# Royal titles?



## Lavender

What is the difference(s) between Your Majesty, Your Highness, Sire, My Liege etc etc. Also, is the "your" and "my" capitalised or not? Are different members of the royal family referred to with different titles?


I also have another question. The ruler of my world is referred to as Prince - he married the Queen, who is now deceased. They had no children. The Queen was the carrier of the original royal bloodline, her husband a nobleman she went on to marry.
Would he automatically have become ruler as I am assuming, and if so, would he be referred to as Prince or King or something else?
He has two younger sisters - would they be princesses?
Towards the end, the Prince is asassinated - would his eldest sister then become ruler?

Any information on this would be greatly appreciated.

(P.S would just like to point out this research section is absolutely wonderful - you guys are so knowledgeable and helpful, its helped me a lot so far )


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## ArelEndan

If you're basing your fantasy on England, these are websites I've found helpful: Forms of address in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and How to Formally Address British Royalty and Aristocracy in Person. Basically, Your Majesty is used when first addressing the king or queen, then Sir, Sire, or Ma'am after that. Princes and Princesses are first addressed as Your Royal Highness and thereafter as Sir or Ma'am. Grammatically, "Your" and "My" are capitalized because they function as part of a name. 

Laws of inheritance in that situation will entirely depend on the rules you set up for your world. I think in many cultures of our world, inheritance would pass to the queen's closest blood relative, but you can change that for your world. If the rules you set up are internally consistent and the characters accept them, chances are readers will find it believable as well.


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## Ireth

To my knowledge, a King or Queen is referred to as Your Majesty, while a prince or princess is called Your Highness.


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## Jess A

Your Prince could also be 'Prince Consort' and styled 'Your Royal Highness'. 'Prince' is probably common. Not entirely sure about the specifics. Wikipedia: Prince consort - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have a question here also.

Some novels I've read capitalise a person's title. 'The Earl said this'. 'The evil such-and-such attacked the Prince'. Yet I've been reading a Robin Hobb novel and she sometimes uses capitals and then other times, she doesn't. I can't work out if there's some small grammar issue there or if she is being inconsistent. It doesn't even appear to be a difference between 'a prince' and 'the Prince' (i.e. referring to some random, undefined prince or alternatively, referring to an actual person, hence 'the' and capital 'P').


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## Graylorne

Your Prince wouldn't automatically become ruler, unless local law said so. First the Ministers will look for any living relatives, however far removed (good example is the War of the Roses). Only when there are no cousins or bastards to cousins left, the throne would be declared vacant. Then the Ministers, Royal Council or whatever would convene and choose a successor from among the highest nobility. It is however possible that until then the Prince could claim the Regency. He would then be called Prince Regent and rule in name of his late wife.

When the Prince dies, the Court takes over, probably the Lord Chancellor or whoever is senior.

The Prince’s two sisters would be styled through their father's rank. So if the father of the Prince & his sisters was a duke, they would be Lady Mary/Lady Ann. Only if their father was a prince by rights of his own would they be called princesses. Their brother’s title doesn’t influence them. Girls as a rule didn't inherit titles (there were exceptions) and only got them through marriage. If this Lady Mary marries an earl, she would become countess Mary. They too would be out of the royal line of succession.

Majesty is a title for Emperors and Kings since Emperor Charles V first claimed it. The Kings of France & England followed him, not wanting to be thought less important. Before this, English Kings were Highness or Your Grace. Noblemen were only My Lord (Kings are not nobility, they create it). 

NB: But as ArelEndan already said, you can adjust these rules to your own liking, as long as they sound convincing. 

Liege is the word used for your Liege Lord, the owner of the lands a nobleman holds. For example, After 1066 the English Kings were also Duke of Normandy and the King of France what their liege lord. Or a baron can be liege man to an earl as liege lord. These are feudal matters and you could search there.

Capitals — In my books I only use capitals for their Highnesses the King and Queen (and foreign rulers), not for the nobility. It’s only a matter of preference and I think a load of capitals  make for uneasy reading. I do use capitals for concepts like Court and Lord Chancellor, because these words have also lesser meanings.


