# Immortality



## Scribe Lord (Sep 25, 2015)

In fantasy we sometimes come across characters who are immortal. Living for such a long time is certainly going to have a massive impact on a character. I've been considering this lately for one of my characters and have been trying figure out _how_ exactly it would impact one's psychology. Obviously this would depend largely on how he or she spent their time and their experiences etc, but can anyone give some general ideas? 

Also, how do you handle your immortal characters?


----------



## Swordfry (Sep 25, 2015)

In my series, there is one immortal character who is never the protagonist of any story aside from some short stories and a few pov chapters. He is a wanderer and a warrior, having been raised as a knight. He really spends most of his time wandering the land and just learning new things. As for psychology: He is an evil character, but has no plans of grandeur like ruling or dominating any land. When he was younger, he was more brash and wanted to watch the world suffer, but has since mellowed out considerably, especially after dealing with a couple real idiots throughout my books. Being immortal, he has a magic enchantment on him that basically regenerates any wound, but at a price. Every regeneration eats away a tiny bit of either his mind or soul, it's really random. His memories don't fade, nor do his actual soul, really more of just his courage and heart. At some point in my series he is found as a rather cowardly hermit, having lost much of his warrior spirit. He is very intelligent, but his mind has slipped a good deal despite his best efforts to keep it sharp. It is also at this point where he begins to become very nihilistic. He used to think himself an agent of a lesser god, only to find out the god exists but literally has no power and never communicates with him. No other being or force has any real effect on him, and he has watched the people of the land repeat themselves time and time again.


----------



## CupofJoe (Sep 25, 2015)

I haven't used an immortal as a major character in anything I have written but I have thought about it.

I made some basic assumptions/deductions [like the base character is a human - one variable at a time]...
Immortality would be lonely. Everyone you know and loves grows old and dies and you travel on by.
I also thought that Immortality is not the same as Invulnerability. Getting ill and hurt time and time again would be wearing and soul destroying. Age and experience might bring wisdom but not intelligence and wisdom is subjective.

I came to two conclusions and then a third...
*Firstly.* They would become very empathic to the needs of individuals and maybe feel they have a deeper insight in to what being human means. They could find a deep love of how humanity strives despite adversity. 

*Secondly.* They would become very isolated. They would have to hide away from people on a daily basis and never form relationships. Increasingly cynical about how humanity never really changes, they would probably begin to hate everyone.

In either case I could foresee a character acting less and less human and more and more [apparently] erratically. 

*My third option* is a mix of the other two. If they were the only Immortal, they would consider themselves "chosen" and have a grown sense of a purpose and a goal they have to achieve. This might moderate their behaviour or it might exasperate it.

In all cases, madness and insanity was what I came out with.


----------



## valiant12 (Sep 25, 2015)

I have a question about writing immortality.

Do immortals  need food and or oxygen.
 For example in LotR Elves are supposed to be immortal and can only die by violent death or if they lose the will to live. If they dont need food why do they produce  lembas. And in greek mythology gods and titans are supposed to be immortal and invincible yet they eat ambrosia and nectar. And in norse mythology gods are depicted eating food and starvation is not listed as one of there weeknesses. And vampires by definition need blood as food, yet very reraly starvation is listed as one of their weaknesses.


----------



## Scribe Lord (Sep 25, 2015)

valiant12 said:


> I have a question about writing immortality.
> 
> Do immortals  need food and or oxygen.
> For example in LotR Elves are supposed to be immortal and can only die by violent death or if they lose the will to live. If they dont need food why do they produce  lembas. And in greek mythology gods and titans are supposed to be immortal and invincible yet they eat ambrosia and nectar. And in norse mythology gods are depicted eating food and starvation is not listed as one of there weeknesses. And vampires by definition need blood as food, yet very reraly starvation is listed as one of their weaknesses.



I'm of the assumption that Immortals need food and oxygen to live just like anyone else. Of course Immortality can probably be defined in different ways. In Lotr the only thing that the elves really don't have to worry about is old age. Any other means of killing them is fair game. Starvation wouldn't really be mentioned as a weakness for the same reason it's not usually mentioned as a weakness for humans. It's a given.


----------



## valiant12 (Sep 25, 2015)

> In Lotr the only thing that the elves really don't have to worry about is old age. Any other means of killing them is fair game. Starvation wouldn't really be mentioned as a weakness for the same reason it's not usually mentioned as a weakness for humans. It's a given.



