# Would you consider castration or penectomy for sexual assault to be overly harsh?



## Sharad9 (Oct 1, 2017)

This world historically consider males to be the more "inherently violent" sex, more prone to aggression and acting on impulse. This stigma has existed very early in humanity's history. As such, they are traditonally kept out of the highest positions of leadership, such as politics. Although this has begun to change recently in various nations, cultural traditions and biases are still prevalent.

 One of the ways some nations generally deal with violent, dangerous men who commit sexual crimes is through castration, in which the testicle are removed, or penectomy, which is the full removal of genitals. This would largely depend on several factors: severity of the crime, repeat offenses, number of victims, etc. It is used as a way to "neuter" individuals who pose a threat to society in order to prevent further crimes, deter others, and as a source of public shaming.

In your opinion, does this punishment fit the crime or does it go too far?


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## TheKillerBs (Oct 1, 2017)

I see a different issue. Aren't eunuchs better regarded than whole males in this setting? Why would you make the punishment for a violent crime be inclusion to a group of higher standing?


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## Sharad9 (Oct 1, 2017)

This is regarding a different setting. Nothing to do with that one.


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## plasticroyal (Oct 1, 2017)

I'd say if it's a believable response in that culture then go for it. As long as it fits in with the culture and their view on such crimes and measures for similar offences. 

I mean, you could even go further and have a society where most men are neutered to play it safe but select lines are kept for breeding. It's fantasy, you can do whatever as long as you write it well.


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## TheKillerBs (Oct 1, 2017)

Sharad9 said:


> This is regarding a different setting. Nothing to do with that one.



Alright then. I see no issue with it then. I mean yes it's cruel and excessive but there are societies that even now have cruel and excessive punishments. To Western sensibilities anyway


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## Russ (Oct 1, 2017)

To ask a group of modern people whether such a punishment is cruel or excessive or not, without any storey or cultural context strikes me as a rather useless exercise.


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 1, 2017)

Of course it's too harsh. It's cruel and unusual punishment. If you portray it as just and fair overall, the audience won't agree. It's also one of those crimes that is very difficult to prove unless overt violence is involved.


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## Viorp (Oct 1, 2017)

I think that castration should be the punishment we have for rape  IRL.

In a historical setting though... hmm... depends who rapes who.

peasant on peasant - probably resolved by vigelante justice, probably murder and killed by family of victim
noble on peasant - nothing happens
peasant on noble - probably publicly castrated and executed


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## plasticroyal (Oct 1, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> Of course it's too harsh. It's cruel and unusual punishment. If you portray it as just and fair overall, the audience won't agree. It's also one of those crimes that is very difficult to prove unless overt violence is involved.



I don't think it's too harsh a punishment at all, fits the crime IMO. I don't think adult fantasy readers will have much trouble digesting it in all honesty.


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 1, 2017)

plasticroyal said:


> I don't think it's too harsh a punishment at all, fits the crime IMO. I don't think adult fantasy readers will have much trouble digesting it in all honesty.



By the same logic, would you say cutting off people's hands for stealing is not too harsh either?


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## Devor (Oct 1, 2017)

I don't think most readers would be too put off by it, but it all depends on the context.  I mean, are you trying to sell readers on fairness in a harsh setting, or are you trying to pitch it somehow as a fair in a real world context?  Literary fairness is a different standard.

Bear in mind, though, what you're talking about is often, maybe even usually, a death sentence. It was pretty common to bleed out and die just from the process.


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## Viorp (Oct 1, 2017)

Nah, you would basically never bleed out. They'd just burn the wound whut with a hot iron.
It is a death sentence as now the whole city/town knows of your deeds.
You can be sure that some thugs will feel justfied beating the guy to death.


