# The Inciting Incident



## Chessie (Oct 4, 2013)

Hi everyone! I am wondering when would be a good time to bring the inciting incident into a story. I am giving the story I've been attempting to write a second chance for NaNoWriMo, so I want to go in well prepared. The timing of 'the incident' was a big issue for me the first time around, since I want to make sure the readers have plenty of feel for the status quo before crap hits the fan. My guess is within the first chapter (maybe after 5 or so pages) but that still seems a bit soon. 

Thoughts and suggestions welcome. Thanks all! <3


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## Devor (Oct 4, 2013)

Sometimes formulas work, but nobody can tell if it'll work for you without knowing far more about your work.  But I believe the inciting incident is supposed to happen . . . . within 10%?  25%?  50 pages?  I don't recall.

I would say that you want your first chapter to be full of rising action, so if not in chapter one, you should see chapter one clearly leading up to it.


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## GeekDavid (Oct 4, 2013)

Chesterama said:


> Hi everyone! I am wondering when would be a good time to bring the inciting incident into a story. I am giving the story I've been attempting to write a second chance for NaNoWriMo, so I want to go in well prepared. The timing of 'the incident' was a big issue for me the first time around, since I want to make sure the readers have plenty of feel for the status quo before crap hits the fan. My guess is within the first chapter (maybe after 5 or so pages) but that still seems a bit soon.
> 
> Thoughts and suggestions welcome. Thanks all! <3



It all depends on your personal style. There are books I've read where the inciting incident happened before the book even started... some it takes place right at the start, and some authors (coughModesittcough) can take 1/4 of the book for background before the big event takes place.


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## Penpilot (Oct 5, 2013)

Usually in the first act, which is roughly the first 25%, but it can be as late as the first 33%. The reason it should be early is because it is what gets story going. Without the inciting incident, the story is stuck in first gear. BUT there's no rule that tells you not to start later. 

If I remember right, Star Wars has a late inciting incident, which is Luke's family buying the Droids.


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## shangrila (Oct 5, 2013)

Typically it's the start of the story, whatever changes the character's life and sets them out on the journey. So, early is good. As others have said the first chapter seems to be a good place that a lot of authors use. But also, as others have said, it's up to you. If you want time to build the "Prison" your character is in to start with, then that's fine.

Personally, I usually throw it in as early as possible with the Prison getting slowly fed in as the story continues.


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## wordwalker (Oct 5, 2013)

We shouldn't talk about "Inciting Incident" as if it were a fixed thing. It can happen a bit earlier or later, and it can also be not a single event but a series of escalations-- except that some people will just call one the I.I. anyway. It's a measure of the relationship between your plot elements over time, and can work different ways.

--All the same, a sharp incident that happens early is the safest choice. Just don't get blinders about it.

And, take a look at Lisa Cron's Writer Unboxed Ã‚Â» A Cautionary Tale: 3 Writing Rules that Can Derail Your Story about pacing your opening. It's too easy to let your trust in certain things rush or bog down the early scenes of a story.


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## Chessie (Oct 5, 2013)

Wow, thanks everyone! I appreciate the thoughts.  I always thought that it had to happen within the first several pages but that doesn't feel right. I've changed some characters/things around but basically the story is about an apothecary that gets robbed and something valuable is stolen from it. The protagonist is an aide/scholar that lives and works at the apothecary, and her teacher/owner of the joint gets murdered in the process of the robbery. The item stolen happens to be a valuable tonic but I won't go into that for spoilers. 

What I envision is giving the readers enough time for them to understand how much this work means to the protagonist, and what a close relationship she has with her teacher. I realize that I have little control as to how the readers attach to the characters but I would like to give them sufficient bonding time with 'her world' so that they understand the impact this incident has on her life. 

I'm thinking that within the first chapter just isn't enough time. There are 'shady' things happening in the first chapter that build upon one another so that when the incident does happen the readers will be surprised but at the same time they expected something bad to happen. 

Thank you wordwalker for the link, I'm going to it right now!


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## Lawfire (Oct 5, 2013)

wordwalker said:


> And, take a look at Lisa Cron's Writer Unboxed Ã‚Â» A Cautionary Tale: 3 Writing Rules that Can Derail Your Story about pacing your opening. It's too easy to let your trust in certain things rush or bog down the early scenes of a story.


Great link, thanks!


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## wordwalker (Oct 5, 2013)

Chesterama said:


> I always thought that it had to happen within the first several pages but that doesn't feel right. I've changed some characters/things around but basically the story is about an apothecary that gets robbed and something valuable is stolen from it. The protagonist is an aide/scholar that lives and works at the apothecary, and her teacher/owner of the joint gets murdered in the process of the robbery. The item stolen happens to be a valuable tonic but I won't go into that for spoilers.
> 
> What I envision is giving the readers enough time for them to understand how much this work means to the protagonist, and what a close relationship she has with her teacher. I realize that I have little control as to how the readers attach to the characters but I would like to give them sufficient bonding time with 'her world' so that they understand the impact this incident has on her life.
> 
> ...



I bet the Lisa Cron piece should help a lot with that; I've started collecting links lately (anyone notice?  ) and I consider that one of the best.

Putting an Inciting Incident, and/or a fight, right at the start seems like it's safe. But the more I think about it, the more I think the ideal story would make some more unique, human connection before that (or at the same time). That puts a much higher demand on the writer to make a "slower" start THAT GOOD, or really make the subtler and the high-powered points work together... but it's a challenge worth accepting.


