# Weight loss and fat acceptance



## Jabrosky (Jul 21, 2013)

This morning I went walking around the neighborhood for 75 minutes, and according to my calculations I burned at least 500 calories. I plan to incorporate more exercise into my daily schedule and keep my daily calorie consumption under 2,500 (maybe even under 2,000). The reason I am doing all this is because I am clinically obese and want to better myself in both health and physical attractiveness. In briefer words, I want to lose weight.

Unfortunately I have observed a trend among other overweight people, especially on websites like Tumblr, that really irritates me. This movement calls itself "fat acceptance" or "body positivity", and from what I have seen it essentially advocates that overweight people should embrace their obesity as harmlessly viable, even beautiful. They are the ones who complain the most about how society or the media glamorizes thinner physiques at the expense of obese people who suffer from low self-esteem. The way they present the issue, overweight people are an oppressed class in the same sense as Africans, homosexuals, or women.

Pardon me, but I don't have much sympathy for fat acceptance. Obesity is not a harmless and biologically innate property that people are born with the way sex, sexual orientation, or so-called racial features are. Instead it is an environmentally induced and inherently unhealthy condition that has grown prevalent only in humanity's most recent history. Fat acceptance advocates whine about how society won't tolerate their obesity and accommodate them, but they would better spend their energy actually shifting to a healthier lifestyle and losing weight.

To be fair, I don't advance that overweight people should be bullied simply for being overweight, and I do think that certain segments of society (especially lower-class people of color in the US) suffer environmental conditions more conducive to obesity. What I can't stand are those overweight people who refuse to do anything about their unhealthiness and even deny that they have a problem. Instead of demanding that society glorify your obesity as beautiful, why not actually better yourself and become genuinely beautiful?


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## Scribble (Jul 21, 2013)

The problem seems to be a primarily US phenomenon. There's a 30% obesity rate in the US, compared to most developed countries of the world with an average of 10%. This creates an arbitrary "class" of people. Fashions tend to flow from Europe to the west. Fashions in a country where 10% of people are overweight, and likely older people who are "out of fashion" have little or no negative cultural impact on young people. In the US, there are many obese young people. When fashions for average weight people are desired by obese people, it creates a psychological problem.

Being obese is dangerous for your health. It is an undesirable state. By working to make it acceptable for people to be obese may appear to benefit the self-esteem of obese people in some twisted way, but it only serves to make it socially acceptable to be *unhealthy*. That is what is dangerous about it.

I used to be obese. It sort of crept up on me in my late 20's. I ended up with a big round belly and a fat neck. I was eating all the wrong things: bread, french fries, muffins, crackers, cereal, beef, pork, etc... All this food is high calorie, high carbs and fat. Combine that with a sitting down job, driving to work, sitting on computer, etc... A recipe for a heart attack at 40. Six years ago I changed everything. Daily exercise of 45 minutes, I don't drive to the train station, I walk, no matter the weather. I walk for 45 minutes at lunch. Walk the dog. Despite the fact that I work on a computer, I get at least 2 hours of high speed walking in a day. I don't eat that crap any more. I eat vegetables, fruit, nuts and seeds, eggs, and occasional fish. I still have fluctuations, mostly because I like wine. Alcohol is sugar, and sugar is stored as fat. I try to keep it under control. In 6 years I went from 265 to 190.

When I was overweight, I lacked energy and I was always in pain somewhere. I thought that was what it was like to be alive: lethargic and in pain. Now, at 41, I can outrun most 20 year olds. I look much better. I still have about 10-15 lbs I need to lose. 

I needed to do this not just for my life, but that of my children. When my son, now 17, was 9, he started getting fat. I was working all the time, and we were eating so poorly, he was suffering for it. When the weekend came, I didn't have the energy to get him out and moving like he needed to be. His school gym class... they would stack cups! How can you burn calories and build muscle stacking cups? My bad lifestyle was affecting him. I didn't see it. Now, he's fit, he's healthy. We started going to the gym together when he was 12. There were complaints. But I dragged him with me, and now he is doing it on his own. I set up a gym downstairs and he keeps himself fit.

My two young daughters grew up eating vegetables and fruit as 90% of their diet. It's normal, that's what they eat. They are very athletic because I am athletic. We turn off the TV and go outside, to the park, playing soccer, basketball, we take hikes, we have dance parties at night instead of only watching television, we move our bodies.

We all get old. There's two kinds of old. There's the kind who is 80 who can enjoy physical activity and good health, and there is the kind that lives in a world of pain who struggle to move from the sofa to bed. We should try to increase our chances of being the good kind of old. My dad eats terrible, he never exercises. He had a heart attack 2 weeks ago. He's got diabetes. All from obesity. My step dad is 70, he volunteers at the YMCA every day and does a work out. He can run marathons. He helped me carry in a washing machine a little while back. That's the kind of old I want to be. Not the kind living in pain and fear of death or worse... laying in a bed for years until death, trapped under the weight of my own body. Dante eat your heart out, that's no hell I want to be in.

The question is one of selfishness. When we try to make our obese selves feel better, we make it easier for children to accept obesity as normal. Danger alarms should be going off.


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## ndmellen (Jul 21, 2013)

Jabrosky- First of all, good for you. Obesity is a pandemic in America, and the worst part is that it's completely controllable.

That's all I'll say about it for now.

For about five years I was a personal trainer and competitive bodybuilder. When it came to cutting weight, this is what I had all of my clients do (and what I also use myself.)

Go to Wal-Mart. Buy a stationary bike. Put it in front of the TV. First thing in the morning, chug (not sip) a cup of black coffee (add ice to cool it down.) Get on the bike for twenty five minutes while you watch TV/ movies/ video game/ read/ internet, etc. Much later in the day (6-10 hours) get back on the bike for another 15 minutes. Do this 6 days a week.

That's it.

Two sessions of cardio (no matter how long) has a synergistic effect, causing your metabolism to run higher during the day (i.e., you're burning more calories without doing anything.) I don't know what your level of fitness is, but the goal is for you to get to two 45 minute sessions each day. Sound extreme? It is...and it works. By the time you get to 45 minx2, you'll be shocked with how much weight is coming off of you. And that's the goal, right? Once your metabolism kicks in and learns what you are asking it to do (and for most people this takes about two weeks), don't be surprised if you are losing up to twenty pounds a month.

Don't worry too much about changing your diet (for right now.) "Abs are built in the kitchen" is a common saying, but diets break people faster than exercise. Try to eat clean (no soda, fried food, snacks, fast food, etc), but let the cardio do the work for you (once again, for right now)

Losing weight is much simpler than people think. In "scientific terms" you create a caloric deficit (burn more calories than you take in.) In reality, it's just being consistent. Doing the exact same thing every day.

Once again, good for you. If you have any questions at all, don't hesitate to ask.


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## Scribble (Jul 21, 2013)

If I have five rules for maintaining healthy weight:

*1. Don't drink your calories. *

Don't drink milk, don't drink pop, don't drink juice. Drink water. Drink green tea. Drink water with a twist of lemon in it.

*2. Don't eat sugar.*

Get it out of the house. Learn where it lurks. It may be hiding in your bread. It's in milk and cheese. Lact*ose* - anything that ends in *ose* is a sugar. Learn to say, "No, thank you." Repeat it a thousand times. This is what you say when someone offers you that piece of cake. No, thank you.

*3. Eat well, mostly vegetables, not too much.*

Take pride in your food preparation. Like the French say, eat five colors a day. Eating foods of different colors are an easy way to know you are getting a balanced nutrition.

*4. Exercise daily*

Very, very few people can lose weight only with exercise. 90% of everyone MUST change their diet. It doesn't mean starving yourself, it means making good choices. Exercise will help your body burn that good food. 

*5. Treat yourself once a week*

When you have that craving, that temptation, tell yourself that your treat day is coming. Maybe it is Friday night. Plan it, make a big sundae. A plate of nachos with cheese. Pizza. A bottle of red with a loaf of bread. Whatever your poison is, let yourself have it once a week. When you are faced with temptation, you have that in your pocket. It gives you power to say no in the moment because you have the trade-off of your weekly treat. 



*Psychology*

We've inherited brains with hyper-active sugar detectors. We want sugar. It's got lots of energy, that's why we like it. We are biological machines who have a defense mechanism evolved against famine: fat storage. In North America, there is no famine. There is an overabundance of high calorie foods always within reach. This torments our brains. It's really unfair, but there's no point crying about it. You have to use some psychology on yourself. You can do it. One day at a time. Failure is the fuel of success. When you slip, you treat it as a lesson. How did you slip? What can you do to protect you from yourself? How can you ensure future success? What reactions can you train yourself to have? What tricks can you learn from this? Forget yesterday, focus on what you can do today to make you better today and plan how to be better tomorrow.


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## Kit (Jul 21, 2013)

A big part of the struggle for many overweight people is self-esteem. They feel so awful about themselves that it is difficult to get in the mental game to try to lose weight. If some of those people can internalize the message that they are beautiful at any size, it can help give them a little pride/dignity back and thus give them the boost they need to do the work. In that respect, I think it can be helpful for some.


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## Scribble (Jul 21, 2013)

Kit said:


> A big part of the struggle for many overweight people is self-esteem. They feel so awful about themselves that it is difficult to get in the mental game to try to lose weight. If some of those people can internalize the message that they are beautiful at any size, it can help give them a little pride/dignity back and thus give them the boost they need to do the work. In that respect, I think it can be helpful for some.



I have sympathy for this. I know people close to me who "medicate" with comfort food. It's ultimately self-destructive behavior, but you can really get into a rut. It's hard.

