# setting limits to magical ability



## krunchee (Nov 27, 2012)

Hi guys, I'm currently designing my first complex magic system and have come across a bit of a problem. I know my characters need limits but I'm not sure how to cap their magical potential. 

We have all seen systems where magic uses a persons own energy making that their limit. But I want something a little different. 

Where does the strength for their power come from and why is it capped?


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## Wanara009 (Nov 28, 2012)

Well, my magic system (Called it the Etheric Arts) uses a special energy gained from metabolizing a certain substance (aether). A mage is an individual that has this metabolic pathway. This 'mana' is then used as a 'tool' to manipulate pre-existing Energy (Conversion), Matter (Crafting), Properties (Linking), or Information (Calculation). I.e.: converting light into sound, rearranging the molecular structure of iron to change its shape, make air solid temporarily, cast illusion, etc. The process turns mana into heat while the metabolism of Aether turns it into Ethera, which can be reenergized back into Aether when exposed to enough mundane energy). Etheric construct works the same way, just automated.

The first limit comes from the the limited storage of mana each person has. The size of a person's mana storage also dictates their innate fine control (which is also a limit). A person with large mana storage usually have less fine control over their Arts as opposed to those with smaller ones. You can't change the degree of your innate fine control, but you can compensate for it with other factors such as theoretical knowledge and practical experience.

Thirdly, there are also limit set by the Laws. These are mathematical formula that predict the how much mana is spent during certain task and also the efficiency of its use when certain variable is in effect. Each branch of the Etheric Arts have their own Laws. The simplest example of these of these are Law of Mass Resistance (Crafting), which says that the mana spent on reshaping an object increase with the target's mass but also say that the mana efficiency will increase with the the increasing density.

Lastly there are the matter of skill, which dictates the mage's efficiency. 'Skill' is defined as a combination of theoretical knowledge, practical experience, and innate fine control. For example: a novice performing heat attack will make something akin to fire or laser beam because he's losing energy in the form of light, while advanced mage's heat attack will be invisible.

Yeah, its complicated but I can't help it!


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## ThinkerX (Nov 28, 2012)

I need more info about the nature of your system to help you much.

In my system, magic is innate to the wizard casting the spell.  It's a power/ability he develops slowly and painfully over time. 
They become physically exhausted after casting a few spells.  Exhaustion ruins the concentration required to work magic. 

My wizards also tend to be wimps as magicians go: most of what they're capable of is a notch or two above 'parlour tricks', though there are a few exceptions.  The really impressive magical stuff requires either long rituals (which have a high chance of flopping) or cutting a deal with a spirit or demon of some sort - usually a very bad idea for the wizard.


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## Gurkhal (Nov 28, 2012)

I would start to think about what you want your magic to do and what the general feel of the magic should be. For example D&D magic is very different from the magic used in Tolkien's work and they do, mostly, different things and have a different style and feel to them. So that's probably where you should start and build the metaphysic parts after that.

One idea I had for a time is that the world runs on magic energy, but its limited and not renewable and when its up its game over. So to use magic the sorcerer have to take from this limited energy and thus hasten the destruction of the world. This means that magic is discouraged from being practiced at all and most who can use it use it with great restrictions so they take as little power as possible.


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## amadhava (Nov 28, 2012)

If magic supply and use were to be unlimited, there would be no story - for the first unscrupulous, irresponsible magician who came into his/her magic would blow up the world...  to exaggerate here. Also, if there is no decided system with laws, etc, i think the author could get lazy and just up the power of their hero/ine with no explanation whatsoever. So, there is definitely a need for capping the power. 

About where the power comes from - it can be the following:
- from the individual itself (so this will be based on how much holding/throughput channel power that the individual has)
- from the community (a sort of reservoir, but each individual still needs to be able to tap into it based on his/her strengths - how is it tapped - either amount of knowledge, channels of some sort, some sort of relationship with a guardian beast/thing, a collection of items that belong to the reservoir - possibilities are endless here)
- from a partner - a magical beast, a magical twin in another universe, an UNmagical twin so all the magic is this individual's, etc
- astrological? based on what planets were in conjunction, stars, gravity, etc
- physical - the largest man/woman wins  although this could get old very easily , energy might be generated through physical motions, jumping or running or riding, etc, or through singing, or dancing...