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## Addison (Oct 8, 2013)

I wouldn't say the first five pages. But the inciting incident should be foreshadowed, even if it's a surprise or something. But the inciting incident is also known as "The Door of No Return." It's the part of the first act where something happens to rip the protag out of their comfy little world and into the real story. And incident which does not let them turn back. There's no returning to that life, the only direction is forward. 

So basically, breaking the story into three acts, the first act centers around the inciting incident. The incident itself is the climax of the first act.


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## Penpilot (Oct 8, 2013)

Addison said:


> I wouldn't say the first five pages. But the inciting incident should be foreshadowed, even if it's a surprise or something. But the inciting incident is also known as "The Door of No Return." It's the part of the first act where something happens to rip the protag out of their comfy little world and into the real story. And incident which does not let them turn back. There's no returning to that life, the only direction is forward.
> 
> So basically, breaking the story into three acts, the first act centers around the inciting incident. The incident itself is the climax of the first act.




According to my understanding this isn't the case. The inciting incident is what starts things in motion. For example. In Star Wars it's when Luke and Uncle Owen purchase the droids. This is not the end of the first act. The end of the first act of Star Wars is when Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru are killed and Luke decides to go with Ben.

From my understanding the Inciting incident and the Door of no return are two different things.


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## Devor (Oct 8, 2013)

wordwalker said:


> Putting an Inciting Incident, and/or a fight, right at the start seems like it's safe. But the more I think about it, the more I think the ideal story would make some more unique, human connection before that (or at the same time). That puts a much higher demand on the writer to make a "slower" start THAT GOOD, or really make the subtler and the high-powered points work together... but it's a challenge worth accepting.



Depending on the story, I don't think the Inciting Incident needs to be strong enough to overshadow the early character building.  As Penpilot said about Star Wars, the Inciting Incident is when Luke's uncle bought the droids - the droids who then stayed and witnessed Luke's life at length.




Penpilot said:


> From my understanding the Inciting incident and the Door of no return are two different things.



So what's the difference between the Inciting Incident, the Call to Action, and the Door of No Return?

I googled them a while ago.  I think the inciting incident is when something changes in the MC's life and sets the story in motion, the Call to Action is when the MC decides to do something about it, but what constitutes a Door of No Return?


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## Penpilot (Oct 8, 2013)

Devor said:


> So what's the difference between the Inciting Incident, the Call to Action, and the Door of No Return?
> 
> I googled them a while ago.  I think the inciting incident is when something changes in the MC's life and sets the story in motion, the Call to Action is when the MC decides to do something about it, but what constitutes a Door of No Return?



I'll use Star Wars to explain this.

From my understanding and Inciting Incident is a choice the Protagonist makes, knowingly or unknowingly, that starts the story.

Inciting Incident = Buying the Droids, specifically Luke pointing out R2-D2 as a good choice for a replacement droid when the first one they purchase breaks down.

The Inciting Incident brings a problem onto the Protagonist. The Call to Adventure is when the problem is presented to Protagonist and they must decide if they want to attempt to solve this problem or refuse to do anything about it. 

Call to Action = Finding Princess Leia's message. "Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope."

At first Luke refuses, Refusal of the Call. "Alderaan?  I'm not going to Alderaan.  It's late, I have to get home.  I'm in for it as it is."

Which brings us to the Door of No Return, or Point of No Return. This is where the Protagonist must answer, and there is no turning back. This is the point where Act 1 transitions into Act 2.

Door of No Return = Luke's Aunt and Uncle are killed. Now he must answer the call. There's no turning back because he has no home to return too. Luke declares he's going to Alderan with Ben and he's going to be a Jedi like his father, thus setting his goals for the story. Luke doesn't intend to return. This is symbolized when he sells the landspeeder to pay for travel. He doesn't need it where he's going. Entering the Mos Eisly bar is the jump into act 2, leaving the normal world of the Protagonist behind and entering the story world.


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## Sanctified (Oct 8, 2013)

Why not start in media res and backtrack later once you have a better grasp on things?

 I'm not great at beginnings either, and I'm also probably a bit too conscious about pacing, but starting in the middle (or pretty much anywhere in the narrative) is a good way to get things going and establish a narrative flow, so by the time you get to writing the catalytic incident, you're already in a groove.

After that, you might even decide you like a non-linear presentation, and it could be a good way to hook your readers from the get-go -- plunge 'em right into it so they know what's at stake, and then fill out the backstory as you progress. Good luck.


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## GeekDavid (Oct 8, 2013)

Addison said:


> I wouldn't say the first five pages. But the inciting incident should be foreshadowed, even if it's a surprise or something. But the inciting incident is also known as "The Door of No Return." It's the part of the first act where something happens to rip the protag out of their comfy little world and into the real story. And incident which does not let them turn back. There's no returning to that life, the only direction is forward.
> 
> So basically, breaking the story into three acts, the first act centers around the inciting incident. The incident itself is the climax of the first act.



That's better than I've ever heard it explained.


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## Chessie (Oct 8, 2013)

^^ Yes. Actually, I've realized that I'm having a hard time placing the inciting incident any sooner than the second chapter. It could end up being a slow starting novel...but I have full faith in my abilities as a kick ass story-teller to keep the readers engaged until it happens. There is plenty of tension that happens before it anyway, so I'm rolling with this. We'll see what happens after all is written in the first draft.


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## SineNomine (Oct 8, 2013)

I hate to be of so little help but being this general, but the rule I live by is "The Inciting Incident is the beginning of the story.  The only stuff that should come before it is what you feel the reader has to know to appreciate just how inciting the incident is."  This generally means you can spend a little bit of time setting up the status quo and foreshadowing what is about to happen, but obviously we as authors can easily overestimate the amount of background needed.  Just be careful about putting too much in before things get rolling.


