# Un-Naming



## Meg the Healer (Mar 14, 2012)

So, I've been kicking an idea around for a while in the latest rendition/rewrite of my current novel about what I call "The Un-naming."

To un-name someone (in my world) is to erase their existence and destroy their soul. The past, present, and future are gone but the Nameless one doesn't die - they just have no purpose. They are basically ghosts as their actions have no effect on anyone or anything as their "fate" has been erased and they will never be reborn.

I'm wondering if this is even a good idea or even plausible because it raises so many questions - like if their past is erased and they are the direct reason why such and such event occured will you create a paradox and so on and so forth. Or would it be that the events occured, but no one could remember how they got to the state they're in because the memory of the Nameless one is no more and they will have no further role to play in the future?

Is this a good idea? In need of a more fleshed-out approached? Or is it a thought that can be added but in the "great debate" of this fantasical world where people threaten to have someone un-named, yet no one knows how to go about doing it or if it has ever been done (for who could remember?)?

Thoughts? Comments? Questions? Concerns?

I'm hungry.:smoke:


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## JCFarnham (Mar 14, 2012)

No idea is a bad idea, because in writing all ideas have the potential to be good ideas. 

The fact that is raises many questions should be a _wonderful_ thing to discover. After all, the crux of worldbuilding is the question, the what if, the why, how, where and what. Work through those questions the unnaming calls to light and try and find a way of resolving them into one internal consistant "thing". This is fiction, it shouldn't matter whether it could happen in the real world just as long as it makes sense in the narrative. A paradox is a great thing (and widely written about you'll find). All kinds of interesting avenues are open to you!

I'm not trying to stop you from working on this. Just because people have worked with lots of different paradox before doesn't mean you shouldn't. 

The main questions I'd want to answer are; _How, if Unnamed individuals "don't exist", aren't remembered and never will be remembered, do you plan to involve this pecularity in the story? Does your protagonist have some kind of rare sight? Or do they become Unnamed themselves and the story follows them? If the Unnamed have no purpose then can there be any inherent conflict?_

I imagine there are *many* stories that could be told in this setting!


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## myrddin173 (Mar 14, 2012)

I love this idea because the ramifications of such a thing are interesting to figure out.  One example that is similar to this is in the Eragon books.  In them the dragons did some mojo and "cursed" the dragons of the 13 Forsworn thereby removing their true names.  As a result they went mad because they couldn't even say "I..."  Of course I think whatever you will write will be far superior to his work.

Another thing that I thought of when you were talking about the effect on the past is Balefire from the Wheel of Time series.  It is a very dangerous thing, something even the worst of the bad guys sort of feel.  So the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of an Age from the threads of people's lives.  Now what Balefire does is burn a person's thread going back in time, having the cease to exist before they were destroyed.  Whatever they did during that time (varies according to how powerful the person doing the balefiring is, most can only do a few seconds others hours, days...) never happened, however people still remember/think that it did.

Of course none of this could apply but I think this is some food for thought.


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## BeigePalladin (Mar 14, 2012)

a very intresting idea, and cerainly stands out. I'm just wondering something; the unamed person, do _they_ remeber what has happened but be unable to relate it, or is it lost to them as well?


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## Steerpike (Mar 14, 2012)

You could make it real or even make it a societal construct.

If you've ever read Clan of the Cave Bear, the Neanderthals have a ritual whereby they banish a member of the tribe to the spirit world (or something like that as I recall). The banished person is basically erased, as far as the tribe is concerned. It does something mentally to the rest of the tribe, so that they truly think the person is dead even though the person is still standing in front of them. The banished person does in fact die. Of course, it works differently for Ayla because she's human, and her brain doesn't have the Neanderthal wiring that allows this effect to take place.

Anyway, one example of something along the lines of what you are talking about, but where there is no real physical change, just a psychological one.


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## Queshire (Mar 14, 2012)

Hmm.... that actually sounds familiar, I think I heard about something a lot like that in another book, but I can't remember it.

Personally, I suggest making it just a social concept, nothing magical, the unperson is just an unperson to their culture. 

I don't think it'd matter if it'd cause a paradox, the person doing the unaming wouldn't even know that they did it, so it wouldn't matter if there was a paradox.

The un-naming sounds extremely powerful, like god-level powerful. As you suggest it, the person would be unoticible, more then invisible, and all his actions would have to become undone after he did them, if he took a bit of food then it would grow back, if he cut someone then they'd heal, etc, and so on.


