# Creating Interesting Societies



## Devor (Dec 4, 2011)

So reading and thinking about the conversation in another thread about Creating Interesting Cities, it occurred to me that no city is entirely a bubble unto itself.  It's a large and important cog in the broader society.

So how do you go about creating interesting nations and societies?


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## Leif GS Notae (Dec 4, 2011)

Depends on the terrain and the borders provided. I have to look at a map to really get a good feel, though it can always change.

The main thing to think of is how big it is, has it been bigger before or is it on the verge of being absorbed or dissolved. As with all societies and cities; there is a growth, stagnation, reduction, rebirth cycle to keep in mind.

Go for the history of the society first and let it dictate what it is at the current moment and what it will be in the future. You never know what you'll come across when you take a snippet of history.


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## Shadoe (Dec 4, 2011)

To me, cities are nothing more than a piece of the pie in any given society. I create societies the same way I do cities. Look around at quirks in societies both current and historical, then figure out why they are the way they are/were. Then you can get a sense of the things that build an interesting society.

For instance, on my world, I have a country, mostly isolated from others by mountains, that is full of misogynistic, isolationist, brutal migrating tribes. They were interesting, but they lacked depth. So I started investigating similar societies we have had here on earth and looked at their motivations. I figured out the reasoning behind those societies, and I was then able to refine the one I created because they then had reasons to be the way they were. This changed the society somewhat, but I think it's better for it.


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## Masronyx (Dec 4, 2011)

I've been basing any society in my stories on the rural landscape I grew up in.  Any urban society I create has to have research done to it because I am still unfamiliar with large cities.  

I've noticed the rural pattern in a lot of my work over the past few years.  My current story revolves around a rural setting with the people in the lines of 18th century middle to lower class society:  hard working people of the earth with basic beliefs and faiths in a certain deity/god.  Any clashes they have with the aborigines (native peoples) is based on what I've learned so far in doing a Native American persona in Revolutionary War/War of 1812 reenacting.  I have another story that has a society built on the Regency period in the early 19th century.  

I truly believe that a solid building of the society in the story gives the main character another dimension.  You can see how this main person reacts with other people based on social status.  Is this person a rebel against the society or an advocate?  It can also determine how he/she reacts to another form of society or a different culture in another place.


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## Ghost (Dec 4, 2011)

I don't know if this is useful to most people, but I like to look at what groups came into contact with each other. Group A lived here for centuries. When Group B migrated here, everyone got along well enough until Group C came a short time later, absorbing Group B and displacing Group A. Now Group BC is the majority and they dislike Group A, who they feel are a drain on society. The dislike is mutual because Group A feel their land was stolen by all of BC. I build a history for people in the area. Tension and resentment result naturally, even if both groups forget what happened hundreds or thousands of years ago.

It's important for me to know the gender roles in my societies. It's disappointing to read a book with modern western morals and tolerant societies where there is class mobility and women are vocal and have careers, yet some noblewoman is ever being thrown into an arranged marriage against her will. I'm sure it _can_ make sense, but the author never explains how it works like that. Decide what gender roles traditionally are and which, if any, might be in transition. And even if women have a smaller role in society at large, it doesn't mean they don't affect life at home and influence the society from behind the scenes. Women in a patriarchal society aren't automatically simpering and simple. The same goes for social classes. What are the traditional roles and are any of the expectations changing? How is the status quo maintained if a small group is dominating a larger group? A peasant may be uneducated and unworldly, but that doesn't mean he has to be a complete moron.

Look at how the society treats children, the elderly, the poor, the wealthy, the handicapped, the sick, etc. Who is looked down on? (Make the answer more substantial than "intolerant people" or "characters who disagree with the MC.") Who is praised? Should everyone fend for themselves or should everyone band together? What religion(s) are followed and how ingrained is it in the culture? What are the standards for respect and politeness?  How is the society governed, what is considered a crime, and which social groups bear the brunt of the scrutiny? What's done to punish people? To reward them?

