# SPOILERS: GRRM's "A Song of Ice and Fire"



## Philip Overby

*Note:  The title says SPOILERS. Read at your own risk.  The spoilers include all of the books written so far, ending with A Dance of Dragons*

This is to discuss George R.R. Martin's series A Song of Ice and Fire (the current books and future ones).  Feel free to discuss anything about the series in general without fear of spoiling anything.  This is a free discussion for those that have read the books.

Anyone that wants to start the discussion, feel free!  What did you like about the books?  What didn't you like?  What characters do you enjoy/don't enjoy/want to see die?


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## Nihal

Good, I think people have been wanting a topic like this for a while.

I propose we start with Dany. How do you feel about her? It's only me or anyone else feels hard to get into her character sometimes? I understand that sometimes it's useful to the author to step back while writing a POV and keep some facts, feelings and thoughts from the reader so he can surprise them a little later, but I often feel detached from her.


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## Philip Overby

I really like Dany overall, but she's probably my least favorite of the "main characters."  I think it has more to do with her being so far away from where most of the central action is going on.  I feel the same about Jon Snow sometimes because he's so far away from all the other characters, it's sometimes harder to get into what he's doing.  

I really loved Dany's arc in A Game of Thrones the most.  From a timid girl to a strong Khaleesi, her struggles with gaining respect and dealing with Viserys.  All of that made for an awesome arc.  However, I'm not sure any of her other story-lines have reached the same level as that first one did for me.


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## Sheriff Woody

Please place spoilers within spoiler tags for those of us who have not read every book yet. Thanks!


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## Sheriff Woody

Phil the Drill said:


> I really like Dany overall, but she's probably my least favorite of the "main characters."  I think it has more to do with her being so far away from where most of the central action is going on.  I feel the same about Jon Snow sometimes because he's so far away from all the other characters, it's sometimes harder to get into what he's doing.



They are actually my two favorite characters.

I love Dany not only because of her strong character arc and the avoidance of cliche regarding her development, but she offers the most _story potential_. 

By separating her from the main action, her situation is left wide open to develop on its own and work its way toward an eventual conflict with those who are involved in the main action directly. When that conflict does come about, it can potentially cause a greater impact on the overall story than those involved in the main action on their own. Her situation is utterly unique within that story's world, and I don't know anyone who doesn't want to see her (*spoiler for book one*: take her dragons to Westeros and start ****ing shit up!) <--- highlight to read.


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## Kit

THIS ENTIRE POST IS A SPOILER.







I'm dying to know who the other two riders of Dany's dragons are going to be. My vote is Tyrion (who actually had a conversation with one of the Stark kids in one of the earliest chapters about dreaming of riding dragons) and Bran.

I can't believe we're this far in and Dany hasn't even gotten to the damn CONTINENT yet. I don't see how he's going to wrap that up without rushing it.

I had a firey debate with one friend regarding whether it was ethical or not for Jon to leave the wall and try to rule the continent (or part of it).  I'm very serious about oaths, and I feel like since he took an oath, he can't ever leave the Night's Watch. My friend also felt that Jon shouldn't leave, but for a different reason- he felt that the Night's Watch needed Jon too badly. 

I want to know where Rickon is. We haven't heard a thing about him since he left Winterfell with Osha.

Sansa drives me crazy. I want to choke her.

My housemate thought I was nuts when I told him that Lyanna and Raegar are Jon's parents. Can I get a witness? 

Do you think the Hound is dead? I don't.


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## Philip Overby

The whole point of this discussion is to not worry about spoiler tags.  I just posted this new rule when it comes to discussion.  If you want to discuss individual books, start a new thread.  Any thread that is tagged SPOILERS, will in fact have spoilers.  This thread is for people who have read all the books (as I stated in the first post)  Check the new guidelines for that.  And please feel free to start a thread about each individual book if you'd like (for instance if you haven't read A Dance with Dragons or whatever) Here are the new guidelines concerning spoiler threads.  http://mythicscribes.com/forums/novels-stories/7712-rules-discussing-books-spoilers.html

EDIT:  Actually, I'll post a new thread now.


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## Sheriff Woody

Well that's no fun.


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## FatCat

Bran is gonna take control of one of the dragons, calling it now. And Jaime gets one too, only because that'd be awesome.


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## Philip Overby

Here's a thread where people who haven't read all the books can discuss without spoilers.   http://mythicscribes.com/forums/novels-stories/7717-grrms-song-ice-fire-spoiler-free.html#post100299Or if you want spoilers, you can put spoiler tags.  Having SPOILER in the title, means this discussion is for those who have read all the books and want to discuss the whole series up until now.  Thanks!


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## Philip Overby

It sort of makes sense for Bran to get a dragon I think as well because he uses Hodor and someone told Bran once that knights don't need to walk anyway (maybe Tyrion said that?)  

Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's parents?  Huh?  So that would make him...ohhhhhhhhh...

That does makes sense sort of.


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## FatCat

I think he'll do the whole warg thing and become the dragon, not ride it. Dany and Tyrion, will probably fill out the other two, just wondering what they'll do when the Whitewalkers make their move, capture Westeros or save Westeros!? They should just let the whole place freeze over, move to Valyria and call it a day. Hodor gets to come to.


