# cliches and stereotypes



## spectre (Nov 27, 2014)

what do you think are the clichÃ©s and stereotypes that author's should try to stay away from in fantasy?


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## Penpilot (Nov 27, 2014)

You don't have to avoid anything. But I do think it's important to recognise when you're using these things, so you can either go with them or try to subvert them in some way. It's about understanding the tools because that's what cliches and stereotypes are. They're tools that can be used poorly or to great effect.


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## spectre (Nov 27, 2014)

nice answer, thanks it's encouraging to hear that


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## glutton (Nov 27, 2014)

'Female lead set up as a token badass only to wind up useless and not be a badass at all in the end.' I mean, I'm sure there are ways it can be done well too but...


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## Tom (Nov 27, 2014)

Old male mentor. Can't the mentor be young? Or female?


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## Guy (Nov 27, 2014)

glutton said:


> 'Female lead set up as a token badass only to wind up useless and not be a badass at all in the end.' I mean, I'm sure there are ways it can be done well too but...


Yeah, that's a big pet peeve of mine, too. Another is annoying characters who are ostensibly on the protagonist's side but are either completely useless or detrimental to the protagonist. They are almost always sidekicks or love interests. They are typically there for comic relief, but this usually fails. Their only possible use is for the audience to cheer when they finally get squashed, but that rarely happens. One of these days I just might write a scene in a story where the protagonist finally loses it and decapitates his annoying sidekick.


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## Feo Takahari (Nov 27, 2014)

glutton said:


> 'Female lead set up as a token badass only to wind up useless and not be a badass at all in the end.' I mean, I'm sure there are ways it can be done well too but...



To try to talk utility:

_How to Train Your Dragon_, specifically the movie, contrasts an FMC who's a living embodiment of the old ways with an MMC who represents the new ways. The FMC is clearly a "strong" character, because brute strength is what their society values. The MMC is the one who ultimately saves them all, because he can think outside the box and recognize when their traditions are holding them back.



Guy said:


> Yeah, that's a big pet peeve of mine, too. Another is annoying characters who are ostensibly on the protagonist's side but are either completely useless or detrimental to the protagonist. They are almost always sidekicks or love interests. They are typically there for comic relief, but this usually fails. Their only possible use is for the audience to cheer when they finally get squashed, but that rarely happens. One of these days I just might write a scene in a story where the protagonist finally loses it and decapitates his annoying sidekick.



Calumon from _Digimon Tamers_ is one of the cutesiest characters I've ever seen. Everything about him is adorable. He's also a good friend, smarter than he lets on, and, in the final arc, the last barrier separating one of the MCs from completely giving in to despair.

Ultimately, I think it's about knowing what you're doing, and making sure you're using things for a reason.


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## cupiscent (Nov 27, 2014)

The problem with using any sort of often-used element in a story - be it the Farmboy Of Destiny or just the term "prophecy" - is that you run the risk of the reader going, "Oh, I've read this story before and am bored now." So use whatever you like, but make sure you include heaps of evidence of how this story is new, different, interesting and must absolutely be read. 

And it should probably be stand-out obvious, because I did my monthly browse of the fantasy shelves at my local bookshop last night, and there were two books I picked up (because they were new) and read the blurb and went, "Blah blah evil demonic forces of darkness, blah blah prophesied heroes, blah blah save them all, yawn." And put them back down again. I can't even tell you who or what they were. I have forgotten them.


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## glutton (Nov 27, 2014)

Tom Nimenai said:


> Old male mentor. Can't the mentor be young? Or female?



I'm reminded of the fact that the two lead 20-something males in my WIP have a 40-something male mentor type figure... who dies. I guess maybe it's mitigated by my female lead who's really the star of the show not having a mentor and being purely self-made? As in survived in the wilderness from age 7 and teaching herself to kill King Kong-sized monsters self-made XD


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## Tom (Nov 27, 2014)

glutton said:


> I'm reminded of the fact that the two lead 20-something males in my WIP have a 40-something male mentor type figure... who dies. I guess maybe it's mitigated by my female lead who's really the star of the show not having a mentor and being purely self-made? As in survived in the wilderness from age 7 and teaching herself to kill King Kong-sized monsters self-made XD



Sweet. I have an old mentor in my WIP, but he doesn't come into the story much, having given his apprentice a "nudge out the door", so to speak. In a parody fantasy I wrote a while ago, there was a 200-year-old wizard who mentored up-and-coming young mages for a living. He had magically de-aged himself to a twentysomething just so he'd have the mental and physical energy to keep up with the kids.


