# Writing Sword-Fighting?



## Devora

I've run into a dilemma in my writing.

I don't know how to write down a sword-fighting scene where one of the fighters (one of my MCs) is using a fighting style against an attacker.

The style i want to base it off of is Japanese sword-fighting style because I'm using the idea of basing the culture of Dark Elves in my story (which i actually call "Shadow Elves") off of Samurai Era of Japan.

Any advice or suggestions?

Also, even though I'm naming one style i would like the advice to be as if it were focused on other styles of sword-fighting as well.


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## Anders Ã„mting

You're being a bit vague and ambiguous here. Are you have trouble writing swordfights in general? Or is the problem describing that particular style? Only... you want the advice to be "as if" it was about other styles as well?


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## Butterfly

All I can suggest is take a look at how they move, strike, pause, prepare. Look at their facial expressions, their eyes and where they fix. How they evade blows, by spinning, leaping, tumbling away, etc. The sounds they make, growls, battle cries, grunts, etc. The sounds the weapons make when they clash against each other, or shield, or armour. Even, how the blood spurts and wounds open (depends on how detailed and gory you want it to be).

Make a list of words to describe these things so you know what you are trying to incorporate into your fight scenes.

Such as...

thrust, stab, slash, block, leapt, poised, stance, spun, evade, avoid, slide, skid, jarred, clanged, clashed, blade vibration, ring, pivot, teeter, tumble.

Also, choreograph the fight so you know where each character is, and where they can move. I've used simple things like circles on a bit of paper, counters you can slide around.

See what's on youtube to help you out.

Makai Tenshou 1981-Yagyu Jubei vs Tajima Nokami.mpg - YouTube

Samurai Fight Scene - YouTube


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## Nebuchadnezzar

This is one of the parts of fantasy writing I struggle with.  So much of what I want to describe, like sword fighting, archery, horseback riding, etc I either don't know how to do or have only a rank amateur's understanding.  I therefore find it difficult to write these scenes in a meaningful way and I'm sometimes left with nothing but the hope the reader is as ignorant as I am...

Butterfly's suggestions seem quite useful.  Maybe try to find some documentaries or videos about kendo or fencing?  Though I suppose the modern sport versions may not be that applicable to an actual fight.


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## Shaun b.

Check out Iaido. Japanese swords were not made for fighting. They were made solely for killing. If they were used like in kendo, they would be useless within minutes.


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## writeshiek33

from what i have heard conan barbarian movie(remake) used mixed mixture of martial arts and within the sword fights scenes to make them look more exciting


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## Butterfly

And... here's a blog, look for the posts under _*Fight Scenes*_. Might also help out.

Writers Don’t Cry : SeriousPixie


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## Devora

Anders Ã„mting said:


> You're being a bit vague and ambiguous here. Are you have trouble writing swordfights in general? Or is the problem describing that particular style? Only... you want the advice to be "as if" it was about other styles as well?



I guess just focus on the Japanese Technique then. The thing is is that i want to have the Sword-style and the culture of my Dark Elves to be similar to the Edo Period of Japan since my Dark Elf MC's role would be that of a Samurai.


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## Feo Takahari

I'll second the advice to try to find nonfiction works that discuss this fighting style. Styles can generally be boiled down to patterns of moves and responses ("So if he goes for an over-the-shoulder blow, drop to one knee and block from below . . ."), and if you learn those patterns, then incorporate variables like terrain and weapon quality, you can write a battle as a kind of dance.

(Note that this only works for characters who actually know how to fight--amateurs may just swing at random.)


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## Alex97

If you're aiming to replicate the Samurai's way of fighting try and research it in as many ways as possible.  I fence myself, but Kendo is probably one of the closest modern martial arts you'll get to Japanese sword fighting.  I'd recommend watching some Kendo videos on youtube.  Also take a look at some films: Last Samurai, 13 Assassins, 7 Samurai... They may not all be super accurate but at least you get a scenario where Samurai are fighting on a battlefield.  There's also a number of books on the matter and plenty of websites.

