# Are orcs over used?



## Geldor (Mar 12, 2014)

Throughout fantasy there has been a generic foe for the heroes to fight before the main antagonist, usually these are orcs. This seems to be the 'safe' option for many fantasy writers out there but whenever someone does try to leave this cliche cult then they're whipped for it unless they do it correctly, and few do! Whatsmore over the years   orcs have evolved in fantasy, from being the evil lackeys of Sauron in the Lord of the Rings with no emotion other than hate, to viewpoint characters of new novels that are heroic and morally good. I suppose my question is... are orcs overused and if so how could I change people's perception of them in my novel?


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## Edankyn (Mar 12, 2014)

Personally, I think they are overused in respect to being the bad guys. Specifically, I think they are overused in regards to being intellectually inferior hordes for a hero to chop his way through. I've only ever read two stories that presented Orcs in an equally intelligent or morally good light. I'm not sick of Orcs by any means, and I understand the value in having a staple bad guy for authors to use without having to bring the reader up to speed.

As far as setting it apart in your novel I think you've already mentioned two possible ways. Make them heroic or morally good. Even if a few stories have already broken the ground on this, it doesn't make it any less distinctive for any story you write. Alternatively, just giving them genuine intelligence could go a long way. Flesh out their societal structure, gender roles, religion. Many authors use Orcs so that they don't have to flesh them out, but taking the time to do that can alter the reader's perception a great deal. You can even use the basis that other authors have established and then simply build or alter from there.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 12, 2014)

If you must go with old-school warlike barbarian orcs, I second Edankyn's suggestion that you should make them intelligent. If they pose a genuine threat to your (presumably higher-tech) protagonists' culture, they ought to have _something _to compensate for their primitive technology. They could be cunning tacticians for instance.

That said, I prefer nobler or more sympathetic orcs myself.


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## Steerpike (Mar 12, 2014)

No.

Write a great novel, one that really engages the reader and makes them want to keep turning the page, and they'll be perfectly willing to go along with orcs, however you choose to characterize them.


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## McBeardstache the Hairy (Mar 12, 2014)

Orcs in my stories aren't necessarily evil, they just have their own warlike culture. Some orcs live in the cities among the humans and dwarves, and some loathe the very concept of civilization. Orcs are just another race for writers to apply attributes to, its up to you as the writer to decide which attributes go to whom.
And as Steerpike said, if you write it well, your readers will be happy to accept whatever you write.


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## Guy (Mar 12, 2014)

My favorite orcs, by far, were the ones in _Monster Hunter International_. I have evil critters in my world, but humans are far and away the meanest and most evil. I'm firmly convinced no being in all the plains of existence can match us for sheer depravity.


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## jasperjheart (Mar 12, 2014)

I think that you should make a sympathetic orc character, with a back story and a personality. An orc that was banished from his tribe because he had different views than his superiors. Then have him go on a quest for redemption, while also telling your main character's story. Could be cool.


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## Queshire (Mar 12, 2014)

Skipping the other posts in this thread 'cuz I don't want to see if I'm gonna be repeating what other people said. Now, it seems to me that you're really asking about two different things in the original post. 

1) The race of generic foes for the hero to slice through which Orcs are a common choice for, but could also be the likes of demons, goblins, werewolves, and so on.

2)Orcs as a race standing on their own. The potentially morally good Orcs / viewpoint of novel characters that you refer to.

This division makes me think of the TV tropes page on Orcs: Main/Our Orcs Are Different - Television Tropes & Idioms which divides Orcs into Tolkein Style orcs which fits the first category and Blizzard style Orcs which fit the second.

In reference to the first part, the generic foes for the heroes to cut through, I think that yes it can be done, however the average fantasy minion race tends to be pretty flat character-wise. I don't think that's enough to hold the interest of the average reader now a days, at least not as a center stage enemy. There's a sadly under rated manga that I love which features  golems as monsters for the heroes to fight, in essence serving in the role of our "Orcs" but the Golems aren't the focus of the main conflict. The fight with the Golems serves as a back drop to the conflict and interactions between the heroes, the big good, and the big bad and in that role they served admirably. I think other always chaotic evil races such as Tolkein Orcs can fit in really well in a similar role.

