# Black vs White symbolism



## Gryphos (May 25, 2015)

I thought this belonged in this section because it can concern how worlds and cultures are created and stuff. But anyways, I read an interesting thing.

Interesting thing: Writing with Color Ã¢€” Black and White Symbolism: A Look into the Trope...

And it really did get me thinking about the unbelievably common trope in fantasy about white/light = good and black/dark = bad. And the more I think about it, it is really stupid and, as the post claims, even harmful.

I myself was guilty of using some minor colour connotations in my work, calling a kind of magic 'the black arts', but not anymore. I've decided to change it to something less cliche and boring which doesn't rely on old-fashioned colour connotations. Maybe something like 'unhallowed arts' or 'eldritch arts'.

Just thought it was worth sharing.


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## Shreddies (May 25, 2015)

I think the reason the idea of white/light = good and black/dark = evil is so prevalent is because it is older than most cultures around today.

Due to additive mixing, light usually looks white (or at least very bright). You need light to see. With it you can see the dangers around you. It's warm (sunlight and firelight anyway), it comes from the sun (the main provider of life in the world), etc.

And dark/black is the color of night (the dead of night, I mean, not this namby-pamby 'twilight' business). Night is cold because the sun's gone. It's dangerous since you cannot see around you as well. Many predators (both real and from superstition) emerge at night to hunt, etc.

So I don't really see a problem with the light/good dark/evil tropes, aside from excessive oversaturation. Personally, I like black and white. They are poetic, _very_ beautiful, and as old as man himself, predating any ill-conceived notions of their use.

I _do_, however, see a problem using the terms black and white (and color in general) to refer to people. It's a cheap (and grossly inaccurate) label, based on their least interesting trait! They deserve to be treated with more respect than that (and so do the people!).

On an interesting side note: According to research done by a philologist by the name of Lazarus Geiger, every culture first had a word for white and black (or light and dark), and the next word for a color to come into existence (in every language studied around the world) was red, the color of blood and wine.

An interesting read, none-the-less.


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## Russ (May 25, 2015)

So I read the article and while I am very  much a proponent of socially consious diversity in literature I think the author's analysis goes a little too far in looking for racism where it may not be, and its analysis and conclusions are way too simplistic and self serving for my liking.

For example, the bold assertion that the term "black magic" is racist.  It's just not a supportable conclusion.

And black as a colour has not been used as simply a racist assault at all.  In fact the colour has been co-opted by some of the most racist groups in history.

If "white" means good or noble, somebody should have mentioned that to the SS who wore black dress uniforms, or to Mussilini's blackshirts, or other blackshirt groups of racist/fascist movements.  Or to the expression "black tie" which means a high class or formal event.

It strikes me that the black/white dichotomy and symbolism lies in the much older fear of night and safety of day or firelight.  A person is not scared of going into a dark cave because they are afraid a negro is going to jump out at them, they are scared because they cannot see or anticipate the hazards.

I agree the use of the term "black" and "white" is much trickier when it comes to race (where the proper terms have never simply been black or white etc) but I would suggest that the idea of "race" is a flawed social construct anyways, but that is a discussion for another time.


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## Penpilot (May 25, 2015)

Russ said:


> So I read the article and while I am very  much a proponent of socially consious diversity in literature I think the author's analysis goes a little too far in looking for racism where it may not be, and its analysis and conclusions are way too simplistic and self serving for my liking.
> 
> For example, the bold assertion that the term "black magic" is racist.  It's just not a supportable conclusion.



