# Using The Traditional Character Sets.. Good or Repetitive?



## SomethingToPonder (Jul 24, 2013)

Hi All, so for my first novel , Im going to have it set in a mythical world, With mountains, Mines, dense forests Islands , Maybe some mythical dungeons etc, I will no doubt start more threads asking some questions about that however this thread is to ask a question which im sure may have come up before.

There are going to be some tribes that are not any specific race, Monsters , Bandits and of course main races.My question is When creating "main races" Is it better to use the usual suspects such as , trolls dwarves and elves? Alongside other races of course i was thinking of, such as maybe some sort of Necromancer or Demon Summoner race. (there will hopefully be many more, But i havent got past the planning stage yet so im not 100% sure)Or is it better to create your own races from complete scratch.

I know some creatures such as trolls are ok to use usually and monsters are fairly easy to create and come up with, But for main races, Am i better heading in the direction of using or incorporating elves and dwarves etc or is it getting tiresome using the same old races.

Cheers all


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## ThinkerX (Jul 24, 2013)

Not so much as 'what races you choose', but 'how they're done'.

Generic AD&D style elves/dwarves as a centerpiece in a generic AD&D style setting...probably not a winner.  If they're at the edges of things with an aura of mystery about them - say dwarves are the only ones that can make magic swords, and they trade at only a couple places, well, thats better.  If the elves are planning to use their magic to make themselves the near immortal rulers of the world, thats interesting, if done right.  

In my works, elves are at the edges of things, with a kingdom or three of their own.  They almost never directly enter into my tales...but I have a couple of moderately important half elf characters, and a notion to attempt a tale or three set in a large mixed race setting.  Dwarves are present, but not in the traditional AD&D role, essentially they are long lived short people dwelling in enclaves here and there.  They are not epic warriors or drunks, but do have a reputation for fine craftsmanship.  I also took the AD&D version of goblins/hobgoblins and twisted them almost beyond recognition.


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## Steerpike (Jul 24, 2013)

Anything can make a great story if done well. You can reuse things that have come before, or try a new take on things. Depends on what story you want to tell.


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## Feo Takahari (Jul 24, 2013)

SomethingToPonder said:


> Hi All, so for my first novel , Im going to have it set in a mythical world, With mountains, Mines, dense forests Islands , Maybe some mythical dungeons etc, I will no doubt start more threads asking some questions about that however this thread is to ask a question which im sure may have come up before.
> 
> There are going to be some tribes that are not any specific race, Monsters , Bandits and of course main races.My question is When creating "main races" Is it better to use the usual suspects such as , trolls dwarves and elves? Alongside other races of course i was thinking of, such as maybe some sort of Necromancer or Demon Summoner race. (there will hopefully be many more, But i havent got past the planning stage yet so im not 100% sure)Or is it better to create your own races from complete scratch.
> 
> ...



Simply put, what do you intend to do with this?

For this thread, the question is "What do you intend to do with these species?" Are you including dwarves because the plot makes some use of traits of the dwarven species? How about elves? Trolls? Take out what's there solely to be there, and stick with what serves a purpose in some way. If you end up with only humans, that's fine. If you end up with ten different species, that's fine, too, so long as you put them to use.

For later threads, questions may include "What do you intend to do with these locations?", "What do you intend to do with these protagonists," and, as a whole, "What do you intend to do with this world?" (For instance, it sounds like you might be writing one of those worlds where you can't walk fifty feet without being eaten by a monster. If so, is there a narrative purpose to that density? If not, what will you instead do with, say, a peaceful agrarian society where change comes slowly, or a society being swept over by new technology? What kind of story do you want to tell?)


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## Saigonnus (Jul 25, 2013)

I agree with Feo. If you are adding races to your world and or story just for the sake of adding them, try to avoid doing so. A race should serve some purpose other than *bling* even if it's just to enrich the world with depth. Perhaps the protags visit a gnomish village (which leads them off on another adventure) or meet a charismatic elvish baker (who has information the protags need to move to the next thing), as long as it serves some purpose in the story, don't feel bad adding a race into the story.


