# Are Elves, Orcs, Etc. Dead?



## Philip Overby (Mar 22, 2013)

Something interesting I've been thinking about recently.  Are traditional fantasy races going the way of the dodo?  Meaning, will one day they cease to be mentioned in the realm of fantasy discussion except for talking about the "good ole days?"

I find that as time goes on, some writers seem to have more and more aversion to having races like elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. (basically Tolkien races) in their stories in favor of more realistic human variants.  George Martin has shown to a wider audience that fantasy isn't all wizards and elves and orcs (although he does have elements very similar).  I think this may cause mainstream fantasy to push more in that direction than the more Tolkien-esque tradition.  The topic is often broached, "Are [insert fantasy race] cliche?"  Why is this? 

I think it's backlash against a long history of these types of high fantasy tales that may have caused readers/writers to not be as interested in stories with these races.  There have been great stories told in this vein, but perhaps more writers are getting influenced by reality and books outside of fantasy than Tolkien, LeGuin, Jordan, and others.  Maybe they think it's "too Dungeons and Dragons."  And while I haven't read a Dragonlance book in some time, I still hold a fond memory for them.  I think when you say "elf" nowadays it immediately evokes either "Santa's helper" or "Legolas look-a-like."  

I find this kind of disconcerting, because I personally think there are tons of new tales to be told with these kind of races in them.  New, fresh tales that don't tread on the same territory over and over again.  And I'm a big proponent of some of the more realistic fantasy out there.  However, I'd still like to see rich, fantasy stories with all variety of exotic and traditional elements in them.  I want wizards shooting lighting from their fingertips and orcs bashing through a phalanx of soldiers. However, I like my grit too.

For me with such a wealth of history and culture to draw from, that we'd get more different types of fantasy creatures/races explored in new ways.  

Do you use traditional fantasy races in your stories?  Why or why not?  

Also, are there any examples of writers you like who are *currently* (notice it is bold, I'm not talking about books written 10 or 20 years ago) using traditional fantasy races in their stories to good effect?  (I personally like Andrezj Sapkowski's portrayal, while a traditional approach, he makes them fresh somehow)


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## Devor (Mar 22, 2013)

I'd rather write about dwarves and orcs than vampires and werewolves.


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## Jabrosky (Mar 22, 2013)

Truth be told, if elves and orcs really are phasing out of fantasy, I won't miss them much. I mean, I won't mind if someone else wants to write about them, but they are not essential to the genre in my opinion. We humans have plenty of physical and cultural diversity all by ourselves anyway.


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Mar 22, 2013)

Oddly, I agree with both Devor and Jabrosky.  I think Homo sapiens provide plenty of conflict and storyline by themselves.  But outside the human realm, I'll take orcs and dwarves any day vs vampires and werewolves.  People talk about wanting 'grimdark' to end (and I sorta agree), but the whole vampire/werewolf thing, especially with romance novel overtones, is just killing me.  In the bricks & mortar stores, this stuff is crowding out multiple feet of shelf space that could be devoted to books I'd actually want to read.  Would this sub-genre just die already?

Note:  none of the above intended to offend those who like the sub-genre and I speak as a man who actually liked the Twilight movies.  That's right, I said it.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 23, 2013)

I too think there is enough to pull from humans as well, but a lot of the races are iconic in fantasy.  I personally enjoy fantasy with loads of monsters and races, just because to me it feels more like I'm reading something in the fantasy realm and not just Earth with magic and swords.  I like contemporary fantasy myself (I've written some modern fantasy stories) so I'm not totally against worlds with only humans in them.  Just I'd like to see people try new and exciting things with fantasy races sometimes.  

With vampires and werewolves (don't want to get on that tangent really), but when they're done well, they're interesting.  If someone can make a man made of toilet paper interesting, I'll read it.


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## TheokinsJ (Mar 23, 2013)

What you have to understand is that fantasy races have existed for thousands of years. Take elves and dwarves for example, they were in Viking and German mythology long before Tolkien every wrote the Lord of the Rings. Fantasy races are not bad, but I believe that they are becoming clichÃ© because so many writers saw Tolkien's idea and thought "wow that's cool! I'm gonna have elves in my story". Basically people are overusing them so much that they have become clichÃ©.
Tolkien wasn't the first writer to use Elves and Dwarves either, but the way he portrayed them in his books was new and different.
If today people said to me "In my story there are elves and Dwarves" I would look at them and say "Is your book a rip off of the Lord of the Rings?". I think elves and dwarves are overused in fantasy now, whereas when Tolkien used them, they were fresh and not many writers had written about them before. This doesn't mean that they will always remain clichÃ©, when people stop using them in fantasy for a while, it will come 'back in fashion' eventually.
This isn't to say you can't use races in fantasy, it's just you have to do new and different things to them, and perhaps create your own, rather than make a rip off of The Lord of the Rings.


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## Shockley (Mar 23, 2013)

I don't think there's anything that ever goes away completely - much like the fantasy genre is the recycled myth of the past, elves and orcs and dwarves will continue to be relevent in their own way.


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## Ophiucha (Mar 23, 2013)

I doubt they'll ever die out for good, but there are certainly fewer of them in modern fantasy than there used to be. Probably because people are afraid to change them _too _much, but also don't want to be stuck with the same dwarves that Tolkien was using. I think that is the biggest problem they face as a fantasy device; the different races of humanoids isn't a problem, but the fact that dwarves are as much associated with their shortness as they are their mines and their beards limits how much they can be used. Not every story really calls for a _mining _race. People subvert and twist them, but I am struggling to think of examples of stories where dwarves weren't associated with mine and ore in some way. In more modern stories, they are mechanical masters, but ultimately still tied to the same craft. Gunsmiths instead of blacksmiths, perhaps.

Humans, obviously, don't have that problem because we're fully aware of the diversity of human potential. You can have six nations run by humans and have them all be completely unlike each other; see also: the real world. But how many stories can you name that had two dwarf nations? And of those, which ones had significant cultural and societal differences between them? It's limiting. Elves have a bit more diversity, presumably because people like them more, but there are still traits that never seem to die no matter how dark or how modern the setting. I've read _urban _fantasy with elves that still managed to make them archers.


