# Copyright and Trademark Questions



## Steerpike

If any of you have Copyright or Trademark questions, whether relating specifically to Publishing or otherwise, feel free to post them in this thread and I'll answer. I'm sure other members of the forums will provide answers as well, which is good. It is nice to have a broad range of experience to bring to bear. Of course, I should point out that nothing posted by anyone in this thread will constitute legal advice 

I'm also happy to entertain Patent questions, as well as questions relating to other areas of law.


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## Ravana

Stuck thread.

(What Steerpike failed to mention above is that, while nothing here will constitute "legal advice," he happens to be qualified to _give_ it.)


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## Ankari

Wow, I have questions:

1)  I've been world building and doing so publicly (its online and the link is in my signature).  My question is: should I do this?

2)  I hear there are two ways of copyrighting: for website you simply put a copyright symbol versus actually filing it with the copyright office.  Is the first option enough?  Please keep in mind that I make frequent modifications to the website.

3)  If the answer to number 2 is "its not enough" when should I submit my work to the copyright office?

4)  Also, my logo is my own.  I had someone make it for me and I have the contract to prove it.  Do I need to trademark it?

5) Thanks.


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## Steerpike

1) The basic ideas encompassed in your world building are not protectable. So doing it publicly means you run the risk that someone will like an idea, use it, and there won't be much you can do about it. On the other hand, there may be reasons to keep doing what you are doing - enjoyment, exposure, feedback, etc. It really comes down to with how comfortable you are having the material out there. To the extent you have actual stories online, you're giving up First Rights, and those can  be valuable.

2) Copyright automatically vests in you as soon as you put you work in a "tangible medium of expression." Thus, you own the copyright to the content on your site whether you mark it or not. You don't have to actually do anything. That said, registration is generally a prerequisite to filing an infringement action, and if you don't register soon enough after publication you give up certain damages if you ever have to enforce the copyright.It isn't really feasible to register the content of a constantly-changing site, however. I'd just mark it. If you have something important enough to you to register, then I recommend doing so as soon as you publish it.

3) See 2.

4) You may or may not own the copyright to the logo, no matter what the contract says. Copyright can only be transferred by an actual written assignment. If you don't have that, the artist who created the logo may well still own the copyright and you should ask for an assignment. The trademark is yours once you start using the logo. You build up common law rights in the geographical area in which you use the mark. A Federal Registration gives you protection nationwide. For example, if you are using a mark in California, and five years later someone uses it in Montana, you can't stop them, even if you expand into Montana. If you had a Federal Registration before they started in Montana, you could stop them once you expand there.

5) You are welcome


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## Ankari

Thanks for the prompt reply.  I need a little clarification please.

1) I won't be putting any stories online, but that being said when an online store like Barnes & Noble allow readers to read a chapter, they author is giving up his or her right to the publication?

2) So in the world building that I am doing right now - things like magic systems, character art and description, national names and histories, and religions - can be used by someone if they want to?

3) A written assignment means that the artist grants me rights of ownership to the art?  The contract states that I own the works that she made for me but you are saying I need another document that does the same thing?

4) By placing my work online doesn't that make it universal?


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## Steerpike

1) When you see a sample on B&N or Amazon, it is of an already published material. The author has already sold it or decided to self-publish or whatever. What I mean by giving up First Rights is that a lot of publishers or publications want to buy First Rights, and if you've already published on line you can't sell them First Rights anymore. These days, that seems to be becoming less of an issue.

2) Magic systems will be tough. Character art is copyrighted. That belongs to you. Very detailed description of characters can provide you with some room to argue if someone makes an identical character, but it isn't a sure thing. Place names won't be protectable by copyright. Your particular embodiments or descriptions of your detailed histories and religions are protected, but the underlying ideas behind them generally are not.

3) It all depends on what the contract says. Does it actually say that the artist is assigning copyright to you? If so, then OK. If it doesn't say that, then you may have left the copyright with the artist.

4) That's a tough issue. Usually, you have to have something more than just a passive site online for trademark rights to accrue in a given area. Remember, trademarks serve primarily a consumer-protection function. If you're not doing something more to use the mark as a trademark in a stream of commerce, your protection will be limited. A federal registration can help with that, but it comes down to whether you want to spend the money on it. The issue is very fact-specific and it comes down to what you are doing with the site.


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## gavintonks

we have a 20/25% variance here as acceptable difference on published concept which in itself is a conundrum and statue of limitations especially in the music industry before it becomes public domain - just a comment


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## ALB2012

Ok question

Is there anyway of proving copyright for E books- I know you automatically own the rights but if there is no physical copy is there a way of proving?

Would saving it as a PDF


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## gavintonks

most computers date stamp your writing and has a digital signature. pdf is just a scanned document which usually you cannot change, so the idea of authoring is proof the information is yours and you generated when you said you did. If it i in the public domain there would be a record of when it was uploaded so people who did similar things it could be said they saw your work.

However if your work was never published you cannot run around and say your idea was stolen either. An author has automatic rights to the authored work


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## Steerpike

ALB2012 said:


> Ok question
> 
> Is there anyway of proving copyright for E books- I know you automatically own the rights but if there is no physical copy is there a way of proving?
> 
> Would saving it as a PDF



It is pretty easy to fake that sort of thing (one example, you could change the date in your BIOS). 

A couple of ideas:

1) you could upload the work to a cloud service where a third-party server is time and date-stamping the file as it is received;
2) you could print a copy and have it signed and dated by witnesses who would be willing to testify, if you ever ended up in court, that they saw the completed work as of the date and time indicated.

Proof of possession as of a certain date is always a fact-specific issue, so the more you can do to provide a basis for your claim, the better off you are as a rule. Within reason, of course.


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## T.Allen.Smith

There's also a little trick called the poor man's copyright. Print off a copy then mail it to yourself via registered mail. The way the post office handles registered mail is to seal all seams with a special tape and date stamp across those seams. Throw it in a closet somewhere once you get it back.


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## Christopher Wright

I hear about the "poor man's copyright" a lot, but according to Snopes it has no real legal value in the US:

snopes.com: Poor Man's Copyright

Apparently the problem is that courts won't recognize it as your work--they'll just recognize it as a copy of the work in question, with your name on it, that you mailed to yourself. "He could have intentionally placed his name on it with the intent to infringe my client's copyright," the opposing attorney will say...


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## Benjamin Clayborne

*Register it with the U.S. Copyright Office,* that being the purpose of the U.S. Copyright office.


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## Svrtnsse

I'm building a world and when I started it I decided that there should be hobbits in it. I've been working on it for a while, I like it and I've gotten used to thinking of my hobbits as hobbits. They're not exactly like they are in Middle Earth, but they're close enough as makes no difference at first glance.
Then I learned that the word "Hobbit" is a trademark owned by the Tolkien estate.
What kind of trouble would I get in if I got my stories from the world published without changing the name of the race? I've resigned myself to the fact I probably have to go through all I've done and change the word to something else, but I keep putting it off. I like the word and I don't really want to change it unless I have to.
Any advice or thoughts on this?


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## Steerpike

You're asking for trouble.

First, to be clear, you only infringe a regular trademark when you use it in a way that is confusingly similar to that of the trademark owner. So just having the mark in your story is probably OK. Having it in the title or something would be problematic.

With famous marks, you have to consider so-called blurring and tarnishment. These do not rely on a likelihood of confusion. Of course, most marks aren't considered "famous" in the sense that they get this extra protection. As far as I know, a determination has never been made as to whether "hobbit" is a famous trademark. If you got sued and it was determined to be famous, that would be problematic.

