# While watching Dr. Who, Seasons 5 & 6...



## Steerpike (Mar 8, 2013)

did anyone else hope that Rory would just die and stay dead?

There were two main issues for me:

1) his character is the husband of Amy Pond, and the idea that Karen Gillan would express an interest, even fictional, in anyone other than myself stretched my suspension of disbelief well past the breaking point; and 

2) they wrote him as kind of a whiny, useless character.

Thoughts?


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## Devor (Mar 8, 2013)

Maybe for a little bit, but he grew on me a lot.  I thought it was better, overall, that the doctor broke away from the one-companion-at-a-time thing he had going with Rose, Martha and Donna.  And I thought the Amy-Rory relationship was more interesting than other possibilities because you didn't really know what would happen (whereas, you knew the Doctor was never going to go for Rose or Martha).  You get to see them for years of their life together, and I thought that was pretty cool.

But yeah, Rory can feel a bit awkward in some of the episodes.  He could maybe have stayed home a few times.


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## Chime85 (Mar 9, 2013)

I must admit, there were times when his death began to loose its impact. By the end of series five, I began to think "who cares? He'll be back in 10 minutes. As they say, out to lunch"

Your point 1) made me laugh though. Thank you for that, just what I needed when drinking my tea! 

As for point 2) Yeah, he was a little whiny. However, Id complain to high heaven if I had a wife who ran away on our wedding night (helps if I propose first haha!). To be honest, it seems like they stuck him in there for comic relief. Unfortunately he could never prove himself when it came to any sort of episode climax, because he snuffed it every time at around the 25-30 minute mark.


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## Steerpike (Mar 9, 2013)

Glad to make you smile, Chime85. Sorry about the tea.

He hasn't grown on me yet. Just something about the character, I suppose. I'm still enjoying the episodes, and I'm open to having my mind changed


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## Zero Angel (Mar 9, 2013)

I thought it was a bit absurd until he is developed more and you realize that he has always been there for Amy (even, or maybe especially, when the Doctor wasn't) and that he definitely has a tendency to put her before him in everything and do everything he can for her. 

No offense to Amy, but I think she needed someone that pretty much worshipped her whereas with the Doctor, he was too cool for her. 

Anyway, did you watch the uncut version of the end of Series 5 or the cut version? There's about 5-10 minutes difference and one of the things they cut was the description of the first time I thought Rory was badass. 

Can't wait until March 30 though!


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## DSCroxford (Mar 19, 2013)

OP, you gave me the first smile of the day and that is a great way to get in to some writing. I too feel your disbelief and certainly started fan ficting in my head a few scenarios that follow Rory's ultimate path of continuous death/revival where I was the comforting shoulder Amy would then turn to.

I did find Rory's character to be weak, considering the 'Centurion' plot line that he was given and we find out he has been protecting her all those years. Though could I be mistaking weakness simply for an undying love for Amy. I must say I give him props as I do not know whether I could show that sort of unwavering devotion to the point where he is almost a doormat. 

I will miss Amy and Rory and was disappointed in the way they left the series, it was rather anticlimactic for myself and a number of friends when we watched and then discussed it.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 19, 2013)

I feel like Rory's character was only written in so that there was no chance of another Doctor/female companion romance occurring - by having Rory as Amy's husband, she was 'off limits'. After the last few, I can understand the decision to push out any chance of a romantic undertone. It's been a mixed bag, and the Doctor's character just isn't the best suited for it. Plus they'd just risk rehashing either a Rose or Martha-esque subplot. But his character... doesn't do much, overall. He barely even qualifies as comic relief. I know a lot of my girl friends like him for the eye candy - let's be honest Matt Smith is no David Tennant - but he's not my type, so I couldn't even appreciate him for that.


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## Zero Angel (Mar 19, 2013)

DSCroxford said:


> OP, you gave me the first smile of the day and that is a great way to get in to some writing. I too feel your disbelief and certainly started fan ficting in my head a few scenarios that follow Rory's ultimate path of continuous death/revival where I was the comforting shoulder Amy would then turn to.
> 
> I did find Rory's character to be weak, considering the 'Centurion' plot line that he was given and we find out he has been protecting her all those years. Though could I be mistaking weakness simply for an undying love for Amy. I must say I give him props as I do not know whether I could show that sort of unwavering devotion to the point where he is almost a doormat.
> 
> I will miss Amy and Rory and was disappointed in the way they left the series, it was rather anticlimactic for myself and a number of friends when we watched and then discussed it.



