# Elves : Good Cliche or Bad



## Androxine Vortex (Jun 22, 2015)

I am making lots of different races and noticed I haven't made anything like the popular elves. I try to make my characters and creations original and enjoy giving everything their own unique name. Makes me feel like more of my creation than designing something else someone already made if that makes sense. The closest thing I have to an elven race is one I came up with a few days ago; I haven't decided on a name but they have very slanted eyes and ears with snake-like slits for nostrils yet they are described as being very elegant and beautiful.

Do you use elves in your stories? Do you think they are overused? Should we as authors try to come up with more original ideas or try and take creative spins on things already developed?


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## Ireth (Jun 22, 2015)

I love using elves and elf-like beings in my stories, especially the Celtic Fae and the Norse Alfar. I'm kind of on the fence about originality versus new spins on old ideas, because I've done a bit of both. As well as just going right back into the old ideas themselves, like the mythologies I mentioned above.


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## Svrtnsse (Jun 22, 2015)

When I created my settings I started with humans, elves, dwarves, and hobbits - copied straight from the stereotypical ideas of what these races are. Then I tweaked them until they became something other than what people generally think of when they hear those words, well, except the humans, they're still the same (and I changed the names of hobbits to anfylk).
The same with the dragons.

I used to say that originality is overrated, and that it's what you do with what you have that matters. I'm still not convinced that originality is the kind of holy grail that some people seem to make it out to be, but I recognise that there's value in it.
To me, the importance is in the details. I like the little unexpected twists and turns that don't appear until you looks closer at something - things that could otherwise be easily missed.


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## Tom (Jun 22, 2015)

I use elves mostly for fun, because there are so many elven cliches you can exploit for a parody story. Still, I'd like to use them more often in my more serious work. The Fey in Southerner somewhat resemble elves, I suppose. 

I've always been fascinated by elves--mostly because they're almost human, yet distinctly alien. It's interesting to think about how their minds work. Since they resemble us physically, does that mean they also resemble us mentally? Or is their psychology totally different?


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## Androxine Vortex (Jun 22, 2015)

And on a side note this was supposed to be in writing questions, not sure why i posted in world building. Sorry about that.


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## evolution_rex (Jun 22, 2015)

I personally don't like Elves in the way that they're normally used in fantasy. They're almost always Tolkien-esque, and to me if you want to put them in there, you've got to add a lot of original touches. Personally, if I add elves, I make them short scruffy Gnome/Leprechaun kind of creatures. I think it's used less often in serious fantasy and I don't think it's a terrible idea.

But if you need the 'ancient advanced peaceful race' that the Elves so often are, try finding an obscure mythological humanoid or invent your own. I usually do Sylphs or Angels (typically my own adaptation of what an Angel is, not the Abrahamic definition). Maybe adapt the least suspecting mythological humanoid and make them into something Elven-esque. Imagine an ancient race of super intelligent Ogres who once ruled the world!


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 22, 2015)

To answer your question with a somewhat useless answer (at least on the surface): it depends. Seriously, it depends on how you use them. If you pretty much do what Tolkien did then it's cliched and a strike against your story. But if you change the elves and make them truly your own then it won't be bad but a cool reinterpretation of the mythos. Problem is it's easy to pull a Tolkien but difficult to do something original with it. But, it is possible. Dragon Age has a good different type of elf (like gypsies). Ergaon has a bad method of depicting elves (basically Tolkien but with dragon friends).


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## Saigonnus (Jun 22, 2015)

Can't say I've used them at all in my works in progress, but that doesn't mean I won't in the future. I think at the moment, my focus has been on refining some of the other races that inhabit my world. 

The Gur for example are generally dwarvish in stature, but that's about the only similarity they share. 

I think if I do have an elf-like race, I would like to think that they won't have too many similarities with the traditional manifestations presently in the realm of fantasy. 


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## Feo Takahari (Jun 22, 2015)

I used an exaggerated parody of them once, which controlled time, communicated through singing, could singlehandedly fight and kill an entire squad of soldiers, etc. Then I made it clear that their society was fundamentally corrupt and their future was in jeopardy. I never, ever write a straight-up "superior species."


