# Exploring Assassin's Creed 2



## Sheilawisz (Jun 21, 2015)

After having finished the whole adventure and emotions of _Assassin's Creed_, I have spent a rather long time enjoying the special reward that the game gives you... which means having some really crazy fun with Altair, all before starting to play the second game of the series.

I loved the original AC so much that I was sure I was hooked to the series for the rest of my life, but now AC2 has proven to be a severe disappointment to me.

When I played Ezio's adventure for the first time, I expected to find a game similar to AC but more polished.

Instead, I find this Disney-like parody of what the original Assassin's Creed was. I do not feel like an Assassin anymore, Ezio is a jerk, the scenery is beautiful but the game is so story-heavy that it feels like watching a movie more than playing a game and almost the entire AC system has been changed.

The intense, heart-pounding and heavily sadistic battles of AC have been replaced by slow and boring combat, the guards are like sitting ducks, everything is softened...

What the hell happened?

Instead of having real Assassin missions assigned to me, a strategy to research and a mysterious boss to give results to, I get a series of mini tasks to complete and this Flynn Rider-like character so different to the ice-cold and absolutely brutal Altair that I love.

Some people have told me that AC2 is what the rest of the series is modeled after... please tell me that's not true.


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## Philster401 (Jun 21, 2015)

Assassin's creed 2 is considered the best part of the assassin's creed series by many. I personally loved ac2 trilogy and disliked to the point of not finishing, assassin's creed, because there is no point to Altair. He to me was the jerk he disobeyed the creed and you had to work to get back in favor with the master assassin. The misaions were so hard I finally decided to not finish it and start ac2 and right from the start it had me interested they had characters which you get to know and a heroe which had a motive to get revenge on those who killed his brother and father. While you learn why Desmond is important to the story. My personal favorite game was ac4 it was the first one I played only problem I had with it was how abruptly it ended. Then there's ac 3 which at the very end was a disappointment. Now i'm going to start rogue when I find the time.

I'd suggest at least finishing the Ezio trilogy before making any decisions on whether to quit playing ac.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jun 21, 2015)

Sorry to hear that Sheila.  I played AC and AC2 in order, and personally I loved them both.  The subsequent games are heavily story-driven, and some people don't like that.  Personally I like it because I love getting involved in stories in games.  I do sometimes miss the kinds of missions from the first game and the freedom it gave you, but AC2 really diversifies what you can do and gives more variety, and there are still many places where you really have to be careful and strategic.  As for Ezio, yes he has his moments of being a jerk, but then so did Altair, and Ezio goes through quite detailed character development through the stories.  Some people say the series is stretching itself too far, but I would say play AC Brotherhood because it develops Ezio's character more, then play AC Revelations because it ties up the stories of Ezio and Altair towards the end of their lives (you also go back to Masyaf).  That's just my opinion, personally I think they're all worth playing for the scenery and music .


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 21, 2015)

The very first impression that I got from Altair is that he was arrogant and full of himself, to the point that he endangered the lives of two fellow Assassins and almost ruined a very important mission.

This soon leads to severe consequences, and then he begins a new adventure to redeem himself and regain the lost honor...

Altair grows into a better man with every mission that you complete, he begins to question the intentions of his own boss and in the end all of this prepared him to become the new and dazzling leader of the Assassin Brotherhood. The arrogant young Altair eventually saved the Holy Land, and he also transformed into a legend to be admired by the future generations of his fellows.

That is some great development for a character, it's not like he is empty...

I think people like AC2 more because almost everybody prefers the warm, handsome hero with a glowing heart, and to them Altair seems like a bag of bricks as some people have described him... but then, Altair is a freaking _Assassin!_ A cold blooded killer, a predator... What were they expecting?

Predator, that's the best way to describe Altair... In the other hand, Ezio is more like a Disney hero and he does not feel like the kind of person that would be a good Assassin at all.

By the way, I don't give a damn for Desmond and the present-time story that is part of the series.

@Philster: AC2 is a good game, I do not deny that. The problem that I have with it is that it's just not an Assassin game, it's more similar to a Legend of Zelda game. It completely lost the true soul and meaning of the original Assassin's Creed and replaced them with a totally different thing.

I'll keep advancing through AC2 as far as I can, but it's unlikely that I'll ever finish it let alone purchasing and playing the rest of Ezio's games. I plan to jump to AC3 within the following days. I also have Rogue, but I want to play some AC3 before I go straight into the sea adventure.

@Aidan: Hey, it's great to see you in Mythic Scribes again!

AC2 indeed offers more variety than the original AC. It would be great if Altair could choose what type of weapon to carry before leaving Masyaf every time a new mission starts, and I wish that he could swim too. However, the Medicine option of AC2 is simply ridiculous, like you were playing Legend of Zelda and unleashed your healing fairy during battle...

It's like the developers took the original stuff and said _"Hey everyone, look how much we can expand this concept!"_ And then they expanded it so much that it became barely recognizable.

They say that Connor is the antithesis of Ezio, so I'll probably enjoy playing AC3... We'll see =)


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 21, 2015)

I played ACII first, so I guess I'm biased.  The biggest complaint I have is that I only wanted to play in Venice because the scenery was so beautiful, as I advanced,  I didn't want to learn every turn in other places.

Oh, and i sucked at Leonard's flying machine.  I barely made it through that part and it took me several tries.  Wow that bit sucked.  i found II rather challenging, but the next one I played was Black Flag, and that one is no challenge at all.  Fun though.  I like to blow up ships.  I'm a fan of long games and after 25 hours of Black Flag, I've already destroyed two legendary ships and am 83% finished.    BUt I still like hunting ships.


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## Reaver (Jun 21, 2015)

I've played all the AC games for PS3 and AC2 is the best in my opinion. I think Ezio is very likable and fun to play.

AC3 is sooooo slow paced but the massive environment is a masterpiece of gaming tech and very immersive.

Black Flag is fun but if you get the timing for countering attacks, you're basically invincible. I enjoy the wreck dives and the ship battles.

Black Flag also has the best DLC in my opinion. Freedom Cry and Aveline are amazing and although Aveline has her own full game for the PS Vita, I'm hopeful that AdÃ©walÃ© will get his own someday soon.


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## Mindfire (Jun 22, 2015)

The jovial personality that puts your off of Ezio becomes more muted as his saga goes on. He achieves many victories but at great personal cost, making both wiser and more solemn as he gets older. I haven't finished either AC1 or Revelations yet, but from what I can tell Ezio's has a better arc than Altair does- which you would expect since his games are more story-driven. When you compare Ezio at the beginning of AC2, who's a womanizer, cocky, and a bit of a clown, with the older Ezio in ACR, who's more pragmatic, cautious, and, despite still being a bit of a wisecracker, seems to carry this weight of sadness all the time- you get a real sense of this character's journey. The whole point of Ezio's arc is that he's not the stone-cold killer that Altair was. That's why the two are contrasted with each other in ACR. Revelations is Ezio wrestling with the idea of what it means to be an Assassin- asking how they can do terrible things in the name of good while still holding onto their humanity. Ezio is very skilled, but because he has that golden heart- a heart that's been injured by all the tragedy and sacrifices that come with being an assassin- he knows he can't be a truly great Assassin. He can't be what Altair was. He started out with a very romanticized idea of what the Assassins are, and in the first game that's who he is: a swashbuckling hero seeking revenge. But as time goes on, he starts to lose his romantic ideals. He gets revenge, but it doesn't satisfy. He becomes disillusioned of his notions of poetic justice. Even his anger fizzles out. So when he comes to Masayaf in ACR, Ezio is tired. He's looking for meaning and purpose in what the Assassins do. He wants to know that all the pain and sacrifice and violations of conscience are worth it. So he seeks lessons from someone with legendary conviction and resolve: Altair. Ezio and Altair are very different, but their stories are meant to complement each other and I think it works. 

I could be overthinking it though.


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## Mindfire (Jun 22, 2015)

This is what I'm talking about. Also, Ezio is totally lying. He _is_ tired, and it shows.


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 22, 2015)

Hello Mindfire, thank you for your deep insight into Ezio's history and development as a character.

You have made me think again about why Ezio Auditore is like this in AC2, what being an Assassin means to him and what he will become, so I'll probably give him a chance and purchase Brotherhood and Revelations as well.

