# Using modern slang in Medieval fantasy.



## Zephon (Sep 26, 2012)

"Even in 70 LB's of plate mail his body writhed and squirmed like someone attempting to break dance on 1000 mics of acid."

Okay, the above example is pretty shitty. However it sort of demonstrates the style I'm talking about. It's using modern slang, and sometimes even pop-culture references, while describing a fantastical world, even a medieval one.

In one sense it sort of destroys the reader's literary atmosphere, or perhaps suspension of disbelief (I come from a film background), however in a way it provides a fantastic avenue for humor and entertainment, as lowbrow as it may be.

I understand why many writers may be appalled at the suggestion, but do you think it could work?

And more importantly, has anyone already done this that I don't know about?


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## Steerpike (Sep 26, 2012)

I don't have a problem with it in theory (I say in theory, because I'd have to see the execution), assuming break dancing and acid exist in your fantasy world. If those things or the pop-culture phenomenon you reference don't even exist in that world it would seem a bit silly.


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## Ireth (Sep 26, 2012)

What are your opinions on modern-day humans who are dropped into fantasy worlds making real-world references? I do that a fair bit with the Hawks in my duology; they reference Lord of the Rings, Disney and Harry Potter, among other things. Would that jar with your expectations?


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## Steerpike (Sep 27, 2012)

If they are modern-day humans it makes sense for them to reference modern culture. That's my view.


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## CupofJoe (Sep 27, 2012)

JRRT uses _locomotive_ early in the LoTR [forget the exact use]. For me it would jar to see a modern or pop-culture reference if it was a one off. If it was part of a literary style then the story would probably carry me through.
What gets to me more in fantasy writing is cod medieval "Prithy, for sooth, thy vagabond yonder has entered the ally betwixt the the shoppes" or Americanizations like burglarized [the word is burgled!!!!!] or impact [try affect - unless its an asteroid].
Sorry, but  I still prefer to read UK English and like "s" and "u"...


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## Ravana (Sep 27, 2012)

I try to avoid anachronisms–which in most cases is simple enough to do, as long as you're aware something is a modern reference. Replace "acid" with "ergot" (why not? that's where it's from), and the rest of the simile with something more plausible (no one's likely to look like he's breakdancing on acid when wearing plate, no matter what he's taken… though for that matter, someone break-dancing on acid is highly unlikely to look like he's breakdancing anyway), and you should be set.

As for more generally: if you aren't writing in Medieval English, there isn't much point to worry about avoiding anything _other_ than the obviously modern just because it might not have been part of the language that far back. (And if you _are_ writing in Medieval English, there are only about twelve people who'll ever read it, once you cross-index those who can with those who are interested in reading modern fantasy writing.) It's sort of like all those gripes about Costner not speaking with an English accent in _Robin Hood_: who cares? _No one_ spoke with what we'd recognize as an English accent at the time.

As for who else might have done this: Glen Cook's "Garrett P.I." series uses seemingly anachronistic language frequently… not least in referring to his character as a "P.I." It's a bit harder to tell if he's "breaking" any rules, since the world is a fictitious one, thus not bound by historical precedent; it doesn't seem to have hurt his sales any. Or at least it hasn't stopped him from writing thirteen books in the series to date.

Modern humans dropped into a fantasy world would use what they know: the bigger problem would be communicating at all–since it seems a highly unrealistic expectation that they'd be dropped into a universe where others spoke modern English. (Of course, if they can't communicate, their stories will probably be very short ones… which is why this minor issue is generally ignored.) Having them try to explain their pop references could be fun, anyway.


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## Jess A (Sep 27, 2012)

Steerpike summed up the pop culture references.

I would hate to see something like 'lol' (god forbid) or 'dude' or 'omigod' in a book. I think there are some things which are acceptable and some which are not. 

