# The Rings of Power: Discussion Thread



## Righmath (Sep 3, 2022)

Greetings Nerds!

I've decided to create this thread to discuss all things Rings of Power related. As many of you probably know, the first two episodes were released yesterday on the 2nd September. 

I know there was a lot of discourse in the running up to the release, with perhaps some Tolkien purists becoming uneasy on what was shown prior. However, let us discuss these things here. 

Did you like the show? Do you think (so far) it does protrays Tolkien's work well? Let me know!

I'll post my thoughts/questions in the next post below.


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## Righmath (Sep 3, 2022)

Ok, so I really enjoyed it. Obviously there has been no expense spared on the production and the special effects; the cities, fight scenes, and just general landscapes are a pure joy to watch.

I think the first two episodes also left you with enough thirst quenched before the next episode. What do you think the series is building up to? The last alliance maybe?

Also who is the guy in the meteor? It can't be Gandalf as some on twitter are saying. Most likely one of the 'Blue Wizards'....


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## Lynea (Sep 3, 2022)

I've been enjoying it. I don't know enough of the source material to piece together what's going on, but so far it's intriguing. I sort of wish they would spend more time on the Silmarillion stuff instead of just blowing through it as an exposition. I also wish the scene with the sea worm was an actual battle and not just a plot device. But, for all its quick-pacing, I can appreciate what they're doing. 

I can tell they're trying to limit the CGI monsters and such-- where they can. 

No idea who the Istari is, but I'm hoping it's Aruman.


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## Righmath (Sep 3, 2022)

Yeah I suppose the sea worm scene was pretty quick come to think about it. I need to read it again, I read it so many years ago so I've just ordered a new copy today!


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## Reaver (Sep 3, 2022)

I wouldn't mind it if they actually followed the lore. I get that all they have is the rights to the appendices and don't have much to work with but making Galadriel a warrior is just pure fanfic.


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## pmmg (Sep 3, 2022)

I feel watching it will just make me sad. Im gonna pass.


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## Righmath (Sep 3, 2022)

Reaver said:


> I wouldn't mind it if they actually followed the lore. I get that all they have the rights to the appendices and don't have much to work with but making Galadriel a warrior is just pure fanfic.


Really? I found this re: Galadriel

"So it came to pass that when the light of Valinor failed, for ever as the Noldor thought, she joined the rebellion against the Valar who commanded them to stay; and once she had set foot upon that road of exile she would not relent, but rejected the last message of the Valar, and came under the Doom of Mandos. Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Fëanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Fëanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could." - the Unfinished Tales.


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## Righmath (Sep 3, 2022)

pmmg said:


> I feel watching it will just make me sad. Im gonna pass.


Drama queen


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## pmmg (Sep 3, 2022)

<--


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## Reaver (Sep 3, 2022)

Righmath said:


> Really? I found this re: Galadriel
> 
> "So it came to pass that when the light of Valinor failed, for ever as the Noldor thought, she joined the rebellion against the Valar who commanded them to stay; and once she had set foot upon that road of exile she would not relent, but rejected the last message of the Valar, and came under the Doom of Mandos. Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Fëanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Fëanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could." - the Unfinished


Great citation but there's nothing in the many versions of the appendices, especially the "canonical" last revision by Tolkien to suggest that she literally fought. By that I mean, most likely she was there but she commanded the armies to shed her kin's blood. I doubt she did any slaying herself but since she was there, she still fell under the Doom of Mandos. 

The sad truth is that there are too many conflicting versions of Galadriel to paint a consistent picture of her. Regardless, I think that it's unfortunate that Amazon couldn't get the rights to the Silmarillion or better still the actual LOTR books. 

If people enjoy this show, great. I can't fault anyone for that. I think I'll stick to the books and Peter Jackson's adaptation (not The Hobbit movies though, they suck).


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## Righmath (Sep 4, 2022)

Reaver said:


> Great citation but there's nothing in the many versions of the appendices, especially the "canonical" last revision by Tolkien to suggest that she literally fought. By that I mean, most likely she was there but she commanded the armies to shed her kin's blood. I doubt she did any slaying herself but since she was there, she still fell under the Doom of Mandos.
> 
> The sad truth is that there are too many conflicting versions of Galadriel to paint a consistent picture of her. Regardless, I think that it's unfortunate that Amazon couldn't get the rights to the Silmarillion or better still the actual LOTR books.
> 
> If people enjoy this show, great. I can't fault anyone for that. I think I'll stick to the books and Peter Jackson's adaptation (not The Hobbit movies though, they suck).


