# Who would a Knight take with him on a Quest?



## Ruby (Jan 15, 2014)

Who would a Knight take with him on a Quest? Would he take his Squire and his Page? He would need help dressing and caring for his horse, wouldn't he? Would he also be accompanied by other soldiers?

The knight has gone to steal a golden cup from a dragon. If he succeeds, he can marry the princess. The dragon has now retaliated by setting fire to the King's castle. 

If the knight is still alive, would a messenger be sent to the castle, to ask for help?


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## SeverinR (Jan 15, 2014)

The knight would take a Squire if the boy would not hender the mission. ie they are dependable, capable and loyal.
If dangerous, then brave would also be a requirement.
Page would probably be too young to take with them on an extended trip if it was not done in grand fashion.  If the knight is taking alot of his belongings and moving slow, the page could go. But if not leave him to continue his duties at home.

Squire is a knight in training(older then 10, with some weapons training), page is a young boy(under 10) serving the knight in hopes of becoming a squire. The page would just beginning martial training.

Think of a Squire as a knight in training, a Page is a cupbearer with dreams.

If a messenger was available it could be sent.  Help would be a small force, because obviously sending thousands of troops to fight a dragon wouldn't work or the knight would have led that attack in the first place.  But the castle is damaged and might need most or all to maintain defense and make repairs.


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## Ruby (Jan 15, 2014)

Thank you, SeverinR. it's interesting that the page would not come with. Both the Squire and the Page would come from noble families, wouldn't they? They had to be rich to train as knights.

Say the princess decided to disguise herself as a knight and try to go to the hero's rescue, do you think she could take the Page with her? (Well, it is a fantasy story.)


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## Spider (Jan 15, 2014)

Ruby said:


> Say the princess decided to disguise herself as a knight and try to go to the hero's rescue, do you think she could take the Page with her? (Well, it is a fantasy story.)



If you can make it believable, it'll work. There are a variety of ways that you can work with this-- Maybe both the princess and the Page have a desire to prove themselves, so they decide to go together. Maybe the Page is the only one who is willing to accompany the princess since the others are discouraging her. Or maybe there is something personal at stake for both the princess and the Page that motivates them to set out and rescue the hero.


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## WeilderOfTheMonkeyBlade (Jan 15, 2014)

depends on your knight. Is he from a high medieval esque society, and would he need servants for everything? or is he from a rather more rough and ready place? Is he little more than a mailed thug? if he is then he would probably take his mates. Depends on the culture here, and the person. Is he fop, or is he a rough, tortured soul, setting out on the quest by himself? 

Also, this is a petty hate of mine, and I'll try not to rant here..... (no promise mind...) 

But what really annoys me, is the small band of heroes thing..... EITHER GO BY YOURSELF OR TAKE ANY ARMY,DAMN IT!!!!! WHY SAY THAT A SMALL GROUP CAN GO WHERE AN ARMY CANT, WHEN THEY END UP IN A SITUATION WHERE HAVING AN ARMY WOULD BE A GOOD THING?????? 

*wipes spittle from his mouth, unclenches fists, looks around furtively* and so, as I deftly managed to not get enraged here, I'll end by saying that it is up to you, it is up to the story and the plot, and in the end, it is up to the story.... you cant force something into a story (well you can, but it comes out all nasty and twisted.) 

HOPE THIS HELPS AND GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR WRITING SIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## SeverinR (Jan 15, 2014)

WeilderOfTheMonkeyBlade said:


> depends on your knight. Is he from a high medieval esque society, and would he need servants for everything? or is he from a rather more rough and ready place? Is he little more than a mailed thug? if he is then he would probably take his mates. Depends on the culture here, and the person. Is he fop, or is he a rough, tortured soul, setting out on the quest by himself?
> 
> Also, this is a petty hate of mine, and I'll try not to rant here..... (no promise mind...)
> 
> ...



I would agree to a point. I probably have this from the military(USAF) Wingman and fire teams. Two is more survivable, four is a small unique group that knows their tasks to get the job done. So I would agree, if you can't do it with 2 or 4, bring an sizable military force. (also original Conan supported this, 3 plus the Wizard.)


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## Caged Maiden (Jan 15, 2014)

It does seem a rag-tag group to best a dragon... A knight, a squire, a page and a disguised princess.  I'm trying not to read too much into your story, because I wrote an old man, his grandson, and a young woman who was their charge, meeting a dragon.  However, in my story, they didn't go to kill a dragon, they went to negotiate, and they had considerable magic powers and no other option.  They couldn't take an army because the dragon's resting place was a closely guarded secret and they were the keepers of the dragon's safety.  So... even though three mortals went before a dragon, and almost accidentally got roasted in the process, there weren't any other choices.

