# Honest opinions on my price?



## Zero Angel

Hello all,

I have been having doubts about the price of my novel. 

My doubts are not that my book is not worth US$6.99, but rather that self-published eBooks are rarely that high. 

When pricing my novel, I assumed it was worth as much as the cheapest paper books available: the mass-market paperback. These 50K-100K print run books clock in at between $6.99 and $8.99. If there is a book that I am interested in that is mass-market, I will probably buy it as readily as I would check it out at the library. 

So that is why I priced my eBook at $6.99. 

I've seen everything from people saying that self-published eBooks should be free, to no more than $2.99, to no more than $4.99, to no more than etc.

What are your thoughts?

If it influences your decision, my pricing plan for all my books is the following:

New Novels: $6.99
Old Novels: $4.99
Novellas: $2.99
Short stories: $0.99

Definition of "old" would be when the sequel comes out lower the price point of the earlier in the series to $4.99.


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## Steerpike

I don't know, Zero Angel. It strikes me as too high, but I've never tried that price point (it wouldn't work on my children's book anyway). The good thing is, you can change price easily. You could start it at that and if it isn't selling, tweak the price point and watch your sales to try to find the sweet spot.


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## Ankari

There are mental barriers that you have to consider.  The obvious example being the use of $XX.99 instead of $7.00.  In the case of your pricing,  you'll find people not buy it simply because it's beyond the $5 soft cap.  I would set it at $4.99 and see how it goes.


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## BWFoster78

I plan to buy it at some point, and the price of $7 vs $5 is not a deterrent.  However, I'm going to buy it because I know you from this forum.

If I were coming across your book at random, the $7 price tag would give me pause.  It's gotten to the point for me that I think about whether I should purchase books that are continuations of series from established authors that I am already invested in reading when the price point is in the $7 to $11 range.

If it's at all obvious that your book is self published and you do not have ton of glowing reviews, your price point is absolutely ridiculously high, IMO.


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## Telcontar

Price wherever you want, but don't be afraid to change it. No one has heard of you, and that is both a good and a bad thing - it is good because you have the freedom to experiment without pissing anybody off. 

That being said, I priced my debut novel at $6.99, but have since lowered it to $5.99 after deciding I wanted more space between myself and the $9.99 "Trade Pub" price point that Amazon wants to espouse. Of course, I may change it again - up, down, whatever. Whatever I think is best for me in the long run.


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## Devor

Seems high to me for a self-published work.  I would go with something closer to 4.99.

You've got to remember, self-publishing means you're not endorsed by anyone, making you a bigger risk to a customer. That factors into the price.


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## JCFarnham

I have to admit this... I barely buy ebooks for $5 (or the equivalant I should say). I have no income, that certainly factors into it (though I'm willing to admit I have room for books in my budget I'm just a whimp when it comes to spending haha)

Let me look at the issue outside the haze of poverty . I would probably price at 4.99. It's not an awful lot of money in the grand scheme of things is it. Higher than that and people, or at least I, would start to wonder why I can't just buy something from a famous author instead. I do have an urge to keep reading the Dresden Files at some point...

I can't say whether my reactions to ebook pricing are justified or not. From a marketing stand point however I see a lot of worth in pricing products cheaply (its the old adage of selling lots of cheap stuff can add up to more profit than selling a few expensive things. ymmv). There's a point just _before_ people start thinking "it's too cheap, why bother?". That's where you want to be. Like everyone else is saying. 

Unfortunately its usually different for different products. Lower the price, see what happens.


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## Zero Angel

Steerpike said:


> I don't know, Zero Angel. It strikes me as too high, but I've never tried that price point (it wouldn't work on my children's book anyway). The good thing is, you can change price easily. You could start it at that and if it isn't selling, tweak the price point and watch your sales to try to find the sweet spot.


Thank you. I guess right now I just don't have the data to figure out if the $6.99 price point is hurting me or having an effect. 



Ankari said:


> There are mental barriers that you have to consider.  The obvious example being the use of $XX.99 instead of $7.00.  In the case of your pricing,  you'll find people not buy it simply because it's beyond the $5 soft cap.  I would set it at $4.99 and see how it goes.


By "soft cap" you mean it's more than a $5 bill? 



BWFoster78 said:


> I plan to buy it at some point, and the price of $7 vs $5 is not a deterrent.  However, I'm going to buy it because I know you from this forum.
> 
> If I were coming across your book at random, the $7 price tag would give me pause.  It's gotten to the point for me that I think about whether I should purchase books that are continuations of series from established authors that I am already invested in reading when the price point is in the $7 to $11 range.
> 
> If it's at all obvious that your book is self published and you do not have ton of glowing reviews, your price point is absolutely ridiculously high, IMO.


