# Genetic Magic - Questions please



## Holman (Jul 23, 2017)

Magic in my current WiP is based on the following premises or history.

1) There is a magic gene - it is a recessive gene
2) Most magic is personal in nature - talents that allow the manipulation of the senses,  - stronger talents allow the manipulation of external objects - telekinesis, teleportation, healing - The most powerful talents can sense and manipulate the elements. - Those who have these abilities are called "Talented" by themselves and "Shamed" by the Church who wish to destroy them (There is no God by the way - so no divine magic exists) The High Priests of the Church have historically been minor talents
3) Following a major incident in the capital city 100 years previously which resulted in a huge fire that destroyed much of the city - there was a purge which say thousands accused of witchcraft and burned. This purge spread beyond the country in which the story is set to neighbouring countries as the purge was supported (carried out) by The Church - which is a global religion that has no opposition - there have been schisms, but the basic tenets of the religion are the same so all sects carried out the purge in all countries. 
4) There is a "Hidden Council" of Talented - they are based in the capital in the Outer City, and comprise some of the underworld element. 
5) Minor Talents are starting to surface again more commonly - partly due to the concentration of people with the recessive gene gathering the capital city due to the start of an industrial revolution and land grab by the rich elite forcing people of the land and into the cities, which are full to bursting point.
6) The Hidden Council have established a breeding programme - they identify children with talents and groom them to breed with other talented individuals tracking the results - this has been in process for the last 50ish years. Their aim is develop more powerful talents - they have had little success until now.

The point of this post is for two reasons: One to collect minor talents that could be associated with the different senses/natural abilities and the second to encourage people to ask the questions that I haven't thought of. I may not yet have the answers (I may not need to answer them) but would welcome the questions so that I can consider them. 

I don't want to share too much the talents that I have already identified, I don't want to colour people's judgement and not suggest a twist on something that I haven't considered

Thank you in advance for questions and ideas for talents


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## psychotick (Jul 23, 2017)

Hi,

Just thinking about the genetics aspect - if it's a recessive gene and you need two copies of it to show the talent, then every child of two talents would be a talent. Every child of one talent and one normal would carry at least one copy of the gene - could have two if the normal also carried one gene. And any child born could be a talent though the probability is likely low. So a breeding programme would be fraught with problems as well as the obvious ethical dilemmas. But over time - multiple generations, recessive alleles can still become predominant in a population.

The question becomes, how much time, power, control do these Council people have to embark on this project? How many generations? Also, why are some talents stronger / weaker than others? Do they all have the same gene? Is it simply expressed differently in differently people? Or are there multiple recessive magic genes?

Cheers, Greg.


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## Futhark (Jul 23, 2017)

Hmm...kinda vague, but I haven't posted in a while so I'll give it a whirl.

Minor talents manipulate the senses so there could be trackers like dogs, or tasters to detect poison.  Super weathermen could be living barometers.  Enhanced sight and hearing would work well in espionage or for hunting.  A super sensitive touch would be good for builders, as they would detect flaws in stonework and the like.

Regarding the world building aspects I would ask why is the gene recessive and where did it come from.  Also, I am curious as to how the church became a global power when the Industrial Age is just beginning.  Is there magical means to manage the distances in regards to communication and transport?

Hope this helps, and welcome to Mythic Scribes.


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## Holman (Jul 23, 2017)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just thinking about the genetics aspect - if it's a recessive gene and you need two copies of it to show the talent, then every child of two talents would be a talent. Every child of one talent and one normal would carry at least one copy of the gene - could have two if the normal also carried one gene. And any child born could be a talent though the probability is likely low. So a breeding programme would be fraught with problems as well as the obvious ethical dilemmas. But over time - multiple generations, recessive alleles can still become predominant in a population.



This is their intention. There are divisions in the council regarding the ethical dilemmas - those will be explored at various points in the series that I intend to base in this world.



psychotick said:


> The question becomes, how much time, power, control do these Council people have to embark on this project? How many generations? Also, why are some talents stronger / weaker than others? Do they all have the same gene? Is it simply expressed differently in differently people? Or are there multiple recessive magic genes?
> 
> Cheers, Greg.



The control and power over the experiments are limited - I am toying with one faction in the council secretly developing baby farms as their answer to control. Power wise, the outer city is unpoliced (thief-takers a bounty hunter type role occupy the niche for law enforcement here - with obvious issues) The council is a criminal organisation as it has had to go underground - again toying with different approaches in other countries - but don't need to worry about that too much yet as it won't impact this book.

