# Why all the elves?



## Alva (Sep 4, 2013)

I apologize for the long start but I think it is somewhat bearable in order to set up my question:

- - -

I consider myself an avid reader of fantasy. I crave to read about new worlds, new places, new cultures and new characters. I enjoy new plants and new animals and new everything: architecture, vehicles, trades, clothing, furniture, foods. And by "new" I don't mean "modern" but "different", "foreign", "alternative", "surprising".

I've read my share of Tolkien (and one Eddings) and a whole bunch of other fantasy literature all the way from Susanna Clarke to Le Guin and Robin Hobb. I couldn't stand _Narnia_ (so I never finished it) and I found _The King of Elfland's Daughter_ so boring it's a miracle I managed to just get over with it. I've even read the first part of the _Twilight_-quartet out of sheer curiosity.

Along with the printed material, I also read a lot short stories on internet.

- - -

And my question stands: why so many elves, orcs, pixies, werewolves, vampires, dragons, goblins, dwarves? (Plus, why all the "dark lords" and "evil minions"?)

I've wondered this for years but since I'm not really interested in any of those creatures myself, it has remained as a big mystery to me. Why do so many fantasy writers show such a burning interest towards - for instance - elves? What is the glamour or the intrigue I just cannot grasp? Tell me! Why do you write about elves and/or orcs? Or dragons? Or unicorns for that matter?

I'm certainly not meaning to be rude here. I mean no harm at all. Neither am I trying to critize the use of those aforementioned (and other) already existing or even mythical species - I'm just curious. Since I know many people on this site have chosen to write about elves and orcs and dragons, I thought this forum could be an excellent way to englighten myself on this matter. : D


(As an end note: I hope I'm doing this right since I've never created a post before.)


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## Lawfire (Sep 4, 2013)

I would think that the popularity of Dungeons and Dragons has something to do with it. Also many video games in the fantasy genre have their share of the "standard" fantasy elements. They're popular, people like them, so people write about them.


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## Alva (Sep 4, 2013)

That is a valid point and I'm sure both Tolkien and D&D have a lot to do with popularity of many of the beings I mentioned.

However, it is still not an answer to the question I have in mind. : ) I'm not actually interested in how came the typical fantasy beings being so typical, but what it is in them that keeps interesting people years after years? For example: Is it the longevity in elves that many writers find so fascinating or is it something completely else?

(I must admit that to me, most "mythical beasts" are just instant interest killers.)


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## Steerpike (Sep 4, 2013)

They're popular among readers, as Lawfire said. 

The works that form the foundation of the genre include them (Tolkien; Lord Dunsany). The works that came on the heels of Tolkien and was successful in the genre often include them. Many readers are interested in fantasy because they like elves or similar beings. 

They certainly aren't necessary in fantasy writing, but so long as readers have a fondness for books about them, writers will keep writing stories that include them.


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## Feo Takahari (Sep 4, 2013)

As the first "other," I'll note that I write a lot about demons--as beings that are inherently defined as "evil," they're useful for commenting on what "evil" is and isn't.

As for your general question, I think selling fantasy is a bit like trying to sell car magazines. There's something your most devoted and most interested readers will say they want (respectively, "something new and interesting" and "detailed information about cars.") There's also something that's easily sold to a large number of people, many of them not necessarily your devotees (respectively, "something comforting and familiar" and "something with a beautiful woman on the cover.") Enough people have figured this out that the latter predominates over the former. (You also see this principle at work in television comedies--shows people actually like often don't survive as many seasons as shows that a broad cross-section of society is willing to sit through and tolerate.)


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## wordwalker (Sep 4, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> As for your general question, I think selling fantasy is a bit like trying to sell car magazines. There's something your most devoted and most interested readers will say they want (respectively, "something new and interesting" and "detailed information about cars.") There's also something that's easily sold to a large number of people, many of them not necessarily your devotees (respectively, "something comforting and familiar" and "something with a beautiful woman on the cover.") Enough people have figured this out that the latter predominates over the former. (You also see this principle at work in television comedies--shows people actually like often don't survive as many seasons as shows that a broad cross-section of society is willing to sit through and tolerate.)



Superb example, Feo. And I agree, with races it's as much the familiarity, or at least "here's this elf's distinction from the Seventy Years Of Elves", as it is any more specific appeal they have.

--Quick mind-stretcher: if Tolkien had given his all to filling Middle Earth's side-corners with talking horses, or reluctant djinn, or anything else, what would the industry be like today? :showoff:

Still, elves are longer-lived, more beautiful, more magical, more nimble, more artistic, more witty... the only reason not to use them is if they seem too obvious.


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## Steerpike (Sep 4, 2013)

I don't see any reason not to use elves or anything else if that's how you want to proceed. Makes no more sense to me than saying "man, there sure are a lot of stories about humans. I'm not reading those anymore." If the story interests me, and if the author does a good job and keep my attention, I'll read it even if the main characters can't swing a dog without hitting an elf.


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## Alva (Sep 4, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> They're popular among readers, as Lawfire said.
> 
> The works that form the foundation of the genre include them (Tolkien; Lord Dunsany). The works that came on the heels of Tolkien and was successful in the genre often include them. Many readers are interested in fantasy because they like elves or similar beings.
> 
> They certainly aren't necessary in fantasy writing, but so long as readers have a fondness for books about them, writers will keep writing stories that include them.