That AC Revelations video is superb, thanks for sharing that as well!

At the moment, in AC2 I am stuck at the first mission into Florence's Catacombs. I managed to open a locked big door, guards came out, I killed them and now I have to chase after another guard, but I have reached a point where a bridge or something was destroyed and now there is a wide fall that Ezio cannot jump through.

This Catacombs mission feels very much like playing _Ocarina of Time_ or even _Alice Madness Returns_, so different to the original Assassin's Creed... but yeah, I'll give young Ezio a chance.

@Maiden: You once told me that AC1 felt boring to you, but what aspects of it did you find boring?

I was interested in playing Black Flag, but the Caribbean setting is really not for me. Then I read somewhere that Rogue is sea-inspired too but you are in more Northern waters, and I decided to purchase it =)

@Reaver: It was you who convinced me to buy AC3, and I have not played it yet but I'll let you know my opinion of the game in a few days.


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## Mindfire (Jun 22, 2015)

No problem. Glad I could give some context. If young cocky Ezio turns out to be too much for you to stomach though, try Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood or even Revelations. Ezio starts to gain the maturity and perspective I mentioned when you go into AC2's endgame, but he really grows into it during Brotherhood, which is when his romantic ideals start falling away, and it's the core of his character in Revelations as you can tell in the video. So if you don't think playing through AC2 is worth it for the payoff you can skip ahead without any major problems since you don't really care about Desmond's story, although Ezio's development might lose some of its impact if you do that. It's up to you. 

I haven't played any of AC3 or AC4: Black Flag yet. But from what I can tell from trailers and hearsay, AC3's protagonist, Connor, is kinda like Native American Batman in terms of personality. Or at least that's what I get from him. Edward from Black Flag seems to be more like Jack Sparrow. Or rather, what Jack Sparrow was probably like _before_ he went totally insane. I don't know much about Rogue, but the fact that it tells the story from the Templar side is interesting.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 22, 2015)

I thought the combat was boring (remember, I played AC II first).  The only real challenge was in getting every secret, the game certainly didn't present a challenge for me, and I'm not really an avid gamer who masters stuff.

I loved Ezio's journey.  It was challenging, beautiful, and as mindfire illustrated, I sort of fell in love with the swashbuckling rogue, because that's what I guess I fancy myself, as a fencer who certainly isn't brawny, but probably would kill from the shadows.  I liked his story of revenge, too, because I immediately related to a guy whose innocence was dashed when his father and brother died and all he could do was watch.  

Ezio was my favorite and I loved his world and his goal of tracking down all the people who killed his family.  That resonated with me more than any assassin ideal.  I liked that for him, being an assassin was a means to an end.I guess I could just relate to him, because he was sort of like me in a fair amount of his story lines.  I loved the masquerade, the relationship with Leonardo...that made the game so much more interesting because I KNEW those people from history (both the ones he allied with and those he killed).  I mean, you've seen my fencing armor, right?  i fence in Ezio's doublet, made special so it's armored to SCA specifications.  I just HAD to!


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 23, 2015)

Hey Maiden.

I am starting to understand why people relate to Ezio Auditore and like him so much, though this subject remains dark and mysterious from my point of view. I'll continue to criticize the game and the character in this thread anyway, so I want to say in advance that I am sorry in case anything I post here feels hurtful to the fans of AC2.

It's curious that you found AC combat boring.

I imagined that an AC2 player would describe AC battles as faster and more vicious than those in the second game, and also more difficult. In my case, I feel bored and uninspired when I fight and kill guards as Ezio, while fighting as Altair is much more engaging, heart-pounding and intense to me.

Ezio's ability to Taunt the guards in battle reveals warm blood and personality, so that's another thing that I dislike about him...

At the moment, I have passed the Catacombs mission and now I am climbing inside of the abandoned Cathedral in search of some type of treasure hidden there. Now I regret having accepted this crazy mission, because it's boring as hell and I cannot go back to the streets until I complete this thing.

So far, the funniest activity that I have found in AC2 is grabbing civilians, toss them to the ground and kick the hell out of them before stealing their money. That's something that you cannot do in AC, and it's mildly effective in making Ezio seem colder and meaner than he is supposed to be.

After thinking a little more about Ezio, I came to the conclusion that he makes no sense as a character.

First, the original Assassin's Creed came and proved to be a great success. Then, it turned out that loads of people disliked the cold-blooded killer that is the main character, despite the fact that the game is called _Assassin_'s Creed and it's about performing Assassiny things.

Then, AC2 comes and we have this gallant _sex symbol_ full of personality as protagonist.

Ezio is warm, charming and has a good heart, which is incompatible with what a true Assassin would be. The players wanted a character that would be all those good things and, at the same time, a freaking serial killer... To me that is a big _WTF!_ moment, and I am having trouble to understand it.

My thought is that a warm-hearted person like Ezio would be destroyed by guilt and remorse soon after starting to kill people, but the game does not seem to care about that. Anyway, other impossible things happen in the Assassin's Creed world, like the Leaps of Faith, so it's necessary to stretch the real world limitations a little.


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## Gryphos (Jun 23, 2015)

I love AC2, it's overall my favourite game of the series, mainly because of the story and atmosphere, and of course Ezio.

The thing about Ezio is that he isn't an Assassin in the same way Altair was an Assassin. Ezio never wanted to join any Order and fight the Templars, he just wanted to get revenge for the deaths of his father and brothers. In that sense, he isn't going to be the same emotionless, cold-hearted killer as Altair. He's going to be funny, charming, charismatic, but also filled with rage that drives him onwards on his quest for vengeance. He's a nice guy, unless you wronged him, at which point you're dead. Sure, this emotional nature doesn't make him the ideal Assassin, but he never signed up to be an Assassin, he signed up to dish out some revenge.

As to the rest of the game, the only aspect that sucks to me is the combat. It is just so slow and repetitive. But I'm willing to look past that and still say that AC2 is overall pretty sweet. And combat has never been a strength of AC anyway.


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## Mindfire (Jun 23, 2015)

Sheilawisz said:


> Ezio is warm, charming and has a good heart, which is incompatible with what a true Assassin would be. The players wanted a character that would be all those good things and, at the same time, a freaking serial killer... To me that is a big _WTF!_ moment, and I am having trouble to understand it.



Is it really _that_ hard to understand? Ezio is clearly meant to be a hero in the vein of the Three Musketeers, the Scarlet Pimpernel, Zorro, etc. I don't think there's anything especially unheroic or traumatic about him killing people when you view it through that lens. And I feel like people in that time period weren't as shy about violence as your average modern person. People carried swords in public if they could afford it, and not just for decoration. And when you consider the people Ezio is fighting, the Borgias are some of the most cartoonishly villainous people to ever actually exist. So I'm not exactly shedding any tears for them and their minions. It's just a different perspective, tone, and story from the first AC and you may need to adjust. But like I said, it's all in service of Ezio's arc.

EDIT: Gryphos has it exactly. Ezio isn't looking to get involved in a shadow war. He just wants to take out the people who killed his family. Basically, he is Inigo Montoya.


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 23, 2015)

I understand Ezio better now, as the heroic and charming character that he was designed to be.

What I am having trouble to grasp is what people see in him, why most players of the Assassin's Creed series dislike (and sometimes even hate) Altair while Ezio is showered with love and affection. I think the reality should be the opposite, because the original concept was about being an actual Assassin.

They took all of that and turned it into a heroic tale a la Three Musketeers...

I am not sure how ordinary it would be to just draw a sword and kill people in 15th Century Italy. What I know for sure is that the ability to do such things over and over again and just go on with your life is more a biological than a cultural thing, and certainly a person like Ezio would be incapable of it.

Altair must be a hell of a sociopath which explains his general coldness and Assassin capability, while Ezio clearly is not. Then, we have an Ezio that is a normal, good-hearted person sometimes and a cold murderer some other times... Weird.

I have a feeling that I'll really like the older Ezio in Brotherhood and Revelations, but first I want to see how far I can play into Assassin's Creed 2.


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## Gryphos (Jun 23, 2015)

Sheilawisz said:
			
		

> What I am having trouble to grasp is what people see in him, why most players of the Assassin's Creed series dislike (and sometimes even hate) Altair while Ezio is showered with love and affection. I think the reality should be the opposite, because the original concept was about being an actual Assassin.



