# DBA worth it for a Self Pubber?



## BWFoster78 (Feb 6, 2013)

I read a tip once that a self publisher should be as professional as possible (a position with which I agree).  The suggester went on to advise the self pubber go as far as creating a publishing company so that it's not as obvious that you're self publishing.

I thought this was a fantastic idea.  I envisioned myself as CEO, CFO, COO, and chairman of the board of Brian W. Foster Enterprises.  Cool deal.

Then I looked into what is required to set up such a thing.

My understanding is that, if I want to say that I'm operating as "Insert Name Here Publishing Company" in the state of CA, I have to file a "Doing Business As" Fictitious Business Name form in the county of my residence.  For Riverside County, that means:

$58 filing fee
Publish my fictitious business name statement in a local newspaper for four consecutive weeks (not sure how much that's going to cost, but it will certainly be more than nothing)

Now, $100 or so isn't going to break me, but I have to watch my spending.  I'm already going to be, probably, out close to $1500 before I ever see a dime.

Is there anybody out there that thinks doing this DBA would be worth the cost?

Here's my thinking:

1. While having a business name would be cool, I don't see it generating a lot of sales.  Who really looks at that information in their decision making process?
2. Self Publishing is fast losing its stigma, so being associated with indie publishing doesn't have the downside that it perhaps did when the tip I read was published.
3. It may actually be to my advantage to play up indie roots.

Thoughts?


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## Telcontar (Feb 6, 2013)

Not worth it. Readers don't care who publishes their books as long as the book is good. Your distributors (Amazon and Smashwords and all the rest) will treat you no differently. 

Pretty much, it's a vanity thing. 

I have a pipe dream of starting up a business through which I publish my books, but that would be only one of the entertainment-related things I'd do through that brand name, so it would serve more purpose. Only when that looks feasible would I bother.


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## Devor (Feb 6, 2013)

The thing with branding, it's a lot like storytelling.  One inconsistency can break immersion.

So the answer is yes, the DBA name is worth it, _if that's the consistent brand image of your book_.

However, you also need to be honest with yourself about whether that's the true image of your book or not.  It's not true just because you say it is or because you want it to be.  Do your cover art, book blurb, sample pages and so on scream _this is a professional, well-written, well-edited book, and lots of high-quality work went into every aspect of this product?_  If that's not an image you're genuinely able to achieve, then the DBA probably is not worth it.

If that's not your image, that doesn't mean your book will automatically fail.  In my experience, work quality tends to fall into tiers, where you can easily move up or down in a tier but have a lot of trouble breaking into a higher one.  But the tiers are slanted, so that many of those in Tier 2 are doing better than many of those in Tier 1.  Getting an accurate impression of which tier you're in is important for understanding how to position your work for success.  ((Please note, this is only a perspective used to frame a situation, and is not meant to be a mystical judgmental absolute.  I don't typically go around categorizing people into tiers....))

It's kind of like officers and enlisted in the military.  Everyone expects the young Lieutenant to do well, and they often flop against the expectations.  But a Master Sergeant can gain a lot of respect and importance under the radar before anyone even takes note.  That's mostly a metaphor, and I'm sorry to our members of the military if that's not an accurate portrayal.  But the point is, if you understand the strength of your overall work and your brand, it's easier to decide what is or isn't worth it, and to pursue the right avenues of success.


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## Steerpike (Feb 6, 2013)

There are tax and other consequences of being a solo proprietor versus setting up a formal entity like an LLC.


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## Devor (Feb 6, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> There are tax and other consequences of being a solo proprietor versus setting up a formal entity like an LLC.



I typed more of a response and deleted it because my memory of these issues is a little too hazy.  But he just wants to publish under a name besides his own and isn't attempting to establish a separate legal entity.


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## Steerpike (Feb 6, 2013)

Devor said:


> I typed more of a response and deleted it because my memory of these issues is a little too hazy.  But he just wants to publish under a name besides his own and isn't attempting to establish a separate legal entity.



Ah. Yeah in that case he'd still be a sole proprietor. Instead of a DBA, I think I'd just go with an LLC or something. Those are usually cheap to set up.


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## Devor (Feb 6, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Ah. Yeah in that case he'd still be a sole proprietor. Instead of a DBA, I think I'd just go with an LLC or something. Those are usually cheap to set up.



I wanted to say that my law professor would have suggested an S Corp to avoid both the liability and the extra taxes.  But I don't remember enough about the LLC, and I've no idea what the costs are in California.


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## Steerpike (Feb 6, 2013)

I "think" an LLC can also be set up under subchapter S, so you have the advantages of both. But I'm neither an accountant nor a corporations attorney, so I would have to do some research to see the advantages and disadvantages of each.


