# Don't be afraid of conflict



## Telcontar (Dec 29, 2011)

This is in relation to the recently locked thread "Does alcohol improve your writing?"

It turned into a fairly heated argument, but along the way a statement was made about 'creating tension.'

We should not be afraid of tension. Argument is good, and both tension and conflict can be good. If we're to have mature arguments over very tough issues on this board, we all need to learn to debate without anger or petty sniping. I can speak with people over all sorts of issues - drug use, rape, violence, murder, capital punishment, war, what-have-you - because I can detach from the issue and speak rationally, ignoring whatever my own emotions might be telling me to do. I believe this is a very valuable skill. It is a skill that those in the above-mentioned thread should attempt to cultivate, as well. 

I do not wish to see a lot of locked threads and banned topics on these boards. I have a strong dislike of censorship and limitation of speech. To that end, I hope we can all adopt some sort of ethic for treating these issues rationally. I invite everyone to use this thread to discuss that ethic and the ways in which we can make it evident.


----------



## Steerpike (Dec 29, 2011)

I agree with what you wrote there, Telcontar.

I think one problem that arises is people have many different styles of communication. My style tends to be somewhat sarcastic, and somewhat "confrontational" (and I don't use that word in a negative way). In direct interpersonal communications, people tend not to be offended because they can hear my tone, observe body language, facial expression, and the like, and are likely to take my comments as intended. And I approach their comments in the same way.

On an internet forum you lose all that and are left with just the words, and people tend to project their own personalities onto what they are reading. If a person reads something that is sarcastic or sniping, and they themselves wouldn't use sarcastic or sniping language unless they were angry or intended to hurt someone's feelings, then they assume that is what the other forum member is doing. 

I think much (most?) of the misunderstandings in internet forums come from a person reading something and then projecting themselves onto what they are reading to assess the intentions of the poster. It is generally a mistake to do this. I like sarcastic banter, even if it occasionally dips to the level of mild insult, and I don't assume the other person is angry when I see it because I'm not angry when I post such things. Of course, that leads to the opposite problem, which is something I am susceptible to - not realizing when another person's feelings have actually been hurt in an exchange, because the same comments would not hurt my feelings.

It is a difficult problem for mods. But I'm also in favor of little or no censorship of posts. That's just my personal preference.


----------



## The Blue Lotus (Dec 29, 2011)

I for one hope that they did not lock the thread on my account!

 I was editing a post to inform everyone that while I was not upset by the rape reference, I could easily see how others could be. 

I just happen to be made of some pretty tough stuff, it is perhaps the only reason I made it through my life as ballanced as I am. 

I only wish the same could be said of everyone. 

Regardless, some tact should be used when dealing with others. 
You never know where they have been or what they have had happen to them, or what scars still linger that are not visiable to the world. There is never a good time to be ignorant or insensitive. IMHO.

~May you all be blessed~


----------



## The Blue Lotus (Dec 29, 2011)

Also, 
A big part of the problem online is that little things that we all use as cues like tone, inflection, even body language just are not here. All we have are the words on the screen and the emotions that we all feel. Sometimes the two don't mesh well.


----------



## Reaver (Dec 29, 2011)

The Blue Lotus said:


> Also,
> A big part of the problem online is that little things that we all use as cues like tone, inflection, even body language just are not here. All we have are the words on the screen and the emotions that we all feel. Sometimes the two don't mesh well.



Isn't that what the smilies are for? 


  



Sorry...I'm just being facetious.(Why isn't there an emoticon for that?) 
 You make a very good point, Lotus. Thanks for being a voice of reason and calm.


----------



## The Blue Lotus (Dec 29, 2011)

We _*need*_ more emoticons! They go a long way in preventing these types of ... Misunderstandings.


----------



## Benjamin Clayborne (Dec 29, 2011)

The Blue Lotus said:


> I for one hope that they did not lock the thread on my account!



No... I don't think you were the problem. 

*EDIT:* By the way, if you need it, you can add users to your *ignore list*.


----------



## Ghost (Dec 29, 2011)

Yes, more emoticons! There are times when I consider my emoticons more carefully than my words. Yeah, it's pretty bad. I don't do the whole "cool, detached, rational" thing. It's not my style. In spite of that, I don't _think_ I'm in a feud with anyone. Any takers?

