# Help with gods



## Morgoth (Mar 22, 2012)

In my world my pantheon of gods all have the same type of divine power (though some are more powerful then others). What separates them is that they each represent different views or ideologies. For example, my god Altalar is the god of order, conformity, and collectivism. 

However the gods have a more extreme side. For example, while Altalar is the god of order, his will to have it imposed turns him into the god of totalitarianism. So the gods can shift from two different states at times, which ends up causing a lot of problems. 

The gods I’ve come up with so far…

Altalar: as described above

Crulath (will probably change name): god of free will, individualism, also god of anarchy and chaos

Neirae (don’t really like name, might change it): basically god of peace and harmony, though to such an extent that he forbids his followers from engaging in any conflict of any kind even if it is to defend themselves

Torothbal: god of work and architecture, but has no regard for destruction of nature and other civilizations structures that are in his way

Just want to know what people think of this, and suggestions as to gods like the ones above would be great as I’m finding it hard to think of any more that I find appealing.


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## Androxine Vortex (Mar 22, 2012)

Morgoth said:


> In my world my pantheon of gods all have the same type of divine power (though some are more powerful then others). What separates them is that they each represent different views or ideologies. For example, my god Altalar is the god of order, conformity, and collectivism.
> 
> However the gods have a more extreme side. For example, while Altalar is the god of order, his will to have it imposed turns him into the god of totalitarianism. So the gods can shift from two different states at times, which ends up causing a lot of problems.
> 
> ...



Gods can be a tricky thing to work with. Just keep in mind that just because a God represents an emotion or something like that, doesn't mean that that is the only one they are capable of feeling. Or maybe it is, it depends on how you write it and that''s why I believe they can get tricky sometimes.

I really, really like the idea of extremes in the Gods. I really like Altalar and Crulath the most and I could see them as being rivals since they are opposite. You seem to have a pattern that makes your Gods have a positive set of emotions, but also push those to the extremes. I am a huge Warhammer nerd so maybe this will help...
Khorne - Lexicanum
Slaanesh - Lexicanum
Tzeentch - Lexicanum
Nurgle - Lexicanum
You may not understand all the lore but basically they are all gods of emotion (literaly made from emtions) and are all pushed to the extreme.

What about the God of righteousnes, justice, and repentance and his extremes would lead to damnable penance? So he would sort of be all about being pure but pointing out every single wrong thing about you.

Or what about a God of Death and Afterlife who then become obssesed with morbid things and death?

Good luck!


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## Devor (Mar 23, 2012)

Morgoth said:


> However the gods have a more extreme side. For example, while Altalar is the god of order, his will to have it imposed turns him into the god of totalitarianism. So the gods can shift from two different states at times, which ends up causing a lot of problems.



I don't have any suggestions for you, but I just wanted to say that I like this idea.  Normally I'm opposed to the "god of...?" mentality because I think that gods should have personalities instead of domains.  But you're building good story elements from the way you're playing with the concept, and I wish you luck with it.


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## Queshire (Mar 23, 2012)

I doubt this is the kind of thing you're looking for but, how about a goddes of the wild places that was chained and forced to become goddess of agriculture?


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## Codey Amprim (Mar 23, 2012)

I love the opposite bipolarness of your gods. Reminds me of Sheogorath and Jygglag from
Oblivion. In that case go for it! I can see their mood swings to cause quite the stir up in your world.

Good luck, you're on the right track!

I might even end up playing with this idea.


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## ThinkerX (Mar 23, 2012)

You have some good ideas, but they need something to connect them altogether, to explain how they came to be.  A myth cycle and a founder figure (elder god).


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## Androxine Vortex (Mar 23, 2012)

Codey Amprim said:


> I love the opposite bipolarness of your gods. Reminds me of Sheogorath and Jygglag from
> Oblivion. In that case go for it! I can see their mood swings to cause quite the stir up in your world.
> 
> Good luck, you're on the right track!
> ...



Shivering Isles was awesome!

I also agree with Devor and sort of like I said in my earlier post. Just because there is a God of X, doesn't mean that ALL he can feel or represent is X. Typically if there are Gods who represent emotion, one emotion can lead to another and to another.

