# Book and Chapter Length Help?



## Mindfire (Nov 8, 2012)

So, right now, my chapters are about 1300-1400 words _on average_. My longest chapter so far is 2700 words and my shortest is around 900. So far I'm seven chapters in with a projected length of 35 chapters, though it will likely be longer because I plan to insert some chapters that weren't in my original outline. Disregarding those, with my 1400 word average, projected first draft length is around 49,000 words. With the new chapters, it might get to 56,000. _Maybe_.

Is that too short? Are my chapters too short? I get this feeling like I'm doing something wrong because it ought to be longer. (Isn't 90,000 words the average for a fantasy novel?) My writing style does tend to be pretty straightforward. Maybe I'm not embellishing enough or giving too few details.  Thoughts?


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## MadMadys (Nov 8, 2012)

I say it sounds like enough but it really depends on what you do with those 56K words.  I mean, Part 1 of my novel (of 6 parts total) is a definitely too long 97,000.

You should never feel like you have to make a story longer just because you think it should be.  Anything you add will likely just be empty filler that takes up nothing more than space and a higher word count.  Word count has nothing to do with the quality of a story (see: Hemingway) because if the story is good with what you have than why lengthen it?

My advice would be don't worry about word count in the least.  At least when it comes to the story being too short.  Too long on the other hand... ug.


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## Corysaurus (Nov 8, 2012)

I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't have them that short. Mine are usually between 2000-4000 words. Long enough to feel like the reader has gotten over a bump in the story, and not too short. I sort of base this on the way I have felt when reading fiction, and when I pass through chapters. You might have different feelings, so just go with what you're comfortable with. Chapter lengths are a bit arbitrary.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Nov 9, 2012)

Although I agree that it depends on your story, if it were me I'd feel like I'm missing some opportunities for greater story depth if my chapters were that short. I'm guessing that my chapters average around 5k with the shortest being about 2500 and the longest 8k.

Lengths in the 50k range are usually considered novellas (I think). 

My advice would be to continue as you are until you complete the first draft. Then, when you start the revision process, make the first path a with focus on story development & content. Look for places to add description of setting, or where a new character may add another twist or subplot. Only add these sorts of details if they add to the overall story but there are bound to be instances where additional material will add texture and realism to your tale.

In my writing, my first revision always focuses on setting description. I do this because I know I tend to employ minimalist description on setting (typically). On the second pass, I look for ways to enhance characterization and really differentiate one character from another (through things like habits or dialogue... Things they say... The way they speak, etc.). Third is a content edit which for me usually involves more cutting than addition. During all 3 edits, I'm looking at grammar, clarity, technique, pacing, and ways to write better.

Hope that helps....


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## wordwalker (Nov 9, 2012)

Talking to various agents, I've heard that the book standards for fantasy are:

100,000 - 115,000 is an excellent range.  (Keeping it to say 105K shows that you can whittle your work down.) Outside of that, I would say 90K-100K is most likely all right, and 115-124K is probably all right, too. That said, try to keep it in the ideal range.
      Below 70,000:           Too short 
      70,000 - 79,999:       Might be too short; probably all right 
      80,000 - 89,999:       Totally cool 
      90,000 - 99,999:       Generally safe 
      100,000 - 109,999:    Might be too long for other genres; probably all right 

For chapters... one figure I've heard is that readers average reading 7500-15,000 words in a sitting. I think that means anything that length or shorter is good for a chapter; I've read styles that had 2000, 1000, even 500-word chapters, and they were great for moving separate events along fast or even showing that a long scene might go 20,000 and you just don't know until you see the chapter it actually does end in. (But I still think my own 5000-worders are good portions to get a reader into a second or third helping.)


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## Penpilot (Nov 9, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> My writing style does tend to be pretty straightforward. Maybe I'm not embellishing enough or giving too few details.  Thoughts?



I agree with T.A.S. Finish it, then figure out if things are too short. I aim for around 2500 words per chapter. Although I do have chapters that are as short as 1000 words and as long as 4000 words. Any longer and I look to see if I can split it. 

