# Why does "Publishing" have to equal "Revenue"?



## Dreamhand (Dec 4, 2011)

I've noticed an assumption among writers that Publication=Revenue.  Now, while I get that we all want to be paid for our brilliance, I think the idea that "the only way I want my work released is if I can make money on it" is limiting... and a little mercenary.  

I'm NOT bashing the idea of getting paid.  *I'm TOTALLY down with it and believe it to be a reasonable expectation* (I cannot emphasize that enough).  But if the only people that see a writer's work are publisher's slush-pile readers and literary agents, then why write in the first place?  If making money is your primary goal as a writer, then why not become an investment broker?

I'm literally stunned by the number of writers who vehemently dismiss the notion of podcasting their work for free or offering it as a free e-book.  The response is either "But if it's free, no one will think it has value!" or "I worked too hard on this to just give it away".  

Personally, I feel both arguments are short-sighted and don't encompass the full scope of anyone's writing career.  I mean, knowing that people are reading and enjoying one's work... that you've made a connection and inspired new ideas and emotions in one's audience... that your work has value to people beyond a price tag... isn't that a big part of why we write in the first place?  And if so, then why NOT podcast it?  Why NOT offer it as a free e-book?  Why NOT get it out there and circulating and generating discussion and critical review among the very people we hope will someday buy our books?

Look at it this way... let's say you ARE the next Stephen King or Patrick Rothfuss.  So let's say you release your heart-breaking work of staggering genius for free and it sweeps the interwebs and the literary communities like wild-fire.  It's on every Kindle and Nook and reviewers are singing its praises far and wide.  Are you telling me you've LOST?  That you've been cheated? 

If the book you've written is the ONLY book you'll ever write, then yeah, fine... mine it for gold.  But I think most of us have countless stories in us, waiting to be told.  If you're not currently on the best seller's list, if you're not earning your living as writer yet, then why not *get your work out there*?  It's easy, it's cheap, and it can be the spark that evolves into a vital and dynamic relationship between you, your work, and the community.

I'm not saying traditional publishing is wrong.  I'm saying that there are alternatives... and to dismiss them because they don't generate revenue is a self-imposed limitation that may prevent you from discovering a wealth of opportunities.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Dec 4, 2011)

It's funny, because a lot of musicians when starting out totally have the perspective that they're happy to give away their music, they just want to get heard and build an audience (musicians' revenue primarily comes from performances/touring, not music sales; or at least, it did before the Internet, when the big record labels were the only way to get wide exposure).

I don't really see any reason why authors can't be the same way. I've been toying with the idea of offering my novel for free on Amazon/PubIt/iTunes for a period of time before giving it a price (which would probably be $3.99 or so), and I'm _already_ planning on sending free ebook copies to any MS member who asks ;-)

I'm also down with exploring other methods of building an audience, the main issue right now being that I have very limited time to actually put into this whole writing endeavor, and I try to spend most of it actually writing (and the rest of it here with you fine folks). If I ever _do_ have the time to actually do all those things, like keeping up my blog and writing short stories as teasers and serializing through podcasting, I totally want to try them out.


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## Shadoe (Dec 4, 2011)

There are a couple of perspectives on that.

When a book is published by a publishing house, it means the book has been selected out of a hundred just like it and chosen to be the best. Then it gets the editing treatment, which means the crap gets taken out and at least a few eyes have looked at it and deemed it readable. Granted, this doesn't always make the book perfect, but it's got a better chance than self-published works do. It also means that the book is going to have a much wider audience than it would if it was self-published, since most people who self-publish don't have the bucks or contacts to advertise and distribute.

Going the publisher route also means that your book will simply cater to the lowest common denominator. It means that the publisher thinks it will appeal to a wide audience - not necessarily the audience you were aiming at when you read the book. It also means that you'll probably have to make changes to your work that you may not necessarily want to make.

Of course, avoiding the publisher route allows a self-published author to take the short and simple route to call themselves "published authors." That actually cheapens the title, I think. But, it also means that a work that would never have seen the light of day because the publisher didn't think it was marketable gets out there where people can enjoy it. On the other hand, it's going to be swimming in a sea of self-published drivel, so it'll be pretty hard to find. AND, a self-published author has to spend a lot of their own time publishing, marketing, and doing a lot of the other things that a publisher would normally be doing, taking away from the time that should be spent writing. And, self-publishing still carries quite a stigma.

There are positive and negative points to both sides. Personally, I have no plans to ever seek publication for my fiction. I get enough crap to deal with over my writing on my day job. And having been an involved onlooker in the SF/F publishing biz, I know I don't want to get involved in that.


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## Devor (Dec 4, 2011)

I think there's one good reason why writers should want to get paid for our writing:  So that we can write more.  We want to break that border between hobby and (partial) employment.

I don't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with writing as a hobby.  But in general, if you are getting paid to write, you can justify the hours of research, character mapping, world building, editing and peer review that it might take to create a higher quality project.  You can also spend more time doing what you love.


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## MichaelSullivan (Dec 4, 2011)

Some people write as a "hobby" and so their goal is not to make money at it. I don't see anything wrong with that. For me, I make a living from writing, and after years of my wife supporting me while I worked on my craft I now return the favor and she has been able to quit her day job. 

I think that free copies and podcasts are great ways to help building an audience, and again, if you want to be read (and don't care about money) then they are really worth doing. 

