# Most hated fantasy cliches: What do you think?



## Xitra_Blud

So I found this article in which people are discussing the clichÃ©s they hate to see in fantasy. I was curious about you guys' opinion on this.

Everyone's Most Hated Fantasy Fiction Fantasy ClichÃ©s


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## Mythopoet

Well, it almost goes without saying that I take STRONG exception to the "Everyone" in the title. There is not one single cliche that everyone agrees on. Nor is there one that every reader or even ever fantasy reader agrees on. Many of the things listed there are things that many readers specifically like and look for in their reading material. 

Many of the comments lead me to think that the commenter just isn't reading the right books. Some of these people should be specifically seeking books that are trying to achieve "realism" in a fantasy setting and just because a book is not trying to be "realistic" does not make it bad. Some of these people should probably be reading sci fi instead of fantasy.  

But above all I take strong exception that just because some readers don't like something, that makes it a cliche that should be avoided. If you hate dragons, just don't read books with dragons, problem solved. But lots of people love dragons, so dragons are not something an author should purposely avoid (unless the author hates dragons too). The vast majority of things in this post are perfectly good fantasy elements that many readers love.


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## Svrtnsse

First of all, I should state that I'm really opposed to putting in that kind of effort into hating things. It just feels like a waste of time and energy in order to promote negativity. The danger of a list like this is that it'd urge insecure and beginning writers to try and stay away from everything listed in it, so that they wouldn't be cliche.

I checked up on the article and the list of things people hate include a lot of things. I'm sure you could write a good fantasy novel without including any of the cliches listed, but I feel like you'd sort of have to go out of your way to do it.

A thought I had when viewing the list is that it may not necessarily be the actual cliches that people object to, but the execution of the story in which these cliches appear. I believe that if the story is told well enough it doesn't much matter if it's filled with cliches.


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## 2WayParadox

Let's see.

antropomorphism, haven't read all that much of that. The last unicorn, but the unicorn gets turned into a human for part of the story. I read a book where intelligent dragons served as air fighters in the napoleon wars. Apart from that, I can't think of any, so to me it's not that much of a clichÃ©.

appearance, meh, in the end it doesn't matter all that much how the hero looks. It is true that black is the go to color for villains.

Stereotyping is bad in any writing

childbirth scenes... can't recall ever reading one.

The magic baby on the other is annoying, it just stretches the established credibility so much if it's not the central piece to the puzzel.

Chosen one. I agree with this one. Prophecy annoys me. I'm also tired of the traditional coming of age story. Perhaps wheel of time and the laws of magic ruined me for those stories that aren't exceptionally good.

Civilization, derivative. I don't see an issue with that. Every society written will be based on something, except maybe in scifi, but even then the society might be based on insects or something.

The pre-industrial times, I'll give you that one. Most of what I've read was set in similar times. Then again, I write in those times too and I don't mind it. However, I do want to base some of my magic on things we have in our world, to mirror them in function, if not in material.

Unrealistic societies. Just sounds like bad worlbuilding.

Coming of age, as I said above.

Flowery descriptions, that's not really a clichÃ© I think. Purple prose can be found in any genre. I don't like it, that doesn't make it a clichÃ©.

Dreams, it's not really clear to me what he means by this one. It's too vague.

Multi-part series. I don't mind this, but I do agree that there has to be a limit somewhere to keep the story from stagnating. I think maybe six books is a good number? I don't know. Also, writing parts to be at least somewhat stand-alone can't hurt.

well, the list goes on and I've run out of willingness, so I'll stop here.


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## Nimue

Pretty fun to read, and I feel like it could be a good guideline in some ways (like, if you're hitting every single thing on the list you may have to go into your bedroom and sit in the dark rethinking your life for a while).  But yeah, I don't really believe in "Never Do This" lists.  Listicles are entertainment, not writing advice scripture!


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## Philip Overby

I personally hate (if I'm going to use this word) how cliches are this specter that haunts fantasy fiction. This cloak of fear that envelops writers. Sure, readers hate all sorts of things. They hate them because of their execution. I guarantee that almost everyone has read a "Chosen One" story that they love if they've read fantasy fiction for a good while. They've probably also read some they hate. It's weird. I've never come across a book I've hated because of cliches. I've come across books that couldn't hold my interest, but I've never disliked something so much in a book I said, "Nope, I'm not reading this anymore." I guess there are a lot of people that do that.

I'm curious about all these books that exist that annoy people so much. I wish people could give examples. I guess they're out there, but I've been lucky to avoid them and/or I'm not as sensitive to these kind of issues. 

To me a cliche can be a good idea executed so many times poorly that people start to hate it. However, cliches can also be a valuable tool for writers if they handle them delicately. To me cliches can be like salt and pepper. If you put a little here and there, no one will notice. But if you sprinkle it all over your book, it's going to ruin it.


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## Reilith

Well, in my opinion cliches don't always have to be a bad thing. First of all, as Phillip said, we have all loved some books that have certain things that are viewed as cliches. Second, _you can't avoid cliches_. Cliche is a topic that has been overused, not something initially bad. The problem nowadays is that people see the word 'cliche' and in their mind instantly springs 'bad' as an associative word. If you are reading a book that has cliches in it and you don't like it, it's not that the cliches are bad, it is the writing. It is the writers job to flesh out a likable world and characters and themes, and that is the core of it all. I think people focus on these cliches too much, instead of enjoying what they are reading. It is fantasy, you can't write fantasy completely void of them! They are bound to pop up eventually, so why not make them interesting and make the reader think about them, instead of counting them? I think, from the point of a young writer, green to serious writing, these type of articles and talks just make beginners lose their courage and take up too much thinking time which could be invested into writing. I know that when I started my WIP I first looked up a list of biggest cliches and got really discouraged for some time - when it sums up it seems everything's been used up and there is no way to avoid them. So it got me thinking, why not twist and turn them, and make them into something different instead? That's one way to deal with cliches. Another is to simply write and write and when you get to your editing simply try to embellish them or remove some which you think are unnecessary. Cliches are what made fantasy the way it is, and it is not a bad thing. They are cliches for a reason - they were fun and they worked, which made a bunch of people write them over and over again from new perspectives. Cliche is not about quality, it is about quantity of themes constantly used in fiction, if you know what I mean.

Of course, if I simply don't like something, were it a cliche or not, I will avoid it, in writing and reading in general.


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## Tom

I found this article a few years ago, and I really enjoyed it. I think of lists of cliches as guidelines, rather than rules. You can choose to avoid the cliches altogether, or you can play with them and twist them around into something original.


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## Panda

I'm a fan of tvtrope's motto "tropes are not bad." Of course you want to avoid cliches, but not all tropes are cliches (dragons? seriously?).

There are a few things on that list that I really disagree with:



> Civilization, Derivative
> 
> "My biggest objection is fantasy societies which have had no contact with Earth but closely resemble the Roman Empire, the Catholic Church, feudal Japan, or some other Earthly culture. (Of course, this excludes alternate-worlds stories.)"
> 
> "Non-human species or humans with no contact at all with Earth and who yet have Modern Western values and pseudo-medieval societies."



