# GoT S7 Spoilerfest!



## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 7, 2017)

Here's a GoT thread for anyone who wants to discuss any S7 episode that has already aired. Anything that's been published is fair game, no spoiler tags needed.

Obviously, don't discuss anything from a future episode/book that's been leaked. Because leaks are lame, and leakers are lamer.


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## Holman (Aug 7, 2017)

Given the different time zones that everyone is in and the ability to watch online from other countries - is it safe to assume that Episode 4 is open for discussion?

In which case - is it better to drown or be burnt to death by dragon flame?


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 7, 2017)

Yes.

Fire's faster. Drowning would give to time to think, the hell, Bronn? I was trying to go down in a blaze of glory, not drown in my armor like a chump!


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## Holman (Aug 7, 2017)

******************** SPOILER ALERT ***************** SPOILER ALERT ************** SPOILER ALERT ************



Legendary Sidekick said:


> Yes.
> Fire's faster. Drowning would give to time to think, the hell, Bronn? I was trying to go down in a blaze of glory, not drown in my armor like a chump!



Exactly my thoughts - just a thought - given the activity stream shows the first part of the post - should there be a standard lead in to stop people catching sight of the spoiler - similar to the above?


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## FifthView (Aug 7, 2017)

Episode 4 was the best this season and surely in the top 5 for the show's whole run, although I think it also has the benefit of coming after that whole run. Arya v Brienne was pure bliss for me but has the benefit of coming after long character buildups.

I'm trying to decide if Jaime is going to be pulled out by Daenerys' forces and become a prisoner. This could work great for the plot. I could picture some kind of negotiation for his release—and Cersei declining, with Euron standing beside her with a smirk. This sets up Jaime's turn to Daenerys' side and/or the eventual prophecy-fulfilling murder of Cersei by Jaime. (I'm seeing the repetition of the Tyrion & Shae betrayal; i.e., hell hath no fury like a Lannister man betrayed in love.) But this is pure speculation running through my head.

The great thing now happening with the show: We have favorite characters on all sides and the tension of seeing them fight each other, with life and death in the balance.


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## Ban (Aug 7, 2017)

.................................................................................................................................................................................................Only thing I have to say about it is that Jaime better stay alive... Well that and the battle scene was wonderful. Go Bronn! I would have never thought that I would ever actually want one of the dragons to die.


(Edit: I added the dots so people wouldn't get spoiled by the activity thread.


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## FifthView (Aug 7, 2017)

It's not that I _wanted_ him to die.........

....but I'd've been perfectly fine if he had. His time seems nearly over....................... 

Bronn belongs in the group of characters whose time has come, or whose significance is fading fast. There's just not much character arc left. I'd put Varys in that group as well.

My guess for next big character to die? LF.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 7, 2017)

No way Jaime will die (yet), or why bother shoving him from fire to water? I also was rooting for him and Bronn to die, and I was surprised by that. I thought I wouldn't be able to pick a side, but I did. I wanted Bronn and Jaime to buy it, and I knew they wouldn't but I also knew it would satisfy me in the heat of the moment. (Not a pun 'cause they _didn't_ burn, dammit.)

LF… what is my deal? I really can't do initials. I'm having flashbacks of not knowing what LOL meant when it was new. I still pronounce it /lawl/. LF. Uh… Larry Fine. My brain is stuck on Larry Fine for some reason, and I can't think of an alternative.

OH! Little Finger!!! Ha! Take that, brain!


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 7, 2017)

Daenerys' battle tactics were horrid, I couldn't help grumbling about the missed opportunity and wasted Dothraki lives... but a helluva battle scene! 

Seriously, the horde screams, the Lannisters line up in a big row (predictably) and the dragon comes from on high right down that row instead of breachinga single hole, much like they did later in the battle. 

And I was rooting for the dragon all the way, I love Jaime's character arc and well, Bronn is Bronn, but them or a dragon? I'm on the dragon's side.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 7, 2017)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Daenerys' battle tactics were horrid, I couldn't help grumbling about the missed opportunity and wasted Dothraki lives... but a helluva battle scene!


