# Beta Reading



## BWFoster78 (Jan 3, 2013)

At the risk of sounding like the SAT, which of the following statements best describes the most important goal of a beta reader?

1. To help the author write the best possible book.
2. To help the author achieve the author's vision for the book.

Important consideration: The word "best" is entirely subjective.  What the beta reader thinks is best may not be what the author thinks is best.


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## Philip Overby (Jan 3, 2013)

I would say number 2.  I think oftentimes people may beta read and think that means they need to inject their own vision into someone else's book.  A good beta reader should try to understand what the author is going for and try to help them achieve their vision.  You could have a really awesome beta reader that really helps you polish up your book, but there is always the risk that their suggestions may muddy your original vision.

Having an honest beta reader that can point out issues with your characters, plot, setting, etc. is the best possible one to have in my opinion.  Some people like to maybe have an echo chamber of people just saying how great they are or just like people to critique them into oblivion.  I like a balance:  tell me what I did well, but tell me what needs work.  I also think leaving your writer hat at home helps sometimes as well.  Read to enjoy the story.  If something isn't enjoyable, confuses you, or whatever, tell the author.  That's the best help a reader can give.


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## wordwalker (Jan 3, 2013)

#2, in that it's almost impossible to get #1 by separating it from #2.

A story works on its own terms; it's being true to itself that keeps it from coming off as repetitive, and that also means it can't be wrenched into something else.

The closest exception might be if the reader's able to say "You're doing _this_, but all _these_ seem like part of you wanted something different, and maybe you'd rather do that." If they make a good case, you've got choices to make.

Or, a regular reader can give any opinion he wants; if a total action fan wants a fight in half the chapters, you might learn something from which half he suggests. But a full beta reader ought to be better at getting what you're trying to do.

(Besides, if the "beta" knows writing better than you do, maybe what he really needs is a beta for his own story!)


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jan 3, 2013)

I'll go in a different direction and say #1. Beta reading is different from critiquing.

One of the points of beta reading is to get fresh eyes on the project, eyes that may read and see things differently. I'm not arrogant enough to not understand that my vision may be limited. If a beta reader can offer insight that makes that book better, why wouldn't I want to consider this even if it goes against my initial vision.

If I asked this person to be an early reader, I did so for a reason. Likely, I respect their intelligence, honesty, critical eye, things of this nature. I'm not going to limit myself to changes or direct their efforts. That would be selling the work short. I asked them to read to help me improve the way a book reads, understand how different people may read a sentence differently, look for plot holes, AND opportunities for story improvement.

A reader that would say, "Yeah I liked that character but thought it would have been really cool if she did this instead of that." is a valuable contributor with opinions to consider. This doesn't mean I have to do these things but I should at least entertain the use of these suggestions. At the beta reader point, I'm looking for partnerships aimed at improving the work as a whole, not proofreaders.


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## Steerpike (Jan 3, 2013)

I'll chime in support for #2. If the beta reader is trying to turn your story into their story, you have a problem.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jan 3, 2013)

An example, Stephen King's Carrie. 

He could not get this book published and threw it in the trash. His wife pulled it out, read it, and offered changes to the MC that would fit for an adolescent girl (from her own experiences). These traits were not part of the original vision for the MC. The character of Carrie was altered based off of these suggestions.

The result was the first sale, the first for King to go into mass paperback production allowing him to write full time, the launching point of a career.

Some may say that these changes didn't alter the overall vision. I'll accept that. In retreading some of the previous comments I see we're saying some similar things. However, altering a MC's outlook, reactions, and feelings is a major vision change in my opinion. It affected the majority of the story in a positive way.


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## Leif Notae (Jan 3, 2013)

Well, there is something to be said about the point of view of another person.



T.Allen.Smith said:


> An example, Stephen King's Carrie.
> 
> He could not get this book published and threw it in the trash. His wife pulled it out, read it, and offered changes to the MC that would fit for an adolescent girl (from her own experiences). These traits were not part of the original vision for the MC. The character of Carrie was altered based off of these suggestions.



You never know when your beta actually might have a better idea of the character than you do (though no fault of your own, perhaps you don't have the knowledge). They are meant to do both, but you control what affect they have on your voice and word.


