# Using other cultures to create your own



## Dr Steve Brule (Feb 19, 2017)

This could have also gone into the writing questions section but felt it was more of a world building theme.

I have been reading (technically listening to the audiobook) of the Journey to the West. It is a really great story and I admit I have always liked Asian culture history. I have messing around with ideas for a story set in a fictional world with an eastern touch to it. My question is how does one go about creating a spin off culture without it being offensive/bad?

First let me state that I am not a writer that is afraid of upsetting certain groups of people. No my story might not have race X in it, no I won't add them just because some people are offended by it. When I mention it being offensive, I mean it in a way that doesn't seem "cheap" in relation to the actual culture. I can't really put it into words that well but I hope you understand what I'm getting at. It's not that anything in my book would be racist, but rather maybe a lot of bad portrayals of Eastern beliefs/society.

Take this for example: Suppose I use a mixture of Chinese and Japanese names. I see two potential problems:
1) Mixing Chinese and Japanese elements together
2) Asian names are usually combinations of characters that complement each other to form a whole name (think of kanji) If I just make a name because it sounds good, suppose either the prefix or suffix has real meaning. 

I think if I were of Asian origin if these 2 things would throw me off, or at least chuckle at them. Or suppose I were to watch a film about Egypt. Just because there are pyramids, pharaohs, and Egyptian themes, the portrayal could be way off from how that society actually lived/functioned; either through lack of depth or at the opposite side, over emphasis.  


Does anyone have any experience with this? If so, can you give me some advice and perhaps some examples of your own work?


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## TheKillerBs (Feb 19, 2017)

Using a mixture of Chinese and Japanese is really simple, mostly because Japanese has been so influenced by Chinese. Also if your method of making an "Asian" culture is to mix Chinese and Japanese culture together, you're doing it wrong. Start from the underlying causes and build up from that, not from the superficial elements down.


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## oenanthe (Feb 19, 2017)

oh boy.

maybe reconsider this, if you're heading toward publishing?


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## Mythopoet (Feb 19, 2017)

If you're going to use real cultures, you should do your research. No excuses. You should not have only a superficial understanding of a culture. And mixing and matching two (or more) different cultures is a very risky business. You may not be worried about causing offense, but you also run the risk of the amalgamation just not feeling genuine. I tend to feel that picking and choosing elements of two cultures and sticking them together in a new culture is... disrespectful, at least. I agree with TheKillerBs that there should be natural reasons for the differing elements that you are utilizing to create the new culture. Is there a particular reason you want to combine elements of China and Japan? Are there particular elements you have in mind that you think will work well together?


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## ThinkerX (Feb 19, 2017)

I (sort of) addressed this in my worldbuilding.

First, the denizens of my world(s) are all descended from folks brought in by the 'ancient aliens,' who basically abducted groups of humans and other at various points in time ranging from a few dozen to a few thousand.    

Second, these groups, once imported, spent varying amounts of time (a few decades to several thousand years) as the aliens servitors and experimental subjects.  (The more promising were genetically imbued with paranormal abilities - as much of the aliens tech required PSI talent to properly employ.)

Cultures change over time.  Add the above - isolated populations taken from their native culture, and a varying lengths of servitude, and what remains of the 'norm' is a mishmash.  

That said, elements of my major country does echo imperial Rome (larger initial population shorter period of servitude), but strangeness abounds.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Feb 19, 2017)

Mixing a bunch of different Asian cultural elements together at random to create a generic "Asian" culture is commonly done, and not commonly appreciated. 

I would advise that you research many different Asian cultures, and then figure out what elements are common to most or many of them. These will probably be general things rather than specific things. Then, you can build on those things with your imagination to create an Asian-inspired culture that isn't just a bunch of elements of different cultures smashed together without any regard to their significance or the differentiation between cultures. 

Additionally, you could base your fantasy on lesser-known Asian cultures. Last I checked there was more there than China and Japan. I've read a bit about Vietnamese history and mythology and the seeds of an awesome fantasy story are there. 

There's no way of avoiding the crapload of research you'll need to do, though.


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## oenanthe (Feb 19, 2017)

If you're not looking to publish, do whatever you want.

but seriously. if you plan to put this story out into the world, you need better craft than this. What you're talking about doing isn't just neglectful, unresearched world-building. it's offensive.


