# Question about POV Character in an Upcoming Series



## BWFoster78 (Jul 23, 2015)

How do you feel about the protagonist (the lone POV character in this case) in the first book not being the protagonist for the second book? NOTE: both protagonists appear in both books and the sequel is not a retelling.

I'm pretty sure I've encountered this before as a reader and did not like it.  However, it's really where my thoughts are leading me.


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## Trick (Jul 23, 2015)

I'd think it would work a lot better if you at least have book 2's protag as a POV briefly in the first book and vice versa. That would flow better in my opinion. It would feel very disconnected if the only POV of book 1 was never a POV character in book 2.


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## Noma Galway (Jul 23, 2015)

If it's made clear why the shift happened, I wouldn't have a problem with it. There would definitely be a disconnect, but that could be used to your advantage, theoretically.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 23, 2015)

Trick,

How about if I do an Epilogue in the first book from the book 2 protagonist's POV?

Still, though, my main concern is that, when there's a single POV character in the first book, I connect the whole series to that protagonist.  For example, Wearing the Cape is about a superhero named Astra.  Harmon wrote a follow up book featuring a side character, Artemis.  Though I've read the rest of the series, I never even bothered to look at the spinoff.

Is that just me?


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## Trick (Jul 23, 2015)

Well, maybe. The Shannara books do this but it is thematic. Each book is from a new POV, typically the next in a generation of one family. Though those books get a bad rap, they did sell pretty well at one time. 

I think the part that would be weird is the only POV character of book one never being a POV character in book 2. It wouldn't feel like book two, it will feel like a spinoff as you described. 

The epilogue thing would help I think but I'd still feel disconnected from book 1, especially if I really like MC #1. I'd be like, "What the hell, why is he in the background all of a sudden." It's almost like a promise to the reader being broken between books. 

You could make it go a lot smoother with the right titles and finding ways to make it clear that book two is basically about someone else.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 23, 2015)

Trick,

Hmmm.

I think the Epilogue idea is a good one either way, as I know exactly what it wants to be and how it would both sum up the first book and be a great lead in for the next.

As for the second, maybe I can make it from both POVs?  I'm better at that anyway.  It feels weird keeping to a single one after using eight in _Rise_.


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## Trick (Jul 23, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> As for the second, maybe I can make it from both POVs?



I would say absolutely yes to this but it's pure opinion. With one POV in book one being carried over to the 2nd book, the gap is bridged even if they become a secondary character.


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## Kobun (Jul 23, 2015)

I'd personally have to see how it was handled to say how I felt about it, but gut reaction is that I'm not crazy about the idea without really strong in-story justification. Trick's suggestions of use of the epilogue would go a long way toward helping readers through the transition - otherwise, it'd be too jarring. Readers become invested in the POV character, and if their story isn't completed the reader will begin to wonder why the camera focus has been taken off of them.


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## evolution_rex (Jul 23, 2015)

It's something I've certainly though about in the past and I think it's totally doable as long as the main character of the second book is as or better of a character than the first.


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## Ankari (Jul 23, 2015)

What's your reasoning for stepping away from your protagonist's POV in Book 2?


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 23, 2015)

Ankari,

Unresolved love story at the end of book 1.  Kinda want to show the girl's perspective in the second book.

EDIT: One of my biggest weaknesses as a writer is showing the emotions of the non-POV character, which just doesn't work out well, from experience, when the storyline is romance-heavy.


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## Ankari (Jul 23, 2015)

I see. Well, withholding a PoV character is best used to create a sense of mystery about that person. I don't see why withholding his PoV is needed to show her PoV.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 23, 2015)

Ankari said:


> I see. Well, withholding a PoV character is best used to create a sense of mystery about that person. I don't see why withholding his PoV is needed to show her PoV.



Ankari,

I guess my thinking process with this series is that, in contrast to my epic fantasy, the first book is Zack's story, not the story of a cast of characters.  Though he's got a crush on Hayli, the story is about what happens to Zack.

I thought it might be interesting to have the second book be Hayli's story ...


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## cupiscent (Jul 23, 2015)

I think this sounds great, as long as, like you say, the second book is Hayli's story.  Like always with POV, you want to make sure you're picking the most compelling viewpoint for this scene or story. If the whole thing is Zack's story and you're just going to use Hayli as a viewpoint for book 2, I'm not sure it's going to work so well.