Reaver, I shall agree with you on one thing. The Hobbit does indeed suck 

I wish they had a LOTR based game playable on PS4/5 or something. The last ones were for PS2/PC. Very sad.


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## Reaver (Sep 4, 2022)

Righmath said:


> Reaver, I shall agree with you on one thing. The Hobbit does indeed suck
> 
> I wish they had a LOTR based game playable on PS4/5 or something. The last ones were for PS2/PC. Very sad.


What about Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor and its sequel: Shadow of War? Both are on the PS4 for a great price.


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## Aldarion (Sep 4, 2022)

I might have enjoyed it as a standalone series, but seeing how it is _allegedly _based on Tolkien's work, I cannot see it as anything but a disgrace.


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## Righmath (Sep 4, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> I might have enjoyed it as a standalone series, but seeing how it is _allegedly _based on Tolkien's work, I cannot see it as anything but a disgrace.


Oh no, have you watched it?


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## Righmath (Sep 4, 2022)

Reaver said:


> What about Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor and its sequel: Shadow of War? Both are on the PS4 for a great price.


Unfortunately, Mordor never interested me. Which is why I'm worried 'Gollum' will not be something I look to purchase either...


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## pmmg (Sep 4, 2022)

I dont wish to steal the energy of those who choose to like this production. So, I'm gonna stay out of this thread.

But, I would like to comment, I think a large part of the success of the LOTR movies was the effort to be true to the source material, something that was not present in the Hobbit films. I think many of the people who grew up with these tales will not appreciate disrespecting or disregarding the original artistic vision. I've seen enough from the production of this to know they wish to go their own direction. IMO, it would be best if they just invented their own property to do so, but....why waste an opportunity to turn off a fan base. Good luck to them.


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## Aldarion (Sep 5, 2022)

Righmath said:


> Oh no, have you watched it?


First episode only. I wanted to binge-watch both released episodes, but after working my way through the first episode, I had no patience to go through another session of torture.


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## CupofJoe (Sep 5, 2022)

I haven't seen the show but I feel they missed a neat little nod to the Tolkien Fans... Release the first episodes on Thursday 22 September, Bilbo and Frodo's birthday and on the right day of the week for their big party in LotR. It wouldn't have made much difference to Amazon but may have made some of us more nerdy fans give a wry smile...


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## Aldarion (Sep 5, 2022)

CupofJoe said:


> I haven't seen the show but I feel they missed a neat little nod to the Tolkien Fans... Release the first episodes on Thursday 22 September, Bilbo and Frodo's birthday and on the right day of the week for their big party in LotR. It wouldn't have made much difference to Amazon but may have made some of us more nerdy fans give a wry smile...


They released it on anniversary of Tolkien's death (2nd of September). Quite appropriate, as showmakers hate Tolkien and want to destroy his work.


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## Lynea (Sep 5, 2022)

Lol, I'm sure they don't want to destroy his work, just have all the 'right' hashtags for today's audience.


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## Ankari (Sep 5, 2022)

I'm not familiar with the source material. At face value, the two episodes were entertaining. What, exactly, is the show diverging from the source material that is causing people to hate it? Is it just Galadriel's portrayal as a warrior?

The second episode is much better than the first. I felt much of the themes of the LotR movies in it. The dissonance between the elves and every other race. The theme of friendship and loyalty. Th impending doom. 

But I'm curious to understand what is throwing the fans of the source material off from the shows.


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## FifthView (Sep 6, 2022)

I, also, am not familiar with the source material.

I'm enjoying it so far.  Comparing it to House of the Dragon—the question arises everywhere—my enjoyment for The Rings of Power is not on the same level.  Maybe that's because it has had a slow start. In HotD, the intrigue, conflict, etc., was established very quickly, with more to be revealed. In TRoP, there's a lot of milieu building, cursory introductions to lots of characters, but not yet anything to inspire the same questions I already have while watching the other show.

