# Dialogue Question: Am I Doing it Right?



## Xaysai (Dec 25, 2012)

I've never written dialogue before, so I read a great blog here about it, but I'm still confused.

I've heard that dialogue tags are frowned upon, so I've attempted to not use them. However, I'm still not confident that I am writing it properly.

Please feel free to give me feedback on my dialogue, writing, pace or anything else from this scene. Thanks as always to the Mythic Scribes : )

This is part of my second chapter:

Alright, never mind. It’s just a dream. There’s no way he read my mind. Or knew my name. He stood from his work station and moved towards me. “And no, you are not dreaming. How are you feeling?”

I wiggled my arms and legs to find that I was strapped to the table by my wrists and ankles. How very terrific. “I’m feeling like I’m having a very bad day,” I lifted my head and looked down at the straps cutting into my wrists to illustrate my point, “and that it’s about to get worse.”

He grabbed the end of the leather strap on my left arm, then my right, and pulled them even tighter. The act was clearly less about making sure they were tight, and more about letting me know he was in charge. “Well, I’ve got good news for you. How your day ends will be completely up to you.”

In attempt to defy his leather strap tightening power trip I tried to use a little of my power to heal the chaffed and bleeding skin around my wrists, but no power came. I let my head fall back against the table, resigned. “I thought you might say something like that.”

“You were in very bad shape when I found you." He peeled up some of the adhesive holding the large bandage onto my stomach and peered underneath it. "Curiously, your body maintains a limited ability to heal itself while you are unconscious. Without it, I might not have been able to get your stomach pieced back together”.

Feeling satisfied with his work, he replaced the bandage and walked across the room to retrieve a large stack of parchment paper from his workstation. Walking back towards me, he shook the papers as he spoke. “You’ve spent the better part of the last half century undoing my work.”

My stomach sank. Here I thought I'd been working so discretely, yet pasty doctor guy possesses what seems to be an entire dossier on me. “Sounds like time to retire.”

“Oh, don’t you worry. I still have a great deal many more years left in me. Actually, I feel as though my best work is to come.” He sat on the edge of the table, a little too close.

I stared at the ceiling, trying not to show my discomfort. “That sounds like a challenge.”

“I need your help, Ark." It sounded like a request, but I knew it really wasn't.

My eyes still focused straight ahead, I tried to feel again for my power. “The last time I chose to help someone I got shot by an arrow which came alive and tried to eat me, repeatedly stabbed in the stomach by my dead apprentice and then woke up here in the presence of your sunshiny disposition. Forgive me if I decline.” I turned my head to find him staring at me. The man was pale. Very pale. “You don’t get out much do you?”

He broke our eye contact and repositioned his glasses on his nose. “My work keeps me busy."

“What exactly would you say your work is?” I knew the answer to the question, but I wanted to hear it from him.

With a hint of pride he explained, “I find ways to finally put an end to this war.” At this, he stood up a bit more straight.

“Oh, I see. You've dedicated your life to finding new and exciting ways to commit mass murder? The world might benefit from you ghouling around less in this basement, and more from you getting some sunshine, pasty." My attempt to get under his skin clearly didn't take.

His eyes met mine. “And maybe you should stop moving your mouth long enough to hear my offer. If you find yourself unable, I can stop it for you.” Ok, maybe it did.

“I’d say that the chances of me helping you are somewhere around," I paused and feigned deep thought, as though I were actually performing the calculation in my head, then with a measure of finality said, "zero." I followed this up with my most melodramatic, "kill me if you must."

“There are things worse than death, Ark,” he stated with a flat tone as he placed his hand on my forehead. At this, my eyes snapped shut and my memories came. Horrible memories.


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## Leif Notae (Dec 25, 2012)

Well, I'm not sure what you are trying to do here, but it looks as though you have followed their advice on the blog post for the dialogue punctuation (Good post, by the way. I'll have to bookmark it).

The other issues can be flow, wooden appearance and tone, and believability. While you have the punctuation down (always critical), the flow seems stilted and forced.


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## Xaysai (Dec 25, 2012)

Thanks, Leif. I will work to correct those issues.


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## Chilari (Dec 25, 2012)

You don't have to avoid dialogue tags every single time. It's fine to have them in here of there, especially to make it clear who is speaking in a group, but also in a one-on-one conversation like what you have here.


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## Leif Notae (Dec 25, 2012)

Chilari said:


> You don't have to avoid dialogue tags every single time. It's fine to have them in here of there, especially to make it clear who is speaking in a group, but also in a one-on-one conversation like what you have here.