Thank you. I guess I need to promote less "at-random" views and more people seeking out my book because they want it. It is still cheaper than "mainstream" eBooks--which seem to be between $8.99 and $14.99(!!!). 



Telcontar said:


> Price wherever you want, but don't be afraid to change it. No one has heard of you, and that is both a good and a bad thing - it is good because you have the freedom to experiment without pissing anybody off.
> 
> That being said, I priced my debut novel at $6.99, but have since lowered it to $5.99 after deciding I wanted more space between myself and the $9.99 "Trade Pub" price point that Amazon wants to espouse. Of course, I may change it again - up, down, whatever. Whatever I think is best for me in the long run.


Is $9.99 the price point they are trying to get the Big 6 to shoot for?


Devor said:


> Seems high to me for a self-published work.  I would go with something closer to 4.99.
> 
> You've got to remember, self-publishing means you're not endorsed by anyone, making you a bigger risk to a customer. That factors into the price.


Great point, Devor. Risk/cost analysis is a major issue. At least with the traditional published material you have "the Gatekeepers" that had to sign off on those books (although there's a lot of crap out there in my opinion--not the best gatekeepers in the world). 


JCFarnham said:


> I have to admit this... I barely buy ebooks for $5 (or the equivalant I should say). I have no income, that certainly factors into it (though I'm willing to admit I have room for books in my budget I'm just a whimp when it comes to spending haha)
> 
> Let me look at the issue outside the haze of poverty . I would probably price at 4.99. It's not an awful lot of money in the grand scheme of things is it. Higher than that and people, or at least I, would start to wonder why I can't just buy something from a famous author instead. I do have an urge to keep reading the Dresden Files at some point...
> 
> I can't say whether my reactions to ebook pricing are justified or not. From a marketing stand point however I see a lot of worth in pricing products cheaply (its the old adage of selling lots of cheap stuff can add up to more profit than selling a few expensive things. ymmv). There's a point just _before_ people start thinking "it's too cheap, why bother?". That's where you want to be. Like everyone else is saying.
> 
> Unfortunately its usually different for different products. Lower the price, see what happens.


I generally don't _buy_ eBooks I admit--which is probably partly why I am not 100% confident about my price point and why I based it off the mass market paperback price. Most eBooks I've read have been available for free. I've only started purchasing eBooks since getting on this site to check out and support the writings of the members here. As part of my discretionary spending, I don't have a lot for books (or anything). 


...thank you everyone for your comments so far! I still don't know what I will do.


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## TWErvin2

For me, I won't pay for an ebook that costs as much or more than a mass market paperback, and that includes authors that I have read and enjoyed. I'll wait for it to be discounted or drop in price over time. Thus, for me as a potential reader, $6.99 is a barrier. Many small press novels, not only self-published, are priced under that.

The flip side is that it takes fewer readers to achieve a certain income level, but that also makes it more difficult for a novel to take off.


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## BWFoster78

Since this is a community of writers who, presumbably, all want to publish and market their own books one day if they haven't done so already, I think these types of discussions are extremely valuable.

I think it would be absolutely awesome, however, if other authors would share their experiences with this.  Actual data from someone saying: by changing my price point from x to y, my sales dipped z%, leaving me with a positive/negative net in terms of money.

Once I publish, I will definitely share as much data as I can with y'all.


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## Devor

BWFoster78 said:


> Since this is a community of writers who, presumbably, all want to publish and market their own books one day if they haven't done so already, I think these types of discussions are extremely valuable.
> 
> I think it would be absolutely awesome, however, if other authors would share their experiences with this.  Actual data from someone saying: by changing my price point from x to y, my sales dipped z%, leaving me with a positive/negative net in terms of money.
> 
> Once I publish, I will definitely share as much data as I can with y'all.



MichaelSullivan did that, in a post somewhere.  I'm on the kindle or I'd find it, but you could run a search for 4.99, since that's the price he came to.


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## BWFoster78

Devor,

Thanks.  I recall reading that post.

However, every book is different, and I believe having the information from a lot of different sources has value.


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## Steerpike

I'd consider buying a self published book at 4.99. The chances I would buy one at 6.99 are slim.


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## BWFoster78

One question is:

How likely is the average buyer to know that the book is self published?  If it appears to be professional, do people question it?

On the other hand, since discovering self published books at $5 and below, it's getting harder for me to pay $6, $7, and $8 for even established authors whose work I follow.