I also wonder if the limited-magic vs awash-in-magic factors play a role in this muted appreciation, not only for myself but also for others. Take away the magic, and HotD must settle into nitty gritty affairs. The Rings of Power, on the other hand, still has a lot of its head in the clouds, with ominous forces perhaps circling but everything still rather abstract.


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## Aldarion (Sep 6, 2022)

Ankari said:


> I'm not familiar with the source material. At face value, the two episodes were entertaining. What, exactly, is the show diverging from the source material that is causing people to hate it? Is it just Galadriel's portrayal as a warrior?
> 
> The second episode is much better than the first. I felt much of the themes of the LotR movies in it. The dissonance between the elves and every other race. The theme of friendship and loyalty. Th impending doom.
> 
> But I'm curious to understand what is throwing the fans of the source material off from the shows.





FifthView said:


> I, also, am not familiar with the source material.
> 
> I'm enjoying it so far.  Comparing it to House of the Dragon—the question arises everywhere—my enjoyment for The Rings of Power is not on the same level.  Maybe that's because it has had a slow start. In HotD, the intrigue, conflict, etc., was established very quickly, with more to be revealed. In TRoP, there's a lot of milieu building, cursory introductions to lots of characters, but not yet anything to inspire the same questions I already have while watching the other show.
> 
> I also wonder if the limited-magic vs awash-in-magic factors play a role in this muted appreciation, not only for myself but also for others. Take away the magic, and HotD must settle into nitty gritty affairs. The Rings of Power, on the other hand, still has a lot of its head in the clouds, with ominous forces perhaps circling but everything still rather abstract.


I wrote a review of the first episode:








						Rings of Power Commentary – Episode 1
					

First obvious thing about the first episode of the show is that it is a clearly attempted ripoff of Jackson’s Lord of the Rings. Introductiory narration is fundamentally Galadriel’s nar…




					militaryfantasysf.wordpress.com
				




Should give you some clue, and keep in mind that I am _not _a Tolkien expert so I probably missed a lot of mistakes.

Long story short, however: showmakers couldn't care less about the source materials, and that is obvious from this abomination.

As I wrote in my commentary:


> Because at this point the episode feels more of a reference to every single show, movie and PC game out there, _except_ Lord of the Rings.


And that is the issue.


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## Prince of Spires (Sep 6, 2022)

Ankari said:


> I'm not familiar with the source material. At face value, the two episodes were entertaining. What, exactly, is the show diverging from the source material that is causing people to hate it? Is it just Galadriel's portrayal as a warrior?


I haven't seen the show, but from what I've gathered they have basically only kept the names of the characters and made up the rest. 

For instance: Galadriel never tried to sail to the undying lands and then jumped off a ship in the middle of the ocean. She wasn't a warrior. Gil-galad didn't hand out tickets to the undying lands. If I've got my timelines correct Galadriel is actually older and more powerful than Gil-galad, and would be equal to him. Gil-galad never trusted Sauron. Elrond by this time wasn't an upstart, but already respected for his wisdom and lineage. There have only ever been 3 unions between elf and men, and they are special, so a secret, random love thing between an elf and a human wouldn't happen. 

And that's just off the top of my head from reading internet replies and watching the trailers.


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## Jasnah- Ariel (Sep 6, 2022)

pmmg said:


> I dont wish to steal the energy of those who choose to like this production. So, I'm gonna stay out of this thread.
> 
> But, I would like to comment, I think a large part of the success of the LOTR movies was the effort to be true to the source material, something that was not present in the Hobbit films. I think many of the people who grew up with these tales will not appreciate disrespecting or disregarding the original artistic vision. I've seen enough from the production of this to know they wish to go their own direction. IMO, it would be best if they just invented their own property to do so, but....why waste an opportunity to turn off a fan base. Good luck to them.


I definitely agree, I felt like it lacked a lot of the magic of middle-earth that we felt in Lord of the rings, and even a little bit in the first Hobbit movie (don't get me started on the second two).

To be perfectly honest, I only lasted halfway through the first episode, I was intrigued by The Hobbit plot line, but utterly uninterested in the village one, and I couldn't handle Galadriel being shoehorned into the strong female character trope.