If my memory serves me correctly they are also resistant to sickness.


----------



## Garren Jacobsen (Sep 26, 2015)

My primary problem with immortality is that people think this makes them invincible. It doesn't. I see no where that says lopping off limbs, blasting them into space into the sun specifically, or tying them up and putting them at the bottom of the ocean, or combining any of the methods of incapacitation listed above or not listed at all but still viable for dealing with an immortal person, will not keep a good immortal down. Also, this would make the immortal nuts, invariably so.


----------



## FifthView (Sep 26, 2015)

When I think about the effects on psychology of immortality, I begin by considering the effects on psychology of mortality.  And then I remove the latter.

I believe that the reality of mortality has severe effects on most people.  In fact, I believe that a large portion of the "problems" in our world are a result of the reality of mortality.  Various reactions to the often-unspoken fear of mortality exist.  From ambition and avarice (to "beat the clock"), to fear (of others, of one's own ineffectuality and/or weakness), to miserliness (stockpiling supplies and refusal to share, because of some future possibility of want and dire exigencies), to cruelty and violence (a solution to premature death, the knowledge that others are dangerous _and this danger can be removed_; see "fear" above.)   And so forth.  Not everyone reacts in the most extreme negative ways, but most do have some underlying psychology affected by the knowledge of mortality.

I suspect that there is no single reaction to being immortal that would be common to all who are immortal, that there would be variation.  Also I think that some effects would arise from the knowledge that others are still mortal which might not exist if _all_ were immortal.


----------



## KC Trae Becker (Sep 26, 2015)

This is a great question! I have a race of people that can live about 900 years. I've struggled to figure out how this would effect them, other than make them mostly disassociate from the shorter lives of other races.

FYI, the new Doctor Who material frequently attempts to deal with these issues since the Doctor is the last of his kind. Most of his issues don't apply to my race though.


----------



## Creed (Sep 26, 2015)

In my Universe there are a handful of immortals that take part in the story, but only three majorly so, and they are of three different races. This shapes their experience in its own way. Two of them can exist within the societies of the contemporary races; the first looks fairly human despite being millions of years old, the youngest is 4000 years old and is one of the current races. The other is also millions of years old but would certainly be called a demon.

Despite how different they are I've found a kind of pattern in their lives.

*Reaction* - the three immortals only gained said immortality during events of great destruction in which they lost everything (their civilizations, family, even their gods). They weep and mourn for years or decades, not caring for life but not ending it.
*Impulse Action* - they find solace in taking risks and exploring, internally and externally. They adopt companions (for the first two immortals, this includes the ancestors of humanity).
*Disillusionment* - they become bored with the world and return to sentimentality. They can't forget their pasts, and have no will to go on.
*The Long Sleep* - tired with the world, the immortals find a quiet and secluded place, where fall into a sleep that carries them through the ages. For the first two this sleep lasts anywhere from 1-3 million years, for the third only 1 to 2 thousand years. During this time they dream (and dreaming has a very important role in my Universe).
*New Purpose* - when they wake, they find the world has changed around them, for example with the rise of Human and Lethos civilization. But more importantly they find a new purpose for life. One is driven to bring about the rebirth of the Universe, another to keep the Universe as is, and the youngest one finds a new deity in Fate, whom he chooses to serve. It might be fair to call this another form of madness.

Presumably the process would climax with success or failure of the new purpose, the latter of which might cause a cycle. But the arc of the story is directly tied to these immortals' new purposes so I can't know. Anyways, that's just what happens to immortals in my world. They manipulate events towards their purposes, affecting the mortal world and the story. For the oldest two it becomes a game of sorts, each trying to outwit the other with the stakes being creation and destruction of the Universe. But they know there are far more older beings than them and by the third quarter of the planned story they realize they are out of their league.

Sorry if it's long. I just love thinking about their stories!


----------



## FifthView (Sep 26, 2015)

@Creed:  Two take-aways from your example:


Whether an immortal was born immortal or started as a mortal but somehow gained immortality may be important to the psychology of the character.
In either case, unless the immortal knew he was immortal from the very beginning of his existence, he's likely to go through stages of psychological development or reaction to his immortality.

