# [Reading Group] March 2014: His Majesty's Dragon Discussion



## Philip Overby

Our February 2014 "dragon themed" book is going to be _His Majesty's Dragon_ by Naomi Novik. 








Please borrow or purchase the book in your preferred format and begin reading it. We'll start discussion on March 1st, 2014. The book has 12 chapters, but they're longer than most books. However, it has three roman numeral sections. I think it may be good to break down the discussion as such:

*Week 1 (Mar. 1st-8th): Section I
Week 2 (Mar. 9th-15th): Section II
Week 3: (Mar. 16th-22nd): End of Section II/Beginning of Section III
Week 4: (Mar. 23rd-31st): End of Section III/Epilogue*

We'll have to see how things break down as we go, but let's make this the tentative plan.

Here's a brief synopsis of the story:

_Aerial combat brings a thrilling new dimension to the Napoleonic Wars as valiant warriors rise to Britain’s defense by taking to the skies . . . not aboard aircraft but atop the mighty backs of fighting dragons.

When HMS Reliant captures a French frigate and seizes its precious cargo, an unhatched dragon egg, fate sweeps Capt. Will Laurence from his seafaring life into an uncertain future—and an unexpected kinship with a most extraordinary creature. Thrust into the rarified world of the Aerial Corps as master of the dragon Temeraire, he will face a crash course in the daring tactics of airborne battle. For as France’s own dragon-borne forces rally to breach British soil in Bonaparte’s boldest gambit, Laurence and Temeraire must soar into their own baptism of fire._

While this is the beginning of the _Temeraire_ series, Ophiucha mentioned that it can be read as a complete story. 

You can buy the book here: Amazon.com: His Majesty's Dragon (Temeraire) eBook: Naomi Novik: Kindle Store

Looking forward to it!


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## Ankari

Ok, I bought it today.


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## Steerpike

I can't find my copy. Probably have to buy it again. I'll pick it up in the next week or so.


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## Philip Overby

I just bought it as well. It's not too expensive on Kindle thankfully. That's one advantage of getting a book that's been out for a while!


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## Steerpike

Yeah, I will probably get it on Kindle. I may have given it away. I don't remember much about it except that I put it down and never picked it up again


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## Philip Overby

I do that with so many books. It's not always because they're bad or I don't like them, I just find something else I want to read more at the moment and then it goes away one way or another. Doing this reading group is at least making me focus on mostly one book at a time (key word _mostly_).


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## ACSmyth

Just worried myself. The Novik book I have is called Temeraire, and I thought I might have the wrong one. Turns out it was published in the UK as Temeraire and in the US as His Majesty's Dragon, so I'm good to go!

Well, when I've finished Prince of Thorns, anyway.


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## Gryphos

Aight then, I've got it ordered and look forward to reading it.


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## Roan Davidson

Is it all right to invite myself into the group? I've got the book on Kindle and would love to join the discussion.


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## Philip Overby

Yes, of course, Roan. Feel free to join in!


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## Roan Davidson

Thanks much.


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## T.Allen.Smith

I'll pick this up tonight.


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## Ophiucha

I have all the Temeraire books on my dresser after I ran out of room on all my book cases.  At least I won't forget about reading it with them there.


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## SM-Dreamer

Placed it on hold at the library, so I'll pick it up in a day or so.


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## Philip Overby

I'm glad to see so many people interested! Please remember to nominate books for April when you get the chance. Our theme for April is going to be "classics." You can nominate up to three books if you so chose. I'll be nominating some today.


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## Steerpike

Oh, THREE 

Dang, need to edit my post.


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## J. S. Elliot

I have the first five books of this series! (I really do need to find the rest, but it's hard to find them in hardcover to match the omnibus I already own - though the art in that is fantastic.) I imagine I'll be participating in this discussion. ^^


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## Ophiucha

I own the first five in paperback and then the next two in hardcover - drives me nuts. I haven't bought the eighth one yet, but the publisher also changed the texture of the book jacket? It's the same height, at least, but it's kind of weird to have a mix of rough/paper-y jackets and glossy ones.


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## ACSmyth

I finished my previous bath book, so I've got a flying start (no pun intended) on this one. Really enjoying it so far. I haven't read a book where dragons are part of the main cast for ages, and Temeraire is a sweetheart. I cut my fantasy teeth on the Pern novels, though, so this is familiar territory for me.


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## Philip Overby

OK, so we're going to start this book soon. I haven't gotten a chance to crack it open yet, so I'm probably going to be behind. If someone could be super awesome and start the discussion, that would be great! Of course it doesn't start until March 1st, so still some time left. 

In the meantime, I'll offer up some prelim questions:

*1. Have you read Novik's work before? What do you think of it?

2. What are your expectations of this book? (for those who haven't read it)

3. If this was your choice for this month, why did you chose it?*

Maybe those can start us off. Looking forward to starting myself!


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## ACSmyth

1. Have you read Novik's work before? What do you think of it?
No. Nothing.

2. What are your expectations of this book? (for those who haven't read it)
I'm hopeful I'll enjoy it. I bought it because it was recommended as part of a discussion I had online somewhere. I can't remember where (maybe Google+) and I can't remember the topic (although clearly fantasy novels) and it sounded like something I'd like. It's been in my TBR for probably a year now, and I just haven't got around to reading it yet.

3. If this was your choice for this month, why did you chose it?
I didn't vote, but I'd have voted for this, purely because I had it already. I'm trying to dent my TBR books before buying too many new ones.


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## Steerpike

*1. Have you read Novik's work before? What do you think of it?
*
Yes. This same book, in fact. I didn't finish it, and didn't think it was very well-written.

*
2. What are your expectations of this book? (for those who haven't read it)
*
They were low, since I'd started it before and not finished. Usually that means I found the book not to be very well done. I'll read anything of any genre, so it is rarely a character or story issue since I'm open to anything along those lines. I'm currently about 90 ereader-pages into the re-read. I can see why I never finished it, so my take on March's choice may be different from others. 

*3. If this was your choice for this month, why did you chose it?

*It was not


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## Philip Overby

Steerpike: do you think you'll attempt to finish the book this time even if you didn't like it before? I've found books I had trouble with early on (Gardens of the Moon stands out in my mind) actually ended up being one of my favorite books.

If you had trouble finishing it before, without spoiling anything, what was the difficulty? I'm curious about this book's discussion because I get the feeling some of us are more excited about it than others. I think this is actually a good thing in some ways so we're not all agreeing with each other the whole time.

I had no preconceived notions of the story, so I have no expectations really. I was the one that nominated this book, but it was mostly because I overheard some good things about it in the past. 

I actually did a book club with Wizard of Earthsea and couldn't get through it. Not that the book was bad or anything, it just wasn't the style I was used to so I struggled with it. I hope with this group people can get through the books so we can talk about not only how if we were entertained, but if we learned anything as writers from the story (something I want to bring up about Prince of Thorns as well).


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## Steerpike

I'm definitely going to finish it, for the book club. The difficulty before is the same as this time - the writing is pretty bad. That's usually the only thing that will flat out stop me reading a book. I don't want to color your perceptions of it before you've had a chance to view it with fresh eyes. You may well disagree with me. But I just think the book is poorly executed. In theory, it is something I'd like. People make comparisons to Patrick O'Brian, who I like, and then you throw in dragons! Sounds cool, right? Well, it should have been


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## Philip Overby

I think this will be a good book to analyze not only from a reader perspective, but a writer perspective also then because if there are mixed opinions on this, it'll prove to be a more interesting discussion. I felt like most of the group liked Prince of Thorns on one level or another, even if they weren't enthralled by it. So I'm interested to see how this one goes if we have some readers who outright don't like it.


