# How much science in your fantasy?



## Ophiucha (Mar 11, 2011)

Spawned by a debate I had with a woman who insisted science fiction and fantasy were unmixable genres and that Dragonriders of Pern was pure fantasy, I thought I would ask you guys where you personally draw the line between science fiction and fantasy, and whether or not you include any science in your stories. Do you enjoy having magic linked to DNA, chromosomes, or some abstract scientific concept? Do you explain your dragons ability to fly by mixing and matching their biology with a T-Rex and a pterodactyl? Do your apothecaries stock pure minerals and gases for sale to any passerby alchemist? Or do you prefer a world where gravity and mountains are the results of a war between dragons and wizards? A world where anything can happen, where magic is as mysterious as it is powerful, a world where we took up wands instead of guns?

I think most authors fall somewhere between, really. It's sort of unavoidable. The advanced systems of magic are borderline sciences in even the most nonsensical of fantasy stories, and steampunk is becoming a popular trend in both science fiction and fantasy. I, personally, have both science and magic, but they are very separate entities. Magic is a mystical thing with little obvious logic behind it, and science is as advanced as any alternative world sci fi story would have it. There aren't many places where the two interact, though.


----------



## Mdnight Falling (Mar 11, 2011)

My story has magic being a natural gift.. either you have it or you don't  My dragons fly for the same reason the dragons in the 1983 movie Flight of Dragons do LOL It just seemed their theory was the most logical I'd ever come across so I ran with it LOL. I do believe every story has small bits of science in them.... Though on my worlds you'll find no guns of weapons of mass destruction or anything of the sort. There you'll find sharp pointy things and spells galore LOL dragons, massive birds made out of Rocks blood born "werewolves" etc. I tend to shy away from modern fantasy in general. For me to read it it really has to catch me within the first couple of pages LOL


----------



## LadyPamela (Mar 11, 2011)

Umm, not a lot of science, actually, in my current WIP. Just regular people in a secondary world, with cool creatures that don't exist here (griffins and dragons!). I am toying with the idea of my FMC discovering latent powers of some sort, but I haven't worked out the details. Oh, yeah, and I do have an ancient warrior spirit that protects those whom he deems worthy.

I, too, shy away from writing modern fantasy. I love historical/medieval/Ren. time periods. (Hey, my name isn't LadyPamela for nothin')!


----------



## Telcontar (Mar 12, 2011)

But.. the Dragon Riders of Pern was actually pure science fiction. They were descendants of colonists who had genetically bred the dragons. They visited the space ships that brought them there.

Anyway, I definitely try many angles on this. I have the tendency to try and define everything, but I actually prefer to let magic be very mysterious. If you create a complex but consistent magic system, it ceases to be magic - it's science now, just science different from the real world. 

My personal sweetspot here would be giving the reader just enough information about magic so they have a vague idea of what _should_ be possible, or what your magic-users should be capable of, with lots of room for leeway. I think Tolkien nailed this aspect. He kept magic mysterious and impressive.


----------



## Donny Bruso (Mar 12, 2011)

Science I try to keep as an opposing force to magic, much as in reality it is an opposing force to religion. It doesn't come up much in my writing, as I usually get my science fix by writing some Sci-fi instead of mixing it into my fantasy. With that being said, I have to disagree about Tolkien's handling of magic, at least in the actual LOTR trilogy.

In the Hobbit, Tolkien was much more open about Gandalf performing magic. He blows stuff up, he lights pine cones on fire, he more or less time travels, he screws with troll's minds (not that you really need magic for that, ventriloquism would probably have worked just as well). 

I can agree that magic shouldn't get turned into a deus ex machina, but it does need a certain amount of 'screen time' in a story, or what's the point of having it? The only things I can think of that Gandalf does by magic in the entire LOTR trilogy is light a fire, make light with his staff, the fight with the balrog, of course, a bit of self defense from Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli in Fangorn, and a 'shaft of white light' he shoots a nazgul with outside minas tirith. I may be missing one or two, but that's not much, and realistically, for 'magic' is kind of lame, at least in my opinion.


----------



## Mdnight Falling (Mar 12, 2011)

One of my chars is an elementalist.. she works with the five major elements. But it's not a taught ability, she was born having it and had to be taught how to control it  I don't think that falls under the science category x.x!