To me the Japanese way of sword fighting is more graceful than its European counterpart (not necessarily better or worse).  Samurai would fight with katanas and Diachi, Yari's and Naginata's (not sure spelling is correct).  Shields weren't used, so fighting was more about the manipulation of the sword/weapon as opposed to bashing an enemies armour with a longsword.  That's just my take anyway. I'm sure there's others on the forum with more knowledge.


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## Shaun b.

Samurai fighting was very exact and quick. lasting little longer than the opening blow. Imagine parrying a three foot razor blade?

Why not think up and name some moves that are descriptive in title and use those? I've seen a few writers do this quite effectively. Robert Jordan does it in WoT and I believe Rothfuss does something Similar.


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## Alex97

Shaun b. said:


> Samurai fighting was very exact and quick. lasting little longer than the opening blow.


That's true enough.  I've read of certain fights during a clan feud where one Samurai killed another in a single move from the unsheathing of the katana.  Might not be a very interesting fight to write about though.

Also forgot to mention that during battles the Samurai would seek each other out and fight one on one, so battles consisted of hundreds of duels.  Of course this would have varied immensely from battle to battle and the Ashigaru (peasants) fought in a more regimented style.


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## Nebuchadnezzar

> I guess just focus on the Japanese Technique then. The thing is is that i want to have the Sword-style and the culture of my Dark Elves to be similar to the Edo Period of Japan since my Dark Elf MC's role would be that of a Samurai.



I wonder...if the goal is to portray the Dark Elf MC's role as similar to that of a samurai, do you need to copy the Japanese sword style also?  

My impression of what makes a samurai is their position and behavior (i.e. warriors, often nobles, in a very status conscious, shame-and-honor based society, with a focus on loyalty and obligation to lord and family).  If depicting that position and behavior achieves the "samurai effect" you're looking for, you might be able to use any fighting style you feel comfortable writing(potentially avoiding some heavy research).

Obviously this short cut won't work if mirroring the samurai fighting style is an integral part of your vision.


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## Anders Ã„mting

Shaun b. said:


> Check out Iaido. Japanese swords were not made for fighting. They were made solely for killing. If they were used like in kendo, they would be useless within minutes.



This is _quite_ a generalization. It's true Japanese swords trade a bit of durability for added sharpness, so Japanese styles do tend to favor dodging over parries. But it's pretty silly to say Japanese swords can't be used in swordfighting. 

Iaido is a specialized draw-technique, and to some degree a visualization excercise. But it's not the entire fighting art in itself; The art of fighting with a Japanese sword is called kenjutsu and pretty much looks like this:






Note the way they try to kinda swat away the opponent's blade, bind rather than block, use the flat or back rather than the edge, and plain avoid blade contact when possible. They'll still parry when required, though, because katana are not _that _fragile and besides, a chipped blade is better than getting cut.

(Though, it should be mentioned that "kenjustu" just means "swordsmanship." The Japanese didn't have one single fighting style - different schools could have very different techniques and the important thing was that you didn't die.)


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## Alex97

I don't think Katanas are as flimsy as you make out. Despite the fact that they're not made for extensive bashing they would still have to cut through armour.   

I don't think it was Iaido, but there is a martial art based on fighting multiple opponents (Japanese sword style) with a similar name.

EDIT: Swords are going to vary extensively based on the maker as well.


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## Anders Ã„mting

Alex97 said:


> Also forgot to mention that during battles the Samurai would seek each other out and fight one on one, so battles consisted of hundreds of duels.



Well, they did this _before _the Mongol invasions, anyway. Turns out that didn't work too well against the Mongols: 



			
				Hachiman Gudōkun said:
			
		

> According to our manner of fighting we must first call out by name someone from the enemy ranks, and then attack in single combat. But the Mongols took no notice at all of such conventions. They rushed forward all together in a mass, grappling with any individuals they could catch and killing them.



Apparently this was also the first time the Japanese encountered battle cries, war drums and archers firing arrow rains rather than sniping at indiviuals.

