# Gay/ Lesbian Protagonist/ Antagonist???



## phoenixwings (Dec 7, 2011)

Hello. 

My main character is a teenager, just turning thirteen in my fantasy novel and has had thoughts about relationships with other girls. 

This is the plot line. Episkopos, a community of Satanics, rule the City of Dandelion Simes. Their rules forbid others to have relationships with people of the same sex, if broken the punishment consists of torture, amputation and then murdered. 

My main character also believs in God as she is a Christian.

Do you think that this could work in the fantasy genre? What are your thoughts?


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## danr62 (Dec 7, 2011)

Sounds more like satire to me.


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## Steerpike (Dec 7, 2011)

I think you run into trouble having satanists involved, because even though satanist beliefs vary, from what I've read they all more or less agree on the idea that the individual can (and in fact should) pursue any of their physical desires in a vigorous way. Satanists having rules against sex with others of the same sex doesn't make a great deal of sense to me, and then when you have the gay or lesbian character as a Christian (a faith in which many do actively oppose same-sex relationships), danr62 is right - it starts to look a lot more like a satire where you are turning everything on its head. I'm not sure of the purpose behind setting it up that way.


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## Reaver (Dec 7, 2011)

I agree with both Steerpike and danr62, leave mainstream religion out of it and you've got yourself a very interesting character with a cool storyline.  Dandelion Simes law about homosexuality sounds eerily similar to Uganda's don't you think? And they're backed by many "Christian" organizations.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Dec 7, 2011)

Nothing wrong with having LGBT characters, although it will make some subset of readers uncomfortable. (Frankly, screw them.)


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## Steerpike (Dec 7, 2011)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Nothing wrong with having LGBT characters, although it will make some subset of readers uncomfortable. (Frankly, screw them.)



I don't interpret what people have said here as objecting to LGBT characters. I agree with you in that regard, and this has been done before in fantasy works. I think what is problematic is the specific society (and its religious disposition) proposed by the OP. It doesn't work for me; others may differ.


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## Reaver (Dec 7, 2011)

Steerpike said:


> I don't interpret what people have said here as objecting to LGBT characters. I agree with you in that regard, and this has been done before in fantasy works. I think what is problematic is the specific society (and its religious disposition) proposed by the OP. It doesn't work for me; others may differ.



I have absolutely no objections to LGBT characters, my main point was to leave out any mainstream religion--unless that conflict is the focal point of the story.


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## Telcontar (Dec 7, 2011)

Steerpike brought up most of my thoughts already. If the protagonist is homosexual and you want that to cause conflict within the story, you'd do better to have a different group in charge. I think it would be more interesting if the 'satanist' group was just find with homosexuality, but the main character was raised in the underground Christian cult, and then her homosexuality causes problems with _them._


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## Elder the Dwarf (Dec 7, 2011)

Another thought: I think it would be more acceptable to the general public (ok, I know this is sexist, but I also think it is true) to have a lesbian/ bi character than a male character who is gay/bi.  It can still be done, but for some reason there is (or maybe just seems to be) less of a problem with a female gay character.


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## phoenixwings (Dec 7, 2011)

Thanks for replying.

I thought satire was related to Erotica (which is something i don't intend to write) :S. 

The religion could be scrapped, just recently i've done an overhaul and have questioned many, many times whether it would benefit more by not having her believe in God.

I'm really not sure how to go on from here. Any ideas on how i could turn this idea into more of a fantasy?


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## Masronyx (Dec 7, 2011)

Reaver said:


> I agree with both Steerpike and danr62, leave mainstream religion out of it and you've got yourself a very interesting character with a cool storyline.  Dandelion Simes law about homosexuality sounds eerily similar to Uganda's don't you think? And they're backed by many "Christian" organizations.



I agree here. I think you should take the mainstream religion out of it and maybe come up with 2 opposing beliefs/religions: the  ruling denomination with the iron fist and the underground cult rebelling against and causing havoc on the ruling party. Otherwise,  I think it's a good idea.


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## Reaver (Dec 7, 2011)

You could have the world be a polytheistic one.  That way your MC has more options as far as religions go, especially given the fact that you can create religions that value individuality and self-love.  As far as everything else, are there mythical/ unusual creatures, animals, beings? Magic? Not that any of these things are necessary(as many of these other threads clearly demonstrate).  Just let your heart and mind connect and see where it leads you.


