# Sexually explicit in fantasy - yay or nay?



## Reilith

Do you write sexually explicit scenes in you works? If no - why, if yes - why and to what extent? Do you think it helps the plot or is it emotional padding? Is sex a thing to avoid in fantasy altogether or something to glance over for plot relevance but not go into it and deeper?

Share your thoughts.


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## Ireth

No. Don't read it, don't write it. Sexually explicit stuff turns me right off; I either just skim past it or, in more extreme cases, put the book down. The furthest I've gone in my own writing is some cuddles before the happy couple blows out the candle and I do a scene break.


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## Tom

Er, a resounding no from me. I shy away from sexual content in books, explicit or not. I don't have a problem with sex; I just don't want to read about the hero's adventures in the bedroom. If I'm writing a story that features characters who are sexually active, I do my best to imply that relationship through dialogue and actions _outside_ the bedroom. 

Sometimes when I read books that feature a couple, I notice that sex is substituted for quality character and relationship development. The author seems to be copping out of writing an actual _relationship_, using the excuse of, "Well, they have awesome sex--they must love each other!" I prefer to see a romantic relationship demonstrated through emotional connection, ability to work as a team, compassion and sensitivity toward each other, and other features of a loving bond.


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## Chessie

I'm with Ireth on this. Explicit sex is just for erotica but this is a personal preference. The most I've done is written a couple of sentences referring to the act followed by a new scene or chapter. I have read stories in the past with a lot of sex that didn't serve any purpose and just annoyed me, so I dont like to do it.


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## Feo Takahari

Ouchie. *Has written sexually explicit fantasy.*

While it's the urban sort of fantasy, and hence not the usual style here, I think _My Lovely Ghost Kana_ is a good case for depicting sex as part of depicting a relationship. Some of the sex could certainly have been cut, in the same sense that some of the fight scenes could have been cut from _The Avengers_, but the sex makes the story better and cuter, and helps to develop the couple.


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## Xitra_Blud

No. There is always little to no sex in my work. I'm sure it has to do with me as the writer as I tend to think sex scenes in other people work are a waste of my time but the only time I have some sort of sexual material in my stuff is when it is really called for. Which is odd, because the vast majority of my villain are sexy, hot men. xD


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## X Equestris

No, I prefer to write around sex.  Cut away before the act, or some time after.  There are a lot of ways to screw up a written sex scene.  To me, it's just not worth it.


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## buyjupiter

Ireth said:


> The furthest I've gone in my own writing is some cuddles before the happy couple blows out the candle and I do a scene break.



I think I need more books with well written cuddle scenes! 

I have, however, written one explicit short story--just to see if I could do the actual technical writing. I am still horribly embarrassed by it and I think it's properly removed from the interwebs, but I'm sure I'll be hearing about it again.


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## Nimue

I'm not averse to sexual content in fantasy, but like 90% of it is poorly written and not engaging.  The (two, maybe?) sex scenes that I've liked in fantasy books focused on the characters rather than the sex they were having, and was stylistically interesting instead of being rote.

I have written sex scenes, always to further the plot or character development in a specific way, but I don't know if you'd call them explicit.  I tend to summarize rather than cutting away, but there's still a lot left to the imagination (or _not_ to imagine, as many readers would prefer).  If something goes into paragraphs of "Tab A into Slot B" and "It was so hot." and things like that, count me out.


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## Reilith

As for me, I have mixed thoughts about it. I haven't written it in fantasy yet, not that I am qualmish about the subject, but I simply don't see it fit into my fantasy writing style. As for general fiction, my writing began with fan fiction and homoerotic role-plays online, so I know that I _can_ write them. I just don't see them fitting for the occasion. Maybe I'd just skim over it in the future, write about the feelings of the act instead of general sexual terminology.


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## Jabrosky

I have written sexually explicit scenes before and have no qualms about doing so again. All art is about self-expression to one degree or another, and a raging sex drive can provide just as much inspiration as, say, sorrow or embarrassment. It can also factor in as a character motivation, as you can discern from all those classic stories about heroic men rescuing maidens from dragons. After all, what straight man wouldn't beat up a dragon if it stood in the way of a hot chick?

As for whether a sex scene would interrupt the flow of the story, presumably by distracting from the main plot, you could always slip it into an appendix after the main story as if it were some kind of "dessert" for your readers. Of course, even if you never write that scene yourself, there will always be fans willing to fill in that blank with their own creative talents.


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## Legendary Sidekick

GRRM's work has everything, including sex. So, yeah, I read it and I'm not easy to offend.

But write it… no, not me. My seven-year-old's an avid reader, so I'll want to stick to stories and drawings I'm proud to show her.


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## PS Extraordinary Tales

I have no desire to read sexually explicit scenes in a work of fiction, so I don't put any in my own work. Seems like I'm in good company there.


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## cupiscent

I've written plenty of explicit sex scenes (I put in a lot of my practice words in fanfiction, much of it explicit) but that doesn't mean every time my characters get intimate, it has to be explicit. Sometimes the details of the act are important - for instance, illustrating specific trust issues or the nature (or lack) of the bond between the characters. When you get right down to it, sex can be one of the most intense experiences two people undergo together, so it can include elements of your characters and story that should be shown. But if not, those details - like any other details - are gratuitous and probably shouldn't be included.


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## Penpilot

I don't write it. I don't have an explanation other than that's not the type of stories I'm interested in writing, for now at least. Whether explicit sex belongs or not depends on the story. From my understanding, explicit sex should be an integral part of the story. Like anything else it should serve a purpose.

If not, then it's just [email protected] There's nothing wrong with that, but there are stories where explicit sex plays a significant part in the whole and stories where the sex is the whole point to it.


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## T.Allen.Smith

"Sex is difficult to write about because it's just not sexy enough. The only way to write about it is to not write much. Let the reader bring his own sexuality into the text."
- Toni Morrison

That pretty much sums up my feelings. As such, I'd rather start the scene at the end of the sex act, or end the scene at the beginning of the act. The rest I leave up to the reader's imagination.


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## Fyle

Tom Nimenai said:


> Er, a resounding no from me. I shy away from sexual content in books, explicit or not. I don't have a problem with sex; I just don't want to read about the hero's adventures in the bedroom. If I'm writing a story that features characters who are sexually active, I do my best to imply that relationship through dialogue and actions _outside_ the bedroom.



I guess you don't like a Song of Ice and Fire much? One great scene connecting Daenerys and Carl Drogo was described through sex. It can color a relationship in a unique way. Not that I enjoy or care if there is sex (I am neutral on the matter), just saying, why throw out a tool?

When it is necessary for plot or character development, or maybe a deeper meaning (someone gets pregnant and you want to show the conception for some reason), there is no reason to cut it just because it is "sex." 

Or, of course if you are writing YA novels (but then you can skip this thread I guess because the reason you don't include sex is obvious)

If you are an adult yourself and have sex, there is no logical reason it should "turn you off" in a story that strides for realism and immesion. If you are an adult who does not have sex, and strays away from it because sex turns you off in real life, than sure, I understand that. It's just part of life. 

I am not saying have a porn scene or be graphic, but there is no reason you can't have _a few _lines someplace about it if it is written in a classy and relevant manner.

My completed WIP is 60 chapters, I have 2-3 brief sex scenes I found to be relevant. For the sake of variety, I cannot think of a reason to cut them, nor is there a need to aside from being scared they will turn people off (but the second best selling fantasy series of all time has plenty, so, I'm pretty comfortable with the few short scenes I have).


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## Clinton Seeber

Sure, just write Fifty Shades of Middle-Earth! On a more serious note, I don't think there is a need for sex scenes in traditional high fantasy unless it is like the rape scene in Stephen R. Donaldson's Lord Foul's Bane. That was obviously essential to the plot and story and many things that came after in The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.


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## Fyle

Too be fair, the OP did say *explicit* sex scenes...

Not sex or no sex, so, I kind of answered a different question.

I am fine with sex, but there is no need for it to be very detailed...


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## CupofJoe

I've written Romance and Seduction scenes [not as well as I'd like but okay for now...] that have included sex.
I've even tried writing a rape, but found that far too far outside my comfort zone.
I've written explicit sex scenes and then wondered why... They usually aren't intrinsic to the plot, rarely add to the development of characters and just slows the action down. And very boring to read... If I want to fantasise about X character and Y character having sex... I can fantasise about that without putting it into words...


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## Mythopoet

Fyle said:


> I guess you don't like a Song of Ice and Fire much? One great scene connecting Daenerys and Carl Drogo was described through sex. It can color a relationship in a unique way. Not that I enjoy or care if there is sex (I am neutral on the matter), just saying, why throw out a tool?



Because it's not a tool that fits the job you're trying to accomplish? Like a dentist using a power drill or an archeologist using dynamite. And yes, I hate A Song of Ice and Fire. 

No sexually explicit scenes fore me either. I don't like reading it or writing it. That doesn't mean no sex. It means talking about (briefly, I don't like whole scenes devoted to sex in any terms) it in terms that are not anywhere near explicit or the good old fade to black. Sex scenes are just not at all the type of experience I'm looking for in my reading material or in the stories I write.


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## Velka

I wouldn't be adverse to writing sex scenes into my work if they added something important to the story or characters, but thus far I've never written a story where one was necessary. _Explicit_ sex scenes however, ugh, there's so many ways those can go wrong.

I read and write fantasy for adventure, characters facing overwhelming challenges and growing from them, and the occasional dragon.  Heaving breasts and throbbing members need not apply.

I've read some general fiction/sci-fi/fantasy where sex was included in various detail. I find, as a reader, I prefer 'alluded to' sex scenes much more than paragraphs of explicit detail. The latter are usually jarring and read more like the closed captioning of a porn movie.


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## PaulineMRoss

{Holds hand up} 

My books all end up with a certain amount of sex in them. They have a strong romantic element, and if you're exploring the development of a human relationship that's going to end in sex, then addressing that in more than vague terms becomes essential, I think. 

The first time a couple have sex is such a major change in the relationship, that it would feel like cheating to fade to black and skip straight to the next morning. And where sex is part of the conflict between a couple, it really can't be ignored. There are ways of making the same point (like talking about it afterwards, or whatever), but to my mind there's no substitute for being there with the two of them, knowing what they say, how they behave, how they feel. It doesn't have to be wildly explicit, though, just enough to give the general idea.

But for those who don't deal with romance, or leave it at the Aragorn/Arwen level of tastefulness, it's not necessary, no.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Fyle said:


> One great scene connecting Daenerys and Carl Drogo was described through sex. It can color a relationship in a unique way.


Great example. In this case it certainly served a story purpose to actually show the act, Drogo continuing the domination of a submissive Daenerys...the baseline of her character arc and transformation to a powerful leader.


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## Reilith

Why I actually asked this question is because I am thinking of portraying a certain amount of sex in my wip, even though the first novel follows the MC as a young adult/teen. But since I am making this hid coming of age story (while the 2nd and 3rd are when he's over twenty) I think that some sexual portrayal is necessary to show his growth and his coming to terms with homosexuality. I do think I will keep it tasteful and short, just enough to show what is necessary for character development, not word filler.


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## Chessie

Reilith, if you believe writing sex scenes develops your plot and characters, then go ahead and do so. How much of it you write depends on your comfort level and your target audience. Keep them in mind.



T.Allen.Smith said:


> Great example. In this case it certainly served a story purpose to actually show the act, Drogo continuing the domination of a submissive Daenerys...the baseline of her character arc and transformation to a powerful leader.


Not to be a prude, but I actually hated this scene and found it offensive. Oh, so she can only transform as a woman through sex? That's what that scene had me thinking, that she wouldn't have otherwise been a great and powerful leader if Drogo hadn't asserted sexual dominance over her. So...she didn't have a brain or any other skills to develop maturity? This is one of the reasons that yes, I do boycott A Song Of Ice And Fire. I don't think that scene developed her at all and just made her look bad. Rant over (with much respect dear moderator). 

Sex is one of those tricky writing tools. I don't mind it in the appropriate setting/story like in Pauline's romance novels. That's what its meant for. But if its an epic fantasy or a regular tale, it just doesn't fit for me.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Chesterama said:


> Not to be a prude, but I actually hated this scene and found it offensive. Oh, so she can only transform as a woman through sex? That's what that scene had me thinking, that she wouldn't have otherwise been a great and powerful leader if Drogo hadn't asserted sexual dominance over her. So...she didn't have a brain or any other skills to develop maturity?


