# Deities and hierarchy



## cliche (Jan 9, 2012)

I am questioning whether to have the deities have direct contact in the world or whether it is never truly revealed whether they exist or not.  

If the deities exist then I'll probably place i hierarchy amongst the people that are based around it
It would go something like this:
Higher heirarchy:
God/Deity - self explanatory 
representation of that god; known as an oricle (they are people who are present for meetings and other things in the gods place and can draw power directly from them).
Elders - These are the people who make the overall decision of the talk within the governments, they listen to government and their stratagies and make the overall decision, which then must first be confirmed by an oracle.
    changlings (name off the top of my head, I will most likely change the name when I come to write this out properly). These are people with unusual characteristics (forked tongue, talons, etc), as soon as they are found they are taken within the towers from which they are raised to serve the gods and are almost guaranteed a throne to the government (only certain changlings may have influence over decisions and there is a waiting list for the person who has to wait.
   Government - People who make important decisions considering the welfare of their civilisation.
Emperor- A basic figure head for the people, he sets an example and tries to make other people follow, he automaticall has a seat amongst the government and has say in what happens. He must carry out several of the rituals that are demanded to 'please' the gods (even though they very few of them think that this is necassary). 
general- person who commands over the army and sworn loyalty to all those above. He/she is in control of tactics of the army and in charge of the executioners.
Monarchs- These are people who are the head figure of a particular city, they come to discussions and meetings which concern them at the capital.
  Officers- These watch over the cities and report back to the general (whom then supplies the information either to the government or directly to the oracles)
  Executioners - these are people that carry out the punishment upon the appropiate people (as long as it is authorized by the emperor).
Soldiers - Several divisions, one of the lowest ranks within the ranks

Lower hierarchy:
1st class citizen - people who are rich and can afford to live lives of luxary without having to work 
2nd class citizen - people who are not in poverty but still must work for a living 
3rd class citizan- lowest rank of all the hierarchy, they must work and often get the worse jobs and conditions.

Changling and the government are about the same rank though this is one thing that I may change.

Lower hierarchy is what is considered to be civilians, they are pretty much never aloud to have any influence 
within the towers.
Higher hierarchy are the ranks that controls what happens within the society and decide whether a different society may be a threat that must be extinguished or a society that is showing very little signs of aggression.

The gods are never seen and live in a completely separate building, no one apart from the oracles and a select few may enter, if anything needs to be forwarded to the oracles they either request an audience or deliver the message at the next meeting. People who are against the gods or question their existance is challenged by an oracle, refusal is banishment or execution (depending on how much trouble that person has caused).

A lot of this is off the top of my head so there will be some hiccups here and there
If Deities are not known to be real then it will be pretty much then drawing their energy from an unknown source from which they assume is the gods giving them strength.

This hierarchy is only very basic and many other things will be added to it, if there is anything that I have missed out that is essential or if there is something that you do not agree with please tell me.
I would be glad to hear people opinions about this plan.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 9, 2012)

Regardless of what you do, you have a very good system thought up. I really love mythology and adding deities in my stories because you get to exagerate things and truly broaden your imagination. In my story, the Gods DO have direct contact with their worshippers. I am not sure how important they are to your story, but I think for the time they should be a mystery.

This is like a story I once read called Nagash the Sorcerer. Mankind thought that magic only came from the gods (and it was never truly revealed if they existed or not but you were supposed to assume so I guess) until one man discovers that magic can be harnessed from the world itself and that it doesn't come (just) from the Gods.


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## cliche (Jan 12, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> Regardless of what you do, you have a very good system thought up. I really love mythology and adding deities in my stories because you get to exagerate things and truly broaden your imagination. In my story, the Gods DO have direct contact with their worshippers. I am not sure how important they are to your story, but I think for the time they should be a mystery.
> 
> This is like a story I once read called Nagash the Sorcerer. Mankind thought that magic only came from the gods (and it was never truly revealed if they existed or not but you were supposed to assume so I guess) until one man discovers that magic can be harnessed from the world itself and that it doesn't come (just) from the Gods.



Thanks, the only problem that I have at the moment is that I need to figure out how to impliment the Gods and give them power that doesn't make them entirely invincible.


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## DameiThiessen (Jan 12, 2012)

Ooh, I love coming up with government structure!

What you have here isn't bad. But I do think you should do some more research on different government structures that exist today. Some of your titles like "Emperor" and "Monarch" actually apply to different kinds of government, and mashing them all together can be confusing for a reader.