But when we talk about social norms, those who fall prey to harmful norms are children. Adults can make decisions about what is normal in their lives. You can blame your parents, you can blame society, but ultimately it's your decision, hard as the execution may be. But children.. they inherit as their normal what we say is normal. If you are _normal_, there's no need to change.

_Normal _isn't necessarily *good*, it's simply what everyone around you is doing. We get in bad ways when we have damaging things in our _normal_.

It's like saying, there's no problem here people, this is all perfectly normal. That's rather Orwellian.


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## Rinzei (Jul 21, 2013)

I'm not an advocacy of fat acceptance by any means - I'm obese and I know it's my own fault and that it's not good for me. But I feel like people should lose weight for the reasons Scribble and ndmellen have said - because it's unhealthy. 

But that's not why most people throw themselves into diets, is it? They do it because people around them (society, media, heck - for some it's friends and family) make them feel like they are BAD people for being fat. Who wants to be treated and dismissed as grotesque just because of their size? And losing weight for THAT reason is just as unhealthy to me, because you aren't concerned with your health when you do that. You become desperate - you crash diet, you don't eat, you push yourself too hard and in the end you end up an emotional mess and bounce your waist size right back up with stress eating. Or worse, you end yourself up in the hospital.


I know the main point of your topic is that losing weight is healthy for you and I agree. My mother tried to lose weight for years because of her diabetes, her high blood pressure, and her lack of stamina. We all supported her because she wasn't concerned with people accepting her as a new person - she just wanted to be able to walk farther before being tired, to chase her grandson around without having to stop every five minutes for breath. 

But that's not what the "fat acceptance" people are seeing. They're seeing the people that develop eating disorders in an effort to look "beautiful". Whether being fat makes you ugly, I don't know - beauty is subjective. But I can't say that I'm too attracted to my own face and body. But there is a terrible fact that on the whole, ugliness is equated with being lesser. And no one wants to feel lesser.


(Sorry if I offend anyone - but there are two sides to everything and I didn't see this side come out yet.)


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## Scribble (Jul 21, 2013)

Although I know they just want to sell soap, I do admire Dove's "campaign for real beauty". Creating unrealistic beauty ideals with extremely thin models and air-brushing is certainly harmful. That is creating an unrealistic ideal almost nobody can achieve.

I don't want to see anyone feel bad about their self-image. Self-acceptance is not easy when you fall outside the "standard" by which beauty is judged. I think we should do what we can to shift that "standard" away from anorexic-looking models, towards a "healthy" standard.

Yes, it's mixed up with body image, but if we take a soft hand on the issue because we don't want people to feel bad... that's pretty much lays out the greatest evils of political correctness. Killing with kindness?

To me, it always comes down to children because we have to deal with our own adult messes, but we need to consider what we are telling the ones to come. Are we going to say, ""Kids, it's just fine to be obese, you don't need to change. You can eat whatever you want and not exercise, and we are all okay with that." 

The problem is that this condition of obesity is mixed up with self-esteem and body image. Nobody is feeling bad about their appearance for having hypertension. When we talk to people with high blood pressure, we tell them in no uncertain terms: don't eat sugar, don't drink booze, watch your cholesterol, avoid salt, fix your problem. We don't tell them, that it's fine to have high blood pressure, people should just accept you for the way you are. So what if you might have a stroke, nobody should judge you for that.

The problem is a bizarre food culture that has emerged in the American lifestyle. I went to Applebee's in the US and what they put on my plate was shocking. Our entire table of four could have eaten from just one plate. There must have been 7 potatoes worth of french fries on the plate.


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## Filk (Jul 23, 2013)

Scribble, in response to obesity being a primarily USA problem - Mexico has surpassed the United States as having the highest per capita obesity rates. 

I don't think one should feel pressured to design their body based on averages or media/advertising. but I do agree that morbid obesity is a serious health risk and contributes greatly to the high cost of health care. There's an absurdly high cigarette tax for the same reason, but taxing weight is a difficult thing to pin down.

Take, for example, Native American peoples that have been forced from their traditional hunting and nomadic grounds and are therefore forced into living more sedentary lifestyles that involve eating junk food because it is cheap. Due to their genetic metabolic structures, some of them gain weight very easily.

Anyway, good luck with the weight loss Jabrosky. One tip off the top of my head would be to try and cut out as much wheat as possible; eliminating it altogether for a period isn't a bad idea either. I started eating a little wheat again recently and have gained 10 pounds because of it. Also, stay active. Walks are a great idea as you burn more fat that way than if you had run the same distance!


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 23, 2013)

Filk said:


> Scribble, in response to obesity being a primarily USA problem - Mexico has surpassed the United States as having the highest per capita obesity rates.


I read that as well. This has a lot to do with diet and some genetics as well.

I work with diabetes as a professional focus. The analogy I like to use concerning weight loss and the health benefits is this:

Genetics is a loaded gun. A bad lifestyle is your finger on the trigger.

A good diet takes effort and retraining. You have to alter ingrained behavior, which is difficult. You have to change how you cook, how you eat, even the way you shop. The easiest change to make is portion ratio. What I mean by this is how much of each food type resides on your plate each meal.

Recommendation:
Think of your plate like a pie chart....
25% protein
25% carb (not piled high)
50% fresh vegetables (preferably steamed)

Start like that...if you can do that for 3 months, you'll be shocked in the change in health & appearance. 

Next, don't constantly weigh yourself during this period. Do it only once a week, at the same time of day (for example, Sunday morning at 10am). This promotes consistent weight comparisons and will keep you from over/under estimations of weight loss (your weight will fluctuate naturally all the time). A weekly measurement is more accurate to assess gains and losses.

Hope that helps, and good luck.


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## Ophiucha (Jul 26, 2013)

I'm not obese, but I am fat, and I am _definitely _in favour of fat acceptance.

Your health is important! Being fit and eating well is important, and as a cook, I particularly focus on the latter. But while our culture has created an obesity epidemic, it's also created an epidemic of eating disorders. The obesity epidemic is not something that can be cured by telling people that fatness is ugly, that it's unhealthy and that you're killing your children. Because the epidemic isn't coming from the people who can change that by signing up for a gym membership and changing their diets, it's almost entirely the lower class that has skyrocketed the numbers up for obesity. Telling people that they are ugly and unhealthy? That doesn't kill obesity, that just contributes to the anorexia epidemic.

Further, fat acceptance is far less about saying 'let's all eat cake!' and more 'stop glaring at us like we're the god damn devil because we've got a couple of folds okay?'. It's about being discriminated against in the work place, despite the fact that - yes - many fat people do have physical disabilities that make it harder to lose weight. There are people who _die _because their doctors blame everything on their weight. This happened to my mother, who is also on the fat-but-not-quite-obese side of things. She went to a psychiatrist for her anxiety. It was genetic anxiety, passed down in our family, and it was clearly being triggered by my brother's teenage rebellion years. Every time he got suspended from school or got detention, she'd have a panic attack. The doctor took _six months_ of therapy - _six months_ - to acknowledge that it wasn't just depression because of her weight. That was six months where she wasn't being treated appropriately for her anxiety because the doctor took one look at her and assumed it was just because she was fat. And this happens _all the time_. I had a doctor assume I only wanted birth control pills to help with my acne until I pulled up a _wedding photo_ on my phone to prove that yes, I do want them for their intended purpose, thanks.

Appropriate, cheap, _long-term_ diets and a variety of accessible exercises should be taught in schools, reported on in the news, and spread to the lower class. Something permanent, and not a fad diet that you stick with for two weeks then go back to your usual Burger King selections. I've read articles about how we should, in essence, just let McDonald's take the charge and just make cheap, processed healthy foods instead of cheeseburgers and fries, but frankly, I don't trust McDonald's to do that. Here's an article that sort of meets in the middle on the poverty-obesity line, and though I've got some problems with his proposed solution, he does include the pun 'let them eat kale', so it gets a pass in my book. 

Basically, I think it's important to stop shaming fat people for being fat. If for no other reason than the fact that it doesn't help people lose weight. It's important to look critically at the studies about obesity, because doctors are just as biased as any other human being. Remember that the BMI is utter nonsense. It's important to acknowledge that some people will always be fat. That obese and fat people have _always _existed, and it's just some modern phenomena. That some of those people may be better off in the long term if they stay fat than trying to lose too much weight. That these things are not black and white. Many Americans are obese, too fat for their genetics, but nine times out of ten, the problem isn't the fat person. It's the food we have available (food deserts, fast food), it's the time we have available (many lower class people work two jobs; try and fit an hour at the gym into that schedule), and it's what we're told by the media. We're told "go a month without eating hamburger buns!" and we lose the 10 lbs and then we go back to eating hamburger buns and gain 15lbs back in a week. It's a toxic culture we've built. Fat acceptance says blame the culture, blame the big diet industry, blame McDonald's, blame the media, but _stop blaming fat people_. Most of us were raised fat! We were those children you keep screaming about protecting. Y'all didn't manage to stop it then, and now you're blaming us for that?

Also, "become _genuinely _beautiful"? I have words for that which I can't use on this site due to the policy about cursing, but please know that I'm thinking them.


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## Jabrosky (Jul 26, 2013)

@ Ophiucha

I appreciate you clarifying the fat acceptance position for us and apologize for my mistaken characterization of it in my OP. I agree that healthy living is harder for some segments of society (e.g. the lower classes) than others, so I don't subscribe to the belief that overweight people should be demonized for their condition either. If that's what fat acceptance maintains, I agree with it.


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## C Hollis (Jul 26, 2013)

My sister-in-law is obese because of a medical condition that was only recently discovered (she's in her late 40's).  The woman has never eaten a full meal, yet she is obese.  Her problem is with her heart and arteries (too small), among other things.  Things that weren't brought on because of weight, it is the other way around.  So, I do take issue with people generalizing obese people.