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 1, 2017)

The thing is the fact that the OP is asking about if castration of males for sexual assault is fair and this is a different setting to the one where the women are seen as superior and wield crystal powered golem mecha over the men as I recall. If I read two novels with different settings from an author where women were portrayed as so blatantly in charge and superior to men I could see feeling uncomfortable over it. Because one couldn't help but think that the writer genuinely believes it.


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## A. E. Lowan (Oct 1, 2017)

My first impulse is to say, "Nope, it's perfectly fine." After all, the victim's life is forever changed, why not the perpetrator's? But the question lends itself to questions of gender and power dynamics within the story's setting. It's complicated. It's not a question of whether or not the punishment is overly harsh. It is not. It is a question of whether or not it is plausible, given the setting.


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## Horus (Oct 2, 2017)

I see no problem here. In context, it seems fair, and even in our world there are a great deal many who would see it as a fair punishment. Now as many have already stated, are you trying to sell this society as being a fair one? Or are you trying to sell it as being a harsh and at times unreasonable one. 

If it the first one, you have no problems. If it is the latter, well you'd best go realistic with the implications of this. Unless magic or modern medical practices are involved, the person will have a high risk of dying. People can die from the process, not just by bleeding out, but also from infection. Also without anesthetics, the person can die of shock rather than bleeding out. In a low tech setting, castration (unless done by someone highly trained), will end horribly.


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## valiant12 (Oct 2, 2017)

I thing op is a troll.


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## Jsssssssssk (Oct 6, 2017)

I don't think it would be too harsh, because it was commonly done as punishment and to slaves in the past.


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## Bruce McKnight (Oct 7, 2017)

When I think of castration as a penalty for sexual crime, I immediately draw the correlation to chopping off a hand as a penalty for stealing. At first glance, it feels like a logical progression, but I think the deeper question is if it's realistic and that depends on who is in power.

People in power are usually rich, which means they don't need to steal. So they can make a law that cuts the hands off thieves to deter poorer people from stealing from them - no skin off their nu... you get the point. On the flip side with sexual crimes, I don't know if castration would be put in place as a punishment by rulers who were men. Now, female rulers? Castrations all over the place. Male rulers? I don't know... Males rule most places in our real world and there are some areas that use female circumcision as punishment, but I'm not sure there's a lot of places with castration punishment.

I guess the real issue is hypocrisy. Maybe people aren't as hypocritical in your world or maybe the rulers (or at least the lawmakers) are female. I think that or some other differing factor would need to be present to make it realistic.

So, to your original question: I don't necessarily think it's too harsh, I just think you need to have a good reason for it to be believable.


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## BloodyHellSausage (Oct 8, 2017)

Bruce McKnight said:


> ...and there are some areas that use female circumcision as punishment...



Can you give some examples? I've heard of female genital mutilation, but not in the context of a punishment.


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## plasticroyal (Oct 10, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> By the same logic, would you say cutting off people's hands for stealing is not too harsh either?



We're talking about the believability factor of such a measure in a fantasy context - not my personal views on excessive punishment. In the context of a fantasy world I wouldn't even blink at mention of a thief losing a hand, or indeed as we're discussing here, a man losing his junk for crossing a well-established societal boundary/redline.


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## Reaver (Oct 10, 2017)

I want to remind everyone of our Forum Rule regarding sensitive topics. If this thread begins to devolve into a shouting match, I will shut it down. Thanks in advance for your cooperation.



Black Dragon said:


> Sensitive Topics
> 
> When discussing sensitive issues, all members participating in such a discussion (post originator and respondents) are required to take extra care and treat the topic with the appropriate gravity, making certain they exhibit open-mindedness, understanding, respect, & empathy for their fellow scribes.
> 
> ...


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 10, 2017)

plasticroyal said:


> We're talking about the believability factor of such a measure in a fantasy context - not my personal views on excessive punishment. In the context of a fantasy world I wouldn't even blink at mention of a thief losing a hand, or indeed as we're discussing here, a man losing his junk for crossing a well-established societal boundary/redline.