----------



## Telcontar (Mar 12, 2011)

Heh. What you call lame, I like. Also, you're missing on of my favorite parts - Gandalf fighting the Ring Wraiths on Weathertop. They describe Aragorn and the hobbits seeing it from a far, though I forget the exact words.

Not sure how you can call some of these things lame, also. The fight with the Balrog? These are two of the most ridiculously powerful creatures in the world. 

A lot of the magic in the Lord of the Rings is very subtle on the surface. It is often a sort of contest of wills - Balrog vs. Gandalf, Aragorn vs. Sauron, Gandalf vs. Saruman, etc. I always have in mind that nearly any other creature attempting these feats would not only lose, but lose hard. The magic may not be flashy, but I most certainly find it impressive.

@Mdnight Falling: Even a born ability can be kind of scientific. It all falls down to the system itself. If it is predictable and reliable, it is really just a replacement for science. This isn't all that bad - most magic actually IS a replacement (or enhancement) to science.


----------



## Ophiucha (Mar 12, 2011)

Telcontar said:


> But.. the Dragon Riders of Pern was actually pure science fiction. They were descendants of colonists who had genetically bred the dragons. They visited the space ships that brought them there.


Yes, I was arguing in favor of it being science fiction - the lad I was arguing against said it wasn't. To be specific, he said: "Ok strap some freaking lazers on the dragons shoulders and then we got sci fi. otherwise dragons are mythology shall i sendd you links to prove myself cuz i really dont feel i should waste my time arguing with you. you have absolutly no idea what you are talking about and i think it will stay that way because you are not willing to accept the fact that you are wrong!!!!!! have a nice day you mythology sci fi mixer upper. have a nice day just wondering did you read it. i dont wanna come off as mean or anything but its the truth" There were a few others arguing against me, but he was the most... vocal.

And I also enjoy more mysterious magic, although I do like to include science as a separate entity in the story, too. The magic is mysterious, and you don't really know how it works. And then there is science, and we know exactly how it works. And they coexist.


----------



## Mdnight Falling (Mar 12, 2011)

I've owned a bunch of the McCaffrey books.. but never read any of them... I'm all for reading about dragons, unicorns and others of the sorts, but something about the Dragon Riders of Pern refused to catch me LOL Now I know why x.x damn sci-fi x.x!


----------



## Donny Bruso (Mar 12, 2011)

@Telcontar: This is why people have free will, so they can have different opinions about things. Everyone wants something different in their fantasy. I'm not saying that the utmost inner workings of magic need to be explained. Realistically that's probably more exposition than most authors are going to be able to 'sneak' into the text. I don't mind that Tolkien doesn't explain how magic works. Ultimately, I don't care _how_ it works, so long as it does.

As for weathertop, yes, I forgot that part, though I did mention I thought I was forgetting some. That is probably one of the 'flashier' sequences, and what I would consider to be an appropriate use of magic in the story. 

The fight with the balrog... there isn't much magic there. Gandalf tries to put a spell on the exit door from Balin's mausoleum, and it doesn't work, the door shatters into a million pieces, but you don't see it. Gandalf just tells you about it. The fellowship then proceeds to run away(a time honored tradition among fantasy characters, lol) and get to the bridge. Again, there isn't what I'd call a 'magical battle' Gandalf just breaks the bridge, they fall, end of scene.

The rest of this fight, the actual magical battle part, again, the only time you hear about it is from Gandalf when they meet up in Fangorn. Now, obviously from your username you are a much bigger Tolkien fan than I am. When I was a teenager, probably sixth through ninth grade, I read and re-read LOTR over and over, probably a dozen times. Now, after having read so much more of the variety of fantasy out there, I can't read Tolkien anymore, for reasons I won't go into because I don't want to hijack the thread.

I have a deeply buried thread of cynicism inside. I also have several more right on the surface, and if the only 'proof' of something is one person's word, and no one else saw it; I don't readily believe it. Even in literature. I always harbor the suspicion that Gandalf is a fraud, his 'offstage' magic just things he makes up to enhance his reputation, because let's face it, Gandalf is a bully. He demands that things be done his way, and he has little patience for people who try alternate theories.