I want to read a story, not an essay about what the author thinks a world with no contact with our world would be like. I'm not saying you should never try to be original, but given the choice between a well-written and interesting character who happens to live in a world that resembles feudal Japan and a one-dimensional character who's just an excuse to write about a completely original world, I'd rather read about the pseudo-Japanese guy.

And as for medieval societies with modern values: Fantasy is escapism. If I want to read about an exciting adventure with swords and sorcery, I don't want to be told that people like me (a gay woman with disabilities) either don't exist or are marginalized, unless it's important to the plot. (e.g. the protagonist rebels against the bigots. And that runs the risk of going into cliche territory.) If I wanted to read accurate historical fiction, I wouldn't be reading fantasy stories.



> Almost any bildungsroman in fantasy.



As long as it isn't done in a cliche way, I love this kind of story. Life is all about growing as a person and becoming better than what you currently are, isn't it?


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## Svrtnsse




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## Penpilot

A story that successfully avoided every single one of those things on the list I think probably wouldn't be much of a story. There's a reason that certain things resonate. It's why the Hero's Journey is such a successful story type. 

It contains the Chosen One which I think taps into the part of all of us that desires to be special.

It contains the mentor because well everyone in life has mentors. A lot of times it's the parent dishing out advice to guide you along life's journey. 

When I first started writing I tried to write a story that avoided any and everything that I though had been done before. The story never got beyond the first couple of chapters because I would always run into something that has been done before.

This article sees cliches as bad. I see them as opportunities and tools.


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## Jabrosky

Some of those complaints I agree with. Like these for example:


> "I hate blondness / blue-eyed-ness / attractiveness as a symbol of virtue."
> 
> "Blondes good, brunettes and dark-haired women bad."
> 
> "I dislike the white / light = good and black / dark = bad. Even Saruman gets stripped of "white" status after showing his evil. Enough, already."


I always interpreted the idea of light = good and dark = bad as originally rooted in our heritage as diurnal primates, since early humans could never see through the darkness of night, or the shadows under the treetops, where the leopards might be lurking. But once the scale changes from shades of gray to shades of brown (e.g. _The Lion King_ and its direct-to-video sequel, where the less sympathetic lions all have darker fur), I can see why discomfort might set in nowadays. 

And I also remember how, in those old "caveman" movies, the brunette cave-women were more likely to be villainous than the blondes. For some strange reason, it's still widely acceptable to poke fun at different hair colors within Northern European populations, with brunettes being smarter and more evil, blondes being dumb and bubbly but more beautiful, and redheads being short-tempered. Isn't that, you know, almost a little racist, or at least conflating personality or culture with certain physical traits?

Though for my part, I tend to use differences in hair color as marking ethnic distinctions between white peoples in my own fantasy world-building. I'll have green-eyed redheads with Celtic trappings, blue-eyed blonds who are more Norse or Anglo-Saxon, and maybe Slavic or Scythian brunettes. My analogues to Mediterranean Europeans, like the Spaniards and Greco-Romans, usually have black hair, tan skin, and are considered racially "tawny" like the Middle Eastern Semitics rather than proper whites. If anything, they'll derisively liken white people's hair colors to blood, urine, or maybe feces.


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## Reilith

Jabrosky said:


> And I also remember how, in those old "caveman" movies, the brunette cave-women were more likely to be villainous than the blondes. For some strange reason, it's still widely acceptable to poke fun at different hair colors within Northern European populations, with brunettes being smarter and more evil, blondes being dumb and bubbly but more beautiful, and redheads being short-tempered. Isn't that, you know, almost a little racist, or at least conflating personality or culture with certain physical traits?
> 
> Though for my part, I tend to use differences in hair color as marking ethnic distinctions between white peoples in my own fantasy world-building. I'll have green-eyed redheads with Celtic trappings, blue-eyed blonds who are more Norse or Anglo-Saxon, and maybe Slavic or Scythian brunettes. My analogues to Mediterranean Europeans, like the Spaniards and Greco-Romans, usually have black hair, tan skin, and are considered racially "tawny" like the Middle Eastern Semitics rather than proper whites. If anything, they'll derisively liken white people's hair colors to blood, urine, or maybe feces.



I know those are somewhat general tropes, but I just felt like sharing a though. For me I prefer somehow to have blondes as the villains (nothing wrong about blondes irl though) and I remember the instance of Darken Rahl from Sword of Truth who is the main villain in the first book - he is tall, beautiful, handsome, blonde with blue eyes and always dressed in white. I felt like it was a great way to show that not always white must be the colour of 'good', and it was a nice respite from the usual light/good, dark/bad sort of cliche.


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## SD Stevens

People who make such post fall in to another cliche! 

I don't get what makes them hate, by disgn we have to stick to certain chishes for a book to be placed in the right catagory? Or each book ever written and to be written would be in their own individual genre! 

Every thing that makes fantasy great these people will stick the chishe tag on! If they don't like it they can go read historical romance!


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## SD Stevens

They will teach me to type with out glasses CHICHE


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## Panda

I mentioned it in my other post but I figured I should link it: Tropes are not bad.

And since I'm posting links to tvtropes, Reilith might like this one: Blond Guys are Evil. It even mentions Darken Rahl in the "literature" section.


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## Reilith

Panda said:


> I mentioned it in my other post but I figured I should link it: Tropes are not bad.
> 
> And since I'm posting links to tvtropes, Reilith might like this one: Blond Guys are Evil. It even mentions Darken Rahl in the "literature" section.



Thank you, it is actually pretty cool, I love TV tropes.  And he is one of those villains who are actually done correctly and over-the top.


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## Panda

Yeah, it's been a long time since I read any of the Sword of Truth books, but I remember Darken Rahl was an interesting character.


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## Mythopoet

Agreed. The series went way downhill as soon as it lost him as a villain. He was very well done.


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## Reilith

For me it went south the moment he started making Richard OP and everyone else turned into idiots. I still went through it all, but I needed to take a break after reading The Naked Empire. That one and Pillars of Creation made my brain a mush. But the sixth book, Faith of the Fallen was my favourite. I never continued reading the Richard and Kahlan series as the writer obviously suffered a lobotomy (to be mild about it) with his writing.


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## Mythopoet

Reilith said:


> For me it went south the moment he started making Richard OP and everyone else turned into idiots. I still went through it all, but I needed to take a break after reading The Naked Empire. That one and Pillars of Creation made my brain a mush. But the sixth book, Faith of the Fallen was my favourite. I never continued reading the Richard and Kahlan series as the writer obviously suffered a lobotomy (to be mild about it) with his writing.



Wow, Faith of the Fallen was your favorite? I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that. For me that was the book that broke the camel's back. It was too preachy and the plot just really started getting ridiculous. It was the last book I read and I've never looked back.


