# Seven elements but an empty slot



## mbartelsm (Jul 11, 2013)

My world is made up of a variety of elements



At the top tier we have the *Void*, nothingness, emptiness
It is followed by the titanic elements of *Light *and *Shadow*; Order and Chaos; Time and space, these can be magically controlled by individuals with an inborn skill.
These are then followed by the element of *Life*, it makes up souls and spirits, feelings and thoughts
And at the end of the spectrum we have the physical elements which can be controlled with magic by normal folk:
*Wind*, all gases
*Fire*, heat/cold and flames
*Metal*, all metals
*Earth*, stones and non metallic minerals
*Wood*, Flesh and wood
*Water*, all liquids
And the problematic seventh slot


This slot used to be occupied by lightning, but I removed it because it was too similar to fire (there is no such thing as electricity in this setting, so it was basically hot glowy stuff, the same as fire), I thought on filling the slot with frost, but since heat and cold are opposites they could well be placed under the control of the titanic elements of Light and Shadow if I treat them separately, leaving both fire and frost with too little to control.

In other words, I need an element to fill the slot that is not lightning/electricity nor frost/ice. If there really is nothing else to fill that space then I will have to work with six elements, but I'd rather not do so since it may seem like the elements have opposites (water and metal, air and earth, fire and wood), which is not the case.


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## Ireth (Jul 11, 2013)

I think it could be fine with just six elements. And if you WANT them to have working opposites, there's the standard earth/air, fire/water, and also metal/wood. iI think the last two is kinda neat as an opposing pair; it makes me think of the endless conflict between dwarves, creatures of earth and metal, and elves, creatures of the woods.


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## ThinkerX (Jul 11, 2013)

'Void' or 'Null'.  Capable of cancelling the effects of ANY of the other elemental magics.  Also used by more esoteric wizards to combine elemental magics in ways normally impossible.  Also noted for providing absolute clarity (truth).


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## Queshire (Jul 11, 2013)

hmmm.... well, the thing that pops out to me first off would be splitting wood into plants and animals. Considering the division between metal and earth I think you should be able to pull that off well enough. Personally if you go that route I'd suggest renaming Life to Soul or Heart and naming the element dealing with animals Life, but I suppose calling it Flesh would work as well.

You could also go with an artificial type of material made via magic or alchemy, sort of like plastic, but I don't know enough about your setting to know if that's possible. 

Let's see.... what else? Hm, I notice that you don't have a way to actually manipulate ice. It's not a liquid, it's not a gas, fire can melt it but at that point it's not ice anymore, actually, that could be an interesting plot point.

Ah, that brings up another point, each of these elements are pretty clear cut, something belongs in one category and one category only, and even for something like a dresser with metallic knobs, the knobs are essentially a separate thing from the wood of the dresser as far as magic is concerned. What about the interplay of these elements? The connection between them? Or what about things that are harder to find a category or would belong to an unintuitive category? What about Lava? That's a liquid so that would be water magic, fire magic could cool the lava but at that point it becomes subject to earth or metal magic and the flames of the lava would be a separate thing from the lava. What about clouds? Clouds aren't actually a gas, they're little beads of liquid or ice surrounding small bits of dust or dirt. Who would control a thunderstorm? An Air mage? Water mage? Fire because of the lightning?

Um.... sorry I can't be more helpful with the actual question of this thread, I hope that these questions help you with your system.


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## Ankari (Jul 11, 2013)

What about gravity?


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## Pythagoras (Jul 11, 2013)

Could smoke be one?


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## Lunaairis (Jul 11, 2013)

plague cause plague is awesome. the corruption of all elements. Rusts metal, kills wood, erodes earth, sours water, and poisons wind. Only fire has a slight advantage over it.


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## mbartelsm (Jul 11, 2013)

Ankari said:


> What about gravity?


Gravity is handled by the combination of Time and Space (light and darkness)



Pythagoras said:


> Could smoke be one?


Well, smoke already fits within the category of wind, so...



Ireth said:


> I think it could be fine with just six elements. And if you WANT them to have working opposites, there's the standard earth/air, fire/water, and also metal/wood. iI think the last two is kinda neat as an opposing pair; it makes me think of the endless conflict between dwarves, creatures of earth and metal, and elves, creatures of the woods.



It's an interesting idea to have wood and metal antagonize, I guess it fits more than my water/metal idea.



