# This is for research only, tee hee hee.



## Aidan of the tavern (Jan 22, 2012)

Ok folks its like this.  Basically, my protag gets captured by assassins to be taken to the antag for interrogation.  After a quick scuffle the assassin stabs the protag with a dagger coated with a drug/poison which I made up for ease and simplicity.  The question is what part of the body would a professional assassin stab in order to introduce the drug to the system, but not cause any major damage to any vital organs or anything?


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## Sheilawisz (Jan 22, 2012)

Hello Aidan, in this case the best option would be to simple cause a cut in the victim's skin with the poisoned dagger, it's not really necessary to stab =)


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jan 22, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> Hello Aidan, in this case the best option would be to simple cause a cut in the victim's skin with the poisoned dagger, it's not really necessary to stab =)



Brilliant, thank you.


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## Devor (Jan 22, 2012)

It would depend a lot, I expect, on the type of poison and how much was on the blade.  It would have to be a pretty strong and powerful poison to kill from a cut, since typical blood-flow patterns would push the venom back out.  Even with a virus like AIDS, I'm pretty sure that kind of contact would only a small chance of infecting the victim (random guess, based on just a few facts I know, I'd say less than 10%).

A pin-prick is a little different from a cut, going deeper with a small hole, but you can't do that with a knife.  I'd suggest - having no idea what kind of poison it is - the shoulder might be a good place to stab.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jan 22, 2012)

Devor said:


> It would depend a lot, I expect, on the type of poison and how much was on the blade.  It would have to be a pretty strong and powerful poison to kill from a cut, since typical blood-flow patterns would push the venom back out.  Even with a virus like AIDS, I'm pretty sure that kind of contact would only a small chance of infecting the victim (random guess, based on just a few facts I know, I'd say less than 10%).
> 
> A pin-prick is a little different from a cut, going deeper with a small hole, but you can't do that with a knife.  I'd suggest - having no idea what kind of poison it is - the shoulder might be a good place to stab.



Thanks, I might give him some kind of the needle or something.  The poison can change for convenience, at the moment its just something to knock him out for a few hours.


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## Sheilawisz (Jan 22, 2012)

There are some poisons in the natural world so powerful that they can kill by mere skin contact...


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## Anders Ã„mting (Jan 22, 2012)

If the assassin is just trying to drug the MC, rather then murder him, stabbing him with a dagger seems a bit excessive. 

I'd just have him use a syringe or some other kind of specialized tool. Seems more professional that way.


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## Giant (Jan 22, 2012)

You could always have your assassins just make him drink something. That kind of assures that the poison will run through his body. Maybe they just stir the drink with a dagger that was dipped in the poison or venom of an animal.


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## Graham Irwin (Jan 22, 2012)

What if the assassin had a deadly powder in his hand that he "sneezed" or "coughed" into his victim's airstream as he walked past?

Stabbing is rather obvious. Unlike Assassin's Creed, where you can stab someone and just hide for a few minutes and everyone forgets about it


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jan 22, 2012)

Giant said:


> You could always have your assassins just make him drink something. That kind of assures that the poison will run through his body. Maybe they just stir the drink with a dagger that was dipped in the poison or venom of an animal.



Nice idea, but quite similar to something that happens earlier in the story.  I was thinking more about having like a fast action scene that ends with the protag being poisoned, but the readers don't find out until the next chapter that it wasn't lethal.


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## Giant (Jan 22, 2012)

Could your assassins release a poisonous animal onto the protag? Perhaps a scorpion, snake, some weird frog? Or you could do like a Wrath of Kahn thing where a worm or parasite attaches itself to the protag. You could leave the chapter ending with the assassins dropping some creature in the room, then when the protag returns in the next chapter, his personality could be noticeably different to the reader.


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## Devor (Jan 22, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> There are some poisons in the natural world so powerful that they can kill by mere skin contact...