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## cupiscent (Nov 27, 2014)

glutton said:


> I'm reminded of the fact that the two lead 20-something males in my WIP have a 40-something male mentor type figure... who dies.


Going to be played by Liam Neeson in the movie?


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## glutton (Nov 27, 2014)

cupiscent said:


> Going to be played by Liam Neeson in the movie?



He's a balding dude with a ponytail who has no fighting scenes and dies a chapter after actually appearing, so probably not lol.


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## IrelandBeaver (Nov 28, 2014)

Tom Nimenai said:


> Old male mentor. Can't the mentor be young? Or female?



I actually did that with my latest story. When I was first thinking about it, I did have an older, male mentor for my MC, but I decided to change the mentor character to be the MC's cousin, who is a female and is about 5 years older than the MC. I based her character on this group of girls who were in the same youth group that I was in. They were 4-5 years older than me, and they treated me as a little brother, and helped to guide me through some difficult times in my life. As I was writing this mentor character, I really wanted her to be a reflection of those girls.


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## glutton (Nov 28, 2014)

On that note, in one of my older works the male MC's love interest, despite being younger than him, serves in somewhat of a mentor-like role helping him become more confident and independent and 'spread his wings', while also training him to be a better fighter. He's 21 and she's 17...


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## Tom (Nov 28, 2014)

Another cliche I don't like is "peasants have no innate worth as themselves; they have to be secretly descended from royalty to count for anything." 

I know authors usually don't mean it that way--they just want it to be a surprising revelation for their little peasant hero--but I find it kind of insulting. Sure, I'm a working-class member who happens to have been nobility a few centuries back in the "old country", but that doesn't mean I'm worth anything as a person only because my however-many-greats-granddaddy was prince or baron or baronet of some tiny German state.

A fantasy hero's worth should be measured in his own achievements, not whose DNA he shares.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Nov 28, 2014)

Guy said:


> One of these days I just might write a scene in a story where the protagonist finally loses it and decapitates his annoying sidekick.


Aww… I hate it when the sidekick gets decapitated.

Actually, I like the sidekicks who are actually more than just useful, but are the reason the hero gets through some challenges. Green Hornet's Kato. Inspector Clouseau's Kato. I'm sure there are sidekicks not named Kato who are great examples of what I'm trying to get at.

The Internet knows everything, so here's a top ten list which includes one Kato and nine non-Katos. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by who made #1.


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## spectre (Nov 28, 2014)

i have an old "wisdomatic" in the intro chapter to my story. he isn't to play a huge role, although he may reappear into the story a short while after the initial blurb. he's not even really supposed to be wisdomatic, but may come off that way because one of the MC's (I think that means main characters, you guys use a lot of ackronymns I am unfamiliar with) is young and still awed by simple common sense. the old sage is actually just established insofar as his reality goes, forced back into the mix of things.


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## Penpilot (Nov 28, 2014)

You can't avoid the mentor character. Being mentored is a significant part of life. Where that mentorship comes from can vary but it's there even if we're not aware of it. The obvious mentors are paternal figures mom/dad/grand dad/grand mother. But friends mentor, teachers mentor. Even books, tv, and movies can mentor.


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## Tom (Nov 28, 2014)

I'm just sayin', why does the mentor have to be an old white guy?


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## Mythopoet (Nov 28, 2014)

Tom Nimenai said:


> Old male mentor. Can't the mentor be young?



Personally, I would find a young mentor suspicious. Unless there was some REALLY good reason for the young person to be wiser than their years (for instance, if they possessed the memories of all their ancestors, like the Dune twins) then a young mentor just wouldn't be believable to me. It's a simple fact of life that most people accumulate knowledge and wisdom only through time and experience. Thus most young people aren't fit to be mentors. If you wanted to do something different and unexpected with a mentor character, like having them be young, then you'd have to put some work into establishing and developing them as a character but many mentor characters in stories simply aren't important enough or aren't around long enough to make it worthwhile. Thus having an old mentor is an easy way to make it instantly believable.