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## Righmath (Sep 7, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> First episode only. I wanted to binge-watch both released episodes, but after working my way through the first episode, I had no patience to go through another session of torture.


This is very dramatic! What did you not like about it?


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## Righmath (Sep 7, 2022)

CupofJoe said:


> I haven't seen the show but I feel they missed a neat little nod to the Tolkien Fans... Release the first episodes on Thursday 22 September, Bilbo and Frodo's birthday and on the right day of the week for their big party in LotR. It wouldn't have made much difference to Amazon but may have made some of us more nerdy fans give a wry smile...


Ok, this would of actually been really good


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## Righmath (Sep 7, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> They released it on anniversary of Tolkien's death (2nd of September). Quite appropriate, as showmakers hate Tolkien and want to destroy his work.


So what was your issue exactly with the episodes? I think if Tolkien was alive he wouldn't be this negative whatsoever about it


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## Righmath (Sep 7, 2022)

Prince of Spires said:


> I haven't seen the show, but from what I've gathered they have basically only kept the names of the characters and made up the rest.
> 
> For instance: Galadriel never tried to sail to the undying lands and then jumped off a ship in the middle of the ocean. She wasn't a warrior. Gil-galad didn't hand out tickets to the undying lands. If I've got my timelines correct Galadriel is actually older and more powerful than Gil-galad, and would be equal to him. Gil-galad never trusted Sauron. Elrond by this time wasn't an upstart, but already respected for his wisdom and lineage. There have only ever been 3 unions between elf and men, and they are special, so a secret, random love thing between an elf and a human wouldn't happen.
> 
> And that's just off the top of my head from reading internet replies and watching the trailers.


I am currently rereading the Sillmarlion and I shall respond in due course...


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## Righmath (Sep 7, 2022)

Jasnah- Ariel said:


> I couldn't handle Galadriel being shoehorned into the strong female character trope.


Weird comment with some very strong undertones! Galadriel in the Fellowship was described as "the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth". So I'm not sure why you wouldn't assume from this that she wasn't a warrior?

Also another quote;

“Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power [of Galadriel] that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back”.

I suppose in your mind, because she was a feeble woman, she just sat in the throne room? Not to mention that she was also described as Sauron's greatest foe?

So if I'm honest, either you haven't read the books, or you have written off the series as 'woke'. Either way, it seems like you're on the wrong side of the fandom, and Tolkien himself


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## Aldarion (Sep 7, 2022)

Righmath said:


> So what was your issue exactly with the episodes? I think if Tolkien was alive he wouldn't be this negative whatsoever about it





Righmath said:


> This is very dramatic! What did you not like about it?


Like, everything? They are basically relieving themselves straight onto Tolkien's work. And yes, Tolkien _would be _this negative, or if anything, even more so. He hated it when people wanted to change anything about his work or implied they knew his work better than he did.

Anyway, first episode only:








						Rings of Power Commentary – Episode 1
					

First obvious thing about the first episode of the show is that it is a clearly attempted ripoff of Jackson’s Lord of the Rings. Introductiory narration is fundamentally Galadriel’s nar…




					militaryfantasysf.wordpress.com


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## Righmath (Sep 7, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> Like, everything? They are basically relieving themselves straight onto Tolkien's work. And yes, Tolkien _would be _this negative, or if anything, even more so. He hated it when people wanted to change anything about his work or implied they knew his work better than he did.
> 
> Anyway, first episode only:
> 
> ...


Well then by your analysis Tolkien would have hated LOTR by Peter Jackson? Which plenty of people would also disagree with you?


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## Righmath (Sep 7, 2022)

Ankari said:


> I'm not familiar with the source material. At face value, the two episodes were entertaining. What, exactly, is the show diverging from the source material that is causing people to hate it? Is it just Galadriel's portrayal as a warrior?


I agree! I honestly believe that people are perhaps stretching of what *they* would have liked to have seen, and are for some reason tying that to what Tolkien would have believed?

I think it was a great representation of his work which he and his family would have enjoyed. From what I gather, people seem to not like ROP because they are just dismissing it as 'woke', because... it's not full of white people?  

On a side note, twitter is very fun to watch right now!