The quality of the stuff I've read for less money thus far has been favorable in comparison with my experiences with traditionally published material.  I think it's going to get harder and harder for anyone to squeeze more than $5 from a book unless it's a highly desirable, must-read new release.


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## Zero Angel

BWFoster78 said:


> Since this is a community of writers who, presumbably, all want to publish and market their own books one day if they haven't done so already, I think these types of discussions are extremely valuable.
> 
> I think it would be absolutely awesome, however, if other authors would share their experiences with this.  Actual data from someone saying: by changing my price point from x to y, my sales dipped z%, leaving me with a positive/negative net in terms of money.
> 
> Once I publish, I will definitely share as much data as I can with y'all.



Great idea, BWFoster78. I haven't had much data on people that are interested in my book but for whom the price was an obstacle. Is there a way to see, for instance, page views on books? It would be one thing if I was getting dozens of page views a day but none of those translated into sales. 

If I come across any data or generate any of my own (by the way, my day job is as a mathematician), I will be sure to share. Also, if anyone has some interesting data they would like me to "crunch", I am not entirely opposed to that either.


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## MichaelSullivan

As mentioned I priced my books at $4.95 and they were not generally know as being "self-published" since I used an imprint, had covers as good as New York offerings, and very good descriptions.  I sold books 1 - 4 at that price and book 5 I increased to $6.95 and had no push-back on that price - but the people buying book #5 were already deeply invested in the series and didn't begrudge the extra $2.  

For a first book in a series...Yeah I think $6.99 is too high.  I say keep it under $5.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin

BWFoster78 said:


> One question is:
> 
> How likely is the average buyer to know that the book is self published?  If it appears to be professional, do people question it?


Really depends on the book. If you are using your business name for your publishing work, have a quality cover, and a well written/proofread book, most readers probably aren't going to be able to tell your work from that of any other publisher. Price also has an impact, however. There is a greater tendency to assume a 99 cent ebook is indie published than, say, a $9.99 ebook, with good reason. As average indie prices in the best seller lists continue to climb, however, I think we'll see the distinction much more difficult to discern.

One other comment about prices. Last spring, Amazon changed their algorithms. I don't understand the full scope of the changes, but what I did get from my readings on the subject is that price now factors into placement on the crucial "popularity list". That's the default search pattern users see at Amazon.com, and because most readers don't bother to change the search parameter, it's the system most readers use when browsing for books online today.

What that means is, each sale of a $5 book counts for more in boosting placement on the popularity ranking than each sale of a $1 book. So it's possible (documented, in fact) to have a book which is selling significantly more copies by ranked significantly lower than a lesser selling book. This change is having a detrimental effect on sales of cheaper books, obviously. The change has been noteworthy, with average prices of indie ebooks on the bestseller lists going up significantly in the wake of the change.

I suspect part of that increase is due to smart indies adapting and raising prices a bit to compensate. But part is also due to the very large drop in 99 cent ebooks on the top-hundred charts by genre (which were halved, in most genres, looking at June numbers in comparison to January/February numbers).


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## JCFarnham

Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> One other comment about prices. Last spring, Amazon changed their algorithms. I don't understand the full scope of the changes, but what I did get from my readings on the subject is that price now factors into placement on the crucial "popularity list". That's the default search pattern users see at Amazon.com, and because most readers don't bother to change the search parameter, it's the system most readers use when browsing for books online today.
> 
> What that means is, each sale of a $5 book counts for more in boosting placement on the popularity ranking than each sale of a $1 book. So it's possible (documented, in fact) to have a book which is selling significantly more copies by ranked significantly lower than a lesser selling book. This change is having a detrimental effect on sales of cheaper books, obviously. The change has been noteworthy, with average prices of indie ebooks on the bestseller lists going up significantly in the wake of the change.
> 
> I suspect part of that increase is due to smart indies adapting and raising prices a bit to compensate. But part is also due to the very large drop in 99 cent ebooks on the top-hundred charts by genre (which were halved, in most genres, looking at June numbers in comparison to January/February numbers).



Well, that to me is a blatant example of why distributers of ebooks need to have more/clearer rules placed upon them. It's a bit (or a LOT) devious to bury the cheap books just because Amazon stands to earn more profit on expensive items... devious indeed. Thank you for pointing this change out Kevin. 

Well, that says it all. Price higher, or rather price _professionally_.


