# I seem to have everything... except a plot!



## Gecks (Jul 16, 2013)

Please help with any general advice you have. I should admit initially I have extremely limited practice in writing any sort of continuous prose other than extremely boring essays when I was at uni... (however, I write a lot of verse / not-quite-poems which are generally satire or comedy, so I can use words and stuff - but apparently only when they rhyme!). But I read a lot of fantasy and for some reason believed I should be able to write some. . . (oops)

I seem to have clearly in my head formed an idea of what my world is like,. and the main characters, down to their looks and personalities and backgrounds and so on. I have a fairly clear idea of the type of 'magic' in my world and how it works. I even have imagined various 'scenes' and interaction... I have even written some of this out. 

But I don't have any overriding plot. 

I think this might be because I used to do a lot of text based role-play actually (hmm, I lied in my first paragraph then.. I have written prose fiction stuff, but it has been all character profiles, and then text based fantasy roleplay in an online chat room or whatever - and the worlds would have been already created, not by me). So I'm good at coming up with small scenarios and stuff but I can't seem to work out any sort of larger scale plot. 

Please does anyone have any tips or advice for me? 

(I realise I probably sound completely ridiculous, but my story is gonna be awfully boring if it's just some people existing, nothing happens, and then the end!)

Thanks


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## Trick (Jul 16, 2013)

Well, this is a big question and I'm not sure I can answer it, exactly, but I'll try to help. You need conflict to have a plot. Character A has to accomplish task A so that Villain B doesn't accomplish Task B. Or two characters who may both think they are good have to be at odds and try to stop or undue eachothers goals. Or whatever... Really, the plot of a book can be epic and world wide or it can all take place in one location if you have conflict and logical* actions and reactions. Try watching the videos on the 7 point plot system for help: Dan Wells on Story Structure, part 1 of 5 - YouTube

EDIT: I would add that you can watch any movie or read any book that you enjoy and take notes on how the plot progresses. Once you've done this a few times you may get a better idea of how to build a plot.

*logical is not meant to imply characters can't act illogically, just that people, readers, will accept their actions as plausible. Lashing out and killing someone for an insult isn't necessarily logical but it happens and is believable in the right context.


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## Steerpike (Jul 16, 2013)

A) What do your characters want most?
B) What are the most terrible and threatening roadblocks you can throw at them to keep them from getting it?


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## Gecks (Jul 16, 2013)

> Well, this is a big question and I'm not sure I can answer it, exactly, but I'll try to help.



Haha, I'm sorry! I realise it's such a big question it's almost ridiculous. Don't worry, I'm not expecting a miracle answer/solution, just some ideas or tips on what others do when they get stuck for plot ideas. 

I don't have so much problem coming up with ideas for conflict actually, just issues with coming up with the solutions! Unfortunately, in my scenarios in my head, it seems that the 'bad guy' is always gonna win cause I seem to block all the outs. Maybe, I should just write my story with evil people as the target audience.. or stick to writing jokes. 

But thanks really, both of you who have answered, it really is helpful. Steerpike, A) is a question I somehow haven't asked myself and now you've typed it it seems super obvious!


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## Scribble (Jul 16, 2013)

For your first effort, there's nothing wrong with taking an existing plot skeleton and trying to fit your characters and setting onto it. If you want to write a hero story, you can try the old "Hero's Journey". It's not original, but it can give you a direction at least. A kind of skeleton you can pile some meat on and learn how to do it.








Here is an infographic that shows the plot points of the Lion King, The Great Gatsby, and Ramayana in terms of the hero's journey.

(The image was shrunk in the image tag, here is a link to the site) The HeroÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Journey Ã¢â‚¬“ An Infographic | Kiran Lokhande







The Hero's Journey, or Monomyth, is described here on Wikipedia: Monomyth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 16, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> A) What do your characters want most?
> B) What are the most terrible and threatening roadblocks you can throw at them to keep them from getting it?



This....and I'll add a bit.

Once you figure out the motivations of your characters, pit them against one another (or themselves)...make the setting itself an obstacle...make the troubles as urgent as you can. Your plot can be the device that forces characters into action but your characters can also be responsible for the plot creation.

