# Women in Fantasy Gaming and Writing



## Steerpike (Jul 2, 2012)

A fairly good article at Gamasutra, with links to some other articles about the improbability of female armor as depicted in a lot of fantasy. Although the article is focused on video games, I think it has applicability to fiction, particularly to cover-art for novels, graphic novels, depictions in film, and so on.

Gamasutra - News - Opinion: Video games and Male Gaze - are we men or boys?


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## Jabrosky (Jul 2, 2012)

I plead guilty to drawing fantasy heroines with scanty clothing before, but they all came from hot countries where neither sex wore a lot of clothing to begin with, so they had an excuse. Other than that, I wholly concur with the article.


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## Steerpike (Jul 2, 2012)

Jabrosky said:


> I plead guilty to drawing fantasy heroines with scanty clothing before, but they all came from hot countries where neither sex wore a lot of clothing to begin with, so they had an excuse. Other than that, I wholly concur with the article.



Yeah, I think the kind of depiction you are talking about makes sense. But I've seen illustrations of women in chainmail bikinis on a frozen tundra, or wearing the scantiest of armor into battle  

In a fantasy setting, I suppose you can explain it with magic. In other words, a character could have on a bracelet that provides magical protection and "armors" them whether they're wearing any kind of substantial body armor or not. But it does seem like women are selectively the target of such minimal wardrobes.


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## Jabrosky (Jul 2, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Yeah, I think the kind of depiction you are talking about makes sense. But I've seen illustrations of women in chainmail bikinis on a frozen tundra, or wearing the scantiest of armor into battle


That's precisely what I find stupid about a lot of fantasy art. Of course, if characters are light-skinned like the vast majority of fantasy characters, then even if they moved closer to the Equator they might need to cover themselves up for protection against sunburn.



> In a fantasy setting, I suppose you can explain it with magic. In other words, a character could have on a bracelet that provides magical protection and "armors" them whether they're wearing any kind of substantial body armor or not. But it does seem like women are selectively the target of such minimal wardrobes.


In fairness, male "barbarian" characters like Conan are sometimes portrayed shirtless, though the reason for that is probably because our culture equates shirtless men with cultural backwardness. Of course, that in itself is also an incorrect and unfair judgement in addition to being a sexist double standard.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jul 2, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Yeah, I think the kind of depiction you are talking about makes sense. But I've seen illustrations of women in chainmail bikinis on a frozen tundra, or wearing the scantiest of armor into battle
> 
> In a fantasy setting, I suppose you can explain it with magic. In other words, a character could have on a bracelet that provides magical protection and "armors" them whether they're wearing any kind of substantial body armor or not. But it does seem like women are selectively the target of such minimal wardrobes.



Traditional Bedouin garb means you're pretty much swathed head to toe in fabric, with multiple layers. I don't quite understand the physics of it, or why in the Saudi desert you cover yourself up but in other hot (but wetter) areas, like central Africa, native peoples tended to have more exposed skin... but they also tended to have much darker skin, too, so... I dunno. Where's Ravana to explain it all?


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## Kit (Jul 3, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Traditional Bedouin garb means you're pretty much swathed head to toe in fabric, with multiple layers. I don't quite understand the physics of it, or why in the Saudi desert you cover yourself up but in other hot (but wetter) areas, like central Africa, native peoples tended to have more exposed skin... but they also tended to have much darker skin, too, so... I dunno. Where's Ravana to explain it all?



Desert: Not just sunburn, but blowing, stinging sand.


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## Reaver (Jul 3, 2012)

Really? This is an actual topic for debate? How imaginary women are depicted? Innocent people are being slaughtered around the world and this is cause for concern?


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## Chilari (Jul 3, 2012)

I think this is an entirely relevant topic. The way women are depicted in video games, fantasy and other media directly impacts upon and reflects the way women are seen by certain individuals. Hypersexualising women in video games leads to a cuture where it is considered acceptable to view women as nothing more than sexual objects and leads to sexual assault and rape. Innocent women are being raped and victimised off the back of negative hypersexualised imagery as described in the article and several articles linked within it. I don't voice chat when I play video games because the moment other players realise I'm female I get so much abuse like you wouldn't believe, and in fact barely even play online with strangers at all because of it. So yes I would say it's important.


