# Are vampires too cliche?



## PrincessaMiranda (Jul 12, 2012)

I had started a story before the Twilight series got blown up, and I feel like if I finished writing it the way it is that It would be put in a category or thought of as 'just another vampire book.' It is kind of a romance and also a thriller/horror. 

Should I keep it a vamp book or change it to some similar creature? (Not werewolves.)


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## Chilari (Jul 12, 2012)

Okay two key things to say here:

First, a type of fantasy creature or being isn't cliche. Vampires, elves, dragons, unicorns, whatever, are not cliche by themselves. There are cliche ways of presenting them, but asking if using vampires in your story is redundant. Asking if using them in a particular way is cliche is a different story.

Second, who cares? As has been established in a different thread, whether something is cliche or not is not a useful or productive way of thinking about what you're writing. Is it a story you want to write? Then write it. Will your enjoyment of it be any less if it is cliche?

And as far as thinking readers will believe you're a bandwagon jumper, don't stress about it. For everything else it is, the Twilight series is popular, so you know there's a market for that kind of book. Whether it sells depends on how good it is. Focus on making sure it is good.

I'll admit to having a vampire story on the backburner myself. It's certainly not a romance, more a thriller. It involves stalking, kidnapping, blackmail, obsessive behaviour (from both the protagonist and the vampire) and if I wrote and published it those who just knew it had a vampire in it would probably think it was a vampire romance because that's the trend. It's not gonna stop me from writing it. When I get my act together.

Good luck.


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## Ireth (Jul 12, 2012)

I'm also working on a vampire story, which I started in 2006/2007, well before I ever heard of Twilight or realized vampires were "in". That hasn't stopped me from completing a first draft and going on to another one with the intent of being published someday; my vampires are (hopefully) pretty unusual and unique. Even if they weren't, I'd write it anyway, simply because I love vampires.


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## PrincessaMiranda (Jul 12, 2012)

Thank you for your help. It is different from the twilight in that the guy had just turned and she is thrown into a darker underworld. I don't like being categorized so I was in turmoil over it. 

Chilari your story sounds pretty good, if you ever do get that one published id like to read it.


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## Ireth (Jul 12, 2012)

PrincessaMiranda said:


> Thank you for your help. It is different from the twilight in that the guy had just turned and she is thrown into a darker underworld. I don't like being categorized so I was in turmoil over it.



Your novel sounds a fair bit like mine, going by that sentence alone.


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## Taro (Jul 12, 2012)

i think that chil said it good  its how you write it that matters, i know one of my main novels has a werewolf in it but its more like a werewolf from underworld.


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## PrincessaMiranda (Jul 12, 2012)

Ireth- Mine also shows an underground in the music industry. I've4 always wanted to be in a rock band so I incorperated it into my story. Its directed towards young adults.


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## Ireth (Jul 12, 2012)

Sounds like fun.  My "underworld" is a literal underground city built and populated by vampires, and ruled by the eldest one.


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## PrincessaMiranda (Jul 12, 2012)

That sounds pretty sweet. Im a fan of Underground. lol.


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## Loupgarou (Jul 13, 2012)

I agree that it's about the quality of presentation more than anything. The last book i read, The Last Werewolf, has vampires that really aren't all that different from classic depictions but i never felt like it was retreading or anything. Their place in the story is logical and they are portrayed well, with a sort of 'untouchable' air. Of course a Werewolf is the main character, and once again although the basic formula isn't mucked about with, the character himself was very interesting and that mattered more than any gimmick he could have had. 

I really do think the same applies to all fantasy creatures. There are so many different kinds of vamps, orcs, faeries, what have you that focusing on being 'unique' probably isn't the best way to go about things. Just focus on interesting logical characters, regardless their race.


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## Flemming Hansen (Jul 13, 2012)

I must admit that 'Interview With The Vampire' by _Anne Rice _is one of the best and most beautiful written books that I've ever read. However, since the Vampire thing is blown into teen pop culture, I fear the rest of the genre might be overshadowed by i.e. the Twilight series. I would guess that itÂ´s risky to put it out there at the moment, but who knows?  I guess it's all up to you, and how confident you are. If your book is good enough, you might  as well catch the wave and go for a ride.


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## Lawfire (Jul 13, 2012)

I think a manuscript is going to have to be very good to get past a lot of editors and agents with vampires as the lead(s). However, if you are writing YA fantasy, it might be a different story.

