# Extra Content Questions and Ideas



## Zero Angel (Jan 18, 2013)

Hi guys,

I've been working on the second edition of my first book for a while now. Not much in the way of content changes--I've edited I don't know how many times before it was originally released and did one last edit a few months ago and already republished that. Mainly, I want to include extras for the readers/fans that are easily available for the ebook format as well as a long awaited new cover.

I am planning on including the following:
Front Content:
Maps (a world map and 2-3 regional maps)​
Back Content:
Character Profiles
Monster Profiles
Possibly: D&D d20 stats for characters/monsters
More information on history/legends​
Anyway, my questions are the following:

Anyone have any ideas on other content you might want to see in a fantasy novel outside of the story that I should think about including?
Would unprofessional content (for instance, sketches--be they maps, characters or creatures) be a turn-off? Or does the very nature of being extra content make it acceptable?


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## Ireth (Jan 18, 2013)

The idea of d20 stats for the characters and creatures in a fantasy book strikes me as odd, unless the book is somehow related to D&D or similar RPGs. I don't think character profiles are really necessary, since the reader would already know a lot about your character simply through the book itself. Maps are fine, and a genealogy could be interesting.


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## CupofJoe (Jan 18, 2013)

It is fairly common for Graphic Novels to include character sketches and alternative character designs. They can give a very different "what-if"perspective...
If you were to included gaming stats you might as well go the extra mile and work them out for GURPS, Warhammer etc as well. but I agree that I wouldn't expect to see them unless there was an obvious tie-in.
I can't remember the Sci-fi book's title but at the end of one there were "adverts"  for places written about in the story [there was a hotel, Robot repair centre and a gun dealership that I can remember]. It was a fun way to do a little bit of infodumping as well as filling out the world...


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## Butterfly (Jan 18, 2013)

I agree totally with Ireth.

As an extra I think you should consider an excerpt from your next novel, perhaps the first chapter or something. Create some hype about it.


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## Devor (Jan 18, 2013)

You could put your bestiary and d20 stats online, but I wouldn't in the book.  You should include things that help the story make sense, not things that are superficial.

((edit))

Thinking about it a little more, I could see a bestiary working at the back of some stories, and even the d20 stats in some circumstances.  So let me say _probably_ shouldn't, unless it's somehow right for what you're doing.


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## TheWarlock (Jan 18, 2013)

you could put a picture of a fight


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## WyrdMystic (Jan 18, 2013)

A short story or history as an adendum?


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## Zero Angel (Jan 19, 2013)

Thanks for all the feedback guys! I see that many people objected to the d20 stats which is interesting. I've only seen this in one "book", a manga by Richard A. Knaak I think...

I was considering those because my own RPG system hasn't gotten out of the alpha stage, but I think I will just include the stats that would be done in my own RPG (one of the nice things about an ebook is that I can always change it). 

I've also decided to include the generals/leaders of each army in one of the wars in the book along with the basic unit types of their army as one of the extras.



Ireth said:


> The idea of d20 stats for the characters and creatures in a fantasy book strikes me as odd, unless the book is somehow related to D&D or similar RPGs. I don't think character profiles are really necessary, since the reader would already know a lot about your character simply through the book itself. Maps are fine, and a genealogy could be interesting.


You don't think they're necessary, but would you object to seeing them? I read a lot of manga and they always include things like blood type, birthday, height/weight, likes/dislikes, etc.

I hadn't thought about a genealogy. That doesn't really fit as much with my first book, although there is potential to include stuff like that in other novels planned.



CupofJoe said:


> It is fairly common for Graphic Novels to include character sketches and alternative character designs. They can give a very different "what-if"perspective...
> If you were to included gaming stats you might as well go the extra mile and work them out for GURPS, Warhammer etc as well. but I agree that I wouldn't expect to see them unless there was an obvious tie-in.
> I can't remember the Sci-fi book's title but at the end of one there were "adverts"  for places written about in the story [there was a hotel, Robot repair centre and a gun dealership that I can remember]. It was a fun way to do a little bit of infodumping as well as filling out the world...


I hadn't thought about including the alternate sketches! I usually throw those in a drawer that must never be opened...thanks!

The adverts is a cool idea too. I only have one bona fide store, but maybe something like a travel brochure. Thanks again!


Butterfly said:


> I agree totally with Ireth.
> 
> As an extra I think you should consider an excerpt from your next novel, perhaps the first chapter or something. Create some hype about it.


