# Using Lord of the Rings



## King Raven Stark (Apr 29, 2012)

As a beginner in fantasy writing should I read J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. I know that is something all fantasy writers use so I was just wondering if its a good idea


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## Steerpike (Apr 29, 2012)

I think you are well advised to read as much as you can of what is doing well in the genre. Not just Tolkien, then, but a lot of others. I'd start with what is doing well, then move into classics.


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## King Raven Stark (Apr 29, 2012)

Ok Thanks man


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## Devor (Apr 29, 2012)

You absolutely need to read Tolkein, if only so you can better understand those elements when you see them used elsewhere.

The problem comes for writers who _only_ have read a handful of fantasy stories or games and struggle to break outside their small box.


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## shangrila (Apr 29, 2012)

You don't have to. Personally, I only got a few chapters in before putting the LOTR down. It was really outdated in my opinion, specifically his writing style. Watch the movies and you should be fine.


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## King Raven Stark (Apr 29, 2012)

Once again thanks guys. I have seen the movies but after doing a lot of research yesterday I found that the movies excluded the last battle between the hobbits and Sauron and books are always better than movies so I will read the book, don't want to but have to


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## Steerpike (Apr 29, 2012)

I think it is a good idea to read it. It's a good idea to know the cornerstones of the genre, even if you may not like them as much as new stuff. Just like a painter might study the masters even if she doesn't intend to use their style or their style is outdated. The problem with reading only what is currently popular is that those fads change. It's a good place to start, but ultimately you want a well-rounded view of things in my opinion. Tolkien, certainly. Maybe Dunsany if you want to take a step further back. Shelley's _Frankenstein_ is also a good choice, though many view it as a horror story, which it really isn't by today's standards. For Fantasy that falls between Tolkien and now, I'd look at works by Leiber, Moorcock, Gene Wolfe, LeGuin, maybe some early McKillip or Tanith Lee, and so on.


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## AlexanderKira (Apr 29, 2012)

Just throwing this out. You should definately read Kingkiller Chronicle by Patrick Rothfuss; Brandon Sanderson; Michael J Sullivan; of course A Song of Ice and Fire..really some of the popular fantasy out today and the. Best.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Apr 29, 2012)

I say you should certainly read it, I personally am used to reading that writing style, and absolutely love it.  Some people get so bogged down in the style they don't realise what a clever story it is.

It has of course over the years become used as the template for a lot of fantasy fiction, so one thing I would say is look at the world he has created, but look more at how he has created it.  Don't feel obliged to include elves and dwarves in your stories, because while Tolkien used a lot of things that had previously been used in the ancient myths, he also came up with a lot of cool and original ways of reinventing them.  So feel free to play around with what has gone before but don't let that cloud your artistic mind.  

After you've read the Rings and if you can comfortably read his work, I recommend the Silmarillion.  I'm reading it at the moment, and to me as a world-builder its interesting because it goes right back to the creation of Middle Earth, the gods, and into the early days of the first age.


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## ThinkerX (Apr 29, 2012)

Recommended List of Oldies:

'Lord of the Rings' - say what you will, Tolkien did yank entire races and concepts out of mythology and structure them into a more readable format.  This is a big fantasy building block/

'EarthSea' by LeGuin - this much shorter trilogy (with a new book recently added) is another cornerstone, particularly where magic is concerned.   The ethos of the mages involved is interesting, though at odds with the way much of present day fantasy is oriented (wealth and personal power are way, way down on their priority list, but they do face other issues).

Lovecrafts stories (great many short stories, a novel or three, and upwards of a score of successors).  Lovecraft introduced the concept of utterly alien things, some powerful enough to be regarded as Gods, interfering with various degrees of incomprehensible malice in the world.  His mostly academic type characters typically stopped or delayed these creatures at the expense of life or personal sanity.

'Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser' by Lieber.  Old line pulp action stories featuring a barbarian warrior and city thief who roam about battling horrid things, chasing exotic women, and looting everything they can - but who then have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

'Dying Earth' stories by Vance.  Introduced something very much like present day 'game magic' and a whole slew of magical devices, as well as archetype wizard and thief characters.

'Magician' series (first four books) by Fiest.  In a way, a sort of updated version of Tolkien, though still original enough.


