# Ugg, This sucks. I'm stuck, lost, and want to start over. But i desperatly don't.



## ascanius (Oct 9, 2011)

I'm at 91k words approximately 130+ pages and....  The more I write the more i get ideas that totally clash with what i have already written, and I really like them better than what my original plan was, to the point I have absolutely no idea where anything is going anymore.  I'm having to scroll through pages and pages of text to find characters I mentioned in the beginning, it's hopeless.  Loosing my digital map that I spent hours making, @*#$&#! hard drive, BACK UP!  I wont make that mistake again, though i did back up my story. I've taken to just making up locations to edit later because i don't want to look through the four 3 feet by 2 feet sheets of paper just to find a single location and the distance then convert that to days by horse or whatever.  I've given up on trying to keep track of the time in the story, days moths etc.  Keeping tack languages and different speech patterns of the multitude of different races and people along with their customs and intricacies is a nightmare.   I reached one climactic point now my main character is lacking in all uniqueness that I had at the beginning, total reversal from what he was.  Basically now everything is lame, lame, and lamer.  In desperation i have jumped from my four characters down to two, and some how back to four again.  I have thought about printing the entire story to so i can stomp on it then rip it into very small pieces then dissolve it in Sulfuric acid in the chem lab.  Did i mention i am nowhere near being finished.
Ok. I think I have whittled down my main problems.  First an outline I have one but discarded it when i spent hours trying to get something to step forth from the insubstantial abyss of creativity thus abandoned it.  Second background, setting, world building..Detail, detail, and more detail ect.  Third organization, i can organize my lab note book but this...argg.  Did i mention I am a Boi major who has never taken a single writing coarse aside from the required writing coarse.  I'm having to research creative writing and study the topics like archetypical characters, plot and everything else.
Now that that is over.  I have already looked at the outline thread but i am wondering if i should stop, do the outline and finish world building.  I already have about thirty pages of world building notes, ever changing as I add new stuff.  Or should I continue and just add notes to change things like I am already doing.  And the last problem.  How the heck do you organize it all.  I feel like i am scrolling through text to find small little details almost every page, it's getting really annoying.  I have thought about compiling everything into one gargantuan document and use Numerals or bullets.  Please tell me there is an easier way to do this.  
Drawing the map and naming the places and characters was fun now everything sucks.  I'm realizing that I may have bitten off much more than I can chew and sadly I was writing for my own enjoyment.
Any and all help extremely welcome.  Anyone have books on writing that they might suggest, or topics I should research.  And thank you everyone who replied to my last post, i managed to work it out quite well then came into the lovely mess I am in now.
PS  sorry about the ranting, digression, and overall wall text.  I think I'm done.


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## Philip Overby (Oct 9, 2011)

Well, I can understand your frustration.  Take it from someone who has aborted dozens of 50K-70K plus manuscripts due to loss of direction or interest.  Don't abandon it.  Finish it even if it sucks.  You'll at least have a crappy first draft.  Then you can filter through the mess and find the quality stuff.  

There are tons of writing books, blogs, etc. that can also help you out.  Even if your manuscript is an unmitigated nightmare, the fact that you produced 91K means you have one thing already going for you:  you can stick with something long enough to get that far.  If you were 10K in and thought it sucked, then you could give up easier.  

My advice is to push through.  Then when you're finished you can edit, edit, edit.


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## Kelise (Oct 9, 2011)

I figure out a lot of things while I'm writing, instead of planning. I often don't bother with planning because I change it all anyway!

My WIP has a dozen version where I try different characters and directions. I start with an idea, get inspiration and change it a bit, build and rewrite and come up with different endings...

I think we have to expect a dozen or so drafts, at least, especially with our first few FULL MSs. 

As Phil says, we just have to keep going.


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## JCFarnham (Oct 9, 2011)

It also sounds like you could do with some writers software, the kind which helps organise [there's a whole thread on this somewhere I suggest you check it out] or you ould make your own wiki for all these little bits of information [from now on I mean, since... 91k... yeah  ]

Most of all If you don't think you can finish this as it is, I'm going to go against everyone else and say, why not edit what you have, consildate it and make sure you have all your errant worldbuilding tracked down and stored somewhere, then I'm almost certain you'll find the inspiration to finish it. 