I also find it interesting how readers as a group extend a forbearance to magic that they wouldn't have anywhere else. If an author went around saying that 'Bobby is the worlds' greatest swordsman' but Bobby never draws his sword, we all just kind of go WTF? But once magic is involved, we all suddenly have the patience of saints.

In the end we're just looking for different things in fantasy novel and that's fine. That's what we're here to discuss, isn't it?


----------



## Mdnight Falling (Mar 12, 2011)

That response was well thought out Donny and I absolutely agree with you on Gandolf -.- Even in the movies the magic he used was minimal. It made to look flasher but still I think in the first movie when he's stuck on the tower top and calls the bird thing (which my fiancee informed me came from the Hobbit which I never bothered to read >.>) he doesn't even use ANY magic.. at least not in the movie... I don't remember if he did in the book in this part or not. I mean honestly, the Bad guy white wizard got off the tower without calling for a bird... So why couldn't Gandolf too . I think the only thing that actually shows Gandolf does have some basic abilities is the fact that he didn't die in the scene with the bridge.. Tell me since you all have finished the books and probably the movies where I haven't... Do they ever tell how he became a white wizard?


----------



## At Dusk I Reign (Mar 12, 2011)

Gandalf is one of the Maiar, who serve as angelic beings in the LotR universe. He's basically existed since the beginning of time so he's incredibly powerful although, as has been noted, he doesn't always show it. Anyway, the Maiar change bodies like someone changes hats, so it's no surprise that he bounced back from his encounter with the Balrog. Some might consider it a bit of a cheat, but who am I to question Grandpappy Tolkien?


----------



## Mdnight Falling (Mar 12, 2011)

Ahhhh so a bit of light has been shed.. thank you Dusk cause that falling with the Balrog and then being a white wizard irked me to no end LOL >^.^< Your information has been stored and hopefully I'll remember it when I read or watch the movies again


----------



## Ravana (Mar 12, 2011)

At Dusk I Reign said:


> Gandalf is one of the Maiar, who serve as angelic beings in the LotR universe.… the Maiar change bodies like someone changes hats



Similar to the Hindu concept of avatars: he's a mortal incarnation of a divine being. The balrogs, by the way, are also Maiar, as is Sauron… they're the ones that followed the original "dark lord" (Melkor or Morgoth, depending on when in history he's encountered; same guy, either way). Turns out that all five of the Istari (Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, and two others) were Maiar, apparently, if one delves deeply enough into the "unfinished" stuff Chris published after daddy's death. The Maiar were themselves either a subset of the Valar (the big gods–though they rarely do anything; the only one whose name shows up in _LoTR_ is Elbereth/Gilthoniel) or were a lesser "species" (angels/demigods as opposed to gods); it's not entirely clear which, as Tolkien used "Valar" both in reference to the entire group of divinites and specifically to the ones who are not Maiar.

Of course, that's pretty much a side track from where this thread started out.…


----------



## Ravana (Mar 12, 2011)

Ophiucha said:


> "have a nice day you mythology sci fi mixer upper. have a nice day just wondering did you read it. i dont wanna come off as mean or anything but its the truth"



Hmm. Think I may have to abandon my usual objectivity and tact on this one…:

What an idiot.

Just wondering if _he_ read the books? Like the story where it talks about the initial survey team that scouted the planet to see if it was good for colonization? Like the parts where they talk about the dragons being selectively bred–and, it is at least implied, genetically engineered–from native creatures? Like the original colony ships still in orbit above the planet? Like the supercomputer that gets discovered in… well, I'll skip the rest of that, so as to not spoil it for those who haven't read it.