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## cliche (Jan 12, 2012)

DameiThiessen said:


> Ooh, I love coming up with government structure!
> 
> What you have here isn't bad. But I do think you should do some more research on different government structures that exist today. Some of your titles like "Emperor" and "Monarch" actually apply to different kinds of government, and mashing them all together can be confusing for a reader.


Yeah you do have a point, as you can see politics clearly isnt one of my strong point. I will take your advice and look into it more and rename them appropriatly


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## The Blue Lotus (Jan 12, 2012)

cliche said:


> Thanks, the only problem that I have at the moment is that I need to figure out how to impliment the Gods and give them power that doesn't make them entirely invincible.



All magic (power) comes with a price. 
Why does a single god have to have all the power? Can't you assign specific powers to each of them? Water, Fire, Wind, Weather, etc etc., that way if a war ever broke out they would cancel each other out. Would also let you work in power theft. 
Just floating you some ideas.


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## cliche (Jan 12, 2012)

The Blue Lotus said:


> All magic (power) comes with a price.
> Why does a single god have to have all the power? Can't you assign specific powers to each of them? Water, Fire, Wind, Weather, etc etc., that way if a war ever broke out they would cancel each other out. Would also let you work in power theft.
> Just floating you some ideas.



Good idea, though there isnt a single god there are several, but giving each individual god a different power would be ideal. 
I just need to think of what the Gods weaknesses are, perhaps there is an item that  kill anything if it comes into contact with them or maybe that the Gods only live and continues to be almighty if they are believed in.
Just a wild thought but maybe they could each have their own weaknesses. For example one of the Gods could be taken advantage of because he has a kind heart, but ironically he could be the god of war. Though there will have to be a way for him to oversee certain things when he is in battle.
Power theft is also an interesting idea and opens up loads of different doors where plot is concerned


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## The Blue Lotus (Jan 12, 2012)

Ever play rock paper scissors?

Rock beats scissors, paper covers rock, scissors cup paper. Maybe in your case Water could put out fire, wind dispells weather etc etc.


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## cliche (Jan 12, 2012)

The Blue Lotus said:


> Ever play rock paper scissors?
> 
> Rock beats scissors, paper covers rock, scissors cup paper. Maybe in your case Water could put out fire, wind dispells weather etc etc.


Yeah that's true, though it may be a bit more difficult to decide which beats what as they most of the gods wont be represented by elements


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## The Blue Lotus (Jan 12, 2012)

What you want will come to you in time. Enjoy.


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## cliche (Jan 12, 2012)

The Blue Lotus said:


> What you want will come to you in time. Enjoy.


True, I've already got some ideas, I may post them later on

Do you think that the Gods be more human like (as in morality) or do you think that they should revolve more around the overall impact of events and not the loss of life (do not feel that it is morally wrong for people to die as long as it is for a good cause).


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 14, 2012)

cliche said:


> True, I've already got some ideas, I may post them later on
> 
> Do you think that the Gods be more human like (as in morality) or do you think that they should revolve more around the overall impact of events and not the loss of life (do not feel that it is morally wrong for people to die as long as it is for a good cause).



I think it depends on your story too. In my story, it is Heavily revolved around multiple pantheons I invented. And when I mean heavily, I mean it. The Gods in my story are all wicked but still the divine lords of heaven. They all crave to be the only prime deity and so they command their worshippers to kill in their name. The Gods also force mankind to pray and worship and feed them with immortality because they threaten them with damnation. "Worship me and kill in my glorious name, or have your soul cast into eternal torment and unfathomable anguish."

But not everything has to be "black and white" with your story. Maybe some Gods covette other gods and are jealous?  Like in Egyptian religion, Seth (or Set) was the God of storms and chaos and he manifested evil and wickedness. He was jealous of his brother Osiris and he murdered him and appointed him Lord of Egypt. However, Osiris and Isis bore a child, Horus, who sought to avenge his father's death. You can get really creative with things like this. Making the Gods like a family.


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## cliche (Jan 14, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> I think it depends on your story too. In my story, it is Heavily revolved around multiple pantheons I invented. And when I mean heavily, I mean it. The Gods in my story are all wicked but still the divine lords of heaven. They all crave to be the only prime deity and so they command their worshippers to kill in their name. The Gods also force mankind to pray and worship and feed them with immortality because they threaten them with damnation. "Worship me and kill in my glorious name, or have your soul cast into eternal torment and unfathomable anguish."
> 
> But not everything has to be "black and white" with your story. Maybe some Gods covette other gods and are jealous?  Like in Egyptian religion, Seth (or Set) was the God of storms and chaos and he manifested evil and wickedness. He was jealous of his brother Osiris and he murdered him and appointed him Lord of Egypt. However, Osiris and Isis bore a child, Horus, who sought to avenge his father's death. You can get really creative with things like this. Making the Gods like a family.