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## King Raven Stark (Apr 29, 2012)

Thank you thank you You see I've been using George R.R. Martin for awhile because he is the reason I chose to do this genre I wasn't born into it like an average teenager I'm only 22, so you see i'm a late student. I do wanna read Sanderson's A Way of Kings I think it is and there are others I'm looking into right now I have a  list. Martin what I like about him is he uses a simple world like its divided into north, west, south etc, each has a ruling great house, basically i like everything from him


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## ThinkerX (Apr 29, 2012)

A word of caution:  George Martin is one of the few remaining actual 'giants' in the genre, plus he had a long track record as a script writer for television.  Even so, he had to put a lot of thought - literally years worth - into developing his world and its peoples before starting writing. (one of the big questions he fessed up to debating for a long while in the prep stages was whether his world had 'no magic' or 'just a little magic').  Even with all that, even with him *knowing* where the story is supposed to go and what the major elements are, he has more than once worked himself into major plot problems he spent quite a while working out solutions too (initially, for example, there was supposed to be a five year gap between books three and four - but other plot action didn't allow for that.  Later, there was what he called the 'Mereneese Knot', which he solved by introducing additional POV's)

Additionally, most of the actual giants in fantasy - including pretty much all of the people I named earlier - were well read in a variety of literature.  Tolkien was a professor, and if memory serves LeGuin had a fair reputation in Anthropology.


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## Shockley (Apr 30, 2012)

Definitely read it, but you shouldn't just tackle Tolkien. I'd say that Lewis had an even bigger influence on my own writing than Tolkien.


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## The Dark One (Apr 30, 2012)

You must read Tolkien. It is too huge a fantasy watershed to ignore.

When I saw the name of this thread, I wondered if others were doing what I have done - ie, regularly reference Tolkien. In one (non-fantasy) book I have a character who occasionally makes humorous Tolkien analogies. Another (speculative fiction) book - just published - is to some extent a parody of the sacred quest in which Tolkien comes in for a playful kicking.

Learn the genre, then subvert it.


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## gavintonks (Apr 30, 2012)

I do not think you read Tolkien to use his methodology, but it is advisable to know why people have sold so many books. the same goes for Rawlings unless you wish to be satisfied with selling only  a few hundred copies.
There are many other authors who you should read as an understanding to your genre, but you also need to know if you are creating a copy cat author or a unique voice. There are many authors who make a good living with similar stores.
Knowledge is a powerful thing and the more you learn, the closer you can get to be succesful


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## zizban (Apr 30, 2012)

Minor the correction: The movie omitted the final battle between Saruman and the Hobbits, not Sauron.


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## SeverinR (Apr 30, 2012)

I think you should read various styles of fantasy writing. Tolken is one style.
I think reading authors that write in your style will help more then just reading the "classics."
Reading Tolken will broaden your outlook, but I don't think there is any one writer or book that should be read as a rule.

I loved Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser.

I am not an author that likes epic or world changing books. I think epics are good, but they become to predictable. They triumph and the world is saved until the next megalord comes along to try and destroy it, or they fail and the world is forever changed or destroyed. And the megalord is always pitted against some commoner swan hidden as an ugly duckling.

Epics are one part of Fantasy. Heros sitting around waiting for a leader to attempt world domination have to do something.


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## Steerpike (Apr 30, 2012)

One thing that has been hinted at above, and that bears mentioning again, is that you should also be well-read outside of your genre. If you're only reading within one genre, you are severely limiting your development as a writer, imo.


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## ScipioSmith (Apr 30, 2012)

IMHO, in order to write well in a genre you need to familiar with and respectful of the genre- otherwise you end up spewing cliches while all the while labouring under delusions of your own originality (a failing I myself drank deep of in my youth). You should read Tolkien because, not only is he one of the biggest beasts in the fantastic forest but he's also not a bad storyteller.


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## Kenneth Logan Jr. (Apr 30, 2012)

It is essential to read him, that's why I wanted to write fantasy because of him. I do agree that the first part in Fellowship of the Ring is a bit of a drag. I suggest getting the audiobooks of the trilogy or do the next best thing and listen to the excellent BBC radio version of LOTR and they have Frodo being voiced by Ian Holm who played Bilbo in the Jackson film version. I REALLY recommend you get into Tolkien to know who he conducted fantasy. George Lucas even said that LOTR was a big influence when writing Star Wars.

