# What to do when grammar gets you down.



## TGNewman (May 11, 2013)

I've been getting feedback on my work. Story is solid, but the grammar and use of adjectives needs work.

My trouble with commas is getting me down. I woke up this morning eager to write, but now all I'm doing is chewing through my work, trying to sort out grammatical issues. I want to make progress today, but I don't see how.

Any advice guys and gals?

Kind Regards,

Thomas


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## wordwalker (May 11, 2013)

I avoid most problems with commas by trying not to let more than two into a sentence, unless some are obviously forming a straight-line chain ("Do I run, or hide, or talk, or fight?"). Besides those two I might use one dash, elipse, or semicolon--they break a sentence into larger chunks, without getting confused with the commas.


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## Guru Coyote (May 11, 2013)

One tool that has helped me a lot is:
Pro Writing Aid - Free Editing Software
It won't teach you how to write, but at least it will point out the issues in your text and re-evaluate it when you made changes. Not sure how helpful this will be with commas, though.

Another good advice might be to find someone who is good at editing and ask them to sit down with you and go through your text and point out issues and how to fix them. Sometimes this can even be done via email, but that requires a lot of work on the side of the editor (marking the issues and adding comments/suggestions, etc.)


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## Steerpike (May 11, 2013)

Commas are slaves to my will. I use them when and where I want them for reasons of rhythm, pacing, sentence flow, and so on. I find it more productive to just focus on how the sentence sounds rather than trying to fixate on grammatical rules in that regard. I'm perfectly happy to throw in a comma when the rules don't call for one, or to remove one when they do.

As for adjectives...do you have an example?


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## Guru Coyote (May 11, 2013)

BTW: Commas can save lives:
"Come let's eat Grandpa." vs. "Come let's eat, Grandpa."


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## Chessie (May 11, 2013)

Try reading your work aloud. This works well for me. I'll be reading and whaaa? Oh, that does not sound right (fix), continue reading. I think its helpful in gauging pace, etc. Look up examples of grammar and sentence structure on the internet. I found several youtube videos that were helpful.


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## Guru Coyote (May 11, 2013)

Chesterama said:


> I found several youtube videos that were helpful.



Heh. That feels a bit like using a phone to see foreign places, but there you go! Whatever works


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## kayd_mon (May 11, 2013)

You can always get someone to copy edit your work for you.


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## TGNewman (May 11, 2013)

kayd_mon said:


> You can always get someone to copy edit your work for you.



Now that is expensive.


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## Penpilot (May 11, 2013)

I say bite the bullet and make sure you relatively confident in what you're doing with grammar. Grammar isn't my strong point, but when I'm writing, I try to make sure I know what I'm doing. When I come across grammar issues, I make sure I know the rule before I break it.

Why not spend time figuring out proper grammar before forging ahead. Because it just means you'll be making more mistakes that you'll have to fix later on.


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## Butterfly (May 11, 2013)

What you need...

Invest in a good writing guide...

Here's one that's quite good... and for only 1p it's a bargain

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Collins-Goo...r=8-1&keywords=good+writing+guide+graham+king

mmm.... more expensive on .com

Collins Good Writing Guide: The Essential Guide To Good Writing: Graham King: 9780007165391: Amazon.com: Books


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## kayd_mon (May 11, 2013)

TGNewman said:


> Now that is expensive.



You could trade copy editing for critiques, perhaps.


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## ecdavis (May 11, 2013)

At the risk of sounding like a rebel, I'd say write first, do the best you can, but worry about grammar in the editing process.   Nothing will kill creativity more than worrying about correct punctuation and such.   Most word processors have a bare-bones grammar checker, but I'd say have a couple of good proofreaders read your work afterwards.   You are certainly not alone in this problem.   Commas, semi-colons and the use of capitals have always been a stumbling block for me.   It makes me wonder how many wonderful stories are never written because the potential writers are too scared to try in fear of revealing their lack of mastery of the craft.   

ecdavis


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## Ghost (May 11, 2013)

TGNewman said:


> I've been getting feedback on my work. Story is solid, but the grammar and use of adjectives needs work.
> 
> My trouble with commas is getting me down. I woke up this morning eager to write, but now all I'm doing is chewing through my work, trying to sort out grammatical issues. I want to make progress today, but I don't see how.
> 
> Any advice guys and gals?



