# Why the hero's journey?



## EccentricGentleman (Jul 24, 2013)

I'm familiar with the concept of the hero's journey, when I took a course in creative writing my tutor laid out each step for me. Told me that every great story ever told or whatever would be told is a hero's journey. But I still don't understand why we need it. What's the point of moulding our story around this pre-existing skeleton? I've been told that we all relate to the hero's journey but I don't understand how or why.

Also, my understanding of the hero's journey is that the hero starts out with some kind of character flaw, cowardice, emotional issues, lack of experience etc… and when he goes to the hero's journey specifically targets that flaw and forces him to fix it so by the end he is a much more evolved, well rounded person. But I'm planning on writing a series of books involving the same characters, and if I have to have them overcome an inherent flaw at the end of every book then eventually they're going to have no flaws left and no one likes a character like that.


----------



## BWFoster78 (Jul 24, 2013)

> What's the point of moulding our story around this pre-existing skeleton?



Because it works.

Most books you read and movies you watch can be fit into this structure.



> I've been told that we all relate to the hero's journey but I don't understand how or why.



Valid comment, and one that I don't feel entirely qualified to answer.  Perhaps because most stories we've ever had told to us has this basic format, we expect it and respond to it.  Perhaps there's something innate about the format that speaks to us psychologically.

All I know is that it works and, if you're not going to use it, you probably need to pay a lot more attention to your story arc.  I will say that the trick, I think, isn't to think of it as a formula as much as a structure and to be creative in your application of it.



> Also, my understanding of the hero's journey is that the hero starts out with some kind of character flaw, cowardice, emotional issues, lack of experience etc… and when he goes to the hero's journey specifically targets that flaw and forces him to fix it so by the end he is a much more evolved, well rounded person. But I'm planning on writing a series of books involving the same characters, and if I have to have them overcome an inherent flaw at the end of every book then eventually they're going to have no flaws left and no one likes a character like that.



I think you have to consider the entire series and how that fits into the structure.  The growth in the character doesn't happen, necessarily, after the first book but at the end when the final challenge is overcome.  The trick is to have a character arc that progresses throughout the series.


----------



## EccentricGentleman (Jul 24, 2013)

> I think you have to consider the entire series and how that fits into the structure. The growth in the character doesn't happen, necessarily, after the first book but at the end when the final challenge is overcome. The trick is to have a character arc that progresses throughout the series.



I haven't thought that far ahead, i'd like the freedom to just make up each installment as I go.

Again, is every story a hero's journey?


----------



## Steerpike (Jul 24, 2013)

Not every story is a hero's journey, and you don't have to use it in your own writing. But it seems to have a sort of universal appeal to human beings.


----------



## Devor (Jul 24, 2013)

The hero's journey works because somebody gave it a name and a package and explained it.

But I really wish somebody would name and package and explain some other formulas because I'd love to see people talk about new things and then mix and match.


----------



## Butterfly (Jul 24, 2013)

Article

I'm going for the mountain...


----------



## Steerpike (Jul 24, 2013)

That's an interesting link, Butterfly. I don't think these are necessarily mutually-exclusive, though. I think you could follow "the mountain" and still have a hero's journey.


----------



## Trick (Jul 24, 2013)

> What's the point of moulding our story around this pre-existing skeleton?


Because the villains journey doesn't have a readership.

I'm not saying you can't write from the POV of the villain, but often times in works like that, they turn out to be the hero anyway. This, as BW said, is a structure. It's not so tightly controlled that you can't be a writer with a story like none other - it just means that stories follow a certain structure and most successful books and movies etc can be broken down this way. There is also the idea of open ended stories that don't complete the structure so you can always go that route. 

If you watch Dr Horrible's Sing-Along Blog (which is hysterical BTW) it's story arc is actually kind of unique. It follows a villain who is obviously good at heart and there's a hero who is so prideful, narcissistic and careless that he's almost a villain. The ending is what get's you though. 



Spoiler: Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog



When the girl he loves dies in a debacle between him and the 'hero' Dr. Horrible actually becomes a real villain because he now has the darkness one needs to be evil. It ends that way, without him ever being redeemed and with the 'hero' being in therapy. Loved the idea of a broken story structure.


----------



## Chessie (Jul 24, 2013)

I like the idea of a hero's journey as a more emotional/internal one. Life itself is a journey, so this is something we can all relate to. Journeys take on different approaches so it doesn't all have to be cheesy. My current WIP is a personal journey of how the protagonist grows to become a villain in the next story. I find it fascinating.


----------



## EccentricGentleman (Jul 24, 2013)

Thanks for the feedback. 

But to get back to one of my points, how do I write a series if my main character has to resolve something within himself every time? As I said, I want to make it up as I go.

On the other hand, d9o I have to do this? as far as I can see this emotional journy didn't happen in Indiana Jones or any of the Sherlock Holmes stories.


----------



## Steerpike (Jul 24, 2013)

Like I said above, you don't have to follow it. Its something that shows up across cultures in myths and seems to resonate with humans on a certain level. You aren't bound by it.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 24, 2013)

EccentricGentleman said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> But to get back to one of my points, how do I write a series if my main character has to resolve something within himself every time? As I said, I want to make it up as I go.
> 
> On the other hand, d9o I have to do this? as far as I can see this emotional journy didn't happen in Indiana Jones or any of the Sherlock Holmes stories.



