# Cartography Forum/Sub-Forum



## Johnny Cosmo (Dec 16, 2011)

It seems like people really take to showing off their maps in the cartography thread in the world-building forum, and it has evolved from a simple map showcase to a discussion on cartography software, techniques, and feedback. There was also a bit of interest in an AutoRealm thread a while back too. I know there is the Cartographer's Guild (which is really cool) for further exploration, but the amount of talented cartographers over there is intimidating, and I'm sure users here would appreciate the comforts of the Mythic Scribes forums, where we might feel more open, relaxed, and confident about posting our work.

Is it reasonable to suggest a cartography forum (or sub-forum) where people can showcase maps, gather feedback, post tutorials, et cetera?


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## myrddin173 (Dec 16, 2011)

This would probably be a good idea.  Though I might expand it to include other visual things as well.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Dec 16, 2011)

Yeah, it'd probably be good to expand to 'artwork'.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Dec 16, 2011)

"Maps & Artwork" perhaps.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Dec 16, 2011)

Actually, the problem with a general artwork forum is that specific tutorials and discussions would be lost easily (providing there is a healthy amount of activity). Sub-forums would help, but the problem with having multiple sub-forums is that even with a decent level of activity it will still seem empty...

Or perhaps the mods could compile links to tutorials and sticky helpful discussions? Perhaps a weekly run-down thread that showcases members work, compiles tutorials and useful threads, and more. That sounds cool...


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## myrddin173 (Dec 16, 2011)

Having a stickied index of tutorials and such is easily done.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Dec 16, 2011)

Yeah, but there ought to be some sort of quality control.


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## Devor (Dec 16, 2011)

I don't know if there would be enough posts to warrant a thread just on mapmaking.

On the other hand, someone could reach out to the Cartographer's Guild website and see about forming some kind of partnership.  They might have people who'd be glad to help out when worlds go in need of a map.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Dec 16, 2011)

> On the other hand, someone could reach out to the Cartographer's Guild website and see about forming some kind of partnership. They might have people who'd be glad to help out when worlds go in need of a map.



Or just sign up at the Cartographer's Guild, since they cover that anyway. The point is, since it's quite a big part of fantasy world-building, why not support cartography discussion here? The community is smaller here, and is comprised of writers primarily (rather than cartographers), so it is likely to be a more comfortable atmosphere for beginners and dabblers to share work.


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## Devor (Dec 16, 2011)

It's just, in my opinion that seems to be happening here about as much as it's going to.  I don't think a new forum will get many posts at all, and that wouldn't be good for the community.

On the other hand, if you invited the Cartographer's Guild for some kind of paired activity, it could drive the discussion forward quite a bit more than an extra dead forum.

((edit))

That may have sounded stronger than I meant it to.  I've mentioned elsewhere that we're missing a place to share artwork which we find inspiring, I just don't think it should be a new forum.


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## Ravana (Dec 17, 2011)

Plug it in under "Showcase" as a subforum, maybe? Seems about the right place for it.


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## Telcontar (Dec 17, 2011)

I'd encourage it to be a general artwork forum. In a sticky at the top we can encourage people to use proper tagging to seperate maps from other artwork. We shouldn't be trying to rival the Cartographer's Guild in any of this stuff, anyway - let's face it, they have a lock on the whole mapping thing. Our forum's purpose should be to provide a place where, as hinted above, the standards (and excpectations) are a wee bit lower...


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## Johnny Cosmo (Dec 17, 2011)

> Plug it in under "Showcase" as a subforum, maybe? Seems about the right place for it.



This, maybe, if it's an 'artwork' forum. World-building if it's a 'cartography' forum.



> We shouldn't be trying to rival the Cartographer's Guild in any of this stuff, anyway - let's face it, they have a lock on the whole mapping thing. Our forum's purpose should be to provide a place where, as hinted above, the standards (and excpectations) are a wee bit lower...



And yes, I agree completely. A more relaxed, less serious approach would be better.


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## Codey Amprim (Dec 18, 2011)

How about a "concept art" subcategory in the showcase? Cause, well, that's what they'd be. I'd look forward to posting more than just maps. Orrr... I remember when I'd scour around on deviant art... Why not utilize the entirety of Mythic Scribes? Why not add another webpage (look above; you'll see Home, Forum, About, etc.)? There, members can have artwork showcases as well. I know the individual profiles have an area where you can upload photos, but I believe they're limited to file size and whatnot.

I think this could possibly open up a new area for fantasy lovers. The ultimate end result: a mini social networking site, for fantasy lovers. Well, I don't know about that last part, haha.


