# Half Off



## skip.knox (Oct 26, 2017)

I have this line that I'm going to find a place to use, somewhere. Character A introduces herself and says "I'm a half-elf."

Character B raises an eyebrow and says, "Oh yeah? What's the other half?"

Makes me chuckle every time, but it brings me to my point. Half-orc, half-whatever, the other half is always human. Knock that over and see what you get.

Half-orc, half-dwarf.
Half-troll, half-elf.
Half-dwarf, half-halfling. *chortle*
If that last one has a child by a full dwarf, the child is what, 3/4 dwarf?
It gets rather silly, doesn't it? 

Also, how does this work? Not so much the actual sex act, which I'm willing to allow is going to be pretty similar across bipedal mammals of similar size, but where's the attraction? For the most part, species do not inter-breed. There are exceptions, but for the most part. What would attract a dwarf to an orc? Or a human to a dwarf? How does the romance work? Are the conventions for love and courtship the same across species? Seems unlikely.

I'm also thinking that the issue of such unions would, for the most part, be regarded with revulsion--unless you build in some socio-cultural reasons why they wouldn't. Coming up with scenarios, both for revulsion and for acceptance, sounds full of writing promise.

Does anyone know of stories that have explored this?


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## TheKillerBs (Oct 26, 2017)

"For the most part, species do not interbreed."

Well... We're _Homo sapiens_, and as far as we know, except for some populations of Sub-Saharan Africans, everyone has some Neanderthal, Denisovan and other early hominid species in their blood. So maybe species don't usually interbreed, but it seems that doesn't really apply to good ol' _Homo sapiens_ where it gets close enough.


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## rhd (Oct 26, 2017)

This got me thinking about that article I read on ligers, wholphins and grola bears.


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## skip.knox (Oct 26, 2017)

Then again, hominid is not _Homo sapiens_. I was looking more at fantasy beings.

To reiterate the question: any books out there in which the MC or a major supporting character is, say, half-elf and half-dwarf, or some other non-human combination?


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## TheKillerBs (Oct 26, 2017)

Well, _Homo sapiens_ ARE hominids, but not all hominids are _Homo sapiens._ I'm just saying, there's precedent for members of our species to go looking outside the box, as long as they're close enough. Wrt fantasy beings, some might push the envelope a bit (such as orcs) but overall I see no reason to believe fantasy human beings wouldn't do the same as the early humans did and interbreed with somewhat similar beings as themselves.


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## Russ (Oct 27, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> I For the most part, species do not inter-breed.



And here I always thought being in different species meant you can't interbreed.

But yes, the whole tradition of smashing two "species" (races?) together to get some neat characteristics really does seem more than a tad improbable when you think about it.


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## Demesnedenoir (Oct 27, 2017)

Improbable without a doubt, but un-naturally it’s fantasy where magic can be a form of genetic engineer. In the advanced magic eras of my world (plus in the era where the gods are busy) it allows for genetic manipulation, but of course it’s wildly unpredicatble because they don’t have a gene by gene understanding of what the hell they’re doing, LOL. Good fun.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 27, 2017)

One of the first stories I ever wrote featured a polar-elf - half elf and half polar bear. A revised version of that story can be found here: Tuuli

Elven half-breeds is a thing in my setting and they come from how the original elves are mono-gendered and have the ability to produce offspring with anything that has a soul. More details on this can be found on my wiki, here: Elven Half-Breeds

Souls are a pretty big deal in my setting and almost everything that is alive has one or shares a part in one. Additionally, some things that wouldn't normally be considered alive may also have souls. A consequence of this is that there may be such a thing as a half-elf, half-forest being. 
Admittedly, I haven't written  story about such a being, but it'd be interesting to try.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 27, 2017)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Improbable without a doubt, but un-naturally it’s fantasy where magic can be a form of genetic engineer. In the advanced magic eras of my world (plus in the era where the gods are busy) it allows for genetic manipulation, but of course it’s wildly unpredicatble because they don’t have a gene by gene understanding of what the hell they’re doing, LOL. Good fun.



Genetic engineering is also a feature in my setting. With the extremely long life spans of the elves, they've made it a hobby of theirs to try and create new species or to enhance specific traits within existing species.
Whether to allow for the use of magic in order to speed up the process is a bit of a hot topic and there are different schools of thought regarding how much magic is acceptable too.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 27, 2017)

One more post (instead of editing). On a grander scale, one of the more famous non-elf half-breeds would be Garona Halforcen from the Warcraft universe: Garona Halforcen
She's half-orc, half draenei and she's a fairly major character within the lore of the setting.


