# Top 10 Stereotypes in Fantasy?



## Rhi Paille

Afternoon!

Soooo I have a panel to do at a convention this weekend talking about stereotypes in fantasy. I do remember a handy list of 75 things, but it was pretentious and I'd rather not use something smutty to present my findings. 

Instead, I thought I'd ask you fine folks over here what you think is stereotypical in fantasy today. 

Any feedback is entirely appreciated. 

Namaste,
Rhi


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## Steerpike

1. The too-beautiful heroine.
2. Elves are graceful and revering of nature.
3. Dwarves are ale-swilling craftsmen.
4. The powerful villain has one weakness that he inexplicably fails to protect against.
5. Humans are the most destructive race.

Just a few off the top of my head that show up regularly.


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## Ankari

Well, nothing official but here is my list:


That there are exclusively evil races (orcs, troll, etc)
That the "good" side suffer emotional setbacks but are generally immortal.
That evil manifests itself physically (ie bent back of a warlock, the blind eye of an evil priest, etc)
That the good side seem to lack such deformities.
That evil is bent on destroying the world (really?  Why?  So it can have power over nothing?)
That an object is the key to overcoming the great evil (think of King Arthur or Rand)
That good characters are free of moral flaws
The "Haven."  Every protaginist flees to some haven to either heal or increase their strength before the vanquish evil.
That the guards who stand in front of any room are really just scarecrows dressed in armor (Why do guards die so fast?  Why do they never seem to suspect their eminent death?)
That the hero has modest roots, usually as a farmer or shepherd.


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## Elder the Dwarf

Steerpike said:


> 4. The powerful villain has one weakness that he inexplicably fails to protect against.



This one without a doubt.


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## Ailith

1. The young hero who starts out as a whiny inexperienced bumpkin, and ends up a powerful wielder of some power he never knew he possessed. 
2. The old eccentric mentor who sets the hero on his path.
3. The initially skeptical damsel, who has super skills, but for some reason will still need to be rescued at some point. 
4. The epic bad guy whose name is super scary sounding.
5. The surprise relation. “Luke... I AM your father.” 
6. The ancient prophecy that singles out our hero as the only person who can take down epic bad guy.
7. The scary witch/voodoo/swamp lady who scares everyone else but for some reason helps the hero.
8. The somewhat ridiculous bard who is there so the author can slip in some “poetry.”
9. The elf/human romance.
10. The item that the hero thinks is useless, but carries around anyway for 967 pages until he realizes that it’s what he needed all along to save the world! Lucky, that.


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## Sheilawisz

1- Good vs Evil.
2- Dark Lord that wants to take over the world.
3- Hero that comes from a low birth and rises to power and legend.
4- Friends of the hero.
5- Old guy with loads of wisdom to help the hero.
6- Elves.
7- Dwarves.
8- The prophecy about the hero that would vanquish all evil.
9- Powerful objects of some kind that are important for the story.
10- Damsels in distress.
11- Tragic love stories.


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## Ankari

> 2. The old eccentric mentor who sets the hero on his path.
> 6. The ancient prophecy that singles out our hero as the only person who can take down epic bad guy



Man, I forgot those!



> 10. The item that the hero thinks is useless, but carries around anyway for 967 pages until he realizes that it’s what he needed all along to save the world! Lucky, that.



That one just made me laugh.


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## Steerpike

These are all good.

The interesting question is whether any one of them should necessarily be avoided. They're cliches because they appear frequently in popular stories. The stories they appear frequently in are popular because readers like them


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## Ailith

> The interesting question is whether any one of them should necessarily be avoided. They're cliches because they appear frequently in popular stories. The stories they appear frequently in are popular because readers like them



I agree 100% Of course you don't want to overdo it, or write a story made up of only "cliches," but they are part of our literary vocabulary. You can find most of these in Ancient Greece! 

It's similar to composers using basic chord progressions - just because they follow a predictable pattern doesn't mean that the music is not well written. Using a familiar harmonic vocabulary (or NOT using it) is part of what gives music meaning. The listener expects for certain notes and chords to resolve, and readers can also sense what role the various basic "characters" should play.


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## Steerpike

Ailith said:


> I
> It's similar to composers using basic chord progressions - just because they follow a predictable pattern doesn't mean that the music is not well written. Using a familiar harmonic vocabulary (or NOT using it) is part of what gives music meaning. The listener expects for certain notes and chords to resolve, and readers can also sense what role the various basic "characters" should play.



Speaking of which:


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## Ailith

And... that's a great example of how some cliches (I-IV-V-I) can be overdone.


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## Devor

People have mentioned the Chosen One from a poor upbringing, the mooks who can be killed because they don't count as human, and the "invincible, but for...."

I'm going to add:

1)  Fights that are waved aside:  _The blade flashed_ or _three quick strokes and they fell_.
2)  Group members who are weirdly balanced, as if nobody else can be of use if their "stats/dps" don't add to the same number.
3)  Wizards who are all-powerful and immensely rare, but only seem to use their magic for combat, and only for fire at that.
4)  Magic Swords which play some great big unique role in the world.
5)  The useful magical items which always seem to consolidate around our hero, and nobody else (or in some cases, see 2).
6)  Only the bad guys get to use their army, even if the good guys have one on paper.
7)  Societies based on real-world cultures instead of their own quasi-historic adaptations to the world.
8)  The magical races whose personalities are either completely human or else extremely stereotyped.  (Funny how the personalities of elves and dwarves have kind of simplified in most books since Tolkein.)
9)  The monster who's bland, but happens to be "immune to you."
10) Character relationships and attitudes which appear very modern.


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## Ankari

> 10) Character relationships and attitudes which appear very modern.



So true.  That is why I enjoy reading some Conan novels.  I also wonder why authors haven't, until Martin, modeled their societies after the true middle ages.  They take the swords, the armor, the castles, the dress and the food, but never social norms such as relationships and such.


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## Christopher Wright

I don't get the modern thing. Why do people read stories? So they can be impressed with your grasp of middle-english sexual mores? Well, some, maybe, but for the most part people are reading fantasy to be entertained, and "fantasy" being "not real" can be a mishmash of any thing you like. Anything at all. So what's the problem of showing a society set in some kind of primitive world, yet displaying some modern attitudes and beliefs?


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## Kenneth Logan Jr.

Ankari said:


> So true.  That is why I enjoy reading some Conan novels.  I also wonder why authors haven't, until Martin, modeled their societies after the true middle ages.  They take the swords, the armor, the castles, the dress and the food, but never social norms such as relationships and such.



Yeah weird, if I put my story in the middle ages then I would make sure to research how they perform their daily lives in that setting.

This kind of post thread that I revel in because I need sterotypes to make fun of when I write my comic fantasy.


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## Devor

Christopher Wright said:


> I don't get the modern thing. Why do people read stories? So they can be impressed with your grasp of middle-english sexual mores? Well, some, maybe, but for the most part people are reading fantasy to be entertained, and "fantasy" being "not real" can be a mishmash of any thing you like. Anything at all. So what's the problem of showing a society set in some kind of primitive world, yet displaying some modern attitudes and beliefs?



It's not the "modern" thing that's necessarily the problem, it's that the character's personality isn't really derived from his life in your world.  It stalls your character's development if you don't understand where his personality came from, and eventually the character will appear shallow in comparison to a work which can show a full understanding of the character's development.


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## Ailith

> I also wonder why authors haven't, until Martin, modeled their societies after the true middle ages. They take the swords, the armor, the castles, the dress and the food, but never social norms such as relationships and such.



Are you saying that Martin's characters are realistic, or historically accurate? I would agree that they act in a very realistic human way (sometimes even too much... do I really need to know every time someone drips bacon grease on their chin?), but I would not say that his characters are always socially or relationally accurate to a Medieval setting.


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## Ankari

Christopher Wright said:


> I don't get the modern thing. Why do people read stories? So they can be impressed with your grasp of middle-english sexual mores? Well, some, maybe, but for the most part people are reading fantasy to be entertained, and "fantasy" being "not real" can be a mishmash of any thing you like. Anything at all. So what's the problem of showing a society set in some kind of primitive world, yet displaying some modern attitudes and beliefs?



There is nothing wrong with it, but to assume that all societies function with the same security as the modern day is too hard to grasp.  There is all this danger in the world, all this evil yet no one is paranoid of that hulking man with the unwashed and unshaved face, a great sword, and armor that looks like a tiger used him as a scratch post?  Have modern day sexual norms, but have a reason why they exist.  Isn't that one of the problems with bad authors?  They force something into their story just for the sake of having it in their story?

Also, I think authors are afraid of being flagged as inappropriate if they dare to write about a social sexual attitudes that are not found in the reader's modern society.  I am in no way asking for authors to go into graphic detail concerning sexual interactions.  I would rather just have it alluded to, or have the genders acknowledge their intentions or paranoia.  

You can take the example of The Wheel of Time.  In all respects, the Two Rivers is like any picturesque village of the middle ages.  Yet they don't blink an eye when three unmarried men and three unmarried women leave their village?  No chaperon?  I understand that fantasy is completely make believe, but a story that sounds fake _is_ fake.  Justify why the genders feel so confident in how they interact, don't just state it.


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## Kenneth Logan Jr.

Ailith said:


> Are you saying that Martin's characters are realistic, or historically accurate? I would agree that they act in a very realistic human way (sometimes even too much... do I really need to know every time someone drips bacon grease on their chin?), but I would not say that his characters are always socially or relationally accurate to a Medieval setting.



I guess I should have said historically accurate, because yeah its not always accurate to the Medieval setting.


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## Steerpike

I don't mind the modern sensibilities if that's what an author wants to include. I like the other sensibilities (e.g. Conan) as well. I don't think you really need an explanation for the modern actions and sensibilities of the characters. I think you'd get bogged down in a needless aside trying to pinpoint exactly how all that arises in a medieval setting, and it would also end up being framed in the context of the real medieval setting on earth and how the fantasy setting differs in a way that allows modern sensibilities. But a fantasy world, even one having a medieval level of technology, does not have to reflect to sensibilities or morals of that of earth's history to begin with, so if it deviates from it I don't think it has to be justified.

Just a thought or two.


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## Ankari

Ailith said:


> Are you saying that Martin's characters are realistic, or historically accurate? I would agree that they act in a very realistic human way (sometimes even too much... do I really need to know every time someone drips bacon grease on their chin?), but I would not say that his characters are always socially or relationally accurate to a Medieval setting.



