# Fantasy publishers/newbies



## SeverinR (Oct 5, 2011)

I found a websight that offered a list of twenty Scifi/fantasy publishers websights.
I went to each, 18 either did not accept submissions, their link didn't work, or they only accepted from an agent.
1 accepted only complete manuscripts(no return) no querry, no partial.
1 accepted only complete manuscripts online only. 

Did I get a unique set?
No querry letters, and mostly only agent submissions?


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## Kelise (Oct 5, 2011)

That's the same with most publishers I've ever looked in to. That's why I'll be getting an agent - once you find an agent who'll accept you, they do all the hard work of finding you a publisher, as they generally have worked with most of them already.


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## Qfantasy (Oct 6, 2011)

starconstant said:


> That's the same with most publishers I've ever looked in to. That's why I'll be getting an agent - once you find an agent who'll accept you, they do all the hard work of finding you a publisher, as they generally have worked with most of them already.



Unfortunately, finding an agent to take you on can be just as difficult. They are inundated with submissions and many only take on 1-2 new authors a year (I live in the UK and this is my experience with lit agents/publishers in this country). Before you submit any work, I suggest you make sure the opening paragraphs of your book really grab the reader, and follow that through with a powerful first chapter to ensure your submission is more than glanced at.


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## Kelise (Oct 6, 2011)

Quite aware of that  When publishing houses don't accept MS otherwise most of the time it's not like there's many choices though. Here in Australia, you basically have to have an agent.


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## SeverinR (Oct 6, 2011)

starconstant said:


> That's the same with most publishers I've ever looked in to. That's why I'll be getting an agent - once you find an agent who'll accept you, they do all the hard work of finding you a publisher, as they generally have worked with most of them already.


 
Next weeks class is on what an agent does, but they do alot of the work just from the little bit he shared.

One thing, someone on another forum noted,
Unsolicited-means they don't take mansuscripts, they are the ones that you send the querry letter too.


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## KingArthur (Oct 7, 2011)

I've been shopping around both agents and publishers and have been denied across the board on the eastcoast here you pretty much need an agent but may get lucky without one. But i've been told by published authors that you would be better served career and finacially by getting an agent first.


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## pskelding (Oct 9, 2011)

Some of us have chosen the self pub route especially since those editors who used to work at big publishers are now freelance and affordable.  This puts me in the driver's seat as far as my career goes. Yes it's more work for me and some money out of my pocket but I also will make MORE money because I will retain a higher percentage of my sales. 

Not to mention I have control of the cover art which is important to me. 

I keep up with publishing and I think the agents are going to become the new publishers, many of them are already starting to turn on the BIG 6.  Agents are increasingly handling editing because the BIG 6 don't want undeveloped authors coz the bean counters don't want to invest in a 5 or 6 book career before an author "hits".  The agents have been upset about this for quite a while and ebooks gives them the perfect weapon to fight back and some very high profile ones are using it.


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## TWErvin2 (Oct 9, 2011)

Many fantasy/SF publishers accept non-agented submissions. Tor, Baen, DAW, Ace/Roc and the vast majority of the small publishing houses. It takes a lot longer to go through the slush pile than through an agent, but it can be difficult finding a quality agent to represent one's work. There's a lot of competition.


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## Deleth (Oct 13, 2011)

pskelding said:


> Some of us have chosen the self pub route especially since those editors who used to work at big publishers are now freelance and affordable.  This puts me in the driver's seat as far as my career goes. Yes it's more work for me and some money out of my pocket but I also will make MORE money because I will retain a higher percentage of my sales.
> 
> Not to mention I have control of the cover art which is important to me.
> 
> I keep up with publishing and I think the agents are going to become the new publishers, many of them are already starting to turn on the BIG 6.  Agents are increasingly handling editing because the BIG 6 don't want undeveloped authors coz the bean counters don't want to invest in a 5 or 6 book career before an author "hits".  The agents have been upset about this for quite a while and ebooks gives them the perfect weapon to fight back and some very high profile ones are using it.



