# Amazon announces fanfiction publication scheme Kindle Worlds



## Chilari (May 22, 2013)

So Amazon have announced Kindle Worlds, which will allow fanfiction authors to publish their stories, provided they are of licensed works ("Worlds") and meet certain guidelines. I don't know what to make of it just yet, though have blogged about it (see signature), but I have seen some interesting initial reactions from John Scalzi and over at The Mary Sue.

What do you reckon?


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## danr62 (May 22, 2013)

There is some discussion on this over at kboards as well.

I never got into fanfic, so I'm not sure what to make of this either.


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## Darkblade (May 22, 2013)

Well they say no porn so that cuts out three quarters of their potential writers. 

More seriously Eric Flint has been doing something similar with the 1632/Ring of Fire series and the Grantville Gazette. At the moment I cannot find anything regarding it's copyright policies but having run for nearly a decade I'm going to assume it has been successful and that is with a very niche target.


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## Ophiucha (May 22, 2013)

'No pornographic material', I think guarantees it's failure. I also don't like that Amazon gets control of the material, by the sounds of it, since I know many writers who start out in fanfiction adapt some of their old ideas into their first books. I mean, the copyright implications of Cassandra Clare are already questionable, let alone if she'd published it through this service and _then _tried to published _City of Bones_. I'm curious to see what they will define as acceptable content. There are the simple questions, like how violent could fanfiction be for _The Vampire Diaries_ versus _Gossip Girls_. But there are a lot of more fandom-specific questions. Will the publishers of the licensed works allow for shipping? Will they allow for _slash_ shipping? LGBT relationships often up the rating of a TV show for 'sexual content' regardless of how non-sexual the relationship is; will Amazon even _allow _the Samwise/Frodo shippers to publish their works? And if not, well, good luck with that! You just alienated 99% of the people who read this stuff.

I'm not sure why _anyone _would ever pay for fanfiction when there are literally hundreds of thousands of free fics already online, either, but ehhh, capitalism continues to confound me, so I wouldn't be shocked if it did make money.


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## Devor (May 22, 2013)

Ophiucha said:


> You just alienated 99% of the people who read this stuff.



99% of the people who read this stuff _currently_.  I would be willing to bet that the potential market for fanfiction without that content is much bigger.


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## danr62 (May 22, 2013)

Devor said:


> 99% of the people who read this stuff _currently_.  I would be willing to bet that the potential market for fanfiction without that content is much bigger.



I agree. This move could potentially make more people aware that fanfic exists. Or, even if they already know it exists, making people more aware of it.

I mean, imagine going to Amazon.com, searching for Vampire Diaries, and finding a bunch of books written by several different authors. That's a lot different from going to ff.net and looking for something.


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## Mindfire (May 22, 2013)

However successful this venture is, it's not going to kill fanfiction. Sadly.


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## Ophiucha (May 22, 2013)

Devor said:


> 99% of the people who read this stuff _currently_.  I would be willing to bet that the potential market for fanfiction without that content is much bigger.



Perhaps, though I don't think there is anything wrong with slash, specifically. It's no worse than most other fanfiction, anyway, and I must wonder how large the genuinely potential market _is_ for it, really. (Also I was being hyperbolic, there is plenty of fanfiction online that doesn't feature it - the Snape/Hermione fandom alone must have 100,000 fics out there.) I mean, fandom as a concept is pretty niche. Most people are content to have their characters from 9 to 10 on a Thursday evening and leave it at that. How many people outside of fandom would ever pay for fan-created material, and how many people who would don't already read it online for free? I just don't know how many new people this will attract.



danr62 said:


> I mean, imagine going to Amazon.com, searching for Vampire Diaries, and finding a bunch of books written by several different authors. That's a lot different from going to ff.net and looking for something.