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## MichaelSullivan

Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> One other comment about prices. Last spring, Amazon changed their algorithms. I don't understand the full scope of the changes, but what I did get from my readings on the subject is that price now factors into placement on the crucial "popularity list". That's the default search pattern users see at Amazon.com, and because most readers don't bother to change the search parameter, it's the system most readers use when browsing for books online today.



Kevin is right - the price does effect the "popularity list" and I believe the "search" algorithm.  The "Bestseller lists" it does not...those lists are purely sales but are harder to find/get to so the popularity ones are more relevant.


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## BWFoster78

Just an illustration of how price affects purchasing:

I am currently reading 11 unfinished series.  2 of those series have books out that I have not yet read.

Yesterday, I was going to the beach and needed some reading material.  My first thought was to buy Brent Weeks' The Blinding Knife.  The price - 12.99

My eyes popped out of my skull.  

I like Weeks, but really?  I looked at Terry Ervin's Blood Sword.  $2.99.

No offense, Terry, but I probably prefer Weeks' books to yours.  However, do I prefer it over 4x as much?  No.

I bought Blood Sword.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin

MichaelSullivan said:


> Kevin is right - the price does effect the "popularity list" and I believe the "search" algorithm.  The "Bestseller lists" it does not...those lists are purely sales but are harder to find/get to so the popularity ones are more relevant.



Yup! And then of course popularity ranking affects bestselling ranking as a secondary effect. Higher popularity ranking has a positive effect on sales, which then boosts bestselling rank (sorry if I was unclear about that being a secondary effect in the earlier post).


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## Zero Angel

BWFoster78 said:


> How likely is the average buyer to know that the book is self published?  If it appears to be professional, do people question it?
> 
> On the other hand, since discovering self published books at $5 and below, it's getting harder for me to pay $6, $7, and $8 for even established authors whose work I follow.



See, I'm having the reverse reaction to books. When I see a book that is cheaper than $8, I assume that it is self-published or inferior so I am more likely to dig further. Oh, this is just a novella, oh it's self-published and the author isn't very good, oh it's a 30 year old book, etc. 

If I see something that is priced high, I assume that it is traditionally published and higher quality. Maybe not two-four times better, but better nonetheless. I'm not saying I am any more likely to buy one or the other, but I do know when I see a "cheap" book that red flags pop up and I have to be either invested in the author (as with all of you) or be blown away by its marketing/reviews/etc. 

As I mentioned earlier, I will be dropping the price of the first book when the sequel comes out, so I think I just need to keep writing until I get 10-20 books on Amazon and then if people think the higher priced ones are too high, I can direct them to the lower priced ones. 

I am also thinking of a Christmas sale--I wish Amazon allowed you to set up sales automatically instead of forcing you to do it manually -_-


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin

I've heard other writers suggest the same thing, Zero Angel. I've also heard some indie writers beginning to suggest that the new "sweet spot" might be a couple of dollars below whatever the "big six" are selling new books for. At least, once you have built something of an audience, anyway. That's heavily debated, mind you, but the indications are that the average price of indie ebooks in top-hundred best seller lists is climbing, slowly but steadily.


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## Caged Maiden

I just want to comment on pricing of merchandise.

So I used to make soap in my home.  It was good quality, all vegetable oils, and no additives except herbs from my garden.  I used to haul forty pounds of soap to a show, sell it for two days, then give away a bunch just to not have to haul it home again.  It wasn't about making a profit for me, it was about selling the remainders of the eight-pound batches after I took what I used in my home out.  SO basically, in selling a few bars, I paid for the supplies for the next batch.  What does this have to do with books, you ask?

Well, when I put it up for sale at $2 a bar, I barely sold any, and when I sold it for $4 a bar, I sold much more.  Does that make sense?  Not to me it didn't.  Until someone explained it to me, after I told them about the weirdness of selling more after raising my prices.

They told me that at $4 a bar, people felt like they were purchasing something special, a product of superior quality, even though it was the exact same bar and recipe I'd always sold for less.  However, if I priced it at $7 a bar, I'd see sales drop off again because that was too high for people to pay even for something special.

The lesson?  That if it's too inexpensive, people doubt the quality, and if it's too expensive, they feel thy might get something better for their money.  

That being said, I would probably pay $2.99-$4.99 for a book, but I'd think the $7.99 or $9.99 might just be more book than I'm looking for, or that someone thinks too highly of their work.  

Pricing products is very important, because it says more than just "I'd like everyone to read this, so I'll make it $.99.  I think by asking the questions, it shows you're already ahead of where I was when I was pricing my soap, so good for you, thinking of it that way.  Best wishes on your sales.  I hope you find the price point that gets you noticed and makes you the profits you are looking for.  Nothing is more exciting than when you get repeat customers.