If the knight is going to try to slay a dragon, I'd make his motivation really strong and bring him whatever he believes is reasonably necessary to succeed... probably more.  Even if I were the bravest summabitch in the world... I'd make sure I brought everything up to and including the kitchen sink, before meeting a dragon I intended to kill.  I wouldn't want to leave my future to chance.


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## wordwalker (Jan 15, 2014)

Related point: how much armor does he have on this mission? If he's got something like full plate, that's a lot of weight to ride with, and the further he has to travel the more that, plus the horse's food, starts to add up. He might need an extra horse just to carry it all, and then having someone else along (with _their_ horse and supplies) to look after the animals starts to look more practical than riding alone. 

(Less so if he's stopping at people's homes each night. Lancelot had a knack for traveling alone but finding friends, enemies who'd become friends after they lost to him, and hospitable hermits every night.)


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## Ruby (Jan 15, 2014)

Caged Maiden said:


> It does seem a rag-tag group to best a dragon... A knight, a squire, a page and a disguised princess.  I'm trying not to read too much into your story, because I wrote an old man, his grandson, and a young woman who was their charge, meeting a dragon.  However, in my story, they didn't go to kill a dragon, they went to negotiate, and they had considerable magic powers and no other option.  They couldn't take an army because the dragon's resting place was a closely guarded secret and they were the keepers of the dragon's safety.  So... even though three mortals went before a dragon, and almost accidentally got roasted in the process, there weren't any other choices.
> 
> If the knight is going to try to slay a dragon, I'd make his motivation really strong and bring him whatever he believes is reasonably necessary to succeed... probably more.  Even if I were the bravest summabitch in the world... I'd make sure I brought everything up to and including the kitchen sink, before meeting a dragon I intended to kill.  I wouldn't want to leave my future to chance.


Hi Caged Maiden, this story started as posts on the Challenge ABC Fantasy forum. If you have the time, or the inclination, perhaps you could read the posts. I would appreciate it if you did. My story is comedic, but it has now become a little more serious as the Princess has to save Sir Lanceypot. This has turned into a story, almost by accident, so now comes the research. 
The knight's motivation was that the King sent him to steal a golden cup from the dragon so that he could marry the princess. The princess' motivation is to find out what's happened to the knight. Maybe, she will have to choose some more companions to help her on her quest, as you say.


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## Ruby (Jan 15, 2014)

Spider said:


> If you can make it believable, it'll work. There are a variety of ways that you can work with this-- Maybe both the princess and the Page have a desire to prove themselves, so they decide to go together. Maybe the Page is the only one who is willing to accompany the princess since the others are discouraging her. Or maybe there is something personal at stake for both the princess and the Page that motivates them to set out and rescue the hero.


Hi, Spider, yet again this could be a good plot! Perhaps, she could find one other knight to help her, or meet one along the way?


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## Malik (Jan 16, 2014)

My knights each travel with a sergeant or two, who have earned a place in the order through skill at arms. Typically a sergeant is a seasoned professional, working-class soldier who hasn't been knighted yet. As in our military, not every sergeant aspires to higher; it's a pretty good gig being a sergeant in a chivalric order. 

The orders function as elite military guilds or fraternities, so better pay and better missions as opposed to being in the nation's standing army. I modeled the chivalric orders after my own experiences serving in elite units in our Army and private military contracting and how they contrasted with my experiences in 'Big Army.' I didn't have to hyperbolize much; some of it is drawn closer than you'd believe.

On long trips they often employ valets, who are noncombatants but function as grooms, cooks, arming aides, and general camp help.

On the big mission at the end of the first book, a knight takes three sergeants, a valet, a total of nine horses, plus a big dog and a horse-drawn cart. Then members of his order get wind of the mission and meet him halfway with three knights, their valets and sergeants, a smith and all his gear, and a representative of the king sent to observe. It's quite the traveling circus.


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## WeilderOfTheMonkeyBlade (Jan 16, 2014)

Malik, Thanks for posting the link to your blog!!!! It is Brilliant!!!! 

I both love military history, and am working on a big military fantasy, with a lot of different armies and fighting. And as I love to obsess over the armour of each of the different units and so on, your blog is great- tons of good information and really well written, not boring like in some of the books that I've read. 

If your prose is like that then I would LOVE to read your book.