I'm sure there are many others that I have left out - but that's all that came into my head. Hope this helps


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## SeverinR (Nov 28, 2012)

One author has magic nodes,ie veins of magic energy that can be tapped into by mages. There are main lines, deadly for the inexperienced or untrained, basically equal to tapping into the power grid of the local utility without turning off the power.
Small veins that provide safe power.
I use personal energy,mana, to limit the ability. I have vessels that can store energy for the bigger magics and ways for people to combine their energy, both voluntarily and involuntarily.  Magical beings have more energy, and larger magical beings have more energy related to siz also. ie dragons have lots of magic energy, even though most can't use it.

Some limits can be on required components and setting them up properly, but this would also require setup prior to combat if its a combat magic. Say a D&D fireball, you must wrap the components prior to combat, because even the dumb barbarian would figure out what ever your putting together in the fight can not be good for them.  That would also limit the number of times it could be used without making more.  I use this aspect for the enchanting of items, or magics that involve extended time to cast. One being the process to become a lich. Also gives a reason why not everyone can do it, components can be expensive and hard to find.

Magic must have limits, or else a mage could bring a massive nuke to bare that would destroy whole worlds while teleporting to safety in the same second. How would a world fight an individual with this much power?  No honorable attack would succeed, and every new person would be thought to be an assasin, even old friends would be suspect.


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## Mindfire (Nov 28, 2012)

Here's another possibility. Instead of "capping" the amount of magic that a person can use at one time, why not put a limit on the "magic flow rate"- the rate at which an arbitrary "unit" of magic can flow through the person into the spell per unit time. This method may seem superficially similar to an ordinary cap, but is quite different. 

With an ordinary cap, some spells are simply too big for the caster. If they attempt them they fail, get depowered temporarily or permanently, or they just drop dead. With a "flow rate" cap however, there is technically no limit to the "size" of spell that can be cast but rather the speed with which it can be cast. This mean large spells are not impossible, just extremely inefficient. Several casters could however perform a large spell more quickly via combined effort. 

E.g. an average mage could create an infinite stream of tiny fireballs, but generating a nuke would take forever. A group of casters could reduce the time, but not enough for the spell to be battlefield effective.

Additionally, you could institute a rule that the spell dissipates if the flow is interrupted for any reason, or put a second limit on the _rate of change_ of the magic flow rate, meaning it would take considerably greater skill and practice to be able quickly transition from one spell to another. 

Now one must ask: what determines the limit on the magic flow rate? Is the limit static or can it change over time? If so, why and how?

I'm thinking of using a rule similar to this.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Nov 28, 2012)

I tend to treat magic as a matter of individual talent - some magicians are born with more magic, whereas some learn faster. I've never actually given any thought to the mechanisms of peak magic, though. Mostly, magic power simply stops growing once the mage reaches his or her full potential. 

I think this is because I tend to treat magic either as knowledge (there being a finite number of things to learn about it) or as a physical ability. (One stops improving when one reaches peak condition.)



amadhava said:


> If magic supply and use were to be unlimited, there would be no story - for the first unscrupulous, irresponsible magician who came into his/her magic would blow up the world...



Well, there is a difference between making magic potentially unlimited and actually giving your characters unlimited magic. Suppose magic is limited by age and experience, but no magical means of extending ones life exists. In such a scenario, the most powerful mages would be the old Merlin-type people, but they would die long before they could become genuinely godlike. Perhaps the learning curve becomes so steep that it doesn't matter if they live a bit longer than normal people.

For that matter, a learning curve is itself a good limiter - magic is easy to learn in the beginning but becomes progressively harder the more you learn. Kinda like how athletes have a limit to how much they can improve before they have to resort to performance enhancing drugs and streamlined clothes.


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## wordwalker (Nov 28, 2012)

A big part of this is, what's the nature of your story-- plot, themes, world history and so on. Many of the better tales find a magic system with limits that complement that, if "what limits magic" wasn't the start for their whole idea. Base magic on sacrifice of your energy, control of rare resources or scholarly knowledge, bonds with mysterious creatures, whatever first _feels_ like it fits and then that you're _sure_ won't break the plot.