First off, no you don't have to do this. Many stories feature main characters that are unchanging. However, many of those have supporting characters who do change. They help move the story.

Second, you don't have to have your character resolve something each installment. There are many different story options within a character arc. Resolution is but one of those ways.

The three major topics for arc are growth, change, & fall. Within these the variations are limited only by your imagination.


----------



## Scribble (Jul 24, 2013)

EccentricGentleman said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> But to get back to one of my points, how do I write a series if my main character has to resolve something within himself every time? As I said, I want to make it up as I go.
> 
> On the other hand, d9o I have to do this? as far as I can see this emotional journy didn't happen in Indiana Jones or any of the Sherlock Holmes stories.



There are a few genres where it is typical that the protagonist doesn't change at all. Sherlock Holmes is a perfect example. Some swashbuckling action, especially episodic stuff that's also the case. It works in those kind of stories. 

In fantasy, if your protagonist is a hero with nothing to overcome except for beating up bad guys, then they already possess everything needed to do the job. It can be entertaining, but only so far as the action is interesting. 

The protagonist doesn't need to be a hero. They can be many other things, but there is an expectation of transformation. When it doesn't happen, most people will become bored with the character. Indiana Jones does transform. but it's subtle. He tries not to care for anything except the treasure, but only when he cares more for people does he succeed. Indy constantly fails, all the time because he is always after the treasure. It's a kind of repetitive moral lesson. But, he's got just enough wiles that once in a wile he tricks fate that seems to want to teach him to be a "good boy".


----------



## Feo Takahari (Jul 24, 2013)

It's better to just write the story, then let others determine what interpretation they can use to make it fit their models. Because the hero's journey can be so broadly interpreted, it's only natural that most stories can be squeezed into it, like a horoscope that's accurate for everyone who reads it.


----------



## Chessie (Jul 24, 2013)

Absolutely, Feo. 

Another example that comes to mind is Hercule Poirot and Miss Marple in Agatha Christie's crime series. I'm a huge Christie fan and have a hefty collection of her works. Even though both of these characters stay the same throughout their series, I'm still drawn to them and the way they solve cases. There's always something new going on with the stories and their approach to what's going on. So its totally possible to have a good fan base that follows your character throughout several stories and still have freshness going on for your audience.


----------



## ThinkerX (Jul 24, 2013)

Hmmm...

Most (all?) of the major characters in Glen Cooks popular 'Black Company' series do not follow the 'hero's journey'.  They end up doing the 'right thing', but do so out of self interested pragmatism.

Likewise, the major 'Bridgeburner' characters in Eriksons 'Malazan' series remain largely unchanged throughout the series, something true of many or most of the other characters.  This despite engaging in innumerable philosophical debates.

I'd also argue that most of GRRM's characters in 'Game of Thrones' are not on the hero's journey.  Indeed, some appear to be heading down the opposite track.  

In my own writing...

...with 'Labyrinth', the MC does change - and that change is what the core of the tale is about - but its not a heroic transformation.  His top sidekick...matures somewhat.

In the Toki/Hock-Nar tales, Toki (fails) to grapple with his personality flaws for a long while.


----------



## SineNomine (Jul 24, 2013)

Oh god, don't listen to anyone who tells you there is a single way to construct a story.  Hero's journey has a relatively bad reputation among a lot of writers for this reason, the people that like it go all the way and make ludicrous claims about it being the One True Path.  They are, excuse me, full of crap.

There are LOTS of good ways to construct a story, and some people get by with no intentional structure anyway.  In the end, how you construct your story is likely not going to be the way people deconstruct it unless you spend time telling everyone the specific way you constructed it or you end up making it so by the rules that it is completely predictable and bland (Perfect example for hero's journey being Eragon).


----------



## Feo Takahari (Jul 24, 2013)

SineNomine said:


> Oh god, don't listen to anyone who tells you there is a single way to construct a story.  Hero's journey has a relatively bad reputation among a lot of writers for this reason, the people that like it go all the way and make ludicrous claims about it being the One True Path.  They are, excuse me, full of crap.
> 
> There are LOTS of good ways to construct a story, and some people get by with no intentional structure anyway.  In the end, how you construct your story is likely not going to be the way people deconstruct it unless you spend time telling everyone the specific way you constructed it or you end up making it so by the rules that it is completely predictable and bland (Perfect example for hero's journey being Eragon).



Does anyone remember the name of that critic who hated Star Wars because it doesn't follow the Hero's Journey properly? (I remember he said it was ruined because the princess is freed and the villain is defeated in the wrong order.)


----------



## Steerpike (Jul 24, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> Does anyone remember the name of that critic who hated Star Wars because it doesn't follow the Hero's Journey properly? (I remember he said it was ruined because the princess is freed and the villain is defeated in the wrong order.)



Guy must not have understood The Hero's Journey. It's one of the movies most cited as an example of it, and if I remember correctly, Lucas actually consciously used it.


----------



## Jabrosky (Jul 24, 2013)

What I find most frustrating about the standard Hero's Journey is its presumption that all stories need to center on character change, or more specifically how they have to be about a character's psychological maturation. It's like we're only allowed to write stories with some obvious moral message (or Aesop as the TV Tropes people would call it). Now I can appreciate a story with a moral, don't get me wrong, but I resent having to force in a moral fable into everything I write.


