# Food on the road - what to take and forage for during travel



## Jess A (May 23, 2013)

*Travel Menu*

Hi all, 

I was looking at the fantasy writer's quiz and saw the comment about on-road stews and how they are unrealistic and a cliche. So I thought, why not make a thread talking about the possibilities of on-road meals? This will be heavily based on setting. What do your characters eat whilst on road? What do they bring with them? Salted meat, for instance. Hard biscuits. What do they gather?

I have two characters who know plants/herbs/mushrooms well - helpful in some seasons, some areas, but not if nothing is growing. I have a shape-shifter who becomes a medium-sized cat. But when he hunts, only a percentage of his kills are successful - because in the real world, leopards and wolves and eagles don't catch something every time. They can trap. They can carry certain foods with them.

It might be useful for writers to compile a bit of a list here of foods in historical times that made for good travelling. A lot of writers have travel scenes, love them or hate them! If you're posting examples, make sure you tell us the setting. For example, Jabrosky's setting is, if I recall rightly, somewhat prehistoric, so that will be different to my setting, which is just standard European, Canadian ecosystems. I also have tundra ecosystems.

For forage items, this is my list:

- Berries (I invent a lot)
- Shrubs, herbs, certain bark
- Certain fungi/mushrooms (some are deadly of course)
- Prey - mammals, birds, lizards, insects/worms
- Roots and bulbs
- Fruits 
- Water
- Nuts, seeds, flowers, etc
- Stuff for their mounts to forage on (most of the mounts aren't horses - they are opportunistic beasts)

If none of that is about and it's the wrong season, they'd better hope they have enough rations with them, and can stock up at places on the way. They can't guarantee that stuff will even be available.

Give me your lists, as well as what they take with them and if it's specific to your land.


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## Devor (May 23, 2013)

Well, you forgot eggs.  But any kind of foraging is going to be a problem if your goal is to travel.  You could stop to forage and hunt, gather food that will last for a few days, and then continue on.  But if you're foraging you're not travelling.

If you're travelling more than a few days, you're talking about dried fruits, jerky, nuts and hardtack, like a weird bag of trail mix.


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## tlbodine (May 24, 2013)

Devor said:


> Well, you forgot eggs.  But any kind of foraging is going to be a problem if your goal is to travel.  You could stop to forage and hunt, gather food that will last for a few days, and then continue on.  But if you're foraging you're not travelling.
> 
> If you're travelling more than a few days, you're talking about dried fruits, jerky, nuts and hardtack, like a weird bag of trail mix.



This.  It's quite rare that you're going to "happen upon" your breakfast while you're on the road.  Hunting/foraging and traveling are two different actions with different methods and goals, it's pretty hard to do both at the same time. 

Here's one that's not already on the list: Milk, in particular, is a valuable food to a nomadic tribe -- because it's so much easier to take a single cow with you and drink its milk indefinitely than to kill the cow and have to lug around its meat/worry about keeping the meat fresh/worry about cooking the meat. Double bonus if the lactating creature doubles as a beast of burden/mount.


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## CupofJoe (May 24, 2013)

Devor said:


> If you're travelling more than a few days, you're talking about dried fruits, jerky, nuts and hardtack, like a weird bag of trail mix.


Many cultures have versions of Pemmican that is really just a mix of all of the above with extra fat!
Porridge is a staple for many long distance trekkers - add water, milk and even beer and meat [I've had mutton porridge and it is good and filling!].
Dried beans are also good if available.
So are spices... you can put up with a lot of porridge and beans if you can change/hide their original taste.
Cheese can lost a long time especially if it is sealed. [Correct me if I'm wrong but...] Waxed cheeses were developed for Dutch sailors and were reported to last for years...


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## Queshire (May 24, 2013)

Huh, I never really thought about this. The woods between the cities in my setting are extremely dangerous, but there's no lack of food if you don't mind the taste or the traces of magical radiation in monster meat. Most of the time you don't even have to hunt it 'cause it'll be hunting you. One of the main characters is an Orc who served an honorable service as a steward in the army of the Orcish Empire so he's used to making great meals out of meager ingredients. There's also plenty of fruits, vegtables, herbs, and so on, though those tend to have a much higher chance of weird magical side-effects than simple monster meat. Really, food in my world isn't much of a concern so long as you're strong enough to avoid ending up something else's lunch.

That said, there's also various rations you can bring with you from the towns if you want to avoid the chance of magical contamination or getting your face chewed off, fish, jerky, the whole nine yards. In particular, there's a particular potato-like thing (I'm thinking of calling it Gnome-root) that can grow in just about any type of soil, keeps for years, and contains all the nutrients you need to survive at the cost of tasting like something that can grow in just about any type of soil, keeps for years, and contains all the nutrients you need to survive.


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## PaulineMRoss (May 24, 2013)

I don't really understand the prejudice against stew. It's the absolute basic hot meal, and all it needs is water, a fire, a single pot and whatever bits and pieces of food the characters have to hand. If you can get a fire going quick enough, you can be eating in less than an hour. After the supper stew is gone, fill the pot with grains and water, leave it in the embers of the fire and you have your morning porridge. Set snares overnight to trap rabbits or whatever for tomorrow's stew. Vegetables are harder, because you need a lot and you have to either find them and dig them up, or find a friendly farmer to trade with. Or steal them from the farmer, possibly. 

You can live well on stew or its weaker cousin, soup. It's a lot more realistic as a journey meal than spit-roasting moose.


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## Butterfly (May 24, 2013)

Potatoes -- just chuck them in the fire and you'll soon have amazing baked pots.

Might be worth a look at Drovers and how they moved from place to place. Travellers would often group up with them as it was safer to travel in larger groups, and they also knew the roads.

