# How do you feel about borrowed names?



## Androxine Vortex (Jun 22, 2012)

Many times when I read, I notice that some of the characters' names were actual names from our world. For example, let's say there was a religious organization. It's members' names would be directly taken from different religions (especially Christianity : Abaddon, Ezekiel, etc.) How do you feel about this?

I personally don't like it. When I create names, I might use real names as an example or reference on how names sounded and then build off of them, not taking them directly. To me it seems very lazy and uncreative. The author had an opportunity to be creative but chose to just Ctrl C, Ctrl V. I think the only time I came close to exactly copying a name was when I created a name, but then found out that it was the name of an old Persian God. So I just changed two letters in it.


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## SlimShady (Jun 22, 2012)

Doesn't really bother me too much.  Abaddon just sounds badass and I even thought about using Ezekiel.  (For the record the characters would refer to him as Zek.)  I understand how hard it is coming up with names and if your against using names like that then you're against names like Richard, George, Martin, etc.  So basically your saying we shouldn't use real life names at all and just make every single one of them up?  That would be a tad bit too jarring for me.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jun 22, 2012)

SlimShady said:


> Doesn't really bother me too much.  Abaddon just sounds badass and I even thought about using Ezekiel.  (For the record the characters would refer to him as Zek.)  I understand how hard it is coming up with names and if your against using names like that then you're against names like Richard, George, Martin, etc.  So basically your saying we shouldn't use real life names at all and just make every single one of them up?  That would be a tad bit too jarring for me.



I actually do invent all of my names haha. Tolkien did that too. Not sure if every single name he used he invented but I can safely say he invented a large majority of them


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## SlimShady (Jun 22, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> I actually do invent all of my names haha.


 
  Interesting.  You must have a lot of creativity, but for me I find that made up names are hit and miss.  Some will sound good, while a lot will just be to fantastical or just too stupid.


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## gavintonks (Jun 22, 2012)

whats in a name - everything - so all Davids must now stop calling themselves David because there was a religious David? does not make sense, same as Nazgul its not a Tolkein word it is a name of a shadow entity from mythologye


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## Amanita (Jun 22, 2012)

I don't mind the use of real-world names but I don't like it too much if there's some obvious real world reference. Characters named "Zeus" or "Shiva" used for no reason would bother me and I'm also trying to avoid all names with real-world religious meanings in my made-up worlds.


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## Alex97 (Jun 22, 2012)

I don't mind if real world names are used as long as they fit in well and aren't really obvious.


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## ProfessorBrainfever (Jun 22, 2012)

As is the answer to most things like this: it depends.

My NIP has all sorts of borrowed names...but it's an alternate history piece. So where I borrow my names I'm also borrowing those people from actual history.

I find when you borrow a name and it's too 'on the nose', it can be annoying. But only if used in excess.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 22, 2012)

I think I'd probably seriously dislike a piece that made up all the names.  For me, trying to figure out how to pronounce a bunch of unnatural sounding names is too distracting.  

I'm the complete opposite of the OP.


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## Lawfire (Jun 22, 2012)

I have often thought that a "name pronunciation guide" as an appendix (or something) would be a nice addition to many fantasy novels.

I like a majority of names to be made up, but at the same time, what are the odds that some would not line up closely (or exactly) with "real" names?


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## Twook00 (Jun 22, 2012)

While it doesn't bother me, I have to say that all of my favorite characters had original names (to my knowledge, at least).


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## Saigonnus (Jun 22, 2012)

While I often got annoyed by most of the RPGs using the same stuff for "spells" (i.e. Leviathan, Shiva, Bahamut etc.) finding "new" names for characters is often difficult if not impossible. More than likely SOME author at SOME point in the last 500 years has used that name for a character (even if you think it's new). I say just let it go and just try to think of a name that suits the character... something that isn't too weighted down and difficult to read. Sure, you could have an Orcish shaman named Ish'ur'tala'kel but why bother when he could easily be Gudlaug (good log)...


