# Sex!



## Thoras (Nov 21, 2017)

That got your attention, now didn't it?

Now I'm not sure if this is the right place, but I couldn't tell where else it would belong. I know this is a fantasy forum, but on occasions - I'm sure your characters hook up. 

Anyway to the point, the story I'm working on right now will eventually lead to a sex scene between two characters, but I'm not entirely sure if I should simplify it by going like "..._aaand then they hooked up._" <cut chapter>, or if I should actually show the act.

The thing is, it is a fantasy book, not an erotica - but on the other hand, it is also an *adult fantasy*. I want the book to feel *real* and not sugarcoat it either, so I guess some might appreciate it - a book that would include all parts of life. And at the same time, the thought of actually describing the act in detail kind of make me feel like a pervert, because I actually think I could make it pretty authentic. So I'm thinking "what if this would be published and friends and family actually read it".  That'd be awkward. 

So I'm looking for advice on how you would deal with this in your writing, thanks in advance!

//Thoras


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## CupofJoe (Nov 21, 2017)

Two questions to ask... [and we don't need to know the answer to either of them ]
Do you want to write a sex scene?
Do you think you can write one well?
I tend to go for the "fade-to-black... Next morning" approach. 
Unless you have an Orc having sex with Fire elemental [as an example] then most people are going to be able to fill in that x and y happened an their pictures will be WAY better than any words...
Now if it is important to your characters development that something happened in a certain way... then that's a different problem.
A friend wrote a story about someone who was a war crimes survivor and had the most brutal types of sex to punish themselves for surviving. It was true to the character [as far as I could tell] but it didn't make for an easy or pleasant read.


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## Thoras (Nov 21, 2017)

CupofJoe said:


> Two questions to ask... [and we don't need to know the answer to either of them ]
> Do you want to write a sex scene?
> Do you think you can write one well?
> I tend to go for the "fade-to-black... Next morning" approach.
> ...



Well the first question I think I would say no, the second one I'd say yes - but of course that is for others to judge. 
Haha well there are no orcs nor fire elementals involved, they're both "pretty much" human. 
Oh, yeah I'm sure that wouldn't be pleasant, however I'm not considering something to freaky haha. But yeah, the "fade-to-black" do feel as the best option at the moment. I'm mostly curious to know what people would appreciate most as the reader. 

Thanks!


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## FifthView (Nov 21, 2017)

Basically, the biggest questions to ask yourself are whether the sex scene is important to the story and _how_ important it is to the story.

I've read a lot of fantasy m/m romance stories, and at least one sex scene with at least moderate detail is important to that subgenre. The relationship between the two characters is key to the story as a whole, and the sex scene can be used to show a lot about each character and how they interact. A lot of those romances will have more than one sex scene, and those scenes will be rather explicit, although there are different approaches in the subgenre and not all will have many explicit scenes. (Some trend more toward the fantasy plot throughline than toward being almost entirely only about the relationship.)

So...even in something that isn't largely a type of romance tale, a detailed sex scene can still be important to the story. Or not. Much of the time for typical fantasy fare, it's simply not important to the tale. But it _could_ be. What are you wanting to show by including the sex scene? How two characters interact? How their interaction will play a major role in the tale as a whole? How two species come to interact in such an intimate way? How various ecologies/species function? Etc. You might have any number of reasons for including an extended scene and for how you write that scene. However, I don't think that "to make it more realistic" or "to show that all the common things in our world are common in that world" are great reasons for including such scenes. Some other purpose would be necessary to justify spending a lot of time and detail on the sex—in my opinion.


BTW, regardless of your purposes for including the scene, the scene should probably be about more than mere sex.  Unless of course alien sex or even violent encounters of a sexual nature, or some similar things, _are_ the point.


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## Vvashjr (Nov 21, 2017)

I detail my sex scenes because its integral to the development of a character, and also the catalyst of the start of a relationship with another main. I see it as no different from those romance novels out there. 

Personally I don't think there are hard and fast rules about it. Even among interspecies, if you can work around the biology of it, I say go for it. I would be interested to read of how this race makes it with another(eg a centaur and a dwarf etc)


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## Thoras (Nov 21, 2017)

FifthView said:


> Basically, the biggest questions to ask yourself are whether the sex scene is important to the story and _how_ important it is to the story.
> 
> I've read a lot of fantasy m/m romance stories, and at least one sex scene with at least moderate detail is important to that subgenre. The relationship between the two characters is key to the story as a whole, and the sex scene can be used to show a lot about each character and how they interact. A lot of those romances will have more than one sex scene, and those scenes will be rather explicit, although there are different approaches in the subgenre and not all will have many explicit scenes. (Some trend more toward the fantasy plot throughline than toward being almost entirely only about the relationship.)
> 
> ...



All right, you do make some excellent points. They come from very different cultures, and one of them are sort of a mutation or evolution of the human, therefore they are mostly the same biologically - but their culture and view on relationships vary a lot. You gave me some points to consider, as it could tell a lot about their cultural difference. Thanks!



Vvashjr said:


> I detail my sex scenes because its integral to the development of a character, and also the catalyst of the start of a relationship with another main. I see it as no different from those romance novels out there.
> 
> Personally I don't think there are hard and fast rules about it. Even among interspecies, if you can work around the biology of it, I say go for it. I would be interested to read of how this race makes it with another(eg a centaur and a dwarf etc)



Haha you made me laugh out loud mate, I'm not sure I would use the word "interested" to describe how I would feel about the thought of a centaur mating with a dwarf... not sure which would be worse to be honest, if the centaur being male or female...  

Thanks!


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## Vvashjr (Nov 21, 2017)

Thoras said:


> Haha you made me laugh out loud mate, I'm not sure I would use the word "interested" to describe how I would feel about the thought of a centaur mating with a dwarf... not sure which would be worse to be honest, if the centaur being male or female...
> 
> Thanks!


Hhahahahah personally I am always intrigued when it comes to inter-racial relationships, especially more so if neither is human, or at least one of them is not of conventional humanoid shape. No I assure you Im not a perv lol but I think its wonderful to stretch the mind or imagination or at the very least try to use science to explain in terms of fantasy. I just had an animated discussion with a close friend on the dynamics of mermaid/man reproduction with a human, and it was interesting to dissect the nuances of it


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## Thoras (Nov 21, 2017)

Vvashjr said:


> Hhahahahah personally I am always intrigued when it comes to inter-racial relationships, especially more so if neither is human, or at least one of them is not of conventional humanoid shape. No I assure you Im not a perv lol but I think its wonderful to stretch the mind or imagination or at the very least try to use science to explain in terms of fantasy. I just had an animated discussion with a close friend on the dynamics of mermaid/man reproduction with a human, and it was interesting to dissect the nuances of it



Haha! Not judging anyone, I didn't think you were a perv, I just had a hard time pitching it as something "beautiful" hahaha 
But yeah, I'm sure there are things along those lines that would be interesting, I suppose my mind isn't fully as developed within fantastical acts of mating  Ah... the classical _mermaid-and-man-question_, that is something I have explored to some extent in my mind, probably like most others.  Always seems to come to the same conclusion however...


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## Vvashjr (Nov 21, 2017)

Thoras said:


> Haha! Not judging anyone, I didn't think you were a perv, I just had a hard time pitching it as something "beautiful" hahaha
> But yeah, I'm sure there are things along those lines that would be interesting, I suppose my mind isn't fully as developed within fantastical acts of mating  Ah... the classical _mermaid-and-man-question_, that is something I have explored to some extent in my mind, probably like most others.  Always seems to come to the same conclusion however...



Our conclusion on that is hardly romantic. LOL basically you have to do as fishes do. Spawn in water and fertilise in the water!


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## Chessie2 (Nov 21, 2017)

It depends on the tone of your novel. If it's already gritty, show it. If it's clean and tame, fade to black. Think of the audience you are writing for and how they would respond.

There are strong sex scenes in my elven romance because of the story's tone, but my historical romances are split: my clean and wholesome series has bases 1 and 2 leading up to the act, which I hardly decribe and then fade to black. My sweet historical romances are not wholesome. They have strong adult themes and the sex is more poetic, if you will. I wrote the prose to be delectable according to the theme of the books and the series in general.

