# Agents and Timing



## Russ (Dec 3, 2015)

So I was chatting with a senior editor in the publishing industry yesterday.

She tells me that when they get a call from a significant agent asking them to look at a book, they usually read it and get back to them within three days.

When they get a manuscript from an average agent it takes about two weeks.

Compare that to slush pile times.

Moral of the story?  If you want to be traditionally published...get an agent.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 3, 2015)

Hey Russ, 

I was wondering, how can one tell what a good agent is vs. a great one? I mean, I had my top picks, like Nelson Literary Agency's Sara Megibow and Donald Maas Agency, and a few others, but once they've rejected my manuscript, I sort of have to write them off, don't I? I feel like I've sort of exhausted my first choices (which were admittedly limited in number), but how do we as amateur writers find that next threshold of good/ great agents that weren't maybe our top picks of people who represented books just like ours (or whatever)?

I know this probably sounds like something so simple for you, but I'm woefully confused by HOW I could ascertain what quality of agent I'm querying.  Basically, right now, I look at what an agent represents, what they like, and try to figure out what their expectations are (if they don't flat out say them, which makes my world easier). The thing is, I'm maybe more concerned about trying to get my work to the right person who will get excited about it? I'm not sure.  Should I be doing something else? And how can we determine who has the kind of pull with publishers you mention above? Most agents I've looked at have a list of titles they've personally represented (and I've never seen anyone with more than maybe 7-8, but most have 2-5 listed) and a list of titles their agency represented (and sometimes all those titles on a cute little carousel or whatever, so we can see the covers). I'm just not sure what I SHOULD expect, you know?  Like I'm too busy feeling like maybe being picky isn't a right I've earned?


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## Heliotrope (Dec 3, 2015)

Good God, I'm impressed you even sent anything to Donald Maas in the first place! You've go some serious woman balls. 

I LOVE LOVE LOVE everything Donald Maas has to say on writing (Yes, I own all of his books) but I'm not sure I would be gutsy enough to send anything to him. So good on you! 

In Canada we have the Writers Union, and so most of the really good agents are listed here 

https://www.writersunion.ca/content/literary-agents

I'm not sure if they accept books from american authors… though I'm not sure why they wouldn't? Russ would know more than me about that. 

One day I will submit to Donald Maas… just for the hell of it.


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## MineOwnKing (Dec 3, 2015)

_Preditors and Editors _, is the name of the site I made my agent list from. 

It took me a while to find the agents that focus on Fantasy. 

I went from A to Z and researched every agency.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 4, 2015)

I wrote down the names of the agents and agencies I've queried.  Might be fun to haul out one time and share with you all.  I've probably sent out two dozen over the last four years, so not much, but I wanted to keep a list so I knew where I was.  I queried one agent twice and got two partial requests, but that was as far as I got before I sort of gave up and just decided my writing must not be strong enough yet.


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## Mythopoet (Dec 4, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> Hey Russ,
> 
> I was wondering, how can one tell what a good agent is vs. a great one? I mean, I had my top picks, like Nelson Literary Agency's Sara Megibow and Donald Maas Agency, and a few others, but once they've rejected my manuscript, I sort of have to write them off, don't I? I feel like I've sort of exhausted my first choices (which were admittedly limited in number), but how do we as amateur writers find that next threshold of good/ great agents that weren't maybe our top picks of people who represented books just like ours (or whatever)?
> 
> I know this probably sounds like something so simple for you, but I'm woefully confused by HOW I could ascertain what quality of agent I'm querying.  Basically, right now, I look at what an agent represents, what they like, and try to figure out what their expectations are (if they don't flat out say them, which makes my world easier). The thing is, I'm maybe more concerned about trying to get my work to the right person who will get excited about it? I'm not sure.  Should I be doing something else? And how can we determine who has the kind of pull with publishers you mention above? Most agents I've looked at have a list of titles they've personally represented (and I've never seen anyone with more than maybe 7-8, but most have 2-5 listed) and a list of titles their agency represented (and sometimes all those titles on a cute little carousel or whatever, so we can see the covers). I'm just not sure what I SHOULD expect, you know?  Like I'm too busy feeling like maybe being picky isn't a right I've earned?



He doesn't actually mean the quality of the agent from the pov of a writer. He means how much clout the agent has with publishers. Not that you can get a good idea of either of those things in any real measurable way. Because all the agents will talk about how great they are and how hard they'll work for you and how many connections they have if they actually want to represent you. You could try talking to some of their other clients, if you can find out who they are. Specifically, their less famous and rick clients would be the ones you want to ask about them. You can judge an agent by how well they treat the client that brings in less money than the others. 

