# POV, Names and Descriptors



## Ireth (Apr 18, 2013)

I have a bit of a problem in the current scene of my latest WIP. The POV character has taken a man captive to torture him out of misguided revenge, and the man's family and friends soon show up to save him. The POV character knows the name of his captive, but not those of the family or friends, which makes things problematic when all eight would-be rescuers show up at the same time. Given the nature of the scene, there's no time to waste on formal introductions of each and every rescuer to the POV character, as the reader already knows most of their names, and the rest are guessable by context.

So, given that, how should I handle this scene without unnecessarily switching POV to someone who would know all the names, and without cluttering the page with potentially confusing descriptors like "the blonde woman archer", "the taller of the two blond men", "the dark-haired not-Fae* with grey eyes", etc.?

*this is a necessary evil, because the POV character doesn't know what those he calls "not-Fae" actually are (light-elves from Alfheim). They look a bit like Fae, but there are fundamental differences in physiology that sets them apart from both Fae and humans.


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## Steerpike (Apr 18, 2013)

Maybe he can assign nicknames to the people based on their appearance, or at least to some of them. To use an extreme example, two guys rush into a room, one with an eye-patch and the other with a peg leg. The MC doesn't know their names, but throughout the scene he thinks of them as "eye-patch" and "peg-leg" or maybe "one-eye" and "peg-leg."  If these characters have any physical description the POV character can latch on to, even a much more subtle one, it could be a convenient shorthand for you to refer to those characters in the scene.


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## Ireth (Apr 18, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Maybe he can assign nicknames to the people based on their appearance, or at least to some of them. To use an extreme example, two guys rush into a room, one with an eye-patch and the other with a peg leg. The MC doesn't know their names, but throughout the scene he thinks of them as "eye-patch" and "peg-leg" or maybe "one-eye" and "peg-leg."  If these characters have any physical description the POV character can latch on to, even a much more subtle one, it could be a convenient shorthand for you to refer to those characters in the scene.



Well, let's see what descriptions apply to each one:

1. Blond not-Fae archer with violet eyes (Vidar)
2. Dark-haired not-Fae with violet eyes (Birgir)
3. Blonde human archer with hazel eyes (ÃstriÃ°r)
4. Blond human man with a bearskin cloak and blue eyes like the captive's (BjÃ¶rn)
5. Unarmed blond human man (Ardghal)
6. Dark-skinned not-Fae with grey eyes (Gunnar)
7. Silver-haired not-Fae (Ãšlfr)
8. Brunette human woman with a sword (ArnbjÃ¶rg)

There are only a few whose appearances are wholly unique. Even some of the most distinctive traits, like violet eyes, wouldn't work as singular descriptors since they're shared between two or more characters. None of them have particularly distinctive scars, missing bodyparts or the like for the POV character to immediately latch onto.


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## Steerpike (Apr 18, 2013)

Well, you could always GIVE one of them a peg-leg


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## Ireth (Apr 18, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Well, you could always GIVE one of them a peg-leg



Seems a bit arbitrary, though, when you put it like that. I'd rather put something like a missing limb into the story with a definite purpose in mind, like character development (case in point: Cadell in Dragon's Egg). These characters are all solidified in my head, and I don't really want to change their images now on a whim. ^^;


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## ThinkerX (Apr 18, 2013)

> 1. Blond not-Fae archer with violet eyes (Vidar)



'blondtop', 'blond abomination'



> 2. Dark-haired not-Fae with violet eyes (Birgir)



'darktop', 'dark abomination'



> 3. Blonde human archer with hazel eyes (ÃstriÃ°r)



'archer', 'bowman'



> 4. Blond human man with a bearskin cloak and blue eyes like the captive's (BjÃ¶rn)



'bear'



> 5. Unarmed blond human man (Ardghal)



?



> 6. Dark-skinned not-Fae with grey eyes (Gunnar)



'brown abomination', 'mudman'



> 7. Silver-haired not-Fae (Ãšlfr)



'silvertop'



> 8. Brunette human woman with a sword (ArnbjÃ¶rg)



'warrior woman'

[/quote]

Might be some conflation on the part of the MC; lot of people to keep track of.


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## Ireth (Apr 18, 2013)

Ireth said:


> 6. Dark-skinned not-Fae with grey eyes (Gunnar)



Realized this when ThinkerX quoted it -- that's supposed to be dark-HAIRED, not dark-skinned. Light elves have light skin, black elves have dark skin, and Gunnar is the former.