But the biggest problem you have is that the rights holders in this case are more than happy to bring legal action against people. Not long ago, they threatened a "Hobbit" pub that has been in Southampton for some time. What you have to consider is this: if they sue you and are willing to bring a trademark suit all the way through trial, it could cost you half a million dollars to defend the lawsuit even if you are right and end up winning in the end. 

So, it is a risk. I think there are certainly arguments in your favor that you aren't violating any trademark. But if they sue you do you have the time and money to defend the lawsuit and prove you are right? If not, I think it would be better to change it before you publish than to be forced to go back and change it later (and maybe destroy any extant copies with the infringing use).


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## Svrtnsse

Thanks.
I guess it's time to try and think of a good name.


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## 071095se

I'm not sure if this had been mentioned at all but it seems relevant. But I'd just like to put it out there that all Dungeons and Dragons monsters can be used freely EXECPT for the Beholder and Ilithid or Mind flayer of which the right are owned by Wizards of the coast


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## Steerpike

071095se said:


> I'm not sure if this had been mentioned at all but it seems relevant. But I'd just like to put it out there that all Dungeons and Dragons monsters can be used freely EXECPT for the Beholder and Ilithid or Mind flayer of which the right are owned by Wizards of the coast



This isn't exactly right.

First, keep in mind that WotC identifies certain creatures as Product Identity in their licenses: OGL and GSL. When you operate under those licenses, you are agreeing, contractually, that WotC owns those creatures/terms. No one writes a novel under OGL or GSL, so what WotC calls Product Identity in its license agreements with other game publishers is irrelevant.

Secondly, there is nothing whatsoever to stop WotC asserting trademark rights over other creatures or IP of theirs, whether mentioned as Product Identity in their license agreements or not.

On a positive note, a lot of the stuff surrounding D&D is less protectable than WotC wants people to believe.

On a negative note, WotC/Hasbro has the money to make your life miserable if you use some of it and they decide to make an example of you.


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## Benjamin Clayborne

Steerpike said:


> On a negative note, WotC/Hasbro has the money to make your life miserable if you use some of it and they decide to make an example of you.



Yeah. The saddest thing about the law is that what it says and how it is enforced in practice are not identical.


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## Nihal

Oh, this topic is exactly what I needed! I have a copyright-related doubt, in this case I need to decipher some legal-sounding verbiage. It can be useful for people who find their works floating on the internet.

I just stumbled with some works of mine being used in random portfolios. I contacted one requesting removal (I always request directly first), but I'm unable to contact the other, for the site seems to be incomplete and lacks contact information. So, I'll rely on the "poor man's copyright claim": I'll file a Copyright Claim to the host/registrar.

I was lucky, this one is using goDaddy. And here I my trouble starts, for I am having a hard time to understand an statement, for I've never filed a complaint to an U.S. based registrar:

To be considered effective, a notification of a claimed copyright infringement must be provided to Go Daddy and must include the following information:


*An electronic signature of the copyright owner, or a person authorized to act on behalf of the owner, of an exclusive copyright that has allegedly been infringed.*
Identification of the copyrighted work claimed to have been infringed, or, if multiple copyrighted works at a single online site are covered by a single notification, a representative list of such works on that site.
Identification of the material that is claimed to be infringing or to be the subject of infringing activity and that is to be removed or access to which is to be disabled, and information reasonably sufficient to permit Go Daddy to locate the material.
Information reasonably sufficient to permit Go Daddy to contact the Complaining Party, such as an address, telephone number, and, if available, an electronic mail address at which the Complaining Party may be contacted.
A statement that the Complaining Party has a good faith belief that use of the material in the manner complained of is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law.
A statement that the information in the notification is accurate, and under penalty of perjury, that the Complaining Party is the owner, or is authorized to act on behalf of the owner, of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed.

The number one would be a link to your work—e.g. _my_ portfolio? Or would it be, literally, an image with my signature?


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## Devor

Nihal said:


> *An electronic signature of the copyright owner, or a person authorized to act on behalf of the owner, of an exclusive copyright that has allegedly been infringed.*



I'm fairly sure they just want the email to come from an account registered to the copyright holder.  But esignature can mean a few different things, so I would poke around the website a bit.  It's okay to email them and ask if you're really not sure.


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## phaze112

*Question*

My trademark question is pretty basic.  I am starting a hunting/fishing knife company and did the research on the uspto.gove site.  No live matches came up, however on amazon I see a company that makes knives/fishing tools using a name that is very similar to the company name I want to use (different by one letter, E and not a U).

They appear to not have the name trademarked, as it doesn't come up on the uspto.gov trademark search.

If I I trademark the name, would I have full rights to it even though this other company has been in business for what seems like 5+ years.


Or does length of business pull some type of weight.

thanks for the help!

I'm in the United States by the way.


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## Steerpike

If the company has been using it, they'll have some common law trademark rights. If you file for a federal registration, their use might be cited against you by the trademark examiner. If you manage to get the registration, you'll have nationwide priority _except_ where this other company has already been selling. For example, if they're selling in Maine, then you can never go into their territory in Maine with any trademark priority even though you have the federal registration and they don't.

It's safer to pick a non-similar name, both because of the priority issue and because the USPTO may well cite the other company's mark against you. It's not impossible to get the mark you want, but it won't be as valuable to you as one that gives you clear nationwide rights.

That's my view on it.


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## Svrtnsse

I'm using a wiki site from wikia.com to put up stories I've written on the web. Edits on the wiki are licensed under the CC-BY-SA license (Creative Commons &mdash; Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported &mdash; CC BY-SA 3.0). Copyright on wikia wikis is explained in slightly more detail on Help:Copyright - Wikia Community Central

From what I'm reading from the above links I'm "free to make commercial use of the work". I'm thinking that once I have enough material I'll compile it into an ebook and sell it on Amazon (for cheap). Is that something I'd be allowed to do, or am I missing something and I could get into trouble for doing that?
The stories in question would be on protected pages meaning only people with admin rights on my wiki (which is just me) are able to edit them.


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## Breezybealle

I was wondering how to determine whether something you find on the internet is publishable or not. For example, I am in a forum that someone has posted a writing prompt that I find appealing. Within the forum guidelines, it *specifically states that it is "public domain"* and that all ideas/info/etc... written in that particular forum are up for grabs to be used in any way, shape or form by anyone for anything. If I were to publish a book and wanted to use a specific writing prompt or two, how do I discern whether I have the right to do so without breaking any rules? Do I even need to credit anyone? Do I need to credit the website itself? The author of the forum thread? Or can neither be done even though it states that anything written in that particular thread is free to use?


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## Sia

I see those creative common license things around all the time. Do they have any legal weight or are they more of a 'I wish  you would/wouldn't do this?" To be frank, though, I really don't care about anything beyond credit and keeping my babies far away from pay sites.


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## Graylorne

A small trademark question: In my Dutch books I'm translating in English, the dead grandfather of my MC was a king with the nickname (in Dutch) Man-van-Staal, what not surprisingly translates as Man-of-Steel, because he was a knight and a great warrior. His name is mentioned once or twice in the first 2 books, and that's all. I can't imagine infringing any trademark rights or anything. I hadn't even connected the two, as comics aren't exactly a big thing in NL (except for Donald Duck), until somebody mentioned it. Any advice?


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## Steerpike

Breezybealle said:


> Within the forum guidelines, it *specifically states that it is "public domain"* and that all ideas/info/etc... written in that particular forum are up for grabs to be used in any way, shape or form by anyone for anything.



This isn't necessarily true, whether the forum says it or not. If you want to use something created by someone else, contact the author. If it is something as small as a writing prompt, you probably don't need to do that, though attribution is always appreciated.


