# Is any one interested in doing a "book club"?



## Heliotrope (Apr 6, 2016)

I've been wanting to post this for some time. Is anyone interested in doing a book club? 

I was thinking it would be nice to get together (here, obviously) and read some truly classic fantasy, or popular fantasy or whatever, and discuss the author's various strategies for characterization, plot, world building, tension etc and how they relate to writing our own stories? 

It would be nice to explore a range of sub genres and authors that we may not otherwise try. 

Would anyone be interested in that? We could do a new book every month or two with discussion and questions on a weekly basis? 

Thank this post if you are interested


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## Devor (Apr 6, 2016)

I think that's a great idea, although it's one that we've tried to get going once or twice before.

To me, when I pick up a book nowadays, I do so wondering what I can learn from it as a writer.  I think it would be cool to pick out books and discuss them based on what we hope to learn from them.


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## Heliotrope (Apr 6, 2016)

Thanks Devor, I do exactly the same, and I think breaking out and reading some different stuff, while at the same time having the opportunity to discuss it with others can be a very valuable learning experience.


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## skip.knox (Apr 6, 2016)

I'm willing to try. I have a bad track record for reading clubs. Somehow, even though I'm retired, I find myself busier than ever, and it's difficult for me not to regard reading as time away from writing.

But I do like the angle of reading a book with a writer's eye, and discussing it from that perspective.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 7, 2016)

If it weren't for the last book club, I would never have read Prince of Thorns, so I think it's a great idea, one that'll introduce to folks some books they've never read. Unfortunately, I understand that committing to reading with a group isn't for me, since I had a hard time keeping up last time we did this. But still, there were things I liked about the structure of the last book club, so I'd encourage you, Heliotrope, to read our old posts from it? We voted on what to read, and I think it was categorized in some way. Anyways, it was organized really nicely, it was me that couldn't keep up.  Best wishes!


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## spectre (Apr 7, 2016)

I'm interested, been gone from the forums for a while nice post to walk into.

Sent from my HTC Desire 626s using Tapatalk


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## Devor (Apr 8, 2016)

I think it would be kind of cool to make a specific list of books to read that each help us focus on one thing as a writer, like good dialogue or humor or themes.  Maybe we could vote on a topic, or pick one of three books chosen for the topic, but I think having that kind of direction and structure would make the project more worthwhile.  Give the group a name.  Anything to look like we have a concrete plan will help get people on board.

I also think you could ask Black Dragon about announcing it on the home page - maybe you could write an article on why this is such a good idea.  It would drum up interest and maybe draw new people to the community.


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## Heliotrope (Apr 8, 2016)

Yep. That was my plan anyway (the structure). Thanks for chiming in. Ok, I will throw together a write up and proposal for Black Dragon re: how writing and reading are interconnected and how reading to beings writer is as essential as eating to being a chef....

I'll do that tonight...


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## Heliotrope (Apr 8, 2016)

If anyone has any suggestions or past experiences they want to share as I build this group, I would love to hear them!


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## Heliotrope (Apr 8, 2016)

Ok, I have some time now to think about this stuff, so I figured I'd post some thought in case anyone had feedback. 

I was wondering your thoughts on type of books covered. Having a Masters in English and having taught lit for the past ten years I see the benefit in covering a vast spectrum of genres and a variety of writing styles, however, I'm thinking that because this is a fantasy writers forum that most people are more interested in the fantasy side of things? Or do you think that people would be interested in studying sci-fi, speculative fiction, dystopian fiction, or supernatural fiction as well, as long as they are examples of whatever particular topic we have chosen? 

I was hoping to structure the reading group in a similar way that I structure my English classes (but without the essays and homework, obviously. This would be more just round table discussion.) when I teach writing I usually focus on 5 key traits: 

Ideas/theme: specifically use of symbolism, metaphor, how characterization and setting and plot feed into supporting the ideas/theme in order to create an emotional response in the reader. For this series I might choose something with a more literary feel:

- The Book Of The New Sun Gene Wolfe
- Lyonesse Jack Vance
- American Gods Neil Gaiman


Organization: looking at a variety of structures (3 act, heroes journey, pantsing vs. Plotting) and how authors use a variety of strategies to organize their chapters or ideas for greatest effect. 