If you want a good example of a medieval show full of jarring modernisms, watch the 2006 TV show _Robin Hood_. It is meant to be humorous in some ways, so I don't mind it, but it is an example nonetheless. It is expected, so it can work. But in a serious film, I would be very confused by the addition of modern terms.


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## Zero Angel (Sep 27, 2012)

Ravana said:


> Modern humans dropped into a fantasy world would use what they know: the bigger problem would be communicating at all—since it seems a highly unrealistic expectation that they'd be dropped into a universe where others spoke modern English. (Of course, if they can't communicate, their stories will probably be very short ones… which is why this minor issue is generally ignored.) Having them try to explain their pop references could be fun, anyway.



Most stories I read that do this at least have a nod towards it--whether it is some sort of universal translator like the TARDIS does in Doctor Who or magick does in Dickson's Dragon Knight series, a joke made of some sort, "What language would you like me to be speaking?", or rarely, forcing the characters to learn the language of the time, Crichton's Timeline (who holy crap I just found out died 4 years ago!).


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 27, 2012)

I have a different take on it (I think as I kind of skim read the other posts, sorry) than I've seen expressed above.

Presumably, your characters do not exist in historical medieval earth.  That being the case, they probably are not actually speaking English.  You, as the writer, are translating from their language and experience into something that can be read by a person in modern earth.

Given this as the concept, why do you have to write like they speak some kind of ancient English?  Whither thou goest?  No!

The expectation of fantasy readers is probably that you at least make nods to using archaic language.

From a logical standpoint, however, does it make sense to incorporate modern language and pop culture?  I think the argument could be made.


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## Devor (Sep 27, 2012)

It depends on whether these statements are made in dialogue or narration, and whether they fit the character.  Like others have said, it's not remotely unreasonable for a modern character to use those references.  But it's also important to remember, although it's less common nowadays, that sometimes you can have a modern day _narrative voice_ talking about your fantasy events.  If you can establish such a voice successfully, then there's nothing wrong with modern references.

On the other hand, if it's not a decision you've made at the beginning, and you're just throwing one in because it makes you giggle (happens to everyone), then you should probably take it out.


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## Christopher Wright (Sep 27, 2012)

Shakespeare referred to a grandfather clock in Julius Caesar. Therefore everything is permissible.


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## Sheilawisz (Sep 27, 2012)

My first _Joan of England_ novel starts in August of 1348, and my medieval characters (Joan, her assistants and her family) all speak modern English without a hint of the language of those days... Actually I believe that they spoke French in real life, but I wanted to write the trilogy in modern English from the start =)

I can explain that because the story is set in a parallel Earth and not our world exactly, but anyway, I think that if a writer introduces modern words into a medieval story it's not that bad really...

I mean, as long as it's not over-used it will be just fine.


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## Zero Angel (Sep 27, 2012)

Christopher Wright said:


> Shakespeare referred to a grandfather clock in Julius Caesar. Therefore everything is permissible.



I remember this. Was it because he did it deliberately or because he was ignorant that they wouldn't have grandfather clocks?


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## Androxine Vortex (Sep 27, 2012)

I would absolutely hate it. If I was a book set in a fantasy universe and there were "lol's" and sentences like your break dancing example, I would seriously criticize the author. If it happened too much I honestly think I wouldn't continue reading unless the book was intended to be humorous. It would be like reading a book about dragons and say that, "The dragon flew up into the air like an airplane." Unless airplanes exist in your fantasy world then the comparison does not belong there.


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## Weaver (Sep 27, 2012)

As a general rule, I'm against it.  I'm assuming, of course, that you mean actual medieval fantasy, not fantasy set in a future where civilization is pseudo-medieval.  That doesn't that the story must be written in some imitation 'old-fashioned' language, though.  Standard contemporary English is perfectly all right.  (Ursula K. LeGuin's essay "From Elfland to Poughkeepsie" is a must-read for fantasy writers.)


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## BWFoster78 (Sep 27, 2012)

I don't remember an important component of the equation being brought up: what is the target audience?

