# Escaping the "Tolkien Trap"



## P.A. Trujillo (Mar 16, 2020)

I love J.R.R. Tolkien. He is an incredible writer and an extremely creative world-builder. It was his writing that inspired me to turn my creative energies to fantasy writing. 

That said...

Do you find yourself defaulting back on Tolkien's pre-established tropes and race archetypes? I know I do. How do you keep your depictions of tried-and-true fantasy races/tropes original? 

Personally, I'm trying to go straight to the source: the original mythology. I don't want my dwarves to look like Peter Jackson's interpretation of Tolkien's dwarves; I want my dwarves to have customs and architecture that's reflective of the Germanic/Norse cultures from which the myths and legends originated.


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## Yora (Mar 16, 2020)

Originality by itself is pointless. Especially when it comes to worldbuilding. In the end, a story is a story, and what matters is what characters are doing and saying, and how they are doing it. Creating new creatures and magic systems that never were used before don't really help anything in that regard.
I find to have very few Tolkienian influences in my writing, which I think is because I don't really read any fantasy in that style. In the Sword & Sorcery branch, writers usually reference earlier works that predate The Hobbit. They also often get somewhat derivative in their own way, but there are no orcs, dwarves, and glowing swords to be found anywhere.


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## Devor (Mar 16, 2020)

I’m of the opinion that just using fantasy races that are about human like they work as character options in a video game is already drawing on Tolkien. Whether we use elves and dwarves is kind of a small point by comparison. Whether the elves are particularly different or the dwarves particularly Scottish is also immaterial to me.

If they are humanoid and have human intelligence and form nations and are presented to readers as equals to human then we’re in the kind of setting that follows the Middle Earth model.

And that’s okay.

Fantasy doesn’t need to look like that. But it can.

The thing is, making your own races or adding your own twist looks original on the surface but probably isn’t, at least to me. It’s the same mold.

And the mold is fine. But “being original” means breaking the mold. And that’s much harder than it sounds.


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## Gospodin (Mar 16, 2020)

Nope. But, I was never an LotR boy. I'm a DUNE boy. I write mainly Science Fantasy, but I'm coming from the Science side, crossing over to the Fantasy side, not the other way around. Also, I haven't "gamed" since the collapse of 1983.

My stories sometimes smell a little like Anne McCaffrey or Marion Zimmer Bradley. Early, strong influences. If there are tropish underpinnings showing through the fabric, they come from that tradition. I've never written a story set in Faux Northern Medieval Europe and I have next-to-no contact with the race archetypes of Man, Elf, Dwarf, Halfing, Orc, etc.


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## WooHooMan (Mar 16, 2020)

I think sticking your own interests and personality into your setting is how you make it different.  Linguistics and British folklore were Tolkien’s interests but they’re not mine.  His scholarly approach to things is his personality but it’s not mine.  He liked the English countryside and simple living but I don’t.
I like his stuff but I don’t like the stuff it’s made out of.

Also, I believe that avoiding his characteristics for the sake of originality is a bad idea.  It’s always better to decide what you want to write before you decide what you don’t want to write.
If you put your own personality in your work on the deepest level, it will be original.


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## Maker of Things Not Kings (Mar 16, 2020)

I don't think much about any other author's interpretations of any race, fantasy or otherwise, when I set out to tell a story. I'm not worried about an accurate portrayal by anyone else's standard (though I DO give some thought to cultural characters that I may draw upon) 

 Our world's myth and folklore is absolutely filled with so many fantastic variations on fae, elves, trolls, dwarves, nature spirits and a host of other mythical creatures.There is so much out there to pull from that has barely been touched by modern writers that I never found it necessary to allow my characters to take on too much of anyone else's interpretation (unless it fit my story).  Being from Slovak/Russian ancestry, i tend to draw a lot from that part of the world but I never stick to the tried and true aspects, or even the names of those stories when I develop fantasy characters for my own use.   

I think, if you began with the Germanic/Norse foundation and then, instead of allowing Tolkein or anyone else to slide on in, consider everyday people you know or may have encountered in life, and how some of their little tics, mannerisms, sayings and idiosyncrasies might be plucked, exaggerated and molded to fit with your story's races or cultures, you'll end up with something that isn't quite like anything else out there.    

 Good luck!


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## P.A. Trujillo (Mar 16, 2020)

Yora said:


> Originality by itself is pointless. Especially when it comes to worldbuilding. In the end, a story is a story, and what matters is what characters are doing and saying, and how they are doing it. Creating new creatures and magic systems that never were used before don't really help anything in that regard.
> I find to have very few Tolkienian influences in my writing, which I think is because I don't really read any fantasy in that style. In the Sword & Sorcery branch, writers usually reference earlier works that predate The Hobbit. They also often get somewhat derivative in their own way, but there are no orcs, dwarves, and glowing swords to be found anywhere.