#2 is interesting for me, because in many stories, he may be shown in only one stage of his life, given that most stories do not concern the whole scope of thousands or millions of years.  Your story does seem to concern the fuller scope; but imagine a different story in which one immortal is in, say, Stage 2, Impulse Action.  Then consider another story in which the immortal is in that final stage, New Purpose.  For either, consider the possibility that the full scope, of their long history and the different stages, is not important to the story.

This was something I was alluding to when I wrote that I think not all immortals would react to being immortal in the same way, or that immortality may not have a single common effect on the psychology for every immortal.  I.e., various personality traits might exist, various histories, distinguishing them.  So for me it's possible to imagine, among other types:


The immortal who goes around helping people, or shepherding individuals, societies, nations.  Think a type of Gandalf or that old television show _Touched by an Angel_.
The immortal who is largely a recluse.  He lives apart from society, believes in non-interference, likes studying nature,  civilizations, etc., and writes voluminously of all his discoveries.  The "scientist" type.
The immortal who becomes something of a despot, taking control and insisting on control of a nation or all societies–under the belief that this is going to be his "home" for eternity, so he might as well shape it to his liking and for his comfort.
The immortal who lives a hedonistic life, enjoying "living in the moment" satisfying his pleasures, enjoying the company of others.  Think, various types of vampires in written fiction or movies.


----------



## Creed (Sep 26, 2015)

Good examples! Some of them harken to more modern literature, but they also reflect the personalities of characters from myths, and even gods themselves. I could certainly see an immortal taking on a role similar to that of Loki or Pan too.

My only caveat would be that in my Universe a certain racial psychology is apparent. Every race can be placed on a spectrum of Order and Chaos, and that deeply affects their actions. The two oldest immortals are very much Chaotic creatures, and each takes their place in a role of creator and destroyer. The creatures that are older than them are closer to the heart of Chaos, and being immortal are hell-bent on creating and destroying obsessively, whether that be illusory worlds, very real civilizations, or even stars. The oldest and most Chaotic creatures exist outside of time. They created the Universe and will continue to sleep until they rise to destroy it, and create it again.

It's easy to call it madness, but it's just what they feel the need to do. If it weren't part of their instinct it would be just as easy to call it a past-time. I guess after a while you'd need a form of coping mechanism anyways.


----------



## K.S. Crooks (Sep 26, 2015)

It would depend on what the character does with their time. If they spent many of their years in battle or dealing with violence and repression they may be very jaded toward the rest of humanity. If they spent many years travelling and learning new things they could be highly skilled at many trades, fighting styles, etc. Their accumulated knowledge may make them feel superior to others or want to stay away from people. A major aspect to consider is whether others know that the character is immortal. This would influence if the character needs to travel/change their identity every so often the keep others from realizing their special condition.


----------



## valiant12 (Sep 27, 2015)

> I believe that the reality of mortality has severe effects on most people. In fact, I believe that a large portion of the "problems" in our world are a result of the reality of mortality. Various reactions to the often-unspoken fear of mortality exist. From ambition and avarice (to "beat the clock"), to fear (of others, of one's own ineffectuality and/or weakness), to miserliness (stockpiling supplies and refusal to share, because of some future possibility of want and dire exigencies), to cruelty and violence (a solution to premature death, the knowledge that others are dangerous and this danger can be removed; see "fear" above.) And so forth. Not everyone reacts in the most extreme negative ways, but most do have some underlying psychology affected by the knowledge of mortality.
> 
> I suspect that there is no single reaction to being immortal that would be common to all who are immortal, that there would be variation. Also I think that some effects would arise from the knowledge that others are still mortal which might not exist if all were immortal.



I believe that when something immortal coexist with mortals conflict arise. The mortals will want to live there short life span as comfortable as possible and the imortal will be pised when they start destroing the envierment for short term  financia gains.

And in our own world humanity have existed for so long and it will exist until something kills it or it commits suicide that from the perspective of a single human it is immortal. If a character is in a situation in which he must choose between saving a random human and his best friend who is not a human what is the morally right choice? Putting your interest over that of humanity as a whole is egoistic. losing a close friend is one of the most painful think a person can experience.


----------



## Heliotrope (Sep 27, 2015)

I have written a few immortal characters. Both have been terribly envious of death. I wrote a short story recently about an old army Commander with survivors remorse. He, cowardly ran from a battlefield when he realized his entire legion would be killed. As payment, Life refused to let him die until he could pay back the 12,000 lives. He lived every day wallowing in shame and regret, haunted by the ghosts of his legion. He wanted nothing more than to join them as he should have in the beginning, but he couldn't. So he had a lot of inner conflict, he tended to be suicidal, withdrawn, drunk. The only solace he had was in his daughter, but he knew, terrified, that he would outlive her too. I would think that not having the option of death would take a lot of joy out of life.