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## MadMadys (Jan 3, 2013)

I'll say number 1.

When I read an author's work, I tell them I will be reading as someone who wants to like the story.  I will try my best to understand the story the writer is trying to tell and if I can give them advice to improve that idea, I certainly will.  That said, I'm not there to give them leeway on every idea just because it's something they want to do.  If you want to describe a spaceship in vivid detail over 5 pages, you are welcome to it, but I'll tell you I got bored halfway through the second paragraph and that your execution is lacking.

If a character is poorly done, a plot hole is too obvious, or something has no purpose in a story, I'm going to point it out if it bothers me.  I won't bend my view simply to serve the author's ego.  In the same light, of course, if the author does something well or even great, I won't hesitate to point that out either.  Critiques aren't just about fixing what is wrong but lifting what is right and what works.  That's how I prefer anyone who reads what I write to look at it.

It's up to the author to maintain their vision of the story.  As a beta reader, I feel I have to give my impression of the story as someone in no way as connected to the material as the author who might have gotten lost in their own world.  If I have a character in my own story that is flat and boring at the start, I don't want my beta to just accept I wanted her boring but to tell me she sucks in first couple of chapters so I can fix her.  If they're trying to just feed my vision, they may not think to point this out.

Of course, they can take or leave my comments as it is their story in the end.  If you would like to be published at some point, not everyone is going to give you the benefit of the doubt on your stories so it's good to have someone look at it who can give you that outside opinion.


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 3, 2013)

Excellent points on both sides.  Nice debate.

Follow up question: Is it possible for the answer to be situational instead of absolute?  Does the role of the beta reader change based on circumstances?


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jan 3, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Excellent points on both sides.  Nice debate.
> 
> Follow up question: Is it possible for the answer to be situational instead of absolute?  Does the role of the beta reader change based on circumstances?



I'm not sure I understand. Are you talking about circumstances like an author just beginning the beta reading stage versus an author who is submitting to a few final readers a month out from publication?


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## The Writer's Realms (Jan 3, 2013)

I agree with MadMadys.

I'm going to assume that if the author has released a beta, then he/she wants audience input. The author is probably feeling pretty structured by now and wants to compile everybody's tidbits. So personally, give the author everything you like or hate about the book.


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## Leif Notae (Jan 3, 2013)

The thing that might be good (this is somewhat on topic) is an open source beta. This allows multiple voices to chime in on what they saw, and you can see the trend growing if out of 200+ people, you have 80 picking up on one plot point and 50 picking up on another. It will also allow you to sidestep the second guessing if you have limited beta feedback, obsessing on something they might not have understood or skipped over.


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 3, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I'm not sure I understand. Are you talking about circumstances like an author just beginning the beta reading stage versus an author who is submitting to a few final readers a month out from publication?



Sorry.  I should have clarified, though I was trying not to restrict the discussion.

Does the role change based on the relative strengths of the beta reader and the author?  For example, if I'm stronger at technique than the author I'm beta reading for, does my goal change to help that author develop better technique?  

Alternately, as you suggested, does the role change based on the status of the work?  If the piece is in a more conceptual stage, does the beta reader's goal change based on a late draft?

The main question I was asking in my second post is if your answer to the original question is absolute or if you think it can change based on circumstances.


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 3, 2013)

> I'm going to assume that if the author has released a beta, then he/she wants audience input. The author is probably feeling pretty structured by now and wants to compile everybody's tidbits. So personally, give the author everything you like or hate about the book.



At some point, though, is giving the wrong input worse than no input at all?


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## MadMadys (Jan 3, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Does the role change based on the relative strengths of the beta reader and the author?  For example, if I'm stronger at technique than the author I'm beta reading for, does my goal change to help that author develop better technique?



I know when I read, I just have one sort of way to critique so I don't change to fit what they need.  If someone comes to me I would assume they want my feedback in whatever form it comes in.  Now if they would like me to focus on something in particular, say the development of one character through the story, I can do that if they need.  I wouldn't call it an 'absolute' but it's just how I look at it.  Everyone has their different styles and strong points.



BWFoster78 said:


> Alternately, as you suggested, does the role change based on the status of the work? If the piece is in a more conceptual stage, does the beta reader's goal change based on a late draft?



