# Envisioning the Magic



## Logos&Eidos (Mar 5, 2014)

I've been having a problem coming up with a good descriptor for the actual process of working magic. The best depiction in my onion of the process of spel-lcraft; Is in The Wheel of Time. Weaving so simple and yet so elegant. Such a metaphor would work perfectly for the magic system that I intended to use, and that's the problem. It would fit so well, that my using weaving wouldn't be scene as homage, no it would be plagiarism. 

The other modes for representing spell-craft,such as magic as language, or just willing amorphous mystical power to do something useful;really don't have the flavor that I'm looking.

The possible solution that I've arrived at is to start drawing on the imagery and a little of terminology of music/sound-design. Such a metaphor has been used elswhere and even became the basis for that interior worlds metaphysics. Heck Music as Magic is really old Idea, it was even a cosmological idea at one point.

So what do you think,Yes or No?


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## skip.knox (Mar 5, 2014)

Using musical language to describe magic sounds great to me. I like the notion that a spell might have amplitude, or that it reverberates, or modulates. Then there's the close map between music and mathematics that translates well to magic as well. 

I say start writing it and you'll quickly see if it's working for you.


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## Nagash (Mar 6, 2014)

Magic as a metaphor always felt compelling to me - and i'm positive you could imagine some sort of system reprising this concept without being accused of plagiarism. For instance, magic-wielding could be an ability depending on the character's capacity to imagine; thus, it would be closely connected to one's ability to dream and hope.

"Each reality is but the dream of another, and each dreamer an unknowing god..."


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## Feo Takahari (Mar 6, 2014)

This might be an odd question, but do you need to have a descriptor for magic? I'm currently editing for an author who treats magic as such a basic, fundamental thing that its users are completely casual and natural in its use. He gives no description of how it feels for a mage to work magic, for the same reason he gives no description of how it feels to extend one's arm--the most he does is describe how it looks from the outside for people who aren't as familiar with magic.

If you do need a descriptor, match it to how the magic functions. If magic runs on lifeforce, give it a beat and a pulse. If magic involves manipulating the fundamental structures of the universe, it should feel coolly ordered and logical. If magic calls on higher beings, show the power running through its users from somewhere else.

Come to think of it, what does magic do in your setting? What purpose does it serve? (You mention "crafting," so it sounds like it's an ordered process with some artistic elements.)


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## Hainted (Mar 6, 2014)

One thing to consider also is what happens when magic goes wrong? You call it crafting, but there are many kinds of craftsmen from weekend hobbyists to Masters who change the way things are made forever. Or taking the "weaving" a bit further maybe your society casts spells by "knitting" the magic together. The hand passes shape the spells and different "patterns" and "stitches" produce different effects.


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## Logos&Eidos (Mar 6, 2014)

Feo Takahari said:


> This might be an odd question, but do you need to have a descriptor for magic? I'm currently editing for an author who treats magic as such a basic, fundamental thing that its users are completely casual and natural in its use. He gives no description of how it feels for a mage to work magic, for the same reason he gives no description of how it feels to extend one's arm--the most he does is describe how it looks from the outside for people who aren't as familiar with magic.
> 
> If you do need a descriptor, match it to how the magic functions. If magic runs on lifeforce, give it a beat and a pulse. If magic involves manipulating the fundamental structures of the universe, it should feel coolly ordered and logical. If magic calls on higher beings, show the power running through its users from somewhere else.
> 
> Come to think of it, what does magic do in your setting? What purpose does it serve? (You mention "crafting," so it sounds like it's an ordered process with some artistic elements.)




Well I actually have three coexistent Magic systems.

1.Is granted by having a strong enough connection/sympathy/devotion to a god or compatible/ group of allied. That you can tap into their Numen.   Which is really rare and subtle, it "mostly" takes the form of intuitive insight/aptitude in areas that fall under a given gods domain. Imagine being able to out macgyver,macgyver, because of your connection to the gods of artifice.

2. Are Psychic/Ki powers. Which are seen as a discipline that anybody can learn with enough effort. In fact no soldier could get through basic training with out learning how to read "battle's rhythm"  and attain "Oneness" with their environment. precious few actual get good enough for these skills to really count as superpowers. The most they give the average practitioner are  slightly better reaction times and situational and environmental awareness than the average person.

