# Is magic always "Fireball Throwing"?



## Hans

Reading through the magic threads I take it, a lot of writers here are influenced by role playing games where a mage is walking artillery.
In some older works magic is more subtle. It is more about getting the spirits to do your things. While the fingerclapping magic does exist it is often more like "wow, something unexplainable just happened without witness".
Personally I like the older approach better, but that's just my personal opinion. So, which way do you take for your world and stories?


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## Sparkie

Funny you should bring this up.  In my WIP magic is much like the "older approach."  Getting spirits to take a side is of primary significance, with what might be termed 'battle magic' taking a backseat to good ol' fashioned melee and raged combat.

I find the RPG style of magic a little stale when it's used in books.  James Barclay's Raven stories come to mind.  I think he's a decent writer, but the overt, video gamish style of magic he uses seems a little corny to me.


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## writeshiek33

both  it depends on many factors of the story


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## Devor

Hans said:


> Personally I like the older approach better, but that's just my personal opinion. So, which way do you take for your world and stories?



I prefer a bit of both.  I think the tenor I've set up in my story requires a bit of both.  It's unfortunate, though, because I'm having a bit of a struggle figuring out what a "wizard" is really capable of.  The subtler aspects seem easier for me.

In my other story, a mythological piece, there's a completely different tact.  Magic is so real, and comes in so many very-well-defined varieties that it's almost in your face without the fireball mages you're referring to.  But the dozen-or-so magical varieties are clear and even intuitive, with set limitations and abilities, so it would be hard to call anyone a piece of artillery.


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## AeliusBlythe

I prefer if it's not, actually.  Not a fan of the fireball-throwing.  I don't find very obvious magic to be particularly believable.  It has to be something I could see happening in the real world for it to really have any effect on me.  Same reason I find serial killers scary and zombies funny.  

But then again, I do like Harry Potter.  But I didn't exactly read Harry Potter for the magic.  The characters and plotlines were strong enough to take center stage.  That is not true for all books.


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## Terra Arkay

My magic is mystery, spirit and pizazz rather than fire or deep-freeze. The magic in my story shall have something to do with the soul, a planet (yet to be named) and fireflies...  Though fire-ball throwing and what not shall be included in my world, the main focus for magic is the mystery of it.


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## Benjamin Clayborne

The magic in my WIP is more of the fireball-throwing variety, although it's (sort of) grounded scientifically so that it works in a very precise way. However the characters who can wield it 1) are the first people _in the world_ who have these abilities, and 2) have not had it for very long. There's a mage-battle in the book that is basically the first of its kind, and none of the characters have ever done that before, so they're sort of making it up as they go along.


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## Amanita

Interesting subject.
My magic has aspects of both as well. There are very subtle elements (well, most elements can be used in subtle and less subtle way but you know what I mean ) and very impressive ones. Subtle aspects of magic are fascinating but I like more impressive displays of power from time to time as well. I don't have any problems with realism there, I don't require magic to be such and means of causing great destruction are realistic after all.
Having never played games, they can't have influenced me, but movies have done so I believe.

My "problem" is the fact that I tend to sympathize with the people hit by the fireball (or whatever) way too much. Therefore, I often have moral issues with just enjoying myself with scenes of powerful battle magic. 
This might also be after effects of being told that playing war is wrong by my parents as a child.  When I was about six or seven I used to play Lego with a boy from the neighborhood and they were quite shocked, when we started equipping our Lego boats with weapons. I've never done that again but in fantasy, sometimes there's no way past war.


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## Codey Amprim

Fireballs!? Talkin' about Fireballs!?  I think the two categories discussed here are just the basic templates for magical systems. It is rather hard to create a new system all in its own, but I think I'm satisfied with the Fireball Method.

In my WIP, the Fireball Method fits and works well, but it also isn't the only "power" in the Realm, either. I just find the whole thing fun and exciting, as it's meant to be. In my eyes, the other method of the seclusive, subtle magics seem feeble and, quite frankly, boring to me. Sure I can get into it after reading page after page and try to go along with it, but my heart lies with the powerful magics.

And they don't have to be so bland either! Or destructive!

It kind of seems to me that from this thread the Fireball Method seems to be the run-of-the-mill, idiotic stereotype, whilist the subtle seems more sophisticated. Honestly, I think it's how they are used within the world and all of its factors working together.

But, then again, I'm a bit of a pyromaniac x)


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## Amanita

> But, then again, I'm a bit of a pyromaniac x)



Maybe fire doesn't always have to come in balls. I especially like the multi-coloured flames created by throwing salts into a hot flame. Really inspiring for magical stuff.


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## sashamerideth

I have devised a magic that has more in common with telekeness and other related psychic powers, as well as alterations to the physical.

For example, one character is a giant, with impervious skin, another shuts down neural functions.  I have others that influence emotional response, but only one that has what may be considered a fireball magic, but requires energy to come from somewhere.


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## Elder the Dwarf

Codey Amprim said:


> Fireballs!? Talkin' about Fireballs!?



Haha you did not just go Allen Iverson/Jim Mora Sr. all over these forums...

As for me, in my current work, the magic will be much more subtle as magic users aren't exactly in a good position at the moment.  However, fireballs certainly exist, but are not common at this stage in the history of my world.


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## Solomon Tan

I think if your magic is "throwing fireballs" and your mages are basically walking canons, then you need to restrict them with rules so that they are not overly powerful.. For myself, I do not enjoy reading a wizard that can solve everything with overly destructive magic.

Similarly, magic cannot be too weak or worthless, or else what's the point of mastering magic using years and years of your life, where a warrior can easily hack you to piece with an axe. 

My magic system in my world have both the throw fireball, and the more subtle magic. Using rune system and activating it.. So, the wizard need to draw the rune first, and then activating it, so the certain magic will 'appear'.


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## Ravana

Magic can be anything–that's the beauty (and appeal) of it. 

Having said that… I tend to avoid the more direct, showier manifestations–for much the same reason I rarely write about firearms: too easy. I like subtler approaches, often combined with outright misdirection and psychological warfare. It's far less intimidating, from my point of view, to be defeated by someone bombarding you with magical artillery than it is to be defeated by someone you know used magic to do it, but you aren't quite sure _how_. That kind of magician can strike at you in ways you can never fully anticipate or prepare for–and, as a result, often doesn't have to strike at you at all, as he's already won the mental battle.

Also, that kind of magician can often accomplish similar effects with far less power investment. An example from Glen Cook's _Black Company_: combine a small invisibility spell, a utilitarian ward against insects, a hornet's nest… and an enclosed area. Instant grenade–and a selective one, at that.


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## Hans

Solomon Tan said:


> I think if your magic is "throwing fireballs" and your mages are basically walking canons, then you need to restrict them with rules so that they are not overly powerful.. For myself, I do not enjoy reading a wizard that can solve everything with overly destructive magic.


Or you give them a problem they can't solve with pure destructive power. What is he doing in a mystery? Tearing down the town knowing the guilty are among the dead?

I think mind reading and healing are bigger cheats than destruction. "Legolas, Boromir is dying. Quick, toss the healing potion."



> Similarly, magic cannot be too weak or worthless, or else what's the point of mastering magic using years and years of your life, where a warrior can easily hack you to piece with an axe.


Maybe for the same reasons a real world shaman devotes his live to an art that has no (provable) effect at all.


