# A long chase



## skip.knox (Dec 21, 2019)

OK horsey folk, Igottaquestion.

I have a chase seen near the end of my WIP. The one fleeing is a wizard who has been thoroughly defeated and now is looking to flee to safety. Pursuing is a band of about twenty men, no significant magic. All are on horseback. The chase will cover right at four hundred miles.

I'm trying to get a sense of two things: how many days from end to end, and the horse variable. While it's theoretically possible for the fleeing wizard to change horses, any she grabs along the way are most likely going to be little more than farm horses. She might get lucky once or twice, but for the most part they aren't going to be speedsters. As for the pursuit, we're talking nobles on war horses, though I can give them a half hour or so at the start to switch to more of a riding horse. In any cases, having them switch horses during the chase is even more problematic.

So, I *might* have a horse swap along the way, I probably would only do that if it served to ratchet up tension in some way. Otherwise, let's assume we have to pace ourselves and stay with the horses that brung us. We're out in the country (specifically, central Poland, roughly between the Oder and the Vistula), so forage and water shouldn't be an issue.

In addition to having a bracket of time (min/max), if you know of any interesting spins I might use, I'd hear them gladly. Individual horses can twist an ankle. Getting across the Oder is a choke point (already handled it). I offer those as examples of what I mean by a spin.

I look forward to hearing from the collective wisdom.


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## Yora (Dec 21, 2019)

When you get to the scale of days, a horse is not meaningfully faster than a human on foot. The main advantage of a horse is that the horse can carry a lot of supplies without being slowed down than you can do by yourself.

It might be worthwhile to look into the sport endurance riding. With suitable horses that are trained for it, it is possible to cover 160km in a day. And the rider needs to have training for that as well. A regular rider on a regular horse would not be able to pull that off. I also don't know how many days of rest the horses need before they can pull such a feat again.

I think the important question is what the wizard and the pursuers are each trying to accomplish. Does he try to shake them? Do they  know where he is going and try to catch him before he gets there?


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## skip.knox (Dec 21, 2019)

These won't be endurance racers. Just people accustomed to horses but not specialized.

The wizard is indeed trying to escape the pursuit. If she can get to the Vistula River, she believes she will reach safety. Her pursuers are trying to prevent that. It isn't necessary for the story that she be caught. I'm not trying to work out the logistics of catching. I'm just looking at close pursuit, and trying to get some general parameters. At 30 miles a day, it's a two week chase, but I don't think the same horse can maintain 30 mpd. It sounds like you're suggesting 20mpd would be closer to the mark.

I should note that both sides are more or less unencumbered. This is a chase and both sides know it from the start.


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## Yora (Dec 21, 2019)

How do the pursuers track her? There will be lots of hoof prints on the road, so following the tracks is unlikely to work.


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## skip.knox (Dec 21, 2019)

Two ways. Our hero has a magical connection to falcons, and he can fly these as scouts. Well, just the one. This method is not always successful, of course, so it's supplemented by this. The wizard--her name is Maddig Vachon--has no money. She fled a batlefield. So she uses her own considerable magical abilities to take food and drink from innkeepers and farmers along the way. It's not too hard to track that. Our hero doesn't know for sure where she's headed, but he has a pretty good guess, and her course appears to be direct.


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## Night Gardener (Dec 21, 2019)

The obvious answer to me is that your wizard is able to drug the horse(s) with potions to increase their endurance, not necessarily for incredible speed.  You could have her do both. She fled a battlefield, so she may have already had it with her to drug herself or other soilders. Or, she could force her steeds to graze on specific wild plants along the way.

A 6-8 hour to a half-day headstart ( to me ) seems the most plausible. Not enough that her trail would go cold, and with enough of a narrow window of time that if too many things go wrong ( bad weather, horse goes lame and she can't find a suitable replacement, sudden changes in terrain, etc. ) that her pursuers can gain ground and catch up.

To the idea of the chasers swapping horses.... imo not entirely necessary. Contrary to popular belief, war horses were not always slower, imposing Clydesdale-stature creatures. They might be chosen because they were a few hands higher than the typical horse. They might be slower in comparison to a modern racehorse, but racehorses carry polyester jockeys and not warriors.  Plus, warhorses had to travel to the battlefield from wherever on campaign, train for endurance, charges, obedience, etc. 

