# Jodie Foster Slams writers for use of



## SeverinR (May 18, 2016)

Jodie Foster | Jodie Foster Slams Male Writers For Use Of Rape Plots | Contactmusic.com
"When you really got to the overriding motivation of that women, by the end you'd always found out it was rape."

It does seem to be the common force in most women's motivation of many movies. (and some books)

*this topic could fit in other places, speaking of movies, but it's also writing. But it's not specific about how to, or what to write. So I put it here for a discussion.

IMHO people are people. Every motivation known to "man" is also possible to female. (My philosophy on other races too. Every motivation known to man can be known to elves, orcs, Dwarves or even Noids.)

I do believe the cause might be the old writers don't know how to write a female character and are restricting themselves to the "old ways".  "The only reason a nice gentlelady would be so _____, has to be because some evil man somewhere raped her." (spell check is racist, gentleman is one word, gentlelady should be two words per spell check here. It's the same word just a different sex.)

I think writers that actually work at creating believable characters can write a female character with any motivation.

I wouldn't automatically write it off as a motivation, but it does seem to be overused.


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## FifthView (May 18, 2016)

Torture and rape, both, seem to be overused in fantasy literature.  I think I've encountered more torture than rape in the novels I've read, but then I tend to read novels with male protagonists.  (And some of those stories have had instances of males being raped.)  I think these two fit within that set of tropes that are easy kill-the-puppy / save-the cat go-to's.  Want to show someone's evil?  Have him rape, torture, kidnap and torment someone close to the MC if not the MC himself/herself.  (Or have him kill a dog for no reason but his love of cruelty.)

When we consider the type of pre-industrial milieu of many fantasy worlds, the question of whether such brutality is par for the course is an interesting one.  I do believe that pre-modern society, particularly the farther back in time you go, would have had a larger incidence of rape—while also believing that this doesn't mean _every_ woman was a victim of rape.  In a brutal patriarchal society, in which violence plays a much larger role and policing a more minor role, the threat or possibility of rape would rise, I think.  

I think Jodie Foster has a stronger point when addressing movies/plots set in a modern time period.  I also think that writers of fantasy could benefit from considering alternative motives for women in their novels—as some do.


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## Reaver (May 18, 2016)

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## Garren Jacobsen (May 18, 2016)

Hmm, maybe I am reading the wrong books and wrong movies but I often don't see these. I mean I do in the Abercrombie and the Martin style books. But I haven't really seen it in the other stuff I read. Although, I did read a Clancy book where the MC was motivated by the horrific actions committed by a pimp to the MCs GF.


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## T.Allen.Smith (May 18, 2016)

Seems a bit hypocritical to win an academy award for starring in a movie where your role is a victim of rape (and the source of the character's motivation) & then slam writers for the use decades later, without so much as a mention of the role. 

I can see where the issue lies if that was the only motivation ever used, or if, as Foster implies, rape is used as a fallback for weak writing. But, I don't think it's as prevalent as the article seems to imply. 

I might be wrong. I'm just not reading/viewing it as a norm.


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## Chessie (May 18, 2016)

The rape scene in that movie was also half the movie's length. A hard one to watch.


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## Reaver (May 18, 2016)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Seems a bit hypocritical to win an academy award for starring in a movie where your role is a victim of rape (and the source of the character's motivation) & then slam writers for the use decades later, without so much as a mention of the role.
> 
> I can see where the issue lies if that was the only motivation ever used, or if, as Foster implies, rape is used as a fallback for weak writing. But, I don't think it's as prevalent as the article seems to imply.
> 
> I might be wrong. I'm just not reading/viewing it as a norm.



No one takes any celebrity seriously. Especially when it comes to serious societal issues. 

They're so far removed from real life that the comments they make about anything other than being a celebrity border on the farcical. 

 She obviously has an agenda and doesn't actually care about the real issue itself.


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## ThinkerX (May 19, 2016)

Hmmm...

Wrote a short story years ago where the plot revolved around a woman who chose to stay with a violent, abusive husband.

Apart from that, there's 'Empire: Capital.'

The MC, Tia, is in the imperial palace, officially as a witness in a cultic mass murder, but unofficially to snag an aristocratic husband - her well off commoner family is trying to increase their social status.  And there are a lot of single noble men there, many of them heroes of a devastating war.  But they returned from that conflict 'damaged' - dangerous.  More, as the emperors friends, they are protected from the consequences of dang near any act short of treason.  But this doesn't stop Tia - and quite a few other young women like her - from courting these fellows.  A risk/reward situation - rape, physical abuse verses a jump in social status.  Not sure if it fits the standard 'rape story motif,' but its what I wrote.


