# Bullets vs Breastplate



## SeverinR

Grenades versus knights made me wonder about firearms.

Firearms made armor obsolete.
What modern firearms would penetrate a bronze breast plate or other newer metal plates?

I figure most rifles would, thinking even a .22 mag could. (Rifle not pistol, not enough speed in the short barrel is what I'm thinking)
What pistol? (3-20 yrds range, ie shooting knight before he could reach you with his sword.)
I believe:
44mag and .357 would.
Thinking .22-.32 wouldn't, not enough mass and speed.

10mm-.40 and .45 would.

9mm heavier rounds might, its a high speed round, so possible to glance off.

.38 at the right range with the right bullet.

Thinking ball ammo would be more likely to penetrate, expanding bullets less likely.
Defense rounds- hydro shok, glaser would be very unlikely.

Thoughts?
(I admit this is not research on anything I am working on. Just wondering.)


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## T.Allen.Smith

I've never shot a breastplate of course, but I have shot car doors. Nothing criminal mind you, just a strange shooting range. 

From what I witnessed, even a 22LR round will penetrate the metal door, however it will not fully penetrate the door interior. Faster rounds, of smaller caliber (like the 17HMR) will penetrate due to the increase in velocity. Larger, more powerful pistol rounds certainly can. I've never fired a 25 or 32ACP in this capacity though. You are correct that ball ammo (full copper jacket over the lead) will penetrate farther than hollow points which are designed for maximum expansion.

A high powered rifle round (longer casings with more powder like the 223, 308, 30-06) will penetrate steel plate. To shoot steel targets with a rifle you need to use hardened steel at distance, and the plates are thick. It would not be possible to wear that sort of plating as armor. 

Pistol rounds generally can be fired on metal targets that are not made of hardened steel, though these would still be too thick and heavy for armor. Keep in mind though, these targets are swing plates. That means the target is swinging with the force of the bullet. An unmoving steel plate would likely dent or even allow bullets to penetrate to greater degree, even pistol rounds.

I wouldn't trust a breastplate of standard thickness to stop any bullet, certainly not a rifle round or any commonly used defensive pistol round (380ACP & up). The best case scenario would involve a small caliber bullet impacting a rounded curve of the armor and deflecting.


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## Surad

All of those rounds would be able to defeat a medieval suit of armor. Even the best plate armor won't stand up to them. You have to remember that the early bullets were not very aerodynamic and were 100% solid lead. Modern ammunition is much, much faster and they're jacketed to boot, which gives them far more penetrative power than any old musket round could dream of having. Even a .22 LR would probably punch through a breastplate, which means round like the .380 ACP or 9mm parabellum would go through, even if they're hollowpoint bullets.


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## FarmerBrown

I could've sworn this was a Mythbusters episode but maybe only in my dreams :-( I can't find evidence of it anywhere! Fascinating though.


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## stephenspower

They Mythbusters episode you might be thinking of is the one in which they test the ability of James Bond to blow up a propane tank with a handgun. They can't. They find another way, though. Here's the conclusion.


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## SeverinR

I knew period metal was softer then hardened steel, but I think it is harder then most people think. commonly breast plates would be2-3mm or 10-14 gauge. Ok, Not a lot of metal there.

I shot a thick metal plate once. It dented the plate. We stopped shooting when we hit the plate center and the bullet bounced back towards us. Would recommendlong distance if you want to shoot hard metal.

I found someone that says an old 3/4 ton pick up fender was 16 gauge, possibly14. (old cars used better metal then cars today, by intention, cars today are meant to absorb the impact not with stand impact, which transfers the energy tothe occupants.) Washer machines are 26-28 gauge.

I saw a propane tank hit by a bullet, one just poked a hole in it, the otherignited the escaping gas and it was like a blow torch and the tank spun as itsprayed, but not an explosion. As they say on myth busters, don't try this at home.

Back to the future III, Marty used a cast iron stove door to protect him from a bullet. Pretty thick, but not sure a .45 wouldn't penetrate. (distance lessthen 10 yards)

OK, I based my original thoughts on bullets versus flesh and then tried to adjust for having metal in between the gun and the flesh. .22 doesn't penetrate to well, so thought it would no do well with metal in the way. 
16 gauage isn't very thick, so now I might believe the bullets might penetrate.A tin can might equal 16 gauge with the two sides, but armor wasn't made of tin. (also again, most cans aren't made of tin anymore.)
3mm of non-hardened metal will be penetrated by most modern firearms, still thinking less then .38(.380) would be questionable. But they are questionably efficent in unarmored people.