They are not completely accurate, but you can see many norms and realities of the middle ages in the Seven Kingdoms.  Even the most outlandish cultures seem to be an exaggeration or modification of some culture found in the world during the middle ages.


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## Mindfire

1. The One Chick Who Is Always Right. (Leia, Arwen, Katara, Cheetara, Princess Cimorene, Wendy from Peter Pan, etc.)
2. The mentor who instructs the hero and helps him to reach his true potential- AND THEN DIES.
3. The woman who pretends to be a man.
4. The warrior chick who will only sleep with a man who can defeat her in single combat.
4b. The amazonian society who despise all men, except the hero, whose pants they greatly desire to gain entrance to.
5. Evil Emperors always die. Evil Empresses may be offered a chance for redemption. 
6. The hero who refuses to strike a woman... even when said woman has absolutely no qualms with stabbing him in the face.
7. Everything MUST be done the hard way. No exceptions.


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## Kenneth Logan Jr.

Steerpike said:


> I don't mind the modern sensibilities if that's what an author wants to include. I like the other sensibilities (e.g. Conan) as well. I don't think you really need an explanation for the modern actions and sensibilities of the characters. I think you'd get bogged down in a needless aside trying to pinpoint exactly how all that arises in a medieval setting, and it would also end up being framed in the context of the real medieval setting on earth and how the fantasy setting differs in a way that allows modern sensibilities. But a fantasy world, even one having a medieval level of technology, does not have to reflect to sensibilities or morals of that of earth's history to begin with, so if it deviates from it I don't think it has to be justified.
> 
> Just a thought or two.



That's a good point!


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## Ailith

Ankari said:


> They are not completely accurate, but you can see many norms and realities of the middle ages in the Seven Kingdoms.  Even the most outlandish cultures seem to be an exaggeration or modification of some culture found in the world during the middle ages.



Right - Martin took selected aspects of a Medieval society, other authors use different aspects. Exaggerating, tweaking, and mixing is what makes it fantasy. I just don't think Martin is breaking ground in this area, or being more historically accurate than many other writers (more realistic, on the other hand, yes). I love his books - and part of the reason for that is his well thought out world.


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## Ailith

Mindfire said:


> 1. The One Chick Who Is Always Right. (Leia, Arwen, Katara, Cheetara, Princess Cimorene, Wendy from Peter Pan, etc.)



YES! One of my favorite episodes of Avatar is the Ember Island Players. The characters see a play based on them, and they are all terribly exaggerated - which highlights Katara's role as the "one chick who is always right." (and a little emotional...)

Mindfire, you're going to make me tear-bend from laughing so hard at your list.


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## Ankari

> and part of the reason for that is his well thought out world.



And that is my point.  Its more thought out.  It takes human motives, whether they are individual or collective, into account.  It creates flawed heroes that indulge in their desires and villains that adhere to a strict moral code.  It takes into account that a women traveling alone through a war torn country is an easy target and should have a chaperon.  It speaks of arranged marriages and princes that seek the pleasing of the heart over their house.  The list goes on and on.  

This stuff is _real_ and you don't find it in many fantasy novels.  All I am saying that that the most believable lie has the most truth in it.  For me, fantasy is the same.  The most believable fantasy story has the most realistic aspects in it, especially in reference to character and cultural development.


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## Ailith

Ankari said:


> All I am saying that that the most believable lie has the most truth in it.



Well said


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## Ankari

Mindfire said:


> 1. The One Chick Who Is Always Right. (Leia, Arwen, Katara, Cheetara, Princess Cimorene, Wendy from Peter Pan, etc.)
> 2. The mentor who instructs the hero and helps him to reach his true potential- AND THEN DIES.
> 4. The warrior chick who will only sleep with a man who can defeat her in single combat.
> 4b. The amazonian society who despise all men, except the hero, whose pants they greatly desire to gain entrance to.
> 5. Evil Emperors always die. Evil Empresses may be offered a chance for redemption.
> 6. The hero who refuses to strike a woman... even when said woman has absolutely no qualms with stabbing him in the face.
> 7. Everything MUST be done the hard way. No exceptions.



To get back on track....

Those were funny.  Number 6 made me think of Rand Al Thor and how, as a teenager, I was angry at him for being stupid when Moraine died because he "refused to hit a girl."  In this case it was Lanfear and she was trying to kill him.   Number 7 is funny because its always true.


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## Legendary Sidekick

The MC doesn't have any experience in combat, but somehow manages to avoid making phenomenally bad decisions that get lots of his own guys killed.
3 vs. 300. The 3 win.
The reader must know the sexual history of the female lead. Virgin, slut, widow, former prostitute, sexual abuse victim, or still can't let go of her only former lover who either died or became one of the top three antagonists? If you don't know yet, wait 5 pages.
The scoundrel is TOLD as having a history of doing scoundrelly things, but he's SHOWN as being a really selfless guy who's ready to give up his life of philandering, murder, and farting at the table in mixed company, and the only thing he's smuggling now is the heart of gold in his ribcage.
The MC and his friends are lovable. Even when they're chopping up orcs and making jokes about it, don't you just love their cute banter?
Rapists or would-be rapists get hit below the belt in such a way that something comes off. I'm not complaining about this one, to be honest. Just saying the torso is an easier target.
The good guy is at a tavern and his very presence results in a drunken brawl. He says, "I'm not looking for trouble." Well, what the hell is he doing in a tavern then?
The hero says something. Another good guy doesn't listen; therefore, he dies.
The hero is the only useful person in the party. Everyone else is meat waiting to die.
There's a little kid. This is the only character who is guaranteed to not die.


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## Devor

Legendary Sidekick said:


> There's a little kid. This is the only character who is guaranteed to not die.



Ha!  I've a story where I killed the kid.  And I made the good guy do it.

*sigh*  I'm never getting rid of that "barbarian" tag.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Nice! That's what he gets for being a kid in a medieval fantasy, thinking he can play with swords and make all the schoolgirls scream when he tells them what an intestine looks like.

But... did anyone besides Reaver call you a barbarian? I imagine you talk like Peter Dinklage.


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## Rhi Paille

You guys are AWESOME. 

On another note, my YA Fantasy novel does contain some stereotypes, but if it didn't, it wouldn't be fantasy or YA. Ha, amusing how that works huh?


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## Mindfire

Devor said:


> Ha!  I've a story where I killed the kid.  And I made the good guy do it.
> 
> *sigh*  I'm never getting rid of that "barbarian" tag.



What Legendary Sidekick should have said was: "There's a little kid. This is the only character who is guaranteed to not die- unless the author is a soulless monster."


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## Rhi Paille

Also, I may just leave this panel open forum and let the people attending have at it. We could likely come up with a lot! 

Here's my top 10:

1) There's ALWAYS a prophecy. 
1b) That prophecy is always revealed at the beginning of the story and by the end of the story it's been fulfilled. 
2) The nobody hero of the story is found by the wizard or wise man or whatever. 
3) There's ALWAYS a pretty girl the Hero can't have.
4) Someone is drinking mead, or having a contest about who can drink the most mead. 
5) No matter what the Hero goes through he never stops being the Hero.
6) It's always an impossible quest for the holy grail, or some item like the holy grail. (even Harry Potter)
7) The Hero is the ONLY one who can stop the catastrophe and they have some awesome power awaken at the last second to do it. 
8) Someone always plays the fool, jester or the part of comic relief. 
9) The villain monologues, saying what he will do but never does it. 
10) The villain always loses. 

What am I guilty of doing you say? After reading this:

1) Characters manipulating fire (because it's the easiest element to manipulate telekinetically)
2) A Quest (in book two and it's sort of by default. Krishani refuses to be what the elders want him to be and instead goes on his quest.)
3) Yeah there are Elders, but they're not Wizards. (just elders . . . warriors, or lorekeepers, or Lords.)
4) Yes there are Elvens, and yes they're smart. (but they can't actually fall in love, it's unheard of for them.)
5) Both my MC's are chosen ones. (but one of them has been chosen to follow death as a Ferryman and the other is considered chosen but turns out to be a cataclysmic weapon that could cause the apocalypse.)

 And I agree with EVERYONE regarding the historical part comments. I did a lot of research, into celtic myth, norse myth, customs and traditions, not to mention time lines, all BEFORE I moved my characters from their high fantasy home on the island of Avristar (which also had well thought out customs, topography, factions, etc.) to Terra (Earth in 7000BCE, Scotland)

*cough* I also have a lot of trouble reading any epic/high fantasy despite writing it. 

*sigh* I'm going to start a new thread.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Rhi Paille said:


> You guys are AWESOME.
> 
> On another note, my YA Fantasy novel does contain some stereotypes, but if it didn't, it wouldn't be fantasy or YA. Ha, amusing how that works huh?


No worries. I'm guilty of half my list.

Exceptions:

I'm too pro-sidekick to do this...


> 9. The hero is the only useful person in the party.



And I once went out of my way to defy this...


> 1. The MC doesn't have any experience in combat, but somehow manages to avoid making phenomenally bad decisions that get lots of his own guys killed.


...by writing this...

(Info dump: MC is really hard to kill. The demon is a football-field-sized yellow eye that hovers high in the air and controls an army of possessed men. There's a healer named Sloth.)


“Archers!” I shout. “Fire at the demon eye on my command!”

One archer snaps, “Who died and made you boss?”

Another points to a dead archer by the wall and whispers, “He did.”

The first archer holds his hat over his heart.

Oh dear. “Yeah, guys... uh, sorry about your commanding officer. But we can avenge him by _firing at the demon eye on my command!”_

The archers cheer and fire their arrows straight up in the air _without _awaiting my command. But as long as they all shoot at the same time, it’s just as effective.

Oh.

Which is to say, the arrows are _ineffective.
_
None of them even reach the demon. And now the arrows are heading down toward us. One bounces off my head... I can only guess where several others end up.

I notice Sloth sadly shaking his head. “I can save _most _of them.”

“Aw, c’mon! _My _idea can’t get people killed!”


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## Benjamin Clayborne

Ankari said:


> You can take the example of The Wheel of Time.  In all respects, the Two Rivers is like any picturesque village of the middle ages.  Yet they don't blink an eye when three unmarried men and three unmarried women leave their village?  No chaperon?



I'm going to nitpick here, so if any readers aren't interested in minute debates about the Wheel of Time, feel free to skip this post. 

