# Why is Fire (Magic) Always Purely Destructive?



## Mindfire (Apr 1, 2013)

Just a thought. Fire is often used to symbolize life, light, knowledge, spirituality, judgment/justice, divinity, rebirth, ingenuity, passion, perseverance, and hope. But whenever fire appears in fantasy, it's typically associated with power or simple destruction alone. Even I have fallen into this pothole (though I am rectifying this in my WIP). Avatar: the Last Airbender explained this in a clever way, showing that firebending was originally associated with more positive actions and emotions before the Fire Nation militarized it and made it purely about anger, hatred, and destruction. But how come fire still gets a bad rap in most fantasy?


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## Steerpike (Apr 1, 2013)

Apart from light and heat, it seems to me the most obvious property of fire is that it has to destroy to feed itself (and you only get the light and heat by destroying). It is, by nature, a destructive force, even if you are using it for a positive purpose (i.e. you have to burn something to get the benefit of the fire).


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## Mindfire (Apr 1, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Apart from light and heat, it seems to me the most obvious property of fire is that it has to destroy to feed itself. It is, by nature, a destructive force, even if you are using it for a positive purpose (i.e. you have to burn something to get the benefit of the fire).



But surely fantasy fire can have different properties? And it's not just fire as an object, fire is often a _symbol_ of destruction when it can easily symbolize something else. For example, in LOTR Gandalf wears Narya, the Ring of Fire, whose purpose was to kindle hope and willpower in others to resist evil. In "stereotypical" modern fantasy, Narya would just be a ring that shoots fireballs- woefully uncreative. 
Plus, fire not only destroys, it also cleanses and purifies. These aspects of its nature are rarely seen, unless the story involves fighting undead.


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## Steerpike (Apr 1, 2013)

Sure, you can write it however you like. If it doesn't "burn" some kind of fuel to feed itself, is it still fire?


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## Ayaka Di'rutia (Apr 1, 2013)

My current MC uses a special divine fire as both a shield and for offense.  It represents her power and her connection to her goddess and an object called the Moonstone.  She also uses it for light and for military drilling that doesn't involve fighting.

I think stereotypically fire is used to represent destruction, but it can be used to represent many things, just like any other object.  The Inheritance Cycle comes to mind, where the word "Brisingr", or fire, represents the character Eragon and the steps he has taken to become a powerful magic user, as brisingr was the first magic word he learned to use.  I think Christopher Paolini also used fire as a symbol of hope in connection to Eragon.


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## Kit (Apr 1, 2013)

Fire destroys, but it can also destroy *bad* stuff.

The flip side of the Fire coin is renewal and rebirth. For any change to take place (even a positive one), something must be destroyed (even if it's only the old status quo). Change is scary to people, and a fire-type change often symbolizes a change that you didn't consciously choose (or at least choose the timing of). Change is often painful and out-of-control-feeling as well. As with death, it is something people tend to run from rather than embrace.


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 1, 2013)

Fire has fascinated mankind for centuries, and when you are camping somewhere and start a fire at night, you understand why: It would keep the cold and darkness at distance, dangerous animals would not come close to you and when you stare at a campfire in the night it seems so magical, so alive...

Then, Fire can represent all those good things: Life, warmth, light, protection, hope and more.

However, fire is also destructive and we all are afraid of that. Burning is regarded as one of the most terrible ways to die, and in past centuries even entire cities could be destroyed by a fire out of control. I think that's why the fire attacks are common in Fantasy stories, even though fire can represent positive things.

The use of incendiary weapons in war has also caused a psychological effect, so the destructive potential of fire is more deeply rooted in our minds than the good things it provides.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Apr 1, 2013)

Fire can also symbolize "invention" or "the progress of civilization" or simply "industry." Fire lets you cook food, create metal tools, etc. See the Theft of Fire motif in mythology.

It enables progress, but progress sometimes requires destruction. Maybe you have to cut down a forest to build a city, or conquer a civilization so that your own may prosper. Like Steerpike says, fire must consume fuel in order to burn. More than anything, I'd say it symbolizes _change._


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## Alexandra (Apr 1, 2013)

Fire is an elemental force therefore tis ubiquitous and powerful. How the power is used is up to the user (and perhaps author); for every half-baked D&D-like wizard incinerating his foes with fireballs there are thousands, if not millions, of homes warmed by the fire within the hearth; more candles are lit by lovers, parents of frightened children, or explorers in dark places, et al than fire arrows loosed by archers. Fire... a bad rap? I think not.


