# Why don't people realize how hard it can be to write?



## Un'gravah (Feb 6, 2013)

Seriously? Why is it that so many people can pass off writing like its no big deal or that pumping out a novel can be done in a day. From my own personal experience I've had to put up with people that constantly joke or laugh that I write and yet they do absolutely nothing creative or productive. Is this a mechanism for them because they feel threatened or just that they are pricks? Anyone else experience this or something similar?


----------



## FatCat (Feb 6, 2013)

Can't say I've ever experienced this for myself, well not the presumption that writing is easy. I think that sometimes people judge (rightly or wrongly) that an aspiring author is just someone with their head in the clouds, and maybe don't take your claims too seriously. That I have experienced. I think the same thing applies with a lot of creative arts; I bet poets have it worse...well, mimes?


----------



## Nihal (Feb 6, 2013)

For the same reasons people think drawing is easy. "It's just a talent thing, you were born with this so it's nothing for you. So, go make me a free drawing!". Also "It's no real job, you just sit there and draw like a child doing something you like! Don't be a fool, where would you find work!? You don't know what is hard work!".

Just... no.

It's a skill, not a talent. It comes for a price. You take years or tons of money to master it (in art's case), you spend years investing your time while people are partying, you must change the way you perceive the world to get better at it. You get pains for the time you spend drawing and I guess the same may happen to some writers. Your true talent is the perseverance, is being able to train until you finally improve while other people just give up.


----------



## MadMadys (Feb 6, 2013)

I don't think I've ever encountered this personally.  If anything, quite the opposite.  If I ever mention that I enjoy writing or that I've done a first draft of an entire novel I get general appreciation for the ability to do such a thing.  Most people lack the imagination, dedication or capabilities to do it and most that I've ever met (and this goes for friends, which I could see appreciating it, and co-workers, who admiration for such things was unexpected) seem rather thrilled to know I can do it.

Even thinking back to college, my ability to write was looked at with envy as I would edit other people's papers and give suggestions.  A lot of people really do struggle writing 5 pages.  I do to but it's because I WANT TO WRITE A LOT MORE.

It's a shame that you've found such hostility but if it comes as any comfort, I can say it is no where near universal.


----------



## Chilari (Feb 6, 2013)

Oh god tell me about it. I used to hang out a lot in The Webcomic List forum and there's be several threads a week about a writer looking for an artist. Most of the time the "writer" in question had an idea - or several ideas - but no script. They saw themselves as writers even though they'd not written anything. Some even assumed the artist would "contribute" to the dialogue (ie, write it) while the "writer" would be more a sort of plotter. As an actual writer, and one who had attempted on several occasions to create webcomics, I understood how difficult it was to actually write the scripts. Ideas are easy. Translating those into a script is very difficult indeed - harder, for me, that translating into a novel. You've got to think visually, consider pacing with every line, consider panelling and overall page layout etc. It's not just one panel then another panel, either. Some panels are bigger than others, and you've got to mentally organise them into pages so the right panels are emphasised - you want the last panel to be almost a punchline, even in longform comics, not a boring panel. If you've got a whole page spread you've got to organise panels prior to that to fill an exact number of pages. It's a nightmare. And these kids (they usually were) would just saunter up with an idea and demand that an artist recognise their genius and work with them.

I don't recall seeing a single comic that started as a "writer looking for artist" thread (and I was a moderator there, I checked every single one and even created a stickied advice/etiquette thread that was mostly ignored anyway)

As far as general people I know or meet are concerned, I don't see the same attitude. Mostly people are like "oh cool" then move on when they learn I'm writing a novel. They don't really say anything about it.

But in general I don't think creative endeavours are given the respect they deserve. I heard a story about Picasso. Someone recognised him in a restaurant one evening and said they'd pay him if he would draw something on a napkin. He did, handed the napkin to the fan and said "That's one million dollars, please." The fan replied, "One million dollars? But it only took you half a minute!" and Picasso said, "Yes, but it took me 50 years to learn how to draw that in half a minute."

I still follow a lot of webcomickers, and I think it was one of those who tweeted a link to something containing the above Picasso story. It seems a lot of the time webcomickers get asked to draw something for free, or for a comically low fee, because it's "what they love" anyway, it's not percieved as work.