I don't know how long it's been since you've read _The Eye of the World_, but they blink quite a lot of eyes when the kids leave Emond's Field.

For one thing, the village was attacked by Trollocs and a Myrddraal, which up until that point everyone in town had considered to be mythical nonsense. (Well, everyone except a couple of people, like Tam al'Thor, who had been out to the wider world.) An Aes Sedai (Moiraine) is there to explain what happened and point out that it might be best if the targets of the attack (Rand, Mat, Perrin) leave the village. Ignorant backwoods villagers don't argue with Aes Sedai. Egwene goes because Moiraine determines that Egwene can channel, and while Tar Valon is a long ways from Emond's Field, it's not really something you can turn down; the White Tower insists that all female channelers be brought to the Tower for, at least, basic training. Egwene's parents are worried about her, but she wants to go, and _everyone's_ freaked out by the Trolloc attack.

Second, I'm not sure who you mean by "three unmarried women," as there's only two (unless you're counting Moiraine, but she's 42 years old at that point in the story, and in any event is not from Emond's Field). "No chaperone" isn't true in any sense–Nynaeve chases after them later and catches up pretty quick, and she (being the village's Wisdom) functions as a chaperone (even though she's not especially effective at it). There's also three full-grown adults with the party: Moirane Damodred, Lan Mandragoran (her Warder), and Thom Merrilin, a gleeman. As far as the villagers are concerned, the kids are well-protected.


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## Jabrosky

Steerpike said:


> Elves are graceful and revering of nature.



I've always hated stereotypical fantasy elves such as those. They are the Gary Stus of fantasy races because they're supposed to be so superior at everything. On the other hand, I've always felt sorry for orcs and never liked it that they were traditionally cast as the bad guys.

I once wrote a story (which you can view here if you're interested) in which the elves were the bad guys and orcs the more sympathetic faction. The human protagonists start fighting in service of the elves at first, but later switch sides after a conflict of consciences.


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## Ankari

It has been a long time since I read _The Eye of the World_, so thanks for the refresher.  But even in your breakdown you still have three unmarried women (with Nynaeve being the third I had in mind) and three unmarried men going along with someone they do not trust (Moraine).  Nynaeve can hardly be considered a chaperon because a) she's unmarried and b) she wasn't sent, she followed.  An unmarried country village woman running off into the wild with Trollocs and Mydraal about!  

 I completely forgot about Thom and Lan being there as well.  So eventually you have 3 unmarried women from the village around 5 unmarried men!  What?

Your post just reminds me that I should reread that book.  The first 4 in the series were great.


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## ArielFingolfin

I like to play a game called I Spy an Expendable character. Usually it's pretty easy to guess who's going to die, and you know their death is going to push the hero to limits he never before would have reached. 

Speaking of the hero, why must  he almost always be a man?


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## JBryden88

I think I might have one stereotype in total for my current project.

That's the mentor.

Except he isn't eccentric, he's not too old (middle aged), and he's not destined to die, and is quite imperfect, and by the end his relationship with the main character has become so frayed they might even be close to becoming enemies >.>


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## Mindfire

ArielFingolfin said:


> I like to play a game called I Spy an Expendable character. Usually it's pretty easy to guess who's going to die, and you know their death is going to push the hero to limits he never before would have reached.
> 
> Speaking of the hero, why must  he almost always be a man?



Because women are harder to write. And before you shoot me, twas a _female_ writer who told me that.


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## Jabrosky

Mindfire said:


> Because women are harder to write. And before you shoot me, a _female_ writer who told me that.



Considering that one has to balance characterization with avoiding the charge of sexism, I'm not surprised. Also, unless you want to take creative liberties with medieval gender roles, women have less "exciting" jobs than men.


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## ArielFingolfin

Mindfire said:


> Because women are harder to write. And before you shoot me, a _female_ writer who told me that.


No, I agree completely. But I think fantasy has been a little too lost in the knight in shining armor/ damsel in distress stereotype.


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## Kit

Rhi Paille said:


> 9) The villain monologues, saying what he will do but never does it.
> .



 I HATE the villain monologue. If I don't know by the story's climax what your villain is doing and why s/he's doing it, you've messed up.  Double penalty if the great climactic battle somehow conveniently pauses while the villian is about to win, so that the villian can explain hirself. Then the whole thing suddenly turns around and the hero wins instead. Arrgh!


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## Kit

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Second, I'm not sure who you mean by "three unmarried women," as there's only two (unless you're counting Moiraine, but she's 42 years old at that point in the story.QUOTE]
> 
> Does the fact that she's 42 cancel out the fact that she is unmarried, or the fact that she is a woman? Or both?
> 
> Geez, I'm getting close.... now I have to worry about abruptly morphing into a married man on my 42nd b-day.... errgh...


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## ArielFingolfin

Kit said:


> I HATE the villain monologue. If I don't know by the story's climax what your villain is doing and why s/he's doing it, you've messed up.  Double penalty if the great climactic battle somehow conveniently pauses while the villian is about to win, so that the villian can explain hirself. Then the whole thing suddenly turns around and the hero wins instead. Arrgh!



That's why when you have your enemy in a corner, for goodness sake, kille them! Don't stand there talking about it! Drives me up the wall!


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## BWFoster78

> Because women are harder to write. And before you shoot me, a female writer who told me that.



I'm finding this to be quite true.  I've had an easy time getting inside the head of my main male leads, but I'm still struggling on the females.  I've got one, I think, figured out, but the other two are sketchy.

I think it's kind of like actors vs. actresses.  Tom Cruise is Tom Cruise in any role he plays.  He has the same character traits.  Nicole Kidman, however, morphs into whatever the role calls for.


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## Kit

ArielFingolfin said:


> That's why when you have your enemy in a corner, for goodness sake, kille them! Don't stand there talking about it! Drives me up the wall!



There is no reason why you cannot deliver your villainous manifesto to your enemy's corpse. Much safer and more practical that way. S/he won't be interrupting you, either.


----------



## Benjamin Clayborne

Ankari said:


> It has been a long time since I read _The Eye of the World_, so thanks for the refresher.  But even in your breakdown you still have three unmarried women (with Nynaeve being the third I had in mind) and three unmarried men going along with someone they do not trust (Moraine).  Nynaeve can hardly be considered a chaperon because a) she's unmarried and b) she wasn't sent, she followed.  An unmarried country village woman running off into the wild with Trollocs and Mydraal about!
> 
> I completely forgot about Thom and Lan being there as well.  So eventually you have 3 unmarried women from the village around 5 unmarried men!  What?



I never got the impression that unmarried people spending time together was some sort of huge social faux pas in Randland, especially not when there are extenuating circumstances. Yeah, Thom and Lan are "unmarried men" but Lan is around 45 years old, and Thom is even older than that; I don't think anyone's concerned that something untoward might happen to the young folks on their account. Also Lan's a Warder; having one of them accompany your virgin daughter would be about as dangerous to her chastity as having a Jedi along.

Nynaeve can quite definitely be considered a chaperone; village Wisdoms were positions of high authority and respect, and nobody would dare tell one (especially not Nynaeve, who would rip you a new asshole) that she wasn't fit to be around unmarried men out in the wilderness.

And I don't think they "don't trust" Moiraine; they don't know her very well, sure, but she's Aes Sedai, who are highly respected even if they're mistrusted. And it's the best choice they have, considering that the alternative is to stick around Emond's Field and possibly get killed by Trollocs.

And even _if_ it's a lousy situation, it's still not true that the other townsfolk "didn't blink an eye." The parental types in EF were still really scared and upset that their children were leaving, but they didn't really have a choice.


----------



## Aravelle

YESYESYES.

I'm especially fed up with elves and dwarves. I refuse to use them. Although I'm guilty of the pretty heroine... :X


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## Aravelle

Also, there's a lot of royalty. Such as the hero finding out he has noble blood, or he starts off as one. For once, why can't his dad just be a innkeeper?

Many bastard children/orphans/children with one parent. -___- 

And thieves. Thieves as a whole are kinda overrused. Can't say I've read many books with them in it, but there's more than I find comfortable.


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## Aravelle

I agree. Women are much harder to write, and it's hard to keep them from having their own set of cliches- being an archer, being a princess, etc.


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## Ireth

Aravelle said:


> Also, there's a lot of royalty. Such as the hero finding out he has noble blood, or he starts off as one. For once, why can't his dad just be a innkeeper?
> 
> Many bastard children/orphans/children with one parent. -___-
> 
> And thieves. Thieves as a whole are kinda overrused. Can't say I've read many books with them in it, but there's more than I find comfortable.



I've defied all three in my vampire novel. XD The hero has both his parents, and they both love him; his parents are shepherds; and he makes a point of not stealing unless it's absolutely necessary for survival. What he gains, he earns.


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## Sheilawisz

Well, now I have to accept that the readers can find a lot of Royalty in my otherwise low-stereotype Fantasy stories, since the protagonist of my first series is a Mage Princess (later a Queen) the same happens with the protagonist of my second series and I have the same all over again in my Joan of England story!!

I am obsessed with Royalty...

Another thing that it seems has not been mentioned so far, are the Medieval Settings so common in many Fantasy series =)


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## Mindfire

Aravelle said:


> Also, there's a lot of royalty. Such as the hero finding out he has noble blood, or he starts off as one. For once, why can't his dad just be a innkeeper?
> 
> Many bastard children/orphans/children with one parent. -___-
> 
> And thieves. Thieves as a whole are kinda overrused. Can't say I've read many books with them in it, but there's more than I find comfortable.



We write royals because just about all of us, deep down inside, want to be one. There are some philosophical implications we could explore there, but whatever. As for thieves, they have a different kind of allure. The idea of someone who gets what they want through wit, charm, and resourcefulness is attractive. Also, thieves are ambiguous enough that they can make interesting heroes, or great sympathetic villains. Characters like Robin Hood, Arsene Lupin, and Carmen Sandiego are icons because of that.

In my book I'm two for two on those. My protagonist is a royal, but he starts out as a thief/vigilante. I think it works in a fairly unique way for him, stereotype or not.


----------



## Saigonnus

I have a WIP where the MC starts as a lowly type (he inherited his father's farm when he died) but he doesn't do much with it beyond leasing his fields to neighbors and caring for a bit of livestock. He finds a girl injured on the road (literally) and tends her. I have it somewhat planned out and one thing I probably won't be doing is making them love interests; maybe it starts, but she comes from a very strict culture and she wouldn't be able to "date" an outsider. I notice how many fantasy novels have that scenario; boy meets girl, boy does something to help girl, girl develops feelings, boy reciprocates and usually it causes drama in the story; she gets kidnapped or he is taken prisoner unless she goes with the bad guy.