----------



## wordwalker (Jul 24, 2013)

I've always thought the point of the Journey was more to show common threads in most classic stories. No story fits it exactly, and it doesn't really insist on an exact set and order anyway, just that stories using some of these elements can and have tapped into a lot of what people want in a tale.

Can a journeying hero refuse to refuse the call, or rescue the princess early, or be the princess? Of course, and most of those may only put the story a little more different from the most average types than others.

It's an average of tales and appeals, to use as much as you want, no more.

Edit: as for the guy who disputed _Star Wars_, you know what it means when a purist calls something inadequate: it means his lips are moving.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 25, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Guy must not have understood The Hero's Journey. It's one of the movies most cited as an example of it, and if I remember correctly, Lucas actually consciously used it.


I believe Lucas actually studied the works of Joseph Campbell precisely so he got that Hero's Journey right in Star Wars.


----------



## Amanita (Jul 25, 2013)

I think this is quite interesting. When I'm going through the basci setup of my story, it's actually following the hero's journey in most important aspects. Especially the part with the call, accepting it reluctantly, facing trials and having trouble returning to the world left behind but finally succeeding in doing just that. I have to admit that those elements do appeal to me but many of the finer points don't seem to work, some of them purey based on the fact that I have a female protagonist. The entire "woman as a temptress"-part won't really work and I find it horribly sexist on top of that.
I think some aspects will be almost automatically part of a certain story set-up which does feature a hero of more epic proportions but not necessarily for any possible fantasy story.


----------



## Steerpike (Jul 25, 2013)

You don't have to have a woman as a temptress for the monomyth. I don't think you really need to be pushing a moral either, for that matter.


----------



## BWFoster78 (Jul 25, 2013)

It seems like a guy looked at a bunch of popular stories and concluded that they have a similar structure.  He basically said, "Wow, if you structure your story this way, it tends to speak to people."

That's fantastic information, and I'm glad he did that research.

If you choose not to use that information, that's your choice as an author.  Maybe you'll create something new that wows everyone.  Maybe you'll fall flat on your face and get criticized for not following the Hero's Journey.  Truthfully, you risk falling flat on your face even if you do follow it.

As for me, I tend to like having information even if I subsequently choose not to use it.


----------



## BWFoster78 (Jul 25, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> What I find most frustrating about the standard Hero's Journey is its presumption that all stories need to center on character change, or more specifically how they have to be about a character's psychological maturation. It's like we're only allowed to write stories with some obvious moral message (or Aesop as the TV Tropes people would call it). Now I can appreciate a story with a moral, don't get me wrong, but I resent having to force in a moral fable into everything I write.



On the whole, I find stories that feature character growth more engaging than stories that don't.  That's my personal preference.  You, apparently, don't feel the same way, and you don't have to.

I, again on the whole, dislike present tense.  I have made decisions not to buy books based solely on the discovery that they were written in present tense.  If someone told me that, in order to sell my book, I had to write it in present tense, I would refuse, reasoning that I probably wouldn't create a good product trying a method that I dislike.

I would also accept full responsibility for my decision.  I'd research the market to the best of my ability to determine why present tense sold so well in contrast to past tense.  I'd do whatever I could to make my book stand out despite the fact that it isn't written in present tense.

I'm not saying that you have to write Hero's Journey in order to sell.  I think the important thing is to figure out who your audience is and what they want.  How to that, however, I'm not exactly sure.


----------



## Steerpike (Jul 25, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> It seems like a guy looked at a bunch of popular stories and concluded that they have a similar structure.  He basically said, "Wow, if you structure your story this way, it tends to speak to people."



No, it came from work on comparative mythology, and identifying the themes and elements that seem to consistently popup in mythology, whether you're talking about Egyptians, Greeks, Indian, or New World cultures. Because the elements were so universal, people started applying them to fiction with the idea that these sorts of stories would resonate the most with people.


----------



## BWFoster78 (Jul 25, 2013)

> No, it came from work on comparative mythology



So, a myth isn't a story?


----------



## Steerpike (Jul 25, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> So, a myth isn't a story?



It's a story, but it's a certain type of story. Not all stories are myths. What Campbell and others did was to see that among widely varying cultures, even those that didn't have contact with one another, you saw this same general arc among many of their myths, particularly their most important ones. It's pretty interesting stuff. But the idea that all fiction writers should adopt it for all stories just doesn't make sense. 

Some people claim that every story is a monomyth, but I don't think that's true, and I don't think Campbell would have claimed it either. He was talking about myth in particular, and while all myths are stories not all stories are myths.


----------



## EccentricGentleman (Jul 25, 2013)

> On the whole, I find stories that feature character growth more engaging than stories that don't.



Just to be clear I fully intend to include character growth in my books, I just don't know how I'm going to manage it if I have to have my main character passed some emotional milestone in every single one, and my current impression is that I have to do that if I want to make the story of any quality.

I'm not one of those people who favours action and spectacle over storytelling, in fact I recently saw Pacific Rim and disliked how shallow, two-dimensional and generic the lead characters were.

The only way out of this situation I can see is two, in the first book, load my character with dozens of emotional problems, bad childhood, commitment issues, fear of heights, spiders etc... and in each book, put him through a journey that specifically targets and fixes one of these issues. Frankly I do not want to do it like that.

