# Mythic Scribes Fantasy Survey Part 3



## Philip Overby (Oct 19, 2013)

This is the final part of the same survey that Nihal posted from Tumblr. http://mythicscribes.com/forums/chit-chat/10045-small-fantasy-survey.html If you haven't voted yet, you can still do so for Part 1 and 2. Once the polls are closed, I'm going to collect all the information and present it as one thread so we can all discuss the results. 

For this survey, it's all about cliches you either want to see changed or hate completely. This obviously going to vary from person to person, so if you don't see the specific cliche you want to see changed or hate, then click on "Other" and share your thoughts in the thread.

Since cliches seem to be discussed a lot on the forum, I imagine this one will have some interesting results.

*I've allowed multiple choice on this one as well, even though it says "the most." You can choose one if you want, but please don't choose more than two.*


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## Devor (Oct 19, 2013)

I just put the Chosen One.  All of the others seemed more dependent on the type of story.  Even the farmboy-turned-hero only bugs me if he turns into a hero in fulfillment of a prophecy about being the Chosen One.

I almost clicked on the "women serve minor roles" box, and if faced with this question at any given moment it would probably be a coin toss.  But as worded, I just didn't feel strongly about it.  I think there's a phrasing issue there.


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## Philip Overby (Oct 19, 2013)

I don't think there's a phrasing issue. Interpret it how you see fit.


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## Sparkie (Oct 19, 2013)

I picked Stereotypical Non-Humans and Tolkien Rip-Offs.  The first is self explanatory, but I'd like to expound a bit on why I chose the second.  WARNING:  The following may seem heretical to fans of epic fantasy.

I feel that there is too much of a reliance within the fantasy genre on the kind of tale that Tolkien is famous for, namely The Journey.  Whether The Journey be a physical or metaphoric one, this kind of tale is nearly synonymous with fantasy literature.  I think that needs to change.  In my opinion, the entire genre of fantasy has not even come close to reaching its full potential.  Remember, in fantasy anything is possible.  I feel it is the responsibility of serious fantasy writers to push the boundaries and shake up the preconceptions of what is possible, not just with setting and character, but with _story._

I hope that didn't come off like a rant.


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## Philip Overby (Oct 19, 2013)

Sparkie said:


> I picked Stereotypical Non-Humans and Tolkien Rip-Offs.  The first is self explanatory, but I'd like to expound a bit on why I chose the second.  WARNING:  The following may seem heretical to fans of epic fantasy.
> 
> I feel that there is too much of a reliance within the fantasy genre on the kind of tale that Tolkien is famous for, namely The Journey.  Whether The Journey be a physical or metaphoric one, this kind of tale is nearly synonymous with fantasy literature.  I think that needs to change.  In my opinion, the entire genre of fantasy has not even come close to reaching its full potential.  Remember, in fantasy anything is possible.  I feel it is the responsibility of serious fantasy writers to push the boundaries and shake up the preconceptions of what is possible, not just with setting and character, but with _story._
> 
> I hope that didn't come off like a rant.



I do think journeys or quests are sort of ingrained in fantasy literature, but I think that's why epic fantasy exists as a category. It usually has to deal with a global conflict with world-changing ramifications with multiple viewpoints. Not always, but I'd say this is a common approach. I'm fine with journeys and such being a part of fantasy, but I do agree that in a genre where anything can happen, I'd hope more people would explore other options. They're out there for sure, you just have to dig a bit more.

I feel like I have one "journey" book in me and then that will be enough. My current novel isn't so much a journey novel, but it does involved my MC going to places to help clear her name, despite her being the most hated person in the known world.


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## Eagle (Oct 19, 2013)

My one would certainly be the concept of a 'Chosen One' too. Nothing can further remove any sense of threat or peril from a story than an infallible prophecy that always gets fulfilled, and nothing ruins a character more than him or her being a success, not through any development or action of their own making, but because some powerful god/prophet/priest/thing said he would. The immediate writer who comes to mind in this regard is David Eddings, and I didn't enjoy the Belgariad partly for this reason.


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## Svrtnsse (Oct 19, 2013)

I'm picking "Strange Spellings" it's a pet peeve of mine. Whether or not the strange spelling is accurate or not it still ruins the experience for me. It stings my eyes and it breaks my immersion in a way none of the other options do. It makes me feel like the writer is a hack and a cop-out who tries to make his characters seem more exotic by spelling their names in incomprehensible ways.

Note that this applies even in cases where the spelling is correct for the situation/language and it's my own ignorance of the language that makes the name seem weird.


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## glutton (Oct 19, 2013)

I picked 'women serve minor roles' for obvious reasons.


