# Common Speech--help please!



## Caged Maiden (Apr 3, 2014)

I have a plow boy as a MC but I KNOW he talks like me and it's making me crazy.  I've spent so much time trying to use the best words possible, it's IMPOSSIBLE to dumb-down his speech.  Surely some of you have had to do this.  What do you recommend?  Do I just watch a couple episodes of Blackadder and fill my head with Baldrick's speech patterns?  I'm willing to do whatever it takes, but here are a few of his first draft quotes:

     “Yes, different, not sinister.  This story has left me feeling hollow inside, and unable to answer exactly why.”

AND

     “Winter is no relief.  You know that.  There is ice to cut, hogs to butcher.  The lambing season alone will keep the field workers busy clear ‘til the new buds show.  For me, Ayleth, there is just another field, and another, and some more.  After that, another season and new work that must be done.  If I’m lucky I will have summer nights with you next year, extending the illusion that one day we might live happily ever after like all those knights and queens and elves in your stories.”

AND

     “My life is spelled out.  It’s not so different from those letters in your books—unchanging, and almost as meaningless to me.”


Okay, so how can I best figure out a way to make his speech fit that of a serf?  He hangs out with an educated girl...I don't want him to be stupid.  He's actually very intelligent.  But, how much of his speech pattern would have rubbed off from her?  Would he WANT to alter the way he speaks to impress her?  My answer would be yes.  but I want some of his words to maybe not be the perfect ones.  Like (and I'm so sorry for saying this) when you're talking to someone who isn't very intelligent or well-read.  And they sort of use words wrong or try to sound smarter than they are.  And it's just a big old fail?  I want it like that, but not in a way you want to slap him for it.  More like you get that he's poor and uneducated, but you still see how genuine he is under it all.  

Thank you for any help you can provide.  This is certainly one of my weaknesses and too many of my characters sound too similar.  I have a real opportunity to give a great insight into this character with his speech patterns (for a few chapters till he's kidnapped and doesn't come back for four years).


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## Feo Takahari (Apr 3, 2014)

Your best bet would be to mimic a live person who talks simply, if you can find one. Got any relatives who work minimum wage?

Failing that, this character apparently knows some complicated concepts, so you might just be able to smack his speech with a thesaurus until the fancy falls out. For instance, "It's not wrong or evil, just different. I don't know why, but hearing that makes me feel kinda empty on the inside." This wouldn't represent points where he uses the wrong word or tries to show off, but it's at least a starting point.


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## Gurkhal (Apr 3, 2014)

I'll give it a shot!




> “Yes, different, not sinister.  This story has left me feeling hollow inside, and unable to answer exactly why.”



"Yes, different, but not bad. I don't know why but I feel empty."



> “Winter is no relief.  You know that.  There is ice to cut, hogs to butcher.  The lambing season alone will keep the field workers busy clear ‘til the new buds show.  For me, Ayleth, there is just another field, and another, and some more.  After that, another season and new work that must be done.  If I’m lucky I will have summer nights with you next year, extending the illusion that one day we might live happily ever after like all those knights and queens and elves in your stories.”



"Winter won't make it easier. You know that. It will be ice to cut, hogs to butcher and then the lambing season. The lambing will keep the fieldhands busy 'til the new buds show. For me there is just one field after the next. And then a new season and more work. If I'm lucky we'll be together next summer and we'll be happy like those knights and queens and elves in your stories."




> “My life is spelled out.  It’s not so different from those letters in your books–unchanging, and almost as meaningless to me.”



"I feel my life is decided already. Its almost like those letters in your book. They say what they say and you can't do much about it."


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## Butterfly (Apr 3, 2014)

Maybe... these fellas could help out a bit.

The Wurzels ORIGINAL PROMO FILM "Combine Harvester" No1 June 12th 1976 - YouTube

Just get that stuck in you head and you'll soon be sounding like a west country farmer.


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## Butterfly (Apr 3, 2014)

Seriously though... consider dropping some of the conjunction type words, and using shorter words where you can.



> “Yes, different, not sinister. This story has left me feeling hollow inside, and unable to answer exactly why.”



Perhaps... 'Yes. Different, not sinister. That story left me a bit hollow inside, unable to tell exactly why.'

Or add a few extra and lengthen sentences...



> “Winter is no relief. You know that. There is ice to cut, hogs to butcher. The lambing season alone will keep the field workers busy clear ‘til the new buds show. For me, Ayleth, there is just another field, and another, and some more. After that, another season and new work that must be done. If I’m lucky I will have summer nights with you next year, extending the illusion that one day we might live happily ever after like all those knights and queens and elves in your stories.”



