# Fireballs



## Grand Lord BungleFic (Feb 24, 2013)

Here's my dilemma: my main character is a wizard.  In the first draft of my book I had him using fireballs in battle scenes. In one, it's key to the whole scene. In another scene (not a battle scene) it has symbolic importance. 

Since I wrote the first draft I've come to see fireballs as too cliche. I know how some successful authors have handled this: Terry Goodkind just gave them a different name and SLIGHTLY different properties. 

Any thoughts?  Should I just get rid of them entirely or try to find a way to "freshen" the concept of the fireball?


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## OGone (Feb 24, 2013)

It depends entirely on how the wizard can throw his fireballs. If you have a good magic system, then good. If he can just throw fireballs because... he can throw fireballs... then I would try to freshen it up, definitely. What is the symbolic importance? If you need fireballs - use them! But there's a bunch of other stuff you can do. Have him be a thermomancer and throw waves of heat, maybe the fire not being fire in the traditional sense and being dark energy or something, give the fireballs a liquidy, plasma splash effect, or change the color?

It depends on how you need them to be symbolic. As a general rule though if you need something, use it. Nobody's going to read a fantasy novel, see the use of fireballs, think "nope" and close the book unless you're using a bunch of other cliches already.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Feb 25, 2013)

Don't buy in to "This is cliche" doubting that every author faces at one time or another in every work they write. It's all in the way you present a topic that determines if the story element feels fresh or whether it reads like something ripped from an RPG manual.

As fantasy writers working with magic systems, it's important to have an understanding of the concepts behind creating plausible magic. There are loads of resources available on this topic, both online and in print. The underlying theme, however, involves the limitations and price of magic use. In that light, I'd ask you what the costs are to throwing a fireball for your magic user? What limitations does the use of a spell like this have?

I have no idea what defines magic in your world. However, just for the sake of example, let's assume...

The fireball spell is powerful on the battlefield, working much like a flaming grenade with good range. However, it takes hours to prepare the spell. Rare components have to be mixed, a ceremony or ritual is acted out (uninterrupted), etc. Further, maybe the magic involved here is so powerful that any other magic is unable to be used by the caster who has a fireball prepared. Let's further assume that your caster once found himself in a position where he needed healing magic but didn't have it readily available because he had fireball prepared. As a result, someone close to him died. He questions himself every time he thinks he may need fireball. Now this example is fairly generic and only meant to illustrate a point (but I hope you get the idea).

Point is, there are loads of directions you can take as an author that make magic something far greater than just a finger wiggle and a kaboom. In high fantasy, there may be magic all around. In low fantasy its use may be rare and more subtle. Regardless, magic should always have costs and limitations that are part of the story, effects that impact your characters and prohibit the use of magic as a get out of jail free card (overpowered or deus ex machina).

Hope that helps.


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## Mindfire (Feb 25, 2013)

_Everything_ is cliche. It's the price we pay for living in the internet age. Just roll with it.


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## ThinkerX (Feb 25, 2013)

Even my wimpy wizards can manage a fireball...though its not exactly the conventional sort of fireball, and was inspired by a real world incident:

When I built my house, the practice was to burn leftover scraps.  There was one pile of scraps I didn't get to until the next year.  So I go out there, stare at the very slightly damp pile for a bit, then head over to the junker car I kept running via modern day 'magic potions'.  I took out several not quite empty bottles of said magic potions and dumped (I thought) all their contents onto the scrap heap.  Then I remembered I'd forgotten the matches.  Head into the house, come back out, strike match next to pile - and get a real close up view of a fireball four feet across which took out the elbows on my shirt.  Step back a bit.  Decide it might be a good idea to head indoors and see what else is scorched (like eyebrows).  Fire is just starting to buzz along.  Make it almost to the door...when the one not completely empty 'magic potion' bottle explodes with enough force to hurl twenty pound chunks of wood twenty feet through the air.  THAT big of an explosion from less than a quarter ounce of flamable liquid in a metal bottle the size of a soft drink can.

