# Feedback from Peers



## Diz (Jun 6, 2013)

So I just finished my first draft of my book.  I was told that it is a great idea to send it out and get feedback from people before trying to go any further in the publishing department.  How many people is a good number to get feedback from?  

I've been having a hard time to find people that can read my 90,000 word book and I feel as though my re-reading it does not do the editing and revising process justice. I was also wondering if there was a sight where you could send you manuscript to some people and they would give you feed back.

I am a young writer (19) and excited to see how far my work can go.

Let me know what you think.  Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 6, 2013)

I have a half dozen people I work very closely with and have developed a personal relationship with.  Critters is a good site, but you have to put in a lot of work, so I just recently joined and then quit.  If you want to find people to trade with, put some feelers out on this site, I've found most of my really great crit partners here and they've been invaluable.  Of course, developing the crit relationship is half of the work.  You know, trading good, thorough, honest crits.  So you might want to try one person at a time until you have a good handle on exactly what a partner is looking for.  It's sort of an equal-exchange-type relationship.  Where, you get out of it what you put in.  

It also helps to know what things you want feedback on.  If you're on a first draft manuscript, you have to know how clean it is goin in.  If it's messy, you'll lose a lot of crit partners who don't want to do a ton of work for a stranger.  A better option is to find someone whose work is similar to yours, both in style and for lack of better words, doneness.  If you want to exchange a few chapters with me, just to get a handle on how to do a good crit, send me a PM, I'm always happy to do a short crit for someone and have another set of eyes on my work.  I'm a tough critic, but never mean and always offer helpful suggestions.

A good crit partner will get to know you and your style, rather than trying to turn your work into something they might write.  They will point out the places where pacing or characterization are off and spoil the reader's enjoyment, and offer helpful suggestions as to what might strengthen your story.  They will tell you when something really connects, so you know where you hit a home run, and they will tell you where the story, character or plot struck out for them and didn't have the impact you were going for.  A good crit partner will always be honest but never mean, and try earnestly to help you consider your options to strengthen your manuscript, while keeping to your vision.    The best crit partners will know you well enough to point out your missed opportunities and help you to capitalize on your strengths, while using their experience to strengthen the parts where you are weakest. 

I'm really lucky to have some great people I work with.  Each has his own style and voice, and my partners have rarely let their stylistic differences hinder their ability to read my work (even if it's not something they would ordinarily read) and give me honest, no bull-crap feedback.  Be very wary of people who either tell you everything is great, don't change a thing (without explaining why they loved it so much) or people who read ten chapters and only have fifty words in comments to give.  A good crit partner's crit is like a conversation.  They write their feelings and questions to you, the writer, so you can consider the impact your story is having on them, rather than saying, "This paragraph is weak, I'd cut Chapter One, and I don't like Jilliana, the Fairy Queen as a character."  What you're really looking for in a crit is WHY the paragraph is weak, WHY they would suggest cutting Chapter One, and WHY Jilliana, the awesomest Fairy Queen you can write didn't connect for them.  When you get the WHY of their words, you can assess yourself how best to accomplish the goals YOU have for the novel. 

I've written a bunch of characters some of my crit partners and my crit group had problems connecting with, but until I could ask them WHY, I was just stuck knowing that they didn't do it for those particular readers.  Knowing your target audience and keeping an open dialogue with your potential crit partner is really important if your goal is to see your manuscript strengthened by someone else's suggestions.  

Anyways, I would recommend trying this site, because there are loads of great people here.  Best wishes!


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 7, 2013)

Realize that you don't get something for nothing.  Asking someone, especially an author who is busy with their own projects, to beta read your book is a huge imposition.  Usually, you offer to do an exchange: you beta read for them while they beta read for you.

It's win all the way around.  You improve both because of their input and because it's easier to spot mistakes in others work than in your own but you can translate those lessons back to your writing.  They win in the same way.

To date, my best partnership is with Ankari.  His strengths lie in areas completely separate than my own.  Because of this, I've elevated my game in his areas, and he's done the same based on my input.


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## Graylorne (Jun 7, 2013)

I found very good beta readers on Goodreads. There are several groups there you can join; I had the most success with the Beta Reader Group.

