# How do traditional publishers market new books?



## Claire (Jun 8, 2014)

I've been doing a lot of research and reading lately on the various avenues of publication - Big 5, small presses, "indie" publishing, and so forth. When it comes to marketing your book, I seem to be hearing two differing stories:

1. Some say something to the effect of, "Don't self publish because you need the publisher to market your book. It is too hard to market your book yourself and you won't get any readers."

2. But then I hear, "Traditional publishers don't do anything to market your book, so if you get a publishing contract, expect to do your own promotions."

(I'm not quoting anyone specifically - just the general sense I get from the reading I have done).

I'm wondering where the truth actually lies, so my question is this: what do trade publishers ACTUALLY do to market a new author's book (both Big 5 publishers and smaller presses)? What do they expect the author to do to market their own book? 

I'm just trying to get a better idea of how this portion of the business actually works. 

Thanks so much!


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## Mythopoet (Jun 9, 2014)

The truth is that you can't have any idea when signing a contract with a traditional publisher what they will do to market your book or whether they will market it at all. 

Trad Pubs do market... some books. Usually only the books of authors who are already bestsellers or books of authors that they have a strong feeling will go on to become bestsellers. Most new authors and midlist authors don't get any marketing to speak of except instructions from their publisher to do all the sorts of things you're likely to do as a self publisher. But there's no way to know ahead of time what they will do. They will usually promise marketing, but once the book is in production it's a matter of whether they think it's a good investment at the time. 

One thing does give a decent indication of whether they think your book is worth marketing. The advance. High advances (6 figures) will get marketing. Low advances (4-5 figures) probably won't or will only get a very small amount of marketing. But even the advance isn't a sure sign because their view of your book could very easily change during the 12 to 18 months between contract signing and actual publication.

As far as the actual techniques they use to market. There are ads in trade magazines. Reviews in trade publications. Book tours. Getting your book onto the front tables of brick and mortar stores. Etc.


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## stephenspower (Jun 9, 2014)

I agree with Myhopoet on all but the last graph:



> As far as the actual techniques they use to market. There are ads in trade magazines. Reviews in trade publications. Book tours. Getting your book onto the front tables of brick and mortar stores. Etc.



Ads are rarely run in trade magazines or newspapers because the ROI is to low. If you're going to advertisie, it's better to do so in a more targeted way that will generate repeat impressions. For instance, for my novel I'd rather have an ad run for two weeks on Daily Science Fiction with its 15K unique viewers/month, many of whom may go everyday to the site, than have one $40K ad in the NY Times for the millions who'll skim past it and never remember it. Even those, like me, who don't look at ads would have to see it on a venue like DSF.  

Book tours are useless because the cost of getting an author to a store is rarely made back in sales at the event or afterwards unless the author is themselves an event (for instance, Malcolm Gladwell, whose Tipping Point was not a success out the gate and only becames so after the publisher sent him on lecture tour). Local signings are definitely worth doing, though, because they build up good will with the stores most likely to handsell you, that is, the local author. And they're fun. Your neighbors will come and celebrate you.

Placement at B&N and other chain stores costs a fortune--I believe half of B&N's profits, in fact, come not from book sales, but from co-op--and publishers can't just buy their way in. They have to be chosen by the store to have the right to buy their way in.  I've long doubted the efficacy of front table placement. Again, for my novel I'd rather be on the less expensive SF/F table by the section where the committed reader of the genre has gone to shop than someplace more expensive for the general reader to ignore, freeing up some marketing money to be used elsewhere. I'd also like to be on that table the day a huge author such as GRRM or Rothfuss releases a book. They'll bring people into stores, and a rising tide lifts all boats.

Amazon placement is very good, and that's why they're fighting with Hachette, in part: over the cost of it.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 9, 2014)

stephenspower said:


> I agree with Myhopoet on all but the last graph:



I'm not sure exactly what you're disagreeing with me about. Are you saying that large traditional publishers don't do those things I listed or are you merely saying that they aren't very affective for the average book? 

Because I'm not making any claims about the effectiveness of traditional publisher marketing. But the things I listed are the things that traditionally the publishers do in fact do. Whether or not it makes any difference is a whole different subject. 

Furthermore, the negotiations between Amazon and Hachette are confidential and so no one knows the details of what they are arguing about. We can only speculate. But there are far better speculations than the one you've given.