Voice: looking at writer voice, narrative voice or POV and how the personality, opinions, and judgements behind the writing can make it more real and engaging. When writers choose to deep POV and when they choose to remain omniscient and why. 

Conventions: looking at peices that would be considered non-conventional, either in regards to structure, or POV, or setting. 

Word Choice: looking at a richly descriptive style vs. A sparse modern style. 

Within these categories we would discuss methods of character development, dialogue, setting and world building, use of humour and tragedy and the balance between each. The author's use of scene/sequel (if used) etc as well as whatever topics happen to be addressed in conversation. 

Thoughts on this set up? Suggestions for books that you think should be covered?


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## Heliotrope (Apr 8, 2016)

Mock up: 

*Anatomy of Fiction: A Reading Group for Writers*

_ Reading does not make you a writer. 

That's an odd piece of advice, isn't it? "All you need to do is read and write to be a writer." You don't learn to write through reading anymore than you learn carpentry by sitting in a chair. You learn to write by writing. And, when you do read something, you learn by dissecting it - what is the author doing? How are the characters and plot drawn together? You must read critically - That is the key._

- Chuck Wendig

Welcome to Anatomy of Fiction, a reading group specifically for writers. Here at AOF we don't just read great books, we dissect them with more fervour than the scalpel happy Goth kid dissected his foetal pig in twelfth grade Biology. 

Almost every great author doles out the same tired advice to novice writers: 

"If you don't have the time to read, you don't have the time to write." 
     - Stephen King 

But sometimes simply reading is not enough. In order to learn to write from reading we need to learn to read with the critical eye of the writer. It is not enough to know simply what an author is doing in a text, we need to know why and how he is doing it. 

Reading groups can add a whole new dimension to your writing process. By branching out and reading a variety of genres, authors and mediums you can be inspired to solves problems in your own writing in ways you may have never thought possible. 

The Anatomy of Fiction reading group is an informal, non-committal reading group. You choose what months you want to participate. 

Each month we will choose a book to study and discuss using the microscopic lenses of these five categories: 
Ideas/theme: specifically use of symbolism, metaphor, how characterization and setting and plot feed into supporting the ideas/theme in order to create an emotional response in the reader. 


 Organization: looking at a variety of structures (3 act, heroes journey, pantsing vs. Plotting) and how authors use a variety of strategies to organize their chapters or ideas for greatest effect. 

 Voice: looking at writer voice, narrative voice or POV and how the personality, opinions, and judgements behind the writing can make it more real and engaging. When writers choose to deep POV and when they choose to remain omniscient and why. 

 Conventions: looking at peices that would be considered non-conventional, either in regards to structure, or POV, or setting.

Word Choice: looking at a richly descriptive style vs. A sparse modern style.

Within these categories we would discuss methods of character development, dialogue, setting and world building, use of humour and tragedy and the balance between each. The author's use of scene/sequel (if used), common genre tropes, etc as well as whatever topics happen to be addressed in conversation.

If you feel that dissecting, analyzing and discussing fiction with a group of peers in an informal, round table setting is just what you need to branch out and take that next step in your own writing, then grab a lab coat and a scalpel and get ready to get messy!


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## Devor (Apr 9, 2016)

So, the list I usually consider is:  Creativity, Structure, Voice and Theme.  That's a list I came up with trying to figure out article topics for the Article Team here.  Yours is pretty similar, but I'm not sure I understand why Word Choice is separate from Voice.  I also find something about the word "conventions" a little off-putting.

We're entering into the Spring right now, so the timing might not be right for starting a Book Club.  People are usually a little less active here during the warmer months.  But maybe putting together even three or four people might be enough if they're the right people to get it started with.

In my opinion, book selection is everything.  For instance I made a list at the start of the year of authors I wanted to read next, and at the top was Terry Pratchett, Neil Gaiman and Steven King, each to focus on different things.  But it was basically, "I'm trying to be a fantasy writer.  Where's the list of must-reads that I need to be looking at?  Where's the reading list for fantasy 101?"  I'm not trying to say this what you should do.  There's a lot of people who might want to join a book club who have already read through the "Fantasy 101" and might not be interested in that.  But the book list is what will define the club and determine who will want to join.  Pick it with purpose.

