# Story opening woes



## Caged Maiden (Jun 12, 2015)

I guess I don't really have a question, just a little situation over which I need to vent.  I wonder who else around here is in a similar boat and whether there's a clear solution that could get us un-sunk?

My story opens with a woman climbing a cathedral's wall to gain access to the religious leader's office.  She intends to kill him.  One would think with action opening the story, it would be interesting, but I fear the opening is anything but interesting.  I've struggled with this opening for some time and have done three full rewrites of it, but I just can't get a solid grip on what I think is a winner.  I've added details for clarity---then cut them for brevity.  I've brought in the microscope and focused on the character--and recently pulled way back and used a narrator voice for the opening paragraph.  

Why is this so freaking difficult?

Am I over-complicating things for myself by showing the events that start off the whole book (this scene happens two years before the book)?  Two main events happen and I'm just not sure I'm getting anything across clearly.  The first event is that the woman recently came back to town and the religious leader found out about it and then her son died in a tragic accident.  She KNOWS the cleric had something to do with it.  The second event is a young man coming to see the cleric (she overhears their conversation) and asks about why his friend died in a heresy trial in another city (one the cleric should have been able to stop).  After that conversation plays out (over a couple double-spaced pages, so not too brief but not too detailed), the young man leaves and the woman can't find the cleric again.  She received what she thinks is a divine message, and she follows the young man, forging a partnership that is the basis for the rest of the novel.  

Now, in my mind, those events aren't fluff, they aren't written elaborately except for a few places where I inserted character voice and feeling, and stepping back, I'd say that was a compelling chain of events.  But I can't get it to work.  I mean, it doesn't feel as strong as I'd like it to be, and I'm struggling to get in a balance that not only allows readers to understand what the premise of the story is (social reform and the downfall of a corrupt cleric), but also not bog down the tale with erroneous detail and explaining.

Are any of you scribes really good at openings?  I need some help.  This first chapter is split into three parts.  The first, I mentioned above.  The second scene is 20 months later when the woman is in a different place in life.  She's hired a chemist and his mercenary brother to concoct a sort of truth serum that will get the cleric to confess his crimes, and she's asked the mercenary to take a message to a priestess in hopes that with the priestess' help, they'll be able to spring her former lover and partner from years past, from prison.  The third scene is another POV, a young girl who is in a sticky situation out in the countryside.  Of the three scenes, readers have connected best with the last one and I can't for the life of me understand how a little romantic interlude and getting yelled at by her father is more compelling than the spy games and seriousness of the first two.  Any advice?  TO me, the more compelling scenes are causing confusion for readers, btu they're by far the more critical to understand. The third scene is simply an introduction to a character who will be a major POV throughout the novel, who has a front-row seat when the plot unfolds.


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## fantastic (Jun 12, 2015)

I assume your problem is not writing the beginning scene where she climbs the cathedral. Most likely, you are finding it hard, how to suddenly skip to another time.

In my own story, I have a similar situation. It starts at one point in time, skips a few years, then again skips a few years. I decided that I would not begin at the beginning. At least not for now but I am not sure. I intend to begin at the point i planned to make after first time skip. That makes only one time skip. The rest I might tell through flashbacks or in a way that readers can find out about what happened.

As for the time skip, I am writing story with more than one main character, so I intend to show each other. When point of view returns to the first one, time will pass.


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## Epaminondas (Jun 12, 2015)

Hmm... Well, obviously I haven't actually read the scene but it sounds like it should have enough tension. It sounds to me like the tension comes from the moment when she's come this far to kill this guy, she's just getting ready to do so (perhaps this is a good time to get into why... then suddenly she is interrupted just before getting the chance (when the other character comes in). Clearly something has to happen in this conversation that gives her new information or else why would she abandon her original plan to make the kill now? The tension coming from the choice she has to make... do I kill him now in a fit of vengeance or let the guy who killed my son walk? Will I ever get another chance if I let him go? Is there a larger victory that can be had from doing so? 

Am I on the right track as to what you're going for?
On a side note: If its two years in the past; to me that just screams prologue.

Edit: Oops, sorry I missed the line about not being able to find the cleric after the conversation and the divine message.... Depending on the the content of the divine message; I think my advice would still be the same though. I'd rather see her actively decide to walk away rather than just miss her chance. If the other character gives information that she didn't know then perhaps she follows him to try to find out what else he knows.