I really hope you can't just search for 'Vampire Diaries' and end up with fanfic. Like, no matter what header they put it under, it would take six hours, tops, before somebody emails in complaining about how they thought they were buying an ebook for the actual novels and instead got a 2000 word marriage fic between the main girl and whoever the writer wanted the girl to pick for the love triangle. (Can you tell I don't watch this show?) It would have to be in its own section of the site, surely. And I can't imagine it will be well-advertised, buried deep beneath all the DVD box sets and official merchandise, and even then it would be presented without a cover (or with the quality of cover the average fanfic writer can make, which probably involves badly photoshopped promotional images of the actors slightly closer together). And I doubt it'll get a lot of space on the front page after launch week, you know?


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## Devor (May 22, 2013)

Ophiucha said:


> Perhaps, though I don't think there is anything wrong with slash, specifically. It's no worse than most other fanfiction, anyway, and I must wonder how large the genuinely potential market _is_ for it, really. (Also I was being hyperbolic, there is plenty of fanfiction online that doesn't feature it - the Snape/Hermione fandom alone must have 100,000 fics out there.) I mean, fandom as a concept is pretty niche. Most people are content to have their characters from 9 to 10 on a Thursday evening and leave it at that. How many people outside of fandom would ever pay for fan-created material, and how many people who would don't already read it online for free? I just don't know how many new people this will attract.



I'm not offering any kind of judgment on it.  That's not really a discussion I care to get into right now.

But I think fanfiction's high percentage of slash and pornography - and even, really, just your basic shipping - is a big turn off for many people.  I think emphasizing fanfiction that is true to the characters would find a much bigger audience and give more legitimacy to fanfiction authors to your average reader.

But even re-pairing relationships, I think, is (usually?  often enough anyways) rewriting the characters' basic personality to fit the new author's view of what is or would or should be attractive, rather than demonstrating an understanding of what characteristics would or wouldn't be attractive to the character's personality.

For instance, Ron and Hermione have traits that complement each other.  Hermione and Harry, some, but less so.  But it's hard for me to see anything that would justify coupling even Hermione and Draco, _let alone_ Hermione and Snape, without reshaping the characters, what they want, what they care about.  I think that kind of thing pollutes the basic appeal of the characters and the stories they were a part of to a large numbers of potential readers.


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## tlbodine (May 22, 2013)

Right, but if fans wanted to read things that were accurate and canonical, they'd just read the real book.  The whole *point* of fanfic is that you get to explore things that you won't ever see happen in the book.


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## Mindfire (May 22, 2013)

Devor said:


> But I think fanfiction's high percentage of slash and pornography - and even, really, just your basic shipping - is a big turn off for many people.



Understatement of the millennium.


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## Mindfire (May 22, 2013)

tlbodine said:


> Right, but if fans wanted to read things that were accurate and canonical, they'd just read the real book.  The whole *point* of fanfic is that you get to explore things that you won't ever see happen in the book.



In other words: "This thing that I really like? I don't like it all that much. It would be so much better if the author did things _my_ way."

That's one of the many things I don't get about fanfiction. If you like the work so much, why on earth would you twist it into a pretzel just to suit your (frequently odd and disturbing) fancies? I find it ironic that some of the very same people who agonize over the changes in the Lord of the Rings films go home and write Aragorn/Legolas. Hypocrisy at its finest.


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## danr62 (May 22, 2013)

I wouldn't write fan fiction because I'd rather play in my own world, but if I did it would only be to tell new stories involving the characters and world the author wrote, not revamped characters that I would rather they had been.


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## tlbodine (May 22, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> In other words: "This thing that I really like? I don't like it all that much. It would be so much better if the author did things _my_ way."
> 
> That's one of the many things I don't get about fanfiction. If you like the work so much, why on earth would you twist it into a pretzel just to suit your (frequently odd and disturbing) fancies? I find it ironic that some of the very same people who agonize over the changes in the Lord of the Rings films go home and write Aragorn/Legolas. Hypocrisy at its finest.



I don't write fanfic, and haven't read any of it since high school.  But the reason why non-canon shipping happens so much is because it's the easiest short-hand way to share a fantasy.  If you take characters that are already well-known and liked, the people reading your story will already be invested in them, already have an idea of what they'll be like. 

