# Free will? Eeh!



## At Dusk I Reign (May 3, 2011)

Ahh, another day, another thread: like a monk with an aversion to washing powder, I seem to have developed a nasty habit. Not to worry, though – I'll try to keep things brief; some of you have homes to go to, I realise (and those who don't probably have dungeons to clean while your Dark Lord flirts with strangers through his magic mirror).

Anyway, let us proceed with gusto (not gussets – that's a whole different website). Pull up a chair if you can find one. If not, stand at the back (phones off). I won't keep you long, and if I do you have my permission to lob a piece of furniture at my head. Can't promise not to duck, though!

My story begins, as these things occasionally do, with a conversation. With an actual person, too – my days of talking to the TV are long gone. 

This guy isn't a friend by any means (and yes, I do have some. Not very many, admittedly, but then again there are few who'll willingly get close to a pasty-faced man in a fedora – they expect lengthy lectures on rococo  furniture, I suspect). Let's call him an acquaintance, one of those people it's socially awkward to ignore but sadly illegal to slap in the face with a rolled-up newspaper. 

He's writing a novel (yes, I know, buy a ticket and get in line) and he seemed to know that I was a scribbler myself, though I'm not sure how as I don't think my infrequent conversations with him have ever strayed very far from what nice/horrible/indifferent weather we seem to be having for the time of year. My better half may well be culpable in this regard. I shall have words with her, though I'm sure they'll be gleefully ignored as per usual. 

Anyway, this sorry individual was having difficulties, difficulties with his characters. They weren't doing what they were supposed to do, what he wanted them to do, and he wondered if I'd ever encountered the same problem.

I explained (with admirable restraint I thought) that I hadn't. I even managed to keep my tone neutral, never once betraying the fact that I thought he should take a very long vacation, far away from any sudden movements or loud noises.

I think he's several garibaldis short of a picnic, you see? I'm not entirely unsympathetic, I can understand how in the white heat of creation the imagination can break free and go for a gallop, but I really don't see how a character can be seen to have developed free will.

I know Mister Man (as he shall henceforth be known) isn't alone. I've read interviews with authors who speak of their creations as if they are real people, who even claim that said creations do their own thing in a story, impervious to whatever input the author might profer.

This can't be right, surely? I'm all for well-rounded characters, for allowing them to behave and react in ways which suit the personality they've been given. But they're not real. They do what the author demands, not the other way around.

Am I alone in my view? Is it old-fashioned to believe that characters should be subservient to plot (and hence the author)? Have I missed a trick? Do I lack commitment? Are there too many questions in this paragraph?

So, fellow scribes, what's the story? What works for you?


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## Mythos (May 3, 2011)

I think that when someone says that their characters won't let them do something it's just their subconscious telling them that the character would not act like that in the boundaries it has been given. 

In anything I've written, which isn't too much, the characters always work with me. Of course that may be because I am, or was, to inexperienced to tell when I was developing the characters wrong.


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## Telcontar (May 3, 2011)

TOO MANY QUESTIONS!

So I'll just deal with the main theme. 

I've always found that particular line - "My characters have minds of their own" - to be a load of crap. Characters are inventions of their author unless they are plagiarizing or basing everything off of outside information. Their actions are also the decision of the author.

What _does_ happen, in my experience, is that while you may have been writing for a time with a certain trait in mind for a character, the decisions you've made for them up until a certain point don't actually illustrate this trait. Or perhaps you've had a certain action in mind for the character to undertake in the future of the story - but when you get to the point of actually writing it, you realize that action would not be in keeping with the character you've developed.

In short, the author may surprise _themself._ The whimsical expression of 'giving characters control of their own destinies' no doubt started off amusing - but I find it's been carried too far and too literally by some. In the end, it is the author making the decisions. They just do it through a filter of what they believe their character is like.


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## Ophiucha (May 3, 2011)

As the others have said, any whims the 'character' comes up with are your brain thinking ahead of your fingers. It may be worthwhile to think about what comes of that, of course. There must be a reason it popped into your head, and I'd write a note somewhere to consider that possibility, but I by no means would allow that to dictate the story to be told. If I find that I have written the character poorly, so that it seems illogical for them to do what they need to, I won't say that the character "took over", I will say "I need to go back and rewrite that so we can move on with the story".

