# The Aerial Navy



## Gryphos (Mar 4, 2014)

So I've been toiling with the idea of an aerial navy using airships for my world and I've pretty much got the ranks and roles down.

One thing to consider is crew sizes. In seaships a rather large crew was needed because you needed that many to physically sail the ship and operate the cannons. But for airships you don't really need that many, since all the ship's movements are controlled by a single piloting captain. Thus, the only crew a military ship would need would be people to operate the guns and act as mechanics. Thus, effectively, depending on the size of the ship, I've made it so an average crew size for a ship is around ten, consisting of these roles.

*Captain*
Badge symbol: A goose
Info: Controls the ship and commands the crew.
Prefix: Called 'captain' by the crew, regardless of overall rank in the Aerial Navy.

*Deck Commander
*Badge symbol: A duck
Info: The captain’s second in command. Commands the crew on a base level when the captain is occupied flying there ship, and takes over command should the captain die in the midst of battle.
Prefix: Called 'commander' by the crew, regardless of overall rank in the Aerial Navy.

*Gunnerman (officially, "Aerial Sentry Officer")
*Badge symbol: An owl
Info: Mans a gun and storms the enemy ship during a boarding operation. Trained extensively in marksmanship.

*Mechanic (officially, "Aerial Systems Maintenance Officer")
*Badge symbol: A swallow
Info: Maintains the ship, repairing and replacing components. Repairing engines often requires them to attach themselves to a tether and hang from the side of the ship. Mechanics are known for their acrobatic skill at navigating the ship, leading to their nickname, ‘line monkeys’, referring to how they tether themselves to the ship.

Those are the three specific fields of the Aerial Navy: command (captain and deck commander), gunnery, and maintenance. Only the command field has an overall hierarchy of ranks in the navy, since the other two are singular in purpose and therefore have no prospects for promotion.

Then there is the hierarchy of command ranks. All badge symbols for the command ranks above Aerial Captain are a swan, which is worn alongside the goose or duck badge of ship command depending on the person's current position on a specific ship. Though the badge for every command rank is a swan, it is decorated differently depending on the rank and nation of origin.

*Supreme Admiral of the Sky
*Info: Commands the entirety of the aerial navy, including the wing corps, in charge of overall strategy of a war rather than the specifics of a battle.
Prefix: Supreme Admiral

*High Admiral
*Info: Commands a fleet of airships. Name is reference to the way the admiral’s ship will often be positioned above the rest of the fleet, so as to give the admiral an unobstructed view of the entire battle.
Prefix: Admiral

*Vice Air Admiral
*Info: Just below High Admiral in rank. In a battle they traditionally command the front portion of a fleet, where the fighting is thickest, and act as a deputy to the high admiral.
Prefix: Vice Admiral

*Rear Air Admiral
*Info: The lowest of the admiral ranks. In a battle they traditionally command the rear portion of a fleet, is therefore often the one in charge of carrying out flanking manoeuvres.
Prefix: Rear Admiral 

*Aerial Commodore
*Info: Commands a small amount of ships, not enough to be a full fleet. Can also be in charge of a single unusually large or important vessel.
Prefix: Commodore

*Aerial Captain
*Info: Commands a single vessel of normal variety and importance.
Prefix: Captain

*Deck Commander
*Info: Commands the crew of a normal ship on a base level when the captain is occupied flying the ship, and takes over command should the captain die in the midst of battle.
Prefix: Commander

The name 'high admiral' came from the idea that airship battles would be unique from seaship battles in that they take place on a 3-dimensional plane, meaning ideally the best place to view the battles from would be the top of the formation. That is also why there is no need to distinguish it from its Marine Navy counterpart by calling it 'High Air Admiral', since you can't exactly get a 'High Sea Admiral'.

Also, having a specific rank that corresponds with a specific ship role (like Aerial Captain and Deck Commander) does not mean they can only serve that role. For example, an Aerial Captain could serve as deck commander on a higher ranking Aerial Commodore's ship, and a commodore could serve as deck commander on a high admiral's ship etc.

Then there's the Wing Corps, the section of the Aerial Navy that operates using aeroplanes. Since aeroplanes are a recent technology in my world, the ranking system is a bit more simple. Also, thought it is separate from the standard fleet, it is still part of the navy and therefore answers to the Supreme Admiral of the Sky.