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## Gryphos

*1. Have you read Novik's work before? What do you think of it?
*
Nope.

*2. What are your expectations of this book? (for those who haven't read it)
*
I'm expecting something in the vein of Master & Commander with dragons, with political dialogue and interesting battles.

*3. If this was your choice for this month, why did you chose it?
*
I personally was just intrigued by the concept of an alternate reality story set during the Napoleonic Wars, with dragons.


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## Ophiucha

1. Yes, and I generally like it. I like the setting, I like the characters. There are certainly some faults - particularly in later books once the series develops a bit of a 'formula', but at least the worldbuilding and the relationship between the two main characters remains entertaining.

3. Naomi Novik is a pretty cool lady (I've met her ), part of that current wave of late 30s/early 40s New York women getting into fantasy writing from more geeky roots (used to work on video games, used to write fanfiction). But she's just about the only one in that group isn't just writing YA. Also, I already own the book, so...


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## Roan Davidson

Philip Overby said:


> *1. Have you read Novik's work before? What do you think of it?
> 
> 2. What are your expectations of this book? (for those who haven't read it)
> 
> 3. If this was your choice for this month, why did you chose it?*
> 
> Maybe those can start us off. Looking forward to starting myself!



1. No, this is a new author for me.

2. I'll be comparing this one to *Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norell*, another magical alt-history of the Napoleanic wars (with the best footnotes ever), whether I want to or not! But it'll be fun to see the differences.

3. N/A


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## SM-Dreamer

*1. Have you read Novik's work before? What do you think of it?*
Nope, new author for me.

*2. What are your expectations of this book? (for those who haven't read it)*
Don't really have any; hoping I'll enjoy it, but that's about it. Curious, I suppose.

*3. If this was your choice for this month, why did you chose it?*
Wouldn't have been my first choice (not my preferred time-era) but I'm generally content to read anything recommended to me. Broadening my horizons and all that.


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## Philip Overby

So I'd like to give some "first five pages" (well, actually 20 page or so) kind of thoughts since I feel like I'm going to find this read significantly slower for me than _Prince of Thorns._ I hate to compare the two, but I guess it's inevitable since we just came off reading a more quick paced book.

So far, I can't say I've been really hooked. I like the idea of discovering a dragon's egg, but the characters haven't really jumped out to me as of yet. I'm assuming Laurence is going to be one of our main characters, but I don't know, he just seems kind of flat so far. It's probably going to take me a while to get into this book I feel, but hopefully it will pay off the further in I get since I do think this is an awesome concept (the reason I picked the book in the first place).


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## Ankari

I'm with you on the writing style. I'm attributing it to the character and setting. Laurence is British, and the pacing/grammar/word usage feels very _British._ It seems to complement the character very well.

I'm thrown off by the way dragons work. A dragon knows English when they first hatch? _English?_ Really?


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## Steerpike

Ankari said:


> I'm with you on the writing style. I'm attributing it to the character and setting. Laurence is British, and the pacing/grammar/word usage feels very _British._ It seems to complement the character very well.
> 
> I'm thrown off by the way dragons work. A dragon knows English when they first hatch? _English?_ Really?



Yeah, and the language makes less sense when you learn more about the dragon. I think Novik is trying to emulate a certain writing style but can't quite pull it off.


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## Gryphos

Yeah, the dragon speaking english right out of the egg threw me too. Maybe there's some kind of explanation to it, but I can't think of any. I mean, I've read a few chapters in and therefore know Temeraire's breed, and it really does make so little sense that he would speak english.

With regards to Laurence's 'flatness', I would put that down to the setting more than anything. Being in command positions, all the main characters are forced into that formal tone whenever they interact with each other. And it is early days after all. I would assume that characters will grow on the reader as they progress a bit further than the first few chapters.


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## Philip Overby

Gryphos said:


> Yeah, the dragon speaking english right out of the egg threw me too. Maybe there's some kind of explanation to it, but I can't think of any. I mean, I've read a few chapters in and therefore know Temeraire's breed, and it really does make so little sense that he would speak english.
> 
> With regards to Laurence's 'flatness', I would put that down to the setting more than anything. Being in command positions, all the main characters are forced into that formal tone whenever they interact with each other. And it is early days after all. I would assume that characters will grow on the reader as they progress a bit further than the first few chapters.



As I'm finishing up the first chapter, I do find Laurence to be a bit more interesting, mostly because of his relationship with the dragon (which I'm going to have a hard time remembering how to spell his name every time). The dragon hatching definitely woke up the story for me so far, but I'd say if I just read the sample of this, I may have put it aside up to this point. However, I do realize this is an older book, so I don't think every book needs to be "wham, pow, boom" right from the gate. I do think that tends to be a more recent development with reader expectations. So I'm fine with a slow burn if it pays off in some way.


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## ACSmyth

I'm enjoying this one a lot. I didn't even question the dragon speaking English, but then I think I just mentally went back to Pern with telepathic dragons and assumed it was something of that nature.

And I'm not finding the style problematic, either, but (a) I'm British, and (b) I grew up reading a lot of classics, so maybe I've just slotted naturally back into that style?


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## Steerpike

I read a lot of classics, and indeed a lot of British novels, and have no problem with the style itself. I see what Novik is try to do with it, but I think she just misses the mark. I'm well into Part II and Laurence is still flat - if he left the story I wouldn't miss him. I like Temeraire, though. There have been places where the book shows promise, but on the whole the writing has remained rather dull and maintained a distance from the story. You can do that sort of thing successfully, but you have to be a much better writer, in my opinion.


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## Philip Overby

Yeah, I agree it doesn't have anything to do with the British style for me. Some of my favorite authors are British: (Abercrombie, Mieville, etc.) I kind of agree with Steerpike in that the writing seems distant in some way. I can't quite put my finger on it as of yet. I do like Temeraire so far. The way he moves, talks, etc. is kind of interesting for me to see. And I guess that's one reason I picked this one anyway is for the dragon. 

For those who enjoy Laurence so far, can you pinpoint why? I want to like him, but I guess I'm just waiting for him to grow on me (which some characters just take longer than others).


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## Roan Davidson

Gryphos said:


> With regards to Laurence's 'flatness', I would put that down to the setting more than anything. Being in command positions, all the main characters are forced into that formal tone whenever they interact with each other. And it is early days after all. I would assume that characters will grow on the reader as they progress a bit further than the first few chapters.



I agree. Plus everything I know about Laurence, I know only because the author told me. Laurence lists the things he misses from his life on land--opera, dining with good company, the girl he left behind--but since I've never seen him actively engaged with those things or that girl, they don't seem real or important. So I don't care when he stands to lose them for good. 

I'm not sure what the solution to that problem is. I understand why the author started the story with the end of the naval battle and the discovery of the egg. Yet I think some glimpse of that life on land would have helped me sympathize more with Laurence. 

As for the dragon speaking English straight out of the egg--I don't get it either. Maybe he learned it really fast via osmosis from the men on the ship . . . but that bit of world building didn't do anything for me. 