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## Heliotrope (Oct 27, 2017)

Oddly enough I don't find it that improbable, for some reason. If we are looking at Tolkein, the hobbits, elves, dwarves, men, and orcs all _can _speak a common language (yes, I know they have their own languages too), they all have typical patterns of humanoid behaviour (creating cities, and cultures, etc), they all have the capacity to feel a wide range of humanoid emotions (maybe not the orcs lol).... I guess to me the _species' _in LOTR feel more like _races, _and so questioning their interbreeding feels a bit like saying blacks can't mix with whites, or asian can't mix with aboriginal... I mean, the Japanese have a very different language, culture, appearance and courting habits than the West African Dogon.... but saying they couldn't, or wouldn't interbreed of course is absurd. I like what Killer B's has to say about the Neanderthals and HOmo  Sapians.

On the flip side, GRRM made his white walkers very non-human. Even though they look human, they don't have a wide range of emotions, they are very animalistic in their behaviour patterns. This for me feels different. I can't imagine a human breeding with a white walker, or a dragon in GOT.

So for me, believability depends on the level of sophistication of the species I guess?


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## Devor (Oct 27, 2017)

I don't have a book for you. But in Warcraft, I'm surprised that Svrtnsse went to Garona before Rexxar, who is half-orc, half-ogre.  I've said elsewhere, but the Lore in Warcraft can be a pretty good source of inspiration (just don't play the game if you value your life).

((edit: To me, Garona's half-draenai, half-orc lineage is a deal breaker because the two aren't even from the same planet. Orcs and Ogres in Warcraft lore are both part of the _breakers_ lineage descending from the shards of a stone giant, so their compatability makes more.... why are you making that face at me?))

One of the Dungeons and Dragons monster manuals lists _Mongrelmen_, a product of the big interracial cities where some people have the blood from too many different ancestor species to be a clear race on their own anymore. I thought the idea was awesome and might end up stealing it some day.


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## Heliotrope (Oct 27, 2017)

One of the Dungeons and Dragons monster manuals lists _Mongrelmen_, a product of the big interracial cities where some people have the blood from too many different ancestor species to be a clear race on their own anymore. I thought the idea was awesome and might end up stealing it some day.[/QUOTE]

On earth we call that "Canadian." lol.  I have kids in my class at school who are so many mixtures of so many things we can't do "Where did your family originate from" assignments anymore. IT would be six hundred pages long.


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## Chessie2 (Oct 27, 2017)

I thought this thread was about half off shopping...!

Just kidding. I mainly came on here to say that half-elves are sacrilege. No respectable elf would ever bed another race. Ever. Hail the Thalmor!

"Don't you see? Elven supremacy is the only way!"


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## Heliotrope (Oct 27, 2017)

Except Arwen.

Who, granted, didn't have a huge role in the books.

OMGI Someone actually wrote a blog post on this, lol!

Ansereg

*Interspecies Sex Is Tragic*
_
Elves who marry/love/have sex with mortal Men basically have "strange fates." There are four such recorded marriages in Tolkien canon: Beren and Lúthien, Idril and Tuor, Aragorn and Arwen, and Mithrellas and the first Lord of Dol Amroth. Mithrellas didn't stick around; she ran away from her husband (History of Galadriel and Celeborn, UF). Beren and Lúthien, and Aragorn and Arwen, wound up with the elf-ladies becoming mortal. This means that not only do they die instead of living an immortal Elf life, their souls leave the world and spend eternity with Men's souls. Idril and Tuor managed to scrape up a happy ending, sailing together into the West and being accepted there. (Silmarillion)

There is also a recorded instance of an elf-man falling in love with a human woman. (Legolas fans, please stay calm.) They didn't get married, though. This very depressing story, of bold Aegnor and wise Andreth, is told in "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth", or the Debate of Finrod and Andreth. (Morgoth's Ring, HME) It is full of reasons why elf/human social intercourse is wrong and ill-starre_d.


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## Chessie2 (Oct 27, 2017)

Yes. It IS tragic. When I used to be involved in the Skyrim fanfic community, a part of me died whenever elves married humans. Why?! Noooo.....


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Oct 27, 2017)

In my books, children are created through energy fusion and a desire to create, so in my latest book, the main character has three grandparents [none of them are of the same race: a Harmony Sorcerer, a Draconic Knight, and a Chaos Wolf of Purity] and one mother [a semi divine being].


