# Why do we keep using the same races and would people be willing to accept new ones?



## EccentricGentleman (Aug 23, 2014)

I've noticed that across various fantasies created by different people, more or less the same set of magical races is used again and again. IE: elves, dwarfs, orcs, trolls, goblins, some sort of diminutive halfling, etc.
My question is, why is it these same fantasy races are used over and over by different writers? When did somebody establish them as the standard set of fantasy races to be used by all authors?

Also, what is it about them that makes them magical? To me there doesn't seem to be anything magical about Dwarfs, at least in most cases. It is possible that they are not magical in any way and are simply diminutive humans. And while orcs, trolls and goblins are clearly not human, there doesn't seem to be anything about them that ties their existence to the supernatural.

I've been working on my own fantasy novel and in it magical races will mean that certain species of sentience lifeform will have the natural ability to use magic while humans cannot. Sort of like Harry Potter and the difference between wizards and muggles. In some cases their very existence of their species will be tied to magical power.

I'm looking forward to creating my own magical races but at the same time I'm afraid that if I do create entirely new ones, people won't accept them because they are different from the established fantasy races.

Also, I am a big fan of anthropomorphism (Furries) and I plan to base my magical races of humanoids of various animal species. I ran this by my writing teacher once and he was not enthusiastic about the idea at all, in fact he seemed to think it was a bad one, either that or he didn't quite grasp the concept. I think he's said something like, if I have wolf-people in my book then that means I can't have regular wolves in the world I'm creating and so describing their appearance will be much more difficult since I can't use words that the characters don't understand themselves.


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## Sheilawisz (Aug 23, 2014)

Hello, Eccentric Gentleman.

There are many people here in Mythic Scribes that have created Fantasy races and species of their own. It's true that Elves, Dwarfs, Trolls, Centaurs and other types of creatures are very popular, but that does not mean that new creations would be rejected by those who read our stories.

Go ahead, create your own species and have a lot of fun writing about them!

I have a strong liking for furry creatures, also. Many of my stories feature giant wolves in one way or another, and my own Fantasy species, the Aylars, have long furry tails and claws. My wolves are always capable of talking, and they feature magical powers of their own.

Some people prefer stories with the classic Fantasy species, but there are also many others seeking to find original creations.


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## Queshire (Aug 23, 2014)

There was another thread on here recently about the same topic, in particular this thread: http://mythicscribes.com/forums/world-building/3485-why-use-d-d-races-our-stories.html However since that thread has gone on for 20 pages and ended up going off topic a bit, I don't see any problem with this thread.

Races such as Elves, Dwarves, or Orcs are tropes. They are a certain bundle of related ideas which an author can reasonably expect their reader to be familiar with. When you say "Elf" or "Dwarf" your average reader will automatically come up with a mental image to fit the race. Meanwhile if you call your race something random like Vanna then what mental image are the readers supposed to bring up? How are they supposed to picture their appearance, their cities, their cultures? You need to take time and spend words to explain this to the reader so that they are able to build that mental image, and for some authors those are words and time which could be better spent advancing the story.


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## Penpilot (Aug 23, 2014)

Yep, what Queshire said.

Also, those races/creatures are drawn from various mythologies from around the world. Authors can look back at and draw from the long and varied list of myths associated with them, and then do straight up translations or spin things off into their own direction. In either case, the author can use the image associated with the name as a short cut to establish an image of what that creature will look like in the story. Even if say an author's elf looks completely different than a traditional elf, they can contrast their image to the traditional image in order to entrench an picture into the reader's heads.

With that said, there's nothing wrong with creating new races, and I doubt anyone will reject them just because. But the thing is if your creature resembles a traditional one too much, like it's short and lives under a mountain and covets wealth, some readers are going to just say, "Hey, it may be named a Twad, but that's a dwarf."


