# Darth Vader to return in next Star Wars film?



## Steerpike

That's what is going through the rumor mill:

INSANE RUMOR OF THE YEAR: DARTH VADER TO BE RESURRECTED IN STAR WARS VII? | geekleagueofamerica.com


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## Zero Angel

I could see someone else wearing the armor, but not Anakin...unless they go sideways and back instead of forwards in time.

Additionally, I know one of my Spectrum art books has artwork featuring a dark side Luke Skywalker being defeated by Leia.


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## Anders Ã„mting

God, I hope not. I think it would be kinda sad if Disney is really insecure enough to raise a beloved popculture icon from his grave just to sell a Star Wars movie rather than, you know, actually trying to create a new one. At some point you have to let go of the nostalgia and actually dare look to the future.

Besides, I personally think that Vader is just a_ bit _overrated as a villain. A great character, sure, but kinda dull. Not really one of my favourites.



> “He’s an integral part of the franchise. Replacing him is virtually impossible."



Yeah, no. There's been plenty of pretty good Star Wars stories that didn't feature him. He's not really that essential.


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## Reaver

It wouldn't surprise me in the least. Lucas took a giant shit on the Star Wars franchise by allowing  Episodes I, II & III to see the light of day just so he could make a little money, so why wouldn't the Disney juggernaut do something as perverse?


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## Zero Angel

This just reminds me of how often the Doctor Who series has resurrected the Master from the grave. 

I mean, he's gone through not just 13 incarnations, but more than one regeneration cycle and has come back from being dead-dead (as opposed to Time-Lord-regenerating-dead or zombie-dead).


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## wordwalker

Zero Angel said:


> This just reminds me of how often the Doctor Who series has resurrected the Master from the grave.
> 
> I mean, he's gone through not just 13 incarnations, but more than one regeneration cycle and has come back from being dead-dead (as opposed to Time-Lord-regenerating-dead or zombie-dead).



Closed arc of a set of movies, as opposed to ongoing TV. Except the marketers don't know the difference.


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## Jess A

Zero Angel said:


> This just reminds me of how often the Doctor Who series has resurrected the Master from the grave.
> 
> I mean, he's gone through not just 13 incarnations, but more than one regeneration cycle and has come back from being dead-dead (as opposed to Time-Lord-regenerating-dead or zombie-dead).



Not to mention the Daleks.


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## Joe the Gnarled

I would like to see them take up the series with the Timothy Zhan trilogy.  As far as I know, they were the first books written in the larger Star Wars universe.  The books start out with Han and Leia being pregnant with twins, and a Grand Admiral from the outer rim reuniting the remnants of the empire.  The books were really well done and would translate easily to film.  Problem is getting a cast together that could play the characters 5 years after A New Hope.  I don't think Carey Fischer, Mark Hamill and Harrison Ford are up to the task (maybe Harrison Ford, but def not the others).


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## Steerpike

I think they said the new movie would be an all-new story and wouldn't follow any books in the EU. Which is too bad.


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## Zero Angel

Steerpike said:


> I think they said the new movie would be an all-new story and wouldn't follow any books in the EU. Which is too bad.



The last article I read on this said the same thing. The storyline would be original. (although I am sure they will borrow ideas!)


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## Mindfire

I _think_ what they mean is that they're going to create a new villain _in the spirit_ of Darth Vader, which isn't a bad idea. Either that or they're making an alternate universe, which also isn't a bad idea.


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## Steerpike

Or they could have a new sith find Anakin's old suit or construct a new on as an homage. So not only in the spirit but looking just like Vader. Maybe he'll even adopt the Vader name to invoke fear.


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## Zero Angel

Mindfire said:


> I _think_ what they mean is that they're going to create a new villain _in the spirit_ of Darth Vader, which isn't a bad idea. Either that or they're making an alternate universe, which also isn't a bad idea.



oooo! Let's go comic book/anime on Star Wars! Alternate universes could be fun!

Speaking of comic books, I've heard that the one possible big loser in all this is Dark Horse.


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## Zero Angel

Steerpike said:


> Or they could have a new sith find Anakin's old suit or construct a new on as an homage. So not only in the spirit but looking just like Vader. Maybe he'll even adopt the Vader name to invoke fear.



I doubt they will be able to find his suit...unless he had multiple suits available.

