# Fantasy Swearing



## DragonOfTheAerie (Sep 17, 2018)

So, this is something that's not an immediate problem right now but is something i've been thinking about: how do you have characters swear in a fantasy novel? Assuming you want to include that. 

generally, I really hate it when authors make up swearwords or have characters swear by an imaginary deity. I don't know why, but it doesn't have remotely the same effect and is annoying. 

But, would the swears popular in our world (i mean basic stuff like f*ck, sh*t, not necessarily religion related oaths to do with god or hell etc) be too out of place in a fantasy novel with no connection to our world (that is not a portal fantasy) 

But, would your world's culture find the same things vulgar or obscene? For example, if you wrote a culture with more relaxed customs about sex, would sex related words be considered as "dirty" as they are in our world? If you would like to explore different cultural norms, how do you work out swearing without it being annoying? How do you avoid awkward stuff like "By the great god Azbghffgssthn's toenail!" or something?


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## Orc Knight (Sep 18, 2018)

For me it depends on a lot of things, though I am prone to using modern swears (some that aren't as modern as we think anyways). Can thank aSoIaF for that one. Usually easier to use them with the 'evil' races. Or at least the ones without sticks shoved up their arses. I am as also prone to varying and have spent many an hour looking up old and archaic swears or ones in different languages (merde!). I am also partial to having characters swear on deities body parts,"Lolth's tits!" being a common saying among my drow characters, when not going to the nether regions of the goddess. Kind of borrowed that from Dragon Age too.

As for the popular modern swears, as my world is a sort of reflection of the world anyways, they show up and don't bother me overmuch. But some of my cultures I do have to work a little harder at it. Course, still end up with things like "Griffon shit" and other such. Swearing usually isn't overly imaginative at times, so it seems likely to go for the culture's lowest common denominator and the crassest it can be. Good points to explore it: Sailors, Pirates, Law Enforcement, Military, Farming Communities and the like. The highfalutin places might be a bit more complex.


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## CupofJoe (Sep 18, 2018)

It depends of context but I'm somewhere between not minding and actually liking made up swear words. 
I use several I learned from TV in every day use [Smeg, Naff, Frack] because sometimes you want the emphasis of a swear word but want to actually swear.
In my writing I try to use generic cuss words or phrases [by the gods!, Torak's teeth! ] but I'll use real swear words if the context merits it.
I find that any phrases used too often just get in in the way of the story. Having a character use a swear or curse all the time just slows down the dialogue. Unless that is in itself part of the story... the swearing sailor with a group of nuns type of thing....


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## psychotick (Sep 18, 2018)

Hi,

Yes my characters swear. I try to use period correct (ish) terms. Dung, piss, balls, shite etc. (Not sure if this forum will allow me to post them so you may have to guess at what was written.) I also use some odd terms like piss pot and muck spout. But I am writing near steam punk so the words fit.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Miles Lacey (Sep 18, 2018)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> So, this is something that's not an immediate problem right now but is something i've been thinking about: how do you have characters swear in a fantasy novel? Assuming you want to include that.
> 
> generally, I really hate it when authors make up swearwords or have characters swear by an imaginary deity. I don't know why, but it doesn't have remotely the same effect and is annoying.
> 
> But, would the swears popular in our world (i mean basic stuff like f*ck, sh*t, not necessarily religion related oaths to do with god or hell etc) be too out of place in a fantasy novel with no connection to our world (that is not a portal fantasy)



I was born and raised in a predominately working class neighbourhood where the use of the word fuck (and variations thereof) was sprinkled liberally through their everyday speech.  In that context the word fuck is not a swear word.  However, outside of that context, it is a swear word and in many places you can end up being arrested if you use it in public.

For something to be considered as swearing it needs to have shock value.  The use of the word "Frack!" is effective in _Battlestar Galatica _because we all know it's a substitute for "Fuck!".  Frack was used to get around U.S Federal Communications Commission regulations that forbade the use of the f-word on TV shows back in 1978.  Another example is the word "Shite!".  We know what the word means and it's that which gives the word its power to shock.

Unless the fantasy swearing has a clear link to similar swearing in our world then there's really no point in using swearing in fantasy in my opinion. 



DragonOfTheAerie said:


> But, would your world's culture find the same things vulgar or obscene? For example, if you wrote a culture with more relaxed customs about sex, would sex related words be considered as "dirty" as they are in our world? If you would like to explore different cultural norms, how do you work out swearing without it being annoying? How do you avoid awkward stuff like "By the great god Azbghffgssthn's toenail!" or something?



In my work in progress I use pretty much the same swear words as used in the real world.  Even in countries that are noted for being sexually promiscuous (of which New Zealand is always ranked amongst the top three) sexually based swear words are still considered offensive and are generally avoided in polite company.  Ditto for my more sexually liberated world.


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## goldhawk (Sep 18, 2018)

"Hell's Fire, Mother Night, and may the Darkness be Merciful"

Anne Bishop in her _Black Jewel_ trilogy, invented her own cuss phrases. The magic in her books came from Darkness, so cuss words are based on it.