But it is. We creative people work at what we enjoy to try to improve. They say it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert at something (or about five years, working full time). But it doesn't seem like most people realise that being a good artist or writer is part of that too.

I read an article recently where a Hollywood screen writer talks about why he doesn't read other people's scripts. Apparently a lot of people just ask him to read their scripts, and his policy is to say no, he's too busy, he's got other obligations - reading scripts studios are paying him to read, for a start. So he says no. But one time he felt unable to say no, and read the script and it was awful. But the script's author - plus his girlfriend, who the screen writer was friends with, and other mutual friends - asked for him to be honest. So he was. after several different versions of emails, he eventually settled on an honest but positively toned email explaining some of the major issues with the script and suggesting the next steps to the author. And all their mutual friends heard about it or read it, and they all thought he was being mean. He wasn't trying to be mean, he was just trying to be honest, but he got lambasted because of that. So he doesn't read scripts.

The way this is relevant to the current discussion is that people think they can write when they can't, and then get upset when someone who would know tells them they can't. Not to say that they can't get good if they work at it, but any teenager can put some words on a page and call it a story. But not everyone can write well.


----------



## Devor (Feb 6, 2013)

"Zombie zoo, zombie zoo, who let the zombies out of the zombie zoo . . . ."

I don't know why, but everyone seems to think they can write just as well, that there's a lot of terribly written stuff getting published, that it's easy money, and that you're delusional for thinking you can be "lucky" enough to make it.

Can we say talent and hard work, story construction, quality product, networking . . . . ?  There's some luck involved with anything, sure, but hard work and the sense to know what you need to do can get you just about anywhere.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 6, 2013)

In my experience, people lie all over the spectrum on how they feel about writing (or any other creative art form). 

Some have great reverence and respect for authors, understanding that there is a craft that needed to be learned & a comprehension about what a daunting task writing a novel can be, the commitment involved. They are well aware how many people try, and fail, constantly....every year...throughout history.

Some people, without any real, intimate knowledge of craft, believe that writing is merely putting words on paper. They write emails, chat on Facebook, occasionally pen an actual letter. Therefore, they may feel they could write a novel or story...if they wanted to. Often, even aspiring writers fall into this category, those that dream of being a literary success without the understanding that, in the end, a lot of hard work is required. They offer excuses. I'm going to start writing when "x" is done, or some similar reason for postponing the actual labor of art.

Still, others are just indifferent. They don't care about the art form, or any type of creative art for that matter. They don't read. They don't appreciate visual arts beyond movies, they simply don't care. I'm not chastising this outlook. It's just not their cup of tea. Don't ever expect people like this to appreciate the work behind the scenes. They never will because it is unimportant to their lives.

"A writer is somebody for whom writing is more difficult than it is for other people." ~Thomas Mann

I love that quote. It illustrates that, once you take an art form seriously, delving into the craft to become a true, working practitioner, only then can you realize the difficulties of doing it well. So don't be too hard on the uninitiated. They just don't understand.

For those fans, that one day, may consider your writing or art the work of genius:

"It's none of their business that you have to learn how to write. Let them think you were born that way." ~ Ernest Hemingway


----------



## Penpilot (Feb 6, 2013)

I've run into this a bit. Some people think, "Hey I can write a proper sentence. Hey I've got ideas. Ergo, I should be able to write a story just like we see in the book store. How hard can it be?" 

Seriously, that's what they think. I think it's common among those ignorant of anything that looks, from the outside looking in, simple to do. How hard is it to take this football and run it down the field? Easy. How hard is it to toss this ball into a hoop? Bah. Child's play. I can boil water and chop stuff. Why can't I be a world renowned chef? I can add and multiply and write numbers into columns. Why can't I be an accountant?

Some people only see the external part of things. They don't realize the mental skill involved in things like writing, or anything for that matter.

And part of this is us writers doing it to ourselves. Have you seen how writing is portrayed in movies and TV? I remember watching this Stephen King movie, The Dark Half, where the writer character gets praised by his wife for writing ten... TEN pages to a novel. That's like 2500 words. That's like one chapter. She acts like just because he wrote those ten good pages that what was to come would be sooo easy and would be a guaranteed best seller. Give me a break. 

Honestly, I think a lot of people think all writers do is get drunk, crap out some words, and lets an editor sort them out into a story.


