# Length



## Fyle (Nov 25, 2014)

So, my question is pretty simple. So simple this must be a repost from some point in time here, but can't hurt to keep it fresh! Opinions change, new information and ideas are always floating around!

My novel is coming out to be longer than I had anticipated. I am sure, as I edit, I can find spots to shorten and cut out information that is just not needed, but all in all, each chapter ties into the next, and even details become relevant or important. 

Does a lengthy novel turn off readers? A neat 300k would be nice, or maybe like 275k (not too long, not too short) but, it looks like its gonna be 320-340k. 

Would anyone suggest cutting down the length purely because a shorter book may be picked up with less question than one of a lengthy size?

For me personally, if something looks interesting enough to read, length is a *minor* factor. Maybe with your take on the marketing side you could add you pure personal preferance? 

Thanks all!


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## T.Allen.Smith (Nov 26, 2014)

If the author keeps me engaged in the story & interested in characters, a long book doesn't scare me.

If you're planning on self-publishing then this isn't as great a concern, but traditional houses will shy away from publishing an unknown's work of that length.

Most times, advice says to keep a fantasy book under the 140k mark. But, that's a guideline like any other. It's your story, write it as it needs be told...just be honest with yourself. Ask if it can be split into smaller stories. Ask what is essential for the reader to know & what is information you want to convey, there's a difference. If in the end, the story passes that test, do what you think best.


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## Fyle (Nov 26, 2014)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> If the author keeps me engaged in the story & interested in characters, a long book doesn't scare me.
> 
> If you're planning on self-publishing then this isn't as great a concern, but traditional houses will shy away from publishing an unknown's work of that length.
> 
> Most times, advice says to keep a fantasy book under the 140k mark. But, that's a guideline like any other. It's your story, write it as it needs be told...just be honest with yourself. Ask if it can be split into smaller stories. Ask what is essential for the reader to know & what is information you want to convey, there's a difference. If in the end, the story passes that test, do what you think best.



Sounds like good advice. 

I of course have thought of cutting less important chapters, but, even those have details in them that are discussed throughout the entire work after so... that could cause an editing mess...

... and yes. I doubt I will be doing anything but self publishing. I could send out a few query letters for s#%ts and giggles, but, meh. I wouldn't expect much.

Thanks!


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## PaulineMRoss (Nov 26, 2014)

With fantasy, length really isn't an issue. So long as the story is engaging and easy to read, it's really not a problem. And when you create an entire world, the story needs to be expansive. 

Having said that, from a marketing and money-making point of view, there are some considerations. For self-publishing, the current wisdom is that it's best to pump out several books in rapid succession, to build a following. A single, very large book, followed by a long wait for the next very large book, is not ideal. Pricing is problematic, too. Do you really want to price a book of that size at $2.99 or even $0.99, which is the common price point for debut self-publishers?

But it really depends on what your objective is. If it's about making money, split the book into 5 or 6 component parts, release them a month apart and promote wildly. If it's about writing the best book you can and just putting it out there - publish as is.

Footnote: for anyone working up to self-publishing, I always recommend my two favourite helpful sites: Scribophile, for online critiques of at least the all-important first few chapters; and the Writers Cafe forum at Kboards for practical self-publishing expertise.


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## Philip Overby (Nov 26, 2014)

I agree with what some others have said. Perhaps if you're planning to release a long work another idea I've heard people do is to actually write all the books of a series (or trilogy) before publishing. Then they'll release the first one and even if it's really long, you'll have the second book ready to launch so that people aren't waiting for you to write the second one. I personally like the strategy of writing shorter books and releasing them quickly so if you gain fans, they'll have plenty of work to chose from.


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## glutton (Nov 26, 2014)

Personally I would consider splitting that into 3-4 books (assuming enough happens in it for that to be feasible).


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## Mythopoet (Nov 26, 2014)

Well, are you planning to self publish or try to go the traditional route? If you're submitting to publishers then if they pick it up you won't have any say in how long it is or whether it's published as 1 book or 2 or whatever. 

That said, 300k+ is REALLY long. I always thought 100k was typical for a fantasy novel though it's rather long for some genres. According to the SFWA guidelines anything above 40k is a novel. Keep in mind that the longer the book, the wider the spine of a print book and once you get to a certain point you just can't do a paperback without it falling apart. 

