# Do people even read high fantasy anymore?



## Alex (Feb 22, 2012)

Do readers even bother reading things like high fantasy with elves and magic and swords anymore, or is it more worth just writing as a hobby?


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## Steerpike (Feb 22, 2012)

Of course. The fantasy shelves are full of that stuff.


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## myrddin173 (Feb 22, 2012)

Yes, unless I'm not people. In which case, I'm either a robot or a god... I hope its the second one.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Feb 22, 2012)

Alex said:


> Do readers even bother reading things like high fantasy with elves and magic and swords anymore, or is it more worth just writing as a hobby?



Nah, there's plenty of it out there. It isn't getting as much attention these days because of _A Song of Ice and Fire_'s rise, so you hear a lot about dark, gritty, "realistic" fantasy instead. But there's still plenty out there.



myrddin173 said:


> Yes, unless I'm not people. In which case, I'm either a robot or a god... I hope its the second one.



Well, when someone asks if you're a god, what do you say?


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## Alex (Feb 22, 2012)

Thanks everyone, I needed a confidence boost!


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## Codey Amprim (Feb 22, 2012)

Alex said:
			
		

> Thanks everyone, I needed a confidence boost!



We're all in that boat most of the time. Ive just never bothered to get out. But, yes, people still read High Fantasy - not as much as they should, but still! ;p


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## Philip Overby (Feb 23, 2012)

I don't think high fantasy really waned in popularity at all, it's just Martin and writers like him have stirred up some new excitement in what was considered a high percentage, high fantasy market.  I think high fantasy, for people that don't know much about fantasy, is considered "generic fantasy."  Dragons, knights, maidens to be rescued, worlds to be saved, etc . However, I think if done correctly, it can be way better than even some of the more popular gritty stuff.


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## SeverinR (Feb 23, 2012)

The spotlight is off of Fantasy right now, but there have always been people that read fantasy.
"LOTR" brought the spotlight back to fantasy, I believe "The Hobbit" will do it again.

Star wars brought the spotlight to sci-fi.

No matter what the public spotlight is on, all genres still have a following, some stronger than other but I doubt any genre will cease to exist.


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## rachelwrites527 (Feb 23, 2012)

Of COURSE people still read high fantasy.  There's a pretty decent, dedicated fandom, even if the genre isn't popular at the moment.  The first section I go to in the library/bookstore is the fantasy section.  And besides, we're all fantasy writers here.  What are we going to say?  That no one enjoys reading fantasy?


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## Queshire (Feb 23, 2012)

Personally, and somewhat ashamedly, I tend to not read much high fantasy. When I do read it I tend to enjoy it, but most high fantasy just doesn't catch my eye enough for me to read it. I'm the same with sci-fi, when I read it I enjoy it, but getting me to read it takes some work.

I can't really explain it well, but the most important thing is to make your book seem like not "Just Another" fantasy book. Twist something, do something different, show the bad guy's perspective, have a guy from our world get sent to your world and take over the world with SCIENCE!!! Have the princess go out and slay the dragon. Play with our expectations, SHOW US SOMETHING DIFFERENT ONCE IN A BLOODY WHILE!!!


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## Konstanz (Feb 24, 2012)

There are still plenty of people that read high fantasy although personally I think that genres like low fantasy (only humans, limited magic) and dark fantasy (subgenre where moral ambiguity and world problems are the main themes) are more popular right now. The problem with that is that a lot of low quality high fantasy books are churned out every year and it's really hard to find something word reading. I don't seem to have that problem with dark fantasy (my all-time favorite). 

Dark fantasy is becoming more and more popular. A lot of new games are based in worlds like that (best example I can think of is the Dragon Age series). The only High Fantasy game that is really popular is WoW...

But it's not about games here and forgive my short deviation from the subject. What I wanted to say is: it doesn't matter if your genre is still popular, if it's good, people will read it.