I'm giving away free short stories...my current one is The Viscount and the Witch. I've both self-published and traditionally published and both have provided me six-figure incomes. So it is possible to make good money without a publisher. 

The thing about writing, and other artistic pursuits is they are done both for enjoyment and (for some) income. Few plumbers will put in a bathroom for a strange "just cuz it's fun" so writing is a bit different than other "proffessions". I feel very fortunate that I can make a living doing what I love...and I won't apologize for wanting compensation for the many hours of work I put into my "craft."


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## MichaelSullivan (Dec 4, 2011)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> I don't really see any reason why authors can't be the same way. I've been toying with the idea of offering my novel for free on Amazon/PubIt/iTunes for a period of time before giving it a price (which would probably be $3.99 or so), and I'm _already_ planning on sending free ebook copies to any MS member who asks ;-)



The problem with your "plan" is you can't offer your book for free on Amazon or Pubit (You can though on iTunes). The lowest you can put it on those platforms is $0.99.  Maybe in the future they will allow authors to do so but they don't currently.  Yes...there are free books out there by indie authors but they are made that way on a "case-by-case" basis.  Usually you have to generate a decent amount of sales volume and THEN when you make it free elsewhere (like ibookstore) they MIGHT match it to $0.0.


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## writeshiek33 (Dec 4, 2011)

maybe series of free short stories might help build audience while i love to write i would love to be paid for it too


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Dec 5, 2011)

MichaelSullivan said:


> The problem with your "plan" is you can't offer your book for free on Amazon or Pubit (You can though on iTunes). The lowest you can put it on those platforms is $0.99.  Maybe in the future they will allow authors to do so but they don't currently.  Yes...there are free books out there by indie authors but they are made that way on a "case-by-case" basis.  Usually you have to generate a decent amount of sales volume and THEN when you make it free elsewhere (like ibookstore) they MIGHT match it to $0.0.



Curses. Well, offering it for $0.99 to start would probably increase sales volume a bit, or at least get people more likely to try it out.


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## writeshiek33 (Dec 5, 2011)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Curses. Well, offering it for $0.99 to start would probably increase sales volume a bit, or at least get people more likely to try it out.



don't forget amazon charges for listing


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Dec 5, 2011)

writeshiek33 said:


> don't forget amazon charges for listing



What do you mean? I know they only give you a percentage of the revenue, which makes sense. The idea is to make the price as low as possible, to maximize exposure rather than revenue.


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## Dreamhand (Dec 5, 2011)

It's my understanding that, if you let Amazon know that it's available for free somewhere else, they'll mark it as free as well (this is based on the recounting of an author's experience I heard on Dead Robots Society, so consider it second-hand information).  Also, you apparently CAN list it for free if you release the book through a publisher (check out this very interesting blog post).

_[EDIT: Michael Sullivan points out that Amazon MIGHT mark it for free.  Didn't want to be misleading]_

But dude... while Amazon is certainly the biggest "source" for e-books, they aren't the only way to distribute your work.  In fact, the sheer size and scope of their offerings makes it hard for people to actually discover your work unless its supported by some other marketing efforts.  There's also openlibrary.org, gutenburg.org, manybooks.net... AND (my personal favorite) your own blog/website.  And what about the Nook?  There's lots of free books on the B&N website but I'm not sure about their process.

We're blazing new trails of distribution and access here.  It may take some digging and some work (and almost certainly will), but getting your book out there for free is totally do-able.


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## Dreamhand (Dec 5, 2011)

You know... I understand that, for expediency, the terms "professional" and "hobbyist" are used to describe "someone who earns a living wage from publishing their work" and "someone who doesn't".  I get that, I understand it and I appreciate the value it has in expediting communication on the topic.

But those two terms are actually the root of the motivation behind making this post in the first place.  I didn't realize it at the time, but I had a very charged emotional response after reading the responses to my initial post.  Then today, I was listening to the Full Cast Podcast  today where they were interviewing J. Daniel Sawyer (episode 2 and 3) and it finally hit me.

The term "hobbyist" is so dismissive, especially when presented as the opposite of "professional."  And I think a lot of us get wrapped up in wanting to be professional, to be the guy or girl in the room who has nothing to prove.  And being presented (again and again) with the idea that the only credible proof of being a professional is to make money on our writing sends a very limiting  - and potentially demoralizing - message.

I say again... I'm not against making money of our writing.  I WANT to make money off my writing, and I congratulate and admire those craftsmen and craftswomen who have achieved that goal.

What I'm hoping to convey to those of us who HAVEN'T yet made that leap is that "professional" does not mean "paid".  A profession implies some endeavor that entails a high degree of skill and craft to carry out.  Garbage Collector is not a profession (under this definition)... Brain Surgeon is.  And Writer/Author is very definitely a profession, requiring a high degree of skill and awareness to execute effectively.  I want to make sure that those of us who are still in the formative stages of our careers don't let preconceptions of what a professional is and what publishing entails become a demoralizing goad.  

The idea of someone writing an excellent story and then waiting years (if ever) to share it with the world because the "only way to be professional is to get a publisher to sell it", breaks my heart.  I say get it out there, receive the accolades and criticism that will feed and nurture that creative muse. If you're that good, you'll be paid soon enough.  And if you're NOT that good, then getting it out there will help get you there.


