# Limits on Villain motivation



## Miskatonic (May 28, 2015)

Are we pretty limited on the main motivations for why a villain chooses their path? Revenge, world domination, just wants to make people suffer, zealot wanting to create a utopia that is really a nightmare, in the service of an evil power with aforementioned motivations, etc. 

If you've managed to come up with an original or less common motivation for a villain to choose that path then please share it.


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## Russ (May 28, 2015)

There are absolutely no limits on villain  motivation.  I am surprised you think that there are.


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## Miskatonic (May 28, 2015)

That can't be put into the above categories? Please share.


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## Russ (May 28, 2015)

Just think of all the normal human motivations and you have your list...love, greed, pride, fear, patriotism, xenophobia...the list is literally endless.


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## Miskatonic (May 28, 2015)

Russ said:


> Just think of all the normal human motivations and you have your list...love, greed, pride, fear, patriotism, xenophobia...the list is literally endless.



I understand all that, but what it eventually manifests itself into is what I mean by being limited. They experience that and what do they choose to do about it?


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## X Equestris (May 28, 2015)

Villains can have the same sort of motivations as heroes.  In fact, I think having more...down to earth motivations makes the villain more complex.  

The main villain of the novel I'm planning is motivated by a sense of patriotism.  His country is caught in a two front war that it is slowly losing.  So he decides to kidnap a mage child who has unique powers and intends to use him to summon and bind an army of demons, in the hope that this army will be able to defeat his nation's enemies.  There's no intent for conquest, just defending his country.


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## fantastic (May 28, 2015)

There are many things.

A villain can want to be loved by certain person, villain wants to be important person, villain wants to achieve anything but to do so requires doing something hero does not approve of, villain feels some people should not live, villain feels humanity should be slaves to some other species, villain burns city to get inspiration for writing a poem (Maybe you heard of this one?), villain is element of nature that always existed and is an obstacle from heroes point of view, villain does not do anything but heroes are not satisfied until he is defeated,...

Anything someone does can make him be considered a villain by someone. It depends.


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## Russ (May 28, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> I understand all that, but what it eventually manifests itself into is what I mean by being limited. They experience that and what do they choose to do about it?



That is not what you asked at all.  You asked about motivations.

But the answer as to how something manifests itself is equally as broad.  A villain can work on anything from destroying the universe to stealing a goat.


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## wordwalker (May 28, 2015)

Sooo many options. What the villain _wants_ can be anything; in many ways all that really matters is that it's something he cares _enough_ about to cross the line for. I did a blog post trying to organize a few of them, combining the Sith boast with the Seven Deadly Sins: How Many Sides to the Dark Side

But since then I've come up with one starting point about my villains, what I call the "Thunderbolt Ross" lesson (just compare the Gen. Ross that's shown in the last two Hulk movies): a villain's either trying to _stop_ the hero (or anyone else, that the hero defends) out of some kind of fear of what they'll cause, or it's what the villain's plan needs from the hero/others or would affect them that the hero has to stop.


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## X Equestris (May 28, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> I understand all that, but what it eventually manifests itself into is what I mean by being limited. They experience that and what do they choose to do about it?



You seem to be talking more about goals and the villain's methods of achieving his or her goals.


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## Laurence (May 28, 2015)

A villain may do what he does because he thinks it will impress a woman.


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## Tom (May 28, 2015)

I have a villain who wants to create a better world for outcasts, as he was one himself. 

Another takes members of magically augmented races who were once human and returns them to normal, because he feels they've lost touch with their humanity, and will live happier lives in their original form.


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## Miskatonic (May 28, 2015)

Russ said:


> That is not what you asked at all.  You asked about motivations.
> 
> But the answer as to how something manifests itself is equally as broad.  A villain can work on anything from destroying the universe to stealing a goat.



My bad, I should have worded it more clearly.


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## Miskatonic (May 28, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> I have a villain who wants to create a better world for outcasts, as he was one himself.
> 
> Another takes members of magically augmented races who were once human and returns them to normal, because he feels they've lost touch with their humanity, and will live happier lives in their original form.



And what makes your character a villain then?


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## Miskatonic (May 28, 2015)

X Equestris said:


> You seem to be talking more about goals and the villain's methods of achieving his or her goals.



Yep I botched my first post.


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## goldhawk (May 28, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> And what makes your character a villain then?