A little friction is fine. To be expected, even, in a community like this. It's not a bad thing until posters make personal attacks against each other and drown threads in negativity. Plus, it derails the threads. I'm glad I wasn't invested in finding out whether drinking improves writing or not. 

Locked threads, hurt feelings and wounded egos are depressing, so I hope it doesn't become a trend. Most posters here seem level-headed and/or friendly, so I'm not worried about right now.


----------



## Benjamin Clayborne (Dec 29, 2011)

Ouroboros said:


> In spite of that, I don't _think_ I'm in a feud with anyone. Any takers?



Let's see, I have a slot free... Tuesday at 11:30. I'll pencil you in.

On the original topic... it's perfectly fine for people to have conflicts of opinion and perspective. As you say, Ouroboros, the problem comes when people resort to personal attacks or excessive negativity. Some people just make you angry because they can't have a rational discussion, and you just have to put them on your ignore list, or you'll go nuts trying to reason with them.


----------



## Black Dragon (Dec 29, 2011)

Sadly, I missed out on the excitement in that thread.  I was too busy getting wasted.

Just to clarify, the topic of the discussion wasn't banned or censored.  The thread was locked because it had devolved into an endless argument, and was becoming toxic.  No one was being helped by that thread continuing.  On the contrary, it had to be locked to contain the toxicity before it got out of hand.  

Myrddin totally made the right call.  And as he said, the participants are free to discuss the topic in another thread.  But that particular flow of discussion had reached a point of no return, and allowing it to continue would have only done harm.


----------



## Legendary Sidekick (Dec 29, 2011)

The Blue Lotus said:


> I just happen to be made of some pretty tough stuff


You certainly are!

Thanks for sharing, and for being so level-headed.


----------



## Benjamin Clayborne (Dec 29, 2011)

Black Dragon said:


> Sadly, I missed out on the excitement in that thread.  I was too busy getting wasted.



**spffttpftptftt**


----------



## myrddin173 (Dec 29, 2011)

The Blue Lotus said:


> I for one hope that they did not lock the thread on my account!



In my opinion your post had to be posted, but I have to be honest it was a contributing factor.  By no means however should you blame yourself.

As for this thread, I am all for argument.  (I'm an argumentative person by nature, I enjoy the intellectual stimulation).  I agree that it is a good thing, as long as it stays mature.  Sadly, the aforementioned thread had not.  It was a difficult decision and I did not like making it, but I think it was the right one.  That said I hope that the discussion can continue, in a different thread, and maintain the maturity level I believe we are capable of.

Edit:Ninja'd again.  Thank you Black Dragon.


----------



## Devor (Dec 29, 2011)

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have gotten involved.  I thought someone was a little out of line; I shouldn't have said so.  In previous forum communities I've been involved with that would have been an effective way to resolve the situation, but I was also a Mod there, believe it or not, and people were a little closer together.  I will be steering far away from conflicts here in the future.


----------



## Xanados (Dec 30, 2011)

I will say this only once: I am not afraid of conflict. That is the _sole _ reason why I continued as far as I went. You people say that you want rational discussion? That is what I believe I was having. I wanted someone to argue with me about my opinion. I, like Myrdinn, enjoy heated debates. I’m not immature as to be overwhelmed with emotion. That is why I used the words “cold” and “clinical” in one of my posts last night. You say that you want to have normal discussion about serious topics without them being emotion fuelled? Then why I am, clearly, the one being blamed? I simply stated a fact. I was then slated by The Blue Lotus with an emotional story about rape.


----------



## The Blue Lotus (Dec 30, 2011)

Xanados said:


> I will say this only once: I am not afraid of conflict. That is the _sole _ reason why I continued as far as I went. You people say that you want rational discussion? That is what I believe I was having. I wanted someone to argue with me about my opinion. I, like Myrdinn, enjoy heated debates. I’m not immature as to be overwhelmed with emotion. That is why I used the words “cold” and “clinical” in one of my posts last night. You say that you want to have normal discussion about serious topics without them being emotion fuelled? Then why I am, clearly, the one being blamed? I simply stated a fact. I was then slated by The Blue Lotus with an emotional story about rape.