I'd say yes and no.  If someone gives me a first draft they know they will change, my points might be more broad strokes.  I won't nitpick lines and focus more on the bigger picture.

Now if someone is getting down to what they think they want to publish, I'll be a lot more precise and critical of lines while still giving thumbs up if something works.  However, I won't be any more kind if something doesn't work in the broad sense.  I think it's dangerous, for a writer and a beta reader, to get to later drafts and think they can't change something that sucks simply because it would take too long or that just because we're on draft 10 it should be good enough by now.

So in a big picture way, I personally edit for "does this work" regardless of status but one does have to keep in mind the state of the work.  If it's someone's first try, I don't belittle them for grammar or boring sections because it's the first draft, who cares!  Now if they feel something is done and they have those same mistakes, well, I won't hesitate to bring them up.


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## Ankari (Jan 3, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> At some point, though, is giving the wrong input worse than no input at all?



In a profession (or hobby) that allows its participants great flexibility in its execution, it's hard to say what is right and wrong input.  All input is valid or invalid.  It is up for the author to take all the feedback of his beta readers and chose which one will aid his story

But opinions and feedback are a tricky thing.  Sometimes something is suggested that opens up a new understanding of the final development of a story.  Just as an author labors days revising his opening chapter, he should also take days understanding what was submitted to him and analyze their implications.


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## The Writer's Realms (Jan 3, 2013)

Ankari said:


> In a profession (or hobby) that allows its participants great flexibility in its execution, it's hard to say what is right and wrong input.  All input is valid or invalid.  It is up for the author to take all the feedback of his beta readers and chose which one will aid his story
> 
> But opinions and feedback are a tricky thing.  Sometimes something is suggested that opens up a new understanding of the final development of a story.  Just as an author labors days revising his opening chapter, he should also take days understanding what was submitted to him and analyze their implications.



Completely agree. Ankari took the words right out of my mouth. Literally. I closed my browser on accident and when I came back, bam, post. : D


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jan 3, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Does the role change based on the relative strengths of the beta reader and the author?  For example, if I'm stronger at technique than the author I'm beta reading for, does my goal change to help that author develop better technique?



I feel that the reading should cover all aspects of improvement. Technical writing, story, structure, characterization, all things of this nature should be fair game if you're asking for someone's honest input and help. I don't see any reason to place restrictions on what a beta should try to perceive, or comment on, in the writing. That's seems like handicapping the effort right from the start. Give me the unadulterated truth.

However, I am a believer in focusing readers towards critique. Meaning, they are free to comment and critique any portion on any level.... "But please pay close attention to this. I really want feedback on this character/plot line/scene particularly."



BWFoster78 said:


> ...does the role change based on the status of the work?  If the piece is in a more conceptual stage, does the beta reader's goal change based on a late draft?



I suppose it should, the tighter and tighter the work gets. As you near completion, grammatical concerns, sentence structuring, confusion over details etc. should probably take a back seat to the story itself primarily because those previous issues should have been corrected at this point.

If those issues still exist then I would expect the reader to voice them regardless of time frame so I can review those suggestions and continue to make changes or dismiss them. I see little value in not hearing those criticisms regardless of stage.



BWFoster78 said:


> The main question I was asking in my second post is if your answer to the original question is absolute or if you think it can change based on circumstances.



For me it changes only in terms of directing critique towards specific items as mentioned above. Regardless, I'd still want frank honesty during the entire process. 

Here's the thing. Let's assume you're lucky enough to have 20 beta readers (hypothetical). Considering a certain character, if 15 of those readers like that character (or at least find them interesting) then that's a success in my book. I should still listen to the other 5 readers. Perhaps they'd have a suggestion that would bump the number to 17. Regardless though, you're not going to please everyone. We all know that. It's our job as the writer to ultimately decide how to act upon reader input. We're not being forced to use every suggestion voiced. Why wouldn't you wish to hear them all though?


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## Penpilot (Jan 3, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Does the role change based on the relative strengths of the beta reader and the author?  For example, if I'm stronger at technique than the author I'm beta reading for, does my goal change to help that author develop better technique?