As for character growth, here's what I have so far...
My book is going to be the first in a series of adventure novels with a steampunk/fantasy setting. My lead character, Balthazar, a sort of Victorian Indiana Jones, grew up loving adventure stories about treasure hunters. In the first book he gets an opportunity to leave his childhood dream which he immediately seizes upon, he forms a team of adventurers and goes out in search of some lost ancient secret. But soon after ventures into a world of gunplay and booby traps, he realises how dangerous it is. He hits a low point where feels naive and stupid for chasing after a childhood dream and also a little hard because his dream has turned on him, this may or may not be the ordeal I don't know the journey well enough to tell.
Also, during his adventure meets a woman from a fantasy kingdom who has had a lot of combat experience. She tells him that he was not a fool for following this dream and he can have his dream but only if he accepts the fact that danger comes with adventuring and is willing to learn how to deal with it.

Also, this woman later becomes Balthazar's love interest. It starts out with a mutual fascination with each other's worlds, later he admires her strength and courage and begins to even feel attracted to her. But at the same time is extremely shy in confessing his feelings because he has never been infatuated with anyone before now. I'm saving this for maybe the second or third book because I hate the way the applicable where romance is often rushed in movies and as a result seems cheesy and nonsensical. (Pacific Rim again)


----------



## Feo Takahari (Jul 26, 2013)

Have you previously read and liked a lengthy series of books with a single protagonist? If so, how did the protagonist develop over the course of those books? (I think you're missing something here, but I'm having a hard time finding a relevant example, since I rarely read lengthy series.)

Edit: Actually, I might as well bring this up. I see two alternate tacks:

1): You want the protagonist to be tested. Does this mean he needs to be changed, or is it enough for him to consider and reject change?

2): If you want the protagonist to change, is it necessary that the change be for the better?


----------



## EccentricGentleman (Jul 26, 2013)

> 1): You want the protagonist to be tested. Does this mean he needs to be changed, or is it enough for him to consider and reject change?
> 
> 2): If you want the protagonist to change, is it necessary that the change be for the better?



I don't like the sound of either of those.


----------



## Jamber (Jul 26, 2013)

Joseph Campbell talked of the rise of the hero's journey mythology being tied to the notion of an individual warrior effecting change. This mythological strain replaced an earlier Vedic culture that saw human beings as tools of the gods. Another mythological strain (Greek) was 'the girl's tragedy', hardly seen in modern western culture.

As a woman I've never felt the hero's journey speaks to everyone everywhere. It's a template that dovetails most seamlessly with male adolescent rites of passage. (Hello, Hollywood.) It's the perfect democratic consumer myth: one person (every person) can be a hero and effect change. There are lots of reasons to like it (who wants to live in a world where individuals have no power?) but it's quite possible to think of other templates, and indeed no reason to feel you have to use any template. You could always try to be interesting instead.

Sorry, that's more theory than what you're talking about right now -- still, some loose thinking about what the myths mean can't hurt.

cheers
Jennie


----------



## Rullenzar (Jul 26, 2013)

Every story has a protaganist/Antagonist in some shape or form that have conflict. Therefor, it can be argued that your protaganist always goes through some type of heroes journey even if it's loosely applied. It's just a universal way of telling a story. Comedy, fantasy, romantic, sci-fi, documentary, biography, mystery, doesn't matter. The difference that sets apart unique and great stories is in the details and how it's portrayed.


----------



## The Dark One (Jul 27, 2013)

As a writer who prides himself on being original, I did write a story which lampoons the hero's journey (frequently references - and bags - TLOTR). It hasn't sold very well. Indeed, the only book of mine that has sold at all well is a classic hero's journey. 

The irony is bitter.


----------



## Steerpike (Jul 27, 2013)

One thing that Joseph Campbell seemed to lament about western culture was that our traditions tended toward more literal interpretations of things, and he was against literal interpretations (or at least that's my reading of him). I think some of the commentary on the Hero's Journey is a overly literal. I also people are conflating what they may have read on a writing web site about The Hero's Journey, or what looks to be some Hollywood take on it, with the underlying thing itself. I think that comes, in part, from attempts to force fiction into the Hero's Journey, or at least attempts to set the Hero's Journey up as some sort of standard for 'good' or 'effective' fiction. If you're going to do that, it is easier if you take a fairly literal approach to it. But I think it is a mistake, and again, at its core, the Hero's Journey is simply an attempt to find commonalities in stories of human myth, which where important parts of knowing about the world and even about socialization in oral cultures. The idea that there are universal strands that ties myth together is interesting, and if you go in for Jungian psychology then I suppose you have some interesting discussions about that as well. But to make of it more than it is, and to try to turn it into some kind of tool for all fiction is a mistake. And the latter probably accounts for some of the hipsterism you see on writing sites any time the topic comes up.


----------



## SineNomine (Jul 27, 2013)

The Dark One said:


> As a writer who prides himself on being original, I did write a story which lampoons the hero's journey (frequently references - and bags - TLOTR). It hasn't sold very well. Indeed, the only book of mine that has sold at all well is a classic hero's journey.
> 
> The irony is bitter.



I think Sanderson got it right with his observation of stories like that: They are hard to make work because they people that love the hero's journey will find it disappointing because it is subverted and those that don't like it will find it disappointing because...well, it LOOKS like a hero's journey.  The audience ends up kinda small.


----------



## Chessie (Jul 27, 2013)

That makes a lot of sense.