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## Ankari (Sep 7, 2022)

Righmath said:


> Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power [of Galadriel] that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back”.
> 
> I suppose in your mind, because she was a feeble woman, she just sat in the throne room? Not to mention that she was also described as Sauron's greatest foe?



To be fair, this can mean she held magical powers equal to Sauron's. Might doesn't have to mean physical abilities. In fact, most of what I understand from the LotR, magical powers are often greater and more awesome. Look at Gandalf. He doesn't fight like Aragorn.

If I understand this properly, the Tolkien fans wanted Galadriel represented in this purer form of her power. A magical presence like Gandalf.


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## FifthView (Sep 8, 2022)

Ankari said:


> Look at Gandalf. He doesn't fight like Aragorn.



Well in the movie, he shocked a lot of people by wielding a staff better than your average 20 year old could ever hope to wield it.


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## FifthView (Sep 8, 2022)

As I've said already in this thread, I don't know the background.

This idea that I should go back and study all the texts so I can develop a _correct_, strongly negative opinion of the show is odd to me. I mean, I hardly put that kind of work in for anything. Launching into research with the goal of coming to hate the show just doesn't appeal to me, heh.

I can understand why some do hate the show. I've had exactly the same kind of reaction many times when I knew the source material for a show or movie. But that's not me with this show.

Oddly, after watching the first two episodes, I'm still curious to see the third episode, but I'm not wildly excited by the prospect. I'm much more into House of the Dragon.


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## Prince of Spires (Sep 8, 2022)

Righmath said:


> I think if Tolkien was alive he wouldn't be this negative whatsoever about it


He definitely would have been. He already hated editors changing Dwarves to Dwarfs. In several of his letters he comments on how he views changes being made to his work. He wrote extensively on a movie adaptation which was being worked on during his life, and he absolutely hated any changes they made which were being made to his work. 

As for the actual LoTR movies, we don't know Tolkien's opinion on them, but we do know his son's opinion on them, and he disliked them. He thought they weren't true to his father's tale and vision, and had too much focus on action for instance.

I'm sure the Tolkien estate is now very much enjoying the Rings of Power. I know I would if I was given $200 million for doing basically nothing. Even more so since they only have 20 or so years left to benefit from their IP.



Righmath said:


> Weird comment with some very strong undertones! Galadriel in the Fellowship was described as "the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth". So I'm not sure why you wouldn't assume from this that she wasn't a warrior?


might and strength at arms are two very different things. Galadriel at the time of The lord of the rings was one of the oldest elves in the world, and one of the few to have been to the undying lands and have seen the light of the trees. She is definitely one of the most powerful beings to walk the earth (and would have been more powerful than Gil-Galad. But her power wasn't in strength of arms, but rather in her magic and her wisdom. I don't think there's a single mention of her fighting an actual fight with a sword in her hand. 


Righmath said:


> I am currently rereading the Sillmarlion and I shall respond in due course...


If you want to dive deeper, then after that you could also read _The History of Middle Earth_ series, with all the stories and notes from Tolkien which didn't make it into the Silmarillion.

I personally feel that this show should be judged not on the name Tolkien which they put on, but rather as its own thing. It's not Middle Earth, but it doesn't have to be. As long as the story is good it can still be a good show.


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## Aldarion (Sep 8, 2022)

Righmath said:


> Well then by your analysis Tolkien would have hated LOTR by Peter Jackson?


Definitely.


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## Jasnah- Ariel (Sep 8, 2022)

Righmath said:


> So if I'm honest, either you haven't read the books, or you have written off the series as 'woke'. Either way, it seems like you're on the wrong side of the fandom, and Tolkien himself


Oh wow, you've got some of your own undertones  

I've read the books and the Silmarillion many times. 

I have no issue seeing her as a warrior. She's a total badass. I have an issue seeing the writers use weary cliches to let us know that she's a badass. A simple Google search of how problematic the strong female character trope is could probably say it more eloquently than I could. 

If you enjoyed it, good for you, I have no judgments. I'm pretty picky, and I didn't feel like it met what I look for. Aren't forms like this for sharing those opinions instead of trying to insult others for what they like?


