# Using real world weapon names



## JamesTFHS (Oct 16, 2012)

Ok so as i think of my characters and the types of weapons they will use and a few of the ones i wish to choose come from obvious cultures. My question is do you see a problem with using that weapons original name? Example having a character use a katana(not really going to happen in my book just an example). I am using alot of real world names for specific cultures. Like one character is Arashi. Its japanese and he is an elf though he is apart of one culture of elves that i have use japanese names.


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## shangrila (Oct 16, 2012)

No, of course not. If it's a katana, then call it one. There's no reason to call it something different just for the sake of it.


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## Gurkhal (Oct 17, 2012)

It probably depends on. If the other words associated with the culture that came up with the katana is using similar words I would use it, but if they use almost only English words for everything the odd non-English name on stuff would , for me that is, break some suspecion unless you could show where that name comes from in your setting. 

But maybe that's just me.


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## Jess A (Oct 17, 2012)

I see your point here and I largely agree with Gurkhal. I think an overload of Japanese object names would seem thoughtless to my picky mind (not including character names; I note Feist used Japanese-sounding names for one of his original 'races'). You could generalise and state that it is a gracefully curved sword (for example). You could state early on that it is a sword used by that group of people and the readers will later relate the described sword with the people/character. I would, personally, give it a different name myself if the sword has a strong relation to the storyline or defines the character (in the eyes of other, different cultures, for instance, who may relate that type of sword as one used by that character's culture often), but I like naming things. Most (not all) people will be focusing on the storyline rather than the smallest details, as sad as that is for writers when they love to world build.


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## CupofJoe (Oct 17, 2012)

It is a fine line to thread. You want to sound realistic and let your reader understand what you mean [without half a page of description before they go "Oh it's a sword..."]. I try to keep to language groups for each race or country [so one group would have Germanic sounding names, another Hungarian...]. The trouble I have is that English has co-opted so many names-for-things that it is almost impossible not to include those from other cultures. Of the top of my head I can think of Cot, Crimson, Ketchup, Jungle, Thug and dozen more.


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## Penpilot (Oct 17, 2012)

If it quacks like a duck, acts like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's a freakin' duck. Why bother renaming it into something else when someone will suddenly realize after the description that, hey that's a katana. Why didn't they just call it a katana?


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## Mindfire (Oct 17, 2012)

Penpilot said:


> If it quacks like a duck, acts like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's a freakin' duck. Why bother renaming it into something else when someone will suddenly realize after the description that, hey that's a katana. Why didn't they just call it a katana?



I think there is a point where renaming is appropriate. E.g., if the Katana is the sole thing of Japanese influence you have, its going to stick out like a sore thumb if you call it by its right name. It won't feel organic, but rather that the author lazily tossed it in for Rule of Cool. Robert Jordan's Heron Mark swords are essentially katanas judging by the art and licensed reproduction, but he never calls them that AFAIK because it would feel out of place.


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## JamesTFHS (Oct 17, 2012)

Alot of you made good points here. i especially liked the duck comment Penpilot lol. I do have more weapons than just the katana i chose it as an example because it is probably the most recognizable sword out there. The main weapon from japan i am thinking of using is a naginata and that is for my female character that i mentioned in a previous post awhile back. I also plan on using a variety of other weapons from other cultures and i do find places for them that corresponds with a similar culture.

so my next question is do you think this idea works? does it take away an element of fantasy from the story bringing in real world weapons?


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## Mindfire (Oct 17, 2012)

JamesTFHS said:


> Alot of you made good points here. i especially liked the duck comment Penpilot lol. I do have more weapons than just the katana i chose it as an example because it is probably the most recognizable sword out there. The main weapon from japan i am thinking of using is a naginata and that is for my female character that i mentioned in a previous post awhile back. I also plan on using a variety of other weapons from other cultures and i do find places for them that corresponds with a similar culture.
> 
> so my next question is do you think this idea works? does it take away an element of fantasy from the story bringing in real world weapons?



Absolutely not. We see European weapons in fantasy all the time, even though they have as much right to be in an alien culture as katanas do, but we accept it, mostly because of cultural bias. Getting more visibility to weapons of other cultures, and thus indirectly to the cultures themselves, is a good thing. And since you've borrowed more than just the katana, it shouldn't stick out so much. Just make sure you integrate them organically into the world and you're good.