I see what you mean; I guess that's why Tolkien wrote a story for this languages; because there's no real point in creating a new language if there's no one to speak it, even if they're fictional. 

I've yet to encounter any fantasy fiction that isn't even partially inspired by Tolkien. What books/writers would you suggest?


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## P.A. Trujillo (Mar 16, 2020)

Devor said:


> I’m of the opinion that just using fantasy races that are about human like they work as character options in a video game is already drawing on Tolkien. Whether we use elves and dwarves is kind of a small point by comparison. Whether the elves are particularly different or the dwarves particularly Scottish is also immaterial to me.



That is precisely what I'm trying to avoid in my fantasy world: humans should absolutely NOT be interchangeable with any other species any more than a cat is interchangeable with a racoon. Yes, they're both mammals, but the way they think, their instincts, etc. should be worlds different. Anyway, doesn't it seem logical that any sapient species would have the same level of intelligence as a human? Why wouldn't they?


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## P.A. Trujillo (Mar 16, 2020)

WooHooMan said:


> I think sticking your own interests and personality into your setting is how you make it different.  Linguistics and British folklore were Tolkien’s interests but they’re not mine.  His scholarly approach to things is his personality but it’s not mine.  He liked the English countryside and simple living but I don’t.
> I like his stuff but I don’t like the stuff it’s made out of.
> 
> Also, I believe that avoiding his characteristics for the sake of originality is a bad idea.  It’s always better to decide what you want to write before you decide what you don’t want to write.
> If you put your own personality in your work on the deepest level, it will be original.



My problem with works that are derivative of Tolkien is that they are only skin-deep. It seems like some of the tropes that Tolkien pioneered are cliches now because hack writers don't have the originality to blaze their own trail. 

But I believe that you are right about the author's interests and characteristics being interwoven into their writing, thus making it their own. That I can agree on.


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## P.A. Trujillo (Mar 16, 2020)

Maker of Things Not Kings said:


> I don't think much about any other author's interpretations of any race, fantasy or otherwise, when I set out to tell a story. I'm not worried about an accurate portrayal by anyone else's standard (though I DO give some thought to cultural characters that I may draw upon)



See, I have to disagree with you here. I can't stand it when authors invent aspects of fantasy races from scratch, because they get even farther and farther away from the original myths from which they originated.

Example: island-dwelling dwarves. NO. Why? Because dwarves are an invention of Germanic cultures, and thus have no real place in other parts of the world (unless there is a mythological equivalent in said part of the world). 



Maker of Things Not Kings said:


> Our world's myth and folklore is absolutely filled with so many fantastic variations on fae, elves, trolls, dwarves, nature spirits and a host of other mythical creatures.There is so much out there to pull from that has barely been touched by modern writers that I never found it necessary to allow my characters to take on too much of anyone else's interpretation (unless it fit my story).  Being from Slovak/Russian ancestry, i tend to draw a lot from that part of the world but I never stick to the tried and true aspects, or even the names of those stories when I develop fantasy characters for my own use.



Again, I personally do not like to draw from interpretations of other authors because their connection to the original mythology is dubious at best. I prefer to draw the bones of my interpretation from the original myths and legends and from there I can take creative liberties as needed. 



Maker of Things Not Kings said:


> I think, if you began with the Germanic/Norse foundation and then, instead of allowing Tolkein or anyone else to slide on in, consider everyday people you know or may have encountered in life, and how some of their little tics, mannerisms, sayings and idiosyncrasies might be plucked, exaggerated and molded to fit with your story's races or cultures, you'll end up with something that isn't quite like anything else out there.
> 
> Good luck!



I like this advice. I definitely try to draw inspiration from the people I know, the characters and plots I see and read in movies, tv, books, etc.


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## WooHooMan (Mar 16, 2020)

P.A. Trujillo said:


> My problem with works that are derivative of Tolkien is that they are only skin-deep. It seems like some of the tropes that Tolkien pioneered are cliches now because hack writers don't have the originality to blaze their own trail.
> 
> But I believe that you are right about the author's interests and characteristics being interwoven into their writing, thus making it their own. That I can agree on.



I try to give them the benefit of the doubt and think that they're interests align so much with Tolkien that there's bound to be similarities.  Or they don't know how to bring themselves into the genre which is more likely.  Or, even more likely, they think Tolkien's stamps are what makes the genre what it is.  They just can't imagine a different kind of fantasy, I guess.  They probably don't read anything outside the Tolkien family of fantasy literature.

