# A Question on Male Gaze



## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 20, 2015)

Recently, in one of my live critique groups, a member who I respect (he has a degree and career in film so he offers a unique perspective) thought one of my scenes displayed male gaze. 

I know what the concept of male gaze is, and I've tried very hard to avoid these types of issues in my NIP. I've gone to great lengths to portray my female characters as unique individuals with motives, agency, and equal weight. So, his comment shocked me. 

Let me explain the context.

I have a character, an eight-year-old girl, in a classroom setting. She clears her hair from her eyes by sweeping it back and tucking the locks behind an ear. 

That action, the tucking of hair behind an ear, is what his comment was based on. According to him, that is a common descriptive action that male writers have their female characters perform, & it's an example of male gaze.

I have a little girl. She's four and does this all the time. She was the inspiration for that action tag.

So, I ask you.... Is this truly an example of male gaze? It seems over the top to me, especially considering the character's age, but I've been wrong before.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jul 20, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Recently, in one of my live critique groups, a member who I respect (he has a degree and career in film so he offers a unique perspective) thought one of my scenes displayed male gaze.
> 
> I know what the concept of male gaze is, and I've tried very hard to avoid these types of issues in my NIP. I've gone to great lengths to portray my female characters as unique individuals with motives, agency, and equal weight. So, his comment shocked me.
> 
> ...


Can you give an explanation of what "male gaze" is...you know for those who don't know. I'm asking for a friend who doesn't know...that's it...yeah.


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## Black Dragon (Jul 20, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I have a character, an eight-year-old girl, in a classroom setting. She clears her hair from her eyes by sweeping it back and tucking the locks behind an ear.



My 4 year old daughter does this regularly.  I don't think that noticing this is an example of "male gaze."


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## Mythopoet (Jul 20, 2015)

His comment doesn't make any sense to me. It's an example of male gaze just because male writers use it? It definitely is something girls do a lot. I know I do and my daughters do.


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## Ireth (Jul 20, 2015)

I always thought "male gaze" referred to excessive mentioning of a woman's breasts/hips/etc. rather than actions like the one described above.


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## Nimue (Jul 20, 2015)

Wat?  I dunno if brushing her hair out of her eyes would qualify as a moment of male gaze. Not unless you're also laying it on thick about how cute she is.  I think that may be a personal tic for that critiquer...at least, I've never heard anyone bring that up before.

The primo example of male gaze (that I've read before) is a male author having a female character describe her breasts bobbing about, just casually on a walk.  Dunno about you guys, but the only time I think about the motion of my boobs is a) new bra or b) ouch, more support pls.


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## Russ (Jul 20, 2015)

I confess I had to look up "male gaze" but I got the idea now.

I do not think for a second that what you wrote is "male gaze."


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## X Equestris (Jul 20, 2015)

It doesn't seem like male gaze to me.  It seems like a perfectly natural action that I see people with long hair do all the time.


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## Svrtnsse (Jul 20, 2015)

For reference: Male gaze - Geek Feminism Wiki
I'm sure the exact definition will vary depending on who you ask - but this site was the first result when putting male gaze into google, and I guess it's reasonably accurate.

---

I feel it's a bit over the top referring to what you describe as _male gaze_.

Sure, tucking the hair behind the ear may very well be an action that a lot of male writers use when describing the motions of female characters, but classifying it as male gaze based on that single sentence seems to be missing the point. Shouldn't the sentence be put into the context of whatever else is going on at the time?


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 20, 2015)

Okay. Thanks, all. That's what I thought, but wanted to give it consideration.

@Nimue: I don't talk about how cute she is at all. In fact, she considers herself plain, ordinary, & stocky in build.


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## Nimue (Jul 20, 2015)

Yeah, I think you stumbled across someone's pet peeve.  Kudos to you for giving it consideration, though.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jul 20, 2015)

With that definition in mind that doesn't seem too male gazey to me. Especially since the kid is well young and male gaze seems to be more...carnal(?) than that.


