# Hunting Question



## Androxine Vortex (Jul 9, 2012)

In the opening scene in a new novel I am working on, there is a hunter who is trying to kill a deer. He is going be using a throwing axe (Wait...What? No spear? No Bow? i know but it's his preferred weapon...He's an orc!) to kill it so he has to be closer because he's not using a bow. So what would be the minimum distance you think he could be at without the deer detecting him? 

And is it spelled ax or axe because when I type, "axe" the spellcheck says it's wrong.


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## Saigonnus (Jul 9, 2012)

I myself have managed to get within about 15 feet or so before the deer looked up... depends on whether or not the orc is smart enough to be upwind (very necessary and basically meaning the wind passes the deer before the orc) Also it will depend alot on the underbrush and growth. If there are alot of bushes etc... it means more concealment. It also depends on the "domestication" of the deer (i.e. used to having orcs or whatnot trampling through the trees). I guess it will depend mostly on how smart the orc is to how close he can get.

Also, i'd question the motives of the orc. If he is smart enough to hunt, he's probably smart enough to use the most efficient tool for the job, and for hunting, a throwing ax probably isn't that efficient. Orcs may not use bows generally (according to most sources) preferring more mundane tools like spears, etc... but whose to say they wouldn't employ snares or traps as a way of catching prey so all they'd need to do is herd the deer to where the trap is and hope it falls into it.


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## Telcontar (Jul 9, 2012)

I agree that you should change the weapon. A thrown weapon that spins (ie, axe, knife, etc) isn't good for hunting because a slight mistake in judgement will result in a harmless hit. Clonking a deer in the flank with the haft of a throwing axe gets you no venison.

I suggest you have the orc use a throwing spear, instead. I vaguely recall that some cultures have hunted deer with thrown spears. They can be thrown further with accuracy and greater success. You still retain the lack of a bow and the use of a weapon that relies more on strength (assuming that is what you were going for).

If you do use a spear, then I believe the effective range for a human throwing a spear (actually, pilum in this case, which is heavier) is around 20 meters. Adjust accordingly if your orcs are stronger and more accurate with thrown weapons.


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## Steerpike (Jul 9, 2012)

Androxine - my advice, no disrespect intended to the posts above, is to stick with your vision of the character and not to change him into how someone else envisions him. You seem to have a pretty clear idea that he prefers to use an axe. I don't think there is anything out of bounds about establishing that he is good enough with an axe that he can throw it at a deer and take the animal down. I agree with all of Telcontar's observations about why an axe, in general, would be a less desirable weapon. But by showing your orc using one in just this manner, what you've really done is established that he is so good at using an axe that the efficiency differences between an axe and a spear just don't exist for him. I don't think readers will have a problem with that.


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## Butterfly (Jul 9, 2012)

It's Ax for America, and Axe for Britain (I think)


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 9, 2012)

I come from a family of deer hunters that go as primitive as possible. They only archery hunt (recurve & longbow only) & many of them make their own bows and arrows. So I can give you some idea of how difficult it can be to kill a deer with a minimal set up.

First things first... In my opinion the early posters are correct. If you write a hunter killing a deer with a throwing axe, a ton of readers will tune out right then & there. It just isn't realistic. Even in a fantasy setting, actions have to be at least plausible.

Onto the actual hunting preparation:
1) Most primitive style hunting is more effective from a tree or from a blind. We always hunted from tree stands. We would camouflage the area behind us with brush to break up the outline of our bodies. If done well it can be extremely difficult to see someone obscured in this manner. 

2) Deer are color blind animals but they have an acute sense for motion. Even when camouflaged and set with a proper backdrop, your motions must be slow and steady. The best time to draw & shoot is when the target looks the other way or drops its head to feed. Other animals present can complicate the issue.

3) Scent is an issue (maybe even more so for an Orc). Deer have incredibly acute olfactory senses. Its not always possible to be down wind when tree hunting. The way winds shift, you will not be able to ensure this. Archery hunters often employ masking scents. People have used them for ages. Typically, it is the urine of other animal (fox is particularly good as they are non- threatening to a deer but alert). At certain times of the year hunters use the urine of female deer that are in estrous. Sex can be a powerful motivator to ignore danger.

4) Sound. Deer have very good hearing. An axe being thrown will have a sound which will cause the animal to jump & run. It is a slow weapon in comparison to a bow. I have missed deer because a bow string twanged on my arm. The reaction of a deer is a downward ducking and then bolting (usually). It is also noisier in flight. This makes an ax a very bad hunting choice.


All the above being said, this is a fantasy setting. You can overcome anything with creativity... Just make it plausible. 