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## Androxine Vortex (Jun 22, 2012)

gavintonks said:


> whats in a name - everything - so all Davids must now stop calling themselves David because there was a religious David? does not make sense, same as Nazgul its not a Tolkein word it is a name of a shadow entity from mythologye



Well I think it is kind of lazy to just say, "My character is a religious character. Let's copy a name out from history that has to do with religion and use it in my story." Most of the time if it is done once, then the author will likely copy other names. I'm not saying you can't name your character David, but I think it would be a bad move for you to name a character Zeus unless the character you are writting about is in fact Zeus. I'm just very tired of reading about characters with the names I listed above. 

Sometimes it I can tolerate it though. Like your Nazgul example. I'm trying not to sound hypocritical though. I suppose if a name has to be copied, try to make it a little more obscure and not a more reknown one. I also don't mind if names come from words that relate to a character or place. Again, the Nazgul example. 



BWFoster78 said:


> I think I'd probably seriously dislike a piece that made up all the names.  For me, trying to figure out how to pronounce a bunch of unnatural sounding names is too distracting.
> 
> I'm the complete opposite of the OP.



I know what you mean and I don't want my readers to become flustered with trying to pronounce bizzare names. I don't go over the top and try to make them easy and not too complex.

Amanita also has a good point.

As I said before, I invent all of my names. If I want my culture to have Russian feel to them, then I would look at different Russian names and learn the language a little bit. I learn the prefixes, the suffixes, and any little bits of info I can. I might even take a real name and change it around a little bit. Or if my character is evil and sneaky I might find Russian words that mean evil and sneaky and change them around a bit to sound more like a name.

I love it when authors use their own imaginated names. It really allows you to become creative. I believe you limit yourself by relying on things that have already been made. And as an author, you should be trying to write new stories, with new places, and new characters. What's the fun in writting a story where you are taking direct names from other stories? I think we would get tired of it if every story there was a David.

(No offense to anyone named David, I'm just using gavintonks's example)


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 22, 2012)

> Sometimes it I can tolerate it though. Like your Nazgul example. I'm trying not to sound hypocritical though. I suppose if a name has to be copied, try to make it a little more obscure and not a more reknown one. I also don't mind if names come from words that relate to a character or place. Again, the Nazgul example.



I just don't see the bad with "borrowing" names.  Maybe I'm not understanding your point.

I'd rather read about fantasy characters named Joe and Bob than Algotrah and Belxoru.  Is that what you're talking about?


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## Bear (Jun 23, 2012)

I enjoy naming characters. In my last book I never really used a proper name as the characters are as follows: Bear, Bird, Fox, Old Hat, John Dullman, John Brightman, Elder, and worker. I don't like to borrow names. Not that character names are all that original but there is a reason why I did that.

I'm thinking of writing a novel in space and the character names will be weird. Most likely chopped off sir names and vowels.

Bear- character adorns a helmet similar to the head of a grizzly bear. The character is very strong and large.

Bird- character adorns a helmet similar to a bird. The  female character is very elegant and thin.

Fox- character adorns a helmet similar to a fox. The character is a very sexual woman and deceitful. 

Old Hat- an old guy in a wheel chair. Truth- a rip at Stephen King after he got hit by a van.

Elder- and old dude

Worker- a worker.

John Dullman- a dull man

John Brightman- a bright man


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## ethgania (Jun 23, 2012)

I'm a nut for linguistics so I try to develop at least some sort of system for naming my characters... My stories have some overlap with this world in their lore (think shifting and sometimes overlapping realities?), so I can at least use that as an excuse for abusing baby name dictionaries and mushing words together.


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## John McDonell (Jun 23, 2012)

I found it slightly odd when Goodkind used 'Richard' as his main character while most of his other characters had invented names.  I try to invent all of my names, places, people, monsters.  It is tough though to come up with something that sounds like an actual name that isn't and actual name somewhere, in some language.  I am ok with that.  If Hent sounds like a fantasy name but it's actually Swedish (I have no idea if it is or not, just throwing it out there), so be it.  I'll use it.  I was shocked to discover that my fantasy world and Teddy Ruxpin's world both shared the same name - Rillonia.  I let Teddy keep it and changed mine to Rhillonia.  I may have to invent a  new race of teddy bear goblins or something now


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## Androxine Vortex (Jun 23, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> I just don't see the bad with "borrowing" names.  Maybe I'm not understanding your point.
> 
> I'd rather read about fantasy characters named Joe and Bob than Algotrah and Belxoru.  Is that what you're talking about?