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## Ravana

You can also refer to this thread:

http://mythicscribes.com/forums/research/2615-royal-noble-courts.html

Which was a few pages deep, so I can see why you overlooked it. 

It also contains a link to another thread, rich in inspiration if dubious in historical accuracy.…


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## Jess A

Ravana said:


> You can also refer to this thread:
> 
> http://mythicscribes.com/forums/research/2615-royal-noble-courts.html
> 
> Which was a few pages deep, so I can see why you overlooked it.
> 
> It also contains a link to another thread, rich in inspiration if dubious in historical accuracy.…



Yes I was most pleased with the responses to that thread. I have it bookmarked so that I can refer to it when I need it.


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## Jess A

I misread the first post. Must have been in a rush to leave, I apologise.

I agree with the above that the title would usually pass to the Queen's closest relative (upon the Prince's death) and that the Prince's sisters would be titled according to their father. Though in the 17th century, some Dukes named their heirs 'prince'. There was also a novel I read where the Duke's children were princes and princesses, but the Duke himself was also a prince, I think, or at least of the royal family (i.e. a cousin to the King or similar). You can play with the rules. In your land, the Prince's family may become elevated or the Queen might favour them with royal titles. It might not be the done thing in most countries here, but it might be normal in your world. I think your readers would be very comfortable with that. 

Perhaps her nobleman/Prince was a Duke and her second or third cousin. Cousins did marry to keep the line going. As a relative to the Queen, the Prince might even be one of the few relatives to the royal line left (and his sisters), especially if his parents are both deceased. So if this nobleman/Duke was also an heir in his own right, then yes, he could become ruler when his queen dies and his eldest sister might be next in line (providing women can inherit). Someone mentioned the War of the Roses above. That is a good topic to research. Your nobleman may have been of a different House/surname if his relation to the Queen/royalty is through his mother. 

I hope this makes sense. I hope somebody can correct me if I am wrong. I tend to draw out family trees to help me make sense of the royal family and the higher noble families. This way I can work out who is closest to the throne (potential heirs), and who might have motives to take the throne or cause conflict. I can work out who owns what land and who holds what peerage title (Duke, Earl etc).


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## Graylorne

Good suggestion, Little Storm Cloud. Yes, if the Prince were himself a cousin of the Crown, his chances on succeeding would be better. These chances would depend on his personality and his standing at Court as much as upon his lineage. If his claim was strong and he himself deemed capable, I'd say he would stand a good chance at being accepted, were he to declare himself King. Then he could name his sisters a princess. They wouldn't become one automatically; it were generally courtesy titles.


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## JCFarnham

I've also heard of the title Serene Highness refering to some princes, or sons of nobility.


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## Lavender

Some really great info here guys, thank you to all of you


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## Jess A

JCFarnham said:


> I've also heard of the title Serene Highness refering to some princes, or sons of nobility.



Some writers create their own forms of address as well.


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## Graylorne

Serene Highness is the style of the Princes of Monaco & Liechtenstein.

And to be concise, 'Your Higness' and all such are styles, manners of address, not titles like Duke, King or Baron


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## Caged Maiden

This is some good info:  Life in Elizabethan England 13: Titles and Forms of Address

So people are referred to by their title.  If you are speaking of a person with noble title, you refer to them either by name or by title.  Some people have multiple titles, and though it could be confusing to bounce around in a novel between these, you could use it to show how people refer to their peers, their betters, and those they outrank.

Clergy also had titles, and though some things changed from place to place and time period to time period, if you pick something which fits your world, just stick with it.

In The Germanies, people were referred to differently, all sons of lords being styled "My Lord" whereas in England, only the oldest son was styled such, but all daughters were "My Lady".

Also, in what is now Italy, there were merchant class people who actually held more power than blood nobility and were sort of promoted, enjoying forms of address that matched their status.  I use this sort of thing in my world.  England's system is one of the more restrictive for differentiating between wealth, power, inheritance, etc.


