# Making these ideas work



## bumblefish97 (Apr 14, 2018)

I got a lot of themes I want in my world but I'm at a loss for how to make them all work together. I've accepted that my world is essentially a kitchen sink but still I'd like to make it so they work and don't just look thrown in there. Anyone have any ideas for me?

The themes are: Dark Fantasy, Gothic Horror, Some Steampunk, Minor Dieselpunk technology, Little bit of electricity something like in rhune, a few of the standard fantasy races, demons, eldritch gods etc, "evil" fair folk, "regular" fantasy deities (though mostly uncaring/distant/in decline).


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## Yora (Apr 14, 2018)

Sounds like regular Dark Fantasy with some added technology for me. Don't see how that would be much of a problem.


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## bumblefish97 (Apr 14, 2018)

Yora said:


> Sounds like regular Dark Fantasy with some added technology for me. Don't see how that would be much of a problem.


Some of it just seems like it won't blend well, like having gods, demons, and angels but then also the lovecraftian type gods. Also having all that technology and keeping the sort of gothic horror vibe


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## Yora (Apr 14, 2018)

If you think they don't belong together, you have to make a selection. You can't really get a believable world when you throw everything into it that you think would be cool. You have to go and pick those elements that you feel are important to the story, and leave out those things that don't really contribute to or support the cental concept of the overall work.

Demons might be cool, but if they have no real place in the story, it's best to just leave them out entirely.


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## bumblefish97 (Apr 14, 2018)

Yora said:


> If you think they don't belong together, you have to make a selection. You can't really get a believable world when you throw everything into it that you think would be cool. You have to go and pick those elements that you feel are important to the story, and leave out those things that don't really contribute to or support the cental concept of the overall work.
> 
> Demons might be cool, but if they have no real place in the story, it's best to just leave them out entirely.


Essentially the demons are there because a big part of it will be things like black magic, demonic possession, and demon lords just generally influencing things, but at the same time I like the idea of lovecraftian elder gods somewhere in the deep places of the world. The struggle is deciding how they might work in the same setting and can't find many examples apart from Azeroth, but then everything is just kind of thrown into that


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## Yora (Apr 14, 2018)

My own solution to this problem was to make them the same thing. A single type of entities that combine traits found in classical fantasy demons and eldritch abominations.
Nyarlathotep is an eldtritch abomination that appears in the shape of humans to manipulate them for his evil ends. That's basically classic demon description.


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## bumblefish97 (Apr 14, 2018)

Yora said:


> My own solution to this problem was to make them the same thing. A single type of entities that combine traits found in classical fantasy demons and eldritch abominations.
> Nyarlathotep is an eldtritch abomination that appears in the shape of humans to manipulate them for his evil ends. That's basically classic demon description.


Something like that could work. As for the rest of the themes though, what would be the best ways to make like technology fit in with a standard dark fantasy world so that swords and stuff are still a thing even with their being firearms, and armour would occasionally still be used?


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## Yora (Apr 14, 2018)

Muskets first appeared in the 1500s, the same time when the most advanced forms of steel plate armor were being made. Cannons even go back in Europe to the 1300s, many decades before the classic type of full plate armor appeared.

I suggest looking at how things looked in Europe in the 16th century, like weapons, castles, cities, and clothing. It's still very "medieval" in looks, while a lot of things we consider "modern" are already widespread.


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## bumblefish97 (Apr 14, 2018)

Yora said:


> Muskets first appeared in the 1500s, the same time when the most advanced forms of steel plate armor were being made. Cannons even go back in Europe to the 1300s, many decades before the classic type of full plate armor appeared.
> 
> I suggest looking at how things looked in Europe in the 16th century, like weapons, castles, cities, and clothing. It's still very "medieval" in looks, while a lot of things we consider "modern" are already widespread.


Yeah I'd looked into all that, though my world is like distinctly a Victorian aesthetic with revolvers etc


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## Yora (Apr 14, 2018)

Well, that's even much later. That's the period of the American civil war where swords and armor have long fallen out of fashion almost entirely.
Don't think about how to add these things to a medieval fantasy setting. Simply take your 19th century style setting and start thinking about way to make it dark.