Yeah, I think you're confusing weakness with unconditional love 



Spoiler: End of Rory & Amy



Can you say ridiculous? And how about the whole idea that if the angels are successful they'll keep spreading and populating only for them to be successful! What happened to the city of New York after that point? I think the angels have jumped the shark with that episode. The entire half season (with the exception of "Asylum of the Daleks") felt rushed to get rid of the duo. We knew at the beginning it was going to be their end and it felt like we were watching a couple of adventures as they fast forwarded to the end.





Ophiucha said:


> I feel like Rory's character was only written in so that
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't be stringent with those spoiler tags. At the beginning it was pretty clear that there were feelings between the Doctor and Amy. 


Spoiler: My opinion on Amy, Rory and the Doctor post Season 7 Part 1 and Christmas special



I think they did rehash Martha's story, but this time it was with the Doctor. There are several points in time, even in Season 7, where it's pretty clear that the Doctor has feelings for Amy, and Rory definitely knows it too. I felt that the episode one line of (I'm paraphrasing here) "I love you more because I gave you up" from Amy to Rory is pretty much total BS and what she appears to love about Rory is his complete faithfulness and unconditional love. The Doctor however could easily say this to Amy. What is amazing to me is the Doctor accepting them as a couple and accepting Rory to take the place with Amy that he could never. 

Even when River Song started appearing in the story line with Amy, once she knew the Doctor didn't know who she was yet, she accepted as fact that the Doctor loved and cared about Amy more than he did about River Song. Some of this could be written off as the Doctor trusting his companion over the girl that he believes he eventually marries because she knows his real name, but that seems a bit stretched. I'm pretty sure River realizes or at least believes that the Doctor loves Amy.

This is even more supported by the Snowmen Christmas special where the Doctor gives up on EVERYTHING after losing Amy and Rory. They didn't even have a tragic death, they just lived happily ever after away from him in a different time. Did they every explain why he couldn't visit them after that??? ANYWAY, so yes, I think that the Doctor loves Amy and the marriage really doesn't matter either since that occurred after the Doctor started traveling with Amy.


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## Steerpike (Mar 19, 2013)

I do like Matt Smith better than Tennant as The Doctor, however. Maybe because I started with Season 5 after a couple of failed attempts to get into Season 1.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 19, 2013)

I think most people like their first Doctor the best. At least, everyone I know does - my best friend's first was Smith, mine was Tennant, her fiance's was Eccleston, and those are the ones we each find the best. My parents both like older Doctors, too.


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## Steerpike (Mar 19, 2013)

Ophiucha said:


> I think most people like their first Doctor the best. At least, everyone I know does - my best friend's first was Smith, mine was Tennant, her fiance's was Eccleston, and those are the ones we each find the best. My parents both like older Doctors, too.



Have you seen the original series? I have debated watching some of it, and I'm curious how it holds up over the years.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 19, 2013)

I've seen most of the episodes with the Sixth and Seventh Doctor, but not much of the others. I guess it depends on what you like about Doctor Who. The lore is the same, but the two shows are very different in terms of presentation. It's a lot more serial than the new Doctor Who, and the Doctors are less... _cool_, if you will. They are usually older and a few of them are more refined than the new Doctors. Steven Moffat isn't writing for it- whether or not you see that as a positive or a negative will vary wildly from person to person. And it's definitely a lot cheesier, at least when it comes to the effects. Most of the time it is charming, but there are a few episodes that are laughably bad.


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## Chime85 (Mar 19, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Have you seen the original series? I have debated watching some of it, and I'm curious how it holds up over the years.



I've watched a few stories from the first series. By all means, they seem a little outdated now, but they're still fun to watch. If you're expecting any kind of romance with the Doctor and his companions, you're in for a disappointment.

Personally, my favorite was the fourth doctor, Tom Baker


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## DSCroxford (Mar 19, 2013)

My father was an avid SF and fantasy fan. He could turn out some fabulous artwork and I remember every weekend we would get up in the morning and on UK gold was a Dr Who omnibus. Good days that will remain in my mind forever.

I loved the originals, the Bakers were my favorite regeneration's, it brought back a lot of fun childhood memories when they decided to reboot and yes although they are miles apart in time and tech I still find the originals well worth a watch. I believe a lot of the early years are making their way onto Netflix.


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## Zero Angel (Mar 20, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> I do like Matt Smith better than Tennant as The Doctor, however. Maybe because I started with Season 5 after a couple of failed attempts to get into Season 1.


Series 1 was a little rough, although it was nice to see how he developed recovering from the Time War over the course of the year. It really took off with Series 2 once Tennant took over. 



Steerpike said:


> Have you seen the original series? I have debated watching some of it, and I'm curious how it holds up over the years.