That said, I would write what you like, and publishing will come when the time is right.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 13, 2012)

Might be time for the literary emergence of a real bad ass of a vamp. A character that doesn't rebel against their nature and long for humanity (I find that weak to be honest). 

Wash away some of these wussy, sparkly, teenage heartthrob versions.


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## SeverinR (Jul 13, 2012)

I have said this on another thread about elves, but basically lets change your OP question:

Are humans cliche? Have they been written to death? 90% of books involve one or more of these critters.

Are humans cliche? as a whole...no.
Are certain personalities cliche? yes.

People still write about humans, they write about the good, the bad, the troubled, the insane... Before asking is a type of animal or humanoid is cliche, ask yourself, has every human story been written?  If not, then there is still stories out there that can be written about_____*(*place stereo-typical race or being here).

Modern authors can publish nusery rhymes known for many generations, just by making them their version.  Make the ______* your version. Give them your oddities, your abilities, your weaknesses.
recent movies: Red riding hood, Brave, Swan princess, Beauty and the beast, 

Cliche is an authors problem, not a racial or beastial problem.


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## PrincessaMiranda (Jul 13, 2012)

Those are all very good points, I enjoy vampires that love being vampires. The story I have only relates to Twilight in that Boy vamp likes human girl, but didnt want to be changed. Though it is his fault he was changed. I wanted it to be YA but some scenes I have are a bit vulgar. I like vulgar. haha.


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## Steerpike (Jul 13, 2012)

PrincessMiranda, you have a lot more leeway in teen and YA than you might expect for vulgarity, language etc. I read one recently that not only had language, but had overt sex (blowjobs, for example, and other acts). A few years ago I might have been more surprised, but as it stands now I can't think of many vulgarities than haven't already been explored in teen/YA fiction. So I wouldn't worry too much about it. The degree of explicit description you use would be the only factor that would cause trouble, imo. If you're writing erotica, you won't be able to get on the teen/YA shelves. At least, I think not


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## Jabrosky (Jul 13, 2012)

I've never liked vampires. The very thought of them made me sick to my stomach even long before their current popularity phase. That said, if you're genuinely fond of vampires, I say write what you want. I'm also sick of people worry too much about cliches or tropes.


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## psychotick (Jul 13, 2012)

Hi,

For me its not vampires that are cliche. Its pretty boy vampires that really just want to be loved and understood by teenage girls that are hugely overdone. They're supposed to be monsters.

Cheers, Greg.


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## PrincessaMiranda (Jul 13, 2012)

Steerpike- Some of my stories get pretty into it. haha In fact I just submitted a piece into my portfolio which wasnt quite clean. But I suppose as long as I dont used tired versions of stories I will be ok.


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## kjboe (Jul 14, 2012)

Know what i cant stand in books and movies, that fact that the person writing it is afraid of calling it what it is, for example, Walking dead call their zombies walkers, thats fine, sounds cool and all, but i mean come on! If a vampire is a vampire, lets call it a vampire, not a fanger, or a bloodletter of boobytron, or a human transfusion centre. I understand that it works sometimes when the creator has made a few changes to the basics of the vampire but apart from that, be true!

Oh and twilight, vampires shouldnt sparkle in the sunlight, they burn! Bram Stoker all the way im afraid.

good luck with the book, be true to yourself, i doubt that it will matter that you have a vampire novel when its became a craze. Who cares, if its good its gonna take wings and fly (pun).

good luck


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## Devor (Jul 14, 2012)

My definition of cliche is a trope whose presence immediately calls to mind other examples in which it was poorly used.  I think Vampires do that.  It doesn't help right now that they're popular, so that there's a flood of vampire stuff.  But I kind of think that was true even before Twilight.

That doesn't need to mean very much about whether you should it use it or not.  It just means that you have a higher threshold for getting your readers to suspend disbelief - you need them to suspend the baggage of bad vampire writing as well.


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## Zophos (Jul 14, 2012)

I can't help but wonder if whomever the schmuck was who wrote the Twilight series didn't wonder similar things about Anne Rice.

Whatever you do make them badass again. These weak, conflicted, teenie bopper vampires from Twilight and Trueblood piss me off. I guess we had it coming when Gary Oldman cried over Winona Rider in the '92 Coppola film. I mean, honestly, Winona Rider?!?


