# Quick, quiet death by dagger



## Steerpike (Jul 21, 2013)

My character has to kill two students. They're sleeping off some wine, so they're deep asleep. He needs to kill them both without waking either one. He has a dagger. He also has knowledge of anatomy.  What do you think - through the heart; through the eye; base of the skull severing the spine? What is the fastest and quietest method?


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## Ankari (Jul 21, 2013)

Hand over the mouth, slit the throat.

I've seen in movies that the best way to kill someone silently is to stab them through the back for the heart and puncture the lung. The reasoning is that once the lung is punctured, the wounded can't push air through his throat.

Another Scribes member once listed this website for such problems. It's called The Writer's Forensics Blog


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## Steerpike (Jul 21, 2013)

Thanks, Ankari. Throat-slitting makes sense. I was making this too complicated 

Nice link, too. I appreciate it.


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## ndmellen (Jul 22, 2013)

Fastest bleed out points are the femoral or carotid artery. I remember seeing some of these when I was a medic. These things get pricked and they gush blood. Bleed out time is very quick. Not gonna lie, I don't know your story but I kind of like the idea of the hand over the mouth, forearm on throat, quick cut to the femoral. I don't think I've ever read anything like that before.


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## SeverinR (Jul 22, 2013)

I believe there is one other quick kill, but uncertain of silence.
small thin blade insert just below the center of ribs, angling up into heart. 
This could cause massive bleed or a heart attack, so it might not kill quietly.

I think carotid slice is the best and easiest to do. Femural is larger, but not usually easily reached(pants can prevent the blade from reaching perfectly.) the muscle of the leg can also slow or divert the blade.
Perfect kill is by the time the pain reaches the brain, the blood is flowing out of the brain with little or none returning.


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## Trick (Jul 22, 2013)

What a wonderfully morose thread! I find it amazing when these topics come up and the discussion is just as casual as talking about how to ride a horse properly. We writers are an odd bunch.... and I love it!

My vote is: Sharp dagger, throats slit. Unless your character is a trained assassin, he's not going to sit around trying to be creative about how to kill two people quietly. He'd just cut some throats and be done with it. Stops blood to the brain and cuts off shouts and screams. Simple. Effective. Don't slip on the blood as you sneak out.

I'd add that I've heard people often underestimate how hard it is to cut a throat, how much force is required and if the killer holds the head in place first the victim will obviously wake up. So, the sharpness of the dagger is a HUGE factor. Ask any professional butcher. Their knives are razor, hair-splitting, silk-slicing sharp.


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## Nihal (Jul 22, 2013)

Now I'm curious to know how much time it would take to someone stabbed through the eye die.

Oh, and I can think in a con of throat slicing, in case it's too deep: Gurgling noise. You're also going to have the cutting sound itself, depending on how quiet is the night in this place these noises can be quite noticeable, not loud enough to wake up but prompting the second victim to roll in his sleep, perhaps startling the character. Still easier, hence, better than heart-stabbing.


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## Steerpike (Jul 22, 2013)

Good comments, all. I suppose I should also mention that the killer is a professor, not someone who fights and/or kills by trade, so it would have to be something easily accomplished by someone without much experience. I suppose throat-slitting is the most likely thing a person would think of.


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## Trick (Jul 22, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Good comments, all. I suppose I should also mention that the killer is a professor, not someone who fights and/or kills by trade, so it would have to be something easily accomplished by someone without much experience. I suppose throat-slitting is the most likely thing a person would think of.



As I said above, it's supposedly quite difficult to cut a throat. I do agree however that it is the most viable choice. If you can, work in the character having learned that doing it requires more force than expected that might help... Unless he's a professor of biology? then he'd just know already. He'd also have a steady hand, most likely.


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## Ankari (Jul 22, 2013)

I've done it with a sheep. You're right, it's harder than you expect, but not in the manner of requiring a certain level of strength. We have been led to believe the throat is a thing of butter and honey. Once you get past that misunderstanding, it's not hard at all.


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## Steerpike (Jul 22, 2013)

More good information. Thanks, guys.

I suspect if the wool is out of the way, it's not much different with a sheep than a person.

This character is a professor of archaeology, so he may not know the best way, but I think slitting the throat is probably the first thing most people would think of. I don't know why I was trying to get too cute with it initially.


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## Trick (Jul 22, 2013)

Ankari said:


> I've done it with a sheep. You're right, it's harder than you expect, but not in the manner of requiring a certain level of strength. We have been led to believe the throat is a thing of butter and honey. Once you get past that misunderstanding, it's not hard at all.



