# Sanderson saves the Wheel of Time



## Steerpike (Oct 20, 2012)

I stopped reading the books around book 9 and took to listening to them on CD. They seemed to lose focus and I didn't enjoy reading them. Just started book 12, the first one completed by Sanderson, and so far I have to say it is a big improvement. Well done.


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## Leif Notae (Oct 20, 2012)

Never read any of them, I've heard mixed things about Sanderson taking it over. Then again, I really don't like Sanderson so that might be the reason why I'll never touch the WoT series. What did he do to make it better?


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## Ankari (Oct 20, 2012)

Leif Notae said:


> Never read any of them, I've heard mixed things about Sanderson taking it over. Then again, I really don't like Sanderson so that might be the reason why I'll never touch the WoT series. What did he do to make it better?



He cut a lot of the fat from the book.  Jordan, from books 5 through 10, laid the description on thick.  It got to the point that I could skip a page and not miss a thing.


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## Mindfire (Oct 20, 2012)

Ankari said:


> He cut a lot of the fat from the book.  Jordan, from books 5 through 10, laid the description on thick.  It got to the point that I could skip a page and not miss a thing.



I will read the Wheel of Time when they make abridged (fat trimmed) versions of the non-Sanderson books.


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## Leif Notae (Oct 20, 2012)

Ankari said:


> He cut a lot of the fat from the book.  Jordan, from books 5 through 10, laid the description on thick.  It got to the point that I could skip a page and not miss a thing.



I've read some Sanderson and he suffers from fattening his books too. Does this mean Jordan really was that bad?


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## Ankari (Oct 20, 2012)

Leif Notae said:


> I've read some Sanderson and he suffers from fattening his books too. Does this mean Jordan really was that bad?



Oh yeah.  Books 5 through 10 could have been condensed into 3 books.


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## Mindfire (Oct 20, 2012)

Ankari said:


> Oh yeah.  Books 5 through 10 could have been condensed into 3 books.



It needs to be done.


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## Leif Notae (Oct 20, 2012)

Well, the man WAS dying. I might get a little long winded if I knew the clock was ticking faster than normal.


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## Mindfire (Oct 20, 2012)

Leif Notae said:


> Well, the man WAS dying. I might get a little long winded if I knew the clock was ticking faster than normal.



Really? I'd think most people would get more concise if they knew their time was up.


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## Ireth (Oct 20, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Really? I'd think most people would get more concise if they knew their time was up.



Seconded. I'd want to get the story DONE before I went, not just get as many words written as possible.


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## Leif Notae (Oct 21, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Really? I'd think most people would get more concise if they knew their time was up.



This is why life is amazing. Some people want to snap through things and others want to squeeze out every detail until they die.


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## Sheriff Woody (Oct 22, 2012)

I've never actually read any Wheel of Time books, apart from the Prologue of Eye of the World, but it's definitely near the top of my lengthy to-read list.

Not sure if I want to go all the way, though. At a dozen+ installments, it's quite the commitment.


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## Kaellpae (Oct 26, 2012)

I'll always be a fan of the series. I admit that they get a little dry in the middle, but I like all the little details, except for the girls' point of view. A female reader might say the same about the male point of view in the series, but I don't need to know about every little frill on each dress that Nynaeve or Elayne sees. I don't like Egwene as a person, but she's an intriguing character especially in the later books.

Sanderson saving the series though? The last three books was supposed to be one book when Jordan was writing the series. I know with Jordan's passing they'll want to milk the series for what they can, but Sanderson has made 3 books out of what Jordan considered to be one book. I enjoy both author's writing and Sanderson picked up a bit of action, but they e both got their faults and both have added good things for the series.


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## Steerpike (Oct 26, 2012)

Yeah and Jordan said the whole series would only be six books long when he started it. Sanderson went off of Jordan's notes and outlines. There's no way Jordan would have finished that series in one final book unless they went ahead and published a 3000 page book. Sanderson actually moves all the action forward instead of stalling it like Jordan did in the last few he wrote.


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## Kaellpae (Oct 26, 2012)

I don't think I would have liked the series ad much if it was only 6 books, but like I said, I like all the details. Really makes me feel like I'm in the world.


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## myrddin173 (Oct 27, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Yeah and Jordan said the whole series would only be six books long when he started it. Sanderson went off of Jordan's notes and outlines. There's no way Jordan would have finished that series in one final book unless they went ahead and published a 3000 page book. Sanderson actually moves all the action forward instead of stalling it like Jordan did in the last few he wrote.



