# A few specific questions about my magic system



## BWFoster78 (Mar 22, 2012)

Disclaimer: My magic system isn't too terribly original, basically a spin on elemental magic.  I am completely fine with not having created the best new magic system the world has ever seen.  Hopefully, the story and characters will make up for any perceived lack.

The System: A mage has the ability to control an element.  For example, a fire mage can control - you'll never guess! - fire.  

My spin on the system is that elements go beyond the typical four (earth, wind, fire, and water).  So far, I've come up with the following mages in excess of those:

Electricity
Gravity
Sound
Light
Heat (differs from flame, mage controls the flow of heat energy instead of actual flame)
Radiation
Magnetism

I also came up with the idea of a life mage.  A person with this gift can drain lifeforce from an enemy or heal an ally (or vice versa if needed).

Question 1: Do these divisions make sense from a physical/logical standpoint and can you think of others?

Question 2: Does it make sense to divide the traditional powers of an earth mage into two - organic and inorganic?  The inorganic mage can manipulate rocks and metals while the organic mage gets dirt and plants (don't want him to be able to manipulate tissue of sentients).

Question 3: If I want to be at least somewhat realistic from the perspective of physics, what does "control" and "ability to manipulate" mean exactly?  Fire is pretty easy.  The mage can call it into being, use it to burn people, cause it to go out.  What about the inorganic earth mage?  Can he move a rock across the ground?  Though the air?  The denser the material, the harder it should be to manipulate, but what are the other limits?  Can the water mage cause a river to defy gravity or just change its course within certain parameters?    

Thanks in advance.

Brian


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## Amanita (Mar 22, 2012)

Well, no need for a disclaimer. Few magic systems follow completely original patterns and still many are very good.
The personal tastes among readers and reviews vary greatly, therefore I can only give you my personal opinion, therefore take it with a grain of salt.

My first thought is: The number of elements your using is quite high. Adding the four classcial ones and life magic you have twelve. Did you choose this number for some specific purpose?
If it’s possible for your story, limiting the number of availabe elements might make things easier to explain and understand. Do you really need heat magic different from fire magic for example? And what does someone with „light“ do at all? Besides allowing people to see better in dark places. If you answer with yes, keep it, but if it’s a „just because“ thing you might want to reconsider.

I’m not a great fan of „life“ as an element because it also requires a definition of „life force“ and most of this is very vague in most stories using it. And how would the life magic person be able to heal someone? 

Question one: It does make sense with the exception of the life magic mentioned above. I’d also reconsider merging light and heat with fire but that’s totally up to you as I’ve already mentioned above.
Other „elements“ I’ve stumbled over include poison and darkness in stories and metal and wood in the classical Chinese system. Adding those two and putting heat and light with fire could give you six elements actually related to things you can „touch“ and six related to physical concepts. 

Question two: This should work for the classical elements, I don’t see how „gravitation magic“ can be divided into organic and inorganic uses though. 

Question three: Magical control over these things isn’t realistic from the perspective of physics, therefore you „simply“ have to decide which sorts of abilities will help your stories and which will hinder it by making people too powerful. Then invent good-sounding reasons why these limits exist. 

One general bit of advice: Try not to go too complicated with too many different kinds of mages. It will take up way too much time to explain this to the reader, they don’t know which elements can be part of this system because they don’t follow an established pattern, therefore this can easily get quite confusing.

(Says me who is dealing with over 80 elements but at least it is clear which ones belong and which don’t in my case.)


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## JCFarnham (Mar 22, 2012)

The inclusion of heat AND radiation seems rather redundant to me. Same thing really. At least in the confines of your magic system a heat mage could cause radiation and so on and such and such.

Other than that Amanita has said it.


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## Devor (Mar 22, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> My spin on the system is that elements go beyond the typical four (earth, wind, fire, and water).  So far, I've come up with the following mages in excess of those:
> 
> Electricity
> Gravity
> ...



Each of these are going to have their own challenges to pull off effectively.  For instance, every object has a weak gravitational pull of its own.  If you can influence that trace amount of energy, how would it differ in effect from magnetism?  Radiation could extend from radio waves, to colors, to heat-generating microwaves, to poisonous beta waves and deadly gamma waves, and that might produce effects which are hard for readers to wrap their heads around.  And I'm not sure how valuable it is to separate Light and Heat and Fire; doesn't the third sort of subsume the other two?