When I started writing again many years later, I remembered that incident, and decided that was a legit way for even minor mages like mine to manage a flashy fireball - they hurl sealed metal containers with a dab of something highly flamable in them at their foes, which they detonate with a tiny jot of power.


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## Mindfire (Feb 25, 2013)

ThinkerX said:


> When I started writing again many years later, I remembered that incident, and decided that was a legit way for even minor mages like mine to manage a flashy fireball - they hurl sealed metal containers with a dab of something highly flamable in them at their foes, which they detonate with a tiny jot of power.



In other words, they invented grenades.


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## ThinkerX (Feb 25, 2013)

> In other words, they invented grenades.



'magical grenades'...

...although thats pretty much what the original AD&D 'fireball' spell was anyhow.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Feb 25, 2013)

I don't do the ball thing, personally - I prefer blasts or jets. Frankly, I'm not sure why everyone decided fire magic should come as balls.


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## Sheilawisz (Feb 25, 2013)

I would go with fireballs of a different color, maybe purple, green or blue =)

You can also add some unusual magical properties to your fireballs, like the power to follow its intended victims once the fire has been released... It can also be a fire that burns the very soul of victims and not just their bodies, or maybe a type of fire that is very difficult to extinguish by natural means.

Jets or blasts of fire like Anders says are also great ideas!!

You should not seek to drop entirely the concept of fireballs, after all it's a Fantasy _classic_ and if you like it, then you should keep it in your story. I believe that as Fantasy writers it's very important to feel good with our own stories, so if you really like a style of Magic, then go for it...


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## SeverinR (Feb 25, 2013)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> I don't do the ball thing, personally - I prefer blasts or jets. Frankly, I'm not sure why everyone decided fire magic should come as balls.


Maybe they are compesating for something maybe?  

Perfect cover article for this thread:

Give Your ClichÃ©s a Makeover!


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## Addison (Feb 25, 2013)

Finding out how magic works to better suit your story, your world, is tricky. That's because you've read so many fantasy books and seen how other authors have done it. A way that helped me is reading the originals, fairy tales and fables from all cultures. Read the mythology and folk lore of each culture, how each one believed magic worked. 

Personally, for my world, magic with the elements works in few ways. Using fire either takes; a wand, spell components (add this to that and blow) a flint and steel to make a spark which the wizard feeds into flame, or by evocation. In the latter, fireballs are beginner spells.


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## Saigonnus (Feb 25, 2013)

I have a transmuter use a gout of flame that shoots out 60 feet or more (like a flamethrower) instead of a thrown fireball, and only on a spur of the moment; defend ones self as dark ones come charging out of the forest to attack innocents. I think if it works to have a wizard throwing fireballs, then go for it. Maybe you could make it more like napalm, it sticks to the victims to have a persistant damaging effect rather then just "roll on the ground to extinguish your smoldering clothes" (assuming you survive that is).


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## MrChristopher (Feb 26, 2013)

OGone said:


> It depends on how you need them to be symbolic. As a general rule though if you need something, use it. Nobody's going to read a fantasy novel, see the use of fireballs, think "nope" and close the book unless you're using a bunch of other cliches already.



I agree with this. A wizard throwing fireballs won't turn a reader off. However from my own experience an inconsistent magic system will. I remember putting down a novel because the wizards abilities seemed to change from chapter to chapter. I'd focus more on that to be honest and wouldnt fret over whether your character uses fireballs vs lightning bolts vs ruby quartz optic blasts


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## Queshire (Feb 26, 2013)

The Dresden Files series of books by Jim Butcher features several different styles of fire magic. The main character in particular tends to prefer streams of fire like a flamethrower to traditional fireballs, while another character uses thin piercing, essentially laser beams, of fire, and I think there was another minor character in one of the books is described as throwing little stars of fire. It's been awhile since I read it so I might be misremembering.

Personally, I would suggest something more evocative than a bog-standard fireball. To use gaming terms, you don't have to change the mechanical aspects of the fire any, but just changing the fluff describing it would give the whole thing a fresh take on the whole thing. Perhaps have them create pillars of fire or something?


