# Best and worst female leads



## Chilari

I'm working on an article looking at female lead characters in fantasy. My intention is to pick some examples of good and bad female leads, but so far, I've only chosen two good ones. I have no idea what to say for the bad examples. I was thinking of picking a secondary protagonist from a Gemmell book, because his female characters invariably sleep with a male protagonist, are rude and confrontational to begin with, and know or learn how to fight. And that's not how I define a strong female lead character. But I also want a couple of examples of female characters who are the primary protagonist, perhaps even the narrator, who are not good role models for all the wrong reasons, or who are flat characters, or who are mary sues, or whatever else.

My plan is to have three of each - three good and three bad. I've got two good already - Tiffany Aching from Wee Free Men by Terry Pratchett, and Robin Hobb's Althea Vestrit from the Liveship Traders books. I'm looking for a third, preferably not from either of those authors, but the trouble is I don't think I've read widely enough (outside Pratchett, Hobb and Gemmell, my fantasy reading has been limited as far as female leads are concerned).

I'll also need two more bad examples. Like I said, the one I already have, sort of, is a Gemmell female character (the one from Legend, if I can find the damn book. I was reading it, and then it was just gone. I was half way through it!) The other thing I was thinking was Bella Swan or whatever her name is from the Twilight books, but then I realised I can hardly judge her based entirely upon the opinions of one close friend and one university tutor, both of whom have read the books, and the world at large, so it's unfair to judge her without having read the books, so I'll leave suggestions open regarding that. If I do end up reading the first book to see if Bella Swan does fit into my article, then I must admit I shall do so from a point of bias, and I'm not entirely certain how useful that will be as a result. So I am inclined to avoid Twilight, if not for my sanity then for the integrity of the article; though I may yet reconsider.

Please only suggest characters from books you have read, not based on what you've heard. Preferably characters whose key points can be discerned from one book alone. That way there's a chance I will have completed my research for the article before Christmas. I might be starting a job in January (interview went well anyway) and will rapidly run out of time to work on the article if I'm reading a trilogy for each of six characters.

By all means post what you think about the characters, but I'd appreciate if you could put all but the book title and author in spoiler tags, which I won't look at. This way I won't be influenced by your opinions or which category you think the character fits into - good or bad female lead.

Oh and finally - being as I am jobless and living off the goodwill of the British government and taxpayers, please endeavour to suggest books which have a good chance of being in a local library, not books that are self-published or unknown. This makes it cheaper and easier for me to find the books, and means that it is more likely that the readers of the article will be familiar with the characters I am discussing. And bonus - it means you're helping me to support a local library not remotely at risk from closure because my local council has categorically stated* that it won't be closing any libraries, thank goodness, but justifies their position.

I've rambled enough. I'd appreciate any help you can offer. Thank you.


*Publicly, during an evening event with author Joanne Harris** last week. Which was a wonderful evening.

**Honestly, if you were wondering "who?", shame on you. Google is your friend, but if you need help, she's best known for Chocolat, though my favourite is Five Quarters of the Orange (my mother disagrees; she prefers Blackberry Wine)


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## Elder the Dwarf

Don't you dare trash talk Gemmell!   Her name was Virae, I believe, but I can't find the book either.  You really need to finish it, the whole Drenai series is great, and I just found every book... except for Legend.  I can't think of any others right now, but I'll try to get back to you.


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## Shadoe

Oh man. I think I know of the absolute WORST female lead in a book of all time - can't remember the name of the book or the author. Sorry, I have Oldtimer's.


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## mirrorrorrim

Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series has a very, um, _distinctive_ take on his female characters, one that I think says a lot about how some fantasy authors view women. Since the series is over a dozen books long, though, that's probably not quite what you're looking for.

Honestly, a lot of fantasy authors just don't seem to write females very well. They either come across as stereotypically helpless, one-dimensionally shallow, or as nothing more than men in lipstick and dresses.

I think the few authentic female characters I've read have mostly all been from female authors:

J. K. Rowling's Hermione Granger, from Harry Potter

Stephenie Meyers's Wanda and Melanie, her two protagonists from The Host

Suzanne Collins's Catniss, from The Hunger Games

Anne Rice's Claudia, from Interview with a Vampire (and I hear her Mayfair Witches are pretty good)

Margaret Weis's Kitiara and Laurana, from Dragonlance Chronicles

None of these are perfect saints, by any means (at least a few of them got on my nerves pretty regularly, and one's just downright creepy), but they all feel _real_.