What do different segments of the society value and what do they disdain? I'm talking about morals, personality types, arts, standards of human beauty, popular entertainment, etc. Is education important and how widespread is it? What careers are respectable and which are not? Who is in charge of different things (like law enforcement, finances, high society, religion, etc) and how do they handle it?

How is the Other treated? By that I mean groups that aren't "normal" for that society. It could mean foreigners, other species, other ethnicities, the mentally ill, magicians, followers of less popular religions or political parties on the fringe, and so on. Maybe people tolerate them in public but complain about them in the privacy of home. Maybe they're aggressive toward those groups. It's probably more complicated than that.

What subcultures and other groups exist? In one country, you'll have more than one society. Whether it's classes, religions, gender divisions, political alignments, magical ability, whatever, there's going to be more than one group. There's going to be friction, partnerships, parasites. It's an ecosystem, and they affect each other. It extends beyond the boundaries of a city, province, or country. One country has a peasant revolution. I bet the nobles in neighboring countries are going to worry.

There are way more aspects than these, and the relevance of them varies with the story. I'm sorry this post is all jumbled. I'm also sorry if all the questions make me sound like an interrogator.


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## Elder the Dwarf (Dec 4, 2011)

Ouroboros said:


> I don't know if this is useful to most people, but I like to look at what groups came into contact with each other. Group A lived here for centuries. When Group B migrated here, everyone got along well enough until Group C came a short time later, absorbing Group B and displacing Group A. Now Group BC is the majority and they dislike Group A, who they feel are a drain on society. The dislike is mutual because Group A feel their land was stolen by all of BC. I build a history for people in the area. Tension and resentment result naturally, even if both groups forget what happened hundreds or thousands of years ago.



Hmm... what place does that sound like?


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## Shadoe (Dec 4, 2011)

Elder the Dwarf said:


> Hmm... what place does that sound like?


Off the top of my head I can think of three examples.


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## Ghost (Dec 4, 2011)

Uh, the real world? Lol, that's what I was aiming for, anyway.


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## Elder the Dwarf (Dec 4, 2011)

Yeah, I understand.  Where I live, though, the first thing that would pop into your head is America.  That's just because we're pretty close-minded and only think about ourselves, though.  (Ok, guys, that's a joke before anybody thinks I'm bashing anybody.  Gotta be careful with jokes in print.)


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## Telcontar (Dec 5, 2011)

My societies are usually created on tangent from some element I require in a story. Maybe a character, maybe a town, maybe a ruin, whatever. If it's a character, their traits and life will reflect upon the society somehow. If it's a town, or even a ruin, then architecture may inform a lot about the society it comes/came from. 

Once I have the barest essentials for the story, I'll inevitably still be fleshing out the details. The most important thing to have is history. Obviously once you have a collection of events from history - provided they have any pattern to them - then you'll know a lot about how the culture works.


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## Ghost (Dec 5, 2011)

Elder the Dwarf: I know a lot of Americans, or anyone in a country that was colonized, might think that as well. The whole migration/displacement thing happens across the world and throughout history. The groups in my example were inspired by the Sami and the Ainu. Similar dynamics exist throughout the inhabited world, and it's not restricted to Europeans vs. indigenous people. It's a human thing, and I assume it's mostly about the resources.

One group migrates to a new area and assimilates with the natives, wipes them out, or tolerates them although relations are strained from time to time. Perhaps the native group decides to move out, and they move to a new place where they're doing the displacing. (The cycle continues!) There are variations on it, but it's not terribly uncommon.

Back on topic: I didn't address nonhuman societies since they're not my forte. As a reader, I expect them to be very different from humans rather than humans + pointy ears. I'd like to see more nonhuman societies that aren't the epitome of the author's of good/evil (elves/orcs), aren't jealous of humans, and aren't just a gimmick. It might help to look at animal societies and take some influences from that to add to the feeling of "not human."

One thing I hate is when stereotypes about a real world culture are taken wholesale and slapped onto a nonhuman society or a foreign group. I'm not talking about writers who make every culture an analog to real cultures. I'm talking about authors who take the time and care to create one group while the rest are thinly disguised Earth cultures. The dwarves are a Scottish caricature. The orcs are based on a tribal African stereotype. The MC's culture is the author's own creation, but the enemy country is based completely on feudal Japan or the Mongolian horde. What gives?

