# Magic and Food!



## Sheilawisz (Aug 8, 2017)

Hello everyone here in the World Building Forum!

I have been watching the brand new _The Worst Witch_ TV series.

Some of you know that I am a great fan of Mildred Hubble and her adventures, since I started a thread about the original series some years ago. In the new series, at certain moment Mildred asks why is it that Miss Cackle's Academy for Witches is equipped with functional kitchens instead of just preparing food by magical means.

One of the older students answers that magical food has no nutritional value, and that's it!

The answer is really great in my opinion, so simple and beautiful. In contrast, in the world of _Harry Potter_ it's explained that the Witches and Wizards cannot obtain food by magic because that's one of the few things that their transfiguration powers cannot do.

I mean, they cannot transform a rock into a sandwich? How silly (and this comes from a fan of HP), I really prefer how it works in Mildred's world!

So, how about your Fantasy worlds?

Are your magical characters capable of producing their own food by means of magic? Is the resulting food just as good as ordinary food? What is the difference?

It's something quite funny to think about.


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## Queshire (Aug 8, 2017)

Mages in my pet setting can make manna out of condensed mana, which I imagine tasting something like a sweet vanilla wafer. They have all the nutrition that you can live off of them, and there's a stereotype of nerdy mages doing just that while engrossed in their research.

Other classes can make basically the same thing, but it takes more work. Generally they'll just buy them at a store before heading out for a day of monster slaying.

Actual cooking is still the most popular. It gets boring eating the same magically conjured food all the time and the natural magic of the ingredients results in the food having magical effects of its own when properly prepared.


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## Orc Knight (Aug 8, 2017)

Unless they're one of the few actual reality warpers in the world, they generally can't. They can however, enhance food and drink with it. Some through rituals, some with spells to make that apple pie taste so much more delicious or just to entrance someone with it. It can be multiplied with magic, in some ways. But mostly, it's all about doing it on ones own. Or letting one of the races that are good at cooking do so. This is all generally Eld though. My only other fantasy world doesn't have any sort of magic. It's all the old fashioned way.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 8, 2017)

In the story marinating in my brain that actually DOES contain magic of that sort, creating or summoning or altering food would violate the rules, which forbid creating or fundamentally altering matter. 

I like the explanation that magical food has no nutritional value, but people eat things with no nutritional value all the time


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 8, 2017)

On the other hand, a magic system centered around food and cooking would be really cool! People could gain powers by eating certain things, but such things have to be prepared carefully in a special way or else they either won't work or will backfire. Different foods grant different powers. 

I also like the idea of a candy shop of magical candy.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Aug 8, 2017)

^Hmm...you just gave me an awesome idea for a new book...[a magic system based on food and cooking, not the candy].


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## Steerpike (Aug 8, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> ^Hmm...you just gave me an awesome idea for a new book...[a magic system based on food and cooking, not the candy].



There is a kid's show on Amazon called Just Add Magic, where three girls find a cookbook that allows them to perform magic through baking.


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## elemtilas (Aug 8, 2017)

Sheilawisz said:


> So, how about your Fantasy worlds?
> 
> Are your magical characters capable of producing their own food by means of magic? Is the resulting food just as good as ordinary food? What is the difference?
> 
> It's something quite funny to think about.



In *The World*, this is something you just wouldn't want to try. Not if you're smart, anyway.

Technically it's feasible. In theory, any kind of transformation is simply the result of pushing tiny beads and strings of matter about in different directions. But in practice it's quite a different story. The concentration and focus required to turn SiO[SUB]2[/SUB] into a terribly complex riot of cooked, partially cooked and uncooked organic molocules plus an array of aromatics to tickle the palate would be stupendously excessive. You could probably take a glass marvel and, some while in a fortnight or so, turn it into a wee steamed pea with salted butter, steaming fresh.

But, what's the point? It would be far easier to get your lazy backside off the workbench, go down to the local green grocer's, get a little jar of Jolly Jotun's jarred peas, go home, pop it open and warm it up over a little magically powered quick cooking fire ring. You'd at least get a whÃ³le serving of veg that way!

So, it's not so much that the magically created pea has no nutritional value per se, it's more that the nutritional value extracted from the pea doesn't come anywhere close to making it worth the effort.

Also, dabbling in this kind of magic is perilous. In the extreme. There was, for example, the story of Wilbert the Wanwise, a great wizard, formerly of Narfoun in Angera. He discovered a way of quickly poufing kernels of corn into existence. Being rather fond of grits of a morning, he thought this magic would be a capital idea to implement.

