# Elemental magic: Yea or nay?



## Nimue

Using the four elements as the basis for a system of magic has, obviously, been done many times before.  Do y'all think it's possible to inject new life into this concept, or is it all beating a dead horse?  This could be a good place to discuss elemental magic in general, but I'd like to specifically ask after the magic in the current world I'm working with.

There are five domains, rather than four, as follows: sigil of the Greenwood, sigil of the Waters, sigil of Stone, sigil of Wind, sigil of the Sun and Moon.  (Essentially, plants/forest, water, earth, air, and fire.)  Each of these domains is tapped into through enchanted instruments (wand, chalice, knife, harp, fire-striker, etc etc).  Now, the magic of these does not actually involve manipulating the element, casting about water or fire, but rather powers arranged around certain qualities.  For wood, transformation or transmutation of matter; for water, purification or harmony of spirit; for stone, protection or harmony of matter; for wind, command or transformation of spirit; for fire, destruction or transcendence.  The exact limits and powers of working in each domain is still something I'm muddling through as the story requires it, but suffice to say that to do anything really extraordinary you need to work with multiple domains and instruments and, preferably, multiple spellcasters, which is why great magic is done through gatherings of witches (and the occasional warlock.  Or druid.)

Does that description make any sense at all...?


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## Philster401

Yes it does, it's way better of an explanation than I could give of my stories  magics, which are also elemental, but I have 11 elements/kingdoms.


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## Nimue

What are the elements you're using, if you don't mind sharing?  It's interesting to me what people add, or take out.  I was always bothered (in a general way) by the lumping together of living things and rocks under earth, so the Wood/Stone split seemed fairly intuitive to me, but there's so many different ways of looking at it.


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## Philster401

Water, earth, wind, fire, light, dark, lightning, ice, forest/nature, chaos, and the last one might not be an element I haven't decided is knight/blacksmith/order. But there are also a few magics that don't fall under an element like space and time magic


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## Khama

I do like your description, and I would say that depending how you do your Elemental magic it isn't beating a dead horse. I feel there is quite that can still be done with it. Just gotta find the unique portions of the concept.

I know for me, when it comes to the actual elements, I am doing Air, Water, Earth, Fire, Metal, Lightning, Molten Lava/Rock, Sand, and Ice.


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## Saigonnus

I use something similar for my principal WIP, though like Philster, I expanded it further. Mine is like the force in many ways, coming from the different aspect of the world and of the sky above (lunar, solar etc.) and can be manipulated either using an aspect of the energy, water to slow things down, wind to speed things up etc... or straight up blast someone with a pillar of molten energy summoned up from beneath their feet. It all depends on the creativity of the mage and what energy they have to work with in a given location; the energies in a desert would be different from those found in a forest or under water.

The ones I use are: 

Air (air)
Divine (deity)
Energy (naturally occurring electromagnetism)
Lunar (moons)
Molten (underground/volcanoes/fires)
Nature (plants)
Psyche (mind)
Shadow (dark places, absence of light)
Solar (sun)
Spirit (living creatures)
Stone (rocks/ the ground)
Water (bodies of water/water in the air in humid environments)

Using this, I can tell what it would take to have a certain effect. A healing for example would use Spirit, Water and Energy. The "mage" uses their own life force for spirit (or that of the person being healed, or animal, familiar etc.) water because the body is composed mostly of water and energy, because it binds things together. Psyche might be involved too if the healer is trying to cure some mental disorder or disease. 

One "power" I use in the novel are ice missiles. (I refuse to use a fireball or lightning bolt etc.) They use energy, water and air. The "wizard" (I never use the term in my work) compresses water into tiny cube(s) and they streak toward the target. If they connect, they lodge into the skin (or deeper) and then he releases the energy, causing them to explode from the inside out. They can grievously maim someone or possibly kill them. 

There are others, but I think you may get the point. An elemental system; depending how it is set up can be very versatile and leave you wide open for creativity.


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## Logos&Eidos

For me elementalism is one of the very first ideas that I had for a magic system, I mean back beffore I even knew that world-building and magic-systems were things.

There are six elements each has an exo and esoteric components, the esoteric is more difficult to grasp.
 Every person whether the practice the art or not has  elemental affinities, rarely will a person posses more than one strong affinity. the stronger the affinity the easier an element is to use.


 Fire: properly called radiance, also known as the three brothers for fire light and lightning are all aspects of it.
It's  esoteric manifests are sublimation and purification.

Earth:  holds metal as an aspect. it's esoteric manifestations are gravity/mass controll and fortitude.

Air: it's esoteric manifestations are inertia and friction control, as well as force projection.

Water: it's esoteric manifestation is entropy control.

Wood: it's esoteric manifestation is control over life force.

Spirit/ Void:  it's esoteric manifestation are the ability to translate matter into a spiritual state, and transcend distance through the creation of portals.


 What's more the elements can be combined,  esoteric water and esoteric wood enable shape shifting.
 Esoteric-wood and Water let a mage drain the moister from their unfortunate victims body. Esoteric-wood is necessary to access a living system,from a metaphysical stand point the water in a body is a part of a system and not an separate element.


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## Tom

Nice elements, Nimue! I had an elemental magic system, but I dropped it a while ago because I couldn't find a way to make it original (as you evidently have). Now my magic is slightly controllable chaos that can do nearly anything, so long as you can imagine it.

I like the air of Celtic druidism you've given your system. It's very refreshing--a lot of people give their elemental systems a Classical feel, since it was thought up by the Greeks and expanded upon by the Romans and Medieval scholars. Your approach is really unique. I also like the qualities associated with the elements. I'd never thought of wood being connected to transformation, but now that I think about it it does make sense.

One thing--can you explain what a sigil is, and how it works?


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## ThinkerX

I flirted with elemental magic for a long, long while before giving it up in favor of what I have now - essentially amplified psionic ability with a few extra's and quirks thrown in.  Closest I have to any sort of elemental magic would be pyro-kinetics, and its pretty limited.


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## wordwalker

I do like the idea of using the elements more to symbolize kinds of power. (Literal "bending" matter itself works too, but it's done so often and it leaves out all the less tangible spells; what element is an illusion under?)

I've toyed with matching the four elements to four principles I often use in magic and writing in general:

earth= strength (power, healing, physical changes)
water= knowledge (divination, communication, illusion)
air= movement
fire= persuasion


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## Hainted

I have 8 elements in my world, but magic isn't tied to them exclusively. For me the Elements or rather Elementals can possess certain individuals and grant them an array of abilities based around that element. It's fun to try and figure out new ways to tie the elements to different effects so Fire could be used to increase the spiciness of food or Plant used to sober someone up because of the hops. For my elements I went with

Earth  Water  Air  Fire  Plant  Animal  Metal  Void


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## Nimue

Tom Nimenai said:


> I like the air of Celtic druidism you've given your system. It's very refreshing--a lot of people give their elemental systems a Classical feel, since it was thought up by the Greeks and expanded upon by the Romans and Medieval scholars. Your approach is really unique. I also like the qualities associated with the elements. I'd never thought of wood being connected to transformation, but now that I think about it it does make sense.


