# Modern Language In a Medieval/Middle Ages Setting



## teacup (Oct 20, 2013)

Last night in chat I mentioned how part of me wished I was writing modern fantasy, so that I could use modern words. Somebody then said that their story was set in medieval times, but they still used modern language. Their reasoning was that it was a made up fantasy world, they might not even be speaking English, and so the language was translated, so why not the modern translation?

I would think that using modern words and phrases in a Medieval or Middles Ages setting would be jarring and maybe even seem a bit lazy. I also understand that using modern language can make a character seem more informal, but there are other ways to make characters sound informal without the use of modern language.



So, what does everybody else think? Is it acceptable to use modern language, even though it doesn't fit the setting, or do you think that staying away from modern language for more realism is the way to go?


(I am not talking about actual medieval and middle ages language here. I don't want to write/read thees and thous all over the place. I am talking about simply not using any language which is modern.)


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 20, 2013)

I mused a little on this.

I think it may be easy to get hung up on the medieval vs modern distinction. Try and think of it as different cultures instead. Even in the modern day people from different backgrounds use different words for the same thing in their daily speech.

An old man who lived on a farm all his life will speak differently to a young kid growing up in the suburbs of a big city. I think you may be better off focusing on consistency than on trying to stick with words common to a medieval setting.

On the other hand, if you don't draw attention to it in the dialogue people probably won't notice. Just like you'll want to skip out on the thee's and thou's you also don't want to go full out with the yos and the sup dawgs. I think that if you just stick with correct spelling and grammar you've got half the battle won already.


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## GeekDavid (Oct 20, 2013)

teacup said:


> Last night in chat I mentioned how part of me wished I was writing modern fantasy, so that I could use modern words. Somebody then said that their story was set in medieval times, but they still used modern language. Their reasoning was that it was a made up fantasy world, they might not even be speaking English, and so the language was translated, so why not the modern translation?
> 
> I would think that using modern words and phrases in a Medieval or Middles Ages setting would be jarring and maybe even seem a bit lazy. I also understand that using modern language can make a character seem more informal, but there are other ways to make characters sound informal without the use of modern language.
> 
> ...



It depends on what words you're talking about.

If you have your medieval people communicating by telephone or writing on a computer, yes, you've got a problem.

On the other hand, if they simply use the word "communicate," that's probably not an issue. The words may be "modern" but the concept itself is as old as time.


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## teacup (Oct 20, 2013)

I don't think communicate is too bad, because it originated in 1520. But words from around 1900 being used in medieval settings might be jarring, no?
I'm on the fence about this now, and want to see what everyone thinks, still.


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## GeekDavid (Oct 20, 2013)

teacup said:


> I don't think communicate is too bad, because it originated in 1520. But words from around 1900 being used in medieval settings might be jarring, no?
> I'm on the fence about this now, and want to see what everyone thinks, still.



Okay, let's try another method of explaining it.

These people probably aren't actually speaking English, because they're on a world that never saw an England. They're communicating in the language of their country, and you -- the storyteller -- are translating it into English for the reader.

So it really doesn't matter unless it's extremely jarring.

Write it. Give it to your beta readers and your editor. If they flag it, you can deal with it later. If not, it's probably not a big deal.


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## teacup (Oct 20, 2013)

Okay, thanks. It seems that most are of the same opinion.
I originally didn't think at all about language, and just wrote it, until AE Lowan flagged up some parts, which made me think about it, and then I avoided modern language.


(If people still have arguments for or against, still, please post.)


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## GeekDavid (Oct 20, 2013)

teacup said:


> Okay, thanks. It seems that most are of the same opinion.
> I originally didn't think at all about language, and just wrote it, until AE Lowan flagged up some parts, which made me think about it, and then I avoided modern language.
> 
> (If people still have arguments for or against, still, please post.)



Well, if AE flagged some, then you should probably look closely at those sections she flagged. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


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## Philip Overby (Oct 20, 2013)

I fall into the camp where it doesn't bother me, but it seems to bother a lot of other people. For me, if I see "yeah" or "OK" or something like that, I don't care. If someone's saying "cool" or "dude" it seems a little more jarring for me. So in my case, it really just depends on the words and how frequently they're being used.