Magic and living things being what they are in The World, and having eaten three ears of his corn for luncheon, it happened that by mid afternoon he began feeling rather ill at ease. This turned to bloat and by the early evening, while he was entertaining several other wizards about his project, to rather uncomfortable cramps which hs tried to keep hidden from his guests. What he couldn't keep hidded was the incessant churning of his belly. This churning and roiling was noted by several colleagues at the dinner buffet, and they turned to take an interest in what might happen.

Well, when the haze of blood spatter and flying bits of Wilbert Wanwise settled to the floor, his corpse was found to be at the center of a wild and healthy field of corn that had sprouted inside him and was undoubtedly quite happy to get out.


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## skip.knox (Aug 8, 2017)

I'm with others on this--no creating food by magic. No magic as microwave.

But what is food? I'm thinking here of plant magic, by which magicians create, enhance and control plants. So, why not wheat or olives or cauliflower? Medieval priests not only blessed the fields before planting, they were *expected* to do so by villagers. I could see the same expectations of wizards. After all, what activity is more important than feeding the people? Even kings gotta eat.


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## Queshire (Aug 9, 2017)

Haha, it's interesting to see how many people go with no magical food.


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## Sheilawisz (Aug 9, 2017)

Some great answers here, thanks everyone!

It does not surprise me much to see that most people do not have effective magical food in their Fantasy worlds. I am not sure why, but the idea of having nice and easy meals out of thin air is not very popular.

Who knows, maybe in most stories it would make life too easy for magical characters?

In my first ever Fantasy trilogy, Mages can easily create almost anything out of nowhere and that includes all types of food. They do it in order to get everything from bread, rabbit and cake to the plum juice that they love. The magical food is indistinguishable from ordinary food, and non-magical people can enjoy it too without adverse effects.

Curiously, these Mages in particular have the belief that magical plum juice is not as good as the natural one... this explains why they travel a great distance in order to purchase ordinary plum juice in a part of their world that is famous for it, and they really believe that they are getting the best of the best.

In reality both juices are exactly the same thing, so it's just a psychological thing.

The same happens in most of my other stories. However, things are a little different in my WIP _Alice into Darkness_. The Mages in that world can create their own food very easily, and for them it's delicious and nutritional, no problem. Still, this magically created food is not exactly the same as the natural thing.

If ordinary people eat any magical food, they cannot tell the difference and it's all nutritional and good... until the moment when it causes magical poisoning a few days later, and this is a very disgusting and extremely painful way to die.

The Mages in that world cannot just create huge amounts of food for their armies in times of war, since doing this would quickly eliminate all of their soldiers. This is why Queen Amethyst has been forced to cause near starvation to her civilians everywhere, so her armies are extremely well fed and ready to give a good fight against the invaders.

Alice is seen preparing her own food at kitchens sometimes, but that's only because she enjoys cooking and that's how she grew up in her first world, after all. This Mage in particular took a long time to develop her powers.

I love really powerful Magic, but I understand that many stories would not work well with it.


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## valiant12 (Aug 9, 2017)

In my curent seting you can't create food with magic.
You can't create drinkeble  water. You can't water plants with magical water. You can't create crops  with magic.

You can cook using magic. One of the best ice magic user also make greeat ice cream.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Aug 9, 2017)

My characters actually can manifest whatever they need magically, be it food or drink or bedding. One of the minor characters in my latest book, Hollowed, is quite skilled at it.


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## elemtilas (Aug 10, 2017)

Queshire said:


> Haha, it's interesting to see how many people go with no magical food.



Perhaps it's a general feeling, or perhaps it's just me, but I think this aversion to an obvious deus ex machina is a result of too much easy living in Star Trek. Ever since the idea of the replicator came along, it's just been too easy to live and survive in space. Need some antibiotics? Ask the replicator! Need a 12 inch spanner and a couple bolts? Ask the replicator! Need a cuppa tea? Ask the replicator! I hear it does a passable Earl Gray. Hot. And boring. If only because it's too perfect, too quick and too cheap.

It's just sci-fi magic, and I think applicable to our own fantasy considerations.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Aug 10, 2017)

Steerpike said:


> There is a kid's show on Amazon called Just Add Magic, where three girls find a cookbook that allows them to perform magic through baking.



There's also a middle-grade novel like this titled Bliss, by Kathryn Littlewood. I think it has a sequel too.


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## valiant12 (Aug 11, 2017)

> Ever since the idea of the replicator came along, it's just been too easy to live and survive in space. Need some antibiotics? Ask the replicator! Need a 12 inch spanner and a couple bolts? Ask the replicator! Need a cuppa tea? Ask the replicator! I hear it does a passable Earl Gray. Hot. And boring. If only because it's too perfect, too quick and too cheap.