Celtic thought is definitely one of my inspirations.  I had thought about going with an Earth, Sea, and Sky division, which I think is now part of the ancient history of my world--at the origin of witchcraft, there might have been only three domains.  This system is influenced by human thought and craft, and not truly dependent on absolute properties, as Greek ideas would have it.  It's humans who have carved the world into five domains, created instruments that channel them, and taught witches and warlocks to cast magic this way.

The fact that the Fey have followed this division in their "kingdoms", and are ruled by Lords and Ladies of Forest, River, Mountain, Wind, and Flame, speaks to how dependent the Fey are on human magic and human passion...



Tom Nimenai said:


> One thing--can you explain what a sigil is, and how it works?


Heh, you have kind of caught me out here, because the only reason I'm using the word sigil is because I like it. xD  I generally refer to them as domains of magic, but the idea of a sigil would be used in a scholarly setting, as representation in a text, diagram, or etched onto an instrument.  A sigil represents the essence of the element, and an art might be performed "under the sigil of the Greenwood".  No, I don't have any idea what these sigils would look like, heh.  They might vary quite a bit from depiction to depiction, as they don't, themselves, have any magical properties. They're only notation.



Logos&Eidos said:


> Fire: properly called radiance, also known as the three brothers for fire light and lightning are all aspects of it.
> It's  esoteric manifests are sublimation and purification.
> 
> Earth:  holds metal as an aspect. it's esoteric manifestations are gravity/mass controll and fortitude.
> 
> Air: it's esoteric manifestations are inertia and friction control, as well as force projection.
> 
> Water: it's esoteric manifestation is entropy control.
> 
> Wood: it's esoteric manifestation is control over life force.
> 
> Spirit/ Void:  it's esoteric manifestation are the ability to translate matter into a spiritual state, and transcend distance through the creation of portals.


I like the radiance concept, and I definitely agree with the usage of wood for life.  An alternate conceptual pairing for my system I had written down was for wood, life; for water, peace; for stone, death; for wind, change; and for fire, passion.  That's still part of the arrangement, there's a lot of qualities to the domains.  Gotta love symmetry.



wordwalker said:


> I've toyed with matching the four elements to four principles I often use in magic and writing in general:
> 
> earth= strength (power, healing, physical changes)
> water= knowledge (divination, communication, illusion)
> air= movement
> fire= persuasion


I also had divination tied to water in my system, but I decided to remove specific powers from the elemental definitions for the reason that anything can be arrived at in different ways--scrying in water, yes, but also by casting stones or augury from the growth of a tree or the innards of an animal.  Perhaps using water creates a more flexible vision, while stone tells you something narrower but more certain.  I feel like tying individual powers to certain elements could work really well, though, I kind of just wanted to keep my narrative options open.


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## Tom

I knew _sigil _was a synonym for _symbol_, especially magical symbols, and I thought that was probably the angle you were going for. I like how you've taken that idea and made it your own.

I too like Celtic thought (as you've most likely figured out by now), and I filled out my magic system with some rituals and ideas from druidism. Also some Viking beliefs, such as casting rune stones to read the future. What are some practices and rituals in your magic system?


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## Nimue

I haven't put too much thought into rituals yet because, as the story begins, witchcraft is very much out of favor and the protagonist is alone and without a Circle that could perform them.  Rituals would be more common among the druids of the wildmen, but she wouldn't be familiar with them.  As with the Celts, the heavenly bodies are important, because the phase of the moon and the positions of the stars affect the strength of magic in the world (hardly original, I know).  Any rituals of witchcraft would be for specific magical purposes: protective wards, drawing life into the land, summoning the Fey, calling down curses.

At any rate, I'm glad the answer to this question seems to be "yea," it makes me feel better about hanging on to that old chestnut. ^_^


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## WooHooMan

I used the four elements but not the classic ones.  I use the modern ones: time, space, energy and matter
And then like three other types

Anyways, about your system, have you thought about the history of these schools?  At first, I assumed they were one large discipline that were divided into five classification but it seems like the five schools may have developed independently from one another.


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## Nimue

Wow, so are your elements manipulated directly?  That would result in some pretty powerful mages!  Is this in a modern setting, as well?

Not sure if you're talking about my system, but no, it's all one discipline, that of witchcraft.  It's possible for a witch to have affinities or antipathies towards different sigils, but generally they have at least a passing familiarity with all of them.  The history of the art would be interesting, though, and it's something I haven't really delved into.  The nature of instruments and what is thought possible (or moral) would definitely have changed over the centuries.


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## WooHooMan

> Wow, so are your elements manipulated directly?



Yes



> Is this in a modern setting, as well?



Not really



> Not sure if you're talking about my system, but no, it's all one discipline, that of witchcraft.  It's possible for a witch to have affinities or antipathies towards different sigils, but generally they have at least a passing familiarity with all of them.  The history of the art would be interesting, though, and it's something I haven't really delved into.  The nature of instruments and what is thought possible (or moral) would definitely have changed over the centuries.



If you don't need to look into its history, then don't.  What you got going now seems good.  As long as you know _who_ uses/used this magic, you're good.


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## Logos&Eidos

Nimue said:


> Celtic thought is definitely one of my inspirations.  I had thought about going with an Earth, Sea, and Sky division, which I think is now part of the ancient history of my world--at the origin of witchcraft, there might have been only three domains.  This system is influenced by human thought and craft, and not truly dependent on absolute properties, as Greek ideas would have it.  It's humans who have carved the world into five domains, created instruments that channel them, and taught witches and warlocks to cast magic this way.
> 
> The fact that the Fey have followed this division in their "kingdoms", and are ruled by Lords and Ladies of Forest, River, Mountain, Wind, and Flame, speaks to how dependent the Fey are on human magic and human passion...
> 
> 
> Heh, you have kind of caught me out here, because the only reason I'm using the word sigil is because I like it. xD  I generally refer to them as domains of magic, but the idea of a sigil would be used in a scholarly setting, as representation in a text, diagram, or etched onto an instrument.  A sigil represents the essence of the element, and an art might be performed "under the sigil of the Greenwood".  No, I don't have any idea what these sigils would look like, heh.  They might vary quite a bit from depiction to depiction, as they don't, themselves, have any magical properties. They're only notation.
> 
> 
> I like the radiance concept, and I definitely agree with the usage of wood for life.  An alternate conceptual pairing for my system I had written down was for wood, life; for water, peace; for stone, death; for wind, change; and for fire, passion.  That's still part of the arrangement, there's a lot of qualities to the domains.  Gotta love symmetry.
> 
> 
> I also had divination tied to water in my system, but I decided to remove specific powers from the elemental definitions for the reason that anything can be arrived at in different ways--scrying in water, yes, but also by casting stones or augury from the growth of a tree or the innards of an animal.  Perhaps using water creates a more flexible vision, while stone tells you something narrower but more certain.  I feel like tying individual powers to certain elements could work really well, though, I kind of just wanted to keep my narrative options open.