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Feb 26, 2013)

My main objection to fireballs is that they're so bloody inefficient, burning off who knows how much of their energy in visual and thermal radiation, when the same energy turned into a focused IR photon beam would be far more destructive.


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## SeverinR (Mar 1, 2013)

One problem I ahve with magic,
In real life, if something works, why not use it everytime.
Why use fire once, then the next time, use a blast of energy.
If fire worked the first time, why not the second?
Granted, writers want to share different magic to show off their system, but humans are creatures of habit, they continue to use the same thing over and over again.
Maybe including why a mage uses a different magic for similar actions. Be it, limited number of uses per day/studied period. Maybe less energy, but still effective, or someother minor difference, such as maybe the targets are wet, fire would be less effective while energy might be more effective.


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## Queshire (Mar 1, 2013)

well the thing about new weapons is that if you keep relying on them then people will come up with ways to counter them. If you're known for flinging fire balls all around then you're pretty much ****ed when someone wises up and decides to wear fire resistant armor. That said, if you're creative enough with your one spell you can get around even something like that, for instance superheating a tree to cause it to explode and pepper the enemy with slivers.


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## Benjamin Clayborne (Mar 1, 2013)

SeverinR said:


> One problem I ahve with magic,
> In real life, if something works, why not use it everytime.
> Why use fire once, then the next time, use a blast of energy.
> If fire worked the first time, why not the second?
> ...



*SPOILERS AHOY* about the Wheel of Time



Spoiler: wheel of time



One thing that bugged me about the Last Battle in _A Memory of Light_ is that the Aes Sedai would use all these big, showy, inefficient methods of killing Trollocs. Waves of Fire, mounds of Earth, stuff like that. I'm sitting there thinking, why not just one simple sharp weave of Air, and just swing it back and forth, slicing everything to ribbons? It could be tiny and require very little power.

In fact one of the funniest things in the book is when Androl shows up at Cairhien and opens up gateways into Dragonmount. For him, opening a gateway is incredibly easy, and Dragonmount is full of boiling magma, so basically he incinerates most of an army of Trollocs just by opening a giant gateway. Way more effective. In the real world, people who had the One Power at their disposal would quickly find much more efficient ways to use it than the Aes Sedai ever did.


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## wordwalker (Mar 2, 2013)

SeverinR said:


> One problem I ahve with magic,
> In real life, if something works, why not use it everytime.
> Why use fire once, then the next time, use a blast of energy.
> If fire worked the first time, why not the second?
> ...





Queshire said:


> well the thing about new weapons is that if you keep relying on them then people will come up with ways to counter them. If you're known for flinging fire balls all around then you're pretty much ****ed when someone wises up and decides to wear fire resistant armor. That said, if you're creative enough with your one spell you can get around even something like that, for instance superheating a tree to cause it to explode and pepper the enemy with slivers.



A point. There ought to be characters who are struggling to get one spell combat-ready (most worlds don't have _too_ many wizards able to function in battle) and have to rely on their specialty, and some who could be a bit beyond that but get lazy-- and both of them might pay for it. The most impressive wizards would branch out from there and would be experts at which thing to use when: "fire's good for pushing through the castle, if it doesn't burn them the lingering heat will drive them back-- stick to wind when we need to knock them over and follow up fast-- cheapest way to hold the one door is to pour my power into protection spells on The Champion and watch him go..."

Ideally, a wizard would prefer to use the environment rather than do all the work himself: seal this door, smash that bridge under the Balrog, and so on. At least, when it's convincing the terrain advantage is more powerful than the magic it takes to set it off (too many bloodless cartoons imply every enemy's more blast-resistant than the ceiling above it).

And I've always enjoyed the Creative Wizard Duels where both sides seem to be struggling to be more indirect in their attacks. That is, if it's because both are _very_ good at spotting and countering any "Why don't you just zap him?" moves.


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## Kittywithpen (Mar 4, 2013)

I can only say what everyone else said, but here's my take on it...

