# "Medieval Ages" Before the Sword: Choosing a time period for story



## Swordfry (Feb 1, 2015)

I have been having some trouble choosing a specific time period for my story to take place in. When I start it, it will be set near the beginning of the world. I'm thinking no more than 1,000 years have passed since Creation, possibly even only 300 years.

One big element to the mythos of my world is that a mystical weapon is sent down to the planet, one that has never been seen before. This weapon, is a sword, the very first sword, made completely out of one otherworldly material. It serves as a template for future weapons to inspire the inhabitants of this world.

However, I have been imagining my world as one pretty similar to a typical Tolkien fantasy world. Castles, knights, a very rough medieval age world.

Can anyone please give me some suggestions? I can do without castles if need be. I _think_ I could probably get by with my original plan, as armor, buildings, tools, and weapons would all be made from wood, stone, primitive metals like copper and bronze, maybe some iron. Just need some suggestions.

I has often crossed my mind to just say "Well...they just never thought of the idea of a sword before." After all, weapons like clubs, spears, and axes are more simple in design. They're just sticks with things added on to them. Swords require taking a hunk of metal, forging and shaping it, and sharpening it. I could work the culture of my new races to just be ignorant about swords and more complex weapons...for now at least. 

I must also mention this is a fictional planet very similar to Earth. So I could get away with many things, lol.


Well first post here on Mythic Scribes and it's a doozy, lol. I think I'm going to like it here


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## WooHooMan (Feb 1, 2015)

Make your own time period.
If it's not Earth than why bother trying to be accurate to Earth history?

But seriously, when trying to create a real-world parallel, you don't just think about time but space too.  I had a setting based on Polynesia but metalworking there didn't become common place until well after "medieval time" so I had to do fictional colonial Polynesia even though I initial wanted ancient Polynesia.  
And, of course, you have to remember that not all countries progress at the same rate.  Metalworking in medieval Japan was different from metalworking in medieval China which was still different than metalworking in medieval Europe.

I assume the time-honored tradition of weapon fetishism is going to be a present theme in your story so you should look towards culture that.  I suggest a vaguely Babylonian setting: very near the begin of human civilization, back when metalworking was first being practiced.  There would still be castles but they'll be more like ziggurats.  Still unique.

When I read your post, I immediately thought of the Conan movie (where weaponry is a big theme) and the Thief video game series (which has a mythology based around metalworking), so maybe look towards those for some ideas.

Also, welcome to Mythic Scribes.  Enjoy your stay


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## wordwalker (Feb 1, 2015)

I have trouble with the idea that people just never thought of swords until now.

Yes, a world's metalworking could be different, but... nobody's ever tried making a longer knife, to have a weapon that's faster than an axe? Warfare is famous for pushing innovation to new levels (nothing like being invaded, or your king demanding new weapons, to concentrate the mind). For instance, in the Middle East swords evolved from farming sickles; that's why the kopesh and scimitar have curves.

If you really want swords to be a revelation, you might want to make all of metalworking unknown too, and keep people in the late stone age. Or you could create a deep mythology around your smiths that keeps them making axes and similar weapons; maybe the Smith Guild founders were warned by the gods that swords would lead to Armageddon, and so ever since they've been keeping people thinking in terms of other weapons.

It's not impossible, though. The _Demon Cycle_ books by Peter Brett have a world of only spears and axes, where the word "sword" isn't even used once (I've checked) although there are a couple of "machetes." I don't know its full history, but since it's besieged by demons that can really only be hurt by magic, I guess its people have been afraid to think in terms of a dedicated weapon shape when they're too scared to fight.


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## Jabrosky (Feb 1, 2015)

I agree that a setting without metallurgy would work well for your purposes. You could make its technology literally "stone age", meaning that stone (along with wood, bone, and other non-metallic materials of course) is the primary material for weapons and other tools.

Note that this does _not_ necessarily limit your culture to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle as the phrase "stone age" commonly implies. If you look at all the Native American civilizations (e.g. Aztec, Maya, Inca, Mississippians, etc.) they never developed any metal tools or weapons whatsoever (unless you count decorative gold ornaments) despite having enough social complexity to erect monumental architecture and develop their writing and calendars. I'm not saying you need to model your setting specifically on Native American influences, but they do go to show that what we call civilization doesn't always require metalworking.


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## ThinkerX (Feb 1, 2015)

Limit metallurgy. Like your sword, like many real world mythologies, metal working was the gift of a god.  Only the chosen of that god are permitted to know the secrets of smith work.  This smith cult maintains its grip in part by toadying to a warrior elite - effectively knights in all but name.


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## Nimue (Feb 1, 2015)

Whoa.  Less than 1,000 years since creation?  If I'm not mistaken (read a Nat Geo article on this recently) it took tens of thousands of years between the first biologically modern human appearing on the planet to basic tool use.  Is a god/gods helping human culture along?  Because otherwise, you need eons of basic language, technology, and culture buildup to get anywhere near the middle ages.


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## skip.knox (Feb 2, 2015)

Swords aren't about metallurgy. The early impulse is to put an edge on a rock. Use it for scraping sinews off hide. Use it for stabbing an animal to get the hide in the first place. It's a short jump from that to putting an edge on a rock to stab the d*ckhead sitting across the fire from you.

Metal is just an improvement on that original impulse. So, I agree with the others--the notion that people hadn't yet thought about stabbing the jerk on the other side of the campfire seems like a real stretch.


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## Swordfry (Feb 2, 2015)

WooHooMan said:


> Make your own time period.
> 
> I suggest a vaguely Babylonian setting: very near the begin of human civilization, back when metalworking was first being practiced.  There would still be castles but they'll be more like ziggurats.  Still unique.
> 
> When I read your post, I immediately thought of the Conan movie



I like both of these ideas. I'll look into them. Thanks.