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## Kit

Phil the Drill said:


> Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's parents?  Huh?  So that would make him...ohhhhhhhhh...
> 
> That does makes sense sort of.



Puh-LEEEZ, George's been bashing us over the head with it from the beginning!!!!!  Recall Lyanna's pleading with Eddard to promise her (to take care of her kid and keep it a secret), which he did. Recall the "story" Meera told Bran while they were on the run. I think Howland Reed knows EVERYTHING. I want to meet him.

Besides which, it would give Jon a claim to the kingship of the entire continent, and wouldn't that be interesting (whether it came to fruition or not).


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## Philip Overby

Sometimes I get lost with Bran's storyline, so maybe I just didn't pick up on it.  But it makes sense now.  But to have ANOTHER king vying for the throne?  I don't think that'll work so well at this stage in the game.  If he's going to finish in the next two books.  

Mainly, I want to see what happens with Tyrion and Dany, now that they are together in a way.  Is he going to be the adviser she's desperately needed?


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## Kit

It might work *best*- it could be argued that he has a better claim than anyone- to the entire enchilada.




Phil the Drill said:


> Mainly, I want to see what happens with Tyrion and Dany, now that they are together in a way.  Is he going to be the adviser she's desperately needed?



I dunno; Dany has been doing pretty well on her own hook- at least up until she she fell for Daario and her hormones pickled her brain.  

It really would be a crime to not have Tyrion in politics, though- he's so good at it.


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## Philip Overby

I think Dany has had her moments, but she tends to trust people too much.  Tyrion would be perfect for dealing with all those vipers.  Plus, I just have this image of he and Dany riding dragons and smoking everyone.  And then he makes some quip after roasting Cersei or something.  

And yes, from you earlier post, I'm sure the Hound will crop back up.  He became one of my favorites on the TV show and was always a sort of favorite in the books.


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## Shaun b.

I find Dany quite boring, I spent most of the last novel waiting for something massive to happen. It wasn't until the very end that I felt she had really advanced in her arc. Speaking of which, I think that when she returns from her casual jaunt she will do so at the head of a large host of Dothraki Screamers. One thing I do love about Dany are the characters that she is surrounded by, Some of the most flavourful I've encountered. 

As for Bran, I don't think he is destined to ride one of the dragons, I think he will rally the ancient races north of the wall. Perhaps I'm being short sighted and cant place him and Dany together. I think Bran's destined to sit as lord of Winterfell. 

I love Tyrion, really I do hes a wonderful character, and possibly one of the best men in the book, as far as good men go. Again, im not sure if he will ride a dragon, its kind of easy to fathom out and doesnt really go with the flow. I think when he meets Dany he will have to work very hard in proving his loyalty.


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## Philip Overby

It's fun to just speculate who will get dragons or anything like that.  I'm not sure where Martin is going with that, but being that one of the dragons is dead (I think?  Is that right?) then there may be some symbolism to that like with the five Stark wolves.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Phil the Drill said:


> It's fun to just speculate who will get dragons or anything like that.  I'm not sure where Martin is going with that, but being that one of the dragons is dead (I think?  Is that right?) then there may be some symbolism to that like with the five Stark wolves.



None of the 3 dragons have died yet.....


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## ThinkerX

One of the other sites I frequent is dedicated to 'Game of Thrones'.  Lots of posters who go over the books in exhaustive detail.  Based on things they've pointed out (or I spotted on my own) :



> I can't believe we're this far in and Dany hasn't even gotten to the damn CONTINENT yet. I don't see how he's going to wrap that up without rushing it.



I suspect she does not make it to Westeros, or arrives as something other than a conquorer.  Worth keeping in mind: the big delay with the last book coming out was GRRM wanting to 'solve' the situation in the slaver cities.  Much of the last two books have been dedicated towards setting up a gigantic confrontation there.  A confrontation with Dany as its centre.





> I want to know where Rickon is. We haven't heard a thing about him since he left Winterfell with Osha.



Skagos, isle of cannibles.



> Sansa drives me crazy. I want to choke her.



Once she completes her training with Littlefinger, I suspect her POV will become fascinating.


> My housemate thought I was nuts when I told him that Lyanna and Raegar are Jon's parents. Can I get a witness?


  A very common theory.



> Do you think the Hound is dead? I don't.



He's digging graves at a monastery near Saltpan.  Brienne saw him, but did not recognize him during her visit.

I don't know if you'd exactly call him 'alive', but Gregor Clegane is still...moving.


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## Devor

Dany was advised not to trust the Lion in that magic lady's dream sequence.  I think Tyrion will end up being one of her three betrayals.


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## Philip Overby

Oh yeah!  I need to reread the books again, I forgot about the betrayals.  Honestly there are certain key moments that stand out to me in the series so far, and other things I've forgotten about.

Moments burned in my mind:

1.  The Red Wedding-most awesome scene in recent fantasy literature, I think.
2.  Joffrey's wedding-what is it with weddings?
3.  Dany "hatching" the dragons
4.  Tyrion plugging his old man
5.  Ned...oh...poor Ned
6.  The wolf pup scene
7.  The Battle of Blackwater

Is it sad that most of the big moments I remember almost all involve people dying?  Well, I guess not, because they all had emotional weight, and that is why I kept reading!


