# Language, runes and other such things.



## HÃ«radÃ¯n (Sep 9, 2011)

Do the people in your worlds have a language? in your story does anyone speak it, or do you allude to there being a language that isn't English/Swahili/Nihongo/etc? Have you made up runes? an alphabet? an abjad? perhaps a syllibary kanji thing the Japanese and ancient Greeks (linear B) had? perhaps a strict Hanzi type system like Chinese (good luck with that one )? perhaps something I don't know about?

in any case, I have a proto-language working in my mind, though I only use it for naming places and such. I do have an full alphabet that has 25 consonants and 10 vowels. with commas and periods for punctuation. it is modest, but I have memorized most of the letters and frequently write my notes using my alphabet 

what about you guys?


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## Ravana (Sep 9, 2011)

Heh. "Yes," to nearly all of the above, in various combinations, permutations and number of discrete attempts. I will say it's not for the meek. On the other hand, neither was majoring in linguistics....


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## Misusscarlet (Sep 9, 2011)

My story alludes to it. I was thinking of toying with creating a language or 3 but alas i would have to study about it real hard. Either that or make up my own.


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## Shadoe (Sep 9, 2011)

Right now, I'm going with everyone speaking a common language, but if I expand my world further, I'll be coming up with people who speak a different language. I do insert world-specific words, though. I'm going with the concept that the people are all actually speaking a different language, but I'm translating, except for those words that don't have an English equivalent. For instance, there is an Emperor who is called an "Emperor," but there are "Siars," also.


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## Digital_Fey (Sep 9, 2011)

I went through a phase when I thought it would be great to develop a language for my fantasy world - a sort of 'old tongue' that would only be used by the higher classes or those learned in magic. Somewhere along the line I realized that I was no philologist, and gave it up. These days I can't be bothered, although I still use a botched runic alphabet/code for personal notes. Invented languages are awesome if done skillfully, but I also get annoyed with books that have lengthy glossaries in the back. Too often, less experienced fantasy writers just use it as a means of showing off (I'm looking at you, Christopher Paolini).


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## Misusscarlet (Sep 9, 2011)

That's a good point, when I read a book I don't want to keep flipping to the glossary if I find a word in the book that I don't understand.


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## myrddin173 (Sep 9, 2011)

I do have plans to create a language for world that is what most would call a language of magic.  I envisioned it as a sort of magical legalese (lawyer speak) as contracts written in the language are binding.  I suppose mages could use it for incantations but mages are few and far between, that gift is the rarest of them all, everyone though has a "knack" as Pat Rothfuss put it in The Name of the Wind.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Sep 9, 2011)

I used to like the idea of creating a language, but I don't think I'd get very far with it. Plus, I agree that Digital Fey and missusscarlet.


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## Ravana (Sep 10, 2011)

Believe me, it's more trouble than it's worth, unless you're doing it mainly because you enjoy creating languages, and you just happen to think it might be good for your story, too. (And if you're that sort of person, you're sick, probably in need of professional help, and you and I will get along just fine.  )

A few months ago, when a version of this question first came up, I posted a lengthy (as usual  ) two-part mini-introduction to the aspects of linguistics that most writers would find useful, in terms of creating something systematic that would sound like a single language... most of which involves making some up-front choices in what sounds and sound combinations are allowed, and then sticking to them. This is more than sufficient for people who only want to generate names (and perhaps the occasional exclamation or swear word). It consists of the last post on the first page and the first one on the second page of this thread:

http://mythicscribes.com/forums/world-building/67-fantasy-languages.html

For more ambitious souls, the same procedures can be used to "cheat" your way through short (sentence-long) utterances: take an existing language that isn't particularly familiar to most English readers, make a few systematic changes in phonology, and see what comes out. Or go a step farther and alter the language's normal word order, add or eliminate a few "function" words (prepositions, determiners, and such), change some of the basic morphology by adding, subtracting or simplifying prefixes and suffixes. (I do this all the time, by the way... so I'm allowed to call it "cheating" if I want to.  )

The key word in both cases is "systematic." As long as you do the same thing every time, it will hold together as a language--will actually hold together, as a _real_ language, not just "seem" like one: anybody who knew the input language and the new rules you made would be able to communicate in it--and has the advantage that it can always be expanded whenever you want, without your needing to "invent" anything new for it. Probably the trickiest part is finding an input language you're happy with... and have access to reference materials on. (And I most emphatically do _not_ mean an online translation program--though you'll certainly be able to produce a language no one understands by using one....)