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## MichaelSullivan (Feb 29, 2012)

Queshire said:


> Personally, and somewhat ashamedly, I tend to not read much high fantasy. When I do read it I tend to enjoy it, but most high fantasy just doesn't catch my eye enough for me to read it. I'm the same with sci-fi, when I read it I enjoy it, but getting me to read it takes some work.
> 
> I can't really explain it well, but the most important thing is to make your book seem like not "Just Another" fantasy book. Twist something, do something different, show the bad guy's perspective, have a guy from our world get sent to your world and take over the world with SCIENCE!!! Have the princess go out and slay the dragon. Play with our expectations, SHOW US SOMETHING DIFFERENT ONCE IN A BLOODY WHILE!!!



Traditional doesn't mean "rehashed." It's all about execution and even a timeless theme done well will find an audience. I think my books are being received as well as they are because I'm not following the current dark and gritty trends. My heroes are unlikely, but ultimately will do the right thing.  Write characters that are beliveable and that people enjoy being around and they'll be happy campters.  Plus, never underestimate the power of using expectations against the reader. In my first book the I make the "bad guy" someone that everyone expects to be so, because it has happened often in the past.  But in the second book...you find out that who I told you was the culprit really wasn't.  So don't be afraid to lead people to a well worn path just to trap them into a surprise.


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## Helen (Mar 1, 2012)

People read it and like it. But apparently crime fiction is the real seller.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Mar 1, 2012)

The problem with high fantasy is the vast amount of it, and the never ending series that go with them.  Nothing like looking through the books and seeing 'Book 8'...I skip it without a second thought.  They used to come in trilogies, but the cycle has taken over, and how many of those do I want to get into and wait around for book 12 or 15?  I have plenty of never ending stuff on tv I don't watch. 

I'll echo the write it well and you'll have readers, no matter what kind of fantasy.


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## Steerpike (Mar 1, 2012)

I agree about the predominance of series. I skip them for the most part, at least until they are complete. They do seem to be popular though.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Mar 1, 2012)

I'll swear on whatever holy books are available that my current novel is the first in a trilogy, and will absolutely under no circumstances run longer than that.


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## Ghost (Mar 1, 2012)

Helen said:


> People read it and like it. But apparently crime fiction is the real seller.



I thought it was romance? I need to make a romantic crime fantasy now. 

I don't enjoy high fantasy as much as other types. To me, so much of it retreads old ground. Plenty of people out there enjoy it, though. It's my belief that at any given time of day, dozens of people are writing about elves.

Even if everyone in this thread hated high fantasy, it wouldn't really matter. You've got to write what you love. That's where the magic comes from.


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## MichaelSullivan (Mar 2, 2012)

Helen said:


> People read it and like it. But apparently crime fiction is the real seller.



Actually the biggest sellers by a long shot is romance - followed by erotica.


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## Link (Mar 2, 2012)

I read the fantasy which I know will be enjoyable to read. I don't even pick up a book off the shelf if it has a picture of loose women holding swords and posing in a way similar to gogo girls. Good fantasy writing is well thought out and well researched. My favorites are LOTR, Tolkien, The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss, and Green Rider by Kristen Britain. All those are wonderful books. Once I started reading Rothfuss, I was completely immersed in it, and that's what fantasy should do.

Also, everyone needs to be somewhere they have never been and fantasy writing does that. To write fantasy, you have to read fantasy. Especially the new fantasy because those authors are making something work right now, so you might as well want to know what it is that made them successful.


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## ALB2012 (Jun 15, 2012)

Alex said:


> Do readers even bother reading things like high fantasy with elves and magic and swords anymore, or is it more worth just writing as a hobby?



I damn well hope so as that is what I write


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## ALB2012 (Jun 15, 2012)

Ouroboros said:


> I thought it was romance? I need to make a romantic crime fantasy now.