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## Steerpike

Sia said:


> I see those creative common license things around all the time. Do they have any legal weight or are they more of a 'I wish  you would/wouldn't do this?" To be frank, though, I really don't care about anything beyond credit and keeping my babies far away from pay sites.



Yes, if someone releases something under a creative commons or "open" license of some kind, it has legal weight. That's an option that a copyright owner can take.


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## Steerpike

Graylorne said:


> A small trademark question: In my Dutch books I'm translating in English, the dead grandfather of my MC was a king with the nickname (in Dutch) Man-van-Staal, what not surprisingly translates as Man-of-Steel, because he was a knight and a great warrior. His name is mentioned once or twice in the first 2 books, and that's all. I can't imagine infringing any trademark rights or anything. I hadn't even connected the two, as comics aren't exactly a big thing in NL (except for Donald Duck), until somebody mentioned it. Any advice?



Mentioning his name in the books like that isn't likely to cause you any trouble, Graylorne. You're not even using it as a trademark. If you put "man of steel" on the cover or in the title, you might have a problem.


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## Graylorne

No, it's in quite a different contaxt, too. Thanks, Steerpike. I'll leave it in.


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## Paladin

*Seeking advice about protecting my ideas/IP*

Edit:  As the thread title states, I'm looking for actual, detailed advice, not yes/no lists.  If you're going to answer my questions, please do elaborate and leave some detailed answers that both answer my questions as well as give me some advice about how I should proceed. What I should do now and what I should do later. Do I need a trademark? Do I need to form a company before I start releasing anything? When it comes to protecting a fantasy world IP, how would I go about getting a copyright on something like that? It's obviously quite different from simply copyrighting one story, since a world concept is always changing and I can imagine the laws would work a bit differently. Etc. etc.  Please describe the plan you think I should follow to have the best chance of protecting my IP.  Both in my own country and abroad. Thank you for your time. 

Edit: I realize I'm talking a lot about video games and RPG's in this thread and I'm not sure how much that medium is discussed or accepted on mythicscribes. However, I feel my questions are still relevant for these forums since I would like to have novels and graphic novels which use my IP as a setting as well. 

Edit: I understand that no advice given on these forums constitutes as professional legal advice.  I'm just looking for casual advice and direction from those with experience.  However, if anyone with the credentials and experience would like to offer their professional services as a legal consultant, please feel free to PM me and let me know how I should contact you outside the forums.  If this sort of request isn't allowed on the forums, I apologize and will ask that it please be disregarded then. If need be, a mod can edit the above request out or ask that I do so. 


Hello, I'm an amateur game dev and fiction writer who's been working, in my spare time, for some years now on developing some games. Classic RPG's mostly.  I feel like I'm reaching a point where I may be ready to start releasing some games beyond my close circle of friends. 

I've spent several years developing a very detailed and immersive fantasy world which I use as the setting for my games and stories.  

So, this brings me to my dilemma...

I'm very protective of my ideas and IP, as most writers and artists would be. I've put years of my life into it. So, I'm very concerned about releasing games/stories (some of which may be free) and having my ideas/IP stolen. 

I realize good ideas are pretty easy to come by and there's 7 billion other people out there that may (and probably are) better at world building, writing and game design than me... and that I probably don't have too much to worry about realistically. However, this doesn't ease my fears in the slightest.  I'm just a writer that wants to tell my stories and share my world with others while using a medium I highly respect... without some larger company or random scam artists coming along and stealing it all away from me. 

I do plan to always fully manage every aspect of my rpg projects and stories myself.  I will always self publish, I have no plans to ever sell or sign any of my rights to my IP, games or stories away. 

I currently live in the U.S. but my game releases would probably be mostly digital downloads online.  As for stories, I may go through a self publishing company or simply publish them online somehow or as e-books. 


My Questions:

1. How should I go about legally protecting my IP and my stories and characters in general and for the long term?  


2. What should I do in the short term to protect my IP before I start releasing games or stories that use my IP as a setting?


3. In preparation for worst case scenarios, how should I go about making sure my IP is protected from team members or contractors who may work with me for a while then decide to take my ideas and run?  


4.  Is my IP always legally separate from any art, music or programming I hire someone else to do for the games or stories?  Is there any way that an artist or programmer can legally argue that they hold some legal rights to my IP because they supplied art, music or programming skills to it? If so, is there any way to avoid this trap? 


5. Since I would be releasing games for download online... is it possible that someone from some other country could try to steal the rights to my IP and get away with it because of different laws?  If so, is there any way to prevent this? 


6. Do I really need to hire or consult with a lawyer or some sort of legal consultant about this first?  If so, what sort of legal professional should I look for? 


7.  Anything else I should know about the legalities of IP ownership or watch out for?  Helpful advice is appreciated. 


I know some of these questions are probably pretty basic but I'd be the first to say that I'm a writer not a lawyer. I wouldn't be asking legal questions in the first place if I knew anything about this. So I would really appreciate some helpful answers and advice. 


Thanks for the help!


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## Devor

Paladin said:


> Thanks for the help!



Paladin, I'm merging your post into Steerpike's Trademark thread to make sure that he sees it.  You should also refer to the other posts in the thread, as some of your questions may have already been answered.


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## psychotick

Hi,

Sorry - a bit slow here. What exactly is an IP?

Cheers, Greg.


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## Feo Takahari

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sorry - a bit slow here. What exactly is an IP?
> 
> Cheers, Greg.



Intellectual property.

Alternatively . . .


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## Paladin

Devor said:


> Paladin, I'm merging your post into Steerpike's Trademark thread to make sure that he sees it.  You should also refer to the other posts in the thread, as some of your questions may have already been answered.



Thanks. 

I did read through this thread before posting but I felt like, while some similar questions were asked, most of my questions were different enough that I should ask them. 

It seemed like this thread hadn't been updated in a year though so I thought I should make my own. I hope my questions won't go overlooked here.


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## Steerpike

I'm workin on an answer to the specific questions now, and will have it posted shortly. Before doing that, I want to point out that if you're seeking protection for your "ideas" as general concepts, you're pretty much out of luck. You can't protect those. It is your specific development and expression of the ideas that gets protection, but you can't stop someone else from using the same concepts and ideas as you.


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## Devor

Paladin said:


> It seemed like this thread hadn't been updated in a year though so I thought I should make my own. I hope my questions won't go overlooked here.



It may take a few days but you'll get an answer.

I'll quickly answer one question, though:

4 - Anyone who works on your IP needs to agree to a relatively simple contract stating who owns which rights to the work being created.  Typically, you would want to ask for full rights but give the artist permission to use it in their personal portfolio (which is often online).  But anything can be negotiated, including "non-exclusive rights," or permission to let the artist use it for "non-commercial" activities (which go beyond portfolios), or a "reversion clause" which returns the rights to the artist, for instance, if you never complete the project.

If you use a freelancer site like Fiverr.com, most artists will state that they'll charge you extra for copyrights.  If you don't pay the extra, you can't use it for commercial endeavors.  Independent freelancers with any experience probably have their own version of the contract, which only needs to be about a page or two or less.  If you google something like "artist copyright contract" you can find samples to use and put one together yourself.


((and he ninja'ed me . . . .))


