# Even if western-style dragons have been done to death, would you still use them?



## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

Do you think western-style (2-legged or 4-legged) dragons should be avoided because they have been done to death?

I am bothered when my world-built setting looks like another fantasy author's fictional universe;  such as when fictional universes look alike even in the slightest bit.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 12, 2017)

I would include dragons because they're awesome, regardless of how, or how much, they've been used by other writers and world builders in their own settings.

If it was important to me that my setting didn't have anything in common with any other setting I would analyse what role I want the dragons to play in the setting and then create something else that satisfies that role.


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## Dark Squiggle (Dec 12, 2017)

You can't do dragons to death in the same way you can't do heros or airships to death. People love them, they just fill some natural void in our souls, I don't know. But just like heros or airships, if they don't belong, they are just clumsy and awkward.


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## Russ (Dec 12, 2017)

Absolutely I would still use them, without hesitation.   It's like asking if six guns have been done to death in westerns.

Original worlds really get that way by being truly original in a few aspects.  Changing all aspects of the fantasy world can disorient the reader and overwhelm them, and you lose the ability to link into and exploit things that have built in resonances for the reader.  That is not saying that a complete ly unique world is impossible to do, it is just harder to make it satisfying for readers.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Dec 12, 2017)

Dragons are the bomb . com. I would use them without hesitation if the story/world called for it.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 12, 2017)

Absofreakinglutely!


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## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

Currently dragons (2-legged version only) are the only cliché in my fantasy setting I have so far, a little cliché in fantasy isn't bad isn't it?


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## Steerpike (Dec 12, 2017)

They can't really be a cliche in and of themselves. It's how you're using them. If _your_ dragons are cliches, then it may be a good idea to re-evaluate, unless the cliche is what you're going for.


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## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

Steerpike said:


> They can't really be a cliche in and of themselves. It's how you're using them. If _your_ dragons are cliches, then it may be a good idea to re-evaluate, unless the cliche is what you're going for.



I said they are cliché because they are the most ubiquitous mythical creatures in epic fantasy.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Dec 12, 2017)

Peregrine said:


> I said they are cliché because they are the most ubiquitous mythical creatures in epic fantasy.


To answer this we must first ask, what is a cliche. Google says, "a very predictable or unoriginal thing" is a cliche. Therefore, make your dragons unpredictable.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 12, 2017)

I'm not sure that something is a cliche just because it's common. The way I understand it, something becomes cliche when it's common AND used without thought in the same way its used everywhere else.

If I add a dragon to my story, and all that dragon does is sit on a treasure hoard and demand virgin sacrifice and eat the knights who come to slay it, then that would be a cliche regardless of how many legs the dragon has.


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## Steerpike (Dec 12, 2017)

Yes Brian Scott Allen , and the Cambridge Dictionary, in applying "cliche" to writing, says:

"an idea or expression that has been used too often and is often considered a sign of bad writing or old-fashioned thinking."

Again, a particular idea or expression of a dragon may be cliche. But not all ideas or expressions of dragons are cliche.


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## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> To answer this we must first ask, what is a cliche. Google says, "a very predictable or unoriginal thing" is a cliche. Therefore, make your dragons unpredictable.



Dragons are so predictable that they are a fantasy staple.


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## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> To answer this we must first ask, what is a cliche. Google says, "a very predictable or unoriginal thing" is a cliche. Therefore, make your dragons unpredictable.



What do you mean unpredictable, do you mean in physical appearance or something else? So if I made lizardly and wingless fire-breathing dragons does that count as making dragons unpredictable?


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 12, 2017)

Peregrine said:


> Dragons are so predictable that they are a fantasy staple.


That's not necessarily true. Compare the dragons of _World of Warcraft_ to the dragons of Harry Turtledove's _Darkness_ series, or the dragons of Tolkien's _Middle Earth_. They're all dragons, but they're vastly different in what role they play within the world. 
Sure, they all have roughly the same basic appearance, but there's a lot more to them than just the way they look.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 12, 2017)

Sure, dragons are a staple of fantasy stories, but that's not the same as being cliche. Swords, magic, and humans are all staples of fantasy stories. Not all characters have them, but they're common enough.