*Chief Marshal of the Wing Corps
*Info: Commands the entirety of the Wing Corps.
Prefix: Chief Marshal

*Wing Marshal
*Info: Commands several squadrons of fighters.
Prefix: Marshal

*Squadron Leader
*Info: Commands a squadron of aeroplanes and their pilots, usually six including the squadron leader himself.
Prefix: Squadron Leader

*Wing Pilot
*Info: Pilots a fighter plane.

The badge symbols for the Chief Marshal and Wing Marshal ranks are both an eagle, while Squadron Leader and Wing Pilot both have a falcon as their symbol.


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## stephenspower (Mar 4, 2014)

A ship should have a relief crew as well, maybe two, depending on how long flights would last.

Lose the badges. Those birds would have each person mocked mericilessly.


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## Gryphos (Mar 4, 2014)

Hey, don't underestimate ducks and geese. Those things can be vicious.

With regards to relief crews, you don't really need a whole crew, that's the point. It only takes the captain to fly a ship, the gunnermen only do stuff once the fighting starts and the mechanics are only needed for fixing things. And when the captain does get tired, he can hand over to the deck commander for a bit.


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## chrispenycate (Mar 4, 2014)

If you are not using magic propulsion you are going to need an engineer or mechanic, or whatever you call him (her, though reading your list it feels like a typical masculised military structure). A communications specialist (I don't care if it's radio, flags, semaphore or carrier pigeons); to organise multiple craft for complex manoeuvres you'd require somebody specialised, though one man could probably handle internal and external comms. Navigator. Not just a gunner, but a man for each weapon, probably more if bombing is a standard tactic – which would seem likely. 

And the ships, being quite slow, would fly day and night several days running, more like ships than aeroplanes. So a relief crew would not be the second officer just holding the steering yoke (and probably that would be more complex than you imagine. Ropes to physical rudders? Moving the the drive motors physically? That's going to take muscle if there's any wind at all. Six hour shifts? Up and down by compressing lift gas with a pump, or releasing excess and having cylinders of compressed hydrogen or helium?  And, of course the flagship would need several times the crew, so lighter armament, or much greater gasbag size, which would make it an immediate target for enemy fire?

Just an idea or two.


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## Gryphos (Mar 4, 2014)

Mechanics (aka line monkeys) would certainly be present on every ship. Communication between ships would be handled via radios used between the captains of the ships. And the captain and deck commander would also handle the navigation. The command field basically encompasses all aspects of governing an airship. And yeah, there would of course be multiple gunnermen per ship, enough to use every weapon aboard.

And again, since it only takes a single person to fly one of these things, the deck commander would do just fine. And the captain can always stop for the night to let both him and the deck commander rest. And also, the ships in my world don't require much strength or effort to operate. It's really more a matter of having a wheel to turn, a lever to change altitude via verticals propellers, and a throttle. Other more specific things like gas release would need to be done, but not regularly.

I've made it so that they use a gas I made up to lift their ships, to get around the real world need for massive balloons. This means smaller balloons, which are also armour plated for military ships to stop easy pot shots bringing down the whole ship.


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## chrispenycate (Mar 4, 2014)

Armour? For lighter than air? That's as bad as flying dragons that are sword proof. And a negative mass gas so you can get more lift? (I suppose you could have a much denser atmosphere so displacing less would get you more lift – hey, how about setting it under water with – no, you're right, very silly). 

Obviously a smaller gasbag will make steering easier, but without power assisted steering it's going to be a full time job. 

OK , radio, and modern radio at that (I had imagined a slightly more primitive set up, as in my youth). But even a system with automatic frequency search needs too much of your attention when you're trying to hold position in a flying flotilla with only air friction to stop you drifting into the next guy.

Sorry. I tend to get rather a rigid idea of how things fit together. And I even get dragons hitching rides on my airships from time to time, and I still try and get the technical details right.


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## ThinkerX (Mar 4, 2014)

Hmmm...

Captains chief job would be to command.  You have him acting as a pilot, which encompasses a demanding, specialized skill set all its own, and doesn't really allow the Captain the time to command.

You also need a 'services' or 'swabby' branch - the guys that do the cooking, cleaning, and see that whatever cargo is aboard these ships is properly stowed.  The cook position would be a full time, dedicated job in and of itself.  Perhaps 'services' would be the division the new recruits get dumped into, until qualifying for one of the other branches.  The ones that don't move into other branches would become cooks, quartermasters, or some such.

A communications officer would also be a good idea.


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## Gryphos (Mar 5, 2014)

Thinking about it, I suppose a communications officer wouldn't be a bad idea.

