# Fantasy Combat! Hagrid vs Gregor =)



## Sheilawisz

Welcome to the Death Match between Fantasy giants!

This is a battle between the gentle Rubeus Hagrid from the _Harry Potter_ series and the evil Gregor Clegane from _A Song of Ice and Fire_, also known as Game of Thrones. In this scenario, the usually peaceful Hagrid has some very good reason to be furious and fight savagely.

Instead of the better known film and TV versions, both characters are in their book version.

*Gregor:* According to the books, he is nearly eight feet tall. That could be 7'10'' perhaps, around 2.4 meters. Estimates for Gregor's weight are in the range of 420 pounds or 190 kilograms.

*Hagrid:* The books do not provide a precise height for Hagrid, but he is described as being twice as tall as an ordinary man and five times as wide. In case the ordinary man is 5'10'' this would make Hagrid 11'8'' tall, but he could be the full 12'. That means between 3.5 and 3.7 meters. I have not found estimates for his weight, but my own calculation indicates at least one thousand kilograms or 2200 pounds.

Gregor will have his armor, sword and shield while Hagrid will be given a sword and shield too, but no armor. They really want to kill each other, and this does not end until one of them is dead!

Who will win this ultimate Giants Death Match? XD!


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## Ban

I think Gregor would win. Hagrid would dominate the first part of the battle with his magic ability and greater height, but eventually he'd try to show mercy. In this moment Gregor does a good old eyeball squeezer and boom... Dead Hagrid.

This seems to be the most interesting scenario and also most true to the characters. It's hard to imagine Hagrid being in a violent minutes-long bloodrage. That would go against his personality, so merciful Hagrid it is... Merciful and very, very dead.


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## Jerseydevil

Gregor. He has no mercy and won't hesitate. I've seen enough fights and studied enough history to know that a hesitation of even a split second can be decisive. 
I've also seen the actor that plays Gregor train, and trust me, he's a scary, scary dude. I know that this is the book characters, not the movie or TV show, but I had to add that anyway

Thor aka 'The Mountain' deadlifts an unbelievable 450kg / 991lbs - YouTube

Road to the Arnold - HafthÃ³r BjÃ¶rnsson, Strongman - YouTube


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## ThinkerX

Has Sheila started watching 'Game of Thrones?'  Or reading the books?

Anyhow, I'd vote for Gregor, based on sheer murderousness.


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## Nimue

Why would you make Hagrid do this?  Why? ;_;


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## Drakevarg

Alright, so not only would Hagrid win, but this fight is so laughably one-sided in his favor that I'm convinced the ONLY reason there's any question as to the outcome is set squarely on the narrative perceptions of each character. So allow me to utterly destroy those misconceptions.

Hagrid is popularly seen as a complete puppy-dog of a manchild, largely thanks to being a cheerful, upbeat person who has been on friendly terms with the point-of-view character since they were a child. Gregor is a vicious, bloodthirsty lunatic of a man and is almost universally feared in his world as a giant of almost supernatural strength. Here's the thing though: _Hagrid is not from his world._ Hagrid's world is much, *much* more dangerous.

The world of Game of Thrones is a bleak, gritty world where magic is largely the realm of myth, and its few examples in-story have been by-and-large been massive turning points in the march of history. It's a world where a dragon doesn't alter the course of a battle, it alters the course of entire wars. In the world of Harry Potter, daily life is so dangerous that _having all the bones teleported out of your arm_ is considered wacky hijinks. It's a world where a dragon (which are by all indications every bit as dangerous as the ones owned by Khaleesi, if not moreso), and a brooding mother at that (which most people can tell you, there are few things more dangerous than a mother standing between you and its children), is considered an appropriate obstacle for a high school senior in a sports competition. Hagrid thought one might make a good housepet.

Gregor is incredibly strong, but his two most impressive feats actually shown are beheading a horse with his sword (which is what zweihanders are *for*) and crushing a man's skull with his bare hands. Hagrid, meanwhile, literally IS supernaturally strong. His most impressive physical feat actually shown is _tossing a man thirty feat into the air onto his roof._ In a fight where neither side was trying to kill the other.

Remember the Mountain vs. the Viper? Well take the difference in weight class between Oberyn and Gregor, DOUBLE IT, and you'd have the size advantage Hagrid has over Gregor. Gregor might be stronger than him pound-for-pound (and that's iffy, Hagrid is literally superhuman and is by no means out of shape), but Hagrid is *four times his size.* Even when you take viciousness into account, that's like comparing a Great Dane and a rhinoceros.

One might point to the fact that Gregor is a warrior and Hagrid is a wizard, bringing the "squishy glass cannon" archetype into account. No. Hagrid hasn't been a wizard since he was 14, not really. He's spent the last thirty years as the sole game warden of the most dangerous forest in Briton. And when he goes in there his weapon of choice isn't his umbrella, it's a _crossbow._ In D&D terms, he's a Half-Giant Ranger with, optimistically, a two-level dip in Wizard.

The thing is, Gregor might be universally feared in his world, but his world is a world of steel and flesh and blood. Hagrid might be considered a friend to children, but he's at home around monsters that Gregor's world considers nightmarish legends. Hagrid named one 'Fluffy.'

You put these two men in a cage match and force them to fight to the death, and Hagrid could end it by clapping. Hagrid trying NOT to kill a man launches him like he was in a car crash. Hagrid TRYING to kill a man would mean a single punch would reduce his victim's organs to precipitation, with a shield and armor being so much tinfoil around a baked potato.


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## Ireth

^ Well spoken! I wish I wasn't out of thanks!


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## Drakevarg

I didn't know you COULD run out of thanks.


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## TheKillerBs

Harry Potter wizards aren't even squishy. Example: 11-year-old Neville falls off a broom 20+ feet, only suffers a broken wrist. Also, Hagrid gets beaten up by his 16-foot full-Giant "little" brother all the time and doesn't receive any fatal injuries from it, so _he_ is most definitely not squishy.


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## Queshire

Anyway you look at it Gregor has the advantage in terms of training, skill, and willingness to kill. I don't count Hagrid's experience as a groundskeeper in this since those are _animals._ Magical animals, true, but still animals. He has no training to properly use a sword and a shield, and I'm doubtful about how much his resistance would hold up in the face of that.

Despite that though.... That extra height and weight for Hagrid is _kinda_ a big deal. In fantasy land it's not as big a deal, but realistically generally the bigger guy wins. Add to that Gregor's normal fighting style getting thrown slightly off since he's used to fighting guys smaller than him and I gotta give it to Hagrid.

Basically, if it's a matter of skill then Gregor wins hands down, attributes then it's Hagrid and in the scenario outlined, attrbitues seems more important than skill.


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## Sheilawisz

Hello everyone!

ThinkerX: No, I have not started reading Martin's books or watching the TV series either. Since some time ago I have concluded that the current Ultra Gritty trend in Fantasy is because of those works, and I want to voice my opinion that this is a bad influence on Fantasy and that too much Grit is wrong.

I have watched a lot of death and gore scenes from the series in order to criticize it more effectively, and now I think that it should be renamed _Happy Throne Friends_.

*About the fight:*

The difference in height and weight between Hagrid and Gregor is too large. Gregor trying to fight Hagrid would be like a 5'3'' and 85lb boy trying to fight Gregor, so it would be quite a laughable scene. Hagrid would probably kill Gregor with a single punch, or even pick him up and tear him in half if he wanted to.

People in other Forums have already explored this comparison, and one person suggested that Hagrid would do to Gregor the same that the Hulk did to Loki in a recent _Avengers_ movie.

A better match for Hagrid would be a Troll from the HP world or a Giant from the AsoIaf world.


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## FifthView

Does Hagrid even know how to use a sword?  Plus, Gregor wears extremely heavy armor.  A 4-foot advantage in height, plus weight, would be advantageous for Hagrid, no doubt.  But Gregor wields a sword with a six-foot blade and is strong enough to wield the two-hander in only one hand.  Hagrid's blows could be powerful, but also could glance off the armor (especially also if clumsy), whereas Gregor could gut Hagrid in one pass.  Hagrid would need to be lucky enough to intercept the sword with his shield, and I'm assuming his shield-work would also be clumsy.

Reminds me of the Hulk vs Wolverine match-ups.  From what I've read, there were three?  Each won once, but one fight ended in a draw.  When Wolverine won, the much stronger Hulk was left on the ground with his guts spilling out.


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## Drakevarg

To Hagrid, a zweihander would be an arming sword. Any way you look at it he has the advantage when it comes to reach.

I think you're severely underestimating Hagrid's strength. Gregor may wear heavy armor, but "heavy armor" in a human context is still pretty light stuff. And I can't stress enough that Hagrid's idea of a nonlethal attack is to toss a full grown man onto his roof like he was a doll. Gregor might have a speed and skill advantage over Hagrid, but Oberyn had the same advantages over Gregor, only Oberyn was way faster and way more skilled and Hagrid is VASTLY stronger.


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## FifthView

I doubt a little bit the assessment of Hagrid's strength, but not much.  But I think that Gregor's skill shouldn't be so quickly dismissed, nor the way that a sword in a skilled hand can equalize a fight when size disparity is a factor.  Hagrid might be slower, less agile.  He could reach for Gregor to throw the man but have difficulty throwing him after Gregor's sliced off half his arm.

I do think that odds are in Hagrid's favor.  But I'm not certain of Gregor's skill level, also, or his ability to assess the danger that Hagrid would pose.


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## Garren Jacobsen

FifthView said:


> Does Hagrid even know how to use a sword?  Plus, Gregor wears extremely heavy armor.  A 4-foot advantage in height, plus weight, would be advantageous for Hagrid, no doubt.  But Gregor wields a sword with a six-foot blade and is strong enough to wield the two-hander in only one hand.  Hagrid's blows could be powerful, but also could glance off the armor (especially also if clumsy), whereas Gregor could gut Hagrid in one pass.  Hagrid would need to be lucky enough to intercept the sword with his shield, and I'm assuming his shield-work would also be clumsy.
> 
> Reminds me of the Hulk vs Wolverine match-ups.  From what I've read, there were three?  Each won once, but one fight ended in a draw.  When Wolverine won, the much stronger Hulk was left on the ground with his guts spilling out.



