# Change of Tone on the Forum



## Amanita (Jan 19, 2012)

This is something that's been bothering me for quite a while now. 
The number of topics full with arguments, personal insults and nasty comments has increased very much during the last few month. Any thread about social or political issues seems to go out of hand really quickly but I've noticed the same in some writing-related threads as well. Some of these comments really make it hard for me to keep respecting the one who wrote it the way I did before. 
And even in threads that aren't like that yet, you often stumble about some comments amounting to "you're all stupid because you don't agree with me".

Besides that the number of topics where people try to tell others what to do are plentiful as well, be it about grammar, the books by English-language authors you absolutely have to have read to call yourself a fantasy writer, or the language stories should be written in, what has to be done to get a story published etc. This makes me feel as if I have to defend myself almost all the time. 
The rest of the discussions have become highly technical or general as well. 
The threads that feature someone's specific idea and ask for other members' thoughts hardly exist anymore at all, in the beginning, they were the most common though and this was one of the reasons why I've joined the forum. Back then, the forum was a great boost to my creativity, now it's become a place where I might be able to improve my diplomatic abilities in sensitive discussions but it's hardly helping my writing anymore at all. 

I have to admit that I don't really like the developement of this forum and I don't really enjoy being here much anymore.
I know, I'm one person and my opinion doesn't really matter, but I'd like to know, if others are feeling the same way.


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## sashamerideth (Jan 19, 2012)

Some of the things you mentioned do have rules such as grammar. A lot of what you talk about I have seen as well, but these things happen as a community gets larger and more people start participating. 

We do a lot of things right. The moderators are even tempered and fair, something lacking on other forums. We have knowledgeable people with real industry experience. We have good articles that are relevant to what we do.

What else do you think we are doing right? Also, what are you doing to fix what you think is wrong with the site?

Sent from my Blade using Forum Runner


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## Graham Irwin (Jan 19, 2012)

I agree that things get a little catty around here. 

My first post was met with negativity and criticism.

Certain lurkers are negative, for sure, but there is plenty of good info and good threads.

It seems unfortunate that certain users want the site to be their battlefield, rather than their stronghold.


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## Black Dragon (Jan 19, 2012)

Amanita,

I've also felt discouraged at times.  There is a "nastiness" which haunts much of the Internet, and it's been making inroads here.  For a long time we were able to keep it at bay, but as we've grown it's become harder to do.

Still, I haven't given up.  We have many positive things going for us.  Likewise, many terrific people have joined in the past few months, and have made excellent contributions.  But I do understand that the hostility of a few is poisoning the water for the rest of us.

You've been with us from the beginning, Amanita, and we really value your opinion.  I give a lot of weight to your perspective on this.

What would you propose as a solution?  One possible option is to beef up the moderation, by adding more moderators with instructions to squash any nastiness on sight.

What are your thoughts?  I would like to turn things around before this gets out of hand.


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## Black Dragon (Jan 19, 2012)

Graham Irwin said:


> It seems unfortunate that certain users want the site to be their battlefield, rather than their stronghold.



Perhaps it's time for us to start playing "Survivor," and begin banishing people from the island?

I've been hesitant to do this, but if it's what's necessary, then so be it.


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## Amanita (Jan 19, 2012)

> What else do you think we are doing right?


I agree with your points about what's going right, sashamerideth. Other things I like include the often very interesting articles on the homepage (something new as well, if I remember correctly) and my thread in political correctness has become a very positive example of a good discussion as well, something that has never worked out with this subject on other forums. 




> Also, what are you doing to fix what you think is wrong with the site?


Stay away, especially from the questionable topics which isn't really helpful, I know. Sadly, it is my experience that trying to calm down trouble already there as an ordinary user usually doesn't help. People ignore it completely or get offended again, maybe because of some wrong choice of wording. 