I wouldn't be surprised if they just droided out and had 987235897345 suits. If technology improved as well, or with some sort of clone tech, they might be able to have the droids have force powers as well. That would be cool. That would probably be the route I went.


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## Mindfire

Hopefully we'll get to see some _real_ Jedi in the new movies. It always mystified me that Jedi in the films were so weak, especially in the Original Trilogy. I'd like to see Jedi who are more on level with the powers we see in the Force Unleashed. Now that'd be awesome. Jedi who can do stuff like this:






Now THAT's more like it!


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## ALB2012

Little Storm Cloud said:


> Not to mention the Daleks.



Yes but Dr Who is a Time Lord and so the Daleks or the Master can escape sideways, backwards or diagonally as it were.

Ok this is going to make me look like a complete geek but didn't the Emperor come back, his spirit came back and inhabited a clone? Not sure which book though.


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## ALB2012

Zero Angel said:


> I doubt they will be able to find his suit...unless he had multiple suits available.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if they just droided out and had 987235897345 suits. If technology improved as well, or with some sort of clone tech, they might be able to have the droids have force powers as well. That would be cool. That would probably be the route I went.



Technically you have to be alive to have force powers so droids don't get them, well apart from R2D2... but he is R2. 
I know in the RPG cyborgs like Vader gained more darkside points due to the "corruption" of the cyberware. 
Ok I am off to sit in the geek corner now


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## Zero Angel

ALB2012 said:


> Technically you have to be alive to have force powers so droids don't get them, well apart from R2D2... but he is R2.
> I know in the RPG cyborgs like Vader gained more darkside points due to the "corruption" of the cyberware.
> Ok I am off to sit in the geek corner now



Right that's why I mentioned the clone tech...do clones get force powers? Grievous was a very droidy cyborg.





.....wait, R2 gets force powers?


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## thedarknessrising




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## ALB2012

Zero Angel said:


> Right that's why I mentioned the clone tech...do clones get force powers? Grievous was a very droidy cyborg.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .....wait, R2 gets force powers?



Not exactly. I used to GM Starwars RPG and I know droids couldnt get force points (not powers only jedi get those) but R2 did have force points. I think R2 was...well R2 he was not the same as other droids. Only living things can connect to the force. Some were more sensitive that others.

Clones- in theory yes. Although they would probably be rubbish jedis. You probably don't want to think about Boba Fett with force powers.



.....wait, R2 gets force powers?


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## Benjamin Clayborne

Mindfire said:


> Hopefully we'll get to see some _real_ Jedi in the new movies. It always mystified me that Jedi in the films were so weak, especially in the Original Trilogy. I'd like to see Jedi who are more on level with the powers we see in the Force Unleashed. Now that'd be awesome. Jedi who can do stuff like this:
> 
> Now THAT's more like it!



I don't really know if what Star Wars needs is to be _more_ cartoonish.


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## Mindfire

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> I don't really know if what Star Wars needs is to be _more_ cartoonish.



It doesn't have to be cartoonish. Maybe the Avengers has spoiled me, but I've had it with weak, low-power Jedi. It's always bothered me, but now I'm just fed up with it. The Jedi are built up as these mystical, powerful warriors, but what can they do? Levitate small objects, push people, and jump really high. _Boring._ Master Yoda is the most powerful Jedi we ever see, but the things he does in the movies would be a tutorial in the Force Unleashed. Force powers should be _impressive and awe-inspiring._ Simple chokes, throws, and pushes might have been impressive once upon a time, but nowadays not so much. Also, no more battle droids. I'm kinda tired of them.


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## Benjamin Clayborne

Mindfire said:


> It doesn't have to be cartoonish. Maybe the Avengers has spoiled me, but I've had it with weak, low-power Jedi. It's always bothered me, but now I'm just fed up with it. The Jedi are built up as these mystical, powerful warriors, but what can they do? Levitate small objects, push people, and jump really high. _Boring._ Master Yoda is the most powerful Jedi we ever see, but the things he does in the movies would be a tutorial in the Force Unleashed. Force powers should be _impressive and awe-inspiring._ Simple chokes, throws, and pushes might have been impressive once upon a time, but nowadays not so much. Also, no more battle droids. I'm kinda tired of them.



In good storytelling, the superpowers are the _least_ interesting aspect of the characters. Yes, it stokes our inner fanboys to see Yoda flippin' around dealin' death (man, I _freaked out_ during his duel at the end of Episode II, before I realized how crappy the movie was), but it's not all that interesting.