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## Kit

Phil the Drill said:


> Moments burned in my mind:



Sam, when that horse came out of the woods with the rime on its coat and dragging its intestines behind it.

Lady's death (so monsterously unfair!!!!!!!!!!)

The Queen of Thorns and her ladies pumping Sansa for information while the fool sang that song about the bear and the maiden fair

Syrio's Last Stand

Barristan Selmy being dismissed from Joffrey's service, and skewering guards as he left the city (probably more guards than we knew, as I expect Cersei sent an assassin team after him just to clean up loose ends)

The Weasel Soup

The battle between the Mountain and the Black Viper

Tyrion and Cersei's meeting, the one where they threatened one another over supper


Podrick Paine saving Tyrion's ass in the Battle Of the Blackwater


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## kayd_mon

I hated Dany throughout the first book until the very end. Then I loved her until Dance of Dragons, where she is again reduced to a whiny little girl again. 

Honestly, I didn't catch onto Jon's possible parentage, but if that theory pans out, then I'll be disappointed. Making him a Targaryen doesn't make his accomplishments nearly as satisfying. 

Tyrion as Dany's advisor will be great. Can't wait! 

Arya's storyline is actually my favorite. I love her whole journey, and her training to be a Faceless (wo)Man is awesome. 

Jon, assuming he survives (which I'm sure he will) will likely be placed in a very powerful position in the endgame.

Dany and her dragons will win Westeros by roasting the Others, obviously. The intrigue, etc. is just to entertain us until the Others come through the Wall.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Syrio Forel - Arya's Bravosi "dancing master" when he takes on 4 Lannister armored men with nothing but a wooden sword...to protect Arya.
"The First Sword of Bravos does not run. Just so."


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## camradio

Kit said:


> T
> I can't believe we're this far in and Dany hasn't even gotten to the damn CONTINENT yet. I don't see how he's going to wrap that up without rushing it.
> 
> I had a firey debate with one friend regarding whether it was ethical or not for Jon to leave the wall and try to rule the continent (or part of it).  I'm very serious about oaths, and I feel like since he took an oath, he can't ever leave the Night's Watch. My friend also felt that Jon shouldn't leave, but for a different reason- he felt that the Night's Watch needed Jon too badly.
> 
> My housemate thought I was nuts when I told him that Lyanna and Raegar are Jon's parents. Can I get a witness?


I agree I am got so sick of her, her story is just dragging on.

Ive talked with people about Jon's Oath and here is one possible scenario. The oath is "shall not end until my death." He gets stabbed at the wall, a la Caesar, and is killed. However he is brought back to life by the red lady through the fire kiss thing. So he was at the wall until his death. Now he can leave.

R+L=J Rhagaer plus Lyanna equals Jon. This is a huge "conspiracy" on ASOIAF forums about this. I believe it.


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## Shaun b.

I don't even want to speculate what will happen to Jon, I certainly wasn't expecting what happened. Although does the priestess not say something along the lines of the Jon being reborn in fire?

I quite like the idea of the hound just melting away into obscurity. Heros and Villains don't always die those remarkable deaths, although when his brother resurfaces the hound may make another appearance, although that's terribly straightforward for GRRM.

I'm really enjoying Sansa at the minute, shes developing into a very rich character. Arya has one of the best plot lines although I cant work out where it's going, I'm quite happy just being dragged along on the journey. 

I'm interested to see what the Wildlings do after Jons assault, I find them fascinating.


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## Philip Overby

The most awesome comeuppances for me would be these:

Jaime is the one who actually finally kills Cersei.  I know, it's a stretch, but that would be amazing.  Jaime faces off with the Mountain or some such.  With one hand.  

I like the idea of Dany being involved with destroying the Others.  That makes sense.  That seems to be where the main conflict is heading.  All these undead folks walking around.

Arya gets to assassinate some people (maybe Melisandre or someone) and becomes like this badass faceless assassin. 

Those are just some speculations.  We'll see what REALLY happens later I suppose.


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## Kit

Phil the Drill said:


> The most awesome comeuppances for me would be these:
> Jaime is the one who actually finally kills Cersei.  I know, it's a stretch, but that would be amazing.



That would be nice. Cersei is quite the schemer, but she was an unbelievable idiot to alienate Jaime. That guy would have done anything for her- died for her without a moment's thought- and any emotional component aside, he is a very useful resource.


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## Kit

I really want Arya to get Nymeria back.


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## Philip Overby

Yeah, that's true.  Nymeria's been gone since A Game of Thrones, right?  That would be awesome to have Arya show up with the wolf and be like, "Now what?"


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## Devor

Phil the Drill said:


> Jaime is the one who actually finally kills Cersei.  I know, it's a stretch, but that would be amazing.



I don't think it's a stretch.  In fact, I think it's likely.  Cersei is afraid of a prophecy some witch woman made to her that refers to her "little brother" strangling her to death.  She thinks it's Tyrion, but Jaime is her younger brother, too.  They're twins, but she came out first.  And I can't see Tyrion strangling someone - but with only one hand, I can't see Jaime relying on a weapon besides his hand to kill.  So I think it'll be him.


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## Kit

Devor said:


> And I can't see Tyrion strangling someone - .