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## TheCatholicCrow (Feb 19, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> There's no way of avoiding the crapload of research you'll need to do, though.



Yep ... even in Fantasy  If you want it to have depth, realism, (and not be laughably inaccurate) there's really no way around it. I see a lot of people assume that because _they_ don't know about something, none of their readers will know that they're BSing their way through. The fact is, readers aren't idiots. They can tell when we've been lazy and neglected to do our homework. 

The term "offensive" was used above ... I think what they mean is that it sounds like you're suggesting flagrant cultural appropriation... that is, stealing elements of another culture (often misrepresenting them) for your own personal gain. 

If you use a Pan-Asian culture you will get a heap of crap. Just be aware. 

Also, if you try to blend Japanese and Chinese culture(s) you'll end up with something wacky and mismatched... the elements that led to cultural practices in each nation are going to be widely different based on history, politics, religion, and geography (among other things) ...  One's a series of islands, the other was connected to European / Middle Eastern trade via the Silk Road ... both have very different histories which have led to very different cultures. 

Dragon's point of using Vietnamese culture is really interesting ... I would love to see more of that! Or how about Korean? Nepalese? Pakistan? Malaysia? Myanmar? I would even include Turkey into the mix (yes I know they want to be part of the EU, but for hundreds of years they were viewed as exotic & Occidentalism) ... there's literally an entire continent of choices to draw from. China and Japan are everyone's go-to which makes them seem trite.  

Take away, either make up you're own culture from top to bottom (the influences shouldn't be easily recognized at all), or pick one culture and stick with it... The exception would be if your background happens to be in Cultural Anthropology in which case, you probably wouldn't consider the Pan-Asian or even Pan-Chinese approach (there's already more than one Chinese culture so even just saying general "China" would feel too broad).


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## TheCatholicCrow (Feb 19, 2017)

Dr Steve Brule said:


> My question is how does one go about creating a spin off culture without it being offensive/bad?


This question can only be answered with another - what do people find offensive?
It's really going to depend on the individual person. I thought _Nacho Libre _was hilarious... they nailed Mexican culture in a lighthearted way. My father says it's dumb and offensive. Maybe plan on having some Asian readers give it a look when you're done to gauge their reactions ... Aside from that, don't be rude, elitist (/ethnocentric), and do your research.  



> It's not that anything in my book would be racist, but rather maybe a lot of bad portrayals of Eastern beliefs/society.
> 
> Take this for example: Suppose I use a mixture of Chinese and Japanese names. I see two potential problems:
> 1) Mixing Chinese and Japanese elements together
> 2) Asian names are usually combinations of characters that complement each other to form a whole name (think of kanji) If I just make a name because it sounds good, suppose either the prefix or suffix has real meaning.



These all sound like potential problems ... which is why I would advocate sticking with a single culture and showing both good and bad in it. I think that holds true for anything ... for instance, if you were going to write a book about monks in Medieval France, you better make sure all of the clergy aren't the bad guys (some of them, maybe, but not all of them or you'd take on an anti-Catholic sentiment that would be highly offensive.)

Find a balance between good and bad. That should keep you from crossing over into being offensive.



> Does anyone have any experience with this? If so, can you give me some advice and perhaps some examples of your own work?



I think having real life influences is something that will just inevitably happen... even if we don't realize it. Ugh ... I started writing an ebook about applying Cultural Anthro theory to Fantasy worldbuilding, but got busy with life and set it aside. Maybe I should pick it up again ...


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## elemtilas (Feb 19, 2017)

TheCatholicCrow said:


> Maybe plan on having some Asian readers give it a look when you're done to gauge their reactions ... Aside from that, don't be rude, elitist (/ethnocentric), and do your research.



Heh. It just strikes me as kind of oddly humorous, given the nature of the topic ... just have "some Asian readers" give it a look... as if everyone from Jerusalem to Bangkok to Vladivostok were the same! 

I'm sure a Filipino reader would probably not care if the OP fused Chinese and Japanese. Maybe a Chinese reader wouldn't either.

