# Is it good to let people read your plot idea?



## Darkfantasy (Dec 21, 2012)

I do like to do it because sometimes I find, what makes total sense to me doesn't to fresh eyes, and what I saw a possible or believable isn't. It helps me to see what are the strengths and weaknesses in my plot and characters, and what I'll need to work on.

But it's difficult to trust people, not on regular writing forums as much. But some people post their ideas on Wattpad for the world to see.

What do you think of Wattpad, too, I looked on there and thought the standard of work was quite low.


----------



## Wanara009 (Dec 21, 2012)

Personally, I only let a very select few see my plot idea (betareader, anyone who I ask for critiques, etc). Perhaps it's just my paranoia against their and plagiarist but I also think that putting your plot ideas online is like giving spoilers to your work.


----------



## CupofJoe (Dec 21, 2012)

I never let people read my plots. It has been a hard lesson learned. As soon as I tell the tale to someone else it disappears from my head and I can't write it. So after a year of evaporating stories I worked out what the problem was and stopped sharing. This has lead to some circular and obscure conversations with friends as I try to explore something but not use the actual words. They have been very patient with me...
Apart from the glorious MS I don't interact with other writers on-line.


----------



## ThinkerX (Dec 22, 2012)

Given ten different authors the same plot - even outlined point by point - and you will get ten different stories.  Likely radically differing stories for at least a few of them. 

The real work is in the execution.


----------



## MadMadys (Dec 22, 2012)

Thinker brought up one of the points to keep in mind.

In addition to that, people are often worried others will steal their ideas but I don't think of it as a real problem here.  First off, your idea probably isn't totally original.  Not saying we copy intentionally but with so many stories and movies and tv episodes and such out there, things will overlap.  You could post your plot and someone could yell and scream you stole their idea.

Also, there aren't many people out there that can write an entire story but the one thing holding them back is coming up with a halfway decent plot.  They aren't perusing forums looking to take someone's plot then make a million bucks of it.

So if you want to share, feel free.  People here never lack in ideas so I doubt anyone would steal anything from you.


----------



## Chilari (Dec 22, 2012)

I go through my plot with my fiance. He's very good at asking the right questions. I means that long before I start actually writing, the biggest plot holes can be dealt with. But I don't share my plots with others, generally. Partly because sharing them brings up expectations that I'll write it, and that often doesn't happen in the end.


----------



## Philip Overby (Dec 22, 2012)

ThinkerX said:


> Given ten different authors the same plot - even outlined point by point - and you will get ten different stories.  Likely radically differing stories for at least a few of them.
> 
> The real work is in the execution.



This has been mentioned in other threads and I believe it to be true.  However, if someone is trusting enough to share their plot ideas with someone, they are assuming said person isn't just going to take it and try to "make it their own."  That said, it's hard to control such circumstances because you can't copyright a plot idea.

So I ultimately think sharing ideas of your work is fine, but getting down to the brass tacks of details and such should be left to someone you trust or a beta reader.


----------



## Mountain Bard (Dec 23, 2012)

I generally only share my story ideas with a friend of mine.  We don't talk often anymore but I always felt that the discussions that we shared helped to motivate us to keep writing.  It was a good way of keeping my creative juices flowing.  I do agree w/ MadMadys about ideas never really being original.  Every story or idea will always have comparisions to other existing works in my opinion.


----------



## psychotick (Dec 23, 2012)

Hi,

I can't see why not. Plots are not books, they are not writing, and they generally aren't unique. You'd be hard pressed to find a plot that hasn't been done before. What makes a book unique is the writing. Not the plot but how you tell the story. How you describe the characters and events, how you capture the reader's imagination. That's the stuff you should probably only share with those you trust.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## Dreamhand (Dec 24, 2012)

psychotick said:


> Plots are not books, they are not writing, and they generally aren't unique.



Thank you, psychotick... you took the words right out of my mouth. 

Please understand I am COMPLETELY bias on this topic. The Roundtable Podcast is all about four people getting their heads together to make a story idea (read: plot) as tight and exciting and engaging as possible. Now, you may think that all those adjective are intended to reflect the _reader's_ engagement (i.e. the reader will think the story is exciting and engaging), but that's not the goal. The objective is to make the _writer_ excited about their story so they invest every shred of their creative mojo into creating their story.