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## GeekDavid (Oct 20, 2013)

Phil the Drill said:


> I fall into the camp where it doesn't bother me, but it seems to bother a lot of other people. For me, if I see "yeah" or "OK" or something like that, I don't care. If someone's saying "cool" or "dude" it seems a little more jarring for me. So in my case, it really just depends on the words and how frequently they're being used.



True, you don't want your knight declaring himself "l33t."


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## Alexandra (Oct 20, 2013)

teacup said:


> So, what does everybody else think? Is it acceptable to use modern language, even though it doesn't fit the setting, or do you think that staying away from modern language for more realism is the way to go?



Stay away from using modern language if it doesn't fit the setting, tis _very_ jarring as you said yourself. If the tech level of your fantasy world was at bows and swords usage would your main character use a sniper rifle to take out an antagonist? Would she/he use a couple of grenades to clear a room in a castle or dungeon? If you answered 'No' to these questions then you cannot justify being lazy with language, and I think you know that.

As an aside, stay away from using 'thees and thous' as well, they sound horrible and based upon the little I know about the use of English in the past the usage of thees and thous was rare or unheard of. Methinks tis all Hollywood.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Oct 20, 2013)

teacup said:


> Is it acceptable to use modern language, even though it doesn't fit the setting, or do you think that staying away from modern language for more realism is the way to go?


You're likely using modern language in a medieval setting already. And, if you aren't, your prose is probably dreadful to read. Have you ever read writings from that period? It's very different from modern English. 

Your goal is to tell a story and have your reader not notice the writing. You're not going to please everyone in this regard. However, if you avoid modern clichÃ©s, turns of phrase, and things of this nature, you'll probably have less people notice the language. Normally, I don't think it's much of an issue. But, if it was something glaring like a phrase that originated in 1980, then it might be jarring.


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## Guru Coyote (Oct 20, 2013)

I generally agree with the "They aren't even speaking English" camp... but here's a thought:
The use of old vs. modern wording in writing does create a certain feeling in the reader. Like the example given of people in our times speaking differently depending on their background (rural vs. city...)
As such, "medieval language" might not be how the folk in your story actually speak, but writing them that way could set up the feeling you are aiming for.

Then again, consider this: the people in your story may well be the 'modern' ones in your world, looking back on those from 'older times.' In that case, writing your main characters with antique speech would be counter-productive.

I think my take here is all Zen-Coyote: It Be The Middle Road Ye Shall Travel.


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## teacup (Oct 20, 2013)

Thanks everyone. It looks like I'm going to carry on almost the same as I had been doing, but I'll allow myself some slightly more modern speech at times, like "yeah." 
I won't be quite as stingy with modern language, but I'll still be sure not to make it jarring.


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## Ireth (Oct 20, 2013)

Agreed with Coyote. I typically save things like thee and thou for gods and goddesses, who are even more ancient and immortal than Fae or elves. Even so, they don't show up in the stories much, which ensures the thees and thous aren't overdone.


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## SeverinR (Oct 21, 2013)

I avoid slang of periods, be it 20's,40's, 50's etc.
But using language of the time period would be extreme.  Anyone try reading Shakespeare? While a classic, not many people enjoy it for a light read.
Also someone trying to right in period would have to dedicate a lot of time to learn the dialog/mannerisms of then.  

Dude! Thou has dissed me too much in front of my posse, draw thy sword and lets rumble. I shall kick thy butt and jot down thy name."  Very bad dialog crossing 21st century, 20th century, 15th century?


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## Guru Coyote (Oct 21, 2013)

SeverinR said:


> Dude! Thou has dissed me too much in front of my posse, draw thy sword and lets rumble. I shall kick thy butt and jot down thy name."  Very bad dialog crossing 21st century, 20th century, 15th century?



I love it. 
Seriously, if one were to do this consistently, it could work.