Thanks for the idea. I see that a lot nowadays too, I'm surprised it slipped my notice. I could probably get away with including some of CH 1 from book 2, or maybe some of the prologue. I'll have to consider the whole spoiler-ness of it all though. 



Devor said:


> Thinking about it a little more, I could see a bestiary working at the back of some stories, and even the d20 stats in some circumstances.  So let me say _probably_ shouldn't, unless it's somehow right for what you're doing.


Thanks. I think yins have all collectively convinced me to not do the d20 stats--instead I'll include my own version. For the bestiary, my book is very action-y (it could probably be directly translated into a video game without really needing to add anything...although I have notes about stuff that happens between scenes or that was glossed over where more monsters could be attacking...so I feel that it makes sense to include the highlights--nothing like what might be seen in a monster manual for D&D, but probably a sketch of the creature and some quick easily digestible facts)



TheWarlock said:


> you could put a picture of a fight


That's not a bad idea. Like an art-picture or a troops/tactics picture?



WyrdMystic said:


> A short story or history as an adendum?


Those are good ideas too. I don't need to do a hardcore history, but there are some things in the book that I've barely scratched the surface of that people might be interested in that I can include at the end as well. 

Thanks everyone!


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## soulless (Jan 19, 2013)

I always love a map in a fantasy or sci-fi book.  An short story would be nice too, or a "deleted scene" if you have anything like that, and the alternate sketches idea is also awesome.


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## Feo Takahari (Jan 19, 2013)

Stupid question, maybe, but would putting d20 stats in a published work be a violation of the copyright of whoever owns the d20 system?


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## Devor (Jan 19, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> Stupid question, maybe, but would putting d20 stats in a published work be a violation of the copyright of whoever owns the d20 system?



You'd have to ask Steerpike, but it's my understanding that the d20 system is open that way.  d20 is the core system that D&D is built on, and they've produced copies of that core system which independent game companies have used to build their own games.  So a d20 monster could be used in a lot of different RPG games by a lot of different companies.


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 20, 2013)

Zero,

Your question seemed to imply that maps as an add-on may be objectionable to some.  I think the opposite is true; some see the lack of maps as objectionable.

You're creating a world from scratch.  Providing a map is almost mandatory for epic fantasy.

I think that some people would also find sketches to be a value add.

As far as the RPG stuff goes, how are you marketing your book?  If it's as part of an RPG, then including stuff for it is good.  If it's not part of an RPG, my opinion is that you shouldn't.  I'm not sure how many other people feel as I do, but I tend to "look down" on books based on RPGs if I'm looking for epic fantasy.


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## WyrdMystic (Jan 21, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Zero,
> 
> Your question seemed to imply that maps as an add-on may be objectionable to some.  I think the opposite is true; some see the lack of maps as objectionable.
> 
> ...



This is a matter of preference. Some people expect maps, some people like not to see maps. The fact that maps are expected is kind of irrelevant, its whether you want to use one or not.

To illustrate, maps to me are like prologues to other people...I skip past them. I'm reading a book not watching a movie. All I want is enough information to spark my imagination. However, if its an RPG then maps are really helpful.


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 21, 2013)

> This is a matter of preference. Some people expect maps, some people like not to see maps. The fact that maps are expected is kind of irrelevant, its whether you want to use one or not.



I have a hard time believing that anyone dislikes seeing a map.  I agree that a lot of people skip over them; I do myself most of the time.  I do not, however, ever think, "Wow, I wish that author hadn't included this information."

For the second part of your statement: You're saying that what a good portion of what your customers expect is irrelevent?  That's not exactly a good way to win over those customers.


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## WyrdMystic (Jan 21, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I have a hard time believing that anyone dislikes seeing a map.  I agree that a lot of people skip over them; I do myself most of the time.  I do not, however, ever think, "Wow, I wish that author hadn't included this information."
> 
> For the second part of your statement: You're saying that what a good portion of what your customers expect is irrelevent?  That's not exactly a good way to win over those customers.



On the first part, okay, my wording was off, but just because someone doesn't think 'I wish they hadn't included a map' doesn't mean that they don't dislike maps and there are people who dislike maps.

I've posted another thread to explore maps but there is a huge difference between expecting to see something and wanting to see something. What people expect is irrelevant. What they want is most definitely not. In fact, you will probably win over more people by doing the unexpected as the expected has already been done to death - expected is boring, dull, dreary, repetative etc. Expected is customer service - Surprise is art.