And yeah, the captain would often be rather occupied flying to actually command his crew. That's why there are deck commanders. The deck commanders are essentially the captain's aide, doing everything the captain has the authority to do but can't at a specific moment due to being occupied.

Of course admirals would have to give complex strategic command of the entire fleet their full attention, which is why they would bring a flag captain with them just to physically fly the ship.

And I could definitely see there being a swabby branch, the guy on a ship who does all the practical work like cooking.

And the armour was more a decision based on the fact I didn't want battles to be a simple 'one hit on balloon and they're down'. So to make up for the weight of the armour plating, the gas has a lot of lift to it. Of course the armour would only be on military ships.

And the steering would be done through a system of rear and side mounted propellers.

And yeah, the wind and such would make flying in those conditions a full time job. But the captain can always land for a bit to rest, or hand over to the deck commander for a shift. They could even, on windless days, point the ship in the right direction, lock the rear engines on, and let the ship drift on its own.


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## ThinkerX (Mar 5, 2014)

> And the steering would be done through a system of rear and side mounted propellers.
> 
> And yeah, the wind and such would make flying in those conditions a full time job. But the captain can always land for a bit to rest, or hand over to the deck commander for a shift. They could even, on windless days, point the ship in the right direction, lock the rear engines on, and let the ship drift on its own.



Again, you are making the 'Captain' into a 'Pilot'.  

And 'landing for a bit of rest'...or 'let the ship drift on its own'?  Not very likely with a military ship, or even a competently run cargo vessel.  Among other things, landing or taking off in a craft like that is a major time consuming operation.

You are looking at a Captain, his first officer to handle the running of the ship when the captains asleep or off duty, plus at least two pilots, one to spell the other.  Plus a communications officer, deck commander (bosun on a sailing ship), mechanics, gunners, and swabby's. Probably around a dozen crew total, though.


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## Gryphos (Mar 5, 2014)

Well in my world captains do do what a pilot would do. It's more efficient this way, since the captain knows best where he wants the ship to be positioned, and it also means the ship can respond faster to a situation.


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## CupofJoe (Mar 5, 2014)

Its an interesting concept.
I can't help but feel that even on a ship with a crew of 10, the captain would control but not steer the ship.
At all times  [and especially in a combat situation] the captain would have to have a full 360 degree sight of what is happening - defence, attack, situation, navigation, logistics, communications etc. They might not be handling every aspect of each of these but they would have to know what was happening.
I'd consider having the role of the Deck Commander as the primary pilot while the Captain can fill in for him.
I just seems very odd to have a Captain tied to one job [no matter how simple] for most of their time while there is someone else running the ship for them. Power may well go to those that wield it...
If you are thinking more along the lines of a WW2 bombers [Lancaster, B17, B24 B29 etc.], which had crews of about 10, then there was no named captain, the pilot was in-charge [and might have had the rank of Captain, but might well have had a lower or equal rank than other members of the crew.]


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## chrispenycate (Mar 5, 2014)

Make the outer canopy self-sealing, and flame proof, and your negative mass lifting gas non-inflammable. Then carry reserves of either compressed lifting gas, or the alchemicals you mix to produce lifting gas (if you can chuck out the remaining goop as ballast, so much the better) – a puncture wound will only lose a few pounds of lift. (tries to imagine Newtonian laws with the amount of anti-inertia that much anti-mass will generate – decides this is not his universe and, after a short thought about feeding dragons some lift gas goes back to crewing)

Military ships tend ti about double the crews tend to larger crews than their civilian equivalents – they're expecting crisis situations. Actually, they're expecting to be crisis situations. Can I have a medical officer or ship's surgeon?

You don't ever land one of those things, you moor it, tether it, anchor it. In friendly territory there are mooring masts set up, in neutral or hostile a guy swarms down a knotted rope and drives in a stake. An encampment of multiple airships looks (from above) like an immense mushroom farm and, since there's no way of digging latrines (I assume a hole in the floor with handles, squat, and let fly. Over cities, cross your legs). Pull ropewalks between ships for socialisation and conferences – radio's all very well but has to be encrypted if your enemies have it too, and the more you use it the more likely they decrypt it. But the craft are terribly vulnerable like that – they couldn't just leap into the air even if they had taken down all the ropewalks before going to bed- just too big, too many dangling ropes.

Another time they might set up the ropewalks is when they're flying over ocean and don't want to get separated. Scattered by a storm could be extremely time consuming; days, not hours. Of course this only works if the drive propellors are on the nacelles, not the lifting bags.