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## Steerpike (Mar 23, 2013)

I doubt it. Look how many D&D and other related traditional fantasy books are still on the shelves and selling well. Just because certain other fantasy novels are at the top of the genre right now doesn't mean the ones with traditional races are dead, and I doubt they'll ever fade away.


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## johnsonjoshuak (Mar 23, 2013)

I use both Elves and Orcs in my world, but definitely not in the traditional sense. While there are some "tree-dwelling" Elves in my world, they are a subset that are hardly mentioned. The main group of Elves are a seafaring confederated nation. They build swift ships and are often contracted to move messages and goods quickly.

Orcs in my world are more like native americans. 3 tribes decided to go the way of humans and elves and built cities and eventually a republic that included humans and elves. This republic later fell, but the 3 cities maintained and are now a major source of mercenary legions. The rest of the Orcs continue their hunter/gatherer existence on the plains. 

Could I have just used humans in place of these two races? Yes. But I felt there was just something different about using these traditional races but in a different way than everyone is used to.


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## psychotick (Mar 23, 2013)

Hi,

I certainly hope that elves aren't going the way of the dodo. They're a mainstay of my writing and now that I think about it, I've never written a character based on a dodo!

But like the others I do wish romantic teenage girl obsessed vampires would die a savage death!

Cheers, Greg.


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## PaulineMRoss (Mar 23, 2013)

My heart always sinks when words like elf, dwarf or orc appear in a book's blurb. It might be the most original take ever on those races, but (as others have said) it's difficult to stray very far from Tolkien's template. And if the races in a book are unoriginal, maybe the plot is too. 

The trouble is, I think some authors use them because it's easier than inventing new races. You can casually mention elves in passing, and the reader knows pretty much what you mean (pointy ears, live in trees, archers, etc), so you don't have to describe them in detail. It's shorthand, so an author can get straight down to the plot. And throw in little twist (hey, my elves live underground/can fly/are green and ugly! Look, I'm subverting the trope!)... It's much the same when the setting is the tired old medieval feudal system (yawn...). 

For those who are still enchanted by elves - that's absolutely fine, and there are still readers out there who'll buy those books. Authors should always write what they want. But personally I like my fantasy to surprise me and elves, dwarves and orcs don't, much.

ETA: On the other hand, dragons are still totally cool


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## Feo Takahari (Mar 23, 2013)

As I see it, if you're gonna give me nonhumans, give me nonhumans. Don't give me humans who're short and have beards and then try to tell me they're a different species. (Of course, trying to change things around can backfire, but that doesn't mean it's a lost cause--the _Artemis Fowl_ series, for instance, has a very unique take on dwarves.)


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## Philip Overby (Mar 23, 2013)

PaulineMRoss said:


> My heart always sinks when words like elf, dwarf or orc appear in a book's blurb. It might be the most original take ever on those races, but (as others have said) it's difficult to stray very far from Tolkien's template. And if the races in a book are unoriginal, maybe the plot is too.
> 
> The trouble is, I think some authors use them because it's easier than inventing new races. You can casually mention elves in passing, and the reader knows pretty much what you mean (pointy ears, live in trees, archers, etc), so you don't have to describe them in detail. It's shorthand, so an author can get straight down to the plot. And throw in little twist (hey, my elves live underground/can fly/are green and ugly! Look, I'm subverting the trope!)... It's much the same when the setting is the tired old medieval feudal system (yawn...).
> 
> ...



It's interesting that you say dragons are still cool.  I love dragons myself, but they're as overplayed and cliche in some fantasy novels as elves or dwarves are.  If I read a  blurb that says, "The dragons are returning..." I may go..."Oh boy."  That's because dragons being gone from the world and coming back has been done numerous times.  Some writers do that better than others though, so I shouldn't pre-judge a book based on that.  

I'd love to see writers invent more fantasy races myself, but generally they're going to be versions of some other culture's mythology anyway.  Such as an author may say "I wrote a story about creatures called Taragi, that live in the mountains and have the faces of men, but wings like a bird."  Well, those are basically tengu.  

I think if people admit "Yeah, these creatures are tengu" or "These creatures are elves" then to me it's better than trying to subvert tropes.  It would be like having a dog in a story and calling them "marmutts" or something.  

My point is, there are still ways to use elves and dwarves in stories without necessarily subverting tropes and still make them interesting, the same way you can still make Medieval fantasy interesting.  My personal feelings are that writers should of course write what they want, and readers should read what they want.  But I get the feeling that with people feeling saturated with "grimdark" (the unflattering name for dark, realistic fantasy) that eventually writers are going to want to re-explore what was popular before.  Like any form of entertainment, it's cyclical.   

I personally like darker, realistic stories, but I like high fantasy with elves and wizards too.


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## Chessie (Mar 23, 2013)

I think humanoid races will always have a place in fantasy...they pretty much are fantasy. I don't think they are overused like vampires though. I enjoy a good werewolf tale but vampires these days make me gag. Anyway, I hope elves stay around forever because there is so much to them. They can be just as diverse as humans. I still like to read about them in fantasy worlds where they are either the only race or along with humans. Fantasy books that include humans, dwarves, orcs, elves, etc just turns into a more modern version of Tolkien for me. Yeah, its kind of unfair he stomped the grounds for modern fantasy writers but come on...worlds with only humans are just as interesting.


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## Feo Takahari (Mar 23, 2013)

Um, stupid question, maybe, but what does "grimdark" have to do with not having orcs and elves? _Berserk_ has elves but is blatantly grimdark, and . . . Actually, I can't think of a fantasy setting that lacks orcs and elves but is as idealistic as _Berserk_ is cynical. Are there elves in _Atelier_? (Alternately, can _The Dying Earth_ be called optimistic?)


