# what's your opinion on using anime like colored hair in fantasy?



## valiant12 (Jun 9, 2015)

And not natural eye colors too. In my WIP I plan on having some characters with unnatural hair colors- either dyed with magic or with potions made by alchemists. Maybe some nonhuman characters who try to pass as a human may use the same magic (or tech I haven't decided if I want the hair dye to be magical or mundane) as part of their disguise. Another idea I have is to rewrite my last short story and make everybody with colorful eyes and hair. It's part of the lore of that particular story that humans in that world have slightly different physiology than humans on earth so why not make them visually different.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 9, 2015)

I have no problems with it if it makes sense in the context of the story. So, if the hair dying meant was a result of societal impulses or something that would be interesting to explore. Eye color changes don't matter much _if_ you have a reason for the changes.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 9, 2015)

My opinion is positive since I'm doing this as well in my work. 

With my world I'm trying to avoid the idea of "races" at all, so I'm also avoiding physical characteristics of races such as certain hair and eye colors being associated with race. Every single person in my world is a member of an order of god-like beings and their physical characteristics are more dependent on their individual divine nature than anything else.


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## Penpilot (Jun 9, 2015)

Sure. Works for me. And apparently it works for GRRM, too. Here's a description of Daario Naharis taken from a wiki.

Daario keeps his beard cut in three prongs, all dyed blue. His eyes are blue and his curly hair is dyed blue. His mustachios are painted gold and he has a large, curving nose. He is lithe, smooth skinned, has a golden tooth and dresses in loud colors and finery.


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## Jay_Ehm (Jun 9, 2015)

Considering this is the genre of fantasy you're talking about, anything's really possible! Give your characters whatever hair color you want. 

However, as for my personal opinion on anime hair colors in fantasy I prefer more natural hair colors you would find on Earth, dyed or not. If dying their hair bright blue fits the character, I'll be okay with it though. And that's not saying I can't enjoy stories/series/anime where the characters have weird hair colors- I've started watching One Piece this summer and there are quite a few examples of characters with weird hair colors. That hasn't prevented me from enjoying it, it's quickly becoming one of my favorite animes I've seen. There really isn't much of any other reason for my feelings on the subject other than personal preferences, I just tend to prefer more subdued color palettes over brightly-colored ones in most cases.


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## X Equestris (Jun 9, 2015)

I don't mind it, as long as it fits the tone of the story and world.  If your main character is the only person in the world with an unusual hair color, there may be a problem.


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## Queshire (Jun 10, 2015)

Frankly I'm against it in general. Anime and manga are primarily visual mediums so it takes no extra effort to give them an unusual hair color. Prose isn't a visual medium so giving them an unusual hair color adds yet another descriptor in addition to everything else you have to tell the reader, and generally a person's hair color just isn't important enough to warrant that.

If the hair color signifies something then that could be different. If say red hair means someone is a fire mage and someone with blue is a water mage then yeah, there's no problem with that. However after you explain that it'd probably be better to just refer to them as fire mages or water mages and leave it to the reader to fill in the hair color based off what you already told them. Hair color just isn't that important.


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## valiant12 (Jun 10, 2015)

X Equestris said:


> I don't mind it, as long as it fits the tone of the story and world.  If your main character is the only person in the world with an unusual hair color, there may be a problem.



I'm not sure it fits the tone of the story. The story is pretty dark- it revolves around the murder of a wealthy noble and the main character is accused of it. And the lore is definitely dark- it features strange monsters appearing from nowhere and killing people as the main attraction and also wars, nasty disease, scheming nobles, crazy necromancers, etc.. The main character is the only person with brown hair and brown eyes. That combination is very rare in his world.


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## Miskatonic (Jun 10, 2015)

Not a fan. To each their own.


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## valiant12 (Jun 10, 2015)

Queshire said:


> Frankly I'm against it in general. Anime and manga are primarily visual mediums so it takes no extra effort to give them an unusual hair color. Prose isn't a visual medium so giving them an unusual hair color adds yet another descriptor in addition to everything else you have to tell the reader, and generally a person's hair color just isn't important enough to warrant that.
> 
> If the hair color signifies something then that could be different. If say red hair means someone is a fire mage and someone with blue is a water mage then yeah, there's no problem with that. However after you explain that it'd probably be better to just refer to them as fire mages or water mages and leave it to the reader to fill in the hair color based off what you already told them. Hair color just isn't that important.