So, it depends on many factors. And hey, if you need help PM me. I write sex scenes a lot, lol.


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## Insolent Lad (Nov 21, 2017)

They say to write what you know so I avoid sex scenes. Seriously, every time I start a new project I think 'Oh, I'll go more explicit in this one' but I can't seem to find a reason to when I get there. It doesn't seem to reveal much of anything—the lead up, the pillow talk after, seems to do way more for characterization.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Nov 21, 2017)

I've included sex scenes in my WIP. I agree with Chessie2 that it depends on the story as to how explicit you get. Matching the tone of the rest of the story I think is key. Otherwise your sex scene will stand out like a proverbial sore thumb. For my WIP, my rule has been to not get any more explicit than necessary to get the point across that needs to be made by including the sex scene. If it's just to say that a couple had sex, then the fade-to-black is all that's necessary. If something happens during the sex act that is needed to build character or further the plot or serve some other story purpose, then I focus on that part, and gloss over other details. I know some people prefer not to read about the sex act in their fantasy, but if you're writing adult fantasy, I think a lot of those readers will tolerate it, if it's not gratuitous.


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## Thoras (Nov 21, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> It depends on the tone of your novel. If it's already gritty, show it. If it's clean and tame, fade to black. Think of the audience you are writing for and how they would respond.
> 
> There are strong sex scenes in my elven romance because of the story's tone, but my historical romances are split: my clean and wholesome series has bases 1 and 2 leading up to the act, which I hardly decribe and then fade to black. My sweet historical romances are not wholesome. They have strong adult themes and the sex is more poetic, if you will. I wrote the prose to be delectable according to the theme of the books and the series in general.
> 
> So, it depends on many factors. And hey, if you need help PM me. I write sex scenes a lot, lol.



This was kind of the view I had at first, as the story is intended to be gritty, raw and 'real', therefore I thought I should show it. It's hardly clean and tame 

Ah thanks! I might do that! I'll be starting a new job tomorrow (besides my full time studies) so it's not likely I'll be getting much done in the coming weeks though, but if I'll ever get stuck in a dirty sex-pile, I'll absolutely PM you  Thanks!



Insolent Lad said:


> They say to write what you know so I avoid sex scenes. Seriously, every time I start a new project I think 'Oh, I'll go more explicit in this one' but I can't seem to find a reason to when I get there. It doesn't seem to reveal much of anything—the lead up, the pillow talk after, seems to do way more for characterization.



Yeah that's probably true, like others said earlier - if it doesn't add to the plot it's probably pointless. However "write what you know" may be true, but you can always research what you don't know. I mean, I don't know how it is to be a 25 year old woman, but I can imagine it, and research the blank spots if necessary  Thanks!


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Nov 21, 2017)

I think two important guidelines apply here: 

1. Leave in only what the story needs 
and 
2. Skip what the reader will skip anyway. 

I'm not a guideliney person, but these guidelines are some i like. They help to curb some of my bad habits of pointlessly rambling. 

"It's a part of life" or "It's something that people do a lot" isn't really a reason for something. We skip things like that all the time because they're not important to the story. For example, even if the hero took a long, refreshing crap prior to going out to fight the villain, we don't need the details. 

That's not to say that a sex scene can't be important. Unlike the hero taking a dump, such a scene is an interaction between two characters that is likely to transform or add to their relationship. I think that's pretty important to show. 

That said, I think the emotions involved and the events leading up and afterward are likely to be more revealing of character and the transformation in their relationship than the act itself. Personally, I don't want to read about body parts; I want to read about character's feelings, vulnerabilities, both the closeness and the distance between them.


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## Sheilawisz (Nov 21, 2017)

Hello everyone!

Please keep the discussion directly related to writing, avoid using any sort of explicit language and everything shall be alright.

Also, no dirty jokes please!

S.W.


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## Chessie2 (Nov 21, 2017)

I actually disagree with the concept of "only if it's important to the story." The tone and vibe of the novel is really what matters:

-if your readers are already immersed in a gritty tale, this means they are more open to reading detailed love scenes (less room for being offended).
-love scenes by their very nature are designed to show character growth and vulnerability. It binds characters, brings them closer emotionally. Meaning, it's a positive way of developing strengths etc.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Nov 21, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> I actually disagree with the concept of "only if it's important to the story." The tone and vibe of the novel is really what matters:
> 
> -if your readers are already immersed in a gritty tale, this means they are more open to reading detailed love scenes (less room for being offended).
> -love scenes by their very nature are designed to show character growth and vulnerability. It binds characters, brings them closer emotionally. Meaning, it's a positive way of developing strengths etc.



I kinda think that falls under "important to the story".


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## Chessie2 (Nov 21, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I kinda think that falls under "important to the story".


That's too basic an explanation and the OP was asking for something more specific.


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## Ban (Nov 22, 2017)

Write it, see if it is any good and use it if it is. If it's not good, you've at least gained some experience in writing scenes like this.


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## Heliotrope (Nov 23, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> I actually disagree with the concept of "only if it's important to the story." The tone and vibe of the novel is really what matters:
> 
> -if your readers are already immersed in a gritty tale, this means they are more open to reading detailed love scenes (less room for being offended).
> -love scenes by their very nature are designed to show character growth and vulnerability. It binds characters, brings them closer emotionally. Meaning, it's a positive way of developing strengths etc.



Yeah, I agree with Chessie on this. At first I was in the "what does it serve the plot" camp.... which I think is mostly right to consider... but then I love GOT and Outlander as much as anyone and a lot of those scenes would be considered "gratuitous" or in some cases down right pornographic... but hey... it makes for good reading and viewing and serves the tone of the novel.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Nov 23, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> I actually disagree with the concept of "only if it's important to the story." The tone and vibe of the novel is really what matters:
> 
> -if your readers are already immersed in a gritty tale, this means they are more open to reading detailed love scenes (less room for being offended).
> -love scenes by their very nature are designed to show character growth and vulnerability. It binds characters, brings them closer emotionally. Meaning, it's a positive way of developing strengths etc.





Thoras said:


> So I'm looking for advice on how you would deal with this in your writing, thanks in advance!



I totally agree with Chessie2 that the tone and vibe of the novel is really what matters. Though you say you're not writing erotica, if the tale is gritty in other ways, maybe you're okay with including detailed love scenes for the sake of realism. If the tale is not gritty in any way, it's probably not a wise decision to throw explicit sex scenes in the middle of it. If you're somewhere in the middle, maybe you can include some sex scenes with only the explicit details that are important to the _story_, which is not to say they are important necessarily to the _plot_, but may be character building or world building or whatever.


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## FifthView (Nov 23, 2017)

...And I'm with DotA in thinking that "important to the story" is different than "important to the plot." 

The tone is important to the story but maybe not to the plot, heh. Same with character development and showing character interactions and relationships.

But the problem with saying "it should be important to the story" is that pretty much everything is important to the story, or should be. I.e., what constitutes "the story" might be highly subjective for both writer and reader, but the whole set of features—tone, characters, themes, setting/world, and so forth—combine to create "the story."

However, the thing "important to the story" accomplishes is that, for me personally, I can say it without intending to mean that everything added to a tale must "serve the plot." And, that's how I use the phrase. But I think sometimes my use triggers the idea "serve the plot" even when that's not at all what I intended. 

[Edit: FWIW, I began writing the above before Michael's comment. I think a lot of us might be on the same general page but some of this terminology, i.e., the semantics, isn't settled, heh.]


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## Heliotrope (Nov 23, 2017)

FifthView said:


> [Edit: FWIW, I began writing the above before Michael's comment. I think a lot of us might be on the same general page but some of this terminology, i.e., the semantics, isn't settled, heh.]



I think this is it too. IMO the whole entire package tied up with paper and bow is the "story"... plot, characters, tone, voice, word choice, style, etc etc etc.... = story.


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## FifthView (Nov 23, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> I think this is it too. IMO the whole entire package tied up with paper and bow is the "story"... plot, characters, tone, voice, word choice, style, etc etc etc.... = story.



