# A Question of Faith



## Androxine Vortex (Aug 7, 2012)

This problem has been bugging me the past few days and I wanted to share it with you and maybe get some help. This is a very personal and religious issue so please be respectful of my beliefs.

I am a Christian. I have been one for a long time. I have asked Jesus to be my Savior and for Him to forgive my sins. I also love writing. Ever since I could first read and write I made my own books and stories. It has always been my favorite hobby my entire life.

I took a look at some of my stories the other day and began to question them. Nearly all of them involve magic. The Bible specifically prohibits magic; no if, and or buts. But because I create a character that uses magic, I am in no way trying to promote my reader to go out and practice sorcery! Look at C.S. Lewis; he was a devout Christian but used magic in his stories. But his stories were also a metaphor for Christ.

I feel somewhat conflicted about writing fantasy. I love mythology and fantasy and in all of my fantasy novels (nearly all of them) they are heavily involved with pantheons that I created and magic systems and lots of war and violence. My stories aren't necessarily a metaphor for God such as Lewis's were. But I know that these things are purely fictional. They aren't real! I write these stories for entertainment purposes only. 

This is my take on it: Alcohol is fine, just don't become drunk. Money is fine, just don't become greedy. Fantasy literature is fine, just don't lose sight of what is real. It's all about self-control. Jesus Himself drank wine, but he didn't become drunk. I write these novels that involve imaginary gods and magic but I know that they aren't real and am not trying to convince my readers that they are.

I have prayed hard about this for days. It is always on my mind. My stories have angels and demons and gods and divine figures and magic but in no way am I (intentionally) trying to denounce Jesus. LOTR was written by a Christian and it has a lot of "darkness" in it but in the end, good triumphs. Not all of mine end that way where everything is fine and dandy. The one story is about a renegade god that actually brings about the complete destruction of the world. Has anyone else had this issue? There is no definitive answer to this. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you can not write fantasy literature. I think it comes down to what I think God is trying to tell me. But I have been really struggling with this.


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## ThinkerX (Aug 7, 2012)

This is an issue I looked into for different reasons.

Put simply, all of the miracles attributed to Jesus, without exception, were in the popular mind of the day, considered to be within the capability of a competent pagan or jewish magician.

In terms of magical ability, the old line Egyptians and Babylonians (and their successors) were considered to be the flat out best (most competent) magicians.  'Magi' - aka 'magician' is a term we get from...well, call it Persia.  But the jewish rabbi's were no slouch in that department either; a couple of them, contemporaries of Jesus no less, were also credited with ressurecting the dead, among other miracles.

At the outset, christianity was viewed by the Roman Authorities - when they thought of it at all - as a sort of magical cult, and was legally treated in those terms. 

The stigmatazation of magic didn't occur until later, for rather obvious reasons - a magic using prophet turning up out of nowhere was a threat to the church heirarchy.  Eventually, magic using priests within the heirarchy also came to be seen as problems - unless they were saints.

The overall idea, for a long, long while, was that magic was forbidden to everybody *except* the priests (in Judaism at least). Initially, this mentality carried over into christianity.


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## TWErvin2 (Aug 7, 2012)

I too am a Christian, firm in my beliefs. They are often reflected in my stories.
I too, write fantasy. Your question was a question that occurred to me. I prayed and spoke with my pastor, and moved forward with writing and finding a publisher and getting published.

I will focus on my novels, but much the same can be applied to my short stories published.

My works involve themes such as good vs. evil, where loyalty, friendship and faith are a part of the mix. The language and content are reflected in my beliefs, thus there are not any F bombs and erotica-like sex scenes (actually there are no sex scenes--it's just not what I write and not part of the plot).

I have had one person in my church provide a list of Bible passages and attempt to disuade me writing/having my work published because one of the good guys was a wizard/sorcerer type. While I listened and respected her opinion, I did not agree.

It is a decision you have to be comfortable with. In truth, there are plenty of genres other than fantasy that you could write, and even some subgenres of fantasy that you could write.

For me, my writing is stories told for entertainment. They pretend to be nothing else, and I do not pretend them to be anything else. In truth, with Flank Hawk, there is a positive faith message contained as a sub-plot. It's just part of the story being told.

As you said, there is no definitive answer, only the one that works for you, just as there was one answer that worked for me.

Continue to pray. Confide and discuss it with those who you respect and trust for additional insight. Then move forward, whatever direction you are led.


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## danr62 (Aug 7, 2012)

I agree with Terry. C.S. Lewis was my introduction to fantasy and to reading in general. As a Christian, I don't see anything wrong with writing stories that have magical or pagan elements.


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## Androxine Vortex (Aug 7, 2012)

TWErvin2 said:


> I too am a Christian, firm in my beliefs. They are often reflected in my stories.
> I too, write fantasy. Your question was a question that occurred to me. I prayed and spoke with my pastor, and moved forward with writing and finding a publisher and getting published.
> 
> I will focus on my novels, but much the same can be applied to my short stories published.
> ...



And even though they involve angels and demons, not once do I EVER directly mention Jesus. So there is NO connection between my works and the Bible. I do agree that it has to be something that I am comfortable with. I do feel comfortable with it but every so often I keep asking myself again. I don't involve my stories with unnecessary profanity or erotica at all either, just lots of violence like in LOTR. 

I discussed this with my mother and she said that she watches Harry Potter and LOTR and loves them even though they involve magic. She is a strong Christian and she said that it is something that I have to discover myself with God. I kind of already knew that no one here could really give me a definite answer because the Scripture isn't clear about it. I just wanted to see if anyone else had this problem.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Aug 7, 2012)

In general, there's nothing wrong with writing stories containing characters who believe things different than you. In fact it's pretty boring when a book only contains characters who are author surrogates (or worse, straw men).

I don't personally believe in the existence of any deities, but my fiction frequently contains characters who do--because that's the world they grew up in. (It would be difficult to write a fantasy world full of nothing but atheists.) As far as they're concerned, the Caretaker (for example) is real and is running things. It's interesting to explore how characters behave and process things based on that, even though I don't think remotely the same way they do.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Aug 7, 2012)

At the risk of entering a religious debate (which I will not respond to) I say one thing.

Understand that the bible we know in modern times is very different from the many different texts that revolved around early Christianity. It was the emperor Constantine that brought together the leaders of many different opposing sects of Christianity together to form the Council of Nicea. There, these men argued & debated, to decide what books were divine and which would be excluded from the bible. Since that time it has gone through many revisions and translations. Who knows what was said about magic in those texts as we don't really know all of them that were excluded.