This is what I will be doing when I finish my first.


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## SeverinR (Oct 14, 2011)

From the class on Agents;

only12% of published works are done without an agent.

If you get a contract, the agent would be stupid not to represent you, 75% of the work is done, and the agent is 
more adept in writing contracts then an ordinary lawyer, and this agent claimed that the agent will probably pay for his cost possibly even double his cost by negotiating on a level field with the publisher, the contract publishers send out is the low ball most of the time.

3 classes and this guy was the most informative, the other one spoke about writing a (book) sequel and basically shared his way of writing his book.  One way, not the only way.  It was interesting, he self published then went to the publishers and sold the original book and his sequel.  He was the extreme exception. (published without an agent and published two books)


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## Caged Maiden (Oct 16, 2011)

Did he mention who he went through to self-publish?  Or what it cost him?  Just wondering..... It almost sounds too good to be true, self-publishing, but i know there are down sides to it as well.


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## Deleth (Oct 17, 2011)

anihow said:


> Did he mention who he went through to self-publish?  Or what it cost him?  Just wondering..... It almost sounds too good to be true, self-publishing, but i know there are down sides to it as well.



One of the most glaring downsides to Self Publishing is that unless you hire someone to with your own money, you are the one marketing your book.

Most writers I've met are not sales persons.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Oct 17, 2011)

Well, sales and marketing are two different (but related) things. Sales is about convincing a single person to buy something. Marketing is about convincing a lot of people at once to buy something. Oddly enough, I find marketing a lot easier than sales. ;-)


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## TWErvin2 (Oct 17, 2011)

Even if a writer's work is picked up by a large or a small publisher, an author is going to have to promote their work. 

Having a publisher that markets and supports an author is certainly helpful, but expecting 'to only write' and never make an effort otherwise is unlikely to result in success (gaining readers). Some level of author participation, especially starting off, is key to a novel's success...and key to an author being offered a contract for their next novel.


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## Deleth (Oct 18, 2011)

TWErvin2 said:


> Even if a writer's work is picked up by a large or a small publisher, an author is going to have to promote their work.
> 
> Having a publisher that markets and supports an author is certainly helpful, but expecting 'to only write' and never make an effort otherwise is unlikely to result in success (gaining readers). Some level of author participation, especially starting off, is key to a novel's success...and key to an author being offered a contract for their next novel.



I was never trying to imply that there was no effort on teh authors part requiered after the fact, merely suggesting that most people I know with a creative personality are not very personable themselves. But that is my own experience, and obviously it differs drastically from person to person. Just a little clairification


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Oct 25, 2011)

SeverinR said:


> From the class on Agents;
> 
> only12% of published works are done without an agent.



I'm really interested in his source; do you know where he got that data? A poll a few years back showed that among SF&F books, around 40% were unagented. Is that the norm across genres? No idea.



> If you get a contract, the agent would be stupid not to represent you, 75% of the work is done, and the agent is
> more adept in writing contracts then an ordinary lawyer, and this agent claimed that the agent will probably pay for his cost possibly even double his cost by negotiating on a level field with the publisher, the contract publishers send out is the low ball most of the time.



If you already have a contract, there's no longer very much that an agent can do for you. In fact, in most cases I'd recommend hiring a contracts lawyer instead. Flat fee, you pay less, and you're less likely to get scalded by a nasty contract clause if you've got someone who actually understands law reading the contract. I'm not slamming agents with that statement - they just don't have any real training with legal issues, and over the last couple of years we've seen many major publishers introducing clauses to many contracts which are extremely dangerous to the writer, even career ending in some cases.

Even if you have an agent, I'd recommend an attorney as well. Agent's job is to get the contract for you - attorney's job is to ensure the contract will leave you with your skin still intact.