I think your idea of having the gods forcing their followers to do their bidding is a great twist.
I like the idea though of having the gods as a family and I will have to find a wy to impliment it somehow


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 14, 2012)

cliche said:


> I think your idea of having the gods forcing their followers to do their bidding is a great twist.
> I like the idea though of having the gods as a family and I will have to find a wy to impliment it somehow



Well only do it if you think it will benefit your storyline. But if you look at most world religions, they describe the deities in their pantheon as being a family, or at least acting like one. Being the HUGE warhamemr 40K nerd that I am, I recomend that you read about the 4 Gods of Chaos: Khorne, The Blood God. Nurgle, Lord of Decay. Slaanesh, the Prince of Excess. Tzeentch, Changer of the Ways. You can find a lot of info on them at Lexicanum.com but you probably wont understand most of it if you are not familiar with the 40K universe. Also, the forgotten realms have some really cool stuff dealing with demons and stuff like that. Here's an interesting page I found that might help you out.
Graz'zt - The Forgotten Realms Wiki - Books, races, classes, and more


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## cliche (Jan 14, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> Well only do it if you think it will benefit your storyline. But if you look at most world religions, they describe the deities in their pantheon as being a family, or at least acting like one. Being the HUGE warhamemr 40K nerd that I am, I recomend that you read about the 4 Gods of Chaos: Khorne, The Blood God. Nurgle, Lord of Decay. Slaanesh, the Prince of Excess. Tzeentch, Changer of the Ways. You can find a lot of info on them at Lexicanum.com but you probably wont understand most of it if you are not familiar with the 40K universe. Also, the forgotten realms have some really cool stuff dealing with demons and stuff like that. Here's an interesting page I found that might help you out.
> Graz'zt - The Forgotten Realms Wiki - Books, races, classes, and more


That website goes into a lot of depth with that god. It mkaes me realize to what extent I can go into detail when family and history is concerned and it gives me ideas on what direction I should go concerning the family. It also makes me think about having outcasts amongst the gods. These could be gods that for one reason or another lost their title as a god and be forced to go into hiding. Thank you for sharing that web page, it has broadened my imagination when it comes down to gods as a family


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 14, 2012)

cliche said:


> That website goes into a lot of depth with that god. It mkaes me realize to what extent I can go into detail when family and history is concerned and it gives me ideas on what direction I should go concerning the family. It also makes me think about having outcasts amongst the gods. These could be gods that for one reason or another lost their title as a god and be forced to go into hiding. Thank you for sharing that web page, it has broadened my imagination when it comes down to gods as a family



Well I'm glad that you liked it! Good luck with your writting and when you do come up with something I would very much like to read about it.


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## ascanius (Jan 21, 2012)

Hey cliche I would recommend you get a book on world mythology, one that deals with the gods of the classical age but Norse, Native American, Japanese to name a few.  There is a lot of mythology beyond what we are familiar with.  I think it would be a gold mine for you.


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## Valiant (Jan 22, 2012)

Depending on how your story proceeds, typically having deities remain as mysterious and hands off as possible adds to suspense, or adds to the mind's ability to speculate, and build the ideas on its own. 

The examples I have to support my claim are (sorry movie/game titles):

Immortals - The gods are given human like personalities, which in turn removes the god like mystery that surrounds them. You learn enough about them to know who to root for, and who is right, and who is wrong, and eventually them all dying doesn't really weigh heavily on your emotions

The Elder Scrolls - Contact with the gods (and daedric princes) is kept to an absolute minimum, while giving subtle clues to their characteristics through lore, and little messages throughout the games. An immense mystery surrounds them, which gives the user a more awe-like experience during an interaction with them. 

I could go on, but hopefully I have made my point how the more mystery that surrounds an ancient being, the more there is for the reader to conjure up in their imagination.


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## cliche (Jan 22, 2012)

ascanius said:


> Hey cliche I would recommend you get a book on world mythology, one that deals with the gods of the classical age but Norse, Native American, Japanese to name a few.  There is a lot of mythology beyond what we are familiar with.  I think it would be a gold mine for you.



Good idea. Though I think it may be a good idea to do that kind of research online through websites specifically made for that type of information, that way i do not have to spend money on books and having to shop around to find the best one.


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