I do think length does play a factor, at least for me. Because when you read a book you're investing time and the longer the book the longer the time you'll have to devote to it over other books. If I'm looking at a four inch wide book on a bookstore shelf by a writer that is new and totally unknown to me, I'm more likely to pass on it. The time investment necessary is just not worth it for an unknown author. Certainly not for readers who have limited reading time, like most adults. I'd be much more likely to take the chance on an unknown author if the book is a more manageable time investment. 

Furthermore, if you're going to self publish and can make the decisions yourself you might consider that the more titles you have the more exposure you have and thus the better chance at discoverability. Also there's good evidence that readers are more likely to take a chance on unknown authors that have series published. So if you divided it into, say, 3 parts and published them all at the same time you have three titles for potential readers to find and look more accomplished and professional than an author with only one book out.


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## Incanus (Nov 26, 2014)

Hey Fyle.

The trilogy might be a good option for you.  I know you've been getting into editing mode lately.  Depending on how daunting you find it all, having to concentrate on 100-120K at a time to the (temporary) exclusion of the rest, may make it feel more manageable.  And then, when you have the first part released, you need only kick-back (sort of) and edit the next bit, which should not take anywhere near as long to to finish and release as it would if it still all needed to be written from scratch.

Of course, it goes without saying that you are the ultimate arbiter--you know the material better than anyone else and breaking the book up may not be the best idea for a variety of reasons.

Good luck!


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## cupiscent (Nov 26, 2014)

Length can be a tricky beast for the trad publishing route - though it does vary by market! The UK market seems to favour longer books, even on debut, than the US market, and when I started out querying in Australia, I was told that my then 180k novel was "a good length". The first response I got from a US agent on the same novel was "cut the length by a third and I'd like to see it".

That said, I have to say that once I'd cut 50k from the novel, it was a _lot_ stronger. A much, much better novel. All of that material had seemed important, until I actually had a strong directive to rethink my approach. I'm very, very glad I did it, and all the full requests I got for it subsequently (I had _no_ other interest in the 180k version) bear out the strength it added.

That said, must-be-a-series is also a tricky traditional sell for a debut author. The vibe I get is that agents want around 100k for a debut fantasy novel, and the golden phrase is "stand-alone with series potential". It seems that publishers are uncertain about buying multiple books from a debut author who may not sell strongly, but they love the idea of being able to get more of the same if it _does_ sell strongly.

For self-pub, I defer to the greater knowledge of those who've already helped out on this question.


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## Fyle (Nov 26, 2014)

cupiscent said:


> That said, must-be-a-series is also a tricky traditional sell for a debut author. The vibe I get is that agents want around 100k for a debut fantasy novel, and the golden phrase is "stand-alone with series potential". It seems that publishers are uncertain about buying multiple books from a debut author who may not sell strongly, but they love the idea of being able to get more of the same if it _does_ sell strongly.



Okay, this was one thing in my mind right here... one of the reasons this became the length it did was because of a post on this forum I asked about "cliffhangers" and a 10 top list of things fantasy publishers are tired of.

Many of you here may remember that list and one thing on that "fantasy publishers are tired of list" is _cupiscents_ comment. It became long, because I want it to be able to stand alone as a single book - so I wrap up and satisfy the reader on the big conflicts/questions. 

The next reason is, about 3/4s in about 225k words, I asked if ending on a cliffhanger was a bad idea. I think the general concensous, or the more convincing arguments concluded that, it would be best to come to a conclusion for the main story.

So - with those two things in mind, I needed the length. 

Can I cut things, yes, but it would be rough and room a large margin for making logical errors since I have weaved everything together nicely, trying to make sure minor characters effected the story in some way. Since actions of minor characters do effect more important characters, if I cut chapters with them, things later on may not make sense. I beleive someone coined it as "the butterfly effect," which I fear can happen to me easily if I cut some stuff...

Anyway, I am not looking for a career in writing, and this may be the only book I have time to write in a good long while, so, I am focusing on this and I just want it to be as good as possible, storywise,logically, and enjoyability wise. I don't have time to lay ground work for the future or look to the sky. Putting it in that way, may alter advise geared for a writer who is building a foundation.


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## glutton (Nov 26, 2014)

Fyle said:


> Okay, this was one thing in my mind right here... one of the reasons this became the length it did was because of a post on this forum I asked about "cliffhangers" and a 10 top list of things fantasy publishers are tired of.
> 
> Many of you here may remember that list and one thing on that "fantasy publishers are tired of list" is _cupiscents_ comment. It became long, because I want it to be able to stand alone as a single book - so I wrap up and satisfy the reader on the big conflicts/questions.
> 
> ...