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## Tom (Jun 22, 2015)

Feo Takahari said:


> I used an exaggerated parody of them once, which controlled time, communicated through singing, could singlehandedly fight and kill an entire squad of soldiers, etc.



They sound like Paolini's elves. And they're not supposed to be parody...


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## Feo Takahari (Jun 22, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> They sound like Paolini's elves. And they're not supposed to be parody...



They were actually inspired by the Qirsi from Winds of the Forelands.


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## cupiscent (Jun 22, 2015)

Personally, as a reader, I'm not so interested in stories with elves. They're generally indicative of a sort of fantasy I'm not so interested in - the sort that's more about the epic-questy, good-and-evil, Tolkienesque, Germanic-Euro-tradition things. But hey, that's just me: plenty of other readers like that sort of stuff. Personally, I'm more interested in dirtier, more complex fantasy that digs into humanity and all our flaws. There's so much to be explored within humanity, I'm not really sure I see the appeal of stepping outside it. (I also don't much like sci-fi with alien races.  )


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## MineOwnKing (Jun 22, 2015)

Naked Battle Elves is a light but fantastic read.

If one is mature enough to put the slight silliness of the eye candy and erotic flare aside, the actual writing is really very good.

Ryan Erin may have a niche market, but he commands it well.


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## Gurkhal (Jun 22, 2015)

I try to avoid other races due to the fact that humans can be so diverse in themselves, at least for mundane things. If I want a multitude of view points, perspectives or cultures, humans suffice as well.


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## Miskatonic (Jun 23, 2015)

Can they be short and make cookies?

I have no intention of putting elves in my stories, unless it's something coming out of left field.


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## WooHooMan (Jun 23, 2015)

_Do you use elves in your stories?_
Yes

_Do you think they are overused?_
Yes but who cares?

_Should we as authors try to come up with more original ideas or try and take creative spins on things already developed?_
Both
Totally new ideas are good too

On the off chance that you're curious as to how I'm doing elves: the elves I got a ghostly beings - white skin, white hair, white eyes, intangible to a degree, can float - who migrated to the land from the sky.
Sociologically-speaking, they have nothing in common with humans.  They're so alien that they might as well be animals.  They are, so far, unable to communicate with humans (not that they would want to) and humans cannot understand how they work as a society.
Also, they don't have pointy ears.

In short, I interpreted the original Norse myth elves and rolled with it.

Thematically, they're meant to demonstrate how humans have more in common with "bad" people - for example, let's say orcs - than they'd like to admit and that the two peoples could get along relatively well if they tried.  That's the narrative purpose of elves in this setting.


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## Miskatonic (Jun 23, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> _Do you use elves in your stories?_
> Yes
> 
> _Do you think they are overused?_
> ...



The Norse mythology version of elves and dwarves has always been interesting. Definitely gives a different perspective compared to the Tolkien interpretation.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 23, 2015)

I think whether you try to invent something original or you riff off of more traditional tropes depends entirely on who you are as an author, what your goals as an author are, what audience you are trying to reach and what kind of story you are trying to tell. 

There's plenty of room for every variation on Elves you can think of. There's plenty of readers looking for all kinds of variety from those that just really enjoy reading about straight up Tolkien Elves to those who would prefer something brand new and unexpected and everything in between. It's not an either or issue. Nothing in fiction is.


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## skip.knox (Jun 23, 2015)

The only good cliche is a dead cliche.

I use elves, though the first one to make an appearance is a dead one. I don't worry about whether they are cliche or not. I worry about whether they make the story work.

FWIW, Tolkien's elves, when he was writing them, broke an older trope.


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## Shreddies (Jun 23, 2015)

I like elves, if I'm honest. And dwarves, etc. I just don't like carbon copies of Tolkien elves. And the whole 'fading away' thing also bugs me to no end. I guess because I'm not a fan of stories where the magic 'goes away'. I want the wonder to grow, dangit!

My elves were inspired by a rewatching of the Hobbit movie, and Legolas in particular. I thought 'Ninja Elves!' and just ran with the idea until I came to a humorous parody of old translated kung-fu movies.