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## Steerpike (Dec 5, 2011)

Dreamhand, I think your definition of professional is correct as far as it goes, but falls short. In looking up a quick definition it mentions skill or formal training, but also in the same definition indicates that it represents a paid occupation. I agree with that. The word should have meaning and should distinguish itself from a word like amateur. An amateur or hobbysist may also employ a great deal of skill, but if one is not making at least a portion of one's living through writing, one is not a professional writer.


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## Devor (Dec 5, 2011)

Steerpike said:


> An amateur or hobbysist may also employ a great deal of skill, but if one is not making at least a portion of one's living through writing, one is not a professional writer.



What he said.  A "professional" is typically someone who is getting paid for their skill and does so as a profession.

I deliberately used the word employment instead of professional in my post above because I know that word alone can strike a sore point for some people.  It shouldn't, but it does, even with me.  I think it's probably because "unprofessional" has such a broad and insulting meaning, and we sometimes hear that word as being somehow implied in these conversations.

I haven't run into the word "hobby" being viewed dismissively before.  I'm kind of surprised by that.  But I guess most other hobbies don't really lead into moneymaking.

I don't think anyone here means to imply that someone's work is somehow inferior just because they aren't writing professionally and being paid.  I do think that time can increase your quality, and getting paid can buy you more time, but I don't think anyone here would go farther than that.

I particularly wouldn't use an audience as proof of quality; I've seen too much garbage in print.  And I've certainly read many quality stories for which the author was never paid.

I suppose there's one more thing to add, as I might hazard a guess as to what might have inspired your thread, Dreamhand.  I wouldn't consider someone to have been "published" unless they've been paid for their work, at least a little.  Strictly speaking I'm probably wrong.  I wouldn't mean it as anything more than a convention of the sort you mentioned with professional and hobby.


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## Steerpike (Dec 5, 2011)

Those are good points, Devor. People do perhaps view professional as the opposite of unprofessional in this context. I agree that it is a mistake to do so, but it could explain why people are put off by the use of the word to distinguish someone who makes a living from something (or at least a good portion of their living from it), as opposed to those who do not.

I typically use the words "amateur" and "professional," and primarily to make the distinction I set forth above. I'm come across some very good amateur writers, and also some poor professional ones, so I do not think the terms are automatic indicators of quality.

If you put work up on the web or distribute it in eBooks for free, I'd say you are an amateur writer. But that doesn't mean you are a bad writer by any means.


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## Dreamhand (Dec 5, 2011)

Devor said:


> ...I might hazard a guess as to what might have inspired your thread, Dreamhand.



Points to Devor.  Very astute, my friend. 

I need to clarify some things:

*1) I was wrong to try and introduce semantics into this discussion*
My apologies.  I'd rather not debate the definition and usage of "professional" and "hobby" and "amateur".  The terms were what crystallized my motivation for the post and so I followed that impulse.  I'm more than happy to discuss this in a separate topic, but it's really not what I hoped this thread would be about.

*2) I wasn't pointing fingers or accusing MS Members*
In reviewing my post, I realized it could be interpreted as me taking issue with specific member's use of the term "hobby".  While that concept is (clearly) a hot topic for me, it was not my intention to get snarly with my MS brothers and sisters.  I love you guys and I value the dialog and insights you share.

Moving on...

In my original post, I was suggesting that there are alternatives to the conventional approach to getting published.  I suggested that getting your work out there for free - as an e-book or podcast or whatever - builds an audience and can get you to your goal of being a PAID author as effectively as tossing your manuscript on the slush pile of a big publisher.  I proposed that getting your work into the hands (or ears) of an audience should be considered "being published."

The general tone (until I derailed it with semantics... again mea culpa) seemed to be that my assumption is incorrect.  That it's all well and good to "write for fun" and give away your work, but you're not a "real author" until you've been paid, no matter how many downloads you have.  

Really?

I'd like to clarify that I'm not suggesting that a writer ALWAYS give EVERYTHING away for free FOREVER.  I'm suggesting that, by circulating your work and promoting it effectively, you will acquire a following and gain vital insight in writing and publication (certainly more than you will waiting for an agent to read your query letter).  To put it another way, I'm saying that investing some "sweat-equity" into your career up front - by writing awesome books and getting them out there in some form or another for free - is a viable and proven means to attaining a writing career.

Furthermore, I'm NOT saying ignore conventional methods of publication.  Find an agent!  Submit to publishers!  Follow all those tried-and-true methods.  But while you're waiting (for weeks or months) for someone to decide if you're worth giving a second look to, why not explore some alternatives?  Engage with your work and the community on a whole different level!

Respectfully, I direct your attentions to the websites of the following authors who make their living off their writing:

Scott Sigler: ScottSigler.com
Tee Morris: TeeMorris.com
Phillipa Ballantine: Philippa Ballantine
J.C. Hutchins J.C. Hutchins: New Fiction And Author Updates |

Again... authors who are making a living getting paid as authors.  Every one of them began podcasting their work as serialized audiobooks offered for free, built an audience, and carved their niche in the speculative fiction market.

_[EDIT: Michael Sullivan points out in a later post that I'm mistaken regarding Tee and J.C..  My apologies for not checking my facts]_

Now if that's not your scene, I get that.  It's not for everyone.  But if you're reading this and feeling intimidated by the conventional publishing path, I'm here to tell you... there ARE alternatives.