@ThinkerX: those might work, though I doubt the POV character would go so far as to call the light elves "abominations", since they actually tried to help him at the start of the previous chapter when his friend was injured. It's their enemies, the black-elves, whom he'd call the abominations.


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## wordwalker (Apr 18, 2013)

There are a couple other things you can do. One is to let him have heard rumors so that he soon figures out some of the people he's facing. The other is to have one of them yell "Vidar, duck!" and then he knows how to tag that one.

I think you could use a mix of rumors and "shoutouts" so that some people get comfortably named soon, leaving him to cover others with nicknames. (I also think his choice in nicknames would emphasize what he's most interested in right now: either what weapon or abilities they're threatening him with or what their attitude seems to be-- and if he's got actual names for many of them, he won't need to be as multi-trait specific in nicknaming the ones that are left.) You could end up with a good mix of some nicknames to capture his uncertainty, but the characters that are more important or least clear to the reader would still be named.


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## Ireth (Apr 18, 2013)

wordwalker said:


> There are a couple other things you can do. One is to let him have heard rumors so that he soon figures out some of the people he's facing.



Possibly, but I'm not sure. The humans don't typically leave their settlement without need, and they haven't really done much to garner rumors being spread about them. As for the elves, only Vidar has even been to that place before, and only for a short time. Not really long enough to have rumors spread about him, either. The four elves have only been where they are now for less than a day.



wordwalker said:


> The other is to have one of them yell "Vidar, duck!" and then he knows how to tag that one.
> 
> I think you could use a mix of rumors and "shoutouts" so that some people get comfortably named soon, leaving him to cover others with nicknames. (I also think his choice in nicknames would emphasize what he's most interested in right now: either what weapon or abilities they're threatening him with or what their attitude seems to be-- and if he's got actual names for many of them, he won't need to be as multi-trait specific in nicknaming the ones that are left.) You could end up with a good mix of some nicknames to capture his uncertainty, but the characters that are more important or least clear to the reader would still be named.



Maybe. I'm not sure how much they'll be inclined to use names, since the rescuers are mostly just focused on "get our friend / brother / husband / father out of there alive, and don't get killed". There's not going to be a big fight, more like a tense standoff. By the time names are going to be spoken, most of them won't matter, because those named will be leaving the scene.


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## ThinkerX (Apr 19, 2013)

I need more sleep.  Otherwise, this might have registered:



> The POV character has taken a man captive to torture him out of misguided revenge, and the man's family and friends soon show up to save him. The POV character knows the name of his captive, but not those of the family or friends, which makes things problematic when all eight would-be rescuers show up at the same time



How long does the POV character have this fellow captive?  If it is more than a few minutes, I suggest having the interrogation solve some of your problems: the captive names the 'not fae' as 'elves' and provides a one or a two sentence overview as to what the POV character is really dealing with.  Maybe dropping names of some of the rescuers who show up shortly afterward, especially if the POV character saw any of them earlier.  

Therefor, when the big scene takes place, the POV character mentally goes 'that blond elf must be Vidar.'  The ones he can't put proper names to from the interrogation get the quickie descriptions I mentioned earlier, appropriately modified: 'dark haired elf', ect.


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## Ireth (Apr 19, 2013)

ThinkerX said:


> How long does the POV character have this fellow captive?  If it is more than a few minutes, I suggest having the interrogation solve some of your problems: the captive names the 'not fae' as 'elves' and provides a one or a two sentence overview as to what the POV character is really dealing with.  Maybe dropping names of some of the rescuers who show up shortly afterward, especially if the POV character saw any of them earlier.
> 
> Therefor, when the big scene takes place, the POV character mentally goes 'that blond elf must be Vidar.'  The ones he can't put proper names to from the interrogation get the quickie descriptions I mentioned earlier, appropriately modified: 'dark haired elf', ect.



That would be more feasible if the POV character was interested in anything other than torturing his captive. At the moment he couldn't care less what the elves are -- he just wants to get his revenge on his captive, who had tried and failed to save his dying friend. (Horribly disproportionate? Yes, that's the whole point.) He doesn't even start to really wonder what they are until after the conflict is over, and the captive is rescued and taken back home by his family. He basically says as they're all leaving, "Hey, wait, you guys with the pointy ears, don't go just yet. What *are* you?" Then the explanation happens, and more plot ensues.