Tyrion has already strangled someone, did you forget?


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## Philip Overby

Not only did he strangle someone, he did it with a chain.  But, yeah, he only kills those that deserve it.  

If Jaime was the one who did the strangling, boy, would that be...something.  Jaime is a weird character for me.  I kind of want to see him completely redeem himself for all the horrible things he's done, but I get the sense as soon as he redeems himself, he'll go bye-bye.  A fitting, and tragic end for the Kingslayer I think.


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## T.Allen.Smith

I think he'll redeem himself only to be faced with another choice of whether or not to kill a king.... One that may be necessary while at the same time, destroy the redemption he earned.

Pure speculation however....


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## Devor

Kit said:


> Tyrion has already strangled someone, did you forget?



Yes, I did forget.


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## Kit

Phil the Drill said:


> Not only did he strangle someone, he did it with a chain.  But, yeah, he only kills those that deserve it.



I dunno, he alienated me a little by killing Shae. Yeah, she betrayed and turned on him, and yeah, it was very personal- but she was just a low-level pawn, and he knew that. I'm conflicted as to whether his reaction was- uh- overkill.

Dad, on the other hand... no ambivalence there. Sucka deserved what he got.




Phil the Drill said:


> Jaime is a weird character for me.  I kind of want to see him completely redeem himself for all the horrible things he's done, but I get the sense as soon as he redeems himself, he'll go bye-bye.



I think so too. He's one of those people that I hate one moment and sort of like the next. But there are some things you just can't come back from, and pushing a seven-year-old out of a tower window is one of them. He'll never redeem himself in my eyes from that.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Kit said:


> I dunno, he alienated me a little by killing Shae. Yeah, she betrayed and turned on him, and yeah, it was very personal- but she was just a low-level pawn, and he knew that. I'm conflicted as to whether his reaction was- uh- overkill.
> 
> Dad, on the other hand... no ambivalence there. Sucka deserved what he got.



I think the reaction was supposed to be viewed as overkill. It was a crime of passion brought on by a lifetime influence, stemming from the early period in Tyrion's life where his father used a whore against him.... Remember when he confided in Shae that he was tricked by his father, as a young man, into loving and marrying a whore?

Shae's knowledge of that event made her betrayal worse.


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## Devor

Kit said:


> I think so too. He's one of those people that I hate one moment and sort of like the next. But there are some things you just can't come back from, and pushing a seven-year-old out of a tower window is one of them. He'll never redeem himself in my eyes from that.



I find it hard to accept his "redemption" when so much of it is based on explaining the Kingslaying title, which has nothing to do with why in Game of Thrones we the readers come to hate him so much.  He pushed Bran out of a window, and he ordered the deaths of Jory and the rest of Ned's men.  He's talked a little about Bran, but we're just supposed to forget that he killed the others.

Okay, he kinglsayed with purpose and is working on his anger management issues.  He's still a hot-headed killer.


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## Kit

Devor said:


> I find it hard to accept his "redemption" when so much of it is based on explaining the Kingslaying title, which has nothing to do with why in Game of Thrones we the readers come to hate him so much.



I think that that particular slaying was actually *very* important, both in terms of his personal development and how readers and other characters view him.

Oaths are very serious things to some people. He took a sacred oath to protect his king with his life, then betrayed oath, king *and* the Gods. Betraying an oath is in a sense betraying yourself (your integrity). Betraying your king can be viewed as betraying the entire country and everyone in it. betraying the Gods- many people think there is absolutely nothing worse you can do than that.

One might think that the fact that the king in question was crazy and evil lets him off the hook... but I'm not sure it does, fully. I think some people will always view him with at least a little suspicion and contempt for breaking his sacred oath. I am convinced that he himself is one of those people.


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## Kit

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I think the reaction was supposed to be viewed as overkill. It was a crime of passion brought on by a lifetime influence, stemming from the early period in Tyrion's life where his father used a whore against him.... Remember when he confided in Shae that he was tricked by his father, as a young man, into loving and marrying a whore?
> 
> Shae's knowledge of that event made her betrayal worse.



I remember all of that, and I really sympathize with Tyrion. He has had it bad; really really bad.

Yet the fact remains that we all know- and Tyrion did too- who was really behind his climactic downfall. He was *mostly* p***ed at Cercei and Pops, and took it out on Shae (and Pops). Again, Shae was just a pawn. A cheap backbiting b****, certainly- she really kicked him while he was down- but I'm not sure the scope of her role in the machinations deserved her fate.

I *love* Tyrion; seriously, I would have married the guy myself before he did that.... but that particular act made me recoil somewhat. Maybe I'm expecting too much of him to have expected him to handle that better... but I guess I did expect it. When I really like a character, I feel sorta personally betrayed when they fail to live up to what I expect of them.


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## Devor

Kit said:


> Yet the fact remains that we all know- and Tyrion did too- who was really behind his climactic downfall. He was *mostly* p***ed at Cercei and Pops, and took it out on Shae (and Pops). Again, Shae was just a pawn. A cheap backbiting b****, certainly- she really kicked him while he was down- but I'm not sure the scope of her role in the machinations deserved her fate.



She deserved it less than the father but more than, say, the harpist he ordered to be boiled in stew.


