# Sex?



## Iamfenian (Mar 23, 2013)

How many of you use sex scenes in your WIP?  I have made several unreserved sexual scenes in my novel because I feel like it's a vital part of the story and know that many young adults like it.  When Fifty Shades of Grey came out boy did that book make the rounds at work.  I read one excerpt and was actually not impressed. My scenes are brief but pretty explicit and it made me wonder how many of you think this is a signifcant element to your story.  Happy writing!


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## Ireth (Mar 23, 2013)

I personally see no need for it, especially if it's explicit. The closest I've come to writing it is a couple engaging in foreplay on their wedding night; I skipped the actual act.


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## Devor (Mar 23, 2013)

I'd just like to remind everybody in advance to keep the conversation civil, family-friendly, and safe for work.


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## Steerpike (Mar 23, 2013)

It depends on the story; it can be significant or gratuitous, depending on how the author handles it. 

Keep in mind, however, that explicit discussions are not allowed on the forums, so speak in general terms. There's no need to reference specific language that you might use, &c.

EDIT: Ninjaed!


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## Ophiucha (Mar 23, 2013)

I write sex scenes out if they are important. The story I am working on is probably going to have one between the main character and her girlfriend, but I'm not committed to it. If it does happen, though, it will probably be quite explicit by nature of its purpose in the story. My other major character couple may have a very _intimate _scene without any actual sex, since one of them is a nun. We'll see how it goes. Writing sex is kind of hard - not as hard as battle scenes, for me at least, but they rank with 'em.


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## Iamfenian (Mar 23, 2013)

Thanks everyone....no I wouldn't showcase any of my sex scenes but I do think they're vital to my story.  The reason why is because of what I mentioned before with Fifty Shades of Gray...the young women were all entralled by the sex scenes and there was so much buzz about it I knew I could incorporate it into my story easily.  It's not just hardcore raw sex; there's also an element of love that goes with the sex.


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## Devora (Mar 23, 2013)

I wanna ask the question: is it necessary to write a sex scene, or can you skip it and just imply it happened?


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## Devor (Mar 23, 2013)

Devora said:


> I wanna ask the question: is it necessary to write a sex scene, or can you skip it and just imply it happened?



You can definitely skip it.  And many times _implied_ can be more powerful than explicit.  But it all depends on what fits the tone of your novel and the seriousness of your characters.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 23, 2013)

Devora said:


> I wanna ask the question: is it necessary to write a sex scene, or can you skip it and just imply it happened?



I'd say it just depends on the situation and what tone you're setting for the story. One could get themselves into a situation in which writing out the scene better serves the story - like if you need to have something happen in the middle of it. But you could also choose to include it to set a certain tone, as well. _A Song of Ice and Fire_ does that rather effectively. Sex is definitely still considered something of a taboo in non-erotica fiction, but strictly speaking having a sex scene won't take up any more space than half of the crap writers put in their stories; I don't think a sex scene is any more to the detriment of a work in terms of its literary quality than a three page description of what food is on the table or all of the ships in a navy (*cough* _War and Peace_ *cough*)... but it's far more likely to turn people away from your work, and it pretty much instantly means you're not getting into any school libraries or the YA section of a bookstore. And if you're writing an LGBT sex scene, often you'll get put into the 'LGBT' section of the bookstore even if it isn't that _important_. I've found some great science fiction novels shoved in that little corner just because the love interest was as male as the main character.

There are many, many, _many _valid marketing and literary reasons to skip it and just imply it happened, but I also don't think every sex scene in the history of literature has been gratuitous and unnecessary. It's up to you, and your publishers if it makes it to that point.


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## Alexandra (Mar 23, 2013)

Why is sex more contentious than violence? No one thinks twice about describing how one character guts another like a fish but the friendly poke is verbotten!?! Why?

A few commenters have mentioned implied sex, what about implied violence:
Sir Tom drew his blade on Sir Dick and soon the song of steel on steel echoed throughout the hall.... Later, while have a drink with Sir Dick, he said, "Tom, I killed 'im." Not quite the same, is it?

Sex will play a role in my main character's development, and in her story. To put it bluntly, she's a woman...she has needs. Sex scenes will be written. The inclusion of graphic sex in my work may turn off (pun intended) some potential readers and my work may never find its way into the YA section of a library—so be it. I don't care. The tales must be told, the songs must be sung, and to myself and my characters I must be true.


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## Ireth (Mar 23, 2013)

Alexandra said:


> Sex will play a role in my main character's development, and in her story. To put it bluntly, she's a woman...she has needs. Sex scenes will be written. The inclusion of graphic sex in my work may turn off (pun intended) some potential readers and my work may never find its way into the YA section of a library—so be it. I don't care. The tales must be told, the songs must be sung, and to myself and my characters I must be true.



Why is it people always (or at least often) say that women have "needs", and not men? And why does that automatically justify explicit onscreen sex? (Or does it?) The villain of my vampire novel is a nymphomaniac, yet I don't show him having sex with any of his lovers, even implied sex.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 23, 2013)

Female sexuality is definitely more taboo, historically _and _presently, so I think when you are subverting that, the language changes to emphasize it. Men who enjoy sex are kind of just seen as 'normal' - neither stereotype is good, but the former tends to be more harmful. Although, that said, I've nearly always seen the phrase '[x] have needs' in reference to men instead of women, so that _particular _example may just be anecdotal.


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## Ireth (Mar 23, 2013)

*nodnod* That does make sense.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 23, 2013)

As for the violence/sex thing... I mean, I think that's just how it's always been. Like, you'd be burned at the stake for being a 'witch' if you were a little too flirty with another woman's husband, but there wasn't much wrong with the same woman's kids watching you be burned alive. But yeah, it's a bit odd that this standard is still around. I think George R.R. Martin has a quote about that; I'll link it if I find it.

*edit: *GRRM quote.


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## Devor (Mar 23, 2013)

Alexandra said:


> Why is sex more contentious than violence? No one thinks twice about describing how one character guts another like a fish but the friendly poke is verbotten!?! Why?



The long and short of it, like you said, people have "sexual needs," and very few people have violent ones.  Thus, sexual portrayals affect people more.

But "sexual needs," mind you, doesn't just mean "a need for sex."  For instance, if I feel like someone is using sex to manipulate me, I get put off by it.  My "sexual need," in that case, is to respect myself and my marriage.


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## Alexandra (Mar 23, 2013)

Ireth said:


> Why is it people always (or at least often) say that women have "needs", and not men? And why does that automatically justify explicit onscreen sex? (Or does it?) The villain of my vampire novel is a nymphomaniac, yet I don't show him having sex with any of his lovers, even implied sex.



I used the expression "women have needs" in relation to my principal character because she's a woman. When she falls in love she quickly experiences the fact that men have needs too, not that she didn't already know. As to why others use the expression the way they do...I have no idea. I am not using the expression in question to justify the presence of sex in my work, I don't feel any need to justify it. Tis just a part of the characters' lives.

If your nymphomaniac vampire is never depicted having sex, nor is the sex implied, why make him a nymphomaniac? Is he fighting his urges?

By the way, your male vamp has satyriasis, only women can be nymphomaniacs, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Ireth (Mar 23, 2013)

Alexandra said:


> If your nymphomaniac vampire is never depicted having sex, nor is the sex implied, why make him a nymphomaniac? Is he fighting his urges?
> 
> By the way, your male vamp has satyriasis, only women can be nymphomaniacs, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.



I shouldn't have said I never implied it, that was a mistake. It _is_ implied, just not shown. His urges, and his desire to fight them, play a large role in his backstory, but by the time of the novel proper he has long since given himself over to them.

I also never knew there was a different term for that issue in men than women. Interesting.


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## Alexandra (Mar 23, 2013)

Ophiucha said:


> As for the violence/sex thing... I mean, I think that's just how it's always been. Like, you'd be burned at the stake for being a 'witch' if you were a little too flirty with another woman's husband, but there wasn't much wrong with the same woman's kids watching you be burned alive. But yeah, it's a bit odd that this standard is still around. I think George R.R. Martin has a quote about that; I'll link it if I find it.
> 
> *edit: *GRRM quote.



