# Harpies?



## Evilyn (Feb 9, 2012)

Okay I know it's not the idea it's how you tell it...however I am currently reading through my WIP and at the start I have these Harpies that live in a forest and are always at war with my forest tribe but now I am thinking maybe I should change them into something else as I don't know how overdone harpies are..

I am a firm believer in how the story is written and not whether it has cliches or not but I am suddenly doubting myself. My boyfriend thinks I am over analysing..it has come to that stage now where I am focusing on really small things like changing the name of a character and I spend 2 hours trying to invent a better name when I could have been writing. Sorry if I am rambling..

Evi


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## sashamerideth (Feb 9, 2012)

I personally don't think harpies are overdone if that's any good to you... though I only remember female harpies, and then they were underdeveloped, shadowy creatures. If you make more of them then tree should be no problems at all.


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## Reaver (Feb 9, 2012)

In my opinion, harpies aren't used enough.  I say keep 'em in there!


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## Graham Irwin (Feb 9, 2012)

I agree with Reaver, harpies aren't used that much in what I've read either.

For some reason the creatures in the Colosseum scene of Star Wars Attack of the Clones make me think of harpies, all swarming and shrieking and such. 

Or maybe they are insectoid. I ramble.


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## San Cidolfus (Feb 9, 2012)

How in-depth are you going with these harpies?  Are they just faceless antagonists, or do you intend to show the story from their perspective?


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## Azza (Feb 9, 2012)

Go for the harpies! Your idea sounds really interesting and I don't think they're over-used. As you mentioned, it's how you write that counts. Make sure you give your harpie characters clear characteristics and stick with them and it'll work out fine I'm sure! Good luck with it!


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## Scott Staddy (Feb 9, 2012)

I agree with the group. Harpies are under used and when they are, its usually in a negative way. Kind of like soulless creature bent on torturing men lol. It sounds like you have potential to really give them life in your story.  Unless you mean them to be soulless creatures bent on destroying your forest tribe just because they want to.


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## Acra of the Wind (Feb 9, 2012)

Even if they were merely evil because that is in their nature or there is some other complicated reason, I think that Harpies are a good idea, I haven't seen them that much in fantasy so it isn't too cliche either.  Although I'm not an expert.


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## Evilyn (Feb 10, 2012)

Thanks guys, you have made me feel a lot better.. I think I was just having sudden doubts. 

The scene I have written so far is firstly from the harpies perspective, they are evil but again it's how you perceive evil, they just have their own ways of life which just happens to include eating human flesh.. My forest tribe have long been at war with them over teritory of the forest. I have a Queen Harpie that all the others are devoted to and would gladly give their lifes for and her character is the one I have written most about so far.

Evi


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## Reaver (Feb 10, 2012)

Evilyn said:


> Thanks guys, you have made me feel a lot better.. I think I was just having sudden doubts.



You're welcome! Are you going to post your WIP on the Showcase? It would be cool to read some of it.



> I have a Queen Harpie that all the others are devoted to and would gladly give their lifes for and her character is the one I have written most about so far.


So your harpies are like ants or bees in that respect. A problem I ran into in my WIP when it came to harpies is procreation. Harpies are usually depicted as being female, so I created male harpies who are much smaller & posesses vestigial wings. Their sole purpose for existing is making little harpies. How did you get past this hurdle?


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## Evilyn (Feb 11, 2012)

Reaver said:


> You're welcome! Are you going to post your WIP on the Showcase? It would be cool to read some of it.
> 
> 
> So your harpies are like ants or bees in that respect. A problem I ran into in my WIP when it came to harpies is procreation. Harpies are usually depicted as being female, so I created male harpies who are much smaller & posesses vestigial wings. Their sole purpose for existing is making little harpies. How did you get past this hurdle?



Well I have loosely based them on Amazons, they conduct raids on my human forest tribe and capture the men for procreation then fed upon them after


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## Klee Shay (Feb 11, 2012)

It sounds like you've got your harpies pretty well worked. As long as you don't stereotype them, I agree with the others, go for it.

Making them unique from other versions shouldn't be too hard since harpies aren't often used. If they have their own problems and personalities your readers will enjoy reading about them.

This is just an example of the way one author I've read handled the issue. In Anne Bishop's *'Black Jewels'* books, a harpy was any witch that was violently killed by a man. They were mean, dangerous and had, justifiably, a decided dislike for men. Even the Lord of Hell had a healthy respect for them  

Just something to consider.


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## Devor (Feb 11, 2012)

Evilyn said:


> Okay I know it's not the idea it's how you tell it...however I am currently reading through my WIP and at the start I have these Harpies that live in a forest and are always at war with my forest tribe but now I am thinking maybe I should change them into something else as I don't know how overdone harpies are..