Note that the original pair of posts deals only with phonology and a brief bit of morphology, since it was targeted for those who were mainly interested in a "naming" language. If anyone wants additional information regarding morphology and syntax (how words go together in sentences, what we normally think of as "grammar"), I'm always happy to provide the extra detail.


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## SeverinR (Sep 13, 2011)

Ravana said:


> Heh. "Yes," to nearly all of the above, in various combinations, permutations and number of discrete attempts. I will say it's not for the meek. On the other hand, neither was majoring in linguistics....


That is exactly why creating a language was only a passing thought. I couldn't learn Spanish(4 yrs grade school/HS) German(living there for 2 years), Greek (lived there one year.) And worst of all, when trying to think of the words I wanted to say...
My mind set english and all other languages. If I wanted to say dog in german, Perro was the only thing I could think of. 
When trying to form a sentence I would catch myself trying to throw in a spanish verb in a german sentence.

So how could I create a language?  
I drop a Tolken word or two in a few books, one book I wrote in alot of Quenderin, then I realized it wasn't a real language thus using it in a book would mean conflict if I were to be published.  The few words I use now, I can alter spelling and no one would tie it to tolken.  I did give learning Quenderin a try too, but no one understands German-spanish-elvish, so I didn't get to far.

Eem Eshai'du - or was anyway.


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## HÃ«radÃ¯n (Sep 13, 2011)

I look 2 semesters of Japanese about a year and a half ago and I can still sort of speak it ok. I have a goal of becoming fluent in Japanese.


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## mythique890 (Sep 13, 2011)

@Ravana - I also studied linguistics!  Just as an undergrad, and have yet to do much with it, but I seriously love it.

Anyway, I haven't tried to create a language for any of my stuff because so far it's all set in 'this' world.  If I were to attempt a language of my own, though, I'd steal some starting material--most likely Indo-European roots--and make up some rules to apply to the roots themselves (change /v/ to /b/ or /f/ to /s/ for example), stick them together to form words, and pick a grammar system I like.

But really, that's a lot of work.  Even though I have thought of coming up with a few complex runes for my story about dragons.  The problem there is that I like to draw, and I'm ok, but not good enough for what I have in mind.  What I really need is to make friends with an artist.


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## Ravana (Sep 14, 2011)

SeverinR said:


> My mind set english and all other languages. If I wanted to say dog in german, Perro was the only thing I could think of.
> When trying to form a sentence I would catch myself trying to throw in a spanish verb in a german sentence.



Yep, that's exactly how the mind works. If you don't learn the language growing up, it actually gets stored in a different part of your brain than your native language(s). So whenever you try "translating," it accesses the "non-English" data, no matter what its from. Only with considerable practice will you see that interference disappear. (I had the same two languages going, by the way. What was even funnier was the German teachers telling me I spoke with a Spanish--not an American!--accent... and then, after I'd switched back, the Spanish teachers telling me I spoke with a German one.)

@mythique890: Cool. Can be a lot of fun, though most people never seem to get into it. Thinking about how language works isn't the most intuitive of exercises, I suppose.


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## Bass_Thunder37 (Sep 14, 2011)

Well, one of my stories is taking place in an Italy-Clone Country for the first half. At that point, I use complete english, though it's implied he's speaking another language. But at one point, the main character travels to a Wales-esque country. And there, he speaks in an altered version of Italian I created. Swapping all _s_ with _f_(except for plurals), placing the words in reverse order, and removing all prepositions. Nobody has any idea what's going on, until somebody finds a translator that teaches him to speak the common language for the rest of the world. He then uses basic language(english) with an occasional Italian word thrown in for effect.