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## Ghost

I never noticed it before, but magic that affects perception and the mind seem to be my focus. Illusions, mesmerizing, runes that give a limited control over a person's actions, spirit possession are all different ones for different stories. I have story with a system for summoning demons, which seems pretty normal.

In my main project, you _could_ throw fireballs, but it's very complicated and you'd need extraordinary powers of concentration and decent knowledge of explosive materials. You couldn't do it for long or from far away. It has limited application (military, demolition...instant barbeques?), it's unsafe because of the instability, and there are simply better methods for getting things done without risking your eyebrows.

I don't have much of "mage as artillery" in AG. Magic requires a couple of years to learn, and I couldn't replace magicians fast enough to make up for casualties if I did it that way. With spells done on the fly in stressful situations, friendly fire would be a strong possibility. Magic falls somewhere between a trade and a profession in that world, and it's meant to supplement technology, medicine, and weapons, not to completely replace them.

I don't mind either type of magic as long as there are limits and/or mystery. Knowing magic is unrestricted, easy to access, and works 100% of the time isn't interesting. If the story is good, I'll probably get over it. The only type of magic I dislike is the hereditary kind. Magic users were just born special, dontcha know.


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## SeverinR

The common Wizard battle is fireballs or energy beams.

I create magic based on energy, the more powerful, the more energy it uses.  The wizard gets more efficient and can build some energy stores then the beginner, but there is always a finite energy to draw from. Wizard linking(one cannon, one battery) is possible but not common.

The easiest magic is the mentalist, all magic is from within, mental attacks, mind over body magic, mind energy healing the body type.

For a funeral I did have wizard fireworks, "prismatic sprays" of mostly harmless lights, also fireballs bursting in the air, high on flash, small on damage.

I dislike earth altering magic, summoning giant demons to wade through the enemies armies without fear, Summoning anything is a slow process unless the summoned is alright with being pulled away, then its basically a teleport with a message.
a massive wave of energy destroying thousands of people can not happen in my world except maybe in a unique circumstance.
One case I can think of, is a community of people joining around an alter to share their energy(like in Avatar) to provide vast energy for a mage to use.  But I have not used this idea yet.


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## Solomon Tan

Ouroboros said:


> I don't have much of "mage as artillery" in AG. Magic requires a couple of years to learn, and I couldn't replace magicians fast enough to make up for casualties if I did it that way. With spells done on the fly in stressful situations, friendly fire would be a strong possibility. Magic falls somewhere between a trade and a profession in that world, and it's meant to supplement technology, medicine, and weapons, not to completely replace them.



Yeah, friendly fire.. That can be a good restriction.. A powerful wizard throwing a massive fireball and ended up burning the main character, and the monsters... Wonderful end to the fantasy story. haha

I agreed with Hans too on healing spells.. Thus my world that I'm making, had no healing spells.. There will be healing potions but it's more to tonic like stuffs.. Like it helps in healing of open wounds or stop bleeding, but it doesn't make a critically injured person jumped up from his bed and started fighting as if nothing had happened before...

A thinker for everyone.. Anyone considered the psychological effects of this kind of healing spell or a resurrection spell? You get hacked with an axe across the chest that shattered your breast plate by a orc, bleeding to death, and your ally jump in and cast a powerful healing magic, and you can jump back into the battle, only to be hacked again, and healed and hacked and heal... 

Man, I'll rather be the healer than the fighter.. you experienced death like many times a day.....


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## Reaver

*Magick for sale*

An ever bigger question to ask is the morality behind a mage's actions, especially a powerful one. What if there were an exceptionally powerful wizard offering his services to anyone, no questions asked? "You want the King turned into a pile of ash? No problem. That'll be 20,000 Gold Talents, please."  Of course, this is the great thing about writing fantasy fiction...anything is possible.


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## Sheilawisz

The beauty of Magic is that it can be anything, that's why it's mysterious and fascinating and in my stories magic is a mystical, totally supernatural power that has no relation at all with things like science or nature... I really dislike magic systems about "magic is science" or when magic is something taken from nature, that just does not make sense to me!!

Subtle and mysterious magic has something fascinating about it (like the magic in Lord of the Rings) and I like it, but I like even more the kind of devastating and awful magic that appears in my stories =)


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## Reaver

Isn't nature a mystical and mysterious force? In my opinion, it can be a great source of power for magic. I mean, do we truly know why nature works the way it does? I agree that science isn't a very good idea to use for a source of magic. Science doesn't have the answers to everything. What about the life force of all living things as a source of magic? Isn't what "The Force" is in the Star Wars universe? My question is (for anyone who cares to answer)...is this a good thing to use in stories or has it been done too many times? Any guidance or opinions is greatly appreciated.


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## Sheilawisz

That has been done many times, but if you like that style of magic system then go for it!! You must feel comfortable with whatever magic that you use in your stories, you need to really like it =)


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## Reaver

I appreciate your take on this, Sheilawisz. I am currently using this lifeforce idea as one of many sources of magic in my stories. I guess my twist on it is that there is a group of evil mages that murder other beings (both sentient and non-sentient) and collect this lifeforce, using it to cast their dark magic.


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## Ravana

Reaver said:


> An ever bigger question to ask is the morality behind a mage's actions, especially a powerful one. What if there were an exceptionally powerful wizard offering his services to anyone, no questions asked? "You want the King turned into a pile of ash? No problem. That'll be 20,000 Gold Talents, please."  Of course, this is the great thing about writing fantasy fiction...anything is possible.



I always like to consider the economic effects of magic, too–economics in general being something most world-builders overlook (well, okay, are bored stiff by… but still…). We too easily say "magic changes everything," without taking into account just what "everything" means–such as, for instance, the possibility that the commonly-seen scarcity of mages is a consequence of them all being lynched by tinkers and farriers they've put out of work. Or at least craft guilds. Conversely, what _does_ the average mage do for a living? I don't recall Gandalf charging fees for putting on his fireworks displays.…

My comment on the exceptionally powerful wizard, though, would be the same one I always like to keep in mind about alchemists: if he can really do what he claims, what does he need _your_ money for?


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## Solomon Tan

Gandalf don't earn money, he magically turns stones into gold.. because he's the powerful wizard! hahahaha. just a joke.. 

Reaver: I do plan to use human life force as a source of ultimate magical powers and also immortality, which is craved by almost every humans.. And this life force can be used for good or evil, depending on the bearer's intent.. 

Economic effects of magic.. yeah.. I do heard before that in the past, real life alchemists claimed that they can turn lead into gold by altering their properties.. And one reason they are arrested for their researches, is that their actions will tip the balance of the economics of the world, which was generally controlled by the rich and powerful. 

But then, if there are too much restrictions, then it's not going to be a fantasy story.. Maybe fantasy stories allows some unrealistic things to happen, like where do the wizard gets his money...


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## Sheilawisz

Reaver said:


> I appreciate your take on this, Sheilawisz. I am currently using this lifeforce idea as one of many sources of magic in my stories. I guess my twist on it is that there is a group of evil mages that murder other beings (both sentient and non-sentient) and collect this lifeforce, using it to cast their dark magic.


You're welcome, Reaver =) I like that idea of evil mages murdering creatures to steal their lifeforce and cast magic!! I have evil mages in my stories too...

Ravana: That's an interesting point about the economics of a world =) In my worlds, the common people use silver coins and sometimes diamonds and amethysts as money but the mages do not use money at all!! They don't need it even though they have cities and societies of their own, because they can take out of nowhere anything that they need or want- it's not that they "conjure" things out of thin air, I mean... they make things appear out of nowhere and that's all

They like to visit the cities of common people and they buy things just for fun like wine and plum juice (paying with silver coins that were taken out of nowhere) so the people like the mages sometimes =)

As an additional note about the name of this thread, my mages do not throw fireballs at their targets... they throw stuff much worse than that!!!