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## Mindfire (Jul 3, 2012)

Chilari said:


> I think this is an entirely relevant topic. The way women are depicted in video games, fantasy and other media directly impacts upon and reflects the way women are seen by certain individuals. Hypersexualising women in video games leads to a cuture where it is considered acceptable to view women as nothing more than sexual objects and leads to sexual assault and rape. Innocent women are being raped and victimised off the back of negative hypersexualised imagery as described in the article and several articles linked within it. I don't voice chat when I play video games because the moment other players realise I'm female I get so much abuse like you wouldn't believe, and in fact barely even play online with strangers at all because of it. So yes I would say it's important.



Points taken, Chilari. But I think what Reaver was getting at is that instead of making the issue of objectification into an academic debate, perhaps it would be better to actually do something about relieving the human pain and suffering that we see in our everyday lives. 

Also, a few people being jerks and idiots doesn't mean I'll turn into a frothing rapist if I play Ivy Valentine in Soul Calibur. (I don't actually own Soul Calibur, but that's beside the point.)


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## Steerpike (Jul 3, 2012)

Well...when compared to tragedies of violence, poverty, and famine, there is literally nothing we will talk about in the context of writing fantasy fiction that will rise to equal level of importance in terms of the human condition on the planet. But since the site is devoted to talking about fantasy writing and the topics that arise within the context of that subject matter, I think this topic is fine


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## Reaver (Jul 3, 2012)

I apologize for not being more clear...I wasn't referring to this thread itself..just making a general statement about where society's priorities lie.  Thanks for seeing my point Mindfire, and thank you Steerpike & Chilari for making very astute observations.


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## Ghost (Jul 3, 2012)

Hey, now. How imaginary women are depicted is connected to how real women are perceived. I don't think it's fair to single out this thread as being unworthy of our time. It would hardly be productive to point out *all* the threads that aren't discussing big issues. If there's a particular global issue you guys want to talk about, it wouldn't hurt to start a thread on it. It's strange to vaguely hint about human suffering so people would stop complaining about issues you don't view as important.

[ETA: Now I feel weird since I was too slow with my post!]

I've never been to a convention, partly because it seems like they're geared toward the males with things like booth babes and all. An environment that supports the Dante's Inferno Sin to Win promotion sounds like a place to avoid. I don't use a headset in-game anymore. If I wanted to flirt with someone, I'd join eHarmony. I don't relate to the female characters in games. You can tell when developers spend more time making a female character look good from behind than working on her backstory or personality.

I'm not a big fan of FPS, but the promo for Tomb Raider is awful. It looks like the player is meant to be an outsider who saves Lara Croft rather than a person who views things from her perspective. If that wasn't the case, then I don't think they'd feature the attempted rape scenario.

I know for a fact there are decent male gamers out there and they outnumber the weirdos. The developers should be less skeevy, though. It's difficult to see past cut scenes of some female character's butt when I want to immerse myself in a game.


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## Amanita (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm not familiar with the video games industry and reading these articles, I don't think I've been missing much. I strongly disagree with the statement that objectification of and lack of respect for women is a minor issue not worth discussing. It might feel like this to some males, but luckily, their views aren't all dominating anymore. 
This might be true if it was only about fictional women being drawn in a way pleasing to male audiences but quite obviously, the problem also reaches out to living women in some way connected to this industry.

Concerning fantasy writing itself, I don't think that women with a unreasonable lack of clothing are such a common issue, at least not in the books I've been reading so far. The typical "damsell in distress" and/or "virginal innocence"-trope are much more common. Shouldn't really complain about the latter though because I'm doing it too. And while it is rooted in their culture, the fact that this happend to be the case probably says something about my line of thinking too.


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