I love the idea behind this book--mixing dragon riders with the Napoleonic Wars--but so far I don't think the book lives up to its potential.


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## T.Allen.Smith

I'm only about twenty-five pages into the book. If it weren't for the reading group I probably wouldn't have purchased the book beyond the sample. It's okay, but it doesn't blow me away. Even twenty-five pages in, I feel the author has skimmed over many explanations and descriptives that could strengthen the story. 

It's early, yet I have very little idea of who is who on that ship. So far, it could be Laurence and five other identical characters carrying out hois orders and disciplining deck hands. Very little characterization...which is huge for me.


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## Philip Overby

Well, this does not seem a popular choice so far but I'm still going with it. I feel like this can be a good book for discussion though because it may help reinforce our own ideas about what works and does not work for us.


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## Steerpike

I'm going to finish it, certainly. And I won't want to make it out like it is terrible - it is not. I think the writing has some problems, and maybe Novik overcomes those in later books. It's a bit too detached from the MC to make me care about him. But the concept is interesting, and I quite like Temeraire. Further, I found Chapter 3 (I think it was) enjoyable. I'll have more specifics when we break it down.


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## Philip Overby

Yeah, I like Temeraire a lot too so far and I think the book is decent so far. I'm going with the idea that this is going to be a slow burn so I'm hoping to see various things shine through later.


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## Gryphos

I don't not like the book at all. In fact I'm really enjoying it, mainly just due to the concept. I couldn't help but grin when Laurence was describing the Battle of the Nile in terms of how many dragons each side had.


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## T.Allen.Smith

I agree that the dragons being born & instantly speaking English is hokey. It would have been better if there had been some learning curve, even an accelerated one due to some psychic bond between rider's mind and dragon.

The trouble I have with the writing is simple. It's overly wordy without adding anything special to the prose.


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## Philip Overby

I'm still moving pretty slow so far (only just started Chapter 2) so if anyone else wants to pose any questions or points of discussion for this week, feel free to do so.


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## ACSmyth

I've just finished part 2 and they address the language thing in the last chapter of that part.

Temeraire meets a French dragon and rider, and Temeraire addresses them in French. They express surprise at how good his English is, and say that he obviously picked it up on the ship, because dragons learn language "through the egg". A lot has been made by this point about how quick Temeraire is to learn things (he's learning mathematics from books Lawrence is reading to him, and explaining them to Lawrence), so she is lampshading that particular element.


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## Ophiucha

Yes, she does eventually get around to explaining that. She can be a bit... delayed in addressing things. Everything has an answer, characters get their characterization, but it happens ages after you've nearly forgotten you ever asked the question and you just sort of learned to live with accepting it as part of the story. It works sometimes, doesn't work others.

As for her writing style, she's a huge fan of Master & Commander/Aubrey-Maturin books. Those books are sort of Austen-y with a bit of general Age of Sail-type period jargon. Given the similarities in setting (aside from the dragons) and her love of the series, I'm guessing the style is a mix of that and a bit of the usual fantasy roots. I've only read a bit of one before I gave up - they aren't my sort of thing (no dragons) - so I can't say for sure, but if anyone has read them, do offer your input.

And I kind of like Laurence, but I do love a traditional stick-up-the-arse Brit who gets stuck with a series of whimsical, "plebeian" inconveniences. Probably because I'm British.


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## T.Allen.Smith

What I do like about the book so far is the relationship building between Laurence & Temeraire. I think it's being paced well & it's setting up for the future when their survival will depend on it.

I just wish the author didn't use so many superfluous words. I find myself mentally editing them out which damages immersion.


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## Steerpike

I like wordy books, if they're well done. I liked Master and Commander. I like Jane Austen. I feel like Novik is trying to emulate that style, but not entirely successfully.

My ambivalence toward Laurence isn't that he's a stick-in-the-mud sort of guy. That's fine. I like that sort of character well enough. My ambivalence is due to to the fact that Novik hasn't given me any reason thus far to care about him one way or another.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Steerpike said:


> I like wordy books, if they're well done. I liked Master and Commander. I like Jane Austen. I feel like Novik is trying to emulate that style, but not entirely successfully.


I don't mind wordiness if it's adding an effect. Here I don't think it adds anything positive to the prose. So yeah, if she's trying to emulate snobbish society language, it's a bit off the mark.


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## Ophiucha

I kind of hate wordiness, in fiction.  Novik's attempts bothers me less than most fantasy books purely as its a _sort_ of wordiness I'm less tired of, in the emulated style of the early 19th century novel instead of the high fantasy sort. Though I think she's actually a bit _better_ at writing in the high fantasy style - it sort of comes through when she's dealing with things like how Temeraire moves or the extended worldbuilding.


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## SM-Dreamer

I finished the first part, and I like the style of writing so far. I don’t mind the wordiness; I just hear that proper British-ness in my head, and go with it. I wasn’t too attached to the story at first, though, but before I knew it, I was involved enough that I kept telling myself that I’d stop once I found out x information, then it became Y, then before I knew it, I was 50 pages in.



			
				ophiucha said:
			
		

> And I kind of like Laurence, but I do love a traditional stick-up-the-arse Brit who gets stuck with a series of whimsical, "plebeian" inconveniences. Probably because I'm British.


I think this is why I kind of like Laurence (without being British myself); there’s something about an uptight gentleman getting forced into something like this that appeals to me.

Though I was thrown off by Temeraire’s speaking. I do like that he’s very matter of fact when he speaks, though. And the end of part one got to me, I thought it was touching.


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## Ophiucha

Finished re-reading it last night. Part one drags a bit, but it does get a lot of the necessary information and foreshadowing in. And we get a nice start to the relationship between Laurence and Temeraire, which I think is one of the strengths of the series as a whole.

A small thing that I quite like, worldbuilding-wise, is that dragons don't have a universal personality or intellect. The fact that the second dragon we 'meet' is... a little _slow_, for lack of a more PC word... is a nice change of pace. 

And I really do like how she describes dragon/animal movement. I don't love all of her writing (see: the past page's discussion) but she's really got this evocative imagery down for how dragons walk and fly and look around...


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## Philip Overby

How is everyone else coming with this? I haven't read it much this week, so I'm hoping this weekend I'll get through the first block (Chapters 1-3). 

It's interesting to note that some people are seemingly enjoying it the further they get in. Do you think this is the case of the novel just being hard to get into at first and becoming more rewarding later?


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## ACSmyth

I've pretty much enjoyed it from the get-go to be honest. It reminds me so much of things like Anne McCaffrey and other stuff that I read when I first got into fantasy that it's a bit like coming home for me. I have romped through it, and should finish it tonight. While book 2 isn't the next thing on my list, it will definitely go on my list, and I'll get to it sometime.

I've come to the conclusion that I like that I know exactly what Laurence wants, which is to protect England and care for Temeraire. In contrast, I'm three-quarters of the way through Prince of Thorns (yup, still slogging away) and am no closer to knowing what Jorg wants, or why I should care if he gets it.

Lesson learned: be clear what your main character/hero is striving for.


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## Philip Overby

This is why I find these book groups interesting: the range of opinions on the same book can be pretty wide. Even though I didn't really relate with Jorg, I find him infinitely more interesting than Laurence so far. For me Jorg's goal was pretty clear: get revenge on Count Renar. It may not be laser-focused in some parts, but I knew that was where the story was going. That and for Jorg to carve out his own place in the world separate from his father. 