For the Orcs as a race with the same treatment as elves or dwarves, well they suffer from the same problems as elves or dwarves. There's people that think they're boring, cliche, stereotypical. People that swear off all established fantasy races and choose to invent their own. There's nothing wrong with going that route, but I like to take dwarves and elves, and, while keeping their core Elf-y-ness intact, reinvent them and make them fresh. For example my Orcs were magically bioengineered as a slave race to serve as foot soldiers and laborers for the Elves but have broken free and now established a culture that's based on equal parts of ancient Rome and feudal Japan. However I'm starting to consider basing the culture more on Genghis Khan than Rome / Japan to better fit the core Orc-y-ness.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 13, 2014)

It's a common fantasy race, but far less common than elves or dwarves. You're fine. They'd be more interesting if you don't follow the trend of making them culture-less mooks, but if you've got a good enough story, it's not the sort of trope that's going to cause groans of despair and putting the book down. At least not from most fantasy readers.


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## Devor (Mar 13, 2014)

Of course orcs are overused.  But so what?  Many people still enjoy them.

If somebody's going to read a book that has the word "orc" in its blurb, then believe me, you don't have to worry about changing their perception of what an orc is and whether it's overused.  In my opinion, if you want to use orcs, just go with it - find other ways to make your book your own.


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## skip.knox (Mar 14, 2014)

Echoing what others have said, I don't think it's a question of whether orcs (or any other tropes) are overused, it's a question of whether they are used poorly.


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## Wormtongue (Mar 14, 2014)

I don't use orcs.  To me orcs and hobbits belong in Middle Earth.

I'm more likely to use humans than anything else when it comes to hordes of evil creatures.  For smaller encounters trolls and ghouls are among my favorites.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 14, 2014)

Wormtongue said:


> I'm more likely to use humans than anything else when it comes to hordes of evil creatures.


Same here. Most of my conflicts pit humans against humans. They still tend to be "interracial" in that the warring human factions look physically different and come from different continents. For instance, I may have Africans fighting Middle Easterners, or Northern Europeans fighting Greco-Romans. Intercultural conflict pops up as a major theme in some of my stories.

That said, sometimes I feel guilty about having to make one culture the villainous aggressors. Whether or not it's realistic, I can see why some might interpret that as racist. On the other hand I prefer my stories to center on hero-vs-villain conflicts.


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## Wormtongue (Mar 14, 2014)

Jabrosky said:


> That said, sometimes I feel guilty about having to make one culture the villainous aggressors.



In my case the antagonist is orchestrating a war but the soldiers who fight on the "evil" side are no different than the soldiers on the "good" side.  The antagonist has simply duped them into believing the other side is evil.


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## Bruce McKnight (Mar 16, 2014)

If anything is overused, it's humans - they're in almost everything!

I'm a big fan of orcs, but, like anything else, they can be used poorly. Often then are just a nameless mass of evil creatures. Even if they are evil or bloodthirsty, give them some sort of motivation. Give them a war-demanding god, make them cannibals, send in a spaceship full of aliens that genetically modify them to be killing machines, but do something to explain why they are the way they are.

I think when authors use humans as the bad guys, they put a lot more thought into motivation, whereas it seems that when some of them use orcs, the only motivation they give them for anything is "they're orcs."


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## Ireth (Mar 16, 2014)

My orc-equivalents, the svartalfar, are not entirely a nameless horde. They are servants of an evil Lady who discovers a new world (Faerie), but first must eradicate its people. For this purpose She wages war on the Fae and their human allies. But not all of the svartalfar are interested in war. Most of them serve the Lady out of sheer fear, but there are some who rebel against Her in the hopes of gaining a better life elsewhere, whether because "any other life has to be better than this" or "I really just want to live in peace, but peace isn't an option with the Lady, so I might as well take the chance to leave." With probably a lot of overlap between the two.


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## Noma Galway (Mar 16, 2014)

Out of curiosity, weren't the svartalfar in Norse mythology the dwarves?


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## Ireth (Mar 16, 2014)

Noma Galway said:


> Out of curiosity, weren't the svartalfar in Norse mythology the dwarves?



There's a bit of overlap between them and the dokkalfar. To my knowledge, it's the dokkalfar who were closer to dwarves. I've always seen svartalfar as more akin to Drow, and that's basically what they're like in my book, at least in appearance. Altogether they're kind of a mishmash. Drowish coloration, elvish physique, dwarvish obligation to live underground, orcish brutality (in many but not all cases).


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## Noma Galway (Mar 16, 2014)

Okay. I was just curious, because I always heard it was the svartalfar who forged Brisingamen, so I thought they were the dwarves.


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## ThinkerX (Mar 16, 2014)

> That said, sometimes I feel guilty about having to make one culture the villainous aggressors. Whether or not it's realistic, I can see why some might interpret that as racist. On the other hand I prefer my stories to center on hero-vs-villain conflicts.



Which is why I made the goblins/hobgoblins of my worlds the way they are.  As presented in D&D and like gaming systems, orcs, goblins, and similar creatures are presented as automatically 'evil' with no real reason for them to be evil.  (Tolkien at least had them the servants / creations of what amounted to a evil god).