The question regarding different types of genes is an interesting one - I will have a play around with some ideas on that - off the cuff thinking  - different genes which produce different combinations and hence different talents - will have to produce a grid for that and consider the generational effects - this would then allow further combinations in successive generations that produce more powerful talents.


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## Holman (Jul 23, 2017)

Futhark said:


> Hmm...kinda vague, but I haven't posted in a while so I'll give it a whirl.
> 
> Minor talents manipulate the senses so there could be trackers like dogs, or tasters to detect poison.  Super weathermen could be living barometers.  Enhanced sight and hearing would work well in espionage or for hunting.  A super sensitive touch would be good for builders, as they would detect flaws in stonework and the like.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the thoughts.

Regarding your questions, I'll start with Church becoming the global power first - This is the result of a fallen Empire - this had a religion that that they spread as they dominated their continent - The Empire become too big - and once it had conquered the continent had nowhere to expand to - resulting in the collapse into smaller kingdoms - each of which kept the religion - although there are some regional differences for want of a better word. There is still a Synod that meets to discuss religious matters, but there is no magical means for transport or communication.

As for why it is recessive - I may have to think that through a little more following on from a previous post which has given me a little to think about. But essentially I didn't want a dominant magic gene that resulted in everyone being magic in some way or other. The magic gene is the result of a broken protein chain, but if there are more than one type of magic gene I will need to consider how that all fits together. Most of this isn't for print but for me to make sure I don't really obviously create any plot holes during the outlining.


Cheers for the welcome


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## TinyHippo (Jul 23, 2017)

I do not know how much you know about genetics, but if you can incorporate a bit of knowledge into your story, then you can have it any way you like it. I can see you get the part with dominant and recessive alleles (inherited traits) and if you get partly dominant, partly recessive alleles you will evolve a dominant phenotype (gene). Therefore to insure the magical genes in newborn babies you will have the breed the right parents, both carrying the recessive allele.

Although, there is another solution. Mutation!
Broken recessive alleles may become the dominant allele. This happens in real life in around 1/600000 phenotype, of which you have 300 billions (1/1.8*10^16 % chance, in other words impossible). It would of course be super-duper rare if the magical gene was determined by a single phenotype, like the blue/brown eye color phenotype is. Which has only occured once in the 110 billions people who has ever lived.
But if the genes were more complex, as something like the sickle-cell mutation, you can add up some statistics and maybe even add factors like environment and nutritions. In that case the mutation could happen in maybe 0.1-1% of the population.

Hopefully this could be helpful and feel free to question me on some of this stuff. If you're looking to go deep with science, I am fairly confident I can help you. Otherwise, my advice would be to stay away from it. Readers are smart nowadays and have fauxfact pet peeves.


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## Holman (Jul 23, 2017)

TinyHippo said:


> I do not know how much you know about genetics, but if you can incorporate a bit of knowledge into your story, then you can have it any way you like it. I can see you get the part with dominant and recessive alleles (inherited traits) and if you get partly dominant, partly recessive alleles you will evolve a dominant phenotype (gene). Therefore to insure the magical genes in newborn babies you will have the breed the right parents, both carrying the recessive allele.



The answer to how much, is probably not enough. The idea of the breeding programme from the character's perspective is from the idea of breeding dogs - you select the traits you want and breed - culling those results where the strain doesn't breed true (a mad scientist character if you will)



TinyHippo said:


> Although, there is another solution. Mutation!
> Broken recessive alleles may become the dominant allele. This happens in real life in around 1/600000 phenotype, of which you have 300 billions (1/1.8*10^16 % chance, in other words impossible). It would of course be super-duper rare if the magical gene was determined by a single phenotype, like the blue/brown eye color phenotype is. Which has only occured once in the 110 billions people who has ever lived.
> But if the genes were more complex, as something like the sickle-cell mutation, you can add up some statistics and maybe even add factors like environment and nutritions. In that case the mutation could happen in maybe 0.1-1% of the population.
> 
> Hopefully this could be helpful and feel free to question me on some of this stuff. If you're looking to go deep with science, I am fairly confident I can help you. Otherwise, my advice would be to stay away from it. Readers are smart nowadays and have fauxfact pet peeves.



Mutation was my original thought for the development - and if I decide to explore further back into the history of the world I may indeed find a group of people who were somehow exposed to a source of radiation of some description that caused these mutations. With regards to putting this knowledge out there for the reader, I am unlikely to go into too much depth, simply because the knowledge of genetics wouldn't have existed given the technology level of the world - which is equivalent to the middle/late of the agricultural/very early industrial revolution. The discussion is more for me to develop my own understanding of the idea.

Thank you for your offer of help, I may end up asking if future plot developments require it.