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## Steerpike (Dec 5, 2011)

Dreamhand said:


> Now if that's not your scene, I get that.  It's not for everyone.  But if you're reading this and feeling intimidated by the conventional publishing path, I'm here to tell you... there ARE alternatives.



I don't think anyone who really dispute that in so far as it goes. The other options are there. The likelihood of success using these alternative paths is small, but that is true of going the traditional route as well.


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## Devor (Dec 5, 2011)

Dreamhand said:


> Again... authors who are making a living getting paid as authors.  Every one of them began podcasting their work as serialized audiobooks offered for free, built an audience, and carved their niche in the speculative fiction market.
> 
> Now if that's not your scene, I get that.  It's not for everyone.  But if you're reading this and feeling intimidated by the conventional publishing path, I'm here to tell you... there ARE alternatives.



Let me put it differently.  I feel a little like we're still arguing semantics.  If you're podcasting for free with the goal of eventually getting your work published by a publisher, I would consider that marketing.  Podcasting by itself is a different medium and a successful podcaster, I think, has to be judged under different standards.

If you post a youtube video in the hopes of directing people to your blog where you post your work on line, that's marketing.  I have a friend who's part of a group that posts skits and movie reviews on youtube which can earn as much a thousand dollars a month.  She is successfully publishing on youtube.

You might think I have a negative view of such efforts simply because I use the word "marketing."  I majored in Marketing and Economics at NYU's Stern School of Business.  I assure you, I mean to imply absolutely no negative connotations to the word.  It is absolutely a valid way to promote your work and help to achieve your goals.  I only mean that it is a means to an end rather than the end unto itself.


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## Dreamhand (Dec 5, 2011)

I gotcha... yeah I think we may have crossed our wires there.  

To my way of thinking (which, I'm learning, is becoming increasingly more divergent from the mainstream), there IS no "end".  The continuum of a writing career is on-going and whatever you've written today is not the last thing you're going to write.  Mike Sullivan's contract with Orbit Books is not the last contract he'll ever have.  When I podcast my stories, that's not the last podcast I'll ever do.  Every choice, every action is step on the path... even a book that took you years to write.  

No need to apologize for invoking marketing.  Heck, everything we do as writers that reaches even the smallest fraction of the public eye is marketing.  And yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about... in the context of a writing career, if you put your stuff out there for free so it's accessible, that helps you (in the words of Sigler) "prove to the fans that [you are] worth their money before they even spend a penny."

If your book is reasonably good and you get a decent voice guy to produce it and then podcast that production for free, you have the opportunity to get read/listened-to by thousands of fans.  If you cross-promote with other podcasts and market the podcast even marginally on your blog and Facebook and twitter, you'll access those fans.

Now people know your work.  NOW when you write the next book (you WERE planning on writing more than one book, right?) you have people who recognize you, who will look for you and google you.  

And it's not just "books"... short stories and novellas are just fine for that medium!  And authors sell short stories in the Kindle Store all the time!  And the more you put up there, the more credibility you get and the more trust the buyers are willing to invest in you.  You DO have to hold up on your end and give them a great read, but that's a whole different thread.

So yeah, Devor... it's absolutely marketing.  "Publishing" DOESN'T have to equal "revenue" if you look at it from the broad perspective of an entire career, yes?  Publishing is just one step of a much broader career continuum... and to get hung up on it slows down the whole train.


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## Steerpike (Dec 5, 2011)

I don't think any general approach can be characterized as 'right' or 'wrong.' I know some successful authors who have gone the traditional route and advised me (and others) never to give away work for free. In their view, you always go with a paying market, or with some other traditional approach that compensates the writer. I think that may very well have been good advice when these people started as professional writers, but I don't think it holds true today. One might take the traditional route, or instead one might take advantage of the potential of new publishing models in the digital age.

The only real issue between the two is managing expectations. I know people who have self-published eBooks who, at least early on, were pretty sure that making the work available and maybe putting in a little bit of marketing effort was going to translate into a success story (financially). The truth is, the likelihood of that happening is relatively small. The same goes for podcasts of works and the like, which some authors do. It is not a bad idea by any means, and as part of an overall marketing strategy it may be helpful, but self-published writers have to remain cognizant of the fact that in all likelihood an ultimate success will be a lengthy process and may be modest at best. I've seen over-inflated expectations have a really negative impact on writers and other artists when they don't play out. 

None of the alternative approaches to marketing oneself and one's work are bad, and I think many of them can be effectively combined as part of an overall strategy. For most of us, there won't be a quick path to success, however, whether as self-published authors or ones who are traditionally-published.


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## Devor (Dec 5, 2011)

Steerpike said:


> The only real issue between the two is managing expectations. I know people who have self-published eBooks who, at least early on, were pretty sure that making the work available and maybe putting in a little bit of marketing effort was going to translate into a success story (financially). The truth is, the likelihood of that happening is relatively small. The same goes for podcasts of works and the like, which some authors do. It is not a bad idea by any means, and as part of an overall marketing strategy it may be helpful, but self-published writers have to remain cognizant of the fact that in all likelihood an ultimate success will be a lengthy process and may be modest at best. I've seen over-inflated expectations have a really negative impact on writers and other artists when they don't play out.



