# Be Honest:  Why are you Really Not Published Yet?



## Philip Overby

I think this has to be a question most beginning writers sit down and ask themselves at some point:  Why am I not published yet?

Have you tried?  Have you been madly submitting with no results?  Have you just decided it's not worth pursuing with so many self-publishing avenues available?

I'll add what I've been reading a lot recently that may seem like a "duh" answer:  I don't finish anything.

With the exception of one novella and a handful of short stories, I've never actually really finished anything I write.  I'll venture to say this is probably most everyone's problem here.  We all know the publishing industry is selective and sometimes it takes years to get picked up.  Some people probably never make it to a publisher of any kind.  I can't see how that's possible if you have at least some talent, a unique vision, and a lot (I mean a lot) of time at the keyboard/pen and pad.  

Is getting published really a Sisyphean climb?  Or is the world too clouded with distractions to get something done?  That's my problem.  That's why I don't necessarily claim to be a novel writer since I haven't ever finished a novel.  

I don't get writer's block.  I just quit.  

Do any of you have this problem?  Do you want to do something about it?

Here's your chance.

Let's make a blood pact (digitally).  Who wants to take up this challenge?  Which of us will get published first by 2014?  

I don't want to be a failed writer anymore.  I don't want anymore aborted novels.  I don't want to keep going on to a "shinier idea."  I want to finish something.  So at least then I'll have a chance.  

So here in this thread.  Make this oath:

1.  I will finish something.

2.  I will get it published by 2014.

3.  Even if this isn't realistic, I will still try.

4.  I'm tired of failing.

5.  I will submit it to (insert publishing house here) and if they don't want it then I'll try (insert publishing house here) and then if that doesn't work (insert publishing house here).  Then if those three don't want my novel, then, and only then, I'll start writing something else.

I hope this at least motivates someone else.

Let's tell our stories come hell or high water.


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## Kelise

1. I will finish something.

2. I will have it ready to send out by London WorldCon 2014.

3. Even if this isn't realistic, I will still try.

4. I'm tired of failing.

5. I will submit it to *Gollancz London* and if they don't want it then I'll try *Harper Voyager Australia* and then if that doesn't work *Orbit*, perhaps. Then if those three don't want my novel, then, and only then, I'll start writing something else.


---

I changed mine slightly as I plan to have something ready to take along to WorldCon 2014 in London, as conventions are generally much more relaxed and I'm hoping, if I have something I honestly believe is ready, to convince someone to read the first page. 

My problem until recently is I've been writing without much of a plan, without much of a world... just with a vague idea. I'm currently in a critique group of about 30 who are working alongside Brandon Sanderson lectures and I'm taking everything to heart. I've put aside my massive seven book series and I'm focusing on one book, with two POVs, in one (or two) countries with one shared goal.

I'm in with you, Phil. Let's get our novels finished! 

(Until now I've only tried submitting two short stories, to the same person at the same small press for anthologies. I'm far too shy for anything else as of yet. As for how many books I've finished writing... I have no idea, which isn't a good sign. I've finished NaNo and Script Frenzy since 2004 and 2007, though I'm not sure which of those were finished works.)


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## gavintonks

I have finished but I am still working as I want to be 110% that its my best


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## JCFarnham

Don't have anything finished. Not going to rush and force it. 

That's my problem. Well, I say problem, but I think its a valid "thing". There's nothing worse than forcing yourself to finish something when you know you don't have the inspiration or drive to make it something truly wonderful. 

I think I probably will have something done by 2014. I mean, hell, that's like most of two years. Easy. Already got a first draft under my belt (admittedly that novel is being largely rewritten, so that draft doesn't count...)

I don't know who I'd submit to, I'd rather finish _something_ first.

So there's my pledge


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## Philip Overby

I think my attitude for a long time was not to rush anything.  Well, not even that.  Just to take my time.  That's why I haven't finished anything.  And by finished, I mean even a first draft.  So having a sort of long-term goal doesn't hurt anyone.  But not having any goal definitely hasn't worked for me.   It just makes me keep delaying to actually try to do anything.  

Not to say what I'm offering is a "rush job."  It's just a call to arms to quit making excuses for those of us who haven't put our good foot forward yet.  And I haven't.  I can't say in the 10 something years I've been writing aborted novels that I've ever really, really tried to get something out there.  

That's my inherent problem.  "I'll do it later."


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## Anders Ã„mting

Writer's block. I have had a terrible tendency to run into a wall or get distracted once I reach the second chapter or so, and in recent years I haven't been actually writing much at all. It's sad but true.


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## SeverinR

Truthfully, my editing is not completed.
I finished writing three books, and have edited them alot. 
I will make my first submission to a contest end of next month. (SS)

I won't submit my books until I know they are the best that I can do.
I wish I could focus on one, but like when I wrote them, I got tired of the one story, so I switched to another.
I think this will be the last edit for two of the three. (I have focuses on two, rather then all three)

I wish I could find a writer's group for crit. There is one in Dayton, but is not genre specific and twenty minutes from work, which is 45 minutes from home.(1hour 5 minutes to drive home)


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## zizban

For me, writing is my hobby. Publishing something that is secondary to me. That said, sometime this year I'll be published.


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## gavintonks

you can submit to critters if you wish to have your work read and critiqued, I have learnt a huge amount from the feedback saved me a lot of school fees


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## Ireth

I'm in the process of finding agents for my first finished novel, but I'll still definitely take the pledge.

1. I will finish something.

2. I will get it published by 2014.

3. Even if this isn't realistic, I will still try.

4. I'm tired of failing.

5. I will submit it to *Ethan Ellenberg Literary Agency*, and if they don't want it then I'll try *Nancy Yost* and then if that doesn't work *FinePrint Literary Management*. Then if those three don't want my novel, then, and only then, I'll start writing something else.


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## Aravelle

Well, every other idea I had before the two I have now sucked. They sucked badly. Now, I don't have any of either story written, but that's because I've been doing concept work and stretching it out. I confess, I am afraid to write, and afraid to go further... So I will make the pact.

1. I will finish something.

2. I will get it published by 2014.

3. Even if this isn't realistic, I will still try.

4. I'm tired of failing, of having an excuse as to why I don't have writing to show to people who want to see.

5. I will submit it to Penguin and if they don't want it then I'll try Simon and Schuster, and then if that doesn't work Greenwillow. Then if those three don't want my novel, then, and only then, I'll start writing something else.

[Ohmygawd I'm scared. X.x]


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## Caged Maiden

1) I will finish something with my new perspective and rapidly increasing skills in editing.

2) I will be published by 2014.

3) Even if it isn't realistic, I will try, and along my journey, I will offer my help to others and encourage them along their paths as well (especially Phil who really needs to finish one of his very promising books).

4) I'm tired of spending all my time treading water and feeling like a failure.

5) I will submit to Ethan Ellenburg Literary Agency (who rejected my first attempt to submit several months ago), and if they don't want it, I will submit to Nelson Literary Agency, and if they don't want it, I will try Spectrum Literary Agency.  If those three don't want my manuscript, then I WILL TRY MORE!


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## Sheilawisz

I set my deadline when I start writing a Fantasy novel, and I work with passion and discipline to keep writing: I have three novels finished in my first series (planning to expand it to seven) I finished my second Fantasy series of five short novels in April 16th 2012 after five years of work and I have finished two of my Joan of England novels and half of the third, aiming to finish this trilogy before 2012 comes to an end =)

1- I am not sure whether I want to have my stories published or not, maybe it's not so wonderful to be published after all.

2- Most of my stories are so strange and crazy that they are not what publishers can sell in an effective way.

3- My Joan of England story is more likely to get published, but first I want to finish the trilogy and then re-read it like twenty times till I am sure that it's exactly what I want it to be.

So, that's why I am not published yet =)


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## Talespinner

For me it's been a mixture of writer's block and being lazy that's stopped me from finishing anything. I'm sick of it so I'm with you on this. 

1. I will finish something.

2. I will get it published by 2014.

3. Even if this isn't realistic, I will still try.

4. I'm tired of failing.

5. I will submit it to Pyr and if they don't want it then I'll try Orbit and then if that doesn't work Firebird. Then if those three don't want my novel, then, and only then, I'll start writing something else.


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## Penpilot

I've submitted short stories, but they were rejected. Haven't submitted a short story in a bit.

I'm editing my second novel. I believe if I get my edit's right, it'll be good enough to be picked up. Crossing fingers, in a couple of months it's going out. But before now. I can honestly say I wasn't good enough. With all humbleness, I think I am now. I've been studying and working very hard on my craft. I no longer have trouble finishing. It's all about making stuff good now. So lets see if I'm up to snuff, or is it back to working hard and studying.


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## Ireth

As of this morning, a query for _Winter's Queen_ is on its way to Ethan Ellenberg Literary Agency. I should hear back from them sometime in June. Wish me luck!


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## ThinkerX

In a warped way, this pledge thing something like what brought me to this site.  I've done a lot of writing down through the decades.  Very rarely finished anything.  Probably hundreds of fragments of stories and novels, with the fragments ranging from a few pages scattered throughout the course of the work, to as much as half the whole.  A few times I did hit writers block, of sorts.  A couple other times, I realized I didn't know enough about my own fictional setting to properly tell the story.  And other times, I did just stop.  And...a few times I did finish stories.  A few offbeat stories that appeared in a forum dedicated to religious debate of all things (trying to make theological points) to fairly good reviews.  A novella or two...(though in dire need of a rewrite).

So...a few months before showing up here (after having my computer wiped and reloaded), I hunted through my piles of past material, and picked the stories that I figured I had the best shot of finishing and might actually be interesting. Since then...I've started two new works.  One is not exactly finished, but does come to an ending of sorts, and still needs a bunch of editing.  The other I've only made a wee bit of headway on, I undertook it as a sort of favor to a friend (he had a idea, and I told him I'd see what I could do with it - unfortunately, half of his idea was plagerized from a well known author, so....)

Anyhow, because it accords with my purpose in coming here:

1) I will finish something.

2) I will get it published by 2014.

3) Even if this is not realistic, I will still try.

4) I'm tired of failing.

5) I will submit it...somewhere.


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## Ghost

I also have a problem with finishing things, and a fear of failure plays a big part of it. I decided in March that I was tired of failing. To push myself, I decided to write 52 first drafts for short stories. That's one story for every week of the year. Yeah, I started late, but I still think it's doable. I begin things but never reach the end of the story, so the reason I'm focusing on first drafts is just to reach the ending. I can always edit and revise later, but recapturing the momentum from when I first started the story is my downfall.

Short stories are easier for me to wrap my head around. That problem of abandoning current ideas for the new shinies? Well, it's easier to stick with it if you know you only need a few thousand words rather than a 80,000 word behemoth. I've finished shorts before, so it adds to the feeling of "I can do this!"

You can see by my signature I've only got 8 stories so far. I plan to use Camp NaNoWriMo and NaNoWriMo to catch up. :biggrin:

My oath will be slightly different. I need to get into the habit of writing because I'm tired of saying "I want to be a writer" instead of "I _am_ a writer." I want to prove to myself that I can be published and what I'm doing is worthwhile because there are people out there who will read my stories.

1. I will publish a story by the end of 2012.
2. This is a realistic goal, and there is no reason not to try.
3. I'm tired of failing myself, so giving up or waiting it out is no longer an option.


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## Philip Overby

Wow, I'm glad so many people have commented on this.  I was starting to think I'm the only one who is tired of not finishing anything.  It's not so much about getting published I guess, but about having the guts to finish something to submit it.  And getting published should be every writers ultimate goal one way or another (if it's your hobby then just enjoy what you're doing).  

I'll say this.  Everyone who has committed to this blood pact, please, just make the effort.  It seems strange to say this, but I think if I see a big group of other people committing to something, it inspires me more.  And I think that's one of the ultimate goals of Mythic Scribes is to inspire and motivate writers.  

So Ireth, congrats on sending something out!  Here's hoping it works out for you!

I want this blood pact to be something where we can share our successes and failures and further motivate each other.   I'm not a motivational speaker and not someone who normally says stuff like this.  I think it's just time to do something.  To really make the effort.  You know?


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## Kelise

I think it would be nifty if we could have a place to report on our progress, to cheer each other on, and encourage each other when it just doesn't seem to be working. 

I wonder if we could have a place on Mythic Scribes, or if we would like to create a group especially for it, or something similar. Or if we just wanted to then use this thread?


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## BWFoster78

I'm in, sorta.

1. I will finish my novel.

That's all I can promise, though.  I'm not sure I want to even submit it to publishers.  Even if it is good enough, I still think it takes a lot of luck to even get it read, and, if they read it and love it, they still may not have space to publish it.  Let's say they do publish it.  I'm probably looking at a $5000 advance.  I don't think it's worth the effort.  I may go straight to self publishing.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Ouroboros, so THAT'S what you're x/52 is all about.

I thought you had 52 enemies and were gradually hunting them down and dropkicking them into oblivion.


When I lived in Hong Kong, I had an idea for a story. I had no idea what I was getting myself into, but I gave myself a year to write it. In addition, I promised to have people I know beta-read at certain milestones. (I hadn't looked into writers' forums at the time.) But most importantly, to me, was that I promised myself I would ENJOY every scene.

I felt like that was important... that the journey had to be more important than the destination, or I'd never get there. I finished it in a year and five days (not too shabby only being five days late, considering my first child was born and I moved back to the U.S. that year!), but the story's too damn long (155,000+ words) and full of newbie-ness. So I'm only claiming to be successful at finishing something. Nothing more.

(Oh... and there was that one guy at the New York Comic Con who was carrying around my book. Yay me?)

So far, that and a children's book are the only things I've submitted (and received rejection letters for).


Now I'm starting to have the shiny, new project syndrome which I didn't have before... so, I'll start with this for now:

*I'll figure out which shiny, new project to stick to and start writing while school's out.*


Admittedly, that's more of a fingernail-clipping-pact. But I'd like to see how that goes before making a virtual-blood-pact.

I take pacts seriously, gosh darnit! (Ugh... why did I ever make a pact to stop swearing on Tuesday evenings?)


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## ThinkerX

> (Ugh... why did I ever make a pact to stop swearing on Tuesday evenings?)



Because the wife threatened to take a meat cleaver to certain parts of your anatomy?