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## Helen (Mar 14, 2012)

Meg the Healer said:


> So I've been kicking an idea around for a while in the latest rendition/rewerite of my current novel about what I call "The Un-naming."
> 
> To un-name someone (in my world) is to erase their existence and destroy their soul. The past, present, future are gone but the Nameless one doesn't die - they just have no purpose. They are basically ghosts as their actions have no effect on anyone or anything as their "fate" has been erased and they will never be reborn.
> 
> ...



I think it's a great idea. Needs fleshing out, but a good idea. I can already see the bestselling novel and the blockbuster franchise 

It kinda sounds a bit like LOGAN'S RUN, where everyone over 30 has to die. You could use that as a model - those who are about to be UNNAMED run away and are pursued by the soldiers of those who do the UNNAMING.

Or how about those who have already been UNNAMED find a way back to wreak havoc and the good guys have to re-UNNAME them.

Or how about your android hero comes back in time to prevent the child of a future hero from being UNNAMED.

There's your trilogy right there


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## ThinkerX (Mar 15, 2012)

Jasper Fforde did something like this with his 'Shades of Grey' - certain very real objects and people were deemed 'invisibles' and to actually admit to being able to see them was a major social faux pas - possibly with criminal implications.  (the lives of the main characters were complicated because they had one such character living in their house but couldn't do anything about him, because that would mean admitting he existed in the first place.)

CJ Cherryh in her 'Wave Without a Shore' had a similiar concept: a class of social failures on a colony world (including the native aliens!) who were arbitrarily declared 'invisibles'.  That situation eventually blew up dramatically with riots and revolution.

In the real world (more or less) there is something vaguely similiar in the more superstitious corners of the world - like the middle east.  There, entire segments of the populace believe absolutely that 'sorcerers' have real powers.  Get on the wrong side of such a sorcerer, have him hit you with a curse, well, the unfortunate local in question is treated as a 'dead man walking' by everybody, including himself.  (Used to be some short, weird snippits of this in connection with the first Gulf War and 9-11).  The victims religion, protective measures, ect, were all seen as completely inadequate to forestall doom.


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## Janga (Mar 15, 2012)

It kind of reminds me of the book Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay, except it is a kingdom/land that is forgotten. You should check it out as it may open ideas for you that you haven't considered.


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## Meg the Healer (Mar 15, 2012)

BeigePalladin said:


> a very intresting idea, and cerainly stands out. I'm just wondering something; the unamed person, do _they_ remeber what has happened but be unable to relate it, or is it lost to them as well?



That's one of the things I am considering as well. The character I would have this done to played a "huge" part in the war that is started and later became a blood-traitor. He's spent the last 10,000 years trying redeem his actions and the role he played in the start of the war. But because there are so many facets and I would hate to lose him as a character - it makes me wonder if I could have him be unnamed but he is able to plant his ideas into others as one of the powers he has is to infiltrate dreams. Since so many people dismiss their dreams he would have no real effect on events.

Thanks for all the suggestions and the books that seem to have an idea like this already. I'll definitely check them out. I'm a little surprised (but not really) that there were concepts already out there. Makes me wonder how original any of my ideas are....


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## JCFarnham (Mar 16, 2012)

Meg the Healer said:


> Thanks for all the suggestions and the books that seem to have an idea like this already. I'll definitely check them out. I'm a little surprised (but not really) that there were concepts already out there. Makes me wonder how original any of my ideas are....



The trick is to not worry about having original ideas. Now I'm not the kind to say its impossible because honestly bestselling authors do it tri-yearly _plus_, it's just hard work and comes with practice and being widely read. The real thing we should push for is well written stories and perhaps to tred most untrodden paths through "unoriginal ideas". New perspectives and that.

Basically what I'm trying to say is if you're extra inspired by an idea then you should write it  you never know!


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 17, 2012)

I just wanted to add a little note though it appears you are well on your way.....
What if your characters underwent a sort of memory erase when they became unnamed, but without the social consequences?  And people are afraid that someone could just erase them and send them back out into the world without knowing whether what they know is real or not and something happened during one of the rituals, leaving someone aware their memory had been tampered with?  I had a character and I thought about doing just that..... erasing her memory, but leaving just enough so she knew she was missing it.


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## Queshire (Mar 17, 2012)

On a related note what ani brought up, I considered doing a punishment in a more sci-fi story getting your memories wiped and being turned into a baby, instead of a death sentence you get another chance at life.


