# Seat-of-the-pants or outline writing?



## Ronald T. (Oct 21, 2015)

I'm wondering about the ratio of pantsers to outliners.  Which do you belong to...and why?

I'm definitely a pantser.  And here's why.

I am such a visual person that I can't write a word without first seeing the scene in my mind.  That's even true when I'm writing about emotions.  I have to see the facial expressions and body language of the characters, as well as feel the depth of their various emotions.  Otherwise, it's like seeing something in black and white instead of in color.  In other words, less than it could be. 

My question to outliners is this:

How do you avoid the tendency to lose interest?  I know that you don't, because I've read some fantastic epic fantasy by authors who say they are outliners.  And yet, it seems so limiting.

I'll explain what I mean from a pantser's POV.

I write the movie I see in my mind.  I can see each scene as a 360 degree moving picture.  Of course, my characters have a particular goal in mind.  But most of the time they have a number of options as to which route they might take to escape a problem or to achieve that goal.  Sometimes they have only one avenue of escape, as it should be.  But if I've written an outline, I'd imagine I'd be somewhat predisposed to making them follow that outline.  So my question is...doesn't that limit the natural and creative flow of the story? 

I ask because I don't know how a writer can know the immediate and emotional needs of the character in a particular scene, especially considering that they've structured a linear storyline back at the time they wrote the outline.

But what do I know?  I'm just a hermit in the woods.

As always, my best to all of you.


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## Heliotrope (Oct 21, 2015)

I'm an outliner, through and through. I always start with my ending in mind and work backwards in an outline until I get to the beginning. Usually I have a very dramatic scene or emotion in my mind (like you say about a movie). I will write that out in point form: The setting, the smells, the emotions, the conflict, etc. Then I will work backwards. How did they get to that point? What caused them to make that choice? Why is it significant? I build it up and build it up until it becomes something big, then I create an ending. 

So for example, in my posted story "The Lone Survivor of Gihon Pass" in the Showcase, I knew I had to write a character who was a jerk. I saw him in my mind beating on his disabled daughter, and I started to ask myself why. Why would he do that? I needed him to be sympathetic and redeemable, so I decided to make him afraid. He is afraid of something and in his mind he thinks he is really helping her. Then I worked backwards from there, making notes and compelling scenes, making sure to work in the details. 

I find when I pants that I can't create the tension/conflict and I always have to go back to rewrite anyway. When I plan I can look at a scene point form and say "How can I up the stakes here? What else can I do to make it really personal? Oh, I know… and then I can add that in, plus foreshadowing etc before I even write a word. 

I don't lose interest because by the time I have a good plan I feel really strongly about then I'm desperate to start writing it out. Until then I'm sort of 'meh' about the story.That is when I know I'm ready. If I'm not really feeling excited about writing it it is because there isn't enough tension or conflict yet. The stakes aren't high enough. I have to keep re-thinking and planning until I get to that point.


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## Ronald T. (Oct 21, 2015)

Fascinating, Heliotrope.

Your technique is certainly alien to me.  However, the way you describe your approach and eventual process is so interesting.  I really appreciate your input.  It's clear you've put a lot of thought into how you create your stories.  And if this post is an example of your writing, I can't imagine that you won't have a dedicated and deeply interested audience for your novels.

Thanks so much.  I truly enjoyed hearing about your process.  

-Ron-


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## Nimue (Oct 21, 2015)

I think the disconnect here is that you're imagining an outline being something that's set in stone.  But outlines, like all plans and ideas, change over time.  I'm constantly envisioning and revising my stories, and that goes into the outline.  If I get a new idea, that goes into the outline. On the other hand, I use a very bare-bones outlining system--maybe other people do write it with enough complexity that it becomes concrete.

For me, an outline has three main functions: 1) helping me remember all of my ideas so I don't accidentally forget that great scene idea I had, 2) writing things down and seeing if they make sense in the transition from thought to words before plunging in and trying to write it, and 3) exploring new ideas and how they would interact with the overall structure of the story, plot-wise, chronology-wise.

I have done a lot of seat-of-the-pants writing, but I find that I tend to get bogged down and meander a lot, and that just results in a lot of editing work. If I know where I'm going my writing tends to be cleaner and pleasanter to read.  I know which scenes are important and interesting and which ones should be brief and to-the-point.  Of course individual scenes change and metamorphose while I'm writing them, but the really wild, large-scale creativity is happening in the conceptual stage, not while I'm drafting.


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## BWFoster78 (Oct 21, 2015)

Ronald,

I used to be a pantser, but I'm in the process of transforming myself into an outliner because it's much, much more efficient.



> How do you avoid the tendency to lose interest? I know that you don't, because I've read some fantastic epic fantasy by authors who say they are outliners. And yet, it seems so limiting.



I don't think that any challenge is boring, and to me, the challenge in writing a book is to create something that the readers will find engaging.  Since each stage of the process is important in making the book engaging, each stage is challenging.



> But if I've written an outline, I'd imagine I'd be somewhat predisposed to making them follow that outline. So my question is...doesn't that limit the natural and creative flow of the story?



Following your reasoning, you must lose interest with editing because it's the same thing. Once you've got that first draft down, you're really just going through and making things better by following what you've already conceived and put on paper.

There is little difference, imo, between an outline and a pantsers' first draft.  The outline is simply a first draft done in bullet points, making it take less time to write and easier to change.

So my question is, "How do you maintain interest in your project after writing your first draft?"


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## Nimue (Oct 21, 2015)

Ronald T. said:


> I ask because I don't know how a writer can know the immediate and emotional needs of the character in a particular scene, especially considering that they've structured a linear storyline back at the time they wrote the outline.


I'll add this, because I'm not sure I addressed your original post that well.  I'm also a very visual writer (blame all the purple prose on that, I suppose) and character emotion matters a great deal to me.  When I write, I am immersed in the character's perspective, I see the scene, I hear the dialogue being spoken, etc.  But I don't really see how this is antithetical to writing from an outline? When I've sat down to write a scene, I've almost surely envisioned it before, at least in vague terms.  So you could say that my outlining and planning comes from what I know from the "rehearsal" scene--which definitely includes character needs and emotions--and the draft is the version of the scene that ends up played out on stage.

(There are a lot of drawbacks to visualizing while you write, though this may be off-topic... Feeling the need to write out each detail and minutiae of the character's experience, for one thing.  Experiencing something more that just the words you're putting down may create a barrier to understanding what is there for the reader.  The reader doesn't have these images, these emotions, to fill in the gaps.  Just the sentences on the page.  Also, when it comes down to it, the medium of writing is more than visual, and it is about the nuance and interplay of the words, the texture of writing itself--not simply trying to get a direct representation of what's in your head.)


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## Heliotrope (Oct 21, 2015)

Ronald T. said:


> I'm wondering about the ratio of pantsers to outliners.  Which do you belong to...and why?
> 
> 
> I ask because I don't know how a writer can know the immediate and emotional needs of the character in a particular scene, especially considering that they've structured a linear storyline back at the time they wrote the outline.
> .



I will answer this too. It is because my scenes are not purely 'showing what is happening' my scenes are in place to show a particular emotion, or a reason behind a response. 

So for an example, with my Gihon Pass story I lay in bed thinking "When was someone a total jerk to me?" This made the story more real, so that I could draw on actual experience. My inspiration came from when I was 16 and my dad was teaching me how to drive. He was, for lack of a better term, a total A-hole. Once I actually stopped the car and got out and we did have the whole "I hate you" scene in that moment. So then I thought "Ok, why was he being such a jerk?" Well, likely because he was afraid of all the danger on the road. If I didn't learn how to be a safe driver there was a good possibility he could lose his little girl and that was terrifying for him. His response to that was to be really hard on me. 

OK, so transfer those feelings/emotions in a scene about a man beating on his daughter because he is afraid for her. 