Slavery: forcing people to do what the villain wants.


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## Tom (May 28, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> And what makes your character a villain then?



The first achieves his goals by using magic to kill off people he perceives as oppressors. He also leads a rebellion against his country, and destabilizes its government, which leaves it vulnerable to attack from its enemies. 

The second practices rogue magic that was outlawed after the augmented races were created. (It was deemed unethical and dangerous). Additionally, he doesn't ask the consent of those he works it on, instead assuming they'll be happier later even though they may object to it now.


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## Feo Takahari (May 28, 2015)

I noticed you're missing a pretty common one: wanting to make the pain stop. For instance, I read a story once where the villain experiences the suffering of everything in the entire multiverse, and wants to destroy everything in order to end it. (He makes his point by showing the heroes visions of realities where evil ran unchecked and mass pain and suffering resulted.)


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## WooHooMan (May 28, 2015)

I'm a little confused as to what this thread is about.  Are you saying that the actions a character can do that is considered "villainous" is too limiting?  Like there's not enough variety in "villainous" behavior?

Or are you saying that there is a preset list of possible motives that a villain can have?  If that's what you're saying, then I disagree.


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## Spider (May 28, 2015)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought a villain is someone whose "evil" actions or motives oppose our hero. Is "villain" synonymous with "antagonist"? Because a character whose actions could be perceived as relatable or heroic yet still serve to hinder the protagonist could be an antagonist yet not a villain (or at least that's what I've gathered). 

Of course, that isn't to say that every villain would be our 100% evil dark lord, but I figured that a villain is someone who causes trouble or harm, or who has bad intentions. In terms of "villainous" motivations, I guess I could see how that could be limiting. But as for an antagonist's motivations, the possibilities are endless.


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## goldhawk (May 28, 2015)

Spider said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought a villain is someone whose "evil" actions or motives oppose our hero. Is "villain" synonymous with "antagonist"? Because a character whose actions could be perceived as relatable or heroic yet still serve to hinder the protagonist could be an antagonist yet not a villain (or at least that's what I've gathered).
> 
> Of course, that isn't to say that every villain would be our 100% evil dark lord, but I figured that a villain is someone who causes trouble or harm, or who has bad intentions. In terms of "villainous" motivations, I guess I could see how that could be limiting. But as for an antagonist's motivations, the possibilities are endless.



A villain is someone who harms others. A hero is someone who makes a sacrifice to help others.

A protagonist is the main doer in a story. An antagonist opposes the protagonist.

A protagonist can be a hero or a villain. An antagonist can be a hero or a villain. Both can be heroes. Both can be villains.

As far as good and evil goes: remember what is good for the lion is evil for the sheep.


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## WooHooMan (May 28, 2015)

Spider said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought a villain is someone whose "evil" actions or motives oppose our hero. Is "villain" synonymous with "antagonist"?



As far as I can tell, we're talking about villains not antagonists.  The two aren't synonymous but they often coincide.


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## Miskatonic (May 28, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> I'm a little confused as to what this thread is about.  Are you saying that the actions a character can do that is considered "villainous" is too limiting?  Like there's not enough variety in "villainous" behavior?
> 
> Or are you saying that there is a preset list of possible motives that a villain can have?  If that's what you're saying, then I disagree.



Talking about the end game. I shouldn't have used motivations, bad word choice.


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## Spider (May 28, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> As far as I can tell, we're talking about villains not antagonists.  The two aren't synonymous but they often coincide.



Alright. So if a villain is someone who harms others, or who has the intent of doing damage or causing trouble, then wouldn’t the archetype of the character be a limit on his or her motivations? Not saying that there’s a preset list of motives for the villain, but it seems like the motives would have to be of a particular nature. (Maybe I’m looking at this from the wrong angle.)

I guess what I’m asking is when we draw a line between a villain and any other antagonist, could that line be limiting to the character's motivations?

Edit: I suppose the same question applies to the end game. Even if it doesn't, I'm still curious ^^


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## WooHooMan (May 28, 2015)

Spider said:


> Alright. So if a villain is someone who harms others, or who has the intent of doing damage or causing trouble, then wouldn’t the archetype of the character be a limit on his or her motivations? Not saying that there’s a preset list of motives for the villain, but it seems like the motives would have to be of a particular nature.