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## wordwalker (Oct 19, 2012)

Part of the problem is that weapons are a weird mix of independently invented similar things and particular names that one exact thing got called in history. How much a name is tied to history and how much it's a "class" of weapon can drive you crazy.

I think the best you can do is try to guess the impressions it makes, each time. "Saber" just looks more generic --to the Western eye, but I assume you're writing in English-- than "katana," but maybe you do want your world to suggest the precision crafting and samurai-like discipline that went with katanas, and then do you or don't you want more sprinklings of quasi-Japanese in the mix too...

If you don't like a historical name, "sword (gracefully curved)" really works, but what you lose is you risk people forgetting the shape of the blade unless you keep adding the detail. Or you can make up your own names-- and if there's a short list of things that deserve their own names in your world, weapons are probably cool enough to make that list.


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## Leif Notae (Oct 20, 2012)

You want to keep your readers in mind when you are doing this. When you go into great detail about what the katana looks like without telling them it is a katana, they will grow frustrated with you and your pointless description to build it up. Humans are used to the specifics around them, and in this day and age they don't have time for you to ramble about things they already know. 

If you want to do it, you can say "X is almost like a katana" or just call it a katana. There's no problem and there is no immersion breaking.


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## Graylorne (Oct 20, 2012)

I wouldn't use a word from a language that doesn't exist in my world (not only katana, but something like claymore, too). They often convey the wrong mood. 

Besides, many readers wouldn't really know how a katana looked, so you have to describe it in a few words anyhow ('He drew his sword, a slender, slightly curved blade that exuded wickedness') to set the mood.

Finally, I'm sure most readers wouldn't care what type of sword it is, as long as there's fighting, blood spattering and danger. But they could stumble over a name that's out of context and you don't want that in an action scene.


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## Mindfire (Oct 20, 2012)

Leif Notae said:


> You want to keep your readers in mind when you are doing this. When you go into great detail about what the katana looks like without telling them it is a katana, they will grow frustrated with you and your pointless description to build it up. Humans are used to the specifics around them, and in this day and age they don't have time for you to ramble about things they already know.
> 
> If you want to do it, you can say "X is almost like a katana" or just call it a katana. There's no problem and there is no immersion breaking.



No. Do NOT say "X is almost like a katana". That's quite possibly one of the worst description techniques out there, along with having your character stare at him/herself in a mirror.


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## Zero Angel (Oct 20, 2012)

Penpilot said:


> If it quacks like a duck, acts like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's a freakin' duck. Why bother renaming it into something else when someone will suddenly realize after the description that, hey that's a katana. Why didn't they just call it a katana?



THAT"S WHAT I WAS GONNA SAY 



Mindfire said:


> I think there is a point where renaming is appropriate. E.g., if the Katana is the sole thing of Japanese influence you have, its going to stick out like a sore thumb if you call it by its right name. It won't feel organic, but rather that the author lazily tossed it in for Rule of Cool. Robert Jordan's Heron Mark swords are essentially katanas judging by the art and licensed reproduction, but he never calls them that AFAIK because it would feel out of place.


And then you have readers like me that hate everything Jordan's done with renaming crap I should know what he's talking about but don't because he had to rename every bloody thing--including heron-marked swords apparently. 

I've considered putting a disclaimer in my books saying, "This is a story that does not take place in English, or even on a planet where English is spoken, and yet the story you are reading is written in English. Please forgive using English instead of the fictional languages of this work."


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## Zero Angel (Oct 20, 2012)

Penpilot said:


> If it quacks like a duck, acts like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's a freakin' duck. Why bother renaming it into something else when someone will suddenly realize after the description that, hey that's a katana. Why didn't they just call it a katana?





Mindfire said:


> I think there is a point where renaming is appropriate. E.g., if the Katana is the sole thing of Japanese influence you have, its going to stick out like a sore thumb if you call it by its right name. It won't feel organic, but rather that the author lazily tossed it in for Rule of Cool. Robert Jordan's Heron Mark swords are essentially katanas judging by the art and licensed reproduction, but he never calls them that AFAIK because it would feel out of place.





Graylorne said:


> I wouldn't use a word from a language that doesn't exist in my world (not only katana, but something like claymore, too). They often convey the wrong mood.
> 
> Besides, many readers wouldn't really know how a katana looked, so you have to describe it in a few words anyhow ('He drew his sword, a slender, slightly curved blade that exuded wickedness') to set the mood.
> 
> Finally, I'm sure most readers wouldn't care what type of sword it is, as long as there's fighting, blood spattering and danger. But they could stumble over a name that's out of context and you don't want that in an action scene.