Besides which, my characters are so painstakingly crafted to serve specific functions in the story that it is hard to see them as much more than tools. Albeit squishy, lovable ones. Like a pincushion. That, fittingly, I would stab repeatedly.


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## Calash (May 3, 2011)

It is an interesting insight into differences in the creative process.

I can actually relate, at least to a point, with Mister Man and his issues.  I have several, most of them the protagonists, who I would consider to have a "mind of their own" in some fashion.  When working on the details of a story I let my imagination take over to see how things will react together.  

I knew a guy who was even worse than me.  He would get so into it that his typing and speech would actually change depending on the character he was writing for.  At the time it was Role-Play on a MMO but he would convert the output into stories.

Of course at the end of the day it is still your mind and your story.  I don't think I have ever had a situation where a story could not be written because of the 'free will' of a character.  I have has situations where I can not accurately portray the motivations for a scenario based on how I know they would react. 

ie:  Why would he keep the hero alive?  My main villain is smarter than that and, in my mind, would just kill him and be done with the threat in chapter 3.


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## GameMasterNick (May 3, 2011)

If your characters won't do what you, the writer, need them to do then you're using the wrong character.  Never try to force this as readers instinctively recoil when heroes are "railroaded."  Instead find someone who, with all their flaws, will accomplish what the story requires.  If they won't do what the "world" needs them to do... then they're probably deeper than most in fantasy fiction.  Flawed "Heroes" like Caiphas Cain can still run away while saving the day and allowing a story many times more enjoyable than Hero Discovers Evil, Hero Attacks Evil, Hero Fails, Hero Tries Again, Hero Prevails.


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## Chilari (May 3, 2011)

I've never had a situation which I would describe as characters refusing to do what I want them to. They don't have agency. I have had situations where a scene won't work because I know the character wouldn't act in that way, but that doesn't mean they have a will of their own. Frustrating as it is when it happens, though, I count it as a success that I have such a clear picture of how the character would or would not act. And then I find another path to reach the same point ahead. That has, occasionally, resulted in the death of a character I had planned to keep alive a little longer, but such is life. I find another way around.

In fact, to continue using the metaphor of a path, it's like I've gone off on a walk to get to the top of a hill; I've looked at the map and drawn my route on, and it all goes fine for a while and I can see the hill in front of me. But then I find a river that wasn't on the map, or a field with bulls in I'm too scared to go through, and so I find another path around it. But then I end up in a forest and I can't even see the hill any more, and come across a ravine or a "DANGER: no entry. Logging ahead" sign and so I find another path. Maybe I backtrack a little. Then I find a path and it's going up and it's a little tricky to climb in places but it's not too bad, but then I break out of the trees and see I'm half way up a different hill entirely. But I've come this far and it's a fairly easy path, if somewhat tiring, so I keep going, and when I get to the top I can see the other hill I was aiming for, but this one is bigger and has a nicer view, and I feel better for the effort of climbing it.

That's what my writing process is basically like.

Don't ask me to come down. Descents are a problem for me. I'm not good with down, as a rule. Ladder too. I'm good climbing things, not so good descending. Like certain cats.


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## Donny Bruso (May 4, 2011)

For the most part my characters are very subservient to my wishes, and do exactly as they are told. I have never had a situation where I could not write a scene because of the characters. I have had, however, scenes where in the midst of writing it, an idea pops up in my head that instantly feels ten time more appropriate for the character than what I had planned, and forces a re-write of some or all of the scene, simply because that idea is truer to the character. I wouldn't say they have minds of their own, but sometimes they hand me better ideas on how to make them suffer.


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## At Dusk I Reign (May 4, 2011)

Well, we all seem to be on the same page here, dog-eared and soggy though it is. A tiny part of me wondered if perhaps I wasn't quite passionate enough about the craft; thankfully, it was never insistent enough to dissuade me from the notion that writers who talk about their characters living their own lives are either pretentious gits or have failed to plot tightly enough.


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## Calash (May 4, 2011)

The way I see it artists, and in this case writers, stimulate their creativity in different ways.  Some meditate, some fantasize, some write outlines and structures that would seem to fit better in technical manuals.  For some it is music, for other art.  

Is their really a wrong way to write?