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## Mindfire

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> In good storytelling, the superpowers are the _least_ interesting aspect of the characters. Yes, it stokes our inner fanboys to see Yoda flippin' around dealin' death (man, I _freaked out_ during his duel at the end of Episode II, before I realized how crappy the movie was), but it's not all that interesting.



True, storytelling takes paramount importance. But I feel that if you build up the Jedi as being great and powerful, you need to deliver on that promise. So far, none of the movies have really done that, though Episode 3 comes close. What we are _told_ about the Jedi does not match what we are _shown_ about them. And that's what irritates me. It wouldn't be so bad if the movies didn't spend so much time telling us how awesome they are. If they were only supposed to be ordinary warrior mystics, it'd be fine. But the movies build them up _so much_ that when you see what they can really do, it's a little disappointing. The worst part is when the Jedi and Sith _themselves_ talk about how awesome they are, despite the fact that the in-movie powers are mostly underwhelming.

Episode 2: 
"Powerful you have become, Dooku."
But all he did was move a few rocks...

Episode 5:
"Impressive. Most impressive."
Really? Because all Luke did was _jump over your head_, Vader. How is that impressive? That's not even a Force power, it's standard Jedi training.

It also creates this continuity rift between the movies and the supporting material. In the games, cartoons, and some of the books the feats the Jedi and Sith accomplish are so great it feels like the movies and the supporting material are living in two different universes. Have you seen the list of force powers that appear in the expanded universe? And of all of them, only 5 or so are seen in the films.


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## Zero Angel

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> In good storytelling, the superpowers are the _least_ interesting aspect of the characters. Yes, it stokes our inner fanboys to see Yoda flippin' around dealin' death (man, I _freaked out_ during his duel at the end of Episode II, before I realized how crappy the movie was), but it's not all that interesting.



So although their characters need to be very interesting on their own with or without superpowers, I think superpowers are extremely cool and interesting and should be included in addition to having a good storyline with deep characters and the superpowers should themselves be interesting and exciting. 

There's a reason I enjoy fantasy and science fiction so much...and it's not because of low-powered characters.


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## Steerpike

I like fantasy and science fiction, but I often hate over-powered characters. Some of them work for me, but as a rule I find low-powered characters more interesting.


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## Mindfire

Steerpike said:


> I like fantasy and science fiction, but I often hate over-powered characters. Some of them work for me, but as a rule I find low-powered characters more interesting.



Why exactly? A well developed character is a well developed character regardless of power level. And powerful characters have the bonus of being good for huge awesome moments that you don't get from low-power characters.


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## Mindfire

Zero Angel said:


> So although their characters need to be very interesting on their own with or without superpowers, I think superpowers are extremely cool and interesting and should be included in addition to having a good storyline with deep characters and the superpowers should themselves be interesting and exciting.
> 
> There's a reason I enjoy fantasy and science fiction so much...and it's not because of low-powered characters.



I heartily concur.


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## Steerpike

Mindfire said:


> Why exactly? A well developed character is a well developed character regardless of power level. And powerful characters have the bonus of being good for huge awesome moments that you don't get from low-power characters.



High-powered characters strike me as cartoonish and cheesy, by and large. That's one reason even my D&D sessions are pretty low-powered, both in terms of setting and character. If I'm playing in a table-top RPG session that turns into some kind of uber-powered, anime-like magic fest I want to spoon out my own eyes. I like the power levels in the original Star Wars movies better than some of what came later. Actually, there's good reason why Luke wouldn't be able to do all kinds of crazy stuff, but explaining why Vader can't do more in the original movies is a bit harder if you look at the extended universe stuff, or even the prequels. His power was reduced after fighting Obi-Wan and needing the suit?


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## Mindfire

Steerpike said:


> His power was reduced after fighting Obi-Wan and needing the suit?



That's the usual explanation. But that's rather irrelevant. I say that if you make promises to your audience you are obliged to keep them. And the fact is that the Star Wars movies do not deliver on the promises of Jedi awesomeness that they made by hyping up the Order and making them into legends. Even the Sith, while overall great villains, still don't live up to their hype.


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## Zero Angel

See, even so-called "low-powered" characters I think people wouldn't root for them if they weren't super-powered in _some_ way. Now, that way may be that because they have low magick they trained really hard or are an amazing military genius of some sort or whatever, but if they are _truly_ low-powered then either they're lucky and their survival is through no doing of their own or they're dead. 