On the subject of grammer. I completely agree that we don't want posts sed ar luking leik dis on the forum. 
And yet, I don't believe two threads with plenty of people declaring how they can't respect anyone who makes mistakes is helping anyone. 
I've left high school four years ago, and since then the only places I'm actively using the English language at are forums like this one. Reading and listening to yes, but there's hardly any writing or speaking. And even back in school we haven't done any comma rules at all for example. No one has been checking my writing for grammar issues since then either, therefore I'm never sure how many mistakes there are. Mistakes I'm not even aware of. Therefore, I always get the feeling, that these posts are directed at me and don't really want to post anything anymore at all. 
Some of the mistakes often complained about, such as writing there instead of their etc. just happen if you try to get your thoughts on the screen quickly, and sometimes you might not pick all of them up. (Actually happend to some of the people complaining about this as well ) 
Anyway, sending a PMs to members having problems with their language or with certain grammatical issues telling them to put more effort into this or giving a link to a page that explains the point in question would definitely be more helpful. (And wouldn't cost much more time either.)


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## Devor (Jan 19, 2012)

Black Dragon said:


> Perhaps it's time for us to start playing "Survivor," and begin banishing people from the island?
> 
> I've been hesitant to do this, but if it's what's necessary, then so be it.



One possibility is to go the other way, develop a subcommunity of people who've proven themselves through some sort of objective criteria.  You can make some of the forums "Members only" and aim for a more active and trusting community on those forums.  For instance, one possibility for an objective criteria might be posting work and critiques in the Showcase forum, and something which we might hope to see in the private forums could be about trying to edit and develop much larger projects, like posting your outline for the entire novel.


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## Telcontar (Jan 19, 2012)

Mmm, we have to be careful with wielding the Ban-Hammer too lightly, or creating some sort of elite class. As any community grows the chances for friction increase. For a long time these forums were a fairly insular community with relatively few active members. We're gathering more, quickly, and as Black Dragon said some of that 'nastiness' of the internet is emerging. It is caused in large part by anonymity - and the increasing size of our community makes for more anonymity amongst the members. 

I don't think we should _do_ anything about it, really, except stay positive and discourage people from mud-slinging. Trolls don't stick around if you never feed them - and closing threads/banning people IS one way of feeding trolls. It gives them a concrete reaction to their trouble-making, which is what they want to incite. 

Personally, I find it easy to ignore silly or ignorant threads and posts, so I don't think I'm affected as much as Amanita or others. I just hope we don't react by closing the forums off or limiting the chance for input - even if some of it is ugly. That way lies stagnation, and I've seen too many forums die of it.


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## Black Dragon (Jan 19, 2012)

Telcontar said:


> For a long time these forums were a fairly insular community with relatively few active members. We're gathering more, quickly, and as Black Dragon said some of that 'nastiness' of the internet is emerging. It is caused in large part by anonymity - and the increasing size of our community makes for more anonymity amongst the members.



That's a perfect summation of the problem.



> I don't think we should _do_ anything about it, really, except stay  positive and discourage people from mud-slinging. Trolls don't stick  around if you never feed them - and closing threads/banning people IS  one way of feeding trolls. It gives them a concrete reaction to their  trouble-making, which is what they want to incite.



There's a difficult balancing act between censorship and freedom of speech.  I've tended to error on the side of freedom of speech, and have always encouraged the moderators to follow my example.  However, we may have reached a point at which slightly more aggressive moderation is necessary.


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## Xanados (Jan 19, 2012)

Who in this forum is out to troll? We are all responsible and intellectual people. I wouldn't say I've encountered a single troll in this forum. We can all argue, but we aren't trolling in an immature manner.


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## sashamerideth (Jan 19, 2012)

Personally I would like to see the following with bad behavior on the forum 

a private warning via PM
A public warning in the thread in question 
A short term ban
All moderators made aware of issues that may arise 

Sometimes moderators get things wrong, make mistakes or bad judgment calls, they are mostly human, with maybe some dragon in them. If there does start to be more moderation then perhaps a mode of appeal would be in order? 

I have been on other forums that were heavily moderated and censored. Some moderators acted without oversight and abused their status to ban any who disagreed with them. I can happily say that I don't see that kind of attitude here.

Sent from my Blade using Forum Runner


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## Xanados (Jan 19, 2012)

sashamerideth said:


> Personally I would like to see the following with bad behavior on the forum
> 
> a private warning via PM
> A public warning in the thread in question
> ...