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## elemtilas (Jul 23, 2017)

Holman said:


> This is their intention. There are divisions in the council regarding the ethical dilemmas - those will be explored at various points in the series that I intend to base in this world.



One thing I'd take note of... The idea that there is actually some kind of ethical 'dilemma' here is, I think, largely a function of our own worldview based in Christian culture and ethics.

Without knowing anything else about the culture or religion in question, I'd wonder if there really is a dilemma. After all, even *here* we breed cattle and tomatoes with the intention of creating better stock. It may not be so obvious, but we're also pretty good at selective breeding of our own kind. There are plenty of primary world ethnic and religious groups who simply don't mate with outsiders. 

I can easily imagine a scenario where a persecuted minority turns its back on external society, refuses to interact with it. I'd see it as a kind of natural extension of this mindset for the Council to say, 'hey, we're already a persecuted minority, why not try and turn this to our advantage?' Kind of like the Pure v. Muggleborn situation in the Harry Potter stories, but more overt.


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## Holman (Jul 23, 2017)

elemtilas said:


> I can easily imagine a scenario where a persecuted minority turns its back on external society, refuses to interact with it. I'd see it as a kind of natural extension of this mindset for the Council to say, 'hey, we're already a persecuted minority, why not try and turn this to our advantage?' Kind of like the Pure v. Muggleborn situation in the Harry Potter stories, but more overt.



This is exactly the world view of some of the members of the council - The Voldemort view using your analogy. Others  believe that they have a duty to "bring back magic" for the benefit of all, they can cope with selective breeding but not imprisonment and secret labs with people as guinea-pigs. They use "Persuasion" a talent of the voice to encourage couples together "This is the partner you are looking for." Or use the honey trap to get what they want.

One problem that I do have is identification of the talented. With no gene testing the only way of spotting someone talented id for them to be seen using the talent which makes identifying some people with specific talents very difficult. How do they know who to bring into a breeding programme - one possible answer was that they were a closed community and bread their own children - a magical elite if you like - but the fact they have to hide made me unhappy with that as a solution.

The challenges of world building.


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## psychotick (Jul 23, 2017)

Hi,

Just had a thought. It may be off track but you could consider the Bene Gesserit from Dune as a template for your magical council.

Cheers, Greg.


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## elemtilas (Jul 23, 2017)

Holman said:


> One problem that I do have is identification of the talented. With no gene testing the only way of spotting someone talented id for them to be seen using the talent which makes identifying some people with specific talents very difficult.



Is there a talent for scoping out other talent? How early does it manifest? Perhaps when children start manifesting all over the place, that's when such identifications are made?



> How do they know who to bring into a breeding programme - one possible answer was that they were a closed community and bread their own children - a magical elite if you like



This makes sense given the persecuted minority theme you've got going. I would think they'd be rather less than likely to interact with outsiders. As the magical elite begin and continue to identify magical families that "breed true", it becomes much easier to introduce the persuasion talent to nudge a particular girl and boy together.



> - but the fact they have to hide made me unhappy with that as a solution.
> 
> The challenges of world building.



Yep! I guess you'd have to consider the reasons why they hide. Being rounded up and genocided is a pretty good rationale, and one I wouldn't argue with.


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## Vaporo (Jul 23, 2017)

Nobody seems to have asked the obvious question yet: Why has this trait not already spread to the entire population? This is a big question that is never dealt with in a lot of fantasies that use some kind of inherited magical power. A genetic trait that give that great of advantage, no matter how recessive, would spread very quickly to everyone. Is the trait a fairly new development within, say, the last few hundred years? That's the only thing I can think of that would really explain it.


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## elemtilas (Jul 23, 2017)

Vaporo said:


> Nobody seems to have asked the obvious question yet: Why has this trait not already spread to the entire population? This is a big question that is never dealt with in a lot of fantasies that use some kind of inherited magical power. A genetic trait that give that great of advantage, no matter how recessive, would spread very quickly to everyone. Is the trait a fairly new development within, say, the last few hundred years? That's the only thing I can think of that would really explain it.



I could be wrong, but I think Holman addressed at least some of these questions in the original post. These _talents_ are clearly manifest in the population at large. With sufficient numbers to have attracted the unwelcome attentions of the religious structure. I guess by the time the story takes place, _talented_ people have long been known about. But it's the concentration of them in urban areas that is making things interesting.


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## K.S. Crooks (Jul 23, 2017)

What if your magic "gene" is like skin colour or height. These are determined by multiple genes, skin colour being at least five. If your magic had five genes that in their recessive form give a person magical abilities then it would be harder to remove from the population. This also could explain why some people have more power- a five recessive person has more power than a 3, who has more power than a one. Being a carrier may also have an effect on power or in determining the type of ability created. This would make certain families what to marry/have children together to try to have children at the highest levels of magic.

