# Italics For Thought



## teacup (Aug 15, 2013)

I looked for a similar thread, but couldn't find one, so here I am. FatCat had a different view on this than me. It was interesting to see another perspective on it, so I thought I'd start this thread to see everyone's thoughts. It could be helpful or just interesting.

This applies to both reading and writing: What do we all prefer, and why? Italics for thought, or not?

Do you find it amateurish? Does it, if going for a deep POV, ruin the effect? Does it work well weaved in with a deep POV? Does it just seem unneeded? etc. 

I for one think that it can work well with a deep POV, and like to think that I accomplish this quite well, too.

A quick, random example I pulled from my WIP. 

"He gritted his teeth, though not at the cold. _Skylar Vespear. _He was not at..."

as opposed to:

"He gritted his teeth, though not at the cold, but at Skylar Vespear. He was not at..."

I think that this gives it more effect, as it stands alone, and draws the attention. Also you're given exactly what he's thinking. He's not just angry at Skylar, it's right there in his mind, at the front of his thoughts. Feel free to argue this, and if needed I can find a different example.


So, thoughts?


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## Ireth (Aug 15, 2013)

I like using italics for thoughts, as well as "voices in the head" that a character's own thoughts may argue with, but as with all things they should be used in moderation.

Also, teeny comment about your example: the word "though" in the second excerpt really isn't needed when you have the "but" right there. Or you could go the opposite way, and keep the "though" while removing the "but".

"He gritted his teeth, though not at the cold -- at Skylar Vespear."


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## T.Allen.Smith (Aug 15, 2013)

There is an idea, among many, that agents & editors feel italics used for thought is amateurish. I've read many works that use them in this regard and they don't bother me as a reader. It's a stylistic choice unless you're submitting to traditional publishers. If that's the case, it may behoove you to take notice of industry standards. I'm not convinced italics used in this manner is always looked down upon though, or even if this is considered a standard.

For me, it boils down to a difference between drawing attention to the thoughts with the use of italics, or embedding them within the narrative and not making them noticeable, but still understood as thoughts. If I may offer my own example.... It lacks context so please forgive anything that seems to lack clarity.



> Down the gentle spiral of the stair, they continued deeper into the ground. Short jabs and parries rang out like bells, the noise of clashing metal magnified in tight confines. Drippings that moments ago ran free across the surface of stone now frosted over, slowing the water's descent. A smell of age-old decay, more akin to the scent of rotting wood than flesh, filled his nostrils. They neared the main tomb. His breath billowed a pale cloud into the stale air. The sweat on his skin chilled.  Too cold. Odd for summer months.



Where this line...


> Too cold. Odd for summer months.


...is intended to be understood as thought. Does it add anything to italicize those two sentences? I personally don't believe that's the case, but it's a matter of opinion.

Just for further information.... The complete scene above was originally written with the thoughts set apart as italics. I changed them once the chapter was completed (quick little mini-edits I do at each chapter's end) and I feel the scene works better without the change in font. I'd rather shoot for a seamless transition, from regular narrative to thought, than use italics as an indicator. I don't want the reader to notice the writing on any level....but that just my preference.


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## Caged Maiden (Aug 15, 2013)

I'm not a fan of italics.  I think italics should be used for letters, but not thoughts.  I don't think it's distracting to do thoughts as regular text, as long as you make it clear it's a thought.  For example, from my text:

     Vin disengaged the axe, retreating a step to regroup.  With senses heightened from adrenaline, he caught the sound of shuffling feet behind him and narrowly dodged an incoming axe from another foreigner.  He regretted giving the men the chance to walk away.  If he attacked first, one would have been dead before the others could react.  Perhaps he had grown soft with age.

     Loathing being called an old man, even by himself, Vin beckoned for vitality he knew he still possessed.  He spent years telling himself everything was as it should be and he had nothing to prove, that the sacrifices he made were the price of freedom.  After all, what good did a seat in the senate do for a man who felt more comfortable in a sweaty shirt than a velvet doublet?