Oh absolutely.  But they work differently.  They access the body through the pores instead of being inserted into the blood stream.  And there are definitely poisons which are concentrated enough to enter the blood stream from even a paper cut.  But for the most part, poisons that powerful are extremely rare, and I find that giving such rare poisons to every would be assassin in every piece of fantasy literature gets out of hand.  It's better writing, in my opinion, to work with the limitations of a more believable poison.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jan 22, 2012)

Thanks guys, good answers coming in.  I am quite stubborn about it being an action scene though, also quite keen on having it done by my master assassin character, to create a bit of personal hate between them.


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## Ravana (Jan 23, 2012)

The assassin would stab the victim over the head with a sock filled with sand. No professional going for a capture would risk an unexpected reaction to the poison, or accidentally killing his target in the scuffle.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Jan 23, 2012)

Thinking about it, the traditional way to do this would be to simply hold a rag soaked in something like chloroform - you force the victim to breathe vapors that have a strong anesthetic effect. After all, even heroes need to breathe.



Aidan of the tavern said:


> Thanks guys, good answers coming in.  I am quite stubborn about it being an action scene though, also quite keen on having it done by my master assassin character, to create a bit of personal hate between them.



Perhaps some kind of dart, then?



Ravana said:


> The assassin would stab the victim over the head with a sock filled with sand. No professional going for a capture would risk an unexpected reaction to the poison, or accidentally killing his target in the scuffle.



If you want to be realistic about it, then giving someone a blow to the head is probably even more dangerous. In real life, people don't actually get knocked out for long periods of time only to wake up just fine aside from a headache, like they do in movies. In fact, if you pass out from a blow and remain unconcious for more then five minutes, you will probably suffer at least a concussion and possibly traumatic brain injury with cerebral bleeding. 

Of course, reliably knocking someone out with a drug without killing them isn't easy either - you need to dose the stuff with meticulous precision, because if you use too little you only annoy your victim and if you use too much, the victim dies. Still, I'm assuming a guy who is trained to kill people will have an intimate understanding of poisons. (And also know that hitting someone in the head with a heavy blunt object is usually a good way to induce death.)

Anyway, I'm not saying we can't take artistic liberties with that sort of thing. But if I was aiming for realism, I'd go with the drugs.


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## Devor (Jan 23, 2012)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> Thanks, I might give him some kind of the needle or something.  The poison can change for convenience, at the moment its just something to knock him out for a few hours.



Again, in a big knife fight, I think the shoulder would be the best place to stab someone without killing them.

If you want a more intense action scene, a common method of subduing someone would be to grapple the person in what's called a "come along" position, holding their hand behind their back with one hand on their shoulder.  You can google it.  From that position, it would be easy to then stab a poisoned needle into the back of the hand (not a syringe which didn't exist until recently).  I think that would show your assassin's skill level and abilities the most.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jan 23, 2012)

Hmmm, I tempted about making it a syringe or something.


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## The Blue Lotus (Jan 23, 2012)

Well there are two places that leap forward in my mind. 

The fatty under part of the arm the "double wave" area, or a glancing blow to the side just above the hip bone.
A third option now that I think about it would be the thigh but that is much harder to pull off in a fight with people moving about quickly.

Hope that helps.


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## Ravana (Jan 24, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> If you want to be realistic about it, then giving someone a blow to the head is probably even more dangerous. In real life, people don't actually get knocked out for long periods of time only to wake up just fine aside from a headache, like they do in movies. In fact, if you pass out from a blow and remain unconcious for more then five minutes, you will probably suffer at least a concussion and possibly traumatic brain injury with cerebral bleeding.



True, and I did think of that. But the odds of an accidental kill–at least short-term: I doubt the assassin or his employers are worried about long-term prognosis–are far lower, and the victim doesn't need to be rendered unconscious for long. Or at all: just needs to be dazed long enough to get him restrained properly. I'd also add that a "master" assassin would never allow the encounter to become a "scuffle" in the first place, so he'd have the choice of where to precisely place his blow, no matter what he was using, and how hard, which would essentially reduce the chances of an accidental kill to nil, unless he somehow contrived to trip at the very instant of delivering the blow–which will remain a danger regardless of what he uses.