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## Steerpike (Jul 14, 2012)

Twilight targeted a certain audience, and she did a good job of it. It wasn't the first vampire/paranormal romance to hit the scene, but it opened the floodgates. The continued popularity of that sort of thing tells me there is still a market, though it seems to be shifting from primarily vampire to other supernatural characters.

There are still good books out where vampires are outright brutal and vicious. Look at Tim Lebbon's novelization of the 30 Days of Night movie (which is good; the movie not so much). Or Vampyrrhic (Simon Clark). There are others as well, where vampires are not glamorized (The Orange Eats Creeps, by Grace Krilanovich).


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## Ireth (Jul 14, 2012)

kjboe said:


> Know what i cant stand in books and movies, that fact that the person writing it is afraid of calling it what it is, for example, Walking dead call their zombies walkers, thats fine, sounds cool and all, but i mean come on! If a vampire is a vampire, lets call it a vampire, not a fanger, or a bloodletter of boobytron, or a human transfusion centre. I understand that it works sometimes when the creator has made a few changes to the basics of the vampire but apart from that, be true!



What if your story is set in a time or place where the word "vampire" doesn't exist? My vampire novel is set in our world in the mid-1300's, and the word "vampire" wasn't coined until about the 1700's. I use a translation of the term "blood-drinker" to describe my vampires. Would something like that bother you?


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## PrincessaMiranda (Jul 14, 2012)

All very poignant points. I try to avoid the deep love bull that is in everything, but I know it is popular. I have one that is based on the phrase, 'Even Evil can Love'. The bad guy is a bad guy and doesn't change, the heroine is, of course, reluctant. But she never falls in love with him. She seduces him, pretending to be just as in love, only to break his heart as revenge for turning her. 

Trying to keep it original.


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## ALB2012 (Jul 14, 2012)

I wouldn't say so. If you do exactly the same idea as "Twilight" (which I haven't read and will not be doing so) then maybe, if you do something unique then of course not. Vampire stories have been around for ages in one form or another. Most fantasy creatures have been done somewhere in some form. Go for it, the fuss about Twilight will die down, as will 50 SoG fuss and that is not new either.

I would say go for it, write the story you want and damn those who think it is a bandwagon


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## Reaver (Jul 14, 2012)

Zophos said:


> I guess we had it coming when Gary Oldman cried over Winona Rider in the '92 Coppola film. I mean, honestly, Winona Rider?!?



THANK YOU!! She has the worst fake-British accent I ever heard. It's worse than Liam Neeson's fake American accent. (See "Taken" for further detail.)


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## Zophos (Jul 14, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Twilight targeted a certain audience...
> ...



Correct, I believe, on targetting an audience. I can't help but wonder if that's what writing has become nowadays. Are we down to niche marketing, snake oil sales and spicemongering?



PrincessaMiranda said:


> ...Trying to keep it original.



If you want a good twist, go back to the vampire incapable of love and therefore incapable of life. There's a protagonist ripe for the foil.



Reaver said:


> THANK YOU!! She has the worst fake-British accent I ever heard. It's worse than Liam Neeson's fake American accent. (See "Taken" for further detail.)



And don't even get me started on Keanu...


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## psychotick (Jul 14, 2012)

Hi,

Don't slang off Winnie - she's hot! (Just make sure to lock up your valuables!)

Cheers, Greg.


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## Steerpike (Jul 14, 2012)

Zophos said:


> Correct, I believe, on targetting an audience. I can't help but wonder if that's what writing has become nowadays. Are we down to niche marketing, snake oil sales and spicemongering?



Perhaps (on the niche marketing). With the explosion of fiction we are already seeing and are going to continue to see with electronic publishing, targeting a niche may be your best best in terms of establishing a following.


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## DameiThiessen (Jul 15, 2012)

Vampires are not cliche. What is cliche is the vampire _romance_, where they love a human but can't be together because of what they are. There has to be a better way to weave a story together that doesn't rely on "forbidden love".

I also hate it when the author goes "I have vampires in my story - but they don't include any traditional weaknesses of vampire folklore" - basically making them beautiful people that drink blood and can't be killed in any remarkable way.