At first I thought the galloping horde was just for show and the dragon would fly ahead and lay waste to the enemy. That _sort of_ happened, but yeah... less exciting charges and more dragon exhalation at the tightly-packed men would have lowered Dothraki casualties to the 0-99 range.

I guess the options were:

PLAN A - Don't die.
PLAN B - Look cool.

And the Dothraki horde yelled, "RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!" and did whatever the hell they wanted.


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## ChasingSuns (Aug 8, 2017)

FifthView said:


> Episode 4 was the best this season and surely in the top 5 for the show's whole run, although I think it also has the benefit of coming after that whole run. Arya v Brienne was pure bliss for me but has the benefit of coming after long character buildups.
> 
> I'm trying to decide if Jaime is going to be pulled out by Daenerys' forces and become a prisoner. This could work great for the plot. I could picture some kind of negotiation for his release—and Cersei declining, with Euron standing beside her with a smirk. This sets up Jaime's turn to Daenerys' side and/or the eventual prophecy-fulfilling murder of Cersei by Jaime. (I'm seeing the repetition of the Tyrion & Shae betrayal; i.e., hell hath no fury like a Lannister man betrayed in love.) But this is pure speculation running through my head.
> 
> The great thing now happening with the show: We have favorite characters on all sides and the tension of seeing them fight each other, with life and death in the balance.



This is my guess. It could also lead to a cool scene where Tyrion visits Jaime in a cell, just like Jaime visited him after Joffrey's death. After all, they do love doing callbacks to previous scenes.


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## Rkcapps (Aug 8, 2017)

I think best scene EVER, yes, lots of satisfying scenes have been come and gone. They shocked us (like Jon Snow's death or Joffery's death) but we've seen these dragons grow and finally we witnessed their power UNLEASHED and boy was it unleashed! Brilliant filming. Very nicely handled by all involved.

I like the symmetry of, potentially, Tryion visiting Jamie in a cell. But one of the great things about GOT is that it surprises us! 

Great idea starting this thread, love the discussion. I wonder if this is a sign of what's to come? Could the dragons be the key to fighting the Whitewalkers?


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 8, 2017)

I actually am glad the dragon was shot and survived. A shot to the head would have been too easy too soon. Even the ultimate dragonslaying weapon shouldn't slay a dragon with ease.

That said, it's not lost on me that the Mountain also survived a spear but not the poison, and that Qyburn is a poison expert, and the dragonslaying weapon is called a "scorpion" and not a "ballista." So who knows what shitstorm awaits when Jaime is dragged from the water?


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## FifthView (Aug 8, 2017)

.......................................

......................................

...................................... Spoiler Heading Heh.

Shooting the dragon was a clever bit of twerking for the coming episodes. It not only shows the vulnerability of Daenerys' "smash 'em with a hammer" strategizing, but it will build tension in future battles between her forces and Cersei's. Plus, it puts the goings-on up North in jeopardy, since dragons killed could hurt the effort to defend and defeat the Night King.

Speaking of Cersei's forces...this episode's losses added to the losses in Casterly Rock will be a significant dent. However, this does set up the influx of Braavosi soldiers.

I wonder if Jon will castigate Daenerys for destroying all that grain. In the same episode, and even the previous episode I think, Sansa's fretting about food stores for the north. Plus, Daenerys herself lamented the loss of access to the Tyrell food stores in this episode, fretting about feeding her army. I'm curious if she'll be forced to send the Dothraki on pillaging missions, just to keep her army fed, especially as winter continues to move in.

This episode's three best lines:

Bran: "Chaos is a ladder."

Arya: "No one."

Tyrion calling Jaime an idiot three times.

Best overall speech: Jon telling Daenerys what she needed to hear. I especially loved this moment because it shows him supplanting her previous advisers. I keep having this niggling worry that Tyrion is having doubts about continuing in her service. If his brother is taken captive and Daenerys is forced to become even more violent (imagine!), I wonder if Tyrion has it in him to betray her or leave her service.