My story probably won't have the presence of thieves in it (not that they don't exist, just that I choose not to use them) since there aren't any locks to pick in a forest or chests to open where the bad guys conveniently store their goodies. Certainly won't be any bards either... or old men who only show up here and there to advice the protagonist. I try not to use clichÃ©s, but with most good stories it is almost inevitable that something you write can be construed as clichÃ©.


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## Saigonnus

Ailith said:


> 1. The young hero who starts out as a whiny inexperienced bumpkin, and ends up a powerful wielder of some power he never knew he possessed.
> 2. The old eccentric mentor who sets the hero on his path.
> 3. The initially skeptical damsel, who has super skills, but for some reason will still need to be rescued at some point.
> 4. The epic bad guy whose name is super scary sounding.
> 5. The surprise relation. “Luke... I AM your father.”
> 6. The ancient prophecy that singles out our hero as the only person who can take down epic bad guy.
> 7. The scary witch/voodoo/swamp lady who scares everyone else but for some reason helps the hero.
> 8. The somewhat ridiculous bard who is there so the author can slip in some “poetry.”
> 9. The elf/human romance.
> 10. The item that the hero thinks is useless, but carries around anyway for 967 pages until he realizes that it’s what he needed all along to save the world! Lucky, that.



Lets see how my main WIP stacks up.

1. He is  farmer (inherited when his father passed) but he is GIVEN power and has to learn to use it on the fly, rather than having it the whole time. 
2. Non-existant and I think the scenario is silly; considering Elminster (the prototypical example) could do what he is sending other people and probably without much effort at all. 
3. My "Damsel in distress" starts off that way, needing to basically be scraped off the road, but a different female character gets stuck in a kind of mental trap and needs to be shown the way back. 
4. The antagonist (the lord of the Maki Hara) is a bit of an illusion, considering he doesn't exist, but was fabricated by the Council of Psions as a figurehead. 
5. Doesn't happen since the MC's father dies before the story even begins. 
6. He isn't the only one, but he happened to be in the right place at the right time (or maybe wrong place at the wrong time is more accurate). If he fails, time will continue turning, the world will be decidedly gloomier, but he wasn't "prophesied" for anything. 
7. Doesn't happen.
8. Not this one either. I don't emply bards or thieves in my story since there aren't any locks needing to be picked or chests holding the bad guys goodies. 
9. No elves... no human/elf romance.
10. He and his party lose pretty much everything they have during the adventure... and his traits are such that if he found something he'd consider worthless, he'd toss it without a second thought.


----------



## Ireth

Ailith said:


> 1. The young hero who starts out as a whiny inexperienced bumpkin, and ends up a powerful wielder of some power he never knew he possessed.
> 2. The old eccentric mentor who sets the hero on his path.
> 3. The initially skeptical damsel, who has super skills, but for some reason will still need to be rescued at some point.
> 4. The epic bad guy whose name is super scary sounding.
> 5. The surprise relation. “Luke... I AM your father.”
> 6. The ancient prophecy that singles out our hero as the only person who can take down epic bad guy.
> 7. The scary witch/voodoo/swamp lady who scares everyone else but for some reason helps the hero.
> 8. The somewhat ridiculous bard who is there so the author can slip in some “poetry.”
> 9. The elf/human romance.
> 10. The item that the hero thinks is useless, but carries around anyway for 967 pages until he realizes that it’s what he needed all along to save the world! Lucky, that.



Let's see how mine stack up:

_Winter's Queen_ and _Summer's Blood_

1. Nope. My normal human characters STAY normal human characters.
2. Nope. Unless you count my rhyming Pooka, who's presumably at least a few hundred years old. He sets Vincent and Dom on their way to finding Ariel.
3. I dunno if Ariel counts as skeptical, and she's pretty unskilled. Manages to save herself about as often as she's saved by others.
4. Hm... are Fiachra and Madoc Morfryn particularly scary?
5. Uh, kinda. "Luke, I want to be your father!"
6. Noooooope. No prophecies at all.
7. Nope.
8. I have a Pooka who spouts poetry (see #2), but ALL of his dialogue is in rhyme, and he's not a bard.
9. How about a Fae/human lust/hate relationship?
10. Nuh-uh! No MacGuffins here.

_Low Road_:

1. Uh, sorta. Olan doesn't quite stay a bumpkin, but he never whines. And he does learn to use his MacGuffin, but any other vampire could use it just as well, so there's nothing too special about him using it.
2. Well, he is old (about 180), but he doesn't look it, and he's not really eccentric.
3. No distressed damsels here. ^^
4. The scariness of the name "Conall" my be a matter of opinion.
5. There's probably going to be at least one.
6. Again, no prophecies at all.
7. Nope.
8. Nope again.
9. Well, there's a Fae/human romance, but it's in the backstory, and it's not the main character.
10. Yup, there's definitely one of those. He doesn't think it's useless though; it's just MORE useful than it seems at first.


----------



## Sheilawisz

Now let's try with my first Fantasy series:

1- My "heroine" is twenty years old when the story starts, but she's a Mage princess from the beginning. Well, I accept that after all she ends up having more power than she ever imagined.

2- Her dead mother's best friend is kind of a mentor sometimes.

3- Non-existant.

4- There is a powerful "dark lord" kind of character with a scary name, but she's like a legend and a background problem that nobody seems to really worry about.

5- Non-existant.

6- No prophecy, and in the end she takes down no bad guy: My heroine is kind of evil and a murderess herself.

7- Non-existant.

8- Non-existant.

9- No elves, no humans and no love story between different species.

10- Her favourite flute ends up being really important.


----------



## Jess A

Sheilawisz said:


> Well, now I have to accept that the readers can find a lot of Royalty in my otherwise low-stereotype Fantasy stories, since the protagonist of my first series is a Mage Princess (later a Queen) the same happens with the protagonist of my second series and I have the same all over again in my Joan of England story!!
> 
> I am obsessed with Royalty...
> 
> Another thing that it seems has not been mentioned so far, are the Medieval Settings so common in many Fantasy series =)



I like royalty and nobility too. There will certainly be royalty in my book. I also like commoners and 'middle-class' or merchants and the like. A bit of a mix makes me happy, as does having a good balance of both genders.


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## shangrila

Ailith said:


> 1. The young hero who starts out as a whiny inexperienced bumpkin, and ends up a powerful wielder of some power he never knew he possessed.
> 2. The old eccentric mentor who sets the hero on his path.
> 3. The initially skeptical damsel, who has super skills, but for some reason will still need to be rescued at some point.
> 4. The epic bad guy whose name is super scary sounding.
> 5. The surprise relation. “Luke... I AM your father.”
> 6. The ancient prophecy that singles out our hero as the only person who can take down epic bad guy.
> 7. The scary witch/voodoo/swamp lady who scares everyone else but for some reason helps the hero.
> 8. The somewhat ridiculous bard who is there so the author can slip in some “poetry.”
> 9. The elf/human romance.
> 10. The item that the hero thinks is useless, but carries around anyway for 967 pages until he realizes that it’s what he needed all along to save the world! Lucky, that.


I'll see how mine goes;
1. My MC has been a soldier all his life and is middle aged
2. Uh...a bunch of old dudes exile him from his home. Would that count?
3. The damsel is smart but physically weak. She has no special skills, though she does this one thing, at night...*ahem*.
4. The bad guy's name is the Red Scarf. Doesn't sound scary to me.
5. His love interest is the bad guy's sister.
6. No prophecy, he just likes killing people.
7. Nope.
8. God no. I suck at writing poetry, I'll do anything to avoid it.
9. Nope. I don't even have elves.
10. Nope. He has a sword, shield and that's enough to get him through most problems.


----------



## Jess A

Hmm I've picked a couple to test my story against. let's see how I fare (I'm very conscious and wary of stereotypes, but I deliberately use them if I think it serves the story or my audience...or me...).



Ankari said:


> Well, nothing official but here is my list:
> 
> 
> That there are exclusively evil races (orcs, troll, etc)
> That the "good" side suffer emotional setbacks but are generally immortal.
> That evil manifests itself physically (ie bent back of a warlock, the blind eye of an evil priest, etc)
> That the good side seem to lack such deformities.
> That evil is bent on destroying the world (really?  Why?  So it can have power over nothing?)
> That an object is the key to overcoming the great evil (think of King Arthur or Rand)
> That good characters are free of moral flaws
> The "Haven."  Every protaginist flees to some haven to either heal or increase their strength before the vanquish evil.
> That the guards who stand in front of any room are really just scarecrows dressed in armor (Why do guards die so fast?  Why do they never seem to suspect their eminent death?)
> That the hero has modest roots, usually as a farmer or shepherd.




*That there are exclusively evil races (orcs, troll, etc)*
No evil races in mine. At this point in my plotting/writing, there are only humans (some with quirks). There are other races to be introduced later, but I don't know what yet and they will not be aligned to good or evil any more than humans are.
*That the "good" side suffer emotional setbacks but are generally immortal.*
Do you mean main characters? No immortality there. 
*That evil manifests itself physically (ie bent back of a warlock, the blind eye of an evil priest, etc)*
Oh I love a tall, gaunt, scary man. But remembering that these traits are enhanced through the eyes of those who are afraid of them, and not necessarily through the eyes of people who know nothing about the 'evil' person. Most of the baddies just look like normal people, but I confess to a tall gaunt creep with bony fingers.
*That the good side seem to lack such deformities.*
I try to keep it level on both sides if there are any deformities
*That evil is bent on destroying the world (really?  Why?  So it can have power over nothing?)*
Not destroy the world, change it to what they feel comfortable in
*That an object is the key to overcoming the great evil (think of King Arthur or Rand)*
No object
*That good characters are free of moral flaws*
There are moral flaws. Nobody is friggin perfect.
*The "Haven."  Every protaginist flees to some haven to either heal or increase their strength before the vanquish evil.*
No haven.
*That the guards who stand in front of any room are really just scarecrows dressed in armor (Why do guards die so fast?  Why do they never seem to suspect their eminent death?)*
Ah, the poor cannon-fodder guards. I try to avoid that, but I have to work on giving them more personality. 
*That the hero has modest roots, usually as a farmer or shepherd.*
The main protagonists so far are all of noble households, though I haven't finished with characters (there are others in different parts of the storyline) and have some commoners/merchants too. I think it's obvious I haven't gotten that far into my book...




