# Plot problems



## Ireth (Jun 16, 2012)

I'm having issues with the plot of my WIP. Once the quest the four protagonists are on gets going, it seems just like "they meet these people and this happens, move on. They meet that person and this happens, move on." Lather, rinse, repeat until the climax. There are some characters/things that recur in important places, but for the most part it's just one Wacky Wayside Tribe after another. Really not the plot I want -- I had enough of that in the prequel, where it was only the B-plot rather than the A-plot. I'm not sure I can generate enough emotional drama between the protags to intersperse the physical conflicts or other encounters nicely and keep it from being boring or repetitive. I could give an outline of the plot if that would help. Any thoughts?


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## Butterfly (Jun 16, 2012)

Have them meet a witch hunter who stalks them thinking one of them's a witch, or a cannibal stalking them from some remote cave, tower, thing... something like that.

You need conflict, obstructions, tension. Don't make it easy for them to finish this quest.


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## Ireth (Jun 16, 2012)

I'm not sure those specific ideas would work for this story, but the idea is good. I'm sure some Fae would take an interest in one of their own leading a group of mortals through Faerie.

There is going to be a lot of tension between the characters, since none of the humans really like their Fae guide all that much, and the Fae guide wants to get on the mortals' good side for the sake of his paternal affection for the daughter of one of the mortals, who is part of the group. This chafes the nerves of the girl's real father to no end. The problem is, as I said, showing that tension without being repetitive about it for ~300 pages.


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## ThinkerX (Jun 16, 2012)

I suggested this (or something like it) before, but:

have them encounter Fae 'traders' or 'smugglers' who cross over to our world for plastics, fabrics, modern metals, that sort of thing to trade for other items in Faerie proper.  Have a couple of these types dogging their trail, trying to decide if the interlopers are merely 'customers' or out to divulge trade secrets (like that most of these valuable goodies are actually stolen from thrift stores and rubbish bins).  At least some of the other encounters your group has would also be wondering about this, or acting as pawns for the smugglers.

(Besides, if I remember right, one of your characters spends the entire trip in a terrycloth bathrobe - given the rigors of outdoor travel, at the end of a few weeks, it would be more like a terrycloth bikini.)


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## Queshire (Jun 16, 2012)

The description you gave us makes me think of the super successful manga One Piece. In it they basically go from island to island beating up whichever bad guy was currently threatening that particular island. What keeps it from being boring is the interesting characters they meet, the wide variety of different situations they encounter even if they're based on the same "beat up the bad guy" formula, the fact that a good number of  the threats they face have a personal connection to them, and several elements that recure throughout, namely the world goverenment, navy, and the blank century.

There's a lot you can do from even a basic template.


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## Ireth (Jun 16, 2012)

ThinkerX said:


> I suggested this (or something like it) before, but:
> 
> have them encounter Fae 'traders' or 'smugglers' who cross over to our world for plastics, fabrics, modern metals, that sort of thing to trade for other items in Faerie proper.  Have a couple of these types dogging their trail, trying to decide if the interlopers are merely 'customers' or out to divulge trade secrets (like that most of these valuable goodies are actually stolen from thrift stores and rubbish bins).  At least some of the other encounters your group has would also be wondering about this, or acting as pawns for the smugglers.
> 
> (Besides, if I remember right, one of your characters spends the entire trip in a terrycloth bathrobe - given the rigors of outdoor travel, at the end of a few weeks, it would be more like a terrycloth bikini.)



I do like that idea, but I'm not sure it would suit this story. Seems a bit out of place to suddenly bring into the second half of a duology. If it were a longer series I could do more with it, or I could make another series for it. (Also the robe is polyester, not terrycloth, but that's just nitpicking. XD And she does have pyjamas on underneath.)



Queshire said:


> The description you gave us makes me think of the super successful manga One Piece. In it they basically go from island to island beating up whichever bad guy was currently threatening that particular island. What keeps it from being boring is the interesting characters they meet, the wide variety of different situations they encounter even if they're based on the same "beat up the bad guy" formula, the fact that a good number of  the threats they face have a personal connection to them, and several elements that recure throughout, namely the world goverenment, navy, and the blank century.
> 
> There's a lot you can do from even a basic template.