3.Is fueled by chaos, not chaos as in destruction but chaos as in the primordial substance from all sprang;I'm even considering just calling the mages, chaotics. Since everything sprang from chaos then logically, if their were people who could influence the ambient background chaos, they would be able to effect the world around them.

I need a representation of the process because it helps me personally"get" the world and it adds flavor. Going with magic as music/esque metaphor. Spells would be performed rather than cast. To cast spells mages absorb free-chaos then arrange the motes of chaos/phons into patterns/symphons that when released/played effect the world. 

Heck I might just go with this, even when I was thinking about using "weaving" I called the magic-amplifying devices Instruments. However magic as music still feels a little clunky, how might it be smoothed out?


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## Edankyn (Mar 6, 2014)

Just to throw in a more literal position, to actually plagiarize someone else's work requires volition. Unless you are ripping text straight from Wheel of Time or some other book, odds are that at a minimum you would be paraphrasing. In the realm of copyright, Jordan (or rather Rigney's heirs) has no claim to the 'idea' of weaving. You can only copyright something that is actually captured in specific mediums. This is why authors can so frequently make essentially derivative works while only needing to change names in order to get around copyright claims.


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## Trick (Mar 6, 2014)

Logos&Eidos said:


> Well I actually have three coexistent Magic systems.
> 
> 1.Is granted by having a strong enough connection/sympathy/devotion to a god or compatible/ group of allied. That you can tap into their Numen.   Which is really rare and subtle, it "mostly" takes the form of intuitive insight/aptitude in areas that fall under a given gods domain. Imagine being able to out macgyver,macgyver, because of your connection to the gods of artifice.
> 
> ...



I know very little about music. Honestly, I don't really even listen to it any more. I do, however, know language and if you want to reduce the 'clunkiness' of the music-magic system, reduce the language. Research the history of music in multiple cultures and find the perfect words to use. Hopefully they're common enough for it to require very little explanation but you can also always subtly explain where required. I heard once that only Arabian music makes regular use of quarter notes; that might be a good place to start. You could use cultural differences in music to highlight the differences in your different magics and much more...


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## Snowpoint (Mar 7, 2014)

I like to add simple psychical actions to spell casting to address this same problem.

My Blood-Binders Tie Knots into Ropes and such to "Tie a Binding" They have all these different knots for different jobs. (it would be cool if I knew enough about real knots to correlate these spells to real knots, but I don't.) The Psychical act of trying a knot symbolizes the more complex meta-physical junk that doesn't need to be described every single time AND reinforces their core concept "binding stuff together".

Maybe one school of though carves Onions into funny shapes to cast spells, Or Soap Statues.


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## Logos&Eidos (Mar 8, 2014)

Snowpoint said:


> I like to add simple psychical actions to spell casting to address this same problem.
> 
> My Blood-Binders Tie Knots into Ropes and such to "Tie a Binding" They have all these different knots for different jobs. (it would be cool if I knew enough about real knots to correlate these spells to real knots, but I don't.) The Psychical act of trying a knot symbolizes the more complex meta-physical junk that doesn't need to be described every single time AND reinforces their core concept "binding stuff together".
> 
> Maybe one school of though carves Onions into funny shapes to cast spells, Or Soap Statues.



Thanks to the folk here, having a sounding board alone was a big help,in addition to the actual advice and stuff.

So here is the completed magic system!

Magic is fueled by chaos the primodial substance. Practioners who are simply callled Chaotics, draw in ambiant chaos. Then tune the units of chaos to the spefic notes(perhaps aspects) in the musica-universalis(of which there are five). Those tuned units of chaos are the arranged into a pattern/symphon, which when released will bring about the desired effect.  The casting is a performance and the spell an arragment; not an exact aplication of musical terminology,however I like the word and it is what is taking place.

Feel free to just use thread as a place to talk about the, the look and feel of your magic systems!


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## Logos&Eidos (Mar 31, 2014)

A question to ask to my fellows is, what are your thoughts on the role of magic users in society. In most fantasy stories the magic-user are just kind of there, present but not properly integrated into the fabric of society; even with magic guilds they are still on from fringe. Which is not what would happen realistically, because society finds a place for every one.

The examples of "integrated" magic-users that I've seen are.