You may be missing my point. The scene doesn't serve to show her becoming a woman through sex. Sexual activity doesn't define womanhood. Rather, it serves as a starting point.    

Her brother dominated her & kept her under his thumb...a tool for his reclamation of the throne. Drogo continued that domination in their first sex scene. The scene serves as the baseline, the bottom rung of her character arc, if you will, in becoming Khaleesi & Mother of Dragons.

Could she have risen to power without submission to Drogo? Probably, the character is clever, compassionate, & bold. But, the transformation would not be as dramatic.  

Applying a baseline like this one to the arc, grounds the reader in a past far removed from the Queen she becomes.


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## Philip Overby

I don't typically write sex scenes in fantasy works myself and I'm not a huge fan of reading them either. If they're done well, I don't mind them as much though. I tend to have lots of violence in my stories, so I can't really rail against people that use a lot of sex. But it's just my personal preference to not write it. 

While I'm a fan of A Song of Ice and Fire, I may be able to clarify why some think these scenes are important without getting too graphic. Basically, when Drogo and Dany are first together, he was dominant. Then when she decided she didn't want to be dominated anymore, so she decided what to do. This is just one thing that showed her evolution as a character. I didn't see it as "This is the moment she becomes powerful," but as one of several smaller moments. I think her big moments came towards the end of the first book and involved her taking the reigns completely.

Edit: T. Allen ninja'd me.


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## Chessie

I understand your point completely, T.Allen. I was simply providing a different (female) perspective on it. And I still disagree. She could have done without that scene, just my 2 cents.


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## SD Stevens

If I remember right it wasn't that she was innocent, Daenerys leads the way so to speak. But that brings up another subject (films/tv spoiling the dam plot line and adding sex!


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## T.Allen.Smith

Chesterama said:


> I understand your point completely, T.Allen. I was simply providing a different (female) perspective on it. And I still disagree. She could have done without that scene, just my 2 cents.


I appreciate the perspective. 

Yes, she could've had a low baseline set by having her early submissiveness formed in another fashion, other than sex. 

I can't disagree with that. However, I wonder any other choice GRRM could've made would create the same visceral reaction in his readers. 

Interesting to think about.


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## T.Allen.Smith

SD Stevens said:


> If I remember right it wasn't that she was innocent, Daenerys leads the way so to speak.


That happened later. 

We're discussing the initial marriage consummation.


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## SD Stevens

That's the one I'm thinking of, she wasn't as 'pure' as the TV program made out.


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## Nimue

Those scenes always made me uncomfortable because she was thirteen or fourteen in them.

ASoIaF is really well written and plotted and everything, but they're not books I've re-read.  If I have a choice, I prefer satisfying endings and unproblematic sex.

That sounds like a massive double-entendre. Then again, a lot of this thread does.


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## Russ

I have not written any explicit sex scenes in my fantasy nor do I think I will as they arn't really needed to tell the story I am trying to tell.

I certainly don't mind reading them.  I love sensuallity well written, like Anne Rice writes for example, or her son Chris for that matter.

I don't read for the sex in particular, but I can imagine in some plots, especially coming of age stories, ignoring the sex or budding sexuality would seem odd.  I certainly would not suggest that anyone avoid writing it.

And for my 2 cents I thought that GRRM scene everyone is talking about was beautifully written and not forced at all.


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## Reilith

Russ said:


> I don't read for the sex in particular, but I can imagine in some plots, especially coming of age stories, ignoring the sex or budding sexuality would seem odd.  I certainly would not suggest that anyone avoid writing it



Those were my thoughts exactly. I will just have to take heed how to write it.


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## droiditbook303

I like my fantasy to have compelling and complicated characters, not just interesting plots and settings. In that regard, sex and sexuality are often important aspects and events in people's lives. If it makes sense character-development wise, I think it's important for sex to be explored in a work.

Depending on the rest of the tone of the story depends on how explicit the sex should be. I see a lot of ultra violent books that tiptoe around sex like it's a sleeping beast. For example, I love Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Chronicles. The best world building I've ever read. But they are excessively violent. I'm not squeamish, so this doesn't turn me off, but the juxtaposition between this adult level of violence and action with the prudish hints that the womanizing character, Adolin, (among others) has sex is very odd. Especially considering how important these female "conquests" are to that character's development.

Anyway, that digression might not be helpful, Reilith. For your gay coming of age story, I think the best way to look at if explicit sex is appropriate is to decide if there are avenues for your mc to explore his sexuality without having sex with another male, and what his reaction to sex will look like. I think if you are going for a realistic portrayal, many of us gay people growing up in less than accepting areas, only truly realized we were gay when we had our first sexual experience(s) - whether with the same sex or not.

Hope that helps. Good luck!


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## Reilith

droiditbook303 said:


> Anyway, that digression might not be helpful, Reilith. For your gay coming of age story, I think the best way to look at if explicit sex is appropriate is to decide if there are avenues for your mc to explore his sexuality without having sex with another male, and what his reaction to sex will look like. I think if you are going for a realistic portrayal, many of us gay people growing up in less than accepting areas, only truly realized we were gay when we had our first sexual experience(s) - whether with the same sex or not.
> 
> Hope that helps. Good luck!



It does. As a bisexual person, who was declared as gay for four years prior to discovering my own bisexuality  I know how it works, as my first encounters were with women only. I am writing from the POV of a young gay male (my favourite type of character btw.) so I do think it is relevant to the plot as it will take a chunk of the novel, exploring and explaining his growth - from a tight family who never even considered the possibility and a father who tried to keep him in a bubble protected from things he didn't see fit, to liberation from those constrictions in the less conservative capital and a variety of characters who vary in sexuality. I clearly want to depict his train of thought as he finds out about those things which were so far away from him and seemed so unreal, to discovering his own gayness. So yeah, I believe that the sexual aspect of relationship he is going to have is important to show his progress.


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## SD Stevens

Nimue said:


> Those scenes always made me uncomfortable because she was thirteen or fourteen in them.



Then you wouldn't like historical novels then because they have the same. It was the done thing 'back then'. Which is the main reason for the fantasy world I created. My rules means no under age sex!! 

I have a good bit of sex in mine but it wont all get into the finished book. It goes in to satisfy me. I write everything and then cut out what's not necessary to the story. (A tip someone gave me that I'm not sure I should do but can stop doing it now).


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## Panda

As a reader, I don't care one way or the other if a book has explicit sex scenes, as long as the scenes are well-written. As a writer, I'm way too self-conscious to write a sex scene. (Which is actually kind of sad, when you consider that I'm an amateur writer and I've never shown my writing to another person anyway.)



Clinton Seeber said:


> Sure, just write Fifty Shades of Middle-Earth!



Fifty Shades of Gandalf the Gray.


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## Devor

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Great example. In this case it certainly served a story purpose to actually show the act, Drogo continuing the domination of a submissive Daenerys...the baseline of her character arc and transformation to a powerful leader.





Chesterama said:


> Not to be a prude, but I actually hated this scene and found it offensive. Oh, so she can only transform as a woman through sex? That's what that scene had me thinking, that she wouldn't have otherwise been a great and powerful leader if Drogo hadn't asserted sexual dominance over her.



I think both of you maybe missed the point of those scenes.  It's not about Dani _submitting_ to an abusive Drogo.  It's about her _accepting_ even this aspect of her role as queen.

Yes, that acceptance is a tremendously important part of her development as a character.  It's also an important distinction to make because it's what helps her to rise above her helplessness and the perception that she is a victim.

She is Queen, and she is willing to take ownership of everything that means.


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## Reilith

Panda said:


> Fifty Shades of Gandalf the Gray.



Just search youtube for Fifty Shades of Santa. You'll get the gist of it.


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## Nimue

Panda said:


> As a reader, I don't care one way or the other if a book has explicit sex scenes, as long as the scenes are well-written. As a writer, I'm way too self-conscious to write a sex scene. (Which is actually kind of sad, when you consider that I'm an amateur writer and I've never shown my writing to another person anyway.)
> 
> 
> 
> Fifty Shades of Gandalf the Gray.


Oh god _oh god the images_


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## T.Allen.Smith

Devor said:


> I think both of you maybe missed the point of those scenes.  It's not about Dani submitting to an abusive Drogo.


I never said that's what it was about. 



Devor said:


> It's about her accepting even this aspect of her role as queen.  Yes, that acceptance is a tremendously important part of her development as a character.  It's also an important distinction to make because it's what helps her to rise above her helplessness and the perception that she is a victim.  She is Queen, and she is willing to take ownership of everything that means.


Totally agree.


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## Panda

There are actually two completely unrelated "50 Shades of Santa" videos on Youtube. I'm not sure what that says about the human race.



Nimue said:


> Oh god _oh god the images_



I actually stole that joke from Stephen Colbert, who used it while interviewing Ian McKellen. Who replied that with him, it would be 50 Shades of Gandalf the _Gay_.


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## Tom

Fyle said:


> I guess you don't like a Song of Ice and Fire much? One great scene connecting Daenerys and Carl Drogo was described through sex. It can color a relationship in a unique way. Not that I enjoy or care if there is sex (I am neutral on the matter), just saying, why throw out a tool?
> 
> When it is necessary for plot or character development, or maybe a deeper meaning (someone gets pregnant and you want to show the conception for some reason), there is no reason to cut it just because it is "sex."
> 
> Or, of course if you are writing YA novels (but then you can skip this thread I guess because the reason you don't include sex is obvious)
> 
> If you are an adult yourself and have sex, there is no logical reason it should "turn you off" in a story that strides for realism and immesion. If you are an adult who does not have sex, and strays away from it because sex turns you off in real life, than sure, I understand that. It's just part of life.
> 
> I am not saying have a porn scene or be graphic, but there is no reason you can't have _a few _lines someplace about it if it is written in a classy and relevant manner.
> 
> My completed WIP is 60 chapters, I have 2-3 brief sex scenes I found to be relevant. For the sake of variety, I cannot think of a reason to cut them, nor is there a need to aside from being scared they will turn people off (but the second best selling fantasy series of all time has plenty, so, I'm pretty comfortable with the few short scenes I have).



I'm okay with sex if it's relevant to plot or character development, which is why I am actually okay with the sex in the Game of Thrones series, but not with a lot of the sex in the TV show. In the books, it's almost always relevant, while in the show, I feel a lot of it is gratuitous. 

Yes, I do write mostly YA fiction, but I'm starting to branch out into adult fiction too, and several of my more adult stories have featured sexual content, though I have never written a full-on sex scene. I prefer the subtle route. Most of it is implied through dialogue and action.

Sex turns me off in real life, as I am asexual. Some asexuals are indifferent to the idea of sex, having neither negative nor positive reactions to it, but I just do not like sex.


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## Fyle

Tom Nimenai said:


> Sex turns me off in real life, as I am asexual. Some asexuals are indifferent to the idea of sex, having neither negative nor positive reactions to it, but I just do not like sex.



That is very interesting. Thank you for the honesty.


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## joshwolf

I think that it completely depends on the tone of the work itself and what beats you're trying to hit as your plot unfolds. Would I write about my characters going to the bathroom? If it fit the tone and something important needed to happen during that, you know, business, then yeah, I would. (Fortunately it hasn't happened yet.)

I've only written one sex scene, but the MCs were in a romantic relationship, I was working for a very dreamlike, visceral feel whenever they were together, and it seemed like something that needed to happen onstage near the end of the second act of the novel. The scene was very difficult to write and the whole thing's still a WIP but I'm glad I tried it. While there's plenty of gratuitous sex masquerading as lit, I think our sexuality can sometimes be responsibly and engagingly explored in fantasy lit. Haruki Murakami does a great job.


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## Giya Kusezu

No. I view sex as a sacred, special thing. I neither read nor write about it. Most sex-related things I have run across in books feel like cheap filler material used to hook the reader, and the scarce books that are more respectful about it just made me uncomfortable, anyway.


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## CupofJoe

This is what I think of as a good "sex" scene... Very Small Favor - The Big Sleep (1946)


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## ascanius

IMHO I think way too many sex scenes are too much sex and enough focus on emotional impacts on the character, this is assuming the scene is relevent to the plot.  Sex scenes are frankly boring, I know the mechanics of how it works and if I wanted to read a manual I would read something to further my intelligence.  Sex scenes shouldn't be about sex, the sex should be like the setting, important but not point.  

