# Checking the logic of my timeline



## BWFoster78 (May 9, 2012)

Day 1 - The duke's daughter is kidnapped.  In a city a five day ride roughly west of the castle, Our Intrepid Hero starts having dreams where he meets a girl in a meadow.

Days 2 through 28 - Duke looks frantically for his daughter.  Suspects actions by duchy to the south.  Sends spies.

Day 29 - Duke gets report back of army leaving south duchy in route to his castle.  Sends out riders throughout his duchy for levies to gather and march to the castle.  (I'm thinking that he wants to wait as long as possible to call up the levies because of the expense of keeping a standing army and of calling the men away from farming, etc.)

Day 30 - Our Intrepid Hero is arrested for using magic.

Day 31 - Our Intrepid Hero finds out that the girl in his dreams is real, that she's the duke's daughter, and that she's in trouble.  He's rescued from jail, and he and his friends set out on a quest to find her.

Day 34 - Messengers from the duke arrive at Hero's town to muster the troops.

Day 38 - Our Intrepid Hero rescues the princess (duke's daughter, marquess, whatever) near a town a five day ride roughly north of the castle.  (Assuming roughly a right triangle made up of the castle and the two cities, the hypotenuse is roughly 7 days.  They go a good portion through moutains, which would slow them down, but they have chasers on their tail motivating them to move fast.)

Day 43 - The rescuers and the duke's daughter arrive at the castle.

Day 44 - Troops from hero's town arrive.  (That's 10 days for the group to be organized and march a distance that takes 5 days to ride - sound reasonable?)

Day 45 - Enemy army arrives.  (I can set the distance whatever I want to make the 16 day trip.)  

I would think it logical that the two duchies are capable of mustering roughly equal forces, with a slight advantage to the evil one.  It's important that the duke be undermanned when the enemy arrives.  I'm thinking that it's also logical for it to take quite a bit of time for his troops to arrive, especially those on foot.  What percentage of his troops does it make sense to have already arrived after 16 days?  

I know there's inexact information.  I haven't completely settled my map, and this discussion will help form it.


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## Ankari (May 9, 2012)

The problem lies in the time it takes for your spies to find of the invading army of Evil Duke, report back to Good Duke and wait for the Good Duke to muster his forces.

The Good Duke receives confirmation of an invading force 27 days after he sends out his spies.  Subtract the 5 days it takes to ride back from the Evil Dukes lord and the time for the spy to find out about the invasion the Evil Duke's forces may already be at the Good Duke's doorstep before his forces arrive to aid him.  You have to consider that the Evil Duke musters his forces just like the Good Duke, which implies that forces are camped outside the Evil Duke's castle ready to ride once all the various retainers come in.  This means:

A)  If the Evil Duke's ride is only 5 days away that suggests that the Evil Duke's Duchy is about a 2 to 3 day in all directions from his castle (this is assumed, correct me if I'm wrong).
B)  The Evil Duke sends out rides to gather his forces, it would take 7 to 14 days for various nobles to answer his summons with forces.
c)  I am assuming that the spy finds out about the impending invasion by the presence of the mustered forces.
D) The Evil Duke would be very close to marching on the Good Duke if forces are already gathered outside his castle.
E)  By the time the Good Duke sends out his request you're looking at the Evil Duke having a 10 to 15 day head start on the Good Duke.

I would think this is fixed if the spies are not sent but are already present in the castle of the Evil Duke.  In which case you're talking about a shorter period of time elapsing.  

That is my observation.


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## BWFoster78 (May 9, 2012)

> Subtract the 5 days it takes to ride back from the Evil Dukes



This time/distance isn't set.  An assumption of 5 days minimum is good, but I'd prefer it being longer/larger.



> You have to consider that the Evil Duke musters his forces just like the Good Duke,



I would think that the Evil Duke is in the process of mustering at the time the kidnap attempt takes place.



> A) If the Evil Duke's ride is only 5 days away that suggests that the Evil Duke's Duchy is about a 2 to 3 day in all directions from his castle (this is assumed, correct me if I'm wrong).



