# Magic AND Technology



## ChrisNGibbs (Sep 18, 2014)

I've been building a world where magic and technology does exist together in a modern-day setting. I want both sides to be evenly matched with one another. I want to make it possible for this happen.


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## Jabrosky (Sep 18, 2014)

It may depend on your magic system, but I would think having magic around would make a lot of modern technology redundant. For example, instead of airplanes or flamethrowers, you would have magic portals or mages throwing fireballs. Isn't there an old spec-fiction adage that sufficiently advanced technology is practically indistinguishable from magic?


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## WooHooMan (Sep 18, 2014)

Jabrosky said:


> It may depend on your magic system



This is so true that this thread could just end right here.

The way I look at it is that magic is a process while technology is a tool.  I think the two can work together just fine but both need to be defined.

"





Jabrosky said:


> For example, instead of airplanes...you would have magic portals



In this example, I would say the portal itself would be technology that is powered with magic.  In the same way that a light bulb is technology powered with electricity.
Straight teleportation, on the other hand, is probably all magic with no tech.

I think the idea that the two are incompatible  or "substitutable" comes from the fallacy that technology is incompatible with nature (with magic seen as a natural phenomenon).  You'd have to get passed the notion and see magic as a natural resource that can be utilized with technology.


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## Bortasz (Sep 18, 2014)

And what are you problems? 
were you see a problems? 

Now We know that you want this to be true. Tell us more so we can help you more.


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## wordwalker (Sep 18, 2014)

To put it another way: what in your world has made the forces "evenly matched" rather than completely integrated with each other?

In many modern stories, magic is hidden from the public (or was until recently, eg _True Blood_). If one side hasn't been able to get at magic and the other has, then it's a matter of giving the nonmagic side enough money and influence to balance the other's magic with armed mercenaries, spy drones, and other fun things. The more power one side has with magic, the more the other needs.

(And it probably can't be magic "vs" tech, at least not forever. Even if one side hates the other's power source, sooner or later they'll start seeing ways to use pieces of it, if only by working with the right people.)


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## Bortasz (Sep 18, 2014)

Also look add this world:
Eberron
https://www.google.pl/search?q=Eber...vmyQPZjYHoCg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=899

Were low level magic is common,


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## Feo Takahari (Sep 18, 2014)

I'll start off with the question of what the conflict is. Springhole is incredibly condescending as usual, but they make some good points: 



> If you actually know what science is and how it works, the concept of "harmonizing science and magic" sounds about as exciting and revolutionary as harmonizing spiral binders and poetry . . . _f magic existed as depicted in most fantasy stories, there would be a branch of science dedicated to figuring out just how and why it worked. Scientists would not deny its existance [sic] simply because they had no explanation for it yet - they would spend years, even lifetimes, working on figuring it out._


_

With that said, the most sophisticated take on this I've seen is The Longest Journey, which doesn't even try to give science the raw power of magic. Science's advantage is that it's science--A is A, repeatable results, if you don't understand it then study it until you do. Magic isn't something you use so much as something you set loose, and you can't rely on it to consistently do what you want. Even though magic can do things science can't, science can mass-produce and engineer in complex ways that would be likely to blow up in your face if you tried them magically.

(It's slightly off-topic, but Harry Potter and the Natural 20 follows a similar idea to its natural conclusion. It depicts two worlds, one in which magic is well-known but most folks can't use it, and one in which magic is secret and most folks get by without it. In the former, magic-users are capable of amazing feats, but their powers are so closely guarded that non-magical folks are heavily dependent on them and have very little social power. In the latter, non-magical engineering has advanced to a point that projects even magic-users would consider ludicrously impractical are now common. The former has more folks who live in incredible luxury, but the latter has fewer folks who live in hovels.)_


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## Addison (Sep 19, 2014)

I had the same problem with my fantasy, a YA Contemporary fantasy. So in that world I wrote a bunch of laws, as it it full of magical races and magical people alongside normal people. The laws lists everything that magical races, and those with magic abilities, are allowed to use their magic for. Such as any Caster (those humans with magic abilities) who are great at illiusion magics may not use their magic to produce an entire illusion production in a theater. That takes away the jobs of actors, costume desigerns, prop makers etc. Those adept at communication spells can only use them for specific reasons, they're in a place with zero cell reception, life or death situation or it's a legitimate business. Such laws allow the evolution of modern technology and civilization. 

So set up barriers. If cell phones or wi-fi are important to your story then set up the reasons why its tech and not magic. Or even vice-versa.


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## Hainted (Sep 21, 2014)

I would look at Discworld for examples of magical technology, as well as the rpg Shadowrun for another take on high-tech and fantasy combined.

There's all sorts of ways magic could work in a modern world. My own WIP features Golems that work assembly lines, act as entertainment at theme parks and populate most of the sex worker industry. The technology started gaining ground because it could do some things as well as magic for less cost, and combined with certain governments,religions, and special interest groups who don't like magic offered a better alternative.


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## Fyle (Oct 1, 2014)

Thats Final Fantasy 3 (or FF6 in Japan), the one with Terra, Locke and the Mogs！

Magic and technology working together and at war. 

Maybe give it a play through？The opera house song is impressive too！


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## Mythopoet (Oct 1, 2014)

Most magic systems people write about these days are essentially the exact same thing as technology anyway. The only difference is that you have to be "special" to use magic most of the time. It's like a geek's wet dream.


