# Dealing with Dumbledore



## mirrorrorrim (Dec 6, 2011)

Every young hero needs a mentor: someone stronger, smarter, and more invested than he is, who can show him the ropes and get her out of her first tough scrape or two. Luke had Obi-wan. Bilbo had Gandalf. Harry had Dumbledore. 

At some point, though, the hero needs to learn to fight his own battles; she can't just depend on her benevolent guardian forever. I feel that how and when this is done does a lot in determining the tone and course of a story. 

So, my first question is: what do you think the best way is to go about allowing the main character to stand on his own two feet? 

The most popular way seems to be to kill the old benevolent fellow off. Do you think that's best, or is it merely easiest? If there is a better way, then what is it?

My second question goes along with the first: is there a certain point in the story the death of the mentor should ideally transpire by? Many books seem to aim for two-thirds-to-three-fourths of the way through the story. Should it happen that late? Should it happen that early? Why?

Thanks in advance for your responses!


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Dec 6, 2011)

Instead of the old mentor being killed by the villain/dying of old age/"dying" or just disappearing until later in the story, how about:

- the mentor becomes the villain
- the mentor has a falling out with the hero and never wants to see him again (and they never reconcile)
- the hero accidentally kills the mentor (this is more common in humor/parodic stories)
- the mentor accidentally kills the hero and has to complete the quest himself
- the hero gives up and goes home and the mentor has to complete the quest himself
- the hero becomes villainous and the mentor has to defeat him

Stuff like that.

In my WIP, there is no mentor character at all. There are a few older characters (the main characters are all between 18 and 26) but none of them fit into the mentor archetype. Many of them are hostile to the protagonists.


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## Devor (Dec 6, 2011)

How about . . . the student surpasses the mentor and the mentor becomes a "friend" instead?

At some point the mentor relationship has to end for the character to stand up for himself, but there's a hundred ways of doing so.


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## DameiThiessen (Dec 6, 2011)

I haven't thought about killing my mentors. My mentors are characters that grow and develop too, not just side characters that stay the same throughout the story. But if you were to have a teacher like that then I think the character should go out on his own right after his first successful fight. Then the reader can recognize that there has been progress, and the MC has some hope of becoming a hero, but it's not enough to render the mentor useless. That way his or her death will seem untimely, and the character has to continue growing and developing independently, which ultimately makes him stronger and more well-rounded in the end. That also leaves room for different kinds of mentor-like influences, and for the MC to become courageous all on their own.


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## Dreamhand (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm with Benjamin on this one... heroes don't require a mentor.  The mentor archetype is an ancient one, to be sure (oh... don't forget Arthur and Merlin), but I'd recommend giving some serious thought as to why a mentor-type would be relevant to your story.  There are countless tales, contemporary and historical where there are no clear-cut mentor characters.  Don't let the trope decide your story for you, Mirror. 

That said, there is a strong psychological rite of passage where the child must "kill" the father in order to assume his power and become a man.  This is echoed in the mythic hero's cycle time and again, but that death need not be literal... it's a metaphor, marking the transition from youth to maturity... a loss of innocence.  A first kill, a betrayal, a first love... some threshold that can only be crossed by shedding innocence and assuming responsibility for one's actions.

If you choose to embody the threshold of that transition in a mentor character, be sure you understand the purpose he serves in the story.  If he's just a cardboard cut-out of every other mentor, your seasoned fantasy readers will get bored quickly.  Honestly, a good nemesis makes a superb mentor, goading the character, pushing him out of his comfort zone and threatening what he holds dear.  I would argue that Darth Vader was as much a "mentor" to Luke as Obi-Wan was.

The trend of killing off the mentor has almost become cliche, so if you are doing away with the old bugger, don't follow a formula.  Break out of the mold and blaze some new ground in that department (you've gotten some great suggestions along those lines already).  I'll say it again... don't let the genre determine your story for you.  That's your power as a writer... don't hand it off to someone else.


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## Steerpike (Dec 7, 2011)

Dreamhand said:


> I'm with Benjamin on this one... heroes don't require a mentor.  The mentor archetype is an ancient one, to be sure (oh... don't forget Arthur and Merlin), but I'd recommend giving some serious thought as to why a mentor-type would be relevant to your story.



Kind of plays into the monomyth idea, where the hero receives some kind of aid, or an object, from an older, more experienced figure. The mentor in Fantasy often follows along similar lines, and the hero often ends up receiving some magical object of significance to the story. As you say, however, not all stories follow this, nor should they.


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## mirrorrorrim (Dec 8, 2011)

Wow, I'm kind of surprised that so many of you don't see the need for any sort of mentor character.

I think some things are cliches, and others are simply necessary. I would classify mentor characters as the latter. In almost everything in life, there is someone there to teach us. Parents teach us to walk and talk and listen and love. Teachers teach us how to learn and leave home and become responsible adults. Friends teach us how to laugh and play and cry. Spouses teach us to care.

