# The Darker Edge of Fantasy



## Philip Overby (Feb 28, 2011)

I like darker types of fantasy.  That is one reason I am afraid to post anything in the Showcase because a lot of my writing is pretty gruesome and I'm sure that it won't follow the forum's guidelines.  I would say I'm more Robert E. Howard than Tolkein.  However, if anyone is interested, I can send a private message.  

I tend to be interested in fantasy that has a darker edge to it.  Grittier, darker, no limits.  That is why I like Joe Abercrombie, China Mieville, Steven Erikson, George R. R. Martin, the Black Company series, and most recently Tim Lebbon and Scott Bakker.  These writers don't seem to put limits on any element when it comes to subject matter or violence.  I am also reading The Hobbit right now, so I don't want people to get the impression I only like fantasy that is violent and gory (in the case of Tim Lebbon, obscenely violent)

Anyone have a taste more in this vein?  Is your own fiction more in this style?


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## Parqstu (Feb 28, 2011)

I'm very interested 
If you did give me a short piece, I could tell you what i think and as far as it goes for the forum guidlines.

Me?
I just write, I don't mind how far it goes, hah 

Also you might want to send a peice to Black Dragon, he could tell you what he thinks about it being on a showcase. Without seeing it I'm priddy(I know) sure it will be fine. 

Everyones work shold be accepted, no matter what it's like. As long as it says before it(If you really think) it's terribly gruesome.


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## Donny Bruso (Feb 28, 2011)

Personally I have no qualms about darker fantasy. Abercrombie and Martin are two of my favorite authors. I haven't started the black company yet, it's in my 'to read' pile on the coffee table. I try to emulate it somewhat in my own writing because I feel that it's a more realistic take on fantasy. If you're interested there's a link to my portfolio in my signature, feel free to check out Dark Crusade, I think it falls into the vein you're looking for.


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## Fodwocket (Feb 28, 2011)

I would love to read it, dark stuff is always my favourite ^_^


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## Philip Overby (Feb 28, 2011)

Cool!  Glad to know there's some folks interested.  I am working on something now that I want to know if it's worth continuing.  I only have the first chapter written so far.   If it's worth pursuing, I'd like to keep working on it.  It's not particularly serious in tone, so take that into consideration as well.

Anyone that wants to take a look, just send me a private message and I'll send it along in whatever format you prefer.

@Donny Bruso:  I'll definitely check out Dark Crusade soon!


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## Ophiucha (Feb 28, 2011)

MiÃ©ville is one of my favorite modern authors, and I tend to draw more influences from Westerns and Lovecraft than I do from Tolkien and his like, so I definitely stick to the darker edge of fantasy. Depending on the chapter, one could more accurately say I am writing a horror story with elves and dragons than a dark fantasy. There is a most excellent scene in my current project in which a woman, a water mage, takes all of the water out of the protagonist's left arm's blood. Only the water, though, leaving iron and nutrients and whatnot in a sort of dust behind. They end of having to chop it off, as you might imagine, and it is gruesome.


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## Philip Overby (Feb 28, 2011)

Ophiucha said:


> There is a most excellent scene in my current project in which a woman, a water mage, takes all of the water out of the protagonist's left arm's blood. Only the water, though, leaving iron and nutrients and whatnot in a sort of dust behind. They end of having to chop it off, as you might imagine, and it is gruesome.



That's a unique way to ruin someone's day, haha.  I'd like to read that.

Most of my gruesome scenes tend to be pretty comical or over the top.  Such as one of my novels had to do with a wizard building a wall of dead unicorns around his tower just because it made him more terrifying.  The plot of the story follows different unicorn hunters trying to make a pay day or hunting them for other more personal reasons.  

The novel is aptly called "Wall of Dead Unicorns."


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## Meg the Healer (Feb 28, 2011)

I have no problem with darker fantasy either. I sort of attribute them the same way I do horror movies. I like scary movies and I don't mind gore, but overly gory or slash and hacks (like Saw) - I don't particularly care for...to me there's a fine line between gruesome and sickening.