Yes, the "work" is in the writing, and (as many writers will tell you) it's an endurance race. If you aren't passionate and committed to your story, then "the work" can become like a runner's wall and knock you out of the race. If the writer doesn't believe in their story, then it'll be an even greater challenge to get that first draft completed.

_Everybody_ has a different process and a different way of finding that passionate commitment. Some start with a decent idea and then use discovery writing to explore it, finding the excitement and commitment there.  Others need to be able to see the whole story laid out before them before that fire kicks in and they gotta get to the keyboard NOW! 

Darkfantasy, if you're not sure about your story, I can tell you that one way to work out those concerns is by discussing it with your peers. Personally, there's nothing more invigorating or exciting than exploring a story idea with other people, having them share their perspectives on the elements, offer up possibilities for character twists or world building elements. Through that by-play you'll discover things about your idea you never knew where there or possibilities of plot that you hadn't considered. It broadens and heightens your awareness of the story you want to tell... and you may discover a the story isn't one you WANT to tell (and that's valuable, too). Or there's a whole different angle to approach it from that makes more sense _to you!_

And that's the bottom line... it's your story to tell. The ideas of others are irrelevant UNLESS it sparks interest and excitement for you. Dialog and conversation is one way to discover those ideas and harvest that excitement as fuel for your own storytelling efforts.

[Shameless self-promotion]

We just had a GREAT episode of the Roundtable workshopping a story idea with the fabulous Michael Sullivan (author of the Riyria Revelations).  If you want to experience the excitement and value of discussing story ideas with others, I highly recommend it. Check out Workshop Episode 42 (Guest Host: Michael Sullivan)

[/Shameless self-promotion]


----------



## Reaver (Dec 27, 2012)

Dreamhand said:


> [Shameless self-promotion]
> 
> 
> [/Shameless self-promotion]




You know...we do have a forum for this.


----------



## Dreamhand (Dec 28, 2012)

Gadzooks!  I clearly need to re-acquaint myself with the diverse offerings of the Forums. 

Thanks, Reaver! I absolutely LOVE how the MS Community continues to grow and evolve (and I'll be making use of THIS evolution immediately!). Cheers!


----------



## Rullenzar (Dec 28, 2012)

I wouldn't worry too much about letting someone read your plots. The odds of both of you doing the same story or even coming to the same conclusion is like finding a needle in a haystack. If you have some writer buddies it may even help to stir some ideas for each other.


----------



## MAndreas (Dec 28, 2012)

The only reason I would say perhaps not to, would be if you loose your story once you tell it.  Some authors need to keep it inside to keep it alive.

But if you're not of that ilk- I say go for it!  However, be aware that folks will comment and critique- and if you listen to all of them you'll go mad .

(I think the "but they might steal it" idea has been done in the previous posts- but I agree- they may take your idea, but the book you make is unique to you.)


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Dec 28, 2012)

I don't talk about my stories to anyone while I'm writing them anymore. This decision has nothing to do with worry over having ideas or scenes stolen (ideas are cheap) but solely because I realized that I sound stark raving mad while trying to describe all the components of a very complex and convoluted scheme.

Even when talking to other writers I find it difficult to discuss these things verbally. How could I possibly discuss a plot or story, considering all of its intricacies & length, and do it any justice with spoken words? That's the other bit. I'm fairly certain it'll at least sound weak and lacking in speaking.


----------



## Jess A (Dec 29, 2012)

I prefer to keep my plots to myself when online. However, I have a lot of friends and co-workers to discuss plots with (offline). None of them is writing a book, and quite a few are willing to offer a very critical response which is what I need.

As T.Allen.Smith said above, it is hard to put plot into words. I feel like when I describe it sometimes, I can't express the entirety of the story and it comes out sounding lame or stupid. Sometimes it requires bringing out the brainstorm diagrams and the family trees/species/etc drawings! If they are interested in the first place.


----------



## pmmg (Dec 18, 2022)

Sorry, another zombie... But I have something to say.

I once shared a story I was editing with a friend, who liked it so much, they shared it with another (without asking), who also liked it so much, they quickly took my idea, and wrote a story based on it, and entered it into a contest before me.  Needless to say, I did not find that cool.

I did try to play it off like it was okay, and I could deal, but...never doing that again.