Start simple... Pick 2 of your favorite characters that seem like their personalities or goals would clash. Build off of the struggle.


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## skip.knox (Jul 16, 2013)

Don't be afraid to start with the mundane. If you have some characters, and some places, start them in Place A and they are to get to Place B. You can get quite a few words in just describing them, describing Place A, describing the journey. They have conversations. There's no conflict in any of this and what you write may never see the light of day, but don't worry about it. You're a noob. Believe me, just getting a clear narrative from Place A to Place B will be exercise enough.

Now, if you seem to be rolling along and it's the third day or whatever and it's all getting dull, suddenly a bear jumps out!

Doesn't need to be a bear. Bandits, a man on fire, dragon, or a fiery bandit dragon. Or, if you prefer, a burning settlement, an injured person, or some other thing needing help. Regardless of the situation you throw, your characters should react in different ways. If they all react the same way, then you have different names but you don't yet have different characters. This is way harder than it sounds, or at least it is for me. I often don't know what sort of people my characters are until I put them in situations. I like to think I've got them defined beforehand, but I wind up tossing most of it once we get on the ground and the bear comes running out. Another thing that can happen is that three of your party do things but two don't seem to do much of anything, other than "me too".  That's another clue.

To state all the above more succinctly, don't start out by trying to save the world. The plots will be too grand, too heavy for you to carry. Start out with a simple tavern fight, a bear attack, an act of kindness or protection. You can always save the world later, or even invent a new one!


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## Mara Edgerton (Jul 16, 2013)

Hi Geks!

Have you given a thought to what kind of plot you like to read? Puzzle plots (mystery stories), quest plots (often good with the Hero's Journey), romance plots, (boy meets girl, or boy meets boy, or girl meets girl and so on), escape plots (focusing on the gritty details of planning and attempting to escape a prison or dungeon or whatever),  rescue plots, revenge plots--you get the idea.

If you think about what kind of plot you really like to read or watch, you'll probably have a good idea of what kind you want to write. That, combined with your setting and character motivations should give you a decent jumping off point!

Hope this helps.


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## Weaver (Jul 16, 2013)

I have been known to throw characters into situations/settings that are not part of their usual experiences, and then watch what happens.  It's one thing to move a character out of his/her comfort zone, and quite another to shove them out of the world as they know it.  In fact, _a lot _of fantasy fiction is about 'normal' characters who suddenly find themselves in a 'not normal' setting or situation.  (Sorry I cannot spout the correct jargon right now.  Just getting over being non-verbal for a while.)


"You can always save the world later, or even invent a new one!"  What if you save the world AND invent a new one, and that is what leads to the plot complications?  Hmmm?


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 17, 2013)

When I start a story, I typically only have a character and a situation.  I sit down, put epen to epaper and write.  Part of the fun is discovering what happens.

Granted, doing it this way probably means you'll have to do a lot of revising later, but it can be a neat way to create your story.

Besides, from the way you describe your ability, the important thing right now is to write, not to create your masterpiece.  To be honest, in a year you'll be horribly embarrassed by what you write right now.


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## Jabrosky (Jul 17, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> When I start a story, I typically only have a character and a situation.  I sit down, put epen to epaper and write.  Part of the fun is discovering what happens.
> 
> Granted, doing it this way probably means you'll have to do a lot of revising later, but it can be a neat way to create your story.


Just how much thought do you put into these characters beforehand? Do you make them up as you go the way you do the rest of the story, or do you need to outline their motivations and personalities before the actual writing process?

I'm still searching for a method that reliably works for me. I probably lie closer to the outlining side of the spectrum insofar as I definitely need an idea of where I'm going as I write, but I don't necessarily have to write these outlines down on scrap paper. Alas, half the battle is searching for an idea that's worthy of a story to begin with. Sometimes I have these flashes of inspiration that allow me to write a story within a couple of days at the most, but the rest of the time I search for ideas to the point of getting a literal headache.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 17, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> Just how much thought do you put into these characters beforehand? Do you make them up as you go the way you do the rest of the story, or do you need to outline their motivations and personalities before the actual writing process?
> 
> I'm still searching for a method that reliably works for me. I probably lie closer to the outlining side of the spectrum insofar as I definitely need an idea of where I'm going as I write, but I don't necessarily have to write these outlines down on scrap paper. Alas, half the battle is searching for an idea that's worthy of a story to begin with. Sometimes I have these flashes of inspiration that allow me to write a story within a couple of days at the most, but the rest of the time I search for ideas to the point of getting a literal headache.