Xan,
If you are unable to understand how such a rude, uncalled for, totaly insensitive statement the likes of which you made last night could upset and possiably harm someone else I truely pity you. 
Words even when spoken by someone you have never met can and do cause real harm. 
I highly doubt you are such a cold hearted bastard as to go about life as normal, if you found out someone killed themselves because something you posted without thinking about, caused them to tailspin into a depression and kill themselves. 
Just watch what you say and how you say it, try not to be a jerk.


----------



## Xanados (Dec 30, 2011)

The Blue Lotus said:


> Xan,
> If you are unable to understand how such a rude, uncalled for, totaly insensitive statement the likes of which you made last night could upset and possiably harm someone else I truely pity you.
> Words even when spoken by someone you have never met can and do cause real harm.
> I highly doubt you are such a cold hearted bastard as to go about life as normal, if you found out someone killed themselves because something you posted without thinking about, caused them to tailspin into a depression and kill themselves.
> Just watch what you say and how you say it, try not to be a jerk.


You still don't fully understand my statment. Stop taking this so far. You are the only one being over emotional here, I'm afraid. I wasn't even being a jerk about rape. I was making a proper statment that people do, in fact, sometimes play the victim card for attention. SOME PEOPLE.

Did I ONCE make fun of you? Did I once insult people who have been raped? NO.

Why am I a jerk?


----------



## The Blue Lotus (Dec 30, 2011)

Here are some fun facts for you Xan. 
Statistics | RAINN | Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network
1:4 women will be abused in their lives. 44% of those abused are abused by someone they know and trust. 
Please educate yourselfs people. It is not something that should be made light of. If the fact that it happenes does not make you sick to your tummy than something is wrong. Are there some who milk the preverbaial cow? Sure, but by far most never speak about it. 
Internalizing is part of the problem. We need to remove the stigma, the shame, and that blanket of silence that tends to go hand in hand with that subject. 
All I said was that you ( since I know you kinda ) would not be happy to find out that something you said really honestly hurt someone. 
Now I am going to leave it at that and not check this thread again for a while, or any others for that matter have a happy new year.


----------



## Xanados (Dec 30, 2011)

Oh, GIVE IT A REST.  I'm sorry, but you aren't listening to me. It pains me to see how much you are using this to your advantage. WE GET IT. I'M NOT SAYING THAT RAPE IS A LIGHT-HEARTED SUBJECT. I'M SAYING THAT SOME, I REPEAT, _SOME_ PEOPLE EXAGGERATE. 

Saying "please educate yourselves, people" like a smug person is not helping your cause. We understand!

I feel the use of caps-lock is the only way to get that through to you, at the risk of being banned.

Enough.

Edit: Actually, I cannot stand for this injustice. When did I ever say that rape was something to be made light of? When, I ask you? I am saying the opposite! Your latest post seems to be disregarding mine completley. If I get banned because of this post, I am going to be furious. I have done nothing wrong to you.


----------



## Steerpike (Dec 30, 2011)

Xanados said:


> Oh, GIVE IT A REST. I'm sorry, but you aren't listening to me. It pains me to see how much you are using this to your advantage. WE GET IT. I'M NOT SAYING THAT RAPE IS A LIGHT-HEARTED THING. I'M SAYING THAT SOME, I REPEAT, _SOME_ PEOPLE EXAGGERATE.
> 
> SERIOUSLY?
> 
> ...



Dude, give it a rest. Whatever point you are trying to make should now be considered an epic fail. You are coming across like an emotionally-overwrought and immature child. Just drop the subject and move on. Please.


----------



## Reaver (Dec 30, 2011)

Xanados said:


> Oh, GIVE IT A REST. I'm sorry, but you aren't listening to me. It pains me to see how much you are using this to your advantage. WE GET IT. I'M NOT SAYING THAT RAPE IS A LIGHT-HEARTED SUBJECT. I'M SAYING THAT SOME, I REPEAT, _SOME_ PEOPLE EXAGGERATE.
> 
> Saying "please educate yourselves, people" like a smug person is not helping your cause. We understand!
> 
> ...