The English use bodily functions for their cuss words and the French use religious words. What is considered a cuss word is heavily depended on the culture. The words your character use would also depend on their culture. You should make them up as you are developing the culture and not add them as an after thought.


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## skip.knox (Sep 18, 2018)

As the answers here indicate, there's every sort of response to every sort of fantasy swearing. Your best bet is to work out what sounds best to your own ears. Regardless of the words chosen, you can give some thought to the context of cursing.

There's the I-hit-my-thumb-with-a-hammer cursing. That's going to short and to the point, probably monosyllabic. At another extreme, there's swearing an oath, which will usually involve invoking names of gods.

There's angry swearing, which can become colorful and elaborate. There's blurt cursing, as an expression of surprise or dismay. There's a distinction to be made between swearing and obscenity, especially when the cursing is directed at someone.

Different characters will swear differently. Some will swear constantly and repetitively. Some will swear only rarely, the kind of cursing that brings the whole room to a stop. A character might have his own peculiar cursing vocabulary, good for out-of-towners.

IOW, swearing isn't just a thing, it's many things. Plenty of room in there to be mundane as well as inventive.


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## Steerpike (Sep 18, 2018)

There are plenty of fantasy novels that use the typical real-world swear words (damn, f***, sh**, etc). That works just fine in a fantasy setting, in my opinion. I don't mind invented swear words, even those based on an imaginary deity (Crom!), so long as they flow well in the narrative and don't seem hackneyed or like the author is trying too hard. 

I also don't mind swear words that tie into the history or backstory of the fantasy world, because it stands to reason that such things might be drawn upon for cursing.


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## Demesnedenoir (Sep 18, 2018)

I'm not particular either way. I always found things like motherf'r stupid (despite the fact I use it... huh)... I once looked at a friend who was pissed off at me, after he said this, and pointed out: yes, and so have you, so long as you don't mean "our" mothers. Ended his being pissed anyhow. I made the choice not to use F in my fantasy, just the same as I don't use "okay". And if I did use F, I'd use it sparingly (unlike in real life) because it becomes meaningless. In fact, most swearing is meaningless dialogue anyhow. I doubt anybody ever really considered a novel bad because it didn't use the F-bomb enough. 

Shit, on the other hand, is universally useful, but I replaced bull with horse, because cattle are rare to nonexistent on the island... and to be blunt, if you want real vile, you want pig shit. That stuff is flat nasty, heh heh. Is there a culture that doesn't use excrement and urine for expletives in some manner? 

I will take good made up profanity and sayings over modern any day... but, whatever fits the world.

And of course at this point I must insert Monty Python--

Fornicate the Penguin!


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## FifthView (Sep 18, 2018)

This reminds me of a Carlin bit.

There are various broad types of swear.

As other have said, those relating to bodily functions, body parts or sex probably won't cause a ripple in a fantasy setting—at least if your characters are humanoid. For some reason, I have difficulty imagining a dragon character saying those things. Same with a sprite, although I think it'd be funny coming from a sprite, and I might like it. But the main point is this: human types of characters (at least) will likely have many of the same drives, body parts and bodily functions as we, and there's no great stretch believing they'd have the words for those as well.

Then there are cultural types of swear, like those based on some religious figure or concept. These are trickier. I think _d*mn_ would probably get an easy pass in a fantasy world. _H-E-double hockey sticks _might not work so well if the world has no concept of hockey, but the word it spells is likely to be fine in most cases. These two are broad concepts. Here's also where you tend to find more fantasy phrases like _By Minerva's ****!_  or _Xpltl's b****! _ This makes some sense, given that a fantasy world's myths, lore, and religion will have important figures we don't have on Earth. (Well, we have a Minerva.) If some figure is normally revered, then using that figure's name in a less-than-respectful manner might be a type of swear, and this isn't altogether different from what we do on Earth.

There are pejoratives, epithets, we use on Earth that might work okay in a fantasy setting. Those based on comparisons with animals are likely to be fine if those animals also exist in the fantasy world. An ass is an ass is an ass. A dog is a dog is a dog. However, some other words used to denigrate fellow humans have a very cultural, historical origin on Earth and wouldn't work well in a secondary world fantasy. I won't spell out those, but you probably can imagine the words I mean.


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## Demesnedenoir (Sep 18, 2018)

Kind of following FV... being called a witch in most cultures would be far worse than a female dog. In a world where the gods are real and so is damnation? Damn you to X is about as bad as it gets. Where does F-you compare to that? It doesn't.

So then I quote a Johnny cash song...

Damn your eyes.

Think I actually used that at one point in Eve of Snows, LOL.


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## FifthView (Sep 18, 2018)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> But, would your world's culture find the same things vulgar or obscene? For example, if you wrote a culture with more relaxed customs about sex, would sex related words be considered as "dirty" as they are in our world? If you would like to explore different cultural norms, how do you work out swearing without it being annoying?