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## Kit

Devor said:


> She deserved it less than the father but more than, say, the harpist he ordered to be boiled in stew.



Agreed. Although with the blackmailing harpist, it was more about practicality- and trying to protect his love- than pure vengeance. (Does that make it better or worse?)


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## Philip Overby

Going back to Jaime, when he killed the Mad King, he was burning people alive.  To not stop him would have been worse.  But it goes back to that oath.  I think Jaime has the heart of an honorable knight in some ways.  Pushing Bran out the window was his way of defending his "lady love."  He is a knight, but his morals are all out of whack.  Maybe his current arc is leading him to something grander.  I agree, it's hard to forgive someone who pushed a boy out a window.  But to see him try to redeem himself might be worthy of reading.

With Tyrion, the whole back story about his marriage to the prostitute and then Shae revealing she was "in on it" the same as his first wife, it was definitely a moment of uncontrolled rage.  When he plugged Tywin I think it was calculated and clear-headed.


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## Kit

Phil the Drill said:


> Going back to Jaime, when he killed the Mad King, he was burning people alive.  To not stop him would have been worse.  But it goes back to that oath.  I think Jaime has the heart of an honorable knight in some ways.  Pushing Bran out the window was his way of defending his "lady love."  He is a knight, but his morals are all out of whack.  Maybe his current arc is leading him to something grander.  I agree, it's hard to forgive someone who pushed a boy out a window.  But to see him try to redeem himself might be worthy of reading.



Yes. He understands loyalty and strives for it. He has been unquestioningly, completely loyal to Cersei. As I said before, he would have done anything for her, would have died for her without a thought. I think it's likely she ordered the killing of Eddard's men... or at the very least, Jaime knew her well enough to know it would be what she would want done. (Heck, he has never even slept with anyone but her, and you can bet every girl in that realm has been trying to get into his pants since he hit puberty.)

He's sullied himself irredeemably in her service, and he knows it- yet always came back for more- and then she discarded him like garbage. He's been playing the part of the Golden Hero all his life, while feeling more and more like a fraud.  His fascination with/hatred of Brienne is easy to understand. She's everything he has tried so hard to be, but is not.



Phil the Drill said:


> With Tyrion, the whole back story about his marriage to the prostitute and then Shae revealing she was "in on it" the same as his first wife, it was definitely a moment of uncontrolled rage.  When he plugged Tywin I think it was calculated and clear-headed.



I dunno; I recall the Shae-killing scene as reading pretty cold. If he had dashed across the room and stabbed her in the heart the second he heard her voice, that would have been uncontrolled rage. If anything, he seemed somewhat numb by that time. In fact, when he heard her voice, I clearly recall him narrating something like, "That might have hurt, if I still had any feelings left."


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## Philip Overby

I think you're right about Tyrion.  It's been a while since I've read the books, so my memory is a bit foggy.  And yeah, Jaime is really more complicated than I thought he would be.  Which has made for interesting reading.

Something fun I found on the internet and could be worth a try is this:  Can you name the POV Characters from the 'A Song of Ice and Fire' Series? | Online Games & Trivia by Sporcle

I got a score of 49.  It's really hard to remember all of the POV characters, honestly.  Can anyone get higher?  

Also, do you think the increased number of POVs from each book is good for the series or a detriment?


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## Kit

Dang! You beat me. I only got 45. I remembered a couple more characters, but not enough of the full NAME (like, I tried "Sixskins" but it wouldn't take it because I couldn't remember "Varamyr").  I also wasted almost a full minute because I could not seem to spell Caitlyn closely enough for it to accept it.


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## Philip Overby

I actually forgot Sam, which was pretty dumb.  

I also had trouble thinking of people like Aerys Oakheart, Areo,  and other really minor characters.  I think I tried Sixskins and it worked for me.


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## Devor

Phil the Drill said:


> Also, do you think the increased number of POVs from each book is good for the series or a detriment?



I definitely felt that several could have been combined in the last two books.  We didn't need three people from Dorne - the princess would have been enough.

I scored 48, but only because I misspelled Victarian, typed Oakshield instead of Oakheart, and Kevin instead of Kevan.


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## Kit

Devor said:


> I definitely felt that several could have been combined in the last two books.  We didn't need three people from Dorne - the princess would have been enough.
> .



Increased POV's: It's been interesting to finally see what some of the characters we've followed from the beginning have been thinking/feeling. I was especially excited to see Barristan Selmy, because he's a big favorite of mine. It does feel like the POV's have been- SPRAWLING- a bit in the most recent two books, though.

It's hard for George to do any wrong with this, though... he's got us all hooked right through the gills!


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## kayd_mon

I like most of the added POVs, especially Cersei. I was audibly excited when I first saw her POV come up, becauseI always wwanted to know what was going on in her head. Also, as we continue to follow Sansa, she keeps growing as a character. I can't wait to see what she does next.


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## Philip Overby

I too loved Cersei's POVs.  I think that was a good addition.  Someone like Crow's Eye (I think?) I'm not so sure about yet.  

Can someone give me a refresher course on Sansa?  I can't seem to recall what she's been doing.  Is she still in the Eyrie with Littlefinger?


