# Ask Me About Horses



## ArielFingolfin

Ok, well I'm new here, so I have no idea if there was already a thread for this, but I skimmed through and couldn't see one, so I figured I'd post. I have a pretty extensive knowledge of horses as I've been working with them for about 12 years, and I've done a lot of reading on the subject, both for college classes and for pleasure, so if you have any questions, ask away! Or if there's someone who already does this, and I'm stepping on toes, holler at me, and I'll scuttle back under my rock


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## Sheilawisz

Hello ArielFingolfin, and welcome to Mythic Scribes!!

I have a question about horses that may seem a little strange, but I am really curious about this: What is the total height that a large horse can reach when they stand on their hind legs?? I mean, how high above the ground would be the highest part of the horse's head while standing like that??

Let's say, a 2000 pounds Percheron horse.


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## ArielFingolfin

Well, your average Percheron is anywhere from 16 hands at the whithers (where the neck connects to the body), which is 5 and a half feet to 18 hands or a little over 6 feet, but that's standing flat. Rearing you should probably add two or three feet since horses are roughly as long in the barrel as they are in the legs, and draft horses tend to have shorter legs and larger shoulders. They can go almost completely vertical in a rear, though a Percheron would have a little more trouble with that because of the heavier body than a lighter breed, say a Thoroughbred or an Arab. But I'd say 7 to 9 feet at the withers, and then add a few more feet for the neck, which normally wouldn't be completely upright unless it were fighting a larger horse and could balance off the other horse instead of the its neck. However, they bend their hind legs when they rear for balance, which also takes away from the height (this is starting to sound like a super obnoxious SAT math question  ) But all in all I'd say 8 to 10 feet at the top of the head as a rough estimate and based on what I've seen.

You mentioned a Percheron, but as I said a Percheron is a draft horse, so it's heavy in the body, which makes it harder for the horse to get vertical. However warmbloods (horses with draft and sport horse blood) can be just as tall and could most likely get higher since they're more athletic. I know a few horses that I'd say could even possibly hit 11 or 12 feet.

Thanks for the welcome, by the way!


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## Caged Maiden

Welcome.  I love horses too, but in a less practical way.  I rode many years ago in high school, but haven't since.  If I move back to the midwest, I'm getting a draft horse.  I just love them.  So since I always wanted to make a full set of horse barding, but don't have one, I decided to do it for my dog... I don't think he's as impressed with my awesomeness as I am.  

Okay my own silliness aside, welcome to MS.  This is a great bunch of people, and I hope you find what you're looking for here.


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## Sheilawisz

Thank you, Ariel!! I was really curious, and to know that some horses can rear to reach eleven or twelve feet is just the kind of information that I needed. I also love horses, so beautiful and fascinating creatures, and I am sure that you will get many more questions about them because we use horses a lot in our Fantasy stories =)

One more question: What would be the approximate weight of a horse that could easily rear to reach a height of twelve feet??


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## SeverinR

anihow said:


> Welcome.  I love horses too, but in a less practical way.  I rode many years ago in high school, but haven't since.  If I move back to the midwest, I'm getting a draft horse.  I just love them.  So since I always wanted to make a full set of horse barding, but don't have one, I decided to do it for my dog... I don't think he's as impressed with my awesomeness as I am.
> 
> Okay my own silliness aside, welcome to MS.  This is a great bunch of people, and I hope you find what you're looking for here.


horse with barding?
Ceremonial barding, but impressive.
Welcome to Starry Knight Friesians

Dog in armor?
Dog in armor - Bing Images

My puppy knows I am up to something, she won't let me work on my chain maille. I want a simple 4 in1 like this:
Dog in armor - Bing Images


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## ArielFingolfin

That dog is so cute all decked out like a warrior. I always wanted to learn jousting, but there's not really a place around here.Too bad really, because I think it would be pertty awesome.


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## SeverinR

ArielFingolfin said:


> That dog is so cute all decked out like a warrior. I always wanted to learn jousting, but there's not really a place around here.Too bad really, because I think it would be pertty awesome.



I am a former SCA equestrian, there is a group in MAINE, Shire of Endewearde, Society for Creative Anachronism
Jousting is only one game to play with a horse.  I was not experienced enough to try jousting, but they have recently allowed jousting in the SCA.
How about riding "poles" bashing heads (with a foam covered hammer) as you go? Throwing a spear at a target while galloping by? My favorite, has to be the Quintain, no better feeling then hitting the target on a charging steed.
Severin Rheinfelser, Flaming Griffon Baronial Champion.


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## BWFoster78

Ariel,

Thanks a bunch for starting this thread.  I have all kinds of questions about horses.

1. I need for my intrepid heroes to get a bunch of horses to go into a cave.  To make matters worse, there's the smell of a bear in the huge cavern and the way is lit by magically controlled fires.  How difficult is it going to be to make them go in?  The lead horse is a well trained war horse.  The others tend to follow it.

2. I need to add some tension by having one of the horses pull up lame.  I need a condition, with a description, that will prevent the horse from carrying a rider, but I want him to be able to recover after a few days of rest.  Got anything for me?  Also, my assumption is that it will slow another horse down if they have to ride double.  Sound legit?

3. I need to show that some horses are "well bred."  These are mounts used by soldiers.  Any descriptive terms you could toss my way to add a little flavor?

Thanks again if you're able to give me any assistance.


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## ascanius

I grew up around horses, ranching an what not.  I can trim hooves, basic first aid, and work them until they foam but sadly never knew how to describe them.  Like I know hands are used to measure them but what's the conversion factor, or types of coat color, etc.


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## SeverinR

BWFoster78 said:


> Ariel,
> 
> Thanks a bunch for starting this thread.  I have all kinds of questions about horses.
> 
> 1. I need for my intrepid heroes to get a bunch of horses to go into a cave.  To make matters worse, there's the smell of a bear in the huge cavern and the way is lit by magically controlled fires.  How difficult is it going to be to make them go in?  The lead horse is a well trained war horse.  The others tend to follow it.
> 
> 2. I need to add some tension by having one of the horses pull up lame.  I need a condition, with a description, that will prevent the horse from carrying a rider, but I want him to be able to recover after a few days of rest.  Got anything for me?  Also, my assumption is that it will slow another horse down if they have to ride double.  Sound legit?
> 
> 3. I need to show that some horses are "well bred."  These are mounts used by soldiers.  Any descriptive terms you could toss my way to add a little flavor?
> 
> Thanks again if you're able to give me any assistance.


I will offer my experiences;

1. Cave; it would depend on how well lit, how much room for the horse to manuver.  The bear smell could make it impossible to go in the cave. Fire-if the horse doens't have to get to close to fire, and it isn't extremely large fire, it probably won't matter. Horses will tend to follow another horse if they trust the lead horse, but  I am not sure they will follow the leader into a dangerous smelling cave. (I have riden a green broke horse into a very large opened cave with ten other horses.)
If one panics, the rest are very likely to follow.

2. My green broke horse punctured the frog several times after moving him and his brother to our property. We figured out there was a row of fence that had fell down and partially covered, with several wires and broken T-posts.  He was lame about 4 days requiring epsion salt soaks. Very pronouned limp, and it would be abusive to try to ride a horse with that much of a limp. Riding double and the injured horse limping behind would slow a healthy horse down. Possibly walking to far could make it worse.
frog on horse - Bing Images
3. I can't help with the describing good horse stock.


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## BWFoster78

Severin,

Thanks for the information.  It helps.

Brian


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## ArielFingolfin

BWFoster78 said:


> 1. I need for my intrepid heroes to get a bunch of horses to go into a cave.  To make matters worse, there's the smell of a bear in the huge cavern and the way is lit by magically controlled fires.  How difficult is it going to be to make them go in?  The lead horse is a well trained war horse.  The others tend to follow it.



Oh wow, that would be difficult. At least your cave is big; the bigger the better so that the horses won't feel trapped. Fire's not too big of a deal for horses in a medieval time as long as they're not extremely huge; they'd be used to camp fires and also anytime they go to a backsmith there's a hot fire there. They might be nervous about walking in between columns of fire though. I'm not sure how big or close the fires are. Your heroes could rig some blinders which would help the horses walk between the fires. They would still be able to smell them, but since they wouldn't be able to see them it would help. 