Good luck writing your article!


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## Seth son of Tom

though not the main character i think hermione is a pretty solid character, esp in HP7


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## Ghost

Rhapsody by Elizabeth Haydon. You'll know what you need to know about the characters from the first book, so I think it would be fine to read just the one instead of the whole series if it's difficult to find them at the library.



[I tried to use the spoiler tag to hide my opinion on Rhapsody, but I couldn't figure out how it works. I give up.]


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## Amanita

I'm really fond or Sabriel and Lirael in Garth Nix's Abhorsen trilogy. Reading book one or two would be enough to give you an idea. 
Trudy Canavan's Sonea in book one is quite good as well, but I'm not really happy with her developement later on.
For bad ones, Ginny Weasley in Harry Potter book 6 comes to my mind. She unites many cliches female fantasy characters suffer from in herself. 
- overly pretty and attractive to many men/boys
- committs acts of violence that are supposed to be endearing
- is feisty and "self-confident" but has still been pining over one man for years and still needs saving by him.
Using her might be controversal though, the discussions of her character on HP-forums are very much so.
- does nothing plot-relevant besides being the love intereset.


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## Kit

The entire female cast of MZ Bradley's The Mists Of Avalon would be fodder for several articles.


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## Chilari

Wow, that's a great response already. Thanks so much everyone. I'll do my best to get through as many of those as possible.

Elder the Dwarf: I don't mean to trash talk Gemmell. I have a whole shelf of his books. I have enjoyed reading his books for several years. But his female characters are not good.


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## Elder the Dwarf

Sorry, that was meant as a joke.  I love Gemmell as well though.


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## Telcontar

Bleh. As mentioned above, Jordan's got some howlers. I strongly disliked Nynaeve(sp?) at frequent points in the story. 

There's a female character in the Dragonlance books (the main sequence, Dragons of The Various Seasons books) who I vaguely remember being annoyed by, though I haven't read those in years.

Strong female characters include Sabriel - also already mentioned - and a personal favorite of mine, Tazendra from Steven Brust's Khaavren Romances (she's ONE of the main characters, at least).


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## Easnadh

Althea Vestrit is a great choice! As a third option I think you should consider Sarra Ambrai from Melanie Rawn's _The Ruins of Ambrai_. This is one of my all-time favourite books, and she is a very strong female lead.


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## Erica

Most of the fantasy books I read seem to be by female writers, so I can think of a few examples of good.

Firestarter in Jane Lindskold's Through Wolf's Eyes Series
Morgane in C.J. Cherryh's Morgane series (though that was technically Sci Fi, it was fantasy-ish)
Tobin/Tamir in Lynn Flewelling's Tamir trilogy
Terelle in Glenda Larke''s Stormlord books
Main character in Maria Snyder's Poison Study
Many of Mercedes Lackey's books

Bad, is a bit harder to come up with for me, because if I'm reading a book with a female main character who is vapid or stupid without a good reason for it (except to tickle male reader' fancies), then I usually stop reading. I  remember an awful series of books my HS boyfriends was reading for a while and I tried a couple of them (that was aeons ago)-I think the writer was called John Norman or something like that. The world was called Gor and they were SO sexist that even he stopped reading them eventually (too sexist for a 17 year old boy in the 1980's is saying something). Most of the women in that world were pleasure slaves and they all discovered eventually that they loved being slaves because it allowed them to free their inherent female nature. Argh!


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## ScipioSmith

I have a soft spot for Che Maker, from the Shadows of the Apt series, who goes from bad to good over the course. If you want her as an example for bad read book 1 (Empire in Black and Gold) for good read 5 (The Scarab Path, don't worry about diving into the middle as it stands alone pretty well) or alternatively read 7 (Heirs of the Blade) to see her contrasted with her foster sister Tynisa, also a Good example to my mind, as well as the Wasp Empress Seda who is a good example of a female villain who isn't vampish or overly sexualised at all.


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## Kelise

Erica said:


> Terelle in Lynn Flewelling's Stormlord books



Do you mean the Stormlord books by Glenda Larke?


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## Benjamin Clayborne

Ah, Cordelia Naismith Vorkosigan. One of the best.

Also good but in a very different way is Fawn Bluefield from the _Sharing Knife_ series.

No coincidence these are both Lois McMaster Bujold characters. ;-)


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## Ravana

Kit said:


> The entire female cast of MZ Bradley's The Mists Of Avalon would be fodder for several articles.