The Drovers of Snowdonia

The Drovers &mdash; Brecon Beacons National Park Authority

A day in the life of a drover : Scotland Magazine Issue 38


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## Tom (May 24, 2013)

I have a stew meal in my WIP--just a brace of rabbits and a few wild onions thrown into a pot and simmered for a while. My MC is a hunter/woodsman, so he has a fairly good understanding of edible plants. Another character, a healer, knows all about edible plants, healing herbs, and poisonous stuff. 
My world's ecosystem is basically northeastern-US deciduous woodlands, where I live, so to see what's growin' I just have to take a quick hike in the woods in back of my house.

Here's a list of my world's edible stuff:
Plants
Bulbs and tubers
Eggs
Game such as deer, squirrels, rabbits, etc
Freshwater fish such as brook trout and perch
Nuts
Mushrooms (kinda risky, as it's hard to tell what's toxic and what's not)
Tree bark (if you're that desperate--unless it's sassafrass. That makes a good tea when boiled.)

I didn't include berries on this list because berries are extremely hard to identify. What looks like an innocent cluster of edible berries may easily be the most toxic plant in the region. If you come across berries in the woods and aren't sure what they are, do not Do Not DO NOT eat them!!!

My characters bring along hard rations, which in their world is jerked venison or beef, dried fruit, a waterskin, and waybread. waybread is basically a fancy word for hardtack, the hardest, most disgusting substance known to man. It looks and tastes like dried play-doh.
If you want to find out more about living on the move, see if there are reenactments in your area. I recently went to a mountain man demo, a Civil War reenactment, and a flintknapping and atlatl demo. I learned a lot--how to light a fire with flint and steel, how to tan a deer hide, find water, correctly orient yourself without a compass, and much more indispensible information!


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## wordwalker (May 24, 2013)

Tom Nimenai said:


> I recently went to a mountain man demo, a Civil War reenactment, and a flintknapping and atlatl demo. I learned a lot--how to light a fire with flint and steel, how to tan a deer hide, find water, correctly orient yourself without a compass, and much more indispensible information!



Atlatls? Good to see those are still remembered-- and that sounds like a good survival skill.

(An atlatl is a wooden "arm extender" for throwing javelins, nearly as good as some bows and a lot easier to make from scratch.)


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## Tom (May 24, 2013)

I'm thinking about crafting my own atlatl. I made a bow and sling, so why not? Atlatls are an integral part of our heritage, as is flintknapping, the ancient art of chipping arrowheads, knives, spearheads, and the like out of stone such as flint and obsidian. 

I live in an area originally inhabited by the Seneca indians (might be descended from them, in fact), and I love heritage arts. Luckily for me, there are a lot of people in my area who share my passion!


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## Saigonnus (May 24, 2013)

Even traveling a person with a sling/bow and good aim can manage a crow, squirrel etc... on the fly as it were. Anytime you are resting the horse (whether you stop somewhere or simply walk the horse) would be a perfect time to consider at least keeping your eyes peeled for game. In wilderness areas you may not get something with every stone you throw or arrow you fire, but the game is likely more plentiful from the lack of human/elvish/dwarvish encroachment. I would think a regular joe in the middle ages/dark ages etc... would eat just about anything they could scrounge up; often to the detriment of their belly and bowels.


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## Malik (May 25, 2013)

Hunting is extremely labor-intensive. Setting snares around camp is standard procedure in a survival situation -- or, if you just want to make your trail food taste better. Snares are low-maintenance and generally produce once you understand how to set them. The trick is to set several; at least one on every game trail around or through your campsite. They are, literally, set and forget. Snares close to camp will wake you up when they produce.

The best food is fresh food, though, meaning food that travels along with you. Small ungulates who can walk on their own, or perhaps squab or rabbits in cages on a cart or a packhorse. Rabbits would be good because they're quiet. Well, quieter than, say, small goats.


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## Jess A (May 25, 2013)

Hi guys,

I haven't been on for a couple of days - thanks for all the responses! I forgot eggs and another seriously obvious one - fish. 

I figured my shape-shifter, given he doesn't enjoy the company of the humans for the most part, will be hunting occasionally and scouting ahead. Problem is, cats and many wild animals don't have a high success rate when hunting. But unlike most cats, his kind has a lot of stamina for general travel. Just not intensive hunting.

It's the stuff to carry along that I haven't done the research in. I'm definitely aware that foraging takes up time. You guys have given me (and perhaps some others on the board) lots of ideas for things to take. Cheese, pickled eggs - could they take a laying hen? The shifter might eat the animals if not watched, though.

As some said above - foraging can happen when resting horses/mounts and traps can be set around the camp. Trail mixes are good. 

The Duke has a small number of guards and his primary group, plus the shape-shifter and a herbalist/his head witch. They're going to be away for a while, because they're searching for something and they don't always have places to stop and buy things. 

Instead of a cow - what about a billy goat or two for milk and emergency slaughter? *Edit*: _NANNY_ goat. Poor billy!

Pemmican was mentioned on another thread - useful reference.

On stew - I don't see the issue with stew if they're camping overnight - agreeing with Pauline on that point.

Travelling with others is a great point, Butterfly (thanks for the links) - I daresay many of the routes they take will have travellers. Not all would be hostile. If they came across drovers with their animals - I think the shape-shifter might try to take some. That could be a fun scene.

Hm wild onions was another I forgot. And waybread, another I thought of but couldn't remember the name. I suppose the herbalist could sneak a pot of honey with her! Or some sort of jam she's made. Don't think it'd make an awful lot of difference to the hardtack.  

There are interesting ways to cook things like fish, too. Need to look into it again. 

So far, the list of things to take with you:

- Trail mix (nuts, seeds, dried fruits, hardtack, jerky etc)
- Water obviously
- Dried meat and dried fish
- Cheese
- Live animals for milk, maybe slaughter (goats)
- Hens/ducks? Or too hard?
- Waybread/hardtack
- Pickled items?
- Dried fruit
- Potatoes - wouldn't those weigh quite a bit?
- Porridge - oats/grains and things?
- Perhaps some spices for the good Duke. 

