# Bullying in fantasy stories



## Amanita (Jul 18, 2011)

I hope this belongs here, I'm not quite sure though.
Many fantasy books with a young hero/ine tend to have him or her being bullied by their peers when they get to the institution of magical learning, to the military or where ever they're going. Some examples are the Black Magician-trilogy by Trudy Canavan geared at a younger audience and and the Codex Alera books. 
Most of the time, the hero is "different" for some reason and the others aren't prepared to put up with it.

What do you think about this cliche? I believe it can be called that.
I used to have this in the very first draft of my story as well, but I realised that it's really annoying me in books I'm reading and therefore I've decided to give her more varying relationships with her peers. The problem I have with the bullying-plot is the fact that it causes lot's of suffering and misery to the protagonist without really furthering the plot or having anything to do with the main problems of the story and it's not very exciting because I usually don't assume that the bullies are seriously dangerous to the protagonist. It also tends to force the protagonist into a very passive role which isn't really fun to read either.
Yet I also see the appeal in having the protagonist being forced to prove themselves in some way before getinng accepted and a few interesting conflicts when unfairness gets into the game as well.
What are your thoughts on that? If you put with stories that have such "juvenile" issues in them at all.


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## Map the Dragon (Jul 18, 2011)

Not everyone gets bullied, but I'm with you in that this has become a cliche, especially in YA fantasy. Hech, even in a DL novel (Soulforge), a young Raistlin Majere gets bullied. Granted his revenges are a little worse than most.

But, does everyone, especially those who turn into such heroes, have a bullied past? No. I'm a little tired of this cliche to be honest, but I still enjoyed the books where I found it. (HP, Ender, and more)

I would like some originality in the young hero scope, though.


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## sashamerideth (Jul 18, 2011)

Subvert it, make your hero a bully, might work?


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 21, 2011)

I think in some certain instances, it is appropriate, but more often than not, it's used to temper a character that perhaps needs a little challenge... but let's be real, it's sort of lazy.  
I however did write a bully into one of my stories.  My character was a freed serf, and the man who purchased him asked him to join the military.... where he was trained alongside other young men mostly of noble birth there only to earn a knighthood for the honor of their families.  It wasn't a big part of the plot, just a reinforcement that he was a common boy with nothing to back him up but himself.  He isn't a hero, and never becomes one, but the bullying is a short segment in a big story.
Bullying is natural, let's be honest.  Many animals do it, and it is in the nature of humans to pick out the weak one and drive them out of the group.  The thing is, that it doesn't always happen in school or a club or whatever just because you are the new guy or because you're kind of dorky..... it can happen because you are prettier or younger or you have a funny last name.  
If it doesn't motivate your plot, I'd think about losing the bullying, unless it's something you feel you need to define your character or their actions.  I honestly haven't read many YA fantasy, I'm kinda of the old school novels, but if it's something you see a lot, I'd maybe find something equally powerful, but unique.


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## fcbkid15 (Jul 24, 2011)

I agree its pretty cliche. But sometimes it works. If you want your character to " go to the darkside", if you will, than i'd throw in some childhood bullying to add to his anger. If you want him to be good, I don't really see a need for it, other than having him become a hero and show that bullies don't get what they want, which is an overused cliche in stories. I mean, if you want him to have a bad past, have bullying, its your character. But do it right and have the right people get bullied. I'll show you an example. 

In harry potter 7 when we learn that harrys dad bullied snape when they were young, and when we went to flashbacks of it, i got the feeling that snape was a great man, when harrys dad was just a d**k. I don't know if thats what the author was going for, but I don't think it was. We were supposed to feel that harrys dad and snape were both great people, but I only felt that for the latter. Hope I helped!


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## Wolfie (Jul 24, 2011)

Really, any writer needs to ask himself "why"
Is bullying required in your story? Is it essential to your character? Could it just as easily be replaced with some other type of abuse? Is there some type of abuse that could make your character more unique, or that would fit better in with his personality?

Finally, if you settle for bullying, consider if you really have to show it as something that occurs through out the story or if you can just indicate that it is a part of the characters past. Don't avoid a cliche just because it's cliche, but make sure you aren't just taking the easy road.


