# Help on world building



## Solomon Tan (May 1, 2012)

Hello, everyone! 

It's been a hectic year for me and finally I got some spare time to sit down and start writing my book. Currently, I'm planning on systematically write my story, with the help of a build up world. 

However, I just want to ask how do you people build your world? In terms of details, how deep do you go? 

I have a rough idea of how the story will unfold, the plots and twists within, and the relationships with different cultures and even characters. Just not detailed yet. 

So, do you simply build a world, physical world with the landscape, and trees and etc? 

Do you bring in the history? Like the history of how the world is created? This part I seriously don't feel like doing.. 

So, how do you do it? Can share with me and even help me?


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## Queshire (May 1, 2012)

I find that there tends to be two proccesses, world first and plot first. With plot first you start with the plot of the story any world building is done specifically for how that world building supports the plot. Then there is world first where you start with designing the world, putting as much thought and work into the world as you want, and then once you have the world you think up a plot that fits in the world.

I find plot first to be more effective for actually writing, but it can be boring at times, with world first there's the fun of world building but you might get caught up building the world and never get around to actually writing. I suppose the ideal approach would be a mix.

I can only say do what you find is best for you.


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## JCFarnham (May 1, 2012)

_How deep do you go?_

Deep enough to support a conflict and therefore the story.

This doesn't mean I'm advocating minimalist building on the fly (aka when writing the book), and neither does it mean I'm advocation working through everything in minute, painstaking detail. I worldbuild to a point where a conflict can comfortable exist within the setting. Then I get writing. *Whatever* that means at the end of the day. Certain stories require certain amounts of world building you know?

Naturally, I may need more detail as I go. 

Considering the setting informs the characters who in turn inform the kind of stories you can tell, I don't believe each thing can be separated effectively. You'll need some amount of worldbuilding in setting up your premise, just as having a story in mind would help enormously to pin down exactly what you need to work out in detail


I guess this method of mine is the combination that Queshire is talking about, both plot and world come to me at a similar time, because they work and build off each other. Yeah?


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## Solomon Tan (May 1, 2012)

Thank you for the advice.. One thing though I currently encountered is that.. I want to make my story full of twists. Well, these twists and turns of the plots, which is already in my mind, has to do with like many many years ago, that kind of thing. some demon god got defeated and now trying to raise up, and some stuffs here and there.. 

So, I am contemplating if I should just say, "A powerful, evil demon god bound for total destruction was sealed by ancient magic and was buried deep in the land. and that's it.. or I should also try to build a world that explains how this demons come into the world.. kind of thing. like a history.. of course this part might not be in the story itself.. or only a short explanation...


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## Ankari (May 1, 2012)

Of the two paths, I have chosen to tread the world building first.  It helps me understand each racial, national, religious or factional motive.  This generates conflicts which generates stories.  In a way, its structured brainstorming.  I do a lot of the behind-the-scene world building as well, stuff that the reader may never read but will add depth to your world and to your character.  It also generates a lot of mystery that let's the imagination of the reader run wild.  Who once dwelt in the ruins your hero took refuge in?  When and who painted the caves that an antagonist uses for his lair.  Those are interesting things elements that add flavor to your story.


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## Devor (May 1, 2012)

1 - Whatever that first concept is, a character or a type of magic or a plot event.
2 - What do I need for these ideas to work?  What's the buildup/resolution for this concept?
3 - How many characters are there now?  How many do I need?  What do I need to do each character justice?  Home towns?  Supporting characters?  Etc.
4 - Okay, now how much has been dictated just to pull off the concept, and what are the gaps that are left for me to choose?

From there . . . Ecology, Magic, Government, Culture and Warfare.  With a doodle of a map.  At least think about each topic, but only go just a little farther with each than you need and scale back later.  And try to make connections between all your elements.


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## Hans (May 1, 2012)

Solomon Tan said:


> However, I just want to ask how do you people build your world? In terms of details, how deep do you go?


