# A lack of cursing



## Incanus (Mar 3, 2016)

My WIP novel is not YA, but neither is it strictly for adults.  It is for readers of what I might call classic action/adventure fantasy, first and foremost (with the emphasis more on the adventure side of things).  There are bits of what might be considered graphic violence.  There is something of a horror/supernatural element.  And there is a romantic element, though that is largely in the background.

However, so far, I haven’t had any of my characters use common curse words (you know the ones–the ‘s’ and ‘f’ words, and their nearly endless variations and permutations).  But they do occasionally use custom curse phrases, often based on their various gods or whatnot.  On the other hand, I believe I’ve had some of them say ‘damn’ a few times.

My questions, then, are:  would this lack be noticeable?  Are modern epic-type fantasies using these kinds of curse words more and more?  Or is it more of a “some do, some don’t” kind of thing, and I don’t need to worry about it one way or the other?


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## Russ (Mar 3, 2016)

A lack of modern curse words would not trouble me in the least as long as the book is not set in the modern world.


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## Demesnedenoir (Mar 3, 2016)

I would say curse words are completely optional. To me this goes for any genre. In general, it's all a matter of taste. I hear and say the words enough without reading them all over too, heh heh.


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## Svrtnsse (Mar 3, 2016)

Incanus said:


> My questions, then, are:  would this lack be noticeable?  Are modern epic-type fantasies using these kinds of curse words more and more?  Or is it more of a “some do, some don’t” kind of thing, and I don’t need to worry about it one way or the other?



To answer your question. You don't need to worry about it. Just use a language you're comfortable with and you will surely be fine.

...and to go on from there, I'll refer to my own works...

I use the F-word once in my first novel, and I'll probably remove it because it feels a bit out of place. That doesn't mean my characters don't curse or use expletives, they just use different ones. Instead of the F-words I use the word stupid to convey that kind of emphasis. 

Examples:


> Ali’ast sighed and threw his arms in the air. “I don’t stupid know. I didn’t think about it.”





> “Yes. I noticed.” She sighed. A good hit it had been too. “Now stand down. It’s my stupid sister. She gets to hit me if she wants to.”





> “Yes!” Toini slammed her hand into the table. “I'm the stupid commanding officer and half my squad is stupid dead! Okay? Can you stop interrupting me?”





> “I'm the stupid commander and I go fall down in a hole in the ground and my entire squad gets wiped out by hostiles and I get saved by a stupid elf like some bleeding storybook princess.”





> "That's not the stupid point! He could be the Cardinal of Knysvian for all I care. He's not coming in here waving his stupid gun around again. Is that clear?"



Taken out of context, and each on their own, these quotes would probably come across as a bit silly or lame. I'm gambling on that it will work in the context of the story though. The reader will be aware of how the word is used and they'll learn to accept it as a peculiarity of the setting. 

I don't know for sure that it will work like that, but I'm confident enough in it that I'll keep at it for the time being.


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## thedarknessrising (Mar 3, 2016)

For me, it doesn't particularly matter if a story includes cursing. Personally, I include it, because I'm targeting a slightly older audience. But if I were to pick up a fantasy novel and find that there's no swearing in it, I wouldn't even give it a second thought.


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## Velka (Mar 3, 2016)

I wouldn't notice a lack of swearing. I would notice the inclusion of swearing if it seemed out of place or there for shock value.


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## Svrtnsse (Mar 3, 2016)

On a completely unrelated note, I find it weirdly ironic that people are trying to keep curse words out of YA books, but feel it's okay to include it in books for older audiences. To me, using curses to emphasise a point feels a bit crude. 

There's no way people who read YA novels haven't come across curses before or will be shocked/damaged from reading them. On the contrary, they probably think it's cool or edgy and it'll be a selling point (kind of like Parental Advisory stickers on records with explicit lyrics).

I'm thinking older, more mature readers will be over that kind of thing though. They'll be able to enjoy and appreciate a more subtle and nuanced language, that doesn't rely on cursing to get its point across.

Ironically, this may not jive very well with what I wrote in my previous post a few minutes ago. But I guess I'll have to live with contradicting myself like that.


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## AndrewLowe (Mar 3, 2016)

I would say (so long as it's not set in the post-1950s on Earth), either use real curse words or don't use them at all.  I remember be immensely bothered by how many times Robert Jordan used phrases like "burn me", "burn you", and "motherburning burneater" in the Wheel of Time (I may have made up that last one).  It's all about moderation...  In my first manuscript probably 1 in ever 700 words was f***.  It seemed a bit excessive, but when I considered that my characters were 18-26 year olds in modern Europe, it almost seemed too light.