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## Graylorne

I read both Sword of Truth and Wheel of Time when I was down with a hernia. Ten of each. I think it helped me to move about again, rather than being forced to finishing those series.


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## Panda

I don't remember when I stopped reading Sword of Truth; I think it was either the third or fourth book. I got too annoyed with how much of his work was obviously ripped off of other works. TV Tropes says the later books were strongly influenced by Ayn Rand, so I suppose it's just as well that I stopped when I did.


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## Mythopoet

Panda said:


> I don't remember when I stopped reading Sword of Truth; I think it was either the third or fourth book. I got too annoyed with how much of his work was obviously ripped off of other works. TV Tropes says the later books were strongly influenced by Ayn Rand, so I suppose it's just as well that I stopped when I did.



lol yeah

HEY PANDA, DID YOU KNOW THAT COMMUNISM IS BAD???? Terry Goodkind just wants to make sure you're 110% clear on that fact.


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## Reilith

He does get too preachy, but somehow that one book really resonated with me. Everything after that though... A bunch of religious and political banter in subtext, too much of everything etc. But I really wanted to finish them just to see how he ended it all. Even the end was half-assed. Throughout the books he keeps talking how evil people get no excuse and no remorse, and should be killed without any sort guilt and then he makes Richard do the stupidest thing in history to fix the problem. And pulling problem-solvers out of his posterior...


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## cupiscent

Maybe cliche is unavoidable and not necessarily bad, but I will note that the "grace" I say before starting a new book has been the same for the past twenty years: "Oh please give me something different and interesting." And what I mostly mean is "please don't contain any standard variations of the things on that list".

Don't get me wrong, I love fantasy. I love books that gave rise to and perpetuated the cliches. But I remember _Game of Thrones_ blasting through my same-old predictable fantasy funk like an icy breath of novelty, and if I could feel that surprised and energised every single time I read a book, I would be 100% fine with that. (After all, if I want the same-old chosen-one with a mentor and a magic sword, I can just go back and re-read David Eddings for the 64th time.)

Of course, yes, cliche is in the execution, not the content. I mean, I hate dragons, but I loved what _Seraphina_ did with them. (Similarly, vampires are boring, but the BBC television series _Ultraviolet_ was fantastic.) But I don't think it's bad at all to encourage writers to think about what they can bring to the genre that's unique to them. We all have amazing individual viewpoints. Let's share them.


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## Guy

There was one I was totally on board with:

"I'll tell you what, I always cringe when people put random apostrophes in proper names."
"If I pick up a fantasy book, and I can't pronounce the names in the blurb without getting a headache, it's back on the shelf for that book. Meh."

Names and words that don't conform to any known rules of phonetics annoy the daylights out of me. Most of the others kind of left me scratching my head. If you hate mythical creatures, fantasy seems like a peculiar genre to go for. Sort of like those guys who join the navy and can't swim.

I can't help suspecting that the people whining simplistic political structures in stories are the same ones griping about all the trade federation crap in the Star Wars prequels.

I got a laugh out of this one: "... has anyone ever written a fantasy about an anarchic society that wasn't about cave men?"
Uh... maybe because that's about as far as an anarchic society is likely to advance?

And just what does "bildungsroman" mean, anyway?


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## Ireth

A "bildungsroman", as far as I know, is a fancy word for a coming-of-age story. No idea where the word originated, though.


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## Svrtnsse

Ireth said:


> A "bildungsroman", as far as I know, is a fancy word for a coming-of-age story. No idea where the word originated, though.



It's most likely German. I have a hunch "bildung" is somehow related to eductaion (or possibly character-building).


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## ThinkerX

I had a long point by point response all typed out - but it got eaten because it was too long.  So...short version:

Some of the points I agree with.  Others are debatable.


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## Jabrosky

Guy said:


> If you hate mythical creatures, fantasy seems like a peculiar genre to go for.


In fairness, I wouldn't say fantasy _needs_ creatures from any established mythology. I myself am more fond of prehistoric beasts, or creatures inspired by such. The way I see it, any kind of fiction, and any kind of setting, could be sorted into the fantasy genre as long as it's somehow significantly different from the world we know. Ergo, a story about African warrior chicks fighting dinosaurs in the jungle would just as easily qualify as fantasy as the old dragons-and-elves stuff.

If anything, sometimes I wonder if the inherent flexibility of fantasy as a genre is why it's so often perceived as excessively saturated with cliches. People expect a lot more diversity within fantasy's broad parameters than they actually see.


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## Fyle

When the low-born nobody type turns out to be incredibly important or have a claim to the throne (or equvilent). It was great the first few times I heard it, but now... its chiche. Seems like a pattern that many of my all time favirotes have followed.

Matrix - Neo starts as just this programmer in his 1 room apartment.

LOTR - Aragorn / Strider is a mysterious ranger at first.

Star Wars - farm boy becomes a Jedi who faces off against the emperor and Vader.

Would I be wrong to say Katniss in the Hunger Games? Starts off as just a pledge to enter, and ends up the star of the show talking to important people on all levels. 

I am sure the list goes on...

Seems like it has been done over and over before.


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## Ireth

I think Katniss would be a unique case. There's no prophecy around her like Neo, and she's not the child of anyone super important, whether for good or evil, like Luke or Aragorn. Katniss is just an ordinary girl who did something extraordinary, volunteering as a Tribute in the Games, and that is what made people pay attention to her. She gets where she's going by her own merit, not because of law or magic or prophecy.

*Disclaimer: I haven't read the Hunger Games books and have only seen the first movie. My knowledge of the plot is probably woefully incomplete.


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## cupiscent

Guy said:


> If you hate mythical creatures, fantasy seems like a peculiar genre to go for.



I don't read for person vs beast, or even good vs evil. I read for person vs person and person vs system. Endless pages of monster-splatting has no real emotional meaning for me. But fantasy gives the biggest and best pvp or pvs storylines.


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## X Equestris

Svrtnsse said:


> It's most likely German. I have a hunch "bildung" is somehow related to eductaion (or possibly character-building).



Yeah, it translates as novel of education/formation/culture.  It's apparently a specific subset of a coming-of-age story.


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## Jabrosky

Fyle said:


> When the low-born nobody type turns out to be incredibly important or have a claim to the throne (or equvilent). It was great the first few times I heard it, but now... its chiche. Seems like a pattern that many of my all time favirotes have followed.
> 
> Matrix - Neo starts as just this programmer in his 1 room apartment.
> 
> LOTR - Aragorn / Strider is a mysterious ranger at first.
> 
> Star Wars - farm boy becomes a Jedi who faces off against the emperor and Vader.
> 
> Would I be wrong to say Katniss in the Hunger Games? Starts off as just a pledge to enter, and ends up the star of the show talking to important people on all levels.
> 
> I am sure the list goes on...
> 
> Seems like it has been done over and over before.


