# How much magic is too much?



## Chessie (Dec 13, 2013)

Hi everyone, that question has been in my head all day. Can stories that are magic heavy be really good? I suppose it depends on the way its done but I'm curious about the thoughts of others on what it takes to overdo it. Happy Holidays!


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## T.Allen.Smith (Dec 13, 2013)

In my opinion, the amount of magic isn't as important as consistency with how it's handled. 

I can read high fantasy or low fantasy and be fine. The quality of a story isn't defined by elements like these. However, some readers may have a tendency to go for stories that fit within certain parameters, like the amount of magic.


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## GeekDavid (Dec 13, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> In my opinion, the amount of magic isn't as important as consistency with how it's handled.



While I tend to like high magic, I don't like everything with a lot of magic in it. There has to be consistency, even if the rules are never clearly explained. If a new method of magic comes up in the same world, there should be some explanation of why this person is able to do it this way, even if it's something like "he didn't have any training in the traditional method, so he came up with his own."


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 13, 2013)

I guess another way of asking the question would be: how do you avoid magic being overpowered?

When you have the magic in your story be too powerful it crosses the lines from fantastic into unbelievable. Like TAS says above, it doesn't matter too much how powerful the magic is, but how consistently it's handled. The reader needs to feel there's some kind of reason behind the magic. It needs to work the same for all users - unless of course the unreliability and unpredictability of magic is an integral part of it.

Brian Sanderson has written a bit on the topic:


> Sanderson’s First Law of Magics: An author’s ability to solve conflict with magic is DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to how well the reader understands said magic.


SandersonÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s First Law



> Sanderson’s First Law of Magics: Limitations > Powers


SandersonÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Second Law



> Sanderson’s First Law of Magics: In epic fantasy books, it’s not the number of powers that creates immersive and memorable worldbuilding—it’s not even the powers themselves. It’s how well they are ingrained into the society, culture, ecology, economics, and everyday lives of the people in the stories.


SandersonÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Third Law of Magic


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## Penpilot (Dec 14, 2013)

I don't think you can overdo it. It's about the type of world/story you're creating and its needs. My thinking of magic runs parallel to the way Brandon Sanderson thinks of things. The more you use magic to solve story problems, the more it needs to be explained. If you don't use magic to solve problems, then you don't have to explain anything at all.

My WIP is an urban fantasy in a magic rich world, where magic out in the open and is everywhere. I created rules for the parts of magic that affected story and left other parts mysterious. I boiled the problems I had to deal with down into one question. If magic is common, then why isn't every light bulb powered by magic?

Just being able to answer a simple question like that, and similar questions, I think I was able to ground the magic and make it practical, so it fit in with the modern world. And I guess that's the key, making it fit the world.

Also on a slight tangent.

Magic and science IMHO run parallel. Think about something like Star Trek. The technology and techno-babble might as well be magic because it's so advanced and gobbley-gookey. How many times can they reroute warp drive power through Jeffries tubes 3 and 4 and into the main deflector array to do X? But things like this don't stand out because it fits into the world.


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## Ophiucha (Dec 14, 2013)

Definitely agree with the others, with an added thought.

I think there's a point you'll hit where magic needs to have a balance. A lot of fantasy worlds have magic as a trained art, or a rare gift. It's powerful, but no more so than a few good swords in the hands of skilled warriors. Fine, but if magic becomes something _extremely_ powerful, more of a natural force than a mere tool or weapon, I don't think it works as well to have it limited to a select number of people, or else the world would have been destroyed centuries ago. Either there needs to be an anti-magic of some sort, or perhaps magic so potent and powerful cannot be contained in just a handful of people and creatures.


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## Feo Takahari (Dec 14, 2013)

I've mentioned before that I like how El Goonish Shive handles magic. It violates a lot of the suggested rules--anti-magic is rare, potential magic-users are common, and there are very few hard limits on what magic can do. The thing is, it's a setting that's constantly on the verge of catastrophe, where one ordinary jerk who happens to find a quick route to power can easily cause massive death and destruction before anyone's able to stop him. The author follows through with the dark implications his magic system implies, and the world around that magic reflects it.