If I understand you correctly, you're talking about the amount of time it takes the Evil Duke to muster.  I'm not really considering that a factor since he planned the kidnap attempt and will move at a time that fits his devices.



> B) The Evil Duke sends out rides to gather his forces, it would take 7 to 14 days for various nobles to answer his summons with forces.



See points above.  I'm thinking he keeps his forces mustered around the castle for a while.  He's not as concerned about the expense since he's receiving outside help (sorry, a plot point that I didn't disclose because I didn't think about the relevance to my original post).



> c) I am assuming that the spy finds out about the impending invasion by the presence of the mustered forces.



Here's the way that I'm envisioning it.  Please check my logic:

The spies report back to the duke that the Evil Duke has a large force arrayed about the castle.  However, the force isn't doing anything or maybe doing drills/having tournaments.  Maybe the duke disguises the action as an expensive "review" of his forces.  The Good Duke debates calling up his troops then, but, in the absence of proof that the Evil Duke is going to move on him, he delays due to economic considerations.  

I'm not sure how much backstory I'm going to put into this part, but does this make any sense?


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## Queshire (May 9, 2012)

I wonder at how fast the spies can get the information back to the good duke, I doubt this is what you meant, but reading the timeline it suggests that he gets the report back as soon as he sends the spies out.

With his precious daughter kidnapped and his rival duchy just so happening to gather his army, I doubt he'd wait to gather his own army for economic concerns. Now if there were some minister or advisor without the family relationship to the kidnaped daughter, he might misguidedly stall the gathering of the army.

Personally if I was writing that scenario I'd have a third party kidnapping the childeren of both dukes while framing each other in an attempt to start a war.


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## BWFoster78 (May 9, 2012)

> Personally if I was writing that scenario I'd have a third party kidnapping the childeren of both dukes while framing each other in an attempt to start a war.



Interesting concept.  Thanks for the comment.


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## Ankari (May 9, 2012)

Sorry Brian, I confused a few of our details you've written.  So let me try again:

A) Good Duke has his daughter kidnapped by the Evil Duke X miles away.

B) Good Duke looks for his daughter and sends a spy to the Evil Duke to ease his suspicions.  This process takes 27 days.

c) Whatever distance the Evil Duke's castle is form the Good Duke (I assumed 5 days but that was in reference to some other fact) then half of that distance is for traveling out of the Good Duke's territory and the other half is for traveling into the Evil Dukes territory (again, assume the castles are roughly in the center of each territory).

D) Intrepid Hero is jailed and then freed in one day.  I am assuming that he is never brought back to the Good Duke's castle to be jailed, but is in his home town in temporary holding.

E) Here is where it gets tricky.  The Evil Duke has kidnapped the daughter 31 days ago by now.  Fro you description your Evil Duke was intent on attacking the Good Duke from the beginning.  If this is the case, then the Evil Duke would have sent messengers out to various retainers to send their troops to his castle.  I assume this because it allows the Evil Duke to disguise his intentions as opposed to gathering on the border between the two duchies.  

F) You're stating that it took 16 days for the Evil Duke's army to make it to the Good Duke's castle.  That would mean that the two castles is separated by 5 or 6 days travel (I recall that it takes three times longer to travel as an army as opposed to a small group or solo).

G) So that would mean that the Evil Duke has an army sitting at his doorsteps for over 30 days.  That is very expensive as he would be responsible for providing provisions and policing the soldiers.  Sanitation would be another concern.  The Evil Duke may delay attacking the Good Duke for some time, but not 30 days.  

H) If the Evil Duke does follow logic the Good Duke wouldn't have a chance to muster his forces.  That is assuming, for some reason, he doesn't have any forces at his castle already (he is a duke with a castle, he has to have some defenders!)

I)  It would make sense that the Good Duke would be under siege for 16 days sending out messengers for aid.  The retainers would come 16 days later, a timeframe you desire.