Queshire said:


> hmmm.... well, the thing that pops out to me first off would be splitting wood into plants and animals. Considering the division between metal and earth I think you should be able to pull that off well enough. Personally if you go that route I'd suggest renaming Life to Soul or Heart and naming the element dealing with animals Life, but I suppose calling it Flesh would work as well.
> 
> You could also go with an artificial type of material made via magic or alchemy, sort of like plastic, but I don't know enough about your setting to know if that's possible.
> 
> ...



Ok, that's a lot to think about.
I don't really want to split Wood in two categories, it's kind of my favorite, it feels strange, I like strange in small quantities, even though it is probably the best solution.

As much as I hate it, I don't hate the Ice solution as much as having six elements or splitting Wood in two. I guess I just needed someone to clear my head for me, Thanks Queshire

And as lava concerns, it is a problematic substance because of what you said, I had given it some though before and I just kind of left it to Earth and Metal to control depending on the amount of each element that makes it up. The rule of water is something along the lines of: _If something is liquid and it is also liquid when at room temperature then it belongs to water._ Since lava isn't liquid when at room temperature then it belongs to it's respective category (earth and/or metal). It is similar for ice, even though Ice is liquid when at room temperature, it is not liquid when it is ice, thus it cannot be controlled by water.


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## Trick (Jul 11, 2013)

There is of course the Robert Jordan classic 'Spirit' similar to previous suggestions, it ties things together, binds and unbinds.

Also, why not Illusion? Some magic users could pretend to be one of the manipulators of the other elements when in fact their power is over the perception of others... 

No idea if that helps.


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## Lycan999 (Jul 11, 2013)

Plasma could fit the final element. Scientifically speaking plasma is the fourth state of matter with the same properties as a gas except with a high electrical charge. Lightening is a natural plasma and stars are also made of it. It could fit as a almost never used magic, but could still exist to fit the void. To differentiate it from fire you could use fire as heat, cold, and classic fire, and plasma could be a highly volatile element that is almost never used because of its tendency to explode unexpectedly and sent volt of energy racing through anything conductive.


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## Lycan999 (Jul 11, 2013)

I also rather like the idea of paring every element as well. In my universe there is 15 elements, all pared with another except one, the 15th. Five are astral: space and time, spirit and luck/fate, with the last being mind. There are also 10 physical elements: fire and ice, water and energy, air and earth, metal and nature, and finally light and darkness. There are also four primordial concepts, being chaos and order, good and evil. This might not help at all, but I have given it a lot of thought and it works for me.


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## Daichungak (Jul 13, 2013)

Corruption? Decay?


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## TWErvin2 (Jul 13, 2013)

What about Blood?


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## Asura Levi (Jul 13, 2013)

I have the same problem but with the eighth element. In my case, it is built in compass like system and I need that one to exist. They also follow a kind of order were the ordinals seams to be combination of the cardinals and thus I have (clockwise from top) Earth, Metal, Fire, Lightning, Wind, ???, Water, Wood.

In the end, I end up going with 'unknown' as if the elements are still being discovered by the scholars and the compass system is something they developed because it made sense for them.

Yet, I still have the problem.

But as Ireth pointed out, go with the six, unless you have a reason for it to be seven where you can still make it a mystery.


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## mbartelsm (Jul 13, 2013)

Asura Levi said:


> I have the same problem but with the eighth element. In my case, it is built in compass like system and I need that one to exist. They also follow a kind of order were the ordinals seams to be combination of the cardinals and thus I have (clockwise from top) Earth, Metal, Fire, Lightning, Wind, ???, Water, Wood.
> 
> In the end, I end up going with 'unknown' as if the elements are still being discovered by the scholars and the compass system is something they developed because it made sense for them.
> 
> ...



Interesting idea, after all real world physics works under the same premise, if it works then it's probably true, even if it's not complete.
I need to have the seven elements, not only because a great number of things are based on the number seven but also because it is best if they don't have an opposite, and odd numbers make it easier.


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## Svrtnsse (Jul 13, 2013)

How about conflict/contrast as an element.

The power the exists between opposing forces. It would exist at the other end of the scale to Void/Nothing and represent existence. 
Without silence, no sound.
Without light, no darkness.
Without death, no life.

Something like that. It's a bet quasimetaphysiophilosophical, but could be quite interesting if explored.


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## Gecks (Jul 14, 2013)

"Spirit"? though I get the impression this isn't what you're going for.. since you states "physical elements" controlled with magic. Could you make 'magic' itself be one of the 7 elements?

Otherwise I suggest Stone? I can't find anything else on your list that that would easily come under.