However.

I'm fat.  Not what I consider obese, though the bogus BMI numbers say otherwise.  Even at my "fighting weight", I am considered obese by BMI standards.  But, without a doubt in my mind, I am fat.

Why am I fat?  Because I like food and I have a primarily desk job.  And I like food.  I'm not fat because of my parents.  I'm not fat because there is a McDonald's on every corner.  I am fat because I like cheeseburgers, burritos, pizza, and steak.  I'm not fat because there aren't healthier, inexpensive alternatives to the food I enjoy; there are.  I am fat because I haven't been to the gym in a year.  I am not fat because I can't afford a gym membership, or the equipment; there are ways to exercise without expensive equipment.  I am fat because at some point in the last year, I got too lazy to stay in shape.

We live in a society that likes to blame others for our own problems.  That is a fact, and it is also crap.  I have nobody to blame but myself for the shape I am in.

But you won't find me passing judgement on others.  My outlook is simple; until your house is clean, don't judge the condition of mine.


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## Rinzei (Jul 26, 2013)

Thanks for weighing in (oh god, no pun intended, I swear...) on this, Ophiucha and C Hollis. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that feels this way about my weight. I do agree with both of your views - there are things that get in our path to staying health (I myself have only just found out of a medical condition which has helped lead to my "comfort eating"), but it's still up to us to overcome them - IF we want to.


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## Devor (Jul 28, 2013)

The Wii fit puts me right over the line into obese.  I couldn't care less about that, but I've recently been making changes to pick my energy levels up in a positive direction.  The one that's helped the most was changing my breakfast.  I googled about healthy breakfasts until I found something about "what nutritionists eat for breakfast," and I tried to adjust my breakfast based on what I read.

I used to eat:  Plain bagel with cream cheese.
Now I eat:  Whole wheat bagel.  Half as a cheddar cheese sandwich.  Half spread with peanut butter, a dripline of honey, and a sprinkle of craisins.

That made a much bigger difference than I was expecting it to.  I feel fuller so I eat less later.  I have more energy in the mornings.  I've been losing weight - not rapidly, but some.  And I genuinely look forward to my breakfast in the morning, so it helps me get out of bed (not that the kids jumping on me doesn't wake me right up...).

All that said, I've lived in the south, where obesity is pretty much everywhere, and I have to say:  You can be obese and still be pretty healthy, have a ton of energy, and be absolutely happy with yourself, especially since they changed the weight labels a few years ago.  I've known some pretty fat people to work 14 hour days on their feet without slowing down much.

So I'm going to advocate that people eat and live a little healthier, sure absolutely, but if someone wants to be happy with themselves, I say more power to them.


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## Scribble (Jul 29, 2013)

Humans imprint the foods that are "safe to eat" by about 5 years of age. Whatever you are fed in those years register as safe, comfort foods. Whatever is not in that list is immediately "yucky". It doesn't mean you can't learn to like them, but the older we get, the more difficult it seems to be. I don't think that is because of some resistance to change, but as we grow older, we develop more autonomy over our diets, Mom isn't forcing us to eat our Brussel sprouts.

This is a very good evolutionary adaptation. These berries are good, those are bad. These animals are safe to eat, if you cook them like this. These nuts are good, those are not. This is how humans learned to eat for millions of years.

The other adaptation we have is a high drive for sugar and starch. These are rare in nature. You have to eat a lot of strawberries to get the same sugar you can get in one Pepsi. You'd be stuffed with berries before you reached a quarter can's worth. 

Our third adaptation is that we can store that energy as fat, in case of famine. For us, it's a famine that never comes.

Our current food culture is subverting our evolutionary advantages to make us *sick*. It's not a lifestyle, or a sub-culture. We are killing ourselves with over-eating. Calling it a lifestyle is like putting a bow on the coffin.

The costs of the rampant sickness that obesity causes taxes the nation heavily: heart attacks, diabetes, joint problems, back problems, and cancer.

I'm all for making people feel better about themselves, but this is a sinister thing going on. Fat acceptance = sickness acceptance.

I'm not saying anyone should be forced to be healthy, but calling the side-effect of eating habits that result in sickness and early death something we should support... it's absolutely insane.

Adults making themselves feel better about their obesity puts children on the happy treadmill to their own sickness. This is reprehensible and socially dangerous.

I regret if I insulted anyone with this, but as someone who has been obese, who has seen obesity kill and maim members of his family, who has children, I feel I would be adding to the problem by holding back my opinion.


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## rhd (Jul 29, 2013)

"Fat acceptance = sickness acceptance."
Nope, sorry Sribs, you've got it wrong. Fat acceptance talks more of the psychological impact of fat-hatred. It's not an excuse to send people into a self-pity trip. It's about teaching people that the fat people out there marring your scenery have every right to be out there, improving there lives, going to work without people being hateful to them. People can be ridiculously hateful to fat people, and this affects not only their body image, it trickles into their relationships, their work life, important life decisions, everything. It's bad enough that the end goal to health and overall wellness is often confused with physical beauty, ie., current beauty aesthetics. Also see skinny fat. I'm pretty sure several environmental factors contribute to the quality of our diet, hormones, antibiotics, carcinogens just to name a few.
I was a very physically active child and as soon as I matured people began to tease me about the way I was shaped it made me hide away, I became inactive and then the problem actually began. Now I see a lot of kids going through this.  Fat-shaming PSAs are also bizarre, they villainize fat children when they should be promoting healthy eating and making parents more responsible for their children's diet. Also, the obvious problem is that people on the dollar-menu diets are obviously the ones suffering the most, commonly from diabetes. Like it or not, food and nutrition are a national economic, logistics and attitude problem. It is not the fat person's fault. My friend's kid gained a massive amount of weight over a couple of months because of the 'healthy' smoothies that were being aggressively marketed at their school cafeteria. Once they found out what the problem was, he dropped the kilos.
Fat people super comfortable with their bodies are rare but even that makes other people incredibly uncomfortable. They're active, eat healthy but this pisses off the fat-hating people who are looking at them. This is another the kind of hatred that fat-acceptance addresses, but I hope you get the idea now. There are a lot of factors, it isn't and _shouldn't_ be about a lackadaisical approach to health, it's about stopping the hate.


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## Devor (Jul 29, 2013)

Scribble said:


> I'm all for making people feel better about themselves, but this is a sinister thing going on. Fat acceptance = sickness acceptance.



You realize that for many sicknesses, acceptance is the _only_ treatment?  I know that isn't true for obesity, but my point is that _acceptance and adjustment are a treatment for illness._  Taking that away from someone is taking away a healthy and important piece of the healthy-lifestyle puzzle.  It's a way to make things worse.

I understand that you want everybody to be in panic-mode fighting their own obesity.  But more likely, being stuck in panic-mode is why they became obese.  Acceptance gets a person out of panic-mode, and into a healthier mindset.  A healthier mindset makes healthier choices.

And that's the path forward.


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## Steerpike (Jul 29, 2013)

It seems to me it makes sense to distinguish based on the underlying causes. I just heard a report on state radio this morning about a genetic link tied to weight problems, and scientists are starting to figure out which genes they are, what proteins they code for, and how they work. That, to me, is distinct from someone who is at an unhealthy weight only because of lack or exercise and/or poor diet.

Of course, the difficulty is that you cannot distinguish the two by appearance, but I believe people should be treated respectfully regardless of appearances. This idea of acceptance versus non-acceptance seems to pertain to societal views as a whole, and in that case I think distinctions between various causes of obesity makes sense. 

Advocating some kind of non-acceptance for someone who is overweight as a result of a medical condition makes no more sense that saying we shouldn't accept people who have lupus.


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## Scribble (Jul 29, 2013)

At my children's school, we have two policies that I stand behind:

There is no shaming or bullying permitted, for any reason.

The child must bring a healthy lunch, and a healthy snack (a fruit or vegetable). There is no junk food allowed. This includes granola bars. 

If you try to send your kid to school with unhealthy food, you'll get a note from the teacher, and later a call from the principal. We're lucky, very lucky. Their school is in an affluent neighborhood, so that means many volunteer parents, people with flexible schedules, who are generally well educated and socially motivated. Parents who understand the balance of nutrition and exercise usually have children who follow suit.  

That is what it takes: educated people volunteering to make a change for children. I don't think I've seen a single obese kid in the school, and no teachers either. Maybe one or two parents. But, maybe I don't have a good perspective. For me, it's not normal where I live to be obese. I went out for my lunch time walk downtown. I specifically looked around to see if I could identify any obese people. I didn't see any. I saw some people who were a bit overweight, but I didn't see fat people.

I was at the grocery store with my two girls, and in the next checkout was a family of two fat parents and two very fat children. The boy had large breasts. I was shocked by the junk they were pulling out of their cart. Pastry cakes, and crackers, and just piles of sugar and starch. 

My girls, 6 and 8 have a good level of social awareness. Thankfully, she waited until we were at the car to ask me. She asked me why they were all so fat and if they were fat, why they were buying all the junk food. Our grocery was about $100 of vegetables and fruit, by comparison. I said the only thing I thought I could say, I said that probably the mom and dad grew up eating that sort of food, and that's all they know what to eat. It wasn't a great answer. I felt kind of awkward about it, but it was the only honest answer I could give her. They just didn't know what to eat to maintain health. It did not occur to me to say that they didn't care about health.

So, I teach my children to be be careful with words, not to hurt. But, whatever they say, under it all *nobody is fooled*. I would scold my child equally for being unkind to a child with Down syndrome or for being obese, but at the same time, everyone knows that it is avoidable, some *rare *genetic cases aside. In the case of the child, the fault of the parent, in the case of the adult, their own choice and responsibility.