I love the way George R R Martin used sex in the _A Song of Ice and Fire_, and how tis used in HBO's _Game of Thrones_. I wrote about the depiction of sex in GoT last summer, when the series was catching a lot of flak for its allegedly gratuitous sex: _On the Game in a Game of Thrones_.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 23, 2013)

I like writing sex scenes. What can I say, I'm a horny guy.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 23, 2013)

I've heard satyriasis and nymphomania both used for men. I don't think the former is very commonplace, though it _does _have the nice mythological gendering going on (satyr/nymph), so I like the word from a linguistic perspective. A lot of old gender words have faded out of use, though usually it's the masculine one that becomes the norm.


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## Chime85 (Mar 23, 2013)

I'm in the middle of the road on this one. I see no reason for putting them in, except for one reason. If they are important to the plot, they need to be in, if not, do not. 

To be honest, if a sex scene cannot be truly justified in both the scope of the writer and the reader, either leave it out entirely, or note card it with a "fade to black." It sounds lazy, but sex scenes are often a plot stopper, a fade to black caters for both the plot and the scene.


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## Ireth (Mar 23, 2013)

The only reason I'd consider actually including a sex scene in my writing is if it actually serves a plot purpose -- say, for example, my lustful vampire finally gets to bed his long-time object of affections on their wedding night when she becomes his second wife, only to turn her into a vampire mid-coitus when his urges overtake him. Thus he's driven mad with grief and shame, and starts down the slippery slope toward craziness and all-around "I don't give a crap, I'mma feed from all the humans and have all the sex I want, cuz holding back hasn't done me a lick of good." (This actually happens, I just haven't written it out yet.)


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## Jess A (Mar 23, 2013)

I've only got one scene that comes close to a sex scene in my WIP (so far). I don't describe anything explicit, and the act isn't described either. But their thoughts and feelings are, and a bit of the lead up to it. It's plot specific so it's there, but I find no need to describe the act at all.

I must note - I'm writing my book for a wide age group, with my main characters ranging from ages 16 to 50. I find this isn't uncommon in fantasy. Though I'm writing mostly for adults, I want it to be accessible to teenagers too - I read a lot of adult fantasy books as a child and I don't remember many explicit sex scenes. I'm not saying kids are naive, but I'm not sure I'd be happy with my 13-year-old reading explicit sex scenes


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## Chessie (Mar 23, 2013)

Agreed ^^. I prefer sensuality to sexuality. I think most readers can use their imagination as to what happens anyway. Conveying of emotions and the energy between lovers can be done without going into great detail. Although there are times when a bit more is needed. I wrote a piece once about a young wife that had been taken advantage of by a friend of hers. It was a fade to black sort of thing after the readers were led to what was happening. Later on in the story, this woman's sexual relationship with her husband was of importance to the plot. The strain that such an event had on their physical relationship was definitely noted but it was more through hear say or the protagonist's thoughts. Part of the healing journey for her was being intimiate with her husband again but I didn't highlight the act. It was done through a conversation along with some making out...then fade to black again. But the readers had already captured everything she had gone through in between so writing of the act would perhaps have been fine...but I prefer to leave such details to the wonderful audience.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 23, 2013)

Jess A said:


> I must note - I'm writing my book for a wide age group, with my main characters ranging from ages 16 to 50. I find this isn't uncommon in fantasy. Though I'm writing mostly for adults, I want it to be accessible to teenagers too - I read a lot of adult fantasy books as a child and I don't remember many explicit sex scenes. I'm not saying kids are naive, but I'm not sure I'd be happy with my 13-year-old reading explicit sex scenes


Normally I don't think about target audiences whenever I write, but my mom has told me that if I ever manage to finish and publish anything, I would enjoy the most success among teenage boys. Certainly my own interests (namely sexy women and action) intersect the most with many adolescent males'. I wonder how they would feel about sex scenes?


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Mar 23, 2013)

If I'm reading Iamfenian correctly, the point of the sex scene would not necessarily be plot driven but reader driven.  I.e. 50 Shades is popular because its female readers liked the sex scenes and Iamfenian is hoping to tap in to that.  I can't argue with that as a motivation and I think it can be a big driver behind romance novels, many of which are quite explicit nowadays when it comes to the bedroom scenes.  I think there are some of the vampires books (Anita Blake?) that sell a lot because they're verging on (or are) erotica.  I also understand it has alienated some of the author's fanbase as she has gotten more explicit over time.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 23, 2013)

Focusing on the emotional angle is certainly valid, although a lot of authors who do that make the whole thing... weird. Like, I get that you don't want to go into the physical bits too much, but when you _avoid _them the whole scene just ends up reading like an acid trip instead of romantic intimacy. There's definitely a balance to be struck when you take that route. Or you could just write fantasy/erotica and have at it. The choice to cast Richard Armitage as Thorin Oakenshield in _The Hobbit_ films has created a great demand that just isn't being filled... _yet_.  *

* Please don't actually do this; I couldn't live with myself if I inspired a story that is to Tolkien as _50 Shades of Grey_ is to _Twilight_.


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## Jess A (Mar 23, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> Normally I don't think about target audiences whenever I write, but my mom has told me that if I ever manage to finish and publish anything, I would enjoy the most success among teenage boys. Certainly my own interests (namely sexy women and action) intersect the most with many adolescent males'. I wonder how they would feel about sex scenes?



I always think of a target audience. I suppose that comes from being a journalist. 

On your book - as a book seller I would be inclined to put books like that (full of explicit sex) up on the top shelf and not in YA fiction.


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## Jess A (Mar 23, 2013)

Ophiucha said:


> The choice to cast Richard Armitage as Thorin Oakenshield in _The Hobbit_ films has created a great demand that just isn't being filled... _yet_.  *
> 
> * Please don't actually do this; I couldn't live with myself if I inspired a story that is to Tolkien as _50 Shades of Grey_ is to _Twilight_.



Ugh I imagine it's too late for that - not just for _The Hobbit_ but _LOTR_ in general...

In fact, if I recall, a friend of mine who was very into Orlando Bloom came across a LOTR fan-fiction that nearly scarred her for life.


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## Chime85 (Mar 23, 2013)

In many ways, a sex scene can be seen as a lazy arc to throw two (or more) characters together. It is a band aid on what cn otherwise be a more emotional and observational relationship between characters. In fact, I'd personally go as far as to say most sex scenes in literature happen because the writer has painted themselves into a corner (we've all been there!.) 

Now, I am discounting romance novels of course. Speaking strictly to the fantasy bone of our writing, do sex scenes really  drive the plot? By all means, sometimes, yes. But, the justification of such a scene dwindles in concern of character building and world design. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not prudish to scenes of an "adult" (I hate emphasized speech!) nature. However, unless it is adding to character, building the world or essentual to the plot, what's the damned point?


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## Devor (Mar 23, 2013)

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> If I'm reading Iamfenian correctly, the point of the sex scene would not necessarily be plot driven but reader driven.  I.e. 50 Shades is popular because its female readers liked the sex scenes and Iamfenian is hoping to tap in to that.



The way to do that would be creating a story in which the sex becomes relevant.  Storytelling is a lot like branding.  If something doesn't match the message you're conveying, it hurts your message.  Sex only sells if it fits.


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## Androxine Vortex (Mar 23, 2013)

I do not ever plan on involving any sex scenes in my books. It's just not a crucial element to my stories and I see no need for it. I never really was into the whole sex/affair/cheating scene that you see in a lot of books/shows/movies. I always hated it because I thought it was a distraction to the plot. Now I'm not going to write a novel and pretend that no one has any desires. I might mention a thing here or there or a character might note how attractive someone else is but most of my stories involve topics such as the redemption of fallen gods or the salvation of the human race, so I don't see how "he cheated on her" is going to spice things up.