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## BWFoster78 (Feb 6, 2013)

Wow, this is getting complicated...


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## Zero Angel (Feb 6, 2013)

I set up Apocalypse Designs as a fictitious name. I didn't have to publish in a newspaper, just file a form and pay $50. For me, I'd eventually like to publish others and release games and apps, so it wasn't a difficult decision. On the other hand, even if you just add "Publishing" to your name for your company, then I think you have to register that...

And even if it is a company name, most people group small press and indie together, so I don't think you have to worry about appearing _too_ professional.


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## BWFoster78 (Feb 6, 2013)

Okay, after doing a little bit of research, I'm just not sure what creating a business does for me in my situation.

Since I don't think I'll be seeing profits this calendar year and, as an author of fiction books, I'm not all that worried about liability, I don't see any advantage to the S corp or LLC.  I am missing something?  Can I decide to do that later if I want?

Regarding the DBA, I get what Devor is saying about brand, but I just don't see many people ever even noticing the publisher and even fewer of those caring if one isn't listed.


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## Steerpike (Feb 6, 2013)

If you're not making a lot of money, the tax consequences may not be sufficient to warrant formation. You could check with a CPA, I suppose, but I'd be surprised if you get a lot out of it.

As for liability, as you said there's probably not a whole lot there. About all I can think of would be some kind of defamation or right of publicity claim if you incorporated real-world people into your book, or intellectual property claims if you had some kind of infringement. Neither seems particularly likely, to be honest.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Feb 8, 2013)

I think there is a definite edge to using a business name. It is generally VERY inexpensive to set one up.

What model you choose depends on what you want to do. Sole proprietorship works fine for most writer/publishers. You can ask an accountant or local SBDC office for info about other forms of company.

It gives you a brand you can begin establishing for future use. Suppose, say, Amazon kills KDP tomorrow? Small presses will still do just fine. The writers who have formed small presses, or have taken the steps needed to jump into "small press mode" quickly won't be slowed at all.

Some readers still avoid self published work. Your small press business name looks just like every other small press business name, and doesn't stand out as being self published - which lets those potential readers judge you by the quality of your work, rather than preconceived notions.

It's one little extra bit of professional appearance.

It allows you to open a bank account in your business name - useful for book keeping and tax purposes. Don't just dump writing income into your personal checking account unless you want serious tax headaches.

Other reasons too, but those are some of the big ones.


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## MichaelSullivan (Feb 10, 2013)

People here are mixing several different things.  

1. Whether you use a "name" as the publisher rather than your author's name
2. What "tax determination" you make.
3. Whether you setup a LLC.

If your company is say "Sunset Publications" - you can make it a LLC or not - it's your choice and actually making it a LLC doesn't really protect you in any meanigful way.

Also, you need to pay taxes on money you get.  If you don't do anythig...Sunset is by definition an "sole-proprietorship" and the income is reported on Schedule C of your individual return.

You can become a "corporation" (Usually S - there is no reason to be come a "C" corporation) in which case Sunset has it's own return and the income from that return is also included on you income tax return.  (If you became a "C" corporation - again not recommended - the it would have it's own tax return and it would pay corporate tax and only income you took out of it would show up on your tax return.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Feb 11, 2013)

Most states in the US require you to file paperwork (somewhere - most often with the Secretary of State's office) even to start a sole proprietorship. Some states will waive the requirement if you're not using a fictitious name (Role of the Hero Publishing - my company - is a fictitious name; McLaughlin Publishing would not be).

So if you want to put "Sunset Publications" on your books, and on sites listing your books, DO check with your state regulations. Odds are good you have to file some sort of paper and pay a small fee.

LLC and S Corp are different animals.  Generally, those are useful for people who want to limit their personal liability for company expenses, for example in the case of the company going bankrupt, you don't want to lose your home. Having an LLC or S corp can help prevent you losing your own assets if the company goes bust. (Even then, it doesn't always work - most creditors will require you personally sign for debt during the first five years or so that you're in business, because they know most small businesses fail.)

For a business like self publishing? Heh. You're not accruing debt, in most cases. The odds of bankruptcy making any sense are slim. Your worst case is someone sues you for libel or trademark infringement, in which case you as author AND publisher are going to be sued, and the LLC/S corp isn't going to save you. So in most cases, until you are pulling in enough money for the S corp to be useful for tax purposes (check with your accountant - I think we're talking six figures, though), it's probably not worth the indie writer's time to go down those paths.

A DBA/sole proprietorship makes a lot of sense for a variety of reasons though; outlined some of those reasons above.