A four foot height advantage is _huge_. That would be me fighting my one-year-old.


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## Drakevarg

Brian Scott Allen said:


> A four foot height advantage is _huge_. That would be me fighting my one-year-old.



To be fair, in this context a four foot advantage is a "mere" 50% increase in height. But because Square-Cube Law is a thing, the difference between a 6 foot man and an 8 foot one isn't nearly as much as the difference between the 8-foot man and a 12-foot one.


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## Sheilawisz

The sword that Hagrid uses in this battle is proportional to his height, so it would be a ten-foot or three meters long sword.

It's true that Hagrid is not a trained swordsman, but given his size all that he has to do is to swing it. Any impact would cause devastating damage to Gregor because of blunt force even if the blade did not cut through the armor, and even if Gregor managed to evade the swings and close the distance Hagrid would just kick him or deliver a hit with the huge shield.

In case Hagrid grabbed Gregor, he would probably toss him a great distance against a wall.

I am not sure because I do not know the character of Gregor good enough, but I guess that suddenly facing such a huge opponent would play some kind of psychological trick against him.


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## Ban

Sheilawisz said:


> It's true that Hagrid is not a trained swordsman, but given his size all that he has to do is to swing it. Any impact would cause devastating damage to Gregor because of blunt force even if the blade did not cut through the armor, and even if Gregor managed to evade the swings and close the distance Hagrid would just kick him or deliver a hit with the huge shield.
> .



I can tell you as an amateur boxer, that it doesn't matter how big or strong you are. The person with a lot of experience and technique will beat the shit out of any unexperienced bloke stronger than him. The same applies to any martial art, including swordfighting. Hagrid would most likely have no idea how to strike effectively, and due to Gregor's agility (He is known to be surprisingly agile for his immense size) he could deflect Hagrid's blows. Also, with sword fighting in particular, it is more important to be able to strike more directly, than to strike with more force. A sword isn't a club. Over a certain limit, the amount of force you put behind it will barely affect the damage it can deal. Considering both of them are incredibly strong, their strength difference becomes unimportant in this particular scenario.


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## FifthView

Plus, Gregor isn't susceptible to psychological weakness,  shock and awe--and Hagrid isn't the type to go berserk, fighting without hesitation or doubt. Any hesitation vs Gregor is probably a death sentence, since Gregor goes for the kill.

This is probably the first time Hagrid has ever held a sword.  I could be forgetting some things, but armed and armored foes possessing great skill with a sword don't feature much in Rowling's world.  One example I remember (?) is the scrawny and tiny Harry Potter defeating a much larger, more powerful foe in _Chamber of Secrets _with a sword.

In fact, I'd guess Hagrid's shield would be his most effective weapon here, due to his strength and penchant for brawling.  Incidentally, how would he be picking up and throwing Gregor, a man heavier than most of Hagrid's other human adversaries, while holding sword and shield?  If he drops those, he opens up for Gregor to strike.

Still, one sweep of that shield, or bash, and Gregor would be in trouble.  Plus, Gregor's normal fighting style could lead him into trouble if he tries blocking shield or sword with his own sword and shield, given Hagrid's strength and assuming Hagrid was able to put his full force behind the attack.  (Stance is important.)

But even in Rowling's world, 1-year-olds can force fully grown adults accross country, if we can believe Hagrid's account of his adventure with his 16-foot-tall brother Grawp. But maybe that's stretching the metaphor too far.


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## Garren Jacobsen

Banten said:


> I can tell you as an amateur boxer, that it doesn't matter how big or strong you are. The person with a lot of experience and technique will beat the shit out of any unexperienced bloke stronger than him. The same applies to any martial art, including swordfighting. Hagrid would most likely have no idea how to strike effectively, and due to Gregor's agility (He is known to be surprisingly agile for his immense size) he could deflect Hagrid's blows. Also, with sword fighting in particular, it is more important to be able to strike more directly, than to strike with more force. A sword isn't a club. Over a certain limit, the amount of force you put behind it will barely affect the damage it can deal. Considering both of them are incredibly strong, their strength difference becomes unimportant in this particular scenario.



No it doesn't. Seriously look at something ten feet tall and think about a human that big. Then think about him wielding a sword and shield that is proportionate to his size and anyone would crap his pants, including Gregor. Then the forces applied at the end of the sword from a quick strike would be ridiculous.

Here is a good size comparison one man is 6 feet tall the other 9.
	

	
	
		
		



		
			






That reach advantage alone is nothing to sneeze at. But add on just the _girth_ of dear Hagrid and you have a foe that could likely kill Mr. Clegane.


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## FifthView

The more I think about this, the more I think the fight would be decided within the first 30 seconds or minute.

It is always quite possible that Gregor could deflect Hagrid's first swing, not through brute strength alone but by footwork (moving to the side, so Hagrid's blow is a glance) and spin to come up behind Hagrid, hamstringing him in the backswing.  If Hagrid goes to his knees, unable to rise, it's over for Hagrid. 

If Hagrid gets one solid blow, most likely with the shield, Gregor's probably lost his advantage in agility and couldn't prevent Hagrid's next attack–due to unconsciousness or at least severe disorientation.

An extended fight would probably go to Hagrid.  IF Gregor possessed the kind of cleverness that Oberyn possessed, and more of The Viper's fighting style, he could probably last awhile; but, I don't think he does.  He's more likely to engage rather than avoid Hagrid's attacks.  OTOH, seeing Hagrid before him might be enough for Gregor to change up his style.


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## Ban

Yeah... no way that the big guy in that picture is only 1.5 times the normal guy's height. Also, that does not make my point invalid. An untrained person would not win a swordfight against someone with an immense amount of training. To bring up boxing again, I am a lot taller than Manny Pacquiao with much more reach, he would still knock me out in a few seconds. Sure, Hagrid would put up more of a fight against the Mountain, most likely permanently injuring him even, but an unskilled individual would not win a fight against a highly skilled and more agile opponent. 

From personal experience I can tell you that I've seen short, old men win against big, young, muscular beginners. It was barely a challenge for them, because of the experience gap. Really, try it. Go out to a local boxing club and try to fight against the shortest expert they've got.


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## Garren Jacobsen

Banten said:


> Yeah... no way that the big guy in that picture is only 1.5 times the normal guy's height. Also, that does not make my point invalid. An untrained person would not win a swordfight against someone with an immense amount of training. To bring up boxing again, I am a lot taller than Manny Pacquiao with much more reach, he would still knock me out in a few seconds. Sure, Hagrid would put up more of a fight against the Mountain, most likely permanently injuring him even, but an unskilled individual would not win a fight against a highly skilled and more agile opponent.
> 
> From personal experience I can tell you that I've seen short, old men win against big, young, muscular beginners. It was barely a challenge for them, because of the experience gap. Really, try it. Go out to a local boxing club and try to fight against the shortest expert they've got.



But the differences in height and are substantially similar, this isn't someone the relative size of a one year old fighting a 6 foot tall person. Skill and experience make up for a lot, but not that much.


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## FifthView

Brian Scott Allen said:


> Skill and experience make up for a lot, but not that much.



Not quite sure I agree.  Given the lack of armed and armored, skilled swordsmen in Rowling's world, it's a safe bet that Hagrid would not only not have much experience or skill with a sword and shield, but he would be utterly inexperienced against such a foe.  He wouldn't know what kind of attack would be coming his direction, nor what to do with the sword and shield to deflect that attack or turn it to his advantage.  Whereas, Gregor would have no experience against such a strong, large foe, but have vast experience facing foes that are armed with sword and shield.


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## Ban

That's ridiculous. Someone 1.5 times the size of another isn't the equivolent of a 1 year old fighting a very tall guy. With that metaphor you suggest that Gregor would have the bodily control of a baby, which he obviously does not. They are both full grown adults (very full) and both know how to use their muscles like an adult. 

This fight is the equivolent of a very muscular, normal guy fighting a very muscular and tall guy. The former has extensive experience while the latter does not. I am not suggesting that Hagrid would be a pushover, but his size advantage is not nearly as significant as you try to portray it as.


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## Garren Jacobsen

Banten said:


> That's ridiculous. Someone 1.5 times the size of another isn't the equivolent of a 1 year old fighting a very tall guy. With that metaphor you suggest that Gregor would have the bodily control of a baby, which he obviously does not. They are both full grown adults (very full) and both know how to use their muscles like an adult.
> 
> This fight is the equivolent of a very muscular, normal guy fighting a very muscular and tall guy. The former has extensive experience while the latter does not. I am not suggesting that Hagrid would be a pushover, but his size advantage is not nearly as significant as you try to portray it as.



I'm not saying Gregor is a 1 YO I'm saying that is the size difference, Go find a 1 or two year old and see the size difference. It is huge. Hagrid could put his hand on Gregor's head and keep him from punching him. And yes I know they are using swords, but still think about that. In this fight Hagrid has two options, either keep him at a distance or bull rush him and take Gregor to the ground. With the shield that becomes infinitely easier. I would guess Hagrid would drop the sword, charge with the shield, get Gregor on the ground and pound him down.


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## Ban

I'd agree with you if the height difference was more significant. Hagrid is "only" 1.5 times Gregor's height, a significant advantage. But it is not an insurmountable one. Personally, I have no idea how big children are at different ages (Don't judge, they all kind of look the same). But I think that Gregor would be comparible to a 10 year old in size, if Hagrid would be an average human. Considering that children don't fully control their body and muscles yet until they go through puberty, Gregor would be significantly stronger than the ten year old in question. 
All in all I think that a very strong ten year old, with full muscle control and lots of fighting experience could probably stand up to a very strong adult with almost no experience.