If most people say they don't want to see high-powered characters, I am assuming they mean that this is because high-powered characters generally are not handled well. The powers have a tendency of overshadowing the characters instead of just being their talent. Also, the powers are generally received a little too cheaply and there is frequently little consequence to their use. Then the powers take the place of the luck of the low-powered character. No matter how you slice it, it seems Deus Ex-y to me. But this is a failure in writing, not in power. 

The alternative of course is your low-powered character doesn't do anything of consequence and they participate in more "day-in-the-life" type stories. If that is your cup of tea, then OK, but well, that's not what interests me.

To summarize: I am against using powers as a Deus ex Machina device. I am against low-powered characters surviving on luck alone (at least more than a few times). I am against powers without consequence. But I am a firm believer that more powers more problems. If you have power, then that means you can handle more and more can be thrown at you. The stronger you become, the more you can overcome and the farther you can fall. 

And I always subscribed to the belief that Darth Vader chose not to use his powers fully because he felt the relation to his son through the force.


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## Benjamin Clayborne

Mindfire said:


> That's the usual explanation. But that's rather irrelevant. I say that if you make promises to your audience you are obliged to keep them. And the fact is that the Star Wars movies do not deliver on the promises of Jedi awesomeness that they made by hyping up the Order and making them into legends. Even the Sith, while overall great villains, still don't live up to their hype.



What promises? To my knowledge, nothing in the Original Trilogy (OT) held the Jedi out to be superpowered badasses. The Jedi were exactly as powerful as they needed to be. (When the Emperor had this sudden new awesome lightning ability and _didn't even use a lightsaber_, we all thought that was the amazingest thing ever.)

In the interim between the OT and the Prequel Trilogy (PT), the Expanded Universe started up, and we got dozens of novels and other (semi-to-fully-canonical) material, which started depicting the Jedi as having all these other powers, like they were level 15 D&D wizards. I'm recalling specifically the Dark Empire comic series, which showed how the Emperor could create a giant Force Storm the size of a planet. (Why he didn't do this during the Battle of Endor to wipe out the Rebel fleet, I have no idea. ) To me, the most interesting of the EU novels were the ones that _didn't_ focus on the Jedi: Wraith Squadron, the Corellia trilogy, and so on. (Actually, the Thrawn trilogy still stands up; it does focus on Jedi but it doesn't radically expand their powers. In fact it makes their lives harder by way of the ysalamiri. Only the bad guys get more powers. That's good storytelling.)

Then the PT came out. If you're complaining that the PT didn't hold up to what the EU had shown Jedi capable of, my response is: So what? The PT sucks. Worrying about some specific detail of world-building is irrelevant in the face of how awful the writing and storytelling were. In any event, the problem is that the EU should have been reined in, not that the movies should have shown the Jedi being even more powerful. Trust me, nobody back in 1983 was saying, "Pfft, those Jedi are weak, they should have been way more powerful!"

Also:



> "Impressive. Most impressive."
> Really? Because all Luke did was jump over your head, Vader. How is that impressive? That's not even a Force power, it's standard Jedi training.



Luke used the Force to jump that high; that's not something a human body is capable of on its own, no matter how much training you undergo. What was impressive is that Luke had gotten so far in his Force studies so fast; Vader knew that normally Jedi spent years getting to that point, and Luke had gotten there in a few weeks/months (the amount of time he's on Dagobah is unclear).

Maybe you don't find that impressive, but I'd say that's because the EU and PT have ruined your perspective.


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## Anders Ã„mting

Mindfire said:


> I _think_ what they mean is that they're going to create a new villain _in the spirit_ of Darth Vader,



So, basically this guy then?

I dunno... this whole approach just seems kinda lazy.



Mindfire said:


> Hopefully we'll get to see some _real_ Jedi in the new movies. It always mystified me that Jedi in the films were so weak, especially in the Original Trilogy. I'd like to see Jedi who are more on level with the powers we see in the Force Unleashed. Now that'd be awesome. Jedi who can do stuff like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now THAT's more like it!



Your milage may vary, but personally I dislike stuff like the first Clone Wars cartoon, where they seem to want to turn the Jedi into a bunch of unstoppable super heroes. Actually, the reason I'm a huge fan of the CGI cartoon is because it usually stays very close to the movies in terms of style and power levels.

