# School Question



## Kaellpae (Aug 13, 2011)

I don't know exactly how to word this in Google to find an answer so I thought I'd ask M.S.

I want to go to college for History and Creative Writing. If I go to school (paid by the company I work for) I can't go for those majors though. If I were to go to college for something that my company would pay for, probably Engineering, would I be able to use credits for my core classes and any needed classes for the other two majors I want after I get B.A. in Engineering?

If I can't carry over credits of core classes that I've already done, then I would just go for History and C.W. 

Any light that you can shine on this topic would make me very grateful!


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## Angharad (Aug 13, 2011)

It probably varies somewhat depending on the college, but you can have more than one major, and the breadth requirements can count for both. One of my daughter's friends double majored in history and astrophysics.  It might take you a bit longer, but it can be done.  I'd say, if your company will pay for your schooling, it sounds like a good deal!  College is insanely expensive, and a lot of students graduate with huge loans to pay off.


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## Kaellpae (Aug 13, 2011)

They'll pay for my degree in Engineering, they can actually use that. If I was able to go back and not have to do the core classes again for two degrees that I was more interested in then that would be awesome. I personally didn't see the reason, other than money, that they would make you do core classes again. I'm just going to a state college, but it'll be worth the degree I would get from my company paying for school and then me able to do a degree or double major in something I was interested in even more.


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## Angharad (Aug 13, 2011)

You should talk to an adviser after you enroll and see what would be required for the second (creative writing) major. There would undoubtedly be some additional lower division requirements, but you might be able to squeeze them in along with your engineering requirements.  It would be a challenge, but worth it.

I would have loved to major in creative writing, but I majored in Biochemistry because I thought it would be more useful for finding a job.  It was, but writing is what I really love to do.


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## Chilari (Aug 14, 2011)

I don't know the situation in the US, but I believe in the UK that any student of a university can sit in on any lecture given on that university's campus, even if not enrolled on the relevant module or course. Obviously if the history or creative writing lectures clash with the engineering ones, which is entirely possible, you won't be able to do that. I guess it depends on whether the knowledge and learning is enough, or if you want the credits and ultimately the qualification for it too.


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## Kaellpae (Aug 14, 2011)

I believe you can do that. I want the knowledge, but I want the course work mostly. I would probably sit in on a few lectures just to see what it was like.


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## Fnord (Aug 14, 2011)

Depending on the structure of the program, a "double-major" can simply use up all the elective slots you would have to fill with *something* anyway.  If you're an engineering student, you're going to have to take some classes in the humanities and then take "electives" that are just classes outside of your major.  You can fill those with the second major and still get done in the same amount of time.  

What could be a problem is that a B.A. in history and a B.S. in engineering are likely going to require different core requirements.  For instance a lot of B.S. degrees require science and math classes as part of the "core" of classes outside of the major itself and B.A. degrees tend to lean heavier on humanities and languages.  That could be time-consuming and possibly be a problem with your job paying for it.  It's a lot easier to double major in something somewhat related, like engineering and mathematics or engineering and physics than it is engineering and history.  

Something to ask an adviser about for sure.


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## Kaellpae (Aug 14, 2011)

So then could I use the credits after getting my BS in Engineering to go back and double-major in Hist/Creative Writing?

If it would be either a waste of time and/or money I would prefer to go with the double major. Engineering interests me, and a career in it wouldn't be horrible, but History and Writing have always captivated me most. Maybe I will just go to one of the local colleges and ask an advisor.


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## Fnord (Aug 15, 2011)

Yeah, it really depends on how the school structures their base requirements for a B.A. and a B.S. and how much overlap is available.  When I was a history/english major, I had to take four semesters of a foreign language, and a stronger group of humanities classes outside of the major requirements (religion, philosophy, etc).  When I switched to economics, I suddenly needed a lot more math and science and a lot less humanities, no language requirements, etc.  So it will be important to find out if a double-major works as just taking 21 credits or so of another group of classes (in which case, you just use all your elective slots for the second major) or if it's truly double the workload (different core requirements, little overlap, etc).


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## Fnord (Aug 15, 2011)

Something else to point out: do you want the second degree for an actual degree, or are you more interested in just having a broader perspective in the subjects of history and writing?  Community/junior colleges often have lots of history and writing classes (since they tend to be structured around either building core classes for a four-year institution or developing skills outside of the four-year institution)--this makes it a lot cheaper for you to pursue what you're actually interested in and you might be able to pick up core classes for your bachelors there too if your destination school has a matriculation agreement with the community college.  Most junior colleges have a "pre-engineering" program, after all.  You could get your various math and science classes out of the way there AND take some interesting history and writing classes for a lot less money.