There's definitely room to expand beyond the four/five elements, but I don't think it's as easy as it sounds.  Electricity is a good choice.  But you might want to think long and hard about some of the others.  I was just following a few links in another thread, and apparently even something as simple as paper can be more effective than something that would seem a more logical choice, like gravity.




> Question 3: If I want to be at least somewhat realistic from the perspective of physics, what does "control" and "ability to manipulate" mean exactly?  Fire is pretty easy.  The mage can call it into being, use it to burn people, cause it to go out.  What about the inorganic earth mage?  Can he move a rock across the ground?  Though the air?  The denser the material, the harder it should be to manipulate, but what are the other limits?  Can the water mage cause a river to defy gravity or just change its course within certain parameters?



That's up to you, but for some ideas, you should take a look at Avatar: Last Airbender, which shows off elemental magic heavily.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 22, 2012)

In my world, I use magic based on elements as well..... but I think simpler is better, because I'm certainly no scientist.  I allow most mages to be able to do small stuff, like make a fireball, but if you want  acontinuous flame... well that takes concentration and focus years in the making..... I guess that's how I limit power.  Very few can say, shoot lightning from their hand, while many can give someone a painful shock on touch.  I figure, in a world where guns are rare and swords the norm.... I can't very well have loads of people running around defying the laws of physics and nature.  That makes powerful mages rare, and even they are limited by their own energy and stamina.  So if you throw a spell too big for you, you pass out (akin to if I tried to run a marathon).  Magic in my world is about one's own personal ability, but the powers themselves are somewhat based on what is possible and exists in the world.  I don't dabble with time control or things that I can't explain.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 22, 2012)

Thanks for all the responses.

In my world, magic is outlawed and thus, for the most part, the organization surrounding magic users isn't too advanced.  Most knowledge has been lost.  This lack allows me to start fairly small and get the reader used to the main character who develops a single ability.  I then add other mages later and have time to introduce the concept without throwing too much at them at once.  I'm not sure that I will ever use all twelve types of mages.  Right now, I need to wrap my own head around the concepts, though, and determine what types are possible.

Regarding life magic: in my world, life "flows" through people constantly, keeping them alive.  It drains out of people through wounds, and its flowrate is impacted by age and disease.  If it flow out of someone more quickly than it flows in, that person eventually dies.  Life mages can manipulate the rate of flow.  

Regarding Heat vs Radiation: I can kind of see your point.  Heat can be transferred via radiation, and radiation relates to a transfer of energy much like heat.  On the other hand, radiation encompasses a much broader range of energy transfer than does heat, and heat can be transferred via both conduction and convection as well.  I'm trying to come up with a logical separation of "elements."  Waves of heat seem different to me than waves of radiation.

I like the suggestion to try the Last Airbender.  Maybe that will help clarify things for me.

Regarding the last comment: I'm not sure how the comment relates to my question.  I took it as an admonishment to make sure to limit power.  My mages are pretty darn powerful.  The whole concept of my book is a study in power and it effects, noble vs mage, etc.  I realize that magic has to have a price, however, and will take steps to keep the characters from becoming all powerful.  I like the concept of a time mage.  Hmmm..

Thanks again.


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## Queshire (Mar 22, 2012)

I suggest making the more classical elements more common / easier to do, while the more specialized elements are just that, specialties. Maybe the classic elements are considered the main elements while the specialized ones are combinations or sub groups of them.

Personally I'm not a fan of a gravity power letting you float stuff around, I'm no scientist, but gravity doesn't work that way. I think you should have gravity magic be used to increase or decrease the weight of something, which would give the caster psudo-super strength, by decreasing his weight when jumping or picking up heavy objects by decreasing their weight.

Light as an element is often used for laser beams but honestly that always seemed a bit unoriginal to me...

I like the inclusion of heat, for me that implies that you could both increase or decrease the heat of something, I remember one scene in one of the Dresden file's book where he ripped the heat out of one mook, freezing him, then tossed that heat at another as a fireball.

Personally, I like it, I just advise that you shouldn't limit the elements to just those, I mean, if they can be an element why can't other things? Why aren't there Sword elemental mages?