If you're going after fantasy fans, especially those who like high fantasy, the idea is a bad one.  If you're trying to reach a mainstream audience, maybe the idea has merit.  Is the somewhat archaic nature of most fantasy a turnoff for the masses?  Interesting question.


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## Devor (Sep 27, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> I don't remember an important component of the equation being brought up: what is the target audience?
> 
> If you're going after fantasy fans, especially those who like high fantasy, the idea is a bad one.  If you're trying to reach a mainstream audience, maybe the idea has merit.  Is the somewhat archaic nature of most fantasy a turnoff for the masses?  Interesting question.




It would depend on the tone and the specifics, but for the most part, people want a tone that reflects the story being told.  That's part of your brand.  If you have a serious fantasy story, you spoil that with out-of-place allusions to break dancing.  But you could have a vein of silliness in your brand, so long as you do it consistently.


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## Philip Overby (Sep 27, 2012)

I have used slang before in my writing.  I try not to go too far out there.  Typically the most slangy I get is using curse words or using "OK."  I've taken to not liking using OK, so I may try to eliminate most of it from my writing.

I think if you're writing comic fantasy, using anachronisms can be fun.   I sort of get annoyed when someone says, "This doesn't seem like fantasy."  All fantasy isn't medieval, and I think a lot of people that don't read fantasy assume it all must be like that.  Terry Pratchett has done that to much success.  If you're good at doing it, then go for it.  If it jerks the reader out of a "serious" story, then it's probably not a good idea.


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## Weaver (Sep 27, 2012)

"All fantasy isn't medieval, and I think a lot of people that don't read fantasy assume it all must be like that."

Well, the original question was about medieval fantasy, but this is an excellent point.  Some of my favorite fantasy novels are urban fantasies from an earlier era, before the term started being applied primarily to contemporary vampire novels and such.  I'm especially fond of the various Newford novels and short stories by Charles de Lint, and of course _War for the Oaks _by Emma Bull.  If the setting is contemporary, no matter who/what the characters are, then of course contemporary language and references are appropriate.

For that matter, not all fantasy that does have a low-tech, "medieval" setting needs to be set in a place that resembles Europe during the Middle Ages.


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## Steerpike (Sep 28, 2012)

_War for the Oaks_ is a great book.

Emma Bull and Steven Brust did a nice collaboration called _Freedom and Necessity_.


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## Zephon (Sep 28, 2012)

Sorry I should have mentioned, this would be within the narration, and if it were used in dialogue it would be in an ironic and/or coincidental sort of way. 

The characters would be in an alternative and highly stylized( or rather exaggerated) medieval world. 

JRRT's "locomotive" example is almost exactly what I'm talking about. 

Another description being "...and he fought like a tank."

Obviously tanks would not exist in this world, and it would also be a nod to "Tank" characters in modern MMORPG games.


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## Weaver (Sep 28, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> _War for the Oaks_ is a great book.
> 
> Emma Bull and Steven Brust did a nice collaboration called _Freedom and Necessity_.



I read that, too.  How could I _not_ read it?  Two of my favorite authors who are still alive and on this planet wrote a novel together...!  The fantasy elements are subtle, but sometimes that's a nice change of pace.  And (to keep this post at least partly on-topic) the language used is appropriate for the period in which the story is set.


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## Steerpike (Sep 28, 2012)

Weaver, you are one of the few people I've met who has read that. Brust and Bull are also two of my favorites.


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## Zero Angel (Sep 28, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Weaver, you are one of the few people I've met who has read that. Brust and Bull are also two of my favorites.



Never heard of them. Recommendation?


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## Steerpike (Sep 28, 2012)

Zero Angel said:


> Never heard of them. Recommendation?



For Brust, try his Vlad Taltos books, starting with _Jhereg_, or his books set earlier in that same world, starting with _The Phoenix Guards_.


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