As an Asian, I'm not going to object to the Beatles song The Yellow Submarine, nor will I object to being listed in the Yellow Pages, nor will I object if someone offers to call a Yellow Cab for me. If you look for something, you will find it. It's called Selective Perception. https://explorable.com/selective-perception


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## Nagash (May 25, 2015)

In my opinion, looking for racism in older than dirt expressions and symbolism is very misguided. As mentioned above "black magic" isn't negative because of this "colonial idealism" according which there is a natural _hierarchy of races_ but because there has been, in the occidental imaginary, the idea of evil and good being symbolized through colors. What I mean is that the assimilation between "evil" and the color black is older than dirt, and largely predates the modern conflict between so-called races. Christian symbolism established black as the colorless embodiment of sorcery, evil and malady ("black plague"), and in later eras of our history, assimilated those who were considered as uncivilized to this amalgam. "Black people" are not black so much as they are brown, just like white people have a more beige tone of color on their flesh - religious dualism made it so that you could contemplate the embodiment of this symbolic in society, with this same opposition between black and white, the latter being the civilized counterpart of the much more primitive former.

"Black magic" is a notion that was sculpted by christianity, and which therefore bears some sense form a judeo-christian standpoint, but which wouldn't mean much in an other culture. Black has been the symbol of death and decay, just like it has been the symbol of the Earth Mother and rebirth - same for red, which can symbolize war and blood, or life and joy.

Without any offense meant to the author of this article, I find this constant search for racism (the modern notion, which stems from social darwinism) in much older concepts very crass and idiotic. Rest at ease Gryphos - I don't think any one will take offense from your usage of "black magic" in your books. At worst, those unfamiliar to this occidental notion will just have a hard time understanding it to its fullest.


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## Feo Takahari (May 26, 2015)

Hey, it's the folks Jabrosky has beef with.

I feel like the authors overplay their hand, and I don't really buy a lot of what they're posting, but I do like to complicate the dark-versus-light thing. I see darkness as fundamentally about concealment, and there's safety and security to being in the shadows while those who hate or fear you stick to the light. Conversely, light can be overwhelming, even burning, penetrating every corner and revealing every shame, denying any dignity to the victim. You can also match darkness to equality--no one is beautiful or ugly in the shadows.

(One thing I want to see someday is a stealth horror game where the threat is pure order and beauty, purging all that is disordered and wrong, and shadows are your only protection. Picture a lady in white, kneeling in a field, finding all the flowers that are the wrong color and pulling them up by the roots. Step out from the darkness of the trees, and her mouth opens impossibly wide and jagged fangs close on your head.)


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## Devor (May 26, 2015)

I would say it's unfortunate that we use the same words, white and black, for skin tone as we do for these basic concepts.  If there's something to change or "fix" here, it's the words we use for race, not the ones we use for light and dark.


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## Mythopoet (May 26, 2015)

Devor said:


> I would say it's unfortunate that we use the same words, white and black, for skin tone as we do for these basic concepts.  If there's something to change or "fix" here, it's the words we use for race, not the ones we use for light and dark.



Pretty much this. It makes NO SENSE at all to use "white" and "black" as racial labels since the races that we use those words for are not at all white or black. "White" people can be any variation on peach to pink to yellowish to brownish. And "Black" people run a whole spectrum of browns. If anything needs to change, it's using those words for race. 

White and Black equating to light and dark makes much more sense. Since, in general, we observe daylight as having a clear, white quality and night and darkness as being black.

As stated above, humanity's instinctive response to light and dark comes from the earliest times of our existence. It's ingrained in us on a subconscious level. Humans rely heavily on sight and we can only see when there is light reflecting off of objects and into our eyes. Thus light is safety to us, and darkness is danger. And this is clearly where the white vs. black dichotomy used throughout world literature comes from. Anyone who says differently is selling something. 

Though interestingly I've noticed that Japanese media seems more willing to play around with this concept and turn it around. The most prominent example is probably the manga/anime Bleach where the Shinigami dress in black with white accents and their most powerful enemies, the Arrancar, dress in white with black accents. All of the monstrous "Hollows" that it is the Shinigami's job to eradicate wear white masks.


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## Russ (May 26, 2015)

There are lots of heroes in modern western mythology who wear black as well.  For instance Johnny Cash who wears it as a sign of mourning, not evil.

Or the amazing "Chris" played by Yul Brenner in the Magnificent Seven.