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## Zero Angel

Caged Maiden said:


> Pricing products is very important, because it says more than just "I'd like everyone to read this, so I'll make it $.99.  I think by asking the questions, it shows you're already ahead of where I was when I was pricing my soap, so good for you, thinking of it that way.  Best wishes on your sales.  I hope you find the price point that gets you noticed and makes you the profits you are looking for.  Nothing is more exciting than when you get repeat customers.



I enjoyed your comment and appreciate the info/ideas, but I just wanted to mention that I can't see myself making any _profit_ on my books in the foreseeable future. 

Any money I make I am funneling back into my books--whether that is editors/cover artists or things like paying for a PO Box, flyers, bar codes, marketing and not to mention travel expenses to conventions and so forth. 

This has the dual effects of (1) making my work better, and (2) helping out my taxes


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## Zero Angel

Brian's helpful blog post:

Interesting Blog Post Analyzing ebook Pricing | brianwfoster.com

and the applicable link from it:

Update to the Fantasy Bestseller Breakdown


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin

That reminds me. I need to do a new set of those; that article is a little dated at this point, and I'm curious how the market has changed. My guess is, publisher prices are down, indie prices are up, and publishers have gained a little bit of market share back. But I'll have to go get the data to see if my hunches are correct.


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## Zero Angel

If you have the time, Kevin, then more power to you! I'm sure there are many authors that would be interested in seeing updates.


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## BWFoster78

Zero Angel said:


> Brian's helpful blog post:
> 
> Interesting Blog Post Analyzing ebook Pricing | brianwfoster.com
> 
> and the applicable link from it:
> 
> Update to the Fantasy Bestseller Breakdown



I ran across that post while doing a Google search on marketing ebooks on Amazon.  I was quite surprised when I realized it was Kevin's blog.  He did an incredible job on those articles.  Very useful!


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## Zero Angel

Wow, I am the most oblivious person in the world. Thanks for pointing me to that blog Brian, and thanks for such a useful blog Kevin! 

Mythic Scribes members for the win!


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin

Thanks, guys! Glad it was useful.

We DO have a pretty cool crew around this site, don't we?


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## BWFoster78

Zero Angel,

When I previously looked at this thread, I answered without even looking at your Amazon page.  I just did.

Please, for the love of God, man, buy and read: Making a Killing on Kindle.


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## Zero Angel

BWFoster78 said:


> Zero Angel,
> 
> When I previously looked at this thread, I answered without even looking at your Amazon page.  I just did.
> 
> Please, for the love of God, man, buy and read: Making a Killing on Kindle.



...I have purchased this book. Do you mind elaborating what you are referring to? Or just the whole presentation disappointed you...?

I have been adjusting the blurb as I promote it to people face to face, and I am commissioning a cover artist for the print version which I will adapt to the eBook. But I like the title and I'm pretty set on the price (except for sales/etc). So...yeeaah, anything else about my page set you off?


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## BWFoster78

Sent a PM.


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## ALB2012

Zero Angel said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I have been having doubts about the price of my novel.
> 
> My doubts are not that my book is not worth US$6.99, but rather that self-published eBooks are rarely that high.
> 
> When pricing my novel, I assumed it was worth as much as the cheapest paper books available: the mass-market paperback. These 50K-100K print run books clock in at between $6.99 and $8.99. If there is a book that I am interested in that is mass-market, I will probably buy it as readily as I would check it out at the library.
> 
> So that is why I priced my eBook at $6.99.
> 
> I've seen everything from people saying that self-published eBooks should be free, to no more than $2.99, to no more than $4.99, to no more than etc.
> 
> What are your thoughts?
> 
> If it influences your decision, my pricing plan for all my books is the following:
> 
> New Novels: $6.99
> Old Novels: $4.99
> Novellas: $2.99
> Short stories: $0.99
> 
> Definition of "old" would be when the sequel comes out lower the price point of the earlier in the series to $4.99.


, 

Personally I wouldn't pay 6.99 for an e-book. I think my limit might be 4.99 or so but we are talking about Â£  so I have no idea what that relates to in dollars. I would agree 99c is fine for a short. I say a 10 page book for 4.99 the other day.

But at the end of the day they are your books and you can charge what you please. If no one decides to buy them then you can drop the price and still make decent royalty. if the book is good people won't mind paying a bit extra.
I like your idea of dropping the price when a new one comes out.