Or, you may not want to be too specialized with this, and simply say the story's about nations or monsters or other things with magic only affecting so much. Then it can just be a matter of trained willpower, innate Gift, personal endurance, and/or the complexity of possible spells limiting how big a force can be generated. ("So mages throw fireballs, with the stronger ones throwing bigger ones" might be just what you want.)

(Plus, how many people in the world can do it, and what spells can be churned out or made permanent; why _not_ commonplace magic lamps? if you can explain how many other tools are made that way too. And you may want to stop and say "Teleportation is _this_ difficult, mind-control has _these_ limits," and so on for each thing that you think reshuffles a situation more than you want.)

But the first choice might be, does magic's limits need to be complicated or not?


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## Mindfire (Nov 28, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> For that matter, a learning curve is itself a good limiter - magic is easy to learn in the beginning but becomes progressively harder the more you learn. Kinda like how athletes have a limit to how much they can improve before they have to resort to performance enhancing drugs and streamlined clothes.



Or like how differential equations and numerical analysis cause one to reflect fondly on high school algebra.


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## Chilari (Nov 28, 2012)

Some great suggestions here. In a short story I'm working on, magic requires certain ingredients. No matter how skilled a witch, if she doesn't have lavender in a spell where lavender is needed, that spell isn't going to work as well as it's meant to, or possibly at all. Substituting one ingredient for a similar one can make it work better than not having it at all, but no ingredients = no spell. Anyone can do magic, but it takes learning - they need to learn how to feel out the magic flow, learn the chants, learn the properties of plants and rocks and other substances, and learn how to combine them to create the desired effect. So the limits on a witch are her resources (if she can't afford to buy gold dust, she can't use it in a spell; if she lives in a climate where she can't get hold of thistles, she can't use them in a spell, etc), her knowledge (if she doesn't know what thistles do then using them in a spell might negate her intended effect) and her experience (if she's a bit hit and miss at grasping onto the flow of magic, she can have all the ingredients in the world and all the knowledge in the world and end up with nothing more than smelly broth and chalk circles).


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## Mindfire (Nov 28, 2012)

Also, remember that the magic limits are in place mostly for the benefit of you, the author, to help you avoid letting the protagonists solve every problem they encounter with MOAR DAKKA! 

There is rarely, if ever, any need to explicitly explain what the limits are to the reader. If you're doing it right, the reader should be too invested in the story to care precisely what the rules of your magic system are. Some of the greatest fantasy books of all time: Lord of the Rings, Earthsea, Narnia, Harry Potter, Codex Alera. This they all have in common: they never really stop to explain exactly how magic works. They do _not _lecture. And yet they maintain internal consistency. Never does the use of magic feel like it jumps the shark. 

Let the reader intuit what the rules are. Only explain if absolutely necessary to the plot.


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## Steerpike (Nov 28, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> They do _not _lecture. And yet they maintain internal consistency. Never does the use of magic feel like it jumps the shark.
> 
> Let the reader intuit what the rules are. Only explain if absolutely necessary to the plot.



I prefer this approach as well. Some of the stories I've read that get into detailed descriptions of how magic works can be intellectual interesting, I suppose, but by and large the stories aren't nearly as good as the ones that use the approach Mindfire describes. I sometimes get the impression that it is one of those things that the author has put so much time into, they're going to make damn sure the reader hears about it whether they need (or want) to, or not.


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## Penpilot (Nov 28, 2012)

Check out these articles by Brandon Sanderson. 

Brandon Sanderson: Sanderson's First Law
Brandon Sanderson: Sanderson's Second Law 

See if that helps you any.

There was a thread on this forum where we discussed this.
http://mythicscribes.com/forums/writing-questions/3172-sandersons-first-law.html


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## Amanita (Nov 28, 2012)

Maybe answering the following questions will help you:

Do you want to deal with certain themes?
(For example, if you want to write about the question if people have a free will or if anything is determined, fortune-telling might be the magic form of choice. The answer you want to give decides if prophecies always come true, if the things prophesised can be changed, if they only come true if people choose to act accordingly and so on.) 
Which problems do you want your characters to face?
(For example, if your character is afraid of fire, giving her fire magic would pose quite a challenge. The issue of control would probably be the most interesting here. Can she control her magic if she's scared of it at the same time? If not, what are the consequences?) 
Which forms of magic do you enjoy/want to write about? 
(Not one many people take seriously, but I think enjoying the stuff you're writing about will increase the likelihood that your reader's going to feel the same way. If you're not boring them with overly long descriptions that is.) 
And finally: What's the story you want to tell?

