# My Query for an Editor



## BWFoster78 (May 11, 2015)

One of the biggest challenges of self publishing is finding the right professionals that can help you within you budget.  The post below is my proposed query for editors.  Assuming I meet my writing goals this week, I'm going to post it on Elance next Monday.

I'd welcome any thoughts.

Dear Potential Future Editor,

I’m looking for help with my novel, Rise of the Mages. Here are some of the particulars:

-	Genre — epic fantasy
-	Length — 120k to 125k
-	Budget - $600 to $800 (if I’ve done my math right, that’s around 6 cents/word or $1.45/page)
-	Schedule — I’ll have the manuscript to you on June 1, and I want the edits returned to me on July 1.

What I’m looking for (uh, that for which I am looking?):

I went back and forth a bunch of times on if I wanted another developmental/structural edit or a copy edit or what. Then, I had a revelation — you’re the expert on editing, not me.  You tell me what kind of edit I need.

What I need is an editor who can help me accomplish my goals, whatever form that may take:

Goal 1 — I want to get my readers fired.

Picture this: it’s midnight, and you’ve got to get up at 5am to go to work. But you’re reading a book. A good book. You say, “One more chapter.”  Before you know it, it’s 3am.

I want my book to be that much of a page-turner.

Goal 2 — I want to embarrass my readers.

Have you ever been reading in an airport and started laughing so much that everyone looked at you funny? How about that time at the beach when you had to choke back sobs (not that I, as a big, strong man have ever experienced such…)?

I want my book to make my readers feel that much.

Few books I’ve read have met those criteria, and I fully understand that, as a debut author, mine is unlikely to reach quite those heights.  The important thing is that my writing moves in that direction.

Do you possess:

-	The knowledge of how my objectives are accomplished on a theoretical basis? AND
-	The experience to determine what practical edits can be made on my book that will most help it accomplish them?

If so, you are probably my future editor. Please take a look at my attached first chapter and provide me your thoughts. I’ll make my determination based on who I think will best be able to help my book within my allotted budget.

Thanks.

Brian


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## buyjupiter (May 11, 2015)

Ok. First thing that popped out at me was the rate you're willing to pay. I googled "freelance editing rates" and found the following rates:

Basic copyediting: $30-$40/5-10 mss pages
Heavy copyediting: $40-$50/2-6 mss pages
Developmental editing: $45-$55/1-6 mss pages

So, my first question is, why the lowball figure? If you want proper editing, you're going to have to pay pro amounts for that.

Also, if it were me, a month's time allotted to potentially do anything and everything up to and including developmental editing (with the back and forth via email that that contains), I'd pass on the project.

My two biggest concerns here are:

The tone of your letter AND the expectations you put upon an editor you're not willing to pay market rates for.

I don't do this for free, for friends. I can't imagine anyone who makes an income out of editing taking this very seriously.

I might, if it were me, check the tone of the letter (it's fine to be excited about your work) and seriously reconsider the points above.

Hope that helps!


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## buyjupiter (May 11, 2015)

I might try a letter that was more along the following lines (for a query):

Dear Future Editor:

I have an epic fantasy novel [title] that is 125k words [or whatever more closely resembles your word count--be exact here [i.e. 123k words], don't give a range. If you give a range, it sounds like you don't know what you're doing and you wrote the thing!] that I would like you [editor's name] to help me copy edit. I have seen your fees for [x-type of copy editing] and wondered if we could negotiate a price to fit within my budget for editing costs.

I would like a basic copy edit [or whatever], with any notes on overall structural problems if you felt that there were any major issues. [Basically, by asking an editor to determine what kind of copy editing should be done, you're opening yourself up to being charged the highest rates, when that may not be what you need. Have you had a beta reader or two go over the novel? What have they said were your biggest "issues"?]

If you feel like this would be a good fit for you, please let me know. If not, is there anyone you would recommend?

Thank you for your time and consideration,
[signed your name]

The tone above ^^ is far more professional, exact in knowing what needs to be done, and open to suggestion--while also getting to your goals of fitting within a budget. (Asking an editor if you hit the mark re: emotional connection is only something I would bring up with the person(s) who were most likely to be my editor, once I'd established the working relationship.)

I hope that gives y'all a clearer idea of what I meant. (Also, do a basic google search about "query letters" and slightly modify a form letter. No, it's not exciting and it won't set you apart; but it also won't kill your reputation either. If the options are boring, but polite or "exciting" and potentially coming across as aggressive, I'd take the boring every time.)


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## Caged Maiden (May 11, 2015)

I've never worked as a professional editor, but this letter doesn't strike me as particularly professional in nature.  The tone is rather too informal and the familiarity of it wouldn't impress me if I took my work seriously as an editor. 

I would think something more on the order of, "This is my project and I have these specific concerns about its overall quality" would probably sound more respectful.  I've only contacted a few editors, but does a writer expect to set the rate?  I'd think this is one of those industries where you get what you pay for, and the lady I'm working with is very reasonable at $2/pg. for content editing.  I know she charges for each pass, as well, so if you're looking to do reworking, you may end up having to pay twice.

When I contacted the editor, she was very friendly and told me that any editor worth working with will offer to do a small sample edit (ten pages/ first chapter/ 3k words/ etc.) for free, to sample their work and style.  I'd imagine you might want to research individual editors rather than sending a letter expressing your wants so explicitly.  Professional editors will want to go back and forth in emails and gain an understanding of your needs before quoting you a price.  In fact, mine offered to read my whole book so she could tell me exactly what she thought it needed, so I could save money if a full content edit wasn't warranted.  

If this were a net you're casting, or bait on your hook, what are you hoping to catch with it?  I think buyjupiter is absolutely right in her concerns.  Check with editors you actually want to work with.  Some will offer you discounts if you pay in advance (after the sample you agree is what you are looking for) and that can save you a lot of money (my editor takes off 20% if you pay in advance, or if you send her a second project).  Good editors cost a bit because they're worth it.  I'd be very hesitant to screen editors from a big pool of people who may not be experienced in editing fantasy novels for general consumption.  I met my editor through a writer who is prolific and has a good career.  Word of mouth and reputations are kinda priceless in this sort of industry, not who will work within a set budget.  I'd think maybe hold off until you can throw another couple hundred dollars into just getting one of the reputable editors available, one you have a desire to work with.