I would just urge you away from using custom phrases.  Still, that's just my 2 cents.  YA isn't really my thing, but if you are gearing towards that audience (which I know you aren't necessarily) than by all means censor the phrases.  But in all reality, 12 year old boys and girls swear more than Lev Grossman or George R.R. Martin.

On the other hand, here's an opposing opinion: Why There's No Profanity in My Books Ã¢â‚¬” Mark Henshaw

I personally respect his opinion for his own writing; that's how he sees people in the world.  I'm more of a cynic, so I'll continue on with my 'weak writing.'


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## T.Allen.Smith (Mar 3, 2016)

Incanus said:


> ...would this lack be noticeable?


Probably not. I don't think I've ever read any book and thought, "Why aren't these characters swearing?"




Incanus said:


> Are modern epic-type fantasies using these kinds of curse words more and more?  Or is it more of a “some do, some don’t” kind of thing, and I don’t need to worry about it one way or the other?


It's a matter of, "some do, some don't". If your Joe Abercrombie your characters cuss worse than drunken sailors. If your Pat Rothfuss, not so much. 

I'll pose some questions back to you. 

Do _YOU_ feel like your characters need to swear? 

Do _YOU_ notice a lack of cussing?

If you answered either of the above, "Yes", then swearing is probably needed. Go with your gut.


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## Geo (Mar 3, 2016)

When I think about the YA books (fantasy and otherwise) I have read recently, I can't even remember if the authors used or not curse words, I think that means that it is not noticeable, at least not for me.

What I do remember about two books in particular is that the author used non-curse words as curse words, with his characters getting angry and reacting badly to such words... for me it was a very effective way of making his world real, transmitting anger and other curse-related emotions, while keep it clean for marketing and other purposes.


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## Gryphos (Mar 3, 2016)

AndrewLowe said:


> On the other hand, here's an opposing opinion: Why There's No Profanity in My Books Ã¢â‚¬” Mark Henshaw



Wow, that guy can **** off back to Pleasantville.

Back to the point, the key thing is really just to write the language you're comfortable with. If you're not comfortable with cursing, you'll gain nothing from forcing it into your work. Would a lack of cursing be noticeable? If it's a secondary world, absolutely not.


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## thedarknessrising (Mar 3, 2016)

Gryphos said:


> Wow, that guy can **** off back to Pleasantville.
> 
> Back to the point, the key thing is really just to write the language you're comfortable with. If you're not comfortable with cursing, you'll gain nothing from forcing it into your work. Would a lack of cursing be noticeable? If it's a secondary world, absolutely not.



Man that article was kinda cringe worthy. He doesn't write profanity because he wasn't raised to talk that way? Well, neither was I! When I first started writing all the way back in middle school, I tried to keep my books squeaky clean. But then I realized it wasn't working, especially since I was trying to write James Bond-esque novels. 

I actually asked my dad if I would be allowed to incorporate swear words in my writing. You know what he told me? "I don't see why not. If you're trying to write a book, you should keep it as accurate as possible. People use those words all the time in real life. Just don't go too overboard with it, and I don't want to ever catch you using those words in real life."

Now, of course, fantasy worlds don't have to be as accurate as possible. We're allowed to do whatever we want. I choose to include swears because it makes characters a little more relatable. 

Mark Henshaw needs to get off his high horse.


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## Heliotrope (Mar 3, 2016)

A book that comes to mind for me is the Sword of truth series. There is some graphic stuff in there, even some borderline BDSM and bestiality and yet no swearing at all. That never bothered me at all when I read it and I never missed it. He sort of made up curse words that felt in place for the world, but never used common curses.


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## AndrewLowe (Mar 3, 2016)

I'm glad you guys saw the irony in that link XD


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## Chilari (Mar 3, 2016)

I'm of the view that if a line of dialogue feels like it should have swearing in, it should. People swear in real life all the time. I do. I don't see why my characters shouldn't.

I don't like using "Deity's Symbolic Weapon or Feature" as swear words where a simple four letter word - with just one syllable - effectively conveys the desired meaning while maintaining the flow. I find those kinds of swearing alternatives to be clunky and obtrusive.

I'm also generally not a fan of making up new words the reader has to learn for the sake of the book when there are existing words available. That's not just swearwords either, that's any word. The old "calling a rabbit a smerp" thing. Fine, if it's a concept for which there's no easy equivalent in English, by all means make up a word, ideally one that's easy to pronounce. But don't just create a bunch of words where smerp = rabbit and se'nday = week and bloop = damn.

If when I finish the book I feel I've overdone the swearing I can always go back and change a few words to less offensive alternatives, like drat or crud, and leave the real swear words where they have the most impact. But I'm not going to censor myself or edit myself as I go along.


