# Golem Strength



## Vanya (Feb 26, 2012)

If a golem made of mud were to hit a female (unarmored) in the chest what kind of damage would that do to her ribs/chest cavity? The swing would be equivalent to pushing someone out of the way, not a full angry swing, and the female would be caught unaware.


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## Codey Amprim (Feb 27, 2012)

It's going to knock her around enough to stagger her at the least. It's hard to tell these kind of things, and I was hesitant to post this.

There's a few things to consider about golems. Regardless of the material, it's going to weigh in at a heavy amount. A mere bump could feel like a person just tried to run into you if the golem doesn't know it's own strength. This also depends on the method of controlling of the golem; either the golem is controlled by the concentration of it's creator through a constant link, or it obeys commands given by its master, given that it has a will of its own; then again, you could have a totally different controlling mechanism for the golem, but I just listed the two that I'm most familiar with.

Anyways, the golem, or whatever is controlling it, needs to know its own strength in any given situation. Why? They can't necessarily "feel," can they? Unless, perhaps, that it's a flesh golem, but you're talking about a mud golem.

If I knew the exact circumstances in which the action was taking place I could give you a better guess as to what I'd say would happen. If it's in the middle of a heated battle, I wouldn't expect the golem to be very gentle, unless it was given direct orders to do so and not take heed to the fighting. If it were a different setting, without any threat of danger, I don't see why the golem couldn't be gentle enough to give a little push. They're usually quite robotic, in the sense that when they are given an order, they simply execute it without deriving from it to deal with complicating variables that would alter the course to the objective if they were a true living being.

It's all in how much the golem understands its own might. Very iffy. Maybe your golems are highly intelligent, perhaps with a free soul inside (free meaning that it wasn't forced to occupy the body and do against its bidding or obey commands unwillingly) that controls it, and it knows what it's doing to the fullest. It all depends on how they're used and the mechanics behind them.

That's a lot for a simple question, and I apologize... But I just wanted to point out the things that need to be considered in any situation with a typical golem.

Hope I helped! Cheers


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## Ravana (Feb 27, 2012)

The biggest thing it's going to depend on is… well, on how strong the golem is in the first place. 

Consider: size may imply greater force, and material may imply greater force–but you're also talking about a material that can't normally move _at all_, regardless of what other factors might apply. Which, unfortunately, makes the answer basically "anything you want it to be." Much of its "strength" might be consumed simply in moving its own body; what's the excess available? At what speed can/does it act? No matter how big or strong it is, if its motions are slow, it isn't going to be causing any harm.

You didn't mention size, by the way. Either height or build: both will affect mass. (I'm guessing you intended a humanoid configuration; if not, there are even more complications.) A skinny, four-foot-tall golem might reasonably be expected to exert far less force than a nine-foot-tall one built like a weightlifter–though again not necessarily, since it's magically animated: it's entirely possible that all its "strength" comes from the magic, and has nothing whatsoever to do with size or composition. Alternately, being magically animated might mean it requires _none_ of its "muscle" for this, permitting it to put all its mass behind anything it does. Perhaps the spell that animates the golem always produces a certain strength X, at which point size is only going to be a factor in obtaining leverage. 

Nor, for that matter, did you mention what state the "mud" is in… if it's all squishy, it may exert minimal force against much of anything that's solid, unless applied at a high enough velocity.

At any rate, there's no reason for a "push" from a golem to do any more damage than a "push" from anyone or anything else: just because it _can_ push harder doesn't mean it _will_ push harder. Presumably, a golem tasked with opening its master's door on a regular basis would exert no greater force than anyone else would in opening a door, for example. If the golem "knows" how much force is necessary to move something of roughly that mass out of the way, that's how much it will use. Contrarily, if it is an unintelligent automaton, it will use the same force it _always_ uses to move _anything_ out of the way… however much (or little) that may be.

Barring the possibility it's receiving specific orders at the time, that is.

I wouldn't worry too much about whether or not the golem can "feel"–since it also shouldn't be able to _see_.  Nor hear. Nor, for that matter, to keep its balance… and this might cause it to move particularly slowly, since normal biped movement involves losing one's balance at every step. (That's why it takes babies so long to work out the process: they need to figure out they're _supposed_ to fall forward–and then to figure out how much.) If it isn't to be constantly breaking things, I'd assume it would require some form of tactile feedback mechanism. 

By the way, what difference does it make that it's shoving a "female" out of its way?

-

[Since this is a question dealing with detailed physics and physiology, I figured it was okay to leave it here rather than encouraging a move to World Building.]


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## Vanya (Feb 27, 2012)

Actually, it doesn't just shove the female out of the way, she has something it wants and shoves her away to get it, killing her. I didn't want the scene to be too gruesome to the point of ridiculous, but I want the hit hard enough to be instant death, so there's no witnesses as for what the golem took. I planned on the golem being about the size of a full grown male, just bulkier.


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## myrddin173 (Feb 27, 2012)

While this will need verification I don't think a push, no matter how forceful would cause "instant death" the after effects would. (like the saying "it's not the fall that kills you but the sudden stop at the end). Also if the golem is trying to kill the woman, which wasn't clear from your first post, I would look into what happens to people that come to sudden stops.  Probably not to gruesome but there will be blood...

Also flesh golems?  Gross!  Oh wait isn't that basically Frankenstein's Monster?


