# Creating a truly Vegan society.



## DTowne (Nov 23, 2012)

Hi, I just recently discovered this site whilst doing research for a novel I'm trying to write. I was encouraged by the amount of help everyone gives on here, enough so that I had to sign up. 

My question/problem for everyone is this:

I've always had in my head the idea of creating a truly vegan society in which animals are in no way used for anything, not food, not clothing, not even as beasts of burden or pet. No demestication of any sort. (Rather than jails crimes big and small are worked off like community service. The worst offenders subjected to a life as a 'Man of burden' tentatively called a Deacon. 

I have a lot of it worked out to the best of my knowledge, but any questions, criticisms, sugguestions as to what technologies could or could not reasonably work and why would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance. 


NOTE: These people are not human but a feline/alpaca inspired humanoid race.


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## Chilari (Nov 23, 2012)

Honey.

Unless your society can reliably grow and process either sugar beet or sugar cane (which depending on the level of technology could take a lot of manpower), honey is likely to be the only sweetener available. And depending on the medical advancement of the society, it's most likely the best means of treating burns. So either your characters have no concept of pudding, not to mention no mead and probably not much else in the way of alcohol (which requires sugars to ferment; while things like grapes and hops do contain natural sugars, these drink will be rather bitter without added sugars - even the Greeks added honey to their wine sometimes), or they need to get honey by some means. There are two way of doing that. Killing a hive and taking the honey, or keeping bees in a hive specially made for the purpose of harvesting honey without killing the bees (though some methods use smoke to subdue them).

Furthermore, bees were often essential to the fertilisation of crops. In the modern world, bees fertilise about a third of all UK crops; in the ancient world it's harder to know the proportions, but tenants on the Imperial Roman Estates in north Africa were encouraged to keep bees and grow bee-friendly crops (through these things being taxed at a much lower level than the three main crops, wheat, grapes and olives) probably because it meant larger harvests of everything else and thus the part which the state took in payment/rent, one third of those three main crops, was increased.

So if you're going full vegan and not using bees, you've got the problem of lower crop yields, and thus a smaller population that can be supported on a given area of land; no sweeteners unless you use crops that weren't widely used on earth until the last two centuries; inferior means of treating burns (seriously, a study I read published in the 1970s found honey to be really good at treating mild to moderate burns, even comparable to what was available at that time).

Secondly, ploughing. Oxen and horses have been used for ploughing for millennia. They're stronger than humans so can plough tougher land more quickly. Humans can plough, sure - those that couldn't afford to keep oxen or horses certainly would have had to - but this limits the amount of food that can be produced per person, and thus reduces the total surplus of crops produced. At sustenance level - where the total population is capable of producing exactly as much food as they need to eat - everyone is a farmer. The greater the crop yield per person, the greater the surplus, and the more people can be dedicated to other tasks, thus you get blacksmiths, potters, weavers, traders, carpenters and so on, and ultimately the ability to have standing armies (as opposed to seasonal armies who are farmers when the fields need attention and fighters the rest of the time), kings, tax collectors, ship builders and crews, etc.

Thus not using animals limits the food surplus, and thus limits society's ability to develop variety, wealth and complex politics. Because surplus means you've got something to trade (ie food), and people available to engage in mining or production to get other things to trade (eg metal, tools and utensils, pots, artworks, jewellery, and so on). The more surplus, the more wealth, the more people engaged in non-farming activities, and thus the more complex the society - and potentially, the more impressive the architecture. I would find it very hard to believe that a society that didn't use oxen or horses for ploughing could produce enough surplus for, say, a standing army, a massive palace and a city wall (or for that matter a city in the first place, since cities are largely populated by non-farmers).

To combat this, you would need some sort of technological advance. Iron tipped ploughs, for example, are more efficient than plain wooden ones. Water mills for grinding the grain into flour cuts down on the manpower needed for that task (in fact it's thought the rotary grinding system which replaced plain back and forth grinding probably cut the time it took to grind grain into flour in half, long before this got water-powered and cut the manpower, or more likely womanpower, by a huge percentage).

It'll be interesting to see how you handle this as I've never seen anything like it before.


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## DTowne (Nov 23, 2012)

Wow, that was very detailed and informative. Something I hadn't really thought about. Thank you. I did know a little about honey as the Ancient Egyptians used it along with moldy bread as a type of first aid on wounds.*

I had already planned on having low populations throughout the continent, only two million or so people total across six or seven nations. Two of which are semi-nomadic (for religious reasons) and don't build permanent structures. They're something of a gatherer society.