News flash: that's science fiction. There's no reason you can't have dragons in science fiction. We could easily engineer reptilians that large now (getting them to fly would be harder… okay, impossible: that part, at least, is more "fantastic" than "scientific"), never mind what could be done centuries or millennia from now, never mind what could be done with native stock on another planet that was already part way there. Fire-breathing would be trickier, but again, if they were already evolved that way.…

Don't want to come off as mean or anything… ahh, forget it: I'll happily come off as mean on this one. The guy's a moron. (He also can't type, can't spell, and can't handle grammar or punctuation. In all likelihood he's ugly and his mother dresses him funny, too. If you're going to argue about literature, you shouldn't start by destroying your credibility by coming off as illiterate.…  )


----------



## Ravana (Mar 12, 2011)

Anyway, to answer the _initial_ question.… 

I've covered the entire spectrum, from using purely "real" fantasy settings (no magic, no nothin') to scientifically "explained" magic (you've seen me mention it elsewhere) to the utterly fantastic, impossible-to-base-in-anything-even-vaguely-resembling-science variety. Generally, I lean towards something that at least _sounds_ like it could be accounted for, somehow: if nothing else, it helps when addressing the issue of placing limits on what it can do.

I'll also tell you that a great deal of what's considered "science fiction" is more "magical" than a lot of what you see in fantasy. Faster-than-light travel? Completely impossible, as far as we know. Teleportation? Even worse. Nanotechnology? Yes, it exists, in its infancy; no, it will _never_ be able to do a lot of the things it's represented as being capable of. Telepathy? Well, some claim it exists now–and the most common response by the scientific community to such claims is that it can't be explained by any known scientific principle, can't be reliably tested, and doesn't obey the laws of thermodynamics… none of which so much as even slows down an SF author who wants to use it. I just finished reading a book by Walter Jon Williams where the characters actually _did_ use magic (a variation on geomancy, to be specific)… but no one would ever mistake it for "fantasy" just because magic was _there_. 

The simple "truth" (to borrow a word Ophiucha's critic abuses–he seems to think employing it will instantly seal his victory… a sort of invocation, as it were…) is that nearly all SF requires not merely extrapolation from current science, but in most cases the invention by the author of things that don't exist, that we have no reason to believe _could_ exist, and which often flat-out violate one or more accepted scientific laws. Seriously: "focusing crystal"? Magic. But "dilithium crystal"? Ahh, _now_ we're in the realm of science.… 

Bull.

On the other hand, there probably isn't much point in arguing science with someone who can't spell "laser" properly.…


----------



## Amanita (Mar 13, 2011)

Sorry for ignoring the LotR-discussion but I’m not that familiar with Tolkien’s world, therefore only an answer for my own. 

As I’ve mentioned in another thread, I believe, my „modern“ fantasy world has advanced science similar to our own in many ways. 

Elemental magic is really intertwined with chemistry by then which leads to the practitioners discovering new ways to use their powers but there are also many old abilities that are forgotten by most, because they aren’t linked to chemistry in any logical way and many magicians don’t believe in them anymore. 
This change used to be the reason for great troubles between the elemental magicians in the past but now the “pro-science-side” has more or less “won.” Looking on elemental magic this way has led to many problems however. People started thinking that using elemental magic isn’t different from powering a  chemical reaction with heat, pressure or anything like that but it makes a great difference on someone’s mind, something they stopped believing as well, however.

The other form of magic in my world is inborn in people who are descendents of water nymphs, storm demons and other creatures like that. It is often seen as completely contrary to science for various reasons and people who have that non-human descended not that far back are hardly able to live in a modern environment anymore, many of them end up in psychiatric treatment and die from the drugs they’re given. 
They used to be the dominant group of magic users in the past but have been pushed to the background in the course of history. 
There’s also an enmity between the practitioners of the two forms of magic, among other reasons because they can’t properly interact magically with each other. 

Both science and elemental magic are more about conquering nature and making humans less dependent from it, while the second form of magic is about respect and worthship for nature, many of the things they can do, are only possible due to the help of their non-human ancestors. 

Concerning the differences between Science Fiction and Fantasy. I often get the impression that besides the future setting, terminology is an important factor. Many Science Fiction-concepts aren’t any more realistic than most Fantasy concepts but they’re described as if they were connected to modern science while Fantasy tries to leave such terms out completely. 
On the other hand it’s not really easy to decide which abilities might be possible one day and which ones aren’t. Two hundred years ago most people probably wouldn’t have believed that it’s possible to write a message down in Germany and have people in the USA be able to read it a few seconds later without magic.


----------



## Donny Bruso (Mar 13, 2011)

I forget where this line originated, possibly Star Trek in some way shape or form, but basically it says "Any technology so far beyond our own as to be inexplicable is essentially magic."