My point is only this, make any decisions based off your personal relationship with whatever God or Gods you serve and be comfortable with your own belief.

Another point, killing is a considered a sin. Would that keep you from writing a crime story where someone is murdered? So why is magic different?

For myself, I am not religious but I fully support people's personal spiritual beliefs & needs.


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## Devor (Aug 7, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> There is no definitive answer to this. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you can not write fantasy literature. I think it comes down to what I think God is trying to tell me. But I have been really struggling with this.



Google a book called _Orthodoxy_ by G. K. Chesterton and look up the chapter labeled _The Ethics of Elfland_.  It will help.


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## Shockley (Aug 7, 2012)

Not being a Christian (UU, at this point in my life) but someone who has spent a whole lot of time studying the Semites and related peoples, I can only say this:

 There is magic in the Bible. A lot of it. Some of it is condemned (when Saul has the Witch of Endor bring up the ghost of Samuel) and some of it is ordained directly (the destruction of the walls of Jericho). Seeing it just requires a particularly broad definition of magic.


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## Jabrosky (Aug 7, 2012)

If I were God, I wouldn't mind my worshipers writing fiction set in worlds where I didn't exist and "pagan" magic was everywhere. It's only fiction after all.


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## Lorna (Aug 8, 2012)

I'm from a different religious background- I practice druidry, but have also been confronted with certain 'questions of faith'.  

I've questioned the legitimacy of writing fantasy because it has no connection to my local land, its gods, my ancestors or the community. This was one of a number of reasons I gave up writing my fantasy novel for a while to focus on poems and stories about my local area. It was a shamanic experience combined with my feeling of incompleteness that led me back to making the commitment to completing my novel. 

In druidry we believe in 'Awen' 'divine inspiration.' I've been spending alot of time meditating on the nature of Awen, which I've come to learn flows through all of nature, humans, their creations and into fantasy worlds. I don't know very much about Christianity, but this might be a but like the holy spirit? A few weeks ago I came across the term 'anti-Awen' in a book. Because my novel is quite dark, I began to think 'what if I'm channeling anti-Awen?' I've put this doubt aside as even if that's the case, it's still a part of the divine whole. 

I think it's important to work with what you're inspired to write because inspiration flows from a divine source, whatever religious tradition you're from. 

Another way I've thought about is, if writing my fantasy novel was wrong, wouldn't the gods have shown their disapproval. When I've consulted them, they've been encouraging, even though I'm writing about something that's got nothing to do with them and their land. In the same way, if Jesus disapproved wouldn't he let you know? I'm not sure whether it's a practice in Christianity to communicate directly with God and Jesus, but if it is why don't you ask them for their opinions?


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## Penpilot (Aug 8, 2012)

If something brings you and others joy and harms no one else, why would it be wrong? Like others have said, make this decision based on your own relationship with God, not what someone else tells you it should be. I think if God has anything to say on the subject, he'll say it to you directly not through someone else.


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## The Dark One (Aug 8, 2012)

Dear Androxine

I think that just by asking your question on this forum you are asking for some alternative input. The trouble is, religious debates (I understand) are forbidden. Indeed, on one interpretation I might even suggest that the moderators should have banned your question for fear of the responses it might have inspired.

Nevertheless, you pose an interesting question. On a different thread (can't remember which one) I speculated about this very question. I've long wondered how people of commited monotheistic persuasion could possibly accommodate fantasy/magic within their personal cosmology - not so much because two belief systems (one personally held, one personally invented) might be inconsistent - but because of what they have in common. The instant you acknowledge one form of supernature as fictional - for whatever reason - it must logically expose all forms of supernature to the same charge of potential fictionality. In other words, the age-old question of faith.

The moderators might regard even this polite attempt to engage with your question as out of bounds, which would be a shame. You asked the question on the forum so no doubt you're prepared for some robust responses. Surely we can discuss these subjects without getting offensive?


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## Androxine Vortex (Aug 8, 2012)

The Dark One said:


> Dear Androxine
> 
> I think that just by asking your question on this forum you are asking for some alternative input. The trouble is, religious debates (I understand) are forbidden. Indeed, on one interpretation I might even suggest that the moderators should have banned your question for fear of the responses it might have inspired.
> 
> ...



I don't believe I am violating any terms of service with this thread (http://mythicscribes.com/forums/news-announcements/2101-guidelines-discussing-religion.html)
I am pretty sure that most of us here are adults (and if not then I'm sure you can be mature) Like Lorna; we have different beliefs but she responded to this thread to genuinely help me. And just because she believes something that I necessarily don't, I'm not going to just dismiss anything she says. You have free will to say or do anything you want. 

Like I said before, I'm not coming here asking anyone for "the answer." This is a completely personal decision and experience. I just wanted to see if others have had this problem.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 8, 2012)

Good topic of conversation.

I know that there are a lot of ultra conservatives who think Harry Potter is "evil" because it involves witchcraft.  In my view, these people are quite misguided.  Be careful of those who want to use Christianity to control your actions.  Some people just want to be able to tell other people what to do, and they use Christianity for that purpose.

The underlying question, however, is valid.  Are we, as Christians, defying a Bible edict by portraying magic use in books?

My understanding, and I'm not saying I'm an ultimate authority on the Bible, is that the passages in question are a warning to stay away from the occult.  The Bible states that there are things involving demons and other powers that we do not understand and are meant to stay away from.  Would it be against Christian values to portray the pursuit of the occult in a positive light?  I think so.  Would it be against Christian values to portray the pursuit of the occult in a book if the matter were handled in a way highlighting the dangers?  I think you're good on that one.

However, in our fantasy writing, our "magic" systems have nothing to do with the occult.  We are creating a completely different world.  The magic is something that exists only in our minds in the fantasy world we create.  There's no difference in creating a fantasy world with magic and creating a scifi world with technology so advanced that we can't understand its functioning.

In this case, I think we're not breaking any of the intent of the Bible.

That's my theory.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 8, 2012)

> I've long wondered how people of commited monotheistic persuasion could possibly accommodate fantasy/magic within their personal cosmology - not so much because two belief systems (one personally held, one personally invented) might be inconsistent - but because of what they have in common. The instant you acknowledge one form of supernature as fictional - for whatever reason - it must logically expose all forms of supernature to the same charge of potential fictionality.