That said, what about equipment? What cooking gear/hunting/snares etc stuff will they take - the simplest, lightest, most basic sorts of things. Because they do want to travel light where possible. And how many pack animals per person (or rather, how many people per pack animal)? To start, my group has about 8 people. It does dwindle a little to just a few. Assuming a fair distance, since the Duke isn't welcome in certain places (unless disguised, though I doubt he'd be recognised anyway since there's no television and social media - heh). Nonetheless in many cases they need to stick to wilder areas. Because of this, they can't easily swap their mounts - but while they are travelling fast, they aren't travelling super fast. They can rest the mounts and such. It's just not enormous royal caravan slow.


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## Ireth (May 25, 2013)

Just a quick comment -- a billy goat would be no good for milk. "Billy" is the term for a male. You'd need a nanny goat instead. ^^


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## Jess A (May 25, 2013)

Ireth said:


> Just a quick comment -- a billy goat would be no good for milk. "Billy" is the term for a male. You'd need a nanny goat instead. ^^



Haha no sh*t. Sorry --- _nanny_ goat. I'm still hovering over a cup of coffee ... 

But a billy goat might be a good addition to protect his nanny goat? Hehe!


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## Tevaras (May 26, 2013)

Jess A said:


> <snip content>
> 
> Because they do want to travel light where possible. And how many pack animals per person (or rather, how many people per pack animal)? To start, my group has about 8 people. It does dwindle a little to just a few. Assuming a fair distance, since the Duke isn't welcome in certain places (unless disguised, though I doubt he'd be recognised anyway since there's no television and social media - heh). Nonetheless in many cases they need to stick to wilder areas. Because of this, they can't easily swap their mounts - but while they are travelling fast, they aren't travelling super fast. They can rest the mounts and such. It's just not enormous royal caravan slow.



Good morning Jess A,
I hope this is not too much detail (you can always not read it all), but the following links have some interesting details on food 
requirements for military forces in the field (which I assume is the nearest 'real' life equivalent to the Duke's party travelling) and pack 
animal carrying capacity and food requirements, amongst other interesting details. Of course creatures in your world may be 
different.
Medieval Logistics: English Experience (based on Prestwich, Armies and Warfare, Allmand, Hundred Years War, Contamine, War in the Middle Ages: - this has some details historical details on daily food 
requirements for men and horses.
Medieval_Logistics - this one has similar details.
Pack Transport with Donkeys | Practical Answers | Practical Action - carrying capacity of donkeys.
Feeding donkeys - food capacity of donkeys
Methods to Calculate How Much Weight A Horse Can Carry - horsetype.com - For all types of horse lovers! - horse carrying capacity (beyond third line gets a little detailed).
It is a fair bit of reading, so the executive summary from the second link:
- a soldier requires three pounds of food per day
- a horse requires 20 pounds of food per day
Looking at carrying capacity of a donkey, the typical donkey can carry (assuming no cart, which would be more difficult to move off 
road) about 40 kg to 50 kg (Pack Transport with Donkeys | Practical Answers | Practical Action).
A horse carrying capacity is around 20% of the animal's mass. So a 1000 lb horse can carry around 200 lb 
(Methods to Calculate How Much Weight A Horse Can Carry - horsetype.com - For all types of horse lovers!).
Feeding the donkey is different to horses (mentioned in other links) as their metabolism is more efficient than a horse. For a 200 to 
300 kg donkey carrying a 25 to 70 kg load travelling at 4 kph for six hours per day should eat around 500 g of coarsely ground maize 
and sorghum and 2.5 kg of chaff. Some chaff could be replaced with hay or straw. This ration should be given in the morning, and 
then again at night (Feeding donkeys).
I hope this helps you.


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## T.Allen.Smith (May 26, 2013)

Jess,

I'm going off on a different track here & it's meant to be constructive.  

I honestly wouldn't worry too much about what the characters are eating & drinking. Yes, details like these can add some texture and ambiance (I wanted to say flavor) to a scene. Yet, I've never finished a story and thought about foods the characters ate. Unless the fare has some relevance to the story, I wouldn't overly stress about their culinary options.

That being said, if your style involves ultra-accurate representations of background detail or heavy amounts of description, then by all means, go for it. It's been my experience that some author's tend to get bogged down in world building detail at the expense of the story. 

Now, onto some practical notes. If you've ever eaten wild game you'd find stewing meat makes a lot of sense. Small game especially can have a gamy taste and often is rather tough. Stewing the meat aids in making the food palatable and easier to chew/digest. So, wherever you read about the cliche of road stews....well if it's cliche it is so for a reason...because it was done a lot. With most game meat, a brine of onion and salt can do wonders...in the field though, you won't be brining. You'll stew it or you'll cook with a spit.

Another point, depending on your setting, small game could be rather plentiful and scored without the extensive hunting or time commitment that slows travel. Also, if you're going to take big game, you'd better have a large group. One deer can feed a lot of people. If you don't have a way to preserve the meat (like a smoking rack, which takes time) it's going to waste quickly.


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## Jess A (May 26, 2013)

Guys: I'm not allowed to give any more thanks today it seems! Will remedy that in 24 hours. Because I really am thankful!

Tevaras: That's great - that's a lot of math/working out, but I think a lot of people (including me) will find that useful nonetheless! Thanks for the links - I think this will help me with armies/battle, as well. The first link for instance has some good facts to add a bit of realism to the story. That way I don't stumble over something and say 'the Duke counted 10 pack animals' or 'the Duke supplied his troops with meals three times a day'. 

T.Allen.Smith: That's true of course - what are the chances I'm going to describe more than 1% of what I learn? Probably sod all, but I enjoy learning about this sort of stuff and it's not really detracting from my writing time. I set aside particular times to write - usually the evenings - and have learned to ban research for the writing period unless really stuck on a small, specific point.