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## Devor

Phil the Drill said:


> Can someone give me a refresher course on Sansa?  I can't seem to recall what she's been doing.  Is she still in the Eyrie with Littlefinger?



Littlefinger and Sansa left the Eyrie, but only to go to a different castle in the region for the winter.  She's undercover, and he's giving her a lot of advice on how to manipulate the game.  And he wants to wed her to "Harry the Heir," who is in line as successor to the Eyrie, claiming that when _Sansa Stark_ shows off her Winterfell colors at the wedding, the entire region will rally around her and help her reclaim the North.


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## kayd_mon

To the best of my recollection, she's still with Littlefinger.  Taking care of Robert Arryn helped her grow considerably, and she's still at it.  I can't seem to remember the cliffhanger from her last chapter, but I remember really wanting to know what she ends up doing.

I never got into most of the Ironborn chapters.  They always seem like they're just pests along the way to the endgame.  I don't see any of them, with the exception of maybe Theon, being very important in the grand scheme.

Oh, did anyone else think that the whole arc with the Dornish prince and company (I seem to forget his name at the moment... was it Quentyn?), the ones who joined the Windblown sellswords... did anyone else think that was a relatively pointless arc?  I mean, other than remind us that Dany's dragons are good at roasting things, it seemed a certainly doomed plan, and it went completely as expected.


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## Mindfire

Devor said:


> And he wants to wed her to "Harry the Heir," who is in line as successor to the Eyrie, claiming that when _Sansa Stark_ shows off her Winterfell colors at the wedding, the entire region will rally around her and help her reclaim the North.



More likely she'll be killed immediately afterward, because that's how Martin rolls.  The biggest of all spoilers, straight from the horse's mouth:



> No one will be alive by the last book. In fact, they all die in the fifth. The sixth book will be just a thousand-page description of snow blowing across the graves...
> 
> -GRR Martin


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## Devor

Mindfire said:


> More likely she'll be killed immediately afterward, because that's how Martin rolls.  The biggest of all spoilers, straight from the horse's mouth:



He lies.  I'm sure of it.


Obviously if they have graves, someone had to be alive to bury them, right?  Right . . . ?  _Right?!_


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## Mindfire

Devor said:


> He lies.  I'm sure of it.
> 
> 
> Obviously if they have graves, someone had to be alive to bury them, right?  Right . . . ?  _Right?!_



Perhaps the Others have a sensitive side? Or maybe there's only one survivor left to dig all the graves. He buries everyone, digs a grave himself, and then falls in it and dies from the exhaustion.


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## Kit

Devor said:


> And he wants to wed her to "Harry the Heir," who is in line as successor to the Eyrie, claiming that when _Sansa Stark_ shows off her Winterfell colors at the wedding, the entire region will rally around her and help her reclaim the North.



I would never trust what that guy *says* he wants.

He wants Sansa for himself.


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## Devor

Kit said:


> I would never trust what that guy *says* he wants.
> 
> He wants Sansa for himself.



He may want both.  I don't think it's that simple, though.  Littlefinger loved Catelyn, so I think his feelings for Sansa are very mixed.


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## Kit

He is devious enough that he'll have schemed out a way to have his cake and eat it too. Ain't NO WAY he's going to hand over a virgin Sansa to Harry or anyone else, that's for darn sure.


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## Philip Overby

That's funny about the wind blowing over graves.    That would be awesome.  I would totally pay for that.  

I expect some major deaths in the next book for sure.  It seems like A Dance of Dragons didn't really have any "moments" like some of the other books had.  There's the dragon killing everyone at the gladiatorial games, and Cersei's humiliation, and Jon Snow's "death," but I can't think of any really big moments like Ned's execution, the Red Wedding, or others.


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## Mindfire

Watching Game of Thrones Season 2 Episode 10. The way Theon Greyjoy gets unceremoniously conked on the head in the middle of his battle cry after he makes his grand death-and-glory speech is HILARIOUS.


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## Devor

Mindfire said:


> Watching Game of Thrones Season 2 Episode 10. The way Theon Greyjoy gets unceremoniously conked on the head in the middle of his battle cry after he makes his grand death-and-glory speech is HILARIOUS.



Rest assured, the hilarity continues in book 4:  The adventures of Reek!


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## Mindfire

Also one of my favorite scenes:


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## Philip Overby

I couldn't have imagined I'd like Tyrion more on the show than I do in the book, but Peter Dinklage is really amazing at that character.


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## Mindfire

The actor who plays Joffrey is amazingly villainous. I never thought I'd enjoy hating a character so much. He deserves kudos for that.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Yes Joffrey is a disgusting character. Many fans understandably loathe him. His purpose though, is to act as a foil the the others in the cast who fulfill the morally grey aspects of GRRM's world. It's extremely effective in my opinion.


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## Philip Overby

Yeah, I think Joffrey is the only character who has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.  At least Cersei has her love for her children and her "cheekbones" as Tyrion said.  

Several people who I have got to watch the show are saying, "I can't wait until that little jerk dies."  

You're right, the actor playing him is perfect.  When he's a sadistic boy playing at king and when he's sniveling and cowardly, he's just spot on.


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## Xela

Finally found the thread about my absolute favorite series.  Just wondering what the level of fandom is here. Are we all up on Frey pies, the gravedigger, unicorns and cannibals, the maester conspiracy theory, and all of the other speculative theories?


