# Is This Too Gross?



## psychotick (Mar 4, 2017)

Hi,

I'm about a hundred K into my latest epic fantasy, "A Bittersweet Brew", and have built a monster. (Actually monster babies, but what the hey!)

Either way it runs like this. Monster mummy (daddy) is a sort of fae who lures young women to his grotto etc and has his way with them. (This is just background by the way.) In time the women get with baby monster. Now baby monster is only partly of the real world, partly of another world - like daddy dearest. And is partly as such, ghostly. He also looks like a baby dragonish / dragonfly critter - so really pretty!!! And in his human mother, the baby can't completely be sustained by her alone. So she has to go out and get preggers by other men, so her baby monster can consume the unborn foetuses inside her womb. (I said it was gross!)

The other thing about this particular monster baby is that since it's sort of ghostly / otherworldly, it can phase out of her skin and so appear as a baby ghost dragon monster, still attached to her middle, but able to fight etc! Think long sinuous neck and head full of teeth sticking out of her tummy!

Oh and a couple more lovely little details. As part of the mating process the human mother gainst the essence of its monster baby - pale blood and enormous strength etc. This is so the mother can support the growing monster inside her. But when it's time to be born, the baby will of course rip its way free of her, discarding her like a husk. (So it's sort of a parasite.)

So my question is as in the title - is this too gross? Would it ruin a good epic fantasy for you?

Cheers, Greg.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Mar 4, 2017)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm about a hundred K into my latest epic fantasy, "A Bittersweet Brew", and have built a monster. (Actually monster babies, but what the hey!)
> 
> ...



Too gross? Including the concept wouldn't ruin a book for me--though it would definitely depend on how much this affected the story and how much detail you went into, so i can't give a super specific answer. It also depends on your goals. If you're going for horrid and disturbing, it works. If you are going for something somewhat lighthearted, well...you might want to consider changing it. So, it depends on your goals, I guess...

Questions...what happens if woman host DOESN'T go out and get pregnant to feed monster baby? Also, if monster baby is part ghost, can it not flit outside her womb and kill prey...?


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## Alyssa (Mar 4, 2017)

Ewwww... (and the award for least helpful comment goes to -)

It sounds fine, be very careful with rape and babies getting eaten though if you're trying to get published. It's not a rule by any stretch, but people can get offended by it as much as grossed out, depending on how you portray it.

But hey. Nothing's too gross. Dark fantasy exists for a reason.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## staiger95 (Mar 5, 2017)

The inclusion of sexual assault and predation in fantasy and mythology is neither uncommon nor without merit.  Sexuality and reproduction are as much legitimate human topics as any, and exploring extreme deviations allows an opportunity to examine social norms by comparison.  Whether or not something is too gross or too depraved depends entirely upon your target audience.  The real risk any writer of dark imagination takes is in exposing the true depths of his or her internal depravity.  But having a deep understanding of the horrific does not make one horrible.  Knowing what is terrifying or demented or villainous is just as important to a writer as knowing what is uplifting or enlightening or heroic.  But as a writer, one must always ask:  Why?  What is the _function _of this within my story?  How does _this _aspect help progress the plot or reflect a character trait or direct the tone?  The more thought you put into the construction of the story, the better the read will be regardless.


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## Demesnedenoir (Mar 5, 2017)

I don't have a problem with it as presented. It could certainly be written in a way I wouldn't like, but in general, the horror aspect here is fine.


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## FifthView (Mar 5, 2017)

psychotick said:


> And in his human mother, the baby can't completely be sustained by her alone. So she has to go out and get preggers by other men, so her baby monster can consume the unborn foetuses inside her womb.



Grossness tolerance levels will differ a) between readers, and b) depending on how much is shown and how it is shown.  The abstract idea of it may gross a reader out but be tolerable; add detailed descriptions (go up and close on the process), and you are more likely to pass the tolerance level of a reader, especially if the extra detail becomes gratuitous or unimportant for the telling of the story.