I'll second that one in a big way–with the sole qualification that you could safely drop the world "female" from that sentence. So much that if Chilari hasn't read it yet, I'd discourage her from doing so. 

Chilari: Don't read it. 

I'm sure others of Bradley's fans would cite her Darkover novels as possible sources; unfortunately, the more she wrote women, the worse the novels got, so I can't really recommend those, either. 

Erica is correct about author, name and content, as regards that series she'd probably be just as happy not remembering: Gor was S&M wet-dreaming thinly disguised as Conan pulp-fic. (A comparison I make quite deliberately–because by comparison, the Conan novels were _not_… didn't even come close.) Even when I was a teenager, my standard for both quality and content was so far above these I couldn't manage ten pages of one; be glad they seem to have become somewhat less than a footnote today. (Though Wikipedia claims they're still in print. I'm pretty sure he wrote the article himself: the two paragraphs of his "themes" makes for a truly hysterical read, considering.)

I'm trying to come up with a "good" candidate for you… unfortunately, I can think of far more in SF than fantasy. If you don't mind "crossover" works–by which I mean what are essentially fantasy novels placed in a minimally-intrusive or unintrusive SF backdrop–some of McCaffrey's leads aren't bad (Lessa, Menolly), but they still don't really compare to her best male characters. C. J. Cherryh's fantasy isn't her strongest work, but the titular character of her Morgaine trilogy would probably qualify for most people. (Erica mentions this, too. Some might also put these into the crossover category… technically it is, in the same way McCaffrey's Pern novels technically are, and, as with the first several of those, nothing in the story absolutely depends on that identification. At any rate, they have nothing to do with the Arthurian lady of the same name. _Gate of Ivrel_ is the first; as I recall, reading one doesn't oblige you to read the others. Oh: MZB's Darkover is also technically SF.)

The best–certainly the "strongest"–female characters I can think of off the top of my head come from my two favorite authors working in the field today; here, however, part of the reason is because the difference between female and male characters tends not to be a factor in the first place. Steven Brust's work is loaded with them (though my favorite from him is (A) from a historical fiction novel he (B) co-wrote with Emma Bull, _Freedom and Necessity_; I have my suspicions as to whose input was greatest on which characters, but I'd rather not prejudice a reading there). And if you were looking for "strong" in terms of "not a doormat," I doubt you'll find anyone who can come in ahead of a couple of the primary characters in Glen Cook's "Black Company" novels… though, as the (main) narrator mentions in the first book, it doesn't make the slightest difference to him and his mates that they happen to be female. (It turns out he's wrong in one case, in the long run, but that would be getting ahead of things.) You'd probably need to make it to at least the third book for this to be a particularly fruitful option, though after that the amount of space devoted to female characters picks up considerably. 

Now, if you were to extend into SF, I could come up with both more and better examples.…


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## Laughing_Seraphim

The assumption that females of our species are somehow that much different than the males, unblemishable in a sense, may be where you are going wrong. Being a (presumably) western woman, your interpretation of the females in books is probably skewed inexorably toward the positive.

 Men bad, Women good. 

In that, realism about human nature in general takes a solid punch in the face. This why you show a clear bias in choosing a topic that amounts to "Great females and slightly less great females."
That being said;

From film, Sigorney in aliens is a great example of a solid female lead. She is still female. She has a softness to her, she is NOT a trained badass. Much like most male underdog heroes, she succeeds in spite of the odds. Outnumbered, outmatched and generally bereft of the tools required to do what she has been tasked with.

Hermione from HP is in truth something of a good example. She is sort of vile and abusive a fair amount of the time, but occasionally comes off as brave, sensitive and candid. She is written as human, vile and beautiful in the same skin. Most of Rowlings characters fit that bill. Hagarid is a nice guy, and a black marketeer, oaf and so on. Snape is a turd, but a deeply loving and committed turd who strives for excellence. As a result, her gender, race or class could be changed and the character would still be strong. Female snape would still be everything that snape is.

Thus, a character who would  not be considered a great character if they had a penis, that is to say, one who is remarkable by merit of her sex alone is hopelessly unremarkable.

Read Glory Season. It's a shining example of our cumulative tendency to try and think that women aren't really human, but magical critters who poop flower petals and rainbow dust....Apparently most writers don't date much.

Select your candidates, remove gender from the equation and obvious winners and losers will probably pop right out at you.


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## Amanita

> Select your candidates, remove gender from the equation and obvious winners and losers will probably pop right out at you.