I really don't think most fanfic writers think that their stories are in any way better than the source material.  They mostly either think it would be interesting to pursue something that doesn't get pursued in the book, or want to borrow some well-known characters as actors for otherwise original stories.  

It's, like.....when you were a kid, did you ever re-enact scenes from your favorite movies, with all of your toys?  Fanfic is exactly like that.


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## Steerpike (May 22, 2013)

tlbodine said:


> It's, like.....when you were a kid, did you ever re-enact scenes from your favorite movies, with all of your toys?  Fanfic is exactly like that.



Yeah. Everyone I've known who has written fanfic really likes the source material a lot. The idea that they didn't like it that much and are just going to put time into their own version of it seems silly.


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## Mindfire (May 22, 2013)

Like I said I don't "get" fanfiction.


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## Chilari (May 23, 2013)

Ophiucha said:


> I really hope you can't just search for 'Vampire Diaries' and end up with fanfic. Like, no matter what header they put it under, it would take six hours, tops, before somebody emails in complaining about how they thought they were buying an ebook for the actual novels and instead got a 2000 word marriage fic between the main girl and whoever the writer wanted the girl to pick for the love triangle. (Can you tell I don't watch this show?) It would have to be in its own section of the site, surely. And I can't imagine it will be well-advertised, buried deep beneath all the DVD box sets and official merchandise, and even then it would be presented without a cover (or with the quality of cover the average fanfic writer can make, which probably involves badly photoshopped promotional images of the actors slightly closer together). And I doubt it'll get a lot of space on the front page after launch week, you know?



Don't worry, it won't be like that. For a start, there's a minimum word limit - 5,000 words to 10,000 is allowed, but gets a reduced royalty rate, while 10,000 words up gets the 35% rate. There are also content guidelines including one which means Amazon and the rights holder can refuse works which give "poor customer experience", and the rights holder can stipulate specific other content guidelines, so in theory the rights holder can say "no non-canon shipping" or "Bob and Carol don't make a good couple; any fic shipping these two won't be allowed." Having said that, I don't know how many rights holders will put limits on like that, because shipping is quite a big chunk of what's left after pornography is removed, so it would hit their bottom line.

As for the cover, Amazon will help with that - they'll have some predesigned covers, to which the author adds the title and their name, presumably using customisation for font, colour and position. There will be covers, though, and not rubbishy ones.

As for how they get listed, Amazon haven't stated anything, but I think it's in their best interests to make it absolutely clear that this is fanfiction, not official merchandise because misleading customers makes unhappy customers. I should think they'll have a Kindle Worlds page where you can browse by World/original property.


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## Jeff Xilon (May 23, 2013)

I think the biggest problem with this that has caused a certain portion of the internet (like my twitter timeline) to explode for awhile is that people are getting hung up on semantics. The way I see it Amazon is trying an experiment with a new thing. The obvious name for this thing is fan fiction. The problem arises from the fact that there is already this other thing with the same name. Similarities exist between these two things, but at heart they are completely different things. The confusion bred by this same name for two related but different things has some people thinking Amazon is trying to do things it really isn't trying to do.

So someone else already linked to John Scalzi's good post about this, I'd like to recommend Matt Forbeck's blog post about it as well: Kindle Worlds = Worlds Burning? - Forbeck.com


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## Jeff Xilon (May 23, 2013)

EDIT: Sorry for the double post. It hadn't seemed to take the first time.


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## Chilari (May 23, 2013)

Jeff Xilon said:


> I think the biggest problem with this that has caused a certain portion of the internet (like my twitter timeline) to explode for awhile is that people are getting hung up on semantics. The way I see it Amazon is trying an experiment with a new thing. The obvious name for this thing is fan fiction. The problem arises from the fact that there is already this other thing with the same name. Similarities exist between these two things, but at heart they are completely different things. The confusion bred by this same name for two related but different things has some people thinking Amazon is trying to do things it really isn't trying to do.



I'm not sure what you mean by this. Don't you think that what Amazon is doing is publishing fanfiction - of the same type that is already widely read for free? What do you see as the differences here?