Hmm. True. But I'm still looking for deeper and maybe even somewhat more "intellectual" reasons. Individual reasons. It would be a sad world if all those thousands of elve populations were only to exist due to their popularity among possible target audience(s). I'd like to know if there are some unique emotional/intellectual motivators that cause people to write about elves and orcs and other very typical and altogether familiar beings all over and over again.

I'm apparently having problems making myself sharp and clear here, but I'd like to hear more about possible individual reasons - other than marketing. Evidently people seem to consider a lot what kinds of species or races they include whilst they're world-building. They also pay more or less attention to the cultures and attitudes related to different kinds of species. Thus, I'm kind of interested in hearing, why one person chooses to write about (for instance) elves instead of creating a species of their own?

Is it just because it's easier? (I truly hope not...)


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## Steerpike (Sep 4, 2013)

I think humans are wired to view things as "us" versus "them" or "like" and "not like." Having a good and evil dichotomy of the sort represented by elves and orcs plays into that nicely. 

People may also associate with the tragedy of elves. While long-lived, beautiful, and so on, they are often portrayed as a race in decline. It fits in with a nostalgic view of the past where the good ole' days were better but are inexorably fading away into history.


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## Alva (Sep 4, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> As the first "other," I'll note that I write a lot about demons--as beings that are inherently defined as "evil," they're useful for commenting on what "evil" is and isn't.
> 
> As for your general question, I think selling fantasy is a bit like trying to sell car magazines. There's something your most devoted and most interested readers will say they want (respectively, "something new and interesting" and "detailed information about cars.") There's also something that's easily sold to a large number of people, many of them not necessarily your devotees (respectively, "something comforting and familiar" and "something with a beautiful woman on the cover.") Enough people have figured this out that the latter predominates over the former. (You also see this principle at work in television comedies--shows people actually like often don't survive as many seasons as shows that a broad cross-section of society is willing to sit through and tolerate.)



Well... I guess it is so then. Though I'm dissappointed. Just very, deeply deeply disappointed. I was hoping that people would answer me other than marketing. ": )

I actually study literature at university so I have an idea on how publishing world rolls. But it's just saddening that most people see fantasy as being "elves and orcs and dragons". There are just so many borders fantasy should be able to break and so many worlds and creatures yet to be presented! And then people re-create the Tolkien elves over and over again. Or that is how I feel every so often. : ) This is of course my personal opinion.

Along with mere marketing, I personally fear one of the reasons to be sheer lazyness. It's so much more easier to introduce the reader to an old, familiar species instead of a new and foreign one. But of course, I'm once again expressing my own thoughts. And I still hope someone would serve me an alternative, surprising point of view that would make me gasp in awe. I'm sure people have their own individual reasons too - other than money and lazyness.

(Plus, there are also a few nice takes on elves that have handled the subject - and species - in new, fresh ways. At least in those pieces of writing, the writer has clearly realized the weight of literal history the species in question carry.)


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## Saigonnus (Sep 4, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> They certainly aren't necessary in fantasy writing, but so long as readers have a fondness for books about them, writers will keep writing stories that include them.



I second this sentiment; though I am a little more picky anymore, the standard races that are included need to be interesting and at least a little different from the Tolkienesque or D&Dish manifestations that have been in fantasy literature for decades. I think having "stock" races with the traditional "feel" is fine (as long as the characters themselves are interesting), but I would probably put the book down if they aren't and don't diverge any from the classic portrayal of the given race.

Another thing I have noticed is how few novels have dwarves compared to elves... it seems like every second fantasy author has elves in their works but perhaps fewer than one-in-four or five have dwarves, not to mention gnomes or halflings.


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## Svrtnsse (Sep 4, 2013)

Elves are easy. There's a lot of work done already that include them and your average person will have a reasonable understanding of what they are. Same with dwarves and hobbits/halflings, orcs, vampires, werewolves and other common and popular races. It's like using a pre-assembled package instead of building something from scratch. By calling my fantasy race elves and giving them visual attributes that match the common reader's perception of what elves are I save myself a whole lot of work compared to coming up with something similar but with a different name.

I think you may be asking a slightly different question though. Could it be what you're wondering is "why do so many writers include a race with the attributes commonly associated with elves?"
I think it's something to do with playing to the dreams and ambitions of the readers. If you take a look at what characterises elves you'll find that they are in many ways slightly exaggerated and idealised humans. They're tall and beautiful, slender and graceful. They're intelligent and mysterious. They're powerful magicians, skilled archers, fearsome fighters and they live forever. All of these things are things that a human could easily dream of being. 
I'm reasonably comfortable with who I am, but if I were to be reborn I wouldn't mind being a tall, slender, beautiful, immortal, hunter-magician adventurer. That would be kind of cool, at least in theory. It's something I can dream of. I wouldn't mind being an elf.

I think the role the elf fulfils is as the idealise human being; the cool, awesome being that we as readers are meant to look up to and aspire to be. They may come off as cheesy and they may be overdone to death, but I still think that in most stories they have that role to fill.
Another thought that just struck me is that powerful as they may be they will often need the help of the human (or hobbit) hero to help save them. The elves may have issues of some kind and despite their apparent superiority they will need the chose one to come to their rescue. This in turn will make the hero of the story seem even more heroic and awesome.
The hero is a "regular guy" but he's so awesome even the powerful elves need his help.