That said, I'm really wondering about the practicality of this.  Let's use a metaphor.  I might be very hungry, but if I plant a seed of corn, I'm going to have to wait a long time in order to satisfy my hunger by eating the corn; i.e., time is required for growth.  If the monster baby is developing at about the same speed as any new fetus, maybe in early stages that fetus would supply adequate sustenance.  But as the monster baby grows, each new fetus is going to supply very little immediate sustenance.  I'm certainly no expert of fetus development, but I did a quick search and it seems that even at 8 weeks, the fetus is only about 1 gram. How often can the mother become pregnant, and can the monster baby wait for many weeks after the new pregnancy for the new fetus to grow...if, as you said, the mother can't supply enough nutrition on her own for the monster baby?  Maybe I'm missing something.


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## glutton (Mar 5, 2017)

The description makes me wonder if the women are magically compelled to get pregnant by other men to sustain the baby, since normally I wouldn't expect women to want to take care of the offspring of a monster that raped them and which will end up killing them. I'm guessing they probably are compelled but that was my first thought/question.


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## psychotick (Mar 5, 2017)

Hi,

Thanks guys. Good thoughts. 

Just to clarify. The women when they go to their monster lover are not raped. They go willingly. Though they may be under some sort of magical influence. This is simply the old king of the fae trope (Beowolf?) rehashed. But Glutton, you've put a finger on one of the plot points - whether they are compelled to do these horrible things to protect / feed their unborn babies or if instead it's their choice - and the answer is both. The women are seduced, but they could not be seduced by the darkness if they were not already corrupted in some way. My MC has to wrestle with this question as he battles his stepmother - because ultimately she's a fresh faced eighteen year old, (wed to his dirty old man father the King) and killing / maiming / torturing such a woman would be a major no no for him, but he doesn't have a lot of choice.

Fifth - I agree with the practicality issue - hadn't thought about it. But it's not really about sustinance. The parent is an outworld being. His offspring are also outworldly, and could have little in the way of an effect on the actual world normally. This is the means by which they start gaining some worldly substance, and the ability to survive in it outside of their mother. This DOTA is also why the monster babies can't leave the mother to kill. They are literally bound to her for their survival until they reach maturity. They can just extend parts of themselves beyond her physical body for a time to kill etc. That's also why they can be much, much larger than the mother and still be inside her.

And Staiger, I don't think this exposes much about my internal depravity (I hope)! It's more just a sub-plot that makes the main plot of the book possible.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Ireth (Mar 5, 2017)

psychotick said:


> The women when they go to their monster lover are not raped. They go willingly. *Though they may be under some sort of magical influence.*



That still sounds like rape to me. Like someone being taken advantage of because they're too drunk to say yes or no. :/


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Mar 5, 2017)

^Agreed. 

Bleh. It's much too icky for my tastes.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Mar 5, 2017)

Ireth said:


> That still sounds like rape to me. Like someone being taken advantage of because they're too drunk to say yes or no. :/



Yeah, it's still rape. :/


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Mar 5, 2017)

How do we find ourselves discussing these sorts of things???


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## Queshire (Mar 5, 2017)

Too gross for me as well, but that's just a matter of personal taste. Just make sure what target audience you're aiming at is likely to be ok with it.


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## psychotick (Mar 5, 2017)

Hi,

I don't think I'm going to argue the point about whether what the monster does is rape - it really isn't part of the book save as background to a character and its never described in detail - and it could be argued either way.

But I would mention that this at least is traditional mythology for faeries, kelpies, selkies, sidhe and many other mythological creatures / peoples. They lure people - men and women - to their lairs for a romp. That was how Beowulf was born, as one of the offspring of one of these unions. Likewise the Greek and Roman gods did the same thing.

Personally for me the more gross part is that the offspring of these unions is less a baby than a parasite which will ultimately destroy it's host.

Cheers, Greg.


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## glutton (Mar 5, 2017)

Since I'm already posting in this thread, my way of softening the distastefulness factor would probably be having one of the women do a self abortion, then going after the daddy monster and beating the *beep* out of it. Then she can end the story with chin held high. XD


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## psychotick (Mar 6, 2017)

Hi Glutton,

Won't work for any number of reasons, but mostly because she's the bad guy!

Cheers, Greg.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Mar 6, 2017)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm about a hundred K into my latest epic fantasy, "A Bittersweet Brew", and have built a monster. (Actually monster babies, but what the hey!)
> 
> ...