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## bumblefish97 (Apr 14, 2018)

Yora said:


> Well, that's even much later. That's the period of the American civil war where swords and armor have long fallen out of fashion almost entirely.
> Don't think about how to add these things to a medieval fantasy setting. Simply take your 19th century style setting and start thinking about way to make it dark.


Yeah they'd be a bit dated, though with some tweaks and reasoning I feel I can at least fit things like sabers and rapiers into it. Potentially even a few other weapons. Armour would still be tricky but things I've thought about are like making it more common among those who hunt monsters or in some crime syndicates rather than being common everywhere and still used in military.


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## psychotick (Apr 14, 2018)

Hi,

My best idea if you really need all of this, would be to do some sort of parallel worlds story. Pick your main world and then travel tothe others. Or alternatively summon bits of other worlds to your world. Gods though, are always a problem. One idea might be to have two realms / worlds at war. Say the steampunk realm versus the woodsy elf realm.

Cheers, Greg.


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## bumblefish97 (Apr 14, 2018)

psychotick said:


> Hi,
> 
> My best idea if you really need all of this, would be to do some sort of parallel worlds story. Pick your main world and then travel tothe others. Or alternatively summon bits of other worlds to your world. Gods though, are always a problem. One idea might be to have two realms / worlds at war. Say the steampunk realm versus the woodsy elf realm.
> 
> Cheers, Greg.


That also could work, sort of like the planes in Rift and other fantasy settings?


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## Orc Knight (Apr 14, 2018)

I think this can be cooked up into a good setting (sorry, today may be a cooking metaphor day for me). Using Greg's idea, the Fey's neck of the woods leads to a different dimension while the Eldritch usually come from somewhere else too. The Standard Fantasy Races either come and stick around or are exiled from the Fey lands. The demons can co-operate with either or just run around on their own from their own dimension or make war on the other two. The main themes of Gothic Horror and the Punks can blend together with what you want, as they seem to show up together along with the Dark Fantasy. How they come together is probably going to have to be a bit measured to find the right mix.

And the big thing is going to be how this world sets into the story or the story sets in the setting. Experimenting and writing a few shorts for yourself in it might work too.


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## skip.knox (Apr 14, 2018)

Nothing works until you make it work. You can have all that stuff in the background. But if you try to put all that into a single story, that won't work. It's not that they don't fit together, it's that there's too much. As Orc Knight says, write a few stories. Stories with specific characters in a specific situation. Let each story illuminate some part of that world. Have one with just elves, for example. Another with eldritch gods. Maybe tie the stories together, maybe don't. 

So long  as you're only world building, then everything will seem both possible and impossible, depending on the weather.   You'll find objections to every solution. 

Also, why do you have all this? Why not simply reduce the scope?


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## bumblefish97 (Apr 14, 2018)

skip.knox said:


> Nothing works until you make it work. You can have all that stuff in the background. But if you try to put all that into a single story, that won't work. It's not that they don't fit together, it's that there's too much. As Orc Knight says, write a few stories. Stories with specific characters in a specific situation. Let each story illuminate some part of that world. Have one with just elves, for example. Another with eldritch gods. Maybe tie the stories together, maybe don't.
> 
> So long  as you're only world building, then everything will seem both possible and impossible, depending on the weather.   You'll find objections to every solution.
> 
> Also, why do you have all this? Why not simply reduce the scope?


I'd started the first novel in my world but then I realised part way in that I didn't really have enough worldbuilding done to falll back on, not much was fleshed out enough,


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## skip.knox (Apr 14, 2018)

bumblefish97 said:


> I'd started the first novel in my world but then I realised part way in that I didn't really have enough worldbuilding done to falll back on, not much was fleshed out enough,



I get that, I really do. Every time I write a new story I am faced with stuff I need to invent. And then Iar invent some things that don't work and have to go back and re-invent.