Anyway, may be way off but I hope it helps.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 12, 2015)

I think the hardest part is the amount of time I've put into this opening, and to know that it's still not as strong as it needs to be.  I've got the knowledge to accomplish a spectacular story, but this one is eluding me in the worst way.  It's that damn balance problem of explaining what's going on in a way that entertains the reader while supplying information.  I'm going to keep at it, but I'm frustrated enough to punch my screen right now.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 12, 2015)

Epaminondas said:


> Hmm... Well, obviously I haven't actually read the scene but it sounds like it should have enough tension. It sounds to me like the tension comes from the moment when she's come this far to kill this guy, she's just getting ready to do so (perhaps this is a good time to get into why... then suddenly she is interrupted just before getting the chance (when the other character comes in). Clearly something has to happen in this conversation that gives her new information or else why would she abandon her original plan to make the kill now? The tension coming from the choice she has to make... do I kill him now in a fit of vengeance or let the guy who killed my son walk? Will I ever get another chance if I let him go? Is there a larger victory that can be had from doing so?
> 
> Am I on the right track as to what you're going for?
> On a side note: If its two years in the past; to me that just screams prologue.




You're so on the right track, that's exactly what i have going on in the scene, but readers have told me they're not feeling it.  Problem is, I'm not sure what else to do because on paper, it looks like it's as good as I can make it.  Frustrating.  You've basically described exactly what i have...so why isn't it resonating with a reader?  HA!  What a conundrum.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 12, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> You're so on the right track, that's exactly what i have going on in the scene, but readers have told me they're not feeling it.  Problem is, I'm not sure what else to do because on paper, it looks like it's as good as I can make it.  Frustrating.  You've basically described exactly what i have...so why isn't it resonating with a reader?  HA!  What a conundrum.



I'm in a similar situation, and I've chosen to completely ditch the first several paragraphs for an entirely new scene.  I understand your frustration, though.  I've rewritten those paragraphs dozens of times, and I feel they're better for the story than the scene I'm substituting.  In the end, though, my skill level just doesn't seem up to the task.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 12, 2015)

Thank you Brian.  I know we're in a similar situation.  I just can't seem to put my finger on why this isn't working for readers.  Maybe it's time for the showcase.

The thing is, I've adjusted it based on comments and feedback so many times.  Sometimes I add for clarity, sometimes I cut for pacing.  I just haven't seemed to hit on a winning combination.  The thing is, I recently read The Lies of Locke Lamora and the tone of that novel is what I've been trying to accomplish with my own book for over a year, but where TLoLL has a pretty memorable opening--too cool for me to replicate--I need to find a way to understand what details readers want to know and what they'd prefer me wait to mention until later.  Some readers want a clear picture of the immediate circumstance (understand WHY she's trying to kill him--spelled out, not hinted at, and they want to know about the interaction and conversation between the cleric and lawyer, but I've heard from a few folks that they want clarity and others want a brief mention and not to slow the pacing for the sake of explaining).  HOW can I accomplish both or is this simply a "how do I like it" question?  Any advice on that?  Some readers want more, others want less, but i'm torn between which is the better option because I FEEL STRONGLY there must be a middle ground that will work for most readers.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 12, 2015)

I just want to invite you all to view this chapter.  I had to trim a couple lines to get it to fit in my portfolio, but this is pretty much how it stands--the best I can do.  http://mythicscribes.com/forums/portfolios/caged-maiden/309-written-red-chapter-1-edited.html

PLEASE, let me know what you think.  Is it tense or just flat?  Is there enough character voice or is it static?  i've tried so hard to not have too much information but to set up the main conflict of this novel (the corrupt cleric and the people who want to take him down publicly).  I just can't fathom why the third section resonates so much more with readers than the first two, but I need desperately to understand if there is a critical flaw in this opening.  THANK YOU!!!!


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## ThinkerX (Jun 12, 2015)

Caged, I would suggest the same thing for you that I did for Brian: submit your opening to 'Flogging the Quill' and see what others think.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 12, 2015)

not a bad idea.  I considered submitting to Immerse or Die, but you need to be published for him to read it.  i'm not sure what Flogging the Quill is, but I certainly need something, because I can't objectively look at this anymore.  Maybe it's good and the few confused readers aren't my target audience?  I realize I may run into that with a story that closely resembles the TV show Borgias.  It isn't a pick it up and read kinda thing, you kinda gotta get into the characters.  That being said, I'm not sure whether I've effectively given readers the lure they need to get into the characters.


