# Battlemages; Do you use them?



## shangrila (Feb 20, 2013)

Basically, as the title says.

And by battlemage, I mean a strong warrior who either uses offensive spells (like fireballs) or defensive spells to augment himself (like, say, a shield or making himself stronger).

I'm just curious because, after doing a playthrough of the 1st Dragon Age, I realised that I haven't seen many of these particular mages in novels. Usually, if they're mages, they're kind of weak.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Feb 20, 2013)

Actually, most of my warrior type characters have some kind of magical ability. I practically never write about muggles.

For that matter, I kinda dislike the convention of magicians basically being the fantasy equivalent of the stereotypical nerd, who's power comes entirely from studying old books and memorizing spells. Most of my mages are very physical. 

Hence, the line between warriors and mages is often a bit blurry in my stories.



shangrila said:


> I'm just curious because, after doing a playthrough of the 1st Dragon Age, I realised that I haven't seen many of these particular mages in novels. Usually, if they're mages, they're kind of weak.



This was probably originally a gaming convention, actually. RPGs like Dungeons & Dragons needed to balance the character archetypes, out of concern that if people were allowed to play warriors capable of casting spells, or wizards in heavy armor carrying swords, nobody would bother playing a normal warrior or wizard. Things have gotten a bit more advanced since then, but the archetypes remained. 

That said, I think I've read more books that does have this type of character than not - David Edding's Belagarion and Spearhawk books, the Wheel of Time, etc. I dunno, maybe that was just the style at the time I got heavily into fantasy.


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## Ireth (Feb 20, 2013)

I have one mage who could be called such -- he uses music to direct his magic, and can basically perform any kind of spell as long as he has the right words, the right focus, and enough energy. He has used his powers for both offense and defense a number of times. He's also been a martial artist since long before he even knew about mages, much less received his powers.


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## wordwalker (Feb 20, 2013)

I'd say the key _is_ gaming's "fireballs, not swords" tradition, plus the older traditions that a wizard was either someone too cunning to need to fight himself or would just suit up and fight like a swordsman. (The ones who did that were probably quite good at it in their own right, like Gandalf, and some had magic weapons or "demonic strength.")

So most worlds today are either the kind of high-magic that use fireball wizards as the standard, or are lower-magic or subtler-magic and minimize magic in battle at all. Yes there are a lot of variations on the former, but they're still about types of direct spells in a battle; the kind of "battle-mage" who draws physical power directly from magic doesn't show up as much, maybe because it's a complex mix of ideas that takes time to spell out (how's it different from real skill, is he stronger but runs out of energy, what?).

Plus, magic that comes that close to creating fighting ability seems like cheating the warriors of their own part. As a serious Dragon Age fan, I can tell you it's a bit cheesy when my mage looks up from that training crystal and tells Ser Alister, "Alright, now _I'll_ take that big-ol' Juggernaut Armor you've been training for two levels just to walk in."


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## Telcontar (Feb 20, 2013)

You could probably say that all of the wizards in Twixt Heaven and Hell fit the definition of a battlemage. The main character is very physically fit, wears armor, and carries a sword - however, he never uses it. Melee combat is vastly inferior to his own abilities, so it'd just be a waste of his time. It is mentioned that he has had some basic training with a blade but is no match for a real warrior.


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## Mindfire (Feb 20, 2013)

By your definition, all of my magic users are "battlemages". All of my magic disciplines are combat-applicable, and 3 of them were created with combat as a main or major focus. There are in-world reasons for this of course.


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## wordwalker (Feb 20, 2013)

The trick is: how much is someone a Warrior-Plus (fighter with a few useful spells he can mix in) or moving into being a Fighter/Mage (distinctly trained in both, probably not the equal of either specialist) or a pure Battle Caster (attack spells but used to fighting at a distance, without the hardiness of a warrior). Or, who's an Enchanted Warrior (Dragon Age-esque channeling power directly into warriorlike skills).


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## gowph3ar (Feb 20, 2013)

in The Wheel of Time the main character rand can use magic but masters the sword anyways and once he starts the Black Tower he makes all of his Ashaman (Male channelers) learn how to fight with a sword


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## Sheilawisz (Feb 20, 2013)

All of my Mages can deliver destructive attacks and blasts of many kinds, also counting with defenses that can take on and resist even their own terrible magical powers.