Sorry, but you walked right into that one.


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## Legendary Sidekick

No, no... she made that threat because I got her pregnant again. She made that threat on a Tuesday evening, so my natural reaction was to say, "Holy ****, that would ****ing hurt!" I quickly made the no-swearing-on-Tuesday-evenings pact to get her to put the meat cleaver away.


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## Philip Overby

starconstant said:


> I think it would be nifty if we could have a place to report on our progress, to cheer each other on, and encourage each other when it just doesn't seem to be working.
> 
> I wonder if we could have a place on Mythic Scribes, or if we would like to create a group especially for it, or something similar. Or if we just wanted to then use this thread?




I think for now just using this thread would be good.  I may decide to make a separate thread later on (as I'm not sure how often people visit the group pages.)  I would encourage others to possibly seek out critique partners if they wish, or just encourage each other in general when we feel like giving up.

For instance, "Having a lot of trouble with a chapter today.  Help!"

We could offer words of encouragement, suggestions, whatever is wanted.  I don't want to peg this down to certain kind of "thing."  It can just be whatever it is to whoever wants to be part of it.

I'm currently critiquing some other work (which I'm dreadfully behind on, sorry!) but I do plan to get one of my novels finished and polished up so that it might possibly get submitted in the near future, certainly by 2014.  I may even use this Camp NaNo session to beef it up to 100,000 words, although that may be too long?


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## Ghost

Legendary Sidekick said:


> I thought you had 52 enemies and were gradually hunting them down and dropkicking them into oblivion.



Well...ahem...I _do_ have to avenge my family. Villains burned down my village, killed my father, kidnapped my sister, etc etc. It was a stereotypical Fantasyland upbringing. Would it be cheating if I made my 52 stories about the 52 enemies I'll slay? And do I have to make them sign release forms before I kill them, in case I get published?



Phil the Drill said:


> I may even use this Camp NaNo session to beef it up to 100,000 words, although that may be too long?



It does sound like an awful lot, but I think it's fine to use Camp NaNo to boost your productivity. Something about the energy and encouragement of NaNo months really helps.


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## Ireth

Would it be breaking the pact if I kept working on the sequel to the novel I just queried an agent about while I wait for a response? I really want to be making more progress with that one.


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## Kelise

Word count depends on what you're genre/sub-genre you're writing, though I found this list of word counts pretty interesting: Word Counts of Epic Fantasy Novels


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## Caged Maiden

I say go for it, Phil.  Let's make our own Nano challenge.

Phil looks down at his feet, his eyes scrutinizing the small bit of cloth.  "Is that... a baby sock?"

Ani shrugs.  "I didn't have a gauntlet on me."


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## Jon_Chong

Count me in and may the world tremble at our feet.

1. I will finish something.

2. I will get it published by 2014.

3. Even if this isn't realistic, I will still try.

4. I'm tired of failing.

5. Changing this one as I plan on submitting my manuscript to uh... a lot of people. And while doing so, I plan on writing something new.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Ireth said:


> Would it be breaking the pact if I kept working on the sequel to the novel I just queried an agent about while I wait for a response? I really want to be making more progress with that one.


That's exactly what you SHOULD be doing!

Keep it up, Ireth!


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## Philip Overby

Yes!  Once you send it out, forget about it and start working on something else.

Ireth is now officially our Blood Pact Model Member.


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## Telcontar

As to word counts, there is some interesting information given in the presentation here: Smashwords: Can Ebook Data Reveal New Viral Catalysts to Spur Reader Word-of-Mouth?.

As to publishing, I'm a bit outside the boundaries of the current question, due to the fact that I have decided to self-publish. Thus, I _am_ published, though likely not quite in the manner that this thread concerns itself with.

However, I would like to point out that much of the 'problem' presented here is not about being published, but about finishing work. This is, indeed, one of the greatest problems of would-be authors: they never finish "their novel." They edit forever. They start new projects, etc etc.

Whether you intend to pursue traditional publishing or indie publishing, that problem is the _real_ one. You _must_ finish the story, and get it to a state that you would be willing - preferably _proud_ - to hold up to the world and scream "This is mine!" 

To the eternal editors, I beg you remember the words of some anonymous artist (attributed to too many people to count): 

"A work of art is never finished, only abandoned."

This is doubly true for novels, methinks. Write it. Edit it. Start the next one. Don't let those stories build up inside your head - get them out and into the world.

In the spirit of camaraderie, I too will take this pledge. I've finished one novel already, but now I intend to get serious about this whole 'writing' gig. I pledge to finish my _second_ novel before the end of the year. 

I have held my work up before the world and I intend to continue doing so.


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## Benjamin Clayborne

I'm not published (by any "real" publisher, let's say) yet, because I've only been doing this about 10 months. I'm about to finish my first novel, which took longer than I thought it would.

In fact, what the hell am I doing here? I should be writing!


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## Ireth

Legendary Sidekick said:


> That's exactly what you SHOULD be doing!
> 
> Keep it up, Ireth!



Okie-dokie. The wording of the pledge was a little misleading, so I thought I'd ask.



Phil the Drill said:


> Yes!  Once you send it out, forget about it and start working on something else.
> 
> Ireth is now officially our Blood Pact Model Member.



D'aww. *blushes, feeling honored* Thank you.


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## Elder the Dwarf

Phil, I have a very similar problem.  That being said, I started writing pretty recently, so that can be at least a small excuse.  I want to do this, but I'll have to alter my pledge al bit.

1. I will finish something.  (Hopefully a full novel, though I'd be glad if I ever got the hang of short story writing.)

2.  I will submit a piece to be published by 2015. (I'm going to college soon, so I'll be really busy.  Plus, in 2015 I'll only be 21, so it seems pretty reasonable to me.)

3.  Even if this is not realistic I will still try.

4.  I'm really tired of being lazy and struggling to write.

5.  I will submit it somewhere.  No idea where that might be.

I'm working on three different stories right now, and I won't promise to completely put two down right now, so I'll have to leave out the not working on anything else part for now.

Thanks for the motivation, Phil!


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## KellyB

Well, I would just like to get a book written, let alone sending it to publishers.

I have had about 3 or 4 false starts over the last year or so.  So, in December, I gave myself a goal of getting a first draft completely written by the end of this year.  I don't know at this point in the year if I will reach that goal, as I haven't actually started writing it yet.  But I think I finally have an idea I can work with, and I have started planning.  So, I'm going to try my hardest to get something written this year.

As someone else in the thread said, I would like to stop saying "I want to be a writer" and say "I am a writer."


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## kennyc

Ireth said:


> As of this morning, a query for _Winter's Queen_ is on its way to Ethan Ellenberg Literary Agency. I should hear back from them sometime in June. Wish me luck!



Good Luck!


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## kennyc

I'm having a "finishing" problem at the moment myself and I am working to get it under control. As you may or may not know I recently left my captive corporate computer job and am writing full time with the intent of making a living at this (at least enough to put food in the cat bowl) by next year. I'm pursuing a number of avenues to do that including self-publishing on Amazon. I will also be working to get my poetry, fiction, essays and articles published in the traditional media. My work ranges from mainstream to fantasy, poetry to novels, but my love is short stories and that is where I'm focusing my main attention at the moment. 

Many ideas and partially finished stories in both mainstream and SFF which I'm working on. I've been very non-productive the last few days so this is a great thread to re-commit myself. 

Now, my issue with the pledge. I really don't think one can "pledge" to get something published, that is completely out of your control. The best a writer can do is to continue to submit and keep writing and yes FINISH the pieces you are working on.

My current goal -- which as I said fell apart a bit this week is to complete one store each week. Maybe that is unrealistic (#3) but I don't think so. 

also (#4) failing is such a negative thing, I would say in the vein of #1 it should be I will continue to write, to finish, to market my work, if I am doing that I am not failing. 

So in that vein I will pledge to

#1 Finish something (story article poem essay) each week

#2 I will submit finished works to publishers or self-publish as appropriate

#3 I will continue to create new ideas and stories, to write, finish, and submit my work

#4 I will not fail if I do 1-3 and I will continue this process each day, each week, each month


Thank you Phil for starting this thread!

(p.s. my unstated goal is to produce about 2500 words (draft) a day which is pretty high and I've yet to actually hit it since starting this journey two months ago. I've has a couple of 1000 word days so I'm getting there or will revise the plan)


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## SeverinR

1.  I will finish something.

2.  I will get it published by 2014.

3.  Even if this isn't realistic, I will still try.

4.  I'm tired of failing.

5.  I will submit it to (insert publishing house here) and if they don't want it then I'll try (insert publishing house here) and then if that doesn't work (insert publishing house here).  Then if those three don't want my novel, then, and only then, I'll start writing something else.
-------
* I have not looked into publishers yet, so I will have to find one to commit too,  then an alternate. I guess I should also decide which route- Publisher vs agent. (Isn't the stats: 90% of books published are through an agent?)

I am leaning towards agent, huge publishing house versus individual agent. Which seems moe likely to help the fledgling writer?

*Critters? Will have to look into that.


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## Kit

As soon as I can find the beginning of my WIP, I will start posting the story online. It's emerging all out of order. I already have a Blogspot site set up and ready for it, though.

I have little interest in being traditionally published- nor in finishing, for that matter. I'd like to just keep writing as long as the story stays absorbing. Writing is mostly a masturbatory (is that a word?) activity in my viewpoint as opposed to a revenue-generating or product-producing venture.


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## The Dark One

I was published in 2010 and again this year, so I guess I'm not a pledge, but you might be interested in my tale nevertheless.

It took me about 18 years to get published. Actually, I'll amend that down to 13, because I didn't start trying until I'd finished my first novel which took 5 years to write. When I finished that first book I thought I'd created a masterpiece...and yet, if I open it up now I can't read two sentences without vomiting blood.

It takes a long time to become a good writer, or at least it took me a long time. You need to relax into your natural voice and discover a way of crafting stories that suits you. But on top of that you need to be able to tell a story that people actually want to read. Anyone can learn to write, but there aren't that many natural storytellers (in my opinion).

At the beginning of this thread, someone seemed to think that once they got their story done it would be just a matter of getting it read. This is far easier said than done. In Australia (where I am) there are about 100,000 unsolicited manuscripts floating around the various slush piles at any one time. Less than one in a thousand of these actually gets published and bugger all of them make any money. I've no idea what the numbers are in the US or the UK, but substantially worse I'd imagine.

You can't just write a good book and expect to get it published (unless your dad owns a publishing company). You've got to be spectacularly good, or spectacularly different, or spectacularly lucky.

The thing that kept me going was that I never stopped believing that I was good and deserved to be published. Maybe some people would have given up after so many rejections over the years, but if you keep writing long enough to find your natural voice then you will dramatically improve your chances of being published in the mainstream.

Treat it as a hobby. Don't start out believing you will quickly find fame or fortune.

That way madness lies.


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## Jess A

...because I've never finished a novel.

I have had journalism stuff published, but no novels yet. I will get there! I will keep writing.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Thanks for the reality check, Dark One. In addition, I don't think Bob "R.A." Salvatore would mind me telling you this. His son got published. His nephew did not, even with that connection! (And, yes, Uncle Bob did give his stamp of approval before his nephew submitted queries and such.)

His advice to me was submit my finished story and write the next one.

I'm still trying to figure out what pledge I'm going to commit to...


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## Philip Overby

The Dark One said:


> I was published in 2010 and again this year, so I guess I'm not a pledge, but you might be interested in my tale nevertheless.
> 
> It took me about 18 years to get published. Actually, I'll amend that down to 13, because I didn't start trying until I'd finished my first novel which took 5 years to write. When I finished that first book I thought I'd created a masterpiece...and yet, if I open it up now I can't read two sentences without vomiting blood.
> 
> It takes a long time to become a good writer, or at least it took me a long time. You need to relax into your natural voice and discover a way of crafting stories that suits you. But on top of that you need to be able to tell a story that people actually want to read. Anyone can learn to write, but there aren't that many natural storytellers (in my opinion).
> 
> At the beginning of this thread, someone seemed to think that once they got their story done it would be just a matter of getting it read. This is far easier said than done. In Australia (where I am) there are about 100,000 unsolicited manuscripts floating around the various slush piles at any one time. Less than one in a thousand of these actually gets published and bugger all of them make any money. I've no idea what the numbers are in the US or the UK, but substantially worse I'd imagine.
> 
> You can't just write a good book and expect to get it published (unless your dad owns a publishing company). You've got to be spectacularly good, or spectacularly different, or spectacularly lucky.
> 
> The thing that kept me going was that I never stopped believing that I was good and deserved to be published. Maybe some people would have given up after so many rejections over the years, but if you keep writing long enough to find your natural voice then you will dramatically improve your chances of being published in the mainstream.
> 
> Treat it as a hobby. Don't start out believing you will quickly find fame or fortune.
> 
> That way madness lies.



Thanks for the insight.  

There's a part in the pledge that reads "even if this isn't realistic."  I put that in there for a reason.  Because realistically, sure, most of us may not get published by 2014.  Maybe none of us will.  But for anything to succeed you have to have faith in yourself and at least give it a try.  

Time and time again on this site I'm reading about people not finishing.  That is the main goal that needs to be accomplished so that we can at least finally submit.

The failure isn't really not getting published.  It's not making the leap to _even try_ to get published.  The pledge, to me anyway, is less about failure and more about fear.

For those of you who are hobbyists or don't really want to do this pledge because it's not realistic, then that's fine.  Do your own thing.  But for those of us who need the motivation (like I do) I'm glad this has sparked some interest.  I think self-publishing is a viable option for most these days.  But I think a lot of us want to go to the traditional route, even if it's a path riddled with rejection.  

But almost no writer has ever been published their first time out.  Each rejection will make you stronger.  And with that, maybe, just maybe, you'll be published by 2014.

And then you can share you success with us here.


----------



## Kelise

Well said, Phil. 

Realistic or not, whatever gets us to a finished MS is a step ahead for most people.


----------



## Penpilot

I remember a certain I Should Be Writing podcaster saying something to the effect her persistence will outlast many authors more talented than her, and that's why she believes she'll succeed.


----------



## Leif GS Notae

Because the novel as we know it is dying and the readers are getting older with little or no replenishing for customers. 