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## ThinkerX (Jun 12, 2015)

Caged:

Flogging the Quill

FTQ is pretty much a straight up vote to see if readers find your first page compelling enough to turn to the second page - first 300 words or so. Three options: Yes, No, and Almost.  There are usually around two dozen votes total per entry.

Ray (site moderator) will also make some comments on the first page, frequently combined with a brutal, one pass edit.  

So that you know, the vast majority of pieces submitted get 'no' votes - but at least you get an inkling where the problems are.  

Brian's piece went about as well as I expected it to.

I have one in the pipeline that should appear early next week.  

From what I have seen of your writing, I expect you will fair reasonably well.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 12, 2015)

wow, I'll have to try that.  i'm not sure whether this work really has a page-turner opening, but I'd be willing to give it a shot.  Thanks!


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## Penpilot (Jun 13, 2015)

Hey CM

I totally feel your pain. I run across problems like this all the time.

I took a read through the three scenes. Full disclosure. It's a bit late where I am, so my focus isn't at 100%. But I gave it an honest go with brain cells I have functioning at this time.

I think the scenes were all well written and well designed. If this were a book I picked off a shelf in the store, the quality in the writing would earn you a couple of chapters of time to truly grab me by the collar. 

For me, this is what think may be missing. In the first two scenes, the personal aspects of why she's doing what she's doing aren't front and center enough. She just lost her son. It's the reason she's there. IMHO that should be a very large shadow cast on to the first scene, and I'm not really seeing enough of that. I would think that those emotions would color the scene more.

The second scene, she's planning to spring her friend. What this person means to her isn't really felt. You want the reader to care what happens them. Since we don't really know much about him, we don't really care if she succeeds or not.

I guess part of it is knowing the stakes of failure and making them felt. And not just the obvious ones like death. For example, a quarterback who loses the Superbowl, the basic stakes are obvious. It's a personal failure. You can add a money element, where he loses as large sum of money. They're fine stakes, but they don't rip your guts out. Imagine if the quarterback thinks he let down a team-mate who's retiring and will never get another shot OR he made a guarantee to his dying grandmother that he would win for her. Now things become more personal and the stakes are emotionally heavier. 

In the third scene, there's peek into the personal life. It gives the reader a bit of juicy drama to chew on between Daniela and Lorenzo, and then lets the reader in on a secret when Daniela lies about where she was. The reader gets drawn into the deception and becomes a part of the in the know club, which helps them engage with the story more. We get the feeling that if she gets caught in the deception, the price will be the relationship between Daniela and Lorenzo, what ever meaning that has. But from the affection shown, it means at least something.

Well, that's my read on things. I don't know if it's helpful at all. As I mentioned, I run into this issue a lot, and it's always a tough nut to crack. Tough enough that sometimes I'm the one that cracks. The best way I've found to approach the problem is to think about two statements and a question. They're not from any place particular, just things I came to mind while pounded my head on the keyboard. I have these written on a note card and taped above my computer. 

1 - Find the honesty in the scene.  

2- Find the emotional meaning of the scene.

3 -What's the scene about?

When I think about these things and how they apply to my characters and the scenes they're in, if things go well, something will just click. The answers rarely come right away. They usually come at the oddest of times, when I'm driving, when I'm showering, when I'm shopping for groceries, etc. But when they do come, I always think, "Of course. That should have been obvious." 

Any way I hope some of this helps.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 13, 2015)

Wow, SOOOO helpful.  You're totally right and I think hit the nail on the head.  Of course, every suggestion that brings something to light has that same effect on me, so it's hard for me to confirm this is THE SINGLE problem with the first chapter, but everything you said is exactly what is happening.  I totally see how this keeps the reader at arm's length for the first two scenes and then pulls them closer for the last.  

I've (knowing that now) got a better idea for the second scene, but first let me ask a question about the first.  I reserved the information that it was her son who died because I reveal it later.  I simply want the reader to know that she's there for vengeance, but now considering that...it might be better to announce it from the beginning and let the reader know it while it unfolds to other characters.  It might even increase the impact of the later reveals about why he died.  

The second scene might be better put across if it's more desperate rather than calculating.  I'll have to think about that.  The scene was about two little bits of information--the plan to poison Marcello to get him to incriminate himself (they don't want to kill him, but I've had a hard time getting that across), and the plan to spring Vin from jail.  I think the easiest way to do that one might be to increase the tension.  Rather than talking about the Lucinda and her letter, maybe have Yvette a bit more frantic and she sends the note to the Lucinda in the end of the scene?