They have magical swords as well, so by that definition they would be battlemages. However, not all of them are trained specifically for battle... only those that belong to their Military forces receive a special training to face the harsh conditions that are found in battle against other Mages, so those would be the only true battlemages in my worlds.

In my _Joan of England_ trilogy, the young girls that are trained as Mages are part of a military-style organization that is more similar to an army than to a school, so yes: They could be regarded as 100% battlemages =)


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## mbartelsm (Feb 20, 2013)

Miagic is universal and soldiers, in most parts, are required to control two or more elements in order to sign up for duty. They must also train for about a year with the same weapon and armor so that they may become "one" with these objects and prevent magic from affecting them (ie: crushing a person's armor with metal control with the person still wearing it). Most soldiers learn to control metal to alter their weapons and repair their armors on the go, they also like to learn to control fire for offensive purposes. Only a small faction learns to control lightning (plasma and electricity) even though it is very powerful, because of it's difficulty.

Most soldiers still use armor and swords though, for close combat battles where powerful spells can be dangerous.

So yeah, I use plenty of battlemages, they make the battlefield interesting.


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## Mindfire (Feb 20, 2013)

mbartelsm said:


> Miagic is universal and soldiers, in most parts, are required to control two or more elements in order to sign up for duty. They must also train for about a year with the same weapon and armor so that they may become "one" with these objects and prevent magic from affecting them (ie: crushing a person's armor with metal control with the person still wearing it). Most soldiers learn to control metal to alter their weapons and repair their armors on the go, they also like to learn to control fire for offensive purposes. Only a small faction learns to control lightning (plasma and electricity) even though it is very powerful, because of it's difficulty.
> 
> Most soldiers still use armor and swords though, for close combat battles where powerful spells can be dangerous.
> 
> So yeah, I use plenty of battlemages, they make the battlefield interesting.



Sounds kinda like Codex Alera.


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## Saigonnus (Feb 20, 2013)

I don't use battlemages per se... my race of Talutah Ooljee (Children of the Moon) though tend to be very physical with magic. The "warrior" types among them; and I do use the word loosely, have the use of "magic"; though not nearly to the same extent as the "druids" do. They can augment their strength, slow enemies, enchant their weapons (typically staves) to ward off a variety of attacks. Generally they are limited to "passive magic". The Druids can do all that, plus has attack magic, though generally centered around natural things. I have a battle scene in which one of my MCs with help from some other druids is defending a clearing. She summons up the very grasses to entangle her enemies, uses the density of water as a blanket that slows others' movements, summons a stone golem and since she's a transmuter on top of being a druid uses air energy from high above and forms it into frozen cubes that are "thrown" at targets (she got the inspiration from hail). Once imbedded in the skin, she causes them to explode, sending chunks of flesh everywhere.


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## ThinkerX (Feb 21, 2013)

Most of my mages are wimps, magically speaking.  The primary nation of my world recruited and trained a thousand plus of magically talented people for a war against a nation with demons at its disposal.  Said recruits varied from as young as eight or ten to as old as eighty.  Both males and females were recruited.

Most were trained in sword and bow, though their skill level varied quite a bit.

Again, spell wise, not that powerful.  Many had only a limited spell range, due to hasty training - they were taught so many short cuts for offensive spells it hampered their ability to learn other magics.

Offensive magic...most were taught spells that can trip people (throw them off balance, knock them to the ground), disorient (confusion effect), and a sort of weak grenade level fireball type spell...depending on what they showed a knack for at the outset.

They were drilledl in basic spells to detect, protect, and (if powerful enough) banish demons, with varying success.  

Scrying magic and healing spells were a biggie.

Most didn't survive the war.


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## shangrila (Feb 21, 2013)

It's good to see it was just a general ignorance on my part. I'd considered doing one myself but, honestly, I worried if they'd end up being overpowered and that's why they weren't used much.


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## wordwalker (Feb 21, 2013)

They can be as powerful as you want, if you make it clear that's what they are and the world makes sense for that. How strong a magical bolt --or explosion-- can they shoot, and/or how good are they at illusions and "freeze a moment while I stab you"? Are they like some game wizards that can only do that a few times a day (or like Gandalf, who I've always thought could do plenty a few times a _month_)? How fast are the spells, so how dangerous is it for a warrior to see them coming? How intensive is magical training, so how much time do they have to learn to wear armor and fend off enemies who get too close?

And, how _many_ mages are there in the world, at what power level? Is magic considered weak, or a major arm of the military, or is the MC the first person in generations to have magic that can affect a battle?


