writing as long as the discussion falls within parameters of the site guidelines.

One of those guidelines is to exhibit mutual respect for other members. That requires posting and discussion free from judgment, offense, or attack.

Please keep this in mind.

You can find the site guidelines here:
http://mythicscribes.com/forums/news-and-announcements/9-forum-guidelines.html


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## Clinton Seeber (Mar 16, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Members of Mythic Scribes are free to discuss any aspect of their writing as long as the discussion falls within parameters of the site guidelines.
> 
> One of those guidelines is to exhibit mutual respect for other members. That requires posting and discussion free from judgment, offense, or attack.
> 
> ...



 Wouldn't be the first forum to excommunicate me, and it won't be the last either.


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## Penpilot (Mar 16, 2015)

Clinton Seeber said:


> You're trying to write a story set in JRR Tolkien's world? How could you possibly do justice to anything Tolkien? To me, this borderlines on blasphemy. I can imagine you pulling that off well about as much as I can imagine Tolkien writing about "menstruation".



One thing I'm most certain about in writing is never say never. It can't be done until someone does it. Something I've learned hanging out on this site is there are a lot of talented an intelligent people here. With those two things and with a lot of determination, who knows what any of them are capable of given time.

Also just because you can't imagine something happening doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. I used to imagine Einstein always being serious, but then I saw this picture, and read about him being a womaniser.








It made me realize there are many aspects to a person I don't see and don't imagine because I have a limited view point and incomplete knowledge.


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## Mythopoet (Mar 16, 2015)

Clinton Seeber said:


> You're trying to write a story set in JRR Tolkien's world? How could you possibly do justice to anything Tolkien? To me, this borderlines on blasphemy. I can imagine you pulling that off well about as much as I can imagine Tolkien writing about "menstruation".



Lots of people write Middle-earth fanfiction. Some of it is laughable. (Seriously, if you need a laugh, read that link. You can thank me later.) But some is pretty good too. No, it'll never be Tolkien, but it's still fun to read and write. I've written some Middle-earth fanfiction myself. It's not blasphemy. It's a tribute to how compelling Tolkien's work is that others feel motivated to be a part of his world.

But I do have to admit reading about menstruation in Middle-earth... That kinda turns me off.


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## Nimue (Mar 16, 2015)

Oh come on, there's the perfect opportunity!

_"A red sun rises... Blood has been spilled this night."_

_"Sorry Legolas, that was me.  I'll get that stain out of the blanket, I swear."_


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## Mythopoet (Mar 16, 2015)

Nimue said:


> Oh come on, there's the perfect opportunity!
> 
> _"A red sun rises... Blood has been spilled this night."_
> 
> _"Sorry Legolas, that was me.  I'll get that stain out of the blanket, I swear."_



Oh my god, the visual... I can never forgive you now.


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## Nimue (Mar 16, 2015)

_Muahahahaha!_


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## Ireth (Mar 16, 2015)

*cracks up laughing*

Seriously though... it's not like I'm going to go into extensive bloody detail every single time it happens. Or even the first time. A mention of the MC waking up with cramps, realizing what's to come and having to improvise a sort of pad (possibly moss wrapped up in cloth), and drinking willow-bark tea, and that'll be about it. From then on I'll just briefly mention it with a euphemism, like "moss-gathering" or "watering the moss", which the reader and the MC's peers will understand.


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## Mindfire (Mar 16, 2015)

Why am I never around when the trolls show up? I miss all the fun. Lol.


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## Mindfire (Mar 16, 2015)

Ireth said:


> *cracks up laughing*
> 
> Seriously though... it's not like I'm going to go into extensive _bloody detail _every single time it happens.



I see what you did there. >_>


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## Clinton Seeber (Mar 19, 2015)

Ireth said:


> *cracks up laughing*
> 
> Seriously though... it's not like I'm going to go into extensive bloody detail every single time it happens. Or even the first time. A mention of the MC waking up with cramps, realizing what's to come and having to improvise a sort of pad (possibly moss wrapped up in cloth), and drinking willow-bark tea, and that'll be about it. From then on I'll just briefly mention it with a euphemism, like "moss-gathering" or "watering the moss", which the reader and the MC's peers will understand.



 It actually doesn't sound that bad when you put it that way. I thought you were planning on going into great detail and making it a dominant story theme.


