# Predator and prey



## caters (Feb 7, 2016)

At least in the habitat where Lisa and Robin live, they are an apex predator.

They can climb trees, giving them an advantage over deer, their main prey.

Even a single humanoid can kill a bear. This is a lot like 2 lionesses killing a giraffe or 2 male lions killing a female elephant. That is that not only does strength count but also skill in how to use that strength.

Wolves are like competition rather than predator or prey to these humanoids.

Robin knows how to calm down even the most aggressive and defensive of snakes.

Based on this alone it would seem that these humanoids have few predators.

The cougar is a predator to these humanoids. While tree climbing is not what a cougar is best at, even very big cats like lions can climb where it would seem impossible to do so.

Now it seems like the tables are turning more towards being lower in the food chain for these humanoids. I think the underground civilization helps with defense against predators.

So from this alone and knowing other animals that live in forests(temperate forests in region 1) and grasslands(like prairies in region 1 of Kepler Bb) could I deduce where these humanoids are in the food chain?

Or do I need more info on more animals to know where they are in the food chain?

It does seem to be that all big cats except the snow leopard and the cheetah are predators to the humanoids.

This is not good if humanoids want to study these big cats, especially lions and tigers.


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## Ireth (Feb 7, 2016)

It might just be me, but this seems a little lopsided. If one of these humanoids can kill a bear, a cougar should be no problem. Also, many bears can climb trees, too.


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## caters (Feb 7, 2016)

To me, the fact that the cougar uses an ambush strategy means that a humanoid might not know that a cougar is there and the cougar takes the opportunity.

That is why I thought the cougar would be a predator to these humanoids and not prey.


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## NerdyCavegirl (Feb 7, 2016)

Eh still seems pretty lopsided. Most predators ambush their prey, because not only are many herbivores far from harmless (rhinos, elk, bovines, etc), but a lot of prey animals have the agility and/or  endurance to outrun a predator that makes their presence known. Bears can climb as well as many big cats of similar size, so I say they'd be more of a danger to your humanoids than a cougar, unless cats are like kryponite. Climbing and ambushing are far from exclusive to felines, so you should either come up with a better reason they're more dangerous (allergies?) or just drop your humanoids lower on the food chain. If they're based on the standard model Homo Sapiens, they shouldn't be apex predator material without a big group and guns. Humans are much slower and weaker than many of both our predators and prey, and our power is in numbers, unlike the solitary behavior of most apex predators. A good comparison to your humanoids would be our chimp cousins, and hyenas to a lesser extent.


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## Ireth (Feb 7, 2016)

NerdyCavegirl said:


> If they're based on the standard model Homo Sapiens, they shouldn't be apex predator material without a big group and guns. Humans are much slower and weaker than many of both our predators and prey, and our power is in numbers, unlike the solitary behavior of most apex predators. A good comparison to your humanoids would be our chimp cousins, and hyenas to a lesser extent.



To be fair, humans do have a lot of endurance. When we started eating meat, we perfected a strategy called "persistence hunting", which allowed us to catch up to our prey simply by virtue of not wearing ourselves out trying to run at it full-force like cheetahs. Certain peoples still use that technique to this day.

Persistence hunting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## NerdyCavegirl (Feb 7, 2016)

Chimps are smaller than us but stronger for their size, much more arboreal than us, and their social groups are comparable in size to the bands our ancestors lived in. They hunt smaller game ranging in size up to boars and hogs, but this is a group effort and their diet consists mainly of vegetation such as fruit. Hyenas aren't as good of an example, especially considering the differences between species, but you also said grasslands and that makes a difference in behavior. The spotted hyena hunts more than the striped hyena, which is mostly a scavenger, and I can't help but see a correlation with the spotted hyena being stronger in numbers. In groups, both chimps and hyenas will attempt to face down animals larger than themselves such as bears or lions, but an individual will usually flee or die. This applies to humans as well.


