# "Anachronistic" Technology in a Fantasy Setting



## Devor (Nov 17, 2012)

I'm reassessing some of the worldbuilding I'd thought I finished a while ago, and I keep asking myself if I'm going far enough in terms of the technological capabilities of the society.

What sort of technology do we see in fantasy that stand out as "cool" and appropriate, even though it would strictly be anachronistic?

I'm not asking about steampunk technology, which stands on its own, and I'm not asking about guns, which were discussed heavily in another thread.  I'm asking what kind of realistic technology - like greenhouses and hot air balloons - you've seen or used in a typical medieval, swords-and-sorcery-type story, and what did you think of it?


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## Ankari (Nov 17, 2012)

In Steven Erikson's _Malazan Book of the Fallen,_ he introduced explosives and Greek fire.  I loved them.  In R. Scott Bakker's _Warrior-Prophet,_ it wasn't so much as technology as the level of knowledge that blew me away.  The MC studied each facial muscle and how they worked when under a certain mood/motive.  He could accurately "read faces" like you see in modern crime solving TV shows.


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## Saigonnus (Nov 17, 2012)

The "voyage of Jerle Shannara" had a magical ship that still used sails for forward propulsion, but a magical force that allowed it to fly using crystals or some such. The quest discovered an ancient machine like a computer that had security systems and the like still running after centuries of being "idle". The system was complete with robotic sentries and things like that so basically anything goes when it comes to incorporating technology into a fantasy novel.


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## Telcontar (Nov 17, 2012)

So long as you have a reason for why it exists at that time in your world, it isn't anachronistic. Anachronism applies only to the real world. 

The thing to watch out for is when you introduce some technology but don't sufficiently explain how it came to be invented before some other tech that, in the real world, preceded it. For instance, creating a world that has siege engines if it doesn't have castles or high walls. Doesn't mean it can't be done thought.


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## wordwalker (Nov 17, 2012)

Some non-modern tech that can spice up a world:

Heliographs (messages by flashing mirror -- could be organized to keep a whole kingdom in the loop)
Printing, and established libraries, news systems, and even schools
Medical knowledge


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## Darkblade (Nov 18, 2012)

As long as it's invention can be justified within the world you created then there is no Anachronism. Of course to be able to do that properly be prepared to research the offending science down to the micron. It's probably not enough to know how it works but also how people used to think it worked before we were able to better explain it with finer sciences. Things like natural medicines are a good example of this in practice. What we didn't know was anti-bodies, anti-bacterial agents and the like centuries ago we attributed to more mystical causes. 

You can apply that line of thinking to things like Greenhouses (the mystical energy from the sun infuses itself into the plants better when it can't return to it's source), hot air balloons (flame scares the air into moving upwards) and the like. Although those are bad examples drawn from the top of my head instead of any real research effort.


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## psychotick (Nov 18, 2012)

Hi,

There's vast quantities of stuff that you can chuck into medieval fantasy. Greenhouses certainly. All that you need is glass, and it's been around a long time. And even if you don't want guns, you can still have rockets. The Chinese invented fireworks something like two thousand years ago. Concrete was invented by the Romans and that if someone had thought to reinforce it with steel, also ancient, could have created a huge building boom. And things like windmills and waterwheels and aquaducts are ancient. Just google something like medieval technology and you'll be surprised. And then for variety take a look at Da Vinci's stuff. Much of it could not have worked given the state of technology back then, but its fantasy, so why not.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Nov 19, 2012)

Frankly, I've found that we often underestimate how far back certain inventions go. Stuff like plumbing, water clocks, semaphore communication systems, concrete, advanced forms of medicine... A lot of technology was either available much earlier than we think, or could have been available of someone just got around to having the idea sooner.

You really only have to answer the question: "Is it feasable that these people would have the knowledge. resources and industry to produce this particular technology?" If the answer is yes, go right ahead.



psychotick said:


> And then for variety take a look at Da Vinci's stuff. Much of it could not have worked given the state of technology back then, but its fantasy, so why not.



A lot of da Vinci's inventions did in fact work just fine - people have actually built them with historical tools and materials. We're talking stuff like a rigid 187 pound parachute, or a functional diving suit. 