I think the scene with Dani and Drogo was well done with much more going on than just sex.  To me I always took that scene as the point where she takes crontrol of her life from her brother.

I havn't gotten to the sex scenes in my WIP.  I have them planned out and hopefull I will be able to put my money where my mouth is.


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## bookwyvern2

No. I don't think the story calls for it. Some romance between 2 characters is okay, but no Harlequin romance.


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## Fyle

Giya Kusezu said:


> No. I view sex as a sacred, special thing. I neither read nor write about it. Most sex-related things I have run across in books feel like cheap filler material used to hook the reader, and the scarce books that are more respectful about it just made me uncomfortable, anyway.




Calling sex cheap filler is borderline ridiculous and completely opinionated. It shows a stronger connection between two characters and can be used as a tool to build who they are. If it is kept short and to the point, it is in no way shape or form "filler." I would say it's length is more relevant whether it is explicit or not, we can all agree nobodu wants to read 5-10 pages of explicit sex in fantasy... but kept as a few lines should not interrupt anything if it is plot relevant.

Why is a natural part of life "sacred"? I would like an explanation with as little opinion as possible so we can all understand this point of view.

In the end, it all comes down to how real you want your story to seem, and what realism does is create immersion... which is the goal for all writers across the board of every genre, nothing is more important.


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## X Equestris

Fyle said:


> Calling sex cheap filler is borderline ridiculous and completely opinionated. It shows a stronger connection between two characters and can be used as a tool to build who they are. If it is kept short and to the point, it is in no way shape or form "filler." I would say it's length is more relevant whether it is explicit or not, we can all agree nobodu wants to read 5-10 pages of explicit sex in fantasy... but kept as a few lines should not interrupt anything if it is plot relevant.
> 
> Why is a natural part of life "sacred"? I would like an explanation with as little opinion as possible so we can all understand this point of view.
> 
> In the end, it all comes down to how real you want your story to seem, and what realism does is create immersion... which is the goal for all writers across the board of every genre, nothing is more important.



Let's be honest here: the vast majority of sexual content I have run across in various forms of media IS filler (often poorly done filler), meant to draw in the lowest common denominator.  Rare is the sex scene that is well done and has any meaning in the work.


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## Fyle

X Equestris said:


> Let's be honest here: the vast majority of sexual content I have run across in various forms of media IS filler (often poorly done filler), meant to draw in the lowest common denominator.  Rare is the sex scene that is well done and has any meaning in the work.



The question is not whether it is well done or not. I think we have to assume it is written to a good enough standard to "work."

I am about keeping an open mind and not automatically blocking anything from your writting just because it is "fill in the blank," subject wise (technical writting is a different beast).

I am about keeping everything as an option and not saying "no way" just on the thought of it or your personal beliefs outside writing. How you think about sex, is outside influenced and a lot about personal experience and upbrining. To be honest, the less you are exposed to it, the more mysterious and alien it seems. Its just a normal part of life and should be handled with care because it is hard to make relevant, but it might be....


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## X Equestris

Fyle said:


> The question is not whether it is well done or not. I think we have to assume it is written to a good enough standard to "work."
> 
> I am about keeping an open mind and not automatically blocking anything from your writting just because it is "fill in the blank," subject wise (technical writting is a different beast).
> 
> I am about keeping everything as an option and not saying "no way" just on the thought of it or your personal beliefs outside writing. How you think about sex, is outside influenced and a lot about personal experience and upbrining. To be honest, the less you are exposed to it, the more mysterious and alien it seems. Its just a normal part of life and should be handled with care because it is hard to make relevant, but it might be....



Saying something is good enough to work sort of sidesteps the issue.  If something isn't well done, if it doesn't add to the work, then it shouldn't be there.  Most of the sex scenes I see could be cut out and the work would be the same quality or better.


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## Fyle

X Equestris said:


> Saying something is good enough to work sort of sidesteps the issue.  If something isn't well done, if it doesn't add to the work, then it shouldn't be there.  Most of the sex scenes I see could be cut out and the work would be the same quality or better.



I beg to differ. The issue is about _inclusion or not _and why. Not about how well it is written, I am just trying to agree on a certain standard that the scene is not distasteful due to vulgur language is all. I could have worded it better to be fair to you, sure.


Refer to the yay or nay in the OP's title for the thread for clarity on the subject.


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## Reilith

But if they do add, then why should they not be included? Because of beliefs set in the writers mind which prohibit it for whatever reason, or because sex is something that _should not_ be portayed? Is it dirty or holy or something third? I don't say it must be included by any price, but I am saying that as long as it is relevant to the plot and growth of the characters, why shouldn't it be? Not plain po*n of course, but meaningful sexual interaction between two people.


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## Reilith

Fyle, you ninja.


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## X Equestris

Fyle said:


> I beg to differ. The issue is about _inclusion or not _and why. Not about how well it is written.
> 
> Refer to the yay or nay in the OP's title for the thread.



Whether explicit sex should be included or not depends on the quality of said scene.  If it adds nothing or decreases the quality, then it should not be in.  If it is well written, then it should be in.  Same as any other sort of scene.  Simple.


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## Fyle

X Equestris said:


> Whether explicit sex should be included or not depends on the quality of said scene.



Yes. Which can be relevant, but _slightly_ off track. Quality of the writing does not necessarily have to do with inclusion.

_* Thanks Rei!_ I was actually a half-ninja for 4 years in a comic strip that featured myself as the MC. It ran in New York city as charity for the homeless. I dare not call my self a full ninja...


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## Garren Jacobsen

Fyle you asked





> Why is a natural part of life "sacred"?



I believe I may have an answer for you. Giya, correct me if I am wrong, is likely a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am basing this off of the sacred statements and location. I think it's a safe enough assumption for now. However, if I am wrong I apologize. With that said I am going to try and explain the sacred belief of sex, which is something I share.

Sex according to the LDS faith is a complicated thing. It is meant to be between a married couple. _See_ The Family: A Proclamation to the World. It is meant for procreation. The Family: A Proclamation to the World. And to bring a couple together. _See_ Genesis 2:24. Further, the power of procreation is a part of God's plan for all of humanity.

This plan for humanity is called the plan of salvation and it is the only means by which us, as God's children, can return to him. Part of this plan is in attaining a body. For without a body we would become like the Devil himself. The Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 9:8. God has decided to give people the power, and the duty, of procreation. Genesis 9:1. He has given to the human race the power to create a sentient race capable of becoming like God. This is one reason why sex is sacred.

Another reason is that sex represents, or ideally should represent, a perfect unity of lives, hopes, dreams, and everything that the couple engaging in the act is. The Ensign (a Mormon religious periodical) Strengthening the Family: The Sacred Powers of Procreation, June 2005. Sex is a physical symbol of that union. It is a perversion of this union to participate in the act and to lack the state of mind necessary to fully consummate the union. As such, we are perverting a gift of God.

Last, sex for sex's sake is trivialization of the soul. According to Mormon doctrine a soul is the combination of body and spirit. _See_ D&C 88:15. This gift of a soul is something created by the act of sex. To have sex willy nilly is a trivialization of the process of creation and thus a trivialization of the soul, which is the second greatest gift God has given next to the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

For these reasons Mormon's consider sex to be sacred. However this does not answer the underlying question of why are sacred things not often shown. This goes to Jesus' admonition to "not cast your pearls before swine." Matthew 7:6. Sex is sacred and should not be perverted. By showing it explicitly it diminishes that sacredness. Eventually enough of it will mar the act and make it something base, rather than something sacred. In order to avoid that we do not depict sex. We may discuss it but do not get into the specifics of it.

Sorry for the epistle. Here is the TL;DR version. Sex is sacred because it is part of creating the soul. The soul is necessary to return to God and enter heaven. As such, the act of sex is something sacred. Mormons do not generally depict sacred things explicitly. They are discussed but rarely shown in large part to keep the sacredness of the activity.

As an endnote, I would like to add this is my interpretation of my religion's doctrine. This is _not_ official Mormon doctrine. If there are discrepancies with what is in scripture that is by my own doing. Anyways I hope this helps. Again, Giya if you are not Mormon and I missed my guess I apologize. Fyle, does this answer your question?


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## Fyle

Brian Scott Allen said:


> Fyle you asked
> 
> I believe I may have an answer for you. Giya, correct me if I am wrong, is likely a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am basing this off of the sacred statements and location. I think it's a safe enough assumption for now. However, if I am wrong I apologize. With that said I am going to try and explain the sacred belief of sex, which is something I share.



I understand this very well, but usually when religion comes up the thread gets closed. Internet forums are where these ideas should be discussed and shot down when they make little sense. Instead, folk like me are labeled "bad" or "wrong" for bringing the topic up... too bad the internet is becoming politically controlled like television. But here goes since you said it first lol.

_Religious beliefs are not a logical reason to not include sex in a story._ That is a hard to swallow pill that most people are not ready to talk about - especially not ready to talk about in a civilized manner. Religious belief is also why violence is so widely accepted and not shunned on in fantasy (especially in the States) when something like sex is. I cannot say sex is "harmless" due to the possible spread of STDs, but it doesn't take a biologist to tell you sex is A LOT less harmful than violence.

So, without getting into religious beliefs, can holding sex sacred be explained ?

Ideas should have no limits - especially with something like writing where there are little to no budget restrictions in world creation and cast of characters!


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## T.Allen.Smith

Fyle said:


> ...usually when religion comes up the thread gets closed.


Religion is an acceptable topic for Mythic Scribes. However, the conversation is required to remain respectful of other's beliefs, tactful, and free of judgment or attack.

Breaking that understanding is what causes threads to close.


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## X Equestris

Fyle said:


> I understand this very well, but usually when religion comes up the thread gets closed. Internet forums are where these ideas should be discussed and shot down when they make little sense. Instead, folk like me are labeled "bad" or "wrong" for bringing the topic up... too bad the internet is becoming politically controlled like television. But here goes since you said it first lol.
> 
> _Religious beliefs are not a logical reason to not include sex in a story._ That is a hard to swallow pill that most people are not ready to talk about - especially not ready to talk about in a civilized manner. Religious belief is also why violence is so widely accepted and not shunned on in fantasy (especially in the States) when something like sex is. I cannot say sex is "harmless" due to the possible spread of STDs, but it doesn't take a biologist to tell you sex is A LOT less harmful than violence.
> 
> So, without getting into religious beliefs, can holding sex sacred be explained ?
> 
> Ideas should have no limits - especially with something like writing where there are little to no budget restrictions in world creation and cast of characters!



Religious beliefs are a perfectly valid reason to choose not to include a sex scene.  It is indeed perfectly logical not to include something that conflicts with your personal beliefs.  If you cannot see that, that is your own fault, but don't claim someone doesn't have a logical reason when they do.


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## T.Allen.Smith

X Equestris said:


> Religious beliefs are a perfectly valid reason to choose not to include a sex scene.  It is indeed perfectly logical not to include something that conflicts with your personal beliefs.  If you cannot see that, that is your own fault, but don't claim someone doesn't have a logical reason when they do.



I have to agree. That's the author's prerogative and discretion. 

The way I see it, it comes down to simple taste... likes and dislikes.

Why do I write the type of stories I do? Because they're what I'd want to read. There are others just like me out there that would enjoy the same. That is true for any choice we make in our writing.

Though sex in stories doesn't bother me in the least, and I consider it a natural part of life, I definitely think there is a market for stories that treat sex differently.


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## Garren Jacobsen

> So, without getting into religious beliefs, can holding sex sacred be explained ?



In short, no. Sacredness is generally tied to religious belief. I think it would be a task far beyond my capabilities to explain why sex is sacred without getting into my personal beliefs.

However, I would like to make a comparison to violence. Murder is a terrible sin according to most religious beliefs and interpretations thereof. Yet violence is generally acceptable. But, violence is not itself murder. Murder is the intentional killing of another with malice aforethought. (This may not be the religious definition but I think it's close enough) Killing another does not mean the killer did so with malice aforethought or intentionally. As such, so far as I can tell, glorifying murder is religiously problematic. But having violence in a story is not problematic if the murderers are not glorified and the defenders do not support violence as the only solution, just the last one.

Similarly, sex is not itself bad. Wanton sex is. Glorifying wanton sex is problematic. Wanton sex and its glorification is problematic as explained above. So, to avoid that I, and others, err on the side of caution and simply do not have explicit sex.