I definitely don't think it's laziness and I'm not sure if I would chalk it up to lack of originality.  More of a lack of concern for originality.  Which is hardly a problem.
Maybe they just don't want to blaze their own trail.


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## Prince of Spires (Mar 17, 2020)

The thing is, as soon as you include a dwarf, elf or orc in your work people will start seeing Tolkien influences in your work, no matter how original you make your dwarfs or elves. You can only get rid of that by doing something so different with them that you are probably better off calling them something else in the first place. 

If you mention a dwarf, people will have an image in their head. He's probably short, broad, on the grumpy side, with a beard and an axe, preferring to live underground. You can deviate from that a bit. I've got a dwarf without a beard (and another character remark on the fact with some grumbling about it being a city trend for young kids....). Or you can have the character wield a sword or dislike living underground. 

But people will still first picture the short bearded guy with a love for gold if you mention a dwarf. If your dwarfs are 2m tall, green, live on a cloud and they hate gold and metals then yes, people will not see any Tolkien influence in there. But they will also be utterly confused and you're better off calling them something other then dwarf.


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## Insolent Lad (Mar 17, 2020)

I would have to say that the archetypical dwarf, for me, came not from Tolkien nor even Germanic myth, but from Disney's _Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs_. Say 'dwarf' to me and I'm likely to picture Grumpy, Sleepy, and the rest of the gang, simply because I encountered them long before any others of their kind.


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## Devor (Mar 17, 2020)

Prince of Spires said:


> The thing is, as soon as you include a dwarf, elf or orc in your work people will start seeing Tolkien influences in your work, no matter how original you make your dwarfs or elves.



Since you mention it, it’s a little odd that elf and dwarf have become the standard words when history has dozens of words for these concepts. Just the idea that we’re using these words and not the others is kind of Tolkien.

As an aside, we say Tolkien, but it’s as much about D&D and Warhammer as it is Tolkien. D&D in particular is built around the idea of taking elves and dwarves and dropping them into your own customized campaign setting, which is great for gaming because, you know, character options.


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## D. Gray Warrior (Mar 17, 2020)

I never read LotR and only vaguely remember watching the movies because I saw them as a kid, so I only remember a handful of scenes at best.

I think I was more indirectly influenced by Tolkien by drawing from works that were directly influenced by him.

However, most of the fantasy I like is anime and JRPGs, so there I also subconsciously take influence from there. 

Lately, I've been more interested in science fantasy and therefore combing futuristic technology with things like magic, castles, knights, etc.

You can also always look outside of Europe for inspiration, as the majority of fantasy is based on Medieval Europe.


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## elemtilas (Mar 17, 2020)

P.A. Trujillo said:


> Do you find yourself defaulting back on Tolkien's pre-established tropes and race archetypes? I know I do. How do you keep your depictions of tried-and-true fantasy races/tropes original?
> 
> Personally, I'm trying to go straight to the source: the original mythology. I don't want my dwarves to look like Peter Jackson's interpretation of Tolkien's dwarves; I want my dwarves to have customs and architecture that's reflective of the Germanic/Norse cultures from which the myths and legends originated.



I find the irony rather delicious here!  After all, you're trying to avoid "Tolkien's pre-established tropes" by going straight for the mythology; yet, where did Tolkien nick, like, 99% of his material from? Norse mythology. Finnish mythology. English mythology.

It's my opinion, and probably quite the minority opinion, that the only true way to avoid Tolkien's á_nything_ is to veer away from the mythology and fully embrace the pointy-eared forest dwelling stereotypes of the post-Tolkien fantasists.


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## WooHooMan (Mar 18, 2020)

elemtilas said:


> I find the irony rather delicious here!  After all, you're trying to avoid "Tolkien's pre-established tropes" by going straight for the mythology; yet, where did Tolkien nick, like, 99% of his material from? Norse mythology. Finnish mythology. English mythology.
> 
> It's my opinion, and probably quite the minority opinion, that the only true way to avoid Tolkien's á_nything_ is to veer away from the mythology and fully embrace the pointy-eared forest dwelling stereotypes of the post-Tolkien fantasists.



No, I think you got to go further back.  Go straight to the roots of fantasy: dreams.  That’s where myths, fairy tales, folklore and all that junk started.  It’s the original fantasy from before even language existed.
Dip into your subconscious and slip whatever you find into your work and it’s bound to be unique, original and fantastic.  Though probably nonsensical but, y’know, you can fix that in editing.