'Winter's no relief and you know that what with there being ice to cut and them hogs to butcher. Lambing season alone t'will keep the field workers busy till next year's buds show. It's just one field after another and after that another season and do the work all over again. If we're lucky, I'll have some summer nights with you next year and maybe, one day, we'll live happily ever after like all them knights and queens and elves and whatnots in your stories.'


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 3, 2014)

@Gurkhal Seriously helpful, Thank you.  I think that's exactly what I'm going for.  Not really a hillbilly sort of dialect or a really rural British even.  Those are effective, but not exactly similar to the language of my world.

I know it's hard to describe language and I really appreciate the responses.  I am not sure why this is such a struggle for me because I'm sure I'm capable of it, I just haven't reached any solid ideas of what exactly I'm trying to attain.  I know what I don't want.  But that's only a start of the battle, isn't it?

He's not an idiot.  He's just a bit simpler than she is.  Her thoughts are deeper, where his are sort of genuine and not as eloquent.  But I don't want him to sound like a hick or something.  That's sort of just non-existent in my fantasy world (because I consider all the words a translation of some kind maybe?).  

I'll certainly use the suggestions moving forward.  I just need a way to remind myself to simplify his speech.  If anyone would be willing to read a few chapters for me int he future and double-check these for me, I'd greatly appreciate it.  He's only in a few chapters till his life begins to change.  I'm just really struggling with language consistency on this for some reason. 

 THANKS!!!!!


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 3, 2014)

"Do the work all over again"  that's really good, too.  OMG why is this crap so hard for me?  I feel so stupid.  I'm going to really give this a go and read through your suggestions like three more times, hoping they will stick a bit.  THANKS!!!


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## Jake Belsten (Apr 3, 2014)

Caged Maiden said:


> "Do the work all over again"  that's really good, too.  OMG why is this crap so hard for me?  I feel so stupid.  I'm going to really give this a go and read through your suggestions like three more times, hoping they will stick a bit.  THANKS!!!



You say you can't understand why you find it so hard, but I'd think this is a very common problem amongst writers. Something I find (and I'm sure many others do too) is that all of your characters sound the same unless they have a very pronounced way of speaking (eg. really posh, or full-on farmer/pirate!). So I wouldn't feel bad about not being able to get a hang of it, it's inevitable really.

This man sounds like an interesting character. As you say he is not _stupid_, that he genuinely quite thoughtful/clever, I think it depends more on how he adapts his speech to the situation (ie. talking to the girl you mentioned). You said some people might try and sound a lot smarter than they are, but that isn't always the case. Your character could be proud of his simple roots and uses his local dialect as a sort of badge of honour, or he could try and alter his speech when talking to this girl. 

Also, how does the girl react to his speech - does she prefer it if he uses better language or does she kind of like the roughness of his speech? (that's probably easier to answer if I knew more about the story).

As for finding out ways to write that sort of dialect, I'd say just listen to how ordinary people speak, your average guy on the street. Sometimes there's no big change, it's just a little mannerism or something. You said about listening to Baldrick, and that's actually a pretty good idea (just don't use the "I have a cunning plan..." line!) - although that's probably  a bit to OTT for what you want!

Hope this helps.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 3, 2014)

haha Baldrick--yeah.  Okay, so to go into more detail about the characters, Ayleth is the daughter of a mage and is very educated (and magical herself).  She fancies herself a poet and dreamer, destined to leave her village for bigger and better things, like maybe being a bard like her grandfather used to be.  Her life is a collection of folk tales and her interpretations.  it's the way she relates to things, through stories and poems.  It's also the way she relates to Aarin (the plow boy) because he cannot read or write.  So she tells him stories and tries to bring a little light to what she considers a rather dreary life.  They're best friends and lovers, but Ayleth fully believes she's going to marry Aarin one day (they're 14 and 15 and need to wait until they're adults) and leave the village to lead a life as independent artists or something.  

At the time of this opening, she's living in a barn (kicked out of the house by her step-mom who doesn't like her) and Aarin is a serf, in service to a lord on whose land they all live.  She doesn't really understand that Aarin is kinda attached to the land and isn't free.  Because she is.  her father rents a house and land and is free to leave whenever he wishes.  But Aarin's house is not his... and neither is his life.  So their backgrounds are only briefly mentioned before they are split up.  I want them to speak differently but not so different that it becomes jarring in the reader's head.  