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## skip.knox (Aug 23, 2014)

The Golden Bough
The Hero With a Thousand Faces

There are reasons why we find the same sort of creatures in multiple cultures. We find talking animals. We find dragons. We find small, sly people who do mischief in remote places or under cover of darkness. We find big scary monsters that lurk in much the same sort of places. They have different names because of the different languages, but the similarities are remarkable. 

People who use orcs and trolls and elves aren't being unoriginal thereby. They are invoking deep-seated archetypes. There is really little difference between that and using the fallen woman or the wisecracking sleuth or the tight-lipped gunslinger. Handled poorly, they are hackneyed stereotypes. Done well, they are memorable tales.

Following the tropes doesn't guarantee triteness. Ignoring the tropes doesn't guarantee breaking new ground. And neither guarantees a good story, alas.

In short, as the others have said: fuggedaboudit. Write what you want to write.


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## Asura Levi (Aug 24, 2014)

As Queshire pointed out, we write about them because we know them. Same as why most of our stories, even fantasy ones, are about human or the very least humanoid. Because we know how we think, how we act.

Also, when you create a whole new race, that is a lot of work to do or else you will get with a "Vanna" who talks like elf, move like elf, lives like elf, is everything a elf but in name. 
(I've done something similar, I created a different elf, give them new name, features, and because they are similar to elves, I made the world 'elf' a slang when referring to them.)

In short, write down what you want. If you do have a different race, don't be afraid of use. Just beware of the Calling a Rabbit a Smeerp troupe.


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## Aspasia (Aug 24, 2014)

skip.knox said:


> Following the tropes doesn't guarantee triteness. Ignoring the tropes doesn't guarantee breaking new ground. And neither guarantees a good story, alas.



I just wanted to say I really like this line, it's very well put.

I often write with a lot of the cliches many people say to avoid. I love high elves, most of my stories have a black-clad assassin or two, it's not unusual for my longer WIPs to have a Chosen One type fighting a Great Evil. Thing is, though, even if I tried, I couldn't make my high elves be the same as Tolkien's. They're _my _high elves. There's always a twist, or an inversion, or a weird element to the cliches I use. Don't be afraid of using cliches, because your own voice _will_ come through when you write them. Or so I believe 

As a reader, I don't really mind whether the author has used trope races, or has made up their own races. Using tropes does give me a "template" for what you're trying to portray -- if you say Elf, I'm going to be surprised if they mine under mountains and have thick beards. But remember it is just a template, I don't have a fully-fledged view of the race in _your _story, and you as the author can't ignore that. Making up a new race, you have to give me everything as I won't have a clue what to expect when they come in. If you make it clear and describe / explain them well, I don't see any difference between using a "standard" race or a completely new one, in terms of reader acceptance. 

After all, telling me "NAME was an Elf." doesn't say much really. There are so many types of elves! Should I picture a wild elf, a sea elf, a short mischevious trickster, a Tolkienesque high elf ... ? It DOES tell me NAME is humaoid and probably has at least human-level intelligence, is probably magical, and probably lives for a long time, but the rest depends on your story and your setting! You do have more work if you say "NAME was a Vanna."  I will at least need a rough sketch of what the heck a "Vanna" is. But really, you need to build your races whether or not you use tropes, if you do it well there really isn't much difference.


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## skip.knox (Aug 25, 2014)

I, too, love high elves. It's why I keep buying them acid.


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## Queshire (Aug 25, 2014)

skip.knox said:


> I, too, love high elves. It's why I keep buying them acid.



-50 Queshire points for bad joke.


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## Feo Takahari (Aug 25, 2014)

EccentricGentleman said:


> I'm looking forward to creating my own magical races but at the same time I'm afraid that if I do create entirely new ones, people won't accept them because they are different from the established fantasy races.



If nothing else, I can allay some concerns about that.








(Courtesy of Slightly Damned)







(Courtesy of Digger)







(Courtesy of Monsterkind)

And yes, one of those is technically a fire demon, and yes, another has some similarities to a dwarf, but they're all reshaped and rewritten in new and interesting ways, and they've all acquired a fanbase.