I'll have to think about it more.  Thanks so much for this insight, it was just what i needed to clarify why readers don't connect as much as I want them to.


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## goldhawk (Jun 13, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> I just want to invite you all to view this chapter.  I had to trim a couple lines to get it to fit in my portfolio, but this is pretty much how it stands--the best I can do.  http://mythicscribes.com/forums/portfolios/caged-maiden/309-written-red-chapter-1-edited.html



The critical flaw is that this scene does not connect with the reader. How many of your readers have climbed the outside of a building? To engage your readers, you must get them to use their imaginations from the beginning. Here is an opening paragraph as an example:

_When Mr. Bilbo Baggins of Bag End announced that he would shortly be celebrating his eleventy-first birthday with a party of special magnificence, there was much talk and excitement in Hobbiton._​
Right away, the readers are engaged, trying to imagine who Mr. Bilbo Baggins is, where are Bag End and Hobbiton, and just how special is this party going to be. The scene is anchored in the familiar, a party, but introduces a character and places where the readers can use their imaginations.

For your opening, you, as the author, knows what's coming but why should a reader be engaged? There is nothing in your opening that the reader can relate to. You have to give them a familiar foundation for their imaginations or they won't engage.

I don't think your opening is salvageable. There are too many unknowns for it to work. I would start in some other scene.

PS: I take that back. After some thought, it may be possible to use that scene as an opening but you would have to orient your readers first. I would use this as the opening paragraph:

_When she decided to kill the Reverend Leader,  Merciless Doll did not know how dangerous an assassin's lot was. Now, she wished she had never found out._​


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 13, 2015)

Okay, I've done some revamping.  I heard you guys say that connecting to the characters is important and I was missing the mark.  I tried to put in a little of that, since I didn't mention the dead son the first time (trying to build that up a little before opening it wide) and I didn't connect Yvette and Vincenzo (because I just didn't, but I hope I've fixed it now so readers get why she wants to spring him in the second part):


I mention the son here on the first page:



> In a republic run by wealthy families, names held power.  _That_ name held power for another reason.  After six years in hiding, returning to Kanassa had been a mistake.  She realized it the first time she heard the name again–even before Marcello killed her son.



And here on the next:



> What might have been a simple task for a trained killer was looking impossible for an old woman bent on avenging the boy she’d left in the priesthood.



I am hesitant to mention the word assassin because I actually scored a rejection from an agent because they mistook Merciless Doll for an assassin and said strong female leads as assassins felt tedious...so while I like the thought, I am shying away from the word because of that.

I think that's all I changed of the beginning, but I made thorough edits of the second scene.  Will you let me know whether this helps with the motivation part of why this section doesn't connect?  If it doesn't help, is it now more convoluted or explain-ey than the first time?:



> _Twenty months later
> _
> _Freedomday, Horn Moon 28_
> 
> ...


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## Penpilot (Jun 14, 2015)

I think the new version of scene two works a lot better. I definitely get the feeling of what Vincenzo means to Yvette. I think I have solid of a grasp of what's going, so I don't think it's too convoluted.

There are a few spots where the info revealed feels like it's too much at once and where things could be tightened back up a bit.  For example this part. "the love they’d shared more than a decade earlier, and their most recent disagreement that led to his imprisonment" I think it's all relevant to the situation, but it's fed to the reader all at once. I think it would be more effective to shorten this, and what ever gets left out, drop that bit of info in later in the scene. 

Again, the scene works a lot better at getting the emotions out there.


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## Miskatonic (Jun 14, 2015)

When it comes to movie scripts as an example I always read the same kind of advice "you have to grab the audience's attention in the first few minutes", as if the movie is going to tank if you don't. 

Do you feel it's a must to create a memorable opening sequence?


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 14, 2015)

Wow, I've just read so many books without memorable openings, I'm unsure how to answer that.  Is it possible what's memorable for one reader isn't for another?

@ Penpilot, I haven't edited, so I'll take note of that and thanks for pinpointing a couple of the weak areas.  

As far as book openings (because I wasn't trying to debate the best (as in method, not "given this particular example and how to make it strong as it can be) way to do it or even whether there is a best way), I've seen a lot of book openings ranging from the "Once, the land was peaceful, but that all changed when the elves came back" prologues, to the unnamed protagonist awakening on a battlefield disoriented and you don't know who he is or what he's doing.   I've also read joke openings that I haven't gotten until later when I understood the world more.  I've seen a fair amount of "soft" openings where contemplation is more important than action.  I don't necessarily think there's a wrong way in theory, but I can certainly see how certain openings haven't resonated with me, and conclude they must resonate with other readers.  