Here's my point:

Let's say I am writting a story about warriors and I need a name for their leader. So I take the name Ares from Greek Myth meaning God of War and name my character Ares. Even though my character is not the same Ares from Greek myth. That's my problem. I see all too often authors taking names from other stories and putting them in their own. And of course I try to not make my names ridiculous. And I personally wouldn't even use the names Joe or Bob either. When I write fantasy unless the world is set in our modern day society or world we know today, then I don't use any real names and invent all of them. I'm trying to create a different world, why not have different names.

I'm really surprised as to how many of you are against inventing your own names. Do you come up with any original names for your characters? I would like to know how you go about naming yours.


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## Will (Jun 23, 2012)

I find it very odd when reading a book, the names will be like... Arden, Rand, Bast, Tywin, etc, then randomly just have a name like Frank in the middle of all of those. Makes me lol. I don't mind the religious/mythical name borrowing so much.


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## Chime85 (Jun 23, 2012)

For my writing, I prefer to think of original names for at least most of my characters. Of course, you will get a Samuel once in a while and that's fine by me. What I often dislike is (as exampled above) you get names like Satan but there is no Christianity in the world. Of course, if there are particular "real world" religions in your story, then go ahead.


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## Eeirail (Jun 23, 2012)

I have used names Such as Azazel, which is an angels name, but I used it simply because I think it fit it's persona being a beast of fire and all. But in context as just using it because, I do not like, I do not like it with names or races in books and such. So I undertand what you mean almost one-hundred percent.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jun 23, 2012)

Eeirail said:


> I have used names Such as Azazel, which is an angels name, but I used it simply because I think it fit it's persona being a beast of fire and all. But in context as just using it because, I do not like, I do not like it with names or races in books and such. So I undertand what you mean almost one-hundred percent.



Yeah like I can understand if you are writting about a race and call them elves or orcs or dwarves. That doesn't bother me. I just hate borrowing actual names from other stories or mythologies. Sometimes I can tolerate it like if the name you are borrowing is a translation of another word in a different language rather than stealing an actual name to fit your character's personality. Not to jab at your comment but Azazel is another example of an over-used name. I don't know I guess to me it gets old. New characters with same names.


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## Saigonnus (Jun 23, 2012)

There is always the option of taking a classic name like Azazel and mixing it up a bit, change a letter or two, add others. 

Zaazel
Arakel
Parzel
Armel

Also consider taking two names and mixing them together as I have done for gaming campaigns many times. 

Azazel & Bahamut = Azamut or Bahamel

You get the idea, and at the same time maybe create something more suitable for the characters. I used to have a PINK baby naming book (insert laugh here) but found it exceptionally useful for finding characters names by culture. Many of the demihumans (orcs, dwarves etc) often used names from slavic or native american origins and the regular humans had more traditional names if I couldn't think of something original. Elves often had names reminiscent of irish/welsh/scottish with the exception of surnames (one that comes to mind is Jhovannen Elmach from the Isle of Eronach)


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 23, 2012)

I think that I have a philosophical difference with the OP.

I hope that I won't be stoned for heresy for saying this, but I want my fantasy world to be as close as possible to our real one.  Most readers are going to assume that the rules of physics, days of the week, etc. are the same unless I tell them otherwise.  Unless it's important to my story, I don't feel any reason to make all this new and go into detail about it.

Naming characters with common English names is a part of that.  I think it's easier for a reader to identify with Joe than with Aljoads'j.

Another problem I have with making up names:

You've made up your entire world right?  Created it from scratch?  I suppose then, that your characters aren't really speaking English.  The writer is automatically translating their speech.  Why isn't he translating their names too?  Makes it a lot easier to read.


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## Saigonnus (Jun 23, 2012)

BWFoster78 said:


> You've made up your entire world right?  Created it from scratch?  I suppose then, that your characters aren't really speaking English.  The writer is automatically translating their speech.  Why isn't he translating their names too?  Makes it a lot easier to read.