Every single one of those rules are in effect right now in the form of infractions.


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## sashamerideth (Jan 19, 2012)

Xanados said:
			
		

> Who in this forum is out to troll? We are all responsible and intellectual people. I wouldn't say I've encountered a single troll in this forum. We can all argue, but we aren't trolling in an immature manner.



Me I'm not really a recent college grad trying to work in a library somewhere in California. I'm really a short, fat, middle aged troll from Wales. 

I've seen a couple that were maybe not trolling, but certainly trying to create conflict, and I may have gotten sucked in more than I wanted to be.

Sent from my Blade using Forum Runner


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## Devor (Jan 19, 2012)

Telcontar said:


> Personally, I find it easy to ignore silly or ignorant threads and posts, so I don't think I'm affected as much as Amanita or others. I just hope we don't react by closing the forums off or limiting the chance for input - even if some of it is ugly. That way lies stagnation, and I've seen too many forums die of it.



Honestly, I meant to suggest a subcommunity as a way to increase the chance for input, not limit it.  That's why I mentioned the Showcase, one of the current private forums, as an example of ways to earn access to a subcommunity, if it existed.  The goal of having a higher level of membership would be to create a more collaborative environment to encourage people to share more specific details of their work in order to make people better writers.  I didn't mean to suggest closing off a whole bunch of the forums to everyone.  I just want to make that pretty clear.

I don't really feel like it's appropriate for me to comment a lot about moderation after the last few weeks, but I will say that if a mod jumps into a thread, quotes the perpetrator and says "I understand the point you're trying to make, but it's being lost in your tone.  Please avoid the snide remarks."  If you do that, you can also send out PMs saying, "Please leave the moderation to the mods, we've got it."  I think that's usually all that's really required.

But there's a bigger problem I've noticed, and it's that we seem to be a community of egos.  I mean that nicely, for the most part, I really do.  But I see a lot of threads where someone asks a question, and by page two people are trying to outsmart the question instead of answer it.  "How's this idea for a prologue?" quickly gets a response, "Why do you even need a prologue?"  And while that can be great in terms of an academic-type of discussion, it doesn't really answer the OP's question or provide a lot of value to the person posting the question.  I see that kind of thing happening a lot, and I think overcoming that sort of situation is the next step in getting the community to add value to its membership.  That's not something that's fixed with moderation, but it is on the subject of changing the tone.


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## fleamailman (Jan 19, 2012)

("...well I can't write like you humans do anyway, so I guess that counts me out from offering my 2cts here even if I have every faith in this forum's future as the place to get the most from one's posts..." mused the goblin who had deliberately shunned those threads that were overheated as absolutely nothing to do with our goal of writing, saying "...no, just you make it hard on yourselves, you only have to close the thread itself reopening it in the archives section, letting it die there then, at the same time you follow sash'th correct advice...", in fact, the goblin just felt that it was time for the members here to focus more on their writing and less on their fighting, saying "...you see, we have no mega thread of this forum yet, and I would really like to help everyone create a thread here that has at least 20,000 hits to it, much like I do on each of the forums I'm on, which is easy when one knows how...")


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Jan 19, 2012)

Devor said:


> But there's a bigger problem I've noticed, and it's that we seem to be a community of egos.



Well, writers _are_ megalomaniacs. I mean, look at us, we're all going around playing god, creating universes and everything... ;-)


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## The Blue Lotus (Jan 19, 2012)

Hmm, I must have missed something while I was sick...

Any how for the most part I still love this place. Regardless of some heated exchanges with members that I otherwise respect a great deal. 

I find that save for a few select posters most of which I have placed on my ignore list there is nothing to get too worked up over. With so many different personalities no one is _always_ going to get along. The fact that the "God" thread lasted as long as it did was in fact a real surprise. I figured it would have turned sideways long before it was shut down. As a matter of fact I don't think that it ever got ugly (But, I do have some people on ignor so I could be wrong), which is something everyone here should be proud of. 