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## JunkMonger122 (Mar 18, 2020)

I know I'm new here but I'd like to offer the method I use to make my creatures original. What I do is take the core traits of a fantasy/mythological creature and just twist it. For example, the core traits of an Elf are: absolute jerk, loves nature, good at magic, feminine appearance, pointy ears, and possibly Fae. For my Elves lets say the culture focuses on perfectionism, this gives them a reason to be jerks and supports the notion of them being Fae by giving them a justified reason to outsiders not like outsiders. "Loves nature" and "good with magic" can be combined into a sort of druidic tradition which can complement their culture. Perhaps the root of their perfectionism is an attempt to emulate nature? The "Elves look like girls" thing could be as simple as different beauty standards. Maybe long hair is a status symbol, it is in my world. You could leave out the pointy ears if you want to and still have a solid foundation with this. What's more this process of deconstruction and reconstruction can be applied to just about anything!


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## WooHooMan (Mar 18, 2020)

OberonLordofSylva said:


> I know I'm new here but I'd like to offer the method I use to make my creatures original. What I do is take the core traits of a fantasy/mythological creature and just twist it. For example, the core traits of an Elf are: absolute jerk, loves nature, good at magic, feminine appearance, pointy ears, and possibly Fae. For my Elves lets say the culture focuses on perfectionism, this gives them a reason to be jerks and supports the notion of them being Fae by giving them a justified reason to outsiders not like outsiders. "Loves nature" and "good with magic" can be combined into a sort of druidic tradition which can complement their culture. Perhaps the root of their perfectionism is an attempt to emulate nature? The "Elves look like girls" thing could be as simple as different beauty standards. Maybe long hair is a status symbol, it is in my world. You could leave out the pointy ears if you want to and still have a solid foundation with this. What's more this process of deconstruction and reconstruction can be applied to just about anything!


That’s not a twist, deconstruction or reconstruction on the convention.  You’re just giving an in-universe justification for the convention that you yourself defined.


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## P.A. Trujillo (Mar 18, 2020)

OberonLordofSylva said:


> I know I'm new here but I'd like to offer the method I use to make my creatures original. What I do is take the core traits of a fantasy/mythological creature and just twist it. For example, the core traits of an Elf are: absolute jerk, loves nature, good at magic, feminine appearance, pointy ears, and possibly Fae. For my Elves lets say the culture focuses on perfectionism, this gives them a reason to be jerks and supports the notion of them being Fae by giving them a justified reason to outsiders not like outsiders. "Loves nature" and "good with magic" can be combined into a sort of druidic tradition which can complement their culture. Perhaps the root of their perfectionism is an attempt to emulate nature? The "Elves look like girls" thing could be as simple as different beauty standards. Maybe long hair is a status symbol, it is in my world. You could leave out the pointy ears if you want to and still have a solid foundation with this. What's more this process of deconstruction and reconstruction can be applied to just about anything!



What in the everloving heck makes you think that all elves are jerks??? That is patently absurd. Where in Norse mythology is that characterization? True, elves were often characterized as malevolent demonic beings, but just as often they're beneavolent angelic creatures. It's an invention of modern writers (and an asinine invention, I might add) that elves think that they're high-and-mighty and better than mortal creatures. Guess what? They ARE better; at least, miles more powerful.


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## Prince of Spires (Mar 18, 2020)

I just had a realisation reading this topic which made me laugh. But Tolkien's real elves actually aren't Tolkien elves.

The Tolkien elf trope is a mix of D&D and lord of the rings elves. Those are the nature loving, girly, whimsical creatures people think of.

Real Tolkien elves in the Silmarillion are very different from that. They're badass, headstrong craftsmen who went to war against a God. So, if you want to know how to do different elves, read Tolkien...


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## WooHooMan (Mar 18, 2020)

P.A. Trujillo said:


> What in the everloving heck makes you think that all elves are jerks??? That is patently absurd. Where in Norse mythology is that characterization? True, elves were often characterized as malevolent demonic beings, but just as often they're beneavolent angelic creatures. It's an invention of modern writers (and an asinine invention, I might add) that elves think that they're high-and-mighty and better than mortal creatures. Guess what? They ARE better; at least, miles more powerful.



I think think it was Warhammer that popularized the idea of jerk elves and it makes sense that modern writers would want to portray a “superior race” as looking bad since the idea of “superior race” is something modern readers would find abhorrent.



Prince of Spires said:


> They're badass, headstrong craftsmen who went to war against a God.



It amuses me how offended Tolkien would find you calling Morgoth “a God”.

I think you guys are getting pedantic.  “Tolkien elves” mean the elf archetype that descended from Tolkien.  The humanoid RPG type of elves.  The beautiful long-lived humanoids with an affinity for magic and an obsession with their own hype.
That whole lineage of elves in fiction is what people mean by “Tolkien elves”.