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## MichaelSullivan (Oct 25, 2011)

If you go the non-agented route and get some traction with a publisher my recommendation is immediately approach a few agents and get represented.  The 'type and size' of a contract that will be sent to a non-agented author will be much different than one with an agent.  I had something like this happen to me with my first foreign rights contract.  The agent got the advanced increaesd by 50% and her commission was 20% (10% for her 10% for the co-agent in the other country) so I ended up getting 30% more.  

But even more than the money are the terms in the contract.  A "new" writer with no leverage will get a contract that is very slanted toward the publisher. Your agent will drag those terms back in favor of the author.


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## myrddin173 (Oct 25, 2011)

Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> If you already have a contract, there's no longer very much that an agent can do for you. In fact, in most cases I'd recommend hiring a contracts lawyer instead. Flat fee, you pay less, and you're less likely to get scalded by a nasty contract clause if you've got someone who actually understands law reading the contract. I'm not slamming agents with that statement - they just don't have any real training with legal issues, and over the last couple of years we've seen many major publishers introducing clauses to many contracts which are extremely dangerous to the writer, even career ending in some cases.



I was listening to an episode of the Writing Excuses podcast yesterday where they mentioned just this.  In many cases you would be more likely to get an agent if you already have a contract.  In most cases they can renegotiate that contract to get you a better deal.  It is this one, I think.


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## monty (Oct 25, 2011)

Isn't the onus on advertising on the publisher rather than the author when it's not self-published? I have this vision of me going from bookstore to bookstore, kind of like a vacuum cleaner salesman, if I decide to self-publish.


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## SeverinR (Oct 25, 2011)

MichaelSullivan said:


> If you go the non-agented route and get some traction with a publisher my recommendation is immediately approach a few agents and get represented.  The 'type and size' of a contract that will be sent to a non-agented author will be much different than one with an agent.  I had something like this happen to me with my first foreign rights contract.  The agent got the advanced increaesd by 50% and her commission was 20% (10% for her 10% for the co-agent in the other country) so I ended up getting 30% more.
> 
> But even more than the money are the terms in the contract.  A "new" writer with no leverage will get a contract that is very slanted toward the publisher. Your agent will drag those terms back in favor of the author.



You approach an agent with a contract in hand, they will be alot more inclined to listen to you.
The majority of work is done, the money is all but guaranteed.  No selling, just negotiating.  (to me sounds like the most fun about this job.)

This is what the agent in class said.


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## MichaelSullivan (Oct 25, 2011)

Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> If you already have a contract, there's no longer very much that an agent can do for you. In fact, in most cases I'd recommend hiring a contracts lawyer instead. Flat fee, you pay less, and you're less likely to get scalded by a nasty contract clause if you've got someone who actually understands law reading the contract. I'm not slamming agents with that statement - they just don't have any real training with legal issues, and over the last couple of years we've seen many major publishers introducing clauses to many contracts which are extremely dangerous to the writer, even career ending in some cases.



I hear this a lot - and I'm not saying its not a viable opinion but I would like to offer up a few things.

There are varying degrees of contracts. When your agent is from a "big firm" and you are dealing with a "big six" then they already have negotiated some language that will be to an author's benefit. Even if you already have a contract in hand, as long as you haven't signed it the agent (or lawyer) will get a better one than you would get on your own.

My agent actually IS a lawyer so they are not mutually exclusive - sometimes you can get both.

A one-time fee sounds like a no-brainer but it could be higher than a commission arrangement.  If the offer is $5,000 than the agent would get $750 (assuming you don't earn out which occurs 20% of the time) and at $350 an hour (the going rate for many IP lawyers you can eat through that quite a bit.

My agent is always on the look out for "other" revenue sources for my work whereas a lawyer is just a one-time transaction. I've made more than $200,000 from additional sales closed by my agent including: foreign language sales (8 countries and counting), audio rights, book club, and she has even landed me one of the largest media agents (movie / television) of which she'll get a cut if a deal is made but more than worth it if it comes in.



Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> Over the last couple of years we've seen many major publishers introducing clauses to many contracts which are extremely dangerous to the writer, even career ending in some cases.