Much like looking at writing as a hobby, you must look at the publishing arm as a business built on a hobby industry these days. You should also look at the self published venture as the "minor leagues", the new way for publishing houses to verify you have an audience and can sell your NEXT greatest book through them.

Book stores are dying. Amazon/B&N/Apple might have a large library of books, but it's their right to remove it from your device if they so choose. There are so many reasons NOT to get published, it'd make your head spin.

That is, if you are looking at this realistically.


----------



## Philip Overby

Leif GS Notae said:


> Because the novel as we know it is dying and the readers are getting older with little or no replenishing for customers.
> 
> Much like looking at writing as a hobby, you must look at the publishing arm as a business built on a hobby industry these days. You should also look at the self published venture as the "minor leagues", the new way for publishing houses to verify you have an audience and can sell your NEXT greatest book through them.
> 
> Book stores are dying. Amazon/B&N/Apple might have a large library of books, but it's their right to remove it from your device if they so choose. There are so many reasons NOT to get published, it'd make your head spin.
> 
> That is, if you are looking at this realistically.



How many threads are there already that talk about the doom and gloom of the publishing industry?  This thread is not one.

We're not looking at it realistically.  If you go back to my original statement it says "even if this isn't realistic."  Let people dream.  Let people get motivated.  

This isn't about becoming a superstar or giving people some kind of lofty ambition to live up to.  It's about finishing.  Finishing.  From what I understand most of the people haven't finished anything in this thread because of fear.  Fear of the publishing industry collapsing.  Fear of rejection.  Fear of doing anything.

I hope people can at least take from this thread that fear makes you become nothing.  

Everyone can argue their philosophies about "it's better to finish something even if it sucks" vs. "why bother finishing something if it sucks."  Let those of us that want to finish at least have a goal set.  

However, if some of you are fearful for whatever reason (my writing sucks, people hate me, no one buys books), then don't do the pledge.  But those of us that do, I swear you will become better for it in some way if you go through with it.


----------



## Feo Takahari

I'm not sure precisely why I'm not published yet. My stories are regularly rejected, so it can be assumed that my writing in some way fails to meet publishers' expectations, but since I usually get form letters, I don't know exactly how it fails. 

(Interestingly, though I always get form rejections from science fiction and fantasy publishers, I got a tentative acceptance from the very first romance publisher I ever sent to. I'm currently waiting for it to become a definite acceptance.)


----------



## The Dark One

I had an article published recently in the NSW Writers Centre Magazine called The Importance of Being Rejected: The Destiny Police and the Digital Future. In a nutshell, my concern is that rejection is what hones the raw writer into the finished product. Without rejection, there is no incentive to improve, and if everyone starts self-publishing unrefined drafts, they'll never learn from their mistakes and evolve into the writers they might have become.

I'm not saying I'm a great writer, but I do know I'm infinitely better than I was 13 years ago. Over a hundred rejections later I have had two books published and people take me seriously now. 

Everyone is crap when they start. You just have to keep writing long enough to become good.


----------



## Jess A

Leif GS Notae said:


> Because the novel as we know it is dying and the readers are getting older with little or no replenishing for customers.
> 
> Much like looking at writing as a hobby, you must look at the publishing arm as a business built on a hobby industry these days. You should also look at the self published venture as the "minor leagues", the new way for publishing houses to verify you have an audience and can sell your NEXT greatest book through them.
> 
> *Book stores are dying. Amazon/B&N/Apple might have a large library of books, but it's their right to remove it from your device if they so choose. There are so many reasons NOT to get published, it'd make your head spin.*
> 
> That is, if you are looking at this realistically.



I believe second-hand bookstores still have a purpose. Recycle, re-use, and face-to-face customer service and recommendations.

I do not believe Rupert Murdoch when he says newspapers will ultimately die (I think it was Murdoch who said that). I do not believe anybody who comes to me and brags about their new kindle and how it will take over real, solid books. Books have been around for a very long time. Books will prevail. Technology is a fleeting, evolving thing. 

That said, perhaps I am an optimist...or perhaps I refuse to let go of my solid newspaper and my books.

I will certainly look at self-publishing and even as an e-book if need be. I don't care to make money or riches. I just want to share my story with some people, even if it's just a few people. I want to make it the very best that I can and I will try until I get what I bloody well want. If that means a thousand rejections, then so be it - at least I will have learned where to improve.


----------



## Leif GS Notae

Phil the Drill said:


> How many threads are there already that talk about the doom and gloom of the publishing industry?  This thread is not one.
> 
> We're not looking at it realistically.  If you go back to my original statement it says "even if this isn't realistic."  Let people dream.  Let people get motivated.
> 
> This isn't about becoming a superstar or giving people some kind of lofty ambition to live up to.  It's about finishing.  Finishing.  From what I understand most of the people haven't finished anything in this thread because of fear.  Fear of the publishing industry collapsing.  Fear of rejection.  Fear of doing anything.
> 
> I hope people can at least take from this thread that fear makes you become nothing.
> 
> Everyone can argue their philosophies about "it's better to finish something even if it sucks" vs. "why bother finishing something if it sucks."  Let those of us that want to finish at least have a goal set.
> 
> However, if some of you are fearful for whatever reason (my writing sucks, people hate me, no one buys books), then don't do the pledge.  But those of us that do, I swear you will become better for it in some way if you go through with it.



Ah, but you are ignoring the one thing that almost everything thinks when they devote so much time to a 100K word WIP: There has to be payoff. We don't work 8 hours a day to feel accomplished, we get paid for it. Some dedicate their lives to writing, but they always expect it will take them to the next level (whatever that next level is).

While your words are pretty, and your meaning is well; we often ignore human reasoning and rationalization when we wonder why we can't finish or why we aren't published yet. If you were knew you were going to be a success, you would finish the project you are working on and move onto the next.

When you boil it all down, it is usually fear that gives you any excuse. 

And while I appreciate you using the fear monger card, you have to look at this world and its measures. If one person is afraid of their work not amounting to anything, then my words might resonate with them and get them to either commit more or walk away to apply that skill to something else. Just because you can't get a novel finished doesn't mean you can't turn over a profit through other means (freelancing, article writing, information products, etc).


----------



## Leif GS Notae

Little Storm Cloud said:


> I believe second-hand bookstores still have a purpose. Recycle, re-use, and face-to-face customer service and recommendations.
> 
> I do not believe Rupert Murdoch when he says newspapers will ultimately die (I think it was Murdoch who said that). I do not believe anybody who comes to me and brags about their new kindle and how it will take over real, solid books. Books have been around for a very long time. Books will prevail. Technology is a fleeting, evolving thing.
> 
> That said, perhaps I am an optimist...or perhaps I refuse to let go of my solid newspaper and my books.
> 
> I will certainly look at self-publishing and even as an e-book if need be. I don't care to make money or riches. I just want to share my story with some people, even if it's just a few people. I want to make it the very best that I can and I will try until I get what I bloody well want. If that means a thousand rejections, then so be it - at least I will have learned where to improve.



The way the used medium is going, on top of everyone wanting to take up less footprint with physical products, it will be a less viable means to keep the hobby afloat. If you take a look at how software is handling this, you'll understand that companies are going after whatever is losing them money, even if it is something they haven't touched in ten to twenty years.

Do you really think the publishing house is going to enjoy seeing ten copies of Harry Potter used on a shelf that they can't make money from? They'd rather have whomever is going to buy these books through them (digital or otherwise). 

This thread, these concerns, they all relate to one thing: The Bottom Line. Payoff, feeling accomplished, getting noticed. You aren't going to throw away your life to not get some recognition for what you do. Fear is a powerful energy, but if you can harness it and push past it to write whatever it is you want to write (whether or not it is your current project or a new one), you can do some amazing things.


----------



## Philip Overby

Let's agree to disagree then.  These glass half-full, glass half-empty conversations go in circles.


----------



## shangrila

I haven't finished writing my book.


----------



## Leif GS Notae

Phil the Drill said:


> Let's agree to disagree then.  These glass half-full, glass half-empty conversations go in circles.



*shrugs* Doesn't affect me. I'm about being honest with people and letting them know that they don't have to feel bad by not finishing their projects. It is a brutal world out there and there's tons of work to push your product and get noticed. And no, I have never gotten a book published, so you can take my words with a grain of salt.


----------



## Jess A

Leif GS Notae said:


> *shrugs* Doesn't affect me. I'm about being honest with people and letting them know that they don't have to feel bad by not finishing their projects. It is a brutal world out there and there's tons of work to push your product and get noticed. And no, I have never gotten a book published, so you can take my words with a grain of salt.



Then we as writers shall have to try harder. I don't believe I have anything more to add.


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## SeverinR

Little Storm Cloud said:


> I do not believe Rupert Murdoch when he says newspapers will ultimately die (I think it was Murdoch who said that). I do not believe anybody who comes to me and brags about their new kindle and how it will take over real, solid books. Books have been around for a very long time. Books will prevail. Technology is a fleeting, evolving thing.
> 
> That said, perhaps I am an optimist...or perhaps I refuse to let go of my solid newspaper and my books.
> 
> I will certainly look at self-publishing and even as an e-book if need be. I don't care to make money or riches. I just want to share my story with some people, even if it's just a few people. I want to make it the very best that I can and I will try until I get what I bloody well want. If that means a thousand rejections, then so be it - at least I will have learned where to improve.



"Books will prevail. Technology is a fleeting, evolving thing."....I wonder if they said the same thing about scrolls when books came out?

Books will be around for a log time to come, but eventually they will go the way of film and digital cameras.  When you can carry a scores of books in a reader without trouble, printed books will "slowly" fade away.   
Can't new students can carry a reader with every book they need for a masters degree in it? I believe reference books will be the first to go. But eventually even the rec reader will use a reader.

I believe publishing will have to change with the times, and there will become more e-editors for the e-publishers. I am sure when the printing press came out, there were alot of people printing 
horrible writings just because they could. (Kind of like blogging now.)

Printed publishing is still the industry standard and a recognized way of setting amateur writers from the professionals.


----------



## Kit

SeverinR said:


> "
> Can't new students can carry a reader with every book they need for a masters degree in it? I believe reference books will be the first to go. But eventually even the rec reader will use a reader.



((Remembers college, going into the University bookstore every quarter and trudging out with a bag 80lb heavier and a wallet $450 lighter))


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## Steerpike

Severin:

I agree with you. Technology is evolving, yes, and as it continues to evolve it will push traditional books more and more to the rear. My young niece (less than two) already knows how to manipulate a tablet and is read to from eReaders. All of us grew up with books and have a nostalgic attraction to them. It won't be long before, in places like North America, much of Europe, Japan, etc. you'll have a population who has grown up with electronic books. Those will be the "normal" books for them.


----------



## The Dark One

On the subject of second hand books, I hated seeing my book for sale on ebay, until my publisher pointed out that the more people who read it, the more people will buy the sequel straight away. It's all about continually getting new product out that gradually ramps up your sales and keeps sending new readers into your backlist.

My publisher says that the industry rule of thumb is that for every book sold, four people will read it. It rings true because I've had quite a lot of fans send me emails telling me how much they enjoyed the book but confessing they'd bought it off ebay, or borrowed it and promising to *buy* the next one.

On top of that, it's just a nice feeling to be able to multiply your sales by four and realise that's how many people have read your book. Quite inspiring really.


----------



## SeverinR

Just submitted:
Fantasy Writing Contest

Fantasy-faction anthology "The World's Greatest Fantasy writing contest."

Submitted with 11 days to spare.

It accepted works up to 8000 word, I submitted 2900 words.


----------



## BeigePalladin

because I am too much of a perfectionist to ever admit I'm done and too much of a lazy ass to ever reach a stage were I'm out of ideas and have to say I'm done


----------



## J.P. Reedman

My friend, a scriptwriter (pro), asked me this question years ago. Finishing things was a big problem, and getting too caught up in editing the first chapters to death while the end was still very sketchy--I often ended up with what read like 2 different books! I'm not a quick writer either, it takes me a minimum of a year and a bit for a novel length book. I can't do 2 or 3 stories at once like some of my friends--my brain would explode!! I did have a lot of short stories/poems published in small presses in the 80's but I am not keen on short stories...only did it to get feedback/writing credits. Rejection letters affect me weirdly too...I don't get depressed, I just kind of lose interest in the project and want to move on to something else!


----------



## Shockley

Two reasons:

 1. I am perfecting my craft to the best of my ability. Too many authors rush their work out at a young age and the lack of quality shows (I'd argue that the only author to have reached a pinnacle of skill at my age would be Asimov, and he's substantially smarter than I am) and I don't want to be one of those guys. I don't want to be Paolini, so I work at this like it's a second job.

 My training method: I spend a lot of time reading, and I can usually finish off a good size book in one day (or maybe two, if I'm  not on the top of my game). I then sit down and go through the book again, underlining sentences that I find particularly beautiful and prose sections that spoke to me on some primal level. I then go over the book a third time, but this time with a notepad, computer or my typewriter (my preferred method for composition at this point) ready and I type out every sentence I've underlined. It's slow going and the ultimate grunt work, but I feel that my prose has become sharper.

 2. I'm not the best at making a coherent plot, so I'm never satisfied with the flow of the story.


----------



## Alex97

Two reasons for me as well really

Firstly I haven't finished writing what I'm working on.  Not much more to say about that.

Secondly I write more so as a hobby, the only real people I share what I've written with are freinds and people on forums.  Whilst getting published would be great I write for enjoyment more than anything else and it's not my chief ambition although I wouldn't mind slowly writting for a living as a sort of side job.


----------



## Stuart John Evison

It is only relatively recently that I worried about not being published and started to do something about it after 40 years of writing and illustrating mostly just for the joy of it. (I made my living carving wood and occasionally working in the music industry). I've always been a bit of a "I'm going to do it my way" type of person so when I came up against the "submission guidelines" that those in the publishing world throw at you I naturally gravitated to the idea of doing it myself and with the help of friends that's what I'm doing. E publishing is a godsend.


----------



## Architect_of_Aurah

Guys and gals, have to admire your ambition.  I've got a whole novel-length manuscript I haven't yet polished at home, and one short one that I have thought would make a nice book.  I can have those sent off to publishers by the end of the month if I push myself.  I will also continue my world-building and expanding my ideas.  I tried these ambitions last year with some success, but time got away from me.  Not in 2014.