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## Telcontar (Dec 7, 2011)

Elder the Dwarf said:


> but for some reason there is (or maybe just seems to be) less of a problem with a female gay character.



You think so? Interesting, I would definitely suggest the opposite. I'm interested in what others reading the thread think on the subject.


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## Elder the Dwarf (Dec 7, 2011)

To be clear, I am not in any way anti-gay.  Just thought I should put that out there before someone gets offended or starts labeling me as a backwards southerner.  Anyways...

Maybe I'm wrong, but in my personal experience guys are more freaked out (perhaps not the best way of saying that) by guys being intimate than girls are of the reverse (if that makes any sense).  Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Steerpike (Dec 7, 2011)

I think you are probably right, Elder, at least among men. For many men, the idea of lesbian (or, preferably from their perspective, bisexual) women is enticing, whereas those same individuals may be very much put off by the idea of gay men. Women seem to have less strong feelings on the matter, though that is just my experience so it is anecdotal evidence only.


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## phoenixwings (Dec 7, 2011)

Polytheistic. Nice word, Reaver.

There are mythical creatures that appear along with magical human beings who have outstanding powers, such as shapeshifting, telepathy and quite possibly time travel. The idea that i have been having for some time is that each of my major characters take on the role and form of a God/ Goddess of Ancient Greece. 

Just an idea really. 

Elder, i agree with you. I know most of my female friends think guys being in a same sex relationship is pretty hot. The same goes with my male friends.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Dec 7, 2011)

I think Elder's right about most readers (guys, especially) being more comfortable with lesbians than with gay men. Maybe Elaine from Seinfeld best explains it:


> The female body is a work of art. The male body is utilitarian. It's for gettin' around. It's like a Jeep.


I tend to see imagery _vividly_ when I read, so this^ is relevant for a reader like me.

Your MC could work, assuming she's a lesbian lesbian and not a "lipstick lesbian." (Despite how my visualization comment may have come across, I'm not a pig!) The lesbian could believe in God, and there could be an evil force against God _and_ against homosexuals. (Think Nazis.) Like Reaver said, you may have to keep traditional religions out of the story to pull this off. You could have a vaguely Judeo-Christian religion--your story focuses more on the angels and other mythical creatures, but simply acknowledges the creator is "God." Or you could make up a goddess-based and/or polytheistic religion.


EDIT- Hopefully, the start of my post doesn't rub anyone the wrong way. My wife and I have homosexual friends. But in order to answer the OP's question, I wanted to be honest about comfort levels.

That said, Benjamin's post is spot on. Tell your story. If you worry about comfort levels of total strangers, your writing won't be honest. (Let the editor worry about that.) There is definitely a market for stories with homosexual protagonists. It's politicized, I suppose, but that would mean for every reader who would _boycott_ your story due to strong feelings about homosexuality, another reader is a _potential customer_ for that same reason.


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## Telcontar (Dec 8, 2011)

I must have been interpreting his original statement wrong. I thought he was saying that most readers (and characters in the story, for that matter) would have less of a problem with male homosexuality than female homosexuality.

It's true that while some readers may be turned off by a strong theme of homosexuality in a book, others will be attracted by that same theme (not necessarily for prurient reasons). Also, you might want to think about how you approach it. Either her being a lesbian/bisexual is a big part of the story, or it is in the background.


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## Sheilawisz (Dec 8, 2011)

This makes me realize, once again, how different my Fantasy actually is from the Fantasy that most people here in Mythic Scribes create and write: You are discussing human sexuality here, while in my stories there are no humans at all... In their species there is only one male for every seven females (the men are called guardians and they are 3.7m tall and weigh 720kg) so the females sometimes engage in same-sex romantic relationships, and that is perfectly normal =)

Talking now about what the readers would feel about gay protagonists or antagonists in a fantasy story, in my opinion many readers would really like to see that!! It would be quite original...


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## phoenixwings (Dec 8, 2011)

My MC is a lesbian and the girl she falls in love with is a bisexual.

The girl being one of many antagonists, the others being the force against homosexuals, holds the key to the plot of my novel so i think their sexuality wouldn't do it justice without it. 

About what people would say, i have condisdered that most people would steer clear of it because of the sexuality issue, but that there are many, many bookreaders curious or otherwise that would be interested.

Fantasy is exactly that. Different. What i think fantasy is will be different to the next person's thoughts. That's what makes fantasy so exciting and intriguing. You never know what you're going to get.