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## Steerpike (May 11, 2015)

BWFoster is talking about using Elance, and I think the tone of the letter is good for that service. My suggestion would be to thoroughly research someone before hiring them there. A lot of people from all over the world use that site, and I know of at least one person who hired an editor there who turned out not even to be a native English speaker and didn't do a very good job. I do think the budget is low for a full content edit for a work of that length, but it's not worth even spending that if you end up with someone who doesn't know what they're doing.


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## BWFoster78 (May 12, 2015)

Steerpike,

I think, perhaps, you're more familiar with Elance than the other two posters.  

My previous experience with Elance was that it is a buyer's market.  There are a lot of editors offering services, which drives down the prices.

The bad thing is that a lot of the editors have pretty much no clue what they're doing.  My biggest concern by far is that I end up paying that much money and get no value add in return.

The first time around, I chose based on the sample edit, and the editor, I think, did a fantastic job.

I'm not sure, however, why I was so successful:

1. I got lucky.
2. I'm extraordinarily skilled at determining what editor to pick based on a sample edit.
3. My writing was so bad that any editor that halfway knew what the crap they were talking about would have done well.

I'm actually leaning toward option 3, so I am approaching this process with more than a fair amount of trepidation.


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## BWFoster78 (May 12, 2015)

> So, my first question is, why the lowball figure? If you want proper editing, you're going to have to pay pro amounts for that.



I paid $550 for my developmental edit for the same novel (approximately same word count).  My per word rate also isn't out of line with what I see being advertised on Goodreads.

I think you have tiers of editors.  The top tier ones charge a lot more than I'm willing to pay.

Here's the way I look at it: By the time I hit "Publish" on Amazon, I'm going to be into this book for around $1500.  I'm not sure of my chances of making my money back, but I'm not super optimistic about it.  This is a learning experience.  I think that, if I do my homework, the editor I choose will teach me enough to make the $700 or so worth it.  If not, that will be a lesson in and of itself.



> Also, if it were me, a month's time allotted to potentially do anything and everything up to and including developmental editing (with the back and forth via email that that contains), I'd pass on the project.



I think you live in an editing world that is completely separate from that which exists on Elance.  In my, admittedly limited, experience, editors are available immediately and usually only take a couple of weeks.



> The tone of your letter AND the expectations you put upon an editor you're not willing to pay market rates for.



As far as I know, you are a consummate professional and know what the crap you're doing.  I'm not getting the sense, however, that you're knowledgeable about the marketplace that I'm using.  Again, my experience seems contrary to what you're telling me.

My biggest concern is in trying to wade through all the probable offers I'm going to get in order to find the person who will provide me the best value for my money.

Thanks for the response, though.

Brian


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## Steerpike (May 12, 2015)

@BWFoster:

I did freelance writing for a few years, and for probably a year and a half did quite a bit of work through Elance, before the prices became so depressed that it wasn't worth doing for the most part (though that can be good from the buyer's perspective, of course).

You can get someone good at a reasonable price, it's just a matter of finding the right person among the ones who aren't so good. Samples are good. Feedback is also good. If the person has industry experience outside of Elance, that's nice as well. If you found a good one for $550, I think that's great. Is there a way to contact people who have used the editor previously based on profiles that have left feedback? The site has changed a lot since I used it and I'm not sure what functionality they have anymore.


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## BWFoster78 (May 12, 2015)

Steerpike said:


> @BWFoster:
> 
> I did freelance writing for a few years, and for probably a year and a half did quite a bit of work through Elance, before the prices became so depressed that it wasn't worth doing for the most part (though that can be good from the buyer's perspective, of course).
> 
> You can get someone good at a reasonable price, it's just a matter of finding the right person among the ones who aren't so good. Samples are good. Feedback is also good. If the person has industry experience outside of Elance, that's nice as well. If you found a good one for $550, I think that's great. Is there a way to contact people who have used the editor previously based on profiles that have left feedback? The site has changed a lot since I used it and I'm not sure what functionality they have anymore.



I'm not sure.

The problem with the feedback approach, however, is evaluating the reliability of the feedback.

I think I desire something specific that a lot of other authors don't necessarily look for.  Perhaps, and I could be wrong, a lot of authors are pretty happy with a basic copy edit where the editor tells them how to adhere to the Chicago Manual of Style.

I'm not sure that positive feedback from those authors would do much for me...


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## buyjupiter (May 12, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> I paid $550 for my developmental edit for the same novel (approximately same word count).  My per word rate also isn't out of line with what I see being advertised on Goodreads.
> 
> I think you have tiers of editors.  The top tier ones charge a lot more than I'm willing to pay.
> 
> ...



I live in an editing world in which I cannot allow editing to take up all my time. I did a combination structural overview as well as passes with basic copyediting for a novel within two weeks. It just about killed me to do it within that time frame. I got no writing of my own done, other than some basic short story outlines/beginnings.

I did NOT get paid for that. That was part of a deal I had established elsewhere off site. If someone told me that I had to do _more _ work (more words) and they weren't sure what they needed for the price you have budgeted? I'd laugh. I would not sell my time that cheaply.

Caged Maiden has hit something on the nose, though. If you can get someone to evaluate a sample of the novel, before money is exchanged, you'll get a much better sense of what they are capable of as an editor without giving the "prove it to me" vibe that I got from your letter. (Which is where I got a lot of the "non-professional" vibe from. As well as the word range statement, and the I'll leave it up to you to tell me what needs to be done bit.) 

Being professional, no matter what the circumstances, will always serve you better than trying something non-professionally. If (what you and Steerpike are saying is the case is in fact true, which I don't doubt) then being professional will make you stand out--in a good way.

*You get what you pay for* is always an adage to keep in mind.