It was either that or make them eldritch world travelers that sailed the sea between worlds. Kinda like cthulhu mythos, only prettier. And most of them aren't even interested in humans. But there's always the occasional one (considered a pervert and shunned by the others) that do take interest and eventually interbreed with humans, producing what is considered in-universe as an elf (pointy ears and all).

Actually, now that I think of it, I might just use both types.


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## WooHooMan (Jun 23, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> The Norse mythology version of elves and dwarves has always been interesting. Definitely gives a different perspective compared to the Tolkien interpretation.



And then there's differences between the Tolkien elves and the D&D elves.  Or pop culture elves like Christmas elves or Keebler elves.
It's like history has proven that elves are pretty flexible.



Shreddies said:


> I like elves, if I'm honest. And dwarves, etc. I just don't like carbon copies of Tolkien elves. And the whole 'fading away' thing also bugs me to no end. I guess because I'm not a fan of stories where the magic 'goes away'. I want the wonder to grow, dangit!
> 
> blah blah blah
> 
> It was either that or make them eldritch world travelers that sailed the sea between worlds. Kinda like cthulhu mythos, only prettier. And most of them aren't even interested in humans. But there's always the occasional one (considered a pervert and shunned by the others) that do take interest and eventually interbreed with humans, producing what is considered in-universe as an elf (pointy ears and all).



There isn't really anything about this post that I don't like.  I also really don't like the "magic fading" cliche.

My elves are really similar to what you described with the Cthulhu elves.  I'd recommend going with them.  It's a neat take that works weirdly well.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jun 23, 2015)

The idea for an Elvish race in my story would make them very similar to the elves used by tolkien except that they Aren't inherently good. They're just another race that is very magically inclined, like the high elves in the elder scrolls series.


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## ThinkerX (Jun 23, 2015)

Yes, I have elves...mostly way off in the background...because I do have a few half elf characters closer to the meat of my stories.

My elves are lost, alien souls, trapped in once human bodies, bound to the physical realms.  Returning to their true home deep in the astral or etheric realms is a one step at a time journey.  Most times, they die, they get reincarnated again as an elf.  

Their alien souls give them an otherworldly air and a knack for magic.  Their altered bodies have lifespans of a couple centuries or so.  They retain kinship with entities in the deep astral or etheric realms (fey), and can occasionally persuade these entities to assist in endeavors in the material realms.  

The True Church (humans) views elves as suspect at best (more often abominations) and considers fey to be nothing more than a species of demon, though not quite as malevolent as other demon types.  Their view is more split on half elves, which is where the story telling comes in.

The elves most people in the human realms hear about are the 'Faerie Queens,' matriarchal despots of petty fiefdoms between the human and elven realms.  Common human conception has the Faerie Queens as inveterate schemers and seducers of handsome human knights.  (not without reason, most part elves have a Faerie Queen ancestor)


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## skip.knox (Jun 23, 2015)

I already posted, but I have to add this. I don't hate elves. I only hate *badly-written* elves. 

Same goes for humans.

To be a little more precise, I probably hate any character type that is recently popular (yes, vampires) mainly because they tend to attract hordes of really bad writers. Resulting in badly-written vampires. I don't actually hate vampires (much love to Marv Wolfman / Gene Colan's Dracula), but there's so much accumulated dreck over their collective coffins, I won't even pick up a book about them. This is, no doubt, a grave (hah!) injustice to a handful of writers, but there it is.

Blame the writer, don't blame the character!


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## stephenspower (Jun 23, 2015)

Elvis is a total cliche at this point.


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## Miskatonic (Jun 24, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> And then there's differences between the Tolkien elves and the D&D elves.  Or pop culture elves like Christmas elves or Keebler elves.
> It's like history has proven that elves are pretty flexible.
> 
> 
> ...



I've pretty much ignored anything D&D for as long as I can remember. Other than some character designs I never cared much for the lore.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 25, 2015)

stephenspower said:


> Elvis is a total cliche at this point.



Don't be cruel Stephenspower, or you might find yourself in the heartbreak hotel.


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## Tom (Jun 25, 2015)

ThinkerX said:


> Yes, I have elves...mostly way off in the background...because I do have a few half elf characters closer to the meat of my stories.
> 
> My elves are lost, alien souls, trapped in once human bodies, bound to the physical realms.  Returning to their true home deep in the astral or etheric realms is a one step at a time journey.  Most times, they die, they get reincarnated again as an elf.
> 
> ...