I feel that this place over all is a hidden gem. Eventually the troublemakers leave... if ignored. Kudos to the MODs for being some of the best. I would like to see a section dedicated to the members who have been here longer and proven to be worth a hill-o-beans where they could exchange ideas etc with out having to worry about some of the noobs hijacking things. It is not elitist to desire a space where we don't have to worry as much about these things, _if_ anyone can earn the right to join those ranks. 

Most of the places I'm a member of have a probation system in place for new members and it works rather well. The Elder members still interact with the new people but have a place to retreat when needed and the trouble makers won't or don't take the time to gain the access to the more restricted areas. Such as the showcase. In most places there is one showcase but, you are not allowed to post anything for review until you have made a set number of useful critiques of other peoples work. Now I hate that site in general, but this one aspect I find useful. 

Another place I haunt has two showcases, one for senior members and another for new people. The only way to gain access to the second is by posting and being a useful member of the community. This takes A) time, one must be a member for six months before applying. B) Commitment, even a bad writer can be allowed access because they put forth a serious effort and are willing to learn and help where able. The work in the second showcase is by far way above par because the people that post there are helpful and skilled. 

In these senior areas the rules are simple no politics or religion, treat others as you wish to be treated.

I have never seen anyone get bounced out for any reason. 

Something to think about. But no, I am not unhappy with the site in general.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Jan 19, 2012)

Amanita said:


> I know, I'm one person and my opinion doesn't really matter, but I'd like to know, if others are feeling the same way.


Your opinion most certainly matters, and you are definitely not alone.

In a recent PM conversation with another member, I expressed this fear:


Amanita said:


> Some of these comments really make it hard for me to keep respecting the one who wrote it the way I did before.


Specifically, my fear was that heated discussions left unchecked would damage reputations.

We can all benefit if everyone makes two considerations before posting. The first is to consider whether your remark will leave the reader(s) with that same feeling expressed by Amanita in the above quote.

The second is to follow the golden rule quoted by _She Who Has Reached the Level Beyond Grandmaster:_



The Blue Lotus said:


> treat others as you wish to be treated.


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## Black Dragon (Jan 19, 2012)

Also, there's a feature that I want to make everyone aware of.

At the bottom of each post, to the right of the "Thanks" button, there is a caution symbol.  That's the "Report Post" button.  

Whenever you encounter a post that exhibits nastiness or hostility, report it via that button.  It will then alert the moderators, who will investigate the situation.

We're going to reign in argumentative, hostile posts.  They're a waste of time for everyone here.  To help with this we've added two new moderators to our team as of today.


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## Codey Amprim (Jan 20, 2012)

Uh oh. It was a matter of time before it would start, and Mythic Scribes has grown incredibly since I've joined up. In my personal experience here, I have not encountered much if any of said problems, excluding a cursed-up LOTR thread. 

I'm looking at this through blade runner currently, and I'm pretty sure it exists... But wouldn't an efficient report system be one of the best ways of dealing with this? I liked the mentioned idea of a "respected group," but I entrust the moderators with holding that title. I think having an elite group would cause some friction with members feeling left out. 
However, I do approve of the idea that you should have to "earn" your way into some of the forums - the showcase and challenges boards specifically, perhaps even this one. This brick wall so-to-speak would weed out a good number of the trolls and vulgarity-users. Perhaps to gain access, one would have to participate in a special set of newbie challenges directed by a higher-up, or gain access by achieving a certain amount of reputation points, commendations that could be implemented, or by recommendation for promotion into a member rank. 


Will post more, and upon reading this, I hope I never insulted anyone in any way or provided unintended negativity. Lemme know what you think about aforementioned solution ideas.


Edit: I just posted and noticed Black Dragon's post so disregard my report comments. 

Another idea, since there is a thanks button, why not a negativity button? Or a thumbs down? Perhaps this could be included in the report. After receiving so many you would eventually earn yourself a  temp ban then a permanent-ip ban along with email-ban to prevent new accounts from being made.
On the thumbs down button, whoever who uses this will have to provide a reason why for moderators to judge if the recipient loses rep or doesn't. This prevents abuse of the button in cases of random spitefulness or plain old douchebaggery (honestly could not think of a better way to put it).


