# Magic that's FUN to read?



## Zephon (May 24, 2012)

Does anyone else think that alot of the magical scenes in fantasy writing are somewhat boring? I don't know exactly what it is, but reading about magic, or battles fought with magic, often seem dull to me. I think a big part of this is the use of magic as Dues ex Machina, which many authors seem to _resort_ to. Another aspect may be that it's incredibly difficult to understand magic within the world of the story. I think sometimes the authors themselves don't understand the magic in their own stories, so it comes off not nesscarily as mysterious, but rather confusing or vague. 

Does anyone share similar, or totally opposite, obvservations? Also does anyone have some reading suggestions for works that have a truly exciting magical elements/ scenes?


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## ThinkerX (May 25, 2012)

In 'Desolation Road', one of the main characters carves a place for himself out of a tall spire.  The chamber at the top of the spire offers a truly breathtaking view - but this character makes the deliberate decision to visit that chamber and take in that view only on rare occasions - because to do so as a matter of daily course would lessen the impact and wonder of that view, rendering it trivial.

George Martin, in the prep work for 'Game of Thrones', spent a *lot* of time considering two possible scenario's, going back and forth repeatedly: a world with no true magic, and a world with a little magic.  He NEVER considered a world with a *lot* of magic.  In the end he went with a world that had a little magic, because when magic did appear, it was something truly wondrous. 

Have a clue now?


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## T.Allen.Smith (May 25, 2012)

I tend to agree with Thinker on this. Keeping the the magic magical is usually my preference.

However, there are some cases where defined magic systems are fun. Many people prefer them.

The question is, do you want your magic system to have a role in your story that is almost on the level of a main character?

In Rothfuss's books, his system is very logical & drawn out with a little mystery floating about. That was fun for me as a reader but not nearly as fun as those rare moments when magic is unleashed in Martin's Westeros.

"Fun" is a matter of taste. Outside of that, good writing trumps all.


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## The Din (May 25, 2012)

It should be fun. Magic is the special effects of literary fantasy. I personally am sick of reading long drawn out magic systems that require you to learn fifty new terms and take a chemistry course. An author shouldn't take time out of telling the story to force his/her convoluted concoction upon the reader, there's enough metaphorical chicken choking in the genre as it is.

If you can slug it out, Wheel of Time has quite a few cool magic scenes.


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## Zephon (May 25, 2012)

ThinkerX said:


> In 'Desolation Road', one of the main characters carves a place for himself out of a tall spire.  The chamber at the top of the spire offers a truly breathtaking view - but this character makes the deliberate decision to visit that chamber and take in that view only on rare occasions - because to do so as a matter of daily course would lessen the impact and wonder of that view, rendering it trivial.
> 
> George Martin, in the prep work for 'Game of Thrones', spent a *lot* of time considering two possible scenario's, going back and forth repeatedly: a world with no true magic, and a world with a little magic.  He NEVER considered a world with a *lot* of magic.  In the end he went with a world that had a little magic, because when magic did appear, it was something truly wondrous.
> 
> Have a clue now?



Good post. You sort of tore apart Alot of great(or at least best selling) fantasy authors, but that's exactly what I think modern fantasy authors should do. 

I think Alot of authors are so eager to write about magic that many don't consider if they _should_. I also think Din had a point in saying the magic should accentuate the story, not make it. 

My first exposure to fantasy actually came through playing mmorpg's(online computer games). You could see your wizard/mage summon a fire ball, or magical bolt of some type, and then fling it at an oncoming enemy. It was awesome. However, I don't think the situation translates well in written word. It was a visual experience playing a computer game, but the same appeal and excitement- I think- is hard to muster with words.


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## ThinkerX (May 25, 2012)

Video games tend to treat wizards as artillery pieces.

A well written story will treat them as people.  

Take Gandalf, for example, from the 'Lord of the Rings' - he worked little in the way of flashy magic, but was quite an engrossing character.

Or take some of Glen Cooks wizards from the Dark Empire series. He had a couple of them capable of leveling cities, but he saddled them with wives and mired them in domestic affairs.  (Of course, he had quite a few other wizards that were major psychopaths, too).


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## The Dark One (May 25, 2012)

Have to say, my advice would be concentrate on the story and let the magic grow organically from there. If you start with the magic, you might find yourself either making up something that doesn't quite make sense...or even worse, force the plot to fit the magic in a way that doesn't quite gel.

In my book, the story always comes first.