Dude, seriously, lighten up. Roll up a nice fat doobie, or a hookah, take a few REALLY big hits and relax.


----------



## Xanados (Dec 30, 2011)

Reaver said:


> Dude, seriously, lighten up. Roll up a nice fat doobie, or a hookah, take a few REALLY big hits and relax.


You deserve a warning for that post. I am not kidding. I am dealing with injustice here and you come in and make a snide comment like that, knowing full well about my opinion of drugs. That is just distasteful. 

I'm trying to get somone to realise their injustice in what they are saying.

I will not take somone calling me a jerk for having done nothing. I repeat, _NOTHING._ That is the way I have been brought up.


----------



## myrddin173 (Dec 30, 2011)

Please stop arguing...


----------



## Xanados (Dec 30, 2011)

myrddin173 said:


> Please stop arguing...


I'm not arguing. I'm trying to get Lotus to understand my original pointm fairly calmly. Why did she call me a jerk for having done nothing at all, I ask?


----------



## Reaver (Dec 30, 2011)

myrddin173 said:


> Please stop arguing...



Not a problem.


----------



## Xanados (Dec 30, 2011)

Okay, I'm leaving this. But I will not be the one to blame for this disruption. That is something I will not stand for. 
Lotus is being reckless in her judgment. She has not realised my original point. She has called me a jerk for no reason. I have done nothing wrong. Usually, back in the day, I would rant and rave about injustice, but no. I'm not going to give her the satisfaction.


----------



## Devor (Dec 30, 2011)

Xanados said:


> Okay, I'm leaving this. But I will not be the one to blame for this disruption. That is something I will not stand for.
> Lotus is being reckless in her judgment. She has not realised my original point. She has called me a jerk for no reason. I have done nothing wrong. Usually, back in the day, I would rant and rave about injustice, but no. I'm not going to give her the satisfaction.



The thing is, people don't talk about rape because it's insensitive to do so, it triggers bad memories and emotions.  Saying "please be mindful of sensitivities" is not the same as playing the "victim" card.  People do play the victim card to get what they want, but your remarks were not an example of it.  That's what you said which was so offensive.  You accused people of doing something wrong just for being a little sensitive about a subject of which they are genuinely the victim.


----------



## Xanados (Dec 30, 2011)

It looks like we're a bunch that is not afraid of conflict, aye? ;]


----------



## Black Dragon (Dec 30, 2011)

Enough.  This stops NOW.


----------



## Xanados (Dec 30, 2011)

Black Dragon said:


> Enough.  This stops NOW.


Clearly my light-hearted last post was the ending of it, wasn't it? I brought us back to the original topic of discussion: not to be afraid of conflict.


----------



## fleamailman (Jan 6, 2012)

("...what waste of really good talent then..." voiced the goblin mostly to himself he imagined, imagining too, that the readers will turn up here, and instead of seeing something that shows this forum and those on it in a good light, their posting talent, their creativeness that is, instead, they will actually see is this thread then, in fact, the goblin felt all that was needed is a _boiler room section_ where any overheated topics could simply be transferred to, and where then the hotheads could then have it out leaving the rest of us to get on with that which we actually came here for, the turning this forum into a showrcase of their creative writing that is...", and with that the goblin was feeling so very old again, saying "...no, I don't know how long I'll stay here either now, but I do know this is neither helping your writing nor your forum now...")


----------



## sashamerideth (Jan 6, 2012)

"Oh shut up you disfigured little green elf," Sashamerideth said to the Goblin, hoisting him up by a green toe. She shook him until his dapper top hat and monacle dropped to the floor. &ldquo;Let's see if that sets you straight, vile creature!"

She dropped the Goblin to the ground, and paced. "I've heard and read a lot about rape in books, and too many people get it wrong. It's almost clichÃ© that a driven female character will be driven by a rape in her past, or that a damaged woman is that way because of a rape. Done cheaply, it is a bad literary device and is insulting. Done well it can be a powerful tool for building a character.

"And the perpetrator? Usually it's about power, rarely greed or lust. Other than making the perpetrator a pedophile, is there any better, or more clichÃ©d way of saying 'this is a bad man?'. " Sashamerideth sneered at the Goblin and asked, "Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes, or no!" 

