# General help with my setting?



## flashfire07 (Oct 30, 2011)

Recently I decided to create an unusual fantasy setting for my stories,  I was wonderingif anyone would like to help me flesh it out a bit more?

So far the setting is this world crated after an entity known as Him tried to invade and twist the Real World into what He felt the universe should be. Two powerful entities known as the Black King and White King fought him and split him into four Halves which were sealed away Over There and in the Real World to minimize the chance of someone putting the Halves back together and bringing Him back. Then Over There was separated from the Real World. Over There is inhabited by creatures known as Unreals (weird monsters and whatnot), Faeries and humans. The two Kings have created two groups to prevent anyone from finding the Halves of Him, the Black King created the Iron Guard to keep the the Unreals in check and the White King created the Blind Ones to keep the Halves hidden. So far the Faeries have shown no interest in the Halves so the only risk comes from the occasional Unreal and the human population. There are many different types of Unreal, they all desire to become Real though and thus have to kill a certain number of Real creatures, Over There humans are the only things that are Real enough for this purpose. Recently however a section of the Iron Guard have developed strange powers and have begun to act strangely, they have the power to decay anything they touch and follow an entity known as Him. Naturally this has caused alarm in the Iron Guard and thus a conflict between the Iron Guard and this Legion of Rust is taking place. The Blind ones are offering no advice on this situation, this is causing the Iron Guard to become suspicious that the Legion of Rust and the Blind Ones may have some plan that the Guard are being left out of. 


The Blind Ones are an order of monks who dress in white robes and specialize in imprisoning, binding and hindering their enemies, their magic is geared towards incarceration without destruction and their hand-to-hand combat styles rely on trapping and diverting enemy attacks.

The Iron Guard resemble knights in dark grey armour, they prefer to use gunpowder weapons and refuse to touch anything magic related. Their tactics are geared towards destroying the threat as quickly and efficiently as possible, they are experts at shock and awe tactics, relying on intimidation backed up by superior firepower to get the job done. Never ones to shy away from a fight they have a reputation for shooting first and asking questions later.

The landmass of the world itself is largely covered by forests of fungus and scrubland. large parts have died off completely, leaving a grey, rotting network of fungi, bones and dust. What's not dead or covered in fungus is mostly scrubland with the Whispering Woods being the only exception.

That's all I've come up with so far, if anyone would like to help me with this it would be greatly appreciated.


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## sashamerideth (Oct 30, 2011)

Interesting enough sounding world, but a world in itself is not compelling.  The success or failure of individuals and their suffering, pain, and success is what makes readers interested in the work.


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## Dreamhand (Oct 30, 2011)

Flashfire, you're quite clearly a world-builder.  I'm betting you enjoy "setting up the game board" in broad strokes, defining boundaries and dogmas, organizations and religions, each driven by their own clearly defined goals and objectives.  I'm also going to to hazard a guess that you're a gamer, and one of those rare table-top breeds.  The powers and armor descriptions and weapon choices all have that "roll the dice" feel to them.

Please don't take ANY of those suppositions as any kind of criticism.  See... it takes one to know one, bud.  I'm cut from the exact same cloth.

But Sasha's right.  A cool world (and the world you're sketching there is VERY cool) doesn't make for a cool story.  As cool as Middle Earth is, the _reason_ it's cool is because there's a Gandalf in it.  And a Frodo... and a Samwise Gamgee.

I would love to see you follow this up with the description of three characters that will embody your story.  If you do (and I really hope you do), then consider this...

You have cast a HUGE epic scope with this world that you've built.  If you try and cast HUGE epic characters in it then they're going to get lost in the HUGE epic-ness of it all.  It'll be like having a bright red background with bright red characters in the foreground... it'll all get lost in a wash of noise.

The best way to make something stand out is to contrast it with something else completely.   What do you say?


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## flashfire07 (Oct 31, 2011)

> But Sasha's right. A cool world (and the world you're sketching there is VERY cool) doesn't make for a cool story. As cool as Middle Earth is, the reason it's cool is because there's a Gandalf in it. And a Frodo... and a Samwise Gamgee.


 I'm well aware of that, however characters are a lot harder to write when you don't really have an idea of the world they live in, I plan to write many short and not so short stories in this world and that requires the world to be a bit more developed than if I was writing just one story. For example, I plan to write a story about a local tribe of fungus people who want to have a particular village be part of a kingdom they feel 'deserves' it more than the other. I plan to write about a peasant and his encounter with one of the denizens of the Whispering Woods. I plan to write about a caravan guard and his travels from one part of the world to another. I plan to write about a Blind One trying to negotiate with an Unreal over ownership of a particular villager and more. Hence why I want to make the world before I start writing in it.


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## sashamerideth (Oct 31, 2011)

Whispering Woods, a She-Ra fan?  

Don't be surprised if your world has to change to make your characters likeable. Main problem with worldbuilding is you spend a lot of time on things that most readers don't really care that much about.