I don't really see the point in creating abstract concepts of magic  following some rules created by others without taking the actual story into account. Magic isn't a necessary part of fantasy that has to be added for completeness, it's an interesting element that can be used to make the story more interesting or not, if the author chooses to write without it. 
Most magic systems in popular books do not follow this pattern at all, some examples have already been mentioned.


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## Mindfire (Nov 28, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> I prefer this approach as well. Some of the stories I've read that get into detailed descriptions of how magic works can be intellectual interesting, I suppose, but by and large the stories aren't nearly as good as the ones that use the approach Mindfire describes. I sometimes get the impression that it is one of those things that the author has put so much time into, they're going to make damn sure the reader hears about it whether they need (or want) to, or not.



Author self-indulgence never results in anything good. So yes, resist the urge to explain.


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## Saigonnus (Nov 28, 2012)

The magic I use in my principal WIP is basically like the force in that the energies are all around the spellcaster... That is the end to the similarities. Basically all things have energy; what the object is depends on what sort of energy it has. Living/breathing creatures for example have spirit energy; the spellcaster uses their own spirit energy to "grab" the energy around them for the creation of "spells" (they aren't referred to as spells in the WIP). The ground below has stone and fire energy (from the magma of course) while trees have a trace of spirit energy and water. 

Basically there are two sorts of spellcasters... druids; who need to use a series of movements (like a dance) as a catalyst for creating the spell/effect and can use the raw energy to manifest them. They are extremely powerful, but limited in that only the most basic abilities (strangling vines, summon animals etc.) are easy to do, the rest requires more time and makes them somewhat limited on the battlefield. 

The other sort are transmuters who harness the raw energy and can alter it (within reason) to serve their specific needs, or they can use one "nuance" or characteristic of a type of energy to have a certain effect. For example, to slow down an enemy attack, a caster could take the "density" of the water and throw it like a blanket over a small area of effect. To stop it completely they could use the solidity of stone to root them in place, leaving their own forces to dispatch them as they will. Generally though transmuters are less powerful than druids and often employ talismen or other objects to focus the energy they gather and increase the range of attacks. The most common of these are large obelisks erected at various points in the communities where transmuters are present and usable by any who know how.


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## Zero Angel (Nov 28, 2012)

In regards to the original post, maybe you should switch that around a little and instead of thinking of limits to your magick, think of the cost of your magick. How can they achieve that power?



Mindfire said:


> Or like how differential equations and numerical analysis cause one to reflect fondly on high school algebra.



? because high school algebra was boring and those subjects are too exciting???


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## Mindfire (Nov 28, 2012)

Zero Angel said:


> In regards to the original post, maybe you should switch that around a little and instead of thinking of limits to your magick, think of the cost of your magick. How can they achieve that power?
> 
> 
> 
> ? because high school algebra was boring and those subjects are too exciting???



More because the former made me feel like a genius and the latter at times makes me feel like Sisyphus.


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## SeverinR (Nov 29, 2012)

I have also concidered using blood magic,
forced extraction of the magical energy in living beings, with a magical syphin or through blood letting, or the ultimate living sacrifice.  The energy could be stored or used immediately for powerful magic.  If you have enough sacrifices and people to extract the sacrifices, almost any size magic would be possible.
Also sacrificing magical being would in theory extract their sizable magical energy store. ie killing a unicorn to summon a demon or something would bring alot of energy to cast it.


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## krunchee (Nov 29, 2012)

Wow guys this is a lot of food for thought. Thank you all for your input. 

Call me strange but the type of fantasy I like involves a really detailed magic system that gets used heavily. You could have the worst story in the world as long as it looks great in my mind, fireballs and tornados etc. 

Thanks again.


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## Zero Angel (Nov 29, 2012)

Mindfire said:


> More because the former made me feel like a genius and the latter at times makes me feel like Sisyphus.



Yikes! That bad? I'm not the biggest proponent of diff eq and numerical analysis, but high school algebra was always boring. I'm more of a number theory, abstract algebra and real/complex analysis fan.


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## Mindfire (Nov 29, 2012)

Zero Angel said:


> Yikes! That bad? I'm not the biggest proponent of diff eq and numerical analysis, but high school algebra was always boring. I'm more of a number theory, abstract algebra and real/complex analysis fan.