There are a few plot points on this. Plus, I have a strong need for context - just in case I do have to mention something, and it's not quite coming to mind. That way I have information to pull from, even if the reader only hears about that one little point, while the rest remains in my head.

The info about game meat is relevant due to the shape-shifter. He has to pull his weight as well. He won't do all of the hunting, but I think he would be looked at first. Besides, he can scout and hunt while the others travel, because he would prefer to be doing something else other than being in their company.

---

Thanks again guys for the great information! Keep the ideas coming. I'd like to hear about other people's settings as well!


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## Tevaras (May 26, 2013)

Tevaras said:


> <snip>
> It is a fair bit of reading, so the executive summary from the second link:
> - a soldier requires three pounds of food per day
> - a horse requires 20 pounds of food per day
> <snip>



Good evening Jess A,

Arrgh! I just read the first URL in more detail (Medieval Logistics: English Experience (based on Prestwich, Armies and Warfare, Allmand, Hundred Years War, Contamine, War in the Middle Ages:), it contradicts the second:


> and the daily consumption rate would have been 6kg of human food and 16.8 kgs of dry fodder


versus (Medieval_Logistics)


> Each man needed three pounds of food a day, and the livestock needed 20 pounds


Somewhat higher than the details in the second link. I _hate_ giving incorrect information :redface:,
sorry about that. Both pages looked like they were from reputable sources. You (and others) will have to decide which figures work better for you (them). Possibly the differences are due to some different assumptions about weight carried, grazing versus fodder etc. I'm not really qualified to judge, not my specialty.

For the thanks, you are welcome , glad you find the details it interesting.


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## Devor (May 26, 2013)

Since we're talking about food, here's something from Wikipedia about US military rations prior to the civil war.  It's the wrong time period, but it's pretty precise.  Bullets are added for emphasis.  That's in Garrison, though, not during travel.



			
				Garrison ration said:
			
		

> During the American revolution, the Continental Congress regulated garrison rations, stipulating in the Militia Law of 1775 that they should consist of:
> 
> 
> One pound of beef, or 3/4 of a pound of pork or one pound of fish, per day.
> ...



Also, I'm moving this thread to the Research forum.


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## Jess A (May 26, 2013)

Tevaras: No worries - generally that just means a bit of side research (and quite a bit of mathematics by the looks of it!). I'll modify figures according to my world in any case. Then you've got the conversion between pounds and kg as well - so yes that is very inconsistent. You've got 6kg of food which is about 13 pounds (I'm guesstimating) a day versus 3 pounds which is roughly 1.3kg or something. I could be completely wrong here.

Devor: I did consider posting it in the research forum - originally the thread was to incorporate other people's fantasy settings and invented foods, but only one person told me about their setting/food! So I guess now it's more real-world discussion.

Thanks also for the military list - that's very helpful as it gives a basic list. I can work out whether my characters can obtain everything on the list. Again - this is helpful for armies as well.


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## Tevaras (May 27, 2013)

Good evening Jess A,

I did think about conversions, but knowing my luck I would have converted to kg when your world is in pounds, or vice versa! The unit inconsistency I was not overly worried about, after all some countries still use Imperial units - it just depends on what nationality web site you go to.

You are spot on, there is (near enough to) 2.2 lb. to the kg.

Therefore (to supply all units in S.I.):
3 lb. = 1.36 kg (one link's claim of food per man per day)
20 lb. = 9.07 kg (one link's claim of food per horse per day)

I hope you have had a productive evening writing .


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## Jess A (May 27, 2013)

Tevaras said:


> Good evening Jess A,
> 
> I did think about conversions, but knowing my luck I would have converted to kg when your world is in pounds, or vice versa! The unit inconsistency I was not overly worried about, after all some countries still use Imperial units - it just depends on what nationality web site you go to.
> 
> ...



Yes indeed 

I think what I need to get out of the numbers is the number of pack animals needed for the group, and then just have a general idea of how to apply that to future group sizes, armies etc. 

Thanks - I've plotted out some scenes, and I need to get to writing them. I don't have many free days so I need to set aside a few hours to get the scenes done!


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## skip.knox (May 28, 2013)

The objection wasn't about stew _per se_, but rather that it takes several hours to make one. Not exactly the ideal meal for the traveller.

I don't have any specific suggestions, since everyone's fantasy world is going to have its own dynamic, but I'll add a wrinkle you might like to use, and it's drawn from real-world history: dietary change.

The case that I think of most readily is that of medieval pilgrims, specifically Germanic pilgrims headed either to Rome or to Jerusalem. These were accustomed to a certain diet. Once they hit Venice, though, (or Milan), they experienced a fairly dramatic change in diet, not least of which was the change from butter to oil. Many of them got sick. Pilgrim guide books in the north actually recommend taking at least some native food along in order to help ease the transition.

There's room there for a little bit of color for your own story.


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## Jess A (May 28, 2013)

skip.knox said:


> The objection wasn't about stew _per se_, but rather that it takes several hours to make one. Not exactly the ideal meal for the traveller.
> 
> I don't have any specific suggestions, since everyone's fantasy world is going to have its own dynamic, but I'll add a wrinkle you might like to use, and it's drawn from real-world history: dietary change.
> 
> ...



I love it. I think this could work very well for travel, especially if they cross the sea, or even cross the borders in some cases. Thanks for this - I could have some people get sick. I need to have the group dwindle down and sometimes having a monster attack them and treating them like cannon fodder is a bit...basic.


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## Tevaras (May 28, 2013)

skip.knox said:


> The objection wasn't about stew _per se_, but rather that it takes several hours to make one. Not exactly the ideal meal for the traveller.
> 
> <snip>



Depending on the territory they are travelling in, then setting watches overnight is plausible. In which case, the stew can be cooked overnight, ready for the morning breakfast perhaps? Gently stewing meat for hours - mmmmm, yummy!