I wanted a race that would have a legit reason for acting aggressively without the 'just because' tag.  So, the goblins and hobgoblins of my worlds, while humanoid, have a very nonhuman internal anatomy.  

First off, they're hatched, in groups of up to a couple dozen, not born.

Second, male goblins / hobgoblins outnumber the females by a hundred to one - yet the impulse to breed is very strong among the males.

Hence, the male goblins / hobgoblins seek to eradicate internal competition for mates - making 'murder' not a crime in many gobliniod societies, AND seek to prove their own worthiness, which often means raiding or invading other communities, be they goblins, humans, or some other race.


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## Stephyn Blackwood (Jun 1, 2014)

The book series 'Orcs' by Stan Nicholls is a spectacular series of books, which follows an Orc warband named the Wolverines. I definitely felt that Orcs were overused to the point of death, until I read a synopsis of these books. It twists the typical stereotype or Orcs into something gripping and interesting. Yes, they are still vicious, yes they are still brutally efficient killing machines, but the characters are engaging, in-depth and everyone of them has reasons behind why they are the vicious killing machines that they are. Beautifully created, morally grey characters, that's my opinion on what Orcs should be.


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## Sir Kieran (Jun 1, 2014)

I too recommend reading _Orcs_ by Stan Nicholls. In my personal opinion, orcs are overused (although sometimes, authors just rename the orc race, a la the "Urgals" in the Inheritance Cycle). If you did include orcs, I think it would wise to portray them in an intelligent, morally ambiguous light. After a while, the image of a hulking, drooling, bloodthirsty orc gets old. Put a new spin on the race, and the readers will want to read more about them.


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## Jabrosky (Jun 1, 2014)

Let me third Nicholls' take on orcs. They're not too different from classic orcs (it's implied early on that they eat human infants, for instance), but they have enough redeeming qualities to distinguish them from the stereotype.


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## Terry Greer (Jun 1, 2014)

Yes.

(Can't say it more simply than that - but then so are elves and a host of other fantasy races).

That's not to say that they shouldn't be used, or that they can't be used well, but yes they are certainly overused.


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## Nagash (Jun 1, 2014)

I've been a huge fan of orcs ever since i played Warcraft I, and subsequently every single game of the franchise - Blizzard's version of the green fellas appeared as far more inspiring than Tolkien's (not criticizing here, but bipolar morality in middle-earth really didn't gave any room for sophistication and singularity amongst the orcs) and most of all, fascinating. Blizzard gave the orcs a culture, a social hierarchy, symbols, notorious leaders, legends, myths... Shamanism never felt so appealing.

I couldn't resist introducing orcs in my world; I went as far as possible from Tolkien's archetypal orc, shaping an intelligent race free from moral determinism. It felt like i was severing any possible ties with classical fantasy.


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## Queshire (Jun 1, 2014)

I've probably already mentioned this before the thread necromancy, but! One of my favorite things to do is to take a fantasy race such as Orc, isolate the key aspects that make them Orcs and while keeping those true warp and twist the rest into something interesting. That said though, I don't know what to do with Orcs in my latest setting. In it non-human races are referred to as Spirit Folk, alien beings who live on floating islands in the Mists (a sea of clouds that the human cities fly over, essentially their hell) with strange form and even stranger magics. If I included Orcs in there I would have to ramp up their strangeness. Let's see.... I think they'll have been engineered as disposable soldiers by some ancient civilization and now that their masters are gone they keep doing what they've always done; fight. They'd be closer to particularly bloodthirsty gorillas mentally engineered instincts causing them to use military tactics.


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## johnsonjoshuak (Jun 1, 2014)

I took Orcs, made some of them civilized (building cities, conducting business, etc) but maintained their militant nature through the institution of mercenary legions.


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## Hainted (Jun 2, 2014)

No, I like the mindless hordes in something like Warhammer, and I like the intelligent race like Elder Scrolls. My WIP makes them an intelligent race, with a short lifespan that causes them to be more impulsive, and wild than the longer lived races. More Modern Tribals, less mindless horde.


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## Angelic Randomness (Jun 3, 2014)

Orcs? 
I usually don't see them in the fantasy stories I read. Maybe I need to expand my collection of books again. I'll start by looking for this "Orcs" I just heard about. 

If there's one thing that I know, it's that people seem to like using elves (I'm guilty!) and dwarves more as the heroes. Orcs rarely ever get to be the heroes. They don't even get much time as minions either, as most heroes can just knock them out and move on.