Your system is far more ritualistic than mine.  The formal name and classification the element of Fire begin Radiance is reference to real world science;heat,light and electricity are all just different frequencies of electromagnetism also called radiant energy.The only element that gives many conceptual trouble is aether/void, separating it in exoteric and esoteric in a satisfactory  manor has proven difficult.


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## Caged Maiden

I say Yea!  Because I use elementalism and don't want to be a hypocrite.  

Okay, so for me, I use element as a "sphere" of magic.  

I guess it looks something like this, though it's been so long I don't remember what my chart looks like (for the purposes of my world, my magic "influences" most elements.  As in, you can feed a fire at lower levels bu mages who can "create" true fire are very rare and elementalism itself isn't a widely studied skill.  There simply isn't any money to be made except as a court wizard or an entertainer.  Some folks still go that route, though, but finding a teacher to get past "student" level can take longer than the learning):



Elemental Magic
Student: minor tricks, a few effective talents like lighting a wick
First Tier: has thorough control over things like water flow, a bonfire's flame, can create "flame" that doesn't burn, mostly show and can stun upon impact.  Can affect wind patterns and use wind to some effect, but nothing like "flying" or in a destructive way.  Wind control is a rare skill, many mages begin with fire and stop progressing.
Second Tier: as lessons progress, mages learn about true fire (rather than light).  Also, the world's elements
Third Tier: very few mages ever reach the third tier in element sphere.  Simply, there aren't teachers and self-experimentation takes many years to produce results.  As tomes are discovered, some secrets are unlocked of the lost ancient arts of magic, allowing a few to reach this level of elemental control, which includes weather control, but who could ever find one of them to ask for tutelage?


Enchantment:
Student: a student may have a master and learn privately, or s/he may learn in a school.  Enchantment is a wider study of magic and mostly focuses on the forces of the world and how to control one's own magical energy.
First Tier: "casters" can enchant small items and do limited effects with them.  Many become charlatans on the "black market' and con people.
Second Tier: 'wizards" can perform stronger enchantments, still with limited goals.
Third Tier: "mages" can not only enchant powerful items, but their knowledge is deep, many studying the old ways and deviating from council sanctioned spells, delving into the dark arts and "blood magic" like one of my MC's grandfathers.



There are also other schools like life, that has three strengths like enchanting.  First tier may heal basic wounds and third tier may even be able to perform a resurrection, but these skills are limited to temple healers mostly and their magic is thought to come from their god directly.  A few special people have done miraculous things though, perhaps because their faith is so strong, more likely because they descend from strong wizards of antiquity whose knowledge has been lost to time.

Every positive has a negative.  Where some can heal, others can harm.  and all magic can be used for good intents or evil ones.  Magic is gray and its only personal desire that determines whether a wizard sticks with the council or goes rogue.  The council has no enforcement over those who learn in cults, from demons, or from evil humans who seek to destroy.

In short, my magic system relies heavily on element and "spheres" with very few people crossing into multiple "spheres".  A few of my more talented main characters (as the series progressed) became such and crossed into life and element or whatever.   The series began when magic was a dying art, thought inherently evil by those without it and in power.  But the series covers three hundred years and in the end, magic is more commonplace, but still relatively low power level compared to other fantasy worlds where it features prominently into the world.


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## Tantalumbismuth

I love elemental magic systems. I use one in my world. every living thing has elemental energy, Earth, Fire, Air, or Water. You're born with an element, and you use that energy to manipulate the energy of the world to do magic. there is also minor 'elements', Order, Chaos, Arcane, Divine, Life, Death, Chakra, Psionic. Which are ways you learn to channel your birth element into a specialized kind of magic.


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## WooHooMan

Tantalumbismuth said:


> there is also minor 'elements', Order, Chaos, Arcane, Divine, Life, Death, Chakra, Psionic.



Not to argue with you or anything but it seems like divine, life, death, order and chaos would all be a great deal more powerful than the four classical elements.  I mean, that stuff is control of the basic elements of reality - way bigger than just the four states of matter.
Chakra is also an interesting choice.  I assume that's like yoga, something like empathetic magic.  I got something like that in my system as well.  Cool idea.


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## Tantalumbismuth

Basically it works like this. 

You are born with Fire, earth, Water, or Air. 
The path you choose in life can give you Order, Chaos, Arcane, Divine, 
For example, a Priest could be Water, Divine, a Mage Fire, Arcane. 
Those who choose to devote years of their life to studying specific magics can gain a third element 
Life, Death, Chakra, Psionic 
Like a Monk, Air, Order, Chakra. 

The elements each have three categories that there is a point system for.. Experience is basically points, You put points in different combinations of categories to create different types of magic.


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## WooHooMan

Tantalumbismuth said:


> Basically it works like this.
> 
> You are born with Fire, earth, Water, or Air.
> The path you choose in life can give you Order, Chaos, Arcane, Divine,
> For example, a Priest could be Water, Divine, a Mage Fire, Arcane.
> Those who choose to devote years of their life to studying specific magics can gain a third element
> Life, Death, Chakra, Psionic
> Like a Monk, Air, Order, Chakra.
> 
> The elements each have three categories that there is a point system for.. Experience is basically points, You put points in different combinations of categories to create different types of magic.



Ah, I didn't get that it was an rpg thing.  Ok, I get it it.  That's pretty cool


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## Tantalumbismuth

I found this forum searching for Forum Roleplaying, World building resources, but I'm realizing it's more about solo story writing.


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## Nimue

Caged Maiden said:


> There are also other schools like life, that has three strengths like enchanting.  First tier may heal basic wounds and third tier may even be able to perform a resurrection, but these skills are limited to temple healers mostly and their magic is thought to come from their god directly.  A few special people have done miraculous things though, perhaps because their faith is so strong, more likely because they descend from strong wizards of antiquity whose knowledge has been lost to time.
> 
> Every positive has a negative.  Where some can heal, others can harm.  and all magic can be used for good intents or evil ones.  Magic is gray and its only personal desire that determines whether a wizard sticks with the council or goes rogue.  The council has no enforcement over those who learn in cults, from demons, or from evil humans who seek to destroy.


It seems like your system encompasses so many different kinds of magic?  What are all the different spheres, if you don't mind sharing?  Is it possible to do something like enchant a staff with fire magic, without the rare occasion of someone who can practice in multiple spheres?