For other elements, I say your limits your imagination, some ideas might be time, void, paper, mist, blood, animals, sword, rubber, sand, watermelons, words, actual elements like gold or hydrogen, explosions, etc and so on. Depending on how you define an element it could be anything!!!

I don't particularly see why dirt would count as organic, I suggest having earth mages and wood mages. With wood mages acting as a cross between earth and water mages. 

Whether it's real or not in physics doesn't really matter, just so long as it's internally consistent, hell, being able to control the elements with a wave of your hands is impossible according to the laws of physics! Also, I'm pretty sure summoning fire is against the laws of physics, fire is a reaction, it needs something to burn so you can't just create it out of nothing.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 23, 2012)

Queshire said:


> Whether it's real or not in physics doesn't really matter, just so long as it's internally consistent, hell, being able to control the elements with a wave of your hands is impossible according to the laws of physics! Also, I'm pretty sure summoning fire is against the laws of physics, fire is a reaction, it needs something to burn so you can't just create it out of nothing.



I think that it will be easier for me to keep it consistent if I base the system, loosely at least, on physics.  The concept would be that a mage draws energy from a pool of magic and uses it to manipulate the element.  As long as he has the right conditions, he can use magic to create a flame.  If it's too cold and wet, he's going to have more trouble (ie need more energy/magic) creating the flame than if he had dry wood.  He can keep the flame going by pouring magic into it, allowing it to be fed from only the magic instead of consuming fuel.  

My protagonist is revealed to be a fire mage early in the book, and I think I've gotten a good handle on his abilities; I'm just not so sure what to do with an earth mage.  It makes sense for him to be able to have rocks change their shape, but can he make them roll across the ground?

For my concept, it doesn't make sense to separate blood (which is mostly made of water) and mist from water.  I want to define categories, not individual items.

Thanks again for the response.  It's helping me nail down my thoughts.


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## Queshire (Mar 23, 2012)

To me shapping stone sounds less based in physics then moving them.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 23, 2012)

Queshire said:


> To me shapping stone sounds less based in physics then moving them.



I get your point.  I think what I'm trying to say is that being a mage gives you an inherant control over an element.  You can use magical energy to manipulate it in anyway you choose, change its shape.  

I want there to be limits on the mage's power, though.  The mage should be able to change the shape of the rock because he has dominion over rock, but he shouldn't be able to make the rock defy gravity by flying through the air.  Once he leaves the boundary of the rock, physics takes over.  Maybe he could make he rock jump by having it apply energy against the ground, but it can't levitate.

Is this making any sense?


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## shangrila (Mar 25, 2012)

I'll throw my 2 cents in;

You have a solid foundation. I wouldn't worry about it being outrageously original, as it can be really, REALLY difficult to come up with something no one has done. But, if you are looking for unique systems, try Brandon Sanderson's work. It might give you some ideas.

I agree with what others have said in regards to overlapping fields. Heat, Radiation and Fire could all be merged into one. I'll also add that magnetism and electricity could be merged as well, as they're close enough (magnetism comes from the reaction of magnetic materials to electric currents). There's a ton of potential to flesh out the others though. Light mages, for example, could be illusionists, while gravity mages could specialise as thieves (why climb a wall when you can just cut out the gravity?). I don't have any suggestions for others though (sorry =]).

As far as limits go, it usually depends on where the power comes from and its effect on the mage. If it's, say, their own body energy, then obviously using too much could kill them. But if it's from an outside source, then maybe too much will corrupt them? Or make them go insane?


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## gowph3ar (Mar 26, 2012)

I would change Heat to Kinetic, the ability to control the energy that makes things move, which is my mind is the ULTIMATE power, if you can reduce and raise the kinetic energy of an object you can either make it move rapidly to freeze it completely. This could be a sort of advanced form of magic, Plus Kinectic energy would control heat, being that if you speed up the particles it would heat up, and if you slowed them down they would freeze, just a thought.


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## Rullenzar (Mar 26, 2012)

Just giving my 2 cents.