----------



## Creed (Sep 28, 2015)

@Heliotrope That reminds me of Timothy Findley's _Pilgrim_, which I'm genuinely surprised I forgot. One of the most interesting takes on an immortal I've read.


----------



## Heliotrope (Sep 28, 2015)

Cool, I just looked it up. I'll have to pick up a copy


----------



## Heliotrope (Sep 28, 2015)

I do usually think of immortality as more of a punishment than a gift. Another example is Tom Hank's character at the end of the green Mile. He is 108 years old, not sure when he is going to die. At first you think this is because Coffee transferred some of his power to him, while elongates his life, but he sees it as God is punishing him for not saving Coffee, so he has to see all his loved ones die before him. 

Which also makes you wonder… if it was part of Coffee's power (to live forever), and he had experienced such terrible things like the rape and murder of the little girls, it was no wonder he wanted to go at the end. He transferred his power to Hank's character because he just couldn't cope anymore with the shittyness of life….


----------



## SemKuipers (Jan 5, 2016)

Hi! I'm new to this site but I'm just gonna go straight into a discussion like this because I love this sort of stuff! So here is my take on the concept of immortality!

I had a discussion with a friend when we were very drunk in a McDonalds about the concept of immortality, as you do. Because like me he has characters in his world that are immortal and we were pondering on several things. One was, if you are immortal you have to be sooooo incredibely smart that you must know everything about everything, because you have the time to learn it and study it. And that you also must know everything about the human mind and body. So for example if someone is lying you would know it instantly, because you would know every microscopic detail about the way a face looks when its lying or telling the truth.

And also do you eat when your immortal? Because why bother if your not going to die anyway? I would imagine that it would only be for ceremonial purposes, for example to welcome guests into your home or celebrating a birthday (congratulations with your 100.000th birthday, here's a cookie!).

Anyway I find this a very interesting topic to think about and I would be very interested if somebody pulls of a really realistic immortal character (I'm trying to anyway!).


----------



## WooHooMan (Jan 5, 2016)

SemKuipers said:


> Anyway I find this a very interesting topic to think about and I would be very interested if somebody pulls of a really realistic immortal character



You can't make a realistic portrayal of an immortal person because immortal people aren't real.

But anyways, on to Scribe's query: general ideas...

I remember reading an article about a psychological test where a handful of people were hypnotized and told that they will not die.  The subjects personalities seemed to change, making them more confident, risk-taking and optimistic.  It was as if believing themselves to be immortal, made them think they were invincible.
This ties into the Freudian theory of a person's death drive which postulates that a subconscious fear/anticipation of death leads people towards risky (or self-destructive) behavior.
But I should probably point-out that there is little substantial evidence that supports the existence of a death drive.

Another thing I've read about death and psychology is the idea of people using their mortality as a form of identity and a means of giving themselves a sense of purpose.  When people reflect on their mortality, they remind themselves that they are small pieces of a much larger narrative, with a very expansive beginning and ending that exist outside of their lifespans.  This is supposed to give a person a sense of purpose as it allows them to break-up existence (particularly, their lives) as a series of episodes (like childhood, youth, adulthood, etc.), which they can transition between.
I suspect an immortal character wouldn't be able to put their existence into context this way and (if they expect to be in the same position for most of their lives) they would lack this "transforming" aspects of mortality.  I'd imagine that an immortal character could instead define their lives in relation to the lives around them.  Perhaps that effects their sense of individuality or fate?

I don't know, I'm just throwing stuff out there.

As for me: I have three immortal characters in the story I'm writing.  
The first (unintentionally) fits in with what I just typed: they're reckless, optimistic, overly-confident but have identity issues, co-dependency issues and a conflicted view on fate.
The second, however, was directly based-off of one of my favorite immortal characters in fiction: Leto II, the God-Emperor of the Known Universe.  The thing with both my character and Leto is that they didn't stop transforming after gaining immortality and other powers define their psychology more then their immortality.  So, the take away from that is that immortality alone isn't what will define the character's psyche.
Third character is so not-human that the notion of mortality vs. immortality is not worth thinking about with him.  However, he does sort of define his existence by the lives around him, in a way.