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## TWErvin2

My world has different types of spellcasters:

Wizards (air, fire, water, earth). I've not had a 'fireball' explode in any of my novels thus far, although one fire wizard did send up a ball of flame that separated, sending darts of it down into his enemy.

Then there are seers, witches, sorcerers, necromancers, enchanters, conjurerers, and healers. Some powers are subtle: seers can see the past and future, and draw memories and images from an individual's mind. Where as sorcerers can break limbs and rupture organs (such as eyeballs) of those he/she directs power at.

For every writer, it really depends on the world created and the place magic has in it. If magic fits the world and is handled properly, a reader will believe a wizard can toss around a fireball or two. Or they'd more readily believe sutle curses or spirit summonings being cast by users of magic.


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## Sheilawisz

TWErvin2 said:


> My world has different types of spellcasters:
> 
> Wizards (air, fire, water, earth). I've not had a 'fireball' explode in any of my novels thus far, although one fire wizard did send up a ball of flame that separated, sending darts of it down into his enemy.
> 
> Then there are seers, witches, sorcerers, necromancers, enchanters, conjurerers, and healers. Some powers are subtle: seers can see the past and future, and draw memories and images from an individual's mind. Where as sorcerers can break limbs and rupture organs (such as eyeballs) of those he/she directs power at.


That sounds great!! Your stories must be very interesting with such a collection of different magic users in your world =) I have several cultures of mages, but even though they are different in clothing, cities, government and society structure, they all are basically the same magic with similar powers and just a different... style


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## ascanius

I don't understand what everyone means by subtle versus in you face fireballs KABOOM!  I mean wouldn't the manner in which the magic is used be subtle or apparent and not the magic intrinsically.  Or do you mean the manner in which magic is achieved, chanting a spell versus whispering the name of the wind.  Or is subtle magic, magic that is not visibly apparent such as with Gandalf.


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## Seth son of Tom

sheila, i gotta say your mages sound quite intriguing.


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## HÃ«radÃ¯n

casting fire in my magic system is more like using a flamethrower because my magic system is based on atoms, so when my people are using magic they are really manipulating atoms. Fire is just making the atoms in the air vibrate so rapidly that they catch fire. Lightning is moving electrons around. Wind is just moving the atoms forward. And ice is stopping the atoms from vibrating. Etc.


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## Sheilawisz

ascanius said:


> I don't understand what everyone means by subtle versus in you face fireballs KABOOM!  I mean wouldn't the manner in which the magic is used be subtle or apparent and not the magic intrinsically.  Or do you mean the manner in which magic is achieved, chanting a spell versus whispering the name of the wind.  Or is subtle magic, magic that is not visibly apparent such as with Gandalf.


Ascanius, the difference between a subtle magic and the more blasty kind would be found in both ways that you have described, the way that it is used and the magic intrinsically =) Magic that is not always apparent like it happens with Gandalf is a good example of subtle magic (instead of Gandalf throwing a huge green lightning that kills ten thousand orcs in one blast!!) other example would be my magic system: my mages can deliver huge blasts and everything, but they have other powers that are invisible and subtle like a radiation-like thing capable of silently invading an entire world and killing those exposed within a few minutes

Combining both subtle style and blasty kind magic in the same system is possible and interesting =)



Seth son of Tom said:


> sheila, i gotta say your mages sound quite intriguing.


Thank you!! =)

RhÃ«adÃ¯n: What a cool name you have!! Your magic system sounds like science-style magic (which is not my favourite) but many would like that in my opinion... can they re arrange atoms to transform rocks into gold, or a person into a pumpkin??


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## Amanita

> capable of silently invading an entire world and killing those exposed within a few minutes


Well, that's not exactly what I'd call subtle. 
But I think both your magic system and RhÃ«adÃ¯n sound very interesting. Som if you like to share more on an extra-thread, I'm certainly going to comment.


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## Shadoe

RhÃ«adÃ¯n said:


> casting fire in my magic system is more like using a flamethrower because my magic system is based on atoms, so when my people are using magic they are really manipulating atoms. Fire is just making the atoms in the air vibrate so rapidly that they catch fire. Lightning is moving electrons around. Wind is just moving the atoms forward. And ice is stopping the atoms from vibrating. Etc.


That's very similar to my system. The magic-users can manipulate elements, they can make you grow old, or stop your heart, but fireballs... not so much.


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## Sheilawisz

Amanita said:


> Well, that's not exactly what I'd call subtle.
> But I think both your magic system and RhÃ«adÃ¯n sound very interesting. Som if you like to share more on an extra-thread, I'm certainly going to comment.


Thank you!! Well, the other things that they do are blasty kind and even when they do little tricks (like transforming people into crystal statues or something) violet sparks or a flash of white light are seen clearly, so the invisible radiation attacks are indeed their subtle stuff =)

Shadoe: That sounds cool, you mean like manipulating life itself??


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## Amanita

> The magic-users can manipulate elements, they can make you grow old, or stop your heart, but fireballs... not so much.


By elements do you mean chemical elements?  I'd really like to see someone else do this somewhere.


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## Stranger

I find that whenever I write a story in which mages can shoot fireballs out of their hands, it never ends well. 

"Ahh!!! My hair is on fire!"
"Ahh!!! YOUR hair is ALSO on fire!"
"Ahh!!! You know that map we need for our Very Important Journey To Save The World and Everything? On fire."


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## Steerpike

Stranger said:


> "Ahh!!! You know that map we need for our Very Important Journey To Save The World and Everything? On fire."



Heh. Yeah, people don't think about that stuff. It is fin in D&D-type games, too. The PCs swim across some body of water, or through some underground river, maybe using magic to help them breath. They get to the other side, and you inform them that their maps have been destroyed by the water. Then you ask "By the way, where do you keep your spell book?" and you can see the sinking realization on their faces.


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## Shadoe

Amanita said:


> By elements do you mean chemical elements?  I'd really like to see someone else do this somewhere.


I mean the basic building blocks of life. They can make plants grow, or people. Or slice a person to ribbons without tools.


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## ThinkerX

Been thinking about magic for use in fiction for a long while now (decades). 

Three premises or starting points:

First, I used to read up a great deal on the legitimate real world studies into paranormal/psionic phenomena/abilities - everything from ghosts stories to Rhine's ESP and TK experiments to Remote Viewing to...well, the list goes on and on.

Second, I did a lot of research into the way the ancients viewed magic.  The big goal for many of the magicians of antiquity was to gain control of a 'spirit' which could then be commanded to do wondrous things.  Some types of magic were possible without the aid of such a spirit, but, these magicians, by and large were deemed second raters (goetics)

Third, Lovecraft.  Lots of weird conjurations, baffling protections, and occult effects in Lovecraft.  

So...I took these premises, mixed them together, tossed in a few other things, and...

Way, way, back, the 'Ancient Aliens' showed up on earth, abducted large numbers of humans, and took them to a world they used as a sort of laboratory/zoo.  They performed a great many operations on many of these subjects, some crude, some subtle, many cruel.  At times they returned to earth and brought back additional specimens.  Dwarves and elves came out of these experiments.  So did magic - genetic modifications that resulted in 'enhanced' PSI ability in some people.