Okay, so the thing I find most distracting when I read, is the constant shifts in tense associated with internal thoughts.  I don't believe the thoughts in my above text are distracting, they blend with the action of the sequence. But, to instead write:

     Vin disengaged the axe, retreating a step to regroup.  With senses heightened from adrenaline, he caught the sound of shuffling feet behind him and narrowly dodged an incoming axe from another foreigner.  He regretted giving the men the chance to walk away.  If he attacked first, one would have been dead before the others could react.  _Perhaps I've grown soft with age._

     Loathing being called an old man, even by himself, Vin beckoned for vitality he knew he still possessed.  He spent years telling himself everything was as it should be and he had nothing to prove, that the sacrifices he made were the price of freedom.  _After all, what good does a seat in the senate do for a man who feels more comfortable in a sweaty shirt than a velvet doublet?_


To me, that isn't as good and reads weird because it switches to present tense in internal thoughts.  That's why it appears amateurish to me.  When youk eep it all in past tense, it reads smoother and needs no italics.


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## teacup (Aug 15, 2013)

I should add that I think italics are fine in moderation. 
I wouldn't like to see something with italics used nearly every time a character has a thought, or reacts to something. I try to use a deep POV, with the majority of the thoughts embedded into the text, but with italics used for certain things.


So then where are they all? If Skylar’s land was full of these things then why not Arrinor? _I should have listened. _Skylar was right, and now he was a Werewolf. A beast. He wasn’t even human anymore, not entirely. He hungered for blood and meat. He hungered for Cruor.

Here the first 2 sentences can be made into italics, heck, most of the paragraph can be. What I don't like to see is that, with italics used most of the time. I prefer to do a bit of a mix, like this. The italicized part, I think, brings that to the very front of the reader's mind, and it is made clear that it's at the front of the character's mind, too.

Look at that, opposed to this:
_
So then where are they all? If Skylar’s land is full of these things then why not Arrinor?_ _I should have listened. Skylar  was right, and now I'm a Werewolf._ _A beast._ _I'm not even human  anymore_,_ not entirely. _He hungered for blood and meat. He hungered for  Cruor.

or

...things then why not Arrinor? He should have listened. Skylar was right, and now he was a Werewolf.


The overuse of italics, I think, looks amateurish in some cases like this. In the second example, with no italics, it works fine, it flows, but the part which was italicized no longer stands out, it's no longer the character's most upfront thought. This works great many times, but sometimes I would like to give the exact thought for these reasons. Also, I find that italics used in moderation do not upset the flow.


I might have to edit some of mine out regardless, though, and if editors and publishers won't allow it, I may have to edit all of them into normal text.






T. Allen. Smith:


> Down the gentle spiral of the stair, they continued deeper into the  ground. Short jabs and parries rang out like bells, the noise of  clashing metal magnified in tight confines. Drippings that moments ago  ran free across the surface of stone now frosted over, slowing the  water's descent. A smell of age-old decay, more akin to the scent of  rotting wood than flesh, filled his nostrils. They neared the main tomb.  His breath billowed a pale cloud in the stale air. The sweat on his  skin chilled.  Too cold. Odd for summer months.



No, italics here do not add much to it. However, that whole excerpt is not thought, only the last two sentences are. If, say, the whole excerpt was thought in a deep POV style and you wanted those last two parts to stand out and to be shown to be right at the front of the character's mind, I then believe that italics work well. They then set those thoughts aside from the rest of the guy's thoughts. Though, of course, leaving them all in normal text works fine.


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## Asura Levi (Aug 15, 2013)

Personally I like italics, specially in dialogues. You can separate them from the 'said' words without breaking the flux.

"- Sure I will join you in the battle my liege, it will be an honour to be part of your personal huard. _Right behind you where I can plant a nice looking dagger at your back._"

Of course you don't need to use in all situations where he is thinking/having internal monologue but to make it clear when he is talking to someone. 
I don't mind reading it and I found in plenty of well know authors, no amateurish at all. As with all the resources you have, it must be used wisely.


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## Devor (Aug 15, 2013)

teacup said:


> "He gritted his teeth, though not at the cold. _Skylar Vespear. _He was not at..."
> 
> as opposed to:
> 
> "He gritted his teeth, though not at the cold, but at Skylar Vespear. He was not at..."



First, this isn't correct. In this case it would be opposed to the same passage without italics:

 - He gritted his teeth, though not at the cold. Skylar Vespear. He was not at...

