# How much magic is too much magic?



## Terra Arkay (Oct 28, 2011)

How much magic is too much magic?

Say for example I was to create a world where everyone was omnipotent, would that ruin the rarity of being able to harness the power of magic? 

When should one draw the boundary line limiting the use of magic? 

Well I was thinking perhaps I could have a character who has a certain amount of magic but could only become omnipotent with the use of technology. What do you think about this concept?


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## Zak (Oct 28, 2011)

It always depends on the story. It is completely reasonable to have everyone have magical abilities, but this can make the story blander by eliminating that "coolness" of having magical abilities. 

Your concept is unique though-use it.


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## Devor (Oct 28, 2011)

Terra Arkay said:


> . . . omnipotent . . .



I really want to help, but . . . err, what?


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## Hans (Oct 29, 2011)

Terra Arkay said:


> Say for example I was to create a world where everyone was omnipotent, would that ruin the rarity of being able to harness the power of magic?


You could fill big tomes with philosophical questions about that world. Like "Can someone create something that an other one can not undo?"



> When should one draw the boundary line limiting the use of magic?


I would say, when it is no longer possible to create a good conflict, because magic solves everything. As long as you can build a good conflict and write a good story around that there is no too much.



> Well I was thinking perhaps I could have a character who has a certain amount of magic but could only become omnipotent with the use of technology. What do you think about this concept?


Is that your protagonist? How do you put interesting problems on him?


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## TWErvin2 (Oct 29, 2011)

If a character has virtually no limitations (or everyone due to magic) then what conflict or struggle will there be? Maybe a titanic one with mega powerful beings clashing? 

In most fantasy works there is some limiting factor with magic: 
Components to get it to work, years and years of study--if one can find a mentor to teach it--including possible expenses for the training
Limited by some natural ability
Users of magic are feared and hunted
A guild which controls what happens for the good of society or the guild
It requires energy and effort is expended and thus limitations exist
It takes something from the caster to use--age, sanity, strength, disfigures
Inherent dangers in using magic--unpredicatable, will draw the attention of powerful creatures

There are many possiblities.

If everyone through magic is omnipotent (or a combination of magic and technology), thus everyone is all powerful and bascially unlimited (ie gods in themselves) it may be difficult for readers to identify, feel empathy, care about the charcters and world. Not impossible, but quite a hurdle to overcome.

Just my two cents.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Oct 29, 2011)

The main character in my story stumbles onto super-human powers. What he's capable of doing physically basically makes him seem omnipotent. But as the story progresses, he discovers some limitations:

While bullets bounce harmlessly off of his chest, a master swordsman can easily slice through his arm or take his head off. A hundred-foot drop is harmless, but a thousand-foot drop results in several broken bones. He is also committed to a high moral standard (a condition for keeping his power), which means taking a human life is something that this character cannot do. In war, he can use his brute strength to carry fallen soldiers to a healer or he can use his body as a human shield to protect the innocent. But he can't fight.

Of course, his most dangerous opponents are seven demon lords in gigantic, distorted sentient forms. Raw muscle proves to be of little use in some of these battles.

What I am hoping to have pulled off is that I presented the reader with a protagonist who's as strong as Superman and made him seem vulnerable.


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## Dreamhand (Oct 29, 2011)

Sidekick, what is the hero's character arc?  What is the path of growth you see for him in terms of weaknesses to overcome and ambitions achieved?  What is the Hero's Journey you envision for him?

Omnipotence is an intriguing quality and has lots of potential as a story element.  What is it about that particular element that drew you to it as a story theme?


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## Seth son of Tom (Oct 29, 2011)

Hans said:


> As long as you can build a good conflict and write a good story around that there is no too much.



i'd say that's the bottom line


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## Legendary Sidekick (Oct 29, 2011)

Dreamhand said:


> Sidekick, what is the hero's character arc?  What is the path of growth you see for him in terms of weaknesses to overcome and ambitions achieved?  What is the Hero's Journey you envision for him?


Well... I've already written 155,000 words, and am basically tweaking/polishing and splitting the story into two books. (Might add/trim/cut chapters.)

Despite that^, the main character's arc is hard (for me) to explain. I can tell you that he starts off as a superhero's sidekick known as "Errandboy" (regular guy, no superpowers), he gains superpowers, learns to use them, learns their purpose, and sets out to use his powers for that purpose... but really, the main character only cares about the female lead, and whether she dies or not. It's a time-travel story, so think Doc Brown and Marty McFly, except that when McFly goes back to the present and sees Brown alive and well, they won't plan a wedding.

One weakness to overcome is that having super strength doesn't mean he can do everything or save everyone. He has to trust his friends to do their part in battle, and what's very hard for him is to accept a friend sacrificing himself.

