# How many is to many?



## C.B. Jones (Jul 8, 2012)

I have a question. In my novel there are fifteen character prospective's. I'm only on chapter 6 and already have two hundred pages done without telling the entire story i wanted to tell in book one. Is that to much?


----------



## Androxine Vortex (Jul 8, 2012)

That's a lot of perspectives. I for one enjoy getting different angles on the story but I think that fifteen might be too much. your readers might feel overwhelmed and I think that it would be better to cut that number down, that way you can connect with the characters better instead of having to constantly adapt to new ones.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 8, 2012)

C.B. Jones said:
			
		

> I have a question. In my novel there are fifteen character prospective's. I'm only on chapter 6 and already have two hundred pages done without telling the entire story i wanted to tell in book one. Is that to much?



Well it's ultimately up to you. However, if this is your 1st novel then it's likely too much. 15 POVs is a ton unless it's an epic tale spread out over a series of books.

As far as the number of pages & chapters are concerned, it depends. You're better off thinking in terms of total word count for your first book. Aim for a range of 80-120k. 

There's lots of posts on word count if you'd like to know why. Basically though, it's all about production costs involved when taking on a new writer. A new writer is a risk.


----------



## C.B. Jones (Jul 8, 2012)

It is a epic tale I wanted to tell in 8 books.And without the 15 main's a lot of the story wont be known to the readers. Is that OK?


----------



## C.B. Jones (Jul 8, 2012)

Thanks for the advice. It is a lot of angles since none of the characters are in the same place.


----------



## Hap818 (Jul 8, 2012)

Just try and shorten them down. Each book can have 15 chapters and just try to limit the size of each chapter so it isn't so long.


----------



## C.B. Jones (Jul 8, 2012)

i know it's going to be HUGH!!! But I didn't want the first book so long. If I cut it down it will be more books.


----------



## Hap818 (Jul 8, 2012)

Maybe you could have 15 books with 15 chapters each


----------



## C.B. Jones (Jul 8, 2012)

Ha ha ha nice suggestion, but with ever book people die and other's rise.


----------



## Benjamin Clayborne (Jul 9, 2012)

Let's put it this way: _A Game of Thrones_ is 293,000 words (nearly 1,000 pages printed) and contains *nine* POV characters.

It should be fairly obvious that you should not try to out-do _A Game of Thrones_ with your first novel.


----------



## Kit (Jul 9, 2012)

9 POV's in GOT? That can't be right. I count more than that on my fingers without even thinking hard. Of course there were several new POV's in the newest book, and a couple of POV characters have kicked the bucket.


----------



## Benjamin Clayborne (Jul 9, 2012)

Kit said:


> 9 POV's in GOT? That can't be right. I count more than that on my fingers without even thinking hard. Of course there were several new POV's in the newest book, and a couple of POV characters have kicked the bucket.



There are nine POV characters in _A Game of Thrones_, where _A Game of Thrones_ is the first book in the series _A Song of Ice and Fire_. ASOIAF has way more than 9 POVs overall, but book 1 (AGoT) only has nine (including the prologue, and that guy only has one chapter, so really there's only 8 major POVs in book 1): Will (prologue), Eddard, Catelyn, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Jon, Tyrion, and Daenerys.

The TV show is "Game of Thrones," book 1 is _*A* Game of Thrones_.


----------



## Kit (Jul 9, 2012)

Ah, I see. Thank you for clearing that up for me.


----------



## JonSnow (Jul 10, 2012)

So I've done some research on this subject as I've started a new re-write of my own novel. I've looked at a number of different authors' fantasy novels, to get a feel for how many words per page, and how many perspectives they use. Some, like Terry Brooks, don't use a lot of different perspectives at all. But Song of Ice and Fire uses a lot. 