As for this...well, it's just a matter of knowing your culture. Right? One I didn't mention before, _bastard_, is probably quite fine to use in most human cultures, but I can imagine a fantasy culture in which marriage doesn't exist and all the people engage in free love. No one knows one's father. In such a case, the word wouldn't have the same sort of pointy end that it would have in a different culture.


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## FifthView (Sep 18, 2018)

There's another class I had forgotten; but since my mind is turning toward these colorful things....

There are those examples which focus on social class, profession, region, and this sort is the kind that can add a lot of flavor to your world.

For some reason, I have an easier time conceiving of derogatory epithets the higher class might have for the lower class:  _sh*t-shoveller_, _lice-mate_, etc. What sorts of similar things might a denizen of the lower quarter use for the wealthy elites?

I can imagine a military sort: _boot scrubber_. Maybe the worst, dumbest sort of soldier would be relegated to this kind of duty, and the term has been adopted as a common insult.

Regional denigrations will be as varied as fantasy world maps. What do the southerners call the northerners in your fantasy nation? What would your nation's inhabitants call the citizens of another nation? These questions open up so much delving into cultural differences and the history of your world. We have plenty of examples in our own.

*Edit: *Maybe sometimes these can be used more generally even when not specifically targeted at the group or class that inspired them in the first place. For instance, an arrogant general might use _boot-scrubber_ for all the poor, not just fellow soldiers. A character might use the regional put-down for anyone, not only those from that region.

_[Edit#2: not sure if these qualify as swears, but still...]_


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## Heliotrope (Sep 18, 2018)

I like when writer's make up their own swear words in fantasy. It has to suit the world, IMO. 

Genitalia is fun to play with (when inventing words.... omg.) 

I have read words like balls, bags, or other more common words for female organs that for some reason don't feel out of place in a fantasy setting. 

Sh*t is not my favourite in a fantasy.... it feels out of place to me. But my all time favourite is "Holy witch piss!" (which wasn't from a fantasy, but from my Czech father in law). 

You can also find hilarious swears in old books or Shakespeare plays which I think would do nicely in a fantasy setting: 

* “Away, you starvelling, you elf-skin, you dried neat’s-tongue, bull’s-pizzle, you stock-fish!”*

*“Away, you three-inch fool! “

“Villain, I have done thy mother” -Titus Andronicus

*


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## FifthView (Sep 18, 2018)

Heliotrope said:


> I like when writer's make up their own swear words in fantasy. It has to suit the world, IMO.
> 
> Genitalia is fun to play with (when inventing words.... omg.)
> 
> ...



This reminds me of the Viking and Scottish flyting from days of yore.

Or this: From The Flyting of Dunbar and Kennedy | InTranslation

Yep. Ye old timey rap battle.


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## Heliotrope (Sep 18, 2018)

FifthView said:


> Yep. Ye old timey rap battle.



Yes! This is what I was thinking. An old time rap battle. I love how even rappers are just doing something that has already been around for possibly a thousand years (I can totally see Socrates and Plato doing the same thing over some wine.....)


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## Devor (Sep 18, 2018)

Swearing is a question of tone, not content.  For example, plenty of stories have been told about slavery and the south which don't use racial slurs, but then you see a book like Huck Finn and realize that at least for many people that kind of language would have been everywhere.  Plenty of people curse all the time, and plenty don't - the question is ten percent about who you're writing about and ninety percent about the kind of readers you're looking for.

I'm not usually a fan of swearing in writing, which just means my quality threshold is higher for it.  Unless you're approaching Game of Thrones quality, I will probably find it a little jarring.  Then again, I don't really count words like damn and hell as cursing, but I know that's just me.

I don't like words like friggin' and frack in a fantasy (modern-day, okay).  I'm really put off by the fake blasphemy expressions.

I'd rather see a bit more creativity and immersion put into the way characters talk all around, and that includes the way people insult one another.


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## Orc Knight (Sep 19, 2018)

Devor said:


> I don't like words like friggin' and frack in a fantasy (modern-day, okay). I'm really put off by the fake blasphemy expressions.
> 
> I'd rather see a bit more creativity and immersion put into the way characters talk all around, and that includes the way people insult one another.



Friggin' and Frack seem more sci-fi to me, as they did kind of have their start there. Frag too, which tends to come after the invention of grenades. I do kind of consider blasphemy a decent angle to go at. In a world where one can at least get good communication from the deities it's got a certain feel of brass about it. Sometimes a little foolish unless they've got their own deity covering for 'em, though chances are they do. And if not, even better for them. Especially if they survive the thunderbolt.

I do at least try to make some effort between some of the races. Dragons tend to invoke elemental sort of stuff and scales and tails and the teeth of their Elder. Griffons insult everyone, mostly by calling them prey. Then trying to eat them. A compliment from them amounts to 'You'd be a good hunt'. The humanoids tend to have the usual run, including the modern stuff.