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## X Equestris (May 26, 2015)

I feel like this is grasping at straws.  As others in his thread have mentioned, the light/dark opposition and their association with white and black are primordial.  That's not racism, that's something that is rooted in the human mind.  If someone decides to extrapolate this to race, then yes, that's racist, and it has been done before, but that doesn't mean every time someone uses white is good and black is bad symbolism that they're trying to tie it to race.  

And I have to agree with those in this thread saying that it's the words we use for race that are at fault, as they're pretty inaccurate to begin with.


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## Miskatonic (May 26, 2015)

Penpilot said:


> As an Asian, I'm not going to object to the Beatles song The Yellow Submarine, nor will I object to being listed in the Yellow Pages, nor will I object if someone offers to call a Yellow Cab for me. If you look for something, you will find it. It's called Selective Perception. https://explorable.com/selective-perception



Like when a few loons tried to say the Two Towers movie had some direct link to what happened on 9/11.


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## WooHooMan (May 26, 2015)

So, anyone know some other aesthetic to represent good and evil?
I remember reading that there was a Disney movie that used warm colors to signify good and cool colors to signify evil.  I've thought about trying that out.


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## Penpilot (May 27, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> So, anyone know some other aesthetic to represent good and evil?
> I remember reading that there was a Disney movie that used warm colors to signify good and cool colors to signify evil.  I've thought about trying that out.



One of the classics is beauty and ugliness, which is just as problematic.


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## Miskatonic (May 27, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> So, anyone know some other aesthetic to represent good and evil?
> I remember reading that there was a Disney movie that used warm colors to signify good and cool colors to signify evil.  I've thought about trying that out.



Evil can masquerade as good, so in that situation colors used are a misdirection.


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## WooHooMan (May 27, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> Evil can masquerade as good, so in that situation colors used are a misdirection.


Sure it can but that's not what I mean.  I'm curious if anyone has any alternatives to black/dark and white/light.


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## CupofJoe (May 27, 2015)

Almost any colour paring can be made in to Good vs Evil.
I think you have to pick one that works for you and then make it work for you.
I liked this page from TV Tropes Good Colors, Evil Colors.
Just about every colour is there and usually on more than one side...
And who says it has to be two colours, the Navajo have 4 colours in their world; White, Blue, Yellow and Black. None are good or bad on their own, but all can be seen in those way if the context is right. For example Black is the colour of the North. It is the colour of the earth that brings us food, and of cold winter winds and snow that freezes and kills, and of nights that let you see the stars and tell the old stories but also let the Wolf and Coyote hunt.
[This is how I have understood Navajo mythology and philosophy, if I have it wrong please excuse my ignorance]


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## Russ (May 27, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> Sure it can but that's not what I mean.  I'm curious if anyone has any alternatives to black/dark and white/light.



You can work with any dichotomy of your choosing.  Life/death.  Growth/Decay.  Truth/Lies.  Health/Illness.  Rich/poor.  Dry/Wet.

The possibilities to rework the traditional light dark are endless.


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## Devor (May 27, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> So, anyone know some other aesthetic to represent good and evil?
> I remember reading that there was a Disney movie that used warm colors to signify good and cool colors to signify evil.  I've thought about trying that out.



Disney often uses Lime Green to represent evil, and villains call everybody "Fools!" a lot.

I loosely intend to use puke green vs orange, as well as two different shades of purple, for good and evil, for the one project that uses actual visuals.


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## Legendary Sidekick (May 27, 2015)

You could tie colors to certain aspects of evil, like green for a demon-lord of envy. In ASoIaF, the most evil house in GRRM's horrible world is the Boltons'. Roose Bolton wears...
*PINK!
*​Pink is the color of your body (regardless of race) after your skin has been peeled off.

But anyway, what I mean is have a cult like the "Red Plumes" or something, where color may represent _Them_ even though that color isn't evil aside from that one aspect. In any of the above examples, green, pink or red could still represent peace, nature, baby girls, love, marriage, etc.



EDIT - It may be worth noting that we tie colors to concepts, but these vary from culture to culture. Having lined in both USA and Hong Kong, I know this:

US: black = funeral dress, white = wedding dress
HK: white = funeral dress, red = wedding dress

(Could you, therefore, have white = evil and red = holy?)


