# Are the elves really that boring ?



## wintercub (Aug 1, 2012)

A couple of days ago i came up with an idea for a novel: "a dying world weakened by hundreds of years of war and disease, where the ways of magic are lost and the only remaining people are the elven clans who now fight each other to survive and to take what's left of the world." that's basically the core of the story. . .

Now the problem is some of my friends and other people keep saying that elves aren't cool and interesting anymore and that there's just already to many tales and stereotypes surrounding this race.

Well I'm quite aware of the stereotypes and I will at my best try to avoid it. I was thinking of adding certain elements like cannibalism, rape, incest, etc. Things that are definitely not the common " elven ideal of perfect ".

So I really needed some opinions about the race choice and the story in general. . .

thanks


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Aug 1, 2012)

I think it could work well if you're showing them regressing to a barbaric state. That would certainly be a spin I haven't seen before.


----------



## chinookpilot77 (Aug 1, 2012)

I like all the elf stuff...I actually prefer a series that is dominated by humans, but still has a healthy dose of "other" beings running around.  I love dark fantasy, but man, give me a tasslehoff for comic relief any day!


----------



## wintercub (Aug 1, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I think it could work well if you're showing them regressing to a barbaric state. That would certainly be a spin I haven't seen before.



yes that is exactly what i was thinking of, turning the once peaceful and good nations of the elves into cruel and savage societies who only seek power at any cost.


----------



## Philip Overby (Aug 1, 2012)

Elves are cool if the writer makes them cool.  Make them cool and put them in your story if you want them there.


----------



## wintercub (Aug 1, 2012)

chinookpilot77 said:


> I like all the elf stuff...I actually prefer a series that is dominated by humans, but still has a healthy dose of "other" beings running around.  I love dark fantasy, but man, give me a tasslehoff for comic relief any day!



yeah i usually like a big dose of other races in my tales but in this case i think its better if i just stick to the elves.


----------



## wintercub (Aug 1, 2012)

Phil the Drill said:


> Elves are cool if the writer makes them cool.  Make them cool and put them in your story if you want them there.



Thanks i will


----------



## robertbevan (Aug 2, 2012)

elves aren't inherently boring or exciting. the particular set of characters you're writing have to be interesting, or nobody is going to give a damn what shape their ears are.

the setting of your story sounds cool, but what's the actual story? zoom in on this world until you find your protagonist and what it is that he or she wants.


----------



## Varamyrr (Aug 2, 2012)

You have all the power you need. Step away from the default elf we know (beautiful, magical, ...). Instead, turn them into a race that has got the same flaws and sins as any other human race would. Even then, you can still play around with your characters..


----------



## wintercub (Aug 2, 2012)

robertbevan said:


> elves aren't inherently boring or exciting. the particular set of characters you're writing have to be interesting, or nobody is going to give a damn what shape their ears are.
> 
> the setting of your story sounds cool, but what's the actual story? zoom in on this world until you find your protagonist and what it is that he or she wants.



well I'm having some trouble in creating the main chars. 
I was thinking about a cruel and sadistic princess who seeks to rediscover the forgotten ways of magic and gain the upper hand in the war of the clans or maybe a lone assassin who travels across the land for work while trying to find the shattered pieces of his dark and mysterious past... i just have so many ideas but its hard to connect them all into a credible and good storyline. . .


----------



## wintercub (Aug 2, 2012)

Varamyrr said:


> You have all the power you need. Step away from the default elf we know (beautiful, magical, ...). Instead, turn them into a race that has got the same flaws and sins as any other human race would. Even then, you can still play around with your characters..



yes i'm making an effort to erase all the stereotypes of the race and to create credible characters who are mortal, have weaknesses and fears, characters that make mistakes and bad decisions that will eventually get them killed.


----------



## ShortHair (Aug 2, 2012)

wintercub said:


> well I'm having some trouble in creating the main chars. ...
> i just have so many ideas but its hard to connect them all into a credible and good storyline. . .



I would come up with an event or a powerful magic item/spell/ability that threatens the status quo. "We've got to act now or the entire world is doomed!" is always good motivation for characters. That will give you a focal point to include/exclude characters and plot points. Once you've done that, you can always pick another focal point.

Sounds like a good idea, by the way.


