# What is the role of magic in your world?



## Greybeard (Mar 23, 2011)

Have you defined how magic works in your fictional world?  Is it something forbidden and feared?  Or is it a part of daily life?

Which approach is more appealing to the reader, and which is more satisfying for the author?


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## Amanita (Mar 23, 2011)

> Have you defined how magic works in your fictional world? Is it something forbidden and feared? Or is it a part of daily life?


Yes to the first question. 
I have two forms of magic. One is inborn in everyone who is a descendent of the Lerca, spirits of nature. It is not a part of daily life for most people because it doesn’t turn up too often. If it does, it’s really well-respected among most people. There’s not country where this form of magic is banned or its users persecuted, as long as they don’t abuse their powers.
And then there’s elemental magic. It is not inborn but acquired, which is one of the reasons why it’s looked upon with a certain distrust. There’s no guarantee that it will only turn up in “worthy” people, which is believed of the first form of magic. It can also be extremely dangerous of course and is viewed by many as against nature or life or both. In one country its use is banned completely and the practitioners are hunted down, in others they have to follow strict rules. Often the people using different elements are viewed differently. This depends on the properties of the element and the actions of the most recent (in)famous user if it.



> Which approach is more appealing to the reader, and which is more satisfying for the author?



That’s a difficult and interesting question. Most stories I know have only “evil” magic as something forbidden and feared and the readers are supposed to share that believe. This may or may not work depending on the story.
Secret, hidden magical societies the main character is introduced into surely have a certain appeal. Outright persecution doesn’t really, at least not for me. Especially stories where the good, special and powerful magicians are hunted down by some ignorant others are rather annoying in my opinion. 
Absolutely “everyday” magic isn’t perfect either because it threatens to take away the specialness of magic, but this doesn’t have to be the case.
The same goes for the rest of the above, by the way. If done well, all of it can make an appealing story, if done badly everything can get annoying.

Which approach is more satisfying for the author? I think this really depends on the author’s personality, the issues important to him and the story he wants to tell. I don’t believe that there’s any general rule.


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## Chilari (Mar 23, 2011)

In my current work in progress, there is no magic. Or rather, magic doesn't exist, though this doesn't stop people from believing it exists. It is something people are generally suspicious of, and some bad things that happen are blamed on people using magic, but the evilness of this is squarely on the person performing dark magic rather than the magic itself. Thus magic has a generally bad rep, but people who claim to use magic for say healing and whatnot aren't considered automatically evil.

In the other universe I have written a few stories in, there is magic, but it's a background force - it's what enables my immortals to exist, but it cannot be manipulated. It is basically a force which under certain circumstances, and with certain criteria met, enables collective imagination to become reality. Thus in the prehistory of my universe, several different cultures imagining a personification of a river god, of Death, of shadows, coupled with certain individuals in some way being linked to these traits (someone living and working in a river, someone else being directly or indirectly responsible for several deaths, and someone else living her whole life in the darkness, respectively, resulting in these people becoming immortal personifications of these concepts and geographical concepts due to magic and collective imagination.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 23, 2011)

In my world, magic is something of an abstract concept. The world is an ocean - pure water to the very core - and the life inside the ocean grew to be powerful beings of force. Magic, as they are called. They are magic themselves. These creatures are immortal and near invincible, yet they slumber for thousands of years at a time. They are oft unaware of the worlds around them, though some believe they are actively maleficent. From them, the lands and the world above formed. If one lost a limb (and they have many to spare), it would float to the surface and harden into stone, becoming an island. Some larger continents formed, but few are any larger than Texas or California. Some of the creatures of the sea migrated onto land, evolving vaguely as those creatures in our world did. Plants propped up, fueled by the magical soil, and perhaps most importantly, the remnants of magic became lifeforms themselves, Faeries.

Faeries are parasites, and they seek to destroy the original magic. They created man. When the Magic saw man, they allowed him a chance at magic. They extended his ears as to create a large cavity, where faerie dust could be stored. You see, it needs to have constant contact with the flesh in order to be magical, yet must be kept somewhere where it won't fall before hardening to stone (which is used for earrings thereafter, and still has lingering magical effect). Those humans who accepted the gift became the elves, and those that did not were sent to Earth to live out their days on the odd planet.

That's the history of magic, and the basics of how it works. In practice, not everyone uses magic. It is an option for everyone, provided you can buy or catch (good luck) yourself a faery. There are professional faerie hunters who will sell you a bottled faery for a hefty price, but every now and then you'll get someone lucky enough to catch one themselves. The lower class is far less likely to have a faerie, but people in the middle class can still afford them, and often do. The upper class, if anything, is less likely to use magic, as they benefit more from knowledge than power. Some study magic in certain disciplines, though. Mind reading is a good one. That helps a lot in the business world. It should be noted, though, that before magic can ever become powerful, it must specialize. One cannot learn to read every mind without first giving up the ability to only read one. One woman in my story can move water, but as she ages, her magic can only move pure water, and in the wake of a wave she creates, a pile of sea salt and fish lies behind.

Everything is magical, as well. The world itself is magic, after all. Bonds are created through blood, sex, and time. One can falsify bonds, too. This one is perhaps a somewhat significant role of magic. Rulers, called Royal Fathers here, cannot have magic. It is a safety precaution. But they must be ensured safety from assassination. It became law that the Royal Father must have bound himself to a dragon triumvirate (dragons mate in threes), three dragons who protect him and care for him, yet he cannot order about. There is no telepathic link, no dragon riding, nothing like that. If someone pulls a gun on him, they will be eaten, but he cannot simply order a person on the street to be burned and expect results. That is perhaps the most significant law about magic in existence.

Mostly, the people use magic for their jobs. A cook learns magic to heat food, beat eggs, or whatever it is most beneficial to them. One could theoretically learn magic specifically designed to 'create food', too. My main character at one point learned magic to speak telepathically, because he is a mute (he loses his magic when he becomes Royal Father). But a lot of people just don't learn magic, either out of lack of a faerie or simply because they don't see the point. It is a part of the world, it is integral to how many things run, but at the same time, day to day life is often only impacted minimally by the use of magic. It is useful, but their civilization would not be dramatically different if magic only existed in the background (save for one key historical event).