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## CicadaGrrl (Jul 25, 2011)

Bullying is natural.  Especially in YA stories, it may very well be central.  Bullying can be a devastating process.  Asking why it is in YA novels is asking why do we discuss getting bigger or stronger or moving away from our parents in YA novels.  Yeah, not every character has to be bullied, especially if it has no purpose in the plot.  I actually have a couple of characters who were, at least at some point in their lives, bullies.  I think the basic answer is that being bullied is a big thing a lot of kids--bullied or bulliers relate to and are interested in.


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## Argentum (Jul 29, 2011)

When we say bully, what do we mean exactly? Does this, say, represent being shoved into walls or having books slapped out of your hands? I think that is cliche, but in some stories I do thing that being attacked by others forces the character into confrontation and to finally stand up for himself. But couldn't you get that by a different way of bullying aside from the most common? Say, me, I wasn't bullied in school. But if there was a joke and I laughed, they stopped laughing. They gave you the 'look' and scattered whenever you came near. It's not bullying, per say, but I think it could be devastating enough depending on the character. This is probably a fine line between cliche, but I think if you were being bullied creatively, perhaps you could make it work, or just toss it out altogether.


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## Matty Lee (Jul 31, 2011)

I generally don't like bullying because it generally is "Note to Reader: This character is a jerk and this one is a perpetual victim/avenger". Also, I've never cared about the social problems of people my own age. Most of this bullying stuff, despite my exposure to it, doesn't qualify as more than a footnote in my life. Maybe it's repression or something. 

Anyways, bullying is a real fact of life, and there's nothing wrong with portraying it. However I don't think it could function as the cornerstone of a story unless you had a LOT of fun with an eccentric plot.


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## Memmorio (Aug 2, 2011)

Bullying can work in the case of a character like Dresden where he hates bullies and stands up to them even when it's stupid to do so.  It can be done to death though so avoid it unless you need it.  It can work for teen fiction where it is more immediately relevant to the audience but I'd say try to stay away from it unless it works for the story perfectly.


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## Leuco (Aug 4, 2011)

I like misfit characters. Reminds me of the X-Men. They always have to prove themselves. Bullying, though, makes me think of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. Draco Malfoy (I think that's his name) is always picking on Harry Potter and his Muggle friends. That bratty little punk...


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## Barnes4321 (Aug 24, 2011)

Personally, i think bullying CAN have a point to the plot beyond highlighting the difference between the protaganist and the bullies, like in Trudi Canovans Novice. Sonea's unwillingness to have anything to do with Akkarin is highlighted and defined further when Regin and the others corner here and pound on her weakened body with stunstrike. Even then, when she's in pain and in considerable danger, she still wouldn't call out the 'villain' at the time. Also, i only just joined and i love this site already


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## Leuco (Aug 24, 2011)

Welcome, Barnes! Maybe you should try introducing yourself in the introductions thread. You can tell us what you like to read, maybe a little about your projects, or some of your influences.


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## Ark1117 (Aug 24, 2011)

I agree with what a lot of the others have said; every time I start to read a story and pick up on the bully relationship between 
two characters I roll my eyes. I'm tired of seeing it, and I know that I will always avoid it. Another similar situation that has been done to death, but can be a little bit more flexible in the way you write your story is in rivals. People say that, especially in the pasts couple posts, that Malfoy is the bully of HP. But, I see it more as rivals trying to one up each other, as a bully is usually dominant and the victim can do little to fight back. Rivals, on the other hand, can drive a character to do desperate, perhaps insane things for retaliation.


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## Whytemanga (Aug 29, 2011)

Martin first had his typical-protagonist-boy-hero-character seem to be bullied by pulling the viewpoint a certain way during the character's training days at his new home, Castle Black. By "pulling", I really mean keeping it in-line with the central character of the chapter; so, hiding, or obscuring the objective view with the character's own subjective view.

_I should be teaching this somewhere, what the hey._

He did something nifty though. Something very rare in writing, but more than often required for genre to grow and progress. He had Jon Snow (his typical-protag-yatta-yatta) realise he'd been accidentally bullying his now-turned bullies. The knowledge pains him, but Martin has him take it to heart; learn from it and do what he can to set things strait against the real bullies -- the kids and instrutor who were taking out their frustrations on the weakest of them simply 'cuz they couldn't take the "heat" of living in Castle Black.