Forget about gross, this is too self-inconsistent and gratuitous for my tastes. The baby can phase out of the mother and fight, but it can't get sustenance that way, so it requires the mother to become pregnant, so it will have something to eat...eventually. If it was to get hungry in the meantime, what does it do? Why not eat the mother from the inside? It's going to rip her apart eventually anyway, so what does it care? How does it know what a fetus is and distinguish it from the mother's flesh? Like I said, it's not a tale for me.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Mar 6, 2017)

Why is this reminding me of Twilight, which I never want to be reminded of???


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## ascanius (Mar 6, 2017)

For me this would depend on how it's described.  I don't really think I would find this as gross unless described in such manner.  It's creepy as all f*k though .   Though I have something similar, with demons, no question it is bad though.



TheCrystallineEntity said:


> How do we find ourselves discussing these sorts of things???




What's wrong with talking about it?  It's weird and all but so what.  I'm sure a lot of us have something that is going to cause a reread, or be outside the norm.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Mar 6, 2017)

^There's nothing wrong. I just found it slightly amusing.


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## Alyssa (Mar 6, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> Why is this reminding me of Twilight, which I never want to be reminded of???



that brings back awful memories...


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Mar 6, 2017)

^Sorry about that.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Mar 6, 2017)

Once I read a sample of Twilight for the heck of it. Holy crap, what a judgmental, disagreeable main character...


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Mar 6, 2017)

It's so badly written that it's almost unbelievable. 

Shall we graciously change the subject?


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## Alyssa (Mar 6, 2017)

^
NO!
Don't change it... Talking about Twilight is disturbing, but compelling... like a trainwreck... must keep watching...


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## Ireth (Mar 6, 2017)

Alyssa said:


> ^
> NO!
> Don't change it... Talking about Twilight is disturbing, but compelling... like a trainwreck... must keep watching...



Did you know Meyer wrote a version of Twilight (just the first book, iirc) with everyone's genders swapped? I can't decide if that makes the whole thing better or worse. ._.;

Life and Death: Twilight Reimagined by Stephenie Meyer ? Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Mar 6, 2017)

^^I'd rather close my eyes and listen to the explosion, thanks.


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## Alyssa (Mar 6, 2017)

Ireth said:


> Did you know Meyer wrote a version of Twilight (just the first book, iirc) with everyone's genders swapped? I can't decide if that makes the whole thing better or worse. ._.;
> 
> I don't know who I must have offended to deserve this... Twilight v2 ... whoever's out there... anyone... I'm sorry...
> 
> ...


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Mar 6, 2017)

Ireth said:


> Did you know Meyer wrote a version of Twilight (just the first book, iirc) with everyone's genders swapped? I can't decide if that makes the whole thing better or worse. ._.;
> 
> Life and Death: Twilight Reimagined by Stephenie Meyer ? Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists



I e heard of that...


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## Annoyingkid (Mar 6, 2017)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm about a hundred K into my latest epic fantasy, "A Bittersweet Brew", and have built a monster. (Actually monster babies, but what the hey!)
> 
> Either way it runs like this. Monster mummy (daddy) is a sort of fae who lures young women to his grotto etc and has his way with them. (This is just background by the way.)



This is dark but it's not a dealbreaker yet. I assume the monster looks like a man in order to lure the women. But you later say his babies look like dragon (flies) , so which form is he taking here? It is possible to recover psychologically from being raped by another human somewhat but by a giant mutated dragonfly? No amount of therapy in the world.



> In time the women get with baby monster. Now baby monster is only partly of the real world, partly of another world - like daddy dearest. And is partly as such, ghostly. He also looks like a baby dragonish / dragonfly critter - so really pretty!!!



it's still horrifiying. I'd expect the women's sanity to break down here. Unless it controls her mind. Which is getting really disturbing.



> And in his human mother, the baby can't completely be sustained by her alone. So she has to go out and get preggers by other men, so her baby monster can consume the unborn foetuses inside her womb. (I said it was gross!)



