# All things punky



## BronzeOracle (Apr 22, 2015)

Hey guys

The novel I'm writing has elements that could be called bronzepunk or togapunk.  While exploring these themes I stumbled across this article which I thought I'd share:
Make Way for Plaguepunk, Bronzepunk, and Stonepunk | Table Of Malcontents | Wired.com

My own view is that the 'punk' genre is like a retrospective SF - what would happen if in the past technology diverged and went further than it had?  And so we have all kinds of technologies that look outdated and yet are futuristic.

From this perspective I disagree with the article that the movie '300' is bronzepunk - I reckon its a fantasy take on a historical event, but its not really 'punk'.  I can't see where any technology divergence has occurred.  

What I reckon is bronzepunk is say 'Bubo' the owl in the old Clash of the Titans flick:







Although Bubo is 'made by the gods' he's clearly mechanical, like some mysterious clockwork is inside. 

Another example of bronzepunk or stonepunk could be the Olmec's flying machine and the golden condor in the cartoon series 'Cities of Gold'






These are flying machines with an ancient technology that isn't really electronic or using jet or propeller propulsion, and both are really a SF spin on ancient statues rather than modern flying craft.  

I was wondering whether its another element that makes the 'punk' genre 'punk'.  Is it a dystopian view?  Although some punk stories have this (e.g. City of Lost Children) I don't think its a defining element of the genre.  Like SF some stories are dystopian (e.g. Bladerunner) and some optimistic (e.g. Star Trek).  Likewise, Miyazaki's 'Castle in the Sky Laputa' is definitely steam/dieselpunk but it is whimsical not dystopian.

What are others' thoughts on this - what makes steampunk 'punk'?  Also, does anyone know of any cool bronzepunk or stonepunk stories?


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## Ophiucha (Apr 23, 2015)

I'd say _Xena: Warrior Princess_ (and I assume _Hercules_, though I never watched it) had episodes that toed the line of bronzepunk. The show was generally quite anachronistic. Would something like _Stargate_ count? Science fiction on planets that are culturally and aesthetically based on ancient Earth civilizations? Sometimes the tech is even suitably 'old' looking, but it's not very similar in terms of the tone or the types of anachronistic technology.


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## MineOwnKing (Apr 23, 2015)

_Punk_, has drifted over thirty years from its original meaning.

In my opinion, it has become a vague but well accepted definition for 'cool or unique sub-genre'.


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## wordwalker (Apr 23, 2015)

It's definitely drifted. "Cyberpunk" meant an urban, probably-dystopian near-future setting. By the time someone came up with "Steampunk," the actual dark side of it was mostly optional, and with steampunk it was practically abandoned; steam's too cool to be dark, right? (Ohh what a mixed metaphor!) Since then it's just a buzzword for certain "age-styles" of supertech.


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## Russ (Apr 23, 2015)

I think Steampunk started as punk when it was its earlier form like Moorcock's Nomad of the Timestream.  Now it simply seems more of a fashion trend.

I was a punk when I was young, and I thought at its core it stood for socially disruptive nihilism, or a form of urban shock socialism.

I think MOK and WW sum ups its current lack of depth and meaning quite well.


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## X Equestris (Apr 23, 2015)

I think, so far as previous times go, you could say it's anything that has much more advanced technology that its real world counterpart.


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## WooHooMan (Apr 23, 2015)

I've been thinking about doing a steampunk thing (even though I hate the genre) so I've looked into the whatever-punk meta-genre.

The way I see it, the "punk" suffix has to do with the main character's sense of independence.  
In cyberpunk, the protagonist is expected to be some hacker, crook, private detective (Bladerunner), mercenary or just some guy going against the system.  Writers just use dystopian settings to make the characters justified in going against the system.

In steampunk, the protagonist is often an innovator, adventurer, entrepreneur or just someone trying to do their own thing.  The reason why steampunk is more prone to idealistic settings is because the "system" in Victorian-inspired settings are less likely to get in the way of these types of protagonists.

Laputa counts as "punk" since the main characters are outcasts and pirates fighting against a government organization.
Mysterious Cities of Gold also counts but is a lot less overt about it.  And Laputa wasn't that overt to begin with.

Greek heroes have always been about going on adventures for personal glory so bronzepunk makes some sense on the "punk" front.  But without technology, it's not bronzepunk - it's just sword-and-sandal.

I think independence and self-reliance have been the main aspect of punk since CGBG so we haven't drifted too far from its original meaning.


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## Steerpike (Apr 23, 2015)

"Steampunk" was a word coined by K.W. Jeter to describe the stuff he and Tim Powers and James Blaylock were writing at the time. Some of it certainly had dark elements to it.


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## Gryphos (Apr 23, 2015)

I was under the impression that the original 'punk' sub-genre was cyberpunk, which was named as such due to its heavy reliance on not only advanced cybernetic technology but also dark, brooding protagonists. Think Deus Ex, Bladerunner, that kind of thing.

Then people started writing stories with advanced steam technology and stuff, and those stories were dubbed, as Steerpike says, by K. W. Jeter, as 'steampunk' in tongue-and-cheek reference to the cyberpunk sub-genre. And that started the whole wave of 'punk' sub-genres. The original meaning of the 'punk' part has long since been lost, but meh, that's just how language develops, I suppose.

Nowadays I would say the term simply denotes a sense of alternative technology of some kind. But even then, sometimes it gets a bit more complex than that. For example, while some people may disagree, I wouldn't necessarily say that in order to be classified as steampunk something must have a steam-powered setting. As steampunk is the second oldest 'punk' it's had time for its meaning to become a lot more fluid. To me, steampunk is simply a 19th century aesthetic, with technology that didn't actually exist (or wasn't popularly used) in our real world 19th century. The most commonly used example would be airships.


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## Steerpike (Apr 23, 2015)

@Gryphos:

Yes, it was after Cyberpunk had became a think that Jeter was asked, in an interview, something to the effect of what genre he and Blaylock and Powers were writing in, and he jokingly threw out "steampunk" as a term. A lot of the now-common tropes of steampunk weren't even present in some of those early works Jeter was talking about.


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