Also, I wouldn't be so quick to cut the homework.  Giving people a little to do is often what encourages people to do anything.  For instance, if you have four people in the club, asking each person to write a paragraph or two about either creativity, theme, structure, or voice might be a good way to encourage involvement and give the discussion a little momentum.

And I couldn't even begin to talk about how popular "book reviews from a writer's perspective" would be on the MS home page.  It could be something to work towards.


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## Heliotrope (Apr 9, 2016)

Yep, I was thinking fantasy 101 as well, like the fantasy "must reads" and Giants for sure. Thats more what I would want to look at as well, for exactly the same reason as you. I did the same thing "ok, I want to write fantasy, what do I need to study? The Hobbit, Dune, Once and Future King, Mists of Avalon, American Gods, the list is crazy!" 

I googled "best all time fantasy" and got a pretty decent list, so that is where j would prefer to start...


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## Devor (Apr 9, 2016)

These are the two lists I found a while ago that look solid to me:

Reddit's Top Fantasy Reads of All Time - How many have you read?
100 of the Best Fantasy Authors From the Past Century - How Many of these Fantasy Authors Have You Read?

I generally assume that people have come here with Lord of the Rings, A Song of Ice and Fire, and Harry Potter already under their belt.


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## Heliotrope (Apr 10, 2016)

Exactly, and probably Narnia too. 

Ok, I will keeping working at this and have a good draft by Monday.


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## Ireth (Apr 10, 2016)

Devor said:


> I generally assume that people have come here with Lord of the Rings, A Song of Ice and Fire, and Harry Potter already under their belt.



I couldn't get far into ASoIaF, personally. I think I made it to where Bran was thrown out the window before deciding this wasn't the series for me. Haven't seen the show either. LOTR, HP and Narnia, however, I will love forever.


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## Devor (Apr 10, 2016)

Ireth said:


> I couldn't get far into ASoIaF, personally. I think I made it to where Bran was thrown out the window before deciding this wasn't the series for me. Haven't seen the show either. LOTR, HP and Narnia, however, I will love forever.



Hey, to each their own. It can be a tough book for sure.  But I mean, at this point you've still decided not to read it - I don't think a book club would change that, would it?

Also, sometimes it helps to ground a conversation with an example, and the "big three" are the go-tos that enough people are familiar with.  It just helps to assume that people are at least familiar with them.


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## FifthView (Apr 10, 2016)

I like the idea of a reading group, because I know that having that impetus to read more, and read more widely, could be really great for me generally.  (I might be less likely to just switch on the t.v. and watch another episode of _Inspector Lewis_ on Amazon Prime...)

But I'm something of a commitment-phobe, not a joiner, and (especially) don't like structured environments.  I'll leave to your imagination how this negatively effects my writing, not to mention so much else.

So joining in reading and discussing a book would be great fun, but...Well, as silly as this may sound, I'm an Aquarius, and one of the descriptions is something like, "Often ignores anything that doesn't interest him."  Although I'd love to make note of, and discuss, whatever feature of a book most grabs my attention, and might love joining in a conversation that highlights something I haven't noticed but that grabs my attention when pointed out to me, I might have comparatively little interest in 3 of the 5 *Areas of Exploration* for any given book.  One obsesses over the tea leaves one finds most intriguing...So I might not be the best addition to such a group!


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## Heliotrope (Apr 10, 2016)

But you would be! Even if you only commented on one aspect it would still be interesting and valuable.


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## skip.knox (Apr 11, 2016)

How about any of the following:

Robert E Howard
Tanith Lee
Thomas Burnett Swann
Jack Vance
Peter Beagle
Michael Moorcock
Piers Anthony
Diana Wynne Jones
Marion Zimmer Bradley
Neil Gaiman

???