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## bdcharles (Sep 19, 2018)

My characters do use the occasional contemporary swear words (your F-bombs, your S words) even though the setting is alternate world / historical~ish, because I wanted to make it a bit more accessible. That being said, I follow @HaggardHawks on Twitter, and from there learned of the delightful "by the mousefoot!" which I totally need to steal. I think how your chars swear will feed alot into the sense of "when" it all takes place. 

As others said, you could use curse words to reveal your world, a bit like how you name your currency. My guys sometimes invoke something called the Wrath - go jump in the Wrath! I don't know what in the Wrath it is, etc - and then we later get to find out more about this Wrath.


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## Penpilot (Sep 19, 2018)

What curses my characters use depends on the feeling l want to convey. There's a different feel between using an f-bomb and a made up curse. 

If memory serves, Scott Lynch's Gentilmen Bastards series makes good use of f-bombs and more contemporary curse words quite well, and their use conveyed a certain tone to the story that made up curses just can't.


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## Laurence (Sep 19, 2018)

As someone who's surrounded by swear words day in, day out, I find the absence of them slightly odd. If someone writes a roguish character that doesn't swear, it makes me think that the author is putting their own comfort / willingness to be accepted before the needs of the story.

That said, if the book is obviously middle grade from the get go, I don't mind whatsoever. Didn't consider it once during Harry Potter (except that I hate the word git, which Rowling is obsessed with).

In my own WIP I've tried to lose them wherever possible, but have one or two characters who do use them when truly frustrated—in what I think are pretty realistic places that don't throw you out of the story but keep you submerged instead. I think the frustration part is key here, because they're reacting too quickly to think of a poetic verse about an issue. If a character of mine is insulting someone for fun, I would use a more accurate description of the victim.


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## Insolent Lad (Sep 19, 2018)

When it comes to heavy-duty swearing or profanity, I admittedly sometimes find myself side-stepping the whole thing by saying 'So-and-so swore a great oath' or 'Such-a-person cursed vehemently' or something along those lines. My characters rarely go beyond the occasional 'damn' or 'by Jov' or that sort of relatively mild thing. And yes, that is 'Jov,' not Jove.


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## Ewolf20 (Sep 20, 2018)

My characters are bugs so they more or less commonly use dung in place of  f##k or c##p. So "gosh dung it".


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## Rkcapps (Sep 24, 2018)

Who's your audience? how will they react? what would they expect to see?


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## Devor (Nov 8, 2018)

I wanted to come back to this because I've been thinking about it a little more lately.  I think my problem with fantasy swearing is that it's not usually fantasy swearing, it's instead just a thin euphemistic guise for modern English swearing.

Swearing varies a lot in different languages, and also has throughout the history of any one language. There's no reason to think swearing in your fantasy world has to look at all like it does in ours.  I had a roommate from the Ukraine once who complained that his language didn't have enough swear wears so people always cursed in English or in Russian, where he used to say "swearing is like its own language."

I don't think I've seen a very good example of swearing that like I was in another world.  But I do think I've seen some that have put me in _another place_, if not another world, and I've seen some that have, for lack of a better phrase, felt like kids or teenagers doing a bad job of being subtle or clever about cursing in front of their peers.


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## Demesnedenoir (Nov 8, 2018)

Devor said:


> I wanted to come back to this because I've been thinking about it a little more lately.  I think my problem with fantasy swearing is that it's not usually fantasy swearing, it's instead just a thin euphemistic guise for modern English swearing.
> 
> Swearing varies a lot in different languages, and also has throughout the history of any one language. There's no reason to think swearing in your fantasy world has to look at all like it does in ours.  I had a roommate from the Ukraine once who complained that his language didn't have enough swear wears so people always cursed in English or in Russian, where he used to say "swearing is like its own language."
> 
> I don't think I've seen a very good example of swearing that like I was in another world.  But I do think I've seen some that have put me in _another place_, if not another world, and I've seen some that have, for lack of a better phrase, felt like kids or teenagers doing a bad job of being subtle or clever about cursing in front of their peers.



Much of the trouble with swearing/taboo/offensive words when trying to create them in a fantasy culture is that if the swearing actually takes you to another world... people won’t get that the character is swearing nor understand what the hell they mean without exposition... It’d be as bad as “get ye to a nunnery” in Shakespeare. What was the word used in a chidlren’s book in Quebec? Tabernacle? The author was French, and well, that word was a mistake in Quebec, they had to pull the book. Apparently it’s as useful in Quebec as the F-word is in the US, but if a character I was reading said that in a fantasy novel? Well, WTF might well be my response, along with a chuckle. Keeping swears close to the target audience’s vernacular might be good.

I have a good time stringing together fantasy cusses. Son of a turd sucking toad poker just flew from my fingers a couple years ago, and it stuck in a short story.


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## skip.knox (Nov 8, 2018)

I learned from Harry Turtledove (well, from his books) that the French tend to swear in religious terms while Americans (and English) tend to swear in anatomical terms. That was my first insight into the cultural differences bound up in swearing.