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## Steerpike (Aug 25, 2014)

There are plenty of books with different races from the standard fantasy fare. That said, you can tell an infinite number of excellent stories just using the stock fantasy races, and if that's what you want to write then there is no reason you shouldn't.

Outside of fantasy, broadly defined, think of all the stories that are told with just one race - humans.


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## Philip Overby (Aug 25, 2014)

If you don't want to read fantasy with standard races, here are some writers you might like:

Kameron Hurley (has mostly humans, but has a world powered by bugs, so bugs become like their own main race)
China Mieville (all sorts of weird junk)
Steven Erikson (although his races are essentially standard races but ten times cooler)
Richard K. Morgan (has lizard people but they're a gillion times creepier to me)

I sometimes use standard races, but I find recently I'm coming up with some "sort of" new ones. Mostly they're just Lovecraftian nightmares, giant cats, or celestial-like beings born in litters from a witch's barren womb, but hell, I'm trying. 

Those are just some off hand. I could probably think of others, but it's late. Basically, if the word "elf" or "orc" evokes bad feelings in you as a reader or writer, seek out writers that go further away from medieval fantasy.


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## Aspasia (Aug 25, 2014)

Philip Overby said:


> Kameron Hurley (has mostly humans, but has a world powered by bugs, so bugs become like their own main race)



Reminded me of Shadows of the Apt, a series which has a bunch of races based on bugs! You have Beetle people, Mantis people, Spiders, Wasps, Bees, Ants, etc etc ... very creative, and very well done. I love how the author gives each "race" certain characteristics from the insect they're derived from ... yet they're all humanoid. Empire in Black and Gold is the first book. Despite the unusual setup, it didn't take long for me to be as comfortable with, say, Wasps and Spiders as it does for more "standard" fantasy races. And this series uses a LOT of bug races, all different .


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## Hainted (Aug 26, 2014)

My biggest problem with original races comes from the descriptions people use. It's always either calling a rabbit a smeerp( i.e. they're like elves, but pink with owl eyes, and bat wings for ears so I call them Boondogglers) or it tends to fall into they're anthropomorphic animals.( I didn't want to have a clichÃ©d fantasy setting so instead of Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs I have Cat people, Dog People, and Lizard people). Also a large amount of them tend to wear either a Black Hat or White Hat.(They're Scholars, no Warriors, no Religious Fanatics, cause that's original.)

I'm not saying it can't work, but if you really want to be original, you have to be willing to put in a lot of work.


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## Jabrosky (Aug 26, 2014)

Nothing necessarily wrong with using any of the classic races in your story if that's what you really want to do, but their recurrence in the genre might have something to do with its prevailing Eurocentrism. Most fantasy races that we recognize are derived from Northern European traditions with maybe a smattering of Greco-Roman influences (e.g. centaurs). That's all well and good if you prefer the standard European-based settings, but if you would rather borrow races from established mythology outside that mold, you'll do well to look at non-European traditions. Why not experiment with, say, the Congolese _wakyambi_ ("Heaven People") or the Malian _tyerkow_ (skin-shedding blood-drinkers)?

Though come to think of it, if you decide to modify these races in any way as is routinely done with elves and orcs, would people perceive that as cultural appropriation?


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## Feo Takahari (Aug 27, 2014)

There does seem to be one huge exception to the northern Europe rule, and that's races that wound up in _Dungeons and Dragons_. Nagas, kelpies, even rakshasas appeared in D&D, then spread to other works. (There are other vectors--dullahans appeared everywhere for a while after one was a popular character in an anime called _Durarara_--but D&D is the most prominent I can think of.)

Of course, if you really want to use stuff from all over the globe, _Shin Megami Tensei_ is a good point of inspiration. So many different mythologies, mixed and matched . . .