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## Steerpike (May 23, 2013)

Chilari said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by this. Don't you think that what Amazon is doing is publishing fanfiction - of the same type that is already widely read for free? What do you see as the differences here?



The obvious differences are that it is licensed, controlled for content, and subject to approval by Amazon.


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## Chilari (May 23, 2013)

Does that stop it being fanfiction though? I don't see it as being the same as, for example, the official novels of the Trek universe or the Dr Who universe, written by individuals who in many case did start out writing it as fanfiction. Licensed isn't the same as official or canon. The licensing elements seems to me to simply be the difference between posting it for free or publishing it for money without breaking copyright laws. It doesn't make it any less fanfiction, and nor does it make it canon.

The content controls do make a difference, I'll admit, because so much of currently produced fanfiction does involve banned elements, but again it does not make it less fanfiction, it's just a hoop to jump through to allow publication for money, because Amazon and the rights holders don't want their brands associated with certain elements.

What I'm saying is, it is still fanfiction - unofficial (albeit licensed) works written by fans of a show/game/story etc to be read by others fans. It is not original fiction, it is not official or canon (though rights holders have the right to make it canon at a later date), it is fiction written by fans for fans using the existing characters and worlds.


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## Jeff Xilon (May 23, 2013)

Chilari said:


> Does that stop it being fanfiction though? I don't see it as being the same as, for example, the official novels of the Trek universe or the Dr Who universe, written by individuals who in many case did start out writing it as fanfiction. Licensed isn't the same as official or canon. The licensing elements seems to me to simply be the difference between posting it for free or publishing it for money without breaking copyright laws. It doesn't make it any less fanfiction, and nor does it make it canon.
> 
> The content controls do make a difference, I'll admit, because so much of currently produced fanfiction does involve banned elements, but again it does not make it less fanfiction, it's just a hoop to jump through to allow publication for money, because Amazon and the rights holders don't want their brands associated with certain elements.
> 
> What I'm saying is, it is still fanfiction - unofficial (albeit licensed) works written by fans of a show/game/story etc to be read by others fans. It is not original fiction, it is not official or canon (though rights holders have the right to make it canon at a later date), it is fiction written by fans for fans using the existing characters and worlds.



I do think this is closer to licensed tie-in fiction than to fanfic as it seems to be largely practiced today, but that isn't quite what I was thinking in my original post. I don't think Amazon is trying to absorb or poach from the fanfic community that exists right now. I doubt their rights holders have a lot of interest in the slash or shipping for example. As an outsider looking in I don't think it would work anyway. The fanfic community that most people seem to talk about here on the internet seems to be just that - a community, a subculture even. I don't think that subculture is going to transfer over to happily exist under the amazon umbrella.

I *think* Amazon and WB are simply looking at this as a way to engage their fan base and offer up a chance for participation, with the added bonus of opportunity for the writers who do participate to make some money off it themselves. It seems more like they're are creating a platform to crowd-source tie-in works, and because of the rights arrangements anything the properties' owners like they can take and make canon.

And yeah, there doesn't seem to be a name for it other than fan fiction - but I think it's likely (and maybe intended) to create a new kind of fan fiction, as opposed to granting sanction or taking over the already existent fanfic community who are, I'd bet, going to just continue on doing their own thing.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 3, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> The obvious differences are that it is licensed, controlled for content, and subject to approval by Amazon.



From the information we have so far it looks to me like it is licensed, controlled for content and subject to approval by the _IP holder_. Amazon is providing a platform and gaining distribution rights. If the IP holder wants to license fan fiction, they are perfectly within their rights to do so. 

Are we saying here that fanfiction is by nature unlicensed? If so then fanfiction is by nature a copyright violation that most authors and publishers, but not all, choose to overlook. Providing a legal platform for fanfiction (some of which is commissioned for this project) is, in my opinion, a bold, innovative and very welcome move on Amazon's part. Too bad IP holders like the Tolkien Estate will NEVER authorize fanfiction. Ah well.


