# Afterlife...kind of



## Androxine Vortex (Apr 28, 2012)

Hey everyone sorry I haven't been on for a long while.

In my novel, when you die your soul either goes to heaven or hell (both of which exist on planes not on the Earth) But my MC discovers a new hidden "plane" that exists on the Earth. It is an existence between life and death. He also discovers that he can harbor souls into this realm instead of them being sent to either Heaven or Hell. Long story short, he rallies up a large force to fight and conquer the Gods because now they don't have to fear their damnation. With this newfound sorcery and realm, their souls can remain on the Earth and just be brought back again and again without fear of truly dying forever.

So what would be a good name for this place? This place is filled with dreams and emotions so I was thinking of calling it the Dream Realm. Or the Plane of Dreams? What do you think?


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 28, 2012)

I love how this sounds, Vortex!! I am always a fan of Afterlife-like realms and I have loads of them in my stories =) Well, I would call this the Dreams Realm indeed (my personal theory is that the world of death is indeed the world of dreams) or maybe the In Between, like they call something similar in the movie Lovely Bones.


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## Queshire (Apr 28, 2012)

I think it depends on the make up of your dimensions. Is it a crack between dimensions? A calm spot in the storm of reality? Etc, and so on. I wouldn't call it the Dream Realms, especially if your guy is the first to discover them. Frankly... it strikes me as a bit corny... If there's an existing society there or existing rumors of the place that call it the Dream Realms and leads him to discovering it, then it'd be a different story.

Also, why exactly are they warring on the gods? Because they're their isn't a good enough a motivation, and if they don't have to worry about damnation / exaltation then wouldn't they just leave the gods alone? I'm reminded of the Web Original Novel, The Salvation War The Salvation War - Television Tropes & Idioms In it, God and heaven betrays and abandons Earth to the devil. Humanity, deciding to not just roll over and die, fights back. Maybe the MC is an escappee from Hell? Or he finds out that Heaven has closed it's doors and everybody goes to hell? Yeah, basically, give the fighters a reason to fight.

Another thing to consider is what was in the Dream Realms before he arrived? Was it empty when he stumbled upon it, or was there something or someone there? That could be a good way to extend the book, having to tame this realm.

How exactly does the coming back to life thing work? Does the body resurect after awhile, and if so what happens if the body was tossed into a volcano or something? Or do they generate a new body, and if so where does the matter for that come from?


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## Androxine Vortex (Apr 28, 2012)

Queshire said:


> I think it depends on the make up of your dimensions. Is it a crack between dimensions? A calm spot in the storm of reality? Etc, and so on. I wouldn't call it the Dream Realms, especially if your guy is the first to discover them. Frankly... it strikes me as a bit corny... If there's an existing society there or existing rumors of the place that call it the Dream Realms and leads him to discovering it, then it'd be a different story.
> 
> Also, why exactly are they warring on the gods? Because they're their isn't a good enough a motivation, and if they don't have to worry about damnation / exaltation then wouldn't they just leave the gods alone? I'm reminded of the Web Original Novel, The Salvation War The Salvation War - Television Tropes & Idioms In it, God and heaven betrays and abandons Earth to the devil. Humanity, deciding to not just roll over and die, fights back. Maybe the MC is an escappee from Hell? Or he finds out that Heaven has closed it's doors and everybody goes to hell? Yeah, basically, give the fighters a reason to fight.
> 
> ...



I haven't figured out every single detail yet so I'll try and answer the best I can.
The Gods are corrupt and cruel and force humanity to worship them. Praise us or go to hell. So thats why they want to war against the Gods. This way they can "die" and be brought back.

The MC makes pacts with Demons to get revenge o the Gods he hates. But in an old ruined temple he finds scrolls of magic and he discovers that these spells don't require a patron deity to use them (magic in this novel can only be cast by invoking the power of a god or a demon so he basically found a way to harness magic on his own) It also tells of an ancient sorcerer of the Dark Gods of Hell and how he used magic that was forbidden even to them. They tried to silence the sorcerer for they feared what he might learn, but what secret was so great that even the Devils wouldn't use the magic?

The legend says that the sorcerer went into Hell itself to learn the secrets but upon his return, he was attacked by a vicious demon. He could not prevail against it but he used his newly learned powers and sent his soul elsewhere. His soul (along with his legions) was sent to a place in between life and death. A place not of earth, or heaven, or hell. No one knows what this place is or why it exists, only the sorcerer who's soul is in an eternal slumber from the battle with the demon.