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## Rkcapps (Aug 8, 2017)

I loved that "no one" line too. My favourite. Masterful.


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## FifthView (Aug 8, 2017)

Did anyone else catch the major continuity error?

Hint: He's on his horse, now he isn't, now he is again.

I'm assuming the fight was originally longer but was cut in editing.

Edit: OR, it was filmed two ways, one where he's mounted and another when he's on his feet, then spliced together.....I didn't catch it the first time around. It goes fast. But I've watched so many reaction videos on YouTube, I finally saw it.

I'm kinda addicted to this episode.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 8, 2017)

Holman said:


> ******************** SPOILER ALERT ***************** SPOILER ALERT ************** SPOILER ALERT ************
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly my thoughts - just a thought - given the activity stream shows the first part of the post - should there be a standard lead in to stop people catching sight of the spoiler - similar to the above?


Huh. That's actually a good idea.

I won't go so far as to make an official rule that any of us (including me) might break unintentionally. But I guess do your best to choose your first words carefully. Like "Joff died! Holy crap!" would not be a good opening line for a post at 10:01 PM EST on the night the purple wedding aired, for example.

Oh... and I also glossed over what's fair game, so let me tell you what I consider fair: After an episode airs on HBO, feel free to post about it. I always watch the 11:30 EST showing, so I will steer clear of this thread from 9:00 to 12:30 on Sunday nights.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 14, 2017)

This was the moving-the-chess-pieces episode.

^Not a complaint.

I think the show's creators (who I've criticized quite heavily in past seasons, especially S5) are at the top of their game this season. Even an episode like this, full of build up for upcoming epicness, had a lot of fun bits. The father and son BBQ wasn't hammer-to-the-face satisfaction, but our favorite Tarley rage-quitting the citadel... loved the whole scene. The uselessness of the old men, Gilly correcting Sam ("Steps."), tossing the book to the kid.

@5th, I guess LF will annoy us a bit before he buys it? Instigating sibling rivalry between sisters. What a dick! As a father of daughters, I look forward to your prediction happening, whenever that might be. Death by Needle, I hope. (Capital N so you know I mean Arya's sword, not lethal injection.)


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## FifthView (Aug 14, 2017)

Yeah, another setup episode.

The only complaint I have is the existence of teleportation in this season, hah. We don't know how often events in different areas are happening concurrently, because we'll have long, drawn out scenes in one location and when those characters reappear for another scene, they are several days' journey elsewhere. (Jon, this episode.) This could mean that one drawn-out scene involving other characters, in between, is happening concurrently with that first scene or concurrently with the time/space leaped scene that follows.

@LS: Well, my semi-prediction of Jaime's fate was wrong. I was momentarily disappointed to see the air let out of the balloon when he appeared safe-and-sound away from any enemy forces.

The thing I'm trying to decide about LF is whether Arya & siblings are really onto him, or if he's successfully going to manipulate them. Today's guess is that Bran's existence puts things on the side of the Stark kids. There was an early scene in the last episode where LF was shown and a raven/crow was cawing, and I think that maybe that was a hint that Bran's been keeping tabs on LF.

One thing the show's creators are able to do with these set-up scenes is to maintain tension. All that Arya/LF stuff is frustrating for me personally. I want her to just kill him. But these little movements of the chess pieces that create that frustration are creating tension; no need for massive battles every episode.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 14, 2017)

I try not to think of the movement as teleportation, so much as the show glosses over the passing of days/weeks/months between episodes. Of course it does come off that way. My wife asked, "How did Jaime get back?" I guess the answer to her question is that the story of how Jaime traveled back to King's Landing was too boring to tell, so we skip two weeks of trudging along the road with his golden thumb out to passing wagons (and Bronn lifting a pant leg when they get desperate).

Yes, tension can be frustrating. Arya. You know he's a jerk. Kill him. I do hope she's not stupid enough to think that Sansa's note means what Little Finger wants her to think it means. It might be a note with a male pronoun referring to Ramsey Bolton, not John Snow. Just a guess, since I imagine Arya would know Sansa's handwriting, so whatever the note says, it's really written by Sansa.