For general grammar help, I'd suggest getting a book or style guide. I like learning about grammar, but most grammar books are perfectly terrible. They can be a collision of condescending tone, outdated rules, and dry style. If a book on writing or grammar is boring, it's not going to teach me how to write engaging work. I'd recommend _The Deluxe Transitive Vampire_. It's short, sweet, and basic. I don't have a recommendation for a style and usage guide, but I suggest visiting a library to find a guide that appeals to you.

For specific grammar issues, I turn to Google. Sometimes, I just need to brush up or get clarification. Searching "how to use a comma" pulls up these results:

Purdue's Online Writing Lab: Extended Rules for Using Commas (great website for grammar help.)
UNC's Writing Center: Commas
The Complete Idiot's Guide: How to Use a Comma
wikiHow Comma Usage Cheat Sheet

Purdue's OWL and Grammar Girl are good. I also like browsing ESL forums because people usually explain why something is done and how it's used by regular people.

Maybe you could pull a Hemingway and throw most of your commas out. 



wordwalker said:


> I avoid most problems with commas by trying not to let more than two into a sentence, unless some are obviously forming a straight-line chain ("Do I run, or hide, or talk, or fight?").



I wouldn't use commas like this. "Do I run or hide or talk or fight?" is marginally better because you're not splitting the subject from the verbs, but I'm not a fan of this construction. I guess it depends on your style and whether you think the effect is worth it.


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## Guru Coyote (May 11, 2013)

Commas, by the way, can save lives. Don't think so? Consider this: "Let's eat Daddy." And then this: "Let's eat, Daddy."

(sorry, coun't resist. Blame it on the Coyote.)


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## Guru Coyote (May 11, 2013)

Ghost said:


> I'd recommend _The Deluxe Transitive Vampire_. It's short, sweet, and basic.



A book by that title just needs to be on my shelf. Thanks for the tip


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## Alex Beecroft (May 13, 2013)

Don't worry too much about the grammar while you're writing the first draft. You can fix commas and adjectives and so on when the story is all written. When you've told the story and ironed out the plot holes, then you can do a later sweep with a grammar primer like Anne Stillman's "Grammatically Correct" considering the commas and other fine tuning.


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## LadyKatina (May 14, 2013)

I'm going to jump on the "don't try to edit as you write" bandwagon. It's like trying to pat yourself on the head and rub your belly simultaneously. _However_...

Sometimes, going back and copyediting the passage I just wrote gets me unstuck when I'm blocked. I just have to remember when I shift gears from editing brain to writing brain, to turn off editing brain. Otherwise, I get frustrated because the new stuff is rougher than what I just edited. Well, _yeah._ You just edited that part, silly. 

Perhaps you're stuck because your brain wants to edit, and you're trying to draft. Maybe if you let your brain edit some previously-drafted stuff, it will allow you to shift gears and start drafting again. 

_Also..._.

When I first started getting serious about writing again, I discovered all these rules I didn't know before. Like "Adverbs are the devil" and such like. On the one hand, I felt like I was being initiated into the Cool Kids of Professional Writing Tips Club. On the other hand, I became really self-conscious about those things that never bothered me about my writing before. 

It's good that you are taking language and grammar seriously. They're your toolset, and as a professional you should take your tools seriously. But don't let that focus on the tools get in the way of creating. Your drafts will be messy. Create first, craft later.


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## Twook00 (May 14, 2013)

Many are saying to write the story now and worry about grammar later.  I think this is true so long as you don't plan on showing it to anyone until the grammar has been corrected.  If you are wanting critiques, though, and have not yet made those corrections, poor grammar will confuse the reader and draw attention away from your story.  

I think of it like a wagon going down a road.  Grammatical errors are potholes and rocks.  Every time I hit one, it slows me down and throws me off course (and out of the story).


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## psychotick (May 14, 2013)

Hi,

Ask Grandpa!

Sorry couldn't resist. And commas can get people sued. A long time ago when people were still using telegrams a comma cost someone at the post office a lot of money. He had an agent buying a thoroughbred for him so communications were by telegram. The agent having seen the horse and heard the price sent back a message saying the horse was several hundreds of thousands of dollars, and asking him if he should proceed to buy it. The buyer sent back "No, price too high." But the agent received "No price too high." That was an expenisive comma.

My thought is to do both while writing. Yes as the muse takes you write. Write like the wind, and damned by the punctuation and syntax. But always rewrite what you've written, when you're not so inspired, and that's the time to start checking on errors. Then of course get someone else to proof it when the time is right.