I'm sorry, I feel almost honor bound to respond, and I'm not even sure why.  You're mostly right.  I just think there's a critical point which needs to be raised.  I think most authors just don't know how to do it well.

Publishing Audio and Video on the web is a completely different medium.  It needs to be approached with a completely different style in order to be effective.  When done correctly it can absolutely lead to quantifiable and even somewhat predictable results.

The problem is that the reach of a simple web posting is extremely limited, and you need to develop clever ways to distribute your website online.  Even when done correctly, it typically takes about a year of dedicated effort for a blog or a website or anything online to build its viewership enough to be considered successful.

I imagine most people just don't realize how much it takes.


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## Steerpike (Dec 5, 2011)

Devor said:


> I imagine most people just don't realize how much it takes.



I suspect that is true. But even if you manage to get viewership up on your blog or web site, will that necessarily translate into eBook sales? Some people seem to get at least a moderate level of exposure through free offerings, but have a hard time translating that into sales for non-free items. 

You are right - people do not know how to do it, or how long it will take. I think they tend to get disappointed very quickly when they have the mistaken impression that things will develop quickly and with minimal effort. A lot of creative people have that view, at least early on, whether they be writers, artists, inventors, or what have you. And they don't always appreciate the reality check if you try to give it to them in advance. My hope is that people who are serious will be vigorous in their attempts to market their work, increase their readership, or what have you, but will also be realistic in their expectations so they do not suffer a huge let down.


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## Devor (Dec 5, 2011)

Steerpike said:


> I suspect that is true. But even if you manage to get viewership up on your blog or web site, will that necessarily translate into eBook sales? Some people seem to get at least a moderate level of exposure through free offerings, but have a hard time translating that into sales for non-free items.



There's too many factors involved to give an answer that applies across the board.  Quality, target audience, competition... a lot of people still don't read ebooks at all.  But if marketed correctly the ebook should sell about as well or a little more than what these factors warrant.  Which may or may not be very much at all.  But especially if your real goal is to sell your work to a Publisher, I'm going to say that it can be a very viable option if you know what you're doing.  But you're right, if you don't know what you're doing or what to expect you will be sorely disappointed.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Dec 6, 2011)

Here's how I think about this:

1) If you're writing (actively, doing it regularly, not daydreaming about maybe someday doing it), then you're a writer. If you publish that work, you're a published writer. Some folks use the term "author" for that. Doesn't matter if your book is free or if your book costs $1000 a copy. You're a published author.

2) If your writing is making a substantial portion of your income, then you are a professional writer. You're not a professional anything unless you are making it your profession - i.e. making a living, or at least a chunk of a living, from that work.

You can be an author without being a professional. You can be an author without making a dime.

And lastly, even for a professional writer, there are going to be some times and some cases where it is VERY valuable to give away work. I haven't read any of Michael's books (sorry, Michael! they're on The List!), but I have downloaded his short story now, and maybe that will get be hot to read all his books next.

Kris Rusch just had a book go free recently (from Sourcebooks, incidentally one of the more progressive of the well known publishers out there, IMHO). Being free catapulted the book into the #1 slot in fantasy/SF/paranormal romance, knocking out *everything* else, and it stuck in the top 20 for quite a long time after it was put back to full price. They gave away thousands of books and made TENS of thousands of dollars on that deal. Not counting all of her other work - including a bucketload of self published stuff - that also saw very strong increased sales and probably will for quite a while, as a trickledown effect.

Another indie writer I know, Tara Maya, used the method of putting her book free on Smashwords - which then put it free on B&N - which coupled with a bunch of people pressing the "lower price elsewhere" button on Amazon ended up with Amazon making the book free too (they don't always do this: generally, they just do it on books they think have potential, especially by writers with multiple other books so they can see additional revenue from other book sales). Tara's free book was first in a trilogy. She's giving away thousands and thousands of copies - I think over 10k now - and guess how sales of her other books are doing? Guess what's going to happen to the sales of those other books early next year during the big rush of post X-mas ebook sales?

Yeah, there are absolutely times when going free can be a boon, even to the professional writer.


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## Telcontar (Dec 6, 2011)

You're describing loss-leaders. The first book of a series, or a promotional short-term giveaway, are all meant to stimulate other sales. The bet by the person offering the free work is that it will lead to increased revenue in the long-term. 

I certainly agree that it is good to give away work - especially as it helps combat the niggardly "You must pay me for every word!" greediness that I've seen happen to authors before.

Also, to Devor, about this:



> Publishing Audio and Video on the web is a completely different medium. It needs to be approached with a completely different style in order to be effective. When done correctly it can absolutely lead to quantifiable and even somewhat predictable results.



I'd be interested in finding out what kind of results you mean. I hope you didn't mean to imply that a properly done Audio and video publishing is a sure-fire way to financial success.


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## Devor (Dec 6, 2011)

Telcontar said:


> I'd be interested in finding out what kind of results you mean. I hope you didn't mean to imply that a properly done Audio and video publishing is a sure-fire way to financial success.



I mean that it's a business, just like anything else that brings in money.  And if you look at the elements of your business - product, marketing, customer base, competition, distribution, innovation, work inputs, etc. - then it should be a little bit _predictable_ how well you will do.  And if you're capable of doing what it takes to improve those factors, then yes you are likely to achieve some measure of success.  If you're not capable of improving your product and distribution, or of widening your target audience sufficiently (or else in reaching a large percentage of your "niche" market), then you will (rather predictably) fail.