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## Devor (May 28, 2013)

The issue with cooking a stew for hours isn't the time but the fuel.  That's a fire that has to be watched carefully, and that's not always realistic.  Also, many of the ingredients of a good stew wouldn't keep well.  If all you have is the meat from a rabbit you caught in a snare, you're probably better off with a stir fry than a stew.

I think some writers say "stew" as just a colorful word for soup.

I guess a stew is fine if the party has stopped to forage for a few days or isn't too far out from town.  I don't think it's realistic for a nightly meal.  Of course, a lot of times when we zoom in for a scene in the campsite, we pick the two or three days they've stopped to forage just to have more going on in the scene's background.  So even if the story is accurate, you'd still see stew a lot more often than you would expect to.

I mean it all depends.  How far, how fast, how many people, how frequent the stops . . . you could herd a flock of sheep and a caravan of open wagons full of soil and growing vegetables, driven by oxen.  Or you could have one guy with a horse trying to cut through enemy lines to deliver a message, who carries a few rations, goes hungry a lot, and knows the woods well enough to forage for himself.

There's no straightforward answer.  But the more people involved, the less believable it is to see them hunt and forage for food as their solution.  With a lot of people, you've got to have supply lines.


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## Jess A (May 29, 2013)

*Devor*: Good point about fuel. I've always really thought people made quick soup on the go, not stew. But the point about fire is a good one - in my world, at least, fire might draw some of the nastier, smarter woodland creatures out rather than scare them away.

It'll vary with different settings.

I think given the info, for my characters it will be a mix between foraging/hunting (mostly for the sake of the shape-shifter, who needs to eat a lot to survive and is also selfish enough to keep his kills to himself), carrying rations and a goat or two, and stopping at towns where safe. Just for my own context, even if I don't write about it much. The fact the shape-shifter has caught something and eaten it by himself will annoy the others greatly, so that's a point to mention since it causes conflict. Plus the need to go to a town to get food since it's not safe in some areas (but is in others).


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## CupofJoe (May 29, 2013)

Devor said:


> The issue with cooking a stew for hours isn't the  time but the fuel.  That's a fire that has to be watched carefully, and  that's not always realistic.


I agree however I've wild camped [no tent, no matches*** etc...] and in some strange places and just about ever camp-fire I've ever used has been use for cooking as it's secondary purpose. It is your source of warmth and light. It was a beacon and warning. [And its a good way to keep away the bugs if you can get it to smoke just a bit... but not too much.]
If you are in the wilds [let alone fantasy wilds] it is a good idea to have someone on watch at all times and it is a good and handy thing not to have to light a fire first thing in the morning. Dew can make it a lot harder than you think. A well banked small fire can be kept going [smouldering not flames] with surprisingly little wood.
I can only speak personally but I don't think I know anyone that would willingly wild camp without a fire...



Devor said:


> I think some writers say "stew" as just a colorful word for soup.


True! but I like a good soup.

*** Okay we had emergency matches and solid fuel stoves in case it got too rough...


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## Tevaras (May 29, 2013)

Jess A said:


> <snip>
> The fact the shape-shifter has caught something and eaten it by himself will annoy the others greatly, so that's a point to mention since it causes conflict. Plus the need to go to a town to get food since it's not safe in some areas (but is in others).



Good evening Jess A,

while we are on the subject of the shape-shifter - how does he/she feel about entering the towns? Or for that matter how do her/his companions feel about the shape-shifter entering town. Perhaps that could engender some interesting interplay?

Have a good evening.


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## Jess A (May 29, 2013)

Tevaras said:


> Good evening Jess A,
> 
> while we are on the subject of the shape-shifter - how does he/she feel about entering the towns? Or for that matter how do her/his companions feel about the shape-shifter entering town. Perhaps that could engender some interesting interplay?
> 
> Have a good evening.




Hi Tevaras,

To say there is tension would be an understatement. It's an enormous plot point, particularly as the shape-shifter is one of the main characters.

However, as far as entering towns go, the Duke has more to worry about than the shifter. He's an outlaw in the Kingdom they pass through 

Jess


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## SeverinR (May 29, 2013)

Tevaras said:


> Therefore (to supply all units in S.I.):
> 3 lb. = 1.36 kg (one link's claim of food per man per day)
> 20 lb. = 9.07 kg (one link's claim of food per horse per day)
> 
> I hope you have had a productive evening writing .



Just to clarify, the horse requirement is mostly hay, they don't eat 20 lbs of grain a day. So if you aren't in desert or frozen landscape, they can eat off the land a big portion of that 20lbs. If no grass, you will have to carry alot of hay with you. That said a horse should get water too(if no grass, probably no water) so 3-5 gallons a day of water per horse.
If a horse doesn't get enough grass(fiber) or water it can die from digestive issues.
So 10 horses will require a 50gallon barrel of water and 200lbs of food a day, not counting anything for humans.  Not a problem when you have lakes and streams and grass for them to eat, but without it, it adds up quickly.


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## Graylorne (May 29, 2013)

You don't really need a fire all night, if I remember well. You dig a hole, isolate it with straw and put in your kettle of stew piping hot. Cover it all and the next morning dig it out and it's ready and still warm. 

I agree with CupofJoe, a campfire is necessary for morale as much as for food. 

Still, hunting, skinning and preparing food cost a lot of time and won't work if you're in a hurry.


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## Jess A (May 29, 2013)

Graylorne said:


> You don't really need a fire all night, if I remember well. You dig a hole, isolate it with straw and put in your kettle of stew piping hot. Cover it all and the next morning dig it out and it's ready and still warm.
> 
> I agree with CupofJoe, a campfire is necessary for morale as much as for food.
> 
> Still, hunting, skinning and preparing food cost a lot of time and won't work if you're in a hurry.