----------



## wintercub (Aug 2, 2012)

ShortHair said:


> I would come up with an event or a powerful magic item/spell/ability that threatens the status quo. "We've got to act now or the entire world is doomed!" is always good motivation for characters. That will give you a focal point to include/exclude characters and plot points. Once you've done that, you can always pick another focal point.
> 
> Sounds like a good idea, by the way.




Wow you're absolutely right ! its gets a lot more easier to come up with the plot.

Thank you so much!


----------



## Amanita (Aug 2, 2012)

> yes i'm making an effort to erase all the stereotypes of the race and to create credible characters who are mortal, have weaknesses and fears, characters that make mistakes and bad decisions that will eventually get them killed.


What's the point of using elves rather than humans then? What does make them different from humans? Why do you want to have these differences in your story? Maybe answering this will help you to answer the question in the title as well.


----------



## lovecow (Aug 2, 2012)

I like the idea you got going on .
 Twist them elves into something new.
 As to story Can i suggest some of my ideas.
I'd keep other races in the story . Could make them some sort of night peole, hiding from elfs in the day attacking by night. That way you can brake up some of the elf on elf action with new dangers. And mabye I smell a quest to heal the world coming on . Re-finding magic and inner beauty. As to elves not being cool, they got pointy ears ...how COOL is that


----------



## BWFoster78 (Aug 2, 2012)

I guess I'll take the contrary position.

First though, a caveat: If you are passionate about elves, you should write about elves despite what your friends say or what I say or what anyone says.  

I'd start first by asking, what is your primary goal?  If it's:

1) to write the story you want to read, then why are you asking our opinion.  Write your story.
2) to get rich and famous by writing something that will be made into movies, then good luck.  I have no idea how to achieve this goal.  If you figure it out, please let us know.
3) to find the largest possible audience for your work, then I'm not sure that elves are the right choice.  Since they are such a well know fantasy race, you already have a lot of people who don't want anything to do with them.  I pretty much immediately dismiss reading a book if it has elves.  Admittedly, some people may read it just for their inclusion.  I think, though, that most people who love elves will read a book even if they're not included while people who hate elves aren't going to even consider it.

Just a few thoughts.  Please drink lots of water to help with the hugh amount of salt you need.


----------



## wintercub (Aug 2, 2012)

Amanita said:


> What's the point of using elves rather than humans then? What does make them different from humans? Why do you want to have these differences in your story? Maybe answering this will help you to answer the question in the title as well.



Just let me explain

In this world the humans and possibly other races are extinct due to constant warfare and excessive use of destructive magic. The only ones left where the elves, because of their superior combat skills, weaponry, greater resistance to disease and extended lifetime. But as the years passed, The clans mentality was changed by hundreds of years of constant war and by seeing their homes destroyed. The elves became a cruel and cold hearted people and started to fight each other to reclaim what was left of their homes and their world. 

I just think for once there should be a fantasy story where humans are not the center of everything, where they do not even exist anymore and i think the elves are the perfect race to take the main role.


----------



## wintercub (Aug 2, 2012)

lovecow said:


> I like the idea you got going on .
> Twist them elves into something new.
> As to story Can i suggest some of my ideas.
> I'd keep other races in the story . Could make them some sort of night peole, hiding from elfs in the day attacking by night. That way you can brake up some of the elf on elf action with new dangers. And mabye I smell a quest to heal the world coming on . Re-finding magic and inner beauty. As to elves not being cool, they got pointy ears ...how COOL is that



well i'll be adding some new dangers as the story keeps on going, and it will probably involve another race(s). Also the goal of one of the main chars will be the search for the lost ways of magic.

I see we have very similar ideas and as for the pointy ears, totally agree with you


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Aug 2, 2012)

wintercub said:
			
		

> Just let me explain
> 
> In this world the humans and possibly other races are extinct due to constant warfare and excessive use of destructive magic. The only ones left where the elves, because of their superior combat skills, weaponry, greater resistance to disease and extended lifetime. But as the years passed, The clans mentality was changed by hundreds of years of constant war and by seeing their homes destroyed. The elves became a cruel and cold hearted people and started to fight each other to reclaim what was left of their homes and their world.
> 
> I just think for once there should be a fantasy story where humans are not the center of everything, where they do not even exist anymore and i think the elves are the perfect race to take the main role.



The idea is turning the typical idea of elves on its head. As I said before, I like this angle.