Were you holding the sheep by the top of the head? The character obviously can't do that in this case so I'm asking for educational purposes. I agree though that strength does not really seem to be the issue. It's more the judgement of force from what I've heard. A friend of mine is an avid hunter and in the case of a bad shot, when an animal is alive and suffering, he slits the throat. Apparently, the first time he had to do it required at least three passes. Now he can easily do it in one.

EDIT: 





Steerpike said:


> This character is a professor of archaeology, so he may not know the best way, but I think slitting the throat is probably the first thing most people would think of. I don't know why I was trying to get too cute with it initially.



Pure suggestion, feel free to ignore:

If he has seen the aftermath of ritual killings and perhaps noticed the tell tale markings of a blade dragged across the front of the upper vertebra, in his work with archaeology, he may make a correct assumption: Hard enough to kill quickly and quietly but not so hard that his dagger catches on the bone...


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## ndmellen (Jul 22, 2013)

This is your story, and I don't know nuthin' bout nothin'...but if I may...If you want to go with a slit throat, something to consider is the manner in which he does it. Common fiction and movies depict a slit throat as someone pulling the victims' head back and giving them a red smile. This isn't an entirely accurate way to do it. When you pull someone's head back, you cause the airway/ larynx/ "adam's apple" to protrude out, and will actually stop the blade from cutting into the two carotid arteries.

Press the head forward, chin over the dagger's edge. This will cause the airway to pull back and allow a clean, deep cut.

Maybe i'm just really into the idea, but...If your character is a professor that has never killed before, it almost seems like he would take an analytical approach. The throat is a tough go. Femoral artery, on the other hand...Deep stab, up near the groin, and it'll actually bleed faster than the carotid due to the simple concept of gravity (Seriously, I'm not making that up. This is the reason that you're supposed to elevate a limb when you've cut yourself.)

That could be an awesome scene. He stabs the guy, the guy wakes up, and then ensues a struggle where your MC throws his body over the victim's mouth to smother the screams and hold him down. Reflect on the terror/ disgust/ exhileration that the MC is feeling on his first kill.

Just my thoughts...


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 22, 2013)

If you want to move away from throat cutting, which we see a lot, consider this...

Your professor type may not be ready to overpower his victim, drunk or not. He'd have to be capable of holding a man down with one arm, and keeping the mouth covered, while the other slices across the throat. If I were him, I'd be looking for instant death, not allowing even a fraction of time for a struggle or disturbance. 

Thin blade, under the ear & behind the jaw, thrust inward and upward at a slight angle. Brain stem is severed. Lights out.

A question:
Do you have to kill both quietly or just the first?


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## ndmellen (Jul 22, 2013)

T.A.S, you're absolutely right, but that is a hard, hard thing to pull off, even for someone with experience. Further, on the topic on cutting a throat, it doesn't happen as fast as fiction depicts. Femoral, carotid, or otherwise, the body doesn't drop lifelessly to the floor. The vic has a good minute or so before they bleed out. They may panic and run, or adrenaline may kick in and they attack. Both of these work to your advantage because the heart starts beating heavier and faster, causing more blood to spit out...But like I said, for a good minute or so you have action on your hands.

In thinking about it...maybe the best way to go is a club to the head. There's a crunch, sure, but the vic doesn't struggle. If the sound happens to wake up the other mark he's still going to be too disoriented to respond quickly.


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## ndmellen (Jul 22, 2013)

By crunch, I mean like Gallagher hitting a watermelon.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 22, 2013)

I believe there are 2 in the room & he won't want to wake the other before it's time for his or her own demise. Bashing in skulls with a club is rather noisy I'd think, and not very elegant.

Since this character is a professor with a high level of anatomical knowledge, that should weigh heavily in his choice of technique.


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## Daichungak (Jul 22, 2013)

Cutting the throat you risk opening the windpipe, which is loud.  Cutting the throat, either the front or sides, kills by blood loss which takes time and is extremely messy.  A knife pushed into the base of the neck is the fastest and cleanest way to do it.  A precise and brutal blow to the base of the skull accomplished much the same thing.


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## Steerpike (Jul 23, 2013)

This is all good information. Maybe the character can even mull this over during the scene. Another wrinkle I should have mentioned, because I now realize it will affect things, is that the character doesn't really want to kill these students. He has to. He's somewhat fond of them both, and it's a rather sudden thing, so there is no poison on hand or anything like that. Even without the change of waking one of the two, I don't see him bashing in heads. He'll try to think of the most effective, and also least painful way to do it, to the extent that is possible.


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## Devor (Jul 23, 2013)

Apparently, a good place to kill someone is by going into the brain through the nose.  It shuts down the part of the brain that would react.

If he's a professional, he's not going to risk having them wake up.  He's going to do something like hold chloroform over their mouths while he does it.


