# Let's Talk About Dragons



## DragonOfTheAerie (Jun 29, 2016)

As you can probably tell by my name, I love dragons. So, I'm hoping to start some open discussion on the topic of dragons.  
There isn't a hard and fast definition of what a dragon is. Cultures all around the world have dragon legends, which vary wildly. Dragons can be practically anything we want them to be. They can be dumb animals or they can far exceed humans in knowledge and intelligence. They can be huge, invincible flying tanks or they can be elegant and fragile. They can be savage and violent or gentle and non-threatening. They can breathe fire, but they can also spit acid or electricity. They can be good, evil, or neither. What a "dragon" is, how it behaves, and what it looks like is largely up to the writer, but everyone seems to be in agreement that they're awesome. 
So, what do you guys think about dragons? Are they awesome, or an over-used cliche that should be avoided? Do you include dragons in any of your stories? What are they like? Are they characters in their own right, or just accessories? What do you think about the dragon rider trope? Should a dragon hoard gold, breathe fire, be ridiculously huge, etc--what are some dragon cliches you hate? What do you think about the plausibility of such a creature?  
Hoping this ignites some interesting discussion.


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## Ireth (Jun 29, 2016)

Thus far I only have one story centered around dragons, and I play with a combination of Eastern and Western tales. The dragons have their own culture and mythology (sort of; they are actually the demigod-like beings of the setting).

I bring the standard "Eastern" and "Western" dragons into the same mythos by way of sexual dimorphism. Physically male dragons are the "Western" type, scaly fire-breathers (with or without wings), while physically female ones are "Eastern", furry water-dwellers. Masculine dragons are stereotyped among humans much like in Western lore, as evil gold-hoarding monsters who must be killed, while feminine dragons are revered as keepers of wisdom and judgment.

The main dragon character is an MtF transgender dragon named Gorokhan, who makes the most of her wings and fire-breath to make a living and entertain herself. She does kill those who try to kill her, but only in self-defense; she uses their gold to pay back farmers and the like whose livestock she sometimes must steal for food, and crafts their armor into pretty sculptures. Her best friend is a cis-female dragon who lives in a lake just downriver from Gorokhan's mountain.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jun 29, 2016)

A transgender dragon? Definitely never heard of that one before. It's actually a pretty interesting idea. I would read that book. Is her story about trying to be accepted as a transgender dragon, or does she just happen to be transgender and her story is about something else?


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## Ireth (Jun 29, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> A transgender dragon? Definitely never heard of that one before. It's actually a pretty interesting idea. I would read that book. Is her story about trying to be accepted as a transgender dragon, or does she just happen to be transgender and her story is about something else?



The latter. The MC is a human girl named Sarah who's magically dropped into Gorokhan's world; Gorokhan is the main one who tries to help Sarah while she looks for a way home. (I'm a big fan of so-called "portal fantasy.") It started out as a short story idea, but I'm considering expanding it into something bigger.


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## Malik (Jun 29, 2016)

I wouldn't feature a dragon in my series right now if my editor held a gun to my nuts. 

Dragons will have become the new vampires by the time anything you start writing today is finished.


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## Russ (Jun 29, 2016)

I love dragons and when they are done well I cannot get enough of them.  

Top dragons I have read about would have to include those beautiful creatures from Pern and above all the Dragons of Melnibone.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jun 29, 2016)

Malik said:


> I wouldn't feature a dragon in my series right now if my editor held a gun to my nuts.
> 
> Dragons will have become the new vampires by the time anything you start writing today is finished.


 
Maybe. But as with vampires, there is an audience for dragons. Also, you have much more flexibility as to what you can do with dragons than with vampires. 
Also vampires are just a lot more boring. In my opinion. Good things can be done with them, but I'm perplexed as to why they're so popular.


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## Malik (Jun 29, 2016)

Russ said:


> I love dragons and when they are done well I cannot get enough of them.
> 
> Top dragons I have read about would have to include those beautiful creatures from Pern and above all the Dragons of Melnibone.



There is also this. I'm not saying it can't be done, and can't be done well. I just think we're going to be up to our eyeballs in dragon-riding, dragon-controlling MC's within 18 months. If you're going to do it, make it good, and put a spin on it.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jun 29, 2016)

Ireth said:


> The latter. The MC is a human girl named Sarah who's magically dropped into Gorokhan's world; Gorokhan is the main one who tries to help Sarah while she looks for a way home. (I'm a big fan of so-called "portal fantasy.") It started out as a short story idea, but I'm considering expanding it into something bigger.



Oh, ok. For some reason I assumed the dragon was the MC. A story about a transgender dragon trying to gain acceptance of her identity in dragon society would be an interesting read, haha! But I do enjoy a good portal fantasy, ever since the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe when I was 7...memories. Sadly, portal fantasy seems to have fallen out of favor now; not much of it is being published, it seems.


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## Malik (Jun 29, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Maybe. But as with vampires, there is an audience for dragons. Also, you have much more flexibility as to what you can do with dragons than with vampires.
> Also vampires are just a lot more boring. In my opinion. Good things can be done with them, but I'm perplexed as to why they're so popular.



Vampires are popular as romantic leads because they promise eternal youth. There is a gazillion-dollar industry based solely on promising young women that they can delay aging. A handsome, sexy, worldly man who promises eternal love, eternal beauty, and eternal youthfulness speaks to a vulnerability and a deep-rooted fear inside the female psyche.


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## Nomadica (Jun 29, 2016)

I like dragons most when they are different in some way from the typical western ideas of them.

My favorite dragon picture The Keeper by Crutz


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## Ankari (Jun 29, 2016)

Malik said:


> I wouldn't feature a dragon in my series right now if my editor held a gun to my nuts.
> 
> Dragons will have become the new vampires by the time anything you start writing today is finished.