When I think of communities where being fat is a norm, doing away with the pressure to become fit by making it "just A-Ok" to be fat, gives me the chills. When I was overweight, the best thing anyone said to me was "Dude, you really let yourself go." That was a moment that woke me up, and I realized how poor my health had gotten. Huffing and puffing at the second flight of stairs was not a good sign, but it was in the fresh mirror of other people that I understood my situation, so slow did it creep up on me.

I'm not saying I want anyone hurt, but I'm just not convinced this is the right way. In schools, certainly, there should be no shaming. Pretending in our society, dancing around a health epidemic... seems both disingenuous and potentially harmful. The message that people take is usually what they think benefits them, not what would most benefit them.


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## Scribble (Jul 29, 2013)

I've decided this will be the last "political discussion" I get into here. I apologize if any of my words have hurt anyone's feelings.

I care about people, I want everyone to be healthy, but also happy.


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## Rinzei (Jul 30, 2013)

Scribble said:


> I've decided this will be the last "political discussion" I get into here. I apologize if any of my words have hurt anyone's feelings.
> 
> I care about people, I want everyone to be healthy, but also happy.



Scribbles - I'm sorry if you feel you might have offended anyone. I personally wasn't offended by your opinion, because I could tell it was coming from a health concern point-of-view and that's one I respect. I can't speak for anyone else, but my response to the thread was based on that fact that health isn't why most people try to lose weight - it's a societal need to be "skinny". And it is a difference between losing weight to be healthy and losing weight to be skinny. Most people are after the latter - I agree with you, however, that the former should be the reason for losing weight.

If I was ever offended by anything in this thread at any point, it wasn't from you - just rest assured of that. I agree that the thread may have gotten a little sensitive - I think it was doomed to step on someone's toes from the get-go.


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## ndmellen (Aug 3, 2013)

hey, Jabrosky, I wanted to check in with you and see how you are doing.


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## Scribble (Aug 5, 2013)

Rinzei said:


> Scribbles - I'm sorry if you feel you might have offended anyone. I personally wasn't offended by your opinion, because I could tell it was coming from a health concern point-of-view and that's one I respect. I can't speak for anyone else, but my response to the thread was based on that fact that health isn't why most people try to lose weight - it's a societal need to be "skinny". And it is a difference between losing weight to be healthy and losing weight to be skinny. Most people are after the latter - I agree with you, however, that the former should be the reason for losing weight.
> 
> If I was ever offended by anything in this thread at any point, it wasn't from you - just rest assured of that. I agree that the thread may have gotten a little sensitive - I think it was doomed to step on someone's toes from the get-go.



Alright, thanks. 

I was looking over some photos. It took me 6 years to lose my weight and get fit. I had to unlearn all the bad things I had been taught, go counter to what our food culture is pushing, and change my lifestyle. Today, I have energy, no pain. Best of all, when I go the park with my kids, I climb the trees and monkey bars with them! I can do it all, and it's because I treat my body as something sacred. I don't put junk into it. The side effect is that I also look good.

6 years ago... 260 lbs and zero muscle. I was always sick, in pain, lethargic, unable to enjoy living in my body.








3 years ago...







2 years ago...







1 year ago.







I've spent years reading, learning, and experimenting with what gets me to my optimal health. I make all my own food. I've discovered a joy of cooking. Friday nights, I have a little wine and start chopping vegetables, making culinary magic. Rather than a source of shame and indigestion, food has become a positive experience. The conclusion I have come to is that our western world, they way it works, unless you fight it, will make you fat and sick. Our western culture is health-broken.


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## Motley (Aug 5, 2013)

I think self-acceptance got a bit blown out of proportion in cases like this. Nothing unhealthy should be glorified, in my opinion. But being overweight is so insanely vilified and attacked that people probably feel the need to stand together to get any type of support at all. It keeps the focus on the wrong thing: the body, instead of the person inside.

 There are people who find very large people more attractive than thin people, and they can join groups of "chubby-lovers" or whatever you want to call them. There is no question that it's unhealthy and should be worked on, but I don't think anyone should feel the need to think their own body is disgusting.


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## Jabrosky (Aug 5, 2013)

ndmellen said:


> hey, Jabrosky, I wanted to check in with you and see how you are doing.


Not so well, I'm sorry to say. I have been slacking on the exercise. In fact that's been a recurring theme for me whenever I try to lose weight. I stay committed for a few days or weeks and successfully shed a few pounds, but as time progresses my enthusiasm wanes and I start slacking and gaining weight again. Worsening the issue even more is that I've always disliked the taste of most so-called healthy foods (except for certain fruits). I am starting to doubt that I have the willpower to ever lose weight permanently.

Thank you for the concern. 



Motley said:


> There are people who find very large people more attractive than thin  people, and they can join groups of "chubby-lovers" or whatever you want  to call them. There is no question that it's unhealthy and should be  worked on, but I don't think anyone should feel the need to think their  own body is disgusting.


The problem with me in particular is that even though I'm fat myself, I don't regard fat figures as physically attractive. Especially not on women. All the girls that attract me are much leaner and shapely than myself. That wouldn't cause such a problem if there were thinner women who were open to larger men, but somehow it doesn't seem fair to gravitate towards slender ladies when I'm obese.


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## Kit (Aug 5, 2013)

I on the other hand am doing great. I am in the process of dropping fifteen pounds in order to compete in a tournament in the fall, and this morning I am 7 pounds down with 8 to go.  Lots of hard work, though- all day, every day.

Eating so much chicken breast and eggs that I'm expecting to start laying eggs myself any minute.


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## Scribble (Aug 5, 2013)

My five principles might sound like cheesy slogans, but it's the essence how I got to where I wanted to be.

1) Failure is the fuel of success.
2) The past is gone, act today, plan for tomorrow.
3) Willpower is a feeble ally.
4) Burn the calories.
5) Change the diet.


*Failure is the fuel of success*

Getting to success is learning about what causes you to fail and finding ways to avoid it. We slipped, we didn't go to the gym, we bought the chips/cookies/fries and we ate them. And then we did it again. And we think we can't.

Self-recrimination is a very useful tool! So long as we use it constructively. We made plans, and we failed at those plans. Why? What happened? What could you have done differently?

These little events, these moments are the real gems! They give you a clear and sober look at what your default programming leads you to do. You've got to change the programming. You've got to treat this as an exercise of changing your brain, not your body.

Think about what happened, and how you can do it differently next time. That's how we change. There's no other way I know of.


*The past is gone, act today, plan for tomorrow.*

F*** yesterday! It's gone, to hell with it. Trying to keep it around just clutters up the place. 

What separates us from the other animals is we can make plans for the future and change our behavior. 

Plan out your day on a little notepad. Visualize yourself going through your day doing the things you planned to do. Think about the ways in which you failed in the past, and what your practiced response to those moments will be.


*Willpower is a feeble ally.*

Brain science has shown that will power works kind of like a reservoir. You were `good` all day, then, you are presented with a temptation to eat something bad, or slack off exercising... and bam! You can`t even believe it, you are doing it, and you can`t stop yourself? Why? It's so frustrating!

We like to think we have free will, but we really don`t. If you scan your brain, every idea you have in your conscious mind was already made by your sub-conscious mind milliseconds before you became aware of it. You are *mostly *the puppet of your subconscious. 

But, *not entirely*. We`ve got a little window to try to change that default programming, that`s your conscious mind.

*KNOW *that your will power will run out. Get rid of the stuff in the house. Get rid of the crackers (a killer), get rid of anything snacky. The honey. Toss out the peanut butter. Anything you might find yourself binge-eating.

Your body wants to maintain it's current weight. When you start losing, you will feel urges to conserve calories, and to get them back. These are the cycles you need to use your brain to protect against. This is the part where it gets hard.

But then, it goes. You settle into a new plateau. Your body settles in. You lost 5 lbs, and you feel fine. Start another cycle, a new goal. 

Willpower is garbage. Don't rely on it. Be smart.


*Burn the calories.*

Do things that are fun. Start with long walks, listen to some new stuff. There are some awesome SF and Fantasy fiction podcasts. Load em up on your player and enjoy. A 25 minute podcast is a good listen and a good power walk.

http://escapepod.org/
Lightspeed Magazine | Science Fiction & Fantasy
Beneath Ceaseless Skies - Literary Adventure Fantasy

*Change the diet.*

This is the hardest one. Your partner or parents are used to you eating a certain way, and they probably eat the same way. It's damned hard to change other people. Don't. Change yourself. 

This is how I lost my first 30 lbs. I couldn't exercise, I had a hernia surgery because I let my gut get so big I busted it.

LA Weight Loss is actually the basis of a very healthy diet.

*Daily*

2 large proteins (8 oz chicken, 5 oz beef/pork, 6 oz fish)
4 vegetables (1 cup raw, 1/2 cup cooked)
2 starches (1 small potato, 1 slice bread)
3 fruit (an orange, apple, 15 grapes)
2 light protein snacks (tbsp sunflower seeds, an egg, a 9 gram protein bar)
1 dairy (1 cup milk)
2 extra (tsp ketchup, tbsp salad dressing)
6 glasses of water a day - don't drink any calories. Drink green tea all you want, it's good for ya. Add a twist of lemon.


Once a week, have a carb craver. Plate of nachos, bag of popcorn, big pasta meal. A few beers. I did it Fridays as a treat.

*Alchohol. *

If you want a beer, it's one starch. A glass of wine is one starch AND one fruit. So, swap wisely.