However, you need reasons other than "years of struggle turned them cruel". After all, as a race they won by surviving.

I think you'll be better served if you have factions within the race competing for vanishing resources, the few remaining habitable areas, kidnapping mates because isolation has weakened the gene pool.... Things like that. Give valid arguments for the change of an entire race & their in-fighting.

Also, consider how long ago did these wars take place? How have the different factions changed from one another due to separation? There's a ton of different directions you could go with this (cultural differences, language dialects, physical appearance, etc.). Hell if you wanted to, you could have them initially appear like different races altogether and slowly reveal that they were once all elves of the same ilk. Tons of ways to approach it... Just be creative & have fun doing it.


----------



## wintercub (Aug 2, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> I guess I'll take the contrary position.
> 
> First though, a caveat: If you are passionate about elves, you should write about elves despite what your friends say or what I say or what anyone says.
> 
> ...



well never thought of that before i guess .

I just wanted some opinions about the choice of the elves for primary race and also if the story ideas were good enough to stick with them.

but thanks you make a very good point


----------



## wintercub (Aug 2, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> The idea is turning the typical idea of elves on its head. As I said before, I like this angle.
> 
> However, you need reasons other than "years of struggle turned them cruel". After all, as a race they won by surviving.
> 
> ...



well thank you so much for your great sugestions, i guess i'll start writing right away !


----------



## SeverinR (Aug 2, 2012)

Nature tends to drive all animals to do what must be done to increase species survivability.

Even good natured humanoids would tend to collect women, protect them so they can produce many offspring, a man's value would be reflected by how many: Wives, children he can produce and take care of. It all returns to the basics of survival.
Basically more barbaric, but with reason. Harems would be common, the strongest man would have the women and common man would probably not be allowed to even get close to women.(inferior offspring)
Proving how manly a man was would encourage fights, winner would take some or all of the losers women. Men would be kept to serve the overlord and guard his property.  Women would become babysitters and cooks, the lesser women would be more in the role of servant, but would not be allowed to around men. The prefered women would be baby bearers and wet nurse.
Fighting to steal or defend what each other has, so the world would break down into chaos.


----------



## wintercub (Aug 2, 2012)

SeverinR said:


> Nature tends to drive all animals to do what must be done to increase species survivability.
> 
> Even good natured humanoids would tend to collect women, protect them so they can produce many offspring, a man's value would be reflected by how many: Wives, children he can produce and take care of. It all returns to the basics of survival.
> Basically more barbaric, but with reason. Harems would be common, the strongest man would have the women and common man would probably not be allowed to even get close to women.(inferior offspring)
> ...



that's basically the essence of the elven society i have in mind


----------



## Sheilawisz (Aug 2, 2012)

I have a friend in Madrid who loves elves and has written some elves-based stories, and his elves are powerful, large creatures with a sadistic nature that despise humans and other species... He imagined elves not as perfect and beautiful, but as vicious warriors and very deadly monsters that I would never want to meet somewhere.

You can imagine your own elves to be completely unlike the Tolkien-style elves and others, it's great fun to create something new and original even if you still want to call them elves =)

I am moving this thread to the World Building forum.


----------



## wintercub (Aug 2, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> it's great fun to create something new and original even if you still want to call them elves =) .



Exactly


----------



## BWFoster78 (Aug 2, 2012)

One question I have is:

If elves are completely different than the elves we typically see, why don't you just call them something else?  

That way, you don't have to try to overcome built in conceptions about them.


----------



## wintercub (Aug 2, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> One question I have is:
> 
> If elves are completely different than the elves we typically see, why don't you just call them something else?
> 
> That way, you don't have to try to overcome built in conceptions about them.



true but if i gave them another name they would still have the features of the elves, and in my opinion it would just sound like a cheap copy. 

i think the creation of a new and credible main race is a bit to much for me, i prefer taking the classic model that people are already familiarized with and twist it into something totally new and different.

but anyway thanks for the suggestion


----------



## Steerpike (Aug 2, 2012)

If they have the features of elves, then they aren't "completely" different, though. I think, as BWFoster said, if they are completely different from elves, there isn't much reason to call them elves. I suppose it could be an association made by the characters - say if someone from our world journeyed there, saw this race, and the closest word their mind could come up with was elves, even though it didn't really fit.