Tantalumbismuth said:


> I love elemental magic systems. I use one in my world. every living thing has elemental energy, Earth, Fire, Air, or Water. You're born with an element, and you use that energy to manipulate the energy of the world to do magic. there is also minor 'elements', Order, Chaos, Arcane, Divine, Life, Death, Chakra, Psionic. Which are ways you learn to channel your birth element into a specialized kind of magic.


Oh, that sounds cool!  How would you describe the distinction between Divine and Chakra, say, or Arcane and Divine?  Is it that they're tied to different abilities?


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## Tantalumbismuth

Nimue said:


> Oh, that sounds cool!  How would you describe the distinction between Divine and Chakra, say, or Arcane and Divine?  Is it that they're tied to different abilities?



Magic is the manipulation of energy. And there's three main ways to proccess the energy. Natural (order and chaos) works by pulling energy from things the surround you (a water mage can pull water energy out of water in the air or our of water on the ground.) Divine casters receive energy from their gods. Arcane manipulate their own personal magic energy (their life force/soul)

Chakra is kind of like super arcane. Its complex mind, body, and soul magics. ... For instance.. You could use divine magic to ask your god to give you the power to levitate. You could be an air mage and use the winds energy create a forcefeild to levitate upon. You could be an arcane mage and use your own energy to magnatize yourself against the earth to levitate. Or,chakra, you could dedicate your self to learning the true magic behind levitation and learn to do it with more brain power then magic. So it becomes as second nature a moment as waving or skipping.


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## Caged Maiden

to clarify my magic a touch, I'd have to really look back into years of research.  I remember there's Enchanting, Element, Life, and I think I have something like beast control that elves can do, but their magic is different, based upon ritual and dealing with natural things like plants, animals, and even shadows or weather.  Anyways, for humans, the magic spheres I remember are the ones I mentioned.  Life magic is practiced by temple healers (usually women), who have been selected from the clergy to be healers because of their natural abilities.  See, in my world, anyone could learn magic, but it's the same thing as painting or playing guitar.  You have a certain amount of potential and for some folks it comes easy whereas for others, they appear hopeless.

So enchanting works two ways:

If I wanted to make an amulet that protected against magical fire spells, there is a symbol component and an energy component.  If I'm a tier one caster, I might make a relatively weak amulet because the energy component isn't as well developed as with mages who have the capacity to cast "bigger" spells.  It isn't about the spell itself, it's how much magical energy I have personally to put into it.

If I wanted to enchant a general protection spell, I might enchant a gem to absorb sunlight during the day and at night, it emits a halo of protection in a ten yard radius, that creates a ward.  I know this sounds pretty advanced, but I assure you, my magic is low level.
​  It cannot do everything.  Certain people have certain gifts, but they wear out after a few uses because they do not have infinite power sources.  Very few mages exist, and they don't spend their hard won educations enchanting useless crap for peasants to use to make their lives easier. 

For those who can work in multiple spheres (late in the series, from book seven to ten), they were sort of discovered because one woman showed signs of life magic, when she'd never been to a temple.  She was descended from a very prominent healer, though.  So that's when it became clear to a very small group of people that clerics weren't the only ones capable of healing magic (or the reverse, harming), because before her, it was thought only a god could heal people through clerics.

My enchanters have a set of skills though.  One of my main characters is descended from an enchanter but she and her brother mainly study elemental magic, because it's what they wanted to pursue.  But her grandfather taught her the basics of enchanting:  how to "see" a magical item's aura and know it's magical, how to place a ward on herself for protection against weak magical spells, and a few other things.  But her power level is low, so she can't do real elemental magic like fire that burns.  She gets into a situation where her guard walks into an ambush set for him and she raises her hands and shoots some exploding fireballs at his assailants to frighten them off.  He tells her she was a fool for casting that kind of magic (for reasons I don't want to bore you with) and she laughs it off, saying, "I can cast those silly little spells all day long.  It's just light.  It can't actually burn someone."  Well that's sort of an example of the progression.  

Elements incorporate the natural things we see, but the magic is simple.  I tried to keep it that way like physics, where I was tweaking reality, but not breaking it entirely.  One may be able to "push" something off a table, but he can't teleport it.  A mage of the highest caliber can't make it rain if there are no clouds, he must find a way to pull in clouds or manipulate the water around in a nearby source.  I try to stick with the fundamentals of Full Metal Alchemist (though I began writing this series in 2001).  You cannot make something into nothing, and you cannot make something out of nothing.

SO my magic is simple and it follows a sort of rule.  With more spiritual things, like wards or protection, I draw from modern paganism I guess.  Circles of protection, an amulet that's enchanted, or in the case of the MC mentioned above, her grandfather puts very powerful magical protection spells on her and her brother when they leave for their journey.  The glyphs are carved into their shoulders.  Blood magic like that is illegal and a serious offense, but the mage disagrees with the council's stand on the subject and does what he wants to.  Blood magic is much stronger and so feared by a council that regulates magic for everyone's safety.


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## Logos&Eidos

I've also been considering a one element system, that soul element begin Aether. It's use would then be split into a number of paths or ways, all based around the properties associated with the fifth Element, so far I've got the pathes of Destruction,Radiance,Void,Force,Spirit,Form.


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## Mythopoet

To jump into this discussion addressing the subject of elemental magic in general...

I have a love/hate relationship with elemental magic. There is something about the idea that resonates with people on a wide scale, even me. However, I find that _most_ of the time when it is implemented in a story world it feels superficial to me. Often, it just doesn't feel fully integrated into the story world. One theory I have for why that is, is that authors in this day and age tend to look at even a fantasy world from a worldview steeped in modern science. Long ago the four or five elements were a legitimate theory about what basic elements composed the world. Now that we modern educated people know better, we have difficulty realizing a world in which that remains a legitimate way to view reality. Thus the elements end up, much of the time, feeling tacked on over a world mostly viewed from a modern mindset. A very good counter example of this problem is Avatar: The Last Airbender. It's the best recent example of elemental magic used in worldbuilding that I can think of. 

I'm also skeptical about magic systems that include the traditional elements and then throw in a bunch of others that often just feel like the author was getting them off a random fantasy element generator. I mean, who else can remember Captain Planet and how silly "Heart" was? It's another area where the elements often aren't well integrated into the worldbuilding. And when this stuff is used as part of a "magic system" it often feels more or less just tacked onto the surface of the world because it sounds cool. 

I can't help having a weakness for the idea of elemental magic, but I so very seldom see it done well.