Actually at the very beginning it was going to be a trilogy with first book ending where the current third one does.  As for the splitting of the last book into three, Jordan had said it was going to be one book no matter how long it was.  Then he died and his Editor-wife and Sanderson quite rightly decided there was no way to fit everything into one book.

As for "milking it for all they can" I don't think that is what they are doing.  There are notes and outlines for a number of outrigger novels the take place after the last one that will probably never be written unless his wife changes her mind.

I am also like Kaellpae, the Wheel of Time is one of my favorite series because of all the detail and I am opposed to them being "abridged."  I'm opposed to the entire concept of abridging books, the writer wrote the book the way it was for a reason and people should respect that

Reading an entire series like this is like climbing a mountain.  Being able to say "I've read the Wheel of Time in its entirety" feels great.  It would be cheapened if someone installed an escalator on the side of that mountain because there would be a lot of people saying they had read the series when really they took the "easy" way.  Which thankfully will probably never happen.


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## Mindfire (Oct 27, 2012)

myrddin173 said:


> Actually at the very beginning it was going to be a trilogy with first book ending where the current third one does.  As for the splitting of the last book into three, Jordan had said it was going to be one book no matter how long it was.  Then he died and his Editor-wife and Sanderson quite rightly decided there was no way to fit everything into one book.
> 
> As for "milking it for all they can" I don't think that is what they are doing.  There are notes and outlines for a number of outrigger novels the take place after the last one that will probably never be written unless his wife changes her mind.
> 
> ...



Sure, if I want to brag about climbing a mountain, I'll climb it. But if I only want to enjoy looking at it, I'll take the ski lift or rent a helicopter. What you're saying is that because you choose to climb, I have absolutely no right to my ski lift or helicopter ride, which is absurd. And besides, reading a book isn't about "achieving" anything. It's about _enjoyment_. And I can enjoy books just fine without sitting through 5 pages describing a dress or blade of grass. For the same reason, I'll probably never read many "classics". Sure I could brag to my friends about reading them, but for the most part they seem dry and dull and I'm unlikely to _enjoy_ the experience.

Fortunately, there IS such a thing as an abridged wheel of time. I found a websites that summarizes the chapters of each book. I think I might just read the summaries of the books Jordan wrote, or maybe just the most overwrought ones, and then read the Sanderson books.


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## myrddin173 (Oct 27, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Sure, if I want to brag about climbing a mountain, I'll climb it. But if I only want to enjoy looking at it, I'll take the ski lift or rent a helicopter. What you're saying is that because you choose to climb, I have absolutely no right to my ski lift or helicopter ride, which is absurd. And besides, reading a book isn't about "achieving" anything. It's about _enjoyment_. And I can enjoy books just fine without sitting through 5 pages describing a dress or blade of grass. For the same reason, I'll probably never read many "classics". Sure I could brag to my friends about reading them, but for the most part they seem dry and dull and I'm unlikely to _enjoy_ the experience.
> 
> Fortunately, there IS such a thing as an abridged wheel of time. I found a websites that summarizes the chapters of each book. I think I might just read the summaries of the books Jordan wrote, or maybe just the most overwrought ones, and then read the Sanderson books.



I am sorry.  Looking over my post it seems rather antagonistic, which I did not intend, but I get a little passionate when it comes to the things I love.  In my opinion summaries do not convey the little intricacies that make the Wheel of Time what it is.  Yah they might be overly descriptive and long winded but that is what makes them Wheel of Time books, it is one of their defining characteristics.  Now I don't have anything against summaries as I don't view that as being an abridgement.  (When I said there would be no abridged Wheel of Time I meant there would be no formally published abridged Wheel of Time.)  As for achieving vs. enjoyment I don't think they are immiscible but rather that they go hand in hand.  Last summer my dad and I hiked up Mount Greylock (in Massachusetts) and enjoyed almost every minute of it, but I still felt a sense of accomplishment.  It is the same with a good book, I am proud of every book I finish but that is just who I am.

My recommendation is if you don't enjoy reading something then don't read it.  Personally I don't really see a difference between Sanderson's Wheel of Time and Jordan's.  The Wheel of Time is not for everyone, and I think you should find your thing rather than reading something you are not enjoying.

