# Do these Kingdoms sound original and whats your opinion on them?



## MaccosBridgman (May 28, 2013)

These are the three independent kingdoms in my fantasy continent of Aeterna (about the size of Australia) formerly the continent of Atlantis, if you look at my first thread its give a brief history and description of Aeterna. 

Anyways the three independent kingdoms are Natas, Pentos and Avalar, so here they are:

Kingdom of Natas
The Kingdom of Natas, is a dry arid kingdom and heavily requires on trade with other nations to feed it’s albeit small population, and hence has a strong alliance with the Six Kingdoms to keep its population fed. The Kingdom is known for having the largest metal mineral deposits in all of Aeterna and this forms the kingdoms entire economy, the two largest mines being concentrated at the capital of Redwall and the kingdom’s only other city Union City. Redwall so named for the massive red walls that surround the city and Union City so named for the first ever miners’ union being formed there, are the only two large population centres in the entire kingdom and are only linked by a solitary railway that allows for the transportation of the minerals from Union City to Redwall were they are then sent by rail to the port-town of Clifton (so named for being on high cliffs) were the minerals are placed on trading ships and sent to their respective destinations. The rest of Natas is composed of mining villages centred on mines. The kingdom is poor as while it has the biggest metal mineral deposits, the metals are still cheap to buy and occasionally the kingdom has to take a loan from one of the city states banks and then be bailed out by the Six Kingdoms. The kingdom is under the rule of the House of Vandolay who reside in Great Forge Hall in Redwall. The only other notable noble family in Natas is the Rodericks of Union City who hold the position of Lord Mayor of Union City, the same title for Redwall is held by the heir apparent to the throne. The only other noble family is Tarrings of Clifton who reside in a mouldy old manor outside the town, where as the Rodericks are richer than the Vandolays due to their private ownership of a number of mines in and outside the country. There are worries in the court of Forge Hall that the Rodericks could rebel and take with them Union City and therefore half of Natas’s resources, population and army. As well there is the rising the Miners Union that want to see an elected governing body for the kingdom after hearing the political teachings of the city state of Haran and others as well as hearing of human democracy, recent strikes have shown the power of the Union. The current monarch of Natas is Henry XI who is seen as a drunk womaniser and is often incompetent in politics, with the day to day running of the kingdom being done by his son Prince Ellorick heir to the throne and Lord Mayor of Redwall. The primary terrain of Natas is mountains and small dusty plains with small amounts of plants and animals. 

Grand Kingdom of Pentos
The Grand Kingdom of Pentos is the opposite of Natas with a wide range of plentiful resources and is known as the forest kingdom for the huge forests that dominate the country with huge evergreens and an abundance of wildlife and plants. It has a fairly evenly distributed population, with many commonfolk farming the fertile land along the coast and the mountain families in the north who live in lumber communities. Much like metal dominates the economy of Natas lumber dominates the economy of Pentos but with other resources such as crops and vineyards from which the famous Pentos wines are made, as well as a spice trade in return for lumber with two city-state with contracts not set to end any time soon, making Pentos a wealthy and powerful kingdom which does not shy away in the shadow of the Six Kingdoms like Natas. The capital of Pentos is the Augustine a small city on the coast famous for its wines and bright pink stone from which many of the buildings are built, the other major population centres of Pentos are the coastal cities of Carolina and Charleston and the only other large population centre being the mountain town of Lumberton. Pentos’s cities are small though none having a population over 250,000 whereas Redwall and Union City have a population of roughly 500,000 each. The kingdom is under the rule of the House of Laurent who reside in the Savoy Palazzo in Augustine as well as keeping a residence in the northern forests near Lumberton called Laurent Castle. The Laurent’s are a wealthy royal house and have married into the House of Desrosier and numerous other noble families giving them much influence. Like the Six Kingdoms there is a Protector of the Realm (Prime Minister equivalent) which is hereditary (like in the Six Kingdoms) under the noble House of Black. The people of Pentos are a peaceful content people but if they their kingdom is threatened they will raise arms and fight to the death their loyalty ever to king and country. The current monarch of Pentos is Caspian IV who is considered kind and just by his people, he is the father of the former Queen Aurora of the Six Kingdoms and henceforth the great-grandfather of Odette Ravenscroft officially Princess Odette Desrosier of the Six Kingdoms rightful Queen and Protector of the Fae. There are many old noble families in Pentos and the aristocratic society is very strict and formal as well as glamorous and ostentatious. The Grand Kingdom of Pentos looks down on the Kingdom of Natas and with good reason as the Miners Union are trying to corrupt the mountain men against the government in Augustine but so far to no avail.

