# questions on novel length and word count



## eternaldream24 (Mar 1, 2012)

I'm working on my first novel, and I was wondering how long the average YA fantasy is.  I read somewhere that the average is 40000 words, but that seems awfully short. I know, personally, I pass over books that are less then 200 pages. Also, I've heard that publishers only count words that have 6 or more characters. Does this mean the word count tool on my computer isn't accurate? Should I be writing more words to make up for the ones that don't count.


----------



## Lord Darkstorm (Mar 1, 2012)

A novel is typically defined as 70k words or more.  YA shouldn't really matter since most YA is just a new marketing term to classify books into.  Young adults read stuff more graphic than I normally would as an adult.  The real line is between children's books and non.  

If you format your document to be courier new 12 point double spaced, then there is 250 words per page.  While that is not an accurate word count, it's the quick way to get a rough estimate without counting the words.  So if your document is 280 pages with that format it is around 70k words.   Those things are also variable dependent on the publisher as well.  The format is based on the printed concepts that were used for most paper printing.  

Of course, write your story and see how long it is, then figure out if it is too short.  Having it written makes these issues worth looking at, not yet written, then length isn't much of an issue.


----------



## Telcontar (Mar 1, 2012)

I'm not sure if there is a true 'threshold' for what makes a novel length. I've seen books marketed towards younger audiences weigh in as low as 60k words. Adult fantasy usually checks in slightly higher, and obviously some of the really huge epic fantasy novels pack a whopping 200k+ words. My first novel finished at about 160k.

I had a number of people (including a couple agents) tell me that new authors might want to shoot for a shorter word count - it's easier to get publisher to 'take a chance' on a smaller book. 

I've never heard anything about publishers only 'counting' longer words. Sounds funny to me.


----------



## Sheilawisz (Mar 1, 2012)

I think that for a new author it's better to write a short story, the publishers would not take the risk to publish something that is huge (like a 300k words) if it comes from a first time author!! Anyway, personally I think that short books are better than monstrous brick-size books: You do not need to write a freaking library for your stories to be good and epic, especially within the world of Fantasy Literature!!

My first Fantasy novel is about 77k words, the longest of that series is over 93k and the novels from my second series are between 36k and 47k and I love them that way =)


----------



## Benjamin Clayborne (Mar 1, 2012)

As a data point, _A Game of Thrones_ is around 293,000 words. The other books in the series are of similar length (mostly longer). That's pretty long. Most of the SF novels I read tend to be shorter (70-100k). Fantasy tends to be a bit longer. YA tends to be shorter. Etc.


----------



## eternaldream24 (Mar 1, 2012)

Thanks everyone. Do you guys have any opinions on whether shorter or longer novels sell better?


----------



## TWErvin2 (Mar 1, 2012)

eternaldream24 said:


> Thanks everyone. Do you guys have any opinions on whether shorter or longer novels sell better?



It depends on the audience. One thing to do is to go to the local bookstore, and library, and see what's on the shelves that is similar to what you're writing. Check out length (estimate the # of words per page and then multiply by the # of pages).

There isn't a magical number for word count--or never one that I've come across. It is true that often YA novels are a bit shorter than 'adult' novels, but not a hard-fast rule. It's also true with traditional publishers and agents, that a shorter novel (as opposed to a 250,000 word epic) is an easier sell. Note--easier, not in any way 'easy.'

The best thing you can do is write and tell the story you have to tell. Make it tight as possible. If it's 45,000 words or 105,000 words, that's what it is.


----------



## Sheilawisz (Mar 2, 2012)

Something that really angers me is that "adult" novels are supposed to be huge monster books 300k words or more, and any novel or story that is short is immediately regarded as young adult or teenage literature that cannot be a good quality story =( Why is that?? My Fantasy novels are short when compared to so many giant books out there, but I do not want them to be considered young adult or teen stuff!!