I completely agree with this, but the rest of your posting?
I highly doubt that anyone here on the forum believes that women are always the better gender. Outside of our forum, this is definitely not believed, which we find out in many situation in real life, in western countries and even more so in others or if we look only a few years into the past.
Female characters in books are actually often judged much more harschly than male ones. Everywhere people go on and on about bad and cliched female characters, while there's hardly anything about writing good male characters. 

One thing that often does turn up is the idea that women are inherently peaceful, caring and in tune with nature, while men are violent, cruel and exploitive. If a men committs a crime, he's often viewed as a villain in the media, if a woman does something similar, she usually is supposed to have done it because of love or desperation etc. The idea that women can be "evil" seems very difficult to accept in real life and in fiction. Maybe, because it would also attribute some amount of power to the woman in question no matter how wrong her actions are.
That's something which annoyed me very much about Bellatrix Lestrange in Harry Potter for example. Why did she do everything? Because she was desperatly in love with Voldemort. Can't stand this kind of thing.


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## Benjamin Clayborne

Amanita said:


> That's something which annoyed me very much about Bellatrix Lestrange in Harry Potter for example. Why did she do everything? Because she was desperatly in love with Voldemort. Can't stand this kind of thing.



I can understand being annoyed when this is overly common, but why is it a problem for one character to be primarily motivated by love (even if it's for an evil madman)? Would it be a problem if the details were the same but the genders reversed?


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## Erica

starconstant said:


> Do you mean the Stormlord books by Glenda Larke?



Yup-fixed it. My fingers and brain crossed wires somewhere.


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## Amanita

> Would it be a problem if the details were the same but the genders reversed?


Actually, I've never ever seen that happen. Dumbledore had to be made gay to do evil out of love after all.  It wouldn't make me too impressed by this character either and I highly doubt that he'd be the only male villain in such a story.


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## Ravana

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> I can understand being annoyed when this is overly common, but why is it a problem for one character to be primarily motivated by love (even if it's for an evil madman)? Would it be a problem if the details were the same but the genders reversed?



I should think so. The annoying part isn't that the person who's doing it is acting out of love, but is acting out of love that seems totally misplaced. I have to admit I haven't yet read to the point where Bellatrix appears… how does Voldemort treat her? Like a worthwhile human being? Or like a slave… or, worse, a doormat? That would be where "annoying" starts to enter the picture.

Even if he does treat her at least reasonably well–how could you hold any respect for someone who loves a person like him? I don't know that that would at all improve my opinion of her… any more than knowing that Eva Braun sincerely loved _her_ honey improves my opinion of her. And, no, I wouldn't care for it any better if the genders were reversed. "Love" does not equal "blind stupidity," nor is it an excuse for abdicating basic morality. 

-



> Read Glory Season. It's a shining example of our cumulative tendency to try and think that women aren't really human, but magical critters who poop flower petals and rainbow dust....Apparently most writers don't date much.



Hmm. Not sure you caught the point of that story, LS–Brin wasn't exactly endorsing that position. (That having been said… that isn't one of his strongest works. I hope you've read some of his others, and haven't been turned off from him by that one.)

I'm definitely with you on Lt. Ripley, though. I'd toss Sarah Connor in, too. (A role which, in _T2_, won the 1992 MTV Movie award for "Most Desirable Female." Think about that one for a moment.…)


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## Benjamin Clayborne

Ravana said:


> I have to admit I haven't yet read to the point where Bellatrix appears… how does Voldemort treat her? Like a worthwhile human being? Or like a slave… or, worse, a doormat? That would be where "annoying" starts to enter the picture.



He's cruel and abusive to her just like to everyone else. It's almost like an abusive spousal relationship -- he's only mean to me because I disappointed him! It's my fault! Except Bellatrix is a batshit insane, extremely powerful witch.



> Even if he does treat her at least reasonably well—how could you hold any respect for someone who loves a person like him?



You aren't supposed to respect Bellatrix; she's mad (and evil, and delights in torture and cruelty). She's definitely a villain, but she also loves Voldemort, which makes her even more tragic.


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## Ravana

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> It's almost like an abusive spousal relationship



What I figured. And, yes, that would "annoy" me. To put it mildly.

Now… if she was after him because of lust for power, and slapped him upside the head whenever he treated her badly, she might have been interesting.…


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## myrddin173

Ravana said:
			
		

> Now if she was after him because of lust for power, and slapped him upside the head whenever he treated her badly, she might have been interesting.