----------



## EccentricGentleman (Jul 27, 2013)

I'm feeling a little confused now, I've been told that every story uses the hero's journey and now you're telling me that not every story is a hero's journey. 

When I was first told about it by my writing teacher I was actually upset and angry. Angry because I felt like he was telling me how to write my story is and upset because humanity seemed trapped by it, doomed to repeat the same old story over and over.
My teacher assured me that it was a flexible paradigm, with some elements repeated, rearranged or removed altogether.
Now I'm feeling confused because he told me that it is a universal structure of every story and you're telling me it's not, so now I don't know what it is.

Can you tell me exactly what the hero's journey is? Is it a template used for all stories or just certain kinds of stories? Are there other templates that you could name?

Also I'm feeling all, on one hand I want to be original and break away from the traditional hero's journey, on the other I am terrified that if I do it won't sell.


----------



## The Dark One (Jul 27, 2013)

SineNomine said:


> I think Sanderson got it right with his observation of stories like that: They are hard to make work because they people that love the hero's journey will find it disappointing because it is subverted and those that don't like it will find it disappointing because...well, it LOOKS like a hero's journey.  The audience ends up kinda small.



Indeed, one of the slightly disappointed online reviews said exactly that. She was expecting  a particular type of story and she didn't get it. Mind you, as it turned out, it was a pretty good antihero's journey. It has had a few good reviews but it _is_ a challenge.


----------



## Penpilot (Jul 27, 2013)

EccentricGentleman said:


> I'm feeling a little confused now, I've been told that every story uses the hero's journey and now you're telling me that not every story is a hero's journey.



Not every story is a hero's journey. You can try an fit everything in that mould, but IMHO, a lot of times its stuffing a square peg in a round hole. You can do it but it can be messy and it takes a lot of twisting.

There are lots of different ways to classify story types. Some say there is only one story, others thirty six, and it goes on. Link to descriptions of different plots. Frequently Asked Reference Questions I read a screen writing book where the guy says there are ten basic stories. They're all right and they're all wrong. Part of writing theory is about l organizing your thoughts, knowing what basic elements go into a story and knowing that if you're missing an element that the story may not be complete. But which theory you follow is up to you. There are commonalities between different theories as well as differences. Find what works for you.

A couple of books I recommend you check out are "20 Master Plots" and "Save the Cat". These books describe how they classify different plots. The first book obviously shows you 20 plots and the second shows you 10.



> Can you tell me exactly what the hero's journey is? Is it a template used for all stories or just certain kinds of stories? Are there other templates that you could name?



Here's the wikipedia entry for what a Hero's Journey is. Monomyth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here are a few movies that follow the Hero's Journey.

Star Wars
Lord of the Rings trilogy.
Eragon
The Matrix
Tron Legacy
Wizard of Oz
The Goonies
Star Trek - the new movie series
Avatar



> Also I'm feeling all, on one hand I want to be original and break away from the traditional hero's journey, on the other I am terrified that if I do it won't sell.



Don't fret about originality. Originality isn't necessarily about the basic plot, but about your approach to telling that basic plot. For example here are three vastly different movies that share a similar plot and elements, Friday the 13th, Alien, Jaws. They each have a monster, they each take place in isolation or perceived isolation, they all contain elements of greed, and it goes on.

Also think about the classic Romeo and Juliet. How many times has that type of story been told? Westside Story, Lion King 2, Romeo Must Die.


----------



## EccentricGentleman (Jul 29, 2013)

To get back to my original point, why is the Hero's journey so effective?
I know it works but why does it work?

I think that someone will do something better if they understand why they're doing it.


----------



## Steerpike (Jul 29, 2013)

EccentricGentleman said:


> To get back to my original point, why is the Hero's journey so effective?
> I know it works but why does it work?
> 
> I think that someone will do something better if they understand why they're doing it.



The theory from the comparative mythology side is that there is a reason these same themes show up over and over again in wide-ranging cultures, and that's that they resonate with us as humans on some deeper level. Cultures were seeking ways of knowing about life and about their place in it, and such questions can be abstract and hard to address in a straightforward manner. Myths developed in part to provide answers in a more metaphorical sense. Although the details of these myths differed from place to place, the basic elements that were symbolized by the specific elements stayed the same, and so they were expressions of some universal truth about the universe and our place in it that these cultures were attempting to express through myth because they weren't subject to direct expression.

At any rate, that's my understanding, so I hope I didn't botch it.

If you believe that explanation for why these types of myths developed across various cultures, then it could be a good explanation as to why hero's journey stories are so effective. These various cultures didn't arrive at these stories randomly, but rather the stories took form as the cultures strove to understand on a non-literal level something about the universe, and about being human. We're still the same modern humans as those ancestors of ours, and it would stand to reason that whatever subconscious understanding led them to create myths that follow these motifs would be at work in us and cause stories that follow the pattern to resonate with us on a deeper level we might not fully understand.

It's a theory, anyway


----------



## Feo Takahari (Jul 29, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> The theory from the comparative mythology side is that there is a reason these same themes show up over and over again in wide-ranging cultures, and that's that they resonate with us as humans on some deeper level. Cultures were seeking ways of knowing about life and about their place in it, and such questions can be abstract and hard to address in a straightforward manner. Myths developed in part to provide answers in a more metaphorical sense. Although the details of these myths differed from place to place, the basic elements that were symbolized by the specific elements stayed the same, and so they were expressions of some universal truth about the universe and our place in it that these cultures were attempting to express through myth because they weren't subject to direct expression.
> 
> At any rate, that's my understanding, so I hope I didn't botch it.
> 
> ...



