# Warning, very graphic question!



## Aidan of the tavern (May 31, 2012)

This is going to be a gory question, so apologies if anyone finds it insensitively handled, this is not something I would normally want to ask about, but I feel I have a duty as a writer to be accurate.  It concerns someone falling to their death, from a tower of about 1000 feet, and either landing on flagstones or going through a roof.  Basically I don't know the physics.  Would they spin as they fall, or would it be like freefall where they stay in one position.  Also (I probably won't describe it so graphic in the book) but what state would the body be in?  Presumably all bones would be broken, but if it went through a slate roof would it even be in one piece?  Sorry, I'm not normally like this.


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## Kit (May 31, 2012)

With similar apologies for sensitive subject matter.... I just Googled "jumpers from the Twin Towers" and found photos, video, descriptions. Try that.




(I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally hope that anyone who was horrified by your post clicked away before going on to mine.... I don't mean to be insensitive either, but I've worked in hospitals for twenty years and that renders one fairly hard-boiled in the face of death and dismemberment...)


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 1, 2012)

The slate roof might actually slow their descent. But you don't want the person to live, do you?  I mean, skydivers in free fall have lived (with all their bones broken).  

That being said, I've watched a video about a BASE jumper who hit a bridge and basically gets ripped apart on impact.  This is a link for a video, but it was better on PBS.  Maybe you can find that. man hits a bridge at 120mph - YouTube

It's tamed down, on PBS you see the impact and it's pretty horrific.  I don't mean at all to lessen the awfulness of this incident by posting this, but it's the only of its kind I've personally seen, and this is research.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jun 1, 2012)

Kit said:


> With similar apologies for sensitive subject matter.... I just Googled "jumpers from the Twin Towers" and found photos, video, descriptions. Try that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To be honest Kit, the reason I felt kind of bad for posting this was because it was the falling man photo from 911 that got me thinking.  I should point out that this is just research as opposed to macabre curiosity.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jun 1, 2012)

anihow said:


> The slate roof might actually slow their descent. But you don't want the person to live, do you?  I mean, skydivers in free fall have lived (with all their bones broken).
> 
> That being said, I've watched a video about a BASE jumper who hit a bridge and basically gets ripped apart on impact.  This is a link for a video, but it was better on PBS.  Maybe you can find that. man hits a bridge at 120mph - YouTube
> 
> It's tamed down, on PBS you see the impact and it's pretty horrific.  I don't mean at all to lessen the awfulness of this incident by posting this, but it's the only of its kind I've personally seen, and this is research.



Thats so sad, I didn't even realise it was possible.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 1, 2012)

Admittedly, skydivers only live if they land on soft earth, and the internal trauma was so severy (collapsed lung, many broken bones) if they hadn't had emergency medical treatment they'd have died, but it IS possible.  Anyways, I hope some of what I posted helped you in some way.  I wrote a character whose wife and son were thrown from a tower to their deaths in front of him, but I never detailed what happened to the bodies.  I guess it was too hard a question for me to answer what condition they were in, so it was easier forme to only let the reader assumed he buried them but didn't want to talk about it.


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## SeverinR (Jun 1, 2012)

I thought 1000 ways to die, had a skydiver chute didn't open, I thought she hit the parking lot.
She did not belong on this show, she lived.

As for the falling action:
Some fall without tumbling or spinning, some spin, some roll, some tumble and roll, depending on how the wind hits them.


Post impact: some look like water balloons after impact, some have little blood at all. Instant death is not a given. 

Crash site: A10 pilot ejected, chute never deployed. Found in sitting position, the sun visor was the only thing missing, took several hours to locate in the summer desert sun. I arrived a day later, temps in 110's. Seat(when I saw it) was clean of any fluids or stains.

AF Security police(6yrs), EMT(3yr) and a nurse for over 18 yrs, so I too am hardened to graphic details.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 1, 2012)

So this is a little gross, but because we've already crossed the line in the name of research...

I had a mouse in my house last winter.  So as much as I abhor suffering, I hate hearing scratching.  I set a trap and one night about midnight I heard it snap.  I went to fetch it and was horrified when the mouse was not dead, but kicking stuck in the trap.  It hadn't gotten its head stuck and instantly killed, but its arm, and the whole shoulder was crushed in the trap, but it was struggling to free itself.  I couldn't let it go outside because it was maimed, but I couldn't let it suffer either.  So I woke my husband near to tears ( I was pregnant at the time and very squishy feeling) and told him what happened.  He got out of bed (a testament to how awesome he is when I'm feeling weak) and took the mouse and put it in a plastic bag, trap and all, and dropped a cinder block on it.  

Honestly, for such a small animal, it was a ghastly scene.  It exploded, blood covering the whole inside of the bag.  I mean, I was glad it was no longer suffering, but it was still pretty sick.  

