# Should You Write Practice Novels?



## Philip Overby (Jul 15, 2014)

For those that struggle with writer's block, inspiration, plot holes, etc., have you ever considered writing a practice novel? I've written several "failed" novels when I was in my twenties and I never really had anyone at the time to talk to about my issues with incoherent writing and over world-building. I feel like in some ways, many of those novels have prepared me for where I am now. I'll leave readers to be the judge, but I feel like I'm closer and closer to my ideal every day. I may never reach it, but I feel I'm getting closer because I've not put all my eggs in one basket.

So if you're thinking about writing a novel, should you actually write something you're completely passionate about right out the gate? I don't necessarily think so. By trying a practice novel, you're in some ways training yourself for when you're reading to really hammer out something you're putting a lot of stock in. Perhaps writing a practice novel can be like practicing guitar chords before you sit down to write a song. 

In any case, do you think every writer should start out only writing their "magnum opus" or should they start small and build up their writing chops?


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## mowque (Jul 15, 2014)

I have 'short stories' better for this then full novels. A full novel is just a giant investment of time and effort, I'd rather practice on a story only a few dozen pages long. The idea is sound though, in my opinion.


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## Svrtnsse (Jul 15, 2014)

I'm currently working on my first novel and it started out as a practice novel.
I'd initially planned a much more ambitious project, but the more time I spent thinking on it, the more I realized there were some pretty big issues with it that I would need to address before I could really get started on it. The existence of plot holes was my main concern at the time.

I decided I should try and work on something else while figuring out the details of the main project and the idea of a practice novel came up. I figured, like Phil mentions, that it might be a good idea to try and see if I could pull it off at all - writing a novel that is. I wasn't overly concerned about my writing skills (that too turned out to be a learning experience), but I know from past experience that I'm not particularly good at finishing what I start.

I also figured that with a practice novel I wouldn't be as passionate about the story and characters and it wouldn't matter too much if I failed. I wouldn't ruin my main story.

I'm very glad I did go the route of the practice novel.

I've learned a lot about writing since I started. I've improved technically and I've gained a lot of experience. I've also learned first hand that it's not the idea that counts, but what you do with it. 
One of the advantages of the practice novel that I mentioned above is that I didn't need to be so passionate about the story. I could just pick any stupid old idea and get started and that'd be it. No need to worry about making it a good story, just get going. It's just for practice anyway so it doesn't matter, right?

Turns out that even with a crappy, unoriginal, idea that thousands of people have done before (boy meets girl), I was able to get into the writing and create characters and events that I really care about. I think that was a really important realization.


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## Truepinkas (Jul 15, 2014)

IMO, it is all practice for whatever you end up doing next.  I can not imagine a scenario where I don't want the next thing I do to be better than the last.  

As for wasting 'good ideas', ideas are cheap.  Execution makes or breaks ideas.  It doesn't matter if the idea is new or fresh or old and tired, a sparkling execution will shine either way.  

I might recommend more shorts to beginers just because you can complete the arcs faster and better understand your story telling voice than slogging away at a novel for a year to learn the same things about yourself, but to each his or her own.


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## acapes (Jul 15, 2014)

I wrote around 9 or so novels before I sold one, and for me, it was the best way to go. 

Most importantly, I was practising writing whole novels rather than just openings. Working out satisfying ways to structure and finish a novel can be just as important as learning how best to open a novel, so I'm a fan of 'writing novels to get better at writing novels.'

Of course, heaps of folks write short fiction to get better at writing and then move on to bigger fish. It's almost relaxing to have that shorter time commitment.  

In terms of saving the magnum opus I think I'll come back to it one day


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## Svrtnsse (Jul 15, 2014)

Truepinkas said:


> IMO, it is all practice for whatever you end up doing next.  I can not imagine a scenario where I don't want the next thing I do to be better than the last.



This is true.
However...
I think the main difference is in the mind set. If you set out to write a massive epic fantasy series to shake the world you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself. If you're just practicing, you're giving yourself a lot more freedom to mess around and make mistakes and experiment.

Ideas are weird.
Like mentioned, it's all about what you do with them and not nearly as much about the originality or uniqueness of the idea. What bothers me about "wasting" an idea is if I decide to use it and then the end result isn't as good as I would have wanted it to be. Personally, I think it's unlikely that I would start over from the beginning and write the same story about the same characters again to get a better story out of the idea. 
I'd probably start a new project instead. This may work differently for other writers. I'm sure there are those who churn out slightly altered versions of the same story over and over again, but I'm not sure that's for me. Then again, it could be. It's hard to say since I really haven't finished anything yet.

I'd also like to second the notion that shorts may be a better way to go. They're not as major an undertaking as a novel is and you'll have an easier time finishing your project. If I knew when I started what I know now, I probably would have stuck with shorts for quite a while longer before sinking my teeth into an entire novel.


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## Ruby (Jul 15, 2014)

Oh, I hope not! I hope this epic unfinished series I'm writing is not just a practice novel! 

I thought that we're supposed to keep going until we reach the end of the first draft and that then we go back and write the novel as we edit it.

That's what I'm doing now via Campnano. 

I agree though, that it's a good idea to write other shorter stories whilst doing this. I enjoyed doing Philip's ABC Fantasy challenge ( can't we resurrect that, Philip?) as it was very freeing, informal and creative. I'm also doing artwork, drawing a cartoon series as a diversion and writing a couple of blogs.

But I have heard it said that you have to write a really bad novel before you write your masterpiece, so the question is: is this the masterpiece or the other thing?