Well Altair's stupid out-of-place american accent doesn't exactly help. But otherwise, I suppose it's because Ezio is simply more entertaining a character. The whole stone-cold killer shpeal is aight at first, but in the long run that kind of character doesn't tend to garner affection as much as the charming musketeer. Like, I don't think I could remember a single specific line of dialogue Altair had, but Ezio had loads of cool lines and moments.


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## Mindfire (Jun 23, 2015)

Sheilawisz said:


> What I know for sure is that the ability to do such things over and over again and just go on with your life is more a biological than a cultural thing, and certainly a person like Ezio would be incapable of it.
> 
> Altair must be a hell of a sociopath which explains his general coldness and Assassin capability, while Ezio clearly is not. Then, we have an Ezio that is a normal, good-hearted person sometimes and a cold murderer some other times...



Well when you think of your target less as a person and more as an evil monster, it gets a lot easier. And the more you know about the Borgias, the easier it gets to see them as villainous bastards. They make the Lannisters look downright pleasant.


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## Philster401 (Jun 23, 2015)

" Then, we have an Ezio that is a normal, good-hearted person sometimes and a cold murderer some other times... Weird."

Most games and books are like that if you don't realise that because not many people like 2d characters, and call it what you like, Altair was 2 dimensional he had no feelings at all he might as well have been a faceless character with no name like the dragonborn, unless the story isn't important to game play.

Another thing to think about is that Ezio and Altair are different people and that as a game people create characters people will like not ones that psychologically fit the story. Yet don't forget Ezio never coldheartedly murdered anyone he showed remorse every time he killed one of the main enemies and probably for all of his kills they just didn't put it in final version of the game. He was always warm hearted all he wanted like any characters similar to him is revenge.

Finally ac3 has a character that has a good mid point between. Ezio and Altair (leaning towards Altair but doesn't kill emotionless.)

But I'm not very good at defending things so...I'm going to stop.


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 23, 2015)

Hello Gryphos.

The American accent that they gave to Altair sounds just fine to me, but I am not a native speaker of English so I guess that something like that is much more annoying to other players. They should have given him a decent Arabic accent, that would have been much cooler.

According to Ezio's characteristics, _Assassin's Creed 2_ should be played like this:

*Main Weapons:* Ezio would take out most of his enemies by means of tranquilizer darts, sleeping fumes, some chloroform-like liquid to throw to their faces and other non-lethal tricks. Also, he would be presented as a fighter powerful enough to knock out multiple foes by means of punches and kicks, without causing death.

*When to Kill:* The game would allow Ezio to actually draw out his sword or other lethal weapons only when his life is endangered, I mean when he is desperately losing a fight. The game would not only encourage, but force the player to stay within non-lethal actions almost all of the time.

*Kill Limitations:* Civilians would be untouchable, like they are in _Ocarina of Time_.

*Consequences of Killing:* Even though Ezio would furiously kill the people that murdered his family, he would sometimes express at least some discomfort with the fact that he is a killer.

That's the kind of game that would better suit Ezio, it would make more sense.


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## Philster401 (Jun 23, 2015)

Ezio didn't kill citizens technically only when you play as him are you able to kill citizens but synchronization is lower and if you continue killing them you are supposed to restart the level, but I never killed citizens so I wouldn't know, only guards.


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 23, 2015)

Mindfire and Philster:

I have not played AC2 long enough to see if Ezio feels remorse after killing his Targets, or not. So far I have only assassinated the evil man that hanged Ezio's father and brothers, and the Templar boy in the other town during the night. Certainly, the fact that the Borgias are super evil would make it easier and more justifiable for Ezio to kill them.

Then, what about the Guards?

In the Catacomb mission, there were some guards talking about how happy they were to have earned so much gold for that particular job. They were not responsible for Ezio's tragedy, they were there simply because some Templar paid them a lot of money to protect the special meeting.

The game requires Ezio to kill them anyway, then you have to chase and kill the lonely guard that runs away and after that you kill some more guards at a different room.

Ezio showed no remorse after this part of the game was over.

That's the kind of thing Altair would do, and it's precisely what I feel that comes into conflict with the charming hero approach. Think of dear old Link (Legend of Zelda): He chases and kills monsters only, never people... while in the other hand, Ezio kills people like an Assassin does.


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## Philster401 (Jun 23, 2015)

Remember your playing a game inside of a persons memories of a persons memory we don't know how ezio actually killed/didn't kill people. So if you wish to play it in a way that would make more sense to you for example playing with weapons that wouldn't kill that's your choice and it would also make the game more difficult which should be a plus for you if you are looking for more difficult fights.


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## Mindfire (Jun 23, 2015)

The guards? You mean the incredibly corrupt, dickish guards who work for the Borgias and will shoot you full of arrows just for being on a roof?


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 23, 2015)

Philster, I am sorry if you feel offended by my criticizing of Ezio Auditore and Assassin's Creed 2.

I know and accept that it's a great game, and I am happy that you and surely millions of other players have enjoyed and loved it so much. My intention with this thread is to show why I have disapproved of it, and why (at least in my opinion) AC2 is not an Assassin game but something very different.

It's like they took some elements from AC, combined them with Zelda elements, added some other things and Assassin's Creed 2 was created as the result.

Maybe as I advance deeper into the game I'll like it more and separately from AC, who knows.


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## Philster401 (Jun 23, 2015)

No I'm not really offended I accept that some of what you say is true and the other half I have no clue about mostly Zelda I personally don't care for legend of Zelda but that is a different story. I just am trying to help but I accept that my posts could be taken as being offended and I'm sorry if I offended you.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 24, 2015)

If you kill citizens as Ezio, you get desynchronization.  I accidentally did it once, when I crashed into some people and was armed.  I killed two or three people because I was running from guards and the game first warned me that Ezio "did not kill civilians" and then it desynchronized.

I think for me, I related to Ezio immediately.   Maybe it's my love of Renaissance Italy, maybe the game was what really brought that passion forward for me.  Before playing the game, I tended to create English gowns and wasn't too interested in the garb on the continent, but after, I couldn't get enough of the Venetian styles.  IN fact, I realized some of Queen Elizabeth's dresses I loved so much were styled after "the Italian fashion" as recorded in a letter where Queen Elizabeth sent someone to Italy to steal a tailor from Catherine de Medici.

I think for me, the game was less about trying to understand Ezio as a real life person and acknowledging that he was a creation of a fantasy world.  In my writing, I do the same.  Take a normal person, throw them into a fantasy world, ramp up their traits and triggers, and set them on their way like an overwound set of chattering teeth or something.  Just watch where they go and what happens.  Sometimes they turn out alright...other times, they leave damage in their wake.  It's sort of what makes it fantasy and fun to me.  If I was playing a character that murdered women in their homes...I wouldn't have enjoyed it because it would have struck close to home.  But the adventure and fiction of it was what made me want to play on, to see where the story was going.  I wouldn't condone killing off people who wronged you...but there's something rather cathartic about doing it in a video game for fun.  Does that make me callous?  I don't think so.  It's not much different from any other sort of fiction.  I mean, I write swordsmen and mages who do things that might be considered immoral, but I put them in circumstances where their lives are on the line or they need to make difficult decisions, and they MUST do things we don't really have to do in real life.  

That's sort of how I saw Ezio.  He has enemies not unlike the military might.  I wouldn't call Ezio any more a killer than I would a soldier or a cop.  His role is to create a balance and root out a corrupt group of people.  That large goal overshadows the small immoral things that lead up to it (like killing guards who are technically innocent though they would kill him if given the chance).  I didn't ever feel like Ezio's story made him a monster.  In fact, when you're upgrading the house and taking care of his mother, you see how much he's sacrificed to bring his father's murderers to justice.  I think perhaps Ezio appeals to people who love Batman (yes, going back to the timeless Batman/ Superman debate I started like 2 years ago).  Perhaps you just happen to be a Superman kinda girl, Sheila.  And that's okay.  I understand that you probably have different tastes.  But for me, it's Batman (and Ezio) all the way.  Because revenge is something that drives my spirit and imagination oh so much more than righteousness and good for the sake of goodness.  See, that's a sort of character I'd find terribly dull and it wouldn't hold my attention.  I guess it's one of the biggest reasons I write sort of average Joe characters into my books rather than heroes.  I like normal people with complex personalities who have to make tough decisions and have to keep their emotions in check and their flaws under control.  Probably because I'm so much more like them than the heroic characters.


