# About Info Dumps...



## Roughdragon (Mar 29, 2016)

I try to avoid info dumps in my story, but I feel that it's necessary to give the reader some backstory about the world without going on a five page long monologue. I'm thinking that the character would find chunks of information from books or people on his journey. Thoughts?


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## Garren Jacobsen (Mar 30, 2016)

Roughdragon said:


> I try to avoid info dumps in my story, but I feel that it's necessary to give the reader some backstory about the world without going on a five page long monologue. I'm thinking that the character would find chunks of information from books or people on his journey. Thoughts?



That can still become info dumpy. There is no one way to info dump. Literally any method employed can be an info dump. It seems to me that an info dump is less about how the information is delivered, but rather how much of the information is delivered in a single sitting. So this can work, theoretically, but it can still be an info dump. To me it comes off as a bit video gamey, but other books have done it. Also, try not to make that even a primary method of conveying information. It can of course be _a_ method but it shoudl not be _the_ method. Create a variety of ways that people can display this information.

One of my favorites are swears or things people use as swears. Like in the Clone Wars series, one clone tells another something like "No way in Malachor [am I going into that obvious ambush]." Then in Rebels we understand that Malachor is a planet. Putting two and two together the planet Malachor must be a pretty bad place. I would suggest thinking about all the techniques of dropping in world building and get them all into your book or the ones that are the most natural for your characters and world.


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## Deleted member 4265 (Mar 30, 2016)

I agree with a lot of what Brian Scott Allen says. Info dumps are really about the quantity of information being unloaded in one sitting. A good way to avoid infodumping is to trust your reader to figure things out if you drop little hints. I usually only explain things that are unclear, and then only the bare minimum.

You can also convey information in the form of a disagreement: For example in my story I have a wedding between two families of different cultural backgrounds and through the arguments over the planning of the wedding, I not only convey the tension between the two families but also a lot of information about the marriage traditions of the two cultures.

Or you can have someone do something incorrectly. Like having someone botch a magic spell when everyone knows you're supposed to say the incantation and then wave your wand in a figure-eight or something like that. Or having someone get sick because they offended a water spirit by swimming in the lake and everyone knows lakes are full of evil spirits who don't like it if you swim in them.

However sometimes conveying large blocks of information all at once is necessary, like when someone is learning something new or for example, in my story religion plays a very important part in the story and while a general idea of the religion can be gleaned through hints and little bits of information, the myths and legends really need to be explained in detail. The best thing to do in a case like that is to show why the reader should care. You should make them want to know more before you try and tell them all about it. I only explain my religion completely after the reader has some rudimentary knowledge of it and has gleaned how important it is to people, how it affects everyday life, and most importantly how it affects the plot.

The key, really is to tie the information in with action and with significance. Because really, if it doesn't impact the story or characters, no matter how cool it is, it doesn't really need to be explained. And also, trust your readers to pick up on things. Treat them like intelligent adults (or children) and don't explain every little thing. A simple sentence or two in the right context can do more for you sometimes than a few paragraphs of description.


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## Incanus (Mar 30, 2016)

This is something I tend to think about a lot.  Exposition is a crucial component of any story—it provides meaning and context to the events.  In many fantasy stories, it can become very important indeed, especially if it is an alternate world and the reader will need to know how it all works in order to make sense of everything.

Exposition is not bad or evil or something to be avoided.  However, like any other element of fiction it needs to be handled correctly, and that comes from hands-on practice.

I see the term ‘info-dump’ basically as meaning poorly handled exposition.  I suppose it also means ‘lots of raw exposition lumped together’.

Personally, I find reading about the details of a fantasy world as enjoyable as all the other aspects of it (assuming I am enjoying the book in the first place).  If I didn’t, I probably would not be reading much genre fiction at all.  My favorite fantasy novels often include a good deal of info about the world.  I think there may be more leeway here than is commonly espoused by amateur writers.  I believe that if you’ve already done the job of ‘hooking’ a reader early in your story, you will have earned a chance to start really getting into the history and lore of your world.

Anyway, that’s my opinion, for what it might be worth.


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## skip.knox (Mar 30, 2016)

I had a bunch of helpful ideas and advice, but I left them out in the sun and they spoiled, so I had to take them to the info dump.
(had to get that out of my brain; feel much better now)

I may have said this before: info-dumps are in the eye of the beholder, but in the hands of the author. A passage that one reader says is fascinating portraiture, another will label info-dump. Write what you need to write. The first test will be your own eyes. If it feels dumpy to you, it probably is. Fix it.

