# Non-human gestures of fealty/submission?



## Ireth (Sep 23, 2013)

In working on my latest WIP, I've wound up portraying more of the black-elves in their natural habitat than I had originally intended, and I'm looking for ways to differentiate it from the human, Fae and light-elven cultures. Much of the black-elves' actions revolve around their Lady, and I thought it would be fitting to come up with some unique gestures of submission or fealty that they would use rather than (or perhaps elaborating on) the standard bow or curtsy. I'm having a bit of trouble with it, though. The black-elves are Norse in mythological origin, so I'm not looking for anything that would be blatantly influenced by other cultures (like, say, the Asian kowtow rather than the standard bow). Just little, perhaps subtle things to spice up my world a bit. Any ideas?


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## Lord Ben (Sep 23, 2013)

Are they sneaky assassin types?   You could borrow/modify the casino card dealers rituals of displaying your hands to show you're not palming any poker chips poisons.



> An incoming dealer will approach from the pit and stand behind the departing one–throughout the change procedure, there is no physical contact between them, except that the incoming dealer may tap the departing one on the should to announce his presence.
> 
> The departing dealer will finish the hand he is dealing or any transactions that are taking place before beginning the “clapping out” procedure, which usually consists of setting the deck or shoe in the middle of the layout and clapping his hands (a signal to the pit boss). *The departing dealer will display both sides of his hands to the players (assuring them he’s not leaving with any cards), as well as for the camera (to prove he’s not palmed any cheques). The dealer’s hands remain palms-up as he steps away from the table and departs through the pit.
> 
> Once the departing dealer has left, the incoming dealer “tap in”. He will generally display his hands to the players and camera (to prove nothing is being brought into the game), then tap the edge of the rack (another signal to the pit boss) before resuming play.* Generally, the incoming dealer will not shuffle the cards (unless it is necessary because the cut card has shown–and even then, the departing dealer generally shuffles before clapping out), but will usually burn the first card from the deck before resuming play.



Perhaps it's simply polite to keep the palms of your hands visible?  Or something more complex where the higher status individual has only the backs of the hand showing, the Queen/Empress or whatever might have big ornate sleeves that completely obscure the entire hands, etc.

Just a thought....


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## Ireth (Sep 23, 2013)

That's an interesting idea, Ben.  The black-elven culture as I imagine it is something of a mishmash of elven, dwarven and orcish. They have the basic body shape of elves, with (typically) lithe bodies and pointy ears, though they aren't as tall as Fae or light-elves. They live underground in vast caverns and tunnels, which seems like a very dwarfish sort of lifestyle. Finally, they are most often brutish and cruel, very orcish in their behavior.

Signy, the sole sympathetic black-elf character, makes her first appearance when she kills a fellow black-elf in cold blood, before freeing the MC from where the slain black-elf had been holding him captive. Half of the reason she gives the MC for this is "because I was curious". She goes on to show a more sympathetic side, tending to the MC's wounds and hiding him from the Lady who rules her people, but she retains a decent amount of brutishness in her interactions with other black-elves. Of note is her scheme to get the MC out of the Lady's lair for good.



Spoiler: Signy's plan



First she finds a bunch of half-drunk fellow black-elves, then ropes them into a drinking game, with the losers' fate being that they must go through the rift to the MC's homeworld -- a rift through which a handful of black-elves have been sent already, only to vanish without a trace (i.e., be killed by the Fae on the other side). The Lady catches them as they're about to go through the rift, and when one of the losers rats on Signy, the Lady orders her to go through instead. Signy takes it in stride, and sneaks the MC out with her, disguised as a black-elf acting as her bodyguard.


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## GeekDavid (Sep 23, 2013)

Perhaps they could tilt their heads to the side, exposing the jugular, saying they are submitting their life to whomever they greet that way?


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## Ireth (Sep 23, 2013)

Ooh, I like that one, David! That'd be reserved for someone they really feel they can trust, I think, or maybe solely for the Lady.


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## shangrila (Sep 25, 2013)

The jugular thing reminds me of the Canis from the Codex Alera. It feeds into the fact that they're basically giant wolves since it's an act of submission. Personally, I wouldn't use it for black elves, but it's up to you.

What's their culture like? I think that might help reinforce it if you could come up with a specific gesture that ties into it.