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## Chilari (Jun 3, 2013)

Amazon have stated that all submissions will be subject to their approval - which requires that they meet the IP holder's content guidelines, but also that they meet Amazon's own standards for things like length, quality of written English (they won't approve works with numerous spelling, grammar and typographical errors, for example) and as well Amazon's own content guidelines (no sex, gore, excessive violence, etc). The licensiing and content control are from the IP holder; approval seems to be Amazon's decision, though, provided a submission meets the IP holder's content guidelines and is a licensed world.

I'm not sure, to be honest, that this is a good thing for fanfiction because I think involving money might take some of the heart and soul from fanfiction, or at least leave those written with heart and soul in the dust of those written with the goal of finding commercial/popular appeal. Or perhaps not in the dust of, but competing with. And then new fanfic writers will see that kind of fanfic and think this is the way it's meant to be done, not the heart and soul way, and will become commercially-driven writers instead of heart and soul-driven writers. So when some of them come to write original fiction a few years down the line they lack that certain something, not entirely, perhaps, but they have less of it.

Maybe I'm being melodramatic.

I find it highly unlikely that licenses will be sold for the properties I might be interested in writing for or reading in, though, so it's highly unlikely that any of this will have an impact on me at all.


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## danr62 (Jun 3, 2013)

I'm not sure whether this program will find many writer's who are primarily motivated by money or not. Comparing this program to general self publishing, there are several pros and cons if money is your motivation.

I think there's more money to be made in self publishing because of the higher royalty rate and a larger audience, but it's also easier to get lost in the shuffle. With this program, you get lower royalties but you already have a built in niche audience that would be much easier to stand out in. I'm interested in how these factors will balance out, commercially speaking.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 3, 2013)

Chilari said:


> I'm not sure, to be honest, that this is a good thing for fanfiction because I think involving money might take some of the heart and soul from fanfiction, or at least leave those written with heart and soul in the dust of those written with the goal of finding commercial/popular appeal. Or perhaps not in the dust of, but competing with. And then new fanfic writers will see that kind of fanfic and think this is the way it's meant to be done, not the heart and soul way, and will become commercially-driven writers instead of heart and soul-driven writers. So when some of them come to write original fiction a few years down the line they lack that certain something, not entirely, perhaps, but they have less of it.



With all due respect to fanfiction writers, if the heart and soul of the process comes from being an illegal action, then it can go.


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## Steerpike (Jun 3, 2013)

Chilari said:


> Does that stop it being fanfiction though? I don't see it as being the same as, for example, the official novels of the Trek universe or the Dr Who universe, written by individuals who in many case did start out writing it as fanfiction. Licensed isn't the same as official or canon. The licensing elements seems to me to simply be the difference between posting it for free or publishing it for money without breaking copyright laws. It doesn't make it any less fanfiction, and nor does it make it canon.



It's a good question. I don't know where the line is. Many people don't consider the official Star Wars and Star Trek novels to be canon, for some reason. I don't find those to be fanfiction myself, though. One difference may be that when it comes to those Star Wars and Star Trek novels (or other such novels) there is often a general story arc that the IP owner puts in place, and the writers that are hired follow the general story. Whereas in the case of this Amazon venture, it looks like the fanfic writer just writes what they want and it either gets approved or doesn't.


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## Chilari (Jun 3, 2013)

Well, writing fanfiction isn't illegal, really. Making money from unauthorised use of someone else's intellectual property is, but most fanficcers aren't trying to do that. They're just trying to write something in a world they enjoy. That's where the heart and soul comes from: their passion for the source material. Introduce money to the equation and they'll gravitate towards the most popular themes from the fandom, rather than where they personally want to take it.


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## Steerpike (Jun 3, 2013)

Actually, writing it and making it publicly available (e.g. on the web) is a copyright infringement whether or not any money is made. Copyright allows statutory damages, and the infringer does not have to make money or even attempt to. So assuming the material being used by the fanfic writer is covered under copyright, it's a violation when the fanfic is made available.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 3, 2013)

Chilari said:


> Well, writing fanfiction isn't illegal, really. Making money from unauthorised use of someone else's intellectual property is, but most fanficcers aren't trying to do that. They're just trying to write something in a world they enjoy. That's where the heart and soul comes from: their passion for the source material. Introduce money to the equation and they'll gravitate towards the most popular themes from the fandom, rather than where they personally want to take it.