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## Telcontar (Mar 24, 2011)

Hmmm. You know, that's actually not a bad question. In my current work, there is no magic. But in my last completed one, this is something that isn't easy to answer - I've never really asked myself the question, to be honest.

I suppose magic in that book is a shortcut for the 'unfairness' of imbalance in relations. Magic-users in that world are naturally longer-lived and obviously more powerful than their mundane brethren. The whole world takes it in stride because it's the way things have been forever. Of course, the same imbalance can be found when you weight some other magical beings against human magic-users (weighing these other magical beings against NORMAL humans is just useless). Finally, one wizard wonder why some creatures were given such ridiculous power and others weren't, basically just reflecting on the unfairness of the universe. Magic often drives that imbalance.


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## Mdnight Falling (Mar 24, 2011)

ooOooo nice question Greybeard! The role of magic in my novels... It's nothing more then another fighting style. There's no "cost" cause it's magic the characters have had since they were embryos x.x Not everyone can use it, those that can't have other ways to fight. It's typically only supposed to be used in life and death situations to make the duels more even, though in full out war they're legal.


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## Ravana (Mar 25, 2011)

Greybeard said:


> Have you defined how magic works in your fictional world?  Is it something forbidden and feared?  Or is it a part of daily life?



While the extent to which I make it a part of daily life varies from story to story, I never make it "forbidden and feared"–for the simple reason that I nearly always hate stories of that sort. (That, plus it's a dreadful clichÃ©.) The extent to which I define it varies as well… though in most cases, it isn't defined within the story at all, due to space considerations. I prefer to know _for myself_ how it works in my settings: as I've mentioned elsewhere, it gives me a much stronger sense of control over its use, of what it can be expected to be able to do and not do. The details are unlikely to be confided to my readers, however, unless there is a compelling reason to do so. 

As you can probably guess, I therefore find a "well-defined" system to be more satisfying from an auctorial standpoint. From the viewpoint of the reader, it probably varies widely with individual predilection.


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## Dr.Dorkness (Apr 10, 2011)

I believe magic is all around us. Take a look at various musical plays. Or Various written texts made by illustrious writers. Now i take those kinds of magics that I believe are already in the world and take them and exagerate them. Dwarven magic for example is rune magic (aka. magic of the written word). For example they write the runes on a piece of paper, fold it up and give it to someone else. this person will have incredible strength for as long as he is in posession of this piece of paper, or burn to death, depending on the rune or combination of runes.

Often music inspires people. So it does in my stories. But have you everheard of bards strikeing up a particular tune and shooting an fireball from his/her lute? this kind of magic is of course only accesable for master bard. since one needs to play a certain tune and state of mind.

Shamanism/divine magic. Or as I Like to call it "Believe and it is", this magic is the magic of the mind so to say. These powers come from the self persuasion. most of the time helped by meditation or some deity or the believe that a leaf can heal a wound. Everything can be as long as you can persuade yourself.

Now this brings me to the next form of magic. Magic from items. Most of the time magic items are created by one of the above magics. rune magic being the most common. But perhaps a legedary bard has played so many "Spells" that his/her instrument has become an magic item.

There are also some mysterious natural magics in my world. For example a culture of people give blood to a certain tree. then the tree chooses one of these people and gives them seeds. the people of this culture then keep al but one of the seeds. and the one they plant near the sea. the seed then grows, and becomes a ship. a living ship. the person who was chosen becomes the captain of this ship and will have a bond with it due to his/her blood sacrifice. in exchange for the ship this person will bring the seeds to distant lands so that the tree will have "offspring".

These are the magics in my world. Perhaps I will add some more in the future.


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## Zahantian (Apr 19, 2011)

In my world, magic is quite a central part to the story. I think that it's one of those things that most of us love as children and can't resist as we get older- it's wondrous and dramatic (and who doesn't love a little drama).


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## myrddin173 (Apr 20, 2011)

In my world there are seven tribes with their own distinct magic, named for the attributes of the magic and for how it manifests.  
Dwarves-Stone, ability to remain the same
Elves-Wood,  ability to change
Northern Dragons-Darkness, ability to conceal
Southern Dragons-Light, ability to reveal
Northern Humans-Water, ability to nourish/replenish
Southern Humans-Fire,  ability to consume/destroy

The magics come in pairs to balance themselves.  The seventh/dominant tribe's magic is focused on maintaining balance, it's the fulcrum in each of the pairs.

I have a series planned for this world, each of the books will focus on one of the magics and the title will reflect that (ie. _Enduring Stone_, _Revealing Light_, _Concealing Darkness_, _Consuming Fire_.)

Also everyone has the ability to learn magic to varying degrees of proficiency, its basically a trade like any other.  Magic is not feared because its a natural birthright everyone shares.

Originally the magical tribes coexisted with non-magic folk but a significant number of magical people were giving the tribes a bad reputation by using their magic to control/subjugate the non-magic folk and as a result the non-magic folk began to fear them.   Finally the "bad" tribes-people caused a great plague to occur so the Leader of the Seventh Tribe called the leaders of the other tribes to work a spell to seal the "bad" guys away.  By the very nature of the seventh tribe's magic it was necessary for the good guys to be removed from the world also.  So they manufactured a world to live in.  Basically they form a lock on the bad guys prison, which is a crucial plot point in the series.


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## The Realm Wanderer (Apr 20, 2011)

In my novel's world, magic users are quite uncommon but not a rarity. They are also not considered human though they look alike. The magic users are frustrated because their gifts only let them defend, not attack. The non magic users despise those who are because they have been forced to rely on them for protection against otherworldly beasts.
The novel's protagonist is the first born with the ability to use his magic for offence, making him extremely important in the war against the beasts.
I believe that having magic considered inhumane, dangerous and something to be feared is better for both author and reader. Especially for more adult fantasy because the drama of it and the feelings of those who can use magic is a lot more interesting than an everyday, common occurence. For me a lot more fun writing it this way and I know I'd prefer to read something that was portrayed this way.