Maybe I'll consider throwing in some orcs in the story I'm building right now. I'll make the ELVES the evil ones! Haha! 
Or maybe I'll just set up a conflict between elves and orcs. The orcs can win for a change, and I've been trying to figure out why the elvish princess' husband was kidnapped anyway....


Yeah, let's just move with the discussion. Nothing to see over here but an inspired writer.


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## Ireth (Jun 3, 2014)

I use svartalfar as equivalent to orcs in my WIP Tenth Realm, and I think I've done decently in making them stand apart from the Always Chaotic Evil trope. Helps that a few of them are viewpoint characters, so the reader sees their side of things, their desires and fears, etc. Many of them don't want to serve the main villain at all, and simply want to find a place they can live in peace and prosperity, without having to worry about the realm crashing down on them in an earthquake.


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## Scribble (Jun 3, 2014)

Stephyn Blackwood said:


> The book series 'Orcs' by Stan Nicholls is a spectacular series of books, which follows an Orc warband named the Wolverines. I definitely felt that Orcs were overused to the point of death, until I read a synopsis of these books. It twists the typical stereotype or Orcs into something gripping and interesting. Yes, they are still vicious, yes they are still brutally efficient killing machines, but the characters are engaging, in-depth and everyone of them has reasons behind why they are the vicious killing machines that they are. Beautifully created, morally grey characters, that's my opinion on what Orcs should be.



Thanks for the heads-up on Orcs. I'd like to read it for some inspiration on orc-culture. 

I have a story idea I've been toying with, gangs of orcs and other races trying to survive in the Dark City after the fall of the Dark Lord. They go from being the favored race among the non-humans to being hated for being the once-favorites, while having to contend with cruel and well-organized humans. They've become too urbanized to know how to survive in the wild as their ancestors did, so they cling to all they know, the city they were born into. This small band, under the leadership of a she-orc tries to hold on to their lives in this new age, as she tries to establish her identity and reconcile with her ancient tribal spirits.


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## Stephyn Blackwood (Sep 24, 2014)

In the idea of Orcs being overused, I'd say that as long as you put a twist on it, rather than using the same-old-same-old, then it should be interesting. Such as in my WIP I have Orcs, who have overthrown the humans, but are based off a mix of Roman and Greek cultures with the way they fight and the way their society is structured. The way I see it, is if your Orcs aren't the drooling, bloodthirsty monsters that Tolkien kinna made famous, then you should get on alright.


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## WooHooMan (Sep 24, 2014)

I'm fine with orcs as bloodthirsty monsters.  Because they're good at being bloodthirsty monsters.
Things don't need to be original to be good.

However, I also tend to be ok with most original takes on orcs.
I just like orcs, I guess.


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## WilliamD (Sep 24, 2014)

I would like to see the Orcs as friend and not just foe, I think it would be fairly interesting to see another side of them.


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## acapes (Sep 25, 2014)

I'll doubtless be repeating what others have said, but I think Orcs, Elves and Dwarves (and Dragons for that matter) are generally over-used in fantasy.

But I also think that doesn't matter. At all. 

So long as you write it well, it'll work just fine, Geldor - I reckon go for it, make them sympathetic or give them more dimension. Make them think they are heroes of their own sagas. Give them a role in the story where the reader isn't sure how much/how truly they will help/hinder your heroes perhaps.


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## D. Gray Warrior (Oct 3, 2014)

My world has Minotaurs as an alternative to orcs since it is a Greek- like setting. I want them to serve the same purpose as orcs, except they aren't really evil, just another shade of gray. They are a warrior culture, but they are not barbaric, either.


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## Gurkhal (Oct 5, 2014)

D. Gray Warrior said:


> My world has Minotaurs as an alternative to orcs since it is a Greek- like setting. I want them to serve the same purpose as orcs, except they aren't really evil, just another shade of gray. They are a warrior culture, but they are not barbaric, either.



Wouldn't that essentially make them non-Orcs? I mean, as far as I know the Orcs are pure evil without any redeming qualities at all in Tolkien's works which I take to be the one basis from which all other interpretations should start.

So by making them into grey characters and cultures, you are essentially making them to something which are not Orcs.

EDITED: At least that's what I think.


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## Devor (Oct 5, 2014)

Gurkhal said:


> Wouldn't that essentially make them non-Orcs? I mean, as far as I know the Orcs are pure evil without any redeming qualities at all in Tolkien's works which I take to be the one basis from which all other interpretations should start.



That's not accurate.  At the very least, orcs as characters are underexplored in Tolkein, and I think that is the reason that they've been used over and over again.  Tolkein knew who they were when he wrote about them.  They were slave warriors.  But to the casual reader, there's an unexplored mystery behind who they are and why they behave the way they do.  That mystery is their biggest appeal.