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## Phin Scardaw (Mar 19, 2012)

what if an Unnamed could find, steal, or create a new name, and return from the side of the Forgotten?

everyone wears blinders. in your own neighbourhood, how much do you really look at your surroundings? you take most of it for granted, and so it escapes your notice. there's a lot of blind spots for gods, monsters, and ghosts to hide in, even in reality. a god could prevent anyone perceiving him by bending light around him. Anyone looking directly at the god would just see the line of light that had been diverted, like looking around a corner. 

so maybe in your story there are forces that bend people's minds away from the unnamed. 

there's also the possibility of an unnamed character finding a relic or spell that allows him or her to have some small amount of personal fate. so they can direct things, interact briefly with others, and have an effect on the world, hopefully enough to push along a plot that would involve renaming, or regaining the erased name. the conflict of such a story would then arise from: How best to use the small amount of influence one has, and how to get more if needed. As the story progresses, there can even be degrees of erasure, or transparency. Perhaps the erased character can use stronger spells to become more tangible - but at a terrible price!


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## Rikilamaro (Mar 20, 2012)

Another suggestion for a similar concept is Terry Goodkind's Chainfire. The characters use a spell to erase the memory of someone from all the other's memories. It almost works except for the counteraction of the Sword of Truth. There are three books that deal with the resolution of this spell, and it may be helpful reading. 

I like the idea, especially the part about affecting dreams. It sounds promising and intriguing. There may be similar concepts out there, but that doesn't mean your spin on it won't be surprising and original.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 20, 2012)

It's so interesting how a concept like this can be used and used again by so many people, and yet it manifests in each one's work so uniquely.


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## Taytortots (Mar 20, 2012)

To be honest, the first thing I thought about was The Dementers Kiss in HP. It's a similar concept.
That said, I really do like the idea. I can see how it would be a great aspect of the World, and the story. If done right, it would be very interesting. 
I think you're right, it does raise a lot of questions, but that can be a good thing if you want this to be part of your plot. As long as you can flesh out the details and have answers to all the questions, I think this is a really intriguing idea. I'd be interested to see where it goes.


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## Meg the Healer (Mar 20, 2012)

Thanks everyone. You've given me some new insights and some new questions. Of course, now I thought I something else and I think I'm just being slightly unfocused, however.....

What about this concept - my MC has led an awful life due to the role she would play in the death of the Gods. Since one of the gods (in order to save their own life) bless/cursed her with immortality to allow her to seek vengeance on the gods that tormented her, how about my MC looking to become the one unnamed? Since in my world there is the cycle of life, death, rebirth, she wants nothing more than to die and be done. As she's lived for 10's of thousands of years now - she is wondering if the Fate Goddess she spoke to led her on a wild goose chase and there is no way to be unnamed or the Fate Goddess was trying to show her a way that her immortal cycle could be broken and she can be reborn into a "normal" less prophetic life.

Would people read that? It's seems rather morbid. But I'm wondering if that would make a better "sub-plot" for the MC to be the one that wants to be Un-named versus it be a punishment inflicted on someone else. Hmm....now I've given myself something more to consider.

Thoughts?


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## BeigePalladin (Mar 20, 2012)

Meg the Healer said:


> Thanks everyone. You've given me some new insights and some new questions. Of course, now I thought I something else and I think I'm just being slightly unfocused, however.....
> 
> What about this concept - my MC has led an awful life due to the role she would play in the death of the Gods. Since one of the gods (in order to save their own life) bless/cursed her with immortality to allow her to seek vengeance on the gods that tormented her, how about my MC looking to become the one unnamed? Since in my world there is the cycle of life, death, rebirth, she wants nothing more than to die and be done. As she's lived for 10's of thousands of years now - she is wondering if the Fate Goddess she spoke to led her on a wild goose chase and there is no way to be unnamed or the Fate Goddess was trying to show her a way that her immortal cycle could be broken and she can be reborn into a "normal" less prophetic life.
> 
> ...



it sounds quite effective for a concept, and adds a nice stinger if you first reveal that un-naming is a punishment THEN reveal the MC's goals. I'd definatly read that 

also, on th idea of someone who wants to be unnamed, it made me think of something else; would it be possible to only partially un-name someone, because I can see lots of tactical uses for someone who's 1/2 unnoticable and intangible as a servant/agent of some sort? just thourying here, but it jumped out at me.