But dragons have always saturated fantasy. I've read/consumed

LOTR / Hobbit
D&D universes
Pern
Malazan Book of the Fallen
A Song of Ice and Fire
His Majesty's Dragon
Dragon Age (video games and books)
Skyrim (video game)
The Witcher 3 (comes close)

I think it always boils down to uniqueness.


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## Ireth (Jun 29, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> Oh, ok. For some reason I assumed the dragon was the MC. A story about a transgender dragon trying to gain acceptance of her identity in dragon society would be an interesting read, haha!



Fair enough, I wasn't exactly specific. But gaining acceptance in her own society wouldn't be an issue, as trans and other non-binary dragons are quite commonplace in that world. It's the way humans (minus the MC) view her that's her real problem.


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## TWErvin2 (Jun 29, 2016)

I don't actively seek out stories with dragons in them, but usually they add something to the story. The brighter/more intelligent they are, the more they tend to dominate the storyline, which only makes sense.

In my fantasy series, dragons are not overly intelligent (think elephant equivalent) and are used as mounts (serpent steeds). They're the type whose wings are associated with their front legs (like a bat), and there are different types (Reds breath fire, large, with, dagger-like serrated teeth. Blacks, have a maw more like a snapping turtle and breathe jets of acid, whites honk like large geese, with a long horn that extends back, like some dinosaurs, and it's attached to their nasal chamber to amplify the sound and the whites spit jets of liquid nitrogen, grays are herbivores, with a bovine head and horns and gout steam. The Land Drakes, don't fly are brown like dirt and their breath weapon is a cone of intense sound waves.


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## Nomadica (Jun 29, 2016)

My brother had this idea once that I really liked. The idea was that dragons didn't eat to survive but to grow and how they accomplished this was by hiding deep in the forest and being experts at mimicking sounds of other creatures including humans though they can't understand human language. So when a human would go walking by the dragon would speak, maybe call for help if it learned that that was an effective sound to lure humans off the trail and into the dark bush where the dragons, usually the size of a grizzly bear, would attack them. The dragons would be rare enough elusive that most people wouldn't know about them but the old mountain men would come into town to trade with tails of phantom voices in the woods and partners disappearing. Though most towns folk thought the voices they heard were just an effect of them spending to much time in the woods.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jun 29, 2016)

TWErvin2 said:


> I don't actively seek out stories with dragons in them, but usually they add something to the story. The brighter/more intelligent they are, the more they tend to dominate the storyline, which only makes sense.
> 
> In my fantasy series, dragons are not overly intelligent (think elephant equivalent) and are used as mounts (serpent steeds). They're the type whose wings are associated with their front legs (like a bat), and there are different types (Reds breath fire, large, with, dagger-like serrated teeth. Blacks, have a maw more like a snapping turtle and breathe jets of acid, whites honk like large geese, with a long horn that extends back, like some dinosaurs, and it's attached to their nasal chamber to amplify the sound and the whites spit jets of liquid nitrogen, grays are herbivores, with a bovine head and horns and gout steam. The Land Drakes, don't fly are brown like dirt and their breath weapon is a cone of intense sound waves.



These dragons sound pretty cool. The details are unconventional but interesting and make these species seem more real.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jun 29, 2016)

Malik said:


> There is also this. I'm not saying it can't be done, and can't be done well. I just think we're going to be up to our eyeballs in dragon-riding, dragon-controlling MC's within 18 months. If you're going to do it, make it good, and put a spin on it.



I read a lot of YA, and there is actually somewhat of a dragon drought in this genre. 
Just about anything can be done well. Just like anything can be done badly. Personally, I write about dragons because I like them and they appeal to me, not to follow (or avoid) a trend.


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 29, 2016)

Hello everyone!

What a wonderful thread. I also have a great fondness for dragons, and I think that they are far from being a cliche that would need to be avoided. Dragons of all types and styles are common and very traditional in Fantasy, so if you want to have them in your story and setting just go ahead and do it.

I have many types of dragons in my stories.

In the very first trilogy of Fantasy novels that I wrote, dragons are always winged and snake-like creatures about the length of an airliner. They are magical creatures instead of a biological species, and even though they are intelligent all of them are servants of the Mages that create them. These dragons attack by means of beams and blasts of magical fire, and they are used either for war or just as pets.

In my _Joan of England_ trilogy, dragons are not seen very often but they are part of the Fantasy world anyway. They are more traditional, four-legged versions instead of the snakey dragons of my earlier stories, but they attack by means of magical fire as well and they are also very intelligent.

Those dragons are not servants, and they decided to join the armies of the Mages on their own.

Apart from this material, four of my more recent stories feature dragons in one way or another: _The Lonely Bones_ has a very intelligent and talking dragon that serves as guardian of the Afterlife World, there is a great Lake Dragon in _Halley Wolffer_ accompanied by a character that turns into a dragon herself, dragons are very intelligent but shady creatures in _El Camino de Gracia_ and a talking dragon is the loyal companion of Princess Starlight in _Whispers of the Witch_.

I do not have any crazily huge dragon, in my worlds they are always large but never giants.

I loved the huge and terrifying Smaug in the recent _The Hobbit_ films and the Hungarian Horntail as seen in the HP _Goblet of Fire_ movie is superb, but my favorite dragon is definitely the Jabberwocky from Tim Burton's Alice in Wonderland. That one shoots what looks like super destructive violet lightning bolts, how cool is that?