It is, in fact, a copyright infringement whether you are making money or not. And infringing on someone's copyright is illegal. The idea that it's ok as long as you aren't making money is a myth. Any author could, if they wanted to, force fanfiction of their IPs to be taken down. It's just generally not worth it, though some authors do go on record to condemn fantfiction based on their work. 

And suggesting that money will ruin the heart and soul of fanfiction is like suggesting that money ruins the heart and soul of fiction in general. Perhaps no writers should make money. Then only the people with real passion would write books and there wouldn't be any authors taking advantage of trends.


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## Jeff Xilon (Jun 4, 2013)

Mythopoet said:


> ...And suggesting that money will ruin the heart and soul of fanfiction is like suggesting that money ruins the heart and soul of fiction in general. Perhaps no writers should make money. Then only the people with real passion would write books and there wouldn't be any authors taking advantage of trends.



I couldn't agree more. I get why it's a thing in fanfiction, but the idea that artists can't desire money always annoys me. As does the idea that the only real writers are the ones who do it as a compulsion that they can't control. John Scalzi had a great post on this a while back: A Moment of Financial Clarification

That's what I want - to get good enough to live off writing, and if someone else sees a path to that same goal that goes through fanfiction (of the "traditional" or Amazon variety) I say - more power to them. You can write quality things you care about while aiming at dollar signs.


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## Steerpike (Jun 4, 2013)

Most fiction writers will never earn enough to make a living at it, so there may be a bit of ego-soothing going on when people look down at financial motivations. I think one can write just as well or poorly doing it for they money as one can doing it for the art. I don't really care which motivation a person has.


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## Chilari (Jun 4, 2013)

Mythopoet said:


> It is, in fact, a copyright infringement whether you are making money or not. And infringing on someone's copyright is illegal. The idea that it's ok as long as you aren't making money is a myth. Any author could, if they wanted to, force fanfiction of their IPs to be taken down. It's just generally not worth it, though some authors do go on record to condemn fantfiction based on their work.
> 
> And suggesting that money will ruin the heart and soul of fanfiction is like suggesting that money ruins the heart and soul of fiction in general. Perhaps no writers should make money. Then only the people with real passion would write books and there wouldn't be any authors taking advantage of trends.



You are putting words into my mouth. I didn't say money would ruin it, I said that adding money to the equation could result in a narrowing of the core of licensed fandoms as those who write for the money first, and not because they love the show, seek to sell stuff rather than enjoy the fandom. Fanfiction is very different from original fiction; people are far more willing to share unrefined works because they know they can't make money from it. That makes fanfiction very diverse, if not always of sparkling quality.

In original fiction, I believe that the author should be no more motivated by money than the passion for the story. That could mean 50% split between them, or it could mean money doesn't come into it. But if they're primarily in it for the money, they churn out popularist rubbish - the stuff that makes bestseller lists but still only gets an average of 2 stars from the professional critics. I can think of a few that hit that button. Personally, I don't enjoy reading that kind of thing. Sure, many do, but quality isn't a democracy. Money can be a motivator - who wouldn't want to be paid to do what they love? For a start, it would mean they can quit a job they don't like - but when the mentality is "I can make oodles of money doing this, now what story will get me the most?" then that's not the way to make good stories.

As for the illegality thing, you seem to be confusing illegal with immoral. They aren't necessarily the same thing. Most authors leave fanficcers alone because they don't mind - it's not doing anyone any harm if they're not trying to make money from it. If illegal and immoral were synonomous, there's be more laws about corruption, and fewer about eating mince pies on Christmas Day.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 4, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Most fiction writers will never earn enough to make a living at it, so there may be a bit of ego-soothing going on when people look down at financial motivations. I think one can write just as well or poorly doing it for they money as one can doing it for the art. I don't really care which motivation a person has.