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## Demesnedenoir (Mar 3, 2016)

I hate to say it but I mostly agree with the article, although I have no personal issue with profanity... and if my mom were still alive? heh heh. Yeah. I wouldn't get too blue at least. Is it weak writing? Maybe maybe not, that's a case by case basis, but I suspect it tends in that direction. Realistic dialogue? Maybe, sure, but is it useful? Profanity lacks punch when used over and over. This is a given. Highly selective use might give dialogue punch but only if used judiciously to make it stand out. If you want a point in a book for FU! to stand out, it would be best not to use F at all throughout the book.

Pure marketing, he is right. Almost nobody's gonna give a sh!! if you don't use profanity, while even some agents/publishers are going to be turned off immediately by a writing sample dripping with it. And does profanity make any writing better? Again I think he's right at least in most instances, particularly in profanity heavy works where any use loses all emphasis. It would be like knowing me and my mom... I said F? Meh, no biggie, if she said it? Look out, you know something just hit the fan hard, probably a bomb, not just sh!!, heh heh.

I've contemplated a character with a salty voice, and doing so in the midst of otherwise only mild profanity, would make that character stand out.


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## Incanus (Mar 3, 2016)

Thanks for all the responses.  It helps.

Basically, the responses were about what I would have expected.  And I largely agree.

For myself, I think, given the tone of my writings, the swear words would stick out a little--as in, not in a good way.  Come revision time, I can always add them in without too much trouble.

But I do have a reason for trying to figure this sort of thing out now:  I plan on writing at least a few books/series in the world I have.  I would like to establish as many stylistic precedents as I can at this point, even if this first novel never sees the light of day.

That said, the reasons for not using curse words in fiction given in that article are, in my view, pretty weak.


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## CrystalCHTriple (Mar 3, 2016)

I found that article annoying. Not cringe worthy or raged inducing, just annoying. Like... hella mad fails at trying to edify me.

If one's reason to refuse writing a particular way is because of the way they were raised, I will question their ability to write about things in opposition to the way they were raised or about people of different backgrounds, should they attempt to do so; and excessive profanity being a crutch is about as valid as an assertion that refusing to use profanity is a crutch to avoid diverse characterization and settings, which is to say not at all.

A setting that is discomforting for middle class families (more upper) will have _excessive_ profanity, and those who announce their disdain of it will stand out. That is not lazy. That provides — demands — an opportunity to provide another perspective, perhaps a challenging and/or informing one, like some privileged social worker/teacher/just plain anomaly who thinks cursing is a sign of a weak mind being made aware of the conditions of a foul mouthed individual who has not yet attempted suicide and/or is relatively stable and thus concludes they are anything but weak in mind, but I digress. 

Likewise, a foul mouthed parvenu or mercenary could provide insight into the lives of _proper_ people, pointing out the contradictions in their selective outrage and all other manner of false decorum they would otherwise not notice. 

The bit about politeness is... interesting. Depending on who you ask, society has become more civil, or too civil. I am a borderline misanthrope who finds it difficult to believe humans can truly value each other, so I am not sure if I am the right person to opine on their interpersonal dynamics, but I doubt consideration is indirectly proportional to the frequency of profane utterances.

To address the concern of this thread, a lack of cursing could be noticeable for various reasons. Some readers may just realize it, and some would look for it. It could also be noticeable if the setting is _gritty_ yet everyone speaks with consideration. It short, it depends.


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## Tom (Mar 3, 2016)

I think that if a situation calls for profanity, use it. It's becoming more acceptable in fiction anyways--which I am excited about. It's nice to finally have characters who are free to sound like people I would converse with on a daily basis. 

The first time I read a modern YA book ('modern' as in 'fresh off the freaking presses') I was shocked at the frequent occurrence of the word f**k. When I started reading YA back in the day, you would find nothing like that in any YA book. There might be some tame swear words, but they'd never drop the Big Ones. After I got over my culture shock, I started enjoying it. The characters sounded like _actual young adults._ They sounded more authentic, and because of that I related to them better than I would have if they'd sounded like they were in a PG movie. 

I was not raised to swear, yet here I am. In my opinion, trying to cut out profanity is an ineffective practice. Advocates of it claim it increases your vocabulary because you're not using the same couple words to express yourself, but that's a disingenuous argument. Would you use a synonym when there's another word which perfectly suits the effect you're trying for? Trying to replace swear words with substitutes is like that. It just doesn't have the same impact, the same significance. 

Plus it'd be really stupid to have all your hard-boiled mercenaries going around saying "gosh darn it" and "fudge".


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## Chessie (Mar 3, 2016)

I was totally raised to swear and do so on a regular basis which drives my husband nuts (he gets on my case about it all the time). However, there's hardly any swearing in my stories. Occasionally the s or a couple b words but maybe 1 or so a book. I rather keep curse words to a minimum out of respect for the readers. There are other ways of expressing a character's emotions without curse words and I rarely find the need to use them when I write. 