As oppose to the cutesy Keebler Christmas fairy elves or the ethereal otherworldly elves of Norse mythology.

But debating terminology won’t really get you any closer to finding a new spin on an old idea.


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## JunkMonger122 (Mar 18, 2020)

Sorry. I was just sharing the way I try to make a creature. What I meant by "elves are jerks" was that elves usually have pride and/or xenophobia as a fatal flaw. I wasn't trying to insinuate that all Elves are jerks, I was just trying to shorten a lengthy paragraph.


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## elemtilas (Mar 18, 2020)

WooHooMan said:


> No, I think you got to go further back.  Go straight to the roots of fantasy: dreams.  That’s where myths, fairy tales, folklore and all that junk started.  It’s the original fantasy from before even language existed.
> Dip into your subconscious and slip whatever you find into your work and it’s bound to be unique, original and fantastic.  Though probably nonsensical but, y’know, you can fix that in editing.



Well, sure! That's what I do by nature. (And Tolkien by admission did the same on occasion as well, with his Dream of Atlantis.)


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## JunkMonger122 (Mar 18, 2020)

WooHooMan said:


> That’s not a twist, deconstruction or reconstruction on the convention.  You’re just giving an in-universe justification for the convention that you yourself defined.


I'm sorry can you elaborate on that? I don't really get what you're trying to say.


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## WooHooMan (Mar 18, 2020)

OberonLordofSylva said:


> I'm sorry can you elaborate on that? I don't really get what you're trying to say.


Well, you’ve heard of “a briefcase full of money”?  That’s a cliche.
You can’t say “the briefcase has money in it because someone robbed a bank and put the money in the briefcase” and then call that a deconstruction or twist or whatever.  That’s just explaining why the cliche exists in-universe.

A twist would be if characters are trying to get the briefcase without knowing there’s money in it.  Or the money itself isn’t what they’re after.  Or it turns out the case was empty all along.


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## JunkMonger122 (Mar 18, 2020)

WooHooMan said:


> Well, you’ve heard of “a briefcase full of money”?  That’s a cliche.
> You can’t say “the briefcase has money in it because someone robbed a bank and put the money in the briefcase” and then call that a deconstruction or twist or whatever.  That’s just explaining why the cliche exists in-universe.
> 
> A twist would be if characters are trying to get the briefcase without knowing there’s money in it.  Or the money itself isn’t what they’re after.  Or it turns out the case was empty all along.


I see now. Thank you, I'll avoid using the terms I used now.


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## Aldarion (Mar 19, 2020)

As others had already said, do not try to "emulate" anyone. As a kid, I tried emulating Tolkien due to my obsession with Lord of the Ring. _I ended up rejecting all the worlds I thus created as worthless garbage._ Only when I went back to the source did I do something actually worth the effort. And even then, I ended up with approach significantly different, and thus the result significantly different, from Tolkien's. Tolkien's interests lay in linguistics, folklore and mythology; mine are history and mythology. There is overlap, and thus also some similarity in the worlds thus created; but also enough difference that I will not end up being just another "Tolkien clone" (if anything, my world is more similar to what was done by Martin and Turtledove, but again with differences as I drew on Roman, Byzantine, Hungarian, Croatian and Ottoman history as opposed to British and Byzantine history, respectively).

And that is my advice: do not worry about escaping "Tolkien trap". Do not worry about being different. Turn inwards - towards your own interests, personality and so on - and you _will_ be different.



Prince of Spires said:


> Real Tolkien elves in the Silmarillion are very different from that. They're badass, headstrong craftsmen who went to war against a God. So, if you want to know how to do different elves, read Tolkien...



They also have beards...


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## Snowpoint (Mar 30, 2020)

If you do use classic races. Call them what they are.   

If your whole point is to put your own spin on them, just give them a new name. 

Like the example earlier of an Island dwelling dwarf. You are already so far removed from the classic idea, just give them a new name and let them be their own thing.


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## D. Gray Warrior (Mar 31, 2020)

Snowpoint said:


> If you do use classic races. Call them what they are.
> 
> If your whole point is to put your own spin on them, just give them a new name.
> 
> Like the example earlier of an Island dwelling dwarf. You are already so far removed from the classic idea, just give them a new name and let them be their own thing.



One of my defunct settings switched around elves and dwarves so that the dwarves lived in forests and the elves lived underground. The dwarves also had pointy ears. The only thing that had in common with standard dwarves were that they were short and had beards.

The elves were otherwise ordinary elves, just underground.


