# World-conquering horde of desert nomads (evil god involved)



## Jabrosky (Dec 20, 2013)

I am in the process of re-plotting my first "magnum opus" novel, which would probably fit better in the "epic fantasy" category than any other. My main antagonists are the Yisraalim, a race of desert-dwellers whose culture mixes Biblical Israelite and Arab Bedouin elements. They start out a disorganized bunch of camel-herding nomads forever raiding one another, but then this prophet named Moshemud comes along to unite them under his leadership and embark on a campaign of world conquest. Moshemud's main weapon is a wooden staff enchanted by the evil god Elahu whom he believes should supplant all other gods in the world.

While having divine backing through his staff might give Moshemud destructive power of Biblical proportions, I am not sure if it would be enough to crush the Yisraalim's opposition without a bigger army. While the Yisraalim begin as small and scattered tribes, their desert homeland is populated by four larger and more populous civilizations. These are Elysium (based off classical Greco-Roman civilization), Babelunyans (Mesopotamia), Wagudi (medieval West Africa), and Kametu (ancient Egypt/Nubia). It is the Kametians whom Moshemud attacks first, and in fact my working protagonist is the Kametian Queen Nefrusobek.

How could a newly united horde of camel-herders from the desert pose a threat to these four empires? They may have Elahu's godly support, but I can't make him too powerful or else Nefrusobek can't beat him (unless she found another, equally powerful god on her side). I know the Mongols were able to conquer large expanses of Eurasia, but there had to be a lot more of them since they lived on a big grassy pasture rather than a desert. Or should I modify my Yisraali culture and environment so that they can field bigger armies?


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## Nagash (Dec 20, 2013)

Nefarious Gods can be sufficient to bring destruction, even upon those who seem strong. What i would suggest, is that the entire power of Elahu is only worth a damn, as long as the staff is here to channel it. Thus, as long as the prophet will live, and carry this god-touched weapon, his power will be great, and his people greater yet. However, if the staff was to be broken, all this might and magic would fade in the blink of an eye.

Its textbook antagonism : they always seem stronger than any of the legions of good, but even the most fearsome of warlords can bleed; even the greatest can fall. You just need to find the Achille's heel.


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## Jabrosky (Dec 20, 2013)

Nagash said:


> Nefarious Gods can be sufficient to bring destruction, even upon those who seem strong. What i would suggest, is that the entire power of Elahu is only worth a damn, as long as the staff is here to channel it. Thus, as long as the prophet will live, and carry this god-touched weapon, his power will be great, and his people greater yet. However, if the staff was to be broken, all this might and magic would fade in the blink of an eye.
> 
> Its textbook antagonism : they always seem stronger than any of the legions of good, but even the most fearsome of warlords can bleed; even the greatest can fall. You just need to find the Achille's heel.


So basically what Nefrusobek has to do is steal and break Moshemud's staff. I like that idea!


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## Nagash (Dec 20, 2013)

Exactly; it could be the object of an epic quest to retrieve the staff of the prophet... I really love stories where Gods interfere and meddle with mere mortals. In the end, it is a lesson to all of those who thought they were worthy of wielding the power of the mighty ones.

I'm looking forward to how you'll twist this plot


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## The Construct (Dec 20, 2013)

Perhaps the power of Moshemud's staff and the divine intervention of Elahu doesn't need to be of immense proportions that make him too powerful for the protagonists. Maybe on top of whatever powers you need/want it to have it also imbues the armies of the Yisraalim with supernatural skill and strength in combat, making even their small forces a formidable power that pose a real threat to great empires. They can achieve unnatural victory in almost any situation.


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## Jabrosky (Dec 20, 2013)

Hmm...I've decided that I want Elahu to have a fire motif, so perhaps Moshemud could use his staff to set his warriors' swords on fire or summon a shower of fireballs? That might give them advantages in combat.


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## The Construct (Dec 20, 2013)

Or you could make it less apparent than literal flames and maybe more symbolic. Like they're possessed by fire-demons in combat, giving them brutal strength and rage (and causing them to run a high fever). As if Elahu and Moshemud _lit a fire within them_.


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## Nagash (Dec 20, 2013)

_"His message, like a fire inside me, deep within my bones..."_


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## ThinkerX (Dec 20, 2013)

Two major historical parallels leap out:

Mongol Horde, which pretty much conquored Asia; and

Prophet Mohameds 'crusade' to spread Islam.  

The second, with a few historical and fantastical twitches seems to fit your concept very closely.  