And to show you how important LOTR is, read this article:
Star Wars Origins - The Lord of the Rings


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## Shockley (Apr 30, 2012)

I'll differentiate from people and say that you don't *have* to read Tolkien. You should, because it's great fiction, but you should read whatever and whenever you can.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Apr 30, 2012)

In the books there's tons of events and even characters who never made it to the screen, thats another interesting thing.  While they wouldn't have been necersarry to the film story, in the book they work wonders to provide depth and character to his world.  Take Tom Bombadil for instance (also isn't that a genius name) while he only plays a small role in terms of plot he adds a wonderful dash of colour to the cast.  He's a cheerful guy who lives in a forest with his wife who he always sings about, and is as old as time itself, to such an extent that the ring has no effect on him.


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## Justme (Apr 30, 2012)

zizban said:


> Minor the correction: The movie omitted the final battle between Saruman and the Hobbits, not Sauron.



They also missed Tom Bombadil and the Barrow Wraths.

P.S. If you really want to get aquainted with The Lord of the Rings, you should read The Silmerilian.


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## The Dark One (May 1, 2012)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> In the books there's tons of events and even characters who never made it to the screen, thats another interesting thing.  While they wouldn't have been necersarry to the film story, in the book they work wonders to provide depth and character to his world.  Take Tom Bombadil for instance (also isn't that a genius name) while he only plays a small role in terms of plot he adds a wonderful dash of colour to the cast.  He's a cheerful guy who lives in a forest with his wife who he always sings about, and is as old as time itself, to such an extent that the ring has no effect on him.



You know what? There are probably no bigger LOTR fans on this planet than me, but Bombadil is by miles my least favourite character. I think he sticks out like dog's balls as something which should either have been properly developed or edited out of the story. That's what happens when you publish serially.

I think it's Tolkien inserting himself into the story and it simply doesn't work. Why have such a powerful character if he's to have no impact on the resolution?


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## Justme (May 1, 2012)

The Dark One said:


> You know what? There are probably no bigger LOTR fans on this planet than me, but Bombadil is by miles my least favourite character. I think he sticks out like dog's balls as something which should either have been properly developed or edited out of the story. That's what happens when you publish serially.
> 
> I think it's Tolkien inserting himself into the story and it simply doesn't work. Why have such a powerful character if he's to have no impact on the resolution?



As i remember, didn't Bombadil save the party from certain death  from a barrow wright. I think he inserted him in as one who like Gandalf, was a caretaker of the world, but concentrated on the natural world, instead of the dealings of men. 

From what i picked up in the Silmarillion, Gandalf and I'm certain Bombadil were equal to angels in Christianity for the MiddelEarth world. If you read back, when Faramirs company feel upon the trio, I think Samwise made reference to the gods set up in the Silmarillion, at that time.

The one thing that pissed me off, in the film was the falling out between Frodo and Samwise on the sides of Mt. Doom. That was entirely unnecessary and  had no place what-so-ever in the story.


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## SeverinR (May 1, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> One thing that has been hinted at above, and that bears mentioning again, is that you should also be well-read outside of your genre. If you're only reading within one genre, you are severely limiting your development as a writer, imo.



Reading outside your genre will give ideas on how to expand your genre, or write about something that hasn't been written about, or hasn't been written the same way.

To me reading LOTR is about the same as reading "those" books in school, catcher in the rye, the great gatsby, and all the other boring reads that educators feel are "must reads."  Try it, if you like it, read it. If it doesn't keep your interest find another author that does.
(I only made it to chapter two in LOTR)


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## JBryden88 (May 1, 2012)

Lord of the Rings - Obvious choice, it's a classic.

Any of Robert E. Howard's stories regarding Conan the Cimmerian or Kull the Conqueror - The father of sword and sorcery is a classic.

George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire - Heavy Reading, but it is not your typical fantasy, and not for kids.

The Witcher Saga - Only one book in the series, as well as the anthology collection of short stories are translated for the US, but its a great model of how you can take traditional high fantasy, and make a tongue in cheek parody yet keep the tone dark, serious, and pretty damn intense. (by parody I mean, it flies in the face of the rules for elves and dwarves and magic.)