J)  If the Evil Duke doesn't follow logic you need to explain why he is willing to hold back attacking the Good Duke for so long and why he is tolerating the expenses.

K)  One other point.  If the Good Duke suspects dark intentions from the Evil Duke he would send an scouts to his border to keep an eye on the suspicious army.  This would allow for him to call in the closer retainers that would have been put on alert at the first sign of suspicion.  

I hope that helps


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## BWFoster78 (May 9, 2012)

Ankari,

That is a good analysis, and it does help.

I may have to alter the timeline.  I'd prefer for the enemy army to arrive after Our Intrepid Hero, so I'd have to alter the hero's timeline.  The seven day journey is already a little on the short side.  I could, I guess, have him dreaming for 20 days instead of 30.  That would put him at the castle 10 days earlier.

If the Evil Duke sends out his messengers at about the same time he hears back that the kidnap attempt is successful, that might work to give me time as well.  It would take another 12 days at best (assume 6 day ride between castles) for the Good Duke to get any inkling of what's going on.  The Evil Duke's men, however, are quicker to muster since they are on alert.  Ten days to muster and sixteen days to march gives me 26 days from the kidnapping to the attack, and I can put the hero there at day 24 pretty easily by altering the length of the dreams.  

That gives the duke 14 days of mustering.  Troops from towns about 4 to 5 days out could conceivably make it in small groups if they're in a hurry.  I think it would be reasonable for about half the army to get there.  What do you think?

Thanks again.


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## Ankari (May 9, 2012)

> That gives the duke 14 days of mustering. Troops from towns about 4 to 5 days out could conceivably make it in small groups if they're in a hurry. I think it would be reasonable for about half the army to get there. What do you think?



Yes.  Especially if you have scouts patrolling on the border between the two duchies.  If the Good Duke placed the towns between both Duchies on alert, the scouts, on their way back to warn the Good Duke, could stop through each town and tell them of the impending attack, ordering those retainers to ride to the castle ASAP.

Also the scouts could have carrier pigeons that would allow for the Good Duke to receive word of the attack before the scouts reach the castle.  Especially since they would be stopping along the road to muster what troops they can.  This could give the Good Duke some time to call in troops from the opposite direction, at least those within a day's ride of the castle.  Now you have a decent force that will give the Evil Duke a hard time during the siege or enough troops to meet the Evil Duke on the field.  Remember, the Good Duke has to have a contingent of troops in his own castle.  With the towns on alert, the scouts and the carrier pigeons the Good Duke should be able to muster a sizable force to give the Evil Duke a challenge.


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## BWFoster78 (May 9, 2012)

Sounds good.  Thanks again.


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## Leif GS Notae (May 9, 2012)

I might be missing the point here, but what involves your protag into this scenario? He seems like an appendix to this body of work you have. Timeline or no, if you can't make your protag interesting, then all of this is just backstory for a history lesson in another book.

As far as your timeline goes, you'll have to tell us if there are magical means to communicate because mustering can take forever (contrasted to your time frame). There's some missing information here, but maybe I missed it. Otherwise, this seems like a skirmish between two small baronies on the outskirts of a kingdom.


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## BWFoster78 (May 9, 2012)

Leif GS Notae said:


> I might be missing the point here, but what involves your protag into this scenario? He seems like an appendix to this body of work you have. Timeline or no, if you can't make your protag interesting, then all of this is just backstory for a history lesson in another book.
> 
> As far as your timeline goes, you'll have to tell us if there are magical means to communicate because mustering can take forever (contrasted to your time frame). There's some missing information here, but maybe I missed it. Otherwise, this seems like a skirmish between two small baronies on the outskirts of a kingdom.



Leif,

The story doesn't involve much of the skirmishing or the spies or any of this until the protagonist arrives at the castle.  I was asking the question because I needed to have the answers whether I tell them to the reader or not.  I don't want to write my book and have someone say "hey, how'd that army get there so fast?" and not have an answer for them.  Just part of my process.