So I kinda use another language.


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## Argentum (Sep 15, 2011)

SeverinR said:


> That is exactly why creating a language was only a passing thought. I couldn't learn Spanish(4 yrs grade school/HS) German(living there for 2 years), Greek (lived there one year.) And worst of all, when trying to think of the words I wanted to say...
> My mind set english and all other languages. If I wanted to say dog in german, Perro was the only thing I could think of.
> When trying to form a sentence I would catch myself trying to throw in a spanish verb in a german sentence.



Oh my! That's just like me! My father is fluent in spanish, so we learned a bit from him. Then I tried to learn french and it didn't work out. Whenever someone asks "how are you?" in spanish, I'm always trying to say "Oui, bien gracias, avou?" Or however you spell it. And then I know a little bit of Japanese and Korean and how awful is it to try and remind yourself just what language to respond in!

@ Ravana, thank you for directing me to those posts of yours about language creations! I've been trying for years to create 3 separate languages (just the basics). I will study those posts of yours and see how I do.


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## Ravana (Sep 15, 2011)

Quite welcome. And that _is_ just the basics: getting the sound system down, which, as mentioned, meets the extent of most authors' needs. If you want advice on other things (or more on that, for that matter), feel free to PM me. (Anyone else can, too.  ) Always happy to talk linguistics.


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## BeenCreatedToCreate (Sep 21, 2011)

*Nerd alert* I've created a language. Just as much for my own use as for my story. Though I'm not sure if I didn't go a little overboard translating the dictionary... I agree that excessive use of foreign language can become tedious to people reading stories that contain such. But, with the correct amount of language applied to a story can also enhance the believability of your world. Alternate languages are certainly a beautiful aspect to any story.


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## ShortHair (Sep 21, 2011)

My current world has its own language. I haven't done anything about fleshing it out because I believe that that only confuses the reader. If the project takes off, I'd like to make a graphic novel out of it too, and then there'd _have_ to be a language.


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## Ghost (Sep 22, 2011)

I haven't gotten far because I've decided I want to know which languages descend from a common proto-language, which influenced each other, and which aren't related at all. Because of that, I'm quite a ways away from making alphabets.



Ravana said:


> Believe me, it's more trouble than it's worth, unless you're doing it mainly because you enjoy creating languages, and you just happen to think it might be good for your story, too. (And if you're that sort of person, you're sick, probably in need of professional help, and you and I will get along just fine.  )



I originally created AG to host my own versions of myths but it quickly degenerated into a mess of languages. The languages are my favorite thing, but the only real influence they'll have in my stories is to provide consistent naming in different cultures. It will also make it easier to distinguish foreigners by having their grammar and pronunciation affect their speech. (Am I the only one tired of authors mimicking awful "Scottish" accents for everyone from dwarves to orcs?) I like that I can pull loanwords out of my languages.

There isn't a really good reason to do all that work unless you enjoy it. Those linguistic quirks could be easily faked. As a writer, having that level of detail is helpful, but as a reader, it doesn't matter if someone developed a language or faked it. As long as it's consistent and it's not thrown into the book at every opportunity, I'm okay with it.


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## UnionJane (Sep 25, 2011)

One of the fun things about language is that it's not just about vocabulary and making up your own--there are lots of little squirrelly details like dialects, syntax, and conjugation. In my stories, I try and develop a unique dialect for the area, something to give the reader a sense of the character's background, level of education, regional base when I can. It's difficult, but coming up with slang can be fun too--as long as it's done well and without being overzealous, which is the hard part.