I don't think the Jedi and Sith were ever meant to be godlike - there is nothing in the original trilogy supporting that. I think they were always meant to be just an order of spiritual warriors: Exceptional in body and spirit, but tragically mortal in the end.



Zero Angel said:


> Right that's why I mentioned the clone tech...do clones get force powers? Grievous was a very droidy cyborg.



Grievous didn't have Force powers, though. He was just a guy who liked to collect lightsabers.



Mindfire said:


> It also creates this continuity rift between the movies and the supporting material. In the games, cartoons, and some of the books the feats the Jedi and Sith accomplish are so great it feels like the movies and the supporting material are living in two different universes. Have you seen the list of force powers that appear in the expanded universe? And of all of them, only 5 or so are seen in the films.



You seem to be under the impression that the movies have a responsibility to stay consistent with the Expanded Universe. In reality, it's the other way around, and one of the reasons a lot of EU stuff annoys me is that a lot of EU writers don't seem able to grasp something that simple.

If you write a Star Wars book, it's _your job_ to make sure it's consistent with the movie continuity. If it isn't, then _you _are the one who messed up. You don't get to write Luke Skywalker juggling black holes and then expect the movies to owe up to that.



Zero Angel said:


> So although their characters need to be very interesting on their own with or without superpowers, I think superpowers are extremely cool and interesting and should be included in addition to having a good storyline with deep characters and the superpowers should themselves be interesting and exciting.
> 
> There's a reason I enjoy fantasy and science fiction so much...and it's not because of low-powered characters.



Meh. I think it's a stylistic choice. I enjoy power fantasies as much as any other nerd, but you have to pick a scale you want to operate on and stick with it. 

For example, if I go see a Spiderman movie I don't expect Spiderman to catch bullets with his eyes or punch the villain into space. That's what Superman does.

Likewise, when I go see a Batman movie, I don't expect Batman to be as physically powerful as Spiderman, because that's not what Batman is about. 

What I mean is, you want to give your hero certain limits. Where you set those limits depend on what kind of story you are trying to tell.


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## Mindfire

Anders Ã„mting said:


> I don't think the Jedi and Sith were ever meant to be godlike - there is nothing in the original trilogy supporting that. I think they were always meant to be just an order of spiritual warriors: Exceptional in body and spirit, but tragically mortal in the end.



Well they don't have to be _godlike_. But there's this overarching sense that Jedi are supposed to be _special_. People all over the galaxy fear them. When they walk into a room, people take notice. As it is, that reputation seems largely... unearned. What exactly makes them so indispensable if not their powers? What makes them so intimidating? I can't seem to find an answer.


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## Mindfire

In retrospect, you don't really even have to give them more power to correct this issue. Simply making them better martial artists would suffice. I suspect that your average Shaolin monk would eat Obi-Wan for breakfast if you gave him a lightsaber.


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## Benjamin Clayborne

Mindfire said:


> In retrospect, you don't really even have to give them more power to correct this issue. Simply making them better martial artists would suffice. I suspect that your average Shaolin monk would eat Obi-Wan for breakfast if you gave him a lightsaber.



No, because shaolin monks can't predict the future. The reason Jedi are deadly duelists is that they can see a short distance into the future and predict their opponent's moves; it's the same reason they can deflect blaster bolts. They know in advance exactly where the bolt is going to be, or the opponent's blade.

A Jedi would dismember a shaolin monk within seconds. Doesn't matter how highly trained the monk is; he can't see the future. It's not like the Jedi has some kind of lightning-fast reflexes; it's actual precognition.

There's also the fact that a non-Force user trying to duel a Force-user would end up with the Force-user simply holding his opponent in place with telekinesis and then killing him at will. Jedi don't do this to each other because they're both Force-users and can basically stop each other from doing it (although if one gets distracted, or is significantly less powerful, e.g. Anakin and Obi-wan vs. Dooku in Ep3, the more powerful one can break through and grab the other one telekinetically, as when Dooku flings Obi-wan across the room).


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## Zero Angel

I thought you had to have the force just to activate lightsabers? 

I also think that Spider-Man and Batman classify as high-powered characters, not as high-powered as Superman, but high-powered nonetheless. My point was just that you don't go to watch movies about someone off the street that has nothing special about them. Although this seems to be a trend in modern literature...


