# Writing LGBTQ+ Characters



## Noma Galway (Dec 9, 2015)

Right now I'm trying to get back into the swing of writing in my own worlds with my own characters after being stuck in the fanfiction sandbox for quite some time developing a style. And I figured out that one of the reasons I stayed in fanfiction for so long was because of the LGBTQ+ representation, which is really important to me. Out in the world of published fiction you don't find a lot of good books featuring non-straight, non-cisgender characters. And now I'm writing an urban fantasy about an agender person who is panromantic but demisexual, and the utter lack of LGBTQ+ characters in popular fantasy is becoming really intimidating. Especially talking about pronouns. 

"They", to be specific.

"They" is the pronoun I identify with, so I fully believe it can be used as a singular for my nonbinary character. I'm nervous it will throw readers off, though I'm trying to make it plain that my character uses that pronoun. I will be dealing with social dysphoria, misgendering, and general transphobia throughout the story, too, so I'm not sure how to make it obvious that they're nonbinary without explicitly stating early on.

Basically, I just wanted to open up a *respectful* discussion about writing LGBTQ+ characters and the struggles that can arise therein.


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## Ireth (Dec 9, 2015)

I'm glad you started this thread. I have a WIP involving an intergender protagonist who also uses the "they" pronoun, so I'm hoping this will help me out too.

As far as not throwing readers off, what person is your story written from? It might help if it's written in first person, so your MC uses "I" throughout rather than "they". That's what I did, and it's working well so far. I'm not sure what to do about obviousness, though. Sometimes you have to hit the reader over the head, even multiple times, with something before they'll get it. (*points to most of the comments on her preliminary query/blurb for her WIP, in which misgendering is persistent and rampant*)

I ended up having my MC lead with their pronoun when they meet the main supporting character. "Name's Loren, pronoun's they. What are yours?"


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## Noma Galway (Dec 9, 2015)

I can't write from first person at all, so third person. (So far I'm actually having difficulties with saying "her" instead of "their" but I'm catching it every time). Right now I'm almost worried like it sounds like my MC is being possessed or some such by a cult or something (considering I've dealt with mind control in the past and done something similar, that might just be my own bias). Right now I'm having my first scene be them getting home and changing out of their chest binder, which should make it fairly obvious, I hope.


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## NerdyCavegirl (Dec 9, 2015)

I think it depends on how the society in-story treats sexuality. I deal with a lot of sexual themes, many extremely controversial, in my writing. If I had to label myself with a genre, it'd be something like surreal erotic horror survival science-fantasy; needless to say I don't do genres. One character, a "typical" rogue type, is an intensely masochistic aromantic pansexual, another is a boy who was raised by anthro-wolves and simply had no one else to do, and the only MCs I've named so far are both just young bi chicks with wild oats to sow. All face different struggles for/despite their sexuality based on how they were raised, where they live, and how much they care. I just treat sexuality as I do race, age, eye color, or fashion taste: traits that are inconsequential on their own but may have significance depending on context. I'm a white pansexual female, I'm sure I can't politically correctly relate to a black straight male, but I can easily infer I wouldn't wanna go a KKK meeting or watch gay porn if I was. xD Most struggles are more a problem with the culture than the sexuality.


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## Noma Galway (Dec 9, 2015)

See, what I personally am attempting to do is write a story both about the marginalization my MC, as an agender person, faces and the actual story, in which they are attempting to find someone for their employer (I do intend on that someone to be my MC's love interest). I totally get what you're saying, and I am writing in modern day America, city unspecified. So the culture is fairly mixed in opinion.


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## Penpilot (Dec 9, 2015)

Noma Galway said:


> "They" is the pronoun I identify with, so I fully believe it can be used as a singular for my nonbinary character. I'm nervous it will throw readers off, though I'm trying to make it plain that my character uses that pronoun. I will be dealing with social dysphoria, misgendering, and general transphobia throughout the story, too, so I'm not sure how to make it obvious that they're nonbinary without explicitly stating early on.



Personally, I say just do it and let the reader figure it out. If you support the use of the pronoun with some subtle or even some not so subtle cues, your readers should pick up on it, at least the semi-perceptive ones will.


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## Noma Galway (Dec 9, 2015)

I would hope people pick up on it. I'll probably post a bit of the beginning later, when I get it a bit more hashed out.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 9, 2015)

i have to tell you...all the agents I've queried are looking for LBGTQ work, so if you want me to share some links, let me know. It's something agents are hungry for, for sure. I've even considered dusting off my novella, just because of the sudden surge in popularity.


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## WooHooMan (Dec 10, 2015)

Noma Galway said:


> an agender person who is panromantic but demisexual, and the utter lack of LGBTQ+ characters in popular fantasy is becoming really intimidating. Especially talking about pronouns.
> 
> "They", to be specific.
> 
> "They" is the pronoun I identify with, so I fully believe it can be used as a singular for my nonbinary character. I'm nervous it will throw readers off



This may be a controversial thing to say but I honestly believe that the lack of lgbt characters in any form of fiction right now comes from people not knowing what to do for fear of offending people.  Not lgbt people specifically, just anyone.
I really don't think it's a good sign if writers are having trouble with pronouns of all things.  Not determiners, interrogative adverbs or discursive particles.  Just pronouns. 

I know a couple of lgbt people and they tend to be mixed in their reaction to pronouns.  Some get upset if you don't use the right pronouns, others don't.  I'm also sure that one or two of them would role their eyes at the terms agender, demisexual and panromantic.
As with everything, everyone will have different reactions to different things.  So, just go for it and see what happens.


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## Miskatonic (Dec 10, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> This may be a controversial thing to say but I honestly believe that the lack of lgbt characters in any form of fiction right now comes from people not knowing what to do for fear of offending people.  Not lgbt people specifically, just anyone.
> I really don't think it's a good sign if writers are having trouble with pronouns of all things.  Not determiners, interrogative adverbs or discursive particles.  Just pronouns.
> 
> I know a couple of lgbt people and they tend to be mixed in their reaction to pronouns.  Some get upset if you don't use the right pronouns, others don't.  I'm also sure that one or two of them would role their eyes at the terms agender, demisexual and panromantic.
> *As with everything, everyone will have different reactions to different things.  So, just go for it and see what happens.*



Exactly. No matter what you write you are always going to upset somebody, regardless of how sensitively you treat the issues in the story. Don't get paranoid about it.


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## Demesnedenoir (Dec 10, 2015)

Yeah, I think go for it is the best answer here, or at least succinct. However you write it, just write it.


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## MineOwnKing (Dec 10, 2015)

I hate to be the odd man out on this topic, but I have to say, regardless of the fact that 'They' is correct, personally I find it too confusing.

If more and more writers are going to tackle this problem, then I think it's time to invent a new word to replace 'They'.

No offense intended, and with all respect.


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## Ireth (Dec 10, 2015)

MineOwnKing said:


> I hate to be the odd man out on this topic, but I have to say, regardless of the fact that 'They' is correct, personally I find it too confusing.
> 
> If more and more writers are going to tackle this problem, then I think it's time to invent a new word to replace 'They'.
> 
> No offense intended, and with all respect.



Some do use pronouns like xe/xir, ze/zir and sie/hir, but the first two sound a bit sci-fi for me. I only use xe/xir in one WIP where the main characters (who include both binary and non-binary) are not human. I've seen at least one character who uses sie/hir, but that was in a private RP in my circle of friends, not something widespread. "They" is the one that works best for me personally, as far as characters go.


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## Devor (Dec 10, 2015)

Ireth had a thread about this.

I think they singular works fine in casual conversation, but in lengthy prose I would find it jarring, myself. But I don't have a better solution, and the problem does reflect reality, doesn't it?

Your target audience for a story like this will probably understand the dilemma, but I don't think it would play well with casual readers.  And you may want to take the time to figure out how best to set up your use of it instead of jumping right in with your first sentence.

But I think they is fundamentally flawed for this use in prose.  If you pick up a book and flip to a page in the middle, and you read "they walked across the street," you've got the wrong visual image of what's going on.  I think that's a problem.


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## Noma Galway (Dec 10, 2015)

Thank you guys for all your responses! I will say I am not concerned about upsetting people...once I jumped in with a very LGBTQ+ story I figured I was probably already upsetting people and I didn't much care. But on the confusion...I definitely hear you, Devor. "They" is so clumsy in prose and at this point I'm thinking of switching to different pronouns, although I'm not nearly as comfortable with their usage. There are so many different pronoun sets (I went through quite a few trying to figure out which ones I was comfortable with), and "they" is just easier, since it is already an accepted word with a dictionary singular definition.


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## Ireth (Dec 10, 2015)

Devor said:


> But I think they is fundamentally flawed for this use in prose.  If you pick up a book and flip to a page in the middle, and you read "they walked across the street," you've got the wrong visual image of what's going on.  I think that's a problem.



Do people typically do that, though? Why would they, rather than starting from the beginning where they'll get the setup needed to establish the character's non-binary-ness?


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## Legendary Sidekick (Dec 10, 2015)

In Cantonese, he and she are both pronounced "kui" but written as 他 (he) and 她 (she). Knowing that, and of masculine/feminine versions of all pronouns in French, I can see that there is a linguistic challenge in all languages. "They is" would take getting used to for me, and I would assume "they" is plural unless I was given the info that the MC thinks of themself as a "them" not a "her."

That's simply my lack of understanding (prior to reading this thread), and not lack of willingness to understand. 

So I guess my advice would be to go with what you understand from your own experience. If you prefer "they" over "she," then it's the right pronoun. Now educate your clueless readers with an early scene (or a few).

For a frame of reference, here's how clueless I am: This site is the only place I've known of people calling themselves asexual and nonbinary, and I actually don't know if asexual = nonbinary, or can you be one but not the other. Are all nonbinary people biologically female? Is that a stupid question? I think getting into this character's head would be interesting because I would learn something new.

I think you're the right person to represent nonbinary characters for the same reason I'm the right person to represent biracial characters--personal experience means you get it. The representation will be appreciated by those who can identify, as well as the clueless.


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## Ireth (Dec 10, 2015)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> In Cantonese, he and she are both pronounced "kui" but written as 他 (he) and 她 (she). Knowing that, and of masculine/feminine versions of all pronouns in French, I can see that there is a linguistic challenge in all languages. "They is" would take getting used to for me, and I would assume "they" is plural unless I was given the info that the MC thinks of themself as a "them" not a "her."
> 
> That's simply my lack of understanding (prior to reading this thread), and not lack of willingness to understand.
> 
> ...



It's "they are", not "they is", just like in normal grammar. You use "is" when mentioning the person by name, though.

Asexual =/= nonbinary, though I'm sure there is some overlap. I'm a cisgender binary female, who also identifies as asexual. Non-binary people can be biologically male, female, or intersex.