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## Zero Angel (Feb 11, 2013)

Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> Most states in the US require you to file paperwork (somewhere - most often with the Secretary of State's office) even to start a sole proprietorship. Some states will waive the requirement if you're not using a fictitious name (Role of the Hero Publishing - my company - is a fictitious name; McLaughlin Publishing would not be).



I'd be wary about this. SBA (Small Business Administration) has this to say: 





> For example, consider this scenario: John Smith sets up a painting business. Rather than operate under his own name, John instead chooses to name his business: “John Smith Painting”. This name is considered an assumed name and John will need to register it with the appropriate local government agency.



Another source I read said that a fictitious name is one that does not have your last name or one that suggests multiple owners. e.g. John's Painting or Smith & Family Painting. According to this source, John Smith Painting would be OK.

Check your local laws—every state is allowed to have different regulations and penalties.


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## BWFoster78 (Feb 11, 2013)

I think I've decided to forego the fictitious business name for my first book and just leave the publisher blank.  In my county, it's going to be at least $100 to set up the name, and I just don't think it will make enough sales to get that $100 back.

I simply can't imagine many people even looking at who the publisher is, much less deciding not to make a purchase because of it.

Unless anyone has experience to the contrary?


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## Zero Angel (Feb 11, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I think I've decided to forego the fictitious business name for my first book and just leave the publisher blank.  In my county, it's going to be at least $100 to set up the name, and I just don't think it will make enough sales to get that $100 back.
> 
> I simply can't imagine many people even looking at who the publisher is, much less deciding not to make a purchase because of it.
> 
> Unless anyone has experience to the contrary?



Well, you'll EVENTUALLY make that money back (especially as you release more and more), but that money can be better used elsewhere in my opinion. It was only $50 for me, and I had already made that much money in pre-order pledges for my novel. 

Aside: Are you talking about your novel or your short story though? I thought you were going traditional for your novel?


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## BWFoster78 (Feb 11, 2013)

> Aside: Are you talking about your novel or your short story though? I thought you were going traditional for your novel?



My short story, I'm just going to give away on my website.  No Amazon or anything.

For the novel, I entered it into Amazon's contest, but I don't hold out a lot of hope of winning.  If I do win a publishing deal, I'll obviously go traditional.  Otherwise, I'm self pubbing.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 15, 2013)

For reasons totally personal (I've always wanted to own a business), I've decided to start an LLC.

A couple of quick questions:

Which sounds better:

A. "Insert Company Name" Press
B. "Insert Company Name" Publishing

I'm leaning toward A.

If anyone has knowledge of establishing LLCs, my understanding is that I can establish anywhere that I can come up with an address for.  Since CA charges $800/yr for the priviledge, I'm going with my parent's address in LA.  Though I don't live there, can I still be my own registered agent or should I choose one of my parents?

Thanks!

Brian


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## Chilari (Mar 15, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Which sounds better:
> 
> A. "Insert Company Name" Press
> B. "Insert Company Name" Publishing



Depends what "Insert Company Name" will be replaced by. For example, using your name alone, I prefer "Brian Publishing" over "Brian Press" but "Foster Press" over "Foster Publishing". But if I was starting a publishing business using my last name, I like "Leiper Publishing" more than "Leiper Press".

As for the rest of what you've asked, I know very little about starting a business in the UK, and none at all about it stateside.


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## Devor (Mar 15, 2013)

"Press," to me, implies that you're publishing something regularly and in print, like a newsletter.  "Hot off the presses!"  I think Publishing is more accurate to what you're doing.

I've no idea about the details, sorry.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 15, 2013)

Chilari said:


> Depends what "Insert Company Name" will be replaced by. For example, using your name alone, I prefer "Brian Publishing" over "Brian Press" but "Foster Press" over "Foster Publishing". But if I was starting a publishing business using my last name, I like "Leiper Publishing" more than "Leiper Press".
> 
> As for the rest of what you've asked, I know very little about starting a business in the UK, and none at all about it stateside.



I think I'm more concerned at this point about the respective connotation of Publishing vs. Press.


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## Steerpike (Mar 15, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I think I'm more concerned at this point about the respective connotation of Publishing vs. Press.



It won't make a bit of difference to anyone. As far as most people are concerned the two are interchangeable, and no one is going to think "Press" means you have a printing press sitting around somewhere. So I'd just go with whichever has the most appealing sound to you.


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## Graylorne (Mar 15, 2013)

I just today launched the website of my own publishing business. To me it was easy as I already had a Dutch DBA equivalent for my internet gamesshop. I have to pay taxes etc as a small business already, so it's actually better to register this second business as well (it's a subsidiary). Over here it's a job for the Chamber of Commerce, which is in NL more of an official board than in the US, I believe. 

So as it doesn't cost me anything extra, I am now Red Rune Books. 