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## Anders Ã„mting (Feb 21, 2013)

shangrila said:


> It's good to see it was just a general ignorance on my part. I'd considered doing one myself but, honestly, I worried if they'd end up being overpowered and that's why they weren't used much.



"Overpowered" is more a matter of your antagonists being too weak rather than your protagonist being too strong. The important thing is that your hero has something to struggle against. As a general rule of thumb, don't make your hero stronger than the villain. At least not until the actual endgame.

Also, it's not like your character has to start out knowing magic - he can always pick it up along the way.


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## Mindfire (Feb 21, 2013)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> "Overpowered" is more a matter of your antagonists being too weak rather than your protagonist being too strong. The important thing is that your hero has something to struggle against. As a general rule of thumb, don't make your hero stronger than the villain. At least not until the actual endgame.
> 
> Also, it's not like your character has to start out knowing magic - he can always pick it up along the way.



And remember that whenever one side in a war gets a hold of superior weapons, in this case magic, an arms race nearly always ensues. There is a counter for every strategy after all.


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## Sea of Stars (Feb 21, 2013)

It depend a lot on the style of magic, if you have to poor over ancient tome in dimly lit libraries for years to learn magic, being a competent swordsman is going to be more difficult.  If it is a natural talent, then being well trained in weapons as well as using magic makes more sense.


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## crash (Feb 22, 2013)

No. My magic practitioners are more like shaman or Buddhist style monks, all of whom have really pushed themselves physically, mentally and spiritually to the brink of death to achieve their powers. Even then, most of their powers are aimed at healing and spiritual enlightenment, not combat (yeah, I know, I sound like a hippie, but that's how my magic system rolls).


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## Feo Takahari (Feb 22, 2013)

To build on Sea of Stars' comment, I think the easiest type of magic to incorporate into combat sequences is magic-as-tool (e.g. magic wands or crystals that anyone can use.) Magic-as-innate-power is a little harder (unless all characters have a power--which, to be fair, is the case in some settings), and magic-as-training is a lot harder (_The Order of the Stick_ postulates that combat magic would die out entirely if it was far harder to learn than fighting with weapons and wasn't significantly more effective.)


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## Queshire (Feb 23, 2013)

Originally in my world no one can directly use magic. Magic could only be manipulated through the use of magi-tech devices. In the upper world, a small bottle-civilization either located in the upper atmosphere, a space station, or on the moon (I haven't decided which yet) it's still like that since they are a remnant of the pre-apocalypse civilization.

In the lower world, due to being exposed to a high amount of magical radiation for centuries, just about everyone has mutated to be able to absorb, store, and process magical energy as spells. This includes the warriors who use magic to reinforce and strengthen themselves and their body. There's also more traditional mages who throw fireballs and stuff. Finally, those that would be considered traditional battlemages that combine both the internalizing of magic of warriors and the externalizing of magic of the mages exist, but due to their split focus they aren't as powerful in either discipline as a specialist.


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## Addison (Feb 23, 2013)

I use a multitude of magical practices, Battle Mages among them. I don't know if I'll call them something different but for now it's battle mages. And, as battle mages usually go into military, law enforcement or other such areas they are in ranks based on their strongest magic. Those who are better with shields go in the field and help protect their comrades or set shields around vehicles and such. Those with the greater offensive powers, fireballs, making themselves strong as an ape etc, are in the field. Although those who throw things like fire are either in a plane or behind lines giving cover fire for the ape-fighting types.


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## Zero Angel (Feb 23, 2013)

I have tons of battlemages. The question comes down to focus I guess. Neither training to fight effectively with weapons nor training to fight effectively with magick is something that can be done in a day, so you frequently have people that are very good at this or that, but not both. Still, in WotA, magick is something that is ingrained in almost every person of every race, so almost everyone at least complements their martial prowess with magick flavor.


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## mbartelsm (Feb 25, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> Sounds kinda like Codex Alera.


Must check it out then


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## S.T. Ockenner (May 20, 2020)

shangrila said:


> Basically, as the title says.
> 
> And by battlemage, I mean a strong warrior who either uses offensive spells (like fireballs) or defensive spells to augment himself (like, say, a shield or making himself stronger).
> 
> I'm just curious because, after doing a playthrough of the 1st Dragon Age, I realised that I haven't seen many of these particular mages in novels. Usually, if they're mages, they're kind of weak.


