# Some help with God and the Devil please



## Gwynneth White (Feb 6, 2012)

In my YA novel I have the spirits of the unborn, the living and the dead all playing on one stage. The book is set on planet Earth as we know it. Part of the story takes place in present time and part of in 982AD. There is  a time-travel element which allows the modern day characters go back to an ancient civilization in southern Africa. The dead are essentially angels. The 'good' ones, called Guardians, serve in God's corner, while the 'bad' ones, the Gefallen, work for a dead man named Reuel. He is in league with the devil. I have avoided all reference to God and the Devil because I don't want it to be a religious book. Am I making a mistake by leaving them out? Is this going to leave a hole in my world-building? And if I do include them, should I call them God and the Devil? I want the modern-day realism to come through even though this is a fantasy. Your help would be appreciated.


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## sashamerideth (Feb 6, 2012)

Southern Africa had a completely different theology to judeo-christianity. Set aside your theological bias, study what the prevalent religions in the area at that time actually taught. It may be that the idea of one god and one devil is compltely not in line with what people actually believed.


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## Gwynneth White (Feb 6, 2012)

Sashamerideth, that would be the obvious answer BUT ... The ancient world set in southern Africa has a European heritage. And they aren't my problem because they have their own pagan gods I have constructed. But they are nothing more than that - my creation. I am asking more about the over-arching concept of God and the Devil, regardless of the actual religion. Most mainstream religions believe in a God figure (or figures) and an embodiment of evil. I call them God and the Devil. Do ou tink it would be appropriate to mention them. Sorry to be pedantic about this.


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## Aegrus (Feb 6, 2012)

Gwynneth White said:


> Sashamerideth, that would be the obvious answer BUT ... The ancient world set in southern Africa has a European heritage. And they aren't my problem because they have their own pagan gods I have constructed. But they are nothing more than that - my creation. I am asking more about the over-arching concept of God and the Devil, regardless of the actual religion. Most mainstream religions believe in a God figure (or figures) and an embodiment of evil. I call them God and the Devil. Do ou tink it would be appropriate to mention them. Sorry to be pedantic about this.



You might be surprised how many religions don't have an evil character.  And many have many gods.  Some religions have no deities at all.  

Also, how does it have Eurpean heritage?  There were European colonies founded there starting in the 1700's, but nothing earier than that, that I know about.


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## Gwynneth White (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks Aegrus
That's the beauty of fantasy, isn't it? You will just have to read Cursed when it come out to know how Europeans arrived in Africa then. And left before leaving a mark - other than the legend of the Lost City of the Kalahari.
Interesting comment about religion. It feeds into my private thought - say nothing and leave it to the reader to fill in the blanks.


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## Devor (Feb 6, 2012)

Gwynneth White said:


> Most mainstream religions believe in a God figure (or figures) and an embodiment of evil. I call them God and the Devil. Do ou tink it would be appropriate to mention them. Sorry to be pedantic about this.



The mainstream religions actually teach that the devil is a created entity, and that he is allowed to do evil for a time because it serves a greater purpose.  Thus the devil is typically portrayed as a weak and desperate figure, struggling to change his fate.  Whether you mention them or not is up to you and the details of your work, but if you want a system in which the two are close to equal, I wouldn't use "devil" but something else.


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## San Cidolfus (Feb 6, 2012)

If you don't want to directly include your meta-beings, that's perfectly acceptable.  I have to ask, are your main characters among the living or are they serving your higher-ups?  If your MCs are mortals, it'd make sense that they wouldn't encounter the Fiend and the All Mighty; degrees of separation, and all that.  And unless they're particularly chummy with the MCs, your immortals probably wouldn't be talking about their hierarchies.  You can wreathe your angels and demons in mystery and your average reader won't wonder who they work for because they're delivering the full dose of otherworldly.  Done properly, a few things left unsaid can give your work some enticing flavor.

On the other hand, if you have main characters among the immortals, it's sort of inevitable that they'd mention their respective big boss.  You know, water-cooler conversations and such.

"Hey, Metatron, have you read this memo?  This thing is frickin' nuts!  What is going on in that board room?"

"Trust me, buddy; you're happier not knowing."


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## Gwynneth White (Feb 6, 2012)

San Cidolfus said:


> If you don't want to directly include your meta-beings, that's perfectly acceptable.  I have to ask, are your main characters among the living or are they serving your higher-ups?  If your MCs are mortals, it'd make sense that they wouldn't encounter the Fiend and the All Mighty; degrees of separation, and all that.  And unless they're particularly chummy with the MCs, your immortals probably wouldn't be talking about their hierarchies.  You can wreathe your angels and demons in mystery and your average reader won't wonder who they work for because they're delivering the full dose of otherworldly.  Done properly, a few things left unsaid can give your work some enticing flavor.
> 
> On the other hand, if you have main characters among the immortals, it's sort of inevitable that they'd mention their respective big boss.  You know, water-cooler conversations and such.
> 
> ...




