# How practical would it be to use a cave as a place of confinement?



## BloodyHellSausage (Oct 20, 2017)

(I'm mostly talking about a dry cave, because living with your feet and legs constantly under a pool of water would be impractical if you're not some sort of sea creature, to say the least.)

This is a random idea I just came up with, and I haven't fully thought of the implications of the idea, but I think a cave would be practical in one aspect, because caves are made of rock, most people would not be able to just punch through cave walls, I would imagine.

It would likely require a bit of modifying the environment, but to do that, I think you could perhaps just sturdily attach a few bars and a door to the surrounding rock, and that would take up a lot less resources than making an entire building from scratch. Or maybe you could place them in a hole of some sort, and a ladder would be lowered when the inmates are allowed to come out.

There's the problem with light, but maybe you could have lit torches, or something that glows in the dark, like bioluminescent organisms, for example.

What kind of people do you think could be confined in there? Criminals would perhaps be obvious, but what about mental patients, for instance? Do you think putting them in a cave would be a good way to treat them, or is it a bad way? What other sort of people can you think of that could be confined in a cave?

Feel free to point out any flaws you can think of.


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## skip.knox (Oct 20, 2017)

It works. You could look at the Mamertine prison in ancient Rome. You're on the right track with a hole. Roman prisoners were lowered down by rope. Light was not seen as a necessity. Attaching bars into rock is harder than it sounds. Maybe you could have a frame fitted to the opening, then attach the door to the frame. I still wouldn't bother with light.

Besides criminals I would nominate political prisoners. Honestly, though, the usual tactic was to get one's political enemy convicted of a crime anyway. No need for politics.

I'm also pretty sure that GRR Martin swiped the idea of the Eyrie from something real, but I can't put my hand to it just now. It does qualify as my very favorite prison. Don't even need torches!


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## BloodyHellSausage (Oct 20, 2017)

I want to consider light, because I'm looking for something that would be considered reasonable in a modern civilization, relatively speaking. Not something overly barbaric.

Are you talking about the sky cells?


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## Night Gardener (Oct 21, 2017)

If your WIP has anything similar to concrete, cement and other masonry technologies, modifying caves into prison cells should not be terribly difficult. You'd have to bore holes into the rock, not just for structure (marrying two materials, rock and masonry, with rebar rods)  but for some cell components as well. You can get very creative with how the cells are configured. Prisoners could be lowered into a pit, walk-in at normal grade, etc. 

Light and ventilation is a matter of...? Yep. Drilling and boring more holes. If prisoners can't access them to use as weapons, mirrors and silver /gold leaf surfaces amplify available light. Ventilation is a matter of boring holes/shafts in specific configurations to capture prevailing winds, etc. 

As to who would be 'housed' in such conditions... that environment lends itself to more dangerous prisoners IMHO. Or, maybe political troublemakers. You're constructing something that would be useful for solitary confinement and sensory deprivation. 

If you're leaning towards more modern understandings, it would not be suitable to house the mentally ill. 

The other thing to consider is emergency exits, and how the guards will be able to come and go. This also seems to be the type of environment where prisoners really shouldn't expect visitors. Although, you could have a lot of fun designing security and inner-transportation for this kind of facility.

I think, utilizing a natural formation, like a dry caldera (I say dry, because I believe this word means that there is a lake /river or spring at the bottom,  like Cave of Swallows, Mexico. Calderas are also lakes that form inside the inactive craters of volcano peaks.) An impact crater, or even an old quarry, would solve a lot of your problems logistically. The prisoners could even be lowered into the bottom of the caldera/crater to have some exercise, and still be easy to confine. Just, pull up the stairs so to speak. The prison cells could get their light and ventilation easily, but still be difficult to escape from... because rock. 

Humans have been engineering subterranean environments since... well basically forever. So, yes, it's a totally feasible idea. It will have its strengths and vulenerabilities, just like any other incarceration facility.


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## skip.knox (Oct 21, 2017)

BloodyHellSausage said:


> I want to consider light, because I'm looking for something that would be considered reasonable in a modern civilization, relatively speaking. Not something overly barbaric.
> 
> Are you talking about the sky cells?



Locking prisoners in a cave would be considered  barbaric by modern standards, so I'm not sure where you're headed with that. Modern penology is about rehabilitation and justice; pre-modern is about isolation and punishment.

The sky cells, yes. They were the cells in the Eyrie.


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## BloodyHellSausage (Oct 21, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> Locking prisoners in a cave would be considered  barbaric by modern standards, so I'm not sure where you're headed with that. Modern penology is about rehabilitation and justice; pre-modern is about isolation and punishment.



Well, I did say "relatively speaking." I came up with the idea because a cave is a natural environment, not a completely man-made one, so it's closer to nature, I think. The inmates could be allowed outside the cave to see the trees and stuff.

I'm trying to have a "fair" justice system, so to speak, but I don't think it's even close to an emulation of modern society.


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## Heliotrope (Oct 24, 2017)

Yeah, I'm not sure sticking guys in caves constitutes a "fair" justice system lol. People have used caves for dwellings, though, for thousands of years. An example would be the mesa Verde in Colorado, though there are probably hundreds if not thousands of examples all around the world. 

https://www.nps.gov/meve/learn/historyculture/cliff_dwellings_home.htm 

So yes, caves can be quite dry and comfortable, and if the rock is simple sand stone then doors and windows can be carved to let in natural light and good airflow. It would depend on the climate of your dwellings. Dry climates would be ideal, obviously. Wet rainforest would be trickier as the rock tends to be more solid granite and harder to keep dry.


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