Those with enhanced PSI learned tricks, meditations, and formula that let them focus their abilities fairly precisely (spells).  However, compared to what they saw the aliens doing, these abilities were not all that great.  They also became aware of the 'spirit world' and some sought to make pacts with its denizens to increase their own power.  Some of these 'spirits' were relatively benign, others not so benign, and some were straight out of the Lovecraftian dimensions.

Time passed. The ancient aliens packed up shop and left, leaving behind their test subjects, humans and others.

In the time of my stories, about one person in a thousand has enough in the way of PSI ability to actually learn 'spells'.  Most do not; they go through life being abnormally lucky at dice, or with an infallible sense of direction, or with a knack for telling truth from lies.  Most of the others end up in the priesthood.  About one person in six with talent will actually seek out training as a magician - or about 1 in 10,000 of the general population (but the empires population is in the twenty million plus range, or about 2000 magicians).  A smaller number of these magicians - maybe a couple hundred throughout the empire - have greater than normal talent, and can work true wonders. The rest need their abilities 'enhanced' if they wish to do so. Chief of those alternatives was 'pacts with familiar spirits'.

It became apparent to the more ethical mages over a millenia ago that cutting deals with spirits - especially the Lovecraftian ones - wasn't exactly a wise thing to do.  They sought alternatives.  

One alternative, adopted very early on, when the ancient aliens were still a going concern - live in a place conducive to magic (nodes or ley lines).  These places tend to get declared Holy Ground, and usually have a temple or church parked on them.

A second alternative was to 'go mystical' - really focus on the magic, turn into a sort of monk.  It works...but...

A third alternative was the 'magic potion' route.  There are several of these, some with dubious effect, some that work well in the short term, but have long term health/sanity issues, and one or two that are 'cure or kill' type drugs (usually kill - but if you live, well, you got power).

Another alternative was the creation of a focus object (wizards staff, crystal ball, magic ring, ect).  Long drawn out uncertain process. And if said wizard lost the dang thing...

None of the 'enhancement options' are certain. Some can be combined - living in an area of greater magical potential with a focus object, for example.

Those with magical talent who join the clergy often end up in one of the mystical orders.  They become faith healers, exorcists, and the like. 

As to the 'fireball' bit...

...it is possible in this system.  These people live in a world of fire: hearth fires, candles, lanterns, torches.  Lots of oil and other flamables around - like kerosene type liquids - as a result.  With these substances, what is really dangerous is the *fumes* - they can be just like a bomb going off under the right conditions.  Which is pretty much how a 'fireball' in this system works - the wizard literally thows something doused in flamable liquid at the target, using a spell that creates a 'spark' which unleashes its explosive effect.  (sort of a magical grenade). Pyrokinesis.


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## Steerpike

I like the idea of magic actually being grounded in science and, ultimately, being a manipulation of the laws of the universe in accord with principles of science. I'm doing something similar with a magic system as well.

The one potential problem I foresee is that if you open that door, then the laws of science stampede through the doorway along with the rest of your ideas. For example, if you are going to have a magic system that is based on scientific principles, so that your magicians are really scientifically manipulating the physical universe (even if they may not realize it or understand it), then you have to deal with things like thermodynamics. If you move "magic" into the scientific realm as a manipulation of atoms or what have you, then you can't have spells that create something from nothing (mass of the system remains constant).

You could have a hybrid system, I suppose, but I'm not sure why one would.

In any event, the discussion is interesting because it looks like a few of us here are working magic as a sort of scientific enterprise rather than a black box of power for those who wield it.


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## Benjamin Clayborne

Steerpike said:


> I like the idea of magic actually being grounded in science and, ultimately, being a manipulation of the laws of the universe in accord with principles of science. I'm doing something similar with a magic system as well.
> 
> The one potential problem I foresee is that if you open that door, then the laws of science stampede through the doorway along with the rest of your ideas. For example, if you are going to have a magic system that is based on scientific principles, so that your magicians are really scientifically manipulating the physical universe (even if they may not realize it or understand it), then you have to deal with things like thermodynamics. If you move "magic" into the scientific realm as a manipulation of atoms or what have you, then you can't have spells that create something from nothing (mass of the system remains constant).
> 
> You could have a hybrid system, I suppose, but I'm not sure why one would.
> 
> In any event, the discussion is interesting because it looks like a few of us here are working magic as a sort of scientific enterprise rather than a black box of power for those who wield it.



The thermodynamics problem can be solved by postulating that (for example) their ability works by opening tiny wormholes into the sun, which gives them an essentially unlimited source of energy (which, thanks to mass-energy equivalence, allows them to create objects from "nothing"). The wormholes are _very_ small, so that the entire output of the sun doesn't pour through them, vaporizing the planet.


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## Steerpike

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> The thermodynamics problem can be solved by postulating that (for example) their ability works by opening tiny wormholes into the sun, which gives them an essentially unlimited source of energy (which, thanks to mass-energy equivalence, allows them to create objects from "nothing"). The wormholes are _very_ small, so that the entire output of the sun doesn't pour through them, vaporizing the planet.



That would certainly do it. Or you could provide some other mass/energy source within the framework of your magic system. Maybe even have something that opens inter-dimensionally, drawing on mass that exists in the other dimension and thus not violating thermodynamics because your own universe is essentially no longer a closed system.

There are ways you can do it; as a reader, if you're going down the scientific path I'd expect these sorts of issues to at least be acknowledged and addressed, and then once that is done I'd give quite a bit of leeway in terms of the author's creative solutions.


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## ThinkerX

> The one potential problem I foresee is that if you open that door, then the laws of science stampede through the doorway along with the rest of your ideas. For example, if you are going to have a magic system that is based on scientific principles, so that your magicians are really scientifically manipulating the physical universe (even if they may not realize it or understand it), then you have to deal with things like thermodynamics. If you move "magic" into the scientific realm as a manipulation of atoms or what have you, then you can't have spells that create something from nothing (mass of the system remains constant).



And there, you touch on another of the themes that interest me, and which feature into my stories: that of change over time.

In all too many fantasy settings, the culture/technology is static: take a knowledgable person from 2000 years in the past on one of them, drop him or her into the present, and aside from old cities destroyed, new ones rebuilt, and a new dynasty occupying the throne, its all pretty much the same - same feudal system (with maybe an odd twist or three) same magics (again with maybe a twist or three), same gods, with maybe a few new ones added or subtracted.  Real, real unlikely to find a transformation from oil filled lanterns to electric lights, or anything resembling modern medicine instead of faith healing, or firearms replacing swords and bows.  

On the one hand, low tech 'farmer societies' can and have lasted for thousands of years.  On the other, even in those societies, there are technological and social changes that ... make things interesting, so to speak.

That is, in fact what is in the process of what is happening with the major nation of my world:  at the time of most of the stories, there is/was an absolutely brutal war which resulted in advancements of both technology and magic.  A semaphore system for long range communication.  Telescopes becoming widespread. Printing presses (under strict government/church control).  Complex clockwork devices and very crude steam driven contraptions (mostly for pumps).  And other minor technological marvels.

Socially, the war saw a huge number of people pressed into the legions - war is over, soldiers mostly discharged, government coffers look like empty rooms, so the soldiers are being mostly paid off in land (a major upset to the quasi medivial society of before) as well as being granted full citizenship - in other words, the rise of a new middle class, which causes even more disruption.