It's interesting how you try to integrate so many different elements but in my opinion you should try to cut the number of elements down to say 7 or 8 tops. If your really good at keeping the complex nature of your system in tact even while say a mage from each element is battling all at once then I say go for it. However, for the reader's sake and your own a smaller number would be more beneficial. You can add some things together etc... into existing elements. Or, you can say that further training in say fire elements opens up advanced magic in heat radiation or something like that. 

I myself like your life mage element. You will have to figure out how you want to say this power comes into light. But in my opinion I'd call it Life force element. The ability to control and manipulate one's life force. When healing for instance it drains your life force. The more critical the wound the more dangerous for the mage to heal it and putting his own life at risk. When draining a foes lifeforce essentially your refilling your own lifeforce. You could also even say that when the life force is drained the mage has the ability to manipulate in a way that he uses it on himself to replenish his own or use it as an attack on another foe like an energy ball, that depletes their lifeforce instantly. 

I don't know just brainstorming.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 27, 2012)

I'm getting a lot of advice telling me to cut the number of elements in order to reduce confusion.  

I'll consider it, but that's not what my instinct is telling me.  I'm not starting off with a school of magic where there are hundreds of different mage types; I'm starting with a character who finds he can use magic and going from there.  At this point, I don't plan on having a ton of different mages.

Also, since technology is relatively unadvanced (which I'll deal with as part of the novel b/c otherwise eletricity mages would tend to help advance electric technology), the more complex mages may never discover they have any ability, thus reducing their number.

What I need to do, however, is to establish a logical system of what type of elemental mages there are.  I can decide later which few talents show up in the book.  It's important for me, however, to be prepared from the beginning and know what types are possible.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 27, 2012)

How about this list:

Energy Mages - 

Kinetic (can cause items in motion to stop and items at rest to accelerate)
Potential (not sure about this one)
Heat (can manipulate thermal flow in either direction)
Chemical (not sure about this one either)
Electrical (can produce or dampen electrical charges)
Electromagnetic/Light (can produce or dampen light)
Magnetic (can manipulate/create magnetic attraction)
Sound (can manipulate sound waves)
Nuclear (can produce massive amounts of raw energy)

Elemental Mages -

Gas (can manipulate anything in gas form)
Liquid (same but for liquid form)
Solid (same but for solid form)
Fire (can manipulate fire)

Other Mages (These didn't fit well into my other categories) -

Life Mage (can manipulate the flow of life in or out of a living organism.  The only mage that can directly influence a sentient being.)
Gravity Mage (can manipulate gravity)


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 27, 2012)

Okay, I took a walk and gave this a lot of thought.  This system will require a bit of rewriting, but it works logically and simplifies things greatly.  

New Magic System:

In my universe, a mystical lake of magic exists.  A small percentage of the population is born with a metaphysical connection to this lake.  If this conduit is big enough, the person can use the flow of magic to manipulate a single type of energy - creating, destroying, or modulating it.  The type of energy is a quality the person is born with and does not change.  These people are called mages.

A Kinetic Mage manipulates objects in motion.  He can cause an object at rest to fly off or an object in motion to stop or reverse course.

A Potential Mage manipulates an object's potential energy by changing its mass.  This one is a little weak and undefined so far.  Any ideas would be appreciated.

A Heat Mage manipulates thermal energy.

A Chemical Mage manipulates energy released by chemical reactions, including fire.

An Electrical Mage manipulates electrical charges.

An Electromagnetic Mage manipulates light.

A Magnetic Mage manipulates magnetic attraction.

A Sound Mage manipulates sound waves.

A Nuclear Mage manipulates energy from atoms.  Note that people in my universe have a poor understanding of atomics and thus its hard to discover that you're an nuclear mage.

A Mechanical Mage manipulates mechanical energy.

A Life Mage manipulates life energy.

That's it - eleven types of well-defined mages (and the wizard, of course).

Thoughts?


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## shangrila (Mar 27, 2012)

I just get the feeling that readers might find it all confusing, or you'll need to info dump to explain it all.

EDIT: Ok, saw your second post. I think that's better. The Potential one seems a little vague, but you realise that so it's fine.


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## Rullenzar (Mar 27, 2012)

The reason I said earlier you should have less is because more lands you in the redundancy pile. As I read your second post there is a lot of those that are basically the same thing and can be explained as an advanced type of magic in the same field of magic opening up doors for you to put more classical type of mages.
example: wind/water/earth
Most of your magnetic types should be classified as one with more then one tier of difficulty. The others like nuclear explosion should be classified as fire with say 3 different tiers ( fire = heat - chemical - nuclear/ Magnetic = electrical - etc.. ). 