Food for thought?


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## Alva (Sep 4, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> People may also associate with the tragedy of elves. While long-lived, beautiful, and so on, they are often portrayed as a race in decline. It fits in with a nostalgic view of the past where the good ole' days were better but are inexorably fading away into history.



This is a type of answer I was looking for.

And I see the point.

I just still wonder how come the novelty of this premise last so long! It amazes me how people don't grow tired of writing about elves or orcs - even after they have read dozens of other books about them(?) I myself can't even get the motivation to write a single short story about dragons (even though the representations of dragons tend to show far greater variety from story to story).

But well. I have my own creatures to concentrate on to.


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## Lord Ben (Sep 4, 2013)

For much the same reason as Westerns have horses and revolvers I assume.


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## Svrtnsse (Sep 4, 2013)

Alva said:


> I just still wonder how come the novelty of this premise last so long! It amazes me how people don't grow tired of writing about elves or orcs - even after they have read dozens of other books about them(?) I myself can't even get the motivation to write a single short story about dragons (even though the representations of dragons tend to show far greater variety from story to story).



Is it really novelty though? Isn't it the strength of the familiarity that's been argued as one of the main reasons for including elves and orcs in this thread?
A fantasy world may be different from the real world, but if it's different in roughly the same way as other fantasy worlds it has that welcoming comfort of something safe and familiar. 

Another area where similar rules apply is music. When I was at university I used to work as a DJ at the local campus club. You would think that students at a university would be intellectual and openminded and that they would be interested in hearing new and exciting music, but that's not the case. They often said they would - people very much like the idea of experiencing new and interesting things, but when it actually happens they're not all that keen on it. 
People would complain about hearing the same old songs all the time and about how the music was always the same, but once I actually played something new and interesting it usually wouldn't work - even when the very same songs later went on to become big chart-topping hits.
The tracks that went down the best were usually the current chart-toppers and the all time classics. "Summer of '69" will still fill a dance floor.


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## Alva (Sep 4, 2013)

Saigonnus said:


> I second this sentiment; though I am a little more picky anymore, the standard races that are included need to be interesting and at least a little different from the Tolkienesque or D&Dish manifestations that have been in fantasy literature for decades. I think having "stock" races with the traditional "feel" is fine (as long as the characters themselves are interesting), but I would probably put the book down if they aren't and don't diverge any from the classic portrayal of the given race.



I'm having the same problem, though I've grown up to be extremely picky. I'm quite character orientated, so too typical or - at worst - clichÃ©e presentations of elves (for instance) are instant interest killers to me. Absolutely instant. Thus, I tend to read only low fantasy and avoid everything that even mentions "elves" or "dragons". It took me years to gather enough courage (and motivation) to familiarize myself with the writings of Robin Hobb. It's such a shame, her books are lovely. : ) Luckily one of my friends forced me to try _Assassin's Apprentice_.

 I wish there would be more variety in the stylistic choices on the fantasy fiction arena. I'd love to have even more writers like Susanna Clarke (_Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell_)Philip Pullman (_His Dark Materials_ -trilogy) and Scott Lynch (_Gentlemen Bastards _-series). I like philosophical fantasy. And "academic" fantasy, too.


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## Spider (Sep 4, 2013)

I honestly can't say I'm writing about elves and orcs in my WIP, but I'm going to put myself in those shoes for the moment. About a year ago, I had a "brilliant" idea to create all these new races rather than sticking to the "overused" elves, orcs, and such. I asked my friend what she thought of it, and she said that she probably wouldn't read it if it was too out of the ordinary. 

That being said, I did tame down my ideas a lot compared to what they started out to be. Creating species of your own is a risk because you don't know if it will work for the reader or your own WIP for that matter. Too many new ideas stuffed into one package could be difficult to handle. There's nothing wrong with writing about these stock races because they're easier. As a beginning writer, I would write about them because I could use the works of others as a reference to guide me in writing my own.

I suppose I might also use them because so many of these races are either good/light or bad/dark. It's something that is not so easily defined in reality, and through this approach, the characters can be simplified and easily distinguished as protagonists or antagonists. Of course, some people don't write about them for the same reason. I also acknowledge that authors have put their own spin on the races, making them appear more like "gray" characters. On the other hand, there's some sort of a unity that is created when readers (and the writer) can pinpoint the races they want to root for as opposed to the races they want to vent their anger on.


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## Lord Ben (Sep 4, 2013)

Generally when I'm looking for a book to read and have to choose between an "epic tale of a battle between Elf and Orc" or "epic tale of a battle between Flariss and Thalgir" I'm going to pick the one that makes sense.

The second, to me, just looks like a book that uses a story an excuse for the writer to tell us about some world and races he drew up (and probably has characters named Eath'ma Goria'la'thrim at their *most *pronounceable, and each syllable means something in their naming convention which he or she will explain) and the first one I get a decent idea of what kind of story it is.


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## Alva (Sep 4, 2013)

Svrtnsse said:


> Is it really novelty though?



That is exactly the thing I'm wondering. But maybe not everybody needs to have the novelty element to motivate them to write. I do, though. Plus, creating a species of ones own grants much more freedom to roam.



Svrtnsse said:


> Another area where similar rules apply is music. When I was at university I used to work as a DJ at the local campus club. You would think that students at a university would be intellectual and openminded and that they would be interested in hearing new and exciting music, but that's not the case. They often said they would - people very much like the idea of experiencing new and interesting things, but when it actually happens they're not all that keen on it.