I do have a third society I call the Shekinah, Matrilineal family clans living on lakes, rivers, or sea shores on floating homes made from reed boats with soil atop them which suprisingly enough with minimal working can grow a surplus. The idea is partly based on the floating farms of the Aztecs, chinampa's I believe they were called. That and egyptian reed boats that are supposedly able to hold atleast 40 tons.

It's the individual city-states that I could see the problems you pointed out to me. Being that they are mountainous I'm thinking rice will for sure be a staple food with miles of terraced paddies.*

Water mills and the like will definitely be used and the iron tipped ploughs you mentioned. There's a lot of bogland to the south so bog iron will be common as well from some mining by the Deacons I mentioned.*


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## TWErvin2 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am guessing this is in a fantasy setting...

What would stop societies/cultures that do use animals, as beasts of burden, for food, leather, etc., from conquering the vegan societies? Warriors and scouts on horseback would have a great advantage over those not. Using hounds for tracking and as supplements to guards, would give them an advantage...the list could go on and on. 

The societies not restricted from animal use would be better supplied with food and materials, and presumably wealth, and in a better position than the vegan societies.

Vegan societies would be greatly restricted as to where they could live/survive. Many human cultures congregated around oceans and rivers and lakes, not only for travel but a food source. If one cannot supplement food grown with fish, clams, and other water borne creatures, for example, the only places they could survive is where the soil and landscape is very fertile and productive. Vegan cultures would be even more susceptible to natural disasters, such as a drought, than cultures that could supplement food sources with those from rivers, lakes and oceans.

What competitive advantages would the vegan socieites have to counter the competiting societies' advantages?


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## A. E. Lowan (Nov 23, 2012)

Another thing to keep in mind is developing a rich source of protein.  The major evolutionary factor contributing to brain development in homo sapiens was the advent of controlled fire, enabling us to cook and consume animal protein.  In other words, being omnivores who consumed animal protein built our big brains.  Consumption of animal protein is also believed to be the reason behind the statistically more complex intelligence and social structures in predatory mammals versus herbivores - elephants being a notable exception, and evelutionarily speaking elephants had not always been herbivores.  Your society will have to have an alternate protein source available for them to have developed sentience.  Also, you noted that your people are feline/alpaca inspired.  Keep in mind that felines are primarily carnivores, and in fact get most of their vegetation in their diets through the consumption of plant eaters.  Having a vegan felinid may take considerable explanation from a biological standpoint.

Maybe your society has not always been vegan?


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## SeverinR (Nov 23, 2012)

Nomadic vegans?
Would have to live off of foraged plants or trade something to the non-nomadic clans. Would be definately trusting God to keep them fed.
Much easier to catch the wild animals fleeing the hunter then to find the hidden non-moving food plants in the vast array of non-edible plants.

I would say these nomad clans would be very small compared to farmer clans.

I have walked(on foot and on horse) many national parks, edible plants are not frequent in our world.  Of course, they might be able to eat more plants then we would even think about.

One problem, when no one hunts animals, they tend to over populate. So if your inteligent life doesn't kill and eat, something else will have too. 
Humans have killed alot of the natural hunters, so if man doesn't hunt, the animals would overwhelm their land and will starve.

Circle of life:
plants grow good--> plant eaters grow in plenty--> meat eaters grow in plenty--> natural waste increases--> plants fed.
If any part grows to large, they destroy the sections they depend on, and starve. 
Thus if your "people" eat plants, then plant eaters will be affected, and meat eaters will tend to view the "people" as food, less non-inteligent planter eaters, so they must eat "people".

Maybe have some non vegan people to offer a balance "out". (one clan of meat eaters wouldn't be enough, but it would be an easy answer to how the world balances)


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## Penpilot (Nov 23, 2012)

I'll agree with everything that's said above. 

I'm not an expert so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.

Humans are omnivores. There are certain nutrients we can only derived from eating animals. Vegans in our society have to take supplements to fill in those missing nutrients otherwise bad stuff happens. Humans are designed to eat meat and plants, but I think you can get around that by making the "Humans" in your story genetically herbivores, but that means they'll need to eat lots of plants. I googled that cows need to eat 2-2.5% of their body weight in plant material per day, but may need to eat more depending on the quality of the plants. Here's the link How much grass does a cow eat per day 
I don't know if we can translate that to a human but it if we can that would mean a 200lb man would need to eat 5lbs of grass per day. Yum.