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## psychotick

Hi,

Mythbusters have done any number of epps on this, including weather paper armour can stop a bullet. It can by the way. It really all comes down to the basic properties of the armour and the bullet. Medieval armour would not stop a modern bullet or a musket ball. That's why rifles killed armour. But better metal purpose worked to stop penetration might. Even at 2 to 3 mm thick. And as for bronze armour, it may be old but there are many alloys of bronze that are far stronger than the old stuff.

Pick your bullet and your armour and then do a little research.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Malik

If steel would stop a bullet, we'd be wearing steel armor. We don't. I believe that most medieval armor wasn't steel, anyway, but that's another argument altogether.

I've seen metal-jacketed rounds go through both sides of a car -- civilian vehicles do not qualify as hard cover no matter what Hollywood says -- and the armor we have to wear to stop even a relatively low-power round (7.62X39mm, which is roughly the ballistics of the old lever-action 30/30) is inch-thick, super-heavy ceramic encased in epoxied Kevlar and sometimes backed with titanium. The titanium is there because when those plates take a round, the ceramic shatters. This stops the bullet by robbing it of its momentum, but it tends to leave you curled up in a ball, making little creaking noises and seeing electric-blue spaghetti every time you blink. Bullets are really powerful.

I would not believe that any European medieval armor would reliably stop a bullet. I don't think any modern steel will. If it would, we'd use it instead. At least, I hope we would. Ceramic armor blows.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Malik said:


> I've seen metal-jacketed rounds go through both sides of a car -- civilian vehicles do not qualify as hard cover no matter what Hollywood says



Truth, a lot of Hollywood cover is complete bunk.... And once you step into battle rifle rounds, like the 308 (7.62x51), the bullet will punch through a cinder block wall. You don't need the big 50 cal rifles to get baddies on the other side.


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## stephenspower

Re paper stopping a bullet, a Nick Carter espionage novel I read when I was a kid noted that a folded over Sunday NY Times would stop a .22 bullet. I've always wanted to test that.


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## T.Allen.Smith

stephenspower said:


> Re paper stopping a bullet, a Nick Carter espionage novel I read when I was a kid noted that a folded over Sunday NY Times would stop a .22 bullet. I've always wanted to test that.


A couple stacked phone books might, but I wouldn't trust a folded newspaper over my heart. As stated above, I've witnessed 22LR penetrate the outer metal of a car door. 

Nick Carter is full of it....


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## locofife

I wouldn't expect medieval armor to stop any modern bullets unless the angle happened to be just perfect. A .22 bullet can travel a good mile before running out of steam.


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## wordwalker

A .22 *pistol*, it might not... well, not quite as impossible. Caliber's only a bullet's width, not its length or the gun's efficiency.


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## psychotick

Hi,

Don't know how thick the newspaper mentioned is, but it might work. I just found the mythbusters epp summary from the wiki for the paper armour vs steel armour vs bullets etc:

"Kari spoke with antique armor expert Greg Martin, who explained that paper armor was in use as early as 600 BC and was built up from layers that may have been impregnated with resin or shellac. The Build Team tested several formulations for penetration resistance and found that a thick layer of folded paper, with no resin, gave the best results.
 Using an armor sample (1⁄2 in (13 mm) paper vs. 1⁄32 in (1 mm) steel) placed over a block of clay, they tested resistance to blunt force, swords, and arrows. The paper did as well as steel in the sword and arrow tests, failing only the blunt-force test, so the team built a full suit of paper armor to match against a period-accurate steel counterpart.

Each team member ran one of three timed courses in both armor types to evaluate speed, endurance, and agility; paper outperformed steel in all three. Finally, they attacked the suits with arrows, swords, and two different firearms - an 18th-century flintlock pistol and a 19th-century .45 revolver. Both armor types resisted every attack except the .45, leading the team to classify the myth as plausible. They pointed out, though, that the paper armor could quickly begin to disintegrate if it got wet or took repeated blows (both of which happened during the full-scale tests)."

Cheers, Greg.


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## stephenspower

Greg, it's the Sunday NY Times, so folded over it would be thicker than an old city phone book.


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## Penpilot

Here's a link to a list of mythbusters videos on youtube that tests what is bulletproof. 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=mythbusters+bullet+proof

Of note they have a video where they cover a car in telephone books to make it bullet resistant, but not bullet proof.


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## Tom

Yeah, that's a .22 for you. The only thing I use mine for is plinking and squirrel hunting. No real criminal would use a .22. Their penetration and power aren't the best--a human being can absorb several hits from a .22 and keep going, as long as no vital areas were hit. On the other hand, one shot from a .30-06 and you're down.

I really wouldn't put my faith in the gun if the caliber is on the lower side. Plate armor was effective at preventing penetration. It may look thin, but it can take a hit.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Tom Nimenai said:


> No real criminal would use a .22.


The 22LR is responsible for more human deaths than any other caliber, I think.

The FBI keeps statistics on this stuff.