This is indeed true and I had to fight tooth and nail to get alterations on this front (and almost didn't sign because of it).  To be honest they are pretty easy to spot but very hard to get the publisher to "budge from". As I mentioned my agent is a lawyer but she also hired (on her dime not mine) an IP lawyer just because he had done many more deals than her (800 - 1000). They both told me the same thing, "This is standard in all contracts, the publisher will not alter this clause." They both told me I would have to live with it or walk away. Well I couldn't live with it and would have walked away but after 4 months and with a release deadline approaching I finally got a contract that was agreeable to both myself and my publisher.  Bottom line...you are your advocates (lawyer or agent) can advise and "attempt" to get alterations and in the end only you can decide if you can live with what is eventually presented for signing.

Again, I'm not disputing what Kevin (and others) have said in this debate I just want to shed some other perspectives on it as well.


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## MichaelSullivan (Oct 28, 2011)

monty said:


> Isn't the onus on advertising on the publisher rather than the author when it's not self-published? I have this vision of me going from bookstore to bookstore, kind of like a vacuum cleaner salesman, if I decide to self-publish.



If you want success, IMHO, you need to be getting the word out regardless of how you are published.  In other words the "onus" is the same for self-published and traditionally published author. Keep in mind that the publisher has MANY author's works and you are only getting a "slice" of their time. Only you will be 100% dedicated to the success of your books.  

Bookstores generally won't carry self-published books - so you won't be going store by store like a vacuum cleaner salesman. The good news is because of online distribution you don't need to go door-to-door.  In the past there was no mechanism for you to get books out to the masses but with ebooks and retailers such as Amazon and B&N online you'll be able to reach a large audience.


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## MichaelSullivan (Oct 28, 2011)

SeverinR said:


> You approach an agent with a contract in hand, they will be alot more inclined to listen to you.
> The majority of work is done, the money is all but guaranteed.  No selling, just negotiating.  (to me sounds like the most fun about this job.)
> 
> This is what the agent in class said.



In my case the "contract in hand" was for foriegn publication. Most "big" publishers in the US won't accept manuscripts without going through an agent so in most cases you'll have to get that first.  But there are a few fantasy pressess (Baen and I think Tor) who do have a "slush pile" the problem is it can be a very slow process.  I received a letter from Baen 2 years after I submitted...saying they were interested but then noticed that Orbit bought it.  In comparison when my agent "shopped it around" she sent a proposal to 17 editors and had 7 interested parties in just a few days.


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## SeverinR (Nov 30, 2011)

MichaelSullivan said:


> In my case the "contract in hand" was for foriegn publication. Most "big" publishers in the US won't accept manuscripts without going through an agent so in most cases you'll have to get that first.  But there are a few fantasy pressess (Baen and I think Tor) who do have a "slush pile" the problem is it can be a very slow process.  I received a letter from Baen 2 years after I submitted...saying they were interested but then noticed that Orbit bought it.  In comparison when my agent "shopped it around" she sent a proposal to 17 editors and had 7 interested parties in just a few days.



From what I hear its much like starting a career;
its a catch 22.
You need an agent to get to the publisher, but to get an agent you need to be published.


There are exceptions.


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## MichaelSullivan (Dec 4, 2011)

SeverinR said:


> From the class on Agents;
> If you get a contract, the agent would be stupid not to represent you, 75% of the work is done, and the agent is
> more adept in writing contracts then an ordinary lawyer, and this agent claimed that the agent will probably pay for his cost possibly even double his cost by negotiating on a level field with the publisher, the contract publishers send out is the low ball most of the time.



There is no question that the contract sent to you "you" will be much worse than the one sent to "an agent".  They are well worth their 15% - my first contract was for a foreign rights deal and the agent got the price raised by 50% so I made an extra 35% with her.

But even more importantly...is the clauses in the contract, the rights retained etc.  My agent made it clear that foreign rights, movie rights, merchandising rights were off the table so my publisher is getting no "cut" on those and I've already sold several hundred thousands in foreign sales.