I hope I don't overcontribute to this thread. Building societies and nations is probably my favorite part of world-building.


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## Telcontar (Dec 5, 2011)

Ouroboros said:


> I'm talking about authors who take the time and care to create one group while the rest are thinly disguised Earth cultures.



This would annoy me more if I saw it more often in actual novels, but I can't think of many where I have. Instead I've seen it most in game settings (WarCraft comes to mind, and D&D). There, however, I can excuse it. All they're trying to do in the beginning is create a framework world for a game to take place in. While I may give more credit to a world that can be truly original, the first job of a game is to entertain me with the gameplay itself.


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## Laughing_Seraphim (Dec 5, 2011)

I start with materials available, religious practices, economic system, gender/race/class issues, technologies available, inclement weather/seasonal patterns.

For instance. The entire society lives in houses made of something like flat bamboo.
They worship a sun god, the priests are a dime a dozen, more like roaming councelors. Only literate portion of society though.
Most people are poor, but shepards are rich. They use wax coins, or little jars of fat as currency.
Non-Poor Men and most women regardless of economic status are equal.
Not technologically advanced at all. Farmers at best. 
Rains 5 days a week, the sun is brutal and deadly the other two.

Just as an example.from there things emerge.


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## Amanita (Dec 5, 2011)

Many good points have already been made, and I'm not going to bore you with repeating them. But there are a few things I'd like to add.
An interesting fictional society like an interesting character is three-dimensional. 
One of the cliches I hate most is the "country of evil" where people own slaves, keep their women in chains, sacrifice virgins to the God of Evil and do everything else that doesn't comply with the author's moral beliefs. If you've read the Darkover-books by Marion Zimmer-Bradley, the Dry Towners there are an example of this. 
This doesn't add anything to the story besides one-dimensional enemies no one will feel sorry for, if they have to be killed. (Which is a nice way of getting around the moral issues surrounding killing.) Made even worse, if the inhabitants of the evil country share some obvious traits with real-world people the author's country is in trouble with at the moment. In-world the characters can believe that the members of another group are all evil as much as they want, but the author shouldn't prove them right. 
Another thing that's bothering me: Societies that do one thing close to the author's heart "right" and are described as superior in any other way because of this as well. 

Fictional societies give a much better background to good stories if the author can respect them and understands why their members act the way they do. They should also shape the characters. They way they've been brought up, should influence how they act later, even if they don't approve of everything believed in their society anymore. And the characters should behave in a way that makes sense in the context of their society. I very rarely touch stories that involve the heroine who wants to go out fighting in a patriarchal society while the people around her don't want her to. This can make sense under special circumstances such as with Jean d'Arc or the Indian noble woman who fought after losing her husband, I've read about years ago. Sadly, I've forgotten most of the story but maybe, _The Blue Lotus_ knows more. 
Usually, this kind of thing doesn't go well though and I don't get why it's so popular. Why can't authors who want fighting female characters just create societies with gender roles different from medieval Europe? There are nowhere nearly enough stories out there that dare to do experiments in this era. 
There are also many different forms of patriarchal society with different possibilities for women, sometimes depending on their social position as well. 
Sorry for drifting off-topic for a bit, maybe I should open an extra thread for this.


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## Ghost (Dec 5, 2011)

I'd like to see what people think about it, Amanita. You should make a thread about it.

I like to use the Wikipedia table of contents for countries when I'm culture-building. It gives me a list of topics (etymology, history, government, economy, etc) as starting points for building the nations. Here are some links that might interest people.

Countries and Their Cultures
Growing Up Sexually - the entries are bare, but you can get some good leads on where to research more
Cultural Dimensions - I love this one!
Dr. Zahir’s Ethnographical Questionnaire

If anyone knows of a good website or book about cultural ecology, I'd love to hear about it!