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## Philip Overby (Aug 27, 2014)

Hainted said:


> My biggest problem with original races comes from the descriptions people use. It's always either calling a rabbit a smeerp( i.e. they're like elves, but pink with owl eyes, and bat wings for ears so I call them Boondogglers) or it tends to fall into they're anthropomorphic animals.( I didn't want to have a clichÃ©d fantasy setting so instead of Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs I have Cat people, Dog People, and Lizard people). Also a large amount of them tend to wear either a Black Hat or White Hat.(They're Scholars, no Warriors, no Religious Fanatics, cause that's original.)
> 
> I'm not saying it can't work, but if you really want to be original, you have to be willing to put in a lot of work.



I struggle to think of any truly original depictions of fantasy races in stories. You're always going to have to pull from reality or myth one way or another. Even the examples I listed above are different versions of things that already exist. 

You have to make races that somehow can relate to a human reader. That means giving them characteristics that someone can imagine. They have to have personalities, cultures, physical traits, etc. Almost anything that can be dreamed up can be said to be "unoriginal." I think the key for creating interesting fantasy races is to figure out what makes your version stand out just a bit more.

For example, I'm going to design my version of "cat people."

1. They're all green, have no eyes, and communicate through an elaborate combination of hissing and purring.
2. 1 in every 10,000 cat people has "devil powers" meaning they can summon up devils from the 9th Hell to do their bidding in every day. These devils vary from being diminutive to over nine feet tall, depending on the age of the cat person. 
3. Cat people must kill and eat their enemies after a battle. This is part of their religion of worshiping the Giant Hairball. Once the flesh is digested, the hair and bones are spat out and kept inside large shrines inside their homes.
4. Cat people are master politicians in that they never tell the truth about anything. This makes it so the cities and settlements they build collapse every couple of decades. Most cat people are nomadic and cultural leeches, absorbing the dress and mannerisms of those they blend in with. 
5. Cat people are very poor at math in general and make horrible merchants. 

So this here version of cat people would probably be a lot different from someone else's version of cat people. As long as it's interesting and relevant to the story being told, I don't think it really matters if it's 100 percent original.


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## Chessie (Aug 27, 2014)

EccentricGentleman said:


> Also, I am a big fan of anthropomorphism (Furries) and I plan to base my magical races of humanoids of various animal species.


This right here. If you wrote a story about a race of magical chickens, I'd read it. Animals are a great fit for this because no one is really expecting them to have civilizations. And don't worry about your writing teacher. There's definitely readers out there who are interested in stranger styles of fantasy. So, like everyone else has mentioned, write your passion. You can make it work.

You *can* have regular wolves in your story and wolf people. Werewolves, for example, are different than the animals. They can co-exist (totally thinking of Skyrim right now where the werewolf character can summon wolves). 

Personally, I like my elves and orcs in D&D, video games, and LOTR. I don't normally read fantasy works that have those races in them. Probably because a lot of fantasy literature these days seems repetitive to me. I also write only human races with the exception of faeries, because I couldn't help myself. But there's a lot of "different" stuff out there too, so definitely there's a market for your wolf people.

I think what makes the tropes magical is that they're different from humans. We don't have pointy ears, green skin, or work in mines under mountains (hopefully). The point of the fantasy genre is to alter the realistic. And as everyone else here has said, those tropes make it easier for authors to take readers into a fantasy realm without the extra work of explaining why their ethereal race of people are anything other than elves.

I also love furries. My WIP features a talking bear and the protagonist can communicate with animals. She also has a wolf familiar. So yes, there are many writers here that don't necessarily use tropes. A great word of advice I received the other day was to figure out what kind of writer I want to be in the fantasy genre. What would you like to represent?


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## skip.knox (Aug 27, 2014)

It struck me, reading this thread, that most of the non-European non-human races I know about (trying to get this as specific as possible) are wicked. They're monsters or at least mischievous.

You folks who have wandered off into other continents, what have you found along the lines of, say, High Elves? That is, races (not unique creatures) who are Good, or Wise, or would otherwise fall into the Lawful Good quadrant?