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## Philip Overby (Jan 20, 2012)

I'm incredibly happy to call Mythic Scribes my "home" forum.  I have to agree with Amanita though (who's been here since day 1) that when the forum first started it seemed that no one ever argued about anything.  I still think we have a good group of people here, but I'd like to see more of a focus on being a support group and not a place to throw down arguments about things.  The idea of "controversy sells" kind of runs rampant on the internet.  Some topics (as I've learned teaching ESL) like religion, politics, etc. are always hot button issues that CAN create good debates, but can oftentimes turn to snark and judgment and irritation.  

I'd like everyone to get what they'd like out of this forum, but I'd encourage more discussion in the Showcase or more Writing Questions or more Challenges (like Legendary Sidekick has done wonderfully) or anything positive that can help other burgeoning fantasy writers.  I like the Chit Chat section, but some of the more controversial subjects that can be divisive have sprouted up there.  I'd like to see more thought-provoking topics about fantasy writing.  That is why we're all here after all, our love for fantasy.  Sure grammar and such is important, but let's not dwell too much on nit-picking.

I think this community will continue to grow and get new members.  Some who may contribute in awesome ways and others who maybe won't.  But I think it's important to keep in mind that we're here to help each other and not tear each other down.  If you feel like someone is attacking you, report them.  I'd love for MS to be a nurturing place and not a place where people are afraid to share their opinion because someone's going to jump down their throat because they don't agree.

Let's be nice!  For the sake of the future of fantasy!


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## Kelise (Jan 20, 2012)

I have to admit - it's mostly the reason as to why I haven't come back. I went away for a few weeks when my partner was visiting and the change that had taken place during those 18 days was astounding. It made it too hard to come back when I have so much on my plate already (I'm an appalling mod, aren't I?) but that's basically the truth.

A shame.

Hopefully once the judging I'm apart of is over (I'm a judge for the Australian Spec Fic Aurealis Awards) I'll have the time to jump back in here.


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## Sheilawisz (Jan 20, 2012)

I have been a part of Mythic Scribes only since last November, but since my first day I thought that this was a wonderful forum and I really love it here!! Sure we have some issues and fights sometimes, but really, you cannot throw so many Fantasy Writers together in the same place and hope that everything will always run smoothly =P

We have our points of view about what we do, we have different ideas, we have big egos, we have a collection of different writing styles, we are full of passion for our writing and our creations and all of that means that, at least sometimes, fights will break out- There are so many other forums with problems and fights far worse than what I have witnessed here so far, actually I think that everyone here in Mythic Scribes is very nice.

The only real problem that I see is that we have new members everyday but very few of them decide to stay and be a part of our community- Why is that? Are we scaring them away?


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## Telcontar (Jan 20, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> The only real problem that I see is that we have new members everyday but very few of them decide to stay and be a part of our community- Why is that? Are we scaring them away?



No, it's a natural thing. More people will find a forum than will actually participate. There are always 'lurkers' (I am one of these in several places) who don't feel they have much to contribute but want to follow various topics of conversation, as well as people who sign up to make one comment then go away, and lots of other types. One community I'm a part of has 40 thousand registered accounts - and maybe 4 thousand actives.

It is linked to the Pareto Principle, if you feel like reading something.


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## Black Dragon (Jan 20, 2012)

After discussion with our moderators and staff, we have determined our course of action:

http://mythicscribes.com/forums/new...important-reporting-posts-improving-tone.html


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## Jess A (Jan 21, 2012)

I must agree. 

I confess that I can be quite a direct person at times, but only when it calls for it (at least, I hope so). Even I sometimes feel a tad defensive, even though I usually don't give two ****s what people think of me. After all, they know nothing about me and all they see is a screen name!

I've not been here long, yet I see a lot of misplaced or self-righteous arrogance which privately just annoys me (not so privately if I am mentioning it now, I suppose). It does not bother me enough to stick with me after I click the cross, but it does make me a bit curious. 