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## Jess A (Dec 7, 2011)

I came up with my society whilst I was holidaying overseas in a rather interesting place with a unique climate, interesting geography and wildlife. That was my trigger, I suppose, for that particular novel. I would then work out culture and society, trade, defense, etc ... based on that area. I have an interest in climate, geography and biology and the challenges people have living in those areas. It is amazing how ideas grow and breed when you are physically (or mentally!) in such a magical place - and how entire cultures and societies come alive.

Ouroboros: The ethnographical questionnaire is fantastic.


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## SeverinR (Dec 7, 2011)

Elder the Dwarf said:


> Yeah, I understand.  Where I live, though, the first thing that would pop into your head is America.  That's just because we're pretty close-minded and only think about ourselves, though.  (Ok, guys, that's a joke before anybody thinks I'm bashing anybody.  Gotta be careful with jokes in print.)



Dwarfs, what do you expect? Elves rule!  JK   lol  



Little Storm Cloud said:


> I came up with my society whilst I was holidaying overseas in a rather interesting place with a unique climate, interesting geography and wildlife. That was my trigger, I suppose, for that particular novel. I would then work out culture and society, trade, defense, etc ... based on that area. I have an interest in climate, geography and biology and the challenges people have living in those areas. It is amazing how ideas grow and breed when you are physically (or mentally!) in such a magical place - and how entire cultures and societies come alive.
> 
> Ouroboros: The ethnographical questionnaire is fantastic.


It is easier to make interesting culture in a era of the past, when you can see things from that era. Sadly the Americas were wild and uncharted during this period.

I like the culture questionaire. Will have to spend a few days working on it.


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## Steerpike (Dec 7, 2011)

SeverinR said:


> Sadly the Americas were wild and uncharted during this period.



At least, from a European standpoint.


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## Reaver (Dec 7, 2011)

Steerpike said:


> At least, from a European standpoint.



Amen to that, my friend.


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## SeverinR (Dec 12, 2011)

Steerpike said:


> At least, from a European standpoint.



Interesting thought,
Was there any group in North America that had charted more then their own territory? Each tribes knew their land.

Well except for the Aztecs, they had a good civilization and probably knew alot of central America. But most of our heritage at that time were isolated groups.


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## zizban (Dec 13, 2011)

For the world in my upcomming novel, I started with the premise that a stone fell out of the skies, endowing the nomadic humans in the region with a readily available magic and also changing them so they lived a lot longer (3x times) longer than ordinary humans. Fast forward ten of their generations and see what happens.

What I got was the Enlightenment without gunpowder. The magic from the stone made diseases rare and usually curable and medical treatments easy. No need for gun powder since nearly everyone had magic anyway. At first everything was a little too easy for my world so I limited the influence of the stone to a certain radius and not everyone had magic. Also, only those descended from the original humans when the stone came got all the benefis of it. Humans who came after were just "normal".

The net result was a relatively stable empire surrounded by unstable "barbarian" human nations. Into this, my main character arrives, a normal human in a big empire of longer lived humans.


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## DameiThiessen (Dec 14, 2011)

I juxtapose very different cultures. Just like with colours, if you put two opposite societies together they bring out each other's features. In my own story I made an anarchist society and a bureaucratic society join forces to defeat a common threat.


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## Jabrosky (Dec 14, 2011)

For most of my worldbuilding career, each of my fantasy cultures would heavily draw from one real Earth culture, but lately I've been experimenting with the "combine different cultures into one" approach. Even then, I usually want the cultures I combine to be at least distantly related anyway. For example, I would more willingly combine ancient Egyptian and Yoruba culture than I would ancient Egyptian and Japanese culture.


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## Hibana (Dec 16, 2011)

I normally base my societies heavily on real-world cultures (especially odd ones that few people do), often with some cross-over from other societies and my imagination (especially when there's limited information), plus logic (as in: if I have this, what, logically, would go along with or result from it?). I also like basing societies, especially non-human societies, on animal social groups (I have a fairly large culture based on bees...). The ones I play the most with are Mesoamerican, North American (aalbeit limted - not much information about the older ones), ancient Arabic, and ancient Asian (mostly Japan and the more remote areas of China). 