Thank you for your interest.


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## ThinkerX (May 10, 2012)

Hmm...things that leap to my mind.

First off, both Dukes are going to have spies in each others courts.  That is pretty much a given.  How effective those spies are is going to be another matter.   Still, even a less than alert or poorly placed spy in Evil Dukes court is going to know about the muster within a day or so of it happening - tops.  (Unless its not at the castle - see point 2).

Second, Evil Duke organizing the muster at his own castle...isn't a real bright move for a sneak attack.  Mustering the troops somewhere off the beaten path just a bit would be a better option.  

Third, once good duke gets word the invasion is coming, he would have to be a complete flaming idiot to *not* attempt some sort of delaying action.  If he's suspected Evil Duke of bad intent for a while (which he should, from his spies), then he probably has a couple of 'delay and harass' plans ready to go on an instants notice pretty much.  The idea being to buy time.

Fourth, whats the terrain like, and condition of the roads?  If the terrain is even a little on the rough side, you could forget either army going cross country - that would be the province of small groups.

Fifth, the notion of a third party deliberately trying to start a war between the two duchies sounds much more interesting than straight Evil Duke vs Good Duke.


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## Caged Maiden (May 10, 2012)

Admittedly, I skimmed the posts because they were long and I'm sleepy, but I wonder about the dukes.  Dues are usually related by blood to royalty and could ask the aid of their liege if their child is kidnapped.  Also, he's surely got money enough to have every bounty hunter in the land out looking for her.  Have you considered that nobility, while powerful, don't rule over more than their land?  They appear in court because they have a job and duty to their king and for one to raise an army and march on another would surely incite consequences from the other nobles and the king himself.  If a duke got unruly, the king would squash his rebellion and take his land back.  nobles are granted their parcels because of their loyalty.

Perhaps rather than dukes, princes might make more sense.  Germany was split up into several small states for many years and there was warring between them on a small scale before it was united.  Just a suggestion.


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## BWFoster78 (May 10, 2012)

> Second, Evil Duke organizing the muster at his own castle...isn't a real bright move for a sneak attack. Mustering the troops somewhere off the beaten path just a bit would be a better option.



Noted.  Good point.



> Third, once good duke gets word the invasion is coming, he would have to be a complete flaming idiot to *not* attempt some sort of delaying action. If he's suspected Evil Duke of bad intent for a while (which he should, from his spies), then he probably has a couple of 'delay and harass' plans ready to go on an instants notice pretty much. The idea being to buy time.



Good idea.  I like it.



> Fifth, the notion of a third party deliberately trying to start a war between the two duchies sounds much more interesting than straight Evil Duke vs Good Duke.



The more I think about it, the more I'm committed to Evil Duke vs. Good Duke.  The bad guys, an entirely separate kingdom, have killed off the duke in the duchy in question and replaced him with someone loyal to them.  This Evil Duke is now trying to expand their influence even further.

Thanks for your comments.


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## BWFoster78 (May 10, 2012)

> Dues are usually related by blood to royalty and could ask the aid of their liege if their child is kidnapped.



This assumes a lot about the monarch.  I guess my system is modeled more after Dune than medieval nobility.  The monarch is kinda weak and plays the dukes off each other.



> Also, he's surely got money enough to have every bounty hunter in the land out looking for her.



Absolutely, he's using every resource at his disposal.  It's hard to find a single person in a large land, however.  I'm not sure what about my posts implied any differently.



> They appear in court because they have a job and duty to their king and for one to raise an army and march on another would surely incite consequences from the other nobles and the king himself. If a duke got unruly, the king would squash his rebellion and take his land back. nobles are granted their parcels because of their loyalty.



Again, this makes a lot of assumptions based on the use of the single word "duke."  I think it's okay to establish a weak monarchy and let the dukes play.  Again, I reference Dune as a model for my system.

Thanks for the comments.


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## Queshire (May 10, 2012)

This kind of reminds me of feudal japan where the emperor was just a figure head.


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