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## WooHooMan

Mythopoet said:


> To jump into this discussion addressing the subject of elemental magic in general...
> 
> I have a love/hate relationship with elemental magic. There is something about the idea that resonates with people on a wide scale, even me. However, I find that _most_ of the time when it is implemented in a story world it feels superficial to me. Often, it just doesn't feel fully integrated into the story world. One theory I have for why that is, is that authors in this day and age tend to look at even a fantasy world from a worldview steeped in modern science. Long ago the four or five elements were a legitimate theory about what basic elements composed the world. Now that we modern educated people know better, we have difficulty realizing a world in which that remains a legitimate way to view reality. Thus the elements end up, much of the time, feeling tacked on over a world mostly viewed from a modern mindset. A very good counter example of this problem is Avatar: The Last Airbender. It's the best recent example of elemental magic used in worldbuilding that I can think of.



I think the problem comes more from people approaching the four elements and magic in general as a video game mechanic.  Blame the widespread influence of rpgs on fantasy, I guess.
I think the reason why it worked on Avatar was because there was more to it then just the elements.  The creators wanted to have kung-fu.  The elements were added later to avoid the show becoming too violent.  As such, the elements were built into the martial arts and defined by Taoism-inspired philosophies.  There's more to it than just throwing fireballs and that's why it's interesting.

My big gimmick was that I went out of my way to include a modern way of looking at element magic.  Hence why instead of the four classical Greek elements, I used the modern elements of physics (time, energy and so forth) in addition to other similar elements - I don't feel like listing them.  "Magic" in this setting is treated as a fictional science/metaphysics rather than a type of mysticism or a video game mechanic.

To summarize: I don't think a modern view on elements or magic is really to blame, it's more that writers just need to get comfortable with playing around with them.


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## Nimue

Mythopoet said:


> To jump into this discussion addressing the subject of elemental magic in general...
> 
> I have a love/hate relationship with elemental magic. There is something about the idea that resonates with people on a wide scale, even me. However, I find that _most_ of the time when it is implemented in a story world it feels superficial to me. Often, it just doesn't feel fully integrated into the story world. One theory I have for why that is, is that authors in this day and age tend to look at even a fantasy world from a worldview steeped in modern science. Long ago the four or five elements were a legitimate theory about what basic elements composed the world. Now that we modern educated people know better, we have difficulty realizing a world in which that remains a legitimate way to view reality. Thus the elements end up, much of the time, feeling tacked on over a world mostly viewed from a modern mindset. A very good counter example of this problem is Avatar: The Last Airbender. It's the best recent example of elemental magic used in worldbuilding that I can think of.
> 
> I'm also skeptical about magic systems that include the traditional elements and then throw in a bunch of others that often just feel like the author was getting them off a random fantasy element generator. I mean, who else can remember Captain Planet and how silly "Heart" was? It's another area where the elements often aren't well integrated into the worldbuilding. And when this stuff is used as part of a "magic system" it often feels more or less just tacked onto the surface of the world because it sounds cool.
> 
> I can't help having a weakness for the idea of elemental magic, but I so very seldom see it done well.



This mirrors my initial thoughts on the subject, and why I was hesitant about an elemental system in the first place (but then got attached to it, as you do...).  Often it feels like elemental magic is just there because "it has to be"--just because mages need to be able to throw fire, you know?  I think this is a particular problem in amateur fantasy, because it's an ingrained, familiar concept that readers can fill in the gaps with without needing too much worldbuilding.  But when it's only given a surface treatment--all of the elements match up to the most obvious properties and effects, there are spunky red-headed fire-mages and calm healer water-mages--or when things are just tossed in willy-nilly like "Heart" or "Spirit!" it can be exceptionally grating.

I think the most obvious solution to that, though, is to spend a lot of time and try to inject original concepts seamlessly into it, to build up this system as though it is an actual belief, like the ancient elements and humours and all of that.  And maybe the modern belief system would be better divided into elements like time, matter, energy, entropy...  Certainly wouldn't fit with the setting I'm working in, though P:


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## Mythopoet

When I was a much younger writer I automatically went for the elemental magic route with the standard nature quartet and added on to it with a few (I forget how many) powers that were based on human characteristics. So the idea was to divide the elemental powers between the inanimate powers of nature and the powers of animate, sentient humanity. I actually think for someone only recently coming off of horribly derivative, Tolkien imitation writing, it wasn't that bad. lol


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## Amanita

For me it's not unlike other well-known fantasy elements (No pun intended) such as Elves. They can be used well, have been used well but if someone simply chooses to use them because of the reasons Nimue stated, it will seem shallow and leave more demanding readers dissatisfied. 
Personally, I have trouble taking additions like "spirit", "heart" etc. seriously and often things that don't work that way at all are chosen (Such as poison). Others like death or time don't work because they would overpower the mage if they could be truly controlled with disasterous results for the story.

I actually like the approach Jim Butcher has taken in Codex Alera. I didn't continue past the first book but it wasn't due to the magic which worked very well and adding metal and wood made sense and also exist in other cultures if I'm not completely wrong. A lesser known example I really like is the self-published Elemental Magic-series by Angela Wallace which I've enjoyed greatly. It's a contemporary setting where classical elemental mages work in fields such as research centres, storm warning and the like and she blends her magic and science really well. The story does have some other flaws including the author repeatedly reminding the readers that the powers have been given by God for the sake of protecting creation. Probably she's trying to reconcile being Christian and writing about magic this way. (She never calls it that either but keeps finding other terms.) Mentioning it once would do though.
She achieves a nice balance between making the powers interesting but not strong enough to endanger the plot as well though.
So it's quite possible to use it well in very different fantasy settings.
As a final note, I'm using chemical elements myself and I'd be happy if more people did because I'd love to read about it.


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## wordwalker

In defense of "spirit"...

I agree, throwing "heart" into an elemental system usually looks silly. Then again:

Many classical European systems actually did treat Spirit as a fifth "element." It made a place for the nonphysical forces, for the idea of the divine, and especially for the spellcaster himself as the person who balanced the other four elements to work magic. (Hence the pentacle, five points for five elements.)
If you don't have Spirit, you've limited your magic to something purely physical; suddenly there's no such thing as a mind-reading spell, or a way to work with ghosts. (You're also missing out on some other aspects of magic, like divination and gates. Even Healing always felt shoehorned in to me: flesh isn't the same as the Water that usually provides healing spells) If you only want "hard" magic that can blast enemies, or you aren't comfortable with all the sneakier implications of the other spells, maybe that's what you want. But consider all the possibilities first.

Then again, if you like the elements, you can also use them as a base for forming more subtle or complex spells beyond commanding the physical. (Eg fire= passion= courage or lust spells.) They make good building blocks.


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## Mythopoet

Amanita said:


> As a final note, I'm using chemical elements myself and I'd be happy if more people did because I'd love to read about it.



That's awesome! I'm way too much of a dunce when it comes to science to do something like that. But I was just wondering the other day whether there was anyone out there who would try to do the elements as we now understand them in elemental magic.


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## Nimue

Amanita said:


> As a final note, I'm using chemical elements myself and I'd be happy if more people did because I'd love to read about it.