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## Philip Overby (Mar 23, 2013)

I think this current crop of writing that deals with realism is being called "grimdark."  I'm only giving it the category others have said.  Technically, this term birthed from a description of Warhammer being "a grim universe with dark...etc. etc."  So yeah, I think elves, orcs, etc. can be in darker settings for sure.  However, this term grimdark is being used for people like Mark Lawrence, R. Scott Bakker, Richard K. Morgan, Joe Abercrombie, and others, who don't really have elves and orcs in them, as far as I know anyway.  They're not in the vein of traditional, Tolkien fantasy, is what I mean.

I wasn't really including video games and manga into this equation because Japanese fantasy is completely different than Western fantasy, which I think most people are talking about here.  Honestly, Japanese don't really seem much into Western style fantasy with the exception of Berserk, Vinland Saga, and Record of Lodoss War.  There are others of course, but Japanese tend to have their own thing going, which honestly, I wouldn't mind rubbing off more on Western writers to a certain degree.

Dying Earth birthed its own sub-genre, called...Dying Earth, so it sort of goes in a different direction.  Most of the worlds described in the so-called grimdark worlds aren't dystopian, they're just dark and dangerous.


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## Devor (Mar 23, 2013)

I've said in another thread about these races that I think there's value to using familiar elements because it's easier for the reader to process.  A book with elves and dwarves can have as many original fantasy elements as a book without them because elves and dwarves are established, and don't require "work" on the part of the reader to understand them.  They let you have a world with more going on it.

However, the issue I want to raise is how often these races are portrayed as caricatures of what they're meant to be.  In Tolkein, an elf could feel immortal, immersed in magic.  You often lose a lot of that in the cheap knockoffs.  So I'm not going to talk about how you need to do something "original" with elves and dwarves and orcs.  Instead, I'm just going to say that you shouldn't use them if you cannot capture that sense of wonder and genuineness which came with the originals.


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## Chris Conley (Mar 23, 2013)

I would definitely read more stories about undead elves or undead orcs... 
Wait!  That's not what this topic is about?  My bad.  

They do seem less common these days, which is fine.  I'd rather have them be left out than be forced into a story for the sake of including them.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 23, 2013)

That's a good point, Devor.  That's what I was trying to say, one way or another.  I don't think there is a need to reinvent these races, but just use them in a way that isn't a caricature like you said.  I would hope more writers would not be afraid to delve into these races more without feeling their being unoriginal or cliche.  

One point that gets brought up a lot is that people don't like these "new" vampires.  Vampires have been around for centuries though and each culture has their own version of them.  If a writer takes elements of the vampire that used to make them terrifying, it's a more interesting approach to me.  Anne Rice romanticized vampires to the point where I think most people identify them more as being handsome/pretty than vicious, blood-sucking killers.  It worked for Anne Rice and, however way anyone wants to spin it, it worked for Stephanie Meyer.  But looking back at myth, writers can still capture that magic if they wanted to.

OK, don't want to go off on a vampire tangent...


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## Androxine Vortex (Mar 23, 2013)

I am looking forward to whatever "new race" will become a highlight in fantasy. Yes orcs and elves did stand out but now they are fading away. I wonder what will replace them or even if something will? Keep in mind that while fantasy was around for a long time, Tolkien revolutionized fantasy so I'm not surprised so many authors adopted his creations. Fantasy has really come a long way so I'm not sure if there well even be a replacement per say.


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## Androxine Vortex (Mar 23, 2013)

And this isn't why it was so successful but the Elder Scrolls series stood out because they not only had orcs and elves but they invented races like Argonians and Khajiit. Sorry about the double post I can't go back and edit on my phone.


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## Chilari (Mar 23, 2013)

The problem with new invented races is that they're generally tied in some way - even if only conceptually - to one creation or creator. In some cases they might be covered by legal issues, especially in games, but aside from that, there's the sense that they belong to the creator(s) and using them is unoriginal or even plagarism. So a new sentient species would have to be one from mythology, and that's been well plumbed already.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 23, 2013)

I've always been pretty interested in _yokai_, or Japanese mythological creatures.  I wrote a story not too long ago about a kappa that I thought was fun.  Some people know kappa, but it's not universally recognizable I don't think.  I've also become interested in monsters from different cultures.  I stated researching monsters for a project I was planning called something like "Monster Hunting Around the World."  It was going to feature stories based in fantasy worlds, far future, and contemporary settings but would involved different types of hunters trying to find different kinds of creatures.  It's a project I still hope to do something with eventually as it'll be interesting to see how it turns out.

There are a wealth of different kinds of races in myths to draw from, so I hope some writers will get some good stuff going from them.  If we all recall, the Japanese ghost story became so popular for a while that there was a trend of those type of movies for some time.  However, for Japanese, it's just a normal ghost story.  It can sometimes depend on cultural unfamiliarity with a race or monster that can make it interesting.


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## Penpilot (Mar 23, 2013)

They'll never die, nothing ever does. Stuff like this is like the tide, it rises and falls, and each time it brings something new to shore. These traditional races may not be in vogue right now, but down the road some author is going to say, "You know what? I'm tired of this grim stuff in fantasy. Where are the elves? Where are my dragons? Screw this. Bring on the Orcs, elves, and let's splash some more bright colors around into this mix."


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## Jess A (Mar 24, 2013)

I like to write stories about faerie-type creatures in a historical setting, because it gives me a lot to play with while researching topics I am interested in. Some are utterly monstrous, some are more civilised and cultured - and while some are based on real faerie myths, others are quite made-up. I've also drawn a little from Chinese mythology and other types of mythology. It's all relevant to my plot as well. 

Humans are certainly strongly relevant to the story. Most of the main characters are human.


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## The Unseemly (Mar 24, 2013)

Will they ever die? I think Penpilot got it right. 

In many of the "newer" fantasy books I've read, there's always an elf or orc or dwarf or some other "Tolkienised" creature. I think it really depends on on how the concepts of the figures are approached. For example, I've enjoyed elves in some books better than in others. Then again, I've enjoyed completely made-from-scratch creatures, _ala_ Andzej Sapkowski. Why? The concepts can be shoddy cliches that are/were (I hope) predominant amongst fantasy writing and that took away all the enjoyment. I was just reading the same old boring thing time and time again. But then I came across other books were there was a new, fresh, approach to the "cliched" races of fantasy.