The Mongols also forced the Japanese to redesign their swords a bit, because pre-invasion Japanese swords turned out to have some fairly fatal flaws against foreign armor technology.


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## Anders Ã„mting

Alex97 said:


> I don't think Katanas are as flimsy as you make out. Despite the fact that they're not made for extensive bashing they would still have to cut through armour.



Swords do not cut through armor at all, as a general thing. That's the whole reason you wear armor in the first place. I mean, the cheaper type of leather armor? Maybe. The fancy heavy iron armors? No way.



> EDIT: Swords are going to vary extensively based on the maker as well.



Well, in terms of quality, at least.


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## Devora

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> I wonder...if the goal is to portray the Dark Elf MC's role as similar to that of a samurai, do you need to copy the Japanese sword style also?
> 
> My impression of what makes a samurai is their position and behavior (i.e. warriors, often nobles, in a very status conscious, shame-and-honor based society, with a focus on loyalty and obligation to lord and family).  If depicting that position and behavior achieves the "samurai effect" you're looking for, you might be able to use any fighting style you feel comfortable writing(potentially avoiding some heavy research).
> 
> Obviously this short cut won't work if mirroring the samurai fighting style is an integral part of your vision.



I obviously will give him the mentality of a Samurai, but i also plan to have a few scenes where he has to fight. I'm just trying to paint an accurate picture of the character. I want it to be authentic as possible. From the Philosophy to the Armor, to the swords and weapons, and to the fighting styles which both former points will be integrated.

I'm trying to base the Dark Elves of my story of the Japanese during the Meiji and Edo Periods of history. I'm starting with the Samurai Class, then i would go to the royals, then down to the Peasants, and then find the relationship between all the class and the little nuances they have to show towards each other.


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## Alex97

Anders Ã„mting said:


> Swords do not cut through armor at all, as a general thing. That's the whole reason you wear armor in the first place. I mean, the cheaper type of leather armor? Maybe. The fancy heavy iron armors? No way.


Luckily for sword makers the Japanese relied mainly on leather armors - until the Europeans arrived anyway.

You make a fair point, however if you're swinging at a heavily armoured opponent, you're probably going to impact on his armour at some point, even if you are going at the exposed bits.  If you're sword breaks when it hits... well, it's not a very good sword.


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## Zero Angel

Shaun b. said:


> Check out Iaido. Japanese swords were not made for fighting. They were made solely for killing. If they were used like in kendo, they would be useless within minutes.



Nan desu ka?!

Anyway, I guess I agree with Anders on this one...AND ON A SWORDFIGHTING THREAD —quick, play the lottery!!


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## Devora

Is there any advice that i can get on how to write the movements of techniques without making the text Purple Prose?


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## Zero Angel

If by purple, you mean "elaborate", then yes. You don't have to describe everything for starters. I've given this advice before in fighting threads, but I always focus on the impacts in battle. I think of most of my fight scenes as "bam-bam-bam-bam-bam"

The hyphens representing the text to get from one bam to the next bam.

Although, to elaborate a little more, it's usually more like, "bam-bam-BAM-bam-BAMBAMBAM-bam-BAM......BAAAAAMMMMM"

Was that helpful?

Although my hyperactivity is off the charts presently, I meant it sincerely. With swordfighting involving katana specifically, there is a lot of build-up with a single definitive BAM. What about the short sword though? If possible, a samurai would not use a katana in close quarters fighting. That's what the entire idea of the daisho is. The samurai has their big sword and their little sword; to every blade, there is a reason.

Another Japanese inspiration you may want to consider is Miyamoto Musashi. He didn't limit himself to just katana, and in fact, he eventually felt that katana were too easy and from that point on fought with bokken. Anyway, his book, "Book of Five Rings" or "Go Rin No Sho" talks extensively about how he believes swordfighting should be done (how he does it), and is pretty standard reading in any study of martial arts, especially Japanese kenjutsu, and crossing over into philosophical realms with applications outside of swordfighting (similar to how the Art of War is). 