----------



## shangrila (Aug 3, 2012)

I don't think you'd _have_ to call them something different. You could keep some of the cliches to give a link or, a better way in my opinion, have the stereotypical elves being what they used to be, i.e. prideful, decadent, arrogant, learned, etc. In that way they're still "elves", just ones that have gone through the end of their world, more or less.


----------



## It's a Squirrel...Moose? (Aug 3, 2012)

I suppose the question is this: why elves? Your idea is a semi-typical despotian world where the surviving races (in this case elves) have reverted to tribalism in order to survive. I feel tha you are using elves simply because you want t buck the usual trend of elves being haunt and perfect.

This by itself is not a bad thing. But, the dying world theme is a well trodden ground - I would be much more interested in a story that is all about how the elves became barbarians, because at the moment it strikes me that if you replaced elves with humans the story would ATM lose nothing.

This is the problem with elves, that nine times out of ten they could be replaced by humanity - in fact they might as well be seen as a form of humanity that we strive to be. Elves have been overdone to death in recent years.... But that s just m personal opinion


----------



## wintercub (Aug 3, 2012)

It's a Squirrel...Moose? said:


> This is the problem with elves, that nine times out of ten they could be replaced by humanity - in fact they might as well be seen as a form of humanity that we strive to be. Elves have been overdone to death in recent years.... But that s just m personal opinion



well the thing is i really wanted to write something without mankind as the main people. The human nature isn't kind and good, most of them don't even care about nature or preserving life like elves do. They just have a thirst for power and will do anything to get it. I just think i can't degrade a race that is already degraded.

Elves are probably one of the most famous mythological creatures and there is so much lore about them and so many ways to use it but most writers just over use the classical model that tolkien created. 
I want to do something different, give a new perspective to this race.


----------



## wintercub (Aug 3, 2012)

shangrila said:


> I don't think you'd _have_ to call them something different. You could keep some of the cliches to give a link or, a better way in my opinion, have the stereotypical elves being what they used to be, i.e. prideful, decadent, arrogant, learned, etc. In that way they're still "elves", just ones that have gone through the end of their world, more or less.



yes i think it makes more sense


----------



## It's a Squirrel...Moose? (Aug 3, 2012)

Humans are only as 'degraded' as the writer makes them. Writers seemed obsessed with focusing on the purely negative aspects of humanity - the greed, the inequity, etc - completely ignoring the other aspects of our existence and the positive implications of our society - the forward thinking, the advancements. In most modern writing - elves have come to represent a facet of humanity - one not blighted by the preconceived issues within our society.

However, in reaction to the Tolkein-esque vision of elfdom; with it's focus on singular acts of greatness and symbolism with the natural world - authors are in essence trying to humanize the elves. We have seen this in the rise of 'dark' elves of the Drow and Warhammer dark elves - where the perfection and arrogance of tolkien created (which was in turn, a rebranding of ancient folklore) into something dark, cruel and evil. The issue is now, however, that this reaction to a trope has become in itself a trope - the dark elves represent humanity's darker side, just as the 'high' elves represent our desires and lust for physical and societial perfection.

My issue is not so much the idea - it's proven itself to be an effective setting for stories (one can see the endless success of Fallout as an example of the appeal of a post-apoc human society reverting to a form of tribalism) - but I see your use of elves as simply another use of humanity. I personally haven't read a story where elves exist as the sole inheriators of a dying world - but I have read plenty of stories about humanity in a similar situation - and the generic 'go-to' elvish trope at the moment is to offset their physical and societal confidence with a deep-seated issue (often in the form of breeding) - often with dire results for the unity of their culture.

This is my issue with elves - that in most cases they could be replaced with humans and nothing would change. This has been seen with the development of 'high-humanity' tropes within the fiction community - humans that have gained near 'elf' life characteristics often through the adoption of a hardline religious dogma. You speak of not wanting to 'degrade that which is already degraded' - I would argue that is precisely what you are doing, albeit using elves in the situation instead.


----------



## SeverinR (Aug 3, 2012)

wintercub said:


> that's basically the essence of the elven society i have in mind



I think having the reasoning behind their actions, helps to make it more real. Rather then just a Mad Max chaotic/violent world for no reason.