I think it's more a matter of the publishing industry spending decades perpetuating the idea that authors can't and shouldn't expect to make a living off of their writing, and therefore shouldn't treat it like a career, so that they can get away with paying them less. Fortunately, this is changing.



Chilari said:


> In original fiction, I believe that the author should be no more motivated by money than the passion for the story. That could mean 50% split between them, or it could mean money doesn't come into it. But if they're primarily in it for the money, they churn out popularist rubbish - the stuff that makes bestseller lists but still only gets an average of 2 stars from the professional critics. I can think of a few that hit that button. Personally, I don't enjoy reading that kind of thing. Sure, many do, but quality isn't a democracy. Money can be a motivator - who wouldn't want to be paid to do what they love? For a start, it would mean they can quit a job they don't like - but when the mentality is "I can make oodles of money doing this, now what story will get me the most?" then that's not the way to make good stories.



Perhaps you should clarify what you mean by people who write "for the money". It's possible that you are really only referring to people who view fiction writing as a get rich quick scheme and will jump on any fictional bandwagon in the hopes that it will be their winning lottery ticket to the kind of fame and fortune that J.K. Rowling achieved. For what it's worth, I've only ever seen anecdotal evidence that such people exist. I think the idea is probably just a strawman. Certainly I don't think that type of person exists in such numbers that they are worth thinking or worrying about. All the writers I have encountered truly love their craft. News flash: certain tropes are very popular among readers and writers because a lot of readers and writers genuinely love those tropes, not because they think those tropes are profitable.

On the other hand, there is an ever growing amount of writers who view writing as their career and rightly want to make a decent living at it. In order to be able to have writing as a career they need to be able to write stories that are marketable. Of course this was a lot harder when you had to get a publisher to take your book to market. Now that you can go directly through online retailers to get to readers it is much easier to write marketable fiction. A good writer can do well even in a niche market and it means that you can find a market for whatever it is you love to write, rather than trying to please agents and editors just to put food on your table. 




Chilari said:


> As for the illegality thing, you seem to be confusing illegal with immoral. They aren't necessarily the same thing. Most authors leave fanficcers alone because they don't mind - it's not doing anyone any harm if they're not trying to make money from it. If illegal and immoral were synonomous, there's be more laws about corruption, and fewer about eating mince pies on Christmas Day.



I think it is you who are confused. The way our law works, the illegality of an action has nothing to do with whether the victim "minds" it, though sometimes whether or not you are prosecuted for an illegal action depends on whether or not the victim minds. An intellectual property belongs to the creator of that intellectual property for the life of the copyright, unless they license that copyright to another entity. Regardless, whoever holds the copyright owns the property. Anyone who uses that intellectual property in their own publicly available work is infringing on the copyright and copyright infringement is illegal. However, copyright infringement is pretty much only policed by the copyright holder. It is up to them to protect it (and owners of copyright who are not the original creator can lose the copyright if they do not actively protect it). This means that the copyright holder can choose to act against and even prosecute against copyright infringement (including fanfiction). Or they can choose to overlook it. Whether they choose to prosecute or not has nothing to do with the illegality of the action. It just means that if they choose not to prosecute and turn a blind eye to fanfiction, you're lucky because you're not going to get into trouble.

Imagine that someone stole your wallet. You could contact the police and attempt to get the perpetrator arrested for their crime. Or you could say to yourself, "Perhaps the poor guy is going through a tough time in his life, to need my wallet" and choose not to do anything about it other than report your credit cards and identification stolen. Does that make the other person's act of stealing your wallet legal, just because you didn't mind? No, it does not. It's still a crime, you're just choosing not to pursue prosecution of that crime. Same thing, basically.