I also point out that swearing is different from cursing--a difference rather unfortunately lost among moderns.


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## Orc Knight (Nov 8, 2018)

skip.knox said:


> I also point out that swearing is different from cursing--a difference rather unfortunately lost among moderns.



Doesn't cursing involve more witches?


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## Steerpike (Nov 8, 2018)

skip.knox said:


> I learned from Harry Turtledove (well, from his books) that the French tend to swear in religious terms while Americans (and English) tend to swear in anatomical terms. That was my first insight into the cultural differences bound up in swearing.
> 
> I also point out that swearing is different from cursing--a difference rather unfortunately lost among moderns.



I met Turtledove at WorldCon this year. Very nice guy.


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## skip.knox (Nov 8, 2018)

Orc Knight said:


> Doesn't cursing involve more witches?



Not at all. Anyone can curse anyone. There are some truly awesome one from ancient times. They can get quite specific.

A witch probably doesn't need to curse, since a witch is more likely to work a spell or administer a potion. 

Since we are (okay, I am) drawing distinctions, I'll distinguish as well between a curse, swearing, and an obscenity. 

One swears to tell the whole truth (etc) in court. That's swearing. Because one traditionally swore on a Bible and by God, Anabaptists refused to do so, which meant they refused several times of civic obligations. Swearing is a most serious matter.

Curses are serious as well, but they are outside the law. Curses typically (but not always) involve invoking one or more divinities that will ensure that the person will suffer the consequences of the (sometimes distressingly specific) curse should the other person do or fail to do some particular thing.

An obscenity (which I think is really what we are talking about) is merely a word or phrase intended to shock. There really ought to be a fourth category, for which I would use the phrase "dirty word", that is used primarily as emphasis or even as punctuation or exclamation. Not intended to shock, though it may offend some.

I do think authors ought to be aware of the differences. And I fully agree that it's really difficult to introduce any of these in a fantasy world. Or, for that matter, in historical fiction more than a couple of centuries old. The best practictioner, imo, was Patrick O'Brian, who managed to hit the right notes not only historically but socially, without ever seeming quaint or obscure.


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## Grant_Evermoore (Nov 13, 2018)

This is one of those times that I wish I could have taken that course in taboo language when I got my BA in Linguistics.

Yes, taboo language varies greatly by culture, which it means it also varies by time period. The words that are taboo today were not always so; and words that we are free with today were not always so free. "Gay" as an epithet is a good example of this kind of shift. We are much more comfortable today with words like "shit" and "damn" but much less comfortable with racist, sexist, or ableist slurs.

Your fantasy world can have scatalogical terms (eg, "shit"), sexual terms ("bugger", "fuck"), or terms insulting one's parentage (eg, "bastard"). We all know about those. But there are also terms deemed blasphemous, profane or heretical in a religious sense. I don't just mean words like "damn" or "hell" which have specific religious meanings, but also:

zounds (short for "God's wounds")
sblood (short for "God's blood")
strewth (short for "God's truth")
crikey (short for "Christ, kill me")
blimey (short for "God blind me")
In some cultures, there is a greater or lesser tolerance for comparing people to animals (eg, words like "rat" or "cow" or "bitch" in English, words like "fressen" [to eat like an animal] or "Schweinhund" in German). We also get insulting and impolite words that denigrate someone's background or profession ("villain" used to mean "serf" and "hussy" used to mean "housewife," for instance).

Your swearing should basically reflect whatever topic is considered most offensive to discuss in public. You could use your imagination here. It could be about what people eat, how they dress, who they marry, what gods they worship. Me, I think swearing in fantasy novels is great. It says a lot about your worldbuilding when you reveal which things are not said in polite company, and which social groups are powerful enough to decide which words are excluded. Is it the clergy? Then blasphemy. The aristocracy? Then scatology and parentage. The wizards? Then lack of magical talent. It could even be a sign of a certain group's waxing or waning influence that certain words are now (or no longer) taboo.


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## toomanyhobbies (Nov 13, 2018)

I feel like a lot of it depends on the language of the particular book, doesn't it? I mean, if it's written in a very lofty, flowery or old-fashioned style and the characters' speech is the same, I don't think that some modern curse words would fit any better than modern slang words like "Dude" (that may be an extreme example). But when it's written in a more modern or casual tone (regardless of the time period) then in my experience, many modern words often find their way in without seeming out of place at all.


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## A. E. Lowan (Nov 14, 2018)

In our urban fantasy series we have a couple of potty mouths, one worse than the other. As a result, our first book, _Faerie Rising_, has 51 uses of the f-bomb and the s-word in three languages, English, French, and Spanish.

On the other hand we have a character who's strongest curse is "Blast!" This amuses the hell out of me.

It really depends on the characters, the setting, the tone, and what feels right to you as a writer.


