# My villain is too cliche!



## Lavender (Jul 20, 2011)

If I could scrap this character from my novel without ruining important plot points, I probably would.
He's the leader of a warmongering race and his dialogue is almost laughable. I've got his history, appearance, mannerisms etc...all fine. It's his voice that just isn't working.
His interactions with the protagonists are especially bad. I'm just finding it really difficult to stop him sounding so cliche.
Any advice?


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## Map the Dragon (Jul 20, 2011)

We really might need examples of some of this diaglouge to help properly. You telling us his voice is cliche is different than seeing it on our own. Would you be willing to share some brief exchanges to show us what you mean? I think the best way, generically speaking, to address the issue would be to keep the character fairly dynamic. Don't allow him to be so one dimensional, but rather keep readers guessing as to what he'll say or do next.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jul 20, 2011)

Or you could use the cliche to your advantage. For example in a project I'm working on I have a squad of military guys being led by a man whos call sign is Sarge. As far as that goes that's as cliche as it gets. So Sarge, who is the POV character, has internal opinions expressed about that and his teams names. He thinks they're all awful. If you can play to the cliche have the protags comment about the interaction. It'll be a great way to break up the monotony that can come from overserious fantasy novels, not saying that yours is I'm just pointing out a trend.


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## Lavender (Jul 20, 2011)

I'm spending this evening doing some more editing so when I reach a part with my villain in it, I'll post a few examples of dialogue in this thread. I think I am also spelling villain incorrectly lol.
Anyway thanks for the advice both of you, I'll add some reputation to your scores


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## Lavender (Jul 20, 2011)

Okay (sorry about the double post) here is an excerpt from my novel featuring my villain, Falcon.


     Novia’s eyes were narrowed. She was looking at the pendant “Where did you get that necklace?” she hissed
     Falcon smirked “and I heard that you were intelligent, Princess?” he said softly “why, from your brother’s most loyal friend of course. That blade is useless against me”
     “Then we’ll kill you without it!” yelled Riany.
     “I would be delighted to let you attempt that, elf. I have no doubt that it would be exceedingly amusing for all of us”
     Riany scowled under his visor.
     “Again you have saved me the trouble of hunting you down and you have once again, wandered foolishly into my grasp and this time, I assure you, you will not escape. But I admit I respect your bravery, elves. Did you really think you could come and rescue your Princess and escape this Kingdom alive?” Falcon allowed himself a laugh “I have a proposition for all of you” he took a step forwards but neither Skye nor the others moved away “tell me where the human is and I will let you and your Princess go free”
     “Liar!” shouted Skye, unable to think of anything to do apart from keep Falcon distracted in the hope that somebody else could think of something  that would get them out of this unscathed “you’ll kill us all regardless of what we say”
     “Perhaps” replied Falcon “but you would be better to tell all than risk it, do you not agree?”
     “No” said Euphemia “she’s right. Either way we will face death and we will die before we become traitors”
     “Traitors?” Falcon repeated “so you work on behalf of this creature? But explain, do tell me elf, if your leader is so powerful, why does it shy away from me when its friends have the courage to face me?”
     “She’s a lot braver than you” said Piper quietly.
     “I have thought that creature a coward ever since news reached me that it had escaped Boone Palace. If it was truly brave and courageous and -” Falcon gave a tinkering laugh “Noble, it would have sought me out itself by now, do you not think so?”

(everything copywright to me etc blah blah)

any tips would be useful


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## Telcontar (Jul 20, 2011)

Yes, I'm thinking examples would be necessary here. I consider myself pretty good with dialogue, and I'd be glad to take a look.

EDIT: Yar, example Ninja! My fault for leaving a window open before replying. Alright, let's take a look - although I'll also say that this probably now belongs in the Showcase, really. 

It is a bit stilted. Your villain seems to lean towards bombastic statements. That's fine. If he is the leader of a warmongering race then he would need some flamboyance and charisma to keep them in line. You just have to make his dialogue less obvious.

For instance: "...and this time, I assure you, you will not escape."

I don't like that. Obviously he intends that they won't escape. This sort of statement only draws attention to the fact that they've escaped _before._ That represents a failing of this Falcon character, and he wouldn't bring attention to that. He says a lot of unnecessary things. 

“I would be delighted to let you attempt that, elf. I have no doubt that it would be exceedingly amusing for all of us”

Oddly worded, I think. I don't know much about this character, such as how intelligent he is, which is important to know for trying to write his speech. Howver, I would rewrite the above as:

“That would be amusing, elf. Perhaps I'll let you try sometime.”

Fewer words will help you here. My (quickly-formed) thought on Falcon is that he's a warrior. He's a man of action, not words. It would fit a warlike race not to put much stock in words or fancy speeches. 