Well, I think you don't give the readers enough credit... but I disagree most heartily with your reason; though I respect your opinion. I think it is mostly because "Joe from the Black Forest" doesn't have the same ring to it as "Aljoads D'Aldren or Aljoads of Aldren) I myself prefer the character to have the local flavor. Maybe the writer IS translating the name to English... maybe Aljoads in English is Alh'Johadnus'reun in the native tongue...


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## Ireth (Jun 23, 2012)

Most of my works either take place in the real world (with or without fantastical creatures such as vampires) or in mythological places such as Faerie. Thus I use names that are perfectly normal (Vincent, Ariel, Dominic) and/or mythological (Madoc Morfryn, Finvarra, Meabh). Admittedly, not all of the mythological names I use correspond to the characters in the myths themselves, with the exception of the two Kings of Faerie, but I don't think too many people will care that much. I haven't written a story with a completely original world in quite a long time, after my last attempt flopped. I might try again, though.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 23, 2012)

I just want to put in my two cents about translating names.  Have you ever watched bilingual people talk and mention someone else?  their name is pronounced as their name by the bilingual person.  If that doesn't make sense, I'll illustrate. 

When I pick up the phone, and realize it's my aunt (Who speaks German) calling for my mother (bilingual in German and English), I quickly switch to German and answer, "Oh Hallo, hier ist Anita (in a German accent, because it's my name). 

Then I hand over the phone, and my mom would speak.  From then on, when she used someone else's name, it was pronounced in English, not how German people would say the name.

Now I don't know whether that is an etiquette thing, but many times in my life I have watched this exact scene play out with people who speak English names in their various languages.  The English-speaking bilingual person has no accent when they pronounce the English name.

So anyways, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility to use a "foreign/ fantasy" name and expect a reader to translate it.  

That being said, I like names I can easily pronounce, and that's not to call anyone stupid, but me personally, I know a lot about names and how they are pronounced in their native languages, but I am not sure most readers would think  to do it.  I could be wrong.

So in my WIP, I have several names which I'm not sure people will pronounce right, but I'm not sure I care, as long as they like the characters.  Here are some:

Rafe (_Rayf_), Marcello (_Mar_-_*chel*-lo_), Lazaro (_Lah-*tsar*-ro_), Zanchi (*Tsahn*-_chi_).  Like I said, I have my doubts, but don't really care.  If they are pronounced in normal English, nothing is lost, they're not hard to read nor do they require any sort of explanation to decode.  

I like unusual names, and applaud authors' efforts to include an element of uniqueness.  None of the names above are unique, the first is old German and the following are all 16th century Venetian.  But, sometimes I think too-common names bespeak unimportant characters, and I want a reader to know who my characters are and give them a unique identity.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jun 24, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> I'm trying to create a different world, why not have different names.



Because the invented world still resembles ours in a lot of ways. It probably contains humans, families, nations, religious groups, and many other things we see in our world. Just because it's a fictional world doesn't mean it can't be based on real Earth cultures, or use names we're familiar with, and it doesn't mean the author is "lazy" just because they use names that also exist in the real world.


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## studentofrhythm (Jun 24, 2012)

Chime85 said:


> What I often dislike is (as exampled above) you get names like Satan but there is no Christianity in the world.



Like Steerpike's monkey in _Gormenghast_?  

Actually I think that's a great name for a monkey.  A lot of wonderful character names in that book.


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## studentofrhythm (Jun 24, 2012)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> Just because it's a fictional world doesn't mean it can't be based on real Earth cultures, or use names we're familiar with, and it doesn't mean the author is "lazy" just because they use names that also exist in the real world.



The author is certainly turning away from a task that might be needful sometimes.  But such an author can duck charges of laziness as long as there's a big enough group of readers that don't demand or expect authors to understand more about how names and languages work, partly because not enough of the readers understand that much themselves.