As for your writing being sparse, I tend to write sparse in the first drafts too. My second draft is where I bloat things up. I explore each scene, asking myself what's this scene getting at? Where's the emotional resonance and what does it all mean to the overall story? Once I figure that out usually the scene grows anywhere from a few words to possibly doubling in length. Doing this also reveals where I need to adds scenes. The third draft is where I trim and refine. Usually the word count stays roughly static here. Anything I take out usually gets replaced with stuff that's more meaningful.


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## ThinkerX (Nov 9, 2012)

Some of the sites I was looking at on 'Duotrope' put novella's at about 15,000 - 40,000 words, with anything over that being considered a novel.

A few decades ago, there were a lot of short novels - 150 pages give or take.  I suspect it had to do with painfully typing up each draft on paper.


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## PaulineMRoss (Nov 9, 2012)

Daniel Abraham reckons about 3,000 words is his comfort zone for chapter length. As a reader, I would say it doesn't matter much. Shorter chapters tend to make things feels faster and pacier, and longer chapters can feel slower, depending on how they're written (that draggy 'will this chapter never end?' feeling). But go with the flow - the story will dictate the shape of each chapter.

As an aside, the length of the whole book is an issue if you intend to submit to mainstream publishers, but self-publishers can make their own choices on that.


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## A. E. Lowan (Nov 9, 2012)

Mindfire, it looks like we're in about the same boat.  My shortest chapter is about 800 words, and my longest just came in at about 4k.  I started with shorter chapters, but I am finding as I get deeper into the project that my chapters are actually getting longer and longer.  So, I wouldn't worry about it too much.  Chances are you're underestimating your final word count, and 7 chapters in is no time to fuss over word count.  New scenerios will occur to you as you write and you'll find yourself adding in new scenes (you notice you're already doing just that  ).  Just write, and see where you end up!


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## Grand Lord BungleFic (Nov 9, 2012)

There is something I still don't understand about book length.  I keep hearing that much more than 100,000 words is too long.  Yet I've tried counting the number of words on a page for some of my favorite fantasy novels and then multiplying the result by the number of pages.  Using this approach, it seems that many are over 200,000 words.  I think all (or nearly all) of the Sword of Truth novels are over 200,000 words.  I don't know about the Eragon series, but I suspect they are as well.  

Am I missing something somewhere?

I guess I worry about the issue because I'm in my 2nd revision now and my book is 181,000 words (based on the 'word count' feature of Microsoft Word).  I can't even imagine how I would cut the story down to 100,000 without gutting important things.


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## SeverinR (Nov 9, 2012)

I thought chapter lengths were whatever they needed to be to tell the scene.

Total word count does matter, but if the 90000 words fit in 3 or 100 chapters what does it matter?


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## BWFoster78 (Nov 9, 2012)

Grand Lord BungleFic said:


> There is something I still don't understand about book length.  I keep hearing that much more than 100,000 words is too long.  Yet I've tried counting the number of words on a page for some of my favorite fantasy novels and then multiplying the result by the number of pages.  Using this approach, it seems that many are over 200,000 words.  I think all (or nearly all) of the Sword of Truth novels are over 200,000 words.  I don't know about the Eragon series, but I suspect they are as well.
> 
> Am I missing something somewhere?
> 
> I guess I worry about the issue because I'm in my 2nd revision now and my book is 181,000 words (based on the 'word count' feature of Microsoft Word).  I can't even imagine how I would cut the story down to 100,000 without gutting important things.



When you're hearing that 100k is too long, are they discussing fantasy in particular?  

I've also read that, for most genres, 100k is too long.  For fantasy, especially epic fantasy, the standard is different.


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## BWFoster78 (Nov 9, 2012)

Regarding chapters getting longer as you go, I've read contrary advice.  Long chapters slow pacing.  You want slower pacing at the start of the book, and, overall, you want to build to a climax.  The advice I read is to make chapters, in general, shorter as you get near the end.