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## WooHooMan (Oct 5, 2014)

Devor said:


> That mystery is their biggest appeal.



I always thought their appeal was that they were a polar-opposite alternative to the Elves.  

Elves are uniformly pretty and kind of prissy.  They are favored by God himself (and the writer) and are the oldest and wisest people.
Orcs are kind of diverse in appearance and are totally brutal.  If you have the right mindset, that's fun.  Every once in a while, people like rooting for the villains.  Even when they're not the villains, they have an relatively unconventional look and a barbaric element to them.


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## Mythopoet (Oct 6, 2014)

WooHooMan said:


> I always thought their appeal was that they were a polar-opposite alternative to the Elves.
> 
> Elves are uniformly pretty and kind of prissy.  They are favored by God himself (and the writer) and are the oldest and wisest people.
> Orcs are kind of diverse in appearance and are totally brutal.  If you have the right mindset, that's fun.  Every once in a while, people like rooting for the villains.  Even when they're not the villains, they have an relatively unconventional look and a barbaric element to them.



I just.... always have to wonder if the Tolkien books I've read are the same as the ones everyone else has. I suppose the problem is that most people who have read LOTR haven't read The Silmarillion. But honestly, "uniformly pretty" and "prissy"? I just don't know where people get that impression from, unless it's the movies. (Curse Peter Jackson!) Elves are not "favored" by God over Men, though probably over Dwarves. Both Elves and Men are the "Children of Illuvatar". They are different, but neither is meant to be "better" than the other. People tend to view the "immortality" of the Elves as making them "better" but that isn't the case. In fact, mortality is called the "Gift of Men". And it was the envy of that immortality among certain Men that led to much death and suffering and the destruction of Numenor. 

And orcs are not the "polar opposite" of Elves. They are a corruption of Elves and Men on an essential level. That is part of the terror of Sauron. Those armies of orcs and half-orcs are the future for any people that falls under his dominion.


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## WooHooMan (Oct 6, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> I just.... always have to wonder if the Tolkien books I've read are the same as the ones everyone else has. I suppose the problem is that most people who have read LOTR haven't read The Silmarillion. But honestly, "uniformly pretty" and "prissy"? I just don't know where people get that impression from, unless it's the movies. (Curse Peter Jackson!) Elves are not "favored" by God over Men, though probably over Dwarves. Both Elves and Men are the "Children of Illuvatar". They are different, but neither is meant to be "better" than the other. People tend to view the "immortality" of the Elves as making them "better" but that isn't the case. In fact, mortality is called the "Gift of Men". And it was the envy of that immortality among certain Men that led to much death and suffering and the destruction of Numenor.
> 
> And orcs are not the "polar opposite" of Elves. They are a corruption of Elves and Men on an essential level. That is part of the terror of Sauron. Those armies of orcs and half-orcs are the future for any people that falls under his dominion.



I have read the Silmarillion.  Or rather, I've read the "History of Middle-Earth" set.  Even casual Tolkien readers probably know that Tolkien's Elves weren't all prissy or how Orcs are corrupted Elves/Men.

I was talking about the average person's perception of Elves and Orcs -  be they Tolkien-created or Tolkien-influenced.  I could have just as easily been talking about the races of Dungeon & Dragons or whatever.  I was trying to keep it broad.

What I was trying to get across is that Orcs are the "bad guys" and sometimes people like rooting for the bad guys.
Elves, on the other hand, are the "good guys".  As such, you can see Orcs as an opposite to Elves.  In Middle-Earth, Orcs also happen to be an opposite to Men and Dwarves.  I just used Elves in my explanation because portrayals of Elves in fiction tend to be as formulaic (for lack of a better word) as portrayals of Orcs.  And the formula for Elves tend to be "pretty and prissy".


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## SeverinR (Oct 7, 2014)

My orcs are the Klingons of fantasy. They are a war tribe, only the strongest leads, but that doesn't mean they are stupid.
But if they were overly inteligent they would be more of a threat to civilized society.  Part of their weakness is distrust of other bands of orcs, so banding a group of orcs together would be tough and very limited.
Remember the toughest are looking to move up in ranks, they don't want to compete with another tribe of orcs to do so.

The nomad nature and continued fighting to gain rank limits the power of the orcs. My orcs are the Vikings and nomad indians of history. They depend on raiding and pillaging to survive. War wounds add up and conituous moving is hard on the babies.
They are very smart in the martial arts.  Thus they are not stupid enough to trust their lives to a rusty sword.