Are there other places in the story besides the cliffhanger that could work as an 'ending' to a shorter book?


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## cupiscent (Nov 26, 2014)

Fyle, sorry if I'm reading more into your comments than you intent, but you seem very against making any significant changes to this story - such as removing elements, or reshaping the parts of the book to make more satisfying separate volumes. (I mean, yes, either of those is a lot of work. But if it makes the story better and helps deliver it to readers, isn't that worth a lot of work?) I guess I just wonder, in that case, whether traditional publishing is the right path for this work, because there's a strong likelihood that - if the project is taken on - an agent and/or publisher will come back with a big list of things they want altered and improved. (For me, that's one of the great positives of traditional publishing. I can't wait to engage with a professional about strengthening my writing.)


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## glutton (Nov 26, 2014)

cupiscent said:


> Fyle, sorry if I'm reading more into your comments than you intent, but you seem very against making any significant changes to this story - such as removing elements, or reshaping the parts of the book to make more satisfying separate volumes. (I mean, yes, either of those is a lot of work. But if it makes the story better and helps deliver it to readers, isn't that worth a lot of work?) I guess I just wonder, in that case, whether traditional publishing is the right path for this work, because there's a strong likelihood that - if the project is taken on - an agent and/or publisher will come back with a big list of things they want altered and improved. (For me, that's one of the great positives of traditional publishing. I can't wait to engage with a professional about strengthening my writing.)



I wasn't sure if I should say this, but at 320-340K words if there aren't points within that could make a satisfying ending for a shorter book, I was feeling a little worried not enough might happen in it to keep (some) readers engaged...


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## Fyle (Nov 26, 2014)

cupiscent said:


> Fyle, sorry if I'm reading more into your comments than you intent, but you seem very against making any significant changes to this story - such as removing elements, or reshaping the parts of the book to make more satisfying separate volumes. (I mean, yes, either of those is a lot of work. But if it makes the story better and helps deliver it to readers, isn't that worth a lot of work?) I guess I just wonder, in that case, whether traditional publishing is the right path for this work, because there's a strong likelihood that - if the project is taken on - an agent and/or publisher will come back with a big list of things they want altered and improved. (For me, that's one of the great positives of traditional publishing. I can't wait to engage with a professional about strengthening my writing.)



No changes, are okay if they help the reader ingage themselves in the story.

They just open room for error and I will have a newborn in two weeks so writing time will be cut super short. I am just fishing to see if I can deal with the lenght or if it is gonna be a deal breaker...

I am very happy with how it all comes together. What I can do, in a few days after I finish the final chapter is go back and take out unnessecary details or world building that is not nessecary to tell the tale. If I cut off 500 words off 59 chapters, that's almost 30k words right there...

then if i shorten dialogue more to the point and say cut off another 100 words per chapter thats anther 6k. Then if I cut a few random encounters that build atmosphere and add detail I can prolly cut another 5-6k words and end up under 300k...

I just have no reason to change actual plotline...

"_Are there other places in the story besides the cliffhanger that could work as an 'ending' to a shorter book?_"

@ glutton ... Yes... there is a good one, but it is already on chapter 54, and I am ending on 59, so at that point... I planned that to be the end actually but, it just felt like there needed to be some aftermath or it wouldn't make sense... good question, thank you.

I broke it down to put it into page perspective. For the sake of world building and building anticipation/ letting the reader wonder about mysteries, I would rather no go under 500 pages anyway, just feels kinda short... 700+ feeling long... under 700... kinda long, but not mindblowing....

Arial font 12 point size / 11 point size:

327k words = 727 pages / 602 pages

317k words = 704 pages / 602 pages

297k words = 660 pages / 547 pages

275k words = 611 page / 506 pages

250k words = 555 pages / 460 pages


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## cupiscent (Nov 26, 2014)

Fyle said:


> No changes, are okay if they help the reader ingage themselves in the story. They just open room for error and I will have a newborn in two weeks so writing time will be cut super short. I am just fishing to see if I can deal with the lenght or if it is gonna be a deal breaker...



Fair enough! The vibe I get from all my investigation is that nothing is a dealbreaker in publishing, but every deviation from "easy" means that everything else has to be even better to get an agent/publisher on board. So you can keep the length, but you'll want to make absolutely sure that the novel is _amazing_. And you'll still have some agents and publishers who reject on length without looking because it's just too hard.