I really love your idea for elves! It's a great, original idea that I've never seen before. How did you come up with it?


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## ThinkerX (Jun 25, 2015)

> I really love your idea for elves! It's a great, original idea that I've never seen before. How did you come up with it?



A bit of study, and a lot of thought and logic.  

My view is that nonhuman races should be, well, nonhuman.  Yet most elves in mythology and fantasy stories alike were very close to humans in both physical appearance and mental outlook.  

Plus, the elven traits - long lifespan, hint of otherworldliness, and whatnot seemed...artificial.  

Then there was the whole 'fey' or 'elemental spirit' thing.  These beings possessed great magic, yet it seemed like they were merely visiting from elsewhere, some other fantastical realm.  Elves are sometimes lumped in with fey, and they seem to bear a sort of affinity for each other.  

So I played around with these building blocks.  Elves became fey trapped in physical form (initially human) through some act of their own combined with meddling by outside forces (ancient aliens plus Lovecraftian entities).  They have to earn or work their way back to the fey realm one life at a time even as the physical realm affects them to the point where they are no longer really fey.

Some other elements I tossed in:

Septs:  Elves are highly social, viewing isolation (privacy) as a harsh punishment or act of insanity.  They form themselves into fluid groups based on kin or occupation or mutual interests, and the members of these groups share a sort of empathic bond with each other.  On occasion, desperate elves have formed septs with half elves and even humans (though this often results in the human going insane).  Loosing a sept member is traumatic, hence elf warriors require special toughening.

Memory Globes:  Direct experience counts more than the written word.  Hence, most elves bother little with writing (often being illiterate), instead placing memories of relevant experiences into egg sized crystalline spheres.  Elves access these stored memories without difficulty, but half elves and especially humans have a fair chance of becoming 'lost.'

Plus...well, elves don't use money among themselves, instead exchanging goods and services in a vast web akin to 'performance art' - which applies to the political sphere as well.


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## Tom (Jun 25, 2015)

Wow! It's obvious you've thought a lot about the elves and how you want to portray them. I'd love to see these elves in a story.


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## ThinkerX (Jun 26, 2015)

> Wow! It's obvious you've thought a lot about the elves and how you want to portray them. I'd love to see these elves in a story



If you are going to include an 'alien' ('nonhuman') race, then make them alien.  Make them different.

That said, my elves are mostly way off in the background.   An exception of sorts are the 'Faerie Queens' who rule despotic fiefdoms in the 'March' or 'Faerie March,' a sort of buffer zone between human and elfin realms.  I do have a few half elf characters, though.  Should I ever get around to it, I have half a notion for a story set in a mixed human / elf city (Vallam), which would feature elf characters.  Vallam does major trade with the human realms (human merchants are eager for elf goods, legal, illegal, or just plain strange)

Couple of the other elf cities I have notes on are 'Fallarine' - a group of thirteen tall towers of weird aspect.  City is half empty, the result of internal strife. Outsiders sometimes find themselves enslaved, with bizarre terms of service.  Another is 'Faerie Ring,' a hollow ring of a city centered on an arch where the physical and fey realms touch, allowing free transit.  The closer you venture to the arch, the weirder and more dangerous things get.  A destination for human wizards.    

Hmmm...maybe I should look into doing more with the elf realm.


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## Ankari (Jun 26, 2015)

I use elves in my story. I change their names to _Ashar_, made them dual-natured (split?), and removed the whole "we are fleeing the land to a secluded somewhere else." I also make their population just as healthy has other races. I've kept their higher level of knowledge, their longer life span, and added the ability to "see magic."

There are other twists. One of which is they are enslaved in other parts of the world, not possessing higher levels of knowledge, and are on the decline (through interracial breeding). The other twist I'd like to reveal as my writing unfolds.

That said, elves are great. You can change so many things about the elves, even their names, but if a race possesses two or three of the key traits of elves, most readers will think of them as elves.


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## Agamemnon (Jun 27, 2015)

evolution_rex makes a good point that most elves in modern literature are rips from the Tolkien works. Try looking up elves as they were written according to human mythology and you might find them surprisingly different. I've personally used them, once or twice.