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## Fnord (Apr 24, 2011)

The Realm Wanderer said:


> In my novel's world, magic users are quite uncommon but not a rarity. They are also not considered human though they look alike. The magic users are frustrated because their gifts only let them defend, not attack. The non magic users despise those who are because they have been forced to rely on them for protection against otherworldly beasts.
> The novel's protagonist is the first born with the ability to use his magic for offence, making him extremely important in the war against the beasts.
> I believe that having magic considered inhumane, dangerous and something to be feared is better for both author and reader. Especially for more adult fantasy because the drama of it and the feelings of those who can use magic is a lot more interesting than an everyday, common occurence. For me a lot more fun writing it this way and I know I'd prefer to read something that was portrayed this way.


 
This is not unlike my approach either.  And there are reasons for it making the most sense really:

Magic allows you to do otherworldly things outside the regular boundaries of physical reality.  It can create something from nothing, it can heal wounds or bring the dead back to life, it control others without them even realizing it.  Unless magic is utterly a pedestrian pursuit that nearly anyone can practice to some extent (and thus protect themselves from others with it), it's hard to reconcile the fact that people would view others with such abilities with suspicion if not outright fear.  

And if magic is exceptionally common, then there completely different sets of incentives in the world that people would respond to.  My background is in economics and my first thoughts were always "how would introducing this element change the decisions of people that existed in such a world?"  If magic is common, then scarcity becomes less common.  A high-magic world will thus have much greater abundance in all things such as food, water, and other resources as well as protections against injury, disease, and even death itself.  This would most certainly affect the ways people behave; there would be much greater moral hazard, for example, as risks are greatly reduced for those who practice magic, let alone magic being widely available.  Artisans would seem woefully outdated when magic effectively recreates effects that our modern world of machinery and technology affords us.  A highly magical world would indeed be a fantastic place; people would want for little and leisure would be greatly maximized.  While that sounds like a great world to live in, for me it doesn't create as many elements of conflict which are key to a good story.  

Now all of that goes out the door if magic has more serious constraints (or costs, as us economics geeks think of them), which means that magic itself has to be scarce or limited in some way.  And as with any scarce or limited resource (especially one as powerful as magic), the people with access to it will be at odds with people who do not. 

As I'm starting to brainstorm on how to create a "magic system", I've been keeping this in mind.  I experimented with a lot of different systems over the years as I refined the table-top RPG world I had created and recreated.   One thing I tried was simply requiring the use of some living force to be able to work magic, which meant the magic-user had to draw life out of himself (or the more nefarious magicians drew it out of others) which entails an enormous cost (such as aging oneself prematurely) if one became too flippant about its use.  Another system I tried was requiring access to some sort of magical substance in order to properly be used, which means magic is restricted by the scarcity of an actual element, much like other things in the physical world are and control over the sources of that element was central to the conflict (like oil is today, for instance).  And, of course, there is the old standby of requiring pacts with otherworldly beings for access to such things--or at the very least being a "shortcut" around the other constraints.  I still haven't figured out a good way to go about it that doesn't seem overdone or "forced" (like the spellbook memorization constraint that was such a clumsy part of old D&D systems).


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## The Realm Wanderer (Apr 24, 2011)

Well said Fnord. If i'd had the patience, that is pretty much how I'd have said it


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## Fnord (Apr 24, 2011)

If I'm good at anything, it's being ridiculously wordy.


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## The Realm Wanderer (Apr 24, 2011)

Indeed, it would appear so


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## Amanita (Apr 24, 2011)

Interesting post indeed, Fnord. 
Trying to "think yourself" into the opinions held by the people in your world is very important during world-building. In my own world, everyone's child or younger sibling or cousin might get elemental magic and need help from the trained ones, therefore most cultures tolerate or respect it. There's one nation where many people would kill their own child in this case, however.

I'm not a great fan of the approach where magic costs lifetime, body parts or whatever even though it seems quite popular. At least, I've seen it in many forums and have read at least one book using this. I don't really know why I dislike this concept myself, maybe just because I don't want the characters I read or write about to have such strict restrictions placed upon themselves. 

I like to explore themes of free will and prejudice, that's why everyone can do good or evil with any element but people distrust the users of some of them. Magicians can be driven insane by their gifts if they aren't careful but there's no action that necessarily triggers this. 
The formula "do X and you will fall to the dark side" doesn't apply in my stories. Magcially, there is no difference between killing bacteria or people for example, the difference that it does make lies in the person. Sometimes there isn't any though and every being thought of as "vermin" is treated with the same contempt. Therefore insulting someone as such is a very severe issue in my world. 

My magic isn't limited by it's cost but by the things it can do. It wouldn't be able to lead the fantasy world's inhabitants to more prosperity than our technology does, even for reaching a similar level they need plenty of "ordinary" technology as well. 
I like the idea with the special substance needed for magic, though. If done well this could lead to interesting stories with not blatantly-obvious links to real world problems. 

Real "high magic"-worlds where magic replaces technology and has led to a society more advanced than ours in some aspects and less so in others can be very interesting as well though. I haven't stumbled over anything like that yet, however, people cling to their "classical" medieval worlds too strongly. Harry Potter went into this direction but because it was set in our own world, it doesn't really count for me. 
I don't think high magic does have to keep conflicts out of a world or make them less threatening. High technology definitly didn't. 
In Harry Potter, to return to this example, most ordinay injuries such as broken bones can be healed with magic extremely easily but this doesn't apply to many magical means of injury. JKR didn't go very deeply into the consequences of this and it hasn't always been consistant. 
I tried to think this through during my Harry Potter-mania and wondered if this would lead Muggleborns and Purebloods to react differently to different means of torture. A Muggleborn would be more threatend by beatings, breaking bones and so on because they've been taught to fear such injuries most, while the pureblood would fear the Cruciatus curse which causes no visible damage more. While ordinary injuries can be healed with a simple spell, the Cruciatus curse may cause a permanent comatose state and there's no cure.
Yes, that's the kind of thing I've spend my time on while reading Harry Potter, don't ask.  
I'd still like to have my own high-magic world, but up to now all my attempts have failed in the beginning state. But this might be because I just can't let go of my chemical elemental magical world and high magic just wouldn't fit there at all.