I hope we're not violating any terms of service with this discussion.  I would think that, as long as we keep the discussion abstract, we would be okay (discuss belief in general instead of a particular belief).  If I'm out of line in that thinking, I apologize.  Believe me, I have absolutely no desire to get into a heavy religious debate on a fantasy fiction writing forum unless it involves the actual creation of a fantasy religion for a story.  

Your question is an interesting one, however.

Though I understand your point, I don't quite follow your logic.

We live on the planet Earth.  If I write a scifi story about a planet of my imagining called jtw4ioe, the fact that I imagined a planet does not invalidate the existance of the, presumably, real planet on which we live.  

Before you object strenuously, I do understand that religion is different.  However, there's no difference from me making up a religion for my fantasy world and the fact that there are a bunch of religious beliefs currently in existence in the real world.  It's just as easy for me to reject my fantasy religion as it is for me to reject all but one here on Earth.

You specifically say that it must expose my belief to the same charge of potential fictionality.  I think, possibly, you may be misunderstanding the nature of belief.  The whole point of faith is that there is the question of potential fictionality.  If there were no question, then faith wouldn't be required.  How does the creation of a fictional religion alter the equation at all?  People who believe in a particular religion have weighed that potential fictionality and came down on the side that the religion is a fact.

Edit: re-reading this made me chuckle as I remembered the babblefish in Hitchhiker's Guide.  If you'll remember: the existence of the fish made half the population argue that it proved God's existence and the other half argue that the existence of such proof disproved Him.


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## Steerpike (Aug 8, 2012)

A point of view from a non-Christian.

First, I think it is important to remember that you, the author, are not necessarily an advocate for the things that happen in your story. However, my understanding is that Christians are also meant at all times to be an example to others, so from a Christian perspective, maybe an author is seen as advocate. In the latter case, two possibilities:

1. I've read opinions that something like Narnia differs from Potter in that the former is another world, where magic is part of the normal order, while the latter takes place in our world and shows magic in a positive light in our world. The opinion I read stated that this made Potter wrong, from a Christian point of view, but works like Narnia, LOTR, and the like were OK from a Christian point of view because they don't purport to support or show in a good light magic taking place in our world; and

2. You can simply make those practicing magic to be the bad guys. In Narnia, for example, who uses magic apart from Aslan (who is divine?). The White Witch. And she is evil. In later books, Lucy gets in trouble for using it, and the guy in The Magician's Nephew doesn't exactly bring about good things with it. So it seems like Lewis draws a pretty clear dividing line and it is this: magic is not for humans to use. Maybe I'm misremembering how it goes - if so let me know.


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## Black Dragon (Aug 8, 2012)

Hey guys,

Discussing religion is not off limits here.  As long as the discussion is carried out in a spirit of mutual respect and genuine inquiry, it's perfectly fine.

I think that some people are confusing our policy on religion with our ban on contemporary political debate.  Now that topic is off-limits.


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## Mindfire (Aug 8, 2012)

Being a Christian, I think I'll chip in here.

Yes, magic is prohibited in the Bible. There's no way around it. But have you given thought as to _why_ it's prohibited? Because once you do, the relationship between Christianity and magic/fantasy becomes quite clear. If you look at the works of CS Lewis and Tolkien, their stories are fantasy stories but they are not _occult_ stories. Any occultic elements they may contain are merely artifacts of the lore and myth that they used as raw material for making their own stories and worlds. 

What's more, their stories are not about the occult or real-world sorcery at all. They're about other worlds. This changes quite a bit. Tolkien and Lewis both said that their works were not allegory, but rather sort of speculative, speaking to the question of "how might God operate in other worlds and dimensions?" 

That brings us back to the question, "why does the Bible speak against magic?" If you look very closely, it becomes obvious that the magic the Bible condemns is linked to one of two things: pagan worship (bad for obvious reasons) and involvement of demonic sprits (bad for even more obvious reasons). In our world, the things termed "magic" and "sorcery" are inherently dangerous to the human soul because they put you into contact with powers and spirits that seek your eternal destruction. 

However, who says that this must be the case in _other worlds_? Why should God have to do things the same way all the time? In our world, magic of the kind we see in LOTR or Narnia doesn't really exist and the occult is merely a way for people to console themselves with the illusion of having power when in reality they are being manipulated by powers themselves. But in _other worlds_, like Middle Earth and Narnia, magic and wonder is woven into the very fabric of the world. In those places God, using either the name Eru Illuvatar or Aslan, has created a world in which real, true, and magical things do exist. And because they exist in that sense, because magic is written into the very genetic code of those worlds, using it is no more wrong than it is for us to harness electricity or use cell phones in ours.

Do you see the difference?

TL;DR- I agree with BWFoster.


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## ShortHair (Aug 8, 2012)

I see no conflict between fantasy and Christianity. Humans worshiped all sorts of deities before the coming of Jesus. Whether those deities actually existed is irrelevant. The God of Abraham is all powerful, whatever name He is known by. He can exist in any universe you create, even if some of the inhabitants aren't yet aware of His existence.

That's the way the Flying Spaghetti Monster explained it to me, anyway.


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## Mindfire (Aug 8, 2012)

The Dark One said:


> I've long wondered how people of commited monotheistic persuasion could possibly accommodate fantasy/magic within their personal cosmology - not so much because two belief systems (one personally held, one personally invented) might be inconsistent - but because of what they have in common. The instant you acknowledge one form of supernature as fictional - for whatever reason - it must logically expose all forms of supernature to the same charge of potential fictionality. In other words, the age-old question of faith.



Again, I'm going to echo Foster's words on this, but I'll add the following. 

The belief systems in my alternate world have quite a bit in common with Judeo-Christianity. Which is (for me) rather the point. My imagination has one limitation and one only: I cannot imagine a universe in which God does not exist. It would be dishonest to say that I am absolutely incapable of it, but I haven't tried very hard nor do I wish to. So when I create another world I ask myself, "how does the supernatural come into it?" "What are the 'rules' here?" "How would God choose to reveal himself?" I think Lewis and Tolkien asked similar questions. 

