# Mythology within the world you've created



## srebak (Jan 4, 2014)

In one of the WIP books i'm writing, i've included elements from Greek, Egyptian and Norse Mythology, as well as a touch Christianity for reasons i've forgotten. 

It seemed like a good idea at the time, especially since i've seen such a concept work in other media (television). But after taking into consideration what authors like L. Frank Baum, J.R.R. Tolkien, Kenneth Oppel and Kathryn Lasky did with their books; actually give their worlds their own deities with unique names, what i'm doing; taking other mythologies and trying to build on them, seems kind of weak. And another factor that suddenly occurs to me is that some Christians might take offense to me referencing their religion in a story that frequently references Myth and legend.

Any suggestions on this?


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## Ireth (Jan 4, 2014)

As far as Tolkien is concerned, the mythology he creates for the universe containing Middle-earth is basically Christianity with a few tweaks. You've got the One God, Eru Iluvatar, and a legion of angels (Ainur, some of whom become the Valar and Maiar) along with a Satan figure (Melkor/Morgoth). The Valar were influenced by Tolkien's fascination with the polytheistic pagan mythologies, but he engineered it in a way that didn't conflict with his firm Christian beliefs. It's a little more difficult to pin down a single Christ analogue, since there are a handful of characters who fulfill different aspects. Gandalf is the sacrificial lion archetype; the Vala Manwe is the divinely-instigated King of Kings; Aragorn is the king of Men born of humble beginnings; Turin Turambar is the one fated to ultimately destroy Morgoth in the final battle, the Dagor Dagorath, after which the world will be remade.

CS Lewis is another example of someone who effectively blends Christianity with pagan myths. Narnia has a very clear Jesus figure, Aslan; on the other hand, it also has a Santa Claus (or Father Christmas), as well as satyrs, dryads, nymphs, as well as other figures directly referred to as gods. I believe Bacchus is specifically named in one book. And yet none of that counteracts or conflicts with the Christian themes of the series, or the characterization of Aslan as Jesus.

I personally am a fan of both Tolkien and Lewis (also Oppel and Lasky), and that blending of myths doesn't offend me at all. I roleplay various characters who firmly believe in Christianity even as they interact with vampires, werewolves and Fae. Heck, some of the vampires and werewolves are Christian themselves. On the other hand, I also have vampires and humans who are pagan, and have no desire to convert.

In short -- it can be done, and done well. Do what you want, and if people don't like it, that's their problem.


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## Queshire (Jan 4, 2014)

Don't forget that Tolkein was also inspired by Norse Mythology. Dwarves and Elves come from Norse Mythology, and even Gandalf was originally the name of an Elf King in Norse Mythology.


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## MVV (Jan 5, 2014)

No 'unique' mythology found in fantasy is completely random. Every single one is, more or less, influenced by one or more real world mythologies. But there's a big difference between taking the real mythologies as they are and simply combining them (even though there's quite a lot of authors who do so) and taking some elements, reconstructing them, using different names, ideas. I've got a couple of suggestions...

1. Work with archetypes. If there's a deity or another element you find interesting, try to think about why is it interesting for you. What makes you want to use it. Then, try to keep this important nucleus while changing the rest. Or not changing it that much. It's really a question of degree.
2. Try to read something about mythologies that aren't that well known. If you'll use an element of Greek or Norse mythology without hiding it enough, some people may say "Okay, here's another example of this and this..." In my WIP, the main religion is based on a real world Gnostic religion of Manichaeism (with some elements of Christianity). Now, I believe that those people who will actually recognize the influence of Manichaeism may find it a good idea rather than not. (Of course, I might be wrong!)
3. There are some strategies how to work with real life religions/mythologies in fantasy. Some of them are uncovered on my very favourite website. Take a look... there are many examples, both good and bad ones. 
Here come the links:
Crystal Dragon Jesus
Lowest Cosmic Denominator
Interfaith Smoothie
Fantasy Pantheon


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## TrustMeImRudy (Jan 5, 2014)

People love reading books with new mythologies. People also love reading books with old mythologies. I love both for instance.
As to making your own mythology...woo-weee. I could fill a book with the mythology I've already written - in fact I plan too lol. My advice for writing mythology is pretty easy.
Write ideas you think are awesome.
Explain the ideas. Give them meaning.
Give them a god to preside over them.
Find out what the terrain your people live in is. Terrain affects the way you live, which affects the way you look at things. Sailors consider storm gods fickle or downright evil. Farmers consider them good but easily angered.
And if you do decide to make your own mythology, or if you decide to use existing myths and want any help with that, feel free to PM me and I'll help if I can.