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## Ankari (Jul 23, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> I guess my thinking process with this series is that, in contrast to my epic fantasy, the first book is Zack's story, not the story of a cast of characters.  Though he's got a crush on Hayli, the story is about what happens to Zack.
> 
> I thought it might be interesting to have the second book be Hayli's story ...



So, the second book would be the same events of book 1, but from Hayli's PoV?


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## Trick (Jul 23, 2015)

Ankari said:


> So, the second book would be the same events of book 1, but from Hayli's PoV?



I think his first post said the second book is not a retelling.


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## Feo Takahari (Jul 23, 2015)

Since you're talking superheroes, my mind immediately jumped to _Those Who Walk in Darkness_ and _What Fire Cannot Burn_. The first book is Soledad's descent from bigoted but honorable to openly genocidal. By the second book, she's incapable of further development, having reached a low point from which there's no believable way to redeem her. The story starts pushing more POV onto Eddie, who'd previously been a secondary character, and then Soledad dies suddenly and anticlimactically and the rest of the book is Eddie's story. It was a bit jarring, but I feel like a change of perspective was the only way the series could continue.


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## Ankari (Jul 23, 2015)

So he did. Alright. I would be bothered. I know you're (Brian) a fan of the WoT series. How much did it bother you when long stretches of the book never entered Rand's, Matt's, Perrin's (or anyone else's) PoV? Now imagine a whole book like that. It would frustrate me to no end.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 23, 2015)

Ankari said:


> So he did. Alright. I would be bothered. I know you're (Brian) a fan of the WoT series. How much did it bother you when long stretches of the book never entered Rand's, Matt's, Perrin's (or anyone else's) PoV? Now imagine a whole book like that. It would frustrate me to no end.



Ankari,

Really, WoT's POV absences didn't bother me all that much.  And, really, if Elaine and Egwene were in the same scene, did it matter from which POV the scene was told?

That being said, as I stated in the original post, I think this would bother me.

Two things I've learned though:

1. I should question doing anything in a book that I personally would not like.
2. I should not assume my reader would like or not like something just because of the way I feel.

Anyway, I think the solution of 1st including Hayli's POV in the Epilogue of the first book and 2nd splitting the POV in the second book makes some sense.  The problem, then, however becomes: what if the two of them don't end up getting together?

I'm rooting for those crazy kids, but it's not clear to me how their situation is resolved.  And since the genre isn't actually romance, I'm not tied to a HEA.


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## Ankari (Jul 23, 2015)

> Really, WoT's POV absences didn't bother me all that much. And, really, if Elaine and Egwene were in the same scene, *did it matter from which POV the scene was told?*



But this entire thread is asking just that.

In book 1, you created a character that reader (hopefully) empathizes with. You introduce a second book, the hooked reader cheers, and now you're taking away the PoV the reader is accustomed to and is comfortable. Doesn't this produce an _increased chance_ of the reader putting the book down in frustration?

I've read stories where the PoV has changed. It's usually because the primary PoV has died, or is no longer part of the story. But this is not the case in your story. I would just have both PoV present in both books.


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 24, 2015)

I hope not, because I have characters who appear in one book as POV characters and then they are background characters in a later story...or stories.  I'm not sure if we're talking apples and apples though.  As in, in my stories, years pass between books and the lovers in book seven are married and their son is a POV character in book 8, but the parents appear in the story, though in smaller roles.  For me, that's just the natural progression of time and stories.  If your (Brian's) story is like that, as in, book one has an ending and then book two begins sometime after book one ends, I think changing POV is okay.  If book one has no clear ending and book two picks up right after book one ends...it could be problematic.  

The thing is, one of my favorite series never used the same POV character twice.  Piers Anthony's Xanth series had so many POV characters, and the stories spanned many generations, so it was a lineage for a long time, too, not just new characters.

My fourth book is a love story similar to how this one sounds.  The young man is the initial POV character and he meets a girl who he has all these weird feeling for, sometimes attraction, sometimes a sobering form of revulsion (because she doesn't fit his fanatical religious ideal of what a woman should be).  Anyways, the girl has some secrets, so I don't use her as a POV character until halfway through the book.  I haven't really edited the manuscript, but I was always concerned for whether that would work.  I mean, did I wait too long to use her?  Or should I try to abandon her POV entirely?  Some of what her POV shows can't be shown any other way...do I go omniscient?  Tricky.