In my novels a priest describes and explains that the Gods do not typically represent any emotion. There is no "God of Fire" but a God may choose to associate himself with fire.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 23, 2012)

I like gods being like people, both good and bad, and with their own agendas..... i think it makes for a believable setting.

That being said, I love the polar nature of your gods.  It is very creative, and a concept which would make me very interested to read it.  I can already imagine a funny story based on gods who have lost their minds, and I wish you the best as you nail down your concept.  It has loads of potential both serious and hilarious.


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## Morgoth (Mar 23, 2012)

> I really, really like the idea of extremes in the Gods. I really like Altalar and Crulath the most and I could see them as being rivals since they are opposite. You seem to have a pattern that makes your Gods have a positive set of emotions, but also push those to the extremes. I am a huge Warhammer nerd so maybe this will help...
> Khorne - Lexicanum
> Slaanesh - Lexicanum
> Tzeentch - Lexicanum
> ...



I don't know much about warhammer, I'll have a look through them and see what I find, thanks. 

I had considered a god of justice but I thought it'd end up similar to Altalar. I think it's a good idea now though, will most likely make a god for both that and death and afterlife, thanks for the suggestions. 



> I doubt this is the kind of thing you're looking for but, how about a goddes of the wild places that was chained and forced to become goddess of agriculture?



Hmm no, I was going to make a god of nature but I couldn't think of a suitable extreme side for it.



> You have some good ideas, but they need something to connect them altogether, to explain how they came to be. A myth cycle and a founder figure (elder god).



I already have an idea as to how these gods came about though I'm still working on it a bit. The gods dwell on the mortal plane and have their own lands so I don't know about making one chief of the pantheon. 

Thanks again for all the replies, I'm really glad to know people think it's a good concept.


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## ThinkerX (Mar 23, 2012)

> I already have an idea as to how these gods came about though I'm still working on it a bit. The gods dwell on the mortal plane and have their own lands so I don't know about making one chief of the pantheon



Having the gods dwell in the mortal realm is a risky but potentialy good idea.

As to the 'Head of the Pantheon'...nothing says this Deity still has to be alive.  Could be in exile in some other dimension, or could be wandering around the mortal realms in disguise 'cursed by his children to roam without rest for ten thousand years and a day' or some such...with lots of local stories about the lone stranger who turned up one day and fixed things, only to vanish again.


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## Androxine Vortex (Mar 23, 2012)

I think it would be very interesting if the Gods lived with mortals. It would be even more unique if the Gods were not fully Immortal in that context and maybe there are assasination attempts against them! but that's kind of me just throwing stuff out there, i have no idea what you have planned.


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## kadenaz (Mar 24, 2012)

Find a point in your book where you have NO IDEA how to solve a situation, then invent a god that suits it and put it in the book (of course you should put this god before that moment, otherwise it would be obvious it's a "deus ex machina")


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## InsanityStrickenWriter (Mar 24, 2012)

Hah, sounds like something I'd write. I love characters that can just flip. A God of Nature that can spaz out and go around killing to make lots of new life out of old life as its extreme might be an idea (eg. kill off an entire village of people who then become food for lots and lots of lovely little maggots and such). Who said a God of Nature wouldn't prioritise the humble maggot from time to time? So the God of Nature's extreme would essentially be the God of Death.


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## The Blue Lotus (Mar 24, 2012)

What you describe resembles the Hindu Pantheon. (Or just about any polytheasic religion for that matter.) Check that out for more ideas and to see how other culturs have set up their system. Usualy the God in question would not flip between one or the other, instead there would be two Gods. One for the positive one for the negative. Polar opposites if you will; yet each vital to the grand design. 

Hope that helps  Sounds like a book I'd read!


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## Morgoth (Mar 24, 2012)

> Having the gods dwell in the mortal realm is a risky but potentialy good idea.
> 
> As to the 'Head of the Pantheon'...nothing says this Deity still has to be alive. Could be in exile in some other dimension, or could be wandering around the mortal realms in disguise 'cursed by his children to roam without rest for ten thousand years and a day' or some such...with lots of local stories about the lone stranger who turned up one day and fixed things, only to vanish again.