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## Penpilot (Jan 16, 2014)

The knight would take whoever would make the most interesting story. Depending on the type of story, you can go all realistic and figure out who he'd need to support them and their armor and horses, etc. OR, you can have them go alone, with one horse, galloping 100 miles a day, while they do back-flips in full plate on its back.

Never let facts or pragmatism get in the way of a good story. If it makes for an interesting story, you can have the knight take the baker, the town drunk, and their mother along. Again, think about the type of story you're telling, figure out what characters in terms of story you'll need to tell that story, and anybody beyond those characters doesn't matter so much.


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## skip.knox (Jan 16, 2014)

Since it's fantasy, you can have whatever you please. All the more so since it is comedy. Real medieval knights almost never traveled alone. The typical company was knight plus three sergeants, also called men-at-arms. These were non-noble fighters who also tended to the knight himself. The knight shared plunder with them and often was expected to recompense losses (e.g., one of their horses dies). That said, medieval *legends* often had knights travel alone (e.g., Sir Pellenor or Sir Galahad or the Green Knight). So, use that for reference. But really, just write what the story needs!


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## Malik (Jan 17, 2014)

WeilderOfTheMonkeyBlade said:


> Malik, Thanks for posting the link to your blog!!!! It is Brilliant!!!!
> 
> I both love military history, and am working on a big military fantasy, with a lot of different armies and fighting. And as I love to obsess over the armour of each of the different units and so on, your blog is great- tons of good information and really well written, not boring like in some of the books that I've read.
> 
> If your prose is like that then I would LOVE to read your book.



Thank you. I'm writing a series of articles for Mythic Scribes called "The Why of Weapons." The first article will be published on the 25th of January. It's closer to the writing style of my blog than my fantasy series is. My main character in my series observes and comments with my usual writing voice, though, so you'll encounter this style of writing when you're seeing his POV. A lot of the technical explanations in my fantasy series are in this kind of voice, because he's the expert and he's going through it in his head. I harbor this dream of doing for swords and mail what Tom Clancy did for the nuclear submarine. Tom Clancy, like Stephen Hunter and Michael Crichton, has a gift for technical exposition through the POVs of intensely knowledgeable characters.

Overall, though, most of the narration in my books isn't quite as colorful. It's similar, though. If you like my blog you'd like my books.


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## Ruby (Jan 19, 2014)

Hi Malik, thank you for this very interesting post.


Your blog is full of very useful information and photographs about the history and development of armour.
Have you thought about writing a reference book for (aspiring) fantasy authors on the subject?







Malik said:


> My knights each travel with a sergeant or two, who have earned a place in the order through skill at arms.
> 
> Typically a sergeant is a seasoned professional, working-class soldier who hasn't been knighted yet. As in our military, not every sergeant aspires to higher; it's a pretty good gig being a sergeant in a chivalric order.
> 
> ...


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## Ruby (Jan 19, 2014)

Hi skip.knox,

Thank you for this post.
I've started reading about King Arthur, Sir Lancelot and Guinevere. These are amazing tales. One shouldn't attempt a parody without reading the original stories.  



skip.knox said:


> Since it's fantasy, you can have whatever you please. All the more so since it is comedy. Real medieval knights almost never traveled alone. The typical company was knight plus three sergeants, also called men-at-arms. These were non-noble fighters who also tended to the knight himself. The knight shared plunder with them and often was expected to recompense losses (e.g., one of their horses dies). That said, medieval *legends* often had knights travel alone (e.g., Sir Pellenor or Sir Galahad or the Green Knight). So, use that for reference. But really, just write what the story needs!


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## Ruby (Jan 19, 2014)

Hi Penpilot,
Thanks for this. Yes, I'm debating whether to let the princess go in disguise to save the knight. But now I've learned that first she'd have to have her armour specially made to fit.




Penpilot said:


> The knight would take whoever would make the most interesting story. Depending on the type of story, you can go all realistic and figure out who he'd need to support them and their armor and horses, etc. OR, you can have them go alone, with one horse, galloping 100 miles a day, while they do back-flips in full plate on its back.
> 
> Never let facts or pragmatism get in the way of a good story. If it makes for an interesting story, you can have the knight take the baker, the town drunk, and their mother along. Again, think about the type of story you're telling, figure out what characters in terms of story you'll need to tell that story, and anybody beyond those characters doesn't matter so much.