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## SomethingToPonder (Jul 25, 2013)

Thanks everyone for your very informative replys, There are some points that were made, That were fairly basic but made me realize how much i really havent thought of yet. 
Good point about not adding races just for the sake of them being there, I think i shall do it in the sense of, "the dwarves are master craftsman and only they could provide the armor we would need for this quest" Or the elvish city othat lies on the outskirts of the vast forest is somewhere we will need to venture through in order to get to ..." Type of thing, all of them will deinetely serve a purpose, thanks for bringing that up.

Thanks Theo, Well originally i wanted my world to be packed full of dungeons and monsters and the like, however upon thinking about it, a book would be very boring if every 50 feet there was an attack on the main character and very little changed apart from the type of monsters or wild creatures attacking him etc, No i wouldent have it like so, but i would like my world to be very in depth, and i think i made the mistake of thinking in depth meant more things packed into as little space as possible, clearly wrong now i think about it.

I want to write a story that i myself would be happy to read, Which is a tale that is rich in adventure, characters you can maybe not relate to but ones that you are rooting for , vast continents or lands with islands, temples, dungeons, monsters creatures , different people with specialist traits, However this is easier said than done as im not an easy reader to please.
I tend to eer closer to the more in depth story approach as opposed to the "traditional hero on an epic quest" idea, The sort to be in books aimed at people in there early teens, I remember all the "Older, more original" dungeon and fantasy storys from the late 80's early 90's which a lot of people who were into the genre just couldent be bothered with because thy were so in depth, I loved them though and want to create something as i said before that i would be happy to read.

As im sure it is fairly obvious this is my first novel, its more to see where i stand, what level of writing im at, what i need to improve on. Im definetely not looking to write a bestseller or even a book that would sell really. (of course if it would, i would sell it, but im not counting on it) Do you think i should maybe start with short tales so i dont need to create a major story arc? or do you think if thats what i am aiming for in the long run theres only one way to get there? trial and error? 

ThinkerX, Yes i would like everything to have its own sort of style, My own style if you will, I wasnt looking to use the old classic example of dwarves say, But to change them slightly. I really like the sound of taking a widely used race like the elves but adding my own take to them, thanks very much for your input.

I would just like to say, this is a great community, as a writer of not much skill and being fairly new to the scene, (not the fantasy genre, just the writing aspect) i was not sure how i would be recieved, However i have found the community to be rather welcoming. 

Thanks everyone for your great input.


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## SeverinR (Jul 26, 2013)

My response,
Make everything in your world, yours.
Don't mix Tolkein Hobbits, with Dungeons and dragons elves, with Harry Potter Dementors.
Those are creatures from other worlds, not yours.
You don't have to have genesis of creatures, but make them yours, by description, mannerisms, history, or lore.


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## SomethingToPonder (Jul 27, 2013)

Thanks sev, i Reckon that is some pretty damn good advice, I think il go along with that.


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## Edankyn (Jul 27, 2013)

Saigonnus said:


> I agree with Feo. If you are adding races to your world and or story just for the sake of adding them, try to avoid doing so. A race should serve some purpose other than *bling* even if it's just to enrich the world with depth



I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on this point. Let me start off by clarifying that this particular forum is about world building, not specifically the writing aspect of a story. I proof read quite a few stories between friends and sites like this. It becomes apparent very quickly which writers create a world and input a story into that world versus the writers that create a story and fashion the world around the story. I would strongly encourage someone to establish the foundation for their world, including a variety of non-essential races/religions/locations/etc. just for depth, before placing their story into that world. Now as far as it relates to the writing aspect I will definitely agree that simply writing about all that fluff simply to demonstrate that you've thought about it damages the story.


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## SomethingToPonder (Jul 27, 2013)

I have to say im more inclined to go in this direction, While i fully take on board the information given to me previously by fellow members here and am also against writing "fluff" just for the sake of it, I am without a doubt more inclined to build a full world, races ,monsters, kingdoms, religions, languages, dungeons, castles, forests the full lot first, and then design a story around the world, maybe not around it, But have the map easily referencable so i can say, "X character needs to be in X place, so in order to get there he has to travel through Y Place, hence il create a subplot for it, It seems easier to me in my head. If some races dont come into it, fine, who knows there could be a sequel, but as you said as long as you dont start writing rubbish just for the sake of it to include them and confuse people.