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## Clinton Seeber (Mar 19, 2015)

Mythopoet said:


> Lots of people write Middle-earth fanfiction. Some of it is laughable. (Seriously, if you need a laugh, read that link. You can thank me later.) But some is pretty good too. No, it'll never be Tolkien, but it's still fun to read and write. I've written some Middle-earth fanfiction myself. It's not blasphemy. It's a tribute to how compelling Tolkien's work is that others feel motivated to be a part of his world.
> 
> But I do have to admit reading about menstruation in Middle-earth... That kinda turns me off.



 Personally, I won't even touch Hobbits or Halflings in my stories. I consider them so throughly Tolkien that I don't think I can do them justice. I would not dare write about them.


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## Ireth (Mar 19, 2015)

Clinton Seeber said:


> It actually doesn't sound that bad when you put it that way. I thought you were planning on going into great detail and making it a dominant story theme.



Nope, there's no need to go into too much detail about it. It's definitely not the story of my MC's first period / blossoming into a woman or anything -- she's 25, so that time is well past.  I'm just trying to avert the "No Periods, Period" trope.


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## Clinton Seeber (Mar 19, 2015)

Ireth said:


> Nope, there's no need to go into too much detail about it. It's definitely not the story of my MC's first period / blossoming into a woman or anything -- she's 25, so that time is well past.  I'm just trying to avert the "No Periods, Period" trope.



 Yeah, I apologize for what I posted toward you. I shouldn't have jumped to a conclusion like that. I just get queasy at the idea of excrement scenes like some folks were talking about.


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## Clinton Seeber (Mar 19, 2015)

Mindfire said:


> Why am I never around when the trolls show up? I miss all the fun. Lol.



 Wait until the Orcs show up, my friend. Things will get exciting then I promise you. Especially when you are a dwarf like me and they rile your blood.( I'm 5'3"! LOL!)


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## Ireth (Mar 19, 2015)

Clinton Seeber said:


> Yeah, I apologize for what I posted toward you. I shouldn't have jump to a conclusion like that. I just get queasy at the idea of excrement scenes like some folks were talking about.



Apology accepted.


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## Mindfire (Mar 19, 2015)

Clinton Seeber said:


> DELETED BY LS.


Einstein? Overrated? I... I need to sit down. Also, that sounds almost antisemitic dude.


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## Nimue (Mar 19, 2015)

Deleted by T.Allen.Smith


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## DaFlaminUnicorn (Mar 19, 2015)

> MALE AUTHOR: Menstruation? Ew! I can’t write about that!




This reminds me of a conversation I had in class the other day. So there's this ornery kid who's always saying random crap because he thinks it's funny. One day he says something about sticking a tampon up somebody's nose for fun. I think that's gross because why would you stick that up your nose? but anyway, so my teacher starts to say why that would be a bad idea and this guy in my class says, "Eww. Can we please just stop talking about tampons?" And my teacher was like, "Why are you afraid of them? They're just cotton on a string. Are you afraid of a cottonball?"
"No."
"What about the cotton in the top of a medicine bottle?"
"No."
"Well then why should you be afraid of a tampon? All they are is a piece of cotton on string."
"It's because they are used for....you know." then my teacher and all of the girls in my class are like glaring at him. (if looks could kill...) And my teacher is like "That's not all they're used for. They can be used for many things. If you're in a pinch they can be used for fires and you can use them for first aid to stop a nosebleed and lots of other things."
All guys in my class except for one: "Let's stop talking about this."
After that there was a lot of nonsensical ways to use them but It just irritates me how a lot of guys are grossed out by that. I mean yeah it's gross but it's life. GET OVER IT. We (females) aren't afraid or grossed out by male genitalia. (At least the ones I know aren't)
It also irritates me how almost every guy I have met at my school talks about their genitals and the female mammary glands a lot but they won't even mention the menstruation, unless of course a girl gets angry with them for some reason and then it's "Are you on your period?" That really irritates me. Sorry for ranting. I just needed to get that out. Also it kind of pertains to the first post on this thread.


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## Nimue (Mar 19, 2015)

Deleted by T.Allen.Smith


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## Mindfire (Mar 19, 2015)

*Joins the side-eye*


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## Ireth (Mar 19, 2015)

*participates with a *


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## Legendary Sidekick (Mar 19, 2015)

I had to look the term up, but labeling Einstein is totally unnecessary. Let's get back to the topic.

And yes, I'm a guy, and I'm perfectly comfortable with the topic of menstruation. This Einstein thing, on the other hand… I don't want to hear any more on that. Period.


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## Ireth (Mar 19, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Period.