Ailith said:


> 1. The young hero who starts out as a whiny inexperienced bumpkin, and ends up a powerful wielder of some power he never knew he possessed.
> 2. The old eccentric mentor who sets the hero on his path.
> 3. The initially skeptical damsel, who has super skills, but for some reason will still need to be rescued at some point.
> 4. The epic bad guy whose name is super scary sounding.
> 5. The surprise relation. “Luke... I AM your father.”
> 6. The ancient prophecy that singles out our hero as the only person who can take down epic bad guy.
> 7. The scary witch/voodoo/swamp lady who scares everyone else but for some reason helps the hero.
> 8. The somewhat ridiculous bard who is there so the author can slip in some “poetry.”
> 9. The elf/human romance.
> 10. The item that the hero thinks is useless, but carries around anyway for 967 pages until he realizes that it’s what he needed all along to save the world! Lucky, that.



1. Both protagonists are trained in what they do and while both have (a form of) magic, one of them was always bettering herself through training and the other guy's magic isn't that exciting. In later books, the protagonists are probably in their 30s, but they start younger (some of them...others are older).
2. No mentor for my heroes other than perhaps their parents at a stage in their lives. Some are somewhat young and improvising.
3. There is a touching scene where the male hero rescues the female...and she points out that she didn't even need rescuing. I think she is more likely to rescue people.
4. There are few baddies, but I don't know if their names are that scary or even special.
5. Definitely some revelations - I love reading those, and I love writing them as long as they aren't too lame.
6. No prophesy and there are lots of people involved in the conflict. Peasants to royalty to mages to ordinary people.
7. No witch/swamp lady as far as I've written, but I don't mind one if it's sort of made fun of...
8. No bard. Just a sort of scribe girl, but she isn't a poet or a musician.
9. No elves. I am so goddamned sick of reading about elves. No interspecies relationships, either.
10. No special Legend of Zelda item.


----------



## Ireth

Ankari said:


> Well, nothing official but here is my list:
> 
> 
> That there are exclusively evil races (orcs, troll, etc)
> That the "good" side suffer emotional setbacks but are generally immortal.
> That evil manifests itself physically (ie bent back of a warlock, the blind eye of an evil priest, etc)
> That the good side seem to lack such deformities.
> That evil is bent on destroying the world (really?  Why?  So it can have power over nothing?)
> That an object is the key to overcoming the great evil (think of King Arthur or Rand)
> That good characters are free of moral flaws
> The "Haven."  Every protaginist flees to some haven to either heal or increase their strength before the vanquish evil.
> That the guards who stand in front of any room are really just scarecrows dressed in armor (Why do guards die so fast?  Why do they never seem to suspect their eminent death?)
> That the hero has modest roots, usually as a farmer or shepherd.



Testing mine again:

_Winter's Queen_ and _Summer's Blood_:

1. Doing my best to subvert this with my Fae, esp. the Unseelie. There is at least one who is actually decent, though he has his flaws.
2. Subverting that in _Summer's Blood_, hopefully.
3. Nope. All the Fae are beautiful, whether good or bad.
4. *shrug* My protagonists are all pretty average-looking, and some of them gain scars along the way.
5. Nope. My villain wants his father's throne and kingdom, but there's no destruction of the world involved.
6. Nope.
7. Nope again. My protagonists are all flawed.
8. Nope.
9. Not really.
10. My heroine and heroes are from modern-day, middle class England, so not as modest as the typical fantasy hero/ine. 

_Low Road_:

1. Nope. My vampires are a mixed bag of good and evil.
2. Hopefully subverting this too. Though my hero is literally immortal, being a vampire.
3. Guilty of this one, and it's a major part of the story.
4. My protagonist has a physical deformity, as do his mother and sister. He may also gain some level of ugliness later on in the story.
5. No destruction motive here, just control.
6. Not quite guilty of this one. The hero's MacGuffin isn't used in the final battle, but the villain's is.
7. Doing my best to subvert this one.
8. Kinda guilty here.
9. Er, possibly.
10. Yup, my hero is the son of shepherds. He later becomes a beekeeper as well.


----------



## ArielFingolfin

And then there's the anti-royal cliche of the character coming out of nowhere and being a nobody and kicking all the royals' butts (example A: A Knight's Tale). Seems like there's no way to win that one.


----------



## Hans

An other game of happy comparing your settings? Well, let me join in.


Ailith said:


> 1. The young hero who starts out as a whiny inexperienced bumpkin, and ends up a powerful wielder of some power he never knew he possessed.
> 2. The old eccentric mentor who sets the hero on his path.
> 3. The initially skeptical damsel, who has super skills, but for some reason will still need to be rescued at some point.
> 4. The epic bad guy whose name is super scary sounding.
> 5. The surprise relation. “Luke... I AM your father.”
> 6. The ancient prophecy that singles out our hero as the only person who can take down epic bad guy.
> 7. The scary witch/voodoo/swamp lady who scares everyone else but for some reason helps the hero.
> 8. The somewhat ridiculous bard who is there so the author can slip in some “poetry.”
> 9. The elf/human romance.
> 10. The item that the hero thinks is useless, but carries around anyway for 967 pages until he realizes that it’s what he needed all along to save the world! Lucky, that.



1) Inexperienced maybe. But definitely not whiny. Her search for more knowledge and power drives the whole story.
2) I could take her selected teacher for that.
3) My main character always rescues herself, so I have to take someone else. Does Ms. "I am a genius. I am much above the ones like you. I am much to arrogant to notice any signs of danger." count?
4) No epic bad guy.No scary sounds for native speakers of the relevant language.
5) More like "I will be the father of your children". But maybe more surprising is her reaction "you got a deal".
6) Nope.
7) Yes. She is my main character. And she does help herself.
8) Nope.
9) I would have to redefine the word "Elf" for that.
10) Most of the time the only thing in her possession is her clothes. These do not help her save the world. Also the world as such is not endangered.


----------



## ArielFingolfin

Ailith said:


> 1. The young hero who starts out as a whiny inexperienced bumpkin, and ends up a powerful wielder of some power he never knew he possessed.
> 2. The old eccentric mentor who sets the hero on his path.
> 3. The initially skeptical damsel, who has super skills, but for some reason will still need to be rescued at some point.
> 4. The epic bad guy whose name is super scary sounding.
> 5. The surprise relation. “Luke... I AM your father.”
> 6. The ancient prophecy that singles out our hero as the only person who can take down epic bad guy.
> 7. The scary witch/voodoo/swamp lady who scares everyone else but for some reason helps the hero.
> 8. The somewhat ridiculous bard who is there so the author can slip in some “poetry.”
> 9. The elf/human romance.
> 10. The item that the hero thinks is useless, but carries around anyway for 967 pages until he realizes that it’s what he needed all along to save the world! Lucky, that.



Well, let's see how I stand up:

1. Not whiny, but defensive and arrogant. And that doesn't really change.
2. No mentor. I avoided that one on purpose 
3. His brother...? Nah.
4. Not really a set villian; everyone's just trying to do their own thing and fighting each other.
5. Aw crud.
6. Only if the prophecy states that the bad guys win and the heroes will be lucky to escape with all their limbs.
7. Does a blind fire witch count?
8. The soldier there to use colorful phrases that I typically avoid. 
9. Well there may be a pending bromance...
10. No, he knows all along his sword is freaking awesome.


----------



## Aravelle

Mindfire said:


> Because women are harder to write. And before you shoot me, twas a _female_ writer who told me that.



To get into the mind of a woman, it's best to consult a few. I have a female hero- but then again, I am female. I also have a male, and they end up meeting since they discover they're fighting for the same cause. They don't end up together though. No way Jose.


----------



## Aravelle

Ailith said:


> 1. The young hero who starts out as a whiny inexperienced bumpkin, and ends up a powerful wielder of some power he never knew he possessed.
> 2. The old eccentric mentor who sets the hero on his path.
> 3. The initially skeptical damsel, who has super skills, but for some reason will still need to be rescued at some point.
> 4. The epic bad guy whose name is super scary sounding.
> 5. The surprise relation. “Luke... I AM your father.”
> 6. The ancient prophecy that singles out our hero as the only person who can take down epic bad guy.
> 7. The scary witch/voodoo/swamp lady who scares everyone else but for some reason helps the hero.
> 8. The somewhat ridiculous bard who is there so the author can slip in some “poetry.”
> 9. The elf/human romance.
> 10. The item that the hero thinks is useless, but carries around anyway for 967 pages until he realizes that it’s what he needed all along to save the world! Lucky, that.



1. My male hero is a shaman. He was learning magic before there's ever a sign of danger. Even then he's average at it.
2. None.
3. My female hero needs rescuing... but she's no damsel, and in a craaazy situation not even men can escape. My other major female is never taken.
4. Actually, it's arguable my villian has the most benevolent name of all my characters.
5. There's a bit of a parentage one [as well as a "I SLEPT WITH WHO?!" one] but its not that the people who raised him aren't his biological parents. Because they are. :B
6. None.
7. My witch is actually hot and has quite the social life. xD
8. He's young and flamboyant, but not ridiculous. Like a puppy. 
9. No elves in my story. No dwarves either...except a band of midgets who think they are. 
10. Nope. I have no real magical items. A few small charms, but not the "sword of destiny" or "jewelry piece of power".


----------



## Aravelle

Ankari said:


> Well, nothing official but here is my list:
> 
> 
> That there are exclusively evil races (orcs, troll, etc)
> That the "good" side suffer emotional setbacks but are generally immortal.
> That evil manifests itself physically (ie bent back of a warlock, the blind eye of an evil priest, etc)
> That the good side seem to lack such deformities.
> That evil is bent on destroying the world (really?  Why?  So it can have power over nothing?)
> That an object is the key to overcoming the great evil (think of King Arthur or Rand)
> That good characters are free of moral flaws
> The "Haven."  Every protaginist flees to some haven to either heal or increase their strength before the vanquish evil.
> That the guards who stand in front of any room are really just scarecrows dressed in armor (Why do guards die so fast?  Why do they never seem to suspect their eminent death?)
> That the hero has modest roots, usually as a farmer or shepherd.