I think it's all a matter of how willing you are to follow through. If you have a world where magic is rare, reflect that in how magic is thought of and how people react to it. If you have a world where magic is common, reflect how it changes the world.


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## Chessie (Dec 14, 2013)

These responses are all very juicy, thank you. See, some of the magic in my story's world has a technological function, while the magic at the core of the story is much more dangerous and forbidden. It does cause catastrophe, but I'm trying to find balance here so that magic doesn't seem overpowered as mentioned above. I like having an explanation of how the magic works for myself, but I don't usually give readers those answers.


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## AnneL (Dec 14, 2013)

One of the things that makes me lose interest in magic as a reader is when it gets too repetitive. The first time I want some sort of explanation of how it works or where it comes from, but I don't want to see that repeated over and over.  I think magic by itself doesn't overwhelm a story, but when the author keeps trying to show it, it gets boring, which is the last thing you want from magic. Once someone's convinced me that the world has magic, I don't need to keep being sold on it. Now that I know it works and sort of what the parameters are, I want to see what to see what characters do in response to it.


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## Chessie (Dec 14, 2013)

Interesting. Would you mind providing us with an example of how it can become repetitive? Just if the author keeps mentioning how the magic works?


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## AnneL (Dec 14, 2013)

Yeah. One example would be in a D&D magic-user type world if we got the spell recipe or rituals every single time it was used. Another might be if there's a shapeshifter and every time there's a transformation we get treated to a description of how it feels to take a different form. J.K. Rowling (probably prodded by an editor) describes Quidditch when it's first mentioned in the first four books, and then she starts assuming the reader knows what Quidditch is and it just becomes part of the background texture of the world while the story focuses on the events.  The HP books are a good example of a writer figuring out how to work with magic -- by the last 3, she's much more assured in the solidity of the wizarding world and the stories get a lot more compelling.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 14, 2013)

Chesterama said:


> Interesting. Would you mind providing us with an example of how it can become repetitive? Just if the author keeps mentioning how the magic works?



I guess it's the repetition that makes it a bit dull.
Let's take the books about Harry Dresden as an example. Harry is a magician and at some point in every book there's a passage about how magic works in his world. After fourteen books I feel I have a pretty good idea about how he casts spells and I don't really need the explanation. However, since it's just once per book I can live with it - especially if it's been a while since I read the previous book - then it brings me back into the world like something familiar to latch on to.
The Dresden books are fairly short. You could probably fit three or four of them withing your average epic fantasy novel (Malazan Empire, ASOIAF) without too much trouble. Now imagine you're reading one of those books and the basic fundamentals of magic are explained three or four times, instead of just once.
I think that would get a bit silly. It's important for understanding the story, but once your reader has a clue about the magic, explaining it again won't move the story forward. Reading several of the Dresden files books back to back you'll experience something of this. You already know how magic works, but you can forgive it as it's just once per book.


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## Hainted (Dec 14, 2013)

I tend to look at magic as a martial art. Anyone can learn it, but the years of dedication required to achieve mastery of it tends to keep most people from doing more than a spell or two. In other words First Year Hogwarts= white belt while Gandalf = Bruce Lee. Magic is also dangerous. Once you start to work a spell, ritual, or cantrip you must get it "right". Once that energy is drawn upon it will do something, and if you don't have the discipline, concentration, and fortitude to focus it correctly it will go bad for you(and possibly several acres of real estate).

I also limited magic's abilities. Magic can't be used for healing, that's the purview of doctors or priests/priestesses. Magic can't create something from nothing, but can transmute objects into new shapes, and can't be used to create "life". Golems are the province of religion, and robots would be scientific. In short I figured up the Difficulty, Rarity, and Cost of using magic on a scale of 1-8, and then laid down what those numbers meant.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Dec 14, 2013)

Keep in mind that it's also possible to have magic in your story that is pervasive and makes absolutely no sense and is totally inconsistent and is frequently used as a _deus ex machina_ or retconned for plot purposes, and yet have your books be some of the most popular novels of all time, and then they get made into 8 movies even though there were only 7 books, and there's billions of dollars in merchandising and theme parks and...