But the two are frequently used in conjunction with each other.  GRRM only uses italics for a few characters, but he still maintains a heavy 3rd person POV. Specifically in GoT, he uses italics for the quotes Arya draws upon to get through tight spots, and for the manipulative thoughts that form in Tyrion's head. That is, both characters have a kind of life-in-your-head mentality which makes it right for them compared to other characters in the story.

I don't mind the italics, myself, but I have seen them used to replace the deep POV. I think I understand why authors who rely on them too heavily are sometimes seen as having a rough and disjointed POV. My advice is to make sure you understand why and when you want to use them, and to make sure it's distinct from using a normal deep POV.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 15, 2013)

In first-person present, italics for thought are completely unnecessary. In third-person past, I like them because thoughts tend to switch to first-person present. It just makes it easier for people to grasp that it's a thought.

The way Caged Maiden kept everything outside of quotes in the narrator's POV works as well, but I don't think it's amateurish to have thoughts expressed in first-person present unless it's overdone and the reader's jumping constantly from narrator to character thought.



@Ninja Devor,

I noticed GRRM uses them more with Tyrion as well. It's funny since I was introduced to GoT through HBO, and finally started reading because season 3 ended mid-book. Yes, that's a good example since some character POVs use italics more than others, and there's a specific reason behind it.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 15, 2013)

I think it's important to look at audience expectations.  For epic fantasy, it seems like a lot of the bestselling authors utilize italics.  This usage by the big names, to my way of thinking, defines it as an acceptable practice.  It's hard for a publisher of epic fantasy to say, "I know GRRM does it, but it's amateurish."

If you're writing a different genre, different standards may apply.


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## TWErvin2 (Aug 15, 2013)

I am unsure how the 'italics for thought is okay if used in moderation' works.

Does that mean some thoughts are italicized and some are not? Or that there are very few thoughts used in the story, thus a moderate need for italics? 

If a writer doesn't need (or choose) to use italics all of the time for thoughts, why use them at all?

I tend to use limited italics for stressed words in dialogue, and for sections off set from the main storyline. (Some of my novels have what I call Chapter Starts, and are italicized).

Really, though, it's up to the writer (and publisher). Different publishers have house rules that they tend to follow.

Things get really tricky when there are thoughts, and telepathy/mental communication of various sorts, along with internal thoughts and verbal communication.

If you check out Kevin Hearne's _Iron Druid Chronicles_, you can see various methods employed, including <communicated content>  when the main character, Atticus, is communicating mentally with his Irish Wolfhound, Oberon.

While there may be some agents/publishers that would be put off by use of italics (or not) for thoughts, just as there would be some readers, if it's incorporated logically and consistently, there shouldn't be a problem.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 15, 2013)

> I am unsure how the 'italics for thought is okay if used in moderation' works.
> 
> Does that mean some thoughts are italicized and some are not? Or that there are very few thoughts used in the story, thus a moderate need for italics?



Not speaking for those who brought up the issue, but here's my interpretation:

I think it comes down to how often you resort to direct internal speech rather than how you convey it.  If my character sees an attractive girl, I can relate that by either of the following:

A direct thought such as: _Man, she's hot!_

OR

Telling: It struck him how incredibly hot the girl was.

OR

Showing: His heart raced at the sight of her, and he wiped his sweaty hands on his pants.

Not a fantastic example, admittedly, but I think it's enough to illustrate the point.  (And not that there aren't additional methods...)

I think the concept of moderation refers to only resorting to direct internal thought in certain instances.


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## teacup (Aug 15, 2013)

TW:
The way I do it is I only have some thoughts italicized, for different purposes depending on the writing around it. I don't have large sections of inner monologue, instead I'd have that written as a deep pov. I use the italicized parts for specific thoughts at the front of the characters minds, and sometimes as reactions to speech, as I've seen GRRM do. 
I can have it as a deep pov, and certain specific thoughts in italics, for effects of different kinds.

I'm sorry if I'm not explaining this well

Also, I use italics for communication between minds like you were saying, but think that I've set that communication and the character's specific thoughts apart well within the text.


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## teacup (Aug 15, 2013)

Yes, I think BWFoster got it quite right, though I wouldn't say I resort to it. I do it by choice. I could have it as a full deep pov, but I think that the certain italicized parts that I do at times work well. I don't just have them here there and everywhere randomly, I choose sections where I think they work well, and go with it. 
That's just my preference in writing, and, to be honest, I suppose in reading too.