Also keep in mind that Gregor is significantly more agile than Hagrid and if he could manage to avoid Hagrid's bull rush, he'd only have to stab him in the back one time, to put him to the ground.


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## glutton

Brian Scott Allen said:


> I'm not saying Gregor is a 1 YO I'm saying that is the size difference, Go find a 1 or two year old and see the size difference.



Proportionally the height difference between Hagrid and Gregor is not that between an adult and a 1 year old, but more like a 6' adult and a 4' midget... 12' is 50 percent taller than 8', an adult would be several times taller than a 1 year old.


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## Ireth

Banten said:


> I'd agree with you if the height difference was more significant. Hagrid is "only" 1.5 times Gregor's height, a significant advantage. But it is not an insurmountable one. Personally, I have no idea how big children are at different ages (Don't judge, they all kind of look the same). But I think that Gregor would be comparible to a 10 year old in size, if Hagrid would be an average human. Considering that children don't fully control their body and muscles yet until they go through puberty, Gregor would be significantly stronger than the ten year old in question.
> All in all I think that a very strong ten year old, with full muscle control and lots of fighting experience could probably stand up to a very strong adult with almost no experience.
> 
> Also keep in mind that Gregor is significantly more agile than Hagrid and if he could manage to avoid Hagrid's bull rush, he'd only have to stab him in the back one time, to put him to the ground.



I disagree. Hagrid is half-giant, meaning he is far more durable than a normal human, and is explicitly shown to be so at numerous points in the series. Stunning spells and the like simply bounce off him; he's entirely unfazed after being thrown through a window (deliberately, mind you, so he could get into the castle to fight) by his half-brother during the Battle of Hogwarts; and it very likely took Voldemort's whole cadre of Death Eaters (remembering also that they had several allies among the giants as well) to even restrain him during Harry's sacrifice scene in the Forest.


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## FifthView

Anyone who has never tried to hold a toddler who is throwing a temper tantrum....well.   It's only a good thing we don't let toddlers carry hunting knives.


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## FifthView

Ireth said:


> Stunning spells and the like simply bounce off him



I thought this was due to his giant's blood, more than to total physical resilience.


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## Ban

Ireth said:


> I disagree. Hagrid is half-giant, meaning he is far more durable than a normal human.



Sure, but unless he's made of stone he isn't going to be unscathed by a well-placed sword thrust. Even if his skin is as though as that of an elephant, he'd still be unable to stop a sword from cutting deep into him. Just look at some sword tests of what a sword wielded by a normal man is capable of, and then visualise what Gregor could do with it.


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## FifthView

Gregor doesn't have to restrain the whole of Hagrid, nor even manage to hit all 12-feet and 2000lbs of him, but only has to stab or slice knees/thighs (hamstringing), throat, heart, spine, kidneys etc. Picking Gregor up to throw him would place him in range of throat and heart and face, ideal targets for pointy swords. But I don't know what kind of gauge we have for judging Hagrid's toughness against swords, given the dearth of examples from Rowling's world.


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## Ireth

FifthView said:


> I thought this was due to his giant's blood, more than to total physical resilience.



His physical resilience is a direct result of his giant blood, as I said in my original post.


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## FifthView

Ireth said:


> His physical resilience is a direct result of his giant blood, as I said in my original post.



I meant, the anti-spell effects arise directly from the blood, not from the tough skin or whatever that is also a result of his heritage.

Edit:  BUT I could be misremembering, and the anti-spell effects might be more a property of skin and flesh (results of "blood" or breeding) rather than directly from the blood.


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## Devor

Hagrid by a longshot.

Gregor has those sociopathic instincts.  But geesh, people think about the height difference, but Hagrid is also FIVE TIMES AS WIDE as a normal person.  That makes the muscle mass difference enormous beyond belief.

On top of this, Hagrid has experience roughing it up with bloodthirsty monsters and much bigger giants and not even realizing they're trying to kill him.  Gregor is used to fighting little people who are already intimidated by him.  The shock value between fighting a weakling and fighting Hagrid is immense.  You want to believe Gregor would keep to his sociopathic instincts, but believe it, he would more than flinch.  Hagrid, meanwhile, would need a minute to realize Gregor was even supposed to be a threat.  Because he's not.

Finally, dude, Hagrid has a wand.  I know that doesn't mean much, but that tiniest element of surprise can turn any battle around.


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## Sheilawisz

Wow, my Fantasy Giant battle thread has attracted a lot more of attention than I imagined!

First, in response to Nimue's comment I want to say that this was not my idea. I discovered the same discussion taking place in other sites, thought it was cool and I wanted to do the same in our site. Also, I particularly like it because it demonstrates that a character (contrary to what happens in the GoT world) can be very physically powerful without becoming a vicious killer.

It shows that a Fantasy world can have a character like Hagrid that does not abuse his great strength, that a series can feature this style of character without focusing on what they could do to other people.

Personally I dislike the idea of a furious and bloodthirsty Hagrid with a sword and a shield, because he is one of the sweetest and most likeable characters in the HP series... However, for this fanfictional battle he must be furious so he gets to use all of his physical might in the battle against Gregor.

I agree that a very well trained fighter can defeat a larger one in case that the big dude is not very good in technique, that's true. The point here is that there is a huge difference in height and weight between Hagrid and Gregor, so large a difference that the fight would look almost ridiculous.

A scaled down version of them would be a 6' and 270 pounds man fighting a boy that is 4' and 70lb.

The boy (or midget, if you prefer) would stand no chance no matter how well trained he is, and other people would immediately try to stop the fight because of moral reasons. The advantage in training can only go so far before becoming useless against an opponent that is that much larger than you are.

A Hagrid enraged and full of bloodlust is a very scary idea.


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## Penpilot

I think Gregor wins because Hagrid would first try to talk him out of it. "Now-now, can't we talk this over?"

It's at this point Gregor would just gut him. It doesn't matter if Hagrid has more flesh. It's just a bigger target for a razor sharp sword to cut.

After Gregor slices Hagrid, Hagrid survival instincts would take over, and he'd backhand Gregor a country mile. But the damage would have been done and Hagrid would bleed out with all his guts spilling out. (Sorry for the imagery.) And Gregor would die from his wounds after.

IMHO with opponents of equal skill, size will win out almost always. But when it's skill vs the untrained, skill wins.

I have a friend who got into the MMA scene, and from what he says, which can be total BS, if an opponent is obviously less skilled than you, as long as you don't do anything stupid to give them a dominating advantage, it doesn't matter how big they are. He claims to be able to tap less skilled opponents 100lbs bigger than him.

On a slight side note, this thread reminded me of this road rage incident in Texas. To me it's kind of what I imagine the fight would look like, except instead of swords it's bats.


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## Drakevarg

Part of the problem with these "it doesn't matter how big they are if they're less skilled" arguments is that they're looking at it from a normal human perspective. For normal human adults "way bigger" is like a foot taller at most and maybe 50-100 lbs heavier.

Neither Gregor or Hagrid are normal humans. This isn't "a normal sized but trained dude fighting a 6'5" guy who weighs 300 pounds but has no experience" This is "a scrawny teenager with a knife vs. an angry gorilla." Hagrid is not bigger than Gregor in the way Gregor is bigger than us. Hagrid is bigger than Gregor in the way a wolf is bigger than a pug.

Also, the terms of the match is that Hagrid is fully enraged and prepared to kill. People keep trying to give Gregor the advantage by claiming Hagrid's too nice a guy for that. This part of the narrative bias thing again. Everyone in GoT is afraid of Gregor. Harry isn't afraid of Hagrid though, _because Hagrid is a friend of his._ But we KNOW Hagrid is used to danger and HAS been in fights with people before. If given cause to fight, he WILL.



Banten said:


> A sword isn't a club.



Yes it is, honestly. Swordfighting knight-style is nothing like fencing. One swordsman I know liked to describe longswords as "three and a half foot crowbars with a pointy end." The fact that they're sharp helps sure, but the important part is that they're long strips of metal you beat people with. So from Hagrid's point of view, he may as well be beating Gregor around with a lamp post.

(Another cognitive bias, we keep talking about how Gregor has a sword he knows how to use but assume Hagrid would go in for a grab. Sheila gave him a three meter long sword. Even if he doesn't know how to use it _as a sword_, that's still functionally no different than a nine foot long length of metal pipe, giving Hagrid something like 15 foot reach over Gregor's 9. Unless Gregor can make a six foot vertical leap in full plate armor, Hagrid could take him out by just swinging back and forth and backing Gregor into a corner.)


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

I haven't read Harry Potter, but I have read ASoIaF. Gregor is beatable against a human-sized opponent. He would've lost to the Viper, except that the Viper tried to make him confess. So as far as size arguments go, Gregor was dropped by a little man with a spear, and it was a poison spear so his upset victory was not without consequence.

I think it's safe to assume that The Mountain has never encountered a bigger warrior. They exist in his world, but Gregor does well for himself because he's a bully.

I'm giving it to the twelve-footer.


----------



## Penpilot

Poking around for information on Hagrid and his possible weight, I found these resources. 

Someone did a rough calculation

harry potter - How Big is Hagrid? - Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange

So then I found this ideal weight calculator, which I used to do my own estimations

Ideal Weight Calculator

Which gave a bunch of numbers for the ideal weight for a 12ft tall person. The high range is between 545.6 lbs - 737.3 lbs

This seems a bit light so I used this calculator to refine the results. 

Height Weight Calculator

According to this calculator, if Hagrid is over 737.3lbs, he's considered overweight. As soon as he approaches 900lbs, he's considered obese. 

When I input Gregor's stats in, he comes out as just crossing the obese threshold, which shows you that BMI isn't a good indicator of health and shape. It's even worse when you put in the real life HafthÃ³r JÃºlÃ­us BjÃ¶rnsson's stats in. But I digress.

My point is to get a more accurate comparison in height and weight. So it looks like if a 12ft man had the same physique as Gregor, we could say he might weigh in around 900lbs. But from what I know, and I'm sure we can all agree, Hagrid is a bit more plump, so his weight would be higher and muscle tone less.

