# Soap.



## Benjamin Clayborne (Dec 20, 2011)

So here's a pretty specific question: Did bar soap exist in the late 1700s? I've got a quasi-post-medieval-but-not-quite-industrial civilization, and I'm wondering whether soap as we know it now existed then. I know that soap is an ancient invention, I just have no idea if they used hard bar soaps like the kind we have now.


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## Butterfly (Dec 20, 2011)

Soap as we know it was a creation of the Egyptians, but it does go back further than that to the iron-age Celts. I remember that the BBC (I think) did an experiment of placing a family into an iron age village and living with that era for a few weeks. It was cut short by the enviro agency or something over the meat storage issue, (they had to bury it to keep it fresher for longer - useful for winter, not so good for summer) but one of the episodes involved making soap.Their soap consisted of heating and reheating animal fats until it went hard and then mixing with and ash. 

I found this link to an experiment for you, not the BBC one, but you might find it informative ironagesoap


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## Steerpike (Dec 20, 2011)

Hmmm. Here is something on Castile soap, which is apparently mentioned as early as 1567 in London. I mention it here because it looks quite a bit like bar soap we use today:

Castile soap - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think you have to get into the late 1700s before you get any kind of large manufacturing that produces a consistent, readily-available product. Someone else may know a lot more about it.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Dec 20, 2011)

All I'm really after is whether or not it's plausible that a pre-industrialization but otherwise fairly advanced European-style civilization would have hard soap, or liquid soap. It's not a huge deal, really, but it's the kind of thing where someone might read it and just happen to know that that kind of soap wasn't invented until 1852 and requires, you know, a giant heavy manufacturing infrastructure. **cough*Ravana*cough**


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## Reaver (Dec 20, 2011)

Look...I know I'm an amateur when it comes to writing...but when it comes to commonplace things that people like myself take for granted, like soap, toilet paper, hamsters in remote-controlled helicopters, etc...I tend to file it in the "mysterious origins that nobody questions" file.  Kind of like Spinal Tap does with the Druids. (See my quote below.)


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## Steerpike (Dec 20, 2011)

You have all your amps set to 11, Reaver?


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## Reaver (Dec 20, 2011)

Steerpike said:


> You have all your amps set to 11, Reaver?





Of course.  I'm preparing to tour the world and elsewhere.


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## Ravana (Dec 21, 2011)

Yes, soap existed in the Medieval world (and well before). The main things it would have been made from, depending on time and place, were oil or animal fat combined with ash (especially potash) or lye; some clays were occasionally components as well. It would probably normally have been formed into cakes… and I rather suspect would have been somewhat harsher than what we've become accustomed to in our pampered age.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Dec 21, 2011)

That's more or less what I'd gathered. Well, the soap this character will be using is the finest quality soap available at the time, so though it may be harsh compared to what we're used to, it'll feel wonderful compared to what he's used to.

Well, it would, except he rejects it as too girly.


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## Ravana (Dec 21, 2011)

Ah: a devotee of the sandpaper approach to personal hygiene.


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## The Blue Lotus (Dec 21, 2011)

Yes soap was around even back then... It was usualy found inthe form of LYE soap. 

I have directions on how to make it if you want them.


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## Amanita (Dec 21, 2011)

This isn't an issue anymore here, but in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with things being around in a fantasy world if they're fairly easy to make with the means available. Even if no one in our world has made it up back than (which we often don't even know for sure). Why shouldn't it be there if it makes sense in their cultural context? 
It's fantasy and not historical fiction dealing with a specific earth time periode after all.


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## Steerpike (Dec 21, 2011)

I made some soap once, and it came out too harsh. On the other hand, if you had permanent ink stains on your hand, like from a Sharpie, it came right off


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## The Blue Lotus (Dec 21, 2011)

Fragrance can be added to hand hewn soaps like the old days by placing rose petals in the mix, lavander etc.  Makes for nice smelling soap and lye when done right is not course or harsh. I use it in the shower to this day... I have ulta nasty allergies to most things and it does keep me clean, with out drying too much and no HIVES! which is a good thing.  and since I make it I know what is in it.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Dec 21, 2011)

Amanita said:


> This isn't an issue anymore here, but in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with things being around in a fantasy world if they're fairly easy to make with the means available. Even if no one in our world has made it up back than (which we often don't even know for sure). Why shouldn't it be there if it makes sense in their cultural context?
> It's fantasy and not historical fiction dealing with a specific earth time periode after all.



Fair enough, it's just that if the milieu happens to resemble a particular period in Earth history, and there's something out of left field in there, it can be distracting and weird. (E.g. a regency romance where they just happen to have laser pistols, but none of the infrastructure that would be necessary to support something like laser pistols.)


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## SeverinR (Dec 23, 2011)

The Blue Lotus said:


> Fragrance can be added to hand hewn soaps like the old days by placing rose petals in the mix, lavander etc.  Makes for nice smelling soap and lye when done right is not course or harsh. I use it in the shower to this day... I have ulta nasty allergies to most things and it does keep me clean, with out drying too much and no HIVES! which is a good thing.  and since I make it I know what is in it.



I believe you are right, I also bet the lye soap we think of was intentionally harsh, for the exact reason Steerpike pointed out, it got tough stains off/out.
But I also bet the upper class had frilly soap that was easy on their skin.  Not sure if they would make the soap smell good, since they needed the fragrance oils to cover their normal scent (no anti-perspirant), I guess the extra aroma would just showed how rich you were.


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## quenchy (Dec 25, 2011)

My grandma still uses to make soap out of pig lard. It's pretty simple and straightforward - you just need fire, salt and a pot. It doesn't smell nice but it cleans well and can be used for all purposes - washing, dish washing and clothes washing. It's so primitive that it can be as ancient as the pottery (or earlier).


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## sashamerideth (Dec 26, 2011)

Soapnuts.  Just Google it. There are some fruits and nuts that are, well, soap.  Had a hippie friend give me a bag of them this Christmas. Weird gift, but I've already washed some clothes with them, seemed to work quite well.

Sent from my Blade using Forum Runner


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