The problem I see you running into with your current ones is simple --> Most are the same with slight differences and will confuse people and yourself while writing.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 28, 2012)

Rullenzar said:


> The reason I said earlier you should have less is because more lands you in the redundancy pile. As I read your second post there is a lot of those that are basically the same thing and can be explained as an advanced type of magic in the same field of magic opening up doors for you to put more classical type of mages.
> example: wind/water/earth
> Most of your magnetic types should be classified as one with more then one tier of difficulty. The others like nuclear explosion should be classified as fire with say 3 different tiers ( fire = heat - chemical - nuclear/ Magnetic = electrical - etc.. ).
> 
> The problem I see you running into with your current ones is simple --> Most are the same with slight differences and will confuse people and yourself while writing.



I disagree completely.  Heat is the transfer of thermal energy.  Fire produces heat but is itself a chemical reaction.  There's a huge difference between thermal energy and chemical energy.  Nuclear energy is atomic energy.  Again, it produces heat, but its energy source has nothing to do with a thermal source.  

Just because I'm writing a "fantasy" novel doesn't mean that the laws of physics suddenly disappear.  I need a clear, concise way to separate my mages.  By defining them all as energy mages and separating them by types of energy, I gain exactly what I need.  If I try to combine them, I'm back to my original problem - trying to figure out what combinations make sense.

I'm pretty sure that I can keep myself from being confused as I understand the differences from a physics point of view.  Whether or not the reader is confused will be a test of how good my writing is.


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## Amanita (Mar 28, 2012)

Well, you obviously have a very clear idea of your magic system in your mind and you like to keep it that way, no matter what other people are saying. I'm not attacking you this at all, I'm feeling the same way about my own. 
At first glance, this looks extremely complicated as many people including myself have already written. This doesn't mean that it can't work if you do it well, but it might be difficult to explain it to a reader without confusing them. Might be, if you do it well it doesn't have to be. 
If you really want to have answers concerning this, it might be more useful if you posted an actual scene with your magic in the Showcase so we would see how it's working out within the story.

One thing however: The "life energy" is still standing out as something problematic, especially if you're going for a very scientific apporach which seems to be quite important to you. It's more something that would belong in a more, well, magical setting. Everything else are actual forms of energy while life energy is not. If I read a book containing advanced physics in the background, this would put me off. 
One small thing: What's supposed to make kinetic and potential energy different from "mechanic energy"? At least as far as I remember physics class, mechanics mainly deals with objects in motion, falling etc.

The fact that energy forms can change might pose some difficulties for your system as well, such as chemical energy being transfered into thermal energy during combustion. Which kinds of energy would fall under the power of your heat mages for example? The heat of fire is created by a chemical reaction, the heat of the sun is created by nuclear reactions happening there, the warmth within humans or animals once again through chemical reactions and so on. Where do you draw the line between different mages' fields?


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 28, 2012)

> Well, you obviously have a very clear idea of your magic system in your mind and you like to keep it that way, no matter what other people are saying. I'm not attacking you this at all, I'm feeling the same way about my own.



I understand what you're saying.  I started this thread asking for help figuring out my magic system.  Based on some of the responses, I was able to direct my research in a specific direction.  Based on that research, I was able to resolve the original problem.  I'm now quite happy with the system; it's much better and more well-defined than the original concept.



> At first glance, this looks extremely complicated as many people including myself have already written. This doesn't mean that it can't work if you do it well, but it might be difficult to explain it to a reader without confusing them. Might be, if you do it well it doesn't have to be.



It's not as complicated as you think.  Also, please keep in mind that a fantasy novel doesn't have to completely explain everything, be it history or the magic system, as long as consistency is maintained.  The understanding I gained from the way I redefined the system will help me keep it consistent, rather I explain in detail to the reader or not.  For example, the technology level in my universe isn't advanced enough for them to understand nuclear energy, so why would I ever bring it up?



> If you really want to have answers concerning this, it might be more useful if you posted an actual scene with your magic in the Showcase so we would see how it's working out within the story.