I think the least a fantasy author could do is to set out clearly at the outset whether:

*this is a setting where everyone happens to speak English and/or factual Earth languages; or languages very close.  Which is fine - very interesting, in fact, because it opens the door for reading in a meta-narrative of convergent evolution throughout parallel universes

or

*the characters in this setting speak languages that are _not_ like ours, and then the author should consider herself as a translator as much as a composer of a story - _even if she has very little idea about what her world's language is like_.  Just knowing whether it has a writing system and what kind should help.  And you still could decide to put in factual names, or tweaked variants thereof, as long as you did it with the attitude of translating or calquing.  In other words, if this character lived in the United States, he would be named whatever.

Or if this character lived in Turkey or Cambodia, she would have names that English-speaking readers might still object to as being too weird or hard to pronounce.  Oh dear.


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## Saigonnus (Jun 24, 2012)

Caged Maiden said:


> I just want to put in my two cents about translating names.  Have you ever watched bilingual people talk and mention someone else?  their name is pronounced as their name by the bilingual person.  If that doesn't make sense, I'll illustrate.



The same thing happens in Spanish as well. Most proper names (places, people, name brands etc.) are generally pronounced in the native tongue not translated to Spanish. There are a few exceprions that I noticed; like the names of songs, movies or particular products within a company are often translated into Spanish and others like Colgate is spelled the same but pronounced differently. Instead of "Kol-gayt" they pronounce it "Kol-Gah-Teh" but that has been that way since they came to Mexico in the 70s or 80s so it has almost become a custom.


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## ALB2012 (Jun 24, 2012)

Fantasy is generally based on a Pseudo -local world. Japanese fantasy is pseudo japan, European fantasy is pseudo Europe as it were.
People have ideas - English/European sounding names envoke certain images- Unless you are Monty Python your enchanter lord is unilkely to be called Tim, or Peter or whatever. He or she will have some strange or weird name- Khazak, Archos, Merlin, Gandalf whatever. Your peasants might have normal names,- Bob, Stefan, Edward, Peter, Thomas- nice solid familiar name. 

Rightly or wrongly an image appears with certain names and certain ideas produce images. Often people like what is familiar, even in fantasy. 
Example- Bazgog-what does that conjure up? A demon, an orc warrior, a small blonde child with a lollipop?

I use a mix of made up names and "real names" depending on what I like and what fits- I am also rubbish at thinking of names. I try to give the forest elves more unusual made up names which are to some extent regional, the urban elves have a mix or human sounding and elvish names and the humans have more familiar human names- sometimes direct names like Freddy,Simon or Thomas and sometimes oddly spelled versions such as Eadgar. I am really not that concerned that some tavernkeep who appears in one scene hasn't got a complex made up name.

If a reader is focusing so much on names they are missing the story or the story isn't keeping them hooked in what does that say?


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## Alva (Jun 24, 2012)

Well, I must admit I prefer made up names over “real” ones, but on the other hand I do understand the people who find coming up with new (and more or less) unique names troublesome. The thing that matters to me while I read is whether the world in the story feels convincing to me or not. A single clearly identifiable "real" name among a horde of imaginary names leaves me unconvinced (if not otherwise explained). But maybe even more so does a horde of imaginary names that sound like being borrowed from other fantasy or science fiction works. So, although I tend to find the use of real world names and especially the English ones a bit dulling at times, as long as the story is well written I may shut my eyes the best I can.

In any case I must admit names such as "Ezekiel" or "Azazel" really turn me off. They flow nicely on my tongue but they've been used so many times over and in so many different places and contexts. They simply carry too many meanings to me, perhaps. Without any other reason than their look or sound I wouldn't end up using them as they are.



ALB2012 said:


> People have ideas - English/European sounding names envoke certain images- Unless you are Monty Python your enchanter lord is unilkely to be called Tim, or Peter or whatever. He or she will have some strange or weird name- Khazak, Archos, Merlin, Gandalf whatever. Your peasants might have normal names,- Bob, Stefan, Edward, Peter, Thomas- nice solid familiar name.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly an image appears with certain names and certain ideas produce images. Often people like what is familiar, even in fantasy.
> Example- Bazgog-what does that conjure up? A demon, an orc warrior, a small blonde child with a lollipop?