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## cupiscent (Nov 28, 2014)

Depends on the point of the mentor. The mentor doesn't have to be able to coach you in _everything_ about life necessarily. So if our Hero has been learning how to farm, but Miss Ninja over here has been trained from infancy to kill people with her bare hands, even if they are the same age - or she's younger - she can be his mentor in the art of killing people.

My next point would be: if the mentor character isn't around long enough, or important enough to warrant deep character development... why is that character there are all? Make it a book. Or better: _make_ it important.


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## DeathtoTrite (Nov 28, 2014)

Look at tvtropes- they're great about this. Its really all about how you pull it off.


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## Tom (Nov 28, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> Personally, I would find a young mentor suspicious. Unless there was some REALLY good reason for the young person to be wiser than their years (for instance, if they possessed the memories of all their ancestors, like the Dune twins) then a young mentor just wouldn't be believable to me. It's a simple fact of life that most people accumulate knowledge and wisdom only through time and experience. Thus most young people aren't fit to be mentors.



I have some reason to doubt that. My fencing coach is in his early thirties, but he has a vast knowledge of fencing techniques and experience in all three sport fencing disciplines. Of course, he started fencing at the age of four, so that point may be moot.


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## Mythopoet (Nov 28, 2014)

cupiscent said:


> My next point would be: if the mentor character isn't around long enough, or important enough to warrant deep character development... why is that character there are all? Make it a book. Or better: _make_ it important.



Sometimes a mentor is only as important as what they pass on to the mentee. Many kinds of characters are only as important as the interaction they have with the main character/s. There's nothing wrong with that. And there's no point spending a lot of time developing a character like that. It just depends on what kind of story you're telling.


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## Mythopoet (Nov 28, 2014)

Tom Nimenai said:


> I have some reason to doubt that. My fencing coach is in his early thirties, but he has a vast knowledge of fencing techniques and experience in all three sport fencing disciplines. Of course, he started fencing at the age of four, so that point may be moot.



So he has 26 years of experience. That's the important part. And of course "30" is pretty old by the standards of many, many fantasy stories. (Says the 32 year old who still loves watching anime about 15 year olds kicking butt.)


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## DeathtoTrite (Nov 28, 2014)

Tom Nimenai said:


> I have some reason to doubt that. My fencing coach is in his early thirties, but he has a vast knowledge of fencing techniques and experience in all three sport fencing disciplines. Of course, he started fencing at the age of four, so that point may be moot.



But he doesn't really fit the mentor stereotype- a wise teacher who imparts wisdom to the MC. Technical skill and knowledge aren't really the main point of the wise old mentor archetype.


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## Svrtnsse (Nov 28, 2014)

(I think) I'm with Mythopoet. 

Being a mentor means having knowledge to pass on to the mentored. Knowledge is acquired over time and the older the mentor is the longer they will have had to acquire the required knowledge. 
Like in the case of the fencing coach, the mentor may not necessarily have to be older than the student, but they still have significantly more years of experience in their chosen field. So even in that case the mentor is "older" in their field of expertise.


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## Tom (Nov 28, 2014)

Haha...thirty is by no means "old".

That brings me to another cliche I don't like--besides the ubiquitous Old Mentor, anyone "good" in fantasy has to be young and beautiful. It's the "bad" people who are old and ugly. Way to judge on appearances. And speaking of that, there's the blond=good, dark-haired=bad cliche. Too many people are biased in the favor of my own hair color! There need to be more evil blonds! (Hey, I'll be the first to join their ranks.)


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## Mythopoet (Nov 28, 2014)

Tom Nimenai said:


> That brings me to another cliche I don't like--besides the ubiquitous Old Mentor, anyone "good" in fantasy has to be young and beautiful. It's the "bad" people who are old and ugly. Way to judge on appearances. And speaking of that, there's the blond=good, dark-haired=bad cliche. Too many people are biased in the favor of my own hair color! There need to be more evil blonds! (Hey, I'll be the first to join their ranks.)



How odd. Is this really a stereotype of fantasy literature? Most fantasy books I have read and enjoyed left most of the characters' physical traits up to the minds of the reader, usually only giving a few key details. It seems to me like this would be more of a problem with visual media, if anything.