So when the MC find this realm, there are already things built here; fortresses, cities, etc. Think of this place being parallel to Earth. It exists on the same field as Earth does and has the same landscape (sort of) but it is in a separate plane of existence. So the two realms co-exist but do not specifically overlap each other. In some instanced this plane "bleeds" out into the physical plane so you might be walking around and find a door in the middle of a field that would take you into the spiritual plane. Its confusing and its details are supposed to be vague to the reader because only the sorcerer truly knows its secrets.

So in regards to the "coming back to life" this is how it works, and again I just had this idea not too long ago so it's still early in development. So basically instead of swearing your soul to a God (or a demon) you would infuse it with the powers of this realm. So that when you die, the powers of the realm are drawn back into it and since they are connected with you, you go back as well. Then with a little help of magic and incantations, your soul can be sent back to Earth again and again. So you are alive and dead in a way. Since you are half human and half...something else now, you will be like a ghost but with a half-physical body.

*The secret that he learned was that with this new form of magic, Mankind could use sorcery without divine or unholy assistance and could ultimately dominate and overthrow the heavens and hells


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## gavintonks (Apr 28, 2012)

The traditional name is purgatory


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## gavintonks (Apr 28, 2012)

Heaven and Hell is the common English title of a book written by mystic Emanuel Swedenborg in Latin, published in 1758.

The full title is Heaven and its Wonders and Hell From Things Heard and Seen, or in Latin: De Caelo et Ejus Mirabilibus et de inferno, ex Auditis et Visis.

This book is a detailed description of the afterlife, where people go after the death of the physical body. Topics range from details of the life of angels, including marriage in heaven (angels are married), time and space in heaven (there are not any), children in heaven, the enormous size of heaven, details of the after-death awakening process in the World of Spirits (which is midway between heaven and hell), going to hell, or heaven, in free will (as opposed to being sent to either place by God), and the eternity of hell – you could leave but you never want to, all of which the author claimed to have witnessed first hand.

Some of the things he claims to have experienced are that there are Jews, Muslims and people of pre-Christian times ("pagans" such as Romans and Greeks) in Heaven. He says he spoke to married couple angels from the Golden Age who had been happy in heaven for thousands of years.[1] The fundamental issue, he says, is that love of self or of the world drives one towards Hell, and love of God and fellow beings towards Heaven.

The work proved to be influential. It has been translated into several languages, including Danish, French, Hindi, Russian, Spanish, Icelandic, Swedish and Zulu. A variety of important cultural figures, both writers and artists, were influenced by Swedenborg, including Johnny Appleseed, William Blake, Jorge Luis Borges, Daniel Burnham, Arthur Conan Doyle,[2] Ralph Waldo Emerson,[3] John Flaxman, George Inness, Henry James Sr., Carl Jung,[4] Immanuel Kant, HonorÃ© de Balzac, Helen Keller, Czesław Miłosz, August Strindberg, D. T. Suzuki, and W. B. Yeats. Edgar Allan Poe mentions this book in his work The Fall of the House of Usher.[5] It also plays an important role in HonorÃ© de Balzac's novel Louis Lambert.[6] William Blake referred to and criticized Heaven and Hell and Swedenborg by name several times in his poetical/theological essay The Marriage of Heaven and Hell.


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## Devor (Apr 28, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> So what would be a good name for this place? This place is filled with dreams and emotions so I was thinking of calling it the Dream Realm. Or the Plane of Dreams? What do you think?



Typically, the word is limbo, and early on that's probably what they'd call it.  "Some kind of limbo."  But you should spruce it up with a nickname.




gavintonks said:


> This book is a detailed description of the afterlife, where people go after the death of the physical body. Topics range from details of the life of angels, including marriage in heaven (angels are married), time and space in heaven (there are not any), children in heaven, the enormous size of heaven, details of the after-death awakening process in the World of Spirits (which is midway between heaven and hell), going to hell, or heaven, in free will (as opposed to being sent to either place by God), and the eternity of hell — you could leave but you never want to, all of which the author claimed to have witnessed first hand.



Of note, I'm not sure that any of this can really be reconciled with traditional Christianity.