----------



## Chilari (Mar 13, 2011)

I believe Arthur C Clarke's Third Law is "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". And Star Trek thing that was said along those lines is probably based on this.


----------



## At Dusk I Reign (Mar 13, 2011)

My world is still getting to grips with steampower and clockwork devices. If I get an idea which requires society to become more advanced I'll have to consider a change of approach and an upping of the technological stakes, but so far things are ticking along nicely. No pun intended.


----------



## Donny Bruso (Mar 13, 2011)

@Chilari Makes sense, now I just wish I could remember where I heard the line ripped off, lol.


----------



## Telcontar (Mar 13, 2011)

Donny Bruso said:


> @Telcontar: This is why people have free will, so they can have different opinions about things. Everyone wants something different in their fantasy. I'm not saying that the utmost inner workings of magic need to be explained. Realistically that's probably more exposition than most authors are going to be able to 'sneak' into the text. I don't mind that Tolkien doesn't explain how magic works. Ultimately, I don't care _how_ it works, so long as it does.



Certainly! I have and always will say that all writing is subjective. But isn't it part of the fun of internet forums to Go round and round with arguments that have no effect on each other? 

The only point I have is that when you say that there 'isn't much magic there' you are mistaking the lack of fire and explosions for the lack of magic. I like to believe that Gandalf and the Balrog (and many of the other battles) were actually full of magic. It was just elegant, subtle, and for most purposes invisible. 

Also, as you say you have a deeply buried thread of cynism (which I have as well, but only for the real world. I suspend it for reading fiction - to an extent), what would you say IS a good use of magic, or a good magic system?

And of course, yes. I am a huge Tolkien fan. Other details of Tolkien have already been discussed, so I won't bother bringing anything else up (no matter how much of an urge I have to try and _clarify_ the details that I love so much).

@Opiucha: Ah, in that case (with the "Pern is Fantasy" guy) you can rest easy knowing that he is demonstrably wrong. A rare thing on the interwebs...

On another note, does anyone else do a lot of thinking on how magic would have _affected_ the growth of technology? Being able to ignore certain small physical laws even in small cases would change everything. If the wizards can bring rain, who needs irrigation? It's also fun to examine whether this makes magic and technology 'equivalent' or if there is an advantage in one or the other. Being that I usually try not to make magic just another science, I come down on the side of technology and learning being better on the balance of it. Of course, that doesn't mean much to the wizard who can, himself, fly.


----------



## Donny Bruso (Mar 13, 2011)

@Telcontar - Like I said in a previous post, I'm not looking for an actual magic 'system'. I don't really need to know how it works, I just want to see it happen 'onstage' so to speak. I don't want Gandalf to run down the stairs & say he put a closing spell on the door and it failed, I want to be up there in the stairwell with him, seeing him strain, sweat, and struggle to keep it closed. If the spell fails, I want to see the door explode into splinters and the look of complete shock on his face as he runs for his life down the stairs.

To me it's just being more descriptive about what is happening in your story. To me, not showing magic in your work is like not describing some horrible smell your character encounters. sure you can say 'the room smelled bad' and get away with it, but it's more effective if you say 'the room stank. A commingling reek of armpit sweat, urine, stale beer, and rancid potatoes. The foul odor was so thick it coated the sinuses and tongue, imparting a taste even more foul than the stench.'

And I'm not saying that magic has to be fire and explosions. Obviously there are more elegant applications. Perhaps wizards have evolved magical techniques to assist with construction, or to enhance crop growth time/yield. Maybe they have focused on mental techniques, enhancing memory, or sharing memories like internet videos among people. There is just about anything you can accredit to magic with the proper imagination. I'm not saying use it as a deus ex machina, which irritates people, myself included, but if you are going to include it in a story, why keep it in the background? Let it have some flash and have some fun with it is my opinion.


----------



## Mdnight Falling (Mar 13, 2011)

the scene you're talking about Donny.. actually DID happen from Gandalf's POV in the book... the entire time he tried to keep the door shut was detailed until the others ran down the stairs... but I agree the movies while good could have done better in representing the books...