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## CupofJoe (Sep 25, 2013)

I read that one possible [very deep time] origin of the handshake and wave as a greeting was that a proffered or raised hand exposes the various veins and arteries in the wrist to attack...


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## Nihal (Sep 25, 2013)

Just adding to the posts above: I remember, vaguely, a dictionary of symbols from my times of university, when I had to analyze some second war posters.

The "sacrifice" entries covered hands and necks. Tilted heads, hands raised, touching from the heart to the neck, also showing the wrists, all are considered signs for sacrifice, offering. You don't need to specifically offer the jugular, but play with this idea and incorporate it in a gesture.


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## GeekDavid (Sep 25, 2013)

shangrila said:


> The jugular thing reminds me of the Canis from the Codex Alera. It feeds into the fact that they're basically giant wolves since it's an act of submission. Personally, I wouldn't use it for black elves, but it's up to you.
> 
> What's their culture like? I think that might help reinforce it if you could come up with a specific gesture that ties into it.



Amazing... it's been years since I read Codex Alera and I didn't consciously remember that... but some part of my brain must have.


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## Ireth (Sep 25, 2013)

shangrila said:


> What's their culture like? I think that might help reinforce it if you could come up with a specific gesture that ties into it.



I've touched on that in post #3 -- they're kind of a blend of elves, dwarves and orcs.


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## Guru Coyote (Sep 25, 2013)

I think to each gesture of submission there is also the opposite side, the show of power and subjugation.

When I read they have orcish cultural traits... I somehow saw them using a lot of growls, grunts and whines. That's not really a 'gesture' but it might work: the dominant elf shouts/grunts/growls at the weaker, who then retreats, head bowed and whining/whimpering. If this is too much sound/vocal, the growl could be replaced by baring of teeth, the whimper/retreat simply by bowing of head etc.


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## Ireth (Sep 25, 2013)

Guru Coyote said:


> I think to each gesture of submission there is also the opposite side, the show of power and subjugation.
> 
> When I read they have orcish cultural traits... I somehow saw them using a lot of growls, grunts and whines. That's not really a 'gesture' but it might work: the dominant elf shouts/grunts/growls at the weaker, who then retreats, head bowed and whining/whimpering. If this is too much sound/vocal, the growl could be replaced by baring of teeth, the whimper/retreat simply by bowing of head etc.



Maybe... It does sound rather animalistic, though, and the black-elves aren't quite on that level of brutishness. They are still elves, after all, just not the type one typically thinks of when they hear the word "elf". That distinction belongs to the light-elves, who are more like the elves of traditional fantasy, esp. Tolkien.


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## skip.knox (Sep 25, 2013)

A common gesture of supplication is to spread the hands wide, palms up. Beggars use the gesture.

One thing that occurs to me: you want something that can be described in comparatively few words, if you're going to use the gesture more than once or twice. If only once or twice, though, you could make it more elaborate. In which case, it could be more than a gesture only. Maybe words. An offering. Dunno.

See how helpful I am?


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## Guru Coyote (Sep 25, 2013)

The - admittedly rather animalistic - set of gestures of dominance and submission I had in mind.. could be 'refined' into more 'cultured' traditions. I think taking an animal gesture and extrapolating a 'humanoid' one from it should wield good results.

Here's what I might use:
dominant person: raises chin and eyebrow (makes eyes wide) and looks down upon the other, possibly bares teeth (like in a snarl)
submitting person: bows head, casts glance aside, spreads hands palms up... mybe bends knees slightly.

A totally different set of social signals might be more verbal: outright insults in a harsh voice (dominant) paired with soft spoken politeness (submitting).

Now that I think about this more... I guess all of this can actually be found in human society and non-verbal communication. The trick in case of the black elves might simply be: pick a way to describe 'gesture' that is distinct and stick with that whenever they are involved.


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## GeekDavid (Sep 25, 2013)

Guru Coyote said:


> The trick in case of the black elves might simply be: pick a way to describe 'gesture' that is distinct and stick with that whenever they are involved.



That right there is the key, I think. I imagine most readers will accept whatever gesture you decide to use, as long as it's used consistently. Of course, it should also make sense if someone explains it, but consistency is even more important, I think.