Actually, Dragon Age does have battlemages,two types: Arcane Warrior and  Knight Enchanter. That may not be pertinent to the question att hand, but I just felt it should be mentioned.


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## Chuck (May 28, 2020)

The issue I would have with a mage/warrior would be how armor and magic affect each other. If someone is wearing plate armor, a fireball or lightning bolt would conduct through the armor and hurt the caster. Also, heavy armor would limit fine movement, so if casting requires intricate hand movements, that would slow down the casting. 

I like the idea of using magic to enhance the warrior. He casts a spell to give his sword additional damage. Another spell strengthens his armor. Occasionally he might cast a force bolt, hitting his victim like a battering ram.


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## Angry Briar Rabbit (May 29, 2020)

If a character is going to be GREAT at welding a sword, then that is all they do. Think of it like a musician, if someone wants to be excellent with a guitar, they will not be grand at anything else. That being said, I would not exclude the possibility and I like the idea of a warrior being able to cast a solid spell. They might be limited in their spell repertoire, however. A kind of "special attack" that they develop over time.


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## Prince of Spires (May 29, 2020)

Chuck said:


> The issue I would have with a mage/warrior would be how armor and magic affect each other. If someone is wearing plate armor, a fireball or lightning bolt would conduct through the armor and hurt the caster.


If you are not wearing armour you would still get fried by a lightning bolt or fireball though. I don't see how that would change. If anything, magical armour could help. And while armour maybe wouldn't stop a fireball it would stop an arrow, which is just as likely to kill you on a field of battle.

Also, armour doesn't limit movement nearly as much as films want us to believe.


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## ThinkerX (May 29, 2020)

Angry Briar Rabbit said:


> If a character is going to be GREAT at welding a sword, then that is all they do. Think of it like a musician, if someone wants to be excellent with a guitar, they will not be grand at anything else. That being said, I would not exclude the possibility and I like the idea of a warrior being able to cast a solid spell. They might be limited in their spell repertoire, however. A kind of "special attack" that they develop over time.



most of the 'battlemages' on my world were legionaries who tested positive for magical talent.  They'd already been trained with sword and spear and crossbow. Even afterwards..,well, the wizards of my worlds are wimps in magical ability.  Spells for fixing and finding, petty wards and misleading illusions, the occasional 'trip them up' or entanglement spell.  Not many could manage fireballs and lightning bolts.


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## Archunt3r (May 30, 2020)

I've got something akin to Battlemages in some of my books, which as mentioned strong physically and mentally, that will don armor whether it be plate armor, chain mail, or whatever but will fight with sword and shield, as well as magic when it's needed. Either used for misdirection or for damage or help buffing/augmenting.


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## Chuck (May 30, 2020)

Prince of Spires said:


> If you are not wearing armour you would still get fried by a lightning bolt or fireball though. I don't see how that would change. If anything, magical armour could help. And while armour maybe wouldn't stop a fireball it would stop an arrow, which is just as likely to kill you on a field of battle.
> 
> Also, armour doesn't limit movement nearly as much as films want us to believe.


Heat and electricity take the path of least resistance. When the fireball or lightning bolt leaves the mage's fingers, if it connects with the metal armor, it would conduct through the armor. Without the armor, it would fly away from the mage.


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## Prince of Spires (Jun 1, 2020)

Chuck said:


> Heat and electricity take the path of least resistance. When the fireball or lightning bolt leaves the mage's fingers, if it connects with the metal armor, it would conduct through the armor. Without the armor, it would fly away from the mage.


Not really. At least not on a macro scale. Lightning seeks a path towards the biggest difference in charge. Which is pretty much always the earth. It is why you shouldn't stand in an open field in a thunderstorm. The metal armour makes little difference here, unless it has a lot of spikes. 

Of course, you can always apply some "because magic" reasoning. You need to anyway, since I suspect that the lightning bolt otherwise jumps to the earth as fast as possible. I.e. right in front of the mages feet...


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## Angry Briar Rabbit (Jun 1, 2020)

Prince of Spires said:


> Of course, you can always apply some "because magic" reasoning. You need to anyway, since I suspect that the lightning bolt otherwise jumps to the earth as fast as possible. I.e. right in front of the mages feet...