And when you're there, Mythic Scribes has a group on Goodreads as well!


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## Addison (Jun 8, 2013)

You want to show your work to more than two people. Not people you know, okay your BFF or a parent maybe but just one. More perspectives give more opinions from a broader variety of audience. 

I know this, yet, no one besides my kid brother and sister have read my story. I need to take my own advice.


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## Xela (Jun 9, 2013)

It's somewhat important to find fans of the genre of your novel. I wouldn't expect someone to react favorably to my dark fantasy if all they've ever read were Mary Kate & Ashley novels (exaggerated example, obviously). Find someone who is at least familiar with the sort of story yours attempts to be. And as said above, reciprocate!


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## TWErvin2 (Jun 9, 2013)

*Diz*,

To add to and echo what others have said, if it's a first draft you've just finished, I'd set it aside for a while, then go back and edit and revise. Get it as clean as possible before you seek out readers for their opinion.

I realize you're anxious to gather readers and opinions, but it is difficult to get solid readers. It's a big investment int their time and effort. If you provide them a low quality piece, and ask for suggestions, the odds are high that they will recommend revisions and fixes you could've made on your own. This will draw attention away from what they might add through their reading and input. Also, the lesser quality the work given to readers, the less likely they are to actually finish it and provide input.

I would also recommend that you target who you share your work with to individuals who are well-read and can provide various types of input, from grammar and structure to characterization, dialogue and plot development. Remember, however, even if individuals do agree, many will not follow through, or at least not at the timetable you might hope. Don't hold it against those individuals who don’t' follow through. And having someone re-read and provide input once you make revisions based upon input will have diminishing returns...they've already read and also, if you didn't implement suggested revisions--even if legitimate reasoning was the basis for the decision--why would they be interested in providing input?

Finally, you might devise a form or questions of some sort to help guide readers, if they need it. I've done this in the past, a short form that guided them as they read, helped them focus.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 10, 2013)

TWErvin2 said:


> *Diz*,
> 
> To add to and echo what others have said, if it's a first draft you've just finished, I'd set it aside for a while, then go back and edit and revise. Get it as clean as possible before you seek out readers for their opinion.
> 
> ...



I completely agree with this.

When you give someone something to look at, it should be as polished as you can get it.


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## Diz (Jun 10, 2013)

Great! Thanks a lot everyone.


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## Weaver (Jun 12, 2013)

Xela said:


> It's somewhat important to find fans of the genre of your novel. I wouldn't expect someone to react favorably to my dark fantasy if all they've ever read were Mary Kate & Ashley novels (exaggerated example, obviously). Find someone who is at least familiar with the sort of story yours attempts to be. And as said above, reciprocate!



Absolutely!  You can get some good feedback from a reader who only occasionally reads fantasy, but don't EVER ask for feedback from someone who is hostile toward the genre you write.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 13, 2013)

Weaver said:


> Absolutely!  You can get some good feedback from a reader who only occasionally reads fantasy, but don't EVER ask for feedback from someone who is hostile toward the genre you write.



I wouldn't say that as much as I would say to take that bias into account when evaluating the feedback.

1. I don't like reading mysteries, but that doesn't mean everything I would tell a mystery author as a beta reader is invalid.

2. Never take any beta reader advice without thinking it through.  It's possible that the beta reader is completely wrong.  It's likely that, beyond pointing out the typos, the "problem" the beta reader says he has isn't the root cause.


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## Weaver (Jun 13, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I wouldn't say that as much as I would say to take that bias into account when evaluating the feedback.
> 
> 1. I don't like reading mysteries, but that doesn't mean everything I would tell a mystery author as a beta reader is invalid.




You say you _don't like _reading mysteries.  You do not say that you _despise_ mysteries and the people who write them.  There is a difference, yes?  That's what I meant, not that people who don't usually read a genre cannot give helpful and valid feedback.




> 2. Never take any beta reader advice without thinking it through.  It's possible that the beta reader is completely wrong.  It's likely that, beyond pointing out the typos, the "problem" the beta reader says he has isn't the root cause.



Ah, if only we were more often allowed to believe that... The general view is that _The Reader Is Always Right_, and woe unto the author who suggests otherwise.