As to 'magic'...to take it a bit further into the realm of science - if pressed, I would argue (at least in fiction) that it is a 'force of the universe' (like gravity, electromagnetism, ect) and cite a link with quantum mechanics along the lines of rigging the dice with the 'observer effect'. (Scroendiggers cat that is neither dead nor alive).  Reality is likely to be even stranger.

'Magic' in the 'scientific system' I am using, well, it is definitely there, and there are some 'spells' (mostly tied to Lovecraftian monstrosities) that can be powerful enough to destroy cities under certain circumstances...but effects like that tend to be the exceptions, rather than the rule.



> There are ways you can do it; as a reader, if you're going down the scientific path I'd expect these sorts of issues to at least be acknowledged and addressed, and then once that is done I'd give quite a bit of leeway in terms of the author's creative solutions



Way, way back in my college days, I saw a film in a psychology class that showed a fellow wearing what looked like an upseide down strainer tricked out by Rube Goldberg with the assistance of a stoned Nikoli Tesla.  While wearing this contraption, this person was able to make an toy electric train move - just by 'thinking at it'.  This was an untrained subject using stuff put together on the fly better than three dozen years ago.  A few months ago, I saw and advertisement for a 'toy' that does much the same thing. The film I saw way back when got me to thinking...the guy in the film was apparently 'plucked at random'...but suppose you had somebody else go through that - somebody who scored real high on the old line PSI tests?...and used this, and things like this to 'train' their abilities.  Human mind be a marvel...maybe enough of a marvel to allow for something like PSI.

That gave me the idea for the ancient aliens  on my main world: their series of rather brutal experiments/operations/treatments created a large number of people, who, in todays terms, would score extremely high on the old line PSI tests.

Ok...I'm rattling on waaaayyyy to much here...


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## Benjamin Clayborne

ThinkerX said:


> In all too many fantasy settings, the culture/technology is static: take a knowledgable person from 2000 years in the past on one of them, drop him or her into the present, and aside from old cities destroyed, new ones rebuilt, and a new dynasty occupying the throne, its all pretty much the same - same feudal system (with maybe an odd twist or three) same magics (again with maybe a twist or three), same gods, with maybe a few new ones added or subtracted.  Real, real unlikely to find a transformation from oil filled lanterns to electric lights, or anything resembling modern medicine instead of faith healing, or firearms replacing swords and bows.



This is something that has bothered me about quite a few fantasy realms, not least Middle-Earth, but more presently in _A Song of Ice and Fire_. Apparently, the Wall was built, like eight thousand years ago, and apparently technology has not improved at all since then? They used magic to make the wall, so maybe when magic and dragons were prevalent, nobody really thought there was a need for improving technology, but you get the impression that it was really more or less the same as now, except with more magic. (Don't get me wrong, I love _ASOIAF_, it's just something that nags at me.)

It's one reason why I like the _Wheel of Time_ so much: Jordan turned it into a cosmic cycle, where there's Ages of high technology, and Ages of medieval society, and it goes back and forth because of this continual process of destruction and advancement. If you accept the whole premise of the Wheel of Time (I mean the Wheel itself, not the book series) then it makes perfect sense that technology is, at this point in time, quasi-medieval.


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## Hans

ThinkerX said:


> And there, you touch on another of the themes that interest me, and which feature into my stories: that of change over time.
> 
> In all too many fantasy settings, the culture/technology is static: take a knowledgable person from 2000 years in the past on one of them, drop him or her into the present, and aside from old cities destroyed, new ones rebuilt, and a new dynasty occupying the throne, its all pretty much the same - same feudal system (with maybe an odd twist or three) same magics (again with maybe a twist or three), same gods, with maybe a few new ones added or subtracted.  Real, real unlikely to find a transformation from oil filled lanterns to electric lights, or anything resembling modern medicine instead of faith healing, or firearms replacing swords and bows.


Is this stated as an in world fact or just told by some people living in that world? Look at medieval pictures for Roman or Greek stories. People are wearing medieval gown and using medieval tools. It is just in the perception of the people that nothing changed over that time period.
Feudalism of the early middle ages was very different of the lat middle age. Still it is described as feudalism. Early castles have very few in common with late built castles. Still both are described as castles. A reader might think, nothing changed.
Xerxes is called a king. Albert II. is called king. Does that mean nothing changed?

So who says in these stories worlds nothing changed, just because they use the same words as some hundred or thousand years ago?


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## Ravana

Steerpike said:


> The one potential problem I foresee is that if you open that door, then the laws of science stampede through the doorway along with the rest of your ideas. For example, if you are going to have a magic system that is based on scientific principles, so that your magicians are really scientifically manipulating the physical universe (even if they may not realize it or understand it), then you have to deal with things like thermodynamics. If you move "magic" into the scientific realm as a manipulation of atoms or what have you, then you can't have spells that create something from nothing (mass of the system remains constant).
> 
> You could have a hybrid system, I suppose, but I'm not sure why one would.



Actually, I do this all the time, and have suggested "magical thermodynamics" here in the past. You already named the solution: the mass–or, rather, the combination of mass and energy–of the system must remain constant. 

You know how much energy you'd release in annihilating a pebble? 

The energy doesn't need to come from anywhere as esoteric as another dimension, or be channeled from the sun (or the center of the planet, or anywhere else). All you need is to remember TANSTAAFL. The caster draws in energy from his environment; a portion of this goes to controlling and directing the rest; the rest does… whatever it does. Up to the limit of what the caster can cope with, based on training, concentration, endurance, and resources available to be fed into the equation. Those who are practiced in this do this automatically, as a matter of course; those who don't tend to draw excessively upon their own bodies… to either their limit, or their detriment.

This, in fact, is what I find _most_ useful about such a system–the "why to do it": it provides inherent limits on what the magic can do, so that you don't need to be _ad hoc_ about it. You want to "make something out of nothing"? You better have something else that can _become_ nothing in the process. If you don't, then tossing a small ball of fire might prove draining… but conjuring even a single coin will be fatal.

This also allows you to introduce interesting "scientific" principles into the magic, if you care to, based on the extent to which a character "understands" the principles. Change lead into gold? Someone who knew what he was doing would change mercury instead… though of course mercury is far scarcer than lead, so the profit margin wouldn't be as big. On the other hand, neither would the rads he's soaking. Want to throw a lightning bolt? Why draw the energy from matter–when there's more than enough static electricity in the ground? And so on. Of course, the characters don't _need_ to know what they're doing: all they need to know is how to achieve the results. Just makes it a trifle more interesting if they do know what they're doing, and can help explain apparent differences in power levels between them.


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## Amanita

As fascinating as such a science-based magic system is, getting the information across to the reader is a great problem. I'm having to deal with this at the moment and I still haven't come to a solution. 
If you don't mention the scientific background most people won't realise that it's there at all, but if you do, you have to explain, or many of them won't understand what's going on or don't even know, where the magic ends and where the science begins. Does anyone have any ideas as to how something like that can be done without boring the reader.


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## sashamerideth

Is there any reason that the reader needs to understand how a science based magic system works, if we don't want to tell them, or if the character doesn't understand it? As writers, we should know how it works, and never break our own rules, but this doesn't necessarily need to be conveyed to the reader. Just depends on the story.

