# Swearing in writing.



## Aidan of the tavern (Feb 19, 2015)

Good morning dear Scribes. 

Bad language is an interesting topic when it comes to fiction, on the one hand it can be a touchy subject for some, but can also be an effective tool for characterisation.  Firstly as a reader does it make any difference to you if a book includes swearing?  If used strategically I think it can be great for adding emphasis or shock value, or even just a human element to a character.  As a writer do you use swearing in your work, and if so what is your criteria for what to use?  Obviously much fantasy is full of mostly harmless curses like "by the gods!" and "[someone's] blood!", or if you really want to play it safe simply "she turned and cursed angrily".  Do you ever make up swearwords?  Generally in my work I include a few select curses from our world based on how well I feel they would work in the setting, for example my characters tend to say sh** and various insults beginning with B, but I never use the F word simply because I don't feel it would fit, maybe because its so popular today.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 19, 2015)

Swearing doesn't bother me at all.

Yes, I use swear words if they fit the character and are relevant to the moment.

I don't think I've ever made up swear words.

I'll use modern swear words if they feel right. Some of those words have been around longer than you might think.


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## Russ (Feb 19, 2015)

I think the taboo against swearwords in fiction is dropping away.  I have no problem with characters swearing like a sailor (particularly if they are a sailor) as long as it fits the milieu.  

Researching foreign or historical curses can be a lot of fun.


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## Fyle (Feb 19, 2015)

Swearing is a great tool to show personality and different mannerisms between characters.

I have a notes on who swears a lot, a little and never. 

Plus, A Song of Ice and Fire has swear words so, thats a positive sign. The 15+ million people who bought it apparently didnt mind. 

Exellant Bilbo Baggins quote by the way, its like the best line ever that confuses you and makes sense all at the same time.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Feb 19, 2015)

Thanks Fyle . 

I agree that it can do a lot for characterisation, I don't know if any of you have read Andrzej Sapkowski's work, but I think he does it really well.  There's a wonderful line in Blood of Elves where one character (I think its Triss Merigold) kicks a stool into a door with an exclamation of "pox, plague, shit and leprosy!".


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## KC Trae Becker (Feb 19, 2015)

I feel that the age level you are writing for has to be taken into consideration. (middle grade, YA, adult)

Fantasy does tend to reach all ages, but the primary target audience still has a big impact on word choice and how ideas and more mature issues are presented.


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## Svrtnsse (Feb 19, 2015)

I'm using the F word once in my WiP - in a conversation/argument towards the end of the book. I feel that since I've mostly stayed away from anything like that for most of the story, it adds a little extra gravity to it when it eventually does show up.


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## Tom (Feb 19, 2015)

I only use minor swear words, and only rarely, but that's only because most of my writing is targeted to a YA audience. I've written a few dark fantasy stories, though, and since they have a grittier, more mature style, I feel I have more free rein to include swearing.


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## Feo Takahari (Feb 19, 2015)

I tend to paraphrase, e.g. "X cursed." I only use a swear stronger than "Hell" if I really want to emphasize and give force to what they're saying. (I consider it similar to my approach to violence--I reserve the real blood and pain for when I want an impact.)


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## Laurence (Feb 19, 2015)

I'm a hobby writer so will include any stupid words I see fit. My story isn't particularly dark but I'm prone to a fair bit of swearing in real life and I think it enriches relationships - provided the reader is clued up on the private jokes beforehand. 

A good example of this would be having your protagonist calling the antagonist a word that he doesn't understand but the reader does.


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## Chessie (Feb 19, 2015)

I use swear words on a limited basis. I prefer not to...but it really depends on the character, the mood they're in, and whether or not its appropriate to what's happening in the scene. Irl its a habit I'm trying to break away from, and in my writing I would like to stay away from alienating readers with foul language. I don't mind swear words in the books I read unless they are excessive. 

One urban fantasy book comes to mind which had an insane amount of them (like, several swear words per paragraph at times) and was very vulgar. Now, had it moved the story along it wouldn't have bothered me but I felt it was written for shock value and felt out of place. I hated that book.