Then I ask myself: What, in the story, is she doing that makes him afraid? And I make a list of possibilities. I settled on "Because she has joined the army". Then I ask myself, how can this be worse? How can you make this truly frightening for him? I try to come up with a list of at least 10 ideas. I push myself to really think it through, then I settle on my top 5 (or more). I settled on: 
1) Because she is disabled and he is worried she is too vulnerable and can't look after herself. 
2) Because he lost his wife in a war.
3) Because he recently lost his son in the same army she just joined. 
5) Because he was an army commander and lost an entire legion and had to live with the guilt of that. (How can I make this even worse? He is haunted by the ghosts of his legion. He wishes he could join them. He drinks so that he doesn't have to think about it.) 

So then I create scenes or moments that "show" his feelings of despair, loneliness, fear etc. 

Good, but still not enough. Now we know why he is terrified of her going to war… but what is it about _her_ in particular? She needs to be very significant. So again, I brainstorm 10 ideas: 
1) When he saw her as a newborn she represented hope and redemption and life. 
2) He realized that she was worth living for. 
3) She is the only reason he doesn't kill himself from the guilt and shame of deserting his legion. 

Etc, etc. I just keep asking myself "Why? How can this be worse? How can I make this more important, emotionally? And then I create scenes to show those powerful emotions.


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## Incanus (Oct 21, 2015)

My answer is:  I’m not sure—maybe someone here can tell me which I am.

On the one hand, I have an overall plot for my novel.  I know the MC goal, motivation, and arc, and I know the basic ending.  I worked out a goodly amount about the main cast of characters beforehand.  I have one subplot (so far), and I know where that’s going to end up as well.

On the other hand, there are scenes coming up that I haven’t even thought of yet.  I haven’t figured out every last obstacle that my MC will face.  I have structure, but not a detailed outline.

Back to the first hand again, I never, ever start writing a conflict or problem into the story until I know exactly how it is going to be dealt with, or resolved, or what the results will be.  So I outline a little ways ahead while I’m working on the current scenes.

If I’m pantsing the outline as I go, what does that make me?  But whatever appellation applies (or none at all), it’s been more or less working for me.


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## Heliotrope (Oct 21, 2015)

Icanus, George RR Martin calls himself a 'Gardener'. He says that he plants a seed and sees how it grows, but he does have a basic idea of the structure of the garden before hand… Sounds like you are a gardener too?


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## Incanus (Oct 21, 2015)

Oh, yeah.  I'm well aware of GRRM's terms, 'gardener' and 'architect'.  (I think I like the terms better than pantser/outliner.)

I'm still confused.  I don't write scenes and improv along the way, finding out where it goes.  I have to know already.  That doesn't sound very much like a 'gardener' to me.  Ultimately, the deed is more important than the name any of us might give it.


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## Sheilawisz (Oct 21, 2015)

Hello Ronald!

I am very similar to you in this, because I am a very visual person as well and I like to describe my Storytelling process as something similar to having a movie inside of my head. I need to _visualize_ the scenes, the setting and also feel what my characters are feeling, so I can translate all of it properly into the written story.

Sure I have in mind how the story begins, evolves and ends before I even start to write it, but the creative process of telling it is similar to _dancing with the story_ and I never know what surprises are going to come along the way.

I like very much the _Gardening_ thing described by George Martin, yeah... That's another way of describing what I do.

In my opinion, it's a good idea to have some outlining if you are a Pantser and at the same time you should have some pantsing even if you are an outliner, because the balance will help you in telling your story more effectively.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Oct 21, 2015)

I used to be a pure pantser. Now, I do both. The choice of which method I utilize, and to what extent, depends on the size or complexity of the project. Most short stories for example, I pants. However, if the short story is complex, I may need a bit more structure before writing. Novel sized works I plan and outline thoroughly, but most of that planning is brainstorming what if scenarios and fleshing out story points. I never have every single beat planned out, manly because I believe in the power of discovery writing...that unexpected turns can work out quite well. Or, as Ray Bradbury once said, "Your intuition knows what to write, so get out of the way."



Ronald T. said:


> How do you avoid the tendency to lose interest?


My outlines are like "points of interest" on a road map that I've circled for an upcoming trip. I don't plan the route though. I get there taking whatever roads feel organic and natural. In that way, the story remains stimulating. And sometimes, another more intriguing development will overtake the original plan. I allow that to happen. 



Ronald T. said:


> ...if I've written an outline, I'd imagine I'd be somewhat predisposed to making them follow that outline.  So my question is...doesn't that limit the natural and creative flow of the story?


Only if you force yourself to adhere to your original plan. That doesn't work for me.



Ronald T. said:


> I ask because I don't know how a writer can know the immediate and emotional needs of the character in a particular scene, especially considering that they've structured a linear storyline back at the time they wrote the outline.


That would depend on the process, I suppose. I know writers who plan a book for six months to a year, down to the nitty gritty details. Every beat. Where you might spend time figuring your characters out during the actual writing, they've already done that intricate work in the planning process by writing out character interviews, involved back stories, ten page character sketches and archetype profiles, etc. 

Here's another nugget on this topic from E.L. Doctorow:


> Writing a novel is like driving a car at night. You can see only as far as your headlights, but you can make the whole trip that way.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 21, 2015)

I outline everything. 

I've given examples of now and then in threads like these, and I don't mind doing it again.
My process is iterative. I start out with a very simple idea, and then I rewrite it in more and more detail with each try. That way, I keep the story within the boundaries I've set up, and I still get to discover new and interesting details about characters and events and history as I go. With each new iteration I learn new things about my story and in the end I know it well enough to sit down and actually write it.

By this time it's a bit like painting by numbers. I know what's going to happen. I know who's going to stand where and say what and how they'll feel about it. I just have to pick out the best words to describe that. Then again, even at this stage, the story keeps changing and new details keep cropping up. There are no large scale changes, but little quirks in the characters' personalities and in their manners manifest.

Even if it's writing by outline it's still quite a fluid process. The story continues to grow even after to outline is done, and from draft to draft.

I can't imagine achieving this depth of character and setting by just making it up as I go along. Sure, I could come up with fantastic and interesting things, but I don't think I'd be able to weave them into the story in the same way I'm able to now.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Oct 21, 2015)

I do not believe the two are mutually exclusive. I believe there is a spectrum where a writer is more one way or more another. I have not found where I fit on that spectrum. I find pure outlining boring but pure pantsing is very sloppy and inefficient. So for book attempt three I am trying a hybrid approach. 

Part of this approach requires knowing what I want to end with for each character and knowing where each should start. I then leave the actual storytelling for pantsing. 

However, for character, world, and other things that require detail but are NOT the story themselves but have an influence I have a system of outlining that helps keep the details straight. There are three kinds of things I outline primary, secondary, and tertiary subjects. Primary subjects are MCs,villains, and world building elements that have a direct impact on the story where it is important and necessary to keep track of their various parts. Secondary outlines are for things that only indirectly impact the story or that directly affect a primary subject. These are things like non pov characters. Tertiary subjects are things that indirectly affect primary subjects or directly affect secondary subjects. This can be anything which is mentioned (like a persons parent) but is never seen or it can be seen but never really discussed other than the immediate impact it has upon the observer. These get only cursory attention and the details are skimmed over. I just jot down a line about each as needed. 

Note that a lot of the tertiary outlining usually happens AFTER I write about the thing so that I have a future reference should it become important later. 

This is a new method for me but so far it's worked well. We'll see what happens.


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## kennyc (Oct 21, 2015)

I write short, very short lately, flash, micro, short stories. Quite often the entire piece forms and I write it in my journal before transferring it to the computer and editing/enhancing as I do.

Long ago when I did write a few novels I tended to work from a rough outline.

Stephen King is a pantser, but I don't completely believe him, I tend to think he has the ability to see the story in his mind even if he isn't aware of it. 

John Irving writes the final scene first and works backwards to the beginning.