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 13, 2013)

> The general view is that The Reader Is Always Right, and woe unto the author who suggests otherwise.



That's an idiotic view, imo.  Who says that?

In fact, the well-known saying goes something like: a beta reader is almost always right when he tells you that there is a problem.  He's almost always wrong when he tells you how to solve it.

The author has ultimate responsibility for what he produces and can't slough off that responsibility on anyone, beta reader or otherwise.  I can't tell you how many times I've had two beta readers make comments about the same section of text, both pointing out a different problem.  What that tells me is that the text in that section has a problem, not that either of the beta readers are right in their diagnosis.


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## Weaver (Jun 13, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> That's an idiotic view, imo.  Who says that?



Sorry I cannot provide a list of names, as it would be rather long.  The majority of people I've encountered on peer review sites, anyway.




> In fact, the well-known saying goes something like: a beta reader is almost always right when he tells you that there is a problem.  He's almost always wrong when he tells you how to solve it.



Yeah, the one attributed to Neil Gaiman.  On this site, I've seen people use it to back up the "reader is always right" view.

(I'm not arguing.  Not even disagreeing, really, since disagreement is arguing and arguing is fighting and fighting gets a person banned from the site.  I'm just saying that I don't _understand_.)


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## BWFoster78 (Jun 13, 2013)

> The majority of people I've encountered on peer review sites, anyway.



You can't fix stupid?


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## Randy (Jun 14, 2013)

TWErvin2 said:


> *Diz*,
> 
> To add to and echo what others have said, if it's a first draft you've just finished, I'd set it aside for a while, then go back and edit and revise. Get it as clean as possible before you seek out readers for their opinion.



I do beta reading and this is more important to me than the genre I am reading. I do have a couple types of work that I despise and refuse to read, but if it is a pretty clean draft I like most anything. 

In some ways my opinion is contrary to the one that suggested finding a reader who loves the genre. I love fantasy, but I fear my love of fantasy makes me lose some of my objectivity. The say Love is Blind, and for me it is in this case.


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## Weaver (Jun 14, 2013)

Randy said:


> In some ways my opinion is contrary to the one that suggested finding a reader who loves the genre. I love fantasy, but I fear my love of fantasy makes me lose some of my objectivity. The say Love is Blind, and for me it is in this case.



Definitely.  Some people will love _anything_ within their favorite genre, no matter how good or bad it is.  Those readers are great for encouragement -- and don't underestimate how important that can be at times -- although they won't help you improve your writing.  They probably won't even be able to point to what they like about your story; to them, _everything_ is what they like about it.  They're the flip side of the ones who _hate_ anything within a particular genre to the point where they cannot even look for the things that are common to all fiction (did the plot make sense?  are the characters individual enough that the reader doesn't get them confused?) and at least give feedback on that.

If someone says "All fantasy fiction stinks," I know that person will not give valid feedback on my fantasy novel.  They have already shown a prejudice against fantasy merely for _being_ fantasy; they've already decided, before reading one word of my novel, that it's bad.  I see no possible benefit to asking that person for their opinion of my writing.


(What I want to know is, are we in any kind of agreement about the definition of "peer," or is it to be taken as sort of a general "well, you know -- people"?  Or is that too big a can of worms?)


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## skip.knox (Jun 14, 2013)

I strongly recommend some sort of critique circle, regardless of name. As someone said, Critters takes a large investment of time, but you *want* to invest that time. If not there, then somewhere else. You need your manuscript edited, but you also need to learn how to edit others' work. That will help you train your own editor. 

Imagine wanting to be a musician but not wanting to analyze anyone else's music!