I blame most of those on the American Dream Syndrome. You could say it's the bastard child of our country's democratic pretensions and the longstanding problem of socioeconomic inequality we would prefer to sweep under the rug. We tell ourselves and our children that, as long as we take the most advantage we can out of our own talents, we all have a chance to become these billionaire celebrities with sexy significant others, nice comfy mansions, and publicity shoved into the faces of hapless grocery shoppers all over the nation. In a small number of cases, you don't even need to do much with your life other than irritate the rest of humanity and yet somehow make money off them.

If you see a lot of farmboys discovering they're descended from royalty and have special powers, it's probably due to this deeply ingrained American desire to climb to the top of the pyramid.


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## Mythopoet

Fyle said:


> When the low-born nobody type turns out to be incredibly important or have a claim to the throne (or equvilent). It was great the first few times I heard it, but now... its chiche. Seems like a pattern that many of my all time favirotes have followed.
> 
> Matrix - Neo starts as just this programmer in his 1 room apartment.
> 
> LOTR - Aragorn / Strider is a mysterious ranger at first.
> 
> Star Wars - farm boy becomes a Jedi who faces off against the emperor and Vader.



Thing is, there's a HUGE difference in the way each of those examples are played out. They aren't really the same trope. 

Neo is "The One" for no reason at all. It's just random chance. And his powers just appear when he needs them at the climax. 

Aragorn on the other hand only appears low-born, but it's quickly indicated in the narrative that he's more than he appears. He has, in fact, been high born the whole time and a very important personage, but just how important isn't revealed to the reader all at once. But you know by the end of Fellowship that his heritage makes him the only rightful king of Gondor. 

Luke is the classic hero's journey example and not really a "chosen one" at all. He has inherited ability, he can learn to become a Jedi because his father was, but he earns his hero status through his own actions before he ever learns to properly wield the force. 

And this is one reason I object to the whole "this trope has been done" idea. Because whenever examples are given, it's easy to demonstrate how very differently played out most of the examples are, and not really the same thing done over and over at all. Are there some people who write books that basically reuse old ideas without adding anything fresh? Sure. But that doesn't negate the value of the idea, just the value of those particular implementations of it. 



Jabrosky said:


> I blame most of those on the American Dream Syndrome. You could say it's the bastard child of our country's democratic pretensions and the longstanding problem of socioeconomic inequality we would prefer to sweep under the rug. We tell ourselves and our children that, as long as we take the most advantage we can out of our own talents, we all have a chance to become these billionaire celebrities with sexy significant others, nice comfy mansions, and publicity shoved into the faces of hapless grocery shoppers all over the nation. In a small number of cases, you don't even need to do much with your life other than irritate the rest of humanity and yet somehow make money off them.
> 
> If you see a lot of farmboys discovering they're descended from royalty and have special powers, it's probably due to this deeply ingrained American desire to climb to the top of the pyramid.



This trope is as old at least as ancient Greek myth so no, it's not because of the American Dream. Though it could be argued that what America has done is take the "Chosen One" and remove the "chosen". We seem to prefer our heroes to just _be_ ridiculously awesome and just _have_ super cool powers without any real rhyme or reason. We don't need no stinking chooser! We make ourselves the chosen one!


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## Mindfire

Mythopoet said:


> This trope is as old at least as ancient Greek myth so no, it's not because of the American Dream. Though it could be argued that what America has done is take the "Chosen One" and remove the "chosen". We seem to prefer our heroes to just _be_ ridiculously awesome and just _have_ super cool powers without any real rhyme or reason. We don't need no stinking chooser! We make ourselves the chosen one!



I don't think that's even specific to America. I think it's just modern thinking in general.


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## Russ

I found the list entertaining and would agree with about half of them.

It was fun to read, but don't suspect it was meant to be taken overly seriously.

It does stand as a good warning though if you are going to write something cliche, you have to step up a notch higher.

The first complaint I was 100% with.  Give me China Mieville over Tolkien-lite anyday.


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## Incanus

So assassins and thieves aren't cliche yet?  Curious.  Seems like every other book on the fantasy bookshelves these days are about assassins.  Maybe we need to wait another decade or so for that one.

On the other hand, none of the newer writers I've been reading use 'flowery' prose that I've seen.  Yeah, not a great list--one cliche I can't find being used, and a over-used occupation that isn't mentioned.  Shrug.


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## Mythopoet

Incanus said:


> So assassins and thieves aren't cliche yet?  Curious.  Seems like every other book on the fantasy bookshelves these days are about assassins.  Maybe we need to wait another decade or so for that one.



They're still acceptable because they're dark and gritty. Anything that is anti-Tolkien is en vogue. 

Seriously, I'm so sick of assassins and thieves. The only place I've really enjoyed them was Discworld, which of course was always willing to poke fun at itself. I've been avoiding assassins and thieves like the plague for years. And what do you know, I tried a new book by a new author recently (an indie whose book I got for free) and lo and behold there is an assassin character that I can't help liking. So you just never know. Even when you're sick of something, you can end up finding books that do it well.


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## Incanus

Like any cliche, there are plenty of successful versions of it.  I suppose as long as something is still currently popular, though much used, it doesn't quite qualify as a cliche.  I guess cliche is not so much a matter of how much it is used, but a matter of when it _appears _to have been overused, according to a significant portion of the population.  I'm not going to strain my brain over this stuff though.

There does seem to be a bit of a Tolkien backlash going on.  No matter.  For myself, I'm always going to be attracted to quality over 'vogue'.  Upon rare occasions, they even coincide (I happen to be a GRRM fan).


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## Panda

I think assassins and thieves are still popular because they're fun to play in role-playing games, and there's a huge intersection between people who like RPGs and people who read (and write) fantasy stories.

By the way, not to repeat what Mythopoet and others have already said but, since I said earlier in the thread that I love coming-of-age stories, I feel it's important to clarify: "Normal person chooses to become hero" and "Normal person is destined to be a hero" really are two completely different tropes. I'm a fan of the former, not the latter. In fact, I really freaking hate the latter.


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## Jabrosky

On the topic of cliches in general, allow to me to propose that there's more to the problem than an inherent dislike of monotony on our part (we humans are still, and always have been, creatures of habit and ritual). In some cases when we encounter cliches, our gut reaction is to lose faith in the writer's skill, and often question their literary sincerity too. Be honest, whenever you see a post-_Twilight _paranormal romance, especially one with vampires or werewolves, your first thought says "hack" or "opportunist". With the next Hollywood reboot, it's something to do with studio greed at the expense of creative effort. It's not simply that we're bored of these trends, it's that we're setting up a filter against halfhearted rip-offs. Cliches to us are not the problem alone but a warning flag for hackery.


----------



## Incanus

Panda said:


> I think assassins and thieves are still popular because they're fun to play in role-playing games, and there's a huge intersection between people who like RPGs and people who read (and write) fantasy stories.
> 
> By the way, not to repeat what Mythopoet and others have already said but, since I said earlier in the thread that I love coming-of-age stories, I feel it's important to clarify: "Normal person chooses to become hero" and "Normal person is destined to be a hero" really are two completely different tropes. I'm a fan of the former, not the latter. In fact, I really freaking hate the latter.