----------



## kennyc

Architect_of_Aurah said:


> Guys and gals, have to admire your ambition.  I've got a whole novel-length manuscript I haven't yet polished at home, and one short one that I have thought would make a nice book.  I can have those sent off to publishers by the end of the month if I push myself.  I will also continue my world-building and expanding my ideas.  I tried these ambitions last year with some success, but time got away from me.  Not in 2014.



Best of luck to you!


----------



## Malik

I am published, just not in fantasy. 

I'm going to submit my first manuscript maybe a dozen more times. In the meantime I'm working to build my online presence, finish the second book in the series, and am lining up a blog tour. This year I'm going to hit the writers' conferences locally, as well. I just started working with a pair of published authors as their technical consultant for a military sci-fi series (no pay, but they know people), and my first article comes out on MS in two weeks. If I don't get a solid bite this year I'll self-publish.

I think that my hangup about self-publishing is that -- and this is vain as hell but it's who I am -- there's a validation in getting a book published. Quite literally, anyone can self-publish. (And, based on what I've been reading lately in self-published fantasy, anyone does, and that's the problem.) I'd like that notch in my belt that says that I write well enough to get a publishing deal. It probably won't happen; I missed the boat on this by 10 years. Which, ironically, is when I threw up my hands last time and put my manuscript in a box and moved on to other endeavors.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

There's one simple reason that I'm not already published....  

I'm not ready yet.  

Maybe after I complete the current WIP. I'm thinking it may be worth submittal or even self-publishing this time. We'll see.   

The others didn't measure up to the standard I want, though I learned a ton in writing and finishing them.   

Still, I refuse to put work out there just because it's been completed. It needs to be really good...beginning to end, and everything in between. Not perfect mind you...just really good.


----------



## Philip Overby

This is actually sort of necro-posted. I wrote the OP back in 2012. 

But yeah, my goals are still the same. Write things, complete them, and submit them. My goal is still for this year, 2014, to really crank something out and submit it. I do believe it's better to know when you're ready, but I feel like if I wait too long I'm letting the world pass me by.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

Phil the Drill said:


> This is actually sort of necro-posted. I wrote the OP back in 2012.


   Noticed that...seemed appropriate with the new year I suppose (though I despise the idea of resolutions).  





"Phil the Drill said:


> But yeah, my goals are still the same. Write things, complete them, and submit them. My goal is still for this year, 2014, to really crank something out and submit it. I do believe it's better to know when you're ready, but I feel like if I wait too long I'm letting the world pass me by.


I agree Phil. Personally, I think I've reached a bit of a plateau in my writing. I learned so much, so fast from my first completed work to now. If you compare my first finished, novel length work to my current project, it's night and day. Honestly, the early works make me shudder. I keep them as proof of growth.... My eyes only.  

Now though, I feel I'm making choices in my writing rather than writing clumsy words that just happen to be good or bad. I think both my style and voice have matured. The gains are coming along at a slower pace now.... That's why I'm now thinking I'm ready, or close to ready. My work now sounds more like the vision I have for my stories. The gap between vision and execution has narrowed..... I hope.


----------



## Philip Overby

I was writing something the other day, stopped and said, "Wow, this is actually pretty good." That's not a reaction I've often had to myself, but I think this is definitely a good sign as a writer. To be able to recognize growth is a huge deal. I keep a lot of old projects to remind myself of that as well. 

I know that not everyone will think I'm great or even good. Hell, some may think I suck. But I'm closing in on my 33rd birthday and I feel like I can look back at myself when I was 30 and I said, "This is the year I'm going to submit things and get my work out there." I can only say that to myself so many times.


----------



## Kit

I too have had those "Damn, this is pretty good," moments. 

Additionally, I was cleaning out some boxes of old papers last week, and found writing from high school and college with teacher commentary on it talking about how good/gifted I am. I had forgotten the college English course wherein the teacher (a published author himself) called me up to his desk after about two assignments and told me that we were wasting one another's time... that I should get out of his classroom, and finish the course by writing whatever I wanted and sticking it in his mail slot every once in a while.  :eek2:  :dance:

 That was over 20 yrs ago, and one would hope that there had been some improvement in the interim. It was a nice boost of encouragement to see those comments. I really wish I could get off my ass and get over my terror of rejection. I *know* my stuff is good.


----------



## Philip Overby

Rejection is like getting stung by a bee. The first time it hurts. Then after you're stung about a dozen more times, you become numb to the feeling. It just becomes, "Oh, another bee sting" or "Oh, another rejection." I can see how if you're getting rejected at every turn it can be dejecting, but if writers are treating their writing as a job or a career, they have to be ready for a wide spectrum of reactions to their work. 

If someone is confident that their writing is ready, there really is no other excuse. You're going to get rejected. It's going to hurt. You'll get over it. But if you know you're ready, chances are other people are going to recognize that same aspect of your talent. Those people are out there. Waiting. They actually are begging you to send something to them. 

I personally don't fear rejection anymore because I never get attached to any one thing I write. Sure, I am passionate about it, but if someone doesn't like it, they don't like it. I'll find someone who does. And one may grow to be a hundred and then a thousand. Who knows?


----------



## Mythopoet

Sheer laziness.


----------



## Ireth

I'm *hoping* to be published in a literary magazine this year... if my short story wins the contest I wrote it for. Sadly, I won't know until February whether I even have a chance. If I don't win, I'll see about making the story better and maybe longer, and submitting it somewhere else. ^^


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## The Dark One

I suspect few writers have been rejected more than I have. (Literally over a hundred times, before I hit the jackpot.)

Rejection is important for numerous reasons, but the main two are these:

- rejection forces you to become the writer you are capable of being; and
- rejection forces you to think like a publisher.

This second point is really important. Just because your writing is good doesn't mean its publishable. Publishers have their own ideas about what the market wants to read and for every book published there will be hundreds of mss considered technically good enough, but not on the money re the market.


----------



## Chessie

I haven't pursued publishing in several years. I expected the rejection letters and by this time, self-publishing is more my thing than traditional. I'm with T. Allen in that I haven't felt ready yet. I've spent the past couple years playing around with my writing and learning about the craft. There has been no rush for me, although now I do feel ready. I'm working on a project that I'd like to publish, but the timing of the publishing depends on other factors such as editing, cover, etc. I want to do the best job I can in preparing my work for the public to see. Its exciting thinking that I'm finally ready to do this.


----------



## Svrtnsse

It's not even a year since I started my first novel and I don't feel that I can honestly expect anyone to actually pay for the short stories I've written.
I intend to finish my novel this year though and when I get to that point I'll figure out how to self-publish.


----------



## skip.knox

Phil the Drill said:


> Rejection is like getting stung by a bee. The first time it hurts. Then after you're stung about a dozen more times, you become numb to the feeling.



Or you bloat up and die. There are multiple possibilities here....

Truly, though, you need to experience rejection in order to know how you are going to react to it. Finish something. Submit it. Get the rejection notice and rejoice, for you could just as well have been ignored utterly. And anyway, you already have two wins to one loss (finished - win; submitted - win).


----------



## Philip Overby

skip.knox said:


> Or you bloat up and die. There are multiple possibilities here....
> 
> Truly, though, you need to experience rejection in order to know how you are going to react to it. Finish something. Submit it. Get the rejection notice and rejoice, for you could just as well have been ignored utterly. And anyway, you already have two wins to one loss (finished - win; submitted - win).



Well, the difference is you can't die from rejection.  At least I've never heard of someone physically dying after their manuscript was rejected. 

I agree that finishing something is a big win. Submitting is even bigger. I guess for many people they need justification or validation that all the time they spent doing something was worth it. Perhaps that's why rejection hurts. But I spend lots of time watching movies and I don't expect anything more out of it than I can say I watched a lot of movies. Writing and submitting is something you should actually get better at as time goes on. You learn what markets to avoid, what editors may not understand what you're trying to do, learn from editors that give you feedback, etc.

I recommend submitting your writing to markets even if you intend to self-publish. It couldn't hurt anyway.


----------



## Sia

Just because publishing isn't something I have any real interest in.


----------



## buyjupiter

Because it's taken me twenty years to write well. From the first stories I wrote using my spelling words for school to the stories I wrote for my senior project in high school to the stories I wrote for myself when I was out of school to the stories I wrote as projects for school when I went back to college. It took that long to learn how to write and how to write well.

Now, I am ready and I am submitting things (and getting rejected). This year's goal is to write enough that _something _is accepted, even if it's for $20 and a submitter's copy.


----------



## Mythopoet

The Dark One said:


> I suspect few writers have been rejected more than I have. (Literally over a hundred times, before I hit the jackpot.)
> 
> Rejection is important for numerous reasons, but the main two are these:
> 
> - rejection forces you to become the writer you are capable of being; and
> - rejection forces you to think like a publisher.
> 
> This second point is really important. Just because your writing is good doesn't mean its publishable. Publishers have their own ideas about what the market wants to read and for every book published there will be hundreds of mss considered technically good enough, but not on the money re the market.



I think I used to buy in to the "rejection is necessary" view. Now I'm not so sure. What I am sure of is that there are multiple ways to receive the effect of rejection and it is NOT necessary to get rejection from a traditional publishing company to grow as a writer. 

"rejection forces you to become the writer you are capable of being"

Possibly. Much of the time it seems to force writers to become the kind of writer that publishing companies want them to be. Write the way the agents, editors and publishers want you to write or you'll never sell, is the message of trad publishing rejections. And what trad publishing wants you to be is the next Harry Potter or the next Twilight or the next 50 Shades. They don't really care about the so-called quality of your writing as long as you sell and make them millions. 

I doubt the effectiveness of such negative reinforcement to be able to _force_ anything truly positive. The relationship between trad publishing and the writer is one of power and control and exploitation over the writer. In the end, it's only good for you if you win the lottery and become a huge bestseller by accident because then they treat you like royalty while they're trying to exploit you and at the very least if you're a huge bestseller you can afford to be exploited.

I think becoming the writer you are "capable" of being is something only you can do for yourself. Others can support you, but it is really, ultimately and entirely up to you as a person. Every writer is different. This is the only absolute statement that can be made of any group of people. Every single member of the group is different from all the others. Every writer will have different needs, different goals, different ways of responding to feedback, etc. Trad pub has, basically, only one approach and it only works well for some writers. 

"rejection forces you to think like a publisher"

God help the human race the day writers start to think like _traditional_ publishers. Trad publishers are not at all concerned about what readers want to read. They don't actually think about the end reader at all, which is why runaway bestsellers are always catching them by surprise. Publishers sell to bookstores and so views the bookstore buyers (and book buyers from book carrying chains like Walmart and Target) as their customers. They do not have the end reader in mind when deciding what to publish. They make these decisions based on what they think the bookstores will want to order from them which depends entirely on what books have done well in those stores previously. 

(This, incidentally, is why the idea that trad publishing "nurtures" author careers is so totally off base. If your first book didn't sell to expectation you can expect your trad pub career to quickly go downhill from there.)

I do think that writers need to think like a publisher, but NOT like a trad publisher. Trad publishing has forgotten that they are not the point of the book industry, that the "book" is not even the point of the book industry (the packaging doesn't matter, the content does). They have forgotten that they are middle men whose job is to connect authors with readers. They're so out of touch with readers that industry experts have often declared genres to be dead that are now thriving on Amazon. Writers don't want to think like that. 

Yes, Think Like a Publisher, but NOT a traditional publisher. Think like a small businessperson, because if you want to make a living from your writing that is what you are. Don't go into this with the attitude, "Oh, I'm just a writer. All I want to do is write. I need an agent and a publisher to take care of all that business and technical stuff." Be responsible for your career, don't put it in the hands of others.

Back to the point, there isn't much that being rejected by someone in trad pub can tell you other than "this specific person and/or company doesn't think the story will sell well". And that is next to useless. (Look at how many editors didn't think Harry Potter would sell well.) However, being able to go direct to readers and learning from how readers respond to your work, whether the reader rejects or accepts it, is very useful. In fact, there are plenty of other places you can get the negative reinforcement of rejection, if that's something that helps you (again, all writers are different), but trad publishing is probably the worst place to get it.


----------



## kennyc

Mythopoet said:


> I think I used to buy in to the "rejection is necessary" view. Now I'm not so sure. What I am sure of is that there are multiple ways to receive the effect of rejection and it is NOT necessary to get rejection from a traditional publishing company to grow as a writer.
> 
> "rejection forces you to become the writer you are capable of being"
> 
> Possibly. Much of the time it seems to force writers to become the kind of writer that publishing companies want them to be. .....
> Back to the point, there isn't much that being rejected by someone in trad pub can tell you other than "this specific person and/or company doesn't think the story will sell well". And that is next to useless.



^^^^ This ^^^^


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## psychotick

Hi,

Self pubbed so can't really commit to the pledge, but would just like to coment on the line - "Rejection forces you to become the writer you are capable of being."

This is crap. Sorry for the rudeness, but I don't submit to Nietzsche in any form. If it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger, is fairly much the parent of that line, and it too is utter crap. Many people survive things and don't become stronger. They may not learn from their experience. They may be crippled by it. And in the same way rejection can damage you as a writer.

How many writers have given up because of rejection? I don't know but I'm guessing it's a lot. And I'm sure that absolutely none of them have become better writers because of it. How many writers have accepted this massive chip on their shoulder - "I wasn't published because I wasn't good enough." When the truth is there could be any number of reasons why their work wasn't picked up and mostly you don't know because you get a form letter if you're lucky. You just assume and rewrite and rewrite in the dark. That doesn't necessarily make you a better writer. And how many have found themselves a comfortable rut in writing, submitting and being rejected? They aren't becoming better writers either, they're just happier ones.

What does make you a better writer? Getting published no matter how you do it and then being critiqued. Taking the slings and arrows. And if agents and publishers won't pick you up you really do have to look at self publishing. Yes your work may be crap. But at least you'll have someone tell you that. And you'll have a place to improve from - thus becoming a better writer. It may also be awe-bloody-som and then you'll be spitting tacks thinking how damned stupid was I to waste all those years hunting for agents and publishers. And then you'll get some kudos, feel good about your writing, and burn with excitement for writing your next book. Thus you will become an even better writer.