Wow, how does that work??  Can they create the elements or only manipulate them?  If the former, I'd say stay the hell away from anyone who can control Uranium and Plutonium...



wordwalker said:


> In defense of "spirit"...
> 
> I agree, throwing "heart" into an elemental system usually looks silly. Then again:
> 
> Many classical European systems actually did treat Spirit as a fifth "element." It made a place for the nonphysical forces, for the idea of the divine, and especially for the spellcaster himself as the person who balanced the other four elements to work magic. (Hence the pentacle, five points for five elements.)
> If you don't have Spirit, you've limited your magic to something purely physical; suddenly there's no such thing as a mind-reading spell, or a way to work with ghosts. (You're also missing out on some other aspects of magic, like divination and gates. Even Healing always felt shoehorned in to me: flesh isn't the same as the Water that usually provides healing spells) If you only want "hard" magic that can blast enemies, or you aren't comfortable with all the sneakier implications of the other spells, maybe that's what you want. But consider all the possibilities first.


Thanks for reminding me about that!  It was sometimes called ether or aether, right?  The second part is why I don't really like "straight" elemental systems, because if it's really just fire and water and such you're limiting magic drastically.  That's pretty much the reason why my magic system isn't just about manipulating fire, it's about using the essence of fire and light to achieve other things through instruments like candles and firestrikers.  Something does have to be added, or reasonable extrapolations have to be made.  The only really good "straight" elemental magic system I can think of is Avatar tLA, and even then they added powers and really played with the ideas sometimes.


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## WooHooMan

I'm going to do a devil's advocate-y thing and argue that "aether" is a terrible fifth element and "heart" is a good one.

First off, using aether as a fifth element is unoriginal.  It's the most common "fifth" element you're likely to find.  Usually, aether seems to be used as an alternate name to a vital essence.   But why would you call it "aether" of all things.

"Heart" makes more sense as an element.  Captain Planet is the only time that I can think of when "heart" was used as an element so I'm talking about that cartoon's interpretation of "heart".  If you define element as "the things that nature is composed of", shouldn't you acknowledge plant and animal life?  If I remember correctly, the cartoon had multiple episodes where they said that "heart" was the most important element.  Who would care about "nature" if it didn't include life.
I think people get thrown-off by the element being called "heart" but really it's a fine name.  The heart is the organ associated with sustaining life plus its association with love can give the user empathetic powers.

Overall - and on a slightly unrelated note - I don't think elemental magic is anymore cliche than most other forms of fictional magic since most fictional magic systems take after the Aleister Crowley-type occultism with spells, runes, incantations, grimoires and so forth.  I guess you could argue that's a more realistic take on magic...but why would you want a "realistic" magic system.



Amanita said:


> I'm using chemical elements myself and I'd be happy if more people did because I'd love to read about it.



I'm using physics.  That's close enough.


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## Mythopoet

wordwalker said:


> [*]Many classical European systems actually did treat Spirit as a fifth "element." It made a place for the nonphysical forces, for the idea of the divine, and especially for the spellcaster himself as the person who balanced the other four elements to work magic. (Hence the pentacle, five points for five elements.)



This is not true. Aether was theorized by the Greek philosophers to be a type of matter which filled the region of the celestial bodies and which caused the stars to turn across the sky. 



WooHooMan said:


> I'm going to do a devil's advocate-y thing and argue that "aether" is a terrible fifth element and "heart" is a good one.
> 
> First off, using aether as a fifth element is unoriginal.  It's the most common "fifth" element you're likely to find.  Also, "aether" is just a different kind of air.



This is not really true either. True that Plato mentions aether as a kind of air. However, it wasn't Plato that made aether one of the classical elements. That was Aristotle and Aristotle viewed aether differently than Plato. He did not think of it as just a type of air, but as a different type of matter than any other terrestrial matter.


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## WooHooMan

Mythopoet said:


> This is not really true either. True that Plato mentions aether as a kind of air. However, it wasn't Plato that made aether one of the classical elements. That was Aristotle and Aristotle viewed aether differently than Plato. He did not think of it as just a type of air, but as a different type of matter than any other terrestrial matter.



Ok, I edited my post.
Also, I don't think any magic system is likely to use Aristotle's definition of aether.  The word has a new meaning in the context of an elemental magic system.


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## Mindfire

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the oriental 5-element system that has water, earth, fire, wood, and metal, but leaves out air for reasons that have always been unclear to me.


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## Mythopoet

WooHooMan said:


> Ok, I edited my post.
> Also, I don't think any magic system is likely to use Aristotle's definition of aether.  The word has a new meaning in the context of an elemental magic system.



Really? What exactly is that new definition and where does it come from?


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## WooHooMan

Mindfire said:


> I'm surprised no one has mentioned the oriental 5-element system that has water, earth, fire, wood, and metal, but leaves out air for reasons that have always been unclear to me.


Some people consider air and water to be the same element.  Hence why the band was called "Earth, Wind and Fire".
I'll go ahead and point-out that at some points air, wind, sky, fresh water and salt water are considered separate elements.  And then metal and earth being separate.  It's weird.



Mythopoet said:


> Really? What exactly is that new definition and where does it come from?



I'm saying people who use aether rarely stick to Aristotle's definition exactly.


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## Mythopoet

WooHooMan said:


> I'm saying people who use aether rarely stick to Aristotle's definition exactly.



Well, obviously. That doesn't change the roots of the thing though. 

And I'm inclined to believe that the further one ventures from the classical view of the elements when using elemental magic the more likely it is to feel like it's been pulled out of the author's rear parts. The whole idea of the classical elements is that they are the elements that make up the physical world. The idea of elemental magic is that it allows you to manipulate the physical elements. The farther you stray from that formula the harder you'll have to work to justify it. That's my opinion, anyway.


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## Queshire

So I've recently had reason to revive a concept that included elementalism, though it's not considered magic, but the work of spirits and religion. The religion is meant to be pretty simplistic and almost video game-esque, 



Spoiler: Explanation of Elementalism in my story. Spoilered 'cause it's long and meandering.



At the top of the heap is the Holy Light, an impersonal guiding force embodying purity, order, and the refinement of the self.

Serving the Holy Light are the Four Great Elemental Kings (fire, water, earth and air) and below them are the lesser Elemental Kings (other elements like lightning or ice)

Non-elemental gods like gods of war or harvest are considered to have positions similar to Knights or so in the Elemental Kings' courts; honorable but you can't really compare a king to a knight.

Opposite of the Holy Light is the Darkness which embodies chaos, madness, and strife.

The darkness doesn't have Great Elemental Kings, though it has lesser ones attributed to it as well as gods (though the Darkness' gods are generally considered demons.) The gods attributed to the Darkness tend to be ones governing things that are generally considered evil, but curiously the Elemental Kings of the Darkness tend to be the more abstract ones like space or time.