But you know, there is nothing governing the behavior of agents, agents are totally unlicensed. Literally, you or I could start calling ourselves agents and we would have as many qualifications as most agents out there today. So, honestly, you get an agent at your own risk. 

Also, lol, Russ, bless your heart. You actually believe what publishing execs tell you.


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## Russ (Dec 7, 2015)

Mythopoet said:


> Also, lol, Russ, bless your heart. You actually believe what publishing execs tell you.




My family having worked in that industry for a couple of generations, my father having been one, and this particular person being a good friend of many years...yes I do.  Certainly far more than I would trust you on the subject. 

Strangely enough they are real people too.  Or do you think they all have horns?


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## Russ (Dec 7, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> Hey Russ,
> 
> I was wondering, how can one tell what a good agent is vs. a great one? I mean, I had my top picks, like Nelson Literary Agency's Sara Megibow and Donald Maas Agency, and a few others, but once they've rejected my manuscript, I sort of have to write them off, don't I? I feel like I've sort of exhausted my first choices (which were admittedly limited in number), but how do we as amateur writers find that next threshold of good/ great agents that weren't maybe our top picks of people who represented books just like ours (or whatever)?
> 
> I know this probably sounds like something so simple for you, but I'm woefully confused by HOW I could ascertain what quality of agent I'm querying.  Basically, right now, I look at what an agent represents, what they like, and try to figure out what their expectations are (if they don't flat out say them, which makes my world easier). The thing is, I'm maybe more concerned about trying to get my work to the right person who will get excited about it? I'm not sure.  Should I be doing something else? And how can we determine who has the kind of pull with publishers you mention above? Most agents I've looked at have a list of titles they've personally represented (and I've never seen anyone with more than maybe 7-8, but most have 2-5 listed) and a list of titles their agency represented (and sometimes all those titles on a cute little carousel or whatever, so we can see the covers). I'm just not sure what I SHOULD expect, you know?  Like I'm too busy feeling like maybe being picky isn't a right I've earned?



Sorry to take so long to respond to your question but I was out of town on business and hate typing on an ipad.

Anyways the easy way to tell a good agent from a great one is who they represent.  Great agents tend to have great clients and for me their client list is the best indicator of how they are doing.

But getting an agent is not quite that simple and let me throw around a few other thoughts I have on the subject.

Firstly, your first agent may well not be your last one.  Some agents are willing to take a chance on unbranded authors and they may not be able to service your needs once you reach certain levels of success.  Only a few authors I know who have had a long career in writing are with the same agent they started with.  So what you are looking for is the agent who suits your needs right now.

Now, while it may seem obvious, I always reccomend finding out who represents authors in your field and represents work similar to yours.  At least you know they may well like the kind of work you do.  

I also recommend going out to meet agents or just see them speak as often as  you can. They are often at conferences etc, and can be quite accessible.  Many conferences have organized pitch sessions and pitch training sessions where you learn to pitch and then get to pitch to real agents.  It is a great experience.  It also allows you to see and hear from them and see if you like/respect them as people.  They can play an important role in your career so you should be looking for someone you think you can work well with (which, by the by, is different that someone you enjoy working with- an agent should push you and make you uncomfortable at times if they are doing your job well).

As an aside, people sometimes say they cannot afford to go to conferences or talks etc.  I get that, but it is all about prioritization.  Good conferences are really valuable to a writer's career.  It is hard to fork out that money but I think it should be a high priority if you plan to publish traditionally for a living.

Have a look and see the agent's background.  Do they come from a publishing background?  A legal background?  Editing?  Or did they learn their trade inside a good agency?  Background is very important.  By looking at agent list and background you can easily weed out  most of the real charlatons out there.

You may also want to take courses that are taught by successful authors.  If they like your writing they may well recomend you to their agent and that can take you a long way.

I also believe you can leverage agents.  If you are a debut author and your favourites are represented by say...Donald Maas (who is a very nice man in person) look for a new agent at the agency looking to build a book of business.  For instance at Maas this lady might well be appropriate for an unpublished fantasy author:

Caitlin McDonald Ã‚Â» Donald Maass Literary Agency

She may well be looking to build her book of business and her agency name will open lots of doors for her.