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## Sheilawisz

I have no experience with firearms, but I shoot everyday with my air rifles and I frequently watch videos online about shooting tests, damage examples and reviews in general.

Something that surprises me a lot is how many people think that the lowest caliber bullets are weak and do not offer a serious threat. I believe that a bullet is a bullet, even if it's small, no caliber is to be underestimated. I know that the .22LR can reach very high speeds and attain a deadly penetration power, and there are many examples of this caliber being used in criminal activity.

My air rifle can pierce steel cans easily, the pellets create a sharp-edged exit hole and sometimes the can barely moves at all. The same projectiles can punch half-an-inch deep holes in hardwood, not to mention that they dent the brick wall in my backyard. I have read many stories about people severely injured and even killed by this kind of weapons.

Even the smallest bullets are far more powerful than air rifle pellets, so yes, the .22 caliber must be taken seriously.

Medieval armor would not stop bullets directly, but perhaps it could deflect them depending on the angle. Even in that case, enough energy could be transmitted to the person wearing it and the impact would cause serious damage anyway.

I think that a Roman shield would stand a better chance against modern gunfire.


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## psychotick

Hi Sheilawisz,

If I could just comment on the bit about energy transfer from a bullet. All that stuff about people getting hit by shotguns etc and flying backwards out of windows is pure Hollywood. In actual fact the momentum of a bullet travelling at say a thousand kph and hitting you is minimal. Since momentum is mass by velocity you can work it out for yourself. If a bullet ways say twenty grams and travels at a thousand kph, its momentum is the same as if it travelled at 200 kph and weighed a hundred grams, or if it weighed a kilo (the weight of a hand maybe) and travelled at 20 kph. Rather like getting clapped on the back.

The damage done is done by the concentration of momentum on one tiny spot on the body. So if your armour deflects a bullet completely, you'll hardly notice it, force wise.

Again Mythbusters did an epp on this and showed that a pig carcass hanging up barely moved when shot.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Sheilawisz

Yes, I know that those scenes of people flying after getting shot are just movie stuff.

I have watched almost every episode of Mythbusters too, it's one of my favorite shows. In one episode they were trying to determine whether it was possible to disarm a person by shooting at the gun in his/her hand, and then Jaime calculated that a bullet's kinetic energy is similar to that of a good blow from a baseball bat.

The bullet's impact against armor or a bulletproof vest would still hurt, I disagree that it would be like getting clapped. I agree that the impact would hurt much less if the bullet was deflected, but still I would not volunteer to try it out.

Maybe a medieval-like steel armor would need to be very thick and heavy in order to stop bullets, I am not sure. After all, medieval armor could be pierced by bodkin-style arrows shot from a short distance.


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## Tom

You guys are talking about MythBusters! 

I love how they use guns, and teach their viewers that, handled with respect and caution, guns are fun and exciting tools. Too many people out there have the idea that guns are bad, all the time, no exceptions. Guns are usually only dangerous in the hands of people who are dangerous, inexperienced, or disturbed.

On to the main point...bodkins are made for optimum penetration, and they do that by punching through the steel plate with a sharp tip. 

Hollow-point bullets that are often used in .22s are designed to kill mostly by impact, and so they spread out as they hit the target, the nose deforming into a flat, flower-like shape. I'd expect a typical copper hollow-point .22 round to simply deflect off a steel breastplate. Plate armor was designed to spread out blunt impact across a large area, absorbing the force. The steel might dent, but in the case of an impact blow like that of a fully expanded bullet, it probably will retain its integrity.


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## Sheilawisz

I would really like to believe that Medieval armor would be able to resist gunfire because I love everything about the Medieval world and achievements, and your argument against hollow-point .22 bullets is great, Tom... but anyway, I don't think that the plate armor would resist a good and direct hit.

My personal experience is related to airguns only, I am far from being an expert in firearms.

However, I have seen what air rifle pellets can do even at moderate muzzle speeds and I know that even the smallest bullets are far more dangerous. I also have noticed the difference between hollow point pellets and the pointed ones:

Hollow points deliver a severe impact force, and eventually they tear the steel cans to shreds. The pointed pellets cause clean and sharp piercings, but in the end the target is destroyed one way or another after a few hits. My theory is that if we upgrade this scenario to represent bullets and plate armor instead, the results would be pretty much the same.

I wish somebody would carry out this experiment, just to see what really happens...


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## Tom

Time to email the MythBusters team.


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## Penpilot

Tom Nimenai said:


> Time to email the MythBusters team.



On a side note, did you guys know they're doing a revamp of the show, and Tori, Kari, and Grant, got the boot? They're going back to basics with only Jamie and Adam as the hosts. Booo-erns... For me the show got infinitely better when the three Build Team members became regulars. Also, the science and stuff is great, but Kari just made things just that much better.