(This, of course, assumes that a "master assassin" is a plausible construct in the first place: you'll discover that, historically, most assassins had kill totals of around… well, one. But that's a different discussion.)



> Of course, reliably knocking someone out with a drug without killing them isn't easy either - you need to dose the stuff with meticulous precision, because if you use too little you only annoy your victim and if you use too much, the victim dies. Still, I'm assuming a guy who is trained to kill people will have an intimate understanding of poisons.



A guy trained to sedate animals in a zoo or in the wild has at least as intimate an understanding of his craft, and yet it remains an amazingly tricky thing to do, as much art as science. That's even when the exact body mass of the animal is known, as when it's in a zoo. One thing they never show you in _Wild Kingdom_ is how many shots they have to make–each on a different animal: you'd never shoot the same one twice–before they achieve a successful one.

Poisoning somebody with the intent of killing him is hard enough; there, at least, you don't have to worry about applying too much, only too little. And it's still by far the _least_ reliable way to make a kill. I'm unaware of the _Hashishin_ ever using it (though it would hardly surprise me), and the ninja certainly didn't rely on it (I know of more documented attempts made by firearms, in fact). For the most part, ancient "blade" poisons were auxiliary measures… smear something on your weapon to cause a wound to become septic and kill the victim over time. 

A big part of the problem is delivering enough poison with a blade to make a difference. Another big part is onset time: vanishingly few poisons act within seconds, or even minutes… and the situation under discussion calls for the former. One of the most toxic of natural substances, tetrodotoxin, requires between 15 minutes and 4 hours before symptoms appear (and, conversely, is so often lethal that it is inapplicable for present purposes). Curare, used to poison arrows and darts for hunting small monkeys, requires the hunter to pursue his target for several minutes after achieving a hit; while it can be delivered in small enough doses not to kill (it is used as an anesthetic in some surgeries, in fact), calculating how much to deliver to guarantee survival would be tricky at best. Snake venoms take minutes to hours even when delivered by a snake, and it would be highly unusual for an envenomed weapon to get a comparable amount into the bloodstream, even if this were considered a desirable thing.

Which is problem number three: when delivering by weapon, the amount the target receives will depend on how much of the surface area of the weapon penetrates into underlying tissue. You can have your dose calculated perfectly, but unless you get 100% of the delivery surface past the target's skin–and clothing, and anything else–you'll be off. That's also before considering such matters as subcutaneous fat or, on the other extreme, hitting a major blood vessel. Will a shallow cut serve your purposes? If so, a deep one probably won't. And so on.

So, pretty much, if you want your assailant to be using a knockout poison, you're going to have to invent one. And if you want it to be delivered during a fight, it had better be by a flunky, not a "master." The master can have prepared the poison and the weapon–but a master would never give the target a chance to react. 

Me, I'll stick with my weighted sock. 

-

Actually, a blow to the thigh is one of the easiest ones to perform in a fight: people are less likely to protect it, and in most fighting stances one leg is out in front of the body slightly. The simplest way, assuming the attacker is intending to use a drugged weapon, would be to have the weapon palmed in the off-hand and to close to a grapple: all you need to do at that point is move the hand forward, and the target will never see it coming. However, complications of the drug aside, this also risks hitting the femoral artery–so the weapon of choice better not be very long, though in that situation it wouldn't have to be… an inch would be plenty. Which would also have the virtue of making it easier to control the dose: you just ram the whole thing in to the hilt.


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## SeverinR (Jan 24, 2012)

Alright, the problems with cliche ways to "knock out or disable a person":

1.hit em in the head; just as likely to kill the person as knock them out. (see blunt force trauma)

2.poison; poison(non-lethal) takes a while to take affect and must be in a correct dose, something that knocks out at the right dose can kill if to much is given, and the method of delivery is unreliable. They might get half a dose or almost nothing. Breathing poisons work faster(chloroform) but also it is faster to overdose too. (Theres a reason modern surgeries have a team of people in there, to balance the person in slumber but not let them lose thier ability to breathe.)  Also gases have the possibility to knockout the attacker also, ie ether, the victim and the attacker will breathe it, possibly both could pass out.
Slipping them a micky; the most reliable, placed in something they will consume all of, ensures they get the dose, and if proper dose will knock them out, but it can take several minutes or hours to take affect.  The headace after words is much like a hangover, because the "medicine" overwelmed the liver to keep the blood pure, just like when drinking alcohol.  Thirst would be the same too, also the more fluids(other then more alcohol) the victim drinks the faster they will recover. (delutes the poison, and takes it away from the brain.)