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## Darkfantasy (Mar 31, 2020)

I think people care more about the story of the characters overall and I hate giving opinions like this because who am I to judge others on what they write? But since you asked I'll be 100% honest. There will always be an audience for those stories, it just wont include me. If I want to read things influenced by Tolkien, I just read Tolkien because I can never get bored of those books and no one can match him, for me writing about those beings and that setting. 

Those beings existed long before Tolkien made them his own. But I still associate elves, dwarves, dragons and Orcs so much with him that I find it hard to read other people's versions or copies. Fantasy is possibly the Genre where you are the least limited to what you write about,and people limit themselves to what's been done time and time again. I have found myself rolling my eyes every time I read a synopsis that clearly draws from Tolkien to the extent it's obvious. Maybe what these people need to do is acknowledge their love for him, then more on and draw from other things? More and more people are drifting of the status Que for fantasy and doing something new. So read the new stuff. People's work becomes similar when they just keep reading the same thing and never branching out or opening their minds to new possibilities. There are so many amazing mythical creatures from all cultures that don't get used to their full potential. Wizards are cool but there are other magical people that remain mysterious and open for exploration. 

I love elves for their personalities and ethereal qualities. I like Dwarves for theirs. Dragons are just awesome and I don't know anyone who thinks differently. Look at what you love about those beings. Write a list. Then cross out the qualities you like that define elves. Choose three qualities from your list for each that are left. Then begin thinking up your own races giving them these qualities. Keep changing and developing them until they barely look like an elf any more. Is my only advice if you still want to stick to those sorts of things. Maybe what you need is a total change. Just to break it. Read a wider variation of novels in different genres. Try combining them. Take a crime thriller, add fantasy and you have the Dresden Files. Just think outside the box more. 

But in the end, you'll either have to branch out and write something new or accept what you like to write and own it! I hope this is helpful and all the best.


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## Avery Moore (Apr 1, 2020)

In the world I'm currently working on, I'm using a pretty basic Tolkienesque type world... But about 1,000 years into the future, where almost all the magic has died out. Humans have basically bred all the other races out of the picture. Orcs and goblins have been hunted to extinction. Elves and dwarves have become so interbred with humans that you can barely tell the difference. Basically, we screwed the awesome magical world up so bad that all that's really left are undead things like ghosts and vampires, or man-made things like golems and gargoyles.

In general though, I'd say why use the Tolkien world when there's so many awesome magical races to choose from? Who needs elves and dwarves when we've got dryads, nymphs, fauns, centaurs, banshees, selkies, succubi, sirens, and that's just the European stuff. China has all kinds of awesome mythical beings.  Not to mention Egypt. Those guys are creative. ^_^


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## The Finxi (Apr 17, 2020)

I have experienced this also. There was nothing really I could do but focus on my intent and on my honest self reflections. Maybe you could focus on one aspect. Like what did I really want to have for creating this fantasy story? For me, it was to systematize fantasy to the limit, to the extreme. Yes there were still hints of Tolkien in the systems, but I intended mine to be known for and be centered around the systems and not the Tolkien elements. I worked through perfecting everything, and it naturally turned out to be a stand-alone aspect -reborn as it's own fantasy 'genre'. What was your take of the monotony of fantasy? Did you want to approach it to "study" it? Did you see yourself as a discoverer, an explorer, a linguist, or perhaps a 'clerk'? This was just my take on it.


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## Gurkhal (Apr 18, 2020)

Can't say that I've fallen into the Tolkien Trap to my knowledge. But then again I think that reading beyond the fantasy genre and perhaps also try stories set outside of a Western setting could help to show you how to fly.

I mean one of the most influential things I ever read was material on Tekumel which really showed me that its possible to fly.


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## D. Gray Warrior (Apr 18, 2020)

There's so much history outside the Medieval era, both before and after it.

I'd personally like to see more Bronze Age fantasy as it would be perfect for a world of myths and fantastical creatures. 

Tolkien drew from mythology, and most other authors just copied his races. 

One of my worlds was your standard Medieval European setting, but it had more of a JRPG influence since those were my main inspirations and I never actually read a standard fantasy novel before that point.


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## WooHooMan (Apr 19, 2020)

Looking through this thread, I’m going to make a proposition: what if the Tolkien trap isn’t a problem anymore?

The internet and people generally being more worldly and open to new things have caused the average fantasy fan’s pool of influences to become much wider.  Plus there are more vehicles for the genre today (it used to be limited to books but now we have movies, video games, tabletop games, etc.) and it is much easier to get media from outside of the west, especially from Japan.

So maybe the Tolkien trap was an issue in the 80s/90s and after the LotR movies came-out but perhaps the trend is already waning due to the natural evolution of the genre.  Meanwhile, there’s currently some new and more harmful trend getting going that is not being address because the bunch of us are concerned with a trend that’s basically on its way out.