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## Feo Takahari (Mar 23, 2013)

I see myself as something akin to a writer for a superhero movie. A good superhero movie may have fights that do nothing to make the story better--that is to say, if the movie cut to after the fight, the story would not suffer. However, a superhero movie should never have fights that make the story worse. If a fight breaks a character's established personality or pushes the story in a bad direction, that fight shouldn't be written, and I apply the same standard for my sex scenes. (This is a lesson I think Richard K. Morgan in particular has failed to learn, since he sometimes writes sex scenes that simply should not occur given the personalities involved.)


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## Chessie (Mar 23, 2013)

If sex is really key to plot and character development especially, then I can see a hinting of sex or even a light skirt through it. Personally, I think sex scenes in literature belong in erotica or romance fiction...not necessarily fantasy. When most readers think fantasy, they think dragon, elves, mages, whatever, not something explicit. Everything has its place and sex is worth writing about yes...but I think many fantasy readers are not expecting sex in their hero tales. I think it also depends on the author and geared audience as stated in previous comments here. Does it fit the characters to let readers into their bedroom? Another thing to consider.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Mar 24, 2013)

I don't really use sex scenes - they usually don't suite the tone and style of what I write.


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## The Dark One (Mar 24, 2013)

Sex scenes are extremely important in my literature. I've written a sort essay for those who are interested called: How to Write an Excellent Bonking Scene.

How to Write an Excellent Bonking Scene | The Book Hammer


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## A. E. Lowan (Mar 24, 2013)

I, for one, do not believe in shutting the door on the reader's face.  It's rude.  I've always thought of the whole "fade to black" thing as lazy writing.  You end up with...

_She woke in the morning, sunlight streaming through the curtains.  Oh what a night!  Her whole outlook on life had changed... blah blah I'm-too-Puritan-to-include-physical-intimancy-so-I'm-going-to-try-to-tell-rather-than-show._

If it suits the development of the characters or the plot for sex to occur, then it will.  Whether this happens on or off screen is going to depend on the needs of the story, of course, as I don't believe in gratuitious anything in story telling.  But if the story calls for it, heck yeah those clothes are hitting the floor!

And going back to the sex vs. violence thing.  How is showing two (or more) people sharing loving, positive physical intimacy somehow "adult" and "taboo," while an act of physical violence be it beating one's wife or blowing someone's head off acceptable for mixed company?  Case in point - I just watched a facinating series called "Warrior Graveyard."  It depicts reanactments of long-ago battles based of forensic evidence.  Great show, highly recommended for the writer.  However, it is graphically violent.  In one scene, an English marine is cut down by a French sailor with a cutlass blow to the face.  The lower potion of his right mandible is sheared off by the force of the blow.  The special effects guys have him lying on the ground, blood gushing from the gaping wound in his face, teeth exposed... and what is the rating on this?  TV-14!  Seriously?!?


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Mar 24, 2013)

> The way to do that would be creating a story in which the sex becomes relevant. Storytelling is a lot like branding. If something doesn't match the message you're conveying, it hurts your message. Sex only sells if it fits.



Agreed, and I would argue that if e.g. you're writing non-YA vampire fiction you pretty much have to include explicit sex scenes, because that's one of the things the readership is looking for when they buy your book.  If you're writing a typical fantasy novel or sci-fi in the Larry Niven vein, explicit sex scenes would be out of place.

And again, if I'm interpreting Iamfenian correctly, they're looking to tap into the 50 Shades audience, which basically means they need to write a story that leads to an expectation among the readership of explicit (and possibly "deviant") sex.  So essentially vampire or (some) werewolf fiction, or romance featuring incredibly wealthy, powerful and handsome young male characters.


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## Ireth (Mar 24, 2013)

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> Agreed, and I would argue that if e.g. you're writing non-YA vampire fiction you pretty much have to include explicit sex scenes, because that's one of the things the readership is looking for when they buy your book.  If you're writing a typical fantasy novel or sci-fi in the Larry Niven vein, explicit sex scenes would be out of place.
> 
> And again, if I'm interpreting Iamfenian correctly, they're looking to tap into the 50 Shades audience, which basically means they need to write a story that leads to an expectation among the readership of explicit (and possibly "deviant") sex.  So essentially vampire or (some) werewolf fiction, or romance featuring incredibly wealthy, powerful and handsome young male characters.



I'm not sure whether my vampire novel will end up falling under the YA banner or not, and if it doesn't, I really don't want to add explicit sex scenes because someone says I "have" to. :/


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## Chessie (Mar 24, 2013)

I don't think "fade to black" is being puritan or about shutting the door in the reader's face. If the author has moved the tale along to a point where a scene of intimacy is warranted, then they should go through with it. If there hasn't been a build up to sex then to suddenly place it in doesn't seem appropriate. I don't think violence in writing is better than sex. Its all part of life. Just like with anything else, things that happen in tbe story should fit the plot, etc. If the OP is writing a tale that warrants sex and the reader expects it to be so when he/she opens up that book, then there is nothing wrong with that.


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Mar 24, 2013)

Ireth, that's up to you and your readers/fan base.  I'm just saying that my impression is that that particular sub-genre is leaning a certain way.  I could easily be wrong and I'm sure a good writer could carve out their own path.


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## Alexandra (Mar 24, 2013)

Ireth said:


> The only reason I'd consider actually including a sex scene in my writing is if it actually serves a plot purpose...



That restriction/qualifier should apply to every scene in your book, whether the scene is sexual or not. Every sex scene, fight scene, conversation, lengthy description, et al. If said collection of words does not serve a purpose tis superfluous and should be edited out...unless you're a verbose Victorian author and are being paid by the word (Dickens) or hope to be :wink:


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## Mindfire (Mar 24, 2013)

Alexandra said:


> Why is sex more contentious than violence? No one thinks twice about describing how one character guts another like a fish but the friendly poke is verbotten!?! Why?



I'll try to avoid derailing the thread by getting religious on everyone. 

Simply put: violence can be impersonal and clinical, while most of us consider sex a deeply private and personal thing, which makes it a more sensitive subject.


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## Zero Angel (Mar 24, 2013)

These are interesting things to talk about. I was always under the impression that the idea that violence is OK but sex isn't was an American thing mostly and that other countries viewed adult content as being adult content or that nudity was OK but violence isn't? 

I usually imply the sex because I guess my goal is not to titillate, but rather to inspire usually. I find heroic deeds in battle inspiring. It's a little more difficult to be heroic in the bedroom. In my next work, _The Warrior's Way_, I am going outside my comfort zone and writing in at least one sex scene, but more because I need the intimacy shown between the two characters so that there is not a distance between the act and the reader's comprehension of it. It's the normal show vs tell pros and cons. Use them to establish the desired amount of distance (whether that's emotional or physical distance) between the events and characters of the book and the readers.


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## CupofJoe (Mar 24, 2013)

I don't have problem with writing or reading the sexual act but most of the time it is usually very boring. Unless your character has a dysfunction and focusing on that is the point of the scene, sex scenes are usually become "Mary Sue" scenes... everything perfect and nothing at all messy... a battle scene isn't exciting or interesting if you know your hero is going to win and win easily. There is no drama.
It wasn't in a fantasy book but the best sex I've ever read was the  internal monologue of a young and more than slightly hopeless man during sex with the woman he had dreamed about for years.  There were pauses, gaps, random and not so random words, hopes and aspirations and even pleas  to the Gods that let the reader imply the actual acts. It was all context. It was funny,  poignant and very effective.


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## advait98 (Mar 24, 2013)

I'm of the opinion that when sex is not used for plot purposes in fantasy, it slips farther and farther from assuming the fantasy genre, and closer to erotica, with a fantasy background.

 Now, I've never read any of these explicit novels (I'm a minor, and I stick to the rules), but that just strengthens my opinion somehow, and I steadfastly oppose sex with no plot connection. If there's no point to it, why put it there? It should be treated as any normal scene with just the distinguishing factor of it being inappropriate for certain audiences.