About the climbing the mountain/helicopter ride.  I didn't mention those in my first post because people who use them don't claim to have "climbed the mountain".  I feel that there are some out there who would read an abridged Wheel of Time and claim to have "read the entire series" when in reality they did not.  Not everyone would but there would be some.

I apologize again if this seems also seems antagonistic, and I hope we can get along.


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## Zero Angel (Oct 27, 2012)

Agreed to original post of the thread. 

I loved the books, but forcing to read 100 pages of backstory at the beginning of each book to get set-up from different characters' POV really started to grind my gears after a while. I take it back. I love the story. I think I'd really like an anime that did the books (especially if it would eliminate half the internal nit-picking between genders). But I don't care for the writing style of Jordan himself. To be fair, I don't have a problem reading it, 'cuz I just skim until I get to something I'm interested in.

Anyway, the big criticism with the later Jordan books though, is that it was a terrible game of waiting! To allude to crassness, it changed the color of the reader's genitalia...I guess that's not an allusion but just plain crass. Whatever. 

We would read an entire book and maybe ONE thing would happen that pushed the characters closer to the end. Half of it was inconsequential!

Especially when he started 



Spoiler: spoiler



bringing back Forsaken from the dead! What was the point of that? Other than the gender-bending one that could use the male magicks but was female so no one suspected her of being devious----------MORE GENDER ROLES BS FROM JORDAN


. 

...breathe, breathe, breathe...

But Sanderson was able to achieve the same style of Jordan, AND, because of the desire to FINISH the series, started giving us what we wanted at a mile a minute. Every chapter had consequence! Stuff started happening again! Not to say the obvious, but the Wheel of Time started moving! HOORAY!


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## Zero Angel (Oct 28, 2012)

myrddin173 said:


> About the climbing the mountain/helicopter ride.  I didn't mention those in my first post because people who use them don't claim to have "climbed the mountain".  I feel that there are some out there who would read an abridged Wheel of Time and claim to have "read the entire series" when in reality they did not.  Not everyone would but there would be some.
> 
> I apologize again if this seems also seems antagonistic, and I hope we can get along.



To be deliberately antagonistic, but not towards you, towards people that brag about that: Who cares? I mean, if people brag to me about doing _anything_ I'm probably going to tune them out and bragging about reading is basically saying, "Hey guys, I have a lot of time on my hands and I fill it doing something that requires only basic literacy and no real talent."

I'd say instead of the mountain/ski-lift analogy, it's more like walking on the conveyor belts at the airport versus walking next to the conveyor belts at the airport.


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## Steerpike (Oct 28, 2012)

Yes Sanderson has moved the action forward. He makes you want to read just one more chapter.


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## Konrad (Dec 11, 2012)

Hmmm. In some ways this series was very easy to bash (for all of the above reasons), but on the other hand, each book seemed to have those special parts that I just could not put down. Perrin's wolf encounters and battles. Matt's bizarro world and later marriage. Lan's focus as literally the last man standing of his line. 

The writing sometimes is flawed (and no, you could never make Jordan politically correct with regard to women pressing their skirts flat), but the creativity goes much further than what the critics would have you believe. Sanderson seems to have done a good job--and the writing is tighter--but I guess we'll just have to see how he wraps everything up. 

K


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 14, 2013)

I'm 200 pages into _A Memory of Light_, and I have some random observations about the book and him in general:

I've never been a huge Sanderson fan.  I think he's done well concluding WoT, but, otherwise, I think he's just competent.  I've read all four Mistborn books but don't feel that they were all that great.  I literally couldn't tell you anything about The Way of Kings despite having read it.  Seriously, I don't remember the characters or the plot.  In general, I remember reading it and not hating it, but that's it.

I've progressed a lot in my writing ability since the last time I read a Sanderson book.  I have to say some of the techniques he used in A Memory of Light distracted me but only because I'm incredibly particular about such things.  I don't think most of those technical issues make any kind of difference to most readers and opinions will vary among those who have thoughts on such things.

I think that, mainly, I don't find Sanderson's characters all that memorable, and characters are what drive my reading experience.  With WoT, he's starting with characters I already love and does a great job with them, but he seems to not be able to create a character from scratch that I love.

A Memory of Light, though I'm enjoying it quite a bit, isn't drawing me in.  I'm finding it incredibly easy to put down.  The Jordan written ones, despite the flaws, kept me turning pages even when I knew I should be going to bed or paying attention to my wife.  I think perhaps the problem is that he keeps jumping for character to character and event to event.  It is, perhaps, unavoidable.  There are a lot of threads that have to be tied up.  On the other hand, I can't help but think of Titanic - by the end, I'm thinking, "Will the stupid ship just sink already?"