If it's just the scent of bear that shouldn't matter too much. I've seen bears while trial riding, and once it was the first time I'd taken the horse out on the trails. He smelled it and stopped, and I wasn't sure why, but I nudged him forward. He went and then a cub skittered across the path about fifty yards ahead, and he wasn't too scared. Of course there was another horse there who was in the lead, so he felt safer than if he'd been on his own. War horses are trained to go into unfamiliar situations, and you hit the nail on the head that horses will often follow each other even if they're not sure about where they're going. I would say have a rapport built between the horses and their riders, especially the one you said is the lead horse. You would be amazed at what horses can be trained to tolerate. 

So yeah, I'd say blinders for walking between the fires, keep the horses together, and have the heroes be talking to them the whole time. Depending on how much space you have let the horse walk by the enterance a few times before asking him to go in. If he wants to, let him stop and sniff. If you don't rush them and let them check things out by themselves at first they'll usually decide they're ok, especially, as I said, if they trust their rider. Once they're in the cave don't tie them if they're nervous; horses get scared if they can't move, so let them walk in circles until they settle down. Also food will help keep them calm once they're inside.



BWFoster78 said:


> 2. I need to add some tension by having one of the horses pull up lame.  I need a condition, with a description, that will prevent the horse from carrying a rider, but I want him to be able to recover after a few days of rest.  Got anything for me?  Also, my assumption is that it will slow another horse down if they have to ride double.  Sound legit?



Yes, riding double definitely slows a horse down. Horses pull up lame for a lot of reasons, getting kicked, stumbling, stepping wrong, etc. Also they can bruise the bottom of their feet, which is probably the most common; it's called a stone bruise. If you look up a diagram of a horse's hoof on google you'll see they have a triangular shaped part on the bottom of their hoof called the frog. This part is tender and right at the back of it is the heel, which can bruise from rocks or riding too hard. A bruise can take anywhere from days to weeks to heal depending on how bad it is, so you can stretch the lameness as long as you want. Obviously you can tell a horse is lame because he'll be limping, and also his head will bob slightly as he steps. You'd check the oot he favors by running your hands down the leg to feel for swelling and then picking up the hoof to feel for heat. Tap slightly along the sole, heel, and frog to check for tenderness; if it's bruised the horse will probably try to pull away because it's painful. Then all there is to do is rest the horse. If you have to keep riding (which is what I'm assuming you have to do based on the double rider question) you'll have to go a little slower so the horse can pick his way more carefully, and he'll be limping anyway.



BWFoster78 said:


> 3. I need to show that some horses are "well bred."  These are mounts used by soldiers.  Any descriptive terms you could toss my way to add a little flavor?



A destrier is a type of war horse. It's going to have a lot more muscle, especially in the neck and hindquarters, and the shoulders as well. A war horse is trained to be collected when he moves, which means he rounds his neck, llifts his back, and propels himself off his hind end. A horse that hasn't been trained to do that will typically drag himself with his front end when he's ridden. So you've got a more arched neck instead of a straight one, and the crest (the mid part on the top of the neck between the top and bottom) will be prominent. The eyes will be very intelligent and curious, and the head will be well shaped, sculpted even. Large shoulders and a wide chest. The mane and tail will be full. As well as being collected when ridden, he'll have a lot more balance and coordination and upward movement, or more rounded 3-dimensional movement instead of flat, plodding steps. So there's more lift. Hope that helps!


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## ArielFingolfin

ascanius said:


> I grew up around horses, ranching an what not.  I can trim hooves, basic first aid, and work them until they foam but sadly never knew how to describe them.  Like I know hands are used to measure them but what's the conversion factor, or types of coat color, etc.


A hand is 4". Your basic coat colors are:

Bay: brown with black mane, tail, ear tips, legs.
Dark bay: Dark brown or black with back mane, tail etc. The difference between dark bay with a black body and black is that a dark bay will have brown on their nose behind their nostrils and sometimes their flanks and shoulders. A black horse is completely solid black.
Chestnut: reddish brown with same color mane and tail.
Sorrel: like chestnut, but the mane and tail is lighter than the body.
Grey/white: anything from light to dark grey, sometimes with a darker mane and tail.
Palomino: Goldish blonde with white mane and tail.
Buckskin: Tan with black mane, tail, legs, ear tips.
Dun: Goldish yellow with a dorsal stripe (a stripe that runs down the top of their body from ears to tail and usually stripes on legs. You can also have red duns, which are a reddish color with the stripes.
Blue/red roan: grey or red with white hairs mixed in like flecks.


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## BWFoster78

> Hope that helps!



Ariel, that was fantastic information, exactly what I needed.  Thank you so much for taking the time to answer.

Brian


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## BWFoster78

I don't know if you can help with this or not as it's only tangentually related to horses: the view in my head, which might be completely erroneous, is that a lady will not ride a horse with her legs over the saddle unless she's wearing skirts split for riding (I think I picked this up from Jordan's WoT).  

I've got 4 girls wearing fancy dresses.  There's an alarm at the town gate, and they're going to want to ride down to check out what's going on.  How do they handle it?  Change their dresses?  Ride sidesaddle?  How much does riding sidesaddle slow you down?

How would you go about mounting a horse while wearing a humongous dress?  They're at the castle stables, btw, so getting help from stablehands wouldn't be a problem.

Thanks in advance.


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## ArielFingolfin

BWFoster78 said:


> I don't know if you can help with this or not as it's only tangentually related to horses: the view in my head, which might be completely erroneous, is that a lady will not ride a horse with her legs over the saddle unless she's wearing skirts split for riding (I think I picked this up from Jordan's WoT).
> 
> I've got 4 girls wearing fancy dresses.  There's an alarm at the town gate, and they're going to want to ride down to check out what's going on.  How do they handle it?  Change their dresses?  Ride sidesaddle?  How much does riding sidesaddle slow you down?
> 
> How would you go about mounting a horse while wearing a humongous dress?  They're at the castle stables, btw, so getting help from stablehands wouldn't be a problem.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



You can get going pretty fast in a sidesaddle. Never having ridden a horse in a huge dress, I don't know exactly, but I wouldn't think mounting would be too much of a problem, you'd just have to hike up the skirts. When riding the skirt would be hiked up high too, which is why girls typically only rode sidesaddle or in a special skirt. Too much ankle and calf showing  But that's not really something you're thinking of in an emergency.


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## BWFoster78

ArielFingolfin said:


> You can get going pretty fast in a sidesaddle. Never having ridden a horse in a huge dress, I don't know exactly, but I wouldn't think mounting would be too much of a problem, you'd just have to hike up the skirts. When riding the skirt would be hiked up high too, which is why girls typically only rode sidesaddle or in a special skirt. Too much ankle and calf showing  But that's not really something you're thinking of in an emergency.



Okay, so sidesaddle doesn't necessarily slow you down too much.  I'll go with that then.

It's not like a life or death situation.  The duke is responding to an alarm, and they want to be included in what's going on.

Thank you again!!!


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## SeverinR

BWFoster78 said:


> I don't know if you can help with this or not as it's only tangentually related to horses: the view in my head, which might be completely erroneous, is that a lady will not ride a horse with her legs over the saddle unless she's wearing skirts split for riding (I think I picked this up from Jordan's WoT).
> 
> I've got 4 girls wearing fancy dresses.  There's an alarm at the town gate, and they're going to want to ride down to check out what's going on.  How do they handle it?  Change their dresses?  Ride sidesaddle?  How much does riding sidesaddle slow you down?
> How would you go about mounting a horse while wearing a humongous dress?  They're at the castle stables, btw, so getting help from stablehands wouldn't be a problem.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



It takes time to adjust the dress when sitting in a regular saddle, but it can be done.
riding a horse in a flowing gown - Bing Images

I think it depends on the culture. Side 



I don't see riding in a hoop skirt.  
In a full flowing dress, side saddle would work.  Side saddle was not the only way to ride though.

I believe in and before the crusades, the side saddle was nothing but a pad, no one would be able to ride fast in this manner.
When the side saddle was created, it allowed a foot rest and a back rest, so she would be more likely to remain in the saddle. I also have heard referenced that women were led while riding side saddle.
Riding a stride even without anything between horse and rider can be done at very good pace, but sitting sidesaddle you would slip off within a few paces.