I guess when I look at this particular work, I can either open with the more successful third section and leave all the other information out, or I can use a prominent omniscient narrator to basically tell all the information I want a reader to glean from these two scenes.  Perhaps those two ideas hold merit, though I prefer to work with what I've got because the book used to open with just Daniela and I don't think it helped the story to omit the societal aspect of the story (since the main goal of the story is social reform) and that just opens a new can of worms--why not strike the whole social story and just make it a cute romance story, because that would probably sell).  I've often wondered why people start their stories where they do, but my reasoning on this one is to show the moment this woman joined up with a smart lawyer in grief, and together, they concoct an elaborate plan to root out corruption from the church.  The thing is, that concept is really important because I don't reveal a lot of those issues for about half the book.  The second scene is supposed to be more immediate, showing some action and decision-making.  

Now, I'm not sure how successful it is as it stands, or even whether it can be improved upon (maybe it's just a stinky concept and so fundamentally flawed), but I feel strongly about establishing that this is a turning point in the fate of the city, so want to show it because the rest of the story is a direct result of that moment.  Is that a weak reason for opening here?  If this isn't working, is it the concept or the execution that's lacking?  Sometimes I feel like good books (that I really enjoyed) have a bit of a slow run-up.  If this opening sort of sets a tone for the deeper issues of the story, is it okay if it isn't full of action?


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## Miskatonic (Jun 14, 2015)

I have an occult detective concept I brainstormed and set aside that basically starts out with everything being absolutely placid and then all hell breaking loose all of a sudden, then jumping forward a day to the lazy MC sleeping on a couch and not waking up till 3 in the afternoon in his mess of a hotel suite, and then introducing his daily routine to give an idea of what a lazy, unambitious slacker he is. 

So it goes from something extreme right into something mundane and ordinary. 

I definitely know what you mean about the "once the land was peaceful..." type openings that are just snore-fests most of the time and just annoying the reader until they get to something good.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jun 14, 2015)

I can remember few openings to books. Endings, the good ones, stick with me forever.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 14, 2015)

I'm the same way.  I remember a couple beginnings, mostly if it was something odd like I was in a POV who didn't know his name, but I guess I'm just not a good judge of what makes for a gripping opening.  Perhaps it's because I've rarely been pulled in from the first word?


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## wordwalker (Jun 15, 2015)

Two of my favorite guides to starting a book come from Lisa Cron and Janice Hardy. 

Also, speaking of Flogging The Quill, Janice has her own "Real Life Diagnostics" feature that runs every Saturday, another chance to get feedback.


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## Miskatonic (Jun 15, 2015)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I can remember few openings to books. Endings, the good ones, stick with me forever.



Agreed. I think openings in movies and TV shows have a bigger impact on the viewer compared to the opening of a book and its impact on the reader.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 15, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> When it comes to movie scripts as an example I always read the same kind of advice "you have to grab the audience's attention in the first few minutes", as if the movie is going to tank if you don't.
> 
> Do you feel it's a must to create a memorable opening sequence?



If I come across a random book that I'm considering buying, my ultimate decision is 90% based on the Amazon sample portion.  If the writer doesn't capture my attention quickly, I'm off to the next book.

There are exceptions to the above:

1. The book is from an author that I read.
2. The book comes highly recommended to me.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jun 15, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> If I come across a random book that I'm considering buying, my ultimate decision is 90% based on the Amazon sample portion.
> 
> If the writer doesn't capture my attention quickly, I'm off to the next book.
> 
> ...


Same here, Brian. 

Even though I might not remember many book openings, I still need the hook to keep reading. 

The hook....how do you create a good one? There's innumerable style choices and story elements that can hook your reader. The only two constants I see that can effectively hook me as a reader are:
1) The author or character has an interesting voice.
2) The subject or action is interesting 

Now when I try to draft, or usually rewrite an opening, I try to focus in on providing the reader with as much of those two considerations as possible. 

In the current novel I've been revising and running through critique partners, I've performed multiple revisions and four complete rewrites, adding characters, changing setting and action, changing the age and race of the opening POV, etc...and that's just scratching the surface. 

You'll spend more time working on a novel's opening than any other part for good reasons. It's your reader's first impression. It's also the cornerstone upon which every other building block rests.