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## gavintonks (Apr 28, 2012)

512. LIII. THIRD STATE OF MAN AFTER DEATH, WHICH IS A STATE OF INSTRUCTION FOR THOSE WHO ENTER HEAVEN.
The third state of man after death, that is, of his spirit, is a state of instruction. This state is for those who enter heaven and become angels. It is not for those who enter hell, because such are incapable of being taught, and therefore their second state is also their third, ending in this, that they are wholly turned to their own love, thus to that infernal society which is in a like love. When this has been done they will and think from that love and as that love is infernal they will nothing but what is evil and think nothing but what is false; and in such thinking and willing they find their delights, because these belong to their love; and in consequence of this they reject everything good and true which they had previously adopted as serviceable to their love as means. [2] Good spirits, on the other hand, are led from the second state into the third, which is the state of their preparation for heaven by means of instruction. For one can be prepared for heaven only by means of knowledges of good and truth, that is, only by means of instruction, since one can know what spiritual good and truth are, and what evil and falsity are, which are their opposites, only by being taught. One can learn in the world what civil and moral good and truth are, which are called justice and honesty, because there are civil laws in the world that teach what is just, and there is interaction with others whereby man learns to live in accordance with moral laws, all of which have relation to what is honest and right. But spiritual good and truth are learned from heaven, not from the world. They can be learned from the Word and from the doctrine of the church that is drawn from the Word and yet unless man in respect to his interiors which belong to his mind is in heaven spiritual good and truth cannot flow into his life; and man is in heaven when he both acknowledges the Divine and acts justly and honestly for the reason that he ought so to act because it is commanded in the Word. This is living justly and honestly for the sake of the Divine, and not for the sake of self and the world, as ends. [3] But no one can so act until he has been taught, for example, that there is a God, that there is a heaven and a hell, that there is a life after death, that God ought to be loved supremely, and the neighbor as oneself, and that what is taught in the Word, ought to be believed because the Word is Divine. Without a knowledge and acknowledgment of these things man is unable to think spiritually; and if he has no thought about them he does not will them; for what a man does not know he cannot think, and what he does not think he cannot will. So it is when man wills these things that heaven flows into his life, that is, the Lord through heaven, for the Lord flows into the will and through the will into the thought, and through both into the life, and the whole life of man is from these. All this makes clear that spiritual good and truth are learned not from the world but from heaven, and that one can be prepared for heaven only by means of instruction. [4] Moreover, so far as the Lord flows into the life of any one He instructs him, for so far He kindles the will with the love of knowing truths and enlightens the thought to know them; and so far as this is done the interiors of man are opened and heaven is implanted in them; and furthermore, what is Divine and heavenly flows into the honest things pertaining to moral life and into the just things pertaining to civil life in man, and makes them spiritual, since man then does these things from the Divine, which is doing them for the sake of the Divine. For the things honest and just pertaining to moral and civil life which a man does from that source are the essential effects of spiritual life; and the effect derives its all from the effecting cause, since such as the cause is such is the effect.


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## gavintonks (Apr 28, 2012)

Purgatory 	1008 up, 240 down

A place between Heaven and Hell, where the soul is not bad enough to be sent to an eternity of damnation in Hell, but not good enough to go to Heaven, so it is sent there temporarily where the person suffers, and is purified so that it can be sent to Heaven. Heaven is depicted as being above or in the realm of the sky, while Hell is depicted as below or within the bowels of the Earth. These locations are thought to be physical. Purgatory is often depicted as a mountain mostly due to Dante's Divine Comedy, but it is also sometimes depicted as a middle realm between Heaven and Hell or a level beneath Hell. In most instances, Purgatory is simply seen as a type of limbo perhaps suspended between the upper and lower realms of Heaven and Hell. Purgatory plays a prominent role in Catholic religion. Roman Catholics, among other Christians, believe in the existence of purgatory as a realm of the afterlife, as well as Heaven and Hell.
more...
purgatory heaven hell middle realm catholic church religion
by Paul Wall Da People's Champ Nov 23, 2009 share this add a video
2. 	Helven 	3 thumbs up

An amalgamtional place between Heaven and Hell.
Those who are both heroic and villianious can go to the afterworld A.K.A. "Helven".
good evil life death in-between
by Mikekal Aug 23, 2009 share this add a video
3. 	Limbo 	7 up, 3 down

Originally used to describe a place in between Heaven and Hell where some souls are thought to be stuck forever, gamers have began using the term to describe a place in a video game where you cannot get out of without shutting the console off. This most frequently occurs in RPGs and may or may not include a glitch.
I was playing Fallout 3 and one of the story characters disappeared. I was stuck in limbo until I shut the game off and tried again.