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## Ireth (Jul 15, 2012)

DameiThiessen said:


> Vampires are not cliche. What is cliche is the vampire _romance_, where they love a human but can't be together because of what they are. There has to be a better way to weave a story together that doesn't rely on "forbidden love".



How about two gay vampire men who love each other, and whose relationship is hindered by a huge age gap between them that affects the younger's view of the elder?



DameiThiessen said:


> I also hate it when the author goes "I have vampires in my story - but they don't include any traditional weaknesses of vampire folklore" - basically making them beautiful people that drink blood and can't be killed in any remarkable way.



Well, my vampires' weaknesses aren't traditional, but they're still there. They're harmed by iron and repelled by rowan wood, and full direct sunlight reveals their demonic/bestial nature. Being turned doesn't make them beautiful; they look just the same as when they died, minus the sunlight thing. And their digestive/waste removal process is seriously icky.


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## DameiThiessen (Jul 15, 2012)

Ireth said:


> How about two gay vampire men who love each other, and whose relationship is hindered by a huge age gap between them that affects the younger's view of the elder?



I was thinking of the angsty, I-want-to-be-with-you-but-I'll-eat-you, or I-want-to-be-with-you-but-I'll-outlive-you kind of romance.



Ireth said:


> Well, my vampires' weaknesses aren't traditional, but they're still there. They're harmed by iron and repelled by rowan wood, and full direct sunlight reveals their demonic/bestial nature. Being turned doesn't make them beautiful; they look just the same as when they died, minus the sunlight thing. And their digestive/waste removal process is seriously icky.



As long as there's something. Every monster story needs to include the monster's weaknesses.


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## PrincessaMiranda (Jul 15, 2012)

I've always wondered how their waste worked. 

I guessed 'Everybody poops' didn't apply to them.


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## Devor (Jul 15, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Perhaps (on the niche marketing). With the explosion of fiction we are already seeing and are going to continue to see with electronic publishing, targeting a niche may be your best best in terms of establishing a following.



I've said this before, I want to emphasize it as much as I can.

I think your best bet for marketing is to focus on a niche but to also include _something_ for the mass market.  It takes a long time to saturate a niche, and yet 5% of the mass market is still more than 50% of a niche - so why not target both?

The problem with niche marketing is that very few people in your market will _identify_ as part of a niche.  Most readers don't actually know what they like before they read it.  So reaching them is a lot harder and takes a lot longer than it might sound.

((edit))

Other problems with niche marketing are that there's a sliding scale of how deeply people fall into that niche, and there's a lot of subtitles which make it difficult to define a niche.  To keep it on topic, a cursory glance would put Buffy, Twilight and True Blood in the same niche - vampire romance - and yet in my experience from talking to people, they aren't really much in the same niche at all.  Insomuch as their niches do overlap, Twilight has more mass market elements, Buffy fewer, True Blood hardly any.  And it shows in the size of their audience.

So if you're going to think about your target audience, it's a much deeper discussion, I think, than most authors are prepared for.


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## kjboe (Jul 15, 2012)

Thats cool actually, i can dig that. Its just when an old ancient creature is given a ridiculous name like what i said before, its cringeworthy. I mean i see exactly where and what you mean by using a term of blood-drinker, that'd be awesome because its set in an older time.

I like!


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## BeigePalladin (Jul 15, 2012)

are vampires "clichÃ©"? are elves cliche, or dwarves? how abouts knights and sorcery? sci-fi and the far future? the space opera or the epic quest? love throughout the ages? good and evil? They're a classical fantasy creature, as much as what I mentioned before, and as such they're only cliche when fantasy itself is cliche

then comes the fact that cliche _does not equal bad_, as to become a cliche, something must have been effective and intresting enough for people to remeber and duplicate it. If its well written, then what your reading can be made entierly of cliche without it having any impact upon the work itself.

that and everything has been done enough times to make everything cliche, so whats one more drop in the bucket 

Of course thats not to say don't try to put your own spin on something, as thats part of your own work, ust don't be afraid to use something becayuse its not origional.


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## Ireth (Jul 15, 2012)

PrincessaMiranda said:


> I've always wondered how their waste worked.
> 
> I guessed 'Everybody poops' didn't apply to them.



There's actually a great big post with lots of info on my vampires here: http://mythicscribes.com/forums/brainstorming-planning/2839-ireths-take-vampires.html


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## Steerpike (Jul 15, 2012)

Even vampire romances are salable. They seem to be doing quite well. A friend of mine got a three book deal from a publisher for vampire romances not that long ago.