I hope this helps. At the least, maybe it gives some perspective.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jul 9, 2012)

Thanks everyone. I admit even while writing the rough draft for this scene I wasn't sure about using an ax. I have heard stories about people killing deer with throwing knives before so I mean it wouldn't be impossible, just maybe not the best idea. I'm really not sure if I want him to use an ax or a spear. I agree 100% that a spear would be the better choice but my character is incredibly stubborn and does everything his own way. Again not sure if I'm going to change it or not.

Okay well the scene I have so far is that the deer is drinking from a brook and the orc is sneaking up to it. He's walking on naturally smooth trail of rocks to muffle his sound instead of crunching leaves. Would 20-25 yards away be plausible to throw a spear or a throwing ax keeping in mind that orcs in my setting are stronger than humans?


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## Steerpike (Jul 9, 2012)

> Tomahawk
> The tomahawk was another hunting tool that was extremely valuable. In fact, it was a staple weapon not only of the Iroquois, but of most Native American tribes. Tomahawks were lightweight and resembled the modern day ax. As a result, they could be thrown at prey and were ideal for hunting deer.


 Iroquois Hunting Tools | Entertainment Guide



> Tomahawk
> The tomahawk is, basically, the Native American version of an axe. Hatchet-like, it served a range of purposes, including as a hand weapon. Sometimes, it was tossed at an opponent, a fighting technique still popular in reenactments because of the weapon's enduring popularity (though not all American Indian tribes and people prominently used the tool or weapon). For the Iroquois, the tomahawk was used in hand-to-hand combat, or as a thrown weapon from horseback or long distance. Traditionally, the Iroquois made their tomahawks out of stone (head) and wood (handle).


 Traditional Iroquois Weapons | eHow.com

There are a number of other links regarding not only the tomahawk, but other thrown axes, as well as references to axes for hunting (I came across two references to Vikings in just a brief search, for example). There are also hunter's forums with discussions on hunting with axes and thrown axes (which apparently can be a lot more reliable than a knife).

In any event, even if people in the real world never used them for such, there is nothing "unrealistic" in having your orc hunt with an axe, particularly in a fantasy setting. I've seen people throw axes at wooden targets with great accuracy and really do a lot of damage to the target. The idea that you couldn't do the same with a deer makes no sense.

Again, by using an axe all you are doing is establishing that your orc character has enough skill with the weapon to be able to hunt effectively with it. You don't want to make decisions about your story based on the idea that readers might arbitrarily have a problem with those decisions. Using an axe for hunting isn't impossible and doesn't violate any laws of the universe. There are any number of reasons your character might use one, including that it might be the only weapon he has access to, or, as you hint, it is simply the weapon he is best with. 

No reason not to go forward with it if that is a distinctive aspect of your character.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jul 9, 2012)

Thank you Steerpike. You I think you went the extra mile there with those links, haha. I'm no hunter so if I were to use a throwing ax (or even any other weapon) where exactly would be a good place for the weapon to hit to kill? I mean it's not a gun so it has to be a pretty good and hard hit. If the orc would have to be about twenty yards away to avoid detection would the ax lose enough momentum to not kill the deer? And do you think that twenty yards is too close especially for an orc (strong scent)

I'm kind of disappointed that I don't know this stuff as I am part native American
ANCESTORS Y U NO HELP?


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## Steerpike (Jul 9, 2012)

That I do not know. I'm not a hunter either  While I was looking at the links, I think I remember someone mentioning that tomahawks could be thrown accurately and with force at about twenty feet in competitions. One guy claimed to hit prey at fifty feet, which is just shy of your twenty yards, but I don't know if the claim is true. 

In any event, it seems like having a strong orc in a fantasy story take down a deer at twenty yards is within the realm of plausibility. Someone else will have to give you a good idea of where to hit the animal. The flank presents the biggest target, of course.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jul 9, 2012)

Thank you for your help. Hopefully T.Allen.Smith will help out again, he seems to know what he's talking about.


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## Steerpike (Jul 9, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> Thank you for your help. Hopefully T.Allen.Smith will help out again, he seems to know what he's talking about.



Yes. People who have done a lot of hunting should be able to give you pretty good insight here. I suppose the choice of weapon may change the best place to target the animal.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jul 9, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> Yes. People who have done a lot of hunting should be able to give you pretty good insight here. I suppose the choice of weapon may change the best place to target the animal.



Yeah I mean with an arrow or spear I would imagine it sinking in a lot deeper than an axe would too.


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## Caged Maiden (Jul 9, 2012)

just a thought.  If you want to show his stubbornness, maybe he uses his axe and misses, bashing the deer in the hindquarters with a handle and it bounds away...


