# Telling Time



## Androxine Vortex (Jan 9, 2012)

I am having trouble developing a way for my characters in my fantasy world to tell time. "Why not just use a sun dial? Or use the 24 hour system with day and night?" Well in my story, there are a few things to consider.

-In my story the world IS flat so there is no orbital revolutions.

-It is always day and never night

-The sun stays directly above the (flat) Earth and never moves.

See my problem now? I was thinking of having the sky turn different colors and shades to represent time changing but would like to know what you think. Trust me, the way I have the whole weird system set up WILL make sense in my story and it has to stay like this for major reasons I can't spoil. I think I am going to stick with the color-change idea but was hoping to get some inspiration.


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## Devor (Jan 9, 2012)

Depending on why you need the world that way, there could be other planetary objects in the sky whose movements are used to tell time.  The moon and planets can sometimes be seen during the day, or instead of different color "flashes," perhaps there are stars which come in and out of the range of daytime visibility, and they could come in different colors or sizes or have weird names.  I think that would give your system a little more depth and character.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jan 9, 2012)

How time works is so fundamental to civilization that it would underlie everything. A world that has no night, presumably has never had night. If there's some phenomenon that fluctuates on a regular basis (e.g. the rotation of the planet) then that makes timekeeping relatively easy. If there isn't, then it's much more difficult.

What would a civilization be like without regular timekeeping? Do people in this world sleep? Without nature indicating the passage of time, perhaps people would be less worried about regularized tasks. They'd probably still invent timekeeping devices (without modern technology, hourglasses are the only thing I can think of).

Or perhaps the sun is centered above, but it's not quite bright enough to wash out the stars; and the world (which is perhaps flat but shaped like a disc) spins on a vertical axis (like an LP), so that the stars move around up above. Then you can tell time by the stars moving relative to the sun.


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## Aegrus (Jan 9, 2012)

Civilizations, even primitive ones, can do amazing things when properly motivated.  Look at the pyramids.  Look at greek architecture.  Look at the man in a WWII concentration camp who planned a new type of working calculator without any training or materials.

In a society where the sun never sets, telling time would become a major priority, so rest assured that someone would go to remarkable lengths to invent something.

Large clocks(such as the kind you find on towers) keep time very well without modern power sources.  Handheld watches can also be wound up and operated by wieghts and gears.  It's not impossible (or even improbable) for a skilled person to build those kinds of things, even without modern technology.  I may be wrong, but I think those things appeared in our world around the 1800s, but in your society, where telling time is both harder and essential, I would think they could develop much earlier if you wanted them to.


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## Graham Irwin (Jan 10, 2012)

What about a metronome?


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jan 10, 2012)

Aegrus said:


> In a society where the sun never sets, telling time would become a major priority, so rest assured that someone would go to remarkable lengths to invent something.



Are you certain? Without a constant reminder of the passage of time (the day/night cycle), isn't it plausible that a society might develop that doesn't worry so much about being on time, keeping track of time, counting time? At least, it's entirely reasonable that a fantasy story might have such a civilization.


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## Devor (Jan 10, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Are you certain? Without a constant reminder of the passage of time (the day/night cycle), isn't it plausible that a society might develop that doesn't worry so much about being on time, keeping track of time, counting time? At least, it's entirely reasonable that a fantasy story might have such a civilization.



I think that would depend in part on whether or not there are still seasons and how far societies have developed.  There's quite a few places in the real world that don't give much stock to being on time, so I don't consider that to be much of a stretch at all.  In fact, caring much about the time is kind of modern.

But I came back to the thread to mention, if they can't tell time by the sky, maybe they could tell time by the tidal currents or some other movements in the water.  It's not too hard to imagine a two-tide system that can give you a "morning" and "evening" and work on a flat planet with the sky on lockdown.


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## Taytortots (Jan 10, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Without a constant reminder of the passage of time (the day/night cycle), isn't it plausible that a society might develop that doesn't worry so much about being on time, keeping track of time, counting time?