The fire has some issues attached in my setting - no issues keeping it going all night, but it attracts a lot of nasty things (rather than repels). I fully intend to use this to my advantage in any case - for a scene.

---

Again, thanks guys for the conversation!


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## ALB2012 (Jun 14, 2013)

I have in various place in my world:
Rabbit
Pheasant/partridge/pigeon 
Boars (if you are brave)
Deer
Mutton/goat/pork/ham
Eggs
Fowls
Fish (many sorts)/clams/crabs/other shelfish
Milk (sheep, goats, ewes)
Cheeses ( as above)
Porridge
Oats
Bread/seedbreed (sort of flatbread)
Snake
Bats 
Mushrooms
Fruit/berries
Potatoes/root veggies
Lovage
Herbs
Maple seeds

Salamander (although all but one character refuses to eat it. Theoretically it is edible but you probably would have to be desperate.)


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## Ireth (Jun 14, 2013)

I wouldn't recommend eating bats; I've heard eating their meat can be a factor in dementia. That said, one of my characters is driven to do that when he's stuck in a cave with literally no other things to eat, so...


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## ALB2012 (Jun 15, 2013)

Same situation really, they have 7 people to feed and there food supplies are on the other side of the mountain. They manage to find the way out of the cave but they have wounded so they have to rest. So it is a case of eat what is available. They do manage to forage enough not to starve to death but there are some odd things to eat.


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## Tevaras (Jun 22, 2013)

Good evening Jess A,

somewhat remiss of me, I have not actually answered your question as to how many humans per pack animal. 
Instead I just gave you a pile of data, and left you to do all the calculations 
to arrive at a final number.

So, rather belatedly, here is the actual answer you originally asked for.

From what you have written and combining the information in the links posted earlier I will make the following (hopefully accurate) assumptions:
1. Water is readily available and does not need to transported by the party.
2. Only the transport of food is considered, as the amount of camping equipment is too difficult for me to determine from the information given so far, and varies considerably with 
climate/temperature.
3. The pack animal is based on the donkey, with a carrying capacity of around 50 kg.
4. The pack animal will consume 1 kg of maize/sorghum/high energy food plus 5 kg of chaff/straw/hay per day of travelling about 25 km.
5. There is plenty of grazing available en route, removing the need to transport the 5 kg per day of chaff/straw/hay.
6. Each 'human' requires 6 kg of food each day.
8. The party walks, if horses are used by some/all humans, then feed requirements for horses will need to be added, which I have not done.
7. The party of eight will travel 7 days before it is possible/advisable to replenish supplies. In 7 days the party will travel around 175 km.

Taking above into account, in 7 days of wilderness travel, the group of 8 (assuming no attrition, though you mention that) will need 8 pack animals. Or each pack animal can transport the food requirements for itself and one 'human'. Depending on how light they travel, you might want to add a pack animal or two (with 43 kg or 86 kg of equipment respectively) for camping and other equipment.

Somewhat more generally if you wish to modify some of the assumptions the following formula could be used:

(Np x Lp) + (Nm x Lm) = D x ((Nh x Fh) + (Np x Fp) + (Nm x Fm)) + E

Where:
Np = number of pack animals
Nh = number of 'humans' in the group
Nm = number of mounts
Lp = load/carrying capacity of single pack animal (assuming each pack animal has the same carrying capacity, if not average across pack animals) [kg]
Lm = spare (after rider and their 'clothes' and worn equipment) carrying capacity of single mount (assuming each mount has the same carrying capacity, if not average across mounts) [kg]
D = number of days between possible/advisable food/supplies replenishments
Fh = food requirements of single 'human' in the group (assuming the same for all 'humans', if not, average across individuals) per day [kg]
Fp = food requirements of single pack animal per day (assuming pack animal has the same daily food requirements, if not average across pack animals) [kg]
Fm = food requirements of single mount (assuming all mounts have the same daily food requirements, if not average across mounts) per day [kg]
E = mass of other equipment (including mass of food storage containers) apart from food carried [kg]

Mass units can be whatever you want (lbs. or some other exotic unit), as long as they are consistent.


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## TWErvin2 (Jun 22, 2013)

A good stew takes more than an hour to boil over an open flame. It's passible after an hour, but especially if it's harsh weather out, it takes a while, at least from my camping days experience.

Think about streams and such when foraging...frogs, cattails, crayfish, fish, turtles, mussels, etc.


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## Weaver (Jun 22, 2013)

TWErvin2 said:


> A good stew takes more than an hour to boil over an open flame. It's passible after an hour, but especially if it's harsh weather out, it takes a while, at least from my camping days experience.
> 
> Think about streams and such when foraging...frogs, cattails, crayfish, fish, turtles, mussels, etc.



Yeah, don't the turtles when you're foraging.    (My clone almost did his master's thesis on turtles, Optimal Foraging Theory, and the Clovis people.)


There must be a BIG difference between stew and soup, despite the ingredients being so similar.  I make a lot of soup from scratch.  From start to finish -- this means chopping raw veggies, cutting the meat into small pieces, and cooking everything until done -- it takes me maybe an hour, and that's only because I cook it on low heat to allow the rosemary time to meditate.  Nor has it ever taken me longer to cook when doing so over a fire instead of a kitchen stove.

Of course, the _amount_ of stew/soup being prepared will definitely affect the cook time.  Feeding a smallish caravan of merchants and their guards is would be a lot more work than feeding one fantasy author.

If your story characters were to make their stew using, say, dried-out sausages instead of freshly killed rabbit, they could have a hot meal as soon as the veggies in the stew were done.  (I'm thinking of this because I have, in my own fridge right now, a package of "Lit'l Smokies" sausages that are destined to be put into soup soon.)