Ehhhh, it is best to purge as many as you can. Use action within beats to denote who is speaking instead of wasting valuable space with "XXX Said". And no extra verbage like whimpered, whispered, willed, weeped, or whatever other inane word you can insert here.


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## Ireth (Dec 25, 2012)

Leif Notae said:


> Ehhhh, it is best to purge as many as you can. Use action within beats to denote who is speaking instead of wasting valuable space with "XXX Said". And no extra verbage like whimpered, whispered, willed, weeped, or whatever other inane word you can insert here.



I disagree, sometimes those "inane" words can be necessary to convey a certain tone or quality of voice.


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## Sheilawisz (Dec 25, 2012)

I always try to give a natural style to my dialogues, to create the kind of conversations that you can listen between people in everyday life...

The trick is to make the dialogue simple: Avoid writing too long conversations, or being overly complex.

My characters always speak straight to the point without unnecessary words, my dialogue paragraphs are short and I keep the conversations simple, I hope that works for you too =)


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## Xaysai (Dec 25, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> I always try to give a natural style to my dialogues, to create the kind of conversations that you can listen between people in everyday life...
> 
> The trick is to make the dialogue simple: Avoid writing too long conversations, or being overly complex.
> 
> My characters always speak straight to the point without unnecessary words, my dialogue paragraphs are short and I keep the conversations simple, I hope that works for you too =)



Is this a polite way of saying my dialogue isn't simple enough?

I can change it up, this is a first draft.

I'm just trying to learn!


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## Sheilawisz (Dec 25, 2012)

I think that your dialogue is quite pleasant, it does sound natural and well-flowing to me. Maybe you should post more of your material at the Showcase, that's a better forum to get feedback =)


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## wordwalker (Dec 25, 2012)

Leif Notae said:


> Ehhhh, it is best to purge as many as you can. Use action within beats to denote who is speaking instead of wasting valuable space with "XXX Said". And no extra verbage like whimpered, whispered, willed, weeped, or whatever other inane word you can insert here.





Ireth said:


> I disagree, sometimes those "inane" words can be necessary to convey a certain tone or quality of voice.



This is always a debate we can have. I'd say it's about priorities of tone, plus variety: a "whimpered" here or there can punctuate things when it's just important enough-- that is, too useful to leave out, but not worth the bulk (and effort) to spell out with a separate "He whimpered like a kicked dog." In fact, sometimes the context makes it too obvious for a basic description (_"You bloody bastard!!" he shouted._ --redundant), or other times the detail is different from what readers would otherwise expect (_"Bastard!" he whispered._ --necessary).

The other is variety. You work very hard to avoid using "said," and that does raise the quality, if maybe taking more effort than it really needs. Still, you don't want readers to start half-thinking "A little odd, shouldn't there be a Said in there?" Half the problem with novice tagging patterns is overusing any one type-- which is almost the only thing that can make Saids actually bad.


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## Penpilot (Dec 25, 2012)

Beware taking any writing "rule" to the extreme. Personally, I don't use many dialogue tags. I have scenes were I don't use any, but there are scenes where I can't get by with out them. Be careful, using a character's actions in place of 'said' can make the characters seem fidgety. A bit of an extreme example.  

Mike scratched his nose. "Hey Frank, have you seen Marge?"

Frank tapped his chin. "Saw her in the library ten minutes ago, but it looked like she was about to leave."

"Then I better hurry." Mike jerked his head in the direction of the library.

"I'll come with." Frank patted Mike on the shoulder.

Mike waved for Frank to hurry. "Got to get there before she leaves, Franky."

Frank crossed his arms, "Don't tell me to hurry. I walk to the beat of my own drum."

"Well, if you have a drum, you're going to need drumsticks." Mike stuck up the middle finger on each hand.


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## Rullenzar (Dec 25, 2012)

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention is pacing. I like to call it pacing and I know a lot of us fall into this trap in our rough drafts. Always giving actions after each thing said by a character. Like penpilot mentioned this would make a character seem fidgety sure but also we don't need to know every single facial feature and action your character is doing. 
Your dialogue should convey their emotions and in turn the reader can imagine what your character's actions and facial features are from their own experience. There will be times where the conversation moves back and forth without any sort of action being taken. Just like real life. If the action helps to move the story along then go for it but if your just describing it for the sake of describing it then you need to rethink it. In most cases the information your characters are talking about is far more important then their eye twitches/leg movement/hair waving in the air/arms flailing/pointing sternly/cute dimples/cheeky cheeks/hairy eyelids collecting sweat....you get the point


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## Sheilawisz (Dec 25, 2012)

About dialogue tags, I think that they should not be frowned upon. Well-used tags actually make a story more entertaining and easier to read, but after all, it's something that depends on the writing style of each of us.