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## Mindfire

Zero Angel said:


> I thought you had to have the force just to activate lightsabers?
> 
> I also think that Spider-Man and Batman classify as high-powered characters, not as high-powered as Superman, but high-powered nonetheless. My point was just that you don't go to watch movies about someone off the street that has nothing special about them. Although this seems to be a trend in modern literature...



Well that depends on your definition of "power", doesn't it?


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## Mindfire

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> No, because shaolin monks can't predict the future. The reason Jedi are deadly duelists is that they can see a short distance into the future and predict their opponent's moves; it's the same reason they can deflect blaster bolts. They know in advance exactly where the bolt is going to be, or the opponent's blade.
> 
> A Jedi would dismember a shaolin monk within seconds. Doesn't matter how highly trained the monk is; he can't see the future. It's not like the Jedi has some kind of lightning-fast reflexes; it's actual precognition.
> 
> There's also the fact that a non-Force user trying to duel a Force-user would end up with the Force-user simply holding his opponent in place with telekinesis and then killing him at will. Jedi don't do this to each other because they're both Force-users and can basically stop each other from doing it (although if one gets distracted, or is significantly less powerful, e.g. Anakin and Obi-wan vs. Dooku in Ep3, the more powerful one can break through and grab the other one telekinetically, as when Dooku flings Obi-wan across the room).



Then how do bounty hunters get reputations as "Jedi-killers" exactly?


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## Benjamin Clayborne

Zero Angel said:


> I thought you had to have the force just to activate lightsabers?



Nope. Han uses Luke's in ESB to cut open the tauntaun. (It's been thoroughly established that Han is not Force-sensitive.)


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## Benjamin Clayborne

Mindfire said:


> Then how do bounty hunters get reputations as "Jedi-killers" exactly?



Bad writing, probably. 

But I was talking about a single one-on-one duel, since that's what you proposed ("*I suspect that your average Shaolin monk would eat Obi-Wan for breakfast if you gave him a lightsaber.")*. A bounty hunter could still muster enough firepower to overwhelm a Jedi, with enough planning. A lightsaber can stop blaster bolts, even from heavy (portable) weapons, but ship-mounted weapons would still bleed around the lightsaber and kill the Jedi. Or drop bombs on the Jedi from the air. Or the bounty hunter could set up explosives in a trap and lure the Jedi into it. Or destroy a spaceship the Jedi is on. Or just get enough guys together shooting the Jedi at the same time to overwhelm them (Order 66 demonstrates this when several of the Jedi are simply overwhelmed by being shot at by a dozen clones at once).


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## Jess A

Debate aside, I've never seen the cartoon before - thanks for posting. Some Youtube entertainment.


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## Legendary Sidekick

Reaver said:


> It wouldn't surprise me in the least. Lucas took a giant shit on the Star Wars franchise by allowing  Episodes I, II & III to see the light of day just so he could make a little money, so why wouldn't the Disney juggernaut do something as perverse?


Reaver, I just gave you 17 reputation points for this comment.

As for VII, until I find out the real subtitle, I'm calling it:

_Episode VII: A Renewed Hope_


I'll out myself as a skeptic later. The Star Wars geek in me that I'd given up for dead needs time to process this, as this thread is the first I've heard of them finally making sequels, which is a hope I'd long forgotten since I read a novel about Han's and Leia's kids (which I've long forgotten the name of. I mean the novel, but I also forgot their kids' names).


Oh... and speaking of Star Wars, Disney and Number 7:







by DeviantArtist "Aniforce"​
I mean, "and speaking of Vader being resurrected..."

Yeah, that's what I should've said.​


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## Reaver

Legendary Sidekick said:


> Reaver, I just gave you 17 reputation points for this comment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, "and speaking of Vader being resurrected..."
> 
> Yeah, that's what I should've said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is what we have to look forward to from Disney: a shining example of them taking a HUGE shit on the Star Wars universe every day, three times a day, with fireworks just before closing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Renewed hope? Yeah, right.  All Star Wars is to them is a cash cow. I weep for the future of Star Wars films.
Click to expand...


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## Mindfire

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with entertaining children. Lighten up. lol

Okay, I'm just trolling now. But really, it's only cheesy. It's not _horrible_. At least it's humorously self-aware (unlike a certain Holiday Special). It might be annoying, but it's not _Batman and Robin_.