This probably isn't a terribly helpful post...


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## Chilari (May 25, 2012)

In my view, magic is fine for computer games, when you can heal yourself or set an enemy on fire with a click of your mouse, but the same kind of magic wouldn't work in a story. It barely works in the computer game worlds. For example, while playing Skyrim yesterday I cam across a Stormcloak camp where 3 NPCs were injured. My heal other spell (or whatever it's called) did nothing to them, because they're not there to be healed, they're there to be gritty representations of the war between the Stormcloaks and the Empire. So then I stole their healing potions. Point is, magic isn't even consistent in the game world. It is there solely to serve the player. It is a weapon or it is armour, but it is not practical in the sense that it makes life easier for anyone at all in a day to day way.

Generally, I avoid magic. If I use it in a story I work through it very carefully in the planning stages, make sure it's not something that the main character can just draw upon when they feel like it, and generally have it as a background force or something that cannot be actively used by humans. For example, in one story I was working on once, I had magic weakened by iron. Since the story was set in an iron age society, most people couldn't use magic becuase they'd been in contact with iron all their lives - iron tools and weapons, iron nails in their houses, iron shoes on their horses, iron door hinges, cooking knives, etc. But there were a few small groups that avoided contact with iron deliberately so they could use magic. Even for them, magic was quite limited. I'd decided that all magic would be of the binding type - binding themselves to ghosts to gain the power of the long-dead, or binding their enemies to some sort of curse, with that spell's power based on how much that was part of the victim was part of the spell (like hair, toenail clippings, treasured items etc). No fireballs or healing spells.

In another story, magic was merely a background force, what enabled certain individuals to become immortal if the conditions were right. Magic was dependant on human imagination. Thus if enough people believed or imagined that there was a human-shaped being walking around which represented death, the magic would latch onto someone who fulfilled certain criteria relating to that and when they died, make them immortal.

But really, I find magic works best when left alone. Look at how Terry Pratchett did it - there's magic, sure, but mostly the Wizards leave well enough alone and when magic does come into the equation, it's in the form of giant city-destroying things which must be overcome, not things that can really help people, or it's witch magic which most of the time isn't magic at all.


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## JCFarnham (May 25, 2012)

The kind of magic I enjoy and write (when called for) is the kind that has ONE simple idea at its core. Like my own in Faebound: 

- If you aren't a magical being, then touching such energies will probably fry you on the spot. 

This gives rise to more than enough complications, conflict and other bits and pieces that I don't neeeeeeed books and books worth of complicated rules. 

A lot of the time I think people feel they have to have go into ridiculous amounts of detail for it to be a working magic system. Having a defined system doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as _having loads of rules_. That one little stipulation about my system has loads of side effects and "ripples" throughout the setting. Why would I need more? 

I do define more and more as I go on, but these aren't "core principles" of the system, these are the "ripples". Who uses this unknowable energy/magic? Who CAN? What if they can't? Is there a workable loop hole? Yes. Enchanted items? Yes. How do non-magical beings get their hands on such artefacts? Well, there in lays the conflict, plot and story 

You only need one core principle/rule/idea. Work through that and you'll find plenty of stuff to flesh it out.


EDIT: And by GOSH make sure it works as an element of the setting and not outside it, or as an "add on". To me magic works best if its inherent. The world works the way it does because of the magic, etc. This isn't to say that it can't be unknown, unknowable, weird, or surreal.

Just... make sure you think about the consequences of having magic. All of them.


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## Mindfire (May 25, 2012)

Hey guys. I'm going against the grain on this one. While "subtle" or "sparse" magic is one way to go... I typically find it boring*. It's one of the main reasons I'm not reading A Song of Ice and Fire as a matter of fact. I also resent this idea that using more overt magic is not the "proper way" for a modern fantasy writer to do things. Flashy magic can work outside a visual medium and personally I find it to be more interesting. 

Avatar: The Last Airbender is a wonderful show. Bending is roughly equivalent to magic, and it's everywhere! Now you might think that this kind of magic would be difficult to transfer to the written word, but you'd be wrong. And if you read Jim Butcher's Codex Alera series, you'd find out just how wrong. Furycrafting in Alera has many similarities to Avatar's bending. And the people use it to do incredible things, from subtle things like healing, empathy, and emotional manipulation to more flashy and exciting things like creating explosions, encasing themselves in metal skin, and setting off entire volcanoes! Codex Alera currently occupies my "favorite fantasy series" slot, even above great classics like Lord of the Rings and Narnia, because it's the first series I've come across that's done _exactly_, to a T, what I want in my fantasy. Engrossing plot? Check. Interesting characters? Check. Well-developed cultures? Check. Clever twists and turns? Check. Powerful, pervasive, and fun-to-read magic systems? Triple check.