Ain't no reciprocal reasoning for these real bullies to be picking on the weak -- that's why it's okay to see them get their just deserts. Using the "stress", or "bad parenting" tropes can get old really fast though, so watch it!

But, uh, so yeah. What Martin does is, he _deconstructs_ old, overly-used fantasy tropes, then _reconstructs_ them into something our modern world's critical eye (including his own) sees as more reasonable.

Maybe he starts with something generic, hints that it might not be generic, then reveals that it wasn't actually generic (playing with reader expectation), or he plays with something non-generic, than slowly morphs it (using plot so that we see a justification for it to...) become more of a traditional, generic trope that he's fond of, but want not to be grilled over for incorporating into his writing/story.

Go, read a book or four on manipulation. You'll need those kinds of skills if you really want to stir up reader expectation -- or, in other words, write good _bullying_ scenes .


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## SeverinR (Aug 29, 2011)

Cliche is when something written falls in line with several other works.  It becomes generic, tired, boring.

You can write about cliche items, but not be cliche. 

The book I just finished had bullying in it.  But it was not cliche.
Arrows for the Queen-M. LAckey
The timid MC had the typical bullying, pushed, tripped, shoved into "muck puddles."
It was a cliche bullying, but in the end it was leading up to a assasination attempt.

They bullied her to drive her from her position assisting the Heir to the throne. When she didn't leave they hurled her from a bridge into a deep icy stream.

Almost everything can be or become cliche.  The authors job is to make it unusual.  Make it stand out.
Not just the spoiled rich brat picking on the poor peasant because he is bored of having everything he ever wanted.


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## Vandroiy (Sep 20, 2011)

This is an interesting topic. I have a side character that probably _should_ get at least attempts of bullying, and a few scenes where I need such people. I have a problem with that though... I'm bad at bullying, so when someone does it inside my story, it seems weird. Is someone here who understands the dynamics of why, when and how a typical bully acts?

I'm missing a part in the puzzle there. Here's what I know about them.

The only time I was faced with it a long time back, I learned to respond in a pattern completely different from the "bullying" itself. I learned a bit of how they think at best -- but never _why_ they do it, and what triggers the behavior other than the target appearing weak against the type of attack. I know they are usually of medium social position; neither at the top nor bottom of the pecking order. Increasing the attention they get is essential, though the weakest bullies may be content with just the attention of the one they target. I also noticed they're borderline cowardly in this behavior. Any signs of accepting the challenge and playing their game results in the bullies' apparent complete memory loss about the conflict. What I read out of that is that the benefits barely outweigh the cost, such that any negative feedback dwarfs whatever profit they hope to get. They do it on a spontaneous notion most of the time. My guess is that planning it would again be too costly, unless the attack is really spectacular. I suppose making an enemy of someone is a really bad deal unless retaliation is very unlikely, and humans instinctively know that.

But that still doesn't suffice to create a bully. I can create a character who is utterly stupid and just goes aggressive, or swears at someone for no reason -- but that just isn't it. Nor is one whose target is to defeat his enemy; that's a fighter, not a bully.

I'm still trying to figure this out. How do I create a bully character?


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## sashamerideth (Sep 20, 2011)

Bullies have a feeling of inferiority, so they need to make themselves feel superior by degrading those that show signs of weakness or fear. Bullies will rarely target someone that does not exhibit the above signs.

I count racial hatred, bigotry, etc as separate from bullying, a true bully has no reason other than their own cowardice. Bigots are driven by hate.


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## RedRidingHood (Sep 20, 2011)

Bullying is very on-topic with today's society, but I think you have to be careful about how it is included. Most heros are the underdog and generally not loved by anyone. There's always that jealousy issue looming about. I think what you have to decide is what bullying means not just to the character, but the world. How does bullying play into the world around the protagonist as they see it? Does the bullying drive the character to do something, thus driving the plot forward? If something isn't driving you plot forward, think about how vital it is.


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## Vandroiy (Sep 21, 2011)

sashamerideth said:


> Bullies have a feeling of inferiority, so they need to make themselves feel superior by degrading those that show signs of weakness or fear. Bullies will rarely target someone that does not exhibit the above signs.
> 
> I count racial hatred, bigotry, etc as separate from bullying, a true bully has no reason other than their own cowardice. Bigots are driven by hate.