This year the BBC is playing a classic Who episode every month. January was the First Doctor with an episode just about the Aztecs (something classic Who used to do quite a lot; that is, only the Doctor, the TARDIS and his companions being the sci-fi elements of the episode) and February was the Second Doctor with the intro of the cybermen in Tomb of the Cybermen. Watching the interviews before the episode, it was mentioned that Matt Smith based a lot of his Doctor off of 2. 

Also read that Neil Gaiman will be writing the series finale of series 7 and he was tasked with "making the cybermen scary again". 

Speaking to favorites, the Fourth Doctor was the most popular until the new series when the Tenth Doctor supplanted him, and then the Tenth Doctor was the most popular until the Eleventh Doctor supplanted _him!_ I started in the middle of 9/10, unaware of the show's existence and only catching an episode here and there on Syfy. Eventually I figured out the chronology. The Tenth was my and my fiancee's favorite, and we both dreaded Matt Smith's intro when we found out, but it's even more amazing now than ever. 

Chris Hardwick was talking on a Doctor Who special episode about the regenerations and how Doctor Who is so amazing and special and how Matt Smith came in to take the show over from the most popular Doctor of all-time and just made it his own and did amazingly. 

There's no show like Doctor Who!


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## Eurthantian (Mar 25, 2013)

I think Rory is awesome.  Must admit it took them a loooong time to develop his character beyond "that guy Amy is marrying ...why exactly?"

I had the opposite complaint: the writers seemed to be putting Rory in mortal peril for lack of any good ideas.  They're doing that with the Doctor too; someone needs to tell Moffat et al, they've used up all the "Doctor is Dead Forever, Wait He Got Better" stores for at least the next TEN YEARS.


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## Zero Angel (Mar 26, 2013)

Eurthantian said:


> I think Rory is awesome.  Must admit it took them a loooong time to develop his character beyond "that guy Amy is marrying ...why exactly?"
> 
> I had the opposite complaint: the writers seemed to be putting Rory in mortal peril for lack of any good ideas.  They're doing that with the Doctor too; someone needs to tell Moffat et al, they've used up all the "Doctor is Dead Forever, Wait He Got Better" stores for at least the next TEN YEARS.



Well, actually, there's going to be a race for a new regeneration cycle if he wants to stay alive much longer. They only get 12 regenerations (actually, I'm not sure if it's 12 regenerations or 12 incarnations). Matt Smith has said he cannot see him being the doctor in 2015, and there are rumors it may be as early as the end of this year. Moffat has also expressed a statement along the lines of "closer to the end of his time with Doctor Who than the beginning".

(It's already been built into the lore that they can get new regenerations since the Master's gone through two entire cycles and then was brought back yet again to fight the daleks in the time war, so that's what, 3 cycles at least?). But anyway, depending on how they count regenerations, either the next Doctor or the one after will be out of regenerations entirely. Will they have the Doctor pass the show down to a new generation or will they give him another cycle?


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## Anders Ã„mting (Mar 28, 2013)

My only complaint of Rory is that his time as the Lone Centurion didn't make him more badass. I wanted to see him put all those centuries to use by going all Highlander at some point.



Zero Angel said:


> (It's already been built into the lore that they can get new regenerations since the Master's gone through two entire cycles and then was brought back yet again to fight the daleks in the time war, so that's what, 3 cycles at least?). But anyway, depending on how they count regenerations, either the next Doctor or the one after will be out of regenerations entirely. Will they have the Doctor pass the show down to a new generation or will they give him another cycle?



I recall reading somewhere that all Time Lords who fought in the Time War were given a fresh regeneration cycle. So, it's actually possible the Doctor still has several more to go.


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## Devor (Mar 28, 2013)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> I recall reading somewhere that all Time Lords who fought in the Time War were given a fresh regeneration cycle. So, it's actually possible the Doctor still has several more to go.



I don't remember that, but I don't think they'll go that route.  This is going to be a big deal moment in the series, so I think they'll try to make it epic.  My guess is they'll bring the Master back and River Song will orchestrate some way for the doctor to get another cycle - but she might do it by creating some loophole in what happened during that point of the Time War.


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## Lunaairis (Mar 28, 2013)

I liked Matt smith as a doctor, I liked him a lot. The breaking point for me is that the filming, and writing of his seasons I thought were really poor. Most episodes were way too fast and I found myself watching them and getting bored because too much was happening and not enough answers were being given, or too many poor answers were being given. I also found they began starting most episodes with a shaking camera that was whipping back and forth which I really hate cause they are trying to build up tension but when you start 3-4 episodes in a row like that its boring. 
 My favorite doctor would have to be the first doctor and Tom baker even though I started with the 9th doctor. I also liked when doctor who was more historical then using aliens, and I really don't like how they keep reusing the same aliens in the newer seasons, when there are like an infinite number of possible aliens to have in it.