I don't believe in Writing rules that should be followed by everyone, so I am with Penpilot in this: Just don't take it to the extreme and you should be fine. Avoiding dialogue tags completely would be strange, at least in my opinion, and it would perhaps make a story more difficult to read.

Dialogue is sometimes tricky, and only practice will help you to master it and find your personal style for writing it well.


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## Shockley (Dec 25, 2012)

Ireth said:


> I disagree, sometimes those "inane" words can be necessary to convey a certain tone or quality of voice.



 My general opinion on this is that the words you use should convey the speaker's intentions. 

  I'm going to write out a scene from Hotel Chevalier (by Wes Anderson) just to provide an example of what I mean:

 She leaned back in the bed.
 "Promise me that in the morning we can still be friends?" She said coyly.
 He looked at her for a moment, confused, and leaned in close.
 "I promise you I will never be your friend." He said sarcastically.

 Now, a more bare-bones (and in my book better approach."

 She leaned back.
 "Promise me that in the morning we can still be friends?"
 He sat down and placed a hand on her shoulder. 
 "I promise you I will never be your friend."

 I think one has more punch, and allows for more nuance on the part of the writer and the reader.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Dec 25, 2012)

Although I prefer action tags, I don't mind other ways of writing. Sprinkle "he said"/"she said" in with other words. A lot of your choices have to do with finding your specific voice as a writer. If you don't know what to write now, that's okay, try different methods, look at what your favorite writers do. Once you pay attention to the particulars of your favorite books, you may be surprised at what you find.

The only thing I really don't have time for is adverbial tags. Like in the above example "she said coyly."  To me that's just lazy writing. It's telling where you should be showing. Just my opinion on that but the second writing of Shockley's excerpt is far superior. You may feel different.


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## Leif Notae (Dec 26, 2012)

But that is the human way. There is always action and activity when people are speaking, whether it be with their hands, their eyes, their head moving. No one stays static while they speak, so why should your dialogue turn out to make your character automatons?

It falls into the POV area too. We all know this person is SAYING something, much like they can see it, taste it, hear it, feel it, etc. Why tell me in a redundant feature that this person said it if you can avoid it? Is it a little more challenging when you get a third or four character in there? Yep. That's what being a writer is all about. Getting in there and doing the hard stuff, not the stuff that'll be hollow and easy.


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## BWFoster78 (Dec 26, 2012)

> But that is the human way. There is always action and activity when people are speaking, whether it be with their hands, their eyes, their head moving. No one stays static while they speak, so why should your dialogue turn out to make your character automatons?



Yes, but I don't see the relevance your comment has on creating good stories.  Just like I would never try to write dialogue that mimics a real exchange, I don't try to make my story a factual representation of what happened; I use every technique at my disposal to engage the reader in what is happening.

If you can do that solely with action tags, good on you.  I find it easier not to limit myself in that way.  I prefer action tags in general, but allowing myself to use speech tags when they fit helps me.



> That's what being a writer is all about. Getting in there and doing the hard stuff, not the stuff that'll be hollow and easy.



What being a writer is all about is telling a story.  Why make things harder on yourself than they need to be?

Speech tags serve a valid purpose; they inform the reader who is speaking.  I see no reason to try to eliminate them entirely.


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## wordwalker (Dec 26, 2012)

Rhythm, it's all rhythm and priority.

People absolutely shouldn't turn bodiless when conversation starts; a good "walk and talk" effect adds a lot to things. But it dilutes those punches when every paragraph adds a gesture, and like Penpilot said it starts to just look fidgety.

Clarifying tags are the same way. An obvious "coyly" weakens things --and so does a redundant Said-- but if it's a more important instant in the rhythm it might need something more than that. Or sometimes it's not vital, but there needs to be something to show it isn't in the obvious mode (or just a Said to reorient us on who it is), so the best way is to add a small thing and watch what that does to the balance of the others.