That is a good example. I must admit that I can somewhat relate to need for familiarity when it comes to music. Though I listen to all kinds of genres and artists, there are also moments when I certainly don't need the techno rhythms or any contemporary classical "noise". (And I play an accordeon, so contemporary classical music is familiar to me first hand. I just can't take it most of the time. ": )

Still, you're example is actually answering the question "Why people read traditional high fantasy stories?" not exactly "Why do people write classical high fantasy?". Marketing, though, is of course one reason, and I partly understand that many (especially publishing writers) would like to have an easily predictable, large-sized target audience.

But still, I'd like to turn the music example around a bit and ask: "How did _you_ feel about playing the same music night after night?" Especially when part of your audience was displeased although you tried your very best to serve good music and suit everyone's tastes. The problem - even with target marketing - seems to be that you can't please everybody. Thus I'm wondering, that surely there must be also some inner motivator for a writer to write so called "generic" fantasy. At least I don't count money as inner motivator. Money is only a tool, an easy external goal, whereas writing in itself can (and should?) have intrinsic value.


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## Penpilot (Sep 4, 2013)

Alva said:


> I just still wonder how come the novelty of this premise last so long! It amazes me how people don't grow tired of writing about elves or orcs - even after they have read dozens of other books about them(?) I myself can't even get the motivation to write a single short story about dragons (even though the representations of dragons tend to show far greater variety from story to story).



Well if it's lasted so long then it's no longer a novelty is it. Part of it has to do IMHO with the foundation of the genre. And another is people, as much as they might deny it, like the familiar. The gravitate to the same thing but only different, if that makes any sense. It's like how many versions of The Hero's Journey or Star-Crossed Lover can be told before people become bored? That number hasn't been reached yet since the beginning of story telling. 

Also stories with traditional elements only make up part of Fantasy. There are tons on novels that have little or none of those elements. One of the biggest hits recently, Game of Thrones, only has dragons, but no fantasy folk except in legend, the Children of the Forest.

Using creatures from human myth allows the author an easy in. All you have to do mention an elf there will be a easy understanding for the general reader on how it looks and acts. It gives them sound footing for the species even if you break the tropes. If you create a creature called a lets say Spelf, you have to go about explaining and describing exactly what that is, and the reader is left on less sure footing when they first encounter the species. 

Also if a person is going to create an species that walks like an elf and talks like an elf, why call it something else just to be different?


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## Ophiucha (Sep 4, 2013)

One thing I've noticed in a lot of more recent fantasy featuring elves is that they can be, and are, used to sort of have a minority race while still keeping the setting predominantly European. Like, back in Medieval Europe, most kingdoms had wars between one another and rivalries and territory wars that just aren't as common in the West any more. It's harder for us, particularly in America, to empathize with the 'France vs. England' mentality since to us it's all just a generic blend of European. But we certainly can understand racial tensions, so by making France elves and England humans, you can keep the setting 'medieval Europe' but bring in dialogue and conflicts that relate more to our own conflicts. That's a more recent trend, though.

In the broader sense, yeah, I agree with most of the others. Even though I don't particularly like elves or even medieval fantasy, I _grew up_ reading books with elven archers and their dying civilizations and half-elf healer girl love interests and long descriptions of awe-inspiring spires in elven cities of gold and their cute pointed ears. If a thousand writers read those same books that I did, it seems likely that at least a few of them would want to write about elves themselves. Although, my generation did also grow up with _Harry Potter_; we might be tainted with too many memories of Dobby to keep the tradition alive.


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## Alva (Sep 4, 2013)

Spider said:


> I honestly can't say I'm writing about elves and orcs in my WIP, but I'm going to put myself in those shoes for the moment. About a year ago, I had a "brilliant" idea to create all these new races rather than sticking to the "overused" elves, orcs, and such. I asked my friend what she thought of it, and she said that she probably wouldn't read it if it was too out of the ordinary.
> 
> That being said, I did tame down my ideas a lot compared to what they started out to be. Creating species of your own is a risk because you don't know if it will work for the reader or your own WIP for that matter. Too many new ideas stuffed into one package could be difficult to handle. There's nothing wrong with writing about these stock races because they're easier. As a beginning writer, I would write about them because I could use the works of others as a reference to guide me in writing my own.



True. I admit that beginners may find it easier to familiarize themselves with fantasy by using stock characters. And I guess every genre has its own set of stock characters, too, so it's not only fantasy-related. Plus, it seems that great many people start writing by creating fanfiction. 

Though I must say I'm one of those readers who would have been instantly intrigued by non-stock fantasy request.  Plus, in my opinion non-stock fantasy usually doesn't mean heavy or difficult fantasy. It can be as light as any literature, the characters would only be out of the ordinary and maybe even the surroundings a bit foreign. : )

Though I admit it, I love complicated, multi-layered stories with complicated, multi-layered characters.



Spider said:


> I suppose I might also use them because so many of these races are either good/light or bad/dark. It's something that is not so easily defined in reality, and through this approach, the characters can be simplified and easily distinguished as protagonists or antagonists. Of course, some people don't write about them for the same reason. I also acknowledge that authors have put their own spin on the races, making them appear more like "gray" characters. On the other hand, there's some sort of a unity that is created when readers (and the writer) can pinpoint the races they want to root for as opposed to the races they want to vent their anger on.