_Writing is your business_. Treat it as such! Research the heck out of what's actually available. Don't potentially shoot yourself in the foot by "settling" (or whatever is the case) for your budgeted amount if what you really need is pro-rates editing. Also, $700 is an expensive investment for one book, a little too expensive for a "mistake", don'tcha think?


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## Svrtnsse (May 12, 2015)

Have you considered checking out Reedsy - Find Editors and Book Designers ? Someone from there posted about their site a few months back and it seems like it might be good. They're still building the page so it doesn't have all of the features yet, but it's got a searchable list of freelance editors where you can filter by genre.

I haven't delved into it too much as I'm not ready to go looking for an editor just yet, but once the time comes I'll at least look into it.


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## BWFoster78 (May 12, 2015)

buyjupiter,

I think that you and I will have to agree to disagree on what is "professional."

The tone of my query is meant to be funny and friendly.  If that didn't come through, then I need to work on it. From your response, though, I'm not sure if you object to the funny and friendly part or not.

Understand, please, that I'm not sending my manuscript, in this scenario, to editors in the hopes that they'll accept my book.  I'm trying to weed out editors who are going to be bidding to edit my book.  From experience, I'm going to get innundated with offers from people who have do not have the ability to provide what I want. My theory in writing this query as I have is to try to define exactly what I want in terms of performance so that the editors who can provide what I want can clearly communicate that ability to me when they do their sample edit.


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## BWFoster78 (May 12, 2015)

Svrtnsse said:


> Have you considered checking out Reedsy - Find Editors and Book Designers ? Someone from there posted about their site a few months back and it seems like it might be good. They're still building the page so it doesn't have all of the features yet, but it's got a searchable list of freelance editors where you can filter by genre.
> 
> I haven't delved into it too much as I'm not ready to go looking for an editor just yet, but once the time comes I'll at least look into it.



I've seen the posts advertising reedsy, but I'm going to try Elance first.  If I don't get the response I need there, I'll probably give them a shot.

Thanks!

Brian


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## Caged Maiden (May 12, 2015)

Just one thing to consider.

My editor service will cost me $1000 for a lady recommended to me by a talented writer who puts out four-five books a year in the romance genre, two with her publisher and two or three on her own.  This isn't her editor, but an editor five of her friends (from YA to modern thriller to sci-fi) use and rave about.  She was nice enough to talk to me for two months in emails, listening to my desires and my concerns for my novel's quality.  She suggested I send her a full manuscript so she could assess it and it was her offer to do so to save me money.  

When an edit is finished, she'll format it for ebook for $50.  She charges $200-$400 for covers, but I think if I do some of the work, I can get a cover for less that I'm happy with.  

Basically, at the end of this, I'll be about $1500 into my project too, and I don't feel at all that I had to sacrifice quality.  So, I'm not trying to question all your decisions, because I'm not going to force anyone to "see it my way".  I'm familiar with Elance, and even have a profile I did a couple years ago on it.  I personally wouldn't go this route and this response is less about changing your mind, than it is about presenting my honest opinion for the benefit of others who might be in similar situations.  There have been times in my life where I began something new, took a step toward something, and had no idea where to go or what to do.  Writing has been loaded with those.  From MY experiences and from speaking with other folks in my shoes, and reaching out to professional writers who make a living doing this, it is my understanding that professional-quality editing is one of the best investments a writer will ever make in their work.  I don't doubt Elance has professional editors, but I KNOW it has loads of fakers who do mediocre jobs quickly.  Anyone who uses that site should be careful and have some method for judging the quality of the work done.  That's all.  And I don't think a professional-sounding letter would be a mistake...ever.  It sends a message about what you want.  It seems to me that a joking letter might signify a customer might be more inclined to pay for a half-assed job.  I wouldn't want to advertise that
 in any way.  If you want an editor who has worked with comedies and dramas before, consider just stating that.

Sorry you and I never agree.  Nothing personal.  We have different methods, and I'm not about to argue the details, but I wonder, if you're willing to part with $700 for this Elance editor, why not talk to a lady like mine for a couple hundred more? $2/ pg. would run you like $900.


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## BWFoster78 (May 12, 2015)

> I don't doubt Elance has professional editors, but I KNOW it has loads of fakers who do mediocre jobs quickly. Anyone who uses that site should be careful and have some method for judging the quality of the work done.



Contrary to your statements below, I completely agree with you here. (So I guess we disagree about disagreeing  )

To be clear, the reason I'm choosing the Elance route is because I believe that I will be able to evaluate, based on sample edits and responses to my query, an editor's ability to provide what I want.

Of course, there is some level of trepidation and doubt on my part.  If I'm taken in by someone who tells me what I want to hear, I may be out $700.

I'm willing to risk that money because I'm betting on my ability.

On a larger scale, I'm betting $1500 on my ability to produce a debut novel that is worth that kind of money.



> And I don't think a professional-sounding letter would be a mistake...ever. It sends a message about what you want. It seems to me that a joking letter might signify a customer might be more inclined to pay for a half-assed job.



Look, I'm a professional engineer working in a professional environment.  I get paid a really decent wage to do what I do.

I just don't see any issue with the tone of my letter.

We will definitely have to agree to disagree on that point.

Truthfully, the editor that I want is one who responds well to a "fun and friendly" vibe.



> but I wonder, if you're willing to part with $700 for this Elance editor, why not talk to a lady like mine for a couple hundred more? $2/ pg. would run you like $900.



I truthfully don't know why I would think that the lady you're using is going to be any better than who I find on Elance.

If, based on the sample edit and response to my query, I don't find anyone who I think will work, I will pursue other avenues.

The advantage of Elance is that I will get a lot of responses.  Last time (if memory serves), I got like 10.  Of those, I thought that 2 were pretty darn good editors, and I ended up getting a great return on my money.

Thanks for the response.

Brian


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## skip.knox (May 12, 2015)

This is a useful conversation, as I'm just starting a search for an editor. I'm not choosing the Elance route. I've had a look at Reedsy and right now it looks like mostly enthusiasm and promise. Perhaps not fair for a startup, but there it is.