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## At Dusk I Reign (May 4, 2011)

Calash said:


> The way I see it artists, and in this case writers, stimulate their creativity in different ways.


 Regarding a fictional character as feral and somehow beyond the ability of its creator to control doesn't strike me as creative, it just makes me think the author needs professional help.



Calash said:


> Is their really a wrong way to write?


I suppose it depends on what one is aiming for. If somebody's writing for their own amusement then they're free do whatever tickles them and have my wholehearted support. If they expect the great unwashed to part with hard cash, however, there are definitely rules to be heeded, if not always slavishly followed.


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## Amanita (May 4, 2011)

Oh, reading this thread title I've already started forming a post about the importance of free in my story. Free will versus blaming everything on outside circumstances or your magic is an important theme there, but that obviously isn't the question here. 

I remember a similar discussion from the NaNo-forums and it went quite out of hand if I remember correctly. 
I don't exactly remember what I've written there, so don't be surprised if it was something different, my opinions sometimes change over time.
I feel that I'm somewhere in the middle. Before writing a scene down, I imagine it in my mind, and sometimes my mind runs away with me and I end up with a completely different outcome. If I like that, I'll keep it, if not, I'll try it again. Sometimes, this includes characters doing something completely different from what I've previously intended for them but I don't feel about it as if the characters had a free will. It's more about the sequence of events leading up to different consequences. 

At the moment, my main character is gliding away from me a bit. Lenima used to be a good and innocent young woman who felt guilty for disappointing her people and even for aggressive thoughts or dreams, rejected by the others for no reason she could be blamed for in any way. 
But know well, there's ambition, there's anger about the others ignorance instead of acceptance for their position and a certain aggressive strike that doesn't really suit the role that was meant for her anymore.
I wouldn't call this my character's free will, I rather think that it has to do with the fact that I'm not really satisfied with the "innocent person is rejected by people who don't understand"-cliche anymore which I used in the beginning. In some ways this new approach is actually more consistant with the rest of the story in others it poses problems. 

Now I have to try and balance this in some way, the city-leaving question is linked to this as well. 

While talking to like-minded people it would be quite possible that I'd say something along the lines of "my main character doesn't want to be a good and virtous girl anymore" as well.  
And I don't think everyone who says something like this for fun needs professional help. If they really believe that their characters have a life of their own, it's a different matter...


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## Calash (May 4, 2011)

At Dusk I Reign said:


> I suppose it depends on what one is aiming for. If somebody's writing for their own amusement then they're free do whatever tickles them and have my wholehearted support. If they expect the great unwashed to part with hard cash, however, there are definitely rules to be heeded, if not always slavishly followed.



When speaking of pen to paper you have rules that need to be followed, though can be bent at times.  Pages, paragraphs, spelling, grammar, chapters.  in this I agree with you that the basic rules need to be followed.

However if we are talking the process to create I have to disagree.  Does it matter that I get my ideas from holding my breath under water for 10 minutes, and formulate the plot line while gorging myself on wet bread?  Extreme and totally untrue examples to be sure but they are to portray the point, being that the our  minds work differently.  Saying that Mister Man needs professional help just because his version of writers block is more personal than yours is a bit much IMHO.


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## At Dusk I Reign (May 4, 2011)

Calash said:


> Saying that Mister Man needs professional help just because his version of writers block is more personal than yours is a bit much IMHO.


He never mentioned having writer's block, and I don't believe 'errant' characters are a version of that. Had he said he was devoid of inspiration my response would probably have been more sympathetic. Anyway, my comment about professional help wasn't aimed at him but at those published writers who spout this rubbish in the press in order to prove how creative they are. It's nonsense, pure and simple.


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## Hioni (May 4, 2011)

I might as well go ahead and put my word in, I can speak for several younger writers, mostly Nanoians, who say their characters have free will. It's obvious they don't really, but it's rather fun to try to let go of reality once in a while and just let the characters decide where to go. You built them up and gave them their values, a fun thing we used to do was to pit our characters against each others in debates in a chatroom. Roleplay a bit with them, sometimes you learn more about you're own characters as your mind comes up with things out of the blue, little quirks that make them a little more realistic. Saying they have Free-Will I think is just allowing whoever it is to feel less lonely and have more fun~!