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## Fyle

X Equestris said:


> Religious beliefs are a perfectly valid reason to choose not to include a sex scene.  It is indeed perfectly logical not to include something that conflicts with your personal beliefs.  If you cannot see that, that is your own fault, but don't claim someone doesn't have a logical reason when they do.



Please explain why excluding a sex scene due to religious beliefs is logical rather than telling me what you think.

I think to create realism, show stronger relationships between characters, possibly show proof of conception or simply add a little spice and variety to the writing sex should be considered. 

Why should it not be considered ? Make me see your point of view, don't tell me its "my fault" if I cannot. That's what writing is about, my friend.

_Thank you Allen Smith for clearing that up. I will of course stay respectful!_


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## BronzeOracle

X Equestris said:


> Whether explicit sex should be included or not depends on the quality of said scene.  If it adds nothing or decreases the quality, then it should not be in.  If it is well written, then it should be in.  Same as any other sort of scene.  Simple.



I think it depends on the quality of the scene, its need/power within the story and also the intended audience.  A lot of people don't like reading explicit sex but a lot of people do too.  Almost all epic fantasy I have read has had a 'closed door' approach to sex, which I found enough for me even though I consider myself a fairly sexual person.  There are some notable exceptions but even they don't go into the detail of today's erotic fiction.  I have to confess I haven't read a lot of recent fantasy (say last 5-10 years) so things could be changing and major successes like ASOFAI and the GOT TV series could well influence the genre. 

I am undecided as to including explicit sex in my novel as I am still writing it, but at this stage I don't think so.  I'm comfortable that closed door references to sex are enough and there is plenty of room for strong character relationships without being explicit.  Also I wouldn't want to alienate readers, as I think there are more who would be turned off by it then those who would read it more because it was there - then again I could be wrong on this.

I think there have been some valuable mentions in this thread about the inclusion of violence.  Sex and violence both pose issues for society and our own consciousness I think.  I do agree that violence is more acceptable by the mainstream than sex yet it wreaks incredible trauma.  This is something I will need to put more thought into, as my novel does have several violent scenes and I am wondering how shocking to make them.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Fyle said:


> Please explain why excluding a sex scene due to religious beliefs is logical rather than telling me what you think.


Don't take this the wrong way, but I have a hard time understanding why that needs explained. The logic seems readily apparent to me.

I think that's why there's a disconnect here. The argument seems crystal clear in its logic to the others... The religious beliefs of the author are intrinsic in the work they produce. That's a choice of style, nothing more.


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## X Equestris

Fyle said:


> Please explain why excluding a sex scene due to religious beliefs is logical rather than telling me what you think.
> 
> I think to create realism, show stronger relationships between characters, possibly show proof of conception or simply add a little spice and variety to the writing sex should be considered.
> 
> Why should it not be considered ? Make me see your point of view, don't tell me its "my fault" if I cannot. That's what writing is about, my friend.
> 
> _Thank you Allen Smith for clearing that up. I will of course stay respectful!_



Asking a religious person to portray sex in a willy-nilly manner is like asking Ayn Rand to portray Collectivism in a positive light, if that analogy makes it clearer.  It is an idea that opposes who and what you are.


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## Fyle

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I have to agree. That's the author's prerogative and discretion.
> 
> The way I see it, it comes down to simple taste... likes and dislikes.




I seek logical answers. 

I don't like grapefruit, why? I can leave it at that but... 

I don't like the sour acidic taste, the texture of the skin or the juicyness. We are here as writers for reasons and keep discussions strong, the discussion is the heart of a forum and needs sitmulation. 

You don't like sex in novels? Please tell me why, not "_just because_". Because of religious beliefs is fine, if you can explain in detail. Especailly on a forum about writing! I expect more that a few lines _telling_ me why I am wrong rather than _showing_ me why I am wrong


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## Chessie

Fyle, maybe I can answer that for you (and hopefully this isn't too off topic). I don't know what X Equestris's spiritual beliefs are, but as a Christian, I understand where he's (or she) is coming from. Writing about sex is a personal preference but when you also add in spiritual beliefs there is a higher power being honored in your work. Writing about sex doesn't neccessarily honor that higher power. I don't want to get too deep into religion/spirituality here so feel free to engage in a private discussion with me about this if you like and I can explain it in further detail without derailing the thread.

There are several reasons why I personally don't write explicit sex scenes but my work isn't void of sexuality either. Its typically an important part of character development for me. But I also think sex and sexuality are slightly separate things.


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## Fyle

Chesterama said:


> Fyle, maybe I can answer that for you (and hopefully this isn't too off topic). I don't know what X Equestris's spiritual beliefs are, but as a Christian, I understand where he's (or she) is coming from. Writing about sex is a personal preference but when you also add in spiritual beliefs there is a higher power being honored in your work. Writing about sex doesn't neccessarily honor that higher power. I don't want to get too deep into religion/spirituality here so feel free to engage in a private discussion with me about this if you like and I can explain it in further detail without derailing the thread.
> 
> There are several reasons why I personally don't write explicit sex scenes but my work isn't void of sexuality either. Its typically an important part of character development for me. But I also think sex and sexuality are slightly separate things.



I understand it is a personal preference. Technically, everything is a personal preference. 

I am asking for an explanation of the personal preference that I could perhaps relate to. A point of view everyone can relate to. If your point of view can only be made clear to a select group of individuals who share the same belief, than it has a shaky foundation. 

Writing and expressing yourself is about making other understand your point of view. If you have a source censoring your point of view, at least explain the reasons to some degree of detail. If you can't, you may as well just answer with the OP's requested "_yay or nay_." So... make me understand where you are coming from... that's the job of a writer.


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## Feo Takahari

To get a bit personal, I also view sex as sacred to some degree, and that's a big part of why I write about sex. I read so many stories that portray sex as this dark, possessive thing where one person dominates and controls another, and I sometimes find stories where sex is part of a mutual and equal bond, and I feel like I want to see and create more representation of the latter. I think there's a lot of value in trying to convey what feels beautiful and incredible to you.


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## Chessie

Fyle said:


> I am asking for an explanation of the personal preference that I could perhaps relate to. A point of view everyone can relate to.


Hm. I'm not sure if this is possible. Not everyone can agree on everything, and not everyone can relate to everything. Especially when it comes to spirituality/religion which is a soul-centered experience and so unless you have a specific faith in your life then you're probably not going to understand where another person of faith/or lack thereof is coming from (and I even mean this for people of faith that differ in what they worship). 

I'll give it a shot though. The reasons why I don't write sex: its freaking hard to write about. I have written sex scenes before and they just--I don't like writing them because it never comes out with a flow for me (pun intended). I don't like to alienate readers by having graphic sex scenes in my stories. Some people don't mind reading them, some people do. Why alienate readers who could become potential fans when I can have an equally strong story and character development without graphic sex? I like to respect the minds of others who may have an issue with this so I simply just don't do it. 

It has nothing to do with a source censoring me. No one is censoring me. I am able to express myself just fine without needing to be exceedingly graphic with language, violence, or sex in my stories. I've been doing this long enough that I can maneuver language to get my point across. It is my artistic taste more than anything. I think about sweeping epics like "Gone With The Wind" or "Jayne Eyre" or "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" that have sexuality but little sex scenes. _That's_ the artistic style I prefer (not that my narrative is anywhere near as good as those novels and sorry to not use fantasy novel examples). 

Where I'm coming from if  that makes sense. 

EDIT: I wanted to add that I do think sex is important in stories. We're writing about real people and real people have sex. I don't think the characters in my WIP would have the relationship they do without being physical. That aspect of their relationship is mentioned in the story several times...but its not detailed. Its there because its part of what keeps the protagonist stuck to the antagonist for lack of a better way to describe it. The story wouldn't really be the same without it.


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## Fyle

Chesterama said:


> I'll give it a shot though. The reasons why I don't write sex: its freaking hard to write about. I have written sex scenes before and they just--I don't like writing them because it never comes out with a flow for me (pun intended). I don't like to alienate readers by having graphic sex scenes in my stories. Some people don't mind reading them, some people do. Why alienate readers who could become potential fans when I can have an equally strong story and character development without graphic sex? I like to respect the minds of others who may have an issue with this so I simply just don't do it.
> 
> It has nothing to do with a source censoring me. No one is censoring me. I am able to express myself just fine without needing to be exceedingly graphic with language, violence, or sex in my stories. I've been doing this long enough that I can maneuver language to get my point across. It is my artistic taste more than anything.* I think about sweeping epics like "Gone With The Wind" or "Jayne Eyre" or "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" that have sexuality but little sex scenes.* _That's_ the artistic style I prefer (not that my narrative is anywhere near as good as those novels and sorry to not use fantasy novel examples).
> 
> Where I'm coming from if  that makes sense.



That makes a big difference and has nothing to do with religious beliefs. The point you make about Gone with the Wind is "good."
Altough with movies, by facial expression and body language it is easier to hint at it than with writing (I don't know if the other two are books or movies... so I am at a loss to say in those cases, but I will trust you that they imply sex without showing it if they are books). 

The point I am trying to make indirectly (and this is kind of a different thread) but... I think religious beliefs have turned people off to sex more than "sex" has turned people off to sex. It is hard for me to fathom, in a world without religion, people would start calling sex offensive or be such a turn off. 

The reason is that nobody (or I think very few of us who read this genre) is put off by "violence", which is worse than sex by any stretch of the imagination, is because, religious people (of major faiths) accept violence in there stories. As the Bible is one of the most violent books ever written. Even Jesus says you can beat a slave so long as their eyes don't fall out of their socket.

But! Oh no! A sex scene _offends_ me... hmmm... this seems unnatural  or should I say learned logic. As an organism that reproduces through sex, you should not be turned off or offended by a short sex scene (I am talking about short inserts, not a high volume of sex, that gets disruptive to the plot)

Stop and think of the word "offend" for a moment. How can a scene about what we must do to survive "offend" anyone in the same way as say being insulted directly by someone, being stolen from etc. 

But to your credit, a much better answer that came from you, and nowhere else.


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## Philip Overby

I'll add to what Chesterama said. I find sex difficult to write...in fantasy. I've written it in other stories before, but my fantasy is typically violent, some may consider hyper-violent, so that's the path I've chosen. It's also considered somewhat silly. In a story with a crazed pixie and bloody, ghostly unicorn, I don't see there being a spot for me to put sex in there. On the other hand, if I'm writing non-fantasy work, sex scenes come a lot easier for me. Even then I choose not to write them explicitly. But in some of my more serious work I don't always choose to show violence explicitly either. Sometimes what you don't see in fiction can make it even more powerful.

For example, a scene depicting a husband and wife consummating their marriage after waiting for years might be considered by some a sweet moment. Showing it explicitly may change the tone. 

I remember when learning about Oedipus and he finds out what he did (I'll assume most everyone knows the story), he stabs his eyes with golden needles or something. It's an extremely violent act, but it's not shown. We only see Oedipus later when he's already blind. I remember thinking that was a powerful scene for me.

So I guess when I approach sex, I often won't write "this happened, then this happened, then this happened." I like to write scenes that show what happened before or after. That's a personal choice that has little to do with any outside influences.


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## Fyle

Ya, explicit sex and just sex are different. 

My argument is more about 'sex'

There is never a time to got very graphic logically. As a reference point, I would say not further than Game of Throned goes - the book, not the show. 

The way he describes Dany and Carl Drogos sex isnt exactly explicit... but detailed enough for people to complain. He really touched on a beautiful moment with it that stuck. Yes, it was the actual act, but it was a masterful metaphor that elevated it beyond the level of being sex.


When something is written so well, does the content really matter？


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## BronzeOracle

I agree with you Fyle on society's taste for violence (particularly in Hollywood films) versus aversion to sex (in European movies it seems the opposite, or perhaps its just their version of CGI to draw audiences) - but I don't think religion can be blamed for it all.  There is violence in all societies - tribal societies can be very brutal too, its not just larger states - and the watching of violence for pleasure I think goes beyond religious influence.  

Was the Colosseum games, one of the earliest documented blood sports, really influenced by Christianity or Judaism??  Were the public executions and tortures in large states that had religion really due to religion or instead a ruling class that wanted their subjects to see justice done, spread fear at insubordination against their power, and perhaps give some relief/diversion from the brutality of their own lives and so encourage social stability and the status quo.  My guess is its the ruling elites, not religious doctrine.