Kingdom of Avalar 
The Kingdom of Avalar is a large kingdom is the north of Aeterna and is renowned for its luxury goods which are sold throughout Aeterna this being due to the use of slavery throughout the country as thousands of men, women and children are forced to produce the goods that make Avalar so well known throughout Aeterna. The slaves are the descendants of former Pagan worshipping Fae who were forced into slavery four hundred years ago, and numbers are kept up by forced ‘breeding’ with the average woman forced to have at least ten children in her lifetime. While other countries look the other way there are also sympathisers from all over Aeterna including certain citizens and even members of the court in Avalar itself. With its slave based economy Avalar is a wealthy kingdom with many more wealthy citizens due to owning slaves than other nations. The commonfolk in general in Avalar are better off as the worst jobs go to the slaves. As well compared to other kingdoms were the more land you own the more powerful you are in Avalar the more slaves you own the more powerful you are, this resulted in the commonfolk being able to buy 40 acres of land from the noble class after working for them for ten years resulting in more commonfolk land owners than any other kingdom. The population in Avalar is oddly distributed due to slavery, the capital is Hull with other major population centres being Northpass and Wintervale. Slaves live separately to the free citizens of Avalar living in Bound Towns owned and run by the Slave owners, many slaves will be born and die in these horrid lifeless places some never having seen the sun, sat there constantly producing the goods that make Avalar so wealthy. Avalar is ruled by the House of Barraton who themselves are slave owners the same as every other noble family in Avalar. In general Avalar is a cold and wet country and known for its swamps and bayous were many runaway slaves live in hiding, these regions of Avalar are lawless and there are rumours of a new source of magic in these bayous, magic that could overthrow the slave owners, but the nobles aren’t too worried about these rumours at all, just concerned with sales and sales to the rest of Aeterna of their quality goods. The current monarch of Avalar is Esmeralda the third successive woman to rule the country. Many say that women from Avalar are more competent than the men. Avalar also has a good slave trade with a number of the city states and is thinking of maybe expanding slavery not only to the mass production of goods but also to farming effectively eliminating the use of the commonfolk and making the slave owners the wealthiest and therefore most powerful people in Aeterna, putting Avalar on equal footing with the Six Kingdoms in the south. But the one problem is the Brotherhood of Freedom led by a number of the commonfolk who want the noble class overthrown and slavery abolished and an elected governing body formed this movement is supported by the Miners Union in Natas, but the Brotherhood is heavily repressed by the military but still more join their ranks as the commonfolks livelihoods and lives are put at risk due to the greediness of the slave owners. Is Avalar a ticking time bomb?


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## Ciloth (May 28, 2013)

Well, the city Redwall shares its name with the Redwall Abbey in the Redwall series by Brian Jacques. They both have walls of some red material. You might want to reconsider that city. 

Pentos sounds really good and I don't see any major similarities.

Avalar's name seems similar to Avalon, the island where King Arthur sails off too. That could just be though and the way I pronounce things though. Otherwise, it's good.


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## MaccosBridgman (May 28, 2013)

Thanks I thought Redwall fit well  it does not have to be competely orginial though and Avalar is what i got from Avalon


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## ThinkerX (May 28, 2013)

'Pentos' is the name of a city state in GRRM's 'Game of Thrones'.