Okay, so I've admitted to speaking like a sailor and even I was jarred/annoyed by one urban fantasy book that had a buttload of swearing. I mean, they were piled on. I'll never read her work again for that among other reasons (graphic sex scenes that had no relation to the plot, etc). See, I don't want readers to come away from my stories with a bad taste for my language. Just my 2 cents.


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## AndrewLowe (Mar 3, 2016)

> I don't like using "Deity's Symbolic Weapon or Feature" as swear words where a simple four letter word - with just one syllable - effectively conveys the desired meaning while maintaining the flow. I find those kinds of swearing alternatives to be clunky and obtrusive.
> 
> I'm also generally not a fan of making up new words the reader has to learn for the sake of the book when there are existing words available. That's not just swearwords either, that's any word. The old "calling a rabbit a smerp" thing. Fine, if it's a concept for which there's no easy equivalent in English, by all means make up a word, ideally one that's easy to pronounce. But don't just create a bunch of words where smerp = rabbit and se'nday = week and bloop = damn.



This is very well put...  Like I said before either use curse words or don't use alternatives.


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## Demesnedenoir (Mar 3, 2016)

I won't even call them curse words, but clever "exclamations" that fit a certain culture in a fantasy world can be fun. The key word is clever.


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## Mythopoet (Mar 4, 2016)

Gryphos said:


> Wow, that guy can **** off back to Pleasantville.





thedarknessrising said:


> Mark Henshaw needs to get off his high horse.



Uh, the guy was clearly expressing his personal beliefs and opinions. You're not making yourself look better by swearing at and mocking him for it. 

I can relate to his point about not being raised to speak that way. I wasn't either. What that means is that for me at least, it's even hard to _think_ profanity or vulgarity. It just doesn't come naturally to me. So it doesn't come naturally to my stories or characters either. I don't see that as a problem, I see it as part of my voice. 

But I also think that there are 3 separate types of "swearing" and some of them bother me more than others. 

Cursing: cursing is exactly what it says it is. You are cursing someone. Actively wishing them ill. This includes many expressions using the word "damn". Saying "damn you" or "God damn it" is essentially wishing that some one or some thing be cast into hell. 

Profanity: this is using words or names for sacred things in a way that is disrespectful or diminishing to them, making the sacred into the "profane". Or any use of some type of serious thing deserving of respect used for simple emphasis or shock value. This includes "taking the Lord's name in vain" and certain usages of "hell". 

Vulgarity: using "impolite" or "dirty" words in your everyday speech or using a more "coarse" word for something rather than a more technical or "clean" word. Most usages of the "f word" and "s word" would fit in here. Especially when they have no real relevance to the subject the speaker is talking about. 

Now personally, I find more use in my writing for cursing than for profanity or vulgarity. Cursing has its place because it's an action with a meaning behind it. I use it when there is a reason to use it. Profanity requires a character who lacks respect for the sacred. In modern American society, nearly everyone is lacking in proper respect for the sacred (even religious people) or doesn't believe in the sacred at all, but at least in my fantasy worlds this is far, far less common. And I dislike casual profanity so I tend to only employ it with people who understand the implications of what they are saying and in situations where they do it for a purpose. It makes more sense that way in the worlds I develop. 

Vulgarity is the type of "swearing" that I intensely dislike. Peppering the f word throughout your conversation doesn't make you more realistic or relatable to me, it just makes me want to avoid you. And I usually feel that resorting to vulgarity for emphasis or shock value is the easy way out. So there will never be much, if any, vulgarity in my writing. I don't like to write about the sort of people who would employ it anyway.

Again, I don't see this as a lack, but as part of my voice and style. I certainly don't suggest that everyone should feel about it the same way I do, but I make no secret that the more profanity and vulgarity there is in your work the more likely I am to not read it. That's just my preference.


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## AndrewLowe (Mar 4, 2016)

Mythopoet said:


> Vulgarity is the type of "swearing" that I intensely dislike. Peppering the f word throughout your conversation doesn't make you more realistic or relatable to me, it just makes me want to avoid you. And I usually feel that resorting to vulgarity for emphasis or shock value is the easy way out. So there will never be much, if any, vulgarity in my writing. I don't like to write about the sort of people who would employ it anyway.



Honestly, you worded that far more eloquently than Mike Henshaw.  I think that Henshaw turned people off by saying that profanity makes your writing 'weak.'  As my WiP takes place in the modern world, I actually find _vulgarity_, by your definition, not only useful, but necessary for the sake of plausibility.  I try to avoid overusing f**k and c**t (unless in Britain), but that doesn't mean that I shy away from it either.