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## WooHooMan (Dec 10, 2015)

Hey, quick question: can I write a trans character without them being a representation?



MineOwnKing said:


> I hate to be the odd man out on this topic, but I have to say, regardless of the fact that 'They' is correct, personally I find it too confusing.
> 
> If more and more writers are going to tackle this problem, then I think it's time to invent a new word to replace 'They'.



English did originally have a gender neutral pronoun: it.  But around the 1400's "it" became used to refer to inanimate objects so people used "he" as the default when referring to people.
Now most people would say it's deeply offensive to refer to a trans person as "it".

If I'm not mistaken, the term "man" was also, at one point, considered gender neutral.

This is not terribly useful information but it's sort of interesting.


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## Noma Galway (Dec 10, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> Hey, quick question: can I write a trans character without them being a representation?


What do you mean?


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## WooHooMan (Dec 11, 2015)

Noma Galway said:


> What do you mean?



Ignore that question.  I wanted to lead into a discussion topic but I don't think it's worth discussing here.


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## Cobwebs (Dec 13, 2015)

If your focus is on a character who is struggling with their gender in a society that goes against what they feel/are, then go for it.

If you're story is about something that isn't directly related to gender or sexuality, then treat it as it is: another thing. Don't make a spectacle out of it, and maybe only spend a chapter's worth of time really delving into it if it's not going to create much more conflict other than the occasional confusion or slip up.

I strongly dislike it when non cisgendered or non hetero characters are treated as soap boxes within the story. It takes away from the pacing and tone of the work (again, unless that is the actual focus of the work). 

I'm intersex, meaning I have both male and female gonadal tissues. I have struggled a long time with finding stories that make me feel like I can put myself in the character's shoes, and only rarely does the feeling last. Too soon does a writer fall into tropes from ad-libbing what a character's feelings might be on the subject or just become... uncomfortable and incorrect to read in the first place. I can't say it enough, find LGBT boards and ask for some interviews with people who identify with what your character is going to be. Get all sides of the story, get all aspects of feelings- you gotta learn to do it well. That and of course writing based on your own experience with it, too (if your gender is the same as your character's)!

While some people don't like the neutral "they" for pronouns, I would generally stick with it. Using less common pronouns can break up the pacing of your words- more people can understand "they" rather than try to pronounce a pronoun they've never encountered before.


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## Noma Galway (Dec 13, 2015)

I also dislike it when the focus is put on gender identity or sexuality in a work that isn't explicitly about it, but I also want my MC's identity to be clear. Because the general assumption is straight and cis, I just really want that to not be assumed about my character. Especially because I am using my general thought patterns for this character. And many of the other characters. None of my major characters are going to be straight, so pronouns and everything like that have to be extremely clear.


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## Cobwebs (Dec 13, 2015)

Well luckily with the correct approach then it WILL be clear. Say for instance you have a nonbinary character, agender asexual and goes by "them." It's easy to make it clear about your character through various interactions- especially if the MC is agender there will definitely be moments where they feel that neutrality and can introspect on it. Or perhaps the neutrality extends outward- they may be androgynous in features and wear a mix match of femme and masculine clothes. Another character may comment on it. Or, another character may say "she" or "he" and the MC correct them or otherwise react- it's easy to make these things obvious to people who are looking for them. But if you try to be too up front or direct you run the risk of unintentionally making a soap box.

Just let things naturally happen with the discovery and conclusions of your characters' genders and sexualities!


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 13, 2015)

This is why I stopped writing my novel about a gay, POC airship captain, and his assorted crew members, including a POC female mechanic who isn't asexual but doesn't embrace her femininity as a means to an end, and a young white-ish orphan boy, and a former boudoir slave (male and white) with PTSD.

The story was about this assortment of characters and how they became a trusting family aboard a reclaimed airship, and the main plot was about the captain and the people he was trying to outrun because of a deal gone bad. 

It had no reason to explore race issues (because in that world, there was no colonization period which would have insinuated people of any skin color were lesser or better than any other), and it certainly wasn't about anyone's sexuality or how I feel about it, or justifying anything for a reader's benefit.  They were just characters, natural people with their own lives.  I stopped writing it when the POC and sexuality debate blew up on this forum last winter.  I submitted the first chapter for Phil's diversity challenge, but didn't write on.

I was afraid of offending...I dunno, maybe everyone? I mean...to me, if I want to write a gay man, or a black man, or a man with PTSD because he was sold into slavery as a youth, I just want to write it.  I don't want to have to take any sort of stand on an "issue" because to me, there's no issue (which I've learned offends some people). I don't want to have to make the captain's sexuality a bigger part of the story than it is. All that's important to me, the story-teller, is that the MC female mechanic is comfortable with this man because he not only treats her as a valid young woman with skills, but he's not trying to get into her pants. To her, it's nothing worth talking about, but something from which she derives secure feelings. I don't want to feel like I have to get into a POC's mind to write this young woman, because to me, there is no shame in being any color (though some people feel there are negative portrayals in our modern writing, and I agree with that, though I miss most of it because I am not looking for it).  The thing is, it sort of makes me sick just thinking about all this, because in my mind, I am not consciously avoiding things I think will cause negativity or harm in our world.  I am just writing a girl as I see her, her captain who she trusts, and the two other guys who share her flying home and are her friends.  No one sits around talking about their sexuality of the color of their skin any more than I do with my realtor friends in the office.  I talk to some of the other moms about kid issues.  I talk about real estate.  I talk about family and food recipes.  Never once have I asked anyone about their sexuality or their race, or how they feel about either of those things.  Do I have to mention it in a world where there was never any colonization, subjugation, racism, homophobia, or segregation?

I feel like if I write a MC who's a POC or of a sexuality other than my own, I'm supposed to either make a study of their person in a way I'm not comfortable, or I'll offend people if I just don't explore the "issues" in a way that makes them more important to the story. 

When did this thing become so "damned if you do, damned if you don't?" I just want to write characters as I see them, but now I'm so afraid of offending people, i can't even write it? Sucky!

I think the most important thing when choosing a character is having a clear picture of the character.  Personally (as a rather uninformed person who has been called insensitive about race issues and has confessed to not understanding all the various sexualities recognized today), I wouldn't be offended if you had a character who was physically male and in those parts he was referred to as "he", and when he donned certain clothing or felt another way, was referred to as "she". I wouldn't be jarred by "they" as a pronoun, but writing it, I'd prefer to see sentences like, "Pat knelt beside the grave. They ran a calloused hand over the smooth stone, and missed their mother," turned into, "Pat knelt beside the grave, running a calloused hand over the smooth stone. Missing mother was always worse at the end of the year." I'd cut down the number of "they's" as far as possible because I feel it's somewhat confusing. 

I'm unfamiliar with what it feels like to be genderless or not associate with my own gender, or to have no sexual feelings one way or the other. But because I can't personally relate to it, does that mean I can't write it? I'm not sure.  I'm not sure whether it's an issue of not feeling "allowed" to, or whether it's just not something I'd feel I can connect with enough to do it justice.  For example, I wrote a hermaphroditic asexual sea dragon for Clichea, and I passed that on to a non binary asexual friend, who loved it, but I never wrote the character that way to fill any sort of need to explore within myself.  I wrote it because I was at the point where I pictured the dragon as a male character, and then I felt somewhat limited by the classification itself.  Like, does that mean I need to give it "male" traits? Or would it be as convincing as a female dragon? So I simply decided that sea dragons should reproduce as earthworms do, having both sets of sex organs, and taking turns laying eggs and fertilizing each other's brood.  Worked for me. No further thought given. HA! See how insensitive I am! I pick something, write it as I see it, and let the words be their own story. No stand, no exploration of what it means to the character, just let the character be who they are. 

I hope other people feel they can give themselves permission to explore things outside their own realm of relatability and understanding. I hope to one day pick this novel back up again, because I loved the concept (however simple it is), and I loved the characters, because I felt they defied our own limited world views, idealizing a freedom we maybe don't yet truly own (though in my heart, I do). As writers, I fully acknowledge we have a responsibility to be aware of the ways character portrayals can affect people negatively, but I also feel like some folks need to lighten up.  Be brave, scribes. Be brave, but tactful.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 14, 2015)

BTW, I have a couple Trans friends who discuss their personal struggles on Facebook, and I'm very interested in learning more about how pronouns affect people, and how I, as a straight female who has a bunch of bisexual and gay/ lesbian friends can learn more. I don't feel right flat out asking my friends about my writing as though they are research subjects, but if anyone on this forum would be willing to shoot emails back and forth with me, would you send me a PM please? i'm desperately interested in understanding how I can portray characters who are unlike me more realistically, but I'm just not comfortable asking people directly and putting them on the spot.

I just made a new thread.  Please let me know your thoughts.  This relates to the same subject, a question about a homosexual character I've written into a novel, and I'm worried his name will cause unintended offense.  I hate walking on eggshells, but I really could use some advice. It's here:http://mythicscribes.com/forums/writing-questions/15700-strange-name.html#post225246


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## Velka (Dec 14, 2015)

Washington Post's latest style manual has adopted using 'they' as their gender neutral pronoun.



> There was one change, though, that I knew would cause controversy. For many years, I’ve been rooting for – but stopping short of employing – what is known as the singular they as the only sensible solution to English’s lack of a gender-neutral third-person singular personal pronoun. (Everyone has their own opinion about this.) He once filled that role, but a male default hasn’t been palatable for decades. Using she in a sort of linguistic affirmative action strikes me as patronizing. Alternating he and she is silly, as are he/she, (s)he and attempts at made-up pronouns. The only thing standing in the way of they has been the appearance of incorrectness – the lack of acceptance among educated readers.



There's a bit more meat on this in the article on this, as well as a very long musing on e-mail becoming email


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## JCFarnham (Dec 15, 2015)

The main problem I've found with pronouns like xie and its fellows is that very few people outside of either the craft itself or the lgbtq+ community seem to understand them. I've always been hesitant to use those as a character's preferred pronoun as I feel it might make too much of a scene of itself. The reader could spend more time trying to figure out what I'm talking about than actually enjoying the story.

Not ideal, obviously.

For that reason alone I'm on the side of the Washington Post. Now I'm nothing more or less than a male cisgender pansexual, but from a writer's standpoint, they is far better in my eye. For one, it's a word the majority of people recognize. I'd even go as far to say a decent proportion of the reading population could figure out from context that it's being used as a gender neutral. You could make up pronouns but that is sometimes about as useful as calling a rabbit a smerp.

(Of course if you're writing a character who DOES identify as sie, then, for whatever those reasons are, it might not be so genuine to start using they for clarities sake.)

I have I sci-fi universe, that I really don't use enough, in which there is a species of alien who have three (hopefully functional) sexes. With the third essentially neutral sex I chose to use they. Not going to lie. It probably is quite jarring to read at first, but transcribing them as he or she would muddy the readers understanding of this gender trinary.