Yes.  I think I agree with every single word here.  The distinction you point out is HUGE.


----------



## Nagash

I usually try to avoid "hate-lists" such as this one without any nuance to the concept of clichÃ©. Take it from a former hater who's always been helplessly closed to far too many things in way to short a life time... I've learned, with time, that a clichÃ© is generally something classic or excessively appealing which has been copied over and over again with limited success. I'd say a clichÃ© is a distortion of something that used to be great, but was overshadowed by its poor imitations. I believe most - not every single one of them - of the plot elements listed in the article can still be very effective and appealing, if the author is subtle enough and adds a little innovation to the genre. Yes, "the chosen one" is something we've seen in literally every fantasy (and even sci-fi) work of the past decades, and most of the time, it did come off as bland. Yet, every once in a while, there comes someone who's just creative enough to make it somewhat original, intriguing and "personal". I like to use irony to make these clichÃ©s my own; i.e., the man who's convinced he's the chosen one, galvanizes those around him, and eventually fails dramatically, leaving his adepts in complete confusion and questioning the idea of a "chosen one". As pointed out above, the GRRM vibe these days really helps to recycle these clichÃ©s in a darker mood.

I'll repeat what has been said before, just because it's worth being said that many times: you should never stick to hate something when approaching creative writing, just because it feels so "overused". Instead, try to think how to make a common occurrence unique.


----------



## Guy

cupiscent said:


> I don't read for person vs beast, or even good vs evil. I read for person vs person and person vs system. Endless pages of monster-splatting has no real emotional meaning for me. But fantasy gives the biggest and best pvp or pvs storylines.


By and large, I do, too. But I would think somewhere, either in the blurb or the cover art, but somewhere there would probably be an indicator that somewhere within this book their lurks the possibility of mythical beasts. That being the case, anyone who hates them should not read it. I'm sick to death of vampire stories, so as soon as I see the book is about vampires, I put it down and move on. 

Now that I think about it, this is true of most of these things these people are whining about.


----------



## joshwolf

Thanks to everyone above who reminded us to focus on the positive. Yes, even the basic Joseph Campbell-hero's journey could be described as a clichÃ©, but I agree with Tom N. that a clichÃ© is ripe for subversive originality. Spin it! Fracture it! Fantasy will never stop evolving, whether we're dredging up a Greek myth for the umpteenth time or mining German fairytales again and again.


----------



## Fyle

Ireth said:


> I think Katniss would be a unique case. There's no prophecy around her like Neo, and she's not the child of anyone super important, whether for good or evil, like Luke or Aragorn. Katniss is just an ordinary girl who did something extraordinary, volunteering as a Tribute in the Games, and that is what made people pay attention to her. She gets where she's going by her own merit, not because of law or magic or prophecy.




It's about her starting point vs. her ending point. Not really about the details of her story. Maybe she is a weaker example, but still goes from ordinary to worldwide fame and importance.

If she stayed at home and watched the games from beginning to end, being politically active and hardly noticed by the government, then she would not be an example at all.

Or, if the story started out as Katniss _already_ a star in the games, the plotline would not take her from ordinary to star.


----------



## Addison

I found two good ways to beat cliches. 

As cliches are usually used to describe someone or thing take a few minutes to think about the subject and describe it as a riddle. Imagine you're Bilbo facing Gollum in the riddle game. Whether you're describe the wind, snow, a man's clever mind or sneaky hands, describe it in a riddle. You'll be amazed at the non-cliche words you come up with. 

Second is to just step back and think. When it comes to describing things we're on an auto pilot after our own reading experience to use certain descriptions and such. For instance, "white as snow". There are hundreds of different things in the world that are white that can be used. Off the top of my head: flour, sugar, paper, rice, clouds, ice, marshmallow.
Different words can give the subject more depth. 

For instance when describing someone's hair as "snow-white" you get a different image than "marshmallow-white". Because we associate the two adjectives with different things. Snow is flat, cold with a sharp glow. Marshmallows are soft, warm and fluffy. 

Try this out and be surprised. Happy Writing.


----------



## Jabrosky

I agree that there's something to be said for twisting an old trope to get story ideas. Certainly old tropes can be fertile soil for the "what if" questions that give the macro-genre of speculative fiction its name. I might even recommend writing down a summary of the most cliched storyline you can imagine, just so you can see which aspects you want to fiddle with.

Let's say you have in mind the trope of missionaries getting captured by cannibalistic natives in some faraway jungle. What if the missionaries were the cannibals, perhaps in the manner of Jeffrey Dahmer or Hannibal Lecter, and the natives had good reason to keep them at bay? Maybe it's the natives who get captured, and they have to somehow break out of the mission before those crazy missionaries eat them. Hey, that actually sounds like the rudiments of a neat horror movie idea to me.


----------



## Guy

Jabrosky said:


> I agree that there's something to be said for twisting an old trope to get story ideas. Certainly old tropes can be fertile soil for the "what if" questions that give the macro-genre of speculative fiction its name. I might even recommend writing down a summary of the most cliched storyline you can imagine, just so you can see which aspects you want to fiddle with.
> 
> Let's say you have in mind the trope of missionaries getting captured by cannibalistic natives in some faraway jungle. What if the missionaries were the cannibals, perhaps in the manner of Jeffrey Dahmer or Hannibal Lecter, and the natives had good reason to keep them at bay? Maybe it's the natives who get captured, and they have to somehow break out of the mission before those crazy missionaries eat them. Hey, that actually sounds like the rudiments of a neat horror movie idea to me.


When I first heard someone had written Beowulf from Grendel's perspective, my first image was of a guy with these noisy neighbors who stayed up partying all night, so he goes over to complain, gets assaulted by a crowd of armed drunks and things snowball from there, culminating in the poor guy getting his arm ripped off and screaming, "I'm going to tell my mom on you!"


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## glutton

I agree with this one from the article the most - "the fact that a great female warrior is NEVER as good as the hero."

And especially the "great female warrior" being portrayed as a badass against mooks or bullying men who aren't inclined to fight back but then being useless against real opposition.


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## Mindfire

glutton said:


> I agree with this one from the article the most - "the fact that a great female warrior is NEVER as good as the hero."



To be fair, neither is anyone else most of the time.


----------



## glutton

Mindfire said:


> To be fair, neither is anyone else most of the time.



Well, there is often an antagonist or more than one antagonist that's at least good enough to challenge the hero or make him look like an underdog. I tend to be pleasantly surprised when a female warrior who isn't the main lead goes head to head with that caliber of opponent and manages to not get humiliated.

I'm not necessarily looking for complete parity, just for females being sold as badasses to actually stay badass in their performances and not turn out to be paper badasses.