On that video I posted, that's sort of what happened the the BASE jumper.  His impact was shown on the original airing I saw, and you could see the blood spray and the leg come off.  It was really messy.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jun 2, 2012)

I wonder how reliable films are.  I know some like the Bond films especially do a lot of stunts for real.  I suppose Saruman rolled when he fell, but then Gollum didn't.


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## Will (Jun 2, 2012)

I imagine the way in which one falls (spinning, tossing, bellyflopping straight down, etc) would depend on how they fall. Were they pushed? Did they slip/trip? Did they try to grab a hold of something to stop themselves? Did they fall face first or backwards? Most scenario's would include spinning/turning in the fall. The only one that I assume wouldn't is if one was to fall face down/first.

As far as hitting a slate roof goes, is it definately decided that the body has to crash/smash through the roof? Depending on the roof materials, one could just smash/splat/bounce on the roof. Regardless, if the body does or doesn't go through the roof, I think it is highly likely that it would be in more than 1 piece. You may find that an arm/a leg/a head/a hand/a foot is left on the broken roof, whilst the remaining bulk of the torso follows through to the ground below.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 2, 2012)

I agree.  And when that happens, there would probably be a big spray pattern.  Think of the force, it's like stomping a ketchup packet. okay not quite, but you get the drift.


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## Chime85 (Jun 2, 2012)

At 1000 ft you are looking at around 350m. As cold as it sounds, think of that as a track run in Phys Ed. Not only that, but the human body is weighted heavily from the torso, up; that's going to give alot of spin from the lighter legs. It's a cruel fate, I admit, but if you plan to write it into your story, then take this aweful moment and show the readers what it is to live this horrific moment.

As for the landing, despite the "cushion", it's not going to be pretty. one moment::: ********SPOILER (GRAPHIC MOMENT) ALERT******


on impact (given that the roof or flagstones is at the last 100 feet or so), the rooftop will immidiately shatter the bones. The head, ribcage and the spine. There will be blood and yes, there will also be alot of skin torn. It is a horrid fate (credit due, you warned us), but it is unfortunate that such a horrid fate does have the price tag of a horrid description.

Chime x


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jun 3, 2012)

Chime85 said:


> At 1000 ft you are looking at around 350m. As cold as it sounds, think of that as a track run in Phys Ed. Not only that, but the human body is weighted heavily from the torso, up; that's going to give alot of spin from the lighter legs. It's a cruel fate, I admit, but if you plan to write it into your story, then take this aweful moment and show the readers what it is to live this horrific moment.
> 
> As for the landing, despite the "cushion", it's not going to be pretty. one moment::: ********SPOILER (GRAPHIC MOMENT) ALERT******
> 
> ...



Thanks, I'm glad my graphic thread isn't putting off the newer members.  

I suppose a lot depends on how you describe a death scene.  I've read many books where someone falls off a tower, or over a cliff, and thats about all the info we get.  Steven Erikson for one often describes the gory details.  If I did choose to do it that way it would probably add a lot more shock factor to the death, as well as avoiding the cliche that if someone disappears over an edge they are likely to come back later on.  I suppose its the same if you're writing a death by burning or impalement or what-not, it just depends how far you take the description, none of them are pleasant to witness, but we as authors have the option of brushing over that.  

Oh, and thanks for putting up with me guys.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 3, 2012)

I just wrote a burning scene that I think is pretty good.  It's seen through the eyes of a witness and it was a struggle to put in the details without being too scientific about the matter.  So I did a little research and made sure emotion was present, but falling is a little different because there's a moment of impact that means death, wheres with in my passage, my character notes how twelve priests are being burned individually for the sole impact of making a statement:  Defy the leader and die horribly.  I wasn't sure how much an ordinary man would know about torture and execution, but I wanted to show how he could recognize the difference between intended agony and a merciful death.


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## Justme (Jun 4, 2012)

First, I will like to know where the fall is viewed from, in the readers eye. This in my eye would alter the entire perception of the fall. I remember when in Harry Potter, Dumbledore did not rotate and was depicted in slow motion as it was in the first die hard movie. I don't think a fall of any height would impart spin, unless the aerodynamics created it as in a fan moving through air. 

I would say that the popularity of the person falling in the story should reflect the impact on the ground. As in an evil doer being impaled upon something that imparts justice or revenge in his death.


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## SeverinR (Jun 6, 2012)

For spin or twist, I would try to find sky divers to discuss this, Wind and body position matters after a distance.

For those not squimish, WTC footage has some jumpers,  the few I noticed did not seem to tumble.


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## gavintonks (Jun 6, 2012)

I got a lift to college once and the guy was a parabat instructor, he said guys chute didn't open and all bones snap body liquifies on impact and liquid pressure detaches the head, says its a bag of jelly

we had some jumpers off a very rall bridge and dust clouds settle on the bodies so they wait a day or 2 and look for them with dogs as the site of impact is covered by the dust [also of course depends on height]

a good friend committed suicide jumped off a building and she lay on a dumpster like she was asleep but nothing left of the back of her head squashed flat basically and big dent in the aluminum dumpster


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## Lightryu68 (Jun 11, 2012)

my thought on this is. 