That's the losing diet. The maintaining diet is the same as above, only you add 1 starch, and 1 dairy. You may have to adjust for frame size. You'll know just by the scale. 

The secret is being prepared. I made all my food in advance, and I had it all with me to work. A big bag.


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## Caged Maiden (Aug 5, 2013)

I hate exercise.  Yep.  HATE it!!! 

The thing is, I'm 120 lbs and 5'3", so I don't worry about it much.  I know, however, that active, overweight people are often healthier than thin, sedentary people.  SO there's that to consider, too.  Some people just store fat differently, and it's something they become ashamed of.  That's sad, really.  My mother has struggled with her weight her whole adult life and recently lost 70 pounds (we have the same exact skeleton, so imagine my horror to find she was carrying a hundred extra pounds than me on the same bones).  I'm so proud of her.  When people make positive changes, whether it's leaving a demeaning relationship, taking up a new hobby to learn more, or losing weight, it shows in them.  Their personalities change and their outlook becomes brighter.  I think anything that makes people feel better about themselves and gets them to live a little more is a good change.  No matter what.  

Way to go, all you people in this world who are actively trying to make your one chance on this earth a little longer and happier.  That's all we can do.

Last year I weighed 140 pounds ( I didn't lose the 10 pounds I gained with my third baby) and I didn't feel as awesome as normal.  But I've had a pain condition for years that has made me miserable.  Last year, I lost 20 pounds because I can't eat when I'm in pain and then I began taking pain killers every day and they suppressed my appetite.  I feel better now, not only because I'm no longer in pain, but because I feel like I look good, feel great, and am a way better mother to my kids now that I'm no longer suffering through a crippling condition. I would honestly trade being in pain for being fat.  SO... like I said, all we can do is the best we can.  Honesty with ourselves is priceless and while I hate admitting I'm medicated to deal with my pain, I'm a much happier person now that I don't have to open a bag of chips and leave my four small children unattended while I go lie down because "Mommy's neck hurts too much today."

I'm glad to hear success stories anyone wants to share because it gives me hope of making the changes necessary for me to one day be really happy with my own skin, you know?


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## Ophiucha (Aug 5, 2013)

I have asthma that is triggered by heavy breathing and a heavy heartbeat, which makes exercising a pain in the behind. Can't run, can't play several sports. Walking and biking are both okay, though. Can't afford a bicycle (yay being poor!), but I usually can get a two mile walk into my schedule. Most of my exercise is stretching and toning, though. Doesn't do anything for my weight, but as I've expressed earlier in the thread, that's not really my _goal _while I exercise. I just keep myself healthy and active. Depending on who I'm living with (since my friends all have different exercise habits), I also go to the pool and play badminton. I prefer not to go to the pool without my husband or a small group, though, and I can't play badminton by myself, so it's not always on the table.

Mostly, I just eat healthy. Which is very easy for me, since I am also a cook with a bit of culinary school experience. It can be hard to find affordable, healthy foods - particularly in Vancouver, which has a bit of a tree hugger community of privileged rich kids - but the grocery stores tend to have good 3-for-1 deals and the farmer's market isn't too hard to get to, and cheaper than the grocery store. Learning how to freeze and preserve produce is probably the greatest thing you can do if you're trying to eat healthy on a budget, because come winter time, a head of lettuce is going to cost more than buying enough McDonald's to build your own head out of the pieces they toss on top of the patty. I grow a few of my own herbs, so knowing how to dry those and freeze them is a fantastic cost saver. Making jam is great, too.

Of course, this assumes you don't cook for a picky eater. Between my brother and my mum, I'm amazed I can come up with a month's worth of recipes. My mom won't eat whole grain or whole wheat pasta, bread, or rice. My brother won't eat any fish or more than 2 vegetarian dishes a week. Everyone but my dad is allergic to shellfish. Between the four of us, there are almost no vegetables we can agree on (I don't like tomatoes unless they are in a sauce; my dad doesn't like squash; my mom doesn't like cucumber or celery or lettuce or anything excessively crunchy or moist; my brother doesn't like anything that isn't starchy). My brother doesn't like alcohol in any sort of sauce, my mom doesn't like _onions_. I am blissfully moving out of the house in a week and a half, but I've been living with them for _nine months_ now and it's been a test of my abilities as a chef to find a way to feed everyone - _all _of whom except myself are on diets - without just serving steamed carrots and chicken breasts (my brother doesn't like brown meat) for every meal.


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## Rinzei (Aug 6, 2013)

Ophiucha said:


> I have asthma that is triggered by heavy breathing and a heavy heartbeat, which makes exercising a pain in the behind.



Exercise-induced asthma (asthma that only triggers during exercise) sucks - I have the same thing, especially for jogging/running. I feel fine 24/7 - unless I decide to take a jog. Then I get five feet and my lungs suddenly cease up. It's incredibly frustrating to me because even though I'm overweight, I don't stop because I'm tired - I'm not at all - but because my lungs suddenly decide to give up. I'm planning on seeing the doctor again to get some other medicine, because the inhalers I've used in the past weren't good enough. In the meantime, I'm moving this/next month anyway so I'll be able to jump on the exercise bike again and use that in the meantime.

With exercise-induced asthma, longer-exertion sports aren't off the table, but they can be harder to handle - such as running or soccer/football. It's recommended to do exercise/sports with shorter intervals of exertion, like volleyball, walking, etc. Swimming is also recommended, because the air around a pool stays warm and moist - cold dry air when exercising is what triggers exercise-induced asthma, so it's good for the lungs of an asthmatic. Conversely, cold-weather sports may not be the best for the same reason.


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## Scribble (Aug 6, 2013)

I have mild sleep apnea. I can breathe through my nose just fine - except when exercising heavy, I just can't get enough oxygen throughput. The nose helps regulate temperature and humidity before the air hits your lungs.

So, since I have to breathe through my mouth when running, I find it very hard to run outside in cold or hot humid weather. I live in Eastern Canada, so that's pretty much most of the year... So, I run on the treadmill at the gym, and a little outside in spring and fall.

I would LOVE to run outside all year round, but I find it I end up rasping when it's too cold or hot. So, I run on the treadmill. It's not very exciting, but I listen to good podcasts, and I do love the feel of pushing my body further than it could go before. 

That is the addiction for me. I can always improve. I can always find a new exercise that hits me a little different. I love trying out a new routine and feeling the next day a little bit of muscle in a nook that I hadn't hit before. It's a game.

Some days, I am exhausted. I was up at 6:30, left at 7, worked all day, back home 6:30, eat, play with kids, put them to bed... 8:00... I want so much just to lie down and do nothing. I grab my bag, and get my ass to the gym. Once I am there, and I get on the treadmill to warm up... my energy comes back! Then, when I get home at 9:10, I am ripped with energy. I've got two hours or so until 11:30 where I feel alert. This is when I get my writing done.

To make space for it all, I had to give up video games, television, most social media. I have this site and Twitter, that's it. Not sorry to see them go.


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## Scribble (Aug 6, 2013)

Ophiucha said:


> I have asthma that is triggered by heavy breathing and a heavy heartbeat, which makes exercising a pain in the behind. Can't run, can't play several sports. Walking and biking are both okay, though. Can't afford a bicycle (yay being poor!), but I usually can get a two mile walk into my schedule. Most of my exercise is stretching and toning, though. Doesn't do anything for my weight, but as I've expressed earlier in the thread, that's not really my _goal _while I exercise. I just keep myself healthy and active. Depending on who I'm living with (since my friends all have different exercise habits), I also go to the pool and play badminton. I prefer not to go to the pool without my husband or a small group, though, and I can't play badminton by myself, so it's not always on the table.
> 
> Mostly, I just eat healthy. Which is very easy for me, since I am also a cook with a bit of culinary school experience. It can be hard to find affordable, healthy foods - particularly in Vancouver, which has a bit of a tree hugger community of privileged rich kids - but the grocery stores tend to have good 3-for-1 deals and the farmer's market isn't too hard to get to, and cheaper than the grocery store. Learning how to freeze and preserve produce is probably the greatest thing you can do if you're trying to eat healthy on a budget, because come winter time, a head of lettuce is going to cost more than buying enough McDonald's to build your own head out of the pieces they toss on top of the patty. I grow a few of my own herbs, so knowing how to dry those and freeze them is a fantastic cost saver. Making jam is great, too.
> 
> Of course, this assumes you don't cook for a picky eater. Between my brother and my mum, I'm amazed I can come up with a month's worth of recipes. My mom won't eat whole grain or whole wheat pasta, bread, or rice. My brother won't eat any fish or more than 2 vegetarian dishes a week. Everyone but my dad is allergic to shellfish. Between the four of us, there are almost no vegetables we can agree on (I don't like tomatoes unless they are in a sauce; my dad doesn't like squash; my mom doesn't like cucumber or celery or lettuce or anything excessively crunchy or moist; my brother doesn't like anything that isn't starchy). My brother doesn't like alcohol in any sort of sauce, my mom doesn't like _onions_. I am blissfully moving out of the house in a week and a half, but I've been living with them for _nine months_ now and it's been a test of my abilities as a chef to find a way to feed everyone - _all _of whom except myself are on diets - without just serving steamed carrots and chicken breasts (my brother doesn't like brown meat) for every meal.



I make my own meals. I can't eat what everyone else eats. I take the time on Sunday and make a big batch of something and I eat it all week. I put veggies in the fridge, chop em up. I don't eat what everyone else eats, simple as that. My wife isn't interested in eating the way I do, so she eats her way, I eat mine. Most of the kids are somewhere between.

It makes more work for me on the weekend, but it's my health at stake. I'm not going to sacrifice it for the sake of convenience, or trying to please other people, even if they are my family. 