And what if she doesn't? Does it starve out or does she have no choice?
So it's going to wait like four months to eat one half grown baby? That's so dumb. It's being gross for the sake of it. 


> The other thing about this particular monster baby is that since it's sort of ghostly / otherworldly, it can phase out of her skin and so appear as a baby ghost dragon monster, still attached to her middle, but able to fight etc! Think long sinuous neck and head full of teeth sticking out of her tummy!



You talk like it's one of those creature companions in MMO's. But what's the point in giving away it's presence?  What do you think the woman is doing at this point? Again is she mind controlled?


> Oh and a couple more lovely little details. As part of the mating process the human mother gainst the essence of its monster baby - pale blood and enormous strength etc. This is so the mother can support the growing monster inside her. But when it's time to be born, the baby will of course rip its way free of her, discarding her like a husk. (So it's sort of a parasite.)



Once this phenomena becomes known, she'd commit suicide or be murdered long before then. Does she have enormous durability too? Because if it gives it's presence away like that people will burn her at the stake. Or stab.


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## psychotick (Mar 7, 2017)

Hi Guys,

The true horror of Twilight was that - at least here in NZ - it was originally marketted as a vampire story, which is why I got the first one out of the vid store. It was only about half way through when I realised kid vampire boy wasn't going to do the right thing and rip the throat out of the annoying girl, that the true horror of it really sank in! That it was in fact some sickening romance for brain dead ten year old girls. If only they'd marketted it correctly I would have never been exposed to such a nauseating video nasty - and I would have been perfectly happy with the movie - since I wouldn't have watched it!

As it is the therapy bills from having watched that first half hour have been mounting up over the years! (It's technically known as Post Non-Traumatic Stress Disorder.) It's true what they say. There just isn't enough blood, death and gore in the entire movie world to wipe out the memory of even half an hour of a tween romance!!!

Cheers, Greg.


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## Ireth (Mar 7, 2017)

psychotick said:


> The true horror of Twilight was that - at least here in NZ - it was originally marketted as a vampire story, which is why I got the first one out of the vid store. It was only about half way through when I realised kid vampire boy wasn't going to do the right thing and rip the throat out of the annoying girl, that the true horror of it really sank in! That it was in fact some sickening romance for brain dead ten year old girls. If only they'd marketted it correctly I would have never been exposed to such a nauseating video nasty - and I would have been perfectly happy with the movie - since I wouldn't have watched it!



That's bizarre. Here in Canada it was marketed as a romance -- the back cover explicitly said that Edward is a vampire, that he thirsts for Bella's blood, and that she was in love with him. Part of what made it unbearable for me was Bella taking so long to realize the vampire bit. The rest was the ridiculously unhealthy (read: mutually abusive, though Edward does more) nature of their relationship which was still touted as a romance for the ages. Ugh.


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## psychotick (Mar 7, 2017)

Hi Annoying,

Yes, the woman is mad, driven so by the pregnancy - if it can really be called that. The creature inside her is more a parasite than a baby. Think of a wasp baby laid in a host caterpillar. And through a mix of chemicals and magic she has come to believe the thing inside her is her baby, that the father is her loving prince, and she will do absolutely anything to make sure it is born into a world it can survive in (even if that world is not able to support human life!)

Note that the baby is not even the father's baby - just a parasite it uses as a race of servants to reshape the new world it arrives in to meet its needs. And the baby is able to live inside the mother even though its larger than her even unborn because its otherworldly like the father. Living inside her is a form of protection for it since it can't actually survive in the world until its mature, so its actually bound to her for a few years. But as it matures, it slowly becomes more of the world, and at some point becomes able to survive in it - at which point, despite having strengthened the mother enormously, it rips its way free of her.

As for the father, I've never described him at all. He is the ultimate big bad - think something like the great old ones from Lovecraft - never seen or even really part of the book. He's just the main threat destroying the world. An otherworldly being recently arrived. And he lays(?) his parasitic servants in vulnerable girls because when they mature they can serve him, rebuilding the world into a form in which he can survive. In this case he lives in a volcano, deep underground and his servants are there to ultimately convert the entire world into a volcanic wonderland full of lava and toxic gasses.

I've got rid of the whole baby eating part, because you're right, it does almost seem contrived to be gross simply to be gross.