1. Nope.
2. Nope.
3. Noooo. My villians are generally more attractive than my heroes.
4. Nope. My female hero is handicapped in a way.
5. Nope.
6. Nope.
7. Nope. Defineeetly not.
8. Pfffft. Both good and bad could happen in anyplace like that in my world.
9. Can't say I've thought of any guards... hmm.. I'll probably try to demolish that cliche intentionally. xD
10. The female hero has respected parents, the male is also respected but neither are necessarily wealthy due to it.


----------



## Devor

Steerpike said:
			
		

> 1. Humans are the most destructive race.
> 2. The epic bad guy whose name is super scary sounding.
> 3. Good vs Evil.
> 4. Dark Lord that wants to take over the world.
> 5. Friends of the hero.
> 6. Old guy with loads of wisdom to help the hero.
> 7. Powerful objects of some kind that are important for the story.
> 8. 3 vs. 300. The 3 win.
> 9. The villain monologues, saying what he will do but never does it.
> 10. The villain always loses.
> 11. That evil manifests itself physically (ie bent back of a warlock, the blind eye of an evil priest, etc)
> 12. That evil is bent on destroying the world (really?  Why?  So it can have power over nothing?)
> 13. The "Haven."  Every protaginist flees to some haven to either heal or increase their strength before the vanquish evil.
> 14. That the hero has modest roots, usually as a farmer or shepherd.



I'm guilty of these in my WIP.

1. Humans are the only race I'm using.  Well, some spirits might be more destructive, if they count.
2. I haven't settled on the bad guy's name.  It will be impressive, but not "Dark Lord."
3. It would be hard to deny that my story is Good v. Evil, but the bad guy has his reasons.
4. He's not a Dark Lord, but he does want to take over this part of the world.
5. My hero has friends.  Yes.
6. The martial arts teacher has a clear philosophy, but doesn't play the know-it-all of a Dumbledore or Gandolf.
7. Powerful items make their appearances, but that's how magic works in this world.  There's no one all-consuming item.  Rather, the great threat comes from the way that different magics are being combined.
8. My three can kill your 300.  But I can make you believe it, so it's okay.
9. I've got notes on a monologue of what the bad guy wants to do.  Timing is everything, though, so I don't know yet how monologue-ey it will play out.
10. Is it alright if everyone loses?
11. In real life, your habits do sometimes manifest themselves physically.  That's what happens here.  But it's not a mere scar or missing eye.  The guy is totally nuts and it shows.  (He's not the main guy, though.)
12. Destroying the world is COOL!  Well, actually what he's up to is literally the opposite.  World's already broken.  But the effect is similar.
13. Is the Haven something you can avoid?
14. Hero was raised on a farm, but he was taught martial arts from an early age.  Don't know how that counts.


----------



## Steerpike

Exclusively evil race doesn't bother me. Bring 'em on.

Some of these things are part of the hero's journey, right? The wise mentor, for example. Supernatural aid (like maybe a powerful object).


----------



## ArielFingolfin

I don't think a cliche is an unforgiveable thing as long as the entire story doesn't revolve around it and there's plenty of solid writing and original plot devices to support it. Like I'm not too worried about the one cliche I nailed on the head because I went into the story knowing it was a cliche and fully intending to make it only one of the many threads that make up the story.


----------



## Sheilawisz

Now let's play with my own list of Fantasy stereotypes =)



Sheilawisz said:


> 1- Good vs Evil.
> 2- Dark Lord that wants to take over the world.
> 3- Hero that comes from a low birth and rises to power and legend.
> 4- Friends of the hero.
> 5- Old guy with loads of wisdom to help the hero.
> 6- Elves.
> 7- Dwarves.
> 8- The prophecy about the hero that would vanquish all evil.
> 9- Powerful objects of some kind that are important for the story.
> 10- Damsels in distress.
> 11- Tragic love stories.
> 12- Medieval Setting.
> 13- Evil Mages that start wars about candles and nuke cities just because they can.



1- No good vs Evil in my stories, at all!!
2- She does not care to take over anything, why would she want to?
3- My Heroine is a Mage Princess when the story starts.
4- She has indeed a group of friends that help her out =)
5- Her dead mother's best friend acts like a mentor sometimes.
6- No elves in my worlds.
7- No Dwarves either.
8- Sorry, no prophecy about her and she vanquishes no evil.
9- Her favourite flute.
10- My damsels cause the distress themselves =)
11- I do have those, but they have good ends.
12- My worlds have a higher level of technology than a Medieval setting.
13- Absolutely! XD!!


----------



## shangrila

Steerpike said:


> Exclusively evil race doesn't bother me. Bring 'em on.


I'm fine with it as long as there's a reason. The Forkrul Assail in the Malazan series, for example, are typically evil because their sense of justice means killing off the war like races (humans) to let the world heal and begin again.

Whereas, on the flip side, you've got the Orcs and Goblins of Tolkien, which seem to be evil just because they're ugly. That to me is just lame.


----------



## Steerpike

shangrila said:


> Whereas, on the flip side, you've got the Orcs and Goblins of Tolkien, which seem to be evil just because they're ugly.



I don't know that this is an accurate reading of Tolkien. Depending on which idea you like about the origin of Orcs, for example, they were either created by dark sorcery or stemmed from beings corrupted by it. They are a product of evil, and thus evil. It's not like they're a naturally-occurring race that just happens to be evil for some reason. There are other people here who will know a lot more about this than me, though.


----------



## Ireth

You've pretty much summed it up, Steerpike.


----------



## Jess A

A lot of people seem to use 'dark elves'. Feist did, but he had this big historical reason for it - I forget the specifics. 

I've never been a big fan of races which are evil - unless there is a good reason. Even then, I don't like it to be 'black and white'. I grew up reading Redwall books, and my favourite books were always those where a 'vermin' (rats, weasels, stoats, sometimes cats, foxes etc) would become kindhearted. What I sap I can be!


----------



## shangrila

Steerpike said:


> I don't know that this is an accurate reading of Tolkien. Depending on which idea you like about the origin of Orcs, for example, they were either created by dark sorcery or stemmed from beings corrupted by it. They are a product of evil, and thus evil. It's not like they're a naturally-occurring race that just happens to be evil for some reason. There are other people here who will know a lot more about this than me, though.


Yeah, I'd heard they were tortured elves or something. But, IIRC, it's kind of a hand wave explanation in LOTR. As in someone asks why they're evil and someone else (probably Gandalf) says something like "oh they were created with evil so they're all evil". 

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but that seems like a weak reason. Maybe that just has to do with how fantasy as a genre has evolved though.


----------



## Steerpike

shangrila said:


> Yeah, I'd heard they were tortured elves or something. But, IIRC, it's kind of a hand wave explanation in LOTR. As in someone asks why they're evil and someone else (probably Gandalf) says something like "oh they were created with evil so they're all evil".
> 
> I don't know, maybe it's just me, but that seems like a weak reason. Maybe that just has to do with how fantasy as a genre has evolved though.



Again this is an incorrect view of Tolkien. Far from being a hand wave, Tolkien spent a lot of time on this issue, and it shows up in his letters and other works. Tolkien didn't hand wave anything about his world. You may not like how he implemented some of it but it wasn't through lack of thinking out the various issues. Perhaps you are familiar only with the movies?

I'm not a Tolkien scholar like a few people here, but from what I do know of him and his work on The Lord of the Rings, I'm guessing he never hand-waved anything. Even something like the personality and characteristics of his dwarves (which also get labeled as cliche now, because so many have copied it) has a basis in the mythology of Middle-Earth, where they were created in one time, when a great evil (Melkor?) walked on and under Middle Earth. The dwarves were given personality traits and character that it was thought they would need given the evil that was on the land. But they were created too early, and in secret, and when it was found out they were put to sleep until such a time as it was deemed appropriate for them to be released. If you can read some of Tolkien's letters, and read the Silmarillion, I think you'll find the deepest, most thought-out fantasy world out there. There may well be aspects of it that you don't like, and don't agree with the direction Tolkien went. But hand-waved? I don't think so.


----------



## Ireth

Indeed. Even Tolkien didn't like the idea of a race being Always Chaotic Evil, since it clashed with his Christian ideology. He struggled for a long time with his orcs and various questions -- do they have souls? Where do they go when they die? I think there may have been some orcs out there who were at least halfway decent, tired of serving a master who ruled through fear and pain. Shame none of them ever showed up in the books.


----------



## Justme

How many of these, I wonder are part and parcel of just about every novel that used conflict as vehicle to float the idea behind the story?


----------



## Saigonnus

There really aren't any "evil for no reason" races that I can think of. The Uruk-hai and Nazgul were evil because they were created that way by an psychotic, evil person. That is reason enough for me. Dark Elves (traditional ones) worship an evil and vengeful goddess and her tenets shape their whole society, a good (if misguided) "excuse" to be evil. Orcs, Goblins, Ogres are all in conflict with the other humanoid and since they don't generally do alot of farming or raising livestock basically have to raid people's homes or wagons to get what they need, not evil in itself. Also I would think; like mountain lions or grizzleys, with great restrictions in territory come a desperation for what they need and I still wouldn't classify them as evil.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

ArielFingolfin said:


> I don't think a cliche is an unforgiveable thing as long as the entire story doesn't revolve around it and there's plenty of solid writing and original plot devices to support it. Like I'm not too worried about the one cliche I nailed on the head because I went into the story knowing it was a cliche and fully intending to make it only one of the many threads that make up the story.


I embrace cliches.

I hope that most of what I write will surprise the reader, and there's enough originality that the story as a whole isn't seen as cliched. But at times, a cliche or something similar to the real world just works because people automatically "get it."

Maybe a better way to put it is that I won't go out of my way to avoid a cliche. My barbarian is big, strong, impatient and a stickler to his large-quantities-of-meat-and-grog diet. Admit it. You knew all that as soon as you read the ward "barbarian." But... could I also make him a flamboyant intellectual who plays the flute to relax, just to be "original?" Or would you rather just see this guy run around with an oversized sword and perform feats of strength?


----------



## Sheilawisz

The main species from my Fantasy worlds could be considered evil in a natural way, but then... Can we say that a tiger is evil for tearing its prey apart? Are killer whales evil for what they do in the sea??

Saying that the evilness of a species comes from natural instinct is a good idea for a Fantasy series, don't you agree?