The thing is, da Vinci didn't want people to use his inventions for evil, so he deliberatelly put mistakes into his schematics hoping anyone who tried would it wrong and discard the results.


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## Devor (Nov 19, 2012)

Thanks guys,

But does anyone have a few specific ideas of what kind of technology fits seamlessly with a typical medieval setting?  Stuff like maybe Barbed Wire or Hang Gliders?


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## psychotick (Nov 19, 2012)

Hi,

Hang gliders no. Da Vincy I think designed one but I don't think it ever flew. But medieval flight, think balloons. And also I'm not sure if it's true or just a novel I read somewhere, but large kites with men hanging from them.

Barbed wire, I can't see why it wouldn't fit in any error where chain mail had been invented, but I don't recall it being used in those days.

Best way we can help is if you give us some specific ideas of tech you want to use, and ask if it's conceivable. Or else ask how someone would deal with a particular problem back then through technology. Also think about the tech tree from Civ, which may give you some ideas.

Cheers, Greg.


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## FatCat (Nov 19, 2012)

Depends, what are you trying to do? Are any specific tech items central to your plot, or are you trying to up the 'cool factor' of your setting? To be honest, I find it rather odd that on a fantasy writers forum there are so many questions as to the probability of certain aspects in a story. I understand the desire to have a seamless technological setting, but in the end almost anything can be written into a story with some sort of logical explanation, whether it be magic or some rogue genius. If there's an element that you want to include, but find it may be a bit outlandish for your setting, then tone it down or disregard it. But honestly, if it is cool and you can include it in some logical way, do it and don't second guess.


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## wordwalker (Nov 19, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> Frankly, I've found that we often underestimate how far back certain inventions go. Stuff like plumbing, water clocks, semaphore communication systems, concrete, advanced forms of medicine... A lot of technology was either available much earlier than we think, or could have been available of someone just got around to having the idea sooner.
> 
> You really only have to answer the question: "Is it feasable that these people would have the knowledge. resources and industry to produce this particular technology?" If the answer is yes, go right ahead.



Plus, how many people could *afford* it, and so how much market was there for craftsmen learning to make more than a few of them?

The most amazing technology might just be a modern-like economy, with enough food, homes, and jobs for other inventions to flourish. A lot of today's fantasies seem closer to this prosperity than to Tolkien, so think what that would lead to even if steam engines and other "industrial tech" never worked.


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## Caged Maiden (Nov 20, 2012)

I know it's not exactly what you're looking for, but often I use modern laws with a medieval twist, and especially medicine.  I would hate to think about writing a world where healing was really done by balancing humours.. 

I think barbed wire would be feasible, but most people would probably use dogs.  In my world, I use magical wards to protect buildings, but of course, that relies on magic.  I like the idea of using unusual technology, and I have to agree with most other posts, that if it's feasible, you should be able to get away with it.  I think we covered the greenhouse thing a while back, and in my world, I tend to write pretty advanced stuff like that.  But, I keep it reasonable.  So for instance, while the big cities have elaborate plumbing under public baths and johns (because plumbing existed long ago in many places), it would be unreasonable for a village cottage to have running water or anything other than a primitive outhouse.

I love the idea of hot air balloons.  Perhaps it's just because I live in Albuquerque, but balloons are a way of life out here, and I can just imagine the sort of awesomeness it would be for medieval people to have such a thing.  I'd love to read a story which explores little-used but plausible technology.

I draw on a lot of historical resources when I write, and it's really amazing when you discover how truly advanced some things were before the knowledge was lost.  I mean Romans had a lot of things that later Europe didn't, and Asia and the Middle East was much more advanced than Europe for centuries.  I borrow things from all over, thinking, it's not implausible that a lot of modern living can be accomplished with medieval tools.  After all, necessity is the mother of invention, and if your people need things, they will find a way to make it work.


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## Devor (Nov 20, 2012)

wordwalker said:


> The most amazing technology might just be a modern-like economy, with enough food, homes, and jobs for other inventions to flourish. A lot of today's fantasies seem closer to this prosperity than to Tolkien, so think what that would lead to even if steam engines and other "industrial tech" never worked.



This is somewhat what I'm trying to do.  Take out electricity, take out gunpowder, be realistic with steam, put together a strong economy, and fast forward five hundred years.  What develops?  What wouldn't?