So how much more should Hagrid weight? I'd say 25%-50% more, depending on how "overweight" you think he is. I base this reasoning on a 6'0 200lb man, which is a similar ratio to what Gregor is and a 900lb Hagrid would be. A 6'0 250lb man is a bit out of shape. A 6'0 300lb man is probably a lot out of shape. 

So if I did this handwavium right, Hagrid is probably between 1125lbs and 1350lbs.

So it's a roughly 8ft 420lb Gregor against a 12ft 1125lb Hagrid.

So scaling down and keeping the ratios, it's like a 6ft 200lb man vs a 4ft 74lb person.

I suppose it would look something like this.









OR This


----------



## Drakevarg

You also need to keep in mind Hagrid doesn't have normal human proportions for someone with gigantism. Normally when someone is that tall, they look like a basketball player, like the picture you showed. Tall and lanky, like they've been stretched out too far. Hagrid, meanwhile, has roughly the same proportions as a grizzly bear. He's not just twice the height of a normal man, he's also described as being five times as wide. Let's be charitable and say he's roughly twice the size of a sedan if it was made out of bone and muscle instead of steel.


----------



## TheKillerBs

One thing I would like to point out is that Hagrid is not slow or clumsy, despite the movies' portrayal of him as such. In Prisoner of Azkaban he moves very quickly to wrestle an enraged predatory eagle-horse off a student, presumably going around a few students and their assigned eagle-horses unless he fortuitously had a clear path to Malfoy or was standing right next to him.


----------



## Penpilot

Drakevarg said:


> Hagrid, meanwhile, has roughly the same proportions as a grizzly bear. He's not just twice the height of a normal man, he's also described as being five times as wide. Let's be charitable and say he's roughly twice the size of a sedan if it was made out of bone and muscle instead of steel.



Five times as wide is roughly 5-6 feet wide, so his width is roughly half his height. That's not even close to twice the size of a sedan. And that's not really grizzly bear proportions. That's a person wearing one of those sumo suits proportions.


----------



## Drakevarg

I was thinking about it as like "5 grown men abreast" wide, which to me brought the image of a car pushed onto its taillights in terms of proportions. Figure you take two of those and mush 'em together into roughly a square-bottomed rectangular prism shape and you'd get Hagrid's dimensions.


----------



## FifthView

I've read several references to the fact that Hagrid was described differently in later books, going from 5-times as wide as a normal man to 3-times as wide.  I don't have the books handy so can't verify, but I found these quoted on one of those Q & A sites, copy-pasted here:



> If the motorcycle was huge, it was nothing to the man sitting astride it. He was almost twice as tall as a normal man *and at least five times as wide*. He looked simply too big to be allowed, and so wild — long tangles of bushy black hair and beard hid most of his face. He had hands the size of trash can lids, and his feet in their leather boots were like baby dolphins.
> 
> Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone - Chapter 1





> *About twice as tall as a normal man, and at least three times as broad*, Hagrid, with his long, wild, tangled black hair and beard, looked slightly alarming – a misleading impression, for Harry, Ron, and Hermione knew Hagrid to possess a very kind nature.
> 
> Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire - Chapter 12


----------



## Penpilot

Drakevarg said:


> I was thinking about it as like "5 grown men abreast" wide, which to me brought the image of a car pushed onto its taillights in terms of proportions. Figure you take two of those and mush 'em together into roughly a square-bottomed rectangular prism shape and you'd get Hagrid's dimensions.



Let's say that instead of waist size it's shoulder width. Then that means Hagrid is around 10-12 feet wide, so as wide as he is tall. That brings his proportions to looking like this. Which to me doesn't seem right.


----------



## FifthView

Ok, so I've been playing around in DAZ Studio to create some visuals.  DS has an addon for use in measuring sizes of figures, from height to waist circumference to bicep circumference to leg and arm lengths....and many more things.  So it's handy for comparing proportions.

There are some graphical errors, a lot of things I'd clean up for a more "finished" picture.  But I've already spent quite a few hours on this subject and Daz Studio can be a real time-killer, especially since I'm a hobbyist and haven't mastered the program.





Ok, so DS has these sizes for the characters in this photo:

Gregor: 7 ft, 10.9571in
Hagrid: 11 ft, 10.4726 in
Unlucky Average Human Male: 5 ft, 10.2679 in

I'm not so certain on the precise heights, had almost gone with a straight-up 8ft vs 12ft; but the books themselves are imprecise and seem to suggest heights slightly under.

Here's a line-up, but with slightly different heights and a change to widen Hagrid up a little (but not to 5-times the width of a normal human male.)





Gregor: 7 ft, 11.224 in
Hagrid: 11 ft, 11.9758 in
Average Male: 5 ft, 10.4151 in

Mostly, I added width to waist, hip, thighs, shins for Hagrid.  This might be approximately 3-times the width of that tiny feller.  Probably, Hagrid could stand to be widened a little more.  The difference in heights between the two images is simply due to the way Daz Studio changed them with re-posing, and also I think when I modified Hagrid's width slightly.


----------



## Garren Jacobsen

FifthView said:


> Ok, so I've been playing around in DAZ Studio to create some visuals.  DS has an addon for use in measuring sizes of figures, from height to waist circumference to bicep circumference to leg and arm lengths....and many more things.  So it's handy for comparing proportions.
> 
> There are some graphical errors, a lot of things I'd clean up for a more "finished" picture.  But I've already spent quite a few hours on this subject and Daz Studio can be a real time-killer, especially since I'm a hobbyist and haven't mastered the program.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, so DS has these sizes for the characters in this photo:
> 
> Gregor: 7 ft, 10.9571in
> Hagrid: 11 ft, 10.4726 in
> Unlucky Average Human Male: 5 ft, 10.2679 in
> 
> I'm not so certain on the precise heights, had almost gone with a straight-up 8ft vs 12ft; but the books themselves are imprecise and seem to suggest heights slightly under.
> 
> Here's a line-up, but with slightly different heights and a change to widen Hagrid up a little (but not to 5-times the width of a normal human male.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gregor: 7 ft, 11.224 in
> Hagrid: 11 ft, 11.9758 in
> Average Male: 5 ft, 10.4151 in
> 
> Mostly, I added width to waist, hip, thighs, shins for Hagrid.  This might be approximately 3-times the width of that tiny feller.  Probably, Hagrid could stand to be widened a little more.  The difference in heights between the two images is simply due to the way Daz Studio changed them with re-posing, and also I think when I modified Hagrid's width slightly.



But where is that glorious beard. 

That difference is in-friggin-sane. Just imagine the forces that sword could toss out at the tip. It would be astounding. One hit would crush armor and bones and likely cleave right through Gregor.


----------



## Penpilot

Wow. Fifthview, just wow. 



Brian Scott Allen said:


> But where is that glorious beard.



Maybe that's a young Hagrid, before the beard and pudding pie.


----------



## Sheilawisz

I want to explain how it was that I came to calculate Hagrid's weight as one thousand kilograms.

Some time ago, I encountered difficulty in defining the weight for the males of my Aylar species. They are called _Guardians_ and they are much taller and stronger than the females, because they evolved as protectors. The typical Aylar Guardian is 3.7 meters tall, and I had no idea how much they would weigh.

At first I tried to calculate their weight by means of the Body Mass Index thing, but the problem is that they are so out of the human scale that it's useless for them.

The solution was to calculate basing my numbers on other animals, like Grizzly bears and the _Gigantopithecus_.

A large Grizzly can weight 680 kilograms (1500lb) and measure three meters tall (almost ten feet) while standing on its hind legs. Now back to Hagrid, he is even taller than that and probably has a bulk similar to the Grizzly. As a consequence of this he would have to weight 750 kilograms or more, perhaps 800.

Perhaps the Gigantopithecus would be a better example:

The Gigantopithecus are believed to have been up to three meters tall with a weight of 540 kilograms, but according to the drawings and other representations that I have seen of them they were not as bulky as what Hagrid is described to be. One 3.5 meters Hagrid would be equal to a couple Gigantos, and that's where I got the one thousand kilograms calculation from.

The BMI thing goes out through the window as soon as you calculate basketball players, let alone Hagrid and Gregor.







In the end, I calculated my Aylar Guardians to be 720 kilograms because they are taller than the Giganto but also they are slender and elegant creatures.


----------



## Drakevarg

FifthView said:


> I've read several references to the fact that Hagrid was described differently in later books, going from 5-times as wide as a normal man to 3-times as wide.  I don't have the books handy so can't verify, but I found these quoted on one of those Q & A sites, copy-pasted here:



Perhaps he simply slimmed down in the intervening three years? Even half-giants can go on diets.


----------



## Jerseydevil

_Between rounds, Gregor's corner_ Cornerman: "Look, that was a good round, you need to work the angles. You can't be staying in the pocket like that. Rinse, don't swallow, now spit. He's gassing quick, so stay out and go for the arms. He's going to try to be a bit more aggressive this round, so keep the distance. He's going to be working the left side, so keep the shield ready. Feint and move. Take ring space from him and don't push the action. Take him into deep water and drown him." 

_Hagrid's corner_ Cornerman: "Breathe deep, breathe deep, now, keep the guard up. You landed a few good hits, but you can't be that aggressive. He's waiting for you to make a mistake, so don't give him one. That's right, just keep breathing. Watch the leg slashes, he's going to try to wear you out. Get in the center and control the ring, make him do the work. You have the range but keep the guard up and watch for his body shots. You're doing good, but we can't afford another round like that."

Joe Rogan: "Lets look at the replay of that round. Gregor's moving in here, Hagrid drops his guard for a moment, and BOOM, Hagrid slams Gregor's shield. Lets look at that again. Bang! Right on the button. I don't know how Gregor's still standing after a shot like that."

Mike Goldberg: "Well, he has shown resilience like that before. He had that controversial slit decision against the Viper of Dorne. He was impaled and still managed to eek out a win."

