# How many words should a fantasy book have?



## Iamfenian (Mar 15, 2013)

I searched for this thread on Mystic Scribes but it could of been another writing forum.  Just wondering what the average word count is for a fantasy novel.  Thanks!


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## T.Allen.Smith (Mar 15, 2013)

The average range probably lies around 90-120K.

The fantasy genre, due to world building aspects is usually granted a bit more space and still considered acceptable.


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## Chilari (Mar 15, 2013)

It _should_ have as many words as it takes to tell the story. With ebooks and self-publishing there's no reason a good enough story of any number of words wouldn't sell.

In traditional publishing and when dead tree books are concerned, printing costs play a part, and as such most novels tend to be 70k to 120k words, with fantasy generally being within the top to thirds of that.

Having decided self-publishing is the way to go, I've decided to write books without consideration to length, and only actually take length into account when deciding how much to charge.


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## Sheriff Woody (Mar 15, 2013)

How long is a piece of string? As long as it needs to be. 

A fantasy novel should have as many words as it takes to tell the story, and every story is different.


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## jax (Mar 15, 2013)

as long as it takes


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## Iamfenian (Mar 15, 2013)

> In traditional publishing and when dead tree books are concerned, printing costs play a part, and as such most novels tend to be 70k to 120k words, with fantasy generally being within the top to thirds of that.


 i just surpassed the 10,000 mark and my novel is by no means  close to the final chaper but 120k words!  That sounds daunting!


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## Filk (Mar 15, 2013)

I was just looking into this last night and found a wide range of answers. The minimum would be 40k - that is where a novella crosses the line into a novel, at least according to the minimal research I did. I think a couple of Robert Jordan's books topped 200k. I have 35k on the piece I'm working on and it feels like I recently got past the beginning.

If your piece ends up only being 30k words, you shouldn't fret. You would have a novella instead of a novel.


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## Steerpike (Mar 15, 2013)

The last 4 books in Steven Erikson's original Malazan series were all something like 385K-395K. I don't think he broke 400K, but he came damn close.

I think Neal Stephenson did break the 400K mark with Cryptonomicon.


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## T.Allen.Smith (Mar 15, 2013)

I'm usually more afraid of eclipsing the 120k mark. Act 1 of my WIP has about 50k alone.

I wouldn't worry too much about word count on the first run through (and not much at all if you're going to self-publish). Wait until you're done with the first rough draft & then see if you want to add subplots, characters, etc. (or cut those elements).


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## celebathien (Mar 15, 2013)

T.Allen.Smith is right, and just about everyone else is too. Your first draft, write! Don't worry about length. Write the story the way you want it to be. You have to come back and edit it after the first draft regardless, and some of what you've written inevitably winds up on the cutting room floor, per se. That will shorten it. 

Then the second time you go through, you may cut a little more, or even change something in the plot that alters the word count. It happens.

If you self-publish, word count doesn't matter nearly as much as quality of writing. That said, if you do go the traditional publishing route, through a company like Tor or whatnot, many of them will have word counts listed for what they're looking for. Chilari's 70k to 120k is a really good estimate, because the traditional publishers tend to look for shorter works by first-time authors. The big ones you see aren't supposed to be the rule for a first publication (ymmv). 

Definitely write the story that needs telling, however, and then edit. Even if your "finished" (is it ever truly finished for us?) manuscript is 130K, that's what it's meant to be. It's all about the story in the end.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 15, 2013)

It's true that length isn't a concern...usually.  Some specific publishers ask for novels only in a certain length range.  I read recently one publisher said, "Don't send us anything unless it's in the 90,000-130,000 range."  They know their readership, so they can set those guidelines.  Just be aware of markets you want to send to while you're writing.  If there is a publisher you're dead set on sending it to, check their guidelines and see what they say.  If you're self-publishing, then you don't have to worry about it.

Edit:  Oh, sorry celebathien basically said the same thing.  