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## Feo Takahari (Mar 24, 2013)

I'm of the opinion that a notable (albeit minority) percentage of fantasy _is_ erotica, subtype gornography. As much as I dislike some of the connections people draw between sex and violence, I don't think there's a substantial difference between spurting blood and spurting . . . you know. (And truth be told, I'm happier writing a cute little sex scene between a loving couple than a bloody battle.)

Of course, that doesn't make much of a difference to those of you who don't write sex _or_ gore.


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## TheokinsJ (Mar 24, 2013)

I guess before writing these scenes you have to think carefully about how this will affect the audience you are aiming the book at (Will this mean that you will lose a large number of children/teenager readers). Also if it's not vital to the story, I see no need for it. I see sex scenes as something that authors put in to make their books more popular, no other reason. Think of all the great fantasies that never had sex scenes and that were so great. That said, if it plays an important role in the story, or if it adds to the development of a character and is written well, it can work really well.


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## Kit (Mar 24, 2013)

I can barely write a makeout scene, much less a sex scene... but my WIP has my MC pursuing another character for a long time, and I feel like if there's no payoff when she finally gets him, readers will feel....unfulfilled.


PS: From now on, whenever I start a new thread, I'm going to title it "sex" just to be sure to get everyone to click on it.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 24, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> I'm of the opinion that a notable (albeit minority) percentage of fantasy _is_ erotica, subtype gornography. As much as I dislike some of the connections people draw between sex and violence, I don't think there's a substantial difference between spurting blood and spurting . . . you know. (And truth be told, I'm happier writing a cute little sex scene between a loving couple than a bloody battle.)
> 
> Of course, that doesn't make much of a difference to those of you who don't write sex _or_ gore.



Goodness yes, some fantasy writers I know could make horror writers go pale with the graphic violence they put in their works. I read a fantasy story not long ago where the main character had to get his arm sawed off, and they showed that in full detail. Bones split through the elbows and all. Given the circumstances, I wouldn't say it was out of place - it was a traumatic moment for the character, and one that ended in him not having an arm for the rest of the story - but it did take up a few pages, no less than any sex scene I have ever read.

Speaking of horror and erotica, anyone read China Mieville's _Perdido Street Station_? There is a sex scene in that which I somehow doubt was meant to titillate and certainly didn't break character or tone. It was traumatizing and I think everyone whose ever read the book was scarred by the scene.


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Mar 24, 2013)

For what it's worth, I think Kit won the thread.


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## Kit (Mar 24, 2013)

Thanks. 

In all seriousness, though, I have seen some situations where readers were giving feedback on a work, and the author had done one of those "fade to black" things.... and the readers were like, "Are you kidding?!??! Is that all we get? Oh man!" The longer the situation had been drawn out, and the more invested they are in the characters, it seems that many of them really want that "payoff".

They want it bad!


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## Chessie (Mar 24, 2013)

Yeah, I agree with you on that! If there is a long chase then the pay off should be sweeter. Goes back to the idea that if you build up for it, you better provide sort of thing.

Haha even if people don't think sex scenes belong in writing, we all still clicked on the sexiest thread alive right now!


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## soulless (Mar 24, 2013)

Out of the five novelish stories I currently have in my head, and the couple of shorts too actually, there's only one scene of sex I need for pushing my major character into a discovery, I haven't really thought of having any sex elsewhere altho I'm sure there could be some of that business going on it wouldn't be important to the plot.


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## Devora (Mar 24, 2013)

But do writers need to be explicit if they include a sex scene, or can you simply express the emotion that goes on within the scene?


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## Steerpike (Mar 24, 2013)

Devora said:


> But do writers need to be explicit if they include a sex scene, or can you simply express the emotion that goes on within the scene?



I guess it depends on what kind of story you're writing. If you are writing an explicit story (and those seem to sell), then of course you go that route. It is part of the draw for those readers. I tend not to write explicit scenes of that nature, because that's not what my stories are about.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 24, 2013)

I don't know if you need to be explicit (unless you _want _to be), but I really don't like it when there is no physical description. Not out of need for titillation (I'd just read fanfiction if I wanted that), but because they just don't read very well without any. I've read some sex scenes that were nothing but ~feelings~ and it just reads like a two page fever dream instead of a sex scene. You may not need to get into the slot a's and plug b's, but if it's just emotions and vague light touches it almost never makes a lick of sense. Also, I find the high on the feelings once to be a little too perfect, usually. I guess that can work if you're trying to pull a really cheesy romantic angle, but that sort of thing can easily break the tone of the story.

And really, I think tone and style are more important than anything else. Feo mentioned gore before, and I think it is valid here. Because 'fading to black' and romantic euphorias might be good for the fantasy where every slice of a sword ends with the soldier falling to the ground, no fuss no muss, but it's a bit out of place to be coy if you spend the rest of your story describing the dangling bits of flesh and gushing blood after a dragon takes a chunk out of your comic relief character. Do what works best for your story, but be consistent about it.


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## Feo Takahari (Mar 24, 2013)

Ophiucha said:


> I don't know if you need to be explicit (unless you _want _to be), but I really don't like it when there is no physical description. Not out of need for titillation (I'd just read fanfiction if I wanted that), but because they just don't read very well without any. I've read some sex scenes that were nothing but ~feelings~ and it just reads like a two page fever dream instead of a sex scene. You may not need to get into the slot a's and plug b's, but if it's just emotions and vague light touches it almost never makes a lick of sense. Also, I find the high on the feelings once to be a little too perfect, usually. I guess that can work if you're trying to pull a really cheesy romantic angle, but that sort of thing can easily break the tone of the story.
> 
> And really, I think tone and style are more important than anything else. Feo mentioned gore before, and I think it is valid here. Because 'fading to black' and romantic euphorias might be good for the fantasy where every slice of a sword ends with the soldier falling to the ground, no fuss no muss, but it's a bit out of place to be coy if you spend the rest of your story describing the dangling bits of flesh and gushing blood after a dragon takes a chunk out of your comic relief character. Do what works best for your story, but be consistent about it.



This is an interesting way of looking at it, but I might actually go in the opposite direction. Graphic violence creates a lessening feeling--"This is a setting where life has little value." I think a properly done sex scene can build investment in a character and a relationship--"These people are cute together, and I want them to survive."* The two can contrast each other, but the latter may still be useful in a story that doesn't rely much on the former.

* I am here excluding rape scenes, which to me are more like scenes of violence than standard sex. I'm also not considering hatesex, although that could certainly be an interesting way of building characters.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 25, 2013)

Also a valid perspective.

Gratuitous detail of _any _sort is honestly something of a standard in this genre. If it's not sex or violence, it's enough details about what the characters are eating that you can make, not one, but _two_, entire cookbooks out of your series. I mean, I tend to agree that nothing should be included if it isn't necessary, but I hate how people treat sex scenes like they are inherently more unnecessary than anything else. They can be used to build character, titillate, have a moment of relief or humour, traumatize the readers forever (*_China Mieville_*), further the plot or a (romantic?) subplot, and even worldbuild (because safe sex is great sex and I'd like to know how your characters protect against fantasy!chlamydia). And if it is just pointless in every way, well, Tolkien spent pages writing out poems in Elvish. This is fantasy, not literary fiction. *

* Unless you are writing magic realism or something.


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## The Dark One (Mar 25, 2013)

Gratuitous anything is bad writing. Bad sex scenes are usually bad because the writer has (for whatever reason) disengaged from the reality of what is happening. In real life, sex usually has consequences (especially when done for the first time, as so many literary sex scenes are). Two paths have been brought together (even if only temporarily) and this has to be dealt with - people change after they've 'done it' - and this has consequences for a story. If the writer is not properly dealing with the set up or the consequences, then I guarantee they are not really in the room with the characters when they write the sex scene.