I think they still would. I see what you mean though, they would most likely view time in a much different way than we do. (Something to think about, Androxine.) But these people would still need to get places on time, work etc.

I think the sky changing color is a good idea, though it may draw questions of How. The other ideas stated could also work. An hour glass that goes for a day, with a tick to mark off an hour, say. Or something operated with gears (if large, can be run my labor or magic, depending on your world, in small, and enchantment perhaps).

Well, I hope this helped. Depending on your novel, these all may not work, but i'm sure there will be something that sticks. Good luck.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jan 10, 2012)

Well, the tides depend on another orbiting (non-static) body, e.g. the moon. If the sky is totally static, then what's causing the tides?

Anyway, it really depends on exactly what parameters A.V. wants the world to have. I think it'd be interesting to have a world that spins like a record, relative to the sun and stars. Maybe the sun also orbits it, or something. *shrug*


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## ThinkerX (Jan 10, 2012)

Water clocks?  A 'day' being equal to how long it takes dripping water (maybe diverted from a river or some such) to fill a container? Maybe set up so that each time the container is filled, a bell or gong is rung?  With a semi-religious order whose sole task is to make sure all this happens as it is supposed to?

(this actually sounds like the sort of thing a dwarven culture might come up with on a world like that).

As for longer periods...at some point, other planets should be visible at regular intervals.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 10, 2012)

Thank you for all the responses, and I know this is a weird topic/thread lol

@Taytortots
I have thought about how they would view time actually. Obviously it's never night but It's never going to be "high noon" all day long. With the "sky changing color" idea I have right now, I would make it so that when it would be "daytime" (at least in OUR sense) the sky would be a mixture of brighter colors. Then at "nighttime" the sky's shades would darken to maybe a heavy blue mixed with purple or something like that to suggest the ideal of an ending day. So technically it is always day, but certain parts of it are darker in color than other. Something I'm still working on.

@Benjamin Clayborne
I really like the idea of the world spinning like a record. I might try and work something out with that

In regards to the "tides" suggestion, yes it is true tides are caused by the moon and other orbital functions, but I am not planning to go too into detail in this science. I'm not trying to explain why this world exists the way it does by our laws. In other words, the world i am creating can not exist without breaking the laws of physics. That's a fact. So what I am going to do is create this world, put the reader in it, and explain why it is different and less of how it is, if that make sense. 

I want the reader to realize they are in a totally different world but I don't want them trying to prove/disprove how the world functions in comparison to ours. I'm pretty sure that when J.K Rowling wrote the Harry Potter series, she wasn't woried about explaining how magic effects the atoms and molecules in the air. No, she suggested that magic existed and the reader was just supposed to go along with that notion. At the same time, I'm not going to make it too ridiculous. I'm not saying "there is no gravity and everything is made out of cheese." 

I feel like I'm going on a rant, but maybe that's just me having a hard time trying to explain what it is I am shooting for. I think you get my drift.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jan 10, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> I want the reader to realize they are in a totally different world but I don't want them trying to prove/disprove how the world functions in comparison to ours. I'm pretty sure that when J.K Rowling wrote the Harry Potter series, she wasn't woried about explaining how magic effects the atoms and molecules in the air. No, she suggested that magic existed and the reader was just supposed to go along with that notion. At the same time, I'm not going to make it too ridiculous. I'm not saying "there is no gravity and everything is made out of cheese."



Sure, just keep in mind that Potter's "magic" was layered on top of the normal physical world. You're talking about changing the underlying physical world, which has much more profound effects. In other words, if you simply declare that (for example) there's never nighttime in your world, but otherwise nothing changes, that will seem weird -- if there's never night, why do people sleep? Do businesses close? Etc.


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## Johnny Cosmo (Jan 10, 2012)

The world of Harry Potter has our world as it's basis, and it's magic only requires you to suspend your disbelief to a certain point. If you change the core characteristics of your world, but otherwise the world functions much the same as ours, then I'm not sure what the point is (other than it being a cool idea, which might be a valid reason anyway).