Just a thought.


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## Mindfire (Nov 9, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> Regarding chapters getting longer as you go, I've read contrary advice.  Long chapters slow pacing.  You want slower pacing at the start of the book, and, overall, you want to build to a climax.  The advice I read is to make chapters, in general, shorter as you get near the end.
> 
> Just a thought.



Yeah, but there's not all that much to talk about at the beginning, so I end up making the chapters shorter so I can just get on with it. I also try to avoid long stretches of narration or people talking for fear that it'll look/sound like an infodump. :/


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## BWFoster78 (Nov 9, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> So, right now, my chapters are about 1300-1400 words _on average_. My longest chapter so far is 2700 words and my shortest is around 900. So far I'm seven chapters in with a projected length of 35 chapters, though it will likely be longer because I plan to insert some chapters that weren't in my original outline. Disregarding those, with my 1400 word average, projected first draft length is around 49,000 words. With the new chapters, it might get to 56,000. _Maybe_.
> 
> Is that too short? Are my chapters too short? I get this feeling like I'm doing something wrong because it ought to be longer. (Isn't 90,000 words the average for a fantasy novel?) My writing style does tend to be pretty straightforward. Maybe I'm not embellishing enough or giving too few details.  Thoughts?



I think that, typically, the genre requires longer books.

Are you positive you're putting the necessary character development and world building into the work?  Maybe make the plot more complex.  Add subplots.

I think a novel absolutely can work at 50k.  If you were writing scifi action or a thriller, I'd say you were right on course.  For fantasy...

Not saying it can't work, just that readers of a genre tend to have certain expectations.  Thwart those expectations only with careful consideration.


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## BWFoster78 (Nov 9, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Yeah, but there's not all that much to talk about at the beginning, so I end up making the chapters shorter so I can just get on with it.



But that's where the character development and world building go.  The end is all about the plot threads coming together and being resolved.  

It kinda sounds like your book might be too focused on plot (though this is wildly speculative conjecture based on absolutely nothing concrete).


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## wordwalker (Nov 9, 2012)

Grand Lord BungleFic said:


> There is something I still don't understand about book length.  I keep hearing that much more than 100,000 words is too long.  Yet I've tried counting the number of words on a page for some of my favorite fantasy novels and then multiplying the result by the number of pages.  Using this approach, it seems that many are over 200,000 words.  I think all (or nearly all) of the Sword of Truth novels are over 200,000 words.  I don't know about the Eragon series, but I suspect they are as well.



I think the difference is that these 100K-ish estimates are agents' advice for us mere mortals, people trying to build our careers. The 200K+ epics work better once you _are_ Terry Goodkind, Robert Jordan, or the like. Of course all of those mega-authors had to start somewhere, and I don't know how many of them had been publishing shorts and smaller novels for years and how many just sent the first epic to an agent wrapped in a lot of luck and sheer persistence, but...

(Edited in: and, non-fantasy does tend to have tighter standards, more in the 80-100K range, since they aren't as much about worldbuilding. My first post about this used the figures for fantasy.)

*Then again,* thinking about this, self-publishing may make those tighter standards obsolete. If you want to build your career on 181,000-word novels, self-publishing would mean you wouldn't have to compete with more modest works for publisher slots, you just go straight to (like published authors have to do anyway) teaching readers to give you a try.


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## Mindfire (Nov 9, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> But that's where the character development and world building go.  The end is all about the plot threads coming together and being resolved.
> 
> It kinda sounds like your book might be too focused on plot (though this is wildly speculative conjecture based on absolutely nothing concrete).



Yeah, probably the greatest flaw in my writing is my impatience. Everything must be in service to the almighty plot.


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## Ireth (Nov 9, 2012)

Grand Lord BungleFic said:


> There is something I still don't understand about book length.  I keep hearing that much more than 100,000 words is too long.  Yet I've tried counting the number of words on a page for some of my favorite fantasy novels and then multiplying the result by the number of pages.  Using this approach, it seems that many are over 200,000 words.  I think all (or nearly all) of the Sword of Truth novels are over 200,000 words.  I don't know about the Eragon series, but I suspect they are as well.