I personaly don't use replicators or other similar free food divices in my space scy fi, because I don't like the aestetic. I prefer a more organic ship design bouth on the outside and the indside.


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## TheKillerBs (Aug 12, 2017)

Sheilawisz said:


> In contrast, in the world of _Harry Potter_ it's explained that the Witches and Wizards cannot obtain food by magic because that's one of the few things that their transfiguration powers cannot do.
> 
> I mean, they cannot transform a rock into a sandwich? How silly (and this comes from a fan of HP), I really prefer how it works in Mildred's world!



There's a bit of dialogue in Deathly Hallows that explains that rule a little, so it doesn't seem so arbitrary. Ron is being a jerk to Hermione, comparing her cooking unfavourably to Molly's, Hermione complains that she's getting stuck cooking because she's a girl. Ron retorts that she's stuck cooking because she's supposed to be the best at magic. Hermione replies with this:



> _You_ can do the cooking tomorrow Ron, _you_ can find the ingredients and try and charm them into something worth eating[...]



Seems like it's not just lol nope can't do it because you can't do it and more like, can't do it because it's already really flipping hard to just cook by magic, so turning something that's already inedible into something you can eat by magic is too difficult.


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## Queshire (Aug 12, 2017)

You know, everybody has said about why they do or do not allow it, but nobody's really said why.

For me, the reason I allow magic to make food is because A) the story isn't about worrying about food or supplies and B) though based around magic, the tone I'm going for is almost like a sci fi space opera or mythic epic and the ability to poof up food is consistent with that sort of tone.

So, to everyone that has answered already, why do you allow or not allow it?


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Aug 12, 2017)

I allow it because the characters are often so in-tune with the universe that they can fulfill whatever needs they have instantly, and they are often higher-dimensional beings who live in peace and harmony with everything.


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## elemtilas (Aug 12, 2017)

Queshire said:


> You know, everybody has said about why they do or do not allow it, but nobody's really said why.
> 
> For me, the reason I allow magic to make food is because A) the story isn't about worrying about food or supplies and B) though based around magic, the tone I'm going for is almost like a sci fi space opera or mythic epic and the ability to poof up food is consistent with that sort of tone.
> 
> So, to everyone that has answered already, why do you allow or not allow it?



For my part, I did say why. The effort to reward ratio is too skewed. It's like using nuclear fusion to create gold from I don't know. Iron or something. Theoretically, you can smash small atoms together and make big atoms. Then knock of some extra neutrons until you get a wee bit of gold. Although mining and refining are difficult processes, they're easier and more profitable than atom smashing.

Same goes for creating food by dwimcraft in The World. Theoretically possible, but impractical to the point of useless. You'd starve before you ever got a plate of decent food on your table. Not much use that kind of magic!

As for point A, I'd ask in return: okey, so they don't worry about procuring food because a wizard can pouf it into existence without any problems. But that begs the question: why not just pouf up some super weapon that will kill the dragon so you can get the gold?

Or better yet, why not just pouf into existence pots of gold right in your front parlour so you never have to go on mucky adventures at all?  At least for me, we're back to the deus ex machina of the replicator. If you have magic or technology to take of all your basic problems (food and so forth), why not just apply that magic or technology to eliminate all your bigger problems too (dragons, Klingons, etc)?

This is just my opinion, but I don't see this kind of magic as particularly mythic or epic in nature. Myth and faerie stories are replete with magic, sure. But it always comes at high cost and usually ends up back-firing on its abuser. I mean, we never hear the Tale of How Clever Johann Bred His Goose That Laid the Golden Eggs and Opened Up a Dealership in the Valley Selling Golden-Egg-Laying Geese to Princes and Potentates Worldwide. 

The genie always runs out of wishes. The magic ring always disappears. The fool always insults the Fair Folk and the magic ... poufs.


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## Rkcapps (Aug 12, 2017)

Great discussion, great thread!

Whilst there is a subtle reason mentioned in HP, it wasn't mentioned in the first book (I'm currently re-reading The Philosopher's Stone). When the food appears out of no where at Hogwarts there is no mention of anything other than it appearing. I wonder that it's more for a reason directed to the target audience? After all, HP is aimed at kids and getting them to read and what better way to interest them but to wow them. Kids don't want to get dragged through rules. At least my three, who are all at the target age of HP don't!