Not that you shouldn't do it, but I think you should at least consider the knock-on effect of your alterations, and what they mean. You can decide from there what you want to include, but if you're not aware of your own rules, then you may have problems with consistency.

Otherwise, I think there are some cool ideas in this thread for timekeeping. I particularly like the idea of a machine and a holy order that protect it's integrity.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 10, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Sure, just keep in mind that Potter's "magic" was layered on top of the normal physical world. You're talking about changing the underlying physical world, which has much more profound effects. In other words, if you simply declare that (for example) there's never nighttime in your world, but otherwise nothing changes, that will seem weird -- if there's never night, why do people sleep? Do businesses close? Etc.





Johnny Cosmo said:


> The world of Harry Potter has our world as it's basis, and it's magic only requires you to suspend your disbelief to a certain point. If you change the core characteristics of your world, but otherwise the world functions much the same as ours, then I'm not sure what the point is (other than it being a cool idea, which might be a valid reason anyway).
> 
> Not that you shouldn't do it, but I think you should at least consider the knock-on effect of your alterations, and what they mean. You can decide from there what you want to include, but if you're not aware of your own rules, then you may have problems with consistency.
> 
> Otherwise, I think there are some cool ideas in this thread for timekeeping. I particularly like the idea of a machine and a holy order that protect it's integrity.



Yeah those are good points, but I think you get what I meant with my example lol. What are some things that you think would make this fantasy setting different from any other setting in the sense of my always daytime idea? For the time being, it operates just the same as any other fantasy setting except for the reasons listed previously but I'm open to suggestions. Like you said, When do people sleep? Do businesses close? If this was your story, How would you make society operate and function?


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## Johnny Cosmo (Jan 10, 2012)

If it were my story, I'd probably work out the astronomical and geographical details first. But as you don't want to get too bogged down in that stuff, I'm sure you could make some guesses. As long as there is reason, it doesn't have to make perfect sense in a fantasy setting.


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## Devor (Jan 10, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> Do businesses close?



With perpetual sunlight people wouldn't really have a "down" period in their shopping patterns, and depending on the details, might not have regular cycles to when they go out and when they stay in and the like.  I find it likely that many small shops would struggle with that because it means that as a shopkeeper you have to find people you trust as much as yourself to make decisions in the store 24/7.  That would have significant ramifications on the way businesses behave, and 2 or 3-way partnerships would very likely be the norm.

The thing is, that forces people to work closer together earlier in society than they would have otherwise, so you might see more ingenuity being produced whenever those partnerships do work out.  I would also suspect a super-center in your world much earlier than in ours because some of these partnerships will likely work very well together, and because that would create some of that predictable customer traffic that would otherwise be completely lacking.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 10, 2012)

Devor said:


> With perpetual sunlight people wouldn't really have a "down" period in their shopping patterns, and depending on the details, might not have regular cycles to when they go out and when they stay in and the like.  I find it likely that many small shops would struggle with that because it means that as a shopkeeper you have to find people you trust as much as yourself to make decisions in the store 24/7.  That would have significant ramifications on the way businesses behave, and 2 or 3-way partnerships would very likely be the norm.
> 
> The thing is, that forces people to work closer together earlier in society than they would have otherwise, so you might see more ingenuity being produced whenever those partnerships do work out.  I would also suspect a super-center in your world much earlier than in ours because some of these partnerships will likely work very well together, and because that would create some of that predictable customer traffic that would otherwise be completely lacking.



I am planning on making "nighttime" sky darker colors that way it would kind of resemble nighttime. Although it would never truly be night so maybe the culture is split where people mainly work during the "day" then sleep at "night" and then the other side does vise versa. That way it is sort of like a 24/7 culture/society to further emphasize my never-ending-day theme. What do you think of that?


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## Devor (Jan 10, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> I am planning on making "nighttime" sky darker colors that way it would kind of resemble nighttime. Although it would never truly be night so maybe the culture is split where people mainly work during the "day" then sleep at "night" and then the other side does vise versa. That way it is sort of like a 24/7 culture/society to further emphasize my never-ending-day theme. What do you think of that?