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 9, 2012)

I looked at those links... Although I appreciate your research SP, from my experience, I think it's flawed. No offense meant but the likelihood of any native using a tomahawk when a bow was readily available is slim. For every piece of info I saw about hunting big game with axes I saw 5 refuting it. 

Anyway, don't want to get into a big debate on that because,in the end, SP is correct you can do anything you want with fiction. My only advice on that point would be to give reasons why this character is extraordinarily skilled with an ax. Then it's plausible.... Plausibility is all you need. Being realistic isn't really necessary unless you're doing historical fantasy.

To answer your question about body targets, I'll point out that I'm not extraordinarily skilled with axes and therefore never used one to kill any game. However, I can give you some information that might help narrow your choices.

If aiming from above (a tree or tall hill) a thrown ax would likely be targeted at the spinal column. The head would work but it's a small area. The spine offers a long target. A successful hit would immobilize the deer if the spine were severed. The spine lays close enough to the surface that the short bit (bit is an ax blade) would be able to dig deep enough to do enough damage. When we hunt with archery we target either side of the spine in the chest behind the shoulders with the goal being a hit on lungs or heart. An arrow severing a spine does the trick though.

When targeting a deer's side, you really want to hit the sweet spot right under the shoulder blade. The shoulder blade is thick, hard bone there and houses the heart and lungs. When using a bow & arrow we circumvent the shoulder blade by waiting until the foreleg is stepped forward. This exposes the vital organs. Whether or not an ax would penetrate deep enough .... I dunno. But potentially it could in your story. Maybe put a long spike on one side???

You never really aim at a deer from the front (unless using a rifle from distance). They're just going to see you.

Shooting a deer from the rear can be done. The anus offers a direct path to the vital organs. Gross & messy though.... Hunters typically avoid this because having bodily waste spill through the carcass can ruin meat very quickly. Then what's the point of the hunt? Obviously not a path an ax could take.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jul 9, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I looked at those links... Although I appreciate your research SP, from my experience, I think it's flawed. No offense meant but the likelihood of any native using a tomahawk when a bow was readily available is slim. For every piece of info I saw about hunting big game with axes I saw 5 refuting it.
> 
> Anyway, don't want to get into a big debate on that because,in the end, SP is correct you can do anything you want with fiction. My only advice on that point would be to give reasons why this character is extraordinarily skilled with an ax. Then it's plausible.... Plausibility is all you need. Being realistic isn't really necessary unless you're doing historical fantasy.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much kind sir. Just one more question: Taking into account that the character is an orc, what distance do you think would be appropriate for throwing a weapon at a deer? Thanks for your help!


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 9, 2012)

Again I'll preface this by saying I've never done it.... I saw the same info Steerpike referred to about axe throwing that stated competitive distances are 20 feet. I would defer to that as a standard and then throw on some additional distance (not too much) to account for your characters extraordinary strength & skill with an ax.


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## Steerpike (Jul 9, 2012)

T. Allen Smith:

Yes, in looking for more convincing sources, the information is sparse and appears to vary widely among contemporary accounts by Europeans first observing American Indians and their use of tomahawks (and it looks like the name 'tomahawk' has been applied to a wide variety of weapons, and there is some disagreement over what all was meant by it prior to the European-style hatchet that was adopted when colonists first came to the new world.

I did find one apparently credible reference to use of tomahawks by throwing:



> The tomahawk is known as widely as the Indian, and the two names have become apparently inseparable. They are made of steel, brass, or iron. The choicer articles are surmounted by a pipe-bowl, and have a perforated handle, that they may answer the double purpose of ornamentation and use....It is worn in the girdle, and behind the back, except when in actual battle. They used it in close combat with terrible effect, and also threw it with unerring certainty at distant objects, making it revolve in the air in its flight.



That is from Morgan, _League of the Iroquois_, 11, Book 3, pp 15-16 (1904).

Morgan also references stone tomahawks that predate the type mentioned above. He does not, from what I could see, mention the use of the tomahawk in hunting (though I suppose from his statement on throwing one might surmise that they could well have been used as such). I do not know the ultimate source of Morgan's information.

Other reports I found indicated the presence of tomahawks, but did not list them among the weaponry of the American Indians, implying that they served non-weapon purposes (maybe ceremonial; maybe as tools; maybe both).

Perhaps the use depended on the geography of a given population and what they did or did not have available. In any event, although the links I provided before refer to them as hunting weapons, I don't see any academic sources that specifically refer to such a use. 

It is interesting, however.