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## Mindfire

...

Nope.


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## Xela

Kit said:


> Dang! You beat me. I only got 45. I remembered a couple more characters, but not enough of the full NAME (like, I tried "Sixskins" but it wouldn't take it because I couldn't remember "Varamyr").  I also wasted almost a full minute because I could not seem to spell Caitlyn closely enough for it to accept it.


Got 61. Forgot Jon Connington, which is horrendous because I really like his character and his last chapter is simply vivid.


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## Devor

Xela said:


> Finally found the thread about my absolute favorite series.  Just wondering what the level of fandom is here. Are we all up on Frey pies, the gravedigger, unicorns and cannibals, the maester conspiracy theory, and all of the other speculative theories?



I think I understood all of that.

. . . . yum, pie.


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## Xela

Mindfire said:


> ...
> 
> Nope.


Ah, really? :/

Frey pies: Manderly had those Frey envoys killed on the journey to Winterfell for Ramsay and "Arya" [Jeyne Poole]'s wedding. Then served them in a pie similar to the song about the Rat Cook in the Nightfort. It's why he's so amused and lustily eating his pie while serving living Freys the remains of their relatives. It's one of those brilliant subtle details that Martin does so well (Connington's sexuality, Blackfish's sexuality, Cersei threw her friend into the well, etc.)

The Gravedigger: While visiting the Quiet Isle in A Feast for Crows, Brienne briefly views a new brother, very large with a distinct limp, digging a grave with his back to her. Septon Meribald's dog, named Dog, reacts quite positively to this man as they walk past. Later, the Elder Brother tells her repeatedly how The Hound died, not that Sandor Clegane is dead. This gravedigger is widely believed to be him. Where he goes from here is another theory altogether.

Unicorns and Cannibals: Simply that Rickon and Osha are on the isle of Skaagos where cannibals and unicorns are said to roam. There's a number of small clues to this, crashed ships viewed by Sam on his way south from Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, the fear in Davos as he thinks about where Manderly is sending him. There's also more subtle clues to the chance that Ned Stark's lineage on his mother's side may come from Skaagos (I think it's believed to be his grandmother, but I can't recall) which lends more credit to this being Osha's destination with Rickon. Further thought that Luwin told her where she might take him.

The Grey Sheep: Basically that the maesters are directly opposed to the magical, inexplicable things in the world and worked to stop them. In particular, they were instrumental in the eventual death of all of the dragons. Tons of evidence for this, from Cressen and his hatred for The Red Woman, Luwin and his talks/refusal to accept Bran on his word about his dreams, the words of Archmaester Marwyn and how he immediately sets out for Dany upon hearing what Sam had to say, Alleras (who is actually Sarella the Sand Snake) and what she's doing in Dorne, whatever Jaqen's actual name is and what he wanted within the Citadel and why he's still pretending to be Pate (Sam's chapters in book six will be extremely interesting), how the dragons don't grow to their full size when cooped up and yet earlier kings did just that most likely after receiving counsel from their trusted maesters, etc. I can go on but suffice to say it seems like they are directly opposed to magical forces and will not be of any help to Dany when she arrives or to anyone with magic on their side (Stannis, Euron, Cersei/Tommen once Robert Strong is fully publicized).

What I love about these books and the world is how wonderfully intricate it all is. There's so many fascinating theories and each reread I find something new.


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## Mindfire

Today's Game of Thrones episode was disappointing. I wanted to see Joffrey die.


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## Philip Overby

Yeah, I heard it was a little disappointing when put up against the previous episode. It's most likely coming in Season 4. I hope they record people reacting to that too!


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## SeverinR

(Watched season 1&2, some parts of three, reading book 1.)

Arya(favorite char)- needs Nemeria and Needle back and become a facelss one.

Sansa-needs to learn the less honorable side of dealing with royalty (Littlefinger would be a very good teacher.)

Bran- does seem to be expanding his potential, and has been lead away from his family path.

Jamee(tied for favorite dark character): major setback with losing the hand, but I won't mark him off just yet. Will probably never become a good character b/c Bran.

Tyrion-(2nd fav) loves the politics of Kingslanding which will probably be the end of him.  Interesting coupling, Sansa and Tyrion.  Clean politician and the true politician wed.

Dany: (third favorite) started from a royal slave with no training in leadership, but has grown more then any other character. Her story is the slowest because she started so far behind and must let her babies grow into the beasts they need to be to take on armies.

Hound: (tied for favorite dark character) there is an honor about him to protect the Stark girls and underdogs, but still will kill when told, his killing the butcher's son will probably never allow him to be totally honorable.  Unless Arya does it, I hope Jamiee dies first. 

There seems to be a love hate relationship between Arya and the hound. They let their guard down and almost be civil, then they spit in the others eye with venom.

Jeoffry: has lived way to long and needs to be killed.  maybe even a Lord Farkwad ending?  I did love the King being sent to bed without his supper by his grandfather.

Favorite quotes:
"Most girls are idiots."
"no my Lord, anyone can be killed."
"One day, I am going to stick a blade in your eye and out the back of your skull."
"Every dwarf is a bastard."