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## Shockley (Jul 15, 2012)

If you take any trait, characteristic, etc. you can be 100% certain that some other writer, at some place or time, has handled the same topic. Everything, in a sense, is old territory that we're just looking at in new ways with new styles of writing and new human experiences.

 That said, if you're looking at your story and worried that it might be cliched, there's a reason you are having that worry. Find what it is, and adjust/remove it.


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## PrincessaMiranda (Jul 15, 2012)

Well, the biggest reason is because when I lived with my roommate we had a kind of 'Storytime' and she was into the pop vampire books. After a while they all seemed to run together and sound the same. Same 'teen vamp' stuff, same love issues, same problems that don't really matter. That is what I mean by cliche, I don't want my story to bleed together (No pun intended) with all the rest of those out there, because it lowers the books value in my eyes. I'm also a rebel to the core so fads are always repulsive to me. This vampire thing with little girls who long for love is ridiculous, even though I know where they're coming from. 

As they say, I was into vamps before it was cool.


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## Ireth (Jul 15, 2012)

PrincessaMiranda said:


> This vampire thing with little girls who long for love is ridiculous, even though I know where they're coming from.



Agreed. Admittedly there is a vampire/human romance in the backstory of my novel's villain, but it's not of the cheesy teen romance type: the human woman in question is an adult widower with a young son, who takes a long time to actually warm up to the vampire even after he ends up saving her life multiple times. And she never finds out he's a vampire until he accidentally turns her into one on their wedding night just after they consummate their marriage. She divorces him immediately upon waking up, and takes her son with her. The age gap between them isn't nearly as significant as in many vampire/human love stories; he's physically twice her age and actually a few years older than that, but this is the Middle Ages, and older men married younger women all the time. (For the record, the woman is 23 when she's married to the vampire, NOT a teenager.) She is by no means naive or weak, either.


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## PrincessaMiranda (Jul 16, 2012)

It makes the women look weak and stupid if she has to be 'saved' all the time. Though, additively, deep down most women crave being 'protected'. Its sort of an instinct, but it doesn't justify the fact that most of these stories have a heroine who couldn't open a jar without help, let alone fight off a horde of vampires. The term heroine shouldn't even be used to explain them, because 'hero' implies strong and brave. Throw in a Scarlett O'Hara or Ayla (Clan of the cave bear) and you've got a strong, interesting female lead who can take care of herself while also 'taming' her potential lover. Now that is interesting.


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## Ireth (Jul 16, 2012)

PrincessaMiranda said:


> It makes the women look weak and stupid if she has to be 'saved' all the time.



I wouldn't call a woman weak or stupid for not being able to escape a burning building or a group of bandits who outnumber her five to one. She does hold her own against the bandits; the vampires who rescued her just evened the odds.


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## PrincessaMiranda (Jul 16, 2012)

Well, a woman who does not even try, THAT is the problem. Instead she curls into a ball of panic and waits to be saved. A woman who tries is, indeed, a heroine. Because she TRIES.


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## Ireth (Jul 16, 2012)

PrincessaMiranda said:


> Well, a woman who does not even try, THAT is the problem. Instead she curls into a ball of panic and waits to be saved. A woman who tries is, indeed, a heroine. Because she TRIES.



My thoughts exactly.


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## PrincessaMiranda (Jul 16, 2012)

In fact a strong women who is protected is a unique thing, it causes tension and play that works with your story sometimes. Though I see MANY romance novels with that theme. Again, there is a reason women respond to that. If it works, why ruin it?


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## Ireth (Jul 16, 2012)

Indeed. ^_^ I think we've derailed the thread just a little bit though... So how about them vampires?

What are your thoughts on newly-turned vampires who struggle with trying to retain what's left of their humanity (if any) and resisting the urge to drink human blood? The protagonist of my novel is one of those, and I worry that he'll be branded as a wuss because he refuses to feed from humans (nevermind that he goes through that in-universe as well, when he meets a bunch of vampires who have absolutely no moral objection to it).


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## PrincessaMiranda (Jul 16, 2012)

I had that exact thought.  