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## Feo Takahari (Jul 15, 2014)

Philip Overby said:


> In any case, do you think every writer should start out only writing their "magnum opus" or should they start small and build up their writing chops?



This seems like a weird question to me. When I wrote _Eternal_, that was the best story I was capable of writing at that time. When I wrote _Kids These Days_, that was a better story, and that was the best story I was capable of writing then. I think _How Equestria Was Made_ is even better, despite being fanfiction. 

_None_ of those were "great" stories. All of them have recognizable writing flaws. But I wrote frankly and passionately about my personal pain, and I got some very strong responses.

Maybe you can't write your magnum opus off the bat. But is there something wrong with writing your practice story as if it were your magnum opus?


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## Penpilot (Jul 15, 2014)

Feo Takahari said:


> Maybe you can't write your magnum opus off the bat. But is there something wrong with writing your practice story as if it were your magnum opus?



Yes, I couldn't agree more.

In college, one of my teachers said, "You get what you put into it." It was just an off handed comment in a programming course, but to me, it struck the right chord a the right time.

No matter what you decide to write, you have to put your heart into it. If it means nothing to you, then how can you expect it to mean anything at all. A half-hearted effort is still a half-hearted effort, and IMHO all you learn to be is half-hearted in your writing.

Every writer has their golden idea, an idea so awesome in their mind that reality can never match the potential one sees in their head. My first novel was that golden idea. I put everything I had into it, and at the end of the day, there are parts that I think are good, but overall it was crap, but because I put so much effort into it, I learned tons.

The hardest part to do with that novel was to let it go. It was my baby that I cried blood over. It was the idea I had been holding for over 15 years. But I reached a point where I didn't know how to fix things, so I told myself that I couldn't make it any better, and that if I wanted to grow as a writer, I needed to move on and write another novel.

That was one of the biggest lessons I learned in novel writing, how to tell when I couldn't make something any better and how to let the novel go and move on to the next. It didn't mean I was abandoning the novel, I just had to set it aside. If I wanted to go back some day, I could.

Half way through my second novel, the solutions to most of the big problems with my first novel came to me in a flash. It was all so simple. I may go back one day, but right now, I just want to keep moving ahead.

No matter what novel you write, whether it's your magnum opus or just some story you thought would be cool, it has to be the most important thing to you right then, and you have to put your best foot forward, otherwise you might as well be typing, "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy," over and over.

IMHO you don't get better or stronger by staying within your comfort zone. You get better and stronger by pushing your limits. If you're too comfortable and relaxed, I'm not sure limits are being pushed in those instances. No pain, no gain.

I'll end this long ramble with a quote from the movie Gattica.

"You want to know how I did it? This is how I did it, Anton: I never saved anything for the swim back."


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## Devor (Jul 15, 2014)

The only thing about your first book:  You're probably writing it having never been through the editing process.  If you go through that process right, you should learn things that you'll apply throughout your future writings.  And editing them back in is nowhere near that easy.

If for no other reason, I think a practice _something_ can go a long way.  Make something and take it as far as you possibly can, even if it's just a short story.  It'll make your future works better.


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## Svrtnsse (Jul 15, 2014)

I hear what you're saying about putting in effort and all that and I agree that there's a point to it. I'm doing my best to make my novel the best it can be. If I didn't, there wouldn't be much point in it.
What I don't do is worry about that it's not going to be good enough. At least, I didn't do that when I started out. Now, that's changed.

One of the things I've experience while working on this is the practical application of the say "time is money". What I mean by this is that the more time I put into this novel, the more dear it becomes to me. It's well over a year since I sat down and wrote the first few paragraphs and I wasn't really all that bothered about what Enar was going through. 
A few months later, I got really upset when a friend of mine who'd read the first couple of chapters mentioned that Enar was a bit of a twat. At the time it surprised me a lot, but in retrospect it makes sense. This is something I don't think I would have experienced in the same way if I'd written a bunch of short stories instead (unless they all involved the same character).

Thinking back on it now, one of the benefits of writing a "practice" novel is that it actually got me started. Back then, I didn't have the courage to start on a magnum opus. I can see myself getting lost in planning and researching and outlining and not actually getting anything done. On top of that I would still be unsure I could pull it off.

I'm now more confident. I'm almost done with my first draft and I know that if nothing happens it will get done.

I don't know whether I'll ever work up the courage to write that great idea I had back then. It'll probably need some work. I'm not sure it really matters though. I'll still have it as a goal to write that story, and as long as I do I can write other stories. 
_Enar's Vacation _is turning out a lot better than I ever expected it to. I have a couple of ideas to potential follow-ups and I've got at least one character that's strong enough to hold up her own novel (and she's only nine).

So I don't feel that starting out with a practice novel was a mistake. I'm happy I did it and it's working out great for me. I can see how others may be suspicious about the concept, but I think that's very much related to how you approach writing.

For me, the important part isn't to tell a story. For me, the important part is to provide a pleasant, escapist, reading experience.


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## Philip Overby (Jul 15, 2014)

I do agree that it's good to put as much effort into what you're doing as possible. I just find I've met lots of people who are trying ambitious projects and often spend years trying to finish them. While I think that's fine (everyone works at their own pace) trying something less ambitious might help one learn how they write, what works best for them, etc. 

I wouldn't suggest doing a practice novel that you don't care about. It may just be a good idea to try something simpler before diving into something that has a complicated magic system, tons of races, and a huge cast of characters. I found out that trying something too ambitious hasn't worked for me many times. Now that I'm doing something easier, it's coming a lot more smoothly.


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 16, 2014)

I totally agree.  And here's my reason why...