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## Miskatonic (Jun 15, 2015)

BWFoster78 said:


> If I come across a random book that I'm considering buying, my ultimate decision is 90% based on the Amazon sample portion.  If the writer doesn't capture my attention quickly, I'm off to the next book.
> 
> There are exceptions to the above:
> 
> ...



So your approach should be the standard?

Having to immediately capture someone's attention speaks of them possibly having a short attention span to begin with, hence writing that requires a mental investment will bore them if it doesn't have the literary equivalent of car crashes and giant explosions.


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## Tom (Jun 15, 2015)

Miskatonic said:


> So your approach should be the standard?
> 
> Having to immediately capture someone's attention speaks of them possibly having a short attention span to begin with, hence writing that requires a mental investment will bore them if it doesn't have the literary equivalent of car crashes and giant explosions.



Um, but the main point of a good book is that it captures your interest.....So, a book that doesn't snag you quickly is likely not very interesting. A good author can hook you right off the bat, and the hook doesn't even have to be the "literary equivalent of car crashes and giant explosions". Hooks can be subtle, like small worldbuilding snippets that rouse your curiosity. 

If putting down a book that doesn't draw me in right away gives me a short attention span, then I guess I'm happier with a short attention span. And so are a of other people.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 15, 2015)

Miskatonic,



> So your approach should be the standard?



No. People should choose to buy books based on whatever methodology suits them best.  Using my methodology to buy books would be stupid if it doesn't suit you.

Your statement really confuses the crap out of me.



> Having to immediately capture someone's attention speaks of them possibly having a short attention span to begin with, hence writing that requires a mental investment will bore them if it doesn't have the literary equivalent of car crashes and giant explosions.



I can't speak for anyone else, but my reasoning for employing this approach is that I've found that most books that I come across randomly on Amazon don't have the ability to hold my attention.  I tend to think that this is because I'm coming across a lot of books written by new authors who don't have the ability to craft stories well (prior to the self-publishing craze, I shopped for physical copies in bookstores and rarely did I find books that couldn't hold my attention).  So, since I've had some bad experiences that wasted both my time and money, I decided that a new author has to prove the ability to capture my attention before I'll make a purchase.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 15, 2015)

Tom Nimenai said:


> Um, but the main point of a good book is that it captures your interest.....So, a book that doesn't snag you quickly is likely not very interesting. A good author can hook you right off the bat, and the hook doesn't even have to be the "literary equivalent of car crashes and giant explosions". Hooks can be subtle, like small worldbuilding snippets that rouse your curiosity.



Exactly. There are a lot of ways to engage me as a reader.  However, engaging a reader is much more difficult than most new authors seem to realize.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 15, 2015)

There's certainly something to be said for gripping a reader from page one, but isn't it a matter of what speaks to a reader?  I would be bored by paragraphs of setting details, but I've met writers who write the style and their readers who enjoy the style.  It doesn't work for me, doesn't pull me in, but it's something some readers really dig.  So...shouldn't the tone of the opening sort of set the reader's expectations for the story?  If a book does that (as I hope mine does, not by showing an explosion, but a contemplative scene), and Brian puts it down, let's say, wouldn't that simply enough just mean he doesn't like that sort of opening, not that it's "wrong?"  I'm trying to be concise (and not picking on Brian), but if a reader doesn't like the fact that a book opens in a bar, with three guys talking with a bartender who's contemplating suicide because he hates his life and his wife left him for his brother...then isn't it fair to say they should probably put it down in the first few pages because the story doesn't appeal to them and the rest of the book probably won't be much more interesting if they're already not interested?

Some people have called my opening interesting and others have said they didn't feel connected.  I guess that's why I began this thread--to understand whether it's good or crap, and how to determine which it is?  Maybe it's simply BOTH.

I'm using my opening scene to open the door for the reader to understand and enjoy MY story and characters.  Brian may hate it, and that's okay, but I perhaps can't equate it to just a sucky opening?  I would have to understand that the person (because now I do feel like I'm picking on Brian, who might actually like my book if he reads it, who knows) who puts down the book in the first few pages probably judged that they simply weren't going to enjoy the style, the character, or the story.  I've opened a lot of indie books and didn't like them.  Sometimes it was the opening scene and how it flowed that didn't pull me in, more often it was stylistic things like over-wrought descriptions of setting or poor narration choices that immediately told me I wasn't going to enjoy the writing...and if the words become tedious, it's a major jarring that keeps me from enjoying the work.

This is all really useful info, guys.  Perhaps more important than a perfect opening that will captivate people with bright lights and shiny things, an opening ought to introduce characters in a way that allows readers to get to know them and their story in the same tone as the rest of the book?