Basic tenet - if you read something you wrote and it seems boring, its wrong. Thats mythology.


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## CupofJoe (Jan 5, 2014)

There is a difference between referencing someone [historical and/or religious] in your story and using them as a reference for characters...
If you use historical/religious person A and have them do something outside the accepted cannon of their actions, then someone will most likely say "Hey - _A_ didn't do that...". 
If you use historical/religious person A as a starting point for your character, then the chances are that same someone will go "Hey - I can see _A_ in that character and they might have done that..."


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## Nagash (Jan 5, 2014)

MVV said:


> No 'unique' mythology found in fantasy is completely random. Every single one is, more or less, influenced by one or more real world mythologies. But there's a big difference between taking the real mythologies as they are and simply combining them (even though there's quite a lot of authors who do so) and taking some elements, reconstructing them, using different names, ideas. I've got a couple of suggestions...
> 
> 1. Work with archetypes. If there's a deity or another element you find interesting, try to think about why is it interesting for you. What makes you want to use it. Then, try to keep this important nucleus while changing the rest. Or not changing it that much. It's really a question of degree.
> 2. Try to read something about mythologies that aren't that well known. If you'll use an element of Greek or Norse mythology without hiding it enough, some people may say "Okay, here's another example of this and this..." In my WIP, the main religion is based on a real world Gnostic religion of Manichaeism (with some elements of Christianity). Now, I believe that those people who will actually recognize the influence of Manichaeism may find it a good idea rather than not. (Of course, I might be wrong!)
> ...



What MVV pointed out is very true - as far as creative writing is concerned, there is no such thing as purely uninfluenced invention of our imagination. We world-builders are constantly forging our universe with elements of our daily lives, cultures and general knowledge of the real world. Now, this doesn't mean you can't create something original, but no matter what you do, you won't craft out of nothing. You will always have something in mind while building your world, religions, etc...

As it was mentioned above, Tolkien's universe is is all about christianity; the pantheon, creationism and antagonism with Melkor/Morgoth is textbook biblical inspiration. Besides, the whole Lord of the Ring is a metaphor of good facing evil, and temptation being vanquished by innocence and willing hearts. Anyway, point is, even the greatest creations are founded on real worldly inventions. Now, Norse mythology was also used abundantly, but not so much in the religion concept than in shaping societies, cultures, and introducing a few creatures in middle-earth (basically all of them).

I deeply believe that advanced World-Building should include shaping one or many religions, depending of social/cultural scissions and the number of races, nations, etc... First of all, its great fun, and can be done with a lot of depth, and second of all, it gives you world a lot more density. I for one, forsook the possibility of introducing entire real-world religions within my WIP, and shaped many of my one. However, no matter how hard I try, they will always be more or less inspired by well known concepts. I must have created ten or so cults/religions, and while I gave them some original concepts/aspects, they can be connected to real-world religion. For examples, there is more-or-less a cult of the elements which could be associated with some sort of shamanism, a monotheism revering the virtues of the warrior, a norse inspired religion, an egyptian-inspired duo-theism, a monotheism built on an antagonist basis, etc... All of them have their respective mythology which I tried to shape originally, views on creationism, sacred books etc...

Doing all this work, I saw how this gave an exceptional density to my universe - it gave me opportunities to build centuries of history. Crusades, persecution, slaughters, religious wars, empires, factions etc... 

As a conclusion, I would state that there is no elaborate world without its proper religion; and forging unique, brand new religions, is the first step into advanced World-Building.


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## srebak (Jan 5, 2014)

Let me see if i can make my point clearer.

The story i'm writing has several different settings; three of them have creatures from Greek Mythology (with one sharing with a Middle-Eastern creature) and one has beings from Norse Mythology. In on of the Greek myth settings, i was going to have one of the creatures there be created by the Olympians themselves. While the Norse setting was going to have on of the Norse Gods make an appearance. Plus, one of the supporting characters, I was going to give a backstory that included a life in Egypt and a history with Egyptian mythology. 

As far as the religious stuff i referenced, it was more of the characters saying things like "Lord have mercy on us" or Hell and Satan being referenced in some way.