But I do it in the context of my work-in-progress. That is, maybe I have to decide on drow architecture, or the history of the Hollow World since Atlantis, or why the duergar invade at this particular time. I try to invent as little as possible--only what the current story needs, and only enough to tell the story. Inevitably I invent more, but all those notes go in my WorldReference project. Anything not directly used in a story goes there, even if it's contradictory or ill-conceived. Since it's not in a published story, it can all be revved and retro'ed. 

I do general world building sometimes. I get ideas. They come to me ... in the night ... [cue wolf howl]. All the ideas go into WorldReference, too. There are no ugly children in there. But I only have to do this for one world. I cannot imagine having to invent a whole world for every story!


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## bumblefish97 (Apr 15, 2018)

skip.knox said:


> I get that, I really do. Every time I write a new story I am faced with stuff I need to invent. And then Iar invent some things that don't work and have to go back and re-invent.
> 
> But I do it in the context of my work-in-progress. That is, maybe I have to decide on drow architecture, or the history of the Hollow World since Atlantis, or why the duergar invade at this particular time. I try to invent as little as possible--only what the current story needs, and only enough to tell the story. Inevitably I invent more, but all those notes go in my WorldReference project. Anything not directly used in a story goes there, even if it's contradictory or ill-conceived. Since it's not in a published story, it can all be revved and retro'ed.
> 
> I do general world building sometimes. I get ideas. They come to me ... in the night ... [cue wolf howl]. All the ideas go into WorldReference, too. There are no ugly children in there. But I only have to do this for one world. I cannot imagine having to invent a whole world for every story!


Yeah my biggest issue has been so I'll be writing and it's in full flow and I get to a point where whatever character it is goes somewhere and I've not named that place or really thought about what they'd see on the way there.

And yeah I think having a lot of worlds would be tricky. Because there's multiple different stories I wanna write I've worked it out so instead of making a whole load of new settings each time, all my fantasy stories will be part of one setting, all my Sci Fi ones part of another, and Horror ones part of the 3rd so I only have to create 3 settings that I can have multiple stories in.


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## SergeiMeranov (Apr 16, 2018)

Skip.knox hit this on the head.  I'd say perhaps you're thinking about it in only the partially correct way.  Worldbuilding should serve the story, not vice versa.  If there's a story purpose behind all this other stuff then there's nothing that would prevent it from working.  J.K. Rowling made magic work in modern day England.  Stargate meshed a variety of deities together as aliens in Stargate SG-1.  Anything CAN work, but I think the better question is what does your story need and why?


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## bumblefish97 (Apr 17, 2018)

SergeiMeranov said:


> Skip.knox hit this on the head.  I'd say perhaps you're thinking about it in only the partially correct way.  Worldbuilding should serve the story, not vice versa.  If there's a story purpose behind all this other stuff then there's nothing that would prevent it from working.  J.K. Rowling made magic work in modern day England.  Stargate meshed a variety of deities together as aliens in Stargate SG-1.  Anything CAN work, but I think the better question is what does your story need and why?


It's because of the world being for multiple stories and games that I'm having to build it more fully before I can really write anything. Saying that though, I have tied the demons now sort of to the Elder Gods, but the idea is still in its early stages.


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## skip.knox (Apr 17, 2018)

FWIW, bumblefish97, I'm going on the opposite tack. I did not start writing with a completely blank slate, but nearly so. I had the advantage of using real Earth as the setting, but that brings its own challenges. But I had nothing developed concerning the nature or society of elves, dwarves, orcs or anything else (except humans) and I wrote my first story. I didn't even have a magic system and my first story was about the discovery of a key element of magic. But I dodged by having the discovery go up in smoke at the end of the story. Its official discovery came later, outside the story.

In my second story, I have goblins invade the Roman Empire. Where did the goblins come from? I didn't know. What were goblins? I didn't know, save that I pictured a horde, so that began dictating certain aspects. By the time I was done, I had a very clear picture about goblins. I also happened upon the notion that magic in Altearth develops over time. Those who use it don't know how it works, or have mistaken ideas about it. 