The other nice part about "leveraging" a younger agent is that when your book starts selling like crazy and they want to look at overseas rights or movies or whatever all they have to do is walk down the hall to someone to find out how to handle those issues that come from significant success.

There is no doubt that Canadian agents will be happy to represent American writers.  You should screen them the same way you would screen US agents.

CM I do think you should be picky about your agent if you serious about being traditionally published.  They play an important role in your career but do keep in mind that you are not stuck with them forever.  You can "trade up" as your writing career grows.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 7, 2015)

That was exactly what I was hoping to understand better, thanks. I frequently look up an agent and see what they represented, but like I said, I never recognized any of the titles and there were only a few, and it just seemed so confusing when I was trying to compare agents to each other. Really, I'm looking for someone who has an established pattern of success, because though I know it's easier to get picked up by a new agent, I"m a new writer, really, and I need someone with experience as I gain experience. 

I really do want to submit my fantasy series to agents, though I've somewhat resolved myself to taking my stand alone novels and self-publishing them, along with some shorts. Querying is hard work and it can be frustrating as you make up three versions of your query letter, edit it each time, and then find you also need three versions of a synopsis too.  Lots of writing to do after the writing's done for the book. I'd really like to find an agent who has confidence in my work, but I've yet to hook anyone. So that makes this even harder to decipher on my own. 

I appreciate your response, because you thoroughly answered my question, and I never thought of attending a conference and learning how to pitch to agents in person. How interesting...and nerve-wracking. Might be a good start though, since sending emails hasn't gotten me anywhere. I'm obviously missing something, but I'm unsure what it is.

I'd like to ask you to clarify this:


> Have a look and see the agent's background. Do they come from a publishing background? A legal background? Editing? Or did they learn their trade inside a good agency? Background is very important. By looking at agent list and background you can easily weed out most of the real charlatons out there.



Um...to me, that doesn't really tell me who to weed out. Are you saying a publishing background is best, inside a good agency, I assume? I know some small-time publishers and there are more than a couple reasons I haven't asked them to publish my books for me.  Sorry to say that, because they're nice people, but I know it isn't any better than me doing it on my own. So If you could clarify that statement, just to make sure i'm getting the right gist, I'd appreciate it.


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## Russ (Dec 8, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> Um...to me, that doesn't really tell me who to weed out. Are you saying a publishing background is best, inside a good agency, I assume? I know some small-time publishers and there are more than a couple reasons I haven't asked them to publish my books for me.  Sorry to say that, because they're nice people, but I know it isn't any better than me doing it on my own. So If you could clarify that statement, just to make sure i'm getting the right gist, I'd appreciate it.



Always happy to clarify something.

When I say a publishing background I mean acquiring editors, publishers, or people who have worked on contracts for publishers, either in their accounting end or their legal department.  You want people with two types of knowledge.  The knowledge of how the contact works and all of its ramifications, and people who know what the current standards for all of those terms are.

You can find agents out there who do not have the requisite background to do the job well.  They don't have any personal connections in the industry and they don't have the technical knowledge to maximize what you can get from a contract.  Of the agents I know and respect they have come to the position through one of three ways:

1) the legal department of a publisher
2) the acquiring end of publishing
3) working their way up at a reputable agency.

I have no doubt that some excellent agents have taken other routes to success, but these three areas are good backgrounds for an agent.

Here is an article my friend Rob Sawyer wrote about getting an agent that includes a list of some solid agents:

Science Fiction Writer Robert J. Sawyer: Landing an Agent

The other thing I forgot to mention about conferences is that not only should you go to them, you should volunteer at them.  Firstly it can help keep your costs down, secondly, if you work say in "the green room" or organizing the agents panel, etc it will give you better more personal access to people in the industry.

Happy  hunting!


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 8, 2015)

Thanks!  That clarified it a lot. Like I said, I know a few friends who have opened "publishing companies" or are trying to get them off the ground, but I don't feel that's the right fit for me, because they don't have any more connections than I have. So, it's hard for me to determine how many connections an agent has, that's why I look at what they've represented and how good those books look, and how people review them, and how well they seem to be promoted or selling. I feel like that's the truest evidence of whether an agent has done their job. Is there a better way? Dang, I'd take this into private messages, but I feel it might benefit other writers, so I'm still talking here. 

 Please don't judge me, scribes. I'm sort of a business idiot.  This might all seem like common sense, but to me, it isn't. It's new and confusing, and sort of makes me anxious because I'm afraid of making a mistake--which was why I stopped querying once my list of top five were rejections.  I didn't know where else to go, and I felt I'd blown through my list of people I knew were right for me.