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## Mythopoet (Nov 28, 2014)

Here's the thing:

cliches and stereotypes, like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder (or mind of the reader). What one person considers "cliche" will be exactly what another person likes best. For this reason, I always like to say there is no such thing as a true "cliche" or "stereotype" in literature. What is tired and worn out for one reader will be new and fresh for another reader. What one reader hates will be what another reader loves. And besides, there are always new readers being born and growing up and encountering all the things that others find "cliche" for the very first time.

You simply can't avoid all the things that every reader finds to be cliche. There would be nothing left to write. Everything you can possibly write is going to be hated by some readers. Your job as a writer is not to worry about that. You just focus on writing stories and connecting to the group of readers who will like them.


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## Svrtnsse (Nov 28, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> How odd. Is this really a stereotype of fantasy literature? Most fantasy books I have read and enjoyed left most of the characters' physical traits up to the minds of the reader, usually only giving a few key details. It seems to me like this would be more of a problem with visual media, if anything.



I think there's such a thing as perceived stereotypes. Things that we as "part of the scene" have come to take for granted and which we consider commonplace and stereotypical even though it perhaps actually isn't.

It's not uncommon that there's talk of Tolkien rip-offs and how there's so many works that are just derivatives of his creation, but when it comes down to it, there aren't as many as it first seemed (I'm sure there are many, just not as many). I think there was a thread here on that very topic not long ago, and the works that were mentioned there weren't all that many.


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## Mythopoet (Nov 28, 2014)

I definitely agree with that, Svrt. I think most of these cliches and stereotypes and derivative works are in readers' minds alone. Most of the time calling something cliche really only means that you don't personally like it.


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## Tom (Nov 28, 2014)

I've been pondering this subject lately, and I think a lot of the cliches and stereotypes we readers complain about are actually falling out of favor. In the last few years, I think we've seen the next generation of fantasy writers emerge and fresh ideas come into play. Case in point: when I was in middle school, almost all fantasy fiction written for that age group seemed to be Tolkien wannabe tripe. Now, however, I look at the brand-new middle-grade and YA fantasy books coming out and say, "Aw man, I want me some of that originality!"


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## Guy (Nov 28, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> Here's the thing:
> 
> cliches and stereotypes, like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder (or mind of the reader). What one person considers "cliche" will be exactly what another person likes best. For this reason, I always like to say there is no such thing as a true "cliche" or "stereotype" in literature. What is tired and worn out for one reader will be new and fresh for another reader. What one reader hates will be what another reader loves. And besides, there are always new readers being born and growing up and encountering all the things that others find "cliche" for the very first time.
> 
> You simply can't avoid all the things that every reader finds to be cliche. There would be nothing left to write. Everything you can possibly write is going to be hated by some readers. Your job as a writer is not to worry about that. You just focus on writing stories and connecting to the group of readers who will like them.


Reminds me of the time I saw a critic complaining the movie Snow White was using tired and worn cliches. My first thought was that, yeah, to a middle aged guy the story was cliched and predictable, but to the target audience of small children it was fresh and new and exciting.


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## Helen (Nov 28, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> Personally, I would find a young mentor suspicious.



It's not uncommon. 

e.g. Tom's younger sister in (500) Days of Summer


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## Mythopoet (Nov 28, 2014)

Helen said:


> It's not uncommon.
> 
> e.g. Tom's younger sister in (500) Days of Summer



I've never seen that. But being over 30 and knowing that even though I have always been quite a smart person, I am much, much wiser now than when I was young, young mentors scream "bullshit" to me. The minute some teen or young adult tries acting like they have the wisdom of life experience I just scoff and can't take it seriously. That's just my opinion though.


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## glutton (Nov 28, 2014)

What about a sheltered 20 (or 25, or 30) year old being mentored and taught how to handle real hardship by a 15 (or 20, or 25) year old who's been a soldier since the day they could pick up a gun/spear?

Also I mean sheltered relatively, older mentee could be a soldier but gets transported into a much more savage dimension full of monsters and younger mentor is someone has survived there on their own for years...


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## Helen (Nov 28, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> I've never seen that. But being over 30 and knowing that even though I have always been quite a smart person, I am much, much wiser now than when I was young, young mentors scream "bullshit" to me. The minute some teen or young adult tries acting like they have the wisdom of life experience I just scoff and can't take it seriously. That's just my opinion though.