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## Laurence (May 27, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> *PINK!
> *​



Of all the pinks, you go for a light salmon.


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## Feo Takahari (May 28, 2015)

Devor said:


> Disney often uses Lime Green to represent evil, and villains call everybody "Fools!" a lot.
> 
> I loosely intend to use puke green vs orange, as well as two different shades of purple, for good and evil, for the one project that uses actual visuals.



Come to think of it, Harry Potter tends to use red for good and green for evil, with the exception that Harry has green eyes and Voldemort has red eyes.

And I would definitely use pink for evil. When I think pink, I think the color of a squashed mosquito after it's already sucked some of your blood.


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## WooHooMan (May 28, 2015)

Red and green makes sense since they're opposite each other on the color wheel.
They make as much sense as any other pair of complimentary colors anyways.

I also like the Conan movie's symbology: steel vs. flesh, sword vs. sorcery, good (more or less) vs. evil


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## Mindfire (May 29, 2015)

As I see it, there is something to this, but the article touches on it only obliquely. The real issue is not the colors black and white and their symbolism, but rather that fantasy has the unfortunate habit of basing many of its villainous characters and races on non-"white" cultures. Some of that sort of blends into the color thing, but the real problem is that in so much of our media darker _skin, hair, and eyes_ is equated to someone or a group of people being less virtuous than people of lighter skin, hair, and eyes. The blonde, blue-eyed hero (or innocent damsel) is a clichÃ© for precisely this reason. And it is unquestionably true that our media unconsciously considers darker people less attractive on the average than lighter people, to the point of photoshopping people of color to give them an appearance that is thought to be more acceptable to the (White) masses. There's also a body shape/image component to this but that could be its own discussion. 

But bringing this back to fantasy, how about C.S. Lewis's Calormenes? I love Lewis's work, and the unfortunate implications of him making the Evil Empire dark-skinned, vaguely Middle Eastern people are blunted somewhat by good characters like Aravis and Emeth, but those implications are still there. And while Tolkien didn't give much information about the Haradrim, Corsairs, and Easterlings in his books, the movies made the questionable choice of choosing to portray them as vaguely Middle-Eastern and Asian while keeping the good nations starkly European. And then there's the fact that pseudo-Europe has become essentially the default fantasy setting and anything outside of that is often hard to find at your local bookstore.

However, while the color symbolism of black and white may not be the root of the problem here, I think it does contribute. Because, unfortunately, we live in a culture where people of certain skin tones are referred to as colors instead of anything that makes actual sense. So while the associations of black = evil and white = good aren't the cause of the problem, they sure aren't helping. So I'd say, if for no other reason than to do something fresh, it might be beneficial to take a step away from some of our familiar color symbolism. That's my choice. I avoid using black or dark to refer to evil, not only to be conscious of things like this, but also because I find it's a nice safeguard against lazy clichÃ©s. One of the best ways to prevent yourself from creating yet another Dark Lord or Black Legion is to simply remove those words from your vocabulary. When you do that, some interesting possibilities emerge. For example, I use the color grey to symbolize evil instead of black. Grey represents ash, and therefore death and destruction. "Black-and-white" is often used as a shorthand for clarity and understanding, meaning that something is plain and obvious. Via the yin-yang symbol they also have connotations of balance and harmony. Grey therefore represents confusion, chaos, uncertainty: the perfect breeding ground for evil. Grey also represents moral apathy, doing evil not because you delight in doing evil, but simply because you don't care about the difference between good and evil at all. You're lost in the fog. You don't see black and white anymore. You live in the grey area. Grey represents an evil that is subtle, seductive, and insidious, seeking to corrupt goodness rather than outright oppose it. Grey is what happens when you let go of conscience.


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## Tom (May 29, 2015)

Feo Takahari said:


> Come to think of it, Harry Potter tends to use red for good and green for evil, with the exception that Harry has green eyes and Voldemort has red eyes.