And she would have been dead shortly afterward.  In the books or the movies I never realized Bellatrix was in love with Voldy. (AVPM is another matter though I'm more of a Quirrelmort guy myself). I thought she was just plain wacko and liked being evil.


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## Benjamin Clayborne

myrddin173 said:


> And she would have been dead shortly afterward.  In the books or the movies I never realized Bellatrix was in love with Voldy. (AVPM is another matter though I'm more of a Quirrelmort guy myself). I thought she was just plain wacko and liked being evil.



She's both. She's insane, likes being evil and torturing people, and _also_ loves Voldemort. She's not evil because of her love for Voldemort, they just happen to dovetail.


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## Steerpike

Ravana said:


> I should think so. The annoying part isn't that the person who's doing it is acting out of love, but is acting out of love that seems totally misplaced. I have to admit I haven't yet read to the point where Bellatrix appears… how does Voldemort treat her? Like a worthwhile human being? Or like a slave… or, worse, a doormat? That would be where "annoying" starts to enter the picture.



She doesn't fare any better at the hands of Voldemort than anyone else. In many ways, Bellatrix is a caricature. She's evil and crazy, and her depth doesn't go much beyond that. But, by the same token, I'm not sure that it has to given her role in the story. 

I agree with your comments on Brin. I haven't read the book mentioned, but have read other works of his that are quite good.

Ripley is a good female lead. I also think Morgaine from The Gate of Ivrel is pretty good. 

Octavia Butler writes some very nice female leads. You're moving more into science fiction territory rather than Fantasy, but her work crosses between the two in my view.

I also like Chance Matthews from Caitlin R. Kiernan's book Threshold. Chance is messed up, she definitely has her issues, but I feel she's a strong character trying to move forward in a bewildering situation. Kiernan doesn't fall into gender stereotypes readily, and her books tend to have pretty good (albeit messed up in some way) female leads (the Red Tree is another).


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## Elder the Dwarf

Sorry to go on a tangent, but this thread got me thinking about female leads who are considered "strong females" in so-called classic literature.  Two that spring to mind are the main character in Their Eyes Were Watching God and The Awakening (forget both of their names).  They kind of come off to me as selfish, unhappy b****es.  Maybe this is just me being an immature teenage guy, but neither are what I consider to be a strong character.  Have any of you read these two and if you have do you agree or disagree?


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## Steerpike

I haven't read the first one you mentioned, Elder.

In The Awakening, I think the main character (Edna) is a strong character in many ways. If you put the character in the context of her society, I think you see that she transforms into someone who is willing to break the bonds of society and the strictures imposed on her. The transition she makes is not something a weak-willed character in her shoes can pull off. Of course, there is always debate over whether the end of the book represents an ultimate weakness to her, or whether it is the opposite. Reasonable minds differ on that one


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## Elder the Dwarf

Steerpike said:


> I haven't read the first one you mentioned, Elder.
> 
> In The Awakening, I think the main character (Edna) is a strong character in many ways. If you put the character in the context of her society, I think you see that she transforms into someone who is willing to break the bonds of society and the strictures imposed on her. The transition she makes is not something a weak-willed character in her shoes can pull off. Of course, there is always debate over whether the end of the book represents an ultimate weakness to her, or whether it is the opposite. Reasonable minds differ on that one



Yeah, I understand what you're saying.  Still, I hated the... crap out of that character (trying to cut down on the bad language).  To me, she was basically a selfish character that cared very little for anyone besides herself, and when she did that affection was fleeting and inconsistent.  People who treat her well she treats with scorn or by betraying them.  I just can't understand or support an individual like that.  Why does a "strong" woman have to be a... well, b****?  (Sorry, that one was unavoidable .)

P.S. I am not arguing with you, just explaining myself and why this character and, more importantly, the admiration people have for her irritate me.


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## Steerpike

Elder the Dwarf said:


> Yeah, I understand what you're saying.  Still, I hated the... crap out of that character (trying to cut down on the bad language).  To me, she was basically a selfish character that cared very little for anyone besides herself, and when she did that affection was fleeting and inconsistent.  People who treat her well she treats with scorn or by betraying them.  I just can't understand or support an individual like that.  Why does a "strong" woman have to be a... well, b****?  (Sorry, that one was unavoidable .)
> 
> P.S. I am not arguing with you, just explaining myself and why this character and, more importantly, the admiration people have for her irritate me.