Depends on the piece.

For a short story, the character and plot are literally (or literarily?) revealed to me line by line as I type it.  For my main WIP, I had a pretty good idea of character and direction.  I just didn't know exactly I was going to get from point A to point B.


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## Gecks (Jul 17, 2013)

Thanks everyone for these replies. I have written an initial ~1000 words, which is probably not very much to many of you, but it is an awful lot to me (I haven't written much anything for a long time)



BWFoster78 said:


> To be honest, in a year you'll be horribly embarrassed by what you write right now.



No worries, I'm horribly embarrassed now 

But anyway, these replies have all been helpful, so I'm going over them while trying to actually put something on paper (er.. well, Word document) or else I'll never write it down ever. (If I keep up my pace, I might finish within the decade).


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## ThinkerX (Jul 18, 2013)

I used to just sit down and start writing.  Usually, I ended up writing myself into a box, or other untenable situation.

Anymore, I start by trying to envision a situation:

With 'Shadow Sea', its a man cast ashore on a remote island in a time of invasion.

With 'Labyrinth', it was a group of people roaming a giant maze, gradually loosing their identity.

With 'Empire: Country' it was a group of mercentile agents stumbling across the scene of a massacre is a supposedly 'safe' area.

Then I try to envision what happens next, which involves getting into the goals and motivations of the characters.

With 'Shadow Sea', the castaway is a military officer determined to get back to the fighting - only to find himself fleeing from a pirate attack.

With 'Labyrinth', the characters have a definite goal, which both motivates them to penetrate deeply into the Labyrinth and attempt escape.

'Empire: Country' is a little trickier, as the second half of the story stems from another 'out of the blue' catastrophe.

Plus, if I can't come up with definite, logical events for a beginning, middle, and end to a tale, I don't even start anymore.  Now, there can be gaps or problems with those events, but they have to exist in some way at the beginning.


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## It's a Squirrel...Moose? (Jul 18, 2013)

My personal opinion is that plot is wholly reliant upon the length of the story. With stories of less then 4000 words - a plot is unnecessary as it simply takes up too much space! Indeed, I feel that at times the writer tries too hard to get a plot into every piece; with the result being that the story feels rushed.

I do not believe that a plot has to be complete in order to be effective. A story where nothing happens but is an enjoyable read is much, much better then a story where the hero defeats the dark lord in a 2000 word drag race that leaves the reader scratching their head. 

Whenever I start to plot an idea - my first impulse is to immediately put my characters through action scenes - whereas the most effective stories that I have written has started almost purely from the character. For example (I write mainly historical based stories) I've just jotted down an idea of a Monk in 16th century England going back to his family after his Monastery was dissolved. Here the plot is straightforward - the man goes back to his family. It is quite easy to think 'aha! how about he meets a burgler on the way back!' or 'he's a catholic, and thus he in the dead of night he sneaks across the channel and becomes a fearless missionary in Rome!" - all fine lines - but soon the idea has become a novel and I'm left with another project in the bin simply because I don't have time to do the proper research.

Instead - I tone down the plot, almost remove it in fact - and instead focus on a singular event - the monk arriving home. A relatively straightforward piece can therefore be planned around the story... and I can leave the character of the classy pirate lass with a love of cheddar in the pit where it belongs! 

A longer prose obviously needs a plot in order to give it structure - but again - I feel that one must be careful with how a plot is conceived - as a plot is _tough_ to write, and nothing sinks a story quicker then a bad plot.


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## Weaver (Jul 18, 2013)

It's a Squirrel...Moose? said:


> With stories of less then 4000 words - a plot is unnecessary as it simply takes up too much space!



I think that your definition of "plot" may be different from what most of us are using.


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## wino (Jul 19, 2013)

You don't choose plots, plots choose you.