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## Grant_Evermoore (Nov 14, 2018)

toomanyhobbies said:


> I feel like a lot of it depends on the language of the particular book, doesn't it? I mean, if it's written in a very lofty, flowery or old-fashioned style and the characters' speech is the same, I don't think that some modern curse words would fit any better than modern slang words like "Dude" (that may be an extreme example). But when it's written in a more modern or casual tone (regardless of the time period) then in my experience, many modern words often find their way in without seeming out of place at all.


I think what you're saying, and pardon me if I'm putting words in your mouth, is that too-modern language can be immersion-breaking. Your fantasy character might use a word like "fuck" because it's an English word like all the other English words in your book; but a term like "motherfucker" or "asshat" would stand out as being too of-this-world.


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## skip.knox (Nov 14, 2018)

That's one problem I have with Scott Lynch's book, _The Lies of Locke Lamorra_. All the characters--and I do mean all of them--have this arch way of speaking that reminds me of nothing so much as Goldfinger. Then there'll will be some vulgarity dropped in, and it's as out of place as a parachute. Imagine if Goldfinger's line were: "no, you asshat, I expect you to die."


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## FifthView (Nov 15, 2018)

toomanyhobbies said:


> But when it's written in a more modern or casual tone (regardless of the time period) then in my experience, many modern words often find their way in without seeming out of place at all.



I find I can't keep reading anything that uses a very modern idiom in a much older time period, even a fake time period from an invented world if that world/period is meant to have an older feel.

I'm a huge enemy of "It's translation!" excuses.

An exception might be something that is obviously meant to be light or comedic, perhaps a farce, although I think it'd have to be very good in other respects. I'd still have to fight to get over the modern usages; so, basically, I'm saying I'd have to be distracted by other things capturing my attention.


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## Grant_Evermoore (Nov 15, 2018)

When I write fantasy I try to avoid immersion-breaking words of all sorts, not just profanity. For instance, I avoid words like "okay" because it just doesn't sound right in a fantasy story. To me. Your mileage may vary, etc.


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## Steerpike (Nov 15, 2018)

Grant_Evermoore said:


> When I write fantasy I try to avoid immersion-breaking words of all sorts, not just profanity. For instance, I avoid words like "okay" because it just doesn't sound right in a fantasy story. To me. Your mileage may vary, etc.



To me, immersions depends on reader expectations as set by the author. If you’re reading Tolkien, modern idioms etc would be a problem. If you’re reading Glen Cook’s fantasy/hard-boiled detective books, not so much.


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## Grant_Evermoore (Nov 15, 2018)

Sure. Obviously your word palette is going to be governed by your genre and tone. My current novel is high fantasy, so those are the limits I set for myself.


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## Gurkhal (Nov 19, 2018)

As mentioned genre wil influence the swearing. In a high fantasy swearing may seem out of place while in a grimdark story harsh swearing seems like to be wrong if its not included. But I would probably use real world swearing as made-up cursing don't carry the same punch as atually cursing does to the reader.


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## Evaine (Nov 20, 2018)

The writers of Elfquest had a problem with their characters in that they didn't really have a religion to blaspheme against, and they liked sex just fine, so they said things like "Owl pellets!" when they needed to swear.
And Katherine Kurtz started off her Deryni books with characters (especially her hero Morgan) using the word "Khadasa!" when they needed to swear - and then gradually phasing the use of the word out over later books.  I think she said it had too many syllables to make a good swear word, and it didn't quite fit with the Deryni backstory as she developed it, either.


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## Miles Lacey (Nov 20, 2018)

The problem with swearing in the real world is that the words that might cause great offence in some countries may cause none in another.  Even within a particular society a word can be offensive or harmless depending on context.  A case in point is the word coconut.

Coconut is used to describe a certain food item that grows on trees but it is also a derogatory term for Pacific Islanders here in New Zealand.  Thus swearing doesn't necessarily have to involve the words we in the English speaking world would associate with swearing.  It just needs to be understood as offensive in the context in which it is used.

I think that being too clever by inventing an entirely new word for fantasy swearing tends to backfire as people have no idea what it means.  

My approach is to use derogatory references that are linked to a person's smell, looks, status (or perceived status) or parentage.  I also find that sexual and bodily function references work well.

Think of what would be taboo or likely to get people upset in both the real world AND the fantasy world and use it as the basis of a swear word or derogatory reference.  For example I  my work in progress ..

Eunuch's Penis - to describe something or someone that is useless.
Robed Whore - To describe a mage 
Mammoth Turd
Conjurer - a term of abuse when used about a mage.  It's like calling them incompetent or not up to the job.