Hrrm. "Normal" is a difficult term. Those names may be familiar to English speaking world, but for instance I am from Finland. English isn't my native language even though I've studied it for years and use it on a daily basis. I'm saying that the catch phrase "normal, easy and familiar" lacks some of its point. If the story isn't situated in the English speaking world, why to attempt to reason the use of English names? Simple names such as "Bob" may do depending on the context (although I'd be doubting) for they could be abbreviations(?) But what about more complex names like "Nathaniel"?

When I was learning to read (in my native language) I read some books with a character named "George". “George” sounded like a fantasy name to me at that time and to tell the truth, I had no faintest idea how to pronounce it as I had not studied a single word of English by then. It was like a fantasy name to me but it was part of the culture of the book so I gladly accepted it. Actually it felt intriguing to me and a bit fantastical, even though the book itself wasn’t even a work of fantasy.

(And by the way, concerning on translating foreign names. Some old English names may be quite easily translated into Finnish. For instance "George" in Finnish could be translated into "YrjÃ¶" granted by the old tradition. Now I'm asking: do they convey the same meaning? Because to me the simple answer is as follows: not at all. They sound different and they refer far too different cultural contexts to be truly interchangeable. If somebody called (pardon me my real life examples) George Bush by names such as “YrjÃ¶ Pensas” it wouldn't be considered politically correct even though, seemingly, his name can be translated into fluent Finnish language. Into foreign language. Usually only in the case of certain historical characters such as English monarchs like "George VI" the tradition is still in use. One can even find Wikipedia articles on "YrjÃ¶ III", "YrjÃ¶ V" and "YrjÃ¶ VI".)


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## Alva (Jun 24, 2012)

And I forgot, about the "Bazgog" ALB2012 mentioned above. I don't really like "Bazgog" as a word, the immediate feeling it gives me is that it carries no meaning, no history. It sounds like a made up name as it is, lacking its context.

Part of the reason to come up with new names is that the beholder of the name is given an opportunity to define the name. Give it a meaning. As long as the character is truly him/her/itself and full, it doesn't matter what the initial impression on the name is. More than the name itself and the problem whether the name defines the carrier properly or not, I'd question who gave him/her/it that name. His/her parents, friends, boss, colleagues, s/he him/herself perhaps? Linguistics is one matter but words belong to the people who use them and who have the history of using them. The name can mean anything but the important and interesting part is the relationship between the person and the name.


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## Saigonnus (Jun 24, 2012)

"Though he is old enough at nine winters to know he hates his name; Bazgog dismisses it as he goes about his daily chores. His father's name had been Bazgog as well, some vague reference to a great leader from an earlier time; before the time of troubles and he'd been given that name as a way of honoring the man that had served his lord faithfully; had died honoring his lord in fact, leaving him without a father."

I personally don't like the name Bazgog either, seems too contrived in this instance but ANY name can be given history within a story to make it believable and doesn't have to have that "real world" history at all. I do think the best characters in literature (Rand Al'Thor, Aragorn son of Arathorn, Drizzt Do'Urden) have names that fit them or perhaps the name came first and the story written about them but whatever the case may be, most likely alot of thought went into the names.


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## Alva (Jun 24, 2012)

Saigonnus said:


> ANY name can be given history within a story to make it believable and doesn't have to have that "real world" history at all.



I agree. I hope I wasn't being too vague, but that was my point as well. Any name can be given a history and a meaning. Even in real life, not only in fiction or fantasy, although a name regarded as typical in given culture usually imply more established impressions to the natives than some foreign or made up names. (Not always a positive thing.)

To me, it is the character that matters. The name comes third (although a cluster of names fighting against my tastes may turn my attention to some other book on my reading list. Or even to a different writer...) The second on the list comes the flow of the story. An out of place name left unexplained within any given story has the potential of breaking the delicate illusion of credibility. But well, it all depends on the story and how it’s being told.



Saigonnus said:


> I do think the best characters in literature (Rand Al'Thor, Aragorn son of Arathorn, Drizzt Do'Urden) have names that fit them or perhaps the name came first and the story written about them but whatever the case may be, most likely alot of thought went into the names.