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 24, 2015)

@Philster: No worries, I am fine and happy to be able to discuss this respectfully.

Mindfire, the issue with the Guards is an interesting one. While it's true that many of them are evil (like the ones Altair kills in _Save the Citizen_ missions) and other guards work happily for their corrupt masters in both games, there are also good guards that simply want to protect their cities.

When Altair kills somebody in front of the Masyaf guards, they immediately charge to try and stop him. The same has happened to my Ezio in Florence: In case there are Florentine guards nearby when Ezio abuses the civilians, they rush to attack him in defense of the people.

The games say _"Killing Civilians is Wrong!"_, but for some reason it's okay to kill dozens and even hundreds of righteous guards who probably only got into that job to give their families a better life. This unusual system of moral values is present in all of the AC games except for Rogue, as far as I know.

Tonight I have completed the Climbing inside of the Florence Cathedral.

It was very frustrating, but getting to the top of the very cross outside was quite satisfying in a way similar to Altair's climb of the Acre Cathedral. After that I completed the scenes when the Pazzi leader attacked the Medici brothers... That looked quite brutal, and the game does not feel so Disney anymore.

The Assassination of the Pazzi leader after that was cool, though still not as intense as my favorites in AC.

I am trying to be more friendly to Ezio while I play with him, but still I cannot get over the fact that he feels like a romantic justice hero instead of a real Assassin. Hell, I even hate his suit which looks so extravagant in comparison to Altair's, like Ezio was supposed to be... What? A _fashionable_ Assassin?

From my point of view of all this, it's like the developers Ubisoft said:

_"Oh great, Assassin's Creed is excellent but people want a more likeable character. The story is about these killers called Assassin, but let's make a charismatic serial killer anyway... He will be hot and sexy, and let's give him a touching story so people can relate to him. A lovable hero, despite all the murdering involved! Screw the concept of the Cold Assassin that we started with..."_

I'll probably never understand completely why most AC players love Ezio so much, because I think in a very different way, but I have grasped a pretty good explanation so far.

@Maiden:

The desynchronization for killing civilians is present in AC1 too, but you need to murder several civilians quickly for it to take place. There is much less tolerance for the same behavior in AC2, despite the fact that you can grab, toss, kick and rob all the civilians that you want and nothing happens.

I accidentally kill civilians in AC1 when they run through a fight between Altair and the guards, which is something very bad to do because it leads to Altair losing Synchronization levels and getting destroyed by the vicious guards more easily.

The most interesting part of AC is this: After completing the game you can kill all the civilians that you want and nothing happens, so it can be nasty, shocking and even cathartic (as you said) to simply walk into Jerusalem with the sword in Altair's hand and unleash some catastrophic devastation everywhere.

I agree that our like or dislike of the Settings can influence our appreciation of the entire game.

For you it has been your love of Renaissance Italy, and in my case I have fallen in love with the Third Crusade setting of AC. The Crusades have always been a fascinating part of History to me, and to watch Altair meeting _King Richard I the Lionheart_ in person was a fantastic experience.

I don't think of Ezio as simply a monster: To me he is a serial killer disguised as a sexy hero so people will find him likable, and that makes me feel totally repulsed.

No, I am not a fan of Superman type of characters.

Altair is an unstoppable monster when you learn to use him well in combat, but if you make even simple mistakes during a heavy battle it's quite likely that he will get killed. I love his coldness, shallow emotions and very diminished sense of empathy because I am like him in similar ways, but I love Link too, just in different games.

They took the ominous and cold Assassin's Creed and remodeled the concept to make simply yet another hero story, and that's what saddened me so much.

I want to try Connor very soon, let's see what he is like...


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## Philster401 (Jun 24, 2015)

Honestly I think you hit it right on the spot about what the game creators did. They straight out say it is a more relaxed and less series because how people dwlt about the coldhearted killer, Altair. From what I remember though each character fit the story they needed.Ezio is a character that is charismatic because he needs to be able to sway the hearts of the citizens. He also wasn't brought up in the way of assassin's unlike Altair because by the time Ezio became an assassin there was no true assassin base to train assassins. Also his father didn't want Ezio to become an assassin. While Altair grew up as an assassin because of his father brought him up that way. And if you think about it Altair's assassins were quite unassassin like they literally had a huge castle with hundreds upon hundreds if not thousands of assassins. While talking about they talked about the assassins in public. While by the time Ezio came around the assassins were much more of an underground group like they should be like the thieves guild in skyrim.    

Finally it all depends on motive, Ezio wanted revenge which is a very used plot device but also a very good one for his type of character. While Altair um.. actually I don't know what he fought for except to regain his standing with the master and for his honor.


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## Mindfire (Jun 24, 2015)

Well with the guards, the thing is, they're _all_ corrupt. All of them. Every single one. I know it beggars belief, but that's how it is. They close people's shops for no reason, or just so the Borgias can control the land. In some of the missions you happen across them beating up civilians just because they can. I mean, sure they'll intervene in civil disturbances, but I'm not sure that qualifies them as "good". They're such dicks that they'll push you around just for bumping into them accidentally. And they're so petty that if you keep running they will _follow you_ just so they can push you around and tell you to watch where you're going because they're so important. As I see it, the guards are just Borgia thugs. But if that stretches your suspension of disbelief too far, you can always just consider them enemy soldiers, casualties of war and whatnot.

As for the suit, he's an Italian. In Renaissance Italy. Those fashions are reasonably historically accurate. Assassins have to blend in, yes? Well in a society where extravagant and colorful clothes are the norm, what stands out more: a plain, drab garment, or a more stylish outfit that's in keeping with what everyone else is wearing?


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 24, 2015)

Philster, I agree with you that they created Ezio to relax the series, please most of the players and to fit well into the type of story that they wanted for the second game. It's also understandable that he was raised in a way totally different to Altair, so we cannot expect even a remotely similar character.

I still dislike him a lot and wish that they had made a sequel similar to the first AC, though.

From a historical point of view, the real world Assassins did control the Masyaf Castle as their headquarters and the village was their hometown. They were very famous and feared by Saracens and Crusaders alike, and they were known for murdering their targets in daylight and in public places as well (just like the game) so it would have a greater psychological impact.

The difference is that the game's Assassins are a philosophical brotherhood while the historic Assassins were a strictly religious order, and the same is true about the Templar Knights.

@Mindfire: I am not sure, I still need to advance more into AC2 to get to know its Guards better.

So far I have not seen them abusing the civilians, but even though that is part of the game later it's clear that not all of them act like that... and some have tried to defend the people from my abusive Ezio, risking and losing their lives in the process.

If those guards in particular were evil, they would join Ezio instead of trying to stop him.

I accept that Ezio's fans view him as a _Zorro_ or perhaps an _Aguila Roja_ type of character and love him that way. That's what it feels like to play as him, at least. I love Aguila Roja (character from a Spanish TV series) and I understand the feeling, so maybe it's all the sexiness, warmness and fashionable stuff that I dislike about Ezio the most.

The brave Aguila Roja is colder and more serious than Ezio, and yet he sometimes expressed remorse because of his kills.

Sorry, but the Italian setting is no excuse for Ezio's ridiculous outfit. He looks so extravagant that he draws a lot of attention just by walking in the streets of Florence, and I can hear the people around commenting and wondering about him. The guards become suspicious immediately thanks to the crazy suit, as well...

They could have designed a renaissance Assassin suit for Ezio, stylish and everything, but they went for the extravagance in order to make the character more fashionable and sexy.

Altair's outfit is unusual too, but not to the point of drawing attention to himself just because of his looks.

Watch Aguila Roja in battle Here.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 24, 2015)

The clothing is NOT historical.  At all.  It is completely fantasy-inspired and has more of an Asian aesthetic than European.  It fits however with modern tastes of how men SHOULD dress, but in Renaissance Italy, men were more pretty.  They didn't wear boots.  They wore tight pants and high-waisted doublets.  The skirting is Asian, not European on Ezio's doublet, and the cape and belts are way too rugged to be anywhere close to authentic.  That being said, I loved them.  I recreated Ezio's outfit to fence in, and it makes me immediately recognizable on the field.  But it isn't NEAR historical.  Just FYI, I suppose.  Again, the game is a work of fantasy as much as the stories I write that are somewhat historical but mostly just fiction and fantasy.  But to me, that's what makes them fun.