Let me ask a question of those who've written sex scenes: _Removed by Moderator_


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## Zero Angel (Mar 25, 2013)

The Dark One said:


> Gratuitous anything is bad writing. Bad sex scenes are usually bad because the writer has (for whatever reason) disengaged from the reality of what is happening. In real life, sex usually has consequences (especially when done for the first time, as so many literary sex scenes are). Two paths have been brought together (even if only temporarily) and this has to be dealt with - people change after they've 'done it' - and this has consequences for a story. If the writer is not properly dealing with the set up or the consequences, then I guarantee they are not really in the room with the characters when they write the sex scene.
> 
> Let me ask a question of those who've written sex scenes: REMOVED



Hi The Dark One. It seems as though you're being a little pointed here. I'd say that I don't know every book or story and don't know if gratuitous something might be good for it or not. I will agree it's hard to do gratuity appropriately depending on how you're defining gratuity and what you're trying to accomplish.

"Gratuitous" is defined as "uncalled for, lacking good reason" or "given for free", so if you mean that the sex did not have a good reason to include from the author's standpoint, then that's redundant with saying it's bad writing. If it was not done with good reason from the characters, then that depends on how it's done. If the sex was done free of charge on the other hand, then I don't see a problem with that. And lastly, if it appears uncalled for or lacking good reason from your perspective, then I also don't see a problem with that.

I also think the question you've asked is a loaded one or at least a leading one.

Finally, it doesn't have to have consequences and consequences don't have to be discussed even if it does have them. It all depends on what your story is about, what your story is trying to accomplish and other considerations that you take. If you're saying that you don't want to read stories where consequences are not discussed and sex isn't meaningful/life-changing, then I respect your opinion, but I also respect the writers that want to tell those stories.

It's possible I'm responding to what appeared to be a charged/judgemental post where there was no charge or judgement (likely even, I just woke up after 3 hours sleep ), and if so, I apologize.


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## Devor (Mar 25, 2013)

The Dark One said:


> In real life, sex usually has consequences (especially when done for the first time, as so many literary sex scenes are). Two paths have been brought together (even if only temporarily) and this has to be dealt with - people change after they've 'done it' - and this has consequences for a story.



Dark One, first, just a heads up that I removed your question.  It was a little borderline on explicit.

But I agree wholeheartedly with your point.  If the sex is really relevant to the story, then it will develop the characters.  There are always consequences, although they're not always negative, or as clear as a pregnancy.  It changes the relationship.

I also want to respond to a few people who have said it has to build the _plot_.  I think that's missing something.

Plot =/= Story

The plot is basically a list of events that happen in your novel.  A novel is about the relationship between your characters and your plot and your setting.  Sex can be relevant to that _story_ without having the sex turn someone into a vampire or have the characters arrested for adultery or otherwise be a big turning point in your plot.


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## Devora (Mar 25, 2013)

Devor said:


> Dark One, first, just a heads up that I removed your question.  It was a little borderline on explicit.
> 
> But I agree wholeheartedly with your point.  If the sex is really relevant to the story, then it will develop the characters.  There are always consequences, although they're not always negative, or as clear as a pregnancy.  It changes the relationship.
> 
> ...



I think the major problem most writers have about writing sex scenes in stories is that 90% of the time they're just pure _fluff_. If you were to slim down the sex scenes in 50 shades of Grey, You'd probably have a 60 page book.

The common argument I'm seeing in the thread is that usually sex scenes (usually the explicit ones) don't strengthen the story and usually come off a mindlessly self-indulgent tangent.


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## Devor (Mar 25, 2013)

Devora said:


> The common argument I'm seeing in the thread is that usually sex scenes (usually the explicit ones) don't strengthen the story and usually come off a mindlessly self-indulgent tangent.



I'm not really advocating for more or fewer scenes.  I guess I'm saying:

 - Don't use them if you don't want to.
 - They should only have as much or as little detail as befits the tone of your story.
 - Only use them if they advance the story, which includes more than just the plot.
 - Understand that it should change/develop the characters involved.
 - If it doesn't advance the story or fit the tone, cut it.


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## Mindfire (Mar 25, 2013)

Devora said:


> I think the major problem most writers have about writing sex scenes in stories is that 90% of the time they're just pure _fluff_. If you were to slim down the sex scenes in 50 shades of Grey, You'd probably have a 60 page book.
> 
> The common argument I'm seeing in the thread is that usually sex scenes (usually the explicit ones) don't strengthen the story and usually come off a mindlessly self-indulgent tangent.



I'm not sure we should compare the kind of writing our members mostly focus on with 50 Shades, which is literally a glorified PWP fanfiction. Criticizing 50 Shades for gratuitous titillation and lack of plot is like criticizing a dung beetle for rolling dung.


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## Rob P (Mar 25, 2013)

I remember seeing an interview by GRRM about the sex scenes in GoT. He mentioned that he could describe in great gory detail how an axe was driven into someone's head without anyone batting an eye but just mention sex, even a little and everyone goes nuts.

His rationale was that these characters have lives and sex is a part of their lives, whether it is exposed or not. Part of living involves this act and all the consequences that lead from it.

Writing classes, books and self-help bits and pieces tend to apply broad strokes to this area suffice to say that you tread lightly. A sex scene badly written is just about the worst scene that could ever be written badly. Also, not everyone is comfortable with writing such scenes, even loving and intimate ones.

We deal in bringing forth the emotions of our characters and tease those of our readers, both of whom experience love and sex in differing detail but experience it nonetheless. To believe they don't think about such things, desire such things, enjoy or even hate such things is to ignore a part of their emotional make-up.

So if you are confident in handling this material and it has a part to play in your story then it should be used but only up to the amount needed and no more. If you are not comfortable then don't include it or refer to it but keeping details slight. The emotional aspects afterwards will need to be addressed though.

I have used such scenes but generally they have only been used just enough to make the point some with greater detail than others. I have not spent more than 400 words in total over six intimate scenes where sex was involved.


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## Zero Angel (Mar 25, 2013)

Devor said:


> I'm not really advocating for more or fewer scenes.  I guess I'm saying:
> 
> - Don't use them if you don't want to.
> - They should only have as much or as little detail as befits the tone of your story.
> ...



I agree with the exception about "changing/developing" the characters. It could be an example of the character acting as the character and showcasing this to the reader. Maybe it changes their opinion of the character, but the character him/her/itself does not need to change.



Mindfire said:


> I'm not sure we should compare the kind of writing our members mostly focus on with 50 Shades, which is literally a glorified PWP fanfiction. Criticizing 50 Shades for gratuitous titillation and lack of plot is like criticizing a dung beetle for rolling dung.



There's a big subset of fantasy/speculative fiction that has erotica content and themes. I'm not sure what PWP means (at work so a little leery to Google it), but it was a fanfiction of a fantasy in the first place, so that right there shows you that talking about 50 shades is at least tangentially related to writing fantasy. 

With the exception of the few works from members I've been lucky enough to read, I'm really not sure what everyone's writing styles and preferred subgenres are on Mythic Scribes.


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## Mindfire (Mar 25, 2013)

Zero Angel said:


> There's a big subset of fantasy/speculative fiction that has erotica content and themes. I'm not sure what PWP means (at work so a little leery to Google it), but it was a fanfiction of a fantasy in the first place, so that right there shows you that talking about 50 shades is at least tangentially related to writing fantasy.
> 
> With the exception of the few works from members I've been lucky enough to read, I'm really not sure what everyone's writing styles and preferred subgenres are on Mythic Scribes.



PWP means "Plot? What Plot?" It's a common fanfiction label used for a story that's basically What It Says On the Tin: sleazy, plotless, and blatantly self-indulgent.


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## Ireth (Mar 25, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> PWP means "Plot? What Plot?" It's a common fanfiction label used for a story that's basically What It Says On the Tin: sleazy, plotless, and blatantly self-indulgent.



Actually it can mean either "P0rn with Plot" or "Plot with P0rn". Either way, pretty much what you said.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 25, 2013)

I love writing intimate scenes between characters.  I have to admit, I've made a lot more love in my life than war, so the scenes themselves come faster to me than fights, but also, I think there's something really genuine about having attraction a part of a story.  