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## Reaver (Sep 10, 2022)

Jasnah- Ariel said:


> Aren't forms like this for sharing those opinions instead of trying to insult others for what they like?


This site definitely is a place to express one’s opinion freely and I’ll remind everyone who comments on this thread to keep their replies respectful and to refrain from insulting other members. 
Consider this my one and only warning to anyone who can’t abide by this.


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## skip.knox (Sep 11, 2022)

Plenty of people hated Donatello's version of the Magdalene, too. Or ... well, a near-infinite number of reworkings of familiar figures, stories, etc. 

Rather than try to project into what a dead man thinks, why not try to watch each work exactly as it is meant: as its own work? Does it tell a good story? Does it tell the story well? Do the characters engage me? Why not treat this particular work as an especially ambitious bit of fan fiction?

Going beyond that is rarely productive. It gets the heart pumping but it rarely changes minds. We might get occasional insights (I didn't know there was a movie project during Tolkien's lifetime), but it's rarely worth enduring the shouting. Tolkien probably didn't like the Hildebrandt brothers' paintings either, but plenty of people loved them.


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## Aldarion (Sep 11, 2022)

skip.knox said:


> Plenty of people hated Donatello's version of the Magdalene, too. Or ... well, a near-infinite number of reworkings of familiar figures, stories, etc.
> 
> Rather than try to project into what a dead man thinks, why not try to watch each work exactly as it is meant: as its own work? Does it tell a good story? Does it tell the story well? Do the characters engage me? Why not treat this particular work as an especially ambitious bit of fan fiction?
> 
> Going beyond that is rarely productive. It gets the heart pumping but it rarely changes minds. We might get occasional insights (I didn't know there was a movie project during Tolkien's lifetime), but it's rarely worth enduring the shouting. Tolkien probably didn't like the Hildebrandt brothers' paintings either, but plenty of people loved them.


Because it is based on Tolkien's work, and is labeled as an adaptation. Therefore, _Rings of Power _*cannot *be considered as a standalone work. How faithful they are to letter and spirit of Tolkien's work must enter the equation, IMO.


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## Reaver (Sep 11, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> Because it is based on Tolkien's work, and is labeled as an adaptation. Therefore, _Rings of Power _*cannot *be considered as a standalone work. How faithful they are to letter and spirit of Tolkien's work must enter the equation, IMO.


I agree with you wholeheartedly however I'm also inclined to treat it as my esteemed associate skip suggests: an ambitious bit of fan fiction. Plenty of people who don't know or even care to know anything (i.e. the writers and show runners)  about the source material yet they write fan fiction all the time. The internet is overflowing with horrible fan fiction and in my not so humble opinion, TRoP is the most expensive example of shitty fanfic in history.


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## Aldarion (Sep 12, 2022)

Reaver said:


> I agree with you wholeheartedly however I'm also inclined to treat it as my esteemed associate skip suggests: an ambitious bit of fan fiction. Plenty of people who don't know or even care to know anything (i.e. the writers and show runners)  about the source material yet they write fan fiction all the time. The internet is overflowing with horrible fan fiction and in my not so humble opinion, TRoP is the most expensive example of shitty fanfic in history.


Problem is that, in my opinion, there is a fundamental difference here. Fan fiction is not made for profit (or at least it should not be), everybody knows it is a _mutation of the original work_, and nobody expects accuracy from it.

Rings of Power, however, are a _for-profit, lincensed work_ using Tolkien's IP. This automatically holds them to a much higher standard, despite being a type of derivative work (adaptation, lincensed work and fanfiction are all categories of derivative works). And in my opinion, even fanfiction should try and abide with the fundamentals of the work*: it is a question of simple respect towards the author. I _love_ reading fanfiction, but if fanfiction a) changes the world too much _without _being an outright AU (be it modern-world AU or a crossover) or b) changes the _characters_ too much (e.g. making someone like Aragorn, Ser Barristan, Luffy or Todoroki into a psychopathic murderer), I still drop it as soon as I realize what is going on, because at that point it is less of a fanfiction and more of an original work.

And yes, I am aware that Rings of Power are really a fanfiction. But as I have said: even fanfiction should be held to certain standards. And Rings of Power are a fanfiction that somebody is profiting off, which is simply disrespectful towards Tolkien. Making money from fanfiction is normally illegal - and for a _very good reason_ - but apparently if you are a big-name studio, it is completely fine.