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## Firefly (Nov 21, 2018)

Personally, I find real-world swear words super distracting and annoying in fantasy, but I'm not sure if I hate them because they feel un-historical or if the reaction is just because I don't like swear words and want another reason to be annoyed. In either case, they really mess with the tone of the book for me, so I vastly prefer when the author takes the effort to think of something that fits the milieu of their story.
There are definitely some bad examples, so I can understand why someone would be wary of coming up with their own terms, but when done well they blend right into the story and feel like a natural part of the world. (Scott Westerfield is really good at this. Every time I read one of his books the character's speech patterns get stuck in my head.)
I also wouldn't say it's impossible to come up with things that the same bite as actual l swear words. It can be done, but the words used need to have meaning. You can't just come up with a random syllable that fits into the same grammatical place as the S-word and expect it to have the same power.
Not that you necessarily want it to. Sometimes You want the emphasis without making things sound incredibly vulgar or taboo, and that can be achieved pretty easily by using milder words. Some that I've seen recently are rot, storm/storming, and blighted.


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## Ireth (Nov 21, 2018)

My merfolk use terms like "muck-sucking bottom-feeder" as insults.


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## Orc Knight (Nov 22, 2018)

Heh, might as well call 'em carp.


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## skip.knox (Nov 22, 2018)

Orc Knight said:


> Heh, might as well call 'em carp.


Now, now, we'll have no carping around here.


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## FifthView (Nov 22, 2018)

skip.knox said:


> Now, now, we'll have no carping around here.



Rather, carpe diem.


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## skip.knox (Nov 22, 2018)

Fish of the day?


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## rktho (Nov 23, 2018)

I use made-up ones, but I can only come up with a good fantasy swear once in a blue moon. The best I have are shnat (basically, sh*t) and barschut (dammit) which are from separate languages, so only my bilingual characters use both regularly. On a side note, I have a character named Javuk who screws up so often people just call him Barschut-Javuk because that's what they yell whenever he messes something up. I really want to be able to create swears for a few specific insults. Like when someone insinuates that someone's laying mother and sitting mother aren't the same dragon. Or an insulting way to refer to one's cloaca and another to refer to their tail (basically, splitting a** into two separate words.)


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## Rosemary Tea (May 29, 2021)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Much of the trouble with swearing/taboo/offensive words when trying to create them in a fantasy culture is that if the swearing actually takes you to another world... people won’t get that the character is swearing nor understand what the hell they mean without exposition... It’d be as bad as “get ye to a nunnery” in Shakespeare. What was the word used in a chidlren’s book in Quebec? Tabernacle? The author was French, and well, that word was a mistake in Quebec, they had to pull the book. Apparently it’s as useful in Quebec as the F-word is in the US, but if a character I was reading said that in a fantasy novel? Well, WTF might well be my response, along with a chuckle. Keeping swears close to the target audience’s vernacular might be good.


That's exactly my problem with fantasy cuss words. I've got an MC in a fantasy world who very readily drops cuss words, and a character who's mostly clean spoken but will, when seriously ticked off, let loose with the foulest language they've got. Not only would f-bombs be a bit out of place in the world building, I feel they're not strong enough. This is, to my mind, a culture that would have even more colorful language available, and more levels of cussing, than the English language can provide. Saying "fuck" or "shit" or anything with equivalent shock value would be mid level cussing. The highest levels would be many times fouler. There's no way to approximate it in English. But that's the language I've got to work with.

In a scene where a character goes on a really foul mouthed tirade, I settled for having her scream, "Dammit!" and "fuck that!" followed by, "she let out a string of the foulest words she knew." The foulest words she knows, and is saying, are the really, _really_ bad ones.

But, pursuant to what posters in this thread have pointed out, those cuss words don't exactly fit the culture. It's a fairly sex positive culture, although I'm not sure that eliminates "fuck" as a strong cuss word. That word has existed in English, in its current form and range of meanings, at least since the late Middle Ages, through periods of English history that were not particularly prudish. "Dammit" is even more out of place, because they don't have a concept of hell as we understand it. What I'm trying to get at is that the character is using words that have an equivalent shock value to "fuck" or "damn." Translating the intent if not the specific language.


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## A. E. Lowan (May 29, 2021)

One thing to remember about language is that our oldest words tend to have something to do with bodily functions. "Merde" dates back to ancient Rome, as do words for genitals and intercourse and blasphemy. They exist for eons in much the same form, and we take delight in using them. So I say, if you're going to use them, then go for the gold.


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## Chasejxyz (May 29, 2021)

I use various swear words, generally when characters are pushed to a certain point; I feel that a well-placed "what the fuck" can be very evocative, as sometimes you're just in a situation where your mind can't really comprehend what's going on, there's too many complicated feelings, and all that you can really think, truly, is "what the fuck." A beta reader did comment, though "do birds even fuck? Would they use another word?" Which made me laugh for a really long time because I never considered it, and, yeah, in a society that is (culturally) predominantly magic talking birds, they probably would have different words since the mechanics are so different...but already I have footnotes explaining unique words/concepts in this culture, which would mean I would need one for the bird f word. There would have to be a reason the (in-universe) author chose to use it instead of the regular fuck word, and I would also need a reason to have her make that choice. Also all the POV characters are humans, so it wouldn't make a lot of sense for them to use a bird-exclusive word. If anything, they probably wouldn't be able to pronounce it and it ended up bastardized into "fuck." But that's just so granular I really don't have the space to get into that, so I'm not.