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## Steerpike

NOTE: Unless I specifically say something about another country, everything below applies to the U.S.*

1. How should I go about legally protecting my IP and my stories and characters in general and for the long term?  
*
 Your stories are protected by copyright as soon as you create them. To enforce those rights, you generally need to register the copyright, and you should do that quickly after publication or you lose a lot of rights. That's the best way to protect the stories. Characters can get copyright protection, but it is a lot more limited in terms of when it kicks in and the extent of coverage you get, and it usually depends heavily on how well defined your own character is. You can't just have a fighter named Dirk who does a walk-on in a scene and expect to cover that as a character. Character names may be protected by trademarks, if you're using them that way. Also, any character artwork is protected by copyright and possibly also trademarks. If you have important trademarks you want to protect, you should register thsoe as well.
*
2. What should I do in the short term to protect my IP before I start releasing games or stories that use my IP as a setting?*

 If it makes sense to spend the money, you can register any copyrights or trademarks in the IP before you go public with it. How much you do in this regard depends on how much you want to spend. 
*
3. In preparation for worst case scenarios, how should I go about making  sure my IP is protected from team members or contractors who may work  with me for a while then decide to take my ideas and run?  *

 It is easier with team members or contractors. Always use a contract. Always have them acknowledge that the IP they are working on as part of their work belongs to you. Get copyright assignments.

*4.  Is my IP always legally separate from any art, music or programming I  hire someone else to do for the games or stories?  Is there any way  that an artist or programmer can legally argue that they hold some legal  rights to my IP because they supplied art, music or programming skills  to it? If so, is there any way to avoid this trap? *

 Copyright vests in the "author" or creator of a work. If you hire someone to create art, for example, then the general rule is that they own the copyright in that art, even though you're paying them to create it. There are exceptions under the work-for-hire doctrine that are beyond what we want to get into here. The good news is that this is a very easy trap to avoid - just get a written copyright assignment from every person who creates for you.

*5. Since I would be releasing games for download online... is it  possible that someone from some other country could try to steal the  rights to my IP and get away with it because of different laws?  If so,  is there any way to prevent this? *

If your work becomes popular, it is not only possible but likely that it will be downloaded in other countries, and that people there might want to use it. For countries that have little or no IP protection, there is nothing you can do to prevent this absolutely, and nothing you can do about it once it happens. For other countries, it comes down to how much you want to spend. Say someone in Australia, China, and India is vioalting your copyrights. You have to go through whatever formal registration processes these countries require (if any) and then hire law firms in each of these countries to take action against the infringers (assuming they can find them). For many people, it is simply too expensive to enforce a lot of foreign rights. I had a client who had to enforce a trademark against knock-offs in three different countries, and in his case it was a pretty straightforward deal. He spent around $10,000 enforcing his IP. If you get in situations where you have to go all the way to trial to enforce rights, you are looking at tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars per case. 

You have to resign yourself to the idea that you are not going to be able to absolutely prevent this, and in a lot of cases even if you can prevent it the cost isn't going to justify it. Within the U.S., you can use DMCA takedown procedures, and some foreign jurisidictions may have similar processes, but if you have to actually go to court against an infringer you're looking at a substantial financial investment. 

*6. Do I really need to hire or consult with a lawyer or some sort of  legal consultant about this first?  If so, what sort of legal  professional should I look for? *

For some of what you've mentioned, you should talk to an Intellectual Property attorney. The trademark registrations, for example. For copyright registrations and things like DMCA takedowns, you can probably do it yourself. For contracts with other who are contributing to the project, it makes sense to consult an IP lawyer to make sure they're written properly and enforceable.
*
7.  Anything else I should know about the legalities of IP ownership or watch out for?  Helpful advice is appreciated.*

I'd concentrate on commercializing and promoting the IP. You definitely want easy protections at the outset - copyrights, and trademarks that are particularly important. If you think you're going to protect broadly against people using similar concepts, or that you're going to reach out around the world and either prevent piracy or infringement, or put a stop to it once it begins, you're going to be disappointed. It's a matter of looking at what is most important, and what is realistic, and building a strategy around that.


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## Steerpike

Devor said:


> It may take a few days but you'll get an answer.
> 
> I'll quickly answer one question, though:
> 
> 4 - Anyone who works on your IP needs to agree to a relatively simple contract stating who owns which rights to the work being created.  Typically, you would want to ask for full rights but give the artist permission to use it in their personal portfolio (which is often online).  But anything can be negotiated, including "non-exclusive rights," or permission to let the artist use it for "non-commercial" activities (which go beyond portfolios), or a "reversion clause" which returns the rights to the artist, for instance, if you never complete the project.
> 
> If you use a freelancer site like Fiverr.com, most artists will state that they'll charge you extra for copyrights.  If you don't pay the extra, you can't use it for commercial endeavors.  Independent freelancers with any experience probably have their own version of the contract, which only needs to be about a page or two or less.  If you google something like "artist copyright contract" you can find samples to use and put one together yourself.



Yep. All good advice. My preference is to get copyright ownership for everything. Some artists won't go for that, and then my advice is to find different artists


----------



## Paladin

Steerpike said:


> I'm workin on an answer to the specific questions now, and will have it posted shortly. Before doing that, I want to point out that if you're seeking protection for your "ideas" as general concepts, you're pretty much out of luck. You can't protect those. It is your specific development and expression of the ideas that gets protection, but you can't stop someone else from using the same concepts and ideas as you.




Thanks so much for the detailed answers Steerpike and Devor. I hope I didn't come off as sounding impatient or anything.  If I did, I apologize for that.  I appreciate the quick reply even though its a holiday weekend. 

I was expecting the answer you gave about copyright violations in other countries. I figured there probably wouldn't be much I could do about it realistically.  I suppose I was hoping for some super secret UN copyright procedure or something lol... but I guess the world isn't that globalized yet. 

I suppose what concerns me the most is having the law turned against me by a larger company who decides my IP could be worth "acquiring".  Being out-trademarked or out-copyrighted or missing some legal loophole that allows them to basically lock me out of my own IP I created.  I've heard of this sort of thing happening before.  I would never sell or sign over the rights to anyone and I always plan on self publishing everything, so having the IP taken from me forcibly would be the only way I'd ever lose it.  I realize unless the IP where to become highly profitable though, this would probably never be an issue.  Though, I've also noticed a trend that a lot of legal mistakes are made when an IP is first being created, when you don't have a lawyer to make sure you do everything by the book and if I'm not careful, this could come back to haunt me later. 

I've been doing some reading myself and I've seen your answer about not being able to copyright ideas, systems, methods etc. echoed in other articles and copyright explanations around the web.  However,  from what I've read, it would seem to say that I can copyright my personal creative expression of my ideas in a "fixed" form. 

An example of some of the articles I read: A citizen's legal guide to American copyright law | New Media Rights

So... this brings me to a new question.   

1.  I'll admit... I don't yet have any "finished" stories or video games that I can copyright.   However, I do have a lot (miles) of notes, I tend to write everything down as it comes to me in as much detail as possible, about my fantasy world setting.  So my question is... does this mean I can basically  pull all my notes together in one huge file and send it/upload it to the copyright office for a copyright?  I would argue that my notes are an original creative expression in a fixed form of my IP/stories/setting.  

2. Also, another question I have is... I've heard that starting a company would possibly allow me to better protect my IP. Is this true?


Thanks again for all the help! I really do appreciate it!  Hope all of you are having a great weekend!


----------



## Graylorne

A question:  I just received a, email from a person (a lawyer, according to internet) in Brazil. He requests me to remove the name of one of my characters in two books, because 'that name belongs to my intellectual heritage' because he used it for over four years as a World of Warcraft player, and he doesn't want his character to be commercially exploited. If I don't reply, he threatens legal action.
First, re. my Dutch books, I contacted my publisher. He will think the matter over, but sees no legal grounds for such a claim, unless the person in question has trademarked his name.
I think, as my selfpublishing business is Dutch as well, Dutch laws apply.