I may do that when I rewrite those scenes.  It's not a huge priority for me at this point, however.



> One thing however: The "life energy" is still standing out as something problematic, especially if you're going for a very scientific apporach which seems to be quite important to you. It's more something that would belong in a more, well, magical setting. Everything else are actual forms of energy while life energy is not.



I think you're misunderstanding.  I can break the rules of physics however I want as long as I know I'm breaking the rules, remain consistent, and provide an explanation.  In my universe, "life" is a form of energy.  People in my book live because the flow of life into them is greater than the flow out.  They die because more life energy is draining than can be replaced.  

That's the great thing about a fantasy setting, I can set the universe up however I want.  I can say that gravity acts in reverse of how it works here.  As long as I consider the consequences, make sure the reader understands this fundemental difference, and stay consistent, it works.

In my universe, physics works pretty much as it does here except I'm adding "life" as a form of energy.



> If I read a book containing advanced physics in the background, this would put me off.



Sorry you feel that way, but not much I can do about your personal preferences.



> One small thing: What's supposed to make kinetic and potential energy different from "mechanic energy"? At least as far as I remember physics class, mechanics mainly deals with objects in motion, falling etc.



Upon further reflection, I'm probably going to remove mechanical energy as a potential mage type.  Mechanical devices don't create energy as much as they convert it from one form to another.



> The fact that energy forms can change might pose some difficulties for your system as well, such as chemical energy being transfered into thermal energy during combustion. Which kinds of energy would fall under the power of your heat mages for example? The heat of fire is created by a chemical reaction, the heat of the sun is created by nuclear reactions happening there, the warmth within humans or animals once again through chemical reactions and so on. Where do you draw the line between different mages' fields?



The mage has the power to create, manipulate, and destroy energy using magic.  A heat mage can make heat from an object disappear, making its temperature go down to absolute zero, or transfer a lot of thermal energy into an object making it melt.  The intense heat might cause a chemical reaction that causes the object to burst into flame, but the heat mage cannot manipulate the flame itself.  A heat mage could combat a chemical mage by removing heat from fires, putting them out.  The chemical mage can create heat by making a fire but cannot otherwise transfer heat into an object directly and can't pull heat out of an object.  As long as I keep the difference between the manipulation of thermal energy and the manipulation of chemical energy straight in my head, I should have no problem keeping the lines between the mages powers clear.

I'm not sure this explanation is going to be good enough for you, but the change of energy from one form to another isn't going to have a lot of impact.  Just because a chemical mage can't create heat directly doesn't mean he can't produce something that produces heat.  If a chemical mage wants more heat, he has to pour more and more magic into a fire.  If the heat mage wants more heat, he simply converts magic directly.

Does that make sense?

I do appreciate your interest.  Thanks.


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## Queshire (Mar 28, 2012)

Ah, you're wrong about one thing, sure you can make up whatever you want when it comes to fantasy things, but you have to keep in mind the reader's willing suspension of disbelief. There's only so much you can do before they just go "no, just no, it doesn't work that way" and put the book down. Now, if you're just writing to write that's fine, but most of us write so that somebody reads it. After reading about using relatively believable physics for most of your magic, suddenly reading about the much more fantastical life energy might be too much for the average reader.

The fact is, that you don't seem to be consitent in focusing on your magic, going from the physics ruled rest of the magic to life magic.

Honestly, I don't have a much of a problem with it myself, but you should just keep that in consideration.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 29, 2012)

Queshire said:


> Ah, you're wrong about one thing, sure you can make up whatever you want when it comes to fantasy things, but you have to keep in mind the reader's willing suspension of disbelief. There's only so much you can do before they just go "no, just no, it doesn't work that way" and put the book down. Now, if you're just writing to write that's fine, but most of us write so that somebody reads it. After reading about using relatively believable physics for most of your magic, suddenly reading about the much more fantastical life energy might be too much for the average reader.
> 
> The fact is, that you don't seem to be consitent in focusing on your magic, going from the physics ruled rest of the magic to life magic.
> 
> Honestly, I don't have a much of a problem with it myself, but you should just keep that in consideration.



I appreciate your concern.  I'm willing to take the risk.  Thanks again for your interest.


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