You've an ISO-standard, 20ft-radius fireball. What is a fireball? A lot of heat, yes, but we're just scratching the surface  If we play the Fireball completely straight, no dark energy, no thermal magic etc, it's still a big bloody explosion. The people who get flash-fried are the lucky ones. Overpressure, Blast, Shrapnel, that's what happens if they're not so lucky. They're just words, but imagine finding your foe's bones shattered, innards liquified, eyes ruptured. Imagine him being flung through the air as if by a Giant's hands, crashing into a stone wall, or the very stone becoming deadly screaming missiles hurling towards him like a shotgun blast. 

Even without altering a fireball, it can be used in many ways. If you have orcs down a corridor, send one down to fill the hallway with flame. See a room filled with bones and foes? Make them into missiles to cut them down. If you have men on horseback charging you, have a fireball go off ten feet above them in the air. 

Now i'm scared...


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## Mindfire (Mar 7, 2013)

Benjamin Clayborne said:


> *SPOILERS AHOY* about the Wheel of Time
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe the Aes Sedai's inefficiency is intentionally part of their character?


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## Mindfire (Mar 7, 2013)

wordwalker said:


> And I've always enjoyed the Creative Wizard Duels where both sides seem to be struggling to be more indirect in their attacks. That is, if it's because both are _very_ good at spotting and countering any "Why don't you just zap him?" moves.



As a small aside, the reason most Jedi and Sith don't just instantly force choke/blast each other into oblivion is that a skilled force user can instantly counter such an obvious attack. Thus they must resort to lightsaber combat until one of them spots a convenient opening to use their powers. Or manages to stab the other in the face, whichever comes first.


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## S.T. Ockenner (Dec 22, 2020)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> I don't do the ball thing, personally - I prefer blasts or jets. Frankly, I'm not sure why everyone decided fire magic should come as balls.





Spoiler: Somewhat dirty joke



Gross men who love fire


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## Spacebar (Dec 29, 2020)

You could realistically emphasize how hot a ball of fire actually is.  For example, in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, the actor Rick Dalton uses a flame thrower for a role and complains about how hot it is to the prop guy, who responds, "It's a flamethrower."  Fire is hot.  A ball of fire close to your face is very very hot.  How does your wizard deal with this problem?


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## S.T. Ockenner (Feb 15, 2021)

Here's a good description of a fireball:
Wob snarled at Alavax and spun his index fingers in semicircles, pencil-thin lines of flame tracing the air. Unpronounceable hisses came from his hairy lips, fangs dripping with amber blood. As Alavax slowly realized what was happening, a small glob of orange, shining energy appeared in between the space of Wob’s two fingers as he brought them to a position of facing each other. The lines of flame filled the growing orb, heat tingling on Wob’s skin as his fingers drew closer together. The orb flew out of Wob’s black, burnt fingers and leaped at Alavax’s chest, leaving a short trail of flame. The fire hit Alavax in his steel plated mail, melting it into golden wax. The fire spread across Alavax’s body as a scream escaped his dying lips. He collapsed to the ground, dead. 
Wob's Fireball


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## Queshire (Feb 16, 2021)

EX-PLOSION! =0

Ahem, anyways,  one form of magic I want to use somwhere requires a "source" for magic. A basic fireball might have you draw on your body heat for fire, your breath for air and mix those two together for a boom. A more advanced battlemage might bring along a shit ton of bullets to draw fire from the gunpowder or pull it from a car's engine. A dedicated fire witch might weave the essence of fire into their own soul. At the small cost of having hair that flows like fire and ash constantly falling from her black witch's dress she'd get tremendous fire power.


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## S.T. Ockenner (Feb 16, 2021)

Queshire said:


> EX-PLOSION! =0
> 
> Ahem, anyways,  one form of magic I want to use somwhere requires a "source" for magic. A basic fireball might have you draw on your body heat for fire, your breath for air and mix those two together for a boom. A more advanced battlemage might bring along a shit ton of bullets to draw fire from the gunpowder or pull it from a car's engine. A dedicated fire witch might weave the essence of fire into their own soul. At the small cost of having hair that flows like fire and ash constantly falling from her black witch's dress she'd get tremendous fire power.


Very good idea, Quesh! I hadn't thought of that!


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