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## CupofJoe (May 19, 2016)

Reaver said:


> She obviously has an agenda and doesn't actually care about the real issue itself.


Everyone has an agenda, even if their agenda is "leave me alone".
And I would be wary of saying she doesn't care about the issue. She may not express herself in a way that motivates you but it motivated her.
As an aside are all the poster's in this thread male? 
I would be interesting to hear another perspective.
As a white middle-class middle-aged man from a fairly comfortable background, I'm not sure I have the chops or experience [and maybe the right?] to comment with authority on some issues that others see as affecting them.


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## Sheilawisz (May 19, 2016)

I would advice people to take this issue more seriously.

A very long time ago, we had a problem when people were bashing famous authors and one of them actually showed up here (using a different name) in order to defend him or herself. Please do not attack Jodie Foster personally in your posts, because she could be reading this and we do not want to look like a site that throws personal attacks at famous and generally admired people.

Many actors and actresses have participated in roles and films that they later regretted.

I also dislike very much how the issue in question has become so common in Fantasy stories these days. I am not sure why or how this has happened, but I agree with Foster on her opinion that the tendency is wrong. It's a very serious, delicate issue and it should be treated with more respect.


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## SeverinR (May 19, 2016)

Celebrities are people, they can have opinions, and they can take roles that seem to go against their stated opinions.  I didn't offer this discussion to get into celebrity bashing.

Like I said, I think if someone suggests there is a "common" writing occurrence it might be worth looking at. Just because she said it, doesn't make it true. But I have seen many movies that have the OP mentality.  

Fifthview: I agree, she is talking more Civilized period times, but the limited way of thinking for one genre could also be in others.

Cupojoe:
I did not realize, there is very little to tell male from female in the identifiers for each person. Some you can assume, (some I have had discussion with and know) but just looking you don't know.

Personally, I try to stay away from issues like this to much.  My motivations are more universal, usually motivations that could be male or female.  My main reason is because I want a character to be more then a rehashed version of someone else's character.


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## Devor (May 19, 2016)

I think the response here would be better if it wasn't Jodie Foster.  But she's also a producer and director, and if you consider how many scripts she must read, she has every right to comment in this area.

Regardless, I think rape has risen to the level of a fad, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was mentioned in the same breath as "Zombies" on the list of story content a publication won't accept.  (For those saying they don't see a lot of rape.... how many zombie stories do you see?)

I can't really comment on why people want to write about rape.  I don't understand it at all.


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## T.Allen.Smith (May 19, 2016)

Besides Game of Thrones, Thomas Covenant, & maybe a Joe Abercrombie story (I haven't read them all), where is this practice so common in fantasy? 

I think the backlash against writers, male writers, is largely coming from the TV series Game of Thrones where the _TV writers_ made a different choice of direction for the character Sansa, which a great number of people disliked, female and male.

It should be noted that this was not the original writing by GRRM. It was altered for TV. 

Due to the show's popularity, I can see why that might stoke the fires on the issue of proper agency for female characters, but I still think it's being overblown. I'm open to persuasion though if someone can provide a contemporary list of male authors relying on rape as a female character motivator. Even concerning Martin's ASOIF series, I remember threats of sexual assault being leveled, but I don't remember the action depicted blatantly. It has been awhile since reading those stories though. 

To be clear, I don't mind Foster voicing an opinion that is in opposition with a previous role. I do, however, think she should be more forthright about her change of mind and the role in question, not just the article mentioning the link to the movie The Accused.


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## FifthView (May 19, 2016)

_The Accused_ is from 1988, so something like 28 years ago, and it was _about_ a rape and subsequent trial.

I think there is a difference between a story about rape and a story that uses a rape merely to amp up tension, sympathy, and give a character a strong motivation.  These combine in _The Accused_, but in other movies and stories, they might not.

I'm not sure that pointing out Foster's role in _The Accused_, although a rhetorical flourish, is a strike against her point.


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## Devor (May 19, 2016)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Besides Game of Thrones, Thomas Covenant, & maybe a Joe Abercrombie story (I haven't read them all), where is this practice so common in fantasy?



Terry Goodkind, _Sword of Truth_, which is extremely popular for some people.