For identification of those with magic, what if a type of birthmark is on all with the power. Most would be lucky to have it somewhere easy to hide, for a small few it might be on their hand or face, thus making them easy to identify. Perhaps the purge was done by examining all newborns. Parents who had magic or new it ran in the family would hideout their pregnancy or births or even the children.


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## Holman (Jul 24, 2017)

K.S. Crooks said:


> What if your magic "gene" is like skin colour or height. These are determined by multiple genes, skin colour being at least five. If your magic had five genes that in their recessive form give a person magical abilities then it would be harder to remove from the population. This also could explain why some people have more power- a five recessive person has more power than a 3, who has more power than a one. Being a carrier may also have an effect on power or in determining the type of ability created. This would make certain families what to marry/have children together to try to have children at the highest levels of magic.



This is an excellent point and builds on a point made further up the thread - I started working on a "talent grid" that is based on there being more than one gene type and the possible pairings - some of the talents could be complimentary and if there is more than one gene present then this would give them more power and/or produce different abilities. More fuel to the fire - thanks



K.S. Crooks said:


> For identification of those with magic, what if a type of birthmark is on all with the power. Most would be lucky to have it somewhere easy to hide, for a small few it might be on their hand or face, thus making them easy to identify. Perhaps the purge was done by examining all newborns. Parents who had magic or new it ran in the family would hideout their pregnancy or births or even the children.




The birthmark fits in nicely with stories of witch-finders using pins to stab large moles etc to see if they were the devil's mark. Certainly something to consider.


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## Holman (Jul 24, 2017)

Vaporo said:


> Nobody seems to have asked the obvious question yet: Why has this trait not already spread to the entire population? This is a big question that is never dealt with in a lot of fantasies that use some kind of inherited magical power. A genetic trait that give that great of advantage, no matter how recessive, would spread very quickly to everyone. Is the trait a fairly new development within, say, the last few hundred years? That's the only thing I can think of that would really explain it.



That was the battle that I was having - hence the purge. Using the point about there being several genes that actually give "talents" to people would reduce the number of people the exhibit the talent - there needs to be a certain combination before the talents are activated - further reducing the probability. 

The recent movement increase in population that has resulted from the agricultural revolution has resulted in a larger pool of people who are carriers of the recessive gene and thus the spike in numbers - previously selective breeding of families has given some greater power and kept them hidden.

I am thinking on the fly here - so thanks for the questions as having to explain or at least recognise the question is very helpful.


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## psychotick (Jul 24, 2017)

Hi,

Just realised - you mentioned a purge. You can't really get rid of a recessive gene through purges etc. Because most people who carry the gene will only have one and so won't show it.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Holman (Jul 24, 2017)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just realised - you mentioned a purge. You can't really get rid of a recessive gene through purges etc. Because most people who carry the gene will only have one and so won't show it.
> 
> Cheers, Greg.



Thanks Greg - the purge will however get rid of those who are exhibiting the gene and reduce the number who are powerful in "magic" and make those remain hide or be careful about it. If the combination of genes required to produce a talent was rare enough then magic would also be rare in returning - wouldn't it?

Example -like having brown skin and ginger hair - if you purge all the people who exhibit this then although it can happen again ( i am assuming it can happen - this may be a bad example) it would be very rare unless larger numbers of people were brought together and or people with ginger hair and or brown skin were procreating.


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## Steerpike (Jul 24, 2017)

My first question would be: how do these genes impart magical ability to someone? You can have a hereditary magic system without bringing genes into it, where you just sort of handwave it as a property of magic. That's seen in fantasy--some people are born with an affinity for magic, some are not. Once you start introducing genetics into it you are signaling to the reader that this is all going to make some kind of scientific sense. Once you set up that expectation, you should fulfill it. When you promise something as an author, it is important to deliver on it. If you set this up as genetic, and you're talking about recessive traits and gene pairings, etc., and then none of it ends up making sense, I think you'll have a bigger problem on your hands than if you just handwaved it from the start.

A few things come to mind:

1) you mention in the original post multiple types of magic but only one magic gene. It looks like that may have evolved over the course of the thread. I think that's a good, because otherwise you'd have to think about how the single gene exhibits different magical capabilities in different people. Not that you can't explain it--you can--but it will take some additional work.

2) as noted above, something like this would move through a population fairly quickly. It sounds like, taking what you've written as a whole, that the mutation is relatively recent. I think that makes sense. If it is something people have always had, since prehistoric times in your world, it is harder to explain why it hasn't become more established in the population. I'd think about what kind of selective pressures favor the traits, and what kind disfavor it.