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## Fnord (Apr 24, 2011)

I suppose my main point is that of scarcity and cost.  And that's very much because I spent so much time in academia and the real world researching and thinking about how macro-level changes in resources affect "aggregate" behavior.  Without some limitation on extra-physical forces, it's hard for me to suspend my disbelief in how such a system would not have completely different outcomes in how people interact and behave.  If I can "magic up" food, I certainly wouldn't bother pursuing a career in agriculture because it would seem far more cost-effective to spend all my time learning the intricacies of magic so that I could create whatever I wanted.  If I could magically heal people, I certainly wouldn't expend personal time and resources learning medicine.  In a world where there is no restriction, everyone would essentially pursue (and hone and perfect) magic as opposed to more pedestrian pursuits.  Essentially everyone would be a magician in a post-scarcity world!

Having an "elemental" system of magic is a natural roadblock to this, obviously--especially if the element is consumed when used for magic.  This introduces the scarcity and cost required to do fantastic things and with scarcity comes conflict (hence why in our current world of technology we still have plenty of conflict).  I think that's why we all think so deeply about "magic systems" in the first place because it's kind of an ingrained notion even if it's not a conscious one.


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## Ophiucha (Apr 24, 2011)

Fnord said:


> Essentially everyone would be a magician in a post-scarcity world!


 
Sounds _awesome_ to me. I'd like to see how a world of all magicians works.


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## Fnord (Apr 24, 2011)

Ophiucha said:


> Sounds _awesome_ to me. I'd like to see how a world of all magicians works.


 
It's definitely a very alien concept when you think about it, and in the hands of the right writer could have a lot of interesting possibilities.  That might be a little beyond my ken, however.  But if anyone else wants to take a crack at it, be my guest!


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## The Realm Wanderer (Apr 24, 2011)

I don't think that idea could work. A world composed entirely of magicians is just a tad too farfetched...even for fantasy. You'd have to write some major barriers into the magic system or the world simply could not survive. They'd tear each other apart in lust of more power. I reckon if someone managaed to complete a novel like this, it would flop. But hey, that's just me.


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## Fnord (Apr 24, 2011)

The Realm Wanderer said:


> I don't think that idea could work. A world composed entirely of magicians is just a tad too farfetched...even for fantasy. You'd have to write some major barriers into the magic system or the world simply could not survive. They'd tear each other apart in lust of more power. I reckon if someone managaed to complete a novel like this, it would flop. But hey, that's just me.


 
Yeah, it would be certainly *difficult* to conceptualize, let alone write.  But there are some elements in literature (usually more of the science fiction variety I think) that had societies where all the members had certain powers.  After all, to pretty much every other type of creature on our planet, the ability to use tools is pretty exceptional.  The introduction of opposable thumbs gave us a huge advantage over all the other creatures of the planet (and beating the other apes to the punch).  Imagine a world where us plain old humans were beaten to the metaphysical punch by some other type of being.  

I would imagine a post-scarcity world would spend a great deal of its time trying to push the boundaries of their physical constraints more than anything.  When you stop having to worry about procuring food, shelter, material goods, or even energy sources, what would creatures pursue?  I imagine, for us, we'd definitely push outward into space and exploration, which is why this concept is probably closer to the domain of sci-fi than fantasy, though it would certainly contain elements of both.  And regardless of the availability of your every want, time is still a (relatively) scarce resource.  

There are plenty of approaches that could be pushed, but it'd definitely require a certain conceptual and literary finesse.


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## Amanita (Apr 25, 2011)

> I suppose my main point is that of scarcity and cost.


Ah, have you been doing something economics-related? You’re definitely right that there’s no reason to do things any other way if they can easily be done with magic. 

Most of the problems mainly apply to forms of magic that actually work with a swish of a wand or saying one word. With such concepts it’s really hard to do anything interesting if too many people have it. (I’m not even sure if anything interesting can be done with one person having it.)
But why should healing magic for example be so much easier to do than conventional medicine? I’ve stumbled over concepts for example, where healers have to take the patient’s pain upon themselves if they want to ease it. Not necessarily easier than giving an injection. Often magic is a substitute for the tools usually used to complete a task.

I’ve tried to come up with magic that has its place within our scientific rules but I’ve always stood before dead ends at some point. 
Taking the “life force”-example. What is life force supposed to be looked at in a scientific way. And what does the magic do? Make the cells age more quickly? Do the chemical reactions happening there fuel the magic. But why can’t something similar be achieved by some other means?
Or the “magic as energy” concepts. If magic is energy it has to come  from somewhere. It has to have a source. But how did the magical energy get into the source? Where did it come from? Energy never just turns up out of nowhere. 
In the end my conclusion has always been that magic, at least the magic used in fantasy stories can’t reasonable exist within the scientific laws or it would do so.
That’s why I’ve finally ended up with magic as third concept besides matter and energy following its own laws. 



> You'd have to write some major barriers into the magic system or the world simply could not survive.


Yes, certainly. But I think you always have to do this, if you don’t want to have god-like characters who can do everything with their will alone. This would make it really difficult to have a story. 



> They'd tear each other apart in lust of more power.


Oh, not necessarily. In my world, everyone having elemental powers wouldn’t make that much of a difference in this aspect. Those likely to tear each other apart for lust of power already tend to get magic anyway.


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## The Realm Wanderer (Apr 25, 2011)

Well, I stick with what I wrote. I don't think this idea could be done, or at least, done well.
The world would be fun and interesting if designed to be a bedtime story to tell todlers or kids, but as a serious and worthy fantasy novel, it just couldn't work. And I still think the inhabitants of said world would tear each other apart.
I know if I were born into this world, I would very likely do some nasty deed or other to gain more promise in my magical abilities...and don't try and deny it saying you would not!


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## Fnord (Apr 25, 2011)

Amanita said:


> Ah, have you been doing something economics-related?



Haha, my whole life is economics-related.  It's my field! 

And so far as fantasy writing is concerned, it can be a boon and a curse.  Since economists use elaborate theoretical econometric models to try and understand and find patterns in market behavior, it's very easy for me to envision complex trade systems, various market, political, and social behaviors that result from particular forces, and lots of other systems in a "controlled" environment (since I'm _writing_ the environment). But, at the same time, it's *very* easy for my mind to step outside the fantasy environment and try to to be too analytical about how things like magic affect how a society would respond to those elements.    



> Most of the problems mainly apply to forms of magic that actually work with a swish of a wand or saying one word. With such concepts it’s really hard to do anything interesting if too many people have it. (I’m not even sure if anything interesting can be done with one person having it.)
> But why should healing magic for example be so much easier to do than conventional medicine? I’ve stumbled over concepts for example, where healers have to take the patient’s pain upon themselves if they want to ease it. Not necessarily easier than giving an injection. Often magic is a substitute for the tools usually used to complete a task.