So maybe there's nothing wrong with my opening...it just won't resonate with everyone.  Perhaps the best we can do is have a thoughtful opening and execute it the best we can.  I'll agree there's always another place to begin a story, but since I've opened with the inciting incidents...I'm not sure how much more forward I can go in time.  I mean... I could open after the inciting incident happens, I guess.  But that doesn't sound wise.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 16, 2015)

> So...shouldn't the tone of the opening sort of set the reader's expectations for the story? If a book does that (as I hope mine does, not by showing an explosion, but a contemplative scene), and Brian puts it down, let's say, wouldn't that simply enough just mean he doesn't like that sort of opening, not that it's "wrong?"



Absolutely.

You aren't trying to pull in all readers, just the readers who will probably like your book.  Right?

I wouldn't want anyone to buy my book if they're not going to like reading it.



> Some people have called my opening interesting and others have said they didn't feel connected. I guess that's why I began this thread--to understand whether it's good or crap, and how to determine which it is? Maybe it's simply BOTH.



I honestly don't know.  Maybe the people who aren't feeling connected simply aren't your readers.  Or maybe the scene just isn't good enough yet.

The way I see it, you've got two choices:

1. Keep working on it until a higher percentage of your feedback is positive.
2. Figure out who your readers are and survey just them. (No idea how to do this...)


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## skip.knox (Jun 16, 2015)

It sounds like it's time to stop worrying about your readers. If you cast your net wide enough, you're going to get a percentage who don't like what you have written. All authors get one-star reviews, right? It's not a problem you can solve.

You have said you're too close to the story to judge, so perhaps the thing to do is to put it away for a few weeks. Still send to agents, if you wish, but just stop thinking about the thing as a writer. Or don't send to agents either, and flat out stop thinking about it.

Come back to it in August. Read it at one sitting *without* pen in hand (that part's really hard for me). Oh wait, it's a novel. So, read three chapters. Then ask yourself if you *like* the opening. If you do, you're done. No more fiddling. If you don't, you have work to do, but that's a different matter.

Assuming you like the opening, then just keep submitting until you run out of agents. All of them. You only need one of them to say yes--it's like searching for a job. And you don't care about why the others said no. Because the one who says yes is going to suggest changes anyway, so why worry about the others?


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 9, 2015)

I just wanted to come back in here and let you all know I changed my opening.  Again.  :eek2:




> 1   Vendetta (Revenge)
> _
> Hay Moon 18
> 
> ...



and this alternative:



> Yvette slipped quietly into a hidden corridor.  Pulling the false painting inward, she crawled through the frame, into  the private office.  Bright wainscoting surfaced the walls and thick draperies cascaded from rods to pool on the tiled floor in graceful puddles.
> 
> Lazaro sat at his desk, partly obscured by a stack of books.  Deep wrinkles lined a plain face bearing a prominent nose.  Whether it had been broken in his youth or the gods bestowed the unsightly feature for a reason, it only added to the cleric’s sinister appearance. Irregular, misshapen, and askew, that nose epitomized the old man.
> 
> ...



any thoughts?  the conversation is going to be about the dead son but it'll be quick.  Then I am probably putting in the lawyer scene


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## Penpilot (Jul 9, 2015)

I really like the first version. I found it very engaging.


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## wordwalker (Jul 10, 2015)

The main thing I noticed about the first version is how much it suddenly Tells us, especially in the first lines: "intent on parleying with her son’s father" and "—the religious leader of the republic—" and so on. Of course you have to reveal some things more directly than others, but doing more than one or two that quickly is a big risk.

After those opening lines, I think whether you rush in with the second approach or "use patience" with the first depends more on which is closer to the level of detail the rest of your story has, and which fits the pace this scene and the next few have. I like the extra touches in the first as well, but that isn't always best. (And there's always your author website to show off the "uncut version.")


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 10, 2015)

I guess I was wondering whether either of these were an improvement over the first version I posted.  I've rewritten this thing so many times now, I'm lost and confused!  ha!  Thanks for letting me know how these two examples are working.  I guess I've lost sight of my goal because I'm trying so hard to just "do it right" and i'm not even sure how to open this thing anymore.  Any further advice you might have, please don't hesitate to let me know.  I'm all ears, because I'm clearly not getting it done on my own, and I've got great crit partners, but I fear they're tired as I am of this book.