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## Mindfire (Apr 1, 2013)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> More than anything, I'd say it symbolizes _change._



Pffff. We all know _water_ is the element of change.


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## Yellow (Apr 1, 2013)

I'd say it also depends on setting. For a culture living in a forest prone to wildfire i'd imagine fire would have all sorts of negative connotation, ranging from scarcity of game to things like "my mom died in a fire two years ago". On the other hand for people used to a very cold, snowy environment fire would take on a completely different meaning, such as survival, health, perhaps even social bonding. In the end it's a character's relationship with his environment that should let an author know how to portray fire, or water for that matter.


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## wordwalker (Apr 2, 2013)

I'd say it relates to the same reason women characters may have some trouble (just some, I say!) fitting in fantasy: the genre tends to be warlike. There may be controlled fires for warmth and technology, but the story's mostly about fighting-- including defending the good. Fire's often the definitive symbol of heroes.

Technically fire is change, converting air and fuel to heat, light, smoke, and ash, or else to cooking, forgeable metal and so on; it can symbolize life's warmth, knowledge's light, or both. But it takes control to do much besides destroy-- plus that control puts the emphasis on the craftsman rather than the size of the flame.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Apr 2, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> Pffff. We all know _water_ is the element of change.



Oh yeah. Because it's not like the Fire Nation created _anything_ new, like steam engines and airships and pretty much laying the foundation for an industrial revolution. 

_Water Tribe,_ baby. Those guys were totally the most proactive civilization on the show. They had, like... spears made from animal jaw-bones and cannoes and stuff.


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## Mindfire (Apr 2, 2013)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> Oh yeah. Because it's not like the Fire Nation created _anything_ new, like steam engines and airships and pretty much laying the foundation for an industrial revolution.
> 
> _Water Tribe,_ baby. Those guys were totally the most proactive civilization on the show. They had, like... spears made from animal jaw-bones and cannoes and stuff.



Actually the Mechanist made most of that stuff _for them_. And the Water Tribe lived in the polar regions. Not much in the way of forgeable metal up there. But have you forgotten the Northern Water Tribe mega-city? An engineering marvel nearly on par with Ba Sing Se, except more impressive because they made it all out of _ice._ Plus, Sokka _of the Water Tribe_ was easily the most creative and ingenuous character of the entire cast. He not only made lighter-than-air vehicles possible by fixing the Mechanist's design, he singlehandedly invented _submarines_.

But in all seriousness, Iroh was referring to water being the element of _natural_ change, i.e. "going with the flow" and harmonizing with nature, as opposed to the man-made change the Fire Nation's industry represents.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Apr 2, 2013)

Mindfire said:


> Actually the Mechanist made most of that stuff _for them_.



So what? I'm talking about _industriousness. _I'm talking about _mass producing_ coal-fueled armored tanks in a world where most people ride around on ostriches. The person who came up with the design is unimportant - the Fire Nation were the guys who actually built the armored steamship fleets and airship armadas.



> And the Water Tribe lived in the polar regions. Not much in the way of forgeable metal up there.



Yes, and that's why they're still basically a tribal society who make spears out of animal bones. Picking a sensible place to live is sort of a big part of progressing as a civilization.



> But have you forgotten the Northern Water Tribe mega-city? An engineering marvel nearly on par with Ba Sing Se, except more impressive because they made it all out of _ice._



First of all, building a giant city isn't the same thing as progress. Especially not if it's the only city in your entire civilization.

Second, the fact that it's built out of ice becomes less impressive when you recall that they have people who can make water float around in the air and turn it into elaborate ice formations just by waving their hands at it. Same goes for the Earth Kingdom building cities out of stone, for that matter.

The Fire Nation doesn't have that kind of luxury. It doesn't matter how powerful benders they have, they've got to put those huge metal ships together by hand.



> Plus, Sokka _of the Water Tribe_ was easily the most creative and ingenuous character of the entire cast. He not only made lighter-than-air vehicles possible by fixing the Mechanist's design, he singlehandedly invented _submarines_.



Yeah, but you can't use _freaking Sokka _as an example of a standard Water Tribesman. The guy is clearly an extreme outlier, way too awesome to represent any sort of norm.

Anyway, I'm specifically talking about _cultures, _not individuals. Of course there will be the odd genius, but that would be true for the Fire Nation and Earth Kingdom and pre-genocide Air Nomads as well.