To me, a fantasy story that doesn't contain at least one prominent mentor just doesn't come across as very realistic. Now, of course, this _is_ fantasy, so it doesn't necessarily have to be, but... Personally, I try to make my worlds as believable as I can.

And, honestly, I haven't read a mature work of fantasy that didn't include at least one such mentor character; often there are multiple ones.

I hope I haven't offended anyone with this. It isn't my intention. If I have, I apologize in advance. I'm not always very good at wording things so as to convey the right tone.


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## Devor (Dec 8, 2011)

mirrorrorrim said:


> Wow, I'm kind of surprised that so many of you don't see the need for any sort of mentor character.
> 
> I think some things are cliches, and others are simply necessary. I would classify mentor characters as the latter. In almost everything in life, there is someone there to teach us. Parents teach us to walk and talk and listen and love. Teachers teach us how to learn and leave home and become responsible adults. Friends teach us how to laugh and play and cry. Spouses teach us to care.
> 
> ...



The only thing I would say is that there are some clear exceptions.  The self-taught orphan and killing-off-the-parents-in-chapter-2 are both common and accepted tropes in the Fantasy genre.  Also depending on the story, the "mentor" may just not appear or be relevant.  Or the mentor role may be diffused among so many people throughout your life that nobody really stands out.  But in general people have mentors, although not always of the "Dumbledore" variety.  It's a part of human nature, and I think it needs to be addressed if your work really covers the character's early years.


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## Dreamhand (Dec 8, 2011)

No offense taken, Mirror. This is a discussion board, so differing opinions are welcome and respected... and sometimes hotly debated 



> Parents teach us to walk and talk and listen and love. Teachers teach us how to learn and leave home and become responsible adults. Friends teach us how to laugh and play and cry. Spouses teach us to care.



No argument here... but my wife isn't Obi-wan (and if she WAS, I'm not sure I'd have married her).  My best friend isn't Merlin (but don;t tell HIM that).  We learn from every experience we participate in and from every person we come in contact with.  That doesn't necessarily qualify them as a mentor, does it?

I may have misinterpreted your initial post, but it sounded like your were working towards the "classic" mentor character, a master of the craft the character wishes to learn who teaches and guides the character in the ways of that craft.  I would hazard a guess that, while many of us have had people that influenced our lives and taught us much, very FEW of us have actually had a mentor for any significant length of time.  

As for contemporary fiction that has no mentors, what about Patrick Rothfuss's "Name of the Wind"?  Guy Gavrielle Kay's brilliant "Lions of al-Rassan" followed two characters who were already masters.  Fritz Lieber's Fafred and Grey Mouser series was the same.  While the mentor character is certainly a standard of the genre, I'd argue that - for every book that utilizes it - there is one that does not.


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## Terra Arkay (Dec 8, 2011)

My story includes a mentor of some sort. He's not your typical Dumbledore though. Well to start off, he is young; just a few years older than my main character, he is still learning, he shares his limited knowledge with my main character. I'd say it's all about the tweaks, in most stories, you'd find that the mentor is this old, wise guy who has mastered the arts and what not.


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## Amanita (Dec 8, 2011)

I don't really like the "perfect mentor who dies" even though like everything it can be done well. My own mentor character is a highly skilled and intelligent but otherwise very flawed person. The protagonist is drifting into different directions in many ways, therefore I don't really have this problem. 
If you do have the classical mentor, circumstances could simply force the hero away from him, the group could be separated or something else along those lines.


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## phoenixwings (Dec 8, 2011)

I think mentors being necessary in stories, especially Fantasy because somewhere, usually at the beginning the MC can be seen to be directionless. They tend to struggle without anyone to shed light on where they should be heading whether that be physically, emotionally or mentally etc. 

My story has three main ones and two who tend to take a back seat. Each of them teach, inspire and encourage her to take on the challenge of defeating the bad guys but none of them are actually there in the throws of battle. 

Maybe this could be some of use to you.


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## Ness (Dec 9, 2011)

Very interesting ideas here! I am hoping my 'mentor' character will graciously step aside when the time comes and let my hero have his day.


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## Erica (Dec 10, 2011)

Another angle is that the hero 'rebels' against the mentor at some point. He/she respectfully (or disrespectfully) decides that he/she has to do something that the mentor might not want ... and goes and does it. Learning to strike out on one's own and deal with the potential consequences can be part of a coming of age story without killing off the mentor.

How said mentor reacts and whether or not it turns out to be the right thing to have done, is of course, up in the air.

It is possible that the mentor, though very very wonderful, is still imperfect in some way. Part of growing up is learning when to tell when your teacher/parent/sage is wrong about something.

Another possibility is having the mentor forcefully ejecting the protege/protegee from the nest.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Dec 12, 2011)

You could always skip the mentor and go strait for the learn it the hard way?  A character doesn't always have to have someone show them the path, sometimes they just happen to stumble onto it and get taken down it so fast they don't have any idea how to get off.  So, you don't have to deal with a Dumbledore if you kill him off before the main character runs into him.