Editing after the fact because I just found spec-fic agent Amy Boggs tweeting: "So a long word count isn’t an auto-pass, but every word must be necessary."


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## Fyle (Nov 26, 2014)

cupiscent said:


> Fair enough! The vibe I get from all my investigation is that nothing is a dealbreaker in publishing, but every deviation from "easy" means that everything else has to be even better to get an agent/publisher on board. So you can keep the length, but you'll want to make absolutely sure that the novel is _amazing_. And you'll still have some agents and publishers who reject on length without looking because it's just too hard.



I suppose ya... but if you go for traditional publishing i heard they only read a small amount and then ask for an outline anyway.. i mean i am open to cutting chapters, i just have to be careful since doing so can cause future reading not to make sense if i  dont edit it all...

Thanks for all the feedback by the way


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## spectre (Nov 27, 2014)

the best example I can give of long stories that become daunting is Robert Jordan's wheel of time. thus far I love the series, but when there are three or four chapters where the filler material like the character personalities might not evolve over the course of the book or even two books then the story halts for that chapter. as long as you have material to cover those pages that doesn't stall out, long books are great. Stephen king wrote some long books, Tolkien's books are long, Robert Jordan's books are long (despite the fact that I can't stand some of his character development, if nynaeve doesn't pull her braid out soon i'm gonna be mad).


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## Fyle (Nov 27, 2014)

avm31982 said:


> the best example I can give of long stories that become daunting is Robert Jordan's wheel of time. thus far I love the series, but when there are three or four chapters where the filler material like the character personalities might not evolve over the course of the book or even two books then the story halts for that chapter. as long as you have material to cover those pages that doesn't stall out, long books are great. Stephen king wrote some long books, Tolkien's books are long, Robert Jordan's books are long (despite the fact that I can't stand some of his character development, if nynaeve doesn't pull her braid out soon i'm gonna be mad).



Sounds like a fair comment. I have beta readers in progress, so far, I have one on chapter 38, one on chapter 18 and one on chapter 24. So far so good on the attention holding and curiosity to push on. 

Of course, when my first edit for spelling, punctation and typos is "good enough," I will look to flat out remove daunting character pieces or thought captions that just aren't needed.

Having said that - the thing I love about a long book is that, when the reader does get to the "reward," or the "reveal" it feels more heavy because you have been traveling and waiting for certain things to happen along with the character. A good example is IF Arya Stark reunites with another Stark, you will "feel" it cause you have been with her so long in the waiting.

Mine is only one book that stands alone, but I am looking to emulate that feel on a smaller scale. If the characters travels conclude too fast for the sake of a smooth read, it can loose feeling - even if the reader pushes through slight slow patches or minor info dumps. In the end, the feeling they will take away will be heavier...


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## Addison (Nov 28, 2014)

I forget where I read this but bascially "If an element of the story can be cut and the story still works, then cut it." If you're really worried about the length then follow that. It's also an effective rule if you think your story's too cluttered. But length really isn't a factor if your story's solid.

Soman Chainani's debut novel "School for Good and Evil" is five hundred pages at least. Yet it's a fantastic book making great sales and the sequel is just as long and doing just as well.  So the length is really up to you.


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## Fyle (Nov 29, 2014)

Addison said:


> I forget where I read this but bascially "If an element of the story can be cut and the story still works, then cut it." If you're really worried about the length then follow that. It's also an effective rule if you think your story's too cluttered. But length really isn't a factor if your story's solid.
> 
> Soman Chainani's debut novel "School for Good and Evil" is five hundred pages at least. Yet it's a fantastic book making great sales and the sequel is just as long and doing just as well.  So the length is really up to you.



Ya, I was thinking that too, i plan on cutting out a few minor characters, im just scared in will miss details concerning them later on and leave a few inserts that dont make sense cause i cut chapter 9, but it is mentioned in chapter 35 and makes no sense... so - for the greater good i thought to not pull my hair out over length. 

I mean debuts and first book rules of thumb are fine in theory, but i dont think to many 'readers' care how many books an author has under their belt if they truly 
enjoy the story. 

Readers who learned about Asoiaf from watching game of thrones on hbo had no idea who Martins was, but when they read the books cause they watch the show, they go damn... this is some of the best writing i ever read, what else did he write？

Oh. Never heard of it. Who cares.