----------



## PlotHolio (Feb 6, 2013)

I understand this perfectly. However, having to wait 5 years for a mediocre book (A Dance with Dragons) or having a book I really want to read delayed for years because the author is depressed (Republic of Thieves) is still not fun for me.

Not that I'd go up to Scott Lynch and slap him into action. I'd tell him that I love his books and bury my other feelings deep inside.


----------



## Ghost (Feb 6, 2013)

I bet it's less fun for those authors.


----------



## Steerpike (Feb 6, 2013)

Neil Gaiman had commentary directed to some of these issues, where he points out George R. R. Martin is not your bitch.

Neil Gaiman's Journal: Entitlement issues...


----------



## PlotHolio (Feb 6, 2013)

I'm not saying that Scott Lynch is sitting at his computer giggling while he watches thousands of people waiting quite impatiently for his novel. Even though that's a fun image, I know depression isn't fun. I'm not one of the people who asks him when Republic of Thieves is coming out every time he posts something on is blog.

While I appreciate that artists and authors are people too, I must say that Neil is wrong this time. As an author, I believe I have a responsibility to finish what I start. I don't know about you guys, but the reason why I write is because my head is teeming with thousands of people, places, and things that are, frankly, quite awesome. I want to share them with the world, and I want to do it well.

If one of my ideas seems less awesome after a while, I deal with it and write anyway, because now my friends think my creations are awesome, and if I didn't give them the maximum amount of awesome, I would be unhappy. Not them, me.

I guess my point is that I hold my favorite authors to the same standards I hold myself.

Hopefully this post makes sense and isn't the written equivalent of a gallon of half-dried silly putty thrown into a turbine.


----------



## Steerpike (Feb 6, 2013)

You're not really holding authors to the same standards, though. For yourself, you are allowing yourself to decide. YOU feel a responsibility to finish what you start. YOU would feel bad if you didn't provide your work to others. To hold another author to the same standard, I think you have to give them the same freedom to determine for themselves whether they feel the same way or not.

I think Gaiman is right. On what basis would George Martin have a responsibility to live his life for others instead of himself? Because you or I bought one of his $9.99 paperbacks? I think Gaiman is right again when he says that what we bought was that specific book. If fans had Martin on retainer and were paying him ongoing fees to complete the next book, then I think he has a responsibility. As it stands, I can't think of where on earth an obligation from him to you or I would stem from.


----------



## Alexandra (Feb 6, 2013)

Un'gravah said:


> Why is it that so many people can pass off writing like its no big deal or that pumping out a novel can be done in a day....



Simple, because they've never had/wanted to do it themselves. Also, we make writing look effortless because we don't write in front of an audience, at least most of us don't, and our finished product doesn't look physically impressive.


----------



## PlotHolio (Feb 6, 2013)

Sorry, Steerpike, but you're confusing me a bit. Are you saying that I'm being unfair because all authors don't share my sense of responsibility?


----------



## Devor (Feb 6, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Neil Gaiman had commentary directed to some of these issues, where he points out George R. R. Martin is not your bitch.
> 
> Neil Gaiman's Journal: Entitlement issues...



Right, of course, right.  I'm pretty sure George R. R. Martin is Bantam Books' Bitch, not mine.


----------



## PlotHolio (Feb 6, 2013)

Devor said:


> Right, of course, right.  I'm pretty sure George R. R. Martin is Bantam Books' Bitch, not mine.



Clever, and most likely 100% true.


----------



## Steerpike (Feb 6, 2013)

PlotHolio said:


> Sorry, Steerpike, but you're confusing me a bit. Are you saying that I'm being unfair because all authors don't share my sense of responsibility?



Just that the fact that you've freely chosen what level of responsibility to take one with respect to a book series doesn't mean every author has to, or should, feel the same. GRRM hasn't done anything to obligate himself to me or to you, in my view.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 6, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> On what basis would George Martin have a responsibility to live his life for others instead of himself? Because you or I bought one of his $9.99 paperbacks? I think Gaiman is right again when he says that what we bought was that specific book. If fans had Martin on retainer and were paying him ongoing fees to complete the next book, then I think he has a responsibility. As it stands, I can't think of where on earth an obligation from him to you or I would stem from.