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## T.Allen.Smith (May 19, 2016)

Devor said:


> Terry Goodkind, Sword of Truth, which is extremely popular for some people.


Haven't read that, but we'll add it to the list:      

Donaldson - Thomas Covenant 1977 
Martin - ASOIF 1996  
Goodkind - Sword of Truth 2008  
Lawrence - Prince of Thorns 2011
Abercrombie - ?  



FifthView said:


> I'm not sure that pointing out Foster's role in The Accused, although a rhetorical flourish, is a strike against her point.


I agree. But, it should be part of her discussion primarily to properly frame her change in thinking from starting actress to director.


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## Devor (May 19, 2016)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Haven't read that, but we'll add it to the list:
> 
> Donaldson - Thomas Covenant 1977
> Martin - ASOIF 1996
> ...



I'm having trouble finding more because the words "fantasy" and "rape" do not belong in the same search box.


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## T.Allen.Smith (May 19, 2016)

Devor said:


> I'm having trouble finding more because the words "fantasy" and "rape" do not belong in the same search box.


Agreed.

I didn't want anyone to do a search. I was hoping people would know these stories offhand if they're so prevalent. 

I only limited the discussion to fantasy as that is the topic genre here at MS, & the prevalence in fantasy was mentioned earlier in this thread.


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## FifthView (May 19, 2016)

[Brandon] "Least favorite tropes or clichÃ©s?" Jake Lingual asks. Is this too big for a micro cast?
[Dan] I think we could each give one really quick.
[Brandon] Okay. Yeah.
[Dan] I will say bullies. I realized that that's a real problem, but I hate reading YA books about bullies. Like in Harry Potter, the world is going to end, it doesn't matter if Draco Malfoy doesn't like you.
[Brandon] I would say mine's similar. My least favorite trope is where a female character is made... Is proven to be strong by beating off rapists or by being raped and then overcoming it.
[Mary] That was the one I was going to say.
[Brandon] I stole it.
[Mary] So I'm just going to ditto it.

–http://www.writingexcuses.com/2014/04/27/writing-excuses-9-18-microcasting/​


T.Allen.Smith said:


> I didn't want anyone to do a search. I was hoping people would know these stories offhand if they're so prevalent.



I think that rape and the threat of rape are not uncommon in certain subgenres of fantasy, but pinpointing an exact case of rape being used as a primary motivator for female MCs is...not so easy for me.  

First, my tendency, as mentioned earlier, is to read fantasy novels with male protagonists.  Second, the rape or threats of rape I've encountered tend to be directed toward supporting characters rather than those male protagonists–so maybe a motivator for the male MCs, or maybe merely a tool to show how evil an antagonist is or to raise sympathy for the MC and surrounding supporting characters.  Or, as a kind of backdrop, when rapes are mentioned as part of a description of the aftereffects of warfare.

I also sometimes read m/m fantasy romance and related sorts of novels, and these too often seem to include torture and may include rape.  Storm Constantine's _Wraeththu_ series, for instance, includes rape–although the characters in that series are post-apocalyptic mutated (or, evolved) hermaphrodites _technically_.  C. S. Pacat's _Captive Prince_ series includes multiple instances of male rape, and one of the two MCs suffered when young from the attentions of his uncle and has that experience as a motivator (although this is not made explicit until the third book in the series.)

I think that in this discussion, we might somewhat be confusing mere incidence of rape and threats of rape with the more specific issue of using rape as a primary motivator for female MCs.  The one is rather common; not sure about the other.


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## Heliotrope (May 19, 2016)

I will weigh in as a 32-year-old woman  

GRRM defends his use of sexual violence in a few ways: 

_But Martin told the New York Times that although his books are epic fantasy, they are based on history (the series is loosely inspired by the Wars of the Roses). And "rape and sexual violence have been a part of every war ever fought, from the ancient Sumerians to our present day".

"To omit them from a narrative centered on war and power would have been fundamentally false and dishonest, and would have undermined one of the themes of the books: that the true horrors of human history derive not from orcs and Dark Lords, but from ourselves. We are the monsters. (And the heroes too). Each of us has within himself the capacity for great good, and great evil," the author said._

George RR Martin defends Game of Thrones' sexual violence | Books | The Guardian

_"I'm writing about war, which is what almost all epic fantasy is about, but if you're going to write about war and you just want to include all the cool battles and heroes killing a lot of orcs and things like that and you don't portray [sexual violence], then there's something fundamentally dishonest about that," he said.