As for those who probably need mental help... I could probably classify as one of them, I was an only child, and was bad about imaginary friends. As an young adult I STILL have troubles with that, and instead of actual Imaginary Friends, My mind has turned itself in a mixed version of the Memory Wearhouse from Steven Kings _DreamCatcher_ and the Glass House from Thirteen Ghosts. Usually I imagine them in there room out of sight and out of mind until I want to discuss them... I'm a visual person, so Instead of their personality and history profiles just being thoughts in my head, the character is pretty much just... there. In my nice room full of bookshelves and poofey armchairs, and if I can't remember something I can ask them. It's kinda dumb, but it helps me. Another issue is during regular non-writing moments of my own life, I'll be watching TV with friends or cooking or something and while another person would thing, "Oh, soandso would think this is just stupid..." to something on TV, it's like I can actually see the character in my minds eye rolling his eyes at it, saying some snide remark or something, and I'll bust out laughing... When not around other people, It leads to giggling and talking to my characters, which is talking to myself... Roleplaying with Imaginary characters in ones head can't be healthy.... >__> 
I know it's not like they have free will, anything they know I know, I just use them as links to subconscious information on the characters. I'm still in control and can steer them whichever direction I want them to go in. They might like it, but I'll just over-ride their programming temporarily till they get used to it and it fits with them again in my head. I'm just a bit more visual I guess.

-Speaking of, The other day I was on one of my old plots that I'd abandoned, I was poking through my Characters trying to figure out where to go with it, and then Sofion kept bugging me silently till I mentally glared at him. I learned three things; one, he can be an absolute ass when withholding information, my subconscious should be reigned in every now and then, and he had a sister who was a manipulative seducer and had her own agenda in which she planned on taking the seat of power to the Demonic Kingdoms from underneath Sofions foot. Out of the blue I had a whole new character to develop and path to follow.


Just... thought I'd give you all something to chew on... Since most people here are Rational, orderly minded folk it seems~


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## Calash (May 4, 2011)

At Dusk I Reign said:


> He never mentioned having writer's block, and I don't believe 'errant' characters are a version of that. Had he said he was devoid of inspiration my response would probably have been more sympathetic. Anyway, my comment about professional help wasn't aimed at him but at those published writers who spout this rubbish in the press in order to prove how creative they are. It's nonsense, pure and simple.



Fair enough.  We do have a point of disagreement on the pure definition of writers block but I will put that as a difference in perspective.

On the press topic I agree completely.  I have seen a few interviews that made me just shake my head and sigh.  Even if it is 100% truth, and I highly doubt it is many cases, it proves nothing about how creative a person is.


BTW: Great topic!  Really enjoying the different opinions we are seeing.


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## At Dusk I Reign (May 5, 2011)

Hioni said:


> As for those who probably need mental help... I could probably classify as one of them


From what you've written I doubt it; you recognise that your characters have no free will of their own. The worst you could be accused of is having a vivid imagination. Don't all writers?



Calash said:


> Fair enough.  We do have a point of disagreement on the pure definition of writers block but I will put that as a difference in perspective.


Ah, good ol' writers block - there's a topic and a half. You should start a thread on it - it'll probably run until the stars burn out.


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## Digital_Fey (May 6, 2011)

Hioni said:
			
		

> It leads to giggling and talking to my characters, which is talking to myself... Roleplaying with Imaginary characters in ones head can't be healthy.... >__>



Maybe not, but it can be lots of fun 

Allowing a character free reign is pretty much the same as allowing your subconscious to wander around outside the nicely painted walls that your conscious has so carefully built. Stopping in the middle of a writing session and asking your MC 'Hey...are you happy with how this is going?' is maybe not something you should do out loud, but it can be very useful for getting new insight into what you're actually creating.

Do my characters frustrate me? Do they surprise me? Hell, yes. Perhaps some authors ham it up in order to seem more creative and to get sympathy - oh, poor me, my characters are being so _difficult_ >.> However, I personally believe that it's possible for a creation to take on a semi-life of its own. That doesn't mean you don't control it, or that you see it as something totally separate from yourself. I know a keen writer and roleplayer whose characters all have something of her lively personality in them - a spark that distinguishes them as _her_ creations - and yet they still sometimes surprise her with their actions. 

Basically, if a character of mine isn't real enough to answer my questions, sulk at me, or surprise me, then I'd rather scrap them.


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