So...bottom line...if you are going "big-traditional publisher" - an agent is well worth it.


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## MichaelSullivan (Dec 4, 2011)

Deleth said:


> One of the most glaring downsides to Self Publishing is that unless you hire someone to with your own money, you are the one marketing your book.
> 
> Most writers I've met are not sales persons.



No matter how you are published (self or through a publisher) the majority of the "promotion" tasks will fall on you - or not get done.


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## MichaelSullivan (Dec 4, 2011)

Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> If you already have a contract, there's no longer very much that an agent can do for you. In fact, in most cases I'd recommend hiring a contracts lawyer instead. Flat fee, you pay less, and you're less likely to get scalded by a nasty contract clause if you've got someone who actually understands law reading the contract. I'm not slamming agents with that statement - they just don't have any real training with legal issues, and over the last couple of years we've seen many major publishers introducing clauses to many contracts which are extremely dangerous to the writer, even career ending in some cases.
> 
> Even if you have an agent, I'd recommend an attorney as well. Agent's job is to get the contract for you - attorney's job is to ensure the contract will leave you with your skin still intact.



A lot of people go the IP route rather than the agent. My agent actually hired (out of her cut) an IP lawyer so you can get both for the same 15% - the issue I have with going straight IP route - is you are basically doing a work for hire - yeah they'll negotiate this particular deal - but they aren't out there trying to "build your career".  A good agent is going to do that.

My agent has gotten me:


More than 8 foreign sales 
US deal that kept most of the rights with us (she wanted them just as much as I did)
Representation by the book-to-film division head for ICM (one of the largest movie/tv agencies in Hollywood)

By using an agent she is "finding" other revenue sources for my work where an IP lawyer is just going to do a one-off negotiation.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin (Dec 5, 2011)

First off, sounds like you have an excellent agent - which is great.  =)  That said, that doesn't seem to be a consistent experience out there. Admittedly, I haven't dealt with an agent since '97, but I'm not hearing great things from most quarters these days.

For negotiation - you COULD always negotiate on your own, of course. But using an IP lawyer doesn't mean you lack a negotiator at your table; negotiating deals is a very large part of what many contract lawyers do. Not all of them; but then, not all agents are very good at it, either.

Foreign rights and movie rights? Outstanding. Most US agents don't handle those directly, they outsource them to other agents (same as you can, for the same cut they get, except you keep the 15% rather than pay two agent fees). I also know a number of writers who simply handle that stuff themselves with great success - however, I recognize that's a level of expertise most writers simply aren't interested in attaining.

What really got me was that your agent hired an IP lawyer - out of their share of the income, as part of their service to you. I've heard of that happening before, but never spoke to someone whose agent actually did it. Really, really nice - sounds like a keeper of an agent.  

On the other side of that, though?

- Agents who are taking every ms. they don't want and instead of sending rejections, instead sending offers to "help them self publish" for the "low, low price of..."
- Agents who are letting slide some of the most horrific contract clauses in the history of publishing, mostly because they think they understand contract law - and don't have enough knowledge to deal with the nastier modern contracts.
- Agents who insist on not allowing split revenue from the publisher (should be big warning bells there - it hurts them not at all for the publisher to cut a check to each of you - IF the agent is honest).
- Agents who likewise prefer to have royalty statements sent to authors through them.
- Agents who don't get royalty statements sent to authors for foreign sales.
- Agents who insist upon taking their share of all works published by an author during the relationship period - sometimes to include self published work (depending upon the wording of that agency agreement) especially if the writer asks the agent to send it around, the agent fails, and the writer then self publishes.
- Agents who insist on their share of profits for future rights sold on a work, such as for writers who have recovered their rights and self published their backlists.
- Agents who set themselves up as editors, "helping" writers revise their work for editors (admittedly, sometimes good - but often not as well).

Lots more, if you want 'em.  

There's some good agents out there. But literary agencies on the whole are a perilous minefield, right now.


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