So yeah, dragons rule... And welcome to Mythic Scribes, Dragon of the Aerie.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jun 29, 2016)

My dragons come in a variety of species. The smallest are about the size of a rat, the largest could be compared to a draft horse in terms of body size (the wings and the long neck and tail throw it off though) So, none of them are ridiculously huge. They're nearly as intelligent as humans, though in very different ways, and can understand language, but not speak it (their mouths/throats are not designed to produce a wide variety of sounds.) There are dragon riders, but dragons are also used for hunting, personal protection, and to perform a variety of tasks. Some will cooperate with humans and can be trained, others just won't. Dragons are very sensitive to human emotion and may form strong bonds with a human companion characterized by great sensitivity and loyalty.  Their views on humans vary; some see them as enemies, some see them as pests that are an annoyance rather than a threat, some see them as beings like themselves and friends, some see them as just prey animals. Some individuals like the taste of humans and target them specifically as prey. Others kill humans for sport or because they see them as a threat, or because they compete with the humans for resources. Some avoid humans. Some are curious about humans and will observe them trying to find out why they do the things they do, or even capture a human to learn more about them. Only a dragon with a very strong bond to a human will allow the human to ride it, though. They are very fragile and don't have armor scales; instead, they have smooth, hairless skin like a dolphin (they are egg-laying mammals). They are built for flight and thus are very vulnerable on the ground; that's why they evolved their breath weapon. They rely on speed and stealth to attack. Their life spans are about equal to humans' overall, but like with dogs, smaller dragons live longer (the smallest might live 110 years while the largest live about 60 years).


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jun 29, 2016)

Sheilawisz said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> What a wonderful thread. I also have a great fondness for dragons, and I think that they are far from being a cliche that would need to be avoided. Dragons of all types and styles are common and very traditional in Fantasy, so if you want to have them in your story and setting just go ahead and do it.
> 
> ...



All these sound very cool. I agree that Smaug is awesome, but I mainly love him for his personality, not for being a dragon (though that certainly helps too.) 
And thanks for welcoming me!


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## Lunaairis (Jun 29, 2016)

I lean towards the non-intelligent dragons when I write stories.  But I can be easily persuaded to enjoy talking dragons in any form of media. (Paarthurnax for the win!) I usually don't like reading stories with dragons as they tend to be too 'stereotypical fantasy stories' which isn't normally my thing. I like it in my gaming but not in my reading. I do love the look of dragons, any dragon. Wings, no wings, four legs, two legs, scales,fur, horns every where, sleek like a snake, the imagination that can go into creating a dragon I absolutely love. 

I was originally not going to have dragons in my current world. But I don't know? some idea hit me and then I really wanted to have them in it. Started thinking about things like being stuck in traffic because dragons are nesting on sky scrapers and some 'dragon slayers' have the road blocked  off to deal with the problem. 

Dragons in 'In the black' are *normally* rat-to-dog sized snake like creatures with tiny arms and legs. Their body size is nearly entirely made up of their wings and tail. They tend to live in nests made up of sticks and regurgitated animal fur. The floor of the nest is made up of sand and dirt which the dragon will use to cover their eggs to keep from burning from a direct hit of their fiery breath.  They are kind of like crows in that they like to collect shiny bobbles to impress mates and decorate their nests. 
During a normal walk through the woods its not uncommon to find dragons away from their nest and sleeping upside down on a tree branch. Often a sign they just ate. People sometimes keep these ones as pets, but its not encouraged. (your insurance is likely to go up if they find out you have one.) 








*Normal Dominion Dragon breeds*​
Now the not normal variety of dragons come from the northern parts of the old world. They live in the mountains and a few types of these dragons will often take shelter in caves or abandoned mines.  The ones that do this, do not make nests and are also not interested in shiny things. These dragons are the larger variate and are between wolf and lion sized.  They do not make good mounts, or pets due to their temperament and diet.  





*illegally imported old world dragon, about to be slayed*​
People are idiots though and often import the larger dragons into the Dominion as eggs or hatchlings. Then when the dragons grow too big, and escape they often find themselves coming face to face with an officer or animal control, dragon slayer.


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## ChasingSuns (Jun 29, 2016)

I personally have one dragon in my story. He takes on a sort of Gandalf-esque role to some of the heroes. The rest of the dragons are thought to be dead, but they have just flown away to live on a far away continent, because they got tired of all of the war and hatred on the continent that the story takes place on. They are generally good creatures, although their personalities vary as much as those of humans. That's about as far as the lore has gone for now because I haven't even introduced the one dragon into the story yet. I'm sure I'll be adding more to the history once I get there though.


I do think that dragons are one of those things that have been overdone a bit, but I also think that there are ways that they can be done well. I was originally concerned with the cliches surrounding them, but then I realized that I could just either remove those parts of the dragon lore or change it in some way. Besides, I've done pretty well at staying away from anything too cliche so far, so I think I can afford to have a little bit of it in there


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## Queshire (Jun 29, 2016)

You do not **** with dragons, or at least not true dragons. That's pretty much rule 1 in my story. They're cataclysms embodied in flesh. That's not an exaggeration. They can cause earthquakes with each step or a tornado with a flap of their wings and that's even without using magic. If they do use magic, well, they're compared to a magical nuclear reactor for a reason.

Luckily for us squishy humans they are few enough in number that for most of the world it's one to a continent. North America is unusual is that there's four of them. Dragons consider the Earth as something like a garden for them to enjoy so while "weeding" is a possibility, most of them are lazy enough that they're just content to enjoy the garden as it is.

Furthermore, it's become something of a fad among them in recent centuries to play at being a "king" though what counts as their kingdom varies. 

One spends his days masquerading as a world famous multi-billionaire. His company  is a house hold name in the muggle world for producing everything from toothpaste to flat screen TVs, though a fair number of his products has some magic sneaked into them in order to get a leg up on their competitors. On the supernatural side, his company basically serves as the walmart of the magical world. They sell anything from twelve packs of healing potions to portable magic mirrors that act as smart phones. He's the youngest of the True Dragons commonly known.