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## ArielFingolfin

I don't know what they used in medieval times for a sidesaddle, but in early American history women used sidesaddles to compete in fox hunts and such, so they could definitely kick up some dirt in them, including jumping quite high.

Edited in: Just looked it up, sidesaddles were invented in the middle ages, but they weren't very easy to sit in, and typically the horse was led or they rode astride or on a pillion behind a man. It wasn't until the 16th century that sidesaddles adapted to allow women more athleticism in the saddle. 

So I don't know how time accurate to this world you want to keep your world, but that's what I found. Thanks Severin for pointing that out.


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## SeverinR

Having been in a medieval reinactment group with horses, not a single woman rode side saddle, and they were quick to point out this was authentic.

This gives a good quick over view.
Medieval Women, Riding, and the Side Saddle | Sarah Woodbury


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## BWFoster78

ArielFingolfin said:


> I don't know what they used in medieval times for a sidesaddle, but in early American history women used sidesaddles to compete in fox hunts and such, so they could definitely kick up some dirt in them, including jumping quite high.
> 
> Edited in: Just looked it up, sidesaddles were invented in the middle ages, but they weren't very easy to sit in, and typically the horse was led or they rode astride or on a pillion behind a man. It wasn't until the 16th century that sidesaddles adapted to allow women more athleticism in the saddle.
> 
> So I don't know how time accurate to this world you want to keep your world, but that's what I found. Thanks Severin for pointing that out.



Thanks again.  I'm pretty flexible with my technologies, and my world is completely made up.  No need at all to keep it accurate to the middle ages.


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## BWFoster78

> It takes time to adjust the dress when sitting in a regular saddle, but it can be done.
> riding a horse in a flowing gown - Bing Images
> 
> I think it depends on the culture.



Thanks for the link.  I think that it will depend on my characters.  One of them wouldn't mind at all flashing a little ankle flesh while getting on the horse while another wouldn't dream of it.  The other two I'm less sure about.


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## gavintonks

Woman in a dress like that would not ride, it is like the Spanish they literally sit behind a male rider. The length of the front of the dress would prevent view and froth interfering with the reins, as it would bunch.

Most dresses of that nature are hooped so the wire bends the cloth up. You need to drop your leg down to ride, as you require contact. Horses are trained to be ridden side saddle you just do not throw a saddle on and expect the horse to obey.
So the rider rides up to a plinth and the woman sits on her dress behind her rider, it also means the dress does not interfere with the horses actions, the horse unless trained would probably see the bouncing dress in the peripheral vision and spook


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## ArielFingolfin

I guess I should have asked what type of dresses your characters are wearing. I was assuming it was just fabric, not a hoop skirt (which would be a challenge to ride in).


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## BWFoster78

To be honest, there are things that I know less about than medieval women's fashion, but not too many.  I'm envisioning big dresses, but they're not coming from a ball.  I was thinking fabric.


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## Ankari

BWFoster78 said:


> To be honest, there are things that I know less about than medieval women's fashion, but not too many.  I'm envisioning big dresses, but they're not coming from a ball.  I was thinking fabric.



You should ask Anihow to steer you in the right direction.  I am going through much of the same confusion as you when it comes to clothing.  She has helped tremendously.  From what I gathered about the time period most noble women wore many layers of clothing.  They wore a shift (long tunic), then another shift atop that, then petticoats, then the outer dress then finally a coat.  I'm sure I'm missing some layers.  

Unless they are based of of Mediterranean nobles (implying your area is hot) then your noble would wear drastically less layers.  Check out Anihow's gallery to see some of the stuff she created, they're awesome.


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## Graylorne

Speaking about saddles, I've got this young lad in a WiP who is paralysed from the waist down (its a psychological matter, not physical). He very much wants to ride again. The society is magical/semi-medieval, but not primitive. I've googled some elaborate contraptions, but that's not really in style. I'd appreciate any suggestions.


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## SeverinR

Graylorne said:


> Speaking about saddles, I've got this young lad in a WiP who is paralysed from the waist down (its a psychological matter, not physical). He very much wants to ride again. The society is magical/semi-medieval, but not primitive. I've googled some elaborate contraptions, but that's not really in style. I'd appreciate any suggestions.



Horse Saddles for Disabled Riders
Currently even modern day paraplegics have trouble getting a saddle. There is a pic of a saddle for para's.

Not primitive? Like not caveman era? Or not primative like the wild west? 
Hard to nail down a time frame.  Bc, 100ad, 1200ad, 1600 ad, 1800's, industrial age? Saddles for these eras are alot different. 
oldest saddle known to man-3000bc.

Here is a site of saddles through history.
Historical Saddles - Home


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## ArielFingolfin

Sweet site, Severin!

Graylorne: The most important thing is lower back support, so something on the back of the saddle like a chair seat, and then secure straps for the legs. The horse would have to be trained to go off voice command and the reins since horses are trained to listen to seat and legs first. A driving horse would be good for him since they're trained to listen to voice more than anything else as well as reins.


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## Graylorne

Not primitive as in not medieval. It's not an industrial society, because of the magic. But they could produce highlevel saddles, as long as there's no technological elements involved. Thanks for the links, SeverinR, I'll check them out.

Lower back support and something to secure the legs. I think I get the picture. So I need to find a obedient carthorse for him. This helps a lot, thanks, ArielFingolfin.


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## ArielFingolfin

No problem  A carthorse would be a good start while they were training another horse if he wanted something flashier if that's what your character wanted. Just out of curiosity, why can your character not use his lower body?


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## Mindfire

Is there any kind of horse that does fairly well in arid/desert climates and savannah? If not I'll just invent one I suppose. But if there was such a horse, what would the breed look like and what kind of physical features would it need to live in that kind of environment?

It should be noted that said desert _does_ have oases here and there.


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## Graylorne

> No problem  A carthorse would be a good start while they were training another horse if he wanted something flashier if that's what your character wanted. Just out of curiosity, why can your character not use his lower body?



Shock. When he was younger (he's about 17 in the book) he was riding out with his best friend. They encountered some monsters who chased them. His horse stumbled into his friend's mount and both boys fell off. The friend was horribly killed by the monsters, while he played dead. After the monsters were gone, he was in shock and gradually lost strength in his legs. He also started to stutter, lost self-confidence, feels guilty and has an over-protective father.

After posting I realized a discrepancy, for he had to be able to walk with crutches. So it's not a total paralysis but more of a severe weakness. 

Also he is found to have powerful magic, so my MC forces him out of his despondency.

Training a horse wouldn't be a problem, the king has plenty. But to start with a lazy old carthorse would be a nice touch.


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## Ankari

Mindfire said:


> Is there any kind of horse that does fairly well in arid/desert climates and savannah? If not I'll just invent one I suppose. But if there was such a horse, what would the breed look like and what kind of physical features would it need to live in that kind of environment?
> 
> It should be noted that said desert _does_ have oases here and there.



Arabian horses. 

You can read the Wiki article here

They are smaller but very strong.  They thrive at endurance races.


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## ArielFingolfin

Yeah, look up Arabian horses. The basics characteristics of the breed are that they're built very lightly and have a lot of endurance. Also they're known for having a dished face (look up pictures and you'll see that I mean). Temperment is very smart but also they can be a littly flighty and high strung.


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## SeverinR

Graylorne said:


> Shock. When he was younger (he's about 17 in the book) he was riding out with his best friend. They encountered some monsters who chased them. His horse stumbled into his friend's mount and both boys fell off. The friend was horribly killed by the monsters, while he played dead. After the monsters were gone, he was in shock and gradually lost strength in his legs. He also started to stutter, lost self-confidence, feels guilty and has an over-protective father.
> 
> After posting I realized a discrepancy, for he had to be able to walk with crutches. So it's not a total paralysis but more of a severe weakness.
> 
> Also he is found to have powerful magic, so my MC forces him out of his despondency.
> 
> Training a horse wouldn't be a problem, the king has plenty. But to start with a lazy old carthorse would be a nice touch.


pinched nerve could cause the need for crutches, or even just a psycological block.