I'm not sure. I don't really think of my roll as being teacher. I simply point out what I think are problems, and why I think they're problems. I try to be cautious about offering up directions to go unless prompted to. Part of writing is learning on your own, and part of that is knowing when to ask for help about something specific.



> Alternately, as you suggested, does the role change based on the status of the work?  If the piece is in a more conceptual stage, does the beta reader's goal change based on a late draft?



My critique changes depending on what stage the story is in. Early drafts, I concentrate on big picture. Later drafts, I'll get nit-picky. 

I also take into consideration the writer. Are they a new writer or are they old hats? Depending on that, I'll shift from firm nudges to down right pushes. Also with new writers, I avoid the verbal barrage of faults. I make sure I find some good things to say about the story, and I only pick out a few of most egregious things to point out. Chances are if they fix those big things, the smaller stuff disappears.


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 3, 2013)

> In a profession (or hobby) that allows its participants great flexibility in its execution, it's hard to say what is right and wrong input. All input is valid or invalid. It is up for the author to take all the feedback of his beta readers and chose which one will aid his story



I'm trying to approach the question from the perspective of "how do you become a better beta reader" or "how can I best help the author."

I think that most authors have probably gotten comments that has lead them down the wrong path.  I would also think that most authors have gotten comments that have taken up unwarranted time in figuring out.  

Granted, most of that is the responsibility of the author, but is there anything that beta readers can do to make the process better?


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## Leif Notae (Jan 3, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> _s there anything that beta readers can do to make the process better?_


_

Other than the knowledge of what a story is, how to process a story, how the story structure goes, how literacy works, and to not react with raw emotion and feeling to something they might not like?

Nope. They just need to keep reading and get used to some of the bumps with the territory._


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 3, 2013)

> We're not being forced to use every suggestion voiced. Why wouldn't you wish to hear them all though?



Part of me agrees with you; all input is good input.

Another part of me says: sometimes input is noise, and sometimes noise gets in the way of productivity.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jan 3, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> ....sometimes input is noise, and sometimes noise gets in the way of productivity.



In that case, I'd say the author needs to select better, more constructive beta readers.

If its someone whose vision you value & opinion you respect, would you consider their comments noise? I wouldn't. If I did they wouldn't be reading for me.


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## Ankari (Jan 3, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Granted, most of that is the responsibility of the author, but is there anything that beta readers can do to make the process better?



This thread has derived into how the author absorbs the information from a beta reader.  To get things back on track, here are some suggestions:


Tell the author what books you like and appreciate.  Go a bit further and rank the top ten series/stand alone novels so the author knows what you appreciate the most.
Communicate with your author.  Get feedback on your feedback.
Build a rapport with the author.  Show him/her that you're an asset.
Don't sugar coat things.  Tell it as it is in a professional manner.
Tell them the 'why' of your comments (simply writing "this is not appropriate" isn't enough).
If an author says something is off the table, consider it off the table...unless you discover another aspect of the story affected by that item.
Ask (and then address) for specific feedback the author is looking for (the author should really be doing this, but a professional beta reader would know to prompt the amatuer author if he failed to do so).


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 4, 2013)

> In that case, I'd say the author needs to select better, more constructive beta readers.
> 
> If its someone whose vision you value & opinion you respect, would you consider their comments noise? I wouldn't. If I did they wouldn't be reading for me.



I disagree completely with the sentiment of this statement.

I haven't found any beta readers that are perfect.  Each has strengths and weaknesses, as I do when I beta read.  Even if I respect their opinion, it doesn't mean that they're not completely wrong in some areas and contribute to the noise level.


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 4, 2013)

Ankari said:


> This thread has derived into how the author absorbs the information from a beta reader.  To get things back on track, here are some suggestions:
> 
> 
> Tell the author what books you like and appreciate.  Go a bit further and rank the top ten series/stand alone novels so the author knows what you appreciate the most.
> ...



Thanks.  Good suggestions.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jan 4, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I disagree completely with the sentiment of this statement.
> 
> I haven't found any beta readers that are perfect.  Each has strengths and weaknesses, as I do when I beta read.  Even if I respect their opinion, it doesn't mean that they're not completely wrong in some areas and contribute to the noise level.



I never said perfect. I was responding to your comments about noise which, by the way I first took your comment, meant constant unhelpful comments that only drown out occasional good ideas or people that try to force your work into a certain direction over & over.

