# Fun with Titles! (Noble and Otherwise)



## Mindfire (Dec 7, 2012)

To clarify, this thread is about titles of authority, not titles for books and chapters. 

As it so happened, I got bored with calling all my rulers "kings", especially since that's not quite accurate in a few cases. So I'm fiddling around with different titles. I'd like some input on which ones stick best.

I was calling Mavaria's ruler a king, but for one thing, the rulership isn't hereditary. Each new ruler is chosen by Akalesh, the god of the Mavarians. For another thing, Mavaria doesn't really have a nobility, aristocracy, or a true ruling class. Mavarian culture is very family-centric, and government is largely in the hands of the heads of families in a hierarchical household structure. At the top of the hierarchy are the Patriarchs and Matriarchs who make up Mavaria's Arch Council, and the king, whose job is to keep them all in line, see that laws are enforced, and perform the will of Akalesh. Hardly a typical monarchy. I'm considering changing the title to one of the following:


Master Judge
Arbiter
Chancellor
Magister

Similarly, the Mako's ruler isn't really a king either. I was calling the title _Mannetaw_ but I think that's an unncessary invented word. The Mako, similar to the Mavarians (the cultures have a common origin), govern themselves largely through a familial structure, but theirs is not nearly as formal as the Mavarians'. The title of Mannetaw is hereditary, and he does have near-absolute power (in theory), but he doesn't do what kings do. He doesn't govern _per ce_. Occasionally he'll issue laws or whatever, but his main responsibility is to act as "pack leader". The one that the people rally around in a time of crisis and who is responsible for leading in battle and ensuring his people's security. (Well, as secure as one can be in a forest full of giant killer sloths and toxic frogs.) I'm thinking of replacing the title "Mannetaw" with "Warden."


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## Wanara009 (Dec 7, 2012)

Just an aside, the Javanese Priyayi system is actually quite interesting. The titles changes as they grow older and/or change with their occupation. The title actually becomes a part of their legal full name. Not only that, the title have compound words like _Aria, Panji, Ngabehi etc_ which can be affected by their occupation or hereditary factor. When applied to women, there are also compound words that denotes their marital status. Their children usually start with a title one step below his father's and ascend as they grow older.

For example: the title of "Raden Mas" is given to any man with 2nd to 7th degree of relation to a king dynasty. Those with 1st degree of relation is given the title of "Bandara Raden Mas".

The son of a Raden Mas will start out as Raden. If he is chosen to work as governors, then his title changes to "Raden Tumenggung" or "Raden Adipati". If he became a high-ranking military officer, he will become "Raden Panji"

A lesser or Petty noble might have a inherited title like "Haryo", so they can be called Raden Haryo (lesser) or Mas Haryo (petty).

I used this system (with some modification so it only applies to nobles that get their nobility no through inheritance but through military, administrative, or judicial position) for a nation called Matramani in my project. That way, it's quite easy to keep their position consistent. The title for a king in my project is "Gusti Bandara Raden Sultan Hadiningrat/Buwono/Hamangku/etc [Insert Name Here]", shortened to just Bandara Raden Sultan. His function is to provide instructions for the Provinces to follow but he mostly act as supreme commander and the country representative diplomat


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## Anders Ã„mting (Dec 8, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> To clarify, this thread is about titles of authority, not titles for books and chapters.
> 
> As it so happened, I got bored with calling all my rulers "kings", especially since that's not quite accurate in a few cases. So I'm fiddling around with different titles. I'd like some input on which ones stick best.
> 
> I was calling Mavaria's ruler a king, but for one thing, the rulership isn't hereditary. Each new ruler is chosen by Akalesh, the god of the Mavarians. For another thing, Mavaria doesn't really have a nobility, aristocracy, or a true ruling class. Mavarian culture is very family-centric, and government is largely in the hands of the heads of families in a hierarchical household structure. At the top of the hierarchy are the Patriarchs and Matriarchs who make up Mavaria's Arch Council, and the king, whose job is to keep them all in line, see that laws are enforced, and perform the will of Akalesh.



The word "pope" comes to mind. 

Me, I'm a sucker for the classic monarchy titles - "king" is pretty much my favourite, followed by "prince."