YMMV


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## stephenspower (Oct 21, 2015)

Outline novels, pants stories (although after a third I can usually see the other two thirds).


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## ThinkerX (Oct 21, 2015)

Used to just take an idea and run with it.  Usually ended up writing myself into a dead end or 'now what?' type situation.  That was decades ago.

Not wishing any more dead ends, I decided against starting a tale unless I knew the beginning, middle, and end.  Works fine for shorts; I have written maybe three dozen this way up to around 15,000 words.

Longer works, though...the middle can get tangled but good.  

This past spring, I started writing the second novella in a series.  35,000 words.  I had 'mental movies' for a lot of the scenes - but I wasn't sure of the order all of them went in.  Plus I discovered right off I had plot holes large enough to swallow a castle.  So I did an outline.  It helped a lot.  Did I stick to the outline in every detail?  No, but it gave me something to build off of.  

This summer I started the third novella in that series.  Being rushed, I did only the first third of the outline, didn't put as much thought into it as I should have. Got bogged down big time.  Lots of 'why is this guy standing around doing nothing during this time' type stuff.  Ended up going back, looking at what I had, compared that to the outline, and realized they had almost nothing in common.  So I redid the outline proper like, and resumed writing.  (And I still have to go back and fix the hash I made of the first four chapters or so.)

So...it depends, at least for me.  A short work with a good 'mental movie' and reasonably solid beginning, middle, and end - just sit down and write.  Longer works, a well done outline keeps the various clips in order, and helps identify/solve problems.


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## Penpilot (Oct 22, 2015)

I'm a hybrid. I started out as a pantser but went to outlining and then settled in on something in between. Sometimes I pants short stories if I get a flash of an idea, but otherwise I outline broadly without getting too-too deep into detail. 

One thing I've learned about outlines. They're like battle plans, none survive the first encounter with the enemy. I'm constantly revising my outlines on the fly as better ideas and deeper understandings develop.

It doesn't matter if your a pantser or an outliner, in the end the both end up doing the same amount of work. A very simple way of stating this is a pantser gets the words out and then starts organizing and limiting the story. An outliner organizes and limits the story then starts getting the words out.  

As for limiting creativity, not in the least. If you want someone to be creative, one of the best thing you can do is impose limits on them. If you don't limit people, they tend to instinctively take the path of least resistance. In story terms that means the most obvious paths.

Having limits helps one focus on solving problems with what you have at hand and a lot of times that means using things in creative and unconventional ways. Think MacGyver. 

Also just because you have more choices does not mean the choice you make will be more creative. More choices is just more choices. It's what you do with the choices you have available to you that determines creativity. 

I mean if you had a prisoner in a cell and gave them an infinite choice in tools to escape their cell would that end up being more creative than if you limited them to a roll of toilet paper, three walnuts, and spool of dental floss?


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## Miskatonic (Oct 22, 2015)

If the premise is relatively simple and I know how I want to start out the first page, I'll just start typing and see where it goes. If it's a big project then I rely completely on an outline.


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## acapes (Oct 22, 2015)

Hybrid all the way!


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## Mythopoet (Oct 22, 2015)

Honestly, I do whatever seems like a good idea at the time.


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## Chessie (Oct 22, 2015)

When I pantsed, meeting my word count/deadline was ridiculously impossible. Edits weren't effective. Sometimes I didn't finish my projects. I decided somewhere along the way that I needed to get my shit together, and researched different outlining methods. After trying out several, I've come up with a system that works for me at the moment. It'll change though, since every story requires something different in the planning stage.

I can't write unless I have these things in order: theme, story goal, protagonist and his/her moral flaw, the antagonist, secondary characters, setting, plot and pinch points all the way to the end. That's a loose outline for me. I'll go deeper depending on the size of the work, so I'll start writing with shorter pieces and do story beats before I write that day's word count. For the longer ones, I hash out the details for the majority of scenes (leave some flexibility in there) and then I write. The point for me is that I have a high word count per day (5k) and I can't do that unless I have planned out what is being written that day. Pantsing doesn't cut it and my brain no longer works that way. I'm a more efficient and effective writer having an outline.


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## Ronald T. (Oct 22, 2015)

I thank you all, so much.  I am overwhelmed by all the fantastic input.  This is exactly what I was hoping for.

But I am unable to respond right now, as I would like, because I'm am in the middle of replacing ball-joints, wheel-bearings, and tie-rod ends on my pickup.  So, at the moment, I have my hands full.

As soon as I'm finished with this backbreaking chore, I'll do my best to respond to all your generous thoughts.

As always, my best to you all.


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## Addison (Oct 22, 2015)

I start all stories as a pantser. I tried doing outline first once, didn't work. Maybe it was the story itself but I'm a pantser at heart. The weird thing is that once I've written draft #X then I get out the index cards, blank papers and make an outline. I cut my story into blocks and segments so I can see the entire story at once to find where things get loose, complicated etc. So outline is the clean up tool, when it's done I write my discoveries on one checklist and again go through the story in a sort of targeted pantsing.


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## DeathtoTrite (Oct 22, 2015)

I prefer planning, for a lot of the reasons mentioned. Writing without a plan for me leads to exploding word count and often meandering scenes. Keeping good pace, brevity, and overall story plot is difficult for me without a good notion going in. 

But I very much value a book that distills a lot into few words.


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## Incanus (Oct 22, 2015)

DeathtoTrite said:


> Writing without a plan for me leads to exploding word count and often meandering scenes.



It's fascinating how different we all are.  I find that without something resembling a plan, my word count falls precipitously.  I guess since words are so hard for me to get out, meandering isn't something I have a problem with.


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## skip.knox (Oct 22, 2015)

I can't lay claim to being one or another until I've written and published (with peer review) at least three novels. Until then, I figure I'm just guessing. And a little bit of whinging, as I do one thing but feel others are judging me, telling me I ought to be doing the other if I'm going to be a "real" writer.

I'm not a visual person, I'm an olfactory person. That's why my writing stinks. 

That's my standard line in response to all "I'm a ______ person" statements. Why limit yourself? Why can't I be an all-five-senses person? Why do I have to be left-brained or right-brained? Can't I be whole brained? Or just brained? 

That may sound OT, but I truly think it's relevant. We are too eager to cast ourselves into pigeonholes, and we ain't pigeons. I say try everything, keep what works, and let the critics assign the categories after I'm famous.


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## Chessie (Oct 22, 2015)

One thing about plotting though is that it's definitely a learned skill. Writing a loose outline with a few paragraphs is one thing, but deliberately placing scenes where X happens then Y leading to Z keeping theme and plot points moving is a whole other monster. For those who want to learn how to plot efficiently, consider reading several plot books--like 5 to start with. Every author I've read has a different method which has led me to create a system that works a bit better, works a bit even more better, etc. It takes time to figure out what method works for your person, and you start to see the story developing like magic on the page before you even write. It's the single tool that's made a world of difference in my writing.


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## Heliotrope (Oct 22, 2015)

Chesterama, I totally agree. I was reading this post a few days ago: 

Writing The Perfect Scene: Advanced Fiction Writing Tips

At the bottom of the post he describes MRU's, which means 'motivation-reaction units'. His theory was that really good books that are page turners have a big ratio of MRU's. So last night when I was working on my short I was like "Ok, what the hell…" and as an exercise I decided to write a few paragraphs using only the MRU pattern: Motivation, emotional reaction, physical reaction, speech, as he describes it in the post. 

It was really hard and felt really weird and my draft was terrible. However, I could really see how it forced me to make more things happen in the scene. It forced me to include some sort of action where I wouldn't have. I really saw how it could make a scene much more interesting and fast paced. So while I'm not sure that it is a pattern I would use for every sentence, the exercise was very effective in helping me write a much more action based/fast paced scene.


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## ThinkerX (Oct 22, 2015)

> But I am unable to respond right now, as I would like, because I'm am in the middle of replacing ball-joints, wheel-bearings, and tie-rod ends on my pickup. So, at the moment, I have my hands full.