I've also thought that sometimes I should revise the comment and say "important to the reader's experience of the story that you want the reader to have," but that's awfully long and clunky and a bit vague/abstract. 

This would, however, bring in the important factor of how the reader experiences the unfolding of the tale. 

So even if the novel is gritty, perhaps you as author don't particularly want the reader to read through a long, explicit sex scene. You want the focus to be on other events or aspects of the tale. Or you want the relationship or characters' feelings about the sex to remain a little uncertain, mysterious, for reader _and_ the characters involved—in which case, you fade to black but have a sequel in which one or both characters mull over that event. Or, maybe you do want that kind of scene, because you think this will present the tale as you intend for it to be experienced. 

Even a tale that is largely "not gritty" might benefit from an extended sex scene, albeit one that isn't quite as explicit but more....metaphorical? More keyed into the emotions but with less explicit detail of what is happening?  

That said, none of this excludes the possibility that a sex scene _can_ be important to the plot.

Heh. So many ways to go about it.


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## Annoyingkid (Nov 24, 2017)

Thoras said:


> So I'm thinking "what if this would be published and friends and family actually read it".  That'd be awkward.



Let your sense of shame be your guide. If you get embarrassed by it, it's a sign you've gone too far.
Also get it proofread alot. It's easy to be unintentionally funny or cringeworthy here, and you're unlikely to be able to see it for yourself.


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## Chessie2 (Nov 24, 2017)

I don't understand why these sorts of questions constantly evolve into detailed explanations of what one thing should be vs another when it really comes down to the individual author's definition of what's important. It adds confusion to the mix. I get so frustrated trying to help others when everythig gets so muddied wih detail. I should just stop answering questions on here.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Nov 24, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> Let your sense of shame be your guide. If you get embarrassed by it, it's a sign you've gone too far.



I'm inclined to disagree. I try not to let my feelings about what would offend people I know or make me self-conscious guide what I write. Be brave in writing. Write what the story demands, not what you're afraid others would judge you for if they saw. 

But, if you really don't want to, not just out of fear of being judged but in your own feelings, then don't. You're the god of your world.


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## Annoyingkid (Nov 24, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I'm inclined to disagree. I try not to let my feelings about what would offend people I know or make me self-conscious guide what I write. Be brave in writing. Write what the story demands, not what you're afraid others would judge you for if they saw.
> 
> But, if you really don't want to, not just out of fear of being judged but in your own feelings, then don't. You're the god of your world.



It's not about being judged. It's about the fact what affects the writer a certain way typically affects the reader the same way. 
ie,  If it bores you to write it, it will likely bore others to read it. 
If it embarrasses you to write it, it will likely embarrass others to read it. 
And so on.


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## Chessie2 (Nov 24, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> It's not about being judged. It's about the fact what affects the writer a certain way typically affects the reader the same way.
> ie,  If it bores you to write it, it will likely bore others to read it.
> If it embarrasses you to write it, it will likely embarrass others to read it.
> And so on.


Why is sex being treated like it's a bad shameful thing?


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## Annoyingkid (Nov 24, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> Why is sex being treated like it's a bad shameful thing?



Sex is a fundamentally private act that the writer is openly sharing with the world. If it's not written with sensitivity and skill, there's big potential for cringe,


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## Chessie2 (Nov 24, 2017)

FifthView said:


> I've also thought that sometimes I should revise the comment and say "important to the reader's experience of the story that you want the reader to have," but that's awfully long and clunky and a bit vague/abstract.
> 
> This would, however, bring in the important factor of how the reader experiences the unfolding of the tale.
> 
> ...


I disagree all the way. Tone is related to the subgenre if a story. A dark epic fantasy will more than likely do just fine with explicit sex (GOT or Best Served Cold) compared to a historical fantasy with a little romance and a cleaner focus.



Annoyingkid said:


> Sex is a fundamentally private act that the writer is openly sharing with the world. If it's not written with sensitivity and skill, there's big potential for cringe,


Gotcha. Yeah this is true.

Maybe it's because I write a lot of sex scenes that I'm...I guess...confused as to why they're seen as special scenes. Sex scenes are love scenes and emotions are what matters, not the explicitness of the act. The focus should be on emotions. It's why I'm like whaa?? when some here have said "Only if it's important to the story". Emotions are important to any story (and some here who have said in other threads they don't write sex scenes or romantic scenes, no offense but how would you recognize the importance or value of them if you don't include them in your own fiction?).


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## Annoyingkid (Nov 24, 2017)

It has value. For instance it allows a writer to bring up two lagging supporting characters in one move.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Nov 25, 2017)

I'd only include a sex scene if it's important to the story in the same way I'd only include a clown scene if it was important to the story. I could write a lengthy clown scene and include it in my WIP, but it would be a detraction, so why would I include it? My story has nothing to do with clowns. My story does have something to do with sex, so I include sex scenes. But I wouldn't include a sex scene just to include one. I don't understand the resistance to the desire to include something in your story only if it is of _some_ importance to the story being told. If it's not important in some way, why is it there? I'd personally cut it during editing if it's not in some way important.


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## Annoyingkid (Nov 25, 2017)

Michael K. Eidson said:


> so why would I include it?


 
To turn on the reader?


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## FifthView (Nov 25, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> I disagree all the way. Tone is related to the subgenre if a story. A dark epic fantasy will more than likely do just fine with explicit sex (GOT or Best Served Cold) compared to a historical fantasy with a little romance and a cleaner focus.



I simply don't understand how your comment addresses what I wrote?

My general impression is that you are saying the only important consideration is whether you are writing one tone vs another, and that one _always _allows the inclusion of an explicit sex scene and the other _always_ requires a less explicit treatment of whatever sex appears in it.

For me, that's a bit too much absolutism. I do think that if you as author decide your story is going to be a "cleaner" historical romance, then, circularly, it's got to be cleaner. And if you as author decide your extremely gritty dark epic fantasy is going to have no holds barred, then you _can_ include explicit sex—but I don't think it follows that just because you _can_, you _should_.

But all of that is pretty much what I said in the comment you quoted and elsewhere. It's up to the author to decide the kind of story she is going to tell. Decide it's going to be a relatively clean historical romance and stick to that—if that's what you want—or decide it's going to be a dark epic fantasy with lots of grit and do or don't include an explicit sex scene—if that's what you want for the tale.

I don't think that the dichotomy needs to be absolute for every example of a gritty, dark epic fantasy or a historical fantasy with a _generally_ cleaner focus. I do think that a sudden, unexpected explicit sex scene in an otherwise generally clean historical romance might catch a reader off guard; but then again, maybe for a particular tale you'd want to catch the reader off guard. So I think being careful about this would be important.

I also think that from a marketing standpoint, if your target audience is the sort that likes the clean historical romance, you should probably stick with keeping it relatively clean. If your target audience is the sort looking for erotica or porn, you have to please them. But you as author get to decide what your target audience is or even whether to write for one of those niches, so it's still up to you.


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## Chessie2 (Nov 25, 2017)

I never said always. 

As a generalism, tone of story defines what can be put in it. Readers should know what to expect when they first go in. This starts at the beginning with cover, blurb, title, etc. So if you start clean then the reader expects clean. If you start dark the reader expects dark. 

About should or always, I never said that. And it's these detailed running arounds of language when we converse on here that become exhausting. Sometimes I long for these answers to OP threads to be simplistic. Why? Because it gives people the freedom to figure things out for themselves without getting confused. Many of these conversations turn into eye rolling hair splitting (for me). I'm going to exit now.


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## FifthView (Nov 25, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> I never said always.
> 
> As a generalism, tone of story defines what can be put in it. Readers should know what to expect when they first go in. This starts at the beginning with cover, blurb, title, etc. So if you start clean then the reader expects clean. If you start dark the reader expects dark.
> 
> About should or always, I never said that. And it's these detailed running arounds of language when we converse on here that become exhausting. Sometimes I long for these answers to OP threads to be simplistic. Why? Because it gives people the freedom to figure things out for themselves without getting confused. Many of these conversations turn into eye rolling hair splitting (for me). I'm going to exit now.