I wouldn't suggest anyone using as many perspectives as George R.R. Martin (he ranges between 8-10 the entire series, as characters emerge and die). For instance, you lose Eddard at the end of GoT, but gain Jaime in Storm of Swords. But even with 9 perspectives, the sheer number of characters, subplots, and peripheral people is STAGGERING and overwhelming to read. I finished Game of Thrones and felt like I only absorbed half the book because there was so much. 

I settled on 4 perspectives for mine, and some of them won't start until the middle of book 1. Even that is going to be plenty, I think. 

In terms of page/chapter/book length, I think you need to at least do 400 pages if you want your book to be anywhere near average publishable length. For epic tales like GoT or Wizard's First Rule (Goodkind), these can easily rival 1,000 pages. For shorter books, like some Terry Brooks, Dragonlance, etc, you still probably want to be in the 400-500 page range at about 400 words per page. That means that an "average" fantasy book length is about 16,000-20,000 words.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 10, 2012)

JonSnow said:
			
		

> That means that an "average" fantasy book length is about 16,000-20,000 words.



He meant 160-200k words. I won't disagree but as has been mentioned in several posts, a 1st time author wanting to go the traditional publishing route should probably stay in the 80-125k range.


----------



## JonSnow (Jul 10, 2012)

My math was obviously fuzzy. I missed a zero...400-500 pages at 400 words per page would be 160- 200,000


----------



## Penpilot (Jul 10, 2012)

FYI. There's one more complication to think about. Each POV character adds to the complexity of relationships in the story. If they interact with one another, there has to be a relationship established, progressed and weaved together with the other POVs. 

If I'm doing my math correctly, for 9 POV characters that interact with one another, there are 36 relationships that must be established and developed. For 15 POVs, there are a possible 105 relationships to establish and develop. This isn't even counting the secondary characters. This is a huge thing to undertake.

Please don't take this as discouragement because if you think you need 15 POVs to tell the story you want to tell then you need them. This is just to give you a metric on what you're dealing with and to say really make sure you need that many POVs because you could be making things more difficult than they need be.


----------



## Fluffypoodel (Jul 11, 2012)

I agree with Pen Pilot. the more pov characters that you have the more relationships you need to back up. I'm working with 8 pov characters in my novel but they are seperated for most of the book, although they do know one another (for the most part) I don't think that I could start a book at double that but then again I know that I cannot write the book that I am writing with any less than 8. I would suggest knowing your characters before you start writing seriously about them. if you decide that you don't like a character 400 pages into the novel and decide to remove him/her then that is a lot of editing. I wish you luck though and if you need those 15 characters then pound away at it! leave George Martin in the dust!


----------



## Benjamin Clayborne (Jul 11, 2012)

Penpilot said:


> FYI. There's one more complication to think about. Each POV character adds to the complexity of relationships in the story. If they interact with one another, there has to be a relationship established, progressed and weaved together with the other POVs.
> 
> If I'm doing my math correctly, for 9 POV characters that interact with one another, there are 36 relationships that must be established and developed. For 15 POVs, there are a possible 105 relationships to establish and develop. This isn't even counting the secondary characters. This is a huge thing to undertake.



Only if they all interact directly. Jon Snow doesn't interact directly with most of the other characters (some in the first part of book 1, and then a couple chapters near the end of book 3, and a few in book 5). Daenerys doesn't interact with any other POV characters until book 5.

Yeah, theoretically the number gets large, but that's an upper bound. In practice it's going to be lower unless all 15 characters are all travelling together.


----------



## Twilight Goblin (Jul 11, 2012)

C.B. Jones said:


> I have a question. In my novel there are fifteen character prospective's. I'm only on chapter 6 and already have two hundred pages done without telling the entire story i wanted to tell in book one. Is that to much?



That is a lot of characters! The most I would say to use (And this is just a personal opinion) is about seven. That way, when I write the story, I don't have a lot of scrambling about who's who. With that many characters, I would break the story up into different parts, or split the characters up and write seperate stories about all of them.


----------



## Shanatos (Jul 11, 2012)

My thought isn't necessarily having too many perspectives, but splitting the action too much. 