That might actually be an interesting interpretation. So, if I'm getting this right, they try to make others inferior to them to prove they themselves are not something inferior? I can hardly imagine them consciously thinking like that, but maybe they do in their subconscious.

Now that might be something I can create a character on. Simple as it sounds, this might actually be the explanation for their motivation I was looking for. Thanks for the hint, I'll try it if the story indeed needs a bully at some point. *uses the reputation feature for the first time*

I don't agree on the second point though, I think the racial hatred is based on xenophobia. Hate is no basic motivation.


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## Meg the Healer (Sep 21, 2011)

Sadly, I'm not sure which is worse - the fact that bullying has become so commonplace that it's been reduced to a cliche or that it's become so commonplace that readers are starting to think "well what else is new....you were picked on as a kid - big deal - tell me something different."

Let's face it, the bullying aspect is something most of us have experienced (one way or the other). I may have bullied "enemies" of mine, but I was bullied my "friends" - though I think that was called "peer pressure" in my days - because your friends really shouldn't be "bullies." (Whatever - let's just call a spade a spade). But it was always about seeking real/imaginary approval/fear from someone.

The problem is most everything that drives a protaganist into action is a cliche. There's a tyrannical king, a prophecy was made, the protaganist's entire family was murdered, there's a great evil to overcome, etc. It's just as boring (nowadays apparently) to read about a person that was bullied as much as person who has had to overcome nothing and led a "perfect" life - where's the story in that?

If the bullying doesn't "help" your protagonist in anyway - then I would just skip it or at least explain why they can be so passive about being bullied, but be so vehement about something else. And remember, YA, is typically geared towards 12-18 years old - who are still in grade/high school. Bullying is part of their daily life (either as the bully or as the victim) and with so much emphasis on bullying (especially in the States), it's no surpirse that it has mingled in with fantasy storytelling.


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## Devor (Sep 27, 2011)

In my opinion, skip the commentary on bullies, and use just a few interactions to show us something about the character, if it's warranted.  The bully is probably your character's first enemy, and it will show the reader how he deals with the bad guys.  But I don't think it's worth too many words or protracted "How do I deal with this?!" conversations.  The bully, even as your first enemy, is still just the muscle.  I would have him throw a punch (maybe a metaphor, maybe not) and get his comeuppance in the course of a very few pages in order to save time for more complex and important social relationships.


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## Whytemanga (Sep 28, 2011)

Oof, you make it sound so formulaic, Devor. Plot patterns are good for setting up expectations in your readers--so you can throw them off; surprise them. I don't know for what much else I'd like 'em for.

I'm dropping the "bully has problems at home" thing, 'cuz I think most bullying happens on the "doesn't realise s/he's bullying" thing or the "abuse of, possibly unearned, power" thang.

With those in mind, they act more as a "this PLUS SOMETHING ELSE" reasoning (like "family problems at home" does, but with these it's much less obvious what sorts of reasonings or forces (or natures) have shoved these kids (or adults) into a bullying nature.

The target also needs to be easily identifiable as "weak" also. Bullies can't just pick on anyone--especially the cool guy. Bullies are sure to pick on he or she who the others in the community wouldn't mind so much to see being bullied, you know?

That's what I think.

Oh! Also, bullying isn't just muscle! Much of girl-bullies and girl bullying is psychological, and in fact happens much more often that male-to-male bullying statistically speaking. It's a real problem!


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## CicadaGrrl (Sep 29, 2011)

Pretty much everything is clichÃ©.  What matters is how you tell what you are telling, not what you are telling.  The only way that it matters the what is that bullying is a major, serious issue in school.  It's physical and emotional terrorism.  It may be twenty or thirty years later, but all of us can probably remember exactly how and by who we were bullied.  If you want to make bullying an important aspect of your story, by all means do.  Frankly, it is sort of the hip thing to do right now as schools, parents, and child psychologists really come to the fore about how serious a problem bullying really is.  If your character doesn't need that background and you don't want to make this an angle in your book, lose it.