Then I started deliberately writing stories in order to explore some fantasy aspect of Altearth. The one that's soon coming out has a gnome as a major secondary character. I had a couple of core ideas about gnomes, but that was all. As I wrote, I was able to fill in details. I was also found a corollary to the process. 

Characters in stories leave the ordinary to enter into the extraordinary. In order to show this properly, I had to develop a fair amount of what daily life would look like for gnomes, and how others perceived gnomes in their ordinary routine. Only then would I know how my gnome (and those around her) would behave when thrown into unusual circumstances. The ordinary becomes like negative space that defines the extraordinary. 

Anyway, it is indeed possible to put story before world building. In truth it's a dialectic. Do both at the same time. But world building without having a specific story in mind, is never going to be more than a pencil sketch. With a story in mind, it is the sketch on canvas that will become a painting.


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## bumblefish97 (Apr 18, 2018)

skip.knox said:


> FWIW, bumblefish97, I'm going on the opposite tack. I did not start writing with a completely blank slate, but nearly so. I had the advantage of using real Earth as the setting, but that brings its own challenges. But I had nothing developed concerning the nature or society of elves, dwarves, orcs or anything else (except humans) and I wrote my first story. I didn't even have a magic system and my first story was about the discovery of a key element of magic. But I dodged by having the discovery go up in smoke at the end of the story. Its official discovery came later, outside the story.
> 
> In my second story, I have goblins invade the Roman Empire. Where did the goblins come from? I didn't know. What were goblins? I didn't know, save that I pictured a horde, so that began dictating certain aspects. By the time I was done, I had a very clear picture about goblins. I also happened upon the notion that magic in Altearth develops over time. Those who use it don't know how it works, or have mistaken ideas about it.
> 
> ...


Yeah I can see it'd be tricky without a clear story in mind. One issue I've got though is like because as well as novels I sort of have an open world RPG or maybe a series planned, I've found wordbuilding for that is sometimes different to novels, I gotta find how to cater to both


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## Horus (Apr 18, 2018)

I'll echo the sentiment that you can have world-building take place before creating a story board, or even going too deeply into what kind of story you'll be telling. This is especially easy when you're creating a world for a D20 session, as you can't predict how PC's are going to screw with the world. You have to work around setting the player base will want, then tell a compelling story within by placing hooks around where you think the player's interest lay. Or at least that's the case in a free-form adventure. Even then, brace for murder hobos.

As for your situation, I'd say you don't have anything that is too hard to blend. Lovecraft's stories took place in a fairly modern setting. So technology isn't too much of a problem for the eldritch. Same goes with demons, angels, and other races. Urban fantasy, and Victorian fantasy are already feature some of those themes mentioned. You just need to craft the world around what it's like to be the commoner, the adventurer, the ruler, or the demon. Examine each side, then make changes accordingly for balance. As for gods... they're better left aloof and distant. Their hand being felt or seen is fine, but physical gods are best left for climatic battles/world ending scenarios. Honestly, I can think of a dozen videogames/series/books that use a similar set of themes.


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## Nascent (Apr 18, 2018)

bumblefish97 said:


> Essentially the demons are there because a big part of it will be things like black magic, demonic possession, and demon lords just generally influencing things, but at the same time I like the idea of lovecraftian elder gods somewhere in the deep places of the world. The struggle is deciding how they might work in the same setting and can't find many examples apart from Azeroth, but then everything is just kind of thrown into that


Perhaps the issue is trying to use established things rather than working around it, but that might be what I'm reading into it.
You can have gods, angels and demons as well as lovecraftian type gods by just saying the old gods slept and new ones took their place.
Gods, devils, angels, demons etc. all of them could just be latest parts of older races that lived under elder gods but even to them elder gods are myths.
Horror, dark fantasy and everything else could be worked in under that. Trick is not just going balls to the wall without explanation.


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## skip.knox (Apr 18, 2018)

Sorry guys, I sometimes forget that not everyone here is eye-deep in writing novels. There are indeed other kinds of story telling and the methods will differ. Open-world RPG storytelling fascinates me, but in the way photography does--it looks interesting but I'm not going to dip any toes in it.