It's short too, go read it. Make sure to ruminate a lot. It's dense and Musashi encourages it.

Edit: Oh, oh, and arrows anyone? Why bother getting up close if you can kill from afar?


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## T.Allen.Smith

Devora said:


> Is there any advice that i can get on how to write the movements of techniques without making the text Purple Prose?



Make certain not to write about a fight as if your listing off moves.

Keep focus on the characters in the fight.

Physically act out any pieces of the fight that are difficult to conceptualize in print. It helps to piece the larger fight up this way, concentrating on the important parts through greater description.


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## wordwalker

A fight is about choices, same as any other scene. 


Whichever side is losing (or not winning fast enough, or... well, anything), starts having to choose how to respond: more aggression, deception, caution, what? 
Each choice has its plusses and minuses; if you can spell those out (or describe the choices so the reader can guess what they are), which one he takes says plenty about who he is.
And then, if that choice *doesn't work,* even more suspense!


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## FatCat

I think it depends on the length you want the fight to be. As mentioned above, swordfights can be ended swiftly, especially with the Japanese-style your mirroring. I'd say build up the anticipation, not the actual action; suspense in feints and silence. If it's a duel, I'd imagine a large part is psychological. The action can be extremely detailed, coupled with brevity. As long as you don't end up with a cinematic showcase lasting several paragraphs, you can detail specific maneuvers.


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## Jess A

Go and take some fencing lessons (remember there are different styles). If this costs too much get a friend to come and fight with you (as suggested above, acting it out helps considerably for some people. It helps me).

You might find sword fighting isn't quite like in the movies...and people fight dirty.


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## Zero Angel

Jess A said:


> Go and take some fencing lessons (remember there are different styles). If this costs too much get a friend to come and fight with you (as suggested above, acting it out helps considerably for some people. It helps me).
> 
> You might find sword fighting isn't quite like in the movies...and people fight dirty.



I haven't found much to agree with most people that fence...

Fencing is a very specific style that, although like every martial art can have its principles and theories adapted, tends to favor specific weapons and clothing.


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## Anders Ã„mting

Jess A said:


> Go and take some fencing lessons (remember there are different styles). If this costs too much get a friend to come and fight with you (as suggested above, acting it out helps considerably for some people. It helps me).
> 
> You might find sword fighting isn't quite like in the movies...and people fight dirty.



On the other hand, depending on exactly what you train, you might get the direct opposite impression. Different martial arts have different degrees of martial intent.

When I took kendo lessons, I was actually told to show my back to my opponent as long as possible after passing him, because the rules said he wasn't allowed to hit me there. In a real swordfight that would probably get you killed.  



Zero Angel said:


> I haven't found much to agree with most people that fence...
> 
> Fencing is a very specific style that, although like every martial art can have its principles and theories adapted, tends to favor specific weapons and clothing.



Well, pretty much _all _martial arts/combat sports use specific weapons and clothing.


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## Nebuchadnezzar

> On the other hand, depending on exactly what you train, you might get the direct opposite impression. Different martial arts have different degrees of martial intent.
> 
> When I took kendo lessons, I was actually told to show my back to my opponent as long as possible after passing him, because the rules said he wasn't allowed to hit me there. In a real swordfight that would probably get you killed.



This is one of the reasons that I have some doubts about using modern martial arts as a go-by for a fight scene.  The few times I've watched modern sport fencing, my impression is that combatants using those techniques in an actual fight would probably end up killing each other.  Kendo seemed to have similar issues.  All the weaponless fighting systems that I'm aware of have developed rules and practice methods so that when combatants spar they don't end up seriously injuring each other. 

All of which is completely sensible and IRL I wouldn't have it any other way -- no one wants to get killed at karate practice.  But it does pose problems for scenes where the characters really do want to kill each other...


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## T.Allen.Smith

I agree. There are a few exceptions.

First, martial arts do impart a physical understanding of kinesiology. This can be very helpful in keeping combat realistic.