Now, these warriors would hold their horses in high esteem, and value them tremendously.  This is an advantage for your fleeing wizard to exploit. They would not dare wind their horses. The wizard might, because she is stealing horses as she needs them. 

The other thing that your wizard could do, is give the horse temporarily better night vision so they could ride well into the night (horses have good night vision, but to better it would be a worthwhile advantage.) 

Now, if the wizard is discarding spent horses without tying them up somewhere (at say, a farm where she's stealing a new horse which would at least let the spent horse recover vs. tethering them in the wilderness to die) that means she's leaving a trail of breadcrumbs...as horses will try to return home (most of the time lol).  So, your riders would be following tracks and seeing riderless horses walking back from the direction the wizard went: a big clue.  She could tether and abandon the horse, in the wild and I'd want her to rot in hell for it.

Also, riderless horses with their bits removed from the reigns would be nice to read in a book, so the horses could freely and properly graze and you know, not starve. Taking all the head reigns off and the rest of the riding tack off might be necessary just to facilitate using another new horse. 

For speed, she might just steal a horse with the minimum: head reigns and maybe a blanket for a saddle. Properly saddling a horse (especially one that doesn't want to be stolen) takes precious time. 

Also, if you're not a "horse person",  just remember that a horse's personality is basically... housecat with a saddle. Maybe a little bit of dog for obedience.  I'm not an expert either, but I keep company with horsemen. If you have a specific question, shoot me a PM.


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## Yora (Dec 22, 2019)

An undead horse that could run for hours or trot for days would be extremely powerful in a world with realistic horses.


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## Pemry Janes (Dec 22, 2019)

I'm not a horse person myself, but as I understand it remounts for noblemen or even men-at-arms would be expected. They would have used them to get to the battle in the first place. If they're wearing armor and the like, on account of the battle, it would probably be necessary or they'd tire their mounts out a lot faster than the mage.

Which is another thing, the pursuers are trying to catch up to the mage so they need to go faster than her. They might be able to do that by ruining their horses if they don't have remounts, which could be a point of drama.


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## Maker of Things Not Kings (Dec 22, 2019)

Skip my mother in law was a vet for 30 years and worked with horses all the time in her day to day profession, as well as training them to trail rising, pulling historical pioneer wagons as well as sleighs and buggies. She says the 15-20 miles a day is about right if the terrain is suitable to travel BUT that an average horse, even a riding horse, could not cover more than a small part of that distance at a full gallop without stopping or slowing to a trot/walk/rest often, then also needing suitable rest to recover at the end of each riding day as well.

Though it often does not make for exciting chases, her experience is that a horse that trots all day (which they can do with much less rest)) will cover the same ground as a horse that runs all out for spurts and has to stop every so often to recover fully before going on. They can't be trained to exceed those limitations of their physiology (especially if we are talking old school work/riding horses).  What she believes most books and stories miss is the danger for a horse that runs at full speeds on untested ground (off trail or road, so to speak). There are just far too many potential missteps for a horse, especially one with an unfamiliar rider, to navigate and often they simply will refuse to run if they aren't comfortable and this too is not something one can break them of.

One last thing. She feels what people often misunderstand is that a horse is not a car. You cannot exchange one for another and have the same experience horse to horse. No matter what the conditions. Each horse is an individual and will respond differently rider to rider. So even the idea of riders who swapped out horses over a distance often leaves out that little nuisance of each animal being somewhat unique. She has two horses and they could not be more different even though they were raised and trained together. They both gallop and cover similar distances but to ride each successfully/effectively requires HER to handle them differently in subtle ways. 

So, her being a complete realist, she says she has yet to read a horse tale that really strikes her as authentic in regards to the role of the horses. lol

(And thank you for your links on the other post, very much appreciated!)


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## skip.knox (Dec 22, 2019)

@Maker, thanks for that. I wasn't looking for magicking the horses or anything like that, just trying to get a notion as to how long a normal-horse pursuit over 400 miles would take, and whether there would be an opportunity for an interesting angle or unexpected take along the way.