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## CupofJoe

BronzeOracle said:


> Was the Colosseum games, one of the earliest documented blood sports, really influenced by Christianity or Judaism??


Actually I have read an argument that the rise of Christianity did change the games in Rome. 
It was cheaper to kill Christians than hire professional performers [Gladiators] for a Games. 
But unlike criminal that were also executed at the games, the Christians refused to fight and would often stand still and/or pray as the animals attacked them... 
It wasn't enough of a show... 
So more elaborate methods of killing/execution were devised, making the games more expensive and eventually less of a spectacle as the set pieces took time to arrange.
So there was a swing back to the more traditional gladiatorial style events...
I guess this could be reversed to say that the acts of the games was to solidify the "underdog" persecuted status of early Christianity that didn't hinder and may have helped its uptake by slaves and lower classes with a promise of a better after-life despite [or because] of the trials of their current life. But I am no theological historian...


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## Mythopoet

Fyle said:


> The reason is that nobody (or I think very few of us who read this genre) is put off by "violence", which is worse than sex by any stretch of the imagination, is because, religious people (of major faiths) accept violence in there stories. As the Bible is one of the most violent books ever written. Even Jesus says you can beat a slave so long as their eyes don't fall out of their socket.



I'm sorry, I'm going to have to object to this. Jesus never said any such thing. And indeed, Christianity is strongly opposed to both slavery and violence. Violence is not more accepted, it is less accepted than sex, because all violence is wrong to at least some degree. But sex is a good thing, in its proper place. The real difference between the two is that sex is intimate and personal while violence is not. 

Here's a very good article by Shamus Young talking about this subject in the context of movies and video games: Why is a Bare Breast More Offensive Than a Severed Arm? | Experienced Points | The Escapist 

While books are not as communal as the media he talks about, books are still meant to be experienced by wide audiences and talked about among friends. I think the principles he talks about hold true for books. People generally have the same kinds of responses to violence, which makes it much easier to share the experience with others, but responses (both mental and physical and emotional) to sex are highly varied. That's why people argue more about portrayals of sex than about violence. 

From a practical standpoint, as soon as a writer includes an actual sex scene (not just sex as part of the plot or development, but actually showing it) you drastically reduce your potential audience. There are plenty of authors who find this worthwhile because showing the sex is important to the kind of story they are trying to tell (this is most valid in the erotica genre), but from my point of view, even if I wasn't the sort of person who doesn't really like spying on character's sex acts (which I don't) it wouldn't be worth it. Not when you can widen your audience so much with a simple fade to black. 

Furthermore, I'm not sure I buy the argument that showing sex in detail is necessary to any story other than stories that are specifically written to arouse readers (erotica, romance that borders on erotica). As soon as anyone starts saying something like "it was necessary to write it like this" my alarm bells go off. I just don't think any story really has to be told any specific way. The whole point of being a storyteller is making choices about how to tell our stories. Sex scenes are not necessary. They are a choice.


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## Fyle

He sure does approve of slavery. Well, according to the Bible. Which is were his teachings are learned from. I could not find the line about the eyes, but i trust the source. Will work on that. Approving of slavery is bad enough anyway, worst than explicit sex for sure.

You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.
*
** *Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.* Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.* (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
*
* **Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.* If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. *You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.* Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. *(1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
*
*** In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.
*
*** The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.* "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly.* Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given."* (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)


----------



## Mythopoet

Fyle said:


> He sure does approve of slavery. Well, according to the Bible. Which is were his teachings are learned from. I could not find the line about the eyes, but i trust the source. Will work on that. Approving of slavery is bad enough anyway, worst than explicit sex for sure.
> 
> You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.
> *
> ** *Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.* Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.* (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
> *
> * **Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.* If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. *You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.* Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. *(1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
> *
> *** In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.
> *
> *** The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.* "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly.* Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given."* (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)



What exactly is the source about the eyes? A google search didn't bring anything up about that specific detail for me. 

As for the verses you've quoted, only one of them is Jesus' words and it's a _parable_. It's not meant to be taken literally. It's essentially illustrating a universal truth with a story that the audience will be able to understand. Jesus is actually talking about the punishment for willing, knowledgeable sin being death. He used the example of a master punishing a slave because it's something people living in that time and place can understand. It is NOT condoning slavery. (And if you can't understand that you shouldn't be a writer.)

The other two references are also not condoning slavery. But these books were written in a world where slavery existed and there wasn't a thing the early Christians could do about it. These verses are from books written to specific communities of believers. They are giving practical instruction. Basically, if you are a slave, you should live your life virtuously. Just because slavery is wrong doesn't mean you should stop acting virtuously toward your master because you are not responsible for his sins, only your own. The Church has never taught that slavery is ok.

But all this is besides the point and this isn't the place for a religious debate. I only argue because of your disrespect for my beliefs.


----------



## ascanius

Fyle said:


> The point I am trying to make indirectly (and this is kind of a different thread) but... I think religious beliefs have turned people off to sex more than "sex" has turned people off to sex. It is hard for me to fathom, in a world without religion, people would start calling sex offensive or be such a turn off.



First off I find it presumptious on your part to blame people being 'offended about sex,' solely on religion.  It completely ignores different cultures, heredity, socioeconomic status, survival etc.  Two, the three major religions don't belive sex is bad or wrong (not sure about islam to be honest) the way you seem to believe, it's the contex that is viewed as immoral not sex itself.  Also these ideas also predate the three major religions.  For instance sex outside of wedlock is viewed as wrong not because of the sex but because the possability of a child who is without a father and all the social and economic implications that follow, let's not forgoet the time period and the beliefs those people held.  Think of heredity and how wonton sex can cause all sorts of problems.  If a king has a mistress and that mistress has a child does that child have a claim on the throne? 



Fyle said:


> The reason is that nobody (or I think very few of us who read this genre) is put off by "violence", which is worse than sex by any stretch of the imagination, is because, religious people (of major faiths) accept violence in there stories. As the Bible is one of the most violent books ever written. Even Jesus says you can beat a slave so long as their eyes don't fall out of their socket.



Yeah... um I've never heard that ever, nor does google apparently. However that i besides the point, slavery is viewed as wrong by almost all religions now. besides what does this have to with sex, not much.  As to violence it's the context of the violence that is wrong, beating someone for no reason wrong, beating someone to save a life good.  Look at a book called 120 days of sodom, it's all levels of complete f'd up sadistic terrifying crap.  evrything in that book is bad, sex and violence all because of the context (don't actually read it, it's really disturbing).  Context is everything, it's what make violence in books acceptable and in some cases the villian irrideamable.

Let me explain.  The books we read are always about overcoming some precieved threat, in some cases  violence is used, even if missguided and mistaken.  However it is viewed as acceptable because the reasons behind the violence are viewed as justifiable.  Like killing a person to survive, it starts to get grey when both parties have equally justifiable reasons.  However on the opposite side of the spectrum is the completely depraved crap in the 120 days of sodom, there is nothing redeming or justifiable about it.  It's also why it's so so offensive and....  I don't really have the words to discribe my dislike of that book, but it's not somethig you read for enjoyment unless you have serious problems.



Fyle said:


> But! Oh no! A sex scene _offends_ me... hmmm... this seems unnatural  or should I say learned logic. As an organism that reproduces through sex, you should not be turned off or offended by a short sex scene (I am talking about short inserts, not a high volume of sex, that gets disruptive to the plot)



I have a question, do you want to see your parents going at it in the bedroom, or your best friends, or some random strangers.  It's not that you view sex as wrong, or anything like that, it's just not something you have an intrest in watching.  The same can be said about sex scenes.  It's a personal prefrence some people are ok with it while others are not.  Not everyone likes chocolate, you cannot expect people to change their mind simply because you think it's illogical to not like it.

edit:  I'm forgetting english so sorry about my crap spelling and grammar.  Sometimes being bilingual isn't so easy.


----------



## Garren Jacobsen

Fyle I feel like we may be talking about two different things here. When you say depicting sex does that mean explicitly, like in GoT, or implicitly? Or doe you mean depicting sexuality? Which again we come to the question of how much do we depict.

The other question is what do you mean by "logic"? Because utilizing the logic of the believers not depicting explicit sex is perfectly logical. For reasons explained in my above post. But, if by logic you mean a logic that conforms to your world view it is impossible for any of us to do so.


----------



## X Equestris

Fyle said:


> He sure does approve of slavery. Well, according to the Bible. Which is were his teachings are learned from. I could not find the line about the eyes, but i trust the source. Will work on that. Approving of slavery is bad enough anyway, worst than explicit sex for sure.
> 
> You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.
> *
> ** *Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.* Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.* (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
> *
> * **Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.* If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. *You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.* Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. *(1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
> *
> *** In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.
> *
> *** The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.* "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly.* Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given."* (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)



The Bible takes slavery for granted as a social institution.  Because it was a fact of life in the ancient world, rules of conduct are provided.  You also, conveniently, left out the verses about how masters are supposed to treat their slaves.  All of this of course, leaves aside the fact that Christianity was one of the driving forces, alongside Stoicism, that eventually ended slavery in the empire.


----------



## Devor

Fyle said:


> I could not find the line about the eyes, but i trust the source. Will work on that.



The source would be the Talmud, which is not a Christian book.  Beyond that, out of respect for the Jewish faith, I'll refrain from comment.

As for the Bible's references to slavery, they lived in a time where slavery was common, so of course there are references to how slaves and masters should behave morally.  It advises slaves to obey, but also to take up any offer of freedom.  And it advises slave masters to remember that God is their master in heaven whenever they deal with their slaves.  But the thrust of the teaching is this:



			
				1 Corinthians 12:13 said:
			
		

> For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.



The Bible puts out a call for unity between slaves and masters.  That's far from the wholesale support of slavery you make it out to be.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

Let's bear in mind that picking sentences out of the bible isn't going to change the fact that some people have different views on writing sex into their own stories, and religious beliefs may influence an author's decision.

I think we can all agree that personal beliefs, religious or otherwise, influence what you write.

I think we can also agree that these bible quotes, whether taken out of context or not, are irrelevant to the topic. Rather, they are an attack on religious beliefs intended to put the religious people in this debate on the defensive.

Going forward, please save the attack tactics of debate for politicians, and please stick to the topic of yaying and/or naying explicit fantasy sex.


----------



## Devor

Fyle said:


> _Religious beliefs are not a logical reason to not include sex in a story._ That is a hard to swallow pill that most people are not ready to talk about - especially not ready to talk about in a civilized manner.



Saying it is illogical does not make it so.




> Religious belief is also why violence is so widely accepted and not shunned on in fantasy (especially in the States) when something like sex is. I cannot say sex is "harmless" due to the possible spread of STDs, but it doesn't take a biologist to tell you sex is A LOT less harmful than violence.



In the course of my day to day activities, I find very few temptations to rip somebody's heart out and chew it raw.  How often am I tempted to commit adultery?  That depends on what you mean by temptation, but I appreciate as few shoves in that direction as possible.

Sex is pushed aside because in our society it tempts most regular people.  Violence doesn't tempt most people in anywhere near the same way.




> So, without getting into religious beliefs, can holding sex sacred be explained ?



Absolutely.  It's an occassion of two people expressing a near-total physical and often deeply emotional vulnerability towards one another.  If somebody intrudes on that act, aren't they intruding on somebody's vulnerabilities?

How much that should play out for an author or a reader is a separate question.  But yes, sex is sacred, in that it is rightfully set apart for the good of those involved.




> Ideas should have no limits - especially with something like writing where there are little to no budget restrictions in world creation and cast of characters!



Ideas have limits.  What is an audience if not a limit?  Some ideas are unappealing to some people.  Get over it.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

I didn't lock the thread (and hope not to) because I like the topic. I wanna play too, so here's my two cents:

I steer clear of writing sex mostly because I like to focus on the adventure. How characters relate while out battling demons or whatever... that's all good. And, yeah, these relationships can (and maybe should, in the opinions of some) lead to sex.

But questions I ask:
* if I'm writing about a monster hunt, does sex fit my story?
* should my character have a soul mate, or does she have little flings here and there?
* does the sex scene make my character look human, desirable, or cheap?
* does the scene come off as character-defining or gratuitous?
* she's a lesbian and I'm a guy... so if I throw women on top of each other, does that pull readers out of the story and have them start questioning ME? 
* by NOT having a sex scene because my lesbian Huntress is pining for a friend of hers who loves her like a sister, but isn't a lesbian so the love won't ever be what the Huntress wants... well, does that make my character look like an unbelievable sap?
* can I give the Huntress some flirting and romance, and leave the reader wondering exactly what happened during the part of the night not narrated? Is that a fun way to write, or am I cheating the reader?