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## Feo Takahari (Aug 27, 2014)

skip.knox said:


> You folks who have wandered off into other continents, what have you found along the lines of, say, High Elves? That is, races (not unique creatures) who are Good, or Wise, or would otherwise fall into the Lawful Good quadrant?



Nagas can be nice, depending on the myth, and djinn have the free will to choose between good and evil. Apsaras are also pretty okay, though I don't see those very much.


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## Hainted (Aug 27, 2014)

Jabrosky said:


> Though come to think of it, if you decide to modify these races in any way as is routinely done with elves and orcs, would people perceive that as cultural appropriation?



When I brought up the idea of Ethnically, and Culturally diverse fantasy races.(i.e. Elves would have multiple civilizations, and diverse looks so that, much like Human, a Liosaelfa, a Mannegishi, and a Quinametzin, while all Elves, are as different as a Viking, a Cree Indian, and an Aztec. I was accused of everything from cultural appropriation to colonialism.


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## Devor (Aug 27, 2014)

I could be wrong, or maybe it's just me, but I think our propensity towards those familiar races stems a lot from the artwork we see in places like D&D.  We've seen those races "made real" in some way, and so have our readers. They've become familiar in ways that we can take advantage of in a story.

There's also the whole, "Why reinvent the wheel?"

I do wonder, though.  Most of the stock races stem from mythology. Is there an author besides Tolkein that's added to the grand list of stock fantasy races?


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## Feo Takahari (Aug 27, 2014)

Devor said:


> I do wonder, though.  Most of the stock races stem from mythology. Is there an author besides Tolkein that's added to the grand list of stock fantasy races?



Dungeons and Dragons definitely made some additions (like beholders.) Gnolls come from a book by Lord Dunsany, and I think the modern idea of lizardfolk stems back to Robert E. Howard (though I've had a little difficulty determining the first example of that.) Also, catfolk don't stem from any mythology I know of, so they must have an inventor somewhere.

Of course, a big issue with new additions to "stock races" is copyright. Catfolk and lizardfolk are general enough to be modified into all sorts of technically "distinct" races, but beholders are still under copyright. Most works that use beholders are fancomics, freeware games, and other works that just plain don't care about copyright law.


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## Shreddies (Aug 27, 2014)

Feo Takahari said:


> Also, catfolk don't stem from any mythology I know of, so they must have an inventor somewhere.



I always assumed cat-folk had their roots in Cait Sidhe or Bakeneko or something similar (Or Bast for that matter.  ). But I don't know if those would constitute a race.


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## SeverinR (Sep 5, 2014)

What ever your world is filled with, make it yours.
Do not make carbon copies of anyone elses work. 

If you make elves, make them your elves, not D&D,Tolken or Santa Clauses.

If you have orcs, make them your orcs.

But just making a pointy eared long lived humanoid that loves art and good with a bow, and calling them "Agloids" as an example, is really just calling an elf a Agloid. People would more receptive to see how your "elf" differs from the traditional then to take a hundred pages to figure out Agloids are just elves by a different name.

As I said at the start, anything in your world needs to be yours. But it can still be called traditional names.

I believe a writer can use any race of creature they want.  I tried to write a story about centaurs. It was a tough story to write.  whole town built for Centaurs, not humans.  It was like trying to think in a different number system.  Our world is built for our comfort, horse people would have everything built for them.  I figured they would build stick homes and have large doors. (honey! the colt is eating the walls again)  Being grazing animals they would spend most of the time outside. (omnivoure but need alot of fiber)

If your race is much different then biped humanoids, you will have to consider how to change our world to make them comfortable in it, and show the reader how it is different then ours.


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## Bortasz (Sep 5, 2014)

Just little notice. You can use all race that are not under Copy Right Protection. Beholders Ilithids does where invented by D&D and are of limit.


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## WooHooMan (Sep 5, 2014)

So, can I use Vikings?

