# Struggling with battle scenes



## Chessie (Mar 21, 2014)

Are they really that important to good fantasy stories? I kid!  

But seriously, they drag me down into the depths of an emotional oblivion. I like my characters to use their brains to get out of crappy situations instead of weapons/fists. I also like them to be sneaky. But I think its important that I learn how to write good battle scenes. My problem is that I can't actually _think_ of physical interactions between characters when they fight. Does anyone have suggestions or resources on how to write good battle scenes? In honesty, I find them rather boring in movies and books, too. But I'm not so sure my fantasy stories will sell good without them. Thank you!


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## ThinkerX (Mar 21, 2014)

I believe we've had a number of threads in these forums dealing with battle scenes.  Couple rules of thumb:

Serious fight between pro's, its one, two, three (as in seconds).  At the end of that time, barring something weird, one guy will be dead, hurting real bad, or running like blazes.  In the 'research' sub-forum somebody linked a You-Tube video going into this - something like half a dozen fights in a minute plus clip - including the setups.  (alas, the thread title, like so much else these days escapes me).

'Something weird' includes heavily armored combatants - this can turn into an endurance contest; combatants using not so great weapons (longer to inflict lethal/crippling damage), or a fight between inexperienced/untrained warriors.

The other thing is keeping the sentences short.  Minimal description.


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## Feo Takahari (Mar 21, 2014)

Chesterama said:


> In honesty, I find them rather boring in movies and books, too. But I'm not so sure my fantasy stories will sell good without them.



And here we have the giant red flag.








Seriously, if you try to write a scene while thinking it's boring, I guarantee your readers will be bored as well. If you can't find a way to make it interesting, just don't write that kind of scene--just as there's a market for _The Ranger's Apprentice_, so's there a market for _Kitty Norville_.

With that said, you stated that you like to have characters think their way out of situations. Why not approach combat as a logic problem? I can't find the post, but I remember someone talking about the environmental factors in a battle by a campfire--you could keep the fire between you and them so they can't get close, you could get their back to the fire so they can't get away, you could kick embers in their face, etc. Look for all the factors your protagonists could use to gain the upper hand, then think of how your antagonists would respond to manipulate the same or different factors.

(If you'd like to see an example of a story that relies heavily on the logic problem approach to combat, read the _Codex Alera_ by Jim Butcher. It's not quite as environment-heavy as what I'm talking about, but it does involve a lot of out-of-the-box thinking.)


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## Penpilot (Mar 21, 2014)

The thing about battle scenes, they're not really about they physical interactions. It's about the emotion. IMHO if you set up the emotion of the battle right, the physical stuff doesn't have to be spectacular. It just hast to be satisfactory enough to move the story along. 

For example. Look at the the fight between Luke and Vader in The Empire Strikes Back. Most of the time it's the two of them whacking sticks together. There are a few jumps and a few things thrown. But the magic of the scene is in the emotion. Even though Luke is out matched, he gets to face off against the guy who killed his mentor, who hurt his friends, and who now tempts him with the power of the dark side. And the huge massive pay off at the end "Luke, I am your father."

Now compare that to Anikin and Obi-Wan's fight in Revenge of the Sith. Visually it's spectacular, but for the most part devoid of any real emotion. Honestly, I can't even remember why they were fighting. He's turned bad, so now they must fight to the death? The fight goes on and on and on and by the end it's like zzzzzz. And what's the pay off? Obi-Wan telling him "You have lost. I have high ground." WTF does that even mean? OR is he pay off the infamous ending as Vader breaks loose from his Frankenstein table and cries "NOOOOOO!" That made me laugh for hours. Too bad that wasn't meant to be a comical scene.

In summary, fight scenes are all about the emotion, what the fight means to the POV character if they win or lose.


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## Svrtnsse (Mar 21, 2014)

The closest I've come to a battle scene in my WIP so far is when Loianna (three years old), attacks her older brother Eric (17 y/o) for stealing her last meatball.


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## Black Dragon (Mar 21, 2014)

Here are some articles that may prove helpful:

How to Write Battle Scenes

6 Tips for Writing a Knockout Fight Scene

Writing the Military: 5 Biggest Mistakes


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## Addison (Mar 21, 2014)

Chesterama, my MC is like yours, uses his brain more than his brawn. Ever seen MacGyver? Burn Notice? Leverage? The MC's in both shows use brawn (and bullets, explosives or bare fists in the latter two) as a last resort. They use their brain to beat security systems, con crooks and and do good. A battle doesn't have to be physical to have the readers glued to the page. It just has to be exciting. Like your MC is making a....fire-work propelled missile of rotten garbage and the gun-packing bag guys are about to break through the door. Or security knows your MC is in the building and he's constantly ducking in and out of rooms, changing clothes and sneaking through crowds to get out before he gets caught. That's a cat and mouse battle.