The big problem I thing you'll have to overcome is the no using animals as beasts of burden. Advancement of society is based on the use of beasts of burden. Check out this book called Guns Germs and Steal. http://www.amazon.ca/Guns-Germs-Steel-Jared-Diamond/dp/0393317552 It talks about how there's a correspondence in our world between the availability of beasts of burden, like the cow, allowed for the advancement of society. If I remember right, places like Asia and Europe that had large beast of burden like the cow advanced technically, while places that only had animals like the pig didn't advance and remained in a stone age like state. There's also a TV series by Discovery that's based on the book. 

The reason being is what Chilari said. It allowed for more food to be produced per acre and by fewer people. Those who didn't have to farm now could devote their time to developing technology for their society instead of farming for food. Better technology means better food production, so fewer and fewer people are needed to farm, and more and more people can devote their time to to other pursuits.


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## DTowne (Nov 23, 2012)

Yes, it will be based in a fantasy setting. *As to cultures that use animal products there are none. This race of people are herbivores, I guess would be better than saying Vegan.*

I see everyone bringing up population and livings conditions. The map I've drawn up contains many lakes and rivers as well as volcanoes which should give enough fertile land for 2 million or less over an entire continent. There are no major million plus people cities around.*

Aelowan-

As for your protein question vegetables, beans, grains, nuts, and seeds are all great sources of protein as well as some edible sea weeds I believe. From what my Vegan friend told me, she was able to meet nearly, if not all dietary needs without a single shred of animal product.

My mention of Feline inspired should have been clearer. Its mostly in appearence that the feline part comes in. Think, lion faced people. I liked the shape of the cheekbones and nose and mouth with its split down the center. I forget what it's called right now. Back along their evolutionary path they were in fact part of an ominvorous race, which you alluded to. This will come into play.

Severin -*

I can see the problem with a fully nomadic group. It would just be too tough. I was thinking something along the lines semi-nomadic people where clans have communal farms in which different clans work and defend them at varying times of year. The reason for the nomad aspect is a relgious belief that its wrong to build upon the earth mother. Same reason as my Shekinah do not live on land at all.

There are no humans in my story whatsoever. With their never hunting all the natural hunters would still be around, so I would hope that would solve the over population problem.
I am planning on using one group of the omnivorous race who have arrived as refugees from a previously unknown land. They are allowed their ways only within their borders, though that hasn't stopped illegal trade.*

Pen pilot -

You and Chilari are both right. Beasts of burden seems to be my biggest obstacle. I know I can only go so far with 'men of burden' and iron tipped blades and heavy use of water powered mills.

Thank you everyone who's posted you given me much to think about. Looking foward to hearing more on this subject and others in the future.*


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## SeverinR (Nov 29, 2012)

Semi-nomadic would also automatically fix the problem of field burnout.  They move their homes so the ground is always furtile.
So their efforts to grow food would be profitable most likely.  They could work that aspect into their worship. The group must move after __ years, if we stay longer God will punish us with less food.  or highlighting the positive, if we move every __ years, we will be blessed with a bountiful harvest.

They of course would have to grow a plant to clothe themselves. Cotton one example, since they won't use leather or wool.
There is only so much land to farm at a time, so cloth making plants would cut into food production, unless they can make clothes from natural plants.  Limited land, because they don't have the ability to clear feilds easily without machines or animals.


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## DTowne (Nov 29, 2012)

I like your religion around the harvest. As of right now I've only developed their religion in so far as the earth mother, maybe a sun and moon god, and cremation since burial would was just as imcomprehensible as building permanent homes.


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## Steerpike (Nov 29, 2012)

If you're worried about the effect of farming on fields, you can also look at the Inca and their precursors. I believe they were able to farm the same areas of land for centuries and avoid such problems. Modern-day farmers and scientists have studied how they did it.


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## DTowne (Nov 29, 2012)

I am using the floating farms used by the aztec (I think it was them) and surrounding cultures. I know nothing about the inca farming methods though. I'll have to check that out.


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## Saigonnus (Nov 29, 2012)

One would surmise they'd also potentially grow some things, like cuttings or herbs etc in clay pots so they could be portable when they have to move on, that way they wouldn't need to grow from a seed every time they pick a new spot. 