All this goes through my head when contemplating a sex scene.


And I haven't even gone into any religious reason to hold back, or how being a father of daughters holds me back.

I do enjoy GRRM's work, and am not opposed to reading something that I may be iffy about writing.


----------



## AnxietyDragon

as long as it is well written and relevant to the story i'm all for it!


----------



## droiditbook303

It really does friend on what the story is and who the characters are. In fantasy writing, I like to read more about the world building and how events change the world and the characters. Sex can be an important aspect to that. If I'm reading a primarily adventure story where the characters go out to seek a hidden treasure or hunt a legendary monster, it may not fit to have sexual interactions. I certainly won't say all (or even most) stories should have sex, but I think automatically excluding sex from all stories is limiting.

Moral of the post: keep an open mind when writing (but know what works for the tone)


----------



## Tom

Fyle said:


> He sure does approve of slavery. Well, according to the Bible. Which is were his teachings are learned from. I could not find the line about the eyes, but i trust the source. Will work on that. Approving of slavery is bad enough anyway, worst than explicit sex for sure.
> 
> You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.
> *
> ** *Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.* Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.* (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
> *
> * **Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.* If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. *You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.* Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. *(1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
> *
> *** In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.
> *
> *** The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.* "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly.* Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given."* (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)



Fyle, please refrain from attacking other religions. You are straying into offensive territory here, especially for Christians. Religion is not exactly a rage-button trigger for me, but I _cannot stand _Christianity being vilified with no consideration of context. 

Okay, so, I can't say that the Bible was all right on the issue of slavery, but you have to understand the context there. Slavery was widespread throughout the ancient world, and the way the Bible dealt with such status quo issues was to try to change the system from the inside out. Ideal strategy? No. But it did work in the ancient world, where a sudden outcry for massive social change was often met with hatred and violence. (Just think of the thousands of Christians martyred by the Romans.) 

Masters were to treat their slaves as brothers; slaves were to respect their masters. Plus, you appear to be cherry-picking--lifting only the quotes that will support your point. Paul and many other New Testament writers expressed displeasure at the fact that slavery existed, but encouraged Christian slaveholders to treat their slaves well and slaves to respect and obey their masters. The point of this was to change the system from the inside out, so that eventually it could be done away with. 

I noticed that you also seem to have forgotten to mention the story of the slave Onesimus, owned by Philemon, a Christian and a member of the Church of Colosse. Onesimus ran away and eventually came to Rome, where he met Paul and was converted to Christianity. Paul reluctantly sent Onesimus back to Philemon, but sent with him the letter that we now know as the Book of Philemon to persuade Philemon to accept Onesimus as a Christian brother and a freeman. 

In short, please restrain yourself, and know that I will not tolerate an attack on my--and many other people's--religion.

Thanks.


----------



## Reilith

Can we just refrain from the religion talk now, since we long ago left the point of it connected to sex - which is the topic of this thread. As the OP I am kindly asking, no matter what I think about religion. It is exhausting. There are writing things that can be mentioned instead in relation to the thread.


----------



## Mythopoet

I'm going to repost something I said earlier that is relevant to writing and publishing but got lost amidst the hubub:

From a practical standpoint, as soon as a writer includes an actual sex scene (not just sex as part of the plot or development, but actually showing it) you drastically reduce your potential audience. There are plenty of authors who find this worthwhile because showing the sex is important to the kind of story they are trying to tell (this is most valid in the erotica genre), but from my point of view, even if I wasn't the sort of person who doesn't really like spying on character's sex acts (which I don't) it wouldn't be worth it. Not when you can widen your audience so much with a simple fade to black.


----------



## Reilith

Mythopoet said:


> I'm going to repost something I said earlier that is relevant to writing and publishing but got lost amidst the hubub:
> 
> From a practical standpoint, as soon as a writer includes an actual sex scene (not just sex as part of the plot or development, but actually showing it) you drastically reduce your potential audience. There are plenty of authors who find this worthwhile because showing the sex is important to the kind of story they are trying to tell (this is most valid in the erotica genre), but from my point of view, even if I wasn't the sort of person who doesn't really like spying on character's sex acts (which I don't) it wouldn't be worth it. Not when you can widen your audience so much with a simple fade to black.



I appreciate your point of view, and I believe it is true for most of people, but I know I've read more than a few works that had tasteful portrayal of sex, without really showing much, instead of focusing on the feelings or vague explanations of what is going on and it was completely fit to the occasion.

I am probably of the opposite category from you as I believe that if done well it will enhance the story, even though from the publicity point of view it may lower the reading ratings.


----------



## droiditbook303

Mythopoet said:


> I'm going to repost something I said earlier that is relevant to writing and publishing but got lost amidst the hubub:
> 
> From a practical standpoint, as soon as a writer includes an actual sex scene (not just sex as part of the plot or development, but actually showing it) you drastically reduce your potential audience. There are plenty of authors who find this worthwhile because showing the sex is important to the kind of story they are trying to tell (this is most valid in the erotica genre), but from my point of view, even if I wasn't the sort of person who doesn't really like spying on character's sex acts (which I don't) it wouldn't be worth it. Not when you can widen your audience so much with a simple fade to black.


That is a really good point from the practical standpoint. You would certainly turn off young people along with many of the folks on this board with an aversion to explicit sex. 

That said, do you want to constrain your art to the lowest common denominator?

To digress, and I know I've touched on this before, but I find it insane that we (generally speaking, of course) love our explicit violence, but get embarrassingly uncomfortable when it comes to even hints of sex or sensuality. For example, I saw the latest Hobbit film in theater and there were outbursts of laughter and whoops whenever a character was beheaded. Yet, can you show even non-exclusive nudity in a PG-13 film? It is still symptom of our (USA) sex negative (and violence worshipping) culture that drives me bananas.

Sorry for the rant, but I think those who say sex can't or shouldn't be a useful story telling tool are being a little narrow. Again, depending on the type of story.


----------



## X Equestris

droiditbook303 said:


> That is a really good point from the practical standpoint. You would certainly turn off young people along with many of the folks on this board with an aversion to explicit sex.
> 
> That said, do you want to constrain your art to the lowest common denominator?
> 
> To digress, and I know I've touched on this before, but I find it insane that we (generally speaking, of course) love our explicit violence, but get embarrassingly uncomfortable when it comes to even hints of sex or sensuality. For example, I saw the latest Hobbit film in theater and there were outbursts of laughter and whoops whenever a character was beheaded. Yet, can you show even non-exclusive nudity in a PG-13 film? It is still symptom of our (USA) sex negative (and violence worshipping) culture that drives me bananas.
> 
> Sorry for the rant, but I think those who say sex can't or shouldn't be a useful story telling tool are being a little narrow. Again, depending on the type of story.



I don't think anyone was saying it can't or shouldn't be a story telling tool.  There are just some things that might make it much more useful for some authors to imply sex rather than explicitly show it.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

X Equestris said:


> I don't think anyone was saying it can't or shouldn't be a story telling tool.  There are just some things that might make it much more useful for some authors to imply sex rather than explicitly show it.


I agree. I haven't seen anyone say sex can't or shouldn't be used as a storytelling device. Rather, writers may have stated their personal reluctance. It's merely a matter of choice and style. 

Like any aspect of writing, use whatever tools you feel appropriate. Some readers will like it, some readers won't. That's the way it always is.

I also don't think Mythopoet was saying writers should water down their work to the lowest common denominator. That would only be the case if the writer were intentionally avoiding writing about something _needed_ in _their_ story because of fear regarding what another person might think. That's not what she's doing. She's making conscious choices on what tools to use to convey her story in the style she wants. That's a big distinction, in my opinion.


----------



## droiditbook303

X Equestris said:


> I don't think anyone was saying it can't or shouldn't be a story telling tool.  There are just some things that might make it much more useful for some authors to imply sex rather than explicitly show it.


Agree completely. I find that "less is more" is more impactful than explicitness, but whenever a book "fades to black" I roll my eyes which is problematic because I lose my spot. Like I said before, though, it depends on context.


----------



## Mythopoet

droiditbook303 said:


> That said, do you want to constrain your art to the lowest common denominator?



Pardon? Are you saying that the most accessible story is naturally inferior? I strongly disagree with that assumption.



droiditbook303 said:


> To digress, and I know I've touched on this before, but I find it insane that we (generally speaking, of course) love our explicit violence, but get embarrassingly uncomfortable when it comes to even hints of sex or sensuality. For example, I saw the latest Hobbit film in theater and there were outbursts of laughter and whoops whenever a character was beheaded. Yet, can you show even non-exclusive nudity in a PG-13 film? It is still symptom of our (USA) sex negative (and violence worshipping) culture that drives me bananas.



I've already addressed this. Violence and sex are apples and oranges. Constantly comparing them in this manner only indicates that you don't understand how they are different. People react differently to them because they are not the same, watching/reading them give very different experiences. 



droiditbook303 said:


> Sorry for the rant, but I think those who say sex can't or shouldn't be a useful story telling tool are being a little narrow. Again, depending on the type of story.



No one said this. We are talking about our personal reasons for whether or not we are ok with reading and/or writing explicit sex scenes.


----------



## Garren Jacobsen

Rei, 

Sorry for hijacking the thread a bit. I feel as though my post contributed to the spiral, which was not my intention.

In any event I generally do not use explicit sex. I can't write it well enough and I have religious objections to it. I do have sexuality and implied sex, and I depict the afterwards to explain the impact on my characters.


----------



## Chessie

I'm glad we're done talking about religion. Now back to sex. 

Using fantasy examples this time, I'd like to touch on the OP's question. I've probably mentioned this somewhere on these forums before but recently, I read an urban fantasy story that had pages upon pages of explicit sex scenes between the main character and her boyfriend. There was also about a page's worth of description about when her uncle molested her. There was an abundance of cuss words and just meaningless dribble. I *was* a fan of that writer up until I read that novel...and now I refuse to buy her work. Why? She turned me off. I don't find sex disgusting. I love sex. But I also think there's a time/place/purpose for it in literature.

Second example, our dear fellow write A.E. Lowan (whom I haven't seen around here in a while) wrote a short story about a vampire that I thoroughly enjoyed. The story was ripe with sexuality and it gave depth to the main character. She used specific words, phrases, and twisted her (their) language in a way that it gave artistic flavor to the minimal sex present in the story. I loved it. But I also understood that the vampire was an individual that *really* loved sex WITHOUT having to be exposed to pages of meaningless graphic demonstration. It was a beautiful depiction of a character's sexual conquests and relationship with one specific person.

Point in saying, I have no problem reading about it when its giving me insight to the character. A particular paragraph in A.E. Lowan's story used sex and sexuality as a way of pointing out things about that character which would otherwise have been difficult to let the reader in on without it. Sex became valuable.

In the first story I mentioned, sex was vulgar and treated like a commodity. I don't need to read pages about a character doing things with her boyfriend...when after all is said and done nothing changed her or drove the story forward. It drove me insane and it took me weeks to finish that book because I can't just give up once I've started. It didn't make me uncomfortable it just pissed me off. The point? 

This is why I prefer not to write graphic sex scenes. I've written erotica shorts to try and develop that part of my skill and like I mentioned earlier, writing about graphic sex is hard for me. Its also not something which fits into my fantasy stories. My readers would be thrown off if all of the sudden I described every detail of my character's drug infused sex escapades. I rather just write a few lines about her emotional state before and after, while also depicting how her sexual relationship with the antagonist affects the story (the choices she makes etc). 

For me, its not that less is more or to do with censorship and everything to do with the fact that I rather write with a lady-like femininity. No one shoot me down for this LOL. Sex is a beautiful fun act that is very human in its existence. To throw it around with graphic intention animalizes it and is disrespectful to readers, imo.


----------



## droiditbook303

This will be my last post in this topic because I feel like I'm getting off-topic with this thread, but I'm happy to continue this discussion off-thread...



Mythopoet said:


> Pardon? Are you saying that the most accessible story is naturally inferior? I strongly disagree with that assumption.



I did not make this assumption. However, trying to make your story more accessible can dilute your story or lessen what you are trying to say. 