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## GeekDavid (Oct 21, 2013)

Guru Coyote said:


> I love it.
> Seriously, if one were to do this consistently, it could work.



I could see that in a parody.


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## A. E. Lowan (Oct 21, 2013)

SeverinR said:


> Dude! Thou has dissed me too much in front of my posse, draw thy sword and lets rumble. I shall kick thy butt and jot down thy name."  Very bad dialog crossing 21st century, 20th century, 15th century?



OMG you nearly made me spit out my drink with this.  Well done!


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## robosnake (Oct 22, 2013)

FWIW, I would simply stick with what you write well. A lot of historical-sounding language is jarring for me because it is not language that the writer (screenwriter, etc.) is as proficient with. It is awkward and clunky and lacks the beauty it might otherwise have. I think for fantasy this is sometimes a holdover from Tolkien, but he was an Oxford don who specialized in the history of the English language, meaning his archaisms were very precise. He was writing what he wrote well. I definitely agree to avoid modern-sounding slang or jargon, and to bear in mind how the characters would sound to each other, but I would only try to write in a self-consciously archaic way if you are comfortable doing so. It's easier to forgive medieval people using modern language that it is to forgive awkward language, at least for me.


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## SeverinR (Oct 22, 2013)

GeekDavid said:


> I could see that in a parody.



I could see this, definately a parody.


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## buyjupiter (Oct 22, 2013)

SeverinR said:


> But using language of the time period would be extreme.  Anyone try reading Shakespeare? While a classic, not many people enjoy it for a light read.



While I do enjoy Shakespeare as a bit of light reading, anything I read now had better be in modern English. I get footnotes and scene notes in Shakespeare and I expect it to take a bit longer to read than normal. (Though I've read and reread the plays so often I don't really need the footnotes anymore). If an author does provide that kind of thing then it had better be amusing a la Terry Pratchett's asides within asides or Susanna Clarke's world building notes/snark. These are just personal preferences, mind you.

I guess my main point is you expect to read a story that's written in the style of language that is currently spoken. When you make it sound authentic to that time period it reads as gimmicky.

 Another thing to think about is "is this the clearest way of saying something or will I lose the reader?" If the goal is a very educated student of languages, go right ahead with the antiquated language. If it's not, pick up a non-modernized/translated version of the Canterbury tales or Beowulf. The sentence structure, the passivity, the unclear pronoun usage all combine to make it more difficult to understand. Both of these stories have beautiful language, but it is very dense. I only made it through the Canterbury Tales by reading a text that had the original text juxtaposed against a modern translation.


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## A. E. Lowan (Oct 23, 2013)

One movie that I think rather brilliantly handled the issue of communicating modern language in a Medieval setting was _A Knight's Tale_.  The movie makers could just as easily have made it purely a period piece, but they wanted to make the cultural translation of life and sport from then into our modern context, to showcase how it was really viewed during the period.  Case in point, the dance scene.  Pay close attention to the shift from period music and dance to modern...






This is basically what we are doing as fantasy writers when we incorporate relatively modern English phrases into our fantasy.  It's understood that our characters are probably not speaking English, but to communicate our stories we have to set them within a certain modern narrative context for the reader to understand and connect.


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## GeekDavid (Oct 23, 2013)

About the only time I didn't find a lot of thees and thous distracting in writing was in David Eddings' Belgariad, where there was a culture who always spoke very formally. One of the main characters was from this culture, but there were also a few bit characters with that speech style.

It was, however, handled adroitly enough and explained well enough that it didn't distract from the story -- rather, it added color to it, I think.


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## SeverinR (Oct 23, 2013)

I use thee's and thou's for noble proclamations and announcements and such. Not for every day speak.
Heralds have to show off the eliquence at which they can turn a phrase.

I was (hope to be again) a member of the SCA. I was listening to a Bard/herald telling of the origin of the song. I was like dang this guy can rattle on and on. Then I relaized, that is his job as a herald.

example: Lifeblood, performed by Jean de Montagne - YouTube


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