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## wino (Jul 29, 2013)

I would try using different races unless you can make dwarves and elves unique to you.  They're both overused and predictable.


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## C Hollis (Jul 29, 2013)

wino said:


> I would try using different races unless you can make dwarves and elves unique to you.  They're both overused and predictable.



Though I disagree with this on several levels, the unfortunate truth is this is the perception of some readers.  I think, as writers, we need to look at whether our worlds are better served by various races, or various cultures.  Though, in my mind, exchanging dwarves for a society of humans that are dwarf-like in their personalities is almost counter-intuitive to what i feel is "pure" (a completely ambiguous term on my part) fantasy.

I was on a narrow-minded forum for a few years where most of the populace refused to read anything with elves and orcs, because they were "overused".  My question was:  Are they overused, or have you read too many books with them?  Whose fault is that?

I like books with elves and dwarves, and I like books that have none of those races.  If my world works better with multiple races, then dwarves will be hugging trees and elves hitting rocks, oh wait, that's the other way around.

If we waste our lives away trying to appease readers, then we will lead frustrating lives.


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## SomethingToPonder (Jul 29, 2013)

Hmm interesting , You see i like them as well, I get a feeling of the "old" D&D/ fantasy from 20 years ago + feeling when writing or thinking of stories about them. 
They just seem to be implanted in the genre and i think that they are ultimately great characters. After all, it is _Fantasy_ so i think there is more than room for these things. You create the world and can make anything happen, it is no doubt one of the most fun genres to read.

That does sound like a very closed minded forum, Im glad i didnt wind up there as opposed to here, The exact opposite. 

"If we waste our lives away trying to appease readers, then we will lead frustrating lives."
very interesting, I suppose there is a balance in between though, But in my opinion, and my opinion solely, I reckon the best stories are the ones written by writers for themselves, that other people happen to read and enjy as well, Because they were written with what the writer enjoyed in mind, And so he was passionate about it and it seems that the stories seem to "flourish" under those conditions.

Thanks mate


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## Steerpike (Jul 29, 2013)

wino said:


> I would try using different races unless you can make dwarves and elves unique to you.  They're both overused and predictable.



I disagree with this as well, and by looking at the shelves at the local B&N it seems clear enough that this sort of thing still sells. You can't please every reader, and it is a mistake to try. If you write a great story with traditional elves and dwarves, there are plenty of people who would be willing to read it. If that's what a writer feels strongly about writing, they should stick with it.


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## SomethingToPonder (Jul 29, 2013)

Thanks Sp, Lmao i happen to have had the LOTR theme tune from the film on in the background to look at some of the original art, or art anyway and when you said that it sounded like a speech from a film, The one that gets everyone riled up XD
No idea why. Some lovely pics though here, My personal favourite is gandalf fighting the balrog.
The Lord of the Rings - Theme Song - YouTube


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## Chessie (Jul 29, 2013)

Edankyn said:


> It becomes apparent very quickly which writers create a world and input a story into that world versus the writers that create a story and fashion the world around the story.


But the point is the story, so either way of doing this is fine so long as there is consistency and things fit into the scope of what's going on. 




Edankyn said:


> I would strongly encourage someone to establish the foundation for their world, including a variety of non-essential races/religions/locations/etc. just for depth, before placing their story into that world.


I think the world-building process is different for everyone, but some people do spend too much time on building the world and leave the story behind. We don't want our friend here to fall into that trap. 

If the goal is to publish the story you're wanting to share with the world, then setting up a foundation will help, but you don't need to have all the details down in order to write. During the process of storytelling, things shift and then you'll need new details. Focus on what feels right to develop on any given day, but the story and characters are the most important aspects. Having an idea of what you want to do with that will help you create your world at the same time. There is only a vague mention of a religious/spiritual belief system in my story, so I haven't spent much time developing that at all. It doesn't matter, so why spend time on it? Spend time on things that fit or will give you a broad sense of the story and will help you write it.