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## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

Svrtnsse said:


> Sure, dragons are a staple of fantasy stories, but that's not the same as being cliche. Swords, magic, and humans are all staples of fantasy stories. Not all characters have them, but they're common enough.



Are elves cliché or staple?


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 12, 2017)

Peregrine said:


> Are elves cliché or staple?


Elves as such are a staple, but whether they are cliche or not depends on how the writer designs them. In some settings they are cliches, while in other settings the writer has put a new and interesting spin on them.


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## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

This article inspired me to post this thread. What is your opinion on Patrick Rothfuss remarks?


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## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

Svrtnsse said:


> Elves as such are a staple, but whether they are cliche or not depends on how the writer designs them. In some settings they are cliches, while in other settings the writer has put a new and interesting spin on them.



What do you consider clichés about dragons in fantasy, give me some examples.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 12, 2017)

They are a staple. I love them. Sure, they are a bit cliche, but that is okay, I think? It's like the marshmallows in hot chocolate. You could replace them with something else, but why?

I like when writers use traditional dragons in untraditional ways, like Pete's Dragon. Seriously, who as a kid didn't wish a dragon lived in the woods who would look after them if they got lost?

I'm a bit obsessed with the Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild game right now, and the dragons in the game are sort of cool, benign creatures that float around Hyrule. I like the twist.


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## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> They are a staple. I love them. Sure, they are a bit cliche, but that is okay, I think? It's like the marshmallows in hot chocolate. You could replace them with something else, but why?
> 
> I like when writers use traditional dragons in untraditional ways, like Pete's Dragon. Seriously, who as a kid didn't wish a dragon lived in the woods who would look after them if they got lost?
> 
> I'm a bit obsessed with the Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild game right now, and the dragons in the game are sort of cool, benign creatures that float around Hyrule. I like the twist.



No matter if they are cliché or not, I would still use them in my fantasy setting.

But I am not sure if its better to subvert their physical appearance, such as making them wingless which is not edgy nor not bad (but I am worried if this is a subversion for subversion's sake) because the western-style (2-legged, 4-legged) dragons have been overdone.

Wingless dragons are cool, but I like winged dragons more even though they are overdone.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 12, 2017)

Peregrine said:


> This article inspired me to post this thread. What is your opinion on Patrick Rothfuss remarks?


I read the article, and what he's basically saying is that there are too many writers who just add some fantasy elements to the story without putting much thought or effort into it. I think this quote from the article sums it up pretty well:

"Dragons _aren’t_ trite. But a lot of people make them trite with bad storytelling."

That kind of sums up the issue. It's not the dragons as such that is the problem, or how they look, but rather how they are used by the person telling the story.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 12, 2017)

^^ This is what I was saying.

Yes they are cliche. Yes they have been done a billion times. Yes they are still cool. Like marshmallows.

If you throw old stale marshmallows in hot chocolate it won't be good. 

If you throw fresh new out of the bag puffy marshmallows in, yum


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## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

Svrtnsse said:


> I read the article, and what he's basically saying is that there are too many writers who just add some fantasy elements to the story without putting much thought or effort into it. I think this quote from the article sums it up pretty well:
> 
> "Dragons _aren’t_ trite. But a lot of people make them trite with bad storytelling."
> 
> That kind of sums up the issue. It's not the dragons as such that is the problem, or how they look, but rather how they are used by the person telling the story.



What are the bad/cliche ways of using a dragon?


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## Heliotrope (Dec 12, 2017)

I think it's all in the combo of lots of things. Execution is key. 

The hot chocolate metaphor goes both ways. If the hot chocolate mix is old, or the milk is sour then it doesn't matter how good the. marshmallows are. They won't save it. 

If the writing is poor, and the concepts of the battles are over done, and there isn't enough focus on characterization than it doesn't matter how cool the dragons are. And vice versa. 

So the above description is all fine and dandy. It sounds good. It is hard to tell either way without sampling the entire piece.


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## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> I think it's all in the combo of lots of things. Execution is key.
> 
> The hot chocolate metaphor goes both ways. If the hot chocolate mix is old, or the milk is sour then it doesn't matter how good the. marshmallows are. They won't save it.
> 
> ...



The first and foremost reason I have dragons is because I love winged two-legged fire-breathing dragons.