My view may very well change later on in this novel though. I feel like I'm still in the set-up stage (Chapter 2). The only thing that's clicked with me so far is that I find the descriptions and the way Temeraire acts pretty interesting.


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## ACSmyth

Yes, I know there's the Count Renar motivation, Philip. It just seemed that Jorg wasn't actually doing anything about it. I've been told that's his motive without any real evidence of it. Do you get me? It just doesn't seem very pressing to him anymore. I know there are hints that there's some other force stopping him going out to get his revenge, and I guess that comes in the other two books, but I've been told this is what drives him and he scarcely thinks of it. At least Laurence's motives are front and centre in the story.

I just wrote a paragraph about my issues with Temeraire, as I'm by no means uncritical of it. But if I spill too much there will be spoilers, so I'll sit on my hands for a bit. Sufficient to say, there are big issues with it, but I'm enjoying it more, if that makes sense.


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## ACSmyth

And finished.


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## Roan Davidson

I'm well into part two. It's no hardship to read, and I find watching Laurence navigate his way in his new life more interesting than the way he was torn from his old life in part one. I like the tension between Laurence and Granby and how their relationship develops, and I'm curious to see what happens with Levitas. 

But I'm still not hooked--maybe because I still have limited sympathy for, or interest in, Laurence. Not that he's a bad guy; I just don't feel pulled into his world.


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## Steerpike

I didn't mind that Lawrence doesn't dwell on Jorg's motives. I'm not sure Jorg is always completely focused to begin with. I found that it worked well enough for my tastes.


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## Roan Davidson

Just finished. I'll give it a three-star review on Goodreads. Great concept, a decent story--but I've no interest in reading the rest of the series. I enjoyed it, but it didn't draw me in enough to keep going.


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## Philip Overby

I'll try to get some points up for discussion for the first block by this weekend (Ch. 1-3). We still have three more weeks to go and I hope to get more detailed discussion of certain elements if possible.


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## Philip Overby

So here are some points for discussion for our first block (Ch. 1-3). Please feel free to add any other questions if you so choose.

1. What are your feelings about the relationship between Laurence and Temeraire?

2. What do you think of Novik's style?

3. Do you like Laurence as a main character? Why or why not?

4. Do you like the way Temeraire acts (kind of blunt and curious is my interpretation)?

5. What do you think about the different breeds of dragons? Does this make you more interested to see what other kind of dragons might be in the novel?

6. What are some good points you've found about the novel so far?

7. What some complaints or concerns you have about it so far?


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## Gryphos

*1. What are your feelings about the relationship between Laurence and Temeraire?
*
I really like the relationship between these two, just the way they affectionately interact already starts to show the deep bond that can only develop further over time.

*2. What do you think of Novik's style?
*
I don't have any major problems with the style. It is rather wordy sometimes, but I was just like "meh" and carried on. It takes a lot to actually turn me off reading something, I'm really not picky at all.

*3. Do you like Laurence as a main character? Why or why not?
*
Well, he isn't exactly the most interesting of protagonists, but I wouldn't say I didn't like him. He has a clear sense of duty and, while rigid at first (as you would be in the navy), I can see the likelihood of Temeraire's influence loosening him up later on.

*4. Do you like the way Temeraire acts (kind of blunt and curious is my interpretation)?
*
He is blunt and curious and that's what I like. The way I see it is he's basically still a child that doesn't quite understand the world, so he asks all these questions and doesn't see when he's being blunt about something. But obviously he is also apparently very intelligent, being a Chinese breed, at least  lot more intelligent than Volatilus.

*5. What do you think about the different breeds of dragons? Does this make you more interested to see what other kind of dragons might be in the novel?
*
I'm very interested in the different breeds and the possibilities. They've already talked about how Chinese dragons are basically the best. And also the idea that dragons vary in ability, whether it be fire breathing or poison spitting. It'll be interesting to see the various types in action.

*6. What are some good points you've found about the novel so far?
*
I've very much enjoyed the world building and integration of dragons into a real historical setting. It's just the subtle things that make me smile. For example, out of curiosity I researched the Battle of the Nile and read about how the French ship, Orient, caught fire mysteriously and exploded. And in the novel Laurence talks about remembering seeing a fire-breathing dragon set fire to the Orient. I appreciate that kind of detail.

*7. What some complaints or concerns you have about it so far?
*
One thing that's already been discussed is the whole Temeraire speaking english right out of the shell thing. Apparently it's addressed later on, but it really should have been sooner.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

> 1. What are your feelings about the relationship between Laurence and Temeraire?


It's my favorite part of the story. I like the curiosity and the father/teacher/friend role works. 



> 2. What do you think of Novik's style?


Way too wordy for my taste. It distracts from the story in my opinion. I don't eschew wordiness in reading, but it must add something. It reads as if Novik missed the mark for what she was trying to do & I think others were right. She's trying to pull off a sense of British propriety with the language. It just doesn't work for me.



> 3. Do you like Laurence as a main character? Why or why not?


I'm not sure yet. Outside of his relationship with Temeraire, I really don't know much about him, at least not enough to care yet.



> 4. Do you like the way Temeraire acts (kind of blunt and curious is my interpretation)?


Yes. I like his character the best. It's the natural curiosity of a child within the mature mind of a dragon. This level of curiosity is what makes Temeraire the most interesting character. How does he view a world others take for granted?



> 5. What do you think about the different breeds of dragons? Does this make you more interested to see what other kind of dragons might be in the novel?


Yes. I like the mystery of Temeraire's breed too. There's some uncertainty with his capabilities and how he'll stack up to other dragons.



> 6. What are some good points you've found about the novel so far?


As mentioned above, the relationship. Outside of that I like the concept as a whole. I'm looking forward to seeing the full conflict. However, I'm hoping the writing style doesn't make me quit before I get there. I don't find myself eager to read the next chapter.



> 7. What some complaints or concerns you have about it so far?


Just the overbearing wordiness really. I suppose I'd like to be a bit closer to the POV too. He feels too distant for me to care what happens to him.


----------



## Roan Davidson

Philip Overby said:


> 1. What are your feelings about the relationship between Laurence and Temeraire?



For me, the relationship was Laurence's saving grace. The guy was stiff, priggish and overly-concerned with making sure people showed him the proper respect--and, ok, he's a military man, so that makes sense--but at least he couldn't resist Tremeraire's instant and steadfast devotion.  



> 2. What do you think of Novik's style?



Both too wordy and too distant. I feel like she never went deep enough into Laurence's POV.



> 3. Do you like Laurence as a main character? Why or why not?



He grew on me. But it would have helped if I hadn't felt that the author was keeping me distant from him, letting me know his thoughts but never really letting me into his head.



> 4. Do you like the way Temeraire acts (kind of blunt and curious is my interpretation)?



Yes. I'm with T. Allen Smith on this one: "It's the natural curiosity of a child within the mature mind of a dragon." 



> 5. What do you think about the different breeds of dragons? Does this make you more interested to see what other kind of dragons might be in the novel?



The differing capabilities make for interesting strategies in battle, but I'd be more intrigued if the dragons had cultural differences. Maybe they would have if they'd been raised in their native lands, but here they seem, with just a couple of exceptions, culturally monolithic. 

(They have distinct personalities, though, which don't seem based on breed. I think that's a good thing.)



> 6. What are some good points you've found about the novel so far?