Although I understand where you're coming from, I'm not certain I can agree. If I buy 5 books of a 7 book series, you're damn right I expect to eventually get all 7. If, for some reason, GRRM just decided one day that he'd grown tired of writing about Starks & Lannisters and the fans be damned, there'd be a huge backlash.

Now, obviously in this case, he has contractual agreements with the publisher that he needs to honor. I'm not talking about that however. I believe there is an understanding, not quite a contract, but an implied promise. If I start reading this epic series, and like it, it's your responsibility to complete the story for me. Every artist should hold themselves accountable to their fans in that regard. It's not quite as simple as, "Here's your $9.99, I expect nothing more from you beyond this portion of the tale that I just purchased."

I'm not asking an author to live their life according to my wants & demands for $10 or $50 invested. What I'm asking for is for the author to make good on their promise.


----------



## Steerpike (Feb 6, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> If I start reading this epic series, and like it, it's your responsibility to complete the story for me. Every artist should hold themselves accountable to their fans in that regard. It's not quite as simple as, "Here's your $9.99, I expect nothing more from you beyond this portion of the tale that I just purchased."



I don't feel the same way. I don't think I have a responsibility to you, although I agree that an artist should consider the fans. Think of the number of TV series that have been canceled without a final episode or two to tie up or resolve the ongoing plot. Do they owe us a final episode to tie-up all of the story lines before they cancel? I don't think so. If I devote an hour of my time for an hour of entertainment, that's the end of it, in my view. If they make another episode, I can decide whether or not to watch it with the same considerations in mind. How about a movie that leaves a story line open and is clearly in anticipation of a sequel, only the movie studio never makes the sequel? Have they also breached their obligation? 

I don't know. Maybe one reason I tend not to buy books that are part of a series until the series is done is because I want to see that the author finishes it. I'm in the middle of some long series however. I've read ten books in a projected twelve-book series, and while I suppose I'd be disappointed if the series wasn't finished, I guess I don't see the authors as obligated to me. An obligation implies to me something that can or should be able to be enforced. If the authors decide to stop writing and spend the rest of their lives working with animal shelters, should I have some recourse? Should I be able to say 'no, as one of your readers I now have a stake in your life and what you do with it?'

I'm not seeing the responsibility. I offer a book for $9.99. You choose to buy it knowing that none of the rest have been written. It's a free and informed exchange. If you told me the price of the book not only included the actual book, but also your right to hold me obligated to you for X number of years while I finish the series, I'd probably charge a hell of a lot more for it


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 6, 2013)

I'm not suggesting any type of enforceable obligation has been made. I'm not implying any legal binding, and yes legally speaking the author owes you nothing beyond that single transaction...book for money. 

TV & movies don't equate in my view. The investment by the viewer is not the same as the investment of a reader. That reader takes the words you've written, internalized them and offers a bit from their own experience to complete the story in their mind's eye. Sitting down to watch a TV program takes much less input from the viewer (if any at all).

As an author, if I'm expecting people to join me on an epic journey of my creation, to invest enough of themselves to care about the events & characters, then I owe them a conclusion. This is especially true if I've gained a strong following. Those fans are part of an author's success. Success came from the author's hard work, coupled with the reader's investment in the story. It has little to do with monetary exchanges and contracts. 

If we're talking about an epic series or even a trilogy, there's certainly some obligation towards that completion if the author has any respect for the people that helped them achieve their success. Authors of successful serial works know full well that a growing fan base will expect continuation to conclusion. The fact that they've started writing an epic in the first place tells us there's an initial desire to complete that story. That initial desire is the source of the author-reader promise. With the writing of a 1st book of a series, that author is promising those that buy it and invest themselves in the work, that there will be more to follow.


----------



## Devor (Feb 6, 2013)

Why would the author have an obligation to write another book if the fans don't have an obligation to read it?


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 6, 2013)

Because in selling book one of a series, planned, written, & marketed as a series...the author is saying "Buy this, there's more to follow." - That's the promise inherent with writing & selling an epic.

Readers buy based off that expectation. Writers write, hoping for readers. That's a big difference.

If authors aren't willing to fulfill that expectation, they should stick to Stand-alone books.

OP: sorry, we've gotten off topic.