Now, maybe I'm a weird one, but don't most people look at someone who catches their eye?  Don't you flirt a little (even if you're married) with a cute waiter or person in line next to you in the store?  It's a part of being a living, breathing creature.

Haha, if you ask me, it's way more legitimate to write a book without magic, creatures, even religion than it is to write characters who do not have sexual desires.  It's nature.  And while many people can stifle those voices that drive them to give a stranger the key to their hotel room or sneak into the bathroom with a hottie in a bar... we all have those thoughts and feelings that make us notice and desire intimate contact.  

I think the point is, that a character will do what  character will do.  if I show a woman who frequently gives away her room key to strangers... it speaks about her character, maybe her financial situation.  Probably even her self-respect.  

If I show a character who glances at a handsome courtier but retains her stoic dignity, that too speaks about her character, her nature and her willpower.  It's all perspective. 

Now as for writing the scenes... in some cases, I show two people waking next to each other or turning out the lights.  More often, I show the extent of the scene, from the POV that has the most to gain/ lose because of the sex itself.

Sometimes, I go for the whole enchilda, detailing every movement, every glance and every comment.  I wrote a scene that was about 3500 words, where the characters (strangers) talk briefly, jump into bed, and then conclude with a heartfelt moment after.  I have to say, to some on this site, that's mind-blowing.  I've been criticized for over-doing it.  But for anyone who's read the scene... they only had nice things to say.  So there you go.  Avoid a scene because it's too long?  Trim it up and pare it down so it's not too graphic?  I vote "no". HAHA


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 25, 2013)

I should mention in the scene I detailed above, I accomplished the 3500 word scene without being grotesque, disgusting or using words that made me feel like cringing.  I avoid being too scientific or "Harlequin".  I like a good honest sex scene if anyone is taking requests.  When I write intimate scenes, I try to write it just how people do it.  No holds barred, no over-egging the pudding.  I like it kinda raw, a little awkward, and positively real.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 25, 2013)

In fact, I think that's where many sex scenes go wrong... They portray the women as helpless virgins and the men as womanizing rogues.  I've been accused of making my leading males a little too "ideal" but what can I say?  I've known a lot of great guys...

I think the key to making a romantic scene work is knowing the characters and portraying the lovemaking like you would anything else THAT PERSON does.  Sure, maybe he's great at swinging a sword, but scared of falling in love.  Or maybe he thinks she's never kissed a man before but then reveals she knows her way around a man's body like an expert and reads his cues with apparent ease..  

I think my best love scenes were the ones I threw something unexpected into.  Like one newlywed couple that waits to seal the deal (for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is trust issues) and when they finally go to bed, she asks him if they could move from the bed out onto the balcony.  Yeh, that was one of my favorites.  OR, in one, (where two teenagers are fooling round in the garden, groping and what have you) her father barges in and throws the boy out, telling him to get lost.  Or another (not a sex scene) where I have I have a man kiss a goddess.  He's terrified, shaking in his boots and his friend's watching.  After, the friend says, "You're a braver man than I am.  What in the world were you thinking?"  The MC replies, "Sure, you love her as her followers, treat her as your mother, but she longs to be loved as a woman..."    The goddess does him a special favor for his observant understanding.  

However and whyever you write a love scene in, it needs to be fitting to the characters first and foremost, but it also needs to be entertaining.  For me, intimacy is in every story, because it's in everyday life.  But, it can't all be pulling  stranger by their collar into a dark room and ripping their clothes off with your teeth.  That gets old and has been done.  If you're like me and enjoy writing intimate scenes, I'd advise you to think about what sex is really like and throw some of the real into the fantasy.  I know for me, it makes it a whole lot more fun to write and read later.


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## Devora (Mar 25, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> I'm not sure we should compare the kind of writing our members mostly focus on with 50 Shades, which is literally a glorified PWP fanfiction. Criticizing 50 Shades for gratuitous titillation and lack of plot is like criticizing a dung beetle for rolling dung.



My point was that sometimes the details in sex scenes don't amount to anything but extra padding for book/story. It would be possible for one to include a sex scene, but without so much explicit detail.

50 shades wasn't the best example to use, but I was only using it to get my point across.


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Mar 25, 2013)

> 50 shades wasn't the best example to use, but I was only using it to get my point across.



I'd actually say Fifty Shades is a great example for this topic.  It sold over 40 million copies worldwide and, as you say, without the sex scenes it would be maybe 60 pages long.  The reason people buy it is for the sex scenes.  I'd say it has essentially taken erotica and turned it into a new, mainstream, New York Times best-selling genre.  

One can speculate as to why this has happened.  One theory that I give a bit of credence is that with the advent of electronic readers (Kindle, Nook, iPad, etc), it is now possible for people to buy and consume erotic fiction without anyone knowing they're doing so.

Personally I don't write explicit sex scenes in my stories because in a strange way I feel connected to and protective of my characters.  It's hard to explain, but I feel like what they do in intimate moments is their business and not the reader's.  So while I may show the lead-up followed by fade to black, or show the morning after, the sex itself I don't intrude on.

By the same token, there can be a fair bit of violence and combat in my stories but I don't get graphic about it.  Maybe I'm just squeamish or something.


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## Feo Takahari (Mar 25, 2013)

Possibly off-topic, but has anyone else noticed that Internet fiction and published fiction reverse what's considered more weird and less weird with sex scenes? In Internet fiction, you're considered not very weird if you read or write vanilla het, and more weird if you read or write fetishy sex. In published fiction, books with vanilla sex are usually considered a little iffy, but critically praised works often have bizarre and fetishistic sex scenes.* (The idea seems to be that, since this sex is too weird for most readers to enjoy, it must have a deeper meaning.)

*If you want to know exactly what I'm talking about, read reviews of _The Evolution of Bruno Littlemore_, then read the book itself. I don't think I'd even be allowed to describe some of the sex in that book. Or, for a lesser example, note how weirdly written even the vanilla sex in _Middlesex_ is. The closest I can think of to a normal sex scene in a recent critically praised book is the one in _Atonement_.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 26, 2013)

That's an interesting take on it.  I mentioned before that my best ones were ones I threw something unexpected in.  But I never considered that vanilla sex scenes might be more preferred for whatever reason.  Hmm.. Interesting.  

My favorites are realistic, like, especially with awkwardness.  I know that's certainly not the same as fetishes.  But I wouldn't feel comfortable writing fetishes (which I think crosses the line into entertaining through sexual content with the intent to arouse a reader).  My love scenes aren't meant to have that sort of specific effect.  More to connect to a reader.  WHo can't relate to that awkward moment when you miss and kiss someone's nose in the dark or a guy who holds his weight weird because he's afraid he's going to crush you.  Or, that moment after, where you're wondering what's next.  Do we cuddle or can I get up and leave?  HAHA  Yeah.  i try to keep it real.  I want a reader to smile and think, "I know exactly how he/she feels right now."


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## Mindfire (Mar 26, 2013)

I think Caged Maiden is on to something. Sex scenes aren't my cup of tea, but if it's to be done, I like her way of doing it. (That came out so wrong. It sounded better in my head. Apologies.) I think it should be about connecting to the characters, not about using titillation as a selling point.


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## Sheilawisz (Mar 26, 2013)

I am not even going to describe what the Aylar reproductive rituals are like, but I'll tell you this: It's completely inhuman, and if you described to Aylars all the complexity and complications of human sexuality, they would laugh for two weeks and then tell you to stop making up impossible things.

Now, regarding the descriptions of sexual encounters in Fantasy about human characters:

I think that, unless you are writing Romantic Fantasy or maybe some sort of Fantasy Erotica, there is absolutely no need to write that style of scenes in Fantasy stories.