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## Black Dragon (Dec 18, 2011)

Codey Amprim said:
			
		

> Why not add another webpage (look above; you'll see Home, Forum, About, etc.)? There, members can have artwork showcases as well.
> 
> The ultimate end result: a mini social networking site, for fantasy lovers.



I'm liking this idea a lot.

So...  what do you guys think of us adding an art gallery, with a specific section for maps?


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## Telcontar (Dec 18, 2011)

Thumbs up.


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## Ravana (Dec 19, 2011)

Works for me. Sounds better than a subforum.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Dec 19, 2011)

> _Why not add another webpage (look above; you'll see Home, Forum, About, etc.)? There, members can have artwork showcases as well._
> 
> _The ultimate end result: a mini social networking site, for fantasy lovers._



It's a good idea... but will it be see much use if it's not a part of the forum? Groups would have been useful for this, but there's no interest in them. Articles are slow to be updated, and slow to amass comments (in comparison to threads), and 'resources' is largely neglected.

We already have a potential 'mini social-networking site' in profiles, but do profiles see much action?


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## Devor (Dec 19, 2011)

Wouldn't it be weird to have a showcase gallery for artwork before the site is capable of hosting full-length stories?  I think it would be cool if the site would let us feature our work and connect it to our profiles, as well as a main showcase page.

My only concern was with creating another forum.  In my experience the more forums you have on a website, the thinner you spread out the community.  But if you can create features to support the forums, or find ways to expand what happens in each forum in a way that makes sense, you can strengthen the community instead of wearing it down.  So showcasing maps elsewhere on the site, or as part of the World Building forum (via a sticky with links to every map), or some other mechanism, would be pretty cool in my book.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Dec 19, 2011)

> Wouldn't it be weird to have a showcase gallery for artwork before the site is capable of hosting full-length stories? I think it would be cool if the site would let us feature our work and connect it to our profiles, as well as a main showcase page.
> 
> My only concern was with creating another forum. In my experience the more forums you have on a website, the thinner you spread out the community. But if you can create features to support the forums, or find ways to expand what happens in each forum in a way that makes sense, you can strengthen the community instead of wearing it down. So showcasing maps elsewhere on the site, or as part of the World Building forum (via a sticky with links to every map), or some other mechanism, would be pretty cool in my book.



I generally agree with you. The forum is spread thin as it is, and the website (on a whole) is pretty much a forum with some under-used extras. If groups weren't so neglected, then it'd be a decent solution... but even then, it's probably too much hassle to join a group just to show off a map, for most people. I think a sticked post is a good idea for a very specific purpose (showcasing art), but it wouldn't really achieve anything else this thread has discussed, that the cartography thread has not, unless a moderator could put a lot of effort into updating it often, and separate discussions could be kept organised and easy-to-follow, in one thread (although, useful discussions could be linked from the sticky I guess).

It's a tricky one, this.


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## Devor (Dec 19, 2011)

Johnny Cosmo said:


> ...unless a moderator could put a lot of effort into updating it often, and separate discussions could be kept organised and easy-to-follow, in one thread (although, useful discussions could be linked from the sticky I guess).



This.

A forum with this level of activity should be reaching out to its strongest community members to build things like a well-managed sticky thread.  Putting together a team and building a management structure is the next growth stage for a web community from here.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Dec 19, 2011)

> A forum with this level of activity should be reaching out to its strongest community members to build things like a well-managed sticky thread. Putting together a team and building a management structure is the next growth stage for a web community from here.



I was just thinking that this community really feels like it's not going anywhere. Don't get me wrong, I love it here... but whilst the members keep coming, and the average users online has risen, the forum doesn't feel any more active. A bit of focus, structure, and development is needed.


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## Devor (Dec 19, 2011)

Johnny Cosmo said:


> I was just thinking that this community really feels like it's not going anywhere. Don't get me wrong, I love it here... but whilst the members keep coming, and the average users online has risen, the forum doesn't feel any more active. A bit of focus, structure, and development is needed.



Yep. New members are coming in, but older ones are getting less and less active because their return-on-activity isn't very large.  The conversation in the forum needs to be beneficial to you, or your ability to help others needs to be significant.  But there's nobody directing the conversation, so threads keep repeating themselves, old conversations never seem to settle, nothing seems to be achieved.  There's thread after thread with questions like, "Should I bother with prologues?" and nobody who's followed up with, "Here's the pros and cons and what-not-to-dos of writing a prologue."  Doing those kinds of things would put the basic questions aside and help the conversation grow into areas that are more useful and nuanced to the people contributing.  The goal would be to see less, "What's your favorite monster?" and more, "Here's this monster I'm working on, what can I do to make it better?"