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 21, 2013)

> I've posted another thread to explore maps but there is a huge difference between expecting to see something and wanting to see something. What people expect is irrelevant. What they want is most definitely not. In fact, you will probably win over more people by doing the unexpected as the expected has already been done to death - expected is boring, dull, dreary, repetative etc. Expected is customer service - Surprise is art.



I responded to your other thread, but, this part, really?

First of all, I'm not trying to create art.  I have no desire to create art.  I want to tell a compelling story.

Are you serious about winning more people over with the unexpected in this context?  When I go into a store, I expect the clerk to tell me "Thank you for your purchase."  When they fail to do so, I don't think, "Wow, how refreshing was it that this store doesn't provide me with the expected customer service.  Let me shop here as much as possible."

Sorry, but not providing an expected service is not likely to win over anyone.


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## PaulineMRoss (Jan 21, 2013)

WyrdMystic said:


> On the first part, okay, my wording was off, but just because someone doesn't think 'I wish they hadn't included a map' doesn't mean that they don't dislike maps and there are people who dislike maps.



And the problem with this is - what, exactly? There are people who dislike maps and there are people who dislike not having a map. You can't please both. If you miss it out, you force everyone to read the book without it. If you put it in, you thrill those who like them and the rest can skip over it.

There are a few cases where the map would give away something vital, but otherwise I can't see any downside to putting one in. At the very least, the author's back-of-the-envelope sketch can be put up on the website. Please? So that the directionally challenged amongst us can see how Our Heroes got from the Enchanted Forest to the Chasm of Darkness.


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## WyrdMystic (Jan 21, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> I responded to your other thread, but, this part, really?
> 
> First of all, I'm not trying to create art.  I have no desire to create art.  I want to tell a compelling story.
> 
> ...



I suppose that's the difference. I'm not looking to provide a service. I'm looking to write a story - as in 'the art of storytelling'. Whether people want to read it or not - that's their choice. but yes, the unexpected generally gets more than the expected these days. Likening a map to customer service didn't work for either of us


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## WyrdMystic (Jan 21, 2013)

PaulineMRoss said:


> And the problem with this is - what, exactly?



Nothing at all. I didn't say it was a problem. I just said what it is.


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 21, 2013)

WyrdMystic said:


> I suppose that's the difference. I'm not looking to provide a service. I'm looking to write a story - as in 'the art of storytelling'. Whether people want to read it or not - that's their choice. but yes, the unexpected generally gets more than the expected these days. Likening a map to customer service didn't work for either of us



It disagree.  I think it fit my point well.

There's no need to consider storytelling an "art," and I do want to provide excellent customer service.  If people are going to pay money for my books, I want to do my darndest to make sure they're satisfied.  I want them to find my writing engaging and hard to put down; I want them to respond emotionally to the text; and I want them to have their expectations met.  Obviously, saying what I want is harder than doing it, but I think I should at least try.

Personally, I hate the attitude: I'm producing art.  Take it or leave it.

Now, it's a different story entirely if you're not selling your work.  If you are, I think you have some degree of responsibility to the people who are paying their hard earned money for what you produced.

I also understand that you can never please everyone.  If, however, there is a reasonable expectation of a service, I think you should at least try.

Maybe this is just me, though.  I also see a lot of "authors" putting complete drivel out there on Amazon and asking people to pay money for it when it hasn't been edited and the quality is crap.  I just couldn't stomach doing such a thing.


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## WyrdMystic (Jan 21, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> It disagree.  I think it fit my point well.
> 
> There's no need to consider storytelling an "art," and I do want to provide excellent customer service.  If people are going to pay money for my books, I want to do my darndest to make sure they're satisfied.  I want them to find my writing engaging and hard to put down; I want them to respond emotionally to the text; and I want them to have their expectations met.  Obviously, saying what I want is harder than doing it, but I think I should at least try.
> 
> ...



I think we're hitting the same mark from different starting points. What I mean by expect is exactly that - I know what to expect = I know exactly what I'm getting, no surprises, no engagement, no thrill, I know how it ends, I know how it starts, I can pretty much guess what happens in the middle. I aim to exceed expectations, as I think you do from what you are saying. From the customer service side, I see that as 'I want a cup of coffee', 'I get a cup of coffee' - no surprises, the way I like it, the way I have it everytime. Stories are more thatn customer service, they are a medium and an artform, whether you like it or not.