Sent from my Blade using Forum Runner


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## Steerpike

Ravana said:


> The energy doesn't need to come from anywhere as esoteric as another dimension, or be channeled from the sun (or the center of the planet, or anywhere else). All you need is to remember TANSTAAFL. The caster draws in energy from his environment; a portion of this goes to controlling and directing the rest; the rest does… whatever it does. ]



Yes, this makes sense. In most attempts at science-based magic systems I've seen, the author doesn't bother with this, or even bother addressing it. That is where the systems fail, in my view. I think you can employ any number of techniques, from using matter on hand to exotic things like tapping into a star or another dimension. But if you're going to root your magic system in science, then I think these considerations have to be addressed and not simply ignored.


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## Steerpike

sashamerideth said:


> Is there any reason that the reader needs to understand how a science based magic system works, if we don't want to tell them, or if the character doesn't understand it? As writers, we should know how it works, and never break our own rules, but this doesn't necessarily need to be conveyed to the reader. Just depends on the story.



I think the reader can be told enough to make it plausible in a very limited amount of space. Of course, if the people who use magic don't understand it themselves, then there is no reason to expect that it will be explained to the reader either. In that case, however, I wouldn't characterize it as having any kind of scientific basis, because even if you view it that way in your mind as an author, the inhabitants of the world your are writing about don't see it that way and that is the world in which the reader will be immersed. If the inhabitants of the world who use magic don't see it as having a scientific grounding, then I think the issue becomes irrelevant and it is indistinguishable to the reader from a regular non-scientific system.

If within the story itself the magic is perceived as science-based, then I think the author needs to hold up her end of the bargain by ensuring that is makes sense and is consistent with basic principles of science (or departs from them with explanations).


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## Benjamin Clayborne

Amanita said:


> As fascinating as such a science-based magic system is, getting the information across to the reader is a great problem. I'm having to deal with this at the moment and I still haven't come to a solution.
> If you don't mention the scientific background most people won't realise that it's there at all, but if you do, you have to explain, or many of them won't understand what's going on or don't even know, where the magic ends and where the science begins. Does anyone have any ideas as to how something like that can be done without boring the reader.



You don't have to explain it; but if you want your magic system to be based upon it, you can write it that way. The magic powers work in a way that is _consistent_ with that rigorous physical explanation, even if the characters haven't the faintest notion about it, and even if you never say word one to the reader about it.

Most readers won't care: it's *magic*. It doesn't have to have a rigorous explanation. Harry Potter's magic system is absurd, and the books are beloved anyway, because JKR knows that the primary focus is the characters and the story, not the details of how magic works (although those details are used as important plot devices a number of times, even if the details aren't always consistent with other details provided earlier or later).


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## sashamerideth

Steerpike said:
			
		

> I think the reader can be told enough to make it plausible in a very limited amount of space. Of course, if the people who use magic don't understand it themselves, then there is no reason to expect that it will be explained to the reader either. In that case, however, I wouldn't characterize it as having any kind of scientific basis, because even if you view it that way in your mind as an author, the inhabitants of the world your are writing about don't see it that way and that is the world in which the reader will be immersed. If the inhabitants of the world who use magic don't see it as having a scientific grounding, then I think the issue becomes irrelevant and it is indistinguishable to the reader from a regular non-scientific system.
> 
> If within the story itself the magic is perceived as science-based, then I think the author needs to hold up her end of the bargain by ensuring that is makes sense and is consistent with basic principles of science (or departs from them with explanations).



Hmm, a few more modifications to my story are in order. I have a mix of magic users that don't understand it, but one young lad that understands that when a crystal disappears, it is converted to energy, and used by mages.  The others think the crystal holds the spell they want to use, so are unnecessarily particular about what crystals they use, but that's how they've been taught.

Sent from my Blade using Forum Runner


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## Steerpike

sashamerideth said:


> Hmm, a few more modifications to my story are in order. I have a mix of magic users that don't understand it, but one young lad that understands that when a crystal disappears, it is converted to energy, and used by mages.  The others think the crystal holds the spell they want to use, so are unnecessarily particular about what crystals they use, but that's how they've been taught.



I don't think you need to modify that  The point I was trying to make is that if it never comes up in the story whether it is science or magic based, then it isn't relevant whether you address the scientific issues. But if it does come up, then I think readers are right to expect the author to have made those considerations.


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## iskavele

This idea I had for a magic system was that it was going to be a form of martial art. I actually had a scene where a "student" throws a said fire ball and the master gets angry with him because, to him, it wastes to much energy and is widely inaccurate. But to answer said question, no magic is not important to the story and can be left out, but if you can create a unique way to explain how magic works in your novel def. a plus if you ask me.


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## ThinkerX

> As fascinating as such a science-based magic system is, getting the information across to the reader is a great problem. I'm having to deal with this at the moment and I still haven't come to a solution.
> If you don't mention the scientific background most people won't realise that it's there at all, but if you do, you have to explain, or many of them won't understand what's going on or don't even know, where the magic ends and where the science begins. Does anyone have any ideas as to how something like that can be done without boring the reader.



As to explaining how the magic works...I tend to use conversations between characters.  In one of my stories, a warrior washes up on an island where a wizard dwells.  Said warrior simply doesn't know much about magic, so in their walks about the island between action scenes, the wizard, through analogies, explains some of the basics.

As far as understanding the 'science' behind the magic...I take the stance that even the understanding very experienced magicians is very seriously missing or downright flawed.  The 'science' has yet to catch up with the magic.


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## ascanius

Steerpike said:


> The one potential problem I foresee is that if you open that door, then the laws of science stampede through the doorway along with the rest of your ideas. For example, if you are going to have a magic system that is based on scientific principles, so that your magicians are really scientifically manipulating the physical universe (even if they may not realize it or understand it), then you have to deal with things like thermodynamics. If you move "magic" into the scientific realm as a manipulation of atoms or what have you, then you can't have spells that create something from nothing (mass of the system remains constant).



Dark matter.  The universe has a mass greater than what we can currently observe.  Instead of the wormholes to the sun or something else.  Someone could easily come up with a dark matter energy source, hell it could even turn out to be true for all we know.

I just want to point something out though.  Science is the observation of patterns in the universe/system/natural world, usually caused by an unobservable casual entity.  This means that science is simply the study of something in the natural world to understand the pattern(s) behind it.  Using this definition having a scientific magical system is actually quite logical.  For instance.  If spell one makes fire, what happens it the ending of spell two is used instead of that of spell one?  All that is needed for a scientific magical system is one where the changing a variable produces a predictable pattern or trend.  For instance adding a fixed mass of salt to water causes a decrease in temperature, what happens if a variable mass of salt is added, does the temperature change in proportion to the mass added? and can this proportionality be expressed mathematically. I took this example from an old lab, it is simple but I think it demonstrates that a scientific magical system is much simpler than many are making out to be, oh and the temperature of the solution decreases in proportion to the mass of salt added if anyone wants to know.  

It becomes much more complicated if people are trying to create a magical system based off of the physical reality as we know it which I think most of you are talking about, just thought I would throw that out there.  Now like Ravana mentions, using the theories of thermodynamics, conservation of mass and the rest of our scientific theories can still be done as explained in one of the previous posts



Ravana said:


> This also allows you to introduce interesting "scientific" principles into the magic, if you care to, based on the extent to which a character "understands" the principles. Change lead into gold? Someone who knew what he was doing would change mercury instead… though of course mercury is far scarcer than lead, so the profit margin wouldn't be as big. On the other hand, neither would the rads he's soaking. Want to throw a lightning bolt? Why draw the energy from matter—when there's more than enough static electricity in the ground? And so on. Of course, the characters don't _need_ to know what they're doing: all they need to know is how to achieve the results. Just makes it a trifle more interesting if they do know what they're doing, and can help explain apparent differences in power levels between them.