Rogan: "He's never faced someone larger than him before, but that's the beauty of the Ultimate Fantasy Championship. He's going to have to change up his usual strategy, and be more mobile than before. Hagrid's never fought in the cage before,I wonder what's going through his mind right now." 

Goldberg: "The break is nearly over, ready for Round 2."

I have no idea where I am going with this, but I felt I had to share it anyway.


----------



## Garren Jacobsen

Jerseydevil said:


> _Between rounds, Gregor's corner_ Cornerman: "Look, that was a good round, you need to work the angles. You can't be staying in the pocket like that. Rinse, don't swallow, now spit. He's gassing quick, so stay out and go for the arms. He's going to try to be a bit more aggressive this round, so keep the distance. He's going to be working the left side, so keep the shield ready. Feint and move. Take ring space from him and don't push the action. Take him into deep water and drown him."
> 
> _Hagrid's corner_ Cornerman: "Breathe deep, breathe deep, now, keep the guard up. You landed a few good hits, but you can't be that aggressive. He's waiting for you to make a mistake, so don't give him one. That's right, just keep breathing. Watch the leg slashes, he's going to try to wear you out. Get in the center and control the ring, make him do the work. You have the range but keep the guard up and watch for his body shots. You're doing good, but we can't afford another round like that."
> 
> Joe Rogan: "Lets look at the replay of that round. Gregor's moving in here, Hagrid drops his guard for a moment, and BOOM, Hagrid slams Gregor's shield. Lets look at that again. Bang! Right on the button. I don't know how Gregor's still standing after a shot like that."
> 
> Mike Goldberg: "Well, he has shown resilience like that before. He had that controversial slit decision against the Viper of Dorne. He was impaled and still managed to eek out a win."
> 
> Rogan: "He's never faced someone larger than him before, but that's the beauty of the Ultimate Fantasy Championship. He's going to have to change up his usual strategy, and be more mobile than before. Hagrid's never fought in the cage before,I wonder what's going through his mind right now."
> 
> Goldberg: "The break is nearly over, ready for Round 2."
> 
> I have no idea where I am going with this, but I felt I had to share it anyway.



Hagrid stands for the beginnin of the second round his Cornerman says, "You gotta remember H-Bomb you eat lightning and crap thunder. Keep working the body with the shield and don't let that son of a death eater breathe!"

Gregor rises, snarling, grabbing his shield and sword, his Cornerman says, "Your the champ Gregor. You're number one. Your fists are number one. Use your technique stick and move and gut that monster."

_Ding_

Rogan: Alright round two. Here. We. Go!


----------



## Penpilot

Rogan: Gregor sidesteps Hagrid's clumsy chop and?!?!? Drops his shield and sword? What the heck is he doing? Oh wait. He just mounted Hagrid's back. And he's got the [email protected] choke on... err... the non-consensual relations choke, the non-consensual relations choke!!!!!

The arena falls silent. The fight pauses. Awkwardness hangs like a wet fart in a full elevator.

Goldberg: Really man? Really? We came here for a wholesome disembowelling not... not that disgusting filth that just came out of your mouth.

Rogan: But-But that's the name of the hold, and I tried to G-rate it up.

Goldberg: And it's still disgusting. Look at the arena, nobody's feeling the murder any more. Look at that 12 yr-old kid. He's probably dreamed of this fight all his life and now it's ruined. All because of you.

*Ding-Ding* 

Round is over

Gregor slides off Hagrid, and they both wander uncomfortably to their corners. Their eyes never meet.

Man from Gregor's corner goes over to announcer's table: Gregor would just like to state though he is a [email protected], he's not a giant [email protected]

Rogan: Hagrid is a half-giant.

Man from Gregor's corner: He's not into half a giant either. He doesn't do necrophilia. 


(Sorry to drag this down into the mud, but my fingers just wouldn't let me not type that out. Again, sorry.) :S


----------



## Heliotrope

Penpilot said:


> Rogan: Gregor sidesteps Hagrid's clumsy chop and?!?!? Drops his shield and sword? What the heck is he doing? Oh wait. He just mounted Hagrid's back. And he's got the [email protected] choke on... err... the non-consensual relations choke, the non-consensual relations choke!!!!!
> 
> The arena falls silent. The fight pauses. Awkwardness hangs like a wet fart in a full elevator.
> 
> Goldberg: Really man? Really? We came here for a wholesome disembowelling not... not that disgusting filth that just came out of your mouth.
> 
> Rogan: But-But that's the name of the hold, and I tried to G-rate it up.
> 
> Goldberg: And it's still disgusting. Look at the arena, nobody's feeling the murder any more. Look at that 12 yr-old kid. He's probably dreamed of this fight all his life and now it's ruined. All because of you.
> 
> *Ding-Ding*
> 
> Round is over
> 
> Gregor slides off Hagrid, and they both wander uncomfortably to their corners. Their eyes never meet.
> 
> Man from Gregor's corner goes over to announcer's table: Gregor would just like to state though he is a [email protected], he's not a giant [email protected]
> 
> Rogan: Hagrid is a half-giant.
> 
> Man from Gregor's corner: He's not into half a giant either. He doesn't do necrophilia.
> 
> 
> (Sorry to drag this down into the mud, but my fingers just wouldn't let me not type that out. Again, sorry.) :S



Seated in the back of the stands the Dread Pirate Roberts, smirking, points his thumbs towards his chest, nods his chin and gloats to the lovely blond beside him, "That's my move."


----------



## FifthView

I'd like to say that was a younger version of Hagrid, or that he had to shave his beard because it had become infested with nargles, but sadly I'd simply forgotten it.  Wasn't certain I had a model for big beards...but it turns out I do!  So I've been toying around with it a little more.  Trying to think of a less ... contrived ... scenario.







*Scenario:*

Gregor Clegane is sent out by his boy-king to kill the intruder.  The fact that the intruder showed up with a dragon makes no difference whatsoever.  Gregor must prove himself to be a worthy servant to the Iron Throne.

Hagrid doesn't realize he's on the wrong continent.  He begins by trying to explain that he's looking for a scrawny, white-haired lass, in order "ter set up a breedin' program."

What the horse was thinking:  _Dude, you're breaking my back!_

What the dragon was thinking: _You think_ _that guy's heavy?  Ha!  You know nothing, my pretty little lunch!_


----------



## Sheilawisz

Hello everyone.

I wanted to say that I have just counted eight supporters for Hagrid in the posts including me, but there are only three votes for him in the Poll that is part of this thread. What is happening here? If you really support Hagrid, please vote for him in the poll as well instead of just speaking in his favor.

FifthView: Those images that you have made are great, but I prefer one that somebody posted at a different site. I think that it better illustrates the difference in height and size between Hagrid and Gregor, so I wanted to post it here.







My final argument in favor of Hagrid is that, even though he is not wearing armor for this battle, he is wearing his regular clothing. Even ordinary clothing can be surprisingly difficult to cut with a sword, not to mention that Hagrid's clothes are surely much thicker and tougher than the fabric worn by other people.

Hagrid would still be vulnerable to stabs, but Gregor would need to get within his reach to do that and then he's dead.

Do you guys watch or have watched the animated series _Happy Tree Friends_? I would post the video right here but I fear it goes against the Forum Guidelines of Mythic Scribes, so instead I'll just ask you to go to Youtube and search for the episode called *Take a Hike*.

What the bear does to Lumpy at the end is exactly what Hagrid would do to Gregor, oh yeah =)


----------



## FifthView

Hagrid with sword and shield, with a berzerker, blood frenzy is just so weird, as a starting condition.  So it's odd to postulate these things in order to "even out" the match while saying at the same time that it's a runaway, obvious win for him. I was slightly surprised we didn't say he had spelled his eyes before the match in order to be able to shoot lasers at poor Gregor.  (And a nine-foot long sword, because those are always lying around!)

Of course, he would naturally have a wand and probably a crossbow, so...Even without a weapon, he'd be a formidable foe, assuming that his dear friends had been threatened by Gregor already.


----------



## TheKillerBs

Sheilawisz said:


> If you really support Hagrid, please vote for him in the poll as well instead of just speaking in his favor.



I made a mistake when I voted and accidentally somehow pressed up before hitting the vote button, so my vote ended up being for "They kill each other" rather than Hagrid.


----------



## Sheilawisz

Hey FifthView.

At first, I considered to state as starting conditions that Hagrid and Gregor would both be disarmed. Then I figured that GoT fans would argue that it would be unfair to send Gregor to battle without his equipment, so I decided to state that he would be equipped with armor and sword as usual in order to stand a better chance against Hagrid.

I removed Hagrid's broken wand and Magic because, after all, Gregor has no Magic.

If Gregor has a giant sword proportional to his height, why not provide Hagrid with an oversized sword too? It's just fair. Hagrid is supposed to be furious and ready to kill because Gregor would be like that too, so I think that I have made the starting conditions for the fight as fair as possible.

A fight without weapons would be an even more obvious win for Hagrid.

I am surprised by the amount of support for Gregor in this thread. After all, I am still sad (as a fan of _Assassin's Creed_ games) that Altair is often criticized for being a cold blooded killer. People have disliked him for having very shallow emotions and being a cold Predator, while people seem to love Gregor for being a murderer of children and also a serial rapist.

Altair is fine to me because he simply kills people in a quick and efficient way, but if he was disemboweling his victims or flaying them alive and also abusing women in dark alleys I would have a strong dislike for him and his game.

Sometimes I find it very difficult to understand people.

I think that, in the case of this thread, people might be supporting Gregor out of the spite and even hate that many feel for the _Harry Potter_ series but... Who knows, I am not sure what is happening here.


----------



## glutton

Sheilawisz said:


> People have disliked him for having very shallow emotions and being a cold Predator, while people seem to love Gregor for being a murderer of children and also a serial rapist.



I think people like Gregor more for his actor, his skull crushing move and his in universe aura than for him being a child murderer/rapist.