My penny-hapenny would be to perhaps try and avoid a "spin-off culture". Whatever it is you find inspirational or interesting or even horrifying about various Asian cultures, use that as a basis for constructing something novel yet familiar. Not something obviously Chinese or Japanese but something that calls them to mind in the reader's imagination without actually saying "this is China with Japanese window dressing". Elements from different cultures can be woven. Real cultures are all tapestries of many different threads from different sources. An invented culture ought to be no different. Weave because there is something you love about that culture or there is something that aspect of the culture can teach and you want to bring that out respectfully.

And of course, yet to the research and being respectful and so forth. No to being afraid to even try something of the sort.


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## TheCatholicCrow (Feb 19, 2017)

elemtilas said:


> Heh. It just strikes me as kind of oddly humorous, given the nature of the topic ... just have "some Asian readers" give it a look... as if everyone from Jerusalem to Bangkok to Vladivostok were the same!



Definitely not what I meant. I've had 6 Asian roommates (Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Pakistani, & Taiwanese) not to mention their boyfriends and friends ... and actually, my BF is Taiwanese. I understand that there's a difference, but the majority of the Asians I know are highly attuned to one another's cultures. Chances are, the average Filipino could pick Lee-Min-ho out of a crowd. The average Korean has had sushi. And the average Japanese person has tried kimchi. The average Mongolian has probably seen more than one Kung-fu movie in their life.   

Yes, their cultures are completely different and separate, but that doesn't mean they stay in insulated Japanese-only groups (outside of Japan).  I assumed the OP is American / Australian / Canadian / British / Scandinavian given their firm grasp on the English language. So I'm also assuming they live somewhere outside of Japan or China.       

It's different from Latin America in that there aren't 2 common languages to unite them but in the US a political identity & imagined community of Asian Americans has been starting to form. It's unique from the actual cultures "back home" (if you will) in that they de-emphasize the differences and search for commonalities. Fields like "Asian and Pacific Studies" create the impression (for those that don't take it) that they're all related (even though they aren't- aside from sharing a continental plate). The image of a united Pan-Asian culture (if you want to call it that) is an American fantasy and not part of the actual cultures. So ... if someone wants to use this as a basis for world building 

Side note: A friend of mine attended some of those ethnic clubs for Latinos in college. On the first night they burned a bunch of flags and denounced their countries of origin - claiming they can't be united as "one people" ("La Raza", "La Communidad" or whatever tickled there fancy that month). That's really dumb. Of course there's a difference in culture. Spanish is (officially) spoken in three continents. ... BUT this is the new narrative that many minority groups in the US are creating. They're rewriting history and forming a new culture ... for Latinos that's based on language. For Asians it's still based primarily in geography and an identity as being "not white". 

Now, all that being said, I still think any reader would be able to spot potentially problematic portrayals but an Asian read would probably be more likely to tell you if they're offended by it. If you could find 5 to 10 Japanese people to read your manuscript, that'd be awesome ... but (Philip excluded) I'd bet most people aren't close enough to that many Japanese people to make that a viable option.


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## DragonOfTheAerie (Feb 19, 2017)

TheCatholicCrow said:


> Definitely not what I meant. I've had 6 Asian roommates (Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Pakistani, & Taiwanese) not to mention their boyfriends and friends ... and actually, my BF is Taiwanese. I understand that there's a difference, but the majority of the Asians I know are highly attuned to one another's cultures. Chances are, the average Filipino could pick Lee-Min-ho out of a crowd. The average Korean has had sushi. And the average Japanese person has tried kimchi. The average Mongolian has probably seen more than one Kung-fu movie in their life.
> 
> Yes, their cultures are completely different and separate, but that doesn't mean they stay in insulated Japanese-only groups (outside of Japan).  I assumed the OP is American / Australian / Canadian / British / Scandinavian given their firm grasp on the English language. So I'm also assuming they live somewhere outside of Japan or China.
> 
> ...



This is something I worry about when writing diverse characters and using inspiration from other cultures...my circle of potential readers is very, very white. I don't even think I personally know anybody Asian. No one well enough to ask to read a manuscript, anyway. 

Most of my social interactions being within my homeschool group, though, my sphere is smaller than average anyway.


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## skip.knox (Feb 19, 2017)

Another voice to emphasize research. There are thousands of ways to get things wrong. It's more than just knowing a bunch of stuff. It's acquiring an ear for the culture(s). Heck, "Chinese" isn't even one thing, it's many. Dive in if you wish, but expect to hear complaints. They happen even if you're an expert, because people "know" things--even about their own cultures--that are not necessarily true.


