# Do you care about Psychology?



## 2WayParadox (Dec 13, 2014)

It might be something that I do because I am a psychologist by training, though not a clinical psychologist, but I tend to read non-fiction psychology books speaking about roughly the subject I want to write about.

The only novel I've finished to date has as its core subjects BDSM and sexual addiction. Both are more complicated than the general public thinks, both are things that define people. The complexities that are involved are both fascinating and sad at times. I'm working on a follow up novel that carries on the BDSM subject, but instead of sexual addiction I've opted for (sexual) abuse as my second subject. I did my research and found some materials. To me it's always very important that the book I read has a personal voice, I'm not looking for the strictly scientific view. I want someone who writes with compassion and the thought of helping those in need at the fore.

That's some background, it's probably not relevant to anybody writing fantasy. It's just letting you know where I'm coming from. What is is the following:

I'm currently working on figuring out the scenes I want to have in my first fantasy novel. The MC is part of an assassin organization and accidently poisons some children in the beginning of the story, she struggles with that and at the end of the story, her failure is compounded by an even larger one. (it's harsh, but I guess I'm not the nicest person out there)

To try and understand the struggle of someone who has killed, I read the book 'On killing' by Dave Grossman. It talks about the psychological difficulties involved in killing and the methods that have been found to overcome them. It goes into a lot of depth about the experience Vietnam veterans went through, they were conditioned to kill and returned to scorn and indifference, instead of support. It led to dire consequences.

Is this the kind of thing you guys do during your research phase? I'm just curious.


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## Tom (Dec 13, 2014)

I also care deeply about psychology in my writing. I write a lot of dark fantasy, but I don't like writing a lot of gore and violence, so I use psychological horror to make up for that. It's also more interesting than writing gory stuff. 

I have a manic-depressive MC, a side character who struggles with survivor's guilt, and a mage who may or may not have mild schizephrenia. Aside from that, most of my themes are psychological--the main one for my WIP is "you are your own greatest enemy", and a major sub-theme explores the social and internal struggles someone would face for belonging to two different, opposing groups, whether it's people-groups or professions such as wizard and warrior. 

I won't get into all the issues I explore, because that would take all day, and I would enjoy it far too much.

So yeah, psychology is definitely something I research for my writing.


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## 2WayParadox (Dec 13, 2014)

When I read these books I come across things that I feel are true, but at the same time I realize that the general public/the average reader will not have that background. How do you reconcile mirroring the reality of things with the expectations of the reader and, by extension, what he is likely to understand or accept?


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## Nobby (Dec 13, 2014)

Erm, that is quite patronising two-way.


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## 2WayParadox (Dec 13, 2014)

Is it? Before I did my research I didn't realize that I didn't know anything about a subject like abuse, it's only after I read and thought over the accounts of experienced people that I fully understood how little I knew. If I consider myself a normal person, then by extension it's within expectations that others will have the same limited understanding, unless they went through something that touches on the subject. So when I write something that's informed by facts that are real but not well known, will readers accept it?


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## Steerpike (Dec 13, 2014)

I don't worry two much about psychology in the abstract - in other words, applying psychological principles to determine how a character will react. When I create a character I give that character the personality traits I want her to have, and my only real concern when writing the character is having them behave in a way that is logical for that particular character, whether or not principles of psychology say she might be more likely to do x than y.


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## Nobby (Dec 13, 2014)

Sorry, Two-way, I didn't mean that to sound nasty, but the way you phrased that made it seem that 'the average person' couldn't possibly understand what you said. Personally, I re-read it and -did- understand what you meant.

However, it did read awkwardly (Bad phrasing there, but you know what is meant-Hint, Hint).


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## T.Allen.Smith (Dec 13, 2014)

The conversation is heading in different directions, as they often do. I'm going to answer both sides of the conversation.

First, concerning psychology in my writing. Yes, I consider it...sometimes. 

One of my favorite genres to write in is the psychological thriller, typically with a supernatural tint. Most main characters are deeply flawed, carrying the weight of psychological damage. I have a degree in psychology, so I think that helps a bit with the research and knowing something about how accepted "facts" and psychological understandings line up. However, if my reader needs an in-depth understanding of the DSM-4 to "get" what I'm writing, I've failed them as a storyteller. The impacts of trauma, depression, abuse, or any other, needs to feel real...that is true. But, each character should be approached as a unique individual. Things that occurred in their past, how they manage to cope (or not), and how those events color their daily lives and reactions may be important, but everything should be focused toward character, not condition. 