Anyways, I wasn't entirely sure how exactly your two books flowed one into the other, so I tried to give my best interpretation of what I'd consider, anyways.


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## Kobun (Jul 24, 2015)

So, basically it can be done. In circumstances it can be done well. But there's a question we all need to ask regarding ANYTHING we do in our books: Is this necessary for the story? I can't answer that question for Foster or anyone else. Either this is going to be a kill your darlings scenario or you need to find a way to make the POV shift absolutely necessary to the plot.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 24, 2015)

> But this entire thread is asking just that.



Let me try to clarify: WoT is an epic fantasy that is primarily Rand's story.  However, it has a ton of main characters and secondary characters who get POV chapters.  I think it annoyed me when a main character completely disappeared from the story, but not when they simply ceased to be the POV.  So if this story were epic fantasy with a bunch of characters, I'd have absolutely no issue with what I'm planning.



> In book 1, you created a character that reader (hopefully) empathizes with. You introduce a second book, the hooked reader cheers, and now you're taking away the PoV the reader is accustomed to and is comfortable. Doesn't this produce an increased chance of the reader putting the book down in frustration?



For me, it would.  I'm not sure about Average Reader.



> I've read stories where the PoV has changed. It's usually because the primary PoV has died, or is no longer part of the story. But this is not the case in your story. I would just have both PoV present in both books.



The first book is Zack's POV.  Besides the Epilogue, it's not Hayli's story.  That's not going to change.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 24, 2015)

> Anyways, I wasn't entirely sure how exactly your two books flowed one into the other, so I tried to give my best interpretation of what I'd consider, anyways.



Book 1 ends with the Significant Situation for Zack resolved, but all relationship issues up in the air (love triangle).  Basically, Hayli likes, and is liked by, two guys, but she can't be with either one.  The Book 1 Epilogue changes Hayli's situation.  She can now be with either guy.  Which will she choose?

Book 2 enters a new Significant Situation that takes place immediately after the first book ends, and, though I have no idea what that situation is, I think Hayli's viewpoint will be more interesting.  And she's the one who has to make the decision between the two guys.  Therefore, I think that the best call, regardless of the chance of losing readers, is that most, if not all, of Book 2 be from her POV.


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## Svrtnsse (Jul 24, 2015)

I'm thinking this is one of those case-by-case things.
Do you think telling the story from Hayli's perspective would make it more interesting, or is Zack's story more exciting? Who's story do you feel more excited about?

One interesting side effect of switching PoV is that the reader will know Zack pretty well after the first book. Potentially, they may even know him better than Hayli does. They will also have Zack's view of the situations the two of them were involved in. What if Hayli viewed those situations in a different way. It could be the source of some interesting misunderstandings/conflicts between the two.

Another thing that may or may not be relevant is if Zack's story comes to an end in the first book. If it ends in a satisfying way it may be easier to continue on with the overarching story from another PoV. If Zack still hasn't unresolved issues (perhaps other than his relation to Hayli), then it may be more interested to follow him as he deals with them.

The argument that it might be interesting to show the relation from Hayli's point of view is a strong one for me, but then I'm really into writing relationships at the moment.


EDIT: this took longer to post than I expected. When I begun writing this, Kobun's post was the last one.


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## Svrtnsse (Jul 24, 2015)

Brian, I'll tie this back to the link you just posted to that survey in that other thread...

The last question in the survey applies to this thread:
*What aspects of a book keep readers coming back for more (by percentage)*
8% indicate character as the reason.
7% indicate storytelling.

78% indicated "all of the above"

If we assume that for people who picked "all of the above" factor in all the alternatives equally, then Character is only slightyl more important than Storytelling. To me, this says you shouldn't change PoV just for the sake of it, but that as long as you have a good enough reason to do it, you'll probably be fine.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 24, 2015)

Svrtnsse,

Good use of data there.  I'm probably overthinking things and will be fine continuing the series in another POV.

As I wrote that last sentence, I had a thought: Seems like I remember a bunch of books that were divided into segments.  It didn't really bother me when the second segment had a POV character who was different than the first segment.  If you kinda think of the whole series as one big book ...