Has anybody experienced a thing like this? An informed opinion? 

I'm not prepared to automatically give in, but as one WoW-player to another, I'm willing to adjust the name in the international edition when the second edition goes live, somewhere in 2015 (I'm rewriting anyhow, and it's easy to add an extra letter to the name while I'm at it.)


----------



## Svrtnsse

This sounds like a load of bullcrap.

You'll find the European terms of use for World of Warcraft here:
Blizzard Entertainment: World of Warcraft Terms of Use

Specifically this part may be of interest:


> XIII. Ownership.
> 
> All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to World of Warcraft (including without limitation any user accounts, titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, "applets" incorporated into World of Warcraft, transcripts of the chat rooms, character profile information, recordings of games played on World of Warcraft, and the World of Warcraft client and server software) are owned by Blizzard Entertainment or its licensors. World of Warcraft is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties and conventions, and other laws. All rights are reserved. World of Warcraft may contain certain licensed materials, and Blizzard Entertainment's licensors may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.



If I'm reading this right then the names of the characters (including player characters) are the intellectual property rights of Blizzard Entertainment.

There's also a section in the naming policies that may help you argue that him using your character's name is in violation of the game's naming policies:



> (3) Subject to the rights of any other person or entity without written authorization from that person or entity;
> (4) That belongs to a popular culture figure, celebrity, or media personality;
> (5) That is, contains, or is substantially similar to a trademark or service mark, whether registered or not;
> (11) Referring to pop culture icons or personas;



To me, it sounds like this guy's just trying to be a dick or to rip you off.


----------



## Graylorne

I think he's emotionally attached to his character, That in itself is something I can relate to. Especially because the one in my books is a very nasty fellow 
I talked it over with my Dutch publisher, because it concerns him, as well. He has a legal background, and that helps.


----------



## Svrtnsse

Graylorne said:


> I think he's emotionally attached to his character, That in itself is something I can relate to. Especially because the one in my books is a very nasty fellow
> I talked it over with my Dutch publisher, because it concerns him, as well. He has a legal background, and that helps.



Indeed, I've played since the game was released, and the names of the characters do become a part of them. It still feels a bit over the top to demand that you change the name of the character in your book - but maybe that's a topic for another thread.


----------



## Steerpike

I'd tell the guy to go jump in a lake. The idea that anyone who makes an MMO character with a certain name has rights in that name is ridiculous on its face.

As an aside, Blizzard's claim to own rights in the name you give your WoW character isn't much better, and I doubt they'd have any luck enforcing that particular provision.


----------



## Graylorne

Yes. He expect us to suffer financial damages (It would mean my Dutch publisher destroying their stocks) because he doesn't want his WoW-character to be commercialized. This sort of thing sets me wondering what he is thinking and I don't fully get it.


----------



## Steerpike

Graylorne said:


> Yes. He expect us to suffer financial damages (It would mean my Dutch publisher destroying their stocks) because he doesn't want his WoW-character to be commercialized. This sort of thing sets me wondering what he is thinking and I don't fully get it.



My guess is he simply doesn't understand intellectual property rights and doesn't understand that creating a WoW character gives him no rights in a name, and it is just an emotional reaction. It could be that he understands this and is just send out what he knows to be unenforceable claims, with the hopes that you'll either make the change or offer him some kind of payment to license the use of the name (which is, of course, a ludicrous idea). In any event, I think I'd simply send a short letter back pointing out that he has no rights in the name, you won't be making any changes, and you consider the matter closed. 

I don't think I'd change the name at all for two reasons 1) it sets a bad precedent; and 2) he might try to use the fact that you changed it as some kind of admission that you were infringing on his rights, which you weren't.


----------



## Graylorne

Steerpike said:


> I don't think I'd change the name at all for two reasons 1) it sets a bad precedent; and 2) he might try to use the fact that you changed it as some kind of admission that you were infringing on his rights, which you weren't.



That's literally what my Dutch editor said


----------



## Steerpike

Graylorne said:


> That's literally what my Dutch editor said



Sound like your editor knows what he/she is doing. People have to deal with spurious claims like this from time to time.


----------



## Graylorne

That's why I'm not ashamed to let him handle the answer. And I'm glad to be able to post these things here and get professional answers, too.


----------



## psychotick

Hi,

There seems to be a more basic question here being overlooked. Has he trademarked the name? What you've reported doesn't seem to suggest he has. If not then he doesn't really have a leg to stand on as far as I can see. And if he has then when you trademark something, you trademark it for certain uses. 

My thought would be to do a USPTO search, and if it's not there, send him a nice letter asking him specifically where his character name is trademarked, when it was trademarked, and for what uses. My guess is that you won't get a reply, because he has not done so. Now he may try to argue that the handle has been in use by him unofficially, but the legal weight of a trademark that has not been made official is I would guess, little.

As for copyright it doesn't apply. You can't copyright a name, just as you can't copyright a title.

But for clarification - I am not a lawyer.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## Steerpike

When a trademark isn't registered, you can still accrue common-law rights, at least in the U.S., and those rights can be enforced, but only within the geographic area in which the mark has been used, and perhaps a reasonable zone of expansion. The internet clouds that a bit, but this guy is in Brazil and I doubt he has a U.S. registration or any U.S. common law rights.


----------



## Graylorne

I sent him a reply, just now. Given the near impossibility to claim names, plus the fact that my use of the name predates his, we see no legal need to comply. Should he have the name registered, he is to let us know.
Let's see if he has anything more to say.


----------



## sankunai

Hi all.  I am going to self publish my first novel in April (If everything works out right), but I'm wondering if I should copyright or trademark anything? Or is it automatically done once I upload it to amazon (or wherever I'll publish).  There's a unique race of elves in my novel (Nothing new, but the name I think is new), and I don't know if I am supposed to copyright that or not.  

Thanks .


----------



## Swordfry

If I put a trademark or copyright of any kind on a story that I will eventually bring to publishers, will that at all affect the publication of the story? Or does the publisher do away with any of those trademarks or copyrights once you sign a contract with them for that story?

This questions sounds a little odd. But I'm only asking it because from what I've read so far, it sounds like you really need to protect your stuff. So if you start a blog or anything like that self promoting your works in progress, having no protection can really leave everything up for grabs for thieves. And apparently self promotion is a very big must do thing for authors today so you can't really avoid this.


----------



## Svrtnsse

I'm making a book, and I want to publish it under a Creative Commons license. I'm a little concerned about how to actually write the notice though. I'd like it to be rather small. Would this be enough, or is it too much/too little/wrong?


> Â© CC BY-SA 2016 <MyNameHere> Some Rights Reserved


Should I go with the full thing?


> Â© CC BY-SA 2016 <MyNameHere> Some Rights Reserved
> This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License.
> 503 Service Unavailable


From what I understand a copyright notice isn't actually required at all, but it's supposedly helpful in that it alerts people there IS a copyright on it.

Also, this isn't for a story, but rather a collection of quotes/proverbs I'm doing.

Someone I talked to suggested:


> Â© 2016 <MyNameHere> CC BY-SA


Is that acceptable?

How important is it that it's written correctly? Does it have to be in a certain specific way, or is the main thing that there's some kind of notice present?


----------



## Steerpike

Svrtnsse 

From a legal standpoint, I'm not sure it makes much of a difference which options you choose. My preference would be to go with a bit of a longer description, though you might say "provided" under the Creative Commons license, not "licensed" under, since you, as the creator, are not licensing the content.