Mythopoet said:


> I've already addressed this. Violence and sex are apples and oranges. Constantly comparing them in this manner only indicates that you don't understand how they are different. People react differently to them because they are not the same, watching/reading them give very different experiences.



Sorry to be blunt, but I see this response as an infantile way to shut down a discussion. Violence and sex are obviously different and people react to them differently, but this doesn't mean that it isn't an important comparison to make. We can get more into this offline, if you'd like.



Mythopoet said:


> No one said this. We are talking about our personal reasons for whether or not we are ok with reading and/or writing explicit sex scenes.



Yes. Yes. Nobody said this, I agree. The tone of some of these posts (especially some of the earlier ones) threw me. My apologies for figuratively putting words in other poster's mouths.


----------



## Fyle

droiditbook303 said:


> Sorry to be blunt, but I see this response as an infantile way to shut down a discussion. Violence and sex are obviously different and people react to them differently, but this doesn't mean that it isn't an important comparison to make. We can get more into this offline, if you'd like.



This is correct. 

It is important to make the comparison to defend sex by saying, look, people who are offended or turned off are by sex are the same ones who accept and enjoy violence in novels.

Since violence is worse than sex, their opinions and mindsets on the issue come from an external bias or... they are not comfortable with sex on a personal level;which most healthy functional adults should be. 


７th post driod and dead on. Welcome to the grind！

Mythos, you are right, we went too far off topic. The Jesus talk is best for a different thread. The thing is, religion and not liking or being offended by sex are related, so, its going to come up at some point when people cant explain clearly why they dont like sex in fiction.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

Fyle said:


> ...people who are offended or turned off are by sex are the same ones who accept and enjoy violence in novels.


You're generalizing.  

Some readers skip violence & fighting if they come across it in a story. Some skip sex. Some like/dislike this. Some like/dislike that. 

We can't say another's reasoning unless they tell us. We certainly can't lump everyone into camp A or camp B.


----------



## Devor

I made a point in my last post that I think was lost, here.  So I'm going to take an unusual step for me and quote myself.



Devor said:


> In the course of my day to day activities, I find very few temptations to rip somebody's heart out and chew it raw. How often am I tempted to commit adultery? That depends on what you mean by temptation, but I appreciate as few shoves in that direction as possible.
> 
> Sex is pushed aside because in our society it tempts most regular people. Violence doesn't tempt most people in anywhere near the same way.



Real life violence is "worse" than sex, but violence in fiction is not worse than sex in fiction.

Violence is fantasy.  Sex is temptation.


----------



## X Equestris

Fyle said:


> This is correct.
> 
> It is important to make the comparison to defend sex by saying, look, people who are offended or turned off are by sex are the same ones who accept and enjoy violence in novels.
> 
> Since violence is worse than sex, their opinions and mindsets on the issue come from an external bias or... they are not comfortable with sex on a personal level;which most healthy functional adults should be.
> 
> 
> ７th post driod and dead on. Welcome to the grind！
> 
> Mythos, you are right, we went too far off topic. The Jesus talk is best for a different thread. The thing is, religion and not liking or being offended by sex are related, so, its going to come up at some point when people cant explain clearly why they dont like sex in fiction.



Sex has long been considered a more private affair, and that doesn't have anything to do with religion.  Also, you do a fantastic job with generalizing.  I see two massive generalizations right here.


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## Legendary Sidekick

I think it's fair to say violence is relevant, since when you read fantasy, violence is _expected._

Specifically, you expect swords and dragon-bites and catapults and fire-breath. Fantasy violence. It gets a teen rating in video games.

Violence you don't expect in all fantasy is the kind that shows up in gritty/grimdark. What else is not expected in all fantasy is sex.

There's a line you cross, and where that line is differs for everyone, but you should be aware of that line. For example, a fairy–little three inch woman with wings–has sex with Broman the Barbarian. How many of you hate me for the mental image?

If I described it, you'd REALLY hate me. So would I. Yuck.

The point is, there's a threshold people have for sex in literature (and violence, yes), so you can't just say, "It's my art, anything goes." You still need readers.

Some readers _want_ the sex scenes. If you're that reader, be that writer. Just don't think you're automatically broadening your audience. Your sex scenes will turn some readers on (hopefully not too much) and some readers off.


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## Fyle

droiditbook303 said:


> Agree completely. I find that "less is more" is more impactful than explicitness, but whenever a book "fades to black" I roll my eyes which is problematic because I lose my spot. Like I said before, though, it depends on context.



Its about less or more on a broader scope. Limiting options simply put is less. 

This agrgument is tough because the OP said 'explicit'. 

That word to me seems pornographic which is not necessary, but graphic or detailed could be. 

Nonetheless, writing is a boundless art, and all should be considered. If you are a writer, words are your tools, cut out words due to their meaning and imagery and you throw away a piece of your toolbox. 

If you have other tools besides words, fill me in.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Fyle said:


> Its about less or more on a broader scope. Limiting options simply put is less.
> 
> This agrgument is tough because the OP said 'explicit'.
> 
> That word to me seems pornographic which is not necessary, but graphic or detailed could be.



Isn't your statement placing a limit? 
*That word to me seems pornographic which is not necessary.* 

Why is it understandable for you to place a limit where anyone else would fall under the judgment of *Limiting options simply put is less*?    



Fyle said:


> Nonetheless, writing is a boundless art, and all should be considered. If you are a writer, words are your tools, cut out words due to their meaning and imagery and you throw away a piece of your toolbox.
> 
> If you have other tools besides words, fill me in.



That I'll agree with, but it's another point entirely.   

We're talking about content....how, and to what extent, individual writers are willing to show.


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## Fyle

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Isn't your statement placing a limit?
> *That word to me seems pornographic which is not necessary.*
> 
> Why is it understandable for you to place a limit where anyone else would fall under the judgment of *Limiting options simply put is less*?
> 
> 
> 
> I meant pornography with is different from explicit sex is not necessary. Pornography is a diffent genre altogether.
> 
> But, that is not to say I would eliminate anything just because of what it is.


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## Reilith

Sorry to bud in, but let's say for the sake of discussion that 'explicit' doesn't mean 'pornographic' here, as pornography is something different and is usually not mixed with fantasy. Erotica in a fantasy setting still falls under erotica, not fantasy, so here it is about the amount of sex shown explicitly, and what kind of opinions people here have about the topic. It is not what is better, it's not a competition or a sermon "you must think like this, not like that", it is just sharing of different opinions and why people think like that.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Fyle said:


> I meant pornography with is different from explicit sex is not necessary.
> 
> Pornography is a diffent genre altogether.


That distinction is dependent on where you place your limit. What is acceptable to one individual may be considered pornographic by another.    

The definition of pornography is content with no artistic value, meant only to stimulate sexual desire. However, where that line is, separating art with artistic value from art without, is a centuries old debate.     

It's entirely a matter of an individual's point of view.


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## Fyle

_This is semantics at this point, and not what my underlining comments are about._

The important thing to me is not limiting yourself based on outside influences and to create realism, sometimes you have to write what you aren't comfortable dealing with. Not push them away because they offend or turn you off.


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## Tom

Excuse me, but I think I have a right to choose what I do and don't write. If I don't want to write an explicit sex scene, that is my choice. I am perfectly capable of writing something I'm not comfortable with, but if I do so, it will be on my own terms, not on someone else's insistence that I "have to" do it.


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## Devor

Fyle said:


> The important thing to me is not limiting yourself based on outside influences and to create realism, sometimes you have to write what you aren't comfortable dealing with. Not push them away because they offend or turn you off.



Sometimes you have to write what you aren't comfortable dealing with . . . . in order to do what?

Not everybody has, or should have, the same goals with their writing.  There are a great many places a person can take their writing, while still pushing all sorts of limits, without dealing with content they have no interest in dealing with.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Fyle said:


> This is semantics at this point, and not what my underlining comments are about.
> 
> The important thing to me is not limiting yourself based on outside influences and to create realism, sometimes you have to write what you aren't comfortable dealing with. Not push them away because they offend or turn you off.



It's not semantics.   

Since you're having trouble understanding contrary points of view, I'm trying to show you through your own.  

You consider pornography unnecessary, but the distinction of what moves from explicit to pornographic is unclear. That line is placed by each individual, call it a limit if you wish.   

Others have the same prerogative. Another writer might consider explicit sex unacceptable in the same way you think of pornographic content. Neither is right or wrong, it's simply personal opinion. Their writing will reflect personal preferences. That's one small part of what makes a writer unique.  

I have no issues with writing or reading sex, explicit or not. To date, I prefer a minimalist approach, but that's because I'd rather the reader bring their own sexuality into the tale...a filling in of the blanks. That's my approach with most description.   

That's my way. I'd never admonish another writer because they choose expression of a different form. Art would be god awful boring if we all did things the same way.


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## X Equestris

Fyle said:


> _This is semantics at this point, and not what my underlining comments are about._
> 
> The important thing to me is not limiting yourself based on outside influences and to create realism, sometimes you have to write what you aren't comfortable dealing with. Not push them away because they offend or turn you off.



Why do I need explicit sex to create realism?  The quality of my characters and worldbuilding should be able to do that.  My readers aren't morons, they should be able to recognize that sex still exists even if I don't show the nitty-gritty details.


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## Fyle

X Equestris said:


> Why do I need explicit sex to create realism?  The quality of my characters and worldbuilding should be able to do that.  My readers aren't morons, they should be able to recognize that sex still exists even if I don't show the nitty-gritty details.



I'm not saying you need sex to create realism (it can add to building a realistic world for sure). 

I am saying one day you might want to write about it, so why eliminate based on the fact it's sex?

You never have to write what you aren't comfortable writing if you don't want to. I am saying, don't count anything out based on what it is. Just keep an open mind to everything. These concepts are positive and simple to grasp. 

Negetive is - I never have to do that if I don't want to, and don't tell me what to do!_ I don't like green eggs and ham, Sam I am!_ I am decided, _foot down_.

And, I never said you **need** it, X Equestris. That would be a ridiculous statement. Same for Tom, of course you have that right, that goes without saying as well and I never said you didn't.


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## ThinkerX

A couple years ago I wrote a story with...'major adult elements'...as a sort of experiment.  It was something I hadn't attempted before; sex is usually an 'offstage' element of my writing.  That tale is in showcase somewhere (the text will have to be highlighted to read if anybody is interested).

But there is also something else I noted a long time ago, and prompted me to write that story:

Most people, including most of the posters here, will never deliberately set out to kill another human being.  Some have been in fights or military combat situations, but that's the minority.   Yet tales featuring protagonists and antagonists graphically killing and maiming large numbers of other people - frequently without regard to age or gender - are a stock feature in many fantasy stories, and other sorts of fiction as well.  Such is generally accepted.

On the other hand, the vast majority of people who live to adulthood will have sex at some point in their lives.  Yet stories featuring sex - especially explicit sex - are not generally acceptable.

I wonder about this dichotomy now and again.  Prior to writing that 'adult' piece, I'd written several tales featuring massacres and mutilations of various sorts. A couple of them did well in the various challenges.  But I grew weary of writing about strife and bloodshed.  I felt I needed to branch out a bit.   Hence the 'adult' tale.  Nobody dies in that story - for that matter, there's very little fighting although there is a degree of tension.  But sex is a central element.  Did I do something wrong or immoral in writing that story and posting it here?


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## Tom

@Fyle:

I'm not saying I'll never write a sex scene. I'm just saying that you seem to be insisting that everyone be okay with including sex in their works either now or in the future, even though other people might have objections to that based on religious beliefs or personal conviction. 

And oh, like quoting Dr. Seuss at me and saying these concepts are "simple to grasp" isn't at all condescending. And it isn't like being condescending is going to insult me or anything. That's ridiculous.


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## X Equestris

Fyle said:


> I'm not saying you need sex to create realism (it can add to building a realistic world for sure).
> 
> I am saying one day you might want to write about it, so why eliminate based on the fact it's sex?
> 
> You never have to write what you aren't comfortable writing if you don't want to. I am saying, don't count anything out based on what it is. Just keep an open mind to everything. These concepts are positive and simple to grasp.
> 
> Negetive is - I never have to do that if I don't want to, and don't tell me what to do!_ I don't like green eggs and ham, Sam I am!_ I am decided, _foot down_.
> 
> And, I never said you **need** it, X Equestris. That would be a ridiculous statement. Same for Tom, of course you have that right, that goes without saying as well and I never said you didn't.