I'm not sure if it was in this thread, but I did mention that in a fantasy setting, you should either use _real_ curse words or none at all.  Curse words won't necessarily make a fantasy story more realistic, but I think that fake curse words will make it _less_ realistic.


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## Velka (Mar 4, 2016)

There are two instances I can think of where swearing was pulled off quite well:

Battlestar Galactica's "frak" - I know a lot of people said they don't like made up curses, and while I usually agree, for some reason this one worked really well. Perhaps because it is so similar to f*ck, or maybe because it made sense for that world and those characters.

I absolutely loved Firefly's cursing in Mandarin. Using Mandarin was a nice touch to help build the world it was set in and as far as character development goes I can't see Jayne or Mal not swearing.


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## Drakevarg (Mar 4, 2016)

Personally, I feel the worst thing you can do to profanity is call undue attention to it, in any direction. Swearing at every possible opportunity just makes you sound like a child who just learned a new word that was made-extra special by knowing their parents hated hearing it, and trying to self-censor sounds unbearably corny.

When it boils down to it, if you're going to swear just swear, and if you're not going to, don't. One of the most annoying aspects of the Star Wars EU (or "Legends" continuity as it's now called) was their tendency to use "blaster bolts" as an exclamation. Not only was it cheesy, it came off as incredibly unnatural because it didn't roll off the tongue smoothly enough to properly express frustration or surprise. Like if someone in our world cried out "shotgun shells!" after stubbing their toe. 

The one time I've seen this work is in the Foundation series by Asimov - one character had the quirk of regularly dropping the word 'unprintable' into his speech as a placeholder for an F-Bomb. He and people who spent a lot of time around him were the only people who ever did that so it came off as a character tic more than anything, but at the same time it was used smoothly enough that I occasionally wonder if he was actually saying that or if it was meant to be read as [unprintable] and he really was just such a foul-mouthed character that he swore like a sailor even in professional contexts and everyone was just too used to him to care anymore.

But I don't think anyone who watches child-appropriate media like Avatar or Disney movies and finds it weird when nobody swears or calls attention to their lack of swearing. Placeholder profanity - other than very rarely a successful character or cultural quirk - is a lot more noticeable than simply not swearing or indifferently letting it out. That's why there's so much humor to be had in adding censor bleeps randomly into innocuous dialogue. Because it calls attention to the supposed presence of unacceptable language.


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## evolution_rex (Mar 4, 2016)

I probably wouldn't even notice a lack of cursing while reading. What would be noticeable, though, is a lot of 'gosh darnit' and 'oh fudge', which would be distracting while reading.


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## Demesnedenoir (Mar 4, 2016)

evolution_rex said:


> I probably wouldn't even notice a lack of cursing while reading. What would be noticeable, though, is a lot of 'gosh darnit' and 'oh fudge', which would be distracting while reading.



And yet just as appropriate for a character to say as any profane word. I've been known to exclaim both of those as well as frickn frackn fudge-whacker as well as one of my favorites, higgly friggin piggly... its an ever useful classic. 

But fact is, profanity can distract some readers as much as or more than fake curses. 

I find this concept amusing... F U, translated into the native tongue of people in my world:

"Fornicate you, man!"

"Fornicate me? Are you soliciting intercourse?"

"Mother fornicate you, mother fornicator!"

"Dude... what? Are you offering your mother, or suggesting I've had intercourse with a mother... which I have, just not my mother... or yours... I don't think, but seriously, you've confused me, I'm out of here."


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## TheKillerBs (Mar 4, 2016)

I think it all depends on the context. For example, someone from early-middle 20th century America would sound just about right if they dropped a few "gosh darn-its" here and there, but it would sound absolutely jarring coming from a modern soldier. F***s and s***s would be more believable (and almost expected) there.


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## Demesnedenoir (Mar 4, 2016)

TheKillerBs said:


> I think it all depends on the context. For example, someone from early-middle 20th century America would sound just about right if they dropped a few "gosh darn-its" here and there, but it would sound absolutely jarring coming from a modern soldier. F***s and s***s would be more believable (and almost expected) there.



Again, totally depends, some very religious soldiers out there.


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## Brithel (Mar 7, 2016)

Just so you know swearing was more common than you thought, especially in the army. The reason we think otherwise is probably due to the lack of written swear words in books and newspapers, which wouldn't be allowed to include these words under obscenity laws. Here is an interesting /r/AskHistorians thread on the matter of swearing in the past.


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## Demesnedenoir (Mar 7, 2016)

Swearing has probably always been common, and what is considered vulgar over time will change. Social setting is also a big determiner. If I'm at my business, I speak one way, around my kids another, and dart or pool league with "the boys" a completely different and vulgar language shift takes place, LOL. or did, now with kids... darts and pool are pretty much wiped out, heh heh.In general, writing has been done as if in "polite society" rather than stuck in a foxhole, and marketing wise, it is just fine to stay there, particularly outside of character voice.