* This is why I haven't written any fanfiction yet. I am planning to - and in fact have _several_ ideas - but I want to ensure not to contradict any of the fundamental ideas of the universe it will be set in, which requires research.


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## skip.knox (Sep 12, 2022)

>This automatically holds them to a much higher standard
It may hold them to a higher standard, but it doesn't necessarily hold them to *my* standard. I don't feel qualified to judge whether this show holds to letter and spirit, except to judge whether I thought they've told a good story or not. I went into Peter Jackson's work the same way. I was hoping for good; for me, I got better than good, so I was very happy. There were others who felt that trilogy failed. That's fine. Everyone gets to have their own standards.


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## Aldarion (Sep 12, 2022)

skip.knox said:


> >This automatically holds them to a much higher standard
> It may hold them to a higher standard, but it doesn't necessarily hold them to *my* standard. I don't feel qualified to judge whether this show holds to letter and spirit, except to judge whether I thought they've told a good story or not. I went into Peter Jackson's work the same way. I was hoping for good; for me, I got better than good, so I was very happy. There were others who felt that trilogy failed. That's fine. Everyone gets to have their own standards.


Well, they fail at that as well. Getting through first episode alone was a chore.

But I still stand by belief that adaptation must at the very least show respect to the original author. And that means keeping to his/her beliefs and intentions when creating the world.


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## Nighty_Knight (Sep 22, 2022)

Prince of Spires said:


> He definitely would have been. He already hated editors changing Dwarves to Dwarfs. In several of his letters he comments on how he views changes being made to his work. He wrote extensively on a movie adaptation which was being worked on during his life, and he absolutely hated any changes they made which were being made to his work.
> 
> As for the actual LoTR movies, we don't know Tolkien's opinion on them, but we do know his son's opinion on them, and he disliked them. He thought they weren't true to his father's tale and vision, and had too much focus on action for instance.
> 
> ...


I don’t even think the problem is that she is fighting with a sword. It’s that she seems to have completely forgotten that she was a powerful magic wielder altogether when it comes to arms. Also she seems to have completely forgotten her husband whom she made a lot of decisions and major second age choices with. And she forgot about her child. And she forgotten she was thousands of years old, could see through the souls of people, was considered one of the most graceful of all beings and for some reason is acting like hothead who can’t control herself.


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## Wamsutta (Sep 22, 2022)

Nighty_Knight said:


> And she forgotten she was thousands of years old, could see through the souls of people, was considered one of the most graceful of all beings and for some reason is acting like hothead who can’t control herself.


I also think that beyond any accuracy to her character according to Tolkien's materials, Galadriel in TRoP is not a very likeable character. She is overdramatic, doesn't listen to people, and always need to have the last word. That's not strength, but insecurity. In fact, I think her best moment was when she was genuinely happy riding the horse. If it wasn't for her supporting characters, she would be completely uninteresting. I find some of the other storylines to be far more interesting, such as the dwarves and Elrond.

I do have conflicting emotions watching this series. I find it mildly entertaining, but if I look too hard, I'll be annoyed by the obvious effort to create Peter Jackson's LotR vibes. It could be better, but it has some creative merit. I know I can only enjoy it because I don't know Tolkien's source materials well, but I do feel somewhat bad about that. If someone did this to my work, I would hate it, but only if I'm alive. When I have shuffled off this mortal coil, would I really be concerned about such things? I cannot control it. I hope my work stands, but does it matter if others derive from it? I've heard it said that Tolkien is rolling over in his grave. Is he, or does he have better things to do in his undying lands?


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## Demesnedenoir (Sep 25, 2022)

Rings of Power is gorgeous, and I find entertainment in seeing how the writers tried to work with and around canon when the Tolkien Estate won't hand over a lick of anything that would allow production to STAY in canon. So, on the one hand, breaking from canon is annoying, but on the other, there is no way to satisfy purists. I'll give a pass on much, such as Galadriel's fighting, because does it anywhere say she didn't fight? Nope. If you live long enough in a time of war, what frigging elf shouldn't know how to fight? I'm not a purist on any movie adaptation... and this notion that Jackson stayed "true as he could" is rubbish. They went too Pirates of the Caribbean before completely destroying the Hobbit.