Depends on the exact function.

If you want to learn the Force, then sure it helps to have a Jedi master who's been doing it for 900 years.

But if you want to teach a moral lesson, then that's age-independent. In _The Imitation Game_, Keira Knightley's character is a young lady who is on the right moral side.

I'm saying that the mask isn't as important as the function.


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## Rufanacious (Nov 29, 2014)

> But if you want to teach a moral lesson, then that's age-independent. In The Imitation Game, Keira Knightley's character is a young lady who is on the right moral side.
> 
> I'm saying that the mask isn't as important as the function.



But surely we're straying from the definition of 'mentor', then. I mean, a young child in a story could be the one who teaches the hero an important moral lesson, or even turns their whole outlook around and so on... but I wouldn't classify that role as a 'mentor' at all.

@glutton - Although I can totally imagine a disoriented, naive 20-something character encountering a hardened, savvy, warrior type teen - when thrown into the teen's monster-filled world - who then teaches them (probably, bluntly and with much violence and swearing) how to handle the danger and stay alive. (!!!) (Sounds kinda awesome!)


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## glutton (Nov 29, 2014)

Rufanacious said:


> @glutton - Although I can totally imagine a disoriented, naive 20-something character encountering a hardened, savvy, warrior type teen - when thrown into the teen's monster-filled world - who then teaches them (probably, bluntly and with much violence and swearing) how to handle the danger and stay alive. (!!!) (Sounds kinda awesome!)



It's a pretty common trope in my stories for the male lead to be a trained warrior or decent MMA fighter (urban fantasy) and meet a younger or same age female lead who's one of the baddest fighters on the planet - although they don't always serve as mentors, they usually at least teach the guy to fight better. XD


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## Helen (Nov 30, 2014)

Rufanacious said:


> But surely we're straying from the definition of 'mentor', then. I mean, a young child in a story could be the one who teaches the hero an important moral lesson, or even turns their whole outlook around and so on... but I wouldn't classify that role as a 'mentor' at all.



She certainly doesn't look like a mentor.

But the more you analyze her role and her influence on the change, the more she starts to look like one. She's more than just the romantic interest.

But my general point is that it's not what the character looks like but what they do that defines their archetype.


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## Queshire (Nov 30, 2014)

I feel that I must disagree. When it comes to fiction I feel that an archetype, a trope really, is a frequently recurring image in mass media which can safely be presumed that the consumer is familiar with. The function of it is one part of the archetype but it's not the only point. One character can teach another, but I don't think that's enough to qualify as a mentor.


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## Helen (Nov 30, 2014)

Queshire said:


> I feel that I must disagree. When it comes to fiction I feel that an archetype, a trope really, is a frequently recurring image in mass media which can safely be presumed that the consumer is familiar with. The function of it is one part of the archetype but it's not the only point. One character can teach another, but I don't think that's enough to qualify as a mentor.



I don't think Morpheus is a mentor because he fits an image; he's a mentor because he helps Neo change, he helps him believe, he takes him over to the other side.

There's definitely an image association and when the image and role match it's easy to identify. But when the image doesn't match, doesn't mean the role has changed.


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## spectre (Nov 30, 2014)

lol, you guys are obsessed with mentors


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## Penpilot (Nov 30, 2014)

From the wikipedia page on mentorship Mentorship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Mentorship is a personal developmental relationship in which a more experienced or more knowledgeable person helps to guide a less experienced or less knowledgeable person. The mentor may be older or younger, but have a certain area of expertise. It is a learning and development partnership between someone with vast experience and someone who wants to learn.





> "Mentoring" is a process that always involves communication and is relationship based, but its precise definition is elusive.



I have respected writing books that have very broad definitions of what a mentor is. 

In one book, 45 Master Characters, it states the following.

- The Mentor freely offers advice and wants to be involved in the hero's problems

There are negative mentors. Eg Gordon Gecko in Wallstree.

There are positive mentors. Eg Morpheus. 

Other examples.

- The old highschool teacher the hero tracks down to ask advice

- Someone accomplished in the hero's line of work who takes them under his wing

- The expert on whatever information the hero needs, as long as he's excited to share the information and help.


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## cupiscent (Nov 30, 2014)

Pondering this... one could make an argument that in the film _Leon_, Natalie Portman is the mentor to the main character.


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