Basically we see the opposite right now. Life is fairly safe, don't need a large family to survive so:
number of kids in a family is lower, women have more freedom, people focus more on relaxation and hobbies rather then 
fighting to keep what they have.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Aug 3, 2012)

It's a Squirrel...Moose? said:
			
		

> I suppose the question is this: why elves? Your idea is a semi-typical despotian world where the surviving races (in this case elves) have reverted to tribalism in order to survive. I feel tha you are using elves simply because you want t buck the usual trend of elves being haunt and perfect.
> 
> This by itself is not a bad thing. But, the dying world theme is a well trodden ground - I would be much more interested in a story that is all about how the elves became barbarians, because at the moment it strikes me that if you replaced elves with humans the story would ATM lose nothing.
> 
> This is the problem with elves, that nine times out of ten they could be replaced by humanity - in fact they might as well be seen as a form of humanity that we strive to be. Elves have been overdone to death in recent years.... But that s just m personal opinion



Trope... Schmope.

There's a reason the dying world theme is well-trodden ground. It's the ultimate ticking clock. Also, his choice of elves, purely to turn then on there head is a perfectly sound reason to choose them over another race that wouldn't contrast as greatly with their descent into barbarism.

It doesn't really matter if everyone likes elves (or dwarves, or unicorns, or pirates), or if people don't want to read about a desperate & dying world. There's always going to be a section of people that won't care for what you're writing (even within the same genre). It doesn't matter.

If you write a story that you'd enjoy reading, there are bound to be others out there, just like you, who will enjoy it also. Furthermore, what's the point of writing anything for someone else? You won't enjoy the creative process as much & perhaps you won't even finish it because you'll lose interest. This doesn't mean you shouldn't be conscious of your reader, you should. But that is in terms of the writing craft and how you spin the tale.

Furthermore, if you do call them something else do it or a reason. They have to be different enough to justify the name, otherwise you're wasting the reader's time while they figure out "hey those are elves". 

You can't say that just replacing elves with humans have the same effect for your story. It's your world and no one else's. If Elves in your world are the Tolkein-esque variety to begin then their regression into barbarism is more dramatic. We all know that humans are quite capable of barbarism... But elves?


----------



## wintercub (Aug 3, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> There's a reason the dying world theme is well-trodden ground. It's the ultimate ticking clock. Also, his choice of elves, purely to turn then on there head is a perfectly sound reason to choose them over another race that wouldn't contrast as greatly with their descent into barbarism.
> 
> It doesn't really matter if everyone likes elves (or dwarves, or unicorns, or pirates), or if people don't want to read about a desperate & dying world. There's always going to be a section of people that won't care for what you're writing (even within the same genre). It doesn't matter.
> 
> ...



wise words indeed


----------



## Ireth (Aug 3, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> We all know that humans are quite capable of barbarism... But elves?



Just look at the history of Feanor and his family in the Silmarillion, by Tolkien himself. Those guys butchered entire cities of their own kind, no less than three times, for the sake of some holy jewels that Morgoth stole from them. They were cursed by the Lord of the Dead after the first Kinslaying, but still went on to fight and kill other elves twice more. Of the original eight elves who took the Oath to reclaim the stolen jewels, six were killed in battle, one committed suicide, and the last presumably died of grief and regret.


----------



## wintercub (Aug 3, 2012)

Ireth said:


> Just look at the history of Feanor and his family in the Silmarillion, by Tolkien himself. Those guys butchered entire cities of their own kind, no less than three times, for the sake of some holy jewels that Morgoth stole from them. They were cursed by the Lord of the Dead after the first Kinslaying, but still went on to fight and kill other elves twice more. Of the original eight elves who took the Oath to reclaim the stolen jewels, six were killed in battle, one committed suicide, and the last presumably died of grief and regret.




I wouldn't consider that a barbaric act, feanor did what he needed to do to reach middle earth and stop morgoth. the telari didn't even care about the other elven clans and the dark lord. they could have just helped feanor crossing the seas. And also the "holy jewels" were not just some common artifacts, they were one of the most powerful creations made by the elves that could threat all Arda if in the wrong hands. feanor simply did what he thought it was the right thing to do, to stop morgoth at all cost. despite the slaughter he was still a noble warlord and a great chieftain, not a bloodthirsty mindless beast.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Aug 3, 2012)

Ireth said:
			
		

> Just look at the history of Feanor and his family in the Silmarillion, by Tolkien himself. Those guys butchered entire cities of their own kind, no less than three times, for the sake of some holy jewels that Morgoth stole from them. They were cursed by the Lord of the Dead after the first Kinslaying, but still went on to fight and kill other elves twice more. Of the original eight elves who took the Oath to reclaim the stolen jewels, six were killed in battle, one committed suicide, and the last presumably died of grief and regret.