----------



## Mindfire

Legendary Sidekick said:


> I embrace cliches.
> 
> I hope that most of what I write will surprise the reader, and there's enough originality that the story as a whole isn't seen as cliched. But at times, a cliche or something similar to the real world just works because people automatically "get it."
> 
> Maybe a better way to put it is that I won't go out of my way to avoid a cliche. My barbarian is big, strong, impatient and a stickler to his large-quantities-of-meat-and-grog diet. Admit it. You knew all that as soon as you read the ward "barbarian." But... could I also make him a flamboyant intellectual who plays the flute to relax, just to be "original?" Or would you rather just see this guy run around with an oversized sword and perform feats of strength?



How about a happy medium of sorts, a barbarian who's a stalwart and corageous warrior, but also has a strict honor code and a knack for poetry and philosophy?


----------



## Jabrosky

Mindfire said:


> How about a happy medium of sorts, a barbarian who's a stalwart and corageous warrior, but also has a strict honor code and a knack for poetry and philosophy?



Such a character would be totally sweet. I like noble, soft-hearted barbarians!


----------



## DameiThiessen

The protagonist and antagonist finding out they're related.

Insanely beautiful, independent, easily angered warrior woman.

The charming, horny, comedic male character that always tries to get with the aforementioned warrior woman.

Elves with bows and arrows. It's like they've never been introduced to anything else.


----------



## Ireth

DameiThiessen said:


> The protagonist and antagonist finding out they're related.



What if they're only distantly related, and they don't actually find out about it? The villain in my vampire novel is the protagonist's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, but neither of them know it. The protagonist also runs into his immortal great-great-great-great-great-grandmother for a brief time, and neither of them recognize each other at all.


----------



## Aravelle

A cliche of sorts I'm SICK of seeing: when the characters have "cool" last names or first names, especially if its a noun. [Ex: Elaine Hawthorne]. I understand if its a title they earned [such as in Lyra "Silvertongue" Belacqua's case] or if it relates to their profession, but otherwise, it can be super annoying. Also, a name like Timothy Goldsby doesn't count. It has gold in it, but its not a flat out noun.

...Am I the only one who feels this way? ;_;


----------



## Mindfire

Aravelle said:


> A cliche of sorts I'm SICK of seeing: when the characters have "cool" last names or first names, especially if its a noun. [Ex: Elaine Hawthorne]. I understand if its a title they earned [such as in Lyra "Silvertongue" Belacqua's case] or if it relates to their profession, but otherwise, it can be super annoying. Also, a name like Timothy Goldsby doesn't count. It has gold in it, but its not a flat out noun.
> 
> ...Am I the only one who feels this way? ;_;



Hawthorne is a legit surname...


----------



## Legendary Sidekick

Mindfire said:


> How about a happy medium of sorts, a barbarian who's a stalwart and corageous warrior, but also has a strict honor code and a knack for poetry and philosophy?


Funny... I used to write a guy like that. I called him "Crommlar the Barbarian" but eventually realized he's only a barbarian in the sense that he's ultra-strong and carries a huge sword. Barbarian was more like what his class would be if he were a D&D character.

_(Now presenting the only legitimate comparison I get to make between my character and one of George R.R. Martin's...)

_Khal Drogo was an actual barbarian because he was actually barbaric. Both Crommlar and Drogo had muscles and warpaint, but Crommlar didn't need to marry a blonde teenager to realize that raping and pillaging makes you look like an *******.

_(No offense, Drogo. R.I.P.)_


----------



## Benjamin Clayborne

Aravelle said:


> A cliche of sorts I'm SICK of seeing: when the characters have "cool" last names or first names, especially if its a noun. [Ex: Elaine Hawthorne]. I understand if its a title they earned [such as in Lyra "Silvertongue" Belacqua's case] or if it relates to their profession, but otherwise, it can be super annoying. Also, a name like Timothy Goldsby doesn't count. It has gold in it, but its not a flat out noun.
> 
> ...Am I the only one who feels this way? ;_;



I agree. If it starts feeling like a comic book, I lose interest.


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## Hans

Aravelle said:


> A cliche of sorts I'm SICK of seeing: when the characters have "cool" last names or first names, especially if its a noun.


I have an unfinished story where the characters are part of a traveling circus and have funny or cool stage names of all sorts. Sometimes they call each other also offstage with these names.
They also have other ridiculous things like chainmail bikinis on stage. A wonderful thing to delve into clichÃ©s without needing to be serious about it.


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## shangrila

Mindfire said:


> How about a happy medium of sorts, a barbarian who's a stalwart and corageous warrior, but also has a strict honor code and a knack for poetry and philosophy?


Well, poetry and philosophy might not be his thing, but Logan Ninefingers fits the rest of your criteria.


----------



## Erica

-Humans and elves regard orcs and trolls etc. as ugly but orcs and trolls think elves and humans are beautiful and lust after their women.
-Dwarves are always male (or maybe the females just look like males and don't mind being called 'he.')
-Any race that spends all or most of its life underground (or is nocturnal) is evil
-Frequent references to a bygone age when magic was more powerful and fantastical creatures (like dragons) more abundant.


----------



## Hans

Erica said:


> -Any race that spends all or most of its life underground (or is nocturnal) is evil


With the possible exception of dwarfes in mountains.


----------



## Devor

Erica said:


> -Frequent references to a bygone age when magic was more powerful and fantastical creatures (like dragons) more abundant.



Oh maaan.

The references aren't all that frequent, though.  I don't know whether it even qualifies, since it's pretty specific as to exactly how and why things have changed since then, and not a vague - "Don't you miss the age of high magic?  Oh if only the wizards hadn't killed each other out for reasons that have nothing to do with the novel and don't really make sense."


----------



## Kit

I don't like it when all the unfamiliar words are in italics, as if we need a neon signpost to alert us to "HEY, here's a made-up word!"  If a character says a line in a different language than the one s/he commonly uses, italics make sense- but if this is supposedly a common word in the given culture, why treat it differently than any other common word? It comes off as pretentious to me.


----------



## Jabrosky

Erica said:


> -Humans and elves regard orcs and trolls etc. as ugly but orcs and trolls think elves and humans are beautiful and lust after their women.


Replace "humans and elves" with "white people" and "orcs and trolls" with "black people" and you see exactly why I really hate this trope.


----------



## Steerpike

Jabrosky said:


> Replace "humans and elves" with "white people" and "orcs and trolls" with "black people" and you see exactly why I really hate this trope.



Yeah, but why would you even do that?


----------



## Jabrosky

Steerpike said:


> Yeah, but why would you even do that?



I understand why that comparison may seem inappropriate and potentially offensive, but something about the whole "'evil' races lusting after the 'good' races' women" reminds me uncannily of the old racist trope of "black men all wanting to rape white women". I realize that isn't the authors' intention, and of course black people aren't an evil race like stereotypical orcs, but the coincidental similarity between the racist stereotypes and the fantasy trope still unnerves me.


----------



## Steerpike

Devor said:


> I think to attribute some degree of racism, even subconscious racism, to every race that's to be viewed in a "disgusting" light is an overreaction.



To say the least. I think it is preposterous, personally, to attach racism, subconscious or otherwise, to each such presentation of a 'race' of creatures in a fantasy setting. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest this is the case in the vast majority of such works, particularly contemporary ones. Labeling such things as a form of racism and trying to attach racial prejudices to area like this does nothing more than trivialize real racism and make it harder for evidence of real racism to be considered seriously by the public at large.


----------



## Jabrosky

Devor said:


> I think to attribute some degree of racism, even subconscious racism, to every race that's to be viewed in a "disgusting" light is an overreaction.



You may be right, although honestly the whole idea of an inherently evil race of humanoids does have racist overtones when you think about it. The trope may not be intended to slander real-world ethnic groups, so you could fairly argue that it's a harmless brand of racism that shouldn't upset us, but it still advocates that certain races are somehow inferior and less deserving of empathy to others.


----------



## Mindfire

Jabrosky said:


> You may be right, although honestly the whole idea of an inherently evil race of humanoids does have racist overtones when you think about it. The trope may not be intended to slander real-world ethnic groups, so you could fairly argue that it's a harmless brand of racism that shouldn't upset us, but it still advocates that certain races are somehow inferior and less deserving of empathy to others.



Black guy here, and I'm with Steerpike and Devor on this one. I love to hate Always Chaotic Evil races just as much as the next guy. As long as its not boring or poorly done, I think an ACE race is fair game. Best not to attach the stigma of racism to evil orcs and whatnot. Especially if they're actually evil, and not just misunderstood.


----------



## Steerpike

Mindfire said:


> Black guy here, and I'm with Steerpike and Devor on this one. I love to hate Always Chaotic Evil races just as much as the next guy. As long as its not boring or poorly done, I think an ACE race is fair game. Best not to attach the stigma of racism to evil orcs and whatnot. Especially if they're actually evil, and not just misunderstood.



I think some of it is historical. You can look at Robert E. Howard or Tolkien and see some racial depictions that are certainly products of their time. But the idea that someone writing fantasy now, or even in the last 30 or 40 years, is automatically exhibiting some conscious or subconscious racism by having orcs or evil races is a bit much.

In my WIP, the dark-skinned people are the good guys, so I suppose by this reasoning I have some subconscious racism against my own white-skinned ancestors. But I don't. 

Funny thing - I'm listening to Townes Van Zandt and the lyrics that came on just as I was writing this are too coincidental not to post:

All things in our life are brothers in the soil and in the sky,
And I believe it with my blood if not my eyes,
I don't know why we can't be brothers here, I know we should be,
Answers don't seem easy, and I'm wondering if they could be.

That pretty much sums up my viewpoint, and going to look for racism where it doesn't exist is counterproductive. It is too important a subject to trivialize in this manner.

And now I'm posting this in the what am I listening to thread


----------



## Ireth

Possible slight inversion in my novels -- the villains in _Winter's Queen_ and its sequel are all Fae, and are lighter-skinned even than the human protagonists (when they're humanoid, at least). The Fae are also not Always Chaotic Evil; for the most part they run the gamut from Lawful Neutral to Chaotic Neutral, with a couple of exceptions falling more in line with Lawful or Neutral Evil, and a couple on the other side in Lawful Neutral or Neutral Good. The closest thing I have to a Chaotic Evil group are Redcaps, and the ultimate Lawful Good would likely be unicorns (if I decide to give them sentience at all). Heck, even the heroes have their moments outside of strictly Lawful Good. Vincent, for one, is perfectly willing to break the law to get his daughter back in _Winter's Queen_, which gets him into Neutral Good for a moment. Dom also has his own moment in Lawful Neutral territory.