It's probably not as bad as I make it seem. Griping just helps me deal with the stress.


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## Zireael (Nov 30, 2012)

Blood magic or stamina-draining or constitution-draining magic is the way to go if you don't want to offer convoluted explanations. Just say that magic puts a toll on the caster's body.


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## Addison (Dec 2, 2012)

If you're having trouble with a magic system I recommend picking up "Writing the Paranormal Novel". It has an entire chapter devoted to creating a realistic, sound, consistent magic system. 
Cliff notes is this:
    Keep the magic consistent. I.E, if your hero uses a spell of white fire to wipe out a horde of demons in one scene, but in a later scene doesn't, make sure the readers understand why. It's not a full moon, wrong day, not enough magic crystals. Whatever. 
     Give your magic limits. What does your hero lose when he/she uses magic? Does he/she lose life, blood, do they pay by money or favor? Are they exhausted, do they start to change into something else? Does the power corrupt them? Or does the magic only work if they're touching the target? Really think about it. If your character can do magic with out any cost then the readers will see a fight scene and think "oh so he abracadabras and everything's fine". 
     Magic has a source. Nothing comes from nowhere. Even magic. Make one for your hero. 

I hope this has helped.


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## Rullenzar (Dec 2, 2012)

One of my stories features strange pillars that stretch to the clouds. These pillars are shrouded in mystery and keep a steady flow of energy circulating through the world. It's like a water cleaning system applied to air. It takes all sorts of contaminated parts from the world and releases it back as pure clean energy. Some races in my world can tap into the source of power and use it to bend to their will. Others find out fast that their biological makeup ensures a swift death if they were to try. Either way the limits are solely based on the race and the one thing they all have in common is there is a limit of energy one body can sustain. Those who push these limits can end up dead or severely handicapped.


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## Zero Angel (Dec 3, 2012)

Addison said:


> If you're having trouble with a magic system I recommend picking up "Writing the Paranormal Novel". It has an entire chapter devoted to creating a realistic, sound, consistent magic system.
> Cliff notes is this:
> Keep the magic consistent. I.E, if your hero uses a spell of white fire to wipe out a horde of demons in one scene, but in a later scene doesn't, make sure the readers understand why. It's not a full moon, wrong day, not enough magic crystals. Whatever.
> Give your magic limits. What does your hero lose when he/she uses magic? Does he/she lose life, blood, do they pay by money or favor? Are they exhausted, do they start to change into something else? Does the power corrupt them? Or does the magic only work if they're touching the target? Really think about it. If your character can do magic with out any cost then the readers will see a fight scene and think "oh so he abracadabras and everything's fine".
> ...



I don't necessarily think it is bad if magick is limitless so long as it isn't limitless for just one person. After all, when you have two limitless magick-users go up against each other, it can be pretty cataclysmic. 

I usually have limits of some sort, but my limits (apparently) are much higher than most other authors of fantasy. In a short story I am writing presently the main character is a god and she uses her powers fully throughout the story. It's quite the light show.


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## SeverinR (Dec 4, 2012)

krunchee said:


> Wow guys this is a lot of food for thought. Thank you all for your input.
> 
> Call me strange but the type of fantasy I like involves a really detailed magic system that gets used heavily. You could have the worst story in the world as long as it looks great in my mind, fireballs and tornados etc.
> 
> Thanks again.


Thats why we help, get alot of ideas from different angles of thought and possibilites.
(Also why I pretty much gave up other writing forums.)


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## Zero Angel (Dec 4, 2012)

SeverinR said:


> Thats why we help, get alot of ideas from different angles of thought and possibilites.
> (Also why I pretty much gave up other writing forums.)



This is the best writing forum I've ever been a part of, that's for sure!


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## Rullenzar (Dec 5, 2012)

I have to agree with you Zero. I've tried out a few writing forums and none were as informative or helpful as this one. The people make the forum 

I have learned a lot since I joined this forum that I believe has made me a better writer and I look forward to getting critiqued in the showcase threads once I get my first chapter down for my current story.


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## Phietadix (Dec 5, 2012)

In my world the 'gods' give magic power. Since they don't want the world blown up they prevent anyone from causeing nuclear explosions and the like.


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