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## MaccosBridgman (May 29, 2013)

Yes i do know this, being a fan of Game of Thrones


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## Bpeter (May 29, 2013)

I wouldn't use Pentos, It's been used before.
Using the same names for characters is ok but I would avoid using the same names for places, especially if it's going to play a major role in your story.


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## Mythopoet (May 30, 2013)

Knowingly using proper nouns from someone else's intellectual property is definitely plagiarism. I'd advise you to change Pentos.


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## MaccosBridgman (May 30, 2013)

What if I change it to Pentros??


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## Varamyrr (May 31, 2013)

MaccosBridgman said:


> What if I change it to Pentros??


Then the first that'll pop in my head will be: 'sounds like Pentos from GoT'


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## MaccosBridgman (May 31, 2013)

Thanks for the advice so the Grand Kingdom shall require a new name, any ideas ??


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## WeilderOfTheMonkeyBlade (Jun 3, 2013)

Please put Redwall in, complete with fluffy squirrels and Otters. 
For the grand kingdom, you could try Pebantros- it still sounds the same, but isn't that much like Pentos- if you get my meaning........


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## senseiseth (Sep 15, 2013)

I'd try something Pentallos. Keeps the flavor, but avoids the reuse of the name.


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## DassaultMirage (Sep 16, 2013)

It's just me and I repeat it's just me, but the first thing I solidify before making a nation or an island or a country.... is the water source. All great civilizations have em.


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## Edankyn (Sep 17, 2013)

Mythopoet said:


> Knowingly using proper nouns from someone else's intellectual property is definitely plagiarism.


 This is false. Representing someone else's _thoughts, ideas, or expressions_ as your own is what defines plagiarism. Proper nouns do not by their nature constitute anything that can be taken as plagiarism. Now if MaccosBridgman modeled the city of Pentos in his story after the city of Pentos in Martin's work, without giving credit to Martin for the idea, that could be construed as plagiarism. What you may be referencing is trademark infringement. If Martin trademarked the name Pentos, then using it could be construed as trademark infringement; however, that is not the case in this situation. 

That being said I'm inclined to agree with many of the others here that using that city name, especially since GoT has achieved such widespread popularity among fiction readers, is probably not the best idea.


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## shangrila (Sep 25, 2013)

I've got some questions about your desert kingdom.

For starters, if they essentially own a monopoly on the mining and refining of metal, why are they so poor? Why is it cheap to buy metal? It doesn't make sense for them to undercut themselves. Hell, if anything I'd expect them to be one of the wealthiest nations, since metal is such a vital part of life (or was, in medieval times). And seeing how they own the majority of it, they could practically charge whatever they wanted for it, no?

I also think they need some way to feed themselves, at least a bit. Relying on trade makes sense, especially as it might be easier just to import the stuff than try to growing it, but relying entirely on others would put them at the mercy of the other nations. This eventually led into another thought; do they really need to be a separate nation. Perhaps a city-state type of situation, or a territory of a larger nation might make more sense. But then that last part is just my idea, feel free to ignore if it doesn't fit.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.


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## Edankyn (Sep 26, 2013)

shangrila said:


> I also think they need some way to feed themselves, at least a bit. Relying on trade makes sense, especially as it might be easier just to import the stuff than try to growing it, but relying entirely on others would put them at the mercy of the other nations.


Maybe I'm reading into the OP too much, but to me it sounded like he was trying to set up a situation where each country has an absolute advantage in one area (what you were referring to as monopoly). Switching any sort of production from mining to food production would be a net loss in terms of total output. However, you do point out that perhaps that reduction in output is warranted in order to have more stability in food resources.
Personally I'm more concerned about the first point you raised concerning pricing of metal. It's conceivable that someone in Natas is just really bad at controlling the trade of minerals, but I think you'd need to expand and spell this out a little bit more. Maybe your two cities in Natas are in fierce competition and wind up driving prices down so much or maybe someone from another kingdom (Avalar would seem to be the best fit) has an influence in the Natas trade and is providing kickbacks to someone in Natas for them to sell the minerals at such a cheap price. There just needs to be some kind of plausible reason for it.