The secondary reason is because I wanted to have a flying mount. So I wanted a flying mount, that can be used both for aerial transportation and warfare and dragons fill that role perfectly.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 12, 2017)

Great. Then I don't understand the question? Use them.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 12, 2017)

Peregrine said:


> What are the bad/cliche ways of using a dragon?


I'd say it's the same with dragons as with everything else: the bad/cliche way of using something is to simply copy whatever everyone else is doing without putting any thought into it.

It's also not something where you can easily draw a line and claim the everything on the far side is cliche and everything in the near side is not. It's all about judgment calls for each individual setting.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 12, 2017)

Peregrine said:


> Do you think western-style (2-legged or 4-legged) dragons should be avoided because they have been done to death?
> 
> I am bothered when my world-built setting looks like another fantasy author's fictional universe; such as when fictional universes look alike even in the slightest bit.



This was your original question. You got a lot of different answers. At the end of the day you want to use them, so use them. They sound like they fit the bill for what you need. So who cares that Rothfuss says they are overdone?


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## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

Heliotrope said:


> I think it's all in the combo of lots of things. Execution is key.
> 
> The hot chocolate metaphor goes both ways. If the hot chocolate mix is old, or the milk is sour then it doesn't matter how good the. marshmallows are. They won't save it.
> 
> ...



I wanted to quit having the western-style dragons when I knew how overused they were in fantasy.
I can't resist having Western-style dragons in my setting.


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## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

Svrtnsse said:


> I'd say it's the same with dragons as with everything else: the bad/cliche way of using something is to simply copy whatever everyone else is doing without putting any thought into it.
> 
> It's also not something where you can easily draw a line and claim the everything on the far side is cliche and everything in the near side is not. It's all about judgment calls for each individual setting.



Sometimes when a thing becomes too popular, people start "hating" it and avoiding it at all costs, this is maybe the reason why Patrick Rothfuss doesn't want dragons in his novels.

I can't agree on dwarves, dwarves are cliché.


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## pmmg (Dec 12, 2017)

Yes I would use.

I am not sure I would avoid anything just because it thought of as cliché'. I think a good story trumps cliché.


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## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

pmmg said:


> Yes I would use.
> 
> I am not sure I would avoid anything just because it thought of as cliché'. I think a good story trumps cliché.



This.


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## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

Its interesting that Patrick Rothfuss targeted dwarves and dragons, because they happen to be my TOP 2 favorite creatures in fantasy.


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## Svrtnsse (Dec 12, 2017)

Peregrine said:


> Its interesting that Patrick Rothfuss targeted dwarves and dragons, because they happen to be my TOP 2 favorite creatures in fantasy.



They're just examples.
He didn't target dwarves or dragons. He targeted *bad use *of dwarves and dragons.


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## Peregrine (Dec 12, 2017)

Svrtnsse said:


> They're just examples.
> He didn't target dwarves or dragons. He targeted *bad use *of dwarves and dragons.



I got it.


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## Russ (Dec 12, 2017)

Humans are clearly over used in fantasy, you can't swing a dead dragon without hitting them.

PR's point in that interview was far subtler than what you are taking it as.  He was making a point about what fantasy really is, and how people began to think fantasy is just the trappings rather than the spirit or meaning of the genre.  He was right on that point.


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## Peregrine (Dec 13, 2017)

Russ said:


> Humans are clearly over used in fantasy, you can't swing a dead dragon without hitting them.
> 
> PR's point in that interview was far subtler than what you are taking it as.  He was making a point about what fantasy really is, and how people began to think fantasy is just the trappings rather than the spirit or meaning of the genre.  He was right on that point.



Was aware before you said it.


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## Gurkhal (Dec 14, 2017)

I would probably use them as it would save me lots of work. If I used say Chinese dragons then I would need to explain what they're all about while I can be fairly sure that my audience will connect the dots without me needing to go into as much info-dumping on them.


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## TheKillerBs (Dec 15, 2017)

Gurkhal said:


> I would probably use them as it would save me lots of work. If I used say Chinese dragons then I would need to explain what they're all about while I can be fairly sure that my audience will connect the dots without me needing to go into as much info-dumping on them.