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## Jessquoi (Mar 24, 2013)

Personally I hope that these races don't die out. They are part of fantasy culture and I feel nostalgic when I think about them. Stories about elves, fairies and orcs have been told for ages so why should they disappear now because Tolkien got so popular? If writers refused to use elves or orcs it would be like refusing to ever tell kids about wizards or magic. These themes are part of our cultural psyche, why deem them dead?


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## Steerpike (Mar 24, 2013)

They won't.


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## Anders Ã„mting (Mar 24, 2013)

Elves and orcs are storytelling devices; tools for telling the story you want to tell. I say use them if you have use for them, but don't put elves in your fantasy book just for the sake of having elves.


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## glutton (Mar 24, 2013)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> Elves and orcs are storytelling devices; tools for telling the story you want to tell. I say use them if you have use for them, but don't put elves in your fantasy book just for the sake of having elves.



I have a male elf tell the heroine in one of my stories how she's all brute force with no grace to drive home what a crude bruiser she is.


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## Saigonnus (Mar 24, 2013)

Ophiucha said:


> Humans, obviously, don't have that problem because we're fully aware of the diversity of human potential. You can have six nations run by humans and have them all be completely unlike each other; see also: the real world. But how many stories can you name that had two dwarf nations? And of those, which ones had significant cultural and societal differences between them? It's limiting. Elves have a bit more diversity, presumably because people like them more, but there are still traits that never seem to die no matter how dark or how modern the setting. I've read _urban _fantasy with elves that still managed to make them archers.



One could easily assume that because humans have such great diversity, that dwarves or elves would too. I think authors who refuse to change elves or dwarves are short-changing themselves on the possibilities of things that are possible. If you stick too closely to the traditional manifestation of them you are almost certain to imitate or rip-off Tolkien's LOTR in some fashion. 

Whose to say a story about ONLY gnomes or dwarves couldn't be good if done properly. Of course I think a few types of stereotypes are overdone; elves being aloof and magical, or a dying race, dwarves as miners/craftsmen living in the mountains or underground.


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## Alex Beecroft (Mar 24, 2013)

I think many people have done elves badly, and that has devalued them. But they are as big a part of Western cultural heritage as knights, swords, dragons, King Arthur and all those other things that still resonate with our imaginative past. (I say 'our' as a Briton. Perhaps I should say 'they're part of _my_ deep history, so they'll always have more magic for me than things that are just made up off the top of some author's head.')


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## Mockingjay Ignis (Mar 24, 2013)

Phil the Drill said:


> Something interesting I've been thinking about recently.  Are traditional fantasy races going the way of the dodo?  Meaning, will one day they cease to be mentioned in the realm of fantasy discussion except for talking about the "good ole days?"
> 
> I find that as time goes on, some writers seem to have more and more aversion to having races like elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. (basically Tolkien races) in their stories in favor of more realistic human variants.  George Martin has shown to a wider audience that fantasy isn't all wizards and elves and orcs (although he does have elements very similar).  I think this may cause mainstream fantasy to push more in that direction than the more Tolkien-esque tradition.  The topic is often broached, "Are [insert fantasy race] cliche?"  Why is this?
> 
> ...



I don't write about traditional races. Why? Because it's not me. Don't get me wrong, i think traditional fantasy is far from dead, but people are starting to actually evolve the fantasy genre. More and more people are realizing that by being inspired heavily by Tolkien (Including me) is that we have to put our own special blend that Sir Tolkien made so popular. The only thing close to any traditional race that i have created our my race of Eckrin, who have MAJOR differences to Elves even though they look kinda similar. 

Don't worry about the loss of classic magic and big beats fighting soldiers, theres plenty of menacing beats inspired by trolls who plow through armies in my stories too. Continuing the classic fantasy with new fantasy. Keeping it real fantasy


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## Steerpike (Mar 24, 2013)

Just write what speaks to you. Traditional isn't dead. I could walk into Barnes & Noble today and walk out with 20 different titles currently on the shelves that use traditional elf/orc/dwarf type races, and mostly in a traditional manner. They sell. The new stuff that moves away from these also sells. It's all good.


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## Philip Overby (Mar 24, 2013)

Yeah, that's what I was trying to originally say in my first post.  New stuff that avoids fantasy races is good and stuff that includes them are also good.  There is still a lot of writing that uses these kind of things, but they're not mentioned as much at the moment, so sometimes it feels like there's none out there be produced _right now._  I'm sure that's false, but I try to keep my finger on the heartbeat of the fantasy genre as much as I can and there just isn't much mention of these kind of traditional races in the most talked about writing of the moment.  It's kind of like when Japanese ghost stories became really popular.  People were still making slasher movies, but no one paid much attention to them.


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## Steerpike (Mar 24, 2013)

Yeah, the new "sexy" stuff gets the press. But I was at B&N the other day and there's still a ton of the traditional stuff on the shelves, so it must be doing well enough. And even some of the new-style stuff that at first glance doesn't appear to have traditional races, ends up on closer inspection having races with different names that share characteristics of the traditional ones


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## Ophiucha (Mar 24, 2013)

Yeah, I've seen a lot of things that use traditional fantasy creatures and then just change the names. _The Name of the Wind_ has 'draccus', which is a large lizard that I believe breathes fire. Trow are trolls. I think zombies are in there, too.


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## Jess A (Mar 25, 2013)

Ophiucha said:


> Humans, obviously, don't have that problem because we're fully aware of the diversity of human potential. You can have six nations run by humans and have them all be completely unlike each other; see also: the real world. But how many stories can you name that had two dwarf nations? And of those, which ones had significant cultural and societal differences between them? It's limiting. Elves have a bit more diversity, presumably because people like them more, but there are still traits that never seem to die no matter how dark or how modern the setting. I've read _urban _fantasy with elves that still managed to make them archers.



Yes. This is a topic in itself.

Many of my other races are in various clans and differ in many ways. It works for the plot and it's fun.