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## druidofwinter (Aug 15, 2013)

I always use italics to convey the thoughts of my characters. I had seen italics used for thoughts in several published books, and so i just repeated my favorite authors.


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## Graylorne (Aug 15, 2013)

I use italics easily. For direct thoughts, for letters, for outlandish words, for names of ships, taverns and such.

I find Asura Levi's example perfectly fine, though I would place the italics outside the quotation marks.

Of course, my MC's aren't constantly talking by themselves. Different is, when my MC is speaking with his magic sword. The soul in the sword answers in thoughts, so his part of the dialogue is in italics. Same when my death priest is talking with ghosts, only then they're both in italics. I find that readers tend to like this, because it is easier to distinguish from vocal conversations.


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## Steerpike (Aug 15, 2013)

I don't use italics for thoughts, even in the case of direct thoughts. To play off BWFoster's examples, for a character seeing an attractive woman I might write:

The woman crossed the sidewalk in front of John. Man, she was hot. You didn't see many like that in the middle of Kansas.

It's about half a step removed from the direct thought example used above, but not 'telling,' either. It is the character's thoughts that are being represented.


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## DassaultMirage (Aug 15, 2013)

Go on ladies and germs. I have a character in my story talking to spellbound beasts via mental link, in their thoughts, so I am deliberating with mahself on whether to continue or not using italics


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## shwabadi (Aug 15, 2013)

DassaultMirage said:


> Go on ladies and germs. I have a character in my story talking to spellbound beasts via mental link, in their thoughts, so I am deliberating with mahself on whether to continue or not using italics



For something like that I'd think just using speech marks would be best. Unless the thoughts aren't clear words but rather vague sort of orders. In that case I think it's more down to how you write it as to what method you'd use.

In terms of thoughts in general I'd say use italics sparingly, working the thoughts into normal text if possible.


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## SeverinR (Aug 15, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> The woman crossed the sidewalk in front of John. Man, she was hot. You didn't see many like that in the middle of Kansas.
> .


Now I got the beach boys song in my head.
I wish they all could be California girrrrls.


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## Caged Maiden (Aug 15, 2013)

I also use italics only for stressed words and things like ship names and book titles or song titles.  I'll say those are very rare in my stories.  But a good point, ship names are italicized and I also use italics for song lyrics or letters to differentiate from dialogue, thoughts or narrative.  

I personally dislike tense switches because they remind me I'm reading a book, by drawing attention, but that's probably personal preference.  If a book was well written, I'd like to think I wouldn't notice.  in fact, I just mentioned "Privilege of the Sword".  When I went back to it because I loved it so much, i was shocked to find it ws written infirst person.  I hadn't even noticed!


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## teacup (Aug 15, 2013)

I don't think there is much anyone can say against talking via mental link  and using italics, other than to use speech marks, in some people's preference.

The point I am making is that I  think that it is possible to use a deep POV and also these direct  internal thoughts (which I just prefer to use italics for) effectively  in the prose. I believe I do this quite well, as I don't use the direct  thoughts here there and everywhere, but only where I feel it effective  and in a case where the character would be placing that certain thought  above all else.
Example: A person might think about a man killing his  parents, the man's features, his parents screams, the revenge he wants,  and the actual man he wants revenge on. All of these thoughts can be  shown via a deep POV, but, say for example I wanted the character to  really be fixated on the killer above all else, I can have him think  directly of the killer in italics. 




Basically, I'm trying to use a deep POV but with _some _internal monologue as italics for certain effects and to make certain thoughts stand out as being at the very front of the character's mind, rather than using internal monologues for near every thought.


Please, argue this all you like. I'd like to see people's thoughts on if there's anything wrong with doing it in this way.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 15, 2013)

> I'd like to see people's thoughts on if there's anything wrong with doing it in this way.



And, when you share these thoughts, please do so in italics so it's easier to differentiate.



Sorry, couldn't resist...


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## Daichungak (Aug 16, 2013)

In the case of telepathic communication I find it easiest to understand, and would use myself if needed, the <telepathic thought here> approach.  This is the hardest to confuse and when you have dialog being spoken and dialog being thought between several characters avoiding confusion will be a challenge.

Plus the angle bracket put the image in my mind of a turbaned county fair psychic touching her head and closing her eyes to read a fortune.


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