Worth noting: around 1800 BC (?) a large tribe of desert nomads did conquor Egypt, and ruled the land for something on the order of a century.  Also seen fragmentary mentions of Mesopotamian city states being very concerned over nomad activity (and with justifaction, as the nomads sacked a couple of those cities).


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## wordwalker (Dec 20, 2013)

Here's another side to all of this: what are the other gods doing in all this?

It's an old question in tales like this. Do they seem to have disappeared, or start to look like myths compared to the one who's throwing his power around now-- and what really happened?

The two usual answers (often combined) are that gods want to inspire people to do their own work, or that gods avoid getting drawn into direct confrontation because that tends to flatten their favorite sandbox.

Another way might be that there's just one god (and minor angels and devils for variety, maybe) who gave mortals the staff for other reasons-- and now seems to at least not object to the prophet using it in his name.


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## Jabrosky (Dec 20, 2013)

wordwalker said:


> Here's another side to all of this: what are the other gods doing in all this?
> 
> It's an old question in tales like this. Do they seem to have disappeared, or start to look like myths compared to the one who's throwing his power around now-- and what really happened?
> 
> ...


My initial idea was that Elahu was some kind of extra-dimensional alien being descending upon an originally godless world, but that would make defeating him all the more challenging for my mortal characters unless he had really circumscribed powers.

Here's an alternative back-story: the staff Moshemud comes to possess isn't actually powered by any god, but is instead some abandoned technology from an alien civilization that died out millions of years ago. How does that sound?


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## Nagash (Dec 20, 2013)

Depends if you're willing to mix Sci-Fi'ish elements with fantasy. As a rule, i prefer to avoid such unnecessary and often disappointing combination (e.g. World of Warcraft's weird Titan/technology medley).

Outlander God however could be a good alternative, although it seems to be a detail to develop in another novel.


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## Jabrosky (Dec 20, 2013)

Nagash said:


> Outlander God however could be a good alternative, although it seems to be a detail to develop in another novel.


I guess I'll go with Outlander God then.


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## AnneL (Dec 20, 2013)

To go back to the more dangerous part, the most valuable thing in a desert is water. What if the fire-staff can dry up the water supplies of the nomads' enemies, or provide a surfeit of water to the nomads? Not sure how this works with fire motif, obviously, but if you can somehow capitalize on scarcity you can up the ante. Also, FWIW, the Book of Joshua is basically the Israelites conquering one city after another and might give you some battle ideas.


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## Malik (Dec 21, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> How could a newly united horde of camel-herders from the desert pose a threat to these four empires?



Jabrosky,

I am a desert warfare expert in the U.S. Army. I write papers, I teach classes. I'm told I'm pretty good at it. 

I just spent over an hour preparing an answer to this question, but looking at it, it seemed insanely long and intricate so the answer is now a master class on desert warfare in my blog.

The short answer is, a group of nomads wouldn't whip four empires. 

Desert dwellers rule deserts, but they historically have a horrific batting average once they get into conventional warfare. The reason for this is that desert warfare is idiosyncratic and mainly based on attrition and resource preservation. The learning curve, once a bunch of nomadic guerrillas face conventional forces on their own turf, is hideously steep and generally ends badly.

Desert civilizations tend to use the desert as a weapon. The desert is the biggest problem in desert warfare. Go figure. They wouldn't, realistically, conquer four empires. They would, however, thrive on their own once they mastered desert warfare, and after handing out a few thrashings, nobody from the outside would screw with them.


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## Queshire (Dec 21, 2013)

*cough* have you ever heard that when people read a word, they don't really read the whole word? Just so long as it's about the right size, the first letters are right and the last letters are right, the middle words don't really matter? If you have then I _might_ suggest changing the name of your big bad? It could end up offending people.

What Malik said made me think, if desert nomads suck out of the desert, then what if they bring the desert with them? If you wanna keep the fire symbolism. You could have it cause heatwaves, create sandstorms, cause drought, etc and so on.


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## Malik (Dec 21, 2013)

Queshire said:


> What Malik said made me think, if desert nomads suck out of the desert, then what if they bring the desert with them? If you wanna keep the fire symbolism. You could have it cause heatwaves, create sandstorms, cause drought, etc and so on.



That's a pretty cool idea. The problem from a plot standpoint is that historically, the main reason that desert civilizations have tried to expand their territory is to gain land that doesn't have heatwaves, sandstorms, drought, etc. 

Unless they're just being a bunch of jerks and want to screw up someone's perfectly good empire. "Hey, let's go sandstorm those guys over there!" "Yeah! We'll heat-wave 'em, too!"