----------



## Penpilot (Feb 6, 2013)

I'm sure GRRM could pump out the next book in a month, but it'd most definitely be crap. Different authors work at different paces. I'd rather wait five years for a great book than one year for a piece of trash. If you think about it, GRRM can't win in this situation. If he writes a bad book quickly, the fans will give him crap. It he makes them wait, he gets crap. So I'm guessing is he'd rather write something good and get crap for making people wait than deliver quickly and get crap for writing a shite book.

This relates to the OP in that, like people who don't understand the problems of being a writer, people don't understand what it takes to write an epic on the scale and quality of GOT and what problems arise during it's writing. It's not just a matter of getting words down. It's about thinking out problems, whether they be character, plot, or world building. And sometimes solving those problems does not involve sitting in front of a keyboard demanding your brain produce literary gold. Sometimes the best way to solve a problem is to walk away and go gardening or what ever. Like Gaiman said, living your life gives you material to use in your writing.

I wager that GRRM probably has a very rough "draft" of the next book sketched out in some form or another, but getting from rough draft to finished product can be a long and arduous task.


----------



## SunnyE (Feb 8, 2013)

Seems to me that a lot of people have an inflated view of their own abilities. In everything. Can't tell you how often I've heard some idiot say, "Hey! I could _totally _do that!" Whether speaking of writing, art, acting, athletics, dancing, politics, medicine, you name it, there are a ton of people out there that are convinced they could do it. And probably better, faster and easier while they're at it. And they are able to hold that view and continue to spout that view to everyone in earshot because they will never, ever attempt to do what it is they are claiming is so easy, thereby never being really challenged on their claims. Armchair quarterbacking seems to be universal. Experts (or at least people devoted to their job/art/passion) tend to make what they do look easy. So outsiders look at it and think, "Hey, I bet that's easy. And because it's easy, I could do it." People who haven't sat down to try and write a book are clueless as to what goes into it. To be honest, I've always been a great writer and when I decided to write a novel for publication, I really did think it would be easy-peasy. Got myself educated on that mighty quick. It's one of the most difficult things I've ever done. But I also understand how someone who has never attempted to write a book, a good one, could not see how hard it really is. When I hear someone who can barely string together coherent sentences in their native language tell me they are writing a book, I just nod my head and tell them how nice that is for them. And smile.


----------



## PlotHolio (Feb 8, 2013)

I'm not saying by any means that Martin has to hurry up. He can do it at his own pace. My issue with A Dance With Dragons was that even after waiting for years, it was a mediocre book. I think what happened was that he wanted to focus on his shiny new TV show and his short stories for a while, and then when he sat down to write Dance, he realized he had almost no motivation.

For every ten fans that hate him for taking years to write a novel, where will be one who understands and just wants a good book. But George's new popularity convinced him to appease the former rather than the latter. That's part of why Dance is mediocre. The other part is that it's technically A Feast for Crows: Part 2. It's the second half of one book followed by the first half of another.

As for Scott Lynch, I want to read Republic of Thieves. I also want to read Zero Sight 3, Blood of the Falcon 3, The Tower Lord, and The Painted Man 3. I want to read a lot of books. When I see that any of these books are delayed for some reason or another, I just go read something else. With the advent of the Kindle Store, there's always a book (sometimes written by someone who can barely string together coherent sentences in their native language) on sale for $2.99. It's not a masterpiece, but it can be fun to read.

And sometimes, it is a masterpiece (Blood Song).

And Steerpike...

You say people should have the right to choose if my standard applies to them. That makes no sense. People don't get to choose if standards apply to them. Either they meet them or they don't. Also, T.Allen.Smith is right. It's not the purchase of a $9.99 paperback that binds Martin to his fans. It's that he chose to publish them in the first place. We've all invested ourselves in the eventual completion of the story.

Imagine a world where authors were not in any way expected to finish a story once they start it...

NORSE FARMER: So what happens after Grendel attacks the mead hall?
ANONYMOUS SKALD: I have no idea. I got bored and decided to write something else.

BOOKSHOP OWNER: This book covers a normal day in the life of Leopold Bloom, up until sometime around 2 PM, where it ends midsentence.

PAT SUMMERALL: To the twenty... To the twenty-five... To the vending machines to get myself a Pepsi...


----------



## Steerpike (Feb 8, 2013)

PlotHolio said:


> You say people should have the right to choose if my standard applies to them. That makes no sense. People don't get to choose if standards apply to them. Either they meet them or they don't.