Now I'm not going to turn my books into sermons. That would be neither fun to write nor read. But I believe that if a writer goes on long enough, their views about the world _will _inevitably show up in the work. How well they disguise it depends on the writer's level of skill. As a Christian this is more so because my faith is _supposed_ to seep into every part of my being including my writing. The Bible says everything ought be done to the glory of God. Again, I'm not using my work as a soapbox. But in a sense, I see my writing as another way of practicing my faith.


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## shangrila (Aug 8, 2012)

I hope this doesn't sound rude, but I don't understand what the issue is.

You're a Christian. That's fine. I'm not, and to each his own. But that doesn't mean you have to project your beliefs into your stories unless that's what you're specifically aiming to do. It's called fiction for a reason; it's not real. If you had, say, gone out to do some sort of occult thing physically, or wrote a book about how great the devil is or what not, I could understand a conflict with your faith. But as it stands I can't see anything wrong with writing fiction regardless of faith. 

And honestly, while I might get flak for this, but if your god has a problem with you expressing yourself creatively, they aren't worth following.


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## danr62 (Aug 8, 2012)

I don't think it really matters whether the story involves the occult or takes place in our world. I'm a Christian. I also read The Dresden Files, which takes place in the modern world, in Chicago, and involves a lot of occult and pagan ideas in regards to magic and religion. But, for a non-Christian, Butcher also comes awfully close to some Christian themes in his books.

Some Christians who read fantasy probably wouldn't want to read these books because of some of the things they contain. I don't have a problem with it, myself, because I know it's a story, meant for entertainment. I'm not about to go out and start drawing magical circles to summon spirits or anything like that. It's purely speculative fiction. 

Now, if I were to start reading real spellbooks and trying the spells in those, that would be a different issue altogether.


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## Ankari (Aug 8, 2012)

> And honestly, while I might get flak for this, but if your god has a problem with you expressing yourself creatively, they aren't worth following



That is such an odd statement.  Every religion, whether "real" (from this world) or fictitious (you make up) has a problem with _something._  Even if you are not a religious person, your moral code prohibits _something._  Even if you're not a moral person, the country you live in prohibits _something._  Do we forsake our moral codes and country because they espouse prohibitions that we may disagree?

And just to give an example: It is wrong for a person to express his freedom of speech by mutilating his naked body in public.  That is an expression of creativity.  But it violates many moral and government laws.

I wouldn't make blanket statements like that.


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## Mindfire (Aug 8, 2012)

danr62 said:


> I don't think it really matters whether the story involves the occult or takes place in our world. I'm a Christian. I also read The Dresden Files, which takes place in the modern world, in Chicago, and involves a lot of occult and pagan ideas in regards to magic and religion. But, for a non-Christian, Butcher also comes awfully close to some Christian themes in his books.
> 
> Some Christians who read fantasy probably wouldn't want to read these books because of some of the things they contain. I don't have a problem with it, myself, because I know it's a story, meant for entertainment. I'm not about to go out and start drawing magical circles to summon spirits or anything like that. It's purely speculative fiction.
> 
> Now, if I were to start reading real spellbooks and trying the spells in those, that would be a different issue altogether.



Well, I think it should also be noted that this is one of those areas in which the rule of Conscience is paramount. If my conscience troubles me about Harry Potter or Dresden, I would do well to keep away from them. If your conscience does not trouble you about it, I will trust you to look after your own affairs while I look after mine.

Incidently, I've read Butcher's Alera books, which sparked some curiosity about the Dresden Files. Wikipedia summaries seem promising, and I agree there are some vaguely Christian themes in there. This may cause me to revise my view of Harry Potter. While a distinction between Potter and Narnia or LOTR is obvious, a distinction between Potter and Dresden seems arbitrary. I'll have to give it thought.


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## Steerpike (Aug 8, 2012)

I think you are right, Mindfire. I do know Christians who won't read either Potter or Dresden, and the reason is that they show the good guys using what they consider occult-type magical powers. 

If your conscience doesn't bother you about Dresden, I'd give them a shot. I've heard they are even better than the Alera books, but I haven't read the Alera books so I can't say for sure. 

I don't know that it does much good to speculate as to which god or gods exist, or which are fictional, or whether any of the same are worthy of worship. The OPs question is presented from the point of view of a person who does have a belief system, and it seems to me the helpful answers will start with the premise that the belief system is correct and then attempt to help the OP through the dilemma from that starting point. I'd look at it like this: given the stated belief system of the OP, and the concerns expressed by the OP, what is the best way to address the issue of fantasy and magic within that context?


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## Black Dragon (Aug 8, 2012)

Androxine,

I'm really glad that you raised this issue.  I've written a blog post in response to your question:

Should Christians Write Fantasy?

I'd love to discuss this with you further.


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## Black Dragon (Aug 8, 2012)

Everyone,

This has been a great discussion thus far.  Many of your points have inspired me to pursue this topic further.  

Thanks for being such a great group!


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## T.Allen.Smith (Aug 8, 2012)

Mindfire said:
			
		

> Yes, magic is prohibited in the Bible. There's no way around it....
> 
> ....it becomes obvious that the magic the Bible condemns is linked to one of two things: pagan worship (bad for obvious reasons) and involvement of demonic sprits (bad for even more obvious reasons). In our world, the things termed "magic" and "sorcery" are inherently dangerous to the human soul because they put you into contact with powers and spirits that seek your eternal destruction.



This depends entirely on your definition of magic. A previous poster stated that the bible is chock full of magic & I would agree with that. Moses parting the red sea or his actions against the Egyptian oppressors for example. Divinely inspired according to the tale but I'm certain it would look like magic if you had witnessed it yourself (or received the business end).

If it truly bothers you though, there's nothing wrong with portraying that belief, that concern, in your writing. In fact, it may be very interesting to read a story where God has influence in the real world (like he did through Moses) but condemns the use of occult sorcery. 

Even the non-religious may find that perspective intriguing. I would.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 8, 2012)

shangrila said:


> I hope this doesn't sound rude, but I don't understand what the issue is.
> 
> You're a Christian. That's fine. I'm not, and to each his own. But that doesn't mean you have to project your beliefs into your stories unless that's what you're specifically aiming to do. It's called fiction for a reason; it's not real. If you had, say, gone out to do some sort of occult thing physically, or wrote a book about how great the devil is or what not, I could understand a conflict with your faith. But as it stands I can't see anything wrong with writing fiction regardless of faith.
> 
> And honestly, while I might get flak for this, but if your god has a problem with you expressing yourself creatively, they aren't worth following.