I'm going for something more common (because he's not embarrassed to be who he is) but show that he has learned from her.  We get to see into his head, too and for those scenes, I'm going the route of my Oliver Twist-type character, where all the thoughts are grammatically awesome in his head, but when he speaks, it's a little rough.  Does that sound like it might be confusing?  Would that be jarring to a reader?


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## Michael J. Tobias (Apr 3, 2014)

I think it would more confusing if you _didn't_ make his speech simpler. Gurkhal did a great job of interpreting, perhaps a brewing partnership?


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## Svrtnsse (Apr 3, 2014)

In my work (online customer support) I come across a lot of people who aren't that good at English. One thing I've noticed, both in myself and in my colleagues, is that it's really easy to think someone stupid just because they don't have full command of the language.

I'll try and share some advice for how to get through to people who don't speak the language that well. I'm not sure how much this will apply to this particular issue, but it might be interesting anyway. 
1. Try to stick with saying just one thing per sentence.
2. Use shorter words rather than longer.
3. Don't use "either-or" questions. You'll get a yes or no in reply to one of the options and you don't know which one.
4. Don't rush it.

So for this case it's mainly the first two options that apply (the other two are more for chatting live with people). I'll try and do what Ghurkal did and "translate" your example sentences to provide different suggestions and because it seems like fun.
I won't be sticking hard to the "rules" mentioned above. I'll be using them as a guideline though.



Caged Maiden said:


> “Yes, different, not sinister.  This story has left me feeling hollow inside, and unable to answer exactly why.”


Yes. It's different, but it's not bad (mean/evil). After all that happened, I'm feeling a bit empty inside. Strange thing is, I'm not sure why."




Caged Maiden said:


> “Winter is no relief.  You know that.  There is ice to cut, hogs to butcher.  The lambing season alone will keep the field workers busy clear ‘til the new buds show.  For me, Ayleth, there is just another field, and another, and some more.  After that, another season and new work that must be done.  If I’m lucky I will have summer nights with you next year, extending the illusion that one day we might live happily ever after like all those knights and queens and elves in your stories.”


Winter's not easy and you know it. There's always something to do; ice to cut, hogs to butcher, you know. Then there's the lambing season and when that's done it's spring and then it all starts over again. For me, Ayleth, there's just one more field and then another, and another, over and over again. With a bit of luck we'll spend the nights together next summer. We can dream and you can tell me stories you've read and we can pretend we'll live happily ever after.




Caged Maiden said:


> My life is spelled out.  It’s not so different from those letters in your books—unchanging, and almost as meaningless to me.”


My life is set. It won't change. It's just like those books you read. The story stays the same no matter how many times you read them.

---

Okay, so those are my versions of your examples. I hope they lend some inspiration.


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## skip.knox (Apr 3, 2014)

If he's learning from her, one technique would be to have him mis-use a word now and then. He's reaching for the greater vocabulary but isn't there yet. A handy rule of thumb for that would be to stick to Anglo-Saxon words (so, no "sinister"). Then reach for the Latinate/Romanesque words once in a while. He hits sometimes, misses other times, depending on the tone you're trying to strike at the time.

Another possibility, as an addition not an alternative, is to give him a verbal tic. I have a character in my WIP who is from the lower classes (river barges). She's also from a different part of the country. There are numerous times when there's a need to say "okay" (e.g., "are you okay?"). I have my other characters use "all right" or some other form, but the character Hille, and only her, says "okeh".  I use the alternate spelling only because "okay" feels too modern. Anyway, she mostly talks the same as the others, but the tic sets her apart.

My final thought is this: since this is an MC, you're going to have to write his dialog all through the book. Are you really willing to have him talk in short sentences, using only simple words, for the entire novel? If not, are you willing to undertake the delicate task of having his speech improve over the course of pages? If not, another way to show his peasant background is to let him speak normally but demonstrate his ignorance of the wider world. Saddle him with some superstitions, crazy notions about distant places, and prejudices against anything foreign (by which he means anything further than a three-day walk).

Others gave excellent advice on how to craft the words. I thought I'd try a different angle.


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 4, 2014)

@ Skip.  yeah, I know what you mean.  In fact, he IS a MC and I DO show his wider knowledge form.  But luckily, I skip three years almost and just show his arrival at a city and him in three years after getting there.  Yes, lacking knowledge is something I use when he gets to a big city...all those things that intimidate the heck out of a fifteen-year-old serf who gets dragged before a neighboring king and ordered to join the army...all for good reasons I can't possibly get into here.  But yes, I'm doing a few other things to show his humble beginning and it's all part of his transformation for when the characters who grew up together are reunited in the future.  Thanks.  my biggest problem was abandoning my own speech patterns and favorite words, to sound more like a serf.  That was a struggle I had less success with than I'd like to admit.  HARD!!!