I dont like to talk about my scenes, characters, places, or any of it directly. Not till its published, or you are an editor or a beta-reader.

I also dont like to talk about them with friends and family for the reasons stated above. I just sound crazy or goofy to people who are not invested and have no real interest.

'Oh...so its like swords and wizard and stuff...'

'Actually, no...its not like that at all...but thanks for thinking it such.'

It takes too long to give the context, and if they want to know...I mean, I can print out a copy. I find that RL friends and family, and writer friends do not mix. And that's okay... Really. You dont have to read my story if its not your thing, we can be friends in other ways.

Writing is lonely. I am an introvert. I am well suited for lonely. When its ready, ill go for feedback, when its not...Its not a topic I am really open to.

Which is not specifically about plot (my plot is too complex for an elevator speech), but does seem to be what the conversation above is about.


----------



## A. E. Lowan (Dec 18, 2022)

Holy necro, Batman. I think this thread only predates me by about two months.

Now that I've got that out of my system, yes, by all means tell people your ideas. Ideas are literally a dime a dozen and meant to be shared. Orson Scott Card has a workshop called something like, "100 Story Ideas in an Hour," where he challenges writers to come up with, you guessed it, 100 story ideas in under an hour. It's a lot of fun. It also helps one to let go of some of their preciousness about their story ideas.

Ideas are just ideas.

Here's a story idea. A hero and a villain meet every second Thursday for 'enemies with benefits' sex and to hash out their complicated relationship. I just came up with it off a writing prompt, which is another author sharing their ideas. Knock yourselves out.

_"A small, but dedicated group comes together to show that they can make a positive difference in a world gone wrong. Found families, urban fantasy, polyamory, and a city on the edge of disaster being held together by an addicted wizard physician who was never meant to lead. Welcome to Seahaven_."

That's our logline, or our elevator pitch, should there be an elevator at hand. There's nothing to steal here, and this is the pitch of a working, growing series. Another good idea/pitch would be something like, _"A young wizard named Harry can talk to snakes, is descended from a line of powerful wizards, and is under constant surveillance by the wizard's ruling body."_

Which series was that for, again?

The point is no one can steal your ideas. They're glitter in the wind. Shiny, distracting, and they get into everything. And cheap. Let's not forget cheap. 100 ideas an hour is pretty darn cheap. How many did you come up with in the shower today? While driving? A story is a different matter. That's paper and blood and sweat. That's characters with voices. But ideas are too ephemeral to be more than a Muse's forgotten whisper; without you breathing life into it, an idea will die just as unnoticed as it lived.

So, don't sweat ideas. Sweat stories.


----------



## pmmg (Dec 19, 2022)

A. E. Lowan said:


> The point is no one can steal your ideas. They're glitter in the wind. Shiny, distracting, and they get into everything. And cheap. Let's not forget cheap. 100 ideas an hour is pretty darn cheap. How many did you come up with in the shower today? While driving? A story is a different matter. That's paper and blood and sweat. That's characters with voices. But ideas are too ephemeral to be more than a Muse's forgotten whisper; without you breathing life into it, an idea will die just as unnoticed as it lived.



That is one school of thought, and for many ideas, this may be true, but for some it isn't. Some Idea's are in fact different, and have one best chance to resonate. After which, they are spent, to use again is to reuse, and the impact wanes. 

I can come up with 100 ideas in an hour if I like, but occasionally 1 out of a 100 is worth keeping to myself. 

If Mrs. Rowling would have shared that idea with me, and I popped out a story about a wizard named harry who talks to snakes while she was writing hers...I bet she would not have liked that.


----------



## Prince of Spires (Dec 19, 2022)

pmmg said:


> That is one school of thought, and for many ideas, this may be true, but for some it isn't. Some Idea's are in fact different, and have one best chance to resonate. After which, they are spent, to use again is to reuse, and the impact wanes.
> 
> I can come up with 100 ideas in an hour if I like, but occasionally 1 out of a 100 is worth keeping to myself.
> 
> If Mrs. Rowling would have shared that idea with me, and I popped out a story about a wizard named harry who talks to snakes while she was writing hers...I bet she would not have liked that.


I disagree, and I firmly agree with A. E. Lowan . Ideas are nice and necessary, but in no way special. It's the execution of the idea that matters. As for the wizard named Harry story, what if she was actually referencing Harry Dresden of the Dresden files? Pretty much the same idea "orphan wizard boy in a hidden wizard world fights the evil bad guy."