I've heard of that manga, but never seen it. I'll see what I can do with the idea though. There are a couple of Fae with personal connections to the mortals, but one is their guide and the other is going to serve her own purpose in the plot; she's not one of the encounters I'm worried about. I've been considering bringing back a minor character from the prequel, but that might be tricky due to the nature of the Fae Courts. The prequel takes place when the Winter Court is in power, and the WIP takes place during the summer; Fae from one Court don't typically roam around when the other is in power.

The fact that it's summer instead of winter is a factor in itself -- the Summer Court are generally much nicer to humans than the Winter Court (with a few exceptions), so it might not be a matter of beating up bad guys at every turn. No bad guys = no conflict, unless the mortals do something stupid to piss the Fae off. And I don't want them to just traipse around Faerie helping Fae in varying states of distress at every turn, either; I'm having enough trouble getting a unicorn into that position to establish a debt that will later be repaid at a critical moment. I've already used the "unicorn falls down a hole and the virginal heroine helps it out again" idea, so that's a no. I can't think of any reason the Fae would want to harm a unicorn, especially the Summer Court. They've been known to kill mortals just for damaging living trees.


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## ThinkerX (Jun 16, 2012)

> I do like that idea, but I'm not sure it would suit this story. Seems a bit out of place to suddenly bring into the second half of a duology. If it were a longer series I could do more with it, or I could make another series for it. (Also the robe is polyester, not terrycloth, but that's just nitpicking. XD And she does have pyjamas on underneath.)



If I remember correctly, it was a fae lord who sent them on this quest to begin with - one with the ability to travel between Faerie and earth.  So...have him involved in the smuggling racket up to his elbows, with the further implication he's been at it for a while - have little incidents from the first novel that 'click' into place with this revelation (like why he was in the habit of going to earth at all).  Have a few items obviousely from earth scattered around his manor, for example, things that 'went out of style' on earth decades earlier.  Drop a few hints that he see's the reason for the mission (vanished daughter? if I remember right) as being involved in said cross dimensional smuggling.  The 'other' smugglers encountered by the heros would belong to a rival group.


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## Ireth (Jun 17, 2012)

ThinkerX said:


> If I remember correctly, it was a fae lord who sent them on this quest to begin with - one with the ability to travel between Faerie and earth.  So...have him involved in the smuggling racket up to his elbows, with the further implication he's been at it for a while - have little incidents from the first novel that 'click' into place with this revelation (like why he was in the habit of going to earth at all).  Have a few items obviousely from earth scattered around his manor, for example, things that 'went out of style' on earth decades earlier.  Drop a few hints that he see's the reason for the mission (vanished daughter? if I remember right) as being involved in said cross dimensional smuggling.  The 'other' smugglers encountered by the heros would belong to a rival group.



Some issues with this. It was a King (two, technically) who set them on their quest; neither of them had ever gone to Earth, but the son of the Winter King did. The prince was out to claim a bride, no more and no less. The reason for the quest hinges on the climax of the prequel, and the consequences of the actions taken by the Winter princess, which have turned her into a fugitive. (Won't tell what because MAJOR spoilers, but there is no smuggling at all.) Though the heroine of the prequel does get a good look at the interior of the castle wherein the prince lives, there is nothing modern there -- that would require extensive editing of an already finished manuscript, which I don't want to do unless my publisher or agent requests it.

I don't want to sound like I'm bashing your idea, when really I love it. But I've said multiple times before that it begs to have a story of its own, not to be shoehorned into a work in progress, especially a half-finished duology.


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## Queshire (Jun 17, 2012)

Well if it's unusual for a winter fae to be out in summer, then why they're there can be a big plot point. Also Fae are typically depicted as having something of an inhuman mindset, not sure if it applies to your world, but having to deal with a fae whose "help" was harming could also be a plot point.


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## Ireth (Jun 17, 2012)

Ooh, yes, that's very helpful! ^^ I do try to portray my Fae as inhuman in their morals and mindsets, so that's perfect.


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## ALB2012 (Jun 17, 2012)

Give them something to get around. Doesn't have to be a conspiracy. Big unexpected monster, get them REALLY lost and then they ar arguments, even they cannot go the way they intended due to - road is blocked, pass has collapsed...whatever. They have to take an unexpected route.  
Or they find something unexpected. Old ruins, strange item, subspace anomoly which they just have to investigate, hell even an injured creature who isn't what it seems.