This doesn't make sense, because this is exactly what you're doing - deciding on a standard, and that it applies to you, and that it should decide to others. Neil Gaiman could just as easily say that _his_ standard applies to you. Who's right? No matter how you end up, you have one group of people choosing a standard and deciding it applies to everyone else.


----------



## PlotHolio (Feb 8, 2013)

I don't know Neil Gaiman's standard. If it's about writers, then it does apply to me. Whether I meet it or not is a different story. Even if I don't, all that means is that he has the right to call me a horrible writer if he wants to. Then again, he has that right anyway.


----------



## Steerpike (Feb 8, 2013)

PlotHolio said:


> I don't know Neil Gaiman's standard. If it's about writers, then it does. Whether I meet it or not is a different story. Even if I don't, all that means is that he has the right to call me a horrible writer if he wants to. Then again, he has that right anyway.



Well, the link to the Neil Gaiman piece about George Martin gives the opinion of Gaiman that George Martin has no obligation to write additional books beyond the one he's already written and you've purchased. That's a standard that is different from the one you state in this thread. And so, in adopting either one of these you are making a choice and then applying the standard in your judgment of others. You're free to apply the standard you like, as is anyone else. It's not an absolute, where one is right and the other is wrong.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 8, 2013)

I've only ever read Gaiman's Neverwhere.

Has he written any epic fantasies?... Anything comprised of a trilogy or more?


----------



## PlotHolio (Feb 8, 2013)

Gaiman is talking about rabid fans demanding that Martin release his books quickly. That's not what I'm doing at all. As long as Martin eventually finishes Song of Ice and Fire, that's fine with me.


----------



## Steerpike (Feb 8, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I've only ever read Gaiman's Neverwhere.
> 
> Has he written any epic fantasies?... Anything comprised of a trilogy or more?



His Sandman series (graphic novel) was something like 75 issues long. Apart from that, I don't think he does much in the way of series. I think Anasasi Boys might be tied to American Gods (as in, same fictional universe), but I'm not certain.


----------



## Steerpike (Feb 8, 2013)

PlotHolio said:


> Gaiman is talking about rabid fans demanding that Martin release his books quickly. That's not what I'm doing at all. As long as Martin eventually finishes Song of Ice and Fire, that's fine with me.



Yes, but you're purposefully avoiding the point about standards. I suppose that takes us further off topic than we need to go, however.


----------



## PlotHolio (Feb 8, 2013)

I'm not avoiding your point about standards, I'm disagreeing with it.


----------



## Amanita (Feb 9, 2013)

There are simply some people who believe that only hard manual labor is real work, only working as a scientist or engineer is worth anything or many more other things. Very often, the "real" jobs happen to be those the person in question or her family members are doing.  
I don't think getting worked up over something like that is very helpful. I tend to either avoid the people or the subject matter. 
The idea that people believe they could do something much better than others, especially popular things like music, sports or writing novels is quite common too. In Germany when there's a soccer worldcup you often find some people complain that there are suddenly "80 million national coaches". 
From my personal experience so far I have to admit that writing and this goes for both novels and scientific papers is a much more pleasant passtimes than many things other people are forced to do for their money. Therefore I can sort of sympathize with people standing in noisy factories for hours for example not taking the troubles of writers very seriously. 

As far as the issue around George RR Martin is concerned, I have to admit that I'm quite surprised by some of the statements I've read here.
Usually, I'm reading the advice that being a professional writer is not about waiting for inspiration but about doing the work of writing and getting books out relatively quickly. In Martin's case, people seem to disagree suddenly and believe that he really can't write a proper book reasonably quickly for such reasons. 
An author has no legal obligation to finish a series of course but I do think that someone calling themselves a professional should be able to finish what he has started, as long as there's no severe trouble getting into the way.
Personally, I'd be very proud if readers cared about my story and characters enough to be so keen on a new book. I very often tend to forget about serial works if there's no new book after a reasonably short period of time. The only exception has been Harry Potter but in that case, the entire waiting and speculation has been way more fun than the acutal reading. Therefore no one was trying to push Rowling in an unfriendly way either, at least not as far as I know.