Ariel: I never realized cart horses were cued verbally, always in the movies they snap or flip the reins.


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## Graylorne

> SeverinR said: pinched nerve could cause the need for crutches, or even just a psycological block.



It's a bloc I was thinking of. Something that can be cured if it becomes necessary.


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## ArielFingolfin

SeverinR said:


> I never realized cart horses were cued verbally, always in the movies they snap or flip the reins.



Ah, movies  

Snapping the reins (or whip if you have one) is a way to cue a horse, but your typical driving horse is well trained to voice as well. It's one of the reasons I love working with horses that are broke to drive; they tend to keep an ear cocked to your voice. 

Have you ever tried driving? If not and you get a chance, I'd totally recommend it, Severin. Maybe not quite as exciting as throwing spears from a galloping horse (which I still plan to try sometimes), but still fun


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## ArielFingolfin

Graylorne said:


> Shock. When he was younger (he's about 17 in the book) he was riding out with his best friend. They encountered some monsters who chased them. His horse stumbled into his friend's mount and both boys fell off. The friend was horribly killed by the monsters, while he played dead. After the monsters were gone, he was in shock and gradually lost strength in his legs. He also started to stutter, lost self-confidence, feels guilty and has an over-protective father.
> 
> After posting I realized a discrepancy, for he had to be able to walk with crutches. So it's not a total paralysis but more of a severe weakness.
> 
> Also he is found to have powerful magic, so my MC forces him out of his despondency.
> 
> Training a horse wouldn't be a problem, the king has plenty. But to start with a lazy old carthorse would be a nice touch.



Yikes, sounds like fun. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have moved from the ground at all; I'd still be there terrified out of my wits.


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## SeverinR

ArielFingolfin said:


> Ah, movies
> 
> Snapping the reins (or whip if you have one) is a way to cue a horse, but your typical driving horse is well trained to voice as well. It's one of the reasons I love working with horses that are broke to drive; they tend to keep an ear cocked to your voice.
> 
> Have you ever tried driving? If not and you get a chance, I'd totally recommend it, Severin. Maybe not quite as exciting as throwing spears from a galloping horse (which I still plan to try sometimes), but still fun



I have not, it does sound interesting. Sadly no drivers in the SCA. There are rules for them, but no one around.
Been on several wagon trains, didn't pay attention to the wagon, except when they had many more horses tied to them on the way back, with the kids in the wagons.

Just found the spear head someone made for me, it is attached to my pole, haven't peened the rivots yet. 
First spear, was heavier then it looked, no where close to the target. Next event through the heart. (also spearer the small ring, and won the event.)
The different "games" we played with our horses.
SCA equestrian games

Bottom three are experienced riders only, so I did not participate.


----------



## BWFoster78

I need for my mounted characters to be traveling at as fast a pace as possible for about two weeks because they've got the bad guys on their tail.  How fast is that?  What terms would you use to describe the pace of the horses?  How often do they have to rest their horses?  They are traveling through mountains for the first part of the journey.  How does that impact the speed and the terminology?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Graylorne

BWFoster78 said:


> I need for my mounted characters to be traveling at as fast a pace as possible for about two weeks because they've got the bad guys on their tail.  How fast is that?  What terms would you use to describe the pace of the horses?  How often do they have to rest their horses?  They are traveling through mountains for the first part of the journey.  How does that impact the speed and the terminology?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



My knowledge of horses is limited to the fact that they have four legs and a tail. 
But I was faced with this same question, and I googled up some (to me) adequate answers.
I'll give you the links:

How fast can a man travel on horseback, ?miles per day? - Yahoo! Answers

Fantasy Fiction Factor - Using Horses in Fiction

Hope this helps a bit.

And I'm interested in all additional info the experts might supply!


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## SeverinR

BWfoster:
In an emergency, one tends to get away without prep. So with little or no prep, how fas they move will be alot different then well prepared.
Horses need good food and need time to graze on fiber(grass/hay) so their bowels will keep active. Reduce the fiber increases the chance of colic, serious colic kills. So a rider must graze regularly or allow a walking horse the chance to eat from a bag of hay, and feed the horse grain to keep it healthy.

The pursuers always have the option of a hail mary, charge while the fleeing people stop to allow their horses to graze. Risk their horses for the chance to end the pursuit. If they suceed the pursuit is over and the horses get time to recover, if not they can ride their horses to death or loose distance behind the pursued, and allow their horses to recover.
The pursued don't have that option. They either flee or stop and fight.

Fast prolonged travel; dangerous on uneven ground, horses can break a leg easily. Galloping on a road is fairly safe, sometimes even troting in a grassy field can be dangerous. 
Mountain travel is slow, the ones on the mountain are slow but the ones pursuing keep going at a good speed so they will catch up a little, until they reach the mountain, then the type and condtion of horses will set the pace. 

Horse and exhaustion: One loooooooooooong trail ride, my daughters horse stopped listening to her, so I traded her horses, I had to keep waking the horse up, he would walk and fall asleep, slow down, or drift of the trail, click to him his head would pop up and he would basically pick up the pace and get back in line by himself then slowly drift off again.
When they are tired, they will not respond to direction well.

I can't give specifics but can offer what I have seen and know of horses.


----------



## Caged Maiden

Also it depends on the type of horses.  Their characteristics all make for very different scenes: wide hooves vs. narrow, slender bodies vs. draft-style animals, long legs vs. short legs, etc.  Some horses will be easier to work with in mountains, while others are well adapted for marshy ground.  

A google search on wild horses might help you to understand the differences.  I refer to books I've owned for years.


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## ArielFingolfin

Horses can reach 75 to 100 miles a day, but that would be under extremely ideal conditions, flat, even ground and well rested horses that are used to long stretches. Mountainous conditions would obviously differ that a good deal. If it's rocky your horses would have to be mostly walking. Is there a trail or road, or do they have to bushwhack? If the latter, like I said, they're going to be walking. A horse will walk at 2 to 4 miles per hour, but if it's rocky they'll go closer to 2. Here's a link about the gaits: http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/info/horsespeedmph.htm 

If there's more than one horse per character they can switch out and go for longer stretches without stopping, but they'd still need to take breaks. If they're camping for the night they don't need to stop during the day, just take walk breaks every couple hours for a few miles. Endurance riders will do a 75 mile ride in 7 to 8 hours, but they're race only lasts a day. You'd need to go a little slower if you didn't want to wear your horse out over the course of weeks. So I'd say once you get on the flat out of the mountains maybe 35 to 45 miles. That's a rough guess based on what I've read about endurance racers though. I'd browse through Graylornes' links for more information.

Basic information about a horse's gaits (sorry if you already know this; I'm trying to be thorough  ):

A walk is obviously a walk
A trot is the next gait, it's got two beats, which means two hooves hit the ground at a time. You'll probably alternate between trots and walks on a long ride of the caliber that you're talking about. 
A canter is next, it's three beats. The motion is rocking. 
Lastly is a gallop, or a run in nonhorseman terms.

I can't really think of any terms, but when you're riding through rocky terrain or trailblazing it's best to let the horse have their head or ride with a loose rein because horses use their neck for balance. When riding downhill, you want to stay sitting upright, slightly back with a loose rein, and when riding up a steep hill you want to stand up in the saddle to get off the horse's back so they can push with their hind legs. Also if the hill is really steep either way, horses will tend to go diagonally down to make it easier. I typically like to have a mare (female horse) in front when trailblazing because they're a little more careful about where they put theyir feet. Geldings/stallions tend to just plow through things without looking. 

That's all I can think of; hope it helps.


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## BWFoster78

All that helps a bunch.  Thanks!

In answer to a few questions: They had ample time to prepare for their journey prior to breaking the protagonist out of jail.  They've now got pursuers on their trail.  I did not give them spare mounts, just one horse for each of the four riders and only enough provisions that they can carry.

They are traveling a well worn path with plenty of grass for the first majority of the journey and are, for the most part, camping each night.

By walk break, does that mean the characters get off and walk for a couple of miles or does that mean slowing the horses from a trot to a walk?

I'm a little confused about whether the horses need food during the day since they rest at night.