I know that's a fairly sci-fi example which might not be too relevant to the conversation, but I personally think there's something to be taken from it. Namely, using any kind of pronoun is fine. It purely depends on the context and character.

Eg.,  If the character is always mentioned in conjunction with a group of people it might be too confusing to use they. Conversely if a character has a bit of a bugbear about the dehumanizing effect of it and they as pronouns then why should you the writer feel forced to use they?

I know I've argued both sides a bit there, but know that I do so for the sake of discussion haha


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## Steerpike (Dec 15, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> When did this thing become so "damned if you do, damned if you don't?" I just want to write characters as I see them, but now I'm so afraid of offending people, i can't even write it? Sucky!



I think you just have to write what you want to write and not worry about those things. After the book leaves your hands it becomes a sort of collaboration between the author and reader. You can't stop them bringing their own interpretations and expectations to the work. But that shouldn't deter you from writing what you want to write, how you want to write it. In my current story, the MC is a lesbian. I don't make a big deal out of it or use it as some kind of representation that is supposed to have import in the real world, because in the fantasy world I created it is simply a non-issue. There's no stigma attached. So writing the story as a commentary on real-world LGBT issues simply wouldn't make sense.

Sometimes a snake is just a snake.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 15, 2015)

Yeah, see that's how I write.  When i write race or sexuality, it is in context of the world--where those things aren't stigmatized. There is no shame in being gay, no jokes or insults.  It just is how people are, or aren't. But again, I worry readers will see that as somehow insulting? Like I'm not emphasizing it enough?  It's so frustrating, but I think you're right, I just need to write it the way I see it, and if people want to be insulted that I wrote a gay man and didn't explore the "why" and "how" of justifying it or expounding on what it means to be gay, so be it.  I'm just a person who sees nothing wrong with being gay, and nothing worth justifying in the story. I can't pretend to want to explore the nature of any sexuality, because i simply don't write stories where any character (straight or gay) is expected to fulfill any sort of public demonstration for a reader's benefit.  Let readers either like my portrayals, or hate them, all I can do is try to be as respectful as possible, and know in my heart that I'm lovingly crafting each character I put on a page.  I'm going to try to get over this, and ask for help here whenever I need it, because you guys are awesome, and so knowledgeable, and so honest. I hope everyone else on this thread can feel secure in their own decisions, too, because we shouldn't feel limited by language and public opinions in a way that stops us from pursuing our passion.


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## Velka (Dec 15, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> It's so frustrating, but I think you're right, I just need to write it the way I see it, and if people want to be insulted that I wrote a gay man and didn't explore the "why" and "how" of justifying it or expounding on what it means to be gay, so be it.



I've never heard of readers complaining about an author not exploring the hows or whys or justifying it when a character is cisgender heterosexual. I think writing a lgbtq character with the same "yeah, they're <insert identification here>, what of it? let's get on with the story" is honouring them in a profound way. It's not something that needs to be explained, it just _is_.

There certainly is fiction that does explore these issues and struggles, but it is author intent to make it a focal point. If author intent is to write a kick ass story with some dragons and treasure and stuff, with an MC or characters that identify outside of the genre-norm, then I don't believe it's necessary.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 15, 2015)

I agree with velka (and caged maiden). I'm not sure why it needs to be justified or explained. 

Caged maiden, I would have loved your first story with all the different people together, trying to cope and understand each other. That would have been right up my ally. 

I'm watching Jessica Jones right now and the lawyer is a lesbian with a wife. There is no justification. It has nothing to do with the story. She just is. I appreciate that.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 15, 2015)

I plan to write and finish the airship one, because I love the characters, but I got all kinds of bogged down in fearing what reader responses would be to a cast with mixed races and mixed sexualities, and though I wasn't making any sort of statement, I felt it would be seen as such.  The colors of their skin and their sexual preferences have nothing to do with the story, they just are what they are, in a world where none of it defines anyone. 

I am finding a lot of support here recently, people saying they would not see the concepts as racist or negative (as in, the drunk captain), and I hope to finish it so I can edit. I guess fear stopped my progress because I didn't feel it was worth fighting for, to put across my point that people are just people, whatever they are, and a writer can write a world without that kind of hatred without specifically addressing the absence of the kind of hate we experience in our own world. A hate I just don't have, but enough people perpetuate to make writers question their very motivation in character selection. 

Thanks Helio! 

The other story, the rewrite that I've been talking about with the gay loan shark, is my current focus, because it begins off the last third of the novels I've written, so it would be nice to get that finished instead of the stand alone I don't have fully plotted. I guess I worry that if I got hung up on the airship story in the first chapter, how will I fare on the rest of the writing? As much as I love the characters, I have a gay, black airship captain who is a bit of a drunk, and then I have the orphan (whose story will touch on neglect and abuse in a small way, when he insists they take aboard another orphan girl because he recognizes the signs of abuse and it breaks his twelve-year-old heart, so he wants to help this girl escape the workhouse). I mean...for a story about an airship mechanic who is traveling the world as a young woman and feeding her sense of adventure, I introduced some heavy concepts, and I felt maybe all combined, it might become too much for readers?  Who knows.


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## Noma Galway (Dec 15, 2015)

I decided to change the pronouns to zie/hir, just to make the "they" less awkward. I'm thinking of doing an author's note if this one gets finished, just to clarify the MC's pronouns so the unfamiliar pronouns are explained immediately. 

Also, my thought is that as long as a character isn't a caricature of their race/sexuality/gender/what have you, it should be fine to treat them as a character. Like GRRM's "I treat them like people" (or some such, I don't remember the exact quote). I feel like the mentality that we can't have villains of marginalized identity is a harmful one.


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## Ireth (Dec 15, 2015)

Noma Galway said:


> I decided to change the pronouns to zie/hir, just to make the "they" less awkward. I'm thinking of doing an author's note if this one gets finished, just to clarify the MC's pronouns so the unfamiliar pronouns are explained immediately.
> 
> Also, my thought is that as long as a character isn't a caricature of their race/sexuality/gender/what have you, it should be fine to treat them as a character. Like GRRM's "I treat them like people" (or some such, I don't remember the exact quote). I feel like the mentality that we can't have villains of marginalized identity is a harmful one.



I'm inclined to agree. I just think it's potentially problematic if the villain is the ONLY LGBT+ or otherwise marginalized person in the story. I wrote a villain once who was MtF transgender, and while her identity did inform the plot somewhat (the MC had met her once before, but that was well before she transitioned, resulting in confusion and misgendering from various people), the fact that she was transgender wasn't the _point_ of the story. She wasn't a "transgender villain", she was a "villain who happened to be transgender".


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## Noma Galway (Dec 15, 2015)

Ireth said:


> I'm inclined to agree. I just think it's potentially problematic if the villain is the ONLY LGBT+ or otherwise marginalized person in the story.


I agree there. Completely. "villains who happen to be" anything are generally fine with me. It's only when the point is that a trans person is the villain that I would be upset by it, personally. I can't speak for anyone else, though.


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## WooHooMan (Dec 15, 2015)

Noma Galway said:


> I agree there. Completely. "villains who happen to be" anything are generally fine with me. It's only when the point is that a trans person is the villain that I would be upset by it, personally. I can't speak for anyone else, though.



What if the fact that the character is LGBT had, in same way, lead to them becoming a villain?  Perhaps they're lashing-out against institutionalized discrimination or being unable to properly cope with an identity conflict created some deep psychological issues?  Would it be justified in that case?

Likewise, couldn't you argue that making a villain who happens to be, for no narrative reason, LGBT kind of a enthymeme arguing that LGBT people tend to be villains or vice-versa?  After all, why would the writer make the villain (or any other character) LGBT unless they were trying to say something about LGBT people?

By the way, Noma, just so we're clear: I'm not trying to argue with you or say your viewpoint is wrong or anything.  I'm just trying to keep the discussion going.
I'm learning that I need to be careful about looking like I'm trying to pick fights on this forum.


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## TheKillerBs (Dec 15, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> why would the writer make the villain (or any other character) LGBT unless they were trying to say something about LGBT people?



The way I see it, really is one thing that you are saying by including incidentally LGBTQ people (that is, people who happen to be LGBTQ whose identity/proclivity/whatever-it's-called is not relevant to the plot) and that is that LGBTQ people are people just like everyone else. It doesn't matter what the label is, they are people. And like every other people, some of them are "good", and some of them are "bad". Some of them are smart, others not so much. And these characters represent that. Just my two cents.


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## WooHooMan (Dec 16, 2015)

TheKillerBs said:


> The way I see it, really is one thing that you are saying by including incidentally LGBTQ people (that is, people who happen to be LGBTQ whose identity/proclivity/whatever-it's-called is not relevant to the plot) and that is that LGBTQ people are people just like everyone else. It doesn't matter what the label is, they are people. And like every other people, some of them are "good", and some of them are "bad". Some of them are smart, others not so much. And these characters represent that. Just my two cents.



I could be misreading you (if I am, sorry, let me know) but it seems like you're suggesting that a writer can't have an LGBT character without it being part of some kind of statement (either positive or negative).



Velka said:


> I think writing a lgbtq character with the same "yeah, they're <insert identification here>, what of it? let's get on with the story" is honouring them in a profound way. It's not something that needs to be explained, it just _is_



This is what I mean.

I actually have a main character who is trans and when discussing this story with a group of people, as soon as the word "trans" came-up, they immediately started discussing the political and sociological implications of the character and trying to discern my personal stance on LGBT people, feminists and social justice in general.

And I actually did try to make my character trans in a way that compliments her greater character arc and the overall themes of the story.



Velka said:


> I've never heard of readers complaining about an author not exploring the hows or whys or justifying it when a character is cisgender heterosexual.



Believe it or not, I have.  There are stories where a character demonstrates heterosexual behavior (having opposite-gender love interests or not forming close relationships with those of the same gender) for no reason other than to, apparently, remind the audience that the character is straight.  I've heard this trope referred to as "having a case of the not-gays".
And me being a fan of comics, I always hear people saying things like "there are too many straight characters in this book, we need more LGBT characters" or "why couldn't this character be LGBT - there's no reason they have to be straight cisgender person".
I'll admit that this isn't widely complained about and I think it may be a pretty recent topic of discussion.  But it is discussed.

There are two sides to this topic.  And that supports my initial claim that you can't please everyone no matter what you do.


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## X Equestris (Dec 16, 2015)

I think what Killer is saying is that, if one has characters who just happen to be LGBT, it treats them as if they're people just like everyone else.  And if they're people like everyone else, they have the same capacity to be good or bad as anyone who isn't LGBT.  That being specifically in response to the question of "why have an LGBT person as a villain unless you're trying to make a statement".  Basically, they're a villain or antagonist because they're people, and some people do things that are bad or bring them into conflict with the protagonist.  Their orientation or gender identity doesn't matter there.