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## Ireth (Apr 11, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> How about any of the following:



Robert E Howard - never read
Tanith Lee - never read, but recently got some of her stories (or I might be mixing her up with Tanya Huff?)
Thomas Burnett Swann - nope
Jack Vance - nope
Peter Beagle - yes!
Michael Moorcock - nope
Piers Anthony - yes!
Diana Wynne Jones - yes, a couple
Marion Zimmer Bradley - nope
Neil Gaiman - yes!


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## Mythopoet (Apr 11, 2016)

I would be interested in joining if the group is reading/discussing a book I'm interested in reading/discussing. 

Feel free to look over my Modern Fantasy Reading List for ideas.


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## Chessie (Apr 11, 2016)

No thanks on Neil Gaiman but I'll keep an eye on this thread just in case something I fancy pops up. I always like discussing a good book. These are only fantasy or sci fi, right? I have a few ideas if anyone is interested.


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## Devor (Apr 19, 2016)

I think the model for a good book club would be about three committed organizers and it's fine if the rest of the group comes and goes based on the book that month.  The challenge is to find the right organizers and find a good way to keep the club in everyone's mind.  For instance, the organizers could link to the club in their signatures when they post, and update a thread in the Announcements forum with the next month's book.

(( edit ))

. . . yaddah, blah, whatev's, bump.


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## skip.knox (Apr 20, 2016)

This happens a lot, and not just here. Someone comes up with a good idea. Everyone says yeah that's a great idea. Then stands around waiting for the great idea to happen. I'm still game, at least if the book comes from my own preferences.


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## Heliotrope (Apr 20, 2016)

Thanks skip  I was sort of waiting to see if anyone else would chime in before going for the gusto  

Ok... So where do I post an official write up? Should we do it here? On the books forum?


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## Devor (Apr 20, 2016)

If you want to keep talking it out, or draft it a bit, post it here.  If you think you're solid and eager to get it started, post in the announcements forum.


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## skip.knox (Apr 21, 2016)

I would be interested especially in the following, for the following reasons

1. Robert E Howard
It could be Conan, but it could be almost any of his other fantasy works. The main criterion is: it must be a novel, not a short story. The benefit here is to study a master of purple prose, to study someone whose plots are very straightforward but who manages to work in a good bit of atmosphere along with it. It could generate some worthwhile discussion on what to avoid as much as what to imitate. 
   Secondary choices in the same spirit would be Tanith Lee, Michael Moorcock, or Fritz Leiber.

2. Anne McCaffrey
Dragonflight. This is classic fantasy with great story telling and the careful construction of a fantasy race (dragons). Another good candidate here, though with quite a different style, could be Lois McMaster Bujold.

3. Ursula Le Guin
Earthsea, of course. This one almost purely for the language, but her handling of magic is also worth a study. This one could be interesting because she mostly wrote science fiction.

4. Peter S. Beagle
The Last Unicorn, or the Folk of the Air. Both brilliant. In both cases, the language is strong and so is the world-building.

5. Richard Adams
Watership Down. I know ... bunnies. But it's still awfully good and it pretty much set the gold standard for writing animal-based fantasy adventures. Everyone else just imitates.

Those are ones I know, have read long ago, and which I think would re-pay close study from a writerly point of view. But I'm game for stuff I have not read. Candidates here would include Guy Gavriel Kay (Tigana), David Eddings (Belgariad), 

Finally, authors I've read and didn't much like, but am willing to re-visit, though it may involve heavy drinking: Patrick Rothfuss, Robin Hobb, Dan Simmons, Brandon Sanderson. I will not read any more R.A. Salvatore. Ever.

I'm picturing us looking at all aspects of a book, from word choice within sentences to overall plot.


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## skip.knox (Apr 21, 2016)

Oh, I guess I should add Scott Lynch to the list of "never read, but willing".


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## Devor (Dec 9, 2016)

Heliotrope - or anyone - are you still interested in doing this at all?  If so, I had an idea on how we could do it more effectively...

On goodreads, instead of book clubs, a lot of groups are doing "Reading Challenges," where people challenge each other to read certain books or a certain number of books.  You don't have to commit to discussing them when you join the group, just to reading.