If it passes your own editorial eye, give the work to other readers. If most of them come back and complain about the same passage(s), you should probably listen. Chances are, now that you've had some time away from the manuscript, you'll see the dumpy parts too.

Then send the work to agents or to your professional editor. Listen to them, though you do not always need to obey them.

But, whatever you do, don't let worrying about this stop you from doing. Write first, fret later.


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## TheKillerBs (Mar 31, 2016)

Devouring Wolf said:


> Or you can have someone do something incorrectly. Like having someone botch a magic spell when everyone knows you're supposed to say the incantation and then wave your wand in a figure-eight or something like that.



When I read this, my mind immediately jumped to the Wingardium Leviosa scene from Harry Potter. It's a pretty memorable scene and I'm reasonably sure most Harry Potter readers remember "Swish and flick!" and "It's Wing-GAR-dium Levi-O-sa, make the 'gar' sound nice and long."

There's other spells that get shown multiple times, including the teaching, and none of them stick out as much as the the simple, first-year Levitation charm. Not to me, at least, and I know exactly why. They didn't have a scene that stood out as well as that dialogue between Ron and Hermione.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Mar 31, 2016)

TheKillerBs said:


> When I read this, my mind immediately jumped to the Wingardium Leviosa scene from Harry Potter. It's a pretty memorable scene and I'm reasonably sure most Harry Potter readers remember "Swish and flick!" and "It's Wing-GAR-dium Levi-O-sa, make the 'gar' sound nice and long."
> 
> There's other spells that get shown multiple times, including the teaching, and none of them stick out as much as the the simple, first-year Levitation charm. Not to me, at least, and I know exactly why. They didn't have a scene that stood out as well as that dialogue between Ron and Hermione.



Ron is still miffed that it's " Levi-oh-sa not levioh-saaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh."


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## Mythopoet (Mar 31, 2016)

I WILL DEFEND FOREVER MY LOVE OF INFO DUMPS.

There's almost nothing I like more than a long passage that really digs into worldbuilding in a way that helps immerse me in the story world. I will never forget how I felt when I first read the chapter "A Shadow of the Past" from LOTR, which is mostly a long info dump about the Ring. I was chilled and thrilled and totally sucked into and swept away by it. Same for the Council of Elrond scene. LOTR is still one of the best fantasy books out there at least in part because of its willingness to actually tell you things rather than playing coy and vague. 

I strongly believe that there is nothing wrong with info dumps. But info dumps are like any tool, you have to use them the right way and at the right time. There are people who don't like info dumps and they seem to have convinced the majority of writers that info dumps are just a bad thing. But I like a well written info dump and I'm sure there are others who do as well. Don't let the so called experts tell you how to write a story. Do whatever the story needs you to do and whatever your voice wants you to do.


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## AJ Stevens (Mar 31, 2016)

I'm not against them, but like many others, I think they need to be used wisely. I believe the best way to utilise them is to build up some mystery and intrigue around a certain topic or character, leading to a number of questions the reader would love to have answered. At that point, the info dump can easily become the best part of the book.


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## Deleted member 4265 (Mar 31, 2016)

Mythopoet said:


> I strongly believe that there is nothing wrong with info dumps. But info dumps are like any tool, you have to use them the right way and at the right time. There are people who don't like info dumps and they seem to have convinced the majority of writers that info dumps are just a bad thing. But I like a well written info dump and I'm sure there are others who do as well. Don't let the so called experts tell you how to write a story. Do whatever the story needs you to do and whatever your voice wants you to do.



I think there's a good point to this. The difference between 'info-dumps' and good descriptive world-building is really mostly skill-level. So I don't think writers should be afraid to use them, because if you don't practice something, how can you improve your skill?


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## thedarknessrising (Mar 31, 2016)

Mythopoet said:


> I WILL DEFEND FOREVER MY LOVE OF INFO DUMPS.
> 
> There's almost nothing I like more than a long passage that really digs into worldbuilding in a way that helps immerse me in the story world. I will never forget how I felt when I first read the chapter "A Shadow of the Past" from LOTR, which is mostly a long info dump about the Ring. I was chilled and thrilled and totally sucked into and swept away by it. Same for the Council of Elrond scene. LOTR is still one of the best fantasy books out there at least in part because of its willingness to actually tell you things rather than playing coy and vague.
> 
> I strongly believe that there is nothing wrong with info dumps. But info dumps are like any tool, you have to use them the right way and at the right time. There are people who don't like info dumps and they seem to have convinced the majority of writers that info dumps are just a bad thing. But I like a well written info dump and I'm sure there are others who do as well. Don't let the so called experts tell you how to write a story. Do whatever the story needs you to do and whatever your voice wants you to do.