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## Writeking (Oct 8, 2013)

The Inciting Incident should probably come in no later than 100 pages in, but it all depends on where you want it to happen. If you've got a detailed outline planned out, you should find it easier to decide when it should happen.


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## GeekDavid (Oct 8, 2013)

Another possibility if you want the MC to find out about the incident later is to have another character introduce it early, then go on with the introduction of the MC and the world.


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## Chessie (Oct 8, 2013)

Hm, these are all good things to consider, thank you for sharing! SineNomine, your reminder about adding too much in is certainly helpful, thank you. We can totally get lost in our story and add way more in than needs to be there. Luckily (or maybe unluckily) my problem tends to be that I move through the story rather fast. Usually I need to go back and add in more description to slow down my pace, so the inciting incident won't be happening later than Chapter Two.

The first chapter will be foreshadowing the event and adding in a few more things so that when the inciting incident happens, the protagonist really feels it in her heart to volunteer herself to act on it.


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## The Dark One (Oct 9, 2013)

It depends of course on the story. My three published books all have the Incident at different points - one right at the beginning. One about 10 pages in (the hero receives a letter addressed in his own handwriting from a place he's never been while breaking up with his girlfriend over the phone, just after he was forced to resign from his job). The third, just published occurs about 60 pages in but there are numerous small incidents across several threads which give the story its momentum until a couple of threads come together and the main action explode off the page.

At least, that is my hope.


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## wordwalker (Oct 9, 2013)

One problem with "inciting incident" as a concept is that if you trust the idea too much it can become an excuse to delay, not just that transition, but too much of the story itself. By all means the MC can take a while (100ish pages does work an upper maximum, sure) to fully commit or for the side character to bring the action around to the MC. But the more you do that, the surer you have to be that the scenes before then keep pulling the reader forward. I like to think there might not be an early II, but that's if I work to make _every_ scene along the way an incitement to at least the next scene, even it's three chapters of red herring before his home village blows up.

Every scene needs to keep the reader eager to read on; The Thing not happening yet just means you have other gears to shift up through on the way.


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## Devor (Oct 9, 2013)

wordwalker said:


> I like to think there might not be an early II, but that's if I work to make _every_ scene along the way an incitement to at least the next scene, even it's three chapters of red herring before his home village blows up.



That makes me wonder, does anyone know if there's similar lingo to "Inciting Incident" and some of the others mentioned when looking just at scene or chapter structures?  I'm only aware of scene/sequel, which is pretty broad.


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## wordwalker (Oct 10, 2013)

Devor said:


> That makes me wonder, does anyone know if there's similar lingo to "Inciting Incident" and some of the others mentioned when looking just at scene or chapter structures?  I'm only aware of scene/sequel, which is pretty broad.



Good question. Within a scene I think it's just called buildup, and Scene/Sequel is very general. 

On the other hand for coordinating more scenes there's



Addison said:


> But the inciting incident is also known as "The Door of No Return." It's the part of the first act where something happens to rip the protag out of their comfy little world and into the real story.





Penpilot said:


> According to my understanding this isn't the case. The inciting incident is what starts things in motion. For example. In Star Wars it's when Luke and Uncle Owen purchase the droids. This is not the end of the first act. The end of the first act of Star Wars is when Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru are killed and Luke decides to go with Ben.



So we have Inciting Incident (there's trouble/opportunity out there!), Call To Adventure (MC can help) and Refusal Of The Call (Not me!), then Door of No Return aka The Call Knows Where You Live (You don't get a vote, MC!). And by the Star Wars example, even the Inciting Incident is only when the situation begins to cross the MC's path, so personal buildup and other-viewpoint events like Vader capturing Leia's ship could still happen before that. The Door might also be split into the realization that changes the MC and the action (entering Mos Eisley and selling the speeder) that locks him into his new life-- which of corse have plenty of scenes between them too.

Not that everyone has to think in those terms, but it's a useful breakdown to consider. Any others?


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## Chessie (Oct 10, 2013)

Actually, with how you've described it, there is still plenty of room for story and tension before the incident happens. And I think readers are pretty bright in the sense that they catch on to what that incident is specifically.


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## Addison (Oct 11, 2013)

The inciting incident, while the real fire-under-character's-butt of the story, doesn't have to be something external or pivotal to the main plot. There are as many layers to character as there are for the story itself. So the inciting incident could deal with the overall story (he hears the prophecy, sees the assassination, witnesses the plague etc) or it could be something interpersonal (little boy struck by mother, brother betrayed by brother) which would also be something internal, a feeling of trust, placing a wall between the character and the old safe place which spurs them to the place of main-plot events. 

Really think, as the inciting incident is the character's door of no return. It's not the plot's door of no return.


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## wordwalker (Oct 11, 2013)

Addison said:


> Really think, as the inciting incident is the character's door of no return. It's not the plot's door of no return.



Not a bad rule. That however many layers and branches may be going on, this is the one that to the character (and for a reader looking for Theme stuff) made the difference.


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## GeekDavid (Oct 11, 2013)

I've been thinking, another way of leading up to the Inciting Incident might be to have smaller incidents happen to the MC leading up to the Big Inciting Incident. That would kind of make the Inciting Incident the proverbial "last straw" that pushes the MC out of his comfortable life and into the life of the adventure that the story is about.