Which leaves me poking around more or less at random. I have two novellas that need an editor. I'm using them as a way to shop relationships, so when my major novel is done, I'll be working with someone I know I like.


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## Svrtnsse (May 12, 2015)

skip.knox said:


> I have two novellas that need an editor. I'm using them as a way to shop relationships, so when my major novel is done, I'll be working with someone I know I like.



This seems like a really good idea. Now I just need to write some novellas.


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## BWFoster78 (May 12, 2015)

skip.knox said:


> This is a useful conversation, as I'm just starting a search for an editor. I'm not choosing the Elance route. I've had a look at Reedsy and right now it looks like mostly enthusiasm and promise. Perhaps not fair for a startup, but there it is.
> 
> Which leaves me poking around more or less at random. I have two novellas that need an editor. I'm using them as a way to shop relationships, so when my major novel is done, I'll be working with someone I know I like.



For some reason, reedsy doesn't open in my browser, and I'm too lazy to try it in Chrome 

I think the novella idea is smart.  Your overall investment will be small for each, and it gives you a chance to test the waters.

I hope that I eventually develop a relationship with an editor and stick with that person.  Right now, I'm trying to go with a lot of different people and learn what I can from each.


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## Caged Maiden (May 12, 2015)

I knew you weren't going to like my response.  We so rarely find ourselves on the same side of any issue.  I do hope however your experience turns out, you let the scribes here know.  Elance may be a better place than some folks know (like me, who didn't have any success finding someone to do my website) and it might help other writers out to know how this works or doesn't.  I know elance has methods for ensuring the work is done to your satisfaction before you pay, but they also have methods to prevent employees getting stiffed.  I'm not sure how those things work (since I didn't end up hiring someone to design my website), but I'd caution everyone to go have a look at it first, just to be familiar with the process of approval and payment.

About the tone of the letter. If you love the letter, why ask for people's opinions?  To me personally, it isn't witty (which would capture my attention as a fun person), but pretentious and un-serious.  But, I know a plain letter is very vanilla.  It's real estate white.  I get that.  I'm not arguing that bland is king, but it doesn't evoke negative or positive, and I get that you want to try to actively evoke a positive response.  I'd simply caution you that the letter's not actually humorous, and I think that makes it less effective than you want it to be.  

I get it, I'm a person with a different viewpoint and even if I had a New York Times' best seller, you'd probably still disagree.  That doesn't bother me.  Everything I've ever said to you has been in my best effort to be helpful, and for free, and for you to take or leave.  Other people read these threads, though.  Sometimes I offer advice for those people who are also where we are...still figuring things out.  No insult is ever meant in anything I say.  I don't have time for that sort of thing.  I do hope you let us know how your experiences in publishing this novel take form.  Some of us read it back when it was brand new.  

Best wishes.


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## BWFoster78 (May 12, 2015)

> If you love the letter, why ask for people's opinions?



I'm asking for feedback about how to make it more effective.

You suggested making it more "professional."  I rejected that advice.

Just because I don't think your advice in particular is right for me does not mean that someone else might not propose something that would help a great deal.

Sorry you didn't like it.  And I'm sorry I didn't like your advice.

Thanks.

Brian


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## Svrtnsse (May 12, 2015)

Regarding tone: I think it will work. 
It's not my style at all, and it's not how I would do it, but for what it's worth, I think it's got a lot of Brian over it. Chances are if you get someone to hook on it, they'll be the kind of person who's on your wavelength and who you'd be able to work with. At the same time, you'd weed out people who don't like that style and whom you wouldn't be able to work with in the same way.

At least that's my theory.


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## BWFoster78 (May 12, 2015)

Svrtnsse,

Thanks!

That was my theory as well.

To an extent, you want an editor who gets what you're trying to do.

Ideally, my perfect editor would say, "it would be funnier if you did this..." or "I saw the humor, but it wasn't very effective.  Instead try..."

An editor who didn't even get that I was trying to be funny probably wouldn't be the best fit.

Thanks again!

Brian


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## buyjupiter (May 12, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> buyjupiter,
> 
> I think that you and I will have to agree to disagree on what is "professional."
> 
> ...



If you were trying for funny, then for me, you failed. If you did this same exact thing in person, I might find it funny--from contextual cues you're giving me with your body language, tone, etc. In text? NONE of that comes across.

If you were trying for friendly, then again for me, you failed. Not as badly as the funny, but to me it read as pushy more than friendly and definitely had a PROVE YOURSELF TO ME vibe. (Which was why I suggested pulling it back into a more professional tone.)

I've found that if a sense of humor is understated a la Mitch Hedburg/Steven Wright, getting that to come through in text is hard, if not downright impossible. Which might be a reason that a lot of the humor that translates well into text is stuff like Doug Adams Hitchhiker's Guide... and the opening chapter of Dan Abnett's Triumff and much of Terry Pratchett's work--which is so over the top or absurd that it cannot be mistaken for anything other than humor.

I'd also suggest reading some of the funny used car ads on craigslist for examples of what I mean by "over the top". I'm not saying ya have to go *that* far, but they are unmistakably intended as humor. (I don't like Pontiacs but after reading that ad, I kinda wanted to buy that car. Or at least have a beer with the guy who wrote the ad. Also, warning for language in the ad.)

My main point is this: as a woman, reading that advert for editing help, I had a few impressions that I wasn't sure were what you were trying to give. Because to me, as a woman, reading that you came across as less than pleasant and someone I wouldn't want to work with. I'm not saying that other women out there won't totally get what you were trying to say right out the gate or that other men wouldn't find the same issues within the letter. But, for me, the issues I pointed out would be enough to say: don't work with this person. And, if push came to shove and someone asked for my opinion on whether or not they should work with the person who wrote that kind of advert, I'd say no, for the same reasons. (The writing/editing community is TINY. Which is something to keep in mind, here.)

