# A chemistry question



## Caged Maiden (Dec 30, 2012)

In my novel, I have mages, who practice a sort of combination between true magic (using one's own energy to create a supernatural reaction, like lifting an object or igniting a piece of paper), and science.  

In one scene, I am having my character attend a fire festival, where the whole town turns up to watch fire displays and while some of them will of course be true magic, most mages in my world are not powerful enough to do anything large-scale, and the ones who are.. let's just say, they're doing more important things.  That'd be like asking Gandalf to come do card tricks at your six-year-old's birthday, or asking Bill Gates to come show your grandmother how to work her email.  

SO anyways, I was looking for ways to do these fire displays (not too detailed, just a few simple explanations of how they're lighting the town up for one night) and I settled on using naturally occurring things like sulfur.  Now, I did a wikipedia search, and I found that some aspects of dabbling with sulfur can be harmful, but in its natural state, it's non-toxic and actually essential to all life.  

SO my question would be to those of you who can save me some time, (because I never took chemistry) how might I use some naturally occurring things, be they elements or something from the animal or plant kingdoms to aid my mages, who may not be strong enough to create a sustained flame, but could certainly ignite flammable materials, to great effect?


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## ThinkerX (Dec 31, 2012)

I do have something similiar in my world if it helps:

A mage can create a flame or a spark...but even for the most powerful, a classic 'fireball' is out of the question.  My solution was to have the (military) ignite sealed containers filled with flamable gases, kerosene fumes or something similiar.

Apart from that - copper sulfate placed in a flame burns green. (Copper sulfate would be found in an engravers / fine metal working shop.

Suggestion: as this is an entirely separate fantasy world, create a plant - maybe a lichen or mushroom - which combined with something else - a simple acid or some such, produces the reaction your after.  Solve your problem by adding a unique touch and a bit of depth to your world.  "Ok, Sam, the mages will only take the mushrooms harvested in the next three nights.  And remember - we're looking for the ones with the blue spots.  Blue! Not green, not black."


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 31, 2012)

Yeah, I could do that, but this is literally, just in one scene.  That's why I thought of the sulfur, an abundant natural resource, easy to mine, easy to purchase.  I didn't want to go with gunpowder, because in my world, that doesn't appear on this continent for about 200 years.  

I just am wondering from a chemistry standpoint, whether sulfur could be used for this purpose, for a fiery display, rather than reinventing something new.  I'd be interested in any other chemical readily available in nature, but I want to be careful to not use something that would, say, produce a toxic cloud or cause some other damage.  This is a yearly festival, where the whole town is literally ablaze, bonfires in every front yard, square and street.  People have pine torches and dancers and acrobats spin fire, jump through blazing hoops.  I don't want anything terribly complicated, but I'm not sure the mechanics of how medieval technology can accomplish all I want to show.  So that's what I need a better understanding of.

I liked the idea of someone using a harmless substance to help with the grand displays, using magic to ignite it, but not maintain a sustained fire with magic alone.  It literally is mentioned in one line.  "What;s that smell?"  "Sulfur.  They use it for those displays..."

SO you see, I don't want to reinvent the wheel, I just want to make sure my concept is feasible.


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## CupofJoe (Dec 31, 2012)

The Chinese made "fireworks" using honey and red sulfur [Cinnabar] and probably charcoal. From what I've seen that when heated it produced a flash and a bang [and a lot of smoke] but wasn't an explosive. Metals like copper and iron if ground fine enough will colour a flame as they burn.
I've just found a couple of pages about flame colours and coloured fire. I didn't know you could buy campfire colourers...
I'd be worried about anyone's long term use of Cinnabar (a sulphide of mercury) or Galena (lead sulphide).


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## Addison (Dec 31, 2012)

Flint and steel makes a spark. Rubbing sticks together. 
If you really want to get scientific with fire (colors and smells and stuff) Then you need, if memory serves, several metal rods (like Popsicle sticks) with one end dipped in a chemical. Chlorine burns.....blue or yellow and had a weird smell. 

For more information, ask a local high school or college chemistry teacher.


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## Penpilot (Dec 31, 2012)

There's a really simple chemical reaction between Alkali metals and water. The reaction created, depending on the metal, produces flame and in some instances violent eruptions. If your mages could just control and extend these reactions, it could work towards what you're trying to achieve. Here's a youtube video showing you the various reactions. See if it fits. Alkali metals in water, accurate! - YouTube


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## The Writer's Realms (Dec 31, 2012)

Non-dairy coffee creamer, when suspended in the air, is very flammable and explosive. When ignited, the dust will yield huge plumes of flames. The same goes for all grain dust. Tree pitch and animal fats were also used as primary fuels back in the day. Hope I helped some!


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## Addison (Jan 2, 2013)

...how would one discover that non-dairy coffee creamer is flammable in a specific state?


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## The Writer's Realms (Jan 2, 2013)

Chemistry 101 and Bunsen burners! Non-dairy coffee creamer is pretty much just plant fats a.k.a. grain dust.


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## ascanius (Jan 4, 2013)

The Writer's Realms makes a good point.  almost any dust, not dirt dust, can catch a flame.  If memory serves having a flame near a flour mill could and was disastrous.  Flour could easily be used for this add in certain metals to change the colors and what not.  Could also make black powder with charcoal, saltpeter, and sulfur.


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## CupofJoe (Jan 5, 2013)

ascanius said:


> ...  almost any dust, not dirt dust, can catch a flame...


My father grew up in a major port city and he mentioned that in the 1930s and 40s, grain and flour ships were unloaded at specialist docks to minimise the risk of explosion and to limit its effect when it happened. He can remember at least once where an explosion in a hold killed fathers of his school mates.


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## psychotick (Jan 5, 2013)

Hi,

In order for combustion to occur you need three things. You need a fuel source, i.e. something that will burn. You need an oxident, which in most cases is oxygen. And you need a spark. Then in order to make an explosion, you need a fourth thing, some sort of containment system such that when the fuel is ignited it expands rapidly through space. You can get around this last by using explosives that expand so quickly as they ignite that the resistence against them from simple air pressure creates enough back pressure to make an explosion. Fuel air explosives and gas explosions work in this way.

Now to make something explode really well, you need the right ratios of air and fuel and of course really good mixing. Flour will actually burn (mostly it just chars) but in general will not explode, simply because under normal circumstances the flour is clumped together with not much air mixed in. Dusts of flour on the other hand, explode beautifully, because the tiny particles of flour are dispersed through the air, which gives a great combustion reaction. And flour mills explode because the mill itself acts as a barrier to the expansion of the exploding flour, so it holds back the explosion until the overpressure of the combustion caused by increased gas volumes released by the combustion process, rips the mill apart. The same is true of saw mills. Saw dust is highly combustable, but a log of wood is hard to even ignite and then burns only slowly.

Now for your mages I'd suggest that while they can't manufacture explosions they can do sparks at a distance. Things that they can ignite with sparks might have to be prepared in advance, like fire works. Some forms of sulphur will burn, however in order to make a better burn I'd suggest mixing the powdered sulphur with powdered graphite. But also remember gases can be ignited quite spectacularly. So maybe some sort of concentrated alcohol compound warmed slightly so that it gives off vapour will make a nice little explosion. Benzene would be even better.

Oh and if you want a really, really big explosion I'd suggest googling BLEVE - Boiling liquid, expanding vapour explosion.

Cheers, Greg.


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## SeverinR (Jan 7, 2013)

If I remember correctly, the AD&D fireball did involve a molded missle that the mage sends towards the enemy and it erupts into a large ball of fire. So it would be a combination of materials and magic.


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