You make a good point about Bran's ability to resolve whatever sisterly squabble might ensue. (Again, speaking as a father of daughters, I @#$%ing hate it when sisterly squabbles ensue!)


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## Rkcapps (Aug 14, 2017)

The "teleportation" thing is jarring but I see why it's done so I'll accept it.

I loved the hint and sudden distraction about Jon's true parentage. What a great technique! And Jon's ability to pat the dragon is another hint, I sense. I feel like a bomb's going to drop about Jon's true identity soon. Can't wait!

I missed that continuity error, I'll have to watch again. Now that's not a wasted hour!


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## FifthView (Aug 15, 2017)

I understand the teleportation thing, so I'm just rolling with it.

The continuity error might not be a continuity error. In episode 4, the bit where Jaime is fighting the Dothraki may have been filmed with them (and Dickon) standing on the ground but was meant to be seen as if they are still on their horses. The movement of their bodies and the fighters in the background give it away for me.

Let's talk about the elephant in the room in episode 5.

Jon and company only need proof, an example, of the undead. Simplest solution would be to kill any living enemy, or a condemned criminal, and wait for that enemy to "turn." This would be FAR easier than trying to hunt down one of the undead in the Night King's army. They could probably even stay in Eastwatch, or just outside the Wall, to accomplish this. But it wouldn't be as dramatic, and we wouldn't have the anticipation of seeing Westeros' A-Team going out to fight the Night King's forces.

That said, I'd not be entirely surprised if this turns out to be what happens. During the fighting, one of their own is killed, and that's the only body they are able to take back with them. Jorah as undead? Gendry? Davos? Heh.


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## Rkcapps (Aug 15, 2017)

Fifthview - You're too right, they could do that but we'd miss the confrontation! Where would we be without the conflict?


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## Ban (Aug 16, 2017)

.......................................................

I think Jon is trying to find one of the white walkers to bring to Cersei. Those guys can only be found up north. A regular zombie fellow probably would not convince Cersei, because those all look like half-decayed humans. I also don't think people stay undead unless they are relatively close to one of the white walkers, so a regular undead mook would have become a normal corpse again by the time Jon and the gang (his awesome gang) are at King's Landing.


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## Rkcapps (Aug 17, 2017)

I've seen ep 6, anyone else? I don't want to say anything until you guys have seen it ...


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 17, 2017)

Technically, only 5 episodes have been released. Please hold out until Sunday the 20th @ 9pm EST. That's when the episode first airs on HBO.

Thanks!


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 18, 2017)

Yeah, unless you include Ser Gregor as undead... Cersei has her own evidence, heh heh, I don't think it's easy to simply kill someone and have them go all Sinatra (ol' blue eyes) on you. I don't think the magic mechanism is all that defined, but seems the Others have more than a bit to do with that. 

And there's plenty of specimens to choose from! They come in all shapes and sizes. And heck, if the wall breaks you just bring back a Stark... how fun would that be? 

Benjen Stark vs the Mountain, a to the death (again) cage match. That's a fight I'd pay to see, LOL.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 21, 2017)

Okay... safe to talk about ep.6 now.

I'll start.





Holy shit!


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## Rkcapps (Aug 21, 2017)

Where did a dead army find ship like chains in a winter wasteland? Like the drive behind that scene though. Loved the way Jon's party interacted - plots merging! Saw the turning of a dragon coming. Need to have another level of difficulty for Jon and Dani's army.

And I know Dani likes Jon and all but shouldn't she be a little bit miffed he cost her a dragon?

I'm going to go out on a limb - Littlefinger is going to turn Winterfell against Sansa and Arya will save her. Well, I'd like to see that happen!


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## FifthView (Aug 21, 2017)

..........................Spoiler Spacing..............................
..........................Spoiler Spacing..............................



Rkcapps said:


> And I know Dani likes Jon and all but shouldn't she be a little bit miffed he cost her a dragon?



I watched some reaction vids on YouTube, and I was surprised that a few had the same thought, blaming the writers for sloppy writing and/or blaming Jon.

I just don't get it.