And that would definitely fall under a "cost".  Our behaviors, in general and when rational, tend to follow the path of least resistance.  If it's easier to develop medicine than to heal someone magically, we'll tend toward the easier of those paths.  But one could also see the potential conflicts that would arise too in such a world.  For example, even today we have illnesses like cancer that *still* can't be systematically cured.  The path of least resistance in this case might still be the use of magic to cure this particular ailment, and if the healer has to take the cancer themselves, it's pretty easy to envision exceptionally self-sacrificial healers doing so if it was to save someone they very much cared about.  Or, in a more sinister situation, a desperate or unscrupulous person using force to make a healer cure the ailment.  Either way, an element of cost (and thus conflict) is introduced.  But without such a limitation, the mundane quickly becomes even more mundane and even woefully tedious.  



> I’ve tried to come up with magic that has its place within our scientific rules but I’ve always stood before dead ends at some point.
> Taking the “life force”-example. What is life force supposed to be looked at in a scientific way. And what does the magic do? Make the cells age more quickly? Do the chemical reactions happening there fuel the magic. But why can’t something similar be achieved by some other means?
> Or the “magic as energy” concepts. If magic is energy it has to come  from somewhere. It has to have a source. But how did the magical energy get into the source? Where did it come from? Energy never just turns up out of nowhere.
> In the end my conclusion has always been that magic, at least the magic used in fantasy stories can’t reasonable exist within the scientific laws or it would do so.
> That’s why I’ve finally ended up with magic as third concept besides matter and energy following its own laws.



Yeah, that's definitely an ambitious undertaking and it would probably make *my* head explode, so I applaud the effort to reconcile magical forces with physical ones.  And the First Law of Thermodynamics is a good thing to keep in mind; otherwise you start having to rewrite the laws of physics to make it "work". Of course, magical force could simply be wedged in there with the four forces we do understand (gravity, electromagnetic force, weak nuclear force, and strong nuclear force) or be offshoots, depending on how deep you want to delve.  



> And I still think the inhabitants of said world would tear each other apart.



Maybe I'm less cynical, but I don't think this would necessarily be the case. If you look at how "power" is measured now (status and wealth), while there are some standout members of society both historical and modern that would follow this idea of corruption and power, the vast majority of actors in our system with wealth or prestige aren't at the throats of others.  And if everyone has access to magical power, than you have an interesting social equalizer anyway since in a high-magic world "wealth" is not likely to be measured in purely material terms.  It could quite possibly be the ultimate egalitarian society.  Unless people can somehow limit the power of others--and do it on a large scale--it would be difficult for power hierarchies to really gain a foothold in such a society.  Again, I agree this would be a very difficult concept to work with in a fictional story and keep it interesting, but I don't necessarily think magic--especially in total abundance--would make people even more violent toward one another.  After all, nearly every major war or conflict in history was in large part over access to economic resources (religion, to me, has always seemed to just have been a catalyst toward this end).  If magic (and thus resources themselves) are abundant and people are truly equal in this regard, it seems difficult that one person or a handful of them could easily gain influence over others.


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## Ophiucha (Apr 25, 2011)

The Realm Wanderer said:


> I don't think that idea could work. A world composed entirely of magicians is just a tad too farfetched...even for fantasy. You'd have to write some major barriers into the magic system or the world simply could not survive. They'd tear each other apart in lust of more power. I reckon if someone managaed to complete a novel like this, it would flop. But hey, that's just me.


 
I don't think that is the case, simply because everyone would be working with or against one another, inherently. It would put us on the same grounds as magic users, in many ways. A world where every man has magic is not unlike ours, where every man has muscle and mind, and can work his fields or else kill a man for his crop. If _everyone_ has magic, and magic is nigh limitless, we would simply balance one another out. For every man who destroys the town in a blaze of fire, another would be there to rebuild the homes and hose down the flames. A world where everyone is magical removes that element of power near entirely. It is perhaps entirely more grandiose than man's simple abilities to cut and hoe and dig, but if it is just as accessible, it wouldn't be held in such high regard. Why would people fight one another for power if magic is so accessible? Men would fight, of course. They'd fight over the origin of magic, they'd fight over land, they'd fight over everything. But they would fight in our world, as well.

Add in a few very light limitations - say you could only learn to grow crops or heal wounds - the world would, most likely, develop in a way not dissimilar from ours. You trade an acre of corn to treat a stab wound, or whatever.


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## Fnord (Apr 25, 2011)

Ophiucha said:


> Add in a few very light limitations - say you could only learn to grow crops or heal wounds - the world would, most likely, develop in a way not dissimilar from ours. You trade an acre of corn to treat a stab wound, or whatever.


 
Ooooo, I like this.  Specialization and trade.  A material economy would be replaced with a magical one!


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## Derin (May 17, 2011)

The Realm Wanderer said:


> Well, I stick with what I wrote. I don't think this idea could be done, or at least, done well.
> The world would be fun and interesting if designed to be a bedtime story to tell todlers or kids, but as a serious and worthy fantasy novel, it just couldn't work. And I still think the inhabitants of said world would tear each other apart.
> I know if I were born into this world, I would very likely do some nasty deed or other to gain more promise in my magical abilities...and don't try and deny it saying you would not!


 
Why?

Isn't that like saying that in this world, people are always tearing each other apart for physical dominance? There's no reason that universally present magical ability should create any more problems than universally present intelligence, or ability to physically manipulate objects.

Of course, the rules behind how the magic works would have to be very well thought out beforehand to make this work, because they'd affect everything.



Fnord said:


> And that would definitely fall under a "cost".  Our behaviors, in general and when rational, tend to follow the path of least resistance.  If it's easier to develop medicine than to heal someone magically, we'll tend toward the easier of those paths.  But one could also see the potential conflicts that would arise too in such a world.  For example, even today we have illnesses like cancer that *still* can't be systematically cured.  The path of least resistance in this case might still be the use of magic to cure this particular ailment, and if the healer has to take the cancer themselves, it's pretty easy to envision exceptionally self-sacrificial healers doing so if it was to save someone they very much cared about.  Or, in a more sinister situation, a desperate or unscrupulous person using force to make a healer cure the ailment.  Either way, an element of cost (and thus conflict) is introduced.  But without such a limitation, the mundane quickly becomes even more mundane and even woefully tedious.