Any human who has good morals is obviously going to object to something so taboo. In fact it makes him stronger than if he gave into painful urges immediately. That said, people today are jaded and believe that they can withstand any type of ordeal, but when it comes down to real work... well, lets just say they cant handle it. In my new one the female lead is turned without her consent, but comes to relish bloodletting. I write dark fantasy most times. Dark Romanticism. Is that a thing? Well, it is now.


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## Ireth (Jul 16, 2012)

PrincessaMiranda said:


> Any human who has good morals is obviously going to object to something so taboo. In fact it makes him stronger than if he gave into painful urges immediately. That said, people today are jaded and believe that they can withstand any type of ordeal, but when it comes down to real work... well, lets just say they cant handle it.



Well, according to what seems to be a lot of people, angsty vamps who don't feed from humans are totally cliche and boring. My vampire protagonist doesn't feed from humans, but he doesn't angst about the struggle either. He gets by perfectly well on animal blood. When he meets the vampires who take feeding from humans and turn it into a form of entertainment (even going so far as to have "drinking games"), he's horrified. He lies about his own diet to try to sound nasty like them, but doesn't join in their idea of fun.


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## PrincessaMiranda (Jul 16, 2012)

That is better than the ones who whine about their situation. "OOH! Your blood smells so good, but I must Resist!" 

A man should be a man! Even if he is a vampire.


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## Taro (Jul 16, 2012)

PrincessaMiranda said:


> That is better than the ones who whine about their situation. "OOH! Your blood smells so good, but I must Resist!"
> 
> A man should be a man! Even if he is a vampire.



Bloody shiney whingy girly vamps  be real vampman  lol


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## PrincessaMiranda (Jul 16, 2012)

LMAo, that's what I'm saying!


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## BeigePalladin (Jul 16, 2012)

agreed there. the angsty vamp is such a painful technique because its een done so badly so many times most people don't see it can be done effectivly. And then there's the idea that a vamp, to be a sympathetic character, must be angsty and hate being a vampire, which is a stupid idea; its like saying to make a sympathetic asian or muslim character in a piece of wesetern work they need to hate that part of themselves...

and its even worse with 'teen' vamps - especially once who have been a vampire far, far longer than being a human - it strains any form of belief or accocciation that this character could have hated themelves for so long without killing themselves/setting out for a cure, or that they wouldn't have done like any real living creature and at least triedf to adapt...

 but then those would both get rid of your plot-point-avatar and require the writer to think of something to add the obligatory wangst about...


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## Loupgarou (Jul 25, 2012)

It's also important to remember that even if your vampires are pretty normal your story doesn't have to be. Let The Right One In (the swedish version and book, haven't seen the american remake so i can't judge it) is not in any way the expected vampire story. But the vampire in the story drinks blood, would be killed by sunlight, can't be let in a room without being invited, and even emotionally manipulates (maybe actually loves, but it's ambiguous). 

On what Paladin said, i know i already mentioned the Last Werewolf, but a large amount of that book is about the love hate relationship the main character has with himself. He is a character who is both suicidal and kills to survive, and yet it doesn't feel illogical in the story. It really can be done well, it just often isn't. I'm wary about your racial analogy because Vampires are monsters that have to murder to live, not just another race or species. It would be different if we were speaking orcs or something similar.


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## Steerpike (Jul 25, 2012)

Loupgarou said:


> It's also important to remember that even if your vampires are pretty normal your story doesn't have to be. Let The Right One In (the swedish version and book, haven't seen the american remake so i can't judge it) is not in any way the expected vampire story. But the vampire in the story drinks blood, would be killed by sunlight, can't be let in a room without being invited, and even emotionally manipulates (maybe actually loves, but it's ambiguous).



The American version is good. It was an unnecessary remake, and follows the Swedish version fairly closely, though some parts are left out. The Swedish film is still better, but the American remake probably won't disappoint you.


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## PrincessaMiranda (Jul 25, 2012)

B oth versions were really good, so unique and sad.. That is the kind of style and atmosphere id like to have for my own stories.


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## Zero Angel (Jul 25, 2012)

I love vampire stories and am always in the mood for another. I do agree they have been done to death, but I thought there were already a lot of "generic" vampires after Anne Rice's novels and the Bram Stoker's Dracula (1992) film. I especially like seeing new ways to explore vampires and how or why they develop the "rules" and weaknesses that they have.

It's something I explore in my own novels, but my vampires are a *lot* more monstrous than others I have seen.


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