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## rbidatta (Sep 30, 2013)

Couple of quick questions for you...I find when in doubt on creating and using names, finding a common thread helps. 

I tried to find your first thread, where you outline Aeterna more, but I'm very new here (first post/reply!) and was more excited about responding then hunting down that thread (sorry!).

What I gathered is this: your continent is Aeterna with the three kingdoms being Natas, Pentos, and Avalar. When settlers came to Aeterna, did they name the continent or were there native people already living there? When Aeterna was divided into three kingdoms, was there one person who named the three kingdoms or did each new ruler name their own kingdom? Do all three kingdoms share a common language? If not, do they historically share a common language? 

I'm asking about language because if all three share a common language and history, it may be helpful to look at a map of a country and see if there is any sort of pattern to how cities are named. I'm not talking about a cities characteristics (like looking to see if they are all named after animals or constellations, etc.), I'm talking about seeing how countries use their own language in naming things. Is there a preference for hard or soft syllables? Do they like longer or shorter names? To make Aeterna as real as possible, I would try to stick to one language pattern for the three kingdom names. It would be weird if one kingdom had a Russian feel to the name, another a Latin, and the third inter galactic feel...unless there was a reason and you told the reader what it was.

Natas and Pentos sound similar in that they end with a T followed by a vowel and s...whereas Avalar doesn't feel cohesive...and Aeterna doesn't even sound like it operates in the same galaxy. However, if there is a reason why they have different linguistic makeup, a back story to the naming process would be nice. 

If you really wanted, you could look to Latin and Greek and see what roots could describe each of the cities individually and them name them accordingly...or you try something similar with another language. 

Example (using Latin): Instead of having Natas, Pentos, and Avalar you could do Siccare (dry), Divites (rich), and Ferus (wild ((with swamps and magic popping up, Avalar kind of reminded me a the wild west for some reason)) and they are all located on the continent of: Coerceo (together). THIS is just an example of uniting your names under one linguistic style. 

OR if they all have different histories and languages they could each have a unique name (but all names within that Kingdom would have to follow the same rules). 

I feel the best worlds are the ones that feel organic in nature...and every little detail can help with that. Unless you are completely sold on these names, I would play around with them a bit more and see if you can make them more united. Sorry this was super long. I hope my feedback was more helpful than annoying.


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## S.T. Ockenner (May 26, 2020)

Is this set on Earth or an imagined world? You referenced the continent of Atlantis, so I'm not sure.


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## spaced06 (May 27, 2020)

I agree with the previously mentioned issue regarding the pricing of metal in the Kingdom of Natas. Mind you, there is nothing wrong with metal being cheap, as long as it's justified within the context of your story. There might be several reasons for this. Maybe there's a material out there that is better at doing the same things, leaving most metals as a cheaper, low quality alternative. Maybe someone is manipulating prices for whatever reasons. Maybe the supply of metal is just too high for the current demand due to mismanagement.
Anyways, I really like the ides of a "desert iron kingdom", but I think you could make it less one note, while simultaneously solving the pricing problem. Have the kingdom produce several different kinds of metals with different prices and qualities, and have social class tied into what metal each segment of society is most involved in. So for example, a poor comunity might do subsistence mining of common, cheaper metals like copper. Also consider quarries for stone and such. People in the "middle class" might deal with tin, or Iron. Meanwhile the secret of making steel could be jealously kept by the higher classes for obvious comercial and military reasons, and they might own the gold and silver mines. This would allow you to both have a kingdom that is heavily affected by poverty and also keep the pricing of things relatively plausible. You might even have a heavy social divide dynamic with corrupt leaders selling off valuable reasons for their own gain at the detriment of the general population, keeping the prices low and the country poor. Of course, what I gave is just a rough sketch and probably full of issues, but you get the idea.   
Also, a small detail regarding (soon to be renamed) Pentos: Lots of wood helps with big navies if the geographical conditions are appropriate.
Finally, a little pet peeve of mine: It's rather rare (though not entirely unheard of) for a large nation to be completely made out of a single type of biome. Certainly, it happens, but at least as far as I know it's much more common for nations to encompass several kinds of geography in their borders. It's rather uncommon for a nation to be entirely made out of forests, or valleys or mountains or whatever. For example, Natas might be a mostly arid kingdom, but you might want to have a river valley in there that provides a relative amount of abundance, at least to have your main cities watered. It could also have flat arid grasslands, and a dry rocky desert region that slowly turns into a mountainous system. This allows for greater diversity in your nations, as you can develop regional differences in culture and tradition that emerge directly from different relationships to the surroundings. Keep in mind, as you do not go very deep with geography I don't know if this applies to your creation directly, but in my opinion it's always a good thing to keep in mind.