Shangrila,

I think the issue is one of seeking input on a highly personal matter of ethics and morality.  Each person develops their own compass as to what's right or wrong, but, sometimes, it's helpful to pursue outside opinions.  This is what the OP seems to be doing.

Since the OP is a Christian, his moral compass is greatly influenced by the Bible.  The Bible, which can be difficult to interpret, states that you should avoid magic.  The OP wants some additional opinions on whether or not this Biblical prohibition should be applied to his writing fantasy.


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## ScipioSmith (Aug 8, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> This depends entirely on your definition of magic. A previous poster stated that the bible is chock full of magic & I would agree with that. Moses parting the red sea or his actions against the Egyptian oppressors for example. Divinely inspired according to the tale but I'm certain it would look like magic if you had witnessed it yourself (or received the business end).
> 
> If it truly bothers you though, there's nothing wrong with portraying that belief, that concern, in your writing. In fact, it may be very interesting to read a story where God has influence in the real world (like he did through Moses) but condemns the use of occult sorcery.
> 
> Even the non-religious may find that perspective intriguing. I would.



Indeed. Unfortunately, stories like that tend to devolve into eeevil priests standing in the heroes way and a lot of strawmanning. 

To answer the main question: I'm a Christian, though I wouldn't presume to claim to be as armourclad in my faith as some here. To me, the important thing to remember is that in fiction everything is to some extent a metaphor. People have been mentioning Harry Potter, but in HP the magic is just a vehicle for a story about love, friendship and the need for tolerance. 

You've already said that the message of your book is not 'Sorcery is Rad!' I don't know what the message of your story is, but so long as it isn't anything monstrous then I'd hope a God who loved us enough to send his only son to die would understand.


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## Devor (Aug 8, 2012)

Whatever Christianity teaches about magic, it also teaches you not to break your conscience, but to educate it instead.  You need to figure what you're comfortable with.

I think you should think more about why magic is forbidden and whether those reasons apply to fictional writings.  In my opinion, they don't, and fantasy should be judged like anything else - by its character, by whoch I mean the themes and messages it expresses.  Even then, it's more about your attitude as a writer, and a person's attitude as a reader, than anything else.


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## Christopher Wright (Aug 8, 2012)

Consider, if you will, a story that deals with someone being able to fly.

People can't fly in real life. If you tried to fly you'd wind up hurting yourself, possibly killing yourself. But you can read a story about flying and enjoy it, and--assuming you're not suffering from specific mental health issues--never run the risk of convincing yourself that you can, in fact, fly. You know the book is just a story, and you are not placing yourself in danger by reading the story.

Trying to fly and failing spectacularly is a physical danger. For a Christian, there are spirtual dangers as well--but again, when you're reading a work of fiction, you know the difference between what is real and what is not. You can read a book--or write a book!--with gods, and magic, and things that in this world are not in line with the way we're taught things are, because you know that the book isn't real.

You can read about flying and know not to try flying in real life. You can read about Elric killing people in the name of Arioch the chaos-god and know not to kill people or worship chaos-gods in real life too. 

I mean, it's silly when you say it out loud, but that's the crux of it. The people who frown at fantasy because it's "evil" are afraid that they won't be able to distinguish fantasy from reality. They're usually the same people who believe that Dungeons and Dragons will make you kill yourself, and who believe that playing World of Warcraft will damage your soul.[1]

The thing is, if you know something is fiction, it's fiction. End of story. I wrote a novel featuring a two and a half meter hyperintelligent bug with three prehensile tails, but I don't believe they actually exist.

So basically what I'm trying to say is, I think you're OK. 

=======
[1] They may actually be right about that one. I kid, I kid!


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## Sheilawisz (Aug 8, 2012)

I know some Christian people that hate Fantasy in general and especially the Harry Potter series, but not all of them are like that. Many Christians know that Tolkien himself was deeply Catholic, C.S. Lewis was as well... and just take a look at the huge impact that they had to completely change the world of Fantasy literature.

The Bible speaks against Magic, but not in the way that many people imagine: Christianity in those times was against Pagan religions, rituals and human sacrifice, which is what the Bible refers to in those parts. They did not have in mind stories like Harry Potter or the many different styles of Magic that are described in Fantasy stories today.

Religion and Fantasy are two very different things, both are beautiful and part of human life and I see no reason for a conflict to exist between them.


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## danr62 (Aug 8, 2012)

Christopher Wright said:


> They're usually the same people who believe that Dungeons and Dragons will make you kill yourself, and who believe that playing World of Warcraft will damage your soul.[1]
> 
> =======
> [1] They may actually be right about that one. I kid, I kid!



Not the soul, just the brain.


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## Androxine Vortex (Aug 8, 2012)

I really did not expect this thread to get so much attention! First off let me thank all of the members who have contributed to this topic!

Earlier today I got home from work and had a pretty stressful day. So I said, "I'm going to play Skyrim for twenty minutes just to unwind and relax." So I began playing and was running around shooting all the guards in the knees (lol) and then I started comparing my video game to my novel. I am running around shooting people in their knees with arrows. But would I do this in real life? While hypothetically speaking it would be funny but the answer is an obvious, no. I play as a Dunmer (Dark Elf) and use magic. Would I use "magic" in real life? No. So I think this can be related to my novel. Like I said before, my novel involves magic. Am I trying to persuade my readers to practice occult magic? Of course not. My mother lent me her copy of "Finding God in Harry Potter" and I highly recommend it to all of you, even if you are not Christian!

Right now, I feel that it is comfortable for me to continue writing fantasy and still stay true to my Faith. I think that's why it is called "faith." Lots of times, there isn't proof or an answer, but I have this faith that I hold onto regardless. I may write stories that involve pantheons of deities that I created but I know them all to be imaginary. I know that they are purely 100% fictional. This goes back to my point about having control. I think that drinking alcohol is fine, just don't go overboard and become drunk. I think that money is fine, just don't become greedy for wealth. If you look at those two examples, they both involve self control. Someone can drink and have enough self control to tell themselves to stop. I think this applies to fantasy literature. You can like something that isn't real and was invented to entertain (movies, books, video games, etc.) but have enough control to not become obsessed over it and lose sight of what is real. If you read Harry Potter and then go out and try to split your soul up and store it in horcruxes then I highly suggest you reconsider!