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## Gryphos (Jul 20, 2015)

I think if in the past there has been tendency for women to be described as doing that action, it's simply because there's a tendency for female characters to have longer hair and thus at times require that action. Hell, as a dude I used to have quite long hair and I found myself doing that all the time.


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## Penpilot (Jul 20, 2015)

I don't think it's male-gazing either. When I grow my hair out to shoulder length, I do this too. And for the record, I'm a dude. 

It's kind of a necessity when you have long hair. The ears become built in hooks so the hair doesn't get into your mouth when you're eating, or into your eyes when you're reading, etc.


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## Incanus (Jul 20, 2015)

I also used to do this motion when I wore long hair (oh, so long ago).  I think it is a long-hair thing, and not a male/female thing.

I conclude we need a new catagory:  Long Hair Gaze.


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## cupiscent (Jul 20, 2015)

I think perhaps I see where the critiquer is coming from on this - though everyone on this thread has commented on people, including themselves, performing this action all the time, how often do you _think_ about doing it? It becomes a reflex, a default, not an action you take. Whereas from an observer's perspective - often explicitly and implicitly a male one, and especially in modern media - the hair-tuck has been commonly referenced and displayed as a flirtatious and conscious gesture.

I don't think it's inherently problematic, especially if performed by a small child. I don't have any concerns about it in and of itself. But maybe that's where the critique was coming from?

Kudos for pausing to think, though. A moment's reflection never hurts.


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## Tom (Jul 20, 2015)

How is tucking hair behind your ears a male-gaze thing? My younger sister has waist-length hair, and she does it just because, if she didn't, her hair would make it impossible for her to see. Hell, I have _short_ hair, and I sometimes tuck it behind my ears. (And I'm not even a girl.) For me, it's kind of a nervous tic. Some people also do it when they're bored.

I can sort of see where the critiquer is coming from, though. Smoothing or tucking hair behind the ears is a classic "flirty" action, and it's often used in movies--along with a quick smile or sidelong glance--to communicate that the girl is interested in the male lead. My sister, as noted, has long hair, and she plays with it when she's talking to a guy she's into. 

However, in the context of your scene, that action doesn't have connotations of the male gaze. The girl's age should be enough to show that the action is harmless. Maybe you could write in some indicators that would help establish the intent of the action--such as describing how she's bored because the teacher is taking forever to finish the lesson, how she plays with her hair when she's bored. That would clear up any misconceptions once and for all.


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## Nimue (Jul 20, 2015)

Good point, Cupiscent.  I could see how a plethora of details like this--gestures or features of a female POV character that sound as though they're being described by someone watching her, a fixation on physical appearance--could come across as male-gazey.  However, given that TAS is making a point of fleshing out his characters beyond the physical, and this was a pretty harmless example, I don't think this instance is a problem at all.  Also, writers bend POV all the time to relate things that, in a strictly realistic sense, characters wouldn't notice about themselves or their surroundings.

Maybe something to think about, but not worry about.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 20, 2015)

Just to clarify a bit more.

1. The girl is eight.

2. The hair fell over her eyes and she sweeps it behind an ear to see when someone calls her name. It's clearly described as a way to clear vision.

3. There are no males or potential love interests of any kind in this room. She hasn't yet shown any sexual interest of any kind.

However, I do agree that context determines if it could be considered male gaze. I can't think of how many movies show the lonely girl at the bar flirting with the male lead by playing with her hair.


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## Trick (Jul 20, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Just to clarify a bit more.
> 
> 1. The girl is eight.
> 
> ...



Just not eight year olds... to be honest, that he saw that as male gaze is weird to me. I think Nimue nailed it and it is his pet peeve. He dislikes it so much that he didn't think about male gaze being unlikely and inappropriate in direct reference to what you wrote. If it had been a long-haired little boy, in the exact situation, he probably still wouldn't have liked it, he just wouldn't have called it male gaze. 

Plus, how is it male gaze if she is the POVC and she moves the hair to be able to see? I think the whole idea that he brought it up is kind of silly. At the very worst, I could imagine it somehow seeming like a forced physical cliche, but unless you repeat it a lot, even that is unlikely.