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## FifthView (Dec 16, 2015)

I do agree with TheKillerBs and X Equestris; LGBT characters are just people, so they can be good, bad, heroes, villains, antiheroes...

However, the question always arises:  If, as X said, "Their orientation or gender identity doesn't matter there," then why make any given character LGBT?

There are two issues.

First is the relative rarity of LGBT people.  Nowadays it seems as if the number has exploded in our world—I attribute that impression to the fact that LGBT individuals are just far more open about their orientation/identity now—but, still, as a % of the total population, the numbers are pretty small.  So if you take a random sampling of 100 people and then choose randomly one of those people, odds are significantly against that person being LGBT.

Second is the authorial intent.  Or, let us say, choosing out of, say, 50 characters in a novel (including secondary, tertiary, side characters, redshirts...etc.) a villain (so 1/50) and then saying, aha, that villain _also_ happens to be LGBT....well, the question might arise, "What are the _odds_?"  That's some coincidence!  But the reader will know it's not a coincidence; the author specifically chose this.   But, why?

I'm not arguing that that is bad, but only that the issue's not as simple as saying that LGBT characters are just people like everyone else so the decision to make a particular character LGBT is ... random, incidental, unimportant.  It _is_ significant, as all author choices should be.   So something might be signified.  I think the trick is to make sure that readers don't read the wrong signals or are not left to imagine their own.


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## Velka (Dec 16, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> And me being a fan of comics, I always hear people saying things like "there are too many straight characters in this book, we need more LGBT characters" or "why couldn't this character be LGBT - there's no reason they have to be straight cisgender person".
> I'll admit that this isn't widely complained about and I think it may be a pretty recent topic of discussion.  But it is discussed.



That is readers criticizing underrepresentation, not the author failing to explore the hows, whys, and whats of their cisgender heterosexual character's sexuality or gender identification.


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## Ireth (Dec 16, 2015)

FifthView said:


> Nowadays it seems as if the number has exploded in our world—I attribute that impression to the fact that LGBT individuals are just far more open about their orientation/identity now—but, still, as a % of the total population, the numbers are pretty small.  So if you take a random sampling of 100 people and then choose randomly one of those people, odds are significantly against that person being LGBT.



Funny you should say that. I'm part of a group of six close friends who do a lot of roleplaying on Skype and such, and we recently realized that 4/6 of us are asexual (including one who is also agender), one is demisexual, and one is bi and trans. So we're all LGBT. I get that it's not the sample of 100 you were referencing, but it still strikes me as interesting. We didn't even come together as friends because of our orientations, like via a support group or anything. One of us didn't even know she was ace until quite recently.


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## Steerpike (Dec 16, 2015)

FifthView said:


> However, the question always arises:  If, as X said, "Their orientation or gender identity doesn't matter there," then why make any given character LGBT?



That's a sort of "othering," isn't it? Vis a vis non-LGBT characters, that is. I have a straight white male character in my story. Presumably, I'm under no obligation to explain to the reader why I chose to make him a straight white male. If I feel that I am _obligated_ to provide reasons for having an LGBT character, that signals that they are other and aren't sufficient in their own right to warrant a place as a character, but rather need some justification that my straight white male does not need. That's not the way I view my story or world.

Also, in dealing with a fantasy world, the real world percentages aren't significant to the story.


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## Russ (Dec 16, 2015)

Steerpike said:


> That's a sort of "othering," isn't it? Vis a vis non-LGBT characters, that is. I have a straight white male character in my story. Presumably, I'm under no obligation to explain to the reader why I chose to make him a straight white male. If I feel that I am _obligated_ to provide reasons for having an LGBT character, that signals that they are other and aren't sufficient in their own right to warrant a place as a character, but rather need some justification that my straight white male does not need. That's not the way I view my story or world.
> 
> Also, in dealing with a fantasy world, the real world percentages aren't significant to the story.



I give you a standing ovation for the first paragraph it is simply dead on.

The last line has me stroking my chin a bit and wondering.  If one varies greatly from real world norms in a fantasy story, should not one do so for a reason.  For instance if your fantasy world is 30% LGBT is that not an implicit or explicit statement about that world, and thus a reflection on ours?  Once one, as a writer, makes a choice, is not the reader entitled to ponder why that choice was made and what its ramifications are?


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## Ireth (Dec 16, 2015)

Russ said:


> I give you a standing ovation for the first paragraph it is simply dead on.
> 
> The last line has me stroking my chin a bit and wondering.  If one varies greatly from real world norms in a fantasy story, should not one do so for a reason.  For instance if your fantasy world is 30% LGBT is that not an implicit or explicit statement about that world, and thus a reflection on ours?  Once one, as a writer, makes a choice, is not the reader entitled to ponder why that choice was made and what its ramifications are?



Should not representation be a sufficient choice in and of itself?


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## WooHooMan (Dec 16, 2015)

Ireth said:


> Funny you should say that. I'm part of a group of six close friends who do a lot of roleplaying on Skype and such, and we recently realized that 4/6 of us are asexual (including one who is also agender), one is demisexual, and one is bi and trans. So we're all LGBT. I get that it's not the sample of 100 you were referencing, but it still strikes me as interesting. We didn't even come together as friends because of our orientations, like via a support group or anything. One of us didn't even know she was ace until quite recently.



You could just as easily argue that this means that LGBT people are attracted to Skype roleplaying games.  I actually know a couple LGBT people through Skype.
I do agree with you that technology and communications have some kind of causal relationship with the apparent increase of LGBT people.  I say "apparent" since you could argue that LGBT population hasn't increased but has just become more widely identified.



Steerpike said:


> That's a sort of "othering," isn't it? Vis a vis non-LGBT characters, that is. I have a straight white male character in my story. Presumably, I'm under no obligation to explain to the reader why I chose to make him a straight white male.



I think context is important here.
If a Chinese person - living in China - wrote a Chinese book where most characters were apparently Han Chinese with the exception of one character who was a white man, I think some explaining may be expected.

I know it sucks for a lot people that there is a norm that states that heterosexual white men are "average" or "default" but I think we do need to accept that that is the norm (whether or not this norm is fair, moral or sensible is a whole other discussion).  
You are not under an obligation to justify your choice because it fits into the norm.
LGBT are not the norm (that's why, relating to my earlier posts, most writers only include them when they intend to make a statement) which is why writers _are_ under obligation to justify their existence.

If an artists wants to challenge the norm, that's great but I think they need to be a little more clever than just shoving an LGBT character in a story and saying "LGBT people exist" and leave it at that.
I was, as I mentioned earlier, in a position where I was asked to defend my choice in including an LGBT character.  Do you know what I did?  I defended my choice in including an LGBT character using in-universe logic and explaining the thematic importance.
Someday down the line, I'm sure, we'll get to the point where LGBT characters in fiction aren't going to raise any eyebrows but we just aren't at that point yet.

Also, I know this is a sensitive topic and I'm saying some harsh things but I want to stress I don't mean any offense and all this is just my opinion and understanding of a subject that I could be completely wrong about.


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## Steerpike (Dec 16, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> I know it sucks for a lot people that there is a norm that states that heterosexual white men are "average" or "default" but I think we do need to accept that that is the norm (whether or not this norm is fair, moral or sensible is a whole other discussion).
> You are not under an obligation to justify your choice because it fits into the norm.
> LGBT are not the norm (that's why, relating to my earlier posts, most writers only include them when they intend to make a statement) which is why writers _are_ under obligation to justify their existence.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I reject this line of thinking, particularly as it applies to a fantasy world. I don't think it is a particularly compelling argument for real-world stories, given that there are enough LGBT people, and a small enough cast of characters in most stories, that no matter what the specific percentages are there shouldn't be any problem having an LGBT character in a story without having to justify their existence artificially. I find it even less compelling with respect to a fantasy world, where I might have dragons, or demons, or wraiths, or selkies, or shapeshifters running around without delving into the evolution, ecology, or natural history of the same, but as soon as a lesbian character pops up a reader is supposedly going to say "Wait, what's this?!" Those readers are welcome to read other stories


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## WooHooMan (Dec 16, 2015)

Steerpike said:


> Yeah, I reject this line of thinking, particularly as it applies to a fantasy world. I don't think it is a particularly compelling argument for real-world stories, given that there are enough LGBT people, and a small enough cast of characters in most stories, that no matter what the specific percentages are there shouldn't be any problem having an LGBT character in a story without having to justify their existence artificially.



Yeah, well, I embrace that line of thinking.
So, take that!

But seriously: I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say so I'll try phrasing it differently.

I think all characters are, by default, asexual.  They are not people, they're ideas.  They only have traits when the writer chooses to give them traits.
If you're going to give them major traits (race, religion, sexuality, beliefs, etc.), there should be a reason behind it.  More often then not, it seems like most writers include LGBT characters just for the sake of having LGBT characters.  I feel this is a wasted opportunity and kind of lazy characterization because delving into a character gender identity or sexuality can make for a good character/story.  Saying LGBT are just like cis/straights and live exactly the same way kind of denies their unique perspective from really being shown in genre fiction.

Basically, I've read good fantasy stories about straight people exploring their romances and sexuality.  I've also read good fantasy stories about men learning what it means to be a man or what masculinity means.  And I've read good fantasy stories about members of a particular race living as a minority (the first fantasy novel I ever wrote was about that).  
I would like more fantasy stories that are actually about LGBT characters instead of characters who, by the way, are LGBT.



Steerpike said:


> I find it even less compelling with respect to a fantasy world, where I might have dragons, or demons, or wraiths, or selkies, or shapeshifters running around without delving into the evolution, ecology, or natural history of the same, but as soon as a lesbian character pops up a reader is supposedly going to say "Wait, what's this?!" Those readers are welcome to read other stories



I'm not saying it's unusual to have lesbians in a fantasy story.
Playing along with your post: I would hate to read a story about Bob and Eric going on adventures, having their own respective love interests and reminiscing about growing-up in a simple rural community before making a name for themselves...and the writer just glosses over the fact that Eric's a dragon.
If you were writing a dragon character, you would have them live the life of a dragon.  Not living as a human farmer who just happens to be a dragon.

By the way, I know that there's a bad implication of comparing lesbians to dragons but y'know, this is all for the sake of discussion.


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## FifthView (Dec 16, 2015)

Steerpike said:


> That's a sort of "othering," isn't it? Vis a vis non-LGBT characters, that is. I have a straight white male character in my story. Presumably, I'm under no obligation to explain to the reader why I chose to make him a straight white male. If I feel that I am _obligated_ to provide reasons for having an LGBT character, that signals that they are other and aren't sufficient in their own right to warrant a place as a character, but rather need some justification that my straight white male does not need. That's not the way I view my story or world.
> 
> Also, in dealing with a fantasy world, the real world percentages aren't significant to the story.