I have had lots of time to think about this. It's a difficult subject (for me) to approach. In my stories, I try to make sure that they stay away from my beliefs. As in, I wouldn't write a story about Jesus forming a rock n' roll band. I think that would be crossing a line. Now if I wrote a story about a god I invented named Hoggard who made a rock band it would be fine. See the difference? I'm keeping my Faith and my fiction separate. I think this topic was so difficult for me in the beginning because my stories are heavily influenced/involved with magic and (created) deities. My stories have a lot of dark and grim elements in them and sometimes it's not always the good guys that win. But this doesn't mean that I believe in all of those things and am trying to promote them. One of the MC in my novel is actually a god-hating (not my God!) sorcerer that tries to bring about the destruction of Heaven. But that is just a character for my story. And that's it, it's just a (fictional) story. The characteristics of my characters don't really represent mine. My one character is terrified of the ocean. Am I? No. I love swimming in the ocean.

After long consideration and strong discussions with my mother (whom I would say I am closest to and is a strong Christian) I have decided that I will continue to pursue my dream of becoming a fantasy novel author.

EDIT: Black Dragon, I read your article but haven't registered to leave comments. I feel flattered that you were inspired to write an article over something that I posted here. I am glad to hear that you are pleased with this thread. I too am happy to read all of these posts. Not all of them I may agree 100% with but I have enough decency to respect their views, just as they have mine. I appreciate that you have written an article about this and have already "liked" it on Facebook 

And a special thanks to everyone else who has responded to this and has been polite and mature about it. Thank you.


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## shangrila (Aug 9, 2012)

Ankari said:


> That is such an odd statement.  Every religion, whether "real" (from this world) or fictitious (you make up) has a problem with _something._  Even if you are not a religious person, your moral code prohibits _something._  Even if you're not a moral person, the country you live in prohibits _something._  Do we forsake our moral codes and country because they espouse prohibitions that we may disagree?
> 
> And just to give an example: It is wrong for a person to express his freedom of speech by mutilating his naked body in public.  That is an expression of creativity.  But it violates many moral and government laws.
> 
> I wouldn't make blanket statements like that.


I didn't think I needed to put it in, since I thought it was obvious, but my comment was based purely in the context of what we're talking about; i.e. your god having a problem with you writing fictional works because he doesn't want people to be practicing magic in real life.

Obviously there are lines to draw, but when it comes to something harmless and, ultimately, personal, I don't really see where religion comes into it.

But that's just me. As I've pointed out, I'm not religious, so perhaps I struggle to see how it could affect someone like this.


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## shangrila (Aug 9, 2012)

I'll also add that it's great to hear you're going to continue writing Androxine.


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## Zophos (Aug 9, 2012)

First off, I'm non-religious, so feel free to completely disregard my opinion, but: 

I think this very topic is addressed in the Bible. In Corinthians, Paul talks about not eating meat if it causes his brother to stumble. That draws, likely indirectly, but in a similar enough fashion that is reflective of the ethic, from a verse in Proverbs IIRC that is somewhat more fatalistic and addresses those who lead the upright astray falling into their own pit. Christ, himself is more specific in Mark when he talks about leading children (perhaps figuratively speaking of the Body of Christ vice actual kinderkin) to sin. 

I think there is certainly justification for a belief that writing about magic could be counter to the Christian ethic. It really boils down to the personal decision (though some might regard it as an edict or canonical imperative) of how literally you should take the Bible. If you believe that a 15 cubit wall of water once covered the earth, then I think I could probably guess where you'd come out on the topic of whether you should let your children read Harry Potter books. 

The point of that example is not to regard or disregard it as factually or even logically based. The point of that example is there are personal decisions you face every day in faith and life that could lead others astray if they interpret the results incorrectly. Wearing certain clothing, eating certain foods, whispering to your spouse during mass, making eye contact with someone else's spouse during mass, slapping your kids on the rear, not slapping your kids on the rear, any number of things "could" lead others astray. In point of fact and practicality, you often don't have time to deeply consider some of those decisions and they are a reflection of who you really are. That, as simple as it may sound, is really the bottom line in all of this.


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## JBryden88 (Aug 9, 2012)

This is a topic I pondered on as I went to bed.

A little bit of background:
My family is very Catholic. I went to a Catholic Elementry/Middleschool, and my Freshmen Year of High School was a Catholic School. (And honestly? Those were my favorite years in school, ironically considering how I feel about religion these days.)

These days however, I wouldn't call myself Catholic, Christian, or any "established faith." I tend to have a rather broad view. All the major religions past and present have several of the same traits.

- Whether one or many deities, most religions have many of the same concepts. Treating folks how you want to be treated, living your live to its fullest, respecting your neighbor, and so on.

- Most of these deities have an enemy. That enemy could be Satan, any number of demonic figures, they could be ice giants (Norse,) they could be anything. This enemy is usually the personification of evil or wrong stemming from the society they come from. This evil tries to seduce and turn man on said deities.

- Most of these religions have an afterlife. Heaven. Valhalla. Some eternal place where the good people go, and some bad place for the worst kinds of people.

- And many of these religions have some sort of book or story to go along with them. Bible. Quoran. Kaballah. In the case of Norse? Poems and sagas.

So, my views basically stem that whatever is out there is too big to comprehend, and one should just live their lives to their fullest and enjoy it.

So I guess my view comes down to this:

Storytelling is a gift and a curse. If you limit yourself based on a moral code stemming from religion or what not, you're possibly hindering your gift. If you go all out, but are a very firm believer, you might be hurting your own spiritual health. It's a double edged sword, and one that can be walked perfectly if you find your way.


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## psychotick (Aug 11, 2012)

Hi,

From memory the most anti-magic bit in the bible is the part about not suffering a witch to live. But in this part of the OT it was largely talking about pagan worship.

As for the rest, I think you have to ask yourself a few questions. Are you writing purely to entertain? Or are you writing to secretely convince people that magic is real and that by uttering a few trite phrases with their fingers waving they can do amazing things? I can see where the latter might go against the spirit of Christianity, but not the former.

And if in doubt you can return to the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. In this case an example of the former would be reading fairy tales to amuse a child but not to convince them that monsters are real, (that would be quite nice), and the latter would be telling lies with the intent of deception (I don't like lying and I don't like being lied to). So though your books are fiction, are they intended to deceive?

Personally I write fantasy as well as sci fi, and I'm a believer. But I don't expect anyone to take my books as anything more than they are, a simple tale to be read for enjoyment.