I believe it has to do with manuscript format. The standard seems to be double-spaced, 12-point Times New Roman or Courier New font, with 1-inch margins all around and a half-inch indent starting each paragraph. That fits an average of 250-300 words (depending on which font you use) on each page, and that is how the word counting is done. Things get messed with when the novel is actually published and the line spacing, page sizes etc. are changed, so trying it with published books doesn't work.


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## brokethepoint (Nov 9, 2012)

I found this interesting.

250 words per page is generally considered to be standard. This
standard was set in earlier times, when most manuscripts were prepared
on typewriters with fixed pitch (monospace) fonts. Even though times
have changed, and many more fonts and text options are now available
to the writer, the old guideline of 250 words per page is still the
norm.

WHITE SPACE. Manuscripts are counted by page rather than computer word
count because authors write with varying amounts of 'white space'...
It's possible a page with a good deal of narrative might contain 300+
words, while a page with lots of short dialogue might be not more than
200. Therefore, the editor has to think in terms of number of pages,
not the number of words."

"Word count: based on 25 lines per page in Courier New 12 pt. averages
approximately 250 words per page. 20 pages, an average chapter,
=25,000; 200 pages=50,000; 400 pages=100,000; 600 pages=150,000;
800=200,000 words. Most books are between 50 and 100,000 words long.
Publishers estimate by pages, including the white space. A computer
count of 50,000 words may be 65,000 in publishers' terms. If you use a
computer word count note it on the front of the ms."

Google Answers: Generally accepted number of words per page


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## Twook00 (Nov 9, 2012)

Is it really a question about word count, or is it pacing?  Seems like a chapter is going to have a beginning, middle, and end (which you probably have), so how long those chapters should be depends on how much setup, action, dialogue, setting, introspection, character devlopment, and world building is needed to make it flow.  

I know that many authors are just naturally tight writers, so they have to add meat to their chapters as part of the revision process.  Maybe you fall into that category?


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## Mindfire (Nov 9, 2012)

brokethepoint said:


> I found this interesting.
> 
> 250 words per page is generally considered to be standard. This
> standard was set in earlier times, when most manuscripts were prepared
> ...



Really? Because the prevailing wisdom I've read says that archaic standard is long gone now that we live in the computer age and that word count = actual computer word count.


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## brokethepoint (Nov 9, 2012)

The information is a couple years old so that may be changing.  I would look at is as a way to get an approximate number of pages based on word count.

From what I can see it still looks like the 250 words per page is still a good way to estimate.

I have not looked at eBook formatting so I do not know if that is different.


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## Mindfire (Nov 9, 2012)

I think I've figured out my problem. My writing is too "linear". 

http://moodywriting.blogspot.com/2012/04/linear-writing-leads-to-flat-narrative.html?m=1

All of the early and mid-story conflicts are relativlely small and end rather quickly. So I guess I have 3 options:

-Stretch out the smaller conflicts by adding filler, which would get boring and repetitive.

-Make my characters less badass, which would pain me.

-Make the early conflicts more complicated somehow, which is the most difficult option. 

Oh boy.


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## BWFoster78 (Nov 9, 2012)

When you want to add tension to a scene -

1. Give the protagonist a goal
2. Create an obstacle to the goal

If the tension is still lacking:

1. Increase the protagonist's motivation to attain the goal
2. Make the obstacle stronger

The same probably applies to your book.

Enhance the protagonist's motivation to achieve his goals.
Make it harder for him to achieve them.

On a book level, this will add scenes and complication.


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## VanClash (Nov 9, 2012)

I really wouldn't mind about word counts. My book is just 70,000 words, which might be a bit too short - but I've worked out the rough page count it'll be - and it's exactly what I wanted. Even though it's under the 'average' fantasy word count, it is what I want. So, my advice it - don't worry about the word count, if you are happy with it, then that’s good enough. 