We can definitely agree to disagree on which path is best. But, in my view, you might be setting yourself up for failure--and not necessarily the ones you might have anticipated. (I've watched several people crash and burn and get miserable reputations as not-to-be-worked-with for reasons very similar to this; which is why I always go the bland "professional" route as much as possible.)


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## Russ (May 12, 2015)

To my mind you only get the chance to make a first impression once.

I too lean towards making the letter a little more professional and a little less humorous.  If I write angry, dark fantasy should I write an angry dark cover letter?  Professional isn't necessarily bland, it just shows you treat writing like a business and take it seriously.  The worst part of your letter are the asides.  If you yank them out it would be a big step forward.

On the issue of cost I think your budget is low.  I don't know anything about glance but it sounds like shopping at Fieline's basement ...not sure that is the way to go.

I have a friend of mine who is a very old and very good lawyer.  Many years ago he had a potential client come in and ask him how much he charged for defending a drunk driving case.  My friend (back then) said $150.  To which the client replied "How can you charge $150 when the firm upstairs only charges $100?"

The reply was "If you want a $100 defence go upstairs, if you want a $150 defence stay here."

I feel the same way about editors.  I am not quite at the point of hiring one but have researched them thoroughly and have two that I think are good enough to do the work for me at the level I want.  One has a three month waiting list, one has a six month waiting list.

While I realize in the modern world we are all in a hurry, some things are worth waiting for.  Do you really want to hire the editor who is sitting around with a big block of open time for some odd reason, or do you want to hire the one who is busy?

A good editor makes all the difference in the world.  I wrote a chapter in a text on writing that I felt was strong and when it came back to me from the editor it freakin' shone.  A friend of mine had his book edited by a pretty expensive book doctor which he and I are quite certain led to his first novel doing very well on amazon.ca in a number of categories.  I don't think he would ever have gotten an agent let alone a good publisher without that top notch editor.

But it is up to you to decide at what level you want to pursue this.  If it is just a fun aside, treat it that way.  If you want it to change your life treat it that way as well.


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## MineOwnKing (May 12, 2015)

Hmm,

I'm not sure why you think you would need to write a query for an editor.

All you need is the word count and the genre.

Editors are very busy, therefore they determine when it would be completed, not the other way around.

If you're having trouble, just go to the Book Editing Associates website and pick from the list of freelancers that would be a good fit.

Easy Peasy.


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## Philip Overby (May 13, 2015)

I hate to just chime in with what others have said, but I would also go for something more straight-forward. The goals you listed are good goals from a writer's stand-point, but I think editors probably would want something more concrete. Like you're looking to make your dialogue pop more or make you scenes have lots of tension. These are tangible things that an editor can latch onto and try to help you with. "Keeping readers awake" and "getting them fired" might get a snicker, but if I read this as an editor, I wouldn't really get what you're aiming for. 

And this part:



> Do you possess:
> 
> • The knowledge of how my objectives are accomplished on a theoretical basis? AND
> • The experience to determine what practical edits can be made on my book that will most help it accomplish them?



An editor that wanted to get paid would say, "Well, um, yes." So these kind of seem like throw-away parts to me. 

I also agree with some people that editors are busy and probably just want to cut straight to what you want, how much you're willing to pay, and things like that so you can negotiate. Once you make contact, you may get more of sense if their personality matches up and then it's easier to throw around witticisms. I'm not sure a query like this would necessarily attract the right kind of editors. 

But if you're determined to go this route, I'd make the following suggestions:

1. Cut out the last part or change it to something more tangible. Any editor will say "Yes, I can do it" regardless if they can or not. 
2. If you're going to make generalizations like "keep readers up at night" (which is what every writer wants), then perhaps also give details of what kind of stories you're going for. What do you think you need help with? Dialogue, description, character motivation, etc.
3. I think the more specific your goals and the more to the point you are, the better. Maybe a couple of quips here and there if you like that style, but spelling out clearly what you want I think should be your main goal.

Things I usually look for are: 

Is it coherent and able to be followed?

Were there funny parts? (I know this is tough because some humor falls flat for some and works for others) For example, some people like scatological humor and some think it's gross. Some like dark humor and some think it's disturbing. So I guess your query is in some ways trying to gauge if an editor gets your sense of humor. But they could get that just as easily from reading your sample, which is what you want them to do anyway.

Which parts sag?

Are there too many characters? Which could be combined?

These kind of things. So maybe you could say "One goal is to tighten up my dialogue."

Some editors (maybe ones you want to avoid? I don't know) may take a tongue-in-cheek query like this and assume you're not serious about your writing. Which I know is not true, but some may see it that way judging from several of the comments in this thread.

Hope that helps.


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## BWFoster78 (May 13, 2015)

buyjupiter,

First, hearing that you completely didn't see the humor is helpful to me.  Thanks for sharing that!

To be clear, my book is not meant to be a comedy in any way, but I do have some understated humor in the book.  It seems to me that it's important that the editor that I work with be able to pick up on that humor.  Right?  I mean, how can the editor help me figure out how to make the humor work if the editor didn't even pick up on it in the first place?  So, then, doesn't it make some kind of sense to include that humor in the query?



> Because to me, as a woman, reading that you came across as less than pleasant and someone I wouldn't want to work with. I'm not saying that other women out there won't totally get what you were trying to say right out the gate or that other men wouldn't find the same issues within the letter. But, for me, the issues I pointed out would be enough to say: don't work with this person.



I think that, reading your responses, I wouldn't necessarily want to work with you.

The last time I used Elance, I got a lot of responses from people who weren't offering what I wanted at all.  (Fortunately, I got two who did meet my criteria, and I chose one of those.)  Part of the point of my query is to weed out the people I don't want to work with.

So it seems like, from your reaction, the query might be doing its job?



> (The writing/editing community is TINY. Which is something to keep in mind, here.)
> 
> We can definitely agree to disagree on which path is best. But, in my view, you might be setting yourself up for failure--and not necessarily the ones you might have anticipated. (I've watched several people crash and burn and get miserable reputations as not-to-be-worked-with for reasons very similar to this; which is why I always go the bland "professional" route as much as possible.)