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## Devor (Jun 9, 2014)

Traditional publishers do three things to market your book:

 - They send it to their list of book reviewers and ask them to review it.
 - They list it in their catalogs.
 - Their sales reps spend about 30 seconds pitching it to the buying agent at each book store.

It's not a lot, but it can be effective for many of their books because of their relationships within the industry.  And it's a big challenge to try and replicate it on your own.


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## stephenspower (Jun 9, 2014)

Mythopoet, I dropped my lede. I should have said ads and tours aren't done much any more because they aren't worth it, which most books don't get placement.

Devor, re the 30 seconds, you're right. It's only 30 seconds, but it's backed up by years of experience. Publishers will do more for a book, depending on a book, but those are the basics.


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## Devor (Jun 9, 2014)

stephenspower said:


> Devor, re the 30 seconds, you're right. It's only 30 seconds, but it's backed up by years of experience. Publishers will do more for a book, depending on a book, but those are the basics.



By all means, those 30 seconds can end up selling thousands of books.

What's really notable, though, is how little they do to push one book over another or to help any particular book stand out.  I don't even say that to fault them.  But even if you're being traditionally published, you still need to find ways to market your work yourself.


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## stephenspower (Jun 9, 2014)

The books with the most promise do get more attention, both in money and time, but, yes, most don't much more than others. Authors have to do a lot; then again, that's only because they didn't do a lot twenty years ago, not that publishers were doing it for them.  And both publisher and author need to do it sooner. Orders are now based on pre-orders, so marketing has to be too.


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## Claire (Jun 9, 2014)

Thank you! This helps clarify. I have to say, it is such an interesting time to be a writer. Much to think on!


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## MichaelSullivan (Jun 15, 2014)

When it comes to traditional and marketing there a few things to keep in mind.

1. Historically publishers don't market to readers...their "customer" is big industry buyers (bookstores, libraries, airports / big retail markets).  I keep hoping this will change...both for my sake and theirs. This is changing somewhat, my own publisher has used ads at goodreads for my books, for instance.  But there is still a long, long way to go.  

2. If you have a standard advance ($5,000 - $10,000 per book) the publisher won't do much to market you.  Basically your books will show up in their seasonal catalog (sent to buyers for pre-ordering), you might get some ARC copies sent to bloggers, and a book announcment on their site,  but that's about it.

3. If you have a six-figure advance, then they will do some maketing...they'll pay co-op fees to get premium placement in the bookstores, they will send out a lot of ARC's.  Will give away some free books at a big trade show like BEA.  And have a "marketing plan" for roll out.

4. When you do have marketing support, it is short lived. You have to remember that each month brings a whole new crop of books that need to be promoted so you'll get 1 - 2 months of marketing then they are on to the next month's books.  From time to time an opportunity might arise for backlist works (like a kindle daily deal spot opening up) and if your books have sold well they may put it up for that.  Or they might do a discount here and there, but for the most part, 99% of the promotion when it is done is centered around the release.

5. When traditionally published you get a "boost" simply because a publisher's logo is on your spine. There are some readers that will routinely look at new books coming out from a favorite publisher (Tor, Baen, Angry Robot, Orbit) to see if any of their upcoming titles interest them. So you get some additional exposure just through that.

Here's my take on marketing...you, and only you, are 100% invested in YOUR book's success. So, I don't care if you go self or traditional, you need to work to make your book a success and treat any marketing your publisher does as "icing." The cake is your responsibility.


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## stephenspower (Jun 15, 2014)

I agree with everything Michael says. I would only add, re #4, that the publicity window is 6 weeks. And after 3 months the chains start returning books.


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## MichaelSullivan (Jun 15, 2014)

stephenspower said:


> Ads are rarely run in trade magazines or newspapers because the ROI is to low. If you're going to advertisie, it's better to do so in a more targeted way that will generate repeat impressions. For instance, for my novel I'd rather have an ad run for two weeks on Daily Science Fiction with its 15K unique viewers/month, many of whom may go everyday to the site, than have one $40K ad in the NY Times for the millions who'll skim past it and never remember it. Even those, like me, who don't look at ads would have to see it on a venue like DSF.



I agree with this, and usually traditional publishers don't run ads (although my publisher had an ad for my books in Locus Magazine).  What I do see them doing (for some books...including my own), is goodreads and facebook ads.



stephenspower said:


> Book tours are useless because the cost of getting an author to a store is rarely made back in sales at the event or afterwards unless the author is themselves an event (for instance, Malcolm Gladwell, whose Tipping Point was not a success out the gate and only becames so after the publisher sent him on lecture tour). Local signings are definitely worth doing, though, because they build up good will with the stores most likely to handsell you, that is, the local author. And they're fun. Your neighbors will come and celebrate you.