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## Lawfire (Oct 11, 2013)

Addison said:


> Really think, as the inciting incident is the character's door of no return. It's not the plot's door of no return.


Very true. In a multiple protag/POV, novel such as GRRM's _A Game of Thrones_ (1st book not the HBO series), there is an inciting incident for each character. Some incidents happen later than others. Granted it is a series, but the book could stand alone.


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## Addison (Oct 11, 2013)

wordwalker said:


> Not a bad rule. That however many layers and branches may be going on, this is the one that to the character (and for a reader looking for Theme stuff) made the difference.



Exactly. Like Harry Potter for example. He got his letter but he didn't have to take it. When things were getting scary at Hogwarts he could have went to the Durselys, but he didn't. Hogwarts was his home. When Hagrid came with the letter it wasn't just "Congratulation, you're a wizard off to training!" For Harry it was more "Congratulations, I'm taking you away from this horrid place so you can wear clothes that fit, make friends, sleep in a real bed and get full meals." That is what spurred Harry out of that shack, not the magic.


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## Devor (Oct 11, 2013)

Addison said:


> Exactly. Like Harry Potter for example. He got his letter but he didn't have to take it. When things were getting scary at Hogwarts he could have went to the Durselys, but he didn't. Hogwarts was his home. When Hagrid came with the letter it wasn't just "Congratulation, you're a wizard off to training!" For Harry it was more "Congratulations, I'm taking you away from this horrid place so you can wear clothes that fit, make friends, sleep in a real bed and get full meals." That is what spurred Harry out of that shack, not the magic.



I'm a little confused, on a technical level that may not really matter except to be, y'know, technical.

Was the inciting incident in Harry Potter when Hagrid showed up with a letter, or was it the first letter that arrived with the first owl that Harry never got to see?  I would've thought that the first letter was the Inciting Incident, and that Hagrid was the call to action.  And that there's a whole second II/CoA when they discover that things are amiss at Hogwarts.

The reason I ask is that, every once in a while, it's helpful to know these distinctions when people are talking about them.


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## Penpilot (Oct 12, 2013)

It's when Hagrid arrives. The first letter can't be the inciting incident. The inciting incident must have the protagonist participating in it in some form. There they must make a choice knowingly or unknowingly that starts the plot moving.

Here's a link that explains it in different terms. Write On!: The Basics: The Inciting Incident


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## Addison (Oct 12, 2013)

Exactly, the letters are what make the reader-and character-interested in a given and growing situation. Hagrid coming is a person and event that can drastically change Harry's life. Which is what happens. 

Thanks for the link Pen Pilot.


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## Helen (Oct 12, 2013)

Penpilot said:


> IThe inciting incident must have the protagonist participating in it in some form.



Not necessarily.



Penpilot said:


> There they must make a choice knowingly or unknowingly that starts the plot moving.



Not necessarily.



Penpilot said:


> It's when Hagrid arrives.



Not necessarily.  



Penpilot said:


> Here's a link that explains it in different terms. Write On!: The Basics: The Inciting Incident



The link is looking at it, more or less, as the push into two. 

That's only one way of looking at it. It's often not placed there at all.


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## Penpilot (Oct 12, 2013)

Instead of just saying, "Not Necessarily", how about giving your reasons for saying this. Without your reasons, it adds nothing to the discussion. What's your understand of an inciting incident and how does it differ?


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## Addison (Oct 13, 2013)

Last night I listed all the incidents in the first two chapters and really studied them until I found the inciting incident. Everything else was build-up, but luckily I found it.


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## Chessie (Oct 14, 2013)

After reading the article posted here by Penpilot, I'm a bit closer to clarity on this subject. However, I have a question. So the article breaks it down fairly easy, stating that the inciting incident can be any event that changes the character's life and sets the rest of the story in motion. I'll come clean here: I have two events which could be _that_ incident, but I'm not sure which one to choose. They will both be in the story but I want to be clear on which is THE one.

1. Zyna volunteers herself to take the tonics to the southern town that has a disease outbreak. The reason why this is important is because it takes her to the next level of the story, where she's robbed by a group of bandits wanting the tonics she's carrying.

2. Zyna's dog sled is robbed by bandits. They kill her dogs, steal the tonics and the rest of her possessions, thus leaving her stranded in a winter filled wilderness. Imo, this is where the real story begins. 

But you see, either of these events could be the inciting incident. Reason I'm having troubles deciding is because of how I'm wanting to frame the first act & the first couple chapters. What do you guys think?


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## Penpilot (Oct 14, 2013)

It's the first one. There, he makes a conscious choice which brings him to that point where he's robbed. If you take my Star Wars example. The first one is equivalent to Luke getting the droids.


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## Addison (Oct 14, 2013)

When I was examining my incidents I had trouble too. At the same time, as I usually do, I was also watching a movie on youtube. That time it was a horror/thriller, "Husk". I had a little trouble with the story so I looked at Husk and tried to find what the inciting incident was. If one thing in the beginning didn't happen that prevented the story from happening what would it be? For "Husk" it was the murder of crows crashing into the windshield which, in turn, sent the car off the road into a ditch. Without the crows the characters would have made it safely to the lake house for fun. They wouldn't have been stranded, gone through the corn field and be killed off. 

So I looked closely at what my story was about. I looked at Who when Where at When to do What for Why and How. So look at your story closely Chester. What is the story really about? Then look at the incidents closely. If incident one doesn't happen could another scenario arise in consequence which somehow gets Zyna to a position to be victim of the second incident? That's how the other beginning incidents were in my story, and every story. I could make it so my character doesn't go into his step-father's study, but that would mean the step-father's building emotions would explode by his own means (and not deflate when my protag confronts him with his discovery.) The step-father's explosion would propel my protag to the next incident just as easily as the study. 