I absolutely would not imagine them at a gallop. We chase her from the battlefield and would gallop after, but that would necessarily slacken quickly. I picture our heroes gaining on her mainly by extending the day. We stay very close to her for a few days, but then she reaches the Oder River and burns the damn bridge, which allows her to open up some distance. Gotta throw a few obstacles in the way, right? After that, it's clawing our way back, trying to close the gap again before she reaches the Vistula. 

I have closing the gap handled. It's really about having a basic time frame so I can construct the narrative. 15-20 miles pushes the pursuit to about three weeks. If we are moving at a walk-trot, with normal breaks, can a horse hold that pace for three weeks? Mongol ponies could, but horse breeds vary greatly. Frederick (the protag) had a favorite horse which was a pesano. I can certainly see one or two in the pursuit party having a horse that simply gives up after a week or two, unable to stand the pace. I think I'm ok with 15-20 (terrain and weather would factor) over three weeks, but would love to have confirmation.

Question: in such a journey, how often do we stop for water and food for the horses? I can picture the men eating in the saddle (they'll have to forage for food, same as the wizard; not many people bring a sandwich to a battle), but the horses couldn't eat on the walk. An hour of grazing each evening be enough? I do know horses eat. A lot. For reference, we're moving through scattered settlements, but not complete wilderness. Should be able to come across a village a day.

Another question: if we're on a dirt road, what would be the considerations for pushing on into the night? I'm picturing the wizard, anyway, doing this initially, trying to open up a lead. She might push so hard the horse drops or gets hurt. She's a wizard, after all, not a horse master. She might make mistakes Frederick (who was an excellent horseman) would not.

Thanks to all who've replied so far. I continue to be fascinated by the way in which practical realities affect how one tells the story.


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## Maker of Things Not Kings (Dec 22, 2019)

skip.knox said:


> Another question: if we're on a dirt road, what would be the considerations for pushing on into the night? I'm picturing the wizard, anyway, doing this initially, trying to open up a lead. She might push so hard the horse drops or gets hurt. She's a wizard, after all, not a horse master. She might make mistakes Frederick (who was an excellent horseman) would not.



I'll ask her about the other questions tonight. 
As for the night riding question, here's a link she sent:

https://www.equisearch.com/articles/riding-your-horse-night

The info is more modern-rider oriented but there are some good bits in there about eyes adjusting, contrasting light, pacing etc for night riding. And steady moonlight seems best.


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## Pemry Janes (Dec 23, 2019)

skip.knox said:


> Another question: if we're on a dirt road, what would be the considerations for pushing on into the night? I'm picturing the wizard, anyway, doing this initially, trying to open up a lead. She might push so hard the horse drops or gets hurt. She's a wizard, after all, not a horse master. She might make mistakes Frederick (who was an excellent horseman) would not.


Not seeing the potholes. Real mundane, but a horse's legs are vulnerable. Also, I can see her getting completely lost in the dark, or even losing the road. It gets dark, real dark, without modern lighting and there's not going to be proper signage and the like.


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## skip.knox (Dec 23, 2019)

Cool. I didn't know that horses saw well at night. So a bit of night riding is at least possible. Good way to raise tension levels. But I can't see that riding night *and* day would be a good idea. Everyone would wear out more quickly. And once it's clear that Maddig Vachon didn't flee the battle simply to find a hiding place, Frederick soon guesses that she's aiming for the Vistula (there's another empire over there, across that river). So he knows he's in for a long ride.

And now I have yet-another-question: horseshoes. Do my horses go 400 miles without a change of shoes? And, I guess, any other wear and tear considerations.

Thanks for all replies so far.


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## ThinkerX (Dec 23, 2019)

first thought:

lay a false trail, maybe with magic, double back, take an unanticipated route.

second thought, in connection with the first.

ditch the solo horse routine altogether, hitch a ride with a caravan/peddler/farmer sort, use a bit of charm magic to make him think she's his cousin or long ago love interest or whatnot.  She becomes one of a vast multitude of travelers of no particular distinction.


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## skip.knox (Dec 23, 2019)

I'm not really looking for ways to help her escape, but I do appreciate the comments. At the very least, I need to keep in mind reasons why she *doesn't* try these or similar gambits. 