Sometimes these threads are confusing for me when someone posts that they disagree entirely with me but are giving opinions that pretty much match everything I've written in the discussion.  [Was looking for a head-scratch emoji but couldn't find it.]


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## Thoras (Nov 26, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> Let your sense of shame be your guide. If you get embarrassed by it, it's a sign you've gone too far.
> Also get it proofread alot. It's easy to be unintentionally funny or cringeworthy here, and you're unlikely to be able to see it for yourself.



Well I'm not sure that is a good rule to follow. It's not that I'd be ashamed of what I wrote to the general population, just family and close friends. I mean we all know when reading a book that no matter how immersive it is, in the end it is all a mix of imagination and experiences of that one author himself/herself. Meaning it is actually quite personal and private, and I don't usually share much of myself to others, not even family and friends. It is the exposing part that is scary to me.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Nov 26, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> And it's these detailed running arounds of language when we converse on here that become exhausting.



 I agree with the sentiment. But we have to remember that this is a discussion forum, not a Q&A app. Disagreements and misunderstandings come with the territory. We all throw out our opinions, and the OP makes of the mess what he or she will.

Also, it's not just the OP that can benefit from what any of us have to say. Every post I read on Mystic Scribes gives me another way of thinking about writing. I welcome other viewpoints. I don't always understand where the other person is coming from at the time, but later down the road, I might have a moment of clarity or inspiration due to something I've read here. Keep in mind too that some people read without commenting, and they might find helpful advice among any of our posts.



Annoyingkid said:


> To turn on the reader?



Then it has purpose, and that's where I would say it has importance to the story. If you can come up with a reason for it to be included, then include it. If there is no reason, then cut it.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Nov 26, 2017)

Thoras said:


> Well I'm not sure that is a good rule to follow. It's not that I'd be ashamed of what I wrote to the general population, just family and close friends. I mean we all know when reading a book that no matter how immersive it is, in the end it is all a mix of imagination and experiences of that one author himself/herself. Meaning it is actually quite personal and private, and I don't usually share much of myself to others, not even family and friends. It is the exposing part that is scary to me.



I understand that feeling too well.


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## evolution_rex (Nov 26, 2017)

I am in the outlining stage of a huge story where a romance plays a major role. I usually stay away from side romances but the romance here is integral to the theme and story, but since I've never really written romance before I've put a lot thought into it. I'm definitely going by the 'fade to black wake up next morning' trope for two reasons. The first is that the characters are 17 and I wouldn't feel comfortable going that far with underage characters, but the second is that whenever I read a sex scene in a book or watch  a sex scene in a film, I'm quite frankly bored, slightly uncomfortable, and scratching my head as to why this needed to be included. Often, I find it to be completely necessary, especially in film where they become odd awkward montages of arms, legs, and lips touching until the background music stops and something more important happens.

That isn't to say all sex scenes are filler. There are many ways in which sex can be used to convey something about the characters or a theme within the story. At times the emotions of the moment are itself the importance of the scene, and it can be written wonderfully. I suppose it's the same rule that applies to everything else; everything you write needs to serve some purpose for the story, otherwise it can be edited out.


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## A. E. Lowan (Nov 27, 2017)

I am one chapter away from writing the first of many, many sex scenes in our series, and I am absolutely delighted! We are not "fade to black" writers, mostly because sex in all its aspects is an integral part of the human experience and a great deal of storytelling happens within sexual interaction between characters. Plus, it's fun! Fun fun fun. There is nothing shameful about enjoying writing sex and I wish you all much joy of the process.


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## Chessie2 (Nov 27, 2017)

A. E. Lowan said:


> I am one chapter away from writing the first of many, many sex scenes in our series, and I am absolutely delighted! We are not "fade to black" writers, mostly because sex in all its aspects is an integral part of the human experience and a great deal of storytelling happens within sexual interaction between characters. Plus, it's fun! Fun fun fun. There is nothing shameful about enjoying writing sex and I wish you all much joy of the process.


Word. Enjoy it!  I wrote a heavy petting scene last night that is integral to some issues the heroine is struggling with. It may not seem from the exterior how much value these love scenes have, but it's all about what happens emotionally and psychologically. Btw...my heroes get a visit from a late night officer because they're in a parking lot, heh.

Edit: I hate typing on my stupid phone. Typos.


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## Chessie2 (Nov 28, 2017)

I wanted to add one more thing to this thread: if you, dear writer, have a romance subplot that includes amorous physical interaction, you will drive your readers wild by slow burning that puppy. Slowly turn up the heat, bring them close, pull them apart, and I'm talking emotionally here. So when they finally give into their physical attraction the reader will have gone through the emotional journey with the characters and will connect that much better with them.


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## Heidi Hanley (Dec 15, 2017)

Thoras said:


> That got your attention, now didn't it?
> 
> Now I'm not sure if this is the right place, but I couldn't tell where else it would belong. I know this is a fantasy forum, but on occasions - I'm sure your characters hook up.
> 
> ...





Thoras said:


> That got your attention, now didn't it?
> 
> Now I'm not sure if this is the right place, but I couldn't tell where else it would belong. I know this is a fantasy forum, but on occasions - I'm sure your characters hook up.
> 
> ...


I know I'm a little late weighing in and everyone has offered their thoughts. If you do go for it, then I recommend Diana Gabaldon's book, I Give you My Body..." How I write Sex Scenes. Wonderful resource and ideas on how to write sex scenes and not always explicit.


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## StepIntoTheRoad (Dec 15, 2017)

As I look through this thread, I feel like the difference between a pointless sex scene and a genuine sex scene is whether or not it adds something to the story. A useful sex scene conveys some information about our characters. 
Readers can tell when the scene is in there because 'sex sells' and when it's being told on purpose. They see them both as sex scenes, but with one of them they walk away from it thinking "hey now I know something different about the character that I didn't." In my opinion, a sex scene would be a place to see sides of your characters that you won't see in any other situation. But if there's no story to the act then you're just as well off fading to black and showing the fall out the next morning. The fall out is where the plot lies in those situations.


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## Annoyingkid (Dec 15, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> I wanted to add one more thing to this thread: if you, dear writer, have a romance subplot that includes amorous physical interaction, you will drive your readers wild by slow burning that puppy. Slowly turn up the heat, bring them close, pull them apart, and I'm talking emotionally here. So when they finally give into their physical attraction the reader will have gone through the emotional journey with the characters and will connect that much better with them.



What if they never give into their physical attraction? Frustrating?


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## A. E. Lowan (Dec 15, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> What if they never give into their physical attraction? Frustrating?


I actually stopped reading a series because of that. The author went to greater and greater lengths to keep from closing the deal, to the point of snapping the cable that suspends disbelief, and I never bought the last book because I just couldn't care anymore. So, yes, frustrating. And, more importantly, alienating to the reader. Once they have buy in to this relationship, they want to see it progress.


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## Annoyingkid (Dec 15, 2017)

A. E. Lowan said:


> I actually stopped reading a series because of that. The author went to greater and greater lengths to keep from closing the deal, to the point of snapping the cable that suspends disbelief, and I never bought the last book because I just couldn't care anymore. So, yes, frustrating. And, more importantly, alienating to the reader. Once they have buy in to this relationship, they want to see it progress.



What about negative progression. WHat about a relationship that builds to romance and theyre about to give in, something happens to break them up and they end up hating each other. More or less frustrating than one that stops at the cusp of romance/sex?


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## A. E. Lowan (Dec 15, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> What about negative progression. WHat about a relationship that builds to romance and theyre about to give in, something happens to break them up and they end up hating each other. More or less frustrating than one that stops at the cusp of romance/sex?


Negative progression is still progression. It may be disappointing, but if it's realistically portrayed then that's just sometimes how life is. Bittersweet and damaged, but still life. One doesn't want to do this _too_ often, though, else one becomes the writer known as Bummer Man.  But we do it, and those gems of heartache stand out all the more for being rare.


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## Annoyingkid (Dec 15, 2017)

People are saying "Only if it contributes to the story" 

But I'm not understanding what showing the sex is supposed to contribute over a cut away or leaving it up to reader imagination.