In my experience, there are many reasons why and how you could cause harm to others.  Really, I think the only limits would be circumstance and the character's nature, and neither of those variables would be "limiting" as far as I could tell.  

I mean there _are_ limits but there's a lot of room to work in original motivations within those limits.  That's what I'm trying to say.


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## Penpilot (May 29, 2015)

I'm still not clear on the question, but I'll give it a go.

Hero and Villain love the Prince. The Prince loves the Hero. Villain tells the Prince a lie about the Hero that causes the Prince and Hero to break up. How many different lies can the Villain have told? 

What else could the Villain have done to to break them up? Get the Hero to take up a 20 year long quest that will separate them then hide all the letters the Hero sends back. OR Wait 5 years and then tell the Prince the Hero is probably not coming back and declare their love for the Prince and try to win them over.

The ways to go about this are in my mind pretty limitless, bound only by the imagination.


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## thedarknessrising (Jun 2, 2015)

The villain in my story is a dwarf military leader that just wants more living area for his people, sort of like Hitler, but without the genocide. He's doing what he can to give his people more land, but has to declare war on the people of that land to do so.


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## Saigonnus (Jun 2, 2015)

thedarknessrising said:


> The villain in my story is a dwarf military leader that just wants more living area for his people, sort of like Hitler, but without the genocide.



Let me guess... He uses a maul or big hammer and happens to be a captain named Krunch. *snicker*

Seriously, the motivations a villain has is near limitless, but is generally dictated by their environment, upbringing and how their life unfolded. I tend to despise villains who are "evil for the sake of being evil" types, without some underlying reason. 

Landgrab seems a good enough reason to make war on your neighbors, it has been a human motivation for millenia. How it is done is what will ultimately make it interesting or not. If the dwarves have been oppressed for decades, sent to live in the most inhospitable places like the native Americans or Jews during WWII, then i would actually side with him emotionally, it will come down to methods that make him a villain or not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gurkhal (Jun 2, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> Are we pretty limited on the main motivations for why a villain chooses their path? Revenge, world domination, just wants to make people suffer, zealot wanting to create a utopia that is really a nightmare, in the service of an evil power with aforementioned motivations, etc.
> 
> If you've managed to come up with an original or less common motivation for a villain to choose that path then please share it.



Here's my main villain for the story I'm working towards, and right now I'm in the plot construction part. 

Note that all names are placeholders at this moment as nothing has been finalized. Also note that "Herr" is the in-world, and Swedish, equivalent to the English "Sir". 

His name is Herr Tygar Eskilsson and is a knight and brother of Herr Tyrgood Eskilsson and the two who are sons of the late Herr Eskil Gormsson. Tygar is motivated by being running things to the best of his abilities as well as breaking free from his brother's shadow. When he succeds his brother to a castle he feels that to become his own man he must make a break with his brother's friends and favorites and that means ignoring a promise his brother made in regards to a knighthood to the protagonist, and putting a halt to the protagonist's career in the household guard. 

Its no more villainous than so. Possibly petty but not more. Also note that Tyrgard hasn't made any promise himself to the protagonist.


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## psychotick (Jun 2, 2015)

Hi,

You want strange? In The Lady's Man my villain was a ghost (more or less) that didn't even know it was dead and his total goal was to kill those that had harmed him in life - not for revenge but because the pain of those things was all that it could remember of its life (except that it wasn't even it's life!)

Cheers, Greg.


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## Saigonnus (Jun 2, 2015)

My principal villain doesn't exist. He did at one point, but after he died his principal followers realized that he was the only thing holding his people together, so have created an elaborate (magical) hoax to convince them he still lives. 

Their goal is survival, they need more breeding stock since the creatures natural male-female ratio is 3:1. They do this by raiding villages and towns and carting away the female population for their "transformation" into one of the creatures. (The are a created race to begin with.)


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## WooHooMan (Jun 3, 2015)

Oh, wait, I forgot to mention my villains' "original" motivations.
I got two stories going right now that have clear-cut villains...

Villain 1 is motivated by a desire to prove that destiny exists.  And also he has a messiah complex but that's hardly original.

Villain 2 is motivated by xenocentrism.  He has a romanticized view of a foreign culture and is obsessed with the stereotypes that he has created.  He also has a low opinion of modern people who belong to that culture, believing that they have "lost their way" or are too westernized.


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