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## Malik (Jan 19, 2014)

Ruby said:


> Hi Malik, thank you for this very interesting post.
> 
> 
> Your blog is full of very useful information and photographs about the history and development of armour.
> Have you thought about writing a reference book for (aspiring) fantasy authors on the subject?



Thank you. 

I intend for my series itself to become a reference for aspiring fantasy authors.


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## skip.knox (Jan 20, 2014)

Ruby, if you can, do read T.H. White's "The Once and Future King".  It's a trilogy. The first formed the basis for Disney's "The Sword in the Stone". The trilogy was the foundation for the play Camelot. Wonderful as both those are, the book outshines them both.


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## Malik (Jan 20, 2014)

I am going to respectfully disagree with slip.knox. _The Once and Future King_ is a wonderful read but it is a children's book and a historical train-wreck. The scene with Pellinore jousting Grummore, as funny as it is, set fantasy combat scenes back for half a century; when I was in college that scene was still the thinking among most academics as to what armored combat entailed.

On the other hand, it shows how great writing can overcome inept research.


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## skip.knox (Jan 21, 2014)

Ted White never intended it to be history, he intended it to be literature. The work is satire, at least when it's not being tragedy. He knew how to satirize because he knew the history. And the literature (Morte d'Arthur).

I get a little defensive about White, he's one of my favorite writers. Your Writer May Vary.  <friendly smile>


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## Ruby (Jan 21, 2014)

skip.knox said:


> Ted White never intended it to be history, he intended it to be literature. The work is satire, at least when it's not being tragedy. He knew how to satirize because he knew the history. And the literature (Morte d'Arthur).
> 
> I get a little defensive about White, he's one of my favorite writers. Your Writer May Vary.  <friendly smile>








Hi, I'm actually reading The Story of Sir Launcelot and his Companions by Howard Pyle on Project Gutenberg. Is this text historically correct?

There are lots of other books on there about King Arthur. 

I would be interested to know what you think of the BBC tv series "Merlin"?


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## Ruby (Jan 21, 2014)

skip.knox said:


> Ruby, if you can, do read T.H. White's "The Once and Future King".  It's a trilogy. The first formed the basis for Disney's "The Sword in the Stone". The trilogy was the foundation for the play Camelot. Wonderful as both those are, the book outshines them both.



Hi, I read T H White's book when I was a child. The Sword in the Stone is one of my favourite Disney cartoons. I've got a DVD of it somewhere. Maybe I should watch it again.  So much research! I also love the musical, Camelot, and have that on DVD, so maybe I'll watch that, too!


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## Ruby (Jan 21, 2014)

Malik said:


> I am going to respectfully disagree with slip.knox. _The Once and Future King_ is a wonderful read but it is a children's book and a historical train-wreck. The scene with Pellinore jousting Grummore, as funny as it is, set fantasy combat scenes back for half a century; when I was in college that scene was still the thinking among most academics as to what armored combat entailed.
> 
> On the other hand, it shows how great writing can overcome inept research.



Hi Malik, what do you think of  The Story of Sir Launcelot and his Companions by Howard Pyle? (on Project Gutenberg) and the BBC series, "Merlin"?

(I tried to reply with a double quote to you and Skipknox but it didn't post.)


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## skip.knox (Jan 22, 2014)

Pyle is pretty far from historically correct. He's important in another sense, though. His books were very popular and helped formed the standard stereotypes of the Middle Ages. His books on the Crusades are overly-dramatic when they're not just plain wrong.


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## skip.knox (Jan 22, 2014)

Did you read all three volumes or just the first? The first volume (The Sword in the Stone) is rather light-hearted. The middle one is more like high drama while the third is tragic to downright depressing.


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## Ruby (Jan 23, 2014)

skip.knox said:


> Did you read all three volumes or just the first? The first volume (The Sword in the Stone) is rather light-hearted. The middle one is more like high drama while the third is tragic to downright depressing.



Hi skip.knox,

I read the first volume.

Thanks to you, I'm spending a very pleasant morning watching my DVD of "The Sword in the Stone". 

This is what I call research!


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## Ruby (Feb 9, 2014)

skip.knox said:


> Ruby, if you can, do read T.H. White's "The Once and Future King".  It's a trilogy. The first formed the basis for Disney's "The Sword in the Stone". The trilogy was the foundation for the play Camelot. Wonderful as both those are, the book outshines them both.



Hi skip.knox. Oh dear, I think I misread your advice and, last night, finished watching Disney's " Sword in the Stone", thinking I was doing research! 

Fortunately, I like cartoons and musicals! 

I want to read the book now to find out how accurate the cartoon is!


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