But a YA or adult reader is more sophisticated and will go "Hey, out of thin air? I don't think so!"

I can be wrong, it's just an observation.

My audience is YA and food is served normally but I do have my MC, for a driving reason in the story, transform food but she can't click her fingers and make food appear. Why? She can affect things and control things but she can't create.


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## Simpson17866 (Aug 12, 2017)

When you eat food, many of the atoms of food are evacuated from your body as waste, but the rest of the atoms of food become part of your body. Your bones, your muscles, your blood... if you eat magical food to the exclusion of natural food for long enough, then you gradually approach 100% of your biomass having been created by magic.

What happens if the magic wears off?


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## Queshire (Aug 12, 2017)

elemtilas said:


> For my part, I did say why. The effort to reward ratio is too skewed. It's like using nuclear fusion to create gold from I don't know. Iron or something. Theoretically, you can smash small atoms together and make big atoms. Then knock of some extra neutrons until you get a wee bit of gold. Although mining and refining are difficult processes, they're easier and more profitable than atom smashing.
> 
> Same goes for creating food by dwimcraft in The World. Theoretically possible, but impractical to the point of useless. You'd starve before you ever got a plate of decent food on your table. Not much use that kind of magic!
> 
> ...



Point A is about what the story's about, so if the story isn't about those things then yeah, sure, why not do it?

In my pet setting a lot depends on who the mage is and who the dragon is, but I very much have characters who can do that with the average dragon.


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## Vaporo (Aug 13, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> On the other hand, a magic system centered around food and cooking would be really cool! People could gain powers by eating certain things, but such things have to be prepared carefully in a special way or else they either won't work or will backfire. Different foods grant different powers.
> 
> I also like the idea of a candy shop of magical candy.



You're in luck! A middle-grades book, but a pretty good one from what I remember:
The Candy Shop War: Brandon Mull: 9781481411196: Amazon.com: Books


For the purposes of my story, magically created food is certainly _possible_, it's just not particularly practical. In my story, there is a kind of magic that revolves around summoning objects out of thin air. In order to do this, the wizard has to delete one of their own memories and uses it like physical "mass" to form the object. However, memories are not a particularly sturdy material, so these constructs tend to be less "real" than other objects. 

Because constructs lack "realness," physically damaging and deforming them tends to cause them to stop existing. Breaking a construct down into its chemical components and using them as building blocks for your body will almost certainly cause it to collapse. In order to make their constructs "real," you either need to expend a lifetime of memories or obtain a piece of the raw material that the world was originally formed from. Neither option is particularly desirable, so going to all that effort to create the perfect steak dinner seems like a waste.


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## Sheilawisz (Aug 13, 2017)

Hello everyone!

This has been a really interesting discussion. I love to talk about Magic, and how it affects and connects with the story in question and its world. Some styles of magic would be incompatible with certain stories, but they work well in others anyway.

In most of my stories, magically creating great food out of nowhere is allowed because it's part of how cool Mages are. In my worlds, if you are magical you are not simply a person with powers: _You are Magic_, and that means that you are very special and above the rules of nature and science.

They can do loads of things that make their existence far easier than that of ordinary people, and that's part of the story. My magical characters face difficulties and trouble adequate to them, so they do have challenges of their own even if they do not even need food to survive.

In my first Fantasy trilogy the Mages would be able to provide enough food for the entire non-magical population of their world, but that does not happen because they are two separate societies. The Mages live in very dangerous and isolated mountains ruled by their own Queens, and the ordinary people rarely get to see them.

Also the non-magical folks in that world would never accept food created by Magic, because they are afraid of such things.

In Wander's Land, Queen Amethyst and her friends are capable of magically feeding the entire army. This would solve a huge problem in times of war, but it would be a terrible idea since they would be unleashing a lethal poisoning of every soldier that ingests even a single magical cookie.



TheKillerBs said:


> There's a bit of dialogue in Deathly Hallows that explains that rule a little, so it doesn't seem so arbitrary. Ron is being a jerk to Hermione, comparing her cooking unfavourably to Molly's, Hermione complains that she's getting stuck cooking because she's a girl. Ron retorts that she's stuck cooking because she's supposed to be the best at magic. Hermione replies with this:
> 
> You can do the cooking tomorrow Ron, you can find the ingredients and try and charm them into something worth eating
> 
> Seems like it's not just lol nope can't do it because you can't do it and more like, can't do it because it's already really flipping hard to just cook by magic, so turning something that's already inedible into something you can eat by magic is too difficult.



Yeah I remember Deathly Hallows very well.