Jon didn't cost her the dragon. She did herself, opposing Tyrion.

Or the Night King did.

It's war. Bleep happens.

So I don't get why she or we should blame Jon just a little or a lot.




> I'm going to go out on a limb - Littlefinger is going to turn Winterfell against Sansa and Arya will save her. Well, I'd like to see that happen!



For me, the Winterfell events are indeterminate. Or is that _indeterminable?_

I'm guessing that, judging by the way the producers like to play with things, Arya's going to win–with the help of Bran. Bran has been suspiciously off screen, and going with an Arya loss seems far too on the nose, too overt a "foreshadowing" to really be foreshadowing of an Arya loss. Keeping Bran off screen shows the producers' hand, I think.

BUT. We still haven't resolved the Nymeria thing, so I wonder if Arya might be forced to leave Winterfell, perhaps chased, and her wolf and its pack intercede on her behalf. I doubt this; but, who knows?

All it takes is for Bran to casually mention, during a charged assembly, that Littlefinger shoved Lysa Arryn out the Moon Door–and that Sansa was there. Poor little Robin snaps, the lords of the Vale snap, and that's it for Sansa's ambitions and Littlefinger's life. Littlefinger might escape momentarily until Arya runs him through.

Here's my long shot prediction, and it's funky, probably too ridiculous to be mentioned...but something I might do were I in charge of the show. Sansa becomes the Night Queen.  Yep. I think that the foreshadowing of Sansa's long-held, long-cherished desire to be a queen next to a king, mentioned in this episode and pretty much her singular desire in the earlier seasons, could act as foreshadowing if the producers wanted to go there.  Night King breaks through the wall w/ the dragon, and somehow Sansa falls victim to him. 

Maybe she is chased out by Arya/Bran/Vale/Whatever, and that's how she ends up in the Night King's path. Or maybe she chases Arya and Bran out, and the Night King attacks Winterfell.

For me, this would bring Sansa's perpetual foolishness to an end. She's more focused on Cersei, seems to have little problem contemplating betraying Jon and taking Winterfell for herself–all justified through rationalization, and all this could leave her utterly surprised by the appearance of the Night King. Heck, he could just ride in on his dragon and take her then.

(There's a niggling curiosity about the possibility of Cersei becoming the Night Queen, instead, further down the road. That would be just like the writers to have her prophesied death come to pass but then to have her raised by the Night King as his bride. Heh. Too many possibilities, and thus too many wild speculations. Stay tuned.)


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 21, 2017)

I have one thought on the Sansa-Brienne interaction: Sansa's playing Little Finger. She sought him with the truth to see his reaction, which is that Brienne is honor-bound to intercede. Next scene, she sends Brienne away, trusting that Jaime Lannister would see Brienne safe.

The interesting part is I believe Sansa trusts Jaime Lannister with Brienne's life more than she trusts her own sister. I don't believe Arya's the better fighter, but that Arya vs. Brienne is a dead Brienne since Brienne would attempt to subdue and Arya's already proven to be quick to go for the throat. But then, Arya's handed her sister the knife after the creepy speech, so who knows?



I liked that you could see the dragon death coming. You had time to contemplate those spears. I realized it before the dragons were there, then thought "uh-oh."

Then I got too caught up in the beauty of dragons blowing up zombies to feel scared... and, oh, right, those spears. They're throwable. Splat!

Watching the dragon die was like watching a bird flop along the highway in my rear view mirror. It's a dramatic fall that takes so long all you can do is feel awful and say, "I saw your death coming, but there was nothing I could do. Sorry."


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## T.Allen.Smith (Aug 21, 2017)

FifthView said:


> Sansa becomes the Night Queen.


There's a theory regarding the Night King's origin story (one I think highly likely at this point) that would argue against this.

I don't know how "spoilery" we really want to get in this spoiler fest though. For those that don't care about a possible early reveal of the biggest OMG moment in the series, you can find it online with minimal direction that I'm happy to provide through PM. 

If this truly is an all-out spoilerfest, I can elaborate.