“I have a proposition for all of you”

Leave this out entirely. Have him plainly state:

“Tell me where the human is and I will let you go free.” Use description to lead up to it and give it some menace. 

"...brave and courageous"

Shudder. These mean the same thing. Use only one.

I'll stop there for now. I can sum up my main point by repeating, 'Fewer words, and simpler.'

These are all, of course, my own humble opinions.


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## Lavender (Jul 20, 2011)

Telcontar said:


> Yes, I'm thinking examples would be necessary here. I consider myself pretty good with dialogue, and I'd be glad to take a look.



Example above ^


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## Deborah Dalton (Jul 20, 2011)

An old trick is to add an unexpected, non-cliched quirk - which could be a quirk or it could actually define the character. Example - a truck driver with a my little pony on his dashboard. For all we know, it could have been given to him by a niece or he could secretly be a flamer. For villains, those quirks tend to be a bit darker.

Maybe your villain really likes his pet squirrel, or cherishes an old penny whistle, or collects belly buttons (because ears, toes, fingers, noses, and unmentionables have been used before). Maybe he has an annoying habit, such as always checking the _bottom_ of his drinking glasses before he starts - and then at some point you may disclose the interesting story behind that.

That's the thing - if you give him such a quirk or trait, you'll have to tell the interesting story behind it.


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## Lavender (Jul 20, 2011)

I completely agree, Deborah that's a really good point. At the moment, he has a curious, bejewelled sword but I'm now considering adding something else less obvious to a sword-weilding, power-hungry pixie ruler. (there are reasons for his quest for power, he's not really just blindly seeking it)
Thanks for the advice.


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## Telcontar (Jul 20, 2011)

Lavender said:


> Example above ^



Comments above.


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## sashamerideth (Jul 20, 2011)

Maybe if he were two feet tall he could get away with the bombastic attitude, maybe clean up the dialogue. I recommend reading your dialogue out loud.


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## Donny Bruso (Jul 20, 2011)

I agree with most of Telcontar's statements. Streamlining will help his dialogue some, but I think part of your problem is that the whole situation is rather cliche to begin with: The villain captures his enemy and tries to get information out of them, meanwhile he exposes his whole plan and comes up with an overly elaborate method of killing the hero and his girlfriend. They subsequently escape, and now that they know his horrific plan, they save the day, etc.

Personally, if I'm a villain who has captured my nemesis, the first thing I'm going to do is either shoot him in the head a couple times or cut his throat, depending on technology level. Problem solved, he won't bother me again. Obviously this is not always viable plot-wise, where most people want their hero to survive to the end of the story. But I think in addition to making his dialogue more streamlined, you may need to alter the situation a bit to make it a little less cliche.


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## Lavender (Jul 20, 2011)

Telcontar said:


> Yes, I'm thinking examples would be necessary here. I consider myself pretty good with dialogue, and I'd be glad to take a look.
> 
> EDIT: Yar, example Ninja! My fault for leaving a window open before replying. Alright, let's take a look - although I'll also say that this probably now belongs in the Showcase, really.
> 
> ...



I totally agree with everything you've said and your points have given me a lot to think about in terms of this character. I think it comes through in the dialogue that I haven't taken enough time to properly get inside this characters head - he's been quite neglected when I compare him to what I know about my protagonists. I know his history and what has driven him to be the man (or pixie!) he is today. However I haven't put much thought into his personality which I will aim to remedy.
Thanks a lot for your advice


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## Lavender (Jul 20, 2011)

sashamerideth said:


> Maybe if he were two feet tall he could get away with the bombastic attitude, maybe clean up the dialogue. I recommend reading your dialogue out loud.



Good point, I very rarely do this and may have to get used to doing it more often.



Donny Bruso said:


> I agree with most of Telcontar's statements. Streamlining will help his dialogue some, but I think part of your problem is that the whole situation is rather cliche to begin with: The villain captures his enemy and tries to get information out of them, meanwhile he exposes his whole plan and comes up with an overly elaborate method of killing the hero and his girlfriend. They subsequently escape, and now that they know his horrific plan, they save the day, etc.
> 
> Personally, if I'm a villain who has captured my nemesis, the first thing I'm going to do is either shoot him in the head a couple times or cut his throat, depending on technology level. Problem solved, he won't bother me again. Obviously this is not always viable plot-wise, where most people want their hero to survive to the end of the story. But I think in addition to making his dialogue more streamlined, you may need to alter the situation a bit to make it a little less cliche.



In this particular piece, the villian is not very interested in the people present, he is looking for their accomplice (who just happens to be standing their in front of him - long story). I imagined it as though he was going to kill them when it suited him, if they did not reveal when they knew. I agree the situation is cliche but it is essential to the plot - I may have to rework this section somehow to ease off the cliche-ness of it. This character and the part of my plot surrounding him does need some work!
Thank you for your honest advice, it's really helpful


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