So here's my version of Phil's challenge. Yes to all four steps - but modify the last one. I will try A, B and C. And then if I get nothing back I will self publish. In short I will be published no matter the means and I will then know where I stand and know where to go.

If you want to be a better writer you have to commit.

Sorry for the crudeness.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Philip Overby

I am on a phone so this will be short for now but completely discrediting trad publishing seems like limiting more opportunities for oneself. Writers are best served to reach a wider readership by considering all options before them both trad and self-publishing.


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## Nagash

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> Self pubbed so can't really commit to the pledge, but would just like to coment on the line - "Rejection forces you to become the writer you are capable of being."
> 
> This is crap. Sorry for the rudeness, but I don't submit to Nietzsche in any form. If it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger, is fairly much the parent of that line, and it too is utter crap. Many people survive things and don't become stronger. They may not learn from their experience. They may be crippled by it. And in the same way rejection can damage you as a writer.



Nietzsche's philosophy isn't built on universality; it isn't interested in giving a set of dogmas and concepts. Instead, it tries to forge a philosophy about the art of living and teach man to become that which he was always meant to be : the Ãœbermensch. In this sense, he who really learned how to live, should grow stronger from his painful experience. It teaches you that no matter how much you fall, you can and should stand again, taller. These aren't just silly quotes we throw around since they look nice; they are a real life lesson we received as Nietzsche tried to teach us how to reach the Super-human.

And as a matter of fact, I do believe he who has been rejected should feel strengthened. Because if he goes back out there after humiliation, if he goes on no matter what, well, it proves he's real tough. It proves he truly believes in his work. And that is what matters most. 

Just thought i'd clarify that, since i fiercely admire Nietzsche's work.


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## psychotick

Hi,

I didn't suggest completely disregarding trade publishing. I just say there comes a point when you have to decide that for whatever reason it's not going to be your friend.

Cheers, Greg.


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## psychotick

Hi Nagash,

Not wanting to derail the thread, Nietzsche was a broken man desperately trying to deny the painful realities of his life, father a priest who died when he was six or seven, a series of ongoing unexplained illnesses that all but crippled him. His philosophy is born from these things. It is like one huge giant cry of denial from start to finish, summed up perhaps best as a cry that there had to be a purpose to his suffering, because otherwise everything he was going through was for nothing. This is seen clearly both in his concept of the overman and in his polemics against religion. (Note I use the word polemics which is really too generous to him. Had he been alive today and tried to say something like that in public he would have been hurled in jail for hate speech.)

It is true that if you do overcome adversity you can become a stronger person in some way. It is not true that this is necessarily so. And if you examine the concept of the overman in more detail, you will realise that the being he describes is not someone to be admired. He's a self centred, narcissistic sociopath. I mean surely just the title of his work on this "Beyond Good and Evil" should have expressed this. The overman makes up his own rules as to what he thinks is moral regardless of what anyone else might think. You do not want to meet a man like that.

As to your writer, he does not want to become stronger as a person by taking rejection stoically (at least not within the context ofthis thread.) The thread is about him becoming a better writer. And getting a rejection slip with bugger all explanation of why the work was rejected, does not help him do that. Not a fraction as much as the reviews you get from readers, the people you're writing your work for. 

Further, by not taking that leap but just endlessly resubmitting to agents and publishers, your writer is actually becoming weaker as a person. He's found he can deal easily with the rejection slips, and he expects them. That's actually a comfortable position. A rut as I mentioned before. He doesn't have to push himself out of that rut, to take the plunge into the world of publishing and face the water. Instead he can just sit at home, submitting and submitting, receiving rejection slips one after the other, and tell himself he's writing, becoming better at it.

Look a long time ago I did learn to swim classes with all the other three and four year olds. I don't particularly remember them, but I've seen plenty of others go through the process since. And the first step is that everyone lines up on the side of the pool and practices spinning their arms and turning their heads to breathe. And in all the years since then I have never met one successful swimmer who achieved his goal simply by standing there on the side of the pool practising his stroke. Nor have I ever met one person who has ever been met by a coach while standing there who has told him you do this so well that I'm going to train you to become an Olympic swimmer. At some point you have to jump in. With a coach (agent) or without one. With your stroke (writing) perfected or not.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Nagash

I don't wish to derail the topic either, so I won't try to start a debate here... But I just wanted to point out some things.

Yes, Nietzsche was definitely a broken man, not to mention a mad one in the final years, and a dull one, according to his close friend Paul RÃ©e. And yes, most of his philosophy was the fruit of his experience as a sickly man living a tough life in a tough society; and most of what he said could have been interpreted as pure madness or some mystic delirium. Yet, having read many of his works, and not exclusively Beyond Good and Evil, in order to get a real sense of his philosophy, I believe Nietzsche never had one single and inflexible philosophy. He was a passionate man, albeit a tortured one, writing on impulses, with a semi-puzzling prose, leaving you speechless. I find it to be both dazzlingly lavish and unsettling... I read Thus spoke Zarathustra half a dozen time, and still haven't grasped it in its whole complexity and depth. Maybe it's just over me; maybe its just the gorgeous and meaningless aphorism of a heartbreaking sad clown. 

In any case, Nietzsche drove against the current of his time; anti-democrat, anti-religious... I don't know if he ever believed in these ideas he threw around in his works, or if it was simply done in order to demolish the occidental doctrine. I guess we'll never know about that. As for his over-man, i am well aware of what monster it consists of... Egotist, self-centered beyond morality, passionate (not in a good way), drunk with power... I'm not saying the Over-man is something we should aim to become; I do think however, than while walking along the path Nietzsche designed, we shall meet with a different version of ourselves. Somewhat of a middle-ground between the narcissistic and manipulated creatures we are today, and Nietzsche unleashed and untamed monster. Because in the end, the Over-man isn't just about narcissism; it's about being free. It's about being free to think, to break some of the shackles society built for us. Sure, in Nietzsche's time, it would be religion, Hegelian and Kantian morality; but it would be a whole lot different today... That's the beauty of Nietzsche's thinking; it doesn't settle in space or time; it simply is about rebelling against conventions, revolting against the current, finally learning to think on our own and stop howling with the wolves... 

In many ways, Nietzsche philosophy is juste about making your own; what he gave us, was a head start, as he brought down the monolith european culture had been living in all along.

And to be honest, after many many pages of colorful prose, what I retain mostly of Nietzsche, is that, while he certainly faced horrible moments in his life, he had a human heart, with many weaknesses, and a true admiration for beauty. He truly loved, passionately, and cherished these little things in life we dismiss far too often.


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## Mythopoet

I don't really think Nietzsche and his ideas have anything to do with this. I think traditional publishing has built up a myth around themselves that too many writers buy into, that getting rejected by trad pub is a trial that one must go through on the quest to get Published and that the gatekeepers of trad pub are the only ones that have the authority and the right to grant this honor and the only ones who can eventually grant acceptance once the writer has gone through all the trials and tribulations of the quest. Anything less, the myth tells us, wouldn't be real, wouldn't be valid. Real writers get published by a traditional publisher, everyone else is just a fake. 



Phil the Drill said:


> I am on a phone so this will be short for now but completely discrediting trad publishing seems like limiting more opportunities for oneself. Writers are best served to reach a wider readership by considering all options before them both trad and self-publishing.



I am not against the idea of licensing one's work to another company to produce and distribute it in consumable form. 

However, I am vehemently against the current established traditional publishing industry which is built up on the backs of writers, but treats them as second class citizens or worse. Trad pub has built themselves a culture of entitlement (How dare someone come into OUR industry and compete with us?), exploitation and mistreatment of writers, and ignoring the consumer. They broke the law because they felt they were entitled to and still believe they did no wrong, despite costing customers extra millions. They embrace contracts that are downright immoral with things like non-compete clauses, which can cost a writer his entire career, and other things that are probably illegal, but what mid-list writer could afford to go to court to find out? They employ what is known as "Hollywood reporting" to avoid giving the writer any more in royalties than they absolutely have to, because again, what average writer can afford to take them to court to get their fair share? The advances and royalties they offer, in general (if you're not a big shot) are pitiful, not nearly enough to let a writer make a living unless they hit the bestseller lottery, because they also want to keep writers from writing too much and their production schedules are ridiculous. And don't even get me started on agents. Then they convince writers that all this is as it should be. It's "industry standard". And the writers desperate for validation lap it up. Poor souls. 

Almost universally, this is how the industry conducts itself. If you can find a hidden corner of trad pub that doesn't treat writers like an endless supple of widgets then good for you. But I doubt it very much. Perhaps someday things will change. Perhaps the companies will be forced to change or perhaps these ones will be gone and new, smarter publishing businesses will thrive. (Amazon, for instance, treats its writers very well.) Until that day I'll continue to stand against our current publishing industry. And yes, with all due respect, I think that writers who still buy in to this system are pretty stupid. It's like willingly laying down in the mud so that someone else can use you for a carpet. It's also like gambling your entire future career on an insignificant chance to win the lottery. 

Keep your career in your hands, in my opinion. Cut out as many middle men as you can. The writer tells the story, the reader consumes the story. Everyone else either needs to work for them or get out of the way.


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## kennyc

Dean Wesley Smith on "The New World of Publishing: How to Keep Your Writing Going for All of 2014"

Useful for those hoping to get published.

The New World of Publishing: How to Keep Your Writing Going for All of 2014 |


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## Gurkhal

Because I'm to lazy to put enough effort into it to even have a shot at getting publish.


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## Chessie

The rejection letters I've received have not made me a stronger writer. What has improved my skills is writing more, sharing it with my beta readers, getting feedback, continuing to learn about the craft through various avenues. Not winning writing contests bums me out more than the rejection letters, which is peculiar. But yes, improvement in my case has come from forming good writing habits and persistence. I plan on self-publishing simply because I'm already a small business owner so I prefer the Indie route. I agree with Mythopoet in that as a writer, I am also selling widgets ie books. It serves my higher purpose to know the publishing business. I wouldn't discount the traditional route if a juicy deal came along, who knows what can happen. Every writer has different needs and I do think its important to consider both options just because they exist.


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## buyjupiter

Chesterama said:


> Not winning writing contests bums me out more than the rejection letters, which is peculiar.



I completely understand this one. ^

Also, getting rejected by assistants to the assistant editor of something bums me out more than getting rejected in 10 1/2 hours by the editor/publisher of a publication. I guess it's more flattering to be told "no" by a big name than by nameless persons?

I also try to take the rejections as a notice that a particular story is not fitting into that specific market. There are plenty of markets to try, each wants something a little bit different than the others. So, I think that if a writer goes into submitting with the frame of mind that only _that _venue is worth sending something to, there may be a great deal of disappointment. If a writer uses the experience, instead, and thinks about where else to send something to there may be greater success rates.

The worst thing that happens from being told "no" is that you learn it doesn't work for that market. You may not learn why (not really an obligation for the editor to provide feedback, but if they do accept it gracefully and learn from it!), but you do learn that somewhere it isn't working for someone. That's when you know you need to tinker with it some more. 

There's also the upside that you've submitted something. Your name is out there. The more times you do that, to as many markets as you can with almost-good-enough pieces, the better the odds are of making it. 

I am trying both routes. I'm not debating from a "trad pubs" are the only way position. I think that in my experience, how I approach business dealings (whether they're successful or not) is a good indicator of how hard I'm willing to work for it. If I only focused on the negative aspects of being rejected/not published, early on while I'm still flailing about in a story trying to figure it all out, then I'd have given up last month. And the month before that. 

And seriously, isn't the best non-monetary part the satisfaction of writing itself? I don't know how excited *happy dance* I'll be when I get something accepted and sold, but I do feel a great deal of joy when I finish something or when I make an idea work when I've been struggling with it.


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## psychotick

Hi Buyjupiter,

Actually there are a whole lot of satisfactions to self-publishing. One of the biggest buzzes I got was early last year when I held my own book in my own hand. Now that was a surreal moment. Having fans and positive reviews is also pretty amazing -even when they all seem to be saying "do a sequel" and you simply don't have one. Watching sales tick over and achieving milestones is pretty good. And don't underestmate the money. Those monthly cheques can be a pleasant diversion, and there areplenty of self published writers who are making a living at this. I aim to be one of them by the end of the year.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Sam Evren

I did finish. I did submit to agents and publishers. I received oh so many stacks of rejections. I received two individual acceptances from agents who believed in my book.

The first agent to accept it wrote after a month or so to tell me she'd had a death in family and she was leaving on sabbatical. She asked if she could hold on to the book until she was back. I agreed. About a year later, she wrote to tell me she didn't have the business in her any more. She left me to go my merry way.

The next acceptance from an agent ended pretty much the same. "I'll do it," turned into "I'm getting out of this business, good luck."

Bad luck - or really, really weird rejection process? Honestly not sure. Though the first agent had a well established agency. I'd researched her, read interviews and reviews of her agency, but, still, ended up in the same place.

I sat on it for a long time. Until I needed it, really. I drug it out and dusted it off and went back to work trying to polish as best I could. After years of being pushed by people who had already read it to put it on Kindle, that's what I did.

That being said, I am moving on the next book(s) (I take notes for the stories I want to tell but aren't currently in the writing process.) I started before the holiday season, and I'll keep it going until it's finished.


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## The Dark One

The Dark One said:


> I suspect few writers have been rejected more than I have. (Literally over a hundred times, before I hit the jackpot.)
> 
> Rejection is important for numerous reasons, but the main two are these:
> 
> - rejection forces you to become the writer you are capable of being; and
> - rejection forces you to think like a publisher.
> 
> This second point is really important. Just because your writing is good doesn't mean its publishable. Publishers have their own ideas about what the market wants to read and for every book published there will be hundreds of mss considered technically good enough, but not on the money re the market.



Good god! Seems I struck a nerve. 

Let me start by saying that I did not say that rejection is the only thing that makes you a better writer, and nowhere did I suggest that thinking like a publisher meant thinking like a traditional publisher...whatever a traditional publisher is...

I don't have the time to address all the points made extrapolating or reinterpreting my post above, so I shall focus just on psychotick's polemic against 'trad' publishers.