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## Gryphos (Jun 24, 2015)

I think the best thing to do is to stop thinking of Ezio as an Assassin. He's only as much of an Assassin as wearing the hidden blade makes him. Instead think of him as a swashbuckling hero who happens to do most of his work stealthily.

If you want a game about a cold-hearted assassin I would possibly suggest the Hitman series, as well as Dishonored. Ooh, and definitely Mark of the Ninja, held by many to be one of the best stealth games ever made.


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 25, 2015)

Hey Gryphos.

Thanks for your recommendations, but the settings, character and general atmosphere of those games are definitely not for me. It's not that I don't like swashbuckling heroes, my case with AC2 is that, at least in my opinion, it was a disaster to combine that style of character and gameplay with elements from the first game.

It simply does not work for me.

I fell in love not only with Altair as a character, but with the gameplay of AC as well: The big castle, cool historic setting, Altair's small hometown, the harrowing battles and the fact that you have this mysterious and cool boss... and you must present him with good results, because you are the best Assassin that he can count on.

Traveling to a far off city with the clear and precise mission to kill a Target, researching the necessary information by a variety of means to choose from, figuring out the best strategy to make the final kill and then the bells of the city ringing like mad and Altair running on the rooftops while hundreds of Guards search for him...

These elements really made me feel like an Assassin, and AC2 is a completely different thing.


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## Gryphos (Jun 25, 2015)

Sheilawisz said:


> Hey Gryphos.
> 
> Thanks for your recommendations, but the settings, character and general atmosphere of those games are definitely not for me. It's not that I don't like swashbuckling heroes, my case with AC2 is that, at least in my opinion, it was a disaster to combine that style of character and gameplay with elements from the first game.
> 
> ...



That's fair enough. It won't be for everyone. I will say that if you are really attached to the aspects present in the first game, you'll have the same problem you're having with AC2 with AC Brotherhood, Revelations, and even AC3. Black Flag goes full on with the pirate theme, so there's very little assassining. I haven't played Unity, so I can't speak for that. There is another one coming out in the near future, Syndicate, which I'm hopeful of, but ever suspicious of Ubisoft.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 25, 2015)

I agree with that about Black Flag.  You aren't even a real assassin, you steal an assassin's coat and assume his identity in the beginning and only later in the story do the assassins catch up to you and demand an explanation...after you've sort of messed up some of their plans.  If I didn't love sinking ships so much, this game would have been a bust for me.


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 26, 2015)

Thank you everyone for your feedback and valuable points of view.

I'll start playing the universally hated _Assassin's Creed 3_ tomorrow and Rogue within a week, hoping to enjoy some colder characters in North American settings that look really beautiful in every video that I have seen. The ship battles at least sound very attractive, can't wait to shoot cannons and sink some ships like you love to do, Maiden.

It seems that the only way to enjoy these series is to forget the past elements that you enjoyed, and then adapt to the ever changing gameplay presented to us... Then, so be it.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 26, 2015)

Yeah, just wait till you have to harpoon whales...not my favorite part of Black Flag, since I'm sort of...appalled by whaling.


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## Mindfire (Jun 26, 2015)

Assassin's Creed 3 wasn't "universally hated". Despite some of the poor opinions of fans it had great reviews and stellar sales.

In fact, people's biggest complaint about the game seemed to be that Connor wasn't Ezio. lol


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## Trick (Jun 26, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> Yeah, just wait till you have to harpoon whales...not my favorite part of Black Flag, since I'm sort of...appalled by whaling.



Accurate to the time period though. Gotta be honest if your shooting for the historical background.


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 26, 2015)

Actually I don't fancy that virtual whaling at all, poor whales!

I don't want to play _Black Flag_, because I am not attracted to the Pirates stuff and the Caribbean setting in any way. I bought Rogue to experience the sailing and ship battles, in a Northern American scenario with icy waters... and even the Northern Lights! Yeah, that's what I want =)

@Mindfire: It was great to hear good comments about AC3 from Reaver and you, that's why I decided to purchase it.

The critic spoke well of the game indeed, but it was very difficult for me to find good reviews from users amid a sea of hate and despise. You are right, most of the hate is aimed at Connor and not really at the game so I guess that I'll enjoy it.

My new _Exploring Assassin's Creed 3_ thread coming soon!


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## Mindfire (Jun 26, 2015)

I haven't played AC3 yet so no spoilers! Lol. Also, even if you aren't getting Black Flag, I would definitely recommend getting Assassin's Creed 4: Freedom Cry. Originally it was DLC for Black Flag, but now you can get it as a standalone game. It's about Adewale, a former slave who becomes an Assassin and works to free slaves in the Caribbean. I know you weren't too keen on the Caribbean setting, but the slave trade narrative seems like it would have some of that gritty-ness you're looking for.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 26, 2015)

The slave trade was a very minor part of that story (in Black Flag).  In fact, the story was really all over the place.  I think where ACII was very plot line driven, most of Black Flag is just exploring on your own.  You can explore the ship wrecks, go whaling, hunt and skin loads of animals like monkeys (I didn't hunt much either, because I didn't like the wasteful concept of leaving dead animals, skinned on the ground) and of course, sinking ships.  I did a lot of that.  I mean A LOT!!!

I've maxed out my hunter symbols many times and it's sort of like a batting cage, I just sit there sinking stuff and more come along to die.  Oh, and the forts.  I loved hitting the forts.  But again, none of that has anything to do with the relatively short and easy to beat plot.  It's a little disappointing in that respect.  I didn't really like the setting either, just for the record.  Sailing was fun, but the islands were sort of shacks and people doing nothing, just lying around.  Is that what the Caribbean was like?  Poor people lying drunk in the sun?  Not my idea of a good time.  I'd rather be back in Venice.  

I didn't really try AC3.  What happened was after the opening sequence int he opera house, you go to a guy who gives you some advice.  He says, "Now that you have Altair's knowledge and Ezio's skills..." and I hit the power button because I'd never played AC1.  I DIDN'T have Altair's knowledge!  SO I bought that game and started playing it.  My Xbox stopped working, so I was always planning to get another so I could keep playing, but now Phil posted a thing that they're releasing XBOX1 that will play games from 360...so I might have to get that, just so I can finish all my games I really want to play, but can't on the PS4.


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## Mindfire (Jun 26, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> The slave trade was a very minor part of that story (in Black Flag).



It's a much bigger part of the Freedom Cry expansion/DLC. It's the central plot element.


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## Lunaairis (Jun 27, 2015)

Philster401 said:


> Finally it all depends on motive, Ezio wanted revenge which is a very used plot device but also a very good one for his type of character. While Altair um.. actually I don't know what he fought for except to regain his standing with the master and for his honor.



Altair fought for the truth. A man who has nothing-who knows nothing- attempting to make a mark on the world.


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## Mindfire (Jun 27, 2015)

Lunaairis said:


> Altair fought for the truth. A man who has nothing-who knows nothing- attempting to make a mark on the world.



Wait, I thought his whole thing was "Nothing is true, everything is permitted"? In fact, it's his overly broad interpretation of the "everything is permitted" part that gets Altair into trouble at the start of the game. If he believes nothing is true, how can he be fighting for truth?


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## Lunaairis (Jun 27, 2015)

See it was him not paying attention to the first part, that is what gives him a broad interpretation of the second part. He begins to learn nothing is true, from being stabbed and coming back. The Apple sets off his curiosity and with that he begins to realise that everything he knows is not true... Nothing is true. 

*SPOILERS*

 For a man who has nothing beside this order. Can you imagine? Waking up one day and realizing that the reality you live in isn't real?  He was in a child mindset before then. Thinking that he can do no wrong cause he's the best of the best and his life is to kill. The order an Arm and him the Blade.  

Of course he doesn't believe it . The First 3 assassination are him struggling with this. A merchant who terrorizes his employees, A doctor who doesn't heal, but tortures. A slaver who thinks he's right in selling slaves, thinks he is providing favours. They all think they are right in what they do. 

 Altair begins to realize that, if they think they are right, is he wrong? is he wrong in thinking that what he is doing is right? He even tries to talk to the Rafq of Acre about it but is shut down by him. He can't talk to Malik because He knows he did Malik a wrong and there is nothing he can do to fix it.