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## Saigonnus (Jun 27, 2015)

I dreamed of a relentless, undying creature that are short, somewhat stocky and beautiful., without any trace of facial or body hair. They are vicious to those they consider enemies. They regenerate even from the point of death and are considerably stronger than humans are. They do have a weakness, something that can be used to kill their regenerative capabilities... A special compound. 

I think these will be my elves! *Evil Grin*


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## Bropocalypse (Jul 18, 2015)

There is something to be said about the sort of mystical high nobility with which tolkienesque elves are commonly shown.

However, I don't think I could personally write elves that way. If I were to write an elfy tale it would feature creatures with the stance and limberness of large gibbons, say. And their faces would probably be distinctly removed from those of a human. In this case, the end result would be another sapient primate, parallel to humans but smaller and lighter. They'd probably have large, dark eyes as well, to really accentuate the difference.


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## SeverinR (Jul 21, 2015)

Make a race of beings, mold them and shape them to make them yours, not anyone else's creation.  

I have mentioned this before, no created race is more written about then humans, are humans clichÃ©? are they over used?
I say that any number of stories can be written about humans, can be written about elves, or any race.
A race only becomes boring/clichÃ© when the writer doesn't make them interesting.

In all you do, in all you create, make it yours, but above else make them interesting. They don't have to be the sharpest tools in the shed, but be sure they aren't the dullest.


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## ChasingSuns (Jul 22, 2015)

I personally use something similar to elves, or rather, inspired by elves. There's a race of humanoids in my world that have slightly extended lifespans, and a knack for magic. They also have some similar architecture to the elven architecture seen in LOTR, although with some differences. They are a vast empire with a really corrupt government. I thought that it would be fun to explore the darker side of the elven personality. I am trying to have it be reminiscent enough of elves without it being too cliche. Hopefully I pull it off


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## Lennan (Jul 22, 2015)

I do not believe that using elves is a cliche. I have read several stories where the author has created so many races with different names, I find it confusing. I use fairies in my story, with one troll, but I also use creatures from Celt mythology that readers may not be familiar with but their parts are brief and and I provide a good description. But whose says elves cannot look like your version?  I think people have a certain mindset regarding fairies, elves and trolls, so I think its' good to have different descriptions and behaviors. Trolls are usually portrayed as evil beings, and my troll character begins with that stigma but evolves into a good character. Good luck! Lennan


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## ChasingSuns (Jul 23, 2015)

I definitely think that readers might view elves as cliche. But even so, if the story is well-written I don't think that anyone is gonna complain  I personally like to put my own spin on things when using something similar to a known fantasy race or creature, but in the end, it all comes down to the story.


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## Cambra (Aug 17, 2015)

I am trying to write something where elves are the main only race and most of their interactions with other elves, they live slightly longer and they are slightly smaller the humans (humans may put in an appearance somewhat towards the end, but they are going to be the other...) but what characterises them most is magic, and currently one of my made elf nations is attempting to systematise and rationalise the use of magic. It is also contemplating introducing the possibility of a breeding programme given that magic appears to be mostly genetic, not all elves are born with magic ability, only about 10% say, but the strange thing is that in parallel with the development of magic ability they realise that if they are to survive they have to develop other facets of culture such as medicine, law and politics…

These are not Tolkienesque noble elves BTW...

For other groups of elves magic and its practice are anathema, particularly if they were a former colony of the Temple a sort of magic theocratic dictatorship.


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## Miskatonic (Aug 21, 2015)

I have another question. Do they have to have pointy ears?


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## Saigonnus (Aug 21, 2015)

If homo erectus has the same ears as other subspecies of human, there is nothing to say your elves have to have the pointy ears... I think those that came before use it to differentiate them from humans physically. 


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## The Stranger (Aug 21, 2015)

Personally, i like elves. There are a lot of different ways one can interpret them, either being that classic Tolkien style, more original Nordic, or I've even seen people use elves more in the way that they appear in the illustrious Santa Claus fairy tails. its all about how you use them, even if they are the stereotypical nature-loving, bow-wielding, fancy elves, you can still do something original with them. its all about how you use them in a story.


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