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## Saigonnus (Oct 19, 2013)

I also picked the "standard" non-humans, as it annoys me more than any of the others. I also chose the farmer turned hero, which I was even annoyed about with Wheel of Time... he was a shepherd, but that's nothing more than a sheep farmer.


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## Feo Takahari (Oct 19, 2013)

I picked stereotypical non-humans and the Chosen One. For the former, it's really just elves that I hate--as I've mentioned elsewhere, I think they tend to be all tell and no show (e.g. saying that they're more compassionate than humans while demonstrating no compassion towards humans.) The latter ties into fatalism, which I've noticed tends to be much more accurate if you replace every instance of "fate" in the associated book with "plot," and its plural "the fates" with "the author." (In other words, it's too freaking _easy_--things should happen because they're the logical result of prior events, not because they need to happen to set up the future events you've "fated.")


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## Philip Overby (Oct 20, 2013)

I've always found the concept of The Fates (like these beings that create your path and cut your thread) really interesting. It would be cool if a Chosen One character was fated to save the world, but instead went after The Fates and tried to kill them to change his path. But yeah, I'm not into the normal Chosen One sort of story either.


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## Chilari (Oct 20, 2013)

It was difficult to only pick two, but I went for women serving minor roles (I want to read more about cool women, I never seem to see many in what people ask me to review - even with this specified as something I'm looking for in the sidebar of my blog), and farm boy becomes hero. This one I find annoying because people seem to think it's the only way "insignificant character to society makes a difference" can be done; but really, there are numerous professions someone who comes from the peasant class of society could do. He (and it usually is a he) could be a household servant, a shop boy, a delivery boy, a smith's apprentice (okay, this one is common), a carpenter, a potter, a stableboy, a butcher's boy, one of those people who takes human excremement outside the city (I think they are euphemistically called gong farmers). He could work in a laundry, a tannery, a school, a moneylenders, the local amphiteatre or stadium, a brothel even. But nope, always a farm boy.


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## Philip Overby (Oct 20, 2013)

> one of those people who takes human excrement outside the city (I think they are euphemistically called gong farmers)



Gong farmer becomes a hero. Think of all the crap he'll have to go through. 

...

But yeah, I agree that anything other than a farm boy might be interesting. The over-exposure of kings, queens, knights, and princesses maybe should have been on the list as well. I'd love to see more characters not necessarily even discard their former job and become a hero slaying dragons. It would be cool for me to just even see a stable boy who becomes a local celebrity because he can tame any horse there is. Or a maid who saves her boss from assassination and later becomes a target herself. To me characters don't always need to transcend their jobs in order to be heroes. They don't necessarily have to learn how to use a sword or axe or whatever else either.


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## Nihal (Oct 20, 2013)

Phil, I think that's why most farm boys that become heroes are young children or teenagers, making these stories also the coming of age type. It's not a job they picked up themselves and they're in the ideal age to try new things, discover the world change and become themselves, bla bla bla.

I would be curious about a "farmer grandpa becomes the hero" story. xD


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## Philip Overby (Oct 20, 2013)

Nihal, that makes sense about the coming of age part. But I don't really know why every boy or girl has to go on some journey to fight an evil army and a bunch of demons when they could just as well deal with local issues in their own town. Can't a smith's apprentice find out he really wants to be a bard or a seamstress's daughter wants to stitch up wounds instead of sewing the same old dresses? And if you want to bring magic or monsters into it, you could have a young dragon slayer who rather be a carpenter or a war sorceress that wants to use her magic to entertain children instead of blazing enemies on the battlefield. The coming of age may be realizing the life of a hero is not for them, that they rather live a simple life doing tangible work. I don't know, I guess one thing I'm interested in is more localized fantasy. I like epics now and again, but a self-contained story would be nice.

And grandpa farmer turned hero was kind of an idea I had a while back. This giant eyeball creature just appears near this old man's farm and he has to to figure out how to kill it before it reaches the main township. I was going to make it into a manga for myself with no dialogue, but I never got around to it.


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## Xitra_Blud (Oct 20, 2013)

Aw man! My story has a "the choses one". :'(


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## Feo Takahari (Oct 20, 2013)

Xitra_Blud said:


> Aw man! My story has a "the choses one". :'(



The question is who chose him. Did some force specifically pick him? If so, what's its long-term goal, and is that a goal he'd support? If not, what makes him the right person at the right time? (I don't think the concept's completely unworkable--for instance, I have a story where the villain chooses his own heroes, picking ones strong enough to beat his minions, but with enough of an obvious weakness that he can beat them personally.)


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## GeekDavid (Oct 20, 2013)

I plan on having a play on the "chosen one" in my NaNo WIP (should we start calling that an NWIP?).