Many of you know my story, I know Phil does, but I wrote one novel a year-ish for ten years.  They are all first-draft rubbish, really, but while I was writing, I was exploring characters, plot, story, setting.  ETC.

I wasn't editing out things like plot holes.  I wasn't tampering with scenes that went on too long.  I think that's absolutely why I was so productive.  And most of them are never going to be salvageable, but that's okay.  They say it takes a million words to get good at writing and for me, it was closer to 1.5m.  But that's okay, too.

I've done my million words.  I'm now street-legal.  I might not be a porsche yet, but I'm a respectable mid-sized sedan at least.  I'm not an embarrassing clunker who loses parts all over the highway.

I think as a learning writer, you have a few options.  You can make your investments different ways.  For me, I wrote to amuse myself.  I wasn't interested in being a great writer.  I wrote all those books to kill time and escape from stress of the real world.  I loved it.  It was my hobby.  But then when I wrote a couple books I thought were good, I wanted to push the envelope a bit.  
What if I'd spent those years working on the first novel (which is so terrible it should be burned to ash and buried at sea)?  I'd have spent ten years producing one single book that would probably be pretty good (and unrecognizable)by now.  OR, I could spend those years turning out massive amounts of words, learning while I go and not rethinking every step of the way.  I'm pretty happy with the path I took (though sometimes I wish I was just smarter about this whole thing from the get-go and learned about writing before I ever did it).

I am currently getting ready to send my first "good enough" book to a professional editor, and I'm finally feeling "ready".  Before, I just wasn't.  I'm glad that i have a stack of work behind me.  That alone gives me some confidence as I take scary steps and break new ground on this journey.  But knowing I can either write something new or rewrite something old, gives me options.  Right now, I'm looking toward the new, but that's just me.  I never wrote a book that held deep meaning to me.  I just wrote to entertain myself.  I guess that helped me separate this as "business" and not emotions.  Screw all my old books that suck.  They did their jobs and for those that I like well enough, their day will come, when I'm good enough at editing to pull them apart and whip them into something really good.  But for now, I have other things to work on.  

"Just keep swimming.  Just keep swimming..."


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## Penpilot (Jul 16, 2014)

Philip Overby said:


> I wouldn't suggest doing a practice novel that you don't care about. It may just be a good idea to try something simpler before diving into something that has a complicated magic system, tons of races, and a huge cast of characters. I found out that trying something too ambitious hasn't worked for me many times. Now that I'm doing something easier, it's coming a lot more smoothly.



For myself, I followed much the same route. Generally, I'm over ambitious with most things I jump into. Starting out in the deep end can be a good and bad thing. On the rare occasion, I find that I can swim, but more often than not, I'm drowning. And with my first novel, I drowned. It was 270k with three major POV characters and three more minor ones.  All the characters were split off geographically, so it was in essence like weaving three separate novels together.  

While I was crashing and burning with that, I decided that my second novel was going to be simpler. I decided I was going to give myself every chance of success. Of all the ideas I had for stories, I chose one that would play to my strengths. First it was set in a contemporary setting, an urban fantasy. Second, it only had one major POV character, but I later added one minor one. Third, it was set in my home town. And finally, I decided that I wasn't going to worry about the cliches I encountered. I decided I would play towards them.

The end result was IMHO way more successful. I still had bumps. I had to throw out the last half of the novel because it stunk, but I found my way through the bumps. To this day, I'm not sure if the reason the second novel was easier to write was because I went through all the tough experiences with my first novel, or if it was because it was just a simpler story. It only took me a month to write the first 50k of the first draft. It would end up being 110k.

In my second novel, I used a lot of my personal experiences and family history to shape the world and the characters. The end result was something that as of now I'm way more close to than my first novel.

One of the big lessons I learned writing my second novel was to keep things simple in all my stories. The complex is constructed using layers of simplicity. That's one of the things I found was wrong with my first novel, I tried to build this complex foundation, with secrets, and plot twist galore. It was all so convoluted, layers of complexity on top of complexity.

Maybe what I'm kind of taking issue with here is the term "Practice Novel." It kind of implies that it's not for real. I think instead of "Practice Novels" maybe it should be "simple novels". I agree it's probably best if a writer start with smaller and simpler projects as they're learning to write and work their way up to bigger and better. It's definitely the smart thing to do, but smart doesn't always come into play when you don't have the luxury of hindsight.


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## Terry Greer (Jul 16, 2014)

Sure sometimes its good to experiment with a style, genre, characters etc - but that's experimenting, not practice.
To damn a piece before you start as 'merely practice' seems almost like expecting it to be not good when you should be trying your best constantly.

Everything I do is practice for the next one (but that doesn't mean I set out with the intent of it just being an exercise). To differentiate some projects as practice and others as serious attempts to me doesn't make a lot of sense and actively works against you.

Just write your novel as best you can - later you can decide if its good - or was just practice for the next one.


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## Philip Overby (Jul 16, 2014)

> Maybe what I'm kind of taking issue with here is the term "Practice Novel." It kind of implies that it's not for real. I think instead of "Practice Novels" maybe it should be "simple novels". I agree it's probably best if a writer start with smaller and simpler projects as they're learning to write and work their way up to bigger and better. It's definitely the smart thing to do, but smart doesn't always come into play when you don't have the luxury of hindsight.



Perhaps "practice" isn't the right word. However, in retrospect, I can't really say the novels I wrote and aborted for whatever reason are salvageable in their current form. Therefore, I can't really look at them in any other way than being practice. However (again), I do think I can take pieces of those stories and use them for other ones. 