Hope that helps.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Aug 11, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> This problem has been bugging me the past few days and I wanted to share it with you and maybe get some help. This is a very personal and religious issue so please be respectful of my beliefs.
> 
> I am a Christian. I have been one for a long time. I have asked Jesus to be my Savior and for Him to forgive my sins. I also love writing. Ever since I could first read and write I made my own books and stories. It has always been my favorite hobby my entire life.
> 
> ...



Well, I guess it comes down to finding an approach to portraying magic that you feel comfortable with. I don't see why you should worry about simply writing about it - I think it's safe to say an omniscient creator diety is probably capable of grasping the concept of fantasy literature. On the other hand, if you believe encouraging the practice of magic is wrong (in real life, I mean) then I can see why this would worry you. Still, I don't think there's any harm in letting your own faith influence your writing so long as you don't get preachy about it. 

CS Lewis is a good example - he seems to have been a pretty reasonable fellow. Going by my impression of him, I think he would probably have argued that magic is not itself evil, but rather humans are too flawed and easily tempted to be trusted with such power, and if God prohibits magic, he does so out of concern. Note that in the Narnia books, magic is presented either as divine miracles (Aslan's powers), something the bad guys do (the White Witch, and witches in general) or something that can be useful, but also very dangerous and tempting. (Lucy finding the Magician's Book.)

Me, I'm an agnostic, but I think faith is generally something nice when not taken to extremes. As such, I tend to present religion as something generally positive in my stories, but I dislike giving divine beings an obvious and definitive presence. Rather, I find it more interesting to explore the importance of faith itself and how religion fits into a society.


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## SlimShady (Aug 11, 2012)

Well, I'm sort of a religious mutt.  At first I was Jewish with some Christian leanings, however eventually I discovered the Twelve Tribes of Israel (A Rastafari Movement) which has lots of teachings that I actually believe.

  As for magic in stories, go for it.  You have to remember that stories are entertainment.  Someone writing a book about serial killers doesn't mean they condone that sort of behavior.  Same thing with someone about magic.  You just have to remember that you are writing all of these purely for entertainment.  Anyone that would see Harry Potter or any type of magic in a *STORY* as sinning and against god are obviously misguided and just confused.  Just ignore people like that and do the things that make *YOU* happy.  

  If writing stories about different gods and magic makes you happy then do it.


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## Amanita (Aug 11, 2012)

I've been bothered by this back when I've been writing Harry Potter fanfiction as a teenager. I've been at the meetings of a rather strict Christian group at my school at the same time and felt quite guilty about my obession with these books. Looking back at this from my current perspective, I think so of it wasn't healthy but this had little to do with the magic contained in Harry Potter. I've spoken about it to another member of the group back then by the way and she agreed with many people here and said that she didn't mind people reading Harry Potter as long as they were able to tell the difference between truth and fiction. In case of the Harry Potter magic, it should be quite obvious that it's fictional and not real. In Harry Potter, the treatment of souls has bothered me much more than the magic itself. The books contain creatures called "dementors" who can consumme people's souls for example, no matter if those where innocent or not. This came in conflict with more fundamental aspects of my belief than the magic part. The same goes for the pseudo-religious themes during the ending. 

As far as the Bible passage calling for the death of witches goes, there are many different interpretations thereof and I'm not sure which one is the accurate one myself. The example of magic in the Bible I can think of now involves speaking to the dead.
Some people believe it's directed against everything called magic, those are the ones who start burning fantasy books. 
Other believe it's refering to specific kinds of magic that might be possible for humans to do in real life such as speaking to the dead or getting into contact with demons. This would surely be problmematic but I rarely see it used to sympathetic characters anyway. The same goes for any real-world occult rituals, symbols etc. Pagan rituals of any kind are another explanation I've seen here. 
Curses to destroy things or kill people are another possible explanation, some interpretations think of women dealing in poisonous substances and maybe abortion as well. Some feminist interpretations finally claim that the term "witch" was supposed to refer to any woman who was too independent or not obedient enough towards men. 

I'm not sure which of these interpretations if any is really true but I don't think it refers to the forms of magic common in fantasy which usually aren't anything different from other human abilites, either inborn or aquired through learning. As long as its clear that those kinds of abilities don't exist in real life, it should also be clear that the Bible wouldn't refer to them. 
I'm wondering if using a different term to make this distinction more obvious would help. Sometimes names are important and people might not associate your work with something that doesn't agree with your faith.  Some of the outrage against Harry Potter probably only existed because of terms like "witchcraft" while the people in question probably neve read the books. (And thus, didn't notice any other problems either.)


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## Akahige (Aug 13, 2012)

In the early church, St. Basil taught his students about the merits of Pagan literature and how they might see in it the virtue which pertained to the Christian life.  I think it may be similar with regards to the usage of magical elements in fictional worlds.  We might do well to resist any impulse to portray good as evil or evil as good, but this is true of any element, not just magical ones.

Likewise, I once heard a quote from an African poet whose name I sadly cannot recall.  He spoke of how within a society the stories we tell can make us sick, but they can also heal us.  I try to keep this in mind with what I write.  It is on some level entertainment, but not merely.  If a story is a means of conveyance for our souls, our character, our personalities and our ideologies, where might they be taking us?


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## Constantin (Mar 23, 2018)

I registered here specifically to reply to this thread, after having found it through a search engine when I looked up whether it is a sin to write fantasy novels as a Christian. For the past couple of years, I've been struggling with this issue too (as an aspiring writer). I have yet to publish or even finish any books yet, and considering my current religious crisis and my mental health issues (OCD and anxiety), I'm thinking about giving up on writing altogether.

I have read most of the New Testament and I have prayed about it several times, and it seems to be pretty black and white. Paul makes it clear in Romans 14:23 - "everything that does not come from faith is sin." I just can't get rid of the conviction that The Holy Spirit seems to be putting in me that writing fantasy is a sin.

Probably because of my severe OCD, I've went as far as to look for supernatural means through which I can get a clear yes or no answer from God: I've prayed and tossed a coin, which landed two times in a row on the side that was assigned to giving up on writing. Then I prayed again about whether God wants me to continue writing or not, and then opened the Bible at a random page and the first word I saw was "no". There's really not much else I can do except for continuing to ask God why He gave me literary talent and the desire to write if He doesn't want me to pursue a career in writing. There's not really much else I can do except write, draw and paint. I can't really hold a job because of my physical disabilities and my mental issues -- well, technically, I could, but nobody would hire me. At least not in my (second-world) country anyways.