Actually the OP didn't ask if it was believable because that goes without saying. He asked us if it was too harsh and if it fit the crime in "our" opinion. Because it is too harsh, the reader will see it as a villainous or at best anti-heroic act. What isn't believable is telling modern audiences this punishment is a good thing. It's a fundamentally evil act.


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## pmmg (Oct 10, 2017)

I think worse things have happened in many different cultures and many different times. It would only seem too harsh if the culture this was taking place in deemed it that way. The one to be punished might have a different opinion though. Could be it is too harsh, but it gets applied anyway, and thereby causes some societal reaction.


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## plasticroyal (Oct 10, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> Actually the OP didn't ask if it was believable because that goes without saying. He asked us if it was too harsh and if it fit the crime in "our" opinion. Because it is too harsh, the reader will see it as a villainous or at best anti-heroic act. What isn't believable is telling modern audiences this punishment is a good thing. It's a fundamentally evil act.



What isn't believable is an audience who would feel sympathy for a serial sex offender. IMO it fits the crime, sorry.


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## pmmg (Oct 10, 2017)

plasticroyal said:


> What isn't believable is an audience who would feel sympathy for a serial sex offender. IMO it fits the crime, sorry.



I hate to differ on such terrible a topic, but I think an audience can be made to feel sympathy for any character, more so if the story is well written and that is part of its effort.


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## plasticroyal (Oct 10, 2017)

pmmg said:


> I hate to differ on such terrible a topic, but I think an audience can be made to feel sympathy for any character, more so if the story is well written and that is part of its effort.



I find it difficult to detach myself from the reality of sexual assault I suppose.


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 10, 2017)

plasticroyal said:


> What isn't believable is an audience who would feel sympathy for a serial sex offender. IMO it fits the crime, sorry.



Body mutilation as punishment doesn't fit the crime in our culture. So the OP would be making a mistake if the intention is to portray it as ethical to western readers, where it's recognised that people accused of sexual offences have the right to bodily integrity.

The OP can portray such punishment by all means, but has to recognise that he or she is portraying a dystopian legal system.


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## plasticroyal (Oct 10, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> Body mutilation as punishment doesn't fit the crime in our culture. So the OP would be making a mistake if the intention is to portray it as ethical to western readers, where it's recognised that people accused of sexual offences have the right to bodily integrity.
> 
> The OP can portray such punishment by all means, but has to recognise that he or she is portraying a dystopian legal system.



OP outlined the culture involved in this hypothetical and I don't think the reader would find this out of line, in that sort of a society, in a fantasy novel, is all.

I don't think OP felt for a second that this would ever be regarded as just in our culture in the real world, of course not and I apologise for not being clearer on that point.

Edit: to be clear I see this along the same lines as Daenerys burning her enemies alive. Fit for fiction.


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## spectre (Oct 22, 2017)

0.0

I think it's up to you as a writer, but at this point with George R.R. Martin having popularized the eunich you might want to consider how you implement it if you intend to use it. This political edge is interesting, the overly harsh measure sounds more like an implementation of the politics and politics has never been kind so. Consider your writing.


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 26, 2017)

plasticroyal said:


> Edit: to be clear I see this along the same lines as Daenerys burning her enemies alive. Fit for fiction.



Portraying it as too harsh is fit for fiction. Portraying it as not too harsh is not. Either the OP understands that it's too harsh, and portrays it as such, for example by having those who do it go through comeuppance or development, or he doesn't realize it and portrays it as fine and dandy, and maybe even goes as far as to portray the victims of it as wrong for complaining, if they ever complain at all.


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## James Wilson (Jan 12, 2020)

In one of the realms in my Sundered Spheres, the punishment for rape is to be cast into the sea with a water-breathing spell and a sort of watery featherfall spell so that the perp slowly sinks until he’s crushed in the dark depths.  It might be overly harsh, but personally I think it’s too good for ‘em.


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