Your work sounds interesting and I'm sure if BD reads it and doesn't have a problem with the content - then it can be posted to the forum (as Parqstu mentioned). Just mention in the title or in the intro - that for "younger readers" it may not be appropriate due to intense/graphic violence or disturbing images or something.

I know the current work I'm doing at the moment has one of my main characters tortured and raped....but depending on how graphic I actually write it - it may never make it to the showcase either.....so I understand your dilemma.


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## Ravana (Feb 28, 2011)

Phil the Drill said:


> the Black Company series


 
Finally, someone else who's read those! 

I don't consider them especially "dark"–unless one's definition of "dark" is simply "happy ending optional." They certainly aren't particularly graphic, at least not compared to what they could be: they make some gesture toward realistically reflecting military environments, but they're far from being slasher books. 

If you're into the grittier, less fairy-tale side of fantasy, you should read Moorcock (of course) and Leiber, if you haven't already… the "classics" of antihero sword and sorcery, along with Howard. And you'll probably adore Karl Edward Wagner's "Kane" series.


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## Philip Overby (Feb 28, 2011)

I would like to read the Kane series but you have to pay like 100 dollars to get them or something ridiculous like that.  I have read some of Lieber, but I would like to read more.  The Black Company series seems "dark" to me, but like you said, not gruesome or anything.  

I read some of the Elric series and kind of had mixed feelings about it.  Maybe I'll try again because I really want to like it.


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## Ravana (Mar 1, 2011)

Eh… don't force yourself, if they don't do anything for you. Honestly, much of Moorcock doesn't work for me, and I've actually found the Elric books to be among the least rewarding of the lot. Try _The Eternal Champion_ (and its sequels, though I haven't read either), the Hawkmoon and Corum books, or _The War Hound and the World's Pain_ (and sequels, which again I haven't read)… the last of these being my favorite. At least none of those protagonists whine their way through the entire series.…

Cook has written a considerable amount of other fantasy, too, of which I've only had the chance to read one example thus far; I have no reason to believe the rest would be any less entertaining. I'm looking forward to being able to collect the Dread Empire and Instrumentalities series, though my book-buying budget is sadly strapped at present. Good news is those are all still in print. (I have no idea what his Garrett, P.I. books are like–other than that they're pastiches, so don't expect them to have quite the same tone.  )

Most of the Kane books should be available online as used paperbacks, at used-paperback prices, if you aren't worried about the condition the spine is in. With any luck, they'll see reprinting sometime before the universe succumbs to entropy; I'd think the prices the last reprints are going for would justify a publisher putting them out again. (_Bloodstone_, the one I'd say is the best, is also the one I see cheapest on Amazon.)


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## Amanita (Mar 6, 2011)

Generally, I don't mind darkness in Fantasy stories. 
At least not as long as I can take an interest in the story. If it's about various noble lords who all spill the blood of their underlings like water while back-stabbing their peers I'll have trouble getting interested because I wouldn't care one bit which one of those wins the end. (Or if they all kill each other.) 
I prefer stories were there are people who have some sort of ideals and goals beyond money and power even though they might use dark means to achieve their preferred results. 
Or stories were there is an actual divison into a "good" and "evil" side in the beginning with the lines blurring in the course of the story.
Stories that are only about the most gruesome ways of killing/torturing people aren't my sort of thing either, they just don't "give me" anything interesting.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 6, 2011)

For me, stories with characters with a shade of gray instead of good and evil are more interesting because I can relate to them more.  I've never met a real "good" or "evil" person in real life, so I wouldn't know what they're like.  Stories like that are fine, but I'm not into them as much anymore.  The line blurring is good for me, but I notice most stories with a set "good team" and set "evil team" rarely do any line blurring.  The Dragonlance series was like that.  I loved that series, a long time ago.  That kind of story doesn't whet my whistle now.

I'm not really into torturing and violence just for the sake of it either.  If it's just mindless killing then I kind of zone out.  But Joe Abercrombie actually has a torturer as one of his main characters in his first series.  He's an awful person, but you feel bad for him.  Plus, his sense of humor is rather interesting...