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## bumblefish97 (Apr 18, 2018)

Nascent said:


> Perhaps the issue is trying to use established things rather than working around it, but that might be what I'm reading into it.
> You can have gods, angels and demons as well as lovecraftian type gods by just saying the old gods slept and new ones took their place.
> Gods, devils, angels, demons etc. all of them could just be latest parts of older races that lived under elder gods but even to them elder gods are myths.
> Horror, dark fantasy and everything else could be worked in under that. Trick is not just going balls to the wall without explanation.


So far what I have as a solution is I've not fully decided where the gods came from or the nature deities/animal spirits/whatever I'll have. But as far as the demons anyway, this is a rough sort of draft so far but whoever created the gods was at odds with the old gods who to taunt him/her as much as combat him/her, created the first demon either a mockery of the gods or by corrupting one of them, who in turn corrupted a few of the others (not decided which ones because so far there's 9 "Demon Kings" but I also think I might have this first demon that came before the kings). That's all I have so far but by the world's modern-ish timeline, the elder gods are buried deep and sleeping (for the most part), the gods are sort of in decline, the nature ones help very few people because they don't like the industrial state of the world, and the demons/dark gods are gaining more power and followers, either from those who turn to them for new powers or who turn to them because they see no other way.


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## Demesnedenoir (Apr 18, 2018)

Armor vs firearms... it isn’t that they couldn’t make armor capable of repelling primitive bullets, it’s that it was prohibitively expensive. Fantasy worlds offer up a multitude of possibilties for why technologies crossover. You just have to find what works for your world.


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## bumblefish97 (Apr 18, 2018)

Demesnedenoir said:


> Armor vs firearms... it isn’t that they couldn’t make armor capable of repelling primitive bullets, it’s that it was prohibitively expensive. Fantasy worlds offer up a multitude of possibilties for why technologies crossover. You just have to find what works for your world.


I could potentially make magic armour, though I want to avoid having magic as a catch all solution in my world. But I think a bit of magic armour wouldn't be too bad, one of my inspirations after all is the Elder Scrolls games, and its a thing there.


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## Orc Knight (Apr 18, 2018)

You can certainly limit the magic. Take a certain amount of time, effort and ingredients/resources to do a spell or alchemy and the like. Even some effort in casting spells and the like or working runes into weapons and armor. An oath to fuel the magic for every smiths hammer blow.


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## bumblefish97 (Apr 18, 2018)

Orc Knight said:


> You can certainly limit the magic. Take a certain amount of time, effort and ingredients/resources to do a spell or alchemy and the like. Even some effort in casting spells and the like or working runes into weapons and armor. An oath to fuel the magic for every smiths hammer blow.


Yeah, my magic system is something I need to work on tbh, still deciding whether it's something people are born with or can learn. So far I'm thinking of it being a bit of both depending on the type of magic. Also to fit the setting, magic will have a lot of dangers tied to the use of it as well as the fact even the non banned forms of magic in some places will get inquisitors on your case waiting for you to slip up or trying to find ways they can set you up to look like you're doing something wrong so they can burn people at the stake


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## Demesnedenoir (Apr 18, 2018)

bumblefish97 said:


> I could potentially make magic armour, though I want to avoid having magic as a catch all solution in my world. But I think a bit of magic armour wouldn't be too bad, one of my inspirations after all is the Elder Scrolls games, and its a thing there.


No need to make the armor magic to stop a bullet, or mitigate its damage, you just need a method to make its production more common/cost efficient. There are so many potential reasons for armor and old fashioned weapons to exist in a fantasy world it's kind of nuts. Why do people carry knives now? They are quiet and don't run out of bullets. Also recall, all a bayonet does is turn a rifle into a thrusting sword. If you creatures that are "hardened targets" bullets might be crap, the flexible bladed foil that can slip through body-armor joints at odd angles might be best. If the creature attacks via surprise and gets in tight... guns are damned near worthless. A demons armor might absorb energy well, but not resist a slash. So many ways to work it.