"Rape, unfortunately, is still a part of war today. It's not a strong testament to the human race, but I don't think we should pretend it doesn't exist."_

Game of Thrones: George RR Martin insists omitting rape would be 'fundamentally dishonest' and criticises 'Disneyland Middle Ages' stories | News | Culture | The Independent

_"People will say 'Well, he's not writing history, he's writing fantasy - he put in dragons, he should have made an egalitarian society'," he said.

"Just because you put in dragons doesn't mean you can put in anything you want. I wanted my books to be strongly grounded in history and to show what medieval society was like.

"Most stories depict what I call the 'Disneyland Middle Ages' - there are princes and princesses and knights in shining armor but they didn't want to show what these societies meant and how they functioned."_

http://mythicscribes.com/forums/chit-chat/16570-jodie-foster-slams-writers-use-2.html#post237686


Am I tired of the constant portrayal of women as sex-objects in media? Yes. Of course. 

Do I think that rape is a huge problem in media and needs to be avoided at all costs? 

No. 

I'm raising a little boy right now. One thing that I have noticed since becoming a parent is how sugar coated everything is. How much we try to protect our children. How much we avoid certain conversations and pretend that certain things don't exist. At our local play school group they can't sing "The little old woman who swallowed a fly" because the song is about death. 

Are you freaking kidding me? 

We live in a rural town. Our cat catches mice and squirrels from the mountain and eats them, dragging the carcasses home. I had a friend try to use the "he's only sleeping" BS. 

It bothers me that we keep trying to push rape, racism, homophobia etc under the carpet and pretend it doesn't exist. It does exist. Is has existed for a long time. As a person who is very interested in history, I think we have a lot to learn from history. I think out children have a lot to learn from history so that history does not repeat itself. 

So while of course I'm not going to talk to my four-year-old son about rape, I will talk to my 14-year-old son about rape, racism, homophobia, and how and why those things are not OK. I'm not going to sugar coat real tragedies that happen in our world. 

So back to literature. I feel like when we Disneyland our literature then we are dumbing down our society. Sheltering them too much does not make leaders of change. 

So while I do agree that woman should be portrayed as more rounded than simply objects of rape, I also think that Fantasy is a safe venue to explore some of these terrible experiences that have happened (and still DO) happen in our world. Fantasy can be a great way of addressing social issues in a manner that is 'removed' enough from the 'real world' so that we can learn from them. 

I read "The Giver" every year with my Eighth Graders . This is a YA book where a child is in charge of keeping the memories of the community. One baby born into the community does not fit the mold of what the community expects, and so he is going to be destroyed. Injected with a toxin to stop his heart and then dumped down a chute into an incinerator. 

That is some pretty heavy stuff! But the fantasy setting and the fact that it is fiction... (We aren't reading articles about infanticide) makes it sort of a safe way to have some really tough conversations about what really happens in the world. 

So after all that (lol) I agree with Jodie Foster that women should have other roles then just being raped and surviving rape. 

However, I still feel that rape does have a role in story telling and should not be avoided completely.


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## Heliotrope (May 19, 2016)

On another note.... I think GRRM is doing just fine with his books and TV show, and Terry Goodkind got a $750,000 check for his first book in a publishers bidding war...

So neither of them probably really care about this debate  

And obviously their readers don't either.


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## Miskatonic (May 19, 2016)

Here's a little food for thought. Look at #1 on this list. It's adult related content so view at your own discretion.

Women's Top 10 Sexual Fantasies - HealthyPlace


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## Miskatonic (May 19, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> On another note.... I think GRRM is doing just fine with his books and TV show, and Terry Goodkind got a $750,000 check for his first book in a publishers bidding war...
> 
> So neither of them probably really care about this debate
> 
> And obviously their readers don't either.



Yeah I'm kind of jealous of GRRM. I wish I could be a paid writer that doesn't write anything. Then again that would mean I'm not really a writer.


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## FifthView (May 19, 2016)

Overall, my problem with the rape trope is when it's used in a _facile_ way to amp up sympathy, antipathy, or tension.  Of course, this could apply to just about any method for increasing those things.