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## DameiThiessen (Dec 12, 2011)

Erica said:


> Another angle is that the hero 'rebels' against the mentor at some point. He/she respectfully (or disrespectfully) decides that he/she has to do something that the mentor might not want ... and goes and does it. Learning to strike out on one's own and deal with the potential consequences can be part of a coming of age story without killing off the mentor.
> 
> How said mentor reacts and whether or not it turns out to be the right thing to have done, is of course, up in the air.
> 
> ...


I like to see an MC find out their mentor is actually conspiring against them, which makes them leave and eventually learn things on their own that their mentor otherwise would not have taught them.


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## ScipioSmith (Dec 14, 2011)

Wow...you guys are making me feel stereotypical. I do have a mentor, and he dies about two thirds/three quarters the way through and then comes back as a spirit adviser . In my defence however, I don't think you can have a character say that he would go to his death with a glad smile and a high heart if it would be for the good of his country and then not have him do it at some point.

One thing I would say though, with regard to having the hero stand on his own, is that he doesn't have to wait until the mentor's gone to start. In fact I'll like the hero better the earlier he starts trying. My mentor figures doesn't even consider the hero worth mentoring until after he insists on taking on some villains single-handed.

I think the thing you have to consider is what the mentor sees in the hero that is worth teaching; and have the hero display those qualities as quickly as possible.


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## Neurosis (Dec 14, 2011)

Why do heroes always have to be young enough to need a mentor?


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Dec 14, 2011)

How about a hero who's 63, and his mentor ends up being a 30-year-old who's actually had a lot more experience with the kind of adventuring the hero needs to do (the hero was, up until now, a farmer). But of course the hero is the Chosen One and for whatever reason his Call to Action didn't happen until he was nearing retirement.

I'm sure something like that's been done, but that sprang to mind.


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## Neurosis (Dec 14, 2011)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> How about a hero who's 63, and his mentor ends up being a 30-year-old who's actually had a lot more experience with the kind of adventuring the hero needs to do (the hero was, up until now, a farmer). But of course the hero is the Chosen One and for whatever reason his Call to Action didn't happen until he was nearing retirement.
> 
> I'm sure something like that's been done, but that sprang to mind.



What a nice idea. I think I would very much like that, especially if its written in a Richard Morgan-esque style where he is always saying "I'm too old for this shit"... and genuinely hates his young spritely mentor.


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## JBryden88 (Dec 15, 2011)

The closest thing to having a mentor in my story...
The High King in relation to the main hero. Except he's not a mentor, they do but heads, and by the end of it, words are spoken that cannot be taken back


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## Elder the Dwarf (Dec 15, 2011)

Neurosis said:


> What a nice idea. I think I would very much like that, especially if its written in a Richard Morgan-esque style where he is always saying "I'm too old for this shit"... and genuinely hates his young spritely mentor.



That's what we call "pulling a murtaugh"


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## James Chandler (Dec 17, 2011)

So, I'm amused there is a discussion about how to come up with good ideas. This thread is a prime example of how to come up with ideas. Start SOMEWHERE and take it SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Analyzing this topic, reading the comments, and considering the matter in relation to my own WIP, actually lead me to an epiphany about myself.  I won't share the details, too personal, but it's pretty interesting. Self-awareness is a writer's greatest tool; so, how does your writing reflect who you are? But, the other thing it made me consider is, what about a bad mentor? I don't mean evil, just not good at being a mentor. He could be a terrible teacher, but still a mentor to the MC. Or he could be great at teaching one thing or a couple of things, but terrible at teaching others.  This could be a great source of dramatic conflict, but be careful of making it too contrived.


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## InsanityStrickenWriter (Dec 17, 2011)

My story's MC mentor hasn't actually been written in yet, but I plan for him to be a fat, greying drunk. I'm sure he'll be a great mentor though...


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## Aegrus (Dec 19, 2011)

Dreamhand said:


> No offense taken, Mirror. This is a discussion board, so differing opinions are welcome and respected... and sometimes hotly debated
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree with you completely.  There is no need for a mentor to be of the old, "classic" type.  There may not be a need for a mentor roll in the first place, depending on what your story is.  I feel that mentors (and any characters with many answers, for that matter) all too often become a respected way to info-dump so the protagonist doesn't have to figure out the "boring stuff" on his own, but can rather jump right to the action.  (You know it's true.  Whether it's Bromi-Wan, oops, I mean Obi-Brom, oh. . .  Brom or Obi-Wan, many mentors are used to give a training montage and fling the protagonist more quickly into action.)

But I contest this traditional view by proposing that, if written right, the characters journey of self realization can be integral to the story, and interesting, even if getting to the action takes longer.  When I write, I typically try to surround the protagonist by supporting dynamic characters with unique skills, and they tend to act as mentors to each other.  All the characters learn from each other as the book goes on, and the protagonist's gradual learning combines with the main story arc to (hopefully- I'm not sure if I ever pull it off) give the entire story more meaning.


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