What basic level of technology do the blimpbuilders enjoy? Their enemies? I tend to associate airships with steampunk (and then write an entire multiverse where either airships or submarines are used to transfer between the sheaves; conservation of mass, floating in a fluid with displacement equal to the mass of the vessel. Those ships are as high-tech as spacecraft.


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## Gryphos (Mar 5, 2014)

> Its an interesting concept.
> I can't help but feel that even on a ship with a crew of 10, the captain would control but not steer the ship.
> At all times  [and especially in a combat situation] the captain would have to have a full 360 degree sight of what is happening - defence, attack, situation, navigation, logistics, communications etc. They might not be handling every aspect of each of these but they would have to know what was happening.
> I'd consider having the role of the Deck Commander as the primary pilot while the Captain can fill in for him.
> ...



The captain at the helm does have a full 360 view. He doesn't sit in a cockpit or anything, he stands at the helm, which is usually toward the rear of the ship. The ships are also usually rather small, meaning even at the helm the captain can yell orders at the crew, communications officer, or deck commander. And also, due to the even more precise positioning and manoeuvring possibilities that come with a 3rd dimension, it's even more important that the ship is precisely where the captain wants it, so it's only logical that he would be the one to control the ship's movements personally. If someone else was flying they could mishear his order or not carry it out as effectively as he would want.

The role of the deck commander is less to command the deck and more to organise and carry out the orders given to him by the captain at the helm. For example, while at the helm, the captain can yell "Fire the port carronades!" Then the deck commander would physically get the gunnermen on their guns and give them the signal to fire.



> Military ships tend ti about double the crews tend to larger crews than their civilian equivalents — they're expecting crisis situations. Actually, they're expecting to be crisis situations. Can I have a medical officer or ship's surgeon?



Yeah, I could definitely see there being medics stationed on military ships.



> You don't ever land one of those things, you moor it, tether it, anchor it. In friendly territory there are mooring masts set up, in neutral or hostile a guy swarms down a knotted rope and drives in a stake. An encampment of multiple airships looks (from above) like an immense mushroom farm and, since there's no way of digging latrines (I assume a hole in the floor with handles, squat, and let fly. Over cities, cross your legs). Pull ropewalks between ships for socialisation and conferences — radio's all very well but has to be encrypted if your enemies have it too, and the more you use it the more likely they decrypt it. But the craft are terribly vulnerable like that — they couldn't just leap into the air even if they had taken down all the ropewalks before going to bed- just too big, too many dangling ropes.



Well yeah, they don't set it down on the ground. I would imagine they would lower the ship to a low altitude and send over a line monkey to attach a rope to a tree or rock or something. But that's if they were in the middle of nowhere. In settlements there would be mooring masts and large cities would have specialised docks.



> What basic level of technology do the blimpbuilders enjoy? Their enemies? I tend to associate airships with steampunk



Yes, the world is essentially a steampunk-esque gaslight setting, but also with some early to mid 20th century technology.


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## Queshire (Mar 5, 2014)

Personally I'm with the other people on making captain and pilot two desperate positions. I understand that it's this Cool Thing that you don't want to change, but having it seperate is closer to the standard of real world navies and frankly a ship with the captain serving as the full time helmsman would lose to one with desperate positions for them.


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## Hainted (Mar 6, 2014)

You need to separate Captain and Pilot. Imagine a battle between airships. Your Captain has to maneuver the vessel, communicate with all departments, formulate strategy, communicate with other vessels, and has everyone giving him status updates constantly to help him do all that. It's not feasible, and anyone who's read any military fiction(Like Honor Harrington) will be pulled right out of the story.

And before you say "Well, The Deck Commander can handle that" then he's doing the Captain's job. A REAL Captain's job, because no one in the navy(Aerial or not) wants to make Captain just to pilot the boat. And do some research on Aerial Combat in WW1. They used airships, cause the armor ideas(unless is somehow magical) won't fly, literally.


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## CupofJoe (Mar 6, 2014)

This is fantasy and you can have what ever you want but it will have consequences.
You can make the Captain as Pilot work but as it will [as I and others have pointed out] have it's down side/complications.
This in itself could be a good plot/story device.
I quite like the idea of an over worked Captain trying to deal with everything in the heat of combat. It will certainly sort out the _good_ from the _great_!
I can just see a stressed Captain pounding the table as they argue their actions and what went right or wrong in an after-action debrief... _If only I'd had the time, Damn it!_
[Now I'm seeing Edward James Olmos in a smoky room looking very pissed off...]