My query isn't saying to the editor, "Hey, here I am.  Please choose me."  It's saying, "This is what I want.  Can you, the editor, meet my needs?"

Is the core of your objection that I'm the one stating firmly what I want?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting you.


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## BWFoster78 (May 13, 2015)

Russ,

Regarding cost: I can only really go by my experiences.  I went this route once before and got really good results.  I'm hoping that my experience repeats itself.

Part of my issue is that I'm not sure that paying more would necessarily result in a better experience.

As an analogy, it's kinda like buying a self published book over a traditionally published one.

You have to put in a lot more time in the evaluation phase with the self published book, but it's certainly possible to get the same entertainment value for less money.

And the last traditionally published book I read was pretty dreadful (if you consider Baen a traditional publisher).  (Oops, sorry for the aside.)  (Oops, sorry for the aside to the aside...)

Thanks.

Brian


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## BWFoster78 (May 13, 2015)

Phillip,

Thanks for your comments!  You're the first person to offer concrete suggestions on how to better accomplish what I want.



> An editor that wanted to get paid would say, "Well, um, yes." So these kind of seem like throw-away parts to me.



Here's the issue:

It seems like a lot of people in the freelance editing world truly believe that tightening up sentences and making sure that the prose adheres to the Chicago Manual of Style are a real value add.

I'm not quite so sure.

I've always thought that character and story and tension and emotion are a lot more important to my book's success than a pure copy edit.

On the other hand, I'm not an editor, and I don't want to dictate to the editor what kind of service they provide.  I truly want to find someone who really knows what they're doing and let the person tell me, within the confines of my budget, the best way to improve my book.

Any thoughts on the best way to convey that information?

Thanks again!

Brian


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## Steerpike (May 13, 2015)

Also, with Elance you can't really just assume that something would be obvious to any editor and therefore leave it out, because a lot of people on Elance don't know what they're doing. By putting some pretty specific demands into the posting, and by having a lot of them that get to the heart of what you're really trying to do, you'll weed out some bids from people who don't have a clue but are holding themselves out on Elance as cheap editors.

There are good editors there as well, but it can be hard to differentiate which is which, and in this context I don't see "demanding" as a real problem given the environment you're dealing with. 

I'll add to @BWFoster that it is not only important to get an editor who is technically good, but you also need one who "gets" your style. Hemingway would have been a disaster as an editor for Nabokov, but for someone who writes like Hemingway he'd be perfect. Good editors will understand your style and go with it. Bad editors only know one approach and they'll try to shoehorn your work into that box.


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## BWFoster78 (May 13, 2015)

> Also, with Elance you can't really just assume that something would be obvious to any editor and therefore leave it out, because a lot of people on Elance don't know what they're doing. By putting some pretty specific demands into the posting, and by having a lot of them that get to the heart of what you're really trying to do, you'll weed out some bids from people who don't have a clue but are holding themselves out on Elance as cheap editors.



I agree with this completely.

It was part of what I was attempting to do with my query.

I'm unclear at this point whether my query actually accomplishes this, however.  What is your take?


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## Steerpike (May 13, 2015)

I may be in the minority here, but I like it just fine. I think that, combined with the results of their comments on your first chapter, could end with you finding a good editor. If none of the editors who bid seem like the right fit, you don't have to award the project and you can always post again and try a different approach.


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## BWFoster78 (May 13, 2015)

Steerpike said:


> I may be in the minority here, but I like it just fine. I think that, combined with the results of their comments on your first chapter, could end with you finding a good editor. If none of the editors who bid seem like the right fit, you don't have to award the project and you can always post again and try a different approach.



That helps a ton.

And it is also my plan, as you state, not to award the project unless I find someone who is a good fit.

Thanks!


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## Devor (May 13, 2015)

If you're intention is to post this somewhere and see who bites, then it's just fine.

For myself, though, my preference has always been to find the people I wanted to work with and to be the one who approaches them.  I'd rather find editors talking about their services, look into them as needed, and pick one that I felt was the right fit.  Asking for solicitations ends up with a lot of the weaker candidates, and the best ones may not be paying attention.


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## BWFoster78 (May 13, 2015)

Devor said:


> If you're intention is to post this somewhere and see who bites, then it's just fine.
> 
> For myself, though, my preference has always been to find the people I wanted to work with and to be the one who approaches them.  I'd rather find editors talking about their services, look into them as needed, and pick one that I felt was the right fit.  Asking for solicitations ends up with a lot of the weaker candidates, and the best ones may not be paying attention.



I understand your approach.

I'm a member of a Goodreads Group where a lot of editors advertise their services, and I've been checking out the websites of each person who posts over the last few months.

I'm uncomfortable with (and don't want to deal with the hassle) sending each a chapter for a sample edit, and their websites, frankly, don't do a lot to tell me what I want to know.

I'd much prefer to define what I want to a large group, hopefully weed out at least some of the people who don't match my needs, and then evaluate all the candidates who are left.

Perhaps part of my preference comes from my industry.  We do a lot of bid proposals where contractors submit competitive bids.  I'm familiar with and like that process.

Thanks.

Brian


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## SeverinR (May 13, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> Steerpike,
> 
> I think, perhaps, you're more familiar with Elance than the other two posters.
> 
> ...


Maybe someone already asked this, I only read a few posts.

If you liked your first editor, they worked for a good price, why not seek them out for the second, even if they ask for alittle more, you know they work? Did they drop out of work because the market dropped out?
Don't know how Elance works, but it would seem you should be able to make contact with them again.

Finding someone that works well, works well with your work, and does it for a reasonable price seems like a good reason to go back. I would also suggest knowing the above, makes them more valuable then a total unknown, hence the increased rate for the second round.

Just a thought, sorry if it was already covered.


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## BWFoster78 (May 13, 2015)

SeverinR,

Good question!

Three reasons:

1. The previous editor was fantastic with tension and conflict.  I feel like my writing is about 1000% better in that regard now than it was.  On the emotion side of things, however, I thought that her advice could have been a bit stronger.  I'm wondering if I've really already learned what she had to teach me?