3.stabbing in a safe place; shoulder-unfortunately the brachial arteries and nerves run through the shoulder, hit the artery the person will bleed to death(7th fastest way to kill...I think) hit the nerve the person will never use the arm or hand again.
thigh: good big muscle, arteries and veins are safe, slice a muscle and the person will never be as strong as they were without reattaching the muscle. This can be minimized (Imo) by keeping the blade vertical, part the muscles rather then cutting them.

Sleeper hold; used by police forces for many years, it does have the problem of not knowing if a person is faking it or actually out cold, too long and the person will have brain damage or die. (The reason most police restrict the practice anymore.)

Since this is fantasy, how about a magic taser? The affects I hear are much like hitting your funny bone hard, numbness and tingling make it difficult to move them properly, disoriented unable to speak or scream.

To disable my MC, a mage used an electric based spell, delivered by placing hands over both sides of the head, knocking her out.
I merely point out the dangers, the writer can make each one work "perfectly" but knowing the possibilities might help prevent 
unrealistic occurences and give possible handicaps.


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## SeverinR (Jan 24, 2012)

I believe a hollow reed was used to deliver medicines, not sure how far back that went though.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jan 24, 2012)

Ravana said:


> True, and I did think of that. But the odds of an accidental kill—at least short-term: I doubt the assassin or his employers are worried about long-term prognosis—are far lower, and the victim doesn't need to be rendered unconscious for long. Or at all: just needs to be dazed long enough to get him restrained properly. I'd also add that a "master" assassin would never allow the encounter to become a "scuffle" in the first place, so he'd have the choice of where to precisely place his blow, no matter what he was using, and how hard, which would essentially reduce the chances of an accidental kill to nil, unless he somehow contrived to trip at the very instant of delivering the blow—which will remain a danger regardless of what he uses.
> 
> (This, of course, assumes that a "master assassin" is a plausible construct in the first place: you'll discover that, historically, most assassins had kill totals of around… well, one. But that's a different discussion.)



The reason it becomes a scuffle in the first place is because the vulnerable protag (who for a change cannot wield a sword after 3 weeks training) gets attacked and injured by predators and the assassins are forced to intervene to protect him because they need him alive.  While they are doing this the master takes the oppertunity to subdue the protag (with their anonimity gone they aren't just going to save him then wave good bye and disappear again)


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jan 24, 2012)

SeverinR said:


> 1.hit em in the head; just as likely to kill the person as knock them out. (see blunt force trauma)



In real life, yes. In fiction, it's a standard trope that a blow to the head can knock someone unconscious for a while, without permanent damage, and I don't think most people would have a problem with it any more than they do in any other fiction we've ever seen. (Especially in fantasy fiction, where there's always the possibility of magical healing.)


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jan 24, 2012)

Devor said:


> Again, in a big knife fight, I think the shoulder would be the best place to stab someone without killing them.
> 
> If you want a more intense action scene, a common method of subduing someone would be to grapple the person in what's called a "come along" position, holding their hand behind their back with one hand on their shoulder.  You can google it.  From that position, it would be easy to then stab a poisoned needle into the back of the hand (not a syringe which didn't exist until recently).  I think that would show your assassin's skill level and abilities the most.



Devor, you may just have saved me from from my own conundrum!  I'll google the come along position in a second, but I think I like it.  If the protag doesn't know what hit him, and the readers are worried that he is dead, then thats a bonus.