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## NerdyCavegirl (Feb 7, 2016)

Hey I never said humans had the WORST endurance. I say the chimp and hyena comparisons work pretty well: we're not helpless prey, we're not apex predators, we're not super fast or strong on our own, but we can do pretty okay for ourselves in sustainable numbers. Like other pack animals, we're best to surround, ambush, or exhaust both our predators and our prey, not directly confront either as an individual unless they're smaller. Or there's another legitimate advantage like having a machine gun or being Superman. But in short, it's fine to have humanoids fight bears and hunt larger game if in a group, though if it's one-on-one, a bear would probably be a much bigger danger than a cougar.


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## Sheilawisz (Feb 8, 2016)

Hello Caters.

In order to have a better insight into your questions, I would need to get more complete information about these predatory creatures that you are describing. What size are they? What levels of strength do they have? What are their natural weapons?

I guess that they are equipped with powerful claws and teeth, at least.

Also, what size are the bears that can be killed by these predators? A black bear of 150 kilograms is nowhere near as powerful as a brown bear weighing 600 kilograms. I am assuming that your predators are about the same size of a black bear, so probably they would be in trouble fighting a brown one.

It does make sense to me that they can be killed by a cougar, because an adult cougar is a very, very dangerous beast. The surprise factor would probably give the edge to the cougar, because they can pretty much come out of nowhere and then they break your neck and it's over.

However, if the cougar screws up the surprise factor then your predator should win the fight. There was a real case in Canada in which a man was attacked by a cougar, but it failed to kill him quickly and the man (after sustaining terrible injuries) managed to kill the cougar with his knife.

If you say that wolves are a competition for your predators, to me that means that both species work in packs and that their power is in their numbers.

So far I see no reason why they should be lower in the food chain of your world, unless you point out some particular weakness that would expose them to be killed by other predators and not only by the occasional cougar.


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## Russ (Feb 8, 2016)

Since likely long before the invention of language, the place of the human in the food chain has been determined by things other than our physical characteristics.

IIRC your humanoids have the kind of intelligence that allows them to make and use an orogastric tube.  If that is the case, and their intelligence has developed anything like ours has...they are the apex predator.  Cougars, and hippos, and lions and cape buffalo be damned.

If you give me a bear wrestling creature that can reason out feeding tubes and I will give you the world.


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## Sheilawisz (Feb 8, 2016)

Why is it that so many people in Mythic Scribes always focus on Humanity?

The original post in this thread does not mention humans. Caters describes some type of _humanoid_ predatory creature, and judging from the description it's clear that they have not developed any weapon that would give them a decisive advantage over any other species.

I think this is a scenario of claws vs claws, just sheer power and skills vs sheer power and skills.

I need to research more about this, but I am pretty sure that a cougar can at least hold its ground against a black bear. Cougars also have killed wolves (it takes several wolves to kill a cougar), so they cannot be underestimated. In case Cater's predators are competition for wolves and at the same time they can be killed by a cougar, then maybe they are in the same league of the cougars themselves.

I am curious to know how one of these predators would kill a black bear, or even a brown one =)


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## Russ (Feb 8, 2016)

Sheilawisz said:


> Why is it that so many people in Mythic Scribes always focus on Humanity?
> 
> The original post in this thread does not mention humans. Caters describes some type of _humanoid_ predatory creature, and judging from the description it's clear that they have not developed any weapon that would give them a decisive advantage over any other species.
> 
> ...



We do suffer from using humans as a default sometimes.

But in this case, from another thread I know Lisa uses a bow and arrow to kill a bear, and they build shelter, and use things like feeding tubes.

My position is the same.

Give me a humanoid who can use a bow and arrow, build shelter, and use feeding tubes on the severely injured and you have the apex predator of any creature earth currently has other than humans.


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## ascanius (Feb 8, 2016)

I want to point something out.  Apex predator is simply a predator at the top of the food chain that is not prey to another predator.  To me it sounds like you have three apex predators, humanoids, cougars, and bears.  Just because one species kills another predator species in an opportunistic kill doesn't mean they are reduced on the food chain.

So if you have this food chain.  plant-> herbivore-> humanoid/cougar/bear, those three are apex predators.
however if the food chain is something like this.  plant-> herbivore-> humanoid-> cougar/bear then yeah your humanoid is not an apex predator.