Like, is each of these characters having their own different sub-plot? That's where it gets too complicated. But if you have one event happening, but shift the POV to many different characters following the same action, that is less problematic.


----------



## Kit (Jul 11, 2012)

Shanatos said:


> But if you have one event happening, but shift the POV to many different characters following the same action, that is less problematic.



I like it when you get to see the same event from more than one character's view, especially if it means you 1)get additional pieces of the picture, or 2)the interpretation of what is seen is totally different.


----------



## kjboe (Jul 11, 2012)

I am writing my first novel, I'm only having 3 main characters in it. But look at all those novels out there, bloody mental amounts of characters in some of them. go for it.


----------



## JonSnow (Jul 11, 2012)

kjboe said:


> I am writing my first novel, I'm only having 3 main characters in it. But look at all those novels out there, bloody mental amounts of characters in some of them. go for it.



Well, it also depends on the experience and ability of the writer. For me, 4 points of view and about 12-15 integral characters (with more peripheral/minor characters) is about all I can organize in my own head. Maybe some writers can juggle more. There are two keys: first, can you keep that many perspectives coherent for the reader? second, do the added perspectives offer additional insights into the plot, or do they just bog it down?  If they have purpose, and they are clear, then there is no reason not to try. Its all about style... if all authors wrote the same way, reading would get boring in a hurry.  That's why I am generally not in favor of concrete, unbreakable writing rules.


----------



## ShortHair (Jul 11, 2012)

C.B. Jones said:


> I have a question. In my novel there are fifteen character prospective's. I'm only on chapter 6 and already have two hundred pages done without telling the entire story i wanted to tell in book one. Is that to much?



My personal, subjective reaction is that that is too many. Material gets left out of every book, and if it overcomplicates the story, it should.

If your book becomes popular, you can always come back and tell the same story from those other POVs. If it doesn't, there's not much point.


----------



## Penpilot (Jul 11, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Yeah, theoretically the number gets large, but that's an upper bound. In practice it's going to be lower unless all 15 characters are all travelling together.



True enough. Yes, if they don't interact with one another at all, it simplifies things quite a bit. But I'd add indirect interaction still counts as a relationship that must be established. If character A and B are a Generals commanding their respective army from miles away, and never meet physically, there's still a relationship there. Also lovers separated forever by thousands of miles have a relationship linking them too. It isn't always about physical proximity, mental proximity plays the most important role in determining the complexity of the relationship. 

In a multi-pov story, a POV character tells part of a story and their parts must fit together with the other POV's parts to form a whole. So they must touch at least briefly, even if it's just at the end where everything comes together. That meeting of POVs must be set up, so there's a relationship that must be established. The results of that meeting maybe simple to deal with, or the may be complex. Depending on which, the story complexity will increase. That's the way I see things.


----------



## C.B. Jones (Aug 6, 2012)

ya I've been re-working my book these past weeks and settled  with six.


----------



## FireBird (Aug 7, 2012)

I think that there is really nothing wrong with multiple viewpoints in itself, but there are so many problems to deal with that going over 5 or 6 really starts to get difficult. First you have to keep the readers attention, which means you have to find a way to introduce all of the characters in an equally interesting fasion. Martin did this by having all the viewpoint characters minus one in one place at the beginning of the book. I hate it when readers are introduced to a great character and then the next viewpoint is medicore compared to the previous one.
Second you have word count to deal with. Most publishers will not accept over 100k or 120k for a new author. All of Martin's novels are well over what, 300k? You don't have many words to get your readers to care about many characters. 
These are just a few of the problems I can think of right now. Most of them probably have a good solution that I can't think of.


----------



## Aosto (Aug 9, 2012)

To many POV's is the exact reason I haven't finished reading 'A Song of Fire and Ice'. It's way to much for me, as a reader, to try to keep track of. I want to enjoy a book, but I feel like I have to keep notes to enjoy that series. If you can do it in a way that is seamless and easy to read then go for it.


----------