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## ArielFingolfin

No, they can ride the horses while walking. They don't need to eat during the day, but at night they need to be hobbled so they can graze. A hobble is basically a rope tied around the ankle of a front leg and a back leg so they horse can walk but can't run away. Or you could give them a picket line, which is a rope tied to the ground that they can eat around. You could probably look up pictures to give you a better idea. Either way they'll be able to get grass at night.


----------



## BWFoster78

Fantastic.  Thanks again so much for the assistance.


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## ArielFingolfin

Maybe I should start charging...


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## gavintonks

grass alone is insufficient for a horse to provide energy for a rider and hard work on grass will see the horses looking like skeletons in days and hours
2 - horses are grazers and need to eat, if you feed grain and fill their stomachs they will be able to work longer
3 - their feet / shod or barefoot as hard riding wears the hoof
4- going up mountains is hard work in some cases it is easier to lead
5 - distance riders practice at least 20k a day everyday to achieve a distance ride and then the horses need a week to recuperate
6 - you need at least 16l of water as well as the temperature will dictate the water loss
7 -if you get a 2k head start that's not a lot, plus  as others have mentioned
is the horse suited - different breeds do different things
how fit is the horse?
has it just eaten or drunk

horses have snooze periods where they lock their legs and sleep but they also require a time to lie down and sleep
how much are they carrying? that is also an impact on their ability to work
cowboy movies have done a lot to make people think it just goes on forever but I would say 3km
plus of course do not think you are just going to get on any horse and it will perform for you, unless it is trained or used to being ridden by different people


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## gavintonks

I used to do a long ride every month and about 30k was 6 hours on a very fit horse. 8 hours when we went to the beach I would say 400k in 2 weeks but you also lead a trail a mile wide and its easy to see if a horse has past as the sand oxidizes so you can easily gauge time up to 2 days
so have pursuers be at leaast a day away they can see them in the distance as in some landscapes you can easily see 100k


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## SeverinR

gavintonks said:


> 3 - their feet / shod or barefoot as hard riding wears the hoof
> 4- going up mountains is hard work in some cases it is easier to lead
> 5 - distance riders practice at least 20k a day everyday to achieve a distance ride and then the horses need a week to recuperate
> 6 - you need at least 16l of water as well as the temperature will dictate the water loss
> 7 -if you get a 2k head start that's not a lot, plus  as others have mentioned
> is the horse suited - different breeds do different things
> how fit is the horse?
> has it just eaten or drunk
> 
> horses have snooze periods where they lock their legs and sleep but they also require a time to lie down and sleep
> how much are they carrying? that is also an impact on their ability to work
> cowboy movies have done a lot to make people think it just goes on forever but I would say 3km
> plus of course do not think you are just going to get on any horse and it will perform for you, unless it is trained or used to being ridden by different people


#3: Some people might not realize, horses don't have to be shod. It cost money, and in the right conditions a horse does just as well without iron nailed to the hoof.
#4: Some horses do better on mountain trails so one rider might be better walking the horse, one might be better to ride. My paint was great walking along a cliff, but some horses were clumsy and nervous near cliffs.
#6:Water: Very good reminder, humorous posiiblity; If hot, the horse will walk into the water, and will paw at the water, this is a warning that the horse is about to lay down in the water. (Mine started down just as I spurred him out of the water.)

Horses sleep: How often do they lay down? I very rarely found my horses laying down. I assume they're schedule had them getting up well before I came to feed.

Like in cowboy movies, if your being chased, campfires are probably not a good idea.


----------



## Devor

How far can a horse jump?  I know the world record is almost 30 ft., but I'm wondering what's more typical.  If the horse has a rider and some gear, how far would you expect him to be able to jump?


----------



## gavintonks

depends from a standstill or what gait walking or galloping but 3 to 9ft also depending on the size of the horse bigger the horse longer the stride


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## SeverinR

Devor said:


> How far can a horse jump?  I know the world record is almost 30 ft., but I'm wondering what's more typical.  If the horse has a rider and some gear, how far would you expect him to be able to jump?



30ft would have to be a running jump.  My colt did a standing jump over a downed tree, easily cleared it, at least one body length forward movement, so I'd guess 5-6 ft?


----------



## Devor

SeverinR said:


> 30ft would have to be a running jump.  My colt did a standing jump over a downed tree, easily cleared it, at least one body length forward movement, so I'd guess 5-6 ft?



And at a run?


----------



## SeverinR

Have no idea on a full run.

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/info/worldrecord_jump.html
High jump-8'3"

"The world record long jump was set on April 26, 1975 by a horse named "Something" ridden by a Mr. Andre Ferreira. This pair jumped a distance of 8.40 meters (27 ft. 6 in.). The more "stride" the horse has the better "walker" it is considered to be."  
What is the record for the horse with the longest stride? | ChaCha

I guess he really was..."Something".


----------



## gavintonks

the distance traversed is related to the horses ability as an athlete. I recall Andre horse he rode was his pony he rode through the grades. So he was very small not like the big warm bloods today.The wall he jumped was incredible the horse jumped over the wall he could not even see over it, but his trust in Andre was absolute and he was just an excellent athlete. This happened in my home town and I knew the stables he rode at. I had a a grade pony I used to ride and we could easily jump on a lunging circle,the poles were angled and around 1,2 m high I could jump out of the area on a stride and jump back in again. He was just a superlative athlete.  

There has never been another horse I have felt so comfortable jumping as he loved to jump and never ever said no. Sp how athletic is the horse, and how willing is the horse willing to jump, a horse used to jumping if you look at a cross country clip on u tube you will see most jumps are around 1, high and 2m wide and are ridden at around 32m a minute


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## BWFoster78

Not sure if this is the right place to ask this or not.  It tangentially involves horses.

My intrepid heroes are caught in a howling snowstorm making their way to a large cavern for shelter (Oh no!  Will they make it?  How can they survive in the horrid snow?).  They're on foot leading their horses and pass by a grove of trees.  One of them gets the bright idea to gather a bit of wood for later use for fires in the cave.  

I first thought, they'll just tie the stupid wood to the saddles, no problem.  I got this comment:



> Unrealistic. Consider how hard it is to bundle together odd pieces of wood. Now add snow, low visibility, wind, cold, skittish horses. Tying a rope around a recalcitrant bundle of stocks and onto a moving horse is impossible.



Question 1: Is the comment valid?  They have rope.  Can they just tie some limbs to the side of the saddle?

Question 2: If Q1 is no, how would you do it?  They don't need a ton of wood at this point, 8 to 10 good sized branches should get them through for now.  I was thinking maybe putting some on the top of each horse's saddle and covering it with a bedroll.  If you hold the bedroll, maybe that'll keep things stable. 

Question 3: Our intrepid heroes make it to the cavern (Yay!  That was a close one.).  Turns out, this cavern goes on a long way, and they plan to go through it instead of over the snowed in passes.  One of them decides they need more wood and decides to go out for it.  How best to do this if you had a little time to prepare?  I'm thinking some kind of make shift litter, two long branches with the bedroll stitched between, that the horse drags.  Will this work?  How do I attach it to the saddle?

Question 4: Completely unrelated to horses, I need to incapicitate our lovely hero while she gathers wood.  Would a tree falling on her work, or does it make sense for the storm to blow over a tree?  They're on a mountain.  She could step in a hole and get her foot caught.  I leave her with a limp the rest of the way, but I can't have the leg broken.

Thanks so much in advance for your help.