Traditionally, green is the color of evil. I'm using that symbolism in Southerner, where the Faerie magic manifests as pale green fire, and Faeries themselves have green eyes and bioluminescent green skin markings.


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## Devor (May 29, 2015)

Mindfire said:


> But bringing this back to fantasy, how about C.S. Lewis's Calormenes? I love Lewis's work, and the unfortunate implications of him making the Evil Empire dark-skinned, vaguely Middle Eastern people are blunted somewhat by good characters like Aravis and Emeth, but those implications are still there. And while Tolkien didn't give much information about the Haradrim, Corsairs, and Easterlings in his books, the movies made the questionable choice of choosing to portray them as vaguely Middle-Eastern and Asian while keeping the good nations starkly European. And then there's the fact that pseudo-Europe has become essentially the default fantasy setting and anything outside of that is often hard to find at your local bookstore.



I don't know if it makes a difference to anybody, but as I understand it, the bad guy humans in those books were based deliberately on Carthage.


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## Mindfire (May 29, 2015)

Devor said:


> I don't know if it makes a difference to anybody, but as I understand it, the bad guy humans in those books were based deliberately on Carthage.



Really? They seemed more Moorish to me. Either way, they're brown people, so those unfortunate implications are still there.


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## Devor (May 29, 2015)

Mindfire said:


> Really? They seemed more Moorish to me. Either way, they're brown people, so those unfortunate implications are still there.



I just looked it up, and according to wikipedia the claim is more speculative than I remembered.  But the argument reads pretty strong to me.


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## X Equestris (May 29, 2015)

Going by Tolkien's intent that his world is a simply our world in the far distant past, I've seen it theorized that the Haradrim, Easterlings, etc. are the Indo-European peoples who would go on to become the ancestors of modern Europeans.


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## Legendary Sidekick (May 29, 2015)

Mindfire said:


> Grey also represents moral apathy


I actually use this, making demonic creatures grayscale—my own personal thought behind the symbolism being that the truly evil aren't evil for the sake of being evil. They're evil because they don't believe good and evil are even a thing, so selfish actions, screwing over others, and other deplorable actions are justified as "hey, it's working out for ME."


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## Mindfire (May 29, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> I actually use this, making demonic creatures grayscale—my own personal thought behind the symbolism being that the truly evil aren't evil for the sake of being evil. They're evil because they don't believe good and evil are even a thing, so selfish actions, screwing over others, and other deplorable actions are justified as "hey, it's working out for ME."



I also make use of that kind of thinking.


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## Mindfire (May 29, 2015)

X Equestris said:


> Going by Tolkien's intent that his world is a simply our world in the far distant past, I've seen it theorized that the Haradrim, Easterlings, etc. are the Indo-European peoples who would go on to become the ancestors of modern Europeans.



That may be the case. But like I said, I haven't gleaned enough from Tolkien's work to say for sure what they were meant to be. But the Jackson movies however, much as I love them, did fall headlong into some unintentional racism.


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## Gurkhal (May 30, 2015)

Mindfire said:


> That may be the case. But like I said, I haven't gleaned enough from Tolkien's work to say for sure what they were meant to be. But the Jackson movies however, much as I love them, did fall headlong into some unintentional racism.



Let's not confuse Jackson with Tolkien. Jackson for example never gets the oppertunity to show the asshole elves like Feanor's sons or the Numenorians who despite being in the farest west you can get, and white, also becomes evil as hell without help by either Morgoth or Sauron, except on the final push down into the abyss. Not mention that the, to my knowledge, white Dunlendings who fought with the Orcs for Saruman were cut etc.

Also note that Tolkien seldom or never says that these people are evil by nature, but as far as my admittedly limited reading goes, they are more misguided and rather happy to make and keep peace with Gondor and Rohan after Sauron has been defeated. To that comes Sam's monologe about the fallen Harandrim who lands next to him etc.

We shouldn't mix up "misguided" with "evil".

But neither should we forget that there is a great deal of rascism in Tolkien's works but that discussion should be as informed on the subject as possible.