Let me elaborate on my races and why I think a world like this could exist for some time without swords:

Only one of my races, a diminutive, goblin-like race, is warlike at all. And they only have conflict with a second race that they oppress and keep backed up along the coastlines of the continent. This goblin-like race mostly lives in heavily wooded areas. So it is easy to believe that their armory consists of mostly wooden weapons. Spears would be plentiful, and perfect for guarding borders against a race taller in height.

This second oppressed race is one that lives on a coastal culture. Any weapons they produce would have to be made out of bones, shell, and little wood. I see no way they could even think of a sword as none of these materials seem viable for that to me.

The other races are a distant, peaceful race of giants. If they ever come into conflict, they barely need weapons due to their size. The last race is a fierce, more primitive one equipped with a unique biological weapon. So they never thought they needed the use of any weapons.


So I could really see this little world of mine thrive for some time without swords, but with plenty of conflict and weapons.

I've also really considered making my world one not rich in many metals. Might go with this.


But thanks for all of the feedback. I love how there is this whole forum specifically for worldbuilding


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## Terry Greer (Feb 2, 2015)

If you want something non-metallic with a keen edge in an artificial world made only a thousand years before then:
The world will still be largely volcanic - no time for sedimentary rocks to form, so the world will be made up of congealed magma. (like the Hawain islands, iceland or the Canary islands.)

In that landscape, which WILL be metal poor as metal deposits require iron fixing bacteria and millions of years to develop, followed by a change in atmosphere to get deposited - then the probably the best substance would be volcanic glass - Obsidian.
Obsidian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Used for knives and sword edges from antiquity.


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## X Equestris (Feb 2, 2015)

Yeah, Obsidian is probably your best bet for a sword making material in this very small timeframe.


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## Chilari (Feb 2, 2015)

It depends on the status of the world at "Creation". It's one thing to say you want it to be like "300 years after Creation" but without defining that Creation, we've got no point of reference. At the point of Creation, how populated was the world? what kind of geological or climatalogical region are we looking at these people living in? Things like altitude, water sources, flora and fauna, and so on are all going to influence the development of the civilisation. You've mentioned goblins in woods and one race (humans? you didn't specify) being coastal, but coastal in the Mediterranean is different from coastal in Peru or coastal on the Orkney islands. Likewise woodlands vary depending on continent, climate, altitude, what kinds of animals are eating the trees and living in them, and so on.

Avoiding swords is easy. Keep iron and bronze out of the equation and there's no swords. Which doesn't mean to say there aren't other weapons, like spears, clubs, maces, axes and so on. Even weapons that have some elements in common with swords, like using a wooden pole of about sword-length and putting sharpened stones into it along the length.

Building cultures from scratch, though, is hard. It sounds like you've got some of the starting elements - coastal for one, forest for another. Now you just need to see where those core elements can take you. Start by researching real world cultures that share some of those elements. Going back to Orkney (because Orkney is cool), they didn't have much wood there either. Prehistoric Orkney Islanders at Skara Brae built with stone and turf, setting their houses below the ground with walkways between them as a protection from strong sea winds blowing sand from the beaches (it's no fun walking along getting pelted with tiny grains of sand). So that might be one culture you could read up on. Look for a few more (Googling "[area name] prehistoric cultures" might give you a good start), see which bits you want to include, and you'll start to build up a solid picture.


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## K.S. Crooks (Feb 2, 2015)

You should consider the level of farming you want to have for the basis of the weapons used. Many of the first weapons have their basis from farm tools, which were then used by the farmers to defend themselves. What ever the level of technology is, it will always need to be used to feed the population before they can consider going to war.


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## Swordfry (Feb 2, 2015)

Okay, so I know that I was way off with my time frame for these events after Creation, lol. I have never really planned much for the earliest stage of life and their culture, mostly because they stay pretty much the same. The races I have up to this point with civilized, intelligent beings in large communities and even small cities remain the same from Creation. There is no series of evolution like all the hominids that led up to humans. I'm aware that this sounds like a cheap shortcut, but my world evolves faster and differently. Heck, I may even through in something magical or some divine intervention to help my case, lol. I never once imagined any of my races as primordial at all. They just appear as they do now, a more biblical method. I like it.

The earliest stages of my planet and the people on it are really only known as myths and legends, much like how the ancient world and our creation is mostly mystery because nobody around recorded or documented any of it. The past is made up of tales, rumors, and myths. The only things the races really know are who they are, how they arrived on the continent and in its different regions, and a few other smaller things.


And I have indeed thought about how tools of the time influence weaponry. Still don't really have anything that could lead up to a sword. Small, very rough blades and axes are one thing. My other weapons, spears, that my oppressive race is the dominant, effective weapon for them as I explained earlier due to their stature and purpose for the weapons (only keeping out unwanted people). Along with their mostly forest dwelling culture, I can not see how a sword would occur to them one bit.


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## wordwalker (Feb 3, 2015)

I'd say the idea of a sword would come up once blades could be made of metal rather than stone (or obsidian, which is super-sharp volcanic glass). With stone heads, an axe or hammer is all you need for power, or a spear for reach. But once you have metal and can make lighter, more durable blades in any shape you want, it only makes sense to try stretching out a knife to have a weapon that's faster than an axe. 

It might be an extension of carrying knives as backup weapons (the Greeks still considered swords inferior to their spears), or to machetes and farming sickles. (It's said the sword is the only warfare-only classic weapon, because it's too short to hunt animals but too light to be a tool-- but cutting that kind of vegetation still calls for something that's almost a sword.)


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