I got a race based on Vikings.  Can I just go ahead and call them "Vikings"?
Nowadays, Vikings are as much an archetype as a historic subgroup of Norse culture.   And people use "paladins" and "templars" and "elves" outside of their original context.

Sorry if this question doesn't fit in this thread but I didn't think this query called for a separate thread.


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## D. Gray Warrior (Sep 10, 2014)

I have a couple of questions. In my fantasy story, there are three human ethnicities: A Caucasian people called the Fair People, and Asian people called the Yellow People, and Caucasian/Asian blend called the Mixed People. I am afraid these names sound too racist. I don't want to use names like Asian or European since those don't exist in my world. Any suggestions for alternatives?

Another question, what purpose could wyverns serve? I want my MC to fight one, but I want wyverns to exist for other reasons than just for my protagonist to have something to fight.


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## Bortasz (Sep 10, 2014)

WooHooMan said:


> So, can I use Vikings?
> 
> I got a race based on Vikings.  Can I just go ahead and call them "Vikings"?
> Nowadays, Vikings are as much an archetype as a historic subgroup of Norse culture.   And people use "paladins" and "templars" and "elves" outside of their original context.
> ...



Vikings are are okey in terms of using it. Nobody have right to them


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## Bortasz (Sep 10, 2014)

D. Gray Warrior said:


> I have a couple of questions. In my fantasy story, there are three human ethnicities: A Caucasian people called the Fair People, and Asian people called the Yellow People, and Caucasian/Asian blend called the Mixed People. I am afraid these names sound too racist. I don't want to use names like Asian or European since those don't exist in my world. Any suggestions for alternatives?
> 
> Another question, what purpose could wyverns serve? I want my MC to fight one, but I want wyverns to exist for other reasons than just for my protagonist to have something to fight.



They are 

Kaitan - For asia. 
Caucasian are white because they live in place where is not many sunlight. North in the most cases. Maybe Northmen?


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## Steerpike (Sep 10, 2014)

Feo Takahari said:


> Of course, a big issue with new additions to "stock races" is copyright. Catfolk and lizardfolk are general enough to be modified into all sorts of technically "distinct" races, but beholders are still under copyright. Most works that use beholders are fancomics, freeware games, and other works that just plain don't care about copyright law.



The enforceability of copyright claims to those creatures, at least in any broad sense, is highly suspect. If you have a beholder-like monster in a book, or something like a mind-flayer, it may be that Wizards of the Coast has a hard time making this claim. In fact, WotC seems to recognize this, because in their Open Game License, they specifically go out of the way to have the licensee acknowledge certain creatures like Illithids as "Product Identity," and to agree not to use them, which wouldn't be necessary if WotC had strong non-contractual claims to the creatures.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Sep 10, 2014)

Bortasz said:


> They are  Kaitan - For asia.
> Caucasian are white because they live in place where is not many sunlight. North in the most cases. Maybe Northmen?



The way I understand it, skin pigmentation (not tanning of the skin) is regulated by the pineal hormone melatonin. 

Purportedly, this has a racial effect as well as an aged-based effect. The reduction of active melatonin as we age, accounts for the pale skin tones of the elderly. 

Yes, lack of direct sunlight can impact skin tone. However, it is not the primary factor.


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## Bortasz (Sep 10, 2014)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> The way I understand it, skin pigmentation (not tanning of the skin) is regulated by the pineal hormone melatonin.
> 
> Purportedly, this has a racial effect as well as an aged-based effect. The reduction of active melatonin as we age, accounts for the pale skin tones of the elderly.
> 
> Yes, lack of direct sunlight can impact skin tone. However, it is not the primary factor.



You are correct to certain degree. 

All homo Sapiens Sapiens come from Africa. But European are White, and African are Black. And the reason is Sunlight Vitamin D and Melatonin. 

Since Ancestors of European move away from equator they have access to less sunlight through the year than people that stay Africa. 