My intended audience is all lovers of Fantasy and Imagination, and I do not believe in this crazy age groups system =P

@Eternaldream: There are readers that love huge novels and many others who prefer shorter works, both can sell good, just follow the nature and the life of your story without making it longer or shorter than it turns out to be =)


----------



## TWErvin2 (Mar 2, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> Something that really angers me is that "adult" novels are supposed to be huge monster books 300k words or more, and any novel or story that is short is immediately regarded as young adult or teenage literature that cannot be a good quality story =( Why is that?? My Fantasy novels are short when compared to so many giant books out there, but I do not want them to be considered young adult or teen stuff!!
> 
> My intended audience is all lovers of Fantasy and Imagination, and I do not believe in this crazy age groups system =P
> 
> @Eternaldream: There are readers that love huge novels and many others who prefer shorter works, both can sell good, just follow the nature and the life of your story without making it longer or shorter than it turns out to be =)



It all depends on your intended audience. The majority of 'adult' novels don't even approach 300,000 words, let alone 200,000 words.  Through my experience, watching students select books (12-18 years of age), often they look at the thickness before pulling it from the shelf or examining the cover/contents--and it's not for selecting the brick-sized ones. Occasionally some will tell say they like thick books or books with a lot of pages, but even they are more hesitant when considering a new author. Of course everyone's experience/mileage may vary.  

I cannot say about what happens at bookstores, online or ebook sales. But again, there may be a targeted audience. Some YA authors, for example, target reluctant readers. There, they tend to have shorter books, books with more white space on the page, shorter chapters, fast-paced content, etc.

An established author with an established audience (I think we can all draw examples), their initial published novels are often thinner (fewer words) than later novels. Publishers and readers are more willing to 'invest' in that writer than one they've never heard of before.


----------



## Benjamin Clayborne (Mar 2, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> Something that really angers me is that "adult" novels are supposed to be huge monster books 300k words or more, and any novel or story that is short is immediately regarded as young adult or teenage literature that cannot be a good quality story =( Why is that??



I don't think this is an accurate representation of the current state of things. Most books intended for an adult audience aren't anywhere near 300k words. Who is it that you think has this perception that books in the 100-200k range are intended for a YA/teenage audience? Just as an example, Bujold's _The Curse of Chalion_ is around 180k words, and no one in their right mind would say that that book is for a young audience.


----------



## Sheilawisz (Mar 6, 2012)

Take for example some of the most famous Fantasy series out there, like Sword of Truth, Wheel of Time and A Song of Ice and Fire: They are huge books (one of them has a book well over 400k) and I have met many people, like a friend that I had back in 2005, who think that the longer a novel is the better, and that only very talented writers can write books like that meaning that if your stories are short, they are inferior to the "epics".

I have also met people saying that Sword of Truth was better than Lord of the Rings based only on word count...

Eternaldream was considering to write more words than necessary just to meet the standards =(

TWErvin: Please tell me: In your opinion, could a Fantasy series composed by short novels in the 37-47k range be marketed and sold as a serious series, in comparison to the massive series that I mentioned before??


----------



## eternaldream24 (Mar 6, 2012)

I don't think epic books are necessarily better, nor do I think shorter books are. It really depends on the book. I know my first novel will not be an epic. I just estimate with the amount of plot I have to cover, that it would be around 300 pages. If it turns out to be shorter though, can it still be published? Do novelettes get published? I never see many in the bookstore, but then again I don't really look for them.

I guess I am obsessing, because I have a fear of finishing my book too soon. I often find my self rushing to the end, and I have to slow myself down and develop things more.


----------



## TWErvin2 (Mar 6, 2012)

Sheilawisz said:


> TWErvin: Please tell me: In your opinion, could a Fantasy series composed by short novels in the 37-47k range be marketed and sold as a serious series, in comparison to the massive series that I mentioned before??



As a YA series, I think so. As an adult series, probably, but more likely in electronic (ebook) form. Again, it depends on the targeted readers, and what a publisher sees as the (their) audience.

I believe you'd have to write the first novel as a standalone, no cliff hanger type. That doesn't mean no openings for a continuing story with the characters is possible, but that the first/initial story has a complete story arc and is a satisfying read for the reader.  A series is different than writing a trilogy, for example, where you would cut the story off, some logical spot, in the middle of the storyline. Maybe one small story arc is complete but the main storyline isn't. Think Lord of the Rings trilogy. Fellowship of the Ring ends when the fellowship is broken with Sam and Frodo going their own way and the rest of the survivors going their own--leading into The Two Towers.

Hope that makes sense.


----------



## Sheilawisz (Mar 6, 2012)

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind!! =)


----------