I'll add this:  fantasy novels are typically on the longish side.  That doesn't mean they all are, but fantasy readers tend to like a lot of longer books.  Some may even want a series out of you.  It's all really up to the publisher.


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## BWFoster78 (Mar 17, 2013)

A lot of posters have given the advice that, "If you're self publishing, you don't have to worry about it."

I'm not sure that's completely true.  My reasoning:

1. Editing will be your major expense, and one that you absolutely should not skip.  Editors charge by the word.
2. It's important to produce a POD version of your book to go with the ecopy since there is still a large portion of the market who only read paper.  Length will impact your pricing for the hardcopies and, thus, your sales.


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## teacup (Mar 17, 2013)

I'd say to just keep writing and enjoy yourself, if you finish and it's too short go back and add things in.
I'm on 128,000 right now and I'm about a chapter from the end on my first write up, it just kind of came together for me.


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## Aspasia (Mar 17, 2013)

It depends a long on what you're writing. If it's an epic fantasy, it's really hard to do it completely (in my experience as a reader) around the lower-bound of a novel, YA is hard to sell in the upper-bound. A lot of authors have their first novel the shortest -- Gardens of the Moon is pretty short compared to the rest of the Malazan books, for example. I think publishers are more cautious with the debut book's length than those that come after (if a series). While personally I love 800+ page monsters, I know there are probably a lot of people who prefer to try a new author with less of an investment of time  . If the story can be told completely in 90K words, 120K, 50K, whatever ... that is the correct length of the novel. The publisher may have their own opinion, though  .


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## Devora (Mar 17, 2013)

Iamfenian said:


> i just surpassed the 10,000 mark and my novel is by no means  close to the final chaper but 120k words!  That sounds daunting!



1. Don't think like that otherwise you'll never finish.

2. Don't even think about the total word count as you are writing. Think about that only when you begin editing the finished draft. 

If you want to give yourself a productive schedule: Set a goal of a certain amount of words and tell yourself that that's how many words you'll write (keep track of the number of words, too). (Example: "I'm gonna write 2,000 words today.")

It's very good if you happen to go over your set daily goal; that just means you're having a really productive writing session.


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## WyrdMystic (Mar 17, 2013)

I'll go with a slightly different and cop out, but still true, answer - a story needs as many words as it needs, no more and no less.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Mar 17, 2013)

Iamfenian said:


> i just surpassed the 10,000 mark and my novel is by no means  close to the final chaper but 120k words!  That sounds daunting!



Actually, I tend to put down 10.000 words per chapter when I really get going, so 120K sounds about right for me. That's twelve chapters, which is just about enough to tell a good story.

It really depends on how dense your writing style is. I probably use more words than I should, but that's what editing is for.


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## DMHamilton (Mar 17, 2013)

I'm definitely in the 'however many it takes' camp. I don't think it's a good idea to write with a word count in mind; just write and see where it takes you!


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## Alex Beecroft (Mar 18, 2013)

I'm working with 150K as an upper limit, because it's harder to place a real doorstopper if you're a first time author. The 60-80K range is good for Romance, but Fantasy tends to be longer, so I go for 100K-150K for now, and will only go longer (if at all) when I'm established.


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## The Unseemly (Mar 18, 2013)

The amount of words a fantasy story should have? You _limit_ yourself on this? I find that priority #1 is the content, and structure, and characters, and all that ladida, but never limit yourself on the word count. A story should never focus on reaching a particular word/page count - it should focus on the story and the maintaining the wholeness and excitement of it.


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## wordwalker (Mar 18, 2013)

Here's my rule of thumb, from agent Rachelle Gardner.

100,000 - 115,000 is an excellent range.  (Keeping it to say 105K shows that you can whittle your work down.) Outside of that, I would say 90K-100K is most likely all right, and 115-124K is probably all right, too. That said, try to keep it in the ideal range.

Actually science fiction and fantasy are the big exceptions to usual standards because these categories tend to run long.  It has to do with all the descriptions and world-building in the writing. 