I'm really just after the considerations of a long-distance pursuit on horseback.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 23, 2019)

mpd depends so much on terrain, etc. I’ve been around endurance racing some, and they do these things without raising the horse’s heart rates above such and such levels, a hundred miles per day without dangerous stress. Pushing for your life, a horse can do impressive shit. But again, terrain. I’ve never researched old west with posses, but I’d wager that’d be a lot of guessing. A cattle drive COULD be pushed 25 mpd but the cattle would lose too much weight, so, 10-12 was more a norm. If you can drive cattle 20-25... Horseback, 30 per day is not unreasonable at IMO. Plus, in a life and death race... you’ve got fudge room.

Shoes... you can throw them anytime, or not. If the metal isn’t junk, you should be good.


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## Maker of Things Not Kings (Dec 25, 2019)

skip.knox said:


> And now I have yet-another-question: horseshoes. Do my horses go 400 miles without a change of shoes? And, I guess, any other wear and tear considerations.



Hey skip! Hope some of this is useful. . . 

Standard rule is four to six weeks on shoeing. There are a number of things that can signal a need to reset or reshoe earlier including:

Any sign of loose nails pushing up from the hoof wall
Nails that protrude out of the shoe on the underside.
Loose fits.
The hoof has begun to overgrow the shoe (hoof trimming is usually done when shoes are removed, so also every four to six weeks. The rate of hoof growth is tied to nutrition so it varies.) 
The shoe is worn thin or shows uneven wear.

Also, yes, horses can live on grazing alone but that depends on the nutrients in the grasses they are eating, the soil and the amount of energy expended in between grazing periods. 

She also told me to mention that natural, unshod horses were not that uncommon in many parts of the world (horse shoes, it's thought, were developed in the middle ages for soldiers horses that had to travel over rough terrain) and are seeing a resurgence today. Horses did fine on their own long before man decided to shoe them AND it's now thought there is no performance value to shoeing horses for the most part. . . that an unshod horse can be as fast, as agile and as safe as one with shoes. Hoof trimming and nutrition are the key there and shoes only became necessary once people began to confine horses to smaller areas where they got less wear on the hooves and where the horses were often standing in their own urine and feces which leads to a breakdown of the strength/durability of the hooves which become fragile and crack/split. 

And a last thought on distance from the in-law:

It depends also on the peak health of the horse and it's training. A horse can go 30 miles a day IF it's been kept in top shape/ at cardio vascular peak doing that same type of work on a regular basis. Perhaps a free range/ wild horse can cover that type of distance daily, but his involves the horse walking for most of the duration of the day, with short breaks. Of course, a fit horse can travel further. Mounted soldiers often rode their horses more than 20 miles per day but those horses were, by breed and training, made for it and they lived SHORT lives and/or were replaced often. Stabled or short distance horses, who don't have the range to travel day after day, without having been trained to do so, such exertion could result in all sorts of health issues very quickly (think of a human who walks a mile or two a day and seems fit. Now, you ask that human to cover twenty miles a day jogging. Day one they get through.  Two? perhaps. But five days in, ten days in, without proper nutrition and adequate rest. It might likely be a recipe for disaster or it could create an outright refusal of the horse to move.  Despite all our old west movies of horses doing what their riders wanted on a whim, it's just not true when it comes to exhaustion. Man can't say _Giddyup_ and MAKE a horse do anything it isn't physically capable of doing.  Horses love to run and move, but not when they've hit their limit.


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## skip.knox (Dec 25, 2019)

Yes it does help. And please thank your mother-in-law for taking time. This is the sort of thing that doesn't fit well into a search string. Please let her know that I do realize that there are so many variables it's nearly impossible to give estimates, and the more one knows the more difficult it is. 

What I have now, though, is exactly what I needed and didn't quite know it: a range of choices by which I can realistically vary the pacing of the pursuit. The whole thing won't take more than a chapter, so I only need a couple of dials to twist. The big variable now is going to be the siting of the battle. It's settled that Maddig has to make it to the Vistula because that marks the western border of the Orc Empire. I can't really have them any further west.

So, if I have the big battle--from where the pursuit begins--at Dresden or thereabouts, I'm talking a month-long pursuit. That's too long. So now I'm looking around for another site, further east. Probably along the Oder River. I just can't envision my emperor, fresh from a major victory over invading trolls and only recently ascended to the throne, deciding to pursue the wizard for a whole month. He'd have pressing business back home. Plus, I'm only just now realizing (duh) that he has to come *back* again.

Logistics. Get you every time.