Comparing it to other fantasy stories I've read with swear words here and there that didn't bother me at all, I'd say that overdoing it is possible and that's really up to the author to decide what's the line for him/her. Same goes for readers.


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## Ruby (Feb 19, 2015)

Hi Aidan of the tavern,
I suppose it depends on who your readership is. I'm writing MG/YA so swearing is inappropriate.


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## Saigonnus (Feb 19, 2015)

Ruby said:


> Hi Aidan of the tavern,
> I suppose it depends on who your readership is. I'm writing MG/YA so swearing is inappropriate.



As a teacher, I have to say in this day and age, most young adults swear like sailors, and most even know what the words mean... But I seriously doubt a book using the f-word in every other sentence would have much popularity among parents or publishers of the genre. For sake of decorum I would say you shouldn't include them for young adult readers. 

For adults or "Normal" fantasy or science fiction, I think it is a legitimate way for characters to express their emotional state or frustration with the situation they are in... Or just to get their point across. I have a short I have beeen working on about an ex-soldier thrown into a situation where he has to become the soldier again to accomplish his goals. He isn't particularly vulgar, but there are times when I believe it warranted. Like hiding behind a wall during a firefight and suddenly a grenade arcs over it and lands close by... The F word would certainly add emphasis to the situation as he scrambles to get out of range. 

If you don't want to use profanity but the character is particularly vulgar, then perhaps consider making up phrases that are "considered" to be vulgarities in your world, but are kind of silly in ours. Robert Jordan tended towards this with his whole "bleeding buttered onions" that singed Nynaeve's ears... Lol


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## skip.knox (Feb 19, 2015)

I'm with T.Allen.Smith on this one. I avoid certain obscenities because they feel modern to me. It's not the obscenity that bothers, it's the anachronism.

My model for this is Patrick O'Brian, who does a masterful job of swearing. Specifically, he has cursing appropriate not only to the era, but also to the social standing of the person speaking, *and* appropriate to the situation. Officers swear differently than do common sailors, but even common sailors swear differently to each other than they would to, say, a well-born woman.

GRRM, imo, does not do this so deftly.


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## Penpilot (Feb 19, 2015)

I say this a lot but it's all in the style and type of story you're telling. I wrote a urban fantasy with lost of F-bombs. When I write fantasy, I tend to make up phrases that equate to cursing.

But there's no thing wrong with having F-bombs in fantasy. Scott Lynch used plenty of them in his Gentlemen Bastard series, and it's quite effective and humorous. The series deals with conmen and having them drop F-bombs and Sh!t feels very natural.


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## Feo Takahari (Feb 20, 2015)

Saigonnus said:


> If you don't want to use profanity but the character is particularly vulgar, then perhaps consider making up phrases that are "considered" to be vulgarities in your world, but are kind of silly in ours. Robert Jordan tended towards this with his whole "bleeding buttered onions" that singed Nynaeve's ears... Lol



Or you can just use real ones. The protagonist of _Fever 1793_ shocks most of the people around her because she says "Dash it all" a lot.


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## Snikt5 (Feb 20, 2015)

I agree with everything that has been said. Profanity has its place if it fits the character speaking. I try not to use it too casually although my first book did have a minor character called "Ucking Alan," who was labelled that because of his excessive use of "F-word."

Making up phrases helps create the world your character's live in as well. "By the Tri-moons" and "Gloom's sake" are frequent curse phrases in my book, whilst some regions use more specific phrases such as, "Roast placenta." (You will just have to read the book to find out why).

I am no expert but I think the trick is not to overuse the made-up phrases and force them upon the reader. They should occur naturally and feel organically part of the world.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Feb 20, 2015)

skip.knox said:


> I'm with T.Allen.Smith on this one. I avoid certain obscenities because they feel modern to me. It's not the obscenity that bothers, it's the anachronism.
> 
> My model for this is Patrick O'Brian, who does a masterful job of swearing. Specifically, he has cursing appropriate not only to the era, but also to the social standing of the person speaking, *and* appropriate to the situation. Officers swear differently than do common sailors, but even common sailors swear differently to each other than they would to, say, a well-born woman.
> 
> GRRM, imo, does not do this so deftly.