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## Dreamhand (Oct 31, 2011)

flashfire07 said:


> ...characters are a lot harder to write when you don't really have an idea of the world they live in



On the contrary, it sounds like you have a wealth of story ideas with only a sketched framework of a world.  When you get around to writing them, I'll bet you find (as Sasha suggestions) that you're world will change dramatically.  It's been my experience that characters drive the world and not the other way around.  Give it try... write just one of those stories and post it in the Showcase.  Focus on the story and the characters and let the setting do its job of providing a framework and supporting your characters' challenges.  Then let us know what you discovered.

What do you think?


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## Devor (Oct 31, 2011)

I want to make sure I understand.  I also want to answer the question because I assume this is where you need help, and that you may be doing just fine with the things you aren't asking about.

There's a Real World (the actual real world) with two halves of the Him being being kept hidden.  I think that's right.

There Over There, where Unreals are feeding off of local humans in an effort to become real, and groups of people defending the two halves of Him are starting to turn against each other.

Reading this, I find the Unreals and the Humans to be a more intriguing and defining aspect of the world and its characters, while the Blind Ones and the Iron Guard will be key to any overarching plot.  There's also a delicate framework which would be required if you ever want to break the barrier between Over There and the Real World, as doing so without laying the proper groundwork could become a jarring turnoff to your readers.

There's a lot which needs to be developed, and where you begin, as others have mentioned, should depend on which side of the story you want to tell.  It sounds like the area which needs the most attention, and will help you understand the conflicts and the characters which might come about, is going to be the nature and personality of the Unreals.  Are they evil and malevolent or struggling with their nature like addicts?  What kind of value do they place on humans, and what's keeping them from wiping out the human population to become real?  And what the heck actually happens when they do become real - does that mean they can enter the Real World?  You need to work on some of the details here, or else the creativity will fall into another world of slaves and self-corrupted masters.

Just typing ideas out, something which occurs to me as a good place to start a novel would be an Unreal who enters into the real world and needs to bring our humans back with him.  Maybe their population has grown too small, or maybe they've rallied and defended themselves and are unassailable, but for whatever reason this Unreal needs to bring our people back to help make some of them Real.  Maybe they even have a sudden urgency towards becoming real to help fight the ever-corrupting Iron Guard or Blind Ones, and they don't see humans as important.  And some ordinary person gets pulled into their mess, especially as they begin to seek the two halves of Him in the Real World.  Then again, as it was my first thought, it might be too obvious, and has certainly been done before.


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## flashfire07 (Nov 1, 2011)

> Don't be surprised if your world has to change to make your characters likeable. Main problem with worldbuilding is you spend a lot of time on things that most readers don't really care that much about.


 The thing is, I'm working on this world so that _I'll_ have an idea of where it all takes place, as I said before, a realistic, well thought out world is a lot more engaging than a thinly spread world that only exists to propel Magic Bob on his Super Dooper Quest.



> It's been my experience that characters drive the world and not the other way around. Give it try... write just one of those stories and post it in the Showcase


 Yes characters drive the plot and interactive aspects, but unless one writes about deities (which is pretty cool if done right but not my forte) the characters are usually part of a world that exists and breathes. I'm asking for help making the world that I'm setting my story in, when I just go for it and write it always fizzles away because _I don't have a setting that I feel is real._ this doesn't mean the reader will view it that way, but I don't know as I never finish my work. This setting is pretty much a 'prove I can do it' thing. If this fails I doubt I'll be writing fantasy or anything other than rather flaccid modern drama. But don't you worry, once this world is _done_ the rest... well.. you'll see a few pieces from me before the year is done.



> There's a Real World (the actual real world) with two halves of the Him being being kept hidden. I think that's right.


 Partly, there are four Halves, two on each world, when He was slain his body manifested on both worlds and his spirit was split between the two. But I didn't mention that before so you were right with what you had been given.



> There Over There, where Unreals are feeding off of local humans in an effort to become real, and groups of people defending the two halves of Him are starting to turn against each other


The Iron Guard and the Blind Ones don't protect the two halves so much as hide them and stop the rest of the world finding them, well at least Over There. The Iorn Gaurd are starting to fear the Blind Ones because their first reaction on seeing the Legion of Rust was disinterest and dismissal. They aren't worried, and the Iron Guard see this as an admission that the Blind Ones are working with the Legion, the real trouble is that the two organisations are falling apart without the guidance of their two leaders who mysteriously vanished (sorry, every time someone asks a question I add more to it, I apologize if this is just causing further confusion) before the legion of Rust appeared. These factions are all at each others throat and the humans under their protection are becoming increasingly worried about a war between the two groups, or worse, a war within the groups. This has led more humans to seek out alternative paths to power, this in turn leads to even more fear and paranoia among the Iron Guard and Blind ones. 



> Reading this, I find the Unreals and the Humans to be a more intriguing and defining aspect of the world and its characters, while the Blind Ones and the Iron Guard will be key to any overarching plot.