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## Ophiucha (Sep 25, 2011)

I've got a decent linguistics background (I both took linguistics and have taken a year in about six languages), so - tedious though it is - I do have a good base for conlanging, and I'm not as reluctant to do it as I am other worldbuilding endeavours. Like economies. Never ask me about my world's economy, because the answer is and always will be "I've got a name for the money, what more do you need?", followed by a bit of crying in the corner. And on that note, I will say that I think a conlang is as important as an economy, which is to say, it depends on the story. More than just about anything, I think we can blame this one on Tolkien. Not that he did it poorly - he created a pretty great language - but it's one of those things we expect because Lord of the Rings codified fantasy. Of course, it also depends on how thoroughly you create your language. If you want about a third of your book to be Elvish poetry, or your story is about decoding ancient, dwarfish runes, then you may need to create a rather thorough conlang. If you want to name your characters and your cities, that's basically the functional equivalent of coming up with a vague coinage and leaving your economy at that. And that's fine.


For my current projects, in particular, one just uses Welsh because I don't care that much. The other one has a few naming languages, but I am working on a fully developed music language. The world has four or five sapient species - one which is vaguely humanoid, one vaguely rodent-esque, one vaguely cephalopod-esque, and one which is a spider of some sort. It is the only way the species can communicate, since they cannot speak or understand each other's languages, but they can all hear (or, at least, feel vibrations and decipher them accordingly). It's more about pitch and rhythm than anything, so the concerns are pretty different than that of most Earth languages. And the naming languages aren't based on any one Earth culture, either.


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## Kevlar (Sep 26, 2011)

I have some very basic words developed in quite a few different languages for my world, but I downloaded a program called WeSay (I think that's what its called anyway) and started fleshing out one of my languages in that. I plan on changing a lot of names of a lot of things as soons as I get a decent dictionary up, though I already have some of it developed and need to search for these notes. Some are kind of hard to forget, like that one character's name, Talinos, means courageous/valorous. Others simply stuck in my head, such as, through suffixes, arwÃ© zothanÃ»l means 'anger to consume me.' I forget what the word for 'the' is, or if I even decided to have one. Need to find the notes. I also have anglicized versions of some of my words. For instance, thÃ©a, meaning existence/Earth etc. Can also be spelled theÃ¤ or thÃ©Ã¤, or perhaps thea, though usually only in the form Althea (east-earth) referring to the continent my story takes place on. 

I actually really like linguistics exercises, though I'm not trained in the field. I love creating systems that aren't based on real ones, though this is extremely tough, and I do not yet believe I've fully succeeded. Most of all I just love the freedom, the experimentation and the creation, and then finally being able to use that syntax and lexicon you've worked so hard on. Unfortunately most of the languages I've made have been marred by cancerous mistakes and inconsistencies, eventually falling apart. None have also ever went above 2 - 300 words, and most haven't even hit 100. I hope to break the record this time.

Also, a final note: I do NOT believe my story absolutely needs all the conlangs I have small bases for, or even just one conlang. I do believe that would add something huge to my work, but that is not why I do it. For some reason I simply love doing it.

Call me crazy and throw rocks at me if you wish.


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## Ravana (Sep 26, 2011)

Kevlar said:


> I love creating systems that aren't based on real ones, though this is extremely tough



Some linguists, at least, would tell you it's impossible: you're human, and your brain is hardwired to treat linguistic data in certain ways. I'm not among them; on the other hand, given the vast variety of human languages, it would be difficult not to duplicate something that exists somewhere, even if only accidentally. 



> Unfortunately most of the languages I've made have been marred by cancerous mistakes and inconsistencies, eventually falling apart. None have also ever went above 2 - 300 words, and most haven't even hit 100.



Right–see my "tutorials" on how to start out. (Which may someday get expanded with higher-level categories. When I have time.  ) It's far more important to establish basic process rules at the outset than to start making up words. The words, in fact, should be the last thing you do, if you're serious about creating a full language. Phonology and phonotactics, morphology, syntax… then words. (Which, of course, is why most people never do this.)



> For some reason I simply love doing it.
> 
> Call me crazy and throw rocks at me if you wish.