Well, I have an idea for a creator god who made the world. Its long gone by the time the pantheon are around but is somewhat responsible for their existance. 



> I think it would be very interesting if the Gods lived with mortals. It would be even more unique if the Gods were not fully Immortal in that context and maybe there are assasination attempts against them! but that's kind of me just throwing stuff out there, i have no idea what you have planned.



The gods are only killable by one of their own. I did have an idea that a demi-god, a mortal who has been granted powers by their deity, would somehow discover he/she is now able to harm a god. He/she would set him/herself up as a god of revolution but after killing his/her deity would become the god of regicide (for lack of a better world, deicide would be more fitting but the gods are rulers also) and attempt to slay the other gods.



> Find a point in your book where you have NO IDEA how to solve a situation, then invent a god that suits it and put it in the book (of course you should put this god before that moment, otherwise it would be obvious it's a "deus ex machina")



My story hasn't really taken any shape yet so I might well do that.



> Hah, sounds like something I'd write. I love characters that can just flip. A God of Nature that can spaz out and go around killing to make lots of new life out of old life as its extreme might be an idea (eg. kill off an entire village of people who then become food for lots and lots of lovely little maggots and such). Who said a God of Nature wouldn't prioritise the humble maggot from time to time? So the God of Nature's extreme would essentially be the God of Death.



Hmmm I like that idea. I might make a god of nature after all.



> What you describe resembles the Hindu Pantheon. (Or just about any polytheasic religion for that matter.) Check that out for more ideas and to see how other culturs have set up their system. Usualy the God in question would not flip between one or the other, instead there would be two Gods. One for the positive one for the negative. Polar opposites if you will; yet each vital to the grand design.
> 
> Hope that helps  Sounds like a book I'd read!



I didn't realize my gods resemble the Hindu pantheon (what with knowing next to nothing about Hinduism). I'll have a look, thanks.


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## The Blue Lotus (Mar 25, 2012)

Hindu Gods and Hindu Goddesses : overview of the gods and goddesses of Hinduism

Here is a quick overview of the Hindu Gods and Godesses There is a little information about them however to really get down to brass tacks one would have to research each one individualy. 

Utterly fascinating stuff that is.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Mar 25, 2012)

Morgoth said:


> In my world my pantheon of gods all have the same type of divine power (though some are more powerful then others). What separates them is that they each represent different views or ideologies. For example, my god Altalar is the god of order, conformity, and collectivism.
> 
> However the gods have a more extreme side. For example, while Altalar is the god of order, his will to have it imposed turns him into the god of totalitarianism. So the gods can shift from two different states at times, which ends up causing a lot of problems.
> 
> ...



Well, if I'm going to be totally honest, I think these guys feel sorta... unnatural? Not sure what other word to use. Basically they don't seem like the kind of gods you'd find in a real religion. I mean, I've never even heard of a "god of free will", free will is something regular people tend to take for granted, whereas stuff like good harvests and winning the next war were important business.

I can totally see it work if these guys literally show up in person and go: "Worship us _or else!" _Gods do tend to have a lot of precense in fantasy. But the way you describe them, they don't feel like gods people would naturally start to pray to in their everyday lives, except possibly Torothbal. (Assuming he plain just doesn't care about nature as long as stuff gets built.)

I guess it comes down to the context of the story, though, so you can definitely make this work. All I'm saying is, rather the starting off coming up with interesting gods -no matter how fun that is- one might be better off asking exactly what purpose the religion serves to its culture and start from there.


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## Xanados (Mar 25, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> no matter how fun that is- one might be better off asking exactly what purpose the religion serves to its culture and start from there.



Exactly. One should try their hardest to avoid world-builder's disease.
Ground your story in a sort of pseudo-realism. That's what I'm trying to do, at least. Think about things first. Don't just wander blindly into things.


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## Devor (Mar 25, 2012)

Xanados said:


> Exactly. One should try their hardest to avoid world-builder's disease.
> Ground your story in a sort of pseudo-realism. That's what I'm trying to do, at least. Think about things first. Don't just wander blindly into things.