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## A. E. Lowan (Dec 15, 2017)

Heidi Hanley said:


> I know I'm a little late weighing in and everyone has offered their thoughts. If you do go for it, then I recommend Diana Gabaldon's book, I Give you My Body..." How I write Sex Scenes. Wonderful resource and ideas on how to write sex scenes and not always explicit.


This is an excellent recommendation, and I'd like to add to it.

_Be a Sex-Writing Strumpet_ by erotica writer Stacia Kane is a fun read, and she talks a great deal about language and mood.

_Naughty Words for Nice Writers: a Romance Novel Thesaurus_ by Cara Bristol is a great book of lists of words for all sorts of things. 

I would also recommend a book or two on the hows and whys of sex. I own a silly number of them. They can be wonderful inspiration as well as helping to figure out exactly how something is supposed to work out on the page.


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## A. E. Lowan (Dec 15, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> People are saying "Only if it contributes to the story"
> 
> But I'm not understanding what showing the sex is supposed to contribute over a cut away or leaving it up to reader imagination.


Let me give you a brief, fairly tame, example from the chapter I'm currently writing.

_Alerich peered into the refrigerator, curious. “I am game for anything sweet, and I like onions. I don’t know what a ‘Vidalia’ is, but I’m willing to try it.”_

_Winter turned around and found Alerich’s warm throat mere inches from her face, his hand resting on the fridge door just above her head. She breathed him in, the spicy scent bringing her skin to tingling life and causing things to tighten low in her body. She tilted her head back and found him looking down at her, pupils dilated, lips slightly parted. Winter found herself wondering what Alerich’s mouth would taste like, feel like against her lips as her legs wrapped around his lean hips. The vivid nature of her imagining brought a flush to her cheeks._

_A slight smile tugged at the corner of that mouth, his eyes darkening further as if he could see her thoughts. He slowly dropped his hand from the door, his fingers coming to rest against her blush-warmed cheek._

_“Alerich,” she began, her voice breathy._

_He blinked once and looked at her as if seeing her for the first time. “Rick.” His voice was quiet. Intimate. “My friends call me Rick. I… I want you to know me. Please, call me Rick.”_

_Winter smiled up at him and brushed a stray lock of hair from his brow. “It would be my pleasure, Rick.” She turned and laid a quick kiss on his palm. “Let’s make dinner.” Winter twined her fingers with his and led the way back to the cutting board, cheese and dressing held close to her chest for balance.
_
This is just the opening salvo, and they'll be having sex on screen in the next chapter. But, as you can see, this exchange is about intimacy, about discovering vulnerability and making a connection with another person. That is why we show sex, because it can be a very vulnerable, intimate exchange between individuals... or not. Sometimes it's painful and hurtful. Either way, it is a powerful storytelling device and to leave the reader with gently wafting curtains and a rehash of what happened the next morning is to miss an opportunity for some major character development to happen right before the reader's eyes.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 15, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> People are saying "Only if it contributes to the story"
> 
> But I'm not understanding what showing the sex is supposed to contribute over a cut away or leaving it up to reader imagination.



Another thing that a lot of people are saying is that a scene should do as many as possible of the following three things: progress the plot, develop the characters involved, develop the setting.

When it comes to sex I can see how it might be difficult to develop the setting within which the story takes place. I can see how it may be done, but those are edge cases and probably won't be very common.
Developing the plot can also be done, but here too we're talking more about deviations from the norm than about straight up story progress (that can be done by just fading to black (or grey or pink or a whiter shade of pale or whatever)).

Developing character is a different matter. Sex provides a situation where a character has the opportunity to enter into an emotional state which is difficult to replicate in other situations. It's an opportunity to see aspects of a character that might otherwise have been hidden from view.

Optionally: "show, don't tell"


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## Heliotrope (Dec 15, 2017)

Unless the plot _is _the romance. I'm noticing that many of the writers who are pro-sex on this thread are romance writers. That isn't a coincidence. There as a very specific plot structure used for romance, and sex is a big part of that. (Not sex in itself, but any act of physical closeness. Some plots build up to a simple hand hold, like Max and Lucas in Stranger Things, others to a simple first kiss).



Annoyingkid said:


> What about negative progression. WHat about a relationship that builds to romance and theyre about to give in, something happens to break them up and they end up hating each other. More or less frustrating than one that stops at the cusp of romance/sex?



Right, which could happen, but you have to know what you are writing and who your audience is. When I pick up a cheap paperback romance at the hospital because I know I'm going to be there a while (I often am with my daughter) like my most recent one:

https://www.amazon.com/Four-Nights-Duke-Desperate-Duchesses/dp/0062223917

I already have an expectation that the romance is going to _go _somewhere. And by _go _somewhere I mean I get to be all giggly during sex scenes while my daughter sleeps off her medication. If it deviated from the expected plot line I would be straight up pissed. 

But I know the basic structure of how it will happen. The two characters will have some reason why they cannot, under any circumstances be together. They hate each other, they are from different classes, blah blah blah.. .In these books the sex IS the plot. It is what moves the plot forward because the plot is the development of the romance. Does that make sense?

In an epic fantasy of all male warriors on a battle field it might not move the plot forward... although I read a great Irish myth about the Morrigan and she would sleep with the warriors in order to get their strategies then go back to the Tuatha De Danu and spill the enemy's plans... so......


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 15, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> People are saying "Only if it contributes to the story"
> 
> But I'm not understanding what showing the sex is supposed to contribute over a cut away or leaving it up to reader imagination.



Personally, one of my favorite themes to explore in fiction and poetry is the interplay between closeness and fear. Opening yourself to another person, becoming vulnerable, and especially the risk in it. A sex scene is one of many ways that can show characters' vulnerability. 

How is a sex scene different than, say, and argument scene? It's an interaction between two characters. It can develop or transform their relationship. It can be very emotional.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 15, 2017)

idk i just question this idea that showing sex "on-screen" (on-page??) is never important which kinda assumes that sex doesn't have any relational value or emotional depth


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## Heliotrope (Dec 15, 2017)

lol. Ewwwwwwww, gross. Cover your eyes.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 15, 2017)

Svrtnsse said:


> (that can be done by just fading to black (or grey or pink or a whiter shade of pale or whatever)).



fade to ultramarine blue 
fade to orange 
fade to magenta


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## Chessie2 (Dec 15, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> Unless the plot _is _the romance. I'm noticing that many of the writers who are pro-sex on this thread are romance writers. That isn't a coincidence. There as a very specific plot structure used for romance, and sex is a big part of that. (Not sex in itself, but any act of physical closeness. Some plots build up to a simple hand hold, like Max and Lucas in Stranger Things, others to a simple first kiss).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No.
Sex is not the plot.
The plot is how two people fall in love and live happily ever after and the obstacles/mountains in their hearts needed to be moved in order for them to end up happy at the end.
Sex is an ingredient for love, not the whole pie.
I'm sorry but I think you're missing the point of what a romance is (an emotional journey from start to finish between two lovers). Ever heard of sweet romance? Or Christian romance? Those couples don't have sex during the book and it's still considered romance. It's not about the sex.


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## pmmg (Dec 15, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> lol. Ewwwwwwww, gross. Cover your eyes.



But wait, I looked...   

I don't know, I believe in giving the story what it needs. If sex needs to be in there, than by all means...put it in. If not, then I would leave it out. Like everything else, one has to ask what this is really adding to the story. If its adding something important then in it has to go. I think it mostly belongs if it adds to understanding the characters, being witness to the ways in which they grow or relate, or culminates something that has been building for a long time, or I suppose adds to the tone of the story.

In addressing the original post, sounds like something with a soft R rating would most likely suit. Though, you really should not write with the fear that others may read it. You gotta write it the way it needs to be. Dance like no one is watching, and all that.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 15, 2017)

No I'm not missing the point, I'm just not articulating myself well. Sex is a big part of romance, love, wether it is a first kiss, or hand holding, or full on sex. Being physically intimate is a big part of love (even if it is only a first kiss). It would be challenging to write a romance plot line without some physical intimacy, and readers expect it. That is all I'm getting at.