What I find strange is the assumption that LGBT orientation/identity makes absolutely no difference at all.  So I'm returned to my question:  Why create an LGBT character?  Or to put it another way:  If an LGBT character is essentially identical to a straight white male character, there's no point in choosing to have a character be one or the other.  Throw the choices in a hat and pick randomly.

But that's not how it works.  An author chooses one or another.  In choosing to have the villain be LGBT, the author can raise questions from some readers about that choice.  This is not to say that such a choice is always a bad decision; I think I pretty much said as much already, although perhaps it was overlooked.

On the issue of _otherness...._

There was a time when racial identity was handled the same way.  African-Americans, Latinos, Whites, Asians....Everyone's essentially identical, no big difference, and that's how individuals from different races  should be handled on television, in movies, etc.  Or perhaps more accurately stated, people of different ethnicities.  To do so was to make a political statement.  But then came the understanding that differences should be celebrated rather than eliminated–i.e., not eliminated as if those differences were _bad_.

_Other_ is not _bad_.


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## Russ (Dec 16, 2015)

Ireth said:


> Should not representation be a sufficient choice in and of itself?



Perhaps my comment was unclear.  When you suggested that real world percentages are not relevant to a fantasy world, I think agree with you.

But the real world exists, as it does, whether the author likes it or not.  A fantasy world where gender varies greatly from the real world is the result of a choice of the author, and I think the reader is entitled to ponder that choice and the quality author should be able to defend it or at least explain it.

If you are saying "I don't have to explain or justify the use of some LGBT characters in my narrative" than I agree with you wholeheartedly.

But if the fantasy world varies greatly from our world in a broader sense, I think that area is one that merits discussion and consideration.


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## FifthView (Dec 16, 2015)

Ireth said:


> Funny you should say that. I'm part of a group of six close friends who do a lot of roleplaying on Skype and such, and we recently realized that 4/6 of us are asexual (including one who is also agender), one is demisexual, and one is bi and trans. So we're all LGBT. I get that it's not the sample of 100 you were referencing, but it still strikes me as interesting. We didn't even come together as friends because of our orientations, like via a support group or anything. One of us didn't even know she was ace until quite recently.




I am a gay man, and there was a decade or so when most of my friends and acquaintances were gay or bisexual—although, not at my workplace.  I'm a little fascinated by that now in hindsight, especially because I have one project in which the five primary characters, both male and female, are either gay/lesbian or bi.  In an epic fantasy, no less.  But they don't come together in the way that I ended up having mostly LGBT friends.


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## TheKillerBs (Dec 16, 2015)

X Equestris said:


> I think what Killer is saying is that, if one has characters who just happen to be LGBT, it treats them as if they're people just like everyone else.  And if they're people like everyone else, they have the same capacity to be good or bad as anyone who isn't LGBT.  That being specifically in response to the question of "why have an LGBT person as a villain unless you're trying to make a statement".  Basically, they're a villain or antagonist because they're people, and some people do things that are bad or bring them into conflict with the protagonist.  Their orientation or gender identity doesn't matter there.



This is _exactly_ what I was trying to say.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 16, 2015)

okay folks, I'm having a rough night, and I wanted to come here and ask some more questions.  Hope this isn't beating a dead horse, but I just got home from what is usually a nice night out, and instead of being relaxed, I'm super anxious and tense, after discussing writing took a turn for LBGTQ characters, and I angered a person who has some sensitivity on the issue. 

Okay, so here's the summary of the discussion:

She mentioned the modern criticism there is for writers of POC and LBGTQ characters, and I agreed that it's a hot button topic right for writers.  I mentioned the steampunk story I told you guys about, with the airship. I said I've been really torn about the work because I really like the concepts of the characters, but I am trying to gain more knowledge so I can do the story justice without bringing up a negative debate of why I chose to make the characters who they are.  I asked whether it's enough to simply use a world where POC are the norm and everyone's a shade of brown, and not discuss race.  Also, if it's expected that if some characters are gay, whether I must show that character's sexuality as part of the story, because it wasn't my intent to ever discuss it. 

She replied that because we as readers live in the real world, where race plays a part of our socialization, and our sexuality has a greater effect on us socially than a mere mention, yes, I should definitely expect to discuss the characters' traits in an open way (in the story), because I made the choice to have a gay character, and why else would I have chosen it to be that way, if I didn't want to write a work that greater explores the implications of race and sexuality, if not to discuss it?

Wha...?

I asked whether that meant she believed I should just write him as a straight white man instead (none of this was disrespectful, BTW, just a question of whether she thought it was the right solution), and she said that I should if I don't want to open myself up to ridicule, because since I cannot understand what it means to be those things, I shouldn't feel I have the right to write it without justification for the choices I made.

Which is in stark contrast to the feedback I received from our members a few days ago. 

What am I missing, here?  Can I not write characters that are POC just the way I'd write a character who's white? She found the very concept disrespectful to "marginalized persons". But I don't understand why. I've struggled with this for years, now, and I don't want to feel like I'm stupid beyond hope, but I don't get it.  I don't get why I can't write a character any way I'd like, as long as I'm taking into consideration how the character will reflect on people who might sympathize more closely with his situation than I personally do.  

Anyways, this conversation lasted more than an hour, and she was visibly agitated as I asked the same questions repeatedly, but she kept answering me in a roundabout way, saying things like, "But we live in the real world, where things like sexual orientation and race have bigger meanings than 'it is what it is'." Which I understand, but my point I kept trying to make was that if I am conscientious of how a character acts and is portrayed, being respectful to whatever traits he and real world people share, can I not write a story in which those traits aren't the major focus of the story?

But every response was seemingly fueled by her feeling I was marginalizing the traits themselves.  That I was somehow saying, "straight, gay, black, white, it's all the same difference and none of it's a big deal." Which I have to admit, in my own mind, I kinda do feel that way, like I don't see why it'd be disrespectful to POC to see an airship captain who's a POC, going on an adventure, but not exploring what it means to him to have dark skin, because in my world, all people have some shade of brown skin. But my point wasn't even taken in the slightest.  I'm wondering whether I just ran into a person who is up in arms and doesn't even know why anymore, or whether there was something inherently disrespectful in the nature of how I dared to write these characters, when I'm not personally similar to them.

Like, doesn't that defeat the attitude of diversity we're so trying to foster?

I'm sorry this thread has gone off course, but I am desperately seeking some answers, because I really want to feel like I understand, and right now, I'm so bummed out by how heated this person got, that i'm questioning why I care to put myself out there at all.  The little voice my head is just mumbling with a confused tone, "this can't be right..."

I think she got really angry with me when I said, "Can't a gay character go on an adventure without thinking about his sexuality?" and she sort of took a deep breath like I do when my kids say something really dumb. 

I felt bad. I guess maybe it was a dumb thing to say? But I meant that I don't think of my sexuality in a lot of situations, and I didn't think I should feel like I have to play it up more for the character, just because he's gay. Like, I've written loads of straight characters who never think of their own sexuality when they're doing redundant things.  Why should it be any different for a character with another sexual preference? Am I supposed to use the lens constantly? Because that seems tedious to me, but I thin she felt it was more of a constant "on" sort of lens? Is that right? I can't imagine why it would be, but perhaps that's why she felt I was being insensitive?

Can anyone help me to understand whether my personal POV and motivation is disrespectful? Because I'm not trying to be, but she has me feeling like my honest attempts to have a civil conversation and learn more about the subject was just ludicrously insensitive, and I feel like I'm doing my very best to fully grasp this concept of writing real people, but showing the diversity I see in my own life. I have gay friends I love dearly, and I would want them to feel like my writing is an example of LBGTQ characterization that they find appealing, though the issues are not the primary focus of the stories.


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## Ireth (Dec 16, 2015)

I have no idea how that friend thought you were being disrespectful. If something is normal for a character, whether it be their skin color or their orientation, of course it's not going to come up often if they're busy thinking about other things. It might come up in description, like "her deeply suntanned skin was still many shades lighter than his" or "the whale's mournful calling reminded Captain X of the husband he'd left three months ago to go on this adventure" (crappy examples, I know), but if you don't want to discuss it at length, then don't. Just drop a few hints here and there, if you like, and leave it at that.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 17, 2015)

You know, Ireth, that's exactly how I see it, too, but as I've encountered this sort of hostile attitude more than once, I'm just questioning WHY I'm seen as insensitive, when I try so hard to be open to everyone's opinion on the matter.  But this conversation left me feeling horrible, because I know I upset her, but I can't for the life of me figure out why. That's why I ran right here, to our friendly forum, to ask you folks what you think. 

I'm in that same position, "If it isn't relevant, don't go into detail," like, if a character's hair color isn't important, mention it once or something, and move on, just like her skin color. I think the statement, "I just don't think about my skin color," is YES, how I feel, but i can understand how when writing a POC character, superimposing my personal attitude on them and their life, isn't the best method. Readers might see that as insensitive to POC who feel they've been marginalized in their lives by a prevailing attitude or a general consent by society to treat them as "different" or whatever.  But in a fantasy novel set in a world where there is no negativity over shade of coloration? I know there are negative portrayals, but I'm just writing stories, and I don't want to limit the scope of my characters by making them by default similar to my own traits.

I'm happy to show all skin tones in a positive light, because I'm the kind of writer who mentions beauty when characters notice it, but I won't be describing every tertiary character and passerby with regard to their coloration, because it's silly.  To me, that's just harping on the thing I just said doesn't matter, right?  Like, if I said, "The stranger in the corner exuded an air of danger, his mouth a tight line and his arms crossed" do I have to mention his coloration, or can a reader envision what they'd like to? I don't think every character needs a definitive description. They can be open to interpretation, and I don't think everything needs to be spelled out for a reader. In fact, I very rarely mention skin color in any of my works.  I believe wholly that a POC could read most of my novels (except perhaps the one based in fake Venice) and fill in the skin shade they'd most aptly relate to, because I rarely mention coloration. I'm much more likely to write about a character's disposition and demeanor, than I am to describe their physical features any way that would suggest a race. I guess it's in my nature to do that, not because I assume every person in my novels is white, but because I think it's so much more important to know they are sporting a sly grin, than that their hair is like polished bronze, or that their skin has a warm, sun kissed glow. 

And same goes for sexuality.  I liked your example, because it's the exact way I see it.  Mention a past love he regrets leaving, but don't go into the details of why he's attracted to men (or gods forbid) try to justify his current attitude in some way, linking his sexuality to former abuse or psychological torment in his youth, or some other suggestion that would negatively impact readers who feel perfectly comfortable with their own sexuality. My goal is not to write a gay character who is made uncomfortable or identified for his sexuality, but to celebrate a freeness that maybe some folks don't experience in our real world? 