Another thing you could consider too is a semi-nomadic lifestyle, with a few semi-permanent settlements like the horselords of Rohan or Dothraki from ASOFAI. The majority of the population would be migratory, using the communities only as centers of trade, and for the protection such places would offer in the event of invasion. Maybe they also use it to obtain cuttings when passing through to a new place.


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## Zireael (Nov 30, 2012)

Growing stuff in clay pots and a nomadic lifestyle aren't bad ideas.

If the world is going to be fantasy, well, you can have plants fulfill all niches they need to. Want cotton as strong as leather? Here you are...


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## DTowne (Nov 30, 2012)

I'm going fantasy in setting only. No magic or the typical creatures. My worlds got a lot of touches of low-tech scifi and vampires (a biological vampiric race; not supernatural) I'm looking to create something almost realistic without use of supernatural means.


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## SeverinR (Dec 4, 2012)

Religious society tend to use good practice in conjunction with religion.
Most Christian sins avoided, are actually a way to live a healthy life.


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## Saigonnus (Dec 4, 2012)

Generally speaking, if you grow with a 4 plot rotation (3 plots always growing something, 1 fallow) the land gets a break and if you plant different things in different fields every year, you could easily avoid much of the vitamin deficiencies that inevitably comes from planting the same thing every year in the same plot. If you fertilize the fallow ground with manure or mulch, you can even restore it a bit as it rests. 

Anything is possible in a fantasy setting really, but I think even a vegen society would use animals in some fashion. Vegan is generally that they don't eat (consume) animal products or bi-products, but they'd probably still ride horses, use oxen/donkeys for labor; you'd almost have to to make it functional without having to employ magic. Maybe they consider the animals like family by the tenets of religion, burying them the same as the human members of the family.


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## Phietadix (Dec 4, 2012)

Most people are saying that the lack of animals to pull plow could be a problem. But since it has already been said that they aren't human (but more like alpcas or felines) then you could make them strong enough to effectivly pull plows themselves.


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## Phietadix (Dec 4, 2012)

Also with this being fantasy the problem with no honey or lack of bees fertilizing the plants. You could solve the no honey as sweetener with a new sweetener that your people has acces to. Replace bees with something already in the area. (It sounds like this culture wouldn't stop the bees from fertilizing crops) or remove they need entirly.


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## DTowne (Dec 4, 2012)

I read once that Felines can't actually taste sweets. I'm not sure how accurate that really is, but its still something I might use for my race. They will be stronger than humans, that's for sure. Also, most the plowing will be done by the Deacon (My debt slaves; criminal punishment) the work will be a bit of a punishment. I'm hoping that, along with low populations covers all bases.

I have considered the use of animals for labor but I always wondered if the concept of keeping animals would ever occur to people who have no other real use for them.


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## DTowne (Dec 4, 2012)

I'm also toying with the idea of people growing some of their own goods in personal gardens in the small villages or on rooftop gardens in the cities. I'm working out details now. Clay pots, like mentioned earlier and the four plot rotation are definitely factoring into this.


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## Phietadix (Dec 4, 2012)

DTowne said:


> I read once that Felines can't actually taste sweets. I'm not sure how accurate that really is, but its still something I might use for my race. They will be stronger than humans, that's for sure. Also, most the plowing will be done by the Deacon (My debt slaves; criminal punishment) the work will be a bit of a punishment. I'm hoping that, along with low populations covers all bases.
> 
> I have considered the use of animals for labor but I always wondered if the concept of keeping animals would ever occur to people who have no other real use for them.



How long is the deacon's sentence? Is it for life? Hours? Months? How common is it to become one? If it is uncommon and short sentence that could be a problem.


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## DTowne (Dec 5, 2012)

As of now I have no set periods. My basic idea is something like community service, depending on the nature of the crime. Minor crimes would involve street cleaning, picking up trash etc. Thievery, assault, adultery, and worse crimes would earn you work out in the fields for hard labor. The worst criminals like murderers, petafiles, rapists, and traitors would be sentenced to the mines, along with foreign enemies. The Ninkurrai do not believe in jails or taking prisoners though the mines are essentially a jail.

 I'm thinking there may have to be some lifelong deacon working the fields I just haven't come up with how that would work and what kind of criminal would be sentenced to that work.