And if you think you'll be able to definitely come back to it [rather than forget about it] then I myself would take a break for a bit. ^_^

Just.. don't sweat it if it's lame and awful now. It's pretty much supposed to be in "first draft" form. You can make it way better. You have more than enough material to do that and best of all you've explored your characters, taken them down the wrong route, and know now where you really want them.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Oct 9, 2011)

On the managing-all-this-info front:

My WIP has (so far) ~124 named characters, ~58 named cities/counties/dukedoms/nations, 31 completed (first-draft) chapters. I manage all this in a single notes file, which also has a large world-building section describing the civilization I've created.

I don't create all the characters/locations in advance. They come up as I'm writing, but whenever they do, I tab over to the notes file and put them in the list. (The character list is a hierarchical bullet list, grouped by fealty/locations.) Also sometimes I'll find myself having to come up with background, e.g. just now I had to go and come up with the structure of the Royal Army, in order to better explain who would be accompanying a certain character on a journey. But that all goes into a notes file.

There's also a section that describes the political structure of the nation; what are all the dukedoms, what counties do they contain, who are the dukes/counts of each dukedom/county? This duplicates some info from the character list (which has things like physical descriptions/age/relevance to the story), but having a political reference is handy. Manually making lists of things can really help keep all those details straight. (OpenOffice, which I use, lets me create a Master document which "links" all the chapter documents. This lets me search the entire novel for a term easily.)

Here's a partial list of the header sections in the "world building" part of my notes file that talks about the nation the story takes place in:

CALENDAR
FOREIGN AFFAIRS
GUARDS
GEOGRAPHY
HISTORY
LAW ENFORCEMENT
MARRIAGE CUSTOMS
MILITARY
MUSIC/ENTERTAINMENT
NAMING
POLITICAL STRUCTURE
RELIGION
SOCIETY
TECHNOLOGY/INDUSTRY
TIMELINE
TITLES
WARDENS
WEAPONS

Each of those ranges anywhere from a few sentences to several pages. (If one file is too big, you can break it up, e.g. one file for world background, one file for character biographies/development, one file for story structure, etc.)

I also have a map that I'm manually drawing in the GIMP to give a general sense of what's where.

Really, the key is to assiduously update your notes whenever you create something new. Of all the time I've spent writing, a good 30-40% has been in the notes file, working out story issues, developing characters, building the world. This has really helped me avoid conflicts. Sometimes I'll invent something later on and I know I'll have to go back and fix it later; and even sometimes I forget that I came up with something, and I write something else that duplicates/overlaps/obviates/contradicts it. That's okay. On the next pass through, I'll catch most of those things and clean them up.


As far as backup goes, I put everything into a Subversion repository and mirror it to my desktop at work (both running Linux so this is easy). If you only really have one computer running (e.g.) Windows, the best backup practice for a novel, I think, is to zip up all your work once a week (set an alarm/reminder). Name the file with the backup date, and copy it to a USB key, or another device, or burn it to a CD if you have to.

Dunno if any of this helps, but so far I haven't had any trouble managing all this info, just by keeping it all hierarchical.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Oct 9, 2011)

I don't remember when it hit me, probably the last time I did nano and while I completed it...I'm pretty sure I can still smell it a few years later.  I know there is a certain amount of joy of exploring a world as we write it, but if you think about it, how many books we read are really random wanderings?  Successful stories have a plan, and you have the fun of coming up with those ideas when you put together the plot and scenes and all the part that need to be put together into a coherent whole.  

It might sound like it's constricting, but if you go into a scene with a goal, and you finish the scene achieving that goal, then the next one will follow far more easily than if you have to figure out what comes next.  You can still allow some room for spur of the moment ideas, but only ones that don't break the purpose of the scene, and don't blow away all the planning already done.  Then your story will move with a purpose, and by the time you finish, you should be somewhere close to where you intended to end up.


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## mythique890 (Oct 9, 2011)

The best advice I was ever given when I reached a similar point is to give your MS some time on a shelf.  When you go back, you may find that things aren't as bad as you thought they were.  Or, if they are, the ideas will be more mature and you may have come up with solutions to some of your problems.  In the mean time, to make sure you aren't getting rusty, why don't you start a new (_much_ smaller) project?  Write a short story or a flash fiction piece totally unrelated to your novel.  I didn't like the idea when someone recommended it to me, but it turned out to be the best thing I could have done.  I can't tell you how good it feels to actually finish something!  And as a bonus I have a story I can submit to magazines while I finish my novel.