The concept is brilliant. I like the way the author integrated dragons into the Napoleanic War and the way she gave the aerial corps a subculture that was at odds not only with the rest of the military, but with the mores and manners of the day. (This becomes increasingly clear as we meet more female characters.)



> 7. What some complaints or concerns you have about it so far?



I had trouble suspending my disbelief at times: Tremeraire's perfect English out of the egg (even if it was explained) and the idea of a whole crew riding a dragon into battle. And I while I liked various characters, I was never hooked on any of them. I'm glad I read this book, but I won't continue with the series.


----------



## SM-Dreamer

1.	I find it an interesting relationship, Laurence’s fascination, dread, and appreciation for Temeraire, and Temeraire’s matter-of-fact bond with Laurence
2.	The style is ok, a bit dry, but that could just be the character. It kept me tuned in, at least, and I’m a fan of detail and whatnot, so it worked.
3.	He’s… an ok main character? I hear his voice fairly well and imagine him pretty good, and I get him. I think I like him? But it’s hard to tell, haha
4.	I love the way Temeraire acts! It is very… matter of fact. Curious about the world, but he doesn’t hide anything or say more than he needs to. He just is.
5.	I am definitely interested in seeing more dragons, and I am curious about the breeds. I guessed at the possibility of inbreeding problems when I read about Britain having limited breeding stock.
6.	Good points — I do like how the dragons have been integrated into the world, its really seamless. Love the relationship so far.
7.	That Temeraire spoke so early and so clearly, though from the discussion I think I get why, but I wish the author had mentioned at least the possibility of it sooner, rather than leaving me with that jarring moment that threw me out of the book briefly. Um, not thrilled with loading the crew and everything onto that big red dragon (can't remember the name) I ended up skimming ahead because I got lost on what was going where and how big and what I was suppose to envision.


----------



## Ophiucha

How far along is everyone? I just finished re-reading the second part.


----------



## Philip Overby

I'm way behind. Every time I sit down with it I only read about three or four pages. I hope to get caught up to speed by this weekend if possible. 

I'd love it if someone else could pose some questions for the second block or keep the discussion going. Hopefully when I get caught back up, I'll be in a better position to do so.


----------



## SM-Dreamer

I'm very behind; I've been sick for over a week, barely got my schoolwork done.  Will give it another try this weekend when I have more time


----------



## Ankari

I'm 75% through with the book before I'm able to put a finger on what has thrown my mind for a loop. Novik's bad character representation, especially concerning males.

The relationship between Laurence and Temereraire is too _much._ I'm trying to find a better way of describing it, so bear with me.

Temereraire is a dragon, and a massive one at that. His intelligence far exceeds Laurence, his ferocity could eliminate a legion of soldiers, and his size grants him immediate dominance. But Novik flips the relationship on it's head simply by having the dragon born in front of Laurence, and choosing him to be a handler. Suddenly, all that ferocity is set aside for curious infatuation. And Laurence becomes a mother figure. Sacrificial, tender, nourishing, and concerned. Every thought, every resource, is devoted to a  dragon that has chosen him to be caretaker.

Further, every rider appears to be of extreme self control. They forgo physical companionship for long stretches of time. That such a thing happens can be understood. That it doesn't grate on Laurence after so long (I'm estimating close to a year if you factor his time on the ship, and his time with Temeraire), is mind-boggling. Especially for someone as young as he is.

And none of he other riders seem in the least bit affected by this. Sure, they take part in sexual activity, but it seems as an afterthought. Something done because they ran out of port, or they've played enough hands of whatever card game they play. I'm not calling for this book to be graphic, but I am calling attention to the glaring dislike I have with it. The book is _too clean._

I'm wondering if Laurence's character wasn't crafted to mitigate most of these concerns. He's a second son of a lord. Initially, he's unofficially betrothed to a lady. These two make the audience expect such chivalry.

But the engagement _is unofficial._ So when he sends word to Emily (the betrothed) expecting the end of the relationship, and in essence, abandoning it, the audience doesn't put that as a mark against him. They weren't a real thing yet, right? She'll find someone else. She shouldn't have waited in the first place!

Nothing is gritty! In a world that is nothing but grit (war), all the dirt has been swept underneath the carpet. 

Then you have conflict. Fight scenes are pushed back to the background. They are told only to anchor the emotional fallout that follows. Every battle/conflict inevitably leads to a scene asking the reader to feel sympathy, or sorrow. Even later, when an event normally dealt with harsh judgment, is discolored with a consequence that takes the stage over the event itself (I'm being vague because I don't want to spoil anything.). This consequence invites heartache, rather than the anger one normally would feel.

Other issues:

What did dragons do before humans? They are capable of thought, of communication, and of reason. Yet they have subjected themselves to humans because...

The whole "dragons going feral if they don't accept a rider" doesn't sit with me well. They learn communication through the shell. Does that mean they forget it, and their self-awareness, if they don't choose a human? Why isn't there a dragon language? Why don't they have an identity all to themselves, instead of adopting their rider's?

Going back to the feral dragon gripe. A dragon outlives a human. When the human dies, the dragon adapts, by free will, another rider. You see the dragons have free will when Temereraire chose Laurence. Free will. The ability to act for yourself. Yet, if they don't chose a human, suddenly they are little more than wild dogs kept for mating? Why won't they just fly away?

And why would they kill each other to further the agenda of their riders? Because, when the egg cracked, the first thing they saw was a human face? And that eliminates all sense of identity? I have a hard time believing that, especially at discovering just how intelligent Temeraire is.

And for anyone who is an evolutionist, what about the fittest ruling the resources? Dragons are the most dominating species in this world. Why did they just let the pesky humans crawl on their backs and tell them what to do? Why didn't they just keep them fore livestock, breed them, and eat them?


----------



## Roan Davidson

Ankari said:


> What did dragons do before humans? They are capable of thought, of communication, and of reason. Yet they have subjected themselves to humans because...
> 
> The whole "dragons going feral if they don't accept a rider" doesn't sit with me well. They learn communication through the shell. Does that mean they forget it, and their self-awareness, if they don't choose a human? Why isn't there a dragon language? Why don't they have an identity all to themselves, instead of adopting their rider's?
> 
> Going back to the feral dragon gripe. A dragon outlives a human. When the human dies, the dragon adapts, by free will, another rider. You see the dragons have free will when Temereraire chose Laurence. Free will. The ability to act for yourself. Yet, if they don't chose a human, suddenly they are little more than wild dogs kept for mating? Why won't they just fly away?
> 
> And why would they kill each other to further the agenda of their riders? Because, when the egg cracked, the first thing they saw was a human face? And that eliminates all sense of identity? I have a hard time believing that, especially at discovering just how intelligent Temeraire is.
> 
> And for anyone who is an evolutionist, what about the fittest ruling the resources? Dragons are the most dominating species in this world. Why did they just let the pesky humans crawl on their backs and tell them what to do? Why didn't they just keep them fore livestock, breed them, and eat them?



Good point. The book never tells us why dragons allow themselves to be subjugated to humans.

As for feral dragons--I think that was a popular misconception, wasn't it? Doesn't Laurence discover (slight spoiler here) that these feral, handler-less dragons may well have positions of command?


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## Ankari

No. The dragon you're referring to had a rider.


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## Roan Davidson

Ankari said:


> No. The dragon you're referring to had a rider.