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## Zero Angel

@BWFoster78: I guess PM. Constructive criticism is always good to have (and I will try to take it better than I usually take medicine ). Thank you in advance.

@ALB2012: 6.99 US is about 4.69 UK. Here's the UK link: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B008L1G3TM


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## ALB2012

I like your cover, but what do I know. I am not sold on the blurb but I got a sample


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## T.Allen.Smith

I think the biggest problem with your cover is that it says:

By Richard "Zero Angel" Richardson

Professional authors don't use "By" & they don't combine naming.

If you don't want to use your real name due to commonality that's a good reason but a better pseudonym might help. As a buyer, I'd even prefer something like this:

The Throne of Ao

Z.A. Richardson

Secondarily, your cover art screams self-pubbed. As Michael was saying before, if you wish to be taken seriously, you need to look like the big boys. Decent cover art can range between $300 - $10k plus. Yes, that can be a lot of money depending on your finances. I'm not saying you have to do anything. Just consider attracting more business and readers by going to a site like deviant art.... Lots of talented artists needing to make a name for themselves as well.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin

Actually, you can get some *really* good cover art these days for $25-100. Nice, polished, very crisp designs, etc.

You can also pay thousands of dollars for cover art. And the art that you pay a thousand bucks for will be better than the $100 art. But here's the thing: people are going to be viewing your cover art mostly at postage stamp size. That's the size it needs to sell them at. Which means the designs need to be a lot different from the elaborate paintings we once saw dominate cover art. They need to be crisp, clean design with lettering that stands out in very clear fonts. Simple designs work better than complex ones.

The design still ought to evoke the story, however, and the fonts used should look professional, and be properly placed. All that takes some art and design skill. But your hundred dollar cover might be 98% as effective as the thousand dollar one. So the indie writer makes a decision: is that other 2% worth $900? Usually not.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin

Zero, you want a cover crit? I've done professional design before, and could probably give you some pointers. Either here or PM, if you'd like. Don't want to embarrass you, but some of the points made are really common ones that others might find valuable as well.


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## BWFoster78

Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> Actually, you can get some *really* good cover art these days for $25-100. Nice, polished, very crisp designs, etc.
> 
> You can also pay thousands of dollars for cover art. And the art that you pay a thousand bucks for will be better than the $100 art. But here's the thing: people are going to be viewing your cover art mostly at postage stamp size. That's the size it needs to sell them at. Which means the designs need to be a lot different from the elaborate paintings we once saw dominate cover art. They need to be crisp, clean design with lettering that stands out in very clear fonts. Simple designs work better than complex ones.
> 
> The design still ought to evoke the story, however, and the fonts used should look professional, and be properly placed. All that takes some art and design skill. But your hundred dollar cover might be 98% as effective as the thousand dollar one. So the indie writer makes a decision: is that other 2% worth $900? Usually not.



Any links to where I can get $25-50 cover art?  I had been planning on forgoing it for my novelette, but, if I can get it for that cheap, it's worth it.


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## BWFoster78

Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> Zero, you want a cover crit? I've done professional design before, and could probably give you some pointers. Either here or PM, if you'd like. Don't want to embarrass you, but some of the points made are really common ones that others might find valuable as well.



From a PM, I know that Zero is already in the process of having a new cover designed.

However, I'd love to hear some of your tips.

BTW, if anyone has the time, Zero really needs some reviews.  He asked some of his friends to do them for him, and he now has (4) 5-star reviews that read as if he's the best author in the history of the world from people who've only done the one review.

I'll be doing one.


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## Zero Angel

T.Allen.Smith said:


> I think the biggest problem with your cover is that it says:
> By Richard "Zero Angel" Richardson
> Professional authors don't use "By" & they don't combine naming.
> 
> Secondarily, your cover art screams self-pubbed. As Michael was saying before, if you wish to be taken seriously, you need to look like the big boys. Decent cover art can range between $300 - $10k plus. Yes, that can be a lot of money depending on your finances. I'm not saying you have to do anything. Just consider attracting more business and readers by going to a site like deviant art.... Lots of talented artists needing to make a name for themselves as well.



Thanks for the points T. Allen Smith. I do have a few books with the "by" and combined naming also, but I do understand that the trend nowadays is to market the author's name as much (or more) than the title and many are forgoing it. I'm not opposed to taking out the "by" part, but I'm fine with the penname as is. I've had some people question it, but it seems to cause people to give it a second look, which isn't a bad thing. 