But what are these creature companions you mention and from which MMO's? It doesn't sound like a game I'm familiar with and I would hate for my monsters to be too similar to others out there.

Cheers, Greg.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Mar 7, 2017)

^^Whenever I see any copy of Twilight, I want to rip it apart and burn it. The only other book that has caused that reaction is The Handmaid's Tale. *shudder*


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## staiger95 (Mar 7, 2017)

I will have to agree with Michael  "Forget about gross, this is too self-inconsistent and gratuitous for my tastes."

A writer must ask:  What are the elements that are actually _needed _for the story, and why?  Beyond that, some things are just superfluous nonsense.  Target audience always makes a difference, naturally, but sometimes simple i still best.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Mar 7, 2017)

There's plenty of superfluous nonsense in my books......some of it important, some of it world building, and some of it neither.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Mar 7, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> There's plenty of superfluous nonsense in my books......some of it important, some of it world building, and some of it neither.



Have you found a large audience for your superfluous nonsense?


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Mar 7, 2017)

^No, but the few people who have read my books like them a lot.


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## Annoyingkid (Mar 8, 2017)

In the MMO Vanguard Saga of Heroes you can summon a little dragon to fight alongside you, Guild Wars has the celestial minipet companions. But I was mostly talking in general, the idea that it's already tricked the woman into thinking that's her baby and she must bring it to term. How can it maintain that spell if it reveals itself? Only way is if it's completely taken over the woman's mind, meaning she's essentially already dead. If her blood turns pale her skin colour would change and so it's game over. People will know who to kill. People aren't going to just allow such a creature to multiply as it can very easily become a threat to the very existance of any fantasy race, much less humanity. 

Appearing like some attached spectral dragon and having it fight seems like a sacrificing of internal logic for video game imagery. If her blood really does turn pale, she'd want to be as far from other people as possible. The parasite would want her living alone in a forest or wilderness, safe from reprisal until it's grown. What does it gain from being around people? Does it mind control all the other people as well to keep it's increasingly pale host from being slain? Again does it make her invulnerable to all their attacks? In which case why does it ever need to show itself and fight?


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## Michael K. Eidson (Mar 8, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> ^No, but the few people who have read my books like them a lot.



Were these people friends and family? If you're going to put forth that your books contain superfluous nonsense and are well received by an audience, those of us reading your claims need to know something about your audience, if we are to make use of what you're telling us. Otherwise, what are we on this forum supposed to take from your pronouncement that your books contain superfluous nonsense and that your readers like them a lot?


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Mar 8, 2017)

^Basically, yes, but they like my weird sense of humor.


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## psychotick (Mar 8, 2017)

Hi Annoying,

Good points. 

Not worried about her being pale because some people naturally are. It would only be those who saw her colouration change that would worry. 

And as to the mind control, I'm thinking of it mostly as a chemical / instinctual sort of thing. She's lived with this thing inside her, growing, for years, and it has been slowly transforming her, making her immensely strong and tough. The blood becoming colourless is just the symbol of that. In scientific terms (remember this is an epic fantasy set in a medieval type world with the beginnings of steam power so I can't use most scientific terminology) I'd suggest she's under the influence of some form of hormonal action - some sort of bonding hormone that completely overpowers her ability to think of the parasite as anything other than her baby. But also it's medieval in setting (know knowledge of DNA etc), and as far as she knows she's had sex (she has no clear memories of the acts), so what else is she supposed to think other than she's pregnant? Also this creature is new to the world so she has no knowledge from society / history about it. 

And yes this creature, is about to become a very grave danger to the world. The great beast which I'm calling a behemoth, is about to slowly destroy it, and the parasites which its laid in her and a great many other women on a great many other worlds are its servants. They're tough but killable, even when fully grown. The behemoth is not killable - it's half way to godhood - and not really intelligent.

Will google the MMO's you mentioned. Thanks.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Ireth (Mar 8, 2017)

psychotick said:


> She's lived with this thing inside her, growing, for years, [snip] and as far as she knows she's had sex (she has no clear memories of the acts), so what else is she supposed to think other than she's pregnant?