I'm a bit vary towards black & white -dichotomy. I don't like it in real life and I tend to not to like it in literature. Though this is again my personal opinion. I just tend to feel sorry over the "Born Bad" -characters. Thus, I'm definitely more on the gray-scale. I like that I can both hate and love my characters at once. It gives some spice to writing, plus that ethically complicated characters serce their writers with some really strange plot-twists and character relationships at times.


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## Svrtnsse (Sep 4, 2013)

Alva said:


> But still, I'd like to turn the music example around a bit and ask: "How did _you_ feel about playing the same music night after night?" Especially when part of your audience was displeased although you tried your very best to serve good music and suit everyone's tastes. The problem - even with target marketing - seems to be that you can't please everybody. Thus I'm wondering, that surely there must be also some inner motivator for a writer to write so called "generic" fantasy. At least I don't count money as inner motivator. Money is only a tool, an easy external goal, whereas writing in itself can (and should?) have intrinsic value.



This is a good and valid question. At first it annoyed me - a lot - that people didn't have the ability to appreciate what I was giving them. I did my best to provide good quality music entertainment and the sheep didn't have the brains to appreciate it. I was disappointed.
Over time it changed though. I eventually came to realise that my role as a DJ wasn't to educate the crowd on cutting edge dance music, but to make sure everyone had a good time. What matters isn't the music but the dancing. It doesn't matter how cool the music is if no one is dancing to it. It doesn't matter if a song has been played to death as long as the smiles on the faces of the dancers are genuine. 
Over time I changed from playing the music to playing the crowd and over time I grew to enjoy that a lot more. It's more fun to have a heaving party than to have an empty dance floor - even if I play the music I love.
It's not all about selling out though. Once you get the floor going, you can fit in the occasional weird song. I had a few tracks none of the other DJs played that would work wonders for me if I played them at the right time (Covenant - Dead Stars) so there was still a personal touch to it, it was just more subtle than it had originally been.

I think the same may apply in my writing. I've got elves and dwarves and hobbits (anfylk). I've got gods and dragons and magic. I've got all of the standard fantasy tropes designed to seem like your bog standard high-fantasy setting. It's to get the reader that sense of familiarity, to easily give them a first impression. 
Once they've got the basics and start finding out more they'll realise there are things that deviate from the norm and which should (in theory) pique their curiosity and give the world a greater sense of depth.
I don't know how well it actually works, but at least I'm having fun with it.


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## Lord Ben (Sep 4, 2013)

Alva said:


> True. I admit that beginners may find it easier to familiarize themselves with fantasy by using stock characters. And I guess every genre has its own set of stock characters, too, so it's not only fantasy-related. Plus, it seems that great many people start writing by creating fanfiction.
> 
> Though I must say I'm one of those readers who would have been instantly intrigued by non-stock fantasy request.  Plus, in my opinion non-stock fantasy usually doesn't mean heavy or difficult fantasy. It can be as light as any literature, the characters would only be out of the ordinary and maybe even the surroundings a bit foreign. : )
> 
> Though I admit it, I love complicated, multi-layered stories with complicated, multi-layered characters.



Standard fantasy races don't have to be standard fantasy characters.   Characters can be different and all have their own voice without having to be entirely separate races.   To use a GoT reference Tywin Lannister and Ned Stark are both humans yet each very unique.  There isn't a need to make them unique races.


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## Feo Takahari (Sep 4, 2013)

Penpilot said:


> Also if a person is going to create an species that walks like an elf and talks like an elf, why call it something else just to be different?



That's the one thing I've never gotten. Old-school "fair folk" are relatively inhuman, but most modern elves walk like humans and talk like humans. I have a hard time understanding why they're not just called humans. (Then again, my perceptions might be a little unusual in this--I think a lot of dragons are just scaly humans, too.)


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## Ankari (Sep 4, 2013)

Why elves? Because elves _are_ fantasy. Not directly, but parallelly. Why read fantasy when it has been said over and over again that there are only so many plots an author can use? Why not read fictional history? The stories will be exactly the same, but with different terminology and scope.

Elves represent what humans (us) want to be. They are typically represented as beautiful, wise, long living (an important aspiration, by the way), powerful, possessing heightened physical and mental abilities, but, aesthetically, very similar to us. Like a person living through their child, we can live through them. Or, at best, observe them through the tales we weave.

Every race is a symbol of real life. An orc, for example, is the easily identifiable enemy. "Look at the green skin and tusk! An enemy!"

Watch the news, listen to the leaders of the world, and you'll see this pursuit of identifying the enemy. We label people that hold different ideas from us as the other, we take a segment of a population and subconsciously apply it to the entire people.

We, as authors and humans belonging to an ethnicity or nationality, want to simplify the concept of "enemy" to our heroes. If all we used were humans, then the reader will not understand why a hero can run through a camp of an enemy that looks just like the hero and slay them without a second thought.

Why the trope races? It depends on how much you want to spend of your book investing into fleshing out your world. But, at the end, will your readers just shrug there shoulders and say "huh, those guys are like elves, but with wings and gold skin." Was it worth all your writing for them to come to that conclusion?