So, there you go.
Sorry if this was ramble-y, I haven't slept in like 20 hours.


----------



## thecoldembrace (Jan 5, 2016)

Several people thought I did well in portraying an immortal person in one of my showcases. You can check that out here if you'd like.
http://mythicscribes.com/forums/showcase/13546-understand-post190235.html#post190235


----------



## psychotick (Jan 6, 2016)

Hi,

For me immortality comes in two forms. One are those who not only live forever, but can't be kille. The others may live forever - if no one kills them.

This makes a big difference. Those who cannot be killed at all I see as ultimately heading towards the path of complete self absorbtion. Why should they be interested in the outside world when it's ephemeral? People die - so that's an issue with making friends, taking lovers and having kids. At some point you'd want to stop doing it because you don't want to have to live knowing that they'd die. And in fact the meaning of life - ie other people's lives - would become less to you. I mean what does it matter if someone kills someone else - they were going to die anyway. There may even be the formation of a God complex. As in I can do whatever I want because no one else matters.

The second group I see as heading towards a different path - fear. They hide. The longer you live the less you want to die and the more you fear discovery and death. Death becomes their bogeyman.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## Miskatonic (Jan 6, 2016)

My MC is immortal in the sense that he doesn't grow old, but he can be killed if wounded bad enough.


----------



## caters (Jan 6, 2016)

I handle mine by giving them semi-immortality, that is no dying from old age but still just as likely to die of disease and other natural and unnatural causes.


----------



## Nagash (Jan 6, 2016)

I can't help but imagine immortality as an eternal fall in the abyss of depression - an endless fall in a bottomless pit... I've toyed with the concept in my WIP, and the few immortal characters are systematically cynics with a shattered heart, exhausted by the everlasting nature of their stay in the mortal world. One of my MC's is an immortal who comes to regret and despise what he once thought to be a gift, resenting his existence and questioning his faith. He is ultimately offered a glorious death by his god who realizes how much this one has sacrificed in his name, and is truly affected upon seeing how miserable eternity makes him. Upon seeing him being delivered from his "benediction", the few other immortal characters start to question the nature of their immortality, and start to dwell on the same depressed path upon realizing immortality is a curse that no living should wish to endure.


----------



## Queshire (Jan 6, 2016)

I, for one, am against the immortality being a curse trope.


----------



## Miskatonic (Jan 7, 2016)

Queshire said:


> I, for one, am against the immortality being a curse trope.



Yes, no more brooding, melancholy vampires please.


----------



## Miskatonic (Jan 7, 2016)

Nagash said:


> I can't help but imagine immortality as an eternal fall in the abyss of depression - an endless fall in a bottomless pit... I've toyed with the concept in my WIP, and the few immortal characters are systematically cynics with a shattered heart, exhausted by the everlasting nature of their stay in the mortal world. One of my MC's is an immortal who comes to regret and despise what he once thought to be a gift, resenting his existence and questioning his faith. He is ultimately offered a glorious death by his god who realizes how much this one has sacrificed in his name, and is truly affected upon seeing how miserable eternity makes him. Upon seeing him being delivered from his "benediction", the few other immortal characters start to question the nature of their immortality, and start to dwell on the same depressed path upon realizing immortality is a curse that no living should wish to endure.



I think it depends on the person and the times they live in. If you are an immortal that has to isolate yourself from society then depression or a desperate search for a purpose and reason for being could become a problem. 

On the other hand you might have someone thirsty for power, wealth, etc., and being able to live forever gives them plenty of time to work towards achieving their goals. They aren't racing against time so that lends itself to being patient and opportunistic when convenient. It's like playing a really long chess game with no clock to dictate how long you have to make your move, and you are playing against opponents that don't have that luxury. 

My MC is sort of like the second type but not interested in actually ruling nations. Sitting on a throne is something he avoids at all costs. However, he does do some manipulating behind the scenes because he believes it's establishing some degree of order that in his mind wouldn't exist otherwise. The one thing that a prolonged life has done to him is his emotions have been tempered, so he can come across as callous and indifferent at times. He's seen the cycles that have taken place in human history so there are fewer things that surprise him. His emotions are far less likely to play a part in his decisions. He's experienced love, loss, triumph, and failure enough times to be able to weather the storm with little difficulty. 