If that's confusing, I apologize. Basically, really examine the core of the story, each layer, then the incidents and how they attribute. If one can be dismissed yet the character still goes on to your story, then that's not the inciting incident.


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## Helen (Oct 14, 2013)

Chesterama said:


> stating that the inciting incident can be any event that changes the character's life and sets the rest of the story in motion.





Penpilot said:


> It's when Hagrid arrives. The first letter can't be the inciting incident. The inciting incident must have the protagonist participating in it in some form. There they must make a choice knowingly or unknowingly that starts the plot moving.



The inciting incident doesn't have to involve the protagonist. Nor does the protagonist have to make a choice. Those are arbitrary rules you or somebody have made up.

Also, Chesterama's quote could well apply to the first letter, as it happens at home. So the first letter could be the inciting incident. 



Addison said:


> Basically, really examine the core of the story, each layer, then the incidents and how they attribute. If one can be dismissed yet the character still goes on to your story, then that's not the inciting incident.



But that could apply to many stages. If Leia didn't send R2, there wouldn't have been a journey. If R2 didn't disappear, Luke wouldn't have left. If Luke's aunt and uncle hadn't been murdered, he wouldn't have left.



Penpilot said:


> What's your understand of an inciting incident and how does it differ?



There are lots of events which move a story forward - each with it's own specific name, depending on context.

Any one of them is attributed the label "inciting incident."

Some people think the first trigger is the inciting incident.

Others think it is the catalyst, as per say, Snyder's page 11/12.

Others, like you, suggest it is the thing that takes you into Act 2, which would be more like Snyder's "break into two." 

Others link it to one of the other events.

It doesn't really matter as long as you understand the purpose of all the events and why they're there.


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## GeekDavid (Oct 14, 2013)

Here's some input from K.M. Weiland's _Outling Your Novel_ (which includes a lot more than basic outlining):



> *What Is an Inciting Event?*
> Bestselling legal suspense author James Scott Bell describes the inciting event as a doorway: "The key question to ask yourself is this: Can my lead walk away from the plot right now and go on as he has before? If the answer is yes, you haven't gone through that first doorway yet.
> 
> *What Isn't an Inciting Event?*
> ...


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## Chessie (Oct 14, 2013)

GeekDavid, that post is awesome thank you! That explains things much more (and it used one of my favorite movies as the example haha). What I gather from that tidbit is that if the character can carry on normally after an event happens, then that's not it. So Penpilot is correct: the inciting incident in my story would be the protagonist volunteering herself for the large task ahead. When her professor gets word of the outbreak, she's in the room, but if she doesn't volunteer herself to help then she would just go back to her meager cabin and work on her tonics. However, taking responsibility here is what allows her to move further on into the story and get robbed. Sweet. I think I got it.

Let me just add in that I really like that explanation about the incident happening a quarter of the way in. I like the idea of the readers getting a feel for what she's like, so they understand why she volunteers herself in the first place.


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## GeekDavid (Oct 14, 2013)

Chesterama said:


> GeekDavid, that post is awesome thank you! That explains things much more (and it used one of my favorite movies as the example haha). What I gather from that tidbit is that if the character can carry on normally after an event happens, then that's not it. So Penpilot is correct: the inciting incident in my story would be the protagonist volunteering herself for the large task ahead. When her professor gets word of the outbreak, she's in the room, but if she doesn't volunteer herself to help then she would just go back to her meager cabin and work on her tonics. However, taking responsibility here is what allows her to move further on into the story and get robbed. Sweet. I think I got it.
> 
> Let me just add in that I really like that explanation about the incident happening a quarter of the way in. I like the idea of the readers getting a feel for what she's like, so they understand why she volunteers herself in the first place.



That's why I posted it. When I read it, the lightbulb went on over my head too.


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## Penpilot (Oct 14, 2013)

Helen said:


> The inciting incident doesn't have to involve the protagonist. Nor does the protagonist have to make a choice. Those are arbitrary rules you or somebody have made up.



If the protagonist isn't involved in the inciting incident and they don't make a choice then they have no agency. Agency is what makes the protagonist matter. Their choices matter. If they don't then the, the protagonist, doesn't matter to the outcome of the story. If Luke doesn't chose to buy R2 D2, nothing happens to him, no message from Leia, no seeing Ben. His life would remain the same, so no story about becoming a Jedi and fighting the Empire. Luke, our protagonist, will remain a farm boy. It doesn't matter what Leia does because she isn't the protagonist. Sure if she didn't send R2 away we wouldn't get the story but what she does is just background. She's part of the interesting things happening that intersect with the path of the protagonist and start him down a different path. Star Wars is Luke's story. That's why sending R2 isn't the inciting incident. The trajectory of that story doesn't involve Luke yet.


This is not arbitrary. If you examine movies and books this will be shown to be true.



Helen said:


> Others think it is the catalyst, as per say, Snyder's page 11/12.
> 
> Others, like you, suggest it is the thing that takes you into Act 2, which would be more like Snyder's "break into two."



Me thinks you did not read my post closely enough. My definition of inciting incident is closer to Snyder's catalyst and nowhere near "break into two."


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## PaulineMRoss (Oct 15, 2013)

It seems to me that much of the disagreement here stems from differing terminology. If you google 'inciting incident', you get a whole range of different points in the story, from some event, perhaps even before the start of the story, that sets the whole ball rolling to the point where the protagonist commits himself to some life-changing and irrevocable action.