I'm going to take a different point of view than everyone else, but I'm doing so more so that you can hear a different point of view than because I really, really mean it.

As others have mentioned, Harpies aren't really overdone in Fantasy, but I think there's a reason for that.  I just don't think they're very compelling.  It's my understanding that the Harpy in modern fantasy is typically a savagely violent bird-woman, who like the Amazons, reproduce by copulating with their victims.  As the random monster they're more creepy than they frightening, and as a society they're rather flat.  And with the variety of winged-creatures we see nowadays, if you develop them much from that concept, they're no longer really Harpies.

I mean it's up to you, and I don't know how much you've really developed your concept or how well you're able to pull it off.  And I probably wouldn't have said anything except to give you a different opinion.  But depending on your setting, if you want a more versatile winged creature, I might recommend something based loosely on the Tengu demon from Japan.  I think a Western reader is probably unfamiliar enough with the concept that you can alter them any way you please to create a more original concept.


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## Evilyn (Feb 11, 2012)

Devor said:


> I'm going to take a different point of view than everyone else, but I'm doing so more so that you can hear a different point of view than because I really, really mean it.
> 
> As others have mentioned, Harpies aren't really overdone in Fantasy, but I think there's a reason for that.  I just don't think they're very compelling.  It's my understanding that the Harpy in modern fantasy is typically a savagely violent bird-woman, who like the Amazons, reproduce by copulating with their victims.  As the random monster they're more creepy than they frightening, and as a society they're rather flat.  And with the variety of winged-creatures we see nowadays, if you develop them much from that concept, they're no longer really Harpies.
> 
> I mean it's up to you, and I don't know how much you've really developed your concept or how well you're able to pull it off.  And I probably wouldn't have said anything except to give you a different opinion.  But depending on your setting, if you want a more versatile winged creature, I might recommend something based loosely on the Tengu demon from Japan.  I think a Western reader is probably unfamiliar enough with the concept that you can alter them any way you please to create a more original concept.



Thanks Devor for your interesting point of view, I will investigate the Tengu idea, while I am rather fond of the harpies I appreciate your point that they aren't that compelling for everyone and thats why I created this thread so thanks 

Evi


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## Hans (Feb 14, 2012)

Devor said:


> and as a society they're rather flat.


What makes you think that? Just because not much has been written about harpy society doesn't mean it could not be interesting. Of course, if you only take the original three, Aello, Celaeno and Ocypete there is not much of a society. But your comment already has reproduction resulting in other harpies, so any society could be built.


> if you develop them much from that concept, they're no longer really Harpies.


How much have fantasy harpies in common with mythological harpies of Greek anyways?


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## Wiggles2021 (Feb 14, 2012)

I struggled with the same thing, about Orcs, and dwarves, and weather they are over done or weather mine fit in with the status quo, until i decided to keep them in there, but dont actually call them "dwarves". I made up a new name for a "short, bearded, humanlike people that live in the moutains. " dont think if this helps at all....


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## Devor (Feb 15, 2012)

Hans said:


> What makes you think that? Just because not much has been written about harpy society doesn't mean it could not be interesting.



I think it would be flat because, being a simple and crude society that lacks in males, there are far fewer relationship dynamics which can exist between characters of that society.  Most stories about the Amazons inevitably connect the Amazonian characters to people outside their society, but that would be harder to do because of the nature of a harpy.  There are fewer stories to be told because of the harpy's key distinctions as a race, and I think their lack of prevalence in the genre demonstrates that.

I also said they were creepy.




> Of course, if you only take the original three, Aello, Celaeno and Ocypete there is not much of a society. But your comment already has reproduction resulting in other harpies, so any society could be built.
> 
> How much have fantasy harpies in common with mythological harpies of Greek anyways?



Who said anything about the Greeks?  I don't think I'd pick up a book with harpies on the cover, but I'd be more inclined to if the book was about Greek mythology.


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## Ghost (Feb 15, 2012)

Evilyn said:


> I have these Harpies that live in a forest and are always at war with my forest tribe but now I am thinking maybe I should change them into something else as I don't know how overdone harpies are..
> 
> I am a firm believer in how the story is written and not whether it has cliches or not but I am suddenly doubting myself.



I haven't come across many harpies, and the few I've read about get little screen time. (Or is that page time?) I _have_ seen fantasy cultures focused solely on war. If your harpies are developed beyond the "bloodthirsty barbarian" stereotype, don't worry about it.

I think you should push ahead. Doubt is normal.



Devor said:


> I think it would be flat because, being a simple and crude society that lacks in males, there are far fewer relationship dynamics which can exist between characters of that society.