We could take the exact same idea and end up with a very different story. In fact, it would be very difficult for us to end up with the same story even if we started with the same idea. If I take A.E. Lowan's idea for Fairy Rising she gave above and wrote a story based on that (and at some point I just might, since it's a wonderful idea  ), then I would end up with a very different story. I'm a different writer, with different ideas and experiences, different interests. No way I could write the same story. 

I keep a list of story ideas which pop up in my head. For every story I write, I end up with half a dozen ideas for other stories. I can't write all of them, and even if I could I'd just end up with even more ideas. The execution is the hard part. Even if you come up with 100 ideas in an hour, and 99 of them are terrible, then you still have 1 good to great idea. In 1 hour... To actually write that novel then takes anything from 50 to 500 hours of hard work. That's the hard work, not coming up with the idea.

Of course this doesn't mean that some ideas can't be special to a writer. With the 100 story ideas different ones will ring out to different writers. An idea which looks amazing to me might seem meh to you and vise versa.


----------



## pmmg (Dec 19, 2022)

Prince of Spires said:


> what if she was actually referencing Harry Dresden of the Dresden files?



What if a million things? What if, she told her idea, and someone took it, and put out a story with a similar boy, in a similar story, with similar ideas, and it caught on? I bet Mrs. Rowling she would care.

There are many ideas that were the first of their kind. And if you think you got one, you wont share. And many circumstances lead to an idea that can only hit once, and then it is spent. It would not be wise to let it out too early. But I wont stop you from sharing if you like.

The issues I have with the thinking above is the same as ever saying something is all or nothing. That should be a red flag in any position. Maybe it is true for 999 out of a 1000, or 999,999 out of 1 Million, but for that 1, I cannot subscribe to the above. I can only mostly subscribe to it.

When the Idea is mine, and I am not seeing it anywhere else, and I intend to use it, I am not sharing.


----------



## Prince of Spires (Dec 20, 2022)

pmmg said:


> What if a million things? What if, she told her idea, and someone took it, and put out a story with a similar boy, in a similar story, with similar ideas, and it caught on? I bet Mrs. Rowling she would care.


I think you missed my point. I meant that the for the idea descibed your thoughts immediately went to Harry Potter. However, the exact same idea description could also be used to describe the Dresden Files. Same idea, very different executions. It's not the idea that matters, it's the execution of that idea. The best idea in the world won't make a great story if the execution is bad. But a terrible idea can make a great story if it has great execution.

Magical boarding schools were nothing new when Harry Potter came out, but that didn't stop it from becoming what it is. Same with pretty much any other idea out there.


----------



## A. E. Lowan (Dec 20, 2022)

Prince of Spires said:


> I think you missed my point. I meant that the for the idea descibed your thoughts immediately went to Harry Potter. However, the exact same idea description could also be used to describe the Dresden Files. Same idea, very different executions. It's not the idea that matters, it's the execution of that idea. The best idea in the world won't make a great story if the execution is bad. But a terrible idea can make a great story if it has great execution.
> 
> Magical boarding schools were nothing new when Harry Potter came out, but that didn't stop it from becoming what it is. Same with pretty much any other idea out there.


Prince is absolutely correct, pmmg, and not only is there no such thing as an original idea, I think at the core here it sounds like we're having a miscommunication as to what makes an idea and what makes a story. An idea is just that, a passing thought. Watching an older lady cross the street and imagining her as a sorcerous on a quest. Bam, you have an idea. Now, sifting through your horde of ideas to find the one that speaks to both you and your Muse, and then launching into world building and character development and then plot... that's idea that's graduated to project. Now we're cooking.

So, to recap, an idea is a bottle of glitter, a mess waiting to happen, and a project is when you've gotten the glue out and now the kraft room will never be the same. You've taken the glitter and made it yours.

Does that make things a bit clearer?


----------



## A. E. Lowan (Dec 20, 2022)

pmmg said:


> That is one school of thought, and for many ideas, this may be true, but for some it isn't. Some Idea's are in fact different, and have one best chance to resonate. After which, they are spent, to use again is to reuse, and the impact wanes.
> 
> I can come up with 100 ideas in an hour if I like, but occasionally 1 out of a 100 is worth keeping to myself.
> 
> If Mrs. Rowling would have shared that idea with me, and I popped out a story about a wizard named harry who talks to snakes while she was writing hers...I bet she would not have liked that.