So for those *other* genres it might be:
Between 80,000 and 89,999 words is 100% safe for literary, romance, mystery, suspense, thriller and horror. 71-80K might be perceived as too short.  It seems as though going over 100K is all right, but not by much.  I suggest stopping at 109K because just the mental hurdle to jump concerning 110K is just another thing you don't want going against you.  
 Over 110K is defined as "epic or saga," not a cozy mystery/etc. 
      80,000 - 89,999:       Totally cool 
      90,000 - 99,999:       Generally safe 
      70,000 - 79,999:       Might be too short; probably all right 
      100,000 - 109,999:    Might be too long; probably all right 
      Below 70,000:           Too short 
      110,000 or above       Too long


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## T.Allen.Smith (Mar 18, 2013)

The Unseemly said:


> The amount of words a fantasy story should have? You limit yourself on this? I find that priority #1 is the content, and structure, and characters, and all that ladida, but never limit yourself on the word count. A story should never focus on reaching a particular word/page count - it should focus on the story and the maintaining the wholeness and excitement of it.



I understand this sentiment. However, most limits are set in place by agents, publishers, or the author's own publishing budget. Typically, agents & publishers aren't going to take a chance on a new author toting around a 200k word manuscript. They're already taking a chance on a new author right out the gates...they don't want to double publication costs during that initial risk.

Now, assuming your an author whose established a fan base, you're going to receive a bit more latitude. Or, if you're self-publishing and you're not concerned with budget (assuming you can hold reader attention during massive works) then do as you please.


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## TheokinsJ (Mar 19, 2013)

How long is a piece of string? A novel is art, it can be as many words and pages as you want. Take an example such as George RR Martin who writes 1800 page books, and then someone such as John Flanagan who writes perhaps a little over 200 pages. It's ultimately how many words are necessary to tell your story, however many words you want to write.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 19, 2013)

I'm just curious, but how many self-published writers release 1,800 page books?  It seems like most self-published stuff is probably in the 300-400 page range, which is usual for most standard novels in the market.  People who publish "what they want" are usually either people who have established themselves in the market and can, in fact, do what they want within limits.  Self-publishing grants leeway, but as others have pointed out, you'll be bearing the cost of a longer work if you do so.

If you're a new writer, it's usually better to try to conform to a certain degree by industry standards.  Some people may say "well, so and so did this or that," but that is "so and so."  If you want to try the well-worn path, you'll probably receive more interest.  If you "write what you want" you may receive more push back than you expect.

As everything is in publishing, it's case by case.


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## advait98 (Mar 19, 2013)

TheokinsJ said:


> How long is a piece of string? A novel is art, it can be as many words and pages as you want. Take an example such as George RR Martin who writes 1800 page books, and then someone such as John Flanagan who writes perhaps a little over 200 pages. It's ultimately how many words are necessary to tell your story, however many words you want to write.



John Flanagan only wrote 200 page books from books 1-5 of RA, after that it was all 300 and 400 pages.

As quite a few people have already said, first time authors should conform to the ideals of the publishers, who really don't want to take unnecessary risks and (probably) would even throw an outstanding manuscript away from a first time author without even a glance just because of its length.
I guess you have to look at it from their perspectives most of the times when you're writing a book.

Not many people have success with even normal 200 or 300 paged stories, and I suppose you can forgive the publishers for throwing away the 800+ stuff.


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## wordwalker (Mar 19, 2013)

Phil the Drill said:


> I'm just curious, but how many self-published writers release 1,800 page books?  It seems like most self-published stuff is probably in the 300-400 page range, which is usual for most standard novels in the market.  People who publish "what they want" are usually either people who have established themselves in the market and can, in fact, do what they want within limits.  Self-publishing grants leeway, but as others have pointed out, you'll be bearing the cost of a longer work if you do so.



True. But, there's a lot less per-page cost if it's a self-published e-book.

Now, what plans an author has to _do_ with 1,800 electronic pages the world hasn't heard of, that's another kind of story.


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