----------



## Penpilot (Feb 10, 2013)

Amanita said:


> Usually, I'm reading the advice that being a professional writer is not about waiting for inspiration but about doing the work of writing and getting books out relatively quickly. In Martin's case, people seem to disagree suddenly and believe that he really can't write a proper book reasonably quickly for such reasons.



I won't speak for anyone else, but when I give the piece of advice to just finish a book, I'm usually referring to the first draft. The first draft is a long way from a publishable manuscript. Now other times, it's in reference to not get caught up in over editing or the eternal edit. It's about knowing when you've made your book as good as it can be relative to your skills and then moving on. There's no discrete time period for this. it's actually different for everyone. Some people can churn out 3 books a year, others only one, or less.

There's a difference between someone who's on their 56th draft and only the minutia of the text has changed since draft 4 and someone who's on their 10th rewrite because significant plot holes needed to be plugged at the request of their publisher. 

Like all writing advice it's imperfect and there are no absolutes. There will always be exceptions because it depends on the variables of the situation.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 10, 2013)

I don't think GRRM's work ethic is in question here. He tends to take his time and he doesnt put works out quickly. That has little to do with him not doing the work of writing...that's not the reason his books have years between releases. 

He is, after all, writing a seven book epic. From my understanding, he doesn't care how long it takes between books. He wants to be remembered by how good the stories are, not by how many he pumped out in a certain period.

When writers talk about "doing the work" they arent referring to putting out books or stories as quickly as possible. They may talk about the second, or third books being the best sales aids of the first, but they arent suggesting that speed at the expense of quality is any measure of success.


----------



## Amanita (Feb 10, 2013)

> He tends to take his time and he doesnt put works out quickly.


I've been refering to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to stop writing an epic series in the middle due to lack of inspiration or more interest in other projects which has been suggested by some posters above. 
Anyway, I don't agree with that notion to put out books as quickly as possible myself but I've noticed that it has been advised in a way in some places here.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 10, 2013)

Amanita said:


> I've been refering to the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to stop writing an epic series in the middle due to lack of inspiration or more interest in other projects which has been suggested by some posters above.
> Anyway, I don't agree with that notion to put out books as quickly as possible myself but I've noticed that it has been advised in a way in some places here.



I don't believe he's stopped work due to lack of inspiration. From my understanding, it is a continual work...something that he progresses on daily. Interest in other projects or characters aside, he still works on its completion.

Personally, as a big fan of the series, I don't care how long it takes between books (as long as it reaches completion). The stories and characters have so many compelling features, that if he needs six years for production then so be it. 

People won't remember authors for how quickly they produced, but by the quality of the story and characters within.


----------



## Amanita (Feb 10, 2013)

I'd like to apologize if my posts sounded as if I was attacking Mr. Martin in any way. This wasn't my intention, I don't really know anything about him and the discussions about his books. I was merely surprised by some of the reactions to propositions made by others here on this forum and in the linked article.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 10, 2013)

Amanita said:


> I'd like to apologize if my posts sounded as if I was attacking Mr. Martin in any way. This wasn't my intention, I don't really know anything about him and the discussions about his books. I was merely surprised by some of the reactions to propositions made by others here on this forum and in the linked article.



There's no need for apology. Nothing you said was offensive in any way. You're entitled to have contrary opinions. That's how we learn from one another.


----------



## PlotHolio (Feb 11, 2013)

If HBO adapted any of my books into a high-budget series that was all but guaranteed to run for at least three seasons, I'd stop writing, too.

Then again, I don't actually have any books. All I have is an unorganized folder of Word documents and a half-baked story about zombie children and evil trees.


----------



## Devor (Feb 11, 2013)

PlotHolio said:


> If HBO adapted any of my books into a high-budget series that was all but guaranteed to run for at least three seasons, I'd stop writing, too.



He didn't stop writing.  Feast for Crows had to be rewritten because he was originally skipping five years, and it came out so long he cut the book in half, which meant more rewrites, and then the second half got so long he cut off the two fight scenes at the end.  He's actually complained when his publishers sent him on book tours because it meant there would be a few months that he couldn't write.  And he's expressed his fears that the books won't even be published when the HBO series catches up, which means he knows that he needs to focus even more on writing.

You really shouldn't judge people, even celebrities, if you know nothing about what they're doing.