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## Jabrosky (Apr 3, 2013)

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I want to raise the question of why elves, dwarves, and their ilk even persist in the fantasy genre up to today. Is it really because these races have widespread fanbases, as if most fantasy fans would rather not read anything else? I submit the alternative explanation that the reason Tolkien's races and tropes are so commonly adopted is precisely because our culture holds him in high esteem as the quintessential fantasy writer, the guy every other writer in the genre should strive to emulate. If you use Tolkien to define fantasy, of course people will single him out as a source for ideas. If there's any real demand to take elves et al out of fantasy, perhaps we should knock Tolkien off his pedestal.


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## Steerpike (Apr 3, 2013)

A lot of people like that kind of fantasy. There are plenty of alternatives. There is no real reason that I can see to knock one or the other down. People should read what they like, and writers should write what they like.


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## Alex Beecroft (Apr 4, 2013)

Seriously, I like elves. I would rather read elves in fantasy than almost anything else. (As long as they're done well.) And it's not as though Tolkien invented them. He got them from earlier literature and mythology. Yes, I could do without more bad imitations of Tolkien's elves from people who think it's all about being pompous and having pointy ears, but I write elves all the time and it's not because I'm trying to be Tolkien, it's because I find them magical in a way I do with no other fantasy creature at all.

By all means, don't write them if you don't like them. But don't try to take them away from me, because I love them. (Dwarves, trolls etc, I can take or leave. I think giants are probably due a makeover, and goblins are useful cannon fodder but not interesting to me in themselves.) But elves? You might as easily try to take the magic away from gods.


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## druidofwinter (Apr 4, 2013)

well my WIP has both elves and dwarves and i think its great! i do know what you mean though, brandon sanderson, one of my favorite authors, has nether elves or dwarves, simply diferent types of humans. elves and dwarves can be revived,i think, if they are written in a different way. no more elves in forests and dwarves under ground stuff. also i think they should spread out . humans do not all live together in one place. and nether would elves/dwarves.


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## Philip Overby (Apr 4, 2013)

It's weird, I'm playing Witcher 2 at the moment and that game takes a pretty interesting approach to elves, dwarves, and the like.  They aren't much different than their traditional roles honestly.  But the way they're portrayed in the game (and Sapkowski's books) just feel fresh.  Dwarves are still the kind of traditional fighting/drinking sort, but with a little harder edge (they use pretty foul language.)  And some elves are integrated into human populations, but there's a group called the Scoia'tael which are kind of like guerrilla fighters.  In both instances the races are still presented in a traditional light, but the way they're written just makes them stand out more.  So honestly, I think if the right writer uses these races in their fiction, they can turn out pretty remarkably.


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## Steerpike (Apr 4, 2013)

Yeah the idea that the genre has to make some shift doesn't work for me. Orcs, elves, dwarves etc. are popular because people like them. So long as there is a variety to read, which there is in this regard, who cares whether someone else might enjoy books different from what they enjoy?


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## Anders Ã„mting (Apr 4, 2013)

glutton said:


> I have a male elf tell the heroine in one of my stories how she's all brute force with no grace to drive home what a crude bruiser she is.



Surely there are brutal, graceless elves as well? 

See, I think this is the crux - it's not that elves and dwarves and orcs become too common, but rather that they ended up kinda stereotyped.



Ophiucha said:


> Yeah, I've seen a lot of things that use traditional fantasy creatures and then just change the names. _The Name of the Wind_ has 'draccus', which is a large lizard that I believe breathes fire. Trow are trolls. I think zombies are in there, too.



You must forgive me, but that just reminds of of this Penny Arcade strip:

Penny Arcade - Fine Distinctions



Jabrosky said:


> Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I want to raise the question of why elves, dwarves, and their ilk even persist in the fantasy genre up to today. Is it really because these races have widespread fanbases, as if most fantasy fans would rather not read anything else? I submit the alternative explanation that the reason Tolkien's races and tropes are so commonly adopted is precisely because our culture holds him in high esteem as the quintessential fantasy writer, the guy every other writer in the genre should strive to emulate. If you use Tolkien to define fantasy, of course people will single him out as a source for ideas. If there's any real demand to take elves et al out of fantasy, perhaps we should knock Tolkien off his pedestal.



Well, Tolkien just kinda made too strong and impression. He didn't _mean _to define the genre the way he did, he just wanted to create a mythological world for his made up languages. But then people started looking at his books and use them as a template for how fantasy should be written rather than go about it the same way he did - creating a magical world as a way of exploring the possibilities of their imagination.

Though, thinking about it, I'm not sure Tolkien really deserves the blame for this. I think I'll rather blame Gary Gygax. 

If you look closely, Tolkien isn't _quite _the stereotypical High Fantasy formula; LotR is more like the prototype that the formula was based on. It seems more likely to me that it was Dungeons & Dragons that really influenced the early fantasy nerd's idea of what fantasy was - elves and dwarves and dragons - rather than Tolkien. They, along with people like Terry Brooks, made it into proper popculture. 

Note that RPG campaigns - being bound rather heavily by rules and archetypes - do tend to encourage formulaic storytelling: "Your party meet up at a shady inn, and a man in a dark cloak approaches..." etc. I think this may have "trained" fantasy fans to think of fantasy in a rather confined sort of way, and some of them grew up to be fantasy writers themselves, so here we are.


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## Saigonnus (Apr 4, 2013)

Alex Beecroft said:


> By all means, don't write them if you don't like them. But don't try to take them away from me, because I love them. (Dwarves, trolls etc, I can take or leave. I think giants are probably due a makeover, and goblins are useful cannon fodder but not interesting to me in themselves.) But elves? You might as easily try to take the magic away from gods.



I think done properly ANY creature can be interesting. I think the most fun I had with a gaming campaign was playing a Kobold Shaman. Sure he was relatively weak on the melee side of things, but the ability to summon creatures and heal was very valuable to the party as a whole. Elves in the Tolkienesque depiction is a bit overdone in my opinion (aloof, magical, immortal etc.) and I would enjoy a fresher and more creative depiction myself. Another stereotype I find a bit overdone is the whole dwarves being miners/craftsmen a living in caves/underground.   