As far as the cover itself, I am fond of the design, although there are elements of it I wish were done more professionally. In my "ideal" leather-bound version of the book, I would have a cover with the solune (the eight-pointed half-eclipsed sun on the cover) ith nothing else, but I have succumbed to the evil that is marketing and as BWFoster pointed out below, am in negotiations with a few people to see what can be done--hopefully getting a nice map or two along the way.



Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> Zero, you want a cover crit? I've done professional design before, and could probably give you some pointers. Either here or PM, if you'd like. Don't want to embarrass you, but some of the points made are really common ones that others might find valuable as well.


Hello Kevin, thank you for the offer. If you would like to, then I will accept it via PM--if you want to do a cover recommendation thread separately, then I think it is worthwhile but I am reluctant to offer myself up as the sacrificial pig of "what not to do". 



BWFoster78 said:


> BTW, if anyone has the time, Zero really needs some reviews.  He asked some of his friends to do them for him, and he now has (4) 5-star reviews that read as if he's the best author in the history of the world from people who've only done the one review.


Thanks Brian. I don't believe all the reviews up there are from friends, but the ones from my friends are bad. They have not taken the hint that I would prefer them to either have a substantive review or possibly not compare me to Tolkien; I think some of the reviewers were comparing my books to the LotR _movies_(!!!) and not the books, but it isn't clear from their reviews. It's a mess though and it is embarrassing. I've pushed to the point that they were offended and left it at that. My goal now is to get enough substantive reviews so that the good-natured reviews that do not say much are overtaken.

Book blogger Pauline M Ross just reviewed my book on her blog and Goodreads and will be posting it to Amazon in the next few days she said. Here is the relevant page: Pauline's Fantasy Reviews: Fantasy Review: 'The Throne of Ao' by Robert Richardson

As she even makes the point in there, I tend to skip the fluff to get to the action (although she meant this as a criticism, it is deliberate--not saying I achieved the perfect balance of fluff-skipping or anything like that, but well, that stuff generally bores me when I read (hence, the even more vehemently disagreeing with Tolkien comparisons)). 

I am hoping for more reviews in the future and am open to review copies for bloggers or top reviewers, etc.


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## T.Allen.Smith

Zero Angel said:


> Thanks for the points T. Allen Smith. I do have a few books with the "by" and combined naming also, but I do understand that the trend nowadays is to market the author's name as much (or more) than the title and many are forgoing it. I'm not opposed to taking out the "by" part, but I'm fine with the penname as is. I've had some people question it, but it seems to cause people to give it a second look, which isn't a bad thing.
> 
> As far as the cover itself, I am fond of the design, although there are elements of it I wish were done more professionally. In my "ideal" leather-bound version of the book, I would have a cover with the solune (the eight-pointed half-eclipsed sun on the cover) ith nothing else, but I have succumbed to the evil that is marketing and as BWFoster pointed out below, am in negotiations with a few people to see what can be done--hopefully getting a nice map or two along the way.



Just to be clear, I like the design of the image. It just needs a more professional image.

In the end, you're the author. Do what you like with your work. The points I addressed are merely things that stand apart from what traditional publishers put out. Maybe you don't want to look like them. In my opinion though, your more likely to sell successfully if your book doesn't appear any different than what the big publishers are doing.


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## MichaelSullivan

T.Allen.Smith said:


> In my opinion though, your more likely to sell successfully if your book doesn't appear any different than what the big publishers are doing.



I agree...especially if you are pricing your book along the same lines as the New York releases then your quality in cover, blurb, and the writing must mirror that as well.


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## julidrevezzo

Thanks for your comment, Caged Maiden. That's interesting. I have to say that happened to me. I priced my book at $2.99 for the first month, then some articles and fb people and gurus said,  "Oh, no. That's too high for a newbie. Drop it to $.99 quick!" I couldn't stomach that low a price for a full novel, so, against all my peeps advice dropped it to $1.99. You know what happened? Less sales than at $2.99. *scratches head* Yes,  I  made more sales at the higher price than at the lower price. Seems pretty darned counter intuitive to me, but there it is. Kinda makes me wish I'd never dropped it, given Amazon's lower royalty rate. But I gotta say $6.99 or higher for an ebook seems... well, I've seen small indie publishing houses do it, and I've seen those same writers complain about selling very little. Plus I think some people look at them and think "$7.99 for an ethereal computer file? Nah." So, I'd take that into account and maybe price your paperback at $7.99.  Just a thought.


