# Non-fatal wounds



## skip.knox (Dec 17, 2018)

I sort of want to stab my ogre in the back, but I don't want him to die.

Context: our heroes fleeing the enemy. They will get to a point of safety and be able to slam the door (figuratively) on the enemy, so it's only a few moments, a couple of minutes at most, that the ogre needs to stay wounded. The enemy has spears. My ogres are 7-8' tall. 

What I picture: A spear is thrown and hits the ogre. Since he's fleeing, it's somewhere on the back side. Since he''s fleeing (_supra_), he isn't hit in the legs, which leaves butt or back. I was picturing upper back, but arteries and suchlike vulnerabilities show up in the darnedest places. I was picturing my other hero seeing the spear--something javelin-size, three or four feet long, maybe. It would probably waggle about as the ogre runs.

Once through, and safe, we are a long way from a doctor. Leave it in or take it out?

From such practical considerations are dramatic narratives constructed.


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## Orc Knight (Dec 17, 2018)

Okay, so they're seven to eight foot tall. Are they as tough as many fantasy ogres? Quick regeneration or an ability to ignore pain or enough extra padding to keep them from really noticing? I've always taken ogres as the sorts to which a spear in, well, near anywhere was a minor hinderance at best.


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## skip.knox (Dec 17, 2018)

I picture them as a bit tougher, though not so much as you describe. I honestly had not come up with a THAC0 for them. <g> Maybe cowhide tough. Even snakeskin or alligator skin tough, but leave that aside for the moment. I was mostly wanting to stay away from "the spear protruded from just under the shoulder blade" only to have someone yell because that's exactly where the Yegads Artery is located and he'd be dead in thirty seconds.

That sort of thing.


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## CupofJoe (Dec 18, 2018)

A glancing blow across the shoulder blade from the spear blade? Nothing all that deep so it could be sealed or sewn up quickly. There could be a lot of blood and probably painful too. If you need the visual, it could slice through the skin and get stuck between the different layer above the muscles.


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## skip.knox (Dec 18, 2018)

I was picturing it sticking there until we get to safety. Doesn't have to. Heck, he doesn't really even need to get hurt, but I thought it would add a little spice to being chased through an aethereal void by duergar.


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## Night Gardener (Dec 18, 2018)

Who's throwing the weapon? A human? An ogre? 

Depending on trajectory, and throwing strength, a 6 foot man throwing a spear to try and hit an ogre would be aiming higher to hit a center mass on a 7 to 8 foot tall ogre. A spear hitting a body at a slight or *upward* trajectory would probably be a glancing blow, and likely fall out. 

A spear thrown high into the air, with the weight of the spear acting under momentum from the initial throw velocity and acted upon by gravity (entering at a *downward* angle into the body) would likely be a far more serious wound. 

It's the difference between throwing darts at a board *in the ceiling* of a pub vs. Throwing lawn darts designed to go up into the air and stick a landing, if that helps. The little pub dart might stick at that upward angle, but might also fall out under of its own weight. 

Where a spear should land on the ogre, well any place is bad enough. I'm assuming there's some torso and arm movement in the running stride of an ogre. This slight twisting of the plane of the target would allow for some very nasty glancing through-shots off the ribs into the backside of the upper arm.  

And, it would depend on the shape of the spear head how best to remove it. Like removing a barbed vs. unbarbed fishing hook from a fish. My vote would be to figure out depth of penetration to the other side. If it were 3/4 or more of the way to the other side, push it through (trim and clean the spear handle first). If it were not in more than half way, make incisions in the tissue to release the spear back through entry (incisions would theoretically heal better than jagged tearing).

Factors like clothing, armor, etc. will also influence the entry point of a thrown spear.


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## ScaryMJDiamcreep (Dec 18, 2018)

From what I've seen, it seems that it would be better to leave the spear in the wound until you can get your ogre to a healer, unless the ogre has some kind of healing factor.

No clue about where to stab your ogre though.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 28, 2018)

Don’t think hide, although that’s useful, think... how much muscle does the javelin need to penetrate? If the ogre is a “hulk” or better yet for a visual, a bull in the ring, then you got something. So many things to consider when it comes to wounds... is the javelin barbed? Is it dull or bladed (much easier to be lethal)? Even a lower back is survivable, for sure. Intestines and whatnot have a knack for slipping out of the way of points, which is why bladed weapons in penetration are more effective.