Whatever you want to do is up to you, but if you create this strange set up and then tweak it to undermine all of the strange and compelling effects that would come from it, at some point you start ask, "What's the point?"  I'm not saying you have to listen to this idea or another one specifically - you're the author, it's your world, your decisions - but to me, I'd say this world should feel pretty strange, just go with it.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 10, 2012)

Devor said:


> Whatever you want to do is up to you, but if you create this strange set up and then tweak it to undermine all of the strange and compelling effects that would come from it, at some point you start ask, "What's the point?"  I'm not saying you have to listen to this idea or another one specifically - you're the author, it's your world, your decisions - but to me, I'd say this world should feel pretty strange, just go with it.



Well yeah I know I have the final say in this because it is my book, but still it doesn't hurt to find inspiration from others lol. I'm not asking for someone to develope the plot for me, just some ideas. I'm not exactly sure by what you meant by undermining it. Could you explain some more on that?


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## OrionDarkwood (Jan 17, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> I am having trouble developing a way for my characters in my fantasy world to tell time. "Why not just use a sun dial? Or use the 24 hour system with day and night?" Well in my story, there are a few things to consider.
> 
> -In my story the world IS flat so there is no orbital revolutions.
> 
> ...



I like the turning colors and the turning colors could be that the Earth may never move but doesn't mean other things are not moving and partially or wholly coming between them and the sun (which explains the colors). Otherwise they are always hourglasses but colors would be nice.. I can see it now Now during time purple is Disco with the Vikings LOL


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 17, 2012)

OrionDarkwood said:


> I like the turning colors and the turning colors could be that the Earth may never move but doesn't mean other things are not moving and partially or wholly coming between them and the sun (which explains the colors). Otherwise they are always hourglasses but colors would be nice.. I can see it now Now during time purple is Disco with the Vikings LOL



Oh for a moment I thought you were Devor. You both have the same avatar. This could cause much confusion in the future...


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## Ghost (Jan 18, 2012)

I think the colorful sky is good for time-keeping, but making one set of colors for day and the other for night doesn't make sense to me. Why not just stick with day and night if the colors represent day and night?

This is just my opinion, but I think it would be better to have different ways of organizing how people and businesses run. Some cultures are less strict about business hours and vacations. You might go to your favorite bakery and find that the baker went to Brazil for the month. I could see a society developing a very relaxed attitude about time. Productivity might be viewed differently under an unchanging sun. Maybe you're gambling whenever you go to your favorite vendor. Maybe you're not sure if your friend will meet you during the right color. People might not feel 8 hours of sleep was necessary. They might split it up. Maybe the sun affects their cycles so they take several naps instead. It doesn't have to be so rigid.

You could still develop time-keeping devices, but I imagine they'd be very different. I'm not sure how you'd show the passage of longer periods of time like years. It could be  related to how long it takes something to happen (a tree or animal to mature? the moon to change positions?), it could have cultural significance, or it may not even be important.

I don't think there's anything wrong with what you're doing. I agree with the others that you should consider the ramifications. I'm assuming plants wouldn't have seasonal growing cycles. Maybe a certain flower blossoms during purple time. Animals probably wouldn't have regular breeding seasons. Maybe it's a free for all or there's something else affecting the environment, like the rate world's spinning (fast season/slow season). Since you're making it clear that this world doesn't have the same set of rules, I don't mind that things couldn't exist in real life. I just don't like the idea of schedules and timekeeping being essentially the same as it is here in spite of the constant sun.


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## grahamguitarman (Jan 19, 2012)

I agree that having day and night colours defeats the point.  why say you are not going to have day and night then set in place exactly that?

I think the idea of a world that is in permanent daylight is actually a very interesting concept, and that you should try to explore the impact of that on civilisation, rather than try to alter it to fit our idea of what a civilisation should be!