I'm glad someone referenced _Fellowship of the Ring_, because I was going to.

My current story starts off with a three day elvish festival that celebrates the coming of spring. Each day focuses on a different aspect. Day one is centered around the history of the elves. Day two is a day of worship and sacrifice to the gods. And day three, the day spring actually arrives, is filled with music, dancing, plays, etc. 

Now, there's going to be a lot of lore involved, especially in regards to day one. The problem I faced is how do I best go about telling the reader of the details? Do I just convey them as the narrator? But then I remembered The Council of Elrond. Both Aragorn and Gandalf go on long winded tangents about the ring and Gollum, and that conveyed all the information just fine. And you do make a point with Shadow of the Past as well. Gandalf again went on a long tirade about the ring and its history. Golly, that Gandalf never knows when to stop talking, does he? 

I've basically decided that I'm just going to have a single elf recount the tale in one long info dump. (Then again, this story is basically for my own pleasure, and not really intended for anyone else to read, so does it really even matter? )


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## Garren Jacobsen (Mar 31, 2016)

Hmm, I don't think the LOTR examples are "info dump." While they do convey a lot of information it is done in an engaging way that is not a dump, but rather a feast. There are other factors to consider when putting in a lot of world building. The ultimate goal is to make the building engaging. That is done by character reaction and other methods of illiciting a positive reader respose. An info dump is just an example of poorly done world building that is long and uninteresting. I believe the second prong of my info dump test is more important than the first. If an info dump is long but interesting it is a feast.


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## Mythopoet (Apr 1, 2016)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> Hmm, I don't think the LOTR examples are "info dump." While they do convey a lot of information it is done in an engaging way that is not a dump, but rather a feast.



Having just recently reread A Shadow of the Past I think it would definitely fall under the definition of what people call an "info dump". But the fact that it feels like a feast rather than a dump is precisely my point. "Info dump" is just a derogatory term that doesn't really mean anything. Whether a huge chunk of information delivered through the story feels like a feast or a dump is entirely in the hands of the author and the mind of the reader and has nothing to do with the nature of of "info dumping" at all. 

Of course there are plenty of people who do feel that Fellowship of the Ring is boring and do not enjoy the "info dumps" at all. Yet it is still a beloved classic. So who is right and who is wrong? THe people who love the info dumps in LOTR or the people who hate them? Neither of course. Because everything about storytelling is subjective. Both opinions are valid. But think about if Tolkien tried to write LOTR by abiding by the "writing rules" commonly agreed upon today. It would be a totally different book. Not one that I would enjoy at all. And almost certainly not the beloved classic that it is.


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## Miskatonic (Apr 1, 2016)

Mythopoet said:


> Having just recently reread A Shadow of the Past I think it would definitely fall under the definition of what people call an "info dump". But the fact that it feels like a feast rather than a dump is precisely my point. "Info dump" is just a derogatory term that doesn't really mean anything. Whether a huge chunk of information delivered through the story feels like a feast or a dump is entirely in the hands of the author and the mind of the reader and has nothing to do with the nature of of "info dumping" at all.
> 
> Of course there are plenty of people who do feel that Fellowship of the Ring is boring and do not enjoy the "info dumps" at all. Yet it is still a beloved classic. So who is right and who is wrong? THe people who love the info dumps in LOTR or the people who hate them? Neither of course. Because everything about storytelling is subjective. Both opinions are valid. But think about if Tolkien tried to write LOTR by abiding by the "writing rules" commonly agreed upon today. It would be a totally different book. Not one that I would enjoy at all. And almost certainly not the beloved classic that it is.



If people get bored with LOTR, a book that's just a shade over 1,000 pages and tells a sweeping epic of a story, I can't imagine what would happen if they tried to read ASOIAF or WOT where you have books that are 4x as long as LOTR and don't tell the entire story.


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## Mythopoet (Apr 1, 2016)

Miskatonic said:


> If people get bored with LOTR, a book that's just a shade over 1,000 pages and tells a sweeping epic of a story, I can't imagine what would happen if they tried to read ASOIAF or WOT where you have books that are 4x as long as LOTR and don't tell the entire story.



It doesn't have anything to do with how long the story is, but with how it's written. A lot of people don't like the way Tolkien wrote. They find his prose boring and the pacing of much of FOTR tedious. And that's fine. It would be truly boring if all books were written the same way and only appealed to a specific type of person, which, alas, seems to be exactly what most "writing rules" are designed to accomplish and thus why I reject them.


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## Penpilot (Apr 1, 2016)

Miskatonic said:


> If people get bored with LOTR, a book that's just a shade over 1,000 pages and tells a sweeping epic of a story, I can't imagine what would happen if they tried to read ASOIAF or WOT where you have books that are 4x as long as LOTR and don't tell the entire story.