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## Mindfire (May 30, 2015)

I don't mean to conflate the two. My point was that while I didn't spot any overt racism in the books, the movies made some unfortunate  decisions.


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## Tom (May 30, 2015)

Gurkhal said:


> Let's not confuse Jackson with Tolkien. Jackson for example never gets the oppertunity to show the asshole elves like Feanor's sons



Oh my God, Feanor is the asshole of assholes. And so are his sons. Why does nobody ever focus on the racism found within the elvish society? Despite being all white (or what we'd think of white), there were so many inherent prejudices between the different offshoots. The Eldar looked down on the Moriquendi, for example, since they refused to go to Valinor. And High Elves considered themselves more civilized than the Sindar.


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## WooHooMan (May 30, 2015)

So, Tolkien's possible racist implications aside...

How about fire and ice to represent good and evil?  Fire has always been used as a symbol of knowledge and most people prefer warmth over coldness.  And visually, the two elements are pretty distinct.


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## Ireth (May 30, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> So, Tolkien's possible racist implications aside...
> 
> How about fire and ice to represent good and evil?  Fire has always been used as a symbol of knowledge and most people prefer warmth over coldness.  And visually, the two elements are pretty distinct.



Something like that occurs in Celtic mythology, with the two Fae Courts of Summer and Winter (or Seelie and Unseelie). The Seelie are typically viewed as kinder to humans than the Unseelie. Though they wouldn't really call themselves "good" or "evil", just varying shades of neutral.


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## X Equestris (May 30, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> So, Tolkien's possible racist implications aside...
> 
> How about fire and ice to represent good and evil?  Fire has always been used as a symbol of knowledge and most people prefer warmth over coldness.  And visually, the two elements are pretty distinct.



That can work.  It's done in A Song of Ice and Fire, though like with most of its symbolism, it's not entirely one sided.  Of course, just like with black and white, the symbolism can cut both ways.  Fire can be destructive, while ice can be considered good in certain situations.


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## ascanius (May 30, 2015)

Feo Takahari said:


> Hey, it's the folks Jabrosky has beef with.
> 
> I feel like the authors overplay their hand, and I don't really buy a lot of what they're posting, but I do like to complicate the dark-versus-light thing. I see darkness as fundamentally about concealment, and there's safety and security to being in the shadows while those who hate or fear you stick to the light. Conversely, light can be overwhelming, even burning, penetrating every corner and revealing every shame, denying any dignity to the victim. You can also match darkness to equality--no one is beautiful or ugly in the shadows.
> 
> (One thing I want to see someday is a stealth horror game where the threat is pure order and beauty, purging all that is disordered and wrong, and shadows are your only protection. Picture a lady in white, kneeling in a field, finding all the flowers that are the wrong color and pulling them up by the roots. Step out from the darkness of the trees, and her mouth opens impossibly wide and jagged fangs close on your head.)



That sounds like a really cool game idea, though it think a fps/rpg with stealth elements would work better.  Especially if the goal is to create chaos and break the order.

Anyway back on topic.  I don't buy a lot of what the author of the article mentions as others have said.  One thing I noticed that I do is use colors to contrast emotions or events.  Most often the color is the opposite of the normal symbolism.  For instance I have one scene where one of the heroins escapes a pit of hell where she grew up, she comes out and is debating just giving up and dying.  I contrast this suicidal thought with a peace and tranquility only found in the depths of night where the stars show the heartbeat of a slumbering world at peace.  Ok I went a little poetic there.  I agree with Feo though light/white can be just as evil.


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## WooHooMan (May 30, 2015)

I theorize that every cliche began as a subversion of an older cliche.  White/light vs. black/dark as a representation of morality is old hat regardless of which one is good and which one is evil.

I'd prefer it if writers try to come up with some other way of visually/metaphorically representing morality.

For example, Neverending Story did a neat "nothingness=evil and substance=goodness" thing. Which makes as much sense as dark and light since darkness is literally just the absence of light rather than a separate element.