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## Graylorne (Dec 8, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> To clarify, this thread is about titles of authority, not titles for books and chapters.
> 
> As it so happened, I got bored with calling all my rulers "kings", especially since that's not quite accurate in a few cases. So I'm fiddling around with different titles. I'd like some input on which ones stick best.
> 
> ...




When all the clan heads are called Patriarch/Matriarch, I would simply call him Senior (Patriarch). The titles on your list have all a very different meaning that (to me) doesn't fit your picture. Or, if you're really talking about an Arch Council, he/she would be an Arch Patriarch. 




> Similarly, the Mako's ruler isn't really a king either. I was calling the title _Mannetaw_ but I think that's an unncessary invented word. The Mako, similar to the Mavarians (the cultures have a common origin), govern themselves largely through a familial structure, but theirs is not nearly as formal as the Mavarians'. The title of Mannetaw is hereditary, and he does have near-absolute power (in theory), but he doesn't do what kings do. He doesn't govern _per ce_. Occasionally he'll issue laws or whatever, but his main responsibility is to act as "pack leader". The one that the people rally around in a time of crisis and who is responsible for leading in battle and ensuring his people's security. (Well, as secure as one can be in a forest full of giant killer sloths and toxic frogs.) I'm thinking of replacing the title "Mannetaw" with "Warden."



Keep to your original idea. That is excellent. Far better a made up word than one that gives a false impression.

BTW Not all Kings reign. Acting as a rallying point is a major duty to any King. A King in origin *is *a pack-leader.


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## Mindfire (Dec 8, 2012)

Graylorne said:


> When all the clan heads are called Patriarch/Matriarch, I would simply call him Senior (Patriarch). The titles on your list have all a very different meaning that (to me) doesn't fit your picture. Or, if you're really talking about an Arch Council, he/she would be an Arch Patriarch.


Why would they call him senior when he's decades younger than they are? (For some reason, Akalesh likes to pick kings in their 20s and 30s, much the the chagrin of the 80+ crowd that makes up the Council. )



Graylorne said:


> Keep to your original idea. That is excellent. Far better a made up word than one that gives a false impression. BTW Not all Kings reign. Acting as a rallying point is a major duty to any King. A King in origin *is *a pack-leader.


Part of the problem is that the word Mannetaw just looks funny to me. I don't know why. I'm just not wholly pleased with it.


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## Mindfire (Dec 8, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> The word "pope" comes to mind.
> 
> Me, I'm a sucker for the classic monarchy titles - "king" is pretty much my favourite, followed by "prince."



-_- shazbot.


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## PaulineMRoss (Dec 8, 2012)

I like the idea of made-up names. Words like king and queen and prince and duke and the like come with all sorts of baggage - patriarchy, heriditary rank, the feudal system, strict gender division, religion (eg pope) and so on. If a world is buying into that sort of tried and tested arrangement, fine, but it sounds like this world is a lot more original than that (and to my mind, a lot more interesting).

Bear in mind that titles tend to reflect the language of the times. Recent titles might be First Minister or Senior Councillor or whatever, very prosaic, but older titles have the majesty of archaic language (Privy Councillor, Yeomen of the Guard, Mistress of the Robes, etc) or might be derived from some ancient, long-forgotten language. I like to think that 'mannetaw' means something a bit poetic - 'holder of the white rod of power', or some such.

But if you do make up an array of titles, try to make them easy to remember. One book I read had the words for the entire hierarchy of power beginning with 'k'. Inevitably, they all blurred together after a while, and I'm sure I missed some subtleties of interaction by not knowing who was superior to whom.


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## Graylorne (Dec 8, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Why would they call him senior when he's decades younger than they are? (For some reason, Akalesh likes to pick kings in their 20s and 30s, much the the chagrin of the 80+ crowd that makes up the Council. )



Why do you call a senior engineer senior? Because he's better qualified than a junior engineer. Not because of his age. And I suppose the same emotions are at work.

(And if you really want to irritate those Patriarchs, call your king 'Eldest'. Gods have a sense of humor too.)



> Part of the problem is that the word Mannetaw just looks funny to me. I don't know why. I'm just not wholly pleased with it.