I've seen (somewhere, although I can't find the reference now) that you can define three key points for the early part of the story:

- Catalyst (some event which kicks everything off, which may or may not directly involve the protagonist)
- Call to action (when it becomes clear the protagonist has something to do, but may refuse)
- Point of no return (when the protagonist commits)

I think people are using the term 'inciting incident' to refer to *different* points in the story. Here's a post which describes the inciting incident as a catalyst (and which says the inciting incident in Star Wars is Darth Vader attacking Princess Leia's ship):

Plot Points and the Inciting Incident - Narrative First


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## Helen (Oct 16, 2013)

GeekDavid said:


> Here's some input from K.M. Weiland's _Outling Your Novel_ (which includes a lot more than basic outlining):
> 
> *Generally speaking, the inciting event should occur not quite a quarter of the way into your story. *



At around the 25% mark, that makes it close to plot point 1, which makes it more or less the break into two. 



Penpilot said:


> My definition of inciting incident is closer to Snyder's catalyst and nowhere near "break into two."



That makes it around the 10% mark.



PaulineMRoss said:


> Here's a post which describes the inciting incident as a catalyst (and which says the inciting incident in Star Wars is Darth Vader attacking Princess Leia's ship):
> 
> Plot Points and the Inciting Incident - Narrative First


That puts it at, lets say, 0% - the get-go. Pretty much within the earliest sequences.



PaulineMRoss said:


> I think people are using the term 'inciting incident' to refer to *different* points in the story.



That's exactly what people are doing.



Penpilot said:


> If the protagonist isn't involved in the inciting incident and they don't make a choice then they have no agency. Agency is what makes the protagonist matter. Their choices matter. If they don't then the, the protagonist, doesn't matter to the outcome of the story.



You're ignoring the debate about what a protagonist is and multiple characters with agency. For example, this suggests that the main character and protagonist can be split into two or more:
The difference between Hero, Main Character and Protagonist

With ensemble movies, there's more than one character with "agency." You're suggesting that they all have to be involved with the inciting incident, in the way you say, to have "agency," to matter to the outcome of the story. 

"Agency" can be established earlier or later. It does not necessarily need to be established at the inciting incident, it does not need to be established in the way you say, choices and protagonist involvement can occur at various points, there are many ways to establish agency.



Penpilot said:


> This is not arbitrary. If you examine movies and books this will be shown to be true.




You're probably using a narrow set of examples (Star Wars, Matrix) where it "seems" that your "rule" works (Luke agreeing to go with Ben, Neo taking the pill). These stories are better understood through hero's journey language (for which BTW, I recommend kalbashir.com )

The point of the inciting incident is to move the story forward, not establish agency.

There are lots of stories where the inciting incident doesn't involve a protagonist making a choice, because it actually doesn't need to be about the protagonist. 

I mean, if it helps you write an inciting incident, then OK. But there's no rule saying that the inciting incident must feature those two elements, as you're suggesting.


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## Penpilot (Oct 16, 2013)

Helen said:


> You're ignoring the debate about what a protagonist is and multiple characters with agency. For example, this suggests that the main character and protagonist can be split into two or more:
> The difference between Hero, Main Character and Protagonist
> 
> With ensemble movies, there's more than one character with "agency." You're suggesting that they all have to be involved with the inciting incident, in the way you say, to have "agency," to matter to the outcome of the story.



Each of the main POV characters has their own plot to follow. Each of their plots has a an inciting incident that starts it going. In the hero's journey all the hero, the main character, and the protagonist are the same person. 



> "Agency" can be established earlier or later. It does not necessarily need to be established at the inciting incident, it does not need to be established in the way you say, choices and protagonist involvement can occur at various points, there are many ways to establish agency.



I don't thing you're really listening to what I'm saying. You're attributing things to me that I never said. I did not say the inciting incident is use to establish agency. I said your main character, hero, protagonist must make the choice to go on the adventure. They must have agency in the matter of whether they go on the journey.



> You're probably using a narrow set of examples (Star Wars, Matrix) where it "seems" that your "rule" works (Luke agreeing to go with Ben, Neo taking the pill). These stories are better understood through hero's journey language (for which BTW, I recommend kalbashir.com )
> 
> The point of the inciting incident is to move the story forward, not establish agency.



Again you're putting words in my mouth. Inciting incident is not used to establish agency. I never said that.



> There are lots of stories where the inciting incident doesn't involve a protagonist making a choice, because it actually doesn't need to be about the protagonist.



I couldn't disagree more. It's all about the protagonist. 



> I mean, if it helps you write an inciting incident, then OK. But there's no rule saying that the inciting incident must feature those two elements, as you're suggesting.



Here are links where the source says the inciting incident is all about he protagonist. 

Inciting incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Main/Inciting Incident - Television Tropes & Idioms
Inciting Incident | Definition & Examples | Scribe Meets World

The thing is you can break down a story how ever your want. It doesn't matter. Because all those elements, however you want to label them, exist. If you want to get down to it, there are no rules for writing. Labels in writing often mean different things in different theories in writing. Inciting incident, how I define it and many others, I defy you to find a story where the protagonist doesn't have to make a choice the way I've described it.


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## Helen (Oct 17, 2013)

Penpilot said:


> Each of the main POV characters has their own plot to follow. Each of their plots has a an inciting incident that starts it going.



You don't need an inciting incident for each POV character.
e.g  _Hangover_. One event moves everything forward. 