If you look at your fantasy world and the language you use as a "translation" of sorts... there are some things which would probably come off as insults cross culturally... call someone a S-eater in writing in pretty much any language and they're going to get the insult, F'r on the other hand, is a more complex translation, especially if you consider non-human cultures. 

I tend to keep to the vulgar and the blasphemous because they are semi-universal. In my world where religion is huge, beseeching a specific god to D someone would be about as bad as it gets (them are fightin' words!), whereas simply gods D you would  be more of a colloquial, hanging out with your buddies appropriate insult. To say Gods be D'd, would be a mighty insult in front of a priest. Vulgarities won't get you killed most oft, but the last line might if used at the wrong point and you didn't have the political might to stave off the church.


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## Incanus (Mar 7, 2016)

Interesting.  Thanks again to all.

It seems this, like just about everything else one decides upon in their writing, gets a variety of reactions and viewpoints, with some suggesting using 'known' curse words and some suggesting creatively inventing them, and some suggesting avoiding them altogether.

For now, I'll be leaving the common curse words out, but keeping an eye out for a creative substitute (such a thing would have to sound dead-on to me).  I'm trying to cultivate a more 'olden-time' feel (for lack of a better term), and most curse words sound modern to my ear (wrongly or rightly).  For me it is not a matter of weak writing, morals, relatability, or how I was brought up.  It is strictly a matter of tone and feel.


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## Svrtnsse (Mar 7, 2016)

Incanus said:


> It is strictly a matter of tone and feel.




...and isn't that how it ought to be?


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## evolution_rex (Mar 7, 2016)

Demesnedenoir said:


> And yet just as appropriate for a character to say as any profane word. I've been known to exclaim both of those as well as frickn frackn fudge-whacker as well as one of my favorites, higgly friggin piggly... its an ever useful classic.
> 
> But fact is, profanity can distract some readers as much as or more than fake curses.
> 
> ...


I think another guy in the thread mentioned if it was a character trait, then it's fine. And I'd agree with that. It's more so when everyone does it, because not everyone has the same vocabulary. An example would be in the terrible movie The Happening, which had an R rating but a random character says 'Cheese and Crackers' instead of 'Jesus Christ'. If the character was established to be religious or unwilling to curse, the line would have made sense. But it was an unimportant side character who had one line, and thus it became unintentionally funny and out of place.


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## AndrewLowe (Mar 7, 2016)

SOOOO...  I just did an actual word count on my last two manuscripts:

*The Artificer (140,000 words)...*
F**k = 1/450 words
S**t = 1/700 words
D**n = 1/200 words
B***h = 1/2000 words
C**t = 1/1200 words

*Working Title (20,000 words ATM)...*
F**k = 1/6,667 words
S**t = 1/800 words
D**n = 1/800 words
B***h = 1/20000 words
C**t = 0 so far


So obviously I am using a lot less vulgarity in my recent manuscript.  Especially a lot less "f**k."  You can see that all other words (except for b***h and c**t) have gone up proportionately.  I still am trying to avoid falsifying the amount that a character would swear.  Still, I knew that The Artificer was _extremely_ gratuitous (although in my eyes, realistic).  So, this time around, I've opted to use some new techniques:

1. I spend more time describing (and showing) characters, instead of letting them just babble.  I believe that dialogue is one of my strong points, but I can't let myself use it as a crutch either.  I mentioned this story on another thread somewhere, but when I started my current piece, I wrote a first chapter (apx. 2,600 words) which I thought was pretty good before reading back over it.  When I went back, I realized that while my dialogue was good, the pacing was _way_ too fast.  I went back and added a lot of extra material about the scenery and the thoughts of the character.  Now at 4,500 words, I believe that this is the largest editing impact I've ever had on a piece of writing (well, at least my own writing).

2. F**k is generally a very strong word to use.  I (and many people in my circles) say it frequently.  I don't really swear to excess, but it's probably comparable to double the rate of swearing in the Artificer.  I've noticed that among young peoples, this tends to be a quite common frequency (even among readers like us!).  I remember a close friend once asking me why I swear so much when I have "one of the largest vocabularies" of anyone they knew.  I couldn't really provide an answer, so for that reason I'm now trying to be more _intentional_ about where I give my "f**ks" (sorry, I couldn't help myself).  Still, I try to avoid using alternative swear words.  Instead I use 'less offensive' words in places where they might not generally be found:
"What the s**t?"
"Damn you!!"
"You bastard!"
"Piss off!"
"S**teater!"
"FornicatingWithMothers son of that s**tfaced respectable woman!!!!!!!!"​
3. I've made a new rule for every time I use f**k or c**t in my writing...  If I can't explain to myself why the word needs to be there, I'll use an alternative.  So far in the manuscript, I've used f**k three times.  The first time, I opened a chapter with a quite contemptible character (implied to be a date rapist) using the word in a derogatory way towards one of his employees.  The second time it is used, that employee is in a nihilistic drunken stupor.  The third time, that employee is pointing a gun at his employer (my writing is quite dark, I know...)  I have yet to find a use where c**t feels necessary, but I'm sure I'll get there.  Maybe I will once I start writing in some British characters, you bloody w*nking humbugger cousin of a c**t.