Traditional publishers are not just some amorphous evil mass, the same everywhere. They are made up of diverse individuals who are vitally interested in good books and good writing. They live to discover new voices and by god you've got to be good to get taken seriously (let alone published). To suggest that traditional publishers all want to force writers to write in some uniform corporately approved manner is simply wrong. They have their own ideas about what will or won't work in the marketplace and they stick pretty rigidly within those lines, but that's their commercial judgment - it's not them forcing writers to change the way they write. They will survive or perish on the basis of their judgment because in today's digital world where anyone can be a publisher good literary judgment is all they have to sell. 

Publishing is a hugely competitive business - probably the most competitive there is - and only the very best claw their way to the top of the Darwinian pile (irrespective of which route you take). When I finished my first novel (in about 1997) I thought it was a work of genius. It seemed only a matter of time before publishers started driving dump trucks full of money up to my house and I entertained daydreams of signing away the film rights in some gorgeous office above Manhattan. It was rejected about 20 times and I was forced to review it with different eyes. These days I can't read two sentences without vomiting blood, but back then I thought it was inspired.

And that's my concern about new writers today. They get a couple of rejections and race straight to self-publishing, not realising that what they've produced is really just a first draft. Obviously that's a massive generalisation and there are plenty of decent/successful self-pubbed books. As I said in my original post, for every book published in the mainstream there are probably hundreds technically good enough, but there are also hundreds of others which are not. I did some slush pile reading for a small publisher for a couple of years and let me tell you it was dire. In the 40 or 50 mss referred to me not one was worth pursuing. I always gave reasons for rejection and had a number of letters referred back to me, mostly written by embittered types indignant that I hadn't perceived the majesty of their creation. They hadn't engaged with my criticisms and were therefore unlikely to learn from them. That was about ten or so years ago but today those same people would be saying: Right! I'll show that ratbag! And triumphantly publish their unedited, poorly crafted drivel online.  

Judging by the level of discourse on this forum, I'd expect that most people here would be writing at a level that was technically worthy of being published, so it becomes a matter of judgment. You will have to learn to think like a publisher no matter what publishing route you take.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Keeping in line with how someone handles rejection...    

You're going to face rejection one way or another. If it's traditional publishing that comes at the hands of agents or editors. If self-publishing you'll likely receive rejection from not selling books or from receiving poor reviews. Even wildly successful authors get some bad reviews.    

Lastly, if anyone can talk you out of being a writer, then you're not a writer to begin with. That's true of any endeavor. If you can't handle rejection & still push forward to success, then you just didn't care enough. If you truly want to achieve something, anything, you will do so, rejection be damned.  

How someone handles failure has a lot to do with their ability to succeed.


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## psychotick

Hi Dark One,

I didn't make any of those comments about trade publishers and evil amorphous masses. I think you've confused my post with another (Mythopoets?)

Cheers, Greg.


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## The Dark One

Sorry Greg...that must be because I see people who disagree with me as just an evil amorphous mass.


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## A. E. Lowan

There is another point to be raised about the differences between traditional publishing and indie.  Someone, I am not going to go back and look, raised the (incorrect) point that one does not grow from being rejected by form letter.  But yet somehow putting out the same work that would be rejected by the traditional publishing juggernaut will garner reader reviews which will lead to improvement.  Um... I'm sorry, that's not how the real world works.

With traditional publishing, yes, most rejections are form letters (unless you get the super-awesome personalized ones).  This is due to the massive amount of manuscripts that agents and publishers have to wade through every week, every month, and every year.  Not because they are heartless users of our talent who seek to take advantage of us and suck us dry.  They are hard working men and women who love books, just like us, and wade through those slush piles looking for new writers.  The beauty of the normal traditional rejection, as faceless as it may seem, is that it is also _private_.  The only person who needs to know you were rejected is you.  And, this may sound harsh but this is a rough business, any writer who isn't dedicated enough to pick themselves up and dust themselves off and say, "What's next?" as they start the next project and continue to improve is probably not cut out to be a professional.

Indie publishing, on the other hand, is not only supremely easy, it's supremely public - not a good combination if your work is not the masterpiece you've convinced yourself it is.  In a market where hardback books came out as the surprise front running sellers of the last quarter of 2013, self-publishing has become inundated with offerings that are of such poor quality as to be barely intelligible.  So, picture that hypothetically somehow in this cacophony of crap you manage to attract readers who not only buy your book, they read it and feel strongly enough to leave a review.  If your work is not clean, not crisp, not professional - in other words, if you think you have room to improve (because this is how writers improve, right?) and somehow these readers who have_ paid money for your work _will tell you how you can find ways to do so out of the kindness of their hearts, you my friend are in for a very rude awakening.  And this will happen in that most _public_ of venues, the reader reviews of a major internet retailer.  Now, your professional name is out there, on the internet where true immortality reigns, attached to substandard work with bad reviews.

How is this better than a form letter, again?

Now, I'm not saying that indie publishing is bad and traditional publishing is good.  They both have issues and benefits.  What I am saying is be professional, be prepared, and do your own homework and stop regurgitating what you read from one or two sources online.  The real face of publishing is both more diverse, and more crazy, than you can imagine.  And it's changing almost every day.


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## psychotick

Hi AEL,

I didn't say that getting hit by one star reviews was easy. It is public and it is painful. And sometimes it's not even that honest. But any information you get is better than a form letter that tells you nothing. Your sales numbers tell you something as well. And when they go up and down as you alter blurbs and covers or advertise, you learn a lot.

In the end which would you rather have? No information other than the fact that your book hasn't been picked up? Or a dozen reviews, lots of them hurtful, that tell you what your readers think is wrong and right with your book? Which is going to help you improve as a writer more?

And my nightmare in this debate would be sitting waiting for an agent to pick you up after so many submissions for five or ten years, and each time guessing that the reason they didn't pick you up was because; 
1 The writing was too loose 
2 It was too tight 
3 There was too much purple prose 
4 Too much introspection
5 Not enough introspection
6 Too much showing
7 Too much telling

And in the end while you keep beavering away - perfecting your novel in the dark as you guess what they thought the problem was, the real reason they didn't pick you up was that they had fifty other books in their pile and there simply wasn't room for another.

And lets be honest here, your audience are the people you publish for. They will tell you what they think is good and bad for them. And that is the information you need to make a book more acceptable to them. Your beta readers and editors are a specialist group. They aren't necessarily representative of your readers. And agents and publishers are only guessing what your readers will want. (Guessing more now that so much more of the market has gone indie and so they don't control it as they once did.)

As for the name and the immortality bit. You can always unpublish if you choose. It may not be a perfect solution, but it can be done.

As for the psychological impact of these reviews and critiques, you were always going to have that whether you go trade or indie. LOTR has loads of one star reviews. But this is the difference between writing and publishing. If you're going to publish you have to develop a thick skin.

And again, I have not in any way said that trade publishing agents and publishers are bad people or doing bad things to authors. I'm sure they are for the most part exactly as you say. I'm not talking about them at all. I'm talking about you as a writer. If you want to publish, you have to publish. It really is that simple. And it will be the best way in which you will improve as an author, no matter how painful.

Cheers, Greg.


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## psychotick

Hi,

By the way, forgot to add: Self publishing is easy to do if you don't want to do it well. If you do want to do it well on the other hand it will require an awful lot of hard work. Steep learning curves etc. I would never suggest to anyone that self publishing is easy.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## The Dark One

Look, this wasn't intended to be a debate about trad versus indie. It was about responding to rejection (from my perspective). Let's try and stay on track.


----------



## Chessie

Slightly off topic if I may for a second: I have enjoyed the Indie books I've read and they were all professional in their presentation. In fact, I prefer to read Indie stories--just like I prefer to watch Indie films. I like supporting individuals in their artistic endeavors and I think its hard work to publish a book alone. I respect it. Lately it seems I'm coming across many articles on the internet saying how some Indie authors are publishing without their work being ready. I don't understand it. Let people be. We all share the same dream and there's no right or wrong way to do it...its all about individual perspective. But that's my two cents.

Back on topic before the mods get me: I'm definitely going to take up Phil's challenge. In 2012 and 2013, it was a huge step for me to let beta readers have a taste of my work. I have learned a lot from their reviews and also from being on these forums. But its time I published, or try to do so. I'm still figuring out how to structure my goals, but I at least want to submit work. He's right. I should just go for it. If we wait too long, time passes us by. I'm in my early 30s with plenty of life to live, so why not start now? I've dreamed about being a professional writer since my teens. Thank you, Phil for putting this out there. I'm taking advantage of it and holding myself responsible via this forum and my social media.


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## Philip Overby

OK, now that I'm back from my trip, I can add my two cents a bit more. I just wanted to note, that this discussion eventually evolved into the Mythic Scribes Blood Pact which you can find here. http://mythicscribes.com/forums/writing-groups/3365-mythic-scribes-blood-pact.html

The idea of this thread when I wrote it back in 2012 was to motivate myself and others to strive to finish their work and submit it (or publish it, depending on traditional or self-publishing methods). It was never intended to be "which way is the better way." I frankly don't care what publishing path a writer takes if it makes them happy and they're satisfied with the choices they've made. The goal of this thread was originally meant to encourage people to really look more deeply at themselves why they weren't reaching their publishing goals. It was more about finding the path to write/polish/submit that seems to evade so many for various reasons. 

That said, we all face rejection one way or another, as many have stated very well above me. It can be facing the gatekeepers of traditional publishing, getting bad reviews, or even giving into your inner editor and, yes, rejecting _yourself_. There always comes that point when you have to quit blaming others for why you're not achieving your writing goals and figure out your own path. Either by trying new methods or taking your lumps and carrying on. 

One way or another, talking about goals has to become pursuing goals. I hope I've been working my way toward my original goal of having something published by 2014, but if I don't reach that goal, I feel like I"ll be satisfied knowing that I tried this time and didn't just pile up more excuses for why I didn't achieve what I said I was going to.

So yeah, this isn't about traditional publishing vs. self-publishing. It's about getting your work into readers' hands instead of just talking about it.


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## JRFLynn

Mainly, I have trouble finishing what I start...and yes, sometimes I think my story is complete crapola. Trying to get over that. Another reason would be that the publishing process is completely daunting, I'm going for Indie but I have no idea where to start. Editing, illustration, Ebook publishing, maybe getting an agent, or starting a blog (which is even scarier). Yaiyai! That's going to be tricky!

One step at a time, I guess. Hopefully I'll finish the 1st draft by next year!


----------



## Mythopoet

All right, I'm sorry for derailing the thread. I'll stick to the topic at hand or shut my mouth. 

Like JRFlynn I have a hard time finishing things. This is probably why yesterday I came up with the idea for a story in which the characters of unfinished stories come to life to try to get their authors to finish their stories and give them closure. Of course, as I said in chat, if I tried to write it I'd probably never finish. 

I said upthread that my problem is "sheer laziness", but that isn't really true. The fact that at this point in my life I'm a mother of five young children (oldest is 10, youngest is 9 months) two of whom are autistic and most of my energy gets used up in caring for them. At the end of the day, I usually feel exhausted and used up and not fit for any sort of creative writing. I don't mind this because my family is my primary vocation. While I take writing seriously and will treat publishing as professionally as I can when I am ready, it is more like a hobby than a career for me. I am not trying to make a living at it (though I strongly support writers who are). I just want to share my stories with the world, even if it takes years to finish anything and get it out there. I'm more on the Tolkien side of things than, say, the Stephen King side. And I'm happy there, even if I can't manage to publish anything until the kids are much older.


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## Kit

JRFLynn said:


> or starting a blog (which is even scarier). Yaiyai! That's going to be tricky!



If you want to start a blog, do it. Most blog systems will let you control who can see it. You can make it utterly private, make it accessible only to a few people of your choosing, or make it public. Even if you make it public, unless you aggressively advertise it, very few people will find it. So go ahead and do it, and only advertise when/if you decide you're ready.


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## AnneL

FWIW, my book is being published 20 years after I got my MFA. (It's not my MFA manuscript, which is safely trunked.) Perseverance pays off.


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## psychotick

Hi Phil,

I also apologise for derailing the thread. My only point really in this is to point out that self publishing is a valid method of getting yourself published. (Not talking about quality here or any of those other issues - just about getting your work published.) And if you're determined to publish and getting rejected time and again you should consider it. If you don't add it to the bottom of your list of goals, and you spend year after year simply going through the motions of submitting and being rejected without any real idea of why, then you have to ask yourself as an author, are you really so dedicated to being published?

What's that definition of madness? Doing exactly the same thing again and again and again and expecting a different outcome.

Cheers, Greg.


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## The Dark One

psychotick said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> I also apologise for derailing the thread. My only point really in this is to point out that self publishing is a valid method of getting yourself published. (Not talking about quality here or any of those other issues - just about getting your work published.) And if you're determined to publish and getting rejected time and again you should consider it. If you don't add it to the bottom of your list of goals, and you spend year after year simply going through the motions of submitting and being rejected without any real idea of why, then you have to ask yourself as an author, are you really so dedicated to being published?
> 
> What's that definition of madness? Doing exactly the same thing again and again and again and expecting a different outcome.
> 
> Cheers, Greg.



All of this is entirely consistent with my points above. The only thing I'd add though is that after being rejected, I did NOT do the same thing again and again. I went out of my way to work out what I was doing wrong and my writing improved out of sight. The third book I completed (fifth book I started) was the first to be published. It took 15 years of effort to get to a publisher saying yes, and then another two years of editing before it went into production. That book didn't get huge sales but it certainly won some critical acclaim. Now my new book is winning accolades and selling well (even in the airports). I firmly believe that it was my persistence and determination to rise above (and learn from) rejection that got me to this place.

Having said all that, self-publishing was not the accepted and respected route that it is today. If I was just starting out now I've no doubt I'd be self-pubbing after a few rejections. And that would lead back to the old question: how do you know it's good enough when the industry has already told you it's not?

In fact, the industry is not telling you it's not good enough - they're saying they don't want to publish it. It still may be good enough to find an audience but how do you know? Unless you publish? The danger is that if the work has not been adequately refined to be of publishable quality you will damage your reputation.