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## Ireth (Sep 25, 2013)

Been thinking about this again, and I think there should be more than just one gesture in use. In the real world, we use different gestures when addressing different people in positions of authority -- saluting to an officer, bowing/curtsying to the Queen, using words like "sir" or "ma'am" when addressing elders. I like the idea of the throat-baring gesture as something for submitting to the Lady, but that shouldn't be the catch-all. If for example a black-elf found themselves in the presence of a foreign ruler, they wouldn't be too inclined to bare their throat, but they'd still need to show some form of respect if they didn't want to be killed.


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## GeekDavid (Sep 25, 2013)

Ireth said:


> Been thinking about this again, and I think there should be more than just one gesture in use. In the real world, we use different gestures when addressing different people in positions of authority -- saluting to an officer, bowing/curtsying to the Queen, using words like "sir" or "ma'am" when addressing elders. I like the idea of the throat-baring gesture as something for submitting to the Lady, but that shouldn't be the catch-all. If for example a black-elf found themselves in the presence of a foreign ruler, they wouldn't be too inclined to bare their throat, but they'd still need to show some form of respect if they didn't want to be killed.



If they met a foreign ruler (and I am assuming that they're either genuinely showing or feigning respect, rather than going straight to attacking), I'd think they'd watch what the other people around the ruler did and mimic them. An American wouldn't bow to the President, but might to Queen Elizabeth, out of respect.


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## Recaferona (Sep 25, 2013)

Guru Coyote said:


> Here's what I might use:
> dominant person: raises chin and eyebrow (makes eyes wide) and looks down upon the other, possibly bares teeth (like in a snarl)
> submitting person: bows head, *casts glance aside*, spreads hands palms up... mybe bends knees slightly.



I couldn't think about proper gesture, but the first thing I stumbled upon is eyes. I don't think that casts glance aside would suit the concept. I think to retain the eye contact as long as a dominant person on sight (or in front of us) would be a perfect attitude since it reflect honesty and pure longing. Cast glance aside could possibly be tied with an act of disregards.


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## Ireth (Sep 25, 2013)

Recaferona said:


> I couldn't think about proper gesture, but the first thing I stumbled upon is eyes. I don't think that casts glance aside would suit the concept. I think to retain the eye contact as long as a dominant person on sight (or in front of us) would be a perfect attitude since it reflect honesty and pure longing. Cast glance aside could possibly be tied with an act of disregards.



Well, given that the black-elves are Chaotic Neutral at best and Chaotic Evil at worst, I don't think honesty is high on their list of virtues. The majority of them would backstab and even kill each other as long as it benefited them somehow. As for the eye thing, I think maybe a lowered gaze rather than an aside gaze would show submission better. Like, "I'm a worthless worm who doesn't deserve to look at you; please don't crush me!" Or something like that.


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## Nihal (Sep 26, 2013)

I disagree on Recaferona's eye contact observation. In the nature fixed eye contact make animals nervous. The explanation is simple: Predators keep their eyes fixed on their preys. If you want to test it stare at a dog or a cat; there is a good chance they'll react negatively. It's the signal for "I want to kill you". Also, in a pack when the alpha stares the others look away. If one insists on staring back it's demonstrating its intention to confront the alpha.

Speaking of humans, in some cultures it was a taboo to lay your eyes on the royal/ruling family, etc. It was considered disrespectful, at the least. "I'm watching you, I don't fear you, I'm an equal."


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## Recaferona (Sep 26, 2013)

Ireth: I didn't meant that kind of honesty though 

Nihal: well different place has different culture isn't it? ^^ my approach based on a Batak Tribe of North Sumatra. And I think that elves didn't need to be much animalistic. Just an opinion though.


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## Guru Coyote (Sep 26, 2013)

The discussion of eye contact or no eye contact brings up a valuable way to make those black elves (or any culture) different: 
Find one gesture that they share with other cultures, but interpret differently. Do a scene where this leads to a misunderstanding. Keep using that particular gesture.

(Why am I thinking of Dune and water now?)


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## Nihal (Sep 26, 2013)

Be careful, don't confuse instincts with "animalistic" traits. We are still animals and still have similar reactions to similar codes of conduct based on our instincts, it's ingrained on us–hence the major interpretation of eye contact around the globe, even if we can't see anymore the reason to react this way. _One_ tribe has one interpretation. _Millions_ of other people throughout the know history have another.

Of course you can call orange "blue", but it's up to you to discover if it's worthy the risk. I believe that in her case it's more productive to incorporate know signs of submission and sacrifice in a new gesture and give a small easter egg to the readers than go against it and send mixed signals that serve no purpose at all.


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