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## T.Allen.Smith

BWFoster78 said:
			
		

> Not sure if this is the right place to ask this or not.  It tangentially involves horses.
> 
> My intrepid heroes are caught in a howling snowstorm making their way to a large cavern for shelter (Oh no!  Will they make it?  How can they survive in the horrid snow?).  They're on foot leading their horses and pass by a grove of trees.  One of them gets the bright idea to gather a bit of wood for later use for fires in the cave.
> 
> I first thought, they'll just tie the stupid wood to the saddles, no problem.  I got this comment:
> 
> Question 1: Is the comment valid?  They have rope.  Can they just tie some limbs to the side of the saddle?
> 
> Question 2: If Q1 is no, how would you do it?  They don't need a ton of wood at this point, 8 to 10 good sized branches should get them through for now.  I was thinking maybe putting some on the top of each horse's saddle and covering it with a bedroll.  If you hold the bedroll, maybe that'll keep things stable.
> 
> Question 3: Our intrepid heroes make it to the cavern (Yay!  That was a close one.).  Turns out, this cavern goes on a long way, and they plan to go through it instead of over the snowed in passes.  One of them decides they need more wood and decides to go out for it.  How best to do this if you had a little time to prepare?  I'm thinking some kind of make shift litter, two long branches with the bedroll stitched between, that the horse drags.  Will this work?  How do I attach it to the saddle?
> 
> Question 4: Completely unrelated to horses, I need to incapicitate our lovely hero while she gathers wood.  Would a tree falling on her work, or does it make sense for the storm to blow over a tree?  They're on a mountain.  She could step in a hole and get her foot caught.  I leave her with a limp the rest of the way, but I can't have the leg broken.
> 
> Thanks so much in advance for your help.



1) it's somewhat valid. I say somewhat because I find an unrealistic tint to it somewhere else. If I'm freezing & need to get shelter or die, the last thing I'm going to do is bundle up some firewood in pretty little packages and secure them to the saddle. What I might do though is to find some larger pieces of wood, tie a rope to them, and have my horse drag them to the cave.

2) see #1

3) if you use the method in #1 your character could reserve 2 of the longer wood pieces to form a litter. Tie an end of each to the saddle horn (this means the character will be walking). Lash the logs they find to the litter.

4) the biggest problem with this scene that I see could serve as a solution. If its snowing that much and the winds are really kicking, yes wind can knock a tree over. This is especially true of a dead tree or one that collapses due to the added weight of snow & ice. However, the first thing I thought of was "How is she & the horse even going to walk if that much snow has fallen?" Does she know enough woodsman lore to make herself snowshoes? If the snows aren't to dangerous levels where considerations like this aren't important then I think your tension is weakened. So.... If she isn't an experienced woodsman, use her ignorance. Snow drifts are tricky. The amount of weight that packed snow and ice can carry is vastly different from the amount of weight that a fresh drift can bear. Thing is, they look the same on the surface. 
Years ago, back in my days as a young Marine, I took part in a training exercise 200 miles above the arctic circle. I saw people with improperly fitted snowshoes (or none at all) fall right through snow banks. Don't stress they came out just fine. If they were alone though, well they might have had some serious issues. Snow and ice can hide all kinds of nasty surprises beneath a calm surface. Could she fall into a chasm? That would serve to render her unconscious while at the same time protect her somewhat from exposure to the wind.


----------



## BWFoster78

> 1) it's somewhat valid. I say somewhat because I find an unrealistic tint to it somewhere else. If I'm freezing & need to get shelter or die, the last thing I'm going to do is bundle up some firewood in pretty little packages and secure them to the saddle. What I might do though is to find some larger pieces of wood, tie a rope to them, and have my horse drag them to the cave.



I'm not sure they're freezing to death as much as quite ready to find shelter.  They have adequate clothes for the weather.  They are quite fearful of wondering around a dangerous mountain slope in low visibility.

I do like your solution.  Simple and elegant.  Thanks!



> 3) if you use the method in #1 your character could reserve 2 of the longer wood pieces to form a litter. Tie an end of each to the saddle horn (this means the character will be walking). Lash the logs they find to the litter.



Works.  Good deal.



> Could she fall into a chasm? That would serve to render her unconscious while at the same time protect her somewhat from exposure to the wind.



I like this a lot as well.  I had her injuring her ankle in a previous draft and don't want to change it.  She can injure it in the fall, and the chasm can be deep enough that she has no hope of climbing out.  Just have to figure out how her friends find her.

Thanks again.  That was a great help!


----------



## BWFoster78

One more quick one:

I described a huge overhang prior to the cave's entrance, and have the protagonist ask if the horses would be all right there.  Here's the answer:



> “It’s perfect,” Brant said.  “It’s wide, out of the wet, and three sides are protected from the wind.  They’ll be fine.  We’ll put rocks on top of their reins to secure them.”



Does any part of this bother you?


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

Depends on the discipline level of the horses. A well trained horse won't pull away from even a weak tether. However, if it's a concern then the rock will have to be heavy.

If it was me I wouldn't even discuss the how & why of the actual tying off. I'd just give the setting the horses will be sheltered in. Whether or not the characters toss boulders on top of the leads or whether they just tie them off on a large rock really doesn't matter.


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## ArielFingolfin

Well everyone's pretty much answered 

You can tie wood to a saddle; I attach stuff to saddles all the time. And if the horses are well trained they'll drag stuff. 

I think I've mentioned hobbling horses, but you can also have horses that are trained to 'ground tie' which is where they've been trained not to wander when they're left alone. Also the rocks would work, but they would have to be on the heavy side.

It's so cool to see all the horse wise people here


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## JonSnow

I have a question more about what to call certain horses. For instance, I'm currently reading George R.R. Martin, so I'll use his writing as an example... he uses "garron" a lot to refer to the horses ridden by warriors in battle. I don't know if this is a general term that anybody can use, or if Martin created it himself. I've also seen other fantasy authors use generic names for horses, such as "destrier" (Robert Jordan, if I remember correctly). Again, I don't know which ones are commonly used, and which ones are made up by the author. 

I was wondering if anybody knew (or could easily compile a list, if there is one) of what certain types of horses are called (not necessarily the breed) by size, strength, speed, male/female, etc. I would assume a "garron" is a large, strong male horse that can easily carry the weight of a man in full armor, and can probably run fairly quickly. 

My apologies if this has been asked already, but I didn't see any answers to this as I read through the thread. Thanks!!


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## BWFoster78

The more I write, the more I realize how little I know about horses.  You'd think that I would've picked more up from all those fantasy novels I read.  I can't express to y'all how helpful this thread is.

My next question:

Timmy and his family have gone camping in a snowstorm.  He and his faithful horse, Lassie, go looking for firewood.  Oh no!  Timmy falls into a well.  What does Lassie do?

A. Return to where the other horses are.
B. Stay by the well.
C. Wander off.

BTW, Lassie belongs to a militia and is well trained.  I'm not exactly sure what kind of training, but there was definitely a lot of it going on.

Thanks again.


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## BWFoster78

Sorry, yet another one:

My intrepid heroes are on the side of a mountain in a severe snowstorm.  I'm assuming that it's unsafe to ride in those conditions and that walking the horses is a good idea.  Does that track?

Also, when they go to rescue Timmy from the question above, they leave the horses behind.  Does this make sense?  If not, I need it to make sense.  Any ideas?

Thanks again again.


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## BWFoster78

I'm starting to regret even including horses in my story.  In epic fantasy, though, it's hard to get by without them.  

I asked a similar question and got great answers earlier, but I want to describe the scene a little better.

I need to know how to get the horses to go into a dark tunnel.  It's too low to ride them.  Do you pull the reins?  Slap them?  Will them resist?  How?  Kick?  What?


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## SeverinR

I believe a normal horse would graze or seek out herd mates depending on how independant it is.




BWFoster78 said:


> Sorry, yet another one:
> 
> My intrepid heroes are on the side of a mountain in a severe snowstorm.  I'm assuming that it's unsafe to ride in those conditions and that walking the horses is a good idea.  Does that track?
> 
> Also, when they go to rescue Timmy from the question above, they leave the horses behind.  Does this make sense?  If not, I need it to make sense.  Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks again again.


Anytime you are uncertain about footing, walking a horse is best. Deep snow covering rough terrain sounds like a good time to walk them.

Timmy in a well, if they don't have someone strong enough to pull him up, a horse could help. Otherwise horses are good staying safe, with or without being near the family.

Don't know about the dark tunnel. I have rode a horse into a giant cave, 15 horses across took up only half of the cave width and it wasn't dark.


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## Ankari

I stumbled upon this website with horse sounds.  May be useful to some people.


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## SeverinR

great list of horse sounds, each one shows what the horse is communicating.


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## Ankari

SeverinR said:


> great list of horse sounds, each one shows what the horse is communicating.




That's good to hear.  I tried to find the noise a horse makes when in pain.  I posted an scene in Showcase with the request that someone familiar with horses validate the authenticity of the "dying horse" segment.