Second, if you've ever been in a real fight or two (not the grade school playground variety) that experience on how fast & brutal they really are, is invaluable.

Third, there are martial systems where the brutality of combat is realistic. I did about 6 months at Randy Couture's UFC gym. Combat wresting, Jui-jitsu, Muay Thai...at the end of each hour long class, you had to fight 3 different people for 3 mins each. Alas, in my early 40s, even with a deep martial arts background...my body didn't react well. Injuries were constant. Hard to explain split lips, black eyes, and a perpetual limp as a working professional. Age has limits.

Anyway, there are ways to gain real experience. Short of that, my advice is to avoid over-description of combat unless it serves a purpose.  In that case, where you need vivid portrayals, go watch some UFC fights, go watch some videos on weapon fighting (not Olympic fencing). If you're going to write about something you see, try the sequence yourself. See if it is at least plausible. If it is...run with it.


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## Zero Angel

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> This is one of the reasons that I have some doubts about using modern martial arts as a go-by for a fight scene.  The few times I've watched modern sport fencing, my impression is that combatants using those techniques in an actual fight would probably end up killing each other.  Kendo seemed to have similar issues.  All the weaponless fighting systems that I'm aware of have developed rules and practice methods so that when combatants spar they don't end up seriously injuring each other.
> 
> All of which is completely sensible and IRL I wouldn't have it any other way -- no one wants to get killed at karate practice.  But it does pose problems for scenes where the characters really do want to kill each other...



In every martial arts class or group I've ever been in there was always the point where the instructor went, "Now if you were in a bar/street fight..." and explain what to do outside of legal competition.


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## Anders Ã„mting

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> This is one of the reasons that I have some doubts about using modern martial arts as a go-by for a fight scene.  The few times I've watched modern sport fencing, my impression is that combatants using those techniques in an actual fight would probably end up killing each other.  Kendo seemed to have similar issues.  All the weaponless fighting systems that I'm aware of have developed rules and practice methods so that when combatants spar they don't end up seriously injuring each other.
> 
> All of which is completely sensible and IRL I wouldn't have it any other way -- no one wants to get killed at karate practice.  But it does pose problems for scenes where the characters really do want to kill each other...



Well, like I said, the level of martial intent varies. HEMA reconstruction styles, for example, tend to be refreshingly relaxed about that sort of thing. At least in my experience, which went something like this:

*Kendo: *Spent several weeks of hitting air before the mere possibility of crossing swords with anyone was even hinted at. Despite the shinai being made of bamboo and relatively harmless, we were abolutely forbidden to spar without wearing the full set of armor. Since I could never afford an armor back then, I never got to spar.

*HEMA:* On our first day, the teacher spent a few minutes teaching us newcomers the basic guards. I was then handed a hard plastic sword, with the same weight and balance as the real thing, and was told to fight one of the regulars with only a fencing helmet for protection. It was _awesome._


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## Alex97

This might seem a bit odd, but check out Total War Shogun 2.  It's and RTS game based on the Sengoku period of Japan.  All the fighting both in game and in cinematic trailers was motion captured by martial artists.  Not sure how realistic it is but the Creative Assembly usually try and make their games as believable as possible.

If you're planning on doing any indoor fighting scenes with mid sized to small rooms it may be wise to go with a short sword (kodachi I think).


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## Jess A

On fencing and sword fighting for real: There are clubs (at least around me) who deal with older styles of sword fighting (not foil fencing etc). I just find it easier to act it out, then elaborate and research and do the necessary changes. Obviously you need to use imagination...not just basic 'modern techniques'.


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## Anders Ã„mting

Ã‰pÃ©e fencing actually isn't _that_ unrealistic in a technical sense, since it doesn't have a Right Of Way rule and allows hits on the entire body. The main problem is that the Ã©pÃ©e doesn't correspond well to any actual sword - most rapiers are too heavy, though there are some light transitional rapiers that supposedly works okay.

Foil would make sense as a smallsword style _if_ the rules were the same as with the Ã©pÃ©e, but stuff like Right Of Way and limited target areas, etc, makes it too formalized.