Funny thing is something along those lines is exactly what happened. Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone came out roughly 5 years before Harry Dresden graced the scene, different subgenres but related under the Fantasy banner, nonetheless. Did anyone accuse Butcher of stealing his story idea? Of course not, because no idea (or battle plan) survives first contact, and so even if I sat down to write a story based on an idea I saw here, it wouldn't be the same because one, crucial, aspect has changed.

Me.

Stories are born of us. They are shards of our souls that we send out into the dark to find new homes, rarely knowing how they were received. I can't steal an idea any more than anyone else can, because the spark that gives the idea life is within you, and that can never be taken away.


----------



## skip.knox (Dec 20, 2022)

I don't know how to steal an idea. You have an idea. I can listen to you describe it, but that's sort of like someone describing a dream: I can hear it, but it isn't going to resonate the same for me, and I can't capture the nuances that made it memorable to you. 

What I could do is take the idea as you described it and go off and write my own story. As A. E. Lowen says, the process of writing the story makes it irretrievably mine and not yours.

Now, it could very well be that you read my story and think hey, that's how I would have written it too, and now I cant write it because it would be about the same. I can see being discouraged. I can even see worrying that a reader might read your book and my book and asserting that the one stole the story from the other. Of course, you'd have had to have written yours, too, for that to happen.

But honestly, I can't get myself too worked up over such an unlikely outcome. Someone writes a book about goblins invading the Roman Empire, that's fine. More power to them. If we get three of us together, we're a sub-genre. Or maybe it's a conspiracy. <g>

Where I do see it being something of an issue is with magazines and short stories. If the thief swipes my idea, writes the story, and gets it published at a magazine, that might very well slam the door for me, because editors know what's up elsewhere and would not want to publish a copy story (which is how they would regard mine). That would be cause for distress. But for novels, I don't see it as an issue. Nobody notices my books anyway! <g>


----------



## pmmg (Dec 20, 2022)

Well, I can see I will get no traction is with, but the statement 'there are no such things as original ideas' is false, many ideas are original, and the last original idea has not been dreamed yet, and along with this the field also changes. If you want to strike when the iron is hot, and think you have to one that might land, you would do well not to share it. And when you have an idea lifted, even though the story is different, you will know.

I will leave it to you to decide what you share and what you don't.


----------



## skip.knox (Dec 20, 2022)

Fair enough, pmmg. The very notion of originality depends on how we humans recognize pattern, but certainly every idea was original once upon a time. And every idea can be seen as derivative, if we abstract our view sufficiently. What constitutes originality and how it is to be recognized and defined, I leave as an exercise for the student. <g>


----------



## Prince of Spires (Tuesday at 5:35 AM)

I've come across a presentation which explains this whole discussion, and why it even is a discussion: 




There are different types of writers (more than in that presentation actually, but this just focusses on one aspect of writing). For some writers original ideas and forging new ground is one of the most important aspects of creating fiction. They probably don't want to share their ideas, since the thought of somebody using that idea turns them off writing the idea. 

For others it doesn't matter. They could be actively looking for existing ideas, or don't care if someone has done it before, or any of another dozen option. Those types of writers probably freely share their ideas, since the idea is a lot less precious to them.


----------



## pmmg (Tuesday at 8:04 PM)

The audio quality is a little low. I let it play in my loooong drive home today. It was hard to understand at places. 

So, the gist of it is we all fit into these categories of writer types, and each can be successful. The gifts of one, dont have to be your gifts, you can make it with the gifts you have.  Welllllll.... that is pretty much life. Everyone is different. And it should not be surprising that some value their ideas more than others, or maybe more so, some value the value of ideas more than others. As you travel around writer circles (or really any circles), you will hear many things that seem to just pass for the 'great wisdom', and we should just accept them as a given. One of these is the statement: There is no such thing as an original idea. It may feel that way, but someone was the first to do everything. Somewhere along the way, someone was first to think of every idea we think cant be expanded upon today. And equally true in stories and fiction. They were not thinking about light sabers when they were writing Last of the Mohegans. Someone after thought of it first. 