If if wouldn't bother you, could you look into that for me?


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## Taro

Interesting post Ankari, i would think if the horse had been inflicted real amount of pain while dying it would be squealing of sorts... i know not very pretty


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## SeverinR

I did a quick look, didn't find anything.
Sudden severe pain would be a shriek, not much different then a woman's scream. I would guess.
Dying would a low nervous blow.


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## Ankari

SeverinR, you can find the scene here


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## SeverinR

Ankari said:


> SeverinR, you can find the scene here



If I read it right, the horse is suddenly stuck immobile, it would be a shriek of panic. (high pitched with terror)
Then the pain of the attack; scream of pain, less frantic, but still high pitched.
dying would be a low depressed sound similar to this:"An expectant nicker with a second nicker for good measure." (on the horse sounds link)


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## BWFoster78

New question:

I show my heroes riding in wet/rainy/muddy conditions with the bad guys right on their tale.  How dangerous is this?  Should I show one of the bad guys going down?  How would this happen?

Thanks.


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## gavintonks

well the horses slow down to a walk and place their feet very gingerly, so you would have a group of horses looking at the ground ignoring their riders mostly for their own safety 
they would not risk injury to themselves, so the question is how much on their tails?
the other thing is horses do not like being in driving rain and turn their bums into the rain, so again you will have a group of people standing around with the rain at their backs
Riding with a horse slipping underneath you is no joke either, so you would be best advised to get off and run with the horse


----------



## BWFoster78

gavintonks said:


> well the horses slow down to a walk and place their feet very gingerly, so you would have a group of horses looking at the ground ignoring their riders mostly for their own safety
> they would not risk injury to themselves, so the question is how much on their tails?
> the other thing is horses do not like being in driving rain and turn their bums into the rain, so again you will have a group of people standing around with the rain at their backs
> Riding with a horse slipping underneath you is no joke either, so you would be best advised to get off and run with the horse



Does this apply to muddy, but not rainy, conditions as well?

I'm sure I've seen movies with horses galloping through mud.  You seem to imply that it wouldn't happen.


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## gavintonks

Please do not believe what you see in the movies. They have 5 different horses to play scenes and spray paint them to look the same.

A galloping scene in a movie is a carefully prepared stretch of sand probably built up on layers with hidden sprinklers and people with buckets of mud throwing it around for effect.Their are spca and animal rights representatives on scene, hundreds of technical people and camera dolleys for the close ups. The horses are trained for at least a month before and acclimatised to the equipment and scene.

They also have casting roles for the horses.
Mud is slippery and dangerous or glutinous and sticky, either way 800kg on 4 legs galloping at between 440 and 40k [for a 1km stretch at a time, is not going to splash through a difficult terrain
Plus your weight on the animals back and what ever else you are carrying 

Hollywoood has always added the emotion into the scene for entertainment value
Same as Zirro just follow the hoof prints horses make tracks running up and down the same paths they quickly cut a 2inch pathway and compact the soil


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## BWFoster78

Okay.  Thanks for the input.

I'm minimize the amount of mud.

Thanks!


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## gavintonks

hahahhha have a road as there are always road links between towns for cartridges etc


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## gavintonks

sorry carriages and they can splash through the water


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## gavintonks

Journey to The Super Bowl - YouTube behind the scenes of budweiser commercials to get an idea of a horse centric film set and the set ups which are later edited to be what you see in the ad


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## Callan37

I'm not sure if this has been asked, but I only skimmed through most of the posts to this point, so my apologies in advance if this is a repeat:

I'm curious how far a horse could travel with a rider on its back in a week's time. I know almost nothing about different breeds of horse, so if that would make a difference, I would love to know that as well. 

Thank you!


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## dangit

similar to the question about desert horses, My MC is a horse archer and I was wondering what breed of horse would be best if going through forests of mountains as well as plains for long periods at a time.

Thanks for any help:cloud9:.


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## CupofJoe

Callan37 said:


> I'm not sure if this has been asked, but I only skimmed through most of the posts to this point, so my apologies in advance if this is a repeat:
> 
> I'm curious how far a horse could travel with a rider on its back in a week's time. I know almost nothing about different breeds of horse, so if that would make a difference, I would love to know that as well.
> 
> Thank you!


Callan37
I've read that 30 miles a day for a week would be considered good. but of course any distance will be affected by weather and terrain just like it would be for humans walking. I have also read that every week or so you have to give your horse a day to rest.
I have found this site a mine of information.... The Care and Feeding of Fictional Horses 
and this site can be useful... The Long Riders' Guild


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## Scribe Lord

I have I quick question. In my story I have a man trying to cross a desert on a horse. So basically, how long could a horse last traveling through a desert? He's going to have to navigate through hot sand and rocks, and with no water and very little food. What reaction would you expect to get from the horse as time goes on?


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## BWFoster78

Can one ride a horse and sleep in the saddle?  If so, how difficult is it to accomplish?  Any kind of description of what it would be like?

Thanks.

Brian


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## mollymortensen

I read in a fantasy novel where experienced horsemen had learned the trick of sleeping in the saddle. No clue about actual horses though.


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## SeverinR

BWFoster78 said:


> Can one ride a horse and sleep in the saddle?  If so, how difficult is it to accomplish?  Any kind of description of what it would be like?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Brian


My daughter and her best friend slept on long trail rides many times. They went on night rides and day rides. I dosed on a horse, until my horse started falling asleep while walking.(slowed down and drifted off trail) so even horses can sleep walk.

Basically the lead horse is boss, everyone else follows.


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## wordwalker

The Mongols used to do it (or, everyone said they did-- it might not have been literal). Still, they were some of the best horsemen in history, so that doesn't say how hard it is for other people to learn the trick.


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## SeverinR

I would add, its not a restful sleep, because there is a part of your mind keeping you balanced, deep sleep would mean falling asleep with a painful awakening. (and as any time you fell off the horse, the horse would look at you like your stupid)


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## BWFoster78

From these responses, it appears it would be difficult for my novice horseman character to accomplish, especially considering he's clumsy as a rule.  Would you agree that the most accurate representation would be to have him nod off and nearly fall from the horse?

Thanks for the responses!


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## SeverinR

My daughter slept on her third trail ride, her third time riding a horse.  
Its not something you learn, you just get tired and bored and your mind drifts off.

I think anyone riding a long time, would eventually drift off, but a clumsy person could fall off. Staying on a horse requires balance.


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## wordwalker

Then again, you could tie yourself in the saddle. Whether tipping over would wake you up or make the horse stop might be harder to say.


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## gavintonks

dozing and nodding off is easy. sleeping is hard your head weighs about 25kg for an adult so it drops like a stone when you nod off making it very uncomfortable
you can use a hypnotic trance to sleep in the saddle so your muscles remain controlled in the process of riding but your mind is in a state of rest
it would rquire simple self hypnosis techniques


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## Nihal

gavintonks said:


> dozing and nodding off is easy. sleeping is hard *your head weighs about 25kg for an adult* so it drops like a stone when you nod off making it very uncomfortable



You forgot a dot here, otherwise more than half of my weight would be my head, haha. Anyway, the head of an adult should weigh between 4.5kg and 5kg (10 to 12 pounds).


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## BWFoster78

Next question:

My intrepid heroes are compelling their horses through a cave.  Previously in this thread, I've gotten advice on how the horses would react, so thanks for that!

The cave gets tight in one area and the biggest horse is going to be a tight fit.  I'd like one of the characters to stay behind the horse while another leads.  I'm wondering if this makes sense, however.  Is there any reason for him, logically, to do so?  Maybe he could provide light from behind and see from that angle where the horse is encountering difficulty?

Thoughts?


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## T.Allen.Smith

My concern would be danger. I wouldn't want to stand anywhere near the rear of a skittish horse.


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## SeverinR

BWFoster78 said:


> Next question:
> 
> My intrepid heroes are compelling their horses through a cave.  Previously in this thread, I've gotten advice on how the horses would react, so thanks for that!
> 
> The cave gets tight in one area and the biggest horse is going to be a tight fit.  I'd like one of the characters to stay behind the horse while another leads.  I'm wondering if this makes sense, however.  Is there any reason for him, logically, to do so?  Maybe he could provide light from behind and see from that angle where the horse is encountering difficulty?
> 
> Thoughts?