 THat's the general plan, I'll be writing about the humans and keeping the Iron Guard and Blind Ones as more.. alien. They aren't human, the Blind Ones are human-like but have chess pieces growing out of their eyes. Iron Guard are just flesh and armour, they have a skeletal structure designed to protect their internal organs from damage and many organs are redundant so they can take a beating. Their iron grows like a shell and is shed like an insect skeleton when they wish to change their role in battle. Before they do so they form a cocoon of flesh and iron in which their body changes and a new set of armour is grown to suit the new role they want to take. Course, I might get rid of that last bit as I'm not sure about it.



> the nature and personality of the Unreals. Are they evil and malevolent or struggling with their nature like addicts?


 Well, Unreals are the creatures created when He died. Some of them are evil and love to torture and kill, others are peaceful and want to be left alone. Some, like the Wulfen (Centaurs with the body of wolves) have formed proper species and become Half-Reals (I'll think of a better term later) and in their case it depends on the individual. No-one trusts Unreals due to their origin and reputation.



> What kind of value do they place on humans, and what's keeping them from wiping out the human population to become real?


 A good musket round or crossbow bolt will harm or hinder most Unreals, and those that can't be shot or stabbed know the Blind Ones will zap them off into an eternal prison, or oblivion if they piss of someone who throws a chunk of Aether (the stuff between the worlds) at them. So, threat of death or imprisonment is stopping them exterminating the huamn race.



> And what the heck actually happens when they do become real - does that mean they can enter the Real World?


 Well yes, they become human-like but retain their powers. This is how the Blind Ones were created, they sprouted from the blood spilt when the White King drove a chess piece through His eye.




> You need to work on some of the details here, or else the creativity will fall into another world of slaves and self-corrupted masters.


 Exactly why I'm building the world before I get started on a story.


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## Devor (Nov 1, 2011)

flashfire07 said:


> Well, Unreals are the creatures created when He died. Some of them are evil and love to torture and kill, others are peaceful and want to be left alone. Some, like the Wulfen (Centaurs with the body of wolves) have formed proper species and become Half-Reals (I'll think of a better term later) and in their case it depends on the individual. No-one trusts Unreals due to their origin and reputation.



Great.  The best way for me to help is either to ask more generally annoying questions which force you to think about your ideas and flush them out yourself, or else to see some specifics about the factions and personalities of the Unreal and the Humans and how they get along.  With that information I could try and give real tips on how they might interact.  But I can understand if you don't want to offer that information here.

I'm going to ignore, for the moment, the Blind Ones and the Iron Guard and the four halves of Him.  They are fairly obscure to the world and its characters, and their attitudes are going to change the most depending on the needs of your story and its characters.  Obviously if there's a faction which works with the Iron Guard directly, or if it plays a more direct role on the characters, it should come up in regards to the needs of the story.  But there's only so much that you can focus on at once.

A couple of key questions, though.

1)  How big are the populations of Humans and Unreals in comparison to each other?  I don't need to know how many hundreds of thousands, just their relative ratio of 3:1 or 10:1 or so on.

2)  Do you ever plan on breaking the barrier into the Real World?  Stories which do so tend to start in the real world, and there's good reason for that.  If you want to incorporate the Real World, it would be something you need to focus on immediately.

3)  How developed is the technology and magic?  Leave aside elements which might be caused by the increasing influence the "Him" might be having, and talk about what the humans and Unreals (and there were faeries?) might be capable of.

That's all.


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## flashfire07 (Nov 2, 2011)

> Great. The best way for me to help is either to ask more generally annoying questions which force you to think about your ideas and flush them out yourself, or else to see some specifics about the factions and personalities of the Unreal and the Humans and how they get along. With that information I could try and give real tips on how they might interact. But I can understand if you don't want to offer that information here.


 By all means ask, if anyone steals it I'll just point the lawyers here 



> 1) How big are the populations of Humans and Unreals in comparison to each other? I don't need to know how many hundreds of thousands, just their relative ratio of 3:1 or 10:1 or so on.


 well, Unreals are unique entities most of the time. Some of them form species like the aforementioned Wulfen, but even then their numbers are comparably few in relation to the humans. It's more along the lines 100 humans to 1 Unreal. They're more like the monster in the woods rather than the oncoming horde in most cases.



> Do you ever plan on breaking the barrier into the Real World? Stories which do so tend to start in the real world, and there's good reason for that. If you want to incorporate the Real World, it would be something you need to focus on immediately.


 Honestly? No. I don't plan to break the barrier at this point because I honestly don't see a need for it and there would be very little use in doing so unless I run some sort of 'Return of Him' arc, which is a possibility but not what I'm working on at this point.



> How developed is the technology and magic? Leave aside elements which might be caused by the increasing influence the "Him" might be having, and talk about what the humans and Unreals (and there were faeries?) might be capable of.


 Technology varies, the humans are mostly at the level of swords and muskets, I still need to develop the specifics further and that will require research into the matter.


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