It's important to catch a particular aspect of this: this idea doesn't necessarily imply that the Hero's Journey is or contains truth. What it implies is that the Hero's Journey is or contains _something people really want to believe_*. I've written a couple different stories about how the mindset implied by the Hero's Journey can be used to make people want to serve your purposes (e.g. creating the concept of a military hero to encourage people to enlist and die for your cause.)

* You see a similar principle with non-horrific urban legends--for instance, the urban legend that such-and-such a political party has a low average IQ keeps appearing because some people really want to believe that anyone who disagrees with them is stupid.


----------



## Steerpike (Jul 29, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> It's important to catch a particular aspect of this: this idea doesn't necessarily imply that the Hero's Journey is or contains truth. What it implies is that the Hero's Journey is or contains _something people really want to believe_*.



I tend to think that's probably not the case. When you look at the wide variety of cultures whose myths show this structure, and the variety in size, class, social structure, agrarian v. non-agrarian, and so on, it makes more sense to me that they're reflecting something deeper than just things people want to believe. Seems to me to be a simpler explanation, just like the simple explanation for the ubiquity of deluge myths is that some event took place in the past that led to them.

Besides, if you look at a lot of the Hero's Journey myths, what aspects of them are you viewing as things people want to believe? That sounds like something that might be more pertinent to the Hollywoodization of the Hero's Journey, which is usually what gets bandied around web sites, but which as I pointed out above is a misunderstanding of the whole thing from the outset.


----------



## Jabrosky (Jul 29, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> On the whole, I find stories that feature character growth more engaging than stories that don't.  That's my personal preference.  You, apparently, don't feel the same way, and you don't have to.


I respect your opinion and am thankful that you respect mine, but frankly the whole fun of writing for me is _not _psychological character development. Writing for me is like drawing or painting in that I'm transcribing my visual imagination, not exploring the complexities of the human condition or whatever. I love world-building, describing how characters look, and animating them so that they do cool stuff, but not so much the psychological or emotional sides of character creation*. I have a hard enough time understanding how real living people tick as it is. Ergo I resent having to turn every piece of prose I write into an Aesop's fable.

* *EDIT:* Actually this may not be the most accurate way of putting it. I'm all for giving characters emotions and backstories that get them to do what they do. I am still resentful about the growth or development part though.


----------



## A. E. Lowan (Jul 30, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> I respect your opinion and am thankful that you respect mine, but frankly the whole fun of writing for me is _not _psychological character development. Writing for me is like drawing or painting in that I'm transcribing my visual imagination, not exploring the complexities of the human condition or whatever. I love world-building, describing how characters look, and animating them so that they do cool stuff, but not so much the psychological or emotional sides of character creation*. I have a hard enough time understanding how real living people tick as it is. Ergo I resent having to turn every piece of prose I write into an Aesop's fable.
> 
> * *EDIT:* Actually this may not be the most accurate way of putting it. I'm all for giving characters emotions and backstories that get them to do what they do. I am still resentful about the growth or development part though.



Actually, it's interesting that if you put 10 writers in a room, they will have 10 different reasons why they write.  We, for example, fall very firmly in the growth and development camp.  It's like having kids.  Demented, dysfunctional, over-powered kids who occasionally plot to take over the world... but still kids.  We create them and then turn the loose and watch them go.  For us plot is cool and the world is neat, but the complexities of people are fascinating!

Now, ask if we feel a need to attach a moral to our stories.

But, back to the OP...

The Hero's Journey is a great plot, and may in fact be the oldest, but it's just *one* of so many potential plots to choose from.  We don't use it consciously - in fact, we don't choose any plots consciously.  We just tell the stories that our characters need us to tell.  Don't fuss too much over it, and whatever you do don't try to over think it.  Study the plots, study those who have gone before, study your craft, and then just write your story.


----------



## BWFoster78 (Jul 30, 2013)

> I love world-building, describing how characters look, and animating them so that they do cool stuff, but not so much the psychological or emotional sides of character creation*. I have a hard enough time understanding how real living people tick as it is. Ergo I resent having to turn every piece of prose I write into an Aesop's fable.



I'm trying to figure out the cause of your resentment.

There are tons of stories out there that don't feature characters that grow, so why do you feel the need to feature it in your stories if you don't like it?  Is it because you feel it's expected by the audience of your genre?

If, to use my previous example, my audience really liked present tense, I'd have to either learn to like writing it or understand that I'm limiting my market.  I would be hard for me, however, to resent my audience because their tastes don't align with mine.


----------



## Jabrosky (Jul 30, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I'm trying to figure out the cause of your resentment.
> 
> There are tons of stories out there that don't feature characters that grow, so why do you feel the need to feature it in your stories if you don't like it?  Is it because you feel it's expected by the audience of your genre?


Pretty much, I have the impression that it's expected for all fiction.


----------



## BWFoster78 (Jul 30, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> Pretty much, I have the impression that it's expected for all fiction.



That would probably be an excellent topic for a new thread:

Is character growth expected for all fiction?