Concerning chapters, I am in the same position as you, and I'm not too sure how the resolve it. Because I can make the chapters later/shorter - but that’ll mean I'm making a chapter end at a really bad bit. I've just tried to procrastinate solving that issue for now - and that's worked well for me .


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## T.Allen.Smith (Nov 9, 2012)

VanClash said:


> I really wouldn't mind about word counts. My book is just 70,000 words, which might be a bit too short - but I've worked out the rough page count it'll be - and it's exactly what I wanted. Even though it's under the 'average' fantasy word count, it is what I want. So, my advice it - don't worry about the word count, if you are happy with it, then that’s good enough.



This is good advice if you're planning to self-publish. If you're going to submit to a traditional house, you'll need to be concerned with their requirements... They'll be toting the bill after all.


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## Weaver (Nov 9, 2012)

brokethepoint said:


> The information is a couple years old so that may be changing.  I would look at is as a way to get an approximate number of pages based on word count.
> 
> From what I can see it still looks like the 250 words per page is still a good way to estimate.
> 
> I have not looked at eBook formatting so I do not know if that is different.



But why would you ESTIMATE, when any word processing program can tell you EXACTLY how many words you've got in your manuscript?

I've seen web sites that will tell you that Microsoft Word, as one example, is "inaccurate" in the word count it gives because it doesn't match the number from whatever method the writer of said site prefers for getting an estimate... This, to me, seems incredibly silly.


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## Weaver (Nov 9, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> I think that, typically, the genre requires longer books.
> 
> Are you positive you're putting the necessary character development and world building into the work?  Maybe make the plot more complex.  Add subplots.
> 
> ...



Yes, science fiction and thrillers _used to be _fairly short.  So was fantasy.  Genre fiction of _any_ kind used to be primarily serialized in pulp magazines back in the day, and that limited the length.  I haven't seen that in a recent works, though - not in sci-fi and not in thrillers (admittedly, I mostly read stuff by Preston & child, and a bit of Dean Koontz in a feeble hope that he'll soon stop being so hug-a-dog preachy and finish that third Christopher Snow novel), and not in fantasy.

By publishing standards, a novel is anything over 45K.  (Wikipedia says anything over 40,000 words:  Word count - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )  So technically 50K well within the requirements.  (If it's between 18 and 40-45K, it's a novella.  And apparently the short story I wrote for 11th grade English class - the one that made Mrs. L realize that maybe next year she ought to set a maximum word count for the assignment too - was actually a novelette at 7500 or so words.)

None of this is to say that a fantasy novel written now MUST be longer than is standard for that genre.  Traditinal publishers tend to want longer (but not ridiculously long) novels, but as others have said, self-publishing, and ebooks of any kind, are another matter.  (I've been editing a fantasy novel - the author is self-publishing in the real sense of the term, started his own company and all to do it - that clocks in at 240,000 words... Good story, but I'm glad I've only had to handle it in electronic copy.   )  A few of my favorite fantasy novels EVER were fairly short.  I don't have exact word counts, but the Amber novels by Roger Zelazny run between 185 and 250 pages in paperback.  (The first batch were serialized in _Galaxy_ magazine in the 70s.)  Those are really short novels by modern standards; you could fit the entire series of 10 inside the pages of a single Tad Williams novel.


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## Weaver (Nov 9, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> So, right now, my chapters are about 1300-1400 words _on average_. My longest chapter so far is 2700 words and my shortest is around 900. So far I'm seven chapters in with a projected length of 35 chapters, though it will likely be longer because I plan to insert some chapters that weren't in my original outline. Disregarding those, with my 1400 word average, projected first draft length is around 49,000 words. With the new chapters, it might get to 56,000. _Maybe_.
> 
> Is that too short? Are my chapters too short? I get this feeling like I'm doing something wrong because it ought to be longer. (Isn't 90,000 words the average for a fantasy novel?) My writing style does tend to be pretty straightforward. Maybe I'm not embellishing enough or giving too few details.  Thoughts?