There are a handful of technological advances which have to be included for my setting to work.  I'm fine with those.  I'm just wondering if I'm missing any outlying technological advances which might reasonably come with them.


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## Steerpike (Nov 20, 2012)

Devor:

This is sort of a tangent to your question, but one problem I don't see addressed a lot in fantasy with steam-based technology, especially when that technology has been in place in the world for hundreds of years, is why there is no electricity. Electricity is a natural phenomenon, so any society that has enough of a scientific mind to construct steam technology would at least be looking into it, in my mind. In the real world, steam engines (such as on locomotives) were used to generate electricity. Once you have any kind of "engine" it seems a relatively short step, technologically speaking, to some kind of electricity generation.

Of course, in any given fantasy world you can do whatever you want, but I've always hoped to see at least a bit of an explanation as to why society failed to make the small hop to at least some electrical power when technology like steam has been in place for a few centuries.


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## Devor (Nov 20, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Of course, in any given fantasy world you can do whatever you want, but I've always hoped to see at least a bit of an explanation as to why society failed to make the small hop to at least some electrical power when technology like steam has been in place for a few centuries.



The issue, of course, is that electricity takes us into a modern setting.  I want the technology to feel as "fantastic" to a reader as the magic, and I think you lose that feel when you bring in electricity and it starts to feel like there's a specific tech-time setting.  Plus, electricity opens too many new doors.

As for an in-game explanation, how would you provide one?  _Bob always wondered why the power of lightning couldn't be channeled through wires across the country to power a lightbulb . . ._  For the most part, the explanation would be more out of place than the tech.

I only mentioned steam for completion's sake.  I'm not really using steam.

((edit))  Also, the steam engine _was_, in fact, around for over a thousand years before electricity.  The pressure from the steam turns the parts; it doesn't necessarily generate electricity.

Engine =/= Generator.


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## Steerpike (Nov 20, 2012)

Working in the explanation would be tricky. You wouldn't reference in terms of the absence of electricity, but instead the presence of such things as would make it likely that electrical development would be delayed or never come about.

I know steam devices have been around for a very long time, but when is the first time you actually get a useful steam engine that is used to produce work rather than as some sort of curiosity? Late 1600s? 1700? I may be off by a little bit, but I think that's pretty close. If it is 1700, then you have, what, a little over a hundred years to electric motors? Not that the two have to go hand in hand, but steam technology evidences a scientifically-minded culture, to some extent, so I feel like in works where steam technology has been around and in actual use, to do work, for hundreds of years, there should be some rationale as to why scientific development either went stagnant or limited itself to steam technologies.


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## Devor (Nov 20, 2012)

I don't think that has to be so true, Steerpike, because the two technologies aren't really that similar.  Generators require experiments in chemistry and magnetism, while a steam engine is straightforward engineering.  I don't see it as hard to imagine why mechanical motion might develop faster, comparatively, than electromagnetism.

But that's not really what this thread is supposed to be about. I'm not even using steam power.

((edit))

Going back to the original question, do you have examples of some "modern" technology that would fit in an otherwise medieval setting?


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## CupofJoe (Nov 20, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Of course, in any given fantasy world you can do whatever you want, but I've always hoped to see at least a bit of an explanation as to why society failed to make the small hop to at least some electrical power when technology like steam has been in place for a few centuries.


A shortage or absence of copper might be enough. Steel and iron will conduct electricity but not well compared to copper. And if copper isn't available then you would have to use gold and silver instead and that would make it very expensive... just a thought...


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## Zero Angel (Nov 20, 2012)

This thread has made me realize something about my steampunk setting that I never noticed before...there's no steam! GAH!



My steampunk setting uses lightning towers to harness electricity and uses the lightning tech for everything. It boggles my mind that I have been considering this steampunk for so long...I mean, I still consider it steampunk, but it surprises me that I didn't notice the lack of steam...


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## Steerpike (Nov 20, 2012)

Electropunk?


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## Zero Angel (Nov 20, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Electropunk?



Yeah! or lightningpunk!


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## wordwalker (Nov 20, 2012)

Devor said:


> The issue, of course, is that electricity takes us into a modern setting.  I want the technology to feel as "fantastic" to a reader as the magic, and I think you lose that feel when you bring in electricity and it starts to feel like there's a specific tech-time setting.  Plus, electricity opens too many new doors.
> 
> As for an in-game explanation, how would you provide one?