Food for thought.


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## Ravana (Aug 15, 2011)

Generally, core classes will apply to any major–that's why they're called "core" classes. As everyone else has said, though, you will need to check this with your specific institution. At any rate, no program is going to make you take the _same_ course a second time just because you weren't enrolled in their department the first time around… so if it's also a requirement of the second program, it'll count.

Fnord's point is also well taken–and deserves expansion. In all honesty, a second Bachelor's is a waste, unless for some reason you need it to get into a higher-level program. Which is rare: most Master's/PhD programs don't care all that much what your undergrad degree was in; they're far more interested in demonstrated ability. (In fact, there is a strong preference in many Humanities departments for students whose undergrad degree is _not_ the same as the grad program they're entering: many programs like the interdisciplinary effect from bringing in outside ideas. Though the difference is usually between two Humanities programs, not a Humanities and an Engineering one. Still… if you wanted to get into a History M.A. program, for instance, you could enroll as being interested in historical engineering–and change your focus later, if that's not what you actually want to do… "discover" a new interest, once you're in. Sometimes, you just gotta be sneaky like that: work the system.) Apart from that, a second Bachelor's will never do you any good, as far as having the degree itself is concerned. (In fact, the only thing a B.A. will do for you any more is get you hired directly as a shift manager at McDonald's, rather than having to start on the grill.) So if you're interested in having a degree you can _use_, you'll need to target a M.A. or M.F.A. 

That's the economic value of the degree, though. If for some odd reason you are actually interested in picking up the _knowledge_ presented in the classes–something that will place you in a rapidly-vanishing minority–then there's no special reason to try to fulfill all the requirements of additional degrees: just take the courses. If you want to take more after you've completed your degree, enroll as a continuing education student, and take them one at a time as you can afford them. (I would love to be able to do this: finances prohibit, sadly.) As far as the degree program goes, I would recommend: 
- (1) choose core course options in those fields; 
- (2) take all your elective options in those fields; 
- (3) take the highest-level courses you are eligible for to fill these slots–ideally, senior-level honors courses or even first-year grad courses, which usually allow undergrad enrollment as well… and which you can often talk your way into even if you're missing a prereq or two (I took several as an undergrad myself); 
- (4) take honors courses in general, at every level: not only are they more advantageous in terms of positioning yourself for later work, they actually have meaningful content, unlike the 300-plus-seat-lecture-hall cattle courses most freshmen and sophomores are subjected to; 
- (5) in most cases, this will require you to enroll in an honors program, which is often an independent department, rather than part of the department you're pursuing the degree in–and it is totally worth doing this, _even if you don't finish the honors requirements for your degree_: you'll be able to take the honors classes, and the program will generally see to it you can get into those upper-level classes you want, regardless of prereqs… or approve overloads so you can take an extra class outside your discipline, or get you into a class that is technically "full," etc.: they really look out for their own (and of course you could always complete the honors requirements, as well… which is one of the best things you can do for yourself if you're planning on going on to grad work: it shows better than anything else on your transcript that you're a "serious" student); and 
- (6) see if you can sneak in minors on the degree your company will pay for, by accumulating all but a couple of the courses you'd need for it through the foregoing processes. 
If you're left with only having to pay for one term to finish up the minor(s), after all your degree requirements are completed, delay your graduation and finish them up on your own money–and if that's all you still need, maybe your company will take sympathy on you and pay for that, too. Especially if you slip an extra engineering course into the schedule, and convince them that it's "value-added" for them to cover it. (One good strategy is to try to arrange your schedule so that you can't make full-time hours in a given term without taking something outside your field, even if you already have all your core/elective courses done: "Gosh, boss, I needed to find an extra three hours _somewhere_.…"  Though this can be tricky in something as carefully-arranged as most engineering programs will be.) This will get you the greatest possible advantage from what is getting paid for, and set you up the best for upper-level work if you decide you want to go that route.