Good on you. Yes, you're crazy. No rocks from this quarter, though. 

-

UnionJane: For good examples of how to make "easy" dialectal variations, look up some English-based pidgins–Tok Pisin being the one you're most likely to find extensive documentation on (and in!), as it is no longer a "pidgin": it's now the national language of Papua New Guinea. They provide intriguing hints of what's most likely to get changed, and how, and you get to see it in the context of a full language. It may look completely foreign at first, but with a bit of practice you can read it off the page easier than you can read Chaucer. For instance: how long does it take you to recognize this?



> Papa bilong mipela
> Yu stap long heven.
> Nem bilong yu i mas i stap holi.
> Kingdom bilong yu i mas i kam. …



Probably, you aren't going to want to make quite as extensive changes, nor identical ones: the point here is to see where variations are most likely to occur, and in what directions (simplification, retasking of function words, changes in word order, etc.). Pidgins are, by definition, blends of two languages, borrowing vocabulary from both and in general using the underlying syntax of the "contact" language (that is, the local one, in this case the non-English one); what's interesting about the above is that there isn't a single (originally) non-English word in it. (A couple show up in the balance of the text.) Some aren't immediately obvious… but I'll bet you can figure out what most of the originals were.


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## Kevlar (Sep 26, 2011)

Ravana said:
			
		

> Rightsee my "tutorials" on how to start out. (Which may someday get expanded with higher-level categories. When I have time.  ) It's far more important to establish basic process rules at the outset than to start making up words. The words, in fact, should be the last thing you do, if you're serious about creating a full language. Phonology and phonotactics, morphology, syntax then words. (Which, of course, is why most people never do this.)



Actually, for the past year or two I've always developed phonology, then syntax, then sort of put morphology and lexicon in together. Never really considered phonotactics, though I guess I really should. I might just work on that when I get home.

My early attempts were atrocious. And then I started putting together some methods and doing research, and lo and behold, some of what I was doing had names, like phonology and syntax instead of sounds and grammar.

I'll check in on your earlier post. You majored in lingustics, so I'd be a bit of an idiot to ignore your advice.


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## Dark Guardian (Sep 27, 2011)

Sounds like too much work to me. I make up a few words when I need them, that's all.


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## Ghost (Sep 27, 2011)

It's only work if you don't enjoy it.


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## Ravana (Sep 27, 2011)

Kevlar said:


> Actually, for the past year or two I've always developed phonology, then syntax, then sort of put morphology and lexicon in together. Never really considered phonotactics, though I guess I really should. I might just work on that when I get home.



Phonotactics is primarily important for three things: (1) keeping the words consistent by making advance decisions on which sounds are allowed to be adjacent to one another and which aren't; (2) figuring out how foreign words will be reanalyzed into your language; and (3) providing a guide to what happens when you start using your morphology. (An example of the last is the English prefix "in-", which becomes "im-" when placed in front of a labial (p, b, or m). I think the others have sufficient examples in the other post, but I can't remember if that one did or not.)

Sounds like you're well along the right track, at any rate.


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## Emeria (Oct 3, 2011)

I don't have much experience with languages (took a few years of Spanish in secondary school, Latin in university, picked up a little Japanese, Hebrew and Greek from more "practical" endeavours), but I've been working a little on a language for the world I'm working on and writing from.  Mostly, it is for names of places and things that do not translate well into English.  One of my characters narrates and tends to use native words to describe certain ideas and given that words are spelled differently in English just about every time I write them, I'm pretty sure that their language has a written form where the sounds are important, not the individual letters.  The little bit that I've dabbled has proven to be both interesting and challenging.


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## Elishimar (Oct 6, 2011)

I have drawn up a set of runes, that I regularly write in. They are the equivalent to English letters but look different. I had a plan drawn out where every English vowel and consonant were separated from the alphabet and I switched their values around, but this got confusing for a bit. I am not sure how I want to move forward from here, but for now I am just making up nonsense words and writing their English equivalent in my rune system.


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