She knew that the Goblin wasn't a bad creature, but she wanted to illustrate a slice of conflict without intending any real harm. She really did like the pitiful creature, and it saddened her to kick him, again. She hoped it didn&rsquo;t hurt, and apologized under her breath.


----------



## Steerpike (Jan 6, 2012)

*thread pokes its head from the ground*

"BRAINS!!!!!!"


----------



## fleamailman (Jan 6, 2012)

("...wow, you know just how to get us goblins aroused by such foreplay then..." gleefully replied the goblin at Sashamerideth antics feeling that here at least was a woman he could look up to then, asking "...your torture chamber or mine...", where the night was young now, and where its white slanted smiled seemed to guess at those things that the truly wicked could get up to behind closed doors here, adding "...ah the elation at such fear mingled with pain from one so beautiful...", not that it could ever be though he knew, adding "...sometimes I forget myself while other times I remember who I am, and of course its quasimodo addressing esmeralda between us, for I am so unworthy of you...")


----------



## sashamerideth (Jan 6, 2012)

"I do not Rishathra," Sashamerideth said, "however, may I suggest that we run away from the thread zombies!" She stumbled over the Goblin's top hat, crushing it as she fled from the dead thread.


----------



## fleamailman (Jan 6, 2012)

("...anything to please, if you please that is..." mumbled the goblin suspecting a plot here, but knowing too that there might be spoils in it yet, and yet chatting to a zombie on a _fantasy_ forum could hardly be much worse than chatting to mommies on _women's interest_ forums, "...I'm game..." declared the goblin picking up his scattered thoughts, the twilight zone music broke into the background as the scene changed its settings once more, somehow the moon's smile had became a wink of an eye in its time now)


----------



## Telcontar (Jan 6, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> *thread pokes its head from the ground*
> 
> "BRAINS!!!!!!"



Oh, come now. The thread wasn't _that_ old - though I had given it up for dead. Seeing that it was immediately hijacked by the exact, hrm, shall we say 'errant' behavior that it was meant to combat.


----------



## Devor (Jan 6, 2012)

Telcontar said:


> Oh, come now. The thread wasn't _that_ old - though I had given it up for dead. Seeing that it was immediately hijacked by the exact, hrm, shall we say 'errant' behavior that it was meant to combat.



This thread should really have been left for dead.




sashamerideth said:


> I've heard and read a lot about rape in books, and too many people get it wrong.



Yeah.  This wasn't about people in books.


----------



## Xanados (Jan 7, 2012)

I agree, Devor. 
-.-


----------



## fleamailman (Jan 7, 2012)

(and with that the thread had simply descended into chinese whispers now, where *those you didn't know made comments you didn't understand for others who weren't listening*, and where too, rape was holding in utter contempt that which one is forcing one's own self gratification upon, perhaps the newly arrived readers in this case, repeating "...surely, since you'll agree this is none of my business here, nor what readers would expect to find, and certainly nothing to do with this forum, it can either be continued within private PMs or transfered to a boiler-room type section, leaving those more interested is advancing their writing upon this forum to do so...", not that the goblin was against heated debate, just that he felt that doing it in the chit-chat section was going to show mythickscribes forum in a bad light since here was the first place that anyone new first looked, saying "...actually, I'm on your side if you would care to be on your side too now, let's close this thread...")


----------



## Xanados (Jan 7, 2012)

fleamailman said:


> (and with that the thread had simply descended into chinese whispers now, where *those you didn't know made comments you didn't understand for others who weren't listening*, and where too, rape was holding in utter contempt that which one is forcing one's own self gratification upon, perhaps the newly arrived readers in this case, repeating "...surely, since you'll agree this is none of my business here, nor what readers would expect to find, and certainly nothing to do with this forum, it can either be continued within private PMs or transfered to a boiler-room type section, leaving those more interested is advancing their writing upon this forum to do so...", not that the goblin was against heated debate, just that he felt that doing it in the chit-chat section was going to show mythickscribes forum in a bad light since here was the first place that anyone new first looked, saying "...actually, I'm on your side if you would care to be on your side too now, let's close this thread...")



Just be quiet, will you?


----------