In one of my stories there is a location where the island is in permanent daylight for six months followed by six months of night.  They have clocks to measure time, but that is because they need to be in sync with the rest of the world which is in normal time.  

In your world I suspect there would be a completely different perception of time, concepts such as today, tomorrow, noon and night would not exist (unless you implement the darker phase you described)  This re-imagining of time would for me be a huge opportunity for writing whole new ideas and concepts.

Would they even care about the concept of time like we do? or would they simply go to sleep when they are tired and eat when they are hungry. (would they even need sleep?)  

Just a thought, if the sun is permanently suspended above your world, then it would have to be very weak to prevent everyone from being burned alive (unless you want a 'Dune' type culture).  If the sun is fairly weak, then at the horizon maybe the light isn't strong enough to block out the stars beyond.  I'm thinking here of a situation where directly above you have a blue sky with a weak sun, which then fades into a darker blue-purple at the horizon with stars and planets visible in a band that wraps all around the horizon.  

You would then have the basis for a whole new type of astronomy based on the phenomenom of that permanent band of dark sky.


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## SeverinR (Jan 19, 2012)

One thought I had was maybe looking at history of Eskimos.
They lived in parts with long term day, and long term nights. (Land of the midnight sun)
How did they tell time during the long periods of light and dark.

Metronome was an interesting idea, does a larger metronome move at the same pace as the smaller?

The spinning of the world like an LP, would also offer a way of tracking time.  Depending on the speed of the spin, one rotation could be a day.  Might need to think of how spinning like a disk would affect people, rather then rotation like a ball.

Water clock, sand clock would work, the time it takes for a certain amount of ____, to drop into the lower chamber would mark time, a large one could be equivalent to a day.  Business would probably be built around it, so the store keepers could watch time. (know when to close, etc)

In more primative times, time was not as important, but people have to rest, and if no measure to set limits, lazy people could "rest" longer then normal, and more active would work longer and both would get the same "pay".  Seconds and even minutes tend to be less important, but hours and days would still be.

Without a ball world, temp would probably remain fairly stable, except for weather(rain) when the sun is blocked by clouds. LP rotation would offer a reason for weather to move around, unmoving world would still have rain like a biosphere, moisture builds up in the sky blocking out the sun until it rains down on society, so rain would be cyclic, and might offer a time frame too.

Candle marks might work, the time it takes for a candle to burn down so much, but different types and consistancy of wax would have to be dealt with. Maybe a ministry of time to make the proper width candle to allow for the different waxes to still burn at the same rate.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jan 19, 2012)

SeverinR said:


> Metronome was an interesting idea, does a larger metronome move at the same pace as the smaller?



Metronomes move based on the position of the weight on the needle. Move it up, and the metronome moves slower. You could make two metronomes of different sizes oscillate at the same frequency just by putting the weights in appropriate positions.


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## Ghost (Jan 19, 2012)

SeverinR said:


> moisture builds up in the sky blocking out the sun until it rains down on society, so rain would be cyclic, and might offer a time frame too.



Ah, that's awesome! I could imagine a character getting irritated that she got stuck in the pre-rain traffic rush. Or if the cycle lasts a while, rainy season could be like winter with people staying indoors, and the dry season starts the new year.


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## Butterfly (Jan 20, 2012)

How about a huge hour-glass on top of a tower - like a clock tower - bells chiming away to mark the passing of a time period be it 24 hours, 12 hours, etc, could be turned and chimed mechanically, magically, manually.

But this world, where it is always day makes me think of that planet in Pitch Black, with two suns, as one set the other would rise so it was always day, until they were aligned and eclipsed by other planets causing weeks of endless darkness. That's when all the monsters came out to play!!!


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2012)

It's hard to come up with a system for this because well obviously we have no experience to write about this. I can't say, "I remember that time the sun didn't go down for a year." I do not want people to just have an unorganized time system and "nap when they feel like it" I think for this new system it needs to be more organized than that. 