Lastly, one of the cardinal sins in writing is assuming your readers aren't as smart as the writer. Now, I understand that's not what you said in the above posts...I'm taking it a step farther to illustrate a point. 

Whenever you write, whatever you write, never make the mistake of assuming the audience is any less intelligent than you are. - Rod Serling

As long as you do your job as a storyteller well, you should trust your reader. They'll love you for it.


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## Nobby (Dec 13, 2014)

It is always useful to read all sides as valuable


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## K.S. Crooks (Dec 13, 2014)

I tend to not research psychology but instead base characters on a combination of qualities from different people I have met. So you could say my research has be going on all my life. Now I am applying the information. If you want to show your MC struggling with what has happened and their role in it then use what you know. You passion for psychology will come through in your writing and the reader will enjoy the story even more. It is the same as a murder mystery writer doing research of forensic science.

For your story, you state the MC accidentally poisoned some children. What I would clarify is if it was an "accident" or an "incident". What I mean by this is for example a person is driving their car at half the 1/2 the speed limit, they pass over black ice on the road that causes them to skid and kill a man, accident. The same person is texting while driving and hits a man, incident. To me an occurrence is only an accident if you are doing everything properly and something unintended happens. Another way to view it is that accidents can be good or bad, incidents are always bad. Good luck in your writing.


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## Tom (Dec 13, 2014)

Just realized I misspelled "schizophrenia" in my early post. It must be finals getting to me...

Anyway, just wanted to share a thought that occurred to me. What I find awkward about putting psychology in a fantasy setting is that you usually have to rename it. Like amnesia, PTSD, inferiority complex, OCD...you name it. It sometimes feels silly to tack a made-up name onto a real-life concept.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Dec 13, 2014)

Tom Nimenai said:


> Just realized I misspelled "schizophrenia" in my early post. It must be finals getting to me...
> 
> Anyway, just wanted to share a thought that occurred to me. What I find awkward about putting psychology in a fantasy setting is that you usually have to rename it. Like amnesia, PTSD, inferiority complex, OCD...you name it. It sometimes feels silly to tack a made-up name onto a real-life concept.



Depends on the fantasy setting. Medieval, yes...but you could describe the impact of the disorder, without naming it, and trust your reader to understand. For urban fantasies, it's not an issue. For historical fantasy, it'd depend on what they called the disorder in another era, if it was known at the time.


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## spectre (Dec 13, 2014)

I'm on my first novel so my tendencies aren't really established. I have read 'On Killing' too but to be honest it didn't seem a very scientific book where knowledge was being revealed that was previously hidden. Between the media, and movies, and public awareness I was aware of much of the conditions of that book.

That being said, I found Jung's archetypes very useful to me in my fantasy development. I even went so far as to find archetypes and motifs he hadn't written about which I had seen or read about in movies or philosophy or whatever.

The psychological state of your character is going to have bearing, but not merely as character information. The symptoms are going to make you scared and sad, they are going to thrill you and confuse you. Your character is more defined by their reactions to the condition I think.

And insofar as it's place in fantasy, one of my characters is a loyalist. Plain out, I want to be true to that idea in developing the character, so I think it'll have it's place in my fantasy writing. And I'm sure that other psychology aspects will influence my writing as well.


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## 2WayParadox (Dec 13, 2014)

I've had some useful comments but now I want to take it a step further:

say I want a realistic reflection of what for example an abuse victim goes through in my novel. Some things are necessary like at least one instance of the victim being abused and scenes showing the victim's struggle.

If I really aim to be realistic and I succeed in it, then the reader will be reading something that makes him or her experience somewhat the same feeling. Does a reader want that? It's the same reason that's holding me back from really unleashing on my MC, does a reader want to see my MC failing and then scraping by in the end, instead of getting a nice, rounded ending.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Dec 13, 2014)

2WayParadox said:


> If I really aim to be realistic and I succeed in it, then the reader will be reading something that makes him or her experience somewhat the same feeling. Does a reader want that? It's the same reason that's holding me back from really unleashing on my MC, does a reader want to see my MC failing and then scraping by in the end, instead of getting a nice, rounded ending.