Would like to see Tyrion, Arya and Dany work together, don't think they will each ride a dragon, but they would make a very tough team, even more if Arya becomes a faceless.

Can't wait to see them die:
Jeoffry(crazy spoiled incestial bastard), Cerci, Tywin Lanister, the host of the Red wedding,

Just realized, When Tywin told Tyrion he did his great deed in Tyrion's life for not leaving him in the forest, was not because he was a dwarf but because he was the cause of his wifes death.
(Dwarfism doesn't show until growth is slowed in a child (5-8yrs old). (GRRMartin might have not realized this, but it changes the reason for wanting his son dead from the start.)


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## SeverinR

never mind the last statement, there is a type of dwaarfism that does show at birth.
Thanks to growth hormone, my daughter is not a dwarf...by 1 inch.
Dwarfism is 4'10" or less. She is 4'11".

So do you think Tywin considered killing baby Tyrion for his birth defect or for killing his wife in childbirth?


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## ThinkerX

> "Every dwarf is a bastard."





> So do you think Tywin considered killing baby Tyrion for his birth defect or for killing his wife in childbirth?



Consider those statements for a bit.  Think about Tywin's position/office at the time of Tyrons birth, think about who he answered to, and think about his ambitions for a bit.


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## Kit

ThinkerX said:


> Consider those statements for a bit.  Think about Tywin's position/office at the time of Tyrons birth, think about who he answered to, and think about his ambitions for a bit.



Oh..... I think that's a bit of a reach, but it would certainly open up several interesting metal containers of squiggly legless creatures, wouldn't it?


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## ThinkerX

> Oh..... I think that's a bit of a reach, but it would certainly open up several interesting metal containers of squiggly legless creatures, wouldn't it?



It has been put forth with great seriousness more than once.

Given the dwarfs situation at the end of Book V, this being true might be the only way he survives Book VI.

A couple other predictions:

Dany looses a dragon to the ironmen in Book VI...who in turn loose it to Jon Snow (skin shifting) later on. 

The Wall comes tumbling down...probably as a direct result of Ramsay Boltons actions (he is evil enough, short sighted enough, and arrogant enough to do such a thing).

The fleet from Volantis mutinees upon approaching Mereen...giving Dany the ships she needs to cross the ocean.  Volantis itself goes up in flames (civil war/slave revolt).


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## SeverinR

Mindfire said:


> Today's Game of Thrones episode was disappointing. I wanted to see Joffrey die.



Wait, I thought GOT was over for this season? rerun?
I thought the episode after red wedding was the end of the season?

I too want Joffrey dead. Hmmmmm

Who would you love to see be the one to kill Jeoffrey?
So many people, have good reasons.


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## Steerpike

SeverinR said:


> Who would you love to see be the one to kill Jeoffrey?



Sansa.

/10char


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## SeverinR

Probably the one with the most reasons, but so far this kitten hasn't found her claws...yet.

I think almost any Stark would have many good reasons, but so few have claws.


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## SeverinR

Reading book 1,
Wow,
I was amazed.
GRRM failed in one scene.

He had a neon sign flashing in the book I'm reading.  Boom mike in the scene, star wearing a wrist watch.

Lord Baelish was fiddling with his pen.  Several sentences later it was a plume.
(R.Stark holding court listening to complaints of the raids, while the King is out hunting.)


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## Kaellpae

Anybody else wanting to hear a Hodor chapter? I would love to hear his views of the world.


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## Kit

I think it would consist entirely of "Hodor, Hodor, Hodor."


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## SeverinR

Kit said:


> I think it would consist entirely of "Hodor, Hodor, Hodor."



Yes, he is a man of few words.  He says Hodor alot...What if Hodor means "idiot" and he just says it with a smile?
Three people in the room, some one says his name, he looks at each and says Hodor. "Idiot, idiot ,idiot."

Flying home to Arizona, might get a chance to read more then a chapter on the plane.


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## faze

I hate these books, struggled to get through book one and then got to the beginning of book four (I think??) to find that half the characters had been killed off with no explanation, I thought I had missed a book!

refused to read any further and won't ever watch the TV adaptation.


----------



## teacup

Faze, you definitely missed a book in that case. There is a lot of killing off in book 3 (part 2, I think.)
I like the books and the show, and would say to at least give the show a try, but it's your call 


Did someone say Hodor chapter?


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## Chessie

faze said:


> I hate these books, struggled to get through book one and then got to the beginning of book four (I think??) to find that half the characters had been killed off with no explanation, I thought I had missed a book!
> 
> refused to read any further and won't ever watch the TV adaptation.


I never made it past the first book. Although his writing is fantastic, the story itself created a cloud of nausea in my belly and gave me nightmares. Ok, maybe not that bad.


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## faze

I went back to check and it was indeed from book three to book four, from Storm of swords to A feast for crows.


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## Eagle

faze said:


> I went back to check and it was indeed from book three to book four, from Storm of swords to A feast for crows.



There was Storm of Swords 1: Steel and Snow and 2: Blood and Gold. Are you sure you didn't skip B&G? Because there are no unexplained deaths if you didn't.


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## faze

well that would appear to be the case!


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## SeverinR

Just finished Book 1.
Loved the funeral and birth by fire at the end.


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