# Elves and Lizardmen



## King Raven Stark (May 2, 2012)

Can you guys give me different types of elves because the only types I know are Light, Dark, and Wood elves, and as far as Lizardmen go I will need your entire knowledge on that matter.

Thank You


----------



## Jabrosky (May 2, 2012)

Ugh, I really hate elves. Lizardmen, as larger reptiles, are awesome though. My favorite lizardmen are the Mesoamerican-inspired ones from the _Warhammer _universe:


----------



## shangrila (May 3, 2012)

If you're after traditional elves, that's pretty much all there is. Warcraft has blood elves, but they're just high (light) elves. Aside from that, yeah, it's only light, dark and wood elves. Although there's nothing stopping you from doing, say, water elves.

Lizardmen come up a fair bit. There's a few in ancient mythology (naga and gorgons come to mind), though typically they look like dragon-esque humanoids.


----------



## Steerpike (May 3, 2012)

Just make up whatever you want about elves and lizardmen.


----------



## Justme (May 3, 2012)

Dude don't try to name tribes of elves. Use the regions they are living and hunting at. Forest, Mountain, Valley, Plains, ect. Tribal names can be made up anywhere, but not where their homeland is. When I think of Elves, I envision The American Indians before Columbus invaded. They lived a tribal lifestyle and hunted for food, just as the Elves are supposed to. Many times I wish I could return the world to such a time and block The West from ever setting foot on North America. We haven't exactly made a good name for ourselves.


----------



## Steerpike (May 3, 2012)

The North American Indians weren't exactly as idyllic as people make them out to be. They had their own rivalries, war, politics, and intrigues among tribes. Part of the reason some of the first Europeans received some of the help they did was because Indian tribes were hoping to leverage a friendship with the newcomers against other tribes. The same sort of "internal" warfare and intrigue was advantageous to the Spanish elsewhere in the New World. Columbus himself never set foot on any land that is now part of the 50 states of the U.S., as far as I know.

If you want to read an excellent article dealing with Tisquantum (Squanto) and the Europeans in what is now New England, check this out:  http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/squanto.html


----------



## JBryden88 (May 3, 2012)

Regarding elves. If you don't need them, don't use them. Or...
Elf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look up your elven history. Before they were hippies with bows, elves are fundamentally awesome.

When I was 15 and I tried high fantasy I tried to be different with my elves. I had the "royal elves," which were your typical high elf in that they were nobility, snobby, and so on. But they also killed anyone who tried to enter their cities without being elven themselves. I had "woodland elves," that performed animal and sometimes even human sacrifice to appease the gods of balance, and their druids were loosely based off of celtic druids. I also had "death elves," a drow and vampire hybrid that attacked at night, and could only be slain by fire.

Try your own take on them.

As for Lizardmen...

My favorite lizardmen are the Iksar from the MMORPG Everquest and Everquest 2. They were based off the Romans, yet they were tribal, yet they were organized, and "evil" yet had plenty of personality. One of the few things that kept me in that game for the time I played it was the fact that the Iksar, while being "evil," had rich history. And roleplaying one... being a proud member of a race that's now at war with itself, its former slaves, all while being oppressed by the human kings and their (the iksar's own) evil emperor?  Pure gold.

Your lizardmen can be tribal, they can be civilized, bad, good, or neutral. When I was still fascinated by high fantasy, my own lizardmen appeared evil in the struggle against dragonmen, but turned out to be the good guys by the end.


----------



## Aravelle (May 3, 2012)

You may actually want to look into cryptozoology and reports of "real life" lizardmen. Even look into Spiderman- there's a lizard man villian in there, see if any of his traits are worth analyzing.


----------



## Aravelle (May 3, 2012)

Also, it wouldn't hurt if you made the lizard men cold blooded and/or amphibious. I don't know what kind of story you're writing..but don't put them in a sewer. :/


----------



## Justme (May 3, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> The North American Indians weren't exactly as idyllic as people make them out to be. They had their own rivalries, war, politics, and intrigues among tribes. Part of the reason some of the first Europeans received some of the help they did was because Indian tribes were hoping to leverage a friendship with the newcomers against other tribes. The same sort of "internal" warfare and intrigue was advantageous to the Spanish elsewhere in the New World. Columbus himself never set foot on any land that is now part of the 50 states of the U.S., as far as I know.
> 
> If you want to read an excellent article dealing with Tisquantum (Squanto) and the Europeans in what is now New England, check this out:  Native Intelligence | History & Archaeology | Smithsonian Magazine



Thank you my friend. I do love history and have heard the tail before. I didn't mean to make to sound, like I was romanticizing anything. I know, very well that tribes raided other tribes and just like any other human, the Indians were political and manipulative.