I was thinking we could post regular reading challenges.  Three books, each time, with a theme, with the challenge being to read at least one of them.  The first book would be a top-100 well-known fantasy book, the second would be a lesser known fantasy novel, and the third would be off-genre. That way if you've read one of the books, you could pick one of the others to participate. The theme could be anything from "heavy themes," to "learning humor," to "best in urban fantasy," to "Neil Gaiman."

The thing is, we could pick books from a list like this one:

Reddit's Top Fantasy Reads of All Time - How many have you read?

After we read the book, and write about 300 words about the book and the theme, we could go here to the forums, or to a place on goodreads, or to a favorite reviewer, and invite them to recommend the other two books to match the theme.  We could take turns picking the book and writing the theme post, so the commitment wouldn't be heavy at all.

We could post it with the article team.  I bet it would do pretty well.

I need something to help me get better motivated to read, and read deliberately the things that will help me to be a better writer.  I'm sure I'm not the only one.  I think doing this would go a long way towards helping with that.


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## spectre (Dec 9, 2016)

I'd still do it.

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## Heliotrope (Dec 9, 2016)

Oh my gosh! I'm goi g to revisit this. I'll let the powers that be know that I'm planning to get this started then in the new year. If anyone wants to co-host with me, let me know. 

Also, book suggestions? It would be nice to look at a few different sub genres of fantasy?


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## Heliotrope (Dec 10, 2016)

Nevermind, I re-read the thread and saw a lot of book suggestions. 

Ok, I'm going to spear head this starting in January. I'll post the group in the Announcement page in the next few days. 

Ss group leader I'm thinking a book every two months? That should give everyone enough time to fit reading into their busy schedule as well as have time to join in discussions. 

Tentative Book Outline: 

January - February *The Way Of Kings * by Brandon Sanderson 

March - April *American Gods* by Neil Gaiman 

May - June *Johnathon Strange and Mr. Norrel* by Suzanna Clarke 

July - August *Wizards of Earthsea* by Ursula K. Le Guin 

September - October *The Blade Itself* by Joe Abercrombie 

Novemeber - December *Tigana* by Guy Gavriel Kay 

That should be a pretty comprehensive place to start, as, like Devor said, I think most people are coming with a background of LOTR, Hobbit, Narnia, ASOIAF, and Robert Jordan. 

If anyone wants to co-host, or have book thoughts, let me know.


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## Mytherea (Dec 11, 2016)

*raises hand* I'd be very much interested in a writing-focused book group (in my in-person one, they mostly read hard SF I don't understand and I'm the only writer, so when I go off on a tangent about characterization, they don't get it). I think two months is quite generous. Not just time to read the book but also time to analyze it.


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## Devor (Dec 11, 2016)

Heliotrope, I'd love to co-host.

I was suggesting in my last post that each time we could actually:

 - Recommend three books (for those who've already read one or read more than others)
 - One a well-known fantasy book, one a lesser known fantasy book, one off-genre (to branch out)
 - On a theme (this is what we can learn from these books)
 - As a "reading challenge" (to increase the reach, but we would still have a discussion thread)
 - That we could post to the article team (with information about why we recommend each book to make it article-worthy)

Is that something you'd be interested in, Helio?


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## Heliotrope (Dec 11, 2016)

Yes, thank you Devor! 

I've honestly just been throwing ideas out to see where they might land  so if you want to co-host and have ideas I'm all ears  

Those sound like great ideas. 

Ok, so I think I'm going to pm you so we can hash out the details so we can get something up and running in the next few days so people have time to get books and start reading by January.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Dec 11, 2016)

I'd participate, if a little intermittently...


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## Russ (Dec 11, 2016)

Sounds like an excellent idea.


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## Chessie (Dec 12, 2016)

Hm...

If we can participate per book then I'd like to join in. No thanks on Neil Gaiman & Guy Gavriel Kay. If it's cool to skip those, then I'm in.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Dec 19, 2016)

The only book on that list I've actually read is A Wizard of Earthsea.


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## ScorpionWoman (Mar 15, 2019)

I would love this, though ilI admit I'm not good at dedicated reading (mostly due to my small child). Being able to discuss and learn from others reading the same thing would provide a lot of insight that I would otherwise miss. Books play like movies for when thoroughly interested and I'm not great at the analyzing part.


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