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## Jabrosky (Jul 9, 2012)

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I looked at those links... Although I appreciate your research SP, from my experience, I think it's flawed. No offense meant but the likelihood of any native using a tomahawk when a bow was readily available is slim.


If I recall correctly, Native Americans invented bows relatively recently in their history (prehistory?). Before then they would have used probably spears or spear-throwers, though I can see a sufficiently large throwing ax inflicting damage too.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Jul 9, 2012)

Jabrosky said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly, Native Americans invented bows relatively recently in their history (prehistory?). Before then they would have used probably spears or spear-throwers, though I can see a sufficiently large throwing ax inflicting damage too.



It may have been used in some capacity. I'll not argue that point further. My comment relates to using it on a deer specifically. They are very quick animals with keen senses.... A buffalo? Okay maybe.


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## Taro (Jul 9, 2012)

Not being from the Americas, i would have thought that the native Americans were keen hunters. quite and stealthy, so being able to sneak up on a deer and using a spear thrower would be a large possibility, but would depend on what you want them to use.


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## psychotick (Jul 10, 2012)

Hi,

I've actually thrown axes at targets. Single handed and double. The benefit of having friends who live on farms and have strange hobbies. For an axe I would say twenty feet is about the best range I could biff one and have any hope of hitting a target. They are awkward to use and quite heavy. Also roughly one chance in three the handle will hit the target and the axe will bounce off. I'll assume that your orc is stronger than me and better skilled, so maybe thirty feet.

Now its a question of how to get within thirty feet of a wild deer. That I haven't done. My understanding is that they are flighty creatures. So yes, maybe creeping up on one from down wind so they can't smell you, and then throwing the axe from concealment. Chances are if a deer spots the movement as you throw, they'll bolt, and throwing an axe requires a big swing action.

Spears being lighter and more aerodynamic can travel further, and having a point instead of an edge, will bite deeper into flesh. However if you hit with an axe it will do a lot of damage.

Perhaps your orc could take a trick from the cavemen. Chase the deer down until they are against say a cliff wall, and the only way they can escape is to run straight past you. Or chase them into a water body so that the water slows them down. Or chase them off a cliff and forget the axe.

Cheers, Greg.


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## SeverinR (Jul 10, 2012)

Steerpike said:


> T. Allen Smith:
> 
> Yes, in looking for more convincing sources, the information is sparse and appears to vary widely among contemporary accounts by Europeans first observing American Indians and their use of tomahawks (and it looks like the name 'tomahawk' has been applied to a wide variety of weapons, and there is some disagreement over what all was meant by it prior to the European-style hatchet that was adopted when colonists first came to the new world.
> 
> ...



I am no expert, but the tomahawk is still a type of ax, good for chopping, even if not a weapon or hunting tool.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jul 10, 2012)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've actually thrown axes at targets. Single handed and double. The benefit of having friends who live on farms and have strange hobbies. For an axe I would say twenty feet is about the best range I could biff one and have any hope of hitting a target. They are awkward to use and quite heavy. Also roughly one chance in three the handle will hit the target and the axe will bounce off. I'll assume that your orc is stronger than me and better skilled, so maybe thirty feet.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the post! I was worried that the ax might not get deep enough since it's not like a spear. I was thinking of having it sever the deer's spinal column so from what you said I suppose that's plausible.

And I can just imagine a big orc chasing a deer off a cliff flailing his arms around shouting, "Blaaarrrgghh!!!"


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## Taro (Jul 10, 2012)

Androxine Vortex said:


> Thank you for the post! I was worried that the ax might not get deep enough since it's not like a spear. I was thinking of having it sever the deer's spinal column so from what you said I suppose that's plausible.
> 
> And I can just imagine a big orc chasing a deer off a cliff flailing his arms around shouting, "Blaaarrrgghh!!!"



hehe i giggled a little with that image


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## Androxine Vortex (Jul 10, 2012)

Taro said:


> hehe i giggled a little with that image



Who wouldn't?


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## Lawfire (Jul 12, 2012)

If an axe is the preferred weapon, why would the orc not use the "climb up a tree and drop on it" method?

Deer tend to focus on the ground, and therefore tree stands are an effective tactic. If sitting relatively still, and being relatively scent free, most deer would not recognize the threat from above. A pile of apples or acorns below would help to draw the deer to the perfect spot.

I think the biggest factors for the skittishness of deer would be familiarity with humans (humanoids) and hunting pressure. The more predators feeding on the deer, in a given area, the more skittish they will be. If the deer in question are unfamiliar with humans they may not immediately recognize them as a source of danger. Or, if their experiences with humans have been non-confrontational or beneficial they would be more likely to let a human get close.


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