That's not a bad idea, but there are no mages in that world, and I personally never use people who specialise in one kind of magic so much that they dress in colors associated with that magic.


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## Gurkhal (Jun 10, 2015)

For myself I hate it, but I will try to avoid judging others for it.


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## Tom (Jun 10, 2015)

Same here. But, as others have said, it's your choice, so more power to you. 

Just keep in mind that giving your characters anime-like hair and eye colors may dissuade some people from reading your work. Generally, when I pick up a book or find a story online, I put it down or hit the back button if the characters have unrealistic hair or eye colors. Nothing wrong with that inherently, but it's a pretty big trope among Mary Sue stories to give the Sue in question unusual physical features so she's that much more Speshul. Though your characters may not be (and most likely are not!) Sues, just seeing that association would be enough to turn me off the story.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 10, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> Same here. But, as others have said, it's your choice, so more power to you.
> 
> Just keep in mind that giving your characters anime-like hair and eye colors may dissuade some people from reading your work. Generally, when I pick up a book or find a story online, I put it down or hit the back button if the characters have unrealistic hair or eye colors. Nothing wrong with that inherently, but it's a pretty big trope among Mary Sue stories to give the Sue in question unusual physical features so she's that much more Speshul. Though your characters may not be (and most likely are not!) Sues, just seeing that association would be enough to turn me off the story.



But doesn't this depend on if it makes societal sense, so a rich person has gold dyed hair, a wizard blue, a warrior red, and a commoner has no change in hair color? Because if the OP is doing something like that I would accept because if everyone is Speshul (maniacal laugh) no one will be.


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## Svrtnsse (Jun 10, 2015)

You can do whatever you want as long as it fits the setting. Here's a semi-relevant excerpt from my WIP:



> “Basically, they saw me coming there looking like a successful business professional instead of my usual punked out self. They thought I'd lost my individuality and succumbed to the curse of the city – whatever that is.”
> 
> “Oh, I see.” Enar laughed. “They thought you'd been assimilated or something.”
> 
> ...



Okay, so it's semi-humorous in nature, but it's not meant to make fun of the question. In my setting, this works, because there's a reason for it. Sure, the color is artificial, but it's definitely there, and it's something the characters have experience with and have seen and dealt with.


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## Tom (Jun 10, 2015)

@Brian: Ahh, I see what you did there. 

My objections to it are purely personal. If the screwy hair color is an established part of the OP's world, then I have no objections to it as a narrative device. Not everyone's going to hate it, after all. I just don't like crazy hair colors because I've grown cynical and hateful from reading too much bad fan fiction. 

As an aside, I know it's dumb to keep reading badfic even though I hate it. I just can't stop! Once you give in to the Trainwreck Syndrome, there's no going back.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 10, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> @Brian: Ahh, I see what you did there.
> 
> My objections to it are purely personal. If the screwy hair color is an established part of the OP's world, then I have no objections to it as a narrative device. Not everyone's going to hate it, after all. I just don't like crazy hair colors because I've grown cynical and hateful from reading too much bad fan fiction.
> 
> As an aside, I know it's dumb to keep reading badfic even though I hate it. I just can't stop! Once you give in to the Trainwreck Syndrome, there's no going back.



I get that. I have the same problems with youtube comments, people talking law and politics that really shouldn't, and the comment sections of any vaccine article.


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## valiant12 (Jun 11, 2015)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> But doesn't this depend on if it makes societal sense, so a rich person has gold dyed hair, a wizard blue, a warrior red, and a commoner has no change in hair color? Because if the OP is doing something like that I would accept because if everyone is Speshul (maniacal laugh) no one will be.



In my short story the colorful hair is naturally occurring. And yes nobody is special, people on that world are so accustomed to the hair and eyes diversity that they dont pay any attention to it, and they don't think about the differences between there world and our earth - that would be weird and unrealistic.


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## valiant12 (Jun 11, 2015)

> but it's a pretty big trope among Mary Sue stories to give the Sue in question unusual physical features so she's that much more Speshul. Though your characters may not be (and most likely are not!) Sues, just seeing that association would be enough to turn me off the story.