That was me last week...with the work rig.  Except add rear brake shoes, blown seals and a bad driveline.  Ages ago, I might have attempted that myself.  But since it was tax deductible, I let the shop across the street wrestle with it whilst I wrestled with editing.


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## spectre (Oct 24, 2015)

I have some talent in writing but I'm not an english major. What is the difference? I don't want to assume, Google's being rude. Is it writing off the top of the gead versus drawing up an outline?

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## psychotick (Oct 24, 2015)

Hi,

I'm probably the most pure pantster there is. I simply start with a scen, a person, a world or something and go from there.I not only have no idea where a books going to end, I often don't know where it's going to go next. Many times I end up surprising myself. Usually I just write, put myself in the shoes of the MC and then see what happens.

It's a good system in a way. It keeps me motivated and fresh, and my word counts per day can be really good. It's also I think truer to my characters. I don't have to write an MC winning a battle etc to match a plot outline. It may be more real for himto lose, or run away or do something dishonourable. But at the same time I have well over a hundred novels on my computers now which are in various stages of completion, because I reached a certain point and then didn't know where the story goes next. On the other hand it's not all terrible with twenty three books pubbed.

Cheers, Greg.


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## spectre (Oct 24, 2015)

That's amazing Psyk

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## Gospodin (Oct 24, 2015)

I'm somewhere in the middle.  Heresy, I know.    I know where my story will end and I know some landmark points to get there.  The beginning usually presents itself as I start to write, and the initial beginning that I write is never, _ever_ the actual beginning.  There's always warm-up that tends to either get lopped or trimmed from the front and folded in later.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Oct 24, 2015)

spectre said:


> I have some talent in writing but I'm not an english major. What is the difference? I don't want to assume, Google's being rude. Is it writing off the top of the gead versus drawing up an outline?
> 
> Sent from my LGMS345 using Tapatalk



That is correct. But, as with a lot of things, I don't really consider it an either or, but more of a spectrum. These two are just the extreme points on the line.


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## spectre (Oct 24, 2015)

Gotcha

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## evolution_rex (Oct 24, 2015)

Is it the outlining that causes me to lose interest? Then that might be the problem I always have. I've never been able to finish a large story yet, the longest thing I've ever wrote was just a Jurassic Park fan script that was 60 pages, and it's usually because I begin to doubt and lose interest in the the story during the outline stage. If its the outline that's causing me to have this trouble, then perhaps I should change the way I right.

I'm like you as well, envisioning stories visually and like a scene in a movie. I became a movie person before I was big reader, and I write mainly because I can't paint or draw very well and I don't have the resources to direct a high budget movie with tons of visual effects. Writing is the best format I have to describe these 'scenes' I have in my head. But to me, outlining became even more important when I realized that. That's when I started going scene by scene of what was going on, making sure there were no inconsistencies and that each part was good as a story before I could physically start writing it.

How can I write a story without any outlines when I'm not sure where the story is going to go? I don't want a messy narrative, I want foreshadowing and I want the plot to unravel with clever bits here and there. How do I do that?


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## Garren Jacobsen (Oct 24, 2015)

evolution_rex said:


> How can I write a story without any outlines when I'm not sure where the story is going to go? I don't want a messy narrative, I want foreshadowing and I want the plot to unravel with clever bits here and there. How do I do that?



For me, it's not about not knowing where the story will go. It's about not knowing how the story will get there. So, I always know the end and I know my characters. Once I get the beginning I progress that way. I sometimes work backwards and I sometimes work forwards but I am always thinking about the story.


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## kennyc (Oct 26, 2015)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm probably the most pure pantster there is. I simply start with a scen, a person, a world or something and go from there.I not only have no idea where a books going to end, I often don't know where it's going to go next. Many times I end up surprising myself. Usually I just write, put myself in the shoes of the MC and then see what happens.
> 
> ...



The Stephen King method. You're in good company!


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## kennyc (Oct 26, 2015)

evolution_rex said:


> Is it the outlining that causes me to lose interest? Then that might be the problem I always have. I've never been able to finish a large story yet, the longest thing I've ever wrote was just a Jurassic Park fan script that was 60 pages, and it's usually because I begin to doubt and lose interest in the the story during the outline stage. If its the outline that's causing me to have this trouble, then perhaps I should change the way I right.
> 
> I'm like you as well, envisioning stories visually and like a scene in a movie. I became a movie person before I was big reader, and I write mainly because I can't paint or draw very well and I don't have the resources to direct a high budget movie with tons of visual effects. Writing is the best format I have to describe these 'scenes' I have in my head. But to me, outlining became even more important when I realized that. That's when I started going scene by scene of what was going on, making sure there were no inconsistencies and that each part was good as a story before I could physically start writing it.
> 
> How can I write a story without any outlines when I'm not sure where the story is going to go? I don't want a messy narrative, I want foreshadowing and I want the plot to unravel with clever bits here and there. How do I do that?



It could be. Many writers don't want to talk about what they are writing for fear they will 'tell the story' and get it out of their system. Outlining could be the same. By doing the outline you might unconsciously feel you've completed the story and no need to write it. ...


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## thedarknessrising (Oct 26, 2015)

Heliotrope said:


> Icanus, George RR Martin calls himself a 'Gardener'. He says that he plants a seed and sees how it grows, but he does have a basic idea of the structure of the garden before hand… Sounds like you are a gardener too?



When I read the original post, I was trying to figure out what kind of writer I was. This method is probably the best description.


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## kennyc (Oct 26, 2015)

Ronald T. said:


> ...  I'm just a hermit in the woods.
> 
> ...



Yeah, so was Henry David Thoreau.


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## Ronald T. (Oct 26, 2015)

Thanks to you all.  So many great posts.  

I think I will be able to respond to most of you on Wednesday, 10/28/15.  Since last Wednesday, I've been busy repairing the broken front suspension on my truck, which broke the day before -- new rotor/wheel bearing-hubs, new tie-rod ends, and new inner and outer wheel bearings on both front wheels.  And I'm much slower than I was when I was younger.  I should finish the job today.  Then tomorrow, I have to mow a lawn that is a week overdo.

Please be patient.  I promise, I will respond to your great posts.  And thank you again.

As always, my best to you all.

The hermit in the woods


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## kennyc (Oct 26, 2015)

Ronald T. said:


> Thanks to you all.  So many great posts.
> 
> I think I will be able to respond to most of you on Wednesday, 10/28/15.  Since last Wednesday, I've been busy repairing the broken front suspension on my truck, which broke the day before -- new rotor/wheel bearing-hubs, new tie-rod ends, and new inner and outer wheel bearings on both front wheels.  And I'm much slower than I was when I was younger.  I should finish the job today.  Then tomorrow, I have to mow a lawn that is a week overdo.
> 
> ...



Good Luck with that!


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## Incanus (Oct 26, 2015)

Well I certainly learned something from this thread:

It looks as though I'm the 'hybrid' type.


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## Ronald T. (Oct 28, 2015)

Finally, my response and my thanks to all your great posts.   

I've finished my backbreaking chores, and now I can get back to the thread  I began on 10-21-15.  I apologize for the delay.  I have to admit that the unexpected mechanical problems with my truck's front suspension was more than a little aggravating.  But I finished the work successfully, so I can move on to more enjoyable issues. 

Again, I thank you all so much.  I learned an amazing amount from what each of you had to say.  It seems I sometimes make faulty assumptions about an issue when I've spent years doing things in a certain way.  Perhaps we all do.  But I asked my original question in an attempt to learn how others go about the process of writing.  I learn by watching, listening, and asking questions, as I'm sure most of us do.  So, if in any way my thread-post came across as an attempt to diminish or malign any other writer's technique, I apologize.  My entire purpose was to learn.  And with your input, I learned more than I ever thought possible.