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## skip.knox (Oct 27, 2017)

Thanks for the Warcraft references. I was pretty sure this sort of thing was rare in fantasy literature, but thought maybe I had simply missed a whole sub-sub-genre. Looks like not.

I've been putting a fair amount of thought to this for Altearth. I'm not sure who will get which arrangement, but one will be that interbreeding is possible but is taboo. That of course opens story possibilities. Another will be possible but disgusting, maybe on both sides, maybe just on one. I'll have a couple where it's possible but never produces progeny. Maybe one where it's acceptable, though right now I'm inclined away from that. I have put so much work into creating each nation as distinct, I don't want to try to sketch out mingled versions as well. Perhaps by and by. 

I find all sorts of complications implicit in these arrangements. Orcs are militantly monotheistic and all orcs are loyal servants of the Empire. A human could enter into this, but only by becoming a humanoid orc, believing what they believe and abandoning human traditions.  I presume going the other direction, the orc would have to abandon orc-ness.

More interesting would be a union between elf and dwarf, for elves are intensely individualistic while dwarves are all about clan and canton. In whose community would they be married? How would they raise their children? I could see them leaving both communities, going to live in a human city where it's possible to travel a third way.  Would dwarf merchants do business with them? Would their children be pariahs? 

It's not the physical sex or the genetics that interest me. That's merely biology. It's the consequences that interest me; that's story.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Oct 27, 2017)

I've got the idea for a short story about a female elf [Wayland] raised by dwarves and a female dwarf [Toruviel] raised by elves. Though that's entirely different...


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## Penpilot (Oct 27, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> I've been putting a fair amount of thought to this for Altearth. I'm not sure who will get which arrangement, but one will be that interbreeding is possible but is taboo.



Small sciency point. If they can interbreed freely and produce fertile offspring just as easily, then as Russ touched on, I don't they can't be considered separate species any longer. They're just variations on the same species.


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## Viorp (Oct 27, 2017)

I made once a fancy average fantasy world where "elves" were called "ancient humans" and were not skilled in certain types of magic while great at others. If crossed with a human they turned human.

Meawhile dwarves were actually related to giants not humans.
While dwarves and humans could interbreed and pairs like male dwarf+human female were common the reverse was not because female dwarfs look like 7-10 year old girls, but with boobs. So people attracted to dwarves are ridiculed as pedophiles...


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## Butterfly (Oct 27, 2017)

skip.knox said:


> I have this line that I'm going to find a place to use, somewhere. Character A introduces herself and says "I'm a half-elf."
> 
> Character B raises an eyebrow and says, "Oh yeah? What's the other half?"
> 
> ...



I seem to remember reading something similar to this in one of the Dragonlance Trilogies of the twins - Tanis the half-elf - might be the first set, but can't remember with certainty which one it was. I haven't read them for years.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 27, 2017)

Also worth checking out in this context is the Asari of the Mass Effect universe. They are monogendered and can mate with anyone. As I recall, their offspring will always be Asari though, but I could be wrong about that.

What's interesting there is that an Asari that does NOT mate with someone of another race is looked down upon - both the mother and her offspring.


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## skip.knox (Oct 27, 2017)

Penpilot said:


> Small sciency point. If they can interbreed freely and produce fertile offspring just as easily, then as Russ touched on, I don't they can't be considered separate species any longer. They're just variations on the same species.



Which is why I don't write SF. If this were SF, then I would have to fuss about such things. It's fantasy, where I never have to let science get in the way of story. Because if I did, then elves and humans would be the same species. So would humans and orcs. And any other half-creatures we fantasy writers have created. I take the point, and pass on it.


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## TheKillerBs (Oct 27, 2017)

Russ said:


> And here I always thought being in different species meant you can't interbreed.





Penpilot said:


> Small sciency point. If they can interbreed freely and produce fertile offspring just as easily, then as Russ touched on, I don't they can't be considered separate species any longer. They're just variations on the same species.


Okay. I want to elaborate on this point a bit because Russ's statement on species is one of those things that aren't entirely true that science teachers tell you. The general definition of species is a group of organisms that can produce fertile offspring. While this is a nice, clean definition, nature likes to laugh at our attempts at cataloguing it and throws curveballs every so often of creatures which are considered species by every definition but the general one. An example would be, as I earlier pointed out, the interbreeding that occurred during the Stone Age between early _Homo sapiens_ and _Homo neanderthalis_ and Denisovans (who might be a closely related species or a subspecies, we're not sure yet) was successful enough that to this day, most everyone has a little bit of Neanderthal and sometimes Denisovan in them. Another example would be the case of the coywolves in the north of the United States, which are the coyote-wolf hybrids. Mostly coyote, nowadays, but the fact remains that wolves and coyotes have produced viable offspring. More surprisingly, the domestic cat has been cross-bred with the African serval, which isn't even in the same genus (the domestic cat is in the genus _Felis_, the serval is in the genus _Leptailurus_) to produce the Savannah cat. They're fertile.