Same with _Blue Jasmin_.



Penpilot said:


> In the hero's journey all the hero, the main character, and the protagonist are the same person.



Not necessarily. We know that in _Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (2005)_, we've got a main character and a protagonist.
But that can also be seen as hero's journey - we've got an Ordinary World, New World, First Threshold and so on.



Penpilot said:


> I don't thing you're really listening to what I'm saying. You're attributing things to me that I never said. I did not say the inciting incident is use to establish agency.
> 
> Again you're putting words in my mouth. Inciting incident is not used to establish agency. I never said that.



Well, you did say that the inciting incident must involve a protagonist who makes a choice. And that if there is no protagonist making a choice, then there's no agency. So you did say it, if indirectly.

I'm really not trying to out words in your mouth. I'm just disagreeing with some of your statements and some of the implications within them. Like the one where you say that the "inciting incident must involve a protagonist who makes a choice."



Penpilot said:


> I said your main character, hero, protagonist must make the choice to go on the adventure. They must have agency in the matter of whether they go on the journey.


Often, at the inciting incident, the protagonist isn't involved and doesn't have a choice. They're just "carried." Other characters do all the work and make the choices, if any.

In _Alien_, I'd say that the inciting incident is around when Dallas tells the crew that they have to investigate the signal. Parker, Brett, Lambert all resist going, but they got to go. Ripley's not really involved at all. She's not even part of the team that goes down to the planet. It doesn't become clear until much, much later that Ripley is the protagonist.



Penpilot said:


> I couldn't disagree more. It's all about the protagonist.


In _Blue Jasmin_, Jasmin is the protagonist. But it's clearly not all about her. It's about Ginger too.

I think if you look at that story, you'll find Ginger carries a theme too.

So it's not all about the protagonist necessarily. Unless you start calling every POV character a protagonist.



Penpilot said:


> Here are links where the source says the inciting incident is all about he protagonist.



I can't see a statement in any of them which says that the inciting incident MUST involve the protagonist.

And if there is one, then _Alien_ proves them wrong.



Penpilot said:


> I defy you to find a story where the protagonist doesn't have to make a choice the way I've described it.



Lets start with _Alien_, as I've described above.


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## Penpilot (Oct 17, 2013)

Helen said:


> I can't see a statement in any of them which says that the inciting incident MUST involve the protagonist.



Then I don't thing you read them closely enough. A quote from one of the links. " The Inciting Incident need not be the first thing the audience sees, nor the first eventful thing to happen in the story. It can often be preceded by long bits of Exposition, glimpses into the Backstory, or scenes setting up the world of the story. It pertains to the protagonist solely, and his role in the overall plot"




Helen said:


> And if there is one, then _Alien_ proves them wrong.



The inciting incident for Alien is when Ripley discovers the transmission is possibly a warning. It's more of action of inaction that lets the story proceed. She's about to go after the crew to warn them, but lets Ash talk her out of it. If she gets to warn the crew, then no face-hugger. Refusal of the Call happens when the crew returns, one of them having been contaminated by the face-hugger, and she refuses to let them in. But then Ash lets them in anyway, forcing us beyond the point of no return and into act 2.

Alien can be a tricky movie to identify structure because they're deliberately trying to hide who the real protagonist is. But it's obvious that Ripley is making choices that could stop the story cold, but Ash works against her and forces her ahead.


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## Helen (Oct 18, 2013)

Penpilot said:


> Then I don't thing you read them closely enough. A quote from one of the links. " The Inciting Incident need not be the first thing the audience sees, nor the first eventful thing to happen in the story. It can often be preceded by long bits of Exposition, glimpses into the Backstory, or scenes setting up the world of the story. It pertains to the protagonist solely, and his role in the overall plot"



For every link you come up with to support your argument, I can come up with one to support mine. Also, your links are suggesting that "the hero's life/direction/whatever changes" as a result of the inciting incident. That's different to being directly involved with it. And they omit your "choice" element.

A lot of links have been thrown about in this thread, We've had an inciting incident at 0%, at 10%, at 25%.... . Not everyone is right. Some / most are wrong.

Anyone who says that the inciting incident _must_ involve a protagonist who makes a choice is wrong.




Penpilot said:


> The inciting incident for Alien is when Ripley discovers the transmission is possibly a warning. It's more of action of inaction that lets the story proceed. She's about to go after the crew to warn them, but lets Ash talk her out of it. If she gets to warn the crew, then no face-hugger. Refusal of the Call happens when the crew returns, one of them having been contaminated by the face-hugger, and she refuses to let them in. But then Ash lets them in anyway, forcing us beyond the point of no return and into act 2.
> 
> Alien can be a tricky movie to identify structure because they're deliberately trying to hide who the real protagonist is. But it's obvious that Ripley is making choices that could stop the story cold, but Ash works against her and forces her ahead.




That's not the inciting incident.

I think you're stuck on the protagonist and are just tracing back to the moment she seems to first get involved.


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## Penpilot (Oct 18, 2013)

Helen said:


> A lot of links have been thrown about in this thread, We've had an inciting incident at 0%, at 10%, at 25%.... . Not everyone is right. Some / most are wrong.



There is not right for when the inciting incident should be. The fact that you're trying to apply absolutes to this subject matter shows that you're not understanding how the "rules" can be manipulated when writing.




Helen said:


> Anyone who says that the inciting incident _must_ involve a protagonist who makes a choice is wrong.
> 
> That's not the inciting incident.
> 
> I think you're stuck on the protagonist and are just tracing back to the moment she seems to first get involved.