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## Codey Amprim (Feb 27, 2012)

Vanya said:


> Actually, it doesn't just shove the female out of the way, she has something it wants and shoves her away to get it, killing her. I didn't want the scene to be too gruesome to the point of ridiculous, but I want the hit hard enough to be instant death, so there's no witnesses as for what the golem took. I planned on the golem being about the size of a full grown male, just bulkier.



Not trying to sound rude, but you should have given this information at the beginning.  The more we know, the better we can aid you.

Anyways, now that we have a clearer sense of what this golem is, I think we can give a better answer. Since this was a man-sized golem made of mud, I think it would require a hell of an effort to kill the woman with one push; I'm talking like this thing needs to swing his arms at an inhuman speed to create enough of an initial impact and force to effectively kill the said woman. Also, considering that this thing is made of mud, it is likely that the golem will suffer some consequence to its actions, chiefly because mud is quite brittle - especially if its wet, but I doubt that is the case because it would more than likely become useless due to the loss of its body material before it could do a whole lot. But then again, perhaps magic is holding it all together.

Now if this golem were to be twice or three times the size of a man, think of the mass and overall hugeness of this thing. Its arms would be near the size of tree trunks, massive enough to slam this poor woman into the ground in a beautiful mess of gore and bone fragments.  But you _did_ say that you didn't want it to be gruesome beyond the point of ridiculousness, so you can merely have it bash her out of the way, and she hits her head off something. The bigger the golem, usually, the stronger.

...And while we're on the matter of changing this thread from PG-13 to R...



myrddin173 said:


> Also flesh golems?  Gross!  Oh wait isn't that basically Frankenstein's Monster?



The kinds I know? Not quite, but I suppose there are a few of those around. 

Think of hundreds of freshly harvested body parts horridly put together into a living, breathing hulk of flesh and bone. These things are utterly horrifying. Now imagine yourself having to fight one of these towering behemoths of gore that's charging after you, screaming in the voices of those poor souls used to make it.

I would say that it would be a bad day to be an adventurer.


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## Vanya (Feb 27, 2012)

Codey - I'll remember to thoroughly explain in any future research threads I may have.  I think I may go bigger. It will mesh well with how I want the body found. 

Play Alice: Madness Returns. They have something similar to a flesh golem, except it's baby doll parts and an oily substance. 

Thanks for all the help!


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## SeverinR (Feb 27, 2012)

2d10+7, not sure what the THAC0 is. (I know, I'm showing my age.)

A 2 foot tall mud doll wouldn't do much damage striking with the small appendage, but a 20 ft tall mud monster could slam pretty hard, probably 20-30 lb fist.

To do damage it would have to cross into hit, not push.  A car pushes a person at 2-3 mph, it hits a person and causes damage when going faster and the person is not ready for it.  The large creature could mean to push, but actually knock the person sideways with some force.
Basically look a height, weight, mass and hardness of striking appendage,  versus the same of the defender and judge how much damage the flesh and bone would face.
(If I built a mud golem, I would cover attacking appendages with rocks to make it hit hard.)


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## Ravana (Feb 27, 2012)

Vanya said:


> Actually, it doesn't just shove the female out of the way, she has something it wants and shoves her away to get it, killing her. I didn't want the scene to be too gruesome to the point of ridiculous, but I want the hit hard enough to be instant death, so there's no witnesses as for what the golem took. I planned on the golem being about the size of a full grown male, just bulkier.



The same basics still apply: since it's a magical creature, its strength may have nothing whatsoever to do with mass or composition. I would not, however, describe something as a "push" if you intend it to be an immediately fatal blow. 

As for what _kind_ of damage you want: simply caving in the sternum would be more than sufficient. There wouldn't even be exterior signs of damage–so no gore there. Apart from that, I can't think of an "instant" death blow from a strike to the torso that wouldn't involve considerable external damage (barring a knife hand coming up below the sternum: I'm assuming the golem isn't a martial arts expert…), though of course you don't need to describe it even if there is.

Rapid and inevitable death, as opposed to "instant," is a bit more flexible. Ribs could be smashed inward, penetrating lungs (and potentially the heart, though that's far less likely); death would follow fairly soon after, though it would involve coughing up a lot of blood in the interim. Below the rib cage, the strike could rupture various internal organs, leading to death in a reasonably short period of time (how short depends on which organs). In all cases, shock is likely to disable the victim, making it unlikely she'd be able to do anything to aid herself, at which point it's simply a case of no one finding her before she expires. Or not being able to do anything about it even if they do. A secondary spinal injury, from the victim bouncing off something, would seal the deal even faster.

Or the golem could just hit her in the head instead of the torso and snap her neck… which is a far better choice if you want the cause of death to remain anonymous: conceivably, anybody could do that. Let's face it: even in an age where forensic science is minimally developed, it wouldn't be _too_ hard to determine that a person had experienced massive blunt trauma to the torso and yet displayed no evidence of being struck by a weapon. So witnesses or no, odds are someone will be able to relate the death to an agency other than human or accidental. Especially if the "mud" golem leaves some of itself on the victim.…

And if you want the agent to eventually be discovered, I've just provided your investigators with all the clues they'll need.


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## Vanya (Feb 27, 2012)

Wow, you all have helped a lot. With how much you know about damage and kills...it's almost scarey! I'm glad I'm not on your bad side.


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## myrddin173 (Feb 27, 2012)

Vanya said:


> Wow, you all have helped a lot. With how much you know about damage and kills...it's almost scarey! I'm glad I'm not on your bad side.



Just don't ask _how _ we know. :insertevillaughhere


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