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## bumblefish97 (Apr 18, 2018)

Demesnedenoir said:


> No need to make the armor magic to stop a bullet, or mitigate its damage, you just need a method to make its production more common/cost efficient. There are so many potential reasons for armor and old fashioned weapons to exist in a fantasy world it's kind of nuts. Why do people carry knives now? They are quiet and don't run out of bullets. Also recall, all a bayonet does is turn a rifle into a thrusting sword. If you creatures that are "hardened targets" bullets might be crap, the flexible bladed foil that can slip through body-armor joints at odd angles might be best. If the creature attacks via surprise and gets in tight... guns are damned near worthless. A demons armor might absorb energy well, but not resist a slash. So many ways to work it.


Yeah for the creatures I figured, while you might be able to gun down an enemy soldier, a fast werewolf sprinting at you in a zig zag quicker than your aim can keep up with will be another issue, making armour and close quarters fighting necessary. And yeah the quiet stealth thing part of the reason crossbows are still in use in my world.


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## Orc Knight (Apr 18, 2018)

And here's where I'll drop in again, taking a bit from my own world building. Humanity got the short stick and hold on through sheer tenacity, guile and insanity (to the rest of the world). A bit of alchemy and magical enhancements and some training and then you've got an anti-werewolf unit in the military. Maybe a Hulk out potion to toe to toe with the biggies that show up or others for a Captain America style. Though you mentioned a price, so they may have to be careful with such things, but if it can be tested and refined, it could make for a decent way to fight back.


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## bumblefish97 (Apr 18, 2018)

Orc Knight said:


> And here's where I'll drop in again, taking a bit from my own world building. Humanity got the short stick and hold on through sheer tenacity, guile and insanity (to the rest of the world). A bit of alchemy and magical enhancements and some training and then you've got an anti-werewolf unit in the military. Maybe a Hulk out potion to toe to toe with the biggies that show up or others for a Captain America style. Though you mentioned a price, so they may have to be careful with such things, but if it can be tested and refined, it could make for a decent way to fight back.


Something like makes sense. Werewolves are another thing I've not fully fleshed out other than I've taken the Underworld route of werewolves and lycans being related but different things, also the fact the original werewolves were created by one of the demon kings in response to a rival demon king creating vampires


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## psychotick (Apr 19, 2018)

Hi Bumble,

You don't have to make your armour bullet proof. Instead you can limit your firearms to muzzle loaders. That means whoever goes up against them has one shot only. Alternatively you can add magic to your armour, but if you do that you also have to add it to your weapons, so it sort of cancels out. Also you can include multi-barrel pistols / rifles allowing multiple shots - changing the scenarios again. And the easiest way to limit magic is that only some people have it and what they can do with it isn't all powerful. Since I've moved in a more steampunk direction I've been tinkering with all these ideas.

Cheers, Greg.


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## bumblefish97 (Apr 19, 2018)

psychotick said:


> Hi Bumble,
> 
> You don't have to make your armour bullet proof. Instead you can limit your firearms to muzzle loaders. That means whoever goes up against them has one shot only. Alternatively you can add magic to your armour, but if you do that you also have to add it to your weapons, so it sort of cancels out. Also you can include multi-barrel pistols / rifles allowing multiple shots - changing the scenarios again. And the easiest way to limit magic is that only some people have it and what they can do with it isn't all powerful. Since I've moved in a more steampunk direction I've been tinkering with all these ideas.
> 
> Cheers, Greg.


Yeah I'll figure out a balance between the firearms and armour. As for limiting the magic, yeah I wanna avoid it being too powerful and like not have spells for literally everything. Another thing with the magic I was thinking about yesterday though, if my inquisitors don't like/aren't allowed to use magic, how could they have magic-proof gear without enchanting it? That's something I'm stuck on.


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## psychotick (Apr 19, 2018)

Hi Bumble,

The gear isn't magic. It's divine. Created by priests and enchanted in the name of their gods.

Cheers, Greg.


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## bumblefish97 (Apr 19, 2018)

psychotick said:


> Hi Bumble,
> 
> The gear isn't magic. It's divine. Created by priests and enchanted in the name of their gods.
> 
> Cheers, Greg.


That'd work


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