It does depend, though, on what story it is that he wants to tell.  Please don't just assume that some portion of his plot _doesn't_ revolve around exactly these points if this is what he's asking for help with.


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## Ghost (Mar 25, 2012)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> Well, if I'm going to be totally honest, I think these guys feel sorta... unnatural? Not sure what other word to use. Basically they don't seem like the kind of gods you'd find in a real religion. I mean, I've never even heard of a "god of free will", free will is something regular people tend to take for granted, whereas stuff like good harvests and winning the next war were important business.
> 
> [...] All I'm saying is, rather the starting off coming up with interesting gods -no matter how fun that is- one might be better off asking exactly what purpose the religion serves to its culture and start from there.



I didn't respond to this thread because I wanted to see what others thought first. When everyone gave a big thumbs up, I felt like a weirdo.

I totally agree with Anders that this doesn't feel like something that would naturally grow from people's needs unless these gods show up after some sort of industrial revolution when people had the time to worry about free will and individualism. The other way I see it working is if it's in a religio-political context, where the churches are a play a major in governing and philisophical discourse abounds.

If these gods were around for a long time, it's difficult for me to imagine free will and anarchy being important unless the god personifies it in a different way at first. It's like if Dionysus eventually represented anarchy after centuries of being a party god. Maybe it was always a part of his domain, but it didn't become important to people until later on. But if he always stood for anarchy, I'd wonder what good that does the average citizen in ancient times. The farmer does his best to survive and Anarchy God pops up saying, "You could leave these fields uncultivated or set them on fire! You could steal grain from the other farmers!" and so on. Or maybe the god of conformity tells him, "The _other_ farmers aren't doing it like that!"

Perhaps you already worked things out, but it's hard to tell going by the gods' domains alone. It sounds like they appear in your world, and they're real. What does it mean that the Altalar is in the physical world? How and why would a god change domains instead of gaining a new one, like your god of revolution/regicide?

I'm not trying to discourage you at all, those are just my thoughts.


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## The Blue Lotus (Mar 25, 2012)

Oh I don't know... in cultures the world over there are myths about Gods for just about everything.


True they don't have the same "Titles" as he has used but they are pretty much the same thing. 

There is a God of Creation, a God of Destruction, Anger, Love, Beauty, Air, Water, Fire, name it one could find it someplace. 

Then you find the Demi-Gods and Spirits whom are responsible for the more human issues such as Greed, Poverty, Misfortune etc.


Maybe if we seen a sample of the work it would help but I don't think giving a new name and a familiar
attribute to a “God” is necessarily a bad thing. It is just not what we are used to seeing. This is just my .02 cents however.

 I try not to look past the question at hand because I was not asked to. However one could argue that a God of free will is more simply defined as a God or Godess of Wisdom.


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## Melissa G. McPhail (Mar 26, 2012)

Hi,  I like the idea of your gods a lot, especially if different races will worship them separately and/or if certain peoples are drawn to one more than another.

In my series, there are 17 desert gods (particular to a certain culture) as well as five other religions. I just thought I'd mention that while it's certainly helpful and valuable to have some of these figured out as you're heading into the story, I've had a lot of success creating gods as the story unfolded also, when your characters naturally reach for a certain oath or concept to explain or associate with what's happening in the dialogue.  Then this religion or god comes quite organically into the story (and you can always add it back into an earlier part if you need to). 

Best of luck!


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## Morgoth (Mar 26, 2012)

In response to Anders and Ouroboros,

Well the thing is, these gods aren't natural. They came about roughly halfway through my worlds history when civilization was at its peak. The races of my world chose to worship these tangible, intervening gods rather then their old ones who never visibly intervened in mortal affairs (I haven't made any yet but they most likely won't even exist). 

Of course in a real religion people wouldn't pray to a god of order for good harvest or a god of peace for help in battle. However my gods are all of the same power. What I mean for example is, Altalar is the god of order but he isn't order personified - he could just as well be a god of war if he wanted. My idea so far is that they will become overly obsessed with their attributes which is why they will take them to the extreme. But basically, the gods followers will pray to them for any of their needs and the gods will answer. If of course their people follow their doctrines. 