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## FifthView (Aug 21, 2017)

...........................spoiler heading............................
...........................spoiler heading............................



T.Allen.Smith said:


> There's a theory regarding the Night King's origin story (one I think highly likely at this point) that would argue against this.
> 
> I don't know how "spoilery" we really want to get in this spoiler fest though. For those that don't care about a possible early reveal of the biggest OMG moment in the series, you can find it online with minimal direction that I'm happy to provide through PM.
> 
> If this truly is an all-out spoilerfest, I can elaborate.



I've read that theory and I hope it's not true. I'm hoping that 



Spoiler: person



said character


 turns out to be 



Spoiler: icon



The Lord of Light instead,


 after 



Spoiler: cause



trying to warg into a dragon's head.



...or something along those lines.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Aug 21, 2017)

FifthView said:


> I've read that theory and I hope it's not true.


The theory could be wrong, but there are some recent YouTube breakdowns, with scenes & symbols, that make for a compelling case.


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 21, 2017)

Blaming Jon... well, he goes into a manly fit of killing the dead thinking he's invincible with dragons at his back instead of just jumping onboard and getting the hell out like a smart guy. Blaming him would be harsh, blame the writers, after all. It was painfully obvious that a dragon was going to buy it way too early, which is on the writers/directors/editors, whomever. 

Giant chains from nowhere... doesn't everybody pack a set in the trunk of their wagon... wagons... how many wagons they need to haul those damned things anyhow?

My one problem right now is that there is a whole lot of dumb going on in order force everything the writers want done. We need a dragon hurt to show it can be done, insert weak dragon tactics here, we need a reason to get a dragon north, now we need the dragon tactics to be weak again so one dies to be the cool blue-eyed dragon... Just a few examples. Part of this can be blamed on the crappy decision to shorten the seasons in episode count, and of course, part can be put square on GRRM's shoulders for not getting his damned books done in time, LOL. The hand of god... I mean the writers... is becoming more and more obvious.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Aug 21, 2017)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Giant chains from nowhere...



We don't really know how much time elapsed from when the dragon was killed to when they got the chains and pulled it from the lake, do we?  Could've been weeks.

My biggest issue was BenJen Stark showing up out of nowhere. How long has it been since he's been a player? And all of a sudden, he's there swinging fire and sending Jon to safety.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 21, 2017)

Demesnedenoir said:


> The hand of god... I mean the writers... is becoming more and more obvious.


I was harshly critical of the show in season 5 due to deviations and villains having video-game-endboss powers.

I think part of the reason I'm enjoying this season is that I'm just taking the ride and not worrying about realism, consistency of character, etc. Basically, this was me last night:


ME: "Wheeeeeeeee! Fire and water and dead zombies are pretty!"

MY BRAIN: "Didn't any of the remaining good guys notice the wights with really long ice-spears that resemble scorpion-spears? I mean, YOU did, and you're not a war expert like those guys on TV."

ME: "No, but I play one in RPGs."

MY BRAIN: "Yeah, whatever. My point is somebody should say something like, hey, Dany. I think those ice-spears are like scorpion-spears, only more likely to actually work."

ME: "Shut up, brain."

MY BRAIN: "...."

ME: "Wheeeee—uh?! O-o-ohhh. Poor dragon."


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 22, 2017)

Benjen is just another example. The whole Jon is toast this time thing is getting old for even the writers, hence his quick recovery this time, why bother. LOL. One can only hope the real Benjen story is better. The deaths now feel more like tying up loose ends and cutting cast costs than story.

The chains wll give me a chuckle, no matter what time passed. Too many conveniences lining up, not that it will make not enjoy the show. And it makes me look more forward to the real story.



T.Allen.Smith said:


> We don't really know how much time elapsed from when the dragon was killed to when they got the chains and pulled it from the lake, do we?  Could've been weeks.
> 
> My biggest issue was BenJen Stark showing up out of nowhere. How long has it been since he's been a player? And all of a sudden, he's there swinging fire and sending Jon to safety.