I care. For instance, if I had known that heron-marked swords in Wheel of Time were katana, then I would have enjoyed them much more and known exactly what he was talking about without having to invent them in my head. 

One sticky point though is if you use the original word or the English-borrowed version. For instance, in Japanese, two katana is two katana, but in American, we would say two katanas.


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## Ankari (Oct 20, 2012)

Zero Angel said:


> I care. For instance, if I had known that heron-marked swords in Wheel of Time were katana, then I would have enjoyed them much more and known exactly what he was talking about without having to invent them in my head.
> 
> One sticky point though is if you use the original word or the English-borrowed version. For instance, in Japanese, two katana is two katana, but in American, we would say two katanas.



Heron-marked blades aren't katanas.  They are katanas wielded by sword master.  You can have the same sword without the heron marking on it. 

He actually described the swords perfectly.

Single edged, slightly curved blades that could be held with one hand or two.

The first time I read it, I knew exactly what he was trying to say.


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## Zero Angel (Oct 20, 2012)

Ankari said:


> Heron-marked blades aren't katanas.  They are katanas wielded by sword master.  You can have the same sword without the heron marking on it.
> 
> He actually described the swords perfectly.
> 
> ...



I was picturing a cross between a saber and a katana. Good for you knowing exactly what he was trying to say. Doesn't change the annoyance I felt towards the description when there was a perfectly good single noun that would have described it.


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## Mindfire (Oct 20, 2012)

Zero Angel said:


> I was picturing a cross between a saber and a katana. Good for you knowing exactly what he was trying to say. Doesn't change the annoyance I felt towards the description when there was a perfectly good single noun that would have described it.



There's a reproduction out there that apparently Jordan supervised. Note however, that it is _a_ Heron Mark Sword, not _the_ Heron Mark Sword owned by Tam (whoever that is, I'm sure the Jordanites among us will know).


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## Mindfire (Oct 20, 2012)

It has European and Japanese influence, but if I had to strip it to barebones and pick one word to describe it, I'd say katana.


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## Graylorne (Oct 20, 2012)

Then I wasn't all that far off with my earlier description, even if it's not really wicked-looking. 
And I still wouldn't call it a katana if my story was based on on a culture of Polish bojars. Or golden elves from the mountains of P'hara


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## Mindfire (Oct 20, 2012)

Graylorne said:


> Then I wasn't all that far off with my earlier description, even if it's not really wicked-looking.
> And I still wouldn't call it a katana if my story was based on on a culture of Polish bojars. Or golden elves from the mountains of P'hara



It might feel out of place then, yes.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Oct 22, 2012)

JamesTFHS said:


> Ok so as i think of my characters and the types of weapons they will use and a few of the ones i wish to choose come from obvious cultures. My question is do you see a problem with using that weapons original name? Example having a character use a katana(not really going to happen in my book just an example). I am using alot of real world names for specific cultures. Like one character is Arashi. Its japanese and he is an elf though he is apart of one culture of elves that i have use japanese names.



Sounds like you are doing something highly stylized here, so from an outside perspective it's hard to say what fits your concept and what doesn't.

Realistically, though, if there is no Japan in your world, then the should be no katana either. What there might is is swords that _resemble _the katana due to having been developed in similar circumstances. So, you would describe it as a katana but not call it that.

Anyway, old-timey people didn't actually give their swords fancy special designations or even categorize different swords much at all - for the most part, a sword was just a sword. 



Mindfire said:


> Robert Jordan's Heron Mark swords are essentially katanas judging by the art and licensed reproduction, but he never calls them that AFAIK because it would feel out of place.



I vehemently disagree - the WoT swords are not katana. This is absolutely not a katana.

A katana is a very specific kind of sword - you can't just say "every two-handed saber is essentially a katana," just because it looks similar and does the same thing. Or rather, you can't use "katana" as the _default._

Example: Would you call this sword or this sword a "katana"?

If you do, you are wrong, because they are both late period Chinese dao that have little or nothing at all to do with Japanese swords.

Likewise, this is a European kriegsmesser, and this is a Burmese dha.

You kinda need to take the context into consideration, is what I'm basically saying. So, calling the WoT heron swords "katana" doesn't really make sense.