I've mentioned torture a couple time already in this thread.  That bit I quoted from Writing Excuses ties into this, since I thought of torture first when those podcasters were listing their peeves.  It came home to me when reading  Lynn Flewelling's _Nightrunner_ series and in one novel one of the two MCs, who I'd been loving for the series so far, was captured and tortured.  Yes, yes, it had the effect of amping those thing up for me, horribly so as I'm sure it was intended to do.  But I thought, why?  Why?  Didn't seem to need doing, when nothing else similar had occurred yet in the series (nor after this incident), and felt like gratuitous violence/button-pushing.


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## Devor (May 19, 2016)

I've only seen two seasons of the show, but having read the books, I don't have any qualms with GRRM over rape.  His world is universally awful and the rape, at least to me, doesn't really stand out.  Sansa, for instance, spends a book or two being terrified it might happen, and it never even does.

Goodkind is nauseating about it, though.


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## Miskatonic (May 19, 2016)

I'd love to know how many of these books Miss Foster has actually read, or if she's just reading blogs and articles and making big assumptions.


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## Heliotrope (May 19, 2016)

It does seem to me that it is mostly writers who care about this stuff. Maybe because we read a lot? I don't know. Like, I bought Wizard's First Rule when I was 14, and I loved it. Honestly. I have no issue about saying that I loved it. At that time in my life it was perfect. Zedd the stereotypical skinny wizard who loved food, Khalan the stereotypical mysterious sorceress, Richard the stereotypical Gary Sue... It was my favorite series for a long time, despite the rape and torture. As a reader I just didn't know that these were all 'tropes' or 'cliches'. I just knew I liked the story. 

I think most readers don't think too much about it, honestly. But we seem to really care about this stuff as writers.


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## Ireth (May 19, 2016)

FifthView said:


> I've mentioned torture a couple time already in this thread.  That bit I quoted from Writing Excuses ties into this, since I thought of torture first when those podcasters were listing their peeves.  It came home to me when reading  Lynn Flewelling's _Nightrunner_ series and in one novel one of the two MCs, who I'd been loving for the series so far, was captured and tortured.  Yes, yes, it had the effect of amping those thing up for me, horribly so as I'm sure it was intended to do.  But I thought, why?  Why?  Didn't seem to need doing, when nothing else similar had occurred yet in the series (nor after this incident), and felt like gratuitous violence/button-pushing.



This makes me think of one of my WIPs. The MC, a Fae named Cadell, at one point kidnaps and briefly tortures a human character in misguided vengeance for a mistaken slight. Later on Cadell himself is captured and tortured (offscreen) by the antagonist's mooks, and it is this that opens his eyes to his own cruelty, by holding a mirror up to it. Thus he's inspired to be a better person and try making peace with the humans, rather than falling back on his people's customs of toying with them; this becomes one of his main motivators throughout the book. So in this case it does serve the plot in a very big way, and isn't just there for pointless violence.


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## FifthView (May 19, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> It does seem to me that it is mostly writers who care about this stuff. Maybe because we read a lot? I don't know. Like, I bought Wizard's First Rule when I was 14, and I loved it. Honestly. I have no issue about saying that I loved it. At that time in my life it was perfect. Zedd the stereotypical skinny wizard who loved food, Khalan the stereotypical mysterious sorceress, Richard the stereotypical Gary Sue... It was my favorite series for a long time, despite the rape and torture. As a reader I just didn't know that these were all 'tropes' or 'cliches'. I just knew I liked the story.
> 
> I think most readers don't think too much about it, honestly. But we seem to really care about this stuff as writers.



It could also be a matter of experience.  The first time or two or three someone pushes your buttons in a particular way?  _Success!_  But after awhile...a little tedious.


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## Nimue (May 19, 2016)

A) Jodie Foster's opinion was about film specifically, not fantasy books.  I doubt she's been reading blogs complaining about GRR Martin.

B) No one is saying rape can't be used well as a plot device and should be jettisoned, only that it has been overused in a shallow, cheap way across multiple media.

C) If you're looking for more examples, check out the Rape as Backstory trope.  It's a thing.


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## Nimue (May 19, 2016)

Miskatonic said:


> Here's a little food for thought. Look at #1 on this list. It's adult related content so view at your own discretion.
> 
> Women's Top 10 Sexual Fantasies - HealthyPlace



Also, this is seriously inappropriate.  Are you implying that because some women enjoy a certain sexual fantasy, that no one should be able to complain about it being plastered across non-erotic media as well?


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## Miskatonic (May 19, 2016)

Nimue said:


> Also, this is seriously inappropriate.  Are you implying that because some women enjoy a certain sexual fantasy, that no one should be able to complain about it being plastered across non-erotic media as well?