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## FifthView (Aug 22, 2017)

The Night King has been around for thousands of years....right? Well, I didn't notice the chains issue at the time, and it's probably because I associate the Night King with unbounded potential. We haven't been shown a weakness yet, unless you include Valyrian steel and dragonglass. (I'm a little uncertain about the dragon glass, given that's how he was created in the first place.) So chains appearing from nowhere? We haven't seen the "where," which could have been at any point in the last thousand years. Maybe he's been planning, and the original plan was to have his giants use those chains to pull down the various gates on the wall. Or maybe he meant to use the chains for climbing the wall.  Whatever.

The only great problem I had with this episode was the teleportation thing again. Apparently Danaerys can be anywhere in Westeros in about 8 hours' time. Check a map; Dragonstone's actually far from north of the wall. Even assuming the dragons can fly at great speed, I'd still have to question how fast a raven can fly. I found a Reddit thread in which someone calculated it, and I'm sure there are other calculations, so.... It would be about 4 days combined of travel time, according to that calculation. 

Lets assume that's an accurate calculation. We then have to assume that Jon & Co. were on that island for 4 days, minimum. In theory, this is possible, since we are given no concrete measure of the passage of time on that island other than going from night to day. But this is the problem. Were they on the island that long? The creators of the show entirely missed that opportunity, if so, of showing the passage of 4 days and the effects that'd have on the group. But it's filmed to "maintain tension." (One would think the writers of the episode have that tacked on their wall, engraved: MAINTAIN TENSION.) And this presents a problem when you have our band of uber-heroes trapped on an island for 4 days. So the writers just skipped over that part and gave us a sense of immediacy, barely a night passing.


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## Penpilot (Aug 22, 2017)

Spoilery stuff ahead with spoilery speculation.








I didn't have an issue with the chains. I mean you have an entity that can raise an army of the dead. Somehow I don't think it's beyond belief that he could scrounge up some chains. I don't remember if this was just in the books or not, but weren't the wildlings  cornered up against a bay and the Night's Watch sailed up with boats to rescue them?

If there's a bay, I think you could reasonably assume there could be sunken boats there and that's where they got the chains. But even without the chains, the Night King could have just dove into the water to touch the dragon. The chains, to me, are just for dramatic effect.

I wasn't bugged by the teleportation, but I sure did notice it. And it made me go a bit squinty-eyed. I think this is where time constraints are digging into the flow. I think all it would have taken was something like a quick establishing shot or scene showing the passage of time to fix those things, but that stuff probably ended up on the cutting room floor.

As for Sansa, I suspect she's playing the game of thrones and is playing Little Finger, or at the very least she has to catch on quick enough. To me that fits her arc. She's stupid, she gets smart, and then she gets cunning. It fits with all the surviving Stark children rising to power. Bran becomes the three-eyed-crow. Arya becomes a deadly assassin. Jon becomes King. Sansa becomes a cunning B

I mean if Sansa gets played AGAIN, I'll be sorely disgruntled. It would ruin the character for me, because it would make all the supposed lessons she learned over the course of the show pointless. She wouldn't have learned anything at all. 

As for Danny big heart Jon, a part of me thinks this would be awesome, but then I had it pointed out to me that Rhaegar is Danny's brother, and Jon's dad, so Danny is Jon's aunt. That's messed up. Hahahha. We'll at least she can't have children, so no babies with extra fingers and toes.


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 22, 2017)

If it were only the chains, good... its the piling on, justify as you will. 

D-d-d-dany and her jets... I mean supersonic dragons... doesn't quite fit the song, but hey.

Dany and Jon sitting in a tree... hell, nothing new for Targaryens, heh heh.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 22, 2017)

Demesnedenoir said:


> D-d-d-dany and her jets


She better get wise to those anti-aircraft spears, or the song will be "Dany and Her JET."


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 28, 2017)

I'm overall very happy with this season. I liked Theon winning the respect of his crew, Little Finger getting beaten at his own game, and seeing evidence that dragons being able to kill thousands at a time is rather terrifying when one gets turned to the dark side. The Wall's fire escape must've seemed infinitely long to those poor watchmen.