I see what you did there.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Mar 19, 2015)

Did what? Question mark?

(Whistles innocently… Ellipsis…)


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## Nimue (Mar 19, 2015)

Ellipsis is when you think it's done, but wait.... there's more!  Oh, uterus, you're so funny.


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## Mythopoet (Mar 19, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> And yes, I'm a guy, and I'm perfectly comfortable with the topic of menstruation.



All right, the time has come. This must be linked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppuMaQ4hZE4

Also, come on. It's no fun when the man is comfortable with the topic of menstruation. I talk about my period with my husband intentionally to make him uncomfortable. It's one of the things that makes me feel better.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Mar 19, 2015)

I teach at an urban high school. I'm unfazed by most topics.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 19, 2015)

Deleted by T.Allen.Smith


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## Legendary Sidekick (Mar 19, 2015)

Well, he can stay on [DELETED NAME OF SITE], but he won't be back here.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Mar 19, 2015)

Scribes,  

You should all be commended for handling the obvious attempts at baiting and trolling with dignity.  

The Mod staff has decided it's in the best interest of the community to delete all presence of that person's vitriol. They are banned. No sense in allowing him a lingering presence.   

As such, some of your posts have been deleted to fully eradicate that presence from our community.  

Thank you.  

TAS


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## Nimue (Mar 19, 2015)

That gets my vote for the least surprising thing I've learned all week!



I'm not sure if this is off-topic (is anything off-topic in this thread, I wonder?) but I'd like to bring in a different example of how using the body can humanize a character.

I was reading _The Hallowed Hunt_ by Lois McMaster-Bujold (highly recommend that you read all her stuff, right now) and there was a scene where the main character experiences a supernatural struggle between the wolf-spirit trapped in his body and a curse that was binding him.  There was a lot of exquisite magical and physical description, but a detail that stuck with me is that later, recovering, he hopes that the woman he's in love with didn't notice his painful physical arousal during the struggle.  The use of this small, non-graphic mention did so many things: it showed the extremity of his passion and bloodlust when the wolf took over, it used the symbolism of a lapse of control or involuntary possession, it helped illustrate a heightened awareness of his love interest, and it made him seem like a real human with real worries.  The book didn't have sex scenes, and that detail wasn't framed as erotic, just matter-of-fact.  It just seemed so realistic to me--even the sexual functions of the body aren't necessarily sexy.  They can be confused by stress or excitement; they can just be inconvenient.

Hope this doesn't set us down an even more inappropriate road, but I thought it'd be good to have a mention about the same sort of issue from the other direction, gender-wise.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 19, 2015)

I totally get you.  I respond to the same sorts of things.  On many levels.  I wrote a scene with a surprisingly similar situation, where my characters are caught asleep in a forest and one of them (unbeknownst to his comrades) is a werewolf.  Anyways, wolf spirits attack and are trying to kill him, but they cannot harm him physically, but what they do accomplish is a sort of psychic attack on the priestess and for lack of a better word, paladin, of the group.  The characters run and get free of the spirits attacking them, but both the spiritually aware characters are a bit unsettled.  The other, who is a little gruffer and not particularly afraid of spirits decides to go back in the light of dawn to retrieve the essentials they left behind.  Anyways, while the paladin is all sorts of distraught about what happened, the priestess is excited they've found a huge sage plant along a trail, because she can brush her teeth (a trick I learned.  Sage has antiseptic properties and you can just brush your teeth with the fresh leaves because they're fuzzy).  Anyways, the POV character is sort of at a loss as he collects himself.  THeir mysterious new ally walked off after a spirit wolf tried to kill them all, and his priestess acquaintance isn't concerned for their imminent safety, but having fresh breath.  

Yeah, it's hard to describe a scene in a few sentences, but along with you know, menstruation, lice, arousal, etc. you can throw in the mix oral hygiene.  It was a small mention but since I've brushed my teeth with sage leaves and it's actually really refreshing and a neat experience, I wanted it in a story.  Why not throw it in there somewhere where it will make an impact?  It seemed like something he'd notice and feel was important, rather than just throwing it in at random somewhere it got lost in basic camp life.  