Yes fitting in is pretty much my approach.  I have been trying to invent a substitute for the f-bomb to be a bit more world-specific, but its difficult to come up with one without sounding corny.  I must read Patrick O'Brian, I have loads of his books on my shelf and haven't started them yet.


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## Tom (Feb 20, 2015)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> I have been trying to invent a substitute for the f-bomb to be a bit more world-specific, but its difficult to come up with one without sounding corny.



For the love of all that is good, please just don't make it "Fug." Norman Mailer tried that one. It didn't go well.


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## Saigonnus (Feb 20, 2015)

skip.knox said:


> I'm with T.Allen.Smith on this one. I avoid certain obscenities because they feel modern to me. It's not the obscenity that bothers, it's the anachronism.



Most of the words we use as profanity actually come from middle english, 15th and 16th century, perfect for the fantasy time-frame so to speak. I don't find it particularly anachronistic for that reason. I could see it being something we use here on earth, while on Aern it is something else. I never use it in my fantasy story at all but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a place in literature.


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## Ayaka Di'rutia (Feb 21, 2015)

I find explicit swearing used in the real world and put into a fictional setting to be distracting, crude, and vulgar.  I also find it as a writer to be distasteful in presenting a story to the reader (especially the F-bomb and be-otch).  If a book has too much swearing of that sort in it, I'll put it down, if not throw it away.

I do use non-explicit swearing to humanize characters (they cursed, swore, etc.), and I will make up curses that are relative to the world they live in, but never do I use "our" swearing or misuse deity names sacred to me in my fiction.  Like I said, it's distracting and annoying, especially in a fantasy setting.


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## Gryphos (Feb 22, 2015)

In my work I use the standard ones, f*ck, shit and so on. But I try to keep it fairly minimal, just so it has a but more impact when it is used.

On a related note, I've found that you can basically come up with any insult just by combining a noun with an already rude word or concept. For example: toss-bucket, wank-canvas, dragon-cunt. (Although, usually these do work better with 'f*cking' inserted on the front). The possibilities are endless!


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## The Dark One (Feb 27, 2015)

How many times has this topic been discussed?

Two things interest me about swearing - why is it that people think that writing a **** is somehow gentler than writing ****? You instantly recognise it for what it really is, so what's the difference?

The other is this - it's always seemed to me that there is an intra generational conspiracy happening re swearing. In my experience, most kids swear, but are really careful to hide it from adults. At the same time, most adults swear, but are really careful to hide it from kids. Fascinating! The only time you see adults and kids swearing freely in front of each other seems to be in really dysfunctional communities.  In more civilised communities, the conspiracy is strictly observed by both generations.


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## The Dark One (Feb 27, 2015)

I note my post has been censored, which possibly explains the proliferation of ***** on this site.


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## Fyle (Feb 27, 2015)

Gryphos said:


> In my work I use the standard ones, f*ck, shit and so on. But I try to keep it fairly minimal, just so it has a but more impact when it is used.



This sounds right. 

Especially when a character who doesnt usually swear does.


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## Gryphos (Feb 27, 2015)

The Dark One said:


> I note my post has been censored, which possibly explains the proliferation of ***** on this site.



Yup. Trust me, anytime it won't get censored, I always spell it ****


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## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 27, 2015)

In regard to censoring:

Keep in mind, Mythic Scribes is a family friendly site. There are minors who are members.

An easy approach is thinking of a thread like a PG-13 movie. A word like we're discussing won't usually be censored if there's one or two within a thread. However, too many uses of bad language would raise the rating to R. In that case, your post will be censored to drop it back to PG-13.

If you were to post an excerpt of writing, and don't want it censored, inform the potential reader of any explicit language or action before the prose begins.

I hope that helps your understanding.

Directly from the site guidelines (They may be found under News & Announcements):


> 1. Prohibited Behaviors
> 
> In order to ensure the best possible experience for our members, the following behaviors are prohibited:
> 
> ...