 
I like to include a high cancer risk as one of the effects of magical healing. You get healed, there's a slight chance that some of your cells might... just not stop healing. 



My current work doesn't have magic usable by humans. A couple of the races do have magic (dragon shapeshifters, for example), and it's an inherent characteristic of their species. There are a lot of humans who think they have magic, though; mystics treat wounds with "magical" herbs and rituals, and people might carry supposed protective charms.


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## Chase Simba (May 17, 2011)

The magic in my world is known of, but very few people can actually use it.  Some people have inherent gifts, like an accelerated growth rate, extremely fast reflexes, enhanced senses and minor telepathy, but this magic is generally minor and unfocused, leading to painful lives for some.  Those with magic, whether inherent or otherwise, can usually be trained to some degree if a trained mage is found, but there are hundreds of potential mages with too little power to attract a teacher, but enough that they are worth teaching.  The main character of my series is an anomaly. He has a huge potential for magic, and an inherent gift that's powerful enough to act as a deus ex machina, but for some reason both of these have been blocked off.  This will become important during the book/s. (<That was intentional.  I don't know whether I'll write one or more at the moment.  I've just worked on the world so far.)
So basically, magic is there, and it can be useful for normal people, but it is very rare.


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## SeverinR (May 31, 2011)

Magic is common place.  
Mages, clerics & psionists are a minority individually, but magic using people are still common.

Magic is neccesarily limited or the world would be ruled by a powerful mage.

Mage magic requires intense study, thus humans are less likely to be mages.  Longer lived beings are more likely.

Religious magic-requires devotion to ones god, and advancement in this magic requires satisfying the Gods requirements and sacrifices.(good sacrifices and bad depending on the god in question)

Psi magic- born with the gift, lower inteligent humanoids are less likely to have the gift.  Mental magic is quickest of all magic.
Mental healing is the weakest for humanoids and strongest in Dragons and demons that Psi-heal.  relating to their psi energy stores.

Apprenticeship is possible with all forms of magic, and most have schools.


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## Hans (Jun 2, 2011)

Greybeard said:


> Have you defined how magic works in your fictional world?  Is it something forbidden and feared?  Or is it a part of daily life?


When I create a magic system most often the first thing is how to limit it. I normally give the everyday people a very good reason not to use magic. Which also limits the suitability of magic for economic purposes.

Currently I have two worlds I work on.
The first one was destroyed by magic. Magic is a natural power. I have not yet invented some formulas on the exact way to transform magic power into other powers. But I have alternate thermodynamic laws. So there are natural magic effects which tend to be either small (floating pebbles) or devastating. Most people are afraid of magic because they know magic mainly from the battlefields and nearly everyone has lost loved ones to the effects of magic.
Magic is not forbidden. The people are more concerned with surviving the aftermath of the big war than with forbidding natural powers. There would be no organization to enforce such laws anyway.

The second world I tried to keep pretty low magic. Within the limits of my creativity. Somehow I always seem to converge towards magic. One of the basic rules of the world concept is: Magic is either dangerous or inefficient.
A Shaman could banish the fire ghosts from a burning house. That would result in a little less water needed for extinguishing the fire. Probably less water than he could carry while doing the banishment.
Ir a daemonologist could summon an ice daemon. Sacrificing all inhabitants of the house in the process and then some. With a good chance that during the next winter no one in that area would be able to ignite any fire during the next winter.
There is some trade with magic items. Most people just want to be sure that the rituals necessary to create these have been done far away.


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## BeigePalladin (Jun 2, 2011)

The Realm Wanderer said:


> Well, I stick with what I wrote. I don't think this idea could be done, or at least, done well.
> The world would be fun and interesting if designed to be a bedtime story to tell todlers or kids, but as a serious and worthy fantasy novel, it just couldn't work. And I still think the inhabitants of said world would tear each other apart.
> I know if I were born into this world, I would very likely do some nasty deed or other to gain more promise in my magical abilities...and don't try and deny it saying you would not!



I don't see why they'd tear each other apart any more than they people do nowadays. Exampligratas, America. Every citizen has the right to bear arms, is there there any civilisation? the answer there, is yes. Beucase it's not a heady, unique advantage you have, and the people who come to stop you have bigger ones. the arms race would be at the same level, because (if magic was purely millitary) it'd be the same as a gun. with a little added convinience

and no, I doubt I'd do some 'nasty' deed to improve my magical abilites. I'd practice, but I'd feel a fool sacrficing someone whislt wearing a bathrobe and a traffic cone


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## Helbrecht (Jun 2, 2011)

In one of the setting's I'm working on (the more "traditional" medieval-esque of the two, actually), magic doesn't exist, or at least isn't in mortal hands.

In the other, an urban fantasy/steampunky thing set in a _very_ alternate-history Victorian London, the same could be said, but in a different sense. Magic certainly _does_ exist, but the official line is that it doesn't. The weird psuedo-vampires and other supernatural creatures that are running the country are more than capable of using it, but they use it in innate and subtle ways that are passed off as works of either high art or science. Most notably, magic is used in harmony with technology, but given that the only people who actually know how this tech works are the upper classes (i.e. the magical folk), nobody knows about this. Discovery of magic's usage in technology and attempts to put magic into the hands of mortals are going to be plot threads when I finally get around to writing the book.


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## AParker (Jun 2, 2011)

I used to write magic as a 'one more tool,' type thing, but lately I'm leaning more towards the sort of inherently magical world- somewhere between Grimm's fairy tales and Lovecraft if that makes any sense.


