# Trying to not set my raft on fire....



## Kit (Mar 23, 2012)

Sorry I keep asking for help with all these stupid questions.... but that's what we're here for, right?  

I need to have campfire-sized fires on my bamboo rafts. Preferrably without burning up the rafts and their occupants.  Again, they are rather primitive folks, so the setup should be something rather primitive- and I'd prefer to not make them trade with outlanders to get metal for this if I can manage it with the materials at hand. Can I use some kind of clay bowl? Coated with something? A bed of old ash in the bottom? How about one bowl inside of a larger shallow one, the larger shallow one containing a few inches of water to prevent the smaller fire bowl from getting too hot and burning the raft? I was also considering having the fire bowl on a set of short legs (perhaps with the legs sitting in a shallower bowl with a few inches of water in it). The rafts are going to be moving, so the wobbliness of a burn bowl on legs would be a disadvantage. It would also be nice to have something that didn't require constant monitoring and repouring of water into that outside pan, but I'll do what I have to do. I've experimented small-scale with a fire made in a pot of sand, but the sand got really hot. I guess I could keep wetting the sand, just like repouring water into a bottompan, if I really had to... Thoughts?

I also need to have some bigger fires, an oven or two, and a kiln on some larger communal rafts. These are going to pretty much be constantly going, and very hot. What would I need to do to make my ovens and kiln safe? Sit their legs in a pan of water? 

I have to be really careful, because I have kids and disabled people essentially living on some of these big communal kitchen rafts, so I can't have them catching on fire. Also, I figure if the kiln (which was expensive and a PITA to transport) ends up sinking to the bottom of the river, that could be a real hassle.

Any ideas would be much appreciated. Thank you.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 23, 2012)

When I was younger, I remember watching a educational video that said you can heat water in a leaf, because the water will stop the leaf from burning.  I suggest maybe googling that and seeing how and why its possible, then it might help you invent something that will do what you need it to.


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## Queshire (Mar 23, 2012)

Hrmm... That's a tough question, historically fire was the biggest threat on any boat or ship. Maybe consider whether you even need fire? You could have them eat pickled foods primarily or rely on glowing mushrooms or moss for light. You could also have something like hanging pots with fire in them so that they wouldn't risk tipping over, but I'm not sure how you'd do it without metal. Twisted vines maybe? I know that historically there were some incidents of essentially floating cities, so you could take a look at that, but I'm not sure how much help it'd be.


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## SeverinR (Mar 23, 2012)

I think it would be possible to use a two tiered clay pot, fill the lower with water(between fire and fire pot) fire in upper, the lower is a heat sink, to prevent the wood at the base from heating up.  The water would have to be filled once in a while, and if long term or hot fires the water might boil.

It is one possibility, also if not anchored to the boat, if someone knocked it over, the water would assist in prevent a large scale boat fire. It might not be enough to extinguish, but it would be a great warning if no one was watching the fire. Loud hiss along with the noise of the fire pot falling over.  It might be able to use as a warmer for food, or medical supplies?


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 23, 2012)

What if you used the water itself... like had a sort of stone fire pit  surrounded by water, or even a clay container holding the fire that was somehow built out over the water or suspended somehow....


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## Saigonnus (Mar 23, 2012)

Well, many early native cultures crafted "bowls" from a stone or rock and used them to hold the fire to heat the inside of their huts in the winter. Something like this could be used in the center of a raft or canoe depending on the size as a way of cooking or keeping warm, if it is on a raft or boat, consider if it is for heat that smaller is better, especially if you cover the center in some way. Look up a flat boat and perhaps that can give some idea of what I mean.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 23, 2012)

yeah I remember hearing that now..... they had ways to transport a small fire around in canoes, which I guess was for ease, so they didn't have to keep making fire everywhere they went.


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## Kit (Mar 23, 2012)

I wonder if it would make sense to cut a hole in the center of the raft and have the fire pot suspended in that hole in such a way that the bottom of the pot is actually touching  the water. I think I'd still be stuck with having to use metal for that, but safety needs to trump ease of obtaining materials.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 23, 2012)

I think clay could work, but then I don't burn much here in the desert (where wildfires are VERY common).  If you suspended an earthenware pot to the water, it might be okay... and if it scientifically isn't possible, MAKE it possible.... invent a coating they smear on the pot, slug juice or river bug oil or something which will make it protected from shattering


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 23, 2012)

l like your desire to have a self-sufficient people, and early humans would have made it work.  I think it adds an element to the culture if you continue on as you are; with them not reliant on outside supplies....


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## Kit (Mar 23, 2012)

ROFL... you make me *really* want to come up with an excuse to use "slug juice" for SOMETHING.....


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## Kit (Mar 23, 2012)

They do trade with others, but they like to live simply and be self-reliant as much as possible. The constant damp and the fact that they are semi-nomadic further make having a lot of metal stuff impractical. In addition, the kids are a large part of the story. At about age 7 or so, they are mostly taking care of themselves. They have less access to trade goods, so it's particularly important for them to find ways to do things with what materials are at hand.