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## HÃ«radÃ¯n (Oct 10, 2011)

Benjamin has the right of it. I do a similar thing, but I don't go as in-depth as he does. focusing on other stories is also a good idea, as mythique suggests. In my current project I'm in the hole about 15 thousand words at the moment. It is, however, made up of mostly smaller stories and poems at the moment that will have 4 long short stories or 4 short novellas (depending on how you define them) When I get tired of one, I just switch to another because they are all set at different periods in the same world it works out well enough to keep my eyes fresh.


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## Qfantasy (Oct 10, 2011)

Sometimes it's easier just to start writing something without a plan, especially if you have the words at your fingertips just bursting to get out. It sounds like this has happened to you and although you've made a great start to your novel, it is now time to stop, take a breath, and get things organised.

My advice is to write a plan for your main plot - the beginning, middle and end and everything in between. On this plan you will then add the sub plots and their beginning, middle and ends. This does not have to be a neatly typed affair, just get the foundations in place, even if it's on a scrap of paper. I also advise you to make a list of the characters you intend to have in your novel, prioritising the main characters from protagonist to antagonist etc. Write a brief description for each character, including their motives.

This will seem like a gragantuan task but believe me, once it's done it will make completing a rough draft of your novel much easier. Try to remember that rough means rough - it does not have to be perfect and actually, it won't be perfect no matter how hard you try, so don't. Get the rough draft completed and then you go back to the beginning and rewrite what you have again and again, honing and polishing every page, paragraph and sentence until you are happy with it.

Hope this helps and good luck. 

P.S. Something else I thought of, if it doesn't move the story forward, does it really need to be in there? Food for thought.


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## DameiThiessen (Oct 11, 2011)

Leave it for a while. Finish it first if you can - if not then don't worry about it. 

It sounds like you need to distance yourself and regroup. When you write for pleasure or as a hobby it's really easy to just keep writing and not have much happen. Your characters all blend together, you forget about what they story is supposed to be about, your main conflict is lost and there is no way for your story to come to a proper resolution.

When you're ready get a notebook (or a separate MW document) and list all the important information to remember as your story goes along. Names, each character's origins and motivations, a time line of events, and the main plot and subplots are all important things to focus on for starters. When you have those figured out and revised how you like it then you can continue on, but those things must be addressed if you want direction and consistency in your writing.

I hope this helps! I have had similar problems in the past.


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## CicadaGrrl (Oct 11, 2011)

ascanius--Congrats!!!!!!  What you have is a nearly finished first draft.  It's weird.  Everything keeps changing.  And you hate it with a fiery passion.  You are a writer!  Now go on being a writer and finish it.  That's what writers do.  We hate what we do as much of the time as anyone else does.  ONCE you have finished that draft, go back through the mess and figure out what you need to really make it into something you love.  Some people plan it all out ahead of time.  Some just write.  I've gone from just writing to planning like hell.  But after you finish your draft, then you can plan.  Here is a big thing that has helped me when I used to write drafts that sound very similar to your first.  If you can't remember it without referring back to your draft, it is too small to matter.  When you finish, and you should, write down everything in that novel that is important to your main characters (like who you decide they are in the end--look up "character building" or "character sheet" on line and choose one to plug your characters into)--like your world building (again, you can find these on line).  Make a map so you can tell how long it takes to get to one place to another if you want, but frankly I decide how long it takes a character to get from one place to another for plot and character growth and then make the map.  Or not bother with a map.  

I heavily suggest Inspiration software for concept maps, cluster maps, and outlines.  

But, you are saying, I can't remember that one character's name!  I can't remember what I called that town or that creature!  So?  Write down a new name every time a new element enters.  This time, write yourself a key of the words you use and how.  

For me, a great trick is to let the first draft sit on a shelf when you are done.  The real trick is that you LEAVE it there.  When you start your planning and drafting, don't look back on what you did and try to save any of it.  Leave it on the shelf and rebuild based on the vision and education the first draft taught you.  After you are done with many more increasingly streamlined drafts, have finished the book and sent it out to agents and publishers, then, maybe then, you are allowed to pull that dusty and once painful draft down from the closet shelf and read it for a good laugh.


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## mythique890 (Oct 11, 2011)

Hey ascanius, I meant to post this when I responded the first time, but I forgot.  Have you heard this quote?