I just find it ironic.


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## Miskatonic (May 19, 2016)

Sheilawisz said:


> I would advice people to take this issue more seriously.
> 
> A very long time ago, we had a problem when people were bashing famous authors and one of them actually showed up here (using a different name) in order to defend him or herself. Please do not attack Jodie Foster personally in your posts, because she could be reading this and we do not want to look like a site that throws personal attacks at famous and generally admired people.
> 
> ...



She's entitled to her opinion. 

I seriously doubt she even knows this site exists.


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## T.Allen.Smith (May 19, 2016)

Let's move away from assumptions regarding what women in reality might or might not think, & back to how the topic is used in literature, or other media types. 

We're talking about writing here, and while we may dip into reality in the fashioning of our stories, we should refrain from moving our discussion toward societal issues & away from craft discussion. 

Keep it focused, please.


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## Reaver (May 19, 2016)

CupofJoe said:


> Everyone has an agenda, even if their agenda is "leave me alone".
> And I would be wary of saying she doesn't care about the issue. She may not express herself in a way that motivates you but it motivated her.
> As an aside are all the poster's in this thread male?
> I would be interesting to hear another perspective.
> As a white middle-class middle-aged man from a fairly comfortable background, I'm not sure I have the chops or experience [and maybe the right?] to comment with authority on some issues that others see as affecting them.



No one is commenting with any semblance of authority. I never claimed to be an expert or even know Jodi Foster.

Like others here, including you, I'm expressing my opinion. You and anyone else have the right to either agree, disagree or feel indifferent to the opinion.


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## Garren Jacobsen (May 19, 2016)

Hmm, maybe I have personal selection bias but I haven't read or consumed too many stories wherein Rape as Backstory occurred. The only significant one is A Song of Ice and Fire. However, I do agree with Ms. Foster in that there are so many other and better motivations for a woman to do something than just getting raped. A character is, after all, an individual person and so should have individual motivations. Some of them could be related to rape and molestation, but that would in some way have to relate to her doing as the character is doing in the story. Why can't she be politically motivated? Or why can't she want money? Or why can't she do it for her friends, brother, sister, child, mom, dad, self, etc.? It is just strange to me that there is so much rape as backstory. It kind of cheapens it, if you ask me, particularly if the whole rape thing doesn't tie much into the actual story,


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## Chessie (May 19, 2016)

Personally, I have a very hard time reading rape scenes or watching them on the tele. I'll put a book down if one comes up. I'll turn the t.v. off. But I've also known several women who've been raped and their experiences dealing with the trauma and the aftermath are horrifying. I don't like the way G.R.R. Martin portrays women in his books. I don't like the way sexual violence is used. I don't like that readers gobble that shit up and that there are rape fantasy books selling on Amazon right now. Rape is a very serious occurrence. A painful one that destroys lives and some women/children/men live in a depressed cycle for years and years because of it.

So my opinion is this: rape doesn't have a place in fantasy imo. Yes, it exists. Yes, we should talk to our kids about it. We don't shelter our son from much unless it's something his 8 yr old mind would do well to understand in a few years. But we read books and watch movies to escape reality. This is why I dislike GOT so much. Why would I want to read about rape, violence, incest, etc when it exists in the real world and I'm exposed to all of these things on the regular?

Although I'm not a Jodie fan much these days, she has a right to her opinion. And while I do think that rape can be used as a good plot device when appropriate, the point is missed in these sorts of debates. Using it in your story is one thing, but if you ever meet a rape survivor or are friends/related to one and see the journey they undertake, you might never read rape scenes again. Just saying.


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## T.Allen.Smith (May 19, 2016)

Chesterama said:


> And while I do think that rape can be used as a good plot device when appropriate, the point is missed in these sorts of debates. Using it in your story is one thing, but if you ever meet a rape survivor or are friends/related to one and see the journey they undertake, you might never read rape scenes again.


I certainly haven't missed that point, and I don't think most have. However, I will say that I believe pushing artists toward a point of censorship, where any charged subject is to be avoided, is a bad thing. 

I'm not saying this is what Foster is doing either. Rather, I think she's talking about the use as a cheap plot point, or a fallback device for weak, unimaginative writing. In those cases, I'd agree with her. Still, we must be equally careful to not suggest restrictions like "____________ has no place in the fantasy genre." Fiction (especially fantasy & SciFi) is one of the best vehicles to discuss harmful societal issues because it allows the consumer to view those issues from differing angles, and in a way that isn't tied directly to their day-to-day. 