Does that help narrow things down


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## skip.knox (Jan 5, 2014)

You can reference Hell, since that occurs in multiple religions. I'd lowercase it, though.

Lord is tricky, as it also can mean one's feudal lord. But just substitute the god's name, if the god is inclined to mercy, even in fits and starts. After all, Howard has Conan invoke Crom. There are useful examples to be had from Roman comedy as well.

Satan, otoh, is so specifically Christian, it just wouldn't work in another context. 

I think you can have Christianity exist alongside other religions. It does, after all. You can go back to specific intermingling of Christianity with Norse gods by dropping into the 8th century through the 11thc. Or Christianity and Greco-Roman gods by visiting the eastern Mediterranean in the 3rd or 4thc, though there are precious few sources there. Point is, you're not talking about something utterly new.

Maybe you're worried about giving these pagan pantheons the same level of reality as the Christian god. You do have a theological problem there, but not a literary one. And if you take the pagan viewpoint, even the theological problem goes away.


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## WooHooMan (Jan 5, 2014)

I got two WIPs that feature constructed religions.  
The first WIP has what is basically nature-worship/animistic religion that doesn't draw inspiration from any particular source (except maybe Taoism).  There's also a "death-worship" religion which is based on the native religion of Madagascar.  Neither religion is portrayed as objectively true.

The second WIP has one god that is divided into three aspects: a creation spirit, a godhead of existence and a destruction demon.  I think that idea may have come from Hinduism with a dash of Zoroastrianism.  The actual practices of the religion isn't important to the story so I haven't thought about them.


Personally, my favorite made-up religion is the Tribunal Temple from Morrowind.  It's so bizarre but it also feels very grounded.  And I love how they included factions and organizations within the religion which all have it's own beliefs.  
I also like how they make it clear that Tribunal-worship evolved from a preexisting religion.  That's an idea that a lot of people seem to forget: no religion or mythology is ever created, it's developed from an earlier system of beliefs.

As far as I can tell, the Temple itself is based of second century Israel Jewish Temple (they have a messiah figure with the Nerevarine and a devil figure with Dagoth Ur) but I think there's some Hindu beliefs (they worship three gods and the incarnations of those gods) and some straight-up fantasy ideas.

Also, am I the only one who thinks it's strange that we refer to these things as "mythologies" rather than fictional religions or something?  Especially, when they're shown to be true (or at least, active) within the story's universe.


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## TrustMeImRudy (Jan 5, 2014)

Well I call all the stories in any religion mythology, including my own, because thats what they are. Straight from wikipedia: "They [myths] are used to convey religious or idealized experience, to establish behavioral models, and to teach." Which all religions do.


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## Pythagoras (Jan 5, 2014)

WooHooMan said:


> Also, am I the only one who thinks it's strange that we refer to these things as "mythologies" rather than fictional religions or something?  Especially, when they're shown to be true (or at least, active) within the story's universe.



Religion and mythology are two different things. Religion is a tradition of worship, while mythology is a collection of stories, which serve various purposes within a culture. More often than not, mythology does provide a backdrop for religion, and I think that is the reason the two are so often confused. For example, we know a fair amount about old Norse mythology, but not much at all about their actual religion(s). And for many, the mythological symbols of pagan times carried on into the period of religious conversion, as can be seen with etchings of Sigurd the (pagan) dragon slayer ornamenting the doorways to more than one medieval church in Scandinavia. (Sigurd is admittedly more a legendary figure than mythological, but his origins as the descendant of Odin is without a doubt rooted in myth (not to mention the fact that he is remembered most for his slaying of a DRAGON (which, incidentally has its parallel in Christian myth/legend in St. Micheal, who is not worshiped at all as an integral component in the religious doctrines, again illustrating the difference between the two))) 

Sorry about all the parentheses. Digressions run rampant in my thought process, but it eventually makes its way full circle.


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## skip.knox (Jan 6, 2014)

I see religion as something formal, with an organization attached and formal rituals. These don't have to be anything very sophisticated but they have to be formal, anything from making an offering, to sacrifices, to ceremonial worship. These do not form the totality of religion, but they characterize it and make it something distinct from mythology, which has no element of practice or formality to it. Myths are stories. 

Here is a useful definition, found at etymology.com but original source is cited.

Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale. Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud, "Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]


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