One thing I've learned about writing over the years is to write the book you'd want to read. If you write to please everyone, your work will resonate with no one. Id much rather turn off, or even alienate, some readers than the alternative, which is creating something so bland and flavorless that no person has any reaction or connection to the work. 

There are many people in this world. A lot have similar tastes and inclinations as you. Put yourself out there and write for them. 

So the real question is, would you enjoy reading that?


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## psychotick (Dec 16, 2014)

Hi,

Actually one of my undergrad degrees was in psych - including abnormal. I also worked for a while as a carer in an institution. The one thing that screams out at me from what you've said is that want a realistic idea of what an abuse victim goes through. It sort of implies there is one. My experience is that there isn't. Every person is an individual, and their experiences of abuse, even identical abuse, will be different. Often extremely different. There is no "typical" scenario.

My advice would be to read the biographies of those who have suffered abuse and recovered sufficiently to write about their experiences. Then base your character on the experiences of one of them - though of course being careful not to either identify the individual or plagerise the work.

A word of warning, some of them can be truly shocking - especially since many victims find that writing about their experiences can be a form of catharsis, and they don't hold back.

Cheers, Greg.


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## 2WayParadox (Dec 16, 2014)

I agree, psychotick. I also don't want to write an 'average victim', there's no point in that. I've already written a sex addict and posted the story on a site, I didn't get a lot of responses but I got a few people who went out of their to tell me that they recognized themselves in what I wrote and who thanked me for it. I thinks it's a good idea to know about the 'average' though, that way you won't go off into the deep end and write something that's unacceptable to people who actually went through something similar.

Honestly, it's not that I want to write about psychological disorders. Most of them are rare and while some of them make for rich story motifs (split personality for example), it feels too much like how I feel about memory loss stories. 

What shocked me more than some of the accounts I've read is the statistics. Europe and America are considered as civilized and modern countries, there are issues but everything is largely ok. That's the image I have, it is then particularly confronting to read that a third or more of the women in our society are submitted to rape or assault at least once throughout their lifetime. And a vast majority of them never talks about it.

That's just unacceptable. But what would a woman like that accept from a random guy like me? I can try and write about the struggle and if I succeed in entwining the story of that struggle with a story of a Ds relationship, which requires so much of that which she has lost long ago, trust, then I hope that possibilities will come to light. Joining the terrible and the beautiful together, that's what I really want to do with those stories. But god are they hard to write sometimes. I'm not a very emotional kind of guy, at least not on the outside.

Allen Smith asked if I would enjoy reading that. I believe I would, I have read things like it although there's not much fiction about rape victims. I'm pretty immune to horror, but some of the things I read I couldn't even come up with if I was trying to think up ways to torture someone. The far reaching consequences and the impact on the family of the victim are another dimension. In many cases they're never seen the same again or they're ignored, or an actual family member was the abuser, which compounds the earlier mentioned problems. It leaves scars and troubles the rest of their lives, even if they work through it.

And while I think the term survivor is melodramatic, I do feel respect for these women who fought to overcome their pasts. It makes me glow inside to know that they succeeded.

One story that I read, which blew me away at the end to hear that it was based on true facts, started with a girl who got brutally gang raped. She struggled, which made it even worse for her. She eventually escaped, but she was within an inch of her life, the damage to her body took months and several operations to heal, she had to have her uterus removed, it goes on. She locked herself, lashed out at everything. *Nine* months of hospital and locking herself up later, her father couldn't bare to see it anymore and was desperate to get her out of her misery. 

He barged into her room with no plan, all he wanted to do was get her out of there. I don't quite remember how the scene went, but it ends with the daughter asking the father to have sex with her. He's the only person she still trusts, so he's the only person who can give her intimacy. Incest is a recurring theme in erotica, I don't get it but many people apparently struggle with fantasies of incest. But I felt this was different. This transcended their father-daughter relationship, to me there was no way he could refuse his daughter. Of course, there are many reasons why he should have refused her, many risks that could be apparent later. But I honestly think I wouldn't even think it over for very long in that situation. 

Throughout the story the father gathers more and more women around him who have been victims of rape in varying degrees, some of the stories are crazy, involving even plastic surgery aimed at enhancing the bodies of these women. I won't go into detail. He doesn't want them to flock around him, but they do anyway. The story only mentions I think about 10 women, but the mention at the back talks about as much as 18 or even more women joining this man's 'group'. 