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## Laurence (May 31, 2015)

Why has nobody done shirts vs skins in fantasy yet?


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## WooHooMan (May 31, 2015)

Laurence said:


> Why has nobody done shirts vs skins in fantasy yet?



Barbarian heroes tend to be shirtless so I guess that's something.


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## DeathtoTrite (May 31, 2015)

I have to disagree with the article... a lot. Trying to say that any case of black and white is a case of ingrained racism is pretty stupid actually. I don't think anyone reading about the Dark Tower of Mordor was thinking "oh no, here come the ethnically diverse people!" Same applies to Nazgul. As someone already pointed out, plenty of white supremacist groups have gone for black uniforms. If black==impure, clearly the SS were not informed. 

We fear the dark because its the unknown, not because of some ingrained racism. Yes, some things portray ethnicity of non white races with questionable motives. No, this in no way characterizes the whole trope. 

What I dislike more about this article is it perverts the writing process from a creative exercise in discipline into trying to achieve a goal probably not originally intended in the story and one that will transforms your work into a political soapbox.


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## Hainted (May 31, 2015)

Everybody assumes light is the fastest thing in the universe. What they forget is wherever the light goes, the dark is already there...waiting.


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## WooHooMan (Jun 1, 2015)

DeathtoTrite said:


> I don't think anyone reading about the Dark Tower of Mordor was thinking "oh no, here come the ethnically diverse people!".



I did.  In fact, I read a thing that argued Tolkien intentionally put racist implications in his work to make them seem more archaic.

But be that as it may or may not be, I think this interpretation of the cliche just proves it's a dumb, dated cliche and it's about time we get rid of it.


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## Mindfire (Jun 1, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> I did.  In fact, I read a thing that argued Tolkien intentionally put racist implications in his work to make them seem more archaic.
> 
> But be that as it may or may not be, I think this interpretation of the cliche just proves it's a dumb, dated cliche and it's about time we get rid of it.



I wouldn't go that far. Things stick around long enough to become clichÃ©s for a reason. Though they may send unintentionally harmful messages, I don't think we should get rid of them altogether. (Baby, bathwater.) But rather, we should seek to understand them, understand why they are so resonant and enduring, and then either use or subvert them in a way that is intelligent and furthers the story we seek to tell.


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## Reaver (Jun 1, 2015)

Mindfire said:


> I wouldn't go that far. Things stick around long enough to become clichÃ©s for a reason. Though they may send unintentionally harmful messages, I don't think we should get rid of them altogether. (Baby, bathwater.) But rather, we should seek to understand them, understand why they are so resonant and enduring, and then either use or subvert them in a way that is intelligent and furthers the story we seek to tell.



Very well said, Mindfire.


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## Ireth (Jun 1, 2015)

Mindfire said:


> I wouldn't go that far. Things stick around long enough to become clichÃ©s for a reason. Though they may send unintentionally harmful messages, I don't think we should get rid of them altogether. (Baby, bathwater.) But rather, we should seek to understand them, understand why they are so resonant and enduring, and then either use or subvert them in a way that is intelligent and furthers the story we seek to tell.



On the topic of subverting (or rather, inverting) the black/white cliche, I find Disney's _Tarzan_ to be an interesting example. In the jungle, light is bad and dark is good. Light represents sunlight, exposure and danger; dark represents shade, cover and safety.


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## DeathtoTrite (Jun 1, 2015)

Its overused in the sense that "Oh no, the big bad black doomey doom villain! A far more interesting subversion, in my mind, is not dark good, white bad, but black and white are together and are both evil in that austere sinister way.


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## WooHooMan (Jun 1, 2015)

DeathtoTrite said:


> Its overused in the sense that "Oh no, the big bad black doomey doom villain! A far more interesting subversion, in my mind, is not dark good, white bad, but black and white are together and are both evil in that austere sinister way.



Like a yin-yang type thing?  I'm a little surprised those aren't more common.
Although, I think a more interesting "subversion" is to have good and evil but find a more unique way of symbolizing them.  I think that's all I've been talking about this whole thread.