Another weakness is having to hold himself up to a different standard. As I already mentioned, taking a human life is forbidden for the main character. I've already written two endings to the series: one where he kills the main villain, one where he does not. I haven't decided which to keep.

He needs to defeat seven demon lords, and the humans who conjured them.

The hero journeys across time and space in his mission to prevent the annihilation of all human life in the solar system. But his personal goal is to start a family with the female lead.



Dreamhand said:


> Omnipotence is an intriguing quality and has lots of potential as a story element.  What is it about that particular element that drew you to it as a story theme?


I always wondered what it would be like to have super-powers, and I always played barbarian types in RPGs, so extreme super strength seemed like an interesting power for the main character. But make no mistake. He's not omnipotent, nor is he immortal. There are other characters that are more or less his equal.


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## Dreamhand (Oct 29, 2011)

Wow... you've clearly put a LOT of effort into this story.  150K words is roughly a 300-page novel!  I'm curious as to why - after investing so much time and creativity into this tale - you're posing these questions now?  Is something not gelling for you in terms of story arc or character development?  Have you had readers look over your work and give you feedback?


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## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 1, 2011)

I wasn't asking the questions. I was just telling Terra Arkay (the OP) how I dealt with "too much magic," by giving an example of how my over-powered characters still have limitations. Feedback tells me my story/world/characters are interesting to those who read it... though I personally think I can grow as a writer, hence the desire for a slight revision. (Most likely, I will gradually do the revision while mainly focusing on new material.)


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## Dreamhand (Nov 1, 2011)

Dude... my bad.  I confused you and Terra Arkay, thinking you had started the thread.  Withdraw previous comment, with my apologies.


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## Codey Amprim (Nov 1, 2011)

I think when it gets to the point where there is a spell for *everything* is when the author needs some serious revising to do. There can't be a spell for every minor (and major) problem, otherwise you begin to lose legitimacy with your characters. I want to know how someone would deal with a problem, not just see them flip a wrist and the issue completely go away - that, in my eyes, is laziness.


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## SeverinR (Nov 1, 2011)

The best example is superman.

The story was interseting for a while, but eventually, people realized superman was invinsible.  All the super villains could do was tire him out, he was in no real threat.  So they had to find a weakness.

Most of us won't have to deal with the eventual realization that a MC is undefeatable, because the book ends before they realize.
But the stronger one side is, the less believable conflict will be.

If a mage can cause a nuclear blast, then no army can stand against him/her.  Nations would have to bow to who ever could cast this magic.  But if one can do it, then another could too. Super mages would worry of another super mage getting close enough to nuke them.  Nations would cower to these mages, but could not chose one over the other, because they would be nuked by the other.
One person rules the world because of super magic ability.  
Either society figures out a way to kill the mages, prevent others from learning this magic or they are enslaved by those that do.
Super powerful magic must have a balance, or the unbalanced power makes having conflict nearly impossible.  If a mage can nuke a major city, how does three peons sneak up on this powerful mage? Wouldn't he/she have protections?


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## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 1, 2011)

Dreamhand said:


> Dude... my bad.  I confused you and Terra Arkay, thinking you had started the thread.  Withdraw previous comment, with my apologies.


No apology necessary... I'm still new at this. Writing 150,000 words is nothing if I'm clueless about marketing my work.

Severin R, your post just reminded me of a Baldur's Gate PC game I played with some friends. Magic was outlawed, so if anyone in our party casted a spell in public, templars would appear out of nowhere (magically, the hypocrites!) and attack us.

Also, I agree with your thoughts on Superman. It doesn't help that he keeps rising from the dead. So... even if you kill him, he doesn't die!


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## fcbkid15 (Nov 1, 2011)

I love to include magic in my stories. It's especially fun to include it in a fight scene, coming up with different spells and what not. However, it's not fun if the magic user has a spell for everything, and can easily escape dangerous situations. It's been repeated several times, but don't make the magic be all powerful. Unless your character is a god or is supposed to have godlike powers, don't make him or her super powerful. Yes for some readers its cool to see how powerful somebody is, and say "That's so cool! (insert name) is so powerful!" But for most it is fun to have the magic user be powerful, but still have challenges and not be perfect. Have the magic take a toll on the user. I mean, look at Raistlin from the dragonlance novels. He is an all powerful being, but his form is crippled, he is miserable, and he is weakened by using his magic. 

Now you don't have to do something exactly like this, but something along the lines. Maybe have the magic user not know a spell that would come in handy in a situation. I've actually used this example before in one of my stories, but have the magic take a heavy toll on the user, and not give him enough time to rest. In mine the magic user used a powerful spell that takes a few days to recover from, but later on in the night which he used it, they encounter more trouble and he cannot do anything, being weakened. 

These are just my two cents though, but I hope it helps.