If you're posting this online, I'd link to the applicable license agreement. If you're providing a hardcopy of the work, you can always have the URL of the license in the marking, though that can change over time. Alternatively, you could attached the license at the beginning or end of the work, again in the case of hard copies (if you wanted a person who acquires the work to have the full text of the license with it).


----------



## Svrtnsse

Thanks for the update, even if it's a while since the post. 

What I ended up going with for the hardcopy was:


> © 2016 Nils Odlund CC BY-SA
> ISBN 978-1-5272-0018-0
> 
> https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


For the website, CC provided a bit of code to add to the page so I used that and it's got a link and a little icon etc.


----------



## Steerpike

Svrtnsse said:


> Thanks for the update, even if it's a while since the post.
> 
> What I ended up going with for the hardcopy was:
> 
> For the website, CC provided a bit of code to add to the page so I used that and it's got a link and a little icon etc.



Heh. I only saw it with the forum change! Looks good to me.


----------



## Svrtnsse

Yeah, I figured - and no worries. It's probably still information that's good to have, and maybe someone else will find it useful.


----------



## Garren Jacobsen

In regards to trademarks, take this as an opportunity to not do what this person did. In short, this is a case study of what not to do if you have a trademark.


----------



## Steerpike

Brian Scott Allen said:


> In regards to trademarks, take this as an opportunity to not do what this person did. In short, this is a case study of what not to do if you have a trademark.



There is already a petition to cancel the trademark registration. I believe it has been filed with the TTAB.


----------



## Garren Jacobsen

Steerpike said:


> There is already a petition to cancel the trademark registration. I believe it has been filed with the TTAB.


I saw that. By a former IP litigator no less, but I think he was more patent than TM. But this situation is spiraling downward. RWA is involved and helping people. Amazon is booting series amdvreviews with the word cocky in it. She posted s two hour long diatribe explaining how she’s being attacked. It’s bad.


----------



## Steerpike

Brian Scott Allen said:


> I saw that. By a former IP litigator no less, but I think he was more patent than TM. But this situation is spiraling downward. RWA is involved and helping people. Amazon is booting series amdvreviews with the word cocky in it. She posted s two hour long diatribe explaining how she’s being attacked. It’s bad.



The diatribe, what little I saw of it, was embarrassing. The petition to cancel isn't great, but may be enough to get the job done. I got the feeling that maybe trademarks weren't a big area of focus for him.


----------



## Chessie2

I feel bad for this author, who crazily, because this world is small, happens to be friends with an old high school pal of mine. So...I used to think quite highly of her and now am like...whoa. BUT...in fairness, she was trying to protect her brand. This situation is an important one to witness for many reasons and honestly, she just went about it the wrong way. Should we all be so smart to study what trademark truly is and I think there was a failure to do just that in this case. Someone at the trademark office didn't do their job effectively. The fact that the single word could be trademarked is ridiculous. However, it seems the RWA has stepped in and at least stopped this from going any further (taking down more books with the word on the title) until things get more resolved.


----------



## pmmg

There go my dreams of publishing 'Cocky Cowboy'. I think maybe Ill just make a Cocky Pirate instead.


----------



## Steerpike

Chessie2 said:


> I feel bad for this author, who crazily, because this world is small, happens to be friends with an old high school pal of mine. So...I used to think quite highly of her and now am like...whoa. BUT...in fairness, she was trying to protect her brand. This situation is an important one to witness for many reasons and honestly, she just went about it the wrong way. Should we all be so smart to study what trademark truly is and I think there was a failure to do just that in this case. Someone at the trademark office didn't do their job effectively. The fact that the single word could be trademarked is ridiculous. However, it seems the RWA has stepped in and at least stopped this from going any further (taking down more books with the word on the title) until things get more resolved.



Single words are trademarked all the time--that's allowable under trademark law. In this case, though, the trademark examiner should have expanded the search beyond the realm of prior registered trademarks. More of the responsibility here falls on the shoulder of the author, though, both in the application process (one of the counts in the petition for cancellation alleges fraud on the patent and trademark office) and in the manner in which she attempted to enforce the registration.

it brings up an interesting issue, though. If you have an ongoing series, there is benefit to having the name protected, even if it is a single word. For example, a war hammer is a commonly-known item, but the trademark warhammer (single word) applies to book series. I don't have a problem with a trademark applying to a book series, per se, however the enforcement should be limited to trademark usages and not titles of a single book (although I suspect if anyone wrote a one-off book called "Harry Potter and the Midnight Ghost" (or whatever) they'd have a big problem on their hands!)


----------



## Chessie2

Yeah the series name trademarked makes much, much more sense. The piggyback reasons she gave are, well, questionable imo. I won't go into it any further than that, given there were books published prior to the trademark being granted with the word (or a version of it) on the title/cover. The word is a trope in romance, and what this could effectively do is jeopardize creativity and rob authors of their livelihood (in a bigger version of this). It just seems like more common sense could've been placed behind it all...you know??


----------



## Steerpike

Chessie2 said:


> Yeah the series name trademarked makes much, much more sense. The piggyback reasons she gave are, well, questionable imo. I won't go into it any further than that, given there were books published prior to the trademark being granted with the word (or a version of it) on the title/cover. The word is a trope in romance, and what this could effectively do is jeopardize creativity and rob authors of their livelihood (in a bigger version of this). It just seems like more common sense could've been placed behind it all...you know??



She's also arguing she is doing it to protect her readers, which doesn't hold up well. Trademarks can serve a consumer protection function, but here you have the author's name right on the book. Not likely her fan will buy someone else's book by mistake.


----------



## Devor

I only know a little about these laws from a B-Law course in college, but I'm very confused about the way she's attempting to apply this trademark.

First, it seems like the word "cocky" is too widely in use to be a trademark in the romance genre.  But aren't there also rules about the form in which the word has to be used to be trademarked?  Steerpike mentioned Warhammer, so I'll use that example.  But while Games Workshop owns the trademark for _Warhammer_, I'm pretty sure you could still title a book series, say, _Light of the Warhammer_, couldn't you?  I guess my question is, common word or not, is it really possible for her use of the cocky trademark to be so broad?


----------



## pmmg

I am not sure how I will feel about this if and when trademark becomes my issue, but I'd think I would favor the garage band approach. It don't hurt me to have people sharing things around, in the end I would hope it would have the effect of drawing in more interest. Or, as I sometimes say, I hope I create a product someday that others will want to make knockoff's of.

In this case, trying to claim the word 'Cocky' in a romance genre....yeah, and I want a copyright on the word 'sword' for all the fantasy types.


----------



## Chessie2

Steerpike said:


> She's also arguing she is doing it to protect her readers, which doesn't hold up well. Trademarks can serve a consumer protection function, but here you have the author's name right on the book. Not likely her fan will buy someone else's book by mistake.


Branding should make it unquestionable who you are. That's the whole point of it. I didn't buy this one for a second.


----------



## psychotick

Hi,

Actually I don't have a problem with this woman trying to trademark the word "Cocky". I understand what she wants to do. It's what her attempt at trademarking does that's the issue. Trademarks exist to protect your products. She wants to stop other people from jumping on her bandwagon and using the term to suggest to readers that their books are part of the same creative world. But she goes far beyond that in suggesting that any use of the word "cocky" infringes on her rights.

It's not impossible that someone here might write a book that uses the word in its title, but that said book has no relation to hers and the title does mean to suggest that it does. They should not be affected.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## Chessie2

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> Actually I don't have a problem with this woman trying to trademark the word "Cocky". I understand what she wants to do. It's what her attempt at trademarking does that's the issue. Trademarks exist to protect your products. She wants to stop other people from jumping on her bandwagon and using the term to suggest to readers that their books are part of the same creative world. But she goes far beyond that in suggesting that any use of the word "cocky" infringes on her rights.
> 
> It's not impossible that someone here might write a book that uses the word in its title, but that said book has no relation to hers and the title does mean to suggest that it does. They should not be affected.
> 
> Cheers, Greg.