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## Leif Notae (Dec 26, 2012)

It has every relevance when it comes to creating characters you can identify with and relate to as being human. When someone says 

"I love you," Tommy said.

and that's it, there's no punch. However:

"I love you." Tommy looked at the ground and toed at an invisible rock. "I was hoping..."

The actions within the beats and the words themselves cast a better picture than just saying said.

And yes, sometimes the harder route is the better way to go. It will challenge you to do more and better than relying on verbal tropes at times.


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## Graylorne (Dec 26, 2012)

To my idea some speech tags can be handy. What I missed in Shockley’s example, was the emotion of the words. If you want to convey her being coy, you have to say so, sentences don’t sound coy by themselves or petulant, or demanding). Sarcasm is easier to write. Plus that in a dialogue what A says and what B, should be kept together, to prevent confusion. Those four sentences ought to be two. So I’d say:’



> She leaned back and her smile was coy. ‘Promise me that in the morning we can still be friends?’’
> He sat down and placed a hand on het shoulder. ‘I promise you I will never be your friend.



I’d like to use an example of myself. 



> So this is the Snake,  thought Hraab. He doesn’t look it.
> The Jarl frowned at the two boys. ‘Messenger? You two?’
> ‘Yes, lord,’ said Hraab. ‘Ban is my name and this is my cousin Ralf. We bring you a message from Jorgard.’
> The Jarl’s frown deepened. ‘Why didn’t Jorgard come himself?’
> ...



Here, I use three times 'said he'. To me, they are necessary for the variation. 
All other dialogue is by way of action. 
I'd think that this covers the opinions of both sides of the discussion? 

N.B. Last two posts not included in my post.


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## BWFoster78 (Dec 26, 2012)

Leif Notae said:


> It has every relevance when it comes to creating characters you can identify with and relate to as being human. When someone says
> 
> "I love you," Tommy said.
> 
> ...



"I love you," Tommy said.

In this version, the focus is on the words "I love you."  This works great if you're trying to make those words be impactful and convey simply that Tommy is the one saying it.

"I love you." Tommy looked at the ground and toed at an invisible rock. "I was hoping..."

This version emphasizes Tommy's attitude in saying the words.  If that's where the emphasis belongs, that's fantastic.  However, sometimes you want the words to stand out over the action or character's emotion.

Again, what does the story require?  Saying that one way is always the best seems limiting.


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## Butterfly (Dec 26, 2012)

From what I understand of this, the tags that are normally under debate aren't so much the he said /she said tags. These are regarded as invisible and need to be used in order to clarify who is speaking. Even with beats and actions they can't always bring that clarity without tags. You can't avoid them completely, and shouldn't try to just because its supposed to be a rule. In fact, the rules are ones that have come about to avoid *overusing* certain things, such as adverbs, not to avoid the use completely.

In the OP example I am feeling this confusion as to who is actually doing the talking in places, particularly when you have two characters in the same paragraph.

The tags that are advised to avoid, are such tags as - he growled, she shrieked, he postulated, she wailed, he shouted, she asked... anything that isn't a said.


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## Graylorne (Dec 26, 2012)

My point was, that sometimes you have to use a qualification. Not postulated, but shrieked, wailed, these things aren't clear in the text. So you have to find a way to indicate them, only not as a tag.


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## Shockley (Dec 26, 2012)

Granted, using 'yelled' and 'screamed' is sometimes necessary - hopefully, though, that's kept to a minimum.

 I'd suggest reading one of my favorite writers, Elmore Leonard. He started out in westerns (which is where I met him) but now he writes more difficult thrillers, mysteries, etc. He only ever uses '*blank* said' and he does it masterfully. Really the perfect example.


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## BWFoster78 (Dec 26, 2012)

Graylorne said:


> My point was, that sometimes you have to use a qualification. Not postulated, but shrieked, wailed, these things aren't clear in the text. So you have to find a way to indicate them, only not as a tag.



I'm not sure I agree with you on this one.

I tend to use "muttered" or "whispered" occasionally to indicate how the words were spoken.

I generally consider it poor craft to use the speech tag to try to convey emotion.  The words and the context should convey the emotion, not the tag.


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## Xaysai (Dec 26, 2012)

So what I've learned from this thread is the following:

1) He said/she said should be used sparingly, but are sometimes necessary to avoid confusion when more than one person is speaking.

2) Adverbial tags such as "He said coyly" shouldn't be used in place of more clear and proper beat or action tags, but might be necessary depending on the situation.

3) Overuse of He said/She said can become distracting and mire your storytelling in unwanted word clutter while overuse of beat or action tags can become distracting by making the characters seem "fidgety".