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## ThinkerX (Jul 29, 2013)

My guides to putting together the core area of my main world were the old TSR 'Historical Earth' Handbooks, which gave details on not just game mechanics but culture, local beliefs, history, and a slew of other stuff.  I realized there were quite a few overlaps between these works: the ones for Rome, Celtic Europe, and Greece all overlapped in geography and much of the other stuff, likewise so did the Vikings, Charlemagnes Paladins, and the Crusades books.  So, I went and read a bunch of history and mythology of various sorts, and began to envision a sort of 'Alternate Europe' with a still lingering Roman Empire flanked by a nation of elves to the north and strange magics seeping out of the desert wastes to the south.  Evenutally, I had to abandon the 'Alternate Earth' part and just plain make it another world altogether.  Then I did other stuff for a lot of years, and when I came back to it with more of a writers eye than a gaming one, it got changed around again.


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## Edankyn (Jul 30, 2013)

Chesterama said:


> But the point is the story, so either way of doing this is fine so long as there is consistency and things fit into the scope of what's going on.


 I would still disagree. Is either way possible, yes absolutely. Looking at the 20 quotes by George R. R. Martin I would be an idiot to argue that it's not possible to create a world around the story as he basically comes out and says he did just that. However, look at the skill level of the average author who posts on sites such as this. The truth is that a vast majority of us (yes I include myself) can't truly remain consistent unless we establish the rules for our world ahead of time. If we don't, readers get a world that is cookie cut solely for the purpose of moving our main character from point A to point B. That isn't a very exciting world.



Chesterama said:


> I think the world-building process is different for everyone


 I will definitely grant you this. This is why I keep coming back to the fantasy genre for more.


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## A. E. Lowan (Jul 30, 2013)

One author who I have seen make elves and dwarves fresh and unique is Tanya Huff.  They're so very hers, if fact, that you really have to be looking to spot them, but they are indeed there.  In her _Valor_ series, which is not only science fiction but military science fiction, if you tilt your head to the right and squint one eye closed real tight, you notice her Taykan and her Krai start to look real familiar.


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## wino (Jul 30, 2013)

Edankyn said:


> I would still disagree. Is either way possible, yes absolutely. Looking at the 20 quotes by George R. R. Martin I would be an idiot to argue that it's not possible to create a world around the story as he basically comes out and says he did just that. However, look at the skill level of the average author who posts on sites such as this. The truth is that a vast majority of us (yes I include myself) can't truly remain consistent unless we establish the rules for our world ahead of time. If we don't, readers get a world that is cookie cut solely for the purpose of moving our main character from point A to point B. That isn't a very exciting world.
> 
> .



I think that if you have a story that is compelling, then the world will unfold as you tell the story.  What's the point of having a great world when you have a mediocre story?  I guess everyone's brain is wired differently because I can't imagine creating a world first and then plopping in a story.  Don't they both happen simultaneously?


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## Svrtnsse (Jul 30, 2013)

I started out creating my world as a setting for pen and paper RPGs and then eventually started writing stories in it as something of an after though.
Apart from humans I've got elves and dwarves and hobbits (though I had to change the name of hobbits as it's trademark). There are also dragons and magic and mystical spirits of the land. The races are all bog standard fantasy races; elves are pretty with pointy ears, dwarves are short with bushy beards and the hobbits... sorry, anfylk have hairy feet and like a good meal. They're as dull and boring and non-inventive as can be - on the surface.
You can probably tell from the build-up that I'm rather proud of the under-the-surface twists I've put into the races.

The reason I'm using the standard definitions for the surface impression of the races is that it gives me a solid base to build my version of the race from. Rather than say I have this race of tall skinny immortal magicians with pointy ears I can just say there are elves and then go on to detailing how they're different to standard elves.
I'm expecting that that's what the average reader/player would do anyway. Instead of describing my race to their friend who's interested in the setting they'll just say "the <name of race> are pretty much elves, but..."
This works for me, because it's a theme that runs through the entire setting; "it's a regular fantasy world, but..."
It may not work for you, and I expect the concept (of taking existing races) to be frowned upon by some people. The important part is that it works for me and that I feel good about it.


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