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## Chessie (Mar 21, 2014)

Feo Takahari said:


> Why not approach combat as a logic problem?


Yes, I like this. Thanks for highlighting it and using the example of the fire, that clicked something for me. 

And Black Dragon, I'll be checking out those links! Thanks!

Addison, I totally dig a cat and mouse battle. The main character in my story is an herbalist, and she carries a knife more for show. She doesn't know how to use it against the magical creatures in the story. I thought about writing in a scene where she attempts to use it, but fails miserably.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Mar 21, 2014)

I'm going to agree with PenPilot....again. 

I think I do fight scenes well, at least that's what I've been told by crit partners. My #1 rule for combat scenes of any scale....

The events in a fight aren't what matters. It's the effects those events have on characters that count. Show the reader how characters react & feel. The rest is just choreography, a means to an end.


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## Devor (Mar 21, 2014)

Chesterama said:


> I like my characters to use their brains to get out of crappy situations instead of weapons/fists. I also like them to be sneaky.



It's interesting how people can see the world so differently.  I would have said both of those are key to a good fight scene.

Fighting is a skill.  When training and experience collide into a rush of adrenaline, people don't become new people.  They turn to behaviors they've learned over the years.  In that sense a fight scene is a great opportunity to prove who your character is and what they may have learned.  If someone likes to use their brain and be sneaky, let them.  Hypercharge that feature with an adrenaline rush and figure out where that would lead.


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## WeilderOfTheMonkeyBlade (Mar 21, 2014)

Finally. A topic which I feel that I might actually have an inkling of what I'm talking about *rubs hands together in anticipation. (or, seeing as I'm reading Words of Radiance, Anticipation spren appear)*  Thought to be honest not knowing what I'm on about hasn't stopped me spouting random crud yet.... 

And back to being marginally helpful.  

 For me, Battle scenes are a big part of my books- I like writing Military heavy fantasy, so you can obviously see why battle scenes might crop up occasionally. My MC is a fan of using his sword or bow over his mind. The fights are all about a rush of choppy sentences, powerful battering rams of emotions, everything's happening quickly ,overpoweringly so. 

Things change fast- one second he's laughing with the Battle joy as he shoots down Draugr, the next he's yelling in terror as a Battle Construct charges in from the flank..... you get the idea. I think for more logical people, proper battles would work better, have them up on a hill, manoeuvring troops. Maybe you could have the person drift off into a cold trance, sending people to die like playing chess, whilst dimly aware of a more human voice screaming in dismay as the person just sacrifices a unit to lure the enemy in.  

But I also think that you need to put a lot of action in, descriptions, details. I want to know who's fighting who, how they're armed, flanking manoeuvres, the whole works, not two armies running screaming at each other.... though that can be fun! 

And also, if you have trouble getting into the "flow" of the fight/battle, try listening to something to get you in the mood for a battle, maybe metal, if your into that. 

HOPE THIS HELPS AND GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR WRITING MATE!!!!!!!!!


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## Wormtongue (Mar 22, 2014)

Penpilot said:


> Now compare that to Anikin and Obi-Wan's fight in Revenge of the Sith. Visually it's spectacular, but for the most part devoid of any real emotion.


That description applies to the entire movie.  And, well, most movies these days.



Penpilot said:


> In summary, fight scenes are all about the emotion, what the fight means to the POV character if they win or lose.



In other words, fight scenes are like any other scene.  

A fight scene with no emotion is like watching somebody else play a video game.


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## Helen (Mar 22, 2014)

Chesterama said:


> Are they really that important to good fantasy stories? I kid!
> 
> But seriously, they drag me down into the depths of an emotional oblivion. I like my characters to use their brains to get out of crappy situations instead of weapons/fists. I also like them to be sneaky. But I think its important that I learn how to write good battle scenes. My problem is that I can't actually _think_ of physical interactions between characters when they fight. Does anyone have suggestions or resources on how to write good battle scenes? In honesty, I find them rather boring in movies and books, too. But I'm not so sure my fantasy stories will sell good without them. Thank you!



I'm going to suggest that the answer to this lies in the root of conflict.

People say that stories are about "conflict" but conflict itself is really the result of, for example, character positions relative to theme.

If you figure out how battles and theme relate to each other, then it won't just be about fists and fights.


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## Malik (Mar 22, 2014)

When writing fight scenes, I try to keep the lengths of my sentences and descriptions relative to the speeds of the actions themselves.

When the two characters are circling in their guards, I use a lot of detail. Because right then, they're each keying in on their opponent and really making a plan. I may not detail the plan they're making, but the descriptions here will be longer. Once the fur starts flying, it's short phrases encompassing a lot of action with each word; one-line paragraphs; sometimes, one-word sentences. Especially if it's from the omniscient.

Sometimes, it's just a blur:

_The tallest of the armored men, on his way past, slammed Jarrod's ear with his shin hard enough to level him and send his helmet skidding across the floor. 