What's with the hate on Mary Sues? The Mary Sue trope can be combined with unreliable narrator- for example, if a character describes himself as a perfect and flawless that is a clever way to show off his flaws like how arrogant, narcissistic and proud he is and why some people hate him


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## Miskatonic (Jun 11, 2015)

valiant12 said:


> What's with the hate on Mary Sues? The Mary Sue trope can be combined with unreliable narrator- for example, if a character describes himself as a perfect and flawless that is a clever way to show off his flaws like how arrogant, narcissistic and proud he is and why some people hate him



Then I imagine it would no longer fit the description of Mary Sue.


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## Nimue (Jun 11, 2015)

Definitely something fun to play around with, and it could add spice to the visuals of your world! It wouldn't work in a strictly historically-based fantasy, but since you have a lot of non-humans or alternate humans, I don't see why not.

The caveat here is that you don't want to make it seem like only Important/Interesting/Special characters have brightly colored hair and eyes, and everyone else is normal and "boring" because that has been done to death.  Otherwise your story might stir up shades of bad fanfic and anime cliche.  Time for a rousing game of Spot the Anime Protagonist!


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## Tom (Jun 11, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> Then I imagine it would no longer fit the description of Mary Sue.



Exactly. The difference between Mary Sue and unreliable narrator is that the Mary Sue is upheld by the author as perfect. He or she can do no wrong, there are no consequences to his or her actions, he or she is often ridiculously overpowered and inexplicably good at everything, and characters who don't like the Mary Sue are either punished, shown to be total idiots (or evil), or are converted by the Sue's sheer awesomeness. Often something happens in the story to prove to everyone that the Sue is the most Speshul and amazing character. I like to call that "Word of God", since I can just see the author in the background, going, "See? See?! Of course he/she's the best!"

In my opinion, the Mary Sue trope is defined by its lack of self-awareness. A Mary Sue's author doesn't know (or want to know) that their character is unrealistic, and often gives the Sue faux flaws to prove that he or she isn't perfect. 

If the author is aware their character's too perfect, they're either setting that character up for some massive development, or are playing the Sue trope ironically. I've done that a few times myself; it can be fun.


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## X Equestris (Jun 11, 2015)

valiant12 said:


> What's with the hate on Mary Sues? The Mary Sue trope can be combined with unreliable narrator- for example, if a character describes himself as a perfect and flawless that is a clever way to show off his flaws like how arrogant, narcissistic and proud he is and why some people hate him



That character is then no longer a Mary Sue/Gary Stu.  Sues are treated by the story as perfect, and whatever flaws they have tend to not actually be flaws.  Most of the time, any character that dislikes the Sue is automatically a bad person.

Edit: Ninja'd


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## Mythopoet (Jun 11, 2015)

X Equestris said:


> and whatever flaws they have tend to not actually be flaws.



Yeah, Mary Sue "flaws" tend to be the "Oops, I'm slightly clumsy, but everyone thinks it's absolutely adorable and loves me all the more for it" kind of "flaws".


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## Tom (Jun 11, 2015)

Mythopoet said:


> Yeah, Mary Sue "flaws" tend to be the "Oops, I'm slightly clumsy, but everyone thinks it's absolutely adorable and loves me all the more for it" kind of "flaws".



Oh hey, Bella Swan! I'd recognize you anywhere.


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## Miskatonic (Jun 11, 2015)

Nimue said:


> Definitely something fun to play around with, and it could add spice to the visuals of your world! It wouldn't work in a strictly historically-based fantasy, but since you have a lot of non-humans or alternate humans, I don't see why not.
> 
> The caveat here is that you don't want to make it seem like only Important/Interesting/Special characters have brightly colored hair and eyes, and everyone else is normal and "boring" because that has been done to death.  Otherwise your story might stir up shades of bad fanfic and anime cliche.  Time for a rousing game of Spot the Anime Protagonist!



My thoughts exactly.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 11, 2015)

Mythopoet said:


> Yeah, Mary Sue "flaws" tend to be the "Oops, I'm slightly clumsy, but everyone thinks it's absolutely adorable and loves me all the more for it" kind of "flaws".



Wait so you're saying that I shouldn't have a character's only flaw be that he loves too much? Dang, I thought that was compelling [/sarcasm]


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## Miskatonic (Jun 11, 2015)

Don't forget to walk around with your mouth partly open and a deer in the headlights stare. Can't imagine anything more attractive to vampires.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 11, 2015)

Mythopoet said:


> Yeah, Mary Sue "flaws" tend to be the "Oops, I'm slightly clumsy, but everyone thinks it's absolutely adorable and loves me all the more for it" kind of "flaws".