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## psychotick

Hi,

Thanks, that's really sad to hear. And I agree with Tom. Maybe it's time to email them and find out just what sort of steel / titanium / armour / etc would resist a bullet. My thought is that some sort of alloy should do it at not too much weight.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Tom

Penpilot said:


> On a side note, did you guys know they're doing a revamp of the show, and Tori, Kari, and Grant, got the boot? They're going back to basics with only Jamie and Adam as the hosts. Booo-erns... For me the show got infinitely better when the three Build Team members became regulars. Also, the science and stuff is great, but Kari just made things just that much better.



I know. It sucks. I loved the Build Team, especially Tory. His jokes and antics made the show so fun. Kari was great, and I enjoyed seeing her working alongside two men and being just as knowledgeable and obsessed with science as they were. It's not every day you get a woman in media like her. 

So, as much as I like Adam and Jamie, I'd have to say that the choice to drop the Build Team really made me lose a lot of my interest in the show.


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## Penpilot

Tom Nimenai said:


> I know. It sucks. I loved the Build Team, especially Tory. His jokes and antics made the show so fun. Kari was great, and I enjoyed seeing her working alongside two men and being just as knowledgeable and obsessed with science as they were. It's not every day you get a woman in media like her.



Yeah, I'll also miss things like this from Tori. I still laugh my arse off every time I see it.


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## Jan Conradie

SeverinR said:


> Grenades versus knights made me wonder about firearms.


Hi
Can't believe my google search sent me HERE as the top source for my question. How can it be that it has not been asked more intensively?
What's more is that I happen to be writing a mythical fantasy.
Here is the scenario: A time-traveller went to the 910 AD to change history by messing up a certain key battle, and afterwards ends up in a shield wall on top of  a bit of a slope with 5 real warriors facing a charge by 18 armed Danes in 9/10th century mail. This callous time-traveller (call him TT) is armed with a .38 Special six-shooter revolver and lots of bullets, mostly lead-tipped (not hollow) fortified copper-sheathed slugs. At 100-50 metres the time-traveller takes out some horses and 5 Danes with 12 bullets. One flees, the other 12 dismount, make a shield (wood with iron hilt) wall and charge the smaller group. He re-loads. At 15 metres he has to take out at least 4 of them despite peeing in his pants, shove the revolver and take position in the wall with his Toledo steel blade, for his group to survive. (He should hand his steel blade to a real warrior but doesn't, they don't know what steel is.)
So I googled can a .38 special revolver (easily) pierce medieval mail and then filtered to lead-tipped ammo.
Please reward me with some discussion, I ask thee most interestedly, oh fair company? )


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## Jan Conradie

Sheilawisz said:


> I would really like to believe that Medieval armor would be able to resist gunfire because I love everything about the Medieval world and achievements, and your argument against hollow-point .22 bullets is great, Tom... but anyway, I don't think that the plate armor would resist a good and direct hit..


Hi
Can't believe my google search sent me HERE as the top source for my question. How can it be that it has not been asked more intensively?
What's more is that I happen to be writing a mythical fantasy.
Here is the scenario: A time-traveller went to the 910 AD to change history by messing up a certain key battle, and afterwards ends up in a shield wall on top of  a bit of a slope with 5 real warriors facing a charge by 18 armed Danes in 9/10th century mail. This callous time-traveller (call him TT) is armed with a .38 Special six-shooter revolver and lots of bullets, mostly lead-tipped (not hollow) fortified copper-sheathed slugs. At 100-50 metres the time-traveller takes out some horses and 5 Danes with 12 bullets. One flees, the other 12 dismount, make a shield (wood with iron hilt) wall and charge the smaller group. He re-loads. At 15 metres he has to take out at least 4 of them despite peeing in his pants, shove the revolver and take position in the wall with his Toledo steel blade, for his group to survive. (He should hand his steel blade to a real warrior but doesn't, they don't know what steel is.)
So I googled can a .38 special revolver (easily) pierce medieval mail and then filtered to lead-tipped ammo.
Please reward me with some discussion, I ask thee most interestedly, oh fair company? )


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## psychotick

Hi,

Pretty sure the armour wouldn't stop a bullet. But from what I can read, assuming he takes out four of the Danes at fifteen yards, that still leaves eight against his five defenders. Not good odds. The question is can they fight them off by themselves with him helping, or should he stand back, reload and pray? Don't know. If he had a quick reloader things would be in his favour. Otherwise I think he'd just be overrun.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Jan Conradie

Thanks for replying, Greg!! But how can we be sure medieval armor would be pierced? The real (retired) Mythbusters must do an encore for this.
The defenders do stand behind an obstacle on a hill, like many minorities who won battles in the Dark Ages. At Esc's Hill a mere ditch saved the outnumbered Saxons.Well, how many stories have you read where the hero wins because he outnumbers the enemy? But 18 Danes would be way too many of course, thus the shots at 50 and 15 m.