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## Penpilot (Feb 20, 2017)

Yes on research, but IMHO most faux pas can be forgiven if you write your characters well. If they're real people with dimension and not bad stereotypes of a culture, I think that does a lot more to assuage complaints than nailing every detail.


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## elemtilas (Feb 20, 2017)

TheCatholicCrow said:


> Definitely not what I meant.



Oh, I'm sure not! It just struck me as an odd turn of phrase is all.



> I've had 6 Asian roommates (Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Pakistani, & Taiwanese) not to mention their boyfriends and friends ... and actually, my BF is Taiwanese. I understand that there's a difference, but the majority of the Asians I know are highly attuned to one another's cultures. Chances are, the average Filipino could pick Lee-Min-ho out of a crowd. The average Korean has had sushi. And the average Japanese person has tried kimchi. The average Mongolian has probably seen more than one Kung-fu movie in their life.



Yeah. Missus is Filipina (and I talk better than some of the relatives); probably couldn't pick out Lee-Min-Ho (or if so, wouldn't care --- not part of the regional culture!).

But your point is well taken! I wasn't implying that Asian people are all insular (probably even your average North Korean could pick out Lee-Min-Ho!), just that vast differences of space lead me to suspect that such intercultural familiarity might be more regional than broad.


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## TheCatholicCrow (Feb 20, 2017)

DragonOfTheAerie said:


> This is something I worry about when writing diverse characters and using inspiration from other cultures...my circle of potential readers is very, very white. I don't even think I personally know anybody Asian. No one well enough to ask to read a manuscript, anyway.
> 
> Most of my social interactions being within my homeschool group, though, my sphere is smaller than average anyway.



It's better for people to write diversity "wrong" than not at all. ... I don't mean you need to use it as a checklist but certainly don't be afraid to add some color to the mix.  

Your exposure to diversity will probably change if/when you get to college or start working (depending on the demographics of your state and region). I grew up mostly around whites & Latinos with the occasional Asian (or something else). College was a huge culture shock for me. It was the first time I'd ever seen that many Asians in one place (literally more than 11 thousand). When I graduated, my university had 24%White, 48%Asian, 15%Hispanic, 2%Black, Native Americans were a fraction of 1% & everything else distributed among Other & Undeclared. 

Whoa! - just looked at the new stats - apparently they're up to 51% Asian & 20% White now... So it looks like UCSD is still a great place to make some Asian friends 

Diversity is a spectacular thing that can really open you're eyes to new ways of viewing the world... and it's a great opportunity to share your worldview with others... I can see where homeschooling (and going to church or whatever your routine includes) could limit this. 

But ... maybe that's where online communities can work to your advantage ... ?  

If you ever need a Latina reader, hit me up & see if I'm available for a swap.


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## TheCatholicCrow (Feb 20, 2017)

elemtilas said:


> probably even your average North Korean could pick out Lee-Min-Ho!).



To be fair ... he does have a very nice face


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## Peat (Feb 20, 2017)

Dr Steve Brule said:


> Does anyone have any experience with this? If so, can you give me some advice and perhaps some examples of your own work?



Who doesn't? I thought chucking two or more different cultures into a blender was one of the three normal ways to create a fantasy culture (with the other two being to isolate a subculture and expand it, and to transfer cultures across pretty much one to one). 

Obviously do your research and be respectful, as everyone else has said.

The key thing to do when blending cultures to create a new one is to pick a couple of defining characteristics for the new culture that's found in both (or most of them). That gives your new culture a focus and cohesion that allows itself to stand as its own thing rather than "Hey, its China *and* Japan!"

F' ex - right now I'm bashing together a culture that hinges primarily on a mix of Celtic myth, Dark Ages Ireland, Ancient Rome and Medieval England. Some of the touchstones I'm using are -

Semi-tribal structure with formal social stratification
Warrior honour code
Importance of law and satire
Uneasy relationship between King and leading nobles

From there, its then a matter of picking and mixing. Some details you can mix; it makes sense to me that there's a more northern European diet in the north of the country and a more Mediterrenean diet in the south. Others I think its better to pick one; the clothing is mainly Dark Ages Irish.