Personally, while neat to, I never found it useful to see if I match a category because no one ever exactly does. In listening to these, I find I can identify with parts of all of them. It might be, I fit most closely to Trail Blazer (which is the one that would hold most prominent their ideas), but all of them had aspects I find I could fit myself into. Trail Blazer would be good, but I also watch the market, does that mean I am Drafter instead? But I am not really trying to do someone else better...so not quite. The same is true for Evergreen and Island. I often feel like an island. But I've said a number of times, I dont likely share your values. And I dont expect to find many who would agree with me, least not from an site catering to artistic types.

I do however, always find such things interesting, and try to steal from them stuff to sift through and see what seems real and what seems like fluff. I am sure that these categories identified are likely true for many people, enough that the observation could be made. I also liked that she used dials and sliders. I would improve on that. I think people are made up and many tiny thermostat like traits. They have a preferred setting, and can drift high or low of it, even quite far, but over time they will start to drift back. It would be rare that the thermostat gets a new setting. I also like that she put to bed all the 'must outline' types. I have never outlined. It will never be the way I do it.

Now if only I could find that secret they are all looking for


----------



## Demesnedenoir (Wednesday at 10:19 AM)

Much depends on the definition of original. If you look at a story idea at its core, it's not going to be original. For instance, trapped on Mars alone, as in _The Martian,_ is original in its Details, but at its Core Story, it is not original at all, a stranded survival story that's been done a thousand times.

Sharing your plot idea is fine, but that also depends on the definition. A tagline? Sure. A general concept? Yes. If I was a hard-core outliner I might not hand it out willy-nilly, heh heh.

The bigger threat, oddly enough, is just having your book ripped off, retitled, re-covered, and re-marketed AFTER you publish it.


----------



## pmmg (Wednesday at 12:18 PM)

I see that the topic of Plot and Ideas got mixed up. 

For a plot, I might give a top level sample, but it would not give anything away. 'New hero get tossed into an epic conflict and has to kill a baddie.' That's not the same as the ideas that make it different from everyone elses. So might be more forthcoming with plot, but...my plots dont tend to fit well into a one sentence sum up.

If I was to take anything to its broadest explanation, I am sure it is true it will seem like many others. Fiction has pretty much defined at its base there are only a limited number of conflicts and story types, A sentence like 'New hero gets tossed into an epic conflict and has to kill a baddie' is so broad as to fit to most fantasy stories out there. But if its was 'Hobbit gets a ring that belongs to a baddie, and he has to risk much to destroy it.' already I am giving away details that others may not be writing. If I start to go more specific, I will eventually cross into territory I would not share until I have used it in public. And if you are the first one to have light sabers, and you want to hit the reading public, its best to keep that to yourself. I would need a useful reason not to.


----------



## Prince of Spires (Thursday at 3:53 AM)

pmmg said:


> Personally, while neat to, I never found it useful to see if I match a category because no one ever exactly does. In listening to these, I find I can identify with parts of all of them


I agree. These kind of categories are only a rough aproximation, and no one will fit into them exactly. It's a continuum, and not a fixed box. What I do think is useful is the realization that everyones process for getting to a story, and what they value about writing is different. Just like with plotters and pantsers. A pure pantser can't plot because they'd feel they then have already writen the story, while if I don't plot I get stuck at some point and have no clue what to write.

The same here. I don't value ideas all that much. For me it's all in the execution of the idea, and I believe that a terrible idea with great execution is always better that the best idea in the world with terrible execution. That drives my writing and how I look at storytelling. 

However, that says something about me. Notice the "I believe" and "my writing" in that paragraph. For others that conclusion may be very different. And that is down to how we are wired. And if you need an original idea you haven't come across to be able to write it, then you'll reach a very different conclusion about sharing ideas.


----------



## FifthView (Thursday at 10:56 AM)

Demesnedenoir said:


> The bigger threat, oddly enough, is just having your book ripped off, retitled, re-covered, and re-marketed AFTER you publish it.



Hollywood does this with movies, eh?  One movie hits box office gold, and three other studios attempt to replicate it.  By replicating it. My first experience of this happened when I was about 12 or 13 years old and so many knockoffs of E.T. began appearing. Every one was subpar, at least in the comparison, even if I still enjoyed some of them for quick entertainment.