2. I strongly believe that the work needs a completely fresh set of eyes.  I've already addressed everything she brought up.  What might a new editor add that she and I missed?  Could be some awesome suggestions that really kick things up a notch!

Thanks.

Brian


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## buyjupiter (May 13, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> buyjupiter,
> 
> First, hearing that you completely didn't see the humor is helpful to me.  Thanks for sharing that!
> 
> ...



Nope. You've said you want to find someone to meet your needs, but your letter leaves it open to their judgment about what kind of copyediting you'd like and then you go on to say that you want feedback on things that most definitely fall under the structural copyedits umbrella. My objection is that you're vague when you need to be precise and precise when you need to be vague. (The word count range and budget range and knowing what kind of copy edits you need = vague; the list of what you must possess to be my editor = precise. Granted, you have the drop down options for word count/pay/etc, so I might leave that out of the main text of the letter.)

For example, here's a post on elance that asks for similar things (but in my opinion does it in a way that quickly gets their point across without veering off into territory that could potentially make you seem unprofessional [please keep in mind I'm reading your initial letter like I don't know anything about you and critiquing from that standpoint]; disregard the genre for a minute, but I'd pay attention to the way they give a feel for the type of book by comparing it to something already out in the market):
https://www.elance.com/j/editor-dark-comedy-novel/72844738/

And that was another thing that I would want to see (but had to check to see if people were doing it on that specific site) as an editor searching for jobs: does this work fit within something I could see myself working on?

My time is too valuable to waste having to hunt to find out that kind of information--I'd pass your ad by if I didn't see it within the advert. If you give a little tiny tease of what kind of flavor your epic fantasy is, you might save yourself (and potential editors) a lot of time. As well as a lot of work, because just because I won't "hate edit" something for pay doesn't mean that other people won't. (And by that, I mean that I'd work on projects that were of a flavor/genre that I like, just so I don't have to worry so much about being overly critical because I'm reading tropes/archetypes that I just cannot stand. Why would I edit a book about romance between elves, if I'm not a romance reader or fond of elves? Just because I'm getting paid? Doesn't seem worth it to me.)

All of my suggestions were meant as just that: suggestions on how to tighten it up, make it stand out as professional and hopefully save you a lot of time and energy sifting through responses. The clearer your post is, the more obvious it will be when you receive responses who "gets" you and who doesn't. (I've also been getting a secondary benefit out of writing practice query letters so that when the time comes for me to write one I have a better feel of what seems necessary and/or what seems like it could potentially come across wrong if you don't know me. So thanks for that opportunity Brian!)


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## BWFoster78 (May 13, 2015)

> You've said you want to find someone to meet your needs, but your letter leaves it open to their judgment about what kind of copyediting you'd like and then you go on to say that you want feedback on things that most definitely fall under the structural copyedits umbrella.



My first level of confusion upon reading the quoted section above is that you seem to state that I ask for copyediting and then confuse issues by asking for structural.  I don't believe that's the case.  I say clearly, I thought, that I don't know what kind of editing I need.  Is there somewhere that implies one type over the other?  I tried to keep it open.

So, assuming you didn't misread and I didn't miswrite, your objection seems to be with the fact that I didn't specify which I wanted.

I desire to find an editor who can move my book toward it being able to accomplish my goals.

Does that require a structural edit or a copy edit?

I'm an aspiring writer, not an editor.  I have no way of knowing.  Really.  None.

I want an editor to read my manuscript and, within the constraints of the budget, give me the most effective advice possible that will move me toward my goals.

I truly don't understand why I should try to dictate to the professional what type of advice is to be given to me.  Shouldn't the editor, as the professional, make that determination?  I don't go to the doctor and tell him what kind of treatment I need.  When I was doing consulting engineering, my clients came to me needing air conditioning.  Given their constraints, I determined what type, not them.

I really don't get your argument here.  Am I missing something?



> (The word count range and budget range and knowing what kind of copy edits you need = vague



I'll concede that giving my word count as a range is suboptimal.  In the interests of time, considering that it'll take me a couple of weeks to make a decision and get the ball rolling, I've decided to post a notice prior to being completely finished.  My word range will not be completely accurate until 6/1.  Hopefully, potential editors can be flexible enough to understand this circumstance.

As for the budget range - huh?

I'm going to post a solicitation for editing services.  The responses that I'm going to get are going to be bids.  These bids will vary in price.  In what world is it not okay to give a budget range in this scenario?  I don't want to people who would only charge $100, and I can't afford the people who will charge $1000+.  I'm comfortable in the 600-800 range.  It's accurate and relevant info.



> the list of what you must possess to be my editor = precise.



Isn't it a good thing to state exactly what I want in a request for bids?  I really don't get your logic here.  



> does this work fit within something I could see myself working on?



I honestly don't know here.  Does a potential editor need to know more than the specific genre, epic fantasy, in order to click on the sample chapter?  Seems to me that, like with me when I decide to buy a book, the sample really sells it.  Maybe you need more.  I'm not sure how applicable that is to the editors on Elance in general.



> suggestions on how to tighten it up, make it stand out as professional and hopefully save you a lot of time and energy sifting through responses. The clearer your post is, the more obvious it will be when you receive responses who "gets" you and who doesn't.



I appreciate you making the effort.  I really do.

I'm more than willing to take specific advice when I understand its benefit.

Unfortunately, for the most part, I just haven't been able to grok your advice.  Sorry 



> So thanks for that opportunity Brian!)



You are welcome! Anytime!



Thanks.

Brian


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## buyjupiter (May 14, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> My first level of confusion upon reading the quoted section above is that you seem to state that I ask for copyediting and then confuse issues by asking for structural.  I don't believe that's the case.  I say clearly, I thought, that I don't know what kind of editing I need.  Is there somewhere that implies one type over the other?  I tried to keep it open.
> 
> So, assuming you didn't misread and I didn't miswrite, your objection seems to be with the fact that I didn't specify which I wanted.
> 
> ...