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## Telcontar (Dec 6, 2011)

Certainly, but the same could be said of any endeavor - if you can get all the parts right, you should be successful. Can _realistically expect_ to be successful, even. In that way, then, audio publishing is the same as print. Despite the fact that different styles and approaches are necessary for each, the statement: "When done correctly it can absolutely lead to quantifiable and even somewhat predictable results" holds true for both (and everything else).

The problem being that 'doing it correctly' is the hard part in the first place.


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## MichaelSullivan (Dec 8, 2011)

Dreamhand said:


> It's my understanding that, if you let Amazon know that it's available for free somewhere else, they'll mark it as free as well (this is based on the recounting of an author's experience I heard on Dead Robots Society, so consider it second-hand information).  Also, you apparently CAN list it for free if you release the book through a publisher (check out this very interesting blog post).



No this is not true...they MAY make it free - but there are many people who have tried this approach and their books never went free. I've personally used this on a few occassions and was able to get mine free but a lot of that (I suspect) is because I had good sales volume and other books that people could buy and Amazon could make money on.  The post you have is from 2009 which is like a decade in e-book years.  



Dreamhand said:


> But dude... while Amazon is certainly the biggest "source" for e-books, they aren't the only way to distribute your work.  In fact, the sheer size and scope of their offerings makes it hard for people to actually discover your work unless its supported by some other marketing efforts.  There's also openlibrary.org, gutenburg.org, manybooks.net... AND (my personal favorite) your own blog/website.  And what about the Nook?  There's lots of free books on the B&N website but I'm not sure about their process.



They also do not offer the option to "post for free" - Again they may or may not price match - My Viscount and the Witch short story is free on Amazon but is $0.99 (The cheapest I can make it) for nook.'



Dreamhand said:


> We're blazing new trails of distribution and access here.  It may take some digging and some work (and almost certainly will), but getting your book out there for free is totally do-able.



Very easy via smashwords - they offer it for free - but not many books are sold through there. They do populate to Kobo and ibookstore so using them you can get free books to those platforms.


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## MichaelSullivan (Dec 8, 2011)

Dreamhand said:


> The term "hobbyist" is so dismissive, especially when presented as the opposite of "professional."  And I think a lot of us get wrapped up in wanting to be professional, to be the guy or girl in the room who has nothing to prove.  And being presented (again and again) with the idea that the only credible proof of being a professional is to make money on our writing sends a very limiting  - and potentially demoralizing - message.



That's interesting...in my head I don't associate any "negative" attributes to the word "hobbyist".  To me its a matter of motivation. A hobby is something you do just because you love to do it. You aren't doing it to make money - you're doing it because you find it an enjoyable way to spend your time.  A "profession" is something you do to make money (again my defintion) so in this case a garbage man and a brain surgeon are each practicing a profession.

Now to be "professional" has to do with how much care you take in your work.  And you can do apply a professional mindset to your hobby.  If I'm making bird houses for fun I might not care whether everything lines up properly.  If I make a bird house for fun and do so profesionally then the house will be of very high quality when I'm finished. If I make a bird house to sell - I better ensure it is of high quality - but also have to consider "business aspects" such as the cost of materials, the price of labor, what the market will bear. It may be that I can't produce the bird house at a price that people can afford to buy and if that is the case...and I'm happy just producing them "for myself" then that's fine - but I'm doing a hobby not running a business.



Dreamhand said:


> I say again... I'm not against making money of our writing.  I WANT to make money off my writing, and I congratulate and admire those craftsmen and craftswomen who have achieved that goal.
> 
> What I'm hoping to convey to those of us who HAVEN'T yet made that leap is that "professional" does not mean "paid".  A profession implies some endeavor that entails a high degree of skill and craft to carry out.  Garbage Collector is not a profession (under this definition)... Brain Surgeon is.  And Writer/Author is very definitely a profession, requiring a high degree of skill and awareness to execute effectively.  I want to make sure that those of us who are still in the formative stages of our careers don't let preconceptions of what a professional is and what publishing entails become a demoralizing goad.
> 
> The idea of someone writing an excellent story and then waiting years (if ever) to share it with the world because the "only way to be professional is to get a publisher to sell it", breaks my heart.  I say get it out there, receive the accolades and criticism that will feed and nurture that creative muse. If you're that good, you'll be paid soon enough.  And if you're NOT that good, then getting it out there will help get you there.



No disagreement there.


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## MichaelSullivan (Dec 8, 2011)

Dreamhand said:


> The general tone (until I derailed it with semantics... again mea culpa) seemed to be that my assumption is incorrect.  That it's all well and good to "write for fun" and give away your work, but you're not a "real author" until you've been paid, no matter how many downloads you have.



A "real author" is a slippery slope again because it is a very subjective term. In the simplist of terms...if you have an audience (whether or not they pay for you work) then you are a "real author". But I could also make the statment that someone could write a masterpiece that is "just for themselves" and has no audience...how is that not "real".  



Dreamhand said:


> I'd like to clarify that I'm not suggesting that a writer ALWAYS give EVERYTHING away for free FOREVER.  I'm suggesting that, by circulating your work and promoting it effectively, you will acquire a following and gain vital insight in writing and publication (certainly more than you will waiting for an agent to read your query letter).  To put it another way, I'm saying that investing some "sweat-equity" into your career up front - by writing awesome books and getting them out there in some form or another for free - is a viable and proven means to attaining a writing career.