Since worldbuilding is a hobby of mine much deeper than it is needed for any story. I do not advocate that, especially for "single story worlds".



> Do you bring in the history? Like the history of how the world is created? This part I seriously don't feel like doing..


You don't have to. A little history is good to give your people some traditions to follow. Or to generate a feeling of depth.
A generation myth also can be a good thing. Maybe two and the characters can argue about the "truth" in them. But you don't have to know how the world was created.



> So, I am contemplating if I should just say, "A powerful, evil demon god bound for total destruction was sealed by ancient magic and was buried deep in the land. and that's it.. or I should also try to build a world that explains how this demons come into the world.. kind of thing. like a history.. of course this part might not be in the story itself.. or only a short explanation...


It would be interesting to know why this demon wants to conquer and destroy the world. Things can be very different depending on it's motivation.
How they come into the world might give hints on how to overcome them.

Honestly, there are lots of "evil enemy wants to destroy everything, hero wanted to defeat them" stories. For this line alone I would not pick up a book. Some more background can help a lot to deviate from this standard plot, even if it basically remains the same.


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## JCFarnham (May 1, 2012)

I could have made it clearer in my first post.. hmmm

Everything involved should work together. The problem with doing one thing first then the other is you could inadvertently add in a bias, ie, a world that doesn't support the plot or a plot with no obvious foundation. Then again how is it possible to do two things at once?

I usually follow the house metaphor in that sense, in which the house and all associated with it is the novel. You need foundations, that's your worldbuilding, but unless you build anything on that foundation you still don't have a house. OR and house without foundations? Well, its difficult to add those in? (that's where it breaks down, but you should see what I mean.)

What about a character who doesn't have any grounding in the worlds collective history? Well to flip that on it's head, how does a collective history work with out the characters to exemplify it, build upon it, or live it?

Where ever possible and whatever you want to start with, as long as you make sure everything supports everything else (like that extended house metaphor) you're golden


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## Caged Maiden (May 1, 2012)

Personally, I think that a story which begins with ancient history can get very uninteresting very quickly.  What if you opened with a character in a situation of minor conflict (an invading army slaying villagers and peasants fleeing, a mage who tampers with powerful magic he shouldn't, a gypsy caravan who stumble upon an ancient ruin in the forest) something which can then link into the history without it being all thrown into a prologue?

It's nice if a reader gets to learn the history as the character does.  

Also, paragraphs upon paragraphs about the setting are redundant and uninteresting.  As a reader, I don't need to hear more than a line about the trees, clouds, or even weather unless they are unusual.  If trees are swaying, I now know it's breezy, but I don't need to know anything else about the wind/ trees unless it's a freaking gale or the trees are impaling people and walking around.  When a world gets too detailed, people TEND (not saying You do) to want to put in all the details they have created, and it gets to be too much to want to read.

I'm all for charting out lineages, arranging a pantheon of detailed complex gods, or mapping out your world.  I have done all of those things to keep my consistency when I write.  But, would you be able to write a whole detailed cultural history and NOT include those details except in small doses?  I think this is my biggest argument for not detailing everything before you begin writing.  Yes, it's wonderful to use those details to breathe life into your culture and characters, but it gets hard to hold back sometimes.  I'd get a general outline and a list of a few very pertinent things you just have to have in there, and then let the writing determine what must be filled in later.

Hope some of that is helpful.


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## Solomon Tan (May 2, 2012)

So, from what I gathered, I should firstly, build a world first. Mapping out the terrains and landscape, with cities, villages and caves, mountains and etc.. Then, build a culture of the existing world.. like how different cities hated/love each other, and relationship with different races.. then see how my story can fix all these in?

Currently, I have a rough sketch of the map. Still adding things here and there.. I have a basic idea of what my story is telling.. Characters are pretty much there.. just trying to make them more 'human'.. in short, adding weaknesses to them.. 

what i left out was the god thing.. so I'll go and see what I can come out with and if possible post it out for all to see. 