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## Jabrosky (Dec 21, 2013)

Queshire said:


> *cough* have you ever heard that when people read a word, they don't really read the whole word? Just so long as it's about the right size, the first letters are right and the last letters are right, the middle words don't really matter? If you have then I _might_ suggest changing the name of your big bad? It could end up offending people.


As a matter of fact I did want to give Moshemud a Moses/Muhammad-like vibe. The whole concept owes its inspiration to the historical spread of the Abrahamic religions, especially their conflicts with indigenous belief systems.

That said, what Malik said about desert-dwellers not being well-suited to conquer large empires like I had planned was discouraging. From what he said, it sounds like they would work better as a defensive than offensive power, at least without their god's help. And then there's the question of why Elahu would pick a scrappy bunch of nomads as his army in the first place.

Hmm...maybe I should pick one of the four empires to be my Big Bad faction instead?


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## Gurkhal (Dec 21, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> As a matter of fact I did want to give Moshemud a Moses/Muhammad-like vibe. The whole concept owes its inspiration to the historical spread of the Abrahamic religions, especially their conflicts with indigenous belief systems.
> 
> That said, what Malik said about desert-dwellers not being well-suited to conquer large empires like I had planned was discouraging. From what he said, it sounds like they would work better as a defensive than offensive power, at least without their god's help. And then there's the question of why Elahu would pick a scrappy bunch of nomads as his army in the first place.
> 
> Hmm...maybe I should pick one of the four empires to be my Big Bad faction instead?



I wouldn't go that far. While desert-dwellers have a disadvantage against settled populations the records of nomads in regards to military exploits are staggering and the Arabs did in fact manage to conquer huge empires in real life so I won't put that as a very big problem.

And for the same reason remember that the Middle Assyrian Empire was close to destroyed by Aramean tribes if I recall while the Libyans and Hebrews caused hell on other places. So basically if the empire in question is plagued by internal problems or in a period of weakness, for one reason or another, then determined nomads can absolutely take it on, and win.


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## Nagash (Dec 21, 2013)

What Queshire said got me thinking, and this idea of this expanding and all-devouring desert might be a good plot-antagonism. While what Malik said made a lot of sense, I believe that those desert dwellers don't need much more than the word of their God to become the harbingers of death and havoc, sinking cities under the sands, drying lakes, rivers - seas ? - for the sole purpose of watching the world burn, and rule this arid and desolated world. Fanaticism as a matter of fact, might be a fascinating aspect of antagonism.

_"Destroy for it is the will of god; burn the world for it is what he taught us to do; sink the world under the sands so on day, we could rule it whole." _


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## Jabrosky (Dec 21, 2013)

Gurkhal said:


> So basically if the empire in question is plagued by internal problems or in a period of weakness, for one reason or another, then determined nomads can absolutely take it on, and win.


The Kametians in my world are suffering a series of droughts brought about by climate change, and there's bickering within the royal administration on how to address that. Perhaps that could bring about the period of weakness that makes them vulnerable to the Yisraali onsalught? Come to think of it, climate change might provide the Yisraalim with a motivation for conquest even without a god or magic staff to back them up.
*
EDIT:* Of course Nagash presented another neat idea the moment I was typing this.


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## SineNomine (Dec 21, 2013)

Well, the best inspiration may come from history since you're obviously using historical analogues anyway!  Look to the very earliest Muslim conquests, during Abu Bakr's control after Muhammad died.  Muhammad united the Arab tribes, but it was Abu Bakr that started the real expansion into what became the Rashidun Caliphate.  There are probably tons of great material to read, but a quick summary would be:

1 - The biggest issue was that the two massive empires that were on their doorsteps, the Byzantines and the Sassanids, only had eyes for each other.  They had been in a series of wars on and off for over a century at this point, with MASSIVE swings in the amount of land they controlled depending on the time and the war.  Not only did they underestimate anyone who wasn't the other, they were perpetually weakened by these series of wars.

2 - Their warfare was COMPLETELY different than what one side expected.  Battles between the persians and post-romans was all about the heavy cavalry charges.  Heavy cavalry was godawful against the desert tribes, who preferred light cavalry and hit and run tactics that just never gave an opportunity for the heavy cavalry to do anything but sit there looking impressive.  After a century of constantly bashing their heads into each other in the exact same way, they didn't adjust fast enough.

3 - Good leaders!  It's about as simple and direct as it gets, Khalid ibn al-Walid was a baller.  The important battles in the conquest of Persia almost universally had the arab forces being smaller and winning lots of times they shouldn't because of superior tactics.  A war is ultimately a collection of battles, and consistently winning battles that are not in your favor (but not hopeless) goes a long way to winning.