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## Reaver (Dec 8, 2011)

phoenixwings said:


> Fantasy is exactly that. Different. What i think fantasy is will be different to the next person's thoughts. That's what makes fantasy so exciting and intriguing. You never know what you're going to get.



Well put, phoenixwings.   Connect your heart and mind and see where that leads you.  I believe you're capable of telling a phenomenal story.


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## Larkin (Dec 8, 2011)

In an ideal world, 'having a gay protagonist/antagonist' would be the same as 'having a blond protagonist/antagonist'. That is to say, something not necessarily crucial to the story. In today's world, though, I'd just offer this one word of advice: _Write your LGBTQ character the same as you would any other character._ That is, there are positive and negative stereotypes that people can fall prey to when writing LGBTQ characters (as well as characters of specific ethnicities, races, religions, et cetera), and both sides of those stereotypes can be harmful to both your story and your portrayal of these characters.

You needn't have their sexual/gender identity be crucial to the plot or even to their character. No matter their sexual orientations and gender identities, people will value those things differently amongst one another. But you should, _as an author_, be aware of _all_ your characters' traits -- and that includes the LGBTQ ones as well as the 'straighter' ones.


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## Telcontar (Dec 9, 2011)

Larkin said:


> 'having a gay protagonist/antagonist' would be the same as 'having a blond protagonist/antagonist'



Keep yer filthy blondes outta mah fantasy!

A good point to stress, though. Though I'm not a big fan of the HP books, I do like how JK Rowling had said that Dumbledore was gay, but it just didn't come up in the books.


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## Shadoe (Dec 9, 2011)

phoenixwings said:


> My main character is a teenager, just turning thirteen in my fantasy novel and has had thoughts about relationships with other girls.
> 
> This is the plot line. Episkopos, a community of Satanics, rule the City of Dandelion Simes. Their rules forbid others to have relationships with people of the same sex, if broken the punishment consists of torture, amputation and then murdered.
> 
> ...



Unlike everyone else, apparently, I see no problem with the lesbian being a Christian. There are lots of Christians out there who are gay. There are a couple of paths to take about it, though. Either she's very guilty about that aspect of herself and fights against it - providing the story with some conflict. Or, she's ignoring those bits and still considers herself a Christian (frankly, this is the standard there, so she's not really out of line). Or, she's done some reasearch and found out that original biblical beliefs weren't really against homosexuality. Or, she's just plain not that devout.

Satanists, however, are all about indulgence, so probably don't have rules about anything. Perhaps she could live in a community of ultra-devout Christians? Or some other weird religion that we haven't thought of yet.


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## Sheilawisz (Dec 9, 2011)

Talking about human characters now, in my Joan of England series I have a character called Kate that is a sixteen year old girl with magical powers =) She is Joan's adopted sister, and even though Kate clearly likes guys, she behaves in a rather strange way whenever that Katy (another friend of theirs) comes into scene... The readers could tell that there is a "something" between Kate and Katy, but that part remains a secret and it's not important for the story


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## Larkin (Dec 9, 2011)

Shadoe said:


> Unlike everyone else, apparently, I see no problem with the lesbian being a Christian. There are lots of Christians out there who are gay.



Seconding this, which I meant to mention in my prior post.


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## Reaver (Dec 9, 2011)

Shadoe said:


> Unlike everyone else, apparently, I see no problem with the lesbian being a Christian. There are lots of Christians out there who are gay. There are a couple of paths to take about it, though. Either she's very guilty about that aspect of herself and fights against it - providing the story with some conflict. Or, she's ignoring those bits and still considers herself a Christian (frankly, this is the standard there, so she's not really out of line). Or, she's done some reasearch and found out that original biblical beliefs weren't really against homosexuality. Or, she's just plain not that devout.
> 
> Satanists, however, are all about indulgence, so probably don't have rules about anything. Perhaps she could live in a community of ultra-devout Christians? Or some other weird religion that we haven't thought of yet.



I need to clarify that I never said that this character shouldn't be Christian or any other religion. I basically said that it might be easier to leave out mainstream religions, that's all.  My main point was that phoenixwings needs to connect the heart and mind, to see where it leads, regardless of what others may think.


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## phoenixwings (Dec 9, 2011)

Rules/ Guidelines for Dandelion Simes. 

- Any newborns who are born with any deformaties are to be killed in the most horrendous of ways.

- If a form of disablity appears in either the twelve week scan or twenty weeks then the female is forced to drink harmful substances. 