The second set of assassinations is him realizing no, there is in fact something wrong- he even goes to Al Mualim and demands to know what 'binds' these men. He thinks he is satisfied with the answer. But he quickly learns no, there is something more.

Yet even the enemies of the order know more. Altair is again thrusted into discord about the ordeals. Listen to malik at the beginning of this and then jump to 3:20. listen to Majd Addin,  Unknowingly He is describing Altair's situation.





I like this whole mission cause its just a reflection of Altair's journey spat out by everyone. If he doesn't change his perspective he will have the same fate. 

Each of these men were meant to help the Templars But each were selfish and seeked to conquer the holy land for themselves.  At the end of these missions Altair realizes his selfishnes at the beginning, but he is unsure how to change, he presents his findings to Al Mualim and is trusted with knowing the power of the Apple.


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## Lunaairis (Jun 27, 2015)

The last 3 assassinations bring up the 'Nothing is true' again.  Learning the ignorance of his ways, and again that everything he knows is not true.  So he marches to Jerusalem, where his conversation with Malik expresses his change through his adventures. Malik takes notice.  





Maria pretending to be Robert is what sets him over the edge. He suspects that this all goes deeper, that Al Mualim is still keeping things from him like he has been this whole time. Instead of wielding the tenants like he always has, he goes to Asuf to stop the war before it begins to hear another side of this story. No longer a sheep of the creed, he wants to take charge of this worsening conflict.  He tries to be a diplomat when he speaks to Richard.  Willing to sacrifice himself for there to be peace. A complete change from the cold,selfish killer at the beginning. 

His whole conversation with Richard showing off his understanding of everything he's learned in this short time. He wants peace gained through individuality, not forced through war, fear, or control. So when he comes to Al Mualim and finds he has gone down a selfish road one that Altair has just escaped. Lets not forget to mention that Altair loved Al Mualim like a father, So he doesn't go in trying to kill him first ask questions later. No he goes in asking questions finding out just how corrupt the man has become.

Altair was a selfish boy who at one point followed the creed blindly, killed because he was told to, sought honour when he needed none but turned it all around, and became selfless, learned the truth. Sought wisdom, diplomacy and Peace.


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## Sheilawisz (Jul 10, 2015)

Thank you Luna, for presenting some of the facts that make us like Altair so much.

I continue to play my _Evil Altair_ games (Chase the Citizen, Throw the Citizen, Monster in the Hay, Jerusalem Madness and more) before starting it all over again one of these days, but I have also been playing with Ezio in _Assassin's Creed 2_ and I must say that I am enjoying the game a little better now.

A positive change was that I discovered the ability to change the colors of Ezio's weird Assassin suit.

There are several color styles to choose from, but I decided to give my Ezio a brown and green outfit that I think suits him very well. This has resulted in cooler looks for Ezio, like a unique character (instead of a silly looking dude) and I feel better playing with him at this point.

I am also adapting to the very different atmosphere of this game, and can't wait to travel to Venice.

There was this Assassination that I enjoyed a lot: The target was very afraid of Ezio, so he had isolated himself at the summit of a high tower. I found a way to climb to the top, where several Archers were standing guard. It was cool to grab the archers and just throw them to their deaths, and after that I climbed a little more to slay the target.

My other favorite thing in the game so far is to steal one of those great axes used by the Armored Guards, carry it away (even though it cannot be equipped) find some trouble and use it to slash other guards viciously... Cool =)

I might change the name of this thread to _Exploring Assassin's Creed 2_ very soon.


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## Lunaairis (Jul 10, 2015)

Sheilawisz said:


> ...
> There was this Assassination that I enjoyed a lot: The target was very afraid of Ezio, so he had isolated himself at the summit of a high tower. I found a way to climb to the top, where several Archers were standing guard. It was cool to grab the archers and just throw them to their deaths, and after that I climbed a little more to slay the target...




Okay so that guy (he's in Tuscany right?)  He's the only assassination I can remember from that game. The only reason I remember is because he is giving a speech. When I played I sat through his whole speech. It is something like 3 hours long.


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## themomodbot (Dec 5, 2015)

Ah, Assassin's Creed 2. The most epic and beautiful Assassin's Creed games. 
The story, character, graphic, and music all are memorable. 
Have been playing all of them in the past (AC 2, Brotherhood, and Revelations).


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## Sheilawisz (Dec 6, 2015)

After advancing a good deal into the Venice adventures, I have abandoned Assassin's Creed 2 definitely.

The last part that I played is when Ezio must complete a series of tasks at the Venice Carnival, so he can earn a Mask in order to attend the festivities later. I found this part so pointless and stupid that it was finally too much for me: To hell with Ezio and his adventures, this is not an Assassin game at all.

The same happened already to me with AC3 and AC Rogue.

All of the magic, fierceness and power of the first Assassin's Creed is lost in the sequels. The original, Assassin-centric game was transformed into action and adventure games, in which everything is about earning money so you can spend it in countless ways and engaging into so many different little missions that have little or nothing to do with being an Assassin.

I'll be selling AC2, and I am very happy that I never purchased the rest of Ezio's games.


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## Leo deSouza (Apr 12, 2016)

I never liked this game.


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 18, 2016)

Hello Leo, and first of all Welcome to Mythic Scribes!

It's good to find some people that also think that AC2 is not actually a perfect jewel of a game. For me, it's a great game and very well made but it was completely different to the original concept and gameplay presented in the original Assassin's Creed.

In the original AC we have a true Assassin, you do Assassin work and perform Assassin-y things, while in AC2 Ezio feels more like a swashbuckling hero and adventurer not too different to Link from the _Zelda_ games. Actually AC2 feels very similar to a Zelda game, and the original _You are a professional killer!_ concept was completely erased from the map.

I have already complained too much about this, sorry for sounding negative...

It's just that after playing and completing the original AC I was so deeply in love with the concept and the gameplay that I thought: _Wow, and this is just the start! I am hooked to this series for the rest of my life and it will be incredible!_ And then AC2 turns out to be a completely different thing and I was like... _Whhaaaat the hell happened here?!_

So yeah, sorry everyone for all of my ranting in this thread.


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## DMThaane (Apr 18, 2016)

Sheilawisz said:


> In the original AC we have a true Assassin, you do Assassin work and perform Assassin-y things, while in AC2 Ezio feels more like a swashbuckling hero and adventurer not too different to Link from the _Zelda_ games. Actually AC2 feels very similar to a Zelda game, and the original _You are a professional killer!_ concept was completely erased from the map.



I've seen this criticism before and I must admit I've never really understood it. For me, playing AC1 for the first time, Altair was a terrible assassin. More an incredibly enthusiastic murderer with terrible planning skills, little ability to improvise, and an extraordinarily overdeveloped ability to counter attacks. I'll admit there was more sense of planning, something that didn't return until Unity and Syndicate, but for me, at least, the only game where I've truly felt like an assassin is Dishonored.

That said, AC2 is far from a perfect game. Those ridiculous cut scene quick time events, a few pacing and gameplay problems, forced camera angles during certain free running sequences that can induce rage quitting, and those damn moustache-twirling Templars. AC1 did a lot wrong, especially if you play the PC port, but at least the Templars _believed_ in what they were doing. It took us three games to finally surpass AC1 Templars, although Haytham Kenway was completely worth it.


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 18, 2016)

Hello DMThaane.

Altair is indeed an incredibly enthusiastic murderer, obviously a very dangerous psychopath with very little ability to feel remorse, guilt or compassion for anybody. That's why he is a great Assassin from my point of view, because he is exactly what a real killer would be and not some kind of romantic hero like Ezio.

I disagree with what you said about Altair being a terrible Assassin with little skills to plan and improvise.

Assassin's Creed can be played in both ways: You can intentionally mess everything up and do it the wild way, or you can use stealth and careful planning in order to kill your target by surprise and then escape with little difficulty.

In my first adventure with Altair I did mess many Assassinations up, and I would either get killed or barely escape with my life after a prolonged and unnecessary battle. In one of the Acre missions I dropped into the military meeting at the wrong moment, and I ended up fighting not only the target but also fifteen or so of his Knights!

In another one (also in Acre) I had to chase my target through half of the city with twelve or so Knights dashing after me... And it ended up in yet another massive battle in which I killed them all and the target as well.