The reason I brought up the Europeans, was because they introduced items that were such a leap in technology for the Indians, that it nearly made their defenses obsolete. What good was wood and stone against armored men, wielding metal and riding horses. To add to that the diseases that The West brought over decimated hundreds, if not thousands of Indians.

Have you ever wondered what the world would look like if the Europeans hadn't had that edge? Would the US be here and would South America have developed as it had, if the Incas were still in power?  I have heard rumors about The Incas doing some sorts of surgeries. If that was the case and Christianity had not been introduced to squash such things, what would be the level of medicine in today's world?

You know, It sounds like that tracing the history of what might have been, might just make a good fantasy book.


----------



## Steerpike (May 3, 2012)

Justme:

I think that would make a great fantasy story, personally. Any of the "New World" cultures, absent a European influence. You're right about the disease factor. I think it is more like in the hundreds of thousands. The diseases preceded the European movement west, and by the time Europeans got to different areas of the new world and found relatively small native populations, they just assumed that there were only small numbers of people in the area. The truth is, the spread of disease radically changed many of these populations before the Europeans ever go to them.

It is sad. Fascinating cultures, in my view.


----------



## Saigonnus (May 3, 2012)

Well, I created a race of moon elves with pale, almost ephemeral skin that were nocturnal. They hold themselves aloof even from the other elven cultures; residing in protected places (usually in the mountains) with an unobstructed view of the sky; or at least close to a place that offers one. Highly regimented militarily and insolar, the Moon elves are a deeply religious people that believe the moons are the holy trinity (my world has three) and great power can be had from their energies.

I also have the "Ssalar"; a race of lizard men that are also somewhat aloof from the other races. The Ssalar have three subraces within the culture that fill different roles within their society. The first are larger than the rest and have many of the same physiological features as iguanas; large spikes around their head and down their back and they have a thick tail that could easily be used as a weapon. They are the soldiers and elite protectors. The second type more closely resemble a salamander than the traditional view of something similar to an "Iguana". They are sleek and brightly colored without spikes or protrusions. The most populous of the three, they are the craftsmen, artisans and base laborers within the culture, producing all of what a community would eat and most of what they would trade. The third type are "Ssulvi" and are smaller, similar to a gecko and are the magical/religious facet of the society since they are the smartest of the three types. They fill thee roles of alchemists, herbalists, healers and religious figures. Often they can use traditional magic; though generally along the lines of a druid; spells and abilities that would be useful in the swamps they generally live in.  

I think you could create a race of elves that fits within the scheme of the world you are working with without offending those that enjoy fantasy as long as it is believable and distinct, even if you use one of the other archetypes and change it up a little. Just try to take into account how they'd interact with others, what their strengths are and weaknesses in case it becomes necessary to have conflict with that race. 

The same could be said of lizard men; use examples from real life and imagine what they'd be like as a 6 foot (or more not counting tail) creature. How would they act? what type of social structure would they have? What are their strengths and weaknesses, do they use weapons or do they have claws/spikes to employ?


----------



## shangrila (May 3, 2012)

Saigonnus said:


> Well, I created a race of moon elves with pale, almost ephemeral skin that were nocturnal. They hold themselves aloof even from the other elven cultures; residing in protected places (usually in the mountains) with an unobstructed view of the sky; or at least close to a place that offers one. Highly regimented militarily and insolar, the Moon elves are a deeply religious people that believe the moons are the holy trinity (my world has three) and great power can be had from their energies.


This is cool.


----------



## Queshire (May 3, 2012)

One thing I suggest is avoiding over using S sounds with lizardmen, it's getting to the point of being cliche. No offense, but I cringed everytime I read that name.


----------



## Saigonnus (May 4, 2012)

Queshire said:


> One thing I suggest is avoiding over using S sounds with lizardmen, it's getting to the point of being cliche. No offense, but I cringed everytime I read that name.



No worries... It would take alot more than that to offend me. Just out of curiosity, what would you call a race like that? How would they speak?

I would think, that assuming they had the powers of complex speech like we have, they'd speak almost with a lisp when speaking the human tongue since most lizards don't have the same type of tongue we have and may not be able to form words the same way. Not to mention that it's the name they call themselves, not what other races call them. 

"Ssiliv Ssynthis at your service sirrah... Viceroy to the Ssalar Tsar Ssimu." <--- makes me laugh


----------



## Justme (May 4, 2012)

Well, being a lizard and with the reasonable possibility that they were, at least some part aquatic, wouldn't there be some basic visual communication as in gestures. I mean speaking underwater does have it's drawbacks. As for sounds I think it would depend on their intellect. Maybe have only those in the higher ranks and dignitary's being able to communicate effectively and have the speed of speech mirror the speed of body movements.