One question to ask though.. I know it's good to get feedbacks and critics for my work, but who can I actually approach to get a good feedback? What I meant by good, is constructive feedbacks., that allows me to work on that area..


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## Devor (May 2, 2012)

Solomon Tan said:


> So, from what I gathered, I should firstly, build a world first. Mapping out the terrains and landscape, with cities, villages and caves, mountains and etc.. Then, build a culture of the existing world.. like how different cities hated/love each other, and relationship with different races.. then see how my story can fix all these in?



I think that's backwards.  Figure out your story, figure out how much of the world is necessary for your story, build the world to support your story, and then step back, see if the world - as necessary - has any gaps which might be useful for you to choose to fill in.

You want to rewrite your world to support your story, not the other way around.  Let's say you realize, halfway through your story, that the characters on their long journey just need a break to keep from falling apart.  So you create an ally who happens to be wherever it is that they are.  To support this story-need, you need to world-build a little, why is this ally here, who are they, what's their relationship with other nations the characters have encountered.  You need to reassess any impact this new society has on your world, your plot, and your story thus far.  You create tie-ins so that the reader feels, this isn't just happy coincidence to keep the group from falling apart, these people were here all along, it was inevitable that they would be encountered.  And if you dissect it enough, you will probably find a surprising role that they can play in developing or resolving the conflicts your character's face.

But that's what you should be thinking about first.  The story.  The role.  World-Build to support and connect the necessary elements, not just because you can.


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## Queshire (May 2, 2012)

again that's a matter of world first vs plot first, both are valid approaches and it is up to the individual writer to determine which to follow. There's no you should do this or you should do that. It's up to you to determine which path you want to follow.


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## Steerpike (May 2, 2012)

Devor said:


> I think that's backwards.  Figure out your story, figure out how much of the world is necessary for your story, build the world to support your story, and then step back, see if the world - as necessary - has any gaps which might be useful for you to choose to fill in.



I agree with Queshire that you can do it either way, but I prefer Devor's approach, above. I've seen plenty of people doing it the other way for whom world-building turns into a way of never having to write the story.


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## Devor (May 2, 2012)

Queshire said:


> again that's a matter of world first vs plot first, both are valid approaches and it is up to the individual writer to determine which to follow. There's no you should do this or you should do that. It's up to you to determine which path you want to follow.



The only thing is that you're building your world first, but then you get locked into a concept that's been created even though your story pacing really calls for something else.  Or you end up creating a slew of great concepts but end up struggling to force them into your story.  If you can avoid doing those two things, and genuinely put the story ahead of the pre-created world, then maybe.  But I'm still inclined to think your story and your world won't feel quite as smooth together, if that makes any sense.

((edit)) I don't mean to be absolute.  People do work differently, so maybe it works better for you to create the world and look for story-inspiration from it.  But as advice to newcomers, I just think there's more pitfalls with World-Building first, partially because I've fallen into them myself at times.  But also because the story itself is what's important to your novel, and thus, is what you should be focused on.


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## Hans (May 2, 2012)

Devor said:


> The only thing is that you're building your world first, but then you get locked into a concept that's been created even though your story pacing really calls for something else.  Or you end up creating a slew of great concepts but end up struggling to force them into your story.  If you can avoid doing those two things, and genuinely put the story ahead of the pre-created world, then maybe.  But I'm still inclined to think your story and your world won't feel quite as smooth together, if that makes any sense.


Are you saying it is not possible to write stories in the real world, because the rules of this world do not easily bend to fit your story concepts? Centuries of storytelling say otherwise.

My first world (I am not using it anymore) was primarily a role playing game world with at first no intention to write a story in it. Then I kept adding short stories after the world concepts where already fixed.
It worked and I still can't see anything wrong with that. (I did not use a RPG system that dictate things like the races, classes, whatever that had to be used.)