I liked Penpilot's phrasing. "If they can interbreed freely and produce fertile offspring just as easily [...] they can't be considered separate species." This is more or less true, although I'm pretty sure there's still some exceptions out there I'm not aware of. More importantly, I think this is prime fodder for conflict. Would, say, an elf-human couple have trouble conceiving? Even if they didn't have trouble, would the child be able to come to term? Would the child be sickly or deformed, or have increased possibilities of such? Would any of these questions not apply to their children, but to their grandchildren instead? If this is the case and known by their people, what would people's reactions be to couples who knowingly bring children to this world under those conditions? How would parents react to their children getting involved in a relationship that essentially dooms their family line?


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## Devor (Oct 27, 2017)

One thing that confuses me about the interracial relationships is how the species are related.... wouldn't that mean humans, elves and dwarves are ultimately descendant from the same species or what?  I mean, magically adapted, or corrupted, or empowered somehow.  I feel the pairing brings the question up.



Heliotrope said:


> On earth we call that "Canadian." lol.  I have kids in my class at school who are so many mixtures of so many things we can't do "Where did your family originate from" assignments anymore. IT would be six hundred pages long.



My son had one of those assignments recently, "celebrate your family's culture." and we debated for over a week about what to do.  Between my wife and I my kids are a mix of German, Italian, Portugese, English, Irish, Dutch, and.... I'm forgetting something on my wife's side. We ended up with Italian - everyone we spoke to said doing "American" would be cheating - but seriously, we were faking it.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Oct 27, 2017)

^At least Tolkien explained it in The Silmarillion when all of the races [barring orcs] were created [elves first, then men, then dwarves] by the Valar.


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## Orc Knight (Oct 27, 2017)

The Garrett P.I. series is full of all sorts of half and mixed breeds all over the place in it. Not sure if this is going off topic or on, but just saw it. My own Eld stories will be dipping into the half breeds and mixed in it's future, mostly due to the Fea and Green actually being able to breed. They are descended from the same beings after all.


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 28, 2017)

Only someone with serious mental problems would shag an orc.

Willingly.


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## Viorp (Oct 28, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> Only someone with serious mental problems would shag an orc.
> 
> Willingly.



There are a lot of fetishes mate. Not to mention in a world where orcs exists saying this would be equal to saying..............


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 28, 2017)

Viorp said:


> There are a lot of fetishes mate. Not to mention in a world where orcs exists saying this would be equal to saying ............



No,  black ppl are the same species. It's more similar to saying only someone with serious mental problems will have sex with a sentient baboon.


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## Viorp (Oct 28, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> No, more similar to saying only someone with serious mental problems will have sex with a sentient baboon.


Now it became confusing. Are fantasy races like "races" or like "species" ?


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 28, 2017)

Viorp said:


> Now it became confusing. Are fantasy races like "races" or like "species" ?



While its possible for a writer to bypass the whole issue by having their orcs look and act like green skinned humans, based on how orcs are typically portrayed, they're more monster than man.


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## Viorp (Oct 28, 2017)

Annoyingkid said:


> While its possible for a writer to bypass the whole issue by having their orcs look and act like green skinned humans, based on how orcs are typically portrayed, they're more monster than man.


Well I would say Orcs rarely go beyoned looking human. Always human shaped with minor differences like:
1. Facial features
2. Skin color
3. Culture
4. Intelligence
5. Teeth

Except the teeth part all those are differences which exist/existed in human races.
I'd treet any fantasy race which is capable of breeding with humans as a race. (if equal intellect) 
Goblins and such become hard to classify tho :/


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 28, 2017)

Viorp said:


> Well I would say Orcs rarely go beyoned looking human. Always human shaped with minor differences like:
> 1. Facial features
> 2. Skin color
> 3. Culture
> ...



Lotr orc:
https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-s...are-you-1x2aq-2-20191-1445197975-5_dblbig.jpg

Warhammer orc: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/04/b1/ba/04b1baf251f12cbc025dad454b410c65.jpg

DnD orc : https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net.../Orc-5e.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20161210043357

These look like monsters. Beasts designed to be terrifying. As soon as a writer makes them good looking enough for people who aren't insane to want to bone them, then they become watered down for the sake of novelty, which is difficult, as the writer would be trying to shift the culturally dominant image of the orc in people's minds.