> “Nobody tells this to people who are beginners, I wish someone told me. All of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But there is this gap. For the first couple years you make stuff, it’s just not that good. It’s trying to be good, it has potential, but it’s not. But your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer. And your taste is why your work disappoints you. A lot of people never get past this phase, they quit. Most people I know who do interesting, creative work went through years of this. We know our work doesn’t have this special thing that we want it to have. We all go through this. And if you are just starting out or you are still in this phase, you gotta know its normal and the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week you will finish one story. It is only by going through a volume of work that you will close that gap, and your work will be as good as your ambitions. And I took longer to figure out how to do this than anyone I’ve ever met. It’s gonna take awhile. It’s normal to take awhile. You’ve just gotta fight your way through.”
> *― Ira Glass*



There are a bunch of posters of it online if you google "Ira Glass quote poster."  I printed one out and pinned it to the wall next to my computer.  It helps me get through the bad days.


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## Thursday (Oct 12, 2011)

I've done this. I start something and then it takes on a life of it's own and soon I want to just start another book altogether. I think the main problem is that you're writing for enjoyment but you need to be more work-minded about it and then maybe it won't wander off as much.


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## The Blue Lotus (Oct 12, 2011)

Why don't you have a file with character names places etc for each of you MC's?

That seems to me your biggest issue, disorganization is killer. 



If you attack the process as if you were conducting a lab test that may help. 

You would not gram stain bacteria without all the proper equipment and notes would you?

Same goes for your novel.

My file looks like this there are two brief cases on the desk top. 

One named: Notes when I open it there are three files Book 1 book 2 book 3 



Open case - file folders labeled clearly. 



MC name EX,- Trinity-

Bio information:

Family tree

Interactions with Other MC's 

Religion

Race

Language

Location

Employment info.

Character quirks

overall tone of voice

Powers, abilities, weaponry etc

Subfolder MC name Moksha 

Main character interaction with - Xing - Trinity via dream occurrence(s) Chapter 6, x,y,z. 



I also have folders for every creature type royal family tree (if any) 

And one for the outline 

Outline name

Objective (what am I trying to do by telling this tale)

Main points

sub-points

research notes

there is a file for Ideas/new directions and what not

etc..



On top of this I have two book boxes filled with 80 paper notebooks that also have all this information to some extent in case something ever happens to my pc. 

4 back up copies of all work (Hard x2, soft x2) However, recently my sweet hubby has decided it would be far easier to clone our HD so I can have everything exactly as it was. 

I lost 300 pages of work once the Hard copy I had was not updated when I was done for the night the next AM the PC crashed and burned. took me six months to get everything back the way it was before I could start over. That was a bummer. =(





The second one named: Novel 

In here there are again three files. 

Book 1 open- folder in this folder is 1 file for each chapter, sometimes I rewrite the chapters for what ever reason. These are renamed Chapter 1 first re write Chapter 1 second re write, Chapter 1 Edited by (name) Chapter 1 peer review notes. 

Etc... 




Hope that helps


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## ShortHair (Oct 12, 2011)

Here's the thing. Writing is hard work. If you go into a complicated situation without any preparation, chances are you're going to get lost. Some people can write a book of fantasy fiction without outlines, character profiles, maps, all the stuff everyone's suggesting. Most people can't.

If you're not sure you'll remember something, write it down. Periodically you will have to organize and reorganize your stuff. Weed out stuff that no longer fits (you won't throw it away, none of us do).

It sounds like you started out in one story and ended up in another. You need to step back and see what belongs in which story. Then decide which one you want to write first.


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## ascanius (Oct 16, 2011)

Thank you for all the help guys I am taking your (English really lacks in not having a second person plural pronoun) advice and have stopped for the time being to get organized.  The open office master doc is very handy and really helps now that I understand how it works.  I am redoing my plot/outline and a few other things.  Thank you again everyone.  I think I needed to take a step back for a while and focus on something less demanding.


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## ascanius (Nov 15, 2011)

Hey everyone, thank you again for all the advice.  I have stepped back and followed almost all of the suggestions posted so thank you again it has really helped.  Now to my next problem.  This hasn't so much to do with what to write but more about my ability to write.  The problem is I tend to write chapters about each character unless I write the same character for a while I have to struggle through writing the other characters until I get back into the flow and personality of that character.  To clarify the problem is switching from character to character without having to write one or two pages of trash that is dull and only servers the purpose of moving the plot along.  It lacks all the fine points that I have worked hard to get organized leaving me feeling lost.  I have a feeling that I will be told it will be something I must power through and worry about when I revise.  Thank you in advance.