While I've struggled with learning things before, I've never spoken like an uneducated person and it's hard to just make up.  I wasn't sure what I was really going for, but now I think I'm understanding the balance you all are suggesting.  not truly poor speech, just a few nuances that point to his being less comfortable with words than Ayleth is.  I love that.  I think I'm well on my way.  I just really needed a concept to stick before I could break ground on this problem.


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## Jake Belsten (Apr 4, 2014)

Caged Maiden said:


> I'm going for something more common (because he's not embarrassed to be who he is) but show that he has learned from her.  We get to see into his head, too and for those scenes, I'm going the route of my Oliver Twist-type character, where all the thoughts are grammatically awesome in his head, but when he speaks, it's a little rough.  Does that sound like it might be confusing?  Would that be jarring to a reader?



This sounds like a nice story! You could make him stutter a bit when he speaks, if he has to take a while to think about it. He could also maybe attempt to say more sophisticated stuff but it all comes out the wrong way. Also, you could actually make the point in the book (rather than just implying it) and have him say that he is trying to speak a bit better. (maybe Ayleth could teach him or help him become a bit more upper-class? that obviously depends on their relationship).

Also I agree with Michael J. Tobias - it would be plainer if you didn't exagerate his simpler speech. By changing his speech it makes the story more interesting to read in my opinion. 

Have you posted any of this story on the forums - I'd love to hear an extract!


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## Caged Maiden (Apr 4, 2014)

http://mythicscribes.com/forums/portfolios/caged-maiden/39-warriors-heart-chapter-1.html  this is chapter one, in my portfolio and the next two chapters are there, too.  I've utilized your guys' advice and I'd love to know whether it works as a whole with what I was going for.  THANKS!


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## Gurkhal (Apr 4, 2014)

Thank you very much Caged Maiden and Tobias. I'm always happy to help someone.


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## chrispenycate (Apr 6, 2014)

I know this would work for me, but am not certain it'll be useful for anyone else. 

Move into his head, and write a chapter in first person, from his point of view. You can write with the malapropisms (can you feel his finger sliding along the page as he attempts to decipher the word?) or splice them in later.

Now, I'd be addin' a bit uv accent, like; none to much, look you, or seemest a jest, an he'd never mock the tongue of his betrothed, nor his betters. He bain't simple, but his thoughts are penned, pounded by the hurdles of words. He can't even think 'repetitive' (nor 'probably', nor 'sinister'); them's priest terms, furrein. Y' knows what they mean, but dun't use 'em fur thinkin' in.

Yep, ye uses words fer thinkin' in, and y'ain't got the words, can't think the thoughts.

Fer a peasant, having work all year, that's normal. How life is. Dun't question it; how life is. Time to celebrate at yule, mayday, St. John, Harvest in; more than the clerks in the city get. Winter is calmer; fodder for the beasts, mendin', firewood after a blow; almost a pity, more work'd keep us warmer. Wimmin, too oh, not fer keeoin' us warmer, though they duz that right well, but with the short days and muffled winders they can't be weavin or hemboidering, that's fer the ladies in the big house, with glass and oil lamps, mebbe evun beeswax candles. Spinning goes on; but dun't occupy the mind. Many a good tale told by the squeak of the treadle wheel, the glow of the embers. 

But oi be tellin', not showin'. Let me start in one 0' those nights, Mari-Annah suckling her firstborn, so some twelve winters past, roof snow cosying the cot and blocking half the chimney, an hid in the gloom mayhap a wandering hand exploring a breast, or a thigh - or a pair o' breeches, fer all that. That were when ol' Thomas, must a been best part o fifty even then, started on the tale…

Of course you'll be a rewriting of it after. Can't be having of uneddicated stuff in yer final versiun. But, once you've seen through his eyes, thought through his brain, loved with his fervour, dialogue either feel natural, or can be scrapped.


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## Jake Belsten (Apr 11, 2014)

As a side point, and if you're still looking for inspiration, I suggest reading a bit of Brian Jacques' _Redwall_ books. They're kids books really, but he's got a way with accents and different dialects so that you may find useful.


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## Gurkhal (Apr 13, 2014)

Gurkhal said:


> Thank you very much Caged Maiden and Tobias. I'm always happy to help someone.



I should of course say: thank you, everyone.


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