# My bleeping problem with bleeping profanity



## Androxine Vortex (Mar 31, 2015)

*My problem with profanity*

I can understand how if it is a very tense scene (not just in books but in movies too) and perhaps the hero finds out they were betrayed or loss of a loved one, then they can say expletives. But I see so many books, and movies, and games with just cursing all the time. To me, it shows the author (or creator) couldn't come up with anything more flavorful. I think it was in the new Devil May Cry game where this horrifying and disgusting demon appears before you and it screams, "Whooo the ***** are yoooooooouuuuuuuuu?" (like i said, he was yelling)

But how does that add anything to what's going on? Imagine watching Lord of the Rings: "There is only one lord of the ring...Only one. And he does not motherbleeping share power." *Gandalf flies away. *Saruman "Son of a-"

Just been watching a lot of movies lately and I guess it is just a pet peeve of mine. What are your thoughts? Do you use any, and if so how do you decide if you want to use it and why? I use very little swearing in my books, and even when I do it's just minor things. I don't have a problem with hearing a bad word, I use them myself (I stub my toe a lot) I just don't care for one every couple minutes.


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## Devor (Mar 31, 2015)

Troublesome, troublesome titles . . . .


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## cupiscent (Mar 31, 2015)

Yet imagine the luscious irreverent joyfulness of _The Lies of Locke Lamora_ without the creative use of expletives. I can't. It's just not as fulsomely delightful.

Swearwords, like all words in the English language, can be used poorly, or they can be used elegantly, creatively and to enhance atmosphere and meaning. Any fault lies with the author's use, not with the words themselves.


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## X Equestris (Mar 31, 2015)

I have to agree that it lies in the usage.  If it fits the tone, then it has even better chances of working.


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## Rhizanthella (Mar 31, 2015)

Yeah, and this is why I don't like to go to certain improv shows because people there often lack creativity and resort to swear words and any profanity for humor. 

My brother and I are the same, basically. He does not use curse words because he sees it unnecessary. I rather don't like them at all, probably because of the overuse of them in today's society, but he has said he will only use them if the situation is dire enough, like you really think you're gonna die and this situation is possibly the worst you or any human being might experience. 

Used correctly, swear words can create emphasis on a situation. But used wrongly, you sorta take away from the power that they could hold. I mean, sure, fear of a name only creates fear of the thing itself, and me refusing to use profanity ever can make me seem like a pansy or a goodie-two-shoes, but, hey, that's my life! But by holding back from using certain words, you also give them power to use for more intense situations later. Words are special, use them wisely.


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## Penpilot (Apr 1, 2015)

Drop an F-bomb into LOTR and that will kick the reader right out of the story. Take all the F-bombs out of say Pulp Fiction and it loses something.

Whether cussing is use or not, as mentioned above, depends on your world, the tone you're trying to achieve, and most of all your characters.

It doesn't seem right that Marry Poppins would cuss, but it sure as heck wouldn't seem right if Jules from Pulp Fiction didn't.

Now, just like any other word or phrase, cuss words can be over used, used improperly, and part of the skill of the author is to find the right balance, the right word(s) for the right moment. Like any other element in a story cussing should serve a purpose.

Have the right amount of cussing in a piece and it gives it a nice flavor. Too much, and it's like dumping a truck load of salt into your soup. Too little and it'll seem bland. And as I said, determining the right amount is a skill. In addition, sometimes the right amount is zero.


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## cupiscent (Apr 1, 2015)

Sometimes the point of using expletives is to remove the emphasis from them. To make them a part of the background of a set of characters or a portion of a world. An example that comes to mind here is _Good Will Hunting_, where a set of the characters used language to fence themselves off from the rest of the world by using a variety of spiky expression tools, one of which was swearing a lot. But that also had the effect of drawing _their_ brotherhood closer, and was symptomatic of their banding together against the rest of the hurtful world. (Penpilot's excellent Pulp Fiction example has similar resonances, with the additional element of illustrating a world intended to be shocking and counter to the regular white-bread experience.)

I'll admit: I swear a lot. But as can be evidenced by my relatively length and profanity-free engagement on these boards, I have no trouble expressing myself without swearing. Expletives are another tool in my lexicon, that I enjoy making use of to create interesting effects. Indeed, my husband and I find the juxtaposition of extreme erudition alongside use of swearwords to be aesthetically pleasing, and we are regularly striving to turn a fun, clever and pithy phrase for each other.

I'm not saying excessive swearing can't be unthinking, crude, and unhelpful to a storyteller. Nor am I saying that everyone needs to enjoy it. We're all different, and that's part of the fun of life. I'm just trying to shed a little light on the other side of the fence.