- Gays, transexuals and transgenders don't have rights. They are used as slaves, are tortured and used for pure entertainment. 

- Murderers, psychollogically inadapt, pedophiles, etc are a tight knit community. 

- Cults are the norm. Mainly Satanic, witches, wizards performing black magic. 

- Poor people are exploited while those who are wealthier live in luxury and happiness.

- Popular, good looking girls rule the schools while unpopular, not so nice looking girls are made an example of. 


Sorry if these offend anyone, that is not my intention. These are my main focus in my novel and i just wanted some feedback on any ideas you might have. 

I have spent the last couple of hours researching Nazi culture and can't see how it relates. It was an interesting topic to look up though, thanks Legendary Sidekick for mentioning it. 

Shadoe, the way i was going to do the Christianity religion was to make her feel bad, somehow condemned for being a lesbian and that contempt, the self hatred that she feels would lead to something more. Although i'm not sure what that could be as i haven't really thought about going in that direction for a while.


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## Erica (Dec 10, 2011)

The Satanist/Christian slant may be problematic for reasons that some have already mentioned in this thread. In general, I prefer fantasy to have 'made up' religions or religions that are spin offs of existing ones rather than 'real' ones (unless of course the story is set in our world). But that may just be my bias.


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## Ghost (Dec 10, 2011)

Maybe it would help to rename these religions? The satanic religion you've made throws me because I automatically compare it to the Church of Satan. (1 and 8 are particularly interesting for this thread, also the fact that they're called "statements" rather than tenets or rules.) I understand that some religions contradict themselves (thou shalt not kill? heh), but some of your rules are odd when real satanists' main motivation is living for themselves. I don't think anybody took issue with your character's belief in God, but the idea of Satan worshippers limiting others confuses people. I say just rename both religions and make them your own creations.

I've never heard anyone say erotica is related to satire. Satire is meant to be humorous, and it's used to criticize something. There's satirical erotica out there, somewhere, but as genres they aren't too similar to each other. 

And, um, why is there a rule in the religion about "popular, good looking girls" and why do they rule schools? Even the boys at school fall in line?


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## ellianbaker (Dec 10, 2011)

Though I've been mia a bit, I have read this thread with great interest. In my other authorial guise, I have spent the past six years writing and publishing gay (m/m) romance. A lot of my stories fall into the fantasy genre, and as a reader, I devour any books with GLBT main characters. 

My current Ellian Baker series isn't romance per se, but there will be elements there. (And yes, my mains are gay.)


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## phoenixwings (Dec 12, 2011)

I know there's an issue with having Satanists :S. I forgot to mention that it was an option i was considering but i am struggling to think of names for these religions. 

As for Satanists being all for themselves, i totally agree which is what made me think of them as the antagonists for my novel. They torture to make themselves feel powerful, terrorise their victims because they can. Satanists don't do anything for anybody. That was the point i thought was relevent. .


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## Reaver (Dec 12, 2011)

This is a bit off-topic, but I want to say that I think it's awesome that Phoenixwings added a smiley face after talking about Satanic torture. I always knew that evil lurked behind this happy facade:


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## Kelise (Dec 12, 2011)

The series by Richard Morgan, The Steel Remains and followed by The Cold Commands, deals with GLBT (main) characters, and how they deal with it/religion/etc. So that could be interesting for anyone who wants to see one way in how it can be done.


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## JBryden88 (Dec 14, 2011)

I think when people say leave mainstream religion out of it, it's not that they have a problem with a lesbian being a Christian... 

More that, (at least IMHO,) if you're writing a full blown fantasy where there's a whole different way of thinking/structure/etc. in the world, then going with real world religions isn't the way to go. As a reader, I'm inclined to either find something that is historical fiction, or full blown fantasy - I'm not a big fan of say, fantasy that takes place in the real world, in a well documented time, but that uses full blown magic and fantasy under the real world's noses. As a reader, I prefer either, restricted to our world and our world's rules or a whole different world with it's own rules.

Best example of this would be George RR Martin's Ice and Fire Saga. There are religions that are clearly inspired by real world religions but because it's renamed, and tinkered with quite a bit, it's its own believable entity.