Of course in Christian romance or sweet romance it is not there, which is why I said "first kiss" counts. Physical intimacy ). Often times the whole set up of the novel is to get to the first kiss by the end. For me that counts as "sex" for the general purpose of the argument.


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## pmmg (Dec 15, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> People are saying "Only if it contributes to the story"
> 
> But I'm not understanding what showing the sex is supposed to contribute over a cut away or leaving it up to reader imagination.



Well, I think a lot of the sex in Game of Thrones accomplishes this. Through the sex we see how the Dothraki treat and think of women, both those they are devoted to and those they have conquered. We also saw a bit of how Viserys treated his sister, as if she was his property, and his right. If they had simply faded to black, we would have lost a good bit of showing how these relationships worked. The scene where Daenerys finally decided to get on top is a right of passage scene for her. Understanding and developments of these characters just would not have been as conveyed if there were all done off camera. I suppose I could write around them if I wanted, but why? GOT is a adult tale, and its readers are expecting things a bit unfiltered.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 15, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> No I'm not missing the point, I'm just not articulating myself well. Sex is a big part of romance, love, wether it is a first kiss, or hand holding, or full on sex. Being physically intimate is a big part of love (even if it is only a first kiss). It would be challenging to write a romance plot line without some physical intimacy, and readers expect it. That is all I'm getting at.
> 
> Of course in Christian romance or sweet romance it is not there, which is why I said "first kiss" counts. Physical intimacy ). Often times the whole set up of the novel is to get to the first kiss by the end. For me that counts as "sex" for the general purpose of the argument.



Just to ensure I understand what you're getting at: the sex (or other intimate connection) is the symbol for love conquering all that stands between the lovers? Once the lovers get to the point where they can "connect" it means they've broken down the mental/physical/social/etc barriers that stand between them, and they "win" the romance.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 15, 2017)

It's the symbol. Exactly. The symbol could be many things. In Middle Grades you can't go further than a first kiss or a hand hold. You might go the entire book building up to that one moment. It's not that the plot revolves around a hand hold or a kiss, it is just the symbol for the relationship. "This is something more than friends." "I trust you in an intimate way" sort of thing. The physical connection is showing that there is no barriers anymore.



Svrtnsse said:


> and they "win" the romance.


 
Exactly. In traditional romance this may be sex. And it would be important it was sex. It might be the reader's expectation that it was sex, like in the Eloisa James book I posted above. In sweet romance, as Chessie says, or Christian romance, pre-marital sex is a huge no-no, so you have to do other things to keep the heat up, and show it is a romantic relationship in other ways, but physical intimacy is still important. There is still sexual tension, even if there is no sex.


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## Annoyingkid (Dec 16, 2017)

A. E. Lowan said:


> Let me give you a brief, fairly tame, example from the chapter I'm currently writing.
> 
> _Alerich peered into the refrigerator, curious. “I am game for anything sweet, and I like onions. I don’t know what a ‘Vidalia’ is, but I’m willing to try it.”_
> 
> ...



You just gave an example of vulnerable intimacy without sex, but you said sex establishes vulnerable intimacy. Which makes me wonder if the sex will just be more of the same, or actually bring something different to the table that this scene you quoted already brings, I don't really consider that scene tame. It borders on too much for me. Wondering what someone's mouth would taste like is weird. So I can imagine the actual sex scene would really be too much.


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## LWFlouisa (Dec 16, 2017)

I mean the whole premise behind Literotica, is reducing the taboo behind sex and making it OK even for literary fiction.:/


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 16, 2017)

I was going to say I haven't had any sex in any of the stories I'd written, but then the concept of the intimate connection came up and there's one of those that I can bring up as an example...

_Enar's Vacation_ is a story about a man who goes on vacation for the first time in decades. He's lonely and awkward and doesn't quite know what do do with himself. Throughout the story he ends up falling for a woman he meets and towards the end they find themselves stranded in an old brew house in the middle of a terrible storm. 

One thing leads to another and after a while they end up rather drunk and making out with each other. I could have faded out right as they start getting close to each other, leaving the reader to figure out the rest. However, the "rest" isn't obvious here.

As things get a bit heated the woman realizes that things are going a bit too fast and decides it's time to take it down a notch. Enar, the man, gets the idea that something's wrong, but doesn't quite understand what, since everything was so nice and wonderful just a moment ago. He wants to get back to that moment where everything was fine and awesome.

In that way, it's not actually a sex scene as such, but it does show the intimate physical connection between the characters, and it's necessary to show that in order to show what consequences it has for them. It starts out all sweet and pleasurable and lovely, and then it takes a turn that's hopefully unexpected without being unreasonable. 



Spoiler



What happens after the woman decides to pull out is that Enar decides the best way to woo her again is to sing her a song. He stands up, the booze goes to his head and he falls over and goes to sleep. This is where the scene fades out and the next chapter begins with a massive hangover (write what you know).


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## Chessie2 (Dec 16, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> No I'm not missing the point, I'm just not articulating myself well. Sex is a big part of romance, love, wether it is a first kiss, or hand holding, or full on sex. Being physically intimate is a big part of love (even if it is only a first kiss). It would be challenging to write a romance plot line without some physical intimacy, and readers expect it. That is all I'm getting at.
> 
> Of course in Christian romance or sweet romance it is not there, which is why I said "first kiss" counts. Physical intimacy ). Often times the whole set up of the novel is to get to the first kiss by the end. For me that counts as "sex" for the general purpose of the argument.


They don't wait an entire book to get there though. The goal isn't physical intimacy, it's emotional intimacy and the phtsical just shows that. You said it's all about the sex and it isn't. Many times you claim to know something inorder to give people advice and you don't. It's misleading.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 16, 2017)

Chessie, did you read any of my posts? I never once said the goal was the sex. I said the plot is the _romance _and sex is a part of that. In some types of stories it is an integral part. In some types of stories it is the best way of _showing_ the emotional development between the two characters. I never once said it was the goal.

As far as building up... did you not, yourself, say "slow burn"? Give the reader a little bit, but then take it away? Save it as long as you can? Is that not build up?

Good grief, I'm not arguing anything different than what you have been arguing. Taking personal attacks at my knowledge base is rude. I have been nothing but supportive of what you have been saying.

AnnoyingKid is arguing sex is almost never necessary. I'm supporting you in saying that in certain types ( not all types) romance, it is a super useful (often integral part) of showing character development. Then you attack me for supporting you.


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## LWFlouisa (Dec 16, 2017)

For context, what genre are we referring to here?


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## Annoyingkid (Dec 16, 2017)

I find it interesting that most, the vast majority of romances for movies and tv don't need to show the sex scenes, but for novels people argue that it's necessary. Well because the people in visual media get censored, they have to creatively write around it and try to find other ways to achieve what they're looking for. Anyone who writes a sex scene is inevitably going to divide their audience, into those who find it squicky and those who enjoy it. If you're not very good at it, it's going to sound creepy and weird when its translated into prose. Not that the act of sex is weird itself. Its obviously not. The best bet is to be metaphorical with it and not so physical. Like close ups of the guy's or girl's parting lips and dilated pupils, sounds like these people are being put under a microscope in an odd way. It comes across like an aftershave advert that has to cram as much sex appeal as it can into thirty seconds.


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## Thoras (Dec 16, 2017)

LWFlouisa said:


> For context, what genre are we referring to here?



If you're asking about it from the original post, then I stated there that this was for an adult fantasy novel. However I believe the debate have deviated slightly from that by now, I think some are talking about other genres as well.


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## LWFlouisa (Dec 16, 2017)

Thoras said:


> If you're asking about it from the original post, then I stated there that this was for an adult fantasy novel. However I believe the debate have deviated slightly from that by now, I think some are talking about other genres as well.



In my case, I'm wondering one would exclude from an erotica, or rather literotica.


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## Chessie2 (Dec 16, 2017)

I'm not attacking or arguing with you, Helio. I simply disagree in that sex is the end goal and that's what I interpreted from your statement I quoted. Disagreeing is not arguing or fighting.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 16, 2017)

Right, so I went back and read the original post now. 