EDIT 

Has this guy ever had long hair? (my guess is no)


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## KC Trae Becker (Jul 21, 2015)

Thanks for giving me a fun rabbit hole to chase down. I had never heard of male gaze before. In our house we refer to this perspective as fan boy service. We generally view it as a male weakness rather than accept the objectification of females. Anime is rife with it. We talk to our children about it when the anime warrants viewing despite this short coming, for example Full Metal Alchemist.

While researching, I read that the hair sweep was a classic non ogling example of male gaze. Your critiquer  has probably had the concept drilled into him as a film student with the attempt to remove the prejudice way male film makers disregard the feelings of woman actors and viewers. He probably recognized the classic move (which I now recognize from Wild Style in the Lego Movie) and is trying to sensitize you to it.

I think the litmus test would be to put a boy child in the same scene and see if it would be off. If it seems off, then you might be using this classic move to present the girl's femininity. Not that I personally have a problem with that, she is after all a girl child, but you are entering a gray zone in using such an easily misconstrued gesture often used to sexualize females.

But you have to decide for yourself if in context it is innocent or not. And if this is the only example of male gaze your critiquer could be seeing. 

As you describe this scene, it seems completely fine to me.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jul 21, 2015)

KC Trae Becker said:


> Thanks for giving me a fun rabbit hole to chase down. I had never heard of male gaze before. In our house we refer to this perspective as fan boy service. We generally view it as a male weakness rather than accept the objectification of females. Anime is rife with it. We talk to our children about it when the anime warrants viewing despite this short coming, for example Full Metal Alchemist.
> 
> While researching, I read that the hair sweep was a classic non ogling example of male gaze. Your critiquer  has probably had the concept drilled into him as a film student with the attempt to remove the prejudice way male film makers disregard the feelings of woman actors and viewers. He probably recognized the classic move (which I now recognize from Wild Style in the Lego Movie) and is trying to sensitize you to it.
> 
> ...


It can't just be a boy though. It should be a boy with long hair. And let's be honest anyone with long hair will do the ear tuck. Your ears are natural long hair hooks.


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## skip.knox (Jul 21, 2015)

Interesting thread. I had two questions: why did the author put this into the scene, and why did the critter label it as male gaze? The OP answered the first one--it's a practical gesture to clear her vision.

That leaves the other. We're all sitting around trying to decide if the description meets spec, but why did this trigger in the critiquer? What is s/he reacting to? Rather than deciding if the critter is right or wrong, it might be interesting to understand why s/he thought to make the comment in the first place. Then again, it might turn out to be tiresome and not at all interesting, but it'd be worth asking.


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## Russ (Jul 21, 2015)

KC Trae Becker said:


> T
> I think the litmus test would be to put a boy child in the same scene and see if it would be off. If it seems off, then you might be using this classic move to present the girl's femininity. Not that I personally have a problem with that, she is after all a girl child, but you are entering a gray zone in using such an easily misconstrued gesture often used to sexualize females.



What an odd litmus test.  Do not young boys and young girls act differently?


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 21, 2015)

Russ said:


> What an odd litmus test.  Do not young boys and young girls act differently?


I think KC meant that if you swapped genders, and the action did not change anything about the presentation, then it can't be considered an act of femininity from a male perspective.



skip.knox said:


> We're all sitting around trying to decide if the description meets spec, but why did this trigger in the critiquer? What is s/he reacting to? Rather than deciding if the critter is right or wrong, it might be interesting to understand why s/he thought to make the comment in the first place. Then again, it might turn out to be tiresome and not at all interesting, but it'd be worth asking.


I'll ask him and get back to you on that.


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 21, 2015)

We all have our trigger points.  Some folks I think comment a little more toward the side of caution.  if it were me commenting, I'd probably say something like, "This gesture is sort of categorized as a flirtatious movement by authors trying to avoid "male gaze" type issues.  Just wanted you to be aware this innocent gesture might come off as a (blah blah, whatever I felt)."  I think he did you a disservice by automatically calling the gesture anything that categorized it. 