With six titles upcoming (I also retained my international rights for the Revenaunt-series that's being published in NL), it looks more professional, also because I'm paying for quality covers and editing as well, and use my own ISBN-numbers.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Mar 15, 2013)

Whether Press or Publishing sounds better likely depends on what the rest of the name is.  


Why are you looking at an LLC? LLCs exist to limit your personal liability for business debts. In general, indie publishing companies are not going to run into a lot of debts, especially in the early years. I'm not sure what you'd be taking out loans for, or asking for credit for...

An LLC is *not* going to protect you from being sued; as sole proprietor, you're just going to be targeted instead.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 15, 2013)

Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> Whether Press or Publishing sounds better likely depends on what the rest of the name is.
> 
> 
> Why are you looking at an LLC? LLCs exist to limit your personal liability for business debts. In general, indie publishing companies are not going to run into a lot of debts, especially in the early years. I'm not sure what you'd be taking out loans for, or asking for credit for...
> ...



Truthfully, doing an LLC was less trouble, here in CA, than doing a DBA and less expensive than an S-Corp.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 15, 2013)

You now have the privilege of communicating with the CEO of:

Sunshine Speculative Fiction Press

Cool, huh?

My plan for the logo is a broadsword crossed with a 50's style laser blaster over a sun.


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## Devor (Mar 15, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Truthfully, doing an LLC was less trouble, here in CA, than doing a DBA and less expensive than an S-Corp.



If that's going to be your motivation, then really, we should get a few people together and call it "Mythic Publishing" or something.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Mar 15, 2013)

Wow. Just...wow. Remind me never to move to CA?

In Vermont and Massuchusetts, the DBA form is one page long, simple enough that anyone can fill it out, and has about a $50 filing fee. In VT, you file with the Secretary of State, and in MA you file with the local town clerk's office.

That's it; done.

How the HECK is CA getting away with making it so hard to open a business???? I'd think that would be a nightmare for the economy.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Mar 15, 2013)

Hmmm. Missing something. Only seeing a $26 filing fee for a fictitious name in LA. Add in the requirement to publicize the new business in a local paper for four weeks, and it's $51 - the cheapest four week ad I could find in the papers they recommend was $25 for four weeks.

So...yeah. About the same price for a basic business license and name registration as out here. Unless I am missing some sort of hidden fee?


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## Graylorne (Mar 15, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> You now have the privilege of communicating with the CEO of:
> 
> Sunshine Speculative Fiction Press
> 
> Cool, huh?




Let me bid you welcome in the club of speculative publishers!


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 15, 2013)

Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> Hmmm. Missing something. Only seeing a $26 filing fee for a fictitious name in LA. Add in the requirement to publicize the new business in a local paper for four weeks, and it's $51 - the cheapest four week ad I could find in the papers they recommend was $25 for four weeks.
> 
> So...yeah. About the same price for a basic business license and name registration as out here. Unless I am missing some sort of hidden fee?



Kevin,

The requirements for Riverside County, where I live is:

$58 filing fee
Publish my fictitious business name statement in a local newspaper for four consecutive weeks 

So a little bit more apparently than LA county and a little less than the LLC route.  Wasn't a lot more to do the LLC, though, and I didn't have to deal with running an ad.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Mar 15, 2013)

Gotcha.    Well, either way - welcome to the club.


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## Devor (Mar 15, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Since CA charges $800/yr for the priviledge . . .



I'm a little confused, BW.  What's that number referring to?  Is that a typo?


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 17, 2013)

Devor said:


> I'm a little confused, BW.  What's that number referring to?  Is that a typo?



According to the nice lady at Legalzoom, the state of CA charges a tax of $800/yr just to own a corporation.  This fee applies whether the company makes any money or not.


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## Devor (Mar 17, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> According to the nice lady at Legalzoom, the state of CA charges a tax of $800/yr just to own a corporation.  This fee applies whether the company makes any money or not.



That's what I thought.

I was extremely confused because I assumed LA meant Los Angeles, and it makes no sense to set yourself up for those kind of taxes.  But I guess your parents actually live in LA = Louisiana?


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 17, 2013)

Devor said:


> That's what I thought.
> 
> I was extremely confused because I assumed LA meant Los Angeles, and it makes no sense to set yourself up for those kind of taxes.  But I guess your parents actually live in LA = Louisiana?



Correct.

Sorry for the confusion.


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## Zero Angel (Mar 17, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> According to the nice lady at Legalzoom, the state of CA charges a tax of $800/yr just to own a corporation.  This fee applies whether the company makes any money or not.



I was reading about this in regards to being an Amazon Affiliate, and some of the workarounds people had. Some sites said that they had to do the $800/yr to register their out-of-state business as a foreign entity in California...


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