Because I'm a new participant to forums such as this, and because I'm 'the hermit in the woods', I've had little chance to discuss writing with others who are committed to the art and craft of writing.  So I admit to a limited degree of knowledge -- or to a certain amount of ignorance, if you prefer? -- on how others go about their individual techniques.  With you kind willingness to share your particular processes, I now consider myself much more informed. 

If my way of responding to your posts is unconventional or distracting, I apologize.  I have yet to learn how to copy from other posts and insert them into mine.  But be patient...I will eventually learn that as well.

HELIOTROPE -- I would like the thank you once again.  Your first post was an eye-opening example of how different our various techniques can be.  I was amazed and astonished by what you described.  Your process is so different from mine.  And yet it seems to work very well for you.  And isn't that our foremost challenge?  If we are to achieve anything in life, we must first find a process that works.  I believe that is the key to any success.  

NIMUE -- your idea of a disconnect is correct to a certain point.  Although I know that an outline isn't set in stone, I made the faulty assumption that a writer might have a tendency to force a story in a particular direction to suit the outline.  Having read all these great posts, I now see I was in error.  In response to the problem with a wandering story, I'm fortunately someone who is blessed -- or cursed -- with tunnel-vision.  I seldom lose track of where I am in the story, or where I'm going.  I have many annoying issue with my writing, but wandering off track isn't one of them.  Thanks so much for your input.

BWFOSTER78 -- From what I can gather based on your first statement, you had the same problem with 'wandering' that Nimue spoke of.  If that's the case, I'm in absolute agreement with you on the idea that outlining is more efficient.  And your point about the potential for losing interest with either technique is a fantastic point.  I admit, I hadn't looked at it that way.  Well done!
However, I take a small issue with your statement that there is little difference between the two techniques.  It they aren't markedly different, then why did you choose to change your approach?  I only ask because I don't know.  Thanks for your input.

-- to be continued --


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## BWFoster78 (Oct 28, 2015)

Ronald T,

You asked this question:



> However, I take a small issue with your statement that there is little difference between the two techniques. It they aren't markedly different, then why did you choose to change your approach? I only ask because I don't know.



Here is an actual quote of my statement:



> There is little difference, imo, between an outline and a pantsers' first draft. The outline is simply a first draft done in bullet points, making it take less time to write and easier to change.



I did not say that there is little difference between the two techniques.  I said that the is little difference between what I produced as a pantser with my first draft and what I produce as an outline.  The outline, for me, is simply that first draft done in bullet points.

The reason I changed is efficiency.  It's a lot faster to write bullet points than a full scene, and it's easier to rearrange and insert inside bullet points than it is in full scenes and chapters.


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## Ronald T. (Oct 28, 2015)

-- continuing --

NIMUE -- It appears we have a similar ability to visualize.  I believe it is a talent that many writers have, and I can't imagine trying to write without it.  Concerning your question about visualization being antithetical to the outlining process, my reference was to how an outliner knows what direction a MC will take if they haven't already done the work and detailed visualization necessary to make a choice.  That very choice could change the eventual storyline dramatically.  So my concern was with the potential of an author forcing a MC to follow a pre-set plan.  Since I've never been an outliner, it could be that I'm focused on issues that aren't truly problems at all.  And I think that the idea of writing too much detail is simply an issue of losing focus.  I could probably write an entire book on one complex scene.  But the need for precision and focus forces me to choose the most important details from my mental scenario, and to doggedly keep myself on track.  And you're right...choosing the correct word,  and knowing how to arrange those words in a particular order is what makes one author better than another.  We can all place words on a page, but doing so with grace and beauty is what makes all the difference.  Thanks again.

HELIOTROPE -- Again, your approach to writing is so foreign to me, it absolutely boggles my mind.  Clearly, it works for you.  And that's all that counts in the end.  But I must say, once more, I find your technique utterly fascinating.  Thanks again.

INCANUS -- Based what I've learned of you, I think you're closer to being a 'hybrid', something others have mentioned in their posts.  In fact, if having a non-detailed idea in my mind for the general direction of my novel, or knowing instinctively the various character traits of my nine MC's can be described as having an outline  -- even thought it isn't written down, but retained only in my head -- then, perhaps I tend toward the "hybrid" technique more than I realized.  And I agree...a technique that works is far more important than any name we might give it.  Thanks for the input, Incanus.

SHEILAWISZ -- Wells said, Sheila.  Your analogy to dancing is a good one.  I believe it deals a lot with the pacing aspect of writing.  It is much like my experience with martial arts.  It is a give and take process, a knowing when to back off and when to charge forward.  It seems that all things in life have a natural sense of pacing.  Knowing the steps and music of the various dances of life -- including that of writing -- can make any process much easier.  And you're right...a balance in writing, as in all things, is usually the best policy.  Thanks for your insightful input. 

T.ALLEN.SMITH -- Like Sheilawisz, it seems you strive for a workable balance in your writing.  And your Ray Bradbury quote is great.  Sometimes we have to take our worries out of the equation and simply start writing.  It's amazing what you can achieve when you don't let doubt stand in your way.  And your E. L. Doctorow quote is fantastic.  I couldn't imagine a better description of my technique than that.  Thanks so much.

-- to be continued --


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## Ronald T. (Oct 28, 2015)

Foster78--

My apologies.  Call it a misunderstanding on my part.  No offense was intended.


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## evolution_rex (Oct 28, 2015)

Because of this thread, I am currently use the seat-of-the-pants method on my current story. We'll see how it turns out. Already it feels easier to write and I can physically write more and longer than before, but what I'm writing feels very sub-par. I suppose it's a first draft for a reason, though. If I'm using this method, I'll need to do heavy editing before it can resemble writing that I'd share with others.


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## Ronald T. (Oct 28, 2015)

I will continue my responses tomorrow, but I have neglected my daily chores too long already.  And don't worry.  I don't intend to go into such detail in the future.  However, I will do so on this thread until I've responded to each post and have thanked each poster for their time.  Considering that this was my first attempt at posting an original thread, I thought it might be a good opportunity to let you get to know me a little better, and for you to see my thoughts on writing, as I have sought to do by reading your posts.  I have no wish to offend or bore anyone with my take on a particular issue.  I simply wish to be a participating member of the forum.  This is a way for me to experience how others do what they do, and I am enjoying it immensely. 

As always, my best to you all. 

The hermit in the woods


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## Stephyn Blackwood (Oct 28, 2015)

Oh I used to be an absolute Pantser. Like honestly. I used to be horrible for just rambling in my writings and getting places with it. 

Until I realised that it was like a big turd sprinkled with little bits of glitter. A whole load of crap words stuck together with a few little bits that actually sounded quite good. 

Now however, I've taken to going with the Snowflake method for planning, and I'd say that it's working out a hell of a lot better than anything I've tried before. Managed to actually write a semi-decent short story from it. So... Maybe I should keep on this route of outlining, even though it is time consuming at the beginning. But I'm sure it saves me trouble in the long run.

These are the basic steps of the snowflake method for anyone who is unaware: How To Write A Novel Using The Snowflake Method


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## Heliotrope (Oct 28, 2015)

I started out with Snowflake too! I like it. It really does help narrow everything into focus.


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## M P Goodwin (Oct 28, 2015)

Another interesting thread. For myself I see the entire world in a glorious technicolor but have story boards for each section of the book, say 30k words per section, and with that board as the rails I put my foot down and accelerate hard into the landscape and the characters...and it all just unfolds in front of me. It remains to be seen whether what unfolds is generally well received but so far so good.


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## skip.knox (Oct 28, 2015)

I started out wearing pants, but now I'm retired. ....

No, seriously. I began with the story idea and just started writing. I wrote a *lot*. Several lots, in fact. I think it was necessary because I didn't know _how_ to think my way through a novel. I think outlining may be a great method for my next book, but I don't think it would have done much for me on my first run. It's all very well to study theory and write a song, but sooner or later you just have to pick up the guitar and play.