If you like that I would recommend Viridis by Calista Taylor. I read this recently and loved it. It is a Steampunk genre but its romance crime fantasy. 
Viridis - A Steampunk Romance & Mystery (The Viridis Series) eBook: Calista Taylor: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store


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## Endymion (Jun 15, 2012)

Konstanz said:


> There are still plenty of people that read high fantasy although personally I think that genres like low fantasy (only humans, limited magic) and dark fantasy (subgenre where moral ambiguity and world problems are the main themes) are more popular right now. The problem with that is that a lot of low quality high fantasy books are churned out every year and it's really hard to find something word reading. I don't seem to have that problem with dark fantasy (my all-time favorite).
> 
> Dark fantasy is becoming more and more popular. A lot of new games are based in worlds like that (best example I can think of is the Dragon Age series). The only High Fantasy game that is really popular is WoW...
> 
> But it's not about games here and forgive my short deviation from the subject. What I wanted to say is: it doesn't matter if your genre is still popular, if it's good, people will read it.



Wow, it seems I am writing a dark fantasy book.


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## Chilari (Jun 15, 2012)

Konstanz said:


> The only High Fantasy game that is really popular is WoW...



I would contest that. FFXI and Guild Wars are also high fantasy, as far as MMOs are concerned, and I would say that there are certainly elements of high fantasy in games like Skyrim (though there exist loral ambiguities too, like the civil war storyline).

But is dark fantasy about moral ambiguity? I always thought of more as a tonal thing, with the characters subjected to greater evils, and perhaps with grey vs black as the core conflict rather than white vs black or at least light grey vs dark grey in high fantasy. One can write a fantasy story about moral ambiguities and yet still have a relatively lighthearted tone. I would consider much of David Gemmell's work to be somewhere on the dark fantasy spectrum.

I guess it depends on definitions.

And back to the topic at hand: I tend not to read high fantasy much, largely because I've just not been reading much fantasy at all recently - mostly historical fiction, non-fiction and the odd thriller recently. I'm happy watching it in the form of a film or TV show. I have got a story on the backburner that would probably be classed as high fantasy: it has a lich sorcerer and some magical creatures and a hero's journey sort of storyline.


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## Robert Donnell (Jun 15, 2012)

This year we get the LOTR prequil THE HOBBIT and next year HOBBIT II, these are still very popular,  there is still room for more.  There are 7 billion people on the planet, if 1% or .001% read Fantasy, that is still a heck of a lot of sales.


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## Chilari (Jun 15, 2012)

Watching high fantasy on the big screen and reading it are quite different things. To take a fairly recent example - last year's Harry Potter 7b film, when a group of about eight teenagers sitting behind me told off one of their number for revealing spoilers; the rest hadn't read the book. Not high fantasy exactly, but clear indication that fantasy film audiences don't necessarily reflect fantasy novel readers. So people watching the Hobbit won't necessarily be indicative of people reading high fantasy. there might be an increase, and I'm certain there will be an increase in people reding the Hobbit at the very least, but the audience number just aren't the same, partly because cinema is primarily a social medium - people who go alone are considered loners and weirdos - and books are not, generally (excepting book clubs).


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## Agran Velion (Jun 15, 2012)

I know that I'm just restating what multiple people have said but of course there is, it just isn't in the spotlight like now. As an example, after Twilight there was that big vampire craze. You can still find vampire books, but they're just rarer to find (thankfully). 

Who knows, maybe your high fantasy book will restart the High Fantasy craze.


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## David Ivanov (Jun 24, 2012)

The continuing success of Terry Brooks would suggest an affirmative answer to your question, Alex.  That being said, I personally have tended to move away from high fantasy because it started getting more than a bit cliche -- the fate of the world hanging in the balance in every novel tends to wear on the reader after a while.  I think Glen Cook struck a masterful balance of high fantasy and gritty realism in the Black Company novels.  However, these days I like more modest undertakings like the Locke Lamora novels (are you out there Scott Lynch?) or the Brent Weeks assassin novels.


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## Jess A (Jun 25, 2012)

Ghost said:


> I thought it was romance? I need to make a romantic crime fantasy now.



Done (without the fantasy aspect...though I'll bet those are also around in the paranormal section). Catherine Coulter, Lora Leigh etc. Mira puts a lot of those out, too - 'spicy' thrillers and crime detectives with sex involved. Some with paranormal elements. I sell books. Crime and action thriller seems to be the biggest selling genre for us, as well as whatever is being talked about. _Twilight_, Stieg Larsson's books, _The Hunger Games_, _Game of Thrones_, _Fifty Shades of Grey_; all attract readers of varied ages and literary tastes. If I had a dollar for every customer who requested _Fifty Shades of Grey_ in one day...