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## Gryphos (Mar 6, 2014)

> And do some research on Aerial Combat in WW1. They used airships, cause the armor ideas(unless is somehow magical) won't fly, literally.



I've done research into airships in the real world and found that their real world use was far different to what I'm thinking for my setting. Less bombing from above, more bombarding with guns and fleet-on-fleet action. The armour plating around the balloon is a decision to strengthen the airships. While in real life a ship like that would be too heavy to fly, in my world they lift airships using a made up gas with immense lifting power, allowing not only for heavier ships but also smaller balloons, better to suit the close distance fleet battles.



> This is fantasy and you can have what ever you want but it will have consequences.
> You can make the Captain as Pilot work but as it will [as I and others have pointed out] have it's down side/complications.
> This in itself could be a good plot/story device.
> I quite like the idea of an over worked Captain trying to deal with everything in the heat of combat. It will certainly sort out the good from the great!
> ...



And yes, this was basically the idea I had. Captains have a lot of duties and that's what makes them special. Anyone can fly one of these ships, but only a captain can fly it the way he wants it to be flown. They can't trust anyone else to fly their ship in the heat of battle when everything is at risk. Plus, you need to consider the chain of command within the fleet. The guys at the top need to be assured in the loyalty and understanding of the guys at the bottom, the individual captains. And they need to have that direct link of command to the very movements of every ship. It's not ideal for the captains to fly the ships, but it's dangerous for them not to.


Now for a different topic. I've been wondering about what effect an aerial navy would have on ground forces. Basically, would aerial navies such as this make standing armies obsolete?

It's an interesting question. Airships can move faster than ground troops and aren't hindered by terrain, and unlike aeroplanes, they don't need to return to base after every mission. So long as they don't run out of fuel etc. they can keep acting on the front line of a war. And if a air navy was to meet a ground army, it could beat it fairly easily with bombardment.

However, some kind of soldier force would be needed to take over a city once it's been defeated by bombardment. And there would probably need to be ground going special forces units.

I don't think an army would be totally taken over by the aerial navy, but it would certainly receive some cuts in favour of the navy.


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## ThinkerX (Mar 6, 2014)

> Now for a different topic. I've been wondering about what effect an aerial navy would have on ground forces. Basically, would aerial navies such as this make standing armies obsolete?



No, for several reasons.

First off, the 'other side' is going to be working overtime to come up with a counter of some sort - radio controlled rockets, maybe.

Second, blimps are fragile, and awkward to maneuver - they have serious limitations.  If the other side has somebody capable of conjuring a tornado or hurricane, or if the airships are in an area subject to such, they got major problems.

Third, airships are not completely self contained.  They need repairs.  The crews need food, clothing, and medical attention.  This means bases with sophisticated industrial centers, or direct access to such.  How long does the blimp fleet stay airborne if the blimp factories are reduced to rubble?


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## chrispenycate (Mar 6, 2014)

Airships are sensitive to weather conditions (particularly wind), don't like mountain terrain at all, are very visible from a considerable distance, and essentially, bombardment, whether it's by artillery or from aircraft, has not proved very effective against disciplined infantry. It's unlikely they can carry enough weight of bombs to be effective against fortifications, so artillery and sappers are probably still required (and they are the elements, along with supplies of munitions, food and water, that slow everything down). Railways can go as fast as your airships, although they are excessively dependent on there being rails. And more even than fuel, you'd have to keep going back to stockage points. Which have to be resupplied somehow. 

Defeating a city by bombardment? Not fast, and not reliably. Fun to use against cavalry, and (since you've specified radio) spotting. It's an excellent addition to existing forces, but hardly a replacement.


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## Hainted (Mar 6, 2014)

If you want armored airships, go for a zeppelin base(rigid balloon) and build the rest of the airship on the outside of the balloon.In fact you could have some hallways pass through the balloon. To keep a battle away from one shot and done, compartmentalize the balloon.Even if it's hit you don't lose the whole bag, just the damaged sections. 

Now guns aren't going to be big. In fact the largest gun on a airship will be the size of the boarding cannons on a naval ship. Able to be carried by one or two persons. Why? Recoil! A navy vessel can be overturned by firing it's larger guns, and your airship is lighter, and doesn't have the water to help absorb the impact so a large gun will not work. and reason number two works into the next consideration....