Where I found outlining to be useful--indispensable, in fact--is in the rewrite. Pantsing is great and exhilarating, but only on the first draft. At least for me. What I discovered, after a couple of years, is that I did indeed have several lots of writing, but it was a giant mess. Not just the poor prose--that's comparatively easy. 

The challenge was in story structure. I had different main characters. The story began in different places. It ended different ways. Some scenes had five or six versions, each with different implications for a dozen other scenes. There's no way to pants yourself through that, short of simply starting over.

That's where outlining helped. I forced myself to outline *what I had actually written*. Getting all that heady-to-write prose into something even vaguely resembling a coherent story was a massive chore--emphasis on both the noun and the adjective. It was horribly dreary work and it's taken me forever. 

Next novel, I'm starting with an outline. I doubt it will help me with the first draft, but I'm hoping (desperately!) that it will help me in subsequent edits.

One additional comment. This is just me, so feel free to disagree with me. It concerns the fear of "getting the story out there" and becoming bored with it.

If I get bored with it that easily, it's not a story, and I've no business writing it. Any novel is going to take so incredibly much work, I'm going to be going over it so freakin' many times, that I had better be utterly committed to it. Not in love with it, because it's too easy to fall out of love. I'm talking commitment.  

So, go tell your story. It's not some piece of fragile china, it's a box of rocks.


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## Mythopoet (Oct 28, 2015)

I just came across this quote by Gene Wolfe recently....

"You never learn how to write a novel. You just learn how to write the novel that you're writing."

I think this is how I think about it too. I don't really think of myself as a "certain" type of writer. I don't think labeling myself is useful.


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## Chessie (Oct 28, 2015)

Ronald T. (I lived in a tent in Grass Valley for several months and loved it! Such a beautiful area), it seems that you have a system already established for your writing. It's good though that you're branching out and asking what other writers do. Never hurts to have other opinions. This is definitely a process that takes some nurturing. Continue researching and reading about it in craft books, trying out new ideas, etc. For me, it took about 10+ craft books and trying out different outlining techniques before finding something that's currently my process. It always changes.


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## Ronald T. (Oct 29, 2015)

-- continuing --

SVRTNSSE -- I can see how your process can be very helpful for an outliner, and yet, still retain an ample amount of fluidity.  It seems very much like the process I use as a sculptor, but in reverse.  As a writer, each layer you add gets you closer to your final goal.  However, in carving stone and wood, each layer I remove brings me closer to the finished work of art.  Very interesting.  Thanks for the input.

BRIAN SCOTT ALLEN -- I think your hybrid approach is a great idea for keeping track of the various aspects of your story.  This seems to be a good method, allowing the best of both worlds.  And after reading all these posts, I think it is quite likely what most of us do to a certain degree.  Well stated. And thanks for sharing. 

KENNYC -- I think you've hit on a major issue of this discussion.  Because when I say I'm a pantser, I only mean that I don't write anything down before I start writing my novels.  The basic structure is there in a very rough form, but it is retained within my mind, not in any written form.  I think that's what Steven King means when he says he's a pantser.  At least that's what I mean.  But Mister King would have to say yea or nay to that supposition.  It's merely a guess on my part.  Thanks for the great input.

THINKERX -- It sounds like you've found what works best for you, and it appears you've settled on a sound process.  I believe it could work well for many writers:  pantser for shorter work, and outliner for longer projects.  Novels can become very detailed and complex.  And keeping track of it all is an absolute necessity if the story has any chance of pleasing a reader.  Thanks for your input.

PENPILOT -- It appears the 'hybrid' process is more common than I expected.  Quite interesting.  And your point about battle plans is right on the mark.  From reading all these posts, I have to agree that both pantsers and outliners probably end up doing the same amount of work.  However, on your point about not allowing the MC to take the path of least resistance, I must disagree.  As you said, it's instinctive,  therefore, a person is likely to take the easier path.  When they have a choice, why would
they chose a path that would clearly be more dangerous?  It seems to me, such a decision makes the character seem foolish.  The wise MC would take what he assumes is the easiest path to achieving his goal.  It is up to the author to then prove his sensible choice was not so sensible after all.  It's incumbent on the writer to make his characters appear smart, or who wants to read the story?  All we have to do as writers, is to make certain the easy or safest choice is anything but that.  Just one man's opinion.  But in the end, what do I know?  I'm just a hermit in the woods.  Thanks for your input.

--to be continued--


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## Ronald T. (Oct 29, 2015)

--continuing--

MISKATONIC -- It sounds like your process is much like that of ThinkerX.  And I now believe it is much more common than I realized.   The important thing is that it works.  Any system that works is a great system.  As long as it allows a writer to complete a project, and do so in a way that entertains the reader, who could ask for more?  Thanks for the post, Misky.

ACAPES -- Your post only reinforces my growing belief that the 'hybrid' system is far more prevalent than I had imagined.  Thanks so much.

MYTHOPOET -- If it achieves the desired goal, then you can't go wrong.  I'm a true believer in the concept that the wisest people are those who adapt to the moment.  In other words...if it works, do it.  Thanks so much for your input.

CHESTERAMA -- I couldn't agree with you more.  If you're someone who wishes to maintain a daily word count, then being a pantser is only going to bring you frustration and disappointment.  There are days when I struggle to write only one or two pages.  And there are other days when fifteen pages seem to flow with very little effort.  If I sought a pre-set word count, I would certainly have to change my process, or stop writing.  Because I'm not someone who can live with that much constant emotional pain.  But as I've said before, to each their own.  Thanks for the input.

ADDISON -- Interesting process.  It appears you turn the 'pantser' process upside down.  I find it delightful to learn about all these varying techniques to achieving the same goal: a story that can hold the reader's attention from beginning to end.  Thanks for posting your unusual approach.

DEATHTOTRITE -- Well said, Death.  Overwriting and a loss of directional focus are problems all writers should strive to avoid.  However, I believe that pacing, brevity, and level of detail are all issues of personal preference.  It comes down to what a writer feels most natural with.  Because no author is going to please everyone.  Simply not possible.  Therefore, each writer must write in a way that is most instinctive and comfortable to them.  Fortunately, there are enough varying styles to please every reader's taste.  Thanks for the great input.

--to be continued--


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## Ronald T. (Oct 29, 2015)

--continuing--

INCANUS -- I agree with your statement about the differences.  But, at the same time, I'm also amazed at the degree of  intertwining similarities.  Until I read all these enlightening and thought-provoking posts, I would never have guessed that so many writers use bits and pieces of both techniques.  I assumed it might be the case for a few writers, but never dreamed it took place on such a grand scale.  Although it seems there are basically only two main techniques -- pantsers and outliners -- clearly the most staggering differences come about in how we use the various aspects of these techniques.  Fascinating.  Thanks for the input.

SKIP.KNOX -- I had to laugh out loud when I read your statement about being an olfactory writer.  It's not easy to get a belly laugh out of me, but you did just that.  Very funny.  Thanks.  And I agree with you about not limiting ourselves.  Whether we use one of the senses or all five, whether we're left-brained or right-brained, or whether we're one-eyed or humpbacked, the important thing is that we write a story or novel that keeps the reader turning pages.  That is the ultimate goal.  And as to whether we have a brain or not, in the end, our readers will make that determination for us.  Thanks for the input, Skip.

CHESTERAMA -- I agree.  Research is key in almost everything.  But while doing so, we must never ignore our basic natural tendencies.  What comes natural should always play a role in choosing a technique.  If how you write feels natural, and therefore more comfortable, it will come across in your writing.  If it is forced, that too will come through on the page.  The best route:  acquired knowledge tempered with natural instinct.  But that's just one opinion.  Thanks so much for your input.

                                                    *     *     *

I will continue tomorrow.  But right now, I have a few house chores to take care of.  Until then, my best to you all.