GRR Martin has had great success with his way of doing things. But that doesn't mean that "modern" fantasy writers ought only do things his way from now on. And if they do, I'll be disappointed.


Now, on the other hand, writing magic as if it were a precise science with a D&D style rulebook, a mana pool, and "hit points" is _also _a *most grave error *and anything that smacks of this should be avoided at all costs.




*Although I do like the Redwall books and Ranger's Apprentice.


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## Devor (May 25, 2012)

One of the big temptations with a high-magic world that a lot of authors succumb to is power escalations.  They have to top the last showy magic scene with one that's even bigger, stretching the limits of their magical system until it vanishes completely.  I think that if you can fight this urge, and give your magic a clear role in your story, then I don't think it matters how much magic you use.  Magic is a weapon, or a tool, to help your story and highlight your climax; a magical display is not itself the climax.

However, I've said it before, and I'll say again here:  Sometimes, even in a high magic world, it's alright to put the magic aside for that big climax and play it "real" for a moment.  It'll help you fight those temptations and help the moment stand out.


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## BWFoster78 (May 25, 2012)

I'm with The Dark One and Mindfire on this one.

Magic has to work within the context of the story first and foremost.  Whether its sparse or plentiful doesn't matter nearly as much as if it's properly incorporated into the world.

That being said, I much prefer the magic in WoT and Mistborne to Martin's work.  I want to see super wizards who can do incredible things.  If I didn't want magic, why would I be reading fantasy?


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## Mindfire (May 25, 2012)

Devor said:


> One of the big temptations with a high-magic world that a lot of authors succumb to is power escalations.  They have to top the last showy magic scene with one that's even bigger, stretching the limits of their magical system until it vanishes completely.  I think that if you can fight this urge, and give your magic a clear role in your story, then I don't think it matters how much magic you use.  Magic is a weapon, or a tool, to help your story and highlight your climax; a magical display is not itself the climax.
> 
> However, I've said it before, and I'll say again here:  Sometimes, even in a high magic world, it's alright to put the magic aside for that big climax and play it "real" for a moment.  It'll help you fight those temptations and help the moment stand out.



Well, there is some room for power escalations. The Codex Alera books start out with pretty low-key stuff and then ramp it up to summoning volcanoes and giant mountain golems. But the series never spun out of control. Some of the best moments in the book were more about cleverness and quick thinking than displays of raw power. And some of the most staggeringly powerful people are constantly shown to be defeated by people who, while much weaker in magic, are able to outwit them. It's a theme of the books actually.


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## deilaitha (May 25, 2012)

Lord_Cthulhu said:


> Good post. You sort of tore apart Alot of great(or at least best selling) fantasy authors[...]I think Alot of authors[...]



Out of curiousity, is your capitalization of Alot a reference to this?
Hyperbole and a Half: The Alot is Better Than You at Everything


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## deilaitha (May 25, 2012)

I was thinking of Gandalf as soon as I read the first post of this thread.


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## deilaitha (May 25, 2012)

Guy Gavriel Kay's _The Fionavar Tapestry_ is a really good example of magic in writing.  Magic is not something to be used frivolously in this book, because in order to perform magic a mage must have a source.  The source is another person who allows the mage to draw on his own life-force in order to perform magic.  Too much magic and the mage could kill his source.  This creates an interesting dynamic because the mage and source typically become very close friends. 

I agree with most of the posters on this thread that magic which is sparse is more fun to read than the using magic all willy-nilly that shows up in a lot of wizardry type novels.  Kay's books are especially exciting to read because so much emotional energy is tied up in the practice of magic.  I highly recommend them.


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## Devor (May 25, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> Well, there is some room for power escalations.



Some, certainly.  But those kinds of escalations are part of why some of the people on this thread and elsewhere use the phrase Deus Ex Machina to talk about magic.  Where did that escalated power come from?  Why weren't they using that kind of magic earlier?  Sometimes those questions have clear answers - many at least try to answer them, I'm not out to attack anything in particular - but as a writer, these are the kinds of things we should be thinking about when deciding on how much magic to incorporate in our works.