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## Bluesboy (Mar 25, 2015)

I have this from an author published by Tor UK and he tells me that publishers these days don't want a book that's longer than 150,000 words because even though you have a vast market writing in English, the foreign publishers for languages that have a far smaller number of speakers have less willingness to invest money into translating and printing a tome of a book, because the cost is too great and therefore it's not worth it. Take Norway for example...if they decide to translate a 700 page book, how many of those 4.5 million people living in Norway are going to buy it? Fantasy market isn't mainstream and thus, despite a loyal and devout following, the sales in languages other than English amount to little. Long books simply don't fly with foreign language markets and publishers in English speaking countries are aware of this.

The author I have this from had had a problem at first with Tor UK (they were reluctant to take him on), because his book was originally 250K words long. They edited him down to 212K. He's got a great agent, though (I hear), but how many of us will be so lucky as that?


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## Fyle (Mar 26, 2015)

Bluesboy said:


> I have this from an author published by Tor UK and he tells me that publishers these days don't want a book that's longer than 150,000 words because even though you have a vast market writing in English, the foreign publishers for languages that have a far smaller number of speakers have less willingness to invest money into translating and printing a tome of a book, because the cost is too great and therefore it's not worth it. Take Norway for example...if they decide to translate a 700 page book, how many of those 4.5 million people living in Norway are going to buy it? Fantasy market isn't mainstream and thus, despite a loyal and devout following, the sales in languages other than English amount to little. Long books simply don't fly with foreign language markets and publishers in English speaking countries are aware of this.
> 
> The author I have this from had had a problem at first with Tor UK (they were reluctant to take him on), because his book was originally 250K words long. They edited him down to 212K. He's got a great agent, though (I hear), but how many of us will be so lucky as that?



This is good advice, when I started this thread I was on a whooping undoable 317k words, I am now down to 275k, pretty big cut, but still too big. With advice I am getting everyday, I am cutting more and more. 

My gold is 250k words! For better or worse I will leave it at that. But, that you Bluesboy, that is a good response.


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## Bluesboy (Mar 26, 2015)

Fyle said:


> But, that you Bluesboy, that is a good response.



You're most welcome ...How I wish to have written at least third of what you did...oh well... My original goal was to write a book of about 150K words. Now I cannot imagine myself writing something that's even that long. I'm now aiming for 110K or 115K, expecting to be edited down to 100K or so which is about 350 pages in a printed book. Writing an epic will come later (I hope), once I've learned my shit properly 

Glad I could be of help


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## Fyle (Apr 15, 2015)

Just figured I would update this thread.

When I started it, I had _317,551 _words...

Now, down to _261,551_... and happy with the cuts.

This is a 55,855 word cut since I started this thread!

So, at what point is the novel considered, long, but not too long scare off publishers ?


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## Manalodia (Apr 16, 2015)

It's a shame when the simple pleasures in life need a place figured in, instead of being available. This at least has me thinking of the length of my book since my chapters are turning out to be....well, let's just say the first chapter is around 12,000 while the second is 28,000 (third is along that length as well). I was originally afraid I wasn't saying enough, but now I seem to be say TOO much. Reading this thread and your process/other's advice has helped what direction I should take.


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## Bluesboy (Apr 16, 2015)

Fyle said:


> So, at what point is the novel considered, long, but not too long scare off publishers ?



You have to find out by getting an agent who would offer your manuscript to publishers all over the place. They will give him feedback on the manuscript and he/she will tell you.

Good luck, mate


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## cupiscent (Apr 16, 2015)

Great work on the editing, Fyle!

Unfortunately, all of my experience in the US market of agents suggests that it's probably still too long to get a lot of attention - I see 120k suggested as the upper preferred limit for fantasy a lot, though I see big fantasy agents requesting manuscripts around the 150k mark as well. But all of that is considerably shorter than what you have.

You'll want to have an amazing query letter, one that doesn't waste any words at all, and make sure the first few chapters are tight, exciting and as fantastic as you can make them, because those are your chance to convince agents that you know what you're doing with the rest of the book. If the query or first pages are flabby, they're going to assume the book doesn't need to be 260k long.


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## Bluesboy (Apr 16, 2015)

@Fyle

I know this may sound like a moronic idea, because it may not be that applicable to your book, but have you considered splitting it in half? You may have considered it already, I don't know. In a book that's 260K words long you ought to have big events happening more often and maybe cliffhangers at the end of some chapters. Couldn't it help to split the book into 130K-word books? 

It's unlikely that agents and publishers will be thrilled about such a mighty tome landing on their desks. Splitting the book in two might be the best way to preserve most of your hard work.


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