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## Ravana (Jan 24, 2012)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> The reason it becomes a scuffle in the first place is because the vulnerable protag (who for a change cannot wield a sword after 3 weeks training) gets attacked and injured by predators and the assassins are forced to intervene to protect him because they need him alive.  While they are doing this the master takes the oppertunity to subdue the protag (with their anonimity gone they aren't just going to save him then wave good bye and disappear again)



Predators? Animal or human? –Not that it matters. The assassins (plural?) save the MC, then walk up all concerned, say "Hey, buddy, are you all right? Why don't you come along with us and we'll get you fixed up." Worst case, this puts them right next to the MC, in contact with him; even if he refuses, they're positioned to bundle him up without significant further struggle. If you still want to use the knockout drug, have the person talking to him palm a needle, pat him on the shoulder… game over. The target may not even realize he's been stabbed, if he's hurting in enough other places (doubly so if the drug combines a local anesthetic effect); the "concerned" helpers can then remain with him long enough for it to take effect. 

If I were doing it that way, I wouldn't even reveal the target had been tagged until after he keels over. The assassin grins, puts the palmed needle back away.…


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jan 25, 2012)

Ravana said:


> Predators? Animal or human? —Not that it matters. The assassins (plural?) save the MC, then walk up all concerned, say "Hey, buddy, are you all right? Why don't you come along with us and we'll get you fixed up." Worst case, this puts them right next to the MC, in contact with him; even if he refuses, they're positioned to bundle him up without significant further struggle. If you still want to use the knockout drug, have the person talking to him palm a needle, pat him on the shoulder… game over. The target may not even realize he's been stabbed, if he's hurting in enough other places (doubly so if the drug combines a local anesthetic effect); the "concerned" helpers can then remain with him long enough for it to take effect.
> 
> If I were doing it that way, I wouldn't even reveal the target had been tagged until after he keels over. The assassin grins, puts the palmed needle back away.…



Hmm, I like the idea of him not knowing what happened until he keels over.  Trouble is he already had a run in with the assassins earlier in the book.


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## Ravana (Jan 26, 2012)

They're beginning to sound more like Keystone Kops than professionals.…


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## Devor (Jan 26, 2012)

Ravana said:


> They're beginning to sound more like Keystone Kops than professionals.…



Honestly, I was thinking that, too, even though I suggested it.  I was picturing a one-on-one fight, equal opponents, head on.  Grab the arm, twist it and turn so that you're behind him, stab the hand.  But in the scenario above, with multiple attackers and a wounded protag, I think they'd be more likely to just overpower him and use restraints like shackles and rope, and skip the poison entirely.  Throwing a bag over his head and using asphyxiation would knock him out, too... or I think so, anyways.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jan 26, 2012)

Devor said:


> Honestly, I was thinking that, too, even though I suggested it.  I was picturing a one-on-one fight, equal opponents, head on.  Grab the arm, twist it and turn so that you're behind him, stab the hand.  But in the scenario above, with multiple attackers and a wounded protag, I think they'd be more likely to just overpower him and use restraints like shackles and rope, and skip the poison entirely.  Throwing a bag over his head and using asphyxiation would knock him out, too... or I think so, anyways.



I think I will have it so it basically does become a 1 on 1 between master and protrag, while the other assassins are finishing off the predators.  Probably a very short duel, due to protags bad sword work.  He isn't badly injured and gets vicious when backed in a corner, so I'll go with your idea Devor, thanks.


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## Graham Irwin (Jan 26, 2012)

I love how this is the only place this discussion could occur without eyebrows being raised :wink:


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## SeverinR (Jan 26, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> In real life, yes. In fiction, it's a standard trope that a blow to the head can knock someone unconscious for a while, without permanent damage, and I don't think most people would have a problem with it any more than they do in any other fiction we've ever seen. (Especially in fantasy fiction, where there's always the possibility of magical healing.)



yep, I am alot more accepting of it in scifi and fantasy then in real life drama.  
I just wanted to give realism to the tropes.  Realism can change a cliche into something new.

I will offer one possibility, since I can't try it, I don't know if it works.
a potato in a sock to the head, possibly hard enough to disrupt the brain, but soft enough to give some upon impact.
I would definately say it would stun, not sure about the knock out.