But we need sunlight to be healthy. Sunlight produce vitamin D in our skin. So people with whiter skin, who can more fully use the sunlight are more healthy than people who have darker skin. 

In Africa the opposite was true. There was too many sunlight. And since overdoes of water can kill you, overdoes of vitamin D is not good for you. The darker skin people were more healthy than people with white skin collor. 

Now Our bodies can adapt to certain degree that's way white people can take sun bath and go bronze with there skin. 

Also notice. Europe White people. Middle East Brown People. Africa Black people. more closer to equator darker the skin tone.


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## Mythopoet (Sep 10, 2014)

D. Gray Warrior said:


> I have a couple of questions. In my fantasy story, there are three human ethnicities: A Caucasian people called the Fair People, and Asian people called the Yellow People, and Caucasian/Asian blend called the Mixed People. I am afraid these names sound too racist. I don't want to use names like Asian or European since those don't exist in my world. Any suggestions for alternatives?



I think it does sound racist. Fair can mean "not dark", but this is actually the ninth definition on M-W. So by calling them the Fair People the connotation is not just that they are light skinned, but also that they are pleasant to look at, honest in their dealings, and so on. Compare that to Yellow People, which will bring to mind the racist "yellow devils" and such and consider that "yellow" is often associated with cowardice. Your Yellow People are coming off a lot worse. Furthermore, I've never understood the "Asian=yellow" thing anyway. I mean, look at Asian people. They aren't yellow anymore than I am actually white. (I always tell my daughter we are "peach". That was the crayon color I used for people when I was little.) They are just a lighter brown than other ethnicities.


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## D. Gray Warrior (Sep 10, 2014)

Okay, I renamed by Fair People the North People and the Yellow People are now called the Shinzu (it is the only Asian sounding name I could think of that I like)


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## Jabrosky (Sep 10, 2014)

Technically almost all of the conventional color names for the various "races" of humanity are inaccurate to one degree or another. Most Africans are really shades of brown, most Europeans are pinkish-beige or maybe tan, and so forth. It does seem strange that White and Black are conventionally acceptable whereas Yellow and Red have acquired offensive connotations.

Personally I would advise using continental, regional, or maybe ethnic labels to address different "races" of humanity in a fantasy world if you must.


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## Trick (Sep 10, 2014)

Jabrosky said:


> It does seem strange that White and Black are conventionally acceptable whereas Yellow and Red have acquired offensive connotations.



I think it's like Mythopoet said, Yellow has the connotation of cowardice. I also think of Red as the color of violence. White and Black are more universal, I think; it almost like they apply too broadly to so many different things that they are more casually accepted even when they're technically innaccurate. Though, I have to say, I hate checking the White box to identify my race on paperwork. There's this long list of unique, culturally identified races and then 'WHITE.' How boring! I wish there was a box that said 'IRISH AMERICAN.' That is a box I'd be proud to check.


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## EJWrites (Sep 11, 2014)

One way to be original is to take traditional fantasy races and mix it up. Desert Elves, Elves that live in a desert and maybe are similar to a Persian, or Arabic culture, for example. Maybe Sea Dwarves, Dwarves who've taken to the sea, and perhaps they are marauding pirates. Just a few ideas.


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## WooHooMan (Sep 11, 2014)

EJWrites said:


> One way to be original is to take traditional fantasy races and mix it up. Desert Elves, Elves that live in a desert and maybe are similar to a Persian, or Arabic culture, for example. Maybe Sea Dwarves, Dwarves who've taken to the sea, and perhaps they are marauding pirates. Just a few ideas.



But then you get the purist who say "these aren't TRUE elves/dwarves, you should call them something else!"
But then if you play too close to convention, you get the "fiction savvy" crowd who say "this is cliche and therefore bad!"

You can't please everyone, the best course of action is to just not care about appearing cliche or original and just do what's good for the story.  That's my opinion.