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## Caged Maiden

Also, regarding capitalization, wherever a form of address is substituting for a name, it is capitalized because it is then  proper noun, examples:

"His Grace is angry with Lord Pembroke because my mistress, Lady Margaret favors him."  Did you catch all those?  HA! His Grace (because it substitutes for a name), Lord Pembroke (again because lord fills the place of his name), my mistress (meaning the woman I work for), and Lady Margaret (a substitute for her name).

So I think I got them all in there, but I'm sure there are other examples to be had.  Hope that helps.  Some authors do not capitalize the "my" in My Lord.  Whatever their reason, it is incorrect, but people seem to accept it if it is consistent, even in modern court transcriptions and such. 

These are both written correctly:

 "But, my lord sent me to find it." 

"Of course My Lord, I will go find it."  

This is technically incorrect:

"Of course my Lord, I will go find it."


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## Caged Maiden

It kinda goes along with the above, so I'll do another post about places and times.

The way that My Lord gets capitalized, so does Western Europe.  When the direction is part of the proper noun, it also gets capitalized, and the same thing goes for time periods.  Renaissance, Middle Ages, Dark Ages, Valentine's Day, Bastille Day, French Revolution, First Crusade. (Names of wars are capitalized, as are important days.  However, seasons are never capitalized unless personified eg. spring is my favorite season.  It was the face of Summer, her radiant locks of golden grain swaying in the wind...)

I can go into more details, but I just wanted to add this because it goes along with the question of when to capitalize things and I thought this was a good similar issue.


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## Graylorne

Good advice, Caged Maiden. I put it on my list of grammar-to-remember. Thanks.


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## Lavender

Caged Maiden said:


> It kinda goes along with the above, so I'll do another post about places and times.
> 
> The way that My Lord gets capitalized, so does Western Europe.  When the direction is part of the proper noun, it also gets capitalized, and the same thing goes for time periods.  Renaissance, Middle Ages, Dark Ages, Valentine's Day, Bastille Day, French Revolution, First Crusade. (Names of wars are capitalized, as are important days.  However, seasons are never capitalized unless personified eg. spring is my favorite season.  It was the face of Summer, her radiant locks of golden grain swaying in the wind...)
> 
> I can go into more details, but I just wanted to add this because it goes along with the question of when to capitalize things and I thought this was a good similar issue.



I think you are referring to what are known as 'proper nouns' - names of places, people etc. 

I have different names for seasons in my world and I do capitalise these, but I'm consistent with it so I reckon that should be ok?

Thanks for your help.


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## Jess A

Caged Maiden: I see why 'My Lord' and 'Your Grace' would be capitalised. I can also see why '...my Prince' might have a capital 'P' when a person is talking directly to the prince. Would the same be true for 'Princess' if they are using that instead of her name? I am short on time, but perhaps later I might provide some examples of sentences in Robin Hobb's novel where she has been inconsistent or adhering to a rule of grammar that I haven't picked up. I know most readers don't notice these things, but I notice, so I want to get it correct.


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## Caged Maiden

Whenever you use a form of address, whether it is My Prince, or whatever, you are essentially turning it into a proper noun (someone's name).

Yes I understand what a proper noun is, Lavender, so I don't understand what that comment referred to.  I used the word proper noun in my comment, so was there some confusion?  I only differentiated between Western Europe and say, western bank of the Mississippi River.  In the second, western is not capitalized because the word western is attached and describes the bank, which is not a proper noun, where Western Texas would be.  Same with the Great Plains and Old Forest, but the west field of my university campus and the old forest by my house would not be capitalized.  I hope that clarifies.  I'm no expert.

Time periods and wars are capitalized.  So you might say, "The Black Death in the fourteenth century, was before the Renaissance came to England.  It was unfortunate how it coincided with the Hundred Year's War and left devastation in its wake."

I don't know whether that clarifies anything which I might have left unclear.