3) if this isn't a really recent phenomenon, but has been around a while, I'd wonder why the people who have the genes are the persecuted ones instead of the ones in power. In time, it seems to me that you'd likely end up with a world where the people who have the magical talent are in political power, not out of it. Of course, this can also be explained, but without an explanation I'd wonder why this was the case.

4) think about epigenetic effects in your magic system. That could give you a lot more room to play around than straightforward Mendelian genetics.


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## Holman (Jul 24, 2017)

I understand that I could handwave it - and I may yet - but one thing that has always frustrated me a little about fantasy is that it is just handwaved as "an affinity" this implies that it is a skill and anyone can learn it - if this was the case then there would be many more magicians in fantasy stories - so I wanted to explore the idea of it being genetic in someway.

I was tempted to explore it originally as the result of consuming certain substances by magicians in the past (think shamanistic rituals and a hallucinogenic compounds) having an effect on the body in unexpected ways - beyond giving them the ability to commune with "spirits" and thus create magic.

With regards to power - the long term project would be that there would be an uprising with various factions - take the marvel X men universe as the example here - but with magic instead of random mutations caused by random events. The hero of the piece getting thrust into power as part of this. It fits his character arc quite nicely and exacerbates some of the issues he has as his underlying Lie.

I will have to do some further reading on epigenetic effects but the crux appears to be the way that the code is read changes rather than the code itself.


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## Holman (Jul 29, 2017)

After a bit of thought and a bit of playing around with the basic plot outline - and sitting and writing three separate character introductions to the story to play with a few ideas, I have the following tweaks to the history and current world that may answer some of the questions thrown up.

The church is now a much bigger player in the story. The Parsonage has taken upon itself to control magicians. Parsons must swear an oath of celibacy - one that is fiercely enforced by the the leadership of the church across the former Empire. Children are tested just before their 10th year - given the high mortality rate it isn't worth doing prior to this, in addition the ability isn't "quickened" for want of a better word (and the fact that I saw a bit of Highlander the other day) until they hit puberty. This testing is an examination of the body for "witchmarks" The gene also causes the skin to produce areas of darker pigmentation to appear - children with "witchmarks" are taken to be trained to be priests - those that can be brainwashed to believe become priests - those that don't are killed. The church wants sole control of magic so that anything that occurs can be attributed to divine intervention. 

The nobility had risen to power due to magical abilities - these families were however purged as part of the popular rebellion that gave the church power  - The church keeps records of family lineages and keeps a very close eye on the old noble bloodlines - it is some branches of these bloodlines that escaped during the purge that have formed the Hidden Council - the majority of them are involved in the criminal underworld, either as smugglers, thieves, madams of brothels and fences. They have formed gangs in the cities, they also keep an eye out for children with witchmarks to add to the gene pool that they are trying to breed from.

The leadership of the country is a king who is from a non-magical noble family that supported the rebellion and purge and took the opportunity to denounce their fellow nobles and seize power. There is significant tension between him and The Parson, the leader of the church. The King controls the inner city, which includes the largest harbour in the country - he essentially controls the trade- he is also popular amoung the masses as he uses the wealth that he gains from taxes to keep them happy with bread and circuses.

The church are much less popular, they have established an authority based on fear. Fear that they will take your children, and fear that they will burn you or torture you for heresy. The current Parson, a powerful woman (nod to the Bene Gesserit) has established a programme to eliminate poverty - this is actually supported by the king - There is a church and state sponsored Board of Guardians that run Workhouses for the homeless and destitute. As you can imagine these are not pleasant places to live. If you are found on the streets at night you can be gathered up by the "Sweepers" and placed in workhouses - where you are essentially slave labour for the church - all goods that the church needs are manufactured in the workhouses - children who are gathered up are tested - if they are seen to be "godly" they are easier to train as priests.

Rogue magicians are hunted by "Wringers" so called because their favourite method of gathering information is to feed parts of you through a mangle until you give up the information or die. This is the part of the church that is feared most.

The church covers the continent (there is only one known continent at present - the typical Endless Sea separates it from any others that may exist). It has mixed relationships with leaders of the various countries that have arisen as part of the break up of the Empire, while it doesn't involve itself in any conflicts, it has been thought that they have removed leaders of countries that opposed them.

Sorry if this seems a little rambling but I haven't typed up a history of the world yet and I am still working out a timeline. I hope that this covers the questions raised previously in the thread.

Which were in essence:
Why aren't the magicians in power?
How do you stop magic from reappearing randomly and if it does what is done about it?


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