Why can't I idealize some things? BY that I mean, why can't I write a world where people have never been made to experience shame or anxiety over the way they are?  We do it all the time as writers, picking those things in history that suit our needs, but abandoning those concepts that are dated and don't fit our modern aesthetics for how we want our worlds to work. We often find it distasteful to write about certain subjects that would hit too close to home for certain readers, and I fully support the concept of trimming the ugly bits out of historical-inspired stories if they don't serve a greater purpose.  Few modern people understand the extent of the ugliness of feudalism, so we write a better version of it that just has classes of rich and poor, not the wanton slaughter of peasants.  Or we portray a young woman as free to decide the course of her own life, rather than lean on the historical reality of her being the property of her father. History had a lot of shitty concepts, and I love that we can make things up for the sake of compelling story-telling, but I wonder why it would be insensitive to portray a gay character as just a man. I mean...isn't he just a man?

Where does the "difference" come in? When he's deciding where the crew will go? When he's ordering drinks and playing cards in the tavern? When a shop keep greets him and asks what he's looking for? When the female mechanic is missing her parents? When the orphan boy is talking to him as a son would his father?  I mean, where in all this am I supposed to make him "more" relatable to LBGTQ persons in our real world?  Aren't LBGTQ persons exactly the same as anyone else? Don't they know what loneliness feels like when you're far from home? Don't they have families they love, or long to be mothers and fathers? Don't they fight the same urge to drown their sorrows, or internalize their fears? That's what I write about, and it makes me really uneasy to think I need to somehow explain their traits as more important than the immediate elements of the story. This is what I find ludicrous in the scope of the discussion we were having tonight. It's just so confusing to me, I can't stand it. I feel like there exists a secret, and I'm not being let in on it, or something. Like, "you can't understand what it's like, so don't try to write it, because it'll just result in a negative portrayal, because you can't relate." How unfair! What's the password to get into the club, already? I want to get in.

All I want to do is write a perfectly normal character, not direct attention to how he differs from me, in a way that makes it appear he's in any way abnormal or less than awesome because of his sexual preference or the color of his skin. I want to do justice to any character I write, regardless of whether they're like me or not.  In fact, on the outside, people might assume a fair amount of incorrect things about me, too.  I certainly know how unfair that feels, being judged by my appearance. I write a fair amount of, "wow, you're not what I thought you were," kinds of moments into my stories, but I try to pick things with which I'm intimately familiar, like parental conflicts, family issues, coming of age things, or love and friendship.

Anyways, I do apologize to everyone here who feels this subject has already been exhausted.  I sympathize, fully.  I felt really confused a couple years ago, when I was first called insensitive about racial issues, and I've taken it very personally, though in my heart, I feel like I don't want to relate to the attitudes present in our society. I realized that my idealistic attitude was perhaps too naive, and I've since, given great consideration to how people other than me feel about the subject.  I'm deeply saddened that people are discriminated against in this society, because it only hurts us all when we do it. 

I hope I can contribute to the cure for such small-mindedness, but I sure can't do it if i'm unwittingly perpetuating a negative portrayal of people who have been wounded by discrimination in the past.  And like I said, when I publish my novels, I want to be sure that I've done my very best job to consider all the potential pitfalls of stepping outside of my race, gender, and sexual preference, and display characters who are representative of what I wish the world was like. I hope that idealism isn't what people are offended by, because honestly, I just don't know how to solve that problem, and the last thing I want to do is end up embittered by my own acceptance of attitudes with which I don't agree.


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## Miskatonic (Dec 17, 2015)

As long as the character's existence in the story serves some meaningful purpose then it shouldn't matter what their race, religion, sexual preference or gender are.

I may very well have homosexual characters because it pertains to certain cultures and would shed light on their beliefs.


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## JCFarnham (Dec 17, 2015)

I'll bet any money Caged Maiden that your friend was touching on Discourse Theory, but going about it with no concrete knowledge and with the wrong attitude.

Basically there is a theory within marketing that states that intention is only one small part of an adverts final meaning within society. As someone views it they bring their own opinions and beliefs, their own discourse, to the table. Subsequently they'll probably describe the advert to a friend or work colleague in a biased way coloured by their opinion of it. That friend now does not see the advert with fresh eyes and instead adds their own discourse to their friends initial opinions. On and on over time the advert gathers in this way extra meaning and definition based in what society as a whole has decided about it.

Eventually even the creator has no control over the discussions her advert starts. 

Basically you may intend to write a book about lgbtq characters that doesn't discuss those things, but inevitably people are going to want to talk about that anyway. It's a process over which you have limited control unless you then engage in the discussion yourself. I think you've got to be ready to defend regardless. Which is a bit sad really...

Thankfully the solution is simple, we should all write the characters we want as long as we're mindful of others (which shouldn't be that difficult for most people, right?). I'm not going to stop writing about my lesbian wizard mc just because I'm a guy and "shouldn't". I'm still going try and mitigate possible issues even though they aren't what the book is about but it'll gather the discourse it does at the end of the day. Just have to hope for the best. The world isn't fix just yet...


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## Nimue (Dec 17, 2015)

I can't speak for this other person, but I think that there can be some negative implications to this opinion:

"I'm colorblind, so I'm going to treat this character exactly as though they were white, and nobody will care that they aren't."  This can imply belief that minorities aren't treated differently in real life, or that if the issues that are visible and obvious _to you_ are solved, then racism is over, regardless of what POC are saying.  That is, colorblindness can double as a way to ignore real issues.

There are problems with the extreme of the other stance as well--"Every story about a gay person needs to be about Gay Issues and let's shelve it under Special Alternative Literature in the bookstore" but I'll try and focus on your side because this other person isn't here to discuss their opinions.

The other issue with a "colorblind" stance assumes that what seems like neutral ground _to you_ is completely objective, and can't possibly contain unintentional stereotypes or negative attitudes. Racism isn't always people purposefully setting out with hate in their hearts; it can be unconsciously regurgitating what society's taught you.  Not being racist or homophobic is an _active process_, unless you were born on the moon.  Research is your friend; reading opinions from or asking questions of people who belong to the group you're trying to write within is the best idea.  The Internet is a wonderful resource in that regard.

Moreover, there is a difference between approaching it like "I want this character to have a story arc and development as deep and varied as any other, about adventure rather than gay/black issues" and "I want to write this character as though they were white and straight, with absolutely no difference to their background or culture."  The latter strikes me as a reason to evade research.  Even if prejudice against him doesn't exist in the sense that it does today, doesn't he have roots?  How does he feel, living in a majority white/straight culture? (Assuming that is where the story's set.) There are other aspects to a minority experience than fear of violence or discrimination: isolation, marginalization, the search for community and self-affirmation.

The thing is that your approach to this seems so passive.  You have two choices:  you can write what you want and set it out there, and people will form their own opinions. (And I really think you shouldn't base your expectations about hypothetical backlash on how angry people get while arguing on the Internet, but that's something for another thread). This choice seems to be the one you want to take, but you're fretting and worrying so much about it that I'll give you another choice:  take an active stance.  Put what you want people to get out of your book _in your book_.  I'm not saying that you need to make the plot revolve around Issues, or that you need to make the story world hate your character to make it clear that you think real-world discrimination matters.  This isn't all or nothing. 

Have one of the airship crew say stolidly "He's my captain.  Doesn't matter to me."  Have other characters react with even keels to mentions of his past lovers.  Have him quip when someone asks "where he's from, really."  Have someone derisively mention a foreign country where they don't let black people vote.  Wild examples, but without knowing more of your story I'm just sort of swinging here.

Bottom line is, if you're worried people might take this character as a message, put in another black character who's completely different from him.  Put in white alcoholics.  Put in a well-adjusted gay woman.  I'm not saying that you need to turn your main cast into doppelgÃ¤ngers, just put other people in the world somewhere.  Turn a side character into a foil.  Give him old friends who are also gay, give him family.  It's just a straightforward way to make it clear that you're not trying to connect his background to his flaws.

I hope this doesn't come across as though I'm attacking your approach or anything.  I'm just trying to honestly answer your questions from the limited point of view that I have.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 17, 2015)

Oh Caged Maiden I'm so sorry that happened to you  

This is where writing is really, really hard. I in a similar place right now. Remember my pirate story I was going to send you my outline too? Yeah. Not even started. I have literally done NO writing in the past few weeks. Nothing. I'm in a weird mental place right now. Too worked up about too many stupid things, like this. 

Anyway, back to the topic: 

The other night I was talking to my parents about a movie they just watched called "This is Where I Leave You". At the end of the movie the mother comes out as a lesbian and it is all funny, ha haha ha. Whatever. This sort of thing does not bother me at all, infact, I'm glad to see homosexuality, or any sexuality, portrayed in the media in order to 'normalize it.' And the reason I want to normalize it because my parent's response to the film was "Well, why do they have to throw _gays_ in all the time, now?" 

Yes. Yes, my parents are a bit homophobic. They would have been totally fine if the mother claimed she had a new boyfriend. But a girl friend? Noooooooo! Too weird for them. 

Whether it is explicit (In Jessica Jones, the lawyer is divorcing her wife to marry her sexy secretary and this does play a large part of the characterization) or implicit (Did you know Dumbledore was gay? Well, did you?) it doesn't matter. 

What I _do_ have a problem with is _insert token lesbian/gay/transgendered person here so that your story looks like it is modern and trendy_. I do sort of have a problem with that. 

In "The Imitation Game" they tied the MC's sexuality into the struggles that he faced as a person. I thought that it was done very well, and it added a lot of sympathy to the character. I think that if Dumbledore would have come out at Hogwarts not everyone would have been all sunshine and rainbows about it. It hasn't been touched on in Jessica Jones, but there is a _biracial_ relationship, and the guy does question her, when she is being aloof: "Is it racial?….I'm kidding. But is it?" 

I don't know. I'm rambling. All I'm saying is that, when I write a LGTB character I _do_ allow that character to have relationships, thoughts, struggles, passions, just like any other character. However, I identify as Bisexual, and hypersexual, so I have no problems writing about a woman pirate remembering her lost lover, and the smell of her hair and the taste of her sweat. If I'm writing an adult story I don't make them live in a sexual vacuum. 

Geez. I have no clue what I'm even talking about anymore.


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## Ireth (Dec 17, 2015)

I have problems with a similar issue: asexual representation. I can't remember the last time I read a story where the MC, or any character really, was stated outright to be ace. I've seen characters who are _probably_ ace, given that they show no sexual interest in anyone, but that's all conjecture. And I _really_ don't appreciate seeing very-likely-ace characters shoehorned into ridiculously out-of-place relationships in adaptations of their stories. (Yes, Peter Jackson, I'm looking at you and your Bagginshield ship!)