I don't eat cheese, bread, or processed meats (any meat), so if they want to have a pepperoni pizza on a Friday, that's fine. I've got my own stuff I can eat and we can sit together. I went to my mother's for Christmas dinner, and there was carrots and salad I could eat. If we are going somewhere for dinner at someone's house, I ask what they are having. My dad had a BBQ, I brought my own thing to put on the grill. I'd like it if people were sensitive to my needs, but I don't expect it, or complain about it. I don't expect anyone other than very close friends who are savvy to make something particular for me. It's my choice and it is too complex to educate people on what I can or can't eat. It took me seven years of reading, discussion, research, and experimentation to arrive at what I feel is my optimal diet: essentially ovo-vegetarian with 2-3 servings of fish per week.


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## Rinzei (Aug 6, 2013)

Scribble, I think you have more discipline regarding healthy eating than I have in my entire body. That is just...WOW. I commend you for the work you're putting in and maintaining it.


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## Scribble (Aug 6, 2013)

Rinzei said:


> Scribble, I think you have more discipline regarding healthy eating than I have in my entire body. That is just...WOW. I commend you for the work you're putting in and maintaining it.



Thanks Rinzei, but's something that evolved over years. I was totally out of balance in my early 30's. Working 60 hour weeks, playing video games until late, not eating well, smoking, not sleeping well, not exercising. I looked like shit and I felt like shit.

Slowly, bit by bit, I have worked towards achieving a balance of body-mind-spirit. I've got the body part going, but I'm always learning, always trying new things. The mind and spirit parts, still working on it.


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## Scribble (Aug 6, 2013)

Kit said:


> I on the other hand am doing great. I am in the process of dropping fifteen pounds in order to compete in a tournament in the fall, and this morning I am 7 pounds down with 8 to go.  Lots of hard work, though- all day, every day.
> 
> Eating so much chicken breast and eggs that I'm expecting to start laying eggs myself any minute.



That's great, Kit! An accomplishment.

Careful you don't end up like this woman...

Airplane! - Egg Scene - YouTube


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## Rinzei (Aug 6, 2013)

Scribble said:


> The mind and spirit parts, still working on it.



Aren't we all, aren't we all... 

I've just had my first life insurance quote that raised my premium because of my "height to weight ratio". Oof! Right in the over-sized gut! As soon as we move to our new house (which is imminent), I'm going to see about going to the dietician at my new doctor's office. The few health problems I have (oddly enough, not weight-cased!) make more conventional diets or calorie counting dangerous for me, so I'd really like to have medical help to make sure I know what's good for me personally and what's not.


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## Ophiucha (Aug 6, 2013)

God, I would _love _it if everyone in this house cooked for themselves. My mom is the one who cooks when I'm not here, and she's... not very good? I love her, but let's just say there's a reason I've been chubby since I was six. She makes _very _little from scratch, and if it can't be tossed in a slow cooker, she also doesn't like making anything that requires more than an hour's work before dinner. We end up with a lot of chewy stews, or worse, watery mush that may have once been chicken and carrots. And she uses pre-cooked chicken and jarred mushrooms and canned foods wherever she can. It's very _theoretically _healthy food, with entirely too much salt and floating bits of fat and entirely too little flavour.

My father can be a bit _traditional_, let's say, about who should be cooking in a household. And earlier this summer I caught my brother trying to make a banana smoothie by putting a single peel-on, frozen banana in the electric cheese grater, after which he hasn't tried making anything new without my supervision.

@Rinzei, I mostly stick to walking and biking if I am living with my mum (who owns a bike). I love swimming - grew up on an island - but that, basketball, and badminton are a pain because I can never find anyone _else _who wants to. It was easier in college when I could just go to the dorm's court and find someone willing to play badminton or tennis (or handball, since that was in the same area). And I avoid going to the pool by myself because of multiple bad experiences with some of the older gentlemen who are in attendance as well. My husband likes to swim, but hates public pools (and if we can't afford a bike, we certainly can't afford a _pool_), and the rest of my friends are bizarre weirdos who hate swimming.


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## Penpilot (Aug 7, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> Not so well, I'm sorry to say. I have been slacking on the exercise. In fact that's been a recurring theme for me whenever I try to lose weight. I stay committed for a few days or weeks and successfully shed a few pounds, but as time progresses my enthusiasm wanes and I start slacking and gaining weight again. Worsening the issue even more is that I've always disliked the taste of most so-called healthy foods (except for certain fruits). I am starting to doubt that I have the willpower to ever lose weight permanently.



I've been heavy for my height a while now, but until recently I never gave it much thought, because I was pretty involved in sports, three or four times a weak, so I was pretty agile and quick. I was 160lbs and 5'5. That's on the heavy side for my height. But then, a couple of years ago I cut back on my athletics to about once every week. BIG MISTAKE. I slurped up twenty pounds, and I could feel it in my joints and bones. When I saw the extra pounds, I tried to eat better and less, but that didn't work. So about four months ago started to work out, push ups, sit up, leg exercises every other day and a mile and a half run on days I wasn't doing that other stuff. On top of that I was playing hockey three times a week and softball once. I did this for a month. Another big mistake. I pushed too hard too fast. I wore myself out. My conditioning actually went down. It was scary. I couldn't exert myself athletically, eg skating hard, for more than 15 seconds without feeling exhausted afterwards.

So, I adjusted. I stopped my push ups etc., and jogging, and just kept to my hockey and softball. My conditioning improved, but it's still no where near where I was a couple of years ago. But I've lost 10lbs. My joints were feeling pretty meh for a while, but when I added walking to my routine, things started to feel better. Two to four times a week during the evening, I walk a mile to a McDonalds to have some tea--no burgers and stuff-- and write for an hour or two, then I walk back. That two miles I find is nice maintenance. It maintains my fitness level. It's not hard to do, but I gets the blood flowing.

My diet, I added a little pasta, eggs, fruits and greens. I eat four or five times a day. Small meals. I eat until I'm just short of feeling full then I wait an hour or so. If I'm still hungry, I have some boiled broccoli or some fruit. I still eat chocolate, ice cream, and stuff, but I manage my intake. If I'm craving chocolate. I take a small handful and that's all I get for a few hours.

In a nutshell, IMHO, if you want to lose weight, or rather get healthier, you have to increase your physical activity. I think doing something physical is easier than counting your calories. You don't have to go out and do sports. I say start with walking. Try what I'm doing, find a place to walk to and write, then walk home. I find the walk helps me think about my stories and stuff.

Remember losing weight and keeping it gone isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. It's not easy to keep going. One trick I use to keep me going when I'm doing something difficult. I ask myself do I really want to do X. If I don't, then I should just go do something else, be happy and stop getting down on myself about not doing X. Part of it is really wanting to do it, and convincing yourself that it's important. One thing a professor said to me once--it was an off handed comment, but it stuck with me-- "You get what you put into it."


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## Reaver (Aug 7, 2013)

All this advice about eating right and exercising, while well intended, is pointless. People who eat healthy and exercise often die from heart attacks, cancer and everything else just as much as overweight people do. I say love yourself, people. 

F**k what everyone else thinks. Seriously, if they don't love, respect and appreciate you for the miracle that you are, then f**k the f**king f**kers.
You are all beautiful and amazing, no matter what you look like. Just think of all the forces in this universe that came together in that one miraculous moment that resulted in YOU. 

The only thing that's truly important is that you're happy. If that means exercising and all that...so be it. Age quod agis.  What makes me happy is making others happy. I've also done my utmost to live by the philosophy of a passage I read a very long time ago in The Epic of Gilgamesh: 

“What you seek you shall never find. 
For when the gods made man, 
They kept immortality to themselves.
Fill your belly.
Day and night make merry.
Let Days be full of joy.
Love the child who holds your hand.
Let your wife delight in your embrace.
For these alone are the concerns of man.”

Well, that's your pal Reaver's two cents on this topic. I'll get down off of my soapbox now.


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## Devor (Aug 7, 2013)

Reaver said:


> All this advice about eating right and exercising, while well intended, is pointless. People who eat healthy and exercise often die from heart attacks, cancer and everything else just as much as overweight people do. I say love yourself, people.



You're so opening a can of worms.  But it's true.  The effects of being overweight are smaller than commonly portrayed.

The risks of being obese - they cause problems on the "national level," but the risks for an individual are comparatively small.  Things sound worse than they are.  As a rule I don't like to look up numbers to prove a point, but for example, if something has a _5% chance_ of happening, and being obese makes it _10% more likely_, then that ten percent is applied to the 5%, giving the obese person.... _a wopping 5.5% likelihood_.

That +10% chance (or whatever it is) means a lot for our health systems, for how much we spend on healthcare, for how many beds and doctors are needed in the hospitals, for our rankings by the World Health Organization, but significantly less for the typical obese individual.

Diet and exercise can affect your energy levels, and all other aspects of your life. I found just switching breakfasts made a big difference for me, and I've been making other small changes.  And my own weight hasn't been so bad - I don't mean to overstate.

But the undertone some people in our society have that overweight people are just eating themselves to death and playing Russian roulette with their lives, or entrenching themselves in laziness, is ridiculous. People adapt to their situation. Most people have the energy to do at least whatever they're doing, and if whatever they're doing in life is enough for them, then I wish them well.




Scribble said:


> So, I teach my children to be be careful with words, not to hurt. But, whatever they say, under it all *nobody is fooled*. I would scold my child equally for being unkind to a child with Down syndrome or for being obese, but at the same time, everyone knows that it is avoidable, some *rare *genetic cases aside. In the case of the child, the fault of the parent, in the case of the adult, their own choice and responsibility.