To alter his personality and how he views the world is the character development challenge I have to figure out.


----------



## Nagash (Jan 7, 2016)

Of course, many ways of seeing immortality exist and your examples are perfectly fine Miskatonic. Obviously, immortality and they way it affects the mood/behavior of a character depends on a myriad of other factors - social and otherwise. I only favor the immortality as a curse trope because a fair amount of my characters endure a tough and miserable life, and the very thought of enduring this earthly journey eternally, should bring them on the brink of insanity.


----------



## FifthView (Jan 7, 2016)

Queshire said:


> I, for one, am against the immortality being a curse trope.



I agree.  However I keep imagining a true immortal, who can never die, facing the prospect of the sun in his solar system dying someday.  Or having to live on a planet devastated by some massive asteroid hit.  When I consider what I'd do, were some mystical being to offer me the ability to live forever, these things pop into my head.  I'd probably begin to help in research and development, so I could system-hop to avoid living in such an environment.  Now, all the stars in the universe will one day wink out; but that's so incredibly long a time frame I'd try not to think about it much.


----------



## psychotick (Jan 7, 2016)

Hi,

To me people are complex. I can see many immortals going through phases where they are depressed and believe their immortality is a curse - among those who cannot die. After you watched your children die of old age perhaps. You've been rejected as a freak by your village. The world has changed to the point where you can't keep up with it. You've survived a catastrophe eg a disease like the black plague, that's wiped everyone else you knew out. When you've walked the entire world nad found no one else like you.

I just can't see this being a permanent state of affairs. You move past the pain and you learn from it. Unfortunately what you learn may not be good. In the unkillable immortals they would learn that life is fleeting for others and therefore perhaps theirs is not as important as his. Ultimately this is I think the lesson all unkillable immortals would learn. That others aren't like them. And that they can't throw themselves into life - raising families, loving etc, because it always ends the same way - death and pain.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## Miskatonic (Jan 8, 2016)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> To me people are complex. I can see many immortals going through phases where they are depressed and believe their immortality is a curse - among those who cannot die. After you watched your children die of old age perhaps. You've been rejected as a freak by your village. The world has changed to the point where you can't keep up with it. You've survived a catastrophe eg a disease like the black plague, that's wiped everyone else you knew out. When you've walked the entire world nad found no one else like you.
> 
> ...



Just look at how the protagonist of Highlander was treated when the village thought he was in league with the devil for not dying in battle from his horrific wounds.


----------



## FifthView (Jan 8, 2016)

Death is not always a bad thing. There may be a paradox in a) believing an immortal would wish for the ability to die while also b) believing that an immortal would see the deaths of his loved ones as being a horrible thing. It's not so much a paradox if death/dying is not the issue, but rather loneliness.  I.e., the old adage that it's the survivors who suffer most from death.  (And the all-too-human penchant for believing that extended solitude is a horrible thing; or, the penchant for not being able to be happy unless surrounded by friends, family, loved ones.)  But death can be seen as a natural thing, and an immortal could come to accept the natural course of natural life without always being beset by the deaths of those around him.



> And that they can't throw themselves into life - raising families, loving etc, because it always ends the same way - death and pain.



I'm not sure this is true.  Maybe it is my own age and the fact that I've already experienced the deaths of loved elderly family members who have lived full, joyous lives.  With those still living, it's not as if I can't throw myself into living with them, loving them, simply because I know they may have only a few years left.  And besides which, an immortal who simply can't die is going to be an extraordinary boon for family members whenever danger presents itself.  It's like having your own personal Iron Man or Hulk on standby.  An immortal might well throw himself into that role as protector—even if, as it turns out, he's eventually protecting his great-grandchildren, his great-great-nephews and nieces, etc.


----------



## vaiyt (Jan 10, 2016)

Immortals are likely to see things normal people take for granted as fleeting and temporary. Nations, ideologies, prejudices, morals, social order etc. are to them as transient as a rainbow for the rest of us.


----------



## skip.knox (Jan 10, 2016)

>Immortals are likely to see things normal people take for granted as fleeting and temporary.

I wonder about this. Seems to me, one still has to drag one's sorry butt through all twenty-four hours of a day. A thousand years of Rome still comes out to a thousand years. That's not fleeting, it's _grinding_. I think it would be more like sitting through a badly-edited four hour movie. By the second hour, I'd be looking for the exit. Only there's no exit and there's an infinity of movies cued up behind this one.