*However*! I have been on a few forums in my time online, and I *never stick around long*. Part of the reason is because I both work and study. Most of the reason is because people are idiots, trolls and a**holes. The fact that I am still here shows that I think somewhat highly of this place so far. I have high standards and I'm not afraid to say it. I searched for a decent fantasy-writing forum and I feel that this is a good long-term place for me as a fantasy reader and writer. It is my understanding that you will always come across arguments, debate, 'cattiness' and arrogance in any sort of community. If anybody bothers me, I will either ignore it or give it back to them! Perhaps privately to keep the public peace...

That said, *you should not have to feel uncomfortable* and I hope your stay improves.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jan 21, 2012)

I joined only one or two months ago, and while I haven't been subject directly to any of this hostility, I have been aware of some underlying currents of tension at times and seen a few members recieve public warnings.  This place is a huge benefit for me and my writing and I agree with you all, when things get ugly its just disheartening.


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## The Blue Lotus (Jan 21, 2012)

Aidan of the tavern said:


> I joined only one or two months ago, and while I haven't been subject directly to any of this hostility, I have been aware of some underlying currents of tension at times and seen a few members recieve public warnings.  This place is a huge benefit for me and my writing and I agree with you all, when things get ugly its just disheartening.



I can't speak for everyone. However, I think (IMO) that a lot of what is being mistaken for tension is really just a clash of some very strong personalities. 





A lot of people here are larger than life in that department. Most of us are quite capable of forming strong opinions and have no qualms stating them with a great deal of emphasis. That is not always a bad thing. I can see how new people are even old people who don't really know the stronger personalities would mistake a simple battle of wits, and exchange of ideas, or a disagreement as "Tension" or "Hostility". 



You never know what is going on with someone. I rather think of it like going to court for a parking ticket. If the Judge on your case got into it with his wife... you are in for a bad day, regardless of what the real issue may be. 



This place is oft times used as a way to escape our own realities for a while. Where we can create our own worlds and work out problems however we see fit. Some people are sensitive to this, others could care less. That’s life. Unfortunately we do not have the social cues that are ingrained in us from birth that tell us how to deal with set circumstances. 



For instance, I can't see a clenched jaw line when I read "Are you stupid?" Now depending on my mood at the time I read this I might think that the poster is insulting me or angry with something I have posted. On the other hand I could take that to mean 'I disagree with you...' or ‘OMG! you have so made me LOL.’ 


_*This just makes my case for more and better emoticons. They are extremely helpful in getting the “tone” across in an otherwise static environment*_.



For the most part I honestly think that is what everyone is seeing. Simple misunderstandings based on missing information. 

Might I suggest that rather than try to defend ones self that we ask others to explain their stance?


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## Devor (Jan 21, 2012)

The Blue Lotus said:


> For instance, I can't see a clenched jaw line when I read "Are you stupid?" Now depending on my mood at the time I read this I might think that the poster is insulting me or angry with something I have posted. On the other hand I could take that to mean 'I disagree with you...' or ‘OMG! you have so made me LOL.’



For the most part I was agreeing with you before your example.  In my opinion this isn't a forum to escape to but a community with real potential to help struggling authors with real work.  While we are, as I mentioned myself, somewhat a community of egos, which isn't the same as conflict, there are some behaviors and attitudes which are beyond the scope of an effective community.  I'm pretty sure "Are you stupid?" qualifies as unnecessary conflict.


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## The Blue Lotus (Jan 21, 2012)

Ah but I have a little sister who would disagree with you. 



No one should post "are you stupid?" but as is the case with many of today’s kids what is bad sounding to me has the exact opposite meaning to someone her age... 



Another example would be "Ghetto" apparently that no longer means one who comes from a low income area and lacks any sense of education, and acts "thugish" nopes, now it is equivalent to "Radical" or "Cool".



All I meant was that sometimes people say things with the expectation that the meaning comes across as intended. again smilies help with this. I used "are you stupid" as the example because it is an expression I use a lot with the hubby. Who understands that I'm not litteraly calling him stupid, I'm calling something he said a few giggles short of rubber wall paper.  



I have yet to see anyone flat out refuse to help another on here. Which is a good thing!  Bottom line we are all human, and we all need to understand that "tone" does not transmit well. Nor do little seemingly innocent phrases that we use have universal meaning. 