1. Body can spin or not that is all on air and other things that have happened.

2. If the person hits flagstones then it its hitting a brick wall so simple, broken bones, internal bleeding and organ damage and if any of those flagstones aren't level then possibly splits in the skull. If a roof most definite the body will go through the roof unless its made of metal or stone. When going through the rough so much can happen tearing of skin and detaching arms its crazy. 
3. In both cases if the body is not flattened by the impact then the body might go rigid on impact it all depends on how fast rigamortis sets in
if you really wanted to you can research the the actual physics by taking the equation for how hard an object will hit  the ground when falling. that one is simple mathematics although i have forgotten the equation.
this all sounds bad yes but its what happens. 
been through EMT training and my father was and EMT I am fairly numb to describing things like this


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## krunchee (Nov 2, 2012)

I didn't read all of the replies so sorry if anyone has already said any of this. 

As a former skydiver I can tell you that without training the body is difficult to control in free fall. It's takes about 10 seconds to cover your first thousand feet and it's at that point you reach terminal velocity. Every thousand feet after that takes about 5 seconds.

Before BASE jumping you learn to fly your body in sub-terminal air, without a controlled exit or that training people tend to roll through the air. People have died from 300 feet and people have lived from 14,000. 

The slate would probably crumble if it wasn't reinforced and could well slow the rate of decent enough for survival. 

Cheers, 
Zach


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## CupofJoe (Nov 2, 2012)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> I wonder how reliable films are.  I know some like the Bond films especially do a lot of stunts for real.  I suppose Saruman rolled when he fell, but then Gollum didn't.


No matter how "real" the stunt is, they are not at all accurate. For films, the Stuntperson is usually landing on something nice and soft and squidgy so they gently roll on to their back in mid air to spread the load and once you remove the safety and arrester lines with cgi even the best stunt isn't really real any more...


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## WyrdMystic (Nov 2, 2012)

You might also consider your POV character -some people would watch the person fall, some would even get their mobile phones out and video it - others would close their eyes or turn away and flinch when they hear the thud. Describing the scene isn't just about keepingthe science accurate, but also being true to your characters.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Nov 2, 2012)

krunchee said:


> I didn't read all of the replies so sorry if anyone has already said any of this.
> 
> As a former skydiver I can tell you that without training the body is difficult to control in free fall. It's takes about 10 seconds to cover your first thousand feet and it's at that point you reach terminal velocity. Every thousand feet after that takes about 5 seconds.
> 
> ...



I'd kind of forgotten about this thread, but thats useful to know, thanks.


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## Zero Angel (Nov 2, 2012)

krunchee said:


> The slate would probably crumble if it wasn't reinforced and could well slow the rate of decent enough for survival.



That is the point I wanted to make as well. It's why they design cars to crumble in. If it's rigid, then the force is transferred. If it crumbles, then it absorbs the force before you. If you can absorb the shock by breaking other things (before your body), then it is possible that your body will not have to absorb the shock and can survive. Otherwise, all of that force will snap through your body and break you. 

You can experience some of this from jumping from dangerous (or not-so-dangerous) heights as well. If you just jump up really high and fall back down, the tendency is to allow your knees to bend. This transfers the energy from being absorbed solely on your shins to throughout your leg and gives you added time to slow down, but this is limited by the elasticity of your tendons, ligaments and other bits (not a biologist). 

If you've ever been mad enough to strike a wall with all your force and the wall did not bend or break, you probably broke your hand (or you are weak). If the wall bent in, then the wall probably absorbed the force instead. Just as your hand can be fine punching through a wall, your character could feasibly live punching through a ceiling, although then having to deal with the landing under and any debris from the roof. It would be very unfortunate for your character to survive the fall only to have the ceiling collapse on him and kill him.

One way of thinking of this is your jumper is the hand of a karate chop while the roof is the board it travels through and the space below is the floor below. If the chop hits too hard then it will go through and strike the floor (which is presumably ungiving, although if your building has a basement, then he might end up in the basement). On the other hand, if the chop hits "wrong" or too light, then the hand will break on the board or bounce off. If the chop hits at the right angle with the right force, then it could go through the board and land safely on the ground. 

Regardless, because of these physical properties, you could have the body in virtually any level of gore imaginable (from living and unhurt to a puddle). You can successfully argue that the body slowed down enough going through the roof to land unhurt (or slightly damaged) inside, or you could say that even though it broke the roof, it was traveling so fast and hit the roof at an optimal angle (or suboptimal as the case may be) that it hit the ground at near terminal velocity levels.


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