WEIGHT! Your Ariel Navy is going to be NASA level obsessed about weight. Every crewman, gun, uniform, utensil, bullet, tack, etc... will be weighed, and accounted for, and depending on mission requirements could even lead to crew being left behind or swapped out because they put a little on.

Crew: your looking at about 40 people for a "small" vessel. Captain, CO, Dedicated back-up pilot, dedicated comm, dedicated navigator, Back ups for each position, Engineer, 6 mechanics to cover shifts, Doctor, and at least 2 assistants, Dedicated support staff including Cook, aides for officers, Bosun or Quartermaster, Gunnery crew(at least 2 for each gun) and a gunnery chief, plus Midshipmen out the wazoo. Midshipmen would be underage children that act as gofers, and extra hands for maintenance, as well as lookouts since your captain isn't going to have a complete view of the area around his ship.(The bag at least will get in the way, especially if he's piloting from the back(as you suggested) which would really be more of a Command position.

OH! and Marines. The Marines would be your "ground forces" as well as your boarding parties. Figure 2 6 man rifle squads and a CO of their own. And while they are on your ship they ARE NOT part of the Navy ,and don't count as part of the 40 man number above,and have their own bunks, and areas. They will probably be trained to back up your gunners, and repel boarders, and act as MPs on board.


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## Hainted (Mar 6, 2014)

Read Leviathan by Scott Westerfeld for a look at fantasy style airships, and the crew requirements


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## GroundedTraveler (Mar 7, 2014)

Interesting discussion.. 

someone mentioned the WW2 bomber setup with 10 man crews of bombers. If you captain and pilot are the one in the same, it may very well end up feeling like this. Especially if airships are more about air superiority and bombing runs than shifting of troops.

For another look at a "small crew" ship, check out the Firefly series. They start out with 5 before the passengers are added. Yes, it is a "cargo" ship, but might give you an idea of what a split pilot/captain would look like even in a small crew.  

As has been mentioned a few times, think redundancy. Military is about making sure the ship doesn't lose its effectiveness if a single guy gets hits by a stray bullet.

In any case, I like reading about this. I just finished a novella featuring airships quite heavily, and I realized that I just picked a 6 man crew for a cargoship out of the air (or subconciously from Firefly) without really thinking so much about it. Will make me think for further books.


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## chrispenycate (Mar 7, 2014)

Hainted said:


> If you want armored airships, go for a zeppelin base(rigid balloon) and build the rest of the airship on the outside of the balloon.In fact you could have some hallways pass through the balloon. To keep a battle away from one shot and done, compartmentalize the balloon.Even if it's hit you don't lose the whole bag, just the damaged sections.
> 
> Now guns aren't going to be big. In fact the largest gun on a airship will be the size of the boarding cannons on a naval ship. Able to be carried by one or two persons. Why? Recoil! A navy vessel can be overturned by firing it's larger guns, and your airship is lighter, and doesn't have the water to help absorb the impact so a large gun will not work. and reason number two works into the next consideration....
> 
> ...



! That's it; more like a sailing ship than an army. And the lower tech you are, the more crew you need. The R101 had a crew of forty-two, including a steering coxswain and an altitude coxswain (and a meteorological officer, plus a chief wireless officer which suggests they had an assistant sparks), and was certified flyable by fifteen; but this was a civilian craft, and I can't see stewards outnumbering weapons specialists, nor comfort for passengers outweighing survival against damage caused by enemy action.

Would they really need the marines? Boarding would be an extremely hazardous operation, surely not one you would plan for? 

One of the reasons that it's so much fun writing airships is how big they are. My transdimensional (Oh, and I wrote it well before the Baxter/Pratchett long earth books) one is over a kilometre in length (I was going to add a URL to some of those stories, being vain, but it seems I've not yet qualified for links/attachments); can you imagine a squadron of these? When you picture a field of mooring masts, it's much bigger than a modern airport, and you need a rail network between them for resupplying and winching down the personnel; with high winds, keeping them untangled… unless you compress down the gas, bring them all down to the ground and tether them to tent pegs. Strong tent pegs, set in concrete blocks.

Actually, the airship I mentioned is ultra high tech, remote controls and motors everywhere, and carries a crew of thirty. There again, it is a scientific/diplomatic expedition — minimum weapons.

When you release a bomb big enough to do any real destruction the craft's going to jump like a hot air balloon when you dump ballast, and probably (depending on the elasticity of the envelope) stay jumped. Not convenient for precision aiming. Tracer? Since your protection is largely keeping out of range of enemy fire, precision is critical, and it's not going to be as easy with airships as planes.