House of the Dragon comment: episode one was so frigging cliche I stopped watching the series. Not that I won't get around to it eventually, but I spent too much time groaning through episode one to get excited about watching more. My review of episode one went like this: Shockingly weak and weak in its shocking. It felt too much like seasons 7 & 8 of GoT to me, and that disturbs me.


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## Demesnedenoir (Sep 25, 2022)

If I were a dwarf, I'd be offended by their continuance as comic relief. Dwarves just get so little respect, heh heh.


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## Nighty_Knight (Sep 25, 2022)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Rings of Power is gorgeous, and I find entertainment in seeing how the writers tried to work with and around canon when the Tolkien Estate won't hand over a lick of anything that would allow production to STAY in canon. So, on the one hand, breaking from canon is annoying, but on the other, there is no way to satisfy purists. I'll give a pass on much, such as Galadriel's fighting, because does it anywhere say she didn't fight? Nope. If you live long enough in a time of war, what frigging elf shouldn't know how to fight? I'm not a purist on any movie adaptation... and this notion that Jackson stayed "true as he could" is rubbish. They went too Pirates of the Caribbean before completely destroying the Hobbit.
> 
> House of the Dragon comment: episode one was so frigging cliche I stopped watching the series. Not that I won't get around to it eventually, but I spent too much time groaning through episode one to get excited about watching more. My review of episode one went like this: Shockingly weak and weak in its shocking. It felt too much like seasons 7 & 8 of GoT to me, and that disturbs me.


I have genuinely been liking House of the Dragon. The writing is leaps better than ROP. It’s not season 1-4 GOT good but it’s better than seasons 5-8 IMO.


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## Demesnedenoir (Sep 25, 2022)

Nighty_Knight said:


> I have genuinely been liking House of the Dragon. The writing is leaps better than ROP. It’s not season 1-4 GOT good but it’s better than seasons 5-8 IMO.


GoT writing was okay when they kept the porn writers out of the room, heh heh. And their source material was GRRM in his prime, and I'm not so sure he's that anymore. But seriously, episode one was hack. Lame. Same old same old.


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## Finchbearer (Oct 28, 2022)

I know I’m adding to an old thread again but I was waiting for someone to mention The Rings of Power, and here we are.

I loved it. Told from the perspective of Galadriel, erm yes please! Girl power and all that… The Hobbits/Harfoots as migrating folk, yes yes yes. And I think it was episode 6, that battle was bloody brilliant, medieval and brutal. I couldn’t care less about the purity or accuracy to Tolkien’s original vision - it’s all conjecture when the man has been laid to rest for so long!

Also as a graphic designer - the typography used for the title is just


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## Demesnedenoir (Oct 28, 2022)

I'm finding the series entertaining while still understanding the purist problems with the story... however, when the Tolkien estate won't allow access to the Silmarilion or other works, it'd be damned near impossible to stick to canon. So, I judge purely by the Gladiator question... Are you entertained? I am.


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## Demesnedenoir (Oct 28, 2022)

Also, for Epic Fantasy entering the pop culture, this might be the greatest 12 months ever between RoP, HoD, and WoT, even if you don't appreciate the interpretations to film.


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## Righmath (Oct 28, 2022)

I loved it too overall and will 100% watch it again. HOWEVER; I do think they could've done more... I would've liked to see some more epic battles? Was that too much to ask?

Other than that it was very entertaining! Just with my point above, I think I read somewhere that bc it was filmed during covid there was a shortage of people they could use on set? So perhaps this is why!

HOTD I like also, first few eps had a bit too much incest and marrying of 8 year olds, but all in all it's enjoyable.


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## skip.knox (Oct 31, 2022)

I enjoyed RoP, though Galadriel is oddly uninspiring to me. Tolkien's elves are very flat; most are more roles in a saga than rounded characters. I happen to think that's realistic; you cannot have beings who live for thousands of years have the same motivations and faults as do beings who live for less than a century. But it does present problems for anyone who tries to expand on Tolkien using modern storytelling. I like the dwarves and harfoots better. And the humans.


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