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## Tevaras (Jun 22, 2013)

*Formula for number of mounts - rearrangement of general formula*

Clarification: Fp, Fm, and Fh are the food requirements per day per animal/human that is needed after any grazing/foraging has been deducted (if they can find it on the way the party does not need to carry it).

And for those that just want to calculate the number of pack animals a quick bit of formula rearrangement yields:

Np = [ D x ((Nh x Fh) + (Nm x Fm)) - (Lm x Lm) + E ] / [ Lp - (D x Fp) ]

with the variable definitions from previous post.

Notes:
- if [ Lp - (D X Fp) ] is not a positive number then the pack animals will eat more food (that must be carried and cannot be located en route) in D days than they can carry - replenish food more frequently, or find better pack animals.
- if [ Lp - (D X Fp) ] is zero then the pack animals will only be able to carry the food they need to eat between resupply - replenish food more frequently, or find better pack animals.
- if (Nm x Lm) is greater than D x ( (Nh x Fh) + (Nm x FM) ) + E then the mounts have sufficient spare (after rider and worn equipment/clothes are accounted for) carrying capacity so that you do not need extra mounts.

Or much more simply you could just make something up - it is your world .


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## Jess A (Jun 22, 2013)

Tevaras said:


> Or much more simply you could just make something up - it is your world .



But why make something up when I can spend an evening doing a math equation? 

In any case, thanks for this. It's useful in any case. And a spot of fun for the sake of curiosity, for those who say there is no point going into this much detail.


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## Tevaras (Jun 22, 2013)

Good morning Jess A,



Tevaras said:


> <snip>
> - if (Nm x Lm) is greater than D x ( (Nh x Fh) + (Nm x FM) ) + E then the mounts have sufficient spare (after rider and worn equipment/clothes are accounted for) carrying capacity so that you do not need extra mounts.
> <snip>



<sigh> I need to improve my proof reading:


> - if (Nm x Lm) is greater than D x ( (Nh x Fh) + (Nm x FM) ) + E then the mounts have sufficient spare (after rider and worn equipment/clothes are accounted for) carrying capacity so that you do not need extra *pack animals*.



And if you really enjoy an evening of mathematics - go for it ;-)


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## CupofJoe (Jun 23, 2013)

Jess A said:


> But why make something up when I can spend an evening doing a math equation?



I just did and I now need 24 pack animals for my MC's "stealthy" escape in to the wilderness.
I knew something was off.


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## Tevaras (Jun 23, 2013)

*Too many pack animals for stealthy escape.*



CupofJoe said:


> I just did and I now need 24 pack animals for my MC's "stealthy" escape in to the wilderness.
> I knew something was off.



Good morning CupofJoe,

Oops, maybe I should not have provided the formula? - ignorance is bliss? 

A number of things for you to think about trying:
- relax some of the restrictive assumptions, like being able to graze/forage more food. If you assumed the party had to carry their own water, that would make a huge impact.
- assume that the 'people' have to carry their own personal kit: e.g. weapons and armour, eating irons, bedroll, tent/canvas lean to, etc.
- do not use mounts - horses fodder 'eat' into the carrying budget (see grazing above though). But they would have to walk then.
- increase the quality (carrying capacity versus food requirements) of the pack animals.
- use a magic flying carpet ...
- have some of the party improve their foraging/wilderness survival skills.
- provide for more frequent spots where supply replenishment is possible (reduce number of days of food that needs to be carried), did they think to hire a local guide?.
- have the party acquire the pack animals and provisions half a day out of town, that way their escape from town can be much more stealthy.
- ignore the reality and substitute your own: have them take two pack animals (it is your story, and some people probably would not care for this detail) 
- other ideas I am sure you can come up with, good luck .

Have a good day,


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## Jess A (Jun 24, 2013)

Or we could have a bottomless pit bag and put rations that never go bad into it, and everything else. No pack animals needed, no foraging!


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## Lunaairis (Jun 24, 2013)

CupofJoe said:


> I just did and I now need 24 pack animals for my MC's "stealthy" escape in to the wilderness.
> I knew something was off.



did they know they would need to escape before hand? if so they may already have had a party sent away ahead of them carrying a majority of the supplies they would need. 

That or rob some poor saps to make up for more supply's.


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## CupofJoe (Jun 24, 2013)

Lunaairis said:


> did they know they would need to escape before hand? if so they may already have had a party sent away ahead of them carrying a majority of the supplies they would need.



actually that's a very good idea... there are "friends" ahead of them that can help...


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## Tevaras (Jun 24, 2013)

Jess A said:


> Or we could have a bottomless pit bag and put rations that never go bad into it, and everything else. No pack animals needed, no foraging!



Good morning Jess A,

reminds me of the good old Bag of Holding (from AD&D). Such a useful item that!

Have a good week,


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## Tevaras (Jun 24, 2013)

Lunaairis said:


> did they know they would need to escape before hand? if so they may already have had a party sent away ahead of them carrying a majority of the supplies they would need.
> 
> That or rob some poor saps to make up for more supply's.




Good morning Lunaairis,

good idea, forethought and planning can go a long way.

Stealing from 'some poor saps' would depend on the M.C.'s morals, or maybe one of their companions had different morals and stole without the M.C.'s knowledge. Could make for an interesting scene when the disapproving M.C. finds out about the theft - how will they react?

Or (possibly) more interestingly, perhaps the M.C. did a very good deed before, and that someone is now repaying the favour by organising the supplies at the right moment: the M.C. escaped knowing they would be in trouble if they could not find food to run away a long distance, but things were so dire they escaped from town even knowing they could not make it more than a day's travel. Then lo and behold, they are helped just in time. As a twist, the person(s) doing the favour could be returning the favour from a pervious generation to the M.C., e.g. the M.C.'s father or grand father. This would leave a slightly confused M.C. on receiving the 'repayment'.