If I'm reading a fantasy novel I usually won't expect there to be any detailed sex in the story. I'll expect there to be action and combat, a little bit of magic and a little bit of romance - the usual stuff. I don't expect to read detailed sex scenes, but unless I'm reading in public (like on a train or in a coffee shop or so) it probably won't bother me.
Where it might be an issue is if the sex scene feels out of place, like if the writer is putting it in just to get their jollies of, or to try and be cool/edgy. That's the kind of thing I'd have to judge on a case by case basis though. It's not a situation where I can just draw a line and say that everything on the far side is wrong, and on the near side it's right.

As for writing a sex scene and having your friends or family read it...
Yeah, that might be awkward, but it's part of being a writer. People will read your things and they will have all kinds of opinions on it. What I'm thinking is that if you can write the sex scene in such a way that it feels like a natural part of the story, then go for it. If you're unsure you can write it without it feeling gratuitous, then it may be easier to stay away from it.
My advice would be to write it, let it sit for a bit and then get back to it and see how you feel about it. If it works, it works. If it doesn't work, cut it out.

Again though, the awkward bit. If the scene is good and it fits with the story, it won't be awkward.


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## Thoras (Dec 16, 2017)

Svrtnsse said:


> Right, so I went back and read the original post now.
> 
> If I'm reading a fantasy novel I usually won't expect there to be any detailed sex in the story. I'll expect there to be action and combat, a little bit of magic and a little bit of romance - the usual stuff. I don't expect to read detailed sex scenes, but unless I'm reading in public (like on a train or in a coffee shop or so) it probably won't bother me.
> Where it might be an issue is if the sex scene feels out of place, like if the writer is putting it in just to get their jollies of, or to try and be cool/edgy. That's the kind of thing I'd have to judge on a case by case basis though. It's not a situation where I can just draw a line and say that everything on the far side is wrong, and on the near side it's right.
> ...



Thanks mate, you make some great points!


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## Chessie2 (Dec 16, 2017)

I would totally post one of my love scenes on here but they are not tame at all. I write very steamy scenes...lol.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 16, 2017)

Thoras said:


> Thanks mate, you make some great points!


Thanks, glad it helped. 


Chessie2 said:


> I would totally post one of my love scenes on here but they are not tame at all. I write very steamy scenes...lol.


That's what they're meant to be though - probably better to leave them in dark.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 16, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> I'm not attacking or arguing with you, Helio. I simply disagree in that sex is the end goal and that's what I interpreted from your statement I quoted. Disagreeing is not arguing or fighting.



I'm sorry if I overreacted Chessie. Thanks for the explanation  I see how my words could have been interpreted that way. I spent the better part of this morning going back over them. I really was just trying to support you and Lowen, who I know both write romance, and who have shown in many ways that these scenes are often the best way of approaching your character's inner conflict. I honestly meant no disrespect to you or your genre. I'm sorry if did not articulate myself properly and put out the wrong information. You are correct in that I don't know everything about every singe genre, though I do study, and I do try


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## A. E. Lowan (Dec 16, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> I'm sorry if I overreacted Chessie. Thanks for the explanation  I see how my words could have been interpreted that way. I spent the better part of this morning going back over them. I really was just trying to support you and Lowen, who I know both write romance, and who have shown in many ways that these scenes are often the best way of approaching your character's inner conflict. I honestly meant no disrespect to you or your genre. I'm sorry if did not articulate myself properly and put out the wrong information. You are correct in that I don't know everything about every singe genre, though I do study, and I do try


Helio, if you want to have fun sometime, there is a very old collection of essays, if you can get your hands on it, that does an excellent job of breaking down romance as a genre, from language usage to tropes.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Write-Ro...75608&sr=8-25&keywords=how+to+write+a+romance

One of the reasons my language tends to be a little flowery is because my mother was a romance writer and raised me on this book, and others like this one...

https://www.amazon.com/Romance-Writ...&sr=1-1&keywords=romance+writer's+phrase+book


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## Chessie2 (Dec 16, 2017)

Diana Galbadon's: I Give You My Body is a good resource as well.


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## Chessie2 (Dec 16, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> I'm sorry if I overreacted Chessie. Thanks for the explanation  I see how my words could have been interpreted that way. I spent the better part of this morning going back over them. I really was just trying to support you and Lowen, who I know both write romance, and who have shown in many ways that these scenes are often the best way of approaching your character's inner conflict. I honestly meant no disrespect to you or your genre. I'm sorry if did not articulate myself properly and put out the wrong information. You are correct in that I don't know everything about every singe genre, though I do study, and I do try


No worries! I apologize for coming across rude. I'm sorry! <3 I should have known you wouldn't say anything like that. I misread. 

I loved that quote, A.E. Lowan!


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## A. E. Lowan (Dec 17, 2017)

Here's a question on topic. I've finally arrived at the chapter where we get to have fun sexy time, and I have a lot of story going on with both characters - one's never done this before, the other has never let themselves be emotionally vulnerable before. So, to head hop, or to pick the one with the most story happening and stick with their POV? I normally head hop very little, but I've been known to do it when a scene calls for it. What do you guys think? Is head hopping distracting, or does it open up the perspective?


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 17, 2017)

A. E. Lowan said:


> Here's a question on topic. I've finally arrived at the chapter where we get to have fun sexy time, and I have a lot of story going on with both characters - one's never done this before, the other has never let themselves be emotionally vulnerable before. So, to head hop, or to pick the one with the most story happening and stick with their POV? I normally head hop very little, but I've been known to do it when a scene calls for it. What do you guys think? Is head hopping distracting, or does it open up the perspective?


Spontaneously, and without knowing any of the details of either the characters or your writing style I'd say to avoid head hopping in this case. On the top of my head I can think of two reasons.
1. The characters are already very close to each other physically and mentally and it may be tricky to keep track of who's head you're in.
2. You may be able to play up the tension between the characters if the mind of one of them is hidden from the reader. There may be an element of uncertainty which could be used to increase the tension in the scene.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 17, 2017)

A. E. Lowan said:


> Here's a question on topic. I've finally arrived at the chapter where we get to have fun sexy time, and I have a lot of story going on with both characters - one's never done this before, the other has never let themselves be emotionally vulnerable before. So, to head hop, or to pick the one with the most story happening and stick with their POV? I normally head hop very little, but I've been known to do it when a scene calls for it. What do you guys think? Is head hopping distracting, or does it open up the perspective?



I'm not sure about your question, but this is exactly the type of thing I mean when I talk about exploring vulnerability between characters.

I mean, personally I don't like head hopping, and even if we don't get into both characters' POV's we still have limited insight into what's going on with them emotionally.


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## Chessie2 (Dec 17, 2017)

I totally head hop. Fire me.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 17, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> Fire me.


I'm sure your stories are hot enough as they are already.


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## Chessie2 (Dec 17, 2017)

Svrtnsse said:


> I'm sure your stories are hot enough as they are already.


Writing sex isn't about being explicit, but you totally get that. In fact, I find some of the best love scenes are the ones where the author has you read between the lines.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 17, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> Writing sex isn't about being explicit, but you totally get that. In fact, I find some of the best love scenes are the ones where the author has you read between the lines.


Yeah, I get you. I'm just being silly.


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## A. E. Lowan (Dec 20, 2017)

I just finished the scene, and I ended up head hopping. So far, I'm pretty pleased with it. The language is consistent with the characters and my writing partners love it. Feeling very accomplished! lol


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## Russ (Dec 20, 2017)

A. E. Lowan said:


> I just finished the scene, and I ended up head hopping. So far, I'm pretty pleased with it. The language is consistent with the characters and my writing partners love it. Feeling very accomplished! lol



Now that you are finished that scene you can have a cigarette!


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## pmmg (Dec 20, 2017)

I was just thinking, wow, head hopping during sex, is that even possible? I don't know, but it sounds awesome already.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 20, 2017)

<insert bad pun here>


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## LWFlouisa (Dec 20, 2017)

pmmg said:


> I was just thinking, wow, head hopping during sex, is that even possible? I don't know, but it sounds awesome already.



First Person Omniscient having a good time I guess.


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## Chessie2 (Dec 20, 2017)

pmmg said:


> I was just thinking, wow, head hopping during sex, is that even possible? I don't know, but it sounds awesome already.