Well, I think we share different likes in names. "Drizzt Do'Urden" turns me off, to be honest, although I know people who adore the character in question. I hope you don’t get me wrong. In Tolkien's case I liked the sound of names such as "Samvais Gamgi" or even “Frodo” (although I disliked Frodo’s character). “Aragorn” was nice, but then I’ve seen so many writers use a similar pattern of naming that it has lost some of its original glory.

My favourite name giver so far is Le Guin. I’ve loved her books and characters and, yes, names for years now. Reading her books is painful, though. Every once I a while I tend to get this nearly irresistible urge to steal some of her words.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 24, 2012)

also regarding naming things, euphonic sounds are important.  When you select harsh sounds like Bazgog, you can use it to imply a harsher character.  Now I'm not expert, and certainly there exceptions to that (the word syphilis comes to mind) where a perfectly pleasant sounding name is given to something unpleasant, but in most stories I've read, the antagonist has a name using "harsher" letter sounds.


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## studentofrhythm (Jun 25, 2012)

I want to read more about our young friend Bazgog.

I just googled "Bazgog" and found out there's a Bazgo village and Buddhist monastery in Kashmir, and a Nimo Bazgo Power Project on the Indus river.  Not an exact match, but it supports Alva's point (at least as I understand it).  If there's a good reason behind the name that you can show in a convincing manner, you have every right to expect your readers to put up with all manner of violations of their native phonotactics or phonoaesthetics.

Maiden, euphony is arbitrary.  What speakers of one language find harsh sounding others don't.  I remember how surprised I was when I found out that Hebrew has guttural sounds.  How could that be: the holy language with harsh sounds?

This is one thing where I think it's too bad that by staying in our comfort zone we Anglo-American readers and writers perpetuate narrow ethnocentric thinking.


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## gavintonks (Jun 25, 2012)

Everyone is entitled to an opinion of course and if it float your boat good for you, but it is also naive to take it to the point of prejudice and then say it is a bad thing to do for every writer. Fantasy is based on Lore and mythology which is thousands of years old, now one person feels he must spend hours changing 2 letters I honestly do not think readers care and a good or brilliant story. I for one usually do not even bother to read names as half of them are unpronounceable and I do not buy a book for lessons in name pronunciation, and then keep it in order to find names to call my animals.

Writing a good or brilliant story is the objective all these things are just a nice to have, but subjectively it is in the hands of the author to decide. The other issue of course is who is buying if 20 000 readers who wish buy the book say otherwise then I would listen.

Internet is about information and people like to google and check things so your new names come up with a blank instead of a history that adds layers to your book and the mythology behind it. I would rate the names about 150th in the list of prioritizes in a good well written story


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## Alva (Jun 25, 2012)

studentofrhythm said:


> If there's a good reason behind the name that you can show in a convincing manner, you have every right to expect your readers to put up with all manner of violations of their native phonotactics or phonoaesthetics.



Yes. That is what I mean. Thank you for the term "native phonoaesthetics", by the way. : )



gavintonks said:


> Internet is about information and people like to google and check things so your new names come up with a blank instead of a history that adds layers to your book and the mythology behind it.



As you said, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect yours. After all, I even don’t know what kind of fantasy you write! Nonetheless, there are many different readers (and writers). Without any prior positive feedback on a work of fiction, the language does matter a great deal to me. If the surroundings in the book support the names, there is no problem. If the story is present in an alternative history or takes place in Middle Ages/ renaissance/ future (of Earth) etc., I’d be greatly surprised if there weren’t any already clearly identifiable existing names or variations of them.