Asking for the two major things you ask about re: emotion and page-turniness--those are VERY much the things that fall under "structural" (or developmental) edits. Those are not copy editing to fall into line with the Chicago Manual of Style. Those are not copy edits for grammar, or punctuation, or for vagueness, etc. And they are two very different areas to focus on. I cannot, no matter how much I want to, focus on both things at the same time.

You open it up with this:

_"I went back and forth a bunch of times on if I wanted another developmental/structural edit or a copy edit or what. Then, I had a revelation – you’re the expert on editing, not me. You tell me what kind of edit I need."_

This is vague. I'd presume you'd done your research into copy editing and what the different types are and be familiar enough with your work and where your work was in the process of rough draft-->published novel to know which type you would need. This has nothing to do with "telling someone how to do their job."

If you're uncomfortable with that approach, but since you bring up two areas that you knew were "problem areas" in the past, might I suggest this instead:

"I would like someone to assist me in identifying troublesome spots regarding the emotional reactions of the characters as well as the pacing, along with any major structural issues you may see within the novel. If there are any consistent issues regarding spelling/grammar/language use, I would love to get feedback on that as well."

That leaves it open(ish) to interpretation, but you're spending most of your time asking about the two issues you were concerned with. The "would like" statement is your main concern and it sounds like you know where potential issues are so that editors can focus there. The "if" statement allows that there may be other issues, without making the editor decide what to focus on.

What I've found useful when I have my editing hat on is if the writer has a very good idea of where problems might be. That doesn't mean that I ignore anything that I find problematic, I will always bring those issues up later. I can just focus more attention on how to fix the problematic areas (if they read as problematic to me) than trying to point out every single thing all at once. I'm only doing one pass over the material. I'm not doing multiple passes, one for each type of editing within a month time frame--for me that just wouldn't be possible. 

Re: budget range. I'm old school about money and money negotiations. If there's a drop down option for a payment range, I put it in there and anybody who CAN'T read that section and asks me about it is automatically a no-go, mainly because they're going to try to negotiate me up on my price point. Because if they can't pay attention to the whole of the advertisement, then they can't pay enough attention to the whole novel for me to want their services. I would definitely NOT mention money again within the text of the ad, since there is the drop down option for payment. But, like I said, I am old school about that. Agree to disagree on that one.

The sample isn't immediately available to view, as part of your ad, on the site. That's why I suggested that you put in a bit about "it's like X [awesome thing] meets Y [another awesome thing] with a smattering of Z [something different]" so people might know what kind of thing to expect out of your book before getting involved in negotiating work with you. It could be as complicated as that ^^ or as simple as saying (like in the example ad I posted before) "like Bridget Jones' Diary". If I didn't like Bridget Jones' Diary, I could skip right on past it. Or alternatively, if I loooove Bridget Jones' Diary, I would be more interested in editing that book.

What I guess I'm not understanding is: why the rush, i.e. why are you posting this before your book is even done? Why aren't you doing research into what each type of editing is for and then looking at your book and going, ya know it might be best (at this time) if I got this kind of service? Have you looked into other methods/sites beyond elance? Have you had beta readers that can point out the structural issues you're concerned with (usually for free, if you do an exchange) and thus you can save your cash for y'know the actual copy edits for grammar/language vagueness/spelling? 

Those are all, at this point, rhetorical questions. I think I have made myself as explicitly clear as I can and you have done the same and we are not going to ever agree about this. Which is fine.


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## BWFoster78 (May 14, 2015)

> why are you posting this before your book is even done?



Otherwise, I waste two weeks.  In the grand scheme of things, that's not a big deal.  On the other hand, I just don't see it as a big deal to list a word range.  You aparently see it as a major thing.  I don't.  We disagree.  Sorry.



> Why aren't you doing research into what each type of editing is for and then looking at your book and going, ya know it might be best (at this time) if I got this kind of service?



For me, it's not about research.  Let me try to approach this from a different direction.

Fast forward 10 years.  I'm on my 7th book (or something).  My style and voice and process are set in stone.  I know what the crap I'm doing.

Here's my ideal work flow:

Write rough draft. Polish it a bit to clarify story and character arcs and make sure that tension/conflict is clearly present.
Send for developmental edit.
Major re-write to pick up developmental editor's comments.  Polish to fairly high gloss shine.
Send to beta readers.
Pick up those comments and polish some more.
Copy Edit.
Final spit and polish.
Proofreading.
Publish.

Four years into working on my debut novel, I am not at that point.  My guess is that a competent editor will discover writing technique issues in my manuscript.  My guess is that a competent editor will discover storytelling issues in my manuscript.

Instead of following the traditional path above, I had what I think is a cool idea.  Instead of purchasing copyediting or developmental editing, why don't I do this:

Purchase the expertise and time of an editor.
Tell the editor what I want my writing to achieve.
Leave it to the editor to figure out what type of editing will give me the biggest bang for my buck.

I understand that this is not the traditional way of doing things, but it's what I want.  Since I'm shelling out a not insignificant amount of cash from my wallet, why can't I ask for what I want?

Truthfully, I think that this is the service that debut self publishing authors need, not editors who try to shoehorn us into the traditional model just because "that's the way it's always been done."



> Have you had beta readers that can point out the structural issues you're concerned with (usually for free, if you do an exchange) and thus you can save your cash for y'know the actual copy edits for grammar/language vagueness/spelling?



The editor that I'm looking for has a knowledge base that is vastly superior to the average beta reader.  I need someone who understands what I want to accomplish and who can figure out the best way to propel me on my journey to get there.  That is not in the skillset of most beta readers.  I don't think that that is in the skillset of most freelance editors.

I do think that there are editors out there who can provide this service, and that's what I want to buy.


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## Russ (May 14, 2015)

I aim for a similar ideal workflow.


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## BWFoster78 (May 14, 2015)

Russ said:


> I aim for a similar ideal workflow.



I yearn for the day when I can obtain it!  Not there yet by a long shot.


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