That being said, I had long hair for most of my life and used it as a sort of shield at times--even using it to sleep in class in high school.  So...I feel pretty secure in saying there's nothing wrong with your portrayal and this is simply a case of a certain writer being very aware of a certain thing and he's being hyper-sensitive to it in this case, but now that you're aware of how it might potentially read as flirtatious, you can keep that in mind as you finish the story.  

I think as a writer, we often aren't aware of what some readers might construe as gestures with a sexual undertone, and all I can say is that erring on the side of caution (especially with children and adult contact) is probably the best bet, but again, I don't think this came close to encroaching that line at all, especially if the girl is the POV character.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Jul 21, 2015)

I think it's odd this is considered male gaze, since the character's action is based on your observation of your own daughter's action. I agree asking the critter why he thought this is a male gaze thing, but I'll be surprised if his answer will be convincing. Showing a feminine behavior is not necessarily through a male gaze.

I don't feel the litmus test–inserting a boy–would tell you anything, other than that the boy seems rather effeminate. I don't think it's male gaze to notice "little girls play with their hair." My seven-year-old slurps soup from her hair if the hair dips into the bowl by accident. Boys don't typically have hair that long.

You could argue length of hair is a societal thing that creates behaviors deemed masculine and feminine, I suppose, but I think from the writer's side, there are plenty of women who write female characters who toss their hair.

I know I have way too little info to be judgmental, but I feel like this guy is a filmmaker who wants "feminist cred" and is going overboard, making knee-jerk reactions to any feminine behavior even if showing the behavior doesn't actually objectify the female character.


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## Devor (Jul 21, 2015)

Playing with your hair - for a guy or a girl - is a perfectly normal, natural thing to do.  But I'll take the counter-position, kind of, for the moment.

It's also a sign of flirting.  You'll find it on any typical list of signs someone is interested in you. When you're interested in someone you're talking to, you become aware of how you look, and you fix your hair so you look your best.  It also serves to call attention to your face, which is something you want to do when you're interested in someone.

I'm not going to criticize you for using it by any means.  But that's probably what you've made your reader think of.


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## KC Trae Becker (Jul 21, 2015)

Russ said:


> What an odd litmus test.  Do not young boys and young girls act differently?



There are differing opinions. My husband would say, "No they don't." I, as an educator with a life time surrounded by kids, say, "Most do act differently, but not all."

T. Allen.Smith, thanks for explaining my confusing litmus test.

If there wasn't a noticeable difference in the scene, the use of the gesture is fine. If there was something off putting, then examine the scene further. 

Writing a different ethnicity, race, gender, sexuality, etc. can be challenging. Perspective can be a subtle thing easily missed. Here's an example to illustrate the subtlety of Male Gaze. I recently had a critter question the youth of my MC. I told them I needed the MC vulnerable. The critter suggested I switch the gender to female, so that I could still have the vulnerability yet a more mature MC. I know he was trying to help and I tried not to bristle. When I related the story to my teenage daughter she did bristle. 

The male equating of femininity with vulnerability can be demeaning. [Yet in total candor I'll admit my own hypocrisy of taking great comfort in it a few times when it has worked in my favor in a tough situation. Who wouldn't? Though I try never to further the misperception.] 

This female experience is subtle and easy to miss. We need to watch our perspective when branching outside our own personal experience. As parents, grandparents, educators and care givers we sometimes try to box others into our own expectations based on our misperceptions. Examining our own perceptions is always helpful.

But I'll get off my soap box now.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 21, 2015)

First, thank you all for your thoughtful consideration & comments. They've been helpful.   

I do understand how this action can be viewed as flirtatious, but in this context, I don't. However, it's occurred to me that it may be an issue of clarity. 

This critique partner also pointed out he had a difficult time assessing age. My attempt was to show age by thoughts, actions, and through contrasting with an older female sibling, and not just come out and say she's eight. Perhaps I need to reconsider that tactic.  

Still, this girl trapping her locks is a way to show shyness (hiding behind her hair) & also shows how she's unconcerned with appearance. Her sister is quite the opposite, while the POV could give a damn about her hair, even though that's what proper young ladies in her society should be concerned with.   