I read a James Patterson novel once (the only worthwhile thing about it was the mild amusement I got from the appearance of the word "manticore" in the narration), and I recall the chapters were generally about 3-4 _pages_.  I've also seen chapters (in fantasy and sci-fi novels) that ran 30 pages or more.  There is no standard length.  A chapter is whatever it needs to be.  I personally prefer to divide the story into chapters according to what is happening - it's not an absolute, but chapter length does affect pacing to some degree.  (Think of a chapter as what happens between one "commercial break" and the next, if that helps.  Or a single "episode" in a series.)

(I seem to write chapters that run about 2000-2500 words.  My twin tries to make his at least 2500 and prefers 3000-3500.  The fantasy novel that I'll finish editing as soon as the author _sends me the last chapter _had 5000-word chapters in the beginning, and the last 10 or so - there are 60 chapters in all - they've been closer to 2000.)

There's also no standard for how many chapters a novel has.  Again, the only "rule" is "whatever works."

(I understand the issue with a story being short because the author tends to gloss over details.  However, _this is not necessarily a problem._  Some readers don't _want_ a lot of details; they want a story that moves quickly without being interrupted - as they see it - by description and backstory and all.)


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## wordwalker (Nov 10, 2012)

Honestly, chapter length is an artform in its own right.

I mean, just *scene* length combines the amount of plot and background in it, your style's speed, and other things (do you start the big gathering with the gavel, or five minutes walking in to build mood, or at the last third of the debate when the arguments have all crystalized?). Or just, what things do you think deserve their own scene at all?

And then chapter questions build onto those. I think the main differences chapter splits make are that 

they tell the reader "we finished a unit" or else "it's still going, but wasn't that a shocker!"
they make it easier to skip to other characters
they help the reader to pause reading there if he wants. 

(The last might be a good or bad thing. Light summer reading can have tiny chapters so you can always put it down when the pina coladas come; epic or mood-heavy tales may want the reader to settle in longer. Just let me plug the "readers average 7500-15000 words a sitting" figure again, it really seems right to me.)

Also, as the "Average Chapter Length" thread noted, it can be awkward if a book's chapters vary too much in length.

It could come down to what your scenes are like, and whether their sizes and buildup make better building blocks for shorter or longer chapters. Or you can start planning with your major events and then break those chapters down into scenes trying to make each end with a bang.

But it all ties together, and it's the whole that has to work.


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## Mindfire (Nov 10, 2012)

wordwalker said:


> Honestly, chapter length is an artform in its own right.
> 
> I mean, just *scene* length combines the amount of plot and background in it, your style's speed, and other things (do you start the big gathering with the gavel, or five minutes walking in to build mood, or at the last third of the debate when the arguments have all crystalized?). Or just, what things do you think deserve their own scene at all?
> 
> ...



In general, scene = chapter for me. I find that scene changes make natural chapter breaks.


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## Grand Lord BungleFic (Nov 11, 2012)

Isn't the ideal chapter length determined mainly by the pace of the novel?  I'm no expert but I never really planned the length of my chapters.  I just started ending them when I found the right moment to end it. My chapters range from about 2700 words to around 6000 but the overwhelming majority are about 4000.


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## Grand Lord BungleFic (Nov 11, 2012)

wordwalker said:


> I think the difference is that these 100K-ish estimates are agents' advice for us mere mortals, people trying to build our careers. The 200K+ epics work better once you _are_ Terry Goodkind, Robert Jordan, or the like. Of course all of those mega-authors had to start somewhere, and I don't know how many of them had been publishing shorts and smaller novels for years and how many just sent the first epic to an agent wrapped in a lot of luck and sheer persistence, but...



That's exactly what I worry about -- that a publisher may be unwilling to consider a long book from a total unknown.  I had hoped that Epic Fantasy was a sub-genre in itself that permitted novels to be 150,000+ words.  Does anyone know if Terry Goodkind published other works before his 200,000+ Sword of Truth?  Did the other authors of mega-novels publish shorter novels first?