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## psychotick (Sep 4, 2013)

Hi,

I think it comes back to the old axiom - write what you know. For me I write a lot of elves, but then I've read a lot of books based on them, watched the movies, played D and D etc. I know them. And probably more important I spend a greater proportion of my time thinking about them / imagining them than I do thinking about and imagining most other fantasy creatures / people.

But equally as an idea they are one that grabs the imagination. As sadly are vampires hunting for teenage girls to woo! I suppose as well as writing what you know you will also end up writing what you love.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Feo Takahari (Sep 5, 2013)

This is largely off-topic, but Ankari's post made me realize something I didn't previously put together: I find orcs more admirable than elves. Elves are often described as wise, but I don't think I've ever read a story where they were actually wiser than the human characters--they were simply confident that they were wiser than humans, which is a trait a _lot_ of misanthropic humans have. In addition, they don't seem to do much, at best staying out of the heroes' way and at worst making a nuisance of themselves. Orcs, meanwhile, are totally straightforward--they have their tribe, and they fight for it, attacking humans to claim land and resources for the tribe's benefit. They're remarkably persistent, fighting even when the hero is guaranteed to defeat them, and I've never read a story where they failed to be loyal to each other. For lack of a better word, they seem to have more virtues than elves do.

I sometimes say I want more originality in fantasy. But really, I don't have a problem with orcs, or dwarves, or pixies for that matter. I just don't like elves.


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## Amanita (Sep 5, 2013)

I dislike the idea that elves and orcs are necessary for fantasy as well. For some reason, I'm less annoyed by werewolves or more animal-like beings such as unicorns and similar. 
I usually fail to see anything that makes Elves and Orcs really different from humans. Elves are more perfect in various ways and are "immortal" but still die in battles and disasters which are the most common plot-relevant causes of death in fantasy stories. This makes the difference relatively irrelevant and they usually don't seem to be very affected by it either. 
And Orcs simply have all the negative traits "savage" human groups are accused of having coupled with ugliness and that's it. The idea that killing enemies and winning their territory is heroic by itself isn't really embraced by many people in western countries anymore after the two World Wars. Civilian casualties and cruelty cause a public outcry. But if the enemies are Orcs and truly purely evil in the first place, this kind of thing can be written without a bad conscience. Orcs allow to have "purely good" characters who still engage in large scale violence. 
I do think that deeply ingrained ideas of superior and inferior races play a part as well. Considering sexual relations between two different human groups disgusting is not accepted anymore for good reason but elves and orcs? Anytime. Elves _are_ superior while Orcs _are_ evil and everything's alright.
I don't think anyone's doing this consciously but I still believe it's one of the reasons why this kind of setting is so popular. The other aspects mentioned above are important too.


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## Sam James (Sep 5, 2013)

I think you need to expand your horizons a little with reading a bigger variety of books. There are tons of books without orcs and elves in them. The problem of using stock fantasy races is more apparent in video games than books. Read some Martin, Abercombie, Erikson, 3 of the biggest names in Secondary World fantasy, no orcs or elves there.

(And even if you were to draw similarities for example with Elves and Steven Erikson's Tiste races (Light/dark and shadow types). You will find lots of personality and differences between the two; for example the Tiste Edur draw upon Native American and Inuit cultures heavily.)

It's a misconception like saying you're sick of all fantasy books being about a "small farm boy destined for great things". Most are not.

If you want to read books with a great selection of unique races I suggest the aforementioned  Erikson's Malazan book of the fallen (That ranges from Undead Neanderthals to Hive Lizards) or China Mieville's Perdido Street Station. (With scarab headed people, cactus people and more.)


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## skip.knox (Sep 5, 2013)

I agree with the comment about humans. There is endless variety in human characters; so, too, can there be among elvish or dwarvish or whateverish characters. The race isn't the character.

To make the point in a different way, there's no end to the private detective who drinks too much, or the cop five days from retirement, or the angst-ridden young man seeking answer, or the troubled man of dark passions, or the feisty woman of independent spirit. Every genre has its tropes. It means nothing at all, really. Any of them can be written well or written badly.

Go write your own and don't trouble yourself over perceptions. That job belongs to agents and reviewers.


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## yachtcaptcolby (Sep 5, 2013)

Traditional fantasy races are useful in that readers already know what to expect from them. Elves are slender humanoids with pointed ears who live in the woods. Dwarves are short, stocky, bearded, and live underground. That built-in knowledge can make it easier for the reader to generate a picture of what you're doing and it can also provide stereotypes for a clever writer to contradict.


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## Ankari (Sep 5, 2013)

Just a clarification on Erikson. He used a lot of stock fantasy races. He had dragons, giants, ogiers and elves. The point has been made that the were called different names, and were given different cultural backgrounds, but Erikson used the whole Light, Dark and Shadow thing.

Also, he used the insect race. While not considered a stock fantasy race, it has been used enough to be considered common.


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## Chessie (Sep 5, 2013)

I definitely prefer my fantasy tales without Orcs and Elves. Though mostly play Elves in Skyrim and I love the cookie cutter dwarves. But when it comes to my own work, its all human with some mythological creatures in there. Fantasy is about the fantastical. It doesn't matter what you choose to write about so long as it creates a sense of wonder. 

Interesting enough, in browsing through Amazon's selections for fantasy books, I remember seeing only one which featured an elf protagonist.