I certainly agree that the stereotypical depiction of Goblins are best used for cannon fodder, but whose to say you can't soup them up a bit and make them interesting. I imagine a culture of goblins that live more like humans, perhaps in settlements carved directly from the rockface of a canyon. They would have a strong religious presence within the culture like shaman/ medicine men. Perhaps they learn combat from a young age like the spartans and use magically reinforced obsidian and flint weapons to great effect.


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## Alex Beecroft (Apr 5, 2013)

Saigonnus said:


> I think done properly ANY creature can be interesting. I think the most fun I had with a gaming campaign was playing a Kobold Shaman. Sure he was relatively weak on the melee side of things, but the ability to summon creatures and heal was very valuable to the party as a whole. Elves in the Tolkienesque depiction is a bit overdone in my opinion (aloof, magical, immortal etc.) and I would enjoy a fresher and more creative depiction myself. Another stereotype I find a bit overdone is the whole dwarves being miners/craftsmen a living in caves/underground.
> 
> I certainly agree that the stereotypical depiction of Goblins are best used for cannon fodder, but whose to say you can't soup them up a bit and make them interesting.



I agree with all of that, with the caveat that although any creature can be interesting in the right author's hands, it doesn't mean that every author ought to have to write any creature that doesn't speak to them. If you're flat out not interested in something, no one ought to make you feel like you _have to_ write it just because.

To me, elves are the epitome of the Trickster type - they're ambivalent and dangerous and highly attractive, and you can't know when you're dealing with them whether you'll come out of the encounter with unearthly blessings or utterly ruined. They're also the epitome of the creative force - which is why they're associated in mythology with Freyr, the god of fertility. So it's not like you can even safely say that you won't deal with them - because if you don't, you doom yourself to barrenness and stagnation. They're too hot to handle, but you've got to handle it nevertheless. (Like most magic, I guess. That's why shamans and priests get respect, because they have to handle this stuff on behalf of everyone on a daily basis.)

It does frustrate me that people get their information on elves second hand from Tolkien, because his take on them is actually quite a personal and different take on them, compared with the folklore.

I'm reading a really interesting fanfiction at the moment, which has Tony Stark going to study with the dwarves from the Mighty Thor universe. The premise of that was just... yes. Why didn't I see it before? Obviously Tony Stark is a dwarf, and the dwarves are whatever Tony Stark is (and I'm not referring to his height)  Transforming the world through technology? Something like that.


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## Philip Overby (Apr 5, 2013)

For me, the reason Tolkien's version is so popular is almost like a Pavlovian effect.  If you held up pictures of different types of elves, you'd probably get different results.  For instance like these:








*Elf 1*







*Elf 2*







*Elf 3*


Elf 1 or Legolas would probably be most identified by fans of Tolkien or fantasy in general of what an elf is.  Long blond hair, bow and arrow, graceful, etc.  This is the version of elves that fantasy readers would most immediately point at if you said "Which picture do you most identify elves with."

Elf 2, or a Christmas elf, would probably be most non-fantasy fans' version of what an elf is.  In fact, if you look up elf on a search engine, you'll find this elf is the most frequent.  

Elf 3 or Drizzt (a dark elf) would probably only be able to be identified with people who have more than a surface knowledge of what an elf is.  Some non-fantasy fans or people who haven't read about elves other than Tolkien's version of them may not even know dark elves exist in fiction.

So in actuality, the mainstream would probably most identify elves with Elf 2.


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## LadyofKaos (Apr 5, 2013)

I have various races of elves in my story - golden, silver, dark, wood, etc. They are as varied as humans in looks, manners, and character. And they aren't archers. They don't show up until the second book but they are an integral part of the worlds I've created. During the course of writing, I've tried to introduce races outside of human - for me it adds more of the fantastical to the tale.


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## Alex Beecroft (Apr 6, 2013)

Phil the Drill said:


> Elf 1 or Legolas would probably be most identified by fans of Tolkien or fantasy in general of what an elf is.  Long blond hair, bow and arrow, graceful, etc.  This is the version of elves that fantasy readers would most immediately point at if you said "Which picture do you most identify elves with."
> 
> Elf 2, or a Christmas elf, would probably be most non-fantasy fans' version of what an elf is.  In fact, if you look up elf on a search engine, you'll find this elf is the most frequent.
> 
> ...



This is very true, and if exposure to Elf #1 brings more people into the fantasy genre then it helps explain why there are so many (new writers') books in which the stereotype perpetuates itself. They haven't had time yet to read around the subject. But that just means that the books of those who have had time to find their own personal take on the matter are more valuable, for broadening and blowing those new fans' minds.

I'm more of an elf #4 sort myself


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## Feo Takahari (Apr 6, 2013)

Ah yes, the old-school fair folk. I think Terry Pratchett summed it up best:



> Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
> Elves are marvelous. They cause marvels.
> Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
> Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
> ...



Truth be told, I'm not fond of this style of elf either. They tend to go one of two ways:

1): Totally incomprehensible. They might as well be a hurricane or an earthquake, so any reader interest must come from the protagonists instead.

2): Repeatedly described as alien, but written as essentially human--pretty and sociopathic, true, but displaying no personality traits that certain humans don't display, and demonstrating no reason why all the human characters look up to them. (Particularly irritating if elves killing humans is treated as normal and natural, but humans killing elves is treated as evil.)


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## Abbas-Al-Morim (Apr 6, 2013)

Don't like elves that much myself. They're almost universally portrayed as "too beautiful, graceful, strong and magical". There are plenty of writers who stray from those clichÃ©s but a lot of writers are stuck in those. I'm more of a dwarf person I guess. Dwarves aren't perfect. They are greedy, they smell and they are rude. But perfect elves are just so damn boring. Whenever I read a story about a noble elf trying to save his noble civilization from the angry and evil Orcs, I stop reading. 

I do like elves if they have some small sides to them. Or perhaps they're all vicious killers or whatever. I like the dark elves and the wood elves from Warhammer - but the high elves are clichÃ© and I don't like those.


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## glutton (Apr 6, 2013)

Abbas-Al-Morim said:


> They're almost universally portrayed as "too beautiful, graceful, strong and magical".