So, if I understand correctly, your point is that we shouldn't use Mary Sue characters because, for whatever reason, they're bad?

Then, you refer to Bella Swan, the protagonist of a series that has millions of fans and has made its author gobs and gobs of money, as an example of a Mary Sue.

If Bella Swan is a Mary Sue, then perhaps readers really, really like Mary Sues.  Perhaps we should all use them in our writing.

I'll happily make the same "mistakes" as Stephenie Meyer all day long if I can achieve the same results!


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## Mythopoet (Jun 11, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> So, if I understand correctly, your point is that we shouldn't use Mary Sue characters because, for whatever reason, they're bad?
> 
> Then, you refer to Bella Swan, the protagonist of a series that has millions of fans and has made its author gobs and gobs of money, as an example of a Mary Sue.
> 
> ...



I never referred to Bella Swan. That was Tom Nimenai. I've never read any of the Twilight books or seen any of the movies so I have no idea what she's like. 

When I wrote that example I had more in mind some of the anime reverse harem protags (meaning, one prominent girl protag who is surrounded by a group of male characters who are all in love with her) who have a bad habit of tripping over everything and also over nothing just so one of their love interests can catch them and they can look meaningfully into each other's eyes. But other than their constant need to have a man catch them before they fall over, they tend to be practically perfect in ever way, hence just everyone being desperately in love with them. It's not a trope I'm a fan of and it seems to have a more limited audience than Twilight, for what it's worth.


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## X Equestris (Jun 11, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> So, if I understand correctly, your point is that we shouldn't use Mary Sue characters because, for whatever reason, they're bad?
> 
> Then, you refer to Bella Swan, the protagonist of a series that has millions of fans and has made its author gobs and gobs of money, as an example of a Mary Sue.
> 
> ...



You know why Twilight was successful with Bella?  Because she's largely a blank slate for the reader to project themselves onto.  That's how much of the romance genre works with its protagonists.  Another factor behind Twilight's success was the vast Hatedom it spawned.  A lot of people wanted to see how bad it was.  

The issue with Mary Sues as protagonists is that they're boring.  A story needs tension, and Mary Sues tend to destroy that.  It's hard to have tension when the character doesn't ever struggle with anything.  They have a habit of smashing the suspension of disbelief to pieces.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 11, 2015)

I think the Mary Sue is popular if and only if the Sue is so bland, so blank a slate, that readers can insert themselves into the story. This is generally only popular in YA stories, like _Eragon_ or _Twilight_. They are a means of wish fulfillment and escapism for people who are not perfect (e.g. all of us) and possess a certain amount of angst (e.g. every teenager). That doesn't mean the trope is a good one to use. In fact most strongly caution against it because you're chances of pulling a Twilight using this trope are...minimal.

I done been ninja'd.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 11, 2015)

> You know why Twilight was successful with Bella? Because she's largely a blank slate for the reader to project themselves onto.



I don't see her as a blank slate at all. Or a Mary Sue.



> Another factor behind Twilight's success was the vast Hatedom it spawned. A lot of people wanted to see how bad it was.



I quite enjoyed Twilight.  It was a fun read.  Kept me turning the pages.


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## Nimue (Jun 11, 2015)

Oh, come now.  You can't get to the third paragraph of a Showcase post, but this opening hooked you? 



> My mother drove me to the airport with the windows rolled down. It was seventy-five degrees in Phoenix, the sky a perfect, cloudless blue. I was wearing my favorite shirt — sleeveless, white eyelet lace; I was wearing it as a farewell gesture. My carry-on item was a parka.



Twilight was a phenomenon born of timing and marketing as well as content, and imitators are a dime a dozen.  I daresay it's not the best writing model to chase after.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 11, 2015)

Nimue,

I've found that getting inside a character's head really works to engage my attention.  _Midnight Sun _does that better than any book I've ever read.  Period.

EDIT:

In fact, think about this: no book I've ever read that was authored by someone on MS has provided the same entertainment value to me as the Twilight series did.  Meyer obviously did something right.


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## Miskatonic (Jun 11, 2015)

Nimue said:


> Oh, come now.  You can't get to the third paragraph of a Showcase post, but this opening hooked you?
> 
> 
> 
> Twilight was a phenomenon born of timing and marketing as well as content, and imitators are a dime a dozen.  I daresay it's not the best writing model to chase after.