> But in all seriousness, Iroh was referring to water being the element of _natural_ change, i.e. "going with the flow" and harmonizing with nature, as opposed to the man-made change the Fire Nation's industry represents.



So basically, this whole discussion was kinda pointless?

You owe me an hour of sleep, Mindfire.


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## Mindfire (Apr 2, 2013)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> So basically, this whole discussion was kinda pointless?
> 
> You owe me an hour of sleep, Mindfire.



 Yep. 

But in the interests of fairness (and because trolling is fun), I should point out that the Fire Nation's machines are mostly powered by firebending (the tanks are at least), not coal, and that having people who can shoot fire out of their hands probably helps a lot when making, shaping, and welding metal. By your logic, that makes their technology less impressive as well. As for the Water Tribe living at the poles, they kinda had to if they wanted to have enough water around for their bending to take advantage of. 75% of everything in the world of Avatar depends on bending. And large bodies of water and large metal deposits typically don't coexist.


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## wordwalker (Apr 2, 2013)

Seems to me Iroh put it badly. He said water was the element of change, but that fire was the element of power-- which really means fire changes other things, water is able to _be changed_ and adapt. Which was what both nations did in the war.

But why is water considered the most adaptable element? Air flows around changes so fast you can't even see it reacting, and the Air tribe were mostly nomads. Not adaptable enough to survive genocide, but having the Avatar made them the special targets of the enemy and Aang still got away, and...

I'll be quiet now.


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## skip.knox (Apr 2, 2013)

Some of the comments here answer the question, I think. We moderns understand that fire operates in a destructive way, but that's not how it was understood in past times. Fire could exist without consuming anything, or at least certain kinds of fire could. 

So, if you want to break the stereotype, just go in that direction. Have a fire that is eternal. Have one that consumes mana or some other non-physical substance. Have a "cold" fire that illuminates or does something else without burning. 

Okay, I'm officially stealing this idea!


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## Mindfire (Apr 2, 2013)

skip.knox said:


> Some of the comments here answer the question, I think. We moderns understand that fire operates in a destructive way, but that's not how it was understood in past times. Fire could exist without consuming anything, or at least certain kinds of fire could.
> 
> So, if you want to break the stereotype, just go in that direction. Have a fire that is eternal. Have one that consumes mana or some other non-physical substance. Have a "cold" fire that illuminates or does something else without burning.
> 
> Okay, I'm officially stealing this idea!



In my WIP, I have a culture with fire magic that is powered purely by the imagination. Aside from combat, it also has utilitarian and purely artistic uses.


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## glutton (Apr 2, 2013)

I have characters sear their own wounds with fire magic and have a guy 'overclock' himself to speed up via fire magic. Not sure if that counts as they still hurt themselves lol...


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## Sheilawisz (Apr 2, 2013)

A magical type of eternal fire called Gubraithian fire was mentioned in the Harry Potter series, and they also have an all-destroying and vicious form of fire called Fiendfyre.

In _The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time_ you encounter a cold and pale blue fire that does not burn, instead being useful to dissolve crystals that are otherwise indestructible =)

In my stories, my Mages have a fire-like magical weapon. It's not really fire, as it is silvery in color (which is chemically impossible) and also it's impossibly bright, so dazzling that your eyes can get destroyed simply by looking at it, even from a great distance.

This weapon annihilates anything that comes into contact with it without a burning effect, spreading so viciously and so fast that it can destroy entire cities easily...

Fire is so fascinating to mankind that it will always be a part of Fantasy stories, one way or another =)


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## Kahle (Apr 3, 2013)

Fire itself is almost an embodiment of magic and power. It was the mark of humans progressing-it keeps us warm, sterilizes food and water, provides light, and in an instant, will spread out of control, consuming everything in its path. What can provide warmth will scorch and scare if you get too close for too long. You can stare into the flames for hours, entranced; it is beautiful, yet terrible. Fire must be respected, requiring constant vigilance and control. It can be used as a metaphor for purification, or physically cleanse something, but in both cases you have to remember that very little will remain after such a scouring. Humans believe they control fire, dominate it, and that is when they make mistakes. Sometimes the fire is too powerful to be quenched. The most terrifying forms of fire in history were Greek Fire or naphtha, which could not be extinguished. We love and fear fire. It is survival and eternal pain. There is something special about fire, how beautiful it is even while it burns a city. Fire as a destructive force is the easiest form it can take. The only way fire benefits humanity is if we control it, watch over and guide it.


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