Again agree, if you are a bestseller - your publisher is going to put you on tour. I've sold more than 500,000 books (although granted some of those are self-published) and I'm not big enough to warrant a tour (even a small one).  



stephenspower said:


> Placement at B&N and other chain stores costs a fortune--I believe half of B&N's profits, in fact, come not from book sales, but from co-op--and publishers can't just buy their way in.



Yes, it is expensive, but it is probably the biggest way in which publishers spend their marketing dollars. All of my books from Orbit have had co-op dollars associated with it, and I've even been in some stand-up floor displays at Christmas.



stephenspower said:


> Amazon placement is very good, and that's why they're fighting with Hachette, in part: over the cost of it.



Actually, no one knows the actual items they are fighting over.  Some think it is for better co-op, others think it is over agency-model verses wholesale model, others think it is over the amount of margins. It may be all of the above.  Most of the time Amazon placement is driven by sales.  They may do more co-op type advertising in the future, but historically it has been the readers through their purchases that dictate a lot of the search results and placements on "most popular" "top rated" and "bestselling lists.


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## MichaelSullivan (Jun 15, 2014)

Devor said:


> What's really notable, though, is how little they do to push one book over another or to help any particular book stand out.  I don't even say that to fault them.  But even if you're being traditionally published, you still need to find ways to market your work yourself.



Actually the buyers DO push one book over another...and it is usually dictated by pre-sale numbers.  It is a self-fulling system when book A is getting a lot of pre-orders, the corporate buyers are called and they say, "Hey book A is hot, you should buy more and plan for a big roll out." Which drives more pre-orders and so on.  Usually publishers will have a few "premium" books that they are telling their sales force to push.  A good way to know is to look at the exposure in the catalog.  In the season I was released they used the cover of 2312 for the cover of the catalog - it had a double spread - this was the title the publisher was telling the bookstores to stock up on.


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## MichaelSullivan (Jun 15, 2014)

stephenspower said:


> I agree with everything Michael says. I would only add, re #4, that the publicity window is 6 weeks. And after 3 months the chains start returning books.



That's why I chose 1 - 2 months (4 - 8 weeks).  Orbit generally starts my marketing 2 months a head with a lot of it focused on 4 weeks out.


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## Devor (Jun 17, 2014)

MichaelSullivan said:


> Actually the buyers DO push one book over another...and it is usually dictated by pre-sale numbers.  It is a self-fulling system when book A is getting a lot of pre-orders, the corporate buyers are called and they say, "Hey book A is hot, you should buy more and plan for a big roll out." Which drives more pre-orders and so on.  Usually publishers will have a few "premium" books that they are telling their sales force to push.  A good way to know is to look at the exposure in the catalog.  In the season I was released they used the cover of 2312 for the cover of the catalog - it had a double spread - this was the title the publisher was telling the bookstores to stock up on.



Thank you for correcting me.

One of the things I've seen a lot when people talk about trad vs. self-publishing is that the publishers will "abandon" you.  I mean, of course there's a tight sales cycle, and harsh competition.  But in your experience, do you feel there are a sizable number of authors who are just "thrown under the bus" by a big publisher?


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## Claire (Jun 17, 2014)

Devor said:


> One of the things I've seen a lot when people talk about trad vs. self-publishing is that the publishers will "abandon" you.  I mean, of course there's a tight sales cycle, and harsh competition.  But in your experience, do you feel there are a sizable number of authors who are just "thrown under the bus" by a big publisher?



This is a great question. I'm hoping to drill down to find the truth in all the chatter when it comes to trad publishing and self-publishing. Or at least get a feel for the reality of the business.

Everyone's input is great - thank you!!


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## Mythopoet (Jun 17, 2014)

Devor said:


> One of the things I've seen a lot when people talk about trad vs. self-publishing is that the publishers will "abandon" you.  I mean, of course there's a tight sales cycle, and harsh competition.  But in your experience, do you feel there are a sizable number of authors who are just "thrown under the bus" by a big publisher?



This is the sort of thing that people in the publishing industry won't admit to, but with the new freedom that authors have because of self-publishing, the stories are starting to come out. I've read so many of them on a variety of sites that it would take way to long for me to track them all down to reference them here. But I've found a few sources that might shed some light on the question.