The demographic was teenage girls starting to have romantic ideas about boys and their middle aged mothers.


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## Nimue (Jun 11, 2015)

Ooookay.  I'm going to suggest you read the Vlad Taltos books by Stephen Brust, because...because there are other options for you out there, and then I'm going to back away from this conversation slowly.

Edit: Yes, I understand why you might not agree with all the Twilight backlash--it was never _that_ awful, just that popular.  But saying "If it was successful, it must be good"/"If you want to be successful you need to write like that" isn't necessarily true.  "Awful" and "Ideal" aren't the only two choices.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 11, 2015)

Nimue said:


> Ooookay.  I'm going to suggest you read the Vlad Taltos books by Stephen Brust, because...because there are other options for you out there, and then I'm going to back away from this conversation slowly.



Again, I enjoyed the crap out of the book.  So did my wife.  So did a lot of people.

I think that the things Meyer did well vastly outweighed her perceived flaws.


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## Tom (Jun 11, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> Again, I enjoyed the crap out of the book.  So did my wife.  So did a lot of people.
> 
> I think that the things Meyer did well vastly outweighed her perceived flaws.



I'm just going to leave this here...Das_Mervin's Twilight Sporkings


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## Miskatonic (Jun 11, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> Again, I enjoyed the crap out of the book.  So did my wife.  So did a lot of people.
> 
> I think that the things Meyer did well vastly outweighed her perceived flaws.



Justin Bieber has millions of fans as well. Same demographic, go figure.


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## X Equestris (Jun 11, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> Again, I enjoyed the crap out of the book.  So did my wife.  So did a lot of people.
> 
> I think that the things Meyer did well vastly outweighed her perceived flaws.



She prided herself on never doing research.  Which resulted in such wonderful gems as an island off the west coast of Brazil( Brazil doesn't have a west coast) and a family keeping their wealth through the Great Depression by being involved in financial institutions( financial institutions were easily the hardest hit by the stock market crash).  You'll never be able to convince me that that is a good approach.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 11, 2015)

X Equestris said:


> She prided herself on never doing research.  Which resulted in such wonderful gems as an island off the west coast of Brazil...



Wait, what? That's crazy. That's not even research. That's basic geography.


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## Tom (Jun 11, 2015)

Then there's the eight-pointed snowflake that Renesmee (stupidest name ever, I swear) catches in Breaking Dawn.

_Eight-pointed snowflake._

She played the "special snowflake" trope straight.

Gah!


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## Legendary Sidekick (Jun 11, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> _Eight-pointed snowflake._


Is this a recent book? My guess is that the author has daughters ages seven and under and had to go to a bunch of _Frozen _themed birthday parties where well-meaning dads did the research to teach the little girls how to make six-pointed snowflakes, but the "princesses" folded the paper the easy way that makes eight-pointed snowflakes.

I should've told those pigtailed punks how the extra points would make the snowflakes so sharp they'd saw your skin off like in this cartoon:






Then maybe the little $#!%s would've made proper snowflakes. Is that what I gotta do next year? Scare children into not botching up arts and crafts?!

*

On-topic part begins here:*
@OP, just to be a good little mod I'll post on-topic: any color hair and eyes for the characters are cool, since you're trying to give the readers a visual, be true to it. Give the readers the imagery you want to give.

I personally like the idea of pink, purple and teal hair for pixies.


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## glutton (Jun 11, 2015)

In defense of BWFoster, I haven't read the books, but I've seen several of the Twilight movies except for the last couple and Bella didn't come off as that much of an obvious Mary Sue to me. I mean, I get the story isn't as combat-oriented as the stuff I usually prefer to write/read/watch, but... Bella can't even kick the bad vampires' butts while still a human lol. That would be one of the first abilities that comes to mind for an all-out Sue.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 11, 2015)

There are tons of definitions about what is and is not a sue. In face I think she fits under the classic sue as defined here. Mary Sue Classic - TV Tropes


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## X Equestris (Jun 11, 2015)

glutton said:


> In defense of BWFoster, I haven't read the books, but I've seen several of the Twilight movies except for the last couple and Bella didn't come off as that much of an obvious Mary Sue to me. I mean, I get the story isn't as combat-oriented as the stuff I usually prefer to write/read/watch, but... Bella can't even kick the bad vampires' butts while still a human lol. That would be one of the first abilities that comes to mind for an all-out Sue.