His comment struck me so because, invariably, female critique partners love this character  and her arc because she goes against the common grain of a majority of female characters in fantasy.   

She isn't pretty. She understands there's more to her than the superficial. She's smart, but still a child. She has female mentors. She faces incredible obstacles that she confronts without a male "savior". She's special in a way not immediately evident. She's one of two major POVs. She is THE character with the most agency.    

I've labored to include a character that almost anyone can identify with. So, I find it unusual that a male commenter (who's insights are typically fantastic) went against the grain of my female critique partners.       

I'm going to write him today to dig a bit deeper.


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## Russ (Jul 21, 2015)

KC Trae Becker said:


> There are differing opinions. My husband would say, "No they don't." I, as an educator with a life time surrounded by kids, say, "Most do act differently, but not all."
> 
> T. Allen.Smith, thanks for explaining my confusing litmus test.
> 
> ...



That was actually a very thoughtful post, no soap box involved.

A couple of my closest friends are neuropsychologists, and they tell me that the latest research says young male and female children act differently even before they can walk and talk.


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## skip.knox (Jul 21, 2015)

It becomes even trickier when the female is an elf. Or dwarf. Or dragon. If it's an orc, is the overriding difference the race or the gender? Or the age? If I wanted a vulnerable orc, how would I choose characteristics? I think we also need to be careful not to extrapolate 21st century understandings of gender onto pre-modern societies, non-human societies, etc. It's exactly along those lines that speculative fiction cuts its diamonds.


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## Kobun (Jul 25, 2015)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> It can't just be a boy though. It should be a boy with long hair. And let's be honest anyone with long hair will do the ear tuck. Your ears are natural long hair hooks.



Super true story. When my hair was long I was doing it all the time. Another one that could be accused of the male gaze thing: The hair flip. I've known a bunch of guys with long hair who did it. It's become an easy short hand for women, but the fact is that sometimes your hair gets in your eyes and you habitually take care of it without even thinking about it. It may even be for some the equivalent of my habitual and unconscious adjusting of my glasses when I'm nervous or stressed.


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## Mindfire (Jul 27, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> I know I have way too little info to be judgmental, but I feel like this guy is a filmmaker who wants "feminist cred" and is going overboard, making knee-jerk reactions to any feminine behavior even if showing the behavior doesn't actually objectify the female character.



Yep. Definitely sounds like he was trying to meet his feminist points quota for the day.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Aug 1, 2015)

Heard back from this critique partner. He has retracted his comment, but also stipulated he was not clear on the POV's age. I'll have to look into that. However, in this group, we only submit once every two months. The long period between submissions leads to a lot of forgotten details.


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## stephenspower (Aug 1, 2015)

Me, I would suspect your male commentator just wants to make points with a female member of your group. The out-of-nowhere feminist critique is the hair tuck of certain high-brow men.


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## Mindfire (Aug 1, 2015)

stephenspower said:


> The out-of-nowhere feminist critique is the hair tuck of certain high-brow men.



Dead.


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## brokethepoint (Aug 7, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> First, thank you all for your thoughtful consideration & comments. They've been helpful.
> 
> Still, this girl trapping her locks is a way to show shyness (hiding behind her hair) & also shows how she's unconcerned with appearance. Her sister is quite the opposite, while the POV could give a damn about her hair, even though that's what proper young ladies in her society should be concerned with.
> 
> She isn't pretty. She understands there's more to her than the superficial. She's smart, but still a child. She has female mentors. She faces incredible obstacles that she confronts without a male "savior". She's special in a way not immediately evident. She's one of two major POVs. She is THE character with the most agency.



This right here is the important part, her trapping her locks has a lot of meaning that is shown by that simple action.  The eyes are the window to the soul and she is hiding.


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## Nagash (Aug 7, 2015)

I'm a man with long hair, and heck, I brush my hair behind my ears all the damn time. Seriously... I'm not sure it's a "girl thing" (whatever that means...) so much as a "I've got long hair in my face" thing.

My two cents.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Aug 7, 2015)

Nagash said:


> a "I've got long hair in my face" thing.


…which means you have to male-gaze through your hair.



(Sorry.)


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