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## skip.knox (Dec 8, 2015)

>Lots of writing to do after the writing's done for the book. 

This is so important ... and so discouraging for a new author! But it's a truth, however grim. If we are truly writers, then we have to get used to the idea that we write *lots* of things outside our novels. Nowadays it is nearly as important to find that voice as it is to find our storytelling voice. In fact, the more successful we are (for a time), the more non-fiction we are going to have to write. And, really, it's not all that grim. It's just us being us. The key to that public voice (as distinct from the story teller voice) is to be genuine. It doesn't have to be brilliant, just genuine.

Anyway, this is but one example of why you were right, Caged Maiden. This discussion is worthwhile for all.


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## skip.knox (Dec 8, 2015)

I want to echo what Russ says about conferences. Attend as many as you can, even outside the genre. The investment is comparatively small. For most, you'll get some benefit at the first visit, with diminishing returns. For a handful of golden ones, you'll benefit year after year. There really is no way to predict which ones will work for you. The only sure thing is that not going is a mistake.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 8, 2015)

Well, I've gotten to a point where I know how to write a book.  I might not be executing all my stories well, or even as well as they should be, but I know what's wrong with them and can fix them in time. Unfortunately, my pitch might be weaker than my novel openings. I have a few good query letters I've written (one or two for each of my dozen novels), but I mean, the possibilities are endless. I could write a dozen queries for each, and they might each sound better than the last, in a never-ending loop! I appreciate those agents who post examples of queries they've signed, because that at least lets me know how they like a pitch to feel. Some hate rhetorical questions (like Nathan Bransford, when he was an agent, writing repeatedly about how he abhorred rhetorical questions in a pitch), while others don't seem bothered one way or another about it. Others want a FULL synopsis with all the secrets and twists revealed, even the ending, while others want a 2-3 page synopsis with all the major plot points, but none of the secrets and the ending left open with a question of sorts, and yet others want a 1 page synopsis with all the mysteries phrased so as not to give away the answers, but to create drama and give an idea of only the story's central conflict and the other smaller conflicts and twists. HOW CONFUSING!!! Do yourselves a favor, scribes...Write all three!!!

And while some agents say it's fine to write nothing about yourself personally in your query, some expect to get a solid idea of who you are, all in three or four sentences that sound like third person boasting. That makes me really uncomfortable. I hate doing that.  I don't mention myself in the queries. I want my story to appeal to a potential agent, not my trumped-up nothing background in writing. If I had something worthwhile to put in there, I'd do it, but as it stands now...I have nothing to say about myself and have no credentials worth mentioning.

It isn't that I don't know how to write a query, because I do, but I have a terrible time picking the right query to send to a given agent. Unless they tell me what they want, I'm just stabbing in the dark.  I certainly will attend conferences in the upcoming year. I think you're right--I need to learn how to pitch a story, since i'm well on my way to being able to churn out words that don't suck, at a great rate. HA! But I'm losing the whole ball game in the ninth inning, because my batters all took their shoes off to relax, and it ain't time to get comfortable, boys! This game ain't over till the last out!

Research (more thoroughly) how to pitch to an agent...CHECK!


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## skip.knox (Dec 9, 2015)

Have you tried Query Shark?


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 9, 2015)

I've never heard of it, but i'll check it out.  The thing is, I've written all my queries following Nathan Bransford's list of DO/ DO NOTs, and i think they al work pretty well, but it's hard to figure out what to write in only two paragraphs. mOst agents who have given advice on the matter seem to echo their preference that a query lead into the beginning of the novel in the first paragraph, and hit the inciting incident, and the second paragraph is a summary of the remaining central conflict.

Again, I know I can write the right thing if given a formula from an agent's site, but the problem is, I could write a dozen, and not know which to send to a particular agent, because they don't specify what works for them. I've had writers crit my queries, and they all seem to be working on different formulas than I am, and that's fine, but how can I decide which version to send to a given agent, if they don't say what they're looking for? I'm going to do more research...and more queries.  Maybe in the future, Ill start another query thread.


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## skip.knox (Dec 10, 2015)

Oh, do look at Query Shark. If you're brave, you can submit your query, but she has a bunch of articles, plus it's _really_ informative to read the two hundred plus queries that she has critiqued over the years. It goes right along with Joel Friedman's review of book covers. Both are, imo, essential.


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