Another runs his own entire magical country hidden from muggle eyes right in the middle of America's heartland. He's pretty much the Big Good of the setting, though he can be a bit of a troll at times. Currently I'm thinking about naming him Sigurd and say that he claimed the name after taking revenge on the dragon slayer of Norse mythology.

The third is the Wyrm of the North. Though generally apathetic to most things, for some reason he absolutely loathes human mages. As a result all the monsters and things that go bump in the night which would normally be trimmed down by the efforts of human heroes have flocked to his shadow. He's pretty apathetic about those monsters, but upon occasion his pride can be used to move him to support his "subjects." So, as a result of this, while Canada is pretty safe for most muggles, it's a grim land where death and darkness lurk around every corner for those in the supernatural set.

I haven't given much thought to the fourth dragon. I'll probably have her be female and she'll take after Asian dragons or sea serpents instead of European dragons. Technically her area of influence includes Western US, Hawaii, and parts of western Canada and Mexico, but her real kingdom lies under the waves and she mostly concerns herself just with what's under the water. In sheer size her territory is the largest but since, ya know, it's underwater it mostly just ignores what goes on above the waves.

It's also commonly thought that there's a South American dragon, one responsible for the occasional outbreaks of zombie plague, but it's never been conclusively proven one way or another. As the author I think I'll probably go with it being the work of a dragon, but I'm not committed.

I haven't really given much thought to other dragons in the world beyond that. Coming up with stuff out of my ass  I think....

The single most powerful dragon is Antartica. Ok, so not all of antartica, but still big enough that he'd be measured in miles. He's currently mid-hibernation.

Europe currently doesn't have a dragon in residence. True dragons are stupidly powerful, but they can still be killed and Europe is the center of the world when it comes to dragon slaying. Due to the current political climate of the magical world such a dragon slaying would be unlikely to occur, but for most true dragons Europe is generally considered annoying and unpleasant. They'd just rather not bother with it. Despite this though, a rumor has been going around the magical world lately about a dragon egg hidden somewhere in Europe that's getting close to hatching. How the other true dragons will respond if this turns out to be true and if something unpleasant happens to their youngest kin could be truly apocalyptic.

There is an Asian dragon, that much is confirmed. Who it is and what country they call home is more questionable. China, Japan, Russia and more. There's evidence and accounts to support each, but the truth is still hidden and the other True Dragons are remaining quiet. Truthfully their dragon in residence could be considered a "multi-headed" dragon. They split their multiple heads into different bodies and spread out to all the different countries. At least one of their bodies unabashedly plays the stereotypical martial arts master capable of using their chi to perform amazing feats 100% straight. Nobody knows if that body actually serious or just pulling some sort of elaborate joke.

The African dragon is just as apathetic as the Canadian dragon to his kingdom and shares the Pacific dragon's disinterest in the surface, only instead of underwater his domain lies deep under the earth.

Finally the Australian dragon... Hm, I think I'll have him be the closest thing there is to a "failure" of a true dragon. He's remained in human form so long that he barely remembers how to use his dragon abilities and all he cares about is culture, wine and food.

As a note, though being a true dragon makes you a world power, they are hardly the only ones. Their pride is such that they generally wouldn't consider any other beings to be their equal, but there are certain other legendary individuals or combined organizations / nations whose strength affords them a certain amount of respect from the true dragons.

In addition, underneath the true  dragons there's numerous various beings which could be considered to possess Dragon-like qualities such as wyverns. The true dragons' attitudes to them varies. They still have their pride though, so if one of the lesser dragons or a "dragon slayer" that deals with the lesser dragons ever come across as offending them through their actions then then the offended true dragon might decide to have... words with them.


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 30, 2016)

That's some great artwork as always, Luna!

Terry Ervin: I really like the idea of dragons able to shoot liquid nitrogen at their enemies, that is really super cool (no pun intended!). Great weapon, I would love to see that happening on screen if your stories get adapted to movies or a TV series someday.

The acid thing is very good too, and scary. It reminds me of that old Danish movie about a deadly giant monster called _Reptilicus_ (which scared me a lot when I was a little girl), and some of my Mages have the ability to throw super destructive green acid-like liquids at each other in battle.

About fire: Sometimes people describe fire attacks in Fantasy as simply fire, but... What kind of fire? How powerful is it? What is its color? After all, the fire from a candle is nothing like the fire from an Oxyacetylene torch. In the case of my dragons, their magical fire is really nasty at best and truly all-annihilating stuff at worst.

I also love to describe different colors of fire.

The Jabberwocky from Tim Burton's _Alice in Wonderland_ shoots violet bolts of lightning, which have the ability to both blow its enemies to smithereens and cause nightmarish fires... I love that =)

I used to have some dragons with the ability to shoot large amounts of poison gas like elemental Chlorine, what do you think of that?


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## glutton (Jun 30, 2016)

I have different dragons in many of my works but in the book I'm editing now, the dragons and dragonkin that have been seen are air elemental and if they have a breath weapon, it is a blast of concentrated wind (not as weak as it sounds, the strongest of them can blow a massive hole in a fortified city wall). The King/Queen Elemental of Air (largest and most powerful of their kind) is a dragon with a 500' wingspan, so yes ridiculously huge, who has the aforementioned breath weapon plus can form a shield of solidified air in front of her, create tornados and a cloud big enough to hide an army of elementals, levitate things with wind, and probably other things involving wind/air she hasn't shown. She easily blocks blasts from a magical mecha's energy rifle with her air shield and then smashes it with little effort.

She gets beat up by the 5'1 nonmagical heroine wielding a giant hammer of course, cause Girl Pride. The same girl confidently jumps off her flying mount while hundreds of feet in the air to 1 or 2-shot smaller dragons and has defeated multiple other kaiju-sized King Elementals before so it's not too embarassing. XD


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## Sheilawisz (Jun 30, 2016)

Hey Glutton, that's a really huge and terrifying dragon that you just described!