I don't know who has read The Sparrow by  Mary Doria Russell but that book has a good example if you looking to play around with predator and prey among sentient species.   Good book too for those looking for an interesting sifi read.


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## caters (Feb 8, 2016)

Lisa in my story uses a bow and arrow to hunt. Robin has made bows and arrows for himself when he had to survive in nature for 21 years. Lisa also makes no sound and uses IR night vision to help her hunt.

The bow and arrow gives her an advantage to killing prey far away.

The complete silence makes the prey think that there is no danger until it is too late.

The IR night vision gives her an advantage to spotting both prey and predators.

Deer are Lisa's main prey although she does have the strength to carry a bear over relatively short distances.

She has the skill to aim the bow and arrow right at where the bear's vital organs are. She normally goes for the heart so that her prey dies as soon as possible and because the brain is a hard organ to aim for and even with great aim there would still be the problem of her prey surviving the brain injury and how to get through the skull in the first place. Sometimes her aim is a little off and she goes for the lungs or the stomach. If the prey can't breathe, it will die in minutes. It will die a little slower if the stomach gets injured because while HCl is a very strong acid, it takes quite a bit of HCl leakage for autodigestion(which is when the animal is literally digesting itself) to get to a point where the animal can't survive.


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## Demesnedenoir (Feb 8, 2016)

Unarmed solo human vs bear or cougar is pretty much the same... trouble for an unarmed human assuming its a death match. Great ape? Yeah, forget about it. Like beating a wookie in chess. 

Interesting to note, the scenario above about the human just "showing up" is similar to a great many horror movie psycho and monsters. heh heh. 

And yes, the original post said humanoids, in the fantasy universe that is an extremely broad category.


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## caters (Feb 8, 2016)

Humanoid may be a broad category but all humanoids have human-like anatomy or are at least derived from humans.

In this case it is both.

The humanoids in my story have human-like anatomy but are more muscular and they have 2 hearts and circulatory systems. This means that just because 1 circulatory system is down does not mean that the humanoid will inevitably die from cardiovascular disease. In fact it will stay healthy unless the other circulatory system is down. 2 circulatory systems also means that 2 blood types are possible in the same humanoid without an adverse reaction. They also have increased intracranial space which helps prevent brain injury from infection and also increases oxygen transport and fluid balance in the brain whenever it swells up whether that is from injury or infection or something else that would irritate the brain and cause it to swell up.

I used the human body to design these humanoids. This is what I started with:







The first 2 of these 5 females are both what I used to design the gender neutral stage of these humanoids. The other 3 are female child, female adolescent, and female adult.







I used this to design the internal anatomy of these humanoids, namely the 2 hearts and circulatory systems.

And this is just for the female alone. I used similar images to design the internal and external anatomy of the males in every stage of their life.


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## Sheilawisz (Feb 8, 2016)

Oh, if they have invented bows and arrows then that changes everything.

Even the most basic weapons like arrows and spears would allow a physically weak humanoid species to kill almost any ordinary animal. They could hunt in groups in order to surround a large beast before killing it, even though some of them could die in the process and they could also become occasional victims of cougars and other things.

In this case, there is no doubt that they would be the dominant predators.

Sorry Caters, I was under the impression that you had imagined some kind of dangerous Fantasy predator and you intended to make them compete against ordinary animals. I have a weakness for that kind of thing (the Fantasy predator, I mean) and I have my own Aylar creatures to prove that.

What are your creatures called?


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## caters (Feb 9, 2016)

I am not sure what to call these humanoids. Some writers have suggested that I could just call them humanoids like I have done so far. Others have suggested making a new species name based on the characteristics of the species.


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## Sheilawisz (Feb 11, 2016)

Hey Caters.

Your creatures definitely need a name of their own, because they are pretty unique considering all those differences that they have inside of their bodies. They are just as alien as Wookies or Klingons, which means you have to call them something special so your readers do not start comparing them to us Earth people all the time.

How tall can they get to be?