You are actually combining two things here...getting your work out there without an agent/publisher...in other words self-publishing.  Then you mentioned "for free".  Why combine the two?  Why can't you self-publish AND charge?  If you want to use free as a promotional aspect -that's fine but I don't why you are linking the two as one thing.



Dreamhand said:


> Respectfully, I direct your attentions to the websites of the following authors who make their living off their writing:
> Scott Sigler: ScottSigler.com
> Tee Morris: TeeMorris.com
> Phillipa Ballantine: Philippa Ballantine
> J.C. Hutchins J.C. Hutchins: New Fiction And Author Updates |



I know Tee personally and he doesn't make his living off of writing - he has a day job.  We have talked on several occassions how much he would LIKE to make a living from writing. Yes he is published professionally and is therefore paid for his writing - but it doesn't pay all the bills. I believe Scott is indeed solely supported by his writing - but he has also made the NYT bestseller list. Pip is married to Tee and I don't think she has a day job. Originally it may have been a visa issue. Now that she is married it may be that she stays home to raise Tee's daughter - I don't know but I suspect based on her # of titles and their sales volumes (as evidenced by Amazon rankings) she probably could not support herself solely on her writing - but I confess I don't have the details and may be wrong about this.  J.C. Hutchins...he jumped from podcasting to get a book deal with St. Martins. As I recall they published one of a trilogy but it didn't do well enough for them to produce the other two - again I would venture he has some day job supporting him.



Dreamhand said:


> Again... authors who are making a living getting paid as authors.  Every one of them began podcasting their work as serialized audiobooks offered for free, built an audience, and carved their niche in the speculative fiction market.



Actually most authors, don't "make a living" getting paid as authors. They make "sublimental income" and most still have their day jobs. For the record, I do make my living from my writing. For years we lived on a single income (my wife's) as she made six-figures and we could live well on that. Once my income from writing exceeded hers...and after we had two years of income saved up in the bank...we felt comfortable having her quit her job so now we live solely off my writing.  Also for the record - this is not the "norm" in the world of writing. Many writers - even those with multiple titles don't make enough to cover all their bills (especially if you live in an expensive part of the country as I do).   Some move to remote areas that have low cost of living so that they can live from their writing income.  In general this is one one of the more difficult professions to make a living wage from.



Dreamhand said:


> Now if that's not your scene, I get that.  It's not for everyone.  But if you're reading this and feeling intimidated by the conventional publishing path, I'm here to tell you... there ARE alternatives.



Of course there are...I'm not sure why you think that people are not aware of this fact. You can podcast, you can self-publish, you can use a small press, or you can go the traditional route. There are many options these days and no single one is right - you just have to align your goals with the avenues available.


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## MichaelSullivan (Dec 8, 2011)

Dreamhand said:


> Mike Sullivan's contract with Orbit Books is not the last contract he'll ever have.



Well since I can't make that statement...how can you?  If my sales are no good why would Orbit offer me another? Even if my sales are good - what if they hate the next book I write? Or the one after that?  If Orbit won't publish me why would another publisher step up to the plate? Getting one contract is no guarantee of more.  Each project is looked upon individually. Yes if you sell well your chances are "better" but more often than not authors fail to live up to the goals the publisher was looking for so they are cut loose.  In some cases this occurs even though they are under contract...for instance they might cancel books 2 - 3 of a three book deal becaues book 1 under performs.   What's more...maybe they'll want me but the money they offer won't be as high as I suspect I can make on my own...in that case I might turn down an offer and return to self-publishing.  Maybe I'll decide that writing is just too much of a pain and quit altogether.  I doubt that will be the case - but it could. I actually quit wirting for ten years because I wasn't getting anywhere.


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## MichaelSullivan (Dec 8, 2011)

Steerpike said:


> The only real issue between the two is managing expectations. I know people who have self-published eBooks who, at least early on, were pretty sure that making the work available and maybe putting in a little bit of marketing effort was going to translate into a success story (financially). The truth is, *the likelihood of that happening is relatively small.*



Emphasis mine.  I think in the "old days" (read when I started self-publishing in 2008) that was indeed true. But I follow the "indie" scene pretty closely (well actually my wife does and she talks my ear off about it) and there are hundreds of authors that make good money doing this. Is it everyone? No? Is it most? No. But I venture to say that it is about the same % (maybe even better) of people who make it through traditional routes.  In other words if there are 10,000 queries to agents the number of projects that make it to market is approximatley equivalent to the number of books that are successfully self-published out of 10,000 titles uploaded.

The reason for this is that most writing won't "make it". It takes a lot of skill and talent to write a book. It takes a lot of marketing to get a book noticed.  The book has to be really good to find a grass-roots word-of-mouth groundswell to get others to read it. All those planets have to align to "make it" and the chances against any author are pretty astronomical. I don't see this equation changing dramatically much whether it is self or traditionally published. In both cases "only really good" books are going to live through the process.  Those seeking traditional publishing will have their "bad projects" die by never making it past the "gatekeepers" (agents/editors).  Those seeking self-publishing will suffer low (or no) sales.