Yes, I agree that even the best readers will have opinions that aren't productive. We, as authors, are the filter for these unhelpful opinions.


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 4, 2013)

> Yes, I agree that even the best readers will have opinions that aren't productive. We, as authors, are the filter for these unhelpful opinions.



Do you have any thoughts as to how we, as beta readers, can improve either how or what we transmit to authors to reduce the unhelpful opinions?


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jan 4, 2013)

I critique a lot in live groups but I've never truly been a beta for anyone so my experience is limited.

In critiques I prefer unadulterated honesty with an understanding that criticism is constructive. It's not as much a partnership as it is a service. The critics, in live scenarios I'm engaged in, provide service for each other. We nitpick details, everything than can be pointed out for correction or consideration. They tear mine apart, I rip theirs to shreds. We both benefit. Whomever shows up that week is who reads your work. It's not a process of selection.

In beta reading, I as an author, am looking for partners who can speak to me frankly about what they enjoy and what didn't work. These are people I've selected. Their selection may be based on many factors (people that read a ton, people in the industry, friends whom I consider highly intelligent & honest, etc). Overall, these people are selected because they all wish to see me succeed. They desire to be a part of my success. With critics, from the example above, the relationship is far more clinical.

So, as a beta reader, I'd only accept the role if I'm truly willing to help the author succeed beyond the "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" mentality. That is how I'd be a better beta, reserving that level of involvement for authors who want and deserve that partnership.

Just my thoughts on the questions. Yours may differ.


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 4, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I critique a lot in live groups but I've never truly been a beta for anyone so my experience is limited.
> 
> In critiques I prefer unadulterated honesty with an understanding that criticism is constructive. It's not as much a partnership as it is a service. The critics, in live scenarios I'm engaged in, provide service for each other. We nitpick details, everything than can be pointed out for correction or consideration. They tear mine apart, I rip theirs to shreds. We both benefit. Whomever shows up that week is who reads your work. It's not a process of selection.
> 
> ...



I've done beta reading and participated in live groups.  I think that the fundamental difference in the mediums is the ability to have live give and take in the group setting.  You don't have that as a beta reader.  All you have is a static description of your thought in a brief comment.

I think that this difference leads to more potential for misunderstandings and time wasting all around.


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## Addison (Jan 4, 2013)

I would have to say number 3. As in both 1 and 2. From what I understand a Beta reader is reading the story as a friend, faimly member or whoever but is reading the story through the mind set of both editor and first reader. 
So in the editor filter the beta reader is helping the author to write the best story possible. Yet through the first-reader filter he/she is helping the reader be able to send the entire story to the extent they saw it in their imagination.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jan 4, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I've done beta reading and participated in live groups.  I think that the fundamental difference in the mediums is the ability to have live give and take in the group setting.  You don't have that as a beta reader.  All you have is a static description of your thought in a brief comment.
> 
> I think that this difference leads to more potential for misunderstandings and time wasting all around.



An interesting concept. 

With beta readers I've used (5 people) I've never perceived trouble with any disconnect resulting in misunderstandings. They read from cover to cover, taking notes along the way. I find that process incredibly helpful.

In the live critique groups (2 different groups with about 10 people in attendance weekly for both) we read 1500 word excerpts.

That's an excerpt under a microscope vs the work as a whole. Instant feedback in the live groups, as you mentioned above & reading the entire work as its intended to be presented (chapters at a time) in the latter. That, as well as personal investment in the authors success, are the fundamental differences in my opinion.

Who are you using as beta readers? Are they from the same live critique groups?


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 4, 2013)

> Who are you using as beta readers? Are they from the same live critique groups?



One from the group was a reader for me, but not anymore.  Otherwise, I try to use a variety.  Some people from this board, some friends/family.  Some of the friends have turned out to be more insightful and helpful than I ever would have thought.  Once they finally understood that I wasn't going to be offended at criticism, a couple really came through with some great input.

I find that the beta readers offer much deeper input, on average, than the live group.  Maybe it's the format we use with the author reading outloud; it doesn't leave a lot of time to delve deep into the material.

Also, like you said, it's different doing one to two thousand word versus an entire piece.


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