My problem with immortals is this: time is a key ingredient of being alive in general and being human in particular. Being immortal means, in a quite fundamental way, being inhuman. That tends to make nonsense of most human motivations, which in turn renders trivial most storytelling techniques. That, in turn, is why most immortals/gods/angels etc. aren't really superbeings at all, but are just humans in costume or, more commonly, humans with various human elements arbitrarily removed or exaggerated.

Honestly, when I see a book is about immortals, I move on. Which is odd and inconsistent because I'm all about elves and dwarves and such (who are, by definition, inhuman, and who likewise tend mostly to be humans in costume). Being odd and inconsistent is also a human trait.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick (Jan 10, 2016)

I think the idea that immortals don't age does present some odd issues with a love life. For example, if an immortal married (again, and again, and again), well... first of all, the spouse is obviously not the jealous type. S/he'd know that going into the marriage. But would there be a fear that the love would end when the immortal looks permanently twenty-something and the spouse is over 70?

It might even make an interesting immortal character, especially with a male immortal. Hollywood leads guys to believe that an eighty-year-old man with a twenty-year-old woman is normal/awesome/not gross, as long as the man is rich and the wife is a trophy. How cool would it be to have an immortal man with his aging wife, seen on the streets holding hands? The general public may see them as grandmother and grandson, but the immortal still treats her as his wife–even if he's more of a caretaker when she's elderly.


----------



## Ireth (Jan 10, 2016)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> I think the idea that immortals don't age does present some odd issues with a love life. For example, if an immortal married (again, and again, and again), well... first of all, the spouse is obviously not the jealous type. S/he'd know that going into the marriage. But would there be a fear that the love would end when the immortal looks permanently twenty-something and the spouse is over 70?
> 
> It might even make an interesting immortal character, especially with a male immortal. Hollywood leads guys to believe that an eighty-year-old man with a twenty-year-old woman is normal/awesome/not gross, as long as the man is rich and the wife is a trophy. How cool would it be to have an immortal man with his aging wife, seen on the streets holding hands? The general public may see them as grandmother and grandson, but the immortal still treats her as his wife—even if he's more of a caretaker when she's elderly.



I think I saw a Twilight spoof that referenced this idea... the idea of leaving Bella human didn't take. :/ Alice and Carlisle said it was "so lame." "Not to mention... really gross."

I don't have many mortal/immortal couples where both stay the same throughout their relationship. Inevitably one changes, whether voluntarily or not. I have a Fae prince who chooses a human bride, knowing that Faerie will slowly transform her into a Fae herself if she stays with him. (Canon [i.e. what I plan to publish as a novel] says that the bride is unwilling to stay and become immortal, but I've written spinoff things where the same Fae has his life go in a totally different direction, ultimately turning away from his jerkass personality, and he falls in love with a different human woman who reciprocates his feelings [as opposed to simply lusting after the first girl he meets who believes in his kind].)

Another couple in a different story are both vampires at the start, but one inadvertently becomes human again. It doesn't change the way the guys feel about each other, but how their relationship goes forward. And in the backstory of that one, a vampire guy falls in love with a human woman, and accidentally bites her in their wedding bed. The moment she wakes up, she leaves him.


----------



## vaiyt (Jan 10, 2016)

skip.knox said:


> I wonder about this. Seems to me, one still has to drag one's sorry butt through all twenty-four hours of a day. A thousand years of Rome still comes out to a thousand years. That's not fleeting, it's _grinding_.


Yeah, but after you've been through a thousand years of Rome, five hundred more of Byzantium, a couple centuries of Spain, another couple of the British, etc. etc. and you're going to roll your eyes when those newfangled Americans start thinking they're so exceptional.


----------



## psychotick (Jan 11, 2016)

Hi Fifth,

I'm not sure myself. But I think that the fact that people can move on from deaths of loved ones is in part due to their own understanding of death - ie they understand that they are on the same path. And ultimately many have the belief - and not wanting to make this a religious post in any way - that ultimately they will be with them again. That's not a possibility for someone who will live forever. They just have to live with the reality that the loss is eternal.

Cheers, Greg.


----------



## Mythopoet (Jan 11, 2016)

I think there's one important fundamental question that has to be asked first when designing an immortal:

Are they a type of being to whom immortality is part of their inherent nature? Or are they a type of being who is naturally mortal, but on whom immortality has been thrust for whatever reason?