I really like playing around with morals - one of my main characters is from a society that practices sacrifice (usually animal, but also human and other sentient species), and she sees nothing all that wrong with it (mostly because the gods/ major spirits tend to get mad if they don't sacrifice). Just about every culture practices animal sacrifice, or has a subset that does. (Historically, just about everywhere practiced some kind of sacrifice. Animal sacrifice is still practiced today, actually). 

Most of my major cultures are currently mid-industrial revolution, or even on the verge of Rennaissance, although with aid of magic. There's also extensive trade despite no railroads or non-wooden boats, and there has been for centuries, because of 'leys', which are giant streams of magic that can be ridden/ sailed (basically scifi's concept of hyperspace, but on a much smaller scale) and can also move around... They also have areas where they tend to always pass through, and areas that it's easier/harder to get on or off, making for cities built in otherwise illogical places with highly migrant populations falsely inflated by high levels of trade flowing through them. There's a lot of exploitation of undeveloped countries by developed countries, too, and the major measurement of success is the number of colonies an empire has.


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## Jabrosky (Dec 18, 2011)

The world I'm building for my current story (for which I've just written a new synopsis) is very Counterpart Culture-ish. Specifically, it has these cultures:

*1. *A Northern European "barbarian" tribe with Viking-style longships. The protagonist's male love interest is a warrior from this culture.

*2.* A Black African civilization inspired by ancient Egypt and Nubia. The story's female protagonist is the Pharaoh of this culture.

*3.* A desert-dwelling Middle Eastern tribe. The main antagonist is a sheikh/priest from this culture.
*
4.* A heavily maritime and commercial civilization with an ancient Greek/Roman/maybe Spanish flavor. They function as minor antagonists early in the story.

*5.* A highly advanced Chinese civilization in a state of civil war that is the only culture in the world to have gunpowder. Another race of minor antagonists.


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## OrionDarkwood (Dec 29, 2011)

Devor said:


> So reading and thinking about the conversation in another thread about Creating Interesting Cities, it occurred to me that no city is entirely a bubble unto itself.  It's a large and important cog in the broader society.
> 
> So how do you go about creating interesting nations and societies?



I usually look at ancient and modern societies and see makes them unique and what makes them common. I also ask myself can this concept logically exist. If their is a isolationist society then it has to have the raw materials in order to function and satisfy the needs of the public. One such nation I created was the nation of Tayor the nation had vast tracts of farmland well suited for growing cotton and natural dyes. Because of this was more or less the nations only valuable resource local and national rulers where chosen by the ability to create cloth-work from the cotton.


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## mythique890 (Dec 29, 2011)

I'm not a big world-builder, but I think the most interesting virtual societies start with a "what if" scenario and then present realistic ways it could have come about and how their past and present would make them different from what we're used to.  Matriarchal societies, for example.  They're so rare in the real world (though they do exist) that the idea absolutely fascinates me.


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## Graham Irwin (Jan 7, 2012)

How old is your world?

How many chances for rebellion/world war/exploration have your people had?

Is there a one-world government, or nations, or city states?

Basically, what was the original motivation behind the settling of the city?
Also, has that motivation been usurped, or has there been a religious awakening or political idea that has changed the ideology of the town?

Think first of sociology, then go from there when constructing a city.

Next would be geography (for layout), trade, military importance, etc. 

Read some history. Humans have created enough gradients of society to inspire a million fantasies.


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## Xanados (Jan 8, 2012)

Leif GS Notae said:


> Depends on the terrain and the borders provided. I have to look at a map to really get a good feel, though it can always change.
> 
> The main thing to think of is how big it is, has it been bigger before or is it on the verge of being absorbed or dissolved. As with all societies and cities; there is a growth, stagnation, reduction, rebirth cycle to keep in mind.
> 
> Go for the history of the society first and let it dictate what it is at the current moment and what it will be in the future. You never know what you'll come across when you take a snippet of history.


"Go for the history of the society first..."
Well said, Leif. I'm currently at the planning stage of my narrative and I'm writing pages of information on the history and culture of the society into which my protagonist was born. My story is essentially a war-effort, and it feels necessary to go into detail on such things because of that.


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