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## Jamber (Mar 26, 2013)

My favourite sex scene is what's left out at the end of Jane Eyre.
Ooh, except for the strip poker Michelin Man scene in _The Crying of Lot 49._ And Rachel Pollack's _Unquenchable Fire_ sex scene with pin-sticking and laughter.
I can't think why someone would go to the trouble of writing a sex scene if they can't be bothered using it to advance the story somehow?
In erotica, sex is the story, but we don't generally expect that in fantasy. Even _The Many Coloured Land_ (which had many sex scenes) used those scenes thematically (passivity, persuasion, co-option in enslavement). Anne Rice's _Servant of the Bones_ slipped into pure erotica territory near the end, and coincidentally fell down as a story at that point.
It just seems a wasted opportunity, to me.


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## The Dark One (Mar 26, 2013)

Zero Angel said:


> Hi The Dark One. It seems as though you're being a little pointed here. I'd say that I don't know every book or story and don't know if gratuitous something might be good for it or not. I will agree it's hard to do gratuity appropriately depending on how you're defining gratuity and what you're trying to accomplish.
> 
> "Gratuitous" is defined as "uncalled for, lacking good reason" or "given for free", so if you mean that the sex did not have a good reason to include from the author's standpoint, then that's redundant with saying it's bad writing. If it was not done with good reason from the characters, then that depends on how it's done. If the sex was done free of charge on the other hand, then I don't see a problem with that. And lastly, if it appears uncalled for or lacking good reason from your perspective, then I also don't see a problem with that.
> 
> ...



Have to say I was amazed that my question was deleted. It is a perfectly natural question for this thread and not remotely explicit. I didn't ask people to describe in gory details how their writing made them feel - I simply asked did they feel anything. This is critical to the type of writing we're discussing.


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## LadyofKaos (Mar 26, 2013)

I like a little sex with my fantasy and fantasy with my sex.


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## Mindfire (Mar 26, 2013)

The Dark One said:


> Have to say I was amazed that my question was deleted. It is a perfectly natural question for this thread and not remotely explicit. I didn't ask people to describe in gory details how their writing made them feel - I simply asked did they feel anything. This is critical to the type of writing we're discussing.



I didn't see your question, but if the mods junked it, there's a good reason. Also, I'm guessing it wasn't so much the question itself as what the question could _lead to._


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## Feo Takahari (Mar 26, 2013)

For whatever reason, the mods seem to be very wary of any variant of a word that rhymes with "faster skate". Questions that discuss rape, torture, etc. may remain intact, but questions that contain that word or reference the idea behind it don't seem to last for very long.


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## Kit (Mar 26, 2013)

ROFL.

Faster Skate. I now have a new favorite euphemism. I had to give you rep for that.


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## Zero Angel (Mar 26, 2013)

It took me like 20 seconds to run through the possibilities for "rhymes with faster skate"


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## Mindfire (Mar 26, 2013)

Zero Angel said:


> It took me like 20 seconds to run through the possibilities for "rhymes with faster skate"



 you must be bizarrely good at rhyming things.


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## Nihal (Mar 26, 2013)

The downside of not having English as mother tongue: I'm still scratching my head. D:
I can think in one possibility, but it doesn't sounds too polemic to my ears.


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## Kit (Mar 26, 2013)

I got it as soon as I said it aloud.


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## Kit (Mar 26, 2013)

I think Feo means that sometimes you reach your destination faster when you skate alone.  :wink:


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## Zero Angel (Mar 26, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> you must be bizarrely good at rhyming things.



I thought that was slow! The  was sarcastic.

But thanks for assuming that what I am good at is rhyming and not skating fast


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## Nihal (Mar 26, 2013)

Ooooooooooooh. LOL. Now I feel like...


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## Penpilot (Mar 26, 2013)

Oh gosh the mods are going to erase this but I can't stop my fingers from typing.  I just faster skated here and boy are my arms tired. 

Sorry Sorry.... sorry ... sorry... sorry...:ifeellikecrap:


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## Devora (Mar 26, 2013)

Isn't this supposed to be a serious thread?


Personally, if i include some sort of sex scene, i'm not gonna go into explicit details, even though i am capable of doing so. I find that it derails the story from moving and forces it to stay still when you go into too much detail.


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## Zero Angel (Mar 26, 2013)

@Devora: ...wait, there are such things as serious threads?


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## Kit (Mar 26, 2013)

Zero Angel said:


> But thanks for assuming that what I am good at is rhyming and not skating fast



Twenty seconds is skating a little *too* fast, if you ask me.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 26, 2013)

I'll have to stop using that word now... I often speak of fasterskating as a method of some writers who use their words to please themselves rather than a reader.  Like this:  "I met a guy once who wrote his whole book in Orcish and then included a glossary in the back so you could look up words and translate them.  What in the world was he thinking?  If that's not a case of appalling fasterskation, I don't know what is.  No reader would want to rad the book from a glossary!"

I'll have to curb my felonious use of the word....

Okay back on track...

 I read historical romance.  I totally understand how words can make even a seasoned reader like me blush and feel awkward.  Some of those novels are trashy beyond reason.  But, I like the graphic nature of my love scenes.  I try very hard to express the real way two people interact and it's a part of life.  Sure I might say something like, "She slipped her hand down the back of his trousers..."  Without being graphic... but I feel like the way the characters interact needs to be genuine.  As humans, we are drawn to other people, especially ones we're attracted to.  While I'm not advocating putting love scenes into every story because it's not called for, I'm just saying that the scenes I write that go the distance deserve the justice their weight carries.    There's nothing in my stories that should actually arouse a reader, and I would feel sort of icky if they did inspire someone to for some reason act out the events... weird.  but, I think avoiding the graphic nature of the male-female dynamic can be as much a disservice to a love story as maybe going a tad overboard.  

I didn't mean for that to be personally directed at anyone, I realize I sort of did it. I just wanted to let people know it's okay to either write the scenes for real or gloss over them.  It should be more about what the author is comfortable with than perhaps the almost derogatory way of saying, "I'll never do THAT."  I've done it.  And I love it.  There's ways to write sexy scenes with class.  I think the intent will show.


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## Mindfire (Mar 26, 2013)

I think you guys just faster skated all over the English language.


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## Zero Angel (Mar 26, 2013)

@Caged Maiden: That's the appropriate use of that word though -_- like how I describe Quentin Tarentino's directorial style. Anytime I watch one of his films, although enjoyable, I can never stop feeling like I am watching Quentin Tarentino fasterskate over every scene.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 26, 2013)

haha @ Zero

I think I've fully transmuted and adopted fasterskation as a replacement for the original word.  At least on this site.  Of course, I'll still use the term self-gratification for lesser degrees, but fasterskation is definitely what some artists do.  The Tarantino example is classic.  It's sucky that the words we use to describe our feelings will inevitably lead to unwanted traffic from people looking for... other things on the internet. 

To any and all languages I've offended... English language, you were bastard before we ever met, but I tender my sincere apology.

I do really feel passionate about the original posting.  I feel badly that we've gone so far off track.  I know we can't really post specifics on this site for many reasons, not the least of which is unwanted traffic, so let me put forth a suggestion.  I do a lot of crits for people in email and share a lot of work as well.  If anyone has an intimate scene they'd like to share or have critted, let's do it.  Shall we air our dirtiest laundry?   I don't want to post my email address on this page, but I'm willing to read and give a crit to anyone struggling with this concept and am happy to share mine.  Let's take this to email if you all want.  We can exchange email addresses in chat or PM.  I think there are a lot of young or timid people here who have brought this up several times and I just want to say, "Don't be embarrassed or avoid love stories because you're afraid to write the nitty-gritty details of it.  For many readers, intimate scenes lend credence to a relationship or ambiance to a scenario.  i've read a ton of romance novels.  I daresay, nothing frightens or upsets me.  Sure, it'll be a tad weird to read a scene like that out of context, but I've shared my intimate scenes with a few people and their crits were amazingly helpful.  Like, which words put them off or how much detail struck a good balance.  If these are serious concerns people have, we can easily move this to email and allow people who need help and are afraid to ask for it, a safe place free of judgement.