4 - Good old distractions.  Both empires were very large places with logistical problems that prevented them from projecting as much force as they wanted as fast as they wanted.  The Persians were dealing with their own rebellions and during the conquests entered a bit of a troubled time.  I think it was something like 10 kings in 4 years?  The Byzantines obviously held out unlike the persians, but lost the entire levant area.  They were STILL recovering from the Plague of Justinian and there were still much smaller plagues that struck every so often.


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## Nagash (Dec 21, 2013)

Let me tell you of a sub-story I wrote for the sole purpose of adding some mysticism in the past of my world, and which strangely reminds me of yours. That might give you some pointers about how the whole concept of fanaticism is fundamental in a pious world, especially when it comes to the crafts of war.



Spoiler: This is only for the sake of argument



_"Once, in the forgotten deserts of the current Lao-Sha, ruled one of the kingdoms of men - one of the mightiest ever created. Oh, what wonder was the temple-city of Sarnak, home to the sons of the moon and sun, with its marvels, its colossal monuments and statues so many bled for, to honor the twin gods. They had settled near the ancient oasis of Saa'ori and Saa'ahr, and extended their golden city across the desert, and deep under the sands. Under the almighty and revered King Kemsyt, they had become great craftsmen when it came to architecture and complex underground buildings. He had guided them to the path of greatness, under the severe but warm look of their Gods : Ta'Jax, the Sun-God and lord of light and day, and Kar'Nash, father of night and darkness, the Moon-God. Once, Ta'Jax and Kar'Nash were engaged in an never-ending power struggle, constantly battling each an other, to triumph, at last, over their antagonist. Yet, the mighty King had undestood that gods were to be honored equally, so balance could be installed and peace could flourish. Kemsyt had built an empire to their fame, and thus had pleased them, assuring the prosperity of his kin for the forthcoming centuries.

Yet, no glory is deemed to go through for ever, untainted. Kemsyt grew old, and soon, his son Sathra came to the age of claiming the throne his ancestors sat on. Sathra had the strength of his father and the charms of youth ; energy, skill and vigor were his best traits. When the ill king, he who had once been great, died diminished, Sathra succeed him, bearing the crown of the Nash'Atra (litt. "King under the Moon and Sun" old Sarn'ashi). Upon seeing his father enduring a slow and agonizing death, Sathra's heart grew dark, as the fear of Death grew within him. More than any other, he was thrown in the arms of constant anguish and despair, obsessing upon his impending fate. Kar'Nash saw the troubles eating away the Nash'Atra, and saw the opportunity to triumph over the Sun-God, at last.

One night, the Moon-God came to the troubled King and proposed a trade to Sathra. He would guarantee his immortality, as long as there would be stars in the night sky and a moon to pray too, if the King was to bring him the relic of Ta'Jax which had been jealously kept in the Sun-Temple, in the highest and northernmost tower of Sarnak. Only then would he make him an immortal Nash'Atra. Mad with obsession, Sathra blindly accepted the trade, and the next day, he and the followers of the Moon gathered in secret, and began plotting against Ta'Jax, and his devoted ones. Sathra promised to the keepers of Kar'Nash, immortality, as well as the sole rule of their Moon-God over the desert kingdom of Sarnak. They were pleased, for much alike their god, they craved for power and desired more than anything, the arise of the eternal moon.

When Sathra and his followers attacked the Sun-tower, most of the adepts of Ta'Jax were wiped out, unprepared and undoubting of such treachery. Some survived, and fled to the North, never to be seen again. Many more died facing the greedy sons of the Moon. The Sun-Tower was lost, and the relic stolen. It was only at the last moment, where all hope seemed lost for the guardians of the Sun, that Ta'Jax intervened, drawn to attention by the sacrilege Sathra had been committing. Seeing his children's blood tainting the very stones of his temple, he underwent a dark and hungry fury, burning to ashes those who dared lay hands upon his sons. Fleeing the sunlight, Sathra and the sons of the moon went deep into the underground complex of Sarnak, while the furious Sun-God unleashed his rage upon those left behind, and the innocent. Thus fell Sarnak, the geart kingdom of the western desert.

Sathra and his treacherous people had come back to Kar'Nash with the relic, and the Moon-God, pleased of this triumph, granted immortality to the mad King. Yet, the Nash'Atra wasn't merely as imposing as he was once, his kingdom in ruin, his might people turned to ashes, his soul forfeited...Never again could he and his followers dwell in the sun-light, for it had forsaken them. The Moon told them, that the sun could only be defeated if the Gods of the east were vanquished, and the people of Kadhash enslaved. Once again, they were charged with a great quest by the Moon-God, and once again they responded, desperate to free themselves from the curse Ta'Jax had casted upon them.