It strikes me there's a business opportunity here. Someone, even Mythic Scribes, could set themselves up as a ms appraisal service (paid for) and give good feedback and a rating out of 10, where (say) 7 means publishable. Anything under 7 is effectively a rejection and people could learn from that and the feedback to improve their work. Once above 7 it could be published with the MS (or whoever) rating attached so that consumers would know they were buying something regarded as of good enough quality to be published, even though the mainstream had passed.


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## C Hollis

> It strikes me there's a business opportunity here. Someone, even Mythic Scribes, could set themselves up as a ms appraisal service (paid for) and give good feedback and a rating out of 10, where (say) 7 means publishable. Anything under 7 is effectively a rejection and people could learn from that and the feedback to improve their work. Once above 7 it could be published with the MS (or whoever) rating attached so that consumers would know they were buying something regarded as of good enough quality to be published, even though the mainstream had passed.



Sorry to continue the derailment, but this is a great idea for the indie world.  Rating a manuscript on its quality alone.  I have often felt that an indie novel needs some sort of stamp of approval for the readers sake.  As an author, I would be willing to drop a few bucks for something that could stop me from releasing garbage and maybe even get some hardcore, kick-in-the-mouth feedback.  On top of that, a stamp of approval has the potential to help sales.

Let's face it, a majority of rejections are based on whether an agent/publisher feels the manuscript is salable on a grand scale.  And a lot of us don't give two shakes about mass appeal, we just have a story to tell.  But, none of us wants to publish garbage.

On the topic:
What held me back from publishing: confidence.  I can take rejection.  I welcome harsh criticism from my editors and beta readers.  There are very few stories I haven't finished.  I just lacked the confidence to throw my work out into the world.  And, quite honestly, confidence remains a bit of a speed bump for me, but it is no longer a road-block.


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## The Dark One

It is a good idea, isn't it. I might start a new thread in Publishing to discuss it properly.


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## Philip Overby

For those that have trouble finishing things, I have a question: How often do you finish anything? Are you interested in finishing your work or is it something that if it happens, it happens? I'm just curious in that regard. I oftentimes think finishing something is really more important that ever publishing it. Of course you can't do one without the other, but the sense of accomplishment I feel when I actually finish something is pretty good.


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## buyjupiter

Phil the Drill said:


> For those that have trouble finishing things, I have a question: How often do you finish anything? Are you interested in finishing your work or is it something that if it happens, it happens? I'm just curious in that regard. I oftentimes think finishing something is really more important that ever publishing it. Of course you can't do one without the other, but the sense of accomplishment I feel when I actually finish something is pretty good.



Once a week, I complete a flash fiction piece that sometimes gets added to the shelf of things to expand later when I get time. Once every other week I get a proper short story completed. I aim to increase that to one proper short story a week, which I'll revise after finishing then set aside for a week to revise again. Then I revise one more time and submit.

This week, though? It's been crazy good/productive despite a computer that is on its last legs and not being able to write anything beyond flash fiction since Monday. And now that I'm being forced to sit down and work on ideas with pen and paper, I have twenty-ish new ideas all lined up and ready to go. Which means, I should never gripe about not having anything to do ever again.

I've also submitted a piece, been rejected, fixed the piece and submitted it to a different market.

Finishing something is awesome. But the feeling I get when I submit something is even better. It's only then that I feel like a proper writer.


----------



## AnomanderRake

I hope to finish a complete novel by the end of 2014.


----------



## Androxine Vortex

honestly the real reason im not published yet is because I am a raging perfectionist and also kind of get lazy. yes I admit it.

But as most of you know, I said that I was putting in the towel when it came to trying to get published, or at least was stepping away from awhile. And honestly I am so very glad I did. I wanted to be an author ever since I was a child and love to write but the constant pressure of being published felt overwhelming to me because I didn't have much time to write and nothing I really wrote I was very proud of. I kind of had a fear of rejection.

So now I have the mentality of, "I don't care if I get published or not." Might sound very odd but it has really helped me when it comes to writting. I don't feel as pressured to make sure every word and every letter is perfect and presentable (not to be misinterpreted to mean I have become sloppy) I write my myself. I am my own audience and I also share my work and ideas with my girlfriend who loves my stories. 

When I said I was a perfectionist I really meant it. It took me well over 5 months to type 2 pages, only after deleting probably thousands of words (and time spent) and even after that I wasn't satisfied. I was writting with the mentality of trying to impress others. This might also sound kind of gloomy but I know i wont live on this Earth forever, so I felt like i was obsessing over this too much and was devoting way too much of my life to something that just simply wont last forever. Yes it might get published and yes it might be the best selling book in the world, but compare that second to eternity and it loses value. Again, not trying to sound insulting to those that spent lots of hard work on their books and novels, but as me being a Christian, I came to the realization that I was spending ever free second of my life stressing about my books which are just imagination after all. I realized that after I leave this world and move on, what are my stories going to matter? I know that might sound weird but oh well...

If I do ever publish anything it will probably be self publsihed but it is not a concern of mine to get published and get recognition for it. I just want to write because I enjoy it and have fun imagining things. What I was doing before was not fun and made me despise sitting down and writting. This new approach has brought great calmness to my mind and I feel like I can breathe when writting because I feel that now I am my only critic so I don't have to worry so much.

So yeah that was my 2:00am rant. Need to get to sleep now............


----------



## Damian

Im only half way through mine… I'm always halfway through… in a years time ill still be halfway through… the more i progress the more work needs to be done… I am unpublished but I will not try until I feel the book is ready. I feel it is another year away so I may have a different opinion then : )
Also a thought with writing as a laborious art form: its not like music or painting where you can release things more often… you have to spend a long, long time in studious solitude to get something done so its a lot of labor & in the end it could be fulfilling or go nowhere at all… who knows… ah, a writers life!


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## solas

gavintonks said:


> I have finished but I am still working as I want to be 110% that its my best


  I have to agree....I am done but not finished....editing and changing until I feel the story meets my expectations.  Now I know I am not writing a Pulitzer Prize work but where the market is saturated, I want it to stand out.


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## r.stubbs

because I am so o.c.d nothing is ever good enough for me and I am always rewriting everything


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## ValkyrieMist

1. I will finish something.

2. I will get it published by 2014.

3. Even if this isn't realistic, I will still try.

4. I'm tired of failing.

5. I will submit it to _(pretty much going to ignore the last part of this because I don't know the names of any places to which I would submit something yet...)_


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## Ghost

ValkyrieMist said:


> 2. I will get it published by *2014*.



Really? Haha

ETA: I misinterpreted that like "before" rather than "by the end of." Sorry.

Oh, welcome to the forum!


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## Fyle

gavintonks said:


> I have finished but I am still working as I want to be 110% that its my best



This sounds good, same here. 

It still has typos and needs technical fixes, punctuation etc. 

Just finished the last chapter today and i have a beta reader 75% through... moving along.. 

Good thread by the way.


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## spectre

I'm struggling with taking scenes I like and making them truly original. That is my big problem, it's slowing down the writing process. Typically I've been writing non-specific scenes to get something to come out, then trying to plan a chapter or two ahead. I'm only at the fourth chapter in planning. It's just a case of good old sloth for me.


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## stephenspower

@ValkyrieMist, go to the Submission Grinder, which is 10 times better than Duotrope ever was, and 100 times better than the Writers market. If you're just starting out, search for the non-paying venues for the genre you're writing in and start reading those sites to see what you have to beat. I mention the non-paying because they are probably your best bet. One of them, 365Tomorrows, pubd my first SF story, and everyday the site puts up another good story, all flash fiction. Tons of great ideas, and the forums are worth reading and joining. A lot of places are kind enough to offer feedback too. And subscribe where you can so they can keep going.

As for perfection, screw it, and I say that as a perfectionist. Make a story the best you can and send it out. If it's rejected, use the distance time has created to consider how to revise it, do so, and send it out again. Don't stop. My rule is, after a rejection a story has to go out within 24 hours if it's not being retired or revised or if I'm not waiting for a market to open up. This will force you to plan ahead what markets you'll send a story too (have 3 lined up at a time), which will also force you to examine those markets to see what they publish as well as how your stuff stacks up. 

I would also recommend reading the venues that are SFWA qualifiers so you know what you'll ultimately have to beat. For instance, I read the Daily Science Fiction story every day when I get on the train before I start writing during the rest of the trip. 

We are in the golden age of flash fiction. Anyone can write a 750-1000 word short story in a week. Keep churning them out while you work on longer stuff, whether it's a novel or just a longer story. As Bradbury said, Write a story a week because over the course of a year that'll give you 52 stories, and no one can write 52 bad stories in a row.


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## D. Gray Warrior

I can't finish anything and I feel like I have all the time in the world.

I also don't know what kind of fantasy I want to write as all of them appeal to me in some way.


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## SugoiMe

I haven't published yet because I didn't get serious about writing until last year.  Then I met someone with the same interests as me and peer pressure led me to NaNo.  Now I suppose you could say that I'm not published yet because I'm planning on finishing a trilogy, an epic story that's been gnawing at me for the last seven or so years.

I also never seemed finished anything...until I finished the first draft of my first book.  Then I thought I might as well see this thing to the end since it's such a joy to work on.


----------



## cupiscent

I'm liking this thread. I like that it's about honesty, but that it's also about bringing us to our own goals - it's important to remember that being trad-published isn't necessarily what we need to be aiming for as writers (though it's what I'm aiming for).

I'm not published because (taking the feedback from agents here) my first novel isn't "breakout" material (doesn't hit enough high points, doesn't do enough or do it fast and exciting), and it has some thematic concerns (specifically, straying a little close to white-saviour). And I haven't finished a second yet, but I'm nearly there!


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## 2WayParadox

@gavintonks, do you have any resources for where you can find critters to submit to?

But the most important thing I would like to say here: READ THE WAR OF ART

http://philosophersnotes-samples.s3.amazonaws.com/pdf/the-war-of-art.pdf

I read it and not only is it well written, it resonated with me. Its message is twofold: you need to work hard and everything that keeps you from doing that is a part of Resistance, which you need to conquer every day.

I know I'm still at the start of my journey, but this book, I think it's going to be gold for me for many years. I want to use its message to build myself up as a writer, as a professional. Because the book talks about being a professional extensively, about what it means and what it takes. And in the end:



> There’s no mystery to turning pro. It’s a decision brought about by an act of will. We make up our minds to view ourselves as pros and we do it. Simple as that.


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## Caged Maiden

I'm sure I've posted here before, but I want to do so again.  *sigh* I need to grow a pair.  That's my problem.  I just can't put my work out there because I don't know what direction to go in.  Do I strike it alone and forge my own path, thoguh it will be bumpy?  Do I send submissions because my friends tell me that's the best way to gain exposure, with an agent by my side?  I'm just afraid to do the wrong thing, so I do nothing.  I edit and write...and I wait.


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## Philip Overby

I'm glad to see this thread revived somehow and I think my perspective on this topic has changed since I created it a while back. For me, I feel at this point in my life, publishing is going to start becoming a reality. One reason is because I feel comfortable enough in my own skin as a writer that I can produce as close to my vision as I care to. I can also see that it's time to let the floodgates open. I don't know if this means I'm doing things "too soon" but you can only really find out if you take the plunge. I know I'm going to get negative reviews, rejections, whatever, so that comes with the territory. I feel it's now or never. 

When I created the Mythic Scribes Blood Pact the idea was to have something published by 2014. Here it is, the end of 2014 and I have the best opportunity I've ever had to get my work in front of a major publisher. To me, that's a huge step from where I was two or three years ago. Am I nervous? Sure. Am I scared? Sure. But the time is now. 

2015. You're going to love me or hate me.


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## Caged Maiden

glad to see I'm not alone.  Phil, you and I are on the brink of this precipice together.  I'm still not sure I want to jump, but I'll be lonely if you jump and I stand staring.  Shall we do it together and throw our fates out into the world of the unknown?  We've talked about it and I wasn't ready, but I can see you are.  I'm down if you are.  Okay, yes, I'm ready.  I think.  Maybe.  

Okay, yes, definitely ready.  But... I would feel a whole lot better if you took my hand and sort of jumped with me.  That way neither of us has to watch the other splat on the edge of the world.  What do you say?  One...two... Oh gods of writing glory, I can't do it...


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## LWFlouisa

The best way I can understand it, is that I tend to consider the act of submission a treat in itself. Even if (possibly for good reason) my work ends up rejected.

There are a lot of short stories I end up trunking, because as a perfectionist I find my work often not matching what I see in my head, compared to what's actually written. Because at that point I'm interpreting it differently, possibly how a reader would be interpreting it.

So like if I write twenty stories, I might only submit three.


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## Rhizanthella

I have been writing for five years straight now (that's freshman year of high school for me), and I've finished the third draft of my series' first book. I'm reading to print it off and start editing. I... really hope that the golden glow of the publishing process (which I only ever read and spoken about) is finally in range. I've been planning to publish this series unknowingly since I finished the first book in 2010. Now... I'm on the final stretch. I see the light, but I'm terrified of the rocks between me and it. I want to make sure everything is perfect. 

That's why I'm not published yet. I know my children aren't ready yet. They just weren't ready for the big world. But now, one of them might be. Almost. This next year... 2015... It is so full of possibilities. I'm terrified of this unknown. But my natural instinct of a writer is curiosity. There is no way I could turn back and return to the Shire now. I'm going to walk into this mist and see what is to become of this journey. It's scary, but also exciting. 

*deep breath* I'm ready.


----------



## AndrewMelvin

While I would like to be trad published, I haven't gone down that route due to the timeframe involved. I've heard small publishers who said that they choose only five books a year, and if they chose mine it might be two years before it was published. I write so that people can read (and hopefully enjoy!) my work, and the idea of having to wait two years before the public can take a look really made me change my plans.


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## locofife

So far I am unpublished because I haven't actually submitted anything to anyone. It's also a possibility that my writing is absolutely awful and not worth much. (Though preliminary reviews have been positive.) I really just need to sit down and write. I keep thinking about it and never doing anything. This is the year I plan to make a serious effort at writing and possibly submitting a few short stories.


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## Ronald T.

I have no problem finishing a work, so I must assume my writing skill hasn't yet reached the level that's required for final acceptance into the realm of published authors.

If that's the case, I can only work harder at studying and practicing my craft.  Giving up isn't an option.


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## thedarknessrising

I'm not published because right now I'm not writing for the public. I'm basically writing Dungeons and Dragons modules in the form of novels for myself. Maybe one day I'll send them out for publication. I don't know yet.