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## Reaver

Now I know the REAL reason why the prequels sucked so bad. I stand corrected. I love you, George.


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## Mindfire

Wow. I thought the prequel hate was overblown before, but this is just hilarious. xD


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## Steerpike

Reaver said:


> Now I know the REAL reason why the prequels sucked so bad. I stand corrected. I love you, George.



Awesome.


/10char


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## Legendary Sidekick

Mindfire said:


> it's not _Batman and Robin_.


I still remember a scene in which Arnold is on the phone, and actually looks bored. Maybe that was the day he found out his maid's white blonde kid was his? I also got a kick out of Dr. Freeze and Poison Ivy sharing a prison cell, and Dr. Freeze is talking tough to his cell mate who, according to the movie, just needs to kiss him in his sleep to kill him.

So, yeah, I'll admit there are worse movies. But Star Wars IV-VI are very memorable classics, and I-III just went from "wow, finally" to "I hate this; damn you to hell, Lucas" to... well, I was gonna say obscurity, but it's really more like something people make fun of every now and then while other people defend it half-heartedly. I'm sure many of the people who talk about I-III have only seen those movies once or twice, and most don't own the movies.

No matter how bad or "not that bad" it is, the prequel trilogy isn't even close to its predecessor before it was bastardized with the decade(s)-later editing.


Reaver's telling what will likely turn out to be the truth that we'd all prefer to deny. I'll probably see VII anyway, but on Red Box... depending on what I hear from my brother, who will definitely see it anyway.


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## Anders Ã„mting

Mindfire said:


> Well they don't have to be _godlike_. But there's this overarching sense that Jedi are supposed to be _special_. People all over the galaxy fear them. When they walk into a room, people take notice. As it is, that reputation seems largely... unearned. What exactly makes them so indispensable if not their powers? What makes them so intimidating? I can't seem to find an answer.



They _are _very dangerous, at least the better ones. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan (and later Obi-Wan and Anakin) plow through entire battalions of battle droids. It took whole squads of Clone Troopers to kill individual jedi and even then only by taking them by surprise. When Yoda and Obi-Wan knew what they were dealing with, the clones proved exactly as useful as the droids. Or if you want to talk OT, Luke massacred all of Yabba's thugs more or less by himself.

In the real world, that would roughly be equivalent of one guy with a sword taking down a whole SWAT team alone, with next to no injuries to show for it. That's blatant superhero type stuff.

But that aside, they were never even supposed to be fearsome warriors. Quite the contrary, they are a religious order created to safeguard peace and justice, and the whole reason they were respected was because they relied on the Force to give them wisdom and guidance.

That's the whole tragedy of the Clone Wars right there: it was basically the Jedi failing to do their job, and having to take responsibility for that.



Zero Angel said:


> I thought you had to have the force just to activate lightsabers?



Not at all; that's exactly the kind of mystical mumbo jumbo EU gets way too much of. Lightsabers are just machines that produce intense energy beams. They're not magical.



Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Nope. Han uses Luke's in ESB to cut open the tauntaun. (It's been thoroughly established that Han is not Force-sensitive.)



Exactly. I frankly don't get where that idea even came from.



Mindfire said:


> There is nothing fundamentally wrong with entertaining children. Lighten up. lol



I've been saying that for over a decade now.


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## Mindfire

Anders Ã„mting said:


> They _are _very dangerous, at least the better ones. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan (and later Obi-Wan and Anakin) plow through entire battalions of battle droids.



But battle droids suck. They're a bigger military joke than the original stormtroopers. The one gripe I'll forever have with the prequels is that the Battle Droids are never threatening. They don't look like robotic soldiers. They look like cheap plastic toys a 5 year old could knock over. The only way they can be remotely dangerous is in gigantic swarms. The clone troopers are better, but they really only shine in the Clone Wars (2D) series. Those ARC Troopers could give the Spartan-IIIs from Halo a run for their money. 

Part of the problem is that many of the Jedi vs thugs/droids/troopers fights don't make the Jedi look awesome, they just make the minions they're fighting look stupid and ineffective. The stormtroopers are now infamous for their marksmanship, or lack thereof.