The fact that some authors are inconsistent does not mean they are right (or wrong), but merely that they made a choice to write how they wanted to.  I can only say what is grammatically correct, and in the sentence: "Yes, My Prince, I saddled your horse." It is correct to capitalize the "my" because it is a substitute for his name.  Would it also be true if I said, "Go on, Ugly, fetch me my horse."?  Well I should think it would be the same.  I am using a word to stand in for someone's name. I haven't seen many examples of this, but if anyone can point us to a source, I would be very interested in the answer to that.

If we were simply saying, "Go on, boy, fetch me my horse." I think it remains lower case.  Which is strange, because "you" is not capitalized, and I don't think boy (or some other informal address would be).  We have crossed over into a realm of grammar and capitalization that I am not sure about.


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## Jess A

Yes perhaps it is a matter of choice for Robin Hobb. She does have characters referring to a character in the way you mention: "Come here, fitz!" That later becomes his name (hence capitalised), but at the start, it is other people referring to him as a bastard, a 'fitz', similar to "Come here, boy!" 

There will always be confusion in some areas of grammar and always something to learn. It is an interesting topic nonetheless. Proper nouns make perfect sense to me with regards to place names and in most cases, titles and forms of address. It is just inconsistency which has confused me. I don't want to drown my works with too many capitals if not necessary, but I have always favoured using capitals for 'Prince' and 'Duke' and 'King' as it sounds correct to me.


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## Benjamin Clayborne

Caged Maiden said:


> The fact that some authors are inconsistent does not mean they are right (or wrong), but merely that they made a choice to write how they wanted to.  I can only say what is grammatically correct, and in the sentence: "Yes, My Prince, I saddled your horse." It is correct to capitalize the "my" because it is a substitute for his name.  Would it also be true if I said, "Go on, Ugly, fetch me my horse."?  Well I should think it would be the same.  I am using a word to stand in for someone's name. I haven't seen many examples of this, but if anyone can point us to a source, I would be very interested in the answer to that.



In my NIP I'm choosing not to capitalize "my lord" or "my lady" or "m'lord" or "m'lady" at any point, mostly because I think it looks extremely weird and distracting to do so. Titles are only capitalized as part of a proper name (e.g. the word "princess" would only be capitalized if you were using the person's name, as in "That is Princess Taya" or "Hello, Princess Taya" but not "That is the princess" or "Hello, princess" or even "Yes, your highness"). It's internally consistent.

Capitalizing "m'lord" is impossible to make not look weird (I tried), and it would be even weirder to not capitalize "m'lord" but to capitalize "My Lord."

In general, I wouldn't capitalize "Ugly" in your example unless that was a nickname for the person. Imagine if instead of "ugly" you called him "fatass" or "stupid" or "moron." It would seem really odd to me to capitalize any of those. Words that substitute for someone's name don't always need to be capitalized (e.g. "him").


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## Caged Maiden

"Yes, Your Highness," is correct.  Any honorific form of address is capitalized in its entirety because it becomes a proper noun.


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## Benjamin Clayborne

GRRM doesn't seem to quite agree; he capitalizes "Your Grace" in his books but not "my lady" or "my lord." I'm going to stick with what I've got.


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## Jess A

Back to titles. 

How do you refer to a Duke when you introduce him to someone else? I know 'His Grace' and 'Your Grace'. I noted on that site posted by Caged Maiden:



> Francis Russell, the Earl of Bedford can be called Lord Bedford.


 (Life in Elizabethan England 13: Titles and Forms of Address)

How would one refer to the Duke of Norfolk, for example? I understand 'His Grace the Duke of Norfolk'. But I have heard, say, a King refer to that specific Duke simply as 'Norfolk' in general conversation when talking to the Duke "Norfolk, I have a proposition". Some novels have 'Duke (first name)', perhaps by their own preference. Or 'Lord (first name or surname)', Duke of (place). 

Sometimes I think authors play with this system to their own liking to simplify reading for their audience. Looking at Feist for example, reading 'Duke Borric' is simpler than 'Duke of Crydee' (etc) as readers may quickly forget the person's first name. Anyone find this acceptable/unacceptable? I suppose few readers would care about the specifics.


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## Graylorne

A nobleman could call the Duke of Norfolk just Norfolk, or just Duke; formally my Lord Duke. 