True...and you're right in that the specific word in question being trademarked doesn't affect any of us on this site (highly doubt it but stranger things have happened).

I do, however, have strong concerns over the fact that generic words can be trademarked to go on titles. For example, if the words 'bride' or 'mail-order bride' were to be trademarked, I'd be fucked as would other authors who write in the same genre/subgenre. What about fantasy type words like sword, dragon, lord, etc? Do you see the possible ramifications here?

Perhaps it'll all blow over and we'll go back to the way things were. But just because this sort of thing doesn't affect you and your indie business personally doesn't mean it won't someday. I think the concern is justified and highly so.


----------



## psychotick

Hi Chessie,

Actually this has impacted me directly. "Alien" is trademarked. And I wrote a book I initially called "Alien". I changed it to Alien Visitor because of the trademark issue. Even though my book had no connection to the sci fi / horror films and books etc, I decided it wasn't worth the trouble. And in fairness the trademark cuts both ways. I wouldn't have wanted my book in any way to be connected to the Alien franchise - it's a completely different work. Who knows - maybe it might have got me a few more readers - but then they would have been pissed off when they read the book and found no alien monsters. I didn't need that.

Cheers Greg.


----------



## Steerpike

Via Twitter:


----------



## Steerpike

Trademarks function to protect consumers and to protect the source or goods and services. Part of the problem here is this likely isn’t a valid trademark to begin with.


----------



## skip.knox

I once had a music project named Blacklight. Sold a few CDs under that name. Then I got a letter from the lawyers for a record production company by the same name (I think they're still in business). They were nice enough to exchange a couple of emails with me ... at least once I was clear that I would change the name of my project.

So, yeah, a word can be trademarked. Remember the Monster kerfluffle? It's all a matter of who can throw their lawyer the furthest.


----------



## Chessie2

But the author's justifications in this case for having gotten the trademark in the first place are highly questionable. I mean, the word is a trope in romance that goes back for ages. How else to describe what those books are about? LOL There are books that predate her series years and years before she even came up with the idea. Sometimes we come up with the same ideas as other authors...but in this case she claims they were all copying her.

For example, one of my book titles has the same name as the series title another author has on her books who writes in my niche. I contacted her about it (plus I had read her books and they were wonderful) and instead of accusing each other of theft we decided to work together to promote our work. This is how it's done in a small community. 

Lol I said I wouldn't comment on this issue again because it gets me heated but the tweets have pacified me for now.


----------



## Garren Jacobsen

Wow, it's already been a whole year since cockygate. Good times.


----------



## Tolkien

Steerpike said:


> If any of you have Copyright or Trademark questions, whether relating specifically to Publishing or otherwise, feel free to post them in this thread and I'll answer. I'm sure other members of the forums will provide answers as well, which is good. It is nice to have a broad range of experience to bring to bear. Of course, I should point out that nothing posted by anyone in this thread will constitute legal advice
> 
> I'm also happy to entertain Patent questions, as well as questions relating to other areas of law.



I was told published books were open to authors to quote small sections from so long as they are sourced. Is this so? For example, I have a book going through its last round of edits that often quotes J.R.R Tolkien and his mythology. I assumed this was ok so long as the quotes were small sections. However, the publishing company has said nothing about it to me. Is there anything I need to do?


----------



## pmmg

Thats the rule far as I know it.

Are making a research material or thesis? I think I would pass on actual footnotes if it was a work of fiction. If, for example, I had a character who quoted Tolkien a lot, I dont think I would bother the reader with footnotes.


----------



## Tolkien

pmmg said:


> Thats the rule far as I know it.
> 
> Are making a research material or thesis? I think I would pass on actual footnotes if it was a work of fiction. If, for example, I had a character who quoted Tolkien a lot, I dont think I would bother the reader with footnotes.



It's a book about Tolkien and Middle-earth.


----------



## Devor

Tolkien said:


> It's a book about Tolkien and Middle-earth.



You should be okay then.  Short passages, properly cited, are fair use, especially if it's like a documentary type thing.  In fact it's kind of weird, but you can sell a book where JRR Tolkein himself is a character who goes into a parody resembling Middle Earth and gets excited about the silly languages and he can quote himself sometimes and it's all fine, but don't dare do that same thing with Frodo Baggins as the MC (at least, not if you want to _sell_ it).


----------



## Tolkien

Devor said:


> You should be okay then.  Short passages, properly cited, are fair use, especially if it's like a documentary type thing.  In fact it's kind of weird, but you can sell a book where JRR Tolkein himself is a character who goes into a parody resembling Middle Earth and gets excited about the silly languages and he can quote himself sometimes and it's all fine, but don't dare do that same thing with Frodo Baggins as the MC (at least, not if you want to _sell_ it).



SO does each and every passage need citation to the chapter it is pulled from?


----------



## CupofJoe

Tolkien said:


> SO does each and every passage need citation to the chapter it is pulled from?


If it was academia, you would probably be citing down to the page and the printing/edition of the book you used to find it.


----------



## Devor

Tolkien said:


> SO does each and every passage need citation to the chapter it is pulled from?



You should use a proper bibliography to be safe.  I don't think footnotes would be necessary.  But an addendum saying "The passage quoted on page 72 is from...."


----------



## Tolkien

Devor said:


> You should use a proper bibliography to be safe.  I don't think footnotes would be necessary.  But an addendum saying "The passage quoted on page 72 is from...."



Thanks for the help. But just wondering here, can I say all quotes from LOTR come from this edition..  all quotes from the hobbit come from this edition or do I really need each and every quote cited in a bibliography in the back.


----------



## pmmg

Well...my college professors would have said one citation per quote. But, I am not sure this is the same as a collegiate work. 

I could make each citation point to the same reference. And you can use a type a shorthand for it as well and still be in the APA standard.


----------



## Tolkien

pmmg said:


> Well...my college professors would have said one citation per quote. But, I am not sure this is the same as a collegiate work.
> 
> I could make each citation point to the same reference. And you can use a type a shorthand for it as well and still be in the APA standard.



See the issue i am having is my MS is finished and on its last round of edits. The editors used the Chicago style of edit and i have not sourced my material unless it is in block quotes or needed for a specific purpose. So I might quote Gandalf from the hobbit, later from one chapter in FOTR, and next time from ROTK and so on. Can I site the book only for a source or is the chapter needed? 

Further I qoute other sources as well in this manner. But they are used sparingly and not to the extent of Tolkien's writings. Would I need to cite these as well? And if I did a biography could i just cite the book only?


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## pmmg

Chicago has a similar style of shorthand.

You'll have to pull up their guidelines but I found this: https://www.libs.uga.edu/ref/chicagostyle.pdf

_________
Use the full citation the first time you cite the work in your notes. For subsequent notes use the author’s last name only and shorten the title if it has more than four words. If the work has no identifiable author or editor, start the citation with the title.

1. Andrew Gelman, _Red State, Blue State, Rich State, Poor State_ (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2008), 144.

5. Gelman, _Red State,_ 160.
__________

You might use a citation machine to make it easier. There are a number of free ones online.