"Nobody is fooled"?  I had to read that like six or seven times.  Nobody is trying to fool you.  Sure, obesity can avoided, with a tremendous exertion of willpower.  But willpower - the ability of a person to take control of something in their lives and turn around the status quo - is a limited resource, and most of the time we spend it elsewhere.  Like at work, or in relationships, or being kind to people we don't like - like our families (that's a joke - I love my family).  What you sound like is, _these people should want to, with all their heart, lose weight, and it should come first for everyone at all times because it's just that bad_.

It's not.

I had to read your statement like six or seven times because I really kept seeing it as "Nobody is fooled" about your show of not being mean.  Because it really does look like you and your kids are exerting that same willpower to put on a "kind show" over a disgusted face.  It would be better for you to just get over it and stop seeing people as disgusting.

Most obese and overweight people are more or less just fine.


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## Scribble (Aug 7, 2013)

Devor said:


> Most obese and overweight people are more or less just fine.



Disgust is a reaction to unhealthiness. We have natural revulsion to certain odors and visual stimuli. The evolutionary benefit is to keep us healthy, keep us away from sickness, and to ensure we mate with healthy individuals. It's not right or wrong, good or bad, it's simply biology. You can change how people act and speak publicly, but it does not necessarily change the underlying reactions to biological stimuli. You can change attitudes of acceptance, which we should, but you can't change the natural revulsion. This is political correctness. I'm not saying we shouldn't work to change how people act, I'm saying we are kidding ourselves if we can make people *feel* okay about obesity.

That is opinion. 

I respect your right to a different opinion, but I utterly reject the validity of your factual claims. The World Health Organization recognizes an obesity epidemic. If it was "no big deal", why would they? Well, there's good reasons.

Here are facts. (Source: Obesity-associated morbidity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) People *are *eating themselves to death.

*Ischemic heart disease*

Obesity is associated with cardiovascular diseases including angina and myocardial infarction.[2][3] A 2002 report concluded that *21% of ischemic heart disease is due to obesity[1] while a 2008 European consensus puts the number at 35%.[4]*

*Congestive heart failure*

Having a BMI greater than 30 *doubles one's risk of congestive heart failure*.

*High blood pressure*

More than 85% of those with hypertension have a BMI greater than 25.[6] The risk of hypertension is 5 times higher in the obese as compared to those of normal weight. A definitive link between obesity and hypertension has been found using animal and clinical studies, which have suggested that there are multiple potential mechanisms for obesity-induced hypertension. These mechanisms include the activation of the sympathetic nervous system as well as the activation of the renin–angiotensin-aldosterone system.

*Abnormal cholesterol levels*

Obesity is associated with increased LDL cholesterol (bad cholesterol) and lowered HDL cholesterol (good cholesterol).

*Deep vein thrombosis and pulmonary embolism*

Obesity increases one's risk of venous thromboembolism by 2.3 fold.


*Dermatological*

Stretch marks on the abdomen.

Obesity is associated with the incidence of stretch marks, acanthosis nigricans, lymphedema, cellulitis, hirsutism, and intertrigo.

*Diabetes*

One of the strongest links between obesity and disease is that with type 2 diabetes. These two conditions are so strongly linked that researchers in the 1970s started calling it “diabesity”.

Excess weight is behind 64% of cases of diabetes in men and 77% of cases in women.[13]

*Reproductive system*

Polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS)

Due to its association with insulin resistance, the risk of PCOS increases with adiposity. In the US approximately 60% of patients with PCOS have a BMI greater than 30.[14]


*Infertility*

Obesity leads to infertility in both men and women. This is primarily due to excess estrogen interfering with normal ovulation in women and altering spermatogenesis in men.[15] It is believed to cause 6% of primary infertility. A review in 2013 came to the result that obesity increases the risk of oligospermia and azoospermia in men, with an of odds ratio 1.3. Being morbidly obese increases the odds ratio to 2.0.

*Complications of pregnancy*

Obesity is related to many complications in preganacy including: haemorrhage, infection, increased hospital stays for the mother, and increased NICU requirements for the infant. Obese women have more than twice the rate of C-sections compared to women of normal weight. Obese women also have increased risk of preterm births

*Birth defects*

Those who are obese during pregnancy have a greater risk of have a child with a number of congenital malformations including: neural tube defects such as anencephaly and spina bifida, cardiovascular anomalies, including septal anomalies, cleft lip and palate, anorectal malformation, limb reduction anomalies, and hydrocephaly.[21]
Intrauterine fetal death

*Gastroesophageal reflux disease*

Several studies have show that the frequency and severity of GERD symptoms are higher in those who are obese.

*Fatty liver disease*

*Non-alcoholic fatty liver disease*

*Cholelithiasis (gallstones)*


*Stroke*

Ischemic stroke is increased in both men and women who are obese. For women with a BMI greater than 30, the risk of ischemic stroke increases by 1.7 fold, while men with a BMI greater than 30 had a risk of stroke 2.0 times greater.
Meralgia paresthetica

*Dementia*

Those who are obese have a rate of dementia 1.4 times greater than those of normal weight.[29]
Idiopathic intracranial hypertension


*Multiple sclerosis*

Women that are obese at age 18 have a greater than twofold increased risk of MS.

*Oncological*

Many cancers occur at increased frequency in those who are overweight or obese. A study from the United Kingdom found that approximately 5% of cancer is due to excess weight. These cancers include: breast, ovarian, esophageal, colorectal, liver, pancreatic, gallbladder, stomach, endometrial, cervical, prostate, kidney, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, multiple myeloma


*Depression*


Risk of suicide decreases with increased body mass index in the United States.

Obesity has been associated with depression. The relationship is strongest in those who are more severely obese, those who are younger, and in women. Suicide rate however decreases with increased BMI.

*Social stigmatization*

In the United States, young women who are overweight complete 0.3 year less school, are 20% less likely to get married, and make $6,710 less than their normal weight counterparts.

*Obstructive sleep apnea*

*Obesity hypoventilation syndrome*

Obesity hypoventilation syndrome is defined as the combination of obesity, hypoxia during sleep, and hypercapnia during the day, resulting from hypoventilation. Based on its definition it occurs only in the obese.

*Chronic lung disease*

Obesity is associated with a number of chronic lung diseases, including asthma and COPD. It is believed that a systemic pro-inflammatory state induced by some causes of obesity may contribute to airway inflammation, leading to asthma.

*Complications during general anaesthesia*

*Gout*

Compared to men with a BMI of 21 - 23, men with a BMI of 30 - 35 have 2.3 times more gout, and men with a BMI of greater than 35 have 3.0 times more gout. Weight loss decreases these risks.

*Poor mobility*

There is a strong association between obesity and musculoskeletal pain and disability

*Osteoarthritis*

Increased rates of arthritis are seen in both weight-bearing and non-weight-bearing joints.[6] Those with a BMI greater than 26.4 had rate of osteoarthritis of the knees 6 times greater than those with a BMI of less than 23.4, well rates of osteoarthritis in the hand was about 1.5 times greater.

*Low back pain*

Obese individuals are twice to four times more likely to have lower back pain than their normal weight peers.[44]

*Erectile dysfunction*

One third of obese men with erectile dysfunction who lose weight experience an improvement in their sexual functioning.

*Urinary incontinence*

Urge, stress, and mixed incontinence all occur at higher rates in the obese. The rates are about double that found in the normal weight population.[47] Urinary incontinence improves with weight lost.

*Chronic renal failure*

Obesity increases one's risk of renal failure by three to four times.




If I didn't give a shit about people, I'd say, hey head over to the buffet table, don't worry about it. I'd rather be harsh in words than polite and let people kill themselves. Sorry.


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## Devor (Aug 7, 2013)

Scribble said:


> I respect your right to a different opinion, but I utterly reject the validity of your factual claims.



I don't know that you understood my factual claims, if I even made any.

Find this: "What percentage of obese people die from issues related to obesity." Make sure it removes a percentage of people to account for those who were likely to die from those issues anyway.


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## Scribble (Aug 7, 2013)

> That +10% chance (or whatever it is) means a lot for our health systems...



It's people who are being killed, not numbers! The numbers come from _counting the number of people that obesity has killed_!

For 2010, the number of people who died due to heart disease in the USA 597,689.

According to 2008, they say 35% of heart disease cases were caused by obesity. 35% of 597,689 is 209,191 *people*. People who, if they were not obese would not likely have died. Not numbers, people. 

200,000 people killed by heart disease due to obesity. That doesn't include any of the other diseases I mentioned above.

WHO | Obesity and overweight



> *Overweight and obesity are linked to more deaths worldwide than underweight.* For example, 65% of the world's population live in countries where overweight and obesity kill more people than underweight (this includes all high-income and most middle-income countries).



Here's a good site for information on BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/0/21702372


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## Reaver (Aug 7, 2013)

@Scribble: How about getting your "facts" from peer reviewed (and by peer I mean physicians) publications with empirical data like the American Journal of Medicine? Not Wikipedia. ANYTHING but Wikipedia. How can anyone take any information coming from an "encyclopedia" in whiich an eight year old can contrbute seriously?


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## Reaver (Aug 7, 2013)

Ninja'd and thank you Scribble!


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## Scribble (Aug 7, 2013)

Reaver said:


> @Scribble: How about getting your "facts" from peer reviewed (and by peer I mean physicians) publications with empirical data like the American Journal of Medicine? Not Wikipedia. ANYTHING but Wikipedia. How can anyone take any information coming from an "encyclopedia" in whiich an eight year old can contrbute seriously?



Oh, convenience... I know this well, and I always feel a twinge when I do it. It's a topic that gets a lot of scrutiny, but hardly scientific controversy, so I felt okay taking it. I did click into some of the references to assure myself it was reasonably safe to quote.