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## Chuck (Jan 22, 2019)

I am a paramedic in real life. I have seen many people get stabbed in the back and they are rarely fatal. 

Assuming a similar anatomy, the best place to have him hit would be in the upper back or shoulder. The lungs are wide in the lower chest, but come to a point near the top. If he were hit in the shoulder, you could have the spear lodge itself in the shoulder blade, which would result in a broken scapula (shoulder blade), or you could have the spear pierce just above the scapula, sliding over the bone, piercing the trapezius. The odds of hitting an artery is pretty low, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. The biggest concern if it hits him lower is if it hits the lungs. It is common for air to get into the space between the lungs and the ribs, causing the lung lung to collapse. If the orc is bigger, it is possible that the spear won't get past the muscle and bone, causing a simple flesh wound. 

As far as field treatment, we don't remove impaled objects in the field because the object can act like a bandage deep inside the wound, and removing it can cause additional damage on the way out. It is preferred to have it removed in surgery. The exceptions are when there are reasons why you would need to. If it causes problems with the airway, we will remove it. Also, if the object makes transporting the patient impossible, removing the object would be necessary. 

And you could always use the old standard of having his comrade cauterize the wound in the field.


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## skip.knox (Jan 22, 2019)

Thanks, Chuck. He's an ogre, not an orc, so he's plenty big. I'll definitely have them aim higher up. 

Your comment about cauterizing made me wonder about the logistics of that. Take any pre-modern battlefield. It takes a fairly hot fire to heat an iron to proper temperature. The pictures I've seen of cauterization (mainly 16htc and later) show the work being done indoors, with some sort of fireplace to heat the iron. 

I doubt we'd be working with campfires here. Ovens can be transported without too awfully much work, so I'm picturing the barber-surgeon sitting outside his tent with the oven cooking away, waiting for poor saps to be brought back from the fight. Nothing significant here; I just hadn't thought about how that would work.


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## Chuck (Jan 22, 2019)

You wouldn't need to heat the iron too hot. If it is glowing red, it is too hot and would cause more damage than good. 

Another thing to consider is the fact that infection is what kills most people.


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## skip.knox (Jan 23, 2019)

Knew that about infections. With pre-modern armies, add disease (dysentery, especially). But I didn't know about the heat of the iron. Thanks for that.


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## EMoon (Feb 5, 2019)

Wounds in fiction should have a specific purpose for both the character and the story arc, and then be chosen to fit that need.  Why does the ogre need to be wounded?  To establish that the enemy is really dangerous?  To establish that ogres are not too tough to be hurt?   Because the group needs to worry about the ogre?  Because they need a reason to be delayed in travel?   Because that ogre in particular will react to being wounded in a way that resonates through the story?   

Since the wounded character is an ogre, you can mess with the physiology to an extent, but that will need to be set up a little so the reader will quickly catch on.  "Ogres can be hurt badly only in one place" for example.  Or "If an spear pierces the ogre's tough hide, it was a magic spear....or it was coated with a particular poison that dissolves ogre hide."   So your ogre is speared in the back (good idea; more ways to NOT be killed with a spear in back than in front...unless you choose to make ogres really tough in front, but vulnerable in back.)   If a spear penetrates only a little way but hangs in the wound, that's going to be more painful as the ogre runs than if it hit and fell out.  A spear stuck in the ogre's back will be problem when he's shoving through the door his companions want to slam...that doggone spear hangs up in the door.  And if his back's hide is really tough, or it's stuck in a shoulder blade (if they have shoulder blades or any other bony "shield")  it's going to be hard to pull out.  That adds tension and excitement, and the ogre may object to more pain as his companions yank on it.   It's your ogre; you get to decide how thick the hide is, whether or not there's a tough gristle mass protecting the backbone (think wild boar)  or a bony shield like some dinosaurs.  But most of all, injuring the ogre must have a story purpose: must reveal character and advance the plot (including creating plot complications.)


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## psychotick (Feb 5, 2019)

Hi,

I can't see a spear waggling about as the ogre runs. To do that the spear would have to be all the way through the ogre's body and sticking out the other side - in which case it probably doesn't matter where you hit him - the wound will almost certainly kill him. If he's running and the spear's in his back and it's a non fatal wound, it'll likely fall out.

Cheers, Greg.


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