Mindfire said:


> I wouldn't go that far. Things stick around long enough to become clichÃ©s for a reason. Though they may send unintentionally harmful messages, I don't think we should get rid of them altogether. (Baby, bathwater.) But rather, we should seek to understand them, understand why they are so resonant and enduring, and then either use or subvert them in a way that is intelligent and furthers the story we seek to tell.



I don't think anyone cares about the unintentional harmful messages and I doubt too many people don't understand why the cliche worked.
I think we should encourage people to find new approaches to symbolizing concepts like morality rather than encouraging people to stick with the old symbols because they've worked in the past.  I also don't think simply subverting cliches is especially impressive to the point where it should be encouraged over inventing new approaches.
Am I making sense?  It's late and I've had a long day.


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## Miskatonic (Jun 11, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> Like a yin-yang type thing?  I'm a little surprised those aren't more common.
> Although, I think a more interesting "subversion" is to have good and evil but find a more unique way of symbolizing them.  I think that's all I've been talking about this whole thread.
> 
> 
> ...



What's wrong with everyone deciding what type of audience they want to address with their interpretation of morality so people will gravitate towards what they enjoy and relate to? I don't see the point of turning literature into social engineering. 

There are a lot of different points of view to cover a full spectrum of interpretations of morality without having to demonize one or the other.

Gaijin Saga deals with Islam, Buddhism, Confucianism, Christianity, etc. A big part of the story is understanding these spiritual paths and the cultures that have embraced them. My other story is probably going to appeal to a majority white audience that likes that type of world, though there still will be elements of non-white cultures in there.

Diversity is a variety of outlooks, so if that's what we want we should embrace it.


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## WooHooMan (Jun 11, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> What's wrong with everyone deciding what type of audience they want to address with their interpretation of morality so people will gravitate towards what they enjoy and relate to? I don't see the point of turning literature into social engineering.
> 
> There are a lot of different points of view to cover a full spectrum of interpretations of morality without having to demonize one or the other.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry but I'm a little confused as to what you're saying here.  I don't think I've said that people shouldn't portray different interpretations of morality and I've been actively speaking in favor of finding diverse/different ways of portraying convention good vs. evil morality.

I have no idea what your talking about with "social engineering" or religions or white audiences liking non-white whatevers - like, I seriously don't know what you're getting at.  I feel like you're putting words in my mouth.

Did you just make this reply to plug your story?

I think maybe we should make the thread's subject clear: we are only talking about moral absolutism (good vs. evil).  Other systems of morality exists and absolutely can/should be written about but they are irrelevant to this specific thread.
On the subject of moral absolutism, we are talking about visual symbols meant to represent good and evil.
I'm arguing in favor of finding new ways to express the dichotomy of good and evil without relying on the time-worn "black vs. white" symbol.


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## Miskatonic (Jun 11, 2015)

Nah not trying to plug my story.  I did misinterpret some of what you are saying. 



> I think we should encourage people to find new approaches to symbolizing concepts like morality rather than encouraging people to stick with the old symbols because they've worked in the past.



I interpreted that in the wrong way. Replacing symbolism from the past with something else, assuming the past symbols were somehow wrong or bad. Hence trying to influence the general idea of morality, thus social engineering. I missed the mark by a long shot on this one now that I read it in the real context.

The thread's subject has weaved all over the place, so what you were referring to in your post might have come across as referring to something else where your dialog with Mindfire was concerned. I thought you were talking about presenting a different approach to interpreting morality, coming from a cultural standpoint and not the basic duality of good and evil. 

My apologies, wasn't trying to come across as combative or trying to put words in your mouth.

I guess sometimes we make an ass out of ourselves for everyone else to see.


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## WooHooMan (Jun 11, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> My apologies, wasn't trying to come across as combative or trying to put words in your mouth.
> 
> I guess sometimes we make an ass out of ourselves for everyone else to see.



Hey, don't worry about it.  No one can ever keep track of who says what in a thread that's been going on after three pages.  That's just how forums seem to work.


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