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## Gurkhal (Sep 5, 2013)

I've got to say that I'm in the "only humans" group. I have yet to come across a situation or story idea where I think that a non-human race would be of better use than normal humans.


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## SeverinR (Sep 5, 2013)

I think having known beings in a book helps establish the world without reinventing the wheel.

Pointy eared humanoids with intelligence, that study the finer things in life, in fantasy that is an elf, in SF that is a Vulcan.

You don't have to make them a carbon copy of other elves, but they will be similar.

If I called a pointy eared humanoid with intelligence, enjoying the finer things in life, and called them Jenkins, people would just figure out they are a type of elf and be annoyed that the author didn't just call them elves to start with.

An author must build the world from what the reader knows to what he must know to understand your world. Without any known links, they will not be able to graps an understanding of the world they are reading and will grow bored.


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## dhrichards (Sep 5, 2013)

I think using Non-human characters, in my case, has been a way to explore social issues without getting bogged won in racial or ethnic issues. By making a non-human race one gets to talk about things that, had it been other humans, would be tricky. For example, having a Latino character means you open yourself up potential attacks that you don't get Hispanic issues... while few would argue if you did the same with say Elves. Maybe it is lazy on my part but I also find non human characters fun to write.
Dave

PS- love the poll, have to try and wedge in a sentient plant into my story now...


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## teacup (Sep 5, 2013)

In my story I have only humans and human like beings. Those being Werewolves and a race I created - Spiritwolves. 
There are mythical beasts, Elves, Dwarves, ect in my world, but not in the particular country I am writing.

I am definitely more interested in humans than anything else, and that's why the only other mythical things I've used are human based. Eg, Werewolves, and my Spiritwolves. (Okay, I have a dragon later on, but they're too awesome not to have ;P No, I do have it for plot reasons, but mostly I write humans.)


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## Sam James (Sep 6, 2013)

Ankari said:


> Just a clarification on Erikson. He used a lot of stock fantasy races. He had dragons, giants, ogiers and elves. The point has been made that the were called different names, and were given different cultural backgrounds, but Erikson used the whole Light, Dark and Shadow thing.
> 
> Also, he used the insect race. While not considered a stock fantasy race, it has been used enough to be considered common.



I think some of the links are very tenuous. Giants? Toblakai? Perhaps, they are only about 10 feet tall right? Karsa Orlong is more a play on the Conan/barbarian archetype and Erikson has already spoken on such. 

Ogres? Jaghut? Apart from green skin and tusks, I see no other similarities. The relationship with Ice magic, the love of solitary towers and cats. The high intelligence.

I do think the Tiste have enough differences to the elves. The only real similarities are the longetivity, sloped eyes, and relationship with elements (or aspects of light)

Dragons is the only thing I'll grant you. If this thread was called "Why all the Dragons?" I would have much more sympathy. But again, perhaps that is like saying "Why all the undead?" Both are things all cultures have incorporated into their cultural identity.


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## Ankari (Sep 6, 2013)

Races and their cultural background are two different things. If you recall the first book where Karsa is introduced, he refers to all humans as "children". He is to humans what an adult is to children. Besides their large size, what makes a giant a giant?

Erikson specifically uses the word "ogier" to describe Mappo. Why use that word if not to have your audience understand him to be an ogier?

This discussion is about using stock races, not how the author puts his twist on them. With that in mind, why give Erikson excuses for using them?

Disclaimer: I am a giant fan of Erikson. I'm not trying to pigeon hole him. But let's be honest about what he did.


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## Sam James (Sep 6, 2013)

Ah yes, I forgot about the Trell, so thanks for correcting me.

The main point I want to make is although Erikson's races share physical similarities to some stock fantasy races, is there anything beyond that? I am not sure. 

Through-out the thread people have spoken on the Elf archetype. Do the Tiste really share any of the defining character traits of Elves? My answer would be no. Is Mappo a stereotypical ogre? My answer would be no, beyond his physical appearance. 

You ask what makes a giant other than being tall? Slow and stupid is usually a big part of the archetype. Something the Toblakai don't show.

I do see the other side of the argument, if you have a race of tall beautiful people with pointy ears, but then happen to be cowardly and sly, have you still not created elves? Albeit elves with a twist.

But I think Erikson differs in his races enough to justify them not having to be associated with the stock archetypes. In fact he usually uses other archetypes to build his races upon (the Tiste Liosan are more akin to religious fanatics than to elves). Or tries to turn them on their heads (Toblokai are the romanticised barbarian juxtaposed with the harsh reality of barbarian life which included a lot of raping and warmongering).

This is just my opinion  I do not think Erikson is a perfect writer, but I am a big fan still.


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## brokethepoint (Sep 6, 2013)

It seems like there has been a couple threads dealing with "typical" fantasy races, which I really do not understand.  Maybe I am not reading the same books or something.  I just do not see the market being flooded with elves and dwarves, so I am not sure why it seems that people have a bone to pick with them.

From what I can recall these authors who are putting out quality work do not have an elf in their books.

Patrick Rothfuss
Joe Abercrombie
Brandon Sanderson
Scott Lynch
Glenn Cook
Guy Gavriel Kay
Daniel Abraham
Anthony Ryan

The only two that I can think of that are putting out work currently and that have elves are
Michael J. Sullivan
Terry Brooks


So is there really that many books that are coming out that have elves and dwarves?