----------



## edd (May 4, 2012)

How do lizards communicate?
body language is the way to go for lizards


----------



## Queshire (May 4, 2012)

Hmm... Well, let's see.... Personally I like turtles better then lizards, turtles gets me thinking about tortoises, that gets me thinking about those giant Galapagos tortoise. Messing around with Galapagos a bit comes up with Galap'apoi. There you go, I'd call them Galap'apoi. In this webcomic I read, one of the character's is a genetically engineered humanoid wolf. She had to learn Ventriloquism in order to talk without moving her lips simply because her lips aren't shaped properly to make the sounds of speech. I don't know enough about the mouth structure of lizards and the physical requirements for speech, but I do think that's a cool concept and more unique then S sounds. I'd describe their speech as low and mumbling with a somewhat uncanny lack of lip movement. I'd also have their natural language be so different from regular speech that they wouldn't have an accent or their accent would be the same as whoever they learned from. I do like the idea of body langauge for speech, it makes me think of rattle snakes and those lizards with the frills which pop out when threatened. I would give them a number of bone like spikes for hair which they can control the position of and make them rattle. In their own language the meaning of various words would change depending on the position of their spikes and whether they are rattling. They might have only 1 word for person, but depending on the position and rattling of their spikes it could me friend, enemy, brother, sister, lover, etc.

Naturally, communication between the two would be rare / hard with the Galap'apoi needing to learn ventriloquism and humans needing a prosthetic spikes. They are still lizardmen, but they instantly become a lot more unique.

Hmm.... this just started as a thought experminent, but I'm liking my Galap'apoi, might have to find a use for 'em in my story...


----------



## Saigonnus (May 4, 2012)

I made the race many years ago and haven't really used it for anything beyond a bunch of gaming sessions and more recently a work in progress, but not a serious one. I haven't really given it much thought about language and different forms of communication, so perhaps I will go back and look at the notes I wrote for them as see if perhaps I could change things around a bit to "modernize" them.


----------



## Caliburn (May 5, 2012)

I enjoy making up twists on traditional races. A while back I came up with an elf variant that have piranha-like mouths, mottled greenish skin (that is a bit clammy), bulging black eyes and the typical elf-ears, gaunt features and wiry musculature--kind of like a sinister mutation of wood elves. I didn't have a name for them so I just called them "dire" elves. 

Deconstructing and reconstructing the elements of traditional fantasy archetypes is always fun. It helps to reflect on what each trope means to you, for instance elves are part of a long lineage of "fae" creatures like fairies and wisps that--in my book--are often related to elemental air and the power of intuition (archery skill can be symbolically related to intuition--the power of making accurate intuitive "leaps"--and can be seen in centaurs and Sagittarius as well as elves). Keen external senses in fantasy can be a metaphor for insight or inner-sense in real life.


----------



## SeverinR (May 10, 2012)

Traditionally:
High elves, wood elves, wild elves(basically elven indians), Gray elves(high inteligent elves that tend to stay amongst themselves.) Drow or Dark elves, Elves of the north pole(Santa's slaves),

I use this for the basis of elves in my world. But make the elves yours, not the traditional definition.


----------



## Chekaman (May 11, 2012)

Terry Pratchett had an interesting take on elves as being beautiful but evil. How about water elves that live under the water, as shrangrla suggested?


----------



## Aravelle (May 15, 2012)

shangrila said:


> If you're after traditional elves, that's pretty much all there is. Warcraft has blood elves, but they're just high (light) elves. Aside from that, yeah, it's only light, dark and wood elves. Although there's nothing stopping you from doing, say, water elves.
> 
> Lizardmen come up a fair bit. There's a few in ancient mythology (naga and gorgons come to mind), though typically they look like dragon-esque humanoids.



Duuuuude. Aqua elves? I love it. If no one takes that idea, I gladly would. ;_;


----------



## Jabrosky (May 15, 2012)

About the lizardmen...I was listening to the _Survivor: Marquesas_ theme a short moment ago, and for some reason it inspired in me the idea of Polynesian-flavored lizardpeople. They would have swirling black stripes and brilliant Kamehameha-esque crests running down their necks.

Sorry, my imagination farted.


----------



## Caliburn (May 16, 2012)

Hey that's pretty cool Jabrosky. They should be able to surf 

I tend to be a fan of the whole stone-age "troglodyte" thing for lizard dudes. I'm especially fond of the Viashino from the plane of Jund in Magic: The Gathering; they are more like killer-crocs.


----------



## shangrila (May 17, 2012)

Aravelle said:


> Duuuuude. Aqua elves? I love it. If no one takes that idea, I gladly would. ;_;


You're welcome to it, man.


----------



## SeverinR (May 18, 2012)

How about amphibian elves? Live in or out of water. A little easier for land humanoids to meet and greet.

Look at the gills on that one!


----------