I haven't eliminated it just because it's sex.  There are a number of other factors that make fade to black a more effective tool for what I'm doing.


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## Fyle

Tom Nimenai said:


> @Fyle:
> 
> I'm not saying I'll never write a sex scene. I'm just saying that you seem to be insisting that everyone be okay with including sex in their works either now or in the future, even though other people might have objections to that based on religious beliefs or personal conviction.
> 
> And oh, like quoting Dr. Seuss at me and saying these concepts are "simple to grasp" isn't at all condescending. And it isn't like being condescending is going to insult me or anything. That's ridiculous.



That comment wasn't for you. I mentioned a comment for you on the bottom with your name. I said to you, Tom, that you have the right to write whatever you like. 

This is why Mythic Scribes needs _POLLS_. They are fun and extinguish threads like this that the OP starts cause it's a hot topic and bows out of. People can just refer to the POLL result as a definitive answer for the thread.

The whole thread is fairly irrelevant as it is opinion. I just like to hear more positivity than people who have unmovable opinons on the subject. I say, never say never.


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## Tom

Opinions are not irrelevant. If opinions were irrelevant, this forum would not exist. The democratic voting system would not exist. Half our newspapers, websites, and books would not exist. And morning talk shows would be obsolete (not that that's necessarily a bad thing...). Opinions matter. When you say a whole thread is irrelevant because it's mostly opinion, you're kind of forgetting_ the fact that the OP was asking for our opinions on the subject._

And even if it wasn't directed at me, condescension is still condescension. Thank you.


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## Fyle

Tom Nimenai said:


> Opinions are not irrelevant. If opinions were irrelevant, this forum would not exist. The democratic voting system would not exist. Half our newspapers, websites, and books would not exist. And morning talk shows would be obsolete (not that that's necessarily a bad thing...). Opinions matter. When you say a whole thread is irrelevant because it's mostly opinion, you're kind of forgetting_ the fact that the OP was asking for our opinions on the subject._
> 
> And even if it wasn't directed at me, condescension is still condescension. Thank you.



True, opinions are relevant. 

But, the better the logic, the better the opinion. The more 'just because' the opinion has, the less relevant. 

And, the more fact a comment has, the better the opinion is that goes along with it. To be frank, I am really just against not wanting to write sex scenes cause of religion. Which is why some of my comments have a hollow and general feel. This is what I see to be not wanting sex scenes due to more than personal opinion. 

I also find it sad people are so uptight and have such strong convictions about a natural part of life and have to find it such a disturbing thought rather than shrugg it off. Which is were the violence comparison comes in. We went over that before. 

Sorry if a Dr.Suess line offends you. You may be reading too deep into this.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Fyle said:


> But, the better the logic, the better the opinion. The more 'just because' the opinion has, the less relevant.


I've seen nothing in your opinions & arguments beyond "just because".

This argument has become circular. I don't see much to gain by more discussion along this line. I'm not going to close the thread, but I would appreciate any new comments steering clear of rehashing this part of the debate.

If anyone has unheard opinions, or anything new to add to the debate, please do so.


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## Fyle

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I've seen nothing in your opinions & arguments beyond "just because".
> 
> This argument has become circular. I don't see much to gain by more discussion along this line. I'm not going to close the thread, but I would appreciate any new comments steering clear of rehashing this part of the debate.
> 
> If anyone has unheard opinions, or anything new to add to the debate, please do so.



You are right. Apologies if anyone took something personal.

I am not even sure _exactly_ what is being argued at this point I will be the first to admit. I just wish we had polls anyone could make with X amount of options and people could just vote. It seems the popular more heated debates end up circular by page 8 or 9 many times and lose track. 

Like: 

Do you include X in your novels?

* Yes, I do.    14%

* No, I don't.  24%

* If it was plot related. 4%

* I am undecided. 13%


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## T.Allen.Smith

You can make a poll with up to 10 line options. 

Feel free to do so in a separate thread, as long as it doesn't degrade back into this circular argument.


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## Tom

@X Equestris:

I go the fade-to-black route when I'm writing sex scenes as well. How do you usually execute the technique--when do you fade out, how do you keep it a clean transition, when do you pick the narrative back up again, etc? 

I usually write some foreplay, gradually allowing the narrative to become more stream-of-consciousness as arousal builds, then let that trail off into a scene fade. The next scene is usually the next morning, unless something unexpected happens during the night, like an ambush or robbery. It's a pretty standard course of action, but it works for me.


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## Giya Kusezu

Fyle said:


> *Calling sex cheap filler is borderline ridiculous and completely opinionated.* It shows a stronger connection between two characters and can be used as a tool to build who they are. If it is kept short and to the point, it is in no way shape or form "filler." I would say it's length is more relevant whether it is explicit or not, we can all agree nobodu wants to read 5-10 pages of explicit sex in fantasy... but kept as a few lines should not interrupt anything if it is plot relevant.
> 
> *Why is a natural part of life "sacred"*? I would like an explanation with as little opinion as possible so we can all understand this point of view.
> 
> In the end, it all comes down to how real you want your story to seem, and what realism does is create immersion... which is the goal for all writers across the board of every genre, nothing is more important.





Fyle said:


> The question is not whether it is well done or not. I think we have to assume it is written to a good enough standard to "work."
> 
> I am about keeping an open mind and not automatically blocking anything from your writting just because it is "fill in the blank," subject wise (technical writting is a different beast).
> 
> I am about keeping everything as an option and not saying "no way" just on the thought of it or your personal beliefs outside writing. How you think about sex, is outside influenced and a lot about personal experience and upbrining. To be honest, the less you are exposed to it, the more mysterious and alien it seems. *Its just a normal part of life and should be handled with care* because it is hard to make relevant, but it might be....





Fyle said:


> I beg to differ. The issue is about _inclusion or not _and why. Not about how well it is written, I am just trying to agree on a certain standard that the scene is not distasteful due to vulgur language is all. I could have worded it better to be fair to you, sure.
> 
> 
> Refer to the yay or nay in the OP's title for the thread for clarity on the subject.





Fyle said:


> I seek logical answers.
> 
> I don't like grapefruit, why? I can leave it at that but...
> 
> I don't like the sour acidic taste, the texture of the skin or the juicyness. We are here as writers for reasons and keep discussions strong, the discussion is the heart of a forum and needs sitmulation.
> 
> You don't like sex in novels? Please tell me why, not "_just because_". *Because of religious beliefs is fine, if you can explain in detail*. Especailly on a forum about writing! I expect more that a few lines _telling_ me why I am wrong rather than _showing_ me why I am wrong



Fyle, I think you have helped to answer your question to my original post. I view life in all forms as something sacred. Sex is a special part of life to me, and furthermore, it represents the creation of new life or the rejuvenation of existing life. While I have no problem with a scene leading up to implied sex (granted that it is done in good taste) I do object to having the actual act of sex portrayed across a page I am trying to read. To me, reading something in a book isn't much different from watching someone doing the same thing in front of me. I would be offended if someone were to get heavily "steamy" or have sex right in front of me. Reading the same thing in a book also bothers me, for the following reason: I can visualize it very well, and I do not want to see such a thing. I do not believe it is my business what someone else does while making love with their partner, just like it's not their business what I do with my partner. It's private.

As has been stated in other posts, it is a matter of personal preference. I never actually cited religion as a part of my reason, although yes, that does have something to do with my personal choices and preferences. However, my personal stance on this could also be affected by other factors, such as if I was bothered by the thought of someone being molested. I think it is easier for some people to accept sexual acts than it is for others. I will unashamedly tell you that sometimes sex does embarrass me, for the above-stated reason that it is a special, private thing in my view.

Please understand that I am not trying to argue or tell you that you are "bad" or anything like that. I am trying to explain my personal view of why I don't agree with explicit sex scenes in literature. Everyone has their personal choice and a right to choose what they do or don't like.

Also, I would respectfully add that in my view, sex is not the only method available of constructing a deep, strong relationship between two characters. I understand that some people choose to use sex toward this means. As for me myself, I prefer to use other methods to connect characters emotionally.

TLR - Not including explicit sex scenes in a story is my personal choice. It feels disrespectful to me to treat something I see as special as so ordinary that it could happen on the sidewalk in front of a crowd of people and no one would be bothered. Of course some people will be bothered. Sure, others won't. But everyone has their preference.



Brian Scott Allen said:


> Fyle you asked
> 
> I believe I may have an answer for you. Giya, correct me if I am wrong, is likely a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am basing this off of the sacred statements and location. I think it's a safe enough assumption for now. However, if I am wrong I apologize.



Yep, I'm a Mormon  Thank you for being respectful in your approach to the matter, even if I hadn't been Mormon.


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## Giya Kusezu

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I've seen nothing in your opinions & arguments beyond "just because".
> 
> This argument has become circular. I don't see much to gain by more discussion along this line. I'm not going to close the thread, but I would appreciate any new comments steering clear of rehashing this part of the debate.
> 
> If anyone has unheard opinions, or anything new to add to the debate, please do so.



Many apologies. I had given up reading the last few pages before posting my most recent response.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Understandable. You're just getting back into the thread,l but let's steer clear from this point forward.


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## Vilya

X Equestris said:


> Why do I need explicit sex to create realism?  The quality of my characters and worldbuilding should be able to do that.  My readers aren't morons, they should be able to recognize that sex still exists even if I don't show the nitty-gritty details.



I personally don't go and tell everyone in my circle about my sex life.  They still seem to come to the conclusion that I am a real person.  Sex is no more necessary for realism, in my opinion, than it is necessary to show every time your MC has a meal or takes a "leak".  

I don't write sex scenes and I personally don't care to read them.  If I know a book has a lot of sex scenes in it, then I will just pass it over for something more my taste.  Every time I stumble upon a sex scene in a fantasy novel I feel like I have been hit over the head with a blunt object and am left stumbling to find out why it was important.  I have yet to find an instance where it has been.


----------



## Ayaka Di'rutia

I'm with Giya on her view about sex in literature.  I consider it sacred as well, and it shouldn't be lightly portrayed.  It just becomes porn when it's described in detail. 

When I include sex in my books, I may do some foreplay, and then do a fade to black sort of thing; I don't describe the actual act.  Most readers will get what happened anyway.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

Giya Kusezu said:


> sex is not the only method available of constructing a deep, strong relationship between two characters. I understand that some people choose to use sex toward this means. As for me myself, I prefer to use other methods to connect characters emotionally.


I actually had a scene with a bard and a huntress. The huntress danced to the bard's playing, in that scene, and one comment from a beta reader was that the dance scene was "evocative."

In fact, the Huntress is a lesbian and the bard is male, so while they developed a friendship during the adventure, sex was never in the realm of possibility. In this piece the MC's sexual preference wasn't mentioned. It wasn't important to the story to mention that, and I think that the scene was "sexy" in a way, though there was no physical contact or removal of clothing.

I simply needed the characters to bond, and since there was a language barrier, I thought music would strengthen the bond.


----------



## X Equestris

Tom Nimenai said:


> @X Equestris:
> 
> I go the fade-to-black route when I'm writing sex scenes as well. How do you usually execute the technique--when do you fade out, how do you keep it a clean transition, when do you pick the narrative back up again, etc?
> 
> I usually write some foreplay, gradually allowing the narrative to become more stream-of-consciousness as arousal builds, then let that trail off into a scene fade. The next scene is usually the next morning, unless something unexpected happens during the night, like an ambush or robbery. It's a pretty standard course of action, but it works for me.



I do much the same.  Usually, I build it up enough for the audience to know what is being implied, and then cut it off before the act.  Ends of chapters are good places for that.  I've also done a "fade from black" if you will, where I opened a short story the morning after.


----------



## Panda

Legendary Sidekick said:


> * by NOT having a sex scene because my lesbian Huntress is pining for a friend of hers who loves her like a sister, but isn't a lesbian so the love won't ever be what the Huntress wants... well, does that make my character look like an unbelievable sap?



I don't think I've ever met a lesbian who _hasn't_ gone through that at some point.


----------



## Fyle

Out of respect for the mod's wishes to kind of end this thread. I will just say this:

_Giya, thanks for that explanation_, it is a lot better than most people offer. 

Can't say I agree with every point, but I guess we'll take that to _Chit Chat _one day.


----------