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 24, 2015)

I vote for writing book 2 from Hayli.  I'd do it, if that's any consolation.  I think if she's the more compelling character and the only plot moving from book one into book two is the love story, I'd definitely see that as a reason to change to her POV and while the larger plot will continue with all three, I think her fresh perspective is a valid reason to choose her as the POV.  Also, it allows you to build on the love story (that we know from Zack's POV from earlier) and reveal it in a new and interesting way.  Otherwise, it might feel like beating a dead horse to remain in Zack's head for the follow-through of the love story decision-making.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 24, 2015)

Caged Maiden,

I'm out of thanks for the day, but I agree.

Thanks!

Brian


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 24, 2015)

yeah, I think it's totally the way I'd go, so I get what people are saying about changing PsOV between books being silly in certain circumstances, but in this case, I think it's actually the more compelling way to continue the story.  I'd WANT to know what's going on in her head, and since we're already familiar with Zack, when we see the story continue and Hayli's head being the driving force behind the decision-making, it would come off as fresh material and also give us the insider view of the process, whereas I'd imagine if we're in Zack's head again, it would feel rehashed and a touch belabored if the "decision" took too long to come to fruition.  This way, you can have her debating and torn, and as the trio go through another plot, the reader is more invested in how the decision affects Hayli.  Maybe in the end, she chooses the other guy (and not Zack) and the POV switch makes the reader less invested in Zack's desire, but more interested in Hayli's reasoning for when she ultimately chooses the other guy (Or Zack, which is fine, too).  I think this is a solid reasoning, and like I said, I'd do it this way, because so often I find myself setting up a plot, and maybe it looks like an easy decision, but to the character experiencing the conundrum, it isn't.  By switching to her head, you can fully explore that process and allow the reader to be more invested in Hayli herself, rather than just focusing on Zack's feelings, his thought process, and ultimately his joy or broken heart.  

Please don't kill any of the three.  That's cheating.

Just to share a little segment of my love triangle story (not the book I mentioned before, but book 8, which has a genuine love triangle.  Anyways, in book 8, a woman is running to safety and has a mercenary company to protect her and her young brother. Anyways, she's been unmarried until 28 and feels really alone and falls in love with her mercenary guard.  They have an adventure and openly express their feelings, but late in their journey, they return to her home town and the mercenary has to leave right away and one of the woman's family friends in elected to remain as her guard while her family go on this journey with the mercenary.  Anyways, the young man who is guarding her in her love's absence eventually has a sort of meltdown one day when he's wounded and needs her help to pull an arrow from his back.  He's a werewolf and transforms to heal, but it just makes him explode in anger, saying, "I know why you didn't marry me, but I'm more than a monster." and she doesn't know what to say...anyways, basically, he asked for her hand long ago, but she never even knew about it.  They talk and feelings are all raw, and after, he sort of keeps his distance because he's in love with her, but she is with someone else (and she's pregnant).  Later int he story, the woman gets tired of waiting for her husband to come home, so she leaves the baby behind and the werewolf (also a mage) accompanies her as she marches a company of mages to aid her husband in a war.  In the end of that story, the werewolf has an opportunity to leave the husband for dead (on the battlefield) but he doesn't.  Instead, he heals the guy and brings him home, because he loves the woman and knows how much she loves her husband.

Anyways, in the next book (I haven't written it fully), the baby is grown and a teenager, raised by the werewolf that is in love with her mother.  So the girl is the POV character and she notices late in the story that her "father" is in love with the queen of this neighboring country (her mother, but she doesn't know it).  When the king is killed late in the story, the werewolf has a chance to support the queen in her mourning, because he loved the king too, as a brother and dear friend, and he isn't in any way glad the man died.

SO that's my love triangle anyways, and how it plays out. I don't ever think killing one of the three in a love triangle is the best route, but when I did it, it happens many years after the couple is established and though the third member is still in love with the woman, the husband's death serves a greater purpose in the story (to make the daughter take action and avenge him) and it isn't a cheap excuse to make way for the new couple to form.  

So anyways, that's my thought on love triangles.  please don't kill one of the three to take away the decision.  And if you do, have the decision made before the death.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 24, 2015)

> So anyways, that's my thought on love triangles. please don't kill one of the three to take away the decision. And if you do, have the decision made before the death.