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## Ireth (Dec 5, 2012)

Might I suggest a change to the word "deacon"? I think it has too much of a church-leader connotation to really make sense as a term for prisoners. It might confuse some people.

/2cents


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## Rullenzar (Dec 5, 2012)

From what I've read a lot of information holds true if his society was human. He did mention however that it was a feline humanoid. So as long as he makes it clear that all their required nutrients can come from plants and that's how they live he can make a pretty decent story. However, we haven't heard an idea or concept just a setting and eating habits.

I think it would be interesting seeing a city of traders an food merchants trying to sell off different types of plant life. Would be very interesting if done right.


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## Rullenzar (Dec 5, 2012)

More ideas:

On subject of bees/sugars. Whats to stop him from saying a made up plant provides the sugars they use for made up drinks?
Or, maybe sweet to their taste is really dull and dry to  humans taste. 
You have many good ideas to work with here and develop your world and im sure you will get more.

Anythings possible with solid research and imagination


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## DTowne (Dec 5, 2012)

Ireth said:


> Might I suggest a change to the word "deacon"? I think it has too much of a church-leader connotation to really make sense as a term for prisoners. It might confuse some people.
> 
> /2cents




Yeah, the church connotation is a bit of a problem. I was only using that word for its meaning, being servant. Arad is another word for them with the same meaning. I just didn't want to keep using foreign terms. I'm still looking for something better.


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## DTowne (Dec 5, 2012)

Rullenzar said:


> So as long as he makes it clear that all their required nutrients can come from plants and that's how they live he can make a pretty decent story. However, we haven't heard an idea or concept just a setting and eating habits.
> 
> I think it would be interesting seeing a city of traders an food merchants trying to sell off different types of plant life. Would be very interesting if done right.



The idea and concept was originally just to see if it could be done. I almost dated a vegan girl once and this all came from trying to get to know and understand her better now its become so much a part of the story I don't want to get rid of it.  

Basically, the story starts off with two of my main characters, Fen and Tully who are of a second related race of carnivores (They are obviously in a foreign land) breaking free from a ship. Tully, is covered head to toe in skins and weapons made with bone. (Think native american) They are fleeing trying to find safety. 

I get really interested in how different cultures interact and clash and really wanted to play with that right away. Her being a carnivore plays into part of her frenemies hatred of her among other things. Overall its not a direct plot point, this vegan-herbivoreness but it shapes the world and its people.


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## Saigonnus (Dec 5, 2012)

I shudder to imagine what would happen if a carnivore is shipwrecked or whatever in a place where only herbivores reside. There would obviously be animals to eat, ones that simply cohabitate with the people, but what would their reaction be to a creature that LOOKS like them that destroys and consumes the flesh of one of the animals. Would they think he's possessed by a demon and try to exorcise it? Would it be considered a crime within their lands and they'd end up in the mines or as a "field servant"?

I think if they study him/her they'd come to realize their teeth would be very different even if they are a similar creature. Vegetarians generally have flat teeth, like our molars and carnivores have sharp teeth like incisors. They may even wonder why they filed their teeth like that. XD.


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## Phietadix (Dec 5, 2012)

Vegetarians sometimes have sharp teeth too.


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## DTowne (Dec 5, 2012)

Sorry, I'm so used to knowing all the ideas myself I forget to inform everyone else here. In the area he shipwrecks there is one area that is a city, and vassal state, of ominvores. They are third generation descendants of refugees from a war in a foreign land. They number 50,000 at most and are allowed to practice their way of life within their walled borders, no further. So the herbivore/vegan societies do have some experience with carnivores. 

Should I ever be so lucky to get popular with this series All you said Saigonnus would come into play in one of my prewuel ideas. And yes, living their ways inside Ninkurrai borders is a punishable offense worthy of life as a field servant.


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## DTowne (Dec 8, 2012)

Penpilot said:


> The big problem I thing you'll have to overcome is the no using animals as beasts of burden. Advancement of society is based on the use of beasts of burden. Check out this book called Guns Germs and Steal. Guns, Germs, and Steel: Amazon.ca: Jared Diamond: Books It talks about how there's a correspondence in our world between the availability of beasts of burden, like the cow, allowed for the advancement of society.




Just started reading it now. I'm only about 125 ages in and I've already made some major changes. Thank you for the suggestion. It's helping immensely.


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