George R.R. Martin has been labeled "the American Tolkien" by some, and his stories are often full of betrayal, violence, and controversial topics.  If you look up best fantasy of all time, his name will come up in the top 3 usually on almost every list.  

I still like traditional fantasy every so often, but give me Martin, Erikson, or Abercrombie any day over anyone else.


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## Donny Bruso (Mar 6, 2011)

Martin excels in line blurring and his characters have more shades of gray than just about any I've ever seen. Abercrombie's choice of Glokta for one of his main characters is interesting, but I never got the impression that the torture was what the scenes were about. That was almost coincidental they way he wrote it. For Glokta, I think it's really the test of wills that he enjoys, not the actual harming of people.

Which brings up an interesting point about character creation which may not totally belong here, but since I'm already writing this post you all can suffer. 

A good character, one who blurs lines as we all appreciate and defies the labels of good or bad, has to have at least two sharply contrasting traits. These are usually, if not always in direct conflict with each other. As an example, another of Abercrombie's characters, Logen Nine-fingers, is more or less on his way to becoming a pacifist. He doesn't want to fight anymore, and would really like to settle down in peace, but he's pretty much the most famous Named Man in the north, and probably the preeminent warrior of his country, especially in his alter ego of the Bloody Nine.

Another example, Ned Stark from A Game of Thrones, known throughout the kingdom as an honest and honorable man, frequently reflects in dreams about 'the lies he tells for love'.

The more directions your character is pulled in, the more chances they have to move beyond the simple definition of black or white.


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## Amanita (Mar 6, 2011)

> The line blurring is good for me, but I notice most stories with a set "good team" and set "evil team" rarely do any line blurring.


Yes, that sadly is true. Maybe I should explain this a bit better. I don't mean something like "Sauron and his Orcs wanting to conquer the world" but a situation were one side has the law on its side while the others are the aggressors (enemy country, terrorist organisation, whatever) but keeps going ever further to "protect" themselves against this thread. 

Actually, I don't really have a good side and an evil side in my stories but I'm not sure if I'm entirely happy with that. Especially in the one with the war, I'm worried that no one will be able to identify with the main characters given they way they act. Their enemies do hold some rather twisted beliefs but so do they, and many of the people they're killing are only fighting because they want to protect their homeland. 
And it's getting pretty dark as well, that's why it's not that wrong here.

Edit: Donny, I hadn't seen your post. I'm also fascinated by those characters with various conflicting traits and think they should be used more often. 
Another question I'm asking myself: Are there any actions/personality traits that are still acceptable for a main character and others that completely cross the line for you?


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## Mdnight Falling (Mar 7, 2011)

I wanna read darkness!!!!!!!!!! O.O Sorry Sorry you've picced my interest Phil LOL


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## At Dusk I Reign (Mar 12, 2011)

Hmm, darkness in fiction. I'm not sure I've read too many fantasy novels I would consider 'dark'. I've read quite a few that could be considered gritty, but they seldom rise above that; some authors seem to believe that random mutilations and twisting allegiances is a sign they're delving deep into the human psyche. 

Then again, maybe they are and I've missed the point. 

Anyway, given the opportunity I'd point them in the direction of Titus Groan and Gormenghast. They're _dark_.


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## Jimmy deadcode (Mar 16, 2011)

To me, people seem to have different ideas about what 'dark' actually is. I don't think it's about content, like violence or moral grey areas. Darkness is about tone to me, a certain outlook or feeling of the writing overall.

I'm also really into electronic music (bare with me) and we have this discussion all the time. Some people seem to think that just because something is heavy, has lots of noise, is distorted and is agressive that there fore it is dark as well. That isn't the case. The same sort of thing applies here to fiction as well.

So when people refer to 'dark' in fiction, especially fantasy, what they most often mean is violent or gory, not actually dark.

That's the way it seems to me any way.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 16, 2011)

While violence certainly comes with the 'dark fantasy' name, I don't think that alone gets the title. From my experience, things that are called 'dark' are just more pessimistic. Less likely to have an entirely happy ending. The fact that this is done through violence and gore is perhaps something that can be argued, but it isn't the violence alone.


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