I am trying to build a world that is very different from our own. Never ending day, the world is flat, I didn't mention this before but there isn't any winter. Now I know this setting would be impossible but in my world, it is created by Gods and Divine beings. They shape creation and existence to their view and their word is law. All of the Gods in my novel are what the people call "Star Gods" or the Celestial Children. Although there is never ending day, the sky is a riot of wild colors and the constellations of the Gods and heaven burn bright. So even though there is day and never night, the Stars are always there.

The Gods wage war against each other to claim the Sun Throne as their own and become the dominant deity of heaven and earth. Since stars and the sky have a big impact in my setting, the priests of these Gods have spells and rituals to move the sky and stars above them. So by worshipping their patron God and using sorcery to alter the stars positions, they are able to move the stars of their Gods to be eclipsed under the sun. So let's say people in a certain area have a drought. They will pray to their God of Fertility and so when his star is in alignment with the Sun, then his powers will be strengthened and rain will come.

I don't plan on going into hyper-specific detail on how the sun and day affects every single thing, but at the same time I am not trying to be cliche or lazy by saying, "It's divine and unfathomalbe." While technically it is, this world by our laws can not exist. So the reader has to keep in mind that you would have to view this world through different laws of physics, laws that would be impossible to rationally explain and prove because how would we prove them? We only have our view of reality and physics so to go through and explain the why and how of every aspect and detail would be impossible and besides the point. I just want the reader to feel and know that they are in totally different world, in time, space, and understanding.

I think I like the idea of using devices such as hourglasses and things like that. I have also considered using the actual colors of the sky to tell time. If the same cycle of colors occur and do not change duration, then perhaps they can develope a time system based on the color. Maybe somthing like There are 6 colors in the primary color wheel. 24 hours in a day. 24 divided by 6 is 4. So each color could have 4 "hours" before changing to the next color, and each one of those 4 of a specific color will have a different tint or shade. So the "warm" colors would be like day while the "cooler" colors are like night. Something like this would be a "time chart" of a day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RGV_color_wheel_1908.png

What are your thoughts on this? I am taking all of your thoughts and suggestions, but I really would like to stick with the "color-change" idea I have.


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## Drakhov (Feb 2, 2012)

The concept of time is an artificial construct, on our world based on the relative position of our sun to us - dawn is when it appears above one horizon, at noon it's directly overhead (at least on the equator) and dusk is when it dissapears on the opposite horizon - we rationalized the passage of time between these events based on the sun's 'passage' across the sky and invented seconds, minutes and hours.

On your disc-shaped (you said flat and i think that's been interpreted here to mean disc-shaped) world, the sun's position is constant - directly overhead.  But if you think about it that's only true for the people who live at the centre of the disc - the further away from the centre (or the closer to the 'edge') you are then the sun's relative position changes. I think though it would still be in the same constant relative position (any astronomers or astrophysicysts (is that a word?) in who can put me straight on that?) so you can't use the sun's position as a marker as we do on Earth. So if you're talking about how to mark the passage of time, and what 'time' it is where you are, then you would probably have to take that into account also.

There must be some cosmic or meteorological phenomenon that causes your world's sky to change colour, and to do so in such a regular way it can be used to mark time.  Your culture would have to have a pretty nuanced perception of colour to use this for accurate time keeping though, but could be an interesting way to mark units of time - tones, shades and spectrals? So a 'spectral' is marked when the sky's color changes from, say, Bright Yellow, to Emerald Green, with the 'shades' being the smaller divisions of the 'spectra', and 'tones' being the divisions of the 'shades'.

If you're set on the changing sky to denote the time then it probably doesn't matter, but if for example your world doesn't spin on a completely flat plane, like a record on a turntable, but 'rocks' on it's pivot? This way you could use a kind of sundial, only instead of the angle of the gnomon's shadow indicating the time, it's the length of the shadow denoting the hour, and whether the shadow is 'centrewise' or 'edgewise' to denote 'morning' and 'evening'. Others here have suggested using other celestial objects as reference points, so that as the world spins the 'hour' is marked when a pointer aligns with the object.


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