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## skip.knox (Feb 27, 2015)

Note there are interesting cultural differences in cursing. I remember this from one of Harry Turtledove's novels. He has a French Canadian observe that while Americans use bodily functions (including sex) as primary cursing, the French prefer to use the deity (the whole Trinity) and saints. Given that observation, I do try to pay some attention to how swearing works between fantasy races. Using the same vernacular for all of them feels to easy.

Our very terms are interesting. Cursing? But rarely are we actually placing a curse on someone. Swearing? Not as in swearing an oath. We need a verb form for "obscene" to get closer to how we actually use those words.


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## Tom (Feb 27, 2015)

Huh, I noticed that difference as well, among my Irish and German relatives. The Irish side of the family uses religious curses, while the German side uses the usual body-oriented swearing. Perhaps it's because a lot of our modern English swear words came from the Angle-Saxons?


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## stephenspower (Feb 27, 2015)

I would beg you not to do what Julian May did in otherwise wonderful Golden Torc series: use for the strongest profanity "fewking." Either go big or go home, I thought. What she did was fewking lame.

I love the idea of cultural based obscenity because of how deftly it could tell you about a culture. I'm reading "The Three-Body Problem" and there an f-word in there and it just sounded weird. Do the Chinese really use the f-word? I really wanted to know if the original was different and the f-word is just the closest English equivalent. (Just wrote him via Twitter. He couldn't remember exactly, but thought it was probably the equivalent.)


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## Penpilot (Feb 27, 2015)

stephenspower said:


> Do the Chinese really use the f-word? I really wanted to know if the original was different and the f-word is just the closest English equivalent. (Just wrote him via Twitter. He couldn't remember exactly, but thought it was probably the equivalent.)



My Chinese isn't that great, but I know there is a Chinese expression that literally translates to F-U. But it's not uncommon for literal translations to be really weird or not work at all. For example, the act of oral sex, if literally translated, is "to hit a plane". I'm sure there's probably an older expression/word for it, but that's the word I've most commonly heard.

Edit: To add a little more, I came across this wiki article on Cantonese swearing. Cantonese profanity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## stephenspower (Feb 27, 2015)

I am totally working these words and phrases secretly into stories.

The "Outstanding Five in Cantonese" would be a great name for a band.


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## Penpilot (Feb 27, 2015)

stephenspower said:


> I am totally working these words and phrases secretly into stories.
> 
> The "Outstanding Five in Cantonese" would be a great name for a band.



Either that or the Chinese Knock-off version of Big Hero 6


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## Helen (Mar 3, 2015)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> As a writer do you use swearing in your work, and if so what is your criteria for what to use?



I don't believe in writing scared, so swearing is OK in my book.

Then again, I personally try to avoid it, and think of better ways to express it. Also, I think too much swearing lessens the impact, so I'll try to use it sparsely.


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## Svrtnsse (Mar 4, 2015)

I've now had two of my beta readers pass the section of my book in which the F word appears (it only appears once in the entire story (150k words)). One of them didn't mention it at all. The other one was REALLY bothered by it. 

She wasn't bothered by the word in itself. I know her well and she swears worse than a sailor in real life. Still, she reacted strongly to it. This may be because it jolted her out of the story, or because it simply didn't fit. She did devote a fair few sentences of commentary trying to figure out why though.
In this case, I'm convinced it's not the F word in itself that's the problem, but rather than it just doesn't fit in with the story.


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## Reilith (Mar 12, 2015)

What I find is that in general with books I don't have problems with reading profanities. Sometimes they fit and sometimes they don't. I think it is a good way to try to make up a word in a language that simply entered constant use so we can grasp the point of the 'swearing' but without an actual swear word. "Shtako" from the sci-fi show 'Defiance' comes to mind which was used instead of s*it. There were some other examples that I can't currently remember.
In my own writing I tend to keep it simple and void of use of heavy swearing. S*it is okay in my book, but general intercourse-depicting phrases are a bit too much for me. I also remembered Terry Goodkind's use of 'bags' instead of one word swears which I found hilarious. And there is always those mild ones, usually insulting a character's intelligence which are fairly common and bland in our world. For some more intelligent or high-born characters I will probably make use of their broader vocabulary thus making them insult with big, confusing, scary words that a simpler character might not understand. And sarcasm is always an easy way to go.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 12, 2015)

swearing speaks to a character, a situation, and a setting.  I use it whenever I feel like it's deserved and try not to throw random words anywhere, whether harmless or curses.