There was a major example a few years ago of a publisher of textbooks that had been trying to get into the trade book market, but had been unsuccessful so they decided to drop the trade book line, while books of contracted authors were still in production. But no one at the publisher even told the authors. Dr. Yvonne Thornton was one of the authors that had been promised much before signing, but whose book was barely published and abandoned by the publisher. 

Kristine Kathryn Rusch, a long time career author with experience as an editor and owner of a small press, commented on the article above by saying, "I suggest you read about this case if you ever think of going with a traditional publisher, because _these things happen all the time_." (Emphasis hers.) She went on in the same post to describe some of her own experiences with being "published dead".

See more at: The Business Rusch: Writers and Traditional Publishing Companies | Kristine Kathryn Rusch

In another post KKR talks about how Publishers view books and writers.

She also points out a post written by author Judith Tarr that talks about The League of Shattered Authors, authors whose books don't do well enough so their careers just disappear.

In another post Judith Tarr relates her own publishing experience.

As KKR said, these things are not uncommon. Especially among midlist writers, and the sobering truth is that large publishers have even less tolerance of the midlist now than before.


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## Mythopoet (Jun 17, 2014)

Donald Maass, superstar lieterary agent, wrote an article about how Publishers are "gratefully relieved of the money-losing burden of the mid-list" due to the self publishing boom and better still, he says, "because some authors are now—voluntarily!—willing to bear the expense and undertake the effort of building an audience by themselves, print publishers have the luxury of culling the prize cattle from the herd." This is how he describes the way Publishers look at writers, and he's on their team. 

Lagardere, the parent company of Hachette, recently gave an investor presentation that emphasized the difference a single bestselling author can make on their revenues and finding international bestsellers to publish. 

Back to the subject of marketing, here's a comment from a published author in response to the claim that “If you are offered anything in the 6-7 figure range, you should accept. The publisher will protect the investment and give you the exposure self-publishing cannot.” Patricia Sierra responded: "Nope. I did a six-figure deal and got zero promotion or any other benefit except their distribution channels. At one point I asked the head honcho why the publishing house wasn’t protecting its investment. Result? Crickets."

And here's a Kboards thread where self published author H.M. Ward explained how she turned down a 6 figure publishing deal because she asked for a marketing plan and they couldn't give her one.

If I spent time digging around, I could find so many stories told by so many authors about how their careers got screwed over by parts of the traditional publishing industry. But if you spend time reading the comments over at The Passive Voice Blog you'll see them for yourself. I highly recommend it. And while you're there check out this post where Indie Authors were invited to share their stories about achieving success and being able to Quit Their Day Jobs.


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## MichaelSullivan (Jun 17, 2014)

Devor said:


> Thank you for correcting me.
> 
> One of the things I've seen a lot when people talk about trad vs. self-publishing is that the publishers will "abandon" you.  I mean, of course there's a tight sales cycle, and harsh competition.  But in your experience, do you feel there are a sizable number of authors who are just "thrown under the bus" by a big publisher?



I wouldn't classify it as "abandonment" or being "thrown under the bus."  For standard advances ($5,000 - $10,000) you basically get little to no marketing support.  For larger advances (six-figures) you do get marketing but it will be focused near the release date and once that is gone, you get very little.  When you have a "next book" coming out, they'll give you some "lovin" again (again if your advance is large enough. You have to remember that each month they have more than just one book coming out, so once they do for you, they have to turn their attention to a different author's who release date has bubbled to the top.  

The hard truth is a "good solid book" may be ignored as they will put attention on "the big sellers" or "those that are greatly under performing.  For instance...there was a book at my publisher (not mine) that was released in hardcover and the initial sales weren't that good.  They had another hardcover coming out in a year and they really needed to build up an audience for that book - which they believed was good (and it is).  So they cut the ebook price of that title to $1.99 even though it was still "front list" and should have been selling at $12.99.  They did this for months and months and months because it drove a lot of ebook sales.  They sacrificed income on book #1 to build an audience for book #2.  When it came out, it did much better than it would have if they hadn't done that.  I think overall it was a smart move. 

Because the publisher's marketing department is overwhelmed, and because each month a whole new set of books is coming out, you, and only you, will care 100% for your book and that's why I say authors need to think about what their publishers do as gravy and count on just yourself to spread the word.