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## Phin Scardaw (Mar 20, 2012)

personally, I'd have a much easier time relating to a character who'd been punished (justly or unjustly) by being unnamed and wanted to get back to life rather than a character who's so old (yet not very wise if she wants to give up on life) and bent on suicide. at that point, she functions more as a goddess herself, being immortal with self-destructive motives that go against human nature - so it is an interesting arc for a character, but I would be careful undertaking such a story. The ending in particular would probably need a twist for me to feel emotionally satisfied once the climax had passed. I wouldn't want her to succeed in dying, but I'd want to see her evolve past her death-wish, maybe going from immortal human to actual goddess. 

if she's leading a "prophetic life" it would be more gripping if the prophecy is fulfilled, perhaps in ways totally unexpected; or if it turns out that the prophecy was initially misunderstood and only at the end of the story does your protagonist see the true meaning of the prophecy, and the way of fulfilling it that frees her.


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## thetraveler (Mar 20, 2012)

Meg the Healer said:


> Thanks everyone. You've given me some new insights and some new questions. Of course, now I thought I something else and I think I'm just being slightly unfocused, however.....
> 
> What about this concept - my MC has led an awful life due to the role she would play in the death of the Gods. Since one of the gods (in order to save their own life) bless/cursed her with immortality to allow her to seek vengeance on the gods that tormented her, how about my MC looking to become the one unnamed? Since in my world there is the cycle of life, death, rebirth, she wants nothing more than to die and be done. As she's lived for 10's of thousands of years now - she is wondering if the Fate Goddess she spoke to led her on a wild goose chase and there is no way to be unnamed or the Fate Goddess was trying to show her a way that her immortal cycle could be broken and she can be reborn into a "normal" less prophetic life.
> 
> ...



I would read that. To me, characters with death wishes are incredibly fun to read/watch, because they have a level of courage/balls that no one else has since they really don't give a care if they die. I like.


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## Rikilamaro (Mar 21, 2012)

_
As she's lived for 10's of thousands of years now - she is wondering if the Fate Goddess she spoke to led her on a wild goose chase and there is no way to be unnamed or the Fate Goddess was trying to show her a way that her immortal cycle could be broken and she can be reborn into a "normal" less prophetic life.

Would people read that? It's seems rather morbid. But I'm wondering if that would make a better "sub-plot" for the MC to be the one that wants to be Un-named versus it be a punishment inflicted on someone else. Hmm....now I've given myself something more to consider._

Well, this sounds like Durzo in the Night Angel trilogy by Brent Weeks. He dies, but only for a short period of time, until he comes back to life. This happens for thousands of years until life looses it's luster, and he becomes rather bitter until he is given one last life and becomes immortal.

I like it though, and yes I would read it. Think of the changes in history, culture, and technology the character would have seen. It's mind boggling. Think also of the friends she meets and how it must hurt to loose your friends over and over again. What if she had children? Would those children's children know who she was? Does she age or appear to? 

I like the idea that this is a great subplot and goal for her to strive for.


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## Meg the Healer (Mar 22, 2012)

anihow said:


> I just wanted to add a little note though it appears you are well on your way.....
> What if your characters underwent a sort of memory erase when they became unnamed, but without the social consequences?  And people are afraid that someone could just erase them and send them back out into the world without knowing whether what they know is real or not and something happened during one of the rituals, leaving someone aware their memory had been tampered with?  I had a character and I thought about doing just that..... erasing her memory, but leaving just enough so she knew she was missing it.



I was actually thinking about wiping the memories from her and "everything else" that happened to her. But like all good stories, I also like the - you seem familiar to me and I know I used to trust you, but me as I am now don't know if I should - attitudes. As a lot of my novel as even me guessing who side everyone is on - it makes for an interesting twist. I'll shall think more on this. Thank you.



BeigePalladin said:


> it sounds quite effective for a concept, and adds a nice stinger if you first reveal that un-naming is a punishment THEN reveal the MC's goals. I'd definatly read that
> 
> also, on th idea of someone who wants to be unnamed, it made me think of something else; would it be possible to only partially un-name someone, because I can see lots of tactical uses for someone who's 1/2 unnoticable and intangible as a servant/agent of some sort? just thourying here, but it jumped out at me.



I'm an "in for a penny in for a pound" kinda of writer. Not that I haven't considered partially unnaming - I just don't think the concept works for my world as I don't really have any high stealth/rogue characters that would have this be a "useful" skill to have. But it is something to consider for a future creation - just not the one I'm currently working on.