I took my young horse into a cave, of course, 16 horses were side by side in the cave, so it wasn't that much of a concern.

You can inspire a horse to follow be leading it in danger, but following is more likely to spook them. 
Basic horse mentality:
1.Leader decides what is safe for the herd, so they will follow a respected leader.
2.If they see it, they might deal with it, if they are scared and son't see why, something pshing from behind that can't see any better is at least an annoyance to be kicked, at most something trying to eat them, turn trample them as you flee.
3.When a horse is fearful, never be directly in front of or behind, they won't see you in their panic. (limited vision directly in front of the horse anyway. Eyes on the side of the head thing)

4. Horses are safest when they can move in any direction. The more they are restricted the more they are fearful. Backing up is the least safe movement, so a limited movement to front and back is their weakest condition, as in a cave.

One of the time I fell off a horse, I realized was my fault. I was trying to open a gate while on horseback, I side stepped my horse between a trough(immovable) infront, a shed(immovable) to the side, and a ladder(unknown) behind, when the horses butt touched the ladder, it freaked jumped to the side and  I fell off. Three sides it couldn't go, with unknown behind. The reaction was quite obvious when I thought about it.

Horses are prey animals, their whole survival instinct is based on everything in the world is out to eat them unless proven otherwise. Wind, trees movement, flags, saddles, trailers, even a person carrying hay at them could inspire fear until they realize what it is.
Trailers are double tough, first a giant mouth to swallow them, then when inside the only way out if back, and nowhere to run forward or side if attacked.


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## MFreako

Don't know if someone asked this question already. Sorry if it's a repeat.

How much distance could a horse traverse in one day in a desert landscape? I mean a dry, cracked-earth, rocky desert, not the sandy type. In this instance, haste is of the essence, so waiting and traveling by night isn't a possibility. The only cargo would be the rider and a couple days' worth of food for both rider and horse.


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## CupofJoe

MFreako said:


> How much distance could a horse traverse in one day in a desert landscape? I mean a dry, cracked-earth, rocky desert, not the sandy type. In this instance, haste is of the essence, so waiting and traveling by night isn't a possibility. The only cargo would be the rider and a couple days' worth of food for both rider and horse.


I think that water would be the problem. Horses need a lot of water and they have to stand still to drink. 
You might find that you could only travel as little as 20-30 miles a day in the day... even less if the ground slows them up. 
That said you would get away with a little more if you literally rode the horse to death... but get that wrong and you're in the middle of the desert without transport and very limited water...


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## SeverinR

Just for clarity, I believe the blindspot in front of a horse is ten feet directly in front(between the eyes). It will turn its head if it sees you coming.

Normal water intake while grazing, 5 gallons per horse. A 50 gallon barrel would keep a horse alone enough water for grazing in a grassy field for ten days. Now desert heat would cause the horse to sweat, thus requiring more then usual. More along the line of 5 gallons twice or even three times a day.  A man might be able to drink urine but I am not sure a horse would. Even more disgusting if you had a container the horse would probably put out 5 gallons of urine at a time, although I don't know if drinking it will be healthy for a human.  
So daily 15 gallons of water and 3 pounds of hay would be required. 105 gallons of water a week, 21 pounds of hay.  One might wonder why would you haul grass with a horse. But the horse must keep its bowels moving or it will die, a steady supply of fiber is a must. The desert will probably not yeild enough to satisfy a horse. If you go light on water or hay, the horse will colic and die, as sure as if you stopped giving water at all.

The content of horse manure is so fiberous, I would prefer to walk in it all day, rather then step in an omnivoure or carnivoure crap once. (and I have)


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## Malik

I have only a passing familiarity with horses but desert warfare is my forte in the military.

You're better off on foot in the desert than with a horse. Camels are used in the desert because horses don't do well. If horses did well in the desert, more people who live in the desert would use them.

_EDIT: Don't get me wrong; there are horses in the desert. We conquered the American desert on horseback, and horses run free in the high desert of Nevada, but generally in our "deserts" there is access to water. It's just hard to find unless you know where to look -- canyons, springs, dug wells, etc. There is also, as mentioned, very little for horses to eat in most deserts. Camels can eat things that wouldn't even cross your mind as edible. I've seen camels eating acacia, thorns and all. They browse like goats._

The trick to making it through the desert is conservation of energy, and horses don't do that. Camels, conversely, saunter around like they're stoned all the time; they do everything in slow-motion and don't waste any energy. The people who live out there are alarmingly similar in that regard. You can't train a horse to slow down; they'll overheat and crash out there without very careful management. 

I once crossed 94 miles of volcanic badlands in Africa in five days with a 12-man team, on foot, under tactical conditions, leading camels carrying jerrycans of water and a few small goats to eat along the way. We rationed 12 liters of water per day per man, hit a resupply cache halfway through, and even so none of us were in shape to fight when we reached the objective. I lost 30 lbs. and all my toenails fell off. This was, factoring humidity, in the hottest inhabited area on Earth.

A horse weighs five times what I do, so 15 gallons a day, I think, is reasonable. 

A 55-gallon drum of water weighs a little over 450 lbs. So a week's worth of water for a horse in the desert would be nearly a thousand pounds of water. Your horse would need his own horse and cart just to haul his water. And who's going to haul the carthorse's water? 

One thing we noticed was that the men who live out there are built like high-school marathon runners. You can't carry enough water on your own to get through more than a day or two out there unless you're acclimated and light on your feet -- and not doing much other than walking really slowly. You can burn up a quart of water just repelling a short attack with a rifle. 

I would rather stash everything except my hat, my water, and primary weapon and go on foot than take my horse. Especially if it was a horse I liked. Failing that, I'd lead a horse in the desert if I absolutely had to, but first I'd be damned sure about my maps because you only get one shot at hitting your objective. You don't hit a watering hole, a cache, or the evil sorcerer's fortress of solitude on schedule, you die.

Ideally, I'd take a whole massive caravan, hire expert guides, and rely on economies of scale. It would be a logistical nightmare but it could be done. The best way to cross the desert is with an army around you.

BTW, one use for horse urine would be to hydrate a pit still if you had some material to make one. Waxed canvas, maybe? You'd still need to catch it in a bucket or something and then carry that with you; five gallons weighs over 40 lbs. 40 lbs. of fragrantly-evaporating horse piss is just about at the bottom of my list of things to carry through the desert.


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## SeverinR

Thinking about it:
the average bale of hay weighs between 40-70 lbs, that would be a weeks worth of hay, so I was a little light.  So the weekly needs of a horse would be 950-975 lbs per horse in the desert. They aren't going to travel too far carrying that. Thats equal to 3-4, maybe even 5 people on their back in the heat. That weight does not include the rider.

the blind spot 10ft would be the extreme, horse head high so their muzzle is in the way. Nose down would probably be three to five feet. But in 4h you want the kids to be safe, and a 3 ft child might be in the blindspot at 10 ft.

Horse urine when properly hydrated stinks, I would hate to have to consider drinking it in concentrate. From the normal appearance it might be worse then drinking nothing. So don't use my suggestion as a "survival tip."


Remember those we lost:
9-11-01 & 9-11-12


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## Malik

I am not proud to say this, but I have drunk distilled water made from urinating on acacia branches in a solar still and covering it overnight (you set the catchment atop the leaves, and then the moisture in the leaves -- and the urine -- collects on the still cover and runs down into the catchment).

It is beyond horrible. 

It is actually best if you leave it in your mouth and let it soak into your tissues -- so that you at least _feel_ less thirsty -- than if you drink it. It tastes that bad. If you swallow it, you risk vomiting it back up, and that will dehydrate you further.


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## Valentinator

I am not sure if anybody asked this question before. How do horses express emotions? I'm looking for the visual clues of fear, joy, etc.


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## CupofJoe

Valentinator said:


> I am not sure if anybody asked this question before. How do horses express emotions? I'm looking for the visual clues of fear, joy, etc.


I know they do. I've seen fear/aggression. There are others because people who know more than me have said so but don't ask me what they are...
This website "A Complete Guide On How To Draw Horses" does show you what they may look like, but again I cannot vouch for their accuracy...


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