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## Steerpike (Sep 6, 2013)

There are a whole slew of Dungeons and Dragons and Warhammer Fantasy books released all the time, and they have elves in them. These take up a decent amount of the shelf space at the book stores and sell well.


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## brokethepoint (Sep 6, 2013)

I would consider D&D and WH as a different category, would be pointless if it didn't have elves and dwarves and gnomes and halflings, oh my.


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## Feo Takahari (Sep 6, 2013)

brokethepoint said:


> I would consider D&D and WH as a different category, would be pointless if it didn't have elves and dwarves and gnomes and halflings, oh my.



D&D is comparable to those old horror movies that fit all the traditional horror monsters into one plot--but even broader, since it includes those horror monsters as well as all the fantasy ones! (It's as lawyer-friendly as they could make it, but it's not hard to guess that the "Flesh Golem" is Frankenstein, for instance.) Of course, it also has plenty of more unusual creatures like the Githyanki and the Inevitables.


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## Jastius (Sep 7, 2013)

I think people that seek out books with elves and the archetype races in them are seeking a certain type of book. I think they are looking for magic and a cultural connection that an industrialized society has marginalized if not eliminated entirely. I firmly believe that what we hunger to know is what we are most deficient in perspective of within our own lives. While most people possessing a deep familiarity with such archetypical persona do not seek them out specifically, those exploring the genre are drawn to them.


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## wino (Sep 8, 2013)

It's because most "elves" are pretty much a carbon copy of Tolkien's elves which makes them boring and predictable.  Why would I want to read about your second rate elves when I can just go read the LOTR?  

There are much more interesting mythical creatures that are rarely seen in fantasy.  How about mermaids?  Or trees that are sentient? 

Elves and dragons are way over done.


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## Steerpike (Sep 8, 2013)

I don't think anything is overdone. A good writer can take any of these elements and make a great story out of them. And even with traditional elves and dragons, for every person you find who doesn't want to read about them, you can find another who does. There is so much variety to choose from, it doesn't make sense to begrudge anyone else their own taste.


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## ThinkerX (Sep 9, 2013)

Regarding Erikson:

Tiste = Tolkien/Tad Williams style elves, with a heavy dose of earthside mythology.  You take a deeper peek into Tolkiens realm, some of those elves act alot like the Tiste.

Trell/Toblacki (sp?) and associated varients = Ogres, again with influence from earthside mythology.

Jaghut = AD&D Ogre Mages, modified a bit.

K'ChainCheMalle = lizardmen, of a sophisticated sort.  I'm reminded of the 'Slann' from 'Warhammer'.


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## Philip Overby (Sep 9, 2013)

We had a similar discussion (well, probably many) about this topic before. What it comes down to really is certain writers have aesthetics that they may like to please. For instance, putting elves in their stories gives them a mysterious, ancient race (like in Tolkien's work) or guerrilla fighters on the fringes of society (like the Witcher books). For some, it makes more sense to use elves instead of creating a whole new race. 

It's the same as if I said dragon. Certain people are probably going to picture the Western style, massive flying lizard that breathes fire. I could very well create something called a "Binglehopper" which is basically a dragon but with smaller wings. But wouldn't just be easier to call it a dragon? Or call it a Binglehopper dragon after the explorer who discovered it?

For me, if it's well-executed, I don't care what races are in a novel. I don't get hung up on if they are cliche' or anything like that. If a character is an elf, he or she just needs to be a good character, not a card-board copy of what an elf is. Same if I have a knight character. I don't want a flat, "save the princess, save the day, full plate, longsword" kind of character. Give him a bit more depth. Like a Sandor Clegane or a Don Quixote. 

I think when some read the word "elf" they think "oh boy, another cliche'" when maybe they should be thinking "I wonder what kind of character this elf will be." 

I'm going to label some of us here at Mythic Scribes "The Executioners." Meaning we don't mind what the content is as long as it's executed well. Hell, Jim Butcher made a book out of the idea of Pokemon and the Lost Roman Legion. And it's apparently pretty good. 

So any other questions about elves, dwarves, pirates, ninjas, dragons, unicorns, barbarians, or otherwise my answer will always be:

"How are they executed?" 

Execution>Everything


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## Steerpike (Sep 9, 2013)

I'm all in favor of executing elves. I'm still pissed about the War of the Beard. Dwarves FYW!


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## Mindfire (Sep 9, 2013)

ThinkerX said:


> Regarding Erikson:
> 
> ...
> 
> K'ChainCheMalle = lizardmen, of a sophisticated sort.  I'm reminded of the 'Slann' from 'Warhammer'.



Okay, see I've never read Erikson's work, so I'm speaking from ignorance. But this looks like the kind of self-indulgent nonsense that gives the fantasy genre a bad name. "K'ChainCheMalle"? Really? REALLY? That has got to be one of the silliest names I have ever read.


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## Steerpike (Sep 9, 2013)

Erikson's names work fine in the context of his stories and world. They fit. Some people are more open to that sort of thing  than others, ignorance aside.


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## Ankari (Sep 9, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> Okay, see I've never read Erikson's work, so I'm speaking from ignorance. But this looks like the kind of self-indulgent nonsense that gives the fantasy genre a bad name. "K'ChainCheMalle"? Really? REALLY? That has got to be one of the silliest names I have ever read.



...and I loved it. That is why writers need to worry less about specific opinions, and more about putting a story together for the larger audience.


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