I hope that's been an adequate, if short, answer as I'm a bit busy at the moment.


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## Ghost (Mar 26, 2012)

Morgoth said:


> Well the thing is, these gods aren't natural. They came about roughly halfway through my worlds history when civilization was at its peak. The races of my world chose to worship these tangible, intervening gods rather then their old ones who never visibly intervened in mortal affairs (I haven't made any yet but they most likely won't even exist).



I hoped it would be something along those lines rather than picking things because they sounded cool. Knowing this is the reason for their domains, I think your idea is really interesting. I'm still curious why the gods identify with many things (like free will, individualism, anarchy, and chaos) but the demi-god has to change his preference from revolution to regicide/deicide. Is it because of his demi-god status or possibly his personality? Wouldn't regicide be a part of revolution anyway?

Just something I wondered.


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## Rullenzar (Mar 26, 2012)

Your idea is interesting but as some people have said most of it has been done before. If you'd ask me I'd take your idea one step further and instead of saying the gods can go from one extreme to another I'd say they can turn from one god into another depending on the extremity of their attitude at the time. 

For example : God of love turns into God of Hate in extreme anger or vice versa --- God of War turns into god of peace when an extreme calm falls over him/her or vice versa. 

This idea would be interesting to see in play and is one I myself have tried to fiddle with. Taking split personalities to a new level where they actually turn into someone else entirely in physical form and mental form. Just a thought. This idea might even make it easier for you to think of new gods not to mention simplistic isn't always a bad thing.


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## Morgoth (Mar 27, 2012)

> I hoped it would be something along those lines rather than picking things because they sounded cool. Knowing this is the reason for their domains, I think your idea is really interesting. I'm still curious why the gods identify with many things (like free will, individualism, anarchy, and chaos) but the demi-god has to change his preference from revolution to regicide/deicide. Is it because of his demi-god status or possibly his personality? Wouldn't regicide be a part of revolution anyway?



Oh, maybe I worded it wrong. He would claim to his fellow conspirators that he would be the god of revolution but once he succeeds in killing his god and robbing him of his power he becomes a god of regicide instead. He wouldn't switch between attributes because the reason the main gods do is tied to how they came into being. He isn't becoming a god the way they did though, he is just stealing their divine power. 

That particular demi-god is just an idea though, I may or may not implement him depending on how the story goes. 



> Your idea is interesting but as some people have said most of it has been done before. If you'd ask me I'd take your idea one step further and instead of saying the gods can go from one extreme to another I'd say they can turn from one god into another depending on the extremity of their attitude at the time.
> 
> For example : God of love turns into God of Hate in extreme anger or vice versa --- God of War turns into god of peace when an extreme calm falls over him/her or vice versa.



Well I'm not sure how that would work out. Would they still have many followers if they could turn into a completely different god? Would the type of people to follow a god of love be very eager to follow him/her if he/she can at any time turn into a god of hate? 

With Altalar for example, he could say that totalitarianism is what is best to achieve order. Of course this would make people doubt, but they would still follow him. If he were to go from being a god of order to a god of chaos, I don't think they would be so keen on staying loyal to him.


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## Rullenzar (Mar 28, 2012)

That's the beauty of it. People would have to be crazy to follow gods like that or be ever loyal to them as to not sway their moods. You could set up conflicts between loyalists who try to turn their god back into the god they believe in. The beauty of the idea is it's controversial and different. In fact lol if you don't like the idea I might use it myself for another story.


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## Rullenzar (Mar 28, 2012)

Also by the way I forgot to add this in. Gods don't normally show themselves in their true forms to lower beings. Hence the population may not even know their gods are two seperate gods. Meaning either god can be worshiped equally since they do not come into contact with the lower beings. If they do for some reason come into contact then people will pray to their god hoping for them to come and realistically how many gods do you know of that answer? lol It's these small things you can play with and manipulate to be different or to give the reader a totally different side to something they thought they knew. 

I could be alone in my crazy spins and if so disregard what I've said.


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## Morgoth (Mar 28, 2012)

Hmm, at this point I'd have to change large parts of my story if I were to make my gods that much different. Interesting idea though.


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