I was reading carefully the text provided by the image that Ireth posted in this thread, and even though I understand that it was written with humorous intention I wanted to have my own fun criticizing it here:

_1- They eat capsaicin for fun:_ First, nobody can tolerate pure Capsaicin. Also, it turns out that all bird species can eat even the hottest peppers and nothing happens to them… They are immune to Capsaicin.

_2- A human can keep fighting for hours even after you shoot it:_ Same for many other species, like bears and wolves. It all depends on what part of the body receives the impact. Hitting the right spot, even the small pellet from a high-powered Air rifle can cause the death of any person.

_3- Removing a limb will not fatally incapacitate humans, always destroy the head:_ Actually, people that have lost a leg in some type of accident or attack can bleed to death in a matter of minutes.

_4- Human bites can be fatally infectious even to other humans:_ Same for the bites of many other animal species, because there are always bacteria involved. Rat bites are particularly dangerous, not to mention the Komodo Dragon bites.

_5- Humans can and will use improvised weapons:_ Yeah, same for other primate species.

_6- Our endurance, shock resistance and ability to recover from injury is absurdly high compared to almost any other animal:_ We recover from severe injuries only thanks to medical attention. Without it, a broken leg may never be the same again and even a minor injury can result in life-threatening infection. If the same medical assistance is provided to other animals, they recover incredibly well too.

_7- And by god, we will eat anything:_ We can eat grass and hay, but our digestive systems cannot process such food in the same way that cows and horses do. You would starve to death if all you had to eat was grass and flowers, and also people have become gravely sick from eating unusual things during times of great starvation.

Not to mention that without certain critical nutrients, the human body soon develops severe diseases like Scurvy and Pellagra.

The persistence hunting is true. However, other species are capable of it as well and today very few people can chase a prey for dozens of miles until it finally surrenders.

Our only true advantage in this world is the fact that we have hands, and the necessary intelligence to develop technology that our hands allow us to build. I believe that if dolphins had hands they would be building stuff too, and the same goes for the incredibly smart ravens and other species as well.

So no, despite the fact that we are a powerful species we are not some type of unbelievable wonder.


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## caters (Feb 11, 2016)

Well these humanoids can get as tall as 12 feet in some cases and as small as 2 feet in others. With these unusually short and tall humanoids, everything is bigger or smaller in proportion.

They all start off the size of a newborn baby(20 inches long).

During their gender neutral stage they develop very fast. This is due to their large brains.

Development:

Birth:

It can't do much at this stage except cry, sleep, and nurse. However crying is not a sign of hunger at all in these babies so if a hungry baby is crying, it must be something besides hunger causing it to cry.

3 months:

It can sit without support and even say single words like "hungry", "hurt", "play", "mom", and "dad"

6 months:

It can walk with support at this point(also known as cruising) and say phrases like "head hurts", "I'm hungry" and even short sentences like "I love you mom"

9 months:

At this point they can walk without support and ask questions like "Why do I hurt?" and "What's that?"

1 year:

At a year old they can run and jump and even start to read.

1-5 years:

During this time they start to learn why they are hurt and how to prevent it in the future.

At 5 years the external genitalia start to appear. They also start discovering their powers. At first they have to say out loud things like "Activate IR vision" or "Activate flight" but later on as they use those powers more and more they get to a point where they only need to think about activating a power in order to activate it.

At 15 years adolescence starts for both males and females. During this time the amount of muscularity and strength increases Adolescence ends at 25 years. They are adults at 26 years.

They live longer than humans and some have semi-immortality meaning they can die from anything but age.

Pregnancy for a single baby is just as long as in a human, that is 9 months. For every extra baby in that pregnancy another 3 months is added between births. They can have up to 12 babies in a single pregnancy so 1 pregnancy can last for 3.5 years in rare cases.

Adult females with 1 impatient hungry baby that have triplets or more can grow a 3rd breast in a few weeks. During that time the adult female with babies will have to either soothe the baby until at least 1 of her babies is full, have another adult female soothe it or even have another adult female nurse the impatient baby. After that 3 babies can nurse at a time which makes the feeding sessions much shorter. However this 3rd breast is the limit as to how many can grow in any normal humanoid. Some can have more than that because less mammary tissue was lost during fetal development.


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