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## JonSnow (Nov 12, 2012)

This topic has come up a few times. I've read a ton of epic fantasy, both the wordy/long type like Jordan/R.R. Martin/Goodkind, and the less wordy/long like Haydon/Brooks/Eddings. I've actually counted words and chapters from dozens of fantasy books/series, because I was curious about this for my own book. Here is what I have come up with, some of it being a response from prior posts in this thread.

First- 250 words per page is well below average for epic fantasy. Even non-epic fantasy like Dragonlance or David Eddings are over 300. For epic fantasy, I'd say you're safe anywhere from 325-400 words per page. I think you would want to take into account how long your book is going to be. If it will be 200k+ words, you're OK going toward the upper end. The first book of my series will be around 150k words, and my average page length is around 350. 

Chapter Length- Don't change your writing to accommodate this, though a general rule of thumb would probably be around 15 pages. Give or take a few, depending the plot and the pacing, your chapters could range from 10-20 pages without distracting the reader. This would put you around 3500-5000 words per chapter, which I would say puts you right in the sweet spot. 

Take it for what it's worth. This is just my opinion, and I'm not a publisher. Just taking examples from what is currently being done in the epic fantasy genre. Ultimately, your publisher is going to determine words per page/page per chapter depending on fonts and page layout.


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## Steerpike (Nov 12, 2012)

1. You don't need chapters if you don't want them;
2. The chapter length should develop according to your own sense of how it should be. You can look at published books on the shelves and find anything from chapters running a couple of pages to chapters running very long indeed.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Nov 12, 2012)

JonSnow said:


> ...250 words per page is well below average for epic fantasy.



The 250 word per page mark is generally accepted as the correct amount for manuscript submittal to a publisher or literary agent. It has nothing to do with average words per page of already published works.

It's always best to check with the person you're submitting to for their specific standards.


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## BWFoster78 (Nov 12, 2012)

Grand Lord BungleFic said:


> Isn't the ideal chapter length determined mainly by the pace of the novel?  I'm no expert but I never really planned the length of my chapters.  I just started ending them when I found the right moment to end it. My chapters range from about 2700 words to around 6000 but the overwhelming majority are about 4000.



I agree with Steerpike, but, strangely enough, these numbers are spot on for my epic fantasy.


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## JonSnow (Nov 12, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> The 250 word per page mark is generally accepted as the correct amount for manuscript submittal to a publisher or literary agent. It has nothing to do with average words per page of already published works.
> 
> It's always best to check with the person you're submitting to for their specific standards.



This is good advice. I was referring to published work. Obviously, standards for the manuscript are going to vary, depending on who/where you're submitting it to.


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## wordwalker (Nov 13, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> The 250 word per page mark is generally accepted as the correct amount for manuscript submittal to a publisher or literary agent. It has nothing to do with average words per page of already published works.
> 
> It's always best to check with the person you're submitting to for their specific standards.



A word is a word is a word. Pages are only for shortcuts, and only if you know what the page format is.

Yes, "250/page" is handy if someone hands you a hard copy at a convention or something, assuming it's the proper Times 12 Double-Space-- but real publishing submissions are electronic, so I don't know if they pay any attention to that now.

(Or, you could eyeball pages if you're using studying how long an author makes certain kinds of scenes or such-- but you also want to count his average words per page to get real figures, so you can compare them to other books and layouts. Or, someone mentioned words per page as a measure of white space, writing streams of dialog vs blocky description and so on, but again that works only when comparing within a standard format, the same book, or similar books.)

Mostly, it comes back to word count anyway-- and now that we aren't fumbling with hard copy every time we write, I'd say it's better to think in word terms.


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## Zireael (Dec 2, 2012)

My chapters are anywhere from 1k to 1,5k, rarely longer. I used to write longer chapters, but found out quality suffered as a result.


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