Further, I want to clarify... I don't think anyone here is calling for those types of restrictions. I believe each is making a personal choice regarding their story telling and reading.


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## Chessie (May 19, 2016)

Well, I can say that it has no place in fantasy genre because it's how I feel about the given subject. Unless it's a story about how the victim survives the trauma and aftermath, then I don't want to read it. That's personal preference. Not a suggested restriction.


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## FifthView (May 19, 2016)

Chesterama said:


> But we read books and watch movies to escape reality.



This, or some variation of it, has appeared a few times recently in discussions, and I think it deserves a thread of its own.

But I'm not going to start that thread because I think it would grow contentious very quickly!


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## Sheilawisz (May 19, 2016)

One of my favorite movies ever is _The Lovely Bones_, based on a famous novel of the same name even though the film is quite different from the original material.

In the movie, we witness as 14-years old Susie Salmon is lured into an underground room by her neighbor George Harvey. We do not get to see any graphic stuff taking place, but it's very clear that Harvey wanted to rape and murder the teenage girl and he accomplished it successfully in the middle of that cornfield.

The movie does include rape as part of the tragedy, but the story is all about how Susan's family deals with the loss and how they slowly rebuild their lives. Susie comes to slowly accept that her life has ended and she has to move on, so that's the message of the film: Life goes on, you can recover even if terrible things happen to you.

In this case rape happened, but the issue was treated respectfully and the fact that the story is about emotional recovery makes all the difference to me.

I agree with Chesterama in her view that rape has no place in Fantasy. In case that I wanted to read about such things, all I have to do is to search for the real-world stories about teenage girls and young women that keep disappearing where I live just to be found dead in forests and sewers some time later.

Apparently they are kidnapped by the organized crime in order to be raped, tortured, murdered and then dumped like garbage at the mentioned forests and sewers. I have heard real stories that happen here and would make any GoT fan cringe, so why would I want to read about the same stuff in Fantasy too?

Rape and other extremely delicate subjects can be used in Fiction, but they must be treated with great caution and respect. After all, we are talking about stuff that shatters lives everyday.


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## Heliotrope (May 19, 2016)

Sheilawisz said:


> Rape and other extremely delicate subjects can be used in Fiction, but they must be treated with great caution and respect. After all, we are talking about stuff that shatters lives everyday.



I disagree with this 100%. 

While I never did read The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo, and I had to turn off the film, I cannot ever, _ever_, tell another author what they can and cannot write about. 

I absolutely do not agree that all fiction needs to be politically correct. I do not agree that all fiction need not offend. I do not agree that delicate subjects need to be treated with great caution and respect (100% of the time in fiction). 

I agree that we all have a choice in what we do and do not decide to read. But I cannot agree that we need to put standards and limitations on what authors choose to write.


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## Chessie (May 19, 2016)

No one is saying that writers can't write about rape or any other subject. For goodness's sake! Opinions and preferences are being mentioned, not censorship. Holy wow.


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## Sheilawisz (May 19, 2016)

What I mean is that a super delicate issue like rape can contribute as part of a good story, just like is the case with _The Lovely Bones_ for example. However, using it as cheap shock value just for the sake of it can be nauseating, and it makes loads of people very uncomfortable when that happens in a book or a movie.

In the case of Horror and Thrillers it's more justifiable to include such events in your story, but still, what is better? A deep, powerful story in which rape is treated as a complex and important issue, or one that features it like just another shocking element to frighten readers or watchers?

In any case, I believe that Fantasy is more about escaping to other worlds than about reliving the horrors of our own world. Sure that terrible things happen in my own Fantasy settings too, but I do not portray them in graphic detail.

Fantasy battles, monsters running around and people dying are very common in our genre, but... There is _something_ in rape that makes it much more serious than the other stuff, for some reason it's much darker and I feel that many times the issue is treated wrong.


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## Heliotrope (May 19, 2016)

Yes, I agree with you here. 



Sheilawisz said:


> What I mean is that a super delicate issue like rape can contribute as part of a good story, just like is the case with _The Lovely Bones_ for example. However, using it as cheap shock value just for the sake of it can be nauseating, and it makes loads of people very uncomfortable when that happens in a book or a movie.
> 
> In the case of Horror and Thrillers it's more justifiable to include such events in your story, but still, what is better? A deep, powerful story in which rape is treated as a complex and important issue, or one that features it like just another shocking element to frighten readers or watchers?
> 
> ...