The Jedi

The Aes Sadi( especially as they were doing the age of legends)

The Shugenja

These examples are all a class of noble civil servants and protectors.


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## Svrtnsse (Mar 31, 2014)

In my setting, magic is common enough to be an accepted part of life, but rare enough that magic wielders are a valuable resource for a community.

Varying from nation to nation and region to region magic users may be treated differently. It's generally safe to assume that someone with at least average skill in wielding magic is expected and encouraged to use their ability to benefit their community. 
In some nations magic wielders may be forced into certain kinds of service by law and tradition, while in other nations they may be encourage to enter into the same kinds of service by fame and fortune.

Magic wielders of less ability are generally not subjected to this kind of encouragement but are free to chose what occupation they want. They will still receive or be required to take at least some form of training in magical control - to avoid accident.


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## Queshire (Mar 31, 2014)

Clarke's Third Law says that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." By the same token any magic ought to be indistinguishable from sufficiently advanced technology. I don't necessarily mean a crystal ball based internet or magic mirror TV, but if you want to integrate magic users you need to think how the magic can be used for the benefit of you and yours and then figure that it will be used for that benefit.

One example of something like this that I've thought up is mass produced scrolls containing useful everyday spells, well, I say scrolls, but advancements in the technology has resulted in them being the size of playing cards.


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## evanator66 (Mar 31, 2014)

That seems like a good idea to me.


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## Logos&Eidos (Apr 1, 2014)

Magic has been instrumental to the survival of sentient life on my world. It has weather could be described as nothing less than apocalyptic. And magic helped them survive long for their engineering acumen could reach the level where climate controlled fortress-cities could be constructed. 

A tangent: If magic is power full and reaonbly reliable then why did technology develop at all?
Accessibility and supply and demand. There where never enough mages with the right set of skills to meet the demand for their services. So technology developed to fill the gap.  While both the Ars-magica and Technology both require talent process. Only Ars-magica requires talent to reproduce its wonders.

Magic is a talent it runs in families and but can show up anywhere. while some people feel that magocracy is the logical result of a powerful semi-hereditary magic; I don't entirely agree. Physical prowess was instrumental to human survival for a very very long time. Yet humans have experimented with a great many forms of government. Despite the most "logical" being a kind of military junta.

While some societies would doubtlessly be magocratic, they all wouldn't' be

The onmyoujien.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onmyōdō#Onmy.C5.8Dji are the only real world example of the noble civil-servant/guardian model of magic-users that I am somewhat familiar with.


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## Snowpoint (Apr 1, 2014)

My Blood-Binders are mostly Lawyers and Bankers in addition to magical services. After a revolution the Blood-Binders, having control over Law and Money became the de-facto rulers of the country. And then became "legit" politicians. 

Blood-Biners in my setting are very limit in scope. There are only a handful of spells they can cast. They can not summon fire, create food, or the like. They can Bind, which is to Unite, Compel, or Obligate. So, they have to be clever to find useful, profitable ways to use their magic.


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## Logos&Eidos (Apr 1, 2014)

Snowpoint said:


> My Blood-Binders are mostly Lawyers and Bankers in addition to magical services. After a revolution the Blood-Binders, having control over Law and Money became the de-facto rulers of the country. And then became "legit" politicians.
> 
> Blood-Biners in my setting are very limit in scope. There are only a handful of spells they can cast. They can not summon fire, create food, or the like. They can Bind, which is to Unite, Compel, or Obligate. So, they have to be clever to find useful, profitable ways to use their magic.



Well my world is a little over two thousand years out from it's third apocalypse,the people haven had really bad luck these past couple of centeriues , the collapse of a magocratic empire. So people have kinda had to revert back to the "old ways".

Taking your Blood-Binders as an example and thinking about what do my" mages". They can quite a bit a lot of the traditional mage stuff. Offenses,defense, logistics and supports. 

A very plausible model to me, is one inspired by the Hidden-villages of Naruto. Selling their services to highest bidder and giving preferred customer status to their host country.  However the logical result is the mages being clannish, paranoid,covetous of their secretes and bloodlines.  trying to absorb anyone who manifest the the talent outside the clan/order(need a better name for mage groups), and have having mandate through lobbying of the local government that it is illegal for a mage not to be member.  This works really really well, however it doesn't seem quite regal enough. How could this set up be made classier?


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