My point is focused towards a general impression of the archetype... What most people think of when they conjure an image of a fantasy genre elf.


----------



## Ireth (Aug 3, 2012)

wintercub said:


> I wouldn't consider that a barbaric act, feanor did what he needed to do to reach middle earth and stop morgoth. the telari didn't even care about the other elven clans and the dark lord. they could have just helped feanor crossing the seas. And also the "holy jewels" were not just some common artifacts, they were one of the most powerful creations made by the elves that could threat all Arda if in the wrong hands. feanor simply did what he thought it was the right thing to do, to stop morgoth at all cost. despite the slaughter he was still a noble warlord and a great chieftain, not a bloodthirsty mindless beast.



In the defense of the Teleri, the Feanorians invaded their coast by force and slaughtered all who resisted rather than doing the polite thing and saying "hey, can be borrow a bunch of your ships to find the Dark Lord and get back the Silmarils? Thanks, guys." The Teleri just defended themselves against a threat and were killed.



T.Allen.Smith said:


> My point is focused towards a general impression of the archetype... What most people think of when they conjure an image of a fantasy genre elf.



Indeed. But, for many people, Tolkien's elves ARE the archetype -- this illustrates that they're not all as noble as the majority of them seem to be. Even the wise and much-revered Galadriel began as a proud warrior princess of Feanor's kindred, wanting to stake out a realm for herself in Middle-earth. It wasn't until the later Ages that she mellowed out and became the symbol of grace and beauty evident in LOTR.


----------



## wintercub (Aug 4, 2012)

Ireth said:


> In the defense of the Teleri, the Feanorians invaded their coast by force and slaughtered all who resisted rather than doing the polite thing and saying "hey, can be borrow a bunch of your ships to find the Dark Lord and get back the Silmarils? Thanks, guys." The Teleri just defended themselves against a threat and were killed.



i know that the noldor didn't take the best decisions, but still most of the elven houses were noble and kind in nature, they were beautifull, wise and immortal people, not wild barbarians. 

Tolkien didn't portrayed elves as evil beings, for that purpose he used the orcs. 

In my story i wanted to regress the elves into a more savage and tribal state.


----------



## Steerpike (Aug 4, 2012)

wintercub said:


> In my story i wanted to regress the elves into a more savage and tribal state.



Check out the Wood Elves in Warhammer. They tend to go in that direction.


----------



## psychotick (Aug 4, 2012)

Hi,

I like elves. In my first couple of books I used them as a magical, beautiful people with a touch of arrogance. In the one I'm working on at the moment, I've decreased their magic a lot, based almost all the magic on priests, and made them a bunch of bigotted, anti human, nobles, and then had the various great houses in a non stop struggle against each other for prestige, wealth and power. In short I embued them with the worst human traits I could find.

I think it works.

But as to what to callthem.If you want them to be elf like, but not hit with the Tolkein stereotypes, try calling them sprites or dryads or some such.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## Renee (Aug 7, 2012)

There are plenty of people out there (myself included) who still love the classics! I like witches and elves and fairies in my stories because they are familiar to me, and we can jump straight to the meat of the story. It's fun seeing a new take on a classic - I think that's why Twilight did so well - it's a very modern and new take on an old story. Stories with new races are great, too. I guess there's a right way to do either


----------



## The Blue Lotus (Aug 7, 2012)

Anything can be boring if you make it boring. 
If you are just rehashing the same old same then yes it will be boring. If you have a twist to an old idea then no it can be quite thrilling to read.


----------



## wintercub (Aug 7, 2012)

Renee said:


> Stories with new races are great, too.



I was hoping to avoid creating new races. 

It requires some time to explain its traits which can be quite boring and the readers might just not get the image or simply don't feel a connection to the race. I prefer using the classics because people already have an idea about how they look and i just have to change the cultural cliches.

Calm me lazy but i think it's much more fun that way


----------



## Marlyn Almyr (Aug 11, 2012)

I love elves! They are an awesome bunch.