Steerpike said:


> The same goes for podcasts of works and the like, which some authors do. It is not a bad idea by any means, and as part of an overall marketing strategy it may be helpful, but self-published writers have to remain cognizant of the fact that in all likelihood an ultimate success will be a lengthy process and may be modest at best. I've seen over-inflated expectations have a really negative impact on writers and other artists when they don't play out.


Agreed - but again applies to both paths. Publishing in either incarnation is a marathon not a sprint and in most cases, success comes after years, or decades.



Steerpike said:


> None of the alternative approaches to marketing oneself and one's work are bad, and I think many of them can be effectively combined as part of an overall strategy. For most of us, there won't be a quick path to success, however, whether as self-published authors or ones who are traditionally-published.



Agreed.


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## Dreamhand (Dec 8, 2011)

MichaelSullivan said:


> Well since I can't make that statement...how can you?



Because you're a writer?  Because you will likely continue to BE a writer and you will write more books that will require new contracts? I can say it with conviction because I've read your work and you have a gift for story-telling.  I can say it because, based on your posts and activity in your blog and here on MS, you clearly love this work and will likely continue pursuing it.

My question is: pragmatism aside, why can't YOU say it?  Do you really think your current contract WILL be your last?

The point I was hoping to reinforce with that statement is that each effort of publication - whether it's offering a free e-book or podcast, or pursuing the acquisition of an agent or publishing deal - is a single step on a long adventure.  Commit to each step seriously, but don't get so wound up in its outcome that you become paralyzed and blind to the other paths open to you.



			
				MichaelSullivan said:
			
		

> I know Tee personally and he doesn't make his living off of writing - he has a day job



My apologies for misrepresenting Tee's status and thank you for correcting me.  I recall an interview where I thought he had mentioned "quitting his day job" but after reviewing it, found I was mistaken.  I've edited that post accordingly.



			
				MichaelSullivan said:
			
		

> Actually most authors, don't "make a living" getting paid as authors



Well sure, just like "most stage actors don't make a living getting paid as actors" and "most fine artists don't make a living selling their artwork."  I'm assuming your point here is that many authors whose names we recognize (and assume spend their days writing their next novel) are actually still working a day job and writing when they can find the time.  And that's a valid point... it aligns with Steerpike's observations regarding expectations and Devor's comments about being aware of what's involved.  I completely agree.



			
				MichaelSullivan said:
			
		

> Of course there are [alternatives to conventional publishing]...I'm not sure why you think that people are not aware of this fact.



[bracketed text is mine]

I made an assumption based on the prevalence of "conventional publishing" posts and the relative dearth of threads addressing alternative methods.  Also, I've had recent exchanges that have been dismissive of these alternate methods and I (perhaps arrogantly) assumed others have had similar experiences.  I hoped to expand awareness among the MS community of the viability and validity of those options.


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## MichaelSullivan (Dec 12, 2011)

Dreamhand said:


> Because you're a writer?  Because you will likely continue to BE a writer and you will write more books that will require new contracts? I can say it with conviction because I've read your work and you have a gift for story-telling.  I can say it because, based on your posts and activity in your blog and here on MS, you clearly love this work and will likely continue pursuing it.
> 
> My question is: pragmatism aside, why can't YOU say it?  Do you really think your current contract WILL be your last?



Just because I continue to write doesn't mean I'll be "under contract".  If sales no meet expectations - I'll be dropped.  If they don't like the next project I write - it won't be picked up. I've self-published in the past and enjoy the freedom of doing so and I might return to that. Will this be my first and last?  No idea...but I'm pragmatic enough to know that there are no guarntees in any profession and most especially in publishing which can be quite fickle.



Dreamhand said:


> The point I was hoping to reinforce with that statement is that each effort of publication - whether it's offering a free e-book or podcast, or pursuing the acquisition of an agent or publishing deal - is a single step on a long adventure.  Commit to each step seriously, but don't get so wound up in its outcome that you become paralyzed and blind to the other paths open to you.



No disaggrement there.




Dreamhand said:


> My apologies for misrepresenting Tee's status and thank you for correcting me.  I recall an interview where I thought he had mentioned "quitting his day job" but after reviewing it, found I was mistaken.  I've edited that post accordingly.
> 
> Well sure, just like "most stage actors don't make a living getting paid as actors" and "most fine artists don't make a living selling their artwork."  I'm assuming your point here is that many authors whose names we recognize (and assume spend their days writing their next novel) are actually still working a day job and writing when they can find the time.  And that's a valid point... it aligns with Steerpike's observations regarding expectations and Devor's comments about being aware of what's involved.  I completely agree.



No worries - you correctly pointed out my position which is that I don't want people to get the wrong impression that writing for a living is commonplace. I think we all "wish" that were the case - but most authors I know (even those with multiple titles on the market) keep their day job. It's a sorry state of afairs but it is is what it is.



Dreamhand said:


> I made an assumption based on the prevalence of "conventional publishing" posts and the relative dearth of threads addressing alternative methods.  Also, I've had recent exchanges that have been dismissive of these alternate methods and I (perhaps arrogantly) assumed others have had similar experiences.  I hoped to expand awareness among the MS community of the viability and validity of those options.



There are many options now that didn't exist even a few years ago. I've not noticed a dismissive attitude toward alternate methods and of course since I used alternate methods you'll see nothing but full support of exploring all types of ways to meet your goals.


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