Anyways, I hope this could be helpful.  I know my last post was a bit abrupt, but I hope that this offers some explanation for how I put this all into practice


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## AndrewLowe (Mar 7, 2016)

Wow, that was a bloody longwinded freaking piece of post...  I need to catch my breath.


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## AndrewLowe (Mar 7, 2016)

Brithel said:


> Just so you know swearing was more common than you thought, especially in the army. The reason we think otherwise is probably due to the lack of written swear words in books and newspapers, which wouldn't be allowed to include these words under obscenity laws. Here is an interesting /r/AskHistorians thread on the matter of swearing in the past.



I just lost it at the "extreme prejudice" bit!


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## Demesnedenoir (Mar 8, 2016)

evolution_rex said:


> I think another guy in the thread mentioned if it was a character trait, then it's fine. And I'd agree with that. It's more so when everyone does it, because not everyone has the same vocabulary. An example would be in the terrible movie The Happening, which had an R rating but a random character says 'Cheese and Crackers' instead of 'Jesus Christ'. If the character was established to be religious or unwilling to curse, the line would have made sense. But it was an unimportant side character who had one line, and thus it became unintentionally funny and out of place.



You mean the Happening wasn't a comedy? Sheeeoot, coulda fooled me. A terrible comedy, but I'm not sure what the heck else it could be called... well, ok, plenty of derogatory terms, but as far as genre goes, yeah, comedy.


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## Miskatonic (Mar 9, 2016)

I'll take regular cursing over a writer's attempt to create an alternative. Usually they end up being pretty bad. It's not like people didn't curse in the distant past.


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## Russ (Mar 9, 2016)

When people suggest the reason they don't use cursing in their books is "I was not brought up that way." that strikes me as a very poor way to approach writing.

Personally I try not to curse at all.  I think it is bad form.  It took me about three years after leaving the army to break the habit and it was not easy.

But truth is I was also not brought up to stab someone, loose my temper, yell, cry, be jealous and a number of other behaviours that are very important to good fiction.

By saying my characters don't do X because "I wasn't brought up that way" does that mean we should apply that test to all of our characters' actions or even thoughts?

Seems to me using that approach would lead to some pretty dull fiction.


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## Svrtnsse (Mar 9, 2016)

Old prejudices are hard to break. 

When I grew up, I wasn't explicitly taught not to swear/curse because it's bad. Rather, the prevailing opinion around the house was that cursing is a sign of having a lesser vocabulary. This came with the implication that people with lesser vocabularies are people with lesser minds. It also carried the implication that we in our family we're better than that.

Logically, I know this isn't the case, but it's an old prejudice I was brought up with, and it's hard to shake.


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## Mythopoet (Mar 9, 2016)

Russ said:


> When people suggest the reason they don't use cursing in their books is "I was not brought up that way." that strikes me as a very poor way to approach writing.
> 
> Personally I try not to curse at all.  I think it is bad form.  It took me about three years after leaving the army to break the habit and it was not easy.
> 
> ...



Well, for me anyway I don't curse because it wasn't allowed in my household growing up and so I never developed a habit for it. I was surrounded by people for much of my life who didn't curse and even in public school the cursing never managed to rub off on me. My natural speech patterns just don't include cursing. At this point, it's part of who I am. I don't share my parents' conviction that all cursing is evil, but it takes a real rage for me to slip a curse word into my speech because it's just not part of my normal vocabulary. 

How you speak is in large part a matter of habit. As a young teenager I noticed, as is the custom, I said "like" way too much and in ways that were silly and repetitive. I made the conscious decision to strike superfluous "likes" from my vocabulary. It took some real effort, but after a period of policing my own speech I managed to break that habit. 

I think it's likely for many people who were "not brought up to curse" that they simply mean because they were never allowed to curse they never developed a habit for it.


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## CupofJoe (Mar 9, 2016)

Svrtnsse said:


> Taken out of context, and each on their own, these quotes would probably come across as a bit silly or lame. I'm gambling on that it will work in the context of the story though. The reader will be aware of how the word is used and they'll learn to accept it as a peculiarity of the setting.
> 
> I don't know for sure that it will work like that, but I'm confident enough in it that I'll keep at it for the time being.