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## Devor (May 2, 2012)

Hans said:


> Are you saying it is not possible to write stories in the real world, because the rules of this world do not easily bend to fit your story concepts? Centuries of storytelling say otherwise.



Well, that's kind of a big stretch from what I actually said, and I hope you can see how that doesn't really follow.  In the real world, you wouldn't have your pre-created "darlings" to force into the story, and the real world is often more complex and resourceful, with simpler plots, than the fantasy worlds people come up with.  I would really hope we could put aside the dramatic mischaracterizations and focus on making points that are useful to people.


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## Ghost (May 2, 2012)

It could still happen "in the real world." Mr. Author loves The Eagles and he's going to mention them in his novel, well, just because. Anybody can do that, whether it's a fantasy concept or not. Restraint is the key here.

I hear about folks who worldbuild and realize afterward they have no story to tell in that world. I've never understood that because worldbuilding doesn't turn off my storytelling tap. Story ideas still come. In my case, they work in tandem. I create Random Country and, while making up the details, hints of stories occur to me. It can go the other way, where I'll have fragments of a story, so I'll worldbuild to explore that. I take note of those ideas, but even without those notes I could come up with character-driven stories to fill my world.

Novels can also become unbalanced if the focus is on plot or characterization. For example, a person could jam the worldbuilding and characterization into their plot idea and the result is unbelievable characters in a poorly developed world. Another person could have great characters with authentic voices in a disconnected, vague world and a plot that meanders or flatlines. In my opinion, it's important to either balance all the elements or consciously work the imbalance in your favor.


Solomon Tan, this is only my perspective and my suggestions are given without knowing what you aim to achieve.

I don't think you should worry about trees and the history of the world unless they're relevant to the story or characters. You say you have a rough idea of the story you want to tell, and I think _that_ will dictate the sort of world you build. You can start by examining your god and seeing what his presence means for the world. You're allowed to be mysterious. It doesn't need pages of exposition detailing how this and that happened. If it's important to know this demon god's history in order to defeat him, you might need to explain how people know that history. That knowledge could be a part of their culture. Making it central to your worldbuilding effort isn't necessary unless it's also central to your novel.

As for mapping, terrain, intercity relations, the culture(s)--go as far as you need to go for those places to feel real to you. I don't think you need more than that. Are you happy with your rough sketches? Can you move on without feeling like you're missing something? If so, there's your answer.

I'd say the novel is the real test of whether the worldbuilding holds up. I'm not sure how useful criticism will be for you during this stage of the process.


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## King Raven Stark (May 2, 2012)

Well you defintley need some landscape to support the plot you like where the character lives, where their going, where they came from etc. I new to world building to so I started with the gods, the creation of the planet's lanscape and water, and slowly outlined and draft a history. What you should really do is study other fantasy writers who are known for creating worlds like Tolkien, George Martin, and the Warhammer.


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## shangrila (May 3, 2012)

I'm a plot first writer, since that is what will sell your book more than a pretty world. That said, you have to remember that writing a book can take many drafts and unless you're the greatest writer that ever lived, you'll need at least more than one. So, write your first draft and make the world up as you go, then flesh it out with what you've already come up with before going onto your second draft. That's what I'm doing, anyway.


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## SeverinR (May 3, 2012)

I create my world like Devor says.
But when looking into world building sites, they do say some people build mega to minor. (Vast universe down to floor plans to a home, rather then home plans up to the universe.)

If you want to create a world then write a book about what goes on in it, this would seem right. But if you write a book that exists in the world you create what you need at the moment.  When telling a story of a lonely orphan in a cold medievil town, does the reader really care that your world has ten continents and fifteen seas and oceans? That the universe has three life supporting planets?

I world build as I need, or as a way to inspire myself to keep writing in hard times.  I have yet to write about the jungle elves, but I have a basic draft of the town, and how it runs.


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## Solomon Tan (May 3, 2012)

Thank you, Devor. 

I personally feel that I'm also a person who do the story path first, then build the world. 