I didn't remember that, but even so--again, minor spoiler--when Laurence meets Celeritas for the first time, there is a paragraph about how everything he knew about dragons being useless without handlers, or only good for breeding unharnessed, was wrong. And a few paragraphs later, he thinks about that government fiasco, back in the day, of trying to destroy unharnessed dragons. I think unharnessed is the same as feral, which would mean the popular conception of feral dragons was wrong from the start.That's my impression, anyway.


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## Philip Overby

I just finished Chapter 3 (I said I'm moving slowly on this one...) and am into Chapter 4 now. I have to say, I was starting to like the relationship between Laurence and Temeraire more, but the end of Chapter 3 just made me feel...I don't know the right word for it. 

Perhaps Ankari summed it up above: 



> The relationship between Laurence and Temereraire is too much. I'm trying to find a better way of describing it, so bear with me.



I'm not sure I can put my finger on what it is as of yet. Is it more like a friend relationship? Or is it like a master-pet relationship? I guess the best way to describe it is a mixture of both, which makes me just have to go along with it for the sake of the story. For some reason it kind of reminds me of like ET or something, if that makes sense?

I guess it works in that it makes their relationship more than just a rider-dragon kind of deal. 

I did like the introduction of Volly, who shows that not all dragons have the same personality, a detail I'm sure I'm going to appreciate as the book goes on.

One thing that I'm finding a bit difficult is the long chapters. I guess I'm used to using chapters as a stopping point, but I can't really do that with this one. It's not a major problem, but I do find it making it easier to put down.


----------



## Philip Overby

One other small question I'd like to bring up:

1. What do you think about the supporting cast?


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## Roan Davidson

Re the relationship between Laurence and Temeraire:  To me, it seems like an intense, interspecies bromance. And I imagine it remains a bromance throughout the series and doesn't turn into anything else, because logistics. (Although I'm sure some fanfic author somewhere has overcome that problem.)

I didn't find it a master-pet relationship--unless each party considers himself the master. I don't think Temeraire is ever wholly under Laurence's control.


----------



## Ophiucha

I love some of the minor characters we meet in Part II, Celeritas in particular.

The main developments for a potential discussion introduced this past week:

1. What do you think of the worldbuilding with regards to this as an alternate history?

2. What are your thoughts on the combat style? Compared to more standard dragon rider combat?

3. How are you feeling about the relationship between Laurence and Temeraire now that we're over half way through?

4. How awkward was that 'Temeraire has reached maturity' scene, seriously?

And as a bonus: Am I the only one whose edition of the book doesn't have a Table of Contents? I went back to see where Part II began and ended for the sake of making a few questions and just had to flip pages until I found the dividers. What's up there, Del Rey?


----------



## Steerpike

I'm way behind and going to try to get caught up this week. My main issue with the book is probably what a reader (or writer) should dread most - abject apathy. If I turned the next page to find the rest of the pages were all blank and the story never continued, I'd just shrug and grab the next book on my list.

I should be further along than I am, but I picked up Seraphina, by Rachel Hartman, for another book club, and I was pulled along right through that one. Coincidentally, it is also about dragons. It's a very interesting take on the topic, with an engaging story and characters I cared about.

I'm done with that one as of yesterday, and I'm going to try to get back to Novik this evening.


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## Philip Overby

> And as a bonus: Am I the only one whose edition of the book doesn't have a Table of Contents? I went back to see where Part II began and ended for the sake of making a few questions and just had to flip pages until I found the dividers. What's up there, Del Rey?



I'll get to your other questions once I get to that point, but the Kindle version has a table of contents. In regards to minor characters, I can't think of any that have stood out to me so far. It's kind of like the Laurence and Temeraire show, which I guess is good if you want more focus on your major characters. I haven't gotten to Celeritas yet though. 



> 1. What do you think of the worldbuilding with regards to this as an alternate history?



I can comment on this, I think. So far, I guess I'm not as into the world building as I hoped to be. The idea of an alternate history with dragons involved sounded awesome to me. As far as the dragons go, they're the main selling point. I'm looking forward to seeing more and more dragons because the different breeds and such are interesting to me. When it comes to the historical aspects, I suppose I don't know as much about the Napoleonic Wars as I thought I did. That always tends to be the case with me anyway. I think I know more about a time period than I actually do. 

That said, Novik does a great job with the dragons, which I believe are the key reason people pick up these books anyway. However, I do kind of wish Laurence and Temeraire didn't love each other so much. As was pointed out before, it feels like the ultimate bromance. I have some good guy friends myself, but I've had falling outs with them. The relationship just seems too perfect. Maybe there are some rocky roads later, but for now I'll agree with the criticism that it all feels really clean.


----------



## Ankari

> 1. What do you think of the worldbuilding with regards to this as an alternate history?



I find major faults with the worldbuilding, especially the inconsistency of logic. A dragon, a free thinking, highly intelligent being is eager to be subjected by humans. I'm sorry, such a relationship needs considerable worldbuilding to justify its existence. As soon as I saw how powerful a dragon can be, it unraveled the timeline of our world. What is presented wouldn't be with dragons in the picture.



> 2. What are your thoughts on the combat style? Compared to more standard dragon rider combat?



Novik combined airplanes and ships, gave it flesh, and free will. Bam, dragons. I do like the potential of combat, but she didn't invest enough into the battles to catch my attention.



> 3. How are you feeling about the relationship between Laurence and Temeraire now that we're over half way through?



There were a few moments where I chuckled at the awkwardness of it all. Besides that, I felt slightly sickened. Like I ate too much chocolate cake and tried to wash it away with a chocolate milk shake.



> 4. How awkward was that 'Temeraire has reached maturity' scene, seriously?



It wasn't odd until I realized Temereraire didn't feel a bit awkward by the whole ordeal. Scenes such as this make me wonder if Novik truly thought out each character. Laurence had the decency to be embarrassed, but Temereraire seemed eager for more. Had this been a cat or dog, I could understand. But this is a highly intelligent, self aware being. That made the scene (in the words of Jimmy Fallon) "Ew!"


----------



## T.Allen.Smith

I've stopped reading this one. It was okay but I have no daily desire to see what happens next. I kept telling myself if pick it up again, but I'd be forcing myself.


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## Philip Overby

I've thought about not finishing it as well, but I do that too much as it is. I plan to finish it even if I don't love it because I want to learn what other people have liked about it so I can understand different tastes in books and writing style more. I thought _Prince of Thorns_ would be pretty divisive, but this one seems to be so a bit more. 

I've learned over the years that even though some people may not like a book, that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad, it just means some people get different things from it. Even books I love, I have some criticisms. I feel kind of in the middle about this one so far, but I still like the idea of it so I'm going to continue along. It may be after March by the time I finish it, but I'll finish it nonetheless.


----------



## Ophiucha

It is a bit odd how divisive this one is, given how popular it is among general fantasy readers. Wonder what the demographics are of this website vs. the general audience? But I still like it, though I do have the benefit of knowing all future worldbuilding (the question of 'why do dragons serve humans?' is answered at some point, not sure if it's in this book though).


----------



## Philip Overby

> It is a bit odd how divisive this one is, given how popular it is among general fantasy readers. Wonder what the demographics are of this website vs. the general audience? But I still like it, though I do have the benefit of knowing all future worldbuilding (the question of 'why do dragons serve humans?' is answered at some point, not sure if it's in this book though).