I feel like for people who have been at the writing game for a while now, we can give cautionary tales for those just starting out. I don't feel like I've wasted my time (as Caged Maiden said) I'm happy with the path I've taken to this point. But I wish I would have had more voices telling me to avoid something too ambitious from the get go and start smaller.


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## Philip Overby (Jul 16, 2014)

Terry Greer said:


> Sure sometimes its good to experiment with a style, genre, characters etc - but that's experimenting, not practice.
> To damn a piece before you start as 'merely practice' seems almost like expecting it to be not good when you should be trying your best constantly.
> 
> Everything I do is practice for the next one (but that doesn't mean I set out with the intent of it just being an exercise). To differentiate some projects as practice and others as serious attempts to me doesn't make a lot of sense and actively works against you.
> ...



Those are good points, but maybe the word "practice" has been clouding my point. Practice can very well be serious. I mean painters practice their craft the same as baseball players do. Why can't writers practice their craft as well? I do think people should always put their best foot forward no matter what they're doing, but my point is that a lot of new writers come right out the gate with massively complex stories they may not be prepared to write yet. I've seen dozens and dozens of writers talk about how they get stuck constantly or have doubts about their projects. I believe a lot of this has to do with the project just being too overwhelming. If one practices their craft in different ways, they can build to more difficult works later on.


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## TWErvin2 (Jul 16, 2014)

I think that every novel you write, you should write with the intent of it being publishable, and not a practice exercise.

The time taken to plan and write a novel is quite extenseive. While it can be chalked up as part of the learning process, focusing to make it as strong and potentially 'worthy of publication' as possible will leave one with a piece that, even if not perfect, might at a later date be in such a situation that it can be revised and edited rather than totally rewritten to be salvaged.

A quality first draft is never perfect, and instead of giving yourself permission since it's practice, the same permission to learn and experment can be given since it's a first draft.

I say this as with so many writers, time is a very limiting factor in their life and ability to write. A practice novel, I don't believe takes full advantage of that limited commodity.


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## Feo Takahari (Jul 16, 2014)

I guess one way of phrasing it is that you should practice all parts of the novel, not just some parts. The extreme example of not doing this is the writer who writes one beginning after another, but never completes a middle. In the same way, it's possible to write a whole bunch of stories without practicing editing and revision, which could be a problem when you've got something you think is worth editing and revising.


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## Philip Overby (Jul 16, 2014)

I agree that I've seen lots of people get excited about beginnings and then lose interest once they get to the middle. I've done this myself. Perhaps the better advice, rather than trying a practice run, would be to just see every project to completion. Of course this is pretty common advice, but it definitely allows you to learn how to complete something. Which even if you feel like your novel is probably never going to see the light of day, completing it teaches you a lot about how you write, what works and doesn't work, etc. 

I completed one novel a couple of years ago in the first draft form. Upon going back to edit it, there were just so many parts that were superfluous or didn't work. When I sat down to write my current WIP, I kept these points in mind. I think it's always good to make keep notes about each project so that you know what you have trouble with and what you're really good at. Maybe _that's_ the best way to "practice?"


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## Incanus (Jul 18, 2014)

Great question.  I've been contemplating this issue for a while now.  I'm very happy to see what others with more experience under thier belts have to say about this.  I'm right now leaning towards using this approach, whatever terms may apply ('practice novel', 'simpler novel').  I'm trying to be smart about this.

I've got the BIG idea--it's large, it's complex, it's pretty original.  But I've never completed a novel before, only several bads starts.  I did finish a novella, even though I realized it was doomed early on, I saw it through, just to complete _something_(it's terrible).  The big idea needs far, far more skill and experience than I currently have.  I'm not even sure at this point if its one book, or a few.  Even then, it suggests sequels, or a series of sequels.

So, what I have in mind, then, is to take on a simpler, smaller novel idea--an average sized novel--and set it _in the same world as the first idea_; probably during a different era, or otherwise far removed in time.  I think this way, I could sort of address the two 'sides' of this issue reasonably:  I could work on a novel that is more 'do-able', and that I cared about, and was still 'publishable' (one can hope), but if it flops, the big idea will still be there, more or less undamaged.

In the meantime, while I ponder all this, I will try to dash out a batch of short-stories.

Does this sound like a decent approach?  A reasonable plan?


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 18, 2014)

So, I'm okay with the word "practice novel".  I would have to call my stack of manuscripts just that.  However, when I was writing them, I didn't see it as such.  I mean, you don't tell a minor league ball player his work is "practice", the same as you don't tell your T-ball kid he sucks at baseball.  he's doing the best he can.  But he isn't ready for the big leagues.  Right?

I think it's important for writers to know their strengths and weaknesses.  As soon as I learned my manuscripts stunk, I wanted to know WHY.  Turns out my plots are weak.  I mean, not even in the realm of a long Island Iced Tea.  More like iced tea with six spoons of sugar and a little pink umbrella.  Yeah, I sucked at plots.  And probably still do.  but now, I have a network.  When I have a hard time connecting the dots, I ask for help.  I don't skip over the sticky bits and ignore them, I send them to critters to get torn open, and I learn what to do from others with stronger plotting ability.  And in return, every place I think a romance cold be more authentic, an argument could be better dialogued, I leave my "What I wold do's" for my crit partners.  I'm not writing alone anymore.  I have friends.  Good friends.  With their head firmly upon their shoulders where mine slides off a bit.

