# Ask me about Law



## Frog (Aug 2, 2012)

I've been a practicing attorney since 2005.  I've been both prosecution and defense counsel, as well as the lead on more civil cases than I can conveniently count.  I am licensed in both Idaho and Washington state, and graduated magna cum laude from the University of Idaho Law School.

It might be just me, but a lot of modern fantasy ends up in a courtroom at some point.  If you've got any question on how things actually work in that environment, consider me a resource.

EDIT:  This is NOT a thread to ask me about your current divorce, your brother's DUI, or the copyright issue for your work.  Please refrain.  If you have an issue _in Idaho or Washington_ and want my honest advice, PM me.  This thread is intended as a resource for people attempting to work the law into their stories, not for me to publicly practice my trade for free.


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## Ireth (Aug 2, 2012)

I have a courtroom scene in one of my WIPs; the protagonists are arrested and tried by the Fair Folk. Given that this is pure fantasy, and the judge and jury are on a completely different moral scale than the human protagonists, how much realism should I go for?

To be more specific: the three humans, Vincent, Dom and Ariel, have been arrested for harboring a fugitive Fae named Loegaire. Loegaire is on the run after breaking Meabh, a condemned princess out of prison; Meabh herself is also on the run, her crime being (in the eyes of her father) a blend of fratricide, regicide and treason. (Technically it was self-defense, as her brother attacked her first and tried to kill her, but her father views it as otherwise). The humans and Loegaire are brought before Kings Madoc and Finvarra to be tried. Madoc is Meabh's father, and the King of the Winter Court; Finvarra is King of the Summer Court, and currently in power in the Fae realm, but he lends some authority to Madoc for the purpose of the trial.

As it stands right now, the scene goes as follows: the three humans are found guilty of harboring the fugitive Loegaire (in spite of Dom being totally innocent), while Loegaire is found guilty of breaking Meabh out of prison and killing a guard in the process. Madoc begins to announce Meabh's sentence despite her not being there, but Vincent objects with the claim that trial _in absentia_ is illegal. Madoc refutes this, saying he can do whatever he wants; Finvarra rebuffs him and asserts his own authority. Madoc assumes that Vincent wants to act as Meabh's defendant, which Vincent denies, though he does offer his opinion as to what Meabh should be tried for, stressing the fact that the death of her brother was self-defense rather than murder.

At that point the Kings convene to reconsider things, and the sentence is given: the humans are to go out and search through Faerie for Meabh, and bring her to the Kings for her trial within three weeks. If they fail, they will serve a prison term of roughly ten years; if they try to escape, their prison term will triple in length. If they find Meabh to be deceased, they will be freed to return to their own world. Loegaire is appointed as the humans' guide, with the knowledge that his sentence will be given once he returns; and should he fail, his punishment will be the same as Meabh's, whether or not she herself is caught and tried -- namely, eternal imprisonment in a mortal body, in a perpetual cycle of birth, death and rebirth. To the Fae, this is a fate worse than death.


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## Clhellums (Aug 2, 2012)

Hello, I'm new to this community, but I plan on becoming a regular. I've been in law enforcement (currently a K9 Handler) for nearly five years. While Frog is probably who you should direct court procedure questions to, I could also help in this area from the perspective of the law enforcer (as it relates to real-world law enforcement). Now, while the laws in your world may differ greatly from real world laws, the way your law enforcers deal with law-breakers may not. Also, if you have any questions as far as animal companions, I would offer any insight I have into that as well. Thanks.


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## Frog (Aug 3, 2012)

Ireth said:


> I have a courtroom scene in one of my WIPs; the protagonists are arrested and tried by the Fair Folk. Given that this is pure fantasy, and the judge and jury are on a completely different moral scale than the human protagonists, how much realism should I go for?



Well, that's more of a stylistic question than anything else.  That said, if we're dealing with a jury trial I can only believe that there's going to be some universal things that just won't change whether you've got faeries or humans.  