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## Caged Maiden (Jun 24, 2013)

Critters demands you perform a crit a week every week about to keep yourself in good standing.  Each of those crits are on a manuscript averaging 6-8k words and they expect your commentary to add up to more than 300 words of useful comments.  It doesn't sound much like that, but I'm an avid critter, stay home with my kids, and I fell behind in six weeks.  So beware of the amount of time it takes to screen submissions for something you even WANT to read and comment on, and then how much time it takes to red and give useful insight.  You can probably expect it to take a total of 6-10 hours a week.  It isn't something you do once in a while when you feel like it, it's an actual commitment.  SO that's all I said, was beware of it.  If you have that kind of time every week and really like the set-up, it's a great site to read some good work.  Or piles of steamy crap you have to pick one to give comments on... not easy sometimes.  Also, most of it is short stories.  There are very few novels up there, which is why I didn't really benefit from it fully.  AND, to get your writing in the queue, you have to maintain your percentage, submit, and have it sit in line for about 6 weeks.  I never submitted anything, but I learned whilst on the site, that sloppy work doesn't get selected often and getting even three or four crits sometimes can be hard.  If it's worth it to you, by all means, do it.  But it was too huge a commitment for me when I wasn't even in the queue.  If I wanted four crits, I'd ask my four greatest crit partners to read.    They already know me and don't hesitate to tell me the truth.  But, I did actually meet someone on critters and I offered to trade novels with him.  It's been a great relationship and I'm really glad we met.  It wouldn't have happened without Critters.  But now our relationship is completely outside the organization, because I quit my membership for now.  I would totally do it again in the future, now that I understand what it's all about... just newcomers beware, it's a bit intense for people who haven't really got a handle on the critiquing concepts yet.  Hope that clarifies my Critters experience.


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## Weaver (Jun 24, 2013)

My opinion of Critters (yes, I tried it once) is that, because of the length requirement on critiques, some people are going to give you a long 'critique' that is useless/pointless/doesn't even apply to your story.  They just want to meet their quota, and if they can do that by flapping their hands at the keyboard like a chimp on Surge, so much the better.  This happens with _any_ such group that doesn't have some kind of quality control in place to prevent 'cheating' from the people giving feedback.  You'll get lots of people who genuinely want to help fellow writers and will honestly give their detailed opinions on whatever they read... and you'll have some who quote half your manuscript back at you word for word, add 'i like it, write more!!!' at the end, and think they deserve credit for the 300+ words of 'critique' they just gave you.

(There used to be a peer review site that _did_ have quility control built into the system:  The requirements were few and simple, but basically, people who made a habit of cheating when giving critiques didn't get their own stuff critiqued because they didn't get any credit for fakes.  Alas, the owner of the site threw a hissy-cow when someone gave _his_ writing a less-than-glowing critique, and he shut down the site.  *sigh*)


Someone made a good poing somewhere recently, that a writer ideally should have one beta reader who is also a writer and one who is not.  Writers see all the gears and pulleys of making a story run, they said, and that makes us see the story differently from how a non-writer (which is what most of out potential readers are) will see it.  The problem is that peer review sites are, by definition, full of writers.  And it's not easy to find someone who doesn't write but is still in the habit of paying attention to what they read closely enough to be able to tell the author what they liked  - and didn't like - about the story, and why.


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## Philip Overby (Jun 25, 2013)

I found an interesting site not long ago called YouWriteOn. You can upload novel excerpts or short stories and from what I understand your excerpt is then sent out to random people who read and rate it. It seems less intensive than Critters (which I also joined and it just seemed too much for me; it feels like it's more for people who have loads of time) so that may appeal to some people.

It's worth a look!


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## Diz (Jul 2, 2013)

That seems like a nice site, but I'm worried that my story would have too many typos and grammar issues.


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## TWErvin2 (Jul 2, 2013)

Diz said:


> That seems like a nice site, but I'm worried that my story would have too many typos and grammar issues.



Diz,

If your draft has these issues (too many grammar concerns and typos), it's really not ready to have readers. As I stated in a previous post in this thread, those will distract the reader, if not become their focus, and they won't be able to help you where the story really might need attention. 

Plus, a draft that has those concerns and typos will deter someone from reading another draft of a different novel in the future. It could leave a bad taste in their mouth.

It doesn't have to be perfect, but if you know there are errors bad enough for a certain website to submit to, why would it be good enough for any reader who's willing to assist you?

Work on fixing those errors.  One way is to read the piece aloud. It takes time but items of concern will rise to the surface. Read it backwards, paragraph by paragraph. You won't get caught up in the story as much and will catch some things.

While writing can be exciting and fun, it is also a lot of work and time consuming.

Good luck as you move forward.


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