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## Orc Knight (Oct 28, 2017)

Given the image of orcs has already changed a lot, mostly due to Warcraft's portrayal of them, maybe that's why the fetishes and the like come about. Things change and yes, they can be played to noble savage warrior to scary monster and everything in between. And really, look at what happened to vampires in popular media. If they get the upgrades to make people want to bone the living dead, sooner or later it's going to happen to the pointy eared beast with tusks. They also tend to act human in their own way too.

For another matter, there are plenty of people out there who find the constantly evil orc as annoying as concept as the constantly evil drow. I'm one of them, obviously. There's been a shift for a while towards seeing some of the humanoid monster races as more human anyways. Catch the train.


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## ThinkerX (Oct 28, 2017)

This used to be one of my gripes about fantasy, especially urban fantasy.  I'd pick up the newest novel at the store, read the blurb, and the character would be introduced as 'half-something,' be it half-elf, half-dragon, half-demon, or sometimes simply skip the human part altogether, except maybe as a grandparent.  (Strangely, 80% of these 'half's' were extremely attractive women wielding swords).  It got me to wondering - how did their parents ever get together without killing each other, let alone have offspring?  Musing about that, along with a evening or three with some old veteran buddies of mine discussing their experiences in the Macros era Philippines and like locals, plus an old woodcut, prompted me to write this story: (WARNING: lots of naked people engaged in inappropriate behavior)

LEAVE (Adult Content) - FREEDOM OF SPEECH


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## Annoyingkid (Oct 29, 2017)

That's why half elves are hated. Their well deserved reputation for only being used as a cheap way to add angst and specialness.


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## Russ (Oct 29, 2017)

TheKillerBs said:


> Okay. I want to elaborate on this point a bit because Russ's statement on species is one of those things that aren't entirely true that science teachers tell you. The general definition of species is a group of organisms that can produce fertile offspring. While this is a nice, clean definition, nature likes to laugh at our attempts at cataloguing it and throws curveballs every so often of creatures which are considered species by every definition but the general one. An example would be, as I earlier pointed out, the interbreeding that occurred during the Stone Age between early _Homo sapiens_ and _Homo neanderthalis_ and Denisovans (who might be a closely related species or a subspecies, we're not sure yet) was successful enough that to this day, most everyone has a little bit of Neanderthal and sometimes Denisovan in them. Another example would be the case of the coywolves in the north of the United States, which are the coyote-wolf hybrids. Mostly coyote, nowadays, but the fact remains that wolves and coyotes have produced viable offspring. More surprisingly, the domestic cat has been cross-bred with the African serval, which isn't even in the same genus (the domestic cat is in the genus _Felis_, the serval is in the genus _Leptailurus_) to produce the Savannah cat. They're fertile.



That is a very interesting point you bring up.  While I  freely concede that PP's articulation of my point was more elegant than mine, there are different uses of the word species in science.

I understand that where species have existed in a period that that modern science has had a chance to observe that the breeding criteria is still a vibrant part of the methodology.

I have also read that with respect to extinct species that the criteria does not include viable offspring also able to reproduce because the ability to determine whether or not said reproduction could or did take place is often difficult or impossible to determine.  

So the word species has slightly different meanings when discussing extant or long extinct animals.

And absolutely yes to the idea that species in a human attempt to impose organization on a inherently chaotic environment.  The problem of what to do about animals that defy are organizational charts is an interesting one.


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## Russ (Oct 29, 2017)

Viorp said:


> Now it became confusing. Are fantasy races like "races" or like "species" ?



That depends on how they are portrayed, with the ability to successfully interbreed one of the differences between whether the term species or subspecies/race is appropriate.   The question of the meaning of the word race is one fraught with peril in scientific/political terms.


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## skip.knox (Oct 29, 2017)

I use the word "nations" rather than race or species. The latter sounds too scientific for average characters to say, and race has connotations I do not like, and anyway isn't really accurate for distinguishing between something like mermen and goblins. I like the Latin _natio_, not least because Romans really did view other _nationes_ as being other, not-quite-human, or at least certainly-not-Roman. 

This does create a few problems in that not everyone knows the etymology of the word, so I have to take pains to say Dwarf Nation or the Nations of Fae and other circumlocutions in order to communicate the right connotation. It has the advantage of being peculiar to Altearth, so helps set it apart from other story worlds.


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