Weather you think it's right or not, I told you every story contains a point where the protagonist must make a choice that will effect whether the story will happen or not. Call it the inciting incident or call it the jibber-jabber point, whatever. You said that that point doesn't exist in Alien. I pointed out that point and all you can say is "You're wrong." So that's your whole line of reasoning, "You're wrong". Well, I can see where this is going. I think any further "discussion" will be fruitless.


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## Helen (Oct 19, 2013)

Penpilot said:


> I told you every story contains a point where the protagonist must make a choice that will effect whether the story will happen or not. Call it the inciting incident or call it the jibber-jabber point, whatever. You said that that point doesn't exist in Alien. I pointed out that point and all you can say is "You're wrong." So that's your whole line of reasoning, "You're wrong". Well, I can see where this is going. I think any further "discussion" will be fruitless.




In _The Godfather_, most people would say the inciting incident's when the Don refuses Sollozzo or when the Don is shot.

But because neither of them involve the protagonist, you'd totally ignore both of them, scan the protagonist and probably point to when Michael calls the house and Sonny tells him to come home, or some later event involving Michael.

Your arbitrary rule is causing you to ignore likely, highly reasonable answers and favor unlikely, highly unreasonable answers.

To have a debate, the opposition needs a reasonable argument. And you don't have one.




Penpilot said:


> you're not understanding how the "rules" can be manipulated when writing.




 I don't see you doing that.

I see you flapping about with your suspicious rule and coming up with the wrong answers.


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## Chessie (Oct 19, 2013)

So Helen, is your point that the inciting incident doesn't need to involve the protagonist? Isn't the story about the protagonist in the first place so why would the inciting incident not include him/her? :/


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## Helen (Oct 19, 2013)

Chesterama said:


> So Helen, is your point that the inciting incident doesn't need to involve the protagonist?



Yes.



Chesterama said:


> Isn't the story about the protagonist in the first place so why would the inciting incident not include him/her?



The inciting incident gets the ball rolling.

We can see it in _Alien_. They get going without her. She gets involved later.

We can see it in _The Godfather_. The Don refuses Sollozzo, then gets shot. These events bring Michael in. He doesn't need to be directly involved with them.


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## Chessie (Oct 19, 2013)

I disagree. The inciting incident is what gets the protagonist involved into the story in the first place. It changes their lives forever. If it doesn't include the protagonist, then where is the story? Why have a protagonist at all then?


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## Penpilot (Oct 19, 2013)

Helen said:


> I see you flapping about with your suspicious rule and coming up with the wrong answers.



I was going to ignore this further, but stop trying to make this personal. "Flapping? Suspicious rule?" I've given you links that back up my claim. Understanding comes with respect. Your tone is disrespectful.


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## Sheilawisz (Oct 19, 2013)

Hello everyone, in order to keep a friendly atmosphere in this thread please click on the following link and read the Forum Guidelines.

Helen: _Making degrading, snide or derisive comments_ and engaging into _Argumentative or hostile behavior_ goes against our Forum Guidelines. Please try to be more friendly and respectful towards other members of Mythic Scribes.

Thank you =)


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## Helen (Oct 20, 2013)

Penpilot said:


> stop trying to make this personal



I wasn't trying to.

You threw some snide remarks and I responded.

You're right. Lets keep it civil.



Chesterama said:


> If it doesn't include the protagonist, then where is the story? Why have a protagonist at all then?



You could equally say, why have all those other great scenes where the protagonist isn't involved.

In _Alien_, a lot goes on when Ripley isn't involved. Same with _The Godfather_.

There's a lot of story in those movies where the protagonist isn't involved.


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## shangrila (Oct 21, 2013)

I think the inciting incident has to relate to your hero/MC in some way (obviously), but at the same time it doesn't HAVE to be a choice made by them. There are sometimes just things that happen, for good or bad, that can radically change a life.


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## Helen (Oct 22, 2013)

shangrila said:


> I think the inciting incident has to relate to your hero/MC in some way (obviously)



There is a relationship. It can be cause and effect. The inciting incident can result in a character getting involved in the story, who turns out to be the protagonist.

But the protagonist doesn't have to be involved in the inciting incident.


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## shangrila (Oct 23, 2013)

That's what I said...didn't I?


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## Addison (Oct 25, 2013)

I see the inciting incident as a game of dominos. First you build the story, you set of all the tiles and the things tht they trigger, like a falling pyramid of toilet paper rolls or something. Then you, the writer, sit at the end and stare at the trigger piece. As a writer you are telling the story from the protag's perspective and that first tile is the story. So you pushing that tile is an incident directly from protag to protag-if that makes sense. But if anyone here has played dominos then you know that anything can set off a game of dominos. A door slamming shut, the dog bolting to the front door, a breeze from the window, who knows! But it's not always you. So the inciting incident isn't always on the protag. 

For example the inciting incident could be on a far of town or a side character. The incident which starts the story is not on the hero but, as it's his home town or is girlfriend, he's spurred into the story. It's not on him directly but it is important to him. THAT is what makes the inciting incident, the importance to the character.


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## Mythopoet (Oct 26, 2013)

I think using the word "involved" is leading to confusion. "Involved" is a complicated concept. "Related" is a better term but also complicated.

What Helen seems to be saying is that the main character does not have to be actually on the page, participating physically in the inciting incident when it happens and I agree with that. But obviously the inciting incident must have some connection to the main character or it won't have any effect on the main character, which is what's important. What degree of connection is entirely up to the imagination of the writer.


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