This reminds me of a joke that's made about 'Asian' people in one of my stories (I'm Asian and it's meant to be humorous so hopefully I can get away with this...) - an 'eastern' warrior who fights in the wuxia/wire-fu style taunts the (western brawler) heroine about her being strong and slow, and too slow for him... to which she retorts something like, 'what does it say about your people if our women are strong and slow compared to your men?' To be fair she is beastly strong of course, but more on topic I like it if elves are portrayed as similarly frailer compared to more physically robust humans. What I mentioned before about the elf's speech to the heroine in another story could hint at that I suppose...


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## glutton (Apr 6, 2013)

Anders Ã„mting said:


> Surely there are brutal, graceless elves as well?
> 
> See, I think this is the crux - it's not that elves and dwarves and orcs become too common, but rather that they ended up kinda stereotyped.



The stereotype in this case was used purposely to contrast against the mighty bar brawling brutish one.


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## Alex Beecroft (Apr 7, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> Ah yes, the old-school fair folk. I think Terry Pratchett summed it up best:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Loathe though I am to say anything bad about Sir Pterry, I do think he went too far in the opposite direction. If you knew they were always bad, that would be much easier to deal with than when you don't know one way or the other. To me, it's the uncertainty which is the key with elves. Which is why they're so hard to write, of course, because it's all but impossible to consistently write ambivalent without eventually coming down on one side or the other of the good/evil spectrum.

It's the same problem you get with drawing properly alien aliens, isn't it? You can't make them too alien without (heh) alienating them from your reader and even yourself - ending up with something that doesn't make sense. And you can't really make them properly alien because you've only got a human mind to do it with.

But that's what makes it such fun to try


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## wordwalker (Apr 7, 2013)

Then again, maybe the "capricious, Tam Lin-grabbing" school of elves aren't supposed to be as alien as they look.

I've always thought that type of elf legend was taking on a particular purpose: like a lot of folk tales are ways to talk about fears of storms, disease, night animals, and so on, some elf stories were partly about a village's _nobles_. Glittering, nearly-invincible creatures that ride by and, on the slightest whim, develop either a grudge or a fascination with a peasant and then drag him into who-knows-what? Even the concept of spending a night in Elfdom that's a century in real-time sounds a lot like how a villager-turned-palace-servant might feel on coming home and realizing how differently her old friends looked at the world, and now at her.

Just one more thing in the elven mix.


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## Feo Takahari (Apr 7, 2013)

wordwalker said:


> Then again, maybe the "capricious, Tam Lin-grabbing" school of elves aren't supposed to be as alien as they look.
> 
> I've always thought that type of elf legend was taking on a particular purpose: like a lot of folk tales are ways to talk about fears of storms, disease, night animals, and so on, some elf stories were partly about a village's _nobles_. Glittering, nearly-invincible creatures that ride by and, on the slightest whim, develop either a grudge or a fascination with a peasant and then drag him into who-knows-what? Even the concept of spending a night in Elfdom that's a century in real-time sounds a lot like how a villager-turned-palace-servant might feel on coming home and realizing how differently her old friends looked at the world, and now at her.
> 
> Just one more thing in the elven mix.



Wow. That is going to be _really_ useful.


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## wordwalker (Apr 7, 2013)

Hmm, now you've got me curious...


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## SeverinR (Apr 10, 2013)

Different species of humans can be cliche'.
Humans can easily be cliche'.

Its not that you write about the pointy earred elf or Dog faced orc(no offense if you are one of these), its that you don't make them unique.
Eclipse took the blood suckers and made them different, love them, hate them, but I doubt you could say they were cliche vampires.  The writer took a romantic image, added a star crossed love story, threw in glitter to make them appeal to the girls, and sold alot of books. (girls love glitter)

The darker races could be the native americans, they could be the race that bigots love to hate.  The evil that makes the world fear.  Something more then/less then human.

HUmans are evil enough, good enough, and different enough, but there is always room to have a fantasy world with other humanoids.
No matter what you call them the species that is your story decides if they are cliche or interesting.

Ask this from you title, Are *humans* dead?  Humans have had more stories written abot them then any other race or species. If they still are interesting, other species can always find a way to be fresh.


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## Karin Rita Gastreich (Apr 10, 2013)

wordwalker said:


> Glittering, nearly-invincible creatures that ride by and, on the slightest whim, develop either a grudge or a fascination with a peasant and then drag him into who-knows-what? Even the concept of spending a night in Elfdom that's a century in real-time sounds a lot like how a villager-turned-palace-servant might feel on coming home and realizing how differently her old friends looked at the world, and now at her.
> 
> Just one more thing in the elven mix.



Interesting comparison.

Aren't fairies supposed to do kind of the same thing -- the dangers of getting caught in a fairy ring and not coming back out until after a century or two of wanton revelry?

I don't think Elves or Orcs are dead, but human cultures have a rich collection of magical creatures from which to draw for use in fantasy.  Elves have yet to appear in my own stories, but I have something called Guendes, based on the Central American _duende_, which is something of a cross between a fairy and a gnome.  

I've since learned that the Spaniards took their duendes all over the world, and they have evolved to be very different creatures depending on whether you meet them in Spain, Central America, South America, the Philippines, or Guam. . .

The most original treatment I've seen of Elves in recent fantasy fiction is Melissa Mickelsen's NIGHTINGALE.  Here we have an elf woman who is also an assassin, and a very interesting world of constant warfare and conflict between human and elfin cultures.  I really liked it, and did not have the sense at all that I was reading a recycled Tolkien trope.  So yes, I think there is still much to be done with elves, orcs, and the like. All it takes is a fresh perspective and a little imagination.

Also -- just for the record -- not all girls like glitter.


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## wordwalker (Apr 10, 2013)

Karin Rita Gastreich said:


> Also -- just for the record -- not all girls like glitter.



Don't be silly. The elflord over there says you like it, so smile and nod.