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## Ireth (Apr 19, 2013)

Adding to my previous post, since I left it too long to edit: the POV character does speak to his captive, but it's not so much "What are those pointy-eared guys who tried to help me? Huh? What are they?!" as "Do you know why you're here? Do you? You let my best friend die, that's why. I don't care that you tried to help him, he still died. Now you have to suffer like he did. I'm going to stab you in the shoulder with this red-hot knife, see how you like that! Hurts, doesn't it? Good!"

Also, the POV character doesn't learn any of the elves' names in the scene where he meets them, as they're all too busy trying to save the POV character's dying friend to worry about things like introductions. And the torture/rescue scene is only the second time he sees them.


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## Jess A (Apr 19, 2013)

This may have already been mentioned - but you can use personality traits. For example, if the blonde person scowled straight away or started laughing (for example), you could base it on that. 'Smiley' for a person who always smiles.

I have this problem a lot. I assign nicknames sometimes. It's a pain because it always seems to look messy when I do it. I sympathise - could you post the scene and let us have a look? Write up a couple of versions maybe.


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## Rob P (Apr 19, 2013)

Most of the time when we are confronted with a gaggle of new people we instantly tag them based upon physical attributes.

Not just hair colour although one could be called Blondie. There is size, small or tall (knee-high, lankey, tree-top), thin or thick (bean pole, stick, waif, tree trunk, barn door), shouts a lot (gobby, screamer). Use his hands a lot (Thumper), hair tied in a certain way (top-knot), no hair (slaphead).

Just a few suggestions


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## Guru Coyote (Apr 19, 2013)

Looks like you wrote yourself into a nice trap here 

Your POV char couldn't care less about who is who, for him they are just a bunch of would-be rescuers, disturbing him in his revenge.
The only reason to distinguish between the eight is for the reader's benefit...
If this scene is to be told "as he experiences it," eight people showing up at the same time would simply be a blur of faces, basically a crowd, a bit like the villagers with torches and pikes.

How close is your narration to the POV char? Is this first-person? In that case, I'd say... the rescuers are "a bunch of intruders," and your narration would need to reflect that. Is your POV char a skilled tactician (street fighting etc.)? I think he'd need to be to distinguish between eight people showing up at the same time...


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## Steerpike (Apr 19, 2013)

They could all be wearing shirts with their names embroidered on the front.


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## Ireth (Apr 19, 2013)

Jess A said:


> This may have already been mentioned - but you can use personality traits. For example, if the blonde person scowled straight away or started laughing (for example), you could base it on that. 'Smiley' for a person who always smiles.



That might be problematic, since they'd all be showing the same limited range of emotions -- shock, horror and anger is about the extent of it. None of them are the type to smile or laugh in such a tense situation.



Jess A said:


> I have this problem a lot. I assign nicknames sometimes. It's a pain because it always seems to look messy when I do it. I sympathise - could you post the scene and let us have a look? Write up a couple of versions maybe.



Well, I'm in the middle of the scene at the moment, and I'm stuck at exactly the point where the rescuers arrive. Might be a bit hard to work with if it's incomplete, IMO. But maybe not.



Rob P said:


> Most of the time when we are confronted with a gaggle of new people we instantly tag them based upon physical attributes.
> 
> Not just hair colour although one could be called Blondie. There is size, small or tall (knee-high, lankey, tree-top), thin or thick (bean pole, stick, waif, tree trunk, barn door), shouts a lot (gobby, screamer). Use his hands a lot (Thumper), hair tied in a certain way (top-knot), no hair (slaphead).
> 
> Just a few suggestions



I'll think about that some more. Thanks. ^^



Guru Coyote said:


> Looks like you wrote yourself into a nice trap here
> 
> Your POV char couldn't care less about who is who, for him they are just a bunch of would-be rescuers, disturbing him in his revenge.
> The only reason to distinguish between the eight is for the reader's benefit...
> If this scene is to be told "as he experiences it," eight people showing up at the same time would simply be a blur of faces, basically a crowd, a bit like the villagers with torches and pikes.



True enough. The only thing making them not a blur of random faces is the fact that he's seen half of them (i.e. the elves) before, but even then he still doesn't know their names.