The gods tend to be single, unique individuals, but there's a huge amount of spirits for each element from basically the spirit equivalent to bacteria, to the spirit equivalent of pokemon, up to Final Fantasy summons level, and when you get into Spirit King turf it reaches Fantastic Nuke level.

Anyone can use the smallest elemental spirits to do stuff. All it takes is some sort of ritual form of communication, most commonly incantations or runes, to tell them what to do and a small sacrifice as payment to get them to do something, however they're pretty limited in what they can do. Just household conveniences and stuff like that.

It generally takes specialized training in order to be able to negotiate with stronger spirits and convince them to do what you want. Such shaman-priests generally also make long term contracts with one or two more powerful elemental for more reliable powers. Such powers include being able to manipulate the spirit's elements, having the spirit as a familiar (pokemon basically), having the spirit as a guardian (think less pokemon and more bodyguard), serving as an avatar for the spirit, or summoning the spirit like a final fantasy summon. They can do the same things with Gods, but they tend to be more specialized than a spirit.

Now, a lot of all that stuff is based off the religion and they got a lot of stuff wrong.

Neither the Holy Light or the Darkness are inherently good or evil. Actually, pretty much all of the gods and spirits are neutral. They're just guided by their nature.

The Light and Darkness are just forces, opposite but not necessarily opposing. Unlike the elements they don't even really have spirits to give them personality. Where the two differ is in how they go about doing stuff. I got the idea for this from a webcomic I read once which based light & darkness off of how white and black work as a color. White reflects all the other colors. Similarly light augmented magic focuses on refining something into the ideal version of itself. Black is a mixture of all the colors. So darkness magic augments spells by mixing them together with the elements in the area or stealing some of the enemies power. As an example a Light mage would get stronger by intensive training while a Dark mage would get more powerful by beating up monsters and stealing a bit of their power in what basically amounts to experience points.

None of the Elementals are good or evil. They're just ruled by their nature. Also the Four Great Elemental Kings aren't actually any more powerful than any of the other Elemental kings. People just think they are. The reason the more abstract elementals tend to be associated with Darkness is because messing around with those elements. The gods are just gods.



What people in the setting call magic is explicitly not elemental in nature. It's basically using advanced knowledge and a strong will to hack reality. They're basically doing manually what spirits can do instinctively.


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## Amanita

The idea of a fifth element does exist in western thought but I still don't really like the "spirit" or "heart" ideas. It wouldn't make me put a book done or refuse to buy it if done well but it's one of the things I think are harder to do well then some others.
In my opinion, elemental magic that doesn't include mind-reading. healing and the like doesn't have to be a problem. There's no need for every fantasy story to include every possible form of magic. We keep talking about the necessity of limits and I think it's quite elegant if those are in the nature of the magic rather than lines drawn by the author because he thinks limits are needed. A fire mage can't raise the dead because it's not part of his magic, period. 
The four elements could be given a mental aspect as well and I think that's acutally been done in Ancient Greek thinking to some extent but I'm not an expert at this. 
I've chosen this option, my magic has a mental component linked to the bonding between the elements. There are also some healing abilities linked to the properties of the element. Most of these require a group of magic users though. To answer one of the questions, they can't create the element but summon it. It's quite demanding though and only the most powerful ones can do it over longer distances. Those who have their element nearby are at a distinct advantage which adds to oxygen mages being somewhat overpowered...
The fact that their users are relatively equal if different is definitely an argument in favour of the classical elements.


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## Logos&Eidos

Elementalism was the first idea that occurred to me about the how's and why's of a magic system. I'm talking back when i was single digits, in the stories that I'd make up all the people would have elemental powers. It's also the only way for me to balance one of my magic systems. 

I have three magic systems, a divine magic which revolved around getting onto a given god's frequency, and a path of self perfecting which is inspired by a lot of wuxia and manga/anime;it's basically way to let people train themselves into begin effectively superhuman.  Sorcery, that was a difficult beast it was always to powerful and to abstract to feel properly balanced in my mind. With elementalism i was able to balance the system, the elements fire,air,earth,water,wood and void, took all the power of sorcery and neatly divided it into six manageable chunks.


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## Creed

This thread's been quite interesting so far, and I feel compelled to add on to it. 
So while we're sharing...
I use an Elemental system, and the reason I like it is because it's ingrained into a greater system quite fluidly. My Universe has two "fundaments" called Order and Chaos (sound familiar?) and the few races I have fit onto a gradient of these two forces, and there are four types of magic based on how aligned one is to Chaos. Humans are slightly attuned to Order, which makes mages who manipulate the Pure Magic (unaspected, Chaotic energy) quite rare. This makes Pathmages very valuable in courts. So humans are more capable of accessing magic in the form of what some theorists in my Universe believe to be metaphors, by which a lens of Order has been applied to the Chaos of energy.
These metaphors come in the forms of the Elements, and are believed to represent the emotions of the Universe.
It's there that Elemental magic moves to the practical realm. Mages have the Element within them, inaccurately compared to a parasite. The main difference here is how emotion plays a role in Elemental magic: each Element acts as its own separate entity, and has a duality or trinity or whatever of emotional states (warmth vs inferno for Fryth, stillness vs blizzard for Leht, etc.) and these emotional states affect a mage and the efficacy of that mage's control. Harmonisation is the process by which a mage and his/her Element reach a single emotional state, gaining a terrific efficiency over their Element, but sacrificing emotional control for it (which brings its own dangers).
I don't stick with the four classical Elements, and I don't use any model to determine how many Elements there are. The reason that Leht (ice) is separate from Zhyr (water) is that the two Elements have different emotional states, and behave in entirely different ways. Same reason I have a metal Element (Orem), because it is characteristically unique to the others. It also explains why I do not have a "Spirit" or "Heart" Element- I can't just tack things on. I used to have an Element called Zorath (soul) but it didn't make any sense in the larger picture. There are obviously many different ideas about life in my Universe, but the most commonly accepted one among magical theorists is that there is a "spark" of energy inside of us that is responsible for life.
Domination magic complicates things in this model, as only the Elements Shayshan (sound) and Mayena (blood) can alter a mental state, and at that quite crudely. The Pure Magic, which is attributed the "spark," as it's just energy, is quite inept at domination magic.
I don't know how original it is, I'm not well-read enough to make a statement on that. But it's not something I've really seen, and more importantly it makes sense with my other magic systems and the fundamental forces of my Universe. And even more importantly I quite enjoy writing with it! I may write a little something something with it right now!
I'm feeling Leht... and something action-packed! }


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## Nimue

I like the element names, they're very evocative!  So, the elements are Chaos through a lens of Order, and pure energy is a different kind of magic, which is just Chaos? What are the four kinds of magic? Sounds like there's a lot going on, but I see you have a grasp on it. ^^


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## Creed

Nimue said:


> I like the element names, they're very evocative!  So, the elements are Chaos through a lens of Order, and pure energy is a different kind of magic, which is just Chaos? What are the four kinds of magic? Sounds like there's a lot going on, but I see you have a grasp on it. ^^



Thank you!  I try to make the names match the Elements and their emotional dualities as best I can.
You're quite correct. Chaos is the realm of energy, motion, change, creation, and destruction. Order is the realm of control and limitation. Pure Magic is aligned to Chaos, and allows for portals and wards and such.
The last two types of magic are the Tongue and Blood of Chaos, and can only be accessed by races aligned heavily with Chaos.
The Tongue of Chaos is an evocation of the Blood that essentially allows the user to temporarily alter the Laws and Natures of reality, which are spawned from the battle of the Fundaments (Chaos brought motion to the Universe, Order imposed control, ergo the Law of Gravity). So this is where the physics aspect of magic that was mentioned before comes into my system: no more metaphors, beyond the manipulation of energy, and to the limitations that control it.
The Cred'an were an Elder race capable of the Tongue, but attuned invariably to Creation. Their use would be to create new Laws or tack on limitations/stipulations to a Law or Nature to achieve the desired effect. These include abstract Natures like "distance" allowing for portals. The Orthic were attuned to Destruction, and could only break parts of the code of Laws and Natures, and would instead rely on a technique akin to instantaneously destroying all distance from point A and B to teleport there.
The Blood of Chaos is, essentially, the direct control over Chaos. It comprises of the spilling of Chaos' blood and the command of it to alter reality, make true the false, rewrite the code, etc. It's only accessible by the First, beings who pulled themselves into creation from the body of Chaos itself and sacrificed their Blood to kickstart the Universe, and to a lesser extent Godlings, who pulled themselves out shortly thereafter. The power the First wield is quite strong. Though they remain asleep in Chaos for most of my planned writing in my Universe, their magic can do stuff like shatter stars and manipulate the flow of time.
Though only if they _really, really_ want to.
Hope that wasn't too wordy/long/complicated!


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## WooHooMan

So, in my elemental magic system, there used to be air/water/fire/earth but it's changed.  In the same way science and philosophy evolves over time, so too did magic.  There are currently eight forms of magic...

*Energy* magic, called the Radiant Union, evolved from fire magic.  The idea is that a person could manipulate things like heat and light through careful movements of their body.  It's kind of like a martial arts system.  If you want to shoot a fireball, you move so to create a burst of heat.  Reverse the movement and you create a burst of coldness, shooting ice.

*Matter* magic, called Alchemy, evolved from earth magic.  It's basically just standard fictional alchemy: manipulation of matter through processes and formulas.

*Flesh* magic, called Pliantform, evolved from water magic.  It's just shape-shifting.  Pretty simple.

*Air* magic is the only form of "pure" elemental magic that is still around.  It's called Windrunning.  Windrunners are able to do things like turn invisible, fly, pass through solid objects and so forth.  Basically, they turn themselves into air.  

*Space* magic is called the Way of the Open.  It's used for things like teleporting and creating portals.  Basically, you bend space around yourself through thought, words and movement.  It was initially developed as a sub-form of Air magic that combined Air magic aspects of Energy magic.  Eventually, it developed into its own system.

*Time* magic is called Axial Logic.  The idea is that the fabric of time can be altered by those who understand it.  Through thought alone, the Axial Logician is able to manipulate the flow of time.

*Meaning* magic, called Shift-speaking, is the most powerful form of magic.  It's the power of argument - with this magic, you can win _any_ argument.  If you don't like gravity, you just argue that gravity doesn't exist and then gravity stops existing.  If you don't like a person, you just argue that they don't exist and they'll disappear.  You argue against reality itself and you always win.

And finally, *Thought* magic, called Dreamweaving, asserts that reality is an illusion and through enlightenment, you could take control of the illusion.  The goal of this school of magic is enlightenment and transcendence.  It's kind of like a passive counterpart to Shift-speaking.

Magic in general is pretty uncommon.  
There are a (relatively) decent amount of Air, Matter and Energy mages.  
Space and Thought mages are pretty rare and there's only a handful of Time mages.  
Flesh mages are basically gone.  
There's only one Meaning mage but one is more than enough.


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## Vendzzz

I do it as elemental magic is like bending from the avatar series and light and dark magic are more classic magics.


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## Akira444

My magic system is based off the magic system from Witchlands and Magic: The Gathering. In my world, magic is the manipulation of the elements. It is a practice that can be learned, but whether or not a person is good at it depends on their skill, training, and talent; kind of like music and art in a way. There are seven elements: five "physical" elements-fire, water, earth, air, and lightning-and two "abstract" elements-light and dark. Every person has an affinity towards one of the seven elements, and a mage's powers and abilities vary depending on what element they have.
 Each element has its own set of powers and abilities related to it. For example, fire magic has spells that deal with transformation, warmth, rage, passion and affection. Light magic deals with illusions, psychic abilities and communication with spirits. Dark magic (manipulation of darkness) deals with space, gravity, curses, and summoning.


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## C. R. Rowenson

Personally, I don't think elemental magic is overdone and I'm not sure it can be. There are lots of people out there looking for more of what they already love, so if you use the _exact same system _as Avatar the Last Airbender but deliver it in a new and compelling story, thousands of people will happily devour it. 
As for your system, I think you bypassed a lot of the common tropes and cliches by making the elements symbolic of different effects rather than it being tied to the control of the elements themselves.  For example, wind might not let you fly but you could use it to perform rudimentary mind control, forcing people to follow simple commands.
Anyway. I really like what you have so far.


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## Akira444

Nimue said:


> Using the four elements as the basis for a system of magic has, obviously, been done many times before.  Do y'all think it's possible to inject new life into this concept, or is it all beating a dead horse?  This could be a good place to discuss elemental magic in general, but I'd like to specifically ask after the magic in the current world I'm working with.
> 
> There are five domains, rather than four, as follows: sigil of the Greenwood, sigil of the Waters, sigil of Stone, sigil of Wind, sigil of the Sun and Moon.  (Essentially, plants/forest, water, earth, air, and fire.)  Each of these domains is tapped into through enchanted instruments (wand, chalice, knife, harp, fire-striker, etc etc).  Now, the magic of these does not actually involve manipulating the element, casting about water or fire, but rather powers arranged around certain qualities.  For wood, transformation or transmutation of matter; for water, purification or harmony of spirit; for stone, protection or harmony of matter; for wind, command or transformation of spirit; for fire, destruction or transcendence.  The exact limits and powers of working in each domain is still something I'm muddling through as the story requires it, but suffice to say that to do anything really extraordinary you need to work with multiple domains and instruments and, preferably, multiple spellcasters, which is why great magic is done through gatherings of witches (and the occasional warlock.  Or druid.)
> 
> Does that description make any sense at all...?


Do you have an idea of how you want individual spells to look like for each element?


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