However, in my second playthrough of the game I already had a better knowledge of the terrain, what would be the best ways to catch the target by surprise and how to get away safely, and I managed to perform excellent Assassinations without all the hassle and madness of my previous experiences.

Yeah, only Haytham Kenway is as cool a Templar as the Templars of AC1, I love Haytham =)

I'll try to find Dishonored, if you recommend it to me. Also, would you recommend AC Unity and Syndicate? I still do not have a Playstation 4 (I have a PS3) but I'll finally purchase it next month.


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## DMThaane (Apr 19, 2016)

Sheilawisz said:


> Hello DMThaane.
> 
> I disagree with what you said about Altair being a terrible Assassin with little skills to plan and improvise.
> 
> Assassin's Creed can be played in both ways: You can intentionally mess everything up and do it the wild way, or you can use stealth and careful planning in order to kill your target by surprise and then escape with little difficulty.



Certainly there's a lot open to interpretation and some of it comes down to things like gameplay and story segregation (Altair probably didn't spend half his time counter attacking guards in alleyways) and necessary gameplay contrivances (poisoning a meal and than hearing about your target's death a week later is decent tradecraft but makes for a dull game) but part of Altair will always be that man who charged Robert de Sable and got one guy killed and another maimed. He's far too willing to go straight at his targets and than rely on his impressive skills as a killer to get him out of trouble. This happens with several of his targets regardless of approach. If Altair were a poorer fighter his tactics would pretty quickly get him killed. This doesn't necessarily make him a bad assassin but it does keep him from being the kind of assassin that left a poisoned cake on Saladin's chest as a warning without ever being detected. I've always had a fondness for the latter.




> However, in my second playthrough of the game I already had a better knowledge of the terrain, what would be the best ways to catch the target by surprise and how to get away safely, and I managed to perform excellent Assassinations without all the hassle and madness of my previous experiences.



This was pretty much my experience of my second playthrough. I was more thorough in scouting and formed more distinct plans that I successfully carried through about 80% of the time. That said, while my plan where mostly successful they weren't ideal as they were restricted too much by the limitations of the game (and, I could argue, the limitations of Altair's approach to his work) and didn't permit the ghost style tactics I prefer.



> I'll try to find Dishonored, if you recommend it to me. Also, would you recommend AC Unity and Syndicate? I still do not have a Playstation 4 (I have a PS3) but I'll finally purchase it next month.



Unity is... problematic. A classic example of a game released before it was finished and it butchers the French Revolution. I could honestly only recommend it to die hard AC fans who could enjoy it in spite of its many flaws. I played it through once, and once was enough, and while I'm sure it's _possible_ to play that game stealthily I could never be bothered. I'd get hooked on a piece of furniture, or teleported up a building, or seen through a wall and then I'd just start shooting people in the face. 

Syndicate is Unity without most of the rough edges and, judging from your criticisms of ACII, could actually be a good buy. There's a greater focus on stealth, multiple ways to complete assassinations and some nice nods to ACI such as how they do the death conversations. There's also two protagonists, Jacob and Evie Fry, with Jacob being the fun brawler of the Ezio or Edward Kenway mould and Evie being more the stealthy professional, so there's some character variety there. Also while you don't _need_ to complete the bonus objectives they almost always push towards a stealthy playstyle so I was able to nab them all on my first run through. Most gameplay videos focus on combat but there's a good stealth game there and I think the plot actually addresses some of your criticisms of Ezio's style over substance approach. There's some motion on the modern world plotline but its pretty easy to ignore if you're not into that part or do some catch up if you are.

I honestly cannot be unbiased when it comes to Dishonored, I've put 175 hours into it, purchased copies for friends to get them hooked, and I'd honestly recommend the game to a hermit crab without even asking if it had a computer or console. That said, Dishonored is a very different game. It's first person, much more linear, with a more 'kinetic' feel and with the focus being on open play style instead of open world. You can move through like the horseman of death cutting down everyone in your path and feeding them to rats (literally) but you can also sneak through like a shadow, never being seen even by the targets you neutralise. There's actually an achievement for doing the latter. The story is a bit of a take it or leave it. I actually quite like it but I can understand why some people don't. Most gameplay videos are about exciting or creative ways to kill people but there should be some stealth ones out there if you want to try and get a deeper sense of it or decide if you want to wait for a sale. If you do get it, get the Game of the Year Edition. It barely costs more and the story DLC is easily worth it for gameplay alone.


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 20, 2016)

Hi again Thaane, and thanks very much for your recommendations.

I'll definitely get Dishonored, you have made me very curious about it. What you describe does sound like the kind of game that I would want to play to have a rest from Garden Warfare sometimes, and to unleash some fury and devastation in a safe manner. Also, thanks for warning me about AC Unity...

I was considering to purchase Unity because the combat looks really great in Youtube videos, but I have already read too many reviews from players that complain about the endless glitches of an unfinished game. I'll get AC Syndicate instead, but that will have to wait at least three or four months after I get the PS4 itself, heh heh!

Now, back to Altair:

It's true that in part he will always be remembered as the idiot that messed up that mission at the start, but we needed the stupid and overconfident Altair so he could learn and grow during the adventure. For me it was incredibly satisfying to watch Altair learning and questioning his Master as time passed, and at the end he is a much wiser man.

I have realized that a vast majority of players complained about the heavy use of Counterattacks in the combat of AC1, and it's true that they are a very important skill to learn well. The problem is that if you keep your guard up all the time waiting for the attack to counter it, the most skillful soldiers will simply break the guard and deliver a sword blow on Altair's head.

Instead of using Counterattack all the time, I mastered the Combo Kills so I could combine them with the Counters and the Grabs. When you combine all of Altair's skills in combat then the battles are incredible, to the point that it became like a drug to me and I would attack large squadrons of guards and soldiers simply to have fun killing them all.

Yes, it's true that with some of the Targets Altair is forced to get into a terrible fight, no matter how stealthy you play.

Hey, do you know if there is official information about how tall Robert de Sable is? That character seemed to me at least a head taller than Altair, so I calculate that he is 2.04 meters tall at least.


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## DMThaane (Apr 22, 2016)

Hey, any copy of Dishonored I can flog is a win. I was one of the few fans the developer (Arkane Studios) picked up when it made Dark Messiah so I kind of want them to keep making games I enjoy.



Sheilawisz said:


> Now, back to Altair:
> 
> It's true that in part he will always be remembered as the idiot that messed up that mission at the start, but we needed the stupid and overconfident Altair so he could learn and grow during the adventure. For me it was incredibly satisfying to watch Altair learning and questioning his Master as time passed, and at the end he is a much wiser man.



Certainly Altair undergoes some decent character development but it's interesting to note that he makes very similar mistakes against Robert de Sable, the slaver Talal, the Merchant King Abu'l Nuqoud, and the decoy Maria Thorpe. On each occasion he engages prematurely, without establishing control of the ground or the engagement, and hands the initiative over to his opponents who then botch the job of killing him. This is a pattern that continues throughout his growth as a person. He also does this against Robert de Sable at Arsuf and against Al Mualim but in both cases his hand is forced by circumstance.

I think this is a key place where Altair and Ezio's tactics differ. Altair plans out an initial approach, goes straight for the target–often in a public way that makes a statement–and then fades away into the city. Its a decent playbook but it has its failings, particularly when the initial strike fails or when the attack is anticipated. Ezio, on the other hand, prefers a sort of shock and awe approach where he generates initial chaos and then out-adapts his opponents. Ezio's plans are more disruptive and work under just about any circumstances but they alert the target and are difficult to coordinate, with Ezio mostly making it up as he goes along.



> Instead of using Counterattack all the time, I mastered the Combo Kills so I could combine them with the Counters and the Grabs. When you combine all of Altair's skills in combat then the battles are incredible, to the point that it became like a drug to me and I would attack large squadrons of guards and soldiers simply to have fun killing them all.



I'll admit that I've rarely experimented in combat in any Assassin's Creed game. I don't actually enjoy that kind of third person combo-focused combat so instead I try to win all my battles before they really have a chance to start. This approach exacerbates the flaws in Altair's style (and AC1 as a game) more than most of the others, I think, which is why I'm more critical of him as an assassin. This approach also failed in Unity which is why bullet to the face and skirmishing tactics became my main recourse in that game.