What one person finds boring another finds fascinating. For myself, I find that enjoying books like LOTR and ASOIAF come down to the reader's willingness to give the stories a chance and work past the steeper entry curve.

For ASOIAF, I started the first book then stopped because it wasn't clicking with me. But it was highly recommended by a friend who doesn't stand for BS books, so I gave it a second go and was rewarded for my effort. 

There are easy entry books and there are difficult entry books. I find that difficult entry books tend to have what many would call info dumps because it's the most concise--not necessarily the most effective--way to set up an already very long story. But if set up right and if done with enough skill, it'll blend in naturally with the narrative style.


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## Miskatonic (Apr 1, 2016)

The only part of The Fellowship of the Ring that annoyed me was how long the very beginning was drawn out before Frodo left for Bree. Tolkien's style read smoothly enough for me.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 1, 2016)

My favorite book ever, The Lies of Locke Lamora, starts out with a brief scene (about 3 pages) of two men talking, making a deal to buy a boy no one wants, and then the next chapter opens with, "On the night Locke Lamora came to live under the...blah blah blah...and it's just a huge amount of backstory, but it's all great. There's nothing wrong with stepping back and being a narrator at points, even at the beginning, but the thing is, it has to be pertinent, set a tone for the book, and have a reason why the information needs to be presented there and then, rather than doled out. And in this case, it works really well for me. however, I've read a lot of openings to first drafts, and they begin with less important details all grouped together for the writer's convenience. That's not the same thing. Most readers don't need a backstory to enjoy a character. If you can give them a few details, that's enough to get them interested. Then the information can come on stronger later, when it's pertinent to the story. 

With world-building, history of the world, etc. kinds of issues, I feel like you either need to do the narrator, or work it in smooth in character interactions or elsewhere, because it's hard to keep popping back to a narrator to get another dose of info. However, trying it out and seeing what works best is great. I have often had tiny bits of information I needed a reader to have, and o I began writing quotes in the beginnings of chapters. That's worked out really great for me because it gives me just a moment at the beginning of each chapter to set a tone or relay some information as a narrator, and likewise, it communicates what bit of pertinent information a reader needs to make sense of the coming chapter, hinting at what's important.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Apr 1, 2016)

There's only one true rule to writing, and it applies to exposition as much as anything else.

RULE:
You can do anything if it's interesting.


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## Heliotrope (Apr 1, 2016)

T Allan I want to thanks you a thousand times.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Apr 1, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> T Allan I want to thanks you a thousand times.


It's not my original thought, but you're welcome.


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## Mythopoet (Apr 1, 2016)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> There's only one true rule to writing, and it applies to exposition as much as anything else.
> 
> RULE:
> You can do anything if it's interesting.



Yes. This is exactly right.


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## Terry Greer (Apr 6, 2016)

Info dumps aren't bad in themselves.
The main problem is putting them in when there's action either happening or just about to happen. If something is about to kick off I'm impatient to know what happens - I don't want to read detail on why its about to go pear shaped - I want the action to flow quickly. After all that's what action does.
Info dumps should only occur when the pacing allows for it, e.g. after the action explaining why something attacked. Or as part of an anecdote or disguised in some way as joke or saying. 
You can also always (as Tolkien often did) write an appendix with the details, and then just allude to it with the most important facts in the main story.

use them carefully.


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## Entrisen (Apr 13, 2016)

I like the idea of learning about the world through in-book books, or songs or stories told by other characters, as long as it's not overly long and complicated. As a reader I get really annoyed when I'm forced to read information about the world that I could care less about


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## Bruce McKnight (Apr 18, 2016)

It's a tough subject and it's hard to get readers up to speed without being overt. Like thedarknessrising said, you don't want to play coy - that get's even more annoying than just listing everything out in bullet points. It can be done well, though, because Caged Maiden made me go pull out Lies of LL again and it was so well done I didn't even think of it as an infodump when I first read it, thus proving T.Allen.Smith's rule.

My favorite approach, though, is full immersion, when the author trusts and challenges me as a reader to figure it out. I read this advice in a couple places, but it took me a long time to believe it. Then I started to notice it when I was reading and I realized that the more subtle it was, the harder I had to work, the more I liked it. I'm sure it would be very easy to take this too far, but editors and beta readers should be able to sniff that out pretty easily.

I compare it to full immersion when going to a foreign country. It was pretty easy to figure out what the connotation on "tosser" was and, even though it took me a while, I figured out what "bangers and mash" was without Google.


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