*deep breath*

I honestly have no idea how to handle it in my own stories, either, despite identifying as ace myself. I don't tend toward romantic subplots in my stories (save for one that popped up unexpectedly and I just kind of ran with it), so showing that a character is ace by showing them to not be with or interested in anyone doesn't seem effective. I don't particularly want to have someone aim to get into my ace MCs' pants just to have them say "Sorry, I'm asexual."


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## Heliotrope (Dec 17, 2015)

In that case, Ireth, I wonder why you wouldn't? 

I mean, why not? 

"I'm sorry, I just, I don't… please don't take this the wrong way, but I just don't feel that way, about anybody." 

"You mean, never? You never want to…." 

"No." 

I mean, she doesn't have to use the term asexual, but why not use that as part of the tension? Make it a way that the two people have to forge their relationship in a different sort of way that isn't sexual? Show that it can be done? Bring it to the forefront a bit? 

It this case, I think I _would_ use it as part of her characterization.

I mean, we have all seen the Tyrion Lannisters or the Cercie Lannisters of the world a thousand times. Why not let the reader have a different sort of hero, and be explicit about it?


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## Heliotrope (Dec 17, 2015)

There was a series on a while back called Schitt's Creek that I loved. The son in the show was 'gay', but had a romantic interlude with a woman. One day they are at the liquor store buying wine for a party and things are really awkward and confusing. I thought this was genius. 

Again, if you are going to have a LGTB character, why not?


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## Ireth (Dec 17, 2015)

Heliotrope said:


> In that case, Ireth, I wonder why you wouldn't?
> 
> I mean, why not?
> 
> ...



I see what you mean, but it wouldn't work with every story. One of my ace MCs is a teen with the power to hop from realm to realm; during the first instance she ends up befriending a dragon, only to be "rescued" by a misguided knight who sees himself as entitled to have her. So yes, in that instance I would definitely have her say "Dude, no. Just no."

On the other hand, in a fanfic with a self-insert protagonist, I don't think making other characters attracted to me would be fitting. To me, wish fulfillment is staying single and NOT having people expressing romantic or sexual interest in me. At all.

Or, in a story where the MC's problems stem from having his dead sister's soul stuck inside his head, and he spends the entire book away from anyone who could conceivably take such an interest in him... yeah, hard to say what happens there. Literally the only other important characters in the book are the MC's sister, two male mentor characters (who are already in a committed relationship with each other) and the villain. Shoving any sort of MC-centered romance in there would be wildly inappropriate even if he wasn't asexual.


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## FifthView (Dec 17, 2015)

First, I want to apologize in advance if anything I write here is unclear or seems to take statements out of context or to read statements incorrectly.  I woke today with a headache, my head is still full of achy fuzz, and I might be coming down with something.  In short, I'm finding it hard to think clearly.  But there were a few things that stood out to me that I wanted to address.

@Caged Maiden:  Your two long comments are so full of various issues, I'm not sure I can unpack them all!  There's also the danger (for me) of not having all the context, both for the conversation you had with your friend and with your stories.  As with pretty much everything to do with writing, execution makes a HUGE difference.  And the problem is that I, not seeing the execution, can only make broad statements about an issue like this, which may or may not apply to your current situation.

I can't speak to the issue of POC characters very well, because I have no experience being a POC.  But I am a gay man, so I feel I can address the issue of portrayal of LGBT characters.  Even there, LGBT people come from such a wide variety of backgrounds and have a wide variety of personalities and expectations, I don't feel I can speak for ALL LGBT people.  (Even each of those designations–L., G., B., & T.–will have differences, among them!)

One point that I want to address is this:




Caged Maiden said:


> And same goes for sexuality.  I liked your example, because it's the exact way I see it.  Mention a past love he regrets leaving, but don't go into the details of why he's attracted to men (or gods forbid) try to justify his current attitude in some way, linking his sexuality to former abuse or psychological torment in his youth, or some other suggestion that would negatively impact readers who feel perfectly comfortable with their own sexuality. *My goal is not to write a gay character who is made uncomfortable or identified for his sexuality*, but to celebrate a freeness that maybe some folks don't experience in our real world?



The danger is in believing that this is ALL that it means to be gay.  I mean:  experiencing persecution, discrimination, bigotry, being made to feel inferior, and so forth.  This, incidentally, is a danger for both, people who are LGBT and people who are on the outside looking in.  I am tempted to say that this experience of persecution, social doubts, and so forth is not even a trait of LGBT people so much as it is a trait of the society in which they live.  In LGBT people, it's not a "trait" so much as a reaction to the exterior environment.  When imagining a fantasy world that has had a different history than our own, all these features might entirely (or mostly) disappear or be non-issues.

As a gay man, I put on my socks every morning just like other people.  I go throughout the day never (or rarely) even thinking about my socks.  But being gay is not like that.  Being gay is pretty much a 24/7 thing, and there are a hundred or thousands of little experiences every day that tie into it or are informed by it.  This can be anything from happening to catch a glimpse of another man passing on the street and feeling an unusual physical attraction to seeing a heterosexual married couple playing with their three kids on the beach.  Here's a test.  Go to Google Images and type in "married couple" and see what pops up.  

For me personally...and I really hate knowing this, there have been times when, without realizing it, I've treated an employee in a _slightly_ more forgiving manner simply because I found him attractive.  This isn't a conscious, "Oh he's cute.  I'll give him a break." sort of thing, and it's only thinking back on it, months after he's quit without notice, etc., where I realize that maybe that's what I had done, and how stupid of me.  The typical clichÃ© hetero example would be the attractive woman not given a traffic ticket by a male cop.

In short, there are way too many examples I could give where "being gay" is experienced in a way that doesn't involve persecution, bigotry, feeling sorry for myself or sad about "being gay."    _Otherness_ just _is_, and it isn't always experienced as _being other_.

So the idea of having a single line somewhere in which a POV character briefly thinks about a past same-sex relationship, but then spending the next 400 pages without so much as another single thought informed by his being gay, strikes me as wrong.  That's tokenism, of a sort.  This could especially be a problem when the character is a POV character, since his voice will be informed by everything that he is.  Another example.  Tyrion Lannister.  In _his_ world, he is overtly discriminated against and this shapes our experience of that world but also his own POV voice.  But even if he lived in a different world entirely, where being a dwarf is a non-issue, he'd still experience life as a dwarf.  There would be situations where he had difficulty mounting a horse, reaching something from a high shelf, etc.  EVEN IF in this world all those exigencies have simple solutions–like, he has the magic to levitate–the very use of those solutions would draw attention to his dwarfism and his experiences of employing those solutions and would shape his POV voice.

Final note:  There's a difference between consciously ruminating on an issue and experiencing a reality subconsciously or without putting it into abstractions.  A person can experience being gay without having to think 24/7 about the _issue_ of being gay.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 17, 2015)

Thanks, JC. I think what you're saying is what I expected, that some people will say I had a great story (or not), and some people will pick out the fact that one of the MCs was gay, and couldn't he have been a little "more" gay, so it didn't feel like I was trying to make him a straight man but put a different sexuality in as a token trait that isn't part of the story, and that's disrespectful to the people in our real world who are openly proud of their fight to bring equality and rights to people who sometimes struggle for acceptance. And then the other side will be people who read it and think I should have just made him straight from the beginning because "it wasn't necessary" and dumb to make that decision because it has the potential for alienating readers with strong views on preserving traditional family values, and so on and so forth.

I fully expect to have some small polarizing effect on some readers, but honestly, I'm not writing to cater to the people who frequent message boards and forums to express their embittered, hateful words of "you shouldn't write this because you're not living it, and you can't truly understand." No, I can't truly understand the struggles of a gay, POC man in our modern society, any more than I can understand the responsibility a captain feels when his past caught up to him and now it's putting his loyal crew in harm's way. But I think I can sympathize, and I feel like I can write a gripping tale about these characters in a world of my creation. And I think I can do it with respect and humbleness, and in honor of the people I love who do face these personal struggles and cannot ever "forget" that they are different from what society tells them they should be, or however you might tactfully say that. 

I understand both sides of all those things, and honestly, it's a can of worms I'm willing to open, just a little.  My ultimate goal is to write a world where people aren't shunned at work (like my lesbian friend, who felt she couldn't reveal that she WAS in fact married, but to a woman, when her coworkers asked). I want there to be no shame in being what you are, and there is no stigma attached to either race or sexuality, because for me, I wish people experienced that in our world. I'm not setting out to change people's mind about anything, though, just to portray human characters as diverse and not limited by a society that forces its ideal on everyone, whether it be religious, racial, regarding sexuality, or any other "hot button topic" we currently face as real people.  

I appreciate where this woman was coming from, but I don't think she was listening to me, instead assuming I was making decisions to write token characters, and the portrayals of the characters would be somehow the focus of the story, and that it would create a negative impression of people for which she sympathizes, as a member of those communities. I can fully relate to her desire to not see another representation done for no reason other than to "throw an issue in there" and make it a point of conflict, because honestly, if someone took one of my issues, say, bipolar, and made a character that was a negative representation of what it means to be bipolar, I might be offended that they didn't research the condition better. It's something I've lived with for 20 years, and it's made life really hard at times, and I feel sensitive to the issue, and would want to see it done justice, not become a character flaw that served no purpose other than existing. 

She mentioned autism in writing, too, because she works with autistic children, and said that it's misunderstood and represented poorly in literature, and I can fully understand that subject, too.  I have friends with autistic kids, I know a few autistic adults, and I know a number of our members fall within the autism spectrum, and honestly, if I were going to write a story about a character with autism or an autistic child, I'd come here and do my research just as I'm doing for this particular story, to get the full scope and the honesty of the issue before writing it.  I'm just unclear why people automatically assume your writing will portray characters with hot button traits as negative, and I certainly saw she was getting frustrated with me, but I don't know what I could have done to assure her I'm well aware of how people feel, but I want to be true to myself, too, and portray characters as diverse, though I may not be categorized as particularly diverse myself? 

Just one more question, folks, while this subject is still open. (I probably should have taken this to PMs, but I really hope our discussion benefits other writers here, not just me)What qualifies a story as LGBTQ? I don't understand whether a story is considered fitting simply on the merit of having characters who are LGBTQ, or whether the story is expected to explore the social ramifications of being so? Like, am I writing a LGBTQ story as I've described it, or am I simply writing a fantasy story that happens to have LGBTQ characters? I'm unclear. Like I said, agents are hungry for books that fall into the category, but I'm not sure whether they expect the stories to be more skewed toward romance then, or whether a fantasy adventure that has no real romantic elements would qualify? Is it a matter of portraying characters as diverse, or exploring the effect of sexuality on the overall persons in the story?

Okay, just one more question. Since we have this awesome, diverse community, would people here be open to a crit group focusing on LGBTQ works? I'd seriously like to begin such a crit group, where we could discuss these issues in less of a public forum, and take it to private emails and the sharing of work regardless of whether it's going to be ultimately published.  I'd really like to learn more about how I can improve my own writing and incorporate diverse characters, without posting to a public forum like Scribophile.