Unfortunately, the Fae do tend to fall into the "'evil' race lusting after the 'good' race's women" trope, but that's only because they often have no other choice if they want to bear children at all. Full-Fae children more often than not are sickly, and are swapped with human babies -- thus the stories of changelings. And it's not just human women who are prey to Fae men: many exclusively-female Fae like the Leannan Sidhe take human men for lovers.


----------



## Zak

1. The "Chosen One". Very annoying.
2. Worlds where technology never advances, even after thousands of years.
3. Horses used like cars.
4. Everyone speaks the same language.
5. Stolden races from LOTR (i.e. elves, dwarves, goblins, etc.)
6. Point-and-shoot magic.
7. The unexperienced protagonist somehow defeats an experienced supporting character in a sword fight.
8. The antagonist(s) is evil with no reason or background whatsoever.
9. Heroes who are utterly selfless and only think of the Greater Good.
10. Magic systems that change when its plot-convenient.


----------



## Jo of the South

1. The prophecy or legend that was told long ago by some wise old man of the "Chosen One" who will one day save their world from evil. (this idea has been the foundation of some great stories, but it has been done waaay to many times.)

2. the mentor character who always seems to die just when the hero needs to take charge and grow up.

3. The evil villain bent on ruling or destroying the world for no reason what so ever. (really? He has no motive at all? even the worst of people have emotions, wants, and desires. Or at the very least a reason to need to be evil.)

4. The selfless hero who fights for good solely because it is the right thing to do. (again, really? He has no true motive at all? No reason to fight?)

5. Vampires and werewolves.....can we please move on. Please! Lol

6. Elves, dwarves, orcs, trolls, and goblins. (they are a huge part of fantasy stories and are cool creatures to have in a story, but that doesn't mean you can't come up with anything new...remember at one point these were new ideas too.)

7. The damsel in distress. (maybe its because I'm a girl, but I never understood why its always the princess who is rescued by the handsome knight. Why can't the princess rescue the knight for a change?)

8. The mighty sword of greatness that was forged in magic fire by the most skilled swordmaker of all time who made said sword for the hero destined to use it to vanquish all evil because only this sword can harm the villain.

9. The journey the hero has to embark on to find the mighty sword of greatness that oh by the way was hidden in the caves of doom where a giant dragon is guarding it.

10. 2 vs 200,000 and the two win. This is soo not realistic and overdone. 

Maybe it's just me, but lately I can't seem to find to many stories without these ideas in them. I mean there great ideas, but there not the only way to write interesting plots and characters.


----------



## R.S.Robertson

I'm going to test my epic, the first book of which is _Shifting Ground_, out on two of the lists. 



Ankari said:


> Well, nothing official but here is my list:
> 
> 
> That there are exclusively evil races (orcs, troll, etc)
> That the "good" side suffer emotional setbacks but are generally immortal.
> That evil manifests itself physically (ie bent back of a warlock, the blind eye of an evil priest, etc)
> That the good side seem to lack such deformities.
> That evil is bent on destroying the world (really?  Why?  So it can have power over nothing?)
> That an object is the key to overcoming the great evil (think of King Arthur or Rand)
> That good characters are free of moral flaws
> The "Haven."  Every protaginist flees to some haven to either heal or increase their strength before the vanquish evil.
> That the guards who stand in front of any room are really just scarecrows dressed in armor (Why do guards die so fast?  Why do they never seem to suspect their eminent death?)
> That the hero has modest roots, usually as a farmer or shepherd.




I don't have any exclusively evil races, mostly because I have a hard time seeing how a race, religion or political group can be exclusively evil so I wouldn't know what to base them on.
They do suffer emotional setbacks, physical ones too... one important character is blinded in a horrific way... but they aren't immortal, I just haven't decided which ones to kill yet.
Nope.  My most evil character pretty much looks like a normal guy, the next most evil character, who is handsome in a normal way (as in he's good looking enough but wouldn't be voted sexiest man alive).  I don't care for either beautiful or ugly characters as I don't think appearance has anything at all to do with character or their worthiness to be loved or hated.
For the short version, see above.  The long version: just average people here for the most part, although some do have unique characteristics.  My two protagonists have distinct and unusual eyes.
Ummmm, yes.  But in my defense he has a really good reason!  He was the first person ever born (not created but born) and then (not for anything he ever did) he was cursed by being written out of history but have to walk through it until the world ended.
Nope, although there are objects that can help.  The caveat to my "magical" object is that they both help and harm no matter which side uses them.  It's the double-edged sward thing.
Nope.  No flaws means no character.  My "good guys" are flawed all over the place, some of them are dripping with flaws.  One of my two male protagonists is addicted to a drug similar to opium and the other has serious anger and revenge issues.  One of my female protagonists is exceedingly manipulative.
I don't think so, not really anyway.  I think though that one of my characters may be taken somewhere safe to heal after being starved, tortured and blinded.  Does that count?
Nope.  Of course, some guards are easier to deal with than others, but really, who wants to hire a wimpy guard? If you know that everyone wants to assassinate you then you're going to want to protect yourself!
Not exactly.  I have two male protagonists, twins.  (Yeah, yeah, I know but I have my reasons) they don't know about their true origins, each for different reasons, so one thinks he's just a guy from modern day American and the other thinks that he an elite soldier/tracker... which basically they are, though they are also more than that.



Ailith said:


> 1. The young hero who starts out as a whiny inexperienced bumpkin, and ends up a powerful wielder of some power he never knew he possessed.
> 2. The old eccentric mentor who sets the hero on his path.
> 3. The initially skeptical damsel, who has super skills, but for some reason will still need to be rescued at some point.
> 4. The epic bad guy whose name is super scary sounding.
> 5. The surprise relation. “Luke... I AM your father.”
> 6. The ancient prophecy that singles out our hero as the only person who can take down epic bad guy.
> 7. The scary witch/voodoo/swamp lady who scares everyone else but for some reason helps the hero.
> 8. The somewhat ridiculous bard who is there so the author can slip in some “poetry.”
> 9. The elf/human romance.
> 10. The item that the hero thinks is useless, but carries around anyway for 967 pages until he realizes that it’s what he needed all along to save the world! Lucky, that.




Nope.  Neither is whiny or a bumpkin, nor do either suddenly discover they have special powers they didn't know about.  Wait... do semi-prophetic dreams that he didn't realize were semi-prophetic count?  Any powers they get are given to them or they earn, in which case they will have to figure out how to deal with them as they come along anyway.  I do have "magic" of a sort in my world but it's not the bolts-of-fire-from-your-fingers variety.
I have a few mentor types and one is old (though he doesn't look as old as he is) and sets the "heroes" on their path but he's not eccentric.  I consider this a gimme though because I am sort of following Campbell's Hero's Journey.
Nope.  I only have one female character who could be considered anything like a damsel and she ends up with more power than anyone else, even though she has to go through some major distress to get there... but nobody rescues her and she's never skeptical, except about people's motives... which is just part of her overall character before the whole distress and become powerful thing.
My "Epic Bad Guy" named himself Logan Furlaich though I'm not sure why.  I would have picked something scarier if he'd given me the choice.
Sort of.  I mean, my male protagonists are twins separated at birth and raised in different worlds (again, yeah I know) so when they meet and learn they are twins it's sort of epic to them but it's also not really a big deal in the bigger scheme of things.  It's more like, "I wanted the kid dead before he was born so he wouldn't cause me problems and now there are two of them... well, this really sucks but I've got bigger things to worry about right now and they're half way across the country so I'll have to figure it out later."
There are prophesies, lots of prophesies about all kinds of things because prophets and  prophesies are important to my world.  But there's that old saying about there being more than one way for a prophesy to come true.
I have a fortune teller who is scary but she will tell anyone's fortune if they pay her fee... and she's a bit part anyway.
Nope, no bards.  Might be some poetry though, maybe, possibly, probably not... definitely no annoying bard though.
Nope, I don't have elves.  I have Gods and Goddesses (well, one of each at least), I even have the three fates and a few other odds and ends... no elves, no dwarves (unless you count the really, really short guy), no goblins, halflings, dragons or flying monkeys either.
Nope, no excess baggage that turns out to be the one and only item of salvation that the idiotic mentor forgot to mention until only the big evil bad guy was left and then he decides to casually ask, "oh by the way do you still have that mystic pipe cleaner you found in chapter 2?".


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## Jabrosky

Jo of the South said:


> (maybe its because I'm a girl, but I never understood why its always the princess who is rescued by the handsome knight. Why can't the princess rescue the knight for a change?)


I once attempted a story about a warrior woman questing to bring the man she loved back to life, but it never went anywhere. I still love the idea of a heroine rescuing her man though.


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## Caged Maiden

Wow that was really good.  Thanks!


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## Chime85

I'm not sure about my top 10 (which have yet to be submitted), but I would give my top as follows:

1) Evil minions being some form of animal. These include birds, beasts or a mix of these + human.

2) Harsh weather. When in doubt, throw snow at the lovable hero. I'll give away a point by admitting I a guilty of this very crime.

3) Alchohol = good times. It's odd in fantasy stories, but when beer or wine is involved, it always ends with an upper hand for the characters in question. That aside, it gives a comic relief from an otherwise hard time for the main characters.

4) "don't eat yellow snow". Despite the clear cheap shot at weather again, this is not. I am refering to the usual "don't do whatever makes the enemy stronger" but somehow ends in their, well, end. For those who are still unsure, I refer you to Gremlins 2.

5) The dark lords palace looks like a dump. Not being rude to any budding dark lord, but do you mind picking up as you go? Im tired of finding the bones of lost adventures of nay say when in your corridors. I dont want to find forgotten giant pets, or unmanaged water systems. I want a tower that has simple stairs, with simple suprises. If you've forgotten something, it isnt there!!.......    
....And I take two sugars in my tea, thank you very much!

xXx


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## Caged Maiden

The worst thing for me is this:

A world-altering dark lord is marching an impossible strong army/ creating ultimate warriors/ etc.  and the heroes die again and again.  But then, just as the heroes ready for the final battle, a certain suicide mission, a dragon swoops out of the sky/ a god descends from heaven/ a demon from hell opens the earth.  And the evil army is vanquished without the heroes dying.  

Oh man the scene from Reign of Fire comes to mind... Yeah, no one could kill dragons with their awesome weapons, too bad they didn't try A CROSSBOW!!!

Aak!  Really?


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