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## Gryphos (Apr 1, 2015)

In my book I have a scene in which the MC is duelling someone and getting his arse handed to him. He gets cut all over, and loses so much blood that he doesn't even have the strength to stand anymore. His opponent asks him whether he's giving up, at which point he drops his sword and glares at her. He says how he's going to kill her, and when she's dead he's not even going to care enough to spit on her corpse; he won't even acknowledge her corpse's existence until someone asks him about her, at which point he'll tell them that she died slowly and painfully and humiliatingly. And when they ask about her final words, he'll tell them that she said absolutely nothing.

How did I make the opponent react to that?

"Well f*ck you too."



			
				Androxine Vortex said:
			
		

> But I see so many books, and movies, and games with just cursing all the time. To me, it shows the author (or creator) couldn't come up with anything more flavorful.



More flavourful that "Come the f*ck in or f*ck the f*ck off"?

Or "f*ckity-bye"?

Or "What is this, _'tinker, tailor, soldier, cunt'_?"

Personally, that dialogue (courtesy of the show 'The Thick of It') is some of the most flavourful and characterful I've heard, especially when spoken by an angry Scottish person.

I really don't understand the objection some people have to swearing. I mean, 'f*ck' is probably one of the most versatile words in the English language. It can be a noun, a verb, an adjective, adverb, or exclamation. It's one thing to say "pass me the milk" but saying "pass me the f*cking milk, you wanking shit-sculptor" has a hell of a lot more impact, and sometimes when writing, impact is what you need.

Now, obviously it would sound really weird for characters in LotR to speak like that (though it would be hilarious). In a setting that allows for it, I would certainly not object to characters swearing all the time. In fact, people in real life often speak like that all the time. 'F*cking' is probably my most used adjective. And, you know, that's not something to be ashamed of. They're words, like any other, words with meaning, works with impact. Saying swearing is unimaginative is like saying using colours is unimaginative. It f*cking ain't.


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## CupofJoe (Apr 1, 2015)

I like the way that swearing was handled on UK TV during the 70s... they just made up their own or appropriated a word from elsewhere [Polari - usually] and then looked around innocently if any one complained.  
_Battlestar Galactica_ has done something this with "Frak"... Everyone know what it means but it is not a real swear word.
In my writing I tend not to use swear words, mainly because my characters don't seem to need to swear. Or when they do it will be a context specific curse... "By Grabthar's hammer, by the suns of Worvan, you shall be avenged".


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## Hainted (Apr 1, 2015)

CupofJoe said:


> I like the way that swearing was handled on UK TV during the 70s... they just made up their own or appropriated a word from elsewhere [Polari - usually] and then looked around innocently if any one complained.
> _Battlestar Galactica_ has done something this with "Frak"... Everyone know what it means but it is not a real swear word.
> In my writing I tend not to use swear words, mainly because my characters don't seem to need to swear. Or when they do it will be a context specific curse... "By Grabthar's hammer, by the suns of Worvan, you shall be avenged".



Smeg from Red Dwarf is my favorite fake curse word of all time.

On a different note sometimes the fake curse or the "By the twisted nipples of the Great She-goat Baa'ewe'ram " type cursing just makes me laugh. It's harder to pull off effectively in my opinion. Cursing is usually based around taboo subjects so, if you're not going to use real ones then make something up that's culture appropriate. (Free-thinker for a traditional insular society for example.)


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## Penpilot (Apr 1, 2015)

Hainted said:


> Smeg from Red Dwarf is my favorite fake curse word of all time.



I heard somewhere that Smeg is short for Smegma.

Smegma - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


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## Gryphos (Apr 1, 2015)

Deleted.

Please keep it PG-13. Nothing excessive, even with "*" substitutions for letters. We all still know what they are.


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## Butterfly (Apr 1, 2015)

Penpilot said:


> I heard somewhere that Smeg is short for Smegma.
> 
> Smegma - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary



It is... and ther reason I can never see me putting one of these in my kitchen... Fridge Freezers - Great Deals On Fridge Freezer Models| Currys


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## Penpilot (Apr 1, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> It is... and ther reason I can never see me putting one of these in my kitchen... Fridge Freezers - Great Deals On Fridge Freezer Models| Currys



Hahhahhahaha.... I just coughed water into my nose... hahaha.


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## Fyle (Apr 5, 2015)

Unless bleeping out is part of the overall style or humor of the writing or script, I chalk it up to wanting to reach a larger audience and sell more to the kids whose parents try to avoid products with curse words.

