# "Sir", nicknames, and capitalization



## Feo Takahari (Feb 22, 2014)

I know it's (usually) not capitalized when you call someone "sir." I also know it's capitalized when it's attached to a name (Sir Tristan.) How about when it's attached to a nickname? In the case in question, a character addresses a water dragon as "sir serpent"--would "Sir serpent" or "Sir Serpent" be more appropriate?


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## Noma Galway (Feb 22, 2014)

I think Sir Serpent would be correct.


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## psychotick (Feb 22, 2014)

Hi,

Actually in my understanding when you use "Sir" in place of a name it is capitalised because it is effectively a name. So in speech it would be "Yes Sir." When you use Sir as a title it's also capitalised. "Sir Prendergast." In America I believe the capitalisation has stopped happening as a move to decreased formality. But even there it flies in the face of common grammar. If you use any other word in place of a name so that it becomes a name, it should be capitalised - as all names should be.

So if my best friend is Stumpy but his real name is John, Stumpy is still a proper name and should be capitalised.

However sir Serpent may slip the leash. You could argue it either way. Serpent is not a proper name, but it is being used in place of a name so should still be capitalised. But sir in this case is not really a title, and hence not part of the name. I would vote for a capital S simply because even though it's meant as a very informal thing, even an insult unders some circumstances, it still probably follows the same rules as does "Mr." And you could not get away with "mr. Serpent."

Cheers Greg.


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## ACSmyth (Feb 23, 2014)

I'd capitalise Sir Serpent.

In "Yes, sir," it's not capitalised. Jury's out about "Sire" though, when referring to a king. My editor keeps changing my "Sire" to "sire" and I keep changing it back. Strictly speaking, if you look at style manuals, sire is not capitalised, but in fantasy fiction it more often than not seems to take the capital, so that's the standard I've adopted.

Also, bizarrely, "my" terms of address are not capitalised, whereas "Your" terms are. So "Yes, my lord," but "Yes, Your Highness." If it's directly in place of a name, though, it is. "Yes, my prince," but "Yes, Prince." That's why I went with the capital for Sire, actually, since "Yes, Prince," but "Yes, sire" made no sense to me at all!

I spent quite a while wrangling this while writing my novel. Can you tell? *sighs*


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## TheMirrorMage (Feb 23, 2014)

I am in agreement with _psychotick_, since the "proper" use of "Sir" is, in essence, a rank (to denote Knights). People would write Private, Corporal, Major and General with capitals (if anything, it's to avoid confusion with private, corporal, major and general). Like psychotick says, "Sir" is a replacement of a name. It also looks better as "Sir Serpent", makes him look more important.

Just to add to that...

When someone refers to a knight whose name is "Gary Dragonheart", and calls him "Sir Gary Dragonheart", then "Sir" is a rank/title, and not a name. It should still be capitalised. And, if you are talking to a knight but not mentioning his name, "Sir" still stands (as a name).

e.g. : "Sir Dragonheart", "Sir Gary Dragonheart" and "Sir"

HOWEVER, when someone refers to someone as "sir" and it isn't a recognition of the person being a knight, then I think it should be "sir".

e.g. : "Yes, my good sir. You are quite correct." or "Yes, good sirs" (to people who aren't knights)

The same, technically, applies if  _you _ are talking to someone above _your _status 

e.g. : "Yes, sir," he said to his teacher.
e.g. : "Yes, sir," the slave said to the merchant.

Sire is slightly different as it should only be used to address the king, and hence probably should be "Sire". And it'd be without name, unless that's how your culture does things (perhaps there's more than one king, so distinction is required). As for the "my" and "Your" difference, I think it's to further raise the King above the speaker. Perhaps "Your Highness" is a title in itself.

Upon research however, I found that Sir is derived from Sire, interestingly. Sire was, apparently, used for knights too. However, I think most people would expect the King to be Sire, and a Knight to be a Sir (typically because modern knighthoods result in the term "Sir" being added before the person's name, rather than "Sire"). 

e.g. Sir Francis Drake
e.g. Sir Alex Ferguson

In summary, if the person really IS a knight, then it's "Sir". If not, it's "sir". Sire is capitalised too. At least, those are the rules I'm following. They're probably not true or "right", *but who's to say that in another world, they do things differently?*

In _A Song of Ice and Fire_, GRRM managed to avoid all confusion by giving knights the title Ser, rather than Sir. This is fictional, as far as I know.


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## BWFoster78 (Feb 23, 2014)

> In summary, if the person really IS a knight, then it's "Sir". If not, it's "sir". Sire is capitalised too. At least, those are the rules I'm following. They're probably not true or "right", but who's to say that in another world, they do things differently?



You may be writing in another world, but your readers, presumably, exist in this one.


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## skip.knox (Feb 23, 2014)

The MirrorMage has described it well. I'll add this from historical usage. If you have a nobleman, or a clergyman, and you are using their title, it gets capitalized. If you are referring to a kind of office generically, it doesn't. Thus, a bishop normally resides in a cathedral city. The city of Speyer was once ruled by the Bishop of Speyer. 

If it's specific to a person, it's a title and so is capitalized, whether it's Sir, Sire, Your Honor, His Holiness, or whatever.


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