----------



## Ireth

glutton said:


> I think people like Gregor more for his actor, his skull crushing move and his in universe aura than for him being a child murderer/rapist.



Yeah, um... being a child murderer/rapist is more of a reason to loathe someone's guts, IMO.


----------



## Devor

Sheilawisz said:


> After all, I am still sad (as a fan of _Assassin's Creed_ games) that Altair is often criticized for being a cold blooded killer.



Do people here make that criticism?  I mean, I think the first instinct is to judge Gregor the winner based solely on the scale of badassery.  At least, that was my first instinct - also, "NOOO!!!  Poor Hagrid!" - it was only after I thought about it a moment that I put my bet on Hagrid.

Gregor ranks high on the badass scale.  Hagrid doesn't; but he ranks higher on likability, for sure.

I don't think it's out of any particular disdain for Hagrid or Harry Potter.


----------



## Penpilot

Sheilawisz said:


> I think that, in the case of this thread, people might be supporting Gregor out of the spite and even hate that many feel for the _Harry Potter_ series but... Who knows, I am not sure what is happening here.



I won't speak for others, but I loved the Harry Potter series. And when it comes to characters, I'd rather hang with Hagrid than Gregor.

My "support" for Gregor is for the most part a dispassionate one. If this fight were to happen, I'd be cheering Hagrid, but I really do think Gregor would win.

In a life and death battle mental demeanour and skill can play a huge part. Size though significant means nothing without the will and skill to use it effectively. 

I mean take a look at this. A chained up dog takes on a not so willing polar bear.






The polar bear could crush the dog. Heck, hungry polar bears eat dogs. But the bear doesn't really want any of it and gets chased away.

How about one cat vs five dogs

Cat Defends its Friend From Dogs - YouTube


----------



## TheKillerBs

But that example is a polar bear that doesn't want to fight. In this scenario, Hagrid has a reason to want to hurt Gregor. Imagine if that polar bear was a mother with her cubs. What do you think would happen to that dog?


----------



## Sheilawisz

Hey everyone.

Devor: Yes, people expressed that style of criticism against Altair in one of my old Assassin's Creed threads. Also, almost every AC fan that I have talked to feels the same way... I mean that they often regard Altair as an unlikable and uninteresting character, all because of his general coldness and lack of emotions in comparison to other characters.

With that in mind, I expected that almost everyone would support Hagrid in this thread.

I agree that Gregor ranks higher in the badass scale, but only because he is a villain. Hagrid has performed some pretty badass things as well (twisting a shotgun like it was made of rubber, tossing Walden Macnair across the Great Hall and defeating several Aurors at the same time) but because he is a good guy, people are less impressed by him.

Also, most people have the smaller and sweeter film version of Hagrid in mind, instead of the truly gigantic Hagrid of the books.

I am under the impression that Gregor's fans would argue that he would bring down a Tyrannosaurus Rex and other similar beasts, so I am going to stop offering more arguments in favor of Hagrid. We have already presented very clear points that indicate a very easy win for HP's giant, after all.

Maybe I should have made the battle with both characters disarmed, that would have been clearer.


----------



## Penpilot

Sheilawisz said:


> I am under the impression that Gregor's fans would argue that he would bring down a Tyrannosaurus Rex and other similar beasts, so I am going to stop offering more arguments in favor of Hagrid. We have already presented very clear points that indicate a very easy win for HP's giant, after all.



Ok, I thought this was supposed to be for fun, but I find this response really dismissive. It's saying my opinion isn't based on anything sound, and the only reason I'm saying Gregor would win is because I some how like him as a character more than Hagrid.

I don't know how many logical fallacies are being committed here, but I'm willing to bet quite a few.



Sheilawisz said:


> Maybe I should have made the battle with both characters disarmed, that would have been clearer.



And from this, I get the feeling that point of this thread was to talk about how awesome Hagrid is, not to discuss who one thinks would win. Because once you disarm Gregor, that swings all advantage towards Hagrid. The equalizing factor is Gregor's skill with the arms and armor.

Why don't we cut to the chase and just say Gregor is naked and has his arms and legs broken, and Hagrid is controlling the Death Star.


----------



## Heliotrope

Ummmmm... Neither of them _actually_ exist... We do understand that right? 

Dwight Shrute: What is the ratio of Stanley Nickels to Shrute bucks? 

Stanley: Same as the ratio of unicorns to leprechauns. 

Oh wait... Are we going to argue that now?


----------



## CrystalCHTriple

Gregor, and only because Hagrid is not giving the weapon to which he is accustom. In reality, both would be lumbering targets.


----------



## TheKillerBs

CrystalCHTriple said:


> In reality, both would be lumbering targets.



Just because they're big doesn't mean they're slow. Both Hagrid and Gregor are quite quick. I really hate fighting games for that whole slow, lumbering giant notion they've put into people's heads.


----------



## Sheilawisz

Hey Penpilot.

Sorry if my reply felt offensive to you. It was indeed dismissive because I do not intend to keep providing arguments in favor of Hagrid, having already explained all of my points. I know that I will not convince you that the difference in size is too great, and you are not going to convince me that Gregor's skill would be enough to win against an opponent five times larger than him.

So what's the point of continuing it?

I started this thread, but the whole idea of Hagrid vs Gregor has been discussed in other sites before. My intention to start it here was to have fun with what I expected to be a vast majority of opinions in favor of Hagrid (because yes, I have developed quite a grudge against GoT in general), and I had a lot of fun at the beginning but now I see that we cannot come to a conclusion.

Again, I am sorry if my comments made you feel angry or offended, that was not my intention.


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## CrystalCHTriple

TheKillerBs said:


> Just because they're big doesn't mean they're slow. Both Hagrid and Gregor are quite quick. I really hate fighting games for that whole slow, lumbering giant notion they've put into people's heads.



It has to do with reality (which makes my comment rather meaningless and just plain pedantic as the thread is not a critique of fantasy realism), a perspective gained by having some practice with Olympic wrestling and extrapolating that into a situation involving sharpened metal bars and foot movement, not a perspective gained from a genre of video games I do not even play. And it is not just a matter of height but weight. Oberyn (in the book) making Gregor look like a mess of winded indiscipline with his finesse does not beggar belief, to me, considering I sprinted alongside offensive and defensive linemen and thus have an idea of how size can be a detriment in some cases.

Moving around in armour and _chasing_ after someone a lot quicker than you is not fun.


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## Garren Jacobsen

CrystalCHTriple said:


> It has to do with reality (which makes my comment rather meaningless and just plain pedantic as the thread is not a critique of fantasy realism), a perspective gained by having some practice with Olympic wrestling and extrapolating that into a situation involving sharpened metal bars and foot movement, not a perspective gained from a genre of video games I do not even play. And it is not just a matter of height but weight. Oberyn (in the book) making Gregor look like a mess of winded indiscipline with his finesse does not beggar belief, to me, considering I sprinted alongside offensive and defensive linemen and thus have an idea of how size can be a detriment in some cases.
> 
> Moving around in armour and _chasing_ after someone a lot quicker than you is not fun.



The problem with this statement is that you are judging lateral quickness based on straightline speed. There is a significant difference between the two. The better test would be to look at 20 yard shuttles and three cone drills. The lighter guy will, of course, be quicker but the differences wouldn't be as great as some people assume.


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## TheKillerBs

CrystalCHTriple said:


> It has to do with reality (which makes my comment rather meaningless and just plain pedantic as the thread is not a critique of fantasy realism), a perspective gained by having some practice with Olympic wrestling and extrapolating that into a situation involving sharpened metal bars and foot movement, not a perspective gained from a genre of video games I do not even play. And it is not just a matter of height but weight. Oberyn (in the book) making Gregor look like a mess of winded indiscipline with his finesse does not beggar belief, to me, considering I sprinted alongside offensive and defensive linemen and thus have an idea of how size can be a detriment in some cases.
> 
> Moving around in armour and _chasing_ after someone a lot quicker than you is not fun.



You want to talk about reality? First of all, according to historians, re-enactors, and HEMA people, plate armour does not significantly affect your movement due to its weight distribution. If you are agile out of armour, you will still be agile in armour.

Second, and I love that you pointed out working with linemen, NFL linemen, while slow compared to other NFL athletes, are still quite fast compared to the average person.

Third, as Brian pointed out, what I meant by quickness was not straight-line speed, but rather burst, sudden/start-stop movement, lateral agility, and the like.


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## FifthView

A lot of quickness is also due to muscle memory, training, mental acuity, and a number of other things rather than mere physical capability.

For instance, a swordsman used to reacting quickly to another swordsman's flashing sword, footwork, and so forth might have an edge on the fighter who typically stands back to shoot a crossbow or wave a wand, or who grapples like a wrestler, using strength to overpower rather than speed.  (NOT that I'm saying a wrestler doesn't need somewhat quick reflexes vs another wrestler.)

I remember a discussion on MS about the Netflix show _Jessica Jones_.  In the course of mentioning a few negatives, I made a comment about how Jessica Jones, who is quite strong compared to a normal human, was tackled by a regular guy and lay on the floor under him long enough to let the bad guy get away (yet again!), as if she couldn't throw her tackler off–despite having previously shown she could leap very high into the air while holding a full-grown man.  Regarding the fact that a normal human could tackle Jessica Jones, someone else made the comment, rightly so, that base strength is not the issue so much as stance/center of gravity, or some such.  And I agree (even if that doesn't explain how, from a lying position, Jessica Jones couldn't remove her tackler rather easily and quickly.)  Like speed, base strength isn't always a measure of what a person can do or prevent, depending on the circumstances.  In the case of Hagrid:  If he has a firm stand and gets a straight shot, he could put a LOT of power behind a punch; but if he's trying to swat a quickly moving target who is not where he thought the target would be just a second before, he might not be able to put as much strength behind a given blow.  I.e., if he begins a punch, the target moves, and he has to redirect his punch, a lot of force could be lost.   (But if he's in a berzerker rage, swatting furiously in every direction without regard to where his target is, perhaps each swat would be quite strong.  In this case he's also depending a little on luck, to get the good hit.)