She's not nearly as over the top as most Sues.  If she is one, and that point is certainly debatable, she is a more subtle type.


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## valiant12 (Jun 12, 2015)

X Equestris said:


> She prided herself on never doing research.  Which resulted in such wonderful gems as an island off the west coast of Brazil( Brazil doesn't have a west coast) and a family keeping their wealth through the Great Depression by being involved in financial institutions( financial institutions were easily the hardest hit by the stock market crash).  You'll never be able to convince me that that is a good approach.



I think she was trolling her fans. You don't need research to know where Brazils is on the map. And sparkling vampires, really? By the way, how is Twilight narrated. If it is narrated from Bella's perspective, maybe she is not mentioning the fact that she is a gold-digger with a drug problem and most of the books are a mix of unreliable narratives and drugs induced hallucinations. Things like the sparkling vampires, geographic nonsenses, snowflakes, the fact that her strongest character trait is that her blood is apparently tastier than that of the average person, are delivered hints left by the author for the most observant  fans.


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## Miskatonic (Jun 12, 2015)

valiant12 said:


> I think she was trolling her fans. You don't need research to know where Brazils is on the map. And sparkling vampires, really? By the way, how is Twilight narrated. If it is narrated from Bella's perspective, maybe she is not mentioning the fact that she is a gold-digger with a drug problem and most of the books are a mix of unreliable narratives and drugs induced hallucinations. Things like the sparkling vampires, geographic nonsenses, snowflakes, the fact that her strongest character trait is that her blood is apparently tastier than that of the average person, are delivered hints left by the author for the most observant  fans.



It's pretty evident that she was projecting herself into the book and was actually in love with the Edward character she created. Even the guy that played him was picking up on that. She's not clever, she's a crappy author.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 12, 2015)

Maybe y'all approach things differently than me.  When I see a highly successful author, I want to know, "What did they do to become so successful?"

I think all of you are way off base if you think that Meyer's success was solely due to some kind of magical marketing.

The fact is that she connected with her core audience in a way that few authors do.  If I could connect with my readers as well as she did her, I'd no longer be an "aspiring" author.

Also, do any of you fear that dogging on a successful author like you're doing when you're trying to become an author makes you sound kinda envious?


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## Miskatonic (Jun 12, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> Maybe y'all approach things differently than me.  When I see a highly successful author, I want to know, "What did they do to become so successful?"
> 
> I think all of you are way off base if you think that Meyer's success was solely due to some kind of magical marketing.
> 
> ...



Tweens are pretty much the easiest demographic to market to. It doesn't take any expertise to exploit their parent,s wallets with boy bands, teen heartthrobs and relationship drama dealing with male characters they fall in love with because their hormones are starting to play a part. 

Envious of Stephanie Meyers? Not even going to dignify that with an answer.


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## Nimue (Jun 12, 2015)

I'm gonna repost something that I said already, since it was a late edit and I doubt anyone saw it:


> Edit: Yes, I understand why you might not agree with all the Twilight backlash--it was never that awful, just that popular. But saying "If it was successful, it must be good"/"If you want to be successful you need to write like that" isn't necessarily true. "Awful" and "Ideal" aren't the only two choices.



I don't hate Twilight nearly as much as I did when I was a teenager at the height of the book craze and felt affronted that people kept suggesting I read it.  But the idea that you can't criticize a book until you've written something just as successful is a bit daft.  Maybe don't write it off completely, (and many people have done that with Twilight) but surely we don't have to swallow its strategy whole.

If you want to sell large numbers based on genre and strategy regardless of quality, by all means paranormal YA romance with an idealized/homogenized protagonist is probably the way to go.  Does that mean that Twilight must be _the best_ book out there?  I think that saying that is needlessly contrarian.  It's not something that would work for everyone.  For one thing, you should love and enjoy what you're writing.  Meyer clearly did.  But someone writing in that vein solely because they feel they should might not.  And I think that lack of passion takes some of the spark out of the writing itself.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 12, 2015)

Man, this poor thread has gotten so off topic. Are there even any characters in Twilight with funky hair colors?


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## Nimue (Jun 12, 2015)

I think Twilight is a bit of an insta-derail topic on any book-based forum. 