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## Caged Maiden (Mar 23, 2012)

like I said, I love the concept, and it is very probable that if metl is rare, they were using something before tey had access to it.  If only wealthy people had a metal fire bowl, it would add depth to your culture if you could draw that distinction.  Keep going with this, It's good


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## Saigonnus (Mar 23, 2012)

Plant fibers or vines could be braided and were used like later man used rope to tie things together. Also strips of leather soaked in water and tied around items could hold things together even better than plant fibers. Assuming you have deer, cows, goats or even rabbits, it could possibly add to the self-sufficiency aspect. Most primative cultures used almost every part of the animal for something in their everyday lives. Bones went for knife handles or spear points, intestines for rope also (or musical instruments) bladder for holding water and most of the internal organ were eaten.


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## kadenaz (Mar 24, 2012)

I like lack of resources too


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## Kit (Mar 24, 2012)

anihow said:


> Keep going with this, It's good



You don't know the half of it... I'm really excited about this WIP.  I can't locate the beginning yet, but I've written a few scenes from random spots in the storyline. When I go back to reread, instead of thinking "This is irredeemable crud," and circular-filing it, as I often do, I'm thinking, "Day-um, this is sublime... did I write this?"  :biggrin:


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## Ivan (Mar 24, 2012)

Hate to introduce another problem but even a little campfire burns through a couple pounds of wood per hour. Big fires go through a lot more. Where is that wood going to come from?


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## Queshire (Mar 24, 2012)

I think somebody mentioned something about peat as fuel in another thread?


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## Kit (Mar 24, 2012)

Yes, I was going to use the peat idea- they will also be burning other vegetation. Not always DRY vegetation... bogs being what they are, clouds of ravenous mosquitoes are a constant problem. I figure billowing smoke will be a good thing.


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## Ivan (Mar 25, 2012)

As far as the small fires, if its in a small enough vessel you could slide it around so that no one part of the raft gets too hot.


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## Ivan (Mar 25, 2012)

As far as the small fires, if its in a light enough vessel you could slide it around so that no one part of the raft gets too hot. A water jacket would probably be the most practical though.

It's true that a very thin vessel full of water can be directly exposed to fire, but unless you can make your rafts out of giant very strong doritos this isn't going to help.

(sorry- that was supposed to be an edit, not another post.)


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## Melissa G. McPhail (Mar 26, 2012)

I think all of your ideas have merit.  A campfire cooled in a water bath would definitely work.  You don't say where this is happening, but it seems the easiest solution is that the natives have developed a tar or resin type coating from a local tree to protect the raft from heat.  If this is a fantasy world, you can do anything you want.


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## Penpilot (Mar 26, 2012)

Kit said:


> I wonder if it would make sense to cut a hole in the center of the raft and have the fire pot suspended in that hole in such a way that the bottom of the pot is actually touching  the water. I think I'd still be stuck with having to use metal for that, but safety needs to trump ease of obtaining materials.



I was going to replay with an answer like this. I think it would work. Suspend the pot over the hole with a leather harness of some sort. In case of emergency untie a strap and tilt the pot to dump the fire into the water without losing the pot.



Ivan said:


> Hate to introduce another problem but even a little campfire burns through a couple pounds of wood per hour. Big fires go through a lot more. Where is that wood going to come from?



Do they maybe have access to a natural source of coal?

I'm all for getting facts right, but don't let facts get in the way of a good story.  A rule of thumb I go by is I'm allowed to BS one maybe two small facts in a story so long as it doesn't violate the internal logic of the story. My two cents.


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## Saigonnus (Mar 27, 2012)

Depending on the resources available, you could perhaps have them use tallow candles (which is made from animal fat) in a clay containers for transporting fire from one place to another without a large expenditure of fuel since the candle IS the fuel. If it is somewhat protected from the elements it could be used even in the worst weather (like on a flat boat). As a heat source it would be a bit limited compared to other things but even a little heat combined with body heat can help. 

History: It is unknown when candles first came about, but generally they are thought to have been around for at least 5000 years.

If the story is set anywhere in the last 5000 years or the equivalent, it could work for the story. 

As for a substance, pine makes creosote, the prime ingredient for PITCH, availability of these trees in the culture could make it easy to create a substance to protect from water as it was used on ships for centuries by pretty much every major naval power. Depending on resources, you could also go with whale fat or blubber from other sea animals, perhaps even the skin could be used.


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## Ivan (Mar 27, 2012)

Penpilot said:


> I'm all for getting facts right, but don't let facts get in the way of a good story.  A rule of thumb I go by is I'm allowed to BS one maybe two small facts in a story so long as it doesn't violate the internal logic of the story. My two cents.



I agree with this. But you have to try to save your get out of jail free card if you can.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 28, 2012)

As long as you have enough insulation, the wood of the raft will not get hot enough to ignite.  

A good, thick stone or brick won't allow all the heat to be transmitted to the wood.  Your race of people are probably experienced enough with using this system that they'd put out the fire long before it became a danger.


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