Where you've got to be careful (beyond avoiding making it full of stereotypes) is when you get to echoes of highly important/controversial elements of the culture. Religion's a prime one. Fortunately, not too many people follow the Ancient Roman/Mythic Irish Paganism I'm using so I'm safe, but if you're going eastern Asian, then you've got to be careful. Shinto is still followed today. You're going to stick in foot binding? Have analogues to Japan's conflict with China in WW2? Tread carefully.

There's also the issue of different cultural psychology. To steal from a recent post on Reddit:



> In many Chinese fantasy stories, mercy is a sign of weakness, and the greatest heroes are praised as being virtuous for eschewing it. The notion of kindness being presented as a temptation rather than a virtue is just one of the many cultural twists that I have found to be interesting or food for thought. Clever protagonists borrow the influence of hierarchical superiors in order to suppress their rivals, gather wealth in order to smash their enemies with money, and enjoy bullying and harassing deserving targets in a manner that is praised as "domineering". Rather than familiar concepts of 'good' and 'evil', the heroes of Chinese fantasy are judged on their success at achieving their own interests and the interests of their family (though truly depraved acts are rarely seen.)



Don't show it, your world is bland and offensive to some. Get it wrong, its probably offensive to quite a few people.

In your specific case...

Pan-Asian mainly belongs in mediocre restaurants. I love Asian-flavoured fantasy but pan-Asian made up cultures rarely seem to work.

If it is your heart's desire though, pick some common elements of the cultures in question (and I second suggestions to look outside China & Japan), pick the elements that really draws you to these cultures, and start building around them. And maybe build a second Asian culture to go around them and present a broader, more human picture.


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## ChasingSuns (Feb 21, 2017)

Peat said:


> The key thing to do when blending cultures to create a new one is to pick a couple of defining characteristics for the new culture that's found in both (or most of them). That gives your new culture a focus and cohesion that allows itself to stand as its own thing rather than "Hey, its China *and* Japan!"
> 
> F' ex - right now I'm bashing together a culture that hinges primarily on a mix of Celtic myth, Dark Ages Ireland, Ancient Rome and Medieval England. Some of the touchstones I'm using are -
> 
> ...



This is essentially how I go about it. I'll also pull pieces from cultures that are not normally associated with each other and are from different parts of the world, which usually makes the end result look a lot less like a generic version of a group of people. For example, there's a nation I created where I pulled pieces from different warrior cultures, like the Maori, the Aztecs, and the Vikings. So far I'm really happy with the end result of it. Sometimes I'll do something a little more superficial, such as blending architecture or clothing. For example, what kind of culture/setting would create architecture that is a blend of ancient Rome and say... the Han dynasty? Or what kind of culture/setting create a situation where people would wear clothing that is some sort of blend between the Mongols and Nordic tribes?

Eventually, if you do enough mixing and insert enough original ideas, you'll come up with something that doesn't come off as a blatant mismashing of cultures. In terms of doing something that is specific to Asian cultures, as others have said I would do a ton of research, and definitely look outside of just Japan and China. And think about what kind of setting would brew a culture that has these pieces that you're pulling from other cultures. How does it all fit together? In terms of names, I would definitely be careful with using combinations of real world names, unless you know the meanings behind them. Might be kinda rocky ground to tread.


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## Peat (Feb 21, 2017)

ChasingSuns said:


> And think about what kind of setting would brew a culture that has these pieces that you're pulling from other cultures. How does it all fit together? In terms of names, I would definitely be careful with using combinations of real world names, unless you know the meanings behind them. Might be kinda rocky ground to tread.



Plus one on this. Is your culture the result of two cultures merging? Or of successive waves of immigration? Or was it a final wave of migration itself and that was the culture all along? If you want a culture to feel alive and real, then it should like part of a process, something that's been the result of change and that will result in more change (albeit very slowly at times).

And name culture blending can go badly. I closed the kindle sample of the first John Gwynne book I found after finding Fionn ap WhocaressticktooneofIrishandWelshGwynisanokaynamereallyhonest. I'll give you not everyone's as grumpy as me, but its really easy for it to look lazy and thoughtless, and that's with cultures where no one cares about you getting them wrong.

Not that working out a bunch of suitable Phoenician name suffixes to transfix to Irish prefixes to show cultural assimilation has been fun either mind...


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