But I want to be clear, I'm posting as a writer, not a reader.  I'm talking to writers, not readers.  If I was just a reader, I'd almost certainly tell everyone to shut up and let me enjoy my damned books.  _Gee, I didn't even notice those flaws until you said something, now I can't get them out of my head.  Thanks for ruining my book for me, scumbag._  I'm not trying to do that.  I'm only posting with the goals of helping people think about what they're writing, not to criticize anything that's already published.


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## Amanita (May 25, 2012)

As some of you might know, I'm a proud member of the pro-magic crowd as well.  I'm way more interested in well-written magic than in sword fights or medieval court intrigue and hope that others will continue feeling that way too because I want something to read.
What makes scenes with magic fun for me? When writing magical scenes it's very important to describe well what using the magic feels like, how it affects the character in question, how it affects the victim/ the one it's directed against and so on. This should be done in all important scenes but with magic it's even more important because we as the readers don't know what it's like to use your magic. The reader should be able to see this scene through the character's head and therefore become able to experience this new and unknown thing, one of the things I love about fantasy by the way. Sensual experiences are very helpful too. Are there sounds, smells, visible effects or anything along those lines? Does the magic have a special taste? Magic with a taste is rare, but it's been used in the Abhorsen books by Garth Nyx and worked really well there. Books aren't a visual medium, therefore it doesn't have to be limited to things the characters can see. Smells have a very powerful effect on people for example and are remembered very easily, this can be used in many different ways through the course of the story. 
Make the magic part of the society. People will have formed an opinion on it, it will probably vary among user and non-users, among different social groups, among different cultures and so on. Many ways this can effect the plot once again.
Magic doesn't need plenty of rules layed out in the book but it needs to be rooted into the setting your writing about, rather than be some tag-along power for some characters. It should feel like a natural part of the world in question.
If all of this is done, coming up with many different interesting situations involving magic isn't hard and many authors have succeded at it. 

I've never played any role-playing games, but reading what you write about them I believe that their take on magic isn't really helpful for writing. Random healing points or attacking points and the like lack any of the interesting aspects of magic and make boring scenes indeed. 
Doing magic well does require a bit of effort and like with many other things, everyone who doesn't like to put this effort into it, should leave it out or in the background and focus on the things he cares about most. There's no law that requires magic in fantasy, but it's one of various things that give fantasy stories their extra flavour.


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## Ankari (May 25, 2012)

I think that people treat magic too lightly when they incorporate it into their story.   Authors want to write a fantasy story with a secondary thought of using magic, instead of treating magic as a _character_.  They don't ask themselves what magic means to the world they've created, what is its history, and what is its fate?  What limitations do their magic systems have?  What laws bind it?  What laws do they bypass?

Authors will invest hours into creating a character sheet with vital information ranging from how the character looks to what nervous ticks they may have.  Why not treat magic the same way?

I'm currently doing that with my world.  When I review my various magic systems (I think I'll have 15 different disciplines when I'm done) I will be able to leaf through the pages as if I'm looking at an old D&D Player's Handbook.  I'll know in advance what spells are available, what the cost of such spells are (not mana), how long the effects are, and the range of the spell, and who it can affect.

This allows me to create a character, pick the discipline of magic I want him to use, then by deciding what level of mastery s/he has, what kind or how powerful the spells are.

It's a high level of detail, but the story won't suffer from it.  My hopes are that the reader will think of the magic systems like swords or daggers in any other story.  They are natural because their application is defined and well known.  It would be just as overbearing to introduce *The Hulk* into a story, even though he's person and not a magic system.  That's because his impact on the story is too undefined, limitless.


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## Feo Takahari (May 25, 2012)

I like how _Codex Alera_ sets up various rules of magic, then follows those rules to their logical conclusions, such that characters who think outside the box can create all sorts of unexpected (and frequently awesome) tricks. (I hear _Death Note_ does something similar with the powers of the note, albeit much lower-key.)

As for D&D-style systems . . . Well, I hear it works for Tarol Hunt, but I'm not sure I'd recommend trying to imitate him.


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## morfiction (May 26, 2012)

Brandon Sanderson has some good magic in his "Mistborn Trilogy." There's people in the book capable of "burning" certain metals that they ingest to perform some certain super human feet. There's coinshots who can launch coins at people at super rates of speed. There's thugs who can enhance their bodily strength. There are very few people who can use all abilities that the various metals afford and these people are called "Mistborns." 

It works out sorta like Avatar: The Last Airbender....


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