When I first voted in the poll, I was one of those who voted for a fairly easy Gregor win.  But that was before many had commented in this thread.  In the course of this debate, I've grown far less certain of that outcome.  I think I'd still have to default to a comment that I made earlier:  The outcome of the fight would probably be determined within the first minute or so.  I just don't know what that outcome would be.


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## TheKillerBs

I think it would be decided in the first few seconds and I am pretty confident on the outcome. You see, I do agree with you that if Hagrid attempted to fence with Gregor, he would lose. Quite easily, I might add. However, I don't think he would. Like you pointed out, Hagrid could just swipe at Gregor, which would require a lot of luck IF Hagrid didn't have a big, flat surface he could grip in his hand to increase his margin for error to nearly 100%. Quite frankly, I just see Hagrid gripping the shield from the edge and swinging it about. This shield, sayeth the scenario creator, would be scaled to his size, which would make it just a bit smaller than Gregor. The only way I can see Gregor not being reduced to a crumpled up ball of tin foil within 10 seconds is if he legs it, and even then I'm not sure he would be able to outrun Hagrid. Those giant legs would cover A LOT of ground with each step.


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## FifthView

TheKillerBs said:


> I think it would be decided in the first few seconds and I am pretty confident on the outcome. You see, I do agree with you that if Hagrid attempted to fence with Gregor, he would lose. Quite easily, I might add. However, I don't think he would. Like you pointed out, Hagrid could just swipe at Gregor, which would require a lot of luck IF Hagrid didn't have a big, flat surface he could grip in his hand to increase his margin for error to nearly 100%. Quite frankly, I just see Hagrid gripping the shield from the edge and swinging it about. This shield, sayeth the scenario creator, would be scaled to his size, which would make it just a bit smaller than Gregor. The only way I can see Gregor not being reduced to a crumpled up ball of tin foil within 10 seconds is if he legs it, and even then I'm not sure he would be able to outrun Hagrid. Those giant legs would cover A LOT of ground with each step.




I do agree that the shield is a major factor, and I said as much in an earlier comment.  But I also think that something's not quite right with the initial conditions given for the fight.  To make the fight "fair," Hagrid is given a sword and shield; and so in all "fairness," he obviously wins outright in 2 seconds.  OK.

Even so, he's never used a shield and sword before, in all likelihood, and he's never had to anticipate the moves of a skilled swordsman.  Perhaps if he goes into the fight after having read this thread, he'll know to start swinging his shield wildly from the first second.


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## TheKillerBs

I'm not saying that because I think he would do it because that would give him the best chance to win, I think he has the best chance to win because that's what I think he would do. Like you pointed out, Hagrid has never used a shield and sword before, but he has fought before, both man and beast. And while he has never used them, he knows what they are and what they are for, so he would know that the sharp, pointy, steel stick is dangerous. And he knows that the round flat thing is supposed to keep the sharp, pointy, steel thing away. And to Hagrid, the guy in steel clothing is only dangerous because of the sword, so his instinct would be to swipe at it with the shield. And quite frankly, that swing is pretty much unavoidable if Gregor is within reach, and even if he only gets within reach after the swing, he'll still be hit by the back swing.


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## FifthView

I'd like to point out that "proportional" size for weapon and shield was specified only after the fact by the poll creator.  Initially,



Sheilawisz said:


> Gregor will have his armor, sword and shield while Hagrid will be given a sword and shield too, but no armor. They really want to kill each other, and this does not end until one of them is dead!



it's not specified.  This isn't an argument pro or con Hagrid's win, but one added reason for my initial vote, since my mind hadn't at the time filled in the blank for size of sword and shield.

And we still don't know the size of the shield.  There are, after all, many different kinds of shields, of varying sizes relative to the wielder.

But even if we suppose that Hagrid's shield is nearly the size of Gregor, the fact of the matter is that Hagrid needs to cover a size more like his own.  That's nearly twelve feet of a very broad half-giant.

I do believe that the shield is a major factor and that odds are in Hagrid's favor because of the shield (and other factors.)  But if Gregor is reading this thread, perhaps he might decide before the battle begins to open by running straight at Hagrid and, just as Hagrid sweeps his shield, slide under it and swipe at the half-giant's ankles.  I know that Gregor can nearly cut the head off a horse; but that's with a good stance.  So maybe he couldn't chop Hagrid's foot cleanly off, but he might make it halfway through—enough to hobble Hagrid.  And he could come up behind Hagrid, who'd probably be in quite some pain and a little surprised.

Still, nothing's certain, and the move might not work.


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## TheKillerBs

Yes, that could be a very effective tactic if Hagrid gripped the shield properly, as opposed to by the edge as I believe he would. Mostly because the mental image of someone trying to keep a rabid dog at bay with a trash can lid popped up into my mind as I was reading the thread, and I'm not really married to the idea. Hagrid is smart, I'm sure he could figure out the proper way to grip a shield just by looking at it. But yes, if Gregor knew it was coming he could do some damage by sliding. However, I doubt that, without a proper stance and especially without the muscle memory of training how to cut someone's legs while he slides, he could do manage to make a cut deep enough for muscle or ligament damage unless he was _really_ lucky on where the blade sliced.


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## Drakevarg

I would like to point out that from a defensive standpoint, you really don't need a very big shield to deflect sword blows. Bucklers existed for a reason. Now, I wouldn't argue that Hagrid would know how to use a proportionately-buckler-sized shield effectively, but on the off chance he could figure it out intuitively it would function as a sort of cone of defense directed back at himself. Fairly minimal movement would allow him to send blows sliding away from him.

Since basic sense would argue he's using some Westerosi shield, on the other hand (it's not like he'd be liable to own one himself), I think a basic kite or round shield would be more likely. Finesse isn't exactly a popular approach in that country. Which also factors in to why I don't think Gregor's training would help much against someone with Hagrid's huge advantage in reach, strength, and durability. Gregor is trained as a shock trooper, not a fencer. That's not to say he doesn't know how to move - he clearly does - but he'd hardly be doing elegant capoeira around Hagrid while the half-giant lumbered around stupidly like a miniboss from a vidjagame.

This fight has a lot of semblance to the Mountain vs. the Viper in that it's a smaller, more skilled opponent against a much larger and stronger one, but the main difference is that Oberyn had a lot more speed and agility relative to Gregor than Gregor has to Hagrid, and Hagrid is way bigger and way stronger in proportion to Gregor than Gregor was to Oberyn. And Oberyn was doomed the very second Gregor landed a solid blow on him. It'd be a very similar fight, only with less swagger and with the smaller combatant not in any way accustomed to fighting opponents larger than himself.


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## Sheilawisz

CrystalCHTriple said:


> Gregor, and only because Hagrid is not giving the weapon to which he is accustom. In reality, both would be lumbering targets.



I think what Crystal means is that, if these characters were real, they would not be nearly as strong and powerful as they are in their worlds. I agree with her, because even though there are and have been men as tall (and even taller) than Gregor, they would not be good warriors.

In my opinion, the maximum height for a healthy and efficient male human warrior would be seven feet. Many health problems start to develop when a person grows beyond that height, and even though some of them can play Basketball and other sports it would not be a good idea to send them to a battle.

A 7'8'' or perhaps a 7'10'' Gregor in the real life would be a poor fighter, and Hagrid is even more impossible than that.

Crystal: What would be Hagrid's best weapon, in your opinion? I considered to give him the crossbow, but that would have made the fight even more unfair just like the wand and magic would do.



FifthView said:


> I do agree that the shield is a major factor, and I said as much in an earlier comment.  But I also think that something's not quite right with the initial conditions given for the fight.  To make the fight "fair," Hagrid is given a sword and shield; and so in all "fairness," he obviously wins outright in 2 seconds.  OK.



Hey Fifthview. I see that Gregor's supporters are very annoyed because of the unfairness of the fight. I said before that I tried to make the initial conditions as fair as possible, not that I would make it really fair. To me, the fight is so obviously unequal any way you look at it that the only way for Gregor to win would be to have a machine gun or a missile launcher.

I wanted Hagrid to have a shield instead of a full suit of armor, because if Gregor has near complete protection for his body then Hagrid should have some defenses too.



FifthView said:


> I'd like to point out that "proportional" size for weapon and shield was specified only after the fact by the poll creator.



It would be very weird to see Hagrid carrying a normal sized, 3 and a half feet sword and an ordinary shield, so I assumed that people would automatically imagine weapons scaled up to meet his size. Alright, I accept that the ten feet long sword is too much, so... What about an eight feet sword?

The shield is circular, about four feet in diameter and made of wood with edges reinforced with steel.

Please don't be annoyed at me anymore because of my Tyrannosaurus joke. Some funny pictures to illustrate what Hagrid's body could look like were posted and I didn't like them, but I know that it was just for fun. Banten pointed out that calling you Gregor's fans was harsh from me, but why is that?

Even if I had called you fanboys, I don't see why that would be bad. I am a fangirl of HP and also a Frozen fangirl, and that's fine. The reason that explains why I became confused is that I never expected that there would be strong support for Gregor, and I became dismissive because people were ignoring my arguments and my initial conditions from the start.

I am sorry, in case I managed to get you too mad at me.


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## TheKillerBs

A 12' (about 4 metres?) tall human is a physiologic impossibility, so "in reality" Hagrid would not be any sort of target. He just wouldn't _be_.


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## Devor

In my opinion the appropriate fight question is Gregor in full armor against Hagrid with a crossbow and wand.  Trying to give Hagrid a sword and shield, I think, adds too much uncertainty.  That does raise the thought, though - think about how powerful a crossbow would have to be if it was tuned to Hagrid's strength.  Geesh, it would rip through Gregor's armor like paper.


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## CupofJoe

Oh... by the gods... 80+ posts and STILL no consensus.
Enough! I cry
 Enough already!