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## wordwalker (Jul 11, 2015)

I don't know if this is much help, since First Page Stress is pretty well inevitable, but: Relax, and trust S.S.S.

Sustained Style is Sacred.

What I mean is, we all have (or plan to have) written a *lot,* and in all those pages, the pace and the priorities that work best for us are going to emerge. I can't tell myself I'm going to do heavy poetic description, because after a few pages that use it I'd get tired and start slipping back-- and it's not the same thing as if I'd found that my larger goals needed me to use more poetry and learn to love it. (EG, I _did_ learn to get more colorful when I was setting a scene, because I could get the most mileage out of it when things hadn't started moving yet.) If you think a scene's approach is more detailed, or more rushed, or more dialog-heavy than you can really believe you could write _forever..._ don't write it once, because you'll only backslide on it.

Of course, first chapters are the hardest to use that on, for all the usual reasons. They have All Those Facts we need to make clear, and we're desperate to make the impact as strong as possible, and there are so many different tricks and approaches that might work... sure, maybe. "Sustained Style" doesn't mean each scene is the same, and first chapters always have good reasons to be different. But on the other hand: is it really wise to give your reader an opening that promises so many more bells and whistles (or so much more streamlining) than the rest of the tale can deliver?


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 11, 2015)

Actually, the novel is written.  It's all pretty consistent and any of these openings works for the rest of the book.  None of them creates a tone I don't maintain, though I see your point about not writing vastly differing styles for different scenes, so it makes the book schizophrenic.  I'm sure I've written this opening fully eight or nine different ways, the reason I'm doing this again is that my queries haven't hit with an agent and I've queried a dozen times now.  My main worry was that people didn't "feel" Yvette's motivation and while I originally retained the dead son as a secret to be revealed in the story, folks wanted it up front for tension.  I get that.  But I'm just not sure when to reveal my secrets.  I guess I'm the kinda guy who likes to up the ante only when necessary, but I'm seeing a trend that readers don't like the slow played game.  So...is it more critical that i catch them and reel them in by taking my ace in the hole and licking it and sticking it on my forehead (okay, I was drinking and just didn't want the opponent to think I was bluffing because he was talking shit), or do I put on my smug face and just let it ride and hope there's a sizable pot after the betting's done?

I guess for me, my main concern is HOW do I pull a reader in most fully, so they want to read the rest of the story, and I can resume my preference for more subtlety?  There's a scene late in the book (chapter 30, I think), where Yvette and Thorne test the truth serum out.  She talks about her dead son and he's sympathetic.  he asks why she left the boy in the priesthood and she answers, "I thought he'd be safe there.  I never thought Marcello would kill his own son to get back on me.  But lies have deep consequences sometimes."  TO which he responds with something like, "He's not the boy's father?  That's your lie?" and she says yes.  And he asks who the father is, and she says the doge.  He reacts with shock, because the doge prefers men as lovers, and she laughs when he says that.  She says, "You know what this means, don't you?" he says, "No, what?"  She says, 
"Your brother's truth serum doesn't work."  Basically, I'm trying to set it up in the beginning that she lied about the boy's parentage to protect him, give him a great life as a priest because of Marcello's status.  But Marcello figured it out and when she returns to town, he killed the boy in a huge thing (where he blew up a church to see if he could do it), and it isn't important in the beginning of the story who the real father is.  But maybe that's just an oversight on my part.  Maybe that fact is a material fact to the reader?  TO me, the story was better opened worrying about current issues, but readers say they want to fully understand from the get-go.  Now, again (and this goes back to Brian's Editor threads), how do I make that determination?  To me, I'm happier with it revealed slowly.  BUt readers say they want it.  Who am I to tell them what they want?  I keep thinking in my head, "No, they want a mystery and a reason to ask questions" but maybe that's just foolish of me?  See how difficult this is?  I'm happy with the style, the tone, the characters, and the story, but readers have asked me for specific things they NEED to know/ understand (they say) to get into the story and characters.  I'm perfectly happy to give it to them, but is it really better?  Or am I just writing a story no one cares about?  Or is my method perfectly fine, but just a miss for some folks?

Tricky.  I appreciate your continued advice on this problem.  I apologize for the wordiness of my answer (and lately, every damn thing I post up here), but I wanted to fully explain, so you could see my dilemma.  I love the story.  Other folks said somehting was missing.  This is simply my attempt to write the most engaging opening I can onto this already-written tale that has failed to capture people's attention in the first chapter.  I'd never argue with betas who said it didn't hook them.  It's obviously my failure...but what to do?


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