_Maybe_ in this fantasy, the 5 warriors are stalwarts similar to...let's say...Uhtred of Bebbanburg, Uhtredson of Bebbanburg, Finan the Fast, Father Pyrlic and, of course, a time-traveller with a modern sword of Toledo steel..you never know with these kinds of mythical stories. Never know.

Finally, imagine the effect of gunfire on an attacking party of Danes in the year 910 AD? Would not all of them run perhaps, or at least have doubts about whose side Thor is on?
Did you know that at the battle of Adrianople, Constantine crushed an army of 140,000 with a mere 90,000 because they feared his....flag? Alexander was almost always outnumbered.
Cheers
J.


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## psychotick

Hi,

We can be fairly sure that the mail would fail against the bullet because its iron mail considering the date and hand made. But even if it was steel and somehow held, it would still undoubtedly give way and the man would be injured by the impact - broken ribs etc. If you want the armour to be stronger, place it over a thick leather cuirasse or make it part of a gambeson.

As for the rest that's how you write it.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Sheilawisz

Hello Jan Conradie!

First of all, Welcome to Mythic Scribes. I hope that you are going to stay and be a part of the community here! Your Time Travel story sounds intriguing, it's a nice concept and so I wanted to ask, how far have you advanced into the novel?

Now, regarding the particular scenario that you have described:

Time Traveler's greatest advantage would be the psychological effect that a rapid-firing .38 revolver would cause on 10th Century soldiers. After all the first revolvers were bloody impressive weapons even in the 19th Century, so just imagine what those Dark Age Danes in your story would think about it!

Total surprise, great fear and an excellent advantage for your protagonist.

I very much doubt that the Danes would dare to attack somebody equipped with such a mysterious and deadly weapon, and yes, the bullets would pierce shield and armor easily. Very sharp metal arrows could do it, later in the Middle Ages. I think that Skallagrim in YouTube has created some videos that demonstrate this.

Imagine that you are a soldier in our times, you are in battle and all of a sudden this guy pulls out some kind of crazy ray gun and starts to set your buddies on fire. The revolver would be that impressive, for 10th Century people.


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## Jan Conradie

Thanks, o Queen of Titania.
For this scenario, armed with promises of a hoard of gold if they complete the mission, I hope the Danes would not after the first 6 shots which at 100 metres missed most of their targets, run away before at least trying to attack the 5 lonesome warriors. In my scenario only one rides away. The time-traveler is lying down on the hill with his shooting arm on a rock because he, like myself, would find it very difficult to hit any target at that range with a revolver. So maybe the Danes would not understand that their prey are responsible for the thunderbolts. 
At 15 metres when the standing traveler shoots from within the shield wall, they would know. But they would also know that turning away that close to a shield wall would surely mean death. 
Is it improbable? Obviously. It is after all a time-traveler who went to 910 AD by stepping from a particular stone in Adam's Calendar to a certain stone in Stonehenge! Is it impossible? I hope not. Time-travelling is enough myth for one story, the rest I hope to make as realistic as humanly possible.


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## Jan Conradie

Hi Greg, thanks, I am surprised by all this help for my silly little scenario.
I do hope the armor was not steel in the 10th century, because I would not want my protagonist to die right there. Being an ordinary man, a bad shot, peeing in his pants against real Vikings, I would hope the revolver wins the skirmish easily before he faints.
He still has to live after the skirmish to use antiseptic, fire and aspirin to heal the leader of the warriors' wound in order to gain acceptance! His quest would be futile if they reject him or burn him at the stake...
Cheers
Jan


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## Sheilawisz

I believe that a good rifle would also be a great weapon for your protagonist, I mean that he could carry a revolver and a rifle too with enough ammunition for both guns, why not?

In any case, the best strategy to cause a severe psychological effect would be to open fire at close range, like you say. Also, if Time Traveler is trying this history-altering feat all by himself then that's a bad idea for him. I would prefer to have some friends with me, so we could open fire together and scare our 10th Century opponents a lot more than I would ever achieve alone.

Some time ago I started a thread about what would happen, if a Victorian-era kingdom was suddenly invaded by very large Medieval armies. Who knows, perhaps you would find it interesting.