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## SeverinR (Jan 26, 2012)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> Devor, you may just have saved me from from my own conundrum!  I'll google the come along position in a second, but I think I like it.  If the protag doesn't know what hit him, and the readers are worried that he is dead, then thats a bonus.



The shock to the head my MC got, also knocked out the link to her dragonet so the dragonet went frantic back at the lair, contributing to the belief that the MC is dead. Moments later I did have an experienced mage offer the possiblity it was one of a few magics that disrupted the link. 

Added suspense is definately a bonus.


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## Caged Maiden (Feb 15, 2012)

In renaissance Venice a woman was put to death after several of her "clients" became very wealthy young widows.  It turns out she was including arsenic in her cosmetics and the husbands of the women wearing the make-up were dying from contact.  I used a similar tactic for an assassin of mine.  She used various powders, oils and infusions to accomplish her goals, but again, dosing can be tricky. It's one thing to introduce a drug that might make someone sleepy, and completely another to "knock someone out" like general anesthesia.  
Common things that are around us everywhere can have profound effects on the body, and there are many "herb bibles" that can give you ideas.  Many roots to common plants are very toxic, and some, like foxglove are entirely toxic.


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## Devor (Feb 15, 2012)

SeverinR said:


> I will offer one possibility, since I can't try it, I don't know if it works.
> a potato in a sock to the head, possibly hard enough to disrupt the brain, but soft enough to give some upon impact.
> I would definately say it would stun, not sure about the knock out.



Believe it or not, the potato is a new-world crop, even despite all the Irish famines.  That may may not matter for some fantasy stories, but in some heavily European stories, at least a few readers will notice.


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## Ravana (Feb 16, 2012)

Substitute a turnip, and you're good to go.


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## Jastius (Sep 1, 2013)

be careful with shoulder stabs. there were a few kings assassinated tat way. your shoulder has arteries that can have you bleeding to death.
why stab anyone? why not just throw something into  their eyes to absorb directly into the blood stream?


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## Abbas-Al-Morim (Sep 7, 2013)

If the _assassins_ want him alive wouldn't that make them kidnappers? Unless they kill him, they aren't assassins. 

If it's their profession so to speak (e.g. they're part of a secret brotherhood of killers) then why would they go after the protagonist? Wouldn't it be better to send someone more specialized? While the skillsets for kidnapping and killing overlap to a certain degree, there are some fundamentally different skills in play.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Sep 8, 2013)

Abbas-Al-Morim said:


> If the _assassins_ want him alive wouldn't that make them kidnappers? Unless they kill him, they aren't assassins.
> 
> If it's their profession so to speak (e.g. they're part of a secret brotherhood of killers) then why would they go after the protagonist? Wouldn't it be better to send someone more specialized? While the skillsets for kidnapping and killing overlap to a certain degree, there are some fundamentally different skills in play.



True, but they kill people as well, and I couldn't think of a good blanket term for them.  The authorities condemn them as assassin's because it's the punchiest term for antagonising them in the public eye.  Or something like that .


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## Homicida (Sep 13, 2013)

What if your protag was in a tavern?  If I were paired with other assassins and "stalking my prey", as I can imagine they would,  I might send a "tavern wench" over to his table with a drink.  She might sit on his lap, set her drink down next to his while making small talk.  She wraps her long arms around his neck, whispering in his ear to distract him.  Then she picks up his drink and continues around the bar as if she has no more interest in him.  He picks up her tainted drink, not realizing the ruse, and drinks the poison...


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## Aidan of the tavern (Sep 13, 2013)

Homicida said:


> What if your protag was in a tavern?  If I were paired with other assassins and "stalking my prey", as I can imagine they would,  I might send a "tavern wench" over to his table with a drink.  She might sit on his lap, set her drink down next to his while making small talk.  She wraps her long arms around his neck, whispering in his ear to distract him.  Then she picks up his drink and continues around the bar as if she has no more interest in him.  He picks up her tainted drink, not realizing the ruse, and drinks the poison...



That's actually a really good idea.  Yes, I'll consider it.


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