It is totally possible. Gotta have some finesse when you're doing it though.


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## pmmg (Dec 21, 2017)

Possible is it?

Well, Dragons do it hotter, I don't know about finesse. But if it leads to head hopping, well...maybe I've been doing it wrong.


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## A. E. Lowan (Dec 21, 2017)

Deep POV is how I do it, and making transitions very clear.

_Alerich glanced up and caught his reflection in the mirror. Well-bred, good-looking. He knew what he looked like to women. Had used his looks to get his way for years. He knew why his father had sent him. His lip curled up with revulsion. “‘I pray you, do not fall in love with me, For I am falser than vows made in wine.’”_

_Winter paced the bathroom floor as she brushed her hip-length hair. What was she doing? She had never invited a man to bed before, had only kissed Cian before tonight, and had only the most clinical idea of what came next.
_
Just like that, only with sexy bits.


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## LWFlouisa (Dec 21, 2017)

I use fiction as a coping mechanism for personal tragedy, cause I literally have nobody else that cares. Why should I censor my writing for something nobody else will even read to begin with?

Whether that be fantasy culture or sex, if that's your thing to write about. Mine happens to revolve around it.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Dec 27, 2017)

Svrtnsse said:


> <insert bad pun here>



I so badly want to make that pun too.


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## Annoyingkid (Dec 28, 2017)

Sex  in a pre contraception age carries certain ethical issues. If the character is male, if he's having sex with anybody, is he prepared to face the event of being a father? Same for women and motherhood. Are they willing or able to step up and do right by their potential kids? Are they willing to invest the money, time and effort? If not, that adds immaturity and neglectfulness to their list of character traits. Example. Satele Shan from Star Wars EU having sex against her Jedi training and the just abandoning and giving away her child out of self interest. To avoid exile. (Despite the fact that Arren Kae was exiled for the exact same thing). Yeah, that's not a noble thing to do. That makes her look like a deadbeat asswipe. It's one of the most effective ways to make me hate a character. Someone who wants to have their thrills and just duck responsibility.


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## A. E. Lowan (Dec 28, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> Sex  in a pre contraception age carries certain ethical issues. If the character is male, if he's having sex with anybody, is he prepared to face the event of being a father? Same for women and motherhood. Are they willing or able to step up and do right by their potential kids? Are they willing to invest the money, time and effort? If not, that adds immaturity and neglectfulness to their list of character traits. Example. Satele Shan from Star Wars EU having sex against her Jedi training and the just abandoning and giving away her child out of self interest. To avoid exile. (Despite the fact that Arren Kae was exiled for the exact same thing). Yeah, that's not a noble thing to do. That makes her look like a deadbeat asswipe. It's one of the most effective ways to make me hate a character. Someone who wants to have their thrills and just duck responsibility.


This raises excellent questions, although I will point out that there never has been a "pre-contraception age," simply times when contraception was more or less effective than other times, including our own. Egyptians used crocodile dung in shocking ways, and women have seemingly always understood that if they have sex at certain points in their cycles that they are more likely to get pregnant than in other times.

But, yes, there is the question of potential parental responsibility (Satele has always rubbed me the wrong way) and the after effects of sex, including disease. That way lies tasty conflict.


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## Russ (Dec 28, 2017)

A. E. Lowan said:


> This raises excellent questions, although I will point out that there never has been a "pre-contraception age," simply times when contraception was more or less effective than other times, including our own. Egyptians used crocodile dung in shocking ways, and women have seemingly always understood that if they have sex at certain points in their cycles that they are more likely to get pregnant than in other times.
> 
> But, yes, there is the question of potential parental responsibility (Satele has always rubbed me the wrong way) and the after effects of sex, including disease. That way lies tasty conflict.



You beat me to the point about "pre-contraception" times.  Well said.


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## Annoyingkid (Dec 28, 2017)

Those aren't reliable. A  fantasy protagonist that doesn't ask themselves if they want the person's kids, before having sex, barring some magical contraception, is setting themselves up for unlikability.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 28, 2017)

I'm currently reading Chuck Wendig's book Damn Fine Story, and I just got to the chapter about writing fight scenes, which is at the same time also the chapter about writing sex scenes. Wendig makes the argument that the two are technically the same. Both fighting and having sex puts characters in strong emotional states that they may not otherwise reach - for better and for worse.
They're both action scenes, and they can both have a profound impact on both the story and on the characters involved.

I also recall reading this article by CagedMaiden, which states basically the same thing: A Fine Line Between Love and Death - How to Write Love Scenes (it's a while since I read it in full)

So far I haven't had the need for a sex scene in any of my stories, but as a thought experiment I'm trying to think about how I'd do them. Depending on the characters involved the scenes would probably be very different. Let's see...
 - Emma's big dream in life is to settle down, have kids, and raise a family. Writing a sex scene for her might be focused on how she's finally on her way to realising that goal.
 - Roy is a disillusioned old wrestler. Writing a sex scene with him might be focused on how his partner isn't as good as the woman he loves might have been if it weren't for the fact she's dead.


Spoiler



She's not dead.


 - Alene is rootless and lonely. Writing a sex scene with her would probably be both creepy and unpleasant, but not because of the sex.
 - Enar is a lonely middle aged man. Writing a sex scene for him might be focused on how he's so happy to have finally connected with someone and how it's not too late for him to find love.


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## Chessie2 (Dec 28, 2017)

I write lots of sex scenes. Lots. Some are steamy. Others are more sensual. Some are closed door. Some are graphic. If anyone here wants samples to see how another writer does it or needs help writing these scenes please PM me. I'm open to helping. Writing sex is about emotions not motion by motion. I disagree that sex scenes are like fighting scenes. What the heck, Wendig?!



Svrtnsse said:


> - Roy is a disillusioned old wrestler. Writing a sex scene with him might be focused on how his partner isn't as good as the woman he loves might have been if it weren't for the fact she's dead..


Roy has a gentle side. A love scene with him would bring out a lot of things he's buried underneath.

About babies...let me just say that if I read about lovers who have sex and she doesn't end up pregnant down the road somewhere (if they don't use protection) then it's unrealistic to me. Granted, not all women can get pregnant. Not all couples can conceive. But in general, if it happens in fiction then somewhere down the line I'm fully expecting to see it happen.


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## A. E. Lowan (Dec 29, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> I write lots of sex scenes. Lots. Some are steamy. Others are more sensual. Some are closed door. Some are graphic. If anyone here wants samples to see how another writer does it or needs help writing these scenes please PM me. I'm open to helping. Writing sex is about emotions not motion by motion. I disagree that sex scenes are like fighting scenes. What the heck, Wendig?!


I actually agree with Wendig on this one, but some of our sex scenes can also get pretty rock n' roll. The intensity of emotion, the need for careful choreography, even some of the language involved... yeah, sex and fighting can definitely be seen as two sides of the same narrative coin, in my humble opinion.


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## Insolent Lad (Dec 29, 2017)

Though I have never included a sex scene that comes anywhere near being graphic in any of my published work (which does not mean it couldn't happen), I have written erotic stories featuring some of my characters as a way of exploring their backstory and better understanding who they are. It can be pretty revealing to figure out just how they approach and are affected by sex and/or love. These stories are going to remain on my computer, where they belong!


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 29, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> Roy has a gentle side. A love scene with him would bring out a lot of things he's buried underneath.


This is true, and I guess that makes an excellent point in case for actually doing such a scene. He could start out in the state I mention and then his gentler side pushes through - or the other way around. It could probably make for a really good piece of character development.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Dec 29, 2017)

Chessie2 said:


> Writing sex is about emotions not motion by motion. I disagree that sex scenes are like fighting scenes.



After reading Caged Maiden's article, I get the similarities. She's saying that fighting scenes shouldn't be just motion-by-motion either, but as much about the emotion involved.

One sex scene in my WIP is told from the viewpoint of a non-participating observer of the sex act. In this scene, I describe some of the motion-by-motion, and none of the internal emotions or thoughts of the participants, but the emotions of the observer are paramount in the scene. I can see how this scene would be similar to one in which the POV character observes two people fighting.


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