----------



## Zero Angel (Feb 11, 2013)

Un'gravah said:


> Seriously? Why is it that so many people can pass off writing like its no big deal or that pumping out a novel can be done in a day. From my own personal experience I've had to put up with people that constantly joke or laugh that I write and yet they do absolutely nothing creative or productive. Is this a mechanism for them because they feel threatened or just that they are pricks? Anyone else experience this or something similar?



HECK YES! My fiancee would just say, "They're jealous," but I think there is a serious disrespect or ignorance when it comes to what it takes to be creative. I think part of that is most people only see the finished awesome product we produce, and are unaware of the thousands of hours we put into making it the best possible work. I mean, it's EASY to consume art, isn't it?



T.Allen.Smith said:


> In my experience, people lie all over the spectrum on how they feel about writing (or any other creative art form).
> 
> Some have great reverence and respect for authors, understanding that there is a craft that needed to be learned & a comprehension about what a daunting task writing a novel can be, the commitment involved. They are well aware how many people try, and fail, constantly....every year...throughout history.
> 
> ...


Nice quotes!

And how about the people who, upon finding out that you finished your first novel (or are a writer with published books), immediately want you to ghostwrite THEIR idea. Right, 'cuz I have all the time in the world and a shortage of ideas.


Devor said:


> He didn't stop writing.  Feast for Crows had to be rewritten because he was originally skipping five years, and it came out so long he cut the book in half, which meant more rewrites, and then the second half got so long he cut off the two fight scenes at the end.  He's actually complained when his publishers sent him on book tours because it meant there would be a few months that he couldn't write.  And he's expressed his fears that the books won't even be published when the HBO series catches up, which means he knows that he needs to focus even more on writing.
> 
> You really shouldn't judge people, even celebrities, if you know nothing about what they're doing.



I judge, I judge. But seriously. I can't believe they bought the idea to the series knowing it was incomplete and how miserable he is when it comes to deadlines. Are they going to do like they end up doing with a lot of manga and write their own endings? Will he tell them what happens ahead of the books so the series will pull ahead? Will they end in the middle, stymieing any fans that cared about the show but not the books? 

I'm only in the middle of writing my second book in my series, so I'm not going to say that it would be easy for him to figure out what he should do and write that. I remember reading that for every page he wrote in the book, there was ten more pages writing in-between scenes or describing things or whatever, but I don't care. Just give me the next book.

Except, I gave up on him after whichever book it was where he skipped half the characters. I'm not going to say that it's easy, because I know how hard it is, but come on. He wasted about three days of my life. I probably will never finish the series, and it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. 

It's upsetting, but as a writer I can understand screwing up. It's just, I don't know, it's so slow-going! I can't imagine the hell his publisher goes through trying to get the next book. "Oh, you're writing another two episodes of the show that we see no royalties from instead of writing another two chapters of the next book, FANTASTIC."


----------



## Devor (Feb 11, 2013)

Zero Angel said:


> I can't believe they bought the idea to the series knowing it was incomplete and how miserable he is when it comes to deadlines. Are they going to do like they end up doing with a lot of manga and write their own endings? Will he tell them what happens ahead of the books so the series will pull ahead? Will they end in the middle, stymieing any fans that cared about the show but not the books?



If that happens, I imagine that Martin would give them a few spoilers, but that the show would mostly diverge from the book.


----------



## PlotHolio (Feb 12, 2013)

Actually, he did stop writing. He took a year-long break to focus on the TV show and some stuff with Dunk and Egg.


----------



## Devor (Feb 12, 2013)

PlotHolio said:


> Actually, he did stop writing. He took a year-long break to focus on the TV show and some stuff with Dunk and Egg.



Okay, sorry a bit then, I must have missed that.  One year isn't so bad, though.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 12, 2013)

He didn't stop writing. He stopped writing ASOFAI.


----------



## Arhenvir (Feb 13, 2013)

I hear a lot of these comments from people who haven't opened a book since they were forced to in high school.  To them, fiction writing seems to mean 'making stuff up all day' until such time as I've filled an entire book cover-to-cover.  They don't think about (or understand) what good writing is versus walls of text.

Folks that love reading, though, are more sympathetic if I say I have a hard time finishing out the latest chapter in my own novel.  They marvel at their favorite authors' ability to keep them entertained, and understand that often it's not quite so much the basic premise of the novel, but _how_ the story is being told.


----------