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## Jabrosky (Oct 1, 2014)

Mythopoet said:


> Most magic systems people write about these days are essentially the exact same thing as technology anyway. The only difference is that you have to be "special" to use magic most of the time. It's like a geek's wet dream.


I do think magic sometimes gets treated as a substitute for modern technology in pre-industrial settings. In which case, you can fairly ask why the author didn't simply choose a modern or futuristic level of technology for their world.

Actually, a constructed fantasy world with advanced technology would be interesting to see. The world itself would be wholly fictitious, so it wouldn't be like conventional science fiction which assumes the human characters all descend from Earthlings in the future, but it wouldn't be like orthodox pre-industrial fantasy either. Why don't we see more of that?


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## Mythopoet (Oct 1, 2014)

Jabrosky said:


> Actually, a constructed fantasy world with advanced technology would be interesting to see. The world itself would be wholly fictitious, so it wouldn't be like conventional science fiction which assumes the human characters all descend from Earthlings in the future, but it wouldn't be like orthodox pre-industrial fantasy either. Why don't we see more of that?



Because publishers wouldn't know how to market it.


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## Sheilawisz (Oct 1, 2014)

The answer to the question of how to combine Magic and Technology, and write a story featuring this concept, depends on how you define each of them within your Fantasy universe.

In many stories Magic is described as a force that is part of nature, just like electricity, magnetism and light. The difference is that Magic is less understood and as a result it gets viewed as a mysterious force, but that's all... This means that Magic would be the same as Technology, because they both work by following the rules of the universe.

My personal definition of Magic goes against this: I describe Magic as the exact opposite of Nature, a force that works by destroying the rules of the universe instead of following them.

In order to combine Magic and Technology in a story and obtain an interesting result, first you need to have a clear definition of each of them.


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## psychotick (Oct 1, 2014)

Hi,

I have no problems with the concept - and one of my favourite RPG's of all time was Arcanum. Only difference is that magic and science interferred with one another so mages weren't allowed to ride trains and the scientists had to stay away from magical places.

How to make them even? Well the simplest answer is to use exclusivity. If only a few people can use magic, then most people can't. And most people wouldn't want to go to their local mage every time they need something done for them that they can do at home with a gadget.

Cheers, Greg.


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## Sheilawisz (Oct 1, 2014)

I wanted to add that there is a very famous example of a story that combines Magic and Technology, and it was done very well.

Some people think that the _Star Wars_ universe is Science Fiction, but in fact it's Fantasy. Not the type of Fantasy about castles and dragons, yeah, but Fantasy after all. The setting combines spaceships, energy weapons and unrealistic technology with the mysterious power known as the Force, and the Jedi Knights use both.

The Jedi are the Wizards of the Star Wars universe.

Star Wars alone is proof that you can combine both things and obtain great results, so if that's what you want, then go for it! =)


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## wordwalker (Oct 1, 2014)

One thing about tech or tech-like magic is that most fantasy worlds seem to have some of it in at least a few discreet places, as compared to the Dark Age or Renaissance setting they claim to be. If they didn't, they'd have depths of harshness that the average fantasy author and reader don't want to fully relate to-- infant mortality, minimal light sources indoors, and so on. Many writers use these grim facts, but most don't take them to the full medieval level, and they use them selectively. (Of course some do go full Dark Age too.) If a world claims to be realistic, but isn't dizzyingly different in those ways from the nice clean 21st century, it's got to be magic or tech buffering it.

Of course you can always say that a Peaceful Kingdom has some understanding of sanitation and a lord who insisted the towns have room to live in. A few things like that could make it a truly nice place to live outside of the religious feuds or demon raids or other plot points. But advantages like that _are_ technology, unless they're magic.

So the more you want a sword-based fantasy that keeps those basics approachable for sheltered modern readers, if you still want the kind of worldbuilding cause and effect that lets you dig into the grittiness you _do_ want? The more you can drop references to "earth-magic healing herbs," "super-bright lamp oil," and other mass advantages to cover the rest.


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## BronzeOracle (Oct 27, 2014)

I've seen a number of stories where its magic versus technology and in each case I think they're a retelling of the clash of civilisations with colonisation and the loss of the those cultures to Europeans - I'm thinking the Ralph Bakshi movie 'Wizards' and The Darksword trilogy.  In both cases technology stomps magic and the story is one of loss of the old ways of magic that go with the doomed civilisation.

But I agree if you want to even the odds its just a matter of deciding how powerful your magic is, it is based on a time before the Age of Enlightenment when the forces of nature were bewildering, frightening and mysterious, so you can make the magic draw on a realm/dimensions of incredible power if you want to.  Its more what story do you want to tell and why is the magic important to it - is it about two sides engaged in conflict, so the magic is weaponry?  Then its just a decision of which side needs to be more powerful and which will be the underdog.  But then you can always have magic interwoven with technology, complimenting it rather than being an alternative weapon/power source etc.  Depending on where you take it magic can just be a form of constructive/destructive energy or it can be much more and can do things that technology can't, like see into the future or people's minds, control people's actions, bring someone back from the dead or teleport across space and time.  I think start with the story, see what you need the magic to do and then work from there.


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