I don't think this is true at all. The lack or dearth of males doesn't mean the harpies can't have a functioning, complex society. Thinking of any setting where one gender is the majority, I see other dynamics and conflicts coming to the forefront, like subordinate/superior, mentor/pupil, comrades-in-arms, outcasts, friendships, family, etc. You just have to put thought into what the group and individual goals are and what the hierarchy is like, and go from there.

The thing that makes me leery isn't their race but the "always at war" idea. That sort of thing tends toward "flat" very easily. I'd think they'd come up with sneakier ways of getting human flesh and, ahem, donors. It seems odd to fight and incur casualties in order to procreate even if you get a roast human sandwich out of it. Either the harpies don't die easily, the forest tribe sucks at fighting, or the queen lays a lot of eggs, otherwise the harpy death/birth rate wouldn't be sustainable.



Devor said:


> There are fewer stories to be told because of the harpy's key distinctions as a race, and I think their lack of prevalence in the genre demonstrates that.
> 
> I also said they were creepy.



Only speculating here, but I think the scarcity of harpies is more about which tradition they come from, and the fact that they're not sexy or romantic. I see more Norse and Celtic based stories than Greek, even though Greek myths seem to be better known. People like Greek gods well enough, but I don't an awful lot of Greek beasties and critters roaming about.

For the record, I'm a fan of creepy.


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## The Grey Sage (Feb 15, 2012)

> People like Greek gods well enough, but I don't an awful lot of Greek beasties and critters roaming about.


Unfortunately this is true, *EPIC POSE* *but we can change that!* (cape blows in the wind)...


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## Evilyn (Feb 16, 2012)

Devor said:


> I think it would be flat because, being a simple and crude society that lacks in males, there are far fewer relationship dynamics which can exist between characters of that society.  Most stories about the Amazons inevitably connect the Amazonian characters to people outside their society, but that would be harder to do because of the nature of a harpy.  There are fewer stories to be told because of the harpy's key distinctions as a race, and I think their lack of prevalence in the genre demonstrates that.
> 
> I also said they were creepy.
> 
> ...


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## Evilyn (Feb 16, 2012)

Ouroboros said:


> I haven't come across many harpies, and the few I've read about get little screen time. (Or is that page time?) I _have_ seen fantasy cultures focused solely on war. If your harpies are developed beyond the "bloodthirsty barbarian" stereotype, don't worry about it.
> 
> I think you should push ahead. Doubt is normal.
> 
> ...





Thanks for the comments Ouroboros, I have decided to push on 

I don't think I explained it very well when I said they are at constant war, its not an all out open battle. These tribes live in the forest, a very large one at that so the Harpies nests or whatever you want to refer them as, are spread out. They tend to stay hidden and then do night time raids on my forest tribe taking men. The Harpies are dying out though which is why their main priority is taking men to procreate with so that they rebuild their empire as such.

Evi


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## InsanityStrickenWriter (Feb 16, 2012)

It definately would sound interesting to me. Sounds wonderfully sinister. Who's perspective are you going to be writing from? My hope would be that you'll write from the harpies' side, which would definately add a lot more of a unique element than writing from the human tribe, which is more, well, 'Oh dear, monsters, we must kill monsters.' Which has been done a lot. Well, probably not in _that_ calm a manner.

Perhaps to make the harpies more relatable to the reader, (should you be basing the perspective from their side of things), you might want to start off the tale at a point in time where they're weak, (which I think you've already stated is the case), and that the reason why they're weak may very simply be that they have refused to kidnap and kill. Over time, their numbers have thinned, with no new births, and the human tribe has grown in the peace, (though possibly split into multiple factions). The harpies would essentially have no choice but to start kidnapping again, lest they want their society to die out. However, indulging one instinct encourages others, and perhaps it's not actually rebuilding the society, but corrupting it. 

It could also be a possibility to, at least at first, have the kidnapping more subtle than night raids. After such a long time of peace, perhaps it wouldn't be far fetched to have some harpies living with the humans, perhaps in an ambassador sort of role. When the harpies decide to resume kidnapping, it would likely start off at a slow pace anyway, testing the waters and getting a feel for it. The ambassadors would be in excellent positions to carry out the occasional kidnapping. They may even have humans help them do it. 

Lot's of potential, thought I'd offer what my thoughts on it would be


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## Devor (Feb 16, 2012)

Evilyn said:


> Thank you again for the comments, I was really struggling with this as I wanted to make them interesting but with you're help I think I have added a lot more to them.
> 
> Evi



Good luck with your story.  Despite my remarks, I'll be happy to think you can pull it off.


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