There were a good amount of sex scenes in this story, but I didn't respond to them as I did to other stories. I was looking at them differently, I was seeing these women draw deeper things from experiencing care and intimacy. They could connect with the other women in the group, couples were formed, some left the group, others betrayed the group in ways they regretted but were forgiven for. This one man tried to give each one of them whatever he could, he was their rock and didn't refuse them unless he was thoroughly convinced it would be bad for them. Each of the women had hidden away for years. It was so hard for them to find anyone who they thought would understand that they got over the treshold of joining a group like that. 

To me, this man at the center of the group of women was a great man. I was deeply impressed. The story showed the destructive things that can happen because of sex and the great things that can happen through it. It wasn't a published ebook or anything, it was hidden away on a site were people post free stories in installments. So I can't be for sure that it is actually based on true facts, but if it is then it has established both my disenchantment with and belief in humanity. I guess every extraordinary human can only come to the stage after other, equally extraordinary people have brutally ****ed thigns up.


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## Mythopoet (Dec 17, 2014)

If by "Psychology" you mean the (so-called) "scientific study of human functions and behaviors", then no. Do not care about it or trust it. 

If by "psychology" you mean "trying to understand the inner life of my characters", then yes. 

I feel the same way minor character William Hingest from C. S. Lewis' That Hideous Strength does:

"I happen to believe that you can't study men; you can only get to know them, which is quite a different thing."


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## 2WayParadox (Dec 17, 2014)

I agree and because I do, I will say the following:

the scientific stuff is real, it pays to read about it and about the experience of those who deal with it
it gives you solid ground to stand on
the next step is then the realm of the writer, the thing we agree upon


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## Mythopoet (Dec 17, 2014)

2WayParadox said:


> I agree and because I do, I will say the following:
> 
> the scientific stuff is real, it pays to read about it and about the experience of those who deal with it



Well, I could debate that, but I doubt it would be worth it. I'll just say that I do not think there is much, if any, scientific value in studies such as psychology or sociology. Pretty much all the experiments done in those fields are hugely flawed, because they make too many faulty assumptions and because it is really impossible for one human being to objectively study another.


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## BronzeOracle (Dec 18, 2014)

2WayParadox said:


> What shocked me more than some of the accounts I've read is the statistics. Europe and America are considered as civilized and modern countries, there are issues but everything is largely ok. That's the image I have, it is then particularly confronting to read that a third or more of the women in our society are submitted to rape or assault at least once throughout their lifetime. And a vast majority of them never talks about it.



I remember reading 1 in 4.  As a guy its pretty confronting, something we just don't need to think about in our daily lives.  It's not on our radar that our date/partner could harm us or others.

I wouldn't assume that our civilised/modern societies are all OK - I spent 2 years working in India and when I came back I was amazed at how sad and stressed out people were in Australia, who by comparison to Indians were incredibly wealthy.  This is not at all to say that things were rosy in India (forget the 'noble savage' or 'poor but happy' stereotype), there was a lot of stress and sadness there too.  I remember coming back to Australia and feeling the materialism like an almost tangible presence, it was amazing, then after 2 weeks I got used to it and didn't notice it anymore.  While things are much better in Australia materially and education wise (we have free healthcare), we have a long long way to go.  Its only recently in Australia that mental illness and sexual assault have been brought into the limelight.


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## Guy (Dec 20, 2014)

I think in order to create an authentic character you're going to have to use psychology to some degree. I've read a fair amount about serial killers and sexual predators and I end up using that when creating villains. One thing I learned is that they really aren't Hannibal Lecter/evil genius types. In fact, they have a remarkable lack of emotional maturity, resulting in them being some of the most pathetic SOBs in the world. This results in creating villains who might appear to be implacable bad asses at first, but when you get to see inside them, you see what sorry wastes of humanity they really are. It also usually results in the protagonist emotionally taking them apart at some point, ripping away their intimidating exteriors and leaving them psychologically wrecked.


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## Lily Maeve La Fey (Dec 29, 2014)

I'm a fellow psych student, and I may be biased as well, but I find I care much more about believable character psychology and venturing deep into their minds than any other aspect of the novel. However when believable characters, settings and a fantastic plot comes together I am purring like a kitten!


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