Yeah, I don't necessarily disagree with any of that. I think she was "strong" in the sense of her willingness to defy the societal strictures of the time, but that doesn't necessarily make her a likeable or nice person


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## Controller

The girls from the wheel of time.  Just annoying


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## Erica

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> She's both. She's insane, likes being evil and torturing people, and _also_ loves Voldemort. She's not evil because of her love for Voldemort, they just happen to dovetail.



I agree. I think Rowling was trying to show that a lot of the people who became 'dark wizards' when Voldemort showed up were people who were already rather twisted. Sure, he was charismatic and persuasive, but he also said what they wanted to hear. The thing was, he had a plan and the power to give them the world order that they thought they wanted. I liked the scene in the last book at the Malfoy Mansion. She made it pretty clear that the Malfoys, at least, were beginning to wonder what they had gotten themselves into and were not as pleased with the new world order (and their own place in it) as they'd thought they'd be. Draco, in particular, came off as slightly more sympathetic (though still a nasty little boy).


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## Larkin

When I was a kid, I remember liking Luz from Ursula K. LeGuin's _The Eye of the Heron_ as a protagonist, and I'll also note Tenar/Arha from the Earthsea series is good as well. For all LeGuin's initial nervousness about writing a heroine instead of a hero (something I've read her reference in interviews), she does a great job of it anyway. I also really liked Meg Murry from _A Wrinkle in Time_ et al. Smart and resourceful without being always-insufferably-right, described as the "everywoman" teenage girl protagonist decades before (and much more successfully than) Stephenie Meyer tried her hand at it, and able to carry her own story through courage, pluck, dedication, and intelligence.

The worst? Kahlan, the Mother Confessor from Terry Goodkind's dreck. Virgin Mary stereotype combined with the worst, most cliched Action Grrl, able to do exactly the wrong thing for the wrong reasons, and to have "moral clarity" about it as well. (Sorry, Goodkind fans! I'm not one.)


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## Garren Jacobsen

I am not sure if anyone mentioned this but I liked Sarene from Elantris she was a BA! One of the worst was the elf chick from Eragon.


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## Benjamin Clayborne

Brian Scott Allen said:


> One of the worst was the elf chick from Eragon.



I'm reading _Inheritance_ now, and I had completely forgotten that her name was Arya. I think I know which Arya is the better Arya.  Yeah, Eragon's Arya is a pretty bland and uninteresting character. The only reason I'm plowing through the book is to find out how it all ends. (I suppose I could just find a summary somewhere...)


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## DameiThiessen

I know this sounds really childish but....the Little Mermaid, in the original story by Hans Christian Anderson. I admire almost any character that sacrifices them-self, especially when it's for the one they love.


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## Jess A

While I loved the first three Jean Auel books, I rapidly grew tired of the main character, 'Ayra'. She simply became too perfect and too 'unique'. Quite the Mary Sue! The male lead became equally obnoxious. 

In my humble opinion, anyway.


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## Ness

I found Mara from Raymond E. Feist's 'Empire Trilogy' a wonderfully strong female lead. I read the books years ago so I can't remember them entirely, but I remember being completely amazed at her strength and intelligence.


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## Easnadh

Little Storm Cloud said:


> While I loved the first three Jean Auel books, I rapidly grew tired of the main character, 'Ayra'. She simply became too perfect and too 'unique'. Quite the Mary Sue! The male lead became equally obnoxious.
> 
> In my humble opinion, anyway.



I totally agree. She (Ayla?) was perfect in every way and seemingly responsible for every innovation in their society. The first book in particular had some degree of realism as far as she was concerned, but the rest of the books gradually became more and more unrealistic. In my opinion this is a perfect example of an author becoming too attached to their characters and allowing the overall work to suffer as a result.


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## Jess A

Easnadh - Agreed. One cannot be solely responsible for every invention or come to every new conclusion. Auel also fell in love with her setting. While the descriptions are, at first, rather intricate and lovely, they become burdensome after a time and I found that I was skim-reading or skipping entire chapters to get to the action/conflict.

Ness - I've never read that series. Not yet! I read Feist's earlier ones - I stole my username from those books in fact. But I have to get a hold of the Empire ones. I've never actually read any of Janny Wurts' books, but I hear that she is good and she is on my 'to read' list.


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## Ness

Little Storm Cloud: I highly recommend it, especially if you are a fan of Feist! I am always so amazed and slightly bewildered at how Feist manages to build such detailed worlds and stories. Let me know what you think after you read them! I haven't read any of Wurts' other stuff either, but will definitely be hunting some down!