In the end, I think we think the same, but the analogies have different meanings to each of us - of course aside from the maps thing 

Hence - I am not looking to provide customer service (what customer service means to me).


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## Steerpike (Jan 21, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> If you are, I think you have some degree of responsibility to the people who are paying their hard earned money for what you produced.



I don't think you have an obligation to tell your story in a particular way. Where would such an obligation spring from? I think you should do the best you can to write the best story in your chosen style and manner of writing, but that's about it.


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## PaulineMRoss (Jan 21, 2013)

> And the problem with this is - what, exactly?





WyrdMystic said:


> Nothing at all. I didn't say it was a problem. I just said what it is.



My bad - I misread you. Sorry.

Carry on, folks.


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## WyrdMystic (Jan 21, 2013)

PaulineMRoss said:


> My bad - I misread you. Sorry.
> 
> Carry on, folks.



Happens a lot to me....think I should spend more time on my word choice, but I just vomit them out.


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## Zero Angel (Jan 21, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> Stupid question, maybe, but would putting d20 stats in a published work be a violation of the copyright of whoever owns the d20 system?


Thanks for the question. d20 is open-source--there is also a 4th edition open-source, although I don't think it is as popular. So not only is it legal to release stats for those systems, you can actually create entire "games" (which are usually more like expansions) that utilize the rules systems. Here's the wikipedia article: d20 System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



BWFoster78 said:


> Zero,
> 
> Your question seemed to imply that maps as an add-on may be objectionable to some.  I think the opposite is true; some see the lack of maps as objectionable.
> 
> ...


There are the rare few that see maps as objectionable, but what I was really referring to was the inclusion of non-professional maps. I am planning on 1-2 professional quality maps, but I'd like to include some of my sketch-quality maps.

I enjoy having maps as a reference, although I will usually skip them until the characters start traveling around. At that point, I reference the front/back covers for the maps. 

I am eventually going to have WotA be multi-platform. I enjoy the novels and short stories I have been writing in the setting, but I'd like to release an RPG (whether tabletop or otherwise), and I've been stretching my artistic talents towards a manga-style comic/graphic novel. I always like getting a handle on the relative powers/attributes of characters beyond what is written in the stories. Even comic books like the Ultimates have a quick "power meter" rating in different attributes for the characters appearing.


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## BWFoster78 (Jan 22, 2013)

> what I was really referring to was the inclusion of non-professional maps. I am planning on 1-2 professional quality maps, but I'd like to include some of my sketch-quality maps.



Can you make the sketch quality maps seem like they were hand drawn by the characters?  Label them something like, Found among Character's relics in Date.


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## Zero Angel (Jan 22, 2013)

BWFoster78 said:


> Can you make the sketch quality maps seem like they were hand drawn by the characters?  Label them something like, Found among Character's relics in Date.



IF I COULD ADD MORE REP TO YOUR POST I WOULD. That's a spectacular idea! This was done to great effect in one of my favorite series, the Deathgate Cycle. Great, great, great idea. Thank you!


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## Telcontar (Jan 23, 2013)

My ability to include artwork is limited by my mediocre artistic skills. I'm going to be coming out with the first Wandering Tale collection soon, and I've been puzzling over what else to include.

Historical Matter - pertaining to some of the larger background events discussed in the stories
A Map - Gotta have that map

Those are the things I know I'll be including. I'm searching for more, though, because I want a person who already owns one or two of the novellas to not worry too much about buying the collection. I'm also thinking about including things like summaries of some of the kingdoms/religions/institutions. I don't want to get too dry though... historical matter is at least still a story. Outlining the general nature and functioning of a culture or religion, not so much.


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## Zero Angel (Jan 23, 2013)

Telcontar said:


> My ability to include artwork is limited by my mediocre artistic skills. I'm going to be coming out with the first Wandering Tale collection soon, and I've been puzzling over what else to include.
> 
> Historical Matter - pertaining to some of the larger background events discussed in the stories
> A Map - Gotta have that map
> ...



A road-so-far intro summarizing events of previous books?


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## Telcontar (Jan 23, 2013)

Ah, yes indeed! I'd planned to include a timeline, as the stories of the Wandering Tale do not take place in pure sequential order - there is some overlap.


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