You get stuck in limbo after defeating the boss in Cheetahmen 2.


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## Androxine Vortex (Apr 28, 2012)

Wow I can't believe I didn't think of Purgatory or Limbo. FACEPALM.


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## Queshire (Apr 28, 2012)

Mrr.... I still think you would a stronger reason then just the threat of hell. It takes a lot to start a revolution, and yes, despite the scale, what you are descirbing is a revolution, especially if the power structure is particularly ingrained. I imagine that the gods have been around for awhile yes? If the threat of hell is the only problem, people are unlikely to rebel, they would simply consider it a fact of life, similar to how the threat of prison is an accepted part of real life.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Apr 28, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> Hey everyone sorry I haven't been on for a long while.
> 
> In my novel, when you die your soul either goes to heaven or hell (both of which exist on planes not on the Earth) But my MC discovers a new hidden "plane" that exists on the Earth. It is an existence between life and death. He also discovers that he can harbor souls into this realm instead of them being sent to either Heaven or Hell. Long story short, he rallies up a large force to fight and conquer the Gods because now they don't have to fear their damnation. With this newfound sorcery and realm, their souls can remain on the Earth and just be brought back again and again without fear of truly dying forever.
> 
> So what would be a good name for this place? This place is filled with dreams and emotions so I was thinking of calling it the Dream Realm. Or the Plane of Dreams? What do you think?



Honestly? I don't think it's catchy enough. "Dream Realm" just doesn't quite sound like a serious alternative to Heaven and Hell. And since the original two planes presumably A) do not know about this place, nor B) can do nothing to shut it down, it has to be a pretty big deal.

Purgatory, I think, is too associated with the Heaven/Hell cosmology - it's a place where people are purged before they are let into Heaven. Limbo works a bit better, being the place where good pagans end up, but everyone uses Limbo for this sort of thing.

How about "Avalon"? In Arthurian legend, Avalon is described as a magical island, an "other realm" if you will, where King Arthur was taken to recover from his mortal wounds so that he may one day return and lead his people against their enemies. That would give you a nice symbolism; this realm being a "hidden island" within the cosmology, where dead heroes prepare to rise up against their supernatural tyrants.



Queshire said:


> Mrr.... I still think you would a stronger reason then just the threat of hell. It takes a lot to start a revolution, and yes, despite the scale, what you are descirbing is a revolution, especially if the power structure is particularly ingrained. I imagine that the gods have been around for awhile yes? If the threat of hell is the only problem, people are unlikely to rebel, they would simply consider it a fact of life, similar to how the threat of prison is an accepted part of real life.



Actually, the way this scenario is described it makes more sense if the gods are the ones to declare war. If any side is going to take direct action, it should be one one with the most to lose.

I mean, if they threaten to send you to hell if you don't worship them, and then people find this other place to go when they die, then people no longer have to fear hell and thus had no reason to worship the gods. That also removes the need to rebel, because now they can just take Option C instead.

The gods, on the other hand, are going to find they no longer have the monopoly on afterlives, which threatens their entire operation. They're going to want to seriously drop the hammer on the new faction.


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## Queshire (Apr 28, 2012)

I agree with Anders, but I think that even Avalon has too strong of an association in most peoples minds, how about Tir na nog? It' the land of fairies but also the dead in Irish mythology, and isn't well known at least in America. I also like Fiddler's Green as an afterlife. The story I heard of it is that to find Fiddler's Green you take an oar over your shoulder and start walking, when you come to somebody that doesn't know what it is, you've reached Fiddler's Green, but there's other legends surrounding it. I hear it has a good reputation amid military and maritime forces, which might work with your whole army of the dead thingie.


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## Androxine Vortex (Apr 28, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, but i think Limbo works best. I can understand your point by saying that the now "undead" souls have nothing to fear so why bother fighting, but they also go about killing everyone and harvesting more souls. In the long run, they want to overthrow the Gods forever. They want all of Mankind to join them and live in peace, but they can not do this if there are still men swearing fealty to the Gods. So their mentality is to kill and take he souls of the slain in order to save them from joining the Gods because one day heaven will fall. Pretty much every faction in my novel isn't "good"


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