----------



## Jabrosky

glutton said:


> Well, there is often an antagonist or more than one antagonist that's at least good enough to challenge the hero or make him look like an underdog. I tend to be pleasantly surprised when a female warrior who isn't the main lead goes head to head with that caliber of opponent and manages to not get humiliated.
> 
> I'm not necessarily looking for complete parity, just for females being sold as badasses to actually stay badass in their performances and not turn out to be paper badasses.


If it were up to me, I'd make the heroine be the one who steps in for her man when he's down and delivers the final blow to the antagonist during the final battle.


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## X Equestris

glutton said:


> I agree with this one from the article the most - "the fact that a great female warrior is NEVER as good as the hero."
> 
> And especially the "great female warrior" being portrayed as a badass against mooks or bullying men who aren't inclined to fight back but then being useless against real opposition.



Having a female protagonist will let me avoid that one rather easily.


----------



## Mindfire

glutton said:


> Well, there is often an antagonist or more than one antagonist that's at least good enough to challenge the hero or make him look like an underdog. I tend to be pleasantly surprised when a female warrior who isn't the main lead goes head to head with that caliber of opponent and manages to not get humiliated.
> 
> I'm not necessarily looking for complete parity, just for females being sold as badasses to actually stay badass in their performances and not turn out to be paper badasses.



Ah, now I see what you mean.


----------



## Guy

glutton said:


> Well, there is often an antagonist or more than one antagonist that's at least good enough to challenge the hero or make him look like an underdog. I tend to be pleasantly surprised when a female warrior who isn't the main lead goes head to head with that caliber of opponent and manages to not get humiliated.
> 
> I'm not necessarily looking for complete parity, just for females being sold as badasses to actually stay badass in their performances and not turn out to be paper badasses.


Yep. One of the issues I had with the Drizzt series. Cattie Brie was completely competent until she's up against Artemis Entreri. Mind you, Artemis was bad ass enough to give Drizzt a run for his money, but she was instantly rendered completely helpless and easily captured. Not even a decent escape attempt. Nothing. Then the guys got to come save her. It really disappointed me.


----------



## Reilith

I really hate when a solid, capable, intelligent and badass warrior female turns into a damsel in distress. I guess that would be the one trope/cliche that really does put me off.


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## goldhawk

To me, a clichÃ© is an idea that's been done so often that nobody puts any thought into it any more. They make it very superficial and that makes it boring. For example: Frodo is the Chosen One. But he is full of fear and doubt. That makes him interest to read about.


----------



## Mindfire

goldhawk said:


> To me, a clichÃ© is an idea that's been done so often that nobody puts any thought into it any more. They make it very superficial and that makes it boring. For example: Frodo is the Chosen One. But he is full of fear and doubt. That makes him interest to read about.



Except that Frodo _isn't_ the Chosen One. There was no Great Prophecy. His triumph is portrayed as unlikely rather than inevitable, and he almost fails. He wasn't "chosen" to bear the ring at all, but the opposite. He _volunteered_ to take it. He wasn't secretly anyone special. He was an ordinary person made special by of his choices and moral conviction. Now whether the Illuvatar or the Valar willed the ring to come to Frodo because they foresaw the choices he would make- as implied by Gandalf's remark that Frodo may have been "meant" to have it- is another matter. But regardless, Frodo is remarkable because of his choices, not because he was chosen.


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## Jabrosky

goldhawk said:


> To me, a clichÃ© is an idea that's been done so often that nobody puts any thought into it any more. They make it very superficial and that makes it boring. For example: Frodo is the Chosen One. But he is full of fear and doubt. That makes him interest to read about.


Good way of looking at it. Cliches are much easier to accept if there's thought behind them.


----------



## Maximillian_dErembourg

I thought this list might revive the original theme of this thread. I recently submitted a story to Clarkseworld sci-fi magazine. This was a list of things they DID NOT want, c/p from their Submission Guidelines. 
I think this is more than just another list of someone's opinions about what they do and do not like as individuals...because this is an established magazine. SO, they see it all, they KNOW what is an overused trope, and tell submitting writers what to avoid.

stories in which a milquetoast civilian government is depicted as the sole obstacle to either catching some depraved criminal or to an uncomplicated military victory
stories in which the words "thou" or "thine" appear
talking cats
talking swords
stories where the climax is dependent on the spilling of intestines
stories where FTL travel is as easy as is it on television shows or movies
time travel too
stories that depend on some vestigial belief in Judeo-Christian mythology in order to be frightening (i.e., Cain and Abel are vampires, the End Times are a' comin', Communion wine turns to Christ's literal blood and it's HIV positive, Satan's gonna getcha, etc.)
stories about rapist-murderer-cannibals
stories about young kids playing in some field and discovering ANYTHING. (a body, an alien craft, Excalibur, ANYTHING).
stories about the stuff we all read in Scientific American three months ago
stories where the Republicans, or Democrats, or Libertarians, or the Spartacist League, etc. take over the world and either save or ruin it
your AD&D game
"funny" stories that depend on, or even include, puns
sexy vampires, wanton werewolves, or lusty pirates
zombies or zombie-wannabes
stories originally intended for someone's upcoming theme anthology or issue
stories where the protagonist is either widely despised or widely admired simply because he or she is just so smart and/or strange
stories that take place within an artsy-fartsy bohemia as written by an author who has clearly never experienced one
your trunk stories


----------



## Guy

Maximillian_dErembourg said:


> I think this is more than just another list of someone's opinions about what they do and do not like as individuals...because this is an established magazine. SO, they see it all, they KNOW what is an overused trope, and tell submitting writers what to avoid.


The fact that it's an established magazine isn't nearly as important as you might think it is. All they can say is what they don't like as individuals, not what is or is not a good story.


----------



## Svrtnsse

Maximillian_dErembourg said:


> SO, they see it all, they KNOW what is an overused trope, and tell submitting writers what to avoid.



I'm getting the impression this list isn't intended to warn of overused tropes, but to weed out enthusiastic amateurs with little to no writing experience.
If someone wrote an astoundingly brilliant story involving one or more of the items on the list, I think there's a fair chance it would be published. 

This has probably been mentioned earlier in the thread, but even so: the execution of the idea is more important than the idea itself. It's really hard to come up with completely new and innovative ideas. Pretty much everything has been done before, in one way or another. So, it's not so much about coming up with new ideas and avoiding old tropes as it is about putting an interesting twist on those ideas and tropes.