(Edit: re-reading your initial post, I realised Stone obviously comes under Earth, so actually I'm out of ideas... unless you split earth down into more elements or something)


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## Asura Levi (Jul 14, 2013)

Well, You could get back to lightning and associate it to energy, the moving force of all beings. It is true similar to fire but the propose differ. It is not more about heating or cooling but moving, so I think it would be fine.


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## Foah (Jul 15, 2013)

I'd say Stone. Given that you have the 4 basic elements of wind, fire, water and earth followed by wood and metal.

Our history tells us our forefathers used wood, then stone, then metals. I think this would make quite some sense. One could argue that stone feels like just a branch of earth - but so is wood and metal in that case  I don't know, I just think that stone would fit in perfectly between wood and metal.


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## Asura Levi (Jul 15, 2013)

Foah said:


> I'd say Stone. Given that you have the 4 basic elements of wind, fire, water and earth followed by wood and metal.
> 
> Our history tells us our forefathers used wood, then stone, then metals. I think this would make quite some sense. One could argue that stone feels like just a branch of earth - but so is wood and metal in that case  I don't know, I just think that stone would fit in perfectly between wood and metal.



But then we are forgetting the basic idea:


> Wind, all gases
> Fire, heat/cold and flames
> Metal, all metals
> Earth, stones and non metallic minerals
> ...



Earth are all non-metallic solids and metal are the metallic ones when wood is related to 'alive' solids such as flesh and wood/plants.
It is not just a matter of what will fill the empty slot but also what will be associated with it.

That is my understanding of his post though


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## Foah (Jul 15, 2013)

My bad, jumped through the posts just quickly scanning for whether or not stone had been suggested ^^ I still do think that the Earth can be modified as to not have stone in it, and put stone seperately. Then you'd have earth for all the landmasses, water for the seas, oceans and rivers, and stone for the mountains, canyons etc.


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## phillipsauthor (Jul 15, 2013)

You could do Sound as your 7th. It's a little similar to Light, but I haven't seen the two of them fall under the same category in any other works. Those who could control Sound could create sounds, manipulate sounds, or even use explosive shock-waves of noise to attack others.


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## Trick (Jul 16, 2013)

phillipsauthor said:


> You could do Sound as your 7th.



That is a great idea! I don't know if the OP will agree but Sound is an immensely powerful thing. It could be powerful enough to take down a mountain or subtle enough to just distract an opponent.


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## mbartelsm (Jul 16, 2013)

I was gonna let this die since I already made my mind with Frost. But it just won't die.
Thank you all for your suggestions but I'm afraid I have already chosen.

PD: Sound is a great idea, it explains a natural phenomenon (sound) but it's too intangible for me to add it.


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## deilaitha (Jul 17, 2013)

Does wood include living plants? That could be a distinction if you wanted. 

Also, what about "vorpal"? Vorpal could be any kind of energy not otherwise explained by the rest of the element system; hence to a non-modern culture, electricity (lightning) might be called vorpal.  I realize that vorpal is usually used as an adjective, but why not make it into a noun if you want? 

Though you can't beat the sound of vorpal blades going snicker-snack.


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## deilaitha (Jul 17, 2013)

LOL sorry I just read your last post and see that you went with frost. Please disregard my last post.


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## Xanadu-King (Jul 19, 2013)

So I have noticed that no one has come up with this yet. Bone... now hear me out, although bone could be placed within another section, such as rot or decay, I say bone because if you look everything that moves, at least within the real world, has bone. Now I will not even involve myself in the ways of the Ents, however even they would need some form of bone structure to control their massive bodies. But I would think bone because bone could be seen as the first true structure ever created, without it nothing that walked could have taken form. I would hope that this is more in your realm of solid/sound objects.


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## Ireth (Jul 19, 2013)

Xanadu-King said:


> I say bone because if you look everything that moves, at least within the real world, has bone.



The various invertebrates of the world beg to differ.


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## Addison (Jul 19, 2013)

Maybe the seventh element is the element that makes magic possible. Mana, Aether, whatever you want to call it. It's also the element which helps to do whatever magic one element alone can not do. You need more than just tides to make a hurricane, more than hot and cold to make a tornado, more than just plants to make a harvest. That could be where Aether comes in.


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## mbartelsm (Jul 20, 2013)

Addison said:


> Maybe the seventh element is the element that makes magic possible. Mana, Aether, whatever you want to call it. It's also the element which helps to do whatever magic one element alone can not do. You need more than just tides to make a hurricane, more than hot and cold to make a tornado, more than just plants to make a harvest. That could be where Aether comes in.


Already have it, but it's not under physical elements, it's what I called in the first post as Life


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