Fantasy is going very strong. But it attracts far choosier people, usually with specific tastes, in my experience. For readers who like Karen Slaughter, Karen Rose etc, it's fairly easy to give them an Alex Kava or a Tess Gerritsen - crime thriller female writers - and they'll walk away pretty pleased. Even with Stieg Larsson, you can please his readers with also-Swedish writer Jo Nesbo - despite Nesbo's books reportedly being rather poorly written in comparison. It is not so with fantasy. And most fantasy readers I have met can easily tell the difference between the rubbish and the gems, and many have read a lot of the 'big' names (George R. R. Martin, Robin Hobb, Sara Douglass, Terry Brooks, Raymond Feist, George R. R. Martin, Terry Goodkind, to name a few). As with fantasy, literary fiction attracts very discerning types.

I must note that most crime thriller readers I chat to like their specific genres (there are many kinds of crime thrillers) and are happy to re-read the same sort of thing, though they do it because most want a light read with some thrills. 

I am sure there is a thread asking why people read fantasy. I should like to locate it and read it.


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## Ophiucha (Jun 25, 2012)

Certainly, the most popular fantasy series in the recent past seems to be _The Kingkiller Chronicle_, which is heroic fantasy with magic and true names and all those good tropes. I reckon that's a good sign for your standard fantasy story. And while it may only be a tenth or less of everyone who goes to see it, I'm sure sales of _The Hobbit_ will get a good jump towards the end of the year. There's definitely a lot more than the usual elves and dragons in the market, but I don't think they'll be going away any time soon.


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## Steerpike (Jun 25, 2012)

Little Storm Cloud said:


> I must note that most crime thriller readers I chat to like their specific genres (there are many kinds of crime thrillers) and are happy to re-read the same sort of thing, though they do it because most want a light read with some thrills.



I don't know - I wonder if those lines are so easy to draw. I read all of that stuff; I read crime thrillers, legal thrillers, fantasy, science fiction, horror, historical fiction, and whatever else I come across that is good. The person I know who, besides me, reads the most fantasy, also reads a great many crime thrillers. But they have to be good.

And with the popularity of gaming-based Fantasy (like D&D/Forgotten Realms fantasy novels) it is hard to make an argument for discernment. I know a couple of people who read nothing but those (D&D, Pathfinder, and so on), and some of those are truly awful.

I'm betting there is a lot more overlap with other genres for most Fantasy readers. At least, with the exception of the D&D-oriented readers I know, everyone I know who reads fantasy reads well outside the genre. They're also crime thriller readers, or romance readers, or historical fiction readers, or horror readers, and so on. So can you really talk of "fantasy readers" and "crime thriller readers" as though they are two separate and distinct groups?


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## Jess A (Jun 26, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> I don't know - I wonder if those lines are so easy to draw. I read all of that stuff; I read crime thrillers, legal thrillers, fantasy, science fiction, horror, historical fiction, and whatever else I come across that is good. The person I know who, besides me, reads the most fantasy, also reads a great many crime thrillers. But they have to be good.
> 
> And with the popularity of gaming-based Fantasy (like D&D/Forgotten Realms fantasy novels) it is hard to make an argument for discernment. I know a couple of people who read nothing but those (D&D, Pathfinder, and so on), and some of those are truly awful.
> 
> I'm betting there is a lot more overlap with other genres for most Fantasy readers. At least, with the exception of the D&D-oriented readers I know, everyone I know who reads fantasy reads well outside the genre. They're also crime thriller readers, or romance readers, or historical fiction readers, or horror readers, and so on. So can you really talk of "fantasy readers" and "crime thriller readers" as though they are two separate and distinct groups?