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## Chilari (Apr 2, 2013)

I thought Rory did become more awesome in later episodes. He got some great crowning moments of awesome, particularly in A Good Man Goes to War or whatever that episode was called. Still, he never quite became Amy's equal; he was always presented as being in some manner inferior to her. She was always in charge, giving orders. The Doctor even refered to him as Rory Pond, rather than Rory Williams - and legally speaking, Amy took Rory's surname, not the other way round, as per British tradition upon marriage (which I was surprised at, I expected her to keep her surname as is becoming more popular these days), though she did call her daughter Melody Pond, not Melody Williams, which is perhaps telling 9or was that sort of accidental? Hard to keep track.) Still, it never seemed like an equal relationship. Amy made the decisions, Rory, even when he was being badass, followed along behind.

As for regenerations, in one episode of the Sarah Jane Adventures, which as far as I know was broadcast on CBBC rather than proper BBC, and probably not broadcast abroad at all, the character Clyde at one point asks the Doctor how many regenerations he gets, and he gives a figure in the 500s or something. Not the standard 12. I think some have speculated therefore that the 12 regenerations limit was imposed by the Timelord government or whatever it was, rather than an absolute one. It seems, furthermore, to be tied to the TARDIS; he needs to be in the TARDIS or near it when he regenerates, and the TARDIS has undergone some odd changes of its own so the 12 regnerations might not still apply anyway. Mind you, does Tennant's regeneration when he got shot by a Dalek at the end of Martha's run count, because he did regenerate he just stayed the same.

Basically, I think the BBC have enough loopholes in place to get around giving up on the series once the guy after the next one decides he's had enough. It's a big show, and an important one to the BBC's income generating capabilities because it gets broadcast wordwide. I think we've got a ways to go yet.


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## Steerpike (Apr 2, 2013)

Oddly enough, although Steven Moffat seems to be a driving force behind it (and while I like Sherlock a great deal), I've found that most of the episodes where I've had trouble with aspects of the writing were written by him. Anyone else?


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## Eurthantian (Apr 4, 2013)

Must not look...did not see last Saturday's ep yet... 
*peeks*
That's alright, then.



Anders Ã„mting said:


> My only complaint of Rory is that his time as the Lone Centurion didn't make him more badass. I wanted to see him put all those centuries to use by going all Highlander at some point.



I have a more subtle complaint about the metaphysics of the Rory/Centurion situation:  Technically Centurion Rory is not Rory at all, that is he doesn't  have the life and soul of Rory, though he has his memories and personality.  Centurion Rory is *Rory Mark II*, and while his actions make sense, he's actually a Nestien (spelling?) consciousness who _thinks_ he's Rory.

So when the world all goes back and the Doctor returns, its *Rory Mark I* again, and he _shouldn't_ have any memory of his Centurion Days.  For more about this sorta thing, I refer reader to the Swamp Thing/Alex dynamic, as well as how Holograms are handled in "Red Dwarf".

Forgive me.  I re-watched literally every Who episode from the beginning as of about a year ago.  While the writing before the reboot took some liberties with continuity, over all there was an attempt to  explain new events in terms of the established story.  This is called craftsmanship.   These days the lack of thought smacks more and more of sloppiness.

Also, I have obviously thought about this sort of thing WAY too much during my own world building.   



> I recall reading somewhere that all Time Lords who fought in the Time War were given a fresh regeneration cycle. So, it's actually possible the Doctor still has several more to go.



Oh yeah, the retconing/hand-waving to save the franchise is going to be very interesting.   Assuming Moffat leaves us a franchise to save...


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## CreatorOfBotis (Apr 6, 2013)

Rory grew on me - I couldn't stand him for the longest time, and I was almost disappointed that he was going to be sticking around for series 6, but he definitely grew on me throughout last year. And, after all,



Spoiler: ok if you've seen "A good man goes to war"



there has to be _some_ kind of excuse for River to exist. Without having _both_ Amy and Rory traveling with the Doctor, we wouldn't have such an interesting character meeting up with us in random points in time.


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## Steerpike (Apr 6, 2013)

Well, whether anyone likes Rory or not, my first point remains valid.


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## Nobby (May 11, 2013)

Yes, but without Rory, there would be no Rory's Dad.

Grandad cool...with a trowel.

A folding trowel...


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