The only thing that I can attest to is being used to novels with a bit more action. Not to say I read only fantasy with tons of battles in them, but I guess for a book about a war, I expected there to be more battles. I believe Ankari mentioned that the battles feel like afterthoughts, and that's all I'm getting so far. They're referred to, but not seen. I've just reached Chapter 6 and there hasn't been a battle yet. It's mostly about Laurence adjusting to being in the Corps and his relationship with Temeraire. If I'm being honest, I can't really recall the names of any people in the book besides Dayes and Granby, and that's only because he had "run-ins" with them. 

In any case, I feel like things have been sufficiently built up now, so I'm expecting some kind of major conflict to happen soon.

Hopefully, I can start in on the 3rd block by this weekend and maybe finish up the book by the time the month is out if I speed up a bit more and don't read anything else.


----------



## Gryphos

I've actually finished the book now, and I will say I am rather disappointed in the lack of battles. Maybe it's just me, but when I decide to read a book entirely based around the concept of dragons in the Napoleonic Wars, I expect a little more than two battle scenes.


----------



## Philip Overby

Gryphos said:


> I've actually finished the book now, and I will say I am rather disappointed in the lack of battles. Maybe it's just me, but when I decide to read a book entirely based around the concept of dragons in the Napoleonic Wars, I expect a little more than two battle scenes.



Dang, there's only two? Well...

That's a good topic to bring up.

*What do you think about a book about a war that only has two battles? Is this because the writer is trying to get a different perspective on war or is it to focus more on the interpersonal relationships?*


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## Ophiucha

I think it's because she's sticking to a fairly historical interpretation (aside from the dragons) of the Napoleonic Wars, and aside from 1796, which was before Britain joined the war, battles were sort of... few and far between. As they often were at the time. But between the beginning of the novel (1804?) and the end, there are only two battles that occur in the historical Napoleonic Wars. Within a day of each other, in fact.

Which could be a fault of her choice of era, but I empathize with it. I've written rigidly historical (aside from werewolves, in my case) fantasy where I had to work around the dates as they were to tell the story. It can be limiting, but I find it more satisfying than just entirely ignoring the history.


----------



## Philip Overby

Ophiucha said:


> I think it's because she's sticking to a fairly historical interpretation (aside from the dragons) of the Napoleonic Wars, and aside from 1796, which was before Britain joined the war, battles were sort of... few and far between. As they often were at the time. But between the beginning of the novel (1804?) and the end, there are only two battles that occur in the historical Napoleonic Wars. Within a day of each other, in fact.
> 
> Which could be a fault of her choice of era, but I empathize with it. I've written rigidly historical (aside from werewolves, in my case) fantasy where I had to work around the dates as they were to tell the story. It can be limiting, but I find it more satisfying than just entirely ignoring the history.



Interesting. I didn't take that into consideration. I do think these kind of books must be really awesome for history buffs. I love history, mind you, but I guess I expected more liberties to be taken with the world since there are dragons and all that. Also, maybe I'm not far enough, but it does seem kind of strange that there dragons in the world and not any other mythical creatures. Actually, maybe it isn't that strange, I guess I just kind of expect it in some way. Maybe if I think about it more, I'll find this kind of approach more interesting. 

Perhaps this is one of those books that has a certain level of expectation attached to it. People see the words "Napoleonic Wars" and "dragons" and they say, "Oh, that sounds intriguing." I admit, that's what I did. While I certainly don't hate the book, it wouldn't be the kind of book I'd normally read. I guess that's why I wanted to give it a shot, since I read a lot of dark fantasy for the most part. This is probably the lightest book I've ever read besides _The Hobbit_, but I even find it darker than this.


----------



## Steerpike

It wouldn't bother me if there were no battles in it, so long as the book was otherwise interesting to me. I don't need that kind of action to enjoy a work.


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## Philip Overby

I don't need constant action either, but it seems kind of weird to have a book about a war that follows around people in the military and there aren't many battles. Ophiucha's point makes sense, but it's no less disappointing for some who expected a bit more.

Otherwise, I'm not finding much to hang my hat on other than the relationship between Laurence and Temeraire. One part I just read had a bit of jealousy crop up when Laurence tends to another dragon. Ankari's point about the relationship being "too much" is pretty apt. The only interesting parts tend to be between the two of them, but I still find myself having a hard time letting it sink in.


----------



## Philip Overby

Still chugging along here. Sorry I haven't been able to keep up with everyone (this will be different for April since I've already started reading that book). I'm on Chapter 6 now, a little less than halfway finished. I do like how some of Laurence's doting ways are causing other dragons to want special treatment. I thought that was a nice touch. However, I'm still not really sure what is exactly happening at the moment. Are they waiting for a battle? In any case, I get that this book has conflict and such, but the tension is very low. Maybe it picks up here soon? 

Overall, I'm liking some of the interactions more and more now that some characters are getting introduced, but I'm having a hard time pinpointing what Laurence's goals are at this point. 

Anyway, not sure who's dropped out at this point, but would love to hear any more thoughts as we wrap up the book next week. 

I should be engaging a lot more in April as I'm digging the book we have planned so far: _Swordspoint_ by Ellen Kushner.


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## Philip Overby

Well, it's officially the last week of discussion. Feel free to give your final thoughts on the book (if you haven't already).


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## SM-Dreamer

Not sure I'm going to finish the book. Got sick a couple weeks ago, then played catch up on homework and overtime at work to make up for it and I honestly didn't miss the book. I don't feel any... call to pick it up again, other than to try and discuss it here. I'm thinking that's not a good thing for a book?


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## Philip Overby

I'm in the same boat. I want to finish it, but it's not going to happen this month. Maybe I'll pick it up again later down the line, but I already have too many books I'm really interested in reading.

This poses an interesting question not related to the actual book, but just books in general.

*Do you ever feel weird if you don't finish a book? Or are you perfectly fine with putting a book down and never reading it again?*

In any case, I'm enjoying our April read so far. Not the kind of book I'd read typically, but for once that's a good thing.


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## ACSmyth

I don't like putting a book aside, although I'm doing it more these days. Not that books are getting worse, just that I have less time to read than I used to, so I want to read books I want to be reading. That's another reason why I'm reading very little literary stuff these days; when it came to a time spent:enjoyment ratio, literary fiction wasn't giving me the payback that genre fiction was.

I had no problem reading this one. In fact, I enjoyed it and will probably continue the series at some point. It fell a good way short of a 5*, but it was a 4* with caveats.

PoT, on the other hand, was a real struggle for me. If I'd not been reading it for a book club, I'd almost certainly have given up. It wasn't too dark or anything; I just found it really dull, and I can't even put my finger on why. The only thing I'm coming up with is that I'm someone who does need to build that emotional connection with at least one character. It can be a side character--Perrin Aybara, and to a lesser extent, Mat Cauthon made me slog through The Wheel of Time--but any and all of the characters in PoT could have met horrible deaths and I really wouldn't have cared much.

I'm on the verge of setting a book aside right now, actually, although I'll probably go back and try again in case I'm just not in the right frame of mind for it. I normally give books a second chance before discarding them for good.


----------



## Philip Overby

> PoT, on the other hand, was a real struggle for me. If I'd not been reading it for a book club, I'd almost certainly have given up. It wasn't too dark or anything; I just found it really dull, and I can't even put my finger on why. The only thing I'm coming up with is that I'm someone who does need to build that emotional connection with at least one character. It can be a side character--Perrin Aybara, and to a lesser extent, Mat Cauthon made me slog through The Wheel of Time--but any and all of the characters in PoT could have met horrible deaths and I really wouldn't have cared much.