> To be more specific: the three humans, Vincent, Dom and Ariel, have been arrested for harboring a fugitive Fae named Loegaire. Loegaire is on the run after breaking Meabh, a condemned princess out of prison; Meabh herself is also on the run, her crime being (in the eyes of her father) a blend of fratricide, regicide and treason. (Technically it was self-defense, as her brother attacked her first and tried to kill her, but her father views it as otherwise). The humans and Loegaire are brought before Kings Madoc and Finvarra to be tried. Madoc is Meabh's father, and the King of the Winter Court; Finvarra is King of the Summer Court, and currently in power in the Fae realm, but he lends some authority to Madoc for the purpose of the trial.



OK, I think I follow.  This is looking a little bit more like the British court system, which is more of an extension of their monarchy than a separate branch of government.



> As it stands right now, the scene goes as follows: the three humans are found guilty of harboring the fugitive Loegaire (in spite of Dom being totally innocent), while Loegaire is found guilty of breaking Meabh out of prison and killing a guard in the process. Madoc begins to announce Meabh's sentence



You've turned me around a bit here.  Was this a jury trial?  If so, then we need to address what the _jury_ thought of Meabh before we even get to Madoc.  If the Fae kings can just pronounce the verdict, then lose the jury.  Jury trials are large, dramatic affairs, and it looks like you're using this courtroom scene to jump-start the rest of your plot.  I say go with a Bench Trial, and let the Kings pronounce both verdict and sentence.



> despite her not being there, but Vincent objects with the claim that trial _in absentia_ is illegal. Madoc refutes this, saying he can do whatever he wants; Finvarra rebuffs him and asserts his own authority. Madoc assumes that Vincent wants to act as Meabh's defendant, which Vincent denies, though he does offer his opinion as to what Meabh should be tried for, stressing the fact that the death of her brother was self-defense rather than murder.



Actually, many jurisdictions do have some form of proceeding _in absentia_ rules, though they are pretty limited.  

Is Vincent a legal expert?  If so, you need to address the jurisdictional issues running around here.  After all, it sounds like the harboring didn't happen in Faerie lands; Vincent would at least try to assert that this would give the human courts jurisdiction.  It might fail due to the way the Fey look on it, but from Vincent's perspective it's worth a shot, right?




> At that point the Kings convene to reconsider things, and the sentence is given: the humans are to go out and search through Faerie for Meabh, and bring her to the Kings for her trial within three weeks. If they fail, they will serve a prison term of roughly ten years; if they try to escape, their prison term will triple in length. If they find Meabh to be deceased, they will be freed to return to their own world.



So, community service and probation, then.  For some added conflict in your story, give this rag-tag squad of unwilling bounty hunters a probation officer (make up a faerie term for this) who's constantly riding them to make sure they're doing the job.  That will very closely mirror an actual sentence.



> Loegaire is appointed as the humans' guide, with the knowledge that his sentence will be given once he returns; and should he fail, his punishment will be the same as Meabh's, whether or not she herself is caught and tried -- namely, eternal imprisonment in a mortal body, in a perpetual cycle of birth, death and rebirth. To the Fae, this is a fate worse than death.



Our boy Vincent needs to try to get sentenced to this "fate worse than death."  It sounds pretty sweet from a human perspective.  If this is a severe punishment for faeries, he should try and talk his way up to it.


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## Frog (Aug 3, 2012)

Clhellums said:


> Hello, I'm new to this community, but I plan on becoming a regular. I've been in law enforcement (currently a K9 Handler) for nearly five years.



Dog cop!  Otherwise known as the probable-cause generating machine.  I hate going up against K9; juries can be persuaded that the cops are powermad liars.  They will almost always believe the damned cute puppy dog, though.

(A note here:  It is not actually my opinion that cops are powermad liars.  It's just what I have to sell the jury on in a criminal case.  Well, that or doughnut-munching layabout morons.  It depends on what the cop looks like.  Cops have such an advantage in testimony wearing that uniform that you have to do something if you're going to fight for your client.  

Personally, I actually like cops.  But don't tell my clients I said that.)