Many people swear in real life, its just a fact. No reason to bleep it other than to make it family friendly (or as i mentioned above, the rare case when it is part of your style, usually humor)

I think swear words in a Game of Thrones helped break fantasy into the mainstream because it made the characters feel more real. If Sandor Clegane had the catch phrase of :　Dang nab it！Or some toned done version of a curse, it would take away from his raw nature and rebellious attitude. 

F*ck the king works great for him cause it is a swear word.


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## SeverinR (Apr 6, 2015)

Fyle said:


> Unless bleeping out is part of the overall style or humor of the writing or script, I chalk it up to wanting to reach a larger audience and sell more to the kids whose parents try to avoid products with curse words.
> 
> Many people swear in real life, its just a fact. No reason to bleep it other than to make it family friendly (or as i mentioned above, the rare case when it is part of your style, usually humor)
> 
> ...


I think people think we curse more then the average person in history. But I believe people cursed through out history, the words change but the basic idea is still cursing.  

The hound would be rediculous if he used anything other then the proper word he used. 
"Freak the city, freak the King's guard, freak the king." It makes it a childish fit rather then a profound statment of defiance.

That said, over use can still be a problem.


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## Devor (Apr 6, 2015)

SeverinR said:


> I think people think we curse more then the average person in history. But I believe people cursed through out history, the words change but the basic idea is still cursing.



I had a roommate from the Ukraine.  According to him, there are only one or two mild curse words in Ukrainian, but in Russian, cursing is "almost its own language."  So of course they curse in English and Russian.  But to me, that still sounds like a massive swing from language to language.  I'm not sure I would take it for granted that the concept of cursing would be so static throughout time and culture.  I think in some (sub)cultures, they really do curse a lot more or a lot less than others.


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## ascanius (Apr 6, 2015)

In the local dialect here there is a swear word that I hae yet to fully understand, it's a vulgar word for lady parts but depending on the context and how it's used can mean something so different that it looses all vulgarity and is no longer a swear word.  swear words can be very complex depending on use and I feel they do have value within certain contexts.


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## spectre (Apr 6, 2015)

I think it has a place if you're writing a particularly guttural, shady, uncultured, or nasty character but I like it better when "bloody" = "expletive", or "blasted". Innocent cursing. It's more theatric.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Apr 7, 2015)

Doesn't this all depend on context. For example Roshar, a world completely alien to ours, wouldn't have the same swears as here. Or when taking a deity's name in vain your character wouldn't use a Judei-Christian swear if they came from some random planet with no interaction with earth. Also, even in GOT you would never hear Tyrion call a black character the N word. 

Swears, like any word, requires context for their power. Without that I can't support the use of any swear because it's there for shock value and no other purpose.


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## thedarknessrising (Apr 9, 2015)

When I first started getting into writing, I was in middle school. I was working on a spy-fi piece, and I was trying to make it as realistic as I could. Granted, I was only twelve, so I didn't quite have as much understanding of the world of espionage as I sort of do now. I was no Ian Fleming. 

But, because I was trying to make it as real as I understood, I knew I would have to include profane language. The problem was, I was twelve, so I wasn't permitted to say those words by my father (I'm nineteen now and _still_ not able to say those words.) So, as I was beginning to write the story, I had approached my dad and asked if I would be allowed to use obscenities in my writing. He allowed it, saying "People swear. And to ignore that in your writing just wouldn't do your work justice. You may use profanities in your work. But you must not go overboard, and under no circumstances are you to drop any f-bombs. And just because I allow you to write these words, that doesn't mean I am giving you permission to say them."

It's been seven years, and I still follow his rules.


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## studentofrhythm (Apr 11, 2015)

I can't believe nobody's mentioned _Firefly_'s creative cussing: "go ram it," "rutting," "we're humped" etc.  Not to mention all the Chinese.  But they can lay that on a bit thick too.  I'm reading _The Stormlight Archive_ now and getting mighty tired of the frequency with which all the characters keep exclaiming "Storms!"

No, Gandalf doesn't drop F-bombs, but Tolkien's orcs say "damn" at least once, and his trolls say "hell."

Cursing in a fantasy setting is an opportunity for exposition: what are this society's taboos, its values?  What does it mean to break the taboos and subvert the values?  What values and taboos are shared by some people and rejected by others?  What class structures are enforced thereby?  It's also a good opportunity for playing with language.  As long as it's not overdone.


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## MineOwnKing (Apr 11, 2015)

I think the use of profanity has to be judged on a case by case basis. One novel cannot set the bar for another. 

It might depend on the voice and style of the author, but I think some subgenres of Fantasy are more suited to profanity than others. 

Personally I feel like I'm not writing to the best of my ability when profanity slips in.


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