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## SeverinR (Mar 27, 2013)

Alexandra said:


> By the way, your male vamp has satyriasis, only women can be nymphomaniacs, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.



Never knew the words were specific to gender.
In some fantasy movies(b or worse) they seem to throw in nudity or sex for no other reason then to have them in the movie, and I think in some fantasy books they do it for the same reason. Their tough or angelic character decides to give herself to the male main character, or even worse just some handsome extra.

Have not written sex scenes yet. Most of my WIPs are "coming of age" and their sexuality is not the center learning.  
Maybe the second book of each might.
I have a womanizer secondary character, with implied actions, that character goes on and on about his friend at the bar that is really a dragon changeling, that is trying to turndown an ammorous female. "He likes the big girls!"(dragons) Until the female main character finally yells at him.
Thats another aspect of sexuality, why animals/beasts would want to have sex with human/humanoid females.  He finds females interesting to talk to, but would never think of sex with them.  
I sometimes think sex is throwing a bone to the "stereotypical nerds", the ones that read comic books, never seen female naked, and worked on computers, before computers were normal.  I think alot of people outside the genre, still think fantasy genre are made up of these people, thus they feel they have to include the grat. sex scene or at least show the hot female MC topless, if not regularly dressed up in tight revealing leather or plate armor.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 27, 2013)

I think it may become a forum in-joke after this.

And yes, same, particularly if you are interested in writing something with an LGBTQ+ angle. Everyone is free to shoot me a PM or an email if you have my address. I've read my fair share of erotica, and before I started doing editing for a bit of money on the side, I used to just critique people's fanfiction - 99% of which was an elaborate excuse for a sex scene. It shouldn't feel too weird to share; when it comes to literature, a sex scene really _is _just any other scene, just with a few more words you're probably not using much in the rest of the book. 

Here's a video of Charles Dance (Tywin Lannister, for the GOT fans) reading _50 Shades of Grey_. Just for a laugh.



SeverinR said:


> I sometimes think sex is throwing a bone to the "stereotypical nerds", the ones that read comic books, never seen female naked, and worked on computers, before computers were normal.  I think alot of people outside the genre, still think fantasy genre are made up of these people, thus they feel they have to include the grat. sex scene or at least show the hot female MC topless, if not regularly dressed up in tight revealing leather or plate armor.



Sometimes it definitely reads like that. In feminist circles, we often use the term 'male gaze'. You can usually tell who the target audience for a piece of titillating material was based on where the focus is and how they are described. I often find that when it's written for the nerdy male audience, you have a really odd kind of mixed-message female lead, who walks around barely clothed and maybe even acts a little flirty yet becomes embarrassed and virginal the second she's behind closed doors. I'm not sure why men find that appealing (or why other men _presume _men find that appealing), but I've definitely noticed it in a lot of sex scenes written in the sort of 'Conan the Barbarian'-style fantasy novels.


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## Kit (Mar 27, 2013)

Ophiucha said:


> I often find that when it's written for the nerdy male audience, you have a really odd kind of mixed-message female lead, who walks around barely clothed and maybe even acts a little flirty yet becomes embarrassed and virginal the second she's behind closed doors. I'm not sure why men find that appealing (or why other men _presume _men find that appealing), but I've definitely noticed it in a lot of sex scenes written in the sort of 'Conan the Barbarian'-style fantasy novels.



Because the hot, flirty woman is the fantasy..... but when it gets down to action time, that demographic wants to feel like the male is the experienced, confident, in-charge party.


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## Zero Angel (Mar 27, 2013)

That idea is also related to this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna–whore_complex

Twisted slightly though, but it's there. I always referred to it as the "ambivalence of sluts" before I found out there was a term related to it.


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## Mindfire (Mar 27, 2013)

Ophiucha said:


> I think it may become a forum in-joke after this.
> 
> And yes, same, particularly if you are interested in writing something with an LGBTQ+ angle. Everyone is free to shoot me a PM or an email if you have my address. I've read my fair share of erotica, and before I started doing editing for a bit of money on the side, I used to just critique people's fanfiction - 99% of which was an elaborate excuse for a sex scene. It shouldn't feel too weird to share; when it comes to literature, a sex scene really is just any other scene, just with a few more words you're probably not using much in the rest of the book.
> 
> ...



The reason is not complicated. The target demographic (stereotypical dungeon nerd) wants to fantasize about the kind of woman he has zero chance with (super hot) and what's more he wants to feel desired and appreciated (flirty). But behind closed doors, his insecurities kick in and he doesn't want to feel dominated or emasculated (well... usually *shiver*), so the seductive woman suddenly becomes super innocent, allowing the loser to be manly and in charge. Japan takes this trope up to eleven sometimes.


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## Feo Takahari (Mar 27, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> The reason is not complicated. The target demographic (stereotypical dungeon nerd) wants to fantasize about the kind of woman he has zero chance with (super hot) and what's more he wants to feel desired and appreciated (flirty). But behind closed doors, his insecurities kick in and he doesn't want to feel dominated or emasculated (well... usually *shiver*), so the seductive woman suddenly becomes super innocent, allowing the loser to be manly and in charge. Japan takes this trope up to eleven sometimes.



See also: tsundere. ("She likes you, she just doesn't know how to say it!")

To be fair, I sometimes read romance manga for girls, and though the patterns can be very different, you still see love interests who're portrayed as very desirable paired up with protagonists who're portrayed as very average. Wish fulfillment comes in all shapes and sizes.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 27, 2013)

It could be an age thing, in general. With manga, since you mentioned it, I find a lot of shoujo ('girl's') romance series have the 'average' girl and the ridiculously attractive, aloof guy. Not unlike the inspiration for _50 Shades of Grey_, though I think _Twilight_ is a touch more unhealthy... and in that, they don't have sex until the wedding night. But in josei ('woman's') romance, I find they are usually on more even grounds in terms of attractiveness and socio-economic level. We don't have such hard lines when it comes to separating our fantasy in America, particularly since 'YA' is a relatively new genre (nothing published in Amazing Stories back in the day would have had that distinction, though much of it was read by teenage boys), so it's hard to say that the attitudes towards sex/women are different as the audience grows since the audience is more ill-defined, but I wouldn't be surprised if that is true.

But then, the West seems a bit more strict about sex being _exclusively _adult. YA novels that feature sex scenes often cause a bit of controversy (not fantasy, but the author John Green has complained about this before on his blog/YouTube channel). Holly Black, who writes YA urban fantasy, definitely has some dissenters because of her sexual material and the language the characters use (they cuss a lot).


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## Feo Takahari (Mar 27, 2013)

Holly Black . . . I tried reading _Tithe_ once. It's kind of awful, and I never finished it, but there were only two sexual references I can recall.

In the first, the protagonist thumbed through a pile of manga owned by a male acquaintance, and discovered it was gay porn. There was only one sentence describing the sex.

In the second, said acquaintance "got inside the cloak" of a handsome elf. The protagonist only found out about this after the fact. All she learned about it was that the elf hurt him a bit.

In neither case did it get very explicit--I wouldn't even say there was a "sex scene". Unless there was something later, I don't think there was really much to complain about, unless folks didn't like that gay characters existed.

(Though I do remember there being a _lot_ of profanity . . .)


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## Ophiucha (Mar 27, 2013)

I think the second one, I want to say _Valiant_, had a healthy dose of sex. The scene I remember had the main character and her friend using glamours on each other so that they looked like the other's respective love interest and then had sex (I think the girl's love interest was also a troll, so there's a bit of squick there). I don't think it was super _explicit_, it wasn't getting into the nitty gritty, but it was a lot more physical than emotional in terms of the description.


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## Zero Angel (Mar 28, 2013)

Totally used fasterskatory in another thread +1 :biggrin:


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## AVCortez (Mar 28, 2013)

There is a fair bit of sexual content in my work but I avoid writing explicit scenes. It's unavoidable in a story about adults, I think. But, as the saying goes: sex sells .


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