So many possibilities - take your pick CupofJoe 

Have a good week,


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## Tevaras (Jun 28, 2013)

Tevaras said:


> <snip>
> Np = [ D x ((Nh x Fh) + (Nm x Fm)) - (Lm x Lm) + E ] / [ Lp - (D x Fp) ]
> </snip>



Spot the obvious typo - oops , correction:

Np = [ D x ((Nh x Fh) + (Nm x Fm)) - (*Nm* x Lm) + E ] / [ Lp - (D x Fp) ]

Where:
- Fh, Fm, and Fp is food and water per 'creature' per day that cannot be foraged/grazed.
- E is the equipment taken, including weight of food and water storage.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 29, 2013)

the foods my characters lug around:

beans.  I know it's along the lines of stew, as in, takes longer to cook, but my mercenaries use beans and rice, oats, anything dried that can be heated in water.  Sure, it's baby food, but when traveling, a group of mercenaries on a mission aren't going to stop and chase rabbits.  Let's just say, a dozen men on horses pretty much clear the immediate forest of game animals.  About the only thing they might attract are bandits... and I hear they aren't good eating.  

I'm a fan of a two-day trip having things like rolls, cheese (in wax), bacon (wrapped in paper), fruit.  Pretty much everything stays good for two days.  

FYI, when the pioneers set off west, they carried POUNDS of bacon, wrapped in paper.  I guess it kept well enough, because they used it a lot.  So that's something to think about.  Meat can be cured and as long as it's properly covered, it can stay good because it's been smoked and salted.  Not everything needs to be dried, it just needs to be cured so it doesn't rot.  Then packaged in wax or paper, where it won't get bugs and fresh air (which delivers microbes).

Fruit stays fresh on the counter or in a sack for weeks.  And they ripen at different times of year.  (Apples- fall, peaches-  early to late summer, grapes- early to late summer.)

On n interesting note, I watched survivorman tonight and he said you can eat rabbit and deer droppings because the animals' digestion doesn't sap all the nutrients and actually turns rough food people can't digest into digestable material.  Not my first choice, but if I was starving... Rabbits actually frequently eat their own droppings and redigest the nutrients.  

Water is the bigger problem when traveling.  Sometimes, if you're really thirsty, rather than kill that deer for meat, you'd do better to follow it to water  And speaking of deer... if you should come across an animal you can kill for food, you can rip off a leg bone and the marrow inside will stay good for more than a week.  Marrow is one of the best sources of protein and fat calories available in the wilderness.


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## Tevaras (Jun 29, 2013)

Good evening Caged Maiden,

interesting about the bone marrow, I was not aware it kept that long.

You are right about the water being the biggest problem. An active human in a hot climate can require eight litres or so per day. That's eight kilos of weight per day. Most explorers when they travel through desert areas seem to rely on a watering hole every day or two.

I like the beans idea, I think they keep very well, just add water. I think Lentils are also a type of bean, and if kept dry they store very well, perhaps in a clay jug/urn? You can make quite a nice thick soup/sludge which may not look very appetising, but it is food, and does fill the stomach nicely.

Rice might be another good food to take, it also stores very well (if kept dry), and a cup full is enough for a couple of meals.

I would suppose the types of food taken depend on whether you will replenish every couple of days (in which case you could take more perishable food), or if you cannot replenish for a five days (or more).

Depending on the technology of food storage, you could take food that will last a month or more. E.g. polar and Antarctic explorers used a lot of tinned food, but their nutrition knowledge was not so good in the early 20th century, so their health suffered.

Most people will eat almost anything in a desperate survival situation, some years ago a rugby team crashed in the Andes (1972 Andes flight disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and survived for a long time before getting rescued. People were rather coy about what they ate ...

Have a good weekend,


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## ALB2012 (Jun 30, 2013)

Watch Bear Grylls - he will eat and drink anything...including his own pee kept in the innards of a snake... blurgh!
More seriously though many cultures eat locusts and other crunchy insects, there are tubors, roots and leaves. 

I would agree, rice and seeds are good, beans, legumes, anything pickled keeps although I wouldn't want to be travelling in a group where the main food was beans and pickled onions...that could be very flatulent. 

Smoked meat/fish lasts a while, cheese keeps if stored correctly. Hard tack type biscuits keep.

I guess it depends who is carrying this grub - are there mules, pack horses, oxen, wagons, camals, other beasts of burdens or are the party carrying it all. A person can actually carry quite a bit but of course this is very tiring. Remember they need tents, bedrolls, cooking utensils, weapons, at least one set of clean clothes etc.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 30, 2013)

I had a hunter character join  party once and he stopped to fish when the rest made camp;  Fishing is a great skill in the wild and unlike other hunting, where you must take time to butcher an animal (not to mention track it, shoot it and chase it), fishing takes only a line and hooks, bait being an abundant resource near rivers.  Never forget that fishing is readily available and doesn't require poles.  Hand-feeding a line is easy enough and fishing takes much less time than stalking a deer.  IN fact, deer hunting is a pretty big operation.  Pheasant live in fallow fields, geese migrate twice a year in huge numbers, squirrels are abundant in wooded areas.  If you're really traveling and need to hunt along the way, deer aren't the first choice, and probably don't make the top ten of readily available, edible game.  

Also, just as a side note, when forging through deep wilderness between towns, many deer have been wiped out by poachers or villagers.  And you might be traveling on noble lands, where hunting large game is illegal.  Poaching deer was punishable by death, hence why England still has deer.  Because otherwise, if just anyone could have killed and eaten them, they would have been extinct in the Dark Ages.  But my point was, if you're in the true wilderness... you could run into less desirable animals while stalking quietly through that overgrown forest.  No one wants to come face to face with a boar, with only a  few arrows on their side.  Something else to consider.  Staying near the road or river might be an adventurer's best bet.


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