Guru Coyote said:


> How close is your narration to the POV char? Is this first-person? In that case, I'd say... the rescuers are "a bunch of intruders," and your narration would need to reflect that. Is your POV char a skilled tactician (street fighting etc.)? I think he'd need to be to distinguish between eight people showing up at the same time...



It's 3rd person limited, so fairly close. He is a warrior of sorts, though that doesn't become too obvious until he's actually in a position to lead an army to battle.



Steerpike said:


> They could all be wearing shirts with their names embroidered on the front.



Heheh. I'm not sure how effective that would be. 7/8 of them would be written in Futhark runes, which the POV character has never seen before and thus can't read. And the one who'd have his name in a script the POV character understands is at the back of the group, so his shirt wouldn't be easily read. XD


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## Addison (Apr 20, 2013)

It sounds like you're describing the scene, and the rescuers, from YOUR pov. We as the author see how things look and feel to us in our heads. But when writing scenes in the story (unless omniscient) have to write them from the pov of the character. What we make find intoxicating, they could find disgusting etc. So while you may call one of the rescuers "the blonde one", put yourself in the character's shoes: his personality, his feelings at the time of the scene, and "the blonde one" could become..."the brat" or "the child".  Try telling the scene from the character's view point, in their eyes, their personality.


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## Ireth (Apr 20, 2013)

Addison said:


> It sounds like you're describing the scene, and the rescuers, from YOUR pov. We as the author see how things look and feel to us in our heads. But when writing scenes in the story (unless omniscient) have to write them from the pov of the character. What we make find intoxicating, they could find disgusting etc. So while you may call one of the rescuers "the blonde one", put yourself in the character's shoes: his personality, his feelings at the time of the scene, and "the blonde one" could become..."the brat" or "the child".  Try telling the scene from the character's view point, in their eyes, their personality.



Well, Vidar has become "the coward" due to shooting an arrow at Cadell from a vantage point in the trees, and the younger of the two women could be "the child" or "the girl", but as for the others I'm not sure yet.


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## Addison (Apr 20, 2013)

Try looking at the rescuers from your POV's encounters with them. If he hasn't seen them, ever, before the rescue, how do they first interact/react in that moment. Does one of them fire a warning shot into his favorite pillow? Call him a name? There you have "Jerk" and "Potty Mouth". 

Maybe he can learn their names, real or nick names, if the hostage calls at them.


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## Ireth (Apr 20, 2013)

Addison said:


> Try looking at the rescuers from your POV's encounters with them. If he hasn't seen them, ever, before the rescue, how do they first interact/react in that moment. Does one of them fire a warning shot into his favorite pillow? Call him a name? There you have "Jerk" and "Potty Mouth".
> 
> Maybe he can learn their names, real or nick names, if the hostage calls at them.



He's seen the elves exactly once before, and the humans not at all. The POV character was too busy freaking out over his dying friend to pay much attention to the elves besides Vidar, who was the first one to come forward and help. Vidar is also the one who, in this scene, fires a warning shot and earns the nickname "coward"; that's the point I'm stuck at. Also, if the hostage isn't unconscious by the time the rescuers get there (depending on what I do in the next draft), he'll almost certainly be gagged after the POV character is done ranting at him and listening to his "excuses".


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## Guru Coyote (Apr 21, 2013)

Addison, you have good points. The trick for this scene (I imagine) is to do both though: to describe what is going on from the POV character's personality... and yet ALSO let the reader know who is doing what. There needs to be a way for the reader to map the POV names/descriptions/nicks to the characters we already know from earlier chapters. (you did say the rescurers are established characters, Ireth?)


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## Ireth (Apr 21, 2013)

Guru Coyote said:


> There needs to be a way for the reader to map the POV names/descriptions/nicks to the characters we already know from earlier chapters. (you did say the rescurers are established characters, Ireth?)



The elves and BjÃ¶rn are, but Ardghal, ÃstriÃ°r and ArnbjÃ¶rg have not yet been introduced (though I'm thinking of remedying that with a scene added between two earlier ones). This is meant as the latter two's Establishing Character Moment, risking their lives to confront the Fae and rescue their kinsman.


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## Addison (Apr 21, 2013)

Right now I'm getting a feeling that the captor is a jerk. Like he has a grudge or vendetta against elves. Every person I know, however few, who has a thing against people with ethnic differences has some choice names for them. Obviously I'm not close with these people. But if the captor does have something against elves maybe that can give you some ideas for names.