The director Alex Cox when asked to make a TV friendly edit of his film Repo Man [great film BTW] dubbed all the M-F in to "Melon Farmer" and did it so badly/obviously with no attempt to cover up the real phrase [I think one take of "Melon Farmer" was used for every utterance] that Alex Cox has said that it is his preferred version.


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## Miskatonic (Mar 9, 2016)

Reminds me of the Cheech & Chong movies when they aired them on cable and came up with the most ridiculous fill-in dialogue to cover up what wouldn't be allowed on TV.


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## Vincent Lakes (Mar 19, 2016)

I find it silly to have otherwise good text littered by unnecessary curse words. It's just not very classy, and from what I've seen, most guides and recommendations go against it. I'm sure it's perfectly fine to use them if time, place and general atmosphere of the story promote it, but I wouldn't try to stick them in just to look cool - because in those cases it's never cool and usually comes out as bad writing. And even when you do use them, be very careful to avoid excessive usage.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 20, 2016)

Hm...in my work, I tend to select words carefully. I don't have a familiar religion, so the only curses I use are damn and maybe gods-damned. So not very clever, but useful in some places for emphasis.

I tend to use other kinds of curse-type statements that aren't common (but not that made-up horribleness we're talking about earlier in the thread with Deity name + Feature/ symbol= lame curse). I pick things that are insulting or feel like common cultural references or references, but I try to be completely original for some and use folk ones for another. Like have you ever listened to a hillbilly spin metaphors? OMG, I love that shit! Andy, my old coworker used to say, "It's colder than a well-digger's ass in here," and I just love putting in little personal thoughts like that from time to time. Try not to draw too much attention to them, but for certain characters, it's their personality.

After reading this thread, I realize the swear words I favor personally are vulgarities, and I think that makes a lot of sense. Since religion doesn't play a major part of my stories, it wouldn't be likely for true curses to be prevalent. Likewise with some historical-feeling curses or insults, since my world isn't the real world. Things like, "pox on you," or whatever is just silly if you don't have small pox, etc..

SO yeah, I like vulgar language, I suppose, and the thing is, I think it fits. Most of my characters are gray morality, have hard backgrounds, and aren't exactly having a good day if I'm writing them into a story. Even when I write a high-born character who is the picture of womanly grace in public, she'll lay into someone in private and use the words that convey her ire. And I do try to rely first on my extensive vocabulary. I mean, I don't go to s**thead first when I'm insulting someone as her, but I do make sure I get my point across, and it's sometimes still vulgar though I avoid those most common words we favor as modern English-speakers, and i have such a habit for swearing constantly in my home and when I'm stressed, but out in public or at work, or wherever, I don't swear at all. I figure my characters can be the same way if they want


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## Laurence (Mar 20, 2016)

If you're looking for replacement swears without making up nonsense words for the reader to translate, consider shortening the real ones instead to their last consonant and suffix if it's a verb. 

If a computer were to translate my speech in real life directly, it would sound something like this:

"I'm going to be so 'king late..."

"You are just awful. 'Koff mate.'

Replacing them with actions to imply the frustration translated through a swear word also works well.

"I'm not going to visit your-" Laurence's fist thudded against the table, "parents for the third night running!"


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## MineOwnKing (Mar 20, 2016)

I love the curse words of old man McGucket. (Gravity Falls)

Honey fogelin', saltlickin' skullduggery

Get outta here, you salt lickin', hornswagglin!... 

Well kettle my corn. He vanish-ified.

Oh, you've really tarred it up now, Fiddleford.

Sweet sarsaparilla.


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## S.T. Ockenner (Dec 8, 2020)

I don't use profanity, and my characters don't either, except for in very extreme situations they may say, at most, a more explicit version of 'dang' or 'darn'. It also is similar to what keeps water in, and it sends people to the underworld.


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## Chris O'Brien (Dec 20, 2020)

I wouldn't worry. If you feel they're needed, consider using your own implied words. You mentioned you already do this in relation to God's.

Farscape. They use the word (if I remember correctly) 'frek' or 'frak'. Frak. Frak you. Frak me. Frak this. Frak that. It's implied what it means, clearly.

What a load of kosk!
Oi, love, fancy givin' us a quick whisk?
Get here, ya kragging cupper!

Wouldn't suggest using the above but give them a name, imply it's a curse, and rude.

"What a load of kosk!" Valdon cursed. 
"Oi, love, fancy givin' us a quick whisk?" the burly patron grumbled, snatching the wench's hand, and pulling her harshly towards his nether regions.

Let your readers know what it means, and then they'll be on your page so you can use then more liberally and without repeatedly explaining it.


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