This is an interesting point since I think a lot of us were divided on Prince of Thorns the same way were are on His Majesty's Dragon. Your point about caring about characters is a good one. Is that always necessary for all readers? I'm not sure it is.

We talked about having an emotional connection in some way. For me, I had little to no emotional connection to Jorg or his plight. But his overall story was more interesting to me because it involved a simple motivator: revenge. Plus, I just found the writing style and world a lot more intriguing for me.

His Majesty's Dragon on the other hand feels like it's trying _too hard_ for me. It may be easier for me to gain some sort of emotional attachment, but I could never get there because it felt too perfect and sweet. Maybe that's the backlash of reading "gritty" fiction, but I don't think that's the case. I'm a huge fan of the movie Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, I get emotional watching A Christmas Story, and when one event (spoiler) happened in The Green Mile, I actually felt really upset. This doesn't mean I lack emotion when reading, it's just some writers pull the emotion out slowly throughout the course of the story. Some stories tug on my heart-strings, while others don't.

Some people said they quit this one or didn't like it because of the actual writing. I guess if I thought about it more, that might be an issue I have. But the overall issue I had the most was little to no conflict with any sort of consequences. I need that in stories. If I don't feel a relationship is ever in danger or everything is just working out too neatly, I can't stick with it.

There is a slight conflict with Laurence's father that kind of felt like an afterthought to me. There was Laurence's issues with the way others were treating their dragons that rang a bit truer. But I guess the love-fest between Laurence and Temeraire just became too much. The only time Temeraire seemed in danger of getting turned over to someone else (Dayes I think his name was), it was over in a couple of pages. 



> I'm on the verge of setting a book aside right now, actually, although I'll probably go back and try again in case I'm just not in the right frame of mind for it. I normally give books a second chance before discarding them for good.



I'll probably do the same (give it another chance) at some point. I just get sick of putting aside so many books, especially when I have high hopes for them. For this group, I know of three people (including myself) who didn't finish it. I think the only reason they were trying to finish it was due to it being part of the reading group.

So, yes, there are parts of this book I like a lot (anything to do with dragons, honestly), and maybe the later books have a lot more going on. This felt like too slow of a burn for me to get fully invested in. I liked Laurence and Temeraire at first, but it started to become...I don't even know what to call it. I'd like to give it a go at a later date when I have less going on and more patience, but this one's going to have to go in the "On Hold" pile as much as I tried to get into it. Perhaps I'm not the target audience, who knows?


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## ACSmyth

The writing style didn't bother me at all. At least, I didn't really notice it, so that comes to the same thing.

The thing that I'm wondering is whether in fantasy we've got so used to the "epicness" that smaller odds are harder to accept. I actually quite enjoyed that the stakes were fairly low in this one. Yes, there was the France vs England thing, but it was really a fish out of water story. It was Laurence being taken from his safe, familiar environment, and being put into a situation where the other people around him had pretty much grown up in this other ethos. If that remains the driver for the rest of the series it will get old very quickly, so I'm hoping we see some raising of the stakes, but I was OK with it for starters. When I got to the half-way point and the stakes weren't multiplying, I relaxed into it, accepting that it was a low-stakes story, and that that was all right.

So much of fantasy is saving the world, cities falling, armies battling, people being slaughtered by the thousand, that I actually found a more domestic, narrow scope quite a palate cleanser. And yes, it maybe is a different corner of the market.

I'm thinking of things like romance, where the stakes are whether person A and person B will get together. There is a huge market for books like that. I personally find them repetitive, but then that's often levelled at fantasy, too. (Not another "the Dark Lord is going to take over the world story") So this in a way is a (b)romance. Will Laurence and Temeraire be allowed to continue as a unit, what pressures will they come under to have the relationship dissolved, and how will other external relationships impact on it?


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## Philip Overby

I'm actually shifting more towards personal stories myself. I'm not concerned with stories being epic, although I like those kind of stories now and again. I'm reading Swordspoint by Ellen Kushner now for our April read, and it's a pretty low stakes story based in one city with a small cast of characters. From what I understand, there is no global conflict or thousands of people getting massacred or anything like that. I really like it so far. So I don't think my problem with His Majesty's Dragon is that it's low stake. It's just that these specific low stakes aren't very compelling to me. It may have to do with execution or something else, but I guess sometimes a book clicks with you and other times it doesn't.

Swordspoint (although I may be missing something?) basically involves a city where you can hire swordsman to fight for you. They follow you around and take care of your "lightweights" so to speak. This idea was intriguing to me from the get go. The idea of dragons involved in the Napoleonic War felt the same to me. That's why I both nominated and voted for this book. However, something didn't click early on and I held out hope that I'd get over it and that I could deal with it. 

So I'd probably say I'm part of a camp of readers (and writers perhaps) that is slowly shifting away from epic stories to some extent. I still want to read them, but I'm not dead set on reading something with huge stakes, epic battles, etc. However, if I think I'm going to be reading a story about war, my expectations are set differently I suppose.


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## ACSmyth

Hmmm. You can have a story where there's a wartime setting without it explicitly being "about" war, though. Casablanca springs to mind here.

I wasn't going to read Swordspoint, since it's not available for Kindle here (UK). I'm thinking maybe I should snag a dead tree copy, though, just to see if we get a hat-trick of books we disagree about LOL.


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## Philip Overby

Yeah, I agree on that point. I'm pretty sure Gone with the Wind was like that as well, but never got around to reading that one. I guess when I read fantasy though, I do expect a certain amount of physical conflict if it's about a war. I'm sure that happens in this book, I just never got to it.

Swordspoint may not be up some people's alley, I'll admit, though I find it to be pretty interesting so far. One thing I do like about this reading group is that we have such varied opinions. It's heartening for me as a writer because it hammers home the fact that even if people like my writing, there will always be people who don't like it for another reason. That's just the way things go.

However, it would be nice to agree on one book, wouldn't it?


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## Ophiucha

My final thoughts on re-reading the first book after many years since I last did.

_His Majesty's Dragon_ is just such a comfortable read for me. It's a fish out of water story with some of my favourite dragons in modern fantasy literature, with a cute friendship to follow and a setting I've always had a soft spot for. I find the combat, when it shows up, to be interesting and something a little new for the genre, and I like the characters who are around enough to get histories and personalities. Particularly Jane Roland.

I've never been a fan of action anyway, and as a history nerd, I adore her dedication to the history of the war in these early books. It deviates later in the series, but I do like these early books better. Her writing isn't stunning save for a few great lines and a way with describing the movements of the dragons, but it honestly isn't bad either. Her Austenisms are a little awkward at times, but she's consistent at least. Better than some books I've read recently.

And for those curious, but not curious enough to read the later books, a note on why the dragons serve humans:



Spoiler: temeraire spoilers



Dragons are not so powerful that humans cannot fight them. Europe basically controls the race, which is why their numbers are lesser in Europe than in other parts of the world. Temeraire comments that this borders on slavery, which Laurence hadn't considered but does acknowledge is kind of true. In the Aztec part of the world, the dragons basically control humans although the relationship is mutually beneficial (this is how the Aztecs avoided being colonized in this world). In China, humans and dragons are equal and pretty much have the same rights.


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