With only myself as a judge, I couldn't possibly have seen the problems.  And it's only through four years of hard work, that I've built not only my skills, but those relationships to a point where work becomes easier.  Not EASY, EASIER.  3k word days come whenever I sit down for a few hours.  In fact, I had a 4k word day yesterday.  And you know what?  All those words were keepers.  No looking at majorly revamping in the future.  No "meh, good enough".  Nope, I had a good day yesterday.  And it's because of all the practice I've done.  I have some cutting to do for sure, but that's an easy edit.  

Practice is writing.  It's critiquing.  It's having critiques and writing outlines and writing summaries and writing Query Letters.  It all counts, everything that gets you to look harder at your work and see it with eyes wider open.

No time writing is wasted, but I think it's foolish to think your one big idea is going to get you from the beginning of the journey to the end.  Here's my reasoning:

Short stories have a very different goal than novels.  One, they focus on quick narrative.  Leanness counts when you have a 5k word limit.  They have a beginning, middle and ending that are all important.  No time to enter scenes for personal amusement.  It's a great way to get right into a character and get to business.  Novels sometimes meander because you have the luxury.  Not so with a short story.

Novels are a great way to explore complexity.  You can pants them or outline them, you can invent magics or races or whole worlds of rich culture.  They can be perfect opportunities to create change and examine the depth and breadth of personalities, overlapping goals, opposing goals, etc.  

When undertaking writing, I don't think anyone sets off saying, "I'll just plug some crap on the page and call it good."

Writers have stories to tell and draw from their own unique lives, experiences, and DESIRES.  If I want the hero to end up with the girl, I just MAKE IT HAPPEN!  However, story-telling is more complex.  To create a tale other people will enjoy, a writer must work hard to connect, create a pace that's desirable, and most of all entertain.  

When writing for my own amusement, I didn't have to please others.  And that one simple item, removed from the equation, made me productive, happy, confident, and positive.  It's hard to feel that way when you send those weak manuscripts through a crit group.  It doesn't score high and then the real work begins...figuring out how to turn a ground ball into a home run.


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## Garren Jacobsen (Jul 18, 2014)

I have a golf instructor who likes to say, "Practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes habit. Perfect practice makes perfect." Meaning that unless you go into something with the notion that you are going to give it the ole college try you are only hurting yourself because you make bad mechanics into a bad habit. As applied to novels, it seems that one should always, always, always go in with the idea that this novel is getting published dadgummit. Which, includes at least for me, one or two drafts before dropping the whole thing. The editing process, I feel, is more educational that just sitting down and writing a story. Therefore, I say every novel's a practice novel. Just like every game of sports or every round of golf is a type of practice. Or, in other words, a novel is another wonderful learning experience.


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## Svrtnsse (Jul 18, 2014)

I'm getting the feeling that this thread is getting hung up on the word practice and the various negative associations it may or may not have.
Sure, it's the word that was used, so I guess it's natural that it comes into focus, but I'm not entirely sure that was the original intent of the thread - or maybe it's me getting it wrong?

Maybe ask the question like this instead?
Should you dive into the deep end first or should you test the waters in the shallow end first?
I guess both approaches have merit. 
Jumping into the deep end forces you to learn to swim or you'll drown - it's all or nothing.
Wading in through the shallow end means you'll have more time to test the waters and figure out what you're doing in relative safety. If you keep at it, you'll eventually end up swimming in deep waters, but you might just as well end up splashing around in the shallows thinking you're actually swimming when you're not.

Different methods may work differently for different people.
For me though, starting in the shallow end and striving to get further and further into the deep end has worked great so far. I've been seeking help and gone out of my way to try and learn and improve and try out different things and I've done it with what I originally thought was a simple and manageable project.

I don't feel that referring to my WiP as a practice novel diminishes its value. I started it with the intent of learning what creating a novel is like: writing, editing, publishing, marketing - the works. The story itself wasn't important to me when I started out, but that doesn't mean I wasn't going to try to make it the best I could. It may not work for you - but so far, it's worked great for me.


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## Svrtnsse (Jul 18, 2014)

Incanus said:


> So, what I have in mind, then, is to take on a simpler, smaller novel idea--an average sized novel--and set it _in the same world as the first idea_; probably during a different era, or otherwise far removed in time.  I think this way, I could sort of address the two 'sides' of this issue reasonably:  I could work on a novel that is more 'do-able', and that I cared about, and was still 'publishable' (one can hope), but if it flops, the big idea will still be there, more or less undamaged.



This is almost exactly what I'm doing.
I didn't really care about the story itself when I started it, but that's changed as a consequence of writing it.


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 18, 2014)

I agree.  I think the point is that some people jump into the deep end and don't realize how deep it is.  Or that there's a current that's ready to drag you under (the industry standard).  It's all well and good to think "hey, I've got a story I want to tell and I think other people will like it too".  But getting that first story whipped into professional shape... well, it's a long road.  It isn't something to be lightly undertaken if that's your goal.  My goal in writing was to amuse myself. I accomplished that goal. I wrote my million words, never worrying anyone else was going to read them.  In fact, poor Phil has seen more of them than anyone else (Thanks a bunch, buddy.  You rock more than I can say!)

Are the novels useless?  Well... that depends.  Do I feel like doing the major rewrites that it'll take to make them palatable?  That's on me.  But they aren't the standard required to publish, self or traditional.  I wouldn't want the world to see my name on those.  That means they served their purpose, learning, practice, call it what you want.  I learned from them, got better, and have moved on.  While I'd never advocate throwing old work out if one isn't inclined to purge, I think every year, a writer should probably look back on older work and say, "hm... I'm way better now", even if those old stories are fairly good.  I have stories I wrote last year for challenges or whatever, and I still like them. But I'm better now.  But if I hadn't written those stories and experimented with words, POV, story-telling, tone, etc.  I wouldn't have gotten better.  It's all "practice" and the more of it you do and the more you try to improve, the better you get.