I do like that particular weapon that consists of concentrated wind blasts, powerful enough to blow holes through the fortified walls of a city. I have a question, though: Is there a lot of noise spreading around when the dragon does that? I just imagined a terrible and deafening roar that accompanies the devastating attack.

Now that we are talking about dragons so much, I think that I'll probably scan my old drawings of various dragons and share them at the Fantasy Art Forum. It could be fun! Some of them are like thirteen years old, but I still keep them and I am likely to draw even more in the near future.

My drawings are bad, but they would give you a good idea of the dragons in my imagination.


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## glutton (Jun 30, 2016)

Sheilawisz said:


> I do like that particular weapon that consists of concentrated wind blasts, powerful enough to blow holes through the fortified walls of a city. I have a question, though: Is there a lot of noise spreading around when the dragon does that? I just imagined a terrible and deafening roar that accompanies the devastating attack.



Yes there is a loud howling which terrifies most people who aren't grown up former loli warriors powered by cuteness/excessive meat consumption. XD


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## Demesnedenoir (Jul 1, 2016)

Dragons are part of the mythology of my world, with a very distinct mythology of their own with a devolution of the species over eons... there's a reason for that, but it's a long story, LOL. Hence, they range in power from gods to Smaug to wee buggers a knight can stick a lance through. One of the few elder dragons to appear by name and interact with mortals is Gersvoresh’kÃ»mjotu’kÃ®, and she holds wisdom from the Age of God Wars and the Age of Warlords. She isn't one of the First Dragons who were present at the creation of the world, but she what I call second generation... meaning what passes for gods wouldn't mess with her. 

There isn't a dragon cliche I hate, least not that I know of. Hoard gold? sure, whatever. Breathe fire? sure, whatever. Eat dwarves for lunch? All dragons should do that, stinky dwarves anyhow.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jul 1, 2016)

The hoarding gold doesn't bother me, but I find the gold-sticking-to-their-bellies-as-armor annoying. Gold is HEAVY. I know the dragon's heavy in the first place and we accept that without questioning, but being coated in metal heavier than lead (that probably offers very little protection anyway) is stretching reality. anyway. Pet peeve of mine.


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## Demesnedenoir (Jul 2, 2016)

Well, if a pork bone can grow into a human's body... it isn't inconceivable that a morbidly obese dragon snoozing on their of gold for a decade might have their scales grow around the gold, heh heh. 



DragonOfTheAerie said:


> The hoarding gold doesn't bother me, but I find the gold-sticking-to-their-bellies-as-armor annoying. Gold is HEAVY. I know the dragon's heavy in the first place and we accept that without questioning, but being coated in metal heavier than lead (that probably offers very little protection anyway) is stretching reality. anyway. Pet peeve of mine.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jul 2, 2016)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Well, if a pork bone can grow into a human's body... it isn't inconceivable that a morbidly obese dragon snoozing on their of gold for a decade might have their scales grow around the gold, heh heh.



Super obese dragon? I could see that, but it's not getting into the sky and staying there without seriously powerful magic, haha!


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## Ankari (Jul 2, 2016)

I have dragons in my world. Their power is such that many would think of them as deities. They break the laws of conservation in that they can create matter and/or energy. Their intelligence is beyond comprehension. Yes, they are huge.

How do you fly, you ask? Well, they control gravity as well. Luckily for the people of my world, there exists fifty known dragons. Unluckily, they form a dragon swarm every century or so and destroy cities. The rate of such swarms have been increasing.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jul 2, 2016)

Seems like a lot of people here have the huge, all powerful type! Anyone here a fan or writer of tiny dragons?


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## skip.knox (Jul 2, 2016)

I have dragons in my world, but they are not yet clearly defined. They will play a role akin to that of the Vikings--they weren't there, then they were, they visited all kinds of destruction for a couple centuries or more, then they faded away though did not disappear.

One wrinkle of mine is that dragons are not natural. They were created by a wizard or perhaps a group of wizards, but once created they were capable of procreation. But their biology is flawed, so eventually they dwindle. The world at the time, of course, understands nothing of this. It's all just back story.

A corollary of the wrinkle is that the wizards took multiple shots and this resulted in a certain variation in types of dragons. One of these resulted in the lindwurm, a flightless dragon that lives underground. That's the only one I've developed much. It has a role to play in my larger system of magic in that a lindwurm secretes magic jewels, so over time it builds up a treasure trove. A lindwurm doesn't plunder humans; humans plunder lindwurms.


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## Steel Dragon (Jul 3, 2016)

First, my criteria of a dragon.

Four legs.
Wings.
Intelligence.
Breath weapon.

Anything else is not a dragon.

No. It's not.

"But, but, but..."

No, you're wrong. It's not a dragon if it doesn't have those things.

That said, I take my ideals of dragons from D&D and World of Warcraft. Different kinds and colors of drags have different breath weapons, come from different places and have different ecologies. In my world, for example, gold dragons are the most evil and power hungry of all dragons. They are the most cunning and brutal. Silver dragons are their anthesis. 

Dragons in my world have variable breath weapons, but there is some cross over. Multiple dragons breath different kinds of fire, for example. 

At the moment most of my dragons are in a state of racial hybernation, and will be for the first series of books. As I progress, one of the stories will be centered around them.


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## Sheilawisz (Jul 3, 2016)

Hello Steel Dragon!

First of all, Welcome to Mythic Scribes. You must really love dragons if you are called Steel Dragon, I see. I love dragons of various styles, but I understand your love for those four characteristics that you mentioned in particular. That is a really cool type of dragon.

I agree that the Breath Weapon is definitely a must-have for all of our fantastic winged monsters.