So, summarize a bit.. I just do my story.. Write about the story, put in the things that comes to my mind, and if I need to build a world.. say, how does the invading army attack the city that the main character is in, then I build that part out, like the relationship and culture, and where they came from and etc.. 

Then for the 'creatures' inside the story, do you guys do the same? Like you want a monster that kidnap a princess for the main character or team to rescue, then you build that monster?


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## zizban (May 3, 2012)

I generally have an idea of how the world and relevant cultures are structured before I begin that way I'm not totally clueless when I start.


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## Hans (May 3, 2012)

Devor said:


> Well, that's kind of a big stretch from what I actually said, and I hope you can see how that doesn't really follow.


Of course it was a big exaggeration since no one could possibly try to keep stories out of the real world.

My approach is crating the world first. I know I have a lot of material ("darlings") which I can not use in a given story. If I want to include them I can always write an other story where these things are important. Set in the same world. No need to force anything into one story.
And if I want to have lots of different things in the story there is for example the possibility of a "Marco Polo" type story.

I actually like the simple plots, that don't change the big politics. Perfectly fine to do them in a fantasy world.
Even in a very predesigned world every story will add further details. That is also true for real world authors, they have to invent things. Unless they are writing purely biographic.


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## Solomon Tan (May 3, 2012)

I think it really depends on how you like to write your story.. For me, I like complicated, big scale plots kind of storylines.. I enjoyed George Martin works on Song of Fire and Ice, but I don't think I will want to write something like that. but political strife seems quite a nice way to add in some conflicts between people and stir certain motivations.. 

As for myself, I think I'm taking a huge bite here with a big project.. Not sure as a beginner, can I tell a good story from what I wanted to write though.. 

Just wondering, if I build up a world. A complete world full of details and etc.. and I can use that as a source of other stories, that's possible as well right?


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## Ankari (May 4, 2012)

> Just wondering, if I build up a world. A complete world full of details and etc.. and I can use that as a source of other stories, that's possible as well right?



Sure is.  That's my entire plan.  Build a world, recognize the conflicts I've created, then write about them.  I am currently (finally started my WIP today!) working on a story set in the past of my world.  To build a world and then to build a history of that world gives you layers upon layers from which to pull your story or stories from.


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## Hans (May 4, 2012)

Solomon Tan said:


> Just wondering, if I build up a world. A complete world full of details and etc.. and I can use that as a source of other stories, that's possible as well right?


Absolutely. You can put as many stories as you want in one world. Be the world as large as a galaxy or just one little town. There is no limit on the number of possible stories.

If you need an example take Hyboria from Robert E. Howard. Howard concentrated on one character, Conan, but wrote some very different stories in different parts of the world. There is no reason why you should not be able to do that. Even with different characters.


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## Solomon Tan (May 5, 2012)

I have a plan actually. I am working on a big project which i always wanted to work on. Like an epic fantasy setting story. But at the same time, I want to write in short stories for some historical events and characters, decision that they made and etc.. which somehow link to this main story.. So in a way, if you read only the big project, you get an idea of what is happening, but to know further, there are other stories as well..


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## Caliburn (May 6, 2012)

Hey Solomon I am doing pretty much exactly the same thing as you. Been working on several different projects over the years, and I could never figure out what ideas to _exclude_ from a given project, so recently I just threw EVERYTHING in one, vast, never-ending project xD

And I have the same problem as you. Sketches of ideas with scant details. 

My current solution is to actually_ keep things vague_--to not nail anything down yet, especially when it comes to creation myths etc. If you think about it, the people of your world don't really know how their universe was created, so perhaps you don't need to have the whole truth either? 
I have found that I keep returning to certain core ideas in all my projects, and those things I consider to be reliable enough to build on. Everything else is mutable, however, and I have an _anything-goes policy_ when it comes to ideas. If I like something, it goes into my setting, whether its traditional fantasy, science fiction or modern fantasy. I have the project split into major past, present and future eras so if an idea doesn't work in one era it will usually fit in another. I think its helpful not to corner myself and let the things that need to be fixed crystallise over time.