Challenges allow me to not be emotionally invested in what I'm writing.  I don't give a fig about the character.  They are a means to an end for me (writing a compelling/ amusing short story in two days, usually).  The problem comes in (and I've seen this dozens of times) when a writer has very few actual writing skills (and I'm not on any sort of horse, high or otherwise) and they bite off more than they can realistically chew.  Few people pace their journey appropriately in the beginning.  Most of us saw a movie and thought we could do it one step better, or we had a vision for a world we were dying to write in.  

Me?  My goals were simple.  Escape from my day and night and all weekend job of selling cars.  And make a couple bad things happen to some characters named for my cutthroat coworkers.  Yeah, I was 21, sue me.  NO don't.  Any resemblance to people, imaginary or real, is coincidental.  haha.

Anyways, the goal is what's out of scope for most new novelists.  My dog isn't a search and rescue dog just because he's a German Shepherd.  I'm not a competent novelist because I worked for my high school newspaper, wrote a couple articles for MS and have a book of cute poems I wrote in Middle School.  

It's hard work.  It's sweat, tears, and isolating if you let it be.  Friends help a lot.  Critiques help a lot.  I rewrote the beginning of my WIP four times.  Not edited, REWROTE.  The last one (which I turned into a post, Editing or why we leave this for last ) I thought I had the magic combination to appease all my betas.  But then I sent it to another published novelist and he wrote me back, saying "It's clear you don't know how to begin a novel".  WHA?  You need thick skin and good ears and a lot of tenacity to do this right.  I think I have all three now, but they took time to form over the past four years. (I just rewrote that first chapter AGAIN, BTW)

Some people want to write what they want and self-publish when they're done, and that's one in the bag and onto the next.  I occasionally think, "eew, that wasn't quite ready."  But that's ME.  I have betas who continue to tell me I'm not ready, so I've had to make the tough decision that I'm just not good at editing right now.  Not good enough.  I'm sending my work to a professional editor, and I'm going to pay a lot of money for what work I can't seem to get right myself.  

Everyone has to make those choices for themselves when they come to it.  I think biting off more than you can chew is a mistake, but it's hard not to do, because in the beginning, you lack the experience to properly judge.  Honestly, I've seen more than one writer on this site I've popped in with a chat and said, "I just want to tell you how much I enjoyed your challenge story" and they reply that they only started writing six months earlier.  I mean... Part of me wants to strangle them because they're brilliant with no experience, and part of me is just overjoyed someone found the keys to success so much easier than I have.  

It's a road and for some, it's rockier than others, but the surest way to encourage a new writer to stick with it, is to advise them to start a little smaller than what they think they can handle.  Because, so often stories expand in content and complexity as we write them, and if you get hung up on your first work, you're likely to not move on and try again after something crushes your spirit.  And by crush your spirit, I mean any or all of:  Agents rejecting it over and over, critiques coming back with harsh comments, realizing you can't MAKE yourself finish the travesty that started as a wonderful idea, etc.  It's all hard to take for some folks and others, water off a duck's back.  Each person has to assess their needs, goals, and tenacity.  They all should try, however.  Try their damndest, whatever the goal or outcome.


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## Philip Overby (Jul 18, 2014)

Svrtnsse said:


> I'm getting the feeling that this thread is getting hung up on the word practice and the various negative associations it may or may not have.
> Sure, it's the word that was used, so I guess it's natural that it comes into focus, but I'm not entirely sure that was the original intent of the thread - or maybe it's me getting it wrong?
> 
> Maybe ask the question like this instead?
> ...



I believe I should have went with the term "simpler novel" to start out. Practice seems to come across like it's pointless or useless, even though I don't think so. There is a ton of stuff I write just for fun. You can go peruse the Challenges section for that. I don't believe most of the things I've written in the Challenges section are meant to be published. They're just exercises I'm doing to test out characters, ideas, and such. It's kind of like me publicly doodling. 

I like Caged Maiden's approach to this idea. When she was writing her novels, she certainly didn't see them as practice novels. She did her best to make the coolest novels should could make them. However, in retrospect, she learned what to do and what not to do through those novels. May some of them see the light of day in the future? Certainly, but maybe not in the original incarnation. 

I guess some of the perception is that every thing written should be polished and published? Or at least attempted to do so? I like the idea of this, but it hasn't been my reality (until recently). I just hope no one reads this thread and thinks I'm advocating writing "throw away" novels. My main idea was just don't try something so ambitious right out the gate as you're more than likely going to get stuck like hundreds of other writers before you. Like me.


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## Incanus (Jul 19, 2014)

Philip Overby said:


> I guess some of the perception is that every thing written should be polished and published? Or at least attempted to do so? I like the idea of this, but it hasn't been my reality (until recently). I just hope no one reads this thread and thinks I'm advocating writing "throw away" novels. My main idea was just don't try something so ambitious right out the gate as you're more than likely going to get stuck like hundreds of other writers before you. Like me.




Exactly.  Should I end up taking this approach, I have absolutely no intention of working on a 'throw-away'.  I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm not in love with the idea, I'm just not going to work on it.  I will only work on this 'easier, stepping-stone' novel if I can get the main ideas, characters, setting, and plot standing up; and all appropriate to the scope.  I've got to be happy with it if I'm to spend time and energy on it.