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## Bearman1 (Oct 8, 2014)

Something I would like to see in a story are orcs that are genuinely scary. Almost all books I have read the orcs are fairly useless, only posing a threat in large numbers or against characters who cannot defend themselves. Considering most orc cultures are centred around fighting and war I find it frustrating that the heroes normally easily defeat them. 

So i would say if you are going to use orcs in your novel try and make them a fearful force. Just an idea to make them a bit refreshing


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## Mythopoet (Oct 8, 2014)

Bearman1 said:


> Something I would like to see in a story are orcs that are genuinely scary.



For what it's worth, I was terrified during the "drums, drums in the deep" part of LOTR when I first read it.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 8, 2014)

Bearman1 said:


> Something I would like to see in a story are orcs that are genuinely scary. Almost all books I have read the orcs are fairly useless, only posing a threat in large numbers or against characters who cannot defend themselves. Considering most orc cultures are centred around fighting and war I find it frustrating that the heroes normally easily defeat them.


Funny you say that, for I always imagined orcs as physically bigger and stronger than humans. I don't base this image off any existing mythos like Tolkien or Warcraft, but instead figured that a race of fierce barbarian warriors would need an advantage in brute strength to compensate for their more primitive technology.

Now that I think about it, if orcs are indeed formidable warriors in their own right, might certain nations find them handy as mercenaries? The Romans would hire Northern European tribesmen for that purpose, just as the Egyptians before them hired Sea People and the Sudanese Medjay. I recall the orcs in Stan Nicholls' books are almost like mercenaries for the villain, but it would be interesting to see orcish mercenaries working for the stereotypically "nobler" races.


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## WooHooMan (Oct 8, 2014)

Jabrosky said:


> Funny you say that, for I always imagined orcs as physically bigger and stronger than humans. I don't base this image off any existing mythos like Tolkien or Warcraft, but instead figured that a race of fierce barbarian warriors would need an advantage in brute strength to compensate for their more primitive technology.
> 
> Now that I think about it, if orcs are indeed formidable warriors in their own right, might certain nations find them handy as mercenaries? The Romans would hire Northern European tribesmen for that purpose, just as the Egyptians before them hired Sea People and the Sudanese Medjay. I recall the orcs in Stan Nicholls' books are almost like mercenaries for the villain, but it would be interesting to see orcish mercenaries working for the stereotypically "nobler" races.



I think this was the thought process of the Elder Scrolls' orcs.
They're an interesting case: they started-out as Elves, were "cursed" and turned into traditional orc-monsters, then became a respectable and well-integrated warrior race because the Roman-esque Empire was impressed with their martial prowess.  Now, despite their traditionalist/barbaric attitude, they're one of the most well-integrated races in the setting.

While we're on the subject of big, tough orcs: does anyone see a difference between orcs and ogres?
As far as I can tell, Tolkien invented the word "orc" as a fictional root word for ogre so I kind of wonder if you can call them either or and have it not make any difference in how the audience sees them.


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## ThinkerX (Oct 9, 2014)

> Something I would like to see in a story are orcs that are genuinely scary. Almost all books I have read the orcs are fairly useless, only posing a threat in large numbers or against characters who cannot defend themselves. Considering most orc cultures are centred around fighting and war I find it frustrating that the heroes normally easily defeat them.
> 
> So i would say if you are going to use orcs in your novel try and make them a fearful force. Just an idea to make them a bit refreshing



I have something like this going in my world, though its goblins and hobgoblins rather than orcs (I decided orcs were too closely linked to Tolkien and AD&D).

The goblins of my world(s) are short, fairly wimpy creatures.  Put a normal human up against a normal goblin, same weapons and armor, and there's a better than even chance the human will win.   Goblins are mostly sneaks and scavengers.  In larger groups...well...'organized mob' or 'well drilled militia' about sums it up.

Hobgoblins, though, are much bigger, tougher, and stronger than goblins...and most humans.  Match an ordinary hobgoblin against an ordinary human, same weapons and armor, and odds are the hobgoblin will come out on top.  Plus their military units tend to be very well trained and organized, comparable to the old roman legions.   

My Toki / Hock-Nar stories (appearing mostly in the 'Iron Pen' Challenges in the 'Challenge' sub-forum) chronicle some of the exploits of a petty human mage soul bound to a hobgoblin warrior.


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## George Lightgood (Oct 9, 2014)

Edankyn said:


> Personally, I think they are overused in respect to being the bad guys...



I agree. Orcs have been around a long time, obviously playing fundamental roles in Tolkien's work, if not before. It seems that they have become a clichÃ© stock character much like the hard-boiled and world weary detective or the hooker with the heart of gold or the Russian spy. Of course, one could make the same argument about vampires, for example. 