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## Steerpike (Jan 14, 2013)

Interesting, Brian. I couldn't stand to read the last three or four that Jordan wrote. I had to listen to them on CD because I just couldn't take it any more


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 14, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Interesting, Brian. I couldn't stand to read the last three or four that Jordan wrote. I had to listen to them on CD because I just couldn't take it any more



I'm not saying that I didn't skip over some sections the second and third times I reread it...

Of course, I think I'm somewhat more discerning in my tastes now.  It'll be interesting to find out how I feel after the next time I go through it.  Don't know when that will be, though.  It literally takes all my free time for a month to do it and leaves my wife seriously ticked.

EDIT: 2013 is turning out to be a good reading year for me so far - I've already finished 4 books, all of which I enjoyed; I'll finish A Memory of Light this week; and I believe John Ringo has his latest Troy Rising book coming out later this month.


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## Steerpike (Jan 14, 2013)

Yeah, I've read a number of good books already as well, which is nice. This zombie book Dead City is turning out to be a lot better than expected as well. I'm looking forward to A Memory of Light. I have not read any of Ringo's Troy Rising books. I'll have to check those out.


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 14, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Yeah, I've read a number of good books already as well, which is nice. This zombie book Dead City is turning out to be a lot better than expected as well. I'm looking forward to A Memory of Light. I have not read any of Ringo's Troy Rising books. I'll have to check those out.



Have you read Ringo at all and liked him?  If not, I would suggest checking out reviews before trying him.  His style is a lot different than what my impression of the kind of stories you would like (though I could be completely off on that).  

Action drives the stories, and the heroes are very heroic.  I like, though, how he infused much more emotion in his stories than the typical action writer.  

I view his works as popcorn reading - just kinda light and fun.


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## Zero Angel (Jan 14, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> EDIT: 2013 is turning out to be a good reading year for me so far - I've already finished 4 books, all of which I enjoyed; I'll finish A Memory of Light this week; and I believe John Ringo has his latest Troy Rising book coming out later this month.


I can't find anything about a book 4. Do you know anything else about it?

I think it's been a topic on here a few times how writing changes your tastes in reading. When I go back to read old favorites nowadays, I find myself fast-forwarding through most of them just to re-experience the plot, characters and settings I fell in love with the first time. It's a rare writer that I want to read their prose for a second time--in fact, I can't think of any.



BWFoster78 said:


> Have you read Ringo at all and liked him?  If not, I would suggest checking out reviews before trying him.  His style is a lot different than what my impression of the kind of stories you would like (though I could be completely off on that).


I too would caution you, Steerpike, although I am most surprised that Brian likes Ringo. I think they're good stories, to which I assume you enjoy.

My biggest warning of Ringo is not his style or characters (to which the aforementioned reviewers BWFoster78 referenced would cover), but rather that the easily offended liberal may not want to read them. I am very liberal and I have no problem with them, but I can see some people grow irate if they take stuff too seriously. 

Note: Can only speak of Troy Rising, most of the Posleen War books (but not the extended ones), the first Cally's War, and There Will Be Dragons.


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## Steerpike (Jan 14, 2013)

I've read a couple of Ringo books and I thought they were fun. Quite the Libertarian streak running through them, but that's OK. I like Heinlein as well.


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 14, 2013)

> I can't find anything about a book 4. Do you know anything else about it?



Oops.  I was thinking that he had a Troy Rising book coming out.  It's actually a Paladin of Shadows book.  Even better.  And it's already out!  Awesome. 

Sorry about that.



> although I am most surprised that Brian likes Ringo.



I think it's an illustration of two things:

1. Story trumps technique.  The stories are fast paced and fun, and he's really good at getting the emotions right - not too little to make the characters flat but not too much to turn to melodrama.

2. You can write as crappy as you want IF it works.  For him, it works.  I'm looking very forward to the next book of his I read so that I can analyze it more.



> Note: Can only speak of Troy Rising, most of the Posleen War books (but not the extended ones), the first Cally's War, and There Will Be Dragons.



To the best of my knowledge, I've read literally everything he's published except for two books - one of the sequels to the Posleen War and the aforementioned just released one.