I agree that the characters/magic casters don't need to know what exactly they are doing but how to do it.  The ancient Greeks understood that if heat was supplied to water it would boil.  Or when it was cold water would freeze.  They did not know that adding energy to the system simply increased the kinetic energy of the water molecules to the point where the rate of evaporation became greater than that of atmospheric pressure.  This is really cool and I though I would share.  Check out the triple point in states of matter.  It is the point where conditions are right allowing simultaneous sold, liquid, gas state changes.  A substance can literally freeze boil and sublimate all at the same time.  It's really cool to watch and much simpler than you would think.  They didn't know that water through hydrogen bonds broke salt into their cation and anions but that the salt no longer remained solid. 

I think the best bet when using a magical system based on the physics of our reality is to keep it simple and basic.  Energy to do magic has to come from something, a fire burning, and the spell moves this energy to achieve goal x.  I would suggest not using, spell Y works because the spell relocates the energy released in the formation of bonds from the combustion of oil forming COsub2 and water.  This electromagnetic radiation released is transferred to the steel ions increasing the kinetic energy so the metallic bonds are broken moving steel from the solid state to the liquid state in what we see as melting.  I think when too many details are present in fantasy it takes away from the primitive aspect of the entire setting.  For me it creates a discord between two aspects and makes me wonder why they are still fighting with swords and spear.  I think Ravana makes some very useful points though on this topic and ways it can be used to create rules and limitations while giving it more depth than something like in Harry Potter, to each his own.



sashamerideth said:


> Hmm, a few more modifications to my story are in order. I have a mix of magic users that don't understand it, but one young lad that understands that when a crystal disappears, it is converted to energy, and used by mages.  The others think the crystal holds the spell they want to use, so are unnecessarily particular about what crystals they use, but that's how they've been taught.
> 
> Sent from my Blade using Forum Runner


I honestly like the idea of different people having a different understanding of magic in the world, I find it much more believable than everyone even if they all study it all have the same knowledge.


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## Reaver

Every point made in this thread is very informative and fascinating. To be quite honest, I've never even considered the magic in the world my stories take place in to be science-based at all. It's just one of those things that just is what it is.  Yes, it's debated by the scholars and practitioners of this world as to how it came to be and all that, but when it comes down to it, no-one can definitively say what it is or where it originated. This innate mysterious quality works for me, and hopefully for my readers.


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## quenchy

Anyone read the book "Celestial Matters"? In it magic doesn't exist, but the universe works based on Ptolemaic laws (I hope I'm writing this correctly). The matter has innate properties - for example, the fire moves in circle around the center of the universe - the Earth - and away from it, to the end of the universe. The lunar matter also moves around the earth matter and is repelled by it. The outer space is filled with aether. The mechanics of gravity and motion are based on the innate properties of every kind of matter or element which move according to 3 or more of the celestial spheres, which are the center-points of the universe. The theory of self-generation of living matter is proven and used en masse - from different kinds of human and animal waste the alchemists create animals such as sheep, goat and cattle for the population to eat. The Greek Simachia (one of the two super-powers) uses lunar matter to create airships which use special projectiles that intercept enemy vehicles and soldiers based on the innate movement according o the position of the spheres, and the ships are used to cruise the aer and the aether with hundreds of crewmen eating self-generated food.

If you like such a prospect, you could base your magic on obsolete scientific theories and your mages can simply be scientists in a world that is transcending from the dark ages to the early Renaissance.


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## Wormtongue

In my world magic always has a price.  The energy has to come from somewhere.  I see a wizard as more of a channel for magical energy than as a huge magical battery.  And magical energy isn't limitless.

So Harry Potter, or D&D style magical combat is simply not possible.  The kind of energy for those battles simply wouldn't be available.


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## Sheilawisz

Wormtongue said:


> In my world magic always has a price.  The energy has to come from somewhere.  I see a wizard as more of a channel for magical energy than as a huge magical battery.  And magical energy isn't limitless.
> 
> So Harry Potter, or D&D style magical combat is simply not possible.  The kind of energy for those battles simply wouldn't be available.


Well, in my Fantasy the Mages are an unlimited source of magic: They can fly at hypersonic speeds without effort, make castles and countries appear out of nowhere and throw one magical nuke after another without a care in the world... I don't care at all to explain anything from a logical or scientific point of view, and reading what everyone is writing in this thread about magic is a very strange and sometimes amusing experience for me...

You all would read my works, shake your heads in desbelief and say "that's impossible" over and over again, and I know that's bad for Fantasy stories because most readers want everything to be realistic... but now I am happy with it!! I love my Fantasy anyway =)


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## Wormtongue

Sheilawisz said:


> Well, in my Fantasy the Mages are an unlimited source of magic: They can fly at hypersonic speeds without effort, make castles and countries appear out of nowhere and throw one magical nuke after another without a care in the world... I don't care at all to explain anything from a logical or scientific point of view, and reading what everyone is writing in this thread about magic is a very strange and sometimes amusing experience for me...
> 
> You all would read my works, shake your heads in desbelief and say "that's impossible" over and over again, and I know that's bad for Fantasy stories because most readers want everything to be realistic... but now I am happy with it!! I love my Fantasy anyway =)



I wouldn't try to talk you out of your own ideas of what magic should be, but let me give you something to think about.

You may enjoy the power of doing anything anytime, but it will be boring to the reader.  Readers don't require realism in fantasy, but they require struggle.  Where is the opportunity for struggle in a world where every mage has unlimited power?

But here is a thought...  What if the mages were accustomed to having all that power, and somebody found a way to turn it off?  Now you have a great opportunity for struggle.  The mages who were used to having everything now have nothing, and they must find out what happened and undo it.


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## Janga

I'm sure this has been said over and over, but I like my magic to be subtle and mysterious... something that only certain people in the world possess and use rarely, and is frightening and exotic to those that cannot use it.


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## Sheilawisz

Wormtongue said:


> I wouldn't try to talk you out of your own ideas of what magic should be, but let me give you something to think about.
> 
> You may enjoy the power of doing anything anytime, but it will be boring to the reader.  Readers don't require realism in fantasy, but they require struggle.  Where is the opportunity for struggle in a world where every mage has unlimited power?
> 
> But here is a thought...  What if the mages were accustomed to having all that power, and somebody found a way to turn it off?  Now you have a great opportunity for struggle.  The mages who were used to having everything now have nothing, and they must find out what happened and undo it.


In my stories, the struggle comes because I have several different cultures and societies of Mages that fight each other =) They live in different cities and even different worlds, so the stories are about mages vs mages (all of them evil, by the way!!) and I do create good conflict... Your idea about turning off magic is good and would work in another story, but not in mine because my magic comes out of nowhere and is unlimited!! It's not like the Force in Star Wars or other magic systems like that, but those systems are fun too.

Janga: That style of subtle and mysterious magic has something fascinating about it indeed, totally different to mine but I really like it... What I don't like is when people want to view magic like it was science =( By the way, welcome both of you to Mythic Scribes!!


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## ThinkerX

> In my stories, the struggle comes because I have several different cultures and societies of Mages that fight each other =) They live in different cities and even different worlds, so the stories are about mages vs mages (all of them evil, by the way!!) and I do create good conflict...



Groups of super powerful evil mages clashing with one another on a frequent basis?

You do realize, that after a century or two of this sort of behaviour, the vast bulk of your world(s) will be empty, dead wastelands, with the odd wizard here and there ruling over fightened savages and monsters.  