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## Feo Takahari (Dec 14, 2013)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Keep in mind that it's also possible to have magic in your story that is pervasive and makes absolutely no sense and is totally inconsistent and is frequently used as a _deus ex machina_ or retconned for plot purposes, and yet have your books be some of the most popular novels of all time, and then they get made into 8 movies even though there were only 7 books, and there's billions of dollars in merchandising and theme parks and...



In general, YA seems to get away with more inconsistent magic than adult fiction does. I guess kids don't really care.


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## Penpilot (Dec 14, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> In general, YA seems to get away with more inconsistent magic than adult fiction does. I guess kids don't really care.



I don't know if it's just kids. Never underestimate the power of cool. If you tell a story well enough, readers in general will let you get away with things once in a while just because it was cool.


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## Chessie (Dec 14, 2013)

Penpilot said:


> Never underestimate the power of cool. If you tell a story well enough, readers in general will let you get away with things once in a while just because it was cool.


So can a cool magic that works as technology still be just as cool when it does something supernatural?


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## Steerpike (Dec 14, 2013)

Chesterama said:


> So can a cool magic that works as technology still be just as cool when it does something supernatural?



I think if you have already established it as tech and it does something supernatural, you need an explanation as to how.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 14, 2013)

Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.

...or how was it now?


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## Steerpike (Dec 14, 2013)

Svrtnsse said:


> Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
> 
> ...or how was it now?



That's true, but then it isn't really supernatural. If you're truly going to give it a supernatural property, I'd like to see a rationale for it.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 14, 2013)

I was mainly being silly (the original quote is the other way around).

The mix of technology and magic is interesting though. What if you can enchant the parts of a machine in such a way that it produces a magical effect? Let's say you enchant the barrel of a gun so that when the bullet passes through it is transformed into a supersonic, wasp-sized golem that homes in on the intended target and hits even if a regular bullet would have missed.

Depending on how you do it, you could do some cool stuff with it.


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## GeekDavid (Dec 14, 2013)

Svrtnsse said:


> I was mainly being silly (the original quote is the other way around).
> 
> The mix of technology and magic is interesting though. What if you can enchant the parts of a machine in such a way that it produces a magical effect? Let's say you enchant the barrel of a gun so that when the bullet passes through it is transformed into a supersonic, wasp-sized golem that homes in on the intended target and hits even if a regular bullet would have missed.
> 
> Depending on how you do it, you could do some cool stuff with it.



Hmmm... now you got me thinking...


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## Feo Takahari (Dec 14, 2013)

Svrtnsse said:


> I was mainly being silly (the original quote is the other way around).
> 
> The mix of technology and magic is interesting though. What if you can enchant the parts of a machine in such a way that it produces a magical effect? Let's say you enchant the barrel of a gun so that when the bullet passes through it is transformed into a supersonic, wasp-sized golem that homes in on the intended target and hits even if a regular bullet would have missed.
> 
> Depending on how you do it, you could do some cool stuff with it.



Well, Exalted has holy guns that are powered by tiny shrines in their barrels . . .

(Come to think of it, if you want to talk "awesome," Exalted is your go-to. Everything about that setting runs on the power of cool.)


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 14, 2013)

I think I would allow for enchanted guns etc in my setting if I got to that point. The limitation in that case is that all enchants (except divine ones) will expire over time. They'll grow weaker over time or just stop functioning. One of my paladins is like to be wielding a pair of enchanted handguns of some sort.

I've not delved much further into it though so I don't know what the enchant would actually do, or what type of guns they are. I just like the idea of blessed guns - similar to magical swords.


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## Chessie (Dec 14, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> That's true, but then it isn't really supernatural. If you're truly going to give it a supernatural property, I'd like to see a rationale for it.


I do have a rationale for it. I'm just playing with ideas here, but I thought it would be interesting to have a world where runes (powered by harvested magic from a specific light source) lit up lanterns, heated homes, heated water, and was able to power the grow light for my main character's apothecary garden. But then she's also playing with a different and more dangerous magic which is supernatural in a way. I'm trying to balance it all out to ground the story. I think it could work somehow, but the somehow is escaping me.