It does not make it right, if someone is feeling as if they are unable to be open within the space. However, hopefully it can give them an alternate perspective.


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## Philip Overby (Jan 21, 2012)

I think if we don't know each other that well, we don't want to be calling each other stupid.  Sure, there are things I say to my friends sometimes, but I would never dream of calling someone who is mostly anonymous "stupid."  Or using any sort of language that might be misconstrued as controversial.  

I think most of the tension or argumentative nature of some of the threads can't be confused as "playing around."  There have been direct attacks (and indirect) on some of the more touchy subjects.

I think if you need to debate something, it's fine to do so.  But debate the point.


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## Kelise (Jan 21, 2012)

I think because we don't know each other that well, and that we're basically anonymous (able to hide behind avatars and usernames) there's so much more freedom to be nasty and rude.

If we could all behave as if we're co-workers, and then someday friends, it would be the right tone to take in this forum. Polite, professional - able to debate a subject whilst having respect for everyone's opinions and views on the subject. We're all different ages, from different countries, with different experiences.


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## Aidan of the tavern (Jan 21, 2012)

starconstant said:


> I think because we don't know each other that well, and that we're basically anonymous (able to hide behind avatars and usernames) there's so much more freedom to be nasty and rude.
> 
> If we could all behave as if we're co-workers, and then someday friends, it would be the right tone to take in this forum. Polite, professional - able to debate a subject whilst having respect for everyone's opinions and views on the subject. We're all different ages, from different countries, with different experiences.



Well said, dear colleague.


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## Jess A (Jan 21, 2012)

I think the 'stupid' example is just that - an example.

There are other, subtler things which can be easily misinterpreted. I find forum communication difficult at times. I read people quite well in person - I use body language, facial language, tone etc. On here? Not so easy. While we may not be going around calling somebody 'stupid', we might accidentally be stating something which to someone else might sound 'snide' or 'rude' or 'arrogant' when in actual fact it is a friendly comment. 

The best way to get around this is to clarify what they mean by asking.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Jan 21, 2012)

@Lotus,

I agree that sometimes it is just a simple misunderstanding - that no harm is intended. I also think that some people enjoy arguing. When it gets out of hand, the people IN the argument may not see it as a problem. It may be the people reading the argument who find it hostile. (I had a friend who used to argue with his wife in front of company. He thought it was cute; maybe she did, too. I thought it was miserable.)

Here's where I'm going with this:* if you - the reader - see something that looks hostile, please make use of that report button*. (I promise that I'm not wielding my shiny new Ban Hammer™ with a white-knuckle grip, just waiting for an excuse to come out swinging.) I love this site because it's a place where I can share my wild ideas, hone my writing skills, and learn from fellow writers who are positive, helpful and fun to interact with. "Positive, helpful and fun" is not a tone I want to see changed!


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## Jess A (Jan 21, 2012)

I'd hope people would use the 'report' button only when quite sure that it IS hostile. People online are the touchiest bunch I have ever met.


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## Devor (Jan 21, 2012)

Little Storm Cloud said:


> I'd hope people would use the 'report' button only when quite sure that it IS hostile. People online are the touchiest bunch I have ever met.



I'd hope things were reported early enough in the hostilities so that those involved can correct the tone before things get out of hand.  And, I mean, mods have a number of techniques they can use to intervene, not all of them are public and aggressive.  "Hey, we're sending this PM to a couple of people on this thread just in case, but please help us out by being extra aware of the tone on this thread and help us keep the conversation friendly."  I honestly think that will result in fewer locked threads instead of more.

I do understand what you're saying, of course, about making sure a comment is actually hostile before you report.  I don't mean to sound like I disagree by any means.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Jan 22, 2012)

Exactly, Devor. Just because a post is reported, it doesn't mean the creator of the reported post is "busted." The report button simply draws attention, and it works best if a hostile post is reported immediately.