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## Jess A

Ness said:


> Little Storm Cloud: I highly recommend it, especially if you are a fan of Feist! I am always so amazed and slightly bewildered at how Feist manages to build such detailed worlds and stories. Let me know what you think after you read them! I haven't read any of Wurts' other stuff either, but will definitely be hunting some down!



Yes he does design wonderful worlds; I think the familiarity of the 'western' Midkemia and the Oriental (among other cultures) type Tsurani world (I forgot the name already) is highly deliberate to make the Tsurani seem very alien to his mainstream readers, but that is another conversation in itself. I shall read them, in good time! I am still re-reading Magician among about a thousand other novels. I seem to have fallen into the unfortunate habit of reading five or more books at a time. Usually very different genres. 

But back on topic - I also quite enjoyed Glenda Larke's character Blaze Halfbreed in _The Isles of Glory_. I've become hard to please with books of late and it was a nice surprise to pick those books up to be sure! I highly recommend that series. They are also witty in parts.


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## Erica

I agree with you there. I liked Earth's Children, but it got harder to believe with each subsequent installment. I think she tried to introduce some limitations and flaws, both in her characters and in the powers of traditional medicine, in the last book. But by then, it had come to resemble one of those romance novels where the hero and heroine manage to go to the Civil War, The Wild West, Europe and the Far East and meet every important/influential person who existed during the novel's time frame. Oh yes, and keep all their teeth past their early twenties too


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## Aravelle

DameiThiessen said:


> I know this sounds really childish but....the Little Mermaid, in the original story by Hans Christian Anderson. I admire almost any character that sacrifices them-self, especially when it's for the one they love.



It is not childish in any way! I love The Little Mermaid, although some folk would argue that since she was a martyr and "dumb enough to die for a guy", she isn't worthwhile mentioning.


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## Aravelle

And once again, Kushiel's Dart is neglected. I adore Phedre; she is human, at least as human as D'Angelines go. She is witty, observant, and sometimes her tongue is a bit harsh. She is willing to take risks, make sacrifices, and take the blame when things go wrong. She's also terribly loyal and loving, even if she doesn't always express it aloud.

As for worst female lead, that's easy. It's Anita Blake, assuming you categorize that as fantasy and not porn.


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## CTStanley

Phedre Delaunay in Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel Series.
Janelle in Anne Bishops Black Jewels series.
And I've had Sonea recommended in Trudi Canavan's black Magician series. 

All good - I don't know many bad ones!


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## Sheriff Woody

Regarding Ripley from the Alien films, here is an interesting note from one of the earlier drafts of the first film (Dan O'Bannon draft): *The crew is unisex and all parts are interchangeable for men or women. 


*I think one of the keys to writing a strong female character is to put little importance on gender and just write a strong character in general. This may help avoid many stereotypes and cliches, because many people probably approach female characters thinking of gender. I've been guilty of it. But how many times are authors sitting there thinking 'how do I write a male character?' Quite seldom, I would think.


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## Steerpike

Sheriff Woody said:


> I think one of the keys to writing a strong female character is to put little importance on gender and just write a strong character in general. This may help avoid many stereotypes and cliches.



It's an interesting approach, and I don't think it is entirely bad. I will note, however, that by trying to make characters unisex, or by removing all vestiges of what is considered traditionally 'feminine' in order to feel like you have a strong female character, you are essentially de-valuing those aspects of the female character. In other words, you first have to buy into the value system that says traditionally feminine characteristics have little value before making the next step into saying a key to a strong female character is to eliminate these traits.


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## Sheriff Woody

Steerpike said:


> It's an interesting approach, and I don't think it is entirely bad. I will note, however, that by trying to make characters unisex, or by removing all vestiges of what is considered traditionally 'feminine' in order to feel like you have a strong female character, you are essentially de-valuing those aspects of the female character. In other words, you first have to buy into the value system that says traditionally feminine characteristics have little value before making the next step into saying a key to a strong female character is to eliminate these traits.




That is true. It's not a be-all, end-all approach, but perhaps one that can help avoid the common cliche trappings of female characters.

I do agree, however, that it is important in many cases for characters to be definitely male or definitely female. 

Sarah Connor in the first Terminator film, for example, must begin the story as an ordinary woman and definitely not the "mother of the future" in order for her character to arc and grow into the strong bad-ass she eventually becomes.