Something which makes them stop. Perhaps they find a badly injured monster or whoever the "bad guys" are. Someone wants to help, the others don't. They find a tomb of person X, someone wants to go in an loot, someone else thinks it's graverobbing.

I don't know the characters but they surely can't all agree on everything. Or even someone is wrongly accused. Someone looses an item and it is found amongst the belongings of another, did they steal it? Was it simply dropped and picked up, was is planted there.

They will get to where they need to be, just make it sound its a roundabout route- if they get lost, argument of "we should have taken left path" etc.
 Just a few ideas.


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## Helen (Jun 17, 2012)

Ireth said:


> ...it seems just like "they meet these people and this happens, move on. They meet that person and this happens, move on." Lather, rinse, repeat until the climax. There are some characters/things that recur in important places, but for the most part it's just one Wacky Wayside Tribe after another. Really not the plot I want -- I had enough of that in the prequel, where it was only the B-plot rather than the A-plot. I'm not sure I can generate enough emotional drama between the protags to intersperse the physical conflicts or other encounters nicely and keep it from being boring or repetitive. I could give an outline of the plot if that would help. Any thoughts?



I'm not seeing change anywhere.

The reason stuff happens is to slowly move away from the older positions.

That's where the themes come in.

I'm not going into the cave to dig out the treasure because it's golden and valuable, I'm really going into the cave to learn something, to be provoked and so on.

You'll end up changing your characters as people. 

I get the feeling that that's your problem. That you're ignoring the psychological side.

The root of the emotional drama stems from their opposing psychological positions.


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## ALB2012 (Jun 17, 2012)

Well don't worry I just worked out I have to almost completely rewrite what i have done so far for book 3. I had this really complex ending which I am now convinced does not work, and consequently the whole lead in doesn't either. Fortunately I think I have a back up plan, which was sort of what i had originally anyway


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## Ireth (Jun 17, 2012)

@*ALB2012*: Good ideas.  They're most definitely going to get lost, as even their guide doesn't know which way to go to find the fugitive princess they're looking for. That'll cause some arguments. XD Plus the fact that they're being tracked by the Kings to make sure they actually find the princess will heighten the tension, as they all want to avoid finding the princess for her own sake.

@*Helen*: Firstly, hi. I don't think I've seen you much around the forums before.  Secondly, I like your advice. I do plan on changing my characters, so the psychological side isn't completely ignored -- the mortals and their guide do change their feelings about one another over the course of the story -- the mortals will learn to trust their guide and not be so hostile to him, as he really is a decent but misguided individual; and the guide will accept that his paternal affection for the daughter of one of the mortals can never work out how he wants. Much of the emotional tension comes from the conflict between the guide and the mortal girl's real father, who feels that the guide is a threat to his relationship with his daughter.


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## Penpilot (Jun 17, 2012)

Sounds like there isn't a build up of tension and plot points, a gradual climb to to-- well--- the climax. For me, the acts in my story usually have specific types of scenes in them and they build towards a big transition where something...well big... happens before moving into the next act. Here's a small basic break down, maybe it will help you in think about the way things are fitting and flowing together for your story.

Act -1

- Intro to major characters and seeing them in their ordinary life before the story really starts. 
- Inciting incident
- Break into act two. The move from the ordinary world of the character's normal life and into the story world. This is a distinct transition point where the character has to choose to enter the story world. It's where Luke Skywalker chooses to go with Obi-Wan and they end up in the famous cantina scene.

Act 2 part 1 -

- With the characters now in the story world, this is what some screen writers call the fun and games section of a story. It's where most of the fun stuff that ends up in movie trailers comes from. In a road movie it's where the characters are on the road and meet with all the fun and interesting characters. It's where a thing called Promise of the Premise is fulfilled. Promise of the premise is fulfilling the basic expectations of what the story has promised, just by the basic type of story it is. Star wars promises that Luke will tangle with the Empire. This is where he meets Han Solo and they fight Tie fighters and Star destroyers. This is where "These are not the droids you are looking for" scene happens and where Ben Kenobi whips out his sabre. 

- Break into Act 2, the mid-point. The mid-point of a story aka the mid-point climax is a incredibly important part of a story. It's either a spectacular success or a spectacular failure. If it's a success it's obviously a false success and the same with failure. It's the event that spins the characters into the second part of the story. It moves  away from the fun and games and it's back to the story/plot and moving that ahead, hard. For Star wars this is when the Millennium Falcon get tractor beamed into the star destroyer putting the heroes in a terrible position. 