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## Clinton Seeber (Mar 15, 2015)

My epic fantasy series that I am writing has a hero from modern-day California that is a guitar player and a drug addict(a hero called to another like in Stephen R. Donaldson's TC books). He says "shit" once late in the first book and "bitch" a couple of times. Early in the book, he even says "Holy crap!". I also have another character use the word "whore" at one point.


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## PS Extraordinary Tales (Mar 15, 2015)

Helen said:


> I don't believe in writing scared, so swearing is OK in my book.



I really dig that train of thought. I often feel a compulsion to alter my writing in accordance with what I think would be more popular, rather than what I personally would like. I try to suppress that urge, since I figure it probably doesn't make for the best writing.

That said, my characters swear exactly as much as I believe is appropriate for their character. Usually this ends up not being a whole lot, since I find bursting into profanity a rather annoying trait for a person to have.


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## Scalvi (Mar 16, 2015)

I make up my own expletives from time to time, just as a worldbuilding excersize most of the time. I will add them because people curse but I don't think I've ever used all of them.

I love making up language and I frequently write fantasy or occasionally sci-fi so there is leeway to make up stuff in accordance with a shift in culture.


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## TheCatholicCrow (Mar 16, 2015)

I really like the idea of looking at other cultural forms of swearing/obscenities

In Spanish "Puta Madre" technically means your mom's a beyotch but it's used more or less the same as you would SOB

Some cultures have a tendency to not only include bodily emphasis but also connect it to animals.... things like "screw a pig" or "ride a donkey", "you're mom's a cow", "monkey sh!t", etc. this works best with animals that are considered particularly dirty or are associated with the lower class/peasantry who keep them (farm animals give rise to sayings like "chicken sh!t" + variations of the ones above).

In addition to offensive language you might also consider offensive gestures (flipping someone off, biting your thumb, the iconic Italian gestures, the British index & middle finger [similar to peace sign], sign language hand under chin etc.) ... or even just sticking a tongue out which is a more juvenile but also irritating approach which basically expresses the same sentiments.


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## joshwolf (Mar 16, 2015)

When I'm writing urban fantasy, I tend to have characters who swear A LOT, probably because I grew up around people who cursed without thinking about it. I usually pare it way down in revision. Less is more. I also find it's useful to have only one or two characters who use really colorful curses, so it doesn't become overkill. You can often show how one character is beginning to rub off on another if they pick up some of their unique oaths, especially if two people from different cultures swear really differently. It's one of those things, like food, that defines a culture, right?


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## buyjupiter (Mar 17, 2015)

Normally I make do with normal Earth swearing, when I use it--which I do often enough. The normal words and combinations of the normal words.

But in the most recent WIP, I've taken to making up oaths. They're not very pleasant (referring to setting the God of Death's body parts on fire in a particularly grisly kind of way, but for humorous effect), and there are short forms for the longer oaths as well.

I did write the opening of the WIP just to use the oath and the footnotes that accompanied the oath,_ because it was funny_ and I think it sets the tone for the rest of the book.

Is it cheesy? Maybe. But I also think that the level of thought I put into something as "simple" as swearing/cursing gives a lot more depth to the society in a very quick, off-hand, normative way. In other words, I could spend two or three chapters conveying the same amount of background information, or I can go for the cheap laugh.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Mar 17, 2015)

My swearing depends on both character and setting. If it is in a non-earth setting I generally make up my own swears. In my earth like setting I use regular swears and other quasi-swears that fit with the time period I am working with. I only have a problem with swearing if it pulls me out of the story. Otherwise they're just words to me.

As a good example of good contextual swears I generally refer to Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn (rust and ruin being a form of dammit) or to Robert Jordan.


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## AnxietyDragon (Mar 18, 2015)

Depends on the target audience. I'm writing something that is 'all ages' at the moment, and I'm really struggling not to swear in it! I've always used swearing to convey strong emotions, and it can be used really effectively if done well.


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