At some point I want to try writing random short stories to see where they take me, but I have difficultly with narrative so I am attending writer's groups/courses to build up my confidence with that. If you are anything like me, you might feel a lot more confident with the "bigger picture" stuff than the nitty-gritty narratives. You might have a strong _desire_ to be good at narrative, but it might not come as easily as the more conceptual work. Good luck


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## Solomon Tan (May 6, 2012)

To Caliburn, Yeah, I do agree with you. I have the same problem with you.. In my mind, I have this large project to undertake and given my skill in the language of English and putting it into paragraphs of words.. it's not easy. I don't believe in giving up though, so I'll press on and do my best. One day, I'll finish my story somehow! haha. 

Short stories are nice too. So, are you planning to combine all your stories into one? Or still separate them?


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## Caliburn (May 6, 2012)

For the short stories, I have no idea, but leaving it open makes it more exciting for me. I might be exploring the lives of two different characters and then chance upon some way to have their stories coincide 
Its just a way of opening up all the ideas I've come up with in the past so I can rummage through and pick out whatever I feel like using at the time. Makes it much easier for me to come with ideas for short stories, and I have a whole stable of characters ready to inject into a story at a moment's notice. Also, certain themes tend to recur throughout my work: for example magic is almost always a chaotic, unstable and mutative force, and is usually the cause of monsters. Do you have any recurring themes in your work? Ideas you find yourself particularly fond of?


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## Chekaman (May 11, 2012)

Bathland (crap name, I know) was formed from individual imaginary games, and Roquatirrinn and Valermoore were formed from stories based in them.


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## ThinkerX (May 12, 2012)

I've done it both ways.

My 'primary world' came about after reading a lot of old D&D books about campaigning in a sort of 'Fantasy Europe'.  I took those source books - describing everything from 'Fantasy Rome and Greece' to the age of the Vikings, combined them altogethe, and made up my own mangled map, with attached history (also partly cribbed and mangled from the real world), along with notes on everything from the army to the ruling families.  I came up with the world, and then started writing stories set in that world. 

With 'Falling Towers', I went the other route: when I started writing that tale I only knew a very few things about the world (never did have an actual map) and after the comments here, I can see that a lot of the notes I was coming up with on the fly got worked into the writing.  

The other thing I've done is to combine worlds: at one point I had something like half a dozen distinct fantasy worlds.  Then I started looking at the maps and the stories and what was required to make them work, and I realized - well, this entire story setting here - this entire 'world' if you will - can be merged with this other world here.  Different hemispheres, different continents, that sort of thing.  Doing that reduced the number of worlds I did have down to two, and greatly increased what I 'knew' about those worlds.


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## Catherine (May 13, 2012)

Solomon Tan said:


> Thank you for the advice.. One thing though I currently encountered is that.. I want to make my story full of twists. Well, these twists and turns of the plots, which is already in my mind, has to do with like many many years ago, that kind of thing. some demon god got defeated and now trying to raise up, and some stuffs here and there..
> 
> So, I am contemplating if I should just say, "A powerful, evil demon god bound for total destruction was sealed by ancient magic and was buried deep in the land. and that's it.. or I should also try to build a world that explains how this demons come into the world.. kind of thing. like a history.. of course this part might not be in the story itself.. or only a short explanation...



Sounds more like a back story. I have a similar situation (not including any demon gods though) and I have hinted at it in the earlier chapters - I may write a spin-off or a short story later on. The point is although this is a back story, the settings and locations will still be the same as in the modern timeframe, therefore it doesn't change the world-building aspect. When creating your world you need to take into account it's history or it won't seem real to the reader. Whether you have a clear account written down or not, you still need to have a clear picture in your mind's eye, or it won't make sense and it will come across in your work. Perhaps write a short story so you have a reference? Hope this helps


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