I think for me, the small details have the most impact if they're entered at points where they actually subvert attention to a main event.  For example if you had a character in the party sort of out of sorts but not in an attention-grabbing way.  Then she sort of refuses to take part in something like the rest of the party.  When confronted about her lacking enthusiasm, she could respond with a sort of, "I'm just in need of a little space and privacy.  I'm a woman and you're not.  Get off my back."  And I can just imagine a male party leader responding.  Sort of a, "Oh....I see....uh...sorry i bothered you."  Or not.  Just saying.  That's probably just in my head because later in the story i mentioned above, the party sort of have a conflict.  The MC's sisters join him on the road and the older sister is slowly degrading.  Her mood becomes sullen.  She's short and snippy and unpleasant.  Her real reason is because she is troubled because of health issues with another member of the party, but when two of the young men in the party sort of push everyone's buttons with a friendly competition over everything they can talk about, the tension snaps.  The younger sister stands up and tells them to drop their pants and settle it once and for all, because she and everyone else is tired of hearing who knows more about hallucinogenic moths, who swims fastest, etc.  

I have considered whether (because there are three women traveling in that group, for more than a couple months) I should open up about female issues a touch in that case, but I typically don't.  If menstruation is mentioned (in the two instances I've written it) it typically relates to men noticing it's absent, not that it occurs.  I guess there's no reason I should shy away from the subject, but it just never felt like something I wanted to make a big deal of.  I mean, in my life, it's a relatively quiet thing.  And being 34 and having four kids, there were like eight years where I only had like 10 cycles.  HA!  In history, women didn't really have to deal with it like we do now.  One in three women who crossed the plains as pioneers was pregnant.  Childbearing years were shorter than they are now and so many infants died, miscarriages occurred, and lets not forget that nursing an infant can keep you infertile for two years (not typical with the modern diet).  I went 6-8 months without a cycle while nursing my kids.  If I hadn't introduced food when they begged for it, who knows.  

BTW, since we're talking lady issues, menopause is another I haven't really written but have thought about.  In my WiP one of my characters is 43 and I figured she's already past her childbearing years.  I know in history menopause set on earlier, so I'm okay with that.  Writers typically create younger characters, but part of her personality is a feeling that she's past her prime.  Anyways, menopause serves a natural function.  By experiencing the hormonal shifts later in life, women actually extend their years.  I know it sounds weird, but I watched a program on it and read some books that say that it helped humans to maintain their family groups, to have matriarchs in our past.  Women tended to hold families together and a child had a much higher chance of surviving if it had a mother and grandmother alive.  I thought that was interesting.  

Alright, so there's my thoughts on female issues today.  I love this thread for some reason.


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## Tom (Mar 20, 2015)

God, what happened to my thread? I haven't checked up on it in a few days, and I now I see the remnants of a great and bloody battle...maybe I ought to try and stay in the loop from now on.

I just wanted to add that I agree with DaFlaminUnicorn's post from a while back--it really bugs me that when girls get mad, they're always asked if they have PMS/are on their period. Men get angry all the time, but women aren't allowed to unless influenced by their hormones? And it's considered_ irrational_ anger as well--even if the woman is angry over a serious thing!

Guys, I have sort of a confession. I'm non-binary, meaning I consider myself neither fully male nor fully female, but biologically I'm female. This may come as a shock to some of you, since I know I come across as masculine. And that's really how I am--I'm very masculine both physically and mentally. 

So, you guys might also have noticed that I'm kind of a snarly person. I'm sarcastic, quick-tempered, and sometimes downright volatile. Even though I dress and act in a very masculine manner, I'm constantly asked if I'm on my period because of my temperament. _It annoys me to no end._ 

What I've noticed is that when someone isn't sure about my gender or thinks I am male, they treat my anger as if it is reasonable, rational, and justified. When someone knows I'm female, they're more likely to say that I'm overreacting, that I'm not being rational, etc. Coincidence? Of course not.

So there's my ranting for the day. And don't you guys dare treat me differently now that you know about me. If you've been referring to me using male pronouns, keep it up. If your picture of me in your head is male, I don't mind. Gender is not an issue for me.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Mar 20, 2015)

Thanks for sharing. You have a unique perspective on the world, Tom. 

That is one of the great values of this community. We can share experiences and points of view, without concern for judgment. As writers alone, that is an extremely valuable asset. After all, what is writing and reading other than living the lives of others and sharing experiences?

Personally, I'm usually in the dark when it comes to menstruation. I couldn't tell you what my wife's cycle is. I just find out when it happens, even though it's a monthly occurrence. Silly, huh?