	Jarrod regained his feet, slurping at the shooting pains in his head.

	The knight muttered a gruff apology, snorting, “Oh, excuse me, sire!” with his hand on his heart. This brought hoots and taunts from his seconds.

	Jarrod's temper supernovaed.

	They tangled, crashing and bashing and cursing at the top of their lungs. Javal leaped to his feet and roared Jarrod's name, both a reprimand and a warning.

	For Javal had recognized the tallest of the knights: General Loth, High Warlord of Gavria.

	Javal was working out how he would explain to the king that Jarrod had been killed only one week into his training until, in a spectacular moment, Jarrod rolled Loth up onto his shoulders and flipped him into the marble floor hard enough to rattle the entire castle. 

	The world stopped on its axis. 

        Somewhere outside, a bird sang. _

If you talk to a group of onlookers after a fight -- a real fight -- they all say the same thing: "It happened so FAST."


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## skip.knox (Mar 23, 2014)

Good comments on this thread. 

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the character of the characters. *ahem*  What I mean is, many of these posts assume the combatants are both competent and experienced, but that isn't always the case. My novel involves four kids as protagonists, but at one point they need to confront four experienced bandits. At another, a wizard; and at another, a monster very much bigger than themselves. One among them has magic, but he's new to it. So, they don't know the shifty moves, necessarily. Part of the tension in the scenes derives precisely from this they-are-in-over-their-heads aspect to the fight.

This can be generalized. The MC doesn't need to be a child or incompetent. He could simply be on unfamiliar ground, or be a magician without his spell book, or a swordsman without his right hand (spoiler!). 

All this goes back to what others have said. It's not about the fight, it's about the fighter. Similarly, it's not about the magic system, it's about the magicians. It's not about the sex, it's about the lovers. Und so weiter.


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## Svrtnsse (Mar 23, 2014)

Malik said:


> When writing fight scenes, I try to keep the lengths of my sentences and descriptions relative to the speeds of the actions themselves.



I read somewhere that the full stop at the end of a sentence simulates a breathing space. If the breathing spaces come closer together it simulates faster breathing, which in turn indicates excitement, or exhaustion, or anything else that makes you breathe faster. 
It's a simple and easy trick that's also quite powerful. Just remember to mix it up with longer sentences now and then for the breathing to calm down.


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## wordwalker (Mar 23, 2014)

That's the usual advice, that shorter sentences make a fight seem more frantic.

I don't agree. I think a mid-length or slightly longer sentence (carefully built) can be the best way to capture that you can't get a clean breath, and don't have as many moments to pause because things keep coming at you. Of course if your style is light on description or just not comfortable with fights, you might be better off with simple sentences that push things along that way.

One extension of the "it's about the characters" rule is to look at a fight as characters looking to make choices, though it's often on the level of an instinctive choice. Who lashes out on instinct, who tries to fend someone off and set him up with a feint, who's really looking for a chance to break and run-- and how those choices change to form the key moments of the fight.

Balancing that is that the usual writer urge to look for variety and originality can backfire. A fight is where the simple, basic moves --that people have worked out by surviving thousands of years of battle-- usually work, and trickier stunts usually not just fail, they get you skewered in the half-second it takes to start setting them up. A convincing trick is a fine thing in a fight scene, but it's better if it IS convincing.


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## Svrtnsse (Mar 23, 2014)

I found a scene in my WIP that I'd forgotten about that's pretty close to a fight scene. It's not necessarily fighting as such, but there's some physical conflict and some potential bad consequences.

This starts with Enar (the MC) sitting at the top of a big hill enjoying the view, just by the edge of a cliff.


> The roof of the inn was easy to spot and from there he traced the road west to where the crossroads must be. He tried following it south to see if he could spot the orchard at Rolf's place, but soon lost track of where the road might be winding. As he squinted to see better the wind sprites attacked.
> 
> Howling with laughter they threw themselves down out of the old pine. The breeze turned into a gale that wrapped itself around him and tore at his clothes. It wrenched him off the bench and pushed him towards the edge of the cliff. Arms flailing he stumbled and nearly went over before regaining his balance. With a scream he threw himself flat onto the bench and held on for dear life.
> 
> He couldn't say how long he laid there, heart racing, clinging to the bench. It felt like an eternity. Eventually he realized the wind had died down and the howling was gone. All he could hear was his own heavy breathing. He opened his eyes and blinked a few times to clear his vision. Slowly he sat up. All seemed quiet.



The "fighting" is all in the middle paragraph and none of the sentences here are actually that short. They're all multi-part sentences with two or three events related in them. It's in the third paragraph where the short sentences start to appear. Still, even then they're mixed up with longer ones.
I personally feel this works pretty well, but I'm not sure how well it really follows the advice on using short sentences. It does mix it up a bit though - especially in the third paragraph which is the "aftermath" of the fight.


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