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## Steerpike (May 1, 2012)

I liked the inclusion of Tom Bombadil in LOTR.

I also second the recommendation of Robert E. Howard. There's a gap that should be filled between something like LOTR and newer series like SoIaF (a gap in time, I mean). Lots of classic reads in the interim.

Jack Vance's Dying Earth books have been mentioned.

Also look at Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series (four books in the original series, each a major award-winner in the year of its release). Great stuff.

Read Glen Cook's Black Company books.

Read Mervyn Peak's Gormenghast books.

Read Roger Zelazny's Amber books.

We've already mentioned Moorcock's Elric books. Also, read Steven Brust. Emma Bull. Robert Holdstock (particularly his Mythago books), Charles deLint, anything you can get a hold of by Guy Gavriel Kay (who may be the best writer in the genre right now), read Stephen Donaldson (which you will love or hate),

Read C.S. Lewis. 
Read The Princess Bride.
Read Watchmen.
Read The Stand.
Read The Mists of Avalon.
Read Stardust.
Read The Last Unicorn.
Read Angela Carter's short stories (Burning your Boats).
Read China Mieville.

And when you look at science fiction-style stories that include many elements of fantasy, you open the door to many more excellent works. But the above, and everything else mentioned in this thread, will give you an excellent cross-section of the genre.


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## Shockley (May 1, 2012)

Here's my suggested reading list. It's not entirely traditional fantasy and it's not all good writing, but it brought me to this point. I'm leaving out a lot of my other loves (Hemingway, Salinger, etc.) simply because I don't think they're necessary to writing good fantasy.

 Bernard Cornwell: The Winter King, Enemy of God, Excalibur, Last Kingdom, Pale Horseman and the Archer's Tale
 Thomas Malory: Le Morte d'Arthur 
 J. R. R. Tolkien: The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings 
 C. S. Lewis: The Chronicles of Narnia
 Brian Jacques: Redwall and Mossflower
 Glen Cook: The Black Company, Shadows Linger and The White Rose
 William Morris: The Well at the World's End, Roots of the Mountain, the Wood Beyond the World and House of the Wolfings
 Lord Dunsany: The King of Elfland's Daughter, 51 Tales and the Gods of Pegana
 Terry Pratchett: Colour of Magic, Guards Guards! and Hogfather (but anything you can get your hands on, really)
 H. P. Lovecraft: Shadows Over Innsmouth, The Color Out of Space, Call of Cthulu, At the Mountains of Madness, and the Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath (but again, anything you can grab)
 Robert E. Howard: Queen of the Black Coast, The Phoenix on the Sword, The Hour of the Dragon, El Borak and any of his numerous short story collections.
Isaac Asimov: Foundation, Foundation and Empire and Second Foundation

 If you can ever find it, I suggest picking up two specific anthologies: L. Sprage de Camp's 'Swords and Sorcery' which has stories by Lovecraft, Howard, Lord Dunsany (none that I suggested, but just as good), and a number of other very good pulp writers. The second is called 'Legends,' edited by Robert Silverberg. It has material by Stephen King, Jordan, Goodkind, McCaffrey and Orson Scott Card. Good stuff, though I have to admit I'm not a huge fan of any of those writers.


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## Anders Ã„mting (May 1, 2012)

King Raven Stark said:


> As a beginner in fantasy writing should I read J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. I know that is something all fantasy writers use so I was just wondering if its a good idea



It's not a _bad _idea, but it's not something you have to do. Nor is it necessarily good for you.

Stephen King once said that after he read Lord of the Rings, he instantly wanted to write his great fantasy epic. But he didn't, because he actually understood that if he tried to do that right after reading Lord of the Rings, he would actually be writing _JRR Tolkien's_ great fantasy epic. It wasn't until many years later his own idea finally materialised out of a movie screen showing Sergio Leone westerns. The result was The Dark Tower, which as far as I can tell has very little in common with Lord of the Rings.