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## Jan Conradie

Dear Queen of Titania
Unfortunately his rucksack is completely overloaded already. He has to walk from Glastonbury Tor (the mound, not the Tor itself which did not yet exist) to Tettenhall in 10th century Mercia, and survival will be tough.  I have actually planned and measured the whole bag of provisions in minute detail. He has 4 months to change the course of history! With provisions that are readily available in a certain place in 2019. And he must get all of it unnoticed to Adam's Calendar (in a gun-free zone with a security guard) in order to access the worm-hole portal to connected spots in 10th century Britain.
His other option is to swing the Battle of Hastings in 1066 but I decided that is too hard, and the countryside was then too crowded already to walk around unnoticed in a jean and a modern coat with a canvas rucksack...it is less of a walk though, using the Stonehenge portal. You see, one can change the history of the Western Hemisphere completely by just starting a forest fire East of Tettenhall in 910 AD. This idea is copyrighted, everyone, seriously!
Cheers
J.


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## Jan Conradie

Tom said:


> I know. It sucks. I loved the Build Team, especially Tory. His jokes and antics made the show so fun. Kari was great, and I enjoyed seeing her working alongside two men and being just as knowledgeable and obsessed with science as they were. It's not every day you get a woman in media like her.
> 
> So, as much as I like Adam and Jamie, I'd have to say that the choice to drop the Build Team really made me lose a lot of my interest in the show.


Yes, Tory and Kari were one of the best duo's on TV ever. Heavily underestimated. The world is poorer without that combination. The other guy, the brainy one who worked on Star Trek, was crucial too of course.


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## Sheilawisz

Jan Conradie said:


> His other option is to swing the Battle of Hastings in 1066 but I decided that is too hard, and the countryside was then too crowded already to walk around unnoticed in a jean and a modern coat with a canvas rucksack...it is less of a walk though, using the Stonehenge portal. You see, one can change the history of the Western Hemisphere completely by just starting a forest fire East of Tettenhall in 910 AD.



Well that's true, and in fact changing history would most likely be too easy and perhaps even accidental. If you could travel far enough to the past, even the slightest change back then would result in great changes for the entire world. I believe that a better approach for your protagonist would be to murder somebody important, instead of trying to change the result of an entire battle.



Jan Conradie said:


> This idea is copyrighted, everyone, seriously!



I believe that according to Copyright laws you cannot copyright an idea or concept by itself, you can only copyright your particular expression of it. No need to worry, anyway: Most people in this site have our own ideas and concepts, unwilling to copy those from others, and many of us have completed novels of our own, and we are very proud of our achievements.

I only asked about your novel advance because I am curious to read some of it, in case that you are willing to share.


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## Jan Conradie

O illustrious Queen of Titania
You touch a very interesting point namely how to change history. I have done detailed calculations (though nothing as genius as my protagonist supposedly did) and settled on creating a forest-fire East of Tettenhall in 910. I actually think murdering King Edward the Elder would (1) be pretty hard for a stranger who cant even speak the 10th century lingua and (2) not have the desired effect because he had a succession plan in place, the turd! This particular battle can be changed by merely delaying Edward's army so that they join the battle too late. Actually it was a massive tactical blunder to allow two halves of a separated army to join before a battle, but that is what happens when soldiers are drunk. I don't necessarily want Edward to die, I just want to nip the rise of England in the bud.
In terms of Hastings you are correct, changing that would have a massive effect but it would be much too hard. Killing William while surrounded by a few thousand vicious Normans would be out of the question. The protagonist has the easy ability to poison a large quantity of water but at Hastings that would not ensure anything even if it kills a hundred. William won because an archery champion sadly eliminated Harold. So 910 AD it is, and creating a forest fire would not be too hard if one can survive the journey. It was a dry month (the River Tame was almost dry) and there apparently was a handy forest in exactly the right place. I recently visited the site whereas Hastings (or Battle Town, to be more precise) I've never seen.
This project is under ugly construction currently. I might place something else, which has already been exposed on the web, under "portfolios" on this esteemed board when I have time, but the quality on this board is slightly intimidating.  My minute little treasure of hard-copy published work is not in English, unfortunately.
Sincerely,
J.


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## Sheilawisz

Hello again Jan! I think that you are going to find this video here quite interesting.






I once asked Skallagrim about this during one of his Live Chat sessions, and his expert opinion is that Medieval armor and shields would stand no chance against Victorian guns. As seen at the end of that video, present-day firearms are far more powerful! I still believe that any decent modern rifle would be a lot more effective than the revolver, so I would at least consider it.

Anyway, if this was my story the protagonist would have a freaking AK-47 and that would get the job done quite well.