Edit: I will say that I'm not married to the idea of magic as technology. Part of me also thinks that the story would be just as mystical with the supernatural magic.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 14, 2013)

While on the topic of magic and machines, there's this article I wrote for my setting...
Critical Instability - Odd Lands Wiki

Basically, what it's about is how magic can't be controlled with machines, but how machines can cause uncontrollable and unpredictable magical reactions. This is one of the reasons tradition engines aren't widely used.


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## Chessie (Dec 14, 2013)

Sweet! Thanks for the link, I'll check it out now.


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## AnneL (Dec 14, 2013)

I think you can have multiple systems with different rules if you plan it out carefully.  In my WIP there's a race of people who can do some kinds of magic through inborn ability and more or less by instinct, like learning to walk, and then there are other people who have a magical ability but have to be taught to do magic, and they are two different forms of magic. What's been really tricky for me is deciding what particular magical act belongs to which system and what kind of overlap is allowed. I decided that they had to have the same magical well, so to speak, just differences in what they can do with it. Writing-wise, the challenge has been not to explain this dual system too much.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 14, 2013)

AnneL said:


> I think you can have multiple systems with different rules if you plan it out carefully.  In my WIP there's a race of people who can do some kinds of magic through inborn ability and more or less by instinct, like learning to walk, and then there are other people who have a magical ability but have to be taught to do magic, and they are two different forms of magic. What's been really tricky for me is deciding what particular magical act belongs to which system and what kind of overlap is allowed. I decided that they had to have the same magical well, so to speak, just differences in what they can do with it. Writing-wise, the challenge has been not to explain this dual system too much.



At the very core I only have one system for wielding magic: channel the aether and weave it into a spell.
However, there are different methods for doing it depending on who you are and where your talents lie.

 - Channel and Weave. This is the most basic way. It's flexible and versatile, but gets complicated and difficult the more advanced effects are sought after. Only people with the ability to channel, weave or both are able to do this.
 - Shamanism. Invoke the spirit of the land in order to use their power to cast a spell. This can be extremely powerful, but is crude and blunt. Achieving a magical effect often require ritual involving multiple props and participants. Anyone with knowledge of the basic principles of shamanism can do this given enough resources (including time). Persons with shamanistic talents will be able to perform the same rituals more efficiently - depending on their connection to the land and the spirit.
 - Divine magic. Ask one of the gods to do magic for you. Generally reserved for paladins and other high-ranking members of the clergy. The wielder can ask for anything, without limitations, but it's up to god whether or not they'll grant it.
 - Soul magic. A variant of Channel and Weave but more specialized. The wielder has a specific and intuitive understanding of something and are able to wield magic more complex than normally possible as long as it's within the specific area.
 - Vampiric magic. The vampire is a parasite that attaches itself to the soul of a victim and forcibly channels aether through it, slowly eroding the soul in the process. This form of magic is both flexible and powerful, but fortunately vampires are quite rare.


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## Hainted (Dec 15, 2013)

I agree with the idea of magic as universal, just different cultures have different traditions that allow for it's manipulation. I've just always had a problem with magic as technology, especially if it's just a replacement for electricity. In my WIP magic, especially enchanted objects, require a living conduit, and the person wielding the object can affect the effectiveness of the enchantment. Using the golem gun as an example, in the hands of a trained marksman who's spent time with the weapon it would be pulling shots straight out of Wanted, while in my hands it would probably hit a bullseye on a non-moving paper target 7 out of 10 shots.

As far as the garden, I could see the lamps as being either divine, or some form of alchemical reaction.

In my own world I have the following forms of magic:
-Learned: which is the traditions, formula, rituals, etc... a culture, or school has developed to manipulate reality. Dangerous, Difficult, and Dirty
-Divine: powers, and abilities granted by the gods, and wielded by the gods. Requires a lot of faith, only works if it's being done to bring glory to the deity, and only if the deity allows it.
-Inherent: Beings who are magical, and for whom magic comes as easily as breathing does to us. Fae,Daemons, Djinn, Oni, Demigods, etc... Not as powerful as the gods, but stronger than any mortal, they usually have a specific weakness or limitation.
-Bartered: People who have traded something for the ability to wield magic. Souls, first born, artistic ability something has been sacrificed to a magical being in exchange for a specific magical talent or set of powers


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## BWFoster78 (Dec 15, 2013)

> Can stories that are magic heavy be really good?