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## writeshiek33 (Nov 15, 2011)

i use writing software(pm if want name of it ) to organize my notes, i am dyslexic but have a very creative mind too i too want to jump from idea to idea


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## ShortHair (Nov 15, 2011)

ascanius said:


> The problem is I tend to write chapters about each character unless I write the same character for a while I have to struggle through writing the other characters until I get back into the flow and personality of that character.  To clarify the problem is switching from character to character without having to write one or two pages of trash that is dull and only servers the purpose of moving the plot along.



Why break off from one character and switch to another? If  that's how you work best, stay with the first character and write all the passages for him/her. Then go to the second character and write all his/her passages. Et cetera. Fill in the holes when you rewrite.


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## ascanius (Dec 6, 2011)

ShortHair said:


> Why break off from one character and switch to another? If  that's how you work best, stay with the first character and write all the passages for him/her. Then go to the second character and write all his/her passages. Et cetera. Fill in the holes when you rewrite.


The reason I do this is to keep myself organized when I write.  I tried to write multiple characters into single chapters moving from one to the other as the "inspiration" struck me.  I ended up getting disorganized and lost in the plot, and thus unsure where I was going.  In some instances it worked but in the end it grew to confusing as to where the plot was going.  That is mostly why I move from one to the other.  As to why I don't write each scene involving that single character, it is partly because while I know the over all character, setting and every other plot of the story the actual details still remain to be discovered.  I could write small things that I am certain of but doing each aspect of each characters plot helps paint/discover the overall picture I am trying to describe. 

Next
Sorry I keep returning to this thread but I don't feel it justifies creating a new thread each time I have a question about a my story.  I think this works better.
My next question involves items/clothing/weapons I have created.  Thus far I tend to capitalize everything I have created in the story partly for my own sake to keep track of everything I create, and partly so emphasize that it's usage for the reader for the sake purpose of remembrance.  Any thoughts on this?  Anyone have a better idea to help me keep track of such things?  What do you guys do?  Sorry if it is kinda pointless but I thought I would ask.


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## The Blue Lotus (Dec 6, 2011)

ascanius said:


> The reason I do this is to keep myself organized when I write.  I tried to write multiple characters into single chapters moving from one to the other as the "inspiration" struck me.  I ended up getting disorganized and lost in the plot, and thus unsure where I was going.  In some instances it worked but in the end it grew to confusing as to where the plot was going.  That is mostly why I move from one to the other.  As to why I don't write each scene involving that single character, it is partly because while I know the over all character, setting and every other plot of the story the actual details still remain to be discovered.  I could write small things that I am certain of but doing each aspect of each characters plot helps paint/discover the overall picture I am trying to describe.
> 
> Next
> Sorry I keep returning to this thread but I don't feel it justifies creating a new thread each time I have a question about a my story.  I think this works better.
> My next question involves items/clothing/weapons I have created.  Thus far I tend to capitalize everything I have created in the story partly for my own sake to keep track of everything I create, and partly so emphasize that it's usage for the reader for the sake purpose of remembrance.  Any thoughts on this?  Anyone have a better idea to help me keep track of such things?  What do you guys do?  Sorry if it is kinda pointless but I thought I would ask.



Spread sheet, or an excell sheet would prolly help you out.


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## Lord Darkstorm (Dec 6, 2011)

> I have created in the story partly for my own sake to keep track of everything I create, and partly so emphasize that it's usage for the reader for the sake purpose of remembrance. Any thoughts on this?



If they are places, fine.  If they are titles, fine.  If they are things, like axe, wagon, or something that would not normally be capitalized, then don't.  To make anything easier for the reader to read, follow normal grammar rules for capitalization.  It Is Like This.  Capitalization used incorrectly is obnoxious and annoying to those of us who read all the time.  Our eyes and brain are trained to recognize the use of capitalization and when something is capitalized for the wrong reasons, it forces us to place importance on something that shouldn't have it.