Forget the terminology used in discussing this topic, just look at the concept behind it.  In this discussion, there have been a number of cautionary tales told.  Aspiring writers took on projects that were eventually deemed too ambitious.  My current situation seems to have a lot in common with where they were.  I value the wisdom that they have chosen to impart.  I'm still debating all this in my head.  I really, really, really, really want to get to work on the main story in big way.  But I want to give it the best chance I can possibly give it.

Anyway, off to go work on my latest short story. . .


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## Incanus (Jul 28, 2014)

Apologies to anyone not interested--but I'm going to keep this thread alive until I've made my decision.

As of today, I'm right on the fence with this.  I can't make up my mind.

So, the next step:  a pros and cons list!

--trying a 'practice/warm-up/simpler' novel--

PROS:

-build up of skills

-experience seeing a long story all the way through the process

-A greater chance of completion/lesser chance of being overwhelmed


CONS:

-the existing plan may grow stale/may loose momentum working on the main idea while spending a year or three doing the practice novel

-will take longer overall

-the idea that the 'golden' idea is more loved/the practice novel is somehow a 'lesser' work


I'm certain I'm missing at least one or two things on either side--this is just the 'first draft'.  And then there's the fact that I'm really, really slow.  To me, that belongs on both sides, or neither.  Being slow means a practice novel will take a lot of time.  It could also mean that if I'm careful enough, I may avoid most of the pitfalls of taking on the larger work.

Does anyone have anything to add to either list?


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## Steerpike (Jul 28, 2014)

It seems like by default many authors previously wrote practice novels without every realizing they were doing so at the time. You hear a lot of traditionally-published authors talk about how many novels they wrote before one finally got accepted and published. Maybe because the first one that got accepted was the only one worth a damn. With self-publishing, all those crappy practice novels end up on Amazon


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## Mythopoet (Jul 28, 2014)

All novels are practice novels. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to make money from them if they're good.


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## Steerpike (Jul 28, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> All novels are practice novels. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to make money from them if they're good.



Quite true. The question is whether the author can or will take the time to make that determination, or just figure "hey, I finished a novel" and put it up for sale. I've seen plenty of instances of the latter, and some nice surprises that were quite good.


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## Philip Overby (Jul 28, 2014)

Steerpike said:


> It seems like by default many authors previously wrote practice novels without every realizing they were doing so at the time. You hear a lot of traditionally-published authors talk about how many novels they wrote before one finally got accepted and published. Maybe because the first one that got accepted was the only one worth a damn. With self-publishing, all those crappy practice novels end up on Amazon



That's kind of what I was thinking about when I started this thread. Are some writers just putting out a series or something overtly complicated right out of the gate because of the ease of self-publishing? Even though I haven't decided what I want to do with my first completed novel, I know I don't want it to be too confusing for readers because it's not ready for prime time so to speak. I find that sometimes what I think are really cool ideas may completely miss the boat. I do generally think that great series can come from a smaller idea first (The Hobbit--->Lord of the Rings).

I also think it's a perfectly good idea to try to get every novel out there in the world. Once you start writing it, it should ultimately be your goal for it to see the light of day. However, if it's not ready or it's a jumbled mess, then it's best to hold off on it and see how you can put your best foot forward. As a debut author, you really want to put out something that's representative of you and what you hope to put out in the future.


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## Svrtnsse (Jul 28, 2014)

I'll tackle the cons, as I'm all for the idea of starting out with a simpler smaller project (formerly referred to as practice novel).



Incanus said:


> -the existing plan may grow stale/may loose momentum working on the main idea while spending a year or three doing the practice novel


Yes. It could happen. Two things:
1. Ideas are cheap. You'll come up with new ones. My position is that it's not the idea that matters, but what you do with it.
2. If your original idea grows old and stale, was it really such a good idea in the first place? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. It's really hard to tell. Most writers will get to the point where they think that their idea and their novel and everything they've ever done is rubbish. It's just one of those things. It happens to everyone. 
If you lose the passion for the original idea, pick it apart and poker around at the details and put it together again.




Incanus said:


> -will take longer overall


Definitely. Depending on your outlook on life this may or may not be an issue.




Incanus said:


> -the idea that the 'golden' idea is more loved/the practice novel is somehow a 'lesser' work


I started my current novel with this idea. It gave me the courage to get started on it, as if it didn't turn out good I could just claim it was for practice. Having spent a bit over a year working on it now I no longer subscribe to this idea.
My practice novel is turning into an awesome piece of work and I'm pouring my heart and my passion into writing it. This happened without me noticing it. I can't say for sure when things changed, but one day I realized they had and it was something of a revelation.


There's another argument against the practice novel:
What if you never feel ready to take on your great idea and you never get around to write your magnum opus?
This is something of a concern to me and I can see it happening. That would be disappointing.
However, I'm still on my first novel and I'm not even done with it yet. Throughout writing it I've got ideas for at least three spin-offs that I'd be interested in writing and it may very well be that I never write the story that I originally got into writing to write.
I'll find some way of dealing with that later. For now, it isn't an issue, but in fifteen to twenty years it may be.


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## Incanus (Aug 7, 2014)

I'm pretty well decided now:  I'm going to go ahead with the 'simple/practice' novel.

I'm being somewhat tentative here as there has been very little work on it so far.  But I did a couple of exploratory brainstorming sessions during the preceding week and came up with a few things that I like.  I won't say it isn't daunting:  having to put myself back on square one after all the work I've done on the 'magnum opus' causes me to sigh prodigiously.

