# Medieval Knights?



## Devor (Oct 28, 2011)

In one of the stories I'm working on, the events focus around one very small country in a relatively high-magic world, and a key part of their defenses is a stalwart group of about two dozen knights, armed with everything the country thus far has to give them.

And it's not quite enough.  They're still a little boring, and it's a problem because the main character in a supposed follow up sequel - who by herself is awesome enough - is going to be one of them.

In my notes, I describe the role the knights are supposed to play as that of Gandalf.  They arrive on scene, rally those around them and fix everybody else's mistakes.  They're trained to be charismatic people who might ride out front to negotiate with the other army's leader or visit an ally's king in his throne room and intimidate them into doing the right thing.  Of course, in practice they often fall short of expectation and may muddy things up considerably.

So I need ideas or examples on how I might be able to spruce them up.  Does your writing feature knights, and how do they stand out?  Are there published works which do a good job of them?  I won't use anybody's ideas unless you say it's alright directly in the post, and probably not even then.  But hearing someone else give an example really helps to get me thinking at my best.


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## sashamerideth (Oct 30, 2011)

Planning a sequel at this stage is really getting ahead of yourself. Also if your one Knight is supposed to be the star of a story then that is the story you should probably be writing.

It sounds like you are trying to write with too many primary characters in this work.maybe cut it back a bit.


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## Devor (Oct 30, 2011)

sashamerideth said:


> Planning a sequel at this stage is really getting ahead of yourself. Also if your one Knight is supposed to be the star of a story then that is the story you should probably be writing.
> 
> It sounds like you are trying to write with too many primary characters in this work.maybe cut it back a bit.



Okay.  Thanks for post but I don't know if I follow what you mean or where you're coming from, so I probably wasn't very clear.  I'm working on two separate pieces, and this one really follows a single character and his personal challenges which lead him all over the country.  His story mostly wraps up in the end, and a possible sequel would begin around a new character and develop around loose ends from the first one.  All I have for a sequel is a character write up.  The other piece, which you might have seen me refer to elsewhere, does use a lot of characters, but that's because they die a lot, kind of like in 24.

I need to work on the knights for a scene I'm working on in the first book.  The character, a brave and loyal goodguy Knight, arrives on scene and encounters the main character.  For reasons too complex to type here, they have a fight, and the knight - a genuine good guy who got a little overzealous - is killed by the protagonist.  The event sparks consequences ever more disastrous.

But I need to get the knights right because a second book would focus around them.  So, putting aside my excessive number of primary characters, do you have any thoughts about medieval knights?


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## Dreamhand (Oct 30, 2011)

I guess the main question, Devor, is what purpose does knighthood serve in the context of your story?  

Are you setting up the downfall of a character because of their slavish devotion to unquestioned dogma that has ceased to have relevance or meaning in a world growing darker each day?  Is it a satire that mocks the unrealistic goodness and virtue of the anointed "knights" by revealing the flaws and foibles of the men and women beneath the armor?  

The idea of "knighthood" carries a lot of baggage in the minds of most fantasy readers.  Some good, some bad, but you're not going to get a neutral reaction to the word "knight".  Now, if you're looking for the bond of warriors joined by shared experience and common goal, then there's a clear emotion hook you can latch onto.  Or if you're looking for the "champion" vibe, those rare individuals who are recognized and honored as being the best at what they do, there's a whole different spectrum of possibility.

So why is it relevant that these characters be knights?  IS it essential that they even BE knights?  If something's not working, maybe you're looking at it the wrong way.  Turn it upside down and see if that helps.


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## Devor (Oct 30, 2011)

Dreamhand said:


> IS it essential that they even BE knights?



Essential:  Mounted, Heavily equipped, recognized and respected by the populace, viewed as good guys and heroes, report to the king; limited/subtle magical elements; they operate out of their own small castle and might be accompanied by a small group of soldiers

Unessential:  Dogma, Knight Label, Feudalism

My concern at the moment is making this character a more interesting and developed challenge, which results in a moral and personal disaster for the main character, without doing something that I would regret should I explore them more closely in a sequel.  I have a few unique elements so far, but I'm not satisfied with them.


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## Dreamhand (Oct 31, 2011)

Can you outline your story, Devon?  Give us an idea of the character hooks, main conflicts, and what's at stake for those characters?

"Making a character more interesting" is irrelevant without context in terms of the story being told.  Giving him blue hair and making him smoke cigars might make him more colorful (pardon the pun) but not a bit more interesting.

Give us a quick overview of key plot and character points and let's go from there.


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## Devor (Oct 31, 2011)

I would love to, but I don't want to go into too much detail as the forums are open to the public.  Everyone here is a little squeamish about having ideas stolen.

The story revolves around a character who has been afflicted with a curse that's transformed him into what would seem like a legendary monster.  The curse is very common in this country, but it normally affects only small animals which become violent and extremely deadly.  Normally ordinary soldiers are trained to fight creatures which have been infected, but when a larger animal is affected the knights are dispatched to take the creature out.

The main character, however, is still largely sane, although he initially had bouts of the frenzy.  Larger animals or people are rarely infected because their sheer size makes them resistant.  But when he kills the knight, the blood and reckless morality of it causes him to lose control and kill someone very close to him moments later.

If it helps, he was deliberately infected by people who want to bring the country down.  Their motives would be the loose ends covered if the story continues into a sequel.