I also remember a review of the _Ender's Game_ movie trailer, paraphrased:  "So it's basically Hunger Games?"  Cringeworthy.  I'm still cringing. But this does highlight the fact that a newer creation can sometimes appear to be the original presentation of an idea—for _someone_.  _Which came first_ doesn't always matter. We could dig through the archives and find a hundred examples of popular movies or novels that had antecedents few know about.

I am somewhat sympathetic with pmmg's perspective here. Under some circumstances, a stolen idea brought to market first can capture the zeitgeist (or shape it), preventing  or limiting the success of anything that comes after it.  If the person who steals  your idea happens to be a much better writer, a much quicker writer, and can get the finished product to market faster, you might be in trouble, heh.  At least, there's only so much space at the top of the bestseller charts. (Or in a particular writing competition.)

I think Hollywood and the movie and streaming industries are a narrower funnel than the publishing world, with wider reach, so this kind of scenario is more likely there than in publishing.


----------



## FifthView (Thursday at 11:08 AM)

pmmg said:


> A sentence like 'New hero gets tossed into an epic conflict and has to kill a baddie' is so broad as to fit to most fantasy stories out there. But if its was 'Hobbit gets a ring that belongs to a baddie, and he has to risk much to destroy it.' already I am giving away details that others may not be writing.



I agree.

I also agree with those who say ideas are a dime a dozen and execution is more important.

I think the problem will only rear its head when there is a true competition for some top spots on bestseller lists or in writing competitions.  As a novel rises, not only is it compared to other novels but other novels coming after are compared to it. How many knockoffs of Tolkien's novels exist—and haven't we actually seen that criticism many times over, Such and Such is basically a ripoff of Tolkien? I think maybe a whole decade—the 80's?—is described as one big Tolkien heist. This tendency to compare comes naturally.  Yes, some productions will lose in the comparison. Some might actually benefit, at least to the degree that readers actively seek out certain tropes, plots, etc., they grew to love in some other novel.

Below the top spots, especially far below, it's not going to matter much.  If I stole one of your ideas, wrote the thing, and brought it to market first—well, I'm a nobody and probably by the time you bring yours out none of your potential buyers are going to know that I was first, heh.

*Edit:* Ah, I was going to add, but forgot, that I'm very guarded about my work in at least two areas. I won't share my maps, and I won't share character or place names. At least, I won't post these willy-nilly across the internet. Mostly this is because I've spent a lot of time creating names that are unusual, and I don't want to see them popping up anywhere else before I'm ready to hand deliver these tremendous gifts to the world.


----------



## pmmg (Thursday at 11:56 AM)

FifthView said:


> Below the top spots, especially far below, it's not going to matter much. If I stole one of your ideas, wrote the thing, and brought it to market first—well, I'm a nobody and probably by the time you bring yours out none of your potential buyers are going to know that I was first, heh.



That is true, but I would not want to be Tolkien and being called a Lewis clone by all and sundry. Unless I had reason to trust him, I would not have told Lewis anything about hobbits, or rings, or most of any of it. Not till I had put it out. He could be a beta reader


----------



## FifthView (Thursday at 12:25 PM)

pmmg said:


> That is true, but I would not want to be Tolkien and being called a Lewis clone by all and sundry. Unless I had reason to trust him, I would not have told Lewis anything about hobbits, or rings, or most of any of it. Not till I had put it out. He could be a beta reader



Being a Tolkien or Lewis. Truly, we have entered fantasy territory.


----------



## Demesnedenoir (Thursday at 2:01 PM)

In a world of millions, even in the much smaller world of screenwriting, it's also extremely common to see concurrent development of the same basic idea. My favorite tale, being its one I had chatted with the writer, is when this poor bloke was flown to H'Wood, wined and dined, and verbally implied they'd be buying his script. He flew home, and like a week later, Variety announced the development of Drumline, which it turns out was extremely close to his script. He no longer existed to the studio heads looking to buy his script, LOL.

Another from personal contact was the screenwriter of K-9, who was starting up his own little production company and they'd had this comedy script based around RV's in the works for quite a while, then all of a sudden! Here comes a Robin Williams RV movie... the race was on, and he lost if I'm not mistaken. Far as I know, he never finished the film, in particular after Williams' flick kinda bombed.

In many cases, in pop culture, ideas don't come from a vacuum; there is some inspiration sitting out there that more than one person latches onto.