It sounds like He said/She said, adverbial tags and beat/action tags are all tools in our writers toolkit, and it's our job to select the best tool for the job.

It seems like the best thing for me to focus on while writing dialogue is asking "what am I trying to convey here, and what is the best tool for the job?"


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## Leif Notae (Dec 26, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> "I love you," Tommy said.
> 
> In this version, the focus is on the words "I love you."  This works great if you're trying to make those words be impactful and convey simply that Tommy is the one saying it.
> 
> ...



Then to each their own and the gods love us for our differences. 

It looks like the thread has answered the question asked, so I will leave this one be and let the debate continue without me.


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## BWFoster78 (Dec 26, 2012)

Xaysai said:


> So what I've learned from this thread is the following:
> 
> 1) He said/she said should be used sparingly, but are sometimes necessary to avoid confusion when more than one person is speaking.
> 
> ...



Xaysai,

I think you've got it, especially with that last line!

A final thought: any technique, no matter how awesome it is, tends to distract if overused.


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## Graylorne (Dec 26, 2012)

Xaysai said:


> So what I've learned from this thread is the following:
> 
> 1) He said/she said should be used sparingly, but are sometimes necessary to avoid confusion when more than one person is speaking.
> 
> ...



Yes, I'd say you're right. 

I'd say it even stronger: all those writing 'rules' suffer from the same problem. Someone understood wrong and wrote 'rules' instead of 'tools'. For they're all tools, you only have to know when to use them and when not.


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## Penpilot (Dec 26, 2012)

Xaysai said:


> It seems like the best thing for me to focus on while writing dialogue is asking "what am I trying to convey here, and what is the best tool for the job?"



Yes, like BW said, that's probably the most important thing to take out of this. 

Sure you can hammer a nail with a wrench, but should you? Some times if you're feeling wacky you'll do it just because it might be fun, and sometimes it's wiser not to. The choice is yours, and learning to deal with the choices in front of you is one of the things that's not emphasized enough about writing.


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## MAndreas (Dec 26, 2012)

You guys have some great stuff here, but also keep in mind said is often considered to be an invisable word- go pick up whatever book you're reading right now and if you really look for them, you'll most likely find alot.  Just something to think about- a beat of action is great, but sometimes an invisable tag is better .


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## T.Allen.Smith (Dec 26, 2012)

MAndreas said:


> You guys have some great stuff here, but also keep in mind said is often considered to be an invisable word- go pick up whatever book you're reading right now and if you really look for them, you'll most likely find alot.  Just something to think about- a beat of action is great, but sometimes an invisable tag is better .



I agree with this to a point. If every tag is "said John" "said Mary" "said Pete" that will stand out as well. Moderation is everything. Utilization of differing and alternating speech tag types, to avoid redundancy and patterns, work best for me as a reader and writer. Sometimes, in the telling of the story a particular method will work better with a particular line.


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## wordwalker (Dec 26, 2012)

MAndreas said:


> You guys have some great stuff here, but also keep in mind said is often considered to be an invisable word- go pick up whatever book you're reading right now and if you really look for them, you'll most likely find alot.  Just something to think about- a beat of action is great, but sometimes an invisable tag is better .





T.Allen.Smith said:


> I agree with this to a point. If every tag is "said John" "said Mary" "said Pete" that will stand out as well. Moderation is everything. Utilization of differing and alternating speech tag types, to avoid redundancy and patterns, work best for me as a reader and writer. Sometimes, in the telling of the story a particular method will work better with a particular line.



I'm with the Smith. Call it a petty peeve of mine:

_Said_ is "considered" invisible because _growled_ and the like are so much more visible, and easier to overuse. Yes, Said is often the right compromise between unclearness (taglessness) and risking excess (power verbs or beats), but let's not say it *can't* be overused just because other things go bad faster.


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## Penpilot (Dec 26, 2012)

wordwalker said:


> I'm with the Smith. Call it a petty peeve of mine:
> 
> _Said_ is "considered" invisible because _growled_ and the like are so much more visible, and easier to overuse. Yes, Said is often the right compromise between unclearness (taglessness) and risking excess (power verbs or beats), but let's not say it *can't* be overused just because other things go bad faster.



I'm reading a short story by Cory Doctorow right now, and as I read, it feels like a none stop barrage of 'said'. I shouldn't notice it but it's being used when it isn't necessary, and it's like a poke in the eye every time


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