Magic energy attracted to other magic energy, perhaps? ABR


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## Patrick-Leigh (Jun 8, 2020)

My flintlock fantasy setting has all kinds of battle mages, including (drum roll please) GUN MAGES!!!  (Think Samus Aran's arm cannon, only with flintlock weapons.)


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## StrawhatOverlord (Jun 14, 2020)

Yes, in a few ways.  Royal and Imperial armies have mage divisions. Some rulers have "paladins" (I'm not gonna call them that but haven't named them yet) who can do some magic, but it's not scholarly wizardry. Priests of the war gods would mostly be warriors as per their demands of worship, but that's not traditional mages either. Then there's legit actual wizards who are also legit warriors, called battlemages (unless I find a more original name that also sounds cool later), but most of them tend to specialized in one or the other much more, or be not that great at both. A few are actually very good at both and they're basically living legends, referred to as "Battlemage_insert name_".


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## skip.knox (Jan 10, 2021)

Rather than start a new thread (which I already did over here Traditional battle mages ), I'll append to this one. No question, just sketching out some thoughts.

So, yes, I do have battlemages. But of course I had to consider where they come from and what roles they would play in a traditional medieval society that had evolved with magic present. In Altearth, magic is unreliable because it is poorly understood; actually, is understood incorrectly. So, a battlemage can't simply dial up a fireball, set the speed and arc, and launch it like artillery. With training and discipline, a greater effectiveness can be achieved, but not a perfect one.

There are battlefield considerations. Any sort of ranged attack, for example, has some considerations. The enemy might flank you. The enemy might be widely dispersed. You have to know where the enemy is and you might not know that. At some point, your guys have to close with their guys--battlefields are secured only with infantry--at which point ranged weapons become more of a danger than a help.

So there's that.

Close combat magic is problematic in a multitude of ways, depending on how it's deployed. But the effects of friendly fire cannot be discounted, even there.

Maneuverability is another factor. How do these mages get around? Do they move as groups or individuals? How are they protected from countermeasures?  What's the rate of fire? Do they get overheated and their magic jams?

But I'm letting all that cook for the time being. Right now, I'm more interested in societal and organizational questions. See next post.


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## skip.knox (Jan 10, 2021)

In Altearth, mages come in a wide variety of types, but the two of most interest are court mages and tower wizards. The former are obvious: kings and great princes find it to their advantage to have one or more magicians directly dependent upon them. Such mages are going to be more valuable at court than on the battlefield simply because more is done at court.

Tower wizards is that category of magician who lives on his own, isolated in a tower, engaged primarily in research. Such wizards might be hired by a prince, might even reside at court for a time, but they have their own resources and their own agenda. (a third type worth mentioning is the professor, for universities in Altearth are bastions of magical reserach and teaching, but they don't enter directly into the battlemage discussion)

Mages present multiple challenges for the prince. One, they're expensive to retain and maintain. Princes solve this, gradually and reluctantly, by granting lands to mages in exchange for service. The tendency is for such mages to become more independent, having their own sources of wealth, they naturally begin to have aims that don't always coincide with that of the prince. Or of the new prince. What had been an ally can become an adversary.

Two, recruitment is spotty. The first universities were founded in an attempt to secure for the prince a steady stream of mages who could at least be relied upon to do basic stuff like astrological charts, discovering deceptions and poisons, and so on. This has had varying success, for another problem is with the prince himself. This generation might support and promote while the next generation neglects and drives mages to penury.

Moving to actual military expeditions, mages prove exceedingly difficult to manage. They're worse than barons. They are prideful and independent minded. They tend to negotiate terms of service, and princes are notoriously erratic in payment. 

Worse, mages with combat experience are rare. They are high value targets on the battlefield. Not all are courageous, and getting them to act in concert is difficult, not least because battlefield communications are unreliable. And if you think maintaining a wizard is costly, just think what a whole military academy worth of them costs. It just can't be done.

All in all, therefore, the very notion of battlemage is vague in Altearth. Yes, princes would love to have several death-dealing mages who could strike the enemy without error (or even with high accuracy) and on command. Every once in a great while, a leader emerges who can do this. Charlemagne did. Aelfred did. Afonso the Great did. But the list of failures is much longer. And then there are the cases, like with Henry III of Anglia, where a king established such a group of mages, experienced and effective, and they sort of looked at each other and decided they themselves should rule.

Be careful what you wish for, and be even more careful what you train for.

All this is world-building for me, trying to get a sense of where "battle magic" would stand at the time of my story ( = 13thc Europe).


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