Let's be honest here: Lord of the Rings was never actually supposed to be the archetype for all fantasy. Tolkien just wanted to create his own mythology, but he was so ahead of his time that nobody knew what else to do but to copy him. Today fantasy writers have finally started to realize that fantasy is whatever they want it to be - that it doesn't have to be elves and dwarves and orcs all around. So I think going back to Tolkien in order to learn how to write fantasy is a kinda backwards mentality. It's been almost sixty years, I'd like to think we've made _some _progress in that time.

Me, I only read Fellowship of the Ring and half of The Two Towers and thought the whole thing was really kinda dull. It wasn't until the movies came out I could actually follow through the entire plot. There are a lot of fantasy books that have had a way, way, way greater influence on me. Heck, the Wizard of Oz had a greater influence on me then Lord of the Rings.

What I mean is, reading it won't do any harm, but it won't be _essential _to your development as a writer or anything. You can manage without it, but go ahead and check it out if you want. But then you should also check out some of the other books mentioned in this thread, if only to remind you there is more to fantasy then just Tolkien.

If you want my personal recommendations, you should read the Chronicles of Amber by Roger Zelazny, the Cygnet books by Patricia A McKillip, The Neverending Story by Michael Ende, Ananzi Boys by Niel Gaiman, Clive Barker's Abarat books... basically anything that _isn't_ like Tolkien.


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## Devora (May 1, 2012)

I personally got most of my influence from watching movies (e.g. Dark Crystal, LOTR), and playing video games (e.g. Diablo, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance) that had fantasy themes and elements to the story before I stumbled upon reading fantasy stories.


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## Aidan of the tavern (May 1, 2012)

Christopher Mahaney said:


> I personally got most of my influence from watching movies (e.g. Dark Crystal, LOTR), and playing video games (e.g. Diablo, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance) that had fantasy themes and elements to the story before I stumbled upon reading fantasy stories.



I loved Dark Alliance, it was a fantastic game, I was so annoyed when they didn't make the 3rd one.


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## Saigonnus (May 1, 2012)

I think reading anything at all could help you learn how to improve your writing. Don't only consider "fantasy" novels as part of your reading, other genres can be just as useful for plot devices; take science fiction for example; what is future technology? It's "magic" we haven't discovered yet. Most things possible in science fiction would technically be possible using "magic" instead of technology and it would be fairly easy to take a scenario found in Sci-fi and convert it to fantasy. 

Starship Troopers (awful movie by the way) has the basic scenario of space marines that go to a planet to fight these giant bugs... what if the main characters were warriors or wizards with swords or magic instead of guns and used a form of teleportation to get to this other planet? could work right? 

I guess what I am saying is that there are things in every genre of literature that can help you write better and you should take advantage.


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## Shockley (May 1, 2012)

I hated Dark Alliance, basically because I was hoping for something on the level of Baldur's Gate and SoA. Didn't even come close to competing.


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## shangrila (May 2, 2012)

I got a ton of inspiration from Dark Souls. The story is kind of meh, but the art direction is breathtaking. It's really cool if you're into to black/grey worlds.

Also, I'd add Joe Abercrombie and Steven Erikson to those must read lists. Erikson because of the enormousness of the Malazan world (even if the ending sucked, IMO) and Joe because of the utter grit and realism in his stories. I will say though that the Malazan series (or the main one) is ten, "door stopper" books long, so if you're going to do it prepare to spend a couple months reading nothing else.


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## Steerpike (May 2, 2012)

I read the Malazan series, but I intersperse each one with a number of other books. So it's going to take me a while to finish.

Abercrombie is great. Best Served Cold is his best, imo


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## SeverinR (May 2, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> I
> Read The Princess Bride.


Read! The Princess Bride? Inconceivable!
Sorry, it had to be said. 

I avoided Dragon riders of Pern because I thought it was Sci-fi. The McCaffrey's write pretty well from what I have read...so far.


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## Ireth (May 2, 2012)

Gregory Maguire's _Wicked_ and its sequels are pretty good dark fantasy, if you can get past all the gratuitous sex scenes. They have a very political bent to them, though, which I find kind of odd.


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## shangrila (May 3, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> I read the Malazan series, but I intersperse each one with a number of other books. So it's going to take me a while to finish.


I tried that, but everytime someone used magic in one of the other books I couldn't help but wonder which Warren they were drawing it from.


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