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## Ireth (Apr 21, 2013)

Addison said:


> Right now I'm getting a feeling that the captor is a jerk. Like he has a grudge or vendetta against elves. Every person I know, however few, who has a thing against people with ethnic differences has some choice names for them. Obviously I'm not close with these people. But if the captor does have something against elves maybe that can give you some ideas for names.



It's not elves he has the vendetta against, it's humans. He hasn't got a clue what elves are, since these are the first he's ever seen. All he knows is that they're a little like Fae, but not really, and that they're friends with the humans he has a grudge against.


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## Alex Beecroft (Apr 22, 2013)

What I do is to have my POV character mentally give them names because of something they do, say or look like. I wouldn't go for descriptions that include a 'the'. It's too monotonous to have lots of people only known as 'the [whatever].

The first blond through the door could be Blondie. If one's got a sword and one's got a knife they can be Sword-guy and Knife-guy (or Sword-hand and Knife-hand if you're going for Fantasy Epic Speak). One guy sneers at the torturer - he's Sneer from that moment on. One shouts "No!" at the sight that greets him inside the torture chamber - he's Loudmouth.

Instead of calling your one guy 'the coward' alongside 'the sneak', 'the archer' and 'the one with purple eyes,' you call them Coward, Sneak, Archer and Violet, and it's much easier to follow. Temporary names for the win.


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## Ireth (Apr 22, 2013)

Alex Beecroft said:


> What I do is to have my POV character mentally give them names because of something they do, say or look like. I wouldn't go for descriptions that include a 'the'. It's too monotonous to have lots of people only known as 'the [whatever].
> 
> The first blond through the door could be Blondie. If one's got a sword and one's got a knife they can be Sword-guy and Knife-guy (or Sword-hand and Knife-hand if you're going for Fantasy Epic Speak). One guy sneers at the torturer - he's Sneer from that moment on. One shouts "No!" at the sight that greets him inside the torture chamber - he's Loudmouth.
> 
> Instead of calling your one guy 'the coward' alongside 'the sneak', 'the archer' and 'the one with purple eyes,' you call them Coward, Sneak, Archer and Violet, and it's much easier to follow. Temporary names for the win.



Well, I've mentioned above that not every physical descriptor is unique enough to serve as a nickname in itself. There are four blonds in the group (who all arrive at basically the same time, though only seven are visible). Five of the eight have swords, two are archers (one of the latter being Vidar "the coward"), and one is unarmed. There are also two with violet eyes, Vidar and his father Birgir. Also, minor note, it's not so much a "torture chamber" as a "torture clearing in the woods".


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## Addison (Apr 22, 2013)

So they come crashing through the brush? So maybe you can nick-name them on a tree they jump from, a berry smeared on their face or something.


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## Ireth (Apr 22, 2013)

Well, it's the middle of winter, so there aren't any berries left. The tree-names thing is feasible, though. ^^


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## Addison (Apr 22, 2013)

Winter? Ice! If one of them slips on ice, "Slippy", they belly-slide down a snowy hill, "penguin", a big one comes crashing through the branches, "Yeti".


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## Ireth (Apr 22, 2013)

Addison said:


> Winter? Ice! If one of them slips on ice, "Slippy", they belly-slide down a snowy hill, "penguin", a big one comes crashing through the branches, "Yeti".



I'll keep that in mind for the next draft. ^^ I've already made progress in this one, and since this draft is longhand, it's trickier to edit without erasing big chunks at a time or scribbling in the margins. I like my drafts neat and legible. Notes are for post-its. ^^


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## Addison (Apr 23, 2013)

Love post-its. ^^ Except when they fall off. 

I'm trying a new editing process, one of four steps. 

1. Edit as I go. I write so much one day, the next day, before I write, I go over what I wrote. When I've gotten to the end, it's my first draft. 

2. After spending time away from it I read it on the computer from beginning to end. This becomes my second draft. (I save each draft separately)

3. Giving space to the second draft I print out the story (by chapters, otherwise it costs a fortune and a heart attack on windy days) i read it, make comments, doodles and sarcastic notes. I go back and follow the notes. This is my third draft. 

4. I print it out again, or by computer (printed's better for me), and read it aloud. Either to my kid brother, wall, cereal, dog, my reflection. Just aloud to hear how it sounds. If there's a part that drags, where I stumble or yawn, I make a note and fix it. 

Try it out. Works great...I'm only on step 3 but it's terrific so far.


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