However, I'm looking at the long haul and I see a goodly number of benefits in proceeding this way.  I believe I possess the requisite patience.  If I am able to stick it out, I'll end up with a pretty nice long history for the imaginary world setting--I'll need to add about 3000-4000 years of history to what I already have.  And there will be a number of ideas that fit with the whole world, which means that here and there some work will inadvertantly get done on the 'magnum opus' WIP (in fact, I thought of just such a thing last night, and which also fits in with the short story I'm currently working on, which takes place in the same world as well).  I think also that if I can complete this novel, I'll have much more confidence in tackling the 'magnum opus'.

@Svrtnsse--thanks for the breakdown of the 'cons'.  For myself, I didn't give much credence to con #3 (If you don't love it, it probably won't turn out all that great), but I included it because it was a concern raised by several folks within this thread, and I was trying to compile a complete list so as to put _everything_ up on the scales, so to speak.  Also, the term 'stale' was probably not the best word I could have chosen for that particular concept.  I mostly just meant that if I put away these ideas for the time necessary to work on the 'practice' novel, I might not be able to recall them freshly, I may lose some of the connections they create in my mind no matter how well I've made notes on them (and most of my hasty notes are poorly written, just idea captures).

I would also like to thank everyone here at Mythic Scribes.  Having folks to talk through these issues is very valuble.  The average co-worker, cool as they might be, either lack interest or knowledge about these things.

Write away!


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## Jabrosky (Aug 7, 2014)

Svrtnsse said:


> If your original idea grows old and stale, was it really such a good idea in the first place? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. It's really hard to tell. Most writers will get to the point where they think that their idea and their novel and everything they've ever done is rubbish. It's just one of those things. It happens to everyone.
> If you lose the passion for the original idea, pick it apart and poker around at the details and put it together again.


I would recommend something like this too. If you lose enthusiasm for a project, you should analyze it and identify the spot where the monkey wrench hit your momentum. Maybe this would help you fix it and get your running again.


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## Starscream (Aug 8, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> All novels are practice novels. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to make money from them if they're good.



This is true.


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## Devor (Aug 8, 2014)

There's a problem with practice. It doesn't always work. You can write a hundred novels, and if you're not pushing yourself to improve, you won't get better.

I'll put one in for start simple. Face the whole process. Give yourself a chance to grow as a writer before diving into the deep end. There are things you only learn at the end of writing a story that would be really helpful to know at the beginning. Learn those things before trying out an epic.

But there are people who write practice _books_, plural, that should never see the light of day. And as Steerpike said, nowadays they end up on Amazon. There are also people who submit their first book two dozen times before it's accepted - and it's on their two dozenth draft.

The real question is how do you know that you're practicing in a way that gets you somewhere? Can you tell the difference between the practice novel and the finished product?

It's not easy. All I can say is, good luck everyone.


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## Incanus (Aug 8, 2014)

Devor said:


> I'll put one in for start simple. Face the whole process. Give yourself a chance to grow as a writer before diving into the deep end. There are things you only learn at the end of writing a story that would be really helpful to know at the beginning. Learn those things before trying out an epic.



And this is exactly my intention.  I've used the term 'practice novel' for lack of a better one.  The idea is to produce something relatively simple, yet commercially viable.  It will not be a 'throw-away', and I will definitely be pushing myself to grow and learn while working on it.  Also, I tend to like more 'artsy' writing, and in striving for such in my own work, I struggle greatly and never get complacent.  I may very well be deluding myself, but I think that I can tell the difference between what would be a practice piece and a finished piece with all the working parts.

I'm just not ready for my epic yet, but with some experience under my belt, I believe that I will be one day.


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## Incanus (Aug 27, 2015)

Apologies, apologies for resurrecting this old chestnut.  Not likely to do this often.

A little over a year ago, I was looking to join a fantasy writing forum and came across MS, and this thread.  When I finished reading it over, two things happened:   I immediately signed up on this site, and I shelved my ‘magnum opus’, realizing I didn’t yet have the chops to pull it off.

The ‘testimonies’ given here by Phil O., Penpilot, Caged Maiden, and Svrtnsse made me rethink what I was doing.  And the counter-points made by others were extremely helpful as well.  I can only imagine where I’d be now if I had tried to write my ‘big idea’ story first—pulling out the rest of my hair and banging my head against the desk in despair, I guess.

I spent the ensuing year working on shorts to practice up for the (so-called) practice novel.  As of today, I’m quite glad that I chose that course.  I’ve learned a ton since then.  I keep struggling with all things writing, but I’ve kept at it.  Ever so slowly, I’ve improved (I like to think so, anyway).

I figured this was a good time to revisit this topic, as I’m about to plunge into my first ‘real’ novel.  I can see so clearly now why all my previous attempts were never going to fly.  This time, I’ve got a pretty damn solid foundation laid down, and more experience under my belt.  I feel fairly confident that I’ll be able to see this one through.

So, that’s my story, for what it’s worth.

Thank you, Mythic Scribes members, for helping me find the right path forward!  It has meant a lot to me.


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## Ronald T. (Oct 1, 2015)

I think being a writer is similar to being a practicing doctor -- neither reaches perfection, therefore, they are always practicing.

Each bit of writing is a step in the direction of seeking perfection, whether it be a single scene idea, a short story, or a full novel.  But it is on-going.  It's like moving toward a beautiful horizon --when you reach it, there is always more to discover beyond.

If a writer ever makes the mistake of believing they have nothing else to learn, it's time for them to give up on writing and move on to something more challenging -- whatever that might be? 

But we, as writers, must never make the error of assuming the word "practice" is synonymous with "bad".  And always remember...no one ever gets more proficient without practice.  Ask any concert pianist or Olympic athlete.  It is the single best path to improvement. 

Then again...what do I know?  I'm just a hermit in the woods.

As always, my best to you all.


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