----------



## acapes

Maximillian_dErembourg said:


> stories in which a milquetoast civilian government is depicted as the sole obstacle to either catching some depraved criminal or to an uncomplicated military victory
> stories in which the words "thou" or "thine" appear
> talking cats
> talking swords
> stories where the climax is dependent on the spilling of intestines
> stories where FTL travel is as easy as is it on television shows or movies
> time travel too
> stories that depend on some vestigial belief in Judeo-Christian mythology in order to be frightening (i.e., Cain and Abel are vampires, the End Times are a' comin', Communion wine turns to Christ's literal blood and it's HIV positive, Satan's gonna getcha, etc.)
> stories about rapist-murderer-cannibals
> stories about young kids playing in some field and discovering ANYTHING. (a body, an alien craft, Excalibur, ANYTHING).
> stories about the stuff we all read in Scientific American three months ago
> stories where the Republicans, or Democrats, or Libertarians, or the Spartacist League, etc. take over the world and either save or ruin it
> your AD&D game
> "funny" stories that depend on, or even include, puns
> sexy vampires, wanton werewolves, or lusty pirates
> zombies or zombie-wannabes
> stories originally intended for someone's upcoming theme anthology or issue
> stories where the protagonist is either widely despised or widely admired simply because he or she is just so smart and/or strange
> stories that take place within an artsy-fartsy bohemia as written by an author who has clearly never experienced one
> your trunk stories



My next project must now include any or all of these


----------



## spectre

I don't hate either clichÃ©, they are always enriching I do wonder about other readers' points of view on the matter though and I'm glad you posted this! One thing I will say though is that I read Terry Brooks' first book like two years ago, I forget the title, that is how under developed he laid out his story, with commonly used clichÃ©s and I think that that is the clichÃ© pitfall: lay them out and knock them down like dominoes, but don't make any nice fall patterns.


----------



## Antaus

I honestly don't know if this qualifies as a cliche but there is something that annoys me to no end. The hero and villain are having the big climactic battle that's been coming for the past thirty chapters. They're fighting it out on he edge of a cliff, in the rain, swords swinging, spells slinging. The villain gets the upper hand, stabs the hero in the stomach who then falls off the cliff into the darkness below and the chapters ends. The next chapter then begins with Martha Stewart baking cookies in her kitchen. WTF?! I don't care about cookies, what happened to the hero damn it?!


----------



## Miles Lacey

Virtually all genres of fiction have their cliches.  Indeed, these cliches largely define particular genres.  Take away some of the cliches listed in various lists of fantasy cliches and the genre simply would not exist.  The cliches listed also come and go based on whatever is popular at the time.  

Yet, what I find most amusing about these cliche lists is that, while people may moan about them, they will happily spend their money on the most cliche-riddled fantasy books, films and games.  

The _Harry Potter _series and _The Elder Scroll _games are both riddled with fantasy and other cliches but both have done phenomenally well financially.  I have enjoyed both franchises immensely but it doesn't mean I don't notice the cliches, especially now that I have read quite a few fantasy novels and played a few other fantasy games (such as _Dragon Age: Origins_).


----------



## pmmg

Did this one come back to life? I try not to focus on the stuff people hate, and this original article (if its still relevant) would seem to come from a cynical and jaded source. I found myself asking, if you hate all that so much, why pay attention to it? But...all of those things are good in their own way, and bad in others. Fantasy may have a lot of chosen ones and dark lords, but it also gets to explore the big themes that go along with chosen ones and dark lords, and present them in way that can ask big questions. I suppose, this list is something to file away, but hate on, I don't think so.


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie

Antaus said:


> I honestly don't know if this qualifies as a cliche but there is something that annoys me to no end. The hero and villain are having the big climactic battle that's been coming for the past thirty chapters. They're fighting it out on he edge of a cliff, in the rain, swords swinging, spells slinging. The villain gets the upper hand, stabs the hero in the stomach who then falls off the cliff into the darkness below and the chapters ends. The next chapter then begins with Martha Stewart baking cookies in her kitchen. WTF?! I don't care about cookies, what happened to the hero damn it?!



it would be hilarious if this literally happened tho. Martha Stewart and all ya kno


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie

Maximillian_dErembourg said:


> I thought this list might revive the original theme of this thread. I recently submitted a story to Clarkseworld sci-fi magazine. This was a list of things they DID NOT want, c/p from their Submission Guidelines.
> I think this is more than just another list of someone's opinions about what they do and do not like as individuals...because this is an established magazine. SO, they see it all, they KNOW what is an overused trope, and tell submitting writers what to avoid.
> 
> stories in which a milquetoast civilian government is depicted as the sole obstacle to either catching some depraved criminal or to an uncomplicated military victory
> stories in which the words "thou" or "thine" appear
> talking cats
> talking swords
> stories where the climax is dependent on the spilling of intestines
> stories where FTL travel is as easy as is it on television shows or movies
> time travel too
> stories that depend on some vestigial belief in Judeo-Christian mythology in order to be frightening (i.e., Cain and Abel are vampires, the End Times are a' comin', Communion wine turns to Christ's literal blood and it's HIV positive, Satan's gonna getcha, etc.)
> stories about rapist-murderer-cannibals
> stories about young kids playing in some field and discovering ANYTHING. (a body, an alien craft, Excalibur, ANYTHING).
> stories about the stuff we all read in Scientific American three months ago
> stories where the Republicans, or Democrats, or Libertarians, or the Spartacist League, etc. take over the world and either save or ruin it
> your AD&D game
> "funny" stories that depend on, or even include, puns
> sexy vampires, wanton werewolves, or lusty pirates
> zombies or zombie-wannabes
> stories originally intended for someone's upcoming theme anthology or issue
> stories where the protagonist is either widely despised or widely admired simply because he or she is just so smart and/or strange
> stories that take place within an artsy-fartsy bohemia as written by an author who has clearly never experienced one
> your trunk stories



I will die clutching my talking cats. 

Actually I'm not currently writing or planning anything that includes them. But I love the trope to death.


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie

Going back to the original article (although this is an old thread) it seems like there are two types of list items: 

There's things that can be seen as inherently problematic. Horses used like cars without any magical explanation, etc. These are the thing that come from poor research, lack of research, bad storytelling, or icky ideas (ex: using the rape of a female character as a plot device to motivate a male character). I don't think an inaccurate perception of the middle ages is a cliche, it's just a problem of not being informed. (Of course you don't have to copy Earth completely, you can have extra-hardy horses if you want, but it has to be on purpose and not just because you're ignorant about horses. Same with cultures and governments and stuff.) 

Then there are the things that these people just find annoying or overused. Dragons, glowing swords, prophecies, et cetera...as much as they are overused there's nothing inherently bad about them other than they annoy a lot of people. These are the "cliches."


----------



## TheCrystallineEntity

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> I will die clutching my talking cats.
> 
> Actually I'm not currently writing or planning anything that includes them. But I love the trope to death.


 Me, too.


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> Me, too.



have you read the Books of Elsewhere? They're middle grade, but I often like those.


----------



## TheCrystallineEntity

I haven't. I'll make sure to check them out. Have you ever read the Enchanted Forest Chronicles?


----------



## DragonOfTheAerie

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> I haven't. I'll make sure to check them out. Have you ever read the Enchanted Forest Chronicles?



Tried. Couldn't get into them :/


----------



## TheCrystallineEntity

I like them a lot. Ah, well. 

To go back on topic, one cliche that I'm sick of is damsels in distress.