Saber, as I understand it, is kinda useless - far too removed from its origins to work with any real sword.


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## Alex97

Anders Ã„mting said:


> Ã‰pÃ©e fencing actually isn't that unrealistic in a technical sense


Any form of European fencing isn't going to be very useful as research for Japanese sword fighting.  Although I agree that Ã‰pÃ©e is the more realistic of the three standard styles.



Anders Ã„mting said:


> Saber, as I understand it, is kinda useless - far too removed from its origins to work with any real sword.


Reminds me of my fencing club.  All the new guys go with foil but fence like their using a saber.  Always fun fencing against someone who only knows how to slash


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## zizban

I am terrible at writing sword fighting scenes. I try to avoid them.


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## Anders Ã„mting

Alex97 said:


> Any form of European fencing isn't going to be very useful as research for Japanese sword fighting.



Yeah, I'm just drifting a bit.

To adress the actual subject: If I'd write a fighting style based on Japanese swordsmanship, I would put a lot of focus on range and timing, with shorter exchanges than I would use for something more western-ish. Who has the longer weapon, who is quicker to enter the other's maai* first, that sort of thing. 

Also, a style similar to kenjutsu implies that shields aren't widely used for some reason. That's more of a world-building thing, but it's still good to keep in mind.

*Basically, the range from which you can attack your opponent.


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## Nebuchadnezzar

This topic has made me curious -- can anyone suggest a published author(s) who writes a good sword fight (or hand to hand combat in general)?


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## Shaun b.

Rothfuss and Jordan, to my knowledge both wrote sword fighting in a similar fashion. Specifically named 'moves' and forms. I would personally say Rothfuss is worth looking at for the OP as the Adem (I believe that's what they are called) are a not a million miles away from eastern swordsmanship or culture. 

My favourite author Abbercrombie also has a very good way of pacing a fight scene, although his scenes always come across and more brutal and may I even say desperate.


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## Zero Angel

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> This topic has made me curious -- can anyone suggest a published author(s) who writes a good sword fight (or hand to hand combat in general)?



For all that I don't like reading Salvatore any more, he does a nice treatment of the fighting scenes and I think he captures the mentality of the fighter in the fight quite well. Anything with Drizz't, especially the middle to pre-Orc King material is very good for action.


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## wordwalker

Steven Barnes, the acknowledged grandmaster of martial arts in fiction. Especially his hand-to-hand scenes, but his weapon fights ain't bad either.

Salvatore, agreed. For a cinematic, lots-of-magic-mixed-with-the-footwork style that still makes sense.

Brandon Sanderson even moreso, not for the fighting exactly but for always knowing how to mix in his magic systems with them (and if there's a wrinkle in his magic that can help a character, you can bet he's just waiting for the moment to spring it).

Guy Gavriel Kay isn't too technically precise either, but he comes close enough and he always knows how to make a fight *feel* awesome.


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## Devora

Back to the original question: How do I write a sword fighting scene without being overly descriptive, and to do it accurately?


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## Nebuchadnezzar

If you're not going to be overly descriptive, I suspect it would be hard to do it inaccurately.

Although he's got flaws as an author (and apparently some real quirks as a human being), I've always loved the way John Norman did some of his battle scenes in the Gor novels.  Something on the order of:

_The soldiers shifted in front of me, watching my blade.  "I will bring glory to Ar!" screamed a fellow.  He was wrong.  I stepped back and waited for the next._

He did more detailed fights as well but sometimes those little one or two line fights really did the job.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Devora said:


> Back to the original question: How do I write a sword fighting scene without being overly descriptive, and to do it accurately?



You'd probably get farther by writing a fight scene & posting it on the showcase forum for people to critique. If you can keep it under 1,000 words I'd be happy to offer some advice.

These types of scenes can be handled in many different ways so it can be hard to point you in a direction that will work for your writing. It's much simpler, and more effective in my opinion, to work with something you've already written...in your vision & voice.


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