--to be continued--


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## Penpilot (Oct 29, 2015)

Ronald T. said:


> PENPILOT --  However, on your point about not allowing the MC to take the path of least resistance, I must disagree.  As you said, it's instinctive,  therefore, a person is likely to take the easier path.  When they have a choice, why would
> they chose a path that would clearly be more dangerous?  It seems to me, such a decision makes the character seem foolish.  The wise MC would take what he assumes is the easiest path to achieving his goal.  It is up to the author to then prove his sensible choice was not so sensible after all.  It's incumbent on the writer to make his characters appear smart, or who wants to read the story?  All we have to do as writers, is to make certain the easy or safest choice is anything but that.  Just one man's opinion.  But in the end, what do I know?  I'm just a hermit in the woods.  Thanks for your input.



I think there's a slight misunderstanding. We're on the same page on this. When I said we take the path of least resistance, I didn't mean the MC. I mean authors. Instead of having the MC make the hard choice, the choice that, to sum it up, throws the crap into the fan, the author has them make the easier choice. Why? Because it's easier to write, for what ever reason. I'd wager a lot of times it's fear.

This is not to say the easier or simpler choice is always the wrong choice, but it should be chosen because it's the right choice for the story, not because it's easier to write.

For example, put a MC in a no win situation, they have to choose between saving their spouse or their child. To me, the safe and easy choice is save the child. It's the simpler one to write, specifically in the justification. But what if the MC saves the spouse instead? That's a little more tough to write and justify.


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## Ronald T. (Oct 30, 2015)

--continuing--

THINKERX -- I wish I had that envious option.  On our new cars with warranties, I was happy to let others do the work.  But on our older vehicles, like this 1995 Dodge V-10 2500 pickup, I had little choice.  Parts and machine-shop work cost almost $600.  Labor would've been more than an additional $1000.  We didn't have that much extra discretionary cash available at the moment.  That's been the case more than once over the past forty years, and out of necessity, I've saved my wife and I more than $20,000 doing the work myself.  The problem is...it's much harder to do now that I'm older.  I pay a much higher price in pain.  But thanks for the response, X.

SPECTRE -- I assume you're referring to the terminology of 'pantser' and 'outliner'.  If that's the case, then, yes, you have it right.  A pantser makes it all up as he or she goes along, at least for the most part.  And I think being an outliner is self-explanatory.  But you don't have to have a college degree to be a writer.  The truth is, I wasn't much of a reader before I married my lovely wife, Jane, who was a devout reader.  With her encouragement, I became a reader.  But when it came to writing, I didn't know whether to shit or go blind.  My education regarding the art and craft of writing was a choice I made because I wanted to understand how an author could pluck the strings of my emotions with such power.  I eventually began to study writing with a vengeance.  And after thirty-five years, I'm still studying.  I once had a professor say that if I were to spend at least two or more hours a day for four or five years, studying almost any subject, I would have the equivalent education of most college graduates -- at least on that particular subject.  So that's what I did.  However, I became obsessed, and that four or five years has turned into more than thirty-five.  I hope that helps.  And thanks for the great post.

PSYCHOTICK -- A variation of my own technique.  However, I have a fairly solid idea of how my book starts and where it will end.  Although, sometimes the story dictates an ending I hadn't anticipated.  If that happens, I go with the flow.  But what's between the beginning and ending is always a mystery to me until I actually write it.  And like you, I'm often pleasantly surprised.  Twenty-three books published!  Well done, Greg.  Thanks for the input.

GOSPODIN -- The more I read these posts, the more I believe I might be closer to a 'hybrid' than I imagined.  Your process is quite similar to mine, but with personal variations, as it seems all these techniques tend to be.  Truly fascinating.  Thanks for your input.

BRIAN SCOTT ALLEN -- I agree, Brian.  Two ends of the same spectrum with a myriad of subtle combinations between.  As they say...'as long as it works, do it'.  Thanks for your post.

--to be continued--


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## Ronald T. (Oct 31, 2015)

--continuing--

EVOLUTION_REX -- I think I can see your problem here, and it's not an easy one to solve.  But I believe it can be done if you're willing to do the hard work.

First, ask yourself why you want to write your story and what you hope you might achieve.  If your desire to write any particular story isn't strong enough, then you will probably always come up short in finishing anything.  Motivation is all important in almost any major undertaking.  And I can promise you, writing a novel is one of the most difficult undertakings you will ever invest yourself in.

Now, I must admit, I don't know how you can write a story if you don't have at least a small idea of where you want to go with it.  You can always decide where to start, but you must have a rough idea of where you want to go.  It's like taking a long trip in your car.  You have to have a destination.  Even if it's only rough map of the journey, retained only in your minds-eye, you must have a final goal in mind.  Otherwise, which direction do you take?  Without that destination in mind, that's how many writers begin to ramble aimlessly.  That's a fast way to make a reader toss your book aside.  They may not have any idea of where the writer is taking them, but they must have the feeling that the writers knows, or they stop turning pages. 

I think it might help if you sit down and ask yourself what sort of stories you enjoy the most.  Once decided, I believe that is the kind of story you should write.  Then ask yourself what it is about that kind of story that thrills and peaks your interest.  Make a list of those aspects.  Nothing fancy, just a list.  I think deciding on the type of story you want to write and why,  is your first chore.  This list is something you can refer to as needed.

Then, if you're hesitant to sit and write an entire outline, perhaps you could simply imagine each scene, starting with the first, as a 'pantser' might do, but don' write the entire scene -- only visualize it. Write only the most important parts of that scene down on a single piece of paper and set it aside.  Still visualizing where your MC's are and where you think they must go, visualize the next scene.  Write that on a single paper and set it aside.  Most importantly, continue that process always with the final goal in mind until you reach the end of the novel.  And this is key -- do not look at any of those previous pages until the story is finished.  The refinement process comes later.  Finally, put the entire set of pages away for at least two weeks and do something else; preferably, not writing.  Give yourself a break.

Then, when you go back to what you've written, you might use a bit of Svrtnsse's technique, which is to add layer after layer of interesting detail to a structured outline.  Begin an outline with what you've accumulated, recall each scene in increased detail, and start filling out your story.  Do this as many times as necessary.  It is less likely that you will now come up against a blockage that will prevent you from finishing your story, because you already have the essence of the entire story on those individual pages.  It is now simply a process of editing and refining what you have; something all writers must do.

There is no end to the possible paths you might find in reaching the end of your story.  But the most important thing to achieving any goal is -- never give up.

But what do I know?  I'm just a hermit in the woods.

My best to you, Rex.

-Ron-

--to be continued--


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## Ronald T. (Oct 31, 2015)

--continuing--

BRIAN SCOTT ALLEN -- I believe you have the basic essentials to writing any story or novel.  You must have a good image of your MC's and where you want you story to go.  All else can be made up as you go, whether you're a pantser or an outliner.  But the key is having an eventual goal for the story and it's characters.  If not, then the story begins to look like the meanderings of a blind dog in a meat house.  The dog knows there is something there to be had, but has no idea of how to get to it.

So, to me, knowing where you want your story to end is more important than any other element.  You can start a story in an endless number of places, and you can have thousands of details between the first page and last.  But you must know where you're going, or how do you know when you've reached the end?  

Knowing your final destination is essential.  Figure that out, and the rest will come much easier.

KENNYC -- Thanks, Kenny.  I just wish the quality of our writing could be so easily compared.  But for now, being a hermit in the woods will have to suffice.

And thanks for the well-wishes on my truck repair.  If this old body holds out, I'm certain I'll be successful in the end.

STEPHYN BLACKWOOD -- I've never heard of the 'SNOWFLAKE' method before.  But it seems to be working for you, so stay with it.  I think your earlier problem arose due to the same issue I spoke of in my previous posts.  And that is in not having an adequate ending in mind for your story.  Without an en ending in mind, a writer is doomed to meander and wander with nothing to show for the effort.  If you're going to lead a reader on a journey, you must first have a destination, and you must show the reader some sort of progress.  If there's anything I've learned so far, it's that readers are an impatient lot. 