Another anti-electricity plot is in however magic works. Maybe any significant electricity scrambles magic (but of course that's not a barrier, it's a choice-- or an anti-magic weapon), or tends to pool into lightning elementals, or the laws of magic just say electricity doesn't flow well in whatever way seems like it's part of your magic system rather than an add-on.


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## ThinkerX (Nov 20, 2012)

I pointed this out on one of the other 'technology' threads, but:

It's not just a matter of ability, but inclination when it comes to tech.  The roman artisans were good enough to where they could have built enough technological items to constitute a sort of industrial revolution - but Rome was built on slave labor, and the slave owners saw technology as a direct threat to their wealth and status.  Talking about contraptions ranging right up to crude steam engines here, and complex geared mechanisms.  The greek philosophers *knew* alot of their ideas could be directly applied to real world engineering mechanical issues, but found the very thought to be horrifying - it destroyed the 'purity' of the ideas, I suppose you could call it.

That said, assuming a competent artisan class on the ancient greek / roman level, combined with some capable scholarship, at least the following becomes feasible:

1) crude steam engines - stationary, probably used as pumps, or maybe to run elevator type mechanisms, or even power tools of sorts.

2) Windmills and waterwheels - as pumps, and for mill work.  

3) crude submarines - some early experiments here go back to the 1600's, and the ancients made use of diving bells.

4) Signal towers - either heliographs or semaphores, or failing that go with blinking lights at night.  Very usefull.

5) Bicycle.  This is something that if it had been concieved of in Roman times, it could have been built and widely used.  Think leather belt instead of chain, solid wheels.  Very heavy and clunky by todays standards, but given the excellent quality of the Roman road network, it would still let people travel 40-50 miles a day, easy.  In my main world, it was developed for military purposes and 'went public' immediately afterwards.

6) balloons.  Hang gliders *could* work, if the builder had the right materials AND the knowledge, either from experimentation, or from consulting the appropriate natural philosopher.  Range would be fairly limited, though.

7) larger clockwork mechanisms.


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## psychotick (Nov 21, 2012)

Hi,

Hero's steam engine wasn't really what we'd call a steam engine. It could do no practical work, and really just explored the principle that jets of steam could propely things.

Aeolipile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In order to make a steam engine really work you need a complete design, including a way of capturing the kinetic energy of the turbine in this case, and converting it into work (pistons, valves and cranks etc). And of course you need some fairly advanced metallurgy, good steel, because the pressures in a boiler are quite large.

Cheers, Greg.


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## ThinkerX (Nov 21, 2012)

> Hero's steam engine wasn't really what we'd call a steam engine. It could do no practical work, and really just explored the principle that jets of steam could propely things.



Still a starting point.  And there are hints of other steam mechanisms used as 'Temple Wonders'.  It's just the way that society was set up, they *couldn't* be used for much else without engendering social chaos.


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## Zero Angel (Nov 21, 2012)

wordwalker said:


> Another anti-electricity plot is in however magic works. Maybe any significant electricity scrambles magic (but of course that's not a barrier, it's a choice-- or an anti-magic weapon), or tends to pool into lightning elementals, or the laws of magic just say electricity doesn't flow well in whatever way seems like it's part of your magic system rather than an add-on.


In my tech vs magick setting, when magick came back into the universe it once again occupied the "space between", the "universal medium", the "fifth element" area of the cosmos and as a result radio transmissions and wireless transfer became next to impossible. It can still be accomplished with a massively power-intensive pulse of energy to "clear the air", but because of the energy involved, this is rarely used. Instead, direct lines are. Unfortunately, this means that the terrannean empire rarely communicates with the space empire. Also, it means that the direct lines between olympias (cities) are a tempting target for terrorists / rebels. 

Plus in any tech setting with magick, you have to look out for gremlins!


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## Mindfire (Nov 21, 2012)

Assassin's Creed put a wrist mounted semiautomatic pistolette in Renaissance Italy. Anything can be believable.

And yes, it is a semiautomatic. How else can you explain the fact that Connor has to tediously reload his pistols and musket after every shot, while all Ezio has to do is buy some new ammo and pop it in?


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