The other thing you're not taking into account is the backlash.  Here on earth, even ill confirmed accounts of relatively wimpy magicians was enough to start off inquistions and witch burnings that saw a great many people killed.  Wizards who behave the way you describe would not be truly greeted with open arms *anywhere*, there would *always* be somebody looking to stick a mundane knife in their back or drop a dollop of extra strength poison in their wine cup.  Probably, there would be a large organization, secret or otherwise, doing that sort of thing.


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## Neurosis

I found it interesting that Ursula le Guin straddled both these paradigms in her Earthsea quartet. Magic is both subtle and at times obvious and terrifying. As such I think there is much to be said for blending the two approaches.


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## Wormtongue

Neurosis said:


> I found it interesting that Ursula le Guin straddled both these paradigms in her Earthsea quartet. Magic is both subtle and at times obvious and terrifying. As such I think there is much to be said for blending the two approaches.



It boils down to the right magic at the right moment.  Sometimes the appropriate magic is spectatular and sometimes it's almost imperceptible.  The key is to use magic the way that best advances the story.

A mage faces 10 orcs.  What is the "best" magic to use?

"With a wave of his hand the sorcerer decimated the orcs in a huge ball of fire."

"The sorcerer backed into the alcove and with a few murmured words faded into the stone.  The band of orcs marched past oblivious to the mage."

Either could be best.  Or neither.  It all depends on the story.


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## Sheilawisz

ThinkerX said:


> Groups of super powerful evil mages clashing with one another on a frequent basis?
> 
> You do realize, that after a century or two of this sort of behaviour, the vast bulk of your world(s) will be empty, dead wastelands, with the odd wizard here and there ruling over fightened savages and monsters.
> 
> The other thing you're not taking into account is the backlash.  Here on earth, even ill confirmed accounts of relatively wimpy magicians was enough to start off inquistions and witch burnings that saw a great many people killed.  Wizards who behave the way you describe would not be truly greeted with open arms *anywhere*, there would *always* be somebody looking to stick a mundane knife in their back or drop a dollop of extra strength poison in their wine cup.  Probably, there would be a large organization, secret or otherwise, doing that sort of thing.


Hello ThinkerX!! Well, you would need to read my stories to know how everything works: My mages have sometimes attacked cities of the common people, but that is not something that happens on a frequent basis =) When mages fight other mages it takes place in their own cities and even inside castles, and since they throw their attacks at each other (also, everything there has a very powerful magical protection) the destruction is limited- Worlds have been destroyed in large, legendary wars that happened long ago, but they are not nuking cities every now and then...

Something else that is different in my stories is that the Mages do not rule over the common people, they just don't care and they let the people have their own Queens (the mages live apart in cities and societies of their own) When they visit the cities and towns of common people, they are sometimes feared and sometimes greeted =) The people are totally defenseless against Magic anyway, and all common weapons, from simple swords to heavy artillery fire and missiles, have failed against Mages


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## Sheilawisz

Wormtongue, I agree totally with you on that point: It's not that subtle magic is better than blasty style magic or the huge destructive power better than Gandalf style, because each Fantasy story is different and a Fantasy writer needs to use the style of magic that best adapts to the story, the worlds and the characters =)

Personally I like both styles, but I go for the blasty kind you know...



Wormtongue said:


> A mage faces 10 orcs.  What is the "best" magic to use?


Now, no disrespect, I really mean no offense but I laughed a lot after reading that part!! It shows me again how different I think to other Fantasy writers out there and how different our stories and worlds are... What about this: Let's throw the same ten orcs against a 3'4'' 27lbs seven years old girl without magic!! That starts to sound more logical to me =)


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## Telcontar

> Groups of super powerful evil mages clashing with one another on a frequent basis?
> 
> You do realize, that after a century or two of this sort of behaviour, the vast bulk of your world(s) will be empty, dead wastelands, with the odd wizard here and there ruling over fightened savages and monsters.



Sounds like a helluva good setting for some stories to me!


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## Sheilawisz

Thanks, Telcontar!! =)


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## Hans

Wormtongue said:


> A mage faces 10 orcs.  What is the "best" magic to use?


Depends very much on what the mage is able to do. Both your examples have spontaneous effects. That is a tactical rather than strategical view on magic. Most modern day phantasy has this, maybe it is what the modern reader expects.

In a renaissance epos like for example Orlando Furioso the mage would do the same as all his friends: Point his lance towards the opponent and charge. To work magic this guy has to retreat for at least a day and make deal with some spirits.
Not flashy and not very useful in a tactical combat situation, but could very well give the edge in a strategical plot.


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## Steerpike

Hans said:


> In a renaissance epos like for example Orlando Furioso the mage would do the same as all his friends: Point his lance towards the opponent and charge. To work magic this guy has to retreat for at least a day and make deal with some spirits.
> Not flashy and not very useful in a tactical combat situation, but could very well give the edge in a strategical plot.



I much prefer that sort of thing to mages who can just walk around spamming spells at will.


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## Reaver

Wormtongue said:


> A mage faces 10 orcs.  What is the "best" magic to use?
> QUOTE]
> 
> Please allow me to answer this question with another question: What does a mage do to an elephant with three balls?


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## zizban

Whatever magic you use, make sure it has rules. Make your magic casting characters figure out how to solve something within the rules.


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## ThinkerX

> Groups of super powerful evil mages clashing with one another on a frequent basis?
> 
> You do realize, that after a century or two of this sort of behaviour, the vast bulk of your world(s) will be empty, dead wastelands, with the odd wizard here and there ruling over frightened savages and monsters.





> Sounds like a helluva good setting for some stories to me!



Like so much else, its been done...best known example is probably the TSR 'Athas' or 'Dark Sun' books - where centuries of magical warfare turned grassland and forest into desert, and what little civilization remains is under the iron rule of the wizard kings.


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## Benjamin Clayborne

Reaver said:


> Wormtongue said:
> 
> 
> 
> A mage faces 10 orcs.  What is the "best" magic to use?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please allow me to answer this question with another question: What does a mage do to an elephant with three balls?
Click to expand...


Walks him and pitches to the rhino.


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## Ravana

Wormtongue said:


> A mage faces 10 orcs.  What is the "best" magic to use?



The one that gets rid of the smell fastest.


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## Sheilawisz

Well, since now everyone is having fun with the orcs question it's my turn!! =)



Wormtongue said:


> A mage faces 10 orcs.  What is the "best" magic to use?


I already hinted before that this question seems really funny to me, because in my worlds it lacks of sense completely: Any little girl from the common people, without magic, could easily take on ten orcs and tear off their faces (at around 3'4'' and 27lbs she would be strong enough to lift a car and attack faster than a lynx... with claws strong enough to shatter rock) before they can touch her =)

Now, if her 12' tall and 1580lbs dad shows up, the orcs would stand a better chance against a dragon!! These are the common people in my worlds, there are no humans... Back to the original question about what style of magic would be best, if the orcs met a Mage she would just turn them into cookies in a whirl of violet sparks, put them inside a bag of her cloak and eat them later, and when that moment comes they would be conscious and they would feel her teeth and everything.

Ravana, the joke about the smell was fun =)


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## Reaver

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Walks him and pitches to the rhino.




Thank you! I'm glad some one got it!  Now, what does a mage do to a fire giant with a full count?


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## Sheilawisz

Reaver, could you please explain these jokes to me?? =)


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