Anyway, point being, I don't blame any mood swings or temperament changes I see in her on menstruation, because I don't think about it much. I only link mood to her period if she tells me she's PMSing and has noticed it herself.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 20, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> What I've noticed is that when someone isn't sure about my gender or thinks I am male, they treat my anger as if it is reasonable, rational, and justified. When someone knows I'm female, they're more likely to say that I'm overreacting, that I'm not being rational, etc. Coincidence? Of course not.


I don't disagree with you that too many people hold men and women to double standards when it comes to perceiving anger or rationality. But for my own part, I would say the rationality or "reasonableness" of anyone's anger depends on what they're getting angry over and whether I sympathize with them. If a guy gets angry over stupid stuff, he's no more rational than a woman who gets angry over the same stupid stuff. A moron is a moron regardless of their reproductive plumping.

I will admit that certain opinions you've voiced recently have come into conflict with my own, and I'd be lying if I said I never felt irritated with you. But during all those instances, I can honestly say I still imagined you as a cis-gendered man, not a biological woman with non-binary psychology. Now if I were to dismiss anything you said just because I thought you had a certain sex or gender identity, regardless of your opinion's validity, that _would_ be a sexist _ad hominem_.


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## Penpilot (Mar 20, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> God, what happened to my thread?



Yeah, I don't think God had anything to do with this. If anything it came from a much lower and warmer place. 



Tom Nimenai said:


> I just wanted to add that I agree with DaFlaminUnicorn's post from a while back--it really bugs me that when girls get mad, they're always asked if they have PMS/are on their period.



It may be different depending on what part of the world you're at, but around here guys get asked that too when they get mad. It's quite common for me to hear someone say to a guy, "Dude, stop PMSing." It seems to have evolved, at least temporarily where I'm at, into a phrase that isn't always to be taken literally, like when someone uses the word "couple" in reference to greater than two things.

I'm not saying it's necessarily OK to say this to a woman, especially when it's meant literally, and you don't know them, but there are things that are said to men that are in the same ball park that don't have an analogue for a woman. For example, when a woman holds her fingers close together in reference to a guy having a a small pee-pee. I've seen that being used in all variety of situations including a reference to an angry man. He's just angry because he's got a small pee-pee.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Mar 20, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> So there's my ranting for the day. And don't you guys dare treat me differently now that you know about me. If you've been referring to me using male pronouns, keep it up. If your picture of me in your head is male, I don't mind. Gender is not an issue for me.


I always thought you looked like Harry Potter accidentally lighting his chest hair on fire.

Thanks for sharing. This came as a pleasant surprise. I won't use "he" but I'll still call you Tom. And yes, you're still the same Tom to me.


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## Nimue (Mar 20, 2015)

O Lord, Tom, if you're snarly, what does that make me?  ...Nobody answer that.

But thank you for sharing with us! I've met a couple of nonbinary folks on other forums, and I always think it's awesome how the internet is such a flexible place for self-expression.  We see each other as we present ourselves, without preconceptions.  ...Well, the nice parts of the internet, anyway.  The not-nice parts aren't good for much of anything.

Regarding PMS, I think it's important to recognize that even if someone's feelings are being amplified by hormonal changes, they still feel very real--I mean, they are real, because emotions are completely subjective. Minimizing someone's feelings doesn't change the pain or anger they're going through.  And the tipping point for those feelings may be an entirely valid issue, even if tears and shouting aren't the usual way she brings it up.

I generally don't notice mood problems during my cycle, although I do have bad months where the full moon transforms me into a ball of sadness and self-loathing.  Incidentally how I spent my teens.  Which is a (possibly) good point for any men trying to imagine what this feels like--remember your teenage years and how everything felt so disastrous and important? Hormonal changes are not your friend, up to and including acne breakouts. It's not really that dramatic for me, but it varies from person to person.  I thank the powers that be that I don't have PMDD or endometriosis.


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## Panda (Mar 20, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> I always thought you looked like Harry Potter accidentally lighting his chest hair on fire.



Anyone else just lose the ability to look at Tom's avatar without seeing Harry Potter accidentally lighting his chest hair on fire? What has been seen cannot be unseen...


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## Legendary Sidekick (Mar 20, 2015)

Panda said:


> Harry Potter accidentally lighting his chest hair on fire


He was probably distracted by Herimone PMS'ing.

(runs away)


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## BronzeOracle (Mar 21, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> So, you guys might also have noticed that I'm kind of a snarly person. I'm sarcastic, quick-tempered, and sometimes downright volatile.



Snarly and quick tempered??  Is this the same Tom in whose posts I read such humour and friendship??  Thanks for your honesty and you're the same Tom to me.


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