Hmm, I suppose both sides have them?


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## Gryphos (Mar 7, 2014)

> One of the reasons that it's so much fun writing airships is how big they are. My transdimensional (Oh, and I wrote it well before the Baxter/Pratchett long earth books) one is over a kilometre in length



I can imagine, but my airships are quite a bit, actually quite a lot, smaller. The deck of an average sized military ship in my world is about the size of a large sailing boat or a small yacht, which is really the main reason for the small crew size.

There are some larger ship varieties, equating to about the size of a galleon. These would have relatively much larger crews, but these sizes of ship are rare. There are even a few super ships, which would be roughly the size of a modern warship. But only a few of these exist and are only owned by the most powerful nations.


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## Saigonnus (Mar 8, 2014)

I am experimenting with an aerial navy in a modern fantasy I am world-building for, so they are equivalent in size to the ships we have now. My ships (since they are supposed to be "modern") are equipped long range bolt-throwers (equivalent to fireballs, ball lightning or anti-magic ammunition) and "distortion fields" that hide their presence from enemies. Commonly, they have magic-users aboard and at least a unit of shock troops on board that use gliders to raid other ships, levitation charms to save their life if they fall and some even have short-range teleportation devices for attacking beyond the conventional weapons.

In many cases the largest ones serve as floating command centers for the military activities below, or for high-altitude reconnaissance.


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## wordwalker (Mar 9, 2014)

Gryphos said:


> Now for a different topic. I've been wondering about what effect an aerial navy would have on ground forces. Basically, would aerial navies such as this make standing armies obsolete?



I think every military idea in history has someone claiming this (alone with many more who ignore it and want to "fight the previous war"). Agreed, the main limits of an airship force are their cost and flying limitations, especially once everyone starts responding with antiairship weapons.

Really, *nothing* makes standing ground armies (is that a redundancy?) obsolete. Other forces may do more and more of the work, by swinging enough power to win part of a battle on their own terms. But history always shows you need those "boots on the ground" too-- if only because they're cheap enough that the enemy will always have some there, and your advanced forces will never root out all of them without your own ground forces finishing the job. And then they're the only way to properly hold territory once you take it.

Infantry could be terrorized by cavalry, but not when they set their spears right and picked good ground. Troops got pinned down by WWI machine guns and outraced by tanks in WWII... but the troops still did their own fighting, and they started carrying rocket launchers to deal with the tanks. The Russians swept into Afganistan with helicopters dropping strike forces into the mountains... until the Afganis got shoulder-launched Stinger missiles. Weapons change, but there are always "ground-pounders" left that soak up part of the maneuver's force and have to be dug out on the ground.


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## wordwalker (Mar 9, 2014)

Two other military ideas that might apply:

World War I air power started out with scouting flights (including spotters for artillery), and from there evolved into adding bombers and fighters. If you have airships but not the real speed or wind-independence of planes, they might be used more to guide forces and less often to attack on their own.

Add to that, airships might be very cautious getting close to an enemy, since they don't have the mobility to retreat as easily (especially against the wind). I can see airships playing a sort of long-range game of chicken with each other, one force deciding how close to venture into enemy territory and watching for enemy ships (with both sides easy to see at a distance-- cloud cover permitting!) that might move in and trap them. A ship that could simply fly above the reach of enemy ships would have a real advantage, at least as long as it could handle the altitude. (*Edit:* up there they couldn't see much of the ground action (without longer-range magic scrying?) but they could watch for airships below and then drop to observation level.)

And of course, the more weather magic you have...


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## Gryphos (Mar 9, 2014)

> And of course, the more weather magic you have...



Yes, I can imagine such magic being deadly effective against airships. But in my world there is no institutionalised magic or battle mages or anything like that. Magic is actually something only practiced on a small scale by occultists, and even then only the few most extremely powerful ones would be able to do anything like alter the weather. Magic is actually even outlawed by almost all governments, but that's another topic entirely.

I do really like the whole psychological warfare idea about the two fleets toying with each other at a distance, each one waiting for the other to make the first move. I can imagine there being standoffs that last whole days before the battle actually starts.


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## wordwalker (Mar 9, 2014)

That's pretty much how I see it. It's part of naval tactics too: you're very careful not to risk your fleet unless you know the odds are in your favor, because ships sink so completely (unlike armies that lose a fight), and then you've wasted such an _expensive_ asset.