Sounds like sage advice. I'll try to keep it in mind.

I do feel sometimes, however, like I don't truly have a ton of control over such stuff.  Like this story: the original intent was simple. Zack likes Hayli. Hayli and Samuel date. Hayli and Samuel can't be together. Hayli ends up with Zack.

Then, I'm outlining a scene early in the book, and I make what, at the time, seems like a minor change to increase conflict/Zack's emotional response, but, basically, that change meant that Hayli couldn't be with Zack either.  That didn't work, so I'm like, "Well, let's make it to where Zack and Hayli can be together."  But making that change means that Hayli could be with Samuel.  And both are good guys.  I'm interested to see what happens.


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 25, 2015)

yeah I hear you.  I think in my head, I always knew the mage and the mercenary were going to be a couple, btu then the werewolf just happened in there, like I didn't plan it or anything.  I liked how it increased tension, though.  I gave her a real reason to not want to break his heart, but in the end, she was just more in love with the mercenary.  After fifteen years, though, the three stayed close and though the mage never considered betraying her husband (whom she loves deeply), the werewolf was always someone she felt tempted by, because she knew his feelings were genuine and she genuinely could have loved him as much as he loved her.  I think that's why I liked my version of a love triangle so much...it wasn't fueled by jealousy, or even a fight over the woman.  The two men are close and they both know the woman loves them both, but she made a decision to stay with the man she loved first and had a child with, and after, more children followed, and they had a good life, but the werewolf never really found love.  He married and had children, but he never felt complete.  I sort of based some of his discontent after someone I know, who sort of found love after his wife left, but um...it wasn't a happily ever after.  I think a lot of folks probably experience that, after you really truly love someone, you maybe can't find another person who fills the hole in your heart?  Anyways, the werewolf as an older man (raising the daughter of the couple) is a really great character to me.  SO many of his struggles stem from his wanting to do the best job he can for his friends, and the daughter...who's 14 at the opening, is giving him plenty of problems.  It starts when he returns home after a year away and finds out his wife kicked the girl out of the house and she's been sleeping in the barn...with her friend, a plowboy.  Yeah...dad's not really thrilled and he does a few unkind things in reaction.

I think the most convincing love triangles involve friendship, rather than lust-feelings, so it sounds like you have a good starting point for your story.  Three friends who have emotional ties to each other and it's hard to fight romantic feelings at various points.  

I wish you the best as you begin writing this and hope the ride is fun.  Even if you don't feel awesome about it in rough draft, I already offered to read it for you, and love stories are sort of a specialty of mine, so hopefully I can give you some solid feedback.  I'm looking forward to hearing more as you progress on the work.  Now, I'm sort of excited to work on my book 8, though I just began a rewrite on book 7 (which is the story of the parents of the werewolf in book 8).  Gotta keep on track, so I can get them all done.  I'm sorta prone to skipping around, working on my favorite parts, rather than tightening up and remedying whole stories.


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## Addison (Jul 25, 2015)

I think I've read a series where the author did what you're thinking. I don't remember the title, but I remember I liked it. (I've read hundreds of books so I'm surprised I remember half of them). My advice, if you go that path, is to make sure the POV in the second book is one the readers will want to follow after reading the first. So if the first one ends with a beloved character disappearing right before or after everything hits the fan, then they might want to read his/her story to find out why they defected, if they ever cared/still care etc.  Or the new POV could be a character thought dead, or was captured, it could give an extra thrill as the character will either be running for their life behind enemy lines, gathering intel, or just trying to get back to their side with their information without dying for good. 

Make sure the character in book 2 is one that both matters to the story and matters to the readers. Happy Writing.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 25, 2015)

Hmmm.

So the protagonist in the first book wants to become a superhero, in part, because it will make him more attractive to the opposite sex.  He gets powers, but the side effects literally make him repulsive.  He becomes Repulsor (anything shot at him bounced off at twice its momentum), and the book is _Repulsive_.

It seems to me that the protagonist of the second book should a) have no desire to be a hero at all and b) wish that she were less attractive to guys.  Therefore, her powers should deal with attraction in some way and make her even more desirable.  The book should be _Attractive_.

Does anyone else feel like you have to be something of a sadist to be a writer.  It's all like, "How can I make these imaginary people suffer?"


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