I am speaking from my experience as a bookseller; I can't say what people prefer in other areas. I do read a bit of crime and espionage as well. I get a lot of requests from people for 'female detectives', 'fast-paced action similar to Lee Child, Vince Flynn', 'legal thriller but with male/female lead only', 'ongoing character but has to be English or American or Australian' or 'medical thriller' etc. Another would be the Martina Cole 'gritty' thrillers. A bit too crass for some but adored by many others. Yes there is an overlap, but yes there are specific types which people will request, and we tend to have a list of authors which are known to be 'similar'. 

As for the fantasy readers, they discern between the 'cheap' crap and the good stuff. But some people like the 'crap'! I think James Patterson is rather terrible, but he is one of the biggest sellers in the store. People like the short chapters, the easy read - those are the comments I receive. I like a light read sometimes, but I just can't bloody stand Patterson and I have read some of his (ghost-written) novels. Or Dean Koontz - eek. But that's me.

Yes, fantasy readers may read crime; some read paranormal but many enjoy crime, espionage, literary fiction, historical and biographies (to name the most common requests from fantasy readers in my store). I am a diverse reader myself. I would be incredibly bored just reading fantasy. I took a long break from it in fact. Not all customers stick to the 'one' thing, though I have a few who will only read a certain genre and that's it. God forbid if I recommend anything different, no matter what the reviews or whether it has some similarity!

Can I talk of them as separate groups? In my business, yes I absolutely can in some cases. Not everybody is a diverse reader as far as genres go. Some, like me, need to be in the mood for a genre and they are wide readers. Some will read anything, any time. Others certainly stick to their genre. And those people are certainly not uncommon - or they are into that genre lately but used to read another and they will stick to that genre for some time. I've known some of these people and what they read for many years. Some will accept a new genre after a time and some never will.  

But we are going off topic. Plus my brain is elsewhere so forgive my lack of clarity.


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## Silverglass (Jun 26, 2012)

Hi, all....took me a while to get back here after joining. 

Interesting question. I don't define 'high fantasy' as including elves, unicorns, dragons, etc. I would call that 'traditional' fantasy, though. To me high fantasy means some sort of epic quest or journey, major powers squaring off against each other (whether magical or mundane, or both), magic as a major component of the story, and often, an underlying moral theme that pits good against evil (although this can include a whole spectrum of choices). I don't think this excludes "gritty" or "realistic", as long as the magic, the quest and the struggle are there. 

Personally, I tend to avoid stores about elves as they all seem to be derivative of Tolkien or of each other. I adore Tolkien, and pale copies of Tolkienesque elves either annoy or bore me. Now if someone uses elves in an original way, that's different.  The same with dragons, wizards, witches and so on. Not that I haven't used most of these myself at one point or another.  

There are so many sub-genres now that it seems as as though "high" or "traditional" fantasy has fallen by the wayside, but if you look you can find it. You might have to shove a lot of steampunk, vampire and urban-fantasy/demon killers out of the way, though.


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## Alex (Jun 26, 2012)

I'm glad you mentioned that.  I don't really have elves in my WIP, more like descendants of elves.  They are...evolved if you will.  My dragons actually went and built their own massive cities on mountaintops and wide open plains.  I felt that to be...somewhat original.


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## Silverglass (Jun 27, 2012)

Alex, yes, that is something I haven't seen much of. I recall one book I read that had dragons as a more evolved society, but it wasn't a very good book...not that that idea was bad, just the main plotline and the writing wasn't that good. I like the idea of dragons being builders! I usually see them used as villains or as the main transportation/weapon for a group of fighters. This can be done very well of course (Temeraire, for ex.) but it's nice to see something that hasn't been done before.


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## Alex (Jun 28, 2012)

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but originality keeps the genre alive! It's a damn shame that genres like fantasy and sci fi don't get the attention they deserve anymore.  However it's nice to hear that we all still have millions of potential fans


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## Steerpike (Jun 28, 2012)

Alex, just out of curiosity what time period are you using as your frame of reference? From where I'm sitting, it seems fantasy and science fiction (and particularly fantasy) are as popular now as ever and are getting more attention than they have in the past. You can even be a "respectable" writer within the genre, which seems to be a relatively recent phenomena.