Going back to LF's death--the sisters not truly betraying each other was expected, but I loved how it played out.


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## Demesnedenoir (Aug 28, 2017)

I would notch it as a midling season, maybe lower half, not that I've given it great thought. Littlefinger's gurgle was good, but a tad cliche when it comes to gotcha moments. The dead dragon was good, but how we got a dead dragon was weak. 

Primarily, it was a buildup season which felt more contrived than I'd like. The porn writers were mostly kept out of the HBO studios so that was a plus.


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## FifthView (Aug 28, 2017)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Littlefinger's gurgle was good, but a tad cliche when it comes to gotcha moments.



For me, everything seems a little too on-the-nose.

But there's not much room left for clever twerking in the story. Not enough time, not enough remaining episodes to take things in a wildly different path. Something I've been thinking since the start of this season: All those characters whose method of operation is clever manipulation, "throne-gaming," are being sidelined or, in this case, killed. We've moved beyond the "game" portion and are now into the more serious fight or die portion. So Danaerys, Jon/Aegon, Arya, Jaime, and all the other killers and fighters are soaking up the limelight; or else, those characters who are very weak in nuanced political manipulation, like Bronn and Theon.

I did especially like seeing Littlefinger beg and weep, more than seeing Sansa single him out at the beginning of that scene. For me, that's almost a summary of the turn this show has taken. Cersei seems to be the only one remaining who is still hatching clever plots. (Ok, I'll add Euron, but he's just an extension of Cersei now.)

I'd add the Night's King to that list of clever plotters, but he's too opaque. Incidentally, that's another negative thing the creators of the show have done. Their go-to method of trying to build shocking surprises is to keep characters opaque. The whole Sansa/Arya/Bran tag team was handled this way. So yes, the outcome wasn't exactly predictable, was too opaque for predictability, but it left only two potential outcomes and the writers went with the fan service. Well LF didn't have much left to do in the show, given the time constraints and the fact that we've moved beyond the nuanced gaming.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 28, 2017)

On predictability, I think we know the characters well enough that very little can surprise us. The Stark sisters weren't going to kill each other, and even if you missed the clues they were playing LF, you knew he would lose to the girls.

Theon gaining respect and Cersei's tears were the more surprising moments. How LF took the prospect of his death... I did enjoy that. He knew he was screwed but tried to talk his way out because talking's the only skill he has.


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## FifthView (Aug 28, 2017)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> On predictability, I think we know the characters well enough that very little can surprise us. The Stark sisters weren't going to kill each other, and even if you missed the clues they were playing LF, you knew he would lose to the girls.



I think that once Arya was brought into the room, and especially with the mention of "murder" along with treason, and especially with the sudden reappearance of Bran, the outcome was pretty predictable.

When the writers decided to have LF say that no one was there, no one saw....with Bran sitting right behind him in that camera angle, I'm like, here comes Bran to drive in the nail. That's one of those little things that's been too on the nose for me, a tiny thing maybe but nonetheless...

I do think we know most of the characters too well at this point for them to surprise us much. But the way the writers kept so much opaque in the Arya-Sansa interactions still left open the possibility that Sansa would do something ridiculous. I had thought the writers were playing that conflict up way too much, trying too hard to leave open the possibility. But this was a situation, before this episode, where I couldn't be positive what the writers were going to do until much nearer the resolution point.


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## FifthView (Aug 28, 2017)

Incidentally, I'm glad Bran's abilities were clarified. I'd been thinking he could only see the past and present, not the future, and I'm glad this is true. He can make educated guesses about the future, sure. And he doesn't automatically see everything in the past—hadn't thought to go look at the marriage between Jon's parents, until Sam informed him of it.


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## Penpilot (Sep 3, 2017)

I think part of the nuance is lost because the show didn't have an actual novel to draw things from this time arround. All they probably had was notes and outlines from Martin. 

Jon and Danny, I'm wondering if there's going to be some sort of miracle birth/pregnancy because pure Targaryan is being combined? Ewwww. Maybe Danny will actually give birth to a dragon or through this bring them back in a big way?


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