I remember when I was younger, I would hear old people complaining about how malls were turning people into shopping zombies, video games turn kids antisocial and tv addiction was a serious concern.  But none of them could have predicted what the internet would become.  So today; malls are basically dead, video games are a social activity through online multiplayer and tv is basically on its way out thanks to streaming.

Going through this thread, I don’t get the impression that the current or next generation of fantasy writers would have much of an issue with avoiding the Tolkien standard.


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## Patrick-Leigh (Apr 20, 2020)

Personally, I look at all kinds of takes on the various fantasy races, then I decide which things I would like to keep the same and which things I'd like to change.  I also take into consideration things like the nutritional needs of their bodies and alternative ways for them to use certain attributes that they generally are depicted as having.

For example, with my Orcs, I took the conquering army aspects of Tolkien's rendition of them and the size and skin color of World of Warcraft Orcs, tweaked their appearance a bit here and there so they were not a copy-paste job of either type of Orc, then thought about what sort of things the average Orc in my setting would need to live in relatively good health and comfort.  I concluded that they would need more food due to their greater size and muscle mass, so that led me to the decision to make them capable agrarians, since I concluded there was no way they could sustain a large population solely by stealing food from other people.  So, my Orcs are talented at cultivating hybrid crops with higher yields as well as animal husbandry.  (This also means they can breed better war mounts.)  Then I considered how to handle their military forces differently than what I've seen in other story settings.  So, instead of savage barbarians, my Orcs are well-disciplined, well-organized legionnaires who are a lot like the Roman Empire in terms of efficiency.

Dong some research on how the Romans did things, I learned that one of the reasons they built so many roads was to keep their soldiers busy and out of trouble during times of peace.  That got me thinking about the other ways that my Orcs could be using their superior strength.  I realized that they would probably do the same thing and have their soldiers improve old roads, build new ones, construct dams and levies, and do all sorts of work on infrastructure to keep them occupied.  Then it hit me that a lot of the roads my Orcs built and improved are probably still in use.

My point in all this is to show that you don't need to go to a lot of trouble to come up with new takes on the classic fantasy races.  You just use some basic logic, throw in a dash of historical, agricultural, and scientific knowledge, and do the math.  You'll come up with all kinds of interesting ideas if you take that approach.  If you want to stick to the way these races were depicted in mythology, that's fine, but I don't see why you should limit your options too much.  It's not a crime to make your Dwarves sailors because any society that lives around water is going to need people who can manage boats of one kind or another.  You want them to live underground?  Fine, but there are bodies of water underground, and you can make them as big as you like and have them sail on those.  Like I said, you can restrict yourself as much as you want, but it's best to give yourself at least some flexibility.  Most of all, though, try to challenge yourself and have fun while you're at it.


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## elemtilas (Apr 20, 2020)

WooHooMan said:


> Looking through this thread, I’m going to make a proposition: what if the Tolkien trap isn’t a problem anymore?




I honestly don't think it's been a real problem for quite a while. I think it was certainly an issue in the 1970s and 80s. Maybe 90s. (Mind you, that didn't stop me from reading scores of fantasy series at second hand!) I think fantasy as a genre has changed grown quite a lot. The early writers who seemed to draw so heavily on Tolkien have given way to many newer writers who while drawing inspiration don't try to fit their works into a mold.


Now, I think the natural consideration that follows from your proposition, as I see it, is: _what if there never really was a Tolkien Trap to begin with?

_
It's my opinion, but it seems that when we get down to it, JRRT wasn't really writing "fantasy" as we know the genre today. Or rather, fantasy writers since Tolkien aren't writing in the same genre of fairy story that Tolkien was working with. He is said to have been a pioneer of fantasy, but I wonder if his peioneership isn't one of inspiration rather than practical exemplar.



> The internet and people generally being more worldly and open to new things have caused the average fantasy fan’s pool of influences to become much wider.  Plus there are more vehicles for the genre today (it used to be limited to books but now we have movies, video games, tabletop games, etc.) and it is much easier to get media from outside of the west, especially from Japan.



True that. Plus the whole concept of self publishing, art hubs, writing hubs and so forth. And it goes both ways. It's much easier for those of us who would be extremely unlikely to even crack the door at MegaPublishers to find an audience of more than just ourselves to read what we've come up with.



> So maybe the Tolkien trap was an issue in the 80s/90s and after the LotR movies came-out but perhaps the trend is already waning due to the natural evolution of the genre.  Meanwhile, there’s currently some new and more harmful trend getting going that is not being address because the bunch of us are concerned with a trend that’s basically on its way out.