Note that I've purchased a lot of his books, and now he's one of the few authors I will buy newly released books from.  Note that I found his books because he and Baen gave a lot of them away.


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## danr62 (Jan 14, 2013)

I am a Sanderson fan and the fact that he picked up the series is the only thing making me consider picking it up again. But that would mean having to dig through my storage unit, pull out the heavy a** book boxes, and dig through them until I find all of the WoT books. Then I would have to reread them. Then I would have to pick up and trudge through the next 2 or 3 books before the Sanderson books pick up.

I'm still on the fence with this one.


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## Zero Angel (Jan 15, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Note that I've purchased a lot of his books, and now he's one of the few authors I will buy newly released books from.  Note that I found his books because he and Baen gave a lot of them away.



That's how I found them as well! Looks like the free books as a promotion tool worked well with us!



danr62 said:


> I am a Sanderson fan and the fact that he picked up the series is the only thing making me consider picking it up again. But that would mean having to dig through my storage unit, pull out the heavy a** book boxes, and dig through them until I find all of the WoT books. Then I would have to reread them. Then I would have to pick up and trudge through the next 2 or 3 books before the Sanderson books pick up.
> 
> I'm still on the fence with this one.


You could always go to the library. 

I never stopped being interested in WoT, so it wasn't a big ordeal for me to decide, but if I was on the fence then it would be a question of my emotional investment in the characters and their lives and wanting to know what will happen to them. If that applies to you, then it's probably a no-brainer. 

The only fear I have is that the ending will be a giant kick-in-the-teeth "reset" instead of a satisfying conclusion. 

I am chomping at the bit to be able to purchase the last book and am hoping for a summer purchase--maybe even a spring one!


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 15, 2013)

> The only fear I have is that the ending will be a giant kick-in-the-teeth "reset" instead of a satisfying conclusion.



I'll finish reading it this weekend and will publish a review next week.  I do my best to put no spoilers in my review, but I'll try to answer that question in general terms.



> That's how I found them as well! Looks like the free books as a promotion tool worked well with us!



No joke!

Regarding your comment about being surprised by liking Ringo, my second favorite genre, after coming-of-age epic fantasy, is combat sci fi.  Go figure.


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## Steerpike (Jan 15, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Regarding your comment about being surprised by liking Ringo, my second favorite genre, after coming-of-age epic fantasy, is combat sci fi.  Go figure.



Some good books I can recommend:

The Forever War, by Joe Haldeman
Armor, by John Steakley
Old Man's War, by John Scalzi
Starship Troopers, by Robert Heinlein
Tanya Huff's series, starting with Valor's Choice
Jack Campbell's Lost Fleet series


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## Zero Angel (Jan 15, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Some good books I can recommend:
> 
> The Forever War, by Joe Haldeman
> Armor, by John Steakley
> ...



I enjoy this genre as well. Thanks for the recommendations. Sword and Laser just recommended Old Man's War too, but these all look to be heavyweights I am aware of but haven't read. Thanks!


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 15, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Some good books I can recommend:
> 
> The Forever War, by Joe Haldeman
> Armor, by John Steakley
> ...



I'll check some of those out.

You didn't mention Gordon Dickson.  Do you not like his stuff, or have you not read him?


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 21, 2013)

> The only fear I have is that the ending will be a giant kick-in-the-teeth "reset" instead of a satisfying conclusion.



Zero,

I'm not sure if you're going to like the ending or not.  Still, it did reach what I thought was a satisfying conclusion that fit the story and was worth the read.


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## Konrad (Feb 8, 2013)

Wait--somebody clue me in... 

Did he actually finish the series? I thought there would possibly be two books left...

I mean, of course, clue me in, but no spoilers, please!

K


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## Steerpike (Feb 8, 2013)

My understanding is that it is finished, Konrad.


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## Konrad (Feb 9, 2013)

Cool... I seem to be in the minority, but for all its flaws, I did like The Wheel of Time. Jordan had a brilliant imagination, and the games of houses were worth it for me. Yes, I did get tired of the "every woman is in heat" approach, and no, I can't imagine re-reading the series, but it certainly was better than a number of fantasy tales I have on my shelf. 

I thought Sanderson did a good job with the previous book. It was a fairly smooth transition, and he is quite a capable writer. It must of been an ungodly amount of work to read Jordan's notes, the books while trying to get a handle on the myriad (or is multitude a better word?) threads that needed to be wrapped up to end the book. 

Anyway, off to the book store...

K


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