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## Ireth (Aug 3, 2012)

Frog said:


> You've turned me around a bit here.  Was this a jury trial?  If so, then we need to address what the _jury_ thought of Meabh before we even get to Madoc.  If the Fae kings can just pronounce the verdict, then lose the jury.  Jury trials are large, dramatic affairs, and it looks like you're using this courtroom scene to jump-start the rest of your plot.  I say go with a Bench Trial, and let the Kings pronounce both verdict and sentence.



Can you explain the difference between a Bench Trial and a jury trial?



Frog said:


> Is Vincent a legal expert?  If so, you need to address the jurisdictional issues running around here.  After all, it sounds like the harboring didn't happen in Faerie lands; Vincent would at least try to assert that this would give the human courts jurisdiction.  It might fail due to the way the Fey look on it, but from Vincent's perspective it's worth a shot, right?



Vincent is by no means a legal expert, nor am I. He could definitely try to play up the human vs. Fae world angle, though, for what it's worth.



Frog said:


> So, community service and probation, then.  For some added conflict in your story, give this rag-tag squad of unwilling bounty hunters a probation officer (make up a faerie term for this) who's constantly riding them to make sure they're doing the job.  That will very closely mirror an actual sentence.



King Madoc is going to scry on the hunters (a form of spying via bowls of water) as they go to make sure they do their job right, as well as secretly following the hunters along with King Finvarra and a retinue of attendants from both Courts. Madoc will be able to see and hear the hunters from afar, which will make it very difficult for them to discuss their *actual* intention without being found out, caught and punished.



Frog said:


> Our boy Vincent needs to try to get sentenced to this "fate worse than death."  It sounds pretty sweet from a human perspective.  If this is a severe punishment for faeries, he should try and talk his way up to it.



Well, if it were me, I'd much prefer an afterlife to perpetual, cyclical life. It's even worse for the bound Fae if they're fully aware of what they used to be, and can feel their mortal body literally dying around them each day as they live their mortal lives. Fae don't get sick like humans do, so that will be horrible for them as well. Having to endure that for century after century... I can see why the Fae would prefer the oblivion of death without an afterlife.


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## Steerpike (Aug 4, 2012)

Ireth said:


> Can you explain the difference between a Bench Trial and a jury trial?



In a jury trial, the jury resolves questions of fact, while the judge resolves questions of law. In a bench trial, there is no jury. The judge essentially performs the functions of both jury and judge.


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## Frog (Aug 5, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> In a jury trial, the jury resolves questions of fact, while the judge resolves questions of law. In a bench trial, there is no jury. The judge essentially performs the functions of both jury and judge.



Yup.

In a jury trial, the fight in front of the judge boils down to what evidence can be presented to the jury, what arguments can be made to the jury, and what instructions are given to the jury in order to determine the case.

In a bench trial, there is no jury.  The judge decides everything.


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## Ireth (Aug 5, 2012)

Frog said:


> Yup.
> 
> In a jury trial, the fight in front of the judge boils down to what evidence can be presented to the jury, what arguments can be made to the jury, and what instructions are given to the jury in order to determine the case.
> 
> In a bench trial, there is no jury.  The judge decides everything.



Aaah, yes, that does sound more appropriate for my story. Thanks for the info.


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## Clhellums (Aug 5, 2012)

Frog said:
			
		

> Dog cop!  Otherwise known as the probable-cause generating machine.  I hate going up against K9; juries can be persuaded that the cops are powermad liars.  They will almost always believe the damned cute puppy dog, though.
> 
> Personally, I actually like cops.  But don't tell my clients I said that.)



I prefer K9 handler, sir....just kidding. I'm actually friends with a few local attorneys. But don't tell my brothers in blue that.


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## Frog (Aug 6, 2012)

Clhellums said:


> I prefer K9 handler, sir....just kidding. I'm actually friends with a few local attorneys. But don't tell my brothers in blue that.



I tend to view my relationship with cops a lot like the old Sam-the-Sheepdog v. Wiley Coyote.  We check into work, argue with each other, check out, then go have a beer.


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