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## Steerpike (Jul 23, 2013)

Devor said:


> Apparently, a good place to kill someone is by going into the brain through the nose.  It shuts down the part of the brain that would react.
> 
> If he's a professional, he's not going to risk having them wake up.  He's going to do something like hold chloroform over their mouths while he does it.



That's an interesting approach. Maybe there is some archaeological tool laying around he can use.

He's not a professional killer, and there's no chloroform or similar material around. It's sort of a spur of the moment event out at a dig site.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 23, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Maybe the character can even mull this over during the scene.


That would make for a very interesting scene.



Steerpike said:


> Another wrinkle I should have mentioned, because I now realize it will affect things, is that the character doesn't really want to kill these students. He has to. He's somewhat fond of them both, and it's a rather sudden thing, so there is no poison on hand or anything like that. Even without the change of waking one of the two, I don't see him bashing in heads. He'll try to think of the most effective, and also least painful way to do it, to the extent that is possible.


So the need for efficiency isn't cruelty but rather mercy. I'd have the character mull this over as well, deciding the best method. It could be very powerful, trying to detach himself from the conflicting emotions of the moment in order to be as merciful as possible. 

Does the professor have to use something in the room or does he have some time to prepare? Also, he's a professor of what exactly? His exact expertise should play a major role in his choice of method and weapon.


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## Steerpike (Jul 23, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Does the professor have to use something in the room or does he have some time to prepare? Also, he's a professor of what exactly? His exact expertise should play a major role in his choice of method and weapon.



He'd be able to prepare throughout the day, but options are somewhat limited. They're at a dig site far from the nearest town or village. He's a professor of archaeology, and these are students of his helping with the dig. So he'd have to resort to items you might reasonably find around a dig site. He has a dagger, but apart from that it would be limited to archaeological tools, or something crude like a heavy stone or a piece of wood used as a club. The idea of bashing the students to death with a heavy object won't appeal to him at all.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 23, 2013)

As a professor of archaeology, where does his knowledge of anatomy stem from?


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## Steerpike (Jul 23, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> As a professor of archaeology, where does his knowledge of anatomy stem from?



He doesn't have extensive knowledge, but in this particular world a professor in one discipline would be expected to have a decent level of knowledge of the state of knowledge in general, and so an archaeology professor would know the basics of what is going on in the field of biology and vice versa. But he wouldn't be an expert in it by any means.


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## Butterfly (Jul 23, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> He'd be able to prepare throughout the day, but options are somewhat limited. They're at a dig site far from the nearest town or village. He's a professor of archaeology, and these are students of his helping with the dig. So he'd have to resort to items you might reasonably find around a dig site. He has a dagger, but apart from that it would be limited to archaeological tools, or something crude like a heavy stone or a piece of wood used as a club. The idea of bashing the students to death with a heavy object won't appeal to him at all.



A machete perhaps. Used to cut roots and undergrowth and overgrown areas on digs. A decent thwack to the neck area or spinal area might do it...

Archtools : Archaeology Excavation and Digging Tools For all your archaeological tool kit needs. You might find a few things surprising.


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## SeverinR (Jul 23, 2013)

Club, baton, brick to head note;
If laying on a pillow or mattress, the softness might absorb enough of the blow to be painful not fatal in one shot.
A loud scream will be heard if not killed in first blow.
Claw part of hammer might do the job, but still has to be a good clean blow and enough damage to prevent the scream.
Basically none of us are as good at driving a nail or hitting a baseball as we think, it might not be a perfect hit but 10-15% of the time, even more if a pillow or other obstacle could influence the strike. 
Devor is right, you want to cover all the bases. If their drunk simply knock them out with more drugs.
If just sleeping, the hand over the mouth would trigger the fight/flight reflex of a sober person.  
I would clarify Devor though, he would use chloroform prior to the kill to ensure silence not at the same time. Maybe even use it on both prior to kiling the first.

Also if there is a chance of someone finding the bodies, the least amount of visible damage would be best, to allow the person to think they are simply passed out or asleep. Gray matter where the head use to be doesn't leave one to think the victims are in a blissfull slumber.


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## Asura Levi (Jul 25, 2013)

You could add some poison, very deadly poison to the blade. You know, just in case...


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## Filk (Jul 26, 2013)

Stuff a thick rag in the mouth and make sure to cut both sides of the throat - the victim will bleed out much faster that way. In terms of the person crying out to wake up the other or cause alarm, you can tell that tale however you wish. It would be believable to have these students deep in sleep due to the physical toil of a dig and traveling that they are unaccustomed to.


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## Nobby (Aug 7, 2013)

I am really quite worried now...

Then again, British commandos in the second world war were trained to cover the mouth and stab under the ribs to the heart with the fairburn dagger. This site is frankly terrifying Fairbairn - USE OF THE KNIFE.


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