If they can't control the weather, how well can they _predict_ when the winds and clouds are coming, or even interfere with each other's probes of it? And that's the kind of hidden power that would let any side could keep someone around that gives them an edge without publicly admitting they're using magic-- which is how governments usually use "forbidden weapons."


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## Gryphos (Mar 9, 2014)

> If they can't control the weather, how well can they predict when the winds and clouds are coming, or even interfere with each other's probes of it? And that's the kind of hidden power that would let any side could keep someone around that gives them an edge without publicly admitting they're using magic-- which is how governments usually use "forbidden weapons."



They can't really predict the weather either, as obviously no things like meteorological satellites exist. The best they can do is get vague predictions of wind movement and possible direction based on current readings in other places. However, with battles like these, that knowledge, however unreliable, can become a deciding factor on where and when battles are fought. Admirals would wait until a favourable wind or lack of wind to attack. But as I said, the predictions are sketchy at best.

The forbidden weapon idea is interesting, but the thing is that the kind of magic occultists use is really small scale. Most often they can simply do basic illusions, subtle mind manipulation, stuff like that. Only a few can do advanced things like weaponised magic and physical manipulation of objects. Really, I would imagine only a small handful could change the weather.

And even then, if an occultist was that powerful, they probably couldn't care less about politics or wars and would feel no loyalty to anything other than the Occult. And then of course the governments themselves would have to trust an occultists, which I doubt any but the most determined (or forward thinking) could bring themselves to. The fear and hatred of magic runs deep in society.


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## ThinkerX (Mar 9, 2014)

> And even then, if an occultist was that powerful, they probably couldn't care less about politics or wars and would feel no loyalty to anything other than the Occult. And then of course the governments themselves would have to trust an occultists, which I doubt any but the most determined (or forward thinking) could bring themselves to. The fear and hatred of magic runs deep in society.



You would be surprised, I believe, to discover just how fast even the most pious sorts would cut a deal with the devil in a dire situation - or in all too many cases, just for a momentary advantage.

As to the motivation of the occultists, three glaringly obvious possibilities leap to mind:

1) The government has members of the occultists immediate family as hostages in a secure, secret location;

2) The government offers the occultists a pardon for the crime of being able to work magic; and

3) The occultists have a vested interest in something near or in the combat zone, and see conjuring a storm to aid one side or the other as a possible means of getting to or protecting that interest.  Said item/location would be of major occult importance.


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## Gryphos (Mar 9, 2014)

Yeah, I could definitely see any of these happening, and in fact that could make a very interesting plot point in and of itself: One side of a war managing to harness occultists to its advantage. But in any case it would be exceptionally rare and probably a move made out of desperation on the government's part. Occultists, always at risk of the noose should their crimes be discovered, go to great effort to keep their practices secret, shoving the candles under the bed when the constables come visiting. This, together with their magical abilities to avoid capture, mean very few occultists are ever actually convicted.

But regardless, should one side somehow manage to get a enough occultists to conjure storms (which would have to be quite a lot, or as said previously, one or two super powerful ones), they would be able to reign havoc on any enemy fleet.


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## Hainted (Mar 10, 2014)

Basic Illusions and subtle mind manipulation would wreak havoc on an army or another airship Captain/pilot. Heat of the battle, and he exposes his flank to a broadside, or empties his pistol into his own crew? Not to mention the occultists don't have to be willing participants. Just look at all the horrible things our government did to it's own citizens trying to get a slight advantage over the Russians, and all of a sudden those arrested occultists are training special liaison agents that are there to "observe" the battles....


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## Gryphos (Mar 10, 2014)

Hainted said:


> Basic Illusions and subtle mind manipulation would wreak havoc on an army or another airship Captain/pilot. Heat of the battle, and he exposes his flank to a broadside, or empties his pistol into his own crew? Not to mention the occultists don't have to be willing participants. Just look at all the horrible things our government did to it's own citizens trying to get a slight advantage over the Russians, and all of a sudden those arrested occultists are training special liaison agents that are there to "observe" the battles....



Indeed, occultists would be a very potent force on the battlefield and dangerous to the world in general, which is a big part of the reason magic is outlawed, sort of an unofficial Geneva convention thing about nations, should they have access to such powers, not using them. Of course rules would get thrown out almost as soon as such an opportunity did present itself to a nation an that nation would have a huge advantage in battle. But as I said, such a thing would require that government to actually apprehend an occultist, which is something the Constabulary hardly ever manages to do.


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