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## Phietadix

Legendary Sidekick said:


> So, yeah, I'll admit there are worse movies. But Star Wars IV-VI are very memorable classics, and I-III just went from "wow, finally" to "I hate this; damn you to hell, Lucas" to... well, I was gonna say obscurity, but it's really more like something people make fun of every now and then while other people defend it half-heartedly. I'm sure many of the people who talk about I-III have only seen those movies once or twice, and most don't own the movies.\



I own all six movies, have probably seen each a few dozen times and still like 1-3 and Episode 2 is my favorite of the 6

And mindfire the battle droids might look weak but to unarmed civialns (like those on Naboo) those will be very dangerous, they are also very easy to mass-produce


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## Mindfire

Phietadix said:


> I own all six movies, have probably seen each a few dozen times and still like 1-3 and Episode 2 is my favorite of the 6
> 
> And mindfire the battle droids might look weak but to unarmed civialns (like those on Naboo) those will be very dangerous, they are also very easy to mass-produce



I'll have to part ways with you there, especially with regard to Episode 2. It's my least favorite of the films.


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## wordwalker

Legendary Sidekick said:


> But Star Wars IV-VI are very memorable classics, and I-III just went from "wow, finally" to "I hate this; damn you to hell, Lucas" to... well, I was gonna say obscurity, but it's really more like something people make fun of every now and then while other people defend it half-heartedly.



To me, Star Wars is IV-VI, and everything after that is *fanfiction*. Sometimes good fanfic (the Zahn trilogy, Genndy Tartovsky slumming to make a good Clone Wars series), but it's always been just an attempt to recapture something that came and went.

(And, activating lightsabers doesn't need the Force, using a lightsaber well enough to block blaster fire needs the Force-- although _ducking_ twenty bolts, of course...)


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## Reaver

The Star Wars prequels were made almost exclusively for a generation raised on video games with more than 64-Bit graphics and CGI. No matter how much people in their 20's want to argue, there's absolutely nothing paradigm-shifting about those movies. Episodes IV through VI, however, continued to push the envelope on how films were written, filmed and produced. It spawned an entire generation of filmmakers, computer programmers, artists and actors who wanted to make movies like those.

Now that Disney owns the rights to everything Star Wars, it's very hard to be optimistic that they'll respect the legacy that Episodes IV,V and VI created in our world culture.  If there ever is an Episode VII, I'll probably go see it with the same hope that I had when I went to go see Episode I.

And as I sit there in that hushed, darkened theater, just as that iconic opening scene begins, I'll be praying fervently that they don't royally f*ck things up this time.


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## Mindfire

On how they were written? Are we talking about the same Original Star Wars films? You know, cheesy one liners, blatant exposition, stilted dialogue? If I recall correctly, most of their revolutionary innovations were in the field of special effects (something ILM is still renowned for).


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## Zero Angel

Anders Ã„mting said:


> Not at all; that's exactly the kind of mystical mumbo jumbo EU gets way too much of. Lightsabers are just machines that produce intense energy beams. They're not magical.



That misunderstanding came from playing Star Wars RPG a couple of times years ago and thinking that force was needed to activate them in that. 

Anyway, the original Star Wars movies are FUN, but not well-written. I enjoyed the prequel movies, but the relationships were really, really badly written and the rest was written with at least as much competence as the old ones. I enjoyed them for what they were and hope to continue enjoying the follow-ups. 

I heard rumor that one of the good things that might come from the acquisition is the re-release of the original originals without the doctoring Lucas did for the anniversary edition a while back (Han Solo can go back to shooting first finally!). Although, I enjoyed the doctoring too with the exception of making him shoot first. Does making him shoot first count as Lucas changing the films to fan fiction?


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## Phietadix

I am asuming you are talking about when he killed gredo?


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## Zero Angel

Phietadix said:


> I am asuming you are talking about when he killed gredo?



Yes.

/10char


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## Zireael

Stormtroopers were a joke. Resurrecting Darth Vader would make no sense. I hope R2D2 and C3PO stay in the sequels.

I think it's a pity the new films are not going to use the EU at all. They'll probably create a broken continuity.

It's true that Ep I-III were created for the generation raised with the flashy visual effects, but they parallel the IV-VI quite nicely.


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## SeverinR

sorry, guys have to ask...
Is that old horse still kickin?
Last Star wars I saw was with kid Darth racing. Wait, I did see part of Darth Vaders girl friend bites it (When Luke and Leigha were born) and he is dumped somewhere to die. Don't even know the name.
The original three were great, lost interest after that.


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