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## Johnny Cosmo (Dec 19, 2011)

It can also get tiresome ploughing through a page of people posting to agree with user X, or repeating something that's already been said. Sure, it's a free world... but it waters down potentially useful threads, and I rarely feel like searching for the quality posts (which might lead me to add to the discussion).


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## Devor (Dec 19, 2011)

Johnny Cosmo said:


> It can also get tiresome ploughing through a page of people posting to agree with user X, or repeating something that's already been said. Sure, it's a free world... but it waters down potentially useful threads, and I rarely feel like searching for the quality posts (which might lead me to add to the discussion).



Yeah, exactly.  But if someone were managing a thread in the Writing Forum, for instance, where one post summed up all the best points about using a prologue (and then maybe linked to the two or three discussions on it), and the next post summed up all the best points about titling your chapters, and so on, then there would be a permanent growth to the conversation.

To bring it back to point, I think someone should do that in the World Building forum with maps.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Dec 19, 2011)

Yeah... like the mods should choose 'topic leaders'. That's not to say it has to be the most knowledgeable person managing the stickied thread, just anybody who can maintain a nice, clean, useful first post. Then the rest of the thread can still be used as a discussion on that specific topic. 

Seems like the best idea to me; rather than stretching the forum over more categories, each category can have a few stickies on the biggest or most popular topics. Almost like a FAQ.


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## Black Dragon (Dec 19, 2011)

Johnny Cosmo said:


> Articles are slow to be updated, and slow to amass comments (in comparison to threads), and 'resources' is largely neglected.
> 
> We already have a potential 'mini social-networking site' in profiles, but do profiles see much action?



There's a lot more that we can be doing here.  Mythic Scribes was never intended to be just a forum with a blog.  Those were just "phase one," so to speak.  We've been working on building up the forum, as that's a crucial part of the process, but it's only a foundation.  

Regarding the articles, we only post one a week because, frankly, that's the only reasonable pace for us to produce them (for now).  Eventually we would like to post more frequently, but we would need a team of dedicated volunteer writers for that.  Would there be an interest in assembling a team of regular writers for the home page?

There isn't much on the resources page now.  It was intended to be used for link exchanges with other fantasy related sites.  We could possibly develop it into some sort of interactive resource directory.  Or would it be more useful in some other form?


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## Black Dragon (Dec 19, 2011)

Devor said:


> Putting together a team and building a management structure is the next growth stage for a web community from here.



You may be right.  What sort of roles would you envision in a successful management structure?


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## Black Dragon (Dec 19, 2011)

Devor said:


> But there's nobody directing the conversation, so threads keep repeating themselves, old conversations never seem to settle, nothing seems to be achieved.



Yeah, that's the nature of forums.  As long as you have a forum with free-flowing conversation, you will have these sort of things.  

However, we are by no means stuck with the forum model.  It may be possible to integrate something like a moderated FAQ where the best answers on various topics can be cataloged and categorized.  Would there be interest in something like this?


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## Devor (Dec 19, 2011)

Black Dragon said:


> You may be right.  What sort of roles would you envision in a successful management structure?



If you want to send me a message I'd be happy to chat about it, maybe on IM?  I've had a little experience doing this in the past.  But I wouldn't want to just post a list of ideas for a few reasons, but mostly because it's got to be right for the people in those roles more than anything else.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Dec 19, 2011)

> Regarding the articles, we only post one a week because, frankly, that's the only reasonable pace for us to produce them (for now). Eventually we would like to post more frequently, but we would need a team of dedicated volunteer writers for that. Would there be an interest in assembling a team of regular writers for the home page?



I think the website needs more going for it than a weekly blog article and a forum. This is about the only good forum that's dedicated to *only *fantasy writing (rather than writing in general or fantasy and sci-fi), and I think it's being sold short with articles on music inspiration, a video game discussion, the top six disappointing movies, and so on. Sure, I bet some users enjoy the articles... but they can find that anywhere. 

Most of the users here are aspiring writers, but the articles don't cater to them. In fact, convince Ravana to hold off on some of the lengthier forum responses and adapt them as articles, and the homepage will be well on it's way to fulfilling it's potential.



> There isn't much on the resources page now. It was intended to be used for link exchanges with other fantasy related sites. We could possibly develop it into some sort of interactive resource directory. Or would it be more useful in some other form?


I don't think it's really necessary. If it's a link exchange, call it a link exchange and put it in a sidebar on the homepage. 



> You may be right. What sort of roles would you envision in a successful management structure?



Thought I'd give my thoughts; at least one _active_ mod per forum, who can sticky helpful threads from members (effectively making them a sort of thread mod, mine and Devor's previous posts cover that idea). Also, since I don't see you around much, perhaps a second admin?