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## Heliotrope (Dec 17, 2015)

On my phone so can't thanks. But thanks fifth view!


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## Ireth (Dec 17, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> Just one more question, folks, while this subject is still open. (I probably should have taken this to PMs, but I really hope our discussion benefits other writers here, not just me)What qualifies a story as LGBTQ? I don't understand whether a story is considered fitting simply on the merit of having characters who are LGBTQ, or whether the story is expected to explore the social ramifications of being so? Like, am I writing a LGBTQ story as I've described it, or am I simply writing a fantasy story that happens to have LGBTQ characters? I'm unclear. Like I said, agents are hungry for books that fall into the category, but I'm not sure whether they expect the stories to be more skewed toward romance then, or whether a fantasy adventure that has no real romantic elements would qualify? Is it a matter of portraying characters as diverse, or exploring the effect of sexuality on the overall persons in the story?



That's a good question. I think it qualifies when the main characters are LGBT and that impacts the storyline in some significant way. Largely this seems to be in a romantic sense, from what I've seen, but I'm sure that isn't the only way to do it.



Caged Maiden said:


> Okay, just one more question. Since we have this awesome, diverse community, would people here be open to a crit group focusing on LGBTQ works? I'd seriously like to begin such a crit group, where we could discuss these issues in less of a public forum, and take it to private emails and the sharing of work regardless of whether it's going to be ultimately published.  I'd really like to learn more about how I can improve my own writing and incorporate diverse characters, without posting to a public forum like Scribophile.



I'd be all for that. ^^


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 17, 2015)

I realized that an hour has gone by from when I began my last post and actually posted it.  i wanted to thank Fifth and Nimue personally for their responses, because I wholeheartedly feel like you hit the core of what my understanding is, and the limitations it has, too.

I can't be gay, or understand the struggle of a gay person in our modern society, but I feel sympathy for my friends who live these struggles every day.  My aim is to approach any character with as impartial an attitude as I can muster, with respect to their race, gender, and sexuality.  I sincerely hope that I can do justice to the people who deal with societal attitudes I do not share. 

Thank you for taking the time to respond so thoroughly.  I really want to write characters as I see them, and I'm trying to open my mind fully to the things I cannot personally relate to, hearing experiences from people I know and love, and those of strangers who talk with me here, giving me their personal feelings on issues I can't probably ever fully understand, though it's my desire to do as much as I can, without cheapening their personal experiences by saying, "yeah, I get it, now can I write it?"

This community continues to astound me for its collective compassion and openness, and I just want you all to know how much it means to me that you take your time to help me.

Helio, thank you so much for sharing the writing journey with me personally, and with this community.  I'm not glad you're struggling with the same issue as I am, but I'm glad that we can share our passion for writing characters who don't fit into our default demographic.

Guys, I know some of the words I'm using may not be the politically correct ones, like "trait", but I hope you can forgive my attempts to explain my thoughts without being particularly knowledgeable about what the correct words are. I'm really trying, and I feel very strongly about the message i'm trying to send in my writing--that I want to celebrate a unique character, not for how he's different from me, but because he can shine on his own, without my drawing unnecessary attention to his personal identity in regards to race or sexuality. I'm absolutely going to give my execution a fair amount of scrutiny, and ask people to read this work that can relate more closely to the character's race and sexuality. We've all seen poorly portrayed characters, and I'm going to be very careful with what I present, but it's certainly causing me a bit of aggravation in feeling I have the right to begin the story. 

Thank you all so much for your continued support.  You make me smile, and your compassion and patience with me is greatly appreciated.


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## Ireth (Dec 17, 2015)

Caged Maiden said:


> I realized that an hour has gone by from when I began my last post and actually posted it.  i wanted to thank Fifth and Nimue personally for their responses, because I wholeheartedly feel like you hit the core of what my understanding is, and the limitations it has, too.
> 
> I can't be gay, or understand the struggle of a gay person in our modern society, but I feel sympathy for my friends who live these struggles every day.  My aim is to approach any character with as impartial an attitude as I can muster, with respect to their race, gender, and sexuality.  I sincerely hope that I can do justice to the people who deal with societal attitudes I do not share.
> 
> ...



I'm out of thanks for a while, but the sentiment is there. And you're very welcome, too. ^^


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## JCFarnham (Dec 17, 2015)

As far as I'm aware LGBTQ literature is a genre in which being LGBTQ, as Ireth says, impacts the story in some way. Kind of like how having a romantic subplot doesn't necessarily qualify a book as a romance.  I'd go as far to say your story wouldn't be considered "pure" LGBTQ for that reason, but then again it's no doubt an incredibly grey area and I'm not an agent nor a publisher (obviously). I'd also guess that if you have a wide enough variety of LGBTQ outweighing the hetero element then it might be considered part of the genre?

Incidentally I'd love to see a group like that CM. We need more safe places for topic like this. I fear these discussions often hit a trigger at some point making education difficult if not impossible...

So yeah! Go for it.


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 17, 2015)

I set up a thread in Writing Groups, so I'd love it if you guys signed up.  I think open discussions apart from this forum would be ideal, because I feel terribly guilty of taking up too much digital real estate with my posts already!

I'm really concerned with privacy and feelings of safety and trust, so I put some suggestions in the thread, but I'm open to any better suggestions.  I know a lot of people still don't use other social media like Facebook or google+ groups, so I think emails is the best way to share material for critique, but please weigh in if you have something better: http://mythicscribes.com/forums/writing-groups/15720-diversity-writing-group.html#post225684

Let's get this rolling!


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## Caged Maiden (Dec 17, 2015)

Also, to Fifth, I really listened to what you said earlier, and it was floating around in my head as I was driving to the doctor's this afternoon, and I think I really absorbed what you were saying.  When i listened to the radio, there was a generous amount of love mentioned, but all of it was heterosexual mentions, a man singing to a woman, or a woman singing about a man. And I think I'm grasping in a small way what you mean about constant reminders of a concept that doesn't resonate with a person who is of a sexuality different than the subject matter.  You know, I wouldn't balk at a song about a homosexual relationship, but I can see how just the absence of such songs automatically has an effect on a person. I'll let this concept continue to bounce around in my skull, but than you for bringing it up.  I'm listening. I'm trying to get it. And I think there's at least some hope for me


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## imagine123 (Dec 25, 2015)

Just read through the backlog and I've got a few thoughts.

As a black woman, there are a few sensitivities to having "other" people write characters that are supposed to represent me. And maybe that's just because a lot of the time, the minority character is the _only_ minority character, so they become a monolith, an plug-in that comes to represent everyone of that race/creed/sexual orientation/etc. You read a story or watch a movie where everyone is white or straight or cis or what-have-you, except for one character...whatever that one character does, whoever they are, becomes _incredibly_ important. For example, I like watching old movies. Most of the time, in these movies, you don't see black people, or if you do, they are relegated to servants, or comedic relief, or something vaguely racist. I'm watching Christmas in Connecticut right now, and there are two (count'em!) black people who perform short roles. One is a woman, a delivery person of some sort, and the other is a male waiter. What I really like about them is they are both articulate (and in the waiter's case, smart) characters, which is above and beyond what I would expect from a movie from the 40s (kind of the exception to the rule). You could swap them in for white actors, and there'd be no problems.

Compare this to Gone with the Wind, which has a larger black cast, but all of them are slaves and act very insultingly. Swap them in with white actors, and you'd wonder why the hell they are acting so weird. So while I like watching Gone with the Wind, I'm frequently uncomfortable with how black people are portrayed. And if I'm reading a book or watching a movie where there's only one black person, I'm going to be very focused on how they act or are portrayed, and if they act in an insulting or a supposedly stereotypical manner, I'm going to be very uncomfortable, if not out-right irritated.

However, it would seem that racism is something brought about by our world's history. If you take characters out of this world and into a fantasy world, I don't see any problem with not focusing on race or sexual orientation or any of those distinguishing characteristics. That's why, @Caged Maiden, I think the way you were planning/writing your story makes perfect sense. If there's no history to lead to the development of racism, why in the hell would you focus on race other than in regards to character description? And if it's obvious that the characters are not based in our world, then I see no point in justifying why characters aren't focusing on their differences. It'd be like someone writing a story based in our world where a character focuses on the fact that their ears flare out while another person's ears are flat against their skull (I'm assuming that there's no movement for or against how close people's ears are to their heads). It makes no sense.



WooHooMan said:


> I would like more fantasy stories that are actually about LGBT characters instead of characters who, by the way, are LGBT.



Funnily enough, I would rather read more stories about characters that are "by the way" LGBT/black/whatever, because I think that would make help with the "normalization" of those characteristics, as someone put it in prior posts. If you focus on the distinguishing characteristic, you are making it something worth focusing on, and unless you are writing the story in a world where that would be focused on, it would be obvious you are making it an issue. Someone was talking about having an asexual character, and how they would show definitively that they are asexual. My initial thought was, _unless asexuality has something to do with the story, why do you need to show definitively that they are asexual?_ Then I realized that sexual orientations would need to be shown definitively if you wanted it to be "canon" for that character. Because, otherwise, people would assume that they are straight. Which kind of sucks...

Even when you spell it out, you're gonna have people who are going to assume otherwise. You guys remember that whole mess with Rue in the Hunger Games? How, even though the author made it very clear that Rue was black or the equivalent, people still expected her to be played by a white girl? Smh.

I know for my part, I've got a rather diverse cast. Most of the people who live in my world are brown-skinned, varying in shades. People focus on nationality and religion rather than skin color. My leading heroine is dark-skinned (as in, black, not brown) and straight. Another protagonist is light-skinned and straight. There are two characters that are gay, and they come from a culture where the idea is that you can love anyone regardless of gender. Another character is asexual, and I was planning on showing this by comparing him to his sister, who is all about having sex. Another I'm still playing with, and I call him a 'he' because he identifies more on the masculine-side of androgyny, but he might be stuck in a woman's body (that's the part I'm playing with). I was just going to have certain characters who know him well call him a 'he', and others who just see him call him a 'she', but...

In one case, one of the protagonists was left with his grandparents to be raised. Originally, I had it that his father left his mother and him, but I decided to switch it to his mother left his father and him. I wanted the mother to be connected with another character in a romantic way, but I had already decided that _that_ character was a woman. I decided to make that character bisexual to fit the change (bi because she might end up falling in love with a man later on). I think the only characteristics that I intended on having from the outset was differences in skin color. All the differences in sexual orientation/identity came around because it would increase the tension in inter-character relationships or (in the case of the androgynous character) because it made sense regarding the characteristics of the people/race...not because I wanted to check off boxes or talk about diversity issues.


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