I’m not sure Chinese dragons need any more infodumping than European dragons


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## Gurkhal (Dec 15, 2017)

TheKillerBs said:


> I’m not sure Chinese dragons need any more infodumping than European dragons



Well, I suppose I was a little Eurocentric when I wrote that. I do think however that dragons in their Western guise as monsters needs less introduction to a Western audience than what Chinese dragons would need in their cultural context to a Western audience. As I think that know dragons in China myths and folklore are seen as more favorably than in say Europe's folklore and myths.


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## Steerpike (Dec 15, 2017)

Even if you feel they need some explaining within the context of your story, don't make it an info-dump.


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## A. E. Lowan (Dec 15, 2017)

We are SO using dragons in our urban fantasy series. I think we have, like, 6 types: Western, Eastern, Middle Eastern/African, North American, South American (the Coatl dragon), and deep sea dragons.

Of course, our dragons can also drive.


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## Queshire (Dec 15, 2017)

Gurkhal said:


> Well, I suppose I was a little Eurocentric when I wrote that. I do think however that dragons in their Western guise as monsters needs less introduction to a Western audience than what Chinese dragons would need in their cultural context to a Western audience. As I think that know dragons in China myths and folklore are seen as more favorably than in say Europe's folklore and myths.


I have to disagree with this. The idea of the wise, good, talking dragons is pretty well established in the public conscious at this point. Or, at least to the point that communicating that would take about as much effort as communicating dragons as monsters. Hit that and then just give them a Chinese dragon style body.


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## S.T. Ockenner (Feb 4, 2021)

My dragons are intelligent and powerful beings, who have their own personalities and motivations, just like anyone else. They travel between dimensions, can shapeshift, and all have a unique magical 'breath'. For example, fire breath or bubblegum  or frogs. Even though dragons are scaly, they can still grow hair. I have a dragon character with bushy eyebrows and a beard with two mustaches (yes, TWO mustaches). Otherwise, they are mostly standard winged, four-limbed snake-like creatures.


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## Saigonnus (Feb 11, 2021)

In my opinion; like with many things depends on how you use them more than the thing itself. I have used them in a couple of different ways in a couple of short stories. One was based on a dream where dragons were perhaps twice the size of humans, and had to transmute into their smaller human form to live in their mountain warrens.

The other is a story where dragons are a part of the natural environment. They are carnivorous, the size of a horse, not magical, can't fly and have only highly corrosive saliva beyond the sharp teeth and claws. They live in small family pods and are often treated as a menace because they tend to cull livestock from nearby farms.


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## Snowpoint (Feb 12, 2021)

Dragons and Fantasy go together like Cats and the Internet. People love it.

Dragons are a blank slate. You can make them anything you want. The one thing the word Dragon implies is 'important'. Dragons can be large or small, domestic pets or world eaters, but they are never unimportant.

I'm working on a new project with Dragons. They stray far from the norm, but that's never been an issue with dragons.


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## Patrick-Leigh (Feb 14, 2021)

I'm actually planning on fusing the different styles of Eastern and Western Dragons to create some interesting hybrids for my flintlock fantasy story setting.  This is especially the case when it comes to Wyrms.  My thinking is that, in order to fly, they need a more lithe, streamlined body, which is more like what you see in Eastern Dragons.  So, instead of being these massive dinosaurs with wings, their bodies are slender, like a greyhound or a cheetah's would be.  Their built for speed and flight, are nimble and quick, not hulking masses of fire-breathing death that could not realistically get off the ground.


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## Eosphorus (Feb 14, 2021)

I would totally still use them, personally! It's not really the dragon (or the elf, for that matter) that matters. It's what you do with them. A mythical creature is just a tool, like everything else. What counts, what makes your work original, gripping, spellbinding, is what you do with them!


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## Aldarion (Feb 16, 2021)

Personally, I would like to see more Greek, Roman, Slavic, Celtic and Japanese dragons. Most modern dragons are taken from Tolkien, which means from Germanic and Christian traditions - the only thing which changed nowadays is morality (so instead of demons in dragon form we get actual animals who may be good as well as evil), but the rest of the mold is still there. Look at _Temeraire_ - it has dragons, but even Chinese dragons are basically no different from traditional Western dragon.


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## DavidTheSatyr (Feb 17, 2021)

I think dragons can still be used in new ways, and even if they can't, I'd still say that they're reliable in stories. They've been used countless times, but you can still try to do new things with them.


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