Could be. What new and harmful trend are you thinking of? 



> I remember when I was younger, I would hear old people complaining about how malls were turning people into shopping zombies, video games turn kids antisocial and tv addiction was a serious concern.  But none of them could have predicted what the internet would become.  So today; malls are basically dead, video games are a social activity through online multiplayer and tv is basically on its way out thanks to streaming.
> 
> Going through this thread, I don’t get the impression that the current or next generation of fantasy writers would have much of an issue with avoiding the Tolkien standard.



Indeed. Or at least they're more aware of these kinds of issues and can put the great writers to better use as inspiration rather than recipe books.


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## WooHooMan (Apr 21, 2020)

elemtilas said:


> Could be. What new and harmful trend are you thinking of?.



The new trends going on right now, we’re probably not even going to be aware of what they are until they’ve taken full effect.
It could be something like a shift towards “grimdark” or it could be a predilection towards in-depth worldbuilding or the influence of shounen anime.  It could even be the concerted effort to avoid conventional “Tolkien” fantasy or defying fantasy conventions.
Who knows?  It could be anything.


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## elemtilas (Apr 21, 2020)

Predilection for in-depth worldbuilding...coo I'd finally be en trend!


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## WooHooMan (Apr 21, 2020)

elemtilas said:


> Predilection for in-depth worldbuilding...coo I'd finally be en trend!


I meant in a way that detracts from story.
I guess if you want to be part of that, or any trend, more power to you.


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## elemtilas (Apr 21, 2020)

WooHooMan said:


> I meant in a way that detracts from story.
> I guess if you want to be part of that, or any trend, more power to you.



Heh. I could give that a try!


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## Saigonnus (Apr 22, 2020)

Personally, I respect Tolkien as much as anyone else, but truthfully, I try not use his tropes when writing a story. Humans are interesting and diverse enough in regards of ideologies, religions and culture that it affords plenty of opportunities for drama and conflict. 

I do have other ”races”, though two are derived from human stock, like homosapiens and homo erectus sharing the world, though with more genetic differences due to a longer period of genetic drift.


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## Faye (May 3, 2020)

P.A. Trujillo said:


> I love J.R.R. Tolkien. He is an incredible writer and an extremely creative world-builder. It was his writing that inspired me to turn my creative energies to fantasy writing.
> 
> That said...
> 
> ...



To take another twist on dwarves, my guy and I were recently playing a game of microscope (world buiding pen and paper game that I would highly recomend as a creative excercise) and he came up with an idea that the dwarves of our world would be very World of Warcraft-esk.  Engineers basically.  But that instead of dwelling in caves and mining, they were long ago banished to the coasts were they made under water engineering.  They now have an Atlantis style city underwater and use water elementals to help mine for deep sea minerals and gems.  So in a round about way, I guess in my mind staying away from pre-established sterotypes means taking a version of the race that you like and twisting it slightly.  Simply said, perhaps in this common struggle we are better served by focusing on the "I likes" rather than the "I don't likes."  I would be wise to take my own advise on this one.... xD


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## simonhard (Aug 27, 2021)

Personally, I fell into the Tolkien trap 10 years ago and still do not plan to get out of it! I read his books over and over again and watch movies based on his books over and over again! These are masterpieces! How I would like to get into that beautiful world written by him! I just admire him! I remember how my cousin showed me the Lord of the Rings movie for the first time. I went under the impression for at least a month! Christopher Tolkien really was a genius in his field. Rip! And how wonderful it was after reading another book or movie to go to my favorite forum on his works! I spent 5 hours a day there! If anyone is interested, here is the link: Wargs


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## Almyrigan Hero (Sep 1, 2021)

I'd say whether Tolkien tropes are a 'trap' comes down to what sort of fantasy you're writing.

If your world is meant to be enigmatic, or a draw in and of itself, or if the plot is mystery-driven, then by all means, homebrew it up. That doesn't mean you should be afraid of remixing old archetypes to fit your new story, but giving creatures strange names, interesting behaviors, and exotic appearances can help invest people into your setting. Tolkien could've just rewritten Beowulf, and Lovecraft could've just done horror about how the literal Greek pantheon is still transforming unfortunate people into bugs to this very day, but would either of those have captured people's imaginations in the same way?

On the other hand, if your story is just a straight, banter-packed action-adventure from point A to point B, people probably aren't reading it to be swept up into an immersive world of terror and whimsy in the first place. They just want to follow a cool knight on a thrilling adventure with his witty friends. If it's a comical story, or just a straight up comedy, then you actually benefit from doubling down on the tropes. An elf joke is probably going to be a lot funnier than a Reticulated Were-Geldroth joke, to the first-time reader.


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