Wait... this thing lives inside her for _years?_ And the woman doesn't think it's fishy when she doesn't go into labor at nine months? No one else notices that she seems to be perpetually pregnant? Even if they assume she just hasn't lost the weight, I'm sure the local midwife would be suspicious at not being needed at some point. Or at the very least informed of a miscarriage. This is seriously straining my suspension of disbelief.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Mar 8, 2017)

^How did I miss that part? Blehk!


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## Annoyingkid (Mar 8, 2017)

> Not worried about her being pale because some people naturally are.



 Increasingly colourless blood would give her skin a distinctive grey tone. More grey than the sickest of people. 

More grey than this: http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/a1/a3/dd/a1a3dd808bbf58f2b3c713b1abfa1673.jpg

I can't see anyone standing for it once this phenomena becomes known.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Mar 8, 2017)

TheCrystallineEntity said:


> ^Basically, yes, but they like my weird sense of humor.



I love weird senses of humor too, but not superfluous nonsense. There's a difference.

I'll stop picking on you. It's just that your statement about your books having plenty of superfluous nonsense seemed rather random, and I didn't know how I was to learn anything from it. Was I to take the statement seriously, or was it an example of superfluous nonsense itself? Maybe it was meant to be the latter, an example of your weird sense of humor. If so, good one.


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## Michael K. Eidson (Mar 8, 2017)

As to the OP, I'd think the woman with the monster baby would have to remove herself from society if the scenario is to have a chance at working for me as a reader. And that's only for starters....


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Mar 8, 2017)

^^Sorry. I am usually random like that. Though in the middle of my first book, the main characters have a random 'I need to go on a quest to *insert blank*' game that ends with all of them laughing uproariously. 



> And that's only for starters....


I wouldn't even read the book if it was anything like it seems to be now.


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## ushKee (Mar 8, 2017)

I think this is an awesome idea psychotick. Very creative, and compelling as a plotline and a way to establish easy empathy with your main character. It gives me great horror film vibes in particular.

Whether it's too gross or not depends on what kind of audience you are marketing the book too. If you are marketing to your average fantasy reader on mythicscribes, maybe, but to a horror and horror fantasy audience it would work wonders.

Like other people have said, it also depends on how much gory details you have present. The concept of a parasite is inherently creepy, but would probably be only over-the-top disgusting if you get into the details of how it tears flesh away from the insides of the mother or how its teeth slice through the other unborn fetuses. Stuff like that.


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## artsyChica (Mar 15, 2017)

I don't think this premise would ruin a good read for me; it might even be one of those "I can't believe the writer went there even while I can't look away" works if done "right."  Of course, doing it right is subjective, after all look at Stephen King - he writes some pretty twisted novels and he's a best seller.


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## TheCrystallineEntity (Mar 15, 2017)

Being on the best sellers list does not necessarily mean that a book is written well.


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## ushKee (Mar 15, 2017)

Yes it does, at least to a certain extent. Publishers want a certain standard for their books, especially if they are going to advertise it enough so that it can be a bestseller.

Anyway, I'm not sure what your point is there. If a book sells well, and you enjoyed writing it, then why does it matter if it isn't "written well" (in whose opinion, anyway)? If appealing to disgust and horror is something that would make the book sell well I would suggest that psychotick go for it.


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## psychotick (Mar 16, 2017)

Hi,

Actually I was trying to go just for the straight horror aspect of it, and avoid the gross / disgusting part. Which is why I've written out part of it. Now the creature is just an otherworldly parasite slowly maturing in the woman. It lives sort of compressed inside her but since it's only partly of her world and mostly of another - which is why it appears ghostly - doesn't really make her look pregnant etc. Not until the end of course when becoming more of her world it becomes more solid and ends up ripping its way loose. She however, under the spell of the parasite's monster creator, thinks she is pregnant.

I'm also redeeming her at the end. She's a bad guy through the first half of the book, but once she's free she is going to be the saviour of the world - possibly at the expense of her own life, I haven't yet decided. She's not a POV character but she is a focus of the story, and I want to use her as such. I'll probably know in another week or so as it's going well. One hundred and forty K in now and flying.

Cheers, Greg.


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