Centuries passed, and the sons of the moon, alike their Liege, changed. They had survived time, but at what cost ? Their flesh had rotten, their souls weakened, and those who once were mighty warriors and priests of the moon, were merely the ghosts and skeletons of a glorious past. Sathra, once proud and free, had grown into a slave of his obsessions and of Kar'Nash. Unwillingly, he and his people, had become mere tools of the Moon-God. He waited for the time he and his legions, would rise again, to wage ware against the Sehras and their God, to the east.

*There was little hope of victory, but one day, they will arise from the depth again, and take their chances against the empires of the east. It isn't about desiring to conquer, more than it is about pleasing their god, so he would free them, at some point, from the agony of the undying. Desperate to do by his word, and to claim back their olden glory, they won't be stopped. For it is despair, fear, and belief that drives their soul-less carcasses.*"_



To the point, faith is a crucial element of warfare in these worlds ruled by superior powers. I believe it is a key element to incorporate in your plot, and have repeatedly done so myself. The legend of Sathra - which i only put here for the sake of argument and illustrating an idea - is a motif like any other, that might drive your desert-dwellers to wage war against the entire universe.


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## Malik (Dec 21, 2013)

SineNomine said:


> Khalid ibn al-Walid was a baller.



I LOL'd. I've never heard it put that way. But yes.


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## Jabrosky (Dec 21, 2013)

SineNomine said:


> Their warfare was COMPLETELY different than what one side expected.  Battles between the persians and post-romans was all about the heavy cavalry charges.  Heavy cavalry was godawful against the desert tribes, who preferred light cavalry and hit and run tactics that just never gave an opportunity for the heavy cavalry to do anything but sit there looking impressive.  After a century of constantly bashing their heads into each other in the exact same way, they didn't adjust fast enough.


My Kametians have two major kinds of cavalry: zebra chariots and war elephants. Obviously the elephants would qualify as super-heavy cavalry, but what about the chariots? I'm guessing light cavalry since the Egyptian chariots they're based off from were designed to be lighter and more maneuverable. As for the Yisraalim, their cavalry is almost all camel-based.

There is another, more under-handed tactic I've just considered that Moshemud and his zealots could use: good old-fashioned terrorism. He could use his staff to inflict terrorist damage (e.g. destroying a sacred monument) upon the Kametians, scaring them into capitulation to his cause.


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## Gurkhal (Dec 21, 2013)

I don't think that you could qualify elephants as cavalry at all since they seem to have a very different role on the battlefield. Elephants seems more like a kind of "fire-and-forget" in that they are sent in, to my knowledge, to soften the way for the foot and horse formations in their attacks by disrupting the enemy formations.


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## Noma Galway (Dec 21, 2013)

Gurkhal said:


> Elephants seems more like a kind of "fire-and-forget" in that they are sent in, to my knowledge, to soften the way for the foot and horse formations in their attacks by disrupting the enemy formations.


I know they weren't elephants, but they were close: The Mumakil in Return of the King were the mounts of the Haradrim from the South. I count those as cavalry.


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## Amanita (Dec 21, 2013)

On a different note. Do you really think it's necessary to make this group and their beliefs completely evil from an outside point of view? It makes sense that they would be seen that way by the empires they attack of course but does it have to be "true"? Wouldn't two groups at war for reasons that seem justified to both work as well?


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## TrustMeImRudy (Dec 21, 2013)

From what I've read, elephants were more useful for the terror of these huge things lumbering at your armies and for breaking up armies quickly. They werent really cavalry cause putting them among your other troops was a bad idea, since when shot they kinda went berserk and didnt care about friend or foe.


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## Ankari (Dec 21, 2013)

SineNomine said:


> Khalid ibn al-Walid was a baller.



There is a beautiful story there. One of a man who hoped that every wound he took in the battle would be the killing blow, the one that earned him the status of a martyr, but ended up dying of old age. A story of a man so associated with success, the leaders feared the soldiers would elevate him beyond mortal. He was ordered to step down, to become a footsoldier. He accepted without complaint. A story of a man living in the shadow of his brothers, physically and  chronologically, ended on opposing sides of battle, and defeated them.

His story is always a source of inspiration.

On the subject of desert dwellers expanding, the Muslims conquered lands of people who shared the same culture and language. Those conquered people assimilated quickly. Although they shared the same culture, the lands were different and, thus, there fighting styles. Those conquered people augmented the portfolio of available strategies and kits, allowing the Muslims to be very adaptive.


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