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## 98cafe (Sep 29, 2011)

Bullying might be a bit cliche, but that does not make it any less valid in a story.  I would hazard to say that, because of how prevalent bullying is in schools today, having a story involving children or young adults in a academic setting without some form of bullying could make it seem a bit odd.  Bullying (in fiction...not real life) is also a good character building tool.  How does the character respond to the bullying?  Does he ignore it?  Seek out a powerful ally/authority figure? Resort to bullying others himself? Or (the clichÃ©) stand up by himself against the bullies' injustice?


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## ScipioSmith (Oct 6, 2011)

As far as I'm concerned the problem with bullying is not that it is a cliche, but that a) the bully is completely two dimensional (people have talked about this already) and more importantly b) the bully is also completely inferior to the protagonist in every way and everybody knows it. To take the HP example used already, Draco bullies Harry, and is his social superior, yet at the same time Draco is also a useless little twerp; Harry has just as much money, more magical and flying talent, more guts and significantly has the favour of the Headmaster and most of the teaching faculty. Is it any wonder Draco gets the fangirls when the deck is stacked against him? 

I think just presenting a bully who can present a genuine challenge to the hero would be a nice break from the pattern. Or, as mentioned above, make the hero the bully. I have a scenario where, in the backstory, the line between what the hero calls 'looking out for his little brother and protecting him from bullies' and what others might call 'taking out his psychotic rage on anyone who looked at his brother funnily' is very thinly drawn.


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## Dreamer (Oct 6, 2011)

I agree that it does seem that most stories gearing toward a younger audience tend to go that route.  I think in a way it is 
supposed to help the adolescents to maybe feel a bond with possible personal struggles they face in reality.  Maybe they have a 
gift or express themselves in a way that others tend to make fun of them over, so there is kind of a way to feel like they aren't 
alone, and at the end of the day that gift is special.  I would like to see a story that shows an individual going through growing up and discovery and having friends and being popular only to find out that they have a gift, then trying to decide how to reveal it.  I think I may have just got a new idea for my next story.  Just goes to show you the creative moments can come from anywhere...


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## Emeria (Oct 6, 2011)

I tend to avoid overt bullying in the fantasy stuff I write (that's not to say *anything* about the "RL" stuff, though!), especially since it has been done a lot.  It's not that characters haven't been bullied in the past (some of them have and it does have an effect on them), but I don't put anymore emphasis on "this person acts like this because they've been bullied by their peers" than "this person does this because ___" (fill in the blank with just about anything).


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## Amanita (Oct 7, 2011)

That's a long lasting thread indeed. 
In my opinion, the situation between Harry Potter and Draco Malfoy is not bullying, but rivalry or enmity. With the exception of a few short episodes, Harry has the respect of the people in his house and dorm, only being in trouble with a few Slytherins. And to him, those Slytherins aren't people about whose approval he cares anyway. 
To me, the term "bullying" implies that a person is disliked by all or at least most members of a given group and is faced with their hostility everywhere in the school/group. And this is a situation that isn't much more helpful for character-building than putting in a gratitious rape scene is. At least not, if the person is supposed to turn into a classical hero rather than going down some darker path to distance himself from the group or even get revenge.
The cliche that I dislike usually has hero being bullied by his shallow fellows until the plot moves on, the realises that these are a minor problem compared to saving the world and later saves one of the bullies and/or has them admit that they're wrong. This might be a wish-fulfilling fantasy for some people being bullied, but I don't think it works as part of a compelling story. 

For my own story, I've decided by now that the main character will actually take part in bullying or maybe I should call it acting hostile against someone who's disliked by many people. He's acting against some of her firm moral beliefs mainly by making fun of things deadly serious to her. (And she's projecting things she dislikes about herself onto him.) During the course of the story, she and some of the others are going to realise that they're being way to self-rightous and change their behaviour, but than it's almost too late...


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## Aegle (Oct 7, 2011)

I prefer complete adversary in writing. A challenge...especially female and male counterparts. The 'bullying' aspect is somehow channeling its way into other platforms, that I don't quite agree with. I simply don't buy into the created problems of society. -.-

As for writing - I'd sure as heck not limit my imagination by those that are sensitive about those mentioned 'created problems'.


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## Amanita (Oct 7, 2011)

> The 'bullying' aspect is somehow channeling its way into other platforms, that I don't quite agree with. I simply don't buy into the created problems of society.


Would you mind explaining what you mean by this? I don't really understand it. What are the "created problems of society" supposed to be?


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