Again, I prefer it and tend to view stories that don't include it as unsatisfying.  I'd also say that it is expected in genres like epic fantasy.  If you're doing more action/adventure style fantasy, I think you can probably still find an audience.  Also, I don't think you always have to meet expectations, though you should acknowledge them so you can deliberately subvert them.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 30, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> I love world-building, describing how characters look, and animating them so that they do cool stuff, but not so much the psychological or emotional sides of character creation*. I have a hard enough time understanding how real living people tick as it is....
> * EDIT: Actually this may not be the most accurate way of putting it. I'm all for giving characters emotions and backstories that get them to do what they do. I am still resentful about the growth or development part though.


Can you clarify this? I'm unsure if you simply don't like writing about the emotional impact, and the change that can occur as a result -OR- Do you have difficulty writing in that fashion? Perhaps both?


----------



## Jabrosky (Jul 30, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> Can you clarify this? I'm unsure if you simply don't like writing about the emotional impact, and the change that can occur as a result -OR- Do you have difficulty writing in that fashion? Perhaps it's both?


Actually it is probably the latter.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 30, 2013)

In my view, your main character doesn't have to grow or change or develop at all...if that's what you want. There's plenty of literary successes that back that up. However, there has to be change, to some degree, on supporting characters....at least a few. Otherwise, what's the story? Just a telling of events? That seems rather bland to me. 

The effects that events have on characters IS the story...again, not every character necessarily, but some. If there's no emotional impact to at least one character, why would anyone care about the underlying plots? There'd be no emotional toll or connection for the reader which, in my opinion, is the source of caring...or why readers become interested and invested in characters and story. Emotional attachment causes a reader to care about what happens to a character. It keeps them reading.



Jabrosky said:


> Actually it is probably the latter.


Where do you think the difficulty lies? Have you worked at writing emotion? 

It's not easy to do well, and certainly takes work to develop the ability.


----------



## Jabrosky (Jul 30, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> In my view, your main character doesn't have to grow or change or develop at all...if that's what you want. There's plenty of literary successes that back that up. However, there has to be change, to some degree, on supporting characters....at least a few. Otherwise, what's the story? Just a telling of events? That seems rather bland to me.
> 
> The effects that events have on characters IS the story...again, not every character necessarily, but some. If there's no emotional impact to at least one character, why would anyone care about the underlying plots? There'd be no emotional toll or connection for the reader which, in my opinion, is the source of caring...or why readers become interested and invested in characters and story. Emotional attachment causes a reader to care about what happens to a character. It keeps them reading.


That's a good point you bring up there. You are probably right that character change does increase everyone's emotional investment in a story.



> Where do you think the difficulty lies? Have you worked at writing emotion?
> 
> It's not easy to do well, and certainly takes work to develop the ability.


I'm not really sure where the difficulty does lie to be honest.


----------



## Scribble (Jul 30, 2013)

Jabrosky said:


> I'm not really sure where the difficulty does lie to be honest.



I'm not saying this is the case for you, but this is how it was for me. 

When I was a young man, I was very self-absorbed. I tried writing stories, and the world was brilliant (so I thought), and the plot was twisty and subtle (so I thought) but the characters were flat. They didn't have real flaws, real motivations, real fears. I had great ideas, but I was not in touch with my own emotions. I distanced myself from them, I was unaware of them, so I couldn't write them.

It wasn't until years later, after having lived through troubles, raising children, failing, succeeding, getting into ruts, getting out of ruts, hating myself, hating my life, fixing what I hated, fixing my life, feeling great, feeling bad, arguing, being in love, longing for love, deep talking with my girlfriend or wife until 4 AM until we reached one of those relationship-defining moments... all of that I was missing. 

I had read widely, but I missed a good deal of the emotional content. I never cried when reading a book. Once I had learned to open myself up, I became more permeable to emotional experience. When I read, I was more vulnerable to the emotional machinations of the author, I found myself feeling more than I was able to as a more arrogant, more callous young man.

I had changed, many times, through many iterations over time. I understood my own transformations, and so I better understood the transformations of others.

It took many years, plus a few more just to be able to have the self-awareness to write these words. Now, with all that in my pocket, now I can envision and (working on it) write characters who have more than two dimensions.

One of the best examples of a character transformation story that I know of is Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse. It's kind of an anthem book for my life. Siddhartha follows the hero's journey nearly perfectly, but the struggle is all internal, it is all against himself. That brings the most important points of the hero's journey to light in a very explicit way, in my opinion.

Solution: live, read, repeat.

Audiobook (.mp3): ThoughtAudio.com - Siddhartha by Herman Hesse, unabridged free audio book download

Gutenberg.org (text, pdf, etc...) Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse - Free Ebook


----------



## BWFoster78 (Jul 31, 2013)

Jabrosky,

You inspired my blog post today.  You can check it out at: Why Character Change is Important | Brian W. Foster

Let me know what you think.

Brian


----------



## Addison (Jul 31, 2013)

There is no such thing as a flaw-less person. The hero may have one flaw (cowardice, too short, fear of heights etc) which could prove an issue or severe obstacle if they're to succeed. I've also found through experience, my own and observing others, that if and when one flaw is overcome another one either becomes worse or their success births another flaw. If your hero didn't have a lot of self esteem then, in the next, he could be oober confident and cocky, maybe even proud to an extent he inadvertently pushes his friends away. 