?????

I think a story's "goodness" is completely a function of the writer's ability, not the content.  A good writer can write a good story about anything.  How much magic the story contains, imo, has no relevance to how good the story is.


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## Philip Overby (Dec 15, 2013)

> Hi everyone, that question has been in my head all day. Can stories that are magic heavy be really good? I suppose it depends on the way its done but I'm curious about the thoughts of others on what it takes to overdo it. Happy Holidays!



By magic heavy, do you mean stories that rely heavily on magic as a plot device or a world that has many different types of magic? I think Brandon Sanderson's worlds could be considered "magic heavy." If you want to see how an author handles those kind of things, I suggest checking out some of his books. 

There may be stories that rely too much on magic, if that's what you're asking. For example, every problem in the story is easily solved by casting a spell or waving a wand. That might get tiresome for some readers. I've seen suggestions to limit magical abilities when possible or have some consequence for using it. If magic is used to solve everything, it may lessen the overall tension. However, a high magic world may have a different set of issues or problems to be resolved. You have to think creatively how you might cause obstacles in a world where almost anything is possible by magic.


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## GeekDavid (Dec 15, 2013)

Phil the Drill said:


> There may be stories that rely too much on magic, if that's what you're asking. For example, every problem in the story is easily solved by casting a spell or waving a wand. That might get tiresome for some readers. I've seen suggestions to limit magical abilities when possible or have some consequence for using it. If magic is used to solve everything, it may lessen the overall tension. However, a high magic world may have a different set of issues or problems to be resolved. You have to think creatively how you might cause obstacles in a world where almost anything is possible by magic.



I think when magic becomes a _deus ex machina_ is when it's too heavy, or maybe overly used is a better term.

A magic system with clear limitations is about the best way to avoid that. Even in Eddings' admittedly magic-heavy Belgariad and Malloreon, there's a limit on how much a person can use it. Belgarath (the wise old sorcerer) nearly dies because he uses too much too quickly during a magical duel with another sorcerer.


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## Chessie (Dec 15, 2013)

Phil, I have read some of Sanderson's works and I like the way he uses magic. It makes sense yet its still mysterious. I was wondering more about magic to enhance plot and conflict rather than solve problems. The magic in my stories more often causes problems (and its more than one type of magic), yet its still useful in those worlds. I'm in the process of finding balance so that things make sense. My idea is to just hit readers with the magic from the very beginning, so that they know its already part of the world and lessens the learning curve for them. 

I do agree in that magic must have limits, just like any other element in a story. It all ties together.


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## Morgyn (Dec 16, 2013)

*Character Response to Magic*



AnneL said:


> Now that I know it works and sort of what the parameters are, I want to see what to see what characters do in response to it.



Agree.  Getting in the head of a character slamming into magic, going how did that happen, why, everything it takes to let the reader experience the marvel.


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## Sam Evren (Dec 16, 2013)

I think the issue of magic isn't so much a question of quantity, but of treatment. I'm riffing for an idea that's hiding in the back of my mind, one I'm hoping that my fingers on the keys will tickle out of me.

We deal with magic, essentially, every day. In the sense that you describe your runes, that being electricity. I've worked with it almost my entire adult life, we each run and think on it, but truly grasping it is another matter. 

Still, there are sciences devoted to it, lessons taught on the subject. Professionals work with it in various capacities.

I think the trick to treating magic properly is to treat it as a fundamental force - it may not be completely understood by anyone, and only malleable by few, but the important part is to treat it as a "real" force, rather than a tacked-on feature.

Electricians, physicists, and the like see electricity as a very everyday thing. We humans accept it as natural with greater or lesser understandings. It is an undeniable force.

So I don't think you can have too much magic. You could devote an entire series of books to the art and science of it, its manipulation, the way that it's understood, its power in the world.

Perhaps then, the key is for you, as the writer, to accept it, embrace it, and see what parallels you can find in reality. So, as your runes are everyday magic and your character explores more... esoteric magics, you can think of electricity being that fundamental magic and say quantum entanglement as a more "supernatural" analog and see where that takes you?


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