Phin Scardaw said:


> personally, I'd have a much easier time relating to a character who'd been punished (justly or unjustly) by being unnamed and wanted to get back to life rather than a character who's so old (yet not very wise if she wants to give up on life) and bent on suicide. at that point, she functions more as a goddess herself, being immortal with self-destructive motives that go against human nature - so it is an interesting arc for a character, but I would be careful undertaking such a story. The ending in particular would probably need a twist for me to feel emotionally satisfied once the climax had passed. I wouldn't want her to succeed in dying, but I'd want to see her evolve past her death-wish, maybe going from immortal human to actual goddess.
> 
> if she's leading a "prophetic life" it would be more gripping if the prophecy is fulfilled, perhaps in ways totally unexpected; or if it turns out that the prophecy was initially misunderstood and only at the end of the story does your protagonist see the true meaning of the prophecy, and the way of fulfilling it that frees her.



I see where you're coming from. It even made me question the morbidity of reading about someone wanting to commit suicide and actually succeeding at it. Should you feel happy for them - because it's what they wanted? Should you feel disgusted that they didn't find a reason to live? I get it.

In my world (and maybe even in my own reality) I don't know if I would consider her un-wise or that she is wanting to give up on life. There is a motto she lives by and something she says repeatedly to those who are willing to listen. Her motto is "I am the master of my fate. I am the captain of my soul. For I shall sever the chains of fate that bind me." I do have a few converstations about her relunctance to "enjoy life". I think I have them playing a game (which is something my friends and I do) of "if you could have any one thing in the world, what would it be." One of them says - to become immortal - and her retort is "try it sometime." I can even see that it would be amazing to live forever and see every change that happens along with all the history and cultures you would encounter. But at the same time - everyone has their time and every thing as its place. Even the gods (for she is their death). I am still reconciling the position she is in - because she never asked to be part of any major destiny (not that anyone ever does, mind you) and she feels that it was rather unfair of the Fates/Gods to use her the way they did.

But that's neither here nor there - I've got a lot to consider. And like I said - I see your point. I have kind of the same issues.


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## Phin Scardaw (Mar 22, 2012)

Well, I think that anything can be pulled off, if the writer finds the way to do it. Follow the yellow brick road, see where it takes you. 

I know that I've written about both: I have a main character in my novel who commits suicide at the outset of the book, and once he journeys through the afterlife he returns to eventually meet a man who's stricken with unwanted immortality. This turns out to be King Arthur, who as legend has it was brought into Avalon after he was mortally wounded - but he's unable to die because he made a deal with Morgan le Fey to return Excalibur to her; so he's healed and sent back to find the sword that Bedivere made off with. After 1500 years of searching and watching the world give way to corruption, Arthur is sick of it and wants to be given the chance to move on in his natural evolution. He's world-weary and quite plainly wants to die. 

It's very possible that a person in that position would want nothing else, and if you feel compelled to explore that, go for it! 

But I would have a hard time writing this spent version of Arthur as a main character. I think he works as a secondary character, because as such he can be mysterious and impossible to relate to. He is not even human at that point because a man who is immortal is more god than man. That is very tricky ground to tread - not because it has no literary value, but because readers find themselves drawn to characters they can relate to. That's why most main characters in generic adventure stories aren't already fearless warriors at the outset - because who can relate to that? 

Arthur seeks only rest and peace. I mean, he's been on a quest for 1500some years. If your character has a positive attitude about moving on from her life, that's already easier to relate to than suicidal despair. If she knew that in the afterlife, or in the next life, she would be happy, that puts a positive spin on it and allows a reader to accept it as a viable goal.

In my same story, as mentioned above, my main character kills himself. The hardest time I've had with this book is to try to explain why he does this in a way that I know others can relate to. Quite simply, he feels compelled to interact with divine forces and mystical powers - but he has no way of summoning such things. He reasons that the only mystical experience every person is promised is death, and if this is what people fear the most it must also hold the greatest power for those who know how to find it. So he goes on a quest, and in the end he winds up adopting Arthur's quest. Such a heady theme like suicide works best I believe if it is kept as a MEANS and not as an END.

Like Cobb says in "Inception": "Positive emotion trumps negative emotion every time."


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## Krieger (May 23, 2012)

Madeleine L'Engle used this in _A Wind in the Door._ But thankfully as there is nothing new under the sun, there's no reason you can't make it your own.


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