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## Jan Conradie

Esteemed Queen of Titania
That is really interesting. Moreso considering that the breastplate is much more advanced than 10th century mail. Good grief, you would send an AK47-wielding protagonist into the 10th century!?!  Would that not endanger the very fabric of time and turn your hero into a butcher?  I'll have to change his name from Godspeller Jan to Vicious Jan. I think he could actually change the Battle of Hastings then, it's 100 miles less to walk...
Problem is I have few instruments for realism, and the one I use is that I must be able to collect and carry the provisions my protagonist would have. I have actually collected all of it in pictures from nearby shops, and measured it etc. I even have some of it. And where I live, there is no way I could get my hands on an AK47! It is not allowed. Not that I wouldn't like to!
Most interesting. I must make time to read something you wrote, it sounds like it would be action-packed. My benchmark apocalyptic fantasy is John Christopher's classic "Death of Grass". You'd like the fire-power those ordinary protagonists wield! I can recommend that book most enthusiastically.
Cheers
"Godspeller Jan"


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## Malik

Just adding real quick: my MC in my portal fantasy series carries a 9mm subcompact pistol on his swordbelt because, he says, "anyone who finds themselves in a fair fight deserves to lose."

Modern-day jacketed ammunition would tear right through medieval armor, no question, and anything other than hollowpoint rounds would probably come out the other side and keep going for a while.
​However, he learns that there's a prohibition on using magic to do harm, and killing with magic is a capital offense. Since a handgun would definitely be construed as some type of magical device, he has to be judicious with it. So, one other thing to think about is how your MC is going to explain the thing away, especially in a superstitious and relatively uneducated society.


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## Jan Conradie

Hi Malik
Yes, you are right about that. A considerable theme and portion of the story is out of necessity spent on Godspeller Jan's Christian credentials and of course his usefulness to the Christian leaders and causes in Mercia, Wales and Wessex because ending up on a pyre with the Bishop of Caester (largely fictional given that Caester apparently only briefly had a bishopry before the 11th century) whipping a crowd of superstitious pheasants into a frenzy would be his worst nightmare (apart from miscalculating and emerging between two stones at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean instead of in Britain). My impression is that mass superstitious action against unexplained powers were then as politically driven as it is now. Be an opponent of or a threat to the wrong people and you'll die in a witch-hunt before achieving your goal. Ordinary folk were too busy surviving, and too sparsely populated to posse the protagonist en masse without instigation. Two or three nuts could of course attack him but they would end up being those unexplained corpses mentioned below.
However I think a carefully planned intervention with as little visible use of guns as possible might be more feasible than storming in with a machine gun and mowing down everyone until one gets to King Edward The Elder, and imagine the horror chapter that could cause in the Saxon Chronicles, to be pored over by too many medieval scholars. It could cause all kinds of anomalies in the course of history, like inspiring an alchemist to invent gunpowder in 911 AD and conquer the world. In my tale only the 5 warriors whose lives he saves, one widow he falls in love with and a few unexplained lone corpses in hidden forest coves would know about him wielding a hand-held Thor's hammer that kills at 100 m.
Is your portal fantasy available for perusal somewhere? Sounds interesting. What is your MC trying to do, portal-ing around like that with a 9mm? Please just advise him to say away from Stonehenge and the Glastonbury mound in 910AD, we don't want unnecessary risk.  My guy is a bit jumpy.
Cheers
J.


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## Jan Conradie

Oh dear Thor, I just investigated Joseph Malik's website and I am gobsmacked. I should not be chatting in this company, I am too much of an amateur.
Great was my relief though to notice that there is no chance that swordplay-olympiad with a gun could cross paths with my scared little guy in 910AD. So I am at least safe from being skewered in that encounter.
Salutè, Joseph Malik, thanks for taking time to talk to me, I am honored. Queens and best-selling novelists, what's next on this forum? This makes me think of a phrase from a Bernard Cornwell novel: "Lord Uhtred says I should speak to my equals. Then he sends me a goddess and a prince. I am honored."
Me, fading into obscurity again,
J.


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## Malik

Everybody started somewhere. Your book sounds solidly researched and you're on the right forum to get the answers you need. Stick around. You're in good company.


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## Sheilawisz

Hello once again, esteemed Godspeller Jan!

First, I want to ask you to stay and become a part of the Mythic Scribes community. We need new voices around here, we need more cool people and you seem very interesting so far. You see, several people in these forums share your passion for real world history and many others love to research in order to give their Fantasy stories that style of historical and believable edge.

If your protagonist had an AK-47, perhaps a small supply of bullets could counter the weapon's severe hitting power.

I researched quite a lot for my _Joan of England_ trilogy some years ago and the effort was worth it, even though only a small part of the first novel takes place in the Fourteenth Century.

If you are interested, you can easily find a limited selection of my novellas, novels and Fanfics at Wattpad!

All of my stories have a certain dose of action, but they are not exactly action-packed as you may guess. Anyway, if you decide to stay and you need any kind of Moderator assistance, just send me a private message.

S.W. Ellayn


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## Jan Conradie

Thank you, O Queen of Titania!
I assure thee I only appear to be cool. I am out of my league among you established, successful authors.  I need to start reading here!
Because all of you have been so kind to a stranger, I have now placed a little portfolio here, containing chapters from another, more complete, old novel of mine. For anyone interested to see a little inside my psyche. 
Gratefully yours,
J.