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## Ayaka Di'rutia (Apr 11, 2013)

The only "traditional" race I have in my current fantasy are elves, and they're not much like Tolkien's elves.  Firstly they're not immortal, although they can live around half a millenium.  They're not characterized as being a goodly race or a bad race; the race as a whole contains both kinds of people.  I've also created a branch in this elven race that look Native American, unlike many of their white-skinned kin.  They're strong and have pointed ears and thus a keen sense of hearing, and also possess a graceful stride and a good balance sense.

Other than that, I haven't used dwarves or orcs.  I believe they're OVER-used in books and other fantasy media like video games.


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## Nihal (Apr 11, 2013)

I don't think dwarves and orcs were more overused than elves—so, no reason to avoid them more than elves; sometimes you even get to see elves but not dwarves and orcs!

I think, however, that they were _badly_ used. Orcs often fill the role of the mindless, disposable, evil army. Dwarves are those funny, grumpy short fellows who are amazing crafters and sometimes are terribly strong. It's a "good" race but few authors, or games, love them, just use them to fill a vacant role. You don't see orcs and dwarves being reworked in something new as often you see elves.


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## Steerpike (Apr 11, 2013)

Yeah, I think elves are used more than dwarves and orcs as well. However, I don't really believe in "overuse." They're used well, or used badly, as Nihal says. A good writer can make effective use of any of these, and a bad one will muck up a completely original race.


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## Honey_Badger (Apr 11, 2013)

i like orcs and elves


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## Mockingjay Ignis (Apr 13, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> Yeah, I think elves are used more than dwarves and orcs as well. However, I don't really believe in "overuse." They're used well, or used badly, as Nihal says. A good writer can make effective use of any of these, and a bad one will muck up a completely original race.



Wait.... So you're saying making up original races is a bad thing? I'm confused...


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## Steerpike (Apr 13, 2013)

Mockingjay Ignis said:


> Wait.... So you're saying making up original races is a bad thing? I'm confused...



No. Nor is it bad to use established ones. It's all in the execution.


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## Mockingjay Ignis (Apr 13, 2013)

Steerpike said:


> No. Nor is it bad to use established ones. It's all in the execution.



Oh i see now! I misinterpreted it at first haha


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## advait98 (Apr 13, 2013)

I had something a little like elves initially in my story, but gradually as the story went on, I scrapped them, and made something entirely new in their place. I had also committed a gaffe that I suppose a lot of people would admonish- calling them 'Ken', that is, calling them by a different name. Glad I got rid of them now.

 I genuinely hate all stories which have orcs in them. They are, to me, the most Tolkienesque of the lot, and I am liable to put such a book down. 

Before, I liked books that had these kind of creatures in them, but now, they just annoy me. It's either something new or just human for me now. But still, nothing can kill dragons.

Execution does matter, but for people who don't care for the book first-off, I don't think it would be of consequence. So, my decision, I have to say, these classic races are dying, slowly maybe, very slowly, but they're dying nonetheless.

This is my opinion, and... you know the rest.


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## eodauthor (Apr 14, 2013)

Look, there are always arguments for or against traditional or mythic characters in whatever genre you happen to be writing about. I mean, how many detective stories are there where the protagonist is a knock-off of Sam Spade or Mike Hammer? The same can be said about fantasy characters: elves, trolls, dwarves, etc. Yes, I agree that Tolkien set the bar rather high, but consider what Terry Brooks has done for the genre since 1977 with his Shannara series. He took the Tolkien-esque primer and gave it a fresh look.

There is nothing wrong with rebooting the same races as others have done for years; the key to a successful story is not so much whether you utilize a familiar antagonist or protagonist, it is in the content of the story: is the plot worthy? Are the characters believable? Is there sufficient conflict to keep the reader's attention for 500 pages? Can the author weave the story to a credible and satisfactory ending?

So, will there always be elves and orcs? I hope so. I wouldn't want to imagine a world where they did not exist.


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## Steerpike (Apr 15, 2013)

eodauthor said:


> So, will there always be elves and orcs? I hope so. I wouldn't want to imagine a world where they did not exist.



Reports of their death are greatly exaggerated. I wouldn't worry.


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## Jess A (Apr 15, 2013)

eodauthor said:


> So, will there always be elves and orcs? I hope so. I wouldn't want to imagine a world where they did not exist.





Steerpike said:


> Reports of their death are greatly exaggerated. I wouldn't worry.



This would make a great spoof fantasy. The last of the elves and orcs are dying out in their own magical worlds because nobody is writing about them. A heroic writer, an elf and an orc must work together to save the dying races.


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## Feo Takahari (Apr 15, 2013)

Jess A said:


> This would make a great spoof fantasy. The last of the elves and orcs are dying out in their own magical worlds because nobody is writing about them. A heroic writer, an elf and an orc must work together to save the dying races.



Are you sure the orcs would want to live, to keep being slaughtered over and over? (I'm thinking of _The Order of the Stick_, in which the goblins are willing to threaten the destruction of the universe to remove themselves from their position as walking targets for would-be heroes.)


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## Jess A (Apr 15, 2013)

Feo Takahari said:


> Are you sure the orcs would want to live, to keep being slaughtered over and over? (I'm thinking of _The Order of the Stick_, in which the goblins are willing to threaten the destruction of the universe to remove themselves from their position as walking targets for would-be heroes.)



Hehe  But maybe the orcs reform themselves? And become the heroes?


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## Jabrosky (Apr 15, 2013)

Jess A said:


> Hehe  But maybe the orcs reform themselves? And become the heroes?


Heroic orcs are exactly the kind of orcs I am willing to tolerate. We need more monstrous noble races.


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## Philip Overby (Apr 15, 2013)

Stan Nicholls has a book called *Orcs* where they are the main characters.  I'm not sure if they're heroic though.


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## skip.knox (Apr 15, 2013)

>Are Elves, Orcs, Etc. Dead?

Several of mine are!


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## Mockingjay Ignis (Apr 17, 2013)

skip.knox said:


> >Are Elves, Orcs, Etc. Dead?
> 
> Several of mine are!



I see what you did there.


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## Steerpike (Apr 17, 2013)

That is not dead, which can eternal lie...


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