FifthView said:


> Hollywood does this with movies, eh?  One movie hits box office gold, and three other studios attempt to replicate it.  By replicating it. My first experience of this happened when I was about 12 or 13 years old and so many knockoffs of E.T. began appearing. Every one was subpar, at least in the comparison, even if I still enjoyed some of them for quick entertainment.
> 
> I also remember a review of the _Ender's Game_ movie trailer, paraphrased:  "So it's basically Hunger Games?"  Cringeworthy.  I'm still cringing. But this does highlight the fact that a newer creation can sometimes appear to be the original presentation of an idea—for _someone_.  _Which came first_ doesn't always matter. We could dig through the archives and find a hundred examples of popular movies or novels that had antecedents few know about.
> 
> ...


----------



## Demesnedenoir (Thursday at 2:04 PM)

With Game of Thrones, sometimes I swear any epic with frigid weather in it will get called a GoT clone. Seriously? Martin didn't invent a single trope that SoIaF is known for, LOL.


----------



## Demesnedenoir (Thursday at 2:08 PM)

Book theft: There have been people out there who quite literally copy other people's book and market them as their own. Different cover, different title, they might change some names and other stuff to throw off automated protection that Amazon might have by checking metadata. A fake author can throw together a backlist of a hundred books goddamned fast by cheating! Throw it on KU, advertise the shit out of it, zoom-bam! Income. Back n the days of trad publishing only, you could hand your MS around fairly safely, these days, ha! One of these people could rip you off in a heartbeat.

The best defense against this I know of has been readers catching it.


----------



## pmmg (Thursday at 2:43 PM)

Same thing happened with Costner's Robin hood. Three production companies all decided to do Robin hood at once, but two of them pulled it cause Costner was a bigger draw. It was a pity, cause Costner's was not best of the three.

I figure that those companies watch each other. They all want to hit when the iron is hot. Which to me speaks to their lack of true creativity.

Ya know, it could be there are a hundred people writing a story similar to mine as I write, but I doubt it. If so, more power to them. But they are not going to get their ideas from me. Least not the ones I want to use. 

And I did become concerned for Game of Thrones having a winter environment. It add that sentiment to my work, but I swear I did not read Game of thrones till way late. It was always a Finland/Norway type of setting. Winter is coming.... Hard to escape that comparison. But I don't have the black guards, or frost giants, so....




Demesnedenoir said:


> Book theft: There have been people out there who quite literally copy other people's book and market them as their own. Different cover, different title, they might change some names and other stuff to throw off automated protection that Amazon might have by checking metadata. A fake author can throw together a backlist of a hundred books goddamned fast by cheating! Throw it on KU, advertise the shit out of it, zoom-bam! Income. Back n the days of trad publishing only, you could hand your MS around fairly safely, these days, ha! One of these people could rip you off in a heartbeat.
> 
> The best defense against this I know of has been readers catching it.



I've heard of this. And since they change all the names, it would be hard to detect. Someone would have to find it and clue you in. All I can say is I would be disappointed if it happened to me, but I doubt there is any recourse.


----------



## Demesnedenoir (Thursday at 3:00 PM)

Amazon will pull their books, and if you had a good lawyer and an idea of what they made off of you, it can be done. Has been done, I think. Main thing is Amazon, as I think most of these cheats rely on Kindle Unlimited fairly heavily.

The other trick is ripping off OOP books and calling them theirs. Also tricky to catch.



pmmg said:


> Same thing happened with Costner's Robin hood. Three production companies all decided to do Robin hood at once, but two of them pulled it cause Costner was a bigger draw. It was a pity, cause Costner's was not best of the three.
> 
> I figure that those companies watch each other. They all want to hit when the iron is hot. Which to me speaks to their lack of true creativity.
> 
> ...


----------



## ThinkerX (Thursday at 5:00 PM)

My books do contain some...rarely used variants of the Lovecraftian mythology that might appeal to the book thieves. But first, they'd have to find the books...


----------



## Darkfantasy (Thursday at 5:04 PM)

Off topic...I created this post in 2012? Huh? Jesus I'm getting old. But so nice to see some of the same faces here still! Love this place and been away far to long. 

On topic - seen some really mixed opinions. But I agree. An idea is just an idea and any writing it would do it differently. I no longer fear sharing anything now.


----------