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## Jan Conradie

Thanks Archmage Malik. I am humbled.


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## psychotick

Hi,

If your preferred method of stopping / changing the outcome of this battle is to slow down an army, why not just equip your guy with a lighter and a pack of fire starters? You mentioned a river and a dry forest to start a fire in, why not add to that. Give him an extra week in the past and have him burn some bridges - (and I don't mean metaphorically!) Then set your forest on fire as well.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Jan Conradie

Hi Auror Psychotick,
You are remarkably, astonishingly close (reading my mind?): This guy IS equipped with a lighter, fire-starters and a few other provisions. The gun is not there to slow down the battle, the gun is there to help him survive long enough in order to fulfill his quest.
Typically of such stories, the worm-hole-portal is not conveniently located next to the battle-scene, he has to travel at least 247 miles to get there, and 10th century Britain is a very hard and dangerous place for a normal guy from 2019.
Elsewhere on this forum I described some of the events in the story where the gun is supposedly used, and not being an intentional murderer it nearly costs him his sanity. The spiritual hardship of ending up killing people to survive, turns out to be much worse than the very harsh conditions he faces.
The actual skirmish described with the 18 Danes supposedly (this is all still under construction while I listen to sage advice) takes place AFTER the main battle as he joins some refugees going South via Wales, to give him a better chance to get back to the portal in one piece in a Britain he has thrown into utter anarchy. As a side-story the idiot (which many protagonists devolve into at times) also tries there to keep the young Aetheling Athelstan alive in order to keep Britain divided for generations to come. If Athelstan dies there would be a high probability (according to his "masterful" calculations) of the Empire of Denmark merely replacing England's role in history, ending up with results similar to the ones he is sworn to destroy.
And of course he also wants to get back to that widow whom he erroneously fell in love with, who lives South-West of Latocetum (today the town called Wall). Complications abound.
An interesting question is: If these side-issues his own heart increasingly takes him into, lead to more people being killed by .38 Special revolver (as opposed to killing against his wishes necessitated by mere survival) then is he turning into a cold-hearted murderer?
I think (hope) many here would agree with me that if one time-jumps from today to 910 AD and then has to travel more than 240 miles to start a forest-fire on a certain day in a certain place, the chances of survival and success would be slim without a superior weapon? And THIS guy is fanatic about his quest, he wants to make SURE.
Finally, in the back of his mind, the protagonist thinks that if he fails (which in reality would always be a possibility) then he can simply assassinate King Edward the Elder with the gun and get it over with. Armed with less, he would have no chance. A mere assassination would be ineffective as mentioned elsewhere, but doing so in the week before that battle in 910 AD, should have the desired effect on the battle too. But he does not start out as an assassin, he starts out as an astro-physicist with a fanatic quest to change the world by braving Britain in 910AD and by starting the right forest-fire.
Cheers
Jan


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## Demesnedenoir

I do recall seeing an episode of some show where they analyzed a breastplate from the period of early firearms to discover it was modified and capable of stopping those old lead balls. The trouble was, the armor would be expensive as hell and still only protect a portion of the core where thickest. This, of course, means nothing against anything remotely modern.

In the Sister Continents I have arrowheads which are a bit like depleted uranium anti-tank rounds, due to a peculiar magical quality. Their penetration against wooden objects, however, is diminished. Magic is so much fun.


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## Jan Conradie

Thank you Auror, I concur that a .38 special long-barrel revolver with the right ammunition would be good enough. 
In my view magic makes it too easy. But that's just me, it is clear that the current trend in books is against me. What I am embroiled in with constructing this story, is how to use (or not get killed by) the APPEARANCE of magic, which is what almost any technology would be if a time-traveler took anything with him to the 10th century. I concluded that it would be unavoidable if the traveler had any human contact (like waiting in Viroconium for the moment to influence the events of August 910) that he would be perceived to be a wizard. His life would be in grave danger due to superstitious folk, BUT it could be an advantage for survival, like doing tricks for money (or rather hack-silver) to buy food. It would not be possible to pack enough provisions in a rucksack to survive the 4 months in England that I envisage the traveler would need, and he would have no skills to sell (feudal hierarchy would furthermore make earning a living almost impossible). Therefore he may have to resort to selling "magic" tricks. How to make technology that one can stick in one's back-pocket today, seem like magic in 910AD...that is the challenge. It is keeping my imagination very busy at the moment. 
I have, for example, found a set of lights-USB charger-Solar-panel that is so small it would easily fit in my rucksack..with a cell-phone that would of course find no reception, but do you realize how "magically" powerful a charged smartphone can be? 
Not to mention the information one could store on it, for example about mushroom-hunting, maps and medieval herbs.


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