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## T.Allen.Smith (May 19, 2016)

Chesterama said:


> No one is saying that writers can't write about rape or any other subject. For goodness's sake! Opinions and preferences are being mentioned, not censorship. Holy wow.



That's not what is being said though. It's been mentioned more than once that these things have no place in fantasy, with a later mention of personal choices.  

Of course everyone has a personal choice and their opinion, whichever side they may fall on is justified...for them.  

But, whenever some trigger warning subject is batted around, the opposition to its use does verge toward censorship, which is very bad for creative arts. Sometimes an artist wants to offend. 

Further, no one is talking about using grave subject matters flippantly. We are debating the opposite, that using those subjects appropriately should not be discouraged.


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## FifthView (May 19, 2016)

I do disagree that rape is worse than physical torture + dismemberment + being eaten alive by some creature.

And so this touches again on that idea of "escaping reality" in fantasy media when that idea is used as a reason for avoiding writing certain things into a story.

The problem is an all-too-human problem:   What is not _my_ reality may not seem as real, and thus not as serious or troublesome, quite apart from a consideration of whether it is something that actually happens somewhere else, to other people, in our real world.  And so a writer and/or reader might be more sensitive to things than another writer and/or reader will be.


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## Heliotrope (May 19, 2016)

^^^ I actually stopped watching GOT when the King's Guard killed the king's bastard son (infant) in the brothel. 

That for me was the limit. 

When I tell other people that they look at me like I'm crazy. Like _that_ was what did it for me? Out of all the terrible stuff?


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## Reaver (May 19, 2016)

Heliotrope said:


> ^^^ I actually stopped watching GOT when the King's Guard killed the king's bastard son (infant) in the brothel.
> 
> That for me was the limit.
> 
> When I tell other people that they look at me like I'm crazy. Like _that_ was what did it for me? Out of all the terrible stuff?



I can relate. I tried watching GOT but the first time they showed some old dude's privates, that was it for me. I decided to start binge watching Hercules and Xena instead.

Here's me when I saw that on GOT:


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## skip.knox (May 19, 2016)

I agree with T.Allen.Smith. Foster's point is that relying on rape as a motivational factor for a female character to drive her to action is employed far too often as a device. Or, rather, in far too many cases it is simply lazy writing. 

*All* motivations should be carefully examined by an author. Another common plot device is: the bad guys slaughtered my family, or even my village. Of course a violent act can drive a character into action, but when it's employed repeatedly in poor to mediocre novels, it's right and proper for critics to call out the author on the point.

As a matter of fact, few of us have any sort of empathetic understanding of what it means to have one's village destroyed. When an author employs this device, he is not really evoking the experience and its aftermath, he's simply saying "and here's why my MC is really mad and it justifies whatever the MC does later in the story." As such, it trivializes the experience.

I read the critique of rape as a motivational device as being rather the same sort of thing. It's a weak prop for a story, and it cheapens the real-life event. If the author can make the device really work, then fine; at that point, it's a matter of taste for the reader. The criticism is aimed at the lazy ones, asking that they reconsider based on the wider considerations Foster brought to bear.


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## Devor (May 20, 2016)

Concerning Jodi Foster, is it possible that people send her certain scripts _because_ of her performance in The Accused?  Like she's been typecast in the eyes of some producer or script writers?


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## FifthView (May 20, 2016)

Devor said:


> Concerning Jodi Foster, is it possible that people send her certain scripts _because_ of her performance in The Accused?  Like she's been typecast in the eyes of some producer or script writers?



It could be, or even if not then perhaps she's just in a position to read more scripts than we, who are not in the industry, will ever see in a completed movie.   There's also the possibility that, as with many pet peeves, the irritation caused by a handful of events can seem to outweigh a far larger number of non-occurrences.  I wonder how many good scripts actually feature a leading role for women?  This has often been mentioned as a problem, and men do seem to have an edge on number of scripts featuring a male leading role.  (Example:  Marvel superhero franchises.  A recent news story mentioned that Marvel rejected using a female villain in Iron Man 3 because.....the toy figure wouldn't sell as well.)  So maybe that disparity helps to highlight even more the handful of stories featuring some rape backstory.


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