The Wizards and Witches in _Harry Potter_ indeed cook using magic. Molly is seen doing that sometimes, and Fleur is a great magical housekeeper too. The difference is that they need the ingredients anyway, and they have well equipped kitchens with all of the necessary instruments.

When Harry and company were outlaws, they did not have access to decent ingredients to cook with. They were forced to catch and collect whatever that was available in the wild, and Hermione did her best to cook with that.

What _Gamp's Law of Elemental Transfiguration_ says is that you cannot _produce_ food with magic.

It means that Harry and friends could not simply collect some mud and transform it into pizza, for example. Also, the Room of Requirement can do anything except providing food for its inhabitants. I mean, they can teleport and travel back in time and turn people into ferrets, but they cannot turn rocks into bread?

This is one of the few things that I really dislike about the HP world, it feels like a very forced rule and we need to avoid such things in our stories.

I much prefer the explanation from _The Worst Witch_: You can magically create food and it tastes great, but it's simply not the real thing and there is little or no nutritional value contained in it. Then, it makes sense that they need ingredients and kitchens and it does not feel so strange.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Aug 14, 2017)

In my WIP, wizards are the ruling class, and among the wealthiest people on the planet. The magical item business is booming, and it has put wizards on the top of the social status pyramid. Wizards imbue items with magic to a particular purpose, to help with all manner of mundane tasks. Item-based magic is nearly always tied in some fashion to one or more elemental planes. And the elemental planes are not without their limitations.

Magical mugs and plates can be created that will serve up whatever a person asks for in the way of food or drink. The food and drink so conjured are magically created by drawing on the elemental planes to produce what is served, combining the elements (stone, water, flame, and air) in just the right ways to create the requested consumable. What is produced in this way is edible, flavorful, and nutritional. Everything, whether alive or dead or inorganic (humans, plants, cows, goblins, rocks, buildings, streams, etc.), consists of elementals, so whether you put the requisite bits together through biological means or magical means, it doesn't matter when it comes to flavor or nutrition. And there's no "wearing off of magic" for conjurations. The elementals are in whatever state they're in, and they tend not to change their state unless provoked, by the laws of nature or magic.

Magical dishes and other items that draw on the elementals can't be used repeatedly in the same location without exhausting the availability of elemental matter in that area. In normal circumstances, you can easily feed one person three meals per day with a set of these dishes without having to relocate, because the elemental material in the area will replenish fast enough. But you wouldn't want to rely on these dishes to feed an army.

These dishes aren't all that reliable. Wizards can't look into the elemental planes to see how much material is available in any given location, or if any of the four elemental planes might be depleted in that location at the time. So they have no idea if the plates/mugs will work at any given time in any given place. Moreover, some areas might replenish slower than others. There are lots of variables, none of which can be determined individually.

It's often non-wizards who buy or are gifted these dishes, and all they can do is try to use them. They either work or they don't, when the attempt is made. If they don't work, then you're cooking. If they do work, then you get to take a break from cooking.

Overusing a magical dish in a location could prevent other magical items from working there, due to the dishes having depleted the elementals in the area. That's why most of the magical items don't actually conjure consumables. They summon elementals for services, and then let the elementals return to their dimension, to allow them to serve again much sooner than is possible when waiting for them to pass through one's digestive tract. Cleaning is one service for which elementals are often summoned.

One of my viewpoint characters, a non-wizard, owns a set of magical dishes (a gift from her benefactor), and makes use of them, but sometimes she chooses to prepare her meals from real ingredients without even trying to use the dishes, especially when she's feeling bored, or isn't wanting to think about certain other things.

In one scene of my WIP, a group of characters is trying to avoid the baddies. The group finds a place to hide out for a while, but they have no food or water, and they believe they'll have to stay in hiding for several days. So some of them make a quick yet still risky trip to fetch a set of magical dishes from one of their homes, so they will be able to survive while hiding out. They just have to hope the dishes will work when they get them to their hiding place, and will work often enough long enough to keep everyone alive.

I haven't gone into all this detail in the WIP, but I figured it all out so my story will be self-consistent.


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## Insolent Lad (Aug 16, 2017)

In the overall magical scheme of most of my novels, 'magic' is largely based on being able to pull things out of other worlds. Now that would seem to work and the magically adept can pull food from another realm but — it is never completely untethered from that other world and will eventually pop back. Not such a good thing to happen to one after you've filled up or, worse, digested (I think it would automatically return before it became part of ones own body though I haven't specified this in any of the stories).

Of course, if one commands a demon or two, they can always be sent off to fetch food from somewhere in ones own world.


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