Any of them, though, redone with enough imagination or a unique twist can render an old thing new again. The writing style and skill level notwithstanding, Twilight is an example of a unique twist on a very worn out cliche character. Wait a minute...what about an Orc in love, with a vampire, in a high school in Nebraska?


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## WooHooMan (Oct 9, 2014)

ThinkerX said:


> I have something like this going in my world, though its goblins and hobgoblins rather than orcs (I decided orcs were too closely linked to Tolkien and AD&D).
> 
> The goblins of my world(s) are short, fairly wimpy creatures.  Put a normal human up against a normal goblin, same weapons and armor, and there's a better than even chance the human will win.   Goblins are mostly sneaks and scavengers.  In larger groups...well...'organized mob' or 'well drilled militia' about sums it up.
> 
> Hobgoblins, though, are much bigger, tougher, and stronger than goblins...and most humans.  Match an ordinary hobgoblin against an ordinary human, same weapons and armor, and odds are the hobgoblin will come out on top.  Plus their military units tend to be very well trained and organized, comparable to the old roman legions.



I think that's a pretty cool idea.  Gives a little diversity to the race.  I actually think the Troll-Ogre-Orc-Goblin-Hobgoblin race family is an interesting convention of fantasy that more writers should try exploring.
In fact, I'm doing something similar but with ogres and goblins.  In that setting, Ogres and Goblins are sometimes collectively called "Orcs".  Hobgoblins are also there but they don't usually count since they have their own culture.

Also, did you know that the prefix "hob" generally denotes smallness.  Hence "Hobbit".  In mythology, Hobgoblins were always depicted as tiny, even compared to Goblins.  I'm not saying it's wrong that they're portrayed as taller in modern fantasy; I just think it's interesting how the defining characteristic of a Hobgoblin has completely changed.
I think it just goes to show the roots of a fantasy race (be they folklore or a single writer) doesn't matter as much as how people use them.



George Lightgood said:


> what about an Orc in love, with a vampire, in a high school in Nebraska?



I'd read it


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## Warrioress (Oct 19, 2014)

I think orcs can be over used especially if they are the MAIN foe in a story as in my opinion that had already been done in LOTR. 
If they are used sparingly i think they can be effective.


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## Schwarzseher (Sep 29, 2022)

Geldor said:


> a generic foe for the heroes to fight before the main antagonist, usually these are orcs. This seems to be the 'safe' option for many fantasy writers out there but whenever someone does try to leave this cliche cult then they're whipped for it unless they do it correctly, and few do! Whatsmore over the years   orcs have evolved in fantasy, from being the evil lackeys of Sauron in the Lord of the Rings with no emotion other than hate, to viewpoint characters of new novels that are heroic and morally good. I suppose my question is... are orcs overused and if so how could I change people's perception of them in my novel?


Why should a "generic foe" not be "heroic and morally good"? 
Your Orcs might be fiersome, even cruel warriors. But they still can adhere to complex ethics within their own society. Such ethics are not necessarily applied to the Orcs' enemies. Why should they after all?

Such a "neutral" setting allows you to explore. The Orcs might fight for perfectly viable reasons: They might live under harsh conditions, maybe they are nomads. Suddenly some farmers start to build fences at the Orcs' ancient hunting grounds or pastures. At the same time, the farmers' actions are perfectly justified as well: They need that land to feed themselves too.
Figuratively: The deer considers the wolf to be evil, for he kills his kin. The hungry puppy has a different perspective. It thinks that its parents, that aunts and uncles are "heroic and morally good".

Both sides having moral values also allows them to take the perspective of the adversary. They might realise that they are not as different as they initially thought. There might be some situations where they keep a brief peace, where they might even show compassion for the foe. Like in WW1 when British and German soldiers celebrated Christmas together. But they were parts of a machinery way larger than themselves. Thus they had to to kill each other one day later. 

In your scenario, an Orc and a human might develop respect and friendship. But they still might need to fight each other in the next battle. You canestablish an ethical conflict by this: The positive value of friendship vs. the positive value loyalty to one's own kin. Such a "tragic conflict" has depth, it is emotionally and philosophically challenging for the reader - in contrast to the shallow, or rather empty "good guys vs. bad guys"...


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## pmmg (Sep 29, 2022)

Generic foe, I would use, Orcs...no. They belong to Tolkien.