Anyway, thanks and all best wishes.


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## Malik (Jan 15, 2020)

Yora said:


> When you get to the scale of days, a horse is not meaningfully faster than a human on foot.



I'm late to this party and I don't want to start a fight, but a horse making time, at anything past a walk that the rider is intentionally slowing down to keep up with people on foot, is moving at 4 mph. This is an INSANE physical feat for a human to hold for more than a couple of hours. It doesn't seem like much until you're about a mile into it and trying to keep up. A respectable marathoner runs 26 miles in 5 hours, or ~5 mph. The Army standard for deployment readiness is 3 miles in 45 minutes (4 mph)--my unit standard is 6 miles in 90 minutes, so kill me, please--with a 45-lb. ruck, helmet, and weapon, over gentle hills and maybe on trails, although one sadistic son of a bitch made us do 24 laps on a track for time. In Florida. In June. And I hope when I die I go to hell so I can have the opportunity to beat the crap out of him every afternoon for eternity. But I digress.

Point being, holding 4 mph all day is nearly impossible unless you're from a tribe or race that has had you running your entire life. Masai warriors whohunt the grasslands barefoot can hold this kind of pace day in and day out. Most people can't. I know all our fantasy heroes somehow can, but that's on the writer to explain. I recommend anyone who hasn't done it to go to a gym and get on a treadmill at a 15:00 pace and see how many miles you can finish before you have to slow the belt down.

TL; DR: A horse will outstrip you after an hour and in two hours will be out of sight unless you're an absolute unit.


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## skip.knox (Jan 15, 2020)

Good information from Malik. It also helps put into perspective the accomplishments of someone like Julius Caesar, who (by his own testimony, admittedly) covered something like forty miles a day at need. Which is one reason why he scared the bejabbers out of Pompey & Co. and why they ran for Greece once Caesar crossed out of Cisalpine Gaul. Moving that fast with an army must have been terrifying.

Anyway, thanks to Malik, even though he was late to the party and didn't bring any booze.


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## Malik (Jan 15, 2020)

Thanks, Skip.

The "Big Army" in my series are Dragoons, who travel by horseback and then dismount to fight. They specifically do this so that they can cover huge distances in a short amount of time, and by leaving their horses off the field, they don't have to worry about walking home. In my second book, the MC is stunned at how fast an enemy army just appears around his castle; he wakes up one morning and they're there. A battalion-strength unit of Dragoons can cover 50-60 miles in a day, every day, and can do it under cover of heavy forest canopy or sticking to draws where your scouts will never see them. They just show up out of nowhere ready to make your life hell.


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## ThinkerX (Jan 16, 2020)

Malik said:


> I'm late to this party and I don't want to start a fight, but a horse making time, at anything past a walk that the rider is intentionally slowing down to keep up with people on foot, is moving at 4 mph. This is an INSANE physical feat for a human to hold for more than a couple of hours. It doesn't seem like much until you're about a mile into it and trying to keep up. A respectable marathoner runs 26 miles in 5 hours, or ~5 mph. The Army standard for deployment readiness is 3 miles in 45 minutes (4 mph)--my unit standard is 6 miles in 90 minutes, so kill me, please--with a 45-lb. ruck, helmet, and weapon, over gentle hills and maybe on trails, although one sadistic son of a bitch made us do 24 laps on a track for time. In Florida. In June. And I hope when I die I go to hell so I can have the opportunity to beat the crap out of him every afternoon for eternity. But I digress.
> 
> Point being, holding 4 mph all day is nearly impossible unless you're from a tribe or race that has had you running your entire life. Masai warriors whohunt the grasslands barefoot can hold this kind of pace day in and day out. Most people can't. I know all our fantasy heroes somehow can, but that's on the writer to explain. I recommend anyone who hasn't done it to go to a gym and get on a treadmill at a 15:00 pace and see how many miles you can finish before you have to slow the belt down.
> 
> TL; DR: A horse will outstrip you after an hour and in two hours will be out of sight unless you're an absolute unit.


which is why the quasi-roman legions of my main world travel via bicycle.  heavy, clunky, single speed contraptions with solid rubber on the rims.  But still - 4-8 miles an hour (kit and road conditions depending), 40 - 80 miles a day, maybe a hundred if they really push it.


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