That's just my two cents


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## Erica (Dec 15, 2011)

When writing fantasy, you're always free to recreate/reinterpret cultures and their norms. It's part of what makes it fun in my opinion.  It happens all the time in fantasy set in historic and quasi-historic times on Earth or parallel Earths. One could certainly write alternative universes where the 'real' religions of our world are different in fundamental ways than they have been historically. There's nothing wrong with that and it fits nicely into the 'what if' aspect of fantasy.

The issue with writing about 'real' cultures and religions is that you run the risk of turning off, or even offending, potential readers and most especially people who have not actually read your work but have a chip on their shoulder about their religious beliefs and blindly accept whatever someone tells them. Also, non-religious readers may be offended by the story's characterization of the religion being more accepting of certain things that it has historically been (they'd accuse the writer of sanitizing it).

Some writers do pull it off, and notoriety can move books, but it also can result in hate mail and negative press and even make the writer a target for extremist wackos (as a rule, those seem to target bestselling authors, maybe because wackos rarely seem to hear about the work of independent or even mid-list writers).

BTW erotica is not the same as satire.  Satire is essentially something that calls attention to weaknesses, silliness or shortcomings of something indirectly by creating a parody of it. Satire can be as 'light' as SNL's fake commercials or as 'deep' as George Orwell's Animal Farm. 

Now it should be possible to write something that is an erotic parody or a parody of eroticism, but that's another story.


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## Steerpike (Dec 15, 2011)

If you are writing about themes surroundnig LGBT issues, you are going to offend some people no matter how you approach it. I recommend letting the story guide you, and staying true to your vision of the story, and being less concerned about who might or might not take offense to the work.


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## Reaver (Dec 15, 2011)

Steerpike said:


> If you are writing about themes surroundnig LGBT issues, you are going to offend some people no matter how you approach it. I recommend letting the story guide you, and staying true to your vision of the story, and being less concerned about who might or might not take offense to the work.



I second that.  I believe I've commented earlier on in this thread in a similar way.


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## Shadoe (Dec 16, 2011)

phoenixwings said:


> Rules/ Guidelines for Dandelion Simes.
> 
> - Any newborns who are born with any deformaties are to be killed in the most horrendous of ways.
> 
> ...


Seriously? The stuff you list kind of sounds like the Nazis. Or rather a Nazi utopia. 



> Shadoe, the way i was going to do the Christianity religion was to make her feel bad, somehow condemned for being a lesbian and that contempt, the self hatred that she feels would lead to something more.


Sounds like the world we live in now.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Dec 16, 2011)

phoenixwings said:


> I have spent the last couple of hours researching Nazi culture and can't see how it relates.


"an evil force against God _and_ against homosexuals. (Think Nazis.)"

I meant that you had your evil group as people who hate God and hate lesbians. I was merely suggesting that a real-world group that's done that would be the Nazis. I always use real life as inspiration for fantasy.



phoenixwings said:


> It was an interesting topic to look up though, thanks Legendary Sidekick for mentioning it.


You're welcome...


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## Aegrus (Dec 18, 2011)

Wait. . . Satanics who are okay with Christians but opress homsexuals?  Isn't that the inverse of Satanism?


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## phoenixwings (Dec 19, 2011)

Thanks Reaver . 

I am intrigued by naming my religions. Only trouble is, is finding them. There isn't any that are ringing any bells inside my mind right now. What do you guys do when this occurs? 

The statements i mentioned earlier were inspired by some of the things taking place in society right now. Of course, a lot of them are outside the box and may seem far fetched. Looking over them now i do see how they relate to Nazi's. And instead i think i will venture out and run it into the story, (with caution) and see what happens. 

Aegrus, i totally agree with Satanists being against Christians a lot more than homosexuals. In my head i saw them as oppressing both. With it being fantasy though, it could work as a new age thing??? :S. 

I don't know. Ideas are kind of muddled right now


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## Reaver (Dec 19, 2011)

phoenixwings said:


> Thanks Reaver .
> I am intrigued by naming my religions. Only trouble is, is finding them. There isn't any that are ringing any bells inside my mind right now. What do you guys do when this occurs? With it being fantasy though, it could work as a new age thing??? :S.
> 
> I don't know. Ideas are kind of muddled right now



When I have difficulty coming up with names for religions, I take the easy route by first taking the prinicipal deity's name and adding "ian" or "ite".  For example, if I had a religion where the people worshiped Anubis, I'd call them Anubians, or Anubyssians or something like that.

 It absolutely could work. New religions have been popping up since the dawn of recorded history.

Hope this helps!  PM me if there's anything else I can help with!


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