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## Steerpike

Yes, I think that's exactly right about Sarah Connor. I feel it is important to writers to understand there are many types of "strong" characters. A strong character may embody a lot of traditionally male traits, or a lot of traditionally female traits, or a good combination of the two, regardless of whether the character is male or female. You can write a strong male or female soldier, or corporate executive, or a strong male or female stay-at-home parent, or what have you. I like the fact that we've seen traditional roles turned on their heads in the past few decades. We seem to see it more in one direction - making females more traditionally male, thereby emphasizing their power and value. I wonder how well a story would do that went the other way?


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## Jess A

Aravelle said:


> As for worst female lead, that's easy. It's Anita Blake, assuming you categorize that as fantasy and not porn.



Yes. I have heard her used as an example in an essay on Mary Sues.


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## Steerpike

Little Storm Cloud said:


> Yes. I have heard her used as an example in an essay on Mary Sues.



The Mary Sue issue is interesting. When learning to write, we're told all the time to stay away from them. And yet you can find any number of them on the shelves, including in popular best-selling series. You mentioned Hamliton. Also, Lee Child and Clive Cussler come to mind. So you have to wonder about the prohibition against them in the minds of beginning writers. Clearly there is a market for those types of books.


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## Feo Takahari

Steerpike said:


> I wonder how well a story would do that went the other way?



Allow me to go off-topic a bit, and wax rhapsodic on the character of Dale from _Horrible Bosses_. 

There's a certain cliche, seen in films like _Nine to Five_, of the sweet, innocent young woman sexually victimized by a predatory authority figure. Dale is what happens when you take this character, switch her sex, and change absolutely nothing else. His kind heart, his spinelessness, and his deeply hidden rage at his situation are all written in ways that would normally be considered "feminine".

But although Dale's tendency to bend to others is portrayed as a flaw, his feminity as a whole is not. In fact, the film never specifically discusses it as feminity, and it's never suggested that he's less of a man for it--it's just Dale being Dale.

To amend Woody's above comment, I think the key to initially developing a character is to start with a basic personality that may not have anything to do with the character's sex--a Dale who is a Dale, or a Dani who is a Dani. Once you've got that down, then you can work on how societal expectations affect how he or she behaves. But never assume that the mere fact of being a he or a she is enough to define the character's core.


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## ThinkerX

The female elf 'Shadow' from Ann Logston's 'Shadow' series and the female charcters in the various sequels are interesting, I suppose.  Shadow is an elfan thief whose 'additional interests' are rather basic (ie 'men') - but she does eventually grow past that a bit, helping out old comrades, taking over the thieves guild, spending time in the forest.  But 'men' remain near the top of her priority list - along with very expensive liquor.  

The other female characters in the series are not nearly as 'wild' as Shadow; a couple have families (eventually), one runs a city, others attempt to come to terms with unusual magics.  Fair bit of 'girl meets boy' type stuff.  

As I recollect, Andre Norton in her 'Witch World' series had quite a variety of female characters.


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## Jess A

Steerpike said:


> The Mary Sue issue is interesting. When learning to write, we're told all the time to stay away from them. And yet you can find any number of them on the shelves, including in popular best-selling series. You mentioned Hamliton. Also, Lee Child and Clive Cussler come to mind. So you have to wonder about the prohibition against them in the minds of beginning writers. Clearly there is a market for those types of books.



I do not dispute this. Lee Child and Clive Cussler are two of our best selling authors. They barely stay on the shelves the day we restock. Jack Reacher certainly has a wide fan base (why is Tom Cruise playing Reacher?!). But I think the general topic of Mary Sues and Gary Stues and character stereotypes is another thread in itself.

I will state that I did not like Anita Blake.


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## topazfire

I know this is an older thread and Chilari's paper is likely long done, but I have enjoyed reading through all of the suggestions and discussions. There seem to be quite a few books to add to my reading list! 

One character and series that I have not yet seen mentioned is Karigan G'ladheon from Kristen Britain's Green Rider series. I think she is a great character with a balance of strengths and faults. She is at times both annoying and charming, which to me, makes her very relatable. I also admire that Britain showed the progression of her skills (both education and fighting ability) so Karigan isn't just some girl who had a sword thrust into her hand and is automatically a blade master! (Which bugs me most with any character...)

There are a few secondary female characters in the book who take up a variety of roles and are just as well rounded. The male characters have not by any means been neglected either and are well fleshed out.


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