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## The Realm Wanderer (Jun 2, 2011)

BeigePalladin said:


> I don't see why they'd tear each other apart any more than they people do nowadays. Exampligratas, America. Every citizen has the right to bear arms, is there there any civilisation? the answer there, is yes. Beucase it's not a heady, unique advantage you have, and the people who come to stop you have bigger ones. the arms race would be at the same level, because (if magic was purely millitary) it'd be the same as a gun. with a little added convinience


Every citizen has the right to bear arms?? Firstly, you need a permit and secondly if you fire a shot off without cause, you're screwed. And not everyone does carry a weapon any way, but if EVERYONE had magic, even a petty criminal could cause a lot of damage. Even schoolyard fights would become a lot more dangerous. Your point would be valid if every single person in the world did walk around with shotguns and RPG's hoisted on the backs, but the simple fact is, they don't, and therefore your argument becomes a little silly. I really don't think it could be done to a good enough standard for me to sit through and read, not without it feeling unrealistic (even though it obviously isn't, but you get what I mean), because at the end of the day, people are cruel, and it would only take one act of cruelty in such a world to create possibly catastrophic pain.


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## Donny Bruso (Jun 2, 2011)

Off topic, but the 2nd Amendment (right to bear arms for those of you not from the US) actually has a pretty narrow focus. You can lose that right for even non-violent offenses, such as driving under the influence. Getting a permit even if you qualify is time consuming and expensive, and TRW is right; discharging a firearm within 500 feet of a residence without cause i.e. someone trying to kill you, screws you hardcore.

Fun fact, in the state of Massachusetts, you can't shoot someone who is trying to kill you if you have any means of escaping. For instance, if you shoot them on the third floor in a room that has a window and no other doors but the one they are blocking, you can be prosecuted for up to murder in the second degree. Not likely to happen, but it's possible. And in this bought-off corruption laden government, I wouldn't be surprised in the least.


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## sashamerideth (Jun 3, 2011)

In my world, magic exists but the ability to use it is a genetic trait that crops up when the mix is just right, but can be passed from parents to children. 

The magic follows loose rules of physics but I need to read more about quantum entanglement so I can better define my rules.  There are unexplained ways for converting matter to energy with just the mind. That also has a caloric cost much like physical exercise.


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## James Chandler (Jun 5, 2011)

The Realm Wanderer said:


> Well, I stick with what I wrote. I don't think this idea could be done, or at least, done well.
> The world would be fun and interesting if designed to be a bedtime story to tell todlers or kids, but as a serious and worthy fantasy novel, it just couldn't work. And I still think the inhabitants of said world would tear each other apart.
> I know if I were born into this world, I would very likely do some nasty deed or other to gain more promise in my magical abilities...and don't try and deny it saying you would not!


 
I completely disagree. The problem is not whether the world could survive, it is where do the societal tensions actually come from?  If something does not develop to deal with the potential dangers of universal and/or unlimited magic, the society would never evolve beyond the most primitive culture. So, that's where the world building would come in. Does lack of scarcity also mean universal equality in magical ability? Did society develop a method of preventing the most powerful mage from taking over the world. Is there good magic and bad magic, i.e. acceptable v. taboo? Is there a way to strip someone of his/her magical ability as a punishment for abusing magic? Does the magic make people immortal? No-scarcity and immortality is very different proposition from no-scarcity among mortals. In either case, how would the societal attitude be regarding marriage and/or procreation?


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## James Chandler (Jun 5, 2011)

The question I keep asking is, would a society with magic develop technologically? If so, to what level?


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## James Chandler (Jun 5, 2011)

> The magic follows loose rules of physics but I need to read more about quantum entanglement so I can better define my rules.



This might help you understand, but you would need to be very careful about over-explaining to the reader.



> There are unexplained ways for converting matter to energy with just the mind. That also has a caloric cost much like physical exercise.



Neat, these types of costs are really good for creating tension.


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## sashamerideth (Jun 5, 2011)

James Chandler said:
			
		

> This might help you understand, but you would need to be very careful about over-explaining to the reader.
> 
> Neat, these types of costs are really good for creating tension.



I don't plan on explaining my physics to the reader directly, just so I understand and to maintain internal consistency.


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## Derin (Jun 5, 2011)

James Chandler said:


> The question I keep asking is, would a society with magic develop technologically? If so, to what level?


 
Like this.

Tales of MU Â» Blog Archive Â» 1: Welcome to MU


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## BeigePalladin (Jun 5, 2011)

James Chandler said:


> The question I keep asking is, would a society with magic develop technologically? If so, to what level?


 
most likely. building things is human nature, and we're never satisfied with what we've built. the technology would probably be radically different though, since universal magic would perform the more mundane tasks (cutting/lifting etc), it'd probably be tools that amplify or concentrate magic, 

also, technology'd still be developed for precision and duplication, seeing as hwo ti's tireless and dosen't make mistakes when creating something - something even the most atute and dedicated person can hardly achieve.


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## razzazzika (Jun 14, 2011)

James Chandler said:


> The question I keep asking is, would a society with magic develop technologically? If so, to what level?





BeigePalladin said:


> most likely. building things is human nature, and we're never satisfied with what we've built. the technology would probably be radically different though, since universal magic would perform the more mundane tasks (cutting/lifting etc), it'd probably be tools that amplify or concentrate magic,
> 
> also, technology'd still be developed for precision and duplication, seeing as hwo ti's tireless and dosen't make mistakes when creating something - something even the most atute and dedicated person can hardly achieve.


1st post here, liked this topic. My magic is related to this conversation.

In my world magic is linked directly with emotion, and each emotion is linked to a different type of magic. The more raw emotionality you can pour into magic, the more powerful your magic becomes.

The magic in my world is hereditary, passed down from one generation to the next, but not everyone has it. The people who have it frown upon the people who don't and think of them as lesser citizen. They use their magic to build floating cities in the sky.
 As for the the technology aspect, everyday people needed methods to get around, whether through magic teleportation gates or with flying cars. Certain mages with the gifts to enchant those items would manufacture them for those without the ability to fly or teleport. An ice mage would enchant boxes for people to store food in. A fire mage would enchant another device for cooking food.

The groundlings, the non-magical people who live on the ground, became jealous of their magic and technology and began stealing the power sources of these devices. At first it was no big deal to the Highborns, but the groundlings figured out a way to harness their power. They developed a civilization MORE technologically advanced than the Highborns, the problem being that they required a constant source of their red stones for power, a source of power the Highborns were not willing to share...


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## BeigePalladin (Jun 14, 2011)

razzazzika said:


> The groundlings, the non-magical people who live on the ground, became jealous of their magic and technology and began stealing the power sources of these devices. At first it was no big deal to the Highborns, but the groundlings figured out a way to harness their power. They developed a civilization MORE technologically advanced than the Highborns, the problem being that they required a constant source of their red stones for power, a source of power the Highborns were not willing to share...



