# frozen leather?



## Graylorne (Aug 18, 2012)

A small question, but I can't seem to find the answer.

Here is this wagon, covered with a leather hood (Vikings wouldn't use linen, I'd say)
The wagen broke down and stands outside in the forest in intermittent heavy snowfall, with temperatures of -25 Celsius or lower.
Now someone wants to remove the hood. Will the leather be frozen stiff? Will it fold? Will it break?


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## T.Allen.Smith (Aug 18, 2012)

I would think it would depend on how the leather was treated. Oiled or moisturizer leather should hold up okay against cold and moisture. I'm not an expert on leather though.


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## Shockley (Aug 18, 2012)

The Vikings absolutely had access to and made linen. Most material of that nature would have been wool or leather, granted, but linen was available. 

 The sails on the longboats would have been primarily linen, as would a good portion of their clothes.


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## Svrtnsse (Aug 18, 2012)

With little to no actual experience of this I'd say it's unlikely that it would crack. I'd be happy to bow to authority on the subject though.


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## Shockley (Aug 18, 2012)

I took a few seconds to think about this, and remembered George Mallory.

 Mallory died while climbing (or, arguably, descending) Mount Everest. While the majority of his uniform consisted of wool and linen (really, the most effective thing for cold weather survival - Mallory was killed by a wound to the head while falling), there were leather accouterments including his goggles, his boots, his wallet, etc. Mallory died in 1924 and was recovered in 1999 - the leather was fine.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Aug 18, 2012)

Svrtnsse said:
			
		

> With little to no actual experience of this I'd say it's unlikely that it would crack. I'd be happy to bow to authority on the subject though.



Poorly treated or untreated leather definitely cracks if it freezes....


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## Graylorne (Aug 18, 2012)

So it could be leather, linen, or even wool.

Now this was a rich heiress' bridal wagon, with a carved body, and it had to be a luxurious and water-tight covering. They lived in the North (alternate Scandinavia), where there'd perhaps be little room for flax. Then it would have to be imported either from the south or from overseas. There's plenty of large animals (reindeer, bear etc), that's what made me think of leather. Oiled leather, like T.Allen.Smith suggested. They will have tanned it first, I'd suppose. And if that Mr Mallory's stuff stayed good for 75 years, this hood will keep for a week. 

Right, that will be the answer then. Thank you!


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## JadedSidhe (Aug 18, 2012)

It would depend on how the leather was treated, its thickness and its condition before it was frozen would come into play, but because it is treated skin, if it could be folded, it would tear. The thinner the skin, the more apt it would be to breaking, but it'd be a ragged break, if that makes sense.


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## Shockley (Aug 18, 2012)

Actually, Sweden alone has quite a bit of arable land. You're looking at roughly 2.6 million hectares today, with substantially more in the past. That's not counting Norway (which, admittedly, is very rocky and less friendly to agriculture) and Denmark (which is warmer and less rocky than the other two, respectively). 

 Sweden, which is my area of real expertise, sits right in the middle of a gulf stream, so it actually gets fairly warm there. It's average temperature in July is about seventy degrees (farenheit). While the northern reaches have winters as long as seven months, the winter around Stockholm is only about two months long (and the summer twice as long).

 Growing flax would not be a problem, and is historically attested to. 

 I'm not trying to push you towards flax, mind you. If you're doing your own world, none of this applies - but if this is just alternate (as I'm led to believe), you should take into account real life weather patterns.


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## Akahige (Aug 18, 2012)

I have a good bit of experience working with leather.  I would assume that the leather would be heavily waxed since it would be intended for outdoor use.  This would cause the snow to simply collect and fall off or else in a wet snow, to bead up and roll off the leather.  Now if they were negligent in treating it to the point that it didn't repel the water, it could very likely get soaked and become brittle.  The brittleness would likely not come from the leather being frozen though, but rather from the natural oils drying out.  This would result in weakness around the riveted or anchored points which would be the most likely sources for tears.


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## Graylorne (Aug 19, 2012)

JadedSidhe said:


> It would depend on how the leather was treated, its thickness and its condition before it was frozen would come into play, but because it is treated skin, if it could be folded, it would tear. The thinner the skin, the more apt it would be to breaking, but it'd be a ragged break, if that makes sense.



It wouldn't have to be folded, could be rolled up. Only transported on a large sled. Besides, the people who took it are fugitives, who want to use it as a tent. Even leaking leather would be better than a snow hole in the open, I'd say.





Shockley said:


> Actually, Sweden alone has quite a bit of arable land. You're looking at roughly 2.6 million hectares today, with substantially more in the past. That's not counting Norway (which, admittedly, is very rocky and less friendly to agriculture) and Denmark (which is warmer and less rocky than the other two, respectively).
> 
> Sweden, which is my area of real expertise, sits right in the middle of a gulf stream, so it actually gets fairly warm there. It's average temperature in July is about seventy degrees (farenheit). While the northern reaches have winters as long as seven months, the winter around Stockholm is only about two months long (and the summer twice as long).
> 
> ...



My world is alternate, but the geography is the same. The area I'm talking about is in the north of Norway, around Tromso, early 10th century. I'm thinking they'd use mostly local products. 
I remember having been to Sweden once, a very long time ago. A beautiful country.





Akahige said:


> I have a good bit of experience working with leather.  I would assume that the leather would be heavily waxed since it would be intended for outdoor use.  This would cause the snow to simply collect and fall off or else in a wet snow, to bead up and roll off the leather.  Now if they were negligent in treating it to the point that it didn't repel the water, it could very likely get soaked and become brittle.  The brittleness would likely not come from the leather being frozen though, but rather from the natural oils drying out.  This would result in weakness around the riveted or anchored points which would be the most likely sources for tears.



The cover is new, special made for the wagon that was a bridal gift, so they'll have tried to make it the best they could. It hasn't been out in the open for more than a fortnight, though it was in winter.


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