Do you have violet dragons, or maybe purple? Colors are very important to me too, not only in dragons but in other things as well. I think that a very dark, nearly blackish brown would be a very intimidating color for a dragon.

How large are your dragons?


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jul 3, 2016)

Steel Dragon said:


> First, my criteria of a dragon.
> 
> Four legs.
> Wings.
> ...



What you mentioned is more or less my definition of a dragon (excepting that a few species lack a breath weapon)


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## Drakevarg (Jul 3, 2016)

In a word? Dragons represent power. I find it fairly jarring when a dragon ISN'T the apex predator of any food chain they care to introduce themselves to. It's the same reason I roll my eyes whenever someone tries to pad out their badass resume by saying they've slain gods. Killing a god doesn't make you sound mighty, it makes the god in question sound weak.

Now dragonslaying, by contrast, is a time-honored tradition in mythology. But I think such a feat should be a career highlight, not something you do as a hobby. It's impossible for the dragons of Skyrim to remain awe-inspiring when you knock one out of the sky on a daily basis with all of the ceremony most people put into swatting a wasp that got into the house. And that casualness doesn't make you feel like a legendary badass, it just makes the dragons seem underpowered.

I guess in summation, I adore dragons. They're the first half of my name for a reason. But dragons are like cakes. You can't have them all the time or they stop being a treat.


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## Queshire (Jul 3, 2016)

Steel Dragon said:


> First, my criteria of a dragon.
> 
> Four legs.
> Wings.
> ...



I have to disagree with intelligence. To me a dragon should be a force of nature in a scaly body and most of the time intelligence takes more from that than it adds. Now, I'm something of a hypocrite for this since all of my dragons are intelligent, but they all have decidedly inhuman elements to their intelligence.

Actually, I have to disagree with all the rest, though not as much as intelligence. Asian dragons lack wings, whether having a wyvern type body, snake like body or lamia like body they don't need four legs, and fangs and poison can be just as dangerous as a breath weapon. It's far more important that it fills the role of a dragon rather than fitting any sort of cookie cutter body shape.



Drakevarg said:


> In a word? Dragons represent power. I find it fairly jarring when a dragon ISN'T the apex predator of any food chain they care to introduce themselves to. It's the same reason I roll my eyes whenever someone tries to pad out their badass resume by saying they've slain gods. Killing a god doesn't make you sound mighty, it makes the god in question sound weak.
> 
> Now dragonslaying, by contrast, is a time-honored tradition in mythology. But I think such a feat should be a career highlight, not something you do as a hobby. It's impossible for the dragons of Skyrim to remain awe-inspiring when you knock one out of the sky on a daily basis with all of the ceremony most people put into swatting a wasp that got into the house. And that casualness doesn't make you feel like a legendary badass, it just makes the dragons seem underpowered.
> 
> I guess in summation, I adore dragons. They're the first half of my name for a reason. But dragons are like cakes. You can't have them all the time or they stop being a treat.



Ah, but just think about how much of a badass it makes you when for everyone ELSE killing a single dragon would be the highlight of their career.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jul 4, 2016)

Drakevarg said:


> In a word? Dragons represent power. I find it fairly jarring when a dragon ISN'T the apex predator of any food chain they care to introduce themselves to. It's the same reason I roll my eyes whenever someone tries to pad out their badass resume by saying they've slain gods. Killing a god doesn't make you sound mighty, it makes the god in question sound weak.
> 
> Now dragonslaying, by contrast, is a time-honored tradition in mythology. But I think such a feat should be a career highlight, not something you do as a hobby. It's impossible for the dragons of Skyrim to remain awe-inspiring when you knock one out of the sky on a daily basis with all of the ceremony most people put into swatting a wasp that got into the house. And that casualness doesn't make you feel like a legendary badass, it just makes the dragons seem underpowered.
> 
> I guess in summation, I adore dragons. They're the first half of my name for a reason. But dragons are like cakes. You can't have them all the time or they stop being a treat.



Underpowered dragons do somewhat lose their dragon-ness. Though I have dragons in my work in progress that are cat-sized, they are still almost as intelligent as humans and can spit poison, fire or worse things. The largest are about the size of a draft horse in terms of body size. Its really their intelligence, superior senses, and breath weapon that makes them dangerous, not their size.


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## glutton (Jul 4, 2016)

Queshire said:


> Ah, but just think about how much of a badass it makes you when for everyone ELSE killing a single dragon would be the highlight of their career.



Or if for everyone else killing a 'small' fifty foot or dragon would be the highlight of your career, but you beat up and subdue (although not kill in the specific example I am thinking of) the five hundred foot apex of their kind. And have multiple wins against similar sized creatures on your resume. Powered by CUTENESS! Stand short and proud XD


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## Steel Dragon (Jul 4, 2016)

Queshire said:


> I have to disagree with intelligence. To me a dragon should be a force of nature in a scaly body and most of the time intelligence takes more from that than it adds. Now, I'm something of a hypocrite for this since all of my dragons are intelligent, but they all have decidedly inhuman elements to their intelligence.
> 
> Actually, I have to disagree with all the rest, though not as much as intelligence. Asian dragons lack wings, whether having a wyvern type body, snake-like body or lamia-like body they don't need four legs, and fangs and poison can be just as dangerous as a breath weapon. It's far more important that it fills the role of a dragon rather than fitting any sort of cookie cutter body shape.



Respectfully disagree. The Asian dragons I'll give a pass to, sort of the exception that proves the rule. But to me, nothing else is a dragon. "The role of a dragon," as you propose it can be filled by any malevolent being. There's no difference in this context between a dragon and a kaiju. And a creature with a wyvren type body is just that: a wyvren. Fangs and poison can be dangerous, I'm not arguing that. However poison usually doesn't evolve into a predator of a certain size, not when the brute strength of the creature is sufficiane (like a bear or a lion).