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## Chilari (Jun 4, 2013)

Theft of a wallet and writing fanfiction are by no means the same thing. Theft of a wallet deprives an individual of property. Writing fanfiction does not. Sure, intellectual property is protected by copyright laws and I have not claimed that an IP holder's failure to persue fanfiction makes it legal to produce it. I have claimed that if an IP holder, such as an author, permits fanfiction or indeed encourages it (some do) then it is not immoral to write fanfiction. Nobody is harmed by it (like a wallet being stolen). My point is, fanficcers shouldn't be made to stop just because it is illegal, if the IP holder has given permission for their IP to be used in fanfiction, even if it is unofficial, unlicensed fanfiction. If the IP holder has said "don't use my stuff for fanfic" that should be respected, not merely because it is the law but because it is the right of the IP holder to control their IP.

That said, the law only covers works published, such as on the internet, and as far as I know there is no law to say a fanficcer can't write fanfiction, just that they cannot publish it. In this, publication includes posting on somewhere like fanfiction.net because it becomes available to members of the public.

You may be right about the "get rich quick" writers. They do exist, I think - think of the unofficial parodies that sprung up around LOTR when that got made into movies, and Harry Potter and things like that, and the awful vampire novels that were rushedly self-published after Twilight became big. Sure, some of the vampire novels that came out in the wake of Twilight were authors who genuinely enjoyed writing vampire novels and saw their opportunity, but I have seen (very cheap, with bad covers) stories in the Kindle store which have flat, tired characters which are suspiciously similar to characters in popular works, and flat, boring stories, which were clearly written because the author saw an opportunity to make money from Twihards. I want to make that distinction: some people spot a marketing opportunity to maximise the sales of something they have already lovingly crafted. Some people, fewer, see a marketing opportunity and write something deliberately to meet a certain type of audience, with the primary goal of making money from that audience. They do exist, but perhaps you're right, perhaps it's not in the kinds of numbers which we should worry about.

I certainly agree that an author has a right to make a living from their work and that suitable royalty rates are essential for that. Doing what you love as a career shouldn't be mutually exclusive with making a reasonable income, if there is an audience willing to pay for it (I love eating chocolate, I don't expect to make money from that).

But to reiterate, writing for money is fine. Writing fiction novels for money is fine. But a story should be produced with love and passion, not with dollar signs in your eyes. Market considerations is one thing, but when there's a decision between, "should I do X because it will make me more money, or Y because it's the way the characters would realistically act in this situation", then I say, Y is the answer. The story's and the characters' integrity shouldn't be sacrificed for money. When there's an option Z which doesn't require a sacrifice to the story but does increase potential income, that's a perfectly viable option.

If the money/passion split is 50/50, then the author is considering market forces and what will sell but also considering what's right for the story, the characters, and for them.

If the money/passion split is more like 80/20, then quality or integrity is liable to be cut in favour of marketability. See: Michael Bay movies (no plot, lots of pretty explosions); 100/0 are incredibly rare, perhaps, but do pop up occasionally and often do, inexplicably, sell.

If the money/passion split is 0/100, then I don't think that's necessarily good either. If money, or rather, marketability is entirely ignored or indeed rejected, then you've got to wonder whether it's actually any good as a story. Sometimes it is, sometimes not. Fanfiction is produced generally with this kind of approach, and some of it is cringlingly awful and some of it is brilliant, because passion can also cover passion for the craft of writing as well as the story, and author integrity. Good works can be produced this way, but it can be hugely variable.

Point being, making fanfiction sellable, for the first time since copyright laws came into place, means that there is this marketing opportunity - an existing audience looking for more in the world they're interested in - which inevitably you will find some people decide to create for, who would otherwise not be remotely interested in the IP it's based on. As things settle down I think we'll see these disappear, but for now, I wonder how many people there are who went out and watched Gossip Girl or whatever the other two were having previously not bothered, read the fan forums, and started working on some easy-sale story that only just tops 10k words (why waste time on something longer?) A few perhaps, and if I wanted to read fanfiction in the fandoms that are licensed, I would find the first few things published and, not knowing until I'd bought and paid for it, wouldn't be able to tell the difference between that produced by loving fans and that produced by vultures.

Personally, I'd rather read the stuff produced by the people who were writing fanfiction before the licenses were sold, as opposed to the people who'd never watched a single episode until Kindle Worlds was announced.


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