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## Terra Arkay (Nov 3, 2011)

SeverinR said:


> The best example is superman.
> 
> The story was interseting for a while, but eventually, people realized superman was invinsible.  All the super villains could do was tire him out, he was in no real threat.  So they had to find a weakness.
> 
> ...



Yeah yeah, I totally agree. Perhaps I'll leave the super powerful magic to the 'Watchers' as I call em in my story


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## Sheilawisz (Nov 12, 2011)

SeverinR said:


> If a mage can cause a nuclear blast, then no army can stand against him/her.  Nations would have to bow to who ever could cast this magic.  But if one can do it, then another could too. Super mages would worry of another super mage getting close enough to nuke them.  Nations would cower to these mages, but could not chose one over the other, because they would be nuked by the other.
> One person rules the world because of super magic ability.
> Either society figures out a way to kill the mages, prevent others from learning this magic or they are enslaved by those that do.
> Super powerful magic must have a balance, or the unbalanced power makes having conflict nearly impossible.  If a mage can nuke a major city, how does three peons sneak up on this powerful mage? Wouldn't he/she have protections?


In my fantasy stories I have super mages that can easily nuke cities, and that's not a very special power or some sort of forbidden weapon that they fear to use... it's just a common weapon and all of them can do it =)

I have no trouble in my stories for having mages like that... They usually abuse and kill common people (who are utterly defenseless against the magic) also my mages do not care to rule their worlds as they let the people have their own Queens, and to create a conflict I simply have different cultures of mages that fight each other- it's fun!!

Sheila


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## Thalian (Nov 13, 2011)

Personally, I hate the Forgotten Realms novels that end up being a massive spell-duel. Each character gets shredded more than once and they are magically healed so they can return to firing off a seemingly endless amount of spells. But magic does have it's place, in my story there are lots of mages yet in a big battle they are usually counteracted by mages that are only able to cast defensive enchantments or whatnot, so not many spells get through to rip through an enemies ranks. Just give me two skilled swordsmen and an epic yet realistic duel between them and I will call myself happy.


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## Sheilawisz (Nov 13, 2011)

Thalian said:


> Just give me two skilled swordsmen and an epic yet realistic duel between them and I will call myself happy.


I love good sword fights too =)


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## sashamerideth (Nov 14, 2011)

I have one character who has the ability to alter metal, and has trained it to be instinctive, so the foe's sword or armour can become as weak as tinfoil or lose shape entirely, but he has to be at most a few steps away before it will work. I am thinking of reducing or removing any magic elements that act over a long distance.


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## Ravana (Nov 24, 2011)

My usual answer is that it's "too much" magic when you can't plausibly explain why something _doesn't_ happen as a result of the available magic. 

Take the Superman example. It's not just that his opponents can't do more than occupy his attention for a short while–nearly all of them shouldn't even be able to do _that_ much. And it has nothing to do with his strength or invulnerability, either… because the next closest runner-up in the unbeatable category should be the Flash, who has neither. Both of them are capable of moving faster than most everyone else can even see, let alone react to: there shouldn't be fights, only blurred smackdowns. And yet they always seem willing to slow up and give their opponents a fighting chance… but why should they? (I know why the writers _have_ them do it: otherwise, there would be no comics. But why should the _characters_ do it?) The only two powers I can think of offhand that can "break" stories more easily are mind reading and teleportation… and both of those are usually represented with limitations–whereas speed is speed: if the character can use it at all in a practical form (without being killed by friction, for instance, or only being able to use it in straight-line applications, i.e. his _own_ reaction time is no better than anyone else's), this story-breaking aspect should crop up with depressing regularity.

That's what I mean by not being able to plausibly explain something that _doesn't_ happen. Another example, from fantasy–from extremely well-written fantasy, even, making this a stand-out exception in the stories–is in one of Glen Cook's "Black Company" novels. One of the magically-inclined characters is noticed blowing pebbles apart for practice… by heating up the water contained in the rock. (Don't ask. There were some very scientifically savvy magicians in those books.) Which would indeed work just as Cook represented it. Now… anyone remember off the top of their head what the percentage of water by mass in a human body is? Did this character ever take advantage of this little detail? It's not like he was exactly squeamish: he was part of a mercenary company, and was personally responsible for hundreds, perhaps thousands, of deaths in the stories. Okay, so maybe he didn't like watching as bodies went pop–rocks are far less messy. More likely, the author never considered the possibility that he could, that it was a logical extension of abilities he'd already manifested.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 26, 2011)

Interesting point, Ravana.

When I throw my characters into the fray, I try to think in terms of what each character would do and could do in a given situation. I don't THINK I have any glaring errors like what you've mentioned. As I go through the polish/revision process, this is something I'll try to look for myself... just to be sure.


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## DavidJae (Apr 27, 2012)

Having a character with unlimited magic does limit your story somewhat. If he can do anything with a wave of his hand, then we're is the tension and drama?


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