Cheers, Greg.


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## LadyKatina (May 14, 2013)

I can't help but mention all the "Punctuation saves lives" posts make me think about my day job. It's SHOCKING the number of coffee mugs and t-shirts people will buy with some variation of that joke on them.


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## T.Allen.Smith (May 14, 2013)

This...



Steerpike said:


> Commas are slaves to my will. I use them when and where I want them for reasons of rhythm, pacing, sentence flow, and so on. I find it more productive to just focus on how the sentence sounds rather than trying to fixate on grammatical rules in that regard. I'm perfectly happy to throw in a comma when the rules don't call for one, or to remove one when they do.



Grammar is important but not at the expense of story elements. A character's speech pattern, or prose written in a specific way to invoke feeling, is far more important than restricting myself to grammatical rules, as long as I'm bending those rules for a purpose.

I suppose it depends on what grammatical issues you're having with commas. If you're using them completely inappropriately, and not for some effect, then perhaps you do need to work on some fundamentals. Care to elaborate on the way you're using commas?


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## saellys (May 19, 2013)

If grammar is your weakness, get a guide like those recommended earlier in this thread and learn how to use it. Grammar is part of writing, and by extension, it's part of being a good writer. 

Furthermore, if you rely on your betas to point out your grammatical mistakes instead of bettering yourself so you don't make them in the first place, you're going to have a bunch of betas who are so bogged down with fixing your grammar that they don't have the time or energy to say anything constructive about your story. A good beta should catch the few minor grammatical mistakes you missed, then give you a ton of notes on characterization, continuity, immersion, and pacing (plus anything else they notice). They should not have to focus on grammar to the exclusion of all that. A disproportionate amount of grammar mistakes will detract from the story, which is what they're there to critique. 

It's okay for grammar to be your weakness, but it's not okay for you to keep it that way and rely on others to fix it for you. Kill your weakness.


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## Addison (May 19, 2013)

I agree with T.Allen. Your choice and use of grammar is just as much a part of your tone and voice as anything else. 
Me, personally, I don't sweat the grammar stuff until I'm at least in my fourth draft of the story. That way I don't hang myself before hand.


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## thequillwitch (May 19, 2013)

I think you should focus on your story first and foremost. In the meantime try taking some courses on grammar and punctuation. ThereÂ´s a bunch of free stuff on the internet. Write your story then go back and edit with the info on hand. The whole adver adjective thing is really personal taste i think.


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## saellys (May 19, 2013)

Grammar affects readability, and is about much more than personal taste/tone/style.


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## T.Allen.Smith (May 20, 2013)

saellys said:


> Grammar affects readability, and is about much more than personal taste/tone/style.



I agree with this for the most part which I why I stated...



> ...as long as I'm bending those rules for purpose.



You certainly don't want grammar to be a detractor, something working to pull your reader out if the story world. Still, there is a certain point within storytelling & style, where an absolute adherence to grammar rules should be forced into the back seat...for a purpose.


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## wordwalker (May 20, 2013)

The trick is, to "break" the rules you have to know where they are-- otherwise you run into them by mistake and just trip over them.

With grammar, that isn't _quite_ the same as having to know every rule of perfect English, but it certainly means knowing what form makes what word refer to what, what readers subconsciously expect from a professionally-used punctuation mark, and so on. Call it knowing the common denominator of what words mean to the most readers.

Then you can start tweaking, so that the final result's enough of what you want without taking the readers too far; when you distract (or confuse) someone, all your wit and poetry are wasted.


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## saellys (May 20, 2013)

Exactly. The rules exist for a very good reason--to insure that your readers understand your meaning. Sometimes the rules of grammar legitimately do get in the way of style, or your narrator's voice demands certain concessions. T.Allen and wordwalker both have it right: grammar-bending should happen for a good reason, and you can only do it successfully if you know how grammar works to begin with. 

Long story short, if you want to be a writer, you need to understand grammar.


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## TGNewman (May 21, 2013)

Thank you all for your helpful replies. I have taken a great deal of advice on board.

I'm going back and getting my grammar down, before I continue with my most recent edit.

Thanks again,

Thomas


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## saellys (May 22, 2013)

Good luck! I promise that being able to do this stuff effortlessly will be totally worth the time you're putting into it now.


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