Basically, at some point my hero is going to ask the old wise wizard if he is the "chosen one." Then the old wise wizard will laugh and say something like, "You're in the right place at the right time. Does that mean we've been waiting for you for generations? Heavens no."


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## Xitra_Blud (Oct 21, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> The question is who chose him. Did some force specifically pick him? If so, what's its long-term goal, and is that a goal he'd support? If not, what makes him the right person at the right time? (I don't think the concept's completely unworkable--for instance, I have a story where the villain chooses his own heroes, picking ones strong enough to beat his minions, but with enough of an obvious weakness that he can beat them personally.)



He was chosen by the world they live in. The world is kind of like their god. It doesn't talk or anything but in a sense it's "alive". It chooses everyone's fate. It's one of those stories where you have to put the puzzle pieces together so you don't realize that he is blessed until the end unless you can figure it out.


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## SeverinR (Oct 21, 2013)

Top 3:
Women minor rolls
Tolkien ripoffs
Stereotypical non-humans.


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## teacup (Oct 21, 2013)

I think cliches can be a good thing to play on in fantasy.
For one example, my story takes place after the Chosen Hero has defeated the evil overlord. 28 years after the hero's death, to be exact.

So for this reason I don't hate any of them (except Tolkien ripoffs and women being only love interests/support characters, which, done right, even those could probably be played with to make something good.)


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## Chilari (Oct 22, 2013)

It is telling that "European settings" is the only one without a vote yet. I wonder why that is? I think part of it might be the scope allowed by "European settings" - from prehistory, through Greek and Roman civilisations, dark ages, medieval, rennaissance, Napoleonic, Victorian to modern, there's a lot of time periods to draw from. Plus many of us are either European of or European descent and we're all communicating in a language from north western Europe. We have this context and this shared history we're drawing upon. It is nice to see the odd book using a culture which does not obviously draw upon some form of European culture (I'm reading one now, in fact), but I don't see a problem with books that do.

What I have a problem with is underdeveloped worlds created by people who don't understand the cultures they are drawing upon. And that can happen for any culture the writer chooses to draw upon.


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## Darkblade (Oct 22, 2013)

I voted other because I can't choose between the options listed. I take issue with everything on that list except Chosen Ones, Evil Overlords and Farm Boy Heroes, those three are classics for a reason. I don't really care for odd spellings but it's not a hot button issue for me I can take it or leave it.

Everything else most of the time comes from lazy writers never straying too far from a comfort zone that has over time become something of an impenetrable wall within the genre limiting it's overall potential to be anything it pleases in favour of retreading the same kinds of stories over and over again.


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## Feo Takahari (Oct 22, 2013)

Chilari said:


> It is telling that "European settings" is the only one without a vote yet. I wonder why that is? I think part of it might be the scope allowed by "European settings" - from prehistory, through Greek and Roman civilisations, dark ages, medieval, rennaissance, Napoleonic, Victorian to modern, there's a lot of time periods to draw from. Plus many of us are either European of or European descent and we're all communicating in a language from north western Europe. We have this context and this shared history we're drawing upon. It is nice to see the odd book using a culture which does not obviously draw upon some form of European culture (I'm reading one now, in fact), but I don't see a problem with books that do.
> 
> What I have a problem with is underdeveloped worlds created by people who don't understand the cultures they are drawing upon. And that can happen for any culture the writer chooses to draw upon.



I suppose there's room for a complaint about fantasy Europe not feeling like real Europe. (In particular, writers often leave out the influence regions outside of Europe had upon Europeans--the Silk Road, the Moorish invasion, even the Crusades.)


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## Feo Takahari (Oct 22, 2013)

Xitra_Blud said:


> He was chosen by the world they live in. The world is kind of like their god. It doesn't talk or anything but in a sense it's "alive". It chooses everyone's fate. It's one of those stories where you have to put the puzzle pieces together so you don't realize that he is blessed until the end unless you can figure it out.



Sorry I missed this earlier.

This still invites the question, what does the world want? If it chooses everyone's fate, why did it fate there to be a villain in the first place? In other words, why is there a story, _discounting_ the fact that you need a story? (I don't mean to be harsh, but the more you can explain the existence of the story in _in-universe_ terms--the more you can make it so that, from an in-universe perspective, it was necessary that the story had to proceed the way it did--the more alive and real your story will feel.)


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## Lohengrin (Oct 23, 2013)

I understand the argument about how cliches can be a good thing, but I just voted for the ones *I* am tired of reading. The Chosen One... oh please not again, when I read something among these lines I roll my eyes and skip the book. The Perfect elves too, I'm so tired of the blonde bright and high skinny guys who have all the wisdom in the world, are perfect soldiers and have magic...


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