I felt it was "good enough" for the purpose of this discussion. My father in law is a medical professional in the US, focused on diabetes. We've had a lot of discussions on the topic, on diet, food culture, etc... And this fits with what we've talked about over the years. Obesity is quite common in his family. Including myself, who used to be obese!

Point taken though! TouchÃ©!


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## Reaver (Aug 7, 2013)

I'm waiting for the anti-smoking thread to pop up soon. That causes more deaths worldwide than being obese.


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## Steerpike (Aug 7, 2013)




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## Reaver (Aug 7, 2013)

Classic Steerpike. You kick ass my friend.


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## Scribble (Aug 7, 2013)

Reaver said:


> I'm waiting for the anti-smoking thread to pop up soon. That causes more deaths worldwide than being obese.



Hmm... not according to some articles I've read! It seems as though obesity has passed smoking as a top killer. Worth a read.

Obesity's disease burden worse than smoking - Health - CBC News

I tend to trust CBC and BBC news. I saw some similar articles in Australian news. I searched quickly for scholarly articles, but it takes some time to sift through them. I'll put it on my stack.

The trouble with that is how people perceive the information... "Oh, well, I'll start smoking then to help me lose weight, it's more healthy!" LOL


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## C Hollis (Aug 7, 2013)

I think I'm going to climb on my motorcycle and go get me a double bacon cheeseburger and a 64 ounce Mountain Dew.  After that I'll grab me a carton of smokes, go to the bar and see how many Jack and Cokes I can pour down.  Then I'll have to catch an hour or two of shut-eye before work and eat red M&M's for breakfast.

In the end, we all die.


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## Scribble (Aug 7, 2013)

C Hollis said:


> In the end, we all die.



True.

I just want to die at 125 after riding my motorcycle back from a marathon I just ran, on my way to meet some senior senoritas at a yoga class, not at 55 on a respirator!


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## Devor (Aug 7, 2013)

Scribble said:


> It's people who are being killed, not numbers! The numbers come from _counting the number of people that obesity has killed_!



You still haven't responded to the point I was making, so I'm not sure you've understood it.

There's a difference between "what's good for society" and "what's good for me." Equating the two is called the fallacy of composition.  That obesity kills people is a different concept to someone who only considers, "will my obesity kill me?"  Being an "epidemic in society" is different from being "the primary problem in my life on which all of my willpower should be focused."

Is obesity the first of those - a massive societal problem that needs to be addressed?  Absolutely.

Is obesity the second one - a massive personal problem for an individual which demands all of that person's energy, is shameful to ignore and worthy of your disgust?  Well no, not always, and certainly you can't know the answer to that based on glancing at strangers on the street.

The world is a weird and wacky place, and it's important to recognize that other people don't need to share your opinions and your priorities when it comes to living their lives.


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## Scribble (Aug 7, 2013)

Devor said:


> You still haven't responded to the point I was making, so I'm not sure you've understood it.
> 
> There's a difference between "what's good for society" and "what's good for me." Equating the two is called the fallacy of composition.  That obesity kills people is a different concept to someone who only considers, "will my obesity kill me?"  Being an "epidemic in society" is different from being "the primary problem in my life on which all of my willpower should be focused."
> 
> ...



I appreciate that other people don't need to share my priorities, however, their choices do affect me. Rising costs of health care affect me, not indirectly, but directly - in my taxes and in the quality of health care I can expect to receive.

More than this, it affects innocent children. Unhealthy eating habits are transmitted vertically from parents to children. We imprint by the age of 4 or 5 what is safe to eat, and what is "yucky", based on what our parents feed us. We learn what are acceptable levels of physical activity in the same way. So, in fact this epidemic is also hurting my children's future because it is burdening their world with people who will need significantly more health care.

What's good for society *is* good for the individual, it's not a fallacy as I see it. There are things that people do around the world that are harmful to themselves, and their children, and it has a global impact. We aren't islands, we are all part of an interconnected society. 

Society doesn't fix problems, individuals do. Society is made up of individuals, it isn't some amorphous thing that exists apart from us, we are society. 

In the past, obesity was usually only occurring due to gluttony. Now, we live in a food culture where if you go with the flow, you will end up obese. The problem is that there isn't a switch that health organizations can make, you can't (at least today) inoculate people against over-eating. Frighteningly, the only solution to the obesity epidemic I see is 1) the education of individuals and 2) the action of those individuals to make changes in society, at their personal level.

You are right, people don't need to share priorities or opinions, and I support that, but again, we aren't alone in this boat.

On a personal level, my Dad is obese and eats terribly. He has diabetes, and has had a heart attack just recently. All of that could be avoided by changing his diet and exercising, but he is stubborn. It doesn't only affect him. When he is ill, who will manage his affairs? Who is going to have to take care of him? His parents didn't know about nutrition. He learned from them, I learned from him. All this ignorance costs dearly. I stopped the chain with me, with my children. At what cost to time? Unhappiness? Pain? And yes, money and time?. At what cost to time for my children? It's not an abstract problem.


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## Devor (Aug 7, 2013)

Scribble said:


> I appreciate that other people don't need to share my priorities, however, their choices do affect me. Rising costs of health care affect me, not indirectly, but directly - in my taxes and in the quality of health care I can expect to receive.



Sure, okay. But if it's a societal problem, address it on the societal level. What I'm saying is, let's leave the individuals alone.


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## Scribble (Aug 7, 2013)

Devor said:


> Sure, okay. But if it's a societal problem, address it on the societal level. What I'm saying is, let's leave the individuals alone.



That does not compute! Where is society? Where do we send them an email to let them know about the obesity epidemic?

Society, it's us. You, me, everyone reading this forum, our aunts, uncles, children, cousins, and co-workers - that is society. A collection of individuals.


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## Scribble (Aug 7, 2013)

From the Center for Disease control:

CDC - Obesity - Facts - Adolescent and School Health



> *Prevention*
> 
> Healthy lifestyle habits, including healthy eating and physical activity, can lower the risk of becoming obese and developing related diseases.
> 
> ...



All these preventions can only be effected by individuals working at an individual level in their spheres of influence. That's what I'm getting at.

There's hope! Obesity Rate For Poor U.S. Children Falls Significantly For The First Time | ThinkProgress

The slight drop in childhood obesity isn't due to something that some nebulous society did, it's parents feeding their children, pushing the need for exercise, school administration workers changing rules and meals, educating individuals.


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## BWFoster78 (Aug 7, 2013)

I'm late to the thread and have no desire to get in the middle of the fun debate between Scribble and Devor.  I did, however, want to share a thought.

While losing weight is easy (expend more calories than you consume), finding the willpower to make the necessary changes is anything but.  From my experience, one only loses weight when losing weight becomes important enough to overcome the bad habits (talking specifically about people who weigh too much b/c of non-medical reasons here) that led to the gain.

I've been overweight most of my life.  When I got married over 10 years ago, I went on a diet and lost 45 pounds before the wedding.  Over the next 9 years, I gained 20 of that back.  Not great, but still 25 pounds to the good.

A year ago, we got a 2 year old foster child who we're in the process of adopting.  It didn't take me long to decide that I wanted to be healthy enough to live to see him grow up.

I've lost an additional 45 pounds since then and don't doubt that I'll reach my goal of 30 more eventually.

There is absolutely no way anyone besides me could have convinced me to do what is necessary to lose the weight.  It's hard saying "no" when a coworker brings cake or donuts.  It's hard not buying junk food.  It's hard choosing not to eat something I don't particularly like because I know it's good for me.

Not sure exactly what this added to the conversation, but there it is...


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## Devor (Aug 7, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I'm late to the thread and have no desire to get in the middle of the fun debate between Scribble and Devor.



No worries there, I think I've run through it.  The next step would be to either repeat, go personal, or go political.  I'm not up for any of those.


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## Scribble (Aug 7, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I'm late to the thread and have no desire to get in the middle of the fun debate between Scribble and Devor.  I did, however, want to share a thought.
> 
> While losing weight is easy (expend more calories than you consume), finding the willpower to make the necessary changes is anything but.  From my experience, one only loses weight when losing weight becomes important enough to overcome the bad habits (talking specifically about people who weigh too much b/c of non-medical reasons here) that led to the gain.
> 
> ...



You outlined my struggle well. I had to train myself to say No. I make it automatic so I don't have a decision to make. The answer is always No thanks. 

Will power is totally useless after a certain point. You've Got a Limited Supply of Willpower, so Use It Wisely

My wife is a baker. She's always making stuff. I have to be very careful in the kitchen. If I have a few drinks, my will power suffers even more. I might find myself eating some of the stuff that is not on my diet. It's hard! Hard to say no to your family, but it's my kids that will suffer if I get sick. I need to work, they want me to be out with them. If I'm too tired to go out and play soccer with them, who is going to teach them that they need to be out playing soccer? 

I have a son who is 17. I've been fighting television and video games for 17 years. You can't just say turn it off, go outside and then sit your ass on the sofa. If you want to teach them, you've got to get up and do it yourself. You want them to eat healthy, YOU have to do it. That's not easy, I know, but health is the greatest gift you can give your children.


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## Scribble (Aug 7, 2013)

Devor said:


> No worries there, I think I've run through it.  The next step would be to either repeat, go personal, or go political.  I'm not up for any of those.



I'm of the same opinion. I enjoyed the debate, I hope you didn't take any ill of it. I tried to hold myself back, but I am a seasoned message board pit fighter in a few well-worn categories, sometimes I get hold of one end of the stick and can't let go. 

All respect to you sir. You raised some good points and I took them to heart, even if I held to my position.


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