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## Zero Angel

julidrevezzo said:


> Thanks for your comment, Caged Maiden. That's interesting. I have to say that happened to me. I priced my book at $2.99 for the first month, then some articles and fb people and gurus said,  "Oh, no. That's too high for a newbie. Drop it to $.99 quick!" I couldn't stomach that low a price for a full novel, so, against all my peeps advice dropped it to $1.99. You know what happened? Less sales than at $2.99. *scratches head* Yes,  I  made more sales at the higher price than at the lower price. Seems pretty darned counter intuitive to me, but there it is. Kinda makes me wish I'd never dropped it, given Amazon's lower royalty rate. But I gotta say $6.99 or higher for an ebook seems... well, I've seen small indie publishing houses do it, and I've seen those same writers complain about selling very little. Plus I think some people look at them and think "$7.99 for an ethereal computer file? Nah." So, I'd take that into account and maybe price your paperback at $7.99.  Just a thought.



As far as paperbacks go, if you are not going with an offset printing or a traditional publisher, good luck getting it to the $7.99 level. You're generally looking at a cost of $3-6 for a moderate sized fantasy, plus required discounts of 40-60% at least for stores/distributors. If you write Brandon Sanderson-sized tomes, then expect a significantly higher list price. That said, I encourage discounts for people going to book fairs/sales/etc. As long as you're making a positive profit, then exposure is the primary goal until you are more successful.


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## Kevin O. McLaughlin

Zero Angel said:


> As far as paperbacks go, if you are not going with an offset printing or a traditional publisher, good luck getting it to the $7.99 level. You're generally looking at a cost of $3-6 for a moderate sized fantasy, plus required discounts of 40-60% at least for stores/distributors. If you write Brandon Sanderson-sized tomes, then expect a significantly higher list price. That said, I encourage discounts for people going to book fairs/sales/etc. As long as you're making a positive profit, then exposure is the primary goal until you are more successful.



Depends on the size of the book.   A 150 page book will cost about $2.25 or so per copy, and I have one of those being printed by Createspace which I sell at $7.99 so I can get into Amazon's "buy three get one free" paperback deal.

Also remember that you can use Lightning Source to "short discount" as low as 20%. I don't do that, right now anyway, for a variety of reasons. But you can, and all the online bookstores will still pick the book up, although it pretty much kills the idea of physical bookstores buying any copies. A 500 page book will cost $6.50 to print through LSI, so $7.99 doesn't quite work (the retailer would get $1.60 at a twenty percent discount, which adds up to more than $7.99). But at $8.99 the retailer would get $1.80, leaving 69 cents for the publisher (still more than most writers will get per paperback sale from a large publisher). And at the still reasonable price (darn cheap price, for a nice trade paperback) of $9.99, the retailer gets $2 and leaves you the publisher with $1.50.

So yeah, you can keep paper prices down with POD. There are a variety of pros and cons to doing so, and they change over time, so it's not as simple a decision as it might sound. But it IS possible.


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## Zero Angel

Kevin O. McLaughlin said:


> Depends on the size of the book.   A 150 page book will cost about $2.25 or so per copy, and I have one of those being printed by Createspace which I sell at $7.99 so I can get into Amazon's "buy three get one free" paperback deal.
> 
> Also remember that you can use Lightning Source to "short discount" as low as 20%. I don't do that, right now anyway, for a variety of reasons. But you can, and all the online bookstores will still pick the book up, although it pretty much kills the idea of physical bookstores buying any copies. A 500 page book will cost $6.50 to print through LSI, so $7.99 doesn't quite work (the retailer would get $1.60 at a twenty percent discount, which adds up to more than $7.99). But at $8.99 the retailer would get $1.80, leaving 69 cents for the publisher (still more than most writers will get per paperback sale from a large publisher). And at the still reasonable price (darn cheap price, for a nice trade paperback) of $9.99, the retailer gets $2 and leaves you the publisher with $1.50.
> 
> So yeah, you can keep paper prices down with POD. There are a variety of pros and cons to doing so, and they change over time, so it's not as simple a decision as it might sound. But it IS possible.



I was assuming the average fantasy novel to be about 300-400 pages. But yes, if you have a low page count, then this is feasible. Also, I thought traditional generally got about 10% of the price? Or is it just 10% of the profit?


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## MichaelSullivan

Zero Angel said:


> I was assuming the average fantasy novel to be about 300-400 pages. But yes, if you have a low page count, then this is feasible. Also, I thought traditional generally got about 10% of the price? Or is it just 10% of the profit?



Royalty rates for traditional is generally:


10%  of list - for hardcover
8% of list for mass market paperback
7.5% of list for trade paperback
25% of net (17.5% of list for ebooks)

Some contracts have escalation rates but generally you have to sell a lot of books to get those.


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