LOL... I just love that. And yes, I like your thinking. My MCs are mortal and they interact with the immortal dead - both the 'good' guy and the 'bad'. I know it sound silly, but I do like the water-cooler approach. Thank you.


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## Gwynneth White (Feb 6, 2012)

I hear what you are saying.... and trust me, in my story the devil is winning. The 'good guys' are on the run and they know it. But I agree, I don't need to talk about the 'devil' as such.


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## ascanius (Feb 7, 2012)

Aegrus said:


> You might be surprised how many religions don't have an evil character.  And many have many gods.  Some religions have no deities at all.
> 
> Also, how does it have Eurpean heritage?  There were European colonies founded there starting in the 1700's, but nothing earier than that, that I know about.


I just wanted to point this out.  Technically for a religion to be called a religion it needs to believe in some sort of supernatural being.  Otherwise it is simply a way of life, a philosophy if you will.  

And second I would be curious to know about Roman expansion that far south, or even the Egyptians and Greeks.  The Egyptians did expand south into Africa to some degree, so to did the Romans and Greeks.  I know they had some interaction with Nigeria and the queen of Sheba, I think that was her name.  This would have been prior to the 900+ AD period, more along the lines 2000 BC i'm guessing, you mention.  It would be worth looking into just how far south Rome traveled, I don't mean it's administrative influence but trade.  Travel to India was not uncommon at the time period and going as far south as South Africa would be similar in a way.  But I will say given the time period you mentioned Rome was in decline, with the two roman empires, one based in Rome in the Italian peninsula and the other in Constantinople in Byzantium, it is unlikely.  This was also the point when the Muslim religion also took off and attacked the Eastern Roman Empire, taking over Persia along with it.  I mention this because while The Roman Empire's were in decline the Islamic world governed by the Ummayad caliphs was doing the opposite and expanding it's boarders and trade.  Well it was just a thought of possible foreign influences, though I think it unlikely, especially in the 400-900 AD period.



Gwynneth White said:


> I hear what you are saying.... and trust me, in my story the devil is winning. The 'good guys' are on the run and they know it. But I agree, I don't need to talk about the 'devil' as such.



Back to the point.  I like the idea of mystery, I like the discovery so having, like others suggested, elements that are not known can work.  In my story I have done something similar, not so much because I am worried about the modern day take on the subject but more of a linguistic notion.


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## mirrorrorrim (Feb 7, 2012)

sashamerideth said:


> Southern Africa had a completely different theology to judeo-christianity. Set aside your theological bias, study what the prevalent religions in the area at that time actually taught. It may be that the idea of one god and one devil is compltely not in line with what people actually believed.


Quick historical point: Christianity reached Alexandria in the 1st Century A. D., and became the official religion of Ethiopia in the 4th Century A. D. It is very likely that it would have spread in some form to more southern portions of Africa, especially given that Christianity is an intrinsically evangelic religion.

While the conquest of parts of Africa by Islamic rulers at the end of the 7th Century certainly diminished the influence of Christianity for a couple hundred years, there is evidence that it may have continued to exist in Africa in some form until it was reintroduced by European maritime powers. Today, it is one of the most common religious affiliations for Africans, and it is still growing rapidly.

Also, there have been distinctively unique African branches of Christianity. Her name escapes me at present, but there was even a popular African prophet who taught that Jesus was an African, among other things.


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## Gwynneth White (Feb 7, 2012)

The Phoenicians were the first to circumnavigate Africa - regardless of what we in South Africa are taught about old Vasco de Gama. Herodotus reports that they were sent by the Egyptian King Necho II in about 595BC. There is a huge amount of evidence found in ruins in both SA and Mozambique - Phoenician beadwork particularly. My ancient story open in Southern Africa after the Bar Koba revolt ended in 136AD. i am claiming that Semitic people - part of the diaspora - arrived in southern Africa and lived here until about 980AD. After a war destroyed their world, the survivors returned to Europe. Obviously they had interaction with the Negroid people who arrived in southern Africa in about 750AD. But, although they came from  Judeo/Islamic roots, they wondered from the faith, adopting their own form of pagan religion. But, in my frame of reference, God and the Devil are still around. But to what extent should I impose my frame of reference on my writing? I suppose that is really my question. Do readers want a fantasy that refers to God ad the Devil? I know CS Lewis does it, but I'm not Narnia.


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## Darwin (Feb 20, 2012)

Just going along the lines of representative words can work just as well.  Myself, I created a world that had the good and evil dietys, but I didn't want to go with "God" and "Devil".  For me, I called them Order and Chaos.  So using things like that can work and get your point across without delving into the landmines of religion.


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## Caged Maiden (Feb 27, 2012)

Avatars would be a simple answer.


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