To me it sounds alright, but if you don't like it, make up something else, but no Warden. You're not writing a run-of-the-mill MMO are you?


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## shangrila (Dec 8, 2012)

Deacon, Custodian, Steward, Protector, Proctor, Keeper, Defender, Sentinel, etc

I got the feeling these rulers are more of a caretaker for this god's kingdom than an actual, so that's what I went with. Personally, I like Deacon and Proctor.


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## craenor (Dec 8, 2012)

Two thoughts. 

1. I like the title you created, Mannetaw. It has a title like mouth-feel to it, if you will. 
2. Make sure, if you use a self-created title, that you use it in clear context as to make certain it's a title. I find it frustrating to go a dozen or more pages thinking <CustomTitle> is someone's first name, only to discover that it was a title all along.


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## Graylorne (Dec 8, 2012)

craenor said:


> Two thoughts.
> 2. Make sure, if you use a self-created title, that you use it in clear context as to make certain it's a title. I find it frustrating to go a dozen or more pages thinking <CustomTitle> is someone's first name, only to discover that it was a title all along.



For example like this (just wrote it, found it apt): 'The Lady Ortoff? She's the Princess' _vestaria,_ her Lady-in-Waiting,' - vestaria being a Byzantine word.


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## Mindfire (Dec 8, 2012)

PaulineMRoss said:


> I like the idea of made-up names. Words like king and queen and prince and duke and the like come with all sorts of baggage - patriarchy, heriditary rank, the feudal system, strict gender division, religion (eg pope) and so on. If a world is buying into that sort of tried and tested arrangement, fine, but it sounds like this world is a lot more original than that (and to my mind, a lot more interesting).
> 
> Bear in mind that titles tend to reflect the language of the times. Recent titles might be First Minister or Senior Councillor or whatever, very prosaic, but older titles have the majesty of archaic language (Privy Councillor, Yeomen of the Guard, Mistress of the Robes, etc) or might be derived from some ancient, long-forgotten language. I like to think that 'mannetaw' means something a bit poetic - 'holder of the white rod of power', or some such.
> 
> But if you do make up an array of titles, try to make them easy to remember. One book I read had the words for the entire hierarchy of power beginning with 'k'. Inevitably, they all blurred together after a while, and I'm sure I missed some subtleties of interaction by not knowing who was superior to whom.



I think _Mannetaw_ originally meant either "Son of Wayru" (their first, legendary ruler) or "Friend of Wolves." Their culture has a bit of a wolf motif. And I agree, it's important to make them distinct. I think each of my different nations has a distinct title for their rulers.



Graylorne said:


> Why do you call a senior engineer senior? Because he's better qualified than a junior engineer. Not because of his age. And I suppose the same emotions are at work.
> 
> (And if you really want to irritate those Patriarchs, call your king 'Eldest'. Gods have a sense of humor too.)



I really like this idea. I think I might incorporate some variation of the title _Eldest_.



Graylorne said:


> To me it sounds alright, but if you don't like it, make up something else, but no Warden. You're not writing a run-of-the-mill MMO are you?


True, I'm not. As a replacement I'm leaning toward using the name _Wayru_ as a title to harken back to their first ruler, or perhaps _Nahu-El_. I also really like the name _Samoset_.


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## Kit (Dec 8, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> -_- shazbot.



You just totally dated yourself.   

It won't be safe to use "arbiter" for a couple of decades, because of Halo.


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## Mindfire (Dec 8, 2012)

Kit said:


> You just totally dated yourself.
> 
> It won't be safe to use "arbiter" for a couple of decades, because of Halo.



Actually I only learned about Tribes recently. Hopped on when Ascend came out. It was free on steam. But yeah, after you play a while a certain word starts sticking in your memory...

And to heck with Halo. I'll use arbiter if I bloody well feel like it! But that's a good point. I'll consider that.


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## Kit (Dec 9, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Actually I only learned about Tribes recently. Hopped on when Ascend came out. It was free on steam.



Okay...... you *still* totally dated yourself, just not in the way I thought.  :biggrin:

Now I feel about as old as dirt.


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