The fact that people bring up C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien as examples of Christians who wrote fantasy is not very encouraging to me because not everyone who calls themselves a Christian actually does God's work, and the Bible is pretty clear about the fact that there are many fake/false Christians and teachers who twist The Gospel to suit their needs. The Bible says that we can recognize a true follower of Christ by their fruits ("Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" - Matthew 7:16). So, you can recognize people who follow God's Word by taking into account how their lives unfolded. Did God favor them and offer them a good life? Well, let's take a look at C.S. Lewis: after preaching for a couple of decades a lot of doctrines that some Christian denominations call heretical, he died at 65. It doesn't sound like he gathered a lot of grapes, now, does it?

I've recently started a new novel, one belonging to the realistic genre this time. No fantasy whatsoever. In fact, I intended to center it around Christian motifs and have one of my characters convert from atheism to Christianity after falling in love with a devout Christian, but I'm 15 pages into the novel and the feelings of guilt and conviction don't seem to allow me to make any progress.

Am at wit's end. We don't have spiritual counselors in my denomination (I'm an Eastern-Orthodox). We have only priests and they have very little idea about anything related to mental issues related to religion. I've tried seeing a psychologist for a few weeks, but it wasn't of any help and it was too expensive to continue. I just don't know what to do.


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## Black Dragon (Mar 23, 2018)

Hi Constantin, welcome to Mythic Scribes.

First, I wrote an article on this topic that you may find helpful:

Should Christians Write Fantasy?

I also want to respond to a few of your points.



Constantin said:


> Paul makes it clear in Romans 14:23 - "everything that does not come from faith is sin." I just can't get rid of the conviction that The Holy Spirit seems to be putting in me that writing fantasy is a sin.



We have to consider what the word "sin" actually means, in the original Greek.  To sin is to miss the mark.  If something is pulling you away from your journey with God, it is sin.  However, it is completely possible to write a fantasy novel from a position of faith, and for the experience to lead you closer to God.



> Did God favor them and offer them a good life?



That is not a good measure as to whether or not a person followed God.  Many of the greatest saints did not appear to be favored by God, or to be offered a "good life."  In fact, many of the greatest saints were persecuted, and suffered for their faith.  Many were put to death for their faith.



> Well, let's take a look at C.S. Lewis: after preaching for a couple of decades a lot of doctrines that some Christian denominations call heretical, he died at 65. It doesn't sound like he gathered a lot of grapes, now, does it?



If you look at the fruits of C.S. Lewis, they are many.  He led thousands (perhaps millions?) of people to a deeper appreciation of Christ.  His writings played a significant role in my own spiritual journey:

Fantasy Writing and the Spiritual Quest



> Am at wit's end. We don't have spiritual counselors in my denomination (I'm an Eastern-Orthodox). We have only priests and they have very little idea about anything related to mental issues related to religion.



I would urge you to keep seeing the psychologist for help with the OCD.  Many sufferers of OCD have found help through the following book:

https://www.amazon.com/Brain-Lock-Twentieth-Anniversary-Obsessive-Compulsive/dp/006256143X

In your Christian tradition, Eastern Orthodoxy, there is a rich tradition of monks serving as spiritual fathers.  You may want to visit a nearby monastery, and seek wisdom from such a spiritual father.

God bless.


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## pmmg (Mar 23, 2018)

Well, this is an old thread....

Constantin, you gotta do what you gotta do. So if you feel strongly writing fantasy is at odds with your faith, one has got to give, and I suspect I know which one you will choose. The no right or wrong to it, if that is what you feel called to do, than make it so. It could be, this gift and desire that God has given you is meant for another purpose, and its just not clear to you yet, what that may be.

I would suggest, and you can take it for it is worth, that God would not put a gift in your hands, and then expect you to hide it. And stories matter. Isnt that what the Bible is made of? When Jesus told the story of the Good Samaritan, did he not just make it up? Or of the prodigal son? or of the Two sons asked to work in the vineyard? Stories are meant to reach people and open them to ideas and at times reveal truths. Truths about ourselves and truths about the nature of things around us. Some fruits might just come in the form of goblins and dragons and elves.

I can tell you are wrestling with it. PM me if you like.


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## Devor (Mar 23, 2018)

Constantin said:


> Am at wit's end. We don't have spiritual counselors in my denomination (I'm an Eastern-Orthodox). We have only priests and they have very little idea about anything related to mental issues related to religion. I've tried seeing a psychologist for a few weeks, but it wasn't of any help and it was too expensive to continue. I just don't know what to do.



Okay.  There's a lot to respond to in this post, and I'm sure you're aware of how delicate the topic is. Ultimately you can only decide for yourself what is right with your conscience and your faith.  My experience with the Eastern Orthodox faith has been that it is one of the most strict Christian denominations when it comes to questions of piety such as this one.  If you're looking for something that feels as authoritative as formal permission within that denomination, I don't know how much room there is for optimism.

C.S. Lewis is well regarded by a lot of Christian denominations, especially those that are more traditional Protestant.  Many of his works, such as _Mere Christianity_ and _The Screwtape Letters_, are in fact staples for teaching Christianity to people who were raised in atheistic households.  If you're looking for a "saint" to validate the lifestyle of a fantasy writer, Lewis is about as close as you can find among Protestant Christians.  But of course, he wasn't Eastern Orthodox, so you can decide for yourself what his example means to you.  I would recommend giving his work a try before deciding.

When it comes to your own work, it's important to understand that there's a wide range of what you can do with your literary abilities.  You don't need to limit your field of vision to the likes of Narnia and Middle Earth.  I would encourage you to keep prodding at your literary possibilities and exposing yourself to different types of writing until you find something that you're comfortable with.  Eventually you'll be able to line up your abilities with your convictions - don't give up.  Deciding what you want to write is a key part of spiritual discovery.  It will be worthwhile in the end.

Finally, and I can only speak for myself here, but I would urge you not to treat your faith as a form of divination.  God will find a way to speak to you, but it will come from within, not from flipping coins.  I would go so far as to suggest that your reticence to accept the result of those coins is the tugging of your conscience.  Moreover, those kinds of activities will feed into your mental health issues.


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