----------



## Jabrosky (Aug 11, 2012)

I've always had some aversion to standard pseudo-Tolkien elves. They come across as the Gary Stus of fantasy: they're superior to humans and other races at _everything_. Also, the pointy ears turn me off.

The one story I've written that had elves in it made them imperialistic and racist villains.


----------



## ALB2012 (Aug 11, 2012)

I say use them if you want to. If someone does not want to read your story because it has elves in it then that is their loss. you can't build a story or a world everyone will like. I have elves in my story and although they are forest dwelling and often hunters they are slaves if captured and have no rights. They are very put down and even the "free elves" are not free.  
I would say if you are worried simply call them something else. 

If you come up with something new or different then cool and it sounds like you have.


----------



## Endymion (Aug 12, 2012)

I find that they are a clichÃ©, but I still love them. Except poorly written ones.


----------



## Svrtnsse (Aug 12, 2012)

wintercub said:


> I was hoping to avoid creating new races.
> 
> It requires some time to explain its traits which can be quite boring and the readers might just not get the image or simply don't feel a connection to the race. I prefer using the classics because people already have an idea about how they look and i just have to change the cultural cliches.



I'm in with this.
By using a well established existing races you have some great templates to work with. Readers will have a fairly good idea of what you're describing. Using a template makes it easier to emphasize your own twists and tweaks. You can focus on describing just the changes rather than all the other things that make up your race.


----------



## Gambit (Aug 13, 2012)

I only find certain stories of elves boring when all the elves have the same flawless persona and a strict beliefs they follow to the tee.

So a good mix here and there is welcomed in my book.

I've read a story once of a near extinct race of elves who were dividing of their cultural belief, many abandoning it to live amongst humans, becoming bandits, or... heh, businessmen. (Which actually worked if you can believe it.)

Heck, I once tried to write a story of an elf child being raised by her adopted human father and the struggles she goes through living in a human society.

You don't necessarly need the whole clan. It all comes down to the character themselves.


----------



## wintercub (Aug 13, 2012)

Svrtnsse said:


> I'm in with this.
> By using a well established existing races you have some great templates to work with. Readers will have a fairly good idea of what you're describing. Using a template makes it easier to emphasize your own twists and tweaks. You can focus on describing just the changes rather than all the other things that make up your race.



exactly it makes much more sense


----------



## Renee (Aug 14, 2012)

Another thought on this, from Underworld (yeah yeah, stay with me here . . .) - you can have the best of both worlds if you pick an existing, well covered race, such as werewolves. Then give them a specific origin story and a few unique characteristics, then call them something different, like Lycans. "Lycanthrope" is just another word for werewolf. You get a wonderful 'new' race without having to figure out a way to comfortably present it to your readers. I've been thinking about this thread a lot over the last couple of days, and I've been having fun trying to come up with an interesting story with elves, but my own twist on them and renaming them. Most of my ideas have come from reading the basics of the traditional elf mythology on wikipedia, and making it it with what I have here. 

So far myfavorite idea is to take a futuristic fantasy tale where a group of modern Americans crash on a lush green world that no one knows much about. They find that the people there look exactly like elves and even act very elvish, but of course they are not, they are super practical people of the forest. The running gag throughout is the one sidekick of a guy who is constantly asking their alien guide to "do something elvish."

Okay, terrible idea, I know  Moral of the story: If you want to write a race that may be a bit over played, my advice would be to read as much as you can about the traditional group, and then take what you like, add a bit more spice to it, and viola! Hopefully.


----------



## ALB2012 (Aug 15, 2012)

Yes elves don't have to be shiny, immortal, aloof etc.

They would have a society in which some people are nasty/lazy/disenchanted the same as anyone else.
They may have some form of belief or religion and it may be pagan/related to the forest etc. However if a culture lives in or near the forest it seems sensible that their beliefs are centred around it. Same as I bet anyone who lived under the shadow of the mountain thought the mountain was god, especially if it was splurting out lava

As Renee said give them a decent origin story and you should be fine. Maybe the elves are fragmented? Different tribes/clans etc. SO long as somewhere you recount why it should be OK.

You can't please everyone. People don't have to read your book if they pick it up and go "oh elves...boring" then that is their problem there are plenty of people who will go "cool elves!" Or just appreciate it for the story.


----------