MPGOODWIN -- It sounds like your process is very much like T. Allen. Smith's quote by E. L. Doctorow, about driving at night. I like it.  I hope it works well for you.

--to be continued--


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## evolution_rex (Nov 1, 2015)

I really appreciate the thought out answer, thank you very much.


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## kennyc (Nov 1, 2015)

skip.knox said:


> I started out wearing pants, but now I'm retired. ....
> ....



Me too! We're Twins!


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## Ronald T. (Nov 1, 2015)

--continuing--

SKIP.KNOX -- Although I could easily be wrong, I think I detect a structural set-up problem here.  Hopefully I can explain what I mean in a helpful way. 

From the sound of it, you're being dragged in too many directions at once in your story, and in the process, you eventually lose your focus.  In any story, there should be only one primary MC.  No matter how close or beloved another character might be to the MC, they are always peripheral support characters.  Each story should be one person's tale, and everyone else must become secondary, no matter how important to the story they might be.

Think of THE WIZARD OF OZ.  There are many important characters throughout the adventure, but it is only one person's story --Dorothy's.  Everyone else is there merely to fill out the tale.  The same is true in HIGHNOON.  There are plenty of characters in that story, but they're nothing more than a reaction staff to Gary Cooper's MC role.  The same can be said of Luke Skywalker in STARWARS.  He is the primary character, and everyone else is simply there to flesh out Luke's story.  And it doesn't matter how powerful the other characters might be -- it is still Luke's story. 

As I've mentioned in earlier posts, far too many problems arise due to a loss of focus.  So, right off the bat, it's very important for a writer to establish who their MC is.  Once they have that aspect solidly locked in their minds, it's much more difficult to lose focus.  Of course, focus also requires that a writer be aware of where their MC is going.  And that requires having a rough idea of the story's end, as I mentioned earlier, as well.  To my mind, both elements are vital aspects of solid story telling.

But what do I know?  I'm just a hermit in the woods.

All my best to you, Skip.

MYTHOPOET -- I love your Gene Wolfe quote.  It hits the mark exactly.  Each book has it's own set of problems, and I doesn't matter if it's part of a series or not.  The writer's primary chore is to overcome those problems.

And I agree that there is little or no intrinsic value to the two labels.  Their true value lies in their capacity to make us think about our own writing process and decide if there are ways to better improve it.  There is no perfect way that suits everyone.  But discussions like this give us a chance to see writing in a different light.  Therein lies the value of labels.  Beyond that, I too see little value.  

Thanks for the quote and your thoughtful input.

--to be continued--


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## Ronald T. (Nov 1, 2015)

--continuing--

CHESTERAMA -- Very interesting that you once lived in Grass Valley, and particularly that you did so in a tent.  You must be quite the adventurer.  And my wife and I agree that this is a beautiful area.  We love these foothills, and plan to spend the rest of our lives here.

Back in 1989, we bout 250 acres on the eastern edge of what used to be an 8000 acre hunting club that was once part of the land owned by Beale Air Force Base.  In the early fifties, Beale sold the land to a group of San Francisco millionaires, who then turned it into a private hunting club.  In the seventies, the land was split into parcels of forty acres and larger.  Fortunately, we were able to buy our land before the prices shot so high.

Thanks, Chesterama.  I'm always striving to improve my writing skills.  That's why I joined Mythic Scribes.  I have subscribed to Writer's Digest and The Writer for more than thirty-five years, and probably have over 100 books on the various aspects of the craft.  And even with all that, I'm still eagerly searching for ways to improve my writing.  It is an on-going process, but one I still enjoy.

As you say, it's ever-changing.

Thanks for your helpful input, and for the reference to your time in Grass Valley.  It was very interesting.

*     *     *

This is the end of my seemingly endless responses to all the great posts.  Thank you all for making my first original thread so enjoyable.


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## Xitra_Blud (Nov 6, 2015)

I'm a pantser. Same reason as you. I can remember in school when our English teachers would try to get us to do outlines but I never really got that stuff. I think it has to do with the way people's minds function. Some people prefer and feel more comfortable being organized and others like to pour it out as it is in the vision. I'm sure there is a psychology behind it.


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## Caged Maiden (Nov 6, 2015)

I used to think I was a pantser all the way, but recently, I realized i'm sort of an outliner.

Basically, I jot down a page or two of notes and highlights I NEED to include in the story, then I start writing and see where it takes me.  I called that pantsing, because what else could it be?  But then I read a book called, "Outlining your novel" and I realized that what I'm doing is a sort of fluid outline.  I always called it first draft, but what the book taught me is that outlines need not follow a format riddled with Roman Numerals and letters.  What I do is a detailed summarization of scenes, and that, at its heart, is an outline.

I totally almost smacked myself in the forehead when I realized this, because I always thought outlining was hopelessly beyond my capabilities.  Now, I can take heart in the fact that i'm not incapable of outlining and developing a cohesive story, but that my method requires a certain amount of exploratory writing before solidifying into a concept.  I even wrote an article about this experience: Anticipating Story Length


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## Chessie (Nov 7, 2015)

From this book, one thing I've been trying to get in the habit of doing lately is taking a few minutes before I write to:

-use my outline to determine which scene I'll be writing for the day (my scenes are 2-4k words)

-write a couple of paragraphs expanding the story beats from my outline

-use the Emotions Thesaurus to get an idea of what emotional state the characters in the scene are from the start and where they'll end up on that scale

-jot down actions that stem from those emotions and character flaws

-note down the rising conflict and tension (the hardest part for me)

-write down a few words that I want to use to pepper my language

-add in props, setting, and other world elements to enrich the scene

-end with conflict

This has been helping me tremendously. It takes me about 15 minutes to write all of that down. The result has been increased speed, with putting down 2k words in 1.5 hours. That's an improvement for me, so I know this works and maybe some of you will give it a try. Also, the scene has been alive in my mind when I write and I don't spend all of my time staring at the screen wondering what comes next. I just wanted to share this in case anyone wanted to try it out.


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## thedarknessrising (Nov 7, 2015)

I guess if you want to look at the big picture, I'm an outliner. I try to detail my world as much as possible. I draw lots of maps, design family trees, and write out the histories and politics of my realm. 

But when it comes to my actual story, I just kinda sit down and let the writing just sort of happen.


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## Helen (Nov 10, 2015)

Outlining.


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## Ronald T. (Nov 19, 2015)

Penpilot said:


> I think there's a slight misunderstanding. We're on the same page on this. When I said we take the path of least resistance, I didn't mean the MC. I mean authors. Instead of having the MC make the hard choice, the choice that, to sum it up, throws the crap into the fan, the author has them make the easier choice. Why? Because it's easier to write, for what ever reason. I'd wager a lot of times it's fear.
> 
> This is not to say the easier or simpler choice is always the wrong choice, but it should be chosen because it's the right choice for the story, not because it's easier to write.
> 
> For example, put a MC in a no win situation, they have to choose between saving their spouse or their child. To me, the safe and easy choice is save the child. It's the simpler one to write, specifically in the justification. But what if the MC saves the spouse instead? That's a little more tough to write and justify.



You're absolutely right, Penpilot.  There was definitely a misunderstanding, and I take full responsibility for it.  The fault was entirely my own.  There was more than one choice here, and I chose the wrong one (just a bit of humour intended to lessen my embarrassment).  I do my best to understand what people mean, but sometimes I fail.  Clearly, I did so here.  And for that, I apologize.  I thank you for drawing my attention to your true feelings on the matter.  Now that I know what you actually meant, I must say I fully agree with your point on the issue.  

Thanks for the correction, and for the kind and gentle way you made it known.  I will work harder in the future not to repeat my mistake.

Your hermit friend in the woods,

-Ron-


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