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## Svrtnsse

CupofJoe said:


> Oh... by the gods... 80+ posts and STILL no consensus.
> Enough! I cry
> Enough already!



Write a story about it. Maximum 5000 words. Best fight wins. You've got one week.


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## Devor

CupofJoe said:


> Oh... by the gods... 80+ posts and STILL no consensus.
> Enough! I cry
> Enough already!



My two year old broke my mug this morning and spilled my coffee all over the floor.

Don't make me do the same.


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## Svrtnsse

Scratch that. Let's have a fight between Tea and Coffee instead.


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## FifthView

I say, let's put Rowling and GRRM in a cage match and see what happens.


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## CupofJoe

Svrtnsse said:


> Scratch that. Let's have a fight between Tea and Coffee instead.


I'm a lover not a fighter...
Unless I can inspire the essence of certain Ethiopian Mountain Estate's cold roast single bean coffee to infuse me. 
Then I'm all FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Did I mention that I have family that import exotic coffees?
But I think 5th View has it... Let the authors work it out.
My money is on JK...


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## Garren Jacobsen

CupofJoe said:


> I'm a lover not a fighter...
> Unless I can inspire the essence of certain Ethiopian Mountain Estate's cold roast single bean coffee to infuse me.
> Then I'm all FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Did I mention that I have family that import exotic coffees?
> But I think 5th View has it... Let the authors work it out.
> My money is on JK...



Sidebar, you need to make a magic system based off of coffee.


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## Svrtnsse

Brian Scott Allen said:


> Sidebar, you need to make a magic system based off of coffee.



The dark roast art of Coffomancy.


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## FifthView

Brian Scott Allen said:


> Sidebar, you need to make a magic system based off of coffee.



I'd make it something like Sanderson's allomancy from his Mistborn books, except imbibing different drinks has different effects.  Coffee, tea, hot chocolate, beer, tequila, and lemonade do different things.


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## Devor

FifthView said:


> I'd make it something like Sanderson's allomancy from his Mistborn books, except imbibing different drinks has different effects.  Coffee, tea, hot chocolate, beer, tequila, and lemonade do different things.



Yep. So, give Gregor a shot of coffee, and Hagrid a shot of tea.  NOW who wins?


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## FifthView

Devor said:


> Yep. So, give Gregor a shot of coffee, and Hagrid a shot of tea.  NOW who wins?



Probably Gregor, simply because a) Hagrid has a natural resistance to poisons and such, so I doubt the effect of the tea on him, and b) Hagrid has much larger body mass anyway so Gregor will gain more benefit when both get a mere shot.


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## glutton

CupofJoe said:


> Oh... by the gods... 80+ posts and STILL no consensus.
> Enough! I cry
> Enough already!



There's often never a consensus on these things.


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## Legendary Sidekick

I think these death matches are hard to enjoy when one or both characters are likable. We had Arya killing Herimone once in a death match thread, and it was a close and exciting match. The thread died, likely because two preteen heroines just brutalized each other, and it kind of leaves a sour taste, though it's just in fun.

They have these hero vs. hero movies coming out--Capt. America vs. Iron Man, Batman vs. Supes... I think that's lame. Fanfic on a blockbuster budget? What's the fun of seeing superheroes go at it after a decades-long alliance/friendship/super-friendship?


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## Penpilot

Legendary Sidekick said:


> They have these hero vs. hero movies coming out--Capt. America vs. Iron Man, Batman vs. Supes... I think that's lame. Fanfic on a blockbuster budget? What's the fun of seeing superheroes go at it after a decades-long alliance/friendship/super-friendship?



I think these movies are a bit different. There are story based reasons for these things. The Captain America movie is based on a comic book storyline where Captain and Ironman have a ideological disagreement that puts them on opposite sides of a "Civil War" of superheroes. 

Then there's Batman Vs Superman. They've always been at odds with each other about ideology. What made things special in my eyes was their friendship in spite of their differences. They're just playing off of that, and by the end of the movie they'll be smoochie smoochie.

And remember, the most bitter rivals often started off as good friends. And sometimes the opposite of that happens too. Bitter rivals set aside their differences and become friends.


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## Legendary Sidekick

I don't doubt this is based on canon, but when you're not following the comics who is Batman? He's the campy man in tights who makes cartoon letters appear when he punches villains, then he becomes a hoarse whisperer in a breast plate with nipples, but you know whose side he's on.

Who is Superman? He's the clean-cut bumbling nerd who removes his specs and will turn the world backwards to save his love, Lois Lane, who he later knocks up and immediately hides in outer space to avoid paying child support. Aside from being a deadbeat dad, you know whose side he's on.

Now there's a preview with the two beating the crap out of each other. Who do I root for? Is it gray vs. gray—superheroes with this gray morality crap, where everyone's a hero until an agenda changes that? Is there a villain instigating the fight so that, halfway into the movie they're buddies again, so the "Vs." in the title is really an ampersand's secret identity?

The answer doesn't matter. I'll just watch Supergirl on TV for my superhero fix. It's a little corny, but I kinda like that for superhero stuff.


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## Penpilot

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Now there's a preview with the two beating the crap out of each other. Who do I root for? Is it gray vs. gray—superheroes with this gray morality crap, where everyone's a hero until an agenda changes that? Is there a villain instigating the fight so that, halfway into the movie they're buddies again, so the "Vs." in the title is really an ampersand's secret identity?



To me, the answers are all in the trailers. I mean this movie takes place in the Nolan Batman universe, which includes Man of Steel. They're creating a shared universe like Marvel, so none of the other movies outside of those involving Nolan are cannon. If you've seen those movies, you'd know who these characters are generally within that context.


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## Legendary Sidekick

You're obviously more well versed in this stuff than I am. To me, I think having multiple alternate universes takes something away. You have all these different versions of the same character, it just seems like what I would do as an aspiring writer--keep tweaking my characters, who are not yet established.

I think when a character is famous, consistency would be nice. Look at Han Solo. He's the same guy in the next generation of Star Wars, and in books I read, I though authors did a great job writing him. I never came across a different Han (other than the Han that let Greedo shoot first). I appreciate the authors for not recreating Han Solo in their own image.


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## CrystalCHTriple

TheKillerBs said:


> You want to talk about reality? First of all, according to historians, re-enactors, and HEMA people, plate armour does not significantly affect your movement due to its weight distribution. If you are agile out of armour, you will still be agile in armour.
> 
> Second, and I love that you pointed out working with linemen, NFL linemen, while slow compared to other NFL athletes, are still quite fast compared to the average person.
> 
> Third, as Brian pointed out, what I meant by quickness was not straight-line speed, but rather burst, sudden/start-stop movement, lateral agility, and the like.



1) You did not even ask for clarification? Interesting. Regardless, recall the chasing part in my comment, which is what Gregor did to Oberyn. If you and your sources want to believe extra mass would not require more energy, you and your sources are welcomed to believe so.

2) Where did I imply that I played in the NFL? I do love your assumptions, however. Not really. Should there be a reply, I hope it will be the last as I see no benefit in further communicating, or attempting to communicate. Anyway, the same basic movements apply to high school players, and you mentioned average people when Gregor and Hagrid are not average? Fair enough.

3) This will also be a reply to Brian. I felt no need to mention the various lateral drills as sprinting, at the start, involves swift foot movement, and faster people, surprise, tend to be more agile. Moreover, I did mention size in respect to that. Bigger athletes tend to get winded faster than smaller athletes, in sprints and in other drills, but I guess none of that matters, or ever did as no one bothered to ask for clarification. Very well. I guess comes the difficult part in expecting better communication when posting content related to worldbuilding and being willing to engage with the same people.

Just you: I could have directed you to the many matches with the Big Show and the Great Khali so that you could see how encumbered their movements are compared to smaller wrestlers but your fair assumption about what I based my perspective compelled me to do otherwise. Nonetheless, I will assume responsibility for this failure — real or imagined — in communication.

*Correction:*

In my first comment I stated I had some practice with Olympic wrestling, which might imply I was that good (absolutely not). It was _amateur_ wrestling.


"What would be Hagrid's best weapon, in your opinion? I considered to give him the crossbow, but that would have made the fight even more unfair just like the wand and magic would do."

@ Sheilawisz

Magic. This question is akin to who would win between Superman and Goku, which would be Goku if you recall Superman's weakness to a particular light we can produce... emit... in abundance. Comparing characters from different universes is inherently unfair for a similar reason, removing one's basic method of defense even more so.


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## Sheilawisz

Hey there.

The point is that even though both Hagrid and Gregor are very fast and healthy in their worlds, they would be rather slow and poor fighters in the real world. Actually Hagrid could not exist, he is too damn big. If we can agree that they are unrealistic, then there is no need to have a debate regarding this issue.

Please let's refrain from posting more heated comments, alright? 

When I started this thread, I never thought that it would escalate so much. In case other Mods agree with me that it should be locked, then I'll proceed to lock it and we can forget about everything that was posted here.

Crystal: Yes, I agree with you that comparing characters from different universes always causes trouble and I'll never do it again.


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## Penpilot

Legendary Sidekick said:


> You're obviously more well versed in this stuff than I am. To me, I think having multiple alternate universes takes something away. You have all these different versions of the same character, it just seems like what I would do as an aspiring writer--keep tweaking my characters, who are not yet established.



I can't argue with you there. I think in general, those familiar with comics are used to different continuities and don't have trouble changing gears. I mean in DC and Marvel there's the multiverse. In DC it used to be infinite continuities, which they pared down to 52. In Marvel, I believe there's still infinite continuities. And within these companies they do cross-overs where different versions of the same character interact. 

In the Flash TV show they've begun introducing the multiverse with the introduction of Earth-2, a parallel world with different versions of characters.

Even within a continuity, characters can change drastically, when writing teams change. Sometimes it can be for the better. Deadpool went from bland villain of the week to a wisecracking merc with a mouth. Other times, it can be eyebrow raising at the least.


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