There is!  ...right? Alice, the slightly-goth/scene vampire?  (Or maybe she just has blue streaks in the movies?)  I...don't think her dyed hair made me think less of the book, so there's that!  She was one of the more interesting characters, actually.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 12, 2015)

> But the idea that you can't criticize a book until you've written something just as successful is a bit daft. Maybe don't write it off completely, (and many people have done that with Twilight) but surely we don't have to swallow its strategy whole.



Not saying you can't criticize something, just saying that a lot of the posters seem to be trying to write it off completely.  She connected me to her characters in a way that few other authors have managed to do.  I only wish I could do that as well as her, and I seriously doubt that anyone else commenting on this thread has the ability to either.


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## Ben.D (Jun 12, 2015)

I would say if you can justify the color of their hair in the evolution of their species or cultural practices. For example if a group of people come from a warmer climate they tend to be taller, have darker skin ect... Also if a religion or other form of cultural practice dictates a specific color of hair then it makes sense. In short I would say don't give your character a specific characteristic without a reason.


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## X Equestris (Jun 12, 2015)

Ben.D said:


> I would say if you can justify the color of their hair in the evolution of their species or cultural practices. For example if a group of people come from a warmer climate they tend to be taller, have darker skin ect... Also if a religion or other form of cultural practice dictates a specific color of hair then it makes sense. In short I would say don't give your character a specific characteristic without a reason.



Certainly.  For example, a caste based society where people dyed their hair based on their caste would make sense.  It's really when you have a character with some weird, one of a kind, naturally occuring hair color that you have problems.


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## X Equestris (Jun 12, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> Maybe y'all approach things differently than me.  When I see a highly successful author, I want to know, "What did they do to become so successful?"
> 
> I think all of you are way off base if you think that Meyer's success was solely due to some kind of magical marketing.
> 
> ...



She successfully appealed to the romance genre's base.  Even then, it took a while for it to turn into the craze it did.  

Envious of Meyers? No, not at all.  She might be successful, but I'm still going to point out grave issues with her work.  By all means, if you want to make a lot of money, romance/paranormal romance is the way to go.  There's a reason the romance genre is so profitable.  But let's not pretend that profitability=quality.  E.L. James made a lot of money by repurposing her Twilight fanfic as Fifty Shades of Grey, but the writing has a great deal of issues.  So I can see what those successful authors did, but their choices aren't for me.


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## Miskatonic (Jun 12, 2015)

As far as hair color goes, just look at the punk rock fashion of the 70's and 80's. It was about rebellion against the norms of society.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 12, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> Also, do any of you fear that dogging on a successful author like you're doing when you're trying to become an author makes you sound kinda envious?



At the risk of derailing this thread even more I'm going to address this point in brief here and then open up a new topic to address this point in more detail in the writing questions forum. No, it's not envious it's good practice. By seeking flaws and learning to combat them we learn to become better writers ourselves.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 12, 2015)

Brian Scott Allen said:


> At the risk of derailing this thread even more I'm going to address this point in brief here and then open up a new topic to address this point in more detail in the writing questions forum. No, it's not envious it's good practice. By seeking flaws and learning to combat them we learn to become better writers ourselves.



I agree that it's good practice if employed the way you suggest.

I do not feel, however, that the comments in the thread thus far are coming across that way (by and large, anyway).


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 12, 2015)

^ I'm not sure about that conclusion. Especially as it relates to discussing the Mary Sue. I found it helpful to me. But, that may be because I read through Twilight (a part of it) and really didn't like it. There are a couple of reasons for it (part of which a girl I liked made me read it and that ended in a great big ball of flames) and the other part of it is that I just didn't like Cullen, Swan, and company. But to each their own.

Back on topic. Do whatever you want with hair color just have it make sense and be consistent.


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## valiant12 (Jun 17, 2015)

Ben.D said:


> I would say if you can justify the color of their hair in the evolution of their species or cultural practices. For example if a group of people come from a warmer climate they tend to be taller, have darker skin ect... Also if a religion or other form of cultural practice dictates a specific color of hair then it makes sense. In short I would say don't give your character a specific characteristic without a reason.



There is a reason for the strange hair and eye colors and that is to remind the reader that despite the abundance of similarities between the world where the story take place and earth, that world is not our earth.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jun 17, 2015)

valiant12 said:


> There is a reason for the strange hair and eye colors and that is to remind the reader that despite the abundance of similarities between the world where the story take place and earth, that world is not our earth.



That, I don't feel is enough of a justification for different colored hair, unless you can add in a good reason for the difference within the context of the story and not as it relates to the real world.


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