The hero's journey is also a good way for a reader to bond with the character. Either the adventure they want to go on and/or the character's flaw is one the reader can relate to. It's not so much as necessary in the epic sense (climb a mountain, solve a riddle while hanging above a zombie-infested pit to slay the dragon) the hero's arc can be external or internal, even interpersonal, but the flaw is key. It's the flaw the hero fights through the entire arc, push and shove, fight or give in, at the end they beat the flaw out of existence to accomplish their goal.


----------



## brokethepoint (Jul 31, 2013)

SHORT IS NOT A FLAW :tongue:


----------



## A. E. Lowan (Jul 31, 2013)

brokethepoint said:


> SHORT IS NOT A FLAW :tongue:



*pats head*  Of course not, dear.  Just ask Miles Vorkosigan.


----------



## Jabrosky (Jul 31, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Jabrosky,
> 
> You inspired my blog post today.  You can check it out at: Why Character Change is Important | Brian W. Foster
> 
> ...


I understand your point. Having a character change in response to certain events can communicate a clear theme that resonates with readers and gives the story a degree of importance in their eyes.

Just to clarify, I'm not really against character change. I've written several stories where characters changed or learned some kind of moral lesson at the end. I guess what I'm really asking for is some flexibility in storytelling conventions.


----------



## Steerpike (Jul 31, 2013)

There are some very successful series with characters who don't change much, if at all, and have few if any flaws to speak of. Anyone read Lee Child's Jack Reacher books? Huge fan base.


----------



## Addison (Jul 31, 2013)

brokethepoint said:


> SHORT IS NOT A FLAW :tongue:



I was just listing random things I've heard people complain about. It's nothing against short people, heck there's been plenty of times I wished I was short.


----------



## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 31, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> There are some very successful series with characters who don't change much, if at all, and have few if any flaws to speak of. Anyone read Lee Child's Jack Reacher books? Huge fan base.



I haven't read these books so I have to ask:

Do supporting characters around Reacher change?


----------



## Steerpike (Jul 31, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I haven't read these books so I have to ask:
> 
> Do supporting characters around Reacher change?



Not so much, because they're rarely the same from book to book. There may be changes in that some of them die, or get hurt, or get saved, or in some cases their attitudes about Reacher may change. He generally ends up helping people, so their circumstances change within the book itself, and then he disappears at the end to resurface in a new place with a new supporting cast in the next book. There are a few recurrent characters that may pop up for a time in different books.

In addition to not changing, the guy just can't lose. In fact, he can't even come close to losing. He's too smart, too strong, and too well-trained for every challenge that comes along. There are a few exceptions, but that's usually how it goes. Eight people approach him wanting to put him in the hospital, and Reacher thinks about how this is really bad and he may not make it out of this one, and then proceeds to tear them all limb from limb 

At any rate - shouldn't work, according to some. But the books do work and they're a lot of fun. Reacher is very active. He drives the plot. He solves problems. He's almost an unstoppable force in the narrative of the story. But he's not flawed in any real sense and doesn't undergo significant character changes. When I first starting reading the books, I didn't think I'd like them for these very reasons, but they ended up being a lot of fun, and Child is good at making you want to read one more chapter to see what's going to happen.


----------



## BWFoster78 (Jul 31, 2013)

> I understand your point. Having a character change in response to certain events can communicate a clear theme that resonates with readers and gives the story a degree of importance in their eyes.



I'm not sure that's exactly what I meant.

Because you see the story through the eyes of a character, showing that the character changed as a result of the events tends to elevate the importance of the events.  If he instead stays the same, it implies that the events weren't all that important.

I'm not sure if you were saying the same thing.


----------



## wordwalker (Aug 1, 2013)

I see character change is an option, that almost always strengthens the story but not everyone uses. Part of drama is that you'd expect there to be change as a result (agreed, BWFoster, its lack makes the events look unimportant). However...

There are a lot of book series where the character barely changes at all, like Reacher, or a lot of mysteries. Fans love those for being able to go back to the same guy. There are snobs that'll say those are episodic franchises that aren't Real-- but there are also snobs who say characters changing is picking drama over literature, that real people often resist change and it's more authentic to have them go through hell and come out trying to be the same person they were before. (A bit overstated, but...)

Character change is a tool. It's more likely that the character should change (especially during epic-scale changes in the plot), and it certainly emphasizes everything else, but leaving it out makes it easier to focus on other things and to reuse the character. Still, change is the usual choice, and a tale without it has to be especially good to not look like it just failed to pull off its changes.


----------



## Graylorne (Aug 1, 2013)

I would say character change is rather essential if you're writing Coming of Age-stories. That is all about growth and balance and better understanding, after all.


----------



## BWFoster78 (Aug 1, 2013)

> There are a lot of book series where the character barely changes at all, like Reacher, or a lot of mysteries. Fans love those for being able to go back to the same guy.



It really all depends on your audience.  If you want to write fantasy adventure/thriller driven by action and plot, I think you can find a market for that.

It seems to me, though, that the approach would be more problematic for epic fantasy given reader expectations.


----------



## Addison (Aug 1, 2013)

I forget where I read the article but I remember it was in an issue of Writer's Digest. There are a few types of character arcs. One is where the character and their goals in life don't change. Second is where the character doesn't change but their goals/priorities do. Third is where the goal remains the same but the character changes. Fourth and final is where both character and goal change. All of these can be a hero's journey.


----------