If it is someone on whom immortality has been unnaturally thrust, then it is fine to measure them by human standards. But if immortality is natural, then they are a totally different kind of being than we humans, and cannot be measured like us. They would likely not experience time in the same way we do to begin with.


----------



## vaiyt (Jan 11, 2016)

vaiyt said:


> Yeah, but after you've been through a thousand years of Rome, five hundred more of Byzantium, a couple centuries of Spain, another couple of the British, etc. etc. and you're going to roll your eyes when those newfangled Americans start thinking they're so exceptional.


Just to expand on what was my actual point: for an immortal, a lot of things people in the here and now view as unchanging or as good as eternal, are obviously transient to them. Humans love to project their own time and place across spacetime. Legends of the past, and fantasies of the future, have always said much more about the people that wrote them, than about the ones supposedly being written about. You think pink has always been a girl color? To an immortal, the time when pink was a boy color was like last Tuesday. You think the nuclear family is an universal institution that existed since ever? He's been there and knows you're full of it. I'm just picking obvious examples to make the point clear (and because I'd need some extra research). 
Of course, not all immortals are going to think the same, but actually being able to see transitions that are too slow for normal people might give one a different perspective. Key word being might. Nothing keeps an immortal from having their tastes and mores set during adolescence so they go all bah-humbug at any development younger than 5000 AC. Let's remember that complaining about the new generation is older than writing, and think about how insufferable can a person who has been through a thousand of them be XD


----------



## Creed (Jan 13, 2016)

There's an immortal example from R. Scott Bakker's _The Second Apocalypse_ series that I think would be beneficial to bring up. The Nonmen were a race of humanoids who, and I won't spoil any of the beautiful history here, through some happenstance became immortal, faced the First Apocalypse (and barely survived) approximately 2000-3000 years before the plot of the series.

The thing is, the Nonmen only _remember_ so much of their lives. The fate of so many of the Nonmen is that they don't remember who they are or what's happening around them. Bakker describes them as souls filled to the brim with water, and only the sediment gathers at the bottom. The sediment is what can be understood as heavy emotions; memories of pain, loss, and horror. Considering what happened to their race...

What's left are Erratic immortals: confused, trying to remember, constantly reliving all the soul-shattering pain in their long lives, and to top it off some of them are very powerful mages. Kind of like time bombs.

It raises some interesting questions about the nature of immortality, if perhaps a little singular to the case. It's definitely worth pondering. What can your immortal character(s) remember? What's stopped them from going insane?


----------



## vaiyt (Jan 15, 2016)

A similar thing happens to elves in Tolkien lore: since they have perfect memory, they feel every misfortune and loss they've ever experienced like it was yesterday, which contributes to their gloominess.


----------



## Drakevarg (Jan 21, 2016)

I've never liked the gloomy immortal trope. People are, by nature, adaptable, so I think that in the long run most immortals would either become enormously eccentric or just get over themselves. Perhaps both.

Which is to say, it's easy to look at an immortal's life from a historical standpoint. Y'know, they've cameo'd in half the major events to have happened in their lifetime. But there's nothing about immortality that causes them to want to play Where's Waldo in history textbooks. For most, unless they're like the Doctor and become terminally bored when the world isn't falling apart around them, just go on with their lives.

I don't think if you chatted up random grandparents and 90-year-olds you'd find many who are looking forward to death because they ran out of books to read or meals to eat. Life goes on. You wake up, you go about your day, you sleep. Repeat. Some days are boring, some exciting, some relaxing, some sad, some happy. But it goes on. The scariest thing about growing old isn't tedium, it's losing the physical or mental faculties to live a full life. With immortality, that's out the window.

The usual argument against immortality is outliving all your loved ones. But really, how is that different from being mortal? I've never had a friend die, but I'm only in my 20s and I've had beloved pets die on me and lost more friends than I can count. They aren't dead as far as I know, but they're out of my life and probably never coming back. So what? I make new ones, knowing full well most of them won't be for life. What's stopping an immortal from doing the same?

I guess it's just hard to picture such a fundamentally fantastic entity as an immortal living a fundamentally mundane life, where their main concerns at the start of the day is the same as yours: their mouth feels like a rat died in it, they want breakfast, and for the bird outside the window to shut up. The fact that they've lived a thousand times longer than you won't change the moment-to-moment realities of living.


----------