Stuff like "oh my god" and "what the hell", which aren't swears _per see_ but are along those lines, would probably have to change depending on your setting. A culture without a concept of hell would use something else, or an atheist culture, but they also probably wouldn't say "oh my darwin!" either. But usually it's pretty easy to figure out what those short phrases mean in context. But they _do_ need to be short, because if you're mad/hurt yourself you're going to say something short and quick, not "by the grace of odin's beard!"


But I also write for adults. If I was writing YA or for kids, I'd be more likely to come up with my own words, or just say "and they swore under their breath" or something. Or if I was writing for tv/a movie where the rating limits the #/types of words I can use. That would be an interesting challenge, but then you also have the actor being able to get across what they're thinking/feeling with their actions in really subtle ways you can't with a book, so you do have more tools there.


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## skip.knox (May 29, 2021)

I don't find many moments in my stories where I use a swear word. I'm not prissy about it, I just want words to carry their fair share of the load, and a single word doesn't do much. 

It's not going to shock most readers. It's not particularly evocative. Many are merely exclamatory, while many others (especially in more modern settings) seem to be used rather as a form of punctuation. If there's something to exclaim about, there are other ways to communicate that would provide more description for the reader. As an intensifier, most cursing is right up there with "very" as being little more than noise. 

So yeah, plenty of people swear, in plenty of ways. People also say "uh" and "ah" and various other verbal tics. Just because people say things doesn't mean my characters need to say them. Also, there are forms of swearing that are peculiarly modern. My quasi-medieval characters might say "hell" but they certainly wouldn't say "what the hell." Cursing in general is not just culture-specific, it's also time-specific. Fortunately for us writers, most readers won't know or care to give a ....


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## Rosemary Tea (May 29, 2021)

Chasejxyz said:


> Stuff like "oh my god" and "what the hell", which aren't swears _per see_ but are along those lines, would probably have to change depending on your setting. A culture without a concept of hell would use something else, or an atheist culture, but they also probably wouldn't say "oh my darwin!" either. But usually it's pretty easy to figure out what those short phrases mean in context. But they _do_ need to be short, because if you're mad/hurt yourself you're going to say something short and quick, not "by the grace of odin's beard!"


For that reason, I've decided that the world I'm building probably does have some concept that bears enough similarity to hell to get away with calling it hell... because there are places in the story where the only descriptive that seems to work is "that hurt like hell" or "this [grueling training regimen] is going to feel like hell." But they don't have any belief in eternal torture as punishment for sins. There is a concept of afterlife, and some vague sense that evildoers who never reaped any consequences on this side of the veil could face them on the other side, but there's no "if you're good you go to heaven, if you're bad you go to hell, for all eternity" in their cosmology. At least, not as a religious teaching. There could be folklore that includes something closer to our idea of hell, but there's no prevailing belief that anyone is literally headed there.

"Oh my god" isn't in the picture, because they have multiple gods. Something like, "for chrissake" could be, but would have to be altered because there's no Christ, no Christianity, none of the world religions that we know. Religion that bears some similarity to religions, living and dead, found in our world, yes, but it isn't a perfect match for any of them.


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## Rosemary Tea (May 29, 2021)

skip.knox said:


> So yeah, plenty of people swear, in plenty of ways. People also say "uh" and "ah" and various other verbal tics. Just because people say things doesn't mean my characters need to say them. Also, there are forms of swearing that are peculiarly modern. My quasi-medieval characters might say "hell" but they certainly wouldn't say "what the hell." Cursing in general is not just culture-specific, it's also time-specific. *Fortunately for us writers, most readers won't know or care to give a ....*


Rat's ass?


skip.knox said:


> I don't find many moments in my stories where I use a swear word. I'm not prissy about it, I just want words to carry their fair share of the load, and a single word doesn't do much.
> 
> It's not going to shock most readers. It's not particularly evocative. Many are merely exclamatory, while many others (especially in more modern settings) seem to be used rather as a form of punctuation. If there's something to exclaim about, there are other ways to communicate that would provide more description for the reader. As an intensifier, most cursing is right up there with "very" as being little more than noise.


Seriously, I agree. But I find that whether and when characters cuss says a lot about what's going on, and about who they are. Some cuss regularly, because they're people who would, and not showing that would be a dishonest depiction of them. Others only cuss under the most extreme provocation, so the moments when they cuss show what really provokes them. Just a sentence or two about that can say a lot about the character.


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## Eztlirald Clarinda (Jun 1, 2021)

So in my story, pixies, elves, sprites, and fairies are all different. Although similar, they each have their own characteristics making them their own race. ( This mainly applies to the pixies, fairies, and sprites). But as in our modern reality there are some insulting slang for specific races/color, fae is an insulting term for the above mentioned. So often, people will say “Mother of fae”.


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