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## Miskatonic

I have nothing ready to try and publish yet. Haven't had the pleasure of being rejected yet.


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## TheCatholicCrow

Hey ... is this too old of a thread to bump? ... Obviously if you haven't been published by 2014 yet that ship has sailed but how about we set a new date? .... like sometime in 2017?


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## Demesnedenoir

A good bump IMO... 2017 will be the first year I've a finished product I'd put my name on and send out for rejection (not including screenwriting). Technically, I have been published, it just wasn't paid nor was it fiction... hells, that was so long ago I forget what it even was, LOL. Seems like it had something to do with Chaucer, heh heh. But my writing had to get to a happy place before I'd finish anything, let alone submit. Delusional or not, I think I'm there!


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## Peat

I've yet to finish something I'm willing to consider submissible, either in the trad sense or to the public in the form of trade publishing. Hoping to break the duck this year.


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## skip.knox

I'll be submitting my novel, _Goblins at the Gates_ to agents and houses this summer. I'm about a fifth of the way through final edit. If I get nowhere by winter, I'll be self-publishing it. Of course, if it gets picked up, it'll be two years or more before it sees light of day.


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## spectre

skip.knox said:


> I'll be submitting my novel, _Goblins at the Gates_ to agents and houses this summer. I'm about a fifth of the way through final edit. If I get nowhere by winter, I'll be self-publishing it. Of course, if it gets picked up, it'll be two years or more before it sees light of day.


Good luck, congrats

Sent from my SM-G550T1 using Tapatalk


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## DragonOfTheAerie

Cuz I'm not ready yet and neither are my stories  

Look, I'm 16. I have plenty of time.


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## ThinkerX

I have two WIP series under way: 'Labyrinth' and 'Empire.'  

One thing I gleaned from writing the second book in each series was this:

'Don't publish the first book in a series unless you have a rough draft - or at least a good outline - of the last.'

Reason for that is changes in later books often require tweaking earlier books.  

Which is why I am sitting on a lot of rough drafts at the moment.


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## Michael K. Eidson

Like skip, I plan to submit my WIP to agents this summer. If I get nowhere, I'll self-publish, putting it up for pre-sale for maybe a year, during which time I'll be writing the sequel, which I would plan to put up for pre-sale at the same time the first book goes on sale.


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## ushKee

I am too lazy. :sluggish:


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## TheCatholicCrow

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Cuz I'm not ready yet and neither are my stories
> 
> Look, I'm 16. I have plenty of time.



Definitely no rush when you're under 20  In fact ... you might prefer to hold off until you're more confident in your craft (basically ... you'll know when the timing's right.)

I submitted a Flash Fiction piece to 2 online journals/ magazines - one pro, the other just getting started. I submitted at the beginning of submission season so I've been waiting months to hear back from the one, the other ended up going belly up.  

My goals for this year are to transition from ghostwriting novels for others to writing & (indie or self) publishing my own. Also ... I want to get more Flash & Shorts out there with my name on it. Thinking I might have better luck starting out in the unpaid markets and working my way up once I can establish a bit more credibility. Novel or short, I'm gonna get something published with my name on it this year, if it kills me (though hopefully it doesn't come down to that ... I prefer to live)


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## TheCrystallineEntity

I'm hoping to get my first fantasy novel published this year. Right now it's just sitting in my computer...for...reasons.


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## spectre

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> I'm hoping to get my first fantasy novel published this year. Right now it's just sitting in my computer...for...reasons.


Hmmmmm......What kind of reasons? 

Sent from my SM-G550T1 using Tapatalk


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## TheCrystallineEntity

It's mainly procrastination and an unwillingness to let my story go out into the world, like sending a kitten out into a blizzard.


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## Russ

skip.knox said:


> I'll be submitting my novel, _Goblins at the Gates_ to agents and houses this summer. I'm about a fifth of the way through final edit. If I get nowhere by winter, I'll be self-publishing it. Of course, if it gets picked up, it'll be two years or more before it sees light of day.



It's not quite that bad these days.  My wife sold her debut novel end of January last year, it is is stores now.


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## oenanthe

yep. Mine was acquired in the beginning of December and while I don't have a date, I expect early 2018.


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## writeshiek33

For i am only beginning  to write my wip and have my first book idea on the back burner as that one needs more thought. Plus being pure panster by nature and having dyslexia it takes me more time to get ideas out of my head. 


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## Deleted member 4265

Because I can't ever seem to decide on the plot. I can get it to work and all make sense and just as the last piece is falling into place I realize I just don't like it and I have to dismantle the whole thing again so I can fix it.


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## evolution_rex

I never finish things. Sometimes I build the skeleton and then give it muscle, but when it comes to the details of the skin, I just can't decide what to do. When I get too detailed I start to see things I need to change. I end up ripping the skin off and reworking the organs, but by then everything is a total mess so I push it back in disgust and work on something else until I push that one in disgust.


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## Annoyingkid

Because I want everything done first. I don't want to create one novel, pubish, then start on the next because once it's out there you can no longer edit. I want my trilogy to be as cohesive as possible.


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## Chessie

Annoyingkid said:


> Because I want everything done first. I don't want to create one novel, pubish, then start on the next because once it's out there you can no longer edit. I want my trilogy to be as cohesive as possible.


I really wish I would've done this. There's a lot to do after a book is published to help it get noticed by the right readers. It's tough to juggle that with more writing.


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## TheCrystallineEntity

I've been trying so hard to make my first book stand-alone. It's not working--it's far too interesting a world. Now I'm reworking my second book to fit in with the first, and it's a total mess. I'm not sure what to do now.


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## Christopher Michael

Because the story I _was_ working on wasn't working. On any level. So I trunked it and am starting on one I think _will_ work.


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## kdl121

It's a not a question of why am I not published yet ... it's a question of why cant I finish one book? Just one! I don't even think I need to get published at this point, I just want to finish one and say "Here, I did it, I achieved my life's goal! ... and then if it's good enough maybe I will publish it, lol


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## GypsyTraveller

my world building is just for fun, for now.


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## DragonOfTheAerie

Because my current book is a tangled mess of word vomit right now and the other books are in my head and won't come out.


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## pmmg

I did actually manage to get one thing published, but for the most part, I am just too lazy. Writing the tales is one half of the equation, finding places to submit and learning the market is another. I find I only have so much energy to spend, and I would rather spend it, presently, on creating more stuff.


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## Tort76

Maybe I can't find the right agent to buy my book.  Completed, I love it, but may just not be enough to entice another. 


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## Seira

Well, for me it's simply that I haven't pursued it because I'm fairly new to the craft. I've always wanted to try creative writing, even if just for fun but life kind of got in the way. I was a carer for my Dad and he died 2 months ago and i've been a bit lost ever since having to learn how to cope totally on my own. But I do remember at the hospital he told me to do everything I wanted to do. Because he did and had no regrets.


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## Lisselle

Seira, I'm so sorry. I've also lost my parents, and learning to go forward is painful and difficult. I hope you have support.
Writing should help; lose yourself in your World. When my parents died I was at Art School, and my art reflected my grief and anger. It was very powerful to work on back then, and I love it now because it's a part of my 'journey'. I hope you can use you craft to help you through this difficult time.


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## Lisselle

I'm not published because... I'm a perfectionist and I write and re-write and edit and edit and edit.
I'm also a coward, and am possibly arrogant because I love my books so much and they are truly everything I have EVER wanted to read, so how will I handle the soul-tearing experience of rejection? (By saying this I don't mean I think they are literary brilliance, or even very good, but I love the story and the people and the World.) I'd rather edit and edit again and again. 

I still have work to do, yet how will I know when they are finished? I'll always find fault, there will always be ugly words I need to remove, or repetitive words. And I'll always discover a new/ old mistake I have been making which I need to address. There will always be story lines to consolidate, and  characters to develop. Tying three large books together is a meticulous process, and I cannot miss anything. I need to check and double check everything to make sure it's all cohesive, and consolidated completely so they are the solid foundation for the next three books.

It's been eight years since I finished my first draft, one day I have to let my Books go. Maybe this year.


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## RedAngel

I am not published yet because I have not been completely serious about writing until recently (past 6 months)

2: I put too many eggs into too many egg baskets with my leisure time. I was writing 5 books at the same time.

3: The things I wrote in the past were terribad!

4: My pantser ways were leading me towards outcomes I did not expect or want before I discovered fire! (I mean outlines)

5: My characters were uninteresting as I did not fully understand human nature as much as I thought I did.

6: I learned show and tell isn't just for kids.

7: I always feel things could be so much better and spend a considerable amount of time overanalizing what I have written.

8: My writing routine consisted of writing quickly and not anything of real substance.

9: And last but not least I was afraid of critisim. Mainly because my works were rough and unpolished amonsts a group of friends who were not particularly keep on fantasy novels to begin with and friends who said it was great when it really wasn't


But now I see the light and the error of my terrible writing habits. I have spent quite a large amount of time these past few months about the art of writing and actually researching properly and getting my 2 novels (instead of ten) actually written properly this time drawing from the lessons I learned so that I might actually have a chance to publish in the forseeable future.

I aim for 2500 words a day now before I even think about editing previous chapters. I then watch videos and read books again. Not just for fun but to actually see what the writer is doing behind the words they so carefully use.


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## lonelyboy1977

*Be Honest: Why are you Really Not Published Yet?*

Honestly, it boils down to just two things...



I only decided at the start of 2014 to take my writing beyond being just a hobby.

(Until very recently) my perfectionism always prevented me from completing a full length novel.

Fortunately, thanks to the self-publishing revolution that has taken place over the past decade, my debut novel goes on sale this coming week, so I will finally be able to lay claim to being a published author.


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## A. E. Lowan

We finally did publish... in April of this year! And much to our surprise (and I'm sure the surprise of you who know us) we went indie, and we couldn't be happier. Now we're working on book two of our series and planning to release it in February.


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## Rkcapps

Congratulations! Quite an accomplishment! Can I ask, what's indie?


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## A. E. Lowan

Rkcapps said:


> Congratulations! Quite an accomplishment! Can I ask, what's indie?



Indie is basically self-publishing, short for "independent," as opposed to traditional publishing where a writer (or writers, in our case) are published through a publishing house. The industry is changing, and there is now more than one viable path to publication. It's very exciting!


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## Reaver

TheCatholicCrow said:


> Hey ... is this too old of a thread to bump? ... Obviously if you haven't been published by 2014 yet that ship has sailed but how about we set a new date? .... like sometime in 2017?



Thanks for bringing back this thread.


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## JonSnow

1. Its been 15 years and after dozens of re-writes, wholesale changes, and start-overs, its still not finished. Until it's finished, none of the other reasons matter.


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## Rkcapps

I hear you, Jon Snow!


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## kinslayeur

I finished the first book and feel very fortunate as this is my first attempt at writing fantasy. I've written military fiction prior and a friend suggested I submit it to a very specific publisher. Doing some research I did and I am now looking at a contract. I have yet to sign it until my attorney is able to look it over, but if all goes well, I will have a publisher for my fantasy series. Thankful and know the struggle is real. My military fiction series I never found a publisher for. I spent 2 years looking and sent out over 70 queries and received 67 rejections, 3 no responses. But, I never gave up. I ended up self-publishing the first two in my series. 

Chin up and keep working on it. You can do it!


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## Antaus

Why am I not published? Probably because I've never taken any professional writing classes.


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## Ronald T.

Hollo. A. E. Lowan.  When you say we, who is the other person (or persons involved?  Just wondering.


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## Ronald T.

Ronald T. said:


> I have no problem finishing a work, so I must assume my writing skill hasn't yet reached the level that's required for final acceptance into the realm of published authors.
> 
> If that's the case, I can only work harder at studying and practicing my craft.  Giving up isn't an option.



As I said, giving up wasn't an option.  So I did my home work:  I studied, I listened to beta readers, I edited again and again, and I refined the work to my utmost capacity.  And although I gave up on traditional publishing along time ago, I now have two e-books published on Amazon, and number three is in the final editing stages. I did my best with the knowledge and ability I had at the time, and I think I did a fairly good job.  But that's for others to decide.  I only hope my writing skill continues to improve with hard work and experience.  If my determination to increase my skill level has any effect on my talent, it will grow with each book I write.  Experience helps, but an endless, focused desire to improve is an absolute necessity in gaining the skill required to make each book even more powerful and exciting.  So I'll continue to learn as I write, and hope my efforts show in the final works.  

If you are interested, my epic-fantasy series is called "The Blood-Rune Saga".

Book one is, THE UNNAMED RUNE.  
The Unnamed Rune: Fate stained him with the mark of doom...Destiny endowed him with the power to prevail (The Blood-Rune Saga Book 1) - Kindle edition by Ronald Taylor Smith. Literature & Fiction Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.)

Book two is, A DIRE ONUS. 
A Dire Onus: Fate stained him with the mark of doom...Destiny endowed him with the power to prevail (The Blood-Rune Saga Book 2) - Kindle edition by Ronald Taylor Smith. Literature & Fiction Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com. 

Also, you can search here, at the UK link. 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dpB06XZBCMKV/?tag=brite-21

And coming soon, book three will be called, A SECRECY OF ASSASSINS.

As always, all my best to you and yours.


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## Aurora

Getting published is a big deal to me, one of my biggest dreams. Right now I'm still working on improving my prose and such. Hopefully these forums will help in that as I'd like to get better. One day, i'll go for it.


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## ArbridanianQueen

I'm not published yet because I'm still in edits. Thanks to a hard drive crash (and subsequent broken heart over having lost everything), I only started trying to write my world over again about five years ago. Add in trying to write other stories, college life, job hunts, a bout of depression (including meds that made my creativity go in the toilet) and various family health crap, it's taken me that long to get to the 3rd draft. Thankfully I think it's almost ready for beta readers, and I'm hoping to query by the end of the year.


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## Zephon

I still can't get my ideas on paper. This is laziness and lack of practice. I think many people like the _idea_ of being a writer, but they hate being a writer. 

When I was younger, I thought I loved writing. Looking back though, I don't think I actually did, I just liked having a story that I created- the actual writing part was not that fun. I'm just trying to learn and garner the discipline to write.


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