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## MichaelSullivan (Jun 17, 2014)

After reading Mytopoet's post I might have misunderstood "the abandonment" question - I was answering with regards to marketing.  There are times when you sign a contract and you can become "orphaned" - for instance you sign with one editor and they leave the company and a new one comes in that doesn't like your book as much as the original one.  In many respects your editor is your "internal advocate" that is a kind of project manager making sure your book gets attention from various departments.

Also, depending on what your contract says, a publisher may cancel books #2 and #3 of a series that doesn't sell well on book #1.  It depends on the contract language (my publisher can't do this to my books, but other contracts allow them to).  In some cases they cancel the book and demand the advance back, which is why you have to look at the contract in the light of "what if things go bad." 

Also you have to take into consideration about what happens when the author and the editor don't agree on changes.  In my contracts, the publisher can't make me change anything.  They can decide not to publish but in that case the rights revert.  It's a big deal to me that only I control the final content. So far this has never been a problem, but if it ever is in the future, I would rather have them give me the books back then to publish something I don't agree with.


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## Devor (Jun 17, 2014)

MichaelSullivan said:


> After reading Mytopoet's post I might have misunderstood "the abandonment" question - I was answering with regards to marketing.



It was deliberately ambiguous - thanks for both posts!


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## Mythopoet (Jun 18, 2014)

I'm a bit miffed that significant quotations in my post, which I went to some effort to find, were edited out by a moderator. 

I guess I'll just say, if you want to understand how the industry works, you should go to Kristine Kathryn Rusch's site and read all of her Publishing Business blog posts. All of them. She is one of the most experienced people on the writing side of the publishing industry, she understands business and she's not afraid to tell it like it is. It's the best free education on the industry you can get.


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## Devor (Jun 18, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> I'm a bit miffed that significant quotations in my post, which I went to some effort to find, were edited out by a moderator.



I'm not aware of who edited it, but we have a flat policy against extensive quotations because it can be seen as "duplicating" content from elsewhere on the web by search engines.  It's unfortunate, but enforcing the policies is the role that we play.

If it helps, I saw the quotes and appreciated how much they made the case that some authors can have their careers hurt by the big publishers.  Having your editor leave in particular seems like a bad crack to fall into.  Although I don't yet have a good impression of how common it is, based only anecdotes.

My impression has been, and _mostly_ remains, that people go into traditional publishing with unrealistic expectations about what they will do for you with the marketing.  But that it's a solid path to take if you go into it, like most things, with a clear understanding of what you're getting yourself into and an awareness of the potential pitfalls that may come.


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## MichaelSullivan (Jun 18, 2014)

Devor said:


> It was deliberately ambiguous - thanks for both posts!



You are very welcome.


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## MichaelSullivan (Jun 18, 2014)

Devor said:


> My impression has been, and _mostly_ remains, that people go into traditional publishing with unrealistic expectations about what they will do for you with the marketing.  But that it's a solid path to take if you go into it, like most things, with a clear understanding of what you're getting yourself into and an awareness of the potential pitfalls that may come.



I would agree with this...but it's not about marketing, it's about all kinds of things...such as size of advance, royalty rates, what rights you can keep and what you'll have to give up.  The list goes on and on. It is important for any author to educate themselves on the business and the practices of self, big-five, and small presses, so that they can make smart decisions and stay agile.


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## Claire (Jun 18, 2014)

MichaelSullivan said:


> It is important for any author to educate themselves on the business and the practices of self, big-five, and small presses, so that they can make smart decisions and stay agile.



Agreed! I'm on a quest to learn as much a I can so when my WIP is ready, I'll be able to make a well informed decision.

Mythopoet - thanks for the links and suggestions for further reading. I do have Kristine Kathryn Rusch's site bookmarked and have been going through her posts. Lots of great information! And I heard about Passive Voice a while ago as well, so I've been reading it regularly. 

Thanks again to everyone! It is so helpful to gain insight from those who have been there.

And MichaelSullivan - sorry if it is inappropriate to go all fan girl on you, but my husband and I are both big fans! He thought it was pretty amazing that you were answering my post . Thanks!


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## MichaelSullivan (Jun 19, 2014)

Claire said:


> And MichaelSullivan - sorry if it is inappropriate to go all fan girl on you, but my husband and I are both big fans! He thought it was pretty amazing that you were answering my post . Thanks!



Hey, glad you have enjoyed the books - please tell your husband I said hello and thanks as well.


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