----------



## ImaginationGoneWild

The only thing I don't like is the 'Falling in love at first sight'. I get that you can find someone very attractive to the point where the knight might want to pursue the princess to find out more. But for the love of good don't make it seem like they're ready to die for one another without saying more then a few sentences. 

I mean who knows, your princess might look this pretty because she made a pact with the devil? Or your knight could turn out to be a fraud. x-x
Get to know each other first before you start to jump on each other.

And another thing, love scenes that are just bad timing. Like, I'm not going to be in the mood after being chased by evil overlords through half the freaking forest; exhausted, sore, hungry, scared, my clothes are torn and wet... But wait, my handsome knight is by my side and the fire is crackling romantically with rat meat roasting over it...

Yes...let's bone.

I mean, I'll cuddle if I'm scared but seriously, realism!


----------



## Mythopoet

ImaginationGoneWild said:


> And another thing, love scenes that are just bad timing. Like, I'm not going to be in the mood after being chased by evil overlords through half the freaking forest; exhausted, sore, hungry, scared, my clothes are torn and wet... But wait, my handsome knight is by my side and the fire is crackling romantically with rat meat roasting over it...
> 
> Yes...let's bone.
> 
> I mean, I'll cuddle if I'm scared but seriously, realism!



OMG, YES!! I very nearly forgot I was reading on a kindle so badly did I want to throw David Gemmel's Legend against the wall when this EXACT thing happened right in the beginning! Only a man would imagine a natural progression from "I hate you" to "you saved my life" to "take me, my hero!" within a period of hours.


----------



## Yora

I can not accept Chosen Ones. It's just not going to happen.


----------



## Orior

I know what you mean when you talk about cultures that should not have anything in common with Earth but that looks too similar to the Roman Empire and other ancient cultures. It is obvious that as humans we have to take after something that we have seen or that we want to see. Also, it is very hard to connect with a reader that does not find anything in common with their own world in the story. 
In my opinion, you should get a delightful mix of history, culture and imagination. For example, Romans are good, but what if some of them, randomly, were born with wings? What if they could conquer new lands because they could fly? And you can go from there.
I know it's boring to read things that look like a history book, but history can really be inspiring and interesting, especially for Readers.
Anyway, if there is a story completey undetatched from earthly cultures, I would love to read that.

Orior


----------



## TheCrystallineEntity

My stories would kind of count for being completely unattached to earthly cultures, since they take place in other universes with lots of magic and stuff.


----------



## Miles Lacey

I think one of the most tiresome cliches that often doesn't get a mention in these cliche lists is when people create worlds that are supposed to be different but the morals, family structures and domestic set-up remain basically the same as here on Earth.  

Does anyone bother to consider that if you change one thing in a society that other things are also going to change?  If Islam had emerged in a tropical environment rather than a desert environment would women be required to cover themselves up from head to toe as is the case in many Muslim countries?  If most people in a world are bisexual wouldn't this change the very make-up or definition of the traditional family?  If all genders were equal in the world being created wouldn't this also change many of the institutions and social "norms" that exist largely because of the (false) notion that women are somehow weaker or inferior to men?  

Just something worth thinking about.


----------



## Laurence

Miles Lacey said:


> I think one of the most tiresome cliches that often doesn't get a mention in these cliche lists is when people create worlds that are supposed to be different but the morals, family structures and domestic set-up remain basically the same as here on Earth.
> 
> Does anyone bother to consider that if you change one thing in a society that other things are also going to change?  If Islam had emerged in a tropical environment rather than a desert environment would women be required to cover themselves up from head to toe as is the case in many Muslim countries?  If most people in a world are bisexual wouldn't this change the very make-up or definition of the traditional family?  If all genders were equal in the world being created wouldn't this also change many of the institutions and social "norms" that exist largely because of the (false) notion that women are somehow weaker or inferior to men?
> 
> Just something worth thinking about.



For me, as a straight western man, this works thanks to wish fulfilment. I’m more likely to read the story of a man who settles down with a kind, badass woman and fights bad guys with his nuclear family of heroes because that’s essentially my dream. I don’t have the hero part in my life so need to at least connect by some of the lifestyle and culture. 

I can see how this would be lame if you’re part of the minority though and there’s obviously a limit as to how similar the worlds cultures can be without being boring.


----------



## TheCrystallineEntity

<If most people in a world are bisexual wouldn't this change the very make-up or definition of the traditional family? If all genders were equal in the world being created wouldn't this also change many of the institutions and social "norms" that exist largely because of the (false) notion that women are somehow weaker or inferior to men?>
Indeed, those are questions I've either considered or subconsciously had in mind when "discovering" [as Tolkien would say] my books.


----------



## Miles Lacey

Laurence said:


> For me, as a straight western man, this works thanks to wish fulfilment. I’m more likely to read the story of a man who settles down with a kind, badass woman and fights bad guys with his nuclear family of heroes because that’s essentially my dream. I don’t have the hero part in my life so need to at least connect by some of the lifestyle and culture.
> 
> I can see how this would be lame if you’re part of the minority though and there’s obviously a limit as to how similar the worlds cultures can be without being boring.



My criticism is of people who write stories where they have created a world where they have made a fundamental change such as doing away with a faith like Christianity or have changed the megafauna of their world but they don't think about the ramifications - or potential - of what they have done.  Instead they just assume that the institutions such as marriage and the state and cultural things like wardrobes etc will remain pretty much the same as in our world.

I find it tiresome because it's bad world building and it shows a complete lack of imagination.


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## TheCrystallineEntity

Miles Lacey said:


> My criticism is of people who write stories where they have created a world where they have made a fundamental change such as doing away with a faith like Christianity or have changed the megafauna of their world but they don't think about the ramifications - or potential - of what they have done.  Instead they just assume that the institutions such as marriage and the state and cultural things like wardrobes etc will remain pretty much the same as in our world.
> 
> I find it tiresome because it's bad world building and it shows a complete lack of imagination.



This kind of thing has bothered me for years. The way I see it, humans are like honeycombs--change a significant thing about them, or their culture or history, and it's like a domino effect. A lot of writers seem to ignore this with alarming frequency.


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## Skybreaker Sin K'al

Well, this isn't exactly a cliche of fantasy _storytelling, _but I hate it when they print really large hardback books in big font size. Got some copies of Eragon like this, just a complete scam. Use smaller font and less paper, please. It just makes the book far easier to get through.


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## Miles Lacey

Skybreaker Sin K'al said:


> Well, this isn't exactly a cliche of fantasy _storytelling, _but I hate it when they print really large hardback books in big font size. Got some copies of Eragon like this, just a complete scam. Use smaller font and less paper, please. It just makes the book far easier to get through.



The ones that are hardback with large font are generally intended for people who have eyesight issues.  As the population ages the number of books that'll be like this will increase.  Of course you can always go for the paperback versions because the font in those are smaller and use less paper.  They're also a lot cheaper (at least here in New Zealand that''s the case).


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