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## Steel Dragon (Jul 4, 2016)

Sheilawisz said:


> Hello Steel Dragon!
> 
> First of all, Welcome to Mythic Scribes. You must really love dragons if you are called Steel Dragon, I see. I love dragons of various styles, but I understand your love for those four characteristics that you mentioned in particular. That is a really cool type of dragon.
> 
> ...



I go for the big honking dragons. D&D scale, World of Warcraft scale. Adventurers may run across immature dragons, but, mature dragons should be big leviathans. 10' at the shoulder or bigger. Massive wings.  Pure destruction and carnage at their fingertips. I usually make their scales very hard natural armor. (In fact, there is a special alloy in my world that comes from smelting dragon scales into different metals.)

I have colored dragons, metallic dragons, gemstone dragons, elemental dragons...

So far I have plans for Black, white, red, blue, gold, silver, steel (of course), Diamond, and onyx dragons. I might be able to work purple in somewhere.


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## Sheilawisz (Jul 4, 2016)

Hey there, my fellow Dragon lovers =)

Dragon of the Aerie, if you are a fan of smaller dragons that are dangerous anyway you would love the Peruvian Vipertooths. Are you familiar with the world and lore of the _Harry Potter_ series? These dragons in particular are not seen during the series, but they were described by J.K. Rowling anyway in a separate work.

The Peruvian Vipertooths are relatively small (about fifteen feet long from nose to tail), but they are fierce, and their venomous fangs make them particularly dangerous. Also, the fact that they are small helps them to conceal themselves more easily both from Wizards and non-magical people.

They are the fastest of all dragons, and they like to eat people!

At some time of history the Vipertooths reproduced so much that they became a serious threat, so the International Confederation of Wizards sent special teams of Exterminators to lower their numbers. Also, the very widespread magical disease Dragon Pox came originally from the Peruvian Vipertooths.

Steel Dragon: Wow, I love that idea of melting dragon scales together with metals in order to produce a special alloy. I guess that this dragon-enhanced metal is useful for making weapons, but are there other applications for it?

My dragons are large too, but never the size of the Titanic or something like that.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jul 4, 2016)

Sheilawisz said:


> Hey there, my fellow Dragon lovers =)
> 
> Dragon of the Aerie, if you are a fan of smaller dragons that are dangerous anyway you would love the Peruvian Vipertooths. Are you familiar with the world and lore of the _Harry Potter_ series? These dragons in particular are not seen during the series, but they were described by J.K. Rowling anyway in a separate work.
> 
> ...



Huge Harry Potter fan here


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 5, 2016)

I love dragons. My fantasy series is centered around dragons. In the first novel, the MCs had to fight against the reanimated bones of long-dead dragons, and in the book I'm rewriting right now, the MCs are trying to find a sleeping dragon before an army of conquerors can find it and use it for war.

I have several other places where dragons become central to the plot, and though I tend to use D&D-type dragons, I'd like to think I have some unique elements. For example, one of the goddesses in my world gave part of her immortal soul to a young werewolf in book 5, and the deal they struck was that in exchange for the soul sliver, he'd become the protector of her beloved dragons. In book 7, the one I'm rewriting, he must make some decisions that will impact the world and the future books (they're written already), and the outcome involves several future dragons, too. 

In book 8, one of the MCs finds out that he's descended from a dragon who turned into a human, and that he's immune to dragon magic. That becomes a critical point, when he's called upon to destroy an evil relic, and must ask a shadow dragon, a being of death and corruption (it gives off radiation), to destroy the cursed artifact. Later, his wife helps the shadow dragon find its mate, who's been taken hostage by an evil wizard, who's using it to blanket a city in darkness.

Yeah, I'm super in love with dragons. I wrote a MC dragon for a short story that I love, and I have created a whole bunch of lore and history for my fantasy world, revolving around dragons and werewolves, and deities.


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## SeverinR (Jul 5, 2016)

I am a dragon lover.
I have done several short stories and am wanting to do a trilogy(or more).
My stories so far have been around hatching and young dragons.

My Psi series will also have a dragon.  Psi-dragons are among the rarest, and most powerful of mentalists.  (As with elves, the development of the arcane mental abilities usually overshadows or neglects the ability of psi powers, so the more intelligent the being, the more powerful the psi, the less frequently they are found.)

Also another rarity, unlike D&D, I don't have a unique race of dragons that can change to humanoid form.  It is a rare ability of some dragons.  They only change to one type of humanoid, they will always look the same in dragon form or human (barring other magic of course).

I think I might have posted the short story of the hatching of a dragon.
http://mythicscribes.com/forums/showcase/2132-dragon-hatching.html
Read the corrected version last two posts.


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## skip.knox (Jul 5, 2016)

OK, I have a question about dragons. For those of who who have intelligent dragons, what do you do to make them something other than humans in costume?

Specifically, how do dragon motives differ from human motives? What elements of dragon society would you not find in human society? What do dragon economics look like? Politics? Do your dragons have a religion? In all these cases, what specific aspects are unique to dragons, not found among dwarves or humans or orcs? 

To explain a bit more, I like Naomi Novik's dragons. She does a pretty good job of setting out some distinctive behaviors, particularly between dragons. Even so, they come off (to me) as moody twenty-somethings.

The underlying issue here is how to make non-human, intelligent races who have different characteristics and motivations, yet are not so alien that those characteristics and motivations can still engage a human reader.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jul 5, 2016)

Anyone familiar with Toothless from How To Train Your Dragon?


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## Sheilawisz (Jul 5, 2016)

Skip: In most of my Fantasy settings, dragons are not very common. They are rarities, not numerous enough to group together and form societies of their own. Graceland dragons are intelligent and powerful, but most of them prefer to work like lone wolves and they remain (most of the times) under the control of Wizards and Mages.