Act 2 part 2 - 

- If you have a successful mid-point, this is where the fall comes. The bad guys regroup, drop the kid gloves, and stop playing nice.
- If you have a failure mid-point, this is where the heroes regroup, lick their wounds, and put their nose to the grind stone with a plan to get them out of failure. Star wars they shut down the tractor beam, rescue the princess and make their escape.

- This section is also where the heroes deal with their doubts, and occur losses (Ben Kenobi). 

- break into Act 3 - The heroes now have everything they need to win. In Star wars they have the Princess and the plans for the Death star.

Act 3

- This is where the heroes take what they've learned and figure out a plan on how to defeat the bad guys. This is where the Rebel Alliances figures out the big flaw in the Death Star's design.  

- This is where the heroes try to execute their plan but it all goes to shit and they have to think on the fly to find a way to true victory. For Star wars this is when nobody can hit that damn thermal exhaust port square and Luke takes his run at it. All feels lost until he hears Ben understands and trusts that he has to use the Force and it's victory. 



Well that's it. The major transitions and where I think stuff goes. I don't know how much it may help but it's here. Hope it helps.


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## Ireth (Jun 17, 2012)

That's a really helpful breakdown, Penpilot! I'll be sure to put it to use. ^^


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## Jessquoi (Feb 21, 2013)

I am definitely going to use this as a guide. I'm sure there are many stories where some of these parts are swapped around. But it definitely shows the importance of the rises and falls for the characters. It gives the story a flow, like waves for a ship to ride on.


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## MongrelChuck (Feb 21, 2013)

Look at how many of the individual groups are truly 'necessary'.  Could some of the groups be consolidated?  Is there an opening for expansion to allow narrative elements from point B to be introduced at point A?  Really this sort of thing is best solved by a good look over everything and finding those points that just read a little off, then go from there.


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## wordwalker (Feb 21, 2013)

You could also look at it in terms of the scenes' effects. When characters are traveling, most encounters might not really connect to each other, except for things like:


Attitudes. Who's the group's leader, and/or whose plan do they trust? What does each of them want, and why? Then, how does each encounter change those?
Skills. Is anyone struggling to master some magic, or just to learn to fight (or to not fight, if trickier methods are called for)? How's each time help them along?
Injuries. Who gets hurt and needs help --or killed-- when, and how's that affect the next time?
News and clues. How much do they learn about the situation out there... and they realize their enemies have learned about them?

Think of each encounter as much in terms of how it affects the same ongoing things as how it's something separate.


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## Addison (Feb 22, 2013)

So it sounds like your story starts of good then is either rising at barely a slope or just flat lining before peaking at the climax. Been there. :-(
Take a look at who your characters meet and why it's important, if at all, to meet them. Heck in a fantasy they don't have to meet actual people. They could be lost in a forest and meet a talking tree, a brownie who won't let them out of a pit. Heck they could meet an air elemental. So try thinking not so much as "who do they meet?" but more of "what do they meet?" That way the situation in which they meet these other characters could produce points of conflict or rising tension which will pick your story up. 

For the record, that's why I like writing fantasy more than anything. The cast of characters is practically limitless.


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## Ireth (Feb 22, 2013)

Addison said:


> Take a look at who your characters meet and why it's important, if at all, to meet them. Heck in a fantasy they don't have to meet actual people. They could be lost in a forest and meet a talking tree, a brownie who won't let them out of a pit. Heck they could meet an air elemental. So try thinking not so much as "who do they meet?" but more of "what do they meet?" That way the situation in which they meet these other characters could produce points of conflict or rising tension which will pick your story up.
> 
> For the record, that's why I like writing fantasy more than anything. The cast of characters is practically limitless.



Oh, of course. ^^ None of the characters my core group meets will be human (at least not fully human), just Fae. Redcaps, Kelpies, Daoine Sidhe, possibly a half-goblin, even a unicorn or two.


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## Addison (Feb 23, 2013)

Then, friendly suggestion, use the nature of those fae to twist around how they meet your main characters. The circumstances, the setting (which can be an obstacle itself it you do it right) and everything else about them.


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