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## ascanius (Dec 9, 2011)

Another quick question.  Are the things I want each character to accomplish the same as the character goals.  And second do character goals need to something the character is aware of?  For some of my characters I don't necessarily want them to conquer some army or find a magical scroll but more importantly I want them to understand something about their nature and understand that they need to make changes.  Can goals be something that characters have no idea about, making choices that they do not realize will impact them later on towards the realization of what they should do/change.


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## ThinkerX (Dec 9, 2011)

> Another quick question. Are the things I want each character to accomplish the same as the character goals.



They can be, but this is not required.  What a character wants, is all too often, not what that character needs.  An alcoholic, for example, would really want that next bottle of rotgut - but what he needs is AA.



> And second do character goals need to something the character is aware of? For some of my characters I don't necessarily want them to conquer some army or find a magical scroll but more importantly I want them to understand something about their nature and understand that they need to make changes.



This is the sort of thing that makes for great story telling - not just slaying the dragon or the dark lord, but understanding something important about themselves.  It adds true depth to their characters.



> Can goals be something that characters have no idea about, making choices that they do not realize will impact them later on towards the realization of what they should do/change.



Most definitely.  In fact, this is how it should be.

The thing about epic quests isn't so much about the goal of the quest, but rather the changes that quest bestows on those who undertake it.  The journey is more important than the destination.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Dec 9, 2011)

ThinkerX said:


> They can be, but this is not required.  What a character wants, is all too often, not what that character needs.  An alcoholic, for example, would really want that next bottle of rotgut - but what he needs is AA.



And perhaps what he gets is neither -- stuck in a situation where there is no alcohol, and no support group to help him through withdrawal. And maybe he ends up sober anyway, but having gone through it in a much more painful, traumatic way than if he'd had AA around.


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## JamesTFHS (Dec 14, 2011)

Number one book just to help with writing is Teach Yourself Writing a Novel by Nigel Watts. it is like my bible i have read it hundreds of times. I too have had issues with my book to where i have restarted over 8 times in 6 years. Really dont let it stress you too much. If you really feel like you need to change the story because you have a better vision really consider it. Look over what you have and compare it to what you are now coming up with. if you feel like it needs a change do it. You might find you are happier that way. Take a break from writing and then just start reading what you have. Make sure the story is absolutly what you want. If it turns out your issues are names and places just change that. If it is just the plot and the world is what you want than rewrite. with your new ideas look at who they affect, what they affect and how much would change or be unbalanced if you just threw them in. You gotta makes sure your story is as air tight as possible. if you restart dont just delete everything keep it as notes to what you originally wanted out of your story. I hope this helps out.


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## ascanius (Dec 14, 2011)

Everything helps.  So far I have been using internet sources on writing plot development, characters, character types, types of plot, the purpose of each type of plot and how they all relate to one another.  But maybe having resource materiel on hand for questions would be better, not to mention more in depth, I may have to look into that book.  
Now that my chem final is done, WHOOO!, Still have one more though, but after a get extremely smashed I will need to address my most current issue.  I have come to realize while going over my plot that my characters are all over the place plot wise and location wise.  I have organized my story into five parts, not books,  and so far they have no interaction with each other, ecept two and sorta four.  My main issue with this is..While character plot is coming easily for me I have neglected to think about the overall plot, the one that affects everything in the world.  Is there any good way to write this?  What I mean is this.  Should I write one overarching plot with how each character contributes to each aspect of the plot to gain success.  Like event 1.  so and so does this, getting closer to the goal, while so and so does that hindering the goal.  Or should I write a plot for each character and how it relates to the overarching plot, so basically every character has their own overarching plot.  What do you guys do?  So far I have three plots for each character, the character vs external stimuli, internal conflict, and impact/love interest.  The plot involving the character and external stimuli is more of a short term reactionary plot that doesn't really deal with any overarching aspect.


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## Wormtongue (Dec 14, 2011)

ascanius said:


> Another quick question.  Are the things I want each character to accomplish the same as the character goals.  And second do character goals need to something the character is aware of?  For some of my characters I don't necessarily want them to conquer some army or find a magical scroll but more importantly I want them to understand something about their nature and understand that they need to make changes.  Can goals be something that characters have no idea about, making choices that they do not realize will impact them later on towards the realization of what they should do/change.



In my case, in the end, what my protagonist NEEDS to do is exactly the last thing he WANTS to do.  And _hopefully_ the last thing the reader EXPECTS him to do.


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