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## A. E. Lowan (Jul 19, 2013)

Gecks, one of my favorite bits of advice to give out, and I toss this one around like candy, is Conflict = Story.  Basically, it's shorthand for the 2 points Steerpike gave you earlier.  1) What do your characters want most.  2) What roadblocks can you throw in their way?  What I love to do, when I realize my story is slowing down, is to take a good look at these characters who I love dearly and ask myself, "How can I royally screw up this guy's day?"

Now, here's the trick - you do this to your protagonists AND your antagonists.  Share the pain!  After all, why should your antagonists be the ones to only have good days?  

While you're throwing down road blocks, you're also thinking about ways your characters are going to get over/around/through them.  Maybe they don't get over at first (this is called a try/fail cycle) because winning on the first try is boring, but they have to get through eventually to proceed through the story.  Why?  Because in a few pages you're going to throw down a BIGGER roadblock!  MWA HA HA!  Isn't this fun?  Remember, you're doing this to both sides.  Rinse and repeat until your characters either collapse in exhaustion or somebody wins - usually your protagonist, but who knows?


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## It's a Squirrel...Moose? (Jul 21, 2013)

Maybe I was unclear in what I meant (the woes of writing whilst tired) - my point was that many people obsess about the plot in short fiction and as a result write a piece that has _too much_ plot. I am not suggesting that people go all Virginia Woolf and write epics about nothing at all happening.

What I meant was that plot should go hand in hand with character development - and that a plot should be carefully tailored to the size of the piece. Pieces under 4000 words suffer from a chronic lack of space - and whilst the common advice is 'plot is everything!!' I find that people tend to go too far and try and stuff a novel's worth of plot into a piece and end up either writing a novella or rushing through key action scenes.

My advice is to always focus on the character - really zone into him/her - their motivations, desires and situations. Often, when you've worked out this part - the plot comes naturally.


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## BWFoster78 (Jul 21, 2013)

It's a Squirrel...Moose? said:


> Maybe I was unclear in what I meant (the woes of writing whilst tired) - my point was that many people obsess about the plot in short fiction and as a result write a piece that has _too much_ plot. I am not suggesting that people go all Virginia Woolf and write epics about nothing at all happening.
> 
> What I meant was that plot should go hand in hand with character development - and that a plot should be carefully tailored to the size of the piece. Pieces under 4000 words suffer from a chronic lack of space - and whilst the common advice is 'plot is everything!!' I find that people tend to go too far and try and stuff a novel's worth of plot into a piece and end up either writing a novella or rushing through key action scenes.
> 
> My advice is to always focus on the character - really zone into him/her - their motivations, desires and situations. Often, when you've worked out this part - the plot comes naturally.



While I would never tell anyone that it is a bad idea to focus on character, your advice for short fiction runs contrary to what I've read from multiple other sources.  My understanding is that, with a novel, plot becomes less important since you have the time you need for full character arcs.  With short fiction, while you still need good characters, that central Idea or neat plot twist becomes more important.


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## Weaver (Jul 21, 2013)

It's a Squirrel...Moose? said:


> Maybe I was unclear in what I meant (the woes of writing whilst tired) - my point was that many people obsess about the plot in short fiction and as a result write a piece that has _too much_ plot. I am not suggesting that people go all Virginia Woolf and write epics about nothing at all happening.
> 
> What I meant was that plot should go hand in hand with character development - and that a plot should be carefully tailored to the size of the piece. Pieces under 4000 words suffer from a chronic lack of space - and whilst the common advice is 'plot is everything!!' I find that people tend to go too far and try and stuff a novel's worth of plot into a piece and end up either writing a novella or rushing through key action scenes.
> 
> My advice is to always focus on the character - really zone into him/her - their motivations, desires and situations. Often, when you've worked out this part - the plot comes naturally.



THAT makes sense.  I've seen it happen with longer works, too:  novels that have _too much stuff _in them, too many different things going on and none of those things really developed.

I'm pleased that someone else thinks anything under 4000 words has "a chronic lack of space" -- especially in fantasy (and science fiction), where we have to introduce a world while we're at it.


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