Slightly off-topic, but something that should figure into your planning, if it's economic value you're after: take more than the minimum requirements in a foreign language. Having even marginal competency in a second language increases starting salaries by 10% or more; _fluency_ in a second language is far and away the most sought-after "extra" skill, regardless of field, and can often allow you to write your own ticket. (Good written communication skills is second: presumably, you'll be able to demonstrate that one easily enough.  )


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## Ravana (Aug 15, 2011)

P.S. Fnord's correct about community colleges as well. Believe it or not, the classes there are generally _better_ than the equivalents at large universities. Class sizes are smaller: you'll never be stuck in a lecture hall, so you can actually interact with your teacher. And except for some freshmen who are taking courses on the cheap–or, more often, because they got closed out of one at their university–the students are much more serious: they know why they're there, have actual _reasons_ to be there. They aren't there because they've been told that college is what you have to do after high school and are treating it as if it were 13th grade; they're there because they already have specific goals, which they can fulfill with the degree they'll get from the CC, and are serious about achieving them. From the point of view of someone who's taught at both a CC and a major university, I find the CC much more rewarding to teach at. I'd hate to have to teach the same courses at the university.


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## Fnord (Aug 16, 2011)

Well put, Ravana, all of that.


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## Kaellpae (Aug 16, 2011)

Thanks to both of you!

I don't think I would go for a second degree if that's how it is. I could do more with an Engineering degree, but History and Writing are what I'm interested in most. If a second degree wouldn't matter then I would definitely want to go for something I find more important and interesting, rather than what my company would pay for.


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## Ravana (Aug 16, 2011)

A second _Bachelor's_ wouldn't matter: if you were looking to be employed in the field, you'd need a higher degree. If all you want is to learn (what a novel concept!), squeeze as many classes in as you can while they're getting paid for, then go continuing ed afterward. 

One other thing that Fnord mentioned, and I meant to touch on: it is often possible to get permission to sit in on higher-level classes, without actually taking them. Depending on the institution and professor, you may be required to enroll as an Audit student… which means they get the head count (to help justify their financial existence), and it might show on your transcript–you earn no credits for this, it's just nice to show you were exposed to the materials. In most cases, you won't be required to do anything more than attend, though again this will vary by institution and by professor; even if you are expected to do something to get the "audit" designation, it'll be incredibly minimal. (You aren't receiving real credits for it; why should you have to do real work?  )

Or you might simply be allowed to show up and sit in. Which is a great way to soak up a little extra info in the fields you really want to study. Often, all it requires is asking politely. Worst that can happen is they'll say "No," right? 

Best approach is to start meeting people in the target departments, make friends, attend all their "social" functions, etc.–working the system, again. Look especially for one-day "seminars"–usually a couple hours long on a Friday afternoon or such–which are open to all who want to attend. Most university departments will have several of these each term to give their grad students opportunities to present their ongoing work, along with a couple of visiting professors from other universities. You'll be astonished at the depth of detail working at that level involves… even if most of it goes over your head, you'll pick up some stuff. More importantly, if you want to convince people in those departments you're serious about their field, nothing will do it better than attending these. Especially if they see you taking notes while you're there.  

If you find the department hosting an actual full-blown conference–generally spread out over a couple of days–it is _absolutely_ worth paying your own money to get in: there will be numerous professors from institutions all over the country (or world!), speaking on all sorts of different topics–all of which will be on the cutting edge of the field: that's the point of the conferences. In fact, look for these at _every_ institution within easy travel range, whether it's one you're enrolled in or not. (For that matter, you can do the same for the single talks: they're open to everyone, not just people from that institution.) Show up for these, and you'll _really_ be taken seriously next time you want to ask permission to sit a class. Plus, you'll learn a few things… which, after all, is the goal, eh? So be sure to monitor the websites for all the departments in all the universities and colleges in your area. Never know what might pop up.


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## Kaellpae (Aug 17, 2011)

I want the education in Engineering for a possible better job, not for the knowledge really. Engineering is interesting, but not my favorite thing to study. I want the education in History just for knowledge. I don't know exactly what sort of careers you can get with a History degree(Bachelor's and beyond), but I might end up having to play the system and just get what knowledge I can from group lectures or something.


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## Fnord (Aug 17, 2011)

Don't take this the wrong way or anything, but I approached history in the way that the lead character in "Good Will Hunting" snarkily put it in the pub scene: if I'm interested in something non-technical, I just use my library card and can learn just as much as sitting in on a class.  It's certainly cheaper. 

Ravana is right, you're going to need an advanced degree to really make use of a history or writing degree.  I would weigh that versus the cost involved (both in money and time and what you are sacrificing in both instances).  Engineering may be less interesting, but it is certainly more useful in the job market. After all, if you are going to write you don't necessarily need a *degree* to do that.

Food for thought.


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