EDIT - Black Dragon states my point, but much more eloquently, in the Reporting Posts thread:


Black Dragon said:


> At the bottom of each post, to the right of the "Thanks" button, you will notice a caution symbol.  This is the "Report Post" button. Pressing it will alert the moderators of the issue, and we will investigate it as soon as possible.
> 
> We are asking you to *push the "Report Post" button at the first sign of argumentative or hostile behavior.*
> 
> If you have any doubt as to whether or not the post in question is appropriate, push it anyway, and let us make the decision. We will be fair.


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## Jess A (Jan 22, 2012)

No worries Devor - your statement sounded fair from the start  Now we're being extra careful. The irony is amusing. I say that in a very playful manner. I think the idea of emoticons is fantastic! Perhaps we can secure some cool dragon ones or something along the lines of 'fantasy'.


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## The Blue Lotus (Jan 22, 2012)

Little Storm Cloud said:


> I think the idea of emoticons is fantastic! Perhaps we can secure some cool dragon ones or something along the lines of 'fantasy'.




Here here!     Some that express a wide range of emotions from not feeling well/grossed out, to banging head on wall/what was this person thinking.


@ storm, yes the "stupid" post was just that an example. Maybe it was not the best one but it was the first one that came to my mind at the time.  

Someone said something about internet people being sensitive. Hammer-Nail-Head-- Bang! That is so true, but again I think it because tone does not transfer. But we have alredy covered that. Personaly if I happen to come off as rude etc it is usualy not intended that way.


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## Elder the Dwarf (Jan 25, 2012)

Haven't been on for a while, but I had been noticing the sort of attitude you guys are talking about before.  It didn't affect me personally but if there have been more problems I'm glad something is being done.  Oh, and this is my first time noticing, so congrats on the Moderator status, Sidekick!


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## Steerpike (Jan 26, 2012)

I think it is important to maintain perspective on all sides of a discussion. I haven't seen any trolling on these forums, which is nice. I can't think of anything I have seen that I felt was personally out of bounds, but I'm not likely to. I've been on forums where the level of rancor, sarcasm, and flaming was truly off the charts, and I view this place as welcoming and friendly. These forums also do not come across as elitist or insular, where only a select group are welcome. I had seen that elsewhere.

The trouble in any forum is balancing moderation among the various personalities. It isn't good to moderate according to the standards of the most easily offended person in the group, or of those who are almost impossible to offend. For the record, I haven't found anything troubling in my time here. Sure, there have been a few snarky exchanges, but they appear to have resolved themselves. Seems like a good community.


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## Legendary Sidekick (Jan 31, 2012)

Elder the Dwarf said:


> congrats on the Moderator status, Sidekick!


Thanks, and welcome back.


Steerpike, this is definitely a great community. I agree with the gist of your message completely.

The thing we need to watch out for is exactly what you mentioned, that some people are more easily offended than others. Whether _I_ think someone is too easily offended or not doesn't change the fact that that person may have been genuinely offended. In a case like that, it's best to just let the "snarky exchange" drop.

As an inner-city high school teacher, if a student calls me a ******* ******, the insult rolls off my back. I can take insults, idle threats, and even the average punch. I prefer not to, however, and I shouldn't have to.

This is in no way directed at you, Steerpike. I'm just making a general statement that we need to give others a break if we're aware that we're offending them. I totally agree when you say this is a good community. I truly believe that most of the posts that caused offense to some were not meant to offend.


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## Steerpike (Feb 19, 2012)

Legendary Sidekick said:


> This is in no way directed at you, Steerpike. I'm just making a general statement that we need to give others a break if we're aware that we're offending them. I totally agree when you say this is a good community. I truly believe that most of the posts that caused offense to some were not meant to offend.



Thanks for the post, Legendary Sidekick. Sorry it took so long to reply - this thread kind of fell off my radar!

I agree with you entirely. I know, personally, that I do not wish to hurt someone else's feelings, and if I found out I did I would take the steps necessary to rectify it. I don't see people around here with bad intentions, and that is a welcome change from many sites.


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## Black Dragon (Feb 19, 2012)

It's been a month since this concern was first brought up.  We'd like to hear everyone's thoughts as to whether or not the situation has improved:

http://mythicscribes.com/forums/suggestions-feedback/2446-has-forums-tone-improved.html

This discussion will be carried over to that thread.


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