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## spaced06 (May 27, 2020)

I agree with the previously mentioned issue regarding the pricing of metal in the Kingdom of Natas. Mind you, there is nothing wrong with metal being cheap, as long as it's justified within the context of your story. There might be several reasons for this. Maybe there's a material out there that is better at doing the same things, leaving most metals as a cheaper, low quality alternative. Maybe someone is manipulating prices for whatever reasons. Maybe the supply of metal is just too high for the current demand due to mismanagement.
Anyways, I really like the idea of a "desert iron kingdom", but I think you could make it less one note, while simultaneously solving the pricing problem. Have the kingdom produce several different kinds of metals with different prices and qualities, and have social class tied into what metal each segment of society is most involved in. So for example, a poor community might do subsistence mining of common, cheaper metals like copper. Also consider quarries for stone and such. People in the "middle class" might deal with tin, or Iron. Meanwhile the secret of making steel could be jealously kept by the higher classes for obvious commercial and military reasons, and they might own the gold and silver mines. This would allow you to both have a kingdom that is heavily affected by poverty and also keep the pricing of things relatively plausible. You might even have a heavy social divide dynamic with corrupt leaders selling off valuable reasons for their own gain at the detriment of the general population, keeping the prices low and the country poor. Of course, what I gave is just a rough sketch and probably full of issues, but you get the idea. 
Also, a small detail regarding (soon to be renamed) Pentos: Lots of wood helps with big navies if the geographical conditions are appropriate.
Finally, a little pet peeve of mine: It's rather rare (though not entirely unheard of) for a large nation to be completely made out of a single type of biome. Certainly, it happens, but at least as far as I know it's much more common for nations to encompass several kinds of geography in their borders. It's rather uncommon for a nation to be entirely made out of forests, or valleys or mountains or whatever. For example, Natas might be a mostly arid kingdom, but you might want to have a river valley in there that provides a relative amount of abundance, at least to have your main cities watered. It could also have flat arid grasslands, and a dry rocky desert region that slowly turns into a mountainous system. This allows for greater diversity in your nations, as you can develop regional differences in culture and tradition that emerge directly from different relationships to the surroundings. Keep in mind, as you do not go very deep with geography I don't know if this applies to your creation directly, but in my opinion it's always a good thing to keep in mind.


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## S J Lee (Jun 28, 2020)

Natas - would be better if it went through booms and busts, the price of metal going through ups and down over decades? Could have great big castles built in boom times that no-one now can maintain etc....

Remember - without fuel to burn for smelting, you have no metal! Wood is used for charcoal, historically? You need to smelt almost all ores to get a useful product. If Natas had no fuel, it would have to sell the ore more cheaply...what if someone suddenly found coal in Natas and found a way to smelt the ore in Natas and THEN sell only the finished product? A massive upheaval, Natas would get richer, and others would lose the ability to buy ore cheap. What would they do about it?

If Natas DOES export ore, remember that ore is heavy. Who transports it, and how? Do mule-trains cross deserts / dry lands? Is water a problem?


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