> If you want to send me a message I'd be happy to chat about it, maybe on IM? I've had a little experience doing this in the past. But I wouldn't want to just post a list of ideas for a few reasons, but mostly because it's got to be right for the people in those roles more than anything else.


I don't really see why including other members in the discussion is a big problem...


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## Codey Amprim (Dec 19, 2011)

This thread went a little off track. I'm trying to figure out what's actually going to happen about the website as a whole now over the artwork/concept art issue lol. Or maybe I'm missing something, I've been working all day. IDK

BTW, I'd love to add some thought to your conversation about the general direction of the site with you guys. 

Anyways, on the article writing platform, I'd love to volunteer or help out with them, I just need some direction! I'd be willing to talk about it to whoever outside of this thread.


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## Black Dragon (Dec 19, 2011)

> I think it's being sold short with articles on music inspiration, a  video game discussion, the top six disappointing movies, and so on.



That's a matter of opinion.  In any case, if we are going to have more articles of the nature that you are suggesting, we are going to need more writers.  I can only do so much by myself...  especially with a demanding full-time job and an even more demanding 16 month old.

Again, we could put together an "article team" of volunteers to cover this.  Other sites have done similar things.  Do you think that there would be interest?



> at least one _active_ mod per forum



Why is active italicized?  



> Also, since I don't see you around much, perhaps a second admin?



I'm not sure how to take this.  

You do realize that I'm working on this site pretty much constantly when I'm not at my place of employment, right?  Even if I'm not posting, I'm almost certainly hard at work on _something_ behind the scenes.

But that's beside the point.

What is relevant is that I'm listening to feedback on how we can improve this community, and am always open to new ideas.  You've expressed some good ideas as to how we can take things to the next level.  But to get there, we need committed volunteers.  Are you volunteering?


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## Johnny Cosmo (Dec 19, 2011)

> That's a matter of opinion. In any case, if we are going to have more articles of the nature that you are suggesting, we are going to need more writers. I can only do so much by myself... especially with a demanding full-time job and an even more demanding 16 month old.
> 
> Again, we could put together an "article team" of volunteers to cover this. Other sites have done similar things. Do you think that there would be interest?



Sorry, I thought I'd responded to that. I think I went to alter a previous line and accidentally deleted it... but yeah, that's all I was getting at. And yes, it is a matter of opinion when it comes down to it... but whilst those sort of posts can be fun, wouldn't you agree that the potential for providing users with focused writing guides, helpful tutorials, valuable insights, tips, and resource run-downs would be a better use of the space that most newcomers will land in when they first arrive? With tags and categories for the articles, it's also a decent archive for the forum users to learn from. That's not to say that the less serious or less focused articles should completely disappear, just that they're the type of article that work best as a minority.



> Why is active italicized?



Actually, it's just because I don't recognise the staff names. That said, at least two of the moderators don't post much, there's only four mods who seem to govern five forums... and the rest are without mods. Is the forum leaders page up-to-date? I was going to say that four mods for 16 forums is lacking... 



> I'm not sure how to take this.



Oh no, I meant that innocently, as in; to lighten the burden of running this place. It's only because there's not much changing with the user experience though. If you're busy behind the scenes that's totally understandable, but I think the point still remains.



> Are you volunteering?



I'm not sure I'm qualified in a way that's useful.


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## Black Dragon (Dec 20, 2011)

Johnny Cosmo said:


> there's only four mods who seem to govern five forums... and the rest are without mods. Is the forum leaders page up-to-date? I was going to say that four mods for 16 forums is lacking...



The forum leaders page lists the categories that each moderator is responsible for.  Each of the forums falls under one of the five categories.  So each forum actually has a moderator.



> I'm not sure I'm qualified in a way that's useful.



If you're willing, I'm sure that we can find something for you.


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## Black Dragon (Dec 20, 2011)

Codey Amprim said:


> I'm trying to figure out what's actually going to happen about the website as a whole now over the artwork/concept art issue lol.



We're going to add an image gallery, with sections for maps and original fantasy art.  It will be integrated with the forums.

This will be happening after the holidays.



> Anyways, on the article writing platform, I'd love to volunteer or help out with them, I just need some direction! I'd be willing to talk about it to whoever outside of this thread.



We'd love to have you as part of the team!  We'll be in contact in January.


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## Black Dragon (Dec 20, 2011)

This discussion will be continued here:

http://mythicscribes.com/forums/news-announcements/1839-changes-coming-post21434.htmlhttp://mythicscribes.com/forums/news-announcements/1839-changes-coming.html


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