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## Alex (Jul 9, 2012)

Steerpike said:
			
		

> Alex, just out of curiosity what time period are you using as your frame of reference?



I was speaking of your typical, middle ages high fantasy.  Such as LOTR or GoT.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 9, 2012)

After reading the last couple of pages of this thread, I'm a little confused.  I thought that high (or epic) fantasy is defined as fantasy where you create your own world while low fantasy means it takes place in today's world (like Harry Potter).  The terms, as I understand them, have nothing to do with whether they have elves.

I consider my book epic fantasy, and I have no dragons or non human races.


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## Steerpike (Jul 9, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> After reading the last couple of pages of this thread, I'm a little confused.  I thought that high (or epic) fantasy is defined as fantasy where you create your own world while low fantasy means it takes place in today's world (like Harry Potter).  The terms, as I understand them, have nothing to do with whether they have elves.
> 
> I consider my book epic fantasy, and I have no dragons or non human races.



Those are the definitions I've seen as well, but most writers and readers I've talked to seem to use high fantasy to refer to epic fantasies along the lines of Tolkien, with elves, magic weapons, and the like, and don't bring considerations of real world v. created world into it.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 9, 2012)

My understanding:

High fantasy = Fantasy creatures are part of the norm. Magic is everywhere.
Low fantasy = Magic & monstrous creatures are a rarity
Urban fantasy = Magic & monsters in our modern world

It doesn't surprise me that the terms would be used differently in different circles.


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## Steerpike (Jul 9, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> My understanding:
> 
> High fantasy = Fantasy creatures are part of the norm. Magic is everywhere.
> Low fantasy = Magic & monstrous creatures are a rarity
> ...



I think that's exactly how the majority of fans of the genre use the terms. At least, those are the definitions I see used most often.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 9, 2012)

Interesting.  I'm still calling mine "epic" fantasy.  Magic, if not the creatures, is somewhat abundant.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 9, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:
			
		

> Interesting.  I'm still calling mine "epic" fantasy.  Magic, if not the creatures, is somewhat abundant.



I believe that epic fantasy & high fantasy are interchangeable terms.


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## Christopher Wright (Jul 9, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I believe that epic fantasy & high fantasy are interchangeable terms.



I never took it that way. "High" and "Low" are usually used to determine how much magic is in the world. "Epic" is usually used to describe the scope of the story. I.e., a story that changes the course of the world is "epic," while a guy trying to make it through the day without getting killed is "Sword & Sorcery." But you can have high magic Sword & Sorcery (i.e., Fafhrd and Gray Mouser) and low magic Sword & Sorcery (i.e., most Conan stories). And you have high magic Epic Fantasy (i.e., Tolkien, David Eddings) and low magic Epic Fantasy (GRRM).


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 9, 2012)

Christopher Wright said:
			
		

> I never took it that way. "High" and "Low" are usually used to determine how much magic is in the world. "Epic" is usually used to describe the scope of the story. I.e., a story that changes the course of the world is "epic," while a guy trying to make it through the day without getting killed is "Sword & Sorcery." But you can have high magic Sword & Sorcery (i.e., Fafhrd and Gray Mouser) and low magic Sword & Sorcery (i.e., most Conan stories). And you have high magic Epic Fantasy (i.e., Tolkien, David Eddings) and low magic Epic Fantasy (GRRM).



I would agree with that.

Most people, I think, interchange the two. When I looked up "epic fantasy" it showed "high fantasy" as common results.


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## psychotick (Jul 9, 2012)

Hi,

As to what fantasy people read mostly I don't know. My sister tells me that urban fantasy (just to throw another name in the pot) is really hot these days. All I can tell you is that the traditional fantasy (elves, dwarves wizards) I published a year ago, is still outselling all my others.

Having read this thread though I'm thinking I have to change my WIP which is also a traditional fantasy. Now my main character is going to have to switch from being a lord to a crime solving romantic with a taste for explicit sexual conquests!

Cheers, Greg.


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## Chandrapal (Jul 12, 2012)

I read ! Thick books are the only thing that makes me happy :wavespin:


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