Coincidentally, I'm doing Desert Elves.  But they're more based on Native Americans.


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## FatCat (Sep 11, 2014)

I think this is the major problem that any genre finds, when does accepting the norms that make that genre what it is clash with ingenuity and creation? Though fantasy seems so prone to this enigma, what is the established culture versus what the individual writer attempts to create. With any conformity to these norms, you have to balance actual meaning to interpretation. You can have desert elves, as long as they're xenophobic, arrogant, in-tune with their enviroment and have pointed ears. Then again, you can go completely against those ideas and make a race of thick-skinned warriors more interested in displaying the teeth of their opponents in a set of armor. 

But then, if you go the later route, why use the term elves? I think modern fantasy is experiencing a divergent away from the traditional norms and is going the path of the ironic use of those terms or just throwing them away all-together. 

Though, to be honest, fantasy should be just that in my opinion; an idea expressed through the terms of a  completely fictional world that hints at real-world issues without addressing them head-on. Though the tropes exist, I see fantasy progressing away from the DnD character sheets into a world of metaphorical value and substance.


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## Bortasz (Sep 11, 2014)

1. There are people (Social justice Warriors and Professional Victims) that will find offensive everywhere. 
2, The goal is not to make of yourself a easy target.


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## FatCat (Sep 11, 2014)

This is cowardly, imo. SJWs are a far-left sect that can condemn whoever they want under the terms of ambiguity. I highly doubt the majority of free-thinkers believe in their propaganda.


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## Bortasz (Sep 11, 2014)

FatCat said:


> This is cowardly, imo. SJWs are a far-left sect that can condemn whoever they want under the terms of ambiguity. I highly doubt the majority of free-thinkers believe in their propaganda.



The problem is not if somebody believe them. 

It is: How much problems (Death thread harassment ) they create. Being accuse of racist is dangerous in some part of the world. And it is stigma that is very hard to wash away. 

And it is not cowardly. When i walk through street I check left and right even when I have green. This is because I know that there are morons on the street, and I prefer do not have problem with them. 

Also the free thinkers are minority in all societies. Most people have other stuff on thee mind to check the news they are serve in TV.


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## Mythopoet (Sep 11, 2014)

I wrote a blog post yesterday on the subject of this thread after thinking about it for a while:

https://sarahmccabemythopoet.wordpress.com/2014/09/10/worldbuilding-wednesday-fantasy-races/

My take is basically this:

1. There's a huge amount of variety out there in fantasy races, even when those races share the same name they are often very diverse in their characteristics. 

2. The reason the same races do pop up, at least in name, over and over is simple: mythology. Fantasy is the new mythology and so mythology is the foundation of fantasy. These races all come from mythology. 

3. Authors use these races because 1. they really like these mythological races and want to write about them 2. it's a way to participate in the creation of mythology as a human cultural phenomenon 3. like it or not, it really is easier for many readers to believe in a secondary world if it's full of fantastical things that are nevertheless familiar.

4. This is not something new fantasy writers should scoff at. (more on that in a future post)


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## WooHooMan (Sep 11, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> 2. The reason the same races do pop up, at least in name, over and over is simple: mythology. Fantasy is the new mythology and so mythology is the foundation of fantasy. These races all come from mythology.



I did a short story some time ago were Dwarves had grass hair, lived in swamps and spoke to spirits.  Everyone who read it commented how bizarre and random that was even though it comes straight from mythology (central African mythology to be specific).
Then you get people using Tolkien or Lovecraft or whatever races while under the impression that they have some basis in actual mythology.

There's a point where mythology stops mattering and it just becomes whatever interpretation readers are familiar with.  Which is unreliable since different readers are exposed to different things.
I guess that's part of the transition from old mythology to modern mythology (aka fantasy fiction).



> 3. Authors use these races because ... like it or not, it really is easier for many readers to believe in a secondary world if it's full of fantastical things that are nevertheless familiar.



If there is a single answer to the thread title's question, this is probably it


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