(And I swore I would never do citations again :~( )


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## Tolkien

pmmg said:


> Chicago has a similar style of shorthand.
> 
> You'll have to pull up their guidelines but I found this: https://www.libs.uga.edu/ref/chicagostyle.pdf
> 
> _________
> Use the full citation the first time you cite the work in your notes. For subsequent notes use the author’s last name only and shorten the title if it has more than four words. If the work has no identifiable author or editor, start the citation with the title.
> 
> 1. Andrew Gelman, _Red State, Blue State, Rich State, Poor State_ (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2008), 144.
> 
> 5. Gelman, _Red State,_ 160.
> __________
> 
> You might use a citation machine to make it easier. There are a number of free ones online.
> 
> (And I swore I would never do citations again :~( )



Thanks so much for all the help. Seem i should go back and cite everything proper. Damit.


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## Tolkien

pmmg said:


> Chicago has a similar style of shorthand.
> 
> You'll have to pull up their guidelines but I found this: https://www.libs.uga.edu/ref/chicagostyle.pdf
> 
> _________
> Use the full citation the first time you cite the work in your notes. For subsequent notes use the author’s last name only and shorten the title if it has more than four words. If the work has no identifiable author or editor, start the citation with the title.
> 
> 1. Andrew Gelman, _Red State, Blue State, Rich State, Poor State_ (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2008), 144.
> 
> 5. Gelman, _Red State,_ 160.
> __________
> 
> You might use a citation machine to make it easier. There are a number of free ones online.
> 
> (And I swore I would never do citations again :~( )




One last question and thanks once more for all of the help. Does the page number need to be included for fair use? That would take well.... a very impossible long time to track down the page numbers. Chapter, book, easy, page number after writing the entire 220 page ms with many quotes, holy Shi%


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## pmmg

Just sayin.... unless this is meant to be a true reference source material, I might look to fudge a bit on onerous citing.

But if you were a student in a class, I might have to say you need page numbers if you have them.


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## Tolkien

pmmg said:


> Just sayin.... unless this is meant to be a true reference source material, I might look to fudge a bit on onerous citing.
> 
> But if you were a student in a class, I might have to say you need page numbers if you have them.



I am only really doing it to prevent the chance of some form of violation on my part. I would rather not do one at all. To me citing LOTR one or twice in a block quote and later saying Gandalf said to treebeard ... is citing the material. People know the source.


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## pmmg

Well...give each qoute a number and then have one omnibus quote at the bottom like,


2,5,6,16,23,25,35,35 Gandalf....blah blah


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## psychotick

Hi,

Well here's an odd wrinkle on this - save that it's not about trademarked names just names. My latest Barton Villa book features the criminal organization - Golden Dawn It's a fiction book and it takes their already bad name and makes up a whole bunch of BS about them - the sort of stuff they might actually have done along with much of the rest of the far right. When I started writing it, they weren't going to have a major role in the book so I didn't care. But as their role grew it occurred to me - they could get upset. Now this isn't a trademark issue - it's a libel issue. And the test for defending yourself against libel is whether someone could not reasonably believe that what is said is true. Unfortunately in this case apart from the sci fi parts, someone could believe that GD did all these things.

My solution in the end was to make up a new name for them _ The Liberation Front. (Yes I let the terrorists win!) But my point is this. If you're using someone's name, trademarked or not, consider the simplest option - not using it.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Tolkien

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> Well here's an odd wrinkle on this - save that it's not about trademarked names just names. My latest Barton Villa book features the criminal organization - Golden Dawn It's a fiction book and it takes their already bad name and makes up a whole bunch of BS about them - the sort of stuff they might actually have done along with much of the rest of the far right. When I started writing it, they weren't going to have a major role in the book so I didn't care. But as their role grew it occurred to me - they could get upset. Now this isn't a trademark issue - it's a libel issue. And the test for defending yourself against libel is whether someone could not reasonably believe that what is said is true. Unfortunately in this case apart from the sci fi parts, someone could believe that GD did all these things.
> 
> My solution in the end was to make up a new name for them _ The Liberation Front. (Yes I let the terrorists win!) But my point is this. If you're using someone's name, trademarked or not, consider the simplest option - not using it.
> 
> Cheers, Greg.



I am not creating a new fiction in this case i am writing about both Tolkien and middle-earth in general. So I am not taking a character from him or a name without using Tolkien's own writings. So Gandalf said "you cannot pass" etc


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## Tolkien

pmmg said:


> Just sayin.... unless this is meant to be a true reference source material, I might look to fudge a bit on onerous citing.
> 
> But if you were a student in a class, I might have to say you need page numbers if you have them.



Just when you thought you had gotten rid of me...

Hopefully this will be the last question. Could I do something along the lines of "all quotes made by Tolkien characters derived from" and then list Tolkien's works I used. Than all quotes from Tolkien derived from and then list the sources. Would that pass?


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## pmmg

Found this:

LibGuides: Chicago Style Guide, for 17th Edition: Ibid.

I think, in part, this depends a bit on who you expect the audience to be. If its for academia, you need to cite a lot. If its not, I suspect you can take more liberties. If your just trying to avoid getting sued, I am not sure it even has to be formal.


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## Devor

Tolkien said:


> Could I do something along the lines of "all quotes made by Tolkien characters derived from" and then list Tolkien's works I used. Than all quotes from Tolkien derived from and then list the sources. Would that pass?



So if it were me, I would do:

The quotes on pages 32, 47 and 73 come from _Fellowship of the Ring_, by JRR Tolkein, published....
The quotes on pages 12, 39, and the first quote on page 82 come from The Two Towers, by JRR Tolkein, published....
The quotes on pages 17, 21, and the second quote page 82 .....

Followed by a statement that reads something like:  All credit for Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf, LOTR, Two Towers, and anything else of Middle Earth goes to Tolkein.

Just like that.  The page numbers in the Fellowship don't matter anywhere near as much as identifying where the quote is in your own book and making sure that it is clearly attributed to the correct author and work.


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## Tolkien

Devor said:


> So if it were me, I would do:
> 
> The quotes on pages 32, 47 and 73 come from _Fellowship of the Ring_, by JRR Tolkein, published....
> The quotes on pages 12, 39, and the first quote on page 82 come from The Two Towers, by JRR Tolkein, published....
> The quotes on pages 17, 21, and the second quote page 82 .....
> 
> Followed by a statement that reads something like:  All credit for Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf, LOTR, Two Towers, and anything else of Middle Earth goes to Tolkein.
> 
> Just like that.  The page numbers in the Fellowship don't matter anywhere near as much as identifying where the quote is in your own book and making sure that it is clearly attributed to the correct author and work.



Perfecto.


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## Tolkien

Question on citing. Say I have the next 3 quotes that all come from the same source. Can I give a citation for the first use but not the next two and keep that pattern of citation. Then explain in the back of the book that contains the sources that I used this method. Or must I use *Ibid each time?*


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## pmmg

The format would be like:

"Some quote" (TOLKIEN, J. R. R. (2020). _Fellowship of the ring_. HARPERCOLLINS PUBLISHERS.) 

"Some quote 2" (Tolkien, 2020)

"Some quote 3" (Tolkien, 2020)


Maybe you could try quoting it in the format Wikipedia uses.

"Some quote" [1]
"Some quote 2" [2]
"some quote 3" [3]


[1], [2], [3]  TOLKIEN, J. R. R. (2020). _Fellowship of the ring_. HARPERCOLLINS PUBLISHERS.


Again, unless this is a academic work, I'd not sweat so much dotting all the T's and crossing the I's.


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## pmmg

Ya know....

If you quote it at all, I doubt you will be before a judge explaining your copyright infringement because you did not use Chicago style correctly. Your college professor might not like that the style is wrong, but If its not for academia, a style like wiki ought to be sufficient.


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## Steerpike

Attribution isn’t really relevant to copyright infringement per se.


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