Graylorne said:


> I wouldn't use a word from a language that doesn't exist in my world (not only katana, but something like claymore, too). They often convey the wrong mood.



This, pretty much.



> Besides, many readers wouldn't really know how a katana looked, so you have to describe it in a few words anyhow ('He drew his sword, a slender, slightly curved blade that exuded wickedness') to set the mood.
> 
> Finally, I'm sure most readers wouldn't care what type of sword it is, as long as there's fighting, blood spattering and danger. But they could stumble over a name that's out of context and you don't want that in an action scene.



This as well. 

Actually, if you say it's a curved, two-handed and deadly sharp sword, most people will think "katana" anyway. If you want to be really sure they get it, just mentioned the beautiful wave pattern on the edge at some point, or research traditional Japanese sword care and have your characters do the same thing. 

Personally, I think I would find having "Look! It's a katana!" showed in my face would just be kinda annoying. Especially since the type of sword probably isn't important to begin with - we are basically talking about fluff here, details we put into our stories because we think they are cool and not because they matter to the plot.


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## S.T. Ockenner (Jul 14, 2020)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> because we think they are cool and not because they matter to the plo


Not necessarily. A different sword would be fought with slightly differently. For example, Greatswords. You can't use a Greatsword the same way you would a Longsword or an Arming Sword or a Shortsword. Greatswords were historically used very similarly to a pole-arm, you wouldn't swing it, you would jab with it. They were also built differently then other swords, being WAY longer and thinner. Plus, some readers would want to know what kind of sword it was, especially detail oriented ones such as myself.


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## Za'dok Khoal (Jul 15, 2020)

I think this is more subjective to the writer and their preferences. I haven't run into this one yet, but, myself I have a love of designing the weapons, swords, armor and such that I like to name them as my own. If you are straight up using a katana or arming sword I guess using those names would be ok. Then again, personally  if I were reading a fantasy story that took place in a far off land (not Earth) and all the sudden a katana was in the mix, idk, it may distract me from the story. Call it a weakness, but I read fiction most of the time to escape, our world, get a reprieve, I don't think it would work for me. Then again, if the story is well written and it doesn't detract, I may not even notice.


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## S J Lee (Jul 15, 2020)

If you have a lot of detailed combat and clever moves, it matters whether it is a longsword or a shortsword. Me, I would avoid "gladius" in Ye Faux-Medieval-Fantasy-World. I would avoid "sax". I would avoid "katana". I go for "English" words because their "Common" is basically "English". I avoid "falchion" and "glaive" because they can be generic words, OR specific weapons, and I have no narrator to explain it. Sorry, no idea what to do if you NEED an EXACT copy of a katana. Just remember that samurai doing real fighting on the battlefield before 1600 didn't rate them all that highly, they were more of a back-up weapon...?

I think Tolkien used falchion and brand to mean more or less any sword, and it did not matter much because precise sword-fighting was not what he wanted to put in his book.....
But I have bills and ... one nobleman likes a RAPIER! Now I am looking at it again....


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## Miles Lacey (Jul 16, 2020)

Personally, I think using real world names for weapons is okay .  After all, if your world has cars, airships and horses you'd still call them cars, airships and horses.  I see no reason why weapons should be any different.  

But... 

When you're describing a particular type or brand of weapon this may not work so well.  A katana is a particular type of sword traditionally reserved for a samurai warrior.  While a character having a katana in a pseudo-feudal east Asian society would be acceptable (if not necessarily historically accurate) for most readers they would be very unforgiving if a katana appears in a pseudo-medieval European society unless there's a logical reason for it, such as the katana being a gift or the character has come from a non-European society.  Likewise, a cutlass is associated with piracy so a reader is unlikely to react favorably to a highwayman hiding in an English forest having a cutlass unless s/he's a former pirate.

In short, let the context of the story and the setting determine if using real world names for weapons is appropriate or not.


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## S J Lee (Jul 16, 2020)

It occurs to me that GRR Martin was right to use the word "arakh" and not "khopesh" or "sabre" ... he had to describe them at first, of course, but I think that is ok because they reappear multiple times in the story....

HOWEVER when I saw the TV series I was disappointed somehow... the Dothraki on TV were using some sort of sickle? Bah humbug!


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## Sunny dewbae (Jul 22, 2020)

I do not think it is a issue. I would probably try to use other Japanese style swords that are less known like a odachi, tachi


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