Only the presupposition that a name doesn’t suggest any history if it is not familiar to the audience, is odd one to me, personally. I enjoy reading well written fantasy and whenever the fantasy is truly well written, it gives me this feeling of great deal of depth - partly in the form of existing but largely unknown history of its own. In many fantasy stories the reader is but a foreigner, an immigrant, to the world and the cultures there. Why would an immigrant be expecting/expected to understand any deeper meanings concerning on the new world immediately, or even after having Googled (our) Internet for help? Shouldn't such information be attained through learning and time = in this case, through reading.



gavintonks said:


> I would rate the names about 150th in the list of prioritizes in a good well written story



I understand your point but don’t see why it should have to be that way. Names are details, yes, but details add to the feeling of refinement and believability. Often names also work as a meaningful link between our “real” world and the world of the characters. The phonotactics and phonoaesthetics used (thank you @studentofrhythm) usually are there to tell something about the culture the character lives in or at least has been living in:

How does their language sound (or possibly look, even when written with clumsy Latin alphabets)? Do they prefer some specific nickname over the given one and why? If the name is for instance translated into familiar noun or adjective, does the meaning somehow contradict, highlight or emphasize with the personality of the character? Names can be used as hints of larger structures (linguistical/social/historical etc.).

It is the writer’s job to grant the name with a history and hidden meanings of its own. This said I emphasize that it depends on the story and the writer what kinds of names they prefer to use.

(And also point out that the tastes of the readers and writers are varied, and variation is a positive thing.)


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## SeverinR (Jun 26, 2012)

Names should reflect their place in the story.

I use period human names for humans in my stories.  Even mixed cultures can have mixed names, an elf by the name of Bob, would be strange, but it could happen. We name babies after special people, and sometimes those people are from a different culture.

Modern names used in old worlds would be wrong, and would seem lazy.
Just as names for other races using all human names would be wrong. Look at the various ethnic names of the world. Hispanic, African, the various oriental names all have unique names, so imo all different races and cultures would have different names.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jun 28, 2012)

I agree that everyone has their own opinion. In no way am I suggesting that my preffered style is the only way to write. It's just a preference. Like it has been said before in this thread, some names fit while others don't. I think that Legolas is a good name for an elf character rather than William. 

Let me give you an example from a novel I am working on now: I have a demon (haven't decided on a name yet) who personifies lust, desire, etc. He has a city dedicated to his worship and I named that city Modos. I based the city off Sodom and just changed the name around. So I don't have a problem with taking a word and altering it but I dislike just taking the word in it's entirety; I wouldn't actually name it "Sodom." Most of the names I use, whether they be for people or places, are derived from other words.

Modos -> word derived from city of Sodom = 
Sodom -> word taken directly from Sodom = 

But still, I am not so stuck up that I wouldn't read a story that had borrowed names in it. Names alone do not make up a good story. Like I said, it's just preferences.

EDIT: And yeah sometimes just writting a name backwords is a little lame but I do that only rarely.


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## Alva (Jun 28, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> But still, I am not so stuck up that I wouldn't read a story that had borrowed names in it. Names alone do not make up a good story. Like I said, it's just preferences.




I may be stuck up enough to leave a book unread, but even then the major question usually is “entirety”. I can't remember a book I’d have left _unconsidered_ just because of the use of names. Instead, negative first impression, the lack of imagery, unconvincing characters and uninteresting language _combined with_  lazy or downright annoying names... this makes me turn away from a book.

(Or not. I've completed numerous books I still dislike gravely. And others I ended up liking although they demanded serious work to reach that point.)

And even if I leave a book unfinished after reading it halfway through (or usually sooner than that) it doesn't mean that I would never turn back to it. My interests change and alter. Often times while looking for new stories I have some specific criteria or particular case of interest in mind. (May it be old ships or the use of first person narrative or... penguin protagonists, whatever.) I love reading but I'm also quite a picky reader at best, and it's not necessarily the writer's "fault”.

And then there are times I simply make a random choice and play for it.




Androxine Vortex said:


> EDIT: And yeah someti-mes just writting a name backwords is a little lame but I do that only rarely.



I remember reading somewhere that Le Guin, as well, has done that occasionally. Although, if my memory serves me right, her source of inspiration came from traffic signs and such. So, in other words, she used words that (necessarily) had nothing to do with the world or the story she was writing about... (And she might have used only parts of the words. Hmm.)

In any case, I think you have every right to go for as long as you feel your story calls for it. Nonetheless, the least I'd do was to leave the work of interpreting the original word entirely for the reader. No further hints, no clues (aside from the obvious context, in your case. : )


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