In terms of world-building, this story takes place in a classic, Tolkeinish, medieval fantasy world, but focuses around one very small country which is rich in little, seemingly-magical differences.  For instance, there's a fruit which resembles a tiny coconut and grows in vines along the ground like strawberries, and there's a type of lizard which burrows into the shell and wears it like a turtle shell as he climbs up the side of trees.  Somehow there's a point where that's slightly important and I was thinking I might post that scene in the showcase, eventually.

Magic is real, but more likely there will be seemingly magical effects built into the knight's equipment.  Engineering is also well developed and common, at times very loosely inspired by the sketches of Da Vinci.  One of the country's defenses includes a spell that causes saltpeter/guncotton to begin to deteriorate when it enters the country, although they have a minor explosive which they do sometimes use.

My focus on the moment is with the knights.  As I mentioned, I have in my notes that they're supposed to be like Gandalf for this small country, the people who arrive on scene, rally the troops and fix everything that's going wrong.  I have in my notes for the sequel character an uncontextualized scene in which she plants her shield into the ground, and a mace springs up out of it which she uses like a gong to rally the town.  For this current scene, I was thinking he would lose his weapon and have the same mace spring suddenly as a backup weapon.  That's about all I've got for the knight's abilities so far, except for a few things which wouldn't be unique to the knight.

In terms of the knights as a force I have an emblem, a name, and a description of their castle.  They would share the same values as the nation at large, which is the sense that they need to pull together as a nation in order to survive, as they did when the country evacuated from their homeland and settled on this dangerous location during a war.  The location, of course, is dangerous because of the same curse that's infecting the character, which their present society has focused on putting down.


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## Dreamhand (Oct 31, 2011)

Ahhhh yessssss... NOW we're getting somewhere.  This sounds more and more interesting with each post, Devor.   And honest... I'm not drawing you out to steal your ideas... I just want to be able to contribute something useful to what your trying to accomplish (and I'm not sure what that is yet).

I LOVE the idea of a character transformed into a beast.  You didn't mention it, but if he was one of the knights, that would be even MORE awesome... the anguish of the hunter becoming the hunted.  Classic emotional mayhem.

So tell me about these knights that are trained to show up and fix what's wrong.  Specifically:

1) who trains them and what qualifies them to be "trainers of heroes"?
2) how are candidates selected?
3) what are the knights doing when they aren't rushing in to save the day?  
4) What is their heritage/history?

Right now, I'm getting more of a "Ghostbusters" read off these chaps than a "noble brotherhood of anointed warriors".  I get that they are supposed to be the "heroes that save the day" type of group, but that reads a little flat to me.  

By that I mean, it seems to lack depth and substance... real people rarely are just one thing or - if they are - their reasons for being that thing are wildly different.  

One kills monsters because his sister was killed and he's haunted by her ghost and guilt over his failure to save her.  
Another kills monsters because he's pathological and likes killing things.  
Another because the money is GREAT and he only has to work a few weeks out of the year.  
And a fourth doesn't really WANT to, but he swore an oath to his father on his death bed and is just going through the motions to honor his memory even though he just wants to be a cook in a local inn.
etc
etc

Now THAT group is interesting, at least for me.  So when I ask questions about the characters and the context of "knights" in the story, I'm trying to get an understanding of how these knights drive your story forward.  Why can't they be mercenaries?  Or a family that has traditionally hunted these legendary monsters?  Once the thematic reason for the knights is clear, then the tweaks needed to make them an effective story element should become clearer.

Am I making sense or is this just blather?


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## sashamerideth (Oct 31, 2011)

Dreamhand, that's what I thought was missing from the description, the real people, the human element.


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## Devor (Nov 1, 2011)

I think, Dreamhand, we really are starting to get into writing the sequel a little prematurely.  I think it's best if the Knight which appears in this book walks the balance between good-guy reputation and unlikable aggression towards the curse so that the protagonist isn't hated for killing him, yet can still be said to have crossed some kind of tragic line in doing so.  I would rather learn later, in the sequel, through the next character's eyes, that he was the go-to Knight for killing these animals because other missions would take him too far from his wife and kids, while he was an orphan whose parents were killed by animals infected with the curse.  For instance.

But it will depend on what I want to do with the next character and her story.  I think that story will involve the small and I think wonderful country I'm building up now being torn down aggressively from all sides in a war, and Leahnel, the Knight, being the go-to-girl struggling to fix it.  When that times comes we'll learn about the strengths and weaknesses of the other knights who are supposed to be helping her.

But not now.  All I'm asking for is a few examples of what people have done or have read about with medieval knights.  I think I've set the scene for what I need them for pretty well by now.


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## Dreamhand (Nov 1, 2011)

Gotcha, Devor.  I'll look forward to seeing how this develops (give a PM when you post something in Showcase, okay?)


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## SeverinR (Nov 1, 2011)

I think a little research into the real knights might help give a feel for how your knights would be/act/do etc.

Chivalry/honor was a priority for a knight.  Some hid behind chivalry, some wore honor like a badge, some just pretended to follow the code.

Knowing some of chivalry of reality(rather then rumors*), will give you the basis for writing your knights code, their chivalry.
*rumors give some facts, but not the philosophy of why.  Knowing why will help beat out the dings in your code.


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