As for why...well, they can be anything that suits. Sometimes it is just useful, or allows for some type of discovery to have them be depraved. I suppose the question I would ask is, do the generic foe love their children too? If the answer is no because they dont have children and are raised out of muck pits instead...go ahead and call em evil


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## Devor (Sep 29, 2022)

One issue I have is that just the idea of a fantasy race, "like a human but also...", screams Tolkein and D&D and the like.  Having an "evil" race of pigmen instead of orcs is not more creative or a way to stand out.  It's a surface difference.  It's still a very Tolkeinesque idea.  _Your_ version of Middle(-Ages) Earth has a slightly different group of races.  It's not groundbreaking.  So if you like orcs, just use them. That's not the question that matters.

I've got orcs, elves and dwarves in Smughitter, but, those kinds of fantasy races aren't the point. They're there for tertiary reasons. I don't want to take the time to introduce a new "Slackmarr" pigpeople race to fill the role if I'm not going to take the time to explore them.


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## pmmg (Sep 29, 2022)

Whether they are or they are not, it does seems Orcs have entered the public domain, but still... If you are going to have a fantasy race that is not orcs, it does compel one to show why they are different. It is a regret of my early tales that I used elves and such. I wish now that I had not, and just used men. But....that world is shaped now. Are those baddies Orcs? certainly not. They dont come from much, or twisted elves, and they dont look like pigs.


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## Miles Lacey (Oct 9, 2022)

It's true that orcs are over used but the same could be said of dwarves, elves, werewolves, vampires, witches, wizards, mages and dragons.  That's because there's not a lot of effort put into changing the roles these races play.  (Too many D & D and Tolkien fans among fantasy writers in my opinion.  

It's up to writers as to how they use orcs.  In my work in progress orcs don't exist because my work in progress is being written in the style of a 1930s-style pulp fiction smutty adventure story set in a maritime tropical environment.  Orcs, smuttiness and the tropics just don't do it for me I'm afraid.

However, I could picture them as seafarers.  I could also see them scattered in ports around the world working as ship builders, merchants, warehouse owners and workers, gangsters (Mafia rather than MS-13) and tavern and bar owners.  Orcish fishmongers and fishermen would be a fearsome sight indeed.  And I'm convinced that orcs singing sea shanties would sound much better.


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## buyjupiter (Oct 9, 2022)

I'm using orcs as police constables in my murder mystery. Mostly because they're strong & strength may be needed in their line of work. I also like that they're neither good nor bad, they just exist in my world like any other creature.


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## Aldarion (Oct 10, 2022)

I'd say that _Tolkienian_ orcs are overused, although they seem to be overtaken by Warhammerian orcs recently. But orcs themselves are not a problem, problem is that modern fantasy writers all too often take things from Big Bag of Fantasy Tropes, or directly from other fantasy writers, rather than going to the source - history and mythology.


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## Queshire (Oct 10, 2022)

...
...
...
What's the history and mythology of Orcs? Seems to be just standard evil bugaboos with the word coming from Orcus of all things.


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## pmmg (Oct 10, 2022)

How can orcs be overused? Cant they be as wide and varied as any other race? Dont all stories really center around the human condition, and dont these just bring something new to it? Orcs are juts a thing, no different than swords, and horses, and draw bridges. Use when needed. 

Tolkien created orcs out of Orcneas, a creature briefly mentioned in the story of Beowulf. Everything after is a mutation of that. D&D added the Orcus factor.

I dont know if orcs are in the public domain, but it seems like it would be useless to try to prevent them at this point. Since Tolkien created orcs, I think to be a true orc, one must be formed of fallen elves, or in a muck pit. Orcs of the Dungeons and Dragons variety with females and little orc children and little orc villages are probably something different from orcs, but no one will complain anymore.


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## Aldarion (Oct 10, 2022)

Queshire said:


> ...
> ...
> ...
> What's the history and mythology of Orcs? Seems to be just standard evil bugaboos with the word coming from Orcus of all things.


Basically, Orcs would be low-level demons to my understanding. We have a lot of orc-like races in the mythology, even if most of them aren't _called_ orcs.


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## Prince of Spires (Oct 11, 2022)

Are orcs really overused in modern fantasy stories though?

I'm looking around at my bookshelves, and there are very few modern (as in published the last 15-20 years) fantasy stories on there with orcs in them. Most fantasy writers shy away from any races other than humans in them. You find them in Eragon, but the whole point of that story was basically to blend all fantasy tropes together. You'll find them in Warhammer fiction novels, though those come from lore developed in the 80's, so they don't really count as modern. R. Scott Baker uses something like an orc with a different name, and very different characteristics. Other than that, I'm sure there are a few, but that hardly counts as being overused. 

They're very common in RPG video games, and in D&D like RPGs. They're stereotypical in those, but that their whole point, same as all the other races. So no, in my opinion orcs are not overused at all.


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