In some cases, dragons have decided to be independent and they escape. They have sometimes done it together, forming something like a small pack of wolves... However, their intention for doing this is not to form a society but to simply live freely in nature and do whatever that they like without Wizards to boss them around.

This is why Graceland dragons are never to be fully trusted.

The problem when this happens is that dragons' idea of fun often involve setting villages and towns on fire and killing people, so the Monarchs send Wizards or even Mages to hunt them.

Dragons are even rarer in Vallery's world (Violet Riding Hood and Whispers of the Witch). Most of the dragons of that world were quite evil, so they were destroyed at great cost by powerful armies led by Sages. These Sages are kind of powerful with their magic, so after a long time they succeeded in destroying almost all of the dragons of the world.

Shadow is one of the few that remain, but he has no interest either in vengeance or in bringing dragons back to power. All that he wants is to live happily with Princess Starlight, and to protect her from all harm, forever.

I think that a society composed of all dragons with government, economy and everything would be intriguing, but I have never done anything like that.

Dragon of the Aerie: Yeah, I love Toothless! How to Train your Dragon is a super cool movie =)


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## Steel Dragon (Jul 5, 2016)

Sheilawisz said:


> Steel Dragon: Wow, I love that idea of melting dragon scales together with metals in order to produce a special alloy. I guess that this dragon-enhanced metal is useful for making weapons, but are there other applications for it?



To start with, just weapons and armor. I look at it the way _Stargate SG-1_ handled the Tau'ri finding Naquadah. At first, all they could figure out to do with it was build nukes. Eventually as the series went on, they found more uses for the stuff.


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## SeverinR (Jul 5, 2016)

I was thinking about Wyverns, imho they would be basically Alligators with claws and wings.
They snatch up their prey and carry it high and drop it. (like the death roll of the gator).
If their powerful bite doesn't end the fight, the death drop would. 
They wouldn't be very smart.

My dragons have basic similar dispositions but are able to determine their own "alignment".  Red dragon tend to be more chaotic, but have free will to decide for themselves.   They span from average intelligence to genius.  Basically dragons aren't attention seekers, which keeps them from conquering the world. They do like valuables, though.


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## Steel Dragon (Jul 6, 2016)

Just happened to find this on Pinterest.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jul 7, 2016)

Steel Dragon said:


> Just happened to find this on Pinterest.



Some terms: 
 Dragon-a dragon with 4 legs and 2 wings 
Wyvern-a dragon with 2 legs and 2 wings 
Amphiptere/amphithere-a legless dragon with wings 
Drake- a wingless dragon 
Wyrm/lindworm-a wingless, legless dragon (I've also seen lindworm mean a dragon with 2 legs and no wings that crawls along the ground) 

Also there are sea dragons. 

These definitions are used differently all the time, though.


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## Creed (Jul 8, 2016)

I also love dragons 

In my universe though, they were the First creatures to pull themselves out of Chaos and create form. They understand that being is a choice, and they manipulate their bodies as such. They also have physical and metaphysical forms, which are constrained by different laws (in the metaphysical Deep they can be as large as planets, but not so in the physical world, they're just smaller than a football field). 

While they may be some of the most intelligent creatures in existence, they are also ruled by the dogma/creed of Chaos: creation and destruction, as are all living things to some degree in my world. The fact that most of them have been sleeping within Chaos for billions of years has corrupted their minds, and infected them with a hive mind bent on ending the Universe so it can be reborn. The more attuned beings are to Chaos as well, the more time breaks down around them, so dragons can kind of see past/present/future simultaneously. There would be nothing to stop them, but plot complications arise and they have to deal with some interesting individuals, and Fate gets all screwy so they can't tell what's going to happen.

P.S. Look at some of the Greek and Norse "dragons," they're just snakes (and wyrms)! And they may only have bestial intelligence.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Jul 8, 2016)

Creed said:


> I also love dragons
> 
> In my universe though, they were the First creatures to pull themselves out of Chaos and create form. They understand that being is a choice, and they manipulate their bodies as such. They also have physical and metaphysical forms, which are constrained by different laws (in the metaphysical Deep they can be as large as planets, but not so in the physical world, they're just smaller than a football field).
> 
> ...



Those dragons sound cool. I guess they're like gods, pretty much. 

And yes, dragons in early mythology are all snake-like creatures. The flying and breathing fire didn't come until later, I think the first flying, fire breathing dragon was in Beowulf. And even it is described as writhing and twisting like a snake.


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## Creed (Jul 12, 2016)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> And yes, dragons in early mythology are all snake-like creatures. The flying and breathing fire didn't come until later, I think the first flying, fire breathing dragon was in Beowulf. And even it is described as writhing and twisting like a snake.



Though often snake-like, there is evidence to suggest that fire-breathing winged dragons existed in Sumerian and Babylonian mythology in the first millennium BC. There may be a link between one of the world's first fire-breathing dragons and an active volcano of the same name. Tiamat herself is depicted in turn as a woman, a serpent, and a gryphon-like dragon. For the Balbylonians, as well, dragons were literally beings of chaos (you can see a link between my dragons and theirs).


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## vaiyt (Jul 14, 2016)

I love dragons, so they're a big part of any fantasy setting I work on. That also brings a problem: I want dragons to be awe-inspiring, powerful creatures that dominate the situation whenever they appear, but I also want to be able to work on many variations of them without making them too common. My solution was to have the majority of dragons live in a separate plane of existence.

In the world of the map I have shown in this forum, Dragons are some of the eldest creatures in the universe, and feed on mana sources. That makes them the natural predator of every creature born from magic, like monsters, fey and demons. They can show up in a wide variety of forms (variations on a six-limbed, vaguely reptilian body) because their material shape is just a shell surrounding a core of pure power (known as the dragon's "heart").


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