OH I remember why I wanted to post today! I have the PERFECT thing where magic and technology are merged and it didn't even dawn on me until this thread came about LOL. There's an Anime called Wolf's Rain. It has both magic and technology. Though I think technology may actually overpower the magic in the series.

Anyway, in Wolf's rain you have wolves.. The animal. But people don't know they're wolves. Wolves have become a legend or a myth somehow and they're all thought to be extinct. They don't tell why I don't think but the wolves ended up going into hiding. hey hid right infront of the peoples' eyes but willing themselves to make people see them as human. There's no technology in THAT part by the way... that's one of the magic parts... The wolves are on a mission to find a place called Paradise, which may or may not exist.

The technology part is Chezza... The flower maiden. A completely genetic engineered "human" like being made out of Lunar Flowers that reacts to wolf blood and knows the way to Paradise. Really it's a great series.. Then again I may be biased cause I love wolves in general. But yeah I knew I'd watched something that combined magic and technology to the point you almost forgot the two had been joined..

Another one would be Eureka 7, but the only magic part I found in that Manga/Anime was at the end when Eureka and Ren merge into one spirit being


----------



## Ophiucha (Mar 13, 2011)

I guess I can elaborate on my own story, since others have begun doing so.

In my story, magic is created by the presence of the Eldest (or the Oldest, people refer to them differently depending on how they regard them). The Eldest are these draconian sea beasts (save one which lives in the mountains of the Occident) of nigh invincible strength and immortal lifespans. They hibernate for hundreds of years at a time, but when they are awake, they cause great havoc upon all worlds (including Earth). Their skin shedded long ago to create the land, and the smallest flakes of their inert magic created the faeries. A faery is nothing more than magic itself. But the world was as dead as the skin that it came from, and so the faeries created dragons, magicless beings to populate the world. The Eldest were displeased with this, and so created elves, creatures which were tied to the Eldest, yet could only use magic via faeries. The process is ambiguous, but it involves lining their ears with faery dust. It created a balance in the world, and it gave the Eldest some beings to mess with in their home world. Magic, here, is definitely not much of a science. The only rule of it is that as it becomes more powerful, it becomes more specialized. At your 'peak', a water mage (as an example) could lift the water from a lake, but before she is popular enough to lift the sea, it begins to work against her. She goes to lift the sea, yet she leaves behind her a pile of salt, sand, and sea dragons behind. She can ONLY manipulate water, and anything in it - any impurity - is left outside of it. This works in various ways depending on the magic, of course.

As for technology, that ended up a bit odd. Their technology was somewhere between Renaissance and Industrial Revolution, depending on where in the Kingdom you were, up until about four decades ago. When the Eldest awoke from their latest hibernation, there was a new species on Earth - "humans" - who were remarkably similar to elves. They took to Earth, and it created passages between the two. Earth moves forward in time far greater than Mercury (Mercury is the name of this world), so if a man from, say, 1850 comes through one year, two years later, it could be a woman from 1865. Paridell, a sort of warlord in the Occident (where these passages tend to open), makes deals with humans in exchange for information on their world. He will get them jobs, tutors, and all the necessities for life. Most agree to it, but obviously, most are only so knowledgeable. He gets bits and pieces of information. A man may come through who is a zeppelin engineer, or a woman may come through who can only really draw one and explain the basics. Technology evolves far faster than he can keep up with it, as well. He may at last master the steam engine only to find that technology obsolete by the time another human speaks with him. This leads to some seriously skewed technology. Mostly with a steampunk feel - clockwork robots and steam-powered computers - but by the time the story starts, he's already gotten into the diesel-powered technology and the year on Earth is about 2160.


----------



## Mdnight Falling (Mar 13, 2011)

Wow! That sounds awesome Ophiucha!


----------



## S.T. Ockenner (May 26, 2020)

Ravana said:


> I just finished reading a book by Walter Jon Williams where the characters actually _did_ use magic (a variation on geomancy, to be specific)… but no one would ever mistake it for "fantasy" just because magic was _there_.



It sounds like Science Fantasy, which could be:
Sci Fi with magic
Fantasy, but in the future
or many other variations.
So it technically is Fantasy, but it is also Science Fiction


----------