I like this. That's a great system, and the concept makes me laugh 

also, mages get to eat machine-gun, which is always funny


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## Raziel (Jun 15, 2011)

First off I gotta say, found the perfect place to do what I've been trying to do for some time now.  This is s breeding ground for my ideas to finally form.  And *to Ophiuca* BEAUTIFULLY crafted, I fell in love with your story in just that little bit.  

   Now, to the question at hand.  I am trying to get a handle on how 'fantasy' my story is really going to be.  My main character wakes up after an 8 year coma.  Needless to say the world has changed.  Yes, I want it to be Earth, per say, yet some cataclysmic changes have occurred. Land mass has changed a bit.  The sky is now a reddish tint and 'magic' is easier for 'normal' people to use.  I want technology to have a role in this too.  Like how everything is turning wireless in our real world today, within this 8 year hiatus, I feel the world should have almost tripled in it's progression (like what the last 30 years has been for technology for us, imagine it happening in 8 and not being there for it; how foreign things would seem).  Then there are the elements of genetic altering that may allow some to do things WAY quicker and easier than others who train and study (also maybe where the WAR comes into play; super soldiers and whatnot).  My character and the friends closest to him also allude to a special 'school' they attended before the world changed, a school that kind of taught them about the things that have manifested.  

I haven't really brought all the ideas and 'chunks' together yet. Work sucks sometimes.  But I feel I have some solid things to 'weave together.  Maybe I will have something for you guys to check out this weekend.  Ultimately though to answer the second question here, what satisfy's the author most is when the reader states that they understand the story being told regardless if it has magic or not. For the author that is the 'magic' of writing; coherently conveying the story.  

Any other thoughts are welcome.  Thanks.


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## JustSpiffy (Jun 18, 2011)

In my slowly developing world, magic isn't something humans have naturally, the elves and dwarfs have a form of magic, but mostly in enchantments.

The maker's first creations were a group of creatures I've yet to name, who the makers made in their own image, to have the ability to create, magic, but they were quickly corrupted by this magic and became demons. The makers had forbidden themselves from unmaking anything they created, for on the day that they did this, all would be unmade. So the makers banished them into the spirit world, a plane that exists along side the physical world, but that cannot interfere with it except in places the barrier between them grows weak.

Then the Makers made the elves and dwarfs, who had magic but only in a limited capacity, and finally they made man. The demons were jealous of how the Makers favored these mortal creatures, so they often tricked and manipulated them, tempting them with power or riches, but all they want is to cause pain and return to the physical world, for the spirit world is an empty and sad place.

Magic users have either made a deal with demons or are part demon, either way they're viewed as dangerous. Elves are all together too pure to be corrupted by them and dwarfs have too little potential for magic for them to be worth-while for the demons to pursue, but humans are the perfect balance of corrupt and adaptable.

I'm still developing this though.


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## BeigePalladin (Jun 18, 2011)

JustSpiffy said:


> . Elves are all together too pure to be corrupted by them and dwarfs have too little potential for magic for them to be worth-while for the demons to pursue, but humans are the perfect balance of corrupt and adaptable.



you might want to revise the reason for the elves, this is simply the most cliche thing in the world, and I can promise you that if they're written to act in that way, then they'll be the most boring race in existance.

dwarfs is a little meh. I guess it's hard for some people to imagine magic coming from someone half your height... sizists


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## JustSpiffy (Jun 18, 2011)

BeigePalladin said:


> you might want to revise the reason for the elves, this is simply the most cliche thing in the world, and I can promise you that if they're written to act in that way, then they'll be the most boring race in existance.
> 
> dwarfs is a little meh. I guess it's hard for some people to imagine magic coming from someone half your height... sizists


 
You're probably right, it's a very new idea and I haven't had allot of chance to think about it yet, seeing as I've been very busy recently. Thank you for the advice.


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## Hans (Jun 18, 2011)

BeigePalladin said:


> dwarfs is a little meh. I guess it's hard for some people to imagine magic coming from someone half your height... sizists


The problem is probably not the height. I think these people would not have a problem with magic gnomes or fairies even smaller.

Dwarfs are just clicheed in phantasy settings to be not magic. Or maybe item-only magic.

That changes when you go into mythology. There dwarfs do not even necessarily need to be small.


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## Derin (Jun 18, 2011)

Hans said:


> The problem is probably not the height. I think these people would not have a problem with magic gnomes or fairies even smaller.
> 
> Dwarfs are just clicheed in phantasy settings to be not magic. Or maybe item-only magic.
> 
> That changes when you go into mythology. There dwarfs do not even necessarily need to be small.



Dwarf magic does seem to be based on enchanting weapons and things a lot of the time, doesn't it? (My dwarves are seers, thus possessing more magic than the completely nonmagical humans.)


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## BeigePalladin (Jun 19, 2011)

> There dwarfs do not even necessarily need to be small.


 y'know, they kinda do, unless you plan to chance their name a little. Dwarf mening small


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## Derin (Jun 19, 2011)

BeigePalladin said:


> y'know, they kinda do, unless you plan to chance their name a little. Dwarf mening small



They could be ironically named giants.


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## BeigePalladin (Jun 19, 2011)

lol, the dwarven giants? sounds like a sports team


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## Hans (Jun 19, 2011)

BeigePalladin said:


> y'know, they kinda do, unless you plan to chance their name a little. Dwarf mening small


In modern English, yes. When you look at the progenitors of dwarfs like swargalbs (or was it swerg? something like that.) were mountain ghosts. As such sometimes really huge.

In the Edda Fafnir was a dwarf. Make a internet search for Fafnir. You won't find a small creature.


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## razzazzika (Jun 20, 2011)

BeigePalladin said:


> y'know, they kinda do, unless you plan to chance their name a little. Dwarf mening small


I saw a movie where non-small dwarves worked out very well. It was a comedic reimagining of Snow White and the 7 Dwarves, or in this case, Schneewittchen und die 7 Zwerge, because the movie was in german. It was simply called '7 Zwerge'.

Granted it was one of the comedic points of the movie, they would say "We're the 7 dwarves of such and such forest!" and whoever was standing next to them would be like, "I thought dwarves were shorter?"


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