> Hey, do you know if there is official information about how tall Robert de Sable is? That character seemed to me at least a head taller than Altair, so I calculate that he is 2.04 meters tall at least.



I can't find anything official but Altair is listed at about 1.8 and Robert has some height on him so around 2 metres or slightly north seems a good bet. Problem is most images have him or Altair standing at angles or slightly stooped, making it hard to estimate.


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## Mindfire (Apr 22, 2016)

A small warning about Dishonored: it can get a little repetitive, and doing things the stealthy way can be very difficult. The game almost punishes you for trying to avoid fights. I got fed up with it and quit a few missions in. Just be aware that the game will require patience. More patience than I had.


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## DMThaane (Apr 23, 2016)

Mindfire said:


> A small warning about Dishonored: it can get a little repetitive, and doing things the stealthy way can be very difficult. The game almost punishes you for trying to avoid fights. I got fed up with it and quit a few missions in. Just be aware that the game will require patience. More patience than I had.



A trick I picked up back in the Baldur's Gate 2 days: when the gameplay starts feeling samey, do a save and just start killing everything around you with everything you've got. Reload once dead/successful. Nothing breaks up a long series of methodical stealth sections quite like a non-canon murder spree.

That said, with the right powers and tactics you can waltz through a ghost playthrough of Dishonored.


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## Mindfire (Apr 25, 2016)

DMThaane said:


> A trick I picked up back in the Baldur's Gate 2 days: when the gameplay starts feeling samey, do a save and just start killing everything around you with everything you've got. Reload once dead/successful. Nothing breaks up a long series of methodical stealth sections quite like a non-canon murder spree.
> 
> That said, with the right powers and tactics you can waltz through a ghost playthrough of Dishonored.



I feel like if I have to artificially break up the monotony of the game, then it's a bad game. Or at least not well designed.


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## DMThaane (Apr 25, 2016)

Mindfire said:


> I feel like if I have to artificially break up the monotony of the game, then it's a bad game. Or at least not well designed.



I don't want to turn this into the 'let's debate Dishonored' thread so I'll just say that your experience is by far the minority. Everyone will encounter a popular game they don't enjoy (I think Half-Life 2 is one of the poorer shooters I've played and the admiration it receives genuinely confuses me) and there's only so far you can take buyer beware before it gets ridiculous.

And I go on murder sprees because _I_ get bored easily. It's not the game's responsibility to cater to my needs. It is my responsibility to find playstyles that suit me, in games that suit me, that I've usually modded to suit me.


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## Mindfire (Apr 25, 2016)

DMThaane said:


> I don't want to turn this into the 'let's debate Dishonored' thread so I'll just say that your experience is by far the minority. Everyone will encounter a popular game they don't enjoy (I think Half-Life 2 is one of the poorer shooters I've played and the admiration it receives genuinely confuses me) and there's only so far you can take buyer beware before it gets ridiculous.
> 
> And I go on murder sprees because _I_ get bored easily. It's not the game's responsibility to cater to my needs. It is my responsibility to find playstyles that suit me, in games that suit me, that I've usually modded to suit me.



Perhaps. Maybe Dishonored just doesn't suit me. But I've played other stealth Games, like Mark of the Ninja, which arguably requires greater patience and precision than Dishonored, and yet I really loved it. Go figure. In retrospect, I think what kills Dishonored for me is the fact that if you want to get the good ending then you _have_ to avoid killing anyone. Which means that if you fail stealth and get forced into combat, you can still succeed at the mission but you've jeopardized your chances of getting the ending you want.


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## Reaver (Apr 25, 2016)

The thing that bothers me about the first few AC games is the lack of stealth. In AC1, you can blend in with monks and hide in haystacks, but that's about it. In the Ezio trilogy (AC2, Brotherhood, Revelations) you could make stealth kills but only when crouched behind a corner. AC3 improved on this and Black Flag nailed it with the ability to shoot guns, poison or sleep darts from a hidden position.

I've thought about giving Dishonored a try, but I don't play FPS games. Not since the original Castle Wolfenstein (1981) and the original Doom (1993). Halo (2001) was the last FPS I've played. My screen name? A LITTLE GIRL. 

That's right... Whenever I killed another player it said: "You've just been killed by A LITTLE GIRL".


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## DMThaane (Apr 26, 2016)

Mindfire said:


> Perhaps. Maybe Dishonored just doesn't suit me. But I've played other stealth Games, like Mark of the Ninja, which arguably requires greater patience and precision than Dishonored, and yet I really loved it. Go figure. In retrospect, I think what kills Dishonored for me is the fact that if you want to get the good ending then you _have_ to avoid killing anyone. Which means that if you fail stealth and get forced into combat, you can still succeed at the mission but you've jeopardized your chances of getting the ending you want.



I haven't finished Mark of the Ninja but from what I've played they are very different games that reward different playstyles and will play to different tastes. Dishonored has more in common with the Thief franchise or Deus Ex. You can also kill quite a few people in Dishonored and get the good ending. I've seen 20% of the game population thrown around but I don't think anyone has tested it clinically. I know I've killed a lot of people and barely scraped through with the good ending.



Reaver said:


> The thing that bothers me about the first few AC games is the lack of stealth. In AC1, you can blend in with monks and hide in haystacks, but that's about it. In the Ezio trilogy (AC2, Brotherhood, Revelations) you could make stealth kills but only when crouched behind a corner. AC3 improved on this and Black Flag nailed it with the ability to shoot guns, poison or sleep darts from a hidden position.



They attempted to improve stealth again in Unity and mostly succeeded, with the work carrying through into Syndicate. Before then I used to joke about the fact that the stealthiest I've felt was playing as Edward Kenway, a brash pirate who doesn't even start out as an Assassin. The AC franchise is an action adventure series that certainly likes stealth but seems rather hesitant to actually commit to it.



> I've thought about giving Dishonored a try, but I don't play FPS games. Not since the original Castle Wolfenstein (1981) and the original Doom (1993). Halo (2001) was the last FPS I've played. My screen name? A LITTLE GIRL.
> 
> That's right... Whenever I killed another player it said: "You've just been killed by A LITTLE GIRL".



I developed a love of first person stealth games some years back, to the point where I played Metro Last Light, the later Far Cry's, and even the recent Wolfenstein as stealthily as possible. I enjoy the visceral immersion of FPS games, of _being_ the soldier instead of just controlling the soldier. Third person never really has the same feel. As for multiplayer, I've never favoured competitive but I was practically raised on the original Ghost Recon and Raven Shield co op. I started using Deathman as my screen name when I started reliably topping kill counts.


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 28, 2016)

After all, I continued playing _Ezio's Adventure_ aka Assassin's Creed 2 and I completed it.

The ending was good and worth playing the entire game, even though I am not very likely to ever perform a second playthrough. I like how Ezio looks and acts more mature after many years have passed, he seems less noxious now and probably I should give Brotherhood and Revelations a chance.

I am also on the verge of finishing AC3, but the Plants keep distracting me too much!

I think that I already shared this with you at some point of this thread, but I wanted to say it again: There is something that I find quite funny about Ezio, and that is how he is supposed to be such a good guy. Every time that I kill an innocent person I get the warning _Ezio did not kill civilians_, but the game does not complain at all when I beat people up and steal all their money!

So Ezio did not kill civilians, but he was okay with beating people (even women!) and stealing from them.

I think that Ezio might only look and act like a nice guy, but deep inside he is just as twisted and cold blooded as Altair. I wish the game had presented Ezio like that since the start instead of the Flynn Rider-like character that he is at the beginning of the game, because in that case I would have never ended up hating him so much.

To be fair, there is something that amuses me in Altair too:

I often think how it was possible for Altair to fall for the Decoy at the final mission of Jerusalem. I mean, as soon as Maria Thorpe shows up at the Funeral it should have been obvious for Altair that Robert de Sable was not really there... I calculate Maria to be 5'7'' while Robert is probably 6'8'', so there is a huge difference in size.

Also, during their later fight Maria's screams and cries are those of a woman... And Altair was still thinking that he was fighting Robert de Sable? I admit that I love the moment when Altair finally removes Maria's helmet and cries out _What sorcery is this?!_, but it's quite unbelievable that this came to happen.

That scene is perhaps the funniest moment in all of Assassin's Creed 1 =)


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