He could call an earl just Bedford, or formally lord Bedford, or call him Francis, if a friend. 

If you said Lord John, you'd be talking about a younger son, or a brother. Lord John Hastings, brother to the Earl of Bedford. For Bedford is the title of the head of the house, not the family name (Hastings). And here this Lord is a courtesy title.

When he talks *of *the Duke, he'd probably say Norfolk, Bedford or, if it's about the brother, John Hastings.

A commoner would say Your Grace or My Lord.

I'm perfectly fine with Duke Borric, the Kingdom of the Isles isn't very strong on protocol.


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## Jess A

Graylorne said:


> A nobleman could call the Duke of Norfolk just Norfolk, or just Duke; formally my Lord Duke.
> 
> He could call an earl just Bedford, or formally lord Bedford, or call him Francis, if a friend.
> 
> If you said Lord John, you'd be talking about a younger son, or a brother. Lord John Hastings, brother to the Earl of Bedford. For Bedford is the title of the head of the house, not the family name (Hastings). And here this Lord is a courtesy title.
> 
> When he talks *of *the Duke, he'd probably say Norfolk, Bedford or, if it's about the brother, John Hastings.
> 
> A commoner would say Your Grace or My Lord.



Thank you - this makes perfect sense and glues together the little bits of fractured knowledge running about my brain.



> I'm perfectly fine with Duke Borric, the Kingdom of the Isles isn't very strong on protocol.



Heh that is a truth. I suppose the point here is that in an area where protocol is important, it would be a different story.


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## Caged Maiden

I guess whatever you used as honorific titles, whether Your Excellency, My Lord, His Grace, The Right Honorable Lord Chancellor, or whatever, your imagination can be your guide in a fantasy novel.


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## T.Allen.Smith

With these kinds of issues I've always felt that consistency is the key. Keeping the reader from noticing the writing is more important to me than following proper etiquette.

Plus, like CM just said, it's a fantasy world for most of us. How the characters address each other is ultimately the authors choice.

The only exception to this that I can think of would be in writing a historical fantasy, like Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norell.


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## Graylorne

Of course, it's just that as with so many other things, it's handy to have a basic idea of what you're writing. That goes for titles as well as for ships, blacksmithing or horses.


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## Zophos

Consistency is the key and you can do it however you like. Generally, the grammatically correct way to do it in most languages is determined by the definite or indefinite article that precedes the name, even if it is dropped. The Lord of Cornwall v. a lord of Cornwall. It may also depend on the point of view of your speaker.

You can also make up your own rules as these are generally linguistic, cultural and philologic rules of syntax, and you most likely made up all three of those elements for your novel. An example would be putting a period outside a quotation mark or capitalizing racial, lineal, regional, directional or even colloquial adjectives and adverbs. 

A good example of this from my writing is that I capitalize "god" and "man" when I am referring to the plural form of those two common nouns. "When God gave Man breath." "When Man has forsaken himself." "When a god dallies with Man."



Caged Maiden said:


> ... "But, my lord sent me to find it."
> ....



Case in point of point of view being important. If the speaker were speaking to his lord, it could be "But, My Lord sent me to find it." If the speaker were speaking to someone else, it could be as above.



Caged Maiden said:


> ...However, seasons are never capitalized unless personified eg. spring is my favorite season.  It was the face of Summer, her radiant locks of golden grain swaying in the wind.....



Excellent point and a frequent mistake.


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## Jess A

I agree with consistency. But I like to first learn real-world examples where possible and then modify where necessary to suit the book (and the reader). Sometimes the various styles of address are a confusing mouthful and I don't want to confuse my readers, but I